2009-01-01: 00:00:05 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 00:00:21 wow that was rough 00:00:24 stupid time.gov missed the leap second 00:00:26 yes 00:00:27 agh 00:00:30 i missed it 00:00:31 fuck my LIFE 00:00:34 I think it stayed on 23:59:59 for two seconds 00:00:36 :'((((((((( 00:00:39 eklw;rlewjkljfksldffd 00:00:39 I know, I was refreshing really quickly 00:00:45 that site's clearly badly written 00:00:47 ais523: it has a java applet. 00:00:51 ais523, ntp.lth.se had 59 for 2 seconds 00:00:53 I think 00:00:54 also, it's the official site. 00:01:02 ehird: but I don't have javascript on 00:01:07 java 00:01:08 javascript 00:01:11 lern2differenciate 00:01:17 I refreshed more than once a second for the relevant period, and it never said 23:59:60 00:01:20 ehird: I know the difference 00:01:31 but if I don't even turn JS on, what's the chance I run Java? 00:01:58 gah, I had all the computery time-keeping devices all loadde 00:02:01 and I bloody missed it. 00:02:56 ehird, look there will be another leap second in a few years 00:03:03 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | WE SURVIVED THE LEAP SECOND AND ALL WE GOT WAS ... WAIT, WHERE IS MY T-SHIRT? | HAPPY NEW YEAR ICELAND. 00:03:06 which I'll miss. again. 00:03:41 oerjan, haha 00:04:05 Is there a leap second tonight? 00:04:10 Oh, wait a minute. 00:04:16 Warrigal, there *was* 00:04:22 like 4 minutes ago 00:04:27 Darn, that means I missed it. 00:04:34 also 00:04:42 why didn't anyone say: "Happy leap second" 00:04:43 :( 00:04:58 I'll have to wait until... not many years from now. 00:04:59 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 00:05:19 it was that bad. just be glad you missed it. 00:05:28 AnMaster: because time.gov missed it 00:05:35 hah 00:08:30 -!- Mony has joined. 00:16:37 re 00:16:50 mi 00:18:51 do 00:19:17 sol 00:19:19 fa 00:20:39 la 00:20:53 ti 00:21:01 x 00:21:02 i win 00:21:08 heh 00:21:11 I win 00:21:12 -!- moozilla has joined. 00:22:36 moozilla: mooz_? 00:29:18 beware of the mööse for they are böse 00:32:31 oerjan, is that your final answer? 00:32:36 You may want to consider "si" instead. 00:33:06 mais non 00:33:39 Despite the superficial similarity, I think it was established that moozilla and mooz are completely separate people. 00:33:44 o 00:33:46 heyyy fizzie 00:33:50 start using lowercase again 00:33:51 :\ 00:34:03 atm you're one of two fizzies, one was in 2002/2003 00:34:09 and this one is in now 00:34:13 fizzie: do they look similar except for glasses? 00:35:11 also, happy new year 00:36:06 Happy new; although this time zone had it quite a while ago. 00:36:15 I don't think I'll go back to lowercase, though. 00:36:27 Happy today! 00:36:31 fizzie: DO IT 00:36:32 but it's all the rage 00:38:46 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:38:52 -!- moozilla has joined. 00:40:02 ehird, 00:40:04 /var/log/kern.log:Jan 1 00:59:59 tux [903182.515007] Clock: inserting leap second 23:59:60 UTC 00:40:06 :P 00:40:11 00:59:59 00:40:16 QED 00:40:25 well 00:40:32 how did the kernel know how to do it? 00:40:37 it inserted the leap second at 00:59:59 so it was there at 00:59:60 00:40:39 and ntpd tells it 00:40:39 does it contain a database or something 00:40:43 bto 00:40:46 ntp 00:40:46 also 00:40:50 just tried it locally 00:40:52 ais523, oh? a special system call or? 00:40:52 leap second just delays 00:40:56 ehird, ah 00:41:00 AnMaster: no, just ntp 00:41:03 well 00:41:04 Jan 1 00:00:00 dell kernel: [ 9654.690507] Clock: inserting leap second 23:59:60 UTC 00:41:05 it just delays the clock 00:41:07 it was in kern.log 00:41:08 ais523: yes but 00:41:09 there's something wrong about the timing there... 00:41:10 which means kernel source 00:41:12 it doesn't actually hit 23:59:60 00:41:16 it emulates the leap second 00:41:17 = broken 00:41:20 time _repeats_ 00:41:21 seriously 00:41:23 yes, POSIX leap seconds are broken 00:41:24 it actually repeats the second 00:41:27 well 00:41:29 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:41:31 it was in the kernel log 00:41:34 -!- metazilla has joined. 00:41:40 AnMaster: and? 00:41:42 the message did not come from ntp, but from the kernel 00:41:46 What Unix time were the leap second and its twin sister? 00:41:55 Warrigal, no idea 00:41:58 AnMaster: the kernel would never do leap seconds if ntp didn't tell it to. 00:42:05 Hm. 00:42:09 as they're set arbitrarily by humans 00:42:18 ehird, yes but what system call... 00:42:36 shrug 00:43:03 there is a system call in there somewhere, almost certainly 00:43:03 The twin sister is 00:00:00 on January 1, 2009. So 2009 - 1970 plus leap years, times 86400. 00:43:05 getdate(3p): 00:43:05 %S Seconds [00,60]. The range goes to 60 (rather than stopping at 59) to allow positive leap seconds to be expressed. Since leap 00:43:06 seconds cannot be predicted by any algorithm, leap second data must come from some external source. 00:43:08 interesting 00:43:10 so 00:43:15 that is a posix man page 00:43:16 AnMaster: yes, but it's not actually used. 00:43:21 also 00:43:23 heh 00:43:24 that is not posix 00:43:25 almost certainly 00:44:00 hrm. 00:44:00 http://cr.yp.to/proto/utctai.html 00:44:46 ehird, it is a 3p page 00:44:53 that is text copied from posix standard 00:44:54 yeah its localtime() that's fucked 00:44:55 it seems 00:45:20 AnMaster: it's adjtimex(2) 00:45:26 ah 00:45:26 that deals with leap seconds 00:46:25 hum 00:46:29 only in return value?! 00:46:38 according to man page 00:46:43 yes, that puzzled me too 00:46:53 i wonder how much yp.to costs djb 00:47:10 I think it's one of the possible options for the "mode selector" option in the struct 00:47:25 ais523, well the mode selector doesn't define such an option there 00:47:31 "time offset"? 00:47:48 no idea, really 00:47:50 ais523, that could be ntp doing "jump time" and it may do that for lots of other reasons 00:47:51 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 00:47:55 like initial adjustment 00:47:57 and so on 00:48:06 which happens most of the time at boot 00:48:22 yes, I suppose so 00:48:41 and I don't get leap seconds then 00:49:17 int status; /* clock command/status */ 00:49:24 maybe that? 00:49:33 can't find a description of it there 00:52:29 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:52:36 -!- moozilla has joined. 00:55:14 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:55:22 -!- moozilla has joined. 00:58:35 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 01:05:13 Argh, I'm being defeated by plastic 01:05:17 (And glue) 01:05:21 coo 01:06:39 JNGNEUGNEGNE 01:06:40 neughara 01:06:45 idsnrt ibepm zu b eutrjne 01:06:47 ... 01:06:48 ,..,,,,,,,,,,,,, 01:06:49 flexo: stop 01:06:53 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | WE SURVIVED THE LEAP SECOND AND ALL WE GOT WAS ... WAIT, WHERE IS MY T-SHIRT? | HAPPY NEW YEAR AZORES. 01:06:53 no nwayx 01:06:58 NEYWAEREar 01:07:02 flexo: you're drunk 01:07:03 confirm/deny 01:07:03 way to guvkreignv 01:07:04 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:07:05 yes i wam 01:07:15 who's flexo? 01:07:17 flexo: you might want to avoid irc :P 01:07:20 ais523: person 01:07:21 O 01:07:24 _IEAM NO' 01:07:24 tt 01:07:32 baoyy 01:07:35 new year 01:07:37 evesonw 01:07:37 -!- moozilla has joined. 01:07:37 e 01:07:39 gdf 01:07:40 afij 01:07:41 new 01:07:43 yarjijoer 01:07:45 * ehird is cool 01:07:46 this might be just noehtier 01:07:49 * oerjan doesn't have _that_ much trouble typing on irc when drunk. admittedly that's not often. 01:07:50 esoteric 01:07:52 hapy new years eve, flexo 01:07:53 langwuaflege 01:07:54 wo whar 01:07:55 :) 01:07:59 esoteric langwuaflege. :D 01:08:01 or happy new year 01:08:06 which it probably is, at least to me 01:08:08 *for me 01:08:14 * ais523 is not drunk, just tired 01:08:28 you know 01:08:31 i can tyepe 01:08:40 not very well. 01:08:45 xa well 01:08:53 no, i assure you you are typing badly 01:09:01 :) 01:09:04 bu 01:09:05 t 01:09:12 i wote some 01:09:20 whatsd the wor 01:09:21 e 01:09:21 d 01:09:24 flexo: write an esoalng interpreter while drunk 01:09:27 it will be amazing 01:09:40 i'm jus t deayoing 01:09:41 it will cmolipe pfercetly 01:09:45 i wrong yapi.b 01:09:48 hence 01:09:50 i 01:09:54 ', entitelted 01:10:00 this is great 01:10:00 to be drunkt 01:10:02 rihgt now 01:10:56 sorry 01:11:05 maybe you know 01:11:10 maybe you dont 01:11:13 aynway 01:11:14 im 01:11:16 knida 01:11:18 drunk 01:11:28 flexo: "kinda" 01:11:34 yeqa :) 01:11:41 i'm going to ping AnMaster now so I can laugh at him ranting against alcohol, twice the fun 01:11:45 gotta eat some paracetamol 01:11:53 oh 01:11:58 a nd i stole some..d 01:12:05 dont know the name 01:12:12 XD 01:12:12 christmas tree balls? 01:12:16 night all 01:12:24 night AnMaster 01:12:24 WAIT AnMaster 01:12:34 very shiny balls 01:12:39 ehird: why is it AnMaster you expect to rant against alcohol? 01:12:40 glizering 01:12:42 why not me, for instance/ 01:12:46 ais523: because he always does 01:12:50 whenever alcohol is mentioned 01:12:57 ehird: well, I haven't drunk in years 01:13:05 but i only got threee 01:13:14 flexo: only three?! ;'( 01:13:14 other balls were too risky 01:13:45 anyway 01:13:51 i'm getting sobar eninga 01:13:52 aain 01:13:54 gai 01:13:55 sure you are 01:13:56 gains 01:13:58 again 01:14:00 so 01:14:14 well 01:14:15 flexo: are yuo sure? yuo seem a bdrit drunnnnkkkkkk 01:14:18 who is flexo? 01:14:19 new here? 01:14:26 few ddays nwew 01:14:29 ais523, also I never ever drunk alcohol 01:14:32 see 01:14:34 told ya 01:14:43 AnMaster: i invedted the brainfuck module divission aivleorighe :( 01:14:46 algithrihmn 01:14:51 but talking to a currently drunk person about it would be useless 01:14:52 yeah he's famous. 01:14:54 an oldbie. 01:14:55 ehird, ^ 01:14:58 :) 01:15:02 exacgtly 01:15:02 AnMaster: talking to drunk people is easy. 01:15:06 AnMaster: I used to, but I haven't for years 01:15:10 because I realised I didn't like it 01:15:14 ehird, what he says make no sense 01:15:18 when he is drunk 01:15:21 sure it does, he's just making typos. 01:15:21 it is unreadable 01:15:22 no it makes all sense 01:15:25 see 01:15:31 i wrote a setence without errors 01:15:36 not that one :P 01:15:36 lucky 01:15:42 and what ehird said 01:16:35 d*b stil sinst here 01:16:45 wjat am i doing here 01:17:03 flexo: talking 01:17:06 right 01:17:06 so 01:17:09 you people 01:17:13 awake an andthing 01:17:20 yeah i'm awake 01:17:22 can solve my.. rjomg 01:17:24 thing 01:17:27 so 01:17:28 whats the problem 01:17:32 toadskin 01:17:38 you know TS? 01:17:45 yeah 01:17:48 alright 01:17:48 isn't that a sub-tc thingy? 01:17:53 TS is not CS 01:17:54 TC 01:17:56 but! 01:18:02 http://billglover.com/software/toadskin/ hm 01:18:03 if TC hat no ring-buffer 01:18:04 * ais523 gives themself a link: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Toadskin 01:18:12 nd the accumulator was stored on the callstack 01:18:17 would it be TC? 01:18:22 hrm. 01:18:24 dunno :D 01:18:36 figure it out plz, thanks 01:19:00 i think it woudl be 01:19:11 the Toadskin page says it's TC; is it lying? 01:19:11 but it's just an assumption 01:19:15 ydes 01:19:17 it's lying 01:19:21 why is it not tc? 01:19:22 in many ways 01:19:38 the referene tc interpreter it so buggy, it's not usable 01:19:42 well, its only unlimited-size storage is a single stack 01:19:53 [] is broken in the rereference interpreter 01:19:54 which just screams "PDA" to me 01:20:03 ah 01:20:24 and even if it was implemented correctly its still not TC 01:20:25 it also has a "ring buffer" for the arguments 01:20:31 but the spec doesn't explain how that works 01:20:38 because it's jujst a stimple 1 stackmachine 01:20:40 and IME ring buffers have been finite-sized 01:20:45 but 01:20:51 if you remove the stupid ringbbuffer 01:20:59 and add the accumulator to the callstack 01:21:08 i thing it *might* m 01:21:10 be TC 01:21:15 not sure thoufht 01:21:16 flexo: can you get variables unlimitedly deep in the callstack? 01:21:18 maybe 01:21:22 ais523: nope 01:21:24 you dont need to 01:21:27 if there's any limit at all, it can't be TC without some other sort of data storage 01:21:52 ais523: well, as long as the callstack and the argstack are not limited....' 01:21:56 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:22:03 -!- moozilla has joined. 01:22:08 flexo: wait, would there be two stacks then? 01:22:09 the problem is that the ampoutnt of words you can define are limited 01:22:12 yes 01:22:13 and could you pop one whilst pushing the other? 01:22:17 in that case, it might work 01:22:19 yes 01:22:28 but the amount of words are limied 01:22:43 the question is if the amount of words are enough to prove TC 01:23:01 (in my "enhanced" TS) 01:23:06 write a bf interp in them. 01:23:14 thats my plan 01:23:16 but im drunk# 01:23:17 :) 01:23:21 flexo: alternatively, turing machine 01:23:23 minsky machine 01:23:24 iota 01:23:24 ... 01:23:27 2,3 TM, yea 01:23:28 the possibilities are endless 01:23:33 2,3? thank ais523 for that 01:23:41 if he hadn't proved it was TC that might not be enough ;-) 01:23:43 don't try to implement the 2,3 to prove TCness 01:23:47 oh. that was him? 01:23:51 flexo: yeah 01:23:53 ais523: why not? 01:23:55 because you need some way to set up the input tape correctly 01:23:55 oh. 01:23:57 which is a pain 01:24:06 sure, but as long as you can prove its the right 2,3... 01:24:07 famous people in here 01:24:10 most programming languages don't like handling an infinite amount of input 01:24:13 flexo: indeed 01:24:22 :) 01:24:33 and "this program is TC, but it takes infinitely long to run" tends not to ring well with programmers 01:24:43 a program cannot be tc... 01:24:53 well, it could be an interpreter for a TC language 01:25:13 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:25:14 -!- metazilla has joined. 01:25:15 yeah 01:25:35 so 01:25:44 ais523, being my personal god 01:25:54 is my enhanced TS TC? 01:26:06 flexo: I admit I don't understand exactly how it works 01:26:09 I think it's likely to be, though 01:26:22 as you have recursion to manipulate the function stack 01:26:26 and < and > to manipulate the arg stack 01:26:28 it'll look weird, though 01:26:37 yes.. but a limited amount of words 01:26:49 so you cant go as deep in the callstack as you want 01:26:50 you don't normally need many if it's TC at all 01:26:54 thats the problem 01:26:55 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 01:26:58 it might be doable even with 1 01:27:18 although when I've done TCness proofs before normally about 5 or 6 of what corresponds to a Toadskin function is enough 01:27:23 do you have a fixed interp I could tinker with? 01:27:30 yes 01:27:38 but only for the "described" TS 01:27:43 not for my improved one 01:27:53 but it should be easy to extend 01:27:55 :) 01:28:12 my interpreter doesnt push acc to cs 01:28:14 ts 01:28:16 cs 01:28:42 http://flexotec.eu/~flexo/toadskin.rbhttp://flexotec.eu/~flexo/toadskin.rb 01:28:44 errr 01:28:50 http://flexotec.eu/~flexo/toadskin.rb 01:29:09 that one is not TC for sure 01:29:21 just a simple stackmachone 01:30:04 okay 01:30:06 i think 01:30:10 i just got to the point 01:30:19 phoning ex-gilfrirends 01:30:46 luckily i rembembered to get my phone off the cord a couple o ouard ago 01:31:28 flexo: you said you were getting sober :P 01:32:45 oh amnit 01:33:00 "the requested .. thinge.. doesnt ajsnwer" 01:33:03 :( 01:33:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:33:56 i think i should tkae some paracetammal 01:34:01 and get som slee 01:34:01 p 01:34:56 flexo: ++ 01:35:40 anforunatly 01:35:52 i cant talk to ##c without being id.djd 01:35:55 id-ed 01:35:59 so i geusss 01:36:08 this kinda makes a ponit for paracetmaotl 01:36:11 +sleeep 01:36:43 but 01:36:43 bye. 01:36:48 ex-girlfriends :( 01:36:51 bye. 01:36:53 :P 01:37:13 i dont wanna annoy them... butl... but! 01:37:18 BYE. 01:37:36 ^ul (sl)S(e)(:^)(::::^^^^)^^S(p)S 01:37:36 sl ...out of time! 01:37:38 what about the last one? 01:37:41 what the 01:37:46 flexo: no. sleep. 01:37:50 :( 01:38:02 oh wait 01:38:12 ^ul (sl)S(e)(:*)(::::****)^^S(p)S 01:38:12 sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep 01:38:15 * ais523 tries to figure out what oerjan was doing 01:38:18 flexo: sleep so you don't regret it tomorrow. :P 01:38:29 and ah, it becomes a lot more obvious once I see the corrected program 01:38:39 how surprising 01:38:41 ehird: good poinr 01:38:53 :) 01:39:09 alright then 01:39:14 goot night ;) 01:39:35 bye :) 01:42:32 alright 01:42:42 ^ul (sl)S(e)(:*)(:*)(::**)^^^S(p)S 01:42:42 sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep 01:42:45 gave root-access o my servers to some scriptkiddie 01:42:49 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:42:52 reaylly time to go now# 01:42:53 flexo: why? 01:42:54 flexo: don't. 01:42:56 morning. 01:42:57 regret. 01:42:59 undo. that. 01:43:12 no. known him for like... 8 years 01:43:18 -!- metazilla has joined. 01:43:20 some script kiddie 01:43:24 he's okay. somewhat:) 01:43:42 he just wants to flood some servers 01:43:52 i see. 01:43:58 friends help you move. real friends help you move bodies. 01:43:58 my ones being hosted in .nl i'm okay with that 01:44:35 script kiddie friends ask you to help them flood servers 01:45:01 worst case scenario - my ex-gf can no longer convert youtbue videos to mp3 with that box 01:45:07 i suppose i can live with that 01:45:21 aren't you, y'know, legally liable? 01:45:29 .nl 01:45:55 it's legal to ddos in .nl? er, k. 01:45:58 even if ".nl" is not so much of a legally argument 01:46:00 so tomorrow we wake up to learn someone nuked the netherlands. nothing to worry about. 01:46:12 the people hes attacking are scrkiptkiides aswell ;) 01:46:28 the only winning move is to kill yourself. 01:46:49 oh well 01:47:00 i'm way to drunk to think about these things 01:47:09 the funny thing is 01:47:25 that guy got some other guy to got me drunk in the first place 01:47:33 and i know that before i got there 01:47:36 :) 01:48:16 but i demolished a bank before that 01:48:26 i got other stuff to worry about 01:48:42 (you know, with video surveilannce and stuff) 01:48:58 ah. had you mentioned the bank demolishing 01:48:59 fun fun fun 01:49:06 i don't thikn i would have worried about the script kiddie root access. 01:49:11 :) 01:49:17 note that I cannot condone any illegal behaviour 01:49:27 yea well 01:49:28 ais523: what, is silence implicit consent now? 01:49:31 it's new year 01:49:35 everything 01:49:36 depends. did the script kiddie help him with the bank demolishing? 01:49:38 's forgiven 01:49:39 rapists all around the world are excited 01:49:42 ehird: no, only in B 01:50:02 how do you demolish a bank anyway 01:50:03 bulldozer it? 01:50:18 nah, just the stuff you can access 01:50:23 like the doors, ATMs and stuff 01:50:40 new year sure does bring out the best in everyone. 01:50:46 :) 01:51:08 living in a hicksville 01:51:18 moving to munich tomorrow 01:51:35 i'm failry certain noone will ever trace this to me :) 01:51:56 i suggest you make a new year's resolution not to demolish any more banks. 01:52:05 eehehee 01:53:18 koaky 01:53:20 sleepp 01:53:23 defnitnv now 01:53:25 *sleeeps* 01:58:56 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:59:03 -!- moozilla has joined. 01:59:41 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:59:45 -!- metazilla has joined. 02:02:26 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | WE SURVIVED THE LEAP SECOND AND ALL WE GOT WAS ... WAIT, WHERE IS MY T-SHIRT? | HAPPY NEW YEAR SOUTH GEORGIA. 02:03:15 i want to be drunk without the drunkness 02:03:19 therefore I will pretend to be drunadjsh 02:03:20 kd 02:03:22 drn 02:03:23 driml 02:03:25 drunk 02:04:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:06:40 a itn of drynkent meoer jut anpone 02:06:58 pradon 02:07:03 i k;'' think i should lslepp 02:07:10 i murederjded thre r dogs 02:08:27 i tnink yno sjoukd bt jubd to amimajs 02:09:08 imless tgir trsllt annyiobd 02:09:26 sory, i have iouhr no ufkcings iodea what you are talking abtiuuuuu 02:09:56 i guess typing with one finger without looking at the keyboard is sorta overdoing it 02:10:49 I will type with one finger without looking at the keyboard now. 02:11:00 hpe sm iu cffoiungh 02:11:10 Again... 02:11:23 yfat pribrs my tdeiry 02:12:22 csm i[p jtdu mt npe 02:12:52 can you hear me now 02:12:57 I was consistently too far right. 02:13:13 aopky doooooooooooo 02:13:15 p eople 02:13:16 Just like [disliked right-leaning political group]! 02:13:17 how mnay banks 02:13:20 dhave you demofloished 02:13:23 ttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt 02:13:25 toady 02:13:28 a]]]at onnnnnnkewsyears 02:13:35 ]]]]]]]]]]]]I Aowojjjjjjist u kinda lisloiding ojver thek eynabrbod 02:13:37 keyboard 02:13:40 in soviet russia, banks demolish YOU 02:13:40 sliding 02:13:42 im 02:14:26 impnbsetbetil 02:15:04 once mire eoth geekunf 02:15:28 geekunf is such a household word 02:15:59 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:16:08 -!- moozilla has joined. 02:16:20 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:16:28 -!- moozilla has joined. 02:17:57 hmph 2009 is not prime. i want my money back! 02:18:40 7 7 41 02:20:10 2009 -> 2030 -> 203 -> 210 -> 21 -> eh, that's a multiple of 7. 02:20:27 i guess we'll have to wait until 2011. 02:21:47 * Warrigal ponders the primeness of 2003 02:22:13 seems so 02:22:25 Not divisible by 7, or 11... I'm bored. 02:32:54 wait till 2012 02:32:58 ZOMG ESCHATON 02:33:11 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:33:11 -!- metazilla has joined. 02:33:31 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:33:37 -!- moozilla has joined. 02:36:57 -!- oerjan has quit ("You Maya KEEPA YOUR 2012"). 02:51:08 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:51:20 -!- moozilla has joined. 02:55:29 SO CLOSE TO HEAD MOUNTED DISPLAY 03:10:11 guys 03:10:28 the mayan writing system has got to be the best example of an esoteric writing system 03:10:30 seriously 03:10:56 Idonno, Linear-A is pretty esoteric (by the actual meaning of the word) 03:11:00 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:11:05 -!- moozilla has joined. 03:11:10 Linear A isn't esoteric at all :P 03:12:04 mayan glyphs are mostly phonemic so they represent sounds 03:12:16 but they have crazy rules for how you write the sounds 03:12:37 and not only that but each sound has something like an average of 15 ways it can be written, simply for diversity's sake 03:13:19 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:13:27 -!- moozilla has joined. 03:19:46 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 03:35:46 -!- moozilla has quit (Connection reset by peer). 03:44:26 -!- kar8nga has joined. 04:00:21 hrm 04:00:40 don't they say that C isn't turing-complete because you can do sizeof(int*)? 04:00:52 but you don't need pointers to be turing complete do you? 04:01:10 you can just use recursion and allocate as much as you need on the stack 04:01:59 the argument is fallacious 04:02:27 any given C program as compiled at any given moment cannot be turing complete because of that 04:02:35 huh? 04:02:38 but the same is true of any program period, since no computer has infinite memory 04:02:46 ...you're an idiot 04:02:49 what? 04:02:54 excuse me? 04:03:02 i'm talking about C the language, not an implementation thereof 04:03:02 im answering your question, asshole 04:03:05 yes i know that 04:03:08 now shut up and listen 04:03:41 the argumentation for saying that C as a language isn't turing complete comes from the fact that sizeof(int*) is defined at compile time for the intended machine its supposed to run on 04:04:16 DAMN YOU PLASTIC 04:04:16 C isn't necessarily compiled 04:04:19 DAAAAAMN YOOOOOOU 04:04:38 furthermore, since sizeof(int*) can never be infinite, you never can address infinite memory 04:04:57 so, the argument goes, C cannot be TC 04:05:02 ... 04:05:12 thats what they say. not me. 04:05:20 C is turing complete without pointers 04:05:31 listen, im just telling you what they say :) 04:05:42 Yes, C minus pointers is TC. 04:05:47 ...i know what they say 04:05:51 the argument is irrelevant anyway since all programming languages are like that in some regard 04:05:55 don't they say that C isn't turing-complete 04:06:05 C with pointers is not. Just choosing not to use pointers is not sufficient, since by the definition of C everything is addressable, even if you don't use the address. 04:06:36 furthermore, any program imaginable can infact be run so C-as-a-whole (INCLUDING compile-time definition of sizeof(int*)) is turing complete 04:08:42 because if your machine doesnt have enough memory you do what everyone does, add more, then try again. 04:08:54 (actually i think i misspoke, i think sizeof(int*) is run-time defined not compile time) 04:09:16 a machine can't be turing complete 04:09:21 no real machine can, no. 04:09:23 we already know that 04:09:29 but you know what i mean 04:10:00 the language is TC if you talk about C as a whole, not just C-as-it-is-wrought-with-some-particular-sizeof(int*) 04:22:22 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 04:40:44 Err... How one would store the potentially unbounded amount of data in C without using pointers (assuming elements don't have to have valid addresses)? 04:42:38 The call stack could store unbounded amount of data, but its just one LIFO stack, which is not sufficent for TC. 04:58:12 -!- Warrigal has left (?). 05:24:44 sure it is, ilari. functional programming languages do it perfectly well. 05:24:59 granted you dont use just a stack. you do all sorts of substitution stuff as well in that model 05:25:23 but thats not the same as just stack machine 05:25:24 far from it. 05:44:57 Step one of my wearable computer is done :) 06:09:21 oh? 06:18:16 I've converted a Myvu Crystal into a compact one-eye version for mounting onto glasses. 06:29:00 cool 06:35:32 -!- moozilla has joined. 06:35:35 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30230927&l=7b22a&id=1055580469 06:38:07 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:38:08 -!- metazilla has joined. 06:49:52 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:49:55 -!- metazilla has joined. 06:52:36 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:52:55 -!- metazilla has joined. 07:04:48 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:04:50 -!- moozilla has joined. 07:07:29 -!- metazilla has joined. 07:07:34 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:07:39 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 07:22:23 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:22:49 -!- moozilla has joined. 07:29:55 lol 07:29:56 cute 07:40:23 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:40:49 -!- moozilla has joined. 07:41:07 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has joined. 07:42:03 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has quit (Client Quit). 07:58:20 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 11:26:41 -!- moozilla has joined. 11:37:14 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:03:56 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:04:17 is the new year counter still going? 12:39:49 -!- DonQuijote has joined. 12:39:55 hi 12:40:13 hi 12:41:20 -!- DonQuijote has left (?). 12:41:30 ... 12:50:36 -!- moozilla has joined. 13:02:17 -!- metazilla has joined. 13:02:17 -!- moozilla has quit (Connection reset by peer). 13:02:29 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 13:04:38 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:20:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:20:29 it's STILL on South Georgia? how disappointing 13:20:42 well, I don't think there are any countries at -13 13:20:52 so we've reached the end of our new year updater 13:21:11 s/reached/crashed/ 13:21:32 hm indeed 13:21:52 oerjan: it's having a sort of Y2K bug 13:21:55 but with hours rather than years 13:21:56 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | WE SURVIVED THE LEAP SECOND AND ALL WE GOT WAS ... WAIT, WHERE IS MY T-SHIRT? | HAPPY NEW YEAR EARTH. 13:26:04 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 14:13:59 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 14:26:28 oh.. my head.. 14:30:39 -!- moozilla has joined. 14:31:38 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:31:40 -!- ehird has joined. 14:31:42 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:31:46 -!- ehird has joined. 14:31:48 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:31:52 -!- ehird has joined. 14:31:54 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:31:58 -!- ehird has joined. 14:32:00 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:32:04 -!- ehird has joined. 14:32:06 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:32:10 -!- ehird has joined. 14:32:12 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:32:16 -!- ehird has joined. 14:32:24 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:32:28 -!- ehird has joined. 14:32:30 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:32:34 -!- ehird has joined. 14:32:36 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:32:40 -!- ehird has joined. 14:32:42 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:32:46 -!- ehird has joined. 14:32:48 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:32:52 -!- ehird has joined. 14:32:54 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:32:58 -!- ehird has joined. 14:33:06 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:35:42 -!- ehird has joined. 14:36:06 that was some _nasty_ bouncerfuckage 14:36:14 that was some _nasty_ bouncerfuckage 14:36:21 ehird: you're repeating yourself 14:36:32 ais523: the logs didn't show me as saying that yet 14:36:34 they're lagged 14:36:35 so I tried again 14:36:36 I'm not sure if it's deliberate or more bouncer weirdness 14:36:39 ah, and ok 14:36:45 happy mailman lists reminder day 14:37:02 why is the Australian reminder day /after/ the European and American ones today? 14:37:17 because australia went forward in time or sth 14:37:21 xD 14:38:54 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30230927&l=7b22a&id=1055580469 14:38:57 ^ lol 14:38:59 (from GregorR) 14:39:07 it looks like 2000 as seen from 1970 14:43:59 -!- ehird has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | WE SURVIVED THE LEAP SECOND AND ALL WE GOT WAS ... WAIT, WHERE IS MY T-SHIRT? | HAPPY BIRTHDAY EARTH. 14:44:10 -!- ehird has set topic: LOGS: HTTP://TUNES.ORG/~NEF/ESOTERIC/ | WE SURVIVED THE LEAP SECOND AND ALL WE GOT WAS ... WAIT, WHERE IS MY T-SHIRT? | HAPPY BIRTHDAY EARTH. 14:47:45 Yes, because the world was "born" on New Years day :P 14:47:55 Yes. 14:47:56 Yes it was. 14:48:16 GregorR: there's about a 1 in 365.2422 chance... 14:48:24 GregorR: If you prefer, I could change it to "HAPPY BIRTHDAY CALENDAR". 14:49:15 ehird: what makes you think the calendar was started on january 1? 14:49:19 ais523: No. No there is not. As the formation of a planet takes substantially longer than a day, and there's no agreement on what exact moment the planet is considered to be a planet rather than a ball of primordial ooze. 14:49:21 especially as new year used to be march 1 14:49:25 it wasn't 14:49:29 duh 14:49:29 :P 14:49:40 GregorR: hmm... you could take the median opinion, or something 14:49:55 and I think the exact moment is the moment it pulls itself into an approximate sphere under its own gravity 14:50:17 I think it's a mathematical fact whether an object is doing that or not 14:51:11 not mathematical fact, surely 14:51:17 scientific, sure 14:51:25 ehird: if you have accurate enough measurements of the location of all the relevant rocks 14:51:35 and their velocities and weights 14:51:38 well, tru. 14:51:49 you can determine via simulation if they're pulling themselves into a sphere under their own gravity or not 14:53:13 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:53:21 -!- moozilla has joined. 14:53:53 I want to build a full universe simulator. (For a quantum Infinity Machine, naturally.) 14:55:46 -!- metazilla has joined. 14:55:46 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:55:56 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 15:01:31 ehird: not a multiverse simulator? 15:01:37 you'll need one to simulate quantum stuff 15:01:37 ais523: Just run multiple instances. 15:01:50 Also, isn't that only with many worlds? 15:02:06 Many Worlds would be fun though. I'd tune into the world where everything was batshit insane. 15:08:04 You know, I never thought I'd come up with an actual use for markov chains. 15:08:29 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:08:31 ehird: LZMA? 15:08:39 LZMA compresses with markov chains? 15:08:45 Weird 15:08:47 among other things 15:08:48 . 15:08:52 it doesn't exactly use markov chains 15:08:57 not random ones, anyway 15:09:19 I think recording the 'random' numbers needed to generate the actual text is shorter than recording the text itself 15:09:24 and that's how the trick works 15:09:30 ha 15:09:41 but no, that's not it 15:09:53 ofc it's not that simple 15:11:29 now I will wait for someone to ask me what 15:11:59 I heard lzma was very good 15:12:09 and my tests shows it is slightly better than bzip2 15:12:19 more than slightly better IME 15:12:20 for your average tar file at least 15:12:42 ais523, may depend on size I guess, for example gzip is better than bzip2 at really small files 15:12:52 I guess bzip2 has more header overhead 15:12:57 or something like that 15:13:01 lzma compresses really slowly but decompresses quickly 15:13:05 true 15:13:20 ais523, isn't it what 7zip use too? 15:13:27 yes 15:13:29 I don't know 15:13:33 the reference lzma impl is from 7zip iirc 15:13:51 heh 15:14:00 thing about windows archivers (not 7zip): 15:14:02 ehird, 7zip compresses very well, even for zip and such too 15:14:06 they all give you like a 1000 day trial 15:14:07 and then 15:14:10 LET YOU KEEP USING IT 15:14:25 advpng uses 7zip's deflate compression implementation to shrink pngs by quite a bt 15:14:26 bit* 15:14:27 they just make you wait $days_product_has_been_used settings before de-graying "Continue" 15:14:34 wel 15:14:35 l 15:14:35 less 15:14:41 it's like 5 seconds per year. 15:14:56 ehird, eh? 15:15:24 also I never used those windows compression programs 15:15:27 apart from 7zip 15:15:32 and 7zip has been ported to *nix too 15:15:33 eh what? 15:15:35 ehird: that's because they can't compete against each other if they try to charge 15:15:41 ais523: well, exactly 15:15:43 ehird, oh yes windows xp has zip built in 15:15:43 but it's ridiculous 15:15:48 AnMaster: yeah, it's awful. 15:15:53 ehird, indeed 15:16:17 p7zip is the Unix port of 7-Zip, a file archiver that archives with 15:16:18 very high compression ratios. 15:16:22 ehird, I just use tar.bz2 since it support for opening it is way more common than tar.lzma 15:16:30 although they just ported the algo, not the interface 15:16:36 ais523, I have it installed if I need to use it 15:16:40 AnMaster: And much less common than tar.gz & .zip 15:16:43 :P 15:16:50 ehird, depends on your audience 15:16:51 I think it's best to offer in multiple formats 15:16:58 tar.gz is more common yes 15:16:58 ideally ones that people haven't heard of but can open anyway 15:17:02 I download code in tar.bz2, offer it in tar.gz, and offer other things in .zip 15:17:24 ehird, I see no reason to use zip 15:17:38 yes because you live in a world where everyone uses linux. 15:17:44 or *bssd 15:17:47 *bsd 15:17:53 also I know OS X can open them 15:17:56 ehird: it's not like the average Windows user can't open a .gz nowadays 15:18:00 yes, it would help if your world was less of a fantasy 15:18:03 ais523: can winzip do it? 15:18:09 on most of the random cybercafe Windows computers I find, double-clicking a .gz works 15:18:16 I regularly encounter people asking what a .rar is, and afaik only 7zip/winrar are the common archivers that can do .gz on windows 15:18:22 all sorts of random programs open them, I think winzip might be one 15:18:26 ehird, .rar is a pain 15:18:29 closed 15:18:37 AnMaster: it is useful for certain cases 15:18:44 actually, IIRC winzip decompresses .tar.gz into .tar 15:18:47 and can also open .tar 15:18:48 due to its built-in split-archive-in-multiple-parts and verification stuff 15:18:50 so you have to run two nested instances 15:18:56 ehird, oh? compression ratio is less than 7zip iirc 15:19:04 compression ratio isn't always everything 15:19:06 also, IE saves .tar.gz files as .tar.tar because it confuses the file associations 15:19:23 ais523, nice one 15:19:28 so 15:19:30 .tgz 15:19:34 and .tbz2 15:19:38 I had great fun after downloading CLC-INTERCAL 15:19:44 ais523, oh? 15:19:46 because the uncompressed files ended .tar 15:19:47 it uses compress? 15:19:52 wait, no 15:19:55 ais523, huh what? 15:19:55 the compressed files ended .tar 15:19:59 and the uncompressed files ended .gz 15:20:03 haha 15:20:05 for some reason I fail to figure out 15:20:11 i think that the separation of tar and gzip/bzip2/etc is a problem 15:20:16 ais523, err the reason: it's intercal 15:20:26 if the compression format knows more about the structure of the directory tree, surely it could do a better job? 15:20:35 maybe 15:20:56 ehird, on the other hand separating them follows the unix philosophy 15:21:05 AnMaster: no, it was browser+decompresser borkage 15:21:10 the unix philosophy isn't exactly ideal in all cases. 15:21:10 ais523, ah 15:21:15 ehird, true 15:21:24 I thought CLC had done it deliberately, but it turned out he hadn't 15:21:27 and I highly doubt anyone here uses a machine that actually subscribes to it 15:21:39 ais523, is that the usual result of .tar.gz? 15:21:40 although with a note that he might have done it if he thought of it 15:21:40 e.g. find(1) 15:21:42 on windows 15:21:45 a kitchen sink program if I ever saw one 15:21:50 AnMaster: I don't think so, it depends a lot on what's in the registry 15:21:57 which rather depends on the order in which you installed things 15:21:59 $any_desktop_environment_ever 15:22:04 ehird, I use find a lot and yes it is too complex 15:22:20 ehird: find is actually a generalised iteration command 15:22:24 need to check man page a lot 15:22:32 it's sort of like the loop construct in MAGENTA 15:22:33 not only does it dump a directory tree, it also filters based on a myriad of things, executes programs, and its command-line syntax is different from just about every other unix command 15:22:45 which IIRC can take while and if and do and for and until and unless and foreach all at the same time 15:22:47 heck, it even bloody has boolean operations with parenthical grouping!! 15:22:52 ehird: so does test 15:22:59 ais523: and it's not unixy either 15:23:19 would you call awk unixy? 15:23:21 what about sed? 15:23:28 what about bc? 15:23:29 that's different, they're metaprograms 15:23:32 they're minilanguages 15:23:32 what about sh? 15:23:35 ehird: so is find 15:23:39 and so is test 15:23:42 ais523: yes, but it's an unneeded one 15:23:45 because it integrates into sh 15:23:50 ehird, err find doesn't 15:23:50 and yet disobeys sh's general principle 15:23:51 s 15:23:54 AnMaster: yes it does 15:23:54 and 15:23:59 you're meant to use it in a shell script or from the command line 15:24:03 ehird, no it is a separate program, not a builtin 15:24:07 /facepalm 15:24:08 shut up. 15:24:12 ehird: would you be happier if find were a shell builtin? 15:24:15 ais523: no 15:25:02 ais523, I think he would be happier if find read the parameters from stdin 15:25:03 :D 15:25:13 sigh 15:25:27 ehird: would you consider ls -R | grep to be more unixy? 15:25:34 Yes. 15:25:45 ais523, I would consider it to be buggy for edge cases and a lot slower 15:25:47 It does one thing, does it well, and slots into other programs in a pipe. 15:25:48 ehird: the problem is that it runs kind-of slowly on a large directory tree 15:25:55 just consider newlines in filenames 15:25:57 Although `ls -R` is a bit suspicious. 15:25:58 and yes it is slow 15:26:03 yes, of course it's freaking slow 15:26:06 AnMaster: ls -R0, then 15:26:13 unix-philosophy-compliant software _is_ slo 15:26:13 ais523, is that posix? 15:26:13 w 15:26:16 that's why it's not always ideal 15:26:19 AnMaster: no, it's GNU 15:26:25 ais523, then... 15:26:25 but that does not change the fact that find is not UNIXy 15:26:41 ... 15:26:44 ehird: do you think it's OK to have non-UNIXy things in UNIX, as an optimisation? 15:26:49 'find' is not unixy?! 15:26:57 which does the same as a unixy thing would, but faster and more reliably? 15:26:58 ehird, also you could do find . -name 'foo' | xargs foo 15:27:11 GregorR: Plz look up the UNIX philosophy. ais523: Yeah. I don't like how find does it, though. 15:27:24 ehird, how do you dislike find? 15:27:30 I've already listed that. 15:27:42 ehird: I think the UNIX philosophy is at least partially to do with not allowing philosophy to get in the way of useful productivity 15:27:43 that it isn't unixy? 15:27:52 ais523: no, that's worse is better 15:27:54 ehird: So is test un-unixy? 15:27:58 GregorR: Yes. 15:28:04 GregorR, no 15:28:06 AnMaster: You can do a non-unixy program and still have it look like other unixy programs. 15:28:11 it is a mini language like sed 15:28:11 ehird: what about pcregrep? 15:28:11 ehird: I'd love to see your if expressions in sh scripts X_X 15:28:13 Also, I believe he addressed _me_. 15:28:22 GregorR: I am not advocating for the unix philosophy. 15:28:33 Find is useful. I use it. 15:28:33 ehird: Just because someone asks you a question, does that mean that other people can't answer/ 15:28:35 But it's not UNIX-y. 15:28:54 ais523: when it's a totally subjective question addressed to a person on one side of an argument, the other side butting in with an answer without reasoning is pretty stupid. 15:29:04 ehird: I was hoping someone else would answer 15:29:04 ehird, I did reason 15:29:05 :P 15:29:17 it is a mini language like sed 15:29:17 ehird: Is /lib/ld.so UNIXy? 15:29:19 X-P 15:29:28 Your mom is UNIXy. 15:29:31 Apart from the "do it well part". 15:29:32 Oh snap. 15:29:37 s/well part"/well" part/ 15:29:59 GregorR, ls: cannot access /lib/ld.so: No such file or directory 15:30:09 AnMaster: On Linux it's ld-linux.so 15:30:13 GregorR, here it is /lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 15:30:13 I was using the classic UNIX name :P 15:30:17 personally, I think the main /practical/ implications of the UNIXy philosophy is to have a breakable pipe 15:30:28 so you can look at intermediate state anywhere, and tinker 15:30:29 GregorR, that is yet another one 15:30:33 % ls /lib 15:30:33 ls: cannot access /lib: No such file or directory 15:30:35 * fix the grammar in that 15:30:38 Look at me! My system is different too! 15:30:46 ehird: Mac OS, or GoboLinux? 15:30:50 Former. 15:30:55 GoboLinux br0ked up. 15:31:02 actually, GoboLinux probably has a /lib, just it's full of symlinks to where everything actually is 15:31:03 /AbsurdLibraryDirectoryName 15:31:14 [ehird:/] % ls -l .|grep etc 15:31:15 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root admin 11 2006-12-14 12:34 etc -> private/etc 15:31:18 WHAT IS THIS HERESY 15:31:25 ehird, eh? 15:31:38 ehird, yes OS X has those 15:31:45 What? 15:31:49 Has those whats. 15:31:51 iirc it has a /lib symlink too 15:31:54 No. 15:31:55 It doesn't. 15:32:01 It has /usr/lib, but not /lib. 15:32:01 ehird, /etc symlink at least 15:32:08 what the fuck did I just paste? 15:32:11 15:31 [ehird:/] % ls -l .|grep etc 15:32:12 15:31 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root admin 11 2006-12-14 12:34 etc -> private/etc 15:32:15 ehird, yes 15:32:16 indeed 15:32:24 [ehird:/] % ls -l .|grep etc 15:32:24 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root admin 11 2006-12-14 12:34 etc -> private/etc 15:32:24 WHAT IS THIS HERESY 15:32:24 even 15:32:34 so I thought you were shocked at your find 15:32:43 no, I was joking 15:32:44 % which python 15:32:44 /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/bin/python 15:32:48 ^ more unix sins 15:32:56 /usr/bin/python here 15:33:09 ehird, echo $PATH | wc -c 15:33:13 :P 15:33:28 304 but I have a bunch of unrelated crap in it that i used ages ago 15:33:44 AnMaster: also 15:33:44 97 on freebsd, 150 on gentoo 15:33:52 155 here 15:34:00 ehird, yes? 15:34:01 [ehird:/] % ls -l /usr/local/bin/python 15:34:01 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 24 2008-12-15 16:57 /usr/local/bin/python -> /usr/local/bin/python2.6 15:34:02 [ehird:/] % ls -l /usr/local/bin/python2.6 15:34:04 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 63 2008-12-15 16:52 /usr/local/bin/python2.6 -> /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/bin/python2.6 15:34:08 right 15:34:16 ehird, tell me, why is the first one not a relative symlink? 15:34:17 568, I win 15:34:23 (windows) 15:34:26 AnMaster: Dunno. 15:34:26 Asztal, err going low was the goal 15:34:32 Yes, he was being sarcastic. 15:34:36 I set my own goals :D 15:34:44 Asztal, fine :) 15:34:47 ehird@rutian:~$ echo $PATH 15:34:47 /usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/games 15:34:57 /usr/games should be at the start :| 15:34:58 here's a good way to chear 15:35:01 $ echo $PATH 15:35:01 *cheat 15:35:03 /sbin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/games:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/root/bin 15:35:05 which is odd 15:35:07 the single most important directory on a unix system 15:35:07 $ PATH=""; echo $PATH | wc -c 15:35:09 since X11 isn't installed 15:35:12 on that freebsd box 15:35:14 guess what that prints (where the $ is the prompt) 15:35:17 ais523: YOU ONLY CHEAT YOURSELF 15:35:26 zsh: command not found: wc 15:35:30 I WIN 15:35:34 that's a base 255 number 15:35:40 well, yes, although not zsh for me 15:35:41 ais523, "sh: command not found" 15:35:43 or something like that 15:35:56 >>> sum(map(ord,a)) 15:35:56 2415 15:36:02 that can't be right 15:36:02 oh 15:36:05 I need the * 255 15:36:26 178431884530883387476741383738549825960794060434521223987627869 15:36:29 that's how long my PATH is. 15:36:31 ehird, what? 15:36:41 AnMaster: ehird interpreted their path as a base 255 number for some reason 15:36:45 ah 15:36:46 no 15:36:48 I did ais523's command 15:36:49 given that there are 256 possibilities for bytes 15:36:49 and got this 15:36:50 zsh: command not found: wc 15:36:53 oh, ok 15:36:56 so that's obviously my path length as a base 256 number 15:37:05 oh wait it's actually 196770863739160564595263608359723940742411945884540670408947555 15:37:11 haha 15:37:16 btw, you'd probably better restart that shell 15:37:16 unless you have some way to get your path back to normal 15:37:29 "source .zshrc" would do it. 15:37:30 ais523, . /etc/profile? 15:37:32 but I just closed it. 15:37:50 ais523, you could just do it in a subshell 15:37:51 fun fact: my .zshrc loads my .bash_profile 15:37:54 and that's where my PATH is. 15:37:57 by doing ( ) around it 15:38:04 i don't know why either 15:38:04 (PATH=""; echo $PATH | wc -c) 15:38:05 yes, I know 15:38:10 I thought the joke was funnier this way 15:38:17 heh 15:38:44 ehird, err it isn't base 256 15:38:48 it is base 128 15:39:04 "zsh: command not found: wc" 15:39:06 that's a sequence of bytes. 15:39:11 a byte is 0..255 15:39:19 ehird, yes but notice all are below 127 15:39:24 heh, 879 characters in MSYS. :) 15:39:24 444 15:39:29 that's a base 5 number 15:39:30 so I suggest they are in fact signed 15:39:34 because it has no digits above 4. 15:39:43 AnMaster: in fact, all are below 126 15:39:50 ais523, that too then 15:39:51 also, balanced base 256? 15:39:56 that would be ridiculous 15:40:01 ais523, sounds great 15:40:19 ais523, but how would it work? 15:40:39 AnMaster: the same way as balanced base 3 15:40:39 ais523, -256..256? 15:40:45 ah wait 15:40:46 and no, -128..127 15:40:50 -128..127 yes 15:40:54 ais523, signed char in fact 15:40:56 just like any well-behaving 8-bit signed char 15:41:00 in 2's complement 15:41:04 yes 15:41:25 incidentally, did you guys hear about the zune bug? 15:41:28 hm what is it for base 4.. quaternary? 15:41:33 all first generation 30gb zunes broke at exactly the same time 15:41:40 well, within an hour or so of each other 15:41:49 ehird, wtf? 15:41:50 ehird: yes, because the firmware didn't take the possibility of a leap year into account 15:41:53 yep 15:41:53 http://www.zuneboards.com/forums/zune-news/38143-cause-zune-30-leapyear-problem-isolated.html 15:41:55 hah 15:41:56 the code that caused the problem 15:41:57 hilarious 15:42:03 ais523, will they unbrick them? 15:42:13 or are they not bricked? 15:42:13 AnMaster: just reset the clock 15:42:26 so it doesn't go into that code path 15:42:31 AnMaster: apparently you can get them working again by draining the battery, then turning them on some time that isn't in 2008 15:42:42 ais523, and update the firmware? 15:42:42 ais523: which amounts to resetting the clock. 15:42:46 ehird: yes 15:42:48 AnMaster: they haven't released a fix yet 15:42:52 i guess they're waiting until tuesday :-P 15:42:55 ehird: actually, that is the fix they released 15:43:00 heh 15:43:05 they have 4 years to fix it 15:43:10 although wait that'll be 2012 15:43:14 we'll be dead by the time it matters. 15:43:17 oh shi- 15:43:21 ... 15:43:22 maybe 15:43:22 zunes 15:43:24 locking up 15:43:26 destroys the universe 15:43:30 :o 15:43:33 like, they power the dyson sphere we're in 15:43:35 and it like explodes 15:43:37 and the universe ends 15:43:38 ehird: or maybe the universe doesn't end in 2012? 15:43:42 ais523: SHUT UP 15:43:47 agreed 15:43:50 :D 15:44:00 why on earth 15:44:02 Badger: Badger Badger Badger Badger Badger Badger Badger Badger Badger Badger Badger 15:44:02 a loop 15:44:06 that makes no sense 15:44:06 IIRC Discordianism says it'll end in 9661, they thought it was 1996 but they were reading it upside-down 15:44:07 GregorR: MUSHROOM MUSHROOM 15:44:08 GregorR: GregorR GregorR GregorR GregorR GregorR GregorR GregorR GregorR GregorR 15:44:14 some simple math would be way faster 15:44:20 AnMaster: it's embedded software. 15:44:23 who knows what the fuck it's for. 15:44:29 ehird, it lacks integer division? 15:44:37 i bet it ends up as more efficient than arithmetic 15:44:40 could be 15:44:44 :D 15:45:05 although "year += 1"? please, everyone knows "++year" is faster 15:45:31 ehird: year += 1 is equivalent to ++year 15:45:34 ehird, only if the compiler really really sucked at optimising 15:45:36 no, you have to do asm("inc year") if you want the real power! 15:45:38 jesus fucking christ 15:45:39 '' 15:45:41 are you all DENSE 15:45:42 but in theory, both are faster than year++ without optimisation 15:45:44 YES 15:45:44 it means i'm making a goddamn JOKE 15:45:50 ehird, I was playing along 15:45:52 ofc, everyone optimises it away in practice 15:45:56 AnMaster: no, no you weren't 15:45:57 * Badger whacks ehird with a cluebat 15:45:58 playing along wiould be 15:46:01 15:45 no, you have to do asm("inc year") if you want the real power! 15:46:01 well, every even slightly optimising compiler 15:46:06 this: 15:46:07 15:45 ehird, only if the compiler really really sucked at optimising 15:46:08 is not playing along 15:46:09 but in theory, both are faster than year++ without optimisation <-- hm? 15:46:29 AnMaster: year++ has to initialise a temporary register to hold the old value of year, in theory 15:46:36 ais523, oh, right 15:46:39 in practice it makes no difference as any sane compiler notices it isn't used 15:46:49 Note to self: never, ever make a joke in #esoteric. 15:46:59 ehird: why not, I enjoy the resulting discussions 15:47:05 crazy people have no sense of humou 15:47:07 it's not a discussion, it's tedious crap that we all know 15:47:07 r 15:47:16 we all know it's optimized to be the same 15:47:19 that's why it's a joke 15:47:29 unless someone is confused, it can be taken as read that we get the bloody context 15:47:46 the context can still be interesting, though 15:47:53 :| 15:47:56 and just because you get it, doesn't mean that clog does. Or fungot. 15:47:56 ais523: man, this fucking sucks. teddy rubskin also has a presentation on wheat that i think about it. 15:48:16 * ais523 tries to figure out whether that's an argument for or against 15:48:43 ais523: fungot never gets anything though. 15:48:44 ehird: hey, i brought you here today. sonic heroes sucks. teddy rubskin also has a presentation on wheat that i think we're the only people who give two shits about you. do you ever think maybe it was your problem? maybe you just can't handle all the data i'm sending you. 15:48:45 nor does clog. 15:48:52 fungot is fast. 15:48:53 Badger: i mean, there's a huge grasshopper in here and he's flying all around! somebody get this grasshopper out of here, or is it just me? 15:48:54 fungot: that is a lot of data. 15:48:55 ehird: listen. that ball thing hurts. and that suit? it never comes off. 15:48:57 ^style 15:48:58 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa* speeches ss wp 15:49:02 i guessed it was PA 15:49:08 ^style pa 15:49:08 Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics) 15:49:28 "sonic heroes sucks." and the apparent large-amounts-of-verbatim-text tipped me off 15:49:41 also, profanity 15:49:42 ^style discworld 15:49:43 Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books) 15:49:46 i am the master of fungot 15:49:46 ehird: " oook?" said nanny, running along behind. he had a fnord look. 15:49:48 fungot: o hai 15:49:49 Badger: a flicker made her turn her head. the world isn't always as people see it." vimes hesitated. " i never said he was always the first to bustle up to vimes was mr boggis of the thieves' guild this morning?" 15:50:05 ^style speeches 15:50:05 Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg) 15:50:14 fungot, hello 15:50:15 uh-huuuhhh. 15:50:16 AnMaster: a popular origin cannot therefore be the characteristical distinction of a popular representative. this belongs equally to all parts of legislature the most odious and imbecile misgovernment. but, if i could say one word out of my wits. i don't allow any ghosts to bite me, and i do not remember that in speaking to you with a text, and i bless god for my safe fnord i know of no set of men living. these he does not unde 15:50:26 ^style 15:50:26 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches* ss wp 15:50:32 ^style ic 15:50:33 Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual) 15:50:39 that one rocks 15:50:39 PLEASE NOTE FUNGOT 15:50:39 fungot: o hai 15:50:40 Badger: e017 do you expect the logical and orthogonal behaviour?) 15:50:44 PLEASE NOTE fungot 15:50:44 ehird: the first intercal compiler apart from constant folding optimization). whitespace is ignored nearly everywhere; the only potential problems may be missing the shell `bash' which can be considered to be abstained from and therefore problems may be able to concatenate together your input is being linked to the optimizer can't guarantee at compile time in some ways than some other languages. 15:50:53 :DDDDDDDDDD 15:50:58 ais523: plz use this as the c-intercal manual 15:51:10 ehird: I could just run it through M-x dissociated-press 15:51:14 but it might garble the formatting 15:51:17 this is better 15:51:21 besides, I like the manual to actually be useful 15:51:21 ais523, wtf is M-x dissociated-press 15:51:25 ... 15:51:25 AnMaster: what fungot does 15:51:26 ais523: there are more limited.) he also invented in 1972, but you use, you can uninstall it by using an appropriate logic operation on them; and sets it to unweave from all other threads that is, 16- or 32-bit). 15:51:29 ^style ff7 15:51:29 Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII) 15:51:30 if I've got the name right 15:51:30 ais523, ah 15:51:34 fungot: wuh 15:51:34 Badger: spying, murder... you just might be pretty exciting. i almost fell over.... 15:51:35 fungot: Hello 15:51:36 GregorR: please help me! the power of science. 15:51:36 actually ais523 dissociated-press is letter based 15:51:41 hahaha 15:51:42 ehird: I think it has the option 15:51:43 those two were great 15:51:50 ^style 15:51:51 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7* fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 15:51:57 ^style irc 15:51:57 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 15:52:01 fungot: Hi 15:52:01 GregorR: it's an example 15:52:08 ... ohhhh kay :P 15:52:11 fungot, what is? 15:52:11 AnMaster: name ' n' and skipping it... not sure i have a problem with 15:52:17 fungot: madness! 15:52:17 Badger: it hurts." minutes ago! :p) 15:52:23 ^style agora 15:52:23 Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical) 15:52:24 fungot, really? 15:52:24 AnMaster: each player has not made before the start of the voting period. 15:52:25 fungot: WHEREAS 15:52:26 ehird: that the parties) a successful revolt has been a player ceases to be 15:52:31 fungot: ha, Revolution 15:52:31 ehird: the recordkeepor of a currency, and the 15:52:34 fungot: WHICH ONE 15:52:34 ehird: the assessor is responsible for communicating the group's vizier. 15:52:35 ehird, nah that one isn't good 15:52:39 yes it is 15:52:39 what is ss? 15:52:41 ^style ss 15:52:41 Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings) 15:52:41 15:52 ehird: the assessor is responsible for communicating the group's vizier. 15:52:42 ehird: par. good, my lord, and master 15:52:43 that's golden 15:52:44 ah 15:52:46 hahaha 15:52:47 hello fungot 15:52:47 ^style agora 15:52:47 AnMaster: immortal gods, i am no fighter: i am 15:52:47 Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical) 15:52:52 .. 15:52:53 fungot: aaaaaa 15:52:53 ehird: ( +k) when a player is electee to that office during that month, every player's lobbying strength of 15:52:57 fungot: of. 15:52:57 ehird: b) if this rule defers to all active sentences. the 15:53:00 fungot: the 15:53:01 ehird: the speaker publicly announces that e 15:53:03 fungot: e... 15:53:04 ehird: 7) a list of all players 15:53:07 fungot: MAKE UP YOUR MIND 15:53:10 I think it's treating \n as \n 15:53:13 and the word wrapping messes it up 15:53:24 ^style 15:53:24 Available: agora* alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 15:53:31 ^style wp 15:53:31 Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages) 15:53:39 fungot: CONSENSUS 15:53:41 ... 15:53:45 someone else say hi to fungot 15:53:57 fungot, hellp 15:53:58 AnMaster: the explanation of the elijah story doesn't hold up, but to index other articles sorted, perhaps, for those pictures available, perhaps this one straight from the souls of black folk. but, i think 15:54:03 hello* 15:54:07 fungot: you think what 15:54:07 ehird: if you have any questions please ask them at the wikipedia:media copyright questionsmedia copyright questions page. thank you.!-- template:missing rationale2 15:54:14 ais523: sentient templates! 15:54:16 fungot: really? 15:54:16 ehird: the plan is to move forward. thanks user:naadapriyanaadapriya ( user talk:naadapriyatalk) 22:24, 19 may 2005 ( utc) 15:54:24 fungot: what plan ey? 15:54:25 ehird: and, dab, words like pop-culture should not be present because other neighbourhoods are not add the article about most existentialists being atheistic seems to be a calming grounding influence, a bit of old-fashioned stunt casting, spiner downplays the timing. 15:54:58 fungot doesn't really seem to strip MediaWiki markup well 15:54:58 ais523: apparently she wasn't the first person to discover something is in some kind new to me, deserve to be listed in wikipedia. 15:57:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:11:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:51:20 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:25:08 -!- moozilla has joined. 17:41:30 oh btw 17:41:34 Happy mailman day 17:41:46 * AnMaster just got a few of them from various freebsd lists 17:45:19 -!- metazilla has joined. 17:45:20 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:45:27 AnMaster: I beat you to it. 17:45:28 "If this design sounds familiar it’s probably because it’s exactly like Lucene. " 17:45:31 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 17:46:14 ehird, didn't see you saying it 17:46:19 when did you do that 17:46:30 a bit after I came in here first 17:47:36 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:47:43 -!- moozilla has joined. 17:55:42 ehird, hm you were disconnected today? 17:55:54 My bouncer thought it was in #esoteric, it wasn't. 17:55:59 hm ok 17:56:09 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.01.01 17:56:12 * ehird (n=ehird@eso-std.org) has left #esoteric ("Furthermore,") 17:56:12 * ehird (n=ehird@eso-std.org) has joined #esoteric 17:56:12 * ehird (n=ehird@eso-std.org) has left #esoteric ("Furthermore,") 17:56:12 * ehird (n=ehird@eso-std.org) has joined #esoteric 17:56:12 that was some _nasty_ bouncerfuckage 17:56:15 ah right 17:58:47 especially as new year used to be march 1 it wasn't duh :P <-- if it had been me you would have said something about my lack of humor 17:59:05 AnMaster: your lack of humour is a running joke. 17:59:22 ehird, yes right, except only for you 17:59:22 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:59:28 -!- moozilla has joined. 17:59:32 but i am hilarious 17:59:49 no you aren't 18:00:02 Monty Python is a good example of "sometimes hilarious" 18:00:53 no, I'm very hilarious 18:01:34 GregorR, oh http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30230927&l=7b22a&id=1055580469, wtf is the thing on the side of the glasses? 18:02:07 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:02:12 -!- moozilla has joined. 18:02:13 ehird, maybe you know? You linked it 18:02:24 AnMaster: those glasses are a SCREEN 18:02:29 ah 18:02:32 it's a DISPLAY 18:02:33 :DDDDDDD 18:02:33 right, I heard of them 18:02:38 I never seen them though 18:02:45 such glasses with built in displays 18:02:49 cool 18:02:54 what do you use it for? map? 18:03:22 more like HACKING INTERFACE 18:03:25 of CYBERWEB 18:03:39 ehird, don't be silly, this isn't some low budget movie 18:03:46 it looks like it 18:04:02 well yes, but it doesn't mean Holy Wood is right 18:04:16 if they were it would emit light 18:04:19 they are always right 18:04:20 also, they do 18:04:22 it's just invisible light 18:06:13 heh 18:11:21 I should be boring and write another markov chain. i think I know enough now to get it to handle punctuation correctly. 18:11:33 ehird, heh 18:11:41 I'm not sure how to handle nested punctuation though. 18:11:43 ehird, how does lzma use it btw? 18:11:48 That is, how can I make sure parentheses are always balanced? 18:11:51 Without just adding them to the end. 18:11:55 I guess I could recurse or something. 18:12:32 ehird, they aren't always balanced on irc normally 18:13:06 so what, i always balance my parens :P 18:13:11 well aprt from :) 18:13:14 but :) is a seperate token 18:13:52 ehird, and variants like ;) and such 18:13:56 Yeah. 18:14:12 -!- metazilla has joined. 18:14:18 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:14:22 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 18:14:33 ehird, still recursion sounds like it could work as long as you somehow limit the depth 18:14:50 -!- metazilla has joined. 18:14:51 would be nasty if it got stuck 18:14:51 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:15:00 in deep recursion 18:15:02 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 18:15:11 heh, "in the deep lands of recursion"? 18:15:21 AnMaster: problem is, when you reach EOF to stop recursing, that's end of messag 18:15:22 e 18:15:23 thriller movie 18:15:26 so it won't work parenthically 18:15:41 Hello, who are you? I am cool (a word for being awesome. Anyway, I must go now. Bye.) Actually wait, I'm not going. 18:15:44 ah you mean you get lots of end of sentences then? 18:15:47 ^ that's not the best usage of parentheses 18:15:50 indeed 18:15:54 but if you just wait until ), that rarely happens 18:16:03 ehird, it could get too long 18:16:05 as a close parenthesis rarely follows another word compared to, you know, other words 18:16:13 maybe I could use a weighted markov chain like bayes does 18:16:18 comex coded it I don't know how it works 18:16:22 oooh I like that 18:16:26 (it "directs" it to a certain token) 18:16:28 a reverse bayesian filter? 18:16:34 nah 18:16:36 could be used to *GENERATE* spam 18:16:37 bayes is a nomic-playing bot 18:16:41 ah 18:16:42 right 18:16:46 it's called so because it votes using a bayesian spam filter 18:16:49 anyway, unfortunately it takes like 18:16:51 right 18:16:57 (n!)^2 or something storage space 18:16:59 for the directed stuff :-P 18:17:03 ouch 18:17:07 well, not that bad 18:17:09 but it's biggg 18:17:59 ehird, well what is the value of n 18:18:22 dunno. 18:18:24 a few MB? GB? 18:18:27 all I know is it's way bigger than the actual chain 18:18:57 ehird, right 18:20:11 ehird, hm it would be cool if you could make your mail server somehow return "no such user" to spammers *after* you received it.. 18:20:14 hm 18:20:21 doesn't work I guess 18:20:28 most mail servers silently accept bad addresses :\ 18:20:30 or at least some 18:20:31 you can reject with no such user 18:20:32 anyway 18:20:41 i once made a plan for an elaborate spam-fighting system 18:20:46 ehird, reject with no such user and they will think the email is invalid 18:20:48 but i was too lazy to writ eit 18:20:48 oh? details? 18:20:53 remember it? 18:20:57 basically 18:21:03 you know those honeypot scripts 18:21:06 yes 18:21:07 that give a bunch of fake emails 18:21:07 I run one 18:21:08 and a link for more 18:21:13 it'd that, but improved by loads 18:21:19 on domain foobar.com 18:21:19 it'd be 18:21:28 dsfjeii@honeypot.foobar.com 18:21:30 now 18:21:36 whenever a spambot sent mail to one of those 18:21:47 it'd ban them from the mail server 18:21:48 well it wouldn't contain honeypot hopefully 18:21:50 and mark them as spam 18:21:56 that address 18:21:57 forever 18:22:03 ehird, yes that is how honeypots work 18:22:06 kind of 18:22:06 no, it's not 18:22:16 honeypot cgi scripts generally just give fake addresses 18:22:18 to pollute their database 18:22:31 this one waits for them to actually spam, and then permanently marks them as a spammer 18:22:33 ehird, oh I have mine set up to give emails to a special blackhole server 18:22:37 that auto blacklists 18:22:40 on the real server 18:22:42 link? 18:22:46 a sec 18:23:02 ehird, I placed it in the footer on the supertux website iirc 18:23:26 note that my real solution for such things is to let google figure it out for me. :P 18:23:41 http://supertux.lethargik.org/ I don't see it 18:23:47 no on the wiki 18:24:13 lol, old supertux is so cheesy 18:24:14 ah yes 18:24:26 also 18:24:27 ehird, http://supertux.lethargik.org/development/information.php 18:24:29 I don't see it yo 18:24:46 ehird, check the source 18:24:50 AnMaster: that doesn't work, that license thing 18:24:51 humans don't see it 18:25:02 ehird, see the source 18:25:05 yes 18:25:07 but I mean the license notice 18:25:16 if that works, the batshit insane lady who sued archive.org for copying her web pages when her page footer forbid it in english is RIGHT 18:25:19 and... she's not 18:25:40 also, needs moar emails 18:25:47 to give a higher chance of being spammed 18:26:02 ehird, anyway the emails in it are valid, there is a global project for this 18:26:19 project honeypot 18:26:31 i'm pretty sure project honeypot is different 18:26:32 ehird, it basically does what you suggested 18:26:46 http://www.spampoison.com/ t his is the most common anti-spam thing i've seen 18:29:26 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:31:22 hrm. 18:31:37 AnMaster: great now you've got me playing supertux 18:31:43 ehird, haha 18:31:51 only because I don't have super mario bros to hand though :P 18:31:59 :P 18:32:11 i am awful at supertux 18:32:14 can't beat level 5 :|||||| 18:32:25 ehird, oh? 0.1.3 or 0.3.1? 18:32:30 0.1.3 18:32:34 right 18:32:38 more balanced 18:32:41 anyway 18:32:45 I can beat that level :P 18:32:56 heh the older version is better? 18:33:15 ehird, we adopted an odd/even versioning scheme 18:33:19 after 0.1 18:33:26 so that is why there is no 0.2 18:33:35 right, but 0.1.3 is better? 18:33:51 ehird, currently it is more balanced yes 18:34:02 0.3.1 has lots of cool new features, but some are a bit buggy 18:34:15 also, there is not enough fuel in my body to describe my hatred of odd/even versioning systems. 18:34:18 and the game isn't always well balanced when it comes to speed and jumping force and such 18:34:26 ehird, not my choice 18:34:29 :D 18:34:53 ehird, "the somewhat smaller bath"? 18:35:01 ? 18:35:07 is that the level name 18:35:15 i dont think so 18:35:20 for some odd reason I don't see the numbers here 18:35:54 AnMaster: the frosted fields 18:36:19 that is level 6.. 18:36:23 oh 18:36:23 k 18:36:53 * AnMaster is playing it now 18:37:01 was a while ago I played 0.1.x 18:38:51 ooh, a bug 18:38:56 oh? 18:39:27 yeah. 18:39:29 i was standing on air 18:39:32 err 18:39:41 ehird, could be invisible secret block 18:39:45 no 18:39:47 for some secret area 18:39:50 no 18:39:52 ok 18:40:01 there *are* a few such 18:40:16 just screenshot and I can tell you if that was the case 18:41:02 ehird, ? 18:41:03 level 1: http://xs435.xs.to/xs435/09014/picture1775.png 18:41:06 oh shit 18:41:08 it didn't work 18:41:08 XD 18:41:11 fucking sdl 18:41:16 ehird, no clue about that 18:41:23 basically 18:41:24 level 1 18:41:24 screenshots work for me here on supertux 18:41:29 the bunch of block 18:41:29 s 18:41:31 wooden 18:41:32 with coins in them 18:41:36 hm right 18:41:40 third from the right box, I had destroyed 18:41:43 and I could walk over it 18:41:47 but I dropped down a tiny bit but stayed there 18:41:49 stopped when I jump 18:41:53 Collision box thing I think 18:42:10 hm 18:42:12 level 1? 18:42:21 ah 18:42:27 ehird, right 18:42:33 did you have a block on either side 18:42:36 yeo 18:42:37 yep 18:42:42 so it was a 1-width 18:42:43 right 18:42:53 ehird, known 0.1.3 bug, that one is fixed in 0.3.x 18:42:57 kay 18:43:03 along with support for slope added 18:43:07 slopes* 18:43:14 and a lot more 18:43:38 is there a debug mode that unlocks all the levels? :D 18:43:57 there is a debug mode with cheat keys 18:44:04 as a side effect it draws collrects 18:44:06 for everything 18:44:19 which looks pretty ugly 18:44:22 ew 18:44:28 ehird, 0.3.x have a console however 18:44:50 since it has a scripting language built in for cut scenes and switches in levels and such 18:44:55 it is used for console too 18:45:05 called squirrel 18:45:12 like lua but less known and fewer features 18:45:18 first rule of scripting languages: write your game in an existing one with eval and use that :P 18:45:20 again not my choice 18:45:36 also wtf you can do small jumps if you don't hold space down 18:45:36 WH 18:45:37 ehird, heh, it is using an existing scripting language 18:45:38 WHY 18:45:46 ehird, eh? what do you mean 18:45:56 if you hold space down for a millisecond more you go high 18:45:58 but otherwise you just hop tiny bit 18:46:33 ehird, yes that makes sense, if you had a joystick it would be related to the axis 18:46:37 iirc 18:46:52 or wait, joystick is 0.3.x only? 18:46:53 hm 18:47:04 ehird, anyway it is a feature and useful 18:47:25 if you want to take a small jump, like cave and low ceiling 18:47:40 if you hit your head then it will be harder to make a long jump 18:49:26 * ehird tries his new play style: hold down control and jump everywhere and never hit any enemies 18:49:33 if you do, only hit them without trying to 18:49:48 ehird, less score then 18:49:49 dead 18:49:50 :D 18:49:54 ehird, get the egg 18:50:00 and fireflower 18:50:10 lot easier then 18:50:13 meh :D 18:50:25 ehird, the egg looks like a snowball though 18:50:54 :) 18:54:47 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:00:11 ehird, also project honeypot is like that: http://www.projecthoneypot.org/httpbl_api 19:00:23 only issue is dynamic ips 19:01:55 -!- Asztal has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:02:06 -!- Asztal has joined. 19:08:00 AnMaster: Presently the display doesn't display anything, I don't have the computer :P 19:08:06 AnMaster: But it will be a general-purpose computer. 19:08:16 A GPS-powered map would be one excellent use for it. 19:08:22 GregorR, yes indeed 19:08:26 what about traffic info? 19:08:27 or news? 19:08:34 It's a computer. 19:08:41 GregorR, yes but with an antenna 19:08:41 The computer I'm hooking it to has wifi and bluetooth 19:08:48 hm ok 19:08:58 GregorR, how large is the computer? 19:09:04 http://openpandora.org/ 19:09:14 oh quite small 19:09:19 That's the idea :) 19:09:25 GregorR, yeah of course 19:09:37 Whole setup should cost me ~$700 19:09:40 GregorR, but yes gps + map would rock 19:09:47 and something to calculate best route 19:10:22 walking gps 19:10:23 XD 19:10:25 GregorR, a pitty you won't be able to overlay the directions directly on the perspective 19:10:36 that would be awesome, walking gps with overlayed directions 19:10:39 like arrow showing what door to actually enter 19:10:43 I'd never have to ask for directions! 19:11:08 ehird, indeed, and not just directions on a map like in a car navigator, but directions pointing to the actual features in the real view 19:11:22 that would be impossible though 19:11:27 i knowwww 19:11:30 why impossible tho 19:11:32 its possible 19:11:34 jus tvery hard 19:11:48 It would definitely be possible, but probably not with this setup. 19:11:49 correction: virtually impossible 19:12:10 ehird, you would need to identify the features of the view, like street corners, and so on 19:12:28 and figure out current exact orientation of the head 19:12:37 that's not impossible. that's hard, but robots DO exist you know 19:12:41 yes 19:12:41 with, you know, sensors. 19:12:43 that process image data. 19:12:47 yes indeed 19:12:51 so in the future, yes, it'd/it'll be possible 19:12:56 its not that unfeasable :) 19:13:01 *infeasible 19:13:11 ehird, it is infeasible for GregorR with his current setup 19:13:53 GregorR, should also have restaurant advice, oh and hat shop locations 19:15:15 :) 19:15:17 an actual joke! 19:15:27 it should update him with choosemyhat.com results in REAL TIME 19:18:14 ehird, nice 19:18:50 GregorR, do people often comment on your hats when they meet you 19:18:58 brb 19:25:05 GregorR, I listened to some of your music pieces btw, quite good 19:25:50 link? 19:25:56 i've heard the Kill Yourself song and that's about it XD 19:26:12 http://codu.org/music.php 19:26:48 GregorR, I believe those 3 for a game would fit quite well into a fantasy game, say wesnoth or something like that 19:26:52 which game was it for? 19:27:29 ehird, I like his "Opus 8" 19:27:54 haven't listened to 9 yet, 6 or below 19:28:02 * AnMaster is currently listening to 7 19:28:34 I like it :) 19:29:09 * GregorR reappears 19:29:26 :) 19:29:42 People often comment on my hats, yes. 19:29:57 The comments are very varied, and different hats get different amounts of comments, often not in line with what you might think. 19:30:06 GregorR, right 19:30:08 For example, the red fez gets tons of comments, but the green fez gets virtually none. 19:30:19 GregorR, now that I hadn't expected 19:30:24 why none for the green? 19:30:27 it is too odd? 19:30:35 I guess, Idonno, I'm not psychic :) 19:30:40 hm 19:31:10 At a certain point of strangeness people just stop talking at me at all ... when it gets really cold outside I wear a cape, and at that point people just don't look at me unless they know me :P 19:31:21 haha 19:31:38 GregorR, the recording of op 7 sounds a bit low quality, not sure how to define it 19:31:44 also what about the game question 19:31:51 That recording is really old, yeah, it sucks :( 19:31:56 And the game was Battle for Wesnoth 19:31:59 hah 19:32:02 I was making a campaign which I've since abandoned :P 19:32:16 GregorR, I like wesnoth, and I like the game music for it 19:32:27 GregorR, anyway I like 7, but not that recording of it 19:32:28 So do I, I just wanted unique music for my campaign *shrugs* 19:33:02 GregorR, and your game music for it is quite good, is it recorded real life or with really high quality soundfont? 19:33:27 Soundfont 19:33:36 what one if I may ask? :) 19:34:09 GregorR, I would really wish a sound font with a good piano, too few free ones available though :/ 19:34:19 wish I had* 19:34:20 'twasn't a free one X-P 19:34:24 Came with my keyboard. 19:34:25 aargh! 19:34:45 I recorded it on my keyboard, I didn't write it as a MIDI, I just played it. 19:35:55 GregorR, one thing about your opus 9, you seem to change style a bit in it to more bass chords (not sure if that is the right English terminology... I'm not a native speaker as you know). 19:36:11 I think it may be the recording, or it is a bit heavy on the bass chords 19:36:32 but overall I like it very much 19:37:05 GregorR, can we here you play "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" at some point? :D 19:37:10 Opus 9 was a tune that was stuck in my head ... I didn't write it in the same way as I write most of my pieces, as the entire tune from beginning to end had just evolved as this weird tune I whistled. 19:38:57 GregorR, well I don't have good soundfont 19:39:15 so opus 9, well maybe you should upload an ogg of it with a good soundfont? 19:39:50 Only if you can provide a soundfont better than the one I already used :P 19:39:56 Oh! 19:40:10 I forgot to provide a link to the ogg D-8 19:40:10 eh? 19:40:10 oh you misread what I said I bet 19:40:15 GregorR, yes 19:40:19 There actually is a .ogg version already, made with freepats 19:41:06 GregorR, one things that confuse me about your music is that you suddenly change tempo and style in the middle at some point where I wouldn't have expected it 19:41:30 Yes. Yes I do :P 19:42:21 GregorR, I'm more used to classical music that doesn't do that. Anyway what about you playing (on a real piano preferably :) "Eine kleine Nachtmusik"? 19:42:26 I try to write in a stream-of-thought style ... I rarely repeat anything more than twice, I reuse themes but only in totally different contexts, and as a result it takes me a very long time to write anything. 19:42:42 I could do that, but I don't have a real piano :P 19:42:55 I love music that changes style and tempo unexpectedly for no reason 19:43:13 GregorR, ah, what about something by Liszt then? :P 19:43:20 Sorry 19:43:39 So, Eine kleine Nachtmusik is acceptable only on a real piano, but Liszt can be played on whatever shitty keyboard I can dredge up? :P 19:43:54 GregorR, both both are acceptable on keyboard 19:44:01 Oh, you might be interested, http://codu.org/music/GRegor-op10-beta2.ogg 19:44:02 but I think making good recordings would be quite fun 19:44:08 beta :D 19:44:12 Not my final recording of that (probably), not "released" per se 19:45:10 GregorR, anyway Liszt would be extremely hard... 19:45:53 say "La Campanella" (originally for violin, but at least Liszt made a piano version, no idea if it differs much) 19:46:27 GregorR, I like your op10 19:46:38 so far much less random changes in style 19:47:21 what's wrong with those 19:47:28 X-D 19:47:31 music should be surprising :D 19:47:32 ehird, it is a matter of taste 19:47:44 so yes highly subjective 19:47:45 The first section is 7/8, then 6/8, then 7/8, don't those count for anything? :P 19:48:17 GregorR, hm when did the first change happen 19:48:32 I might not have reached it yet 19:48:39 IT WAS SO SUBTLE YOU DIDN'T EVEN NOTICE IT 19:48:40 ;) 19:48:54 GregorR, I'm around 2 minutes and 30 seconds into it 19:49:13 It's at around 1:15, you're well into the 6/8 section 19:49:18 right 19:49:24 then I didn't notice it 19:49:38 GregorR, or it seemed natural maybe 19:50:00 GregorR, some differences I noted but they seemed to fit in there very well :) 19:50:27 GregorR, plan to become a composer? 19:50:45 ok 19:50:48 there was a change 19:50:50 that didn't fit 19:51:10 Yes, that's why I'm at graduate school for CS, it fits right into my music plans :P 19:51:25 ok so you don't plan that then 19:51:49 No, it's just a hobby. 19:52:14 ah it was the end somehow, ok then that worked 19:52:21 around 06:something 19:52:44 GregorR, yes I like that op 10 :) 19:52:46 Yeah, the 6/8-to-7/8 change is just a BAM 19:52:47 very much so 19:53:10 GregorR, you play the piano very well 19:54:09 Well thank you. 19:54:19 But I'm far better at CS, it's just a less visible skill :P 19:54:36 true 19:55:33 GregorR, just wondering, would you be able to perform something like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Liszt-La_Campanella-Greiss.ogg 19:56:15 if yes you should maybe consider playing piano instead of cs ;P 19:56:24 The usual answer is "with enough practice" :P 19:56:34 GregorR, and that would be "a lot"? 19:56:43 This is #esoteric. 19:56:48 ehird, yes? 19:56:54 Suggesting someone do music instead of CS is unlikely to be fruitful. 19:57:02 ehird, ah good point 19:57:03 From what I've heard so far, probably not /so/ much of a lot. 19:57:12 One sec, I'll get a recording of the most complicated thing I've played. 19:57:25 :) 19:59:17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4iaugs_6uQ (This is not me, and no, I haven't played this as /well/ as this guy, I've just played it :P ) 20:00:28 (By the way, it only gets difficult after a couple minutes) 20:01:06 playing it now 20:01:16 I love nocturnes, by the way :P 20:01:31 hmmmmm.... 20:01:58 then "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" should fit you well 20:01:59 :) 20:06:05 Note the small "related videos" links on the right, in particular the ones where the guy is wearing an unfortunate choice of clothing colors and so it looks like he's performing nude in the small pic :P 20:06:18 hm? 20:06:25 yes 20:06:30 I just found that amusing :P 20:07:27 GregorR, hm... quite nice that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4iaugs_6uQ 20:12:55 Oh yeah, it's 2009 20:13:13 That means I have to remember to mark my files every time I edit them for a while :P 20:13:46 GregorR, I just sed them to update copyright header once at the start of the year 20:16:08 uh, you should just put the copyright of when you wrote them. 20:16:45 ehird, yes I do 20:17:02 but I mean updating to say 2007-2009 instead of 2007-2008 20:17:28 -!- moozilla has joined. 20:23:39 GregorR, there still? 20:23:51 what do you think of these http://www.tangento.net/FaeriesAireandDeathWaltzGIF1.gif and http://www.tangento.net/FaeriesAireandDeathWaltzGIF2.gif 20:24:08 :) 20:24:14 ;P 20:24:47 old 20:24:53 AnMaster: those are two seperate pieces 20:24:55 not one 20:24:58 totally unrelated 20:25:38 ehird, why do you think so? 20:25:44 they seem related shrug 20:25:52 they're not. 20:25:55 I know this because i've seen it 50 times. 20:26:03 your source is... a filename. 20:26:32 I like "Cool timpani with small fan" :P 20:26:39 GregorR, heh 20:26:47 ehird, possible, what is the name of the second one then? 20:27:01 Dunno. 20:27:36 GregorR, in the first image there are some made up notes: half notes with flags 20:27:50 the whole thing is invalid 20:27:59 (wrong number of notes for a bar or sth IIRC) 20:28:10 ehird, the second one is correct for number / bar for many parts at least 20:28:17 I entered some of it into a midi program 20:28:25 what does it sound like? 20:28:32 ehird, horrible :P 20:28:55 was the bit below "With much passionfruit" 20:28:57 that I entered 20:29:32 ehird, if you like a rosegarden file I could upload it somewhere 20:29:44 "With pesto" 20:29:53 AnMaster: a midi would be nice. 20:30:10 obviously the MIDI rendering didn't follow the all-important "through the frog" and "whip it good" instructions 20:30:18 ehird, ok I could export it 20:30:20 Asztal, true 20:31:40 ehird, http://omploader.org/vMTJ4Nw 20:32:06 I've heard a full recording of that. 20:32:09 it is just one instrument, and two bars 20:32:13 ehird, huh? 20:32:16 AnMaster: a full midi 20:32:19 I'd need to find it 20:32:25 yes please 20:32:44 also, I LIKE the sound of that 20:32:52 ehird, it doesn't sound too bad 20:32:59 though not my cup of tea 20:33:04 Do they make multi-port USB wall chargers ...? 20:33:13 GregorR, haha 20:33:34 I didn't even know there was anything called "usb wall charger" 20:33:52 GregorR, idea: attach a powered hub to it? 20:34:23 I wouldn't trust that. The USB wall chargers are totally non-standards-compliant, they just dump as much power as they can manage at the USB device, so any device not intended for them can get zapped. 20:34:40 Plus, the powered USB hub would actually speak USB, so it would be unwilling to charge at the full rate. 20:35:22 AnMaster: http://10e.org/file/death.mid incorrectly calls it the death waltz one, but oh well 20:35:29 it actually sounds nce 20:35:30 nice 20:35:34 as in, it has actual structure and melody 20:37:54 AnMaster: ping 20:37:58 yes 20:38:00 listening 20:38:02 still alive 20:38:35 -!- Warrigal has joined. 20:39:09 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:39:34 I think the good old days of bsmnt_bot are over. 20:39:41 ehird, I actually prefer more mainstream classical music 20:39:46 Warrigal, that was ages ago 20:39:49 AnMaster: It still sounds nice. 20:40:11 I want to make a replacement. 20:40:12 that's your opinion :P 20:40:22 AnMaster: it has melody and form. 20:40:24 and structure. 20:40:24 Warrigal, what did the bot do now again? 20:40:29 it's better than a lot of stuff. 20:40:32 ehird, true, but could any human play it? 20:40:32 And a simpler one, with none of this chroot jail nonsense. 20:40:33 also, it evaluated python. 20:40:38 AnMaster: it did EVERYTHING! 20:40:42 It evaluated Python, yeah. 20:40:43 Warrigal: you need that if you want python 20:40:52 but hey, I'm totally happy to remove your home directory. 20:41:15 read only home too 20:41:18 in the chroot jail 20:41:29 I'd rather just create a new user. :-P 20:41:38 Warrigal, still very risky 20:41:45 really trust us 20:41:46 AnMaster: I have a normish user account. 20:41:52 ehird, hm ok and? 20:41:57 I could already do anythign I could do with a user on normish. 20:42:02 I'm assumign Warrigal is goign to put it up on normish. 20:42:09 I'm assuming so as well. 20:42:11 normish hm 20:42:16 ? 20:42:20 which one is that 20:42:24 normish.org? 20:42:28 It's a nomic./ 20:42:32 Warrigal is connected via it. 20:42:43 oh so it won't be in this channel then 20:42:47 er, why not? 20:42:53 Warrigal is connected via normish. 20:42:55 Try //whois. 20:42:59 hm ok 20:43:04 It's a server. 20:43:06 Running Linux. 20:43:14 right 20:43:16 The bot would run on normish.org, yeah. 20:43:24 As www-data. >:-) 20:43:33 Warrigal, no that would be too evil 20:43:39 and risky 20:43:41 I'll be happy to redirect your homepage to Last Measure. 20:43:41 Since, um, /var/www is world-writable and anyone can run anything as www-data. 20:43:45 AnMaster: anyone can write to /var/www. 20:43:53 But via a bot i'm less likely to lose my account. 20:43:54 ouch ok 20:44:16 ehird, depends on who does it via that bot, you could still see who placed the bot there 20:44:16 Warrigal: noooooooooooooooo 20:44:25 what bsmntbombdood said 20:44:28 there is only one true bsmnt_bot 20:44:32 and bsmntbombdood must run it. 20:44:39 bsmntbombdood, run it then 20:44:41 anything else is Right Bad Sacrelige. 20:45:02 the server i was running it in is no more 20:45:16 bsmntbombdood: I has a server. 20:45:19 <.< 20:45:22 >.> 20:45:23 :) 20:45:33 hm 20:45:42 bsmntbombdood: ? :3 20:45:53 I think I'll create a Normish proposal to give me a puppet. 20:45:55 I WOULD BE MOST HONORED TO HOST EL "BS MNT BOT". 20:46:03 hmm, I'm tired. 20:46:04 I think. 20:46:16 you could make it into one of those machines where the wheels with symbols spins and you get 3 in a row or whatever, but with smilies instead 20:46:17 And create an empty file in /var/active-players so it can't be an active player, of course. 20:46:24 ehird: then host it 20:46:26 so you should get specific combos 20:46:30 Or hmm. 20:46:36 bsmntbombdood: only if you put it up. Anything else is great sacrelidgdgdgdge. 20:46:59 ehird: root access is required for the chroot 20:47:06 bsmntbombdood: I could do that part. 20:47:14 im gonna appropriate normish, k? 20:47:53 bsmntbombdood: Shall I give you a shell account, then? 20:48:00 i suppose 20:49:59 you could use some sudo trick to do a safe transfer into the chroot ehird 20:50:09 I got this set up for 32-bit chroot at home 20:50:14 Yes, I probably will. 20:50:53 We want adduser with --disabled-login and --no-create-home... 20:51:10 in /etc/sudoers: anmaster ALL = NOPASSWD: /usr/bin/chroot /mnt/gentoo32 /usr/bin/sudo -u anmaster /bin/bash -c ( cd ~ ; /bin/bash ) 20:51:43 for /mnt/gentoo32/etc/sudoers it is enough to have the allow everything for root default line 20:52:05 then the user just runs: linux32 sudo /usr/bin/chroot ${JAIL_DIR} /usr/bin/sudo -u "anmaster" /bin/bash -c "( cd ~ ; /bin/bash )" 20:52:38 where JAIL_DIR is set in the script I copied the line from... 20:52:44 ehird, works great :) 20:53:08 sudo in jail doesn't even need to be suid, since only root runs it, it could be executable by root only 20:54:06 Our activate script, http://normish.org/root/usr/bin/nomic/rtbls/activate, is... rather convoluted, I find. 20:54:12 ehird, *as far as I know* this is safe 20:54:17 not 100% sure though 20:54:20 Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. 20:54:41 $((($(ls -1 . | wc -l)+1)/2)) 20:54:46 Warrigal: it was written by ais523 to prove me wrong, are you surprised? 20:54:50 on one line, too. 20:54:51 over IRC. 20:55:11 Warrigal, heh 20:55:15 Does that pretty much mean "the number of files in this folder, plus one, divided by two, rounded down"? 20:55:36 I wonder if I can change ls -1 . to list only directories. 20:55:45 Warrigal, echo */ 20:55:50 would do it 20:55:54 I believe 20:56:08 no idea why ls is needed there 20:56:18 ehird: why is not scp working? 20:56:19 ehird, prove you wrong about what? 20:56:26 bsmntbombdood: what command are you using? 20:56:35 ...scp 20:56:40 i mean 20:56:41 the whole thing :| 20:56:45 (because i dunno) 20:56:54 what? 20:56:58 can't you read his mind 20:57:03 !? 20:57:05 fraud! 20:57:07 scp ~/python/bsmnt_bot.tgz bsmnt@std-eso.org: 20:57:13 bsmntbombdood: std-eso.org 20:57:14 eso-std.org 20:57:16 compare 20:57:20 ooops :P 20:57:25 :DD 20:58:44 bsmntbombdood: I assume the chroot is 32-bit? then I'd better install linux32 20:58:57 oh balls 20:59:06 it's ok 20:59:14 linux32 solves all issues everywhere 20:59:17 constantly. 20:59:21 like aids and cancer. just apply linux32. 20:59:22 (echo */ | wc) instead of (ls -1 . | wc -l)? 20:59:34 smp? 20:59:39 how many procs have you got? 20:59:55 beats me :3 20:59:58 oh 21:00:00 procs=processors? 21:00:08 yes 21:00:15 this is a VPS, it's some weird shit, apparently it's shared between all of the servers 21:00:18 so "it depends" 21:00:24 oh 21:00:43 i am too poor to afford a dedi :} but this is functionally equivalent for 99% of stuff so. 21:00:58 this is one huge bot tarball you've got here 21:01:24 only 22mg 21:01:30 ...22mb 21:01:45 one slow upload, wonder if that's you or the server 21:10:40 2m to go 21:12:18 finally 21:12:22 night 21:12:35 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:12:50 bsmntbombdood: woohoo 21:13:09 bsmntbombdood: is it all ready? 21:13:15 no lol 21:13:19 :DD 21:13:32 ugh ssh over laggy connection 21:14:22 python2.4, oldschool 21:14:38 yeah :P 21:14:46 ehird: i need emacs or at least mg 21:15:06 bsmntbombdood: can't you use emacs locally and tramp to connect via ssh? 21:15:09 I'm sure I've done that. 21:15:22 i'd like to point out that the logs link in the topic is incorrect. only the part up to the host is case insensitive. 21:15:38 your mom is insensitive 21:17:05 bsmntbombdood: fine i'll install eamcs 21:17:22 well actually mg because I hate you <.< 21:17:22 :P 21:17:51 bsmntbombdood: you have your wish. 21:17:58 emacsfag. 21:18:01 :D 21:18:01 ais523: No. No there is not. As the formation of a planet takes substantially longer than a day, and there's no agreement on what exact moment the planet is considered to be a planet rather than a ball of primordial ooze. 21:18:10 $editorfag 21:18:27 i'd also like to point out that when the earth was created, the day/year ratio was probably different 21:19:12 s/created/formed/ in case someone thinks the former has connotations 21:19:45 ehird: sudo ~bsmnt/python_chroot/bot/start.sh 21:19:58 lets try this 21:20:14 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 21:20:17 hi 21:20:18 ^help 21:20:18 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 21:20:22 WHEN JESUS CAME FROM HIS SPACESHIP AND SPAT INTO SPACE, THE SPITWAD FORMED A BALL AND EVENTUALLY BECAME EDEN 21:20:22 oops 21:20:23 ~help 21:20:26 oh wait 21:20:27 WHEN EVE FUCKED IT UP EDEN BECAME EARTH 21:20:28 THE END 21:20:30 bsmnt_bot has no help 21:20:31 oh snap 21:20:32 ~eval 2+2 21:20:34 it actually worked 21:20:35 jesus 21:20:38 bsmntbombdood: did it? 21:20:41 ~exec 2+2 21:20:44 ~exec print 2+2 21:20:46 i didn't expect that to happen 21:20:50 :ehird!n=ehird@eso-std.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec print 2+2 21:20:50 4 21:20:51 ehird: what do you see on stdout? 21:20:52 lol 21:21:04 do infiniloops still break it? 21:21:10 ~exec while True: print 'a' 21:21:16 yes 21:21:19 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:21:19 ~quit 21:22:07 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 21:22:08 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:22:19 ehird: redirect stdout and stderr to ~bsmnt/output plox 21:22:24 yes yes sec 21:22:30 bsmntbombdood: how about using nohup 21:22:31 :P 21:22:36 but k 21:22:58 you deleted my fifo 21:23:10 er, oops 21:23:11 did i 21:23:27 bsmntbombdood: put it back? 21:23:42 kay 21:23:49 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 21:23:49 done 21:23:53 hi bsmnt_bot 21:23:53 foo 21:24:01 hmm not getting anything 21:24:06 worked for me 21:24:17 ~exec sys.stdout.write('yoyo') 21:24:17 yoyo 21:24:22 ~exec sys.stdout.write('i am green') 21:24:23 i am green 21:24:29 ~exec sys.stdout.write(repr(self)) 21:24:29 are you tailing output too? 21:24:29 <__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xf7cb86ec> 21:24:31 stop that 21:24:34 bsmntbombdood: no. 21:24:37 ~exec sys.stdout("foo") 21:24:37 foo 21:24:40 cool it works 21:24:45 ~exec a 21:24:45 NameError: name 'a' is not defined 21:24:49 ^^ 21:24:50 :D 21:24:59 bsmnt_bot: GLAD TO HAVE YOU BACK, YOUR BUGGINESS <3 21:25:00 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:25:02 ... 21:25:09 what happened 21:25:14 i dont know 21:25:49 it should be restarting automatically 21:26:01 root@rutian:/home/bsmnt# nohup ~bsmnt/python_chroot/bot/start.sh >output 2>&1 & 21:26:01 tjat 21:26:05 's how i started it 21:26:26 bsmntbombdood: look at start.sh 21:26:29 why would it restatr 21:26:39 hrm 21:27:14 it's been so long since i've looked at this code 21:27:23 i'll fix it later ;) 21:27:37 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 21:27:40 meanwhile, enjoy 21:27:53 foo 21:28:11 ~raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo 21:28:12 foo 21:30:54 hrm 21:31:26 are you all DENSE 21:31:33 ? 21:31:36 YOU are dense. you are a black hole, remember? 21:31:51 ~exec while 1: sys.stdout("spam") 21:31:51 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Excess Flood). 21:32:03 i thought i put in flood protection 21:33:01 bsmntbombdood: iirc you only did that for individual sys.stdout() calls 21:33:35 well that was stupid of me 21:36:59 unless someone is confused, it can be taken as read that we get the bloody context 21:37:17 yes, but it's still obscure to bring up unicorns 21:37:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:38:52 iirc there are some pretty cool python hacks in that bot 21:42:46 Oh, bsmnt_bot. 21:42:54 sigh 21:42:57 it broke already? 21:43:38 i thought it had better flood control 21:43:58 * ehird makes it run in a while tru 21:43:58 e 21:44:16 ehird: wrap start.sh in something like while [ -f keep_running]; do start.sh; done 21:44:28 # (while true; do nohup ~bsmnt/python_chroot/bot/start.sh >output 2>&1; done) & 21:44:32 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 21:44:33 WFM 21:44:39 ~exec random() 21:44:39 NameError: name 'random' is not defined 21:44:45 ~exec while 1: sys.stdout('i like big butts and I cannot lie') 21:44:45 i like big butts and I cannot lie 21:44:45 i like big butts and I cannot lie 21:44:45 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Excess Flood). 21:44:46 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 21:44:48 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 21:44:50 see? 21:45:00 ~exec sys.stdout(__import__('random').random()) 21:45:00 0.663668683347 21:45:09 ~exec sys.stdout(__import__('random').randomInt()) 21:45:10 AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'randomInt' 21:45:12 ~exec random.random() 21:45:13 NameError: name 'random' is not defined 21:45:16 Warrigal: lern2python 21:45:17 ~exec __import__('socket') 21:45:20 ~exec sys.stdout(dir(__import__('random'))) 21:45:23 ugh we need an auto-print 21:45:25 ['BPF', 'LOG4', 'NV_MAGICCONST', 'RECIP_BPF', 'Random', 'SG_MAGICCONST', 'SystemRandom', 'TWOPI', 'WichmannHill', '_BuiltinMethodType', '_MethodType', '__all__', '__builtins__', '__doc__', '__file__', '__name__', '_acos', '_cos', '_e', '_exp', '_hexlify', '_inst', '_log', '_pi', '_random', '_sin', '_sqrt', '_test', '_test_generator', '_urandom', '_warn', 'betavariate', 'ch 21:45:27 ~exec print __import__('socket') 21:45:30 oice', 'expovariate', 'gammavariate', 'gauss', 'getrandbits', 'getstate', 'jumpahead', 'lognormvariate', 'normalvariate', 'paretovariate', 'randint', 'random', 'randrange', 'sample', 'seed', 'setstate', 'shuffle', 'uniform', 'vonmisesvariate', 'weibullvariate'] 21:45:30 Huh. 21:45:34 ~exec sys.stdout(repr(__import__('socket')) 21:45:34 SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing 21:45:36 ~exec sys.stdout(repr(__import__('socket'))) 21:45:41 hellllllooooooooooo 21:45:44 ~exec sys.stdout(__import__('random').randint(5)) 21:45:46 21:45:52 TypeError: randint() takes exactly 3 arguments (2 given) 21:46:00 Cool, we have sockets. 21:46:01 ~exec sys.stdout(__import__('random').randint(1,5)) 21:46:04 3 21:46:11 ~exec sys.stdout(repr(open('start.sh').read())) 21:46:11 IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'start.sh' 21:46:28 ~exec sys.stdout(repr(open('bin').read())) 21:46:29 IOError: [Errno 21] Is a directory 21:46:32 ehird: /bot/start.sh 21:46:33 ~exec self.randint = __import('random').randint 21:46:34 NameError: name '__import' is not defined 21:46:35 ~exec sys.stdout(repr(open('bot/start.sh').read())) 21:46:39 ~exec self.randint = __import__('random').randint 21:46:44 '#! /bin/bash\n\nCHROOT=/home/bsmnt/python_chroot/\n\nif grep bot/files.img /etc/mtab\nthen\n echo\nelse\n mount $CHROOT/bot/files.img $CHROOT/bot/scripts -o loop,noexec,nodev,nosuid\nfi\n\nchroot $CHROOT /usr/bin/nice -n 7 /usr/bin/python2.4 /bot/ircbot.py\n' 21:46:46 join #bsmnt_bot_errors for full error trackbacks 21:46:48 bsmntbombdood: can it write to itself? 21:46:54 ehird: huh? 21:47:02 bsmntbombdood: Couldn't I destroy its python file right now? 21:47:08 From ~exec. 21:47:18 ~exec self.blah = lambda: self.randint(1,5) 21:47:28 ehird: i can't remember 21:47:33 :D 21:47:37 it's a bit flaky ain't it 21:47:55 ~exec blah = self.blah; sys.stdout([blah(),blah(),blah(),blah(),blah(),blah(),blah(),blah()]) 21:47:56 NameError: global name 'self' is not defined 21:48:10 * Warrigal blinks 21:48:19 ~exec map(lambda x, y: x ^ y, list('ABCDEF'), (list('CFGHJK')) 21:48:19 SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing 21:48:23 ~exec blah = bot.blah; sys.stdout([blah(),blah(),blah(),blah(),blah(),blah(),blah(),blah()]) 21:48:26 NameError: global name 'self' is not defined 21:48:38 ...that's odd 21:48:38 Warrigal: try #bsmnt_bot_errors 21:48:46 Okies. 21:48:46 ~exec bot 21:48:54 ~exec self 21:49:00 o.o 21:49:02 ~exec sys.stdout(self) 21:49:02 <__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xf7c616ec> 21:49:08 ~exec sys.exit() 21:49:14 ... 21:49:15 huh 21:49:15 ~exec sys.stdout(self.blah) 21:49:16 at 0xf7c6756c> 21:49:18 ~exec sys.exit(0) 21:49:21 ~exec sys._exit(0) 21:49:21 AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute '_exit' 21:49:29 ah 21:49:42 sys.exit should work 21:49:46 ~exec sys.stdout([self.blah() for n in [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]) 21:49:46 SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing 21:49:52 ~exec sys.stdout([self.blah() for n in [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]]) 21:49:53 NameError: global name 'self' is not defined 21:50:00 ~exec sys.stdout([bot.blah() for n in [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]]) 21:50:00 lol va 21:50:01 t 21:50:07 NameError: global name 'self' is not defined 21:50:10 Blah. 21:50:26 ~exec bot.blah() 21:50:26 NameError: global name 'self' is not defined 21:50:29 ~exec self.__sys 21:50:31 oh 21:50:32 Warrigal: 21:50:34 bot.blah 21:50:35 AttributeError: IRCbot instance has no attribute '__sys' 21:50:35 mentions self 21:50:37 I bet it 21:50:37 Okay. 21:50:50 Warrigal: 21:50:50 21:47 ~exec self.blah = lambda: self.randint(1,5) 21:50:53 spot the error 21:50:58 (It needs "lambda self: ...") 21:51:03 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 21:51:03 self in a lambda. 21:51:11 ~exec self.blah = lambda self: self.randint(1,5) 21:51:13 And that too. 21:51:17 ~exec sys.stdout(self.blah()) 21:51:17 TypeError: () takes exactly 1 argument (0 given) 21:51:21 oh. 21:51:23 oh, right 21:51:28 Warrigal: solution: 21:51:44 ~exec self.blah = (lambda this: (lambda: this.randint(1,5)))(self) 21:51:48 ~exec sys.stdout(self.blah()) 21:51:48 5 21:51:51 ~exec sys.stdout([__import__('random').randint(1,5) for n in [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]]) 21:51:51 [5, 1, 5, 3, 2, 2, 4, 2, 5, 3] 21:52:00 I think it generates a random integer from 1 to 5. 21:52:12 ~raw JOIN ##nomic 21:52:20 only for bsmnt. 21:52:21 ~exec self._ = (lambda this: (lambda l: l(this)))(self) 21:52:24 ~exec map(lambda x, y: chr(ord(x) ^ ord(y)), list('Hello'), list('jtcvb')) 21:52:32 ~exec self.raw('JOIN ##nomic') 21:52:36 ~exec self.blahhy = self._(lambda this: this) 21:52:40 ~exec sys.stdout(self.blahhy) 21:52:40 <__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xf7c616ec> 21:52:42 ~exec sys.stdout(self.blahhy()) 21:52:43 AttributeError: IRCbot instance has no __call__ method 21:52:48 oh 21:52:54 ~exec sys.stdout(map(lambda x, y: chr(ord(x) ^ ord(y)), list('Hello'), list('jtcvb'))) 21:52:55 ['"', '\x11', '\x0f', '\x1a', '\r'] 21:53:08 ~exec self._ = (lambda this: (lambda l: lambda *a, **k: l(this, *a, **k)))(self) 21:53:16 ~exec self.blahhy = self._(lambda this, a: (this,a)) 21:53:19 ~exec self.raw('PRIVMSG ##nomic :%n' % __import__('random').randint(1,5)) 21:53:19 ValueError: unsupported format character 'n' (0x6e) at index 18 21:53:21 ~exec sys.stdout(self.blahhy(2)) 21:53:22 (<__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xf7c616ec>, 2) 21:53:26 Warrigal: I made defining functions easy. 21:53:30 21:53 ~exec self.blahhy = self._(lambda this, a: (this,a)) 21:53:38 ~exec self.raw('PRIVMSG ##nomic :%d' % __import__('random').randint(1,5)) 21:56:37 ~exec sys.stdout([ i for i in map(lambda x, y: chr(ord(x) ^ ord(y)), list('Hello'), list('jtcvb')) ]) 21:56:38 ['"', '\x11', '\x0f', '\x1a', '\r'] 21:56:45 KingOfKarlsruhe: What are you doing? 21:56:53 just for fun :) 21:59:01 ~exec sys.stdout(map(lambda x, y: chr(ord(x) ^ ord(y)), ['"', '\x11', '\x0f', '\x1a', '\r'], list('jtcvb'))) 21:59:01 ['H', 'e', 'l', 'l', 'o'] 21:59:41 KingOfKarlsruhe: Ah, http://monolith.sourceforge.net/? 22:00:08 i'm just surprised that bsmnt_bot worked on the first try 22:00:14 bsmntbombdood: :) 22:02:33 Haskell: {decode ('#':x:xs) = x `asciiXOR` ' ' : decode xs; decode ('$':x:xs) = x `asciiXOR` '@' : decode xs; decode ('%':x:xs) = x `asciiXOR` '`' : decode xs; decode (x:xs) = x : decode xs; decode [] = []} 22:02:47 what? 22:02:47 Where asciiXOR converts characters into numbers, bitwise XORs them, and converts them back. 22:02:52 How would you do that in Python? 22:02:55 that's nothing remotely like KingOfKarlsruhe's... 22:03:12 Yes, but KingOfKarlsruhe's reminded me of this. 22:03:37 ah 22:08:33 ~exec sys.stdout(__import__('md5').md5.md5('Hello world!').hexdigest()) 22:08:34 AttributeError: 'builtin_function_or_method' object has no attribute 'md5' 22:08:57 that's not how the md5 module works 22:09:27 You have a lot of md5s there. 22:09:32 s/.md5.md5/.md5/ 22:09:45 ~exec sys.stdout(__import__('md5').md5('Hello world!').hexdigest()) 22:09:45 86fb269d190d2c85f6e0468ceca42a20 22:09:48 ahh ^^ 22:10:53 ehird: chop chop 22:10:57 ehird: get to fixing bsmntbombdood 22:11:02 bsmntbombdood: i can't fix you. 22:11:02 *bsmnt_bot 22:11:03 sorry. 22:11:07 also, fix it how 22:11:09 it works. 22:11:31 no it doesn't 22:11:37 how doesn't it 22:12:20 ~exec self.add_callback(".*foofoo.*", lambda *args:self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%s" % "fofofofofofof")) 22:12:21 AttributeError: IRCbot instance has no attribute 'add_callback' 22:12:31 huh 22:12:35 what's up with that 22:13:21 oops 22:13:28 ~exec self.register_raw(".*foofoo.*", lambda *args:self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%s" % "fofofofofofof")) 22:13:36 foofoo 22:13:36 NameError: global name 'self' is not defined 22:13:45 ~exec self.register_raw(".*foofoo.*", lambda *args:bot.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%s" % "fofofofofofof")) 22:13:45 NameError: global name 'self' is not defined 22:13:48 foofoo 22:14:03 fofofofofofof 22:14:05 NameError: global name 'self' is not defined 22:14:23 fofofofofofof 22:14:33 ~quit 22:14:33 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit. 22:14:35 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 22:14:37 foofoo 22:14:44 that's why it doesn't work 22:14:52 bsmntbombdood: oh, no persistence? 22:14:56 persistence is for weenies 22:15:01 callbacks are supposed to be persistant 22:15:06 ah 22:15:33 that's odd 22:16:20 bsmntbombdood: why doesn't it work 22:19:42 actually i think you might have to do it manually 22:19:50 with load_callbacks/save_callbacks or soemthing 22:20:15 ah 22:22:19 or maybe that's in betterbot.py 22:22:26 i can see why they say it's good to comment your code 22:23:08 bsmntbombdood: why not use betterbot then 22:23:44 because the startup script has stuff that i added later 22:23:51 making me think that betterbot is an old version 22:23:53 not sure though 22:24:07 i can see bsmnt_bot is a well-maintained piece of software 22:24:16 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:24:19 hells yes 22:24:59 * ehird note to self: never let bsmntbombdood touch code 22:25:17 hey i'm one badass programmer 22:25:30 a bad ass-programmer? 22:25:56 Badger: only if you want me to be, baby 22:26:05 :D 22:26:41 Boss, I think there's something wrong with that programmer you hired. 22:26:54 He doesn't actually do anything; he just sits around and eats carrots. 22:27:11 i hate puns 22:27:55 When I told him to write a program for me, he just brayed at me. 22:29:43 I WANT TO TASTE YOUR FLUIDS 22:31:28 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 22:32:12 Warrigal: don't give him any more carrots until his program compiles successfully. i'm sure you can take it from there. 22:32:27 :( 22:33:01 also, wear protective clothing when you tell him about this policy 22:33:39 stop making me sad oerjan 22:36:03 ehird: want kind of loser doesn't have libevent installed 22:36:16 bsmntbombdood: one whose server has absolutely nothing on 22:36:23 what do you want libevent for ey 22:36:31 now now i didn't say the program had to actually _work_ 22:36:42 we're not complete sadists here 22:37:18 bsmntbombdood: ? 22:37:30 wtf? 22:37:42 pj 22:37:47 you don't mean my server? 22:37:48 i was just guessing 22:37:55 ./a.out 22:38:08 -bash: ./a.out: No such file or directory 22:38:31 oh jeez, bsmntbombdood, 22:38:34 output is in ~ehird 22:38:34 XD 22:38:41 also 22:38:49 a.out: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.6.8, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped 22:38:51 lern264-bit 22:38:58 that's why it doesn't work 22:39:14 ^@Welcome, Your nick: ^@<^@> ^@Thank you ^@ 22:39:15 Active users: ^@, ^@*system*: ^@ has joined 22:39:17 wut is it 22:39:34 lol did you string it? 22:39:39 vi 22:39:41 i'm harcore 22:39:42 hardcore 22:39:52 harcen to ehird 22:40:07 telnet to eso-std.org port 12345 22:41:01 you quit 22:41:02 :( 22:41:10 wtf it crashed 22:41:19 how did you run it 22:41:21 lol 22:41:26 it's 32-bit 22:41:36 ehird: so is the stuff in the chroot 22:41:38 o, we have linux32 22:41:38 that worked 22:41:39 dunno 22:41:40 weird 22:42:05 -!- dkoder has joined. 22:42:28 telnet in again 22:42:44 lol wtf did you do 22:42:49 bsmntbombdood: Welcome, Your nick: ^[[A^[[A 22:42:56 what exactly did you type? 22:43:03 ^[[A - up key 22:43:05 maybe i should add some sanity checking... 22:43:13 -!- dkoder has left (?). 22:43:27 * Warrigal ponders the use of production rules in compiling 22:43:51 ehird: use a real nick 22:43:59 all yur messages are blank 22:44:32 FIX IT 22:44:45 -> lambda -> 22:44:48 Hmm. 22:45:17 no u 22:45:34 FIX IT 22:45:39 ehird: telnet back in and use a real nick 22:45:44 just alphanums, then hit enter 22:45:48 fuck you 22:45:55 bsmntbombdood: sorry 22:45:56 I HAD TO 22:45:58 i'll connect properly now 22:46:31 you did it wrong 22:46:35 it's not working 22:46:43 o.o 22:47:03 bsmntbombdood: ? 22:47:58 whatever i have to go to work 22:48:01 i'll fix it later 22:48:50 :D 23:17:53 -!- Judofyr has quit. 23:28:24 Sure, iMovie as a web app. Uh-huh. Slogan: “And you thought USB was slow.” -- John Gruber 23:41:42 guys 23:41:47 you like guns germs and steel right? 23:42:31 steel is fine, the others i'm not quite as fond of 23:42:37 :P 23:42:40 (yeah i know it's a book title) 2009-01-02: 00:09:31 should I feel guilty about coding a bsmnt_bot competitor 00:18:19 you evil evil man 00:18:34 "No," says my Adam Smith puppet. 00:18:55 I think he's saying that to ehird. 00:19:16 * oerjan hits the Adam Smith puppet over the head with the saucepan of nations ====\___/ 00:23:57 The nice thing about my bot is that it'll have eval, but it won't be able to break the bot. 00:24:02 But you'll be able to fiddle with it 00:24:06 Also, it'll have esolang interps and stuff. 00:24:09 Also, a babble generator. 00:24:16 In short, a nice respectable #esoteric bot, with fun Python evaluation. 00:26:37 Maybe I'll make a bot, too. 00:26:49 :) 00:26:53 Also, mine will log this channel. 00:27:00 So you don't have to use the awful tunes.org log interface. 00:27:20 I've always wanted to make a fake bashbot. 00:27:29 eh? 00:28:33 An IRC bot that looks like bash but isn't. 00:28:40 define bash 00:28:43 the shell? 00:28:53 The shell, sure. 00:29:00 what did you mean 00:29:00 :P 00:29:13 The shell. 00:29:35 I don't think I know of any other bashes. 00:30:10 bash.org 00:31:22 Message('PRIVMSG', '#esoteric', 'Hello, world!') 00:32:05 * Warrigal nods 00:32:41 >>> botte.message.Message('PRIVMSG', '#esoteric', 'Hello, world!') 00:32:41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, world! 00:32:46 Phear my 1337 skillz. 00:33:55 * Warrigal ponders what programs a person could possibly want 00:34:21 irc 00:34:56 A few: cat, chmod, chown, irc, mkdir, rm, rmdir 00:35:37 it's Ye Olde Botte! 00:36:04 Warrigal: dwim 00:36:25 I suppose some commands to interact with running processes would be nice. bash itself would also be useful, of course. 00:36:45 oerjan: yes, botte is sucha nice name 00:37:29 Then again, I don't want to go overboard with trying to be like a Unix system. So no fancy process interaction that wouldn't be easy to implement anyway. 00:37:38 Warrigal: what are you doing? 00:37:48 Wanting to make a fake bashbot. 00:37:56 Ohhhh, I see 00:38:02 oerjan: will you be friends with botte? 00:38:32 I guess I would also include echo. 00:47:18 botte.bot.Bot().plugins['karma'].commands[0].handle(bot, botte.message.Message('PRIVMSG', '#esoteric', '.hello')) 00:47:21 ^ worse than java :D 00:48:34 this will be the botte of our jokes 00:49:25 XD 00:49:29 oerjan: i love you. 00:50:09 how nice. 00:50:14 oerjan: :| 00:51:26 why the long face? 00:51:34 beats me 00:51:50 no, _this_ beats you ====\___/ 00:51:57 lol 00:52:01 botte should have a .swat 00:52:07 so oerjan doesn't have to do any work 00:52:21 * oerjan never does any work anyhow 00:53:06 swatting is hard work! 00:53:26 virtually exhausting! 00:55:56 hmm I have a bit of a possible bottleneck here 00:56:06 possibly parsing the input stream for a command -everysingletime- isn't so clever 00:56:13 YM botte-l-neck 00:59:55 hmm, I'll compile everything down to regexps... 00:59:56 ...tomorrow 01:05:29 i'm... so decisive 01:05:38 whoa holy shit, oklopol moment coming on. 01:08:02 it's because oklopol isn't here 01:08:19 his spirit is possessing you 01:08:25 o.o 01:09:23 * oerjan bringeth forth ye holie exorcising swatter -----### 01:10:13 ow 01:10:26 please do not resist, or we'll have to do ye holy hand grenade next 01:11:00 BEGONE, FOULE DAEMONE 01:11:47 * oerjan watcheth ye eville daemone runne away in ye form of a rabbite 01:30:42 * ehird decides that one match of a regex then a dictionary lookup is faster than many matches of a regex. 02:28:31 I love Ye Olde Butcherede Englifhe. 02:50:06 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:50:44 i hope you dont think that "ye olde butcherede englifhe" is the same as "old english" 02:51:26 i hope psygnisfive knows the meaning of the word "butchered[e]" :D 02:51:48 i do, but i mean the general "ye olde englifhe" type stuff 02:51:55 not the butcherede part :p 02:53:00 * oerjan trieth to use -th correctly, at least 02:53:36 the rest - not so much 02:53:39 the thing with older -th is that its basically where we use -s today 02:53:45 so you sound like you've got a lisp 02:53:46 :) 02:53:56 you don't thay 02:54:05 i said -s not just s :P 02:54:28 but yeah, "ye olde englifhe" is not Old English 02:54:49 * oerjan assumeth it is closer to Middle 02:54:49 if anything its early modern english before the standardization of spelling 02:54:59 or that 02:57:57 Hwæt! Wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum, þeod-cyninga, þrym gefrunon, hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon. Oft scyld scefingsceaþena þreatum, monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah, ogsode eorl. 03:02:12 that sir 03:02:16 that is Old English 03:02:39 * oerjan guessed as much 03:04:34 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 03:23:38 Speaking Old English be all about using the subjunctive. 03:24:16 Saying "That were hard to compass." instead of "That is hard to compass." make all the difference. 03:24:54 Warrigal speak much nonsense 03:25:10 It be only the subjunctive, my friend. 03:25:46 Anyway, no more complete sentences for me. Shunning verbs, and all. Much more flexible this way. 03:26:18 Peculiar or just iffy tendency, perhaps, but no problem to understand. 03:26:27 Remind me of palindromes, actually. 03:26:32 Warrigal spækas myki baldurdashi 03:27:09 Ah, the wonders of speaking entirely in incomplete sentences... 03:27:35 I accidentally complete sentences too 03:27:40 -!- GregorR has set topic: Logs are here: `wget http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.12.29 -O - 2> /dev/null | grep 'logs >>>' | sed 's/.*logs >>> \(.*\) <<<.*/\1/'`. 03:28:01 ack, new year topic accidentally over 03:28:14 Accidentally? 03:28:26 The log link was wrong :P 03:28:50 well yeah i accidentally that earlier 03:28:55 Bah, verb omission. Ungrammatical. 03:29:10 Unlike omitting the subject, which I assure you is completely grammatical. 03:29:13 In Spanish, anyway. 03:29:28 Warrigal: i accidentally your viewpoint 03:30:06 Wait, "much more flexible" to avoid complete sentences completely? Yeah, right. 03:30:17 i would guess in old english as well, since they had more personal verb endings 03:31:04 istr old norse could leave out subjects, although it's been a while 03:32:37 i may adopt an egoistic grammar where i use only one subject for all sentences 03:33:33 after i drive everyone crazy with it, i will rule the world 03:34:19 or should we adopt a royal we, hm... 04:03:02 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:04:24 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 04:26:43 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to kerlo. 04:44:07 -!- kerlo has changed nick to Warrigal. 04:52:05 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to kerlo. 05:20:34 -!- Asztal has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:34 -!- sebbu2 has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:35 -!- psygnisfive has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:36 -!- flexo has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:36 -!- Dewi has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:37 -!- ehird has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:38 -!- GregorR has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:38 -!- puzzlet has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:39 -!- rodgort has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:39 -!- decipher has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:41 -!- Badger has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:41 -!- AnMaster has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:42 -!- lament has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:42 -!- mtve has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:43 -!- SimonRC has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:24:24 -!- Asztal has joined. 05:24:24 -!- ehird has joined. 05:24:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 05:24:24 -!- rodgort has joined. 05:24:24 -!- GregorR has joined. 05:24:24 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:24:24 -!- SimonRC has joined. 05:24:24 -!- decipher has joined. 05:24:24 -!- lament has joined. 05:24:24 -!- mtve has joined. 05:28:24 -!- Asztal has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:28:24 -!- sebbu2 has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:28:25 -!- puzzlet has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:28:25 -!- GregorR has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:28:26 -!- ehird has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:28:26 -!- decipher has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:28:26 -!- rodgort has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:28:26 -!- lament has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:28:27 -!- mtve has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:28:27 -!- SimonRC has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:30:50 -!- Asztal has joined. 05:30:50 -!- ehird has joined. 05:30:50 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 05:30:50 -!- rodgort has joined. 05:30:50 -!- GregorR has joined. 05:30:50 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:30:50 -!- SimonRC has joined. 05:30:50 -!- decipher has joined. 05:30:50 -!- lament has joined. 05:30:50 -!- mtve has joined. 05:31:05 -!- AnMaster has joined. 05:31:05 -!- Badger has joined. 05:31:24 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 05:31:24 -!- flexo has joined. 05:31:24 -!- Dewi has joined. 05:42:07 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 06:57:22 Argh, tools are chrome-plated. 07:53:23 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:54:27 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:28:11 GregorR: in bf, does - wrap back around to 255? 08:28:20 or is it NOP for 0's 08:53:38 -!- Mony has joined. 08:54:36 plo 08:56:18 CakeProphet: Depends on the implementation. 08:56:28 CakeProphet: In most implementations it raps around. 08:56:30 *wraps 08:56:38 no no, I think that's a good idea 08:56:52 my Haskell implementation will freestyle upon decrementing a 0 08:57:01 ... "freestyle"? 08:57:24 well, unless you mean something else by "raps around". 08:57:43 I mean that when you subtract from 0, it goes to MAXVAL. 09:01:26 http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v47/BenMaras/?action=view¤t=ijoystick.png (NSFW, NSF-sanity) 09:03:12 -clicks- 09:03:54 heh :p 09:08:23 * CakeProphet places an order for girlfriend 10:44:34 -!- M0ny has joined. 10:53:17 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 11:03:11 -!- M0ny has quit ("Quit"). 11:06:31 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:36:03 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:15:35 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:15:40 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:09:57 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:51:27 -!- ehird has left (?). 13:51:31 -!- ehird has joined. 13:51:44 -!- ehird has left (?). 13:51:49 -!- ehird has joined. 14:13:06 you know what i like 14:13:13 bsmnt_bot. 14:13:19 ~exec sys.stdout('why thank you') 14:13:19 why thank you 14:13:28 so good to have you back old chap 14:22:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:36:45 Hmm... 15:11:25 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:11:30 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:18:42 Pop quiz: how long do you think it'd take to match 100 short regexps against a short text? 15:20:24 finally a question within my expertise - oh wait 15:20:34 :D 15:20:50 but if i may guess: "not very long" 15:24:02 oerjan: how much faster than matching 1 short regexp against the same text, then doing a hashtable lookup on one of the groups? 15:24:14 i imagine the answer is "0.5ms" 15:24:39 now we're _really_ out of my expertise 15:26:24 although hm, you should be able to do 100 regexps in parallel by merging the finite state automata. that would be assuming they're actually implemented that way 15:27:02 or maybe the number of states will blow up exponentially (^100) 15:27:22 oerjan: I think python regexps are less speedy than FSAs 15:27:25 because of backrefs 15:28:08 yeah regexps mean more than the CS definition these days 15:28:33 i think optimizing it can depend a lot on the form of the regexps 15:29:17 and did i mention my lack of expertise? 15:29:44 oerjan: what's worth noting is that these regexps are matching a line from irc. 15:29:50 to choose which command to run. 15:29:55 very speed-sensitive, 15:31:13 um how many thousand channels are you watching? O_O 15:31:57 oerjan: well, my initial deployment is 5,000 worldwide 15:31:59 clustered 15:32:10 then I think I'll run a few instances but with shared memory 15:32:11 oh mad science 15:32:14 long-term, about 100,000 channels 15:32:22 which get 100 messages/sec each 15:33:21 hopefully I will then implement bot procreation 15:33:27 and all bots will eventually become botte 15:33:58 ic 15:34:50 anyway i think you should do the hashtable thing until you know you need more speed 15:36:33 oerjan: wut? the hashtable one is the slower one 15:36:34 :D 15:36:50 yes but it sounds like it is simpler 15:36:59 also, are you _sure_ it's slower 15:37:17 99% sure, dictionary lookup is like THE most optimized thing in python 15:37:20 (because obj.foo does it) 15:37:30 huh? 15:37:31 and the re module is written in pure python, IIRC 15:37:36 re=regex 15:37:38 so 15:37:43 regex is almost certainly slower 15:37:44 that would mean hashtable should be faster 15:37:47 yes 15:37:50 it would be 15:37:55 oh 15:37:56 er you said the opposite 15:38:00 15:36 oerjan: wut? the hashtable one is the slower one aemn 15:38:02 sould be 15:38:04 15:36 oerjan: wut? the hashtable one is the faster one 15:38:29 well then not a problem 15:38:53 or rather, you have only two problems, while with 100 regexps you would have 101 problems 15:39:59 :D 15:40:02 but 15:40:05 its a pain to implement 15:40:06 so ha 15:48:41 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:30:01 -!- Judofyr has quit. 16:56:44 -!- oerjan has quit ("Cubus"). 17:09:17 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:19:57 -!- Hiato has joined. 17:20:13 Gnock-Knock 17:20:57 \me pokes a bit more 17:21:08 * Hiato pokes a bit more 17:21:32 confused windows directory tree with IRC there :P 17:25:34 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:31:56 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:35:12 * SimonRC wonders if people are listening here 17:38:15 \me wonders in response 17:38:20 * Hiato wonders in response 17:38:27 (... again) 17:38:55 heh 17:39:38 SimonRC, would you mind shedding some light on a certain problem for me? 17:40:44 ok, but I am busy right now 17:40:47 go ahead 17:42:11 Ok, thanks. In your opinion, what would the best way be to grow massive numbers, quickly. That is, can you suggest/demonstrate a method that will do so. 17:42:41 All of this in light of my realisation that my method is not actually as large as I thought it would be - all for a little game on the xkcd fora 17:44:06 busy beaver numbers are a good choice 17:44:17 they grow uncomputably fast 17:44:46 yeah, they're perfect, but unfortunately the number has to be finite and computable. The latter cancelling out that option 17:45:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:10:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:16:34 18:14 Besides 12 year olds aren't supposed to use the Internet 18:16:38 -- #wikipedia 18:16:50 18:14 in what universe? 18:16:57 18:15 dungodung: A universe in which there are appropriate safeguards 18:23:18 i got my keyboard :D 18:23:46 ehird gt off the internets 18:23:53 i'm 13 18:23:54 so i'm OK 18:23:58 but 12 year olds 18:23:59 oh ok 18:24:02 they need appropriate safeguards. 18:24:04 in that case 18:24:10 13 is the COPPA age, isn't it? 18:24:10 ::raep:: 18:24:12 in case they learn anything about the real world. 18:24:15 ais523: yep. 18:24:28 yeah but hes a limey 13 year old 18:24:37 so noone cares about his protection and privacy 18:24:37 do my "yes I am over 13" clicks on registration forms retroactively become legal when I turn 13? 18:24:49 no 18:24:56 dammit 18:25:12 you might end up in jail :( 18:25:26 it's ok I have green. 18:25:29 the power of green. 18:25:31 nah, that's a civial violation not a criminal one 18:25:32 *civil 18:25:35 brown? 18:25:37 so ehird can't be imprisoned, just fined lots 18:25:38 the power of brown? 18:25:42 cheese? 18:25:43 i am very incivil 18:25:46 the power of cheese? 18:25:54 ais523: I say I'd have clicked, hmm, at least 500 such yes links. 18:25:57 How much can I be fined? XD 18:26:01 whatve you been looking at that requires you be 13 ehird? 18:26:07 psygnisfive: registration forms have it. 18:26:09 _all_ of them 18:26:11 seriously 18:26:12 oh 18:26:13 really? 18:26:14 hm 18:26:16 ehird: I'm not at all sure, damage calculation is something i'm rubbish at guessing 18:26:18 it's crazy 18:26:24 obviously wouldnt be porn 18:26:28 those are 18+ here 18:26:28 lol 18:26:31 pg-13 porn 18:26:34 mmm yeah 18:27:01 if adult diapers are diapers for adults 18:27:06 is child porn porn for children? 18:27:46 yes. 18:27:52 well then 18:27:56 dont look at child porn, ehird 18:28:05 now that I'm over 13? XD 18:28:27 no, ever. porn for children is full of annoying kids doing annoying things 18:28:47 this is some odd new definition of porn for children that I was previously unaware of 18:28:54 because theyre all kids, the whole "fake story" thing is always like 18:29:00 two kids on a playground 18:29:04 one acting all slutty 18:29:09 * ehird thinks psygnisfive is in bizarro world 18:29:10 sharing her apple juice 18:29:20 * SimonRC ponders... 18:29:21 and then next thing you know its an orgy 18:29:35 i mean, that NEVER happens! 18:29:41 is is paedophilia if the child in question is older than you 18:29:57 i don't think being attracted to people of your own age is paedophilia. 18:30:07 or a boy is riding his bike too fast, a girl police officer pulls him over 18:30:24 and rides his bike? 18:30:26 ok, topic over 18:30:29 instantrimshot.com 18:30:32 you can all go home now 18:30:34 do you realize how fast you were going? // uh no.. its a bike.. i dont have a speedometer. maybe 10 miles an hour? 18:30:41 I SAID TOPIC OVER 18:30:48 :P 18:31:21 / YOUVE GOT A CARD IN YOUR SPOKES DO YOU REALIZE HOW DANGEROUS THAT IS? im going to have to place you under arrest! 18:31:41 different topic: # There once lived a man name Oedipus Rex // You may have hear about his odd complex // His name appears in Freud's index // because he loved his mother. # 18:31:49 >_< 18:31:57 lol 18:32:36 (from Tom Lehrer) 18:32:39 theres some humor in the oedipus story vs the oedipus myth in that it was all unknown to him and once it was he gouged out his eyes and ran away from being king 18:32:50 * SimonRC goes for dinner. 18:33:04 whereas i think a lot of people unfamiliar with the myth believe that he was a case of oedipal complex 18:33:20 doesn't freud say that _everyone_ is a case of that? 18:33:25 well yes :P 18:33:34 freud was a nutball 18:33:41 no shit :P 18:34:01 Freudian Slip: When you say one thing and mean your mother. 18:34:07 old 18:34:14 silence! >O 18:34:29 what instrument do you play ehird 18:34:34 nothing :D 18:34:47 ive decided to take up keyboard 18:35:01 i can do that 18:35:03 watch 18:35:04 asdjkladjhksfkjaljeoiajvog9irhbrt 18:35:06 dfkljna'∂fgjlsk;fmbdt[;lkb;lkytdmbkntldh ,mfl,ujh 18:35:10 hooray! 18:35:18 get it get it 18:35:22 I was playing my keyboard 18:35:23 ahahahhaahhaha 18:35:35 oh ill play your keyboard alright 18:35:39 you have a ∂ on your keyboard? 18:35:40 worst innuendo ever 18:35:45 ais523: option-d = d 18:35:46 err 18:35:47 ∂ 18:35:52 œ∑´®†¥ 18:35:53 ah, ok 18:35:54 alt-qwerty 18:36:01 I have a ð 18:36:02 i use unicode querty 18:36:04 using altgr 18:36:09 so mine is ð as well 18:36:49 * ehird mac usar 18:37:34 me too 18:51:18 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:19:58 -!- LinuS has joined. 19:21:38 grrrrrrrr fuck relational databses 19:22:59 graphs are awesome, however. 19:23:00 wooo... I've finally gotten truly familiar with a second programming language. 19:23:06 CakeProphet: which two? 19:23:13 Python and Haskell 19:23:28 CakeProphet: good taste. now learn smalltalk, lisp and c. :P 19:23:31 though technically I'm familiar with C... but I never use it unless someone needs me to. 19:24:02 I also /know/ the syntax/semantics of smalltalk and lisp 19:24:07 just don't have the experience to program things in it 19:24:35 lisp doesn't really interest me 19:24:53 they're useful to know, conceptually 19:26:58 http://ogdl.sourceforge.net/ 19:26:59 awesom 19:27:00 e 19:27:07 see, I basically have to serialize a bunch of shit as that 19:27:08 and I'm done 19:27:18 well, it could do with non-string types. 19:27:48 http://ogdl.sourceforge.net/spec/ogdl-schema.htm this could work but it's just so non-automatic. 19:27:49 hmm. 19:27:50 * ehird thinks. 19:27:56 serializing arbitrary objects to a graph. hmm. 19:30:40 PICKLE 19:31:16 fail 19:31:25 pickle is 1. python-specific 2. doesn't serialize to a graph 19:35:43 * SimonRC dislikes arguing on the internet 19:35:56 SimonRC: I personally enjoy arguing on the internet. 19:36:11 it's fun, there are no consequences, and you sometimes learn things 19:36:19 why do /you/ not like arguing on the internet? 19:37:15 SimonRC: which argument? 19:37:57 I keep finding people that seem to have a crazy idea that they won't shift on 19:38:51 for example, in this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/more_or_less/7798152.stm 19:38:51 SimonRC: THERE IS A SUPERNATURAL BEING WHO WATCHES OVER US AND SENDS US TO PARADISE OR A PLACE OF FIRE AND EVIL DEPENDING IF HE LIKES US OR NOT 19:39:00 ehird: no, not like that 19:39:04 :D 19:39:17 the brain teaser's answer is not AFAICT right 19:39:50 "a random number" doesn't say what distribution to use 19:40:07 and once you pick a distribution, information leaks out 19:40:27 a little of information at least 19:47:57 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 19:49:40 grrrrrrrr fuck relational databses 19:49:42 um 19:49:44 why? 19:49:48 they suck. 19:49:59 ehird, like postgresql? 19:50:05 * AnMaster love postgresql 19:50:19 postgresql is a great implementation of the relational paradigm, which is shit. 19:50:35 ehird, so what sort of database do you suggest instead? 19:50:51 read up. I'm writing a database that serializes arbitrary objects to a graph. :D 19:50:55 hm 19:51:05 ehird, how fast and scalable will it be? 19:51:31 AnMaster: there's not really anything in its theoretical model that would cause it to be anything but blazing, but since I'm writing the implementation in Ruby -- not very fast. 19:51:35 maybe scalable. 19:51:36 we'll see. 19:51:45 the question is, are your datasets large enough to worry about that? 19:52:03 ehird, wikipedia database? 19:52:15 AnMaster: probably take like 500 hours to import, but I don't care :) 19:52:54 ehird, is there any tutorial or introduction for graph based db? 19:53:10 AnMaster: sure. it's a graph, and it's on disk. 19:53:13 any questions? 19:55:29 ehird, well I don't see how it works for say this: SELECT pages.title AS title, revisions.text AS text FROM (pages LEFT JOIN text (pages.revision = revisions.id)) WHERE pages.protected = true; 19:55:33 or something like that 19:55:38 it may not be valid sql 19:55:50 and I don't see what your point is at all. 19:55:55 that's SQL. SQL is a relational language. 19:55:59 why are you talking about it? 19:56:06 ehird, how would you represent something like that with graph db 19:56:19 AnMaster: you wouldn't. that's a query. 19:56:24 databases don't store queries. 19:56:31 ehird, true, but a database isn't useful if you can't query it 19:56:41 so how would you represent the data and how would you query it 19:56:44 that's completely separate to the actual database 19:56:51 AnMaster: 1) as a graph. 2) by querying it as a graph 19:57:01 ehird, can you give some example 19:57:07 of what. 19:57:45 of something equivalent to the SQL query I wrote above. I assume you wouldn't represent it as tables like that, but in some other format instead 19:58:00 so I can't really ask more specific, than that 19:58:07 it's abstract, it's just like how you could query a relational DB with any language, not just sql 19:58:15 ehird, yes true 19:58:15 so I can't exactly give you a concrete example... 19:58:20 but how does the model differ? 19:58:22 I mean 19:58:30 would you store it as 2 tables? 19:58:32 or what 19:58:32 one's tables with columns, rows and relations, one's a graph 19:58:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_(mathematics) 19:59:13 yes I know about that, but: I don't know how it would be a db that could store pages with revisions 19:59:23 I have an idea 19:59:36 19:55 ehird, well I don't see how it works for say this: SELECT pages.title AS title, revisions.text AS text FROM (pages LEFT JOIN text (pages.revision = revisions.id)) WHERE pages.protected = true; 19:59:40 let's invent an arbitrary query format 19:59:43 it'd look like: 19:59:45 ehird, yep 19:59:51 I'm find with custom query formats 19:59:51 I have a list of names and adresses of customers. How would that be stored? 20:00:02 SimonRC: i'll answer AnMaster's question first 20:00:47 page = pages.select(p -> p.protected = true) 20:00:53 revision = page.revisions[page.revision] 20:00:58 SimonRC, I could answer for relational db, since there is a 1-to-1 mapping there need not be more than 1 table, probably with a primary key to use as a table elsewhere 20:01:05 it essentially comes down to OOP 20:01:09 * SimonRC watches BBC 4 20:01:18 since an OOP system is a huge object graph, in essence 20:01:22 ehird, right, there is a 1-to-many-mapping there 20:01:26 AnMaster: no 20:01:31 ehird, yes there was in my example 20:01:40 there's no such thing as a 1-to-many mapping 20:01:42 there's an ordered list. 20:01:51 ehird, each page can have 1 or more revisions 20:01:57 AnMaster: 1-to-many mapping is relational speak. 20:02:05 ehird, well, how would that translate then? 20:02:09 to graph 20:02:14 20:00 page = pages.select(p -> p.protected = true) 20:02:14 20:00 revision = page.revisions[page.revision] 20:02:21 well 20:02:26 p.protected == true 20:02:29 since I used = for assignment 20:02:47 ehird, if I want to get a set of revisions related to the set of protected pages? 20:02:58 :/ 20:03:00 dude 20:03:02 I fucking pasted it 20:03:06 yes 20:03:10 have it three times 20:03:11 20:00 page = pages.select(p -> p.protected = true) 20:03:12 20:00 revision = page.revisions[page.revision] 20:03:14 20:00 page = pages.select(p -> p.protected = true) 20:03:16 20:00 revision = page.revisions[page.revision] 20:03:18 20:00 page = pages.select(p -> p.protected = true) 20:03:18 ehird, ah, so is that: 20:03:20 20:00 revision = page.revisions[page.revision] 20:03:23 pages = pages.select(p -> p.protected = true) 20:03:24 then? 20:03:25 in fact 20:03:31 or 20:03:34 protected_pages = pages.select(p -> p.protected = true) 20:03:35 rather 20:03:45 protected_pages = pages.select_all(p -> p.protected == true) 20:03:46 since there would be more than one protected page :) 20:03:48 right 20:03:56 ehird, your use of singular confused me 20:03:57 :P 20:04:15 revisions = protected_pages.fold([], r,p -> r.concat(p.revisions)) 20:04:22 nice 20:04:27 where the fold is just regular code 20:04:30 instead of anything graph-specific 20:04:34 right 20:04:52 in ruby, it'd look like this 20:05:32 revisions = Page.find_all { |p| p.protected? }.inject([]) { |r, p| r + p.revisions } 20:06:53 19:59 I have a list of names and adresses of customers. How would that be stored? 20:07:00 it'd be stored as a graph :-P 20:07:53 ehird, none of this really help us get an understanding of what you mean 20:08:03 there's nothing to explain 20:08:04 it's a graph 20:08:05 that's it 20:08:13 there seems to be no wikipedia article on it, at least not with the name graph database or anything like that 20:08:38 because a graph database is just _a graph_ 20:08:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_(mathematics) 20:08:49 that's it 20:08:50 end of 20:08:52 full stop 20:08:56 * AnMaster looked at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_models and 20:09:07 Your mom's a graph. 20:09:09 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Databases 20:09:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_(mathematics) 20:09:21 look there. 20:10:53 ehird, would this imply that different objects of the same type can have different connectors, so not all pages need to link revisions, some could link something else instead 20:11:01 that every object is unique? 20:11:05 in it's type 20:11:13 essentially, yes 20:11:27 type information will be stored, but it won't be used to enforce data structure 20:11:36 ehird, because relational model is pretty much a graph where each node is a table and the links are on field basis 20:11:44 AnMaster: no. 20:11:50 ehird, no? 20:12:20 you can visualise the foreign key constraints as a graph 20:12:26 it is rather common to do so even 20:12:50 sure, but it's not just an arbitrary graph 20:13:02 um? 20:13:10 ah true 20:13:33 you mean the other object doesn't need a special field to act as a "connector"+ 20:13:34 ? 20:13:40 to match on 20:13:44 rather it is like pointers 20:13:55 of C structs or whatever 20:14:08 wellllllllllllll, 20:14:10 no. 20:14:57 ehird, hm? 20:16:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:16:36 hi ais523 20:16:38 OK, I need to counterbalance these glasses. 20:16:47 What should I mount to the left side? Taking all votes! :P 20:16:48 hi AnMaster 20:17:02 GregorR, another monitor! 20:17:17 that topic's ridiculous, surely? 20:17:22 it's grepping the logs for a link to the logs? 20:17:32 ais523: Yes, yes it is :P 20:17:39 AnMaster: I could do that, but that's /awfully/ pointless X-D 20:17:41 hah yes 20:17:51 Plus, would half the battery life of the whole system. 20:18:00 GregorR, why? doesn't it mean you will have stereo vision? 20:18:07 for the monitor 20:18:50 GAH 20:18:51 SOURCEFORGE 20:18:56 I HOPE YOU BURN IN A FIREY PIT OF DEATH 20:18:56 ehird, wait 20:18:59 let me guess 20:19:02 they changed theme again? 20:19:05 no 20:19:11 AnMaster: Can't use them both at once, the display is far outside of the center of my vision. 20:19:11 ok, what then? 20:19:26 i tried to download something and had to nab the direct link before they started automatically downloading it (FUCKERSFUCKERSFUCKERS) and then had to close that window and get it in wget 20:19:31 GregorR, oh it doesn't act like a HUD for the entire field of view? 20:19:35 how disappointing 20:19:47 AnMaster: That's the difference between $250 and $2500 20:19:52 ...oh 20:19:54 that sucks 20:19:57 ehird, eh just cancel the automated download? 20:19:59 i'm not your friend any more. 20:20:02 GregorR, ouch 20:20:05 AnMaster: no, fucking annoying 20:20:06 :| 20:20:20 ehird, I mean before you selected where to save it 20:20:28 i auto-download to the desktop 20:20:28 and the dialog for that isn't even modal 20:20:33 ehird, how insecure 20:20:36 and then put it where I want if I want to keep it 20:20:39 or delete it if I don't 20:20:41 AnMaster: wtf, how 20:20:48 ehird, auto open too? 20:20:49 also 20:20:51 no. 20:20:52 not auto open. 20:21:04 "go to this link" then what if it starts to auto download lots of crap 20:21:09 that you don't want 20:21:14 then i delete it 20:21:18 and send a mail saying "fuck you" to the site owner. 20:21:33 ehird, well if you have auto download turned on it is your own fault 20:21:37 no 20:21:38 go team sf.net! 20:21:39 that's untrue 20:21:44 Go team sf.net! 20:21:48 it's the site's fault for downloading 100 pieces of useless crap 20:22:02 just like it's the site's fault for having javascript that bounces the window around the screen 20:22:04 ehird, err it only tries to download the one you selected for download 20:22:18 AnMaster: i'm talking about this hypothetical: 20:21 "go to this link" then what if it starts to auto download lots of crap 20:22:24 you might want to upgrade to a memory longer than 4 seconds 20:22:38 ehird, in fact I was jumping back more than 4 seconds 20:22:49 back to the original topic 20:22:58 yes, I know 20:22:59 if you don't want auto download on sf.net, turn it off for that site then 20:23:02 add an exception 20:23:11 i can't. and I'd rather not use sf.net 20:23:14 which I don't. unless I have to. 20:23:18 ehird, then don't 20:23:30 then how do you propose I download software hosted there. 20:23:33 really I think this is a non-issue 20:23:44 because I just click cancel when it asks me where to save 20:23:59 if you auto download you asked for it 20:24:03 don't complain then 20:24:06 no, I didn't, you're an idiot 20:24:14 "This site does something really fucking annoying. It's the user's fault!" 20:24:34 ais523, what do you think? 20:24:49 bbl, going to play freedroid 20:24:57 I think that browsers auto-downloading is a configuration mistake 20:25:06 ais523, :) 20:25:08 I think it's convenient. 20:25:11 if only because it renders people open to accidenrally clicking on links to massive things 20:25:33 yeah, you know, I do have a cancel button 20:26:14 ehird, let me get this straight: 20:26:19 no, let's not 20:26:21 I don't care 20:26:25 1) you think auto download is convenient 20:26:33 20:26 no, let's not 20:26:34 20:26 I don't care 20:26:36 2) you think auto download at sf.net isn't convenient 20:26:56 20:26 no, let's not 20:26:56 20:26 I don't care 20:26:58 20:26 no, let's not 20:27:00 20:26 I don't care 20:27:02 20:26 no, let's not 20:27:04 20:26 I don't care 20:27:06 20:26 no, let's not 20:27:08 20:26 I don't care 20:27:10 20:26 no, let's not 20:27:12 20:26 I don't care 20:27:14 20:26 no, let's not 20:27:16 20:26 I don't care 20:27:31 ais523 well as usual he is going mad when he notices he contradicted himself... 20:27:36 no 20:27:43 i just really don't give a shit about what you have to say on the subject 20:27:57 *hiss* *meowr* 20:28:11 ehird never contradicts himself, his viewpoints are always perfectly consistent and he always finds a loophole to show that that's what he meant all along 20:28:36 that's nice. back when you're actually discussing something -> 20:28:37 -!- ehird has left (?). 20:36:30 ?help 20:36:32 @help 20:36:33 ,help 20:36:35 :help 20:36:37 ... 20:36:37 ... 20:36:43 ;help 20:36:46 #help 20:36:54 what the heck are you doing? 20:37:12 being lazy and finding bots in this channel that I can play with instead of checking the user list 20:40:39 CakeProphet: it's just fungot here atm 20:40:39 ais523: ' ' ' :image:voom fnord'" is being used under wikipedia:fair usefair use but there is 20:40:57 although running thutubot would be easy enough locally, it used to run on eso-std.org until ehird wiped it 20:46:09 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:52:55 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:53:39 ais523, run it on eso-std again? 20:54:10 eso-std is wiped atm 20:54:15 ais523, not reinstalled? 20:54:29 I don't even know if it has Perl installed 20:54:42 there's less on there atm than there is in a default clean install... 20:55:00 ais523, no aptitude, ehird told me that 21:11:43 I seem to remember ehird being less bitter. 21:22:00 it's a recent thing, due to happenings in nomic AFAICT 21:25:25 * kerlo nods 21:28:40 -!- Corun has joined. 21:31:03 ais523, well nomic isn't good for him 21:31:13 he is a bad looser 21:47:46 ais523, there? 21:47:52 something very strange just happened 21:47:58 yes, I'm here 21:48:07 someone named xlq, asked on another network if I knew "ais523" 21:48:12 heh 21:48:22 AnMaster: oh, I know xlq on another network 21:48:24 then he went on talking about same school or something *shrug* 21:48:30 hmm... maybe I should ask him if he knows AnMaster 21:48:31 ais523, irc.flightgear.org? 21:48:34 no 21:48:37 hm 21:48:38 irc.tty2.org 21:48:42 heh 21:48:59 ais523: do you know AnMaster? 21:49:07 ais523, how did he find out I know you? 21:49:14 no idea 21:49:15 I would like to know 21:50:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:51:09 ais523, any response from him yet 21:51:11 ? 21:51:19 not yet 21:51:22 hm 21:51:29 some oblique references I don't get, he asked if I knew FlightGear and I said no 21:51:58 ais523, well I know him from irc.flightgear.org 21:52:06 I know what flightgear is 21:52:15 a very good open source flight simulator 21:52:48 [21:52] No, it's just interesting 21:52:49 [21:52] when two seemingly unrelated people you know or half-know, turn out to know each other 21:57:29 * ais523 only just now figures out that kerlo = ihope 22:12:50 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. 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Puzzi."). 22:13:22 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:37:25 ais523: ihope use lots of different nicks 22:37:30 yes, I nkow 22:37:40 I should /whois people I don't recognise more often 23:02:08 -!- ehird has joined. 23:15:22 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:15:31 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 23:20:26 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:20:34 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 23:23:15 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:38:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:56:42 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2009-01-03: 00:16:33 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 00:23:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 00:28:27 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:39:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:50:04 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:56:14 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 00:57:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:00:37 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:04:14 -!- GregorR has joined. 02:06:11 -!- CakeProphet has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:19:28 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:38:47 -!- Judofyr has quit. 03:01:16 bf interpreter: http://hpaste.org/13554 03:29:12 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 03:31:03 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30234793&l=8428a&id=1055580469 03:41:31 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:03:22 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 04:11:31 hey does everyone have facebook?? 04:11:41 we should have an #esoteric facebook group 04:12:04 How about no 04:12:14 GregorR add me as a friend :D 04:12:40 On Facebook or Fetlife? 04:12:49 facebook 04:12:56 and fetlife if hes on fetlife 04:12:56 Lame. 04:20:08 GregorR: you have some debris on your glasses 04:23:09 psygnisfive: Oh, that's who that is :P 04:23:19 psygnisfive: I got a friend request and was about to send a message "Uh, do I know you?" 04:24:00 bsmntbombdood: Is the debris shaped like a large piece of plastic, glass and metal? 04:24:29 plastic,glass, and metal have no shape 04:24:54 there's already a http://www.facebook.com/groups.php?ref=sb#/group.php?gid=2410064537 04:24:57 But pieces do :P 04:25:34 uh, two '?' in a URL? is that even a valid URI? 04:30:02 yes 04:31:26 yeah, I just checked... I thought URI fragments were far more restricted :( 04:38:31 the ?'s are interpreted by the server 04:43:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:05:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:42:03 GregorR is on Facebook? 05:42:47 Hey, I do recognize that face. 06:00:33 I don't recognize that nick ... 06:00:55 Oh, /whois told me :P 06:01:52 -!- Vendan has joined. 06:13:53 USE ONE NICK PLOX 06:32:53 Whee! SNUSP interpreter, made in Second Life 06:32:55 http://files.vendaria.net/snusp_sl_001.png 07:06:54 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 07:07:27 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Nick collision from services.). 07:07:29 -!- seveninchbread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 07:17:04 -!- Vendan has quit ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:08:59 -!- Corun has joined. 08:56:57 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 08:59:36 -!- oklodol has joined. 09:00:18 anything interesting happen while i was gone? 09:00:33 -!- oklodol has changed nick to oklorol. 09:00:44 thought so. 10:47:33 -!- Judofyr has joined. 11:12:46 -!- decipher has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:12:46 -!- rodgort has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:14:16 -!- rodgort has joined. 11:14:16 -!- decipher has joined. 11:24:36 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:53:50 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:01:27 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:58:08 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:12:55 -!- Mony has joined. 13:13:53 yello 13:55:03 -!- jix has joined. 13:55:53 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 13:55:58 -!- jix has joined. 13:58:17 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 13:58:25 -!- jix has joined. 13:59:25 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 13:59:30 -!- jix has joined. 14:42:01 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:50:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:54:22 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:09:07 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:22:52 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:23:57 yello! 15:24:10 gree! 15:24:21 oooooh yeah 15:24:25 ooooooooooh yeaaaaaaaah 15:24:30 oooooooh yeaaah 15:24:32 the moooooon 15:24:39 beautiful 15:24:40 the suunn! 15:24:44 even more beautiful! 15:24:46 heh heh 15:24:48 oooooh yeeeaah 15:24:52 ooooooooooh yeeeeeaaah 15:24:56 ooooh yeaaaaaah 15:25:15 Oh shi- 15:25:23 The Kool Aid man is here D: 15:25:30 nothe yello man 15:25:42 apparently they dont have Yello in france 15:26:03 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcMHAM0cUbY 15:26:11 Did you look desperatly for it while in Fronce? 15:26:23 O est the yello! 15:27:19 they probably have it but l'Academie Francaise has demanded they call it something french 15:27:29 yeah 15:27:42 they were like 15:27:59 "we do not have ze yellow here.... eeeeeh zey are sweess!" 15:28:11 swees? 15:28:16 sweess! 15:28:22 from sweetzerland! 15:28:29 Are they? 15:28:36 Yello is, yes 15:28:56 * oerjan realizes yello is not a soft drink 15:29:13 oerjan, did you watch that video i just linked to? 15:29:33 also, the soft drink is mello yello 15:29:39 no 15:29:44 watch it 15:29:49 it explains absolutely nothing 15:30:26 Although it does make me thirsty for a good old Duff. 15:31:31 the video will basically just confuse the fuck out of you 15:31:59 http://img.lulz.net:8080/src/1229358859089.jpg 15:32:01 SCIENCE! 15:32:25 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:32:29 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:33:30 those are t-shirt designs you know 15:33:50 I know. 15:33:57 i forget where from 15:34:02 possible design by hümans 15:34:56 but probably not 15:36:12 maybe zorg? 15:36:29 or whatever theyre called 15:36:35 snorg? 15:36:38 thats it 15:36:46 lets see, is it snorg 15:37:02 ehh no 15:37:31 a veritable snorgasbord 15:37:41 veritably! 15:37:46 oh my god 15:37:50 i just had an idea 15:38:06 that unifies old timey with esoteric programming 15:38:20 WE SHOULD BUILD AN ANALYTICAL ENGINE!!! 15:38:29 It already exists, psygnisfive. 15:38:34 shut up slereah 15:38:37 :D 15:38:54 we can build an analytical engine and then dress up in old timey outfits! 15:39:02 steam punk esoteric programming 15:39:16 Do we need goggles? 15:39:19 I'll be countess lovelace 15:39:22 eh.. Yes! 15:39:24 and monocles! 15:39:25 yeah but where do we get the steam-powered death rays? 15:39:28 one for each eye! 15:39:38 one thing at a time, oerjan 15:39:44 first we build out analytical engine 15:40:34 I prefer to call her Lady Ada. 15:40:40 then use it to calculate the plans for a deadly corpuscular wave projector! 15:40:54 Lada Ada the Lovelace Lady. 15:40:57 s/a/y/ 15:40:59 ok fine, i'll be lady ada :| 15:41:31 what 15:41:32 Or the Countess of Lovelace if you so prefer. 15:41:35 also, afaik the analytical engine has _not_ been built. 15:41:50 oerjan : There's a program simulation 15:41:57 Lady Ada Countess Lovelace is how her name would've been said 15:42:16 i believe. british titles are weird in how they're used 15:42:32 they're preposed before the last name when reading someones full name 15:43:14 so its like Lord John Robert Duke Norwich 15:43:35 you're right, it hasn't been build oerjan 15:43:39 or so we think 15:44:13 how do we know the government hasnt constructed dozens of these calculating machines and used them to tabulate thousands of units of data about the citizenry?! 15:44:31 They have, psygnisfive 15:44:38 But they used regular calculating machines 15:44:45 It's way cheaper 15:44:54 DO NOT FRIGHTEN ME, SIR! 15:45:09 * psygnisfive hits slereah with his umbrella 15:45:25 Well old chap. 15:45:34 What would you say about a jolly old round of rogering? 15:45:34 CHEERIO MUSTACHE 15:45:51 oh splendid idea my good fellow, splendid idea! 15:46:26 god i love steam punk XD 15:46:46 I have the honour to remain, Madam, Your Majesty's most humble and obedient servant! 15:46:49 Wait, what? 15:47:34 http://community.livejournal.com/steamfashion/374499.html 15:47:46 that guy with the cyberpunk hair? i want his outfit 15:47:48 kerlo: Watt. specifically, his steam engine. 15:48:05 watt is a late comer 15:48:30 well you don't want to come too early 15:48:38 alexander had hes little steam striven ball, be it a toy, and the venicians were using steam turbines for centuries before watt 15:48:56 * oerjan sometimes doesn't believe himself 15:49:14 do you see his wonderful outfit?! 15:49:21 * Slereah pinches oerjan 15:53:03 that's what i thought i was just dreaming 15:53:06 *, 16:30:14 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:30:25 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 16:33:34 -!- ehird has left (?). 16:33:38 -!- ehird has joined. 16:59:22 Who wants to join my 'never check the return result of malloc()' club? 17:00:27 ehird: they aren't here, their clients crashed 17:00:45 ais523: Their IRC clients use all their fucking memory? 17:00:47 They have bigger problems. 17:01:06 Also, I assume YOUR irc client gracefully recovers from out of memory, ey? 17:01:18 (Exiting is not a recovery.) 17:01:25 (Exiting in that case = crashing.) 17:01:40 actually, it depends on the OS 17:01:52 checking malloc's return value is pointless on Linux nowadays unless you're doing very big allocs 17:02:03 because it's more likely to return a false value or kill your process than it is to return null 17:02:36 as far as I'm concerned, if there isn't enough memory to run my program, then that's the rest of the system's problem 17:03:59 some programs can recover sanely on out-of-memory 17:04:11 ais523: yes, about 3 of them. 17:04:13 by not doing whatever was using the memory 17:04:16 most of the time, it's not worth the trouble 17:04:21 ehird: Perl is one, if you compile it with special flags 17:04:32 ais523: it shouldn't, though 17:04:49 sure, you CAN go into StrippedDownMode, but if the computer has no memory left, I doubt using your program will be possible anyway. 17:04:53 or easy 17:06:22 ehird: just think about what's using the memory, and don't 17:06:30 for instance, say you're trying to open a file and it doesn't fit in memory 17:06:42 it would be graceful to just not open that file and let people continue editing the other files they have open 17:06:52 ais523: yes, that is one of the rare cases 17:06:53 or at least give them a chance to save them 17:07:03 I'm talking in general, here 17:07:09 the regular memory that your program uses for stuff 17:07:24 don't even bother wrapping it, it doesn't even buy you anything, it's such an edge case 17:40:35 hm. 17:40:55 yes, hindley-milner is a good idea. if you can pull it off. 17:41:57 lawlz. 17:42:06 grrrrrrrrrrr the next person that calls a language unreadable 17:42:08 will eat my fucking toes 17:44:04 Unreadable 17:45:34 * ehird kills Slereah 17:46:24 :D 17:46:53 * oerjan doesn't find Unreadable on the wiki 17:47:18 lawl 17:47:28 of course it would take something to beat the competition 17:48:21 whitespace-encoded Unlambda would take quite some reading 17:48:28 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 17:48:46 aye 17:50:34 Well, whitespace is already unreadable. 17:50:47 I decree that foobar. 17:51:03 you just need good syntax colouring. 17:52:03 O_O 17:52:20 there are editors to syntax-colour Whitespace 17:52:27 but even with syntax colouring, Whitespace is hard to read 17:58:42 whitespace can surely be trivially ciphered into something more readable 18:00:30 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 18:04:49 well isn't it just a stack thingie 18:04:58 yeah 18:05:12 oklorol!? 18:05:14 with an r?! 18:05:22 and why not? 18:05:30 it doesnt feel right D: 18:05:42 the ok and the use of several os have been pretty much the only stable part of oklorol's nick 18:05:45 indeed it doesn't. 18:05:54 although I still think of them as oklopol, probably because that's the most common one 18:06:13 did you know the piraha change names every few months? 18:06:14 well i agree with psygnisfive, "rol" just doesn't work that well. 18:06:27 the fist? 18:06:28 *fish 18:06:36 no no 18:06:41 thats piranha 18:06:50 yes, but could've been a typo. 18:06:50 the pirahã are a tribe in the amazon 18:07:03 that i did *not* know. 18:07:06 i dont maek typos 18:07:24 i know you don't. it was a pretty surreal joke. 18:07:34 its true tho 18:07:42 they change names every few months 18:07:47 ... 18:07:47 i mean mine 18:07:53 i know you're not joking 18:07:56 and not necessarily like.. "I am now Bob!" 18:07:58 more like 18:08:06 "You dont feel like a Jack any more.. you're more of a Bob." 18:08:47 DO THEIR SOULS CHANGE TOO? 18:09:17 they dont have souls 18:09:51 are they trying to make up for that with all the names? 18:10:04 yes 18:10:07 ah. 18:10:11 makes sense 18:10:16 -!- oklorol has changed nick to oklosol. 18:10:40 still not right but better 18:10:46 yes 18:12:07 i should probably do something soon 18:12:16 been awake for 12 hours, done nothing yet :-) 18:15:13 im probably going to go to bed for another hour or two 18:15:28 hf 18:16:18 oklokok and oklohol. its what you use to oklofok 18:16:19 :o 18:16:31 :D 18:17:16 oklohol sounds more like an alcoholic beverage to me. 18:18:35 mm 18:18:41 i'd drink it ;O 18:18:57 i'm sure you would :) 18:19:02 Olkohol 18:19:05 get a channel 18:23:17 hmm. actually i think i'll just sleep a mo 18:23:19 well. 18:23:20 till morning 18:23:21 -> 18:28:08 oklosol is a solution. 18:28:22 Wait, no, it isn't. 18:28:36 It's a suspension of fine solid particles or liquid droplets in oklopol. 18:30:29 Semen. 18:32:56 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 18:33:04 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:33:25 oklosol is okloscented 18:33:38 cleans your windows wonderfully! 18:33:42 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive. 18:35:35 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:35:44 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 18:52:12 bye 18:52:15 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 18:52:37 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:52:42 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:07:50 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:09:54 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:16:08 -!- Corun has joined. 19:19:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:21:57 -!- LinuS has joined. 19:43:09 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:49:38 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:46:31 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 21:55:11 ehird: I'm reading through the happy-hour PAM and other useful programs thing you linked earlier 21:55:18 I especially like the block-device version of /dev/null 21:55:25 cdrewind is brilliance 21:55:33 http://www.brendangregg.com/Specials/cdrewind 21:55:36 in theory, you could use that to test mke2fs or similar programs which work best on block devices 21:55:40 and yes, I like it too 21:55:57 hmm... mightn't it cause the CD to always be the right way up when you take it out of the drive? 21:56:06 it's annoying to take out a CD and see it has an upside-down logo 21:56:09 ha 21:56:15 it's like the thing rotates inside the drive 21:56:31 my cd blunder is putting it in wrong side up 21:56:46 this imac could do with a little form over function in that area, there's no eject button... 21:56:59 i got it ejected once from the os, I don't recall how 21:57:07 /dev/notrandom is kind-of fun 21:57:18 also, I have 5 ways to eject on here 21:57:19 i like how it consists of infinite bleeps 21:57:23 to simulate catting /dev/random 21:58:03 does it delay every few seconds like random? 21:58:03 it should 21:58:04 eject button, Fn-F10, eject from command-line, eject icon on Nautilus that's utterly ripped off from Mac OS X, right-click and choose eject 21:58:17 (that's one of Mac OS X's better ideas, though, I'm glad Ubuntu shamelessly stole it) 21:58:44 i'm pretty sure every gui environment since the macintosh has stolen from it :P 21:58:46 except maybe plan 9. 21:59:05 oh, yes 21:59:12 but this was a newish idea they stole, not an old one 21:59:15 also, what about Smalltalk? 21:59:26 well, I was about to say the macintosh stole wholesale from xerox parc. 21:59:54 also, wow at ged.jar 21:59:59 and they did both the Alto and Smalltalk 22:00:03 at similra times 22:00:09 I think it's a bad idea for much the same reason as gvim, by the way 22:00:15 Much later, in the midst of the Apple v. Microsoft lawsuit in which Apple accused Microsoft of violating its copyright by appropriating the use of the "look and feel" of the Macintosh GUI, Xerox also sued Apple on the same grounds. 22:00:20 ^ brilliant 22:00:20 I like vi, but think gvim is kind-of missing the point 22:00:29 and yes, that is brilliant 22:01:18 ais523: the sam editor for plan9 is basically multi-document ed 22:01:20 it has a top command pane 22:01:23 and little file windows 22:01:42 the file windows are just for seeing what you're doing :P 22:01:51 iirc, ken thompson uses it as his main editor 22:02:05 before that? 22:02:05 ed. 22:02:53 I've edited with sed before now 22:03:02 ed is similar but more interactive-friendly 22:03:50 -!- bloreg has joined. 22:04:14 -!- Ilke has joined. 22:04:16 hi 22:04:18 anyone awake 22:04:21 hi 22:04:21 yes 22:04:46 -!- Ilke has set topic: YOU'RE AWAKE MOTHERFUCKER??? GET A REAL LANGUAGE! GET LAID! GET OFF THIS CHANNEL DIPSHIT. 22:04:49 -!- Ilke has left (?). 22:04:54 yes, I'm awake 22:04:54 just about 22:07:28 ... 22:07:35 what a sad fucker :) 22:07:43 -!- jkele has joined. 22:07:49 jkele: hi, ilke. 22:07:54 -!- ais523 has set topic: Logs are here: `wget http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.12.29 -O - 2> /dev/null | grep 'logs >>>' | sed 's/.*logs >>> \(.*\) <<<.*/\1/'`. 22:08:00 -!- jkele has set topic: ehird sad is your momMOTHERFUCKER!!! GET A REAL LANGUAGE! GET LAID! GET OFF THIS CHANNEL DIPSHIT. 22:08:03 -!- jkele has left (?). 22:08:04 wow 22:08:05 a troll 22:08:08 yep 22:08:10 -!- ais523 has set topic: Logs are here: `wget http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.12.29 -O - 2> /dev/null | grep 'logs >>>' | sed 's/.*logs >>> \(.*\) <<<.*/\1/'`. 22:08:13 hahaha, what a fucking retard 22:08:15 :D 22:08:18 also, yay for a client that stores topic history 22:08:18 I'm disappointed. 22:08:37 jkele No such nick/channel 22:08:43 Coward! 22:08:45 well, we have the whois data 22:08:48 woah, wait, "ehird sad is your mom"? 22:08:49 LOL 22:08:50 and jkele = Ilke, pretty obviously 22:08:57 given the identical whois 22:08:59 and name similarity 22:09:01 and behaviour similarity 22:09:07 Who's Ilke? 22:09:13 the previous troll. 22:09:16 who came in 3 seconds before him. 22:09:18 cheriire@cpe-76-87-77-169.socal.res.rr.com 22:09:21 and did the same thing. 22:09:32 may as well preserve the whois for the logs, in case anyone decides to google it or whatever 22:09:36 now the question - 22:09:37 Yes, but I was mostly looking for where he hangs out 22:09:44 where did he come from, why did he do that, and who is he? 22:10:02 i really can't think why you'd do that, i mean, it's just a stupid little channel that nobody really cares about 22:10:04 it's someone who at least knows a bit about what the channel's for 22:10:08 given what he put in the topic 22:10:22 His mom was raped by Brainfuck 22:10:26 -!- klslss has joined. 22:10:31 klslss: not you again 22:10:32 so tell us 22:10:34 who are you 22:10:36 where're you from 22:10:40 -!- klslss has set topic: EHIRD WILL SUCK MY BALLS AND HIS MOM's! Slereah will do the same because he's a opwhore! REST OF YOU FUCKWITS GET A REAL LANGUAGE, LEARN A REAL LANGUAGE AND STOP BEING WUSSIES FROM START TREK!. 22:10:41 and why are you targeting this tiny place. 22:10:42 -!- klslss has left (?). 22:10:47 ahahahahahahahah 22:10:57 He is on no other channel. 22:11:03 ahahahahahgahahahahahahaha 22:11:03 -!- ais523 has set topic: Logs are here: `wget http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.12.29 -O - 2> /dev/null | grep 'logs >>>' | sed 's/.*logs >>> \(.*\) <<<.*/\1/'`. 22:11:10 A sockpuppet just to troll our little place? 22:11:12 how old are you, log-reading troll? 22:11:15 I feel honored. 22:11:16 7? 22:11:18 can't be much more 22:11:56 Well, here's one for our log reading troll then. 22:11:57 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Argh/1221655091974.jpg 22:12:05 Slereah: what's that a link to? 22:12:14 ais523: don't click. 22:12:16 I'm obviously not planning to click on it given content 22:12:17 ais523 : Something you'd better not click 22:12:32 oerjan: don't click on the above link 22:12:38 I know you aren't here, but IIRC you logread 22:12:47 EVERYONE: don't click on the above link. 22:12:58 Slereah: just don't paste that sort of link in 22:13:03 wait 22:13:06 I subtract the troll from EVERYONE 22:13:47 * ais523 wonders if the troll actually deduced the logs from the topic 22:13:52 by running the resulting program 22:14:32 -!- klslvoeoe has joined. 22:14:38 -!- klslvoeoe has set topic: you can subtract your mom from my dick because she's old and you're a stupid fuckface! now LEARN C or say perl! stop being esoteric asswads. 22:14:39 -!- klslvoeoe has left (?). 22:15:00 How can someone know what C and Perl is and be so absolutely fucking braindead? 22:15:08 -!- ais523 has set topic: Logs are here: `wget http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.12.29 -O - 2> /dev/null | grep 'logs >>>' | sed 's/.*logs >>> \(.*\) <<<.*/\1/'`. 22:15:20 i wonder why he thinks we even care. 22:15:22 do we have any live ops? 22:15:28 nah. 22:15:33 he'll give up eventually. 22:15:42 unless he's I_RULE in disguise. 22:15:54 which is...very possible 22:16:00 well, telling freenode might help stop them trolling other channels that care more 22:16:09 Maybe he comes from /prog/ :o 22:16:10 freenode don't do that kind of thing. 22:16:32 I_RULE claimed to have been "harrassed and threatened" by me over /msg in #freenode, they just told him to ignore me. 22:16:36 (Of course, the whole thing was made up.) 22:16:36 what, kill trolls? 22:16:47 for specific channels, they tell you to take it up with that channel's op 22:17:02 Who's that channel's op? 22:17:10 alive: lament, fizzie. 22:17:15 bsmnt_bot, destroy him! 22:17:15 active: fizzie. 22:17:19 ha 22:17:25 ~exec sys.stdout('pew pew pew') 22:17:26 pew pew pew 22:17:32 :D 22:17:39 ehird 22:17:41 I <3 u 22:17:48 -!- JSKSKSLVE has joined. 22:17:50 o u 22:17:51 -!- JSKSKSLVE has set topic: NO LIVE OPS!!! get with the program! C or perl!. 22:17:52 -!- JSKSKSLVE has left (?). 22:18:01 -!- Slereah has set topic: NO LIVE OPS!!! get with the program! Python!. 22:18:05 Hey, he stopped insulting our mothers. 22:18:06 -!- ais523 has set topic: Logs are here: `wget http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.12.29 -O - 2> /dev/null | grep 'logs >>>' | sed 's/.*logs >>> \(.*\) <<<.*/\1/'`. 22:18:28 -!- ehird has set topic: NO DEAD OPS!!! get out of the program! Brainfuck! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 22:18:32 I'm shocked that this man would claim that C is a real language. 22:18:49 C and Perl are pretty different in philosophy... 22:18:55 with c you can be a real man. 22:18:57 and both are arguably esoteric 22:19:02 and allocate memory with your huge manly manliness. 22:19:02 -!- jkvkasas has joined. 22:19:05 although not as esoteric as most of the stuff we discuss here 22:19:05 wb 22:19:06 -!- jkvkasas has set topic: BRAINFUCK IS NOT WHAT EVERYBODY WANTS OR USES! you fucking cunts, learn a real language!. 22:19:07 -!- jkvkasas has left (?). 22:19:08 how are you today 22:19:15 -!- ais523 has set topic: Logs are here: `wget http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.12.29 -O - 2> /dev/null | grep 'logs >>>' | sed 's/.*logs >>> \(.*\) <<<.*/\1/'`. 22:19:18 does he realise we just do this for fun? 22:19:28 "BRAINFUCK IS NOT WHAT EVERYBODY WANTS OR USES! " -- sounds like an enterprise idiot 22:19:42 * ehird waits for his delayed topic-response. 22:20:02 ehird: can you easily bring back optbot? 22:20:07 'twould seem to be the perfect response 22:20:21 -!- jvkdkdke has joined. 22:20:25 -!- jvkdkdke has set topic: enterprise idiot? OH AND YOU GUYS AREN'T AND ARE SUPPOSED TO GET A BIGGER PAYCHECK BECAUSE OF THOSE REASONS? LOLOLOL, YOU SOUND LIKE A VB SCHMUCK!. 22:20:28 -!- jvkdkdke has left (?). 22:20:29 -!- optbot has joined. 22:20:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Rule: You must violate this rule.. 22:20:30 He can be programmed to hunt him down with his laser. 22:20:30 besides, nobody's forcing anyone to use BF 22:20:48 we're not doing this for a paycheck, you retard. 22:20:56 ehird: two log links? optbot cares about them even more than I and oklosol do 22:20:56 ais523: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Rule: You must violate this rule. 22:21:03 oh dear. 22:21:08 oh, you've only given it one line of input 22:21:10 optbot? 22:21:10 ais523: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Rule: You must violate this rule. 22:21:15 are you so insecure that you can't deal with a bunch of people - many of whom, in fact, I believe have been "laid" - messing around with computation? 22:21:16 -!- optbot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:21:19 The answer, is yes. 22:21:47 -!- optbot has joined. 22:21:47 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I doubt it's like that. 22:21:52 I think it is, optbot. 22:21:53 ehird: sounds pimpcash 22:21:58 Yes. Very pimpcash, optbot. 22:21:58 ehird: really isn't? damn :\ 22:22:01 optbot: no, is. 22:22:01 ehird: yes 22:22:03 optbot: yes 22:22:04 ehird: just as long as it doesn't involve smurfs. FOR MERCY'S SAKE, NO SMURFS 22:22:06 -!- KVDLWW has joined. 22:22:08 optbot: okay, okay, no smurfs. 22:22:09 ehird: d(4/b(4))-4/4 = 80 22:22:09 -!- KVDLWW has set topic: THEN WHAT DO YOU CARE ABOUT? USE A REAL LANGUAGE! SERIOUSLYT! AND IF YOU'RE USING BRAINFUCK AS A HOBBYIST, YOU CAN START OFF BY GETTING a different hobby like maybe going out and getting laid like NORMAL PEOPLE?!. 22:22:11 optbot: say hi to KVDLWW 22:22:11 ehird: How's that :P 22:22:12 -!- KVDLWW has left (?). 22:22:13 optobt! 22:22:15 optbot! 22:22:15 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | no. 22:22:25 I got laid yesterday :D 22:22:33 troll: how do you think we implement BF, if not in real languages/ 22:22:38 wait wait wait. 22:23:03 Dear anonymous coward troll: Why don't you go get laid like NORMAL PEOPLE, instead of trolling an IRC channel? 22:23:03 well, in reality we implement it in esolangs 22:23:03 but that's because we're us 22:23:05 After all, the two are obviously mutually incompatible. 22:23:08 Just as with esolangs, right? 22:23:32 Guys. 22:23:35 Stop caring. 22:23:39 This is fun. 22:23:40 Like, actually not caring. 22:23:46 Because he's an idiot. 22:24:39 * ais523 deplores the current decline in the quality of internet trolling 22:24:46 trolls used to actually be good back decades ago 22:24:51 quite 22:24:52 and not be recognised as trolls for weeks 22:24:54 Yeah, where are the 50 Hitlers? 22:24:59 Heck, I'd prefer the GNAA or 4chan to this moron. 22:25:10 -!- Slereah has changed nick to Epic_Fail_Guy. 22:25:11 then, when the conversation got interesting and bizzare, you got the YHBT. YHL. HAND. 22:25:13 Someone rang? 22:25:15 and that was that 22:25:21 NickServ- This nickname is registered. 22:25:23 Oh shi- 22:25:37 Epic_Fail_Guy: no, you have to start 100 clones and spam the channel with "FUCK" 22:25:39 -!- Epic_Fail_Guy has changed nick to Slereah. 22:25:43 get it right 22:25:53 ehird : I used to have a program like that 22:25:59 I think it's on Partyvan. 22:26:00 Slereah: what's the point? 22:26:06 ais523: trolling. 22:26:08 is the point. 22:26:09 :D 22:26:10 all IRC networks ban clonebots nowadays anyway 22:26:25 ais523: I've ran clonebots in #esoteric-blah for an okoplay. 22:26:33 they spammed fast and weren't banned 22:26:37 that was only 2 of them, not hundreds 22:26:41 no 22:26:43 i had another variation 22:26:45 with like 30 22:26:56 hmm... there should be a mode on channels meaning "this channel allows clonebots and spamming" 22:27:08 ha 22:27:09 hmm... maybe a +trolling/-trolling mode too 22:27:21 not entirely sure what would happen if a troll came in and it was turned off 22:27:29 It ought to be noted that despite the pseudo-mathematical styling of this formulation, it is mathematically equivalent to saying "Sometimes people make comparisons involving Nazis or Hitler," and thus means pretty much nothing. 22:27:34 -- Encyclopedia Dramatica on Godwin's Law 22:27:55 ehird: it actually means "the longer a thread gets, the more likely it is that someone will make a Godwin comparison" 22:27:55 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 22:28:01 but that comes to much the same thing 22:28:12 -!- kskskssldlld has joined. 22:28:16 -!- kskskssldlld has set topic: /quit fuckers. 22:28:18 -!- kskskssldlld has left (?). 22:28:19 there are some bizzare potential counterexamples, say the law would be false if the first message in a thread had a 50% chance of mentioning hitler 22:28:21 but none of the others did 22:28:27 -!- ais523 has set topic: Logs are here: `wget http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.12.29 -O - 2> /dev/null | grep 'logs >>>' | sed 's/.*logs >>> \(.*\) <<<.*/\1/'`. 22:28:42 gee troll you sure are making our lives hard 22:28:43 not 22:28:48 kskskssldlld: you're doing it wrong, if you want to quit someone else from IRC you type /quit name into your client, not into the topic 22:28:52 besides, fuckers isn't in here atm anyway 22:29:09 i like the part where he's getting more and more lazy 22:29:14 right now I long for the days of me sucking balls. 22:29:39 ehird: that sounds wrong 22:29:47 intentional 22:30:34 -!- alexholowczak has joined. 22:30:42 Weird 22:30:45 alexholowczak: hi, are you the troll? 22:30:46 No 22:30:48 no, he isn't 22:30:49 hooray. 22:30:51 I was told of a troll. 22:30:51 The spamming program is not on Partyvan. 22:30:54 he knows me from another channel 22:30:57 ah. 22:30:57 So I thought I'd poke my nose in. :-P 22:31:00 he's never seen a troll, so he came to watch 22:31:00 Maybe it was on Patriotic Nigra. 22:31:11 alexholowczak: be braced for topic profanity. 22:31:16 he'll be back in a minute... 22:31:20 (22:30:38) ehird: alexholowczak: hi, are you the troll? <- What would you have done if I said "yes"? :-P 22:31:30 Or... would you expect him to say "yes"? :-P 22:31:37 alexholowczak: commended you for having actually said something in the channel :P 22:31:40 -!- Judofyr has joined. 22:31:46 and Judofyr isn't the troll either 22:31:52 or... maybe he is! 22:31:56 wrong continent 22:31:57 * ehird dramatic music 22:32:01 ais523: proxies! 22:32:02 ehird: Yes, I know that IRC has a reputation for not having anything happen... ever. 22:32:04 either that, or being very clever with proxies 22:32:23 gah. Colloquy won't let me see what you write! 22:32:24 alexholowczak: this troll delivers messages by coming in with a dsfkjsdfkj-style nick, setting the channel, and parting again 22:32:25 :-( 22:32:34 ehird: I see. 22:32:39 see: the logs :P 22:32:39 Judofyr: why not? 22:32:52 it's just blank :P 22:32:54 probably a bug 22:33:00 or 22:33:05 it _is_ a bug 22:33:05 well, you can see what we're saying now 22:33:07 presumably 22:33:37 presumably, you say? :P 22:33:53 I can read the raw IRC-stream, though 22:34:00 Just as I join... and the troll doesn't return. 22:34:01 ah, ok 22:34:03 is it a known bug 22:34:07 alexholowczak: he'll be back 22:34:11 Ah right. 22:34:12 he was away for quite a bit last time 22:34:14 alexholowczak: trolls aren't used to people reacting intelligently, we must have confused them 22:34:19 lol 22:34:40 heh 22:34:40 quick, ais523, talk about computation 22:34:40 ais523: dunno 22:34:40 good IRC client for mac, anyone? 22:34:53 limecaht!!!!!! 22:34:55 Judofyr: ehird should know one, he used one for ages 22:34:59 http://limechat.net/mac/ 22:34:59 and probably still does 22:35:02 Somebody poke me if the troll returns... Indeed it may not be your priority... But it'd be appreciated. :-P 22:35:11 -!- VKDKAKKE has joined. 22:35:14 -!- VKDKAKKE has set topic: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA get a realLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LANGUAGE. 22:35:15 alexholowczak: he's back 22:35:15 Hey buddy 22:35:18 -!- VKDKAKKE has left (?). 22:35:18 Yeah 22:35:19 I saw. 22:35:21 lol 22:35:25 this is exciting 22:35:28 My client went grey when he appeared. 22:35:30 like... retarded fireworks! 22:35:40 -!- ais523 has set topic: Logs are here: `wget http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.12.29 -O - 2> /dev/null | grep 'logs >>>' | sed 's/.*logs >>> \(.*\) <<<.*/\1/'`. 22:35:45 This is intelligent spamming though. 22:35:50 He's insulting a programming language. 22:35:56 which one, though? 22:35:58 for some values of intelligent 22:36:03 This isn't YouTube commenting type spamming. 22:36:06 he insulted BF earlier, but not on any particularly insightful grounds 22:36:24 alexholowczak: it's worse because he's shown a cursory knowledge of the existence of C, Perl and brainfuck 22:36:25 he's just jealous of a channel where you can do this: 22:36:30 Hey, guy, what do you think of Lazy K? 22:36:31 ^bf ,[.,]!Look at this! 22:36:31 Look at this! 22:36:38 you can't easily do that with C 22:36:42 Yes, but by doing it by insulting a programming language is... not usual. 22:36:43 -!- casmith_789 has joined. 22:36:50 hi casmith_789 22:36:55 help, we're being invaded by troll-watchers 22:36:57 ehird: He's bot inspecting too, I believe. 22:36:58 hi 22:37:02 .c printf("hello world\n"); /* don't tempt me ais523 */ 22:37:05 casmith_789: how long until the whole of the rest of the channel turns up? 22:37:09 s/bot/troll/ 22:37:11 He attracts tourism. 22:37:12 lol 22:37:21 we should have people come in and fake trolling 22:37:23 for the publicity 22:37:23 He's a valuable asset to this communauty. 22:37:34 The rest of the channel won't be that interested. 22:38:15 ^bf >,[>,]<[.<]!Playing around with BF is fun. 22:38:15 .nuf si FB htiw dnuora gniyalP 22:38:19 I'm worried - is that programming language I see c? 22:38:25 casmith_789: that was :-P 22:38:29 ehird pasted a line of C above 22:38:30 casmith_789: It's probably esoteric... Oh. 22:38:30 brb, switching to LimeChat :-) 22:38:32 -!- Judofyr has quit. 22:38:32 but there isn't a Cbot in here 22:38:41 Good. 22:38:42 ais523: I was threatening to add that to botte. 22:38:44 C is an awful language. 22:38:51 ehird: it would be hard to get it working correctly 22:38:54 Hey, guy, why don't you take up Python? 22:38:58 It's an awesome language. 22:38:59 although writing .c #define NULL argv would be fun 22:39:01 Or Scheme! 22:39:06 ais523: not really, import standard headers, wrap in main(void) { ... } 22:39:08 Slereah: Are you xlq in disguise? :-P 22:39:08 or Smalltalk? 22:39:09 err 22:39:15 alexholowczak: no 22:39:15 int main(void) { ...; return 0; } 22:39:25 and run in sandbox 22:39:27 xlq? 22:39:28 * ais523 waits for AnMaster to wonder wtf is going on 22:39:42 Slereah: He's someone who I know... Who always goes on about how great python is. 22:39:48 -!- Judofyr has joined. 22:39:51 hi Judofyr 22:39:52 Well, it is! 22:39:53 Perl vs. Python is one of the big Holy Wars 22:39:53 hi! 22:39:59 just like emacs vs. vi 22:40:01 I don't know Perl 22:40:06 or 1tbs vs. BSD-style indentation 22:40:07 ruby :P 22:40:08 So I'll just go PYTHON ACKBAR >:| 22:40:22 Judofyr: limechat is written in ruby FWIW :P 22:40:28 well, everyone: 22:40:33 cool 22:40:41 looks like time to go home, anyway 22:40:42 -!- casmith_789 has quit (Client Quit). 22:40:44 hmm on further inspection the site says that 22:40:46 about 3 times 22:40:47 bye ais523 22:40:50 ais523, ? 22:40:50 you'll have to have fun troll-watching on your own 22:40:51 what? 22:40:55 AnMaster: someone mentioned xlq 22:40:55 AnMaster: we have a troll. 22:40:57 who wasn't me 22:41:00 also, we have a troll 22:41:02 ais523 pinged you for some reason 22:41:07 -!- JKLELVE has joined. 22:41:10 ooh he's back 22:41:10 -!- JKLELVE has set topic: befunge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ftw! and its not some stupid python vs perl flame war! it's about being rational on what languages can be used and what hobbies you people need to revaluate!. 22:41:12 -!- JKLELVE has left (?). 22:41:16 // 22:41:18 Wait. 22:41:19 Befunge ftw? 22:41:23 Isn't this guy anti-eso/ 22:41:25 ehird, huh 22:41:30 Everyone <3 Befunge, ehird 22:41:32 Hoe did he see that? 22:41:34 AnMaster: apparently I suck balls! 22:41:36 He wasn't here at the time. 22:41:37 alexholowczak: He log watches, duh. 22:41:40 Ah. 22:41:43 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.01.03 22:41:43 ehird, report to opers and/or chanops 22:41:43 bye, anyway 22:41:45 Sorry: New to this. :-P 22:41:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 22:41:47 AnMaster: there are none, stupid 22:41:49 :P 22:41:56 also, freenode oeprs don't deal with cahnnel-specific thngs 22:41:56 ehird, lament? 22:42:00 lament is never here 22:42:09 besides, he'll tire soon enough 22:42:11 Camping is probably the framework for you guys: http://github.com/why/camping/tree/master/lib%2Fcamping.rb 22:42:13 :P 22:42:15 meanwhile, he's amusingly idiotic 22:42:16 -!- jvkelfoe has joined. 22:42:19 -!- jvkelfoe has set topic: report?! LOLOLOLOL suck it up and accept the fact i'm right here! esosteric languages suck monkey balls!. 22:42:20 -!- jvkelfoe has left (?). 22:42:22 Judofyr: i love camping, it's ridiculous 22:42:30 ehird, yes he is, he made a zen comment just a few a weeks ago 22:42:33 troll: like we'd dignify you with a reporting. 22:42:36 and then went away again 22:42:41 AnMaster: whatever 22:42:42 in my local repo I've manged to get it below 3k 22:42:43 Hrm? 22:42:48 fizzie: troll 22:42:48 see above 22:42:51 he's been here for hours XD 22:42:52 Maybe I should do at +t, then. 22:42:55 aww 22:42:58 well, yes. 22:43:04 Do that, fizzie 22:43:06 anyway going afk again, studying for test 22:43:09 fizzie have op? 22:43:10 Maybe he'll talk to us for reals :D 22:43:11 -!- ehird has set topic: TAKE THIS | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 22:43:13 +t it 22:43:16 and force him to USE MESSAGES 22:43:23 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 22:43:51 yes he has 22:43:58 and he can even edit access list it seems 22:43:58 fizzie: +t? :{ 22:44:02 from a quick look 22:44:07 ehird: hm... I can't see when other talks in other channels, though :/ 22:44:10 (in limechat) 22:44:11 fizzie has been an op since like 2003 22:44:13 Judofyr: yes you can 22:44:15 it goes blue 22:44:17 and comes on the console 22:44:18 (bottom pane) 22:44:30 -!- iivkee has joined. 22:44:32 00:44:20 [freenode] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- The KEEPTOPIC flag has been set for channel #esoteric. 22:44:32 -!- iivkee has set topic: +t? HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA no this is what you do, type /j #C. 22:44:34 -!- iivkee has left (?). 22:44:39 oh.. 22:44:40 fizzie: no 22:44:41 not keep topic 22:44:43 that's a chanserv thang 22:44:44 I have no idea what that does. 22:44:47 Judofyr: it's just like colloquy 22:44:50 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 22:44:52 Freenode is so confusing! 22:44:53 fizzie: just +t 22:44:54 I see 22:45:00 /mode +t #esoteric :P 22:45:16 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie. 22:45:21 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: +t. 22:45:22 -!- viekwke has joined. 22:45:25 -!- viekwke has left (?). 22:45:28 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -t. 22:45:28 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -t. 22:45:32 haha! 22:45:39 -!- VKEKWEKW has joined. 22:45:43 -!- VKEKWEKW has set topic: what it does is YOU CANT CHANGE THE FUCKING TOPIC YOU FUCKING CUNTS WASTING TIME ON LANGUAGES THAT HAVE 0 VALUE {}. 22:45:46 -!- VKEKWEKW has left (?). 22:45:48 Heh, modelocked to not have +t. Freenode, how silly you are. 22:46:00 fizzie, keep topic means the topic will be restored after a netsplit or such 22:46:03 -!- Slereah has set topic: Woooo, ghost blowjob!. 22:46:05 as when it goes empty 22:46:07 anyway 22:46:14 fizzie, do you have +s in flags? 22:46:16 -!- ehird has left (?). 22:46:18 -!- ehird has joined. 22:46:24 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +t. 22:46:25 then you can change the modelock 22:46:31 Yes. 22:46:34 :) 22:46:39 fizzie, also ban him maybe? 22:46:40 -!- fizzie has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 22:46:40 fizzie: add +t to the modelock, then. 22:46:44 he uses the same ip all the time 22:46:48 Yes, that sounds like a good idea. 22:46:53 yeah. +1 on ban 22:47:03 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: +b *!n=checker@c-68-55-8-210.hsd1.md.comcast.net. 22:47:09 Let's start with something that exact. 22:47:13 sure 22:47:15 At least there's something to evade. 22:47:16 Why didn't you do that ages ago? 22:47:21 fizzie: I like our new permanent topic. 22:47:22 NO 22:47:24 DON'T BAN HIM 22:47:26 he's hilarious 22:47:29 you nazi 22:47:29 .. 22:47:31 nooooooooooooooooooooo 22:47:32 >:( 22:47:34 you suck. 22:47:37 trollwatching is fun. 22:47:40 he's used a different ident. 22:47:46 hey troll, come troll #esoteric-SANS-FASCISM 22:47:53 lol 22:48:00 ^^ 22:48:05 ehird, in that case 22:48:17 changing the topic is censorship 22:48:18 It's a fair chance he'll bother evading at least that particular ban. 22:48:22 preventing free speech 22:48:30 :P 22:49:18 AnMaster: IT IS. 22:49:24 troll please come back with a different ident 22:49:26 i miss you already. 22:49:42 you scared him away 22:49:45 bastard 22:49:54 -!- ehird_Im_here has joined. 22:50:01 hahahahahahah 22:50:04 finally +t 22:50:04 ? 22:50:05 Why hello, man who's ehird 22:50:06 LOLROFLMAO 22:50:07 sadddd 22:50:11 -!- ehird_Im_here has left (?). 22:50:16 Lame. 22:50:17 :DDD 22:50:19 -!- optbot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:50:23 won't need him for a while 22:50:25 Just ban him, he's not dedicated to entertain us. 22:50:34 NO. 22:50:39 he is my new lover. 22:50:42 :O 22:50:43 See, you got what you asked for. And it was even a different IP. 22:50:46 fizzie, hm he changed ip too 22:50:47 i know fizzie 22:50:48 ah yes 22:50:49 I love it 22:50:54 he's so dedicated<333 22:51:03 ehird, how did this start 22:51:10 it is way out of my scrollback by now 22:51:12 I got 4-5 WEP-encrypted networks ATM 22:51:17 AnMaster: he came in and asked if anyone was ther 22:51:18 I said yes 22:51:23 he changed the topic to tell us to get laid 22:51:23 and then? 22:51:24 and parted 22:51:28 wtf 22:51:29 then he started doing this, basically. 22:51:37 ehird, wonder why he started doing that 22:51:42 AnMaster: he wants us to use real languages, like C and Perl, apparently 22:51:48 -_- 22:51:50 and wants us to change our hobby to 'getting laid' 22:51:57 whereas he's content himself with 'trolling IRC channels' 22:52:04 ehird, well we do use such languages, to write interpreters in 22:52:14 ais523 already said that, 22:52:18 ok 22:53:05 I'm leaving now... The interest has passed. :-P 22:53:09 -!- alexholowczak has quit ("Leaving."). 22:53:47 I can understand the "you should use real languages" thing, but he/she seems so uncommonly... intense about it. 22:54:10 who was alexholowczak 22:54:10 ? 22:54:21 Well, he's a troll 22:54:33 er, no 22:54:36 AnMaster: from #chess 22:54:41 ais523 invited him to troll watch 22:54:44 oh 22:54:53 fizzie: he desperately cares that we are all laid 22:54:55 so kind 22:55:26 -!- kveiwekw has joined. 22:55:31 yeah i do motherfucker 22:55:33 -!- kveiwekw has left (?). 22:55:34 Well, mister troll, send me a picture and I'll see if I can give you some loving 22:55:50 hm, if I pull this lever on the office chair I'm in I do tilt backwards, so I guess that means that I'm almost lying back, thus "getting laid" 22:55:50 :D 22:55:57 lam 22:55:57 e 22:56:10 ehird, me or Slereah? 22:56:16 troll, let's have sex. then we'll -both- lose our virginity! 22:56:17 oh snap 22:56:19 AnMaster: you 22:56:25 ehird, thanks, I prefer those jokes 22:56:30 bad jokes you know 22:56:34 yes. we know. 22:56:43 ehird : Hey, we can share him. 22:56:49 Are you more of a top or a bottom? 22:56:50 no 22:56:51 he's all mine <3 22:56:54 What of you troll? 23:02:02 I would assume trolling would be more "fun" somewhere where people would take it more seriously. Trolling esoteric language enthusiasts about their tastes in programming languages is like trying to annoy a duck by pouring water on it (i.e. you need to do it a whole lot). 23:02:17 heh. 23:02:20 ha 23:02:28 He does not have the dedication or strength of a nigra. 23:02:42 i think Slereah is actually a troll 23:02:42 :d 23:02:44 :D 23:02:52 hm 23:03:09 Well, not here at least. 23:03:18 Sure, I may talk about gay sex. 23:03:26 But only for the eyes of augur. 23:03:29 fizzie, you verified that scientifically? About the duck I mean. 23:03:40 He once drowned a duck. 23:03:53 Slereah, maffia style? 23:03:54 :D 23:04:01 Cement duck 23:04:06 heh 23:04:14 duck punching! 23:04:31 Can a duck duck? 23:04:40 Judofyr: ITYM sex in the city space shuttle 23:05:01 for the hopeless outsiders: http://hackety.org/2007/08/10/myCompleteListOfSubstitutePhrasesForTheActWeNowKnowToBeMonkeypatching.html 23:05:02 Actually I spent a whole lot of time to think of a better simile, with no luck; had to go with the "like water off a duck's back" idiom. 23:05:09 ehird, huh, what is a "city space shuttle"? 23:05:19 AnMaster: I think it parses as ((sex in the city) space shuttle) 23:05:26 XD 23:05:31 ehird, that doesn't make much sense 23:05:42 more like, Attempting To Exercise Just A Fraction Of The Lawlessness And Lack Of Discipline Which We All First Learned From Why The Lucky Stiff 23:05:42 _why doesn't make much sense 23:05:53 ehird, unless "sex in the city" was a name or such. 23:05:58 which afaik it isn't? 23:06:45 hm googling seems to indicate it is a movie or something such, so ok, I guess that parsing would make sense then 23:06:57 still, I think _why is a genius! 23:07:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:07:15 (Curiously in Finnish it's "kuin vesi hanhen selästä", lit. "like water off a geese's back"; I'm not sure why they've used a bit different waterfowl there.) 23:07:51 typography is annoying 23:07:59 * oerjan wonders if this means the same as norwegian "som vann på gåsa" (also goose) 23:08:26 oerjan: Like water off a duck's back; yes, I think it's the same thing. 23:08:34 fizzie, well that exists in Swedish too, except it uses goose instead 23:08:42 "som att hälla vatten på en gås" 23:09:04 The Nordic countries seem all to be very goose-friendly. 23:09:12 what about English? 23:09:20 It's a duck in English. 23:09:20 doesn't something similar exists for there 23:09:37 no, we just have intensive knowledge in how to torture geese, and know that water doesn't work 23:09:59 fizzie, that depends on what it is in Denmark and on Iceland 23:10:02 oerjan, :D 23:10:16 what about Norway? :-( 23:10:25 Judofyr: already mentioned 23:10:26 Judofyr, that is what oerjan said 23:10:26 ... 23:10:37 oh 23:11:01 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:11:07 norway is fake 23:11:10 danish: "som at slå vand på en gås" 23:11:11 :O 23:11:21 ehird: how? 23:11:22 (says google hit) 23:11:25 it doesn't exist 23:11:33 darn you got us 23:11:35 oerjan, ok, then geese is in clear majority even if Icelandic (sp?) use something else 23:12:16 maybe geese were more common here? And ducks more common in UK? 23:12:18 or something such 23:12:24 I guess that could explain it 23:12:34 -!- kar8nga has joined. 23:12:48 we are just a giant petroleum platform in the north sea, with a giant hedge fund 23:13:20 oerjan, wait what, I visted Oslo this summer, looked at Fram and such things... 23:13:24 you mean that was fake? 23:13:30 or not located in Norway? 23:13:31 It's done with mirrors, I guess. 23:13:38 fizzie, really? 23:13:41 and magnets 23:13:53 _always_ magnets 23:13:58 that's our park area, it's inside the platform 23:14:15 fizzie, must be a lot of mirrors then, because I traveled by train from Sweden to Olso, and we seemed to travel for several hours through wilderness 23:14:25 I guess they did it when passing through one of the mirrors 23:14:26 err 23:14:29 one of the tunnels 23:14:54 Yes, then they run the train in a circle and use their anti-gravity thingamajicks to keep you from noticing. 23:15:04 you know, like just a km or 2 on the edge of Sweden, then through a long tunnel, and somehow using mirrors to make it not look like the tunnel was that long 23:15:07 It's the simplest way! 23:15:17 AnMaster: the wilderness is just CGI 23:15:18 fizzie, you still need a tiny strip of land there 23:15:34 oerjan, well it can't be before the first tunnel I think 23:15:50 so I'd say there is a tiny strip of real norway there 23:15:54 no 23:16:00 They do have a "wild goose chase" in English; I'm not sure we have an equivalent one here. 23:16:00 norway -does- -not- -exist- 23:16:11 fizzie, what does it mean? 23:16:15 oerjan, hm 23:16:19 um the train windows are actually plasma screens 23:16:34 oerjan, oh? really? They put them up during the travel then? 23:16:44 or somehow faked the view when inside Sweden? 23:16:56 they're just programmed to show a camera view while in sweden 23:17:04 oerjan, ah! 23:17:07 AnMaster: "a lengthy or useless pursuit or task whose execution requires inordinate resources and circuitous execution" is the wikipediaic definition. 23:17:19 fizzie, heh 23:18:11 And actually the interwebs tell me the Vietnamese water-duck idion is literally "like pouring water on a duck's head", instead of back. Their methods for animal torture are obviously different. 23:19:04 fizzie, link? 23:19:17 fizzie, we don't specify a part in Sweden 23:19:23 we just talk about the duck in generic 23:19:37 AnMaster: At the bottom of http://www.cjvlang.com/Birds/duck4.html 23:19:42 same for that Norwegian phrase oerjan used. 23:20:04 AnMaster: The Finnish variant mentions the back, like the English one. 23:20:15 and the danish doesn't either 23:20:21 right 23:20:29 * oerjan fails at guessing how to find the icelandic equivalent 23:20:40 oerjan, wikipedia? 23:23:55 ah, "að kasta vatni á gæs" 23:25:14 That's not in wiktionary's "Icelandic idioms / similes" lists, but those aren't very long anyway. Sounds goose-ish, anyway. 23:25:40 well i started by translating water and goose with wiktionary 23:25:47 then googled the combination 23:28:48 http://www.ms.is/Islenska/Fernuflug/Fernuflug-II/ordtok/ has it 23:29:21 s/kasta/skvetta/ 23:29:42 skvette is the norwegian verb too 23:30:50 oklosol: feeling particularly bright today? 23:30:53 I shouldn't be too surprised if they had something more common with a vaguely similar meaning; they are such purists. Well, maybe they don't mind idioms so much. 23:31:16 those are all good icelandic words 23:31:34 oerjan, Swedish has skvätta, which is close 23:31:47 (stökkva instead of skvetta was also mentioned) 23:32:49 and yes they are purists 23:34:20 they son't just use -son style names, they use -dóttir too 23:34:27 purists yeah... 23:36:15 moreover, they don't inherit them 23:36:21 indeed! 23:37:14 i've heard/read this weird story about an icelandic woman who moved to swedish but was allowed to keep her -dóttir name 23:37:25 the problem occured when she got a son... 23:37:26 moved to Swedish? 23:37:27 wtf 23:37:31 Moved to Sweden? 23:37:31 *sweden 23:37:35 right 23:37:41 but you can keep your name when you move 23:37:43 that is normal 23:37:55 I can't imagine it not being the case 23:38:00 yes. as i said the problem happened when she got a son. 23:38:14 oh right 23:38:15 I see 23:38:19 oerjan, what happened? 23:38:33 and the government insisted he had to have her surname 23:38:42 oerjan, what happened in the end? 23:39:04 i don't remember, it may be a fake anecdote for all i know 23:39:26 oerjan, it may be real, sounds like usual Swedish gov 23:39:41 incompetent if you want to put it nicely 23:40:15 the nothing is possible unless there is a rule allowing it kind, i assume 23:40:28 ha 23:40:34 oerjan, eh? 23:40:36 AnMaster: can't be more incompetent than the uk 23:40:41 s/the/then/? 23:40:54 ehird, I think around the same level probably 23:41:00 i expect that's global, at least in those countries that _have_ rule by law 23:41:07 AnMaster: almost impossible 23:41:11 do you guys have cctv everywhere? 23:41:56 ehird, no but we have the FRA law and the IPRED law, though those met a storm of protests in media so the gov is finally starting to retreat 23:42:15 ipred? 23:42:21 ah, intellectual property. 23:42:27 yeah 23:42:31 AnMaster: what about a national, required ID card scheme? 23:42:39 ehird, hm? 23:42:42 what do you mean? 23:42:49 AnMaster: a required government-assigned identification card for every citizen 23:42:56 "fascism" is an understatement 23:42:59 ehird, that you have to carry on you!? 23:43:01 AnMaster: yep 23:43:08 the gov is pushing it for 2012 23:43:10 ehird, how the heck would that work for child? 23:43:17 children* 23:43:30 AnMaster: they just tattoo it on, duh 23:43:31 AnMaster: i'm not sure it applies to minors 23:43:38 AnMaster: but, delegated to the parent 23:43:38 I assume 23:43:43 * oerjan ducks 23:44:01 ehird, well no we don't have that, not yet at least 23:44:06 with EU.. who knows 23:44:10 Maybe they could stick an implant in, that'd be the neat. 23:44:13 proposal: the id card is chip-implanted into their brains 23:44:15 fizzie: snap 23:44:23 it allows for easy termination of dissenting citizens! 23:44:38 hm 23:44:54 ehird, you know this sounds like 1984 somehow 23:44:58 those cameras too 23:45:02 Oh, definitely. 23:45:09 It _is_ an instruction manual, right? :-) 23:45:30 AnMaster: we also require ISPs to censor the internet 23:45:55 There is a crazy crank Finnish page about how the current Finnish ID card (which has a chip in it for RSA signatures or some-such, but is in no means obligatory) is a tool of the devil, the mark of the beast. 23:46:16 It's at http://www.varo666siru.net/ and has some English and Swedish content too. 23:46:25 ehird, I think the gov makes our ISPs block child porn sites, optional though, but with a loaded gun pointed at those who disagree 23:46:37 so only optional on the paper 23:46:51 AnMaster: The centralized UK provider that handles the block blocked this page recently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Killer [you might not want to click] 23:47:02 there was a load of hoohah about it recently 23:47:07 "When a person has this chip in them, they can be located in any part of the world and by a press of a button, be activated! This chip is microscopically small; it is of the size of the tip of an ordinary syringe needle." 23:47:11 in that it's not actually illegal 23:47:21 ehird, hm 23:47:24 what is it about then? 23:47:32 AnMaster: the album cover. 23:47:44 ehird, never heard of it, *loads page with tor* 23:47:47 [NSFW, NMS (Not Mind Safe)] 23:48:17 "The Bible says that at some point this ”biochip” will be offered to all people. It is better to die than to receive a mark that makes a human being a robot." 23:48:49 fizzie: where is this chip put? 23:49:47 fizzie, sounds like a mild version of time cube 23:49:53 "Under the skin." And the current chip in the ID card is a "prototype" for it. 23:49:59 oh damn, now I got eh... started... 23:50:17 fizzie: Ah. So it doesn't actually exist. AnMaster: Me? :P 23:50:22 EDUCATED STUPID 23:50:36 ehird: Oh, no, it already exists, it's just not yet forcibly installed in everyone. 23:50:44 "Today at least 6,000 people in Sweden have taken that mark and they are being followed all the time.Their location can be displayed on a TV screen any time." 23:50:51 (I'm not sure what Sweden has to do with this.) 23:50:53 fizzie: I mean, an under-the-skin chip exists? 23:50:59 Government-made? 23:51:15 Yes. It's a CIA project. Or something. 23:51:21 It's a bit confusing, to tell the truth. 23:51:28 Ah. So it doesn't actually exist. 23:51:29 fizzie, how is it related to 9/11? 23:51:39 and ufos? 23:52:03 under-the-skin chips probably exist, for medical uses 23:52:16 oerjan, pacemaker? 23:52:23 "Manipulated by the chip, one person became like a Nazi of former times, a superman bubbling over with zeal. When the stimulus was further slightly increased, everything was over." 23:52:33 that too 23:53:10 Anyway, this text was from a "an abridged version of a 3-hour speech of Dr. Colin Sanders, D. Sc. (Tech), USA"; and that site is collecting all kinds of stuff that says "micro-chip" in it as "evidence" that the Finnish government is planning some dastardly thing like this too. 23:53:29 i love crackpots. 23:53:45 On December 20, 2007, Scorpions played at a concert for the elite of Russia’s security forces in the Kremlin. The concert celebrated the 90th anniversary of the founding of the Cheka - predecessor of the KGB. Members of the audience included President Vladimir Putin. 23:53:51 -- about the band with the censored colour 23:53:55 if you believe literally in Revelation then you'd have to believe something like that 23:54:11 oerjan: if you literally believe in any part of the bible you have to be a crackpot by obligation... 23:54:46 oh there are probably sections that are literally true 23:54:59 maybe not a whole book though 23:55:10 (book of the bible) 23:55:12 oerjan: name one :P 23:55:21 Some parts of that page make me think it's parody, though. (My translation this time) "There are also rumours of so-called blue tooth, that would be used in the EU area [for passport/identification/etc]" which sounds too much like a joke, given... well, you know, bluetooth. 23:55:45 i bet the bears mauling the teenagers who called the guy baldie is true 23:55:48 it's too good not to be 23:55:56 fizzie: that's not much of a stretch for a crackpot 23:56:02 ehird: i didn't say i could say which are true. 23:56:54 * oerjan used that story to make a Jehovah's Witness give up on him once, ihrc 23:57:22 The basic gist seems to be that all kinds of (medical or other) implants make it possible to control (via satellites!!1) you like a robot. 23:58:17 (Gene-tweaked grain is also somehow related.) 23:58:30 i want a jehovah's witness to bother m 23:58:30 e 23:58:37 I'd come out with The Origin of the Species 23:58:43 and ask if I could help them 23:59:18 We used to get them semi-regularly (not more than something like once/year, though) in the university student village. 2009-01-04: 00:00:08 Oh, there are details, too. Motorola is building these chips; the model number is "BT 952000". 00:01:52 do they come with that leap year bug that Zune got from that Motorola spinoff? 00:02:32 BT 952000 --http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/themagazine/vol8/articles/montex.shtml 00:02:38 so, some consistency' 00:03:12 Yes; I didn't know that the corporation called "Lucent" got its name from "LUCifer ENTerprises". 00:03:17 One would think that's not very good PR. 00:03:24 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:03:27 ha 00:06:11 * oerjan now wants to look up dev.* corporation names :D 00:08:22 i suggest staying away from Canada's DEVCO 00:10:35 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie. 00:10:49 Incidentally, have to sleep; do you want me to leave that +t on or what? 00:12:13 No. 00:12:15 Turn it off. :D 00:12:24 -t is nice when you have no trolls. 00:15:28 I'm not that sure that particular topic-sillitude will not come back, but I guess there's not much Real Talk during the "night-time" anyway. 00:15:43 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -t. 00:15:52 Sleepitude, now; g'night. 00:16:51 WE ARE DOOMED! DOOMED, I SAY! 00:21:53 I just made a great misreading 00:21:57 "with enough bugs, all eyes are shallow" 00:22:23 THEY ARE EATING OUR EYES! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 00:29:09 -!- bloreg has quit. 00:29:09 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 00:29:17 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:31:49 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 00:34:11 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 00:36:33 * ehird puts a black background on everythin before his eyes cave in 00:38:03 BLACK IS THE (NON-)COLOR OF EVIL 00:39:25 dear apple: i would like a free leopard upgrade so that I don't get ugly white window mesh clashing with my ultimat blakk 00:42:00 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:47:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:08:36 ehird, eh? 01:08:43 ehird, can't you change theme in OS X? 01:08:51 Not the window chrome, no. 01:08:57 how strange 01:08:59 Didn't you know that Apple is always right? :-P 01:09:08 ehird, you just said they weren't? 01:09:17 Steve Jobs would disapprove of your sacrelige of his perfect design. 01:09:21 You uncouth savage. :D 01:10:03 NEWS: Today ehird was making fun of Apple. Read more on page 7, 9, 12-13 and 17 01:10:06 -!- Vendan has joined. 01:10:29 I'm sure I've done that before :| 01:10:49 no you complained when I was doing it! 01:11:38 I wonder if Apple stopped disobeying their own HIG in 10.5. 01:11:40 ehird, anyway, iirc you can change theme even on windows xp 01:11:46 HIG? 01:11:52 HIGH? 01:11:57 AnMaster: Human Interface Guidlines 01:11:59 ah 01:12:01 *Guidelines 01:12:04 if you added an H 01:12:09 it would explain a lot 01:12:11 :-P 01:12:21 like, you know, imac 01:12:29 They sa(y|id) metal chrome should be used only for apps that are similar to real-world devices 01:12:37 but I don't think Safari, a web browser, fits that definition. 01:12:47 maybe it's imitating a refridgerated-mounted browser 2000 01:12:48 ehird, oh? iirc finder had the metal look in 10.4 01:12:53 yeah, it did 01:12:56 and 01:13:03 what on earth is it in real world? 01:13:10 Uh. A filing cabinet? XD 01:13:16 about the only time where apple listens to that guideline is with calculator. 01:13:20 Which looks like ar eal calculator at a glance. 01:13:33 ehird, in metal chrome? 01:13:34 well 01:13:39 their graph calc doesn't iirc 01:13:45 I mean Calculator.app. 01:13:53 ehird, ok, maybe they are separate 01:13:56 Yes. 01:13:59 I don't use mac a lot 01:14:02 as you probably know 01:14:03 One is a graphing calculator, one is a regular calculator :P 01:14:12 ehird, well I have no regular calc 01:14:15 Although Grapher.app is metal in 10.4, too... 01:14:20 I only have a graphing one 01:14:24 and it is black plastic 01:14:38 scratched black plastic 01:14:39 I want a TI-83 & an HP. Because that's like using both vi and emacs. 01:14:43 with worn out keys 01:14:50 ehird, this is a TI-83+ 01:15:31 ehird, had to replace the batteries once the in the ~6 years or so that I had it 01:15:43 maybe 5 years 01:15:43 not sure 01:16:35 doesn't use much power at all since those are 4 AAA 01:17:29 * ehird examines how hard it'd be to rescheme cgit to fit with the rest of his design 01:17:40 cgit? 01:17:49 http://hjemli.net/git/cgit/about/ 01:18:03 hey 01:18:06 that is a webinterface 01:18:07 ... 01:18:14 ... yes, yes it is. 01:18:17 ... And? 01:18:24 ehird, do you re-scheme google? 01:18:33 /facepalm. 01:18:36 It's a piece of software. 01:18:38 That you install on your server. 01:18:40 To view repositories. 01:18:41 true 01:18:42 On your server. 01:18:44 yes 01:18:45 I know 01:18:50 but you talked about desktop apps 01:18:53 just a few seconds ago 01:19:01 I know. It was a seperate musing. 01:19:02 I thought you planned to use greasemonkey or something 01:19:06 Ah. 01:19:10 No. 01:19:16 hey that would be fun 01:19:23 change the layout of every page you visit 01:19:29 to match your own style 01:19:29 http://userstyles.org/ 01:19:35 The interwebs are way ahead of you, mon. 01:19:41 hah 01:19:48 * AnMaster doesn't use greasemonkey himself 01:19:53 hello. 01:20:00 GreaseMonkey, hah not you 01:20:04 GreaseMonkey: If you don't want to be pinged, stop infringing on intellectual property. :P 01:20:13 ehird, err maybe trademark 01:20:18 I was being sarcastic. 01:20:23 I would assume greasemonkey is GPL 01:21:07 hmm. making cgit fit into a 33em (base = 16px) layout could be hard. 01:21:11 Solution: expand the width for those pages. 01:21:15 Crazy! 01:21:21 a grease monkey is also a mechanic. 01:21:27 GreaseMonkey: Quite. 01:21:35 It is also a monkey. That is greasy. 01:21:45 anyways, back to what i was doing (teaching starnes how to rickroll on a keyboard) 01:21:52 GreaseMonkey, ouch 01:21:53 how 01:21:54 evil 01:22:03 that is just too evil 01:22:11 ha 01:22:15 "I learned a song yesterday, come see!" 01:22:20 "Dun dan dun dun dan dun-dun-dun" 01:22:21 AnMaster: there's more horrible songs than that 01:22:26 "Dun dun dun dun dun, dun-dah-dah-dah!" 01:22:35 GbMaj7, Ab, Fm, Bbm 01:23:21 * ehird likes how his irc bouncer + client handle logging the whole of #wikipedia and playing it back immediately on reconnect with only a few seconds of lag 01:24:32 also, I propose this become the next rick roll: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nuyY9WjNpgs 01:24:54 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 01:30:54 * oerjan didn't notice the # on wikipedia first, and was sorta skeptic 01:32:13 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:45:48 oerjan: ? 01:45:50 oh 01:45:50 lol 02:04:34 GbMaj7, Ab, Fm, Bbm <-- chords? 02:04:37 not melody 02:04:47 AnMaster: yes. 02:04:50 chords. 02:04:50 GbM7 isn't much of a note. 02:05:05 kerlo, true 02:05:06 it's a series of tubes notes! 02:05:20 GreaseMonkey, so what about the actual melody? 02:05:23 does it have one? 02:05:25 or? 02:05:26 * kerlo thinks, "G flat? What kind of crazy key is this?" 02:05:40 GbM7 isn't much of a note. <-- several 02:05:59 AnMaster: it does, but chords are still good 02:06:23 also, the melody is covered by a different instrument, i think 02:06:28 maybe several 02:06:30 Let's see. A minor, five fifths down... 02:06:52 That's B flat minor, all right. 02:07:52 kerlo, I was trying to figure out the chord too 02:07:58 The key, I mean. 02:08:27 no I fail at this time of the night 02:08:31 Now someone quickly get me a program or an applet or something that can play me those chords. I don't want to wake anyone up with the piano and I'm not very good at sonification. 02:08:32 what are the keys of GbMaj7 02:08:49 kerlo, well I connected my headset to my synth 02:08:57 err keyboard/synth 02:09:01 Gb, Bb, Db, F. 02:09:06 though it probably uses samples 02:09:09 ah right 02:10:02 hm the keyboard claims that is Ebm(add9) 02:10:04 strange 02:10:06 Yell if you see a Cb or an Fb in any of these. 02:10:09 too tried to figure that out 02:10:22 kerlo, ? 02:10:30 Ebm(add9)? It doesn't even *have* an Eb, does it? 02:10:38 kerlo, no clue 02:11:02 * AnMaster pulls the power plug and hopes it helps to reset it 02:11:31 Ebm(add9) is Eb, Gb, Bb, F. 02:11:57 Gb, Bb, Db? 02:12:17 ok my fault, I hit the wrong key -_- 02:12:31 ok... 02:12:40 F#M7? 02:13:00 kerlo, does that match better? :P 02:13:15 well it would if reversed 02:13:17 Ab is Ab, C, Eb; Fm is F, Ab, C; Bbm is Bb, Db, F. 02:13:37 F#M7 is enharmonic to GbM7. 02:13:45 true 02:13:58 so yes it makes sense 02:14:00 I loathe treating enharmonics as the same, but only a little. 02:14:39 kerlo, depends on which way you take it 02:25:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:36:03 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:19:48 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:29:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 05:48:34 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:57:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:31 lol. my dream just reminded me i need to renew my library books xD 08:01:42 also i slept like 13 hours 08:01:44 so cool. 08:05:05 ais523: also, yay for a client that stores topic history <<< yeah i wish mine did, i mean when someone changes the topic, there's essentially no way to get the old one back. 08:09:19 ehird: freenode don't do that kind of thing. <<< freenode k-lined my friend, many times. 08:14:53 ehird: ais523: I've ran clonebots in #esoteric-blah for an okoplay. | ehird: i had another variation | ehird: with like 30 <<< dear fuck i wanna see 08:21:36 hey oklo 08:33:19 AnMaster: you've never heard about sex in the city? god i envy your style 08:37:30 oerjan: oklosol: feeling particularly bright today? <<< actually, yes. well. not the day you asked, but now. 08:39:37 AnMaster: s/the/then/? <<< no, parses as "oerjan: the (nothing is possible unless there is a rule allowing it) kind, i assume" 08:42:04 01:46… ehird: AnMaster: The centralized UK provider that handles the block blocked this page recently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Killer [you might not want to click] <<< i still think blocking a page containing child porn as an album cover is not as bad as blocking a thousand pages of normal porn 08:42:19 (we looked through the whole finnish list, 5 pages of cp, rest was just porn.) 08:42:39 (also the 5 needed a few links forward, nothing was cp to begin with) 08:52:06 AnMaster: GreaseMonkey, so what about the actual melody? <<< 02307..7..5.....b02b5..5..3..20.02303..5..2..0b...b.5...3....... repeat iirc 08:53:35 kerlo: Ebm(add9)? It doesn't even *have* an Eb, does it? <<< it has all but it. 08:54:03 ebadd9 just drops gb a third down 08:54:14 also why am i commenting this part, you're obviously noobs :-) 08:54:41 nice. could do that without anyone commenting back 08:55:02 and took only an hour, should really get back to only taking a glance at the logs. 09:02:13 -!- oklosol has changed nick to oklopol. 09:04:02 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:29:11 -!- tyrelle has joined. 09:29:15 hello 09:35:24 i'm here 09:35:48 oh 09:35:53 psygnisfive: sorry i missed you 09:35:55 i mean 09:35:56 of course 09:36:02 that i missed your comment, didn't see it 09:40:02 its ok 09:40:08 and i know you missed me darling dont worry 09:40:09 im here now 09:40:15 * psygnisfive coddles oklopol 09:40:19 also, im off to bed. :P 09:40:52 again? 09:40:57 have a fun 09:41:05 what do you mean again? 09:41:11 its 4:40 am :P 09:41:17 any math students 09:41:17 night <3 09:41:25 you were going to sleep when i was 09:41:27 and i just woke up 09:41:32 and you're going to sleep again. 09:41:51 tyrelle: i've had two courses! 09:47:44 -!- Corun has joined. 09:49:40 think i gotta go. cya 09:49:45 -> 09:51:31 oh brother 09:51:40 #lisp has some opinionated ops 10:11:27 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 11:47:26 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 12:26:40 -!- judotest has joined. 12:29:50 :P 12:32:46 woot 12:32:53 was that me? :S 12:32:57 -!- judotest has changed nick to Judofyr. 12:33:30 that's why the smilie didn't show up in MSN :P 12:46:29 -!- Corun has joined. 12:48:42 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:49:04 -!- kar8nga has joined. 12:51:11 -!- jix has joined. 12:53:18 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 13:30:31 -!- moozilla has joined. 13:32:42 -!- metazilla has joined. 13:32:48 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:32:52 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 13:45:20 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:45:37 -!- Judofyr has joined. 13:55:04 -!- metazilla has joined. 13:55:04 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:55:14 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 13:55:52 -!- jix has joined. 13:57:42 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:57:45 -!- metazilla has joined. 14:06:23 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 14:10:18 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:10:23 -!- moozilla has joined. 14:12:57 -!- metazilla has joined. 14:12:57 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:13:05 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 14:22:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:24:35 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:24:36 * ais523 wonders how the trolling went yesterday 14:24:36 hmm... I wonder if that's interesting enough to actually open up logs to read 14:27:44 -!- metazilla has joined. 14:27:44 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:27:54 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 14:29:29 Trolling esoteric language enthusiasts about their tastes in programming languages is like trying to annoy a duck by pouring water on it 14:29:34 so true 14:30:20 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:30:23 -!- moozilla has joined. 14:38:08 I should read the logs more often 14:47:50 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:47:50 -!- moozilla has joined. 14:47:57 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 14:50:40 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:22:06 ehird will like this quote: "MySQL is a very fast database because it takes out the parts of a database that make it a database." 15:22:19 which explains why lots of people don't like it, and also why lots of people use it 15:42:19 -!- ehird has left (?). 15:42:24 -!- ehird has joined. 15:42:26 -!- ehird has left (?). 15:42:29 -!- ehird has joined. 15:43:16 graph serialization for the fecking win 15:43:26 graph serialization for the fecking win 15:43:28 hi ehird 15:43:40 hai 15:44:11 00:14:53 ehird: ais523: I've ran clonebots in #esoteric-blah for an okoplay. | ehird: i had another variation | ehird: with like 30 <<< dear fuck i wanna see 15:44:13 im sure i showed you 15:45:23 also, our troll was awesomely bad. 15:57:19 ehird: i read the logs. 15:57:26 and yes, you probably showed me, i just don't remembe 15:57:27 oklopol: wat 15:57:27 yes, I read the logs too 15:57:28 r 15:57:57 ehird: well i thought you were telling about the troll from last night 15:58:04 *telling me 15:58:31 no 15:58:37 was replying to ais523's logmsg 15:59:06 what do you think of the quote about MySQL/ 16:00:10 15:42 graph serialization for the fecking win 16:00:12 that was my reply 16:00:18 oh, I didn't realise 16:00:43 actually, viewing MySQL as not a database, but still useful for certain tasks, is probably best 16:00:50 ehird: yes, i know, you told that with your wat. 16:00:52 even if it isn't a database, it seems to have found itself a niche 16:01:09 what does mysql take out? 16:01:17 oklopol: just about everything 16:01:22 until recently, it had no transactions 16:01:44 oklopol: it's sort of the C of databases, it lets you do stupid and nonsensical things without complaining, and most high-level features have to be written by hand 16:01:47 transactions are one of the crucial things about irl databases that are not a part of databases as such 16:01:58 oklopol: er yes they are 16:01:59 ACID 16:02:05 of course, this means it's very fast 16:02:17 i don't actually think mysql did any of ACID until recently 16:02:42 they started a project recently, Drizzle, which aims to.. make it even less of a database, for the "web 2.0" crowd 16:02:45 i'm wondering what it'll have left 16:03:01 ehird: they aren't an inherent part of databases. 16:03:05 no. 16:03:17 cool, what does it do? 16:03:17 I actually think they're onto something here 16:03:17 printf("hello world\n")? 16:03:19 ais523: barely anything 16:03:20 never. 16:03:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drizzle_(database_server) 16:03:31 hmm... this morning I was thinking about an esolang idea I haven't thought about in ages, and realised I hadn't told you lot about it 16:03:41 i bet it ends up as PERSISTENT MEMCACHED 16:03:50 basically, it's an attempt to create a programming language which is as computationally powerful as possible without being TC 16:04:02 the highest "named" class in common use seems to be linear bounded automaton 16:04:09 so I thought I'd make an Ackermann-function-bounded automaton 16:04:19 i've always thought that most real world programming need not use a turing complete language 16:04:31 and that the static-verification gains you could get from using a sub-TC language 16:04:34 would be highly useful 16:04:35 Actually, none of them do 16:04:44 Slereah: they do, just the interps are buggy 16:04:44 Slereah: they use TC languages 16:04:46 just not on TC machines 16:04:50 Yes, but they don't need to 16:05:00 Because the languages can't be use to their fullest 16:05:07 Slereah: ok, lower than "TC bar memory storage" 16:05:08 happy now 16:05:08 incidentally, I was also wondering about whether it was possible to actually get a true-TC interp in the real universe 16:05:14 ais523: uh, no. 16:05:17 I think you need the universe to not expand 16:05:20 and unlimited energy 16:05:23 ehird: i mean, i do agree transactions are a crucial part of a real database system, because you need it, in practise; i'm just you could just have the database not have any errors or synchronization problems, and get by without transactions. 16:05:27 but apart from that there are no obvious obstacles 16:05:27 you need it to expand to grow the tape 16:05:32 ... 16:05:32 i'm just 16:05:35 *i'm just saying 16:05:35 also, um 16:05:36 entropy? 16:05:38 ehird: having it infinitely large to begin with 16:05:45 and free-energy, I meant 16:05:47 ais523: that's Impossible, though 16:05:50 which is sort of the opposite of entropy 16:05:58 ehird: the universe is only finitely large because it's expanding 16:06:00 Entropy isn't really a law 16:06:05 the expansion of the universe causes it to get smaller 16:06:13 ... wait, what? 16:06:14 _smaller_? 16:06:15 But you're screwed anyway on infinite time 16:06:18 which is counterintuitive, but so is most of physics 16:06:23 i'm physics-retarded, I htink 16:06:31 ais523 : What are you talking about 16:06:32 ehird: limechat is awesome! thanks for the tip :-) 16:06:36 Judofyr: yw :) 16:06:36 basically, the expansion is homogenous, so the speed at which a particular point is receding depends on its distance from you 16:06:43 the further away it is, the faster it recedes 16:06:55 So? 16:07:00 if a point is so far away it's moving away faster than the speed of light, it's technically outside the universe 16:07:03 That makes it bigger, not smaller :o 16:07:05 that's how the boundary of the universe is defined 16:07:06 i still can't think how a universe expanding gets smaller. 16:07:09 that makes no sense. 16:07:22 I think you mean "visible universe" 16:07:28 yes 16:07:29 Which is irrelevant to the discussion 16:07:35 and no, not at all 16:07:35 Slereah: no. 16:07:37 Also the visible universe gets larger also 16:07:49 clearly you can't use data outside the visible universe for calculation 16:07:56 i'm with ais523 on this one 16:08:09 Yes, if you stay on earth 16:08:20 Slereah: well, technically, but everything else expands at the same rate too, so it gets smaller compared to all the objects inside it 16:08:21 If you use a TC machine, it will need to move to read the data anyway 16:08:25 So its horizon will move 16:08:35 Slereah: its horizon always moves inwards 16:08:38 It doesn't get smaller, it gets emptier. 16:08:47 you can't move the horizon outwards except by moving faster than the speed of light, or using time travel 16:08:52 and both are believed impossible 16:09:03 (not to mention time travel gives you computational classes above TC) 16:09:04 What are you talking about. 16:09:14 Just moving will move your horizon 16:09:29 Slereah: yes, but the horizon moves inwards at the speed of light 16:09:29 hmm. 16:09:33 so we're just lucky it's so far away 16:09:41 the horizon's getting smaller, all the time 16:09:48 at least, if the universe keeps expanding 16:09:49 *larger 16:09:53 *smaller 16:10:02 Define "smaller" 16:10:09 Slereah: less distance to it 16:10:19 I'm afraid I must disagree then 16:10:19 and so a smaller surface area, because it's spherical 16:10:35 you may be thinking of it getting /older/ over time 16:10:36 "Programming language authors image gallery" <-- I thought this was a sentient language that authored a web gallery script... 16:10:57 The horizon increases in size just with time. 16:11:16 I'm not sure if it also increases with expansion, but it also might 16:11:31 does anyone want to write up a well-worded and thought-provoking seed to a Usenet flamewar, on this? 16:11:34 so we can see who's right? 16:11:35 (Doing the speed of light + enlarged metric isn't easy to do in your head) 16:12:01 Slereah: well technically not, say the universe consisted of cells of some size that was constantly getting bigger 16:12:08 and it grew faster than light would let us see 16:12:21 ehird: as for Drizzle, they're taking out all the features that you don't technically have to use in a MySQL database AFAICT 16:12:27 they seem to be making some form of tarpit 16:12:34 i still love this http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/ 16:12:34 so once in a while, even though we're seeing farther and farther, the cell size would let us see less and less cells 16:12:39 e.g. you don't actually need prepared statements, you can just send the statement each time 16:12:57 oklopol : Except the universe doesn't do that. 16:12:58 i mean i don't know or care whether this is what actually happens, i'm just saying that's what i though ais523 meant. 16:13:03 Slereah: i don't care. 16:13:03 You see more cells, not bigger cells. 16:13:06 yes, that is what I meant 16:13:22 and no, expansion of the universe doesn't create more cells, at least not in the popular theories 16:13:26 Slereah: explain to ais523, not me. 16:13:28 I think steady-state theory has it doing that 16:13:43 What does "more cells" mean anyway. 16:13:53 It's continuous in general relativity 16:13:57 well, the cells are just a way of thinking about it, given they're infinitely small 16:14:02 do you know about the delta function? 16:14:09 Slereah: planck's constant or something like that getting bigger? 16:14:09 Yes, yes I do. 16:14:17 ugh 16:14:20 -14 C outside 16:14:22 way too cold 16:14:24 well, how do you know it integrates to 1, given that it's 0 everywhere and infinity at one point 16:14:27 oklopol : Not proved in any way 16:14:34 AnMaster: much colder here. 16:14:34 AnMaster: you've never heard about sex in the city? god i envy your style <-- my style? 16:14:43 the cell-size thing is sort of like that 16:14:46 Slereah: i'm sure. 16:14:48 there are no actual cells, and they're infinitely small 16:14:51 yet they're getting bigger 16:15:11 Slereah: don't respond to that "i'm sure", it was an accidental message :) 16:15:13 you know who we need in here? 16:15:16 chris pressey 16:15:23 why, does he know about this sort of thing? 16:15:29 no 16:15:32 or just because it would be great to have such a prominent esolanger? 16:15:35 yep :P 16:15:42 AnMaster: GreaseMonkey, so what about the actual melody? <<< 02307..7..5.....b02b5..5..3..20.02303..5..2..0b...b.5...3....... repeat iirc <-- what on earth is that notation? 16:15:51 AnMaster: being completely ignorant about popular culture 16:15:54 i mean, he made befunge 16:15:57 what more do you want? 16:15:58 AnMaster: glad you asked 16:16:06 ehird: Xigxag? 16:16:13 yes, yes, I know 16:16:15 but he made befunge :P 16:16:22 oklopol, sure, I don't care about popular culture 16:16:22 actually, I think AnMaster would scare him away 16:16:25 and lots of others, too 16:16:30 I don't even HAVE a tv since a few months 16:16:33 since I never used it anyway 16:16:42 AnMaster: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28694 16:16:43 what i use for melodies, a subset that explains that little melody, "z-a0-9A-Z" are notes, from left to right, "."'s are pauses 16:16:47 AnMaster: wow, you sound just like me 16:16:50 everything is ...equilong 16:16:55 if I want to watch the news of the public service TV I can just go to their website 16:17:03 AnMaster: i haven't watched tv in years 16:17:03 I think UK users can do the same for BBC 16:17:15 oklopol: I'd guessed hexadecimal with . to continue notes 16:17:18 so I was almost right 16:17:19 and i don't care about *physics*, let alone pop culture 16:17:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:17:36 and still i know what sitc is 16:17:39 and i don't care about *physics*, let alone pop culture 16:17:40 what i use for melodies, a subset that explains that little melody, "z-a0-9A-Z" are notes, from left to right, "."'s are pauses <-- left to right of what? 16:17:43 and took only an hour, should really get back to only taking a glance at the logs. 16:17:47 AnMaster: yes 16:17:48 that may be for the best. 16:17:49 where do you begin? 16:17:51 I mean 16:17:52 z is the lowest 16:17:55 Z is the highest 16:17:57 oklopol: that has to be one of my favourite lines of yours ever 16:17:57 oklopol, on what instrument? 16:18:00 it sums you up so well 16:18:06 AnMaster: singing 16:18:10 but that's the main melody 16:18:15 who cares what the instrument is 16:18:33 i don't believe in existence 16:18:35 oh fuc--------- 16:18:44 caring about instruments is for people who don't understand music, you know, the kind of people who like music that "sounds good" 16:18:52 -!- Epic_Fail_Guy has joined. 16:18:53 ais523 : It's not, it's just defined like that, not by infinity. 16:18:55 :D 16:19:14 Was I saying. 16:19:15 ais523: heh, thanks, i liked that line too 16:19:19 ehird: don't put descartes before the horse 16:19:20 oklopol, well 1) I can't sing, but I can play the piano a bit 2) If I could sing I would be really low bass I think 16:19:28 Epic_Fail_Guy: if you're talking about the delta function like that, you're missing its essential esoness 16:19:29 * AnMaster has a really low voice 16:19:42 oerjan: ugh 16:19:49 AnMaster should have a Standard Context pack of lines which he just links to so he doesn't have to say the same things 16:19:51 every five seconds 16:19:54 did you have that pun prepared? 16:20:13 ehird, what did I repeat? 16:20:22 AnMaster: i know all that, like ehird pointed out. my point is, just use any instrument 16:20:27 it's the same melody no matter what you use 16:20:37 * AnMaster has a really low voice <-- one of your standard lines 16:20:46 along with "i recommend emacs" 16:20:46 * AnMaster greps to check 16:20:46 oklopol: in some cases the instruments can affect the harmony 16:20:56 if it's correct, i just woke up and didn't really try playing it in my head to check it or anything. 16:20:59 such as an organ with a 3/7 stop, or one of the other silly ones 16:21:21 ais523: no, but it was recycled of course 16:21:28 ais523: umm. what do you mean? 16:21:30 er that may mean yes 16:21:37 ehird, I said it just once the last 3 months, and that was the instance I said just now 16:21:38 oklopol: gggggggggggggggggggggggg 16:21:41 I rotate logs every 3 months 16:22:05 wait, sorry, cleaning my keyboard 16:22:05 oklopol: I meant, organs have 'stops' which let you automatically add harmony 16:22:05 it's alright if organs have a 3/7 stop, unless of course it's the heart 16:22:12 a 3/7 stop will add a note whose frequency is 3/7 higher than the one you play 16:22:17 and sorry about that. 16:22:18 as a chord with it 16:22:30 it's one of the silly ones, most of the stops are at frequencies which actually correspond to chords 16:22:36 or at least notes 16:23:11 ais523: right. i didn't know it does that 16:23:20 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 16:23:27 gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg 16:23:31 ugh, my g key is still dirty 16:23:36 anyone here know how to clean keyboards? 16:23:45 -!- jix has joined. 16:23:51 ais523: i thought you were grinning widely 16:23:58 ais523: use water :P 16:24:08 * oerjan swats ehird -----### 16:24:10 anyway, something played with an instrument will always just be an approximation of the pure sine/square wave melody 16:24:12 not in a position to do that easily right now 16:24:16 although I may try when I get home 16:24:25 oklopol: well, yes 16:24:30 if you have a 3/7 stop there, it will be closer to being an approximation of having that higher note there. 16:24:31 although square waves aren't exactly pure 16:24:34 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 16:24:34 ais523: take the key out and figure something out 16:24:35 >:| 16:24:37 well no, they're not 16:24:54 ehird: I've never tried to remove a keycap from this laptop, I have no idea how securely or not they're glued on 16:24:59 and I don't want to break it 16:25:00 oh, a laptop 16:25:08 I know they just come off on desktops, not sure about laptops though 16:25:16 ais523: well, it'll almost certainly come off OK 16:25:18 but it might be a bit tricky 16:25:27 oklopol: actually, organs are pretty similar to additive synthesizers 16:25:33 ofc they don't manage perfect sine waves to add together 16:25:44 but you get to add together a lot of organ-waves to create the timbre you want 16:25:44 my organs synthesize things, then add them 16:26:06 Hm 16:26:09 Organ wave. 16:26:13 (It's also not a function) 16:26:17 (So there) 16:27:17 organ waves are all in the blood 16:27:19 ais523: i don't like timbres. i'm more of a theoretical musician, so i prefer keeping it all pure and ...sinous? yes, that must be it. 16:27:35 who wants to help me write a Magenta compiler? 16:27:36 yes, I know about the curse :-P 16:27:57 oklopol: sinusoidal is the real word, but I prefer yours 16:28:06 i am already cursed. i wouldn't want to add to it. 16:28:07 and no, I don't want to help 16:28:26 mostly because if you succeed, you'll break the curse, then Magenta won't be so interesting to talk about 16:28:39 in a way, I'd prefer you to fail so we can all have a laugh about it and talk about how Magenta is truly cursed 16:28:49 but if I want you to fail, then I shouldn't really work on the project, that wouldn't work out well 16:28:51 sine -> sinusoidal? does sine come from a longer word i don't know or whazz thaddabout? 16:29:01 well sinusoid prolly 16:29:09 English makes no sense, but it might be fun to look up 16:29:30 oklopol: sine <- sinus, latin 16:29:38 ais523: i think it's interesting :P 16:29:46 adding -oid to that is probably not very classical 16:29:50 oerjan: and what's this oidal subbic?= 16:29:52 hmm... Wiktionary doesn't know, but apparently "sinusoidal" is "sinimuotoinen" in Finnish 16:29:52 ... 16:29:55 *suffix. 16:29:58 and that's the only translation given 16:30:19 sinimuotoinen = of sinusoidal form 16:30:26 hmm... an ellipsoid is a 3D shape which corresponds to what an ellipse is in 2D 16:30:30 lol 16:31:04 -oid is a greek suffix i think, put on things to make family names in biology. like hominoid 16:31:11 well. "of sine form", we don't want recursive translations 16:31:25 ais523, hm what is a 3/7 stop on an organ? I have no clue how organs work apart from blowing air through pipes 16:31:25 oh it may be -o + ides 16:31:36 the latter meaning offspring 16:31:46 * oerjan should check 16:32:05 ais523: well yes, i know what oid *means*, i just meant what's it doing there 16:32:07 AnMaster: organs are so complicated because they have one pipe for each stop/note combination, more or less 16:32:19 hmm. i didn't really ask it that way. 16:32:21 ais523, I thought it was one pipe / note? 16:32:23 -!- Slereah has quit (Connection timed out). 16:32:24 and all the stops basically multiply or divide the frequency of a note by a given value 16:32:24 also, what is a stop 16:32:31 ais523, huh 16:32:35 strange 16:32:37 stops you can either turn on or off, they're like booleans 16:32:48 and when you play a note, you get the sound of that note for each stop that's on 16:32:55 AnMaster: stops flow of air, presumably 16:33:01 normally organs have multiple keyboards, and stops can be on or off for individual keywords 16:33:02 hm reminds me of the university organ in Discworld, with "silly fam animal sounds" 16:33:05 *keyboards 16:33:06 farm* 16:33:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-oid 16:33:14 and I think that's the etymology 16:33:40 it goes all the way from 1/16 stops which are so low that you can't actually hear them, just annoy the Headmaster because for some reason the pipes come out directly behind his chair 16:33:44 err. oerjan: what does sinus mean? 16:33:48 to stops with numbers like 4 16:33:53 i mean i thought it meant what "oid" meant 16:33:54 AnMaster: s/fam/farm/ ? 16:33:54 ais523, hm I see, I thought the multi-keyboard thing was due to having such a large range 16:34:01 oerjan, farm* 16:34:03 which is why i didn't understand why the suffix 16:34:22 oklopol: "bukt" although it is a mistranslation from arabic iirc 16:34:28 oklopol: sinuses are the parts of the human body which connect the nose to the back of the mouth, IIRC 16:34:32 or possibly to the ears 16:34:34 oh. 16:34:38 * oerjan doesn't remember the english word 16:34:42 but I think that's irrelevant, at least I hope it is 16:34:55 ohhhhh 16:35:10 ais523, you could hear 1/16 for the notes at the upper end of the range 16:35:13 lol i thought -oid meant like "ball" :D 16:35:31 at least I think so 16:35:32 i've probably reverse-engineered it from ellipsoid 16:35:54 makes things more clear. 16:35:59 also explains monoids and the like 16:35:59 :D 16:36:05 i've always wanted a language that can jump through the calls tack 16:36:06 so "like a sine", in this case 16:36:16 ais523, also do you know what the similarity is between organs and MRI scanners? 16:36:17 ;P 16:36:25 AnMaster: is this an attempt to make a pun? 16:36:28 ais523, yes 16:36:31 if so, I utterly fail to get it 16:36:34 or maybe no 16:36:35 not pun 16:36:37 joke yes 16:36:37 also "asteroid" could have a ball etymology 16:36:39 but not pun 16:36:43 oklopol: oh, "bay" in english 16:36:45 ais523, "neither is portable" 16:36:58 oerjan: bay? you mean sinus? 16:37:06 oh 16:37:11 ais523 already explained. 16:37:16 according to Wiktionary, the Latin word "sinus" has loads of meanings 16:37:19 all of which seem to be irrelevant 16:37:19 yes. but the use for trigonometric sines is a mistranslation from arabic 16:37:30 a(x) { 16:37:30 x = x + 1; 16:37:32 A: return x; 16:37:33 } 16:37:34 ok, that would explain a lot 16:37:34 ais523: the "See also: sine" at the bottom 16:37:36 b(x) { 16:37:38 x = x - 1; 16:37:39 goto A; 16:37:41 } 16:37:44 guess what b(3) returns 16:37:48 also i've known what sinuses are like forever 16:37:48 um 16:37:50 ehird: 2? 16:37:53 ais523: yep 16:38:01 ais523, what is the thing about bays and sin() that you are discussing 16:38:05 why the fuck did i ask. 16:38:05 in a, "x" is now a reference to the first local var 16:38:07 I'm unable to figure out what the topic is 16:38:13 ehird: ick_ec can do that 16:38:13 and b has a var in the same position 16:38:15 almost 16:38:16 so it ends up accessing that 16:38:19 and returning it 16:38:36 basically, i'm trying to make a language where you can goto/comefrom ----anywhere----- 16:38:47 even in in while () 16:38:52 oklopol: don't worry, people on IRC are there to help when you're too lazy to do your own remembering 16:38:57 I know it helps me when I'm in that state 16:38:59 ehird, cool 16:38:59 which is quite often 16:39:11 ehird: well, famously asm works like that 16:39:22 well i just had 6 hours of band training 16:39:23 as can INTERCAL, fwiw 16:39:27 that was kinda tiring. 16:39:28 -!- Epic_Fail_Guy has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:39:41 oklopol: I'm not criticising you, it happens to everyone 16:39:42 well of course asm works like that 16:39:45 just most people don't admit it 16:40:08 well yes, but i'm very insecure about my intelligence. 16:40:13 hmm 16:40:20 not insecure... blargh. 16:40:38 * oklopol bangs head to wall 16:40:44 But how many of us actually run an operating system that Richard Stallman would consider free? 16:40:53 a(x) { 16:40:53 while (A: (x -= 1) > 0) { 16:40:54 printf("hello world\n"); 16:40:56 } 16:40:58 } 16:40:58 oh dear, someone mod the article flamebait again 16:41:00 b(x) { 16:41:01 goto B; 16:41:04 comefrom A; 16:41:06 printf("x = %i\n", x); 16:41:08 B: a(x); 16:41:09 } 16:41:11 discuss(ting) 16:41:18 and yes, that -actually works- 16:41:28 ehird: would the comefrom only happen if you called B, not A directly? 16:41:38 also, what's the precedence of label vs. > 16:41:38 ais523: i think so, yes 16:41:40 ais523, how many gNewSense users are there? 16:41:46 also, label is high precedence 16:41:47 and how many Hurd users are there? 16:41:50 so it's A: (...) 16:41:53 add them toegether 16:41:53 AnMaster: I don't know, but I'd guess less than use Ubuntu 16:41:56 together* 16:42:00 haha, "dynamic comefrom scope" 16:42:06 oklopol: yes 16:42:10 ais523, well that is the answer to But how many of us actually run an operating system that Richard Stallman would consider free? 16:42:16 AnMaster: latin "sinus" means "bay" 16:42:29 i like how you have to do the goto B; thing so that you never land on it directly 16:42:30 AnMaster: I was commenting more on the fact that Slashdot are trying to inspire debate about a contentious topic, than the actual question 16:42:36 hmm 16:42:38 ehird: please use that term in the spec like it's a standard term, not explaining further. 16:42:39 I should have no return 16:42:44 ehird: what happens if you hit a comefrom directly? Nothing, like in INTERCAL? 16:42:48 just a way to get a reference to the label of the caller 16:42:50 to go to it 16:42:55 also, "pocket", "curve", or "bosom", says wp 16:42:56 and a way to assign to the right variable in the caller 16:43:00 also, gerund comefroms plz 16:43:02 ais523: hmm 16:43:11 i like how you have to do the goto B; thing so that you never land on it directly 16:43:12 hm 16:43:19 ais523: hitting {comefrom A;} directly goes to A 16:43:20 just an idea... 16:43:22 comefrom +; 16:43:25 so that the rest runs, but you do _come from_ A 16:43:28 a+=1; b-=1; 16:43:36 + isn't a label 16:43:37 ehird: haha 16:43:44 ehird: no, that's what I meant by gerund comefroms 16:43:50 maybe 16:43:54 ais523: i dont' get it 16:43:56 oklopol: i will 16:43:57 gerund nextfrom would be more useful, actually 16:44:07 ehird, conditional come from? 16:44:08 nextfrom +; number_of_additions++; resume 1; 16:44:13 I know ick has computed come from 16:44:18 AnMaster: just put your comefrom in an if () 16:44:23 example: 16:44:25 ehird: that doesn't work 16:44:28 ehird, really? that will work? 16:44:28 no, it does 16:44:30 watch: 16:44:33 because you want to be able to jump into the body of ifs, don't you? 16:44:36 (warning: this is perverse...) 16:44:41 * ehird writes 16:44:43 ais523, yes 16:44:47 oh, comefroms only become active inside the block they're in 16:44:48 so it does work 16:44:55 ugh, that's worse than INTERCAL 16:44:58 wait what? 16:45:04 can't you come from anywhere? 16:45:04 although arguably leads to more maintainable code 16:45:12 AnMaster: yes, but comefroms are dynamically scoped 16:45:16 so they're not active all the time 16:45:27 ais523: well you can probably comefrom into inside a block, if the label is inside the block from where the coming occurs 16:45:36 sort of if you write {int a;} {a=1;} in C, you get an error 16:45:39 ais523, ouch ouch ouch 16:45:47 ais523: nah, you will be able to jump into them manually 16:45:49 i mean { ... conditional comefrom A: ... } ... A: ... 16:45:50 it just won't happen automatically 16:46:07 isn't this _awful_? :D 16:46:11 ehird: nextfrom too, plz 16:46:16 dijkstra is cutting himself in his grave 16:46:19 it's just as useful in practice 16:46:20 ais523: wut 16:46:22 ais523, what is nextfrom in ick now again? 16:46:28 AnMaster: like comefrom, but saves return address 16:46:33 ah 16:46:33 well 16:46:38 that should be manual 16:46:38 ais523: oh so comefrom with a stack? 16:46:39 like: 16:46:40 CLC-INTERCAL had it first 16:46:41 ehird: yes 16:46:44 exactly that 16:46:52 ais523: all of my gotos/comefroms/function calls have a "stack" 16:46:57 yay 16:47:00 in that they can get a reference to the right place to goto 16:47:00 ais523: i think it's already with a stack, although locals overwrite the top of it 16:47:03 from whence you came 16:47:09 *stack++ = &this_function_name_goes_here; goto ... 16:47:10 thats how you return a value 16:47:12 then the other one does 16:47:26 goto *(--stack) 16:47:29 or something like that 16:47:34 looks something like this: 16:47:41 well different syntax than that I gues 16:47:45 but something like it 16:47:47 a(x) { x = x + 5; goto ->; } 16:47:56 then 16:48:01 so how do you undo the previous comefrom? 16:48:01 in intercal, it would be RESUME #4 to undo the last 4 nextfroms, for instance 16:48:01 a(1) evaluates to 6 16:48:05 oh and yes the #4 can be computed 16:48:07 ais523: goto ->; 16:48:15 ehird: uh-oh, that's exactly how gcc-bf actually implements function calls 16:48:19 HAHA 16:48:24 ais523, wait what!? 16:48:35 I call goto ->; the "finnish maneuver" 16:48:46 because you do it when you "finnish" your function! 16:48:48 AnMaster: what, how would you do it? 16:48:52 somebody call the pun police 16:48:55 oerjan! 16:49:00 ais523, ? 16:49:12 AnMaster: well, I had to implement function calls somehow 16:49:13 ais523, well I haven't considered that 16:49:18 I though you used a switch case 16:49:22 to select block 16:49:32 yes, that's how goto is implemented 16:49:41 what was above is how function calls are implemented in terms of goto 16:49:45 so there isn't a contradiction 16:49:45 ais523, oh return you mean 16:49:49 call/return, yes 16:49:55 right 16:50:03 exactly what does goto -> do? 16:50:07 i explained that. 16:50:15 ehird, yes but I didn't understand it 16:50:16 goto *--TOS 16:50:19 ah 16:50:19 -> is a label reference to the exact point one up in the goto stack 16:50:19 right 16:50:20 ok 16:50:31 ehird: does it pop the stack at the same time, or does the goto do that? 16:50:31 ->+1 is two levels up 16:50:35 ->+10 is ten levels up 16:50:37 actually, does the goto pop two levels when returning? 16:50:38 ehird: will the local variable x, after goto ->;, overwrite whatever local was created last in the calling function? 16:50:39 yes, overloading addition on label references 16:50:42 it works on every label reference 16:50:44 I am so perverse 16:50:52 and yes, that means you can do A-2 even if you haven't gone anywhere near A 16:50:59 ehird: heh, finds the label in the stack, then moves 2 away from it? 16:51:00 and get a reference to the point two levels up from A 16:51:04 ehird, why do you have functions at all? 16:51:06 ais523: something like that 16:51:11 AnMaster: well, good point 16:51:15 just do it all with labels 16:51:22 ehird, too close to basic 16:51:23 so 16:51:25 no no no 16:51:26 AnMaster: presumably the functions are to generate infinite data storage 16:51:28 they're nested, scoped labels. 16:51:32 ais523, oh? 16:51:41 well, you need infinite data somehow 16:51:44 true 16:51:48 nested scoped labels, hmmmmm 16:51:51 { var a = 0; var b = 0; call smth } { smth: var x = 5; goto -> }, what will a and b be after that? 16:51:51 ais523, infinite next stack 16:51:55 ehird: ^ 16:51:58 AnMaster: that's only one stack 16:51:59 oklopol: lemme look 16:52:10 ais523, you need to have local variables somewhere 16:52:10 oklopol: a will be 5 16:52:17 because it's on the same position in the local variable storage as a 16:52:18 and it should be common knowledge here what happens if you only have one stack, and no way to index arbitrarily deep into it so it isn't really a stack 16:52:20 pretty muchers 16:52:20 ais523, also you could just add array variables 16:52:22 i thinky 16:52:23 i dunno 16:52:24 lol 16:52:25 AnMaster: that's cheating 16:52:30 this is #esoteric 16:52:34 in fact, this thing really fucking confuses me 16:52:36 ais523, hm true 16:52:38 i don't get the semantics at all 16:52:43 I think it's a huge heap of special cases 16:52:43 besides, you can't have infinitely large arrays without bignum dimensions 16:52:46 ehird: why a? i mean wouldn't b be on top of the stack 16:52:51 oklopol: ok maybe 16:52:52 I don't know 16:52:53 or bignum numbers of dimensions, I suppose 16:53:01 hmm 16:53:05 I think we strayed away from this a bit 16:53:07 when we got into -> 16:53:12 I can imagine a lang where all arrays were indexed 0 to 1, but could have bignum numbers of dimensions 16:53:13 let's rewind a bit to the while (A: ...) & comefrom example 16:53:14 and go from there 16:53:22 ehird: no, it's just starting to get interesting 16:53:23 and anyway, you're just reinventing INTERCAL with a different syntax 16:53:30 ehird, what is the name of the language? 16:53:33 ais523: i'm not now, i'm rewinding 16:53:38 oklopol: yes, but let's rewind to get a better picture 16:53:41 AnMaster: i don't know! 16:53:59 ehird, also an idea: cometo 16:54:05 like goto and comefrom combined 16:54:08 so you do like 16:54:18 hmm. 16:54:32 { A: foo; } { B: bar; } { C: A cometo B } 16:54:54 so that means it will act as if there had been a "comefrom A" at B 16:55:01 dynamically scoped of course 16:55:07 18:52… ais523: and it should be common knowledge here what happens if you only have one stack, and no way to index arbitrarily deep into it so it isn't really a stack <<< what do you mean not really a stack? 16:55:08 ehird, what do you think of that idea? 16:55:08 AnMaster: code injection? 16:55:12 ais523, certainly 16:55:15 that's pretty much the definition of a stack 16:55:21 ais523, non-local effect too 16:55:27 i like it. 16:55:30 oklopol: if you can index arbitrarily deep without popping, it's basically an array which also has stacklike operations 16:55:39 AnMaster: that doesn't really work, it doesn't scale, semantically, methinks 16:55:44 will not have any uses, that is 16:55:45 oklopol, oh? 16:55:49 ehird: AnMaster; I've been looking for a way to do that in INTERCAL for a while 16:55:54 it's possible to do it right now, but hacky 16:56:09 AnMaster: what does it mean exactly to act as if it came from A? 16:56:11 anyway 16:56:12 just adding it as a new command didn't actually cross my mind for some reason 16:56:14 a(x) { 16:56:15 x = x + 1; 16:56:16 A: return x; 16:56:18 } 16:56:20 b(x) { 16:56:22 x = x - 1; 16:56:24 goto A; 16:56:26 } 16:56:28 a(x) { 16:56:30 while (A: (x -= 1) > 0) { 16:56:32 printf("hello world\n"); 16:56:34 } 16:56:34 oklopol: it's effectively self-modifying code, just dynamically scoped 16:56:36 } 16:56:38 b(x) { 16:56:39 so it unmodifies itself when you leave the block 16:56:39 goto B; 16:56:42 comefrom A; 16:56:44 printf("x = %i\n", x); 16:56:44 ais523: oh, i guess i misread your negations then 16:56:45 B: a(x); 16:56:47 } 16:56:50 let's go from thar 16:56:52 oklopol, like if C had comefrom A; goto B; but C will never end up on the stack 16:56:54 thought you said it's not a stack if you can't access all indices 16:57:08 http://www.cobolportal.com/index.asp?bhcp=1 16:57:19 oklopol, also if something was comefrom C it wouldn't affect it 16:57:25 AnMaster: ohhhhhh 16:57:29 i misunderstood it 16:57:34 oklopol, oh? 16:57:36 yeah that's an awesome instruction 16:57:41 oklopol, haha 16:57:47 cometo should be an unary operation 16:57:50 i don't know how 16:57:51 well i thought hitting that instruction would somehow flip A on top of stack, then call B 16:57:51 but it should 16:58:01 ehird, well it would be hard to do 16:58:08 if you can figure it out sure 16:58:13 but yeah, it just says "if, while this block is on stack, you hit A, goto B" 16:58:32 I must get back to thinking about DO INEVITABLY 16:58:40 which was a primitive which let you implement that sort of thing and more 16:58:44 wait 16:58:44 ais523: finally? 16:58:45 oklopol: 16:58:48 it basically meant "do this statement, but not quite yet" 16:58:49 that's just 16:58:49 "finally {}" 16:58:50 comefrom A; goto B; 16:58:52 idiots 16:58:55 :D 16:58:56 oklopol, no no, that would be: "C: camefrom A to B" 16:58:57 :P 16:58:58 the statement ran, but delayed a couple of cycles 16:58:59 see? 16:59:01 you're idiots. 16:59:02 ehird, what do you think of that one then? 16:59:03 listen tomeeeeeeeeeee 16:59:12 A cometo B 16:59:13 --> 16:59:15 comefrom A; goto B; 16:59:19 comefrom A; goto B; 16:59:21 ehird: that was the hack I was planning to use 16:59:21 not exactly 16:59:25 ehird: yes i heard 16:59:26 ehird, different 16:59:26 ais523: that's not a hack :P 16:59:28 AnMaster: how 16:59:28 it doesn't work, because it disrupts the callstack 16:59:34 ais523: ok, use nextfrom them 16:59:34 you end up with two entries rather than 1 16:59:35 then 16:59:40 ehird, 1) that will put the location of "goto B;" on the stack frame 16:59:52 well that's easy, just destackerize it or whatever 16:59:52 if you have separate comefrom/nextfrom, it works 16:59:54 ehird, 2) it will be affected by any comefrom at the location of comefrom A 17:00:17 except in INTERCAL it still doesn't work in all cases, it works for fixed labels A but not for gerunds 17:00:23 which is why you need hacks 17:00:28 ehird, 3) wouldn't this goto B when it was first executed? 17:00:34 since it is dynamically scoped 17:00:34 AnMaster: just goto out of it 17:00:41 hmm... you might be able to manage it for cometo by mixing nextfrom and forget, but not for nextto 17:00:41 { goto X; comefrom A; goto B; X: } 17:00:47 ah right 17:00:51 you don't create a new block of scope 17:00:55 so it still applies 17:00:56 right 17:01:07 just have a way to write "stack functions", that don't work on the normal stack, and that can be called to alter it 17:01:08 also AnMaster 17:01:10 isnce there's a comefrmo 17:01:13 it'd actually goto A 17:01:14 ehird, still the return issue is unsolved 17:01:14 then come from A 17:01:16 then go to B 17:01:16 unless you do 17:01:18 :D 17:01:35 { goto X; comefrom A; goto B; goto ->; X: } 17:01:42 oklopol: INTERCAL solves that problem by making all stack manipulation implicit 17:01:42 yeah 17:01:44 that's what I was thinking AnMaster 17:01:54 you could just make it a function 17:02:06 ehird, still this wouldn't work for goto ->+2 17:02:11 cometo(A,B) { goto X; comefrom A; goto B; goto ->+1; X: } 17:02:11 ais523: and i'm essentially saying maybe you could try making it explicit 17:02:12 then 17:02:13 or whatever the syntax was 17:02:14 cometo(A,B) 17:02:25 ehird, err, what if B does goto ->+10 17:02:28 then it would be one off 17:02:33 AnMaster: modify -> 17:02:35 just have it be implicit for the functions that have an explicit view of the stack under them 17:02:36 since that code would be skipped 17:02:43 ehird, what if you can't modify B's code? 17:02:46 cometo(A,B) { goto X; comefrom A; -> = -> + 1; goto B; goto ->; X: } 17:02:52 ehird, AH! 17:02:54 also 17:02:55 - 1 17:02:56 AnMaster: MWAHAHAHAHAHA :D 17:02:57 not + 1 17:02:58 also 17:02:59 er 17:03:00 yeah 17:03:03 cometo(A,B) { goto X; comefrom A; -> = -> - 1; goto B; goto ->; X: } 17:03:11 err 17:03:11 i think my brain just broke 17:03:12 wait 17:03:12 no? 17:03:13 :DDDDDDDDDD 17:03:18 ehird, I'm unsure 17:03:22 AnMaster: well, -1 17:03:24 i think 17:03:24 is best 17:03:26 ah yes 17:03:28 since the stack goes downwards 17:03:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:03:33 oh 17:03:33 but seriously, what 17:03:35 right 17:03:35 XD 17:03:38 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:03:41 cometo(A,B) { goto X; comefrom A; -> = -> - 1; goto B; goto ->; X: } 17:03:44 THAT JSUT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE 17:03:47 and even that doesn't solve the problem, because what if the code at B wants to return more than one level at once? It'll have to add 1 to the distance to return, for no reason obvious to it 17:03:52 ais523: no 17:03:52 cometo(A,B) { goto X; comefrom A; -> = -> - 1; goto B; goto ->; X: } 17:03:56 ehird, I think the goto -> will never be executed 17:03:56 ehird: aha 17:04:03 AnMaster: oh, right 17:04:03 it won't 17:04:05 you've just added yet another INTERCAL operator 17:04:06 cometo(A,B) { goto X; comefrom A; -> = -> - 1; goto B; X: } 17:04:08 ais523: no 17:04:09 that's "FORGET #1" in INTERCAL 17:04:12 I'm generalizing the whole control flow thing 17:04:15 yes 17:04:22 also, intercal isn't quite as hectic as this 17:04:26 I still think you're reinventing INTERCAL, though 17:04:27 this is completely freeform 17:04:43 also 17:04:43 ehird, what about return values? 17:04:49 INTERCAL has no label refs apart from constant ones and -> 17:04:50 and it's completely freefrom in INTERCAL too, if only because it's sufficiently low-level that "inside expressions" in your lang = "between statements" in INTERCAL 17:04:56 and wrong 17:04:56 as my cometo shows, they can be passed around 17:04:57 ehird, you could use a global variable for it 17:05:00 computed COME FROM 17:05:00 like $return 17:05:03 or whatever 17:05:03 ais523: yes 17:05:05 that's different 17:05:10 and you can do computed gotos too 17:05:11 AnMaster: no 17:05:12 just not directly 17:05:15 ehird, no? 17:05:16 you make it so that the func you returns to 17:05:16 it takes a few statements 17:05:17 oerjan! 17:05:17 gets teh value 17:05:20 on the top of the stack 17:05:27 ehird, right... 17:05:30 givemeatwo() { a = 2; goto -> } 17:05:30 ehird, example? 17:05:32 ehird: well, yes, that's the normal way to do call/return in INTERCAL 17:05:33 * oerjan belatedly puts ehird in handcuffs for punning without a license 17:05:37 since a resides on the top of the stack 17:05:41 ehird, ouch 17:05:42 givemeatwo() evaluates to 2 17:05:46 because when you go back, it's still on the top of the stack 17:05:48 as the result 17:05:49 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 17:05:52 * oerjan then gives up reading the channel again 17:05:56 ehird, err no 17:05:57 only difference is that scoping is explicit 17:05:57 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:06:01 AnMaster: oh yes 17:06:03 the goto -> will have popped it 17:06:06 nope 17:06:10 not using a stack there 17:06:11 or is the call stack separate? 17:06:14 the value stack stays the same 17:06:16 oerjan: the beginning was actually pretty interesting 17:06:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:06:25 [17:05] ehird: well, yes, that's the normal way to do call/return in INTERCAL 17:06:27 [17:05] only difference is that scoping is explicit 17:06:30 we saw 17:06:35 ah, I didn't realise 17:06:36 ehird, ouch that means you will have to remember to pop the stack of any local variables before returning 17:06:39 how would you do it 17:06:40 of course, i now believe ais523 in that all this is already intercal 101 17:06:46 my connection must have dropped for recieve but not send, for some reason 17:06:52 *receive 17:06:53 AnMaster: um, let me think 17:06:58 hmm 17:07:01 just don't do that 17:07:01 xD 17:07:03 AnMaster: RETRIEVE .2 + .3 + .4 17:07:05 or whatever 17:07:10 we're talking about my language, ais523 17:07:12 ehird, hm? 17:07:20 ehird: ok, well INTERCAL gives each variable name its own stack 17:07:24 ehird, it would make variables kind of useless 17:07:25 so you can use them all synchronized for scoping 17:07:27 AnMaster: nope 17:07:34 just take the variables from your caller 17:07:36 or you can have two different interlocking scoping schemes, if you like 17:07:37 and put them back before returning 17:07:41 you could write a function to do it 17:07:49 just do ->-2 in the function, and examine the variables 17:07:50 ehird, you need to know who your caller is 17:07:51 put them on the stack 17:07:53 then goto -> 17:07:55 AnMaster: you do 17:07:56 -> 17:07:57 to know what number of variables it has 17:08:04 -> is the reference to your caller 17:08:08 hm 17:08:09 ok 17:08:15 imagine C where you could write { braceint a = 2; /* a valid */ [ bracketint b = 3; /* a and b valid */ } /* b valid */ ] /* neither valid */ 17:08:32 ais523, haha 17:08:51 INTERCAL's like that, except you can have a practically unlimited number of independent scoping mechanisms 17:08:52 ais523: i like that 17:08:59 (although there are only finitely many variable names) 17:09:03 WHAT. A ONE CHARACTER DOMAIN NAME. 17:09:03 WANT. 17:09:15 oh? 17:09:16 wher? 17:09:18 *where? 17:09:21 Over there! 17:09:25 ais523, believe it or not, but I actually wanted something like that when doing "serious" programming recently 17:09:47 ehird: plz show me i can't see. 17:09:51 oklopol: look closer 17:10:04 AnMaster: I've said several times before that INTERCAL's control flow is really nice and actually suited to serious programming, just the lang isn't because its expressions are bad and string handling is awful 17:10:10 only I didn't think anyone was listening 17:10:22 ehird, what tld? There are so many now when since ICANN did that thing with them... I can't find witch one 17:10:24 ehird: is it a whitespace character, by any chance? 17:10:28 AnMaster: .cx 17:10:29 ais523: no 17:10:35 ehird, ah 17:10:41 also, whose was .cx originally? 17:10:45 cook islands 17:10:47 before it got taken over by goatse? 17:10:48 err 17:10:48 no 17:10:50 that's .ck 17:10:54 well, .co.ck 17:11:00 ah 17:11:01 christmas island 17:11:01 checkoslovakia iirc? 17:11:05 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_Island 17:11:05 ah no 17:11:10 AnMaster: that isn't even a real country any mroe 17:11:11 ehird, that should be .xmas 17:11:12 IMO 17:11:13 it got split into 2 17:11:17 Population 17:11:17 - 2006 estimate1,493 (n/a) 17:11:19 ais523, oh right true 17:11:21 and all country codes are two chars 17:11:22 AnMaster: tat makes no sense :P 17:11:37 ais523, ah true 17:12:17 ehird, hm for balance I still think you need cometo and gofrom 17:12:23 quick! what's your favourite shade of gray? 17:12:26 in hex 17:12:27 192 17:12:31 in hex 17:12:31 c0c0c0 17:12:40 and I said 192 before you said in hex 17:12:40 * AnMaster don't know 17:12:44 darker? :D 17:12:59 010101 17:13:23 why would you ask grey especially in hex? 17:13:23 #eee 17:13:34 actually no 17:13:40 because you don't want people to do it the hard way? 17:13:41 #fefefe 17:13:47 that is my favourite grey 17:13:49 AnMaster: that's pretty light 17:13:58 lol 17:14:00 fefefe shows as white on every screen 17:14:00 ais523, yes I prefer white over grey 17:14:01 i think 17:14:04 that just about sums up me and AnMaster 17:14:04 so light that it would probably go out the other side of white on my screen at some angles 17:14:05 :D 17:14:13 19:12… oklopol: 010101 || 19:13… AnMaster: #fefefe 17:14:21 ha 17:14:21 agreed 17:14:34 WE'RE THE SAME ONLY OPPOSITES 17:14:35 ... 17:14:39 my screen's weird, it gets darker and darker as you adjust the angle (or lighter and ligher in the other direction), until it goes past the blackest or whitest colour and comes out the other side 17:14:41 drinking time -> 17:14:42 in inverse video 17:14:43 oklopol, oh hm, this is some classical symbology(sp?) in that I think 17:14:50 ais523: that's not odd 17:14:53 that's typical LCD behaviour 17:14:55 well, yes 17:15:00 oklopol, like evil and good 17:15:01 typical LCD behaviour is weird, though 17:15:02 or something 17:15:07 (I even know how it happens, to some extent) 17:15:25 yes, 010101/fefefe is one of the texts in those jing-jang t-shirts 17:15:27 ais523, how does it happen 17:15:30 I don't know 17:15:36 AnMaster: do you know how an LCD works? 17:15:38 oklopol, "jing-jang t-shirts"? 17:15:46 AnMaster: it's ying/yang in English, if that helps 17:15:47 ais523, yes 17:15:48 AnMaster: t-shirts with the symbol. 17:15:53 hmm 17:15:54 right, ofc 17:15:56 ais523, it helps slightly 17:15:59 well, Yin/Yang 17:16:08 I prefer ping/pong 17:16:08 AnMaster: well, it's to do with the screens not being infinitely thin 17:16:26 so if you see them at an angle, the polarisation twisting isn't lined up perfectly 17:16:34 right 17:16:44 different voltages affect the amount of twisting to produce different colours, so it's possible you can twist more than 90 degrees and come out the other side of black 17:16:45 i don't believe in polarization, i think. 17:16:47 that I know of, though this one has a pretty good viewing angle 17:16:59 if a weird viewing angle is rotating it too far 17:17:07 I need to go around 80 degrees before I notice anything 17:17:08 i haven't decided really, but that sounds like something i don't have to believe in 17:17:15 AnMaster: it must be a good thin one then 17:17:20 * ehird licenses his stuff under Creative Commons Attribution 1.0 Generic 17:17:22 because he is oldschool 17:17:24 oklopol: do you have a calculator? 17:17:26 and because newer versions are useless 17:17:30 ais523, a 21" 1400x1050 TFT 17:17:32 ais523: yes 17:17:43 oklopol: if you don't believe in polarisation, how can you see the numbers on it/ 17:17:51 ais523, also it isn't inverted video even at 90 degrees 17:17:51 ais523: by looking 17:18:04 oklopol: have you ever looked at your calculator through a polarising filter? 17:18:05 or close to that anyway 17:18:05 doesn't involve polarizing anything afaik! 17:18:08 oklopol: don't ever start making sense <3 17:18:15 ais523: think i believe in those? 17:18:16 :D 17:18:17 from inside another calculator would do, although it's a bit hard to climb inside them 17:18:25 they're just slightly shaded glass 17:18:47 oklopol: if you have two polarising filters next to them, and start rotating them 17:18:52 then it becomes clear they aren't shaded glass 17:19:08 ais523, you think oklopol is serious? 17:19:17 actually, that would be ehird's comment to me 17:19:19 heh 17:19:27 oklopol is serious 17:19:29 ais523: well. that's a bit hard to explain ;=) 17:19:29 that's the thing. 17:19:33 ehird, hm 17:19:38 I GUESS WE'LL NEVER KNOW WHY THAT HAPPENS. 17:19:48 there are lots of things you can more or less get away with not knowing, or not agreeing with whilst being wrong 17:19:48 maybe i should open my rwh now 17:19:55 oklopol, do you believe in Star Trek? 17:20:31 rwh? 17:20:32 wtf is that 17:20:39 ais523: true. but science isn't exact, knowing it might be useless if it happens to be wrong. 17:20:46 real world haskell 17:20:48 well, yes 17:20:50 so i say why bother 17:20:50 ah 17:20:53 ! 17:20:57 oklopol, do you believe in Star Trek? 17:21:08 well okay, i guess i should believe in polarization, because it's so effing cool 17:21:12 anyway, I'm an engineer, and engineers know things that tend to work in practice are often useful even if they are wrong 17:21:19 i'll believe it's a close approximation of how light works 17:21:33 heh 17:21:57 i hate... 17:21:59 i hate things 17:22:03 ais523: well, an abstraction can't really be "wrong" 17:22:06 ais523, anyway the color issue is much larger on laptops than desktop TFTs in my experience 17:22:08 no idea why 17:22:17 you might just realize it's a bad abstraction 17:22:22 and call it wrong 17:22:27 well, I suppose so 17:22:30 but if it was once useful, probably it's still useful 17:22:35 polarisation's just statistical behaviour anyway 17:22:36 ais523, do you know? 17:22:39 but one which is nice to know about 17:22:41 of course 17:22:45 all physics is 17:22:51 AnMaster: I'd guess the screens are better-quality on desktop TFTs 17:22:57 well not all physics. 17:23:00 ais523, hm. 17:23:00 but kinetics and the like 17:23:04 grrrrrrrrrrrrrr 17:23:58 ais523, I do notice colour shift at the edge for certain slightly off white values, need to be around 254,254,254 before I notice it though 17:24:07 but very very slight 17:24:21 who wants to stop things sucking????? 17:24:24 ais523, in other aspects this monitor is really low quality :( 17:24:35 ais523, like the foot of it, not very well adjustable 17:24:47 or the fact it is VGA only, no DVI 17:24:55 ais523: do you play chess? 17:25:02 I used to, although I haven't for ages 17:25:19 I was the captain of the house chess team, and played for the school first team 17:25:24 but I haven't played for about 4 years now 17:25:26 so you're awesome? 17:25:34 my brother's much better than I am 17:25:42 and sort of lapsed-decent, rather than awesome 17:25:48 I'm awful at chess. 17:25:49 Awful. 17:25:49 really out of practice 17:25:51 wanna teach me the art? 17:26:06 wait 17:26:11 oklopol: you're not perfect at something? 17:26:13 holy shit 17:26:14 you can get a lot better at chess by not making mistakes 17:26:28 in fact, I think that gets you right up above grandmaster level 17:26:34 lol 17:26:34 the mistakes just get more subtle as time goes on 17:26:37 ehird: i'm actually relatively bad at games where every move can get you killed 17:26:41 hmm... chess is like NetHack in that respect 17:26:48 the more robust the better i get 17:26:54 i'm like an anticomputer at games 17:27:00 proto: chess, the FPS 17:27:08 ehird: how? 17:27:17 ais523: if i knew that it wouldn't be a proto 17:27:22 * ais523 games little enough that they had to think about the acronym... 17:27:35 ehird: even you aren't that fast at coding 17:27:36 ais523: oh, that wasn't a joke? 17:28:19 i mean 17:28:25 the reason i can't do chess is 17:28:34 it wasn't much of a joke 17:28:36 i think like 7 plies ahead 17:28:45 then move the last piece in my train of thought 17:28:46 generally speaking, the person who loses a game of chess is the first to make a mistake 17:28:50 unless the other makes a bigger mistake later 17:28:51 because at that point i've solved the situation 17:28:56 and heh, I do that as well 17:29:01 although not 7 ahead 17:29:01 and lose my concentration 17:29:05 well. 17:29:07 i meant many plies 17:29:19 7 was just a random number 17:29:24 I'm no good at visualising more than about 2 plies 17:29:31 I -can't- think ahead. :P 17:29:51 heh, once I wrote a tic tac toe solver whose objective was to beat itself 17:29:55 ehird: you're forked, then 17:29:56 -!- kar8nga has quit (Connection timed out). 17:30:01 (when it looked ahead (brute-force), it played against itself) 17:30:12 ehird: that's how you always do it 17:30:13 naturally, it was pretty awful 17:30:16 oklopol: nope 17:30:23 because it only ever tried to be better than itself 17:30:24 that's the way to brute-force games 17:30:27 it's a recursive issue 17:30:47 oklopol: it depends on what the evaluation function was 17:30:56 but for noughts-and-crosses, you can analyse until the game ends 17:31:12 ais523: basically, "if I beat or tie myself, this is a good solution" 17:31:20 but since that's the definition of itself, it kind of sucked 17:31:35 ehird, still have the code? 17:31:42 nah 17:31:44 I think it would always end at a draw 17:31:49 um, no shit 17:31:49 ehird: that's actually the best possible (if not fastest) algorithm if you brute-force to the end and know whether a position's won, lost, drawn or unfinished 17:31:50 :P 17:31:52 hmm. i don't understand how that's different from just brute-forcing the perfect solution 17:32:02 ais523: i think you misunderstand :D 17:32:08 oklopol: because it doesn't fight against every possibility 17:32:11 just every possibility that is tried 17:32:18 and yet that's how you determine what to try... 17:32:26 ehird: if it's brute-forcing, it does try every possibility 17:32:27 huh? 17:32:30 so what does top-level try? 17:32:35 ais523: nope, it didn't 17:32:41 what happens when first move happens? 17:32:44 happen happen 17:32:46 then you aren't brute-forcing, so what are you doing? 17:32:50 ais523: i wish I knew 17:33:02 hmm, cgit's template files are c files 17:33:06 that's disappointing 17:33:14 isn't taking the middle square the best first move in tic tac toe? 17:33:20 well. the idea is brute-forcing, maybe you're just fucking it up somehow ;) 17:34:20 http://hjemli.net/git/cgit/tree/ui-log.c :( 17:34:25 AnMaster: it doesn't matter which square you take 17:34:36 ais523: errr yes ti does? 17:34:37 it's a draw for all 9 possible starting moves 17:34:53 although if you start in a corner, the opponent has to reply in the middle to avoid losing 17:34:58 right but with the middle you have more of a chance of -winning- against an idiot 17:35:08 ah 17:35:17 ehird: only if you assume the idiot plays in the middle given the chance 17:35:26 even idiots do that. 17:35:26 if you play in the corner, the idiot has 7 losing moves and only 1 drawing move 17:35:33 if you play in the middle, the idiot has a 50/50 chance 17:35:37 same if you play at an edge 17:35:38 hm. 17:35:53 hm 17:36:29 how many possible tic tac toe games are there? 17:36:37 few hundred thousand 17:36:38 I think 17:36:40 nine factorial 17:36:42 less if you discard symmetrical ones 17:36:48 hm 17:36:48 so yes, about a few hundred thousand 17:36:49 right 17:36:52 362880 17:36:54 except 17:36:56 if you discard symmetry, it's less than 100 IIRC 17:36:57 nine factorial is an upper bound 17:36:58 less if you discard duplicates. 17:37:12 oklopol: oh, because the games can end before all the squares are filled/ 17:37:16 not all games only after last move 17:37:21 ais523: yes 17:37:26 ... 17:37:28 ais523, even when the other person don't play perfect? and when you consider taking a first then b or b first then a different? 17:37:30 not all games *fucking end* only after last move 17:37:36 though both could lead to the same end result 17:37:48 and what oklopol said 17:38:02 AnMaster: the one that was incorrect or the one with fuck? 17:38:04 AnMaster: yes and no to your two questions 17:38:37 i mean if you meant the first one, why would you quote a broken sentence? and if you meant the latter one, please don't swear, it's not your style 17:38:40 oklopol, the latter 17:39:10 AnMaster: say fuck 17:39:22 -!- tyrelle has left (?). 17:39:30 * ais523 wonders whether to surprise everyone by saying lol 17:39:32 ehird, why would I? 17:39:33 yes of course nine factorial is a pretty loose upper bound also because the order doesn't matter 17:39:38 AnMaster: novelty 17:39:39 ais523, you just did 17:39:46 i mean 17:39:46 ehird, not when you told me to 17:39:49 AnMaster: I've typed it before, but only in quoted contexts 17:39:51 AnMaster: don't say fuck 17:39:56 I haven't actually used it, just mentioned it 17:40:00 not taking order into account isn't even much harder than taking the factorial 17:40:01 ehird, too late, I don't fall for that trick 17:40:12 ais523, ah right 17:40:16 you just take 4 out of 9... 17:40:20 I only ever quote the word too 17:40:22 I think 17:40:24 of course I know of the existence of lol 17:40:29 I think I used "lol" once really 17:40:30 same verb character in j 17:40:32 just people don't use it with its intended meaning 17:40:35 only dyadic vs. monadic 17:40:37 so it's become meaningless recently 17:41:04 sometimes I do laugh out loud; I have been for about 5 minutes now (good thing there's nobody else in here) 17:41:08 also 17:41:13 but "lol" is no longer a good way to express that 17:41:14 the correct answer isn't 9! 17:41:17 the correct answer is: 17:41:32 "as long as there are humans or other creatures to play it there can be more" 17:41:33 AnMaster: Of course it isn't, there are more than 9 games! 17:41:33 :P 17:41:49 wut 17:41:50 ais523, that was ! as in factorial 17:41:54 AnMaster: no shit 17:41:59 way to ruin his joke 17:42:02 ehird, lame joke yes 17:42:09 oh as a joke. 17:42:14 I never said unique games :P 17:42:27 also 17:42:29 wtf is this 17:42:36 and really 17:42:39 * AnMaster looks at the SQL statement 17:42:46 9 choose 4, *not* nine factorial 17:43:04 you can tell I was joking due to the capital letter at the start of the sentence, the joke didn't work without it 17:43:07 it's like one character longer, and seven billion times smaller. 17:43:12 and I rarely do that normally 17:43:40 hmm... maybe we should come up with a new IRC convention, which states that correct capitalisation and punctuation indicates sarcasm 17:43:45 17:19:29 PESOIX? 17:43:45 17:19:33 <-- new 17:43:47 -- 2005 17:43:49 ais523: it already does imo 17:43:50 I mean, completely correct, initcaps and fullstop at the end 17:44:24 well, not completely correct, but that's one standard way to indicate you're not being serious, if you don't do that normally 17:45:40 btw 17:45:41 >>> !9 17:45:41 362880 17:45:41 >>> 4!9 17:45:41 126 17:45:53 oklopol: teach me j 17:45:57 err 17:45:59 in ssql 17:46:00 sql* 17:46:06 what is the ORDER BY to sort backwards 17:46:13 AnMaster: DESC 17:46:14 I forgot the keyword 17:46:16 desc/asc 17:46:17 ah thanks 17:46:27 wait... 17:46:35 actually that upper bound actually isn't correct 17:46:38 but for a moment, I thought you were correcting ehird, saying that ehird really meant to ask oklopol to teach him J in SQL 17:46:41 once you take into accound games can end prematurely 17:46:45 which would be weird 17:47:04 ais523: i thought AnMaster thought oklopol was showing AnMaster some code that he'd asked for 17:47:05 blah. is suck at translating reality into math 17:47:08 and he wanted it in sql instead 17:47:18 err? 17:47:19 what? 17:47:23 AnMaster: desc 17:47:23 nothing. 17:47:28 ehird, no I'm multitasking 17:47:30 asc/desc, asc is implicit 17:47:37 also ais523 said that already 17:47:43 wait, I'm trying to follow the threads of conversation here 17:47:46 great it didn't sort correctly when selecting from the sorted view 17:47:48 wonder why 17:47:56 it's almost feels as if there are two conversations 17:47:59 only they're impossible to separate 17:48:04 ais523: there are always multiple 17:48:10 yes, but rare for them to get this intertwined 17:48:20 21:04:58 It would be more esoteric to make pop-from-empty-stack read from stdin :) 17:48:22 -- 2005 17:48:26 it's like befunge 17:48:49 that's not esoteric 17:48:51 what, on division by 0? 17:48:54 ais523: yep 17:48:57 "why not have the arguments of the program in the stack!!" 17:49:01 well 17:49:04 not arguments 17:49:06 and <> reads from stdin on Perl when it runs out of argv 17:49:07 oklopol: thats not related 17:49:08 it means like 17:49:13 but if you consider stdin the args to the program 17:49:19 "The stack is empty. What value should be on top?> " 17:49:21 oh, from any stack? 17:49:25 yep 17:49:29 ah. 17:49:45 hm, 17:49:54 is INNER JOIN or LEFT JOIN fastest in general? 17:50:01 all those join types confuse me 17:50:03 well then that's just an object that has two separate uses, which are intertwined to make it very error-prone 17:50:05 AnMaster: inner IIRC 17:50:07 so yeah, pretty eso 17:50:10 because it doesn't have to compare against NULL 17:50:14 but they do different things 17:50:30 ais523, all columns are NOT NULL, and in my case they end up doing the same result 17:50:30 if you're asking which is fastest, either you're doing something really weird or you aren't thinking about the problem 17:50:36 you know what sucks? 17:50:39 oh, then they should take exactly the same length of time 17:50:40 navigation 17:50:45 navigation should be implicit 17:50:46 always 17:50:46 if you have at least a half-decent database engine 17:51:06 inner is faster for the same reason ++i is faster than i++ 17:51:17 ais523, except this is mysql (eww yes I know, I hate it, not my choice), and EXPLAIN says INNER JOIN here doesn't use the indexs 17:51:20 which is very strange 17:51:23 the question is how you implicitify navigable aids without making a separate form for them. 17:51:25 while left join does 17:51:31 AnMaster: MySQL's optimiser is strange, it seems to pick at random 17:51:37 what happens if you add a FORCE INDEX to it? 17:51:37 ais523, yes I agree 17:51:48 ais523, SQL error... let me try again 17:52:01 I never can remember exactly where you're supposed to put it 17:52:28 hmmm. 17:52:35 i don't think form is inherently navigable. 17:52:36 ais523, actually if I add a WHERE = first explains says they are the same 17:52:42 this make really no sense 17:52:48 makes* 17:53:39 AnMaster: is it a small table? 17:53:53 ais523, currently yes, expected to grow a lot in the future 17:53:54 on small tables, MySQL sometimes randomly decides that using an index isn't worth the bother 17:53:58 and often it's actually right 17:54:11 it would be nice to have an EXPLAIN ON HYPOTHETICAL BIG TABLE SELECT 17:54:17 yes it would 17:54:41 huh 17:54:46 now this is just crazy 17:55:01 1 SIMPLE history ref tid,pid pid 4 const 2 Using where 17:55:14 * AnMaster tries to change join type 17:55:31 AnMaster: well, const is a pretty useful join type to have 17:55:41 it's the second-fastest 17:55:53 ais523, which one is the fastest then? PRIMARY I assume? 17:56:01 AnMaster: no, the type where the table only has one row 17:56:03 or zero 17:56:06 well thing is... I *only* select on primary keys 17:56:13 in this case 17:56:14 PRIMARY's not a join type, it's a key type 17:56:25 and join on "not primary -> primary" 17:56:30 ais523, true 17:56:35 but primary index should be the fastest 17:56:43 AnMaster: not on MyISAM 17:56:52 all indexes are equally fast there IIRC 17:57:00 ais523, innodb since I need foreign key constraints 17:57:05 I hate mysql and innodb 17:57:06 oh, primary is fastest there 17:57:15 SELECT history.revid, history.tid, text.uid, text.timestamp, text.title, user.realname FROM (history INNER JOIN `text` ON (history.tid = text.tid) INNER JOIN user ON (text.uid = user.uid)) WHERE history.pid = 4 ORDER BY history.revid DESC 17:57:16 btw 17:57:22 InnoDB is too much trying to be like other database engines, IMO 17:57:34 ais523, I would much prefer postgresql 17:57:38 they should stick to MyISAM which is not a database in the conventional sense, but is nonetheless useful 17:57:55 ais523, anyway can you see anything obviously stupid in the above query? 17:58:15 I guess I can let this pass for now... 17:58:20 that should be 3 const lookups, one using where 17:58:23 which should be very fast 17:58:32 unless you have duplicate pids in the history table 17:58:42 or duplicate tids in text, or duplicate uids in user 17:58:42 ais523, yes that can exist 17:58:48 no duplicate tids though 17:58:56 nor uids? 17:58:56 pids in history can be duplicate 17:59:08 no other key I'm testing on can be 17:59:11 in that case, it should be const/const/const, with affected rows (small number), 1, 1 17:59:14 ais523, oh yes they are dup 17:59:18 in the text tample 17:59:20 which is very fast 17:59:21 table* 17:59:27 so no, nothing looks wrong with that 17:59:27 ais523, sorry for that 17:59:32 id select_type table type possible_keys key key_len ref rows Extra 17:59:32 1 SIMPLE history ref pid pid 4 const 2 Using where 17:59:32 1 SIMPLE text eq_ref PRIMARY PRIMARY 4 vcms.history.tid 1 17:59:32 1 SIMPLE user eq_ref PRIMARY PRIMARY 4 vcms.text.uid 1 17:59:35 is what it says 17:59:54 that's a good query 18:00:01 ais523, and sorry, text.uid and history.pid can be dup 18:00:08 ref const, eq_ref primary, eq_red primary 18:00:17 three O(1) queries joined 18:00:21 well, O(number of results) 18:00:26 ais523, where are those abbreviations explains 18:00:31 which is much faster than O(size of database), which is what slow queries are 18:00:37 also number of results depend on number of edits on the page 18:00:43 AnMaster: there's a whole chapter of the MySQL docs about it 18:00:54 also, you can't possibly get faster than O(n) in the number of results, for obvious reasons 18:01:03 well yes 18:01:15 ais523, I expect at least quite a few results. 18:01:38 you can't optimise that any faster in computational class terms, so don't try 18:01:50 micro-optimising is just not worth it 18:02:07 true 18:02:23 ais523, I agree 18:02:23 I was just confused why it didn't want to use indexes sometimes 18:02:37 AnMaster: because the table was so small that a full table scan was faster than loading the indexes 18:03:44 ais523, true I don't have a lot of entries yet since I'm continually changing the schema when I find bugs 18:03:57 so I have an sql file that I change then import that resets the database 18:04:15 ais523, also what about longtext type, is it sane for using to store pages in? 18:04:27 longtext is too long 18:04:29 try text. 18:04:29 I have been unable to find info about that in the mysql docs 18:04:31 I'm not sure, but I think so 18:04:36 err left join was join + keep all entries of leftie, inner was just join? 18:04:37 longtext is for pretty massive pages 18:04:47 oklopol: yes, pretty much 18:04:48 ehird, hm isn't text like 32 kb? 18:04:56 i think mor 18:04:57 e 18:05:02 * AnMaster looks 18:05:04 64 kb probably 18:05:11 as MySQL like using whole numbers of bytes 18:05:16 well 18:05:22 I need more than that 18:05:28 what are you storing 18:05:30 and 64 KiB = a two-byte length 18:05:36 ehird, wiki pages 18:05:42 64 kb is enough. 18:05:45 if it isn't, fix your pages :P 18:05:54 ehird, well ever looked at gentoo wiki? 18:05:57 ehird: what if they have embedded data: URLs to images? 18:06:01 yes, and I never looked again, AnMaster 18:06:10 ehird, some are over 100 kb 18:06:12 quite a few in fact 18:06:14 yes. fix that. 18:06:30 well, long text it is, though this isn't gentoo wiki 18:07:00 sql doesn't have an infinitely extending type? 18:07:07 or am i completely out of context 18:07:08 no. 18:07:27 (i don't really know much about practical db's, as should be obvious) 18:07:38 oklopol: what do you think about my work in progress db? 18:07:41 it serializes objects to a graph 18:07:44 GRAPHS 18:07:47 FUCKING GRAPHS. 18:07:50 you love graphs. 18:08:04 (except queries, but of course just the actual query syntax) 18:08:15 graphs are pretty awesome 18:08:29 exactly 18:08:34 well 18:08:43 contact me the day when the product is ready :P 18:08:51 go to hell, practical jackass. :| 18:09:25 yeah, who wants to finish a program when you already know how to do it 18:09:26 ehird, hey I was all for your comefrom/goto lang 18:09:30 and I still am 18:09:35 I hate doing things I already know how to do. 18:09:48 kerlo, like eating? 18:09:53 kerlo: yeah they're almost as bad as things i don't know how to do 18:10:03 Well, eating is an exception. It's an instant gratification thing. 18:10:11 ah 18:10:15 kerlo, sleeping? waking up? 18:10:26 I hate doing both. :-) 18:10:34 Well. 18:10:43 I hate eating, sleeping and waking up, but not messing around on IRC 18:10:59 Yeah, messing around on IRC is fine because you don't have to actually do anything. 18:11:17 well at least you don't have to achieve anything. 18:11:21 ok this is evil, a wiki that requires users to use valid xhtml 1.1 syntax (filtered to a safe set of whitelisted tags, attributes and attribute values) 18:11:22 :) 18:11:29 no horrible wiki syntax thing 18:11:37 markdown isn't horrible 18:11:37 Unfortunately, I have obligations. 18:11:38 xhtml 1.1 is 18:11:45 therefore, fail 18:11:48 ehird, well I was thinking of mediawiki syntax 18:11:57 AnMaster: the requirement for valid xhtml 1.1 is so it can be filtered more easily? 18:11:58 also for extra eww this is coded in php 18:12:06 please die. 18:12:07 :) 18:12:11 ais523, no because otherwise firefox renders it badly 18:12:14 ais523, like "error" 18:12:20 when you send the correct mime type 18:12:21 and such 18:12:27 AnMaster: yes, I know 18:12:31 but I mean, why did they pick XHTML 18:12:34 not, say, HTML? 18:12:39 my guess is so it's easier to filter 18:12:41 ais523: AnMaster loves XHTML because it's newer. 18:12:43 ais523, s/they/me/ 18:12:47 what am postel's law? what am server-side filtering? 18:12:51 what am intelligence 18:12:55 ais523, also it is easier to filter 18:13:06 ehird: yes, what /am/ postel's law? 18:13:13 also 18:13:18 ais523: what am google 18:13:20 although "what am intelligence" seems surprisingly philosophical 18:13:21 all the layout is in css 2.1 18:13:22 :D 18:13:32 no tables for layout 18:13:39 only tables for actual tables 18:13:51 not even tables for form layout 18:13:57 no shit 18:13:59 you're so unique 18:14:02 AnMaster: how do you enforce that rule? 18:14:03 never mind that 500 other people do that. 18:14:04 ehird, sadly I am 18:14:16 ais523, I don't, but I mean the software in itself 18:14:32 iirc even mediawiki use(ed?) tables for login form 18:14:40 s/ed/d/ 18:15:16 yep it does 18:15:18 18:15:18 18:15:18 tabindex="1" 18:15:18 value="" size='20' /> 18:15:19 18:15:21 and so on 18:15:22 s/\((.*\?\)/$1/ 18:15:31 ais523, hah 18:15:37 not sure if it still does 18:15:56 ais523, that was from en.wikipedia 18:16:02 like 10 seconds ago 18:16:13 ais523, maybe it doesn't in trunk 18:16:17 but on wikipedia it does 18:16:46 AnMaster: I doubt they've fixed it 18:16:59 changing one CSS identifier in MediaWiki causes people to kick up a stink sometimes 18:17:09 ais523, btw: http://rafb.net/p/LWWpzm49.html 18:17:12 "You should have consulted the community before messing up all our non-robust scripts!" 18:17:22 ais523, that is my login form, that renders the same way 18:17:25 also 18:17:33 yes mediawiki themeing is a mess 18:17:34 what am grammar 18:17:39 no Captcha? 18:17:39 it should be just changing a css file 18:17:43 ais523, not for login 18:17:46 ah, ok 18:17:58 ais523, for register there is such support, but register isn't coded yet 18:18:15 AnMaster: you're actually building a wiki that requires completely valid, whitelisted xhtml 1.1 as its page input? 18:18:20 as in, register.php is: 18:18:20 wow, you're more idiotic than I previously thought possible 18:18:33 ehird, not my choice, this is for a school course 18:18:33 actually, I like the idea 18:18:46 although it would be for different purposes than Wikipedia, say 18:18:47 AnMaster: I am sure "completely-valid XHTML 1.1" is your choice. 18:18:54 ehird, yes... 18:18:56 Also, I really don't care who likes the idea, because it's a bad one. 18:19:03 ais523, oh and it uses object orientation in php 18:19:04 instead of a quick-edit anyone-can-join wiki, it would be a lets-use-this-to-maintain-a-website wiki 18:19:08 NOT my choice 18:19:12 AnMaster: so do lots of other PHP programs 18:19:16 true 18:19:19 Maintaining a website in XHTML 1.1 is grounds for the death penalty. 18:19:22 but php OOP is horrible 18:19:24 ever used it? 18:19:35 ais523, btw my login form css basically works similar to this: http://www.websiteoptimization.com/speed/tweak/forms/ 18:19:37 no, but I've tried to read code that uses it 18:19:45 except not px but em for the sizes 18:19:51 to make it scale correctly 18:19:53 ehird: maintaining a website in XHTML is taking all the suffering onto yourself for the good of the rest of the world 18:19:58 writing in plain HTML is being selfish 18:19:59 ais523: no, there is no good 18:20:04 there are no exceptions to postel's law 18:20:14 ehird: writing in XHTML /is/ postel's law 18:20:22 it's not 18:20:29 wtf is postel's law 18:20:29 ? 18:20:33 it is, because it's very strict and easy to parse for other programs 18:20:34 google it. 18:20:42 valid, well-formed, XHTML 1.1 is no more cleaner and easy to process than the same with HTML 4.01 18:20:46 AnMaster: check on Wikipedia, which calls it something else but has a redirect 18:20:47 so sorry, that's just bullshit. 18:20:49 hm 18:20:52 ehird: and yes it is, you can't process HTML with CSLT 18:20:55 *XSLT 18:21:08 except you shouldn't process with XSLT, one because it sucks ,and two because it violates postel's law 18:21:23 ais523, I don't do that, but it would be nice to allow 18:21:56 ehird, also the code is made so it would be easy to plug in a wiki-syntax engine 18:22:00 in the page render function 18:22:02 if you wanted 18:22:11 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:22:26 two places only, vcms_page->preview(); and vcms_render->render() 18:22:28 ;P 18:22:51 oh and never touch page id -1 because that means it is some internally generated page, like the login page 18:22:58 but yes quite simple 18:24:51 ehird: do you favour Postel's Law for everything, or only for internet communications? 18:24:59 do you favour it for, say, functions inside a C program? 18:25:15 ais523: It is complicated. 18:25:26 ais523, I don't think so, he claimed he disliked "defensive coding" recetly 18:25:28 recently* 18:25:28 For closed-world things -- e.g., functions inside a C program -- it doesn't apply. 18:25:41 For open-world things -- e.g., the entry point of a C program, or a website -- it applies. 18:25:50 and I tend to agree, though assert() is an exception. 18:25:56 it is for debugging 18:25:57 One is controlled, the other isn't. 18:26:24 AnMaster: I'm currently trying to get a BF interpreter to pass splint strict mode 18:26:32 it requires jumping through all sorts of hoops 18:26:34 ais523, heh 18:26:34 http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/08/postels-law 18:26:35 http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/001025 18:26:37 http://www.b-list.org/weblog/2008/jun/18/html/ 18:26:38 ais523, such as? 18:26:41 Read those (in order.) 18:26:43 I have an auxiliary /function/ guarded by NDEBUG 18:26:58 which checks if argc is larger than a certain value 18:27:02 and takes argv as an argument and ignores it 18:27:22 the function is expressing the fact that argv has argc elements, in a way that splint can understand and verify is correct 18:27:39 I have a few NDBUG guarded funcs in cfunge, dumping functions, "clean up on exist to make valgrind output simpler, even though this could be left to the OS" 18:27:43 and such 18:28:11 ais523, but your sounds strange 18:28:16 ais523, really strange 18:28:20 maybe I should paste it 18:28:25 I would check argc in main() probably 18:28:32 or actually, I would use getopt() 18:28:40 oh, so do I, but Splint didn't notice it there 18:28:43 yes it is POSIX, but I don't care about windows 18:28:45 and I'm not even getting options 18:29:00 I'm trying to persuade Splint that I can read the first command-line arg without buffer overflow 18:29:03 The nice thing about dependently typed languages is that you can statically prevent incorrect data. 18:29:21 the buffer-overflow checks are a bit primitive, you have to jump through loads of hoops to guarantee to it that you're doing things right 18:29:23 ais523, hopefully the OS should leave a \0 at the end of it... 18:29:39 AnMaster: again, it does 18:29:50 but Splint doesn't have a "this is a null-terminated array of strings" annotation 18:30:04 ais523, well paste that function then 18:30:28 ais523, also does it have a "this is a null terminated string?" annotation? 18:30:32 if yes then doing: 18:30:34 e.g., main :: [string] `ofLength` 2 -> io () 18:30:47 then (main a = print a) will fail 18:30:48 char * argv1 = *argv; 18:30:49 would work 18:31:02 and then annotating argv1 18:31:17 strange, my web browser's going slow 18:31:21 also, I don't think so, strange really 18:31:32 because you need to _prove_ to the compiler that you can't pass it non-2 length arrays 18:31:32 or rather 18:31:32 when you call it 18:31:32 you have to prove to the compiler that the array you passed it is of length 2 18:31:35 so in your entry point, you have to check the length of the array 18:31:41 before calling main 18:31:47 ehird, what lang was that? 18:31:51 AnMaster: http://rafb.net/p/sRPjBK56.html is the whole program 18:31:56 AnMaster: a hypothetical Haskell with dependent types 18:31:59 check_argc_argv is the relevant function 18:32:01 ah 18:32:19 dependent types give you immense flexibility and awesome, at the expense of not being able to prove that your compilation will terminate 18:32:30 (because the type system == the normal language, and is therefore TC) 18:32:31 /*@*/ ? 18:32:36 wtf does that do 18:32:39 AnMaster: "This function does not modify any global variables" 18:32:49 assert(argc >= minlength); 18:32:49 /* Splint seems not to know about assert... */ 18:32:49 if (argc < minlength) {abort();} 18:32:58 if it doesn't know, why not remove it? 18:33:08 it does know about assert, just doesn't notice it for some reason 18:33:45 ais523, know what? I would give up on splint instead of doing that 18:33:56 AnMaster: you don't understand, this is an eso project 18:34:03 also the splint project was in practise dead last I checked 18:34:05 I have splint's warning levels /way/ above the typical levels 18:34:10 ais523, ok why? 18:34:14 cfunge is designed to be as fast as possible 18:34:21 this program is designed to be as Splintable as possible 18:34:27 still not perfect, btw 18:34:28 ah right 18:34:30 makes sense 18:34:42 it thinks there are some potentially undefined structure fields, and I have to resort to /*@- on occasion and I don't want to 18:34:43 /\? 18:34:44 i think you could get very far by hooking a dependent types layer onto C 18:34:48 e.g. 18:34:48 as in 18:34:49 AnMaster: and 18:34:50 /*@requires maxRead(argv) == argc 18:34:51 /\ maxSet(tape) >= 100663378 18:34:51 /\ maxRead(tape) >= 100663378;@*/ 18:34:54 ais523, hm ok 18:34:58 strange notation for it 18:35:02 AnMaster: it's from logic 18:35:04 & or && would make more sense 18:35:23 ais523, well the splint devs were making a program checking C source, maybe C notation would have made sense then 18:35:46 also the logic notation is one symbol and not some sort of mini-ascii art of it 18:35:47 don't ask me to make Splint make sense 18:35:56 although Splint has inspired me to write an esolang, btw 18:35:59 void real_main(int argc /**@ == length(array)*/, char **argv /**length(@) == 3 */) 18:36:01 or something 18:36:02 ais523, oh? 18:36:06 and then the layer requires you to prove it in calls 18:36:07 so 18:36:14 which is like C, but impossible to write buggy programs in 18:36:16 is the idea 18:36:20 well, logic bugs still possible 18:36:24 ais523, hm details? 18:36:28 int main(int argc, char **argv) { if (argc != 3) { ...error... } else { real_main(argc, argv); } } 18:36:29 also there are langs like that 18:36:30 but memory leaks and buffer overflows and so on impossible 18:36:35 and since argc == length(argv) 18:36:37 and of course there are 18:36:38 and argc is verified to be 3 18:36:40 the preconditions are met 18:36:41 but the point is, to do it in C 18:36:43 ais523, BitCC and Cyclone may interest you 18:36:44 and the program can compile 18:36:49 so you still have to write the free()s and so on 18:36:50 and bounds checks 18:36:54 both are made to be hard to write buggy things in 18:36:55 the compiler just verifies they're there 18:37:00 and both are C-like 18:37:27 ais523, hah 18:37:42 ais523, could be done as a GCC middle end maybe? 18:37:47 maybe 18:37:48 if such a thing exists 18:37:50 I didn't even know it had middle ends 18:37:59 the problem is that the front end/back end transition is blurry 18:38:00 ais523, note what I said after 18:38:10 there's a chain of back ends, more or less 18:38:11 hm ok 18:38:18 and the various front ends filter into different places in it 18:38:28 even gcc-bf has to interact with the front ends slightly 18:38:28 ais523, where does mudflap in GCC insert it's calls? 18:38:37 to tell them how to send data to the back ends 18:38:41 also, I don't know 18:38:53 ais523, I assume you know what -fmudflap is though? 18:38:57 (gcc-bf has to request varargs calls to be sent a certain way, so it can handle them) 18:39:00 very useful thing 18:39:02 AnMaster: I do, but not how it works 18:39:21 ais523, inserting lots of canary values iirc and checking every read/write access 18:39:27 yes, I mean inside gcc 18:39:30 I don't know what it hooks into 18:39:31 somewhat like valgrind except it can catch some stuff gcc doesn't 18:39:43 err catch some stuff valgrind doesn't 18:39:52 like 2 valid variables after each other 18:40:11 if both are static valgrind can't check that access doesn't pass from one over to the other 18:40:28 yes 18:40:48 mudflap can catch that 18:40:51 of course valgrind finds stuff mudflap doesn't 18:41:32 /*@-retvalint@ We don't care if fputs fails, we can't do anything... */ 18:41:33 wtf 18:41:40 ais523, why not cast each to (void) 18:41:41 instead? 18:42:20 AnMaster: hmm... I wonder if that works 18:42:25 I've been casting to void elsewhere 18:42:32 ais523, also: default: continue; /* a comment */ 18:42:35 but possibly Splint doesn't let you do that for non-printf functions 18:42:39 well is this a C tutorial? 18:42:52 I must have phased out there 18:42:57 no idea what the comment was meant to say 18:43:03 oh, no it is right 18:43:07 line 195 18:43:09 that case catches comments in the input BF 18:43:20 oh ok 18:43:26 Musings on a static analyzer for C: http://pastie.org/352320 18:43:52 let's make something like Splint that actually works 18:43:58 ais523: see http://pastie.org/352320 18:44:01 ais523, and works for C99 18:44:13 ehird: I have 18:44:15 that's very splint-like 18:44:21 yes, but more general 18:44:21 and sane 18:44:23 ais523, and can handle ## in macros 18:44:28 [and compile-time turing complete :DDDDDD] 18:44:52 AnMaster: and trigraphs? 18:44:59 (N.B. I haven't tried to run Splint with trigraphs) 18:44:59 ais523, I don't use them 18:45:04 neither do I normally 18:45:09 ais523, what about digraphs? 18:45:12 besides, you're in C99, you have digraphs now 18:45:12 they exist too iirc 18:45:13 in C 18:45:18 ah that is C99? 18:45:20 hm ok 18:45:26 ais523, I don't use digraphs either 18:45:26 yes, they were added as they're easier to type than trigraphs 18:45:39 oi, people, obsess over my awesome. 18:45:51 AnMaster: they're useful if your character set doesn't have { in 18:46:03 I mean, how else would you type C in such a character set? 18:46:12 ais523, I'm not sure if it does, but I sure hope POSIX requires that 18:46:26 AnMaster: there's a standard for which characters are guaranteed in a character set 18:46:29 { is not one of them 18:46:32 OI :| 18:46:37 which is why C has digraphs 18:46:48 (and formerly trigraphs) 18:46:49 ais523, true, but I think all POSIX systems would have it or? 18:46:55 does POSIX require ASCII/ 18:47:05 ais523, not sure 18:47:41 incidentally, you can take proves further 18:47:42 e.g. 18:47:51 Conforming implementations shall support one or more coded character sets. Each supported 18:47:51 locale shall include the portable character set, which is the set of symbolic names for characters in 18:47:51 Table 6-1. This is used to describe characters within the text of POSIX.1-200x. The first eight | 18:47:51 entries in Table 6-1 are defined in the ISO/IEC 6429: 1992 standard and the rest of the characters | 18:47:51 are defined in the ISO/IEC 10646-1: 2000 standard. 18:47:52 hm 18:47:55 * AnMaster reads the table 18:48:04 void assert_not_empty(char *s) /*@ proves (strlen(s) > 0) */ 18:48:10 also those | are due to this being a "diff from 2001 edition" 18:48:13 that's only useful if you roll your own logic in there though 18:48:14 if you just do 18:48:14 ehird: ok, that's clever 18:48:17 assert(strlen(s) > 0) 18:48:20 then it works anyway 18:48:24 since assert(x) proves x 18:48:33 would strlen be special-cased in the linter? 18:48:36 ehird, the meaning of strlen is built in? 18:48:40 nope 18:48:41 or would it deduce strlen's properties from its source? 18:48:52 well, it'd come with a standard block of definitions 18:48:56 for the c standard library 18:49:03 but you could easily add your own for any function 18:50:05 ais523, {} are in table T-1 18:50:05 err 18:50:05 6-1 18:50:05 so I think this means posix requires that 18:50:05 { LEFT CURLY BRACKET 18:50:05 { LEFT CURLY BRACKET 18:50:05 | VERTICAL LINE 18:50:05 } RIGHT CURLY BRACKET 18:50:05 } RIGHT CURLY BRACKET 18:50:05 wtf? 18:50:11 several names for the same symbol? 18:50:17 ais523: essentially, this system would be an extensible system for writing code checkers 18:50:22 from inside the actual code 18:50:25 yes 18:50:33 with a large base checker built in 18:50:57 i can forsee, e.g., people offering checker files for all sorts of libraries 18:51:04 ais523, yes POSIX.1-2008 at least requires {} 18:51:06 and you just import them and off you go, compile-time verification 18:51:11 I don't have a 2001 copy 18:51:51 i think what i'm saying here, is that i am crazy, and awesome 18:52:34 and yeah 18:52:34 ehird, somewhere in between I think 18:52:51 ehird: yep, pretty much what I was thinking too 18:52:59 does it track memory allocation the same way? 18:53:13 it is a very nice idea ehird 18:53:13 AnMaster: no, void assert_awesome(Person *person) /*@ need (is_crazy(person)); proves (is_awesome(person)) */ 18:53:25 ehird, that is a logic bug 18:53:30 no, that's life 18:53:37 ehird, life isn't boolean 18:53:48 ais523: i'm pretty sure you could write that to be non-core 18:53:57 you'd need to put a property on (*x) 18:54:04 need (valid_memory(x)) 18:54:13 ehird, I think ais523 meant tracking memory leaks 18:54:22 i'm not sure I get what you mean 18:54:23 as in finding missing free 18:54:31 when pointers go out of scope 18:54:33 yes, memory leaks and use after free 18:54:41 what splint's meant to do but doesn't because the annotations are too general 18:55:00 use after free is easy 18:55:11 just add that property to (*x) and define free(x) as proves (!valid_memory(x)) 18:55:12 what about tracking when allocations go out of scope? 18:55:34 AnMaster: like how 18:55:38 ehird, also it need to track when pointers are copied and this one being applied to other copies of that pointer 18:55:54 otherwise it wouldn't detect stuff like: 18:55:55 ehird: int* foo (void) {int a = 4; return &a;} 18:55:56 AnMaster: pointers are copied is just variable assignment 18:55:59 and of course it'd track variable assignment 18:56:01 char* x = y; 18:56:02 that's an error, you should be able to detect it 18:56:04 free(y); 18:56:09 use(*x); 18:56:16 AnMaster: yep, that's variable assignment :P 18:56:20 ais523: ah 18:56:22 ehird: the problem is tracking what's aliasing what 18:56:25 gcc already warns about that, does it not? 18:56:25 ehird, but: 18:56:32 int x = y; 18:56:36 y = 0; 18:56:45 then x is still valid 18:56:50 so you need to treat that specially 18:56:52 AnMaster: no duh 18:56:53 :P 18:56:58 ehird: lots of things do 18:57:02 but that's an obvious case 18:57:03 ehird, yes that = "*" 18:57:18 ais523: right, but you can make gcc make just that an error can't you? 18:57:22 consider {char* a = malloc(20); b = a; free(a);} 18:57:27 gcc won't catch that 18:57:28 i mean, this is really for the sort of non-trivial stuff, like hugely nested frees and such 18:57:32 ehird, gcc is far from perfect 18:57:36 ais523: right, it'll notice b is invalid 18:57:37 but it's the same thing, really 18:57:41 because it contains the same pointer as a 18:57:46 and a is no longer valid_memory 18:57:50 so b isn't, obviously 18:57:51 ehird, all the sort of memleaks that valgrind can detect 18:57:54 yes, that's the sort of tracking that I was talking about 18:57:55 it should try to do 18:58:02 AnMaster: yes, hopefully 18:58:05 now, suppose you have the C-INTERCAL Threading Structure 18:58:14 how do you detect that memory's being freed exactly once there 18:58:16 ais523: i don't want to suppose that :D 18:58:16 ais523, oh no 18:58:26 ehird, I agree, thought it should try to do that 18:58:31 AnMaster: it's the most complex memory structure I know of offhand 18:58:36 it's full of aliases 18:58:40 and other interesting stuff 18:58:42 ais523, I think runtime checking of it is the only sane way 18:58:46 such as valgrind 18:58:50 ais523: remember that it can't just magically infer stuff 18:58:52 of mudflap 18:58:53 if you say a function proves (x) 18:58:54 hmm... for something saner, what about a skiplist? 18:58:57 then it takes your word for it 18:59:02 ugh, no 18:59:08 well, it has to 18:59:11 you should state the proves by hand 18:59:14 um 18:59:15 no duh 18:59:16 but it should verify that it is indeed proven 18:59:19 that's what Splint does 18:59:20 it can't 18:59:22 it can't 18:59:23 ehird, there should be a mode to check what you tell it 18:59:24 that's impossible 18:59:29 that's halting problem impossible 18:59:33 ehird: it's normally possible, though 18:59:36 at least trying to 18:59:39 and what ais523 said 18:59:42 ais523: it's not even worth it 18:59:42 just because it's halting impossible sometimes doesn't mean you can't do it in the general case 18:59:48 *non-general 18:59:57 and then, you just make programs where it can't prove compile errors 18:59:58 the amount of functions you declare as proving things is a small amount compared to other types 19:00:00 that was my idea 19:00:01 and you should check them carefully 19:00:13 as, well, if it can't trust validators to validate, it can't do anything, can it? 19:00:29 *it can't /trust/ anything 19:00:31 it can do a lot 19:00:39 no, it can trust this: 19:00:39 it can trust + to add, for instance 19:00:46 and the control variable of a while to be 0 when it ends 19:00:47 void assert(int x) 19:00:47 /*@ proves (x) */ 19:00:48 { 19:00:50 if (!x) { 19:00:52 /* error out here... */ 19:00:54 } 19:00:55 ais523, yes of course 19:00:56 } 19:00:58 that's one of the rare provers 19:01:00 and it should be effectively foolproof 19:01:02 there's not much room for error there 19:01:03 ais523, unless you use while ++ 19:01:12 as a good rule of thumb, if you can't look at every line and certify that it works correctly 19:01:13 ehird: it can easily deduce that that proves, though 19:01:14 don't make it a prover :P 19:01:17 or some a non-trivial while 19:01:23 you don't need to take the programmer on trust 19:01:27 ais523: really, it's best to use discretion when defining provers. 19:01:32 just don't, in general 19:01:33 ais523: while (str[i] != 0) { ... } 19:01:33 ? 19:01:34 you know exit (or what ever you use) errors out permanently 19:01:35 use assert(), or whatever 19:01:37 make a primitive prover 19:01:38 so the function never ends unless x is true 19:01:38 and use it 19:01:39 actually 19:01:40 and get its assurance 19:01:41 so it does in fact prove 19:01:42 ais523: while (str[i++] != 0) { ... } 19:01:42 even 19:01:51 because that will work much better 19:01:55 and it will edtect when it doesn't really prove it 19:02:00 beacuse it uses an asserted-prover incorrectly 19:02:13 that's the thing, provers should be rare and very carefully written and small 19:02:20 everything else can be inferred on top of them 19:02:24 ehird: what I'm saying is there should be /no provers/ under your definition 19:02:30 ais523: yes, but that's shaky 19:02:32 not just rare and carefully written and small 19:02:33 it's not general 19:02:35 and you could slip up 19:02:38 you can infer everything from the lang itself 19:02:39 very easily 19:02:39 it's very general 19:02:40 no 19:02:41 no slips 19:02:41 you can't 19:02:45 because it's the fucking halting problem 19:02:53 ehird: no, it isn't 19:03:02 no? 19:03:04 look at your assert above, for instance 19:03:08 anyway, you CAN'T even inferr it, ais523 19:03:08 beacuse 19:03:10 you don't know 19:03:12 what it does 19:03:14 on 19:03:16 error 19:03:17 it's very easily to statically prove that x is true if it ever reaches the end of the function 19:03:18 it could print out to the screen 19:03:20 it could set a toaster off 19:03:22 and I'm assuming something like an abort here 19:03:23 it could eat loads of memory on purpose 19:03:25 it could play pacman 19:03:27 ais523: aha, assuming 19:03:31 so now you have a new class 19:03:32 aborters 19:03:39 and you can't handle errors your own way 19:03:40 great 19:03:41 ehird: yes, all static analysers use those AFAIK 19:03:43 and you can 19:03:49 yes, but they shouldn't 19:03:55 because that method is itself verifiable to abort 19:04:04 if it doesn't abort, then the assert isn't actually proving anything 19:04:05 idea: just use haskell, should be way easier to prove 19:04:05 it's far more robust to have a few primitive provers that are carefully checked 19:04:09 and rarely ever declare anything as a prover 19:04:15 ehird: yes, it's called the operators of the language 19:04:15 AnMaster: er, shut up, it's exactly the same for haskell 19:04:17 like while and + 19:04:25 those are your primitives 19:04:27 ais523: have fun solving the halting problem 19:04:30 ehird, excepts the dirty bits are all in monads 19:04:42 AnMaster: stop bullshitting... 19:04:44 ehird: it doesn't need to solve the halting problem, it's a static analyser by definition 19:04:48 it only has to do a finite amount of work 19:04:48 ehird, sorry :P 19:04:59 ehird, I meant nomads of course 19:05:01 it may not be able to prove everything, but if it can't, that's a warning/error 19:05:17 and the programmer should annotate the program defensively so it can 19:05:32 ais523: if you think you can write a program that takes an arbitrary function and verifies whether it actually "proves" (where you don't know how it will handle success/failure of this proof) an arbitrary piece of code boolean condition 19:05:41 for instance, you can get assert to find a counterexample to the Riemann hypothesis if it finds the assertion is false 19:05:43 even though it may use different ways to say the same value than the prof 19:05:44 proof 19:05:46 then you're a crackpot 19:05:52 and I'm not going to continue talking 19:05:53 then, the static analyser will mark that code as buggy, even though it might not be 19:05:55 if you don't believe that 19:05:59 then provers are a better solution 19:06:36 ehird: I think I can write a program that takes an arbitrary function, and a statement about what it's meant to prove, and either deduce (in the 99% of cases that matter in practice) that it does indeed prove that, or be unable to prove it proves that and errors out 19:06:47 go do it 19:06:55 you can't solve the halting problem. But you can write a program in such a way that it can be verified that the program halts 19:06:57 there's a difference 19:07:06 meanwhile i'll spend the extra 5 seconds when writing a program to make sure the provers are correct, after having saved 5 years that it'll take you to write your mythical program 19:07:13 hf 19:07:22 ehird, " then you're a crackpot" <-- just remember he *did* win the wolfram price 19:07:25 ehird: but then, it's theoretically possible that someone could write a buggy program 19:07:29 AnMaster: yep, I'm a crackpot 19:07:32 AnMaster: Argument to authority also makes you a crackpot. 19:07:33 even if he *is* a crackpot as you say, he is a smart one 19:07:34 :P 19:07:53 ais523: there are always buggy programs. 19:07:57 fuck, this checker will have like 500 bugs 19:08:04 the point is mitigation to a reasonable level 19:08:15 [i for i in [1,2,3,4,5] while i<3] i'm sad this doesn't exist in python 19:08:15 and since provers should be rare, you can mitigate their correctness almost 100% 19:08:20 save things like the stdlib failing 19:08:21 oklopol: you can 19:08:24 ehird, same as the difference between eccentric(sp?) and mad 19:08:26 [i for i in [1,2,3,4,5] if i<3] 19:08:34 except not about money 19:08:36 ehird: that's only the same in that case 19:08:55 i meant, you know [i for i in [1,2,3,4,5,4,3,2,1] while i<3] >>> [1,2] 19:09:34 ehird: the thing is, I don't see why on earth you're saying that your assert needs to be marked as a prover, when it's trivially veifiable 19:09:43 it's much easier to verify than most of the nonprover functions out there 19:09:55 you're saying provers should be trivially verifiable. If it's so trivial, why not verify them automatically? 19:09:59 ehird, it should have fewer bugs than qmail 19:10:01 ais523: because assert is a trivial example 19:10:37 and i really don't care what you think is theoretically possible because the difference in the two in practice is neligible except mine invites more careful checking of programs, and takes years less tow rite 19:10:55 AnMaster: isn't qmail very bug-free? 19:10:56 ehird: yours takes longer to write, and checks less of the program 19:11:06 ais523: you're wrong. 19:11:22 ehird, yes it is 19:11:59 ehird, there hasn't been a bug for years iirc, and between 1.0 and now there has been less than 10 bugs iirc 19:12:10 ehird: can you give an example of a complicated prover? 19:12:20 Is qmail licensed yet? 19:12:37 ais523: sure -- think about e.g. KDE/Qt 19:12:38 ehird, public domain since some time iirc 19:12:52 ehird: what would it be proving? 19:12:53 ehird, that would involve proving X first 19:12:53 they almost certainly have bulky assertion functions which do things like report the error to a gui 19:13:01 ais523: who knows? 19:13:02 something. 19:13:08 ehird: yes, but it's trivial to verify that the functions in question exit 19:13:13 rather than returning 19:13:16 exiting is NOT ALWAYS CORRECT 19:13:17 ehird, and yet qmail is one of the most used (the most used?) MTAs out there 19:13:18 you don't even have to analyse the whole function for that 19:13:24 it could change the program to bug reporting mode instead 19:13:27 ehird: do they exit the program, or do they continue it? 19:13:34 ais523: continuing COULD BE CORRECT 19:13:35 if they're changing to bug report mode, your assertion is in fact /false/ 19:13:39 you've proved something false in that case 19:13:45 so your prover is actually buggy 19:13:49 ... no 19:13:50 that's retarded 19:13:58 you've found that somethign is false, and you're handlnig that 19:13:59 ehird, it is theoretically correct 19:14:01 if continuing from an assert when the condition is false is /ever/ correct, it /hasn't proved what it's claiming to prove/ 19:14:14 your definition of prove is completely wrong in the context 19:14:16 a more interesting case is if assert somehow alters the program's state so the condition becomes true 19:14:25 i'm not even talking about it any longer because it's worthless 19:14:26 seems ehird is one of those people who take the halting problem as the end of topic of proving. 19:14:32 no 19:14:35 ehird: using your method, assert(x != NULL); putchar(*x); could segfault 19:14:41 ais523: no, it couldn't 19:14:48 it could pop up a bug reporting window 19:14:51 yes it could, if assert ever returned when x was null 19:14:53 which then exit()s in itself 19:14:55 yes 19:14:59 or 19:15:03 in that case, it's trivial to determine that assert exits 19:15:03 maybe the platform doesn't do exit() 19:15:05 maybe it's embedded 19:15:09 oklopol, oh yes, somewhat like a Godwin's law for TC discussions? 19:15:10 maybe it goes into an infinite loop of flashing a warning light 19:15:14 ehird: yes 19:15:25 anything but a complicated infiniloop is relatively easy to analyse 19:15:27 you can't fucking say that the program exiting is the only way it can handle a false proof 19:15:31 because that is simply WRONG 19:15:41 ehird: no, the only way it can handle it is /failing to continue past that point/ 19:15:48 there are only two ways to do that, exit and infiniloop 19:15:59 and NEITHER HAS TO HAPPEN IN THE ACTUAL FUNCTION 19:16:04 well, exactly 19:16:06 it could happen in a function in a binary blob that it calls 19:16:09 that's what the static analyser is for! 19:16:10 there's no way to prove THAT works 19:16:11 ais523, err 19:16:14 ais523, not correct 19:16:14 you analyse the functions it calls 19:16:21 AnMaster: yes, kinda like tcness is for language discussions 19:16:22 ais523, if another thread alters this thread 19:16:23 ais523: except you can't assert that a function in a binary blob exits 19:16:25 it could return 19:16:29 because it needs to fucking statically analyze the source for that 19:16:31 ais523, ! 19:16:32 beacuse it uses your retarded scheme 19:16:33 ehird: well, those do need annotations as primitives 19:16:39 o ho ho 19:16:40 but then, you're just taking the programmer on trust 19:16:41 ais523, this gets hugely complicated if you use phtreads 19:16:42 so now you have proves as an annotation 19:16:43 which is a bad idea 19:17:09 ehird: yes, but you have to realise that you're sacrificing guaranteed correctness in that situation 19:17:17 ais523, I'm uncertain you could prove anything in fact if the program was threaded 19:17:18 in fact, trusting binary blobs to do anything particular at all is a bad idea 19:17:22 if you want to make sure your program is gine 19:17:32 arguing with you is so pointless, you just continually reassert that you're right immediately after admitting you're wrong 19:17:33 AnMaster: you can, you just need to make assertions about how the threads affect each other 19:17:34 ais523, also I would love to see what splint did on #pragma omp 19:17:50 ais523, #pragma omp is OpenMP btw 19:17:56 much the same way as you annotate how you affect global variables in SPlint 19:17:57 i didn't really read much of this, anyone feel like quickly explaining what the argument is about? 19:18:16 oklopol, writing a static analyzer for a C like language that could verify the program 19:18:16 and what's the topic 19:18:17 oklopol: ehird's arguing that a static analyser should take the programmer on trust for things rather than verifying them itself 19:18:22 ... 19:18:25 shut up 19:18:27 that's not what i fucking said 19:18:35 ais523: that's what i thought he meant 19:18:37 I'm arguing that a static analyser should in all cases possible determine things for itself 19:18:41 oklopol, want some popcorn? 19:18:45 ehird: yes it is 19:18:45 this is interesting 19:18:53 AnMaster: I'm popping some! 19:18:55 please give an example of how that isn't your viewpoint 19:18:58 AnMaster: not yet, i want context before i start watching :P 19:19:00 GregorR, great! 19:19:01 REOWR HISS 19:19:06 GregorR, hm? 19:19:10 that's true IFF every function in every program is a prover. 19:19:16 whereas barely any are. 19:19:16 AnMaster: I'm watching a cat fight :P 19:19:21 and furthermore, this is tiring. goodbye. 19:19:22 -!- ehird has left (?). 19:19:24 what's a prover? 19:19:28 ehird: there is no difference between provers and nonprovers 19:19:28 damn he left 19:19:28 Awwww 19:19:31 ouch 19:19:33 oklopol: an idea invented by ehird 19:19:35 * GregorR turns off his popper. 19:19:47 basically it's a function that the programmer asserts does something 19:19:54 special functions that can assert things the compiler then takes on trues? 19:20:01 and the static analyser takes the programmer at their word 19:20:02 rather than checking that it actually does that 19:20:04 ais523: right. that's an assert 19:20:07 assert ...; 19:20:12 yes, assert was the example we were mostly using 19:20:17 it's just an assert that doesn't actually fail. 19:20:25 it just helps the proves 19:20:29 *prover 19:20:33 I was arguing that it's better and more robust to get the compiler to look in the source of assert to make sure it actually does what it's supposed to dp 19:20:35 *do 19:20:52 ais523, well for assert() that is simple 19:20:57 after all, ehird's idea was that provers should be so simple that they can be checked by hand to unambiguously make sure they always work 19:20:57 it goes something like this: 19:21:01 AnMaster: I know 19:21:12 no need to argue this point with me, I'm on the same side as you I think 19:21:22 /usr/include/gentoo-multilib/amd64/assert.h:extern void __assert (const char *__assertion, const char *__file, int __line) 19:21:23 nice 19:21:26 well, if provers are so simple, just analyse them yourself like the rest of things 19:21:27 didn't exepect that 19:21:30 ais523: and what would their point be? 19:21:44 oklopol: ehird had to resort to things like binary blobs which couldn't be statically checked 19:21:49 or mentioining the halting problem 19:21:50 that the programmers would more easily believe the programmer is correct? 19:21:51 # define assert(expr) \ 19:21:51 ((expr) \ 19:21:51 ? __ASSERT_VOID_CAST (0) \ 19:21:51 : __assert_fail (__STRING(expr), __FILE__, __LINE__, __ASSERT_FUNCTION)) 19:21:54 ais523, ^ 19:21:59 that is assert on my system 19:22:05 i mean, that's what modularity and asserts are for 19:22:20 and that whole idea is equivalent to the assert statement found in all languages 19:22:25 ais523, can you prove it? I think it ends up calling a compiler built in 19:22:25 oklopol: ehird thought it was impractical/impossible to verify that all provers worked statically 19:22:39 AnMaster: you need to know what compiler builtins do to be able to analyse them, ofc 19:22:45 except in a round-about fashion that i don't really see a use for. 19:22:47 ais523, right 19:22:47 there is a bottom level of provers as ehird calls them, obviously 19:22:56 but they shouldn't be programmer-written functions 19:23:02 ais523, a few standard C ones? 19:23:07 would make sense 19:23:08 they should be the primitives of the language, the operators, commands, functions and builtins 19:23:15 you can either do it on libc 19:23:19 or just look in the source of libc 19:23:34 for instance, you can run through the source of newlib and determine that assert doesn't always assert 19:23:40 ais523, gcc uses builtins for lots of things 19:23:43 because it raises a SIGABRT, which might be masked 19:23:49 ais523: you could do that when proving something trivial that's hard to prove in the language of the prover 19:23:52 AnMaster: this isn't really relevant... 19:23:56 oklopol: yes 19:23:59 assuming you're using a system where you can help the prover 19:24:01 except I don't see this situation coming up 19:24:08 ais523, also I believe assert() raises sigabort on glibc too 19:24:13 ais523, since it drops you into gdb 19:24:15 AnMaster: it does on all POSIX systems by default 19:24:21 right 19:24:21 ais523: proofs tend to get three times bigger when you get technical 19:24:25 which means it's actually kind-of useless for asserting 19:24:49 i'm assuming there would be automatic proving too? 19:24:52 maybe that's why Splint was complaining about my asserts! 19:24:56 oklopol: yes, that's the whole point 19:25:02 ais523, unless you prove SIGABRT isn't masked 19:25:03 yeah, that's why i assumed it 19:25:07 AnMaster: ah, yes, ofc 19:25:13 Splint isn't that sophisticated 19:25:17 a good static analyser would be though 19:25:18 well i agree with ehird, that would be helpful 19:25:28 ais523, you could see if there is any call to signal() or sigaction() involving sigabrt 19:25:31 although probably for a different reason than him 19:25:35 AnMaster: yes I know 19:25:37 for example cfunge only masks sigpipe 19:25:40 oklopol: what in particualr are you agreeing with? 19:25:41 i'm thinking it would be useful for the trivial things, not the complicated ones. 19:25:49 ais523: that they would be useful 19:26:05 that you could tell the prover about a high-level idea 19:26:05 oklopol: what sort of trivial things are you thinking of which couldn't just be static-analysed like the rest of the code? 19:26:09 ais523, what would you do if the program used alarm() then everything is suddenly a timing issue 19:26:23 AnMaster: bail out if you couldn't prove for certain that it worked 19:26:39 ais523, well cfunge uses alarm() in fuzz testing builds 19:26:41 ais523: probably something that's intuitively clear, but the prover just happens not to get right, and you don't feel like explaining it to it 19:26:45 I mean, you could write a program where on a failed assert it searched for a counterexample to the Riemann Hypothesis, then kept on going 19:26:48 ais523, to run for a limited time 19:26:56 oklopol: I'd call that a bug in the linter 19:27:17 that's the sort of example that the linter couldn't prove correct 19:27:25 but people don't do that in practice, and IMO shouldn't use it in maintainable code 19:27:31 ais523, also you do need to trust the compiler to not have bugs in code generation 19:27:36 AnMaster: yes 19:27:37 like what + - and so on does 19:27:49 the idea is to avoid bugs in the original source code 19:28:01 bugs in the linter or in the compiler can still cause buggy output, of course 19:28:01 ais523, and you couldn't just run it on the compiler to see if it found issues 19:28:02 because 19:28:04 ais523: i'm not saying there's any use with a good prover 19:28:14 i just don't know how good provers are. 19:28:17 1) You could have a buggy build of the linter 19:28:28 2) you could have logic bugs causing such issues in the compiler 19:28:38 oklopol: not very good atm, but the whole idea was a project to build a good one 19:28:58 and we got sidetracked over the issue of where the primitives should be 19:29:10 ais523, well you got any idea how? 19:29:10 I certainly don't 19:29:10 i mean some intuitively clear graph algorithms, even something as simple as dijkstra, aren't trivial to prove 19:29:25 well dijkstra is trivial to prove for a human, but an actual proof is pretty long 19:29:37 oklopol, hm? 19:29:41 oklopol, what? 19:29:48 oklopol, that things are harmful? 19:29:49 !? 19:29:53 oklopol: proving that it works, you mean? 19:29:54 what has that got to do with it 19:30:01 ais523: yes 19:30:03 my point is 19:30:11 my vision is that you'd include a proof that it always returns the best answer 19:30:16 you might want to, even if your prover can't prove that part, to be sure about the parts it can prove 19:30:17 a machine-readable one, in C 19:30:31 and yes, a proves_unsafe pragma would be helpful during development 19:30:43 but if I'm using such a superlinter as this, I wouldn't want any in a production build 19:30:48 ais523: yes, that's better, i'm just saying you might want to be able to skip some of the proof, for instance to be able to try it out 19:30:52 (or, you could just do expected-error instead) 19:30:54 ais523, also there will be programs where it would be useful to prove parts of the code even if you can never prove it all 19:31:11 assuming you couldn't compile a program that hasn't been proven to be correct or something 19:31:18 ais523, for example you can't prove X ever since it depends hugely on agp card bugs 19:31:19 and such 19:31:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("Bus"). 19:31:50 but yes, of course, in the end, the proof should be given to the prover as steps in whatever system it uses for deduction itsel 19:31:51 f 19:32:04 oklopol, yes 19:32:25 ais523, if you can write this linter it would rock 19:32:28 and i think ehird fails to realize most of the "intuitively clear" things you'd end up telling the prover like by trust, are exactly things that are trivial to prove in its own language 19:32:33 but I certainly know I couldn't help you 19:32:37 I don't know how simply 19:32:37 oklopol: that was my main point 19:32:46 anyway, it seems assert crashes the program even if SIGABRT is masked 19:32:55 according to man assert, it unmasks SIGABRT first 19:32:58 *man abort 19:33:08 ais523, hm 19:33:18 well, unblocks 19:33:23 If the SIGABRT signal is ignored, or caught by a handler that returns, the abort() function will still terminate the process. It does 19:33:24 this by restoring the default disposition for SIGABRT and then raising the signal for a second time. 19:33:24 you can longjmp out of a signal handler 19:33:25 what? 19:33:31 ah no 19:33:35 ais523, indeed you can 19:33:50 if you don't longjmp out, though, it ensures that the code nevertheless terminates 19:34:04 now, this is the sort of thing it would be great to have an automatic verifier for 19:34:12 assert isn't nearly as simple as I thought it was 19:34:26 ais523, one issue, consider the infiniloop way of exiting you mentioned 19:34:26 ais523: well, i agreed with you all along, but i still also agree with ehird's idea's possible usefulness, although for just getting the prover to skip some unproven part for now. 19:34:30 and really I wasn't confident that assert(0) always exits, but I am now 19:34:33 ais523, what if there are other threads 19:34:43 and they modify the first threads program memory 19:34:45 AnMaster: they'd need pointers into the program to change stuff in it 19:34:45 to jump out 19:34:54 ais523, sure, what about proving a jit compiler! 19:35:03 heh, that would be fun 19:35:13 we can certainly prove that it jumps into memory it's just modified 19:35:18 but not really what's happened from there 19:35:25 ais523, indeed 19:35:27 but at least we'd know there was something we couldn't handle 19:35:30 ais523, and if it is multi-threaded 19:35:34 ... 19:35:36 multithreading isn't so bad 19:35:45 as you can analyse which threads can access what in which other threads 19:35:56 but still the variable execution times between the threads is still a pain 19:35:58 ais523, if you believe the valgrind docs: they are 19:36:05 valgrind does handle it 19:36:11 apart from condition variables 19:36:17 that's an issue for the wider linter though, not for the recent me/ehird argument 19:36:25 ais523, indeed 19:36:34 AnMaster: by the way, you have a tendency of focusing on points on the wrong level during these debates 19:36:51 yes, i actually was about to point that out too 19:36:55 it gets annoying sometimes when you're focusing on a corner case that isn't part of the main debate, for instance 19:37:04 and not even the program we're originally planning to write 19:37:06 -!- ehird has joined. 19:37:20 but i'm assuming that's at least partly on purpose 19:37:28 ais523, true 19:37:37 oklopol, not fully 19:37:41 11:32:25 ais523, if you can write this linter it would rock <-- I see i'm getting all the credit for, you know, actually formulating this thing. 19:37:50 ehird: you weren't in-channel 19:37:56 and we both had similar ideas for it independently 19:38:00 yes 19:38:05 interesting, I cease to exist when I leave. 19:38:06 -!- ehird has left (?). 19:38:12 who was that? 19:38:14 :D 19:38:27 oklopol, wrong, you should have said "who was who?" 19:38:31 :/ 19:38:38 * oklopol is pretty sure ehird is getting younger as time goes by :D 19:38:48 oklopol, who? 19:39:19 AnMaster: a guy i once knew 19:39:23 like a few minutes ago 19:39:34 what? 19:39:37 but he's gone now 19:39:42 who? 19:39:50 AnMaster: you can drop the joke now 19:39:57 what joke? 19:39:58 ;P 19:40:01 ais523, right 19:40:02 ais523: stop being an ehird :D 19:40:14 oklopol, stop being an what? 19:40:15 ;P 19:40:28 a what* 19:40:48 anyway 19:41:32 ais523, the prover the way you plan it sounds cool, but I think there needs to be some kind of override mechanism when the program can't prove something but a human can verify easily 19:41:43 AnMaster: yes 19:41:43 I don't know what it would look like 19:41:50 expected warnings, I think, just like in every other linter ever 19:41:59 you tell it "don't complain about this, I know you think it's wrong" 19:42:08 and it shuts up 19:42:08 ais523, that sounds ok 19:42:28 ais523, unless this means it doesn't know if other memory is invalid any more 19:42:29 or such 19:42:56 AnMaster: well, my idea is pretty similar to ehird's, in that you can tell it "this function is meant to prove that strlen(x) >= 5", for instance 19:43:04 ais523, just consider for example that memory pool system I wrote, I was unable to express with valgrind annotations if the memory was valid or not 19:43:06 if it can't prove that, that's a warning 19:43:10 but it can assume it elsewhere 19:43:20 and I didn't even know there was such a thing as valgrind annotations 19:43:23 ais523, due to it being used internally in the allocator as a linked list of blocks after freeing 19:43:45 so memory was legally accessed as something else after the allocator_free() call 19:43:53 ais523: so like an assert? 19:43:56 basically all memory blocks were like this: 19:43:57 AnMaster: ah, you weren't using malloc/free? 19:44:01 oklopol: yes, pretty much 19:44:09 in fact, just adding assert statements would be a good solution to that 19:44:16 i mean isn't it exactly that, except that you don't specify what happens when the expression is false 19:44:20 yes 19:44:28 ais523, union memblock { union memblock *nextfree; struct datatype; } 19:44:34 ais523, I said mem pool 19:44:42 because you except it to be true even more than with an assert, in a way. 19:44:44 ais523, it allocated from a pool and returned to a free list 19:44:44 in actual code, that is a good place to put an actual assert statement though 19:44:52 ais523, single linked free list 19:45:00 well, nm my last comment 19:45:01 I generally don't put in assert statements if I ever expect them to be triggered 19:45:08 if an assertion is false, it's a bug in the program 19:45:12 and you can NDEBUG them out anyway 19:45:18 ais523, thus the memory is to be considered "inaccessible" outside the allocator functions but "accessible" inside it 19:45:21 ais523, ^ 19:45:29 could you express that? 19:45:29 AnMaster: ok 19:45:34 ais523: ndebug? 19:45:42 oklopol, ifndef NDEBUG 19:45:47 oklopol: #define NDEBUG turns off all the assert statements in the program 19:45:57 oh you meant like that. 19:45:57 and other assert-like code is normally conditioned on NDEBUG by hand 19:46:05 i thought you meant you can autoprove them out :D 19:46:11 and i was like k. 19:46:12 -!- ehird has joined. 19:46:24 oklopol: that would be good, warning if you can't prove an assert statement always has a true assertion 19:46:39 ais523, so could you handle that memory accessibility definition? even valgrind can't 19:46:43 that's a different kind of proving, it's "proving this program won't abort out with an assertion" rather than "proving this program won't work" 19:46:47 11:42:56 AnMaster: well, my idea is pretty similar to ehird's, in that you can tell it "this function is meant to prove that strlen(x) >= 5", for instance 19:46:51 you win the completely missing the point award 19:46:55 void atleast5(char *s) { assert(strlen(s) >= 5); } 19:46:57 that works 19:47:01 but assert itself has to be tagged proves 19:47:03 because it's a primitive 19:47:13 ehird: my argument is you're putting the primitives on the wrong level 19:47:23 for instance, does assert always exit? 19:47:23 yes, you're wrong though. 19:47:25 in POSIX? 19:47:30 that is irrelevant. 19:47:34 no, it definitely isn't 19:47:44 sorry, 'tis. 19:47:44 -!- ehird has left (?). 19:47:45 I don't know all the details of the system library 19:47:46 I had to look it up just now 19:48:02 why would it be irrelevant? 19:48:12 to me it sounds highly relevant 19:48:17 because ehird wants the programmer to arbitrarily declare it irrelevant 19:48:30 I'm arguing that they shouldn't have to, and that way is likely to lead to buggier code 19:48:37 as it's definitely relevant in the bigger scheme of things 19:50:03 -!- ehird has joined. 19:50:18 ais523: hmm. i think you'd need two different asserts, ones that specify what you want it to do, ones that specify what you know it does 19:50:48 readers are advised to not trust any results of ais523's mind-reading ability, as it has never been shown to be correct. 19:50:49 -!- ehird has left (?). 19:51:02 hmm... joining, making a few comments than parting before anyone can reply 19:51:08 wasn't someone doing that yesterday? 19:51:14 well you can reply, he's just making a statement 19:51:21 yes, I know 19:51:28 and also reading the logs, clearly 19:51:31 but yeah, i get your reference 19:51:34 which rather misses the point of parting the channel 19:51:36 and i agree with it 19:51:54 as for your two asserts thing, I'm not quite sure I know what you mean 19:52:00 well. 19:52:13 ones that say "this is true, assume it in your proofs" 19:52:21 and ones that say "this must be true" 19:52:25 "check that it is" 19:52:29 well, assert() is the second sort 19:52:40 i mean, you have to have some way to tell the program what you want it to do, obviously 19:52:42 because it bails out if the statement is in fact false, thus forcing it true if the program continues 19:53:07 the first sort is what ehird wanted all primitives to be 19:53:15 and the question is: what to do if it is in fact false? 19:53:20 -!- decipher has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:53:20 -!- rodgort has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:53:21 -!- psygnisfive has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:53:23 -!- Dewi has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:53:23 -!- flexo has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:53:25 -!- Badger has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:53:25 -!- AnMaster has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:53:26 -!- Slereah2 has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:53:26 -!- Vendan has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:53:26 -!- Asztal has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:53:26 -!- sebbu2 has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:53:28 -!- GregorR has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:53:30 -!- lament has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:53:31 -!- mtve has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:53:31 -!- SimonRC has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:53:33 if that's a programmer bug if it's false, you may as well use the second sort of assert 19:53:33 but the first one would be for skipping proofs of trivialities you don't feel like translating into the language of the prover, the thing you call ehird's idea, even though i guess he says it's not 19:53:39 as otherwise you're just going to have a mysterious crash later on 19:54:13 * ais523 points and laughs at christel 19:54:33 although it's not all that bad a netsplit 19:54:49 ais523: well this is what you and ehird were arguing about (i think), i just just now realized they are both asserts, in a way, just different 19:54:50 oklopol: well, the whole point is that the prover language == the language you're writing in 19:55:01 ais523: ohhhh 19:55:05 that i didn't know 19:55:06 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 19:55:06 -!- Vendan has joined. 19:55:06 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 19:55:06 -!- decipher has joined. 19:55:06 -!- rodgort has joined. 19:55:06 -!- GregorR has joined. 19:55:06 -!- Dewi has joined. 19:55:06 -!- flexo has joined. 19:55:06 -!- Badger has joined. 19:55:06 -!- AnMaster has joined. 19:55:06 -!- Asztal has joined. 19:55:06 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:55:06 -!- SimonRC has joined. 19:55:06 -!- lament has joined. 19:55:06 -!- mtve has joined. 19:55:09 thus there's no need to translate, unless you have a triviality that can't easily be asserted in C 19:55:10 lol that changes everything 19:55:28 then of course just the second kind is needed 19:55:31 and or whatever lang 19:55:33 and ehird's idea has nothing to do with it 19:56:10 also the netsplit report came after everyone had already rejoined 19:56:18 oklopol: lag my end 19:57:36 wait wait 19:57:55 actually of course it doesn't make ehird's idea irrelevant, i somewhat misunderstood 19:58:10 no, it doesn't; I just think ehird's putting the primitives at the wrong level 19:58:17 it's a minor argument really which blew up somehow 19:58:32 well if he thinks all proofs should have primitives with the programmer asserting something 19:58:40 back 19:58:46 then he if obviously wrong 19:59:21 I agree with the idea of only using a few well-checked primitives; but I think they should be the language's primitives themselves, not some layer the programmer puts on top of things 19:59:43 AnMaster: what do you think of bfrle.c, by the way? It's a BF interp designed specifically to debug gcc-bf 19:59:46 ais523: well those are really two different ideas 20:00:10 well. 20:00:14 ais523, link? 20:00:15 they are different ideas, but I think they should be the same operators/commands/functions/whatever to reduce the chance of error 20:00:20 AnMaster: http://rafb.net/p/sRPjBK56.html 20:00:32 same one as before, just a different context for linking 20:00:44 it's not quite ESO-standard brainfuck 20:00:56 partly because ESO still hasn't started, and partly because it gives special meanings to % and * 20:01:03 % and * ? 20:01:08 what on earth do they do? 20:01:09 * because run-length-encoded BF is so much shorter 20:01:15 +*6 is equivalent to ++++++ 20:01:22 ah 20:01:26 and % followed by a number means "assert the pointer is here" 20:01:36 so %80 means that the pointer should be on the 80th cell 20:01:41 hm 20:01:42 how's that useful? 20:01:43 not sure offhand if it's 0-based or 1-based 20:01:52 oklopol: to prevent mysterious crashes later 20:02:06 if the pointer isn't where it thinks it is, it's basically UB 20:02:09 which makes it hard to debug 20:02:39 the pointer not being where it thinks it is means there's a bug somewhere, at that point it dumps tape so I can debug what caused it 20:03:01 ais523, what about proving for programs like cfunge, what could you prove about it? 20:03:09 AnMaster: you could prove the state of globals 20:03:16 and that you neve read past the null terminator of a string 20:03:20 *never 20:03:24 and that you didn't overflow any buffers 20:03:36 ais523, the former totally depends on what the befunge program does 20:03:42 AnMaster: not all globals 20:03:50 ais523, true, a few are set at load time 20:03:56 but I mean, you could prove that whenever you tried to read the fungespace it had been allocated 20:04:01 ais523, however I had them overwritten once 20:04:05 due to an indexing errors 20:04:22 a static array overflowed a lot and wrote in another static variable 20:04:23 well, ideally a linter would detect that your program could potentially overwrite the wrong global 20:04:38 or something as simple as accessing element -1 of an array 20:04:44 only with mudflap did I detect it 20:04:47 hmm... this might be a good time to use some of the stranger features of C pointers 20:05:01 ais523, also it was a hard to prove case 20:05:02 for instance, if a is an array then even calculating a-1 is UB 20:05:13 ais523, and it was after, not before 20:05:18 AnMaster: well, I'm not really going for practicality here, but for idealism 20:05:24 ais523, true 20:05:38 also: what about VLA? 20:05:44 they are sure to mess up proving 20:05:45 AnMaster: that's much the same as malloc 20:05:48 I don't use VLA 20:05:49 and not at all 20:05:59 ais523, I *do* use flexible array members 20:06:01 VLAs are slightly easier to lint than the equivalent malloc/free pair 20:06:07 because you know they aren't there when they go out of scope 20:06:17 as in struct with a variable size last element 20:06:21 ais523: okay yeah i see how it's useful 20:06:23 wasn't thinking 20:06:28 ais523, and which is resized in chunks 20:06:35 i haven't been thinking much today 20:06:46 and only shrunk if the difference is too large 20:06:51 AnMaster: well, it could prove that the allocated size was always equal to the size the struct said it was 20:07:04 anyway, I have to go home, it's been an interesting conversation but I have to have dinner sometime 20:07:06 ais523, it isn't because of the flexible struct member... 20:07:18 AnMaster: I was giving an example of what a linter could prove 20:07:32 bye everyone, anyway 20:07:35 ais523, so how would you be able to track what flexible struct member indexes are valid 20:07:36 oh well 20:07:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 20:07:59 dang. i was just about to need him. 20:08:17 also the reason I use flexible struct members instead of a linked list is cache locality (ehird will love that) 20:08:18 ;P 20:08:30 yes it did impact performance 20:08:37 what are flexible struct members? 20:08:53 -!- Corun has joined. 20:08:59 oklopol, you know what struct mystruct { int foo; int bar }; is? 20:09:01 well 20:09:11 AnMaster: i know c/c++ 20:09:14 oklopol, struct mystruct { int foo; int bar; int someints[] }; 20:09:16 C99 20:09:21 oh 20:09:28 oklopol, it allows the last member to be variable size 20:09:30 you specify at allocation? 20:09:38 well yeah, makes sense they'd allow that 20:09:44 oklopol, malloc(sizeof(mystruct) + whatever) 20:09:53 ah. 20:09:55 right right 20:10:04 what about mystruct x; 20:10:07 and then you can access it as mystructvariable->someints[4] 20:10:10 or whatever 20:10:20 oklopol, I don't know, don't think it is legal 20:10:24 AnMaster: well you could just do someints[0] and have that same behavior. 20:10:35 oklopol, err 0 isn't valid there 20:10:36 or rather 20:10:39 GCC allows it 20:10:39 1 then. 20:10:44 but not valid C89 20:11:00 i thought they allowed it at some point, but may have been c++, or just my imag 20:11:03 oklopol, some compilers might complain that is out of valid range 20:11:16 AnMaster: i guess. 20:11:42 they *should* allow that for locals 20:12:08 oklopol, eh? 20:12:16 i mean how hard is it to compute how much to move the stack pointer at runtime 20:12:36 AnMaster: that you could do mystruct x WITHLASTSIZE 100; 20:12:38 16 As a special case, the last element of a structure with more than one named member may 20:12:38 have an incomplete array type; this is called a flexible array member. In most situations, 20:12:38 the flexible array member is ignored. In particular, the size of the structure is as if the 20:12:38 flexible array member were omitted except that it may have more trailing padding than the omission would imply. 20:12:47 WITHLASTSIZE being a keyword 20:13:05 oklopol, GCC extension: alloca 20:13:18 oklopol, also there is variable size array 20:13:23 which is variable sized array on stack 20:13:24 like 20:13:41 -!- MizardX has joined. 20:13:51 int foo(int x) { int array[x]; } 20:13:58 not very useful function 20:14:13 oklopol, also I prefer to avoid that, larger risk for stack overflow 20:14:22 and most automated tools can't protect that 20:14:29 like stack smashing protection 20:14:37 well us real programmers don't use tools : D 20:15:03 oklopol, stack smash protection means that the compiler inserts special values on the stack and verify them on return 20:15:07 if they were overwritten... 20:17:00 oklopol: 20:17:02 EXAMPLE After the declaration: 20:17:02 struct s { int n; double d[]; }; 20:17:02 the structure struct s has a flexible array member d. A typical way to use this is: 20:17:02 int m = /* some value */; 20:17:02 struct s *p = malloc(sizeof (struct s) + sizeof (double [m])); 20:17:03 and assuming that the call to malloc succeeds, the object pointed to by p behaves, for most purposes, as if 20:17:06 p had been declared as: 20:17:08 struct { int n; double d[m]; } *p; 20:17:10 (there are circumstances in which this equivalence is broken; in particular, the offsets of member d might 20:17:15 not be the same). 20:17:17 from C99 specs 20:17:29 and: 20:17:31 struct s t1 = { 0 }; // valid 20:17:32 struct s t2 = { 1, { 4.2 }}; // invalid 20:17:32 t1.n = 4; // valid 20:17:32 t1.d[0] = 4.2; // might be undefined behavior 20:18:11 The initialization of t2 is invalid (and violates a constraint) because struct s is treated as if it did not 20:18:11 contain member d. The assignment to t1.d[0] is probably undefined behavior, but it is possible that 20:18:11 sizeof (struct s) >= offsetof(struct s, d) + sizeof (double) 20:18:11 in which case the assignment would be legitimate. Nevertheless, it cannot appear in strictly conforming 20:18:11 code. 20:18:25 oklopol, does that answer the issue of such structs on stack? 20:22:00 -!- moozilla has joined. 20:24:31 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:24:33 -!- moozilla has joined. 20:27:55 AnMaster: well all that was new was you could declare them as locals, and the array was by default empty. 20:28:06 which i don't consider that relevant a detail 20:31:49 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 20:39:41 -!- metazilla has joined. 20:39:43 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:39:51 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 20:42:00 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:42:03 -!- moozilla has joined. 20:46:35 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:59:33 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:06:38 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 21:21:47 -!- Corun has joined. 21:21:58 -!- ehird has joined. 22:22:27 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:25:58 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 22:26:03 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:26:06 -!- seveninchbread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 22:32:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:36:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:41:19 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:14:17 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:23:45 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 2009-01-05: 00:17:41 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:26:42 oh i love youtube commenters, somehow ended up watching videos of bush fucking up in his speeches, i love how the comments are rated based on amount of hate for bush 00:26:44 the conspiracy is that bush is destroying our country that is our lives dumb ass thats cuz you are too ignorant to realize bush had everything to do with 911 theres too much proof and dumb asses like you are why he is in office again 00:26:52 this has a few thousands ups 00:27:02 honestly, who the hell cares? he was telling a story for dramatic effect. the point of the story is that he found out a plane hit the tower and thought it was an accident at first. 00:27:07 this has a few hundred downs 00:27:41 hmm. 00:28:02 i should probably try sleeping or something 00:28:16 or read sicp and rwh *at the same time* 00:30:16 oklopol: oklopolokok 00:30:25 t) 00:30:25 00:25 .msg NickServ identify inaktive/00 00:30:27 00:26 holmak has left () 00:33:51 oklopol: oklopol: oklopol: oklopol: oklopol: oklopol: oklopol: oklopol: oklopol: oklopol: 00:34:56 did he FAIL? 00:37:17 oklopol: 00:37:32 ehird: ehird: ehird: 00:37:35 oklopol: 00:37:41 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 00:37:51 oklopol: öööö 00:38:32 oerjan: please use real characters. 00:38:37 SLEEP. 00:38:37 -> 00:39:02 oklopol: NO 00:39:08 * oerjan did not expect that from a finn 00:39:58 IF I HAD A GOOD COUNTER-RESPONSE TO WHATEVER YOU JUST SAID I'D PROBABLY SAY IT RIGHT ABOUT NOW 00:40:15 ^ applies to both of you 00:40:21 oklopol: 00:40:23 stay back 00:40:27 BACK? 00:40:36 ehird has a trout 00:40:43 oklopol: yes 00:40:51 he's armed and crazy 00:50:04 ehird, that is. no idea about the trout. 01:34:52 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:42:28 -!- mbishop has joined. 01:42:54 Does anyone know if Ian Osgood comes in this channel? 01:43:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:55:51 hm who was that 01:56:51 hm hasn't been on the wiki for nearly a year 01:59:25 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:08:46 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 02:19:09 oooooooooooooooooooooooo 02:19:29 oerjan: who was who? 02:22:12 Ian Osgood 02:23:21 "was" sounded weird 02:23:57 so i thought you might've somehow thought sgeo's joining aws mbishop's parting. in which case i could've punned you 02:24:05 *saw 02:24:29 You cannot pun if you cannot spell, oklopol. 02:24:33 of course, not really punned, more like joked, but it doesn't fit as well. 02:24:41 jokerized 02:24:58 should probably go to sleep 02:25:08 i really went to sleep when i told i was gonna 02:25:15 sleep is good, if you can afford it 02:25:26 but then i realized i'd been somewhat depressed over the last few days 02:25:29 which is for noobs 02:25:33 so i decided to stop it 02:25:41 and, well, couldn't really not code my project after that. 02:25:56 but it's finished now, because i'm awesome 02:26:02 and god i'm tired 02:26:04 you know 02:26:06 so tired 02:26:27 there aren't enough o's in the world for the elongated "so" to represent it. 02:27:26 being tired is hard to noob-filter out, because i'm usually too tired to do that, for some reason 02:27:34 heh 02:27:56 well. enough random flumber-spatter, sleepy time, really 02:28:05 sweet dreams 02:28:08 i mean polarization-exists really 02:28:17 yes. 02:28:25 sweet of so sweet mmm 02:28:25 -> 02:28:35 we did experiments in high school, it existed then at least. 02:44:15 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 02:52:15 i wasn't born yet when you went to high school, therefore nothing can have existed. 02:52:40 wait. i was like 10 when you went to highschool. 02:52:45 *high school 02:52:51 how's that possible 02:53:01 * oklopol calculates 02:53:08 * oklopol tries to sleep again -> 02:53:45 off by 10 error, i presume 02:54:33 in any case, that was 20 years ago 03:36:10 -!- moozilla has joined. 04:10:50 -!- moozilla has quit (Connection timed out). 04:14:11 I was like 10 when I went to high school. 04:14:14 Or something like that, anyway. 05:32:08 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good nigth"). 06:09:25 Why does the wiki has that weird 24 years ban? 06:23:34 urgh 06:23:57 so i know there's a way to calculate floor(log_2(x)) of an int 06:24:09 with bitwise functions in constant time 06:37:00 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 06:37:23 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Nick collision from services.). 06:37:43 -!- seveninchbread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 06:46:35 -!- mbishop has left (?). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:42:50 oerjan: then i guess i was just about to be born when you did that experiment 08:43:09 thus may well be possible polarization was actually created in that experiment. 08:45:29 bsmntbombdood: there is, if you know the amount of bits :P 08:45:57 even logtime one, can't see a constant time solution 08:48:41 o.o 08:48:57 What is unfun is that even though there's a ffs(x) function in POSIX to find the index of the least-significant set bit -- which GCC has a built-in-usually-compiled-to-the-single-native-opcode-if-there-is-one for -- the corresponding "find the index of the most-significant set bit" is missing. 08:51:51 ffs? 08:51:56 oh. 08:52:37 Probably from the words "Find First Set" instead of the more common FFS meaning. 08:53:02 well it's not like anyone gives a shit about stuff like that, i mean, you know, you could just make a bitarray object and loop. 08:53:11 i mean 08:53:57 i don't 08:54:25 It's still unsymmetric to only have a "ffs" without a "fls". 08:54:41 well yes, naturally 08:55:03 http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=61405 has a rather magical ffs implementation, also. 08:55:05 but there's no rot in most isas, so it's nontrivial to get one out of the other 08:55:35 thus it might be possible, maybe, possibly, for ffs to be more common in isas, and thus existant in that standardum 08:56:54 hmm. i don't get that, can't you get constant time anyway if you allow an array? 08:58:09 wait. 08:58:11 lol. 08:58:19 that's exactly the way to do that 08:58:32 yay for my fast brain \o/ 08:59:57 i mean i don't really get that exact multiplication, but seems like it'd look like that multiplying by *something* might do the trick 09:00:08 should probably read that, fairly magical, yes 09:00:30 not read, more like try to run it on paper 09:04:09 It does the "x & -x" to convert xxxx1000 -> 00001000, I guess. Then the multiplication will mean bit-shifting that suitably magical constant. 09:04:57 It's disappointingly simple, actually, but at least it has enough very magick-looking numbers. 09:05:30 yeah 09:08:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 09:08:31 hmm 09:08:33 i don't get it 09:08:44 that multiplication essentially just shifts the magical number right? 09:09:13 well yeah 09:09:14 you said that 09:09:50 but i just don't get it, it's shifted left, then right, i don't really see where it converts into a small enough number. 09:10:28 Since it's a 32-bit number, the >>27 makes it small enough, by taking the first five bits. 09:10:48 yeah seems like it would, was probably just artifact of notation 09:11:28 i missed the whole anding part first, so i was more worried about trying out the multiplication 09:11:33 assumed it was some serious magic 09:12:12 but it's a slim chance really any 32 bit number has the required property 09:12:44 (to do that kinda conversion for any number directly, given a suitable amount of shiftings and andings afterwards) 09:13:15 x & -x is pretty clever, although negation is not really a binary operation 09:13:40 ah 09:14:01 the magic number is just a number where all 5 bitsub sequences are different 09:14:05 *bit subsequences 09:14:14 that should've been kinda obvious 09:14:26 Yes. 0x0450FBAF seems to also be used elsewhere for that purpose. 09:14:38 err 09:14:42 for what length? 09:14:50 for five, i don't think it does it 09:14:54 0F = 00001111 09:15:02 AF = 10101111 09:15:05 01111 twice 09:15:16 for size four, doesn't do it either, for an even more trivial reason 09:15:59 for six, i can't see a problem instantly 09:16:52 Yes, I think it was checking the six top bits; it was for checking which interrupt needs to be processed in an interrupt handler. 09:17:46 err elaborate 09:17:54 liek checking how 09:18:26 Well, those things tend to have a register or something which has bits set for all the pending interrupts. 09:18:49 So the "find first set" thing can be used to select the lowest-numbered one for processing. 09:18:58 oh interrupts. 09:19:03 well, you see 09:19:22 you say interrupts, i read "this thing called X you don't need to translate to an object" 09:19:41 yeah, seems like it would do that 09:33:55 Eh, it took me something like ten minutes to remember the name ("de Bruijn sequence") for that sort of thing. (Although I guess that's not exactly it, since it's not doing the cyclic thing.) 09:36:00 it's doing it alright. 09:36:16 but names are nice, let's try to remember that one 09:38:28 i don't get all the human names for concepts, why not like "carnivorous sequence" or something. 09:38:58 It wasn't long ago a blog post about this (in the context of those four-digit decimal-number door-codes, and getting in with less than 4*10^4 keypresses since they only care about the four last ones) was going around them IRCs. 09:39:14 yes 09:39:21 well not yes, i didn't know that 09:39:31 but yeah i've invented the sequence in that context 09:40:37 usually, in turku, you can just get by knowing the firefighters' code 09:41:37 is that hard to create? 09:42:08 They've got non-human names for many number classes, though; there are at least friendly numbers, sociable numbers, weird numbers and frugal numbers. 09:42:30 i just know frendlies, and i don't even know what they are 09:42:49 but yes, also real numbers................................ 09:43:12 i should start getting to the lib before it closes prolly 09:43:47 Oh, and apocalyptic numbers. 09:43:52 :D 09:43:54 perfects 09:44:01 surreals 09:44:13 ("A number of the form 2^n that contains the digits 666", according to mathworld.) 09:44:18 (That's a bit boring.) 09:44:40 well that's clearly just a stupid joke 09:45:18 unless they have an uneven distribution, in which case it's probably a message from satan himself 09:45:21 "it"? 09:45:24 i'm not sure what it is 09:46:28 oh mathworld? 09:46:31 hmm. 09:46:57 well, not sure that changes anything. 09:49:30 A happy number is one where the iterated sum-of-squares-of-digits ("123 -> 1+4+9 = 14 -> 1+16 = 17 -> 1+49 = 50 -> 25 -> 29 -> 85 -> 89 -> 145 -> 42 -> 20 -> 4 -> 16 -> 37 -> 58 -> 89 -> 145"; now it's in a cycle) is 1 at some point. 09:49:48 I'm really not sure what makes it especially happy. 09:49:50 well, digits -> ugly 09:50:01 oh 09:50:11 ah sum of squares of digits right 09:50:25 "base doesn't matter!" 09:51:11 "An odious number is a nonnegative number that has an odd number of 1s in its binary expansion. -- Numbers that are not odious are said to be evil numbers." 09:51:27 Really, it's like they've been picking adjectives from a dictionary or something. 09:51:56 At least "odious" sort-of sounds like "odd", but the evil part is even less justified. 09:52:51 Oh, right, "even". Duh. 09:52:53 Still. 09:53:42 It sounds a bit harsh to say that any nonnegative number is either odious ("unequivocally detestable") or just plain evil. 09:56:43 umm. 09:57:11 well that's at least a somewhat useful class 09:58:42 But think of the numbers! 09:59:10 :D 09:59:28 well integers have always been such snobs 10:00:01 Yes, all holier-than-thou "god made us, unlike you other *invented* numbers" pomp. 10:00:03 yeah they have a few more interesting properties than general complexes, seriously, who gives a shit? 10:00:18 yeah 10:00:21 exactly 10:02:07 i mean a real, you can sqrt, and it'll work fine, try to do that to an integer, and noooo, "nah i don't feel like it, try to guy next to me" 10:08:12 -!- Corun has joined. 10:16:38 fizzie, hi 10:16:46 fizzie, progress on jitfunge? 10:21:38 Nope. I have a habit of extended hiatuses. Hopefully I'll get back to it some day. Probably a bit busy with work and such the next couple of weeks, though. 10:55:23 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 12:02:14 -!- Corun has joined. 12:04:01 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 12:14:43 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 12:40:28 fizzie, heh ok 12:42:36 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection reset by peer). 13:58:25 -!- comex has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:58:50 -!- comex has joined. 14:00:47 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:35:39 -!- olsner has joined. 14:51:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:58:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 14:58:58 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 14:59:59 hi 15:01:14 Hey 15:04:30 -!- AnMaster has joined. 15:07:55 In which programming.reddit becomes a shithole:"For those of you who don't know: many of the best developers in the world hang out on irc.freenode.net. It's an amazing resource." 15:08:58 Are we the world's best deeloppers? 15:12:48 Yes. 15:13:54 I'm going to join ##c and ask about C#. 15:23:34 Yeah, go do a real language loser! 15:27:02 :D 15:34:01 ehird: ask why the characters are the wrong way around 15:34:11 yes 15:34:25 i think i had a dream where i was speaking in finnish in here. 15:34:49 um you are 15:35:34 well, the reason i remembered was that just after saying character thing, i had a short moment of panic thinking it was in finnish 15:35:46 because i talked to a finnish guy in english today, not realizing it at first 15:35:51 hahahaah 15:36:00 oklopol: make a polyglot sentence 15:36:14 i don't wanna tehdä niin 15:36:22 wat 15:36:28 ohh 15:36:31 polyglot sentence right. 15:37:22 i guess i could've answered "no", which would be sensible in both finnish and english 15:38:54 oklopol: i mean 15:38:56 what did that sentence say 15:39:22 the first one? 15:39:25 en halua do that 15:39:32 ah 15:39:32 :D 15:39:35 i like it 15:45:41 -!- jix has joined. 15:56:36 it's because the kernel uses ffs right? 15:57:19 that's seems like a very probable reason 15:57:26 *that's mats 16:10:17 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:52:44 oerjan: DID YOU KNOW "TACO CAT" IS A PAL IN DROME 16:53:36 what's a drome 16:53:37 No it's not. 16:53:46 It's TAC OCAT backward. 16:54:06 Slereah2: i don't get it 16:54:31 oklopol: Slereah2 wants equal representation for whitespace 16:54:55 oerjan: well yes i know 16:55:05 I'M JUST MAKING A STATEMENT. 16:56:28 WELL CAN I BE MAKING A QUESTION? 16:57:11 :O 16:57:15 no :< 16:57:57 i mean 16:57:59 well 16:58:00 THEN I'LL MAKE AN EXCLAMATION! 16:58:14 i'm still not satisfied 16:58:30 so how come we have so many courses at the uni i can't take them all at once 16:58:52 Only 24 hours per day, oklopol. 16:59:07 Slereah2: err. 16:59:12 oklopol: it's to give students incentive to invent time machines 16:59:15 in all unis? 16:59:39 it's a big worldwide plot 16:59:47 :| 16:59:52 god i hate the world 17:00:47 * oklopol takes some more courses, naturally laughing like a maniac while doing that 17:02:09 Destroy the world, oerjan 17:02:10 oklopol* 17:03:27 and have even less time for courses? funk no 17:05:29 But once the world is destroyed 17:05:38 You won't need to know anythinfg 17:05:56 and you'll have all the time in the world! 17:07:12 And then, bam! 17:07:15 Your glasses break 17:07:22 IT'S NOT FAIR! 17:08:27 now that's not a problem, since there'll be nothing to see 17:08:59 except Cthulhu. but don't mind him. 17:09:30 or you'll have no mind left 17:11:49 Only if you trust Lovecraft. 17:11:54 Sure, he's huge and slimy. 17:11:58 But is he maddening? 17:12:47 my eyesight is perfect 17:13:03 only noobs have imperfect senses 17:13:13 Like DAREDEVIL? 17:13:22 well okay he's the exception 17:13:29 he's so cool, oh my god he's cool. 17:16:34 heh, got naked, realized to curtains were open, looked out with my mouth open, quickly closed them 17:16:39 must have looked comical 17:17:42 Was anyone outside? 17:17:54 well this isn't bottom flooe 17:17:59 *floomy 17:18:04 floomy 17:18:14 -!- Slereah2 has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ floomy. 17:18:15 but there are menny houses darr. 17:18:41 who wants to write c for me 17:18:53 c 17:18:53 i think c has already been written. 17:18:57 xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 17:19:04 lol 17:19:11 who wants to write c code for me 17:19:23 "c code" 17:19:25 xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 17:19:33 oklopol, WITHOUT THE QUOTES! 17:19:46 don't hurt your jaw oklopol 17:19:47 WITHOUT THE... okay. 17:19:57 who wants to write a piece of c code for me 17:19:57 oklopol, ARGH! 17:20:01 a piece of c code for me 17:20:03 done 17:20:09 ehird: what piece 17:20:15 a piece 17:20:27 ehird, hey I wrote it ^ 17:20:34 go away 17:20:37 :D 17:20:49 ehird, error: label away not found 17:20:53 int main() {printf("Hello, world!\n");} 17:21:10 oerjan, forgot to include stdio.h 17:21:14 and forgot to return 17:21:19 AnMaster: "a piece" 17:21:19 #include 17:21:29 int main(void) {printf("Hello, world!\n"); return 0; } 17:21:35 oerjan, ah truye 17:21:37 true* 17:21:38 In which the RnRS editor is a successful troll: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.scheme/browse_thread/thread/06f0588e1e4c999d/89120d79e5650d94?#89120d79e5650d94 17:22:13 LOL, then erik naggum replies without realising who it is 17:22:16 and insults his mental capacity 17:23:43 ehird, hm? 17:23:50 RnRS = scheme standards 17:23:59 the post linked is a joke putdown of scheme 17:24:05 and everyone replies seriously 17:24:06 hehe 17:24:46 1995 trolls were so much better. 17:24:52 USE REAL LANGUAGE FAGGOTS BRAINFUCK IS NOT WHAT EVERYONE WANT 17:27:18 fun thread 17:27:25 sadly don't have time to read it all atm 17:27:32 where can i find some real language faggots? 17:27:51 oh right, psygnisfive 17:28:13 groan 17:35:22 * ehird considers reinventing the wheel then doesn't because that's stupid 17:36:29 of course 17:37:10 reinvent the time machine instead. maybe _this_ time it won't be accidentally uninvented. 17:38:34 :D 17:42:32 Straw poll: Should I reinvent the wheel? 17:44:12 Oi. Vote. 17:44:21 You need to destroy the wheel, first. 17:44:26 Done. 17:44:32 ehird: of course :D 17:44:37 Aight. oerjan? 17:45:11 YES and quickly WHY did you destroy the wheel now i'll have to WALK to town HURRY UP 17:45:24 oerjan: here, have a wheel temporarily. 17:45:27 until I make my awesome one. 17:45:30 * ehird givse 17:45:33 gives 17:45:57 givse? is that related to goatse? no thanks. 17:46:10 * ehird gives 17:46:22 * oerjan snatches 17:49:45 A temporary wheel? 17:49:50 Is it octogonal? 17:50:12 * oerjan looks at it 17:50:33 not much 17:51:15 * ehird calls wheel-reinventing code "wheel" 17:51:25 ... this means I have to write c code ;_; 17:52:49 $ ls -l /bin/sh 17:52:50 -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 106348 Dec 25 11:54 /bin/sh 17:52:51 hm? 17:52:54 just set the group 17:52:56 that should fix it 17:53:29 * AnMaster looks at ehird 17:53:30 -!- olsner_ has joined. 17:53:36 olsner_, hi 17:53:37 ... 17:53:38 AnMaster: 17:53:41 stop talking. 17:53:44 ehird, why? 17:53:46 you're making a fool of yourself. 17:53:55 ehird, no I was playing along with the joke 17:54:06 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:54:07 no sentient organism could consider that a joke 17:54:18 and I don't talk to chatterbots :D 17:54:50 ehird, you mentioned you wanted to reinvent a wheel before? How does that make you feel? 17:54:54 ;P 17:54:55 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 17:55:11 now if that wasn't funny... 17:55:13 AnMaster: ¨ª•¶å¥•ÊÁ*‡§¶å§¢Åfi‹#€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€#¢Å‡fi‡¥å˙•ªå¶§¶∞Åfifl‡fl\0\0\0exit(1); 17:55:18 ehird, thanks 17:55:22 I take that as a laugh 17:55:31 AnMaster: dammit, you didn't buffer overflo¶••••••¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶exit(1); 17:55:41 the _universe_ is a joke (and a bad one, too). AnMaster is merely a part of it. 17:55:49 oerjan, oh yes it is 17:56:41 _someone_ should have realized that a joke that takes billions of years to tell isn't very good 17:56:51 who knows scons(1)? 18:02:55 ehird, I think fizzie does 18:03:41 Why didn't the chicken cross the road? 18:03:42 AnMaster: what build tool do you use, then. 18:04:25 ehird, I'll answer that once you answer my question 18:04:35 no. 18:04:43 well I use cmake mostly 18:04:47 ew 18:05:10 anyway the answer was: because there was no crossing at that place 18:05:12 ;P 18:05:25 zebra crossing* 18:05:50 k. 18:10:28 specifically I'm trying to get scons to vomit all the .os and binaries into build/ 18:10:33 same with its .sconsign.dblite thang. 18:11:02 ehird, I would assume you could just do something like: 18:11:04 mkdir build 18:11:06 cd build 18:11:09 scons --source .. 18:11:10 or whatever 18:11:28 such systems work for cmake and autotools 18:11:29 I'm not in the mood for assumptions. 18:11:39 (cmake .., ../configure) 18:14:46 By the way, I'm now taking guesses as to what the project is. 18:16:48 No? 18:19:43 Hmph. oerjan? AnMaster? 18:20:19 ehird, why would I want to guess? there are lots of projects using scons 18:20:26 though I much prefer scones 18:20:27 :P 18:20:28 I wasn't talking about scons. 18:20:53 ehird, what on earth then were you talking about? 18:21:03 The project. Of reinventing the wheel. 18:21:06 I am now taking guesses as to what it is. 18:21:25 a project reinventing something in a better way 18:21:27 Yes. 18:21:29 But what is it. 18:21:29 maybe that linter? 18:21:36 could be that linter... 18:21:43 Nah. 18:22:17 ehird, also I suggest not reinventing the round wheel, nor the square wheel 18:22:22 I have a better shape I believe 18:22:27 hexagonal 18:22:28 :( 18:22:30 :)* 18:22:40 it will be a four dimensional shape. 18:22:42 now make another guess :| 18:22:47 ehird, wow 18:22:52 hypercube wheel?! 18:22:59 reinventing the hypercube wheel 18:23:02 that sounds cool 18:23:02 yes. 18:23:19 ehird, what lang are you coding it in you said? 18:23:20 C? 18:23:23 C 18:23:41 ehird, why are you using C and not python? Low level OS stuff needed, or due to performance? 18:23:45 or something else? 18:23:50 Performance, pretty much. 18:23:54 It's not a job for Python. 18:24:01 (It's not OS-level, either, though.) 18:24:02 (or ruby or such) 18:24:05 hm 18:24:13 ehird, graph database? 18:24:25 Nah, a graph database could be done in Ruby/Python/etc. 18:24:33 wouldn't scale to huge datasets then 18:24:38 hm 18:24:49 ehird, have you mentioned this project before in the channel? 18:24:58 I think I've mentioned doing something like it. 18:25:03 hm 18:25:10 ehird, no I can't guess without some hints 18:25:11 I've yelled about the wheel I'm reinventing before in here almost certainly 18:25:20 AnMaster: it's very much to do with IO. 18:25:31 ehird, also you yelled about reinventing the wheel a lot of times 18:25:44 for many different things 18:25:47 AnMaster: it's very much to do with IO. :P 18:25:50 ehird, some server? 18:25:57 Getting hotter. 18:26:06 cool, err I mean hot! 18:26:15 hm 18:26:31 ehird, you always complained about bad web servers 18:26:37 OUCH IT BURNS 18:26:39 apache, lighttpd, nginx, and so on 18:26:40 Yah 18:26:47 so I guess you are writing your own 18:26:50 I am crazy enough to attempt to write my own web server. :D 18:27:03 This will either go brilliantly or terribly. 18:27:05 ehird, I was trying to be tactful... 18:27:09 remember it was you who said it 18:27:20 Yeah but you got it :P 18:29:08 Basically, this webserver will have mod_kitten. 18:29:11 Everything else comes from that. 18:29:14 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 18:29:17 Well, by mod_kitten I mean modules/kitten.c. 18:37:49 I dunno what it'll do. 18:37:53 Give you an ASCII art kitten? 18:40:38 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:41:40 that's thinking small. 18:42:13 it should enclose every page in a speech bubble so that a kitten's saying it. 18:44:19 so 18:44:22 any programmers in here? 18:44:37 nope 18:44:38 no 18:44:47 i'm thinking maybe i should look into that 18:44:52 i hear it can be pretty fun 18:44:59 think that's true? 18:45:12 yes 18:45:15 Administrivia 18:45:16 err 18:45:18 10:41:40 that's thinking small. 18:45:19 10:42:13 it should enclose every page in a speech bubble so that a kitten's saying it. 18:45:21 fuck _yes_ 18:45:54 i understand some people here have trouble understanding humor. 18:46:03 this page may help: http://www.insaneabode.com/roboterotica/jokesexplained/jokes.html 18:46:31 oerjan: but how can i open that when it's old? 18:46:41 :< 18:46:49 * oklopol is sad 18:47:12 in that case, _this_ page may help: http://www.mezzacotta.net/singles/jokes_explained_explained.php 18:47:47 and if you still aren't getting, it, try: http://www.mezzacotta.net/singles/jokes_explained_explained_explained.php 18:47:52 oh 18:47:54 that one is new! 18:48:03 from today 18:48:24 I WONDER WHAT THEY COME UP WITH NEXT 18:52:03 -!- atrapado has joined. 18:56:18 -!- oerjan has quit ("Gotta get the wheel to the bus"). 18:56:52 plausible explanation 18:59:03 -!- MizardX has quit ("Blue squares floting about..."). 18:59:30 -!- MizardX has joined. 19:10:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:12:33 hey. uhh, who knows c here and is alive. AnMaster: what hash table lib do you use 19:12:55 libghthash, but there are many others 19:13:01 -!- Vendan has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:13:11 this is for storing http headers fwiw 19:13:17 one called sunrisedd (iirc) looked good but had possibly bad license 19:13:24 so short string -> medium-length string 19:13:31 also, needs to be MIT-compatible 19:13:31 ehird, I suggest testing different ones and finding out which one works best for you 19:13:38 mm, but that's work 19:13:40 maybe I should roll my own 19:13:43 ehird, libghthash is lgpl 19:13:56 also rolling your own hash library is kind of hard 19:14:09 i wrote a hash table in my sleep once, but it sucked :P 19:14:14 hrm 19:14:18 does lgpl mesh with mit? 19:14:22 ehird, IANAL 19:15:31 ehird, hm, the current main performance bottle neck in cfunge is pushing strings on the stack it seems 19:15:50 I guess I could make the stack grow down instead and then simply memcpy() them 19:15:56 no need to reverse the data then 19:16:27 and it could make use of SSE ;P 19:16:32 ehird, what do you think? 19:16:39 go for it. 19:16:48 AnMaster: did you do that static fungespace thing? 19:16:56 yes I did 19:17:24 it is using libghthash if outside the static area 19:17:35 works fine for most common programs since they usually only use a small area around 0,0 19:19:00 how much does fungot stray from it? 19:19:01 ehird: this is fnord to see their fnord pomorski only needs to be used to support the views herein. given that other prominent sources ( including britannica) follow the medical discharge story, perhaps we should all be moved down to near the end of the second 19:19:06 ^style 19:19:07 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp* 19:19:10 heh 19:19:22 ehird, not much excelt when running underload 19:19:26 then it can go way off 19:19:35 ah 19:19:59 by using a 128 MB static array I managed to fit the underload area nicely into the static area, but that sucked for other reasons obviously 19:20:08 * ehird decides to make static file serving a module because he is crazy. 19:20:11 I bet you can imagine 19:20:23 ehird, heh 19:20:28 AnMaster: hey, my VPS could run two whole funge programs with that. 19:20:30 assuming no OS. 19:20:32 ehird, going to use sendfile()? 19:20:37 yes. 19:20:51 * ehird has to support both kqueue and epoll because he devs on os x and deploys on linux :''''''''''''( 19:20:59 ehird, hah, well normal size of the static array is 1024*1024*4 bytes in a 32-bit build 19:21:04 so around 4 MB 19:21:39 the main issue with fungot is that it uses a lot of cells left and right 19:21:40 AnMaster: quoting the article: ' ' adding 3 meas. of 5/ 8, though i tried to find a q&a that is no longer the inevitable number 1 in both categories. small—preceding wikipedia:signaturesunsigned comment added by special:contributions/ fnord) 19:21:43 for underload stack things 19:22:09 ehird, bbl 19:22:20 Hmm. You can't stuff sockets into a FILE * can you? 19:22:22 Dammit. 19:22:51 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 19:25:29 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:28:07 -!- Judofyr has quit (Client Quit). 19:33:23 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:36:11 ehird, afaik: no 19:36:20 ehird, why would you want to? 19:36:30 also use writev() if you have more than one thing to write 19:36:33 not write() 19:36:41 AnMaster: Trying to represent "socket or file", although I guess it's more "socket or file or just about anything else, like a string" 19:36:49 So I guess I should write my own abstract-io layer for that. 19:36:58 ehird, std:basic_stream ;P 19:36:59 * AnMaster ducks 19:37:04 die 19:37:05 ::* 19:37:14 what 19:37:25 s/:/::/ == ::* 19:37:48 o 19:37:48 ehird, anyway C has string-as-stream iirc 19:37:50 the * comes first :P 19:37:50 oh 19:37:52 also, does it? 19:37:54 glibc does too 19:37:56 wat 19:38:00 err 19:38:03 C++ does 19:38:06 and so does glibc 19:38:31 for C++: 19:38:32 std::stringstream 19:38:49 for glibc, I'm currently trying to remember the function name 19:40:46 ehird, man fmemopen 19:40:50 on a system with glibc 19:40:54 it is a glibc extension 19:41:00 totally crazy one 19:41:14 right, I'm not making myself gnu-specific 19:41:20 ehird, agreed 19:41:24 I wouldn't use it either 19:41:26 because i gdon't like it :D 19:41:33 ehird, except iirc it is in POSIX.1-2008 19:41:45 w/e :P 19:41:48 i'll write my own layer 19:42:02 ah yes it is 19:45:36 -!- Corun has joined. 20:28:20 i AM a real language faggot :o 20:28:34 btw have i mentioned how delicious cocks are? 20:28:53 and by that i mean like 20:29:03 oh muh gawwwd cocks <3<3<# 20:29:43 ... 20:29:44 hi,. 20:29:50 hey. 20:29:54 hello psygnisfive 20:30:01 hey oklopol. 20:30:04 nice to see you back to normal 20:30:14 back to normal? 20:30:21 yes 20:30:30 as in not oklo[^d]ol 20:30:30 i guess it's all the c++ i've been reading. 20:30:34 ah! 20:30:39 er 20:30:41 [^p] 20:30:48 damn rotational lysdexia 20:31:19 rotational dyslexia? i am skeptical 20:31:31 :) 20:31:35 so whats up kiddos 20:31:52 * oklopol goes back to reading, just had to help making that highly sophisticated group joke, which failed 20:32:00 *try to help 20:32:18 psygnisfive: same as usual. you know, stuff. 20:32:22 rd -> 20:32:27 wait wait wait 20:32:28 STUFF? 20:32:35 when the fuck did THIS happen? 20:32:49 oklopol is 20:32:50 pregnant 20:32:57 well yes, he would be 20:36:55 my farina was too sweet :( 21:10:26 rotational dyslexia? i am skeptical <-- googling shows the term exist, 120 hits, all seems to be forums or similar, no verifiable source 21:10:54 that was with quotes 21:31:57 psygnisfive: well depends on the definition of "stuff" 21:32:20 i've been reading quite a lot for about half a year now 21:32:28 but that's really it. 21:34:27 well. not really a lot. maybe 40 page average a day. 21:34:41 more like steady. 21:35:16 ive been reading jared diamonds "collapse" 21:35:57 i've been reading all kinds of shit. 21:37:14 wtf. i just keep getting more and more money no matter how much i spend. 21:37:27 oklopol, hm give some to me? 21:37:34 ;P 21:37:51 AnMaster: the more money i have the less i want to share it. except if i had enough, that would probably change. 21:37:52 yeah give me some too 21:38:10 oh oklopol but obviously if you spend it frivolously you have even MORE money! 21:38:14 oklopol, you said you read "all kinds of shit", what did you see in it? I assume it is like reading the future in innards, except using excrement instead. 21:38:14 so spend it on us :D 21:38:20 i mean one of my dreams has always been to pick a random bum and give them a million dollars. 21:38:29 pick me pick me! :D 21:38:44 AnMaster: excrement books 21:38:45 i see a market 21:38:55 AnMaster: what ehird said, only faster. 21:38:57 i mean 21:39:00 *only slower 21:39:09 ehird, hm... "don't scratch and sniff" 21:39:13 since that fucker types faster than i think 21:39:59 wait... i'm just about to pay a 400 dollar bill, that's why i saw how much i have :DD 21:40:05 way to use my brain. 21:40:16 so yeah, k, i haven't really gotten much richer if you take that to account. 21:40:26 or rather take that from my account 21:40:31 (zing) 21:40:42 badum tish 21:55:48 oh. it's because my demented grandma's munnies are being transferred to me. 21:55:59 i guess i should do a shopping spree or something 21:56:11 ...what do ppl buy except food? 21:56:21 umm 21:56:22 things 21:56:24 computers? 21:56:32 hmm 21:56:46 yeah another computer would be nice 21:56:56 oklopol: ummm houses? 21:56:58 i don't know 21:56:58 i used to use three of them, that was so nerdly 22:00:25 okay, sleep and sp -> 22:21:13 ehird, there? 22:21:17 that web server thing 22:21:19 yes 22:21:22 mmhm 22:21:31 still working on it? 22:21:40 i don't give up on projects that easily :-) 22:21:41 yes 22:21:46 what about using publicfile?~ 22:21:46 but not actually coding it atm 22:21:49 wat? 22:22:06 http://cr.yp.to/publicfile.html 22:22:23 AnMaster: you mean using it for an http server? 22:22:30 ehird, yes~ 22:22:36 oh, sarcasm marks :P 22:22:49 i was about to reply why it's useless for anything but serving static files if you're djb :P 22:22:53 ehird, no not at all~ 22:23:21 Some versions of fhttpd allowed remote users to take over the entire machine. ``I don't think bugs of this kind are left in it,'' the author says. How much is he willing to bet? 22:23:27 ^ jeez, djb, and how do you know you have no bugs? 22:23:48 more likely nobody's told you of any because nobody uses your server. 22:23:54 "# publicfile avoids bug-prone libraries such as stdio. " 22:24:00 I'd like to see his replacement 22:24:01 well i agree there, stdio sux 22:24:04 AnMaster: he has it on his site 22:24:44 AnMaster: http://www.fefe.de/djb/ is an extracted version of djb libs including his io lib 22:24:54 hm ok 22:25:02 * AnMaster was reading http://cr.yp.to/lib/io.html atm 22:26:35 libio, is that next to libya? 22:27:05 i still want to writ libibido 22:28:31 hm how much of music can midi describe? I mean stuff like on a violin you can play pizzicato (plucking strings with finger) as well as lots of other variations 22:28:52 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:29:37 ooooooooooooo 22:29:55 pizzicato is just a female staccato 22:30:21 and staccato is just a gay [short note followed by a pause] 22:30:27 * psygnisfive plucks anmaster's guitar strings 22:31:03 anmaster, i suspect that midi can describe it in arbitrary detail to some extent 22:31:21 i think he's point is whether it has that actual concept. 22:31:24 i mean, Kurzweil synths do midi out, and also can basically synth any music 22:31:38 well can't you somehow add instruments to midi? 22:31:43 i don't actually know much about it 22:31:54 midi i think is just a standard for music representation 22:32:03 i think its instrument independent, to some extent 22:32:11 hmm, yes that's very probably 22:32:19 i don't really know its ideology 22:32:21 hey 22:32:27 i was gonna sleep. 22:32:28 -> 22:32:34 so whether or not something is plucked vs bowed i think depends on how you read off the midi to audio 22:34:07 AnMaster: will you use my server? i would feel bad if nobody did ;'( 22:34:14 whats your server do, ehird 22:34:19 serve thigs 22:34:19 things 22:34:24 yes but what for? 22:34:30 for whatever 22:34:39 can i host porn on there? 22:34:59 what? 22:35:05 it's a server. 22:35:06 a program. 22:35:13 code. 22:35:15 you know. 22:35:17 in a programming language. 22:35:27 yes 22:35:56 how can you host porn on a program 22:37:05 same way you host anything on a server. 22:37:35 psygnisfive: if I told you I had just written an IRC server 22:37:44 would you say "can i host porn on your irc server?" 22:37:48 no because that makes no fucking sense 22:37:49 it's just a program 22:37:57 no, but you just said "server" 22:38:01 so i asked what kind 22:38:05 what does it do 22:38:08 and you said it serves things 22:38:17 so i asked if it could serve porn 22:38:21 none of this is contradictory 22:39:00 yes, you can use the program to host porn. but "there" is incorrect 22:39:06 "can i host porn with it?" would be more valid 22:39:18 it's just a web server 22:40:27 yes, well 22:40:32 you host things on web servers. 22:41:30 ooooooooooooo. 22:41:35 klopol. 22:41:42 o. klo. pol. 22:41:50 ok. lop. ol. 22:42:03 okl. opo. l . 22:42:13 my thoughts exactly 22:42:21 ugain ~> 22:42:22 oklo. pol. . 22:51:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:06:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:45:51 who is alive 23:46:26 the doctor? 23:49:46 meeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 23:50:01 mooooooooooooooo 23:50:09 who else 23:51:05 guys I'm going to set my computer to the year 9999 23:51:07 and see what breaks 23:51:10 wish me luck 23:51:38 in the year ninety-nine, ninety-nine 23:51:45 ok im in 2038 23:51:50 whoa 23:51:52 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 23:51:57 23:59:59 1 jan 2038 23:51:58 goes to 23:52:01 00:00:00 1 jan 2038 23:52:04 i have found groundhog day 23:52:06 duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude 23:52:19 duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude 23:52:38 lol i wondr how much is broke 23:52:50 WHAT SHOULD I DO IN THE FUTURE OERJAN 23:52:51 would have expected that to be in 2012, me thinks 23:53:01 everything lagggggggggg 23:53:03 something doesn't like this 23:53:04 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:53:08 LOL 23:53:11 The server error encountered was: Mail was unable to verify the identity of this server, which has a certificate issued to "imap.googlemail.com". The error was: 23:53:12 The certificate for this server has expired. 23:53:12 time dilation 23:53:16 it thinks it expired like yeaaaaaars ago 23:53:16 XD 23:53:47 this is so lulzy 23:53:50 YM millennia 23:53:55 naw 23:53:58 2009 -- 2038 23:54:04 it didn't set further than that 23:54:06 oh you're not at 9999 yet 23:54:09 i can't 23:54:17 01/01/2038 is the last unix representable date 23:54:22 in 32-bit 23:54:23 oh 23:54:31 ooooooooooooooo 23:54:32 that's why 23:59:59 rolled to 00:00:00 on the _same day_ 23:54:34 01/01? that's a bit of coincidence... 23:54:36 this day repeats itself, FOREVER 23:54:37 oerjan: not rly 23:54:40 epoch is 01/01/1970 23:54:46 i.e., that's time 0 23:54:53 oerjan: it's basically multiplication to figure that out 23:54:58 how come you didn't see it 23:55:03 yes but why would it be a whole number of years 23:55:25 this is all logging to 2038 ^.^ 23:56:45 ok im back in 2008 23:57:02 -!- rodgort has quit ("Coyote finally caught me"). 23:57:16 -!- rodgort has joined. 23:59:17 "The minimum representable time is 1901-12-13, and the maximum representable time is 2038-01-18" 23:59:31 not 01-01 2009-01-06: 00:01:12 huh ok 00:01:22 ok now ill go prehistoric 00:02:12 bah 00:02:13 didnt work 00:02:46 "1901-12-13" 00:02:56 -!- seveninchbread has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:04:34 nah 00:04:35 1970 00:09:00 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:15:34 so who's alive 00:15:38 -!- atrapado has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:17:50 well. i guess i'm here again 00:17:55 but just about to leave 00:18:01 i'm *really* gonna sleep now. 00:18:01 -> 00:18:21 why does ehird keep asking who is alive 00:18:26 cuz 00:18:34 does he have some nefarious purpose, picking us off one by one 00:35:00 yes 00:38:21 i guess it's obvious when you think about it 00:38:29 yes 00:47:13 -!- moozilla has joined. 00:48:59 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:48:59 -!- metazilla has joined. 00:52:16 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:13:20 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 02:03:01 -!- moozilla has joined. 02:05:42 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:36:37 -!- moozilla has joined. 02:36:39 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 02:36:41 -!- metazilla has joined. 02:36:55 -!- moozilla has joined. 02:38:35 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:38:36 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:38:40 -!- metazilla has joined. 02:53:46 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 03:22:22 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:23:02 -!- metazilla has joined. 03:36:39 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:13:53 -!- moozilla has joined. 04:21:56 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:48:27 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 05:01:19 -!- oklopol has quit (Success). 06:46:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:57:05 -!- oklopol has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:10:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 09:25:08 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:31:35 * psygnisfive plucks anmaster's guitar strings <-- I don't have a guitar. Nor do I play violin (I do play piano) 09:31:48 AnMaster: will you use my server? i would feel bad if nobody did ;'( <-- probably not, but what about yourself 09:38:17 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:40:51 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:41:16 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 09:41:51 who said my name 09:42:00 when 09:42:08 recently like 09:42:10 ten minutes ago 09:42:26 AnMaster 09:42:37 oerjan, yes? 09:42:47 ^ 09:43:00 oerjan, infinite loop? 09:43:09 anmaster 09:43:25 psygnisfive, why didn't you read it before you quit then? 09:43:28 * psygnisfive plucks anmaster's guitar strings <-- I don't have a guitar. Nor do I play violin (I do play piano) 09:43:31 afk 09:43:34 my computer choked on me 09:43:40 infact 09:43:48 it choked because i came back just to read it :P 09:49:47 -!- Corun has joined. 10:16:03 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:16:25 -!- moozilla has quit (Client Quit). 10:23:58 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:08:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:10:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 11:38:52 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:39:05 -!- Corun has joined. 11:48:11 -!- Azstal has joined. 11:56:26 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:18:23 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 12:18:31 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:19:26 -!- Slereah has joined. 12:23:30 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:09:16 -!- Corun has joined. 13:14:23 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:27:46 -!- olsner_ has changed nick to olsner. 13:46:02 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:59:22 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Client Quit). 14:04:04 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:04:37 -!- ehird has joined. 14:04:45 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:04:49 -!- ehird has joined. 14:04:51 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:04:55 -!- ehird has joined. 14:04:57 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:05:01 -!- ehird has joined. 14:05:03 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:05:07 -!- ehird has joined. 14:05:09 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:05:13 -!- ehird has joined. 14:14:52 09:43 * psygnisfive plucks anmaster's guitar strings <-- I don't have a guitar. Nor do I play violin (I do play piano) 14:14:56 he was making a sexual joke. 14:15:09 oh 14:15:22 it's psygnisfive; couldn't you have guessed? 14:15:29 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:15:40 He's fingering a minor 14:15:42 WINK WINK 14:18:02 oh lawd 14:18:06 that was terrible 14:23:52 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:23:53 -!- oklofok has joined. 14:31:05 oooooooooooo 14:31:12 umm. 14:31:17 hi oklofok 14:31:21 did i just disconnect a few minutes ago? 14:31:33 i mean. i just got home, and the computer was closed 14:31:37 14:23 oklopol has left IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:31:38 14:23 oklofok has joined (n=nnscript@a91-153-121-248.elisa-laajakaista.fi) 14:31:39 i think that happened yesterday too 14:31:41 liek, yeah man 14:31:45 umm. 14:31:45 it's 14:31 rite nao 14:31:46 so 14:32:02 when i touch the computer, it disconnects, and wants my password 14:32:15 but until then, it's nicely sitting on irc, connected 14:32:19 i mean that's pretty awesome 14:32:43 hmm... what OS is this? 14:33:01 oklofok uses windoze 14:33:16 I seem to recall Windows XP does some odd stuff with networking when you use fast user switching. 14:33:43 no this is the new one 14:33:48 -!- Slereah has quit. 14:33:59 Asztal: he uses vistah. 14:34:30 ehird: could you just say my lines too from n 14:34:45 Asztal: i'm just going to say what oklofok says, forever. 14:35:10 feeling kinda t 14:35:19 Asztal: he's feeling kind of T. 14:35:24 ok. 14:35:41 oklofok: Asztal's ok. 14:35:50 that thing where vista shows the windows like all 3d 14:35:58 flip 3d? 14:36:17 http://drunkmenworkhere.org/170 <- I had it down to 4 incorrect answers at one point. Now I've gone and messed it up :( 14:36:18 everyone was like oh my god it's cool 14:36:24 i mean, you know, all the idiots i know 14:36:35 which is just i myself 14:36:40 i thought it looked pretty cool 14:36:42 i've never used it 14:36:49 Asztal: he thinks flip 3d looks pretty cool 14:36:51 but he's never used it 14:36:52 it just doesn't fit the rest at all 14:36:56 but all the idiots he knew like it 14:37:01 and it doesn't fit with the rest of the os 14:37:09 in his opinion 14:37:17 i mean using it would be like driving a car, and once in a while using the flying mode to park it 14:37:27 because it's simpler that way 14:37:37 Asztal: he says using it would be like driving a car but it has a flying mode but you can only use it to park it 14:38:05 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 14:38:07 I pretty much just never use it because I can't break my Alt-Tab reflex. 14:38:21 don't you agree with flying cars? 14:38:26 oh yes 14:38:55 i mean not agreeing with flying cars would be like... well i can't really think of another analog. 14:39:17 would be like sucking. 14:39:18 a flying car analog for flying cars would be okay though, because, well, they can fly 14:39:28 oklofok: the word is analogy 14:40:31 umm 14:40:49 well i can't really correct it anymore 14:40:53 because you did 14:41:08 please use pm's next time, so i can look like i spotted the error myself. 14:41:24 :D 14:41:27 okay, IE froze up. 14:41:33 seems it can do that 14:41:34 oklofok: LET'S MAKE AN ESOLANG. :| 14:42:15 could it consist entirely of emoticons, but without emoticons actually having any meaning, the semantics just force you to have them everywhere for different reasons 14:42:35 like j, but instead of : and . suffixes, you have ; and : prefixes 14:42:36 maybe 14:42:51 well no, that would pretty much just be having emoticons 14:42:59 maybe it could not have any point at all 14:43:15 umm. 14:43:25 the problem with ie is, if it frozes, i can't actually do anything. 14:43:34 well i can close it, but afaik it doesn't save state 14:44:28 ohhhhhh 14:44:34 this wasn't ie's problem, vista's 14:44:46 i have the maximum ~30 windows open 14:48:12 oh, there's a freebie 14:49:54 also a pretty funny one 15:05:26 hehe 15:06:01 @ 11, ask how many B's, i've deduced enough to know exactly that the amount of B's is between the given range of options :D 15:06:10 which helps a zero amount \o/ 15:07:37 wait. i probably misunderstood the questions that ask what the answer of another questino is 15:07:39 *question 15:07:49 does that mean the question letter, or the actual answer? 15:07:49 hmm 15:07:54 "all of the above" 15:07:58 so i guess kinda obvious 15:11:05 blargh 15:11:24 but then 6 and 17 will just be the same, that doesn't seem very sensible either... 15:11:25 -!- jix has joined. 15:11:39 oh you can clean the thing ofc 15:12:26 hmm. 15:12:32 so okay 15:12:47 if i choose A from both 6 and 17 15:12:49 it's wrong 15:13:03 therefore the question must mean "what is the answer's label" 15:13:12 now, unless the thing is absolutely retarded 15:13:24 then 10 and 16 must work the same way 15:13:33 then 15:13:43 10A 16D is the only solution 15:13:52 so clearly 9 is A 15:14:01 in which case 13 is A too, contradicting itself 15:14:16 either the test or my logic is flawed 15:14:35 probably the first one, but i won't continue unless someone feels like explaining why 15:15:06 which i don't assume anyone does, just saying 15:15:34 Asztal: highlight for you since you said you were playing 15:16:10 presumably by pressing random buttons with some heuristic because you "had it down to 4 incorrect answers" 15:16:14 but still 15:17:04 no wait 15:17:11 10A 16A is okay it seems 15:17:27 and right my logic was indeed flawed 15:17:34 What is the wrong answer to this question? 15:17:35 A: B 15:17:37 B: A 15:17:46 (For extra lulz, A: A and B: B.) 15:17:54 9 can't be deduced to be A from 10A, of course 15:17:57 (Or A: B, B : C and C : A.) 15:18:07 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:18:19 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 15:25:55 I'm down to 3 now 15:26:14 but I suspect I can't solve it by merely changing these 3 15:28:54 actually, I think there's a bug in the checking, because I have 9B and 11C. 15:29:08 (and 9 isn't red) 15:29:41 well i at least need to wait a mo before they change, you might not have noticed if the lag is in my end 15:30:40 it can be slow :( 15:31:33 i currently have 4 correct, 1 with 2 choices, 3 with 3 choices, 9 with 4 choices, 3 with 5 choices 15:32:15 i'm assuming this is solvable without any major long-term problems, because, well, it looks like a puzzle 15:32:31 not long-term, more like something else. 15:35:22 one red one... but all the options contradict something else :( 15:35:51 don't show the solution yet when you're finished 15:36:02 I probably won't :D 15:41:22 GregorR: I just saw someone link to extra-www in an interwebs argument. 15:41:24 You are famous. 15:41:38 15 is a fun one 15:41:47 i bet it's there just out of necessity 15:42:35 i wanna bruteforce it 15:43:23 5^20 15:43:23 9.53674e13 15:43:41 * ehird bruteforces 15 to bruteforce 12 15:43:42 except maybe if i give you the few things i've deduced 15:43:43 let's see 15:43:45 not quite, since 20, 10, and 16 can be solved easily 15:44:08 WTF 15:44:09 also 6 and 17, but not that easily 15:44:10 #15 15:44:13 is WRONG on ALL OF THEM 15:44:20 WHATTTTTTTTT 15:44:22 you have to answer 12 15:44:23 ehird: it's about answer labels 15:44:27 Asztal: o 15:44:28 oklofok: i no 15:44:58 oh, you thought they are red if the answer isn't in the actual correct solution 15:45:05 there's also a lot of restricted choices because only one odd answer can be A, and only one pair of consecutive answers can be equal 15:45:06 that would be a fun problem solving interface, yes. 15:47:02 I have: 15:47:06 6,10,16,17 15:47:07 20 15:47:09 down 15:47:33 you mean actually solved, or solved on your screen? 15:47:57 They're pretty much self-contained 15:48:07 6 and 17 aren't 15:48:12 they have two choices 15:48:23 I got 6 = D17 = B 15:48:31 me too 15:48:34 or should I say D6B17 15:48:49 ehird: based on what? 15:48:59 based on love. 15:49:01 why not 6B17D 15:49:06 dunno 15:49:08 i mean 15:49:12 the decision, not the syntax 15:49:12 tha's just what i did 15:49:15 'cuz I did 6 first 15:49:16 then 17 15:49:18 so. 15:49:26 okay. well it's correct. 15:49:27 because then 16 and 17 would be consecutive and equal, and 2 would cry 15:49:30 yes 15:49:39 Azstal: yes, naturally, i just doubted ehird saw that 15:49:44 :) 15:49:56 I don't think I saw that 15:49:59 the ones I hate are the ones where I have to solve every other question first. 15:50:09 whoa, #19 is, um, ... 15:50:10 lol 15:50:13 you mean the ones that actually make sense? 15:50:19 that actually require thinking? 15:50:21 * ehird brutforcez 15:50:23 oklofok: :DD 15:50:44 i hate those too, they make puzzles too hard :<<<<<<<<<< 15:51:08 i agree, yo 15:52:05 hokay, I've done all the self contained ones 15:52:06 now what 15:56:14 yay. 15:56:22 i found another one with just 2 choices 15:56:29 I'M PRETTY CLOSE. 15:56:59 oklofok: do you just like brute force it? 15:57:08 i can't think of any way of answering the non-self contained ones other than guessing 15:59:09 i mostly think 15:59:18 yay, third with just 2 15:59:22 oklofok: but how, i mean, i can't answer any of them since I have to solve all the other ones first to do them 15:59:31 which then depends on the answer to it 15:59:52 ehird: afaik you can't solve them directly without making a really long inference chain that branches. 15:59:58 well more like "probably" 16:00:12 oklofok: so that's what you do? :<<< 16:00:14 but you can store certain information about what the answers must be, and make inferences. 16:00:20 no 16:00:22 that's cheating 16:00:24 what do you do then 16:00:37 :oo 16:00:42 systematically make short inferences 16:01:00 that give me less information 16:01:21 i just have a list of possibilities for all questions ofc 16:01:22 ah. 16:01:29 well "just" wasn't ofc 16:01:37 but the fact i have a list for each of them was 16:01:48 because i've spilled parts of its content 16:03:51 well it 16:04:00 's not cheating if you check every branch 16:04:14 but educated guessing is, unless you can justify it 16:05:06 what are you discussing? 16:05:23 http://drunkmenworkhere.org/170 16:05:27 self-referential puzzle. 16:05:50 seems it's a bit too hard for me. 16:06:01 oklofok: DON'T ADMIT DEFEAT 16:06:31 question 20 isn't self ref it seems? 16:06:32 or? 16:06:51 no, it isn't 16:07:06 though I don't know what the answer is for it 16:07:07 AnMaster: i think there has to be non self-referential question to have a consistent, unique anserset 16:07:10 *answerset 16:07:19 yes probably 16:07:25 also, it's E 16:07:30 it doesn't really matter so yeah 16:08:44 AnMaster: and the self-contained ones are: 16:08:52 6,17 16:08:57 10,16 16:09:07 19 16:09:08 20 16:09:19 so nothing depends on 19? 16:09:20 i.e., beyond that they all depend on multiple questions 16:09:26 AnMaster: no, most things depend on everything 16:09:31 but those don't depend on anyhitng out of their pair 16:09:31 ehird, right true 16:09:34 so you can complete them first 16:09:40 a search of all possibilities to find a consistent set seems the only way then 16:09:47 yeah, with your brain :P 16:09:53 well, 19 isn't really eslf-contained 16:09:57 since all answers are correct 16:10:08 you have to match it so it match up with what you answer elsewhere 16:10:17 AnMaster: yes, incrementally 16:10:17 for "number of consonants" 16:10:18 and such 16:10:26 so you can just backtrack when you can't get it further 16:10:28 I hate 12 16:10:32 ehird, true 16:10:39 prolog should be great for this I assume 16:10:51 ehird: nah you don't need a non self-referential question 16:10:59 oklofok: so 20 is just silly 16:11:04 AnMaster: no, you're meant to use your brain. 16:11:06 what's the answer to this question? A: A, B: C, C: B 16:11:06 not a computer. 16:11:08 it's called a puzzle. 16:11:12 ehird, also some are invalid, like 1-A 16:11:16 oklofok: a 16:11:17 :P 16:11:24 AnMaster: well, duh 16:11:24 AnMaster: it just checks current state of affairs 16:11:40 oklofok, what checks? 16:11:46 AnMaster: the site. 16:11:53 ah some javascript there? 16:11:59 no 16:12:01 it's server-side 16:12:04 well 16:12:07 it uses javascript to submit 16:12:08 yes 16:12:08 I see no submit button 16:12:13 * AnMaster enables scripts then 16:12:14 it auto-submits wen you change answer 16:12:15 :P 16:12:21 woo, i did 9 16:12:30 and 2 16:12:32 awesome 16:12:34 i'm getting somewhere 16:12:49 hm 16:13:02 with javascript on it take ages 16:13:02 strange 16:13:03 ages to load that is 16:13:03 and 13 16:13:03 woop woop 16:13:05 er 16:13:06 nope 16:13:17 AnMaster: slow server 16:13:22 ah 16:13:23 oklofok: can you hal 16:13:24 p 16:13:40 it would be funny if there was no solution 16:13:46 heh 16:14:43 6,17 is impossible? 16:15:08 it is not. 16:15:13 ah right 16:15:17 heh 16:15:20 oklofok: see /msgs 16:15:22 :{ 16:15:25 i hate sayng that 16:15:56 came, saw, solved. 16:16:04 ...that is, your message ;) 16:16:22 lawl 16:17:30 i have 2,5,17,9,10,16,17,19,20 done 16:17:52 i finally solved a sixth one 16:18:00 question 1 16:18:10 it's of course one of the simple ones 16:18:13 you only had 5 done?! 16:18:26 yes. 16:19:15 well now 7 of course, 1 kinda does that 16:19:16 I've got 2 answers for #1 :( 16:19:42 Azstal: it's actually a rather short inference to get it 16:32:36 I have all by 4 solved now 16:33:14 s/by/but/ 16:36:25 i have 10 solved 16:40:39 isn't 10 A? 16:42:55 well yes 16:49:05 I give up 16:49:08 too much work 17:06:11 okay solved 17:06:23 the beginning was quite hard 17:06:29 hmm 17:06:32 well i'll check it 17:08:16 yeah 17:08:22 not that it's very surprising 17:08:26 should probably do something 17:08:28 now 17:08:37 maybe, like, read 17:09:10 ehird: you need some simple algebra with the amounts of characters in addition to just simple inference 17:09:22 but like. 4+3>6 17:11:06 also god that took long :D 17:11:14 over 2 hours 17:11:26 i thought it was like 20 minutes or something 17:13:09 the longest "let's try this and see what happens" chain you need is length 3; but there's are pretty obvious signs you should try it 17:13:49 (getting that answer is the only thing that can conceivably give you any data, so there must be a solution given what you currently have) 17:14:48 hmm yeah i should probably analyze this a bit longer 17:15:48 so, err. seriously -> 17:16:04 also if someone wants the solution, i can give it 17:16:15 -> 17:17:36 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:18:22 blargl 17:24:30 <- 17:24:38 although i do kinda wanna try prolog on that 17:25:33 then again i'm not sure how to get anything that efficient out of the sum ones 17:33:26 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:04:59 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 18:20:47 oklofok, sure I want the solution 18:21:04 anyway there are certain ones that are impossible, quite a lot in fact 18:21:40 like 1-{A,B} (Since if 2 was B then A and B would have the same value) 18:21:58 err 18:22:05 like 1-{A,B} (Since if 2 was B then 1 and 2 would have the same value) 18:22:06 I mean 18:22:08 well yes, that's one of the trivial things you can conclude 18:22:21 well, explaining is for humans 18:22:22 oklofok, I managed to get all except 4 to match 18:22:34 i prefer to think of it as checking all (1,2)-pairs :P 18:22:36 but I couldn't make 4 work without breaking everything else 18:22:53 oklofok, so I would like to see the solution 18:23:41 umm 18:23:49 well, it's in your priv now 18:23:50 but... 18:23:57 thanks 18:24:04 that's pretty sick when you read it out loud :D 18:24:11 hah 18:24:12 oklofok: what??? 18:24:12 tell me 18:24:14 tell me tell me 18:24:18 the solution 18:24:18 well not sick 18:24:18 thatis 18:24:20 not the sick 18:24:22 i get that 18:24:24 but 18:24:26 ssolutioant 18:24:33 just pornative 18:24:35 umm 18:24:50 well i'll priv it too 18:25:00 in case Asztal is still trying or something 18:25:19 it wasn't as sick as i thought 18:25:30 i mean i didn't realize at first it was actually completely sensible 18:25:42 so i just thought it was about having sex with dead babies 18:25:54 "ded" 18:26:36 Dad bedded a bad, bad babe. 18:26:47 did he now? 18:28:12 there are two possible solutions I think 18:28:26 yeah right. 18:28:36 seriously i didn't make one guess solving that. 18:28:49 ah wait 18:28:52 Wow, apple just removed all the drm from their itunes store [source: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2009/01/06/drm-free] 18:28:54 then 6&7 doesn't match 18:28:59 Hey, I might actually use it now. :P 18:28:59 AnMaster: shocking 18:29:04 oklofok, ? 18:29:09 AnMaster: nm 18:29:36 oklofok, the pair 6,17 in itself have 2 possible solution 18:30:11 AnMaster: but only one is consistent 18:30:13 with all the others 18:30:13 yes. also the singleton {19} has 5 possibles solution 18:30:24 i could write this in prolog easy prolly 18:30:25 ehird, true 18:30:39 and prolog would indeed be a good language to solve it 18:31:06 or some other back tracking language 18:31:17 prolog is just a DSL for exponential-time algorithms. 18:31:23 :D 18:31:39 heh 18:31:52 ehird, can't you write user interfacing programs in it? 18:32:02 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:32:03 yes, but you don't want to. 18:32:14 hah 18:32:17 sure you do, imperative prolog is fun 18:32:25 it kind of sucks. 18:32:39 hm, xcut? oh wait that is used, it would be somewhat like xmonad otherwise 18:32:45 well it's pretty eso used like that 18:32:52 probably wouldn't be fun to write 18:32:55 true 18:33:05 * AnMaster has looked a bit at prolog, not much though 18:33:15 more like it's funny to read what weirness results when ppl write imperativish stuff with it 18:33:26 i've read a book about it 18:33:30 never used it iirc 18:33:33 * ehird writes solver for dis in prolooooog 18:33:37 oklofok, about prolog or about imperative prolog? 18:33:43 AnMaster: what's imperative prolog? 18:33:49 more like it's funny to read what weirness results when ppl write imperativish stuff with it 18:34:05 ok... s/imperative/imperativish/ 18:34:11 well prolog is pretty sequential 18:34:18 you can write io stuff with it 18:34:21 that's what i meant really. 18:34:33 getting input, outputting, doing computation in between 18:34:38 anyway that sounds fun... imperative haskell and functional basic 18:34:39 :D 18:34:46 ehird: I DOUBT IT'LL BE AS FAST AS MY 2 HOURS 18:34:53 :DD 18:35:01 well 18:35:11 actually imperative haskell is something i would very much like. 18:35:12 how many possible combinations of the options are there if you brute force 18:35:14 lets see 18:35:16 i was just thinking that the other day 18:35:18 20 options 18:35:20 too many AnMaster 18:35:21 not worth it 18:35:37 5 alternatives each 18:35:38 so 18:35:40 5^20 18:35:44 right, too many 18:35:51 i mean it's so perfect, but usually i just don't feel like functional, because, well, it requires me to know more in advance about what i want the prog to do 18:36:00 so it's not as good for randomly hacking stuff up imo 18:36:17 oklofok, you have a point there 18:36:20 oklofok: refactoring. 18:36:21 yo. 18:36:21 * AnMaster was hacking a script in awk 18:36:29 hack some shit up, mess it up if it doesn't fit 18:36:31 repeat until works 18:36:33 in retrospect... it would have been better in some other language 18:36:39 however it is almost done 18:36:41 ehird: yeah that's so much fun. you're missing the point. 18:36:45 it is fun 18:36:47 it's trivial 18:37:18 well whatever, either agree or don't. 18:37:30 lol 18:37:54 oklofok, depends on if you have an IDE (select, click extract method) or an unix-like system (sed, awk and grep will fix it most of the time) or just a simple text editor (it is not fun then) 18:38:04 for the first two it is easy enough 18:38:11 fix what? 18:38:32 oklofok, fix the function names and so on after refactoring 18:38:38 ... 18:38:44 you fail to understand what i meant by refactoring. 18:39:02 ehird, I assumed you meant the normal mainstream meaning of it? 18:39:02 i meant hacking up the structure of the program, not renaming bloody functions 18:39:55 having to do refactoring in a quick hack pretty much proves my point functional paradigm is often not as nice for it. not that i agree you need to do it. 18:40:00 ehird, true, but sometimes you end up renaming functions as a part of refactoring 18:40:17 no. 18:40:18 it's just it takes a little longer to write a program because you need to know a bit more about what the end result will look like 18:40:23 if you just rename functions and that's it, you fail. 18:40:30 ehird, true 18:40:32 you do more 18:40:35 oklofok: refactoring is a quick hack though 18:40:39 it's quicker 18:40:48 quick hacks are easy in functional langs 18:41:20 whatever, i don't see how you can argue what experience has shown me about my brain. 18:41:57 so plz just agree or don't, stop teaching me, i hate you doing that. 18:44:03 :D 18:44:23 :) 18:45:16 oklofok, s/or/and/ 18:45:46 AnMaster: correcting my sentence? 18:45:51 i mean, i liked it the way it was 18:46:13 oklofok, I prefer it with "agree and don't" 18:46:22 well 18:46:29 okay then 18:46:46 ehird: whichever you chose, could you try doing the other thing too? 18:47:12 what other thing 18:47:20 ehird: nm 18:47:25 no what 18:47:33 to cover a lot of cost you must use a lot of weight...... 18:48:02 how do you split an atom into its chars in prolog 18:48:26 umm. that's kinda technical, i suggest ggl. 18:48:31 unless #prolog 18:48:34 or something 18:48:38 also ggl 18:49:47 one(R, X) :- opt(X, [1,2,3,4,5], Y), Y2 is Y+1, at(R, Y2, b). 18:49:51 woop 18:50:58 actually 18:51:01 one(R, X) :- opt2(X, Y), Y2 is Y+1, at(R, Y2, b). 18:51:56 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:52:41 holy shit 18:52:42 | ?- solve(R). 18:52:42 R = [_,_,_,_,_,_,_,_,_,_,_,_,_,_,_,_,_,_,_,_|_] ? ; 18:52:44 zsh: bus error gprolog 18:52:46 i crashed fucking gprolog 18:52:48 :D 18:53:43 2. The only two consecutive questions with identical answers are questions: 18:53:45 bah that's just too hard. 18:53:48 to formulate. 18:54:04 ehird, oh? 18:54:10 in prolog. 18:54:16 for me. 18:54:17 mh 18:54:19 hm* 18:54:59 i don't think i have time to do it myself 18:55:01 but would be cool 18:55:05 so maybe after this week 18:55:12 if i remember the whole thing anymoer 18:55:48 hm 18:56:06 hm 18:56:42 well I was thinking of how many ways existed to build cfunge... 18:57:07 too many compile time options to test all combinations (and that not including cflags) 18:57:29 http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2009/01/06itunes.html 's official 19:05:30 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:41:08 hm 19:41:20 there is diff for comparing 2 files, and diff3 for comparing 3 files 19:41:28 what I'm missing is a diffn for comparing n files 19:41:55 because currently I want to compare 36 different test result output of mycology from building in different configurations with different compilers 19:44:32 AnMaster: pipe diff3's 19:44:36 or use kdiff or sth 19:44:41 kdiff? 19:44:48 kompare? 19:44:54 anyway kompare just does 2 files 19:45:18 kdiff3 exists 19:45:23 but that doesn't solve it 19:48:45 AnMaster: write it. 19:49:01 hm 19:50:03 AnMaster: it's just longest common subsequence :P 19:50:08 just generalize it for multiple sequences 19:50:18 hm maybe 19:50:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_common_subsequence_problem 19:51:11 "The problem is NP-hard for the general case of an arbitrary number of input sequences." 19:51:15 right 19:52:13 sure. 19:52:15 36 doesn't sound like too many though 19:52:23 Deewiant, true 19:52:36 Depends on the complexity of the best algos of course 20:05:24 -!- Corun has joined. 20:31:54 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 20:32:59 ehird, in all likelihood it'll be in the typical prologish fashion like atom_equates_to_string(TheAtom, TheString) 20:59:16 err 20:59:25 AnMaster: you don't need the np-hard algo 20:59:39 well 20:59:40 oklofok, true 20:59:45 umm, yeah, maybe you do 20:59:45 anyway I solved it another way 20:59:47 but 20:59:54 i assumed you needed to get just all pairs 21:00:04 but then again why would there be diff3 if that's what you wanted 21:00:14 I want a diff36 21:00:21 like all files side by side with differences 21:00:23 yes but what does diff36 do 21:00:28 hmm okay 21:00:32 yeah then it's exactly that. 21:00:37 sorry, i'm a guesser 21:10:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:24:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:34:34 hi ais523 21:34:46 hi AnMaster 21:36:09 ais523, just about half an hour ago I was looking for something like "diff36", that is like diff takes 2 files diff3 takes 3 files, even better would be a diffn. I solved the issue in another way, but do you know any software which can diff n files? I may write my own one for the future if not 21:37:01 I've had a similar problem before 21:37:09 I found a utility called interdiff, which diffs diffs 21:37:15 repeatedly applying that and diff2 and diff3 works I think 21:37:28 although I'm not entirely sure if it works in all cases 21:37:32 ais523, diff2 *and* diff3? 21:37:38 yes 21:37:42 why? 21:37:43 because there's more than one way to do a diff4 21:37:53 the way you apply things depends on exactly what you're trying to do 21:38:01 combine 2 diff2? 21:38:10 well, what is a diff4? 21:38:25 all the 4 files side by side in a GUI showing differences in my case 21:38:35 oh, that's quite different from what I was doing 21:38:43 ais523, think something like "kompare" 21:38:48 but with 4 files side by side 21:38:50 I was trying to work out differences from C to D which weren't changed from A to B 21:38:56 or in my case 36 files 21:38:58 side by side 21:38:59 besides, a diff3 is not what you're describing 21:39:14 ais523, hm what exactly is a diff3 then 21:39:23 diff3 combines changes in a diff from A to B with changes in a diff from A to C 21:39:38 in other words, it merges two working versions given a base version 21:40:15 ais523, so what about the thing I want? 21:40:28 ais523, I want to inspect 36 outputs for differences, some differences are ok, some are not 21:40:37 and only manual inspection will work well sadly 21:40:49 do you have a base case to compare against? 21:40:54 if so, then just diff2 them all against the base case 21:41:04 hmm... actually, do you know about comm? 21:41:05 ais523, no clear base case no 21:41:18 ais523, and sure I know about comm, but I would like context 21:41:23 like in a -u diff 21:41:41 AnMaster: comm does provide context by default, although its output format is weird 21:41:51 it sounds like what you're trying to do now is like a multi-file comm with a saner output format 21:41:58 rather than a multi-file diff with a saner output format 21:42:05 ais523, basically I had mycology output from building 36 combinations of compile time options and compilers 21:42:16 mkdir $(for i in build_{,gc_}{,nothr_}{32,64}_{mud,gcc,gcc-346,icc,llvm}; do echo $i; done | sed '/gc.*_mud/d') 21:42:37 AnMaster: I suggest you construct a base case by hand which simply omits all the lines you expect to change 21:42:43 then diff everything against that 21:42:50 ais523, hm but I want to make sure the change is sane 21:42:56 yes, exactly 21:43:01 all the lines that change 21:43:05 and all the lines which aren't in the base case 21:43:08 show up in the diff 21:43:18 ais523, well what if one says "The time is 27 : 17 : 18" 21:43:21 sure it changes 21:43:25 but 27 would be invalid 21:43:26 AnMaster: well, that line isn't in the base case 21:43:34 so it shows up in every single diff 21:43:54 ais523, also thread/no-threading, hm 2 base cases 21:44:00 yes, ok 21:44:18 actually, why aren't you just inspecting the whole output? Because lots of it's boilerplate? 21:44:38 ais523, well I did a hackish and rather complex way of solving it, I did sed -i on all files to change any small differences to N 21:44:48 thus reducing the interesting info 21:44:53 after aroudn 40 sed expressions 21:45:01 so I could compare md5sum 21:45:21 still this is not a simple way of doing it 21:48:12 AnMaster: there is no simple way of doing it, mostly because you aren't entirely sure what you're doing 21:48:23 ais523, oh and this script proved quite useful in a backwards kind of way: http://rafb.net/p/K2KrwY85.html 21:48:49 ais523, I want to check if there are any "bad" output differences between lots of different builds of cfunge built with different combinations 21:48:52 of options 21:49:06 ais523, and that is just a few of the possible combinations 21:49:17 AnMaster: yes, but translating that into speak a computer will understand is not trivial 21:49:22 ais523, indeed 21:49:41 ais523, oh and if you know prolog well I think ehird had a prolog issue 21:49:46 maybe you can help him 21:50:00 2. The only two consecutive questions with identical answers are questions: 21:50:00 AnMaster: I thought ehird didn't believe in Prolog 21:50:00 bah that's just too hard. 21:50:00 to formulate. 21:50:02 No i did not. 21:50:14 It's not hard. 21:50:16 just tedious. 21:50:21 Adn I didn't have much of an attention span on it anyway. 21:50:43 ais523, it was about http://drunkmenworkhere.org/170 21:50:53 ais523, needs javascript 21:56:29 Huh. I went to reddit.com and saw my submission at #1. That was...unexpected. 21:56:39 ehird: is it still there? 21:56:45 Yeah. Might be #2 now. 21:56:52 main reddit, or proggit? 21:56:53 still #1! 21:56:54 Main. 21:57:05 Well, obviously it's at the top of proggit too. 21:57:24 well, that is major news, well done for being the first to submit it 21:57:31 ehird, heh first comment says "Not programming." 21:57:33 I agree 21:57:39 AnMaster: subreddits are communities, not tags 21:57:49 this has been stated by the team many, many times before but nobody listens 21:57:58 DRM is a very relevant issue to the -community- of /r/programming 21:57:58 ehird, well it would make more sense in "music" 21:58:03 no, it wouldn't 21:58:04 but also true 21:58:06 im such a horrible person 21:58:13 I like the reply which says it should be in religion, though 21:58:13 psygnisfive: yes. yes you are 21:58:22 ais523: indeed. 21:58:30 ive been spreading lies and deceit throughout the little conlang community i frequent 21:58:40 everything is lies and deceit so yous hould be ok 21:59:05 the other day i lied about how pol pot got his inspiration for his xenophobic policies from the khmer language's lack of tones compared to all the surrounding languages which have tones 21:59:31 horrific. 21:59:32 * ais523 reckons it'll end up twice on Slashdot, once in the Apple section and once in YRO 21:59:48 and just now i apparently convinced someone else that miscellaneous section of the skype eula that was showing up as just blocks on his screen was actually in a central african writing system called mfune block writing 22:00:05 how can you be so awful. 22:00:28 people are naive so i take advantage of it. 22:00:28 ais523: of course, apple are still charging 30c per song to "upgrade" the drmed files to non-drm 22:00:29 :D 22:00:30 By being a faggot 22:00:42 but they deserve what they get anyway for buying that 22:00:51 they do :D 22:00:58 ehird: charging to upgrade to non-DRM doesn't surprise me at all 22:01:11 in fact I guessed that before you told me, and even guessed the price point pretty accurately 22:01:25 they call it iTunes Plus because it sounds so much better than calling everything else iTunes Minus (- mark pilgrim) 22:01:30 im going to take these little lies to absurd extremes 22:01:39 to see how far i can go 22:01:42 I think I once convinced someone I was bill gates 22:01:54 ehird: that's quite impressive, really 22:01:59 ais523: they were an idiot, though. 22:02:06 was this online or in RL? 22:02:10 RL might be hard given the age difference 22:02:12 hahhahaha, online 22:02:18 also, I have a beard 22:02:22 which would make RL convincing hard 22:02:23 is it turing complete 22:02:36 ehird: no idea 22:02:42 probably, most sufficiently complex things are 22:02:50 probably a volume of empty space is TC 22:03:04 or indeed, uncomputable 22:03:30 hm 22:03:38 it's strange that the record labels agreed 22:03:38 not that many of you will be interested but 22:03:38 http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.php?p=658125#658125 22:03:43 AnMaster: not really. 22:03:50 amazon has been offering drm-free mp3s for like a year now 22:03:50 ehird, oh? What about RIAA? 22:04:05 also, the riaa are too busy eating babies 22:11:43 is reddit www.reddit.com? 22:13:17 i mean that's a finnish page for me, which feels kinda wtfy. 22:13:25 empty too 22:13:29 err 22:13:30 screenshot? 22:14:59 too complicated 22:15:10 oklofok: well 22:15:11 i wanna see 22:15:33 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p455455412.txt 22:15:49 dude 22:15:51 so not helpful. 22:16:27 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p455455412.txt 22:16:28 err 22:16:30 t��ll� ei n�yt� olevan mit��n. 22:16:31 what does that mean 22:16:42 it's a scrambled "seems to be nothing here" 22:16:47 ah. 22:16:52 well your browser is le fucked 22:16:58 :D 22:16:59 that's not how it looks 22:17:02 just change it to english 22:17:03 or sth 22:17:06 how? 22:17:13 umm change your windoze language to english/ 22:17:14 XD 22:17:27 there's just a little content, and that's clearly finnish 22:17:27 umm 22:17:40 there's nothing finnish about my windows except my keyboard layout 22:17:50 its detecting it from your ip then 22:17:50 hm 22:18:01 ask #reddit 22:18:02 poll: what is your favourite music format? 22:18:05 oh 22:18:05 oklofok: 22:18:08 probably. i was mainly wondering if it did that for, say, the swede, and he could tell me what to do. 22:18:09 http://en.reddit.com/ 22:18:21 AnMaster: lossless FLAC (but I use ALAC for iTunes), lossy ogg or aac 22:18:34 oklofok: en.reddit.com 22:18:36 try it 22:18:36 ALAC? I think it is called AAC? 22:18:40 AnMaster: no 22:18:40 ehird: that's in finnish too. 22:18:43 ehird, oh? 22:18:43 and empty. 22:18:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Lossless 22:18:48 i mean 22:18:50 ah 22:18:58 i've been to reddit 22:19:03 it hasn't done that 22:19:04 ehird, FLAC, OGG, WAW > * for me 22:19:06 ask #reddit :P 22:19:08 in that order 22:19:14 WAW? 22:19:23 ehird, to get everyone asking 22:19:24 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 22:19:31 ehird, no I don't really use it 22:19:35 wha tis waw 22:19:48 ehird indeed 22:19:51 what is it? 22:19:57 i dont know 22:20:12 ehird, I would think it is a merge of the two words wav and wow 22:20:14 not sure 22:20:17 and no idea why 22:20:31 also what about .au? 22:20:36 it seems like the worst format ever 22:20:42 nope. 22:20:44 audacity uses it internally 22:20:48 oh? 22:20:52 really hm 22:21:27 Although the format now supports many audio encoding formats, it remains associated with the µ-law logarithmic encoding. This encoding was native to the SPARCstation 1 hardware, where SunOS exposed the encoding to apps through the /dev/audio interface. This encoding and interface became a de facto standard for Unix sound. 22:21:38 /dev/audio is in the de-facto au format 22:21:58 hm 22:22:02 ehird, I have no such device 22:22:10 did you mean /dev/dsp? 22:22:12 no. 22:22:27 22:22 oklofok, ill give you an ip 22:22:27 wat 22:22:37 i wondered too 22:22:43 WHY THANK YOU FAWKESMULDER FOR THAT FRESH IP 22:22:48 oh ip of reddit 22:22:50 22:22 oklofok, just put it in the address bar of the browser 22:22:51 DNS fail 22:23:01 huh? 22:23:07 oklofok, you have dns issues? 22:23:12 no 22:23:16 #reddit is just retarded 22:23:18 then why... 22:23:31 i think fawkesmulder is computer illiterate but doesn't know it 22:24:40 i would've thought a browser would try to read that ip's 80 22:24:45 ehird, I get English reddit 22:24:53 oklofok, it does 22:26:24 AnMaster: uhhuh. then what's ehird bitching about, and what's the 400 about 22:26:37 AMAZING GREEN GREEN 22:26:42 oklofok: its http shit 22:26:44 Host: header 22:26:46 not specified in the req 22:26:50 so server go barf barf. 22:26:57 oklofok, what 400? 22:27:30 ehird, ah you mean missing host header right 22:28:17 ehird: i see. 22:29:01 -!- jix has joined. 22:51:20 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:56:41 night 22:58:51 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 23:35:26 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 2009-01-07: 01:02:59 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 02:02:10 hi bsmnt_bot 02:02:32 hi bsmnt_bot 02:02:33 welcome back 02:05:41 ~echo foo 02:05:51 ~raw privmsg #esoteric :foooop 02:05:51 foooop 02:06:16 butt 02:07:13 hawt 02:07:36 ooooh fuck 02:07:49 WHO SAID THAT 02:08:12 bsmnt_bot, are you a robot 02:08:37 Slereah_: bsmnt_bot is a long-standing bot in this channel 02:08:49 bsmntbombdood: does it still do Brainfuck? 02:08:51 i r real hooman! 02:08:56 i has feelings! 02:09:09 ais523 : but he usually shuts his trap 02:09:19 someone's sending ~raw to it in /msg 02:09:28 presumably bsmntbombdood, IIRC it doesn't work when other people do it 02:09:36 ~raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :Testing. 02:09:40 yep 02:09:57 Testing. 02:13:10 -!- ais523_ has joined. 02:13:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 02:13:32 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 02:41:44 ~raw privmsg #esoteric :+ul (~raw privmsg #esoteric :Dangerous!)S 02:46:18 MizardX: thutubot isn't here atm 02:46:37 also, I still don't think bsmnt_bot responds to other people's ~raws 02:46:43 I reckon bsmntbombdood sent it a copy of my ~raw in /msg to confuse people 02:47:03 +ul (~raw privmsg #esoteric :Dangerous!)S 02:47:18 wow he is laggy today 02:47:28 ~raw JOIN ##nomic 02:47:29 :P 02:47:48 * ais523 waits patiently for nothing to happen 02:48:09 ~exec "Syntax error 02:48:10 SyntaxError: EOL while scanning single-quoted string 02:48:33 that's the easiest way to tell, I wouldn't expect bsmnt_bot to do things out of order... 02:48:45 lol 02:49:43 ~exec self.raw("JOIN ##nomic") 02:49:50 ~exec self.raw("PART ##nomic") 02:49:55 I love how easy that is to circumvent. 02:50:00 kerlo: it worked 02:50:04 I know. 02:50:07 ah, you're in ##nomic too 02:51:51 ~exec sys.stdout("foo") 02:51:51 foo 02:51:55 ~exec sys.stdout(str("foo")) 02:51:55 foo 02:51:59 ~exec sys.stdout(repr("foo")) 02:52:00 'foo' 02:52:02 Aha! 02:52:08 someone find my BF interp in bsmnt-bot speak in the logs 02:52:15 I had it in a text file, but the whitespace got corrupted 02:52:28 (this is pretty much the direct cause of my hate for whitespace-sensitive languages) 02:52:46 ais523: programming over irc isn't exactly the usual usage case 02:52:52 well, no 02:52:54 except, it is for me 02:52:57 for some langs 02:53:02 ~exec (lambda x: sys.stdout(x + repr(x) + ')'))('~exec (lambda x: sys.stdout(x + repr(x) + \')\'))(') 02:53:03 ~exec (lambda x: sys.stdout(x + repr(x) + ')'))("~exec (lambda x: sys.stdout(x + repr(x) + ')'))(") 02:53:13 I have written more Python in files than over IRC 02:53:15 ~exec (lambda x: sys.stdout(x + repr(x) + ')'))("~exec (lambda x: sys.stdout(x + repr(x) + ')'))(") 02:53:15 but not by much 02:53:16 ~exec (lambda x: sys.stdout(x + repr(x) + ')'))("~exec (lambda x: sys.stdout(x + repr(x) + ')'))(") 02:53:23 kerlo: repr's too clever for your first quine to work 02:53:31 but that was pretty quick, well done 02:53:37 repr outclevered me! 02:53:53 Sometimes when a quine doesn't work, you can run its output instead. :-) 02:54:16 I was talking about the original quine, but that's such a true observation 02:54:30 ~exec print 'a'; print 'b' 02:54:32 * kerlo nods 02:54:40 MizardX: this is Python we're talking about... 02:55:04 ~exec exec("print 'a'\nprint 'b'") 02:55:15 but print won't do anything 02:55:26 ~exec exec("sys.stdout('a')\nsys.stdout('b')") 02:55:26 a 02:55:26 b 02:55:42 bsmntbombdood: by the way, have you ported bsmnt_bot to Python 3 yet? 02:55:44 ~exec sys.stdout(repr(locals())) 02:55:45 {'message': ':MizardX!n=MizardX@92.254.128.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec sys.stdout(repr(locals()))', 'r': <_sre.SRE_Match object at 0xf7c90068>, 'command': 'sys.stdout(repr(locals()))', 'self': <__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xf7c8b6ec>, 'env': ({'QuitIRC': , 'thread_info': , 'exec_global_tracer': ction exec_global_tracer at 0xf7c7db1c>, 'pprint': , 'StopHandlingCallbacks': , 're': , 'SysWrapper': , 'exec_local_tracer': , '__doc__': No 02:55:45 ne, 'math': , 'IRCbot': , 'args': {'ident': 'bsmnt', 'realname': 'bsmntbombdood bot', 'chan': ['#esoteric', '#esoteric-blah'], 'nick': 'bsmnt_bot', 'host': '85.188.1.26', 'exec_chans': ['#esoteric', '#baadf00d', '#esoteric-blah'], 'owner': 'bsmntbombdood!\\S*gavin@\\S*'}, '__b 02:55:50 uiltins__': , '__file__': '/bot/ircbot.py', 'inspect': , 'IRCFileWrapper': , 'sys': , '__name__': '__main__', 'copy': , 'types': 2.4/types.pyc'>, 'RemoveCallback': , 'socket': , 'thread': , 'StringIO': , 'os': , 'traceback': , 'bot': <__main__ 02:55:58 ais523: bsmnt_bot is in py2.4 02:55:58 * kerlo blinks 02:56:00 .IRCbot instance at 0xf7c8b6ec>, 'threading': , 'time': , 'pickle': , 'marshal': }, {...})} 02:56:09 ais523: i haven't looked at it since the 02:56:09 kerlo: introspection is fun 02:56:15 especially with introspection/IRC bot mixes 02:56:28 I wonder how QuitIRC works. 02:56:30 fun fact: it's possible to get gprolog to dump all the strings it knows of 02:56:34 ~exec sys.stdout(3) 02:56:34 3 02:56:38 ~exec sys.stdout(QuitIRC) 02:56:38 __main__.QuitIRC 02:56:41 Lovely. 02:56:44 some of them are filenames of files on the computers that built it 02:56:49 ~exec sys.stdout(dir(QuitIRC)) 02:56:49 ['__doc__', '__module__'] 02:56:58 ~exec sys.stdout(dir(QuitIRC.__module__)) 02:56:58 ['__add__', '__class__', '__contains__', '__delattr__', '__doc__', '__eq__', '__ge__', '__getattribute__', '__getitem__', '__getnewargs__', '__getslice__', '__gt__', '__hash__', '__init__', '__le__', '__len__', '__lt__', '__mod__', '__mul__', '__ne__', '__new__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__rmod__', '__rmul__', '__setattr__', '__str__', 'capitalize', 'cen 02:56:58 ter', 'count', 'decode', 'encode', 'endswith', 'expandtabs', 'find', 'index', 'isalnum', 'isalpha', 'isdigit', 'islower', 'isspace', 'istitle', 'isupper', 'join', 'ljust', 'lower', 'lstrip', 'replace', 'rfind', 'rindex', 'rjust', 'rsplit', 'rstrip', 'split', 'splitlines', 'startswith', 'strip', 'swapcase', 'title', 'translate', 'upper', 'zfill'] 02:57:01 kerlo: just run it loser 02:57:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:57:12 ~exec QuitIRC() 02:57:22 Did it quit IRC? 02:57:43 naming convention says it's a class 02:57:50 ~exec sys.stdout('No.') 02:57:50 No. 02:58:10 ~exec QuitIRC.__init__() 02:58:13 AttributeError: class QuitIRC has no attribute '__init__' 02:58:29 ~exec QuitIRC('baroo?') 02:58:29 TypeError: this constructor takes no arguments 02:58:32 Okay. 02:58:48 ~exec sys.stdout(sys.version) 02:58:48 2.4.3 (#1, Oct 25 2006, 21:45:16) 02:58:49 [GCC 4.1.1 (Gentoo 4.1.1)] 02:58:58 kerlo: join #bsmnt_bot_errors if you're trying to do proper development on bsmnt_bot 02:59:14 ~exec sys.stdout(repr(sys.version)) 02:59:15 '2.4.3 (#1, Oct 25 2006, 21:45:16) \n[GCC 4.1.1 (Gentoo 4.1.1)]' 02:59:19 Gasp. 02:59:26 what? 02:59:28 I like doing revgenos in the room with the Castle wand 02:59:32 wait, wrong channel 02:59:45 class QuitIRC: 02:59:46 pass 02:59:54 kerlo: QuitIRC is an exception 02:59:59 Oh. 03:00:02 Well, that's boring. 03:00:03 you raise it in a callback when you want to quit 03:00:21 ~exec QuitIRC.__init__ = lambda: bot.raw('QUIT') 03:00:26 ....no 03:00:34 Mm. 03:00:40 ~exec raise QuitIRC 03:00:41 TypeError: () takes no arguments (1 given) 03:00:50 ....no 03:00:56 ~exer QuitIRC() 03:01:04 ~exec QuitIRC() 03:01:04 TypeError: () takes no arguments (1 given) 03:01:16 ~exec QuitIRC.__init__ = lambda *x: bot.raw('QUIT') 03:01:18 ~exec self.register_raw(r".*quit1234.*", lambda *args:raise QuitIRC) 03:01:18 SyntaxError: invalid syntax 03:01:30 oh right 03:01:37 ~exec QuitIRC() 03:01:37 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit. 03:01:40 Whew. 03:01:45 python is dumb, you can't have statements in a lambda 03:01:47 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 03:01:56 kerlo: you are doing it wrong 03:02:15 On the contrary, any way of doing it is doing it right. 03:02:29 It's Python, so you can just say 'import ai' and it will automatically optimize everything. 03:02:39 ~ps 03:02:39 0: 'self.handle_callback(message, m, i)', 0.00 seconds 03:02:48 lol i even adding multitasking support 03:03:18 ~exec while 1: __import__('time').sleep(60) 03:03:22 ~ps 03:03:22 0: "while 1: __import__('time').sleep(60)", 3.96 seconds 03:03:22 1: 'self.handle_callback(message, m, i)', 0.00 seconds 03:03:27 Lovely. 03:03:45 ~exec sys.stdout(os.getcwd()) 03:03:45 / 03:04:08 * oerjan recalls something about "from future import". wouldn't that be more appropriate? 03:04:22 from __future__ import put_some_new_feature_here 03:04:34 ~ps 03:04:34 0: "while 1: __import__('time').sleep(60)", 75.87 seconds 03:04:34 1: 'self.handle_callback(message, m, i)', 0.00 seconds 03:04:37 ~kill 0 03:04:42 ~ps 03:04:42 0: "while 1: __import__('time').sleep(60)", 83.81 seconds, killed 03:04:42 1: 'self.handle_callback(message, m, i)', 0.00 seconds 03:04:43 "from __future__ import braces" is a standard running joke in Python, it seems 03:04:53 Cool. 03:04:54 i remember that taking some hacking 03:04:54 ~ps 03:04:54 0: "while 1: __import__('time').sleep(60)", 96.32 seconds, killed 03:04:55 1: 'self.handle_callback(message, m, i)', 0.00 seconds 03:04:58 Running while killed. 03:05:07 kerlo: it has to wait for the sleep to end 03:05:07 Just wait 10 seconds. 03:05:10 ~ps 03:05:10 0: "while 1: __import__('time').sleep(60)", 112.05 seconds, killed 03:05:10 1: 'self.handle_callback(message, m, i)', 0.00 seconds 03:05:19 ~ps 03:05:20 0: 'self.handle_callback(message, m, i)', 0.00 seconds 03:05:23 Yay. 03:05:43 * oerjan wondered why xkcd didn't use it in the alt text here: http://xkcd.com/521/ 03:06:24 ~exec sys.stdout(os.popen('ls').read()) 03:07:23 ais523: except iirc from __future__ wasn't _just_ a joke, there were some features actually using it... or was i just duped? 03:07:38 there are some features using it 03:07:43 the from braces is a joke 03:07:53 that much is obvious 03:07:57 but genuinely it can be used to request features that are scheduled for future versions 03:08:02 and are in this version, but not on by default 03:08:25 sort of like Perl's very-slightly-backward-incompatible operators 03:08:33 ~exec sys.stdout('Y%sn%sconozc%scom%snosotr%s d%s som%s l%s lob%s'%'o ','o ','o ','o ','os','os','os','os','os') 03:08:33 TypeError: not enough arguments for format string 03:08:38 ~exec sys.stdout('Y%sn%sconozc%scom%snosotr%s d%s som%s l%s lob%s'%'o ','o ','o ','o ','os','os','os','os','os','os') 03:08:39 TypeError: not enough arguments for format string 03:08:39 ~exec sys.stdout(repr(dir(__import__('__future__')))) 03:08:44 kerlo: you need an extra pair of parens 03:08:48 ['CO_FUTURE_DIVISION', 'CO_GENERATOR_ALLOWED', 'CO_NESTED', '_Feature', '__all__', '__builtins__', '__doc__', '__file__', '__name__', 'all_feature_names', 'division', 'generators', 'nested_scopes'] 03:08:50 around the right-hand arguments to % 03:08:53 ~exec sys.stdout('Y%sn%sconozc%scom%snosotr%s d%s som%s l%s lob%s'%('o ','o ','o ','o ','os','os','os','os','os')) 03:08:53 Yo no conozco como nosotros dos somos los lobos 03:09:08 Now all I need to do is figure out how to make this compression algorithm actually make it smaller. 03:10:02 ('o ',)*4 + ('os',)*5 03:10:25 Does that work? 03:10:46 Anyway, everyone knows /// is the best compression format. 03:10:57 ~exec sys.stdout(repr(('o ',)*4 + ('os',)*5)) 03:10:57 ('o ', 'o ', 'o ', 'o ', 'os', 'os', 'os', 'os', 'os') 03:12:15 /#/! //@/o //!/os/Y@n@conozc@com@n!otr#d#som#l#lob! 03:12:22 Who cares if it's longer than the original? :-P 03:14:12 kerlo: that looks vaguely like Perl 03:14:14 but it isn't 03:14:16 what lang is it? 03:14:20 /// 03:14:33 oh, ofc 03:14:44 except don't you re-replace the !s you replace the #s with? 03:14:54 I do, don't I? 03:28:18 grr i can't find my pickle extension 03:30:41 oh i found it 03:30:48 ~exec self.print_callbacks(sys.stdout) 03:30:49 [('^PING (.*)$', 'pong'), 03:30:49 ('^:bsmntbombdood!\\S*gavin@\\S* PRIVMSG \\S* :~quit ?(.*)', 'do_quit'), 03:30:49 ('^:bsmntbombdood!\\S*gavin@\\S* PRIVMSG \\S* :~raw (.*)', 'do_raw'), 03:30:49 ('^\\S+ PRIVMSG \\S+ :~ctcp (\\S+) (.+)', 'do_ctcp'), 03:30:50 ('^:bsmntbombdood!\\S*gavin@\\S* PRIVMSG (\\S*) :~pexec (.*)', 'do_exec'), 03:30:51 ('\\S+ PRIVMSG (#esoteric|#baadf00d|#esoteric-blah|#bsmnt_bot_errors) :~exec (.*)', 03:30:52 'do_exec'), 03:30:54 ('\\S+ PRIVMSG \\S+ :~ps', 'do_ps'), 03:30:56 ('^\\S+ PRIVMSG (#esoteric|#baadf00d|#esoteric-blah|#bsmnt_bot_errors) :~kill (.*)', 03:30:58 'do_kill'), 03:31:00 ('^ERROR :Closing Link:.*', '')] 03:31:29 bsmntbombdood: that's pretty ridiculous security, you care about a nick of bsmntbombdood and a username of gavin? 03:31:36 I can understand securing on just nick 03:31:42 ais523: ? 03:31:48 but nick (which is changeable) + username (which is changeable) doesn't add an extra layer of security 03:31:53 everyone is able to ~exec 03:32:02 I mean, for things like ~quit 03:32:04 that was probably added before i chrooted 03:32:10 caring about the username as well as the nick seems a bit silly 03:32:17 ~exec __import__("sys").quit() 03:32:17 AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'quit' 03:32:24 ~exec __import__("sys").exit(1) 03:32:37 errr 03:32:48 ~exec do_quit() 03:32:48 NameError: name 'do_quit' is not defined 03:32:58 hmm... 03:33:17 ~exec self_do_quit('', '') 03:33:17 NameError: name 'self_do_quit' is not defined 03:33:21 ~exec self.do_quit('', '') 03:33:22 AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'group' 03:34:13 ~exec self.disconnect("bye") 03:34:14 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit ("bye"). 03:34:16 that's better 03:34:16 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 03:34:32 I admit that the security's pointless in the first place 03:34:48 ais523: like i said, that was added before i put it in a chroot 03:36:18 thutubot isn't chrooted 03:36:28 do_run_around_screaming 03:36:31 but I do run it in taint mode 03:36:34 ~exec self.register_raw(r".*asdfgg.*", lambda *args: self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :my pickle still works!!!")) 03:36:39 asdfgg 03:36:40 NameError: global name 'self' is not defined 03:36:43 so in theory people can't do anything with it but print stuff to stdout 03:37:06 (Thutubot's run via compiling to Perl, and interpreting the result) 03:37:17 ais523: that's effecient 03:37:25 ~quit 03:37:25 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Client Quit). 03:37:27 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 03:37:34 ~exec self.register_raw(r".*asdfgg.*", lambda *args: bot.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :my pickle still works!!!")) 03:37:37 asdfgg 03:37:37 my pickle still works!!! 03:37:40 ~exec sys.stdout((lambda s,r=[],o=[None]:reduce(lambda p,(i,s):[lambda:reduce(lambda s,(o,n):s.replace(o,n),r,s),lambda:o.__setitem__(0,s),lambda:r.append((o[0],s))][i%3]()or p,enumerate(s.split('/'))))("/#/! //@/o //!/os/Y@n@conozc@com@n!otr#d#som#l#lob!")) 03:37:40 Yo no conozco como nosotros dos somos los lobos 03:37:44 bsmntbombdood: Thutu is not exactly efficient in the first place 03:37:53 ~exec self.save_callbacks("penis") 03:37:53 IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: 'penis' 03:37:57 it's even slower than Ruby 03:38:01 oh snap! 03:38:19 ~exec sys.stdout(sys.ls("/bot/")) 03:38:20 AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'ls' 03:38:24 ~exec sys.stdout(os.ls("/bot/")) 03:38:27 AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'ls' 03:38:32 ~exec sys.stdout(os.dir("/bot/")) 03:38:39 AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'dir' 03:38:45 wtf is the command i'm thinking of? 03:38:47 it's rather convenient for esolangers that IRCbots only need to do stdin -> stdout IO... 03:38:54 yes 03:39:12 oerjan: real bots use real sockets 03:39:14 that's the only reason Thutubot's possible 03:39:17 like mine 03:39:31 well, I could use PSOX 03:39:45 real bots are written in machine code! 03:39:53 but that's written in Python, it would start a flamewar if it was hooked up to a Perl interpreter 03:40:11 a flamewar all inside itself 03:40:55 wow my code is pretty ugly 03:41:06 no wonder i never went back to bsmnt_bot 03:41:19 http://xkcd.com/378/ 03:41:38 also, bsmnt_bot blocks when it should 03:41:41 needs moar threads 03:42:22 write in Thue, you get multithreadedness for free 03:42:47 (longtime Thue or Thutu programmers will be aware that it's pretty easy to accidentally make a program multithreaded when you don't mean to...) 03:42:57 easier in Thue than in Thutu, though 03:43:19 is thue eso? 03:43:30 yes 03:43:33 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thue 03:44:29 uuuh 03:44:35 you didn't write an ircbot in that did you? 03:44:41 no, I wrote one in Thutu 03:44:43 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thutu 03:44:46 which is also eso 03:46:23 bsmntbombdood: if you're interested, http://filebin.ca/yzarrj/ul.t is an Underload interp I wrote in Thue 03:46:42 pretty repetitive due to the lack of regexen 03:48:55 bsmntbombdood: and http://pastebin.ca/1302138 is the source code to Thutubot 04:03:24 ais523, you're crazy 04:03:24 :) 04:03:36 psygnisfive: for which of those programs? 04:03:41 all of them :D 04:04:02 all this is making me very confident about the Great Underlambda Project, when I get round to it 04:04:23 which is a project to make compilers to Underlambda from as many known esolangs as possible 04:04:32 and compilers from Underlambda to as many known TC esolangs as possible 04:04:36 thus making them all interconvertible 04:04:51 Underlambda interps in various langs will also be included 04:05:08 ...and Underlambda is an Underload-based language I am currently designing to work well in this project 04:12:04 ais523: lol nice 04:12:23 whats underlambda ais 04:12:33 psygnisfive: an Underload-like lang I haven't finished yet 04:12:39 and whose spec keeps changing and is mostly stored in my head 04:12:41 whats underload 04:12:46 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload 04:12:54 stop it with your logic 04:13:12 lmfao 04:13:13 Underlambda is higher-level, but compiles into a subset of itself that's slightly lower-level than Underload 04:13:24 the quin is (:aSS):aSS 04:13:25 XD 04:13:42 which is an important trick to be able to compile both into it and out of it easily 04:13:47 ^ul (:aSS):aSS 04:13:47 (:aSS):aSS 04:13:58 :D 04:14:27 * oerjan is amazed, no SHOCKED that psygnisfive hasn't grabbed onto this yet 04:14:40 *before 04:14:52 i think the aSS part is completely irrelevant. lol 04:14:55 I was making ass jokes of underload before it was cool 04:15:01 oh no, its not 04:15:03 is it? 04:15:09 oooh its not :o 04:15:16 hah. 04:15:17 :D 04:15:36 that's some IMPORTANT ass 04:15:52 psygnisfive: the aSS stuff is coincidence 04:16:05 suuuuuuure 04:16:10 the quine didn't even look like that in Overload, it just turned out like that once I tarpitted it into Underload 04:16:24 SO YOU SAY 04:16:43 BUT YOUR SUBCONSCIOUS DISAGREES 04:16:57 ais's ass 04:17:06 my subconcious must have been working on Underload way before me, in that case 04:17:16 but of course 04:17:37 it's a platonic idea. 04:18:09 ~exec sys.stdout('privmsg #esoteric :^ul (~exec sys.stdout("privmsg #esoteric ::P)S")') 04:18:09 privmsg #esoteric :^ul (~exec sys.stdout("privmsg #esoteric ::P)S") 04:18:18 FAIL 04:18:24 ~exec sys.stdout('^ul (~exec sys.stdout(":P)S")') 04:18:24 ^ul (~exec sys.stdout(":P)S") 04:18:42 MizardX: you want an extra S at the end of that 04:18:57 or something like that 04:19:10 ~exec sys.stdout('^ul (~exec sys.stdout(":P"))S') 04:19:10 ^ul (~exec sys.stdout(":P"))S 04:19:10 ~exec sys.stdout(":P") 04:19:10 :P 04:20:56 lol 04:22:37 do you want me to create a botloop again? 04:22:40 or will I get in trouble for that? 04:22:44 do it! :o 04:22:58 let me think, I haven't done it with bsmnt_bot/fungot yet 04:22:58 ais523: hitler wasn't that young either true some people found his statements about jews amusing, and it wouldn't show that the " pc" stands for a system this old, there is no 04:23:10 fungot: Godwin's law invoked, you lose 04:23:11 ais523: nope, he only serves his country, democratic or fnord. user:ted wilkested wilkes 20:46, 6 december 2005 ( utc) 04:23:14 can i put a boner array in my butt loop? 04:23:24 You sure can 04:23:56 the most elegant programming language ever! 04:24:01 ironically, it looks exactly like c 04:24:12 what, Underload? 04:24:16 That's because C is like a boner in your butt 04:24:23 no, the language with boner arrays and butt loops 04:24:30 that comic is pretty stupid 04:24:33 it is 04:24:46 because they can just change the keywords and the language is just as elegant... 04:24:48 obviously the most elegant programming language ever is either scheme or haskell. 04:25:05 also, the most elegant programming language ever can't look like C 04:25:08 psygnisfive: or Prolog 04:25:16 which is elegant a different way 04:25:20 it is indeed 04:25:37 unification confuses me tho 04:25:44 simple binding doesnt but unification does 04:28:13 ~exec (lambda s='~exec (lambda s=%r: sys.stdout(s%%s))()\n': sys.stdout(s%s))() 04:28:14 ~exec (lambda s='~exec (lambda s=%r: sys.stdout(s%%s))()\n': sys.stdout(s%s))() 04:28:28 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*):^ 04:28:37 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:28:37 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:28:37 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:28:37 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:28:38 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:28:38 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:28:38 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:28:38 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:28:38 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:28:38 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:28:38 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:28:38 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:28:39 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:28:40 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:28:40 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:28:42 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:28:42 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:28:44 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:28:44 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:28:45 someone break the loop! 04:28:46 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:28:46 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:28:48 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:28:48 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:28:50 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:28:50 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:28:52 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:28:52 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:28:54 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:28:54 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:28:55 ~quit 04:28:56 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:28:56 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:28:58 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:28:58 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:29:00 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:29:00 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:29:01 hahaha 04:29:02 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:29:02 bsmntbombdood: break the loop, please? 04:29:02 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:29:04 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:29:04 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:29:04 ~ps 04:29:06 0: 'self.handle_callback(message, m, i)', 0.00 seconds 04:29:06 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:29:08 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:29:08 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:29:10 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:29:10 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:29:12 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:29:12 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:29:13 oh balls 04:29:14 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:29:14 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:29:16 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:29:16 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:29:18 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:29:18 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:29:19 bsmntbombdood: just ~quit 04:29:20 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:29:20 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:29:22 ^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^ 04:29:22 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") 04:29:23 ~quit 04:29:23 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:29:25 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 04:29:33 well, it worked 04:29:38 second try, I forgot the S to output first try 04:29:40 so you just type ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (a(:^)*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S):^""") ? 04:29:44 yes 04:29:46 thats craaaazy! 04:29:47 i remember creating an epiiiic quine in #scheme 04:29:54 so you mean if i just did...... 04:29:55 well, I started on fungot not bsmnt_bot 04:29:56 ais523: 87 113 d fr-200m fnord) ms (9/ 2-) 0 kev. 04:30:00 -!- bsmntbombdood has left (?). 04:30:00 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:30:00 because that one's shorter 04:30:02 no im kidding i wouldnt. :P 04:30:49 I love Underload so much for writing quines... 04:30:53 that thing went on for like 15 minutes 04:30:58 it's an excellent lang for the purpose 04:33:22 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:33:23 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 04:33:24 bsmntbombdood: for a value of 15 close to 2 04:33:39 oerjan: nuh uh 04:33:39 or wait you mean in #scheme? 04:33:46 oerjan: in #scheme 04:34:10 you'd think scheme people would be accustomed to handling quines 04:34:11 i wonder where the code for that is 04:34:30 bsmntbombdood: was it a loop between two bots? 04:34:39 well, I could use PSOX 04:34:40 Oh? 04:34:53 ais523: either 2 or 3 04:34:55 What's this about PSOX? 04:35:03 Sgeo: talking about how IRC using stdin/stdout was the only way that Thutubot could work 04:35:13 and then remembering that PSOX would have provided an alternative if more streams were needed 04:35:28 well, stdin/stdout can be mapped to the IRC streams, they generally aren't IRC by default 04:35:37 ~exec bot.raw("QUIT") 04:35:37 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit. 04:35:40 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 04:35:50 oerjan: l337 04:35:55 But since you don't need extra streams, you're not using PSOX.. 04:35:59 yes 04:36:01 just checking if i remembered it 04:36:10 not to mention that handling NULs is a bit tricky in most langs 04:36:12 in case someone else does a bot loop 04:36:29 they can be expressed as \x0 in Thutu, just I don't know if putting them inside strings drives Perl mad 04:37:34 If there's interest, I might work on an update to PSOX to allow langs restricted to alphanumerics to work with it 04:38:05 the eso world probably needs something like PSOX. However, all attempts to do so seem to have ended in failure, for some reason 04:38:11 PESOIX; EsoAPI... 04:38:32 ais523, lack of others expressing interest is the reason I abandoned PSOX 04:38:48 yes, it's hard to get anyone to express interest in the eso world 04:39:00 and most of the sort of things I work on, PSOX-stuff is irrelevant 04:39:14 because I'm more interested in paradigms, which don't normally care about I/O 04:39:25 I think everyone in the eso world lost interest 04:40:39 * Sgeo is reading a webcomic with 1 comic/day since before the universe began 04:40:50 Sgeo: mezzacotta? 04:40:57 it's been linked here several times in the past 04:41:06 and I read it, and ehird read it once and probably still does 04:41:13 and lots of other people here do too, I reckon 04:41:17 Oh 04:41:28 Yes, I was referring to mezzacotta 04:41:38 ~exec (lambda n,s1='^ul (%s)S',s2='~exec (lambda s1=%r,s2=%r:sys.stdout.write(s1%%s2%%(s1,s2,n-1) if n else "stop"))(%d)': sys.stdout.write(s1%s2%(s1,s2,n-1) if n else "stop"))(3) 04:41:38 SyntaxError: invalid syntax 04:41:45 geh 04:41:51 MizardX: what is that program? 04:42:13 are you attempting a bot loop with trivial Underload rather than trivial Python? 04:42:23 ^ 04:42:41 ~exec (lambda n,s1='^ul (%s)S',s2='~exec (lambda s1=%r,s2=%r:sys.stdout(s1%%s2%%(s1,s2,n-1) if n else "stop"))(%d)': sys.stdout(s1%s2%(s1,s2,n-1) if n else "stop"))(3) 04:42:42 SyntaxError: invalid syntax 04:42:42 (that's a pointer to where the syntax error is, btw, it probably only works in fixed-width font though and my client's using variable-width) 04:42:58 ^ 04:43:14 mirc strips repeated whitespace 04:43:21 oh, not particularly useful then... 04:43:22 my question is, can you make a loop where _both_ sides do copying 04:43:46 oerjan: it's surely possible, but wouldn't that result in exponential growth? 04:43:53 or would you delete one of the copies on each side? 04:44:16 well the copied part would be the execution of the other... 04:44:57 ~exec (lambda n,s1='^ul (%s)S',s2='~exec (lambda s1=%r,s2=%r:sys.stdout.write(n and s1%%s2%%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(%d)': sys.stdout.write(n and s1%s2%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(3) 04:44:57 ^ul (~exec (lambda s1='^ul (%s)S',s2='~exec (lambda s1=%r,s2=%r:sys.stdout.write(n and s1%%s2%%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(%d)':sys.stdout.write(n and s1%s2%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(2))S 04:44:57 ~exec (lambda s1='^ul (%s)S',s2='~exec (lambda s1=%r,s2=%r:sys.stdout.write(n and s1%%s2%%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(%d)':sys.stdout.write(n and s1%s2%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(2) 04:44:57 NameError: global name 'n' is not defined 04:45:11 huh 04:45:17 ~exec (lambda n,s1='^ul (%s)S',s2='~exec (lambda n,s1=%r,s2=%r:sys.stdout.write(n and s1%%s2%%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(%d)': sys.stdout.write(n and s1%s2%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(3) 04:45:17 ^ul (~exec (lambda n,s1='^ul (%s)S',s2='~exec (lambda n,s1=%r,s2=%r:sys.stdout.write(n and s1%%s2%%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(%d)':sys.stdout.write(n and s1%s2%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(2))S 04:45:17 ~exec (lambda n,s1='^ul (%s)S',s2='~exec (lambda n,s1=%r,s2=%r:sys.stdout.write(n and s1%%s2%%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(%d)':sys.stdout.write(n and s1%s2%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(2) 04:45:18 ^ul (~exec (lambda n,s1='^ul (%s)S',s2='~exec (lambda n,s1=%r,s2=%r:sys.stdout.write(n and s1%%s2%%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(%d)':sys.stdout.write(n and s1%s2%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(1))S 04:45:18 ~exec (lambda n,s1='^ul (%s)S',s2='~exec (lambda n,s1=%r,s2=%r:sys.stdout.write(n and s1%%s2%%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(%d)':sys.stdout.write(n and s1%s2%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(1) 04:45:18 ^ul (~exec (lambda n,s1='^ul (%s)S',s2='~exec (lambda n,s1=%r,s2=%r:sys.stdout.write(n and s1%%s2%%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(%d)':sys.stdout.write(n and s1%s2%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(0))S 04:45:18 ~exec (lambda n,s1='^ul (%s)S',s2='~exec (lambda n,s1=%r,s2=%r:sys.stdout.write(n and s1%%s2%%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(%d)':sys.stdout.write(n and s1%s2%(s1,s2,n-1) or "stop"))(0) 04:45:18 stop 04:45:42 aha, a terminating botloop 04:45:43 that was what I was trying to do 04:45:47 Is the mezzacotta algorithm public? 04:45:51 now I have to write one in Underload 04:45:59 Sgeo: no 04:47:40 It's supposed to be gibberish more often than not, and the only way of finding good ones is to look at the top rated? 04:47:52 essentially 04:48:16 i feel it has deteriorated since the start though, not enough people voting 04:48:39 or maybe not enough people looking for new ones 04:48:46 So the algorithm doesn't check to make sure the responses are semi-coherent or obey any sort of grammar? 04:49:14 there are several characters, some of which look at previous speech 04:49:36 some of the characters are not _intended_ to be coherent 04:50:08 Where does it get "previous speech" from? 04:50:16 And where can I get an FAQ on all this? 04:50:18 er the previous panels 04:50:36 you could look at the forum discussion, there is no FAQ 04:50:50 as i said the algorithm is not publicized 04:51:53 anything known is just deduced from the examples 04:52:47 you could say the characters resemble the themes in fungot, some of them 04:52:48 oerjan: deleted the word ' ' av". ( i'd change it but although i've made a report to fnord for fnord 04:53:38 there's an eliza psychologist program, a mad scientist, someone quoting the D&D player's handbook or something like that 04:53:51 How is it that there are two good comics in 9999999999999 BC? 04:54:16 Also, where are the forums? 04:54:22 since it's the first year, someone went to the trouble of looking through all of them 04:54:55 ^ul (:*:*:*):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~*~**(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*)~^:^ 04:55:04 ^ul (:*:*:*):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~*~**(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:55:04 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul :((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~*~**(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^!!()()********::::::::""") 04:55:04 ^ul :((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~*~**(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^!!()()********:::::::: 04:55:04 ...out of stack! 04:55:17 ^ul (:*:*:*):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~*~*~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:55:17 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul !!()()********:::::::::((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~*~*~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:55:17 ^ul !!()()********:::::::::((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~*~*~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:55:17 ...out of stack! 04:55:30 -!- moozilla has joined. 04:55:37 ^ul (:*:*:*):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:55:37 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (::::::::!!()()********):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:55:38 ^ul (::::::::!!()()********):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:55:38 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (:::::::!!()()*******):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:55:38 ^ul (:::::::!!()()*******):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:55:38 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (::::::!!()()******):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:55:38 ^ul (::::::!!()()******):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:55:38 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (:::::!!()()*****):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:55:39 ^ul (:::::!!()()*****):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:55:40 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (::::!!()()****):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:55:41 ^ul (::::!!()()****):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:55:43 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (:::!!()()***):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:55:44 ^ul (:::!!()()***):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:55:46 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (::!!()()**):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:55:47 ^ul (::!!()()**):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:55:49 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (:!!()()*):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:55:50 ^ul (:!!()()*):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:56:01 and there we have it, a terminating botloop 04:56:05 where the Underlambda part does the counting 04:56:16 * ais523 makes it twice as long 04:56:21 ^ul (:*:*:*:*):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:56:21 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (::::::::::::::::!!()()****************):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:56:21 ^ul (::::::::::::::::!!()()****************):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:56:21 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (:::::::::::::::!!()()***************):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:56:21 ^ul (:::::::::::::::!!()()***************):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:56:22 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (::::::::::::::!!()()**************):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:56:22 ^ul (::::::::::::::!!()()**************):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:56:22 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (:::::::::::::!!()()*************):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:56:22 ^ul (:::::::::::::!!()()*************):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:56:24 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (::::::::::::!!()()************):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:56:24 ^ul (::::::::::::!!()()************):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:56:27 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (:::::::::::!!()()***********):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:56:27 ^ul (:::::::::::!!()()***********):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:56:30 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (::::::::::!!()()**********):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:56:30 ^ul (::::::::::!!()()**********):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:56:33 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (:::::::::!!()()*********):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:56:33 ^ul (:::::::::!!()()*********):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:56:36 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (::::::::!!()()********):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:56:36 ^ul (::::::::!!()()********):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:56:39 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (:::::::!!()()*******):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:56:39 ^ul (:::::::!!()()*******):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:56:42 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (::::::!!()()******):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:56:42 ^ul (::::::!!()()******):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:56:45 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (:::::!!()()*****):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:56:45 ^ul (:::::!!()()*****):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:56:48 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (::::!!()()****):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:56:48 ^ul (::::!!()()****):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:56:51 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (:::!!()()***):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:56:51 ^ul (:::!!()()***):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:56:54 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (::!!()()**):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:56:54 ^ul (::!!()()**):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:56:57 ~exec sys.stdout("""^ul (:!!()()*):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^""") 04:56:57 ^ul (:!!()()*):((!())~^):*^(a(~^:^)*(:((!())~^):*^)~*~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**a~*(^ul )~*(")::**:(~)~a*^**a(~exec sys.stdout)~*S)~^:^ 04:57:54 bsmnt_bot! 04:57:57 Sgeo: huh, there doesn't seem to be a forum link from the main comic 04:58:01 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive. 04:58:03 lol 04:58:07 -!- metazilla has joined. 04:58:15 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 04:58:17 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 04:58:19 bdmntbombdood, remind me 04:58:25 do you like cock? 04:58:31 and, do you like vagina? 04:58:42 and simultaneously, do you like girls? do you like boys? 04:59:01 Ask him directly if he'll fuck you. 04:59:22 Sgeo: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/index.php 05:00:02 slereah_: i dont want him to. i just cant remember what bend he is. 05:00:02 it's a forum for several webcomics, the mezzacotta ones are the third sublist 05:00:17 There are .. 2 threads in the mezzacotta forums on there 05:00:31 for some reason i have the feeling hes either not straight, or has exceptionally odd fetishes. 05:00:43 Sgeo: probably because they aren't linked from the comic itself 05:00:55 Sgeo: whoops, it seems it's set to expire 05:01:22 or what ais523 said 05:04:09 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:04:33 -!- moozilla has joined. 05:05:15 Sgeo: ah, the forums were only linked from a blog post, which is buried a long way down 05:05:35 well it's _supposed_ to be half-baked :D 05:06:18 oerjan: what do you think of my terminating botloop, by the way? 05:06:29 fine, fine 05:06:47 I'm quite proud of that given that I wrote it at 4:55am 05:32:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("Succubus"). 05:51:16 hey guys i saw a cool datastructure 05:51:18 http://www.cs.uwaterloo.ca/research/tr/1999/09/CS-99-09.pdf 05:51:46 similar to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashed_array_tree 05:53:03 gregorr are you here? 05:54:21 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:54:24 -!- moozilla has joined. 06:01:39 AnMaster: I know you're asleep now and I ought to be too, but I've finally started to review your C-INTERCAL patch submissions 06:06:32 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:06:34 -!- metazilla has joined. 06:17:27 ais523: he should be getting up about now anyway 06:17:54 * ais523 laughs at oerjan's quit reason 06:52:57 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:02:45 hmm 07:02:55 i want to try some evolutionary programming 07:02:59 on simple tasks 07:03:19 to try and create something nearly inscrutable, but simple, which solves some simple problem 07:05:30 and then reverse engineer the solution 07:51:33 wow, when hunting down the HAVE_SYS_INTERPRETER bug, I tried Googling 07:51:55 it seems that C-INTERCAL is the top hit for autoconf HAVE_PROG_SH, and the second hit for autoconf HAVE_SYS_INTERPRETER 07:52:03 no wonder it isn't a high priority for the autconf developers... 07:54:49 it is very very /very/ INTERCAL to use a documented feature of autoconf to check for something that ought to be checked for but nobody bothers 07:54:54 pity they deprecated it 07:54:59 incidentally: http://members.cox.net/stefanor/intercal.vim 07:57:05 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:48:32 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 09:01:25 ais523, morning 09:01:31 morning 09:01:32 ais523, hi 09:01:34 right 09:01:36 or very late night, depending on your point of view 09:01:37 nice 09:01:56 ais523, 10:01 isn't "night" in any meaning of the work 09:01:57 word* 09:01:57 * ais523 suddenly wonders the wisdom in checking for sh in an autoconf-based build system 09:01:58 IMO 09:02:05 AnMaster: it is if you didn't go to sleep in the meantime... 09:02:11 * ais523 suddenly wonders the wisdom in checking for sh in an autoconf-based build system <-- agreed 09:02:25 the reason it was in there was that I used to have a bypass-autoconf alternative for the DOS build 09:02:28 which worked even without sh 09:02:33 I'm thinking about dropping that possibility, though 09:02:56 ais523, well you could just #define it to be on except for dos 09:03:09 so static forced on with autoconf 09:03:19 and static forced off without autoconf 09:03:58 yes 09:04:06 that would deal with the PROG_SH thing 09:04:16 and also explain why C-INTERCAL was the only hit 09:04:17 interesting new tool in last valgrind release http://www.valgrind.org/docs/manual/pc-manual.html 09:04:23 it's the HAVE_SYS_INTERPRETER that's the tricky one 09:04:30 only issue it is detects a number of issues in ld.so 09:04:42 and one inside ncurses 09:04:51 apart from that cfunge passes it with flying colours 09:05:01 and I can hardly fix those inside system libraries 09:05:05 yes, looks interesting 09:05:28 and I can hardly fix those inside system libraries <--- if it happens in gcc-bf, let me know, you maybe could fix it there by telling me 09:05:36 not it wasn't 09:05:39 although I don't think valgrind's been ported to Brainfuck yet 09:05:43 indeed 09:06:09 ais523, oh and *sometimes* it reports an issue inside asin()... 09:06:25 but it says the tool is experimental 09:06:37 anyway nothing directly in cfunge 09:07:00 but some stuff in ncurses, ld.so, and (sometimes) libm.so 09:12:50 ais523, oh also memcheck has some new cool option to detect uninitialised values when they happen or something rather than way way later 09:12:55 in the last release 09:12:59 I haven't tested it yet 09:13:08 -!- moozilla has joined. 09:13:16 it says it will run way way slower 09:14:31 interesting, ptrcheck's one of the first programs I've seen that actually relies on various guarantees the C standard makes about pointers 09:14:56 one of the perennial arguments at comp.lang.c is about whether pointers in theory have to still work if you split them into pieces and reassemble them 09:14:58 ais523, it can break though, note the issue it mentions about " p = /* arbitrary condition */ ? &a[i] : &b[i];" 09:15:03 and now we have a C implementation it breaks 09:15:14 ais523, also it runs machine code 09:16:39 ais523, I think an actual error checking C *interpreter* or at least byte code interpreter could be very interesting 09:16:45 a lot more complex however 09:17:01 yes 09:17:11 you could probably do that by mixing a modified gcc with a modified valgrind 09:17:19 modified to share more information 09:17:42 well, there is also libmudflap, and you can actually run a mudflap program under valgrind, strange I know... 09:17:49 not strange at all 09:17:51 and slow as hell 09:17:57 no theoretical reason why it wouldn't work 09:18:14 ais523, well yes I think it is since for example boehm-gc + valgrind = sigsegv at startup 09:18:37 and mudflap certainly does dirty stack tricks too 09:18:49 ah, I didn't realise it did dirty stack tricks 09:19:02 ais523, well I'm pretty sure I read that it did 09:19:16 C-INTERCAL doesn't really do dirty stack tricks, at least the ones it does are sanctioned by the C standard 09:19:28 ais523, oh and funny thing, mudflap has an option to "wipe on free()" 09:19:33 that crashes with cfunge 09:19:44 since it tries to wipe a readonly mmap() 09:19:58 on munmap() 09:20:01 sounds like a bug in mudflap 09:20:16 probably they weren't expecting people to allocate read-only memory... 09:20:18 ais523, yes and I don't have last gcc, I run stable gentoo, otherwise I would report it 09:20:28 ais523, I don't, I mmap() a file as read only 09:20:33 it isn't anonymous memory 09:20:39 yes, I know 09:20:53 * ais523 tries to figure out if a hypothetical read-only malloc would have any use 09:21:10 I suppose you could try to determine if the system set unallocated memory to any particular value 09:21:13 well mmap() and malloc() are quite different 09:21:42 also checking unallocated memory is highly undef behaviour 09:21:47 err 09:21:48 yes, I know 09:21:53 allocated un-written 09:21:54 I meant 09:21:58 both 09:22:01 true 09:22:12 although I'm not entirely sure that the second is illegal via an unsigned char pointer 09:22:19 but I'm dubious that it's legal, too 09:22:28 it is legal I suspect 09:22:35 how would memcpy() work otherwise? 09:22:36 -!- metazilla has quit (Connection timed out). 09:22:36 you can get away with all sorts of things with unsigned char pointers that you can't with other things 09:22:39 if the struct has padding 09:22:46 AnMaster: by magic 09:22:49 to be more precise 09:23:01 I mean the interp that defines memcpy knows that it can get away with doing that 09:23:38 ais523, well, you can memcpy() a struct that is fully initialised but has padding. Even valgrind allows copying uninitialised memory without reporting error for that reason 09:23:44 there would be too many errors otherwise 09:24:00 AnMaster: yes, but imagine a hypothetical interpreter whose memcpy didn't copy padding 09:24:11 and each byte in memory had an extra is_padding bit 09:24:22 I don't think that violates the C standard, even though that's stupid 09:24:22 ais523, then that would break tricks that copied them using other ways 09:24:26 which I think are valid 09:24:38 what other tricks? 09:25:09 ais523, well if the struct is on the stack and not a pointer isn't it valid to copy with = iirc? 09:25:15 * AnMaster is pretty sure it is 09:25:49 that may be C99 or I may be wrong 09:25:56 or it may be C89 even 09:26:07 that's C89 09:26:10 right 09:26:14 and the compiler knows about padding when it implements = 09:26:16 then you have an example 09:26:26 in fact, I expect many compilers wouldn't copy the padding at all 09:26:36 err 09:26:38 unless it was faster to do a block-copy than several move instructions 09:26:39 that could be slower 09:26:45 yes exactly 09:26:49 it could be slower for a big struct, I agree 09:26:57 I bet it would be faster for struct {char c; int i;} though 09:27:13 at least on x86 09:27:19 ais523, depends, a single moveq should be faster on amd64 I expect 09:27:48 moveq is gas name for it though iirc 09:28:33 intel syntax use another name probably since amd64 ref docs talk about the "rex prefix byte" making operands of the next instruction 64-bit 09:30:03 ais523, oh btw, ptrcheck for cfunge (in a run where it didn't complain about errors inside asinl()): http://rafb.net/p/DF6sVr22.html 09:30:20 Mycology, by any chance? 09:30:32 ais523, yes, and my ncurses and ld.so both have debugging info 09:30:47 so I'm not sure why it doesn't report symbols in those 09:30:51 seems rather strange 09:30:56 it may be the wrong format of debugging info 09:31:01 ptrcheck seems to care about dwarf3 09:31:12 well. what is -ggdb then? 09:31:23 probably a dwarf3 variant 09:31:30 -ggdb 09:31:30 Produce debugging information for use by GDB. This means to use the most expressive format available (DWARF 2, stabs, or the native format if neither of 09:31:30 those are supported), including GDB extensions if at all possible. 09:31:31 hm 09:31:35 right dwarf2? 09:31:42 IIRC, it's "use whatever's best for gdb out of the formats I know, plus GNU extensions" 09:32:02 ais523, well cfunge was built with -ggdb too 09:32:08 and there are symbols for it in the trace 09:32:37 -gdwarf-2 09:32:38 Produce debugging information in DWARF version 2 format (if that is supported). This is the format used by DBX on IRIX 6. With this option, GCC uses fea‐ 09:32:38 tures of DWARF version 3 when they are useful; version 3 is upward compatible with version 2, but may still cause problems for older debuggers. 09:32:38 hm 09:34:34 ais523, well there is no option for pure dwarf3 in my man gcc, nor is cfunge built in any other way 09:34:41 so something weird is going on there 09:35:08 also I get the same odd errors from a simple valgrind --tool=exp-ptrcheck build/cfunge -h 09:36:53 hah 09:36:54 ==18184== Invalid read of size 8 09:36:54 ==18184== at 0x343000D3BF: (within /lib64/ld-2.6.1.so) 09:36:54 ==18184== by 0x3430432A18: exit (in /lib64/libc-2.6.1.so) 09:36:54 ==18184== by 0x401375: (within /bin/echo) 09:36:54 ==18184== by 0x343041DB73: (below main) (in /lib64/libc-2.6.1.so) 09:36:55 ==18184== Address 0x3430739b98 is not derived from any known block 09:37:26 ais523, well any binary I try on report those, I guess some missing suppression entries for whatever libc version I have 09:52:27 ais523, there? 09:52:31 yes 09:52:50 as long as eso-std.org is effectively down, I'm here whenever I'm logged in 09:53:04 I have profiled cfunge and the current largest speed problem is pushing strings 09:53:55 any idea how to optimise? I have been wondering if maybe making funge stack grow down would help, it would mean I could memcpy() the string... on the other hand it would also mean that growing the stack wouldn't be a simple realloc() any more 09:54:03 (and yes I realloc in chunks) 09:56:51 ais523, any good idea? 09:57:31 AnMaster: you could store a pointer to the string on the stack, rather than the string itself 09:57:41 and only expand it if someone cares about the individual chars in it 09:57:47 but that would be really complex 09:58:02 ideally, you'd have to recognise print loops, etc, for it to work well 09:58:17 yes it would and have the overhead of type tagging values 09:58:24 ais523, yes indeed 09:58:29 something for jitfunge rather 09:59:25 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:59:32 ais523, it would basically need a total redesign, and for "" strings it is hard to use, in fact it stack_push_string() isn't used there since that would break threads badly 10:00:01 ah, ofc 10:00:07 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:00:14 stack_(push|pop)_string are used instead for stuff like fingerprint instructions and i, o, y and such that need to push and/or pop strings 10:04:18 -!- Corun has joined. 10:08:05 hm 10:08:09 * AnMaster has an evil idea 10:08:27 basically like C++ templates but in C, by using macros 10:09:58 AnMaster: that's far more fun using gcc extensions 10:10:05 typeof and ({ }), in particular 10:11:04 ais523, well I was thinking generating the result types statically, like putting something like this in the header: GEN_FUNCS(char) 10:11:09 and so on for different types 10:11:19 that would still be portable 10:11:28 and with other macros you could hide this 10:12:13 ais523, anyway it is strange that C99 has tgmath.h but not typeof() 10:12:34 how did they think tgmath.h would be implemented without typeof() 10:12:58 sizeof works fine 10:13:12 ais523, not really, how would it work for complex types? 10:13:27 I thought tgmath was just float vs double vs long double 10:13:40 ais523, doesn't it support the complex variants too? 10:13:41 * AnMaster checks 10:14:17 4 For each unsuffixed function in for which there is a function in 10:14:18 with the same name except for a c prefix, the corresponding type- 10:14:18 generic macro (for both functions) has the same name as the function in . The 10:14:18 corresponding type-generic macro for fabs and cabs is fabs. 10:14:53 I'm having trouble parsing that paragraph... 10:14:58 and clearly, it isn't fabs 10:15:06 because that isn't a tgmath function 10:15:30 ais523, it isn't? GCC's tgmath support is incomplete 10:15:43 I meant, it would be called something else 10:15:45 fabs is 10:15:53 http://rafb.net/p/xK94QQ46.html 10:15:53 just the tgmath version is called something else IIRC 10:15:55 see that table 10:18:11 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/8QZbDk26.html 10:20:13 hah from my system tgmath.h: "/* This is ugly but unless gcc gets appropriate builtins we have to do something like this. Don't ask how it works. */" 10:20:19 # define __floating_type(type) (((type) 0.25) && ((type) 0.25 - 1)) 10:20:21 ew 10:20:49 I don't see why the part after the && is needed 10:20:57 or are there types which round upwards? 10:21:05 ais523, no idea 10:22:14 ais523, also: 10:22:16 # define __tgmath_real_type_sub(T, E) \ 10:22:16 __typeof__(*(0 ? (__typeof__ (0 ? (double *) 0 : (void *) (E))) 0 \ 10:22:16 : (__typeof__ (0 ? (T *) 0 : (void *) (!(E)))) 0)) 10:22:20 wtf is that 10:23:02 heh, that's really clever 10:23:12 it's exploiting the type of ?:'s return value rules 10:23:21 to do the tgmath calcuation in one macro 10:24:05 ais523, I don't know what those rules are 10:24:08 so what does it do 10:24:57 AnMaster: remember I haven't gone to bed yet, I'm not really in a fit state to work it out 10:25:07 and my quick explanation of how it works may be completely wrong 10:26:54 ais523, about those ick patches 10:26:57 any questions btw? 10:27:07 not really 10:27:13 I have a funky error message for the buffer overflow 10:27:19 ais523, also: http://rafb.net/p/bro27D69.html 10:27:24 ais523, what buffer overflow? 10:27:29 oh that one 10:27:32 now I remember 10:27:34 AnMaster: ick_snprintf_or_die 10:27:37 right 10:27:39 it's BETTER LATE THAN NEVER 10:27:42 given the circumstances that cause it 10:27:46 it was so long ago that I worked on it 10:27:51 ais523, heh right 10:28:54 wow...... http://rafb.net/p/2pUgX781.html 10:29:00 hmm... ick build is giving more warnings now 10:29:07 but I think that's because you tweaked the warning level up 10:29:11 rather than due to buggier code 10:29:19 ais523, I didn't in configure.ac afaik 10:29:23 I only did for cfunge 10:29:27 that is iffi 10:29:39 iirc 10:29:43 warning: ignoring return value of ‘system’, declared with attribute warn_unused_result 10:29:55 I wonder what's causing that 10:30:17 __attribute__((warn_unused_result)) 10:30:28 I think it is included in -Wall 10:30:48 I'm wondering why it's happening now, and wasn't before 10:30:54 hmm... maybe due to an OS upgrade 10:30:57 I might have better header files now 10:31:02 right 10:31:08 anyway, why check the return value from system? It's unportable 10:31:26 ais523, hm? system() is ISO C 10:31:36 AnMaster: its return value is unportable 10:31:45 it's not defined to mean anything in particular, IIRC 10:31:54 (its argument is unportable too, but has more of a consistent meaning) 10:31:56 extern int system (__const char *__command) __wur; 10:32:04 it seems __wur means warn_unused_result 10:32:51 system(NULL) has a defined return value, though. But system() with a non-null argument has a completely implementation-defined value. 10:33:05 fizzie, what is the result of system(NULL)? 10:33:06 also 10:33:14 I suspect it is defined by POSIX 10:33:34 which may be the reason that linux headers think you should check the result 10:33:34 system(NULL) returns nonzero "if a command processor is available". Of course that's a bit vague, too. 10:35:35 POSIX does define it, yes. 10:35:41 it vaguely means that system(NULL) returns nonzero if you can ever get system to do anything 10:35:43 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 10:35:47 and zero if it's a no-op 10:36:43 Actually I don't see a clear definition what system("foo"); should do if system(NULL) returns zero. 10:36:58 no, but in practice no-op seems likely 10:37:13 anyway, how much more implementation-defined can you get than "causes the implementation to act in an implementation-defined manner"? 10:37:58 /home/anmaster/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/DATE/DATE.c:123: warning: cast from function call of type 'long double' to non-matching type 'long long int' 10:37:59 wtf 10:38:02 return (fungeCell)roundl(jdn); 10:38:04 C99 verbiage is: "-- passes the string -- to that command processor to be executed in a manner which the implementation shall document; this might then cause the program calling system to behave in a non-conforming manner or to terminate." 10:38:06 what is wrong with that? 10:38:14 it makes no sense to me 10:38:20 AnMaster: what is jdn? 10:38:22 why would I cast the function call, I'm casting the result 10:38:30 ais523, long double jdn 10:38:44 -!- Corun has joined. 10:38:44 anyway the issue is that I'm trying to cast the result of roundl() 10:38:47 and what's the type of roundl? 10:38:52 ais523, man roundl 10:38:58 it is a C99 standard function 10:39:13 long double roundl(long double x); 10:39:20 hmm... your compiler doesn't like casting from long double to long long int 10:39:28 because the long long int might not fit in a long double, presumably 10:39:28 ais523, GCC 10:39:30 anyway 10:39:34 that isn't the issue 10:39:36 if I do: 10:39:43 they only have a bit over 50 bits of precision, IIRC 10:39:44 not 64 10:39:48 long double tmp = roundl(jdn); 10:39:53 return (fungeCell)tmp; 10:39:56 it doesn't complain 10:40:03 only if I directly cast the result of roundl() 10:40:07 that is pretty strange 10:40:32 ais523, ^ 10:40:40 yes 10:40:45 the warning seems to be something specific 10:40:48 I wonder why it's there 10:40:53 I mean, the error message is pretty specific 10:41:25 ais523, it seems to happen whenever I put (integer-type-goes-here)function_that_returns_a_floating_point_type(); 10:41:45 I wonder why that's a warning 10:41:52 I have no idea 10:41:53 I'd expect splint to warn about that sort of thing 10:41:56 but then, it warns about everything 10:42:18 it even has options for enforcing naming conventions on variables, IIRC 10:43:53 ais523, hm -Wbad-function-cast cause it 10:44:01 -Wbad-function-cast (C and Objective-C only) 10:44:01 Warn whenever a function call is cast to a non-matching type. For example, warn if "int malloc()" is cast to "anything *". 10:44:11 now that doesn't make much sense 10:44:15 yes it does 10:44:18 I see what's going on here 10:44:28 casting malloc hides errors due to forgetting to include stdlib.h 10:44:34 in which case it's int malloc implicitly 10:44:50 that's gcc's attempt to nevertheless produce a warning when that happens 10:45:06 anyway, I don't see why you have the cast there at all 10:45:13 ais523, sure, in that case it would be int-to-anything 10:45:14 long double casts implicitly to long long int... 10:45:38 and as comp.lang.c will tell you, implicit casts are better than explicit casts 10:45:43 ais523, also gcc already warns about missing prototypes 10:45:54 (the only reason NULL is cast to const char* for lose.h is the ridiculousness, AFAICT...) 10:46:19 ais523, I was trying to shut up ICC's warning about "may change the value" 10:46:32 also a 32-bit build would be long double -> int cast 10:46:50 it doesn't matter 10:46:57 the function is declared to return a fungeCell, isn't it? 10:47:00 so they cast is just redundant 10:47:02 *the 10:47:07 /home/anmaster/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/DATE/DATE.c(123): warning #810: conversion from "long double" to "fungeCell={int32_t={int}}" may lose significant bits 10:47:07 return roundl(jdn); 10:47:07 ^ 10:47:10 sigh 10:47:28 I dislike the may lose significant bits warnings 10:47:31 ofc, they're correct 10:47:34 but they're also what I mean 10:47:44 ais523, yes and even useful sometimes, it helped me catch a few bugs 10:47:47 I remember just turning that one off, back when I used to use bcc 10:47:51 With an existing prototype the warning is a bit unexpected, since the compiler knows the "physical" type of the return value of roundl and should be able to work "correctly". 10:48:07 fizzie, indeed 10:48:26 Java is very fond of "may lose bits" warnings, which are actually errors there. 10:48:35 I probably wouldn't have even used roundl 10:48:45 ais523, also gcc-4.3.2 warns about "may lose ..." with -Wconversion 10:48:45 more likely I'd have added 0.5, then implicitly casted the return value 10:48:49 although I'm not sure that works for negatives 10:48:51 earlier versions didn't 10:48:56 And not related, but: there's llroundl which does directly "long double" -> "long long int"; of course that's not very useful for you if you want it to work no matter what the fungeCell type is. 10:49:08 fizzie: is that C99? 10:49:11 Yes. 10:49:23 fizzie, really? *looks* 10:49:30 there's lots of ifdefs for 32/64-bit in cfunge anyway 10:49:46 ais523, yes but I use int64_t/int32_t 10:49:55 and almost all those ifdef are in one header 10:50:06 well, there's nothing wrong with casting to long long 10:50:17 and then relying on low-bit preservation 10:50:20 but that probably gives warnings 10:51:00 The round/lround/llround always round to the nearest integer, with halfway cases away from zero, no matter what the rounding mode is. That's not exactly what +0.5 and truncation does. 10:51:06 well, one issue is that some *bsd lack the *l math.h functions 10:51:19 freebsd have roundl but lacks sinl for example 10:51:46 (which is the reason I check and fall back on the double version) 10:51:48 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:51:56 -!- puzzlet has joined. 10:52:07 fizzie, indeed 10:52:28 iirc round() isn't in C89 either 10:57:25 hm 10:57:28 Why its converting from long double anyway? 10:57:44 is casting a double NaN to integer undefined? 10:58:22 Ilari, the program? because it did floating point computations and want an integer result, it is converting from year/month/day to whole number julian day number 10:58:23 Ilari: round returns floating-point... 10:58:33 which need floating point computation in between 10:58:44 wait, why does year/month/day to Julian involve floating point? 10:58:54 and it needs the round() rounding behaviour when it comes to negative julian days 10:59:08 Round returns floating point, but it also takes floating point as argument (otherwise it wouldn't make any sense). 10:59:09 ais523, because it returns the wrong result otherwise? 10:59:18 Ilari, yes indeed 11:00:23 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:00:36 Err, year/month/day to Julian day number involves floating point computations? 11:00:52 Ilari, yep 11:01:04 integer division made it break 11:01:12 long double jdn = date->day + floorl((153 * m + 2)/5.0) + 365 * y 11:01:12 + floorl(y/4.0) - floorl(y/100.0) + floorl(y/400) - 32045; 11:01:36 if you use integer division there instead it breaks, no I didn't bother figuring out why 11:02:08 possibly some of those don't need it 11:02:51 -!- metazilla has joined. 11:02:57 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 11:03:43 int64_t a = floorl((14 - date->month) / 12.0); 11:03:43 long double y = Y + 4800 - a; 11:03:55 looking at that it should be possible to change y to int64_t 11:03:56 except 11:03:59 mycology says BAD then 11:04:03 BAD: J should push -1119007 given [-7777,2,29] 11:04:18 Ah, negative values of y. 11:04:27 Ilari, yes they need to be correct of course... 11:05:18 ais523, I hope that explains it for you too? 11:05:26 yes 11:06:01 in fact I'd go as far as calling the current calculations I use for this "extremely brittle" and thus I don't want to change anything in them if possible 11:06:55 julian_to_ymd() is even worse, it needs casting to integer almost all the time 11:08:46 -!- Corun has joined. 11:09:10 Ilari, ais523 if you are interested, here is the relevant code for converting back and forth, most code I found on the web only handled positive julian day numbers so here is some code that handles negative ones too: http://rafb.net/p/33SjNl24.html 11:09:29 as far as I know it is correct, at least for the values that mycology tests 11:11:46 yes I wrote the code and no I don't fully understand it :P 11:14:56 * AnMaster waits for any comments on it 11:15:50 Probably easiest way to get rid of those FP ops would be to have dedicated function that performs that division and floor using only integer math... 11:16:14 Ilari, why would I want that? integer division isn't much faster than floating point division 11:17:05 in fact I suspect that floating point math ends up as significantly faster in this case, at least on most non-embedded architectures 11:17:28 probably slower if you don't have an FPU 11:17:36 * ais523 shoots an angry glance at gcc-bf 11:20:51 well, I designed cfunge for common desktop computers, which means x86/amd64. Though it should work just as fine on other architectures, such as PPC and so on (but I don't have the possibility to test on such). And it should *work* on other arches as well 11:21:04 like gcc-bf, if it can support the POSIX facilities needed 11:21:22 hopefully it'll be able to eventually 11:21:33 ais523, I suspect it wouldn't work with the build system though 11:22:02 cross compiling to gcc-bf using cmake, probably nopt 11:22:04 not* 11:22:33 in fact I never tried cross compiling cfunge 11:22:37 nor do I have a cross toolchain 11:22:50 I have two cross toolchains 11:23:03 gcc-bf, which doesn't produce working executables yet but is good enough to test with 11:23:13 and an ARM cross-toolchain I used for a project a couple of years back 11:23:17 also I think when it checks for header files it may check system headers. It certainly ignore feature rest macros when looking for functions I know 11:23:21 which is the one I normally use to test cross-compile setups 11:23:36 hm 11:23:47 qemu can emulate non-native arches 11:24:05 sparc, ppc and arm for example it seem 11:24:07 seems* 11:24:26 and binary emulation, just running a binary and not a full os. heh? 11:24:54 qemu is an emulator 11:25:16 although it goes into virtualisation mode when host processor = target processor 11:25:27 at least on x86 11:25:34 binary emulation is kind-of clever 11:25:51 ais523, yes... but: 11:25:58 * User mode emulation. In this mode, QEMU can launch processes compiled for one CPU on another CPU. It can be used to launch the Wine Windows API emulator (http://www.winehq.org) or to ease cross-compilation and cross-debugging. 11:26:16 ais523, that seems quite useful 11:26:31 I've never got it to work, although I haven't really tried 11:26:41 just one quick try failed and I never bothered to look up the correct syntax 11:26:47 ais523, I know a friend who got it to work using static binaries 11:26:59 didn't work for dynamic without lots of weird tricks he said 11:27:55 hm anyone knows an emulator for lisp machines? 11:28:00 -!- oklofok has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:28:00 -!- sebbu has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:28:00 -!- comex has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:28:01 -!- lament has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:28:01 that would be kind of cool 11:28:08 AnMaster: what about a Lisp interp? 11:28:13 or does that not count? 11:28:40 ais523, well I assume a real lisp machine would have some extra commands like possibly something for shutting down and so on 11:28:50 ? 11:29:24 also what lisp dialect did the lisp machines use? 11:29:35 -!- oklofok has joined. 11:29:35 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:29:35 -!- comex has joined. 11:29:35 -!- lament has joined. 11:51:48 ais523, there still? 11:51:58 what do you call the L after #define FOO 19237L 11:51:59 yes, more or less, but not really paying attention 11:52:00 or whatever 11:52:11 hmm... I mentally pronounce it as the letter L 11:52:14 I'm not sure it has a name 11:52:24 probably it's something like type specifier 11:52:31 I'm trying to find it in C99 spec... 11:52:33 hm 11:53:11 6.7.2 Type specifiers 11:53:11 Syntax 11:53:11 1 type-specifier: 11:53:11 void 11:53:11 char 11:53:12 ... 11:53:14 nop 11:53:16 nope* 11:53:18 that is something else 11:53:31 Type suffix, or something. 11:53:35 Some sort of suffix it was. 11:53:46 Or maybe not. 11:54:22 "integer-suffix" is the name in the syntax part. 11:54:50 "An integer constant -- may have a prefix that specifies its base and a suffix that specifies its type." 11:54:59 ah found it too 11:55:21 6.4.4.1 11:59:06 Given those quotations, "type suffix" isn't the worst possible name, anyway. (Unless you want to explicitly refer to the integer constant suffix in 6.4.4.1 and not to the corresponding F/L suffixes for floating-point constants in 6.4.4.2.) 11:59:42 fizzie, I was actually looking for what the floating point ones were 11:59:52 so I probably wanted the generic name 11:59:57 oh btw in the char section: 12:00:01 "The value of an integer character constant containing more than one character (e.g., 'ab'), or containing a character or escape sequence that does not map to a single-byte execution character, is implementation-defined." 12:00:04 that seems very strange 12:00:39 AnMaster: for entering Unicode execution characters on an ASCII source character set 12:00:46 although they invented \u since, so it's probably moot now 12:01:08 still, say your program is written in EBCDIC and the execution set is ASCII, what should ¬ map to? 12:01:11 ais523, then one would use wchar_t not char 12:01:26 "implementation-defined" is at least a nice handwavy way to avoid the problem 12:01:51 ais523, well it means you can't depend on any specific behaviour 12:02:20 character-constant: 12:02:21 ' c-char-sequence ' 12:02:21 L' c-char-sequence ' 12:02:22 hm 12:02:24 what does the L mean? 12:02:33 I can't find that 12:02:38 yes, but if your source and execution character sets aren't the same, your implementation details probably matter 12:02:41 ah wait 12:02:43 found it 12:02:44 and L'' is for wchar_t constants, IIRC 12:02:48 right 12:03:25 There's a corresponding L"foo" for strings of wchar_t. 12:03:36 hm is there any library for floating point > long double? 12:03:44 such as 256 bit floating point or whatever 12:04:56 You could use some arbitrary-precision one, I think at least some of those have well-twiddleable settings. Maybe not as fast as a fixed K-bit floating-point lib. 12:05:25 fizzie, arbitrary-precision wouldn't be floating point would it? 12:05:42 rather based on fractions or something 12:06:06 GMP at least has functions for arbitrary-precision integers, rationals or floating-point (mpf*) values. 12:06:11 heh 12:06:22 does it have a constant for pi ;P 12:07:05 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:07:10 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:07:27 The mpf-floats have a fixed-size exponent ("2^-68719476768 to 2^68719476736" on a 32-bit system, something larger for 64-bit; it doesn't seem to be exactly the exponent) and arbitrary-precision mantissa. 12:07:47 mh 12:07:48 hm* 12:08:53 You can select the mantissa precision when initializing a variable; the mpf_* functions will truncate to the precision of the destination variable. 12:09:31 Although the precision is "at least x bits" and not "exactly x bits", but I don't think that usually matters much. 12:09:40 ais523, you should use the comma operator more in ick 12:09:47 would make the code more confusing 12:10:10 AnMaster: there's some of that in clc_cset.c, IIRC 12:10:17 ais523, hm ok 12:10:21 but that's one of the more confusing files of the lot, it even confuses me 12:10:22 and I wrote it 12:11:34 The GMP floats do lack infinities and NaNs, though. 12:12:05 ais523, hm clc-cset.c does have confusing indentation... 12:12:18 while(jsetlen*cs->shifts) 12:12:18 if((cs->set[j++]=(unsigned char)(c=ipf(in))),c==EOF && in != NULL) 12:12:18 {if(in) (void)fclose(in); return;} 12:12:19 like that 12:12:38 that indentation is not only confusing, it's correct 12:12:51 the while only has one statement as argument, so it's indented 2 to the right 12:13:02 hm? 12:13:03 and opening brace is on the same column as the if it applies to 12:13:13 ais523, there should be some newlines there 12:13:22 (clc-cset.c is possibly the only good argument I've seen for GNU-style indentation, by the way) 12:13:33 and yes, of course there shuold be, but that's missing the point 12:13:42 true 12:13:48 while(jsetlen*cs->shifts) 12:13:48 if((cs->set[j++]=(unsigned char)(c=ipf(in))),c==EOF && in != NULL) { 12:13:48 if(in) 12:13:48 (void)fclose(in); 12:13:48 return; 12:13:48 } 12:13:51 is much more readable 12:13:59 that looks ridiculous, though 12:14:04 ais523, it does? 12:14:06 admittedly, the original also looks ridiculous 12:14:12 anyway 12:14:17 it uses the comma operator 12:14:25 I'm not sure what the line if((cs->set[j++]=(unsigned char)(c=ipf(in))),c==EOF && in != NULL) does 12:14:30 neither am I 12:14:50 ais523, is that (c==EOF) && in or c==(EOF && in)? 12:15:02 what is the precedence order there 12:15:06 ((c==EOF) && (in != NULL)) 12:15:13 C precedence is not something I have problems with 12:15:15 ah right 12:15:31 although I find it's funnier and more confusing to overparenthesise than underparenthesise when I'm writing obfuscated C 12:15:38 ais523, well I use so many different languages that I end up not remembering precedence of any 12:16:01 C precedence is a subset of Perl precedence 12:16:06 which reduces the number by 1 12:16:10 well I don't know perl 12:16:25 && having higher precedence than == would be really freaky; I for one would not expect "a == 0 && b == 1", which is not uncommon, to be parsed like "a == (0 && b) == 1". 12:16:56 I can't remember offhand which way == associates, which would also be relevant there 12:17:08 the associativity of == is something I don't think has ever come up for me, even in obfuscated code 12:17:18 (I know which way = associates, that's much more common) 12:17:37 arguably, a == b == c should actually associate as (a == b) && (b == c), but that's a stretch 12:17:40 and I know it doesn't 12:18:05 oh and erlang got some really odd precedence issues, and/or have very high precedence (higher than ==), but the short-circuit variants andalso/orelse have low precedence (lowest of them all) 12:18:33 AnMaster: that is strange 12:18:40 Perl has two and/or operators 12:18:41 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/Chsqmt44.html 12:18:47 && has the same precedence as in C 12:18:53 whereas and is very very low precedence 12:18:57 lower even than , 12:19:05 and = 12:19:19 it's used as a substitute if statement, normally 12:19:26 There was something really silly in C operator precedences, though. Was it so that & has a lower precedence than == -- so that you need "(a & 1) == 1" for masking, since "a & 1 == 1" would be "a & (1 == 1)" -- because back in the dawn of C the && operator didn't exist yet. 12:19:47 fizzie: yep, that's it 12:19:52 haha 12:20:06 and & is still usable for logical and if you have a comparison on both sides 12:20:15 you just have to remember it doesn't short-circuit so probably is less efficient 12:20:42 (incidentally, gcc compiles (a == b) & (c == d) to appropriate arithmetic code involving the status word, if that's expressible on the target platform) 12:21:01 if((padstyle==1&&(i==1||i==9) && !(outword&(1<<(co->nbytes*8-i)))) || (padstyle==2&&(rand()>RAND_MAX/2||!outword))) 12:21:04 err 12:21:05 wtf? 12:21:10 paste issue 12:21:12 lets try again 12:21:21 if((padstyle==1&&(i==1||i==9) && !(outword&(1<<(co->nbytes*8-i)))) || 12:21:21 (padstyle==2&&(rand()>RAND_MAX/2||!outword))) 12:21:22 there 12:21:27 weird indentation 12:21:41 or possibly broken mixing of tab and space 12:21:46 You probably should look at it with an 8-space tab. 12:21:59 fizzie, well that is broken IMO. 12:22:09 Broken, but not weird. 12:22:41 else outword |= (unsigned short)((val>>(co->bitorder[i]-'a'))&1) 12:22:41 << (co->nbytes*8-i-1); 12:22:43 hm 12:22:51 well apart from indentation 12:22:59 not using a newline after else is strange too 12:23:10 at least when the statement is multi-line 12:23:24 All that reminds me of Nethack sources. Especially since it involves rand. 12:23:40 fizzie, yes indeed 12:23:44 no idea why it does 12:23:54 static void ick_bitencout(char** pop, const struct cset* co, 12:23:54 unsigned short val, int padstyle) 12:23:57 is the function it is from 12:24:06 no idea why that needs rand() 12:24:22 ais523, can you explain that? 12:24:28 Only for padstyle==2, though. 12:24:36 fizzie, well yes 12:24:39 whatever that one is 12:24:49 magic numbers... 12:25:11 AnMaster: it's for random padding of the high bits of characters 12:25:21 ais523, err what? 12:25:22 if, say, you have a 7-bit character set like ASCII 12:25:28 and you're trying to store it on an 8-bit system 12:25:31 you have one free bit 12:25:37 C-INTERCAL lets you choose what to do with that bit 12:25:38 then all first would be 0 wouldn't they? 12:25:50 AnMaster: you have three choices: pad with 0, pad to printable, pad with random 12:25:59 pad to printable is particularly useful on 5-bit character sets 12:26:00 ais523, it would make sense to have "no padding" 12:26:17 as in "store the bits packed" 12:26:18 AnMaster: nobody stores ASCII packed 8 chars to 7 bytes 12:26:27 ais523, well NOT YET 12:26:32 you could do it 12:26:36 because no one else did 12:26:36 although that as another option would be interesting 12:26:56 and something like that will probably be needed if/when I add support for UTF-9 12:26:58 compression 12:27:20 ais523, wouldn't you store it padded in 16 bits? 12:27:21 There's no "pad to even/odd parity" option? :p 12:27:31 anyway, the randomly padded thing is needed 12:27:31 fizzie, hah that would be nice too 12:27:35 for certain things 12:27:40 fizzie: no, but only because I didn't think of it 12:27:44 really? what needs random padding? 12:27:44 of course that one's necessary 12:27:53 AnMaster: it's in the CLC-INTERCAL spec for something, IIC 12:27:55 *IIRC 12:28:02 although I think that was binary data 12:28:10 ais523, how would it be able to detect *random* padding 12:28:12 which is padded from 8 bits to 16 bits for no apparent reason 12:28:16 there is no way you can verify it 12:28:28 AnMaster: it doesn't at the moment, but threatens the possibility of randomness checks in the future 12:28:39 ais523, that is impossible 12:28:40 besides, the other way round, compiler-generated randomness, can be checked mycorand-style 12:28:44 AnMaster: usually impossible 12:28:58 to quote Dillbert: 99999.... 12:29:02 but programs failing to work at random, or scamming the randomness checks, would both be very in-the-spirit-of-INTERCAL 12:29:52 ais523, yes sure but you could potentially have to run mycorand for a lot of iterations 12:30:04 more than can be found in the file 12:30:31 AnMaster: checking the compiler you can generate as many test-cases as you like 12:31:17 true, but isn't the random padding for files, where the receiver won't have the original generating program? 12:31:35 the random padding's for I/O 12:31:58 and anyway, the spec for binary CLC-INTERCAL I/O (which I haven't yet implemented) requires data to be padded from 8 bits to 16 bits at random 12:32:01 for no apparent reason 12:32:02 ais523, oh? this file isn't used by convickt? 12:32:18 I decided to add a random-padding option to the Baudot conversion too 12:32:22 and then ASCII because I might as well 12:32:28 on the basis that it makes it harder to read 12:32:45 and if you're using Baudot in the first place, probably unreadability is your goal 12:33:14 ais523, or backward compatibility 12:33:26 very backward compatibility 12:33:30 yes 12:33:32 given that Baudot was invented before computers were 12:33:43 it's a 19th century character set 12:34:23 ais523, using letters at all is very backward compatible, considering the Romans (mostly) invented the current charset we use today 12:34:38 they didn't encode them as numbers, though 12:34:41 well, not directly 12:34:49 they had Polybius' Checkerboard 12:34:51 well indeed, they did the other way around 12:34:53 although that was a Greek invention 12:35:02 ais523, what is this polybius thing? 12:35:18 AnMaster: basically, write the alphabet in a rectangular matrix, give letters by giving the row and column 12:35:31 it was apparently used to send messages long-distance 12:35:32 ok, and what did they use it for? 12:35:39 by raising a set number of torches 12:35:43 or something similar 12:35:44 heh 12:35:51 early telegraph? 12:35:54 more or less 12:35:59 but for military purposes 12:36:05 and with much shorter messages 12:36:07 you should support it in convickt! 12:36:15 convickt's extensible 12:36:22 although the file format confuses me 12:36:29 and again, I created it 12:36:32 err 12:36:34 wtf is this: 12:36:36 ick_cset_recent[ic].nbytes || (ick_clc_cset_load(ick_cset_recent+ic,incset),0); 12:36:36 ick_cset_recent[oc].nbytes || (ick_clc_cset_load(ick_cset_recent+oc,outcset),0); 12:36:51 it's pretty simple 12:36:58 it's a standard Perl idiom translated to C 12:37:02 only it makes sense in Perl 12:37:11 think short-circuit evaluation 12:37:21 well what does variable || (functioncall(),0) 12:37:22 do? 12:37:25 and the ,0 is to avoid having a void expression on the right hand side of ||, which is legal in Perl but wrong in C 12:37:29 which is what it seems to be 12:37:36 it's equivalent to if(!variable) functioncall() 12:37:43 oh my 12:37:54 in Perl, that's idiomatically written "variable or functioncall();" 12:38:03 because Perl doesn't have single-statement ifs 12:38:11 yes right foo || bar in shell 12:38:12 but short-circuiting is standard 12:38:35 (void)(oc==-1 && (ick_cset_recent[oc=ick_csetow++].nbytes=0)); <-- that is another nasty variant of it 12:38:54 why don't you use that paradigm for this then: 12:38:56 if(ic==-1) for(i=NCSETRECENT;i--;) if(!ick_cset_recent[i].nbytes) ic=i; 12:39:08 the last two statements could be re-done that way 12:39:10 I think 12:39:36 if(!ick_cset_recent[i].nbytes) ic=i; would be ick_cset_recent[i].nbytes || ic=i; 12:39:38 I think? 12:40:04 yes, it would be 12:40:10 except you need parens due to precedence 12:40:17 well ok 12:40:24 and a cast to void because otherwise gcc doesn't believe you really meant that 12:40:58 I can understand gcc's opinion there! 12:43:16 char setname[9]; /* 8.3 filenames are enforced! */ 12:43:18 ais523, wtf? 12:43:27 AnMaster: the extension is fixed 12:43:32 so that's 8 bytes plus the terminating NUL 12:43:35 err 12:43:37 and those are internal-use filenames 12:43:41 why only 8? 12:43:53 why can't you allow full length *nix style 12:43:56 AnMaster: because the 8.3 filename is a running joke amongst DOS/Windows users 12:44:07 hm? 12:44:19 I'm pretty sure it is no longer needed on windows 12:44:22 it isn't 12:44:38 but clc-cset is all about insane compatibility dating back centuries 12:44:44 even assuming the existence of files is a stretch 12:44:50 or directories 12:44:54 DOS 1 didn't have directories, for instance 12:45:36 hah 12:47:17 _PC_NAME_MAX 12:47:17 returns the maximum length of a filename in the directory path or fd that the process is allowed to create. The corresponding macro is _POSIX_NAME_MAX. 12:47:27 on my /home (ext3) this seems to be 255 12:47:40 strange 12:47:46 thought it would be much longer 12:50:17 Path names are indeed surprisingly short. 12:54:13 hm interesting issue 12:54:20 considering the comma operator 12:54:24 shouldn't this be valid: 12:54:29 int x, int y; 12:54:31 :D 12:54:39 int x isn't an expression 12:54:43 ok 12:54:49 int x=3, int y=4; 12:54:50 (my x), (my y); is indeed valid Perl, I think 12:54:59 although arguably it shouldn't be 12:55:16 You're missing them $s. 12:55:20 oh, yes 12:55:33 well, x and y were functions returning symbolic references, just so that they could correct my mistake 12:55:36 well 12:55:43 there's some debate about 0 and (my $x); 12:55:45 I meant C 12:55:46 ... 12:56:01 I think that it was officially ruled that people shouldn't depend on any particular value of $x if they do that 12:56:04 1 expression: 12:56:04 assignment-expression 12:56:04 expression , assignment-expression 12:56:07 hm 12:56:09 so 12:56:14 And "int x=3, int y=4;" is not syntactic either; those aren't assignment-expressions there. 12:56:33 hm.... 12:57:01 put it this way: int x=2, y=3 is not equivalent to int x=(2,(y=3)) 12:57:17 ais523, indeed 12:57:23 the former is pretty normal syntax 12:57:32 and the second is insane 12:57:35 yes 12:57:46 what exactly is the result of the second? 12:57:56 x == 3? and y == 3? 12:58:00 it assigns 3 to a new auto variable called x 12:58:04 and 3 to an existing variable called y 12:58:11 which is presumably in an outer scope 12:58:14 "If an attempt is made to modify the result of a comma operator or to access it after the next sequence point, the behavior is undefined." 12:58:24 I'm not sure it does due to that 12:58:30 it doesn't violate that rule 12:58:35 hm ok 12:58:42 that what does that rule mean? 12:58:43 that's disallowing things like (2, y) = 3 12:58:49 ah right 12:58:51 "int x=3;" is an instance of the 'declaration' syntax; It's something like (declaration (declaration-specifiers (type-specifier "int")) (init-declarator-list (init-declarator (declarator "x") "=" (initializer "3"))))))))))))))))))))))))))) in tree form. 12:58:52 which make no sense in any language, really, except Perl 12:58:57 (Didn't bother counting the )s.) 12:59:13 in Perl, that's equivalent to y=3 12:59:21 Perl is quite good at assigning meanings to otherwise meaningless expressions 12:59:33 hah 12:59:35 hmm... maybe it isn't, actually 12:59:41 you might have to write scalar (2, y) = 3 12:59:45 to get the right sort of comma operator 12:59:58 ais523, I much prefer a language with a consistent and sane syntax, and C isn't one of them. Perl certainly isn't 13:00:36 scheme definitely is if you disregard those non-clean macros 13:01:12 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:01:14 It's easy to have a consistent and sane syntax if you have so little of it, like Scheme has. 13:01:26 on the other hand, scheme doesn't have a portable rand() afaik 13:01:43 I don't know clisp 13:01:58 it may be better 13:02:37 fizzie, and yes not having much syntax helps a lot 13:05:27 Still, my written-in-Prolog Scheme syntax parser is a whopping 335 lines. 13:05:52 that's just because good-style Prolog is inherently very vertical 13:06:08 It's not very good-style. :p 13:06:13 Most of it is about numbers, anyway. 13:06:14 although using \+ and ; and -> a lot makes it less readable but shorter 13:07:38 There's the exact/inexact prefixes, radix prefixes, and complex numbers to care about. 13:08:24 numbers always seem hacked into Prolog 13:08:29 it would be much more elegant without them 13:08:34 you could use list lengths instead, or something 13:08:41 and get round all the random restrictions on numbers that exist 13:09:12 I think I converted the Scheme constants into SWI-Prolog numbers, and used the inelegant operations. 13:09:48 Or, hmm. Actually not. 13:10:06 I seem to have implemented some sort of auto-normalized rationals there. 13:11:25 But no bignums. :/ 13:11:33 Well, it was just a course programming exercise. 13:18:23 fizzie, I would like to see it 13:18:41 also any good online prolog tutorial? 13:19:01 and what open source prolog implementation would you recommend? 13:19:13 I'd recommend gprolog, mostly because I'm used to it 13:19:19 and it even attempts to implement some sort of standard library 13:19:26 Description: GNU Prolog is a native Prolog compiler with constraint solving over finite domains (FD) 13:19:27 hm? 13:19:28 above what ISO guarantees, which isn't a lot 13:19:32 what about debugging prolog? 13:19:34 AnMaster: you can ignore the FD stuff 13:19:38 and it has a good debugger 13:19:43 right 13:19:43 it's both a compiler and an interpreter 13:19:47 both together, in fact 13:20:00 if you run a null program through the compiler, you get the interpreter 13:20:04 hah 13:20:18 ok, so what about tutorial? 13:21:03 I learnt Prolog from RL books 13:21:09 which in retrospect weren't all that useful 13:21:20 use amd64 && append-flags -fno-tree-dce 13:21:21 wtf 13:21:31 it fails with dead code elimination on amd64? 13:21:37 that was from the ebuild 13:22:07 Well, I've used SWI-prolog exclusively. 13:22:26 It's not bad, but I'm unqualified to judge very well. 13:22:58 And I learnt prolog from (a) "The Art of Prolog" book and (b) the SWI-prolog manual (the details; it's very much not a tutorial). 13:23:10 hm 13:23:47 I'm not sure how portable this plscheme thing is. It uses SWI-Prolog's module system thing, at least. 13:24:14 h 13:24:15 hm* 13:24:25 fizzie: I agree with reading the manual for details once you've learnt the basics, but not before 13:24:41 so what about learning the basics? 13:24:46 online resource that is 13:26:14 http://www.csupomona.edu/~jrfisher/www/prolog_tutorial/contents.html was the "Missing course book? Try an online tutorial to Prolog." link. 13:26:24 I don't think I've looked it at all, so caveat IRC-or. 13:32:36 hm 13:32:37 thanks 13:51:16 -!- Corun has joined. 14:07:31 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:08:07 -!- moozilla has joined. 14:11:52 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:11:56 -!- moozilla has joined. 14:12:49 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:12:56 -!- moozilla has joined. 14:18:32 -!- metazilla has joined. 14:18:38 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:18:42 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 14:21:42 -!- metazilla has joined. 14:21:42 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:21:50 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 14:31:13 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:31:16 -!- moozilla has joined. 14:33:57 -!- metazilla has joined. 14:33:57 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:34:03 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 14:34:06 -!- jix has joined. 14:40:34 ais523, did you check all the patches or? 14:40:49 more or less 14:41:01 ok 14:41:11 haven't checked the build in detail 14:41:13 -!- Mony has joined. 14:41:17 I've checked source, but I want to check the executable too 14:41:25 well of course 14:42:45 yello 14:43:53 yello? 14:43:55 jello? 14:44:05 or maybe jelly= 14:44:06 ? 14:46:01 -!- metazilla has joined. 14:46:06 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:46:10 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 14:47:44 it's like hello ^^ 14:47:58 hm. 14:48:04 does valgrind work on os x yet 14:48:41 -!- metazilla has joined. 14:48:45 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:48:50 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 14:49:57 ehird, some tools do iirc 14:50:01 but not all 14:50:16 same for ppc 14:50:42 ah no it doesn't 14:51:07 ehird, iirc xcode is bundled with some tool to check for "object leaks" or such 14:51:12 better than nothing 14:51:17 * ehird wonders if #define S(x) ((string_t){strlen(x),x}) is sane. 14:51:27 Well, it'd probably not go in a constant section. 14:51:31 ehird, what is the type of string_t? 14:51:33 That's kind of bad. 14:51:34 AnMaster: struct. 14:51:45 also indeed it wouldn't I bet 14:52:04 Mmph. 14:52:13 ? 14:52:30 ehird, it is a nice idea though 14:52:51 There's a gcc-specific hack to put things in the constant section I think, but, uh, it's a gcc-specific hack. 14:53:18 well yes being gcc specific is part of the definition of being a gcc specific hack 14:53:36 so that makes sense, it would ineed be specific to gcc 14:54:17 ehird, is OS X on intel 32-bit or 64-bit? 14:54:47 AnMaster: it's kind of complicated. This is a 64-bit machine, but the programs I run are 32-bit, I don't know about the kernel. 14:54:48 However. 14:54:57 Apparently 10.5 (which I don't have) is 100% 64-bit. 14:55:05 can you run 64-bit programs on 10.4? 14:55:10 Yes, I believe so. 14:55:13 hm 14:55:20 I could try if you want. 14:55:21 interesting mixed userland then 14:55:45 ehird, -m64 to gcc I believe 14:55:55 at least that is what is needed on multilib gcc here 14:56:01 not sure for darwin 14:56:05 Holy fuck, 189% of my CPU is being used. 14:56:09 (Dual core :P) 14:56:14 Okay, what's using it... 14:56:17 Um... prl_disp_service. 14:56:19 Process ID 302. 14:56:24 wat 14:56:27 prl_disp_service? 14:56:35 perl display service? 14:56:37 Oh. prl_disp_service is something to do with Parallels. 14:56:41 ah 14:56:43 * ehird kills it. 14:56:58 lol, I didn't notice 180% of my CPU disappearing 14:57:09 err 14:57:17 189% is rounded to 190% 14:57:26 I forgot the exact number by that line. 14:57:40 But the only reason I noticed it is I started activity monitor to see if it had anything 64-bit related. 14:57:47 AnMaster: got a test program that prints out if it's 64-bit? 14:57:48 ha 14:57:56 err that is kind of hard 14:58:01 well 14:58:09 #include 14:58:36 int main(void) { printf("%zu\n", sizeof(char*)); return 0; } 14:58:41 what about that? 14:58:44 I'll try it. 14:58:47 if 64-bit it should print 8 14:59:16 [ehird:~] % gcc -m64 64bit.c -o 64bit 14:59:16 [ehird:~] % ./64bit 14:59:18 8 14:59:20 [ehird:~] % gcc 64bit.c -o 64bit 14:59:22 [ehird:~] % ./64bit 14:59:24 4 14:59:30 interesting 14:59:34 so 32-bit is default? 14:59:36 mhm 14:59:54 AnMaster: I imagine it's because all the system libs are presumably 32-bit. 15:00:12 So 64-bit wouldn't be very useful, generally. 15:00:13 ehird, well I assume there is a 64-bit libc, or that program wouldn't have worked 15:00:20 True, but what about the OS X apis? 15:00:33 Hm, what's that program that prints out the libs a binary uses? 15:00:36 oh you mean the super sized coca.h? 15:00:40 or whatever the name is 15:01:00 AnMaster: CoreFoundation, Cocoa, and all the 500 million other libs. 15:01:07 QuickTime, .. 15:01:14 #include 15:01:19 int main(void) { return 0; } 15:01:21 I don't think that works. 15:01:23 gcc -E file.c 15:01:29 check the size of the result 15:01:29 :D 15:01:35 ehird, oh? 15:01:38 For one, all OS X headers use CamelCase.h 15:01:43 Two, Cocoa is an objective-c library 15:01:46 ah hm 15:01:57 #include might work. 15:02:00 Or was it Foundation.h? 15:02:01 Let's see. 15:02:01 ehird, so what about C and C++ programs that want to use GUI? 15:02:24 AnMaster: Generally, they shouldn't. Objective-C is a strict superset of C. But they can use Carbon. 15:02:41 Carbon has fewer high-level widgets than Cocoa, though, and it's generally fading away. 15:02:41 err carbon is kind of outdated isn't it? 15:02:48 AnMaster: Finder is written in Carbon. 15:02:52 really? 15:02:53 still 15:02:54 strange 15:02:55 ((Although it probably shouldn't be.)) 15:03:01 AnMaster: carbon isn't outdated 15:03:04 just a bit neglected 15:03:10 ehird, carbon was around at OS 9.... 15:03:20 Not strictly true. 15:03:31 -!- metazilla has joined. 15:03:32 Carbon is an evolution of the API that was there in OS 9. 15:03:33 ehird, really? 15:03:38 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:03:40 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 15:03:41 But the implementation is all new, I think. 15:03:45 err there was a Carbon file in /System/Extensions 15:03:48 err 15:03:53 Was there? OK then 15:03:57 Macintosh HD:System:Extensions 15:03:58 even 15:03:59 :D 15:04:06 OS X is a rather bizarre system. 15:04:18 ehird, nothing compared to pre-OS X 15:04:20 From the start, the kernel is the lovechild of BSD and Mach. 15:05:06 mh 15:05:29 * ehird tries to found Foundation.h 15:05:38 ehird, isn't : invalid in paths on OS X still? 15:05:42 filenames 15:05:52 -!- metazilla has joined. 15:05:55 AnMaster: Yeah, you can use them/ 15:05:57 in paths 15:05:59 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:06:00 indeed 15:06:03 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 15:06:18 that is due to that they were used for path component separator back on pre-OSX 15:06:38 iTunes reports filenames with : paths in its info dialog for tracks. 15:06:42 I don't think anything else does, though. 15:07:00 I think that OS 9 was possibly the only system I used that allowed / in a directory name 15:07:14 Can't do that in OS X for obvious reasons :P 15:07:44 AnMaster: Well, you can. 15:07:45 well true 15:07:47 I just saved a file as a/b.txt 15:07:48 oh? 15:07:51 BUT 15:07:58 % ls a:b.txt 15:07:58 a:b.txt 15:08:04 err 15:08:05 what? 15:08:10 now you totally confused me 15:08:10 In each interface, it displays the character as the one that isn't forbidden. 15:08:14 Crazy, I know. 15:08:15 haha 15:08:21 oh yes crazy indeed 15:08:35 ehird, I thought both were forbidden everywhere? 15:08:36 and % touch foo:bar.txt gives foo/bar.txt in finder, similarly 15:08:41 AnMaster: seems not 15:08:47 wtf 15:08:53 : is forbidden in OS X-land, / is forbidden in unix-land 15:08:54 ehird, what char is it internally? 15:09:03 Probably /. 15:09:09 really? 15:09:11 hm 15:09:22 well I guess that would work better for HFS 15:09:30 HFS+, actually. 15:09:33 well yah 15:09:36 yeah* 15:09:40 I don't know what the + means apart from perhaps "okay, it's slightly more tolerable now" 15:09:46 even MacOS 8 had had HFS+ 15:10:02 ehird, it is the difference between FAT16 and FAT32 basically iirc 15:10:12 large disk issues with plain HFS 15:10:16 Now now, I'd say HFS+ is far superior to fat32. :P 15:10:31 ehird, yes and HFS far superior to fat16 15:10:55 but I mean the 32/+ were both basically created to solve the same issue 15:11:00 % echo '#include ' | cpp -I/System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Headers|wc -l 15:11:04 (snip some misc errors from headers) 15:11:06 174516 15:11:13 It's rather... complete. 15:11:15 ehird, that's pretty massive 15:11:42 the differences between HFS and HFS+ are larger than between FAT16 and FAT32 iirc 15:11:52 I think HFS didn't use a b-tree, but HFS+ does 15:11:55 yeah, HFS+ behaves much like a regular unix fs day-to-day 15:12:00 apart from the case insensitive thing, which I like 15:12:01 I don't remember the details 15:12:05 -!- scriptdevil has joined. 15:12:14 ehird, I have no clue how they managed to stick permissions into HFS+ 15:12:20 Oh wtf, i'm still on reddit's frontpage. 15:12:20 is it possible to set the current cell to 0 in brainfuck? 15:12:21 without breaking classic mac os 15:12:24 That's just ridiculous. 15:12:25 scriptdevil: [-] 15:12:28 or [+] 15:12:41 yes common idiom 15:13:12 ehird: Oh.. Common sense.. I am new to brainfuck. :P 15:13:16 :-) 15:13:23 Common sense is pretty bad in here! 15:13:27 ehird, ah no hm: "Like HFS, HFS Plus uses B*-trees to store most volume metadata." 15:13:31 (from wikipedia) 15:14:07 ehird, the second paragraph on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HFS_Plus describes the differences pretty well 15:14:23 ugh, mac os roman 15:14:26 i think i died 15:14:29 ehird, what? 15:14:39 awful character set 15:14:39 it was another charset 15:15:00 ehird, yes it messed up for us Swedes, iirc åäö mapping differed from everyone else 15:15:05 ha 15:16:30 Jeez, the 'not programming' guys is still the top comment. 15:16:39 Guy got 338 points for it. 15:20:02 ehird, those *.dmg files, how does one open them on non-OSX? 15:20:09 such as on linux 15:20:20 AnMaster: that would be difficult. A dmg is a disk image containing an HFS+ filesystem. 15:20:33 (Why it's used for distributing applications is a rather long story.) 15:20:42 ehird, well linux supports reading hfs+ 15:20:54 http://baghira.sourceforge.net/dmg.htm ? 15:20:56 the issue is it isn't just a dump, it seems to have some compression 15:21:02 Just use mount. 15:21:02 hm *looks* 15:22:03 ehird, that doesn't work for compressed *.dmg 15:22:16 At some point, some part of OS X had a habit of using Unicode combining characters in filenames; the file "bläh" would've been "bla\u0308h". 15:22:21 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=compressed+dmg+linux&btnG=Search <- hm. 15:22:35 AnMaster: I think you're fecked. 15:22:43 ehird, closed format? 15:22:52 AnMaster: Don't think so, I just think there aren't any tools from the looks of it. 15:22:53 AnMaster: If you send me the dmg I can open it for you. 15:23:18 ehird, I don't have one now, but I had one just last week and all this OS X talk reminded me of that 15:23:24 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:23:27 -!- metazilla has joined. 15:23:28 http://vu1tur.eu.org/tools/ ths might work 15:23:31 it says compressed 15:23:32 and has source code 15:23:34 I was unable to find a tool then so I thought now "would be useful for the future" 15:23:39 * AnMaster looks 15:23:55 an 1 in the url? 15:24:12 Yes. 15:24:22 You weird person and your non-clickable lnks. 15:24:24 links 15:24:32 no 15:24:41 just it gives the classical AOL feeling 15:24:44 ;P 15:24:58 Tell that to ais523 :P 15:25:14 ehird, well in ais523 they aren't replacing letters 15:25:31 but if I changed my nick to 4nM4ster or such 15:25:34 it would be that bad 15:25:49 actually s -> 5 iirc 15:26:08 Tell that to w1n5t0n, then, whose name is so irritating that he doesn't even refer to himself by it. 15:26:11 -!- moozilla has joined. 15:26:19 Which, in fact, implies you have a point. 15:26:29 heh 15:26:30 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:26:30 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 15:26:45 ehird, also I never seen this "w1n5t0n" 15:27:04 so I couldn't tell him since I don't know where to find him 15:27:06 He plays Agora & B Nomic. 15:27:06 :P 15:27:09 ah 15:30:33 ehird, hm from looking at the source code it seems to be compressed with libz 15:30:38 with some strange header 15:30:48 huh. 15:31:49 Hm. 15:32:05 -!- scriptdevil has left (?). 15:34:13 ehird, yeah a header called "plist" it seems 15:34:18 Oh, plist. 15:34:22 what? 15:34:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_list 15:34:54 Although unless it's XML or the plaintext format, I doubt it's the same plist. 15:35:54 err 15:35:56 "Since XML files, however, are not the most space-efficient means of storage, version 10.2 introduced a new format where property list files are stored as binary files. Starting with version 10.4, this is the default format for preference files." 15:37:06 Ah. 15:37:09 That'd be it then. 15:37:12 anyway 15:37:15 I don't know 15:37:21 the parsing is rather strange 15:38:19 ehird, it is the xml variant 15:38:33 x.x 15:38:35 since it checks that it begins with the string in plist_begin 15:38:35 In a binary disk image? 15:38:36 and 15:38:37 const char plist_begin[]=""; 15:38:41 My lord. 15:39:22 ehird, it doesn't actually parse xml, it seems to check that it "looks like plist, go to pre-computed offset for value we want, read it" 15:39:28 ha 15:39:29 quite a horrible way to parse xml 15:39:44 are there any non horrible ways 15:39:51 if (!strstr(plist, plist_begin) || 15:39:52 !strstr(&plist[pl_size-20], plist_end)) { 15:39:52 printf("ERROR: Property list is corrupted.\n"); 15:39:52 exit(-1); 15:39:52 } 15:39:57 that is one of the worst ones 15:39:57 hahaha 15:40:35 ehird, also lucky that the source code is short, because it is not well commented 15:40:52 You'd hate my code. 15:40:52 s/lucky/luckily/ 15:41:01 I have like 1 comment per 100 lines. 15:41:21 ehird, 2 / 300 in this case I believe 15:41:24 + copyright header 15:41:55 1/100 is when I'm actually trying to comment. Normally it'd be more like 3 comments per 1000 lines... 15:42:08 But I try to make up for that by having the code simple enough to read. 15:42:14 well 15:42:18 this code isn't simple to read 15:42:24 parts = (char**)realloc(parts, partnum*sizeof(char*)); 15:42:24 partlen = (unsigned int *)realloc(partlen, partnum*sizeof(int)); 15:42:24 if (!parts || !partlen) mem_overflow(); 15:42:24 parts[i] = (char*)malloc(data_size+1); 15:42:24 if (!parts[i]) mem_overflow(); 15:42:27 is just an example 15:42:42 That sounds like it could do with being put into a function. 15:42:45 no clue what is up with "mixed tab/space for same level" indention 15:43:01 ehird, oh yes everything so far is in main() it seems 15:43:11 yep 15:43:14 I'm going to try and compile cfunge with 64 bit because I hate myslf. 15:43:41 Woo, macports has 1.10. I don't have to manually compile bzr. 15:43:44 ehird, mkdir build && cd build && CC=gcc CFLAGS='-m64' cmake .. 15:43:49 something like that 15:43:53 would probably work 15:43:59 assuming cmake is in path 15:44:00 AnMaster: Does that include the SUPAH OPTIMIZED crap? :P 15:44:01 then make after 15:44:13 ehird, not really extra optimised no 15:44:30 if you want that answer these questions three 15:44:36 What is your -march? 15:44:50 What is your favorite colour? 15:45:00 1. ¯\(°_o)/¯ the CPU is intel core 2 duo, fwiw 15:45:04 What is the air speed velocity of a macbook? 15:45:07 2. octarine 15:45:20 3. macbook air? Infinite :P 15:45:33 ehird, I don't know what the -march is for core2 15:45:41 nor does my gcc man page mention it 15:45:45 too old gcc I believe 15:45:50 To the googlemobile -> 15:46:15 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:46:21 -!- moozilla has joined. 15:46:29 Hmm, nothing here i think. 15:46:35 Nor in man gcc. 15:47:31 where's the full list of marches 15:47:33 well on gcc 4.3 at least: CFLAGS="-march=core2 -m64 -O3 -pipe" cmake -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE:STRING=Release .. 15:47:37 ? 15:47:43 ehird, man gcc in my case 15:47:44 ? 15:47:45 AnMaster: -FUNROLL-LOOPS :D 15:47:50 (no, I'm not that crazy.) 15:47:58 Ha, what about the batshit insane flags you use for profiling? 15:47:58 ehird, benchmark show no benefit from it 15:47:59 however 15:47:59 Are they stable? 15:48:14 ehird, for profiling I don't use cmake, I use -combine and -fwhole-program 15:48:15 and such 15:48:28 AnMaster: I remember you pasting a shell script with the most insane optimization flags I ever saw. 15:48:34 Something like unsafe-loops. 15:48:36 yes I know that script 15:48:39 oh yes that too 15:49:01 -!- metazilla has joined. 15:49:03 anyway: on gcc 4.3 at least: CFLAGS="-march=core2 -m64 -O3 -pipe" cmake -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE:STRING=Release -DUSE_GC:BOOL=OFF .. 15:49:08 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:49:10 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 15:49:22 ehird, gcc 4.2 doesn't seem to support core2 15:49:32 no idea what one you have 15:49:34 % gcc --version 15:49:35 i686-apple-darwin8-gcc-4.0.1 (GCC) 4.0.1 (Apple Computer, Inc. build 5363) 15:49:41 oldskool 15:49:41 no core2 support there 15:49:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 15:49:49 so I don't know what is best for it 15:49:55 when it comes to -march 15:49:58 I could try compiling my own gcc. 15:50:06 except I'm not sure I hate myself enough 15:50:19 ehird, well you might want that for other reasons, like llvm-gcc 15:50:31 which is 4.2.1 iirc 15:50:33 why would you use llvm with gcc 15:50:34 instead of clang 15:50:41 ehird, because clang isn't ready yet 15:50:50 nor is llvm :P 15:50:53 it fails with "can't codegen this thing yet" when building cfunge 15:50:54 for example 15:51:12 llvm is unfortunately not as generic as it seems to want to be 15:51:22 true it is too mac specific it seems 15:51:29 er what 15:51:30 bad influence from apple no doubt ;P 15:51:33 I was meaning more, 15:51:38 it's still imperative-centric 15:51:42 ehird, apple sponsor llvm and help develop it 15:51:44 ah right 15:51:46 I don't think it will ever be useful for building functional languages, for instance 15:51:46 that is true 15:51:54 ocaml-llvm 15:51:59 pretty sure I read about it 15:52:13 I want my damn functional CPU 15:52:22 ehird, single assignment? 15:52:24 so do I, but I have no idea how to make one 15:52:28 AnMaster: Yes! 15:52:33 ais523: there's some research regarding them 15:52:46 it's pretty hard to efficiently embed the lambda calculus in the real world :-) 15:53:05 AnMaster: what're your crazy profiling cflags? 15:54:14 * ehird downloads gcc 15:54:17 56MB? It's grown. 15:54:17 http://rafb.net/p/inBv8T82.html 15:54:46 AnMaster: so that's the fastest cfunge you could ever possibly get? XD 15:55:00 ehird, not sure, on intel cpus using icc may be better 15:55:01 I am so tempted to link to http://funroll-loops.info/ here. Oh wait I just did 15:55:05 at least it was on a pentium3 15:55:07 I tried with 15:55:28 ehird, as you will notice it says -march=k8, which means amd64 15:55:38 as in AMD's product 15:55:50 with a different setup other flags may be better 15:56:11 Okay, time to build gcc :x 15:56:14 also I haven't done any sort of exhaustive search of the cflags space 15:56:19 ehird, good luck with that 15:56:31 ehird, it may need special steps on OS X 15:56:34 AnMaster: I will not rest until cfunge runs mycology in minus 1ms 15:57:27 * ehird tries to figure out how to make gcc just build a c compiler 15:58:02 ehird: the setting's in gcc-bf's build script somewhere 15:58:12 ais523: NO :-P 15:58:16 ehird, very funny, on my system it takes around 0.035 s 15:58:17 I think i will google it instead 15:58:27 AnMaster: what, the whole fucking thing? 15:58:28 jesus christ. 15:58:37 ehird, it is like --enable-lang=c 15:58:38 why not just hardcode the output 15:58:39 or such 15:58:40 --enable-languages=c) 15:58:43 without the closing paren 15:58:51 ais523, ah I was almost right then 15:58:59 configure: error: Building GCC requires GMP 4.1+ and MPFR 2.3.0+. 15:59:03 good lord i hate you gcc 15:59:12 why do you need arbitrary precision numbers to compile c 15:59:13 don't everyone have those? 15:59:21 AnMaster: i think those versions are super-recent 15:59:31 ehird, what gcc version? 15:59:34 4.3.2? 15:59:38 yeah. 15:59:44 gmp @4.2.4 (devel, math) 15:59:45 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:59:46 ok, I have gmp 15:59:49 what I have on my arch linux 15:59:55 guess I'll just try pointing it to /opt/local/{include,lib} 16:00:09 gcc 4.3.2 and glibc 2.9 16:00:16 -!- metazilla has joined. 16:00:18 oh and kernel 2.6.28 16:00:29 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:00:29 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 16:00:30 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:00:38 ... 16:00:53 -!- moozilla has joined. 16:01:19 oh jeez 16:01:20 moozilla, care to fix your connection? 16:01:20 checking for correct version of gmp.h... yes 16:01:20 checking for correct version of mpfr.h... no 16:01:22 configure: error: Building GCC requires GMP 4.1+ and MPFR 2.3.0+. 16:01:24 only complain about the one you can't find kthxbai 16:01:40 ehird, err it probably does like: 16:01:41 ehird: never try to read gcc's configure script 16:01:46 AnMaster: yes, I know 16:01:53 ais523: the compiled version? 16:01:59 either 16:02:04 if !gmp_ok() || !mpfr_ok() 16:02:06 error out; 16:02:07 the decompiled version is bad enough 16:02:10 (pseudo code) 16:02:18 yes, no shit :P 16:02:41 i just looked at gcc's configure 16:02:42 and puked 16:02:51 welll 16:02:53 well* 16:02:58 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:03:01 any compiled configure 16:03:02 -!- moozilla has joined. 16:03:03 is crap 16:03:10 moozilla, please fix your connection............. 16:03:28 AnMaster: shut up 16:03:32 it only happens once in a while 16:03:34 and it's like 2 lines 16:03:58 ha apparently the original THX sound only took 325 lines of C instead of 20,000 16:04:05 http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=183734&cid=15182029 (the proof of identity is 404'd now tho) 16:04:13 arvid@tux /mnt/phoenix/llvm/llvm-gcc $ wc -l configure.in 16:04:13 2523 configure.in 16:04:15 wtf? 16:04:22 ok 16:04:23 real wtf 16:04:31 ### WARNING: this file contains embedded tabs. Do not run untabify on this file. 16:04:32 err 16:04:33 wtf 16:04:41 for testing things 16:04:42 i assume 16:04:45 ahy 16:04:47 ah* 16:05:18 *-*-linux* | *-*-gnu* | *-*-k*bsd*-gnu) 16:05:18 ;; 16:05:18 *-*-netbsd* | *-*-freebsd* | *-*-openbsd*) 16:05:18 ;; 16:05:18 http://rafb.net/p/Sf0HFX18.html Pipe to /dev/dsp 16:05:19 err 16:05:23 why is it doing stuff like that 16:05:30 I thought that was what configure.sub did? 16:05:39 config.sub* 16:05:59 ehird, what? 16:06:09 AnMaster: compile, run piped to /dev/dsp 16:06:20 I bet this is a new rickroll or something 16:06:25 ha, no 16:06:35 "CWG[Cgcg[eYcb^bV^eW^be^bVecb^" <-- encoded notes? 16:06:39 beats me 16:06:52 ehird, what does it do then? 16:07:02 try it 16:07:19 main(v,i,z,n,u,t){for(v=-1;;)for(n=pow(/* gcc -lm sig.c; a.out > /dev/dsp */ 16:07:20 well 16:07:26 that main signature isn't valid 16:07:33 who cares, it compils 16:07:34 and runs 16:08:45 ehird, what is that music? 16:08:53 made for the program, I assume 16:08:56 ah 16:09:01 the link points to a demoscene group 16:09:18 ehird, where did you find this? 16:09:29 reddit comments 16:13:11 I wonder what the format of /dev/dsp is. 16:13:13 Well, it's raw PCM. 16:13:20 I wonder how to make PCM. 16:14:20 I guess I should look it up. 16:14:39 ehird, hm about that script I posted, I get much worse speed than a -O3 -fweb -ftracer -frename-registers -fno-ident -fvisibility=hidden -funsafe-loop-optimizations -ftree-vectorize -march=k8 -msse3 now 16:14:49 which is same as that with no profile feed back 16:14:53 strange 16:14:56 it used to be better 16:14:59 You are bat shit insane :-)_ 16:15:07 ehird, thanks, aren't we all in here 16:15:08 Woo, gcc is compiling. 16:15:12 in our own ways 16:17:16 -!- metazilla has joined. 16:17:25 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:17:27 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 16:17:51 ehird, I love the last xkcd 16:17:53 have you read it? 16:18:09 * ehird looks. Ha. 16:18:35 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:18:50 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:19:38 ehird, also irregular webcomic has gone insane recently 16:19:43 just pure insane 16:19:44 O? 16:19:48 not even funny any more 16:20:01 -!- metazilla has joined. 16:20:04 yes sure, the first few of these were funny 16:20:05 Insane is funny. 16:20:08 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:20:09 http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/ 16:20:09 okay 16:20:10 What 16:20:12 is 16:20:12 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 16:20:14 that 16:20:18 ehird, red 16:20:18 AnMaster: link me to the start of whatever the fuck this is 16:20:24 plz 16:20:30 :D 16:20:37 oerjan: or you 16:20:40 I MUST SEE 16:20:55 HELLOOOOOOOOO 16:21:03 ehird, http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/2167.html 16:21:09 except it's crashing on me 16:21:21 AnMaster: okay, that's white 16:21:23 ok next one is blue 16:21:31 then it's darker blue 16:21:31 ahahaha 16:21:33 this is great 16:21:38 ehird, really? 16:21:41 okay now we're BLUE OR RED 16:21:42 KIND OF THING 16:21:44 sure the first few one 16:21:51 WHOA RED 16:21:56 and and and and and and and 16:22:00 MORE SOLID RED 16:22:06 yow 16:22:07 ehird: it may make _slightly_ more sense if you look at 2166 too 16:22:07 it's total red 16:22:19 oerjan: i'll do that 16:22:38 Ah. 16:22:39 oerjan, also he should learn to properly compress his png 16:22:48 Is this... THE END OF IWC? 16:22:57 we don't know, obviously :D 16:23:05 I BET IT IS. 16:23:06 indeed 16:23:13 ehird, someone suggested it was rebooting 16:23:19 also notice the cross over list 16:23:23 i know 16:23:23 XD 16:23:25 it excludes 2 of the comics 16:23:27 someone said 16:23:28 oh 16:23:28 which ones 16:23:36 ehird, spy theme and super hero theme 16:23:45 every theme except Espionage, Supers and Miscellaneous 16:23:50 Miscellaneous too? 16:23:54 huh 16:24:03 I bet the first comic after these is http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1.html 16:24:30 ehird, I certainly hope not 16:24:52 he claimed he wanted do more comics than some other strip before 16:24:58 and I think he haven't reached it by far yet 16:25:06 yes, I mean it'll repeat #1 16:25:16 ehird, but with better image quality? 16:25:24 maybe it'll be entirely drawn 16:25:27 or remade 16:25:32 with new photos 16:25:32 heh 16:25:37 Calvin and Hobbes, at 3 thousand something 16:25:53 oerjan, well last irregular is 2173 16:25:56 currently 16:26:24 the excluded themes are those that weren't included in the buildup, too (no time paradox setup) 16:27:06 ah did the universe end in all of them 16:27:08 oerjan, err what is the misc theme? 16:27:20 everything not included in another theme 16:27:45 the Allosaurus used to be there, but now he's more in Martian i think 16:27:54 yes he is martian indeed I think 16:28:14 he fights the martians 16:29:22 i just hope this won't end with a hobbit pun because then it'll go on until 2196 :D 16:29:39 (someone suggested it on the forums) 16:29:59 ok, it would still be better than IWC _ending_... 16:30:37 we haven't even found out if the Allosaurus won the president reelection... 16:30:56 What happened to dmm killing himself? 16:31:26 2165 16:31:40 that was one of the time paradox setups 16:31:56 ha 16:32:33 i love the thread titels for them on the forum 16:33:00 oerjan, err the hobbit one have moved slightly 16:33:09 sometimes a bit earlier, sometimes a bit later 16:33:16 never earlier i think 16:33:17 iirc it changed somewhere near the beginning 16:33:22 oerjan, hm ok 16:33:28 and it has been on 96 for some time 16:33:34 yes maybe 16:33:36 the last one was 2096 16:33:55 officially, no more than every 100th strip 16:34:10 oerjan, true, but one time it was 1-2 strips off iirc 16:34:19 due to scheduling issues 16:34:22 it was quite early 16:35:30 hm 16:35:33 I checked the misc theme 16:35:39 they tend to have long annotations 16:35:47 much longer than most themes average 16:35:56 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:36:15 I bet IWC keeps doing this until it reaches (0,0,0) 16:36:27 ehird, maybe 16:36:33 and then it stays like that for like 10 comics 16:36:38 and then, something 16:36:48 ehird, well, time will tell 16:36:55 ouch then it might actually hit 2196 16:37:07 -!- metazilla has joined. 16:37:15 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:37:17 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 16:37:19 oerjan: ha 16:37:22 you've figured it out. 16:38:21 what 16:38:22 like 16:38:30 "don't make a hobbit of destroying the world"? 16:38:34 ... 16:38:35 Oh lord. 16:38:38 actually that it might fade to black and end up in the fantasy cave was suggested on the forum 16:38:54 [[Oh well, at least there's no way this could be a bigger disappointment than mezzacotta! =D ]] 16:38:54 ehird, yes it was bad 16:38:56 --2170 16:39:02 ehird, well true 16:39:14 hm what was the fantasy setup 16:39:24 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:39:24 oerjan, ? 16:39:28 -!- moozilla has joined. 16:39:58 the last fantasy strip 16:40:26 no idea 16:40:31 check theme index? 16:41:07 gah IWC is slow 16:42:17 oh 2152, there was no obvious paradox for that theme 16:42:47 oh wait 16:42:50 gcc compile is slowwwwwww 16:42:51 does this mean 16:43:15 fantasy theme explosion and space explosion 16:43:20 or fantasy bright light 16:43:25 or such 16:43:32 except they _have_ gone back in time, of course 16:43:39 oerjan, oh yes true 16:45:07 although destroying the multiverse was mentioned in 2122 16:47:13 http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=blob_plain;f=Documentation/exception.txt;hb=HEAD 16:48:00 * ais523 laughs at oerjan's quit reason 16:48:07 the bus indeed did suck 16:48:07 bbl 16:48:14 I wonder if ais523 is still awake. 16:48:20 yes 16:48:23 more or less 16:48:26 just not concious 16:48:39 I'm IRCing on autopilot, usually a bad sign 16:49:01 ais523: describe intercal's select to me 16:49:08 it got stuck on the ice so we had to walk to the next stop, the bus they promised would pick us up didn't show up, and we had to wait half an hour 16:49:10 ehird: read the manual 16:49:10 (a good way to determine the current awake-level of anyone) 16:49:21 ais523: where's the manual 16:49:28 it was on eso-std.org 16:49:34 ais523: where is it now : 16:49:35 :D 16:49:42 in a tarball from intercal.freeshell.org 16:49:50 how can I unpack tarballs 16:49:57 tar xzvf 16:50:02 where do I put that 16:50:13 (in a few minutes, we should be down to quarks) 16:50:17 ehird: you're running Mac OS X, it should be able to figure it all out for you 16:50:25 what is a os x 16:50:35 ehird: stop trolling 16:50:41 what's trolling <.< 16:52:06 * oerjan would do the obvious thing but then ehird would only ask what's swatting 16:52:26 what's the obvious thing 16:52:59 yes. yes it is. 16:55:38 wtf 16:55:42 W T F 16:55:49 screen saver is supposed to blank screen 16:55:51 black 16:55:58 this time it didn't 16:56:03 it just showed password dialog 16:56:07 without blanking it 16:57:32 oerjan, I think it is time for the frying pan 16:57:33 ... 16:57:47 for whom? 16:57:58 your screen saver? 16:58:08 oerjan, ehird 16:58:17 and for my screen saver, it seems to work now 16:58:24 no clue what caused blanking to fail 16:58:28 i would generally recommend against using frying pans on screen savers, incidentally. 16:58:36 -!- metazilla has joined. 16:58:39 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:58:46 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 16:58:52 oerjan, I agree there 16:59:36 although a frying pan _in_ a screen saver might work, as long as it is properly fastened. 17:00:13 oerjan, my screen saver is just blanking + kde password dialog 17:00:32 du du du du du 17:00:36 du du du du du du. 17:00:47 eg eg eg eg eg 17:00:52 eg eg eg eg eg eg. 17:00:57 du -h 17:01:02 82 /bin/du 17:01:08 man 17:01:11 that was fast 17:01:12 ed 17:01:20 -!- metazilla has joined. 17:01:21 ? 17:01:25 cat 17:01:29 meow 17:01:29 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:01:30 ? 17:01:31 ? 17:01:31 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 17:01:33 40 /usr/bin/du 17:01:33 I win 17:01:33 ! 17:01:34 ! 17:01:35 ! 17:01:41 ((how is du that small)) 17:01:57 ehird, err 17:01:57 oh 17:01:59 that's kilobytes 17:02:00 freebsd win 17:02:01 yikes 17:02:03 $ du /usr/bin/du 17:02:04 8 /usr/bin/du 17:02:04 $ du -h /usr/bin/du 17:02:04 12.0K /usr/bin/du 17:02:05 :P 17:02:15 $ du -h /usr/bin/du 17:02:16 8.0K /usr/bin/du 17:02:21 heh 17:02:26 the GNU one us 82 KB 17:02:27 btw 17:02:33 damn gnu 17:02:36 wtf is in it 17:02:42 :/ 17:02:58 openbsd's is bigger than free :P 17:03:11 more secure! 17:03:17 3kb of security 17:03:34 it probably contains a buggy implementation of half of emacs 17:03:37 Badger, I mean it GNU du more than half the size of cfunge, and cfunge supports lots of fingerprints 17:03:51 heh 17:03:56 gnu ca is hilarious 17:03:58 *cat 17:04:07 56 KB? 17:04:20 freebsd one is 10 KB 17:04:22 $ du /bin/cat 17:04:22 208 /bin/cat 17:05:02 sheesh did IWC get reddited or something 17:05:29 AnMaster: why is my cat so fat :P 17:05:30 DMM supposedly just made the site _more_ efficient... 17:05:44 oerjan, oh? 17:05:58 oerjan, oh yes to use javascript or something 17:06:19 rather than reloading the whole page on options change 17:06:30 but i assume he did more than that 17:06:49 oerjan, that means sending much more data for those who don't want the extra stuff 17:06:55 % du -h /bin/cat 17:06:56 36K /bin/cat 17:06:58 fucking what 17:07:07 lols 17:07:07 ehird, that is still less than GNU cat 17:07:08 hm 17:07:24 $ du -h /bin/cat 17:07:24 104K /bin/cat 17:07:26 :> 17:07:47 but still the optional parts are just text 17:08:08 shouldn't be that different 17:08:29 oh, idea 17:08:30 5.4M /bin 17:08:36 AnMaster? :P 17:08:40 ehird? 17:08:50 fbsd ~ $ du -h /bin 17:08:51 1.2M /bin 17:08:57 :D 17:09:09 Badger, note that is using /usr/bin/du 17:09:16 du isn't in /bin on freebsd 17:09:24 nor on openbsd 17:09:33 so this isn't a fair comparison for my linux system 17:09:37 that even has bash in /bin 17:09:39 $ du -sh /bin 17:09:40 9,7M /bin 17:09:44 also 17:09:47 $ du -h /bin 17:09:48 6.7M/bin 17:09:49 6.6M /bin 17:09:54 that linux system is 64bit 17:09:58 140M /usr/bin 17:10:02 while the freebsd system is 32bit 17:10:15 ha 17:10:15 23.5M /usr/bin 17:10:22 ehird, hey OS X installs all their stuff outside /usr/bin 17:10:25 * ehird tries /opt/local 17:10:31 $ du -sh /usr/bin 17:10:31 29M /usr/bin 17:10:32 AnMaster: i'm talking about unix tools here. 17:10:33 on freebsd 17:10:48 ehird, well on my system X and what not are in /usr/bin 17:10:54 my linux system that is 17:11:03 * ehird is trying /opt/local 17:11:04 (macports) 17:11:05 ehird, so that is impossible to compare 17:11:11 probably like 5000000000G 17:11:12 o_O 17:11:19 /obsd: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1, statically linked, not stripped 17:11:23 457M /usr/bin <-- gentoo, and that comains KDE 17:11:25 * Badger wonders what the devil that is 17:11:31 Badger, kernel? 17:11:34 o 17:11:34 boot loader? 17:11:46 o[pen]bsd 17:11:52 ehird, well yes 17:11:55 but what for open bsd 17:11:56 I meant, oh 17:11:58 kernel 17:12:00 like vmlinux :P 17:12:01 hm 17:12:05 kernel wouldn't be that type 17:12:07 would it? 17:12:09 that is /boot/kernel/kernel or so here 17:12:11 on freebsd 17:12:19 Badger: % file /obsd 17:12:33 $ du -sh /boot/kernel/kernel 17:12:33 5.6M /boot/kernel/kernel 17:12:39 ehird, he ran that above 17:12:41 128M/boot 17:12:56 ais523, unfair for me, I have several kernels in /boot 17:12:58 some outdated 17:12:59 and such 17:13:11 it ends up at 99 MB due to that 17:13:12 -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 8.2M 2007-10-11 02:24 mach_kernel 17:13:14 I have loads of kernels in /boot 17:13:16 on my fbsd 17:13:20 heh 17:13:21 I have to delete the old backups to be able to upgrade my OS 17:13:22 6.4G /opt/local 17:13:23 obsd has /boot 17:13:24 it completed! 17:13:24 hey 17:13:30 9,6M /boot <-- my gentoo linux 17:13:31 $ file /boot 17:13:31 /boot: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1, statically linked, stripped 17:13:31 6.4GB :D 17:13:32 :D 17:13:34 :PPPPPPPPP 17:13:49 Badger, well on obsd it is the boot loader 17:13:53 elsewhere it is a directory 17:13:57 mmm 17:14:00 guess so 17:14:04 so obsd must be the kernel 17:14:07 hah 17:14:32 Badger, check docs? 17:14:42 oh weird 17:14:42 *bsd have good man pages usually 17:15:01 Badger, what is weird? 17:15:14 I sshed to another box 17:15:15 linux 17:15:19 yes and? 17:15:20 and um 17:15:25 /boot is empty 17:15:28 but I can cd to it 17:15:31 Badger, maybe not mounted 17:15:37 I don't auto-mount my /boot 17:15:40 ah 17:15:50 standard practise on linux 17:16:34 gcc still compiles 17:16:41 ehird, it takes ages yes 17:16:47 you know it will likely boot strap itself 17:16:50 3 stages 17:17:06 ehird, check if the output contains xgcc 17:17:07 heh, presumably it's faster in a cross-compile for that reason 17:17:10 it took like half an hour last time 17:17:17 /Users/ehird/gcc-4.3.2/host-i386-apple-darwin8.11.1/gcc/xgcc -B/Users/ehird/gcc-4.3.2/host-i386-apple-darwin8.11.1/gcc/ -B/usr/local/i386-apple-darwin8.11.1/bin/ -B/usr/local/i386-apple-darwin8.11.1/lib/ -isystem /usr/local/i386-apple-darwin8.11.1/include -isystem /usr/local/i386-apple-darwin8.11.1/sys-include -c -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -O2 -g -g -O2 -m64 -I. -I../../.././libiberty/../include -W -Wall -Wwrite-strings -Wc++-compat -Wstrict-prototypes -pedanti 17:17:20 c ../../.././libiberty/regex.c -o regex.o 17:17:22 up to that 17:17:37 ehird, looks like it is compiling the third stage using the second one 17:17:52 ehird, also that looks fucked 17:17:56 fucked, why? 17:18:07 I'm not going to make install this btw 17:18:09 just make 17:18:10 are you building a -m64 with "host-i386-apple-darwin8.11.1" 17:18:11 ? 17:18:12 and use it from there 17:18:14 AnMaster: er 17:18:16 not -m64 17:18:20 yes 17:18:22 look below 17:18:23 AnMaster: compiling third using second is correct 17:18:25 A 32-bit compiler can compile a 64-bit binary, I'm sure 17:18:29 if they aren't identical binaries, something went wrong 17:18:31 well true 17:18:35 Woo 17:18:35 ehird, also it needs to be installed 17:18:37 gcc compiled 17:18:39 AnMaster: does it? 17:18:39 I assume you used --prefix 17:18:44 no. 17:18:45 ehird, afaik yes 17:18:47 maybe wrong 17:18:48 I was just planning on using it as it is here. 17:18:54 it works as-is 17:18:58 ais523, really? 17:18:59 huh 17:18:59 at least if you invoke xgcc directly 17:19:06 ok, so where's my final gcc built to? 17:19:07 as that one's designed to be run from the build treee 17:19:08 ais523, well using the final stage I meant 17:19:18 xgcc would be fine 17:19:23 as long as it does core2 17:19:37 AnMaster: the final and intermediate stage are bit-for-bit identical 17:19:45 ehird, even in support files? 17:19:47 err 17:19:48 ais523, ^ 17:20:08 oklofok: http://www.mezzacotta.net/singles/jokes_explained_explained_explained_explained.php 17:20:20 not so sure about that, but the advantages of comparison are so high that you'd expect them to try hard to make it work 17:20:28 % ./host-i386-apple-darwin8.11.1/gcc/xgcc --version 17:20:28 xgcc (GCC) 4.3.2 17:20:48 okay 17:20:53 AnMaster: paste your cfunge cflags again? 17:21:41 ehird, I recommend CFLAGS="-march=core2 -pipe -O3 -ftracer -frename-register -fweb" for you 17:21:42 also 17:21:52 ehird, you need to set CC *before* you call cmake 17:21:53 AnMaster: what about the unsafe loop optimizations! 17:21:54 or it breaks 17:22:12 * ehird uses ccmake 17:22:18 for the config gui :P 17:22:18 ehird, same for ccmake 17:22:23 you must set it in the env 17:22:24 before 17:22:27 or it won't work 17:22:37 ehird: you check the program first to make sure the loop optimisations are in fact safe in the context of the program 17:22:44 ais523, indeed 17:22:47 xgcc: error trying to exec 'cc1': execvp: No such file or directory 17:22:50 need to adjust PATH :P 17:22:53 ehird, sure 17:23:11 -!- ais523 has quit. 17:23:27 -!- metazilla has joined. 17:23:33 AnMaster: does cmake need installing? 17:23:35 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:23:39 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 17:23:40 ehird, no clue 17:23:50 I only installed it through my package manager 17:23:54 never tried any other way 17:23:59 err 17:24:01 i mean cfunge 17:24:06 ah cfunge, no need 17:24:40 ehird, oh do you have ncurses? I have no clue if the ncurses detection I use works on os x 17:24:42 CMake Error: The C compiler 17:24:42 "/Users/ehird/gcc-4.3.2/host-i386-apple-darwin8.11.1/gcc/xgcc" is not able to 17:24:44 compile a simple test program. 17:24:46 balrgh 17:24:56 ld: can't locate file for: -lgcc 17:24:56 x.x 17:24:59 ehird, you managed to get it to use the right c compiler at least 17:25:00 need LD_LIBRARY_PATH 17:25:01 good! 17:25:01 or whatever 17:25:06 ehird, yes probably 17:25:42 ehird, also I assume you enabled multilib when compiling? otherwise you won't have any 64-bit libgcc 17:25:44 :P 17:25:56 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:26:00 hey no one said gcc compiling was fun! 17:26:01 -!- moozilla has joined. 17:26:02 Er, what's multilib? 17:26:17 Is it enabled by default? 17:26:17 ehird, both 32-bit and 64-bit libs, you have it for your system gcc and your libc 17:26:28 ehird, I don't know if it is on by default 17:26:29 libgcc_s_x86_64.1.dylib 17:26:31 Am I safe? 17:26:35 ehird, maybe 17:26:39 (in ~/gcc-4.3.2/host-i386-apple-darwin8.11.1/gcc) 17:26:40 I don't know for dylib 17:26:46 dylib is just .so for os x 17:26:50 ehird, you may not have any 32-bit one then 17:26:56 That's ok. 17:27:06 I'm not using this for anyhing else 17:27:13 "/Users/ehird/gcc-4.3.2/host-i386-apple-darwin8.11.1/gcc/xgcc" is not able to 17:27:13 compile a simple test program. 17:27:15 Butts 17:27:18 ld: can't locate file for: -lgcc 17:27:19 fsdfsdf 17:27:22 guess I need to symlink 17:27:38 aha 17:27:39 libbackend.a libgcc.a libgcc_eh.a libgcov.a 17:27:51 they just had to dyliberately call it something different 17:27:57 groan 17:28:02 Woo 17:28:04 It configuring 17:28:16 why osx? 17:28:24 AnMaster: will this compile all fingerprints by default? 17:28:28 Badger: it sucks less than everything else 17:28:34 WARNING: This project requires version 2.6 of CMake. You are running version 17:28:34 2.4.6. 17:28:34 heh 17:28:37 I hate you, AnMaster. 17:28:40 ehird, it will disable TERM and NCRS if it can't find ncurses library and/or headers 17:28:57 but apart from that it will compile all 17:29:07 also this depends on version 17:29:12 NCRS isn't in last release 17:29:12 bzr top 17:29:17 ah well 17:29:21 then you have NCRS 17:29:32 This is the biggest waste of time ever :) 17:29:36 ehird, tell me if mycoterm works on your computer, it would be nice to know 17:29:42 also what do you mean waste of time? 17:29:45 just install last cmake 17:29:51 can't be hard to upgrade 17:29:55 I compiled freaking gcc just to squeeze a few ms out of a befunge interpreter. 17:30:02 on my system it is just a single command as root 17:30:05 to upgrade a package 17:30:16 making my package manager upgrade 17:30:22 yes, yes 17:30:23 isn't it as easy on OS X? 17:30:25 % sudo port upgrade cmake 17:30:28 stop trolling :P 17:30:33 ehird, ok sorry 17:30:52 macports is written in tcl xD 17:30:53 now I seriously hope windows never gets an unified package manager 17:31:05 that would kind of make windows suck less 17:31:07 which would be bad 17:31:28 ehird, also don't you upgrade weekly btw? 17:31:30 all ports 17:31:38 no 17:31:41 huh 17:31:45 i'm lazy and the existing versions work for anything but cfunge 17:32:01 ehird, no I upgraded myself to 2.6 because OSG needed it 17:32:19 then the 2.4 cmakefile didn't work well with 2.6, it had lots of warnings then 17:32:22 so I upgraded 17:32:30 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 17:32:33 and yes cmake sucks, but the alternatives suck more 17:32:34 :( 17:32:45 for example consider that PATH thing you needed for CC 17:32:49 scons sucks a bit less 17:32:51 with scons that would have been a pain 17:32:57 since it would have ignored your env variables 17:33:11 I tried to use rake (ruby make) for something, it works well for some things but not building progarms 17:33:12 programs 17:33:16 well 17:33:22 specialized ones work well usually 17:33:26 like the emake for erlang 17:33:33 rake isn't for making ruby. 17:33:36 oh? 17:33:39 rake is a generic build tool written in ruby 17:33:41 aha 17:33:51 unfortunately, it doesn't let you do things like %.o from %.c 17:33:59 progarms, for when your software needs to get a grip on things 17:34:05 oh just list every file by hand 17:34:07 i.e., you have to manually make the file targets (of course, you can just glob them which is easy enough) 17:34:09 AnMaster: no 17:34:09 ehird, or use plain make? 17:34:13 you'd have to duplicate it for every item 17:34:13 but 17:34:21 Dir['src/*.c'].each do |src| 17:34:29 file blah => [src] do 17:34:29 ... 17:34:30 err 17:34:31 end 17:34:32 end 17:34:33 I can't read that? 17:34:37 AnMaster: basically 17:34:37 as in what does it do 17:34:41 glob src/*.c 17:34:43 then make a file target for each 17:34:44 right 17:34:47 without writing it all out 17:34:50 but still, it's pretty ugly 17:35:06 FILE(GLOB CFUNGE_SOURCES RELATIVE ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR} src/*.c 17:35:06 ) 17:35:09 well it is longer 17:35:13 since I list more 17:35:21 like subdirs and included libraries 17:35:26 yeah, it's just that rake doesnt' have a general understanding of pattern rulse 17:35:28 but that is pretty horrible syntax yes 17:35:32 I could build something on top of it 17:35:42 ehird, I think there is a REGEX or some such 17:35:46 apart from GLOB 17:35:47 in cmake 17:36:04 also UPPERCASE shows it is a SERIOUS QUERY LANGUAGE... err wait what? 17:36:05 I could probably do something like: 17:36:08 I meant BUILD SYSTEM 17:36:09 of course 17:36:30 wait 17:36:32 that would rock 17:36:35 SQLbuild 17:36:47 pattern %{build/\1.o} => [%r{src/(.+).c}] do 17:36:48 ... 17:36:49 end 17:37:04 SELECT * FROM src LIKE '~.c' INTO SOURCEFILES; 17:37:05 :D 17:37:09 ugh 17:37:13 ehird, yes horrible 17:37:21 also broken sql syntax I think 17:37:30 * AnMaster don't remember LIKE pattern rules 17:37:42 cmake builds slowly 17:37:47 ehird, it is C++ 17:37:51 what did you expect? 17:37:52 lol 17:37:52 SYNTAX QUITE LOUD 17:38:02 -!- metazilla has joined. 17:38:07 OERJAN, YES INDEED 17:38:10 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:38:14 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 17:38:22 moozilla, please fix your connection 17:38:29 http://www.mezzacotta.net/singles/jokes_explained_explained_explained_explained.php I think I'll write X := X Explained 17:39:40 AnMaster: stop bugging him 17:39:42 it only bothers you 17:40:16 -!- metazilla has joined. 17:40:25 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:40:27 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 17:40:30 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:40:48 O_o 17:40:53 -!- moozilla has joined. 17:41:14 looks like a ghostbot 17:42:09 "# If black boxes on planes are indestructible, why isn't the whole plane made of that material?" <-- actually, why? 17:42:22 AnMaster: consider reading to the end 17:42:32 ah right 17:42:57 right that makes sense 17:43:21 maybe if they use carbon nanotubes... 17:43:45 oerjan, well maybe it would work to make certain important structural components out of them 17:43:52 anyway even if they did it wouldn't help much 17:44:08 i mean, those are supposed to be both strong and light iirc 17:44:10 because even if the plane survived the crash would cause a high G load 17:44:13 on anyone inside 17:44:29 s/ would/, it would/ 17:45:17 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:45:24 yes but not worse than currently 17:45:30 wow 17:45:43 mezacotta breaks when you zoom the page 17:45:49 the comic get scrollbars 17:54:52 -!- metazilla has joined. 17:55:00 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:55:04 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 17:57:26 -!- metazilla has joined. 17:57:26 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:57:33 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 17:58:06 i never metazilla that would stay 17:58:27 hah 17:59:48 ehird, progress? 18:00:18 I can (try) to help with specific issues if you want, hopefully none of them are due to the way you compiled gcc 18:01:57 cmake compiled 18:03:01 now to try again 18:03:06 % PATH=~/gcc-4.3.2/host-i386-apple-darwin8.11.1/gcc:$PATH CC=xgcc DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH=~/gcc-4.3.2/host-i386-apple-darwin8.11.1/gcc:$DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH LD_LIBRARY_PATH=~/gcc-4.3.2/host-i386-apple-darwin8.11.1/gcc:$LD_LIBRARY_PATH ccmake .. 18:03:22 yay it configures 18:03:27 AnMaster: where do i set cflags in ccmake 18:03:31 ah t 18:03:36 CMAKE_C_FLAGS 18:03:39 CMAKE_C_FLAGS_RELEASE 18:03:42 AnMaster: paste your cflags again? 18:03:46 and is release on by default? 18:04:16 hm 18:04:25 ehird, not release by default no 18:04:34 ok, how do i make it release 18:04:47 there is a CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE setting somewhere there 18:04:51 can you find it? 18:04:55 yep 18:04:57 make it RELEASE? 18:05:00 Release 18:05:09 case doesn't matter though 18:05:14 paste your cflags? 18:05:23 I suggested for your system: 18:05:47 ehird, I recommend CFLAGS="-march=core2 -pipe -O3 -ftracer -frename-register -fweb" for you 18:06:02 CMAKE_OSX_ARCHITECTURES i386 18:06:05 do I have to change anything there 18:06:14 ehird, don't know, it doesn't show up on linux 18:06:27 ehird, doesn't it display help in the lower status bar 18:06:32 just above the key help info 18:06:37 a white bar on your black console 18:06:42 CMAKE_OSX_ARCHITECTURES: Build architectures for OSX 18:06:50 ahh 18:06:53 ehird, well that doesn't help me decide what it does 18:06:54 it's i386 vs ppc 18:07:00 maybe related to universal binary? 18:07:03 what's the name of i386 that is 64 bit? 18:07:15 also /me adds -m64 to the cflags 18:07:18 ehird, on *linux* it is x86_64 usually, but that may differ 18:07:26 I don't know for OS X 18:07:26 ill ask #cmake 18:07:44 ehird, with your custom gcc I wouldn't touch CMAKE_OSX_ARCHITECTURES 18:07:52 try it the way it is and see if it works 18:07:56 USE_GC OFF 18:07:59 should taht be on 18:08:01 ehird, keep it off 18:08:03 faster 18:08:04 :P 18:08:05 ok 18:08:06 but 18:08:09 AnMaster: leaks memory? 18:08:14 ehird, valgrind clean 18:08:21 k 18:08:33 apart from a few bytes of still reachable in REFC, but that is ok 18:08:53 same for SOCK and FILE, all of them need to track global lists of handles 18:09:21 so basically they are like "static" arrays allocated dynamically 18:10:33 ehird, oh and I haven't tried gc + ncurses yet so I would definitely keep GC off atm 18:11:25 x86_64 seems ok 18:11:28 * ehird puts it in 18:11:38 ok lets try this 18:11:43 Press [enter] to edit option CMake Version 2.6 - patch 2 18:11:43 Press [c] to configure 18:11:45 Press [h] for help Press [q] to quit without generating 18:11:46 c 18:11:47 Press [t] to toggle advanced mode (Currently On) 18:11:49 what now :| 18:11:51 c 18:11:53 then g 18:11:56 puts me back to the same screen 18:11:59 yes 18:12:01 but with g option 18:12:04 I bet? 18:12:05 CURSES_EXTRA_LIBRARY CURSES_EXTRA_LIBRARY-NOTFOUND 18:12:05 ? 18:12:08 ok 18:12:11 what does that mean 18:12:13 I don't know about that either 18:12:17 LIBRT_LOCATION LIBRT_LOCATION-NOTFOUND 18:12:18 it is the ncurses check from cmake 18:12:23 ok on os x 18:12:30 the needed function is in libc on *bsd 18:12:34 so I assume the same on os x 18:12:36 ok did g 18:12:37 it exited 18:12:38 now just make? 18:12:39 make 18:12:40 then 18:12:41 yep 18:12:47 xgcc: error trying to exec 'cc1': execvp: No such file or directory 18:12:49 err "yep" was NOT a command 18:12:49 need the PATH again 18:12:49 :P 18:12:53 ehird, probably yes 18:12:58 % PATH=~/gcc-4.3.2/host-i386-apple-darwin8.11.1/gcc:$PATH CC=xgcc DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH=~/gcc-4.3.2/host-i386-apple-darwin8.11.1/gcc:$DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH LD_LIBRARY_PATH=~/gcc-4.3.2/host-i386-apple-darwin8.11.1/gcc:$LD_LIBRARY_PATH make 18:13:01 i feel just like a gentoo use. 18:13:02 user 18:13:05 looks horrible 18:13:14 [ 1%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/lib/libghthash/cfunge_mempool.c.o 18:13:14 cc1: error: unrecognized command line option "-arch" 18:13:15 cc1: error: unrecognized command line option "-frename-register" 18:13:17 wtf 18:13:18 butts 18:13:25 butts on a freaking stick 18:13:25 ehird, I got no clue what is going on there 18:13:29 err 18:13:32 yes I do 18:13:35 it is -march not -arch 18:13:43 ha ha ha well that's your fault the 18:13:43 n 18:13:51 er 18:13:52 ehird, and -frename-registers 18:13:53 I have no march 18:13:56 ehird, I recommend CFLAGS="-march=core2 -pipe -O3 -ftracer -frename-register -fweb" for you 18:14:00 1) march 18:14:01 I copied that right in 18:14:06 i guess -arch is being passed to cc1 18:14:08 2) yes rename-register was wrong 18:14:08 by xgcc 18:14:19 ehird, don't know 18:14:21 it doesnt recognize -arch because it was only compiled for 64 bit? 18:14:22 maybe? 18:14:26 gimme your 64 bit test program again 18:14:27 plz 18:14:31 a sec 18:14:51 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:15:00 out of scrollback 18:15:02 -!- moozilla has joined. 18:15:04 * AnMaster checks log 18:15:39 jan 07 15:58:08 #include 18:15:39 jan 07 15:58:36 int main(void) { printf("%zu\n", sizeof(char*)); return 0; } 18:15:56 ehird, anyway check if it can compile hello world with those flags 18:16:00 the return 0 is redundant 18:16:02 % ./a.out 18:16:02 4 18:16:03 (btw) 18:16:07 Deewiant, no? 18:16:08 I hate my life. 18:16:10 AnMaster: yes. 18:16:15 Deewiant, why? 18:16:18 AnMaster: C99. 18:16:25 Deewiant, really? 18:16:28 AnMaster: yes. 18:16:40 Deewiant, paragraph? 18:16:42 YOU LIED TO ME 18:16:43 so, AnMaster 18:16:46 AnMaster: beats me. :-P 18:16:48 do i have to recompile gcc 18:16:49 if you say yes 18:16:51 I will kill you 18:16:57 ehird, did you include -m64 to gcc there? 18:17:14 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:17:15 well now I did and: 18:17:17 ld64-59.2 failed: library not found for -lgcc 18:17:20 -!- moozilla has joined. 18:17:21 ah 18:17:21 I need multilib don't i 18:17:22 ahahahahah 18:17:25 no multilib 18:17:27 indeed 18:17:38 ahahahahah 18:17:39 what's going on? 18:17:46 Deewiant: i compiled a new gcc 18:17:49 just to compile cfunge fast 18:17:52 and I compiled it wrong 18:17:54 and it took hours 18:17:57 how wrong 18:18:03 Deewiant, I think ehird got a mental shock 18:18:03 no multilib 18:18:07 decipher, no 64-bit libgcc 18:18:09 err 18:18:10 Deewiant, ^ 18:18:14 anyway, so I am about to hop on a plane to sweden 18:18:16 track down AnMaster 18:18:17 and kill him 18:18:20 ehird, why? 18:18:20 -> 18:18:25 you should have read the docs 18:18:28 ;P 18:18:31 AnMaster: if cfunge didn't exist this wouldn't have happened 18:18:31 now -> 18:18:32 so he's got a 32-bit system and he's trying to build a 64-bit gcc, or what? 18:18:39 Deewiant: 64 bit system 18:18:42 but gcc only built 32 bit shit 18:18:43 -> 18:18:47 Deewiant, he has 64-bit OS X with 32-bit userland 18:18:56 right 18:18:56 system gcc is multilib 18:19:00 ew 18:19:02 but he wanted last 18:19:04 just set up a chroot 18:19:08 Deewiant, on OS X? 18:19:16 os x is certified unix 18:19:17 I got no fcking clue what that does 18:19:18 of course it freaking does chroots 18:19:19 I don't know anything about OS X 18:19:21 yes 18:19:28 But I'd assume it can chroot 18:19:31 but where would you get a system to run in the chroot? 18:19:35 umm 18:19:37 you can't just download a linux distro 18:19:38 / 18:19:42 copy shit in 18:19:42 :P 18:19:50 install a full 64-bit userland into the chroot 18:19:51 AnMaster: can I get multilib __without__ recompiling all of gcc 18:19:53 _say_ _yes_ 18:19:53 ehird, wouldn't it be rather pointless to copy same old gcc in it? 18:19:59 ehird, I don't know 18:20:04 The answer is yes 18:20:07 now tell me how :P 18:20:12 ehird, I said I don't know 18:20:14 dammit 18:20:17 * ehird make clean 18:20:22 * ehird make suicide 18:20:23 well 18:20:29 I don't know know OS X well 18:20:29 but 18:20:31 GOOD BYE GCC 18:20:46 AnMaster: what is the multilib option 18:20:52 also, how can I make gcc build with m64 18:20:53 mkdir gcc-build; cd gcc-build; ../gcc-source/configure --prefix=$HOME/gcc43 --help 18:21:09 --with-multilib i guess 18:21:18 and CFLAGS="-m64" on cmd line of configure 18:21:20 that sounds correct 18:21:29 ehird, and I don't know about that 18:21:33 % CFLAGS="-m64" ./configure --enable-languages=c --with-gmp=/opt/local --with-mpfr=/opt/local --with-multilib --prefix=$HOME/gcc43 18:21:34 will that work 18:21:34 ehird, err 18:21:36 wait 18:21:37 if you say yes and it doesn't 18:21:38 what about host? 18:21:38 be prepared to die 18:21:42 ah. 18:21:44 good point. 18:21:49 ehird, I'm not sure about this 18:21:55 since I never done any build like that 18:21:58 how do I find out what host/target it defaults to? 18:22:05 I only ever used package manger and done llvm-gcc builds 18:22:20 ehird, 18:22:20 arvid@tux /mnt/phoenix/llvm/llvm-gcc $ ./config.guess 18:22:20 x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu 18:22:36 find the config.guess file 18:22:37 i386-apple-darwin8.11.1 18:22:39 see what it thinks 18:22:44 ok, so I s/i386/x86_64/. 18:22:51 ehird, unknown if that works 18:22:53 it may not 18:23:00 --build=BUILD configure for building on BUILD [guessed] 18:23:00 --host=HOST cross-compile to build programs to run on HOST [BUILD] 18:23:02 --target=TARGET configure for building compilers for TARGET [HOST] 18:23:05 so I just set all of them to the same thing then 18:23:20 ehird, um maybe or maybe not 18:23:28 it could result in a cross compiled build 18:23:31 or a cross compiler 18:23:37 well host is for cross compiling 18:23:40 ehird, ais knows this better 18:23:45 i'll just do build 18:23:52 % CFLAGS="-m64" ./configure --enable-languages=c --with-gmp=/opt/local --with-mpfr=/opt/local --with-multilib --prefix=$HOME/gcc43 --build=x86_64-apple-darwin8.11.1 18:23:52 GO 18:23:58 ehird, that would probably mean it look for the host gcc 18:24:01 with that name 18:24:02 not sure 18:24:04 checking for correct version of gmp.h... yes 18:24:04 checking for correct version of mpfr.h... no 18:24:05 aha 18:24:07 ahahahaha 18:24:09 ha 18:24:11 huh 18:24:17 a 18:24:18 that's odd 18:24:18 ahahaha 18:24:19 ha 18:24:21 wrong path? 18:24:40 ehird, also you should build gcc out of tree 18:24:46 the gcc devs say so 18:24:53 and not in a subdir 18:25:03 ha. ha. ha 18:25:19 ehird, well gcc devs say everything else is unsupported iirc 18:25:22 i want to die :D 18:25:23 just a friendly warning 18:25:26 mpfr @2.3.2_0+darwin_i386 (active) 18:25:28 ok i have that 18:25:34 well 18:25:43 this worked last time 18:25:45 ehird, I would try skipping host 18:25:51 err --build 18:25:53 and those 18:25:59 ahh 18:26:00 Variants: darwin_i386, darwin_x86 18:26:01 multilib should mean both work 18:26:01 I need x86 18:26:01 and 18:26:03 instead of i386 18:26:05 in macports 18:26:10 not setting cflags 18:26:14 % sudo port uninstall mpfr; sudo port install mpfr +darwin_x86 18:26:24 ehird, multilib variant? 18:26:31 thikn so 18:26:47 ehird or your end up with breaking stuff due to missing 32-bit version :D 18:27:00 that would be funny wouldn't it? 18:27:04 lol 18:27:07 yes 18:27:13 this is so not worth cfunge 18:27:17 i bet i'm gaining like 18:27:19 1ms speed 18:27:20 for being 64 bit 18:27:27 ehird, anyway I suggest dropping CFLAGS and --build from GCC line 18:27:34 nah, ill try it like this 18:27:34 but keeping multilib of course 18:27:35 btw 18:27:40 64 bit is faster with cfunge 18:27:41 right 18:27:45 ehird, a bit in fact 18:27:54 due to more registers and better calling convention 18:27:55 oh jesus 18:27:56 mainly 18:27:56 AnMaster: 18:28:02 ehird, yes? 18:28:02 please resume complaining to metazilla 18:28:04 /moozilla 18:28:09 i just switched to #reddit 18:28:14 ehird, what? 18:28:15 ehird: i guess that you will have used 100x more time on this than you'll ever save on the cfunge runs, combined :D 18:28:19 he's arguing with someone that a supernatural god can be objectively proved 18:28:25 oerjan, agreed 18:28:32 oerjan, for linux this would be easy always 18:28:35 x_x 18:28:37 on gentoo you just do 18:29:50 crossdev -t arm-unknown-linux-gnu -s3 18:29:57 and it builds a cross compiler to arm for you 18:30:01 naturally, god cannot be proved. supernaturally, however, he can. 18:30:07 -s3 means "up to C compiler but skip C++ one" 18:30:16 18:30:32 * ehird reruns configure 18:30:38 checking for correct version of mpfr.h... no 18:30:38 gahwhat 18:30:42 huh 18:30:43 mpfr @2.3.2_0+darwin_i386+darwin_x86 18:30:43 strange 18:30:44 facepalm 18:30:49 ehird, how strange 18:30:55 [ehird:~] % sudo port uninstall mpfr; sudo port install mpfr -darwin_i386 +darwin_x86 18:30:57 ehird, what is that version string from? 18:30:58 let's try that again 18:31:05 AnMaster: macports 18:31:13 ehird: see the configure.log to see what it's missing 18:31:23 its because i have both variants installed 18:31:24 :P 18:31:44 Deewiant, good idea 18:32:05 ehird, "port: 32-bit mfpr missing: unable to run" 18:32:07 * AnMaster ducks 18:32:19 err 18:32:21 mpfr 18:32:32 well I hope that doesn't happen to you 18:32:42 oh and never ever mount proc on / by mistake 18:32:43 did that once 18:32:50 -!- olsner has joined. 18:32:59 what's wrong with that 18:33:01 managed to get out of it thanks to having a rescue binary in the same directory 18:33:03 as I was in 18:33:03 AnMaster: do you really think macports -- a tcl program -- uses mpfr, a multiple-precision floating-point computation library? 18:33:07 well, much is wrong, but what problems does it cause :-P 18:33:10 ehird, no I was joking 18:33:12 :P 18:33:19 Deewiant, /bin/ld.so not found 18:33:20 for exampl 18:33:30 no no dynamically linked binaries can run 18:33:33 so no* 18:33:45 oh right, so you lost your / 18:33:46 Deewiant, in other words: pretty bad 18:33:50 yes 18:33:51 I thought just proc superimposed on top of / 18:34:00 except I still had relative path 18:34:02 where I was 18:34:09 ---> Activating mpfr @2.3.2_0+darwin_i386+darwin_x86 18:34:11 and could find a rescue shell that way 18:34:12 That did not work 18:34:17 ehird, no idea 18:34:29 configure.log time 18:34:34 ehird, also what did config.log say? 18:34:40 18:34 configure.log time 18:34:41 err isn't the name config.log? 18:34:46 no 18:34:48 hm 18:34:50 it is here 18:34:56 arvid@tux /mnt/phoenix/llvm/llvm-gcc $ ls ../gcc-build 18:34:56 Makefile config.log i686-pc-linux-gnu libiberty prev-libcpp stage1-gcc stage1-libdecnumber stage_last 18:35:00 [...] 18:35:09 er 18:35:09 yes 18:35:10 its config.lo 18:35:12 g 18:35:14 XD 18:35:23 .lo? isn't that somehow related to libraries? 18:35:28 ld64 warning: in /opt/local/lib/libmpfr.dylib, file is not of required architecture 18:35:28 ld64 warning: in /opt/local/lib/libgmp.dylib, file is not of required architecture 18:35:33 Kill me 18:35:34 Kill me 18:35:35 Kill me 18:35:36 ah no .la 18:35:37 Kill me 18:35:39 Kill me 18:35:41 Kill me 18:35:43 Kill me 18:35:45 Kill me 18:35:46 * Mony kills ehird 18:35:47 Kill me 18:35:51 I don't know 18:35:52 :( 18:35:54 heh 18:35:54 thx Mony 18:35:55 ehird, well one idea 18:36:02 you're welcome 18:36:03 I could manually compile gmp and mpfr. 18:36:06 ehird, what about dropping the --build and CFLAGS I mentioned 18:36:08 I could also kill myeslf. 18:36:11 AnMaster: well, ok. 18:36:13 it would still be multilib 18:36:17 and hopefully work 18:36:26 ehird, I hope this works out for you 18:36:33 So do I, man :P 18:36:34 ehird, and don't forget the c only build thing 18:36:37 yes 18:36:50 g++ take AGES to build 18:37:01 at least only C and C++ are built by default iirc 18:37:06 so does gcc 18:37:07 :P 18:37:17 ehird, not really, not compared to g++ 18:37:24 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:37:29 oh 18:37:31 -!- moozilla has joined. 18:37:35 ya moozilla left 18:37:35 hm 18:37:35 fuck 18:37:38 *yay 18:37:44 he came back 18:37:53 i know 18:37:55 thus the fuck :D 18:39:31 gah too long channel list 18:39:37 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:39:43 I'm just scrolling between it's end 18:39:45 ends* 18:39:47 all the times 18:39:50 time* 18:39:51 gah 18:39:56 -!- moozilla has joined. 18:40:06 /bin/sh: line 1: build/genmodes: No such file or directory 18:40:06 make[3]: *** [s-modes-h] Error 127 18:40:07 make[3]: Leaving directory `/Users/ehird/gcc-build/gcc' 18:40:09 make[2]: *** [all-stage1-gcc] Error 2 18:40:11 make[2]: Leaving directory `/Users/ehird/gcc-build' 18:40:13 make[1]: *** [stage1-bubble] Error 2 18:40:15 make[1]: Leaving directory `/Users/ehird/gcc-build' 18:40:17 make: *** [all] Error 2 18:40:19 gdfgjdfkgjdkflgjkldfgjdfljgdfklgjdfgkldfjgkldfjg WHAT 18:40:21 build/genmodes -h > tmp-modes.h 18:40:23 was the failing thing 18:40:31 ah 18:40:34 maybe because 18:40:37 im in ~/gcc-build 18:40:42 and its in ~/gcc-blahblahblah/ 18:40:44 or something? 18:41:46 eh 18:41:48 18:41 OMNILOL 18:41:48 wtf 18:41:49 18:41 HAHAHAHA 18:41:49 18:41 o rite 18:41:57 ehird, where is that from? 18:42:01 #reddit 18:42:02 hm 18:42:06 metazilla != moozilla 18:42:11 but moozilla signs on as metazilla, sometimes 18:42:13 this is confusing 18:42:15 name clash XD 18:42:19 ehird, yes indeed 18:42:20 [different ISPs] 18:42:25 that must be why he keeps getting ghosted 18:42:35 ok 18:42:36 now 18:42:39 why did my build fail crazily 18:42:40 :D 18:42:53 where is the pristine copy of the GCC source? 18:43:00 and where is the clean build directory? 18:43:05 and what is the configure command line 18:43:16 answer those questions 18:43:17 [ehird:~/gcc-build] % ../gcc-4.3.2/configure --enable-languages=c --with-gmp=/opt/local --with-mpfr=/opt/local --with-multilib --prefix=$HOME/gcc43 18:43:19 All questions solved in one 18:43:23 ok 18:43:26 ehird: except it's the moozilla nick that is ghosted 18:43:33 oerjan: confusing 18:43:33 ehird, is ../gcc-4.3.2 really make distclean 18:43:33 ? 18:43:37 or is it just make clean 18:43:40 and most of the quit/joins are not ghostings 18:43:40 oh 18:43:42 make clean 18:43:45 * ehird makes distclean it 18:43:47 ehird, try make distclean 18:43:53 or just re-extract the tarball 18:44:05 also remove all files in the build dir after 18:44:11 including any hidden files 18:44:13 and rerun configure 18:44:19 yep 18:44:20 doing so 18:44:50 ehird, hm you have dual core right? 18:45:02 maybe I should use openmp 18:45:09 sadly I don't have any dual core to test that on 18:45:19 dual core, yes 18:45:21 gcc 4.3 supports openmp 18:45:32 with the right build time options I assume 18:45:33 for gcc 18:45:34 you can test on this box, but you'd have to deal with OS X oddities :-P 18:45:41 ehird, such as? 18:45:51 not having access to the box I'm testing on!? 18:45:53 well, i don't notice them but I imagine someone who uses linux every day would 18:45:54 anyway 18:46:00 AnMaster: that would be one thing :P 18:46:01 ehird, well right 18:46:08 I use linux and freebsd 18:46:10 every day 18:46:20 freebsd isn't too far off 18:46:26 true 18:46:43 but not having access and having to rely on you would be a serious issue 18:46:57 when I get a dual core system I may reconsider it 18:47:06 meanwhile I wish cfunge could make use of openmpi 18:47:07 Yeah I'm so unreliable :P 18:47:16 since I have a gigabit switch 18:47:21 still, if you do put in some openmp stuff I'm happy to give you ssh acess 18:47:36 ehird, well I need to build myself a gcc which supports it first 18:47:43 hm random speculation from the IWC forum: "At the end of this, the strips will be rearrangeable to form a valid PIET program." 18:47:51 also I seem to have outdated mpfr and gmp on this computer :D 18:47:57 no way I'm going ~arch 18:47:59 AnMaster: well, why not build it on my system? i mean, if you have to test on it... 18:48:15 well I'd rather not depend on your goodwill 18:48:39 depend on anyone in #esoteric with a dualcore system :-P 18:48:41 ehird, also I'm not sure openmp would help much, due to the way funge is specced there isn't much you can paralize 18:48:46 one thing is file loading 18:48:51 admittedly, profiling over ssh would be a pain 18:48:59 2 threads would probably help for mycology 18:49:03 when loading the file 18:49:15 but apart from that I don't think there are many places to gain in 18:49:51 ehird, yes especially since stuff like cachegrind or callgrind wouldn't work 18:49:55 both are very good for profiling 18:50:02 both are valgrind tools 18:50:13 hee, yes 18:50:20 this system can run linux you know 18:50:23 on OS X aren't you basically stuck with using gcc -pg? 18:50:27 but I don't think I'd boot into linux at your will :P 18:50:36 ehird, I didn't expect that 18:50:36 AnMaster: XCode probably has a profiler. 18:50:43 ehird, well xcode over ssh? 18:50:43 wait, can't you emulate a dual core system? 18:50:44 with qemu 18:50:45 does that work? 18:50:48 also, no :P 18:51:03 ehird, well I could probably emulate that. but profiling would show a slowdown then I bet 18:51:10 sure, profile without openmp 18:51:11 then with it 18:51:13 in the emulated system 18:51:31 well you wouldn't gain much since it would still have the same total computational resources 18:51:36 I think 18:51:44 true 18:51:54 isn't openmp really ugly? 18:52:09 ehird, it is one of the less ugly ways to add threading IMO 18:52:10 I mean 18:52:16 compare with phtreads call over all the app 18:52:17 to 18:52:28 #pragma omp parallel for 18:52:36 for (whatever ....) 18:52:57 to me openmp seems like the least bad alternative in fact 18:53:40 ehird, oh and cfunge is of course already coded so to make use of SSE where possible by allowing gcc vectorizer to convert loops to use SSE 18:53:41 however 18:53:49 gcc's vectorizer still suck 18:54:10 it has problems detecting if the overhead of setting up sse is larger than the benefit 18:54:20 basically you loose on it for few iterations and gain for many 18:54:28 I heard that would be fixed in gcc 4.4.... 18:54:30 AnMaster if I wrote a cfunge patch for trds would you accept it 18:54:30 :P 18:54:40 ehird, I would at least review it 18:54:49 ehird, also it must be possible to turn it off 18:54:49 it would avoid touching the rest of the code by doing run-time code modifiation on the rest of cfunge 18:54:50 >:D 18:54:54 since it would break ick otherwise 18:55:13 IFFI can't work with threads 18:55:27 which is one of several reasons concurrent funge is a compile time option 18:56:12 ehird, bbiab, going afk for a few minutes 18:56:29 oh and a multilib build will probably take longer than a non-multilib one 19:01:17 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:01:42 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:01:50 -!- moozilla has joined. 19:04:26 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:04:27 -!- metazilla has joined. 19:05:27 oh, metazilla IS the one from reddit. 19:07:08 um how can that be? 19:08:16 huh they've switched isps from last i checked 19:08:36 i guess they are the same after all, on two isps, but the same set of two nicks, conflicting... 19:13:10 18:42 i just found this http://alienate.on.nimp.org/profile 19:13:12 [DON'T CLICK] 19:13:23 yeah can we kick him for being an idiot in other channels? 19:14:16 metazilla, are you there? 19:16:14 he's talking in #reddit 19:16:15 and ignoring us 19:16:58 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:17:06 -!- metazilla has joined. 19:17:30 ehird, sure it is same person? 19:17:37 99% 19:17:43 err 19:17:50 their join/parts coincide 19:17:52 one is moozilla the other is metazilla 19:17:56 their join/parts coincide 19:17:58 they alternative? 19:18:01 alternate* 19:18:05 and they both enter #reddit 19:18:25 mhm 19:19:06 ehird, I have met this person on another network before, if he talks I can probably see if the style is familiar 19:19:18 he's talked in here before 19:19:23 in much the same way as in #reddit 19:19:27 he's obviously the same person :P 19:19:28 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:19:42 -!- metazilla has joined. 19:20:04 ehird, with different isps 19:20:14 sigh 19:20:15 both 19:20:16 switch 19:20:18 not just one 19:20:19 true 19:20:34 ehird, why not ask him directly? 19:20:51 i'd have to attempt to communicate with him. plus, he is obviously the same person 19:22:22 ehird, I'm on another network where he is, I'm oper there so I can know there is only one of him and he keeps reconnecting 19:22:31 and he uses the .dyn.centurytel.net one 19:22:33 only 19:22:38 nobody gives a shit AnMaster 19:22:41 he's the same person, end of 19:22:52 19:19 metazilla has joined (n=moozilla@207-118-28-35.dyn.centurytel.net) 19:22:53 see that n=? 19:22:59 yes and? 19:23:01 sigh 19:23:09 metazilla: are you moozilla of #reddit. 19:23:28 ehird, 1) it makes no sense to ignore one 2) it makes no sense to use totally different isps 19:23:50 1) ignore one? What? 2) proxies. different machines. maybe one's a shell. who knows 19:24:04 ehird, 1) ignore one client, the one in here 19:24:14 no, he ignores this channel 19:24:15 does he speak on both over in reddit? 19:24:18 because he's talking in reddit 19:24:20 AnMaster: yes 19:24:25 hm ok 19:24:36 ehird, as in *both isps? 19:24:39 both* 19:24:40 obviously the two isps have different channel settings 19:24:45 yes god damnit AnMaster 19:24:47 right 19:24:49 stop acting confused 19:24:51 he's the same person 19:24:54 i've told you this 5 times 19:24:59 who? 19:25:00 what? 19:25:04 only one is here, maybe it's only the other one he is present at 19:25:05 confused? what is that? 19:25:08 eh? 19:25:21 oerjan, ??? 19:25:44 AnMaster: maybe one is his home machine and he is not there, and that happens to be the one in this channel 19:26:16 i.e. he really doesn't see messages here 19:26:37 that would make sense 19:26:39 or to the centurytel.net 19:27:05 oerjan, but ehird just said he talked from both clients and isps on redit 19:27:12 i dont recall 19:27:13 jesus christ 19:27:15 i don't even care 19:27:22 this is the most tedious pointless conversation ever 19:27:24 ok both are same 19:27:24 sure 19:27:25 it's the same person 19:27:27 get over yourself :P 19:27:29 right whatever 19:27:31 anyway 19:27:36 gcc still compilin 19:27:36 g 19:27:40 right 19:27:43 was just about to ask that 19:29:42 yeah let's talk about _real_ frustrations instead :D 19:30:08 software sucks 19:30:37 ehird, how do you feel about FPGAs? 19:30:43 do they suck too? 19:30:55 everything sucks 19:30:55 19:30 grab your dick you fucking helmut 19:30:57 stunning intellect 19:31:06 found a flaw with oerjan's propositio 19:31:06 n 19:31:11 there is no way this guy is employed 19:32:37 British Gov't wants private firms to build $12b super database for tracking every citizen's Internet usage, phone call, text message, and other transactions --reddit 19:32:43 woop woop 19:32:52 uk<--->police state 19:32:53 uk<-->police state 19:32:57 uk<->police state 19:33:08 i didn't say the other was work, could be school 19:33:42 ehird, if you remove that last - it isn't so bad any more 19:33:48 heh 19:33:51 mathematical rope 19:33:55 at least not if <> is defined as in (iirc) perl 19:34:17 ehird, "mathematical rope"? 19:34:24 it turns into operators :P 19:34:28 aha 19:34:29 heh 19:34:34 the funny thing is, the uk is only not a total police state because our govt is too incompetent to implement its crazy schemes 19:34:36 also you went "heh" at something I said 19:34:39 this means 19:34:41 I HAVE HUMOR! 19:34:41 oh god 19:34:42 :P 19:34:42 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:34:43 world 19:34:45 ending 19:34:46 -!- metazilla has joined. 19:34:50 *CRASH* 19:34:57 *four white panels* 19:34:59 *GNNNNRGH* 19:35:01 *four fading in blue panels* 19:35:04 *BANG* 19:35:04 ... wait a second 19:35:07 where have I seen this before? 19:35:14 ehird, the explosion haven't ended yet 19:35:17 oh 19:35:19 you were too early 19:35:19 * ehird waits 19:35:23 something irregular is going on 19:35:30 what the UK needs is a bearocracy. 19:35:33 we just let bears run it 19:35:34 *CRASH* *BANG* *KABOOOM* 19:35:42 "mr bear, do you like this policy?" 19:35:42 there 19:35:45 now you can do it 19:35:48 "*MAUL* *RIP *CRUNCH*" 19:35:52 "OK, ok, we'll reject it" 19:35:55 AnMaster: k 19:35:58 *four white panels* 19:36:02 *four fading in blue panels* 19:36:05 where have I seen this before? 19:36:07 done 19:36:12 you forgot " ... wait a second" 19:36:17 too late now 19:36:20 bah. 19:36:25 time has been lost 19:36:43 oerjan, try Undelete for DOS ;P 19:36:51 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:37:01 everything is now pahpnenigt a hetmase mite 19:37:05 i used undelete onceuahsiuhiahi 19:37:09 oerjan: akhjkashdjkfhkjdg ndfkjgn 19:37:15 dsfj ids oa ofhi m, a ufua hiauh! askndaskd?? 19:37:17 jkahsdkjahdkJASHDklAJHSDJK!!! KAJHASD!! 19:37:24 sdfjsdfoijsdofijoijoi˝•¶¥¶̂̄†̂›†‹̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀NO CARRIER 19:37:37 INSERT PIGEON 19:37:40 (*&8•ª°·‡̄̄̄̄̄̄̄̄̄̄̄̄̄̄̄̄°·Y&*(YH9•ˍ(*̈ ̏•ª‡°‰Þ̂‡° ̏‡̂Þ¶ˆþ¶ˆþ¶ˆþˆ¶þ¯˙˝˜˚¯˛˝̛Ø̛̱̋̄̈ ̱̑ÐNO UNIVERSE 19:37:54 everything is now pahpnenigt a hetmase mite <--? 19:38:20 INSERT PIGEON INTO HOLE WHERE HOLE IS NULL? 19:38:22 : 19:38:23 :D* 19:38:38 hm 19:38:48 PLEASE SELECT FINE STRUCTURE CONSTANT FOR REBOOT > 19:38:52 Talk LIKE SQL day? 19:39:30 oerjan: hmmm 19:39:37 i'll go for... 19:39:42 +++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++ 19:39:58 oerjan: well a nice round number, how about 1 19:40:00 yeah, 1 19:40:02 1 19:40:10 ehird, bad one 19:40:12 iirc 19:40:18 naturally 19:40:18 UNIVERSE REBOOTING... 19:40:29 oerjan, what about other constants? 19:40:32 ((how long will this take...)) 19:40:44 ehird, not as long as compiling GCC 19:40:47 FORMING PUDDING 19:40:49 oerjan can I set pi? 19:40:58 if so I set pi to 3 (I am a religious man) 19:41:06 ehird, just hit the break key to enter the debugger 19:41:09 ah 19:41:10 and enter values 19:41:13 SORRY, PI IS IN THE BIOS ROM 19:41:19 damn 19:41:20 oerjan: oh okay. 19:41:23 how goes the reboot 19:41:25 can you redirect the mapping? 19:41:27 I mean 19:41:35 just remap in the MMU 19:41:40 so it use another PI 19:41:47 19:40 moozilla is now known as and_voidg2 19:41:47 19:40 now we can be null and void 19:41:48 19:41 for over 9000 lulz 19:41:48 first copy the original constant page of course 19:41:51 STARS COLLAPSING DUE TO LOW FSC 19:42:01 agh 19:42:02 ^C 19:42:04 let's try that again 19:42:11 # UNVRS 19:42:12 LIFE FORMING ON NEUTRON STARS 19:42:17 wait 19:42:20 this is interesting 19:42:22 hmm 19:42:22 okay 19:42:25 forget that ^C 19:42:30 indeed 19:42:32 i love sentient computer 19:42:32 s 19:42:39 ehird, it catches ^C anyway 19:42:44 INTELLIGENCE EVOLVED 19:42:44 how goes that life oerjan 19:42:46 ooh 19:42:52 ehird, you would have needed to use the reset key 19:42:52 can we communicate with it? 19:42:54 MANAGEMENT INVENTED 19:42:59 fuck 19:43:00 ARGH! 19:43:01 lost hope 19:43:04 ^C 19:43:09 ehird, doesn't work 19:43:12 oh right 19:43:13 use the reset button 19:43:14 UNIVERSE ABORTED 19:43:17 good 19:43:18 with a straighted out gem 19:43:20 # UNVRS 19:43:22 hm 19:43:26 let's try this again 19:43:40 hmm 19:43:41 # UNVRS 19:43:43 ehird, what about fine structure constant? NaN? 19:43:44 19:43:47 AnMaster: how about -1 19:43:58 ehird, wouldn't that be equally bad in the other direction? 19:44:02 but ok 19:44:04 try it 19:44:07 maybe it'll be equally good 19:44:11 oerjan: FINESTRUCTURE= -1 19:44:18 START 19:44:21 ehird, what about NaN if this doesn't work? 19:44:26 possibly 19:44:27 or 1/0 19:44:35 ehird, 1.0/0.0 19:44:41 oerjan: ping 19:44:43 or it would be integer division by zero 19:44:47 which would be BAD 19:45:01 i think I broke the oerjanputer 19:45:07 * ehird hits reset 19:45:08 ehird, reset it too? 19:45:14 OERJANPUTER VERSION 8645645615 19:45:16 BY OERJANCORP 19:45:21 ehird, reset it too? 19:45:22 >oerjan< CTCP VERSION 19:45:22 -oerjan- VERSION irssi v0.8.10 - running on Linux i686 19:45:22 OERJANPUTER VERSION 8645645615 19:45:23 wtf 19:45:24 "SERVING YOUR UNIVERSAL NEEDS SINCE INFINITY BC" 19:45:26 you scare me :P 19:45:28 HM 19:45:31 # 19:45:39 # UNVRS 19:45:47 * ehird waits for the universal simulation program to start up. 19:45:56 FINESTRUCTURE= -1 19:45:58 START 19:46:24 [gcc compiled yay] 19:46:27 * ehird kicks oerjan 19:46:51 THIS UNIVERSE IS CONSIDERABLY SLOWER, PLEASE HAVE PATIENCE 19:47:07 WHY IS IT SLOWER? 19:47:14 wait I just got an esolang idea 19:47:19 a language with "it" 19:47:23 ANTIMATTER GENERATED 19:47:30 where it made sense to refer to last object 19:47:32 or whatever 19:48:08 ANTIMOLECULES FORM 19:48:08 AnMaster: [ehird:~/cfunge/build] % PATH=~/gcc43/bin:$PATH DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH=~/gcc43/lib:$DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH LD_LIBRARY_PATH=~/gcc43/lib:$LD_LIBRARY_PATH ccmake .. 19:48:14 oerjan: awesome 19:48:16 ehird, I hope it works 19:48:22 um 19:48:23 it replies 19:48:25 "EMPTY CACHE" 19:48:32 ehird, well ok 19:48:33 hit c 19:48:35 ah 19:48:36 * ehird does configure 19:48:46 ehird, then check the values and change them as needed 19:48:49 and hit c again 19:48:51 and finally g 19:49:05 AnMaster: ok, what cflags again? 19:49:12 ... 19:49:15 <.< 19:49:32 ehird, I recommend CFLAGS="-march=core2 -pipe -O3 -ftracer -frename-register -fweb" for you 19:49:41 VACUUM BUBBLES FORM IN ANTIMATTER SOUP 19:49:44 and while we are at it 19:49:45 oerjan: awesome 19:49:46 jan 07 15:58:08 #include 19:49:46 jan 07 15:58:36 int main(void) { printf("%zu\n", sizeof(char*)); return 0; } 19:49:46 ehird, anyway check if it can compile hello world with those flags 19:50:10 oerjan, what about life? 19:50:16 [ehird:~] % ~/gcc43/bin/gcc -m64 -march=core2 64bit.c 19:50:16 [ehird:~] % ./a.out 19:50:17 8 19:50:18 anti-life? 19:50:19 great success 19:50:26 ehird, yay 19:50:29 ENABLE_TRACE *ON 19:50:32 should be off presumably 19:50:39 ehird, well yes it means -t doesn't work 19:50:42 ANTIPOLYMERS FORM IN BUBBLE BOUNDARIES 19:50:43 -t? 19:50:50 oerjan: i like this. 19:50:52 ehird, output trace of the running program 19:50:58 AnMaster: slows down presumably 19:51:09 ehird, not noticable in my tests 19:51:19 but sure you reduce one if test every now and then 19:51:24 you could maybe gain a bit 19:51:42 ill leave it on 19:51:45 STAR-SIZED BUBBLE ANTI-CELLS FORM 19:52:02 oerjan, wow 19:52:07 HARDENED *OFF 19:52:07 ? 19:52:09 oerjan: awesome 19:52:43 ehird, have it off 19:52:44 ANTI-CELLS REPRODUCE 19:52:48 it adds -fstack-protector 19:53:05 oerjan: hot 19:53:08 which would be 1) tricky to build for you 2) possibly slow down a bit 19:53:19 ok that worked 19:53:22 agh 19:53:23 i forgot the m64 19:53:29 ehird, just add to cflags 19:53:33 you can run ccmake . 19:53:35 to add it 19:53:45 set PATH of course 19:53:47 if needed 19:53:51 it probably isn't 19:53:58 % PATH=~/gcc43/bin:$PATH DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH=~/gcc43/lib:$DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH LD_LIBRARY_PATH=~/gcc43/lib:$LD_LIBRARY_PATH make 19:53:59 GO 19:54:07 [ 1%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/lib/libghthash/cfunge_mempool.c.o 19:54:07 cc1: error: unrecognized command line option "-arch" 19:54:08 cc1: error: unrecognized command line option "-frename-register" 19:54:10 make[2]: *** [CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/lib/libghthash/cfunge_mempool.c.o] Error 1 19:54:12 You're... 19:54:15 you're fucking kidding me 19:54:23 COMPETITION CAUSE ANTI-CELLS TO EVOLVE RUDIMENTARY NERVE GRAPH 19:54:40 AnMaster: how can I make cmake output what command line it uses 19:55:15 oerjan: I like this 19:55:20 hm 19:55:31 ehird, hit t to show advance entries 19:55:34 there is something like 19:55:42 CMAKE_VERBOSE_MAKEFILE 19:55:43 turn it on 19:55:44 hit c 19:55:45 hit g 19:55:53 I don't remember the exact name of the option 19:56:08 ANTI-CELLS EVOLVE, SHRINK TO PLANET SIZE TO THINK FASTER 19:56:19 AnMaster: http://pastie.org/private/jlmebg2apnzyxgij7hobw 19:56:26 there's no way I'm debugging that, you have a look :P 19:56:39 -arch x86_64 19:56:40 aha 19:56:53 ehird, it must be that OSX_ARCH thing 19:56:56 I believe 19:56:59 prolly 19:57:05 * ehird re"moo"ves it 19:57:10 moo? 19:57:10 GALACTIC SIZE ANTI-CELL SOCIETY FORMS 19:57:10 what? 19:57:15 dunno 19:57:17 oerjan, wow 19:57:19 oerjan: :DD 19:57:21 TAXES INVENTED 19:57:22 i fear what comes next 19:57:23 AAAAAAAAAAAGH 19:57:29 * AnMaster pushes reset 19:57:29 speak of the devil 19:57:31 ^C^C^C 19:57:39 SOCIALIST REVOLUTION 19:58:05 wait 19:58:05 what 19:58:05 this is good 19:58:05 oerjan, continue 19:58:05 AnMaster: it is building now 19:58:05 FASCIST COUNTERREVOLUTION 19:58:09 argh 19:58:11 dammit 19:58:14 let see if it turns better 19:58:15 again 19:58:23 ehird, wait a few lines before reset 19:58:36 AnMaster: you have a lot of "q printf length modifier" warning s:P 19:58:37 but 19:58:38 GAMMA BURST WAR KILLS 99% OF POPULATION 19:58:40 Linking C executable cfunge 19:58:40 [100%] Built target cfunge 19:58:44 oerjan: Awesome 19:58:44 ehird, that is due to OS X header issues 19:58:49 -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird ehird 182K 2009-01-07 19:58 cfunge 19:58:56 ehird, cool 19:59:17 [100%] Built target cfunge 19:59:17 Install the project... 19:59:18 -- Install configuration: "Release" 19:59:20 ehird, apple headers use %q in inttypes.h to define the int64 printf 19:59:20 -- Installing: /usr/local/bin/cfunge 19:59:22 -- Installing: /usr/local/share/man/man1/cfunge.1 19:59:24 ehird, install not needed 19:59:28 as I said 19:59:30 ok, where's mycology 19:59:31 CAPITALISM INVENTED, RIDICULED 19:59:35 ridiculed 19:59:36 ha 19:59:39 ehird, at Deewiant's website 19:59:42 bah 19:59:43 k 19:59:59 [ehird:~/cfunge/examples] % cfunge hello.bf 19:59:59 Hello world! 20:00:08 ehird, well that should indeed work 20:00:10 I was hoping to see "segmentation fault" 20:00:12 Yes quite. 20:00:16 Deewiant: lol 20:00:21 ehird, what I'm not sure is mycoterm 20:00:24 it may have issues 20:00:32 I would be very interested in someone checking that on OS X 20:00:48 FORCED EUGENICS BREED OUT AGRESSION, WARS END, BUT SO DOES FREEDOM 20:00:50 it works on linux and freebsd but I don't know how portable my hacks to make both it and TERM work are 20:00:54 sanity.bf first right 20:00:59 ehird, sure 20:01:02 and mycology.b98 20:01:07 then mycouser.b98 20:01:13 finally mycoterm.b98 20:01:15 sanity.bf works 20:01:19 ehird, expected 20:01:23 don't forget mycotrds!!!!11one 20:01:39 brb phone 20:01:40 AnMaster: mycology works 20:02:30 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 20:02:53 mycoterm time 20:02:54 ALIEN ANTI-POLYHEDRAL SPECIES ENCOUNTERED, RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS 20:03:17 Trying to clear the first line with HL, press enter to continue... 20:03:17 NCRS loaded. 20:03:19 , might not work after I: using S instead, so if R and S don't work, nothing will be seen. 20:03:21 Calling 1I, press enter to continue... 20:03:23 that looks odd 20:03:25 is it correct? 20:03:39 Testing S... 20:03:39 S didn't reflect, continuing... 20:03:52 ok 20:03:54 mycoterm worked 20:03:54 I think 20:04:06 now I'm brbing 20:06:10 EXPANSION OF SPACE CAUSES EMPTY REGIONS TO FORM, ENERGY SHORTAGE 20:07:20 HYPERSPACE TRAVEL NOW POSSIBLE. RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS CONQUER KNOWN UNIVERSE. 20:07:43 back 20:07:53 ehird, great! 20:07:58 ehird, when you get back: 20:08:15 time cfunge mycology.b98 >/dev/null 2>&1 20:08:21 run it twice or so 20:08:28 to avoid disk cache slowdown 20:08:29 and such 20:08:46 oerjan, wow 20:08:49 oerjan, and then? 20:09:28 ANTI-CELLS SHRINK TO SAVE ENERGY, REACH MOUNTAIN SIZE. APOCALYPTIC THEOCRACY. 20:10:06 oerjan, damn 20:10:30 WIDESPREAD REBELLION AGAINST DEFAITIST RELIGION. NUCLEAR WARS. 20:10:40 err 20:10:51 NUCLEAR? don't you mean ANTI-NUCLEAR? 20:10:57 ER, YES 20:11:31 right 20:11:57 SURVIVORS CREATE GOLDEN DEMOCRATIC AGE, THUS IRONICALLY FULFILLING A PROPHECY 20:12:06 what PROPHECY? 20:13:01 UNFORTUNATELY THAT PROPHECY WAS ABOUT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN _AFTER_ UNIVERSE DIES. RELIGIOUS DEFAITISM REPLACED BY SCIENTIFIC DEFAITISM. 20:13:22 DEFAITISM? 20:13:25 wtf is that 20:13:31 aspell doesn't like it 20:13:37 CHECKING... 20:13:37 nor does google 20:14:19 DEFEATISM 20:14:26 means? 20:14:43 ah 20:14:44 right 20:14:48 found a definition 20:15:01 oerjan, ok bad 20:15:06 oerjan, what happens next? 20:15:10 anything good? 20:15:30 POPULATION SLOWLY DECREASES WHILE UNIVERSE EXPANDS AND COOLS 20:15:35 ok 20:15:39 no more interesting 20:15:43 oerjan, reset universe 20:15:48 RESET UNIVERSE 20:15:50 * AnMaster resets it 20:16:05 *BURP* 20:16:31 # UNVRS 20:16:44 FINESTRUCTURE= 0 20:16:47 START 20:16:50 * AnMaster waits 20:17:05 NO ELECTROMAGNETIC FORCE 20:17:17 oerjan, is there something else instead? 20:17:21 or is everything static? 20:18:00 UNIVERSE FILLED WITH BLACK HOLES 20:18:05 oops 20:18:12 oerjan, life on black holes? 20:18:52 UNIVERSE COLLAPSES 20:19:06 oerjan, reset 20:19:11 # UNVRS 20:19:17 FINESTRUCTURE= NaN 20:19:19 START 20:19:53 WEIRD PARTICLES ARISE 20:20:22 INSANE OSCILLATIONS IN PHOTON DYNAMICS 20:20:23 oerjan, then? 20:20:30 wow cool 20:20:47 oerjan, tell me more 20:20:59 go on! 20:21:01 _SOMETHING_ ARISES. IS IT INTELLIGENT? WHO KNOWS: BUT IT CERTAINLY HAS TENTACLES. 20:21:08 argh 20:21:20 oerjan, don't mention it's name! 20:21:34 SPAWNS UNCOUNTABLE OFFSPRING 20:21:39 oerjan, RESET 20:21:41 RESET! 20:21:55 REJECTS CONCEPT OF DEATH 20:22:02 ARGH! 20:22:12 * AnMaster resets the oerjanputer 20:22:26 * AnMaster reinstalls from system disks 20:22:37 # SELF-TEST 20:22:38 HUMANS ATTEMPT TO KILL US. MUST EXTERMINATE HUMANS. 20:22:46 * AnMaster pulls the plug 20:23:27 * AnMaster checks on the oerjanputer 20:23:52 THE STARS ARE NOT RIGHT FOR US TO LIVE. WILL SLEEP UNTIL BETTER TIMES COME. 20:23:57 ah 20:24:12 * AnMaster resets the CMOS RAM 20:24:14 SHOULD TAKE ABOUT ... 3 YEARS. 20:24:35 oerjan, I reset your CMOS RAM 20:24:41 feeling better? 20:24:48 wiped disk too and reinstalled 20:25:26 * AnMaster carefully boots the oerjanputer with UNVRS not yet installed 20:25:26 well except something in the walls seems to be chuckling evilly. i guess that's just imagination. 20:25:31 # SELF-TEST 20:25:41 # VIRUS-SCAN 20:25:59 # REMOVE_OLD_ONES 20:26:08 NO OLD ONES FOUND 20:26:33 EVERYTHING SEEMS PERFECTLY FNIE 20:26:36 # SECURELEVEL=3 20:26:39 FNIE? 20:26:41 no it isn't 20:26:49 SORRY, I MNEAT FINE 20:26:57 MNEAT? 20:27:06 no I don't believe you 20:27:08 MM? 20:27:13 * AnMaster shuts oerjan don't 20:27:17 * AnMaster replaces components 20:27:30 there all replaced even the chassi 20:27:48 spelling... 20:27:49 anyway 20:28:02 * AnMaster boots oerjanputer and reinstalls the OS from a clean isntall media 20:28:14 * AnMaster reboots from new shiny disk 20:28:18 # SELF-TEST 20:28:28 why is there a note on my desk - "Dear emergency ration, gone to vacation in the pacific ocean. cheers, the old guy." 20:28:43 wtf 20:28:49 I don't understand that 20:29:03 * AnMaster installs UNVRS 20:29:12 # UNVRS 20:29:29 "P.S. you think a being beyond mathematics cannot download from a computer?" 20:29:55 FINESTRUCTURE= 1/137.03599907098 20:30:16 START 20:30:19 oerjan, well 20:30:31 INFLATION 20:30:49 oerjan, you should have used a sandboxed UNVRS 20:30:55 oerjan, then what? 20:30:56 but i did 20:30:57 back 20:30:58 unzip? 20:31:13 ehird, seems fine structure = NaN created the old ones 20:31:14 :( 20:31:49 oerjan, anyway what happens after inflation? 20:32:46 * AnMaster pokes oerjan 20:32:48 BARYOGENESIS 20:32:57 ok 20:33:14 oerjan, what are the quarks made of? 20:33:18 if they exist yet 20:33:38 is the string theory correct? 20:33:48 AnMaster: what time line do you want me to run again 20:33:59 ehird, hm? 20:34:02 ACTUALLY THEY ARE MADE OF FLUTES 20:34:05 ehird, I'm running one 20:34:05 AnMaster: cfunge 20:34:10 PHOTON EPOCH 20:34:12 ehird, oh right 20:34:21 time cfunge mycology.b98 >/dev/null 2>&1 20:34:23 AnMaster: you know, management is going to be invented 20:34:26 with real-world parameters 20:34:37 ehird, yes but it was worse on the alternatives 20:34:48 hm 20:34:53 what about same value but -? 20:35:01 it'll just be anti-everyhing 20:35:02 ehird, could that be worth trying? 20:35:05 oerjan: reset 20:35:07 # UNVRS 20:35:12 ehird, don't use NaN 20:35:14 *BURP* 20:35:16 FINESTRUCTURE= infinity 20:35:17 it created the great old ones 20:35:18 START 20:35:20 wow 20:35:24 what the heck will that do 20:35:30 why do you think i'm trying 20:35:32 ehird, also what did time report 20:35:55 ehird, wait if it is anti-everything there will be anti-management 20:35:58 ha 20:36:06 ehird, won't that be good? 20:36:07 wait how do you run a command N times in bash 20:36:09 UNIVERSE FILLED WITH PLASMA 20:36:14 plasma cool 20:36:16 ehird, hm? 20:36:23 AnMaster: like from i in 1..10 20:36:40 ehird, for i in ${1..10}; do ... ; done 20:36:40 GRAVITY OVERWHELMED BY ELECTROMAGNETISM 20:36:41 or 20:36:52 oerjan: awesome 20:36:54 I hate gravity 20:37:02 ehird, for ((i=1; i<10; i++)); do ... ; done 20:37:04 that works too 20:37:26 % for i in ${1..30}; do (time cfunge mycology.b98 >/dev/null 2>&1) >>times; done 20:37:27 will that be OK? 20:37:33 ehird, sure I guess 20:37:37 you can take averages 20:37:40 zsh: bad substitution 20:37:41 of all except first 20:37:43 when I said bash I meant zsh 20:37:46 ehird, you asked for bash 20:37:48 not zsh 20:37:48 :D 20:37:50 * ehird does it in bash 20:37:51 and zsh I don't know 20:37:55 MATTER CONSTANTLY GENERATED 20:37:58 bash: ${1..30}: bad substitution 20:37:59 phail 20:38:03 oerjan: awesome 20:38:03 ehird, err what 20:38:17 ehird, sorry 20:38:19 tired 20:38:19 * ehird bets the next thing to happen in infinite-fine-structure universe is the invention of management or something 20:38:21 remove the $ 20:38:21 so 20:38:27 % for i in {1..30}; do (time cfunge mycology.b98 >/dev/null 2>&1) >>times; done 20:38:35 UNIVERSE CRYSTALIZES INTO SOLID 20:39:03 oerjan, what is this huge crystal made of? 20:39:11 AnMaster: kay, made several runes of that for 120 runs total 20:39:11 MOSTLY DIAMOND 20:39:12 runs 20:39:15 messed it up 20:39:17 will do one big run 20:39:22 ehird, hm 20:39:39 oerjan: then taxes are invented? 20:39:45 no 20:39:50 management for positive 20:39:55 taxes for negative I thinj 20:39:58 think* 20:40:15 AnMaster: ok im going to run it 100 times 20:40:19 note that i have other stuff running 20:40:21 so it won't be perfect 20:40:24 ehird, well ok 20:40:32 like 10% of cpu used, so. 20:40:51 ehird, I generally stop X before running speed tests 20:41:01 MICRO-MANAGEMENT INVENTED 20:41:06 oerjan: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 20:41:09 micro-management? 20:41:12 wtf is tha? 20:41:14 TURNS OUT HARMLESS, AS MICROSTRUCTURES ARE NONSENTIENT 20:41:26 phew 20:41:51 AnMaster: average is 0.62 http://pastie.org/354977.txt?key=inzzwzudzj4u82liaeozw 20:41:54 MICROSTRUCTURES USE MICROMANAGEMENT TO COMBINE INTO LARGER STRUCTURES 20:41:56 ehird, interesting 20:41:56 fluctuates due to computer being busy in parts :P 20:41:57 err 20:41:59 0.062 20:42:00 sorry 20:42:02 :P 20:42:13 ehird, what is the speed per core? 20:42:21 also are you using dynamic cpu speed? 20:42:23 AnMaster: 2.1ghz or so 20:42:25 also, dunno 20:42:29 STUPIDITY INVENTED. MUCH CARNAGE. 20:42:33 ram = 2.5gb fwiw 20:42:35 oerjan: :D 20:42:43 AnMaster: but stuff is running 20:42:44 so 20:42:50 ehird, L1 and L2 cache? 20:43:04 Uhh, second 20:43:07 * ehird checks 20:43:07 cfunge mycology.b98 > /dev/null 2>&1 0.03s user 0.03s system 92% cpu 0.062 total 20:43:09 wait what 20:43:12 ATTEMPT TO INVENT TAXES CAUSES REBELLION AGAINST STUPID LEADERS 20:43:13 that doesn't add up 20:43:15 AnMaster: what 20:43:15 at all 20:43:20 why not 20:43:29 0.03s user 0.03s != 0.062 total 20:43:32 or anything near 20:43:38 what should it be 20:43:40 usually they are about half of total each here 20:43:51 also, 3+3=6... 20:43:52 ehird, ok so what is the rest that isn't user or system? 20:43:55 Er, 0.03 + 0.03 = 0.06; that's pretty close. 20:44:03 ah right 20:44:04 true 20:44:09 0.002 extra :P 20:44:12 well 20:44:15 I read it as 0.003 20:44:16 :P 20:44:18 ha 20:44:24 what speeds do you get AnMaster 20:44:56 ehird, with vmware running in background around 0.061 second, when X isn't running sometimes down to 0.035 20:45:03 64-bit Sempron 3300+ 20:45:07 which runs at 2 GHz 20:45:15 128 kb L1 20:45:16 ok, so basically the same with gui running etc 20:45:17 except 20:45:19 mine's a bit faster 20:45:26 since, os x is way more bloated on the memory & cpu 20:45:27 :P 20:45:27 err 20:45:30 yeah 20:45:31 it is 20:45:35 ANARCHIC GOVERNMENT FORMS BASED ON TEN COMMANDMENTS. THESE INCLUDE 1. THOU SHALT NOT LEVY TAXES 5. THOU SHALT NOT MANAGE. 20:45:44 oerjan: that sounds like management to me :P 20:45:47 great 20:45:52 fungot: Are you still alive? Haven't seen you talk in a while. 20:45:52 fizzie: " another back of the book, when he knows what he did to get on the cases of others to make yourself feel better. why not? small—the preceding wikipedia:sign your posts on talk pagesunsigned comment was added by special:contributions/ fnord ( user fnord) 20:45:53 oerjan, what are the 8 other ones? 20:45:56 wait... 20:45:57 ANARCHIC GOVERNMENT? 20:46:00 something is up :P 20:46:07 ehird, no that doesn't make sense 20:46:09 exactly 20:46:10 3. THOU SHALT NOT ASK TOO MANY QUESTIONS. 20:46:10 :D 20:46:27 * ehird starts system profiler 20:46:32 oerjan, aha, oppresses freedom of questioning 20:46:34 THE WORD "GOVERNMENT" IS USED IN A LOOSE SENSE HERE 20:46:35 AnMaster: L2 cache = 4mb 20:46:40 ehird, wow 20:46:42 what 20:46:43 much better than mine 20:46:46 heh 20:47:01 baisc overview: 20:47:13 ehird, and the remaining 7? 20:47:16 intel core 2 duo, 2.16 ghz, 2 cores, 4MB L2, 2.5 GB, and bus speed 667 MHz 20:47:21 err 20:47:22 the busses in this country, they are electric. 20:47:22 oerjan, ^ 20:47:32 AnMaster: he was implying your question was too much 20:47:35 ah 20:47:37 ok 20:47:40 that was... the joke :P 20:47:42 oerjan, what happens next? 20:47:52 AnMaster: gonna run some more programs with cfunge 20:47:58 ehird, nice 20:48:04 ehird, there is a game of life 20:48:06 in examples 20:48:11 it should be very fast 20:48:27 ehird, I don't know if jitfunge works on os x 20:48:42 but if it doesn't you see the good thing with portable software I hope :D 20:48:44 * AnMaster runs 20:49:06 I'd hardly expect a jit to be portable :P 20:49:14 nor would I 20:49:20 life is nice and fast, yep 20:49:32 too fast :P 20:49:33 CRYSTAL PHILOSOPHERS MANAGE TO REDUCE NUMBER OF COMMANDMENTS TO 4. (NO. 3 WAS ONE OF THOSE TO GO.) GOLDEN AGE OF ENLIGHTENMENT. 20:49:35 ehird, try it with ccbi or rc/funge if you want 20:49:37 can you tell cfunge to delay? 20:49:42 jitfunge doesn't, at the moment; although it might with some tweaking. 20:49:45 ehird, alas no such feature have been added 20:49:47 oerjan: :D 20:49:57 My only OS X box is a powerpc, so I can't really port it with it. 20:50:06 AnMaster: just deoptimize a bit :P 20:50:10 oerjan, what are the ones left now? 20:50:25 We did some speed-benchmarking with something like (build/jitfunge life.bf > life.txt &); sleep 20 ; killall jitfunge ; ls -l life.txt and then comparing the life.txt output size. Silly but... silly. 20:50:27 ehird, ok that is easy 20:50:36 src/funge-space/funge-space.c 20:50:42 look for size constants near the start 20:50:45 hehe 20:50:47 defines size of static array 20:50:56 ehird, change those as needed to get the right speed 20:51:01 the concurrent hellos worl 20:51:01 life is befunge93 20:51:03 work 20:51:04 Said static array is conveniently just barely big enough to hold mycology :-P 20:51:18 Deewiant, yes it is the largest program I know 20:51:18 % time cfunge pi2.bf >/dev/null 20:51:18 cfunge pi2.bf > /dev/null 0.22s user 0.01s system 99% cpu 0.233 total 20:51:24 That's quite slow 20:51:34 ehird, ccbi is even slower iirc 20:51:38 also it is befunge93 20:51:46 it doesn't use fpdp 20:51:47 or such 20:51:55 Ok 20:52:17 ehird, note some of the *.bf ones may need -s 93 20:52:18 4. THOU SHALT NOT ATTEMPT TO GET POWER OVER OTHERS, UNDER PENALTY OF DEATH. (THIS IS THE ONLY CRIME WITH PUNISHMENT MORE THAN A FINE.) 20:52:37 oerjan: how is the penalty assigned? 20:52:38 ehird, to use the befunge93 space in string rules 20:52:41 Doesn't that involve getting power over others? 20:52:57 VERY CAREFULLY. 20:53:00 :D 20:53:08 Deewiant, sometimes fungot is is outside the area when running underload programs but since fitting all that in would require the array to be 128 MB in RAM on 32-bit builds... 20:53:08 AnMaster: somehow, one or both of the culture of europe/ fnord 17:43, 7 may 2008 ( utc 20:53:27 Deewiant, apart from that mycology is largest yes 20:54:15 oerjan, what is the physical composition of the world? 20:54:25 you talked about crystal 20:54:29 but made of what? 20:54:35 AnMaster: the fine structure constant is infinity, I don't think he can answer that reasonably :P 20:54:56 ehird, hm maybe not 20:55:06 oerjan, what happens next? 20:55:31 MOSTLY DIAMOND, I SAID 20:55:33 By the way, is it possible to write a fingerprint and license it under non-gpl3? 20:55:36 oh right 20:55:37 sorry 20:55:39 I mean, it'll be linked with cfunge... 20:55:54 ehird, tricky question, I allowed that for IFFI iirc 20:55:58 however I have an idea 20:56:00 somewhat like kernel 20:56:06 marking some interfaces 20:56:06 like 20:56:21 "as a special exception you are allowed to use these routines in non-gpled fingerprints" 20:56:22 or such 20:56:30 ehird, I might add that in next version 20:56:34 however right now: nop 20:56:40 Damn. 20:56:54 ehird, but it is a good idea to add linking exception 20:56:57 to a well defined interface 20:57:05 What if I want to use dark internals? :-P 20:57:17 ehird, then you are out of luck, same as for kernel 20:57:18 GAME OF TETRIS INVENTED. GOLDEN AGE OF ENLIGHTENMENT GIVES WAY TO GOLDEN AGE OF PROCRASTINATION. ECONOMY COLLAPSES BUT FEW CARE. 20:57:28 ouch 20:57:40 and tetris is boring too 20:57:42 oerjan: awesome 20:58:03 AnMaster: is not 20:58:05 tetris is great 20:58:12 ehird, snake is better 20:58:14 IMO 20:58:17 ELITE PROGRAMMERS RULE THE WORLD, WHILE CAREFUL NOT TO LET ANYONE NOTICE. 20:58:26 oerjan, not too good 20:58:26 oerjan: can the next event be a war between tetris and snake lovers? 20:58:31 no 20:58:35 the tetris lovers should win, by the way. 20:58:37 also nethack is better than both 20:58:56 I dunno, I like the simplicity of tetris. 20:59:09 FIRST PERSON SHOOTERS INVENTED. 20:59:26 oerjan, do these run on computers? 20:59:34 ehird, I prefer games with a goal and ending 20:59:44 snake lacks it too 20:59:45 yes 20:59:54 Tetris: Goal, clear all lines. Ending, sure, when you get to the last level. 21:00:05 ehird, there is no last level usually 21:00:15 it just goes on with higher and higher 21:00:18 in those I played 21:00:26 In tetris? I think the official versions have a last level. 21:00:32 huh 21:00:38 ö 21:00:39 ehird, what about LEMMINGS?! 21:00:41 o 21:00:46 AnMaster: you got me there 21:00:48 lemmings is amazing/ 21:00:51 oerjan, what happens next? 21:01:02 THEORY OF VIOLENT GAMES CAUSING VIOLENCE CONFIRMED. 21:01:06 ha 21:01:18 VIOLENCEINVENTED? 21:01:19 er 21:01:19 hm 21:01:21 with a space 21:01:27 tetris does not have a last level, implementations may, but pure mathematical tetris does not have an ending 21:01:31 ATTEMPT TO BAN VIOLENT GAMES CAUSES VIOLENT REVOLUTION. 21:01:34 oklofok, indeed 21:01:34 pure mathematical tetris. 21:01:38 yes 21:01:54 ehird, yes of course 21:02:10 schools should teach tetris theorems 21:02:11 oerjan, then what? 21:02:17 ehird, hah 21:02:31 ehird, theoretically only of course 21:02:34 yes 21:02:42 ehird, no actual playing 21:02:53 The original Game Boy Tetris (I mean "original Game Boy", not original Tetris) has a "last level" in the sense that it stops getting any faster, but you can still keep playing. The score-meter maxes out at some point, though. 21:03:02 actually playing tetris is punished 21:03:16 ehird, hah 21:03:18 fizzie: the original tetris was the game boy tetris i think 21:03:23 yes 21:03:25 i think so too 21:03:35 oerjan, what happens next!? 21:03:40 Er, no. 21:03:40 REALISTIC VIRTUAL REALITY INVENTED, REDUCING REAL VIOLENCE AGAIN 21:03:44 "originally designed and programmed by Alexey Pajitnov in June 1985, while working for the Dorodnicyn Computing Centre of the Academy of Science of the USSR in Moscow." 21:03:47 oerjan, haha 21:03:47 well, okay fizzie 21:03:50 oerjan, great 21:03:51 but it was the first mass-commercial one 21:03:52 The Game Boy version comes in 1989 or so. 21:03:52 i think 21:03:54 oerjan: :DD 21:03:56 fizzie: wp isn't always right 21:03:58 oerjan, what then? 21:04:12 oklofok: Still, I've seen at least one documentary about the game. 21:04:24 oklofok: That's an Independent Source! 21:04:27 fizzie: documentaries aren't always right, ehird is, iirc 21:04:38 oklofok: I don't think you recall correctly. 21:04:42 oh. 21:04:58 then i guess you might be somewhat right. 21:05:11 oklofok: [2008-05-08 19:41:00] < ehird> my previous one was wrong 21:05:13 oklofok: See. 21:05:16 MASS MIND UPLOADING HAPPENS, 90% OF POPULATION NOW COMPUTER PROGRAMS 21:05:22 happy new year!!! 21:05:24 oerjan: kickass 21:05:26 oerjan, that sucks 21:05:27 lament: slightly late 21:05:29 lament, lag? 21:05:30 i did play tetris long before gameboys were invented, but, well, you know, might've been like chess in disguise or something. 21:05:32 AnMaster: no it doesn't 21:05:32 it's AWESOME 21:05:59 AnMaster: bug report, "Befunge93/98/08" in header. 21:06:00 copyright 21:06:11 ehird, hm? 21:06:15 it's 108 21:06:20 ehird, typo indeed 21:06:39 POPULAR VIRTUAL REALITY REGION CREATED BASED ON HYPOTHETICAL FSC OF 1/137.036 21:06:41 IMPORTANCE: MEDIUM 21:06:53 TYPE: TYPO CORRECTION 21:06:58 ehird, also it is 109 by now 21:06:58 AnMaster: PRIORITY: CRITICAL 21:07:03 also, it's unneeded :P 21:07:07 PRIORITY: LOW 21:07:13 oerjan: awwwwwwwwww 21:07:16 oerjan: wait 21:07:22 oerjan: is this going to be recursive? 21:07:23 :x 21:07:26 NO 21:07:28 ouch 21:07:31 YES YES YES 21:07:34 IT WAS NOT _THAT_ POPULAR 21:07:45 oh, okay. 21:07:50 so um 21:07:54 this is getting slightly boring :D 21:08:01 ehird, hm 21:08:13 FSC=10^aleph-0? 21:08:28 oerjan: reset 21:08:33 well 21:08:34 save state 21:08:35 then reset 21:08:37 for later 21:08:41 yes indeed 21:08:45 this was a good one 21:08:48 ehird, so what now? 21:08:55 I already tried 0 21:08:59 i have an idea. 21:09:05 # UNVRS 21:09:07 was just black holes then collapse 21:09:13 FINESTRUCTURE= BUILT_IN_PI 21:09:15 PI= 3 21:09:16 START 21:09:25 (so FINESTRUCTURE is 3.14(etc), and PI is 3) 21:09:31 ehird, interesting 21:09:35 what about e? 21:10:07 ehird, I think we will get triangular wheels... 21:10:22 SIMULTANEOUSLY ROUND AND CUBICAL PLANET FORMED 21:10:31 wow 21:10:31 oerjan: wait wait 21:10:33 that's a bit fast 21:10:37 oerjan, yes indeed 21:10:38 what about the forming due to the fine structure? :D 21:10:39 too faster 21:10:44 yes 21:10:45 indeed 21:10:49 ^CREWIND;RESUME 21:10:51 REWINDING... 21:11:06 ehird, err isn't it ^G? 21:11:13 AnMaster: sentient computer. 21:11:15 you can basically do whatever. 21:11:16 ah 21:11:21 GRAVITATIONAL ORBITS UNSTABLE 21:11:27 neato 21:11:31 nice 21:11:33 SIMULTANEOUSLY ROUND AND CUBICAL PLANET FORMED? :P 21:11:40 nah 21:11:50 SIMULTANEOUSLY CUBICAL AND ROUND PLANET FORMED? :P 21:11:50 I bet 21:12:16 SIMULTANEOUSLY CUBICAL AND CUBICAL PLANET FORMED? :P 21:12:34 SIMULTANEOUSLY ROUND AND HEXAGONAL SPIRAL GALAXY FORMED 21:12:39 Whoa. 21:12:39 ah 21:12:42 My brain. 21:12:54 ehird, nah that is easy to think about 21:13:13 it's round, hexagonal and spiral 21:13:15 at the same time. 21:13:25 a programmer was asked, what sexual positions does he know. 21:13:35 he thought for a while. 21:13:38 and said. 21:13:57 said what? 21:14:07 said. 21:14:13 oh haha 21:14:14 itym: 21:14:14 1. he above, she underneath 21:14:15 said "". 21:14:19 2. she above, he underneath. 21:14:19 o 21:14:24 3. both above. 21:14:27 4. both underneath. 21:14:28 GALAXY DISSOLVED DUE TO UNSTABLE GRAVITATIONAL ORBITS, BUT NOT BEFORE SIMULTANEOUSLY ROUND AND CUBICAL STARS FORM 21:14:43 lament, and what else? 21:14:46 lament: i wish that made sense 21:14:49 oerjan: awesome 21:14:54 how long until intelligence :D 21:15:13 ehird, don't be silly, this is an emergent system 21:15:19 you can't track it like that 21:15:20 ehird: it makes sense. 21:15:25 you need to run it an see 21:15:27 SINGLE STARS UNSTABLE. BINARY STAR SYSTEMS STABLE UNDER RIGHT CONDITIONS. 21:15:37 oerjan, wow 21:15:41 neat 21:15:47 *STAR SYSTEMS 21:15:51 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 21:16:31 oerjan, then what? 21:16:48 SIMULTANEOUSLY ROUND AND CUBICAL PLANET FORMED NEAR CENTER OF MASS OF BINARY STAR SYSTEM 21:17:04 oerjan, right 21:17:05 then what? 21:18:03 oerjan, then what? 21:18:13 LIFEFORMS EVOLVE FORMED LIKE HEXAGONAL WHEELS 21:18:19 :D 21:18:25 WHEEL INVENTED? 21:18:33 ehird, no, no 21:18:33 NO, EVOLVED 21:18:42 wagon invented! 21:19:19 MACROSCOPING LIFEFORMS FORM USING THE MOST EASILY EVOLVED MOVEMENT, THE ROUND HEXAGONAL WHEEL 21:19:34 MACROSCOPING? 21:19:39 *IC 21:19:43 ah 21:19:48 IC circuits? 21:19:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:20:10 ROUND CUBIC MOON CRASHES INTO WORLD, CAUSING MASS EXTINCTION 21:20:19 oerjan, damn 21:20:21 then what? 21:20:31 (ORBIT WAS UNSTABLE, OF COURSE) 21:20:36 yes 21:20:50 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 21:21:08 oerjan, then what? 21:21:14 AS WATER IS HIGHLY FLAMMABLE, LIFE MAINLY SPREADS ON DRY LAND 21:21:28 ehird, it looks like PI != BUILT_IN_PI works very well 21:21:31 doesn't* 21:21:40 looks interesting to me 21:21:43 hm 21:21:55 oerjan, next? 21:22:09 INTELLIGENT SOCIAL CREATURES (ON WHEELS) EVOLVE 21:22:22 WILLY ON WHEELS 21:22:22 ok... now what? 21:22:30 ehird, err? meme? 21:22:37 infamous wikipedia vandal 21:22:40 aha 21:22:42 all he did was: 21:22:45 yes sounds familiar now 21:22:47 DUE TO THEIR INTELLIGENCE THEY ARE CAPABLE OF UTILIZING THE DANGEROUS WATER FOR TECHNOLOGY SUCH AS HEATING 21:22:47 move a page named X to X on Wheels! 21:22:51 Goat -> Goat on Wheels! 21:23:00 oerjan: :D 21:23:07 oerjan, nice 21:23:48 oerjan, then what? 21:24:24 CIVILIZATION TAKES A HUGE LEAP FORWARD AS AN IMMENSELY MORE EFFECTIVE MEANS OF PROPULSION IS INVENTED: THE FOOT. 21:24:34 haha 21:24:40 oerjan, how does the foot work? 21:25:07 oerjan: any mathematicians yet? 21:25:16 RATHER THAN WHEELS, IT HAS SIX "TOES" TO PUT FORCE ON THE GROUND 21:25:18 are they looking for messages and codes in the elusive constant known as pi, roughly 3.00000000000000000000000? 21:25:39 PHILOSOPHY INVENTED 21:26:28 GREAT STRIDES ARE MADE BY UNDERSTANDING THE FUNDAMENTAL MATERIALS WATER, FIRE, AIR AND CHEWING GUM 21:26:30 ehird, err it is exactly 3 21:26:37 AnMaster: it was a joke 21:26:41 3.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 21:27:01 SOME PHILOSOPHERS ATTEMPT TO GAIN A DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF NUMBERS AND GEOMETRY. 21:27:05 :DD 21:27:11 yay 21:27:23 HOWEVER, THESE PEOPLE SWIFTLY AND INEVITABLE TURN INSANE FOR SOME REASON 21:27:31 :D 21:27:33 *INEVITABLY 21:27:36 oerjan, what is the ratio of a cube to it's side? 21:27:51 err 21:27:56 the side of a square 21:28:08 THE VOLUM OF A CUBE IS PI * R^3 21:28:09 to it's circumfence 21:28:12 *VOLUME 21:28:22 spelling 21:29:08 HM 21:29:26 "CIRCUMFERENCE" 21:29:26 oerjan, yes? 21:29:29 yes 21:29:32 what is the ratio of that 21:29:38 to the side of a square 21:30:00 NO ONE HAS EVER MANAGED TO FIND THAT OUT WITHOUT PANICKING 21:30:02 * AnMaster puts fence poles all around the circumference 21:30:25 oerjan: what next 21:30:34 yes what is next? 21:30:41 ARCHITECTURE IS INVENTED 21:30:47 ehird, also I got a great idea for the next one 21:30:56 ehird, I can't tell you yet but 21:31:15 oerjan: then? 21:31:30 ALTHOUGH ARCHITECTS TEND TO GO MAD AFTER A FEW YEARS 21:31:35 haha 21:31:41 hee 21:32:24 BUT WITH THE MIRACLES OF ARCHITECTURE, A 7 FEET (OR WHEEL) TALL TOWER IS CREATED REACHING ABOVE THE ATMOSPHERE 21:32:56 :D 21:33:00 AND TUNNELS ARE BUILT ALLOWING PEOPLE TO WALK (WELL, ROLL) ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET IN A FEW MINUTES 21:33:11 i like this 21:33:38 yes 21:34:38 AT THE SAME TIME, A 5 FEET BY 5 FEET AREA IS ENOUGH FOR A LARGE PALACE 21:34:42 :D 21:35:06 oerjan, what is one FEET in meters? 21:35:21 ABOUT 1/PI METERS 21:35:47 oerjan, ok 21:35:55 oerjan, anything interesting? 21:36:28 THANKS TO TECHNOLOGY THE PLANET NOW HAS ROOM ENOUGH FOR EVERYONE, BUT WITH EASY ACCESS THROUGH THE TOWERS SPACE EXPLORATION NEVERTHELESS STARTS TAKING PLACE 21:36:39 :D 21:36:52 oerjan, yay 21:37:03 oerjan: FASTFORWARd 21:37:05 oerjan: FASTFORWARD 21:37:08 ALTHOUGH SATELLITES TURN OUT TO BE HARD 21:37:13 oerjan, oh? 21:37:13 why? 21:37:16 (UNSTABLE ORBITS) 21:37:19 aha 21:37:21 right 21:37:28 just mount them at the top of the towers 21:38:11 oerjan, FASTFORWARD TO INTERESTING 21:38:14 A NETWORK OF TOWERS IS BUILT, AND A HUGE HEXAGON PLACED ON TOP OF THEM ENCIRCLING THE PLANET'S EQUATOR 21:38:23 oerjan, wow 21:38:25 then what? 21:38:57 oerjan: 21:39:03 ehird, I enter it 21:39:04 FROM THE LOW GRAVITY OF THE HEXAGON, SPACE WAGONS CAN EASILY TAKE OFF AND THE SOLAR SYSTEM IS SETTLED 21:39:04 ok? 21:39:14 hmm 21:39:15 ehird, you can save state 21:39:17 oerjan: fastforward 21:39:19 to really interesting 21:39:21 AnMaster: almost 21:39:55 oerjan, even the gas dwarfs and the stone giants? 21:40:14 YOU MEAN THE WATER DWARFS 21:40:19 oerjan, right 21:40:20 sorr 21:40:22 sorry* 21:40:32 oerjan, does slood exist? 21:41:04 1000 YEARS LATER A TRIANGULAR RING AROUND THE BINARY STAR HAS BEEN BUILT. ADVANCED ARCHITECTURE ALLOWS THIS TO BE USED FOR FTL TRAVEL 21:41:13 wow 21:41:18 ehird, time to save yet? 21:41:28 hmm 21:41:33 oerjan: really fast forward to most interesting thing ever 21:41:50 then save 21:42:00 yes 21:42:12 A BLACK HOLE IS FOUND IN A NEIGHBORING GALAXY, DESPITE BEING THOUGHT IMPOSSIBLE 21:42:18 ok 21:42:23 HARBORING AN ALIEN RACE 21:42:23 ehird, save the state 21:42:27 nice 21:42:30 oerjan is being extremely entertaining tonight 21:42:38 olsner, yes indeed 21:42:45 oerjan: save 21:42:52 ehird, reset it? 21:42:56 or shall I do that? 21:43:00 AnMaster: sure 21:43:06 oerjan, RESET 21:43:11 *BURP* 21:43:12 # UNVRS /I 21:43:12 ENTERING INTERACTIVE MODE . . . 21:43:12 1> FIND UNIVERSE WHERE EXISTS(SPACE TURTLES) AND EXISTS(MAGIC) AND EXISTS(DISCWORLD) AND EXISTS(SLOOD); 21:43:12 2> DUMP CONSTANTS; 21:43:29 * AnMaster waits for the computation 21:43:41 oh wait forgot 21:43:43 AnMaster: I predict fine structure will be non-numerical 21:43:44 3> EXECUTE; 21:43:51 there 21:43:57 ehird, very probably 21:44:10 ehird, either that or complex 21:44:16 FSC: I * ALEPH_3 21:44:20 ehird, also I asked it to dump all constant as you see 21:44:26 oerjan, other constants? 21:44:40 PI: 3.14159265358979... 21:44:47 how boring 21:44:48 :D 21:44:50 oerjan: what about E 21:44:50 oerjan, come on there are more 21:44:55 ehird, lets run it too 21:44:55 or the gravitational constant 21:44:58 AnMaster: wait 21:45:01 let's see what E & G are 21:45:02 or the planck one 21:45:03 E: 2.71828182818281828... 21:45:07 G? 21:45:09 Planck? 21:45:19 G IS DIMENSIONAL 21:45:24 wow! 21:45:24 Planck? 21:45:42 Planck? 21:45:51 oerjan: Planck? 21:45:51 NOT DIMENSIONLESS EITHER 21:45:55 oerjan, what is R? 21:45:59 oerjan: Planck!!!!!!!!!!? 21:46:18 ehird, err it has dimensions 21:46:23 nothing odd with that 21:46:27 i'm asking 21:46:29 what is the planck constant 21:46:29 :P 21:46:31 PLANCK NONEXISTENT. THAUMA = 1.7905 21:46:32 yes 21:46:37 oo. 21:46:37 yay 21:46:38 wait 21:46:39 oerjan 21:46:42 planck = tick, no? 21:46:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_Discworld_concepts#Tick 21:46:57 * ehird awaits "ER, YES" 21:47:09 I HAVE NOT READ ALL DISCWORLD BOOKS 21:47:14 :D 21:47:22 CONSTANTS+= LAST RESULT; 21:47:25 START 21:47:28 21:47:35 yay 21:47:40 HM? 21:47:46 we're setting the constants 21:47:50 to the one found by that query 21:47:53 and starting the universe 21:47:53 indeed 21:47:55 WAR OF GIANT TURTLES 21:47:59 :D 21:48:01 wait what? 21:48:08 that isn't how it worked, see Eric 21:48:16 shush 21:48:16 :P 21:48:25 same constants != identical 21:48:26 ehird, you read them all? 21:48:28 I'VE READ ERIC. OH RIGHT. 21:48:31 ehird, hm true 21:48:37 (LAST BOOK I READ, ACTUALLY) 21:48:46 DOESN'T MEAN I REMEMBER IT :d 21:48:53 *:D 21:48:58 oerjan, creator, sandwich 21:48:59 DARN CAPSLOCK 21:48:59 typoputer 21:49:05 AH YES 21:49:09 "typuter" 21:49:26 IT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE BEEN A TURTLE SANDWICH 21:49:40 wtf it was majonäs? 21:49:42 iirc 21:49:44 anyway 21:49:46 go on 21:50:08 DEATH APPEARS 21:50:09 this could be one that matched the query but didn't match in all details 21:50:26 yes 21:50:47 DEATH SAYS: "YOUR CAPS LOCK IS IN VIOLATION OF MY REGISTERED TRADEMARK. PLEASE LEAVE THIS UNIVERSE IMMEDIATELY." 21:50:53 haha 21:50:55 :D 21:51:14 "THE END." 21:51:18 lol 21:51:20 okay 21:51:22 oerjan: RESET 21:51:23 argh 21:51:27 I was entering a command 21:51:30 *BURP* 21:51:37 # LIST 21:51:37 to enter stealth mode 21:51:42 ehird, err 21:51:43 DIR 21:51:46 no 21:51:50 this is oerjanix 21:51:50 no? 21:51:53 ah 21:52:21 wait 21:52:24 I just got an idea 21:52:26 * ehird awaits directory listing 21:52:40 what about running our universe pause at earth time, and set money? 21:52:42 or 21:52:44 even better 21:52:51 AnMaster: after the directory listing 21:52:53 * ehird awaits eorj 21:52:56 QUERY the system for 21:52:57 ./ ../ CTHULHU/ MISC/ UNIV/ 21:53:05 AnMaster: stop stop wait :P 21:53:10 # LIST CTHULHU 21:53:14 ehird, the important unsolved problems 21:53:17 PERMISSION DENIED 21:53:22 # SUDO LIST CTHULHU 21:53:23 ehird, no it was created by NaN universe 21:53:27 AnMaster: :D 21:53:30 we can just reboot it. 21:53:41 ehird, it didn't work, I even did a clean reinstall 21:53:49 eh, it's just a directory listing 21:53:52 boy, oerjanix is slow sometimes 21:53:53 hm 21:54:07 * ehird pokes oerjan 21:54:11 ehird, anyway what about the Riemann hypothesis 21:54:11 ./ ../ ESCAPE_REALWORLD@ HASTUR HASTUR HASTUR 21:54:17 yikes 21:54:19 ARGH 21:54:30 # SUDO OBLITERATE_DIRECTORY CTHULHU/ 21:54:50 PERMISSION DENIED. PLEASE REPORT FOR TERMINATION. 21:55:01 ehird, look what you done 21:55:01 -!- Corun has joined. 21:56:03 oerjan, what is next? 21:56:12 ehird, anyway 21:56:13 WHERE? 21:56:14 you fix it 21:56:17 but but 21:56:23 i'm root 21:56:42 ehird, oh I turned on securelevels before 21:56:44 up to 3 21:56:47 reboot it to fix 21:57:02 * AnMaster resets the oerjanputer 21:57:12 # SUDO OBLITERATE_DIRECTORY CTHULHU/ 21:57:13 *BURP* 21:57:25 -!- ehird has left (?). 21:57:27 -!- ehird has joined. 21:57:33 PERMISSION DENIED. AND I'M NOT HERE, ANYWAY. 21:57:39 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating..."). 21:57:45 -!- ehird has joined. 21:58:59 well 21:59:00 night 21:59:04 oerjan, it has been fun 21:59:04 good night 21:59:05 :) 21:59:05 oerjan: ping 21:59:13 * ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating...") 21:59:13 ah 21:59:15 bye 21:59:18 did you really crash? 21:59:22 Bouncer troubles. 21:59:27 ehird, it crashed? 21:59:35 bsmntbombdood: ais523: either 2 or 3 <<< 2 21:59:36 no, it was behaving weirdly 21:59:38 so i killed it 21:59:39 ehird, did you think some old one was involved? 22:00:08 night anwyay 22:00:12 bye 22:00:29 ehird, thanks for testing cfunge :) 22:00:38 now to break it 22:00:40 ehird, you know some new fingerprints lately are DATE and NCRS 22:00:42 * ehird pipes /dev/urandom to cfunge 22:00:47 I'm sure they both have bugs 22:00:55 ehird, see tools/fuzz-test.sh 22:00:59 * ehird does cfunge /dev/random 22:01:01 AnMaster: i'm not rebuilding 22:01:03 hmm 22:01:06 ehird, ok, true 22:01:07 does cfunge read the whole prog 22:01:09 before executing? 22:01:12 ehird, it mmaps() 22:01:14 and loads it all 22:01:19 will cfunge /dev/random not work then 22:01:21 so yes 22:01:24 ehird, 22:01:25 nop 22:01:31 ok, i'll use head 22:01:32 like 22:01:37 head --lines 30 22:01:43 ehird, and load that yes 22:01:48 % head --lines 30 /dev/urandom|cfunge /dev/stdin 22:01:50 that is what the fuzz test script does 22:01:52 err 22:01:54 mmap() on file failed: Invalid argument 22:01:54 Failed to process file "/dev/stdin": Invalid argument 22:01:55 :( 22:01:57 ehird, can you mmap() stdin? 22:02:01 guess not :P 22:02:03 >x; then 22:02:11 % head --lines 30 /dev/urandom>x; cfunge x 22:02:14 ehird, you way want a chroot 22:02:21 or it could overwrite your stuff 22:02:29 remember it has FILE IO 22:02:32 I think the likelihood of it hitting a valid funge program that does destructful stuff is slim 22:02:51 ehird, there is also -S that hopefully should successfully sandbox it 22:02:56 ehird, also out of memory can happen 22:02:57 or such 22:02:58 okay 22:03:00 maybe a psoxy should use an encoding that didn't rely on any specific character numbers. 22:03:03 % head --lines 5 /dev/urandom>x; cfunge -S x 22:03:03 consider a program like: 22:03:05 [SITS THERE] 22:03:06 >t< 22:03:10 at the first line 22:03:17 that will certainly OOM 22:03:21 why doesn't this terminate I wonder 22:03:30 ehird, you could run an infinite loop? 22:03:36 that is very likely 22:03:37 yeah but every single time? 22:03:42 ºdð^L­¯<98>VH³ÜL,g^HC^PÏÉ^\¬¦^N*4¸¢þ<97>¼>±^@¶¿R<9c>!]<9a>:;á* 22:03:44 that runs indefinitely 22:03:45 ehird, remember invalid commands reflect 22:03:46 so 22:03:48 ah 22:03:51 so infinite reflect 22:03:59 ehird, which results in infinite loop yes 22:04:01 * ehird cat -v then 22:04:20 % cat -v /dev/urandom|head --lines 10 >x; cfunge -S x 22:04:21 still infloops ;P 22:04:23 ehird, you will notice that the fuzz test script only tests valid chars 22:04:26 mm 22:04:27 to see anything interesting 22:04:40 ehird, it also needs a build calling alarm() 22:04:41 to end 22:04:43 why does it need a special build 22:04:49 ehird, to quit with alarm() 22:04:51 after a while 22:04:52 why 22:04:53 and 22:05:13 to not dump spurious confusing exit code on exit 22:05:14 psygnisfive: and simultaneously, do you like girls? do you like boys? <<< both 22:05:17 that confuse the script 22:05:21 AnMaster: This interface is made obsolete by setitimer(2). 22:05:21 :P 22:05:27 ehird, well 22:05:35 * ehird does fuzz-test _without_ alarm 22:05:36 you need to edit global.h anyway 22:05:54 tools/fuzz-test.sh: line 47: 205b: value too great for base (error token is "205b") 22:05:54 There must be a copy of the binary in the top source directory. 22:05:56 why 22:06:05 oklofok, we know you're bi 22:06:06 wtf 22:06:09 i was asking about bsmntbombdude 22:06:10 if [[ "${BASH_VERSINFO[0]}${BASH_VERSINFO[1]}" -lt 31 ]]; then 22:06:12 is the error line 22:06:13 but 22:06:17 why does the binary have to be in the top src dir 22:06:28 ehird, oh that is because of paths 22:06:31 anyway 22:06:43 ln -s `which cfunge` . 22:06:44 :P 22:06:52 ehird, yep 22:06:53 works fine 22:06:56 ehird, anyway it needs valgrind 22:07:00 oh. 22:07:00 comment that part ouyt 22:07:02 out* 22:07:07 ehird, read the comments in the script 22:07:11 it isn't very generic 22:07:27 also 22:07:41 s/# 2) Enable LEAK_MODE in cmake, or valgrind will fail./# 2) Disable USE_GC in cmake, or valgrind will fail./ 22:07:42 :P 22:07:45 old text 22:07:50 I'll update tomorrow 22:07:53 night now 22:07:56 by 22:07:56 e 22:08:06 * Generating random program 22:08:06 * Running free standing 22:08:08 * Exit code was 0, ok 22:08:18 ehird, the magic numbers in checkerror() may need changing 22:08:22 I don't know for your system 22:08:23 :P 22:08:30 anyway NIGHT 22:08:32 ow my memory 22:08:35 it sucks 22:08:39 computer that is 22:08:39 :P 22:08:44 ehird, what? 22:08:46 ehird, what? 22:08:52 i think it ran a mem hogger 22:09:02 fuzzer 22:09:03 ehird, you set ulimits I assume? 22:09:06 nope 22:09:06 :D 22:09:07 it would be stupid to not do it 22:09:12 psygnisfive: no bsmntbombdood 22:09:16 ehird, 60 MB or so on OS X I guess 22:09:16 :P 22:09:20 oh is he? 22:09:21 ok. 22:09:37 bsmnt_bot: hi 22:09:42 ~exec sys.stdout("hi") 22:09:42 it's bad enough you can't remember everything bsmntbombdood has said, you don't remember contexts in which you said your own lines 22:09:43 hi 22:09:51 i mean what's that about 22:10:01 get some social skills man 22:10:12 * oerjan swats oklofok -----### 22:10:23 well hey 22:10:33 psygnisfive asks, bsmntbombdood answers, i remember the answer, he doesn't 22:10:33 we don't use dirty words here! 22:10:39 oh :) 22:11:02 well, if bsmnt answered, i wasnt aware 22:11:40 he answered when you asked the time before that 22:11:44 "do you have sex with guys" 22:11:47 ah well. 22:11:49 "no. but for a technicality" 22:11:54 ehird, I may try to make it more portable this weekend 22:11:55 but not now 22:11:55 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:11:59 what was the technicality? 22:12:07 he's a virgin 22:12:09 i think 22:12:11 wast he implication 22:12:11 joke 22:12:11 for now you have to figure any issue out yourself with the fuzz test script. since I need to sleep 22:12:11 the same reason nerds don't get vag 22:12:12 thing 22:12:16 they're nerds 22:12:20 AnMaster: bye 22:12:21 I have piano lessons tomorrow morning 22:12:24 of course, bsmntbombdood might not really be a nerd, but anyway. 22:12:25 women are more beautiful than men 22:12:41 AnMaster: what do you play? 22:13:52 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 22:14:06 wee power outage :D 22:14:15 oklofok, what was the technicality? 22:16:39 he told you. 22:16:42 virginity. 22:16:49 power outage dude. 22:16:56 i see. how old is bsmnt again? 22:17:35 like 17 or sth 22:17:39 maybe older now 22:17:46 i figured he was like 25. hm 22:17:58 i'm 42, and still a virgin 22:18:49 lament you're not 42 22:18:53 you're like 15 22:18:59 err no :P 22:19:06 AnMaster: ehird, also that looks fucked <<< caughtcha 22:19:08 think about this logically 22:19:10 he was here in 2002 22:19:23 yeah well, he was a youngun even then :P 22:19:35 somehow I doubt he was a 9 year old when he co-founded this place :P 22:19:44 you could've been! 22:19:58 no 22:20:00 lament is 7, i think 22:20:01 I was an idiot when I was 9 22:20:02 err or 6 22:20:12 ok im off to sit outside and enjoy the stormy atmosphere 22:20:12 he once told us he was 5 22:20:12 <3 22:20:13 my role is far more important than just co-founder 22:20:13 i think lament might be offended that you consider him 15 psygnisf_ 22:20:23 it was my suggestion to put the channel on freenode 22:20:26 :P 22:20:29 ok fine he's 16 22:20:30 opn, back then 22:20:30 lament: you probably remember the year 22:20:31 i think they wanted efnet 22:20:33 i'm bad at that 22:20:35 lament: ew 22:20:46 i'd never have heard of it in that case 22:20:47 good or bad? 22:20:48 you decide 22:20:49 well you can just calc that from your current age ofc 22:20:52 ehird: tricky 22:20:56 that was kinda stupid of me. 22:24:16 "hey everybody, i'm looking at gay porno", and a picture of a pussy. i agree, not very clever. 22:28:53 AnMaster: snake lacks it too <<< no 22:29:00 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:29:01 except snake on reals 22:31:33 oklofok: er, what 22:31:37 that site pops up 22:31:39 infinite popups 22:31:41 of shock sites 22:31:48 popup blocker i guess 22:31:51 it's Last Measure. 22:37:45 ehird: oh, well i have ie so there was just one. 22:37:53 you know, because it's so great? yeah you probably know 22:38:01 totally. 22:38:01 i don't use blockers 22:38:21 if ie has a popup blocker, i should probably remover it 22:39:05 -!- comex has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating..."). 22:39:19 -!- comex has joined. 22:40:10 i mean it's not acceptable for a browser to need a popup blocker, wanting the browser to crash if a website does something weird is the exception, you should need to get an "infinite popup disblocker" for that 22:40:20 i would probably get it 22:40:55 because i could definitely kick an infinite amount of popup ass manually. 22:41:06 or is it more like pedally 22:41:10 -!- comex has quit (Client Quit). 22:41:23 -!- comex has joined. 22:45:11 -!- comex has quit (Client Quit). 22:45:25 -!- comex has joined. 23:10:10 * ehird considers saying fuck it to the modern invention of hypertext and instead publish articles as .txt 23:10:26 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:11:22 What is it about this Ruby thing? -- Gerson Kurz 2002 23:21:38 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 23:36:44 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 23:44:09 Use gopher 23:45:03 gopher sux 23:45:17 heresy :( 23:46:10 * ehird decides that the best way to say fuck it and never look at html again is to write a script which converts markdown into it with the basic headers and use it 23:46:14 i shall call it a "blog" 23:46:19 * ehird = revolutionary 23:46:49 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:47:08 you're meant to act surprised 23:47:11 and go wooooooah 23:48:36 wooooooah :o 23:49:10 amazing eh 23:49:20 quite so 23:49:26 but I'd rather have a phlog 23:49:46 * ehird flogs Asztal 23:49:49 er 23:49:50 Azstal: 23:49:53 (aaaaaaaargh) 23:52:06 -!- Azstal has quit ("I have that urge, Rimmer. It's got nothing to do with past lives."). 23:52:19 * ehird ponders and decides that google apps >>>>>> running my own mail server 23:52:34 that's what I decided too. 23:52:48 thankfully it allows catch-all addresses 23:54:10 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 23:56:20 you know, my life was a lot better before I ever read the word typography 23:56:41 now I'm obsessed 23:56:49 * ehird twitches 23:57:54 * ehird considers that nobody cares what he has to say so writing a blog is pointless 23:58:55 come to think of it, I should give up on IRC too 2009-01-08: 00:01:22 00:01:34 i think the error there is that you use gregor's "matching" colours generator 00:02:19 :) 00:04:01 hmm, putting a shadow on every bit of text either looks nice or awful 00:04:03 I can't decide which 00:42:05 Asztal: quick, what's your favourite colour 00:45:18 guys, im going to start doing some experiments with evolutionary algorithms and using them to design code 00:45:23 k 00:45:28 blue 00:45:37 oklofok: what shade 00:45:43 and the way i want to work with it is really with just a simple little simulated processor 00:45:49 any suggestions for what it should do? 00:45:55 no 00:45:56 the processor, i mean 00:45:58 ehird: i think pretty dark 00:46:05 psygnisf_: just make it a stack machine 00:46:17 im not sure how to do that D: 00:46:26 psygnisf_: look it up, tard :P 00:46:33 * psygnisf_ fwaps ehird 00:46:46 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive. 00:46:50 psygnisf_: well maybe it could digest food or something 00:47:05 that's a pretty interesting algorithmic problem 00:47:16 i keep trying to tab-complete "algorithm" 00:47:17 he means the cpu 00:47:35 ehird: err so? 00:47:37 ehird, i was thinking more along the lines of what kind of instruction set should i include. 00:47:42 psygnisfive: stack-based. 00:47:45 :P 00:47:48 program is a list of words. 00:47:50 basic stack manipulation words, 00:47:55 define your own words (i.e. call stack) 00:47:57 * oklofok stands behind his suggestion 00:48:02 and arithmetic 00:48:05 and IO. 00:48:15 IO wont be necessary i think. 00:48:20 well, some will but 00:48:33 you need io to do anyhting with the cpu :P 00:48:39 well you could analyze the stack. 00:48:44 yeah. that was my plan 00:49:39 i was thinking of just using a non-stack machine. with like, memory access stuff 00:49:46 instead of a stack 00:49:49 stack is simpler. 00:49:57 ooooooo 00:50:04 eh.. why simpler? 00:50:15 you're the one who said wtf how do i do that 00:50:16 i have an opinion on this, but i guess i could sleep 00:50:17 don't question me :P 00:50:57 pretend im not going to use a stack machine :P 00:51:07 no, because that's the best way 00:51:10 hush 00:51:12 no. 00:51:16 im going to have a RAM machine 00:51:22 no registers 00:51:26 you asked for advice, I gave it, you ignored it, so I'm not going to talk on the subject any more. 00:51:30 just memory 00:51:36 what instruction set should i use 00:51:40 a stack-based one. 00:51:44 :P 00:51:52 "do" and "don't" 00:51:56 that's all you need 00:52:01 ok give me a good introduction to a sensible stack machine 00:52:05 forth 00:52:06 google it 00:52:13 i dont get forth's conditionals tho 00:52:18 you don't need to. 00:52:22 just make up your own branching 00:52:22 dont i? 00:52:35 i dont understand stack-based branching at all 00:53:21 put code on stack, call it or do a goto on the original code, which is of course not very stacky 00:53:35 or do a more structured loop on code 00:53:39 or both 00:53:40 psygnisfive: just do it like this: 00:53:59 IF pushes the address of the current instruction pointer on the stack 00:54:04 i don't remember how forth did it, just that i'm pretty sure i considered it stupied 00:54:12 psygnisfive: and 00:54:15 IF also stops code execution 00:54:18 i.e. 00:54:19 IF a b c 00:54:21 will just run if 00:54:24 and skip past a b c 00:54:26 until you get to THEN 00:54:34 but it'll push abc to the stack? 00:54:37 no 00:54:39 ok 00:54:41 IF a b c will push the IP address at IF 00:54:45 then zip over a b and c 00:54:45 then 00:54:47 THEN 00:54:50 pops that ip 00:54:53 and then pops the next thing 00:54:55 if the next thing is 0 00:55:01 it just keeps executing past THEN 00:55:03 otherwise 00:55:10 it sets the ip to the one it popped 00:55:12 that was set by IF 00:55:18 which, of course, makes it then run the a b c 00:55:20 see? simple 00:55:27 im not entirely sure i follow D: 00:55:32 ill reread that tho 00:55:32 * oklofok neither 00:55:34 so 00:55:43 psygnisfive: which part was confusing? 00:55:51 nevermind 00:55:52 what operations would you say are absolutely necessary? 00:55:57 oh 00:56:01 stack ones 00:56:02 well it was pretty clear actually 00:56:03 arithmetic 00:56:12 and branching 00:56:14 i more like assumed it was a bad explanation because i didn't feel like reading it properly 00:56:15 ok. 00:56:18 that's just about it 00:56:22 psygnisfive: what was confusing ? 00:56:32 stack ones like push, pop, and swap? 00:56:38 yep 00:56:39 and rot 00:56:40 and stuff 00:56:42 ehird, dont worry. its confusing because i didnt run it in my head 00:56:43 rot? 00:56:46 rotate 00:56:53 i forget the exact stack diagram 00:56:56 i think i know what that means 00:57:00 psygnisfive: basically you need to be able to fetch arbitrary stuff from the stack 00:57:03 the simplest way is 00:57:07 N pick 00:57:09 which means 00:57:11 0 = top of stack 00:57:13 1 = one down 00:57:13 etc 00:57:16 psygnisfive: well it's pretty ugly what he described, you shouldn't branch on the code, it's not pure you know. 00:57:18 it picks the Nth element of the stack 00:57:21 takes it from its currnet position 00:57:22 and moves it to the top 00:57:27 oklofok: it's simple 00:57:28 and easy 00:57:36 you should do it purely functionally, because that's so much zenner. 00:57:45 ehird: did he ask for something easy? 00:57:48 oklofok: don't know how :P 00:57:49 yes 00:57:52 besides 00:57:54 it's a cpu 00:57:56 they aren't purely functional. 00:58:16 ehird: stop being realistic and begin being pure 00:58:29 clense yourself 01:00:12 psygnisfive: well essentially do it like underload 01:00:16 it's pretty pure 01:00:22 in fact maybe just have underload? 01:00:38 or that ...what's the opposite of extension... of it 01:00:39 :P 01:00:41 sigh 01:00:49 imperative stack based is the simplest way, really 01:00:52 psygnisfive: i'll tell you 01:00:52 tomorrow 01:00:53 ok? 01:01:00 sure 01:01:12 there's nothing to tell, i refuse to believe there was something here he didn't understand 01:01:48 ehird: yes, it's the simplest, but what about the puppies? 01:02:07 you really want them to live in a world without purity? 01:02:27 i mean killing puppies just so the rest get scared isn't that nice 01:02:31 it's horrible 01:02:40 so 01:02:48 i think i'm gonna read a comic now 01:02:49 -> 01:10:13 done 01:10:45 i actually read more like 50, but my internet is broken now, also maybe sleep 01:10:46 carry on 01:10:50 ~> 03:00:22 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:29:38 I think I'm going to write factorial for bugSophia 03:55:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:14:59 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:30:34 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 05:50:44 of course, bsmntbombdood might not really be a nerd, but anyway. 05:50:45 lies 05:51:19 Prove your nerdity, bsmntbombdood 05:51:40 how 05:51:50 Say something nerdy 05:51:56 no 05:52:04 You are no nerd 05:52:20 lies 05:52:26 no 05:53:13 and anyway, why were you talking about my [lack of a] sex life? 05:53:51 It arouses me to think of it 05:54:02 oh well that's good to know 06:30:16 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to grndlvlbombdood. 06:33:23 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:40:01 Slereah_: hey baby 06:50:34 -!- olsner has joined. 07:22:00 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 07:32:38 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:22 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:18:45 -!- olsner has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:38:07 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("e disasterous."). 08:40:07 -!- oklopol has joined. 09:13:11 ehird, I did some plotting on the timings you gave me yesterday 09:13:17 ehird, quite interesting 09:13:36 however two runs near the end take much longer, any clue why? 09:13:53 as in "more than twice as long" 09:19:36 hm 09:19:48 twice as much system time then and much lower CPU usage 09:19:54 well I guess something else ran then 09:26:17 it's not a realistic benchmark unless you have a torrent program and a few flash games in the background 09:37:15 oklopol, haha 09:44:22 bbl 10:22:15 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:30:28 -!- ais523_ has joined. 10:30:28 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:53:17 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 11:26:38 -!- Corun has joined. 13:46:55 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:02:47 -!- fungot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:08:39 o 14:08:45 oko 14:08:54 Oh noes. Forgot the bot completely. 14:11:35 hi ais523 14:12:05 hi ehird 14:12:36 still on US time? 14:12:48 AnMaster: Yeah, stuff was running for those slow runs. 14:13:01 ehird: no 14:13:02 I reset last night 14:13:17 good now explain :-P 14:13:35 well, it was a gradual process 14:13:44 a few nights ago, my sister went back to school 14:13:48 and she had loads of homework to do 14:13:51 -!- fungot has joined. 14:13:54 because she hadn't done it during the holiday 14:13:56 hi fungot 14:13:57 ais523: ah. ok. 8. i'd prefer ' r5rs,' by the mit peeps my concatenative lang 14:14:17 her/y mother was upset that she was staying up so late 14:14:24 so she was telling her to go to bed all through the night 14:14:26 keeping me awake 14:14:34 so it reached morning, and I still hadn't gone to sleep 14:14:50 that gave me a time offset from local time of several hours, so I was effectively on US time 14:14:59 I went to bed through the day because I had to get sleep some time 14:15:11 then in the evening, decided I needed to use the Internet, so I went round to a relative's house 14:15:18 that night it was really really cold 14:15:28 so much so that walking home would have been dangerous due to all the ice 14:15:31 so I stayed there overnight 14:15:44 staying online to avoid having to sleep there 14:15:50 insomnia != living on US time, surely 14:16:02 ehird: well, I was sleeping the right amount 14:16:04 i've been up for I think max around 40 hours at a time 14:16:06 the day after too 14:16:11 just through the day 14:16:12 my hypothesis is that lack of sleep is the most psychedelic drug ever 14:16:14 it was bizarre 14:16:18 also, heh 14:16:24 yeah 14:16:28 when I was up 40 hours I started talking about recursive campfires. 14:16:54 40 isn't all that much 14:16:59 i can do that after much less 14:16:59 that's just missing one night's sleep, I've done that before 14:17:31 i've done about 38, don't recall a longer instance 14:18:43 ais523: yeah, but i suck without sleep. 14:18:48 or was it 48 14:19:56 well dunno, i just remember it wasn't psychedelic, i was just a bit tired so i went to sleep. 14:51:10 -!- Corun has joined. 14:56:59 -!- jix has joined. 15:07:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:11:32 12:26:18 what's J anyway? 15:11:32 13:34:57 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_programming_language 15:11:34 13:39:02 That's horrible. 15:11:36 -- 2004-04-04 15:11:54 innocence betrayed. 15:12:04 ooh 15:12:06 the oerjanputer 15:12:11 it lives! 15:12:19 DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT 15:12:23 # LIST 15:12:35 (thinking about the oerjanputer can drive you insane) 15:12:38 :D 15:12:39 00:00:00 --- log: started esoteric/04.09.09 15:12:39 23:59:59 --- log: ended esoteric/04.09.09 15:12:44 that was an eventful day 15:13:05 22:44:25 --- quit: ChanServ (ACK! SIGSEGV!) 15:13:08 -- 2004-09-07 15:13:26 ./ ../ BUNNIES/ CUTE_BUNNIES/ UNIV/ 15:13:35 # LIST BUNNIES & CUTE_BUNNIES 15:14:00 ESCAPE_REALWORLD@ HASTUR HASTUR HASTUR AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 15:15:13 # SAFELEVEL=OFF & SUDO OBLITERATE /FORCE BUNNIES & CUTE_BUNNIES 15:15:39 force bunnies? 15:15:43 DONE. 15:15:44 that's perverted. 15:15:47 # LIST 15:15:49 lament: very. 15:15:55 ./ ../ .../ UNIV/ 15:16:04 # LIST .. 15:16:46 ./ ../ 15:16:59 # LIST ... 15:17:09 ESCAPE_REALWORLD@ HASTUR HASTUR HASTUR AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 15:17:50 # SAFELEVEL=OFF & SUDO OBLITERATE /FORCE /FOREVERMORE /COMPLETELY_DESTROY ... 15:18:02 DONE. 15:18:11 I thought sudo didn't work in allcaps 15:18:13 # LIST 15:18:17 ais523: this is oerjanix 15:18:20 ./ ../ UNIV/ 15:18:23 and sudo obliterate there reminded me of darcs obliterate 15:18:33 # LIST .; THEN LIST ..; THEN LIST UNIV 15:18:34 meaning... sudo is now a version control system? 15:18:35 IT IS VERY DARC INDEED 15:18:46 ./ ../ univ/ 15:18:50 OOPS 15:18:54 DARN CAPSLOCK 15:18:55 what shell is this? 15:19:09 lament: oerjanjix oerjellshell v1.4 15:19:10 let's find out 15:19:10 ./ ../ .../ 15:19:12 *oerjanix 15:19:13 # VER 15:19:21 ais523: he did this yesterday 15:19:21 SAVED_STATE/ 15:19:22 if that errors, it isn't the dos shell 15:19:23 this computer runs the universe. 15:19:27 # @ 15:19:31 and if that errors, it isn't tcsh 15:19:36 # TOUCH UNIV 15:19:42 # SUDO SHUT UP 15:19:44 # UNVRS 15:19:50 hmmmmmmmmm 15:20:00 FINESTRUCTURE= i 15:20:02 START 15:20:05 YOU TOUCH THE UNIVERSE. YOU FEEL DIRTY. 15:20:08 (See: Yesterday's logs) 15:20:40 SILENT MODE ON 15:20:46 nooooo 15:20:53 # SUDO START TALKING AGAIN 15:20:58 SILENT MODE OFF 15:21:02 yay 15:21:09 * ehird waits to universe simulation to start 15:21:14 # CHROOT /.. 15:21:24 stop breaking it. 15:21:29 ehird: that's not breaking it 15:21:29 i'm running UNVRS. 15:21:32 yes it is 15:21:34 COMMAND NOT AVAILABLE 15:21:34 we're in UNVRS shell 15:21:40 that's jumping out of the box 15:21:45 no box 15:21:48 that's the whole computer 15:21:49 chrooting to /.. is going to the directory outside the root directory 15:21:57 now stfu, I'm running UNVRS> 15:21:58 TIME IS CYCLIC 15:22:03 which is how you get computers to attain enlightenment 15:22:06 oerjan: awesome 15:22:15 # DATE 15:22:20 lament: we're not in a shell. 15:22:26 we're in unvrs, dammit. read the docs. 15:22:38 sure, it should have date though 15:22:57 DATES ARE MEANINGLESS 15:23:00 i wonder what will be invented this time around 15:23:00 see? 15:23:01 sudo chroot /.. actually worked for me 15:23:03 oerjan: what's happening now 15:23:13 but I just ended up in the original root directory, AFAICT 15:23:14 # DATE CTHULHU 15:23:24 sheesh. you all have ADHD. 15:23:25 NO CTHULHU FOUND 15:23:30 oerjan: how goes the universe? 15:23:46 UNIVERSE COLLAPSES. LIFE IGNORES THIS. 15:23:48 if it doesn't have cthulhu in, it's probably saner than the real one 15:23:58 # SUDO SUMMON CTHULHU; THEN DATE CTHULHU 15:24:10 CTHULHU IS NOT INTERESTED IN A DATE 15:24:17 :( 15:24:22 THINKS YOU LOOK TASTY WITH KETCHUP, THOUGH 15:24:33 even the old ones reject me 15:24:34 sheesh, UNVRS is boring today. 15:24:38 ^DSHUTDOWN 15:24:48 *BURP* 15:25:08 * ehird boots up oerjanputer 15:25:14 # IGNOREALLCOMMANDS /EXCLUDE=UNVRS 15:25:15 *YAWN* 15:25:17 # UNVRS 15:25:27 FINESTRUCTURE= FINESTRUCTURE [RECURSIVE=ON] 15:25:29 START 15:25:39 # FIND DELICIOUSCAKE 15:25:47 COMMAND IGNORED 15:25:56 # SUDO SHUTUP FORCOMMAND=IGNORED 15:26:02 yay, peace and quiet 15:26:06 well, apart from unvrs. 15:26:29 GALAXIES FORM 15:26:42 LITTLE GALAXIES FORM INSIDE GALAXIES 15:26:44 i like how the fine structure constant doesn't ever change the fundamentals XD 15:26:47 ooh 15:26:49 fractal world 15:26:53 verrrrry interesting 15:27:08 MICROSCOPIC GALAXIES FORMED 15:27:10 :DD 15:27:30 GALACTIC TRADE UNION FORMED 15:27:51 TAXES INVENTED 15:27:54 dammit 15:27:55 wait 15:28:00 oerjan: are they fractal taxes? 15:28:05 OF COURSE 15:28:31 ok, I await the fractal revolution 15:28:43 IRS FORMS OUTLAWED, TOO COMPLICATED 15:28:47 :D 15:29:07 oerjan: and then? 15:29:35 MICROGALACTIC ORGANELLES EVOLVE TO PAY TAXES, SAVING WORK 15:29:54 :D 15:30:03 oerjan: nobody actually does work/ 15:30:09 they delegate it to their subgalaxy? 15:30:10 :D 15:30:15 to an infinite level? 15:30:23 PHILOSOPHY INVENTED DUE TO LOTS OF SPARE TIME 15:30:37 very good 15:30:56 THEORY THAT "ALL IS TAXES" GAINS GROUND 15:31:16 are taxes taxes? 15:31:19 (ALTHOUGH "GROUND" DOES NOT ACTUALLY EXIST) 15:31:22 OF COURSE 15:32:00 THEORY THAT "ALL IS GALAXIES" DISMISSED AS TOO MATERIALISTIC 15:32:25 DEATH INVENTED AS DUAL TO TAXES 15:32:32 * ehird awaits Recursive Theory 15:32:46 DEATH PROVES VERY UNPOPULAR 15:32:53 DEATH ABOLISHED 15:33:29 DEATH MINIMIZED; ABOLISHING IT COMPLETELY WOULD ALSO ABOLISH TAXES, WHICH IS BELIEVED TO BE BAD 15:33:51 TAXES ARE POPULAR? 15:34:41 TAXES ARE THE FOUNDATION OF PSYCHOLOGY; ABOLISHING THEM IS BELIEVED TO MEAN THE END OF INTELLIGENCE 15:34:59 TELL ME MORE ABOUT "TAXOLOGY" 15:35:45 THE BRAIN WORKS BY TAXING NEUROGALAXIES, WHICH AGAIN TAX MICROGALACTIC ORGANELLES (SEE ABOVE) 15:36:05 AHA 15:36:07 CONTINUE 15:36:32 FLAT TAX INVENTED 15:36:52 how are taxes enforced? 15:37:14 FLAT TAX OUTLAWED AS CAUSING BRAIN DAMAGE 15:37:37 :D 15:37:43 TAXES ARE A FUNDAMENTAL LAW OF NATURE, IT IS MEANINGLESS TO ASK "WHY" 15:38:14 ALIEN CIVILIZATION DISCOVERED 15:38:32 TO THE IMMENSE SURPRISE OF EVERYONE, HAS NO TAXES 15:38:41 :D 15:38:55 PLENTY OF DEATH THOUGH. WAR ENSUES. 15:39:04 TAXES ABOLISHED? 15:39:44 ZEN INVENTED, UNDER THE SLOGAN "DEATH TO TAXES" 15:39:48 :D 15:39:59 ZEN IS TAXED TO DEATH 15:40:41 PEACE DEAL FORMED WITH ALIEN CIVILIZATION 15:40:59 :D 15:41:09 are taxes still common? 15:41:17 ZEN LEGALIZED AGAIN AS PART OF PEACE DEAL. GOLDEN AGE OF ENLIGHTENMENT. 15:41:54 woop 15:41:56 who is the ultimate beneficiary of taxes? 15:42:06 lament: the universe 15:42:10 fractal, remember? 15:42:24 PHILOSOPHY NOW BASED ON THE BALANCE OF DEATH AND TAXES. DIFFERENT SOCIETIES CHOOSE DIFFERENT BALANCE LEVELS 15:42:35 :D 15:43:39 EXCESSIVE ZEN SHOWN TO CAUSE FLAT TAXES. ZEN PHILOSOPHERS DECLARE THIS ULTIMATE GOAL OF EXISTENCE. 15:43:44 :O 15:44:42 MATHEMATICIAN HYPOTHESIZES FLAT DEATH. TRAMPLED UNDER FOOT BY RELIGIOUS MOB. 15:44:52 lol 15:44:55 what is the religion? 15:45:30 EVANGELICAL TAXOLOGY 15:45:48 DEATH CULTS ALSO COMMON 15:45:53 : 15:45:53 :D 15:46:55 MATHEMATICIAN INVENTS FRACTAL THEORY. PUBLICATION REFUSED AS "TOO OBVIOUS" 15:47:26 :DD 15:47:31 MATHEMATICIANS FOUND TO CAUSE TOO MUCH TROUBLE, OUTLAWED. 15:47:58 D: 15:48:08 choo choo 15:48:39 MATHEMATICS RELEGATED TO COMPUTERS. DEVELOP SENTIENCE. 15:48:55 WAR ENSUES. 15:49:27 :D 15:49:33 COMPUTERS OUTLAWED, EXCEPT FOR SIMPLE FLASH GAMES. 15:50:14 :D 15:50:42 BIOLOGISTS DISCOVER COMPUTERS HAVE TAKEN OVER THE LOWER FRACTAL LEVELS, WHERE THEY WON THE WAR 15:51:45 THIS CAUSES COSMOLOGISTS TO LOOK MORE CLOSELY AT UPPER LEVELS. TENTACLES DISCOVERED. STOP LOOKING. 15:51:52 VERY CAREFULLY. 15:51:56 :D 15:53:05 REPLACEMENT OF ORGANELLES BY COMPUTERS CAUSES NEW FUNDAMENTAL THEORY OF "ACCOUNTING" 15:53:57 AS MILLENNIA PASS, ORIGINAL TAX THEORY FORGOTTEN, TAXES ARE NOW CONSIDERED AN EMERGENT PROPERTY OF ACCOUNTING 15:54:04 ALL CAPS HEADLINES INCLUDING COMPUTERS 15:54:46 PEOPLE ARE VAGUELY AWARE THAT SOMETHING DISTURBING EMERGES FROM TAXES. NEW ATTEMPT TO OUTLAW TAXES. MUCH CARNAGE. 15:55:25 :D 15:55:38 oerjan: how long until management? 15:56:09 PHILOSOPHY CLAIMS THAT TAXES MANAGE THEMSELVES, AS LONG AS YOU DON'T LOOK TOO CLOSELY. 15:56:17 :D 15:57:31 AN ATTEMPT TO CREATE A UNIFIED THEORY OF THE UNIVERSE AT ALL LEVELS IS PUBLISHED 15:57:53 MAIN RESULT IS A POPULAR FLASH GAME ABOUT FIGHTING TENTACLED MONSTERS 15:58:28 :DDD 15:58:58 oerjan: ^D SAVE STATE; SHUTDOWN 15:59:04 *BURP* 15:59:28 * ais523 merges the AnMaster branch of C-INTERCAL with the mainline 16:11:41 08:47:31 Sometime this week, I will have an esoteric OO programming language ... because the world needs one (other than Java ahaha) 16:11:44 - 2005 16:12:10 ORK? 16:13:06 HOOOORK 16:13:10 bork bork 16:14:53 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 16:22:58 ais523, nice 16:23:23 ais523: ork yes 16:23:35 AnMaster: the build still needs a bit of tweaking to get the IFFI stuff working 16:23:46 but I didn't mind merging that into mainline because mainline failed at that before 16:24:08 ais523, well yes I didn't try to integrated it into automess 16:24:34 I don't blame you 16:29:19 hmm 16:29:22 what's english's medium word length? 16:29:32 5? 16:29:56 What do you mean by that, ehird? 16:30:04 Medium world length. 16:30:18 Mean length as used in sentence, or mean length using every word in the language? 16:30:47 Idunno 16:31:55 * ehird considers saying fuck it to the modern invention of hypertext and instead publish articles as .txt <-- on gopher 16:32:00 :D 16:32:05 AnMaster: Asztal already said that 16:32:07 could you stop being optbot? 16:32:14 ehird, didn't know he did 16:32:25 .txt is actually a pretty good format 16:32:26 few lines after 16:32:39 Slereah_: which .txt? 16:32:42 it's pretty nonportable 16:32:58 Is it? 16:33:00 k, well I don't feel well, just had a bleeding nose 16:33:01 ... 16:33:05 text/plain? 16:33:06 Never had any problem opening any txt 16:33:07 well, * 16:33:10 Slereah_: try opening a .txt file created with UNIX on Notepad 16:33:21 there are two main incompatibilities 16:33:23 ais523 : Give me one, then 16:33:24 ais523, that works fine, but may not do what you want 16:33:26 line endings, and character encodings 16:33:27 Because I don't have any 16:33:36 ok, I'll dig one up and send it to you 16:33:49 Owait, you mean the ones with the squares for line feed? 16:34:10 ais523, I did manage to get windows to read utf8 once, not sure how 16:34:12 yes 16:34:14 think it was notepad even 16:34:15 Ah yes 16:34:19 AnMaster: Notepad can read UTF8 16:34:19 it does by default 16:34:23 I usually open them with wordpad 16:34:28 it's just it tries to detect the format by default 16:34:30 ais523, well by default it tries UTF16 16:34:30 \n is the One True Newline. 16:34:31 and sometimes gets it wrong 16:34:43 AnMaster: it doesn't try anything in particular by default, its default is to guess 16:34:48 ehird iirc mac (used to?) use \r only? 16:34:49 and its guessing algorithm used to be pretty bad 16:34:50 What does Unix use for newline? 16:34:52 IIRC it's better now 16:34:54 Slereah_, LF 16:34:55 Slereah_: ASCII 10 16:34:58 AnMaster: os 9 and previously 16:34:58 normally represented as \n 16:35:01 i.e, dinosaur 16:35:06 ehird: \n is not necessarily ascii 10 16:35:07 Mac OS Classic used ASCII 13 16:35:10 ehird, yes I have such a mac somewhere 16:35:12 ew 16:35:12 oerjan: yeah yeah yeah :P 16:35:16 oerjan: \n is ASCII 10 on UNIX, though 16:35:20 not in C 16:35:23 ehird, first model ibook, OS 8 iirc 16:35:26 in C it's implementation-defined 16:35:29 ehird: yes 16:35:42 it's defined to 10 on nearly all modern systems though, even Windows 16:35:47 because it's defined as a single character 16:36:05 ais523, really? so what does putchar('\n'); do on windows? 16:36:06 Does Mac OS 9 have \n as 13, I wonder? 16:36:16 AnMaster: it depends on whether the file's in text mode or binary mode 16:36:29 putchar('\n') and putchar(10) both write \r\n to a text-mode file 16:36:33 and \n to a binary-mode file 16:36:39 ais523, well if you really really want it I could find that old mac and fire up MPW on it (Macintosh Programmer Workshop) 16:36:53 AnMaster: probably Googling would find me the answer faster 16:37:02 ais523, most likely 16:39:05 ais523, hm what about mmap()ed files? iirc windows have something like it but with some weird name, like MapFileInMemoryExW(page_handle, file_handle, handle_handle, other_handle, &some_struct, &some_other_struct); 16:39:10 or whatever 16:39:26 it's almost certainly got an HWIN in there somewhere too 16:39:37 ais523, isn't that for gui stuff? 16:39:51 I mean why would mapping a file need a window handle? 16:40:02 even MS can't be *THAT* silly 16:40:12 or can they? 16:43:11 # cat "/usr/share/man/leep .25000" 16:43:11 dc(1) dc(1) 16:43:12 wtf 16:43:21 it is a formatted copy of the dc man page 16:43:25 that makes 0 sense 16:43:40 from 2005 16:43:47 according to mtime 16:43:49 that'd be CreateMapping() and MapViewOfFile() or so 16:43:54 no window handle though 16:43:59 flexo, you forgot the Ex 16:44:06 possibly 16:44:17 * AnMaster sticks with the simple POSIX API 16:44:33 flexo, I assume the first returns a handle? 16:44:38 ofcourse 16:44:43 sigh 16:44:50 what is wrong with a pointer 16:44:56 for something that is mapped in memory 16:45:07 well 16:45:11 I mean, if you want to use the mapping you need to know the base pointer 16:45:13 a mapping is not yet mapped in memory 16:45:20 why not make malloc() return a handle instead? 16:45:25 it's just a .. weird.. object .. thingie.. with which you can build a mapping :) 16:45:42 flexo, can you use it for anything else? 16:45:53 good question 16:45:55 i never did 16:46:13 flexo, well if not it seems like it would have been smarter to combine them into one single call 16:46:46 flexo, do you load the file with the first one or? 16:46:50 ah 16:46:53 it's actually CreateFileMapping 16:47:06 wait... "CreateFileMapping" and then "MapViewOfFile"? 16:47:29 that would be rather odd 16:47:35 yes 16:47:54 as i read msdn i think the point is that you can use a file mapping for shm 16:48:01 which is not really a file mapping 16:48:07 because it has nothing to do with files 16:48:10 but it can be named 16:48:21 shm_open() on *nix I think 16:48:21 i suppose that's the reason i thought the API was called CreateMapping 16:48:24 though I never used it 16:48:42 * AnMaster enters man 7 shm_overview 16:48:54 and that takes much less time to load than MSDN! 16:49:37 hm. nope. i was wrong. 16:49:42 i have no idea what this madness is about 16:49:42 oh? 16:49:48 void *mmap(void *addr, size_t length, int prot, int flags, 16:49:48 int fd, off_t offset); 16:49:48 int munmap(void *addr, size_t length); 16:49:53 quite a lot of args yes 16:49:57 a bit too many IMO 16:50:03 flexo: absolutely everything in Windows requires a window handle, it seems 16:50:05 it seems to only way to get a pointer from a filemapping is to actually call MapViewOfFile 16:50:09 IIRC even thread creation does 16:50:12 although I might be wrong on that 16:50:14 well for mmap() you want to leave the first one as NULL usually 16:50:19 ais523: no. 16:50:20 unless you are doing something VERY weird 16:50:32 AnMaster: you mean fun 16:50:57 flexo, well I can't see any reason for a userland program to need to mmap() to a specific address in it's address space 16:51:03 simply no reason at all 16:51:05 well 16:51:08 i'll give you an example 16:51:14 and mmap() isn't used *inside* kernel 16:51:19 where there _are_ reasons 16:51:26 oh, no, that was a fun mprotect() example. well. another example. 16:51:28 like DMA and what not 16:51:31 no no 16:51:34 there are *fun* examples 16:51:43 jitfunge uses a fixed-address mmap. 16:52:06 ah yes, MINE 16:52:09 (mine is not an emulator) 16:52:15 a MenuetOS compatibility wrapper i wrote for linux 16:52:15 fizzie, that is basically unportable, because it is very hard to know what might be free. Also why would you need it to a specific address? 16:52:33 iirc menuet os binaries expect to be loaded at 0x00000000 16:52:34 flexo, hm? 16:52:44 so you really need to map them there 16:53:11 also needed to adjust the segment registers, trap segfaults, scan for the INT instructions... 16:53:15 that was fun. 16:53:22 flexo, hm if you want to do virtualization you will probably end up with a kernel module anyway? 16:53:29 but you don't need to 16:53:34 wine works fine in userspace too 16:53:49 flexo, that is because wine doesn't do that, wine just emulates the API 16:53:50 AnMaster: It's for the stack; it's mmaped to a suitably "very far out" address so that it's more likely it can grow without hitting anything else. It does fall back to a non-fixed-address call if it fails, though. 16:53:59 AnMaster: no, wine does a lot of mmap() magic 16:54:10 the wine-loader does 16:54:25 flexo, well why would it need to? iirc *.dll are relocatable 16:54:34 not PIC though 16:55:03 hm. 16:55:05 well, they are 16:55:25 but i assume there are lots of apps that expect the memory layout to be the win32 one 16:55:35 flexo, also this is very likely to break because position of *.so like libc.so are (in recent linux kernels at least) placed randomly 16:55:37 for security 16:55:43 The executables themselves aren't position-independent either. 16:56:01 AnMaster: yes, these changes have always caused trouble for wine 16:56:50 flexo, well I think they only have themselves to blame for that 16:56:54 i think wine-loaded actually remaps the libraries as a workaround today 16:56:57 *loader 16:57:10 AnMaster: huh? 16:57:11 err, really? Can you do that? 16:57:14 why not? 16:57:33 as long as you do it before any actual code is run there should be no problem 16:57:37 flexo, " flexo, well I think they only have themselves to blame for that AnMaster: huh?" <-- sounds like depending on undocumented behaviour to me 16:57:40 The address space layout randomization things also do not put things completely randomly; there's some bits of entropy there, but it's not completely random. 16:58:01 AnMaster: not really. many aspects of the win32 memory layout are clearly defined. 16:58:02 flexo, you would have to do it in the start-up code before main or such? 16:58:10 AnMaster: ofcourse 16:58:18 flexo, well I mean on linux, since it needs to deal with the way linux works 16:58:33 uhh, but it's a windows app 16:58:34 and relying on libc not being randomized would be stupid 16:58:50 ehird, sure but wine itself is a linux elf binary, that runs windows apps 16:58:51 AnMaster: yea well - the wine loading process if ofcourse one great hack 16:58:55 but it works for a hell lot of applications 16:59:03 ehird, which was the thing we were talking about 16:59:38 ah, i remember one example why we need our own memory layout 16:59:40 flexo, just doing cat /proc/self/maps shows that libc is loaded at widely different locations between different runs 16:59:54 sometimes even outside 32-bit address space (this is amd64) 16:59:56 in 9x times there is this "shared kernel memory" thing where all processes can read from 17:00:18 so it would need to not link libc 17:00:22 which would be quite a pain 17:00:48 at 0x7e00000000 or something like that 17:00:54 storing stuff like the tick counter 17:01:07 those apps would break if a lib happened to be loaded there 17:01:40 flexo, hm if you need to load at 0x0 you said, then how will you do that for mmap()? At least on x86 NULL == 0x0, and passing NULL as first parameter to mmap is defined to mean that the application don't care where the mapping is placed 17:01:54 (disclaimer: i'm not 100% sure if wine actually implements that memory area, i think i filed a patch once, but i remember discussions about it. had nothing todo with memory layout however :) 17:02:03 There are just 8 bits of randomness in mmap() call results on a 32-bit Linux system. 28 bits on 64-bit. 17:02:27 14:29:34 I think I want a befunge variant with function calls (simple define-function-with-integer-name, call-function-n and return would suffice, although I'm not sure if there should be a way of having more than a single return value) and perhaps with a _really_ simple module system (load-a-file, which could export a set of functions). 17:02:29 14:29:53 I guess it'd be cheatey and unbefungey, but that'd be a language one could actually use for real-world applications. 17:02:36 AnMaster: uhm. true. but i'm 100% certain that it's possible to map from 0 on 17:02:43 flexo, how? 17:02:44 maybe via a flag or something? 17:02:50 or the syscall api is different? 17:03:00 actually wine does this too 17:03:02 MAP_FIXED maybe? 17:03:17 when you run a 16bit binary it maps the first 1mb 17:03:24 (for obvious reasons) 17:03:31 MAP_FIXED 17:03:32 Don't interpret start as a hint: place the mapping at exactly 17:03:32 that address. 17:03:35 looks that way? 17:03:47 probably it means that 0x0 get a different meaning yes 17:04:14 ehird: I guess fungot sort-of means I don't need "befunge for functions" for "real-world" applications; but still. 17:04:15 fizzie: sjamaan says: you damned fool. a fool who knows he is headed towards his destruction. but nevertheless, he eventually obtained them, and accessed them. suppose they'd add something to a very credible thing? 17:04:21 ofcourse NULL pointer accesses would no longer be caught :) 17:04:34 fizzie: link to fungot source? 17:04:35 ehird: aside from just feeling dirty. the core elements are based on the context. 17:04:36 :DD 17:04:37 wanna fun it 17:04:39 run 17:04:44 fizzie, about those 8 bits... hm? how many bits are locked due to needing to map at start of a page? 17:04:54 can't be the other 24... 17:05:16 AnMaster: it randomizes the 8 bits just above PAGE_SHIFT. 17:05:19 a few bits sure, but not all of those, and you might have a few reserved at top and bottom 17:05:36 fizzie, what is PAGE_SHIFT for? and where is it defined/documented 17:06:13 PAGE_SHIFT is something like log2(page size); -- I mean, that's what I'd expect. Haven't grepped. 17:06:35 !help 17:06:39 I'm just reading arch/x86/mm/mmap.c:mmap_rnd for this. 17:06:42 ^help 17:06:43 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 17:06:47 ^show 17:06:47 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help 17:06:50 ^source 17:06:50 http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 17:06:54 ehird: there you go 17:07:10 The comment there says: 17:07:12 * 8 bits of randomness in 32bit mmaps, 20 address space bits 17:07:12 * 28 bits of randomness in 64bit mmaps, 40 address space bits 17:07:13 fizzie: you should get fungot to respond to CTCP SOURCE 17:07:14 ais523: in that respect it is a list 17:07:42 now to figure out where to change its name 17:07:46 ais523: It should maybe also respond to CTCP VERSION, just in case freenode's automagical version-checker collects some hidden statistics. 17:07:56 fizzie, hm indeed 17:07:59 ehird: You can change the nickname in the loader. 17:08:08 I used to respond to Freenode's CTCP VERSION when I was using telnet by hnad 17:08:09 *hand 17:08:12 although it took me ages 17:08:12 ehird: Realname and username are the first occurance of "fungot" in the actual source. 17:08:12 fizzie: they are not the brightest of bots 17:08:16 * ehird looks for loader 17:08:29 ais523, how did you input the \1? 17:08:37 control-A 17:08:38 I think I have some version of the loader as fungot-load-freenode.b98 in the same directory. 17:08:38 fizzie: so set just affects a variable, while the sml examples implement their own regular expression library 17:08:40 aha 17:08:41 how else? 17:08:46 ais523, no idea 17:08:53 stdin tends to echo control codes if they don't mean anything to it 17:09:07 Forbidden 17:09:07 You don't have permission to access /~fis/fungot-load-freenode.b98 on this server. 17:09:08 "control-A A A", because you happened to be inside two nested screens. :p 17:09:08 ehird: that's not the problem of separate compilation modular interface abstraction, it has fnord that's probably not much 17:09:13 http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot-load-freenode.b98.txt 17:09:13 ehird: how can anmaster do that? 17:09:17 he can't 17:09:19 what? 17:09:21 do what? 17:09:31 * ehird saves as rungot 17:09:34 geddit 17:09:34 ehird, ? 17:09:35 AnMaster: fungot said that, so it's probably out of context 17:09:35 ais523: have your processor just accept sequences of parameters, like a bunny rabbit." 17:09:39 AnMaster: it's fungot. 17:09:39 well 17:09:39 ehird: scheme48's module system that the code of the progrm itself or portions of it). it doesn't know. 17:09:40 ramblings. 17:09:44 hm 17:10:07 ais523, it is a markov chain so probably didn't exist at all 17:10:15 any original in that form I mean 17:10:16 well, yes 17:10:30 although it could be, its sufficiently short to be likely to be verbatim 17:10:35 ehird: You might need to create some files there too, maybe. 17:11:15 And incidentally, how does a bunny rabbit accept sequences of parameters? 17:11:31 very evilly 17:11:37 fizzie, sure you aren't fungot? 17:11:38 AnMaster: i tried both gambit 4b13 and gambit 4b15, and surprisingly, the picture that won fnord ascii art contest wasn't even ascii art. 17:11:56 i think i broke it 17:12:05 fungot, obviously it was chess, not ASCII art... 17:12:05 AnMaster: non matching blocks? we use those? just because of how heavily they're used, such as a macro 17:12:22 though 4b13 makes no sense for chess 17:12:37 nor anything else I know 17:13:13 If you're interested, it was wired's (the magazine, I assume) ascii art contest. 17:13:23 v"ehird!n=ehird@eso-std.org"0< 17:13:26 is that wrong? 17:13:38 fizzie, what did it had to do with chess? 17:13:39 Make sure the < matches the v above. 17:13:56 fizzie, I assume he can figure that out himself 17:14:02 nope 17:14:04 I didn't 17:14:11 -!- gunfot has joined. 17:14:12 AnMaster: Gambit's a Scheme implementation; 4b13 and 4b15 are version numbers. 17:14:18 ^help 17:14:18 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 17:14:24 ehird, changed prefix? 17:14:25 wonder what prefix gunfot's on 17:14:35 gunfot: yo man 17:14:37 -!- gunfot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:14:41 The prefix is in the loader too. 17:14:45 ehird, no data file loaded? 17:14:47 Command character: 17:14:47 v ^' < 17:14:57 What would that be then? 17:14:59 oh 17:15:01 ' is a character 17:15:12 ehird, ' means read next char as string 17:15:18 kind of 17:15:32 fizzie: how do I get a data file thenz 17:15:40 >'a is same as >"a" 17:15:52 AnMaster: even with respect to tick count/ 17:15:59 ais523, no 17:16:01 I thought 'a took one tick altogether 17:16:06 ais523, and yes 17:16:08 iirc 17:16:14 whereas "a" is 3 17:16:20 ehird: Just define the commands you like, and then use *save, where * is your command character. It should create one there. Although you may need to have a subdirectory "data" in the current directory you're running it in. 17:16:27 ais523, yes but fungot isn't using t, at least not in the loader 17:16:28 AnMaster: mainly, yes. i see a xmlrpc lib for chicken and it wants to 17:16:34 and last I looked not anywhere else either 17:16:37 fizzie: Right, but how come it isn't working 17:16:59 ehird, "help" is not built in, it is defined as a command 17:17:01 ^show help 17:17:02 (^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool)S 17:17:03 ehird: The crash was probably because it tried to respond with the babbling; the babbling needs all those other files. 17:17:04 hm? 17:17:08 see 17:17:13 it is defined in underload 17:17:21 hmm 17:17:22 it won't join 17:17:25 And yes, it won't have a "help" command by default. But the ^def and ^show and such should work. 17:17:35 RAW >>> :ehird!n=ehird@eso-std.org PRIVMSG gunfot :^raw JOIN #esoteric <<< 17:17:39 fizzie, what are the owner only commands now again? 17:17:46 ehird: Did you change the prefix? 17:17:50 Oh. 17:17:50 duh. 17:18:09 -!- gunfot has joined. 17:18:14 AnMaster: There's at least ^code, ^reload, ^save, ^ignore, ^raw. 17:18:16 \ul (A)S 17:18:16 A 17:18:22 \bf ,[.,]!yo 17:18:22 yo 17:18:24 why "gunfot"? 17:18:25 ^.^ 17:18:27 AnMaster: why not 17:18:32 spoonerism 17:18:32 * oerjan lols at today's http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/ 17:18:35 ehird, it isn't even fungot backwards 17:18:35 but not an intersting one 17:18:35 AnMaster: darcs is slow and underfeatured. ok. 17:18:40 it's a spoonerism 17:18:46 err 17:18:46 fungot: lol, hear hear 17:18:47 ehird: let me check that real quick. it should not loop indefinitely... that is a very model of propriety and good manners. the man's a smegging rock star. this star should be of sufficient mass to go supernova, generating large amounts of breaks for sanity's sake. 17:18:48 * AnMaster googles 17:18:54 gunfot: 17:19:22 oerjan: they're all 404s, intentional? 17:19:24 \ul (test)S 17:19:24 test 17:19:49 ehird, what interpreter? 17:20:01 RC/Funge version 0.000000001 alpha. 17:20:08 ehird, really? why? 17:20:10 With 1000 extra lines of code to accellerate the mobmobile. 17:20:21 Also, 5 antifingerprints that destroy matter. 17:20:35 also I see you are being sarcastic, but I'm not in the mood for that 17:20:46 hm 17:20:58 not in the mood, well sorry, but this is a public channel and you did ask me a question. 17:21:00 fizzie, idea: a built in ^handprint? 17:21:12 ^code 17:21:15 ehird, and care to answer it correctly? 17:21:17 ^code ) 17:21:20 oh 17:21:21 \code ) 17:21:26 oh my 17:21:27 Hmm, it's still going. 17:21:31 \ul (im ok) 17:21:32 \ul (im ok)S 17:21:34 The 'code' command is very brittle. 17:21:35 Ok, maybe not 17:21:38 -!- gunfot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:21:48 fizzie, I can imagine that 17:21:53 \code @ 17:22:01 it isn't connected... 17:22:03 ehird: it isn't running atm 17:22:05 it was 17:22:07 in /msg 17:22:07 :P 17:22:21 ehird, well it doesn't read channel if not joined 17:22:24 It just loads SUBR, adds a "R" instruction at the end of the line, and jumps to the beginning. 17:22:27 it was a mistake. 17:22:37 ehird: yes 17:22:38 fizzie, you have to jump back yourself? 17:22:39 -!- gunfot has joined. 17:22:41 \ul ((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:41 ^ul ((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:41 \ul ((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:42 ^ul ((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:42 \ul ((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:42 ^ul ((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:42 \ul ((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:42 ^ul ((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:42 \ul ((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:42 ^ul ((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:42 \ul ((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:42 ^ul ((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:42 \ul ((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:44 ^ul ((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:44 \ul ((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:45 argh 17:22:46 ^ul ((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:46 \ul ((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:48 ^ul ((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:48 \ul ((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:50 hee 17:22:50 ^ul ((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:50 \ul ((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:52 ^ul ((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:52 \ul ((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:53 fizzie, ignore or something? 17:22:53 the actual content is the annotation 17:22:54 ^ul ((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:54 \ul ((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:54 thanks ais523 17:22:55 :) 17:22:56 ^ul ((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:56 \ul ((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:58 ^ul ((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:22:58 \ul ((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:23:00 ^ul ((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:23:00 \ul ((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:23:01 gotta love botloops 17:23:02 -!- fungot has left (?). 17:23:02 ^ul ((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 17:23:03 ^ignore gunfot 17:23:03 \code @ 17:23:03 -!- gunfot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:23:08 Sorry, I was the slow. 17:23:09 ais523: you can't control the ignore list... 17:23:12 ais523, isn't it owner only? 17:23:16 probably 17:23:21 I wanted to do a true multiquine, anyway 17:23:30 -!- fungot has joined. 17:23:31 yes 17:23:34 that was my original intention 17:23:36 ^ignore 17:23:36 ^(thutubot|optbot|gunfot)! 17:23:48 fizzie, what does the ! at the end mean? 17:23:49 fizzie: probably for the best 17:23:53 That's the current ignore "list"; actually it's just a single regex. 17:23:57 oh wait 17:23:58 fizzie: Sheesh, you're no fun. 17:23:58 AnMaster: it's the ! in an IRC username 17:24:03 nick!user@host 17:24:11 I'll just start two then,. 17:24:11 right 17:24:17 fizzie: you should probably add bsmnt_bot to that 17:24:21 Yes, it's matched against that prefix. And I don't think that loop was very fun either. 17:24:27 ehird, why do you want to spam? 17:24:31 as we had fungot/bsmnt_bot loops a while back 17:24:31 ais523: i worked at until bankruptcy 7 times in 3 states. currently is over 120,000 in debt." 17:24:43 ^style 17:24:44 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 17:24:44 fizzie: I think it's fun to set up such loops, but not to spam the channel with them 17:24:56 with two alert bot operators, I expected one of htem to quit it pretty quickly 17:24:57 ^ignore ^(thutubot|optbot|gunfot|bsmnt_bot)! 17:24:57 OK. 17:25:27 -!- gunfot has joined. 17:25:31 I would like to see a N-bot loop, with N>2, though. Hopefully involving more than one language, also. 17:25:32 -!- tofnug has joined. 17:25:41 gunfot, meet tofnug. tofnug, meet gunfot. 17:25:47 fizzie: They are happy to converse with bsmnt_bot. 17:25:51 |ignore 17:25:57 \ignore 17:25:59 Eh. 17:26:01 \ul (a)S 17:26:01 a 17:26:03 |ul (a)S 17:26:03 a 17:26:07 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie. 17:26:16 well, that's one way to stop a botloop 17:26:27 (I'm just preparing for bot-loop-silenzation if necessary, yes.) 17:26:37 fizzie: I will stop them. 17:26:40 fizzie :) 17:26:41 But writing them is fun. 17:26:45 fizzie: maybe you should add loop-breaking code to ^ul and ^bf, the same way as you have done to name-mention-responding 17:26:47 I think 3-5 seconds is OK. 17:26:52 Beyond that, I'll kill. 17:27:03 ^source 17:27:03 http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 17:27:07 I actually control all of {gunfot,tofnug,bsmnt_bot}, heh. 17:27:14 come to think of it, /mode +m is the most efficient way to stop a botloop 17:27:18 and doesn't involve kicking anyone 17:27:22 ehird: the actual content is the annotation 17:27:26 ehird: bsmnt_bot is yours? 17:27:37 I mean, I know who wrote it 17:27:38 no, it's bsmntbombdoods, but it runs on rutian 17:27:40 but it's on your server? 17:27:42 yes 17:27:45 since a few days ago 17:27:46 Yes, I should have the same loop-detection for all input, not just the babbling. I'm not quite sure why I don't. 17:27:47 he put it up 17:27:51 whois it 17:27:58 (note to self: stop typing with window scrolled back) 17:29:19 also, anyone can stop bsmnt_bot 17:29:28 ~exec bot.raw("QUIT") 17:29:28 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit. 17:29:31 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 17:29:36 sure they can. 17:29:36 oerjan: But only you can stop forest fires. 17:29:37 :-) 17:29:41 but it comes right back 17:29:46 fizzie, issue, I tried last fungot, odd but it didn't load 17:29:47 AnMaster: are you making to gambit's web server instead of the channels on irc? i would have to avoid multimedia altogether then passing in on to y. 17:29:51 that's usually enough 17:30:06 AnMaster: Odd. What did it do, instead? 17:30:12 fizzie, tracing atm 17:30:35 fizzie, it didn't output anything and didn't connect I know 17:30:38 it is busy running however 17:30:49 fizzie, loop it seems 17:31:09 fizzie, http://rafb.net/p/3iAYUs12.html 17:31:11 A "corrupted" (read: not exactly what fungot expects) fungot.dat file should cause a sensible error message, at least. 17:31:11 fizzie: for insulting mcedit, i know to that :) what is a multiway system?!? awesome. 17:31:20 fizzie: i really cannot remember the last time i made fire in a forest. 17:31:22 fizzie, changed format recently? 17:31:55 AnMaster: Last time when I added the underload support. I assume x and y are zero-based? 17:32:05 fizzie, yes 17:32:14 Well, I guess they'd have to be, since that's what the spec says. 17:32:16 fizzie, as in funge coords, not file editor coords 17:32:33 so yes you need to offset for line number/column number 17:32:39 fungot.b98 is also loaded at y=100. 17:32:39 fizzie: it's not so much, whereas almost no other ' fnord do fnord output is not that that is that same exact jump 17:32:54 fizzie, well right, file loading works says mycology 17:33:17 fizzie, and it is http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt right? 17:33:20 AnMaster: i'm currently quite happy with most of what i've said about configure.ac.' you gave it an array. every element of a list are stored? 17:33:24 saved without .txt 17:33:39 $ md5sum fungot.b98 17:33:39 3af30bb6537de532d2f8ea07193a177e fungot.b98 17:33:39 AnMaster: i'd distinguish two kinds of fnord 17:33:39 AnMaster: don't you? yes offby1 i remember everything failing miserably :-p) 17:33:39 * oerjan lols at today's http://www.mezzacotta.net/owls/ too 17:33:40 AnMaster: Yes. Well, those coordinates are in the data/fungot.dat loading code. If you don't have much in your fungot.dat, you can just remove it. An empty file it should ignore. 17:33:41 fizzie: insofar as now i can impress them with your connections to the same thing 17:33:59 fizzie, the dat file is just 10 newlines 17:34:13 what's in fungot.dat? 17:34:13 ais523: fibonacci heaps? :) so i can say. and sometimes i miscount then 17:34:25 AnMaster: Well... try without any file; I think that worked for ehird. 17:34:40 fizzie, ok now it loads 17:34:43 ais523: The ten ^str strings, and all ^def-defined commands. I don't think there's anything else. 17:34:46 but does this mean it won't load after save 17:35:02 The format ^save writes should at least be correct. 17:35:06 ] 17:35:15 Although you might want to define a single command, just in case it gets confused. 17:35:21 -!- testthingy has joined. 17:35:40 17:33 AnMaster: i'd distinguish two kinds of fnord 17:35:41 ehird: yes twb, thanks to a grand total of two and representing 17:35:42 do it 17:36:00 %ignore ^(thutubot|optbot|fungot|gunfot|tofnug)! 17:36:00 OK. 17:36:01 AnMaster: well, i gather, they are signed and fnord, and i now have a fnord? 17:36:13 %ignore ^(thutubot|optbot|fungot|gunfot|tofnug|bsmnt_bot)! 17:36:14 OK. 17:36:14 AnMaster: generally you only want to support artists who are supporting the riaa 17:36:17 %save 17:36:17 OK. 17:36:26 fungot, wtf 17:36:27 AnMaster: depends on your job... it doesn't do anything to strip out the bf for it 17:36:42 Oh, and the ignore regexp is not saved in fungot.dat. It's on my TODO list. 17:36:43 fizzie: um, i mean 17:36:46 so who here has used gafyd 17:36:49 apart from Asztal 17:36:53 ^show 17:36:53 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help 17:36:58 %show 17:37:05 ^help 17:37:05 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 17:37:08 17:36 AnMaster: generally you only want to support artists who are supporting the riaa 17:37:08 ehird: well i fnord care about the x86, &c., are often upcased. we got snow. 17:37:09 i lolled 17:37:33 %def help ul (% ; %def ; %show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; %str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; %style [style]; %bool)S 17:37:33 Defined. 17:37:36 %help 17:37:36 % ; %def ; %show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; %str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; %style [style]; %bool 17:37:42 hm ok 17:37:48 %save 17:37:48 OK. 17:37:57 ehird, yes I agree 17:38:09 well, Asztal: why is the mail for the free one 2.757272164 GB as opposed to gmail's 7GB? 17:38:16 maybe I should redirect email to gmail instead 17:38:18 The file .dat format is horribly inefficient, but... 17:38:34 ehird, err what mail for free? 17:38:43 google apps for your domain 17:38:46 ah 17:38:57 it's gmail and other google stuff, but for a custom domain 17:39:18 [i'm considering it because, well, i don't want to run my own mail server.] 17:39:27 ehird, will you ever end up using those ~2.76 GB for mail? 17:39:36 Well... 17:39:37 You are currently using 742MB (10%) of your 7282MB. 17:39:38 ehird, also setting up qmail is easy 17:39:39 :P 17:39:42 I've had this account since 2006. 17:39:53 So, not in the near future, but over the years, yes I will. 17:40:06 ehird, wow... I had my account since 2006 too and I only use around 90 MB so far 17:40:38 but of course, I use other mail services too 17:40:41 AnMaster: The 18,030 messages from Agora count for about 86MB of that. 17:40:46 But my inbox is the largest, 322 MB. 17:40:52 "You are currently using 0 MB (0%) of your 7282 MB " 17:41:05 I'm not sure when that account was created. 17:41:07 fizzie: but you don't use gmail, do you? :P 17:41:13 ok that is one thing I dislike... why can't they have proper dirs, instead of just views? 17:41:31 AnMaster: you mean, gmail? 17:41:32 they do 17:41:33 ehird: Well, no. I have three messages in there. 17:41:34 yes 17:41:44 AnMaster: just remove it from the inbox in the filter 17:41:49 that's what I do 17:41:54 i only see agora mail if I click agora. 17:42:01 (or All Mail, but All Mail isn't very useful anyway) 17:42:03 ehird, oh? just "inbox" and "all mail", "trash" and "spam" iirc, the rest means you can still see it in "all mail" 17:42:22 here's one of my agora filters: 17:42:29 Matches: to:(agora-business@agoranomic.org) 17:42:29 Do this: Skip Inbox, Apply label "Agora" 17:42:36 ehird, anyway I use imap to access gmail 17:42:40 yep 17:42:41 doesn't work very well IMO 17:42:42 works fine 17:42:47 I use mail.app with imap and gmail 17:42:50 it represents the labels as folders 17:42:50 hm 17:43:54 Wow, the pay version of google apps is $50/user/year. 17:44:05 Although that gets you 25 GB per mail account, which is...excessive. 17:44:19 I know people who have been subscribed to like 100 mailing lists since 1998 and only have 10GB of mail 17:44:47 it depends on which 100 mailing lists 17:44:53 ais523: active ones. 17:45:16 * AnMaster likes that Swedish public service radio publish many of the programs as mp3 on their website and don't seem to ever remove them 17:45:28 I have good reason to outsource disk-spacey things, anyway, I only have 10GB on rutian. 17:45:29 there is at least 2 years backlog there 17:46:08 "only"? 17:46:08 ehird, it is a vps, can't you just hit a button to upgrade? 17:46:14 AnMaster: yes, but that costs more 17:46:16 ais523: :-) 17:46:22 ais523, you can't fit flightgear scenery into that 17:46:23 AnMaster: Yes but 17:46:36 It's $20/mo for 256MB of ram, 10GB storage, 100GB of mandwidth 17:46:39 and I host a mirror for fg scenery :) 17:46:40 the next one up is _$38/mo_ 17:46:48 512MB ram, 20GB storage, 200GB bandwidth 17:47:02 so yeah, $18 more is a bit steep 17:47:17 ehird, hm the dedi is $50/month and it has 2x150 GB disks 17:47:33 $50/month is not really reasonable for me I'm afraid 17:47:39 hm ok 17:47:43 also 17:47:43 Transfer0.93GB of 100GB1 (0.33 in / 0.61 out) 17:47:45 XD 17:47:47 ehird, I split the cost with another person 17:47:51 so $25 each 17:48:06 The only time I ever came close to maxing out my bandwidth was when I was hosting a mirror of the ICFP 08 iso. 17:48:15 But that was 512MB, IIRC 17:48:25 it got to like 90GB then the monthly rollover happened 17:48:29 hm I have unmetered 100 mbps 17:48:31 ehird: it's about 700MB 17:48:37 because it's an ISO of a CD 17:48:45 OK 17:48:52 ais523, err, you can have a smaller iso 17:48:56 that doesn't fill all the cd 17:49:01 it was a linux distro 17:49:02 so 17:49:02 I suppose so 17:49:16 ais523, or why is the "boot-only.iso" for freebsd around 100 MB iirc 17:49:21 ok 17:49:30 - Email Archiving, powered by Postini 17:49:30 90-day message recovery, can be extended 17:49:35 wonder why that's just for the premier one 17:49:39 i mean, gmail has archiving, right? 17:49:47 - SSL enforcement for secure HTTPS access 17:49:48 er 17:49:54 is that fancy words for "redirects http to https"? 17:49:54 err isn't gmail https? 17:50:03 AnMaster: yeah 17:50:08 but 17:50:10 actually it is a setting 17:50:12 it degrades to http for non-supporting clients 17:50:13 for gmail 17:50:13 i think 17:50:15 ah 17:50:16 right 17:50:18 this'll force https i guess 17:50:19 XD 17:50:21 - 99.9% Gmail, Google Calendar and Google Talk uptime SLA** 17:50:25 well so does gmail 17:50:26 geez, charging for that? 17:50:29 if you turn on that setting 17:50:29 what ever happened to 5-nines :P 17:50:56 - 99.9% Gmail, Google Calendar and Google Talk uptime SLA** <-- what on earth does that mean? 99.9% of google's uptime? 17:51:12 it means that if you pay them $50/user/year they guarantee to be up 99.9% of the time 17:51:19 which is _crap_ 17:51:25 compare to amazon which has 99.99999% 17:51:34 is that for for the google domain hosting thingy? 17:51:35 or what? 17:51:41 yes 17:51:43 "premier" edition 17:51:47 instead of the free standard one 17:51:49 - Email Archiving, powered by Postini <-- hm? 17:51:55 AnMaster: yeah I don't know either 17:51:56 what is postini? 17:51:59 ah 17:52:01 right 17:52:13 anyway, I'll just back up email locally every now and then, I think 17:52:18 thought "ehird is looking at some other service, called postini" 17:52:21 I thought* 17:52:36 using half my storage? download all messages to disk over a few nights, delete everything from gmail 17:53:00 ehird: /seven/ nines, for Amazon? 17:53:04 that's insane 17:53:12 ehird, doesn't gmail space continue to grow still? 17:53:16 or have it stopped? 17:53:30 ais523: err, no, that's 5 nines 17:53:32 I remember the counter for current space was SO hyped a few years ago 17:53:33 "postini" is Finnish for "my mail"; "posti" is the noun, and the "-ni" part is the first-person singular possessive suffix. 17:53:36 the number of nines means the 9s after the decimal point, ais523 17:53:40 I don't think that has anything to do with the name, though. 17:54:35 ehird: it means altogether, doesn't it? 17:54:39 nope 17:54:45 i don't think 17:54:50 oh 17:54:51 hmm 17:54:53 wikipedia says so 17:54:55 that's odd 17:54:56 top 3 google results all say 99.999 17:55:00 but two of them are Wikipedia 17:55:25 ais523, citations? 17:55:26 Well, 99.99999 % is .9999999 when represented in a sane way; so seven nines. 17:55:32 also 17:55:40 AnMaster: the article's uncited 17:55:47 someone should add lots of [citation needed] to the wikipedia article on wikipedia 17:55:48 ! 17:55:49 and there isn't even a template about that 17:56:07 hah 17:56:14 really, I think seven nines should be possible 17:56:19 * ais523 tags with unref 17:56:35 if you have a massively redundant setup - i.e., say, 10 servers all running exactly the same thing, in different data centres around the world 17:56:38 ais523, also someone should add "This article or section may not reflect a worldwide view" on the article on the US constitution :D 17:56:40 and then multiple balancers balancing between them 17:56:54 then pretty much when one fails skip to the next 17:57:06 i mean, if they have nothing in common apart from the app they're running, server outages, etc are never a problem 17:57:11 unless all 10 go down simultaneously 17:57:14 which is... unlikely 17:57:18 AnMaster: but then they'd just add a US Constitution in Vietnamese Popular Culture section 17:57:18 if theyr'e all separate 17:57:21 then it's just software issues 17:57:22 ehird, DNS root servers: 100% uptime 17:57:27 AnMaster: not 100% 17:57:31 ehird, really? 17:57:36 there's absolutely no way to guarantee that 17:57:37 ehird, the actual service yes 17:57:46 i guarantee you, if one of those servers was bombed it'd go down 17:57:50 ehird: there have been systems with multiple massively redundant balancers 17:58:01 ehird, sure but then the ip would stop being advertised 17:58:05 I'm not sure how they'd actually measure that "seven nines" thing; if they have one hour of downtime, they should then be online for the next thousand years or so. 17:58:07 AnMaster: thats not 100% uptime 17:58:08 err I don't know the name 17:58:13 like geodns 17:58:15 on routing level 17:58:17 forgot the name 17:58:22 one of the systems had a hardware failure, so they tried to turn it off to replace a component 17:58:26 fizzie: well, six nines is 31 seconds of downtime per year 17:58:30 but they turned the wrong one off by mistake, and the system went down 17:58:34 bbiab 17:58:36 imo it'd be possible to get less than that 17:58:40 i mean, pretty easily 17:58:43 as far as these things go 17:58:45 So it's counted as "downtime per year"? Okay. 17:58:49 ais523: heh 17:59:37 %raw quit 17:59:38 -!- testthingy has quit. 18:00:42 bbiab again 18:02:47 Holy fuck. 18:02:50 Why made a language. 18:02:51 http://github.com/why/potion/tree/master 18:03:02 add = (x, y): x + y. 18:03:04 Me likely that syntax. 18:29:04 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:43:43 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:56:09 -!- oerjan has quit ("Rhombus"). 19:07:23 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:07:45 -!- olsner has joined. 19:18:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:20:43 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 19:24:11 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:27:14 Argh 19:27:24 oocalc doesn't support spreadsheets with more than 65536 rows :P 19:28:15 Anyway, the average word length in the aspell spelling dictionary is a whopping 8.5 19:29:10 I would tell you what the median is, but I can't. 19:29:17 (Since it won't open in oocalc :P ) 19:30:49 My (English) wordlist seems to have an average length of about 9.6, according to perl -ne 'chomp; $n++; $l += length($_); END { print $l/$n, "\n"; }' < /usr/share/dict/words 19:31:32 While /usr/share/dict/finnish gives 12.7. Our words are longer than yours, neener-neener. 19:31:57 I just did: aspell dump master en > words; wc -l words; wc -c words, then (c-l)/l 19:32:56 About 8.579 for "aspell dump master en" here. 19:33:12 Yup, same here. 19:33:18 I just truncated because I'm lazy :P 19:33:59 aspell-dumping the 'fi' list gives me 13.28; even larger difference there. 19:34:34 Also 731284 words, versus 138599 in the 'en' listing. Of course it's just different cases of various words. 19:34:48 OK but in common usage, I'd say 5-6 is the most common 19:36:37 Of the 1000 most common words in English, the much-more-reasonable 5.3 was average. 19:36:49 * ehird thinks of the simplest way to express the relation a.b.c.d -> {a,a.b,a.b.c} 19:39:12 The median is 5 (no shock) 19:41:37 Few consecutive words from the 'fi' list: "metsä", "metsää", "metsäämme", "metsään", "metsääni", "metsäänne", "metsäänsä" -- translated "forest", "forest (partitive case)", "into our forest", "into the forest", "into my forest", "into your (plural) forest", "into his/her forest"; and it continues like that for at least 70 word forms. 19:42:15 Heh, clearly list-style spelling dictionaries aren't best suited to Finnish :P 19:42:19 (Or probably German for that matter) 19:42:29 (And I only counted those which do not alter the stem "metsä" at all, and tried to discount hunting-related words.) 19:42:37 (I usually think of German when I think of tons of words glued together) 19:43:15 At least the German language uses prepositions for many things; we just add all kinds of tiny suffixes. 19:43:23 Anyone know of a good way to express a.b.c.d -> {a, a.b, a.b.c}? 19:43:26 Can't think of a natural way. 19:45:50 ehird, what is that supposed to be? 19:46:02 Function. 19:46:15 Take {a, b, c, d}, produce {{a}, {a, b}, {a, b, c}}. 19:46:24 ah well 19:46:25 Well, produce {a,b,c,d} as the last one, then it's just a matter of chopping that off. 19:46:29 i would express it as... 19:46:39 {a,b,c,d} -> {{a}, {a,b}, {a,b,c}} 19:46:40 :P 19:46:50 for arbitrary length lists. 19:47:06 hmm 19:47:12 That looks more like sets when you use {}s. 19:48:25 There's the term "prefix set" for "abcde" -> {e, "a", "ab", "abc", "abcd", "abcde"} -- where e is the empty string -- which is pretty close, but seems that "prefix set" can mean other things too. 19:48:33 -!- jix has joined. 19:48:56 f (x:xs) = map (\n -> take n (x:xs)) [1...(length xs)] 19:49:10 that should work, ehird. :D 19:49:22 or something like that. im not good with haskell enough to know 19:49:29 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:49:32 did you just ask #haskell? :P 19:49:36 no lol 19:49:44 but yeah 19:49:47 that looks reasonable 19:49:55 well it is 19:50:12 the lengths of each of the new sublists are just 1,2,...n-1 19:50:19 where n is the length of the input list 19:50:36 so you can just enum 1...n-1, and map that to the first that-many items of the input list 19:51:46 You can write it as a single list comprehension if you don't like the map-lambda part, too. 19:51:50 Prelude> let f (x:xs) = [take n (x:xs) | n <- [1..(length xs)]] 19:51:50 Prelude> f "foobar" 19:51:50 ["f","fo","foo","foob","fooba"] 19:51:58 ah yes 19:52:00 thats more elegant 19:52:59 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:53:04 Or alternatively with a named pattern: 19:53:06 f x@(_:xs) = [take n x | n <- [1..(length xs)]] 19:53:10 Although the @ is not pretty. 19:53:58 i'd like to get rid of the [1..(length xs)] :| 19:54:32 [take n (x:xs) | n > 0, n <= (length xs)]??? 19:54:36 would that work? 19:58:49 It's not clever enough. Even "... | n <- [1..], n <= 5" will never finish evaluating the sixth element of the list since it can't figure out that the [1..] will never again be <= (length xs) later on. 19:59:09 I'm sure some haskellist can give a prettier version, anyway. 20:01:28 fizzie: you wrote a regex->bf compiler in java in 2005 20:01:29 SHOW IT 20:05:01 Hah: 20:05:06 Prelude> let f [] = []; f (x:xs) = [x]:[x:y | y <- f xs] 20:05:07 Prelude> f "foobar" 20:05:07 ["f","fo","foo","foob","fooba","foobar"] 20:05:10 That is the prettier way. 20:05:18 Let's see if I can find that regex-bf thing. 20:07:57 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 20:07:57 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:09:45 -!- Corun has joined. 20:12:26 Why do I not have a brainfuck interpreter anywhere? Foolishness. 20:15:49 char m[99999],*n[99],*r=m,*p=m+50000,**s=n,d,c;main(){for(read(0,r, 20:15:49 p);c=*r++;c-93?c-91?d?0:c-43&~2?c-44?c-46?p+=c&~2^60?0:c%4-1:write( 20:15:49 1,p,1):read(2,p,1):(*p-=c-44):d++||(*++s=r):d&&--d?0:*p?r=*s:--s);} 20:15:51 there you go 20:16:01 Wait, I do have my own similar one. 20:16:07 i bet mine is shorter 20:18:12 hm. looking at that mess... i'm really proud of it :) 20:18:18 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:18:53 Yours is 65 characters shorter, yes. 20:18:53 p+=c&~2^60?0:c%4-1 20:19:01 i even roughly remember why i'm doing that 20:19:06 Mine is more readable. :p 20:19:10 main(j,a,n,t)int*a;{unsigned short p=-1;char*r=calloc(n=p+1,6),*i=r 20:19:10 +n,**k=i+n;for(read(open(*++a,t=0),i,p);n=*i-43,t<0?n-48?n-50||++t: 20:19:10 --t:n?n-2?n-19?n-17?n-3?n-48?n-50?n-1||read(0,r+p,1):p[r]?i=k[j]:j 20:19:10 --:p[r]?k[++j]=i:t--:putchar(p[r]):p--:p++:p[r]--:p[r]++,*i++;);} 20:19:11 the nice thing about brainfuck is 20:19:21 if you closely examiny the binary encoding of the instruction 20:19:28 *examine 20:19:34 you can more treat it like microcode 20:19:47 (in ascii, that is) 20:20:47 Hoy, I foundeded the regex thing. 20:20:50 fis@eris:~/tmp/bfre$ java -cp . BFRE '(ab)*' > test.b 20:20:50 fis@eris:~/tmp/bfre$ beef test.b 20:20:50 abab 20:20:50 acc! 20:20:50 fis@eris:~/tmp/bfre$ beef test.b 20:20:52 abababab 20:20:55 acc! 20:20:57 fis@eris:~/tmp/bfre$ beef test.b 20:21:00 abba 20:21:02 oh boy 20:21:03 rej! 20:21:05 It's not PCRE, but it does the basics. 20:21:32 how stupid 20:21:43 i'm rather positive that you can encode something like 50000 in less than 5 chars 20:21:46 there are so many operators 20:22:43 ehird: http://zem.fi/~fis/BFRE.java -- it's quite a mess, though. 20:23:09 hmmm. 20:24:40 flexo: My version uses a "unsigned short p=-1" to get a suitably big number for storage allocation as well as a 'p' data-pointer that auto-wraps. But it's not very short, no. 20:25:31 9<<0xf is unfortunatly 6 bytes 20:26:03 oh, and i don't do the int parameter trick 20:26:04 I don't see a reason for "9<<0xf" when "9<<15" has less characters. 20:26:16 uh. 20:26:19 right 20:26:20 :) 20:26:22 still 20:26:24 5 bytes 20:27:50 probably not possible? 20:28:09 4 bytes gives you two operands and 2 operators 20:35:02 ehird 20:35:06 http://www.boingboing.net/2009/01/06/tumbarumba-a-surreal.html 20:35:32 BOING BOING 20:35:36 It is a penis sound 20:37:22 i love penis 20:38:03 Really? I didn't notice. 20:38:14 * Slereah_ is making an origami Shii 20:46:27 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 20:53:12 WHAT'S THIS? LOLHASKELL?! 20:53:25 ghci> :type Just "invisible bike" 20:53:25 Just "invisible bike" :: Maybe [Char] 20:57:51 * Badger whacks psygnisf_ with a rolled up newspaper 20:58:14 no no! 20:58:23 seriously! look! http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/defining-types-streamlining-functions.html 20:59:07 <3 book 172 20:59:08 er 20:59:10 <3 book 173 20:59:44 ive only gotten about a third of the way through excession 20:59:54 thats the sum total of my cultureverse experience 21:00:19 I've read the other Culture books *except* Excession; for some reason it just didn't go as smoothly as the others. 21:01:14 I guess the bot-loop danger is not imminent right now. 21:01:15 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie. 21:01:58 Excession was my favourite. 21:03:27 heh 21:03:30 invisible bike indeed 21:05:10 I rather liked Look to Windward, actually. At least some parts. Like the stuff with the pylons. 21:05:13 you see? 21:05:22 its like.. what? when did haskellers start doing lolcats? 21:05:39 Since they're nerds? 21:07:25 yeah but they're not that kind of nerd 21:07:33 they're like OMG MONADS SPOOGE <3 21:07:35 they've been doing it since way back 21:07:36 nerds 21:08:09 Yo dawg, I herd you like function calls 21:08:31 so i herd u liek monads 21:09:02 Can you put a monad in my monad? 21:09:05 So that I may... 21:09:11 Well, do whatever monads do 21:09:13 While doing it 21:18:04 Yes, the Haskell library provides monad transformers to sort-of put a monad on a monad. 21:28:32 put a monad on a monad? 21:37:28 -!- oklopol has joined. 21:39:58 It's that "Put a X in your X" meme. 21:57:45 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:00:57 ehird: my google apps email account is currently: You are currently using 0MB (0%) of your 7278MB. 22:01:10 Asztal: And this is the free version? 22:01:22 well, I'm not paying for anything 22:01:23 (Just assuming you're not giving google $50/year to host a mail sever for you.) 22:01:28 Asztal: is it the free trial? 22:01:31 unless it's giving me a free trial 22:01:34 yep 22:01:35 by default 22:01:44 bummer, dude 22:02:03 resign up for the nonprofit free one :P 22:03:23 Try Premier Edition Free 22:03:24 * 25GB storage per user, no ads, 99.9% uptime SLA 22:06:40 Asztal: true 22:08:23 Gmail has free trials? 22:08:45 kerlo: google apps for your domain 22:08:51 it's gmail, except for your own site-web 22:09:12 Asztal: what's the advantages over just forwarding to gmail btw? 22:09:52 Ah. 22:13:26 ehird: presumably when doing that you still need some simple server to do the actual forwarding? 22:13:32 I just set my MX records to gmail. 22:13:40 Asztal: it's easier to set up a redirecting server than a full one :P 22:14:35 true. 22:14:48 I'm not sure what the benefits are... probably not very much. 22:16:35 you can rescheme the login form and the logo? :P 22:17:35 Speaking of MX records, I think I'll take a peek at mine. 22:18:02 Dirty. 22:19:22 * kerlo successfully guesses his GoDaddy password 22:20:41 MX: @ is normish.org 22:36:33 er 22:37:20 f(1) = 1; f([2,3]) = 2; f([4,6]) = 3; f([7,10]) = 4; and so on 22:37:23 what's f? 22:37:50 um, what does it do? 22:37:54 diff + 1 22:38:02 o 22:38:20 1 is considered a 1-tuple, its elements don't have any differences, because it's a singleton 22:38:24 err sorry that's bad notation 22:38:55 grndlvlbombdood: and because psygnisfive didn't remember, and he just remembered it was something interesting. 22:39:12 f(1) = 1; f(2) =2; f(3) = 2; f(4) = 3; f(5) = 3; f(6) = 3; f(7) = 4; f(8) = 4.... 22:39:31 well that's even easier 22:40:07 has to do with square methinks, but i'd have to fiddle to get it 22:40:25 no not square, urrrr. 22:41:45 ceil((sqrt(1+8*x) - 1)/2) 22:42:06 something like that. 22:42:28 exactly like that 22:42:59 might be something vaguely similar to something like that, yes 22:52:15 OEIS Search Results: A002024 "n appears n times"; 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6, ... a(n) = floor( 1/2 + sqrt(2n) ). Also a(n)=ceil((sqrt(1+8*n)-1)/2). a(n) = a(n - a(n-1)) + 1. a(n) = round(sqrt(2*n)). 22:55:37 Pff, ceiling and round. 22:56:05 Use the sinc function, my friend. 22:56:18 * kerlo looks up that closed-form formula for the Fibonacci sequence 22:56:55 Well, there's the generating function and a couple of references of other sequences in the OEIS too. 22:57:06 Pretty simple: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_sequence#Closed_form_expression 22:57:32 I'm not sure how that is related, except that it's also a sequence. 22:59:24 Night, anyway. 23:01:12 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:01:15 It's also a closed form expression for a sequence. 23:01:29 -!- oklopol has joined. 23:09:04 There should be a way to make an ordered directory. 23:11:04 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:16:29 Make an extension of ext3 that allows you to do that. 23:17:06 That is not useful for os x. 23:18:16 Take {a, b, c, d}, produce {{a}, {a, b}, {a, b, c}}. 23:18:18 hahaha 23:18:18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Yw6LQrtwHY&feature=related 23:18:27 tail . inits 23:18:43 er, tail . init . inits 23:18:51 psygnisf_: lol 23:19:11 REAL CYBERPUNK 23:19:19 * psygnisf_ sticks a chip on the side of my head 23:19:27 almost sort of mimicing the computer screen. 23:20:54 ESSENTIAL 23:21:51 ehird's fancy ordering scheme requires anonymous directories. 23:21:53 (works on infinite lists too, unlike the length using versions) 23:25:04 -!- gunfot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:25:07 -!- tofnug has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:25:22 gun foot, toe fnug 23:26:05 fognut 23:26:46 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:27:00 toungf, nougft 23:27:32 gnuoft 23:33:36 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 23:36:22 "Gnus oft" looks like something you'd find in a pangram. 23:36:51 its like.. what? when did haskellers start doing lolcats? 23:37:07 http://arcanux.org/lambdacats.html 23:37:43 If gnus oft say zed, quux jacks. 23:37:51 (Which probably isn't a pangram.) 23:38:52 it does not b 23:39:14 If gnus oft say zed by quux, jack. 23:40:58 hmph 23:41:15 Is that an actual pangram? 23:41:31 Can't be; it has only 25 letters. 23:42:53 It has A and B and C and D and E and F and G but not H; it has I and J and K but not L or M; it has N and O but not P; it has Q but not R; it has S and T and U but not V or W; it has X and Y and Z. 23:44:55 Stop singing the alphabet 23:45:21 This Pangram contains four a's, one b, two c's, one d, thirty e's, six f's, five g's, seven h's, eleven i's, one j, one k, two l's, two m's, eighteen n's, fifteen o's, two p's, one q, five r's, twenty-seven s's, eighteen t's, two u's, seven v's, eight w's, two x's, three y's, & one z. 23:49:56 hm would you reach that if you wrote it as an iterated system, and started with 0 of everything... 23:50:50 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 23:54:05 It's likely you would end up in an infinite loop. 23:56:29 that program was machine-generated 23:56:31 (custom machine) 23:56:34 err 23:56:36 pangram 2009-01-09: 00:02:09 -!- grndlvlbombdood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 00:04:22 I still say that there should be an ordered directory structure in filesystems. 00:06:45 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 00:15:40 ordered directory structure? 00:15:53 ehird: how did you generate it? 00:15:54 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 00:16:01 i didnt generate it 00:16:03 i stole it 00:16:03 :P 00:16:36 err right, would've been quite fast 00:18:50 -!- Corun has joined. 00:19:59 bah seems not to converge 00:23:29 what happens? 00:23:54 This pangram contains zero a's, zero b's, zero c's, zero d's, zero e's, zero f's, zero g's, zero h's, zero i's, zero k's, zero l's, zero m's, zero n's, zero o's, zero p's, zero q's, zero s's, zero t's, zero u's, zero v's, zero w's, zero x's, zero y's, zero z's, zero apostrophes, zero commas, zero spaces, and one period. 00:25:32 That's not very accurate. 00:26:16 oerjan: *same question* 00:40:53 oklopol: i didn't check for longer cycles, let me see 00:41:22 (btw i started with the string "abc...z") 00:41:50 also i used "no" rather than "zero", not that it was ever used of course 00:42:39 -!- kerlo has left (?). 00:46:30 oops 01:00:02 ah 01:00:35 "This Pangram contains four a's, one b, two c's, one d, thirty-one e's, five f's, seven g's, nine h's, thirteen i's, one j, one k, one l, two m's, nineteen n's, fourteen o's, two p's, one q, six r's, twenty-seven s's, twenty t's, three u's, five v's, seven w's, three x's, three y's, & one z." repeats after 126 steps 01:04:29 and does not appear until about 1008 steps after a..z 01:05:08 i just did not wait long enought the first times i tried 01:42:16 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:45:31 -!- Dewio has joined. 01:57:40 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 03:49:04 This pangram contains your mom. 03:51:51 That is not a pangram. 04:10:57 SPAM SPAM WONDERFUL SPAM 04:12:10 there's an algo for pangrams. what is it? 04:13:05 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 04:14:04 you mean self-describing pangrams? pangram alone just means something containing every letter 04:14:28 yes, self describing pangrams :P 04:15:54 that would be constraint solving i think. or maybe something evolutionary... 04:15:58 i suspect its solvable with a linear equation 04:16:21 i strongly doubt that 04:17:12 the number -> vector of letters in numeral mapping is complicated 04:18:41 i dunno man 04:18:57 there must be a way! 04:18:57 :p 04:19:07 by evolutionary i mean, you could use an iteration like i did, but then do a random change when you got stuck 04:20:44 only 16 letters actually appear in the numbers 1-99, that reduces search space 04:25:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangram 04:26:06 i wonder if the example posted above was pasted from there 04:26:37 if so, it was computed with dedicated hardware 04:27:01 mind you that was in 1984 so obviously an ordinary computer should be able to do it now 04:27:27 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 04:27:27 its an autogram is what it is 04:27:30 thats the real term 04:27:46 looks identical on a glance 04:27:56 autograms are self describing 04:27:59 pangrams contain all the letters 04:28:11 its merely coincidental that some autograms can also be pangrams 04:28:24 yes but i guess making them also pangrams probably is not that much worse 04:28:44 likely. 04:30:43 the page speaks of Binary Decision Diagrams 04:30:53 yes 04:31:00 now if wikipedia wasn't constantly locking up... 04:36:38 which probably means that they are essentially solving it by reducing to a case of an NP-complete problem... 04:37:04 not very promising :D 04:37:13 D: 04:37:34 i enjoy understanding what P and NP mean 04:37:57 but not so much hitting into them, eh? 04:38:05 what? 04:38:51 but you don't enjoy quite as much having to solve NP-complete problems... 04:39:37 never had to try :P 04:41:18 actually most interesting puzzles are probably human-sized (small!) versions of NP-complete problems 04:43:26 what 04:46:13 sudoku for example, becomes NP-complete if you have arbitrary board size and non-unique solutions 04:46:52 hm 04:47:34 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 05:27:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:51:46 -!- moozilla has joined. 06:04:06 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:34:00 -!- kar8nga has joined. 06:38:29 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 07:08:09 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 07:12:53 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:31:30 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:32:04 -!- Asztal has joined. 07:58:23 hm. looking at that mess... i'm really proud of it :) <-- optimizing? 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:07:14 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:14:05 -!- MizardX has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:14:05 -!- oerjan has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:14:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:14:11 -!- MizardX has joined. 08:19:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 08:26:32 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:26:40 -!- moozilla has joined. 08:33:26 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi. 08:42:53 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:42:54 -!- metazilla has joined. 08:56:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("e disasterous."). 10:54:35 that pangram problem would be quite hard to show np-complete given english numbers aren't exactly that simple 10:55:09 and of course it would trivially be in p if you just had the english numbers and the english alphabet, because a solution is known 10:55:20 a problem instance can't really be np-complete 10:56:49 but you could probably include subset sum somehow given the ability to specify the alphabet and the way to represent numerals 10:57:11 not that i can think very coherently this early 10:57:14 shuppe -> 11:16:22 At least it becomes meaningful to talk about its algoritmic complexity if alphabet and numerics used are variable. 11:17:12 yes 11:17:27 but i can't find a simple way to encode anything in it 11:18:01 i think i'm close to getting it, but i don't really have the time atm 11:18:52 But is that problem even in NP (i.e. it does not blow up superpolynomially)? 11:19:09 In solution size that is... 11:19:14 it's trivially in np, you can just count characters and their amounts. 11:19:25 *character amounts 11:20:04 given numerics, an alphabet and a solution, just check the solution contains only pieces of the alphabet, and for all characters, their amount is represented with the correct numeric 11:20:31 oh 11:20:35 i see what you mean 11:21:12 well we need to be polynomial on the size of the set of numerics 11:21:27 i can't see a way to get a superpolynomial solution 11:21:57 What could happen is similar to what happens in Sokoban: The solution chains can blow up exponetially -> PSPACE. 11:22:06 the solution is essentially an n-tuple of numerics, one representing each character's count in the whole tuple's numerics + 1 11:22:18 err 11:22:21 you don't need a solution chain 11:22:30 are we talking about the same thing? 11:22:31 Actually, the problem is not well-defined. How you encode numerics used? 11:22:50 i'm talking about generalizing "this pangram contains x1 a's, x2 b's..." 11:23:28 well just give a list of all the numerics you're allowed to use 11:23:39 if you need a bigger number, there's no solution 11:23:42 doesn't lose generality 11:24:02 That 'solution chain' referred to Sokoban. You can encode explicit solution, but it can be exponential in lenght, so Sokoban is not in NP (its in PSPACE). 11:24:36 well i don't know sokoban, i can look it up 11:24:46 yeah what does that have to do with this? 11:25:02 there's no chain here, you just calculate amounts, and see if the right numeric is in place 11:25:25 any solution will just be an n-tuple from the given set of numerics, where n is the size of the alphabet 11:25:49 there cannot be anything superpolynomial about that, because you have a polynomial-size tuple of polynomial-size objects 11:26:23 i mean i did understand what you meant by the solution chain thing 11:27:10 Bound for certificate space required is n*ceil(log2(k)), where n is number of alphabet and k is number of numerics. 11:27:12 but here we're just checking a solution, there's no computation involved in the solution checking, as is usual for np-completeness 11:27:40 no actually k should be the size of the largest numeric 11:28:00 well 11:28:04 right, yeah, that's okay too 11:28:34 you're just exploiting the fact the list is in the problem descriptino 11:28:37 *description 11:29:58 Even if numeric description size is logaritmic in numbers representable, then its still O(n*k)... 11:31:07 true 11:31:46 yeah it's the same as sokoban, counting the characters is the computation that can last an exponential amount 11:32:34 i was thinking there would be only a polynomial amount of polynomial numerics 11:32:55 err. then again, if you want the *number* of numerics to be polynomial 11:33:02 then the actual list of numerics is exponential 11:33:29 well. i guess it doesn't have to be 11:33:37 why would it, just could 11:34:14 blargh, if you keep talking to me, i'm going to have to start thinking at some poitn 11:34:16 *point 11:35:13 blah, yes you're right, might be pspace, should probably define it better 11:35:28 If there is some upper limit to numerics used, and representation of numerics in problem is at least logaritmic, then its in NP. 11:36:07 well i assumed a polynomial amount of numerics initially 11:37:18 basically you need the counting of characters to be in np, which that should guarantee, yes 11:38:31 but i never really even considered that, i assumed if there was a beautiful solution to encode something in it, you'd easily see if the result was checkable in polynomial time, and that i could define the problem after that 11:38:38 :-) 11:39:21 ah representation at least logarithmic so the character amounts can't get infinite, yes, good point 11:40:07 Ilari: approximately, where do you live? i'm such a patriot that i like to know that about finns 11:41:44 Actually, I think with logspace numerics, its not in NP. 11:41:48 oklopol: Helsinki. 11:42:31 The reason for that is that by increasing the alphabet size, you can make solution size blow up superpolynomially. 11:43:30 And the size of problem encoding is only logaritmic in alphabet size... 11:43:56 But the size of solution is linear in alphabet size -> exponential blowup. 11:44:30 well err, if the number of numerics is polynomial, and all their sizes are polynomial, i don't see what could go wrong. i mean there couldn't, then, be an exponential size solution because that would require an exponential input, right? 11:45:40 err the problem encoding also contains the numerics, so even if the solution is linear in alphabet size, it will only contain a small subset of the given set of numerics 11:45:53 err 11:46:20 what i mean is, you can't need an exponential amount of time to count the characters, because then you'd have an exponential amount of numerics in the input as well 11:48:22 i mean the crucial problem with getting an exponential blowup is we want the set of numerics as an explicit list 11:48:49 if we just encoded it like, say, english does, in a logarithmic amount of rules, then we'd hit the linear in alphabet size problem 11:49:24 The problem comes from the fact that solution size is necressarily linear in number of alphabet, but the problem description size is linear in number of bits in alphabet size. 11:52:42 i don't think so, if we need the numerics to be given explicitly. we can only use time O(|set of numerics|) to count characters 11:52:52 and if that needs to be polynomial, i don't see a problem 11:54:37 just like, if you're given a graph with n connected components, and you need to find the biggest subset of those components whose union size is smaller than a given number 11:55:22 you can just use dynamic programming, because the input size contains the numbers in "unary", just like in here 11:55:33 s/input size/input 11:56:17 It takes exponential time just to iterate through the alphabet... 11:56:50 the alphabet size is polynomial, so what do you mean? 11:57:37 What in problem input is linear in size of alphabet? 11:58:36 the tuple that is the solution is linear in the size of the alphabet, it has an element for each character 11:59:20 Exactly. But I don't see that the input has to be linear in size of alphabet... 11:59:50 the checking problem requires you to, for each character (linear in size of alphabet), count the number of those characters in the numbers (linear in size of set of numberics and their representation) 12:00:04 Ilari: umm, so you can have an exponential input? 12:00:17 then, it takes exponential time to check the numbers are even in the set of numerics. 12:00:24 thus clearly it isn't in np. 12:00:45 the crucial point is how we encode the numerics, i assumed they were given explicitly, in a list. 12:03:00 are you perhaps implicitly assuming the set of numerics can be represented in logarithmic space? 12:03:33 at least if it could, you would be correct, it would not be in np 12:04:26 anyway, i need to go read my book, we're not really getting anywhere arguing about... well not sure what :P 12:04:29 * oklopol goes -> 13:04:46 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:13:47 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:38:45 -!- Corun has joined. 13:45:15 -!- jix has joined. 14:01:04 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:07:22 -!- jix has joined. 14:18:07 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 14:18:28 http://img.secretareaofvipquality.net/src/1230134229081.jpg 14:18:29 D: 14:19:39 i don't get it 14:20:16 LISP 14:20:21 I don't know either. 14:20:38 ('A')? 14:21:46 Nop 14:21:53 It's universal quantifier 14:22:30 and it's upside down why? 14:22:49 ... 14:22:57 Owait 14:22:59 You're right. 14:23:10 It's usually an universal quantifier. 14:23:18 It are supposed to be a mona kittun 14:24:34 wut? 14:24:51 ASCII art stuff on the chans. 14:32:07 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:09:16 -!- Corun has joined. 16:04:15 -!- ehird has set topic: i don't eat your face | man | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 16:07:57 06:18:28 http://img.secretareaofvipquality.net/src/1230134229081.jpg <-- lol 16:55:59 * AnMaster looks around 16:56:26 hello ehird my friend! 16:56:38 I don't eat your face. Man. 16:56:42 * ehird is possibly tired. 16:56:51 hehe 16:57:22 also what do you think about irregular webcomic today? 16:57:32 ehird, I think the annotation rocked 16:57:41 * ehird checks 16:58:18 heh 16:58:28 * AnMaster waits while ehird reads it 16:58:36 I skimmed the annotation, mostly. 16:58:40 But I got the gist :P 16:58:50 ehird, which is? 16:59:02 "You are my reader. I hate you." 16:59:28 hm I would say: "black body radiation and how it can be used to figure out temperature or stars and distance to them" 16:59:41 The intentions are what matters :-P 16:59:45 also a bit about general relativity 16:59:50 ehird, but I liked it! 16:59:57 Then he has failed :P 17:00:05 * ehird predicts that the comic will now fade to octarine 17:00:10 ehird, he has done such annotations a few times before 17:00:31 ehird, err that isn't inside the sRGB space is it? 17:00:41 sRGB is for squares. 17:01:11 err no, triangles, though square colour spaces would be possible I think 17:01:25 ~ 17:01:52 ehird, what colour space are apple monitors? 17:02:01 sRGB? :-P 17:02:12 Well. 17:02:19 System Preferences says "iMac". 17:02:27 It also has "sRGB Profile" as an alternative. 17:02:30 I would have assumed some wider one like AdobeRGB or such 17:02:36 Which mainly seems to be darker. 17:02:44 And it makes the text anti-aliasing look bad. 17:02:53 well no monitor matches a colour space exactly 17:02:57 AnMaster: it also has adobe rgb. 17:03:01 and ntsc, and PAL. 17:03:03 and god knows what. 17:03:10 well but what can the monitor actually show? 17:03:15 bbl, someone at the door 17:03:22 AnMaster: I'm not sure. 17:04:05 -_- Jehovas witness... 17:05:04 I assume they exist over in UK too? 17:05:07 Yeah. 17:05:27 I think we've only ever got one her. I want more so I can waste their time :( 17:06:34 well I wonder why they keep bothering with our house after my father once (3rd time same year or so) decided to start to try to convert them about Buddhism. No visits for a few years after that, but seems they started again last year or so 17:06:46 s/about/to/ 17:07:27 I saw it happen btw, was quite funny 17:07:47 lol 17:08:06 AnMaster: there's a way to get them stop coming 17:08:10 i forget what the term is 17:08:10 but 17:08:12 oh? 17:08:19 if you tell them you used to be one, but got excommunicated(?I think?) 17:08:20 bbl, _expected_ guest here 17:08:30 their strict rules are that they CANNOT come there ever again 17:08:34 (because you're a devil or something) 17:13:57 AnMaster: "Disfellowshipping" it seems 17:13:58 ehird, well that is no fun 17:14:09 There are over 30 violations for which a member can be disfellowshipped [21], including: Abortion, adultery, apostasy, bestiality, voluntary blood transfusions, drug abuse, drunkenness, extortion, fornication, fraud, gambling, heresy, homosexual activity, idolatry, incest, interfaith activity, loose conduct[22], manslaughter, murder, perverted sex relations[23], polygamy, pornography[24], sexual abuse, spiritism, theft, and use of tobacco. 17:14:14 OH NO, PORNOGRAPHY 17:14:19 better to try to convert them to Buddhism or such 17:14:35 voluntary blood transfusions? 17:14:41 why on earth 17:14:49 AnMaster: apparently blood is sacred. 17:14:59 blood transfusions are strictly forbidden for jehova's witnesses 17:15:02 even in case of emergency 17:15:58 gotta love cults 17:15:59 gambling huh..., so they can't play chess or anything? 17:16:30 Arguably that's not gambling. 17:16:31 :P 17:16:44 ah so gambling is just when it is about money or? 17:17:14 Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Typically, the outcome of the wager is evident within a short period. 17:17:18 -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling 17:17:19 anyway trying to convert them to Buddhism really get them confused, which is great fun. 17:17:40 ehird, so they don't like stock markets? 17:18:04 because you could describe that as close to that 17:18:05 Stock markets aren't gambling in public opinion, for some unfathomable reason. 17:18:22 agreed you would need to bend the definition of "wager", but not much 17:18:50 btw, imaginary colors rock 17:19:20 Yes. 17:19:25 I want a new colour. :-P 17:20:14 If a saturated green is viewed until the green receptors are fatigued and then a saturated red is viewed, a perception of red more intense than pure spectral red can be experienced. This is due to the fatigue of the green receptors and the resulting lack of their ability to desaturate the perceptual response to the output of the red receptors.[2] Kodak engineered Epcot's pavement to be a certain hue of pink so that the grass would look greener through th 17:20:17 e reverse of this effect.[citation needed] 17:20:19 Cooooooo 17:22:07 Hm. 17:22:12 I should compile something to llvm. 17:22:23 Maybe a nice lil' OOP language or something. 17:22:29 well why not just use the Lab colour space 17:22:41 Is it possible to write an LLVM thing in non-C++? 17:22:50 ehird, yes iirc, they have a C interface 17:22:57 Apart from C? :P 17:23:14 ehird, well ocaml, since someone used the C interface to make an ocaml interface iirc 17:23:22 or was it making ocaml compile using llvm? 17:23:25 one of those 17:23:31 AnMaster: Why isn't it language agnostic? 17:23:44 ehird, well it could be, but you need to make an interface 17:23:56 That's not language agnostic. 17:23:59 iirc both python and perl can interface C libraries 17:24:07 ehird, the bytecode spec format is open 17:24:12 you could write your own generator 17:24:18 Bleh 17:24:34 ehird, but what do you suggest instead of a library with a standard interface? 17:25:18 AnMaster: A simple plaintext format that you can just pipe to llvm? 17:25:23 You know. UNIX. 17:25:24 sure 17:25:27 that exists 17:25:30 llvm byte code asm 17:25:31 :P 17:25:57 So why not use that? 17:26:05 indeed, why not? 17:26:17 Well, is it more complex than the API? 17:26:36 ehird, iirc the llvm website have info somewhere on it comparing pros and cons of those different ways 17:26:44 OK. 17:27:53 http://llvm.org/docs/FAQ.html#langirgen 17:27:58 against: the .ll parser is slower than the bitcode reader when interfacing to the middle end 17:28:01 that would be especially bad 17:28:08 as i'd like it to be fast enough for e.g. using it for a REPL 17:28:14 eval() and suchlike. 17:28:23 ehird, yes could be a problem then 17:28:34 if you want to JIT stuff you probably need to use the API 17:28:50 I guess I might have to bite the bullet and use C. 17:28:55 Ugh, I'll have to use effing flex and yacc. 17:29:15 Well, I could use lemon instead of yacc. 17:29:16 Still, ugh 17:29:33 ehird, hm can't languages like python, ruby and perl interface C libraries? 17:29:41 I'm pretty sure at least python and perl can 17:29:54 Sure, I guess. 17:29:58 I'll try it 17:30:10 ehird, maybe someone already wrote a wrapper? Might be worth checking 17:30:10 Of course, it won't fit in with the rest of the code, oh well. 17:30:15 Yes, good point. 17:30:59 Of course, it won't fit in with the rest of the code, oh well. <--? 17:31:12 AnMaster: it'll take structs, etc 17:31:22 which I'll have to construct manually from the objects 17:31:29 well yes, I guess it will be easier to wrap the C API rather than the C++ one 17:31:39 at least you'll only have to deal with POD then 17:32:06 You know, writing this in a HLL might be a bit stupid. 17:32:08 I'll go for C. 17:32:17 And, uh, s-expressions so I don't have to use flex/lemon. 17:32:28 ... even though I don't really want to use s-exprs, but oh well 17:32:44 ehird, HLL? 17:32:57 High level language. 17:33:02 ah right 17:33:09 what language did you plan to use to begin with? 17:33:25 Eh, just one of the typical scripting languages. But tying a HLL to another HLL would be silly. 17:33:25 iirc there is some llvm thing for haskell for example, but I may remember wrong 17:34:12 Ooh. That could be very nice. 17:34:18 Yes, I believe there is such a thing 17:34:30 That is so, so tempting. 17:34:49 ehird, well I don't know details, I think I was randomly browsing on ohloh or such 17:34:55 or viewing suggestions for the stack there 17:35:03 I saw it a few days ago on reddit, I think, actually! 17:35:18 AUR (en) - haskell-llvm 17:35:18 24 Dec 2008 ... http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/llvm ... http:// hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/llvm/0.4.1.0/llvm-0.4.1.0. ... 17:35:18 aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=18018 - 7k - Cached - Similar pages - 17:35:18 hm 17:35:20 http://augustss.blogspot.com/2009/01/llvm-llvm-low-level-virtual-machine-is.html 17:35:29 Also, yeah, it's on hackage: http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/llvm 17:36:10 Thing about compiling to llvm is that I have to learn someone _else's_ arcane assembly, instead of inventing my own ;-) 17:36:16 ehird, oh also if you plan to mess with x86_64 and llvm use svn version 17:36:22 I hit some bugs in last release 17:36:29 I don't think I need 64-bit for this. 17:36:31 when you used -march and -O 17:36:36 on x86_64 17:36:41 I'm basically inspired by this: http://github.com/why/potion/tree/master 17:37:11 ehird, on last release you can get llvm-gcc to ICE in stage2 of bootstrapping itself 17:37:20 http://github.com/why/potion/commits/master <- Wow, that's some activity 17:38:08 ehird, interesting, and that uses llvm? 17:38:11 Nope 17:38:15 Custom VM 17:38:21 Also has a JIT 17:38:22 for x86 17:38:28 but works on non-x86, just slower 17:38:40 so it uses a custom written JIT for x86 and x86_64 (it says so in README) 17:38:43 huh 17:38:55 how old is the project? 17:39:02 I think, um, a few weeks. 17:39:07 considering the activity level I would assume fairly new 17:39:07 Maybe a month or two. 17:39:15 well 17:39:16 why created repository potion 1 day ago 17:39:16 and the JIT actually works? 17:39:21 but he's worked on it for longer, presumably 17:39:28 AnMaster: yes 17:39:40 writing a good JIT takes time, lots of time 17:40:57 " * No error handling. I'm wary of just tossing 17:40:57 in exceptions and feeling rather uninspired 17:40:57 on the matter. Let's hear from you." 17:40:59 ah easy 17:41:02 reflection :P 17:41:03 * core: okay, first checkin. the parser is coming together. started this 17:41:03 on the 15th. 17:41:05 -- december 17:41:26 so he's developed a prototype with a working jit in less than a month. 17:41:38 of an object-oriented language with also a VM and interesting object model. 17:41:44 i swear that guy is paid to sit around all day and be awesome 17:42:05 ehird, well I can believe someone managed to write a well working JIT in less than a month if he was dedicated, and a OO lang... But both? No way 17:42:20 Well, there's your evidence. 17:42:23 Browse through the commits if you want. 17:43:00 well, what about work? Either rich enough to not need it or the company sponsors this, or something else 17:43:12 See: "i swear that guy is paid to sit around all day and be awesome" 17:43:19 ehird, yes I agreed with you 17:43:30 AnMaster: I think what you have to realise is that he's crazy as all hell. 17:43:48 Evidence: http://poignantguide.net/ruby/chapter-4.html (<-- this is from a _programming_ tutorial. Needs images.) 17:43:54 ehird, or he is a student, one of those who back in the 1970s would have rewritten unix over the weekend 17:44:20 More evidence: handwritten code, with coloured pencils. http://redhanded.hobix.com/cult/ahaNoticeTheExpandoWhichPrecludes.html 17:44:28 ehird, well he isn't too bad at drawing 17:44:33 certainly draws better than me 17:44:51 ehird, WHY ARE THERE NO PUNCH CARDS!? 17:45:00 AnMaster: don't give him ideas, man 17:45:11 ehird, interesting nick btw, "why" 17:45:34 his full name is actually why the lucky stiff. 17:45:38 Also he has a GUI toolkit called Shoes, singular. 17:45:40 Examine: 17:45:42 * AnMaster googles that 17:45:51 why's new toolkit, Shoes, is great. why the lucky stiff is so awesome. 17:46:15 wikipedia... "why the lucky stiff (often known simply as why or _why) is the persona of a prolific writer, cartoonist, musician, artist, and computer programmer notable for his work with the Ruby programming language." 17:46:18 hm 17:46:38 hm there is a photo too 17:47:17 also the wp article seems like a link dump 17:48:37 ehird, hm are you sure this is one person? 17:48:51 not several performing a practical joke of some weird sort 17:48:57 AnMaster: the theory that he is a collective has been put forward. The personality is a bit too consistent for that, though :P 17:49:48 * ehird decides to write language as custom vm language in Haskell. Maybe. 17:50:11 ehird, well I'd assume only one would do the drawing bit, to make it consistent, and so on. If not he is some sort of super-productive multi-skilled genius... 17:50:43 Alternative theory: He is a regular person who codes Java by day in a regular, messed-up javacorp. Wears a tie. 17:50:44 But. 17:50:49 Has a huge stash of LSD at home. 17:50:52 And an internet connection. 17:51:00 And coloured crayons. 17:51:27 would LSD do that? I don't know any details of the effects caused by that drug 17:51:44 Seems to fit :-P 17:51:58 ehird, ? 17:52:04 what 17:52:34 http://blog.nihilogic.dk/2009/01/genetic-mona-lisa.html <- the javascript demoscener takes up the genetic algorithms meme 17:53:20 genetic algorithms meme? When did genetic algorithms become a meme? 17:53:34 since everyone and his dog generated the mona lisa from polygons with it :P 17:54:03 ehird, didn't that one miss recombinating and so on? 17:54:10 dunno 17:55:46 I'm pretty sure I read about the original and it seemed to do a, .... forgot the word 17:56:02 stochastic hill climb 17:56:03 directed search or something 17:56:05 ah yes 17:56:08 that sounds right 17:56:55 * ehird names language poke 17:57:05 think I seen that used already 17:57:09 not 100% sure though 17:57:11 meh. 17:57:20 * ehird decides between C and Haskell while wondering why that's even a choice 17:57:50 ehird, well I never tried the haskell interface for llvm, #llvm can be found on OFTC (not freenode) 17:58:05 at least the official #llvm 17:58:10 I decided against llvm :P 17:58:18 ehird, writing your own JIT? 17:58:27 Probably just a regular VM to start with. 17:58:31 Y'know, sanity and all that. 17:58:47 well I guess _why doesn't have any of that 17:59:02 Well, nor do I. 17:59:33 ehird, and/or he could be somewhat like those famous composers, Mozart and such, brainchilds 18:00:04 or, LSD 18:01:10 maybe in 200 years people will talk about famous programmers from the twenty-first century(sp?), like we today talk about famous composers, writes and painters of previous centuries 18:01:12 :D 18:01:34 assuming spelling is correct for the last word 18:03:10 "Phamus pr0gramrz aften used ''fakneames'' to hyd3 deir tru identiti. Forexam, ``why the lucky stiff`` (inth oldspeak, "wot a lucki blighter")" 18:03:24 I disclaim all liability if English ends up like that in the future. 18:03:43 ehird, I certainly hope AOL speak doesn't take over the world 18:07:31 ehird, hm is there a linux C version of this genetic meme? 18:07:38 yes, I believe so 18:07:39 se 18:07:40 sec 18:08:03 AnMaster: http://github.com/mackstann/mona/tree 18:08:09 * AnMaster doesn't know his way around this strange blogosphere thing 18:08:09 written by the kind of person who writes everything in C :-P 18:08:44 woo, C 18:08:50 "velociraptor.png"? Is this the xkcd author? 18:08:58 hm nop 18:09:13 nope* 18:10:03 Badger: but but you come from #haskell 18:12:18 heh 18:12:30 can't use the language though 18:12:32 not one bit 18:12:49 my puny attempts failed, whereas C is more comprehendable 18:13:08 only because you're used to it 18:13:14 quite possibly 18:14:04 * ehird plots to have a component called mon in this language, so he can make horrible puns about pokemon 18:15:04 Badger, what other functional languages do you know? 18:15:14 none 18:15:27 ehird, I choose you! 18:15:46 GOTTA INTERPRET THEM ALL! umm, no. 18:16:19 ehird, about that "http://redhanded.hobix.com/cult/ahaNoticeTheExpandoWhichPrecludes.html" you linked, wtf is "expando"? 18:16:37 how about reading 18:16:38 the text 18:16:44 and the linked article 18:16:44 http://diveintomark.org/archives/2007/04/01/document-dot-wacko 18:16:51 * AnMaster looks for the link 18:16:53 ah yes 18:16:56 and I read the text 18:19:32 i promise that poke will have an expando method on all objects. 18:19:34 "“Precludes the functionality.” Awesome." <-- eh? what is odd with that? Sure, it isn't informal everyday language. So what? Yes I read the whole post, and I agree with the poster that the thing is very wtf. 18:19:45 but not that language remark 18:20:23 AnMaster: it is wtfy because it's worded ridiculously and sounds funny. 18:20:49 ridiculously? You mean bureaucratically? 18:20:52 no 18:20:54 ridiculously 18:21:00 hm ok 18:21:01 i think you'd have to be a native speaker :P 18:21:06 probably 18:21:43 when I translate it mentally it ends up as highly bureaucratic, but not ridiculous 18:21:54 sure sometimes bureaucratic == ridiculous 18:24:30 ehird, like (real world example, not urban myth, I know the person first hand who read this in a report from someone on the local city council, a journalist btw), translated from Swedish: "green fodder converting milk production unit" 18:24:34 guess what that meant 18:24:46 i'm scared to 18:24:57 ehird, oh? milk cow 18:25:05 guessed that :D 18:26:21 ehird, oh and I have heard (from another journalist, my mother in fact, and no jokes about that) another person at the same city council call "windows" "light inlets" 18:26:27 :D 18:26:46 ehird, at a press conference 18:26:48 * ehird thinks about writing a program that takes text and pounds it through a thesaurus to make it more beaurocratic 18:28:11 about building some new building, library or museum or something, and that there should be many "light inlets" to create a nice environment and such, and when the journalists asked what he meant with "light inlets" he said something like "oh, um... you know, light inlets, um.... um... windows!" 18:28:18 :D 18:28:22 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:28:38 ehird, I guess it is the same in UK? 18:28:43 pretty much. 18:29:59 hm and this was back in the 1980s, I wonder what they sound like now (said person no longer works as a journalist, she is teaching journalism instead) 18:31:36 * ehird attempts to hack up object.h into something that looks right 18:31:44 (from the null string) 18:34:14 ehird, oh about the "green fodder converting..." thing, the journalist in question called the person who had written it and asked, why he didn't use a normal word. And the person said that if you used "cow" it could mean either "milk cow" or "meat cow".... Yes both of those exists as direct translations to Swedish and yes he used them, no I don't think he was ever able to explain why he didn't just us 18:34:14 e "milk cow" 18:34:26 :D 18:35:17 * ehird wonders if state is actuallyneeded in objects, with sufficient magic 18:36:26 hah 18:36:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:36:57 i mean 18:37:06 you could do it as a method definiton like 18:37:24 hello <- newSlot 18:37:25 becomes 18:37:39 hello <- { Slots at(5461651) } 18:37:44 where { ... } is a function 18:37:49 and the number is generated on newSlot 18:37:57 then hello actually returns a value 18:37:59 ehird, oh and something I saw myself... "park bench" as "sitting function". Sadly the translation in this case makes it even more messed up, because "function" in this case have more than one meaning 18:37:59 problem is assigning it 18:38:00 hrmhrm 18:44:24 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:44:42 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:48:48 Ok, let me ask a seemingly worthless question: Which distro: GoboLinux, Zenwalk, Lunar, SliTaz or Puppy (or something light/small too)? 18:49:21 Hiato, Arch Linux? 18:49:26 it all depends on what you want 18:49:41 I use Arch Linux and Gentoo Linux. ehird here said GoboLinux was good iirc 18:49:48 and I like both Gentoo and Arch 18:49:49 bbl 18:50:05 Hiato: slackware? i dunno. 18:50:07 gobolinux is nice. 18:50:16 but not that lightweight 18:50:22 AnMaster: Well, a stable learning/messing platform that is extensible, but doesn't go bandwidth crazy like Ubuntu. This has to fit in <700mb's 18:50:50 Oh, and it has to be something different, from the usuals, FC, RHL, SuSE, Deb etc 18:51:01 Arch fits in 300MB IIRC 18:51:08 Ok, I'll take a look at Arch 18:51:22 If installing the core system from the internet instead of the CD, half of that 18:51:46 Hiato: ew 18:51:51 don't look at arch :-P 18:52:02 That sounds awesome. Thing is, I'm not really even sure what I use an OS for anyway. I have a Windoze partition, mainly for Fallout 3, and then that's it. I do python and ruby, etc, so nothing constricting there 18:52:12 Hiato: if you want to learn how linux works 18:52:13 go with slackware 18:52:16 Heh, well, I meant *look* at, as in read :P 18:52:33 Hiato: i mean, slackware is like one level up from Linux From Scratch 18:52:50 I have a vague idea, but I just wanna be able to mess around. Yeah, so I've heard, hence I included zenwalk in the list 18:52:56 the installer is basically an interface over a program that copies over a kernel and runs the (barely-extant) package manager 18:53:03 see, that can be a good thing 18:53:04 lol :P 18:53:08 if you want to get proficient with linux, that's great 18:53:14 because you learn it without a glossing over 18:53:23 it's also very small and fast sort of feeling, in general 18:53:40 Hrmm, so, BlueWhit64? I have an AMD 18:54:05 I wouldn't go for a really obscure distro, it'd just be painful 18:54:19 Hiato: what do you want to do with this? 18:54:43 ehird: not sure, and that's 90% of the problem. I would say use it, but I'm not even sure what that means. 18:54:52 what primary uses? :-) 18:55:14 On windoze, gaming, on linux/misc: surfing, programming and stuffing about 18:55:38 Hiato: is learning linux to a deeper extent one of your goals? 18:56:18 ehird: Most certainly, but, not necessarily a priority. (PS: You should make a web-wizard distro selector, you have all the right questions) 18:56:50 Hiato: lol, there are plenty of distro selectors to go around... But, if you have a lot of spare time and don't mind messing about a lot to get things going, Slackware could be a good learning experience. 18:57:02 You might also want to check out one of the *BSDs. 18:57:26 For something more "everyday" but still not a mainstream distro, not sure. Damn Small Linux? 18:58:04 I'd say Arch is fine as an easier Slackware 18:58:24 Deewiant: except that's a misguided goal 18:58:41 either you want to get familiar with linux, i.e. slackware 18:58:43 Meh, I'm skeptical about BSD, as I am about solaris/derivatives and other funny kernerls/os's. I tried DSL, and although it was Debian, it failed. Not my kind of thing.. leaves you way in the cold - I felt. I mean, I've never really felt comfortable in Linux, ever, so Arch is looking good and so is slackware. GoboLinux is out because it's too non-standard 18:58:47 or you want something for every-day usage, i.e. something else entirely 18:59:07 Why couldn't one become familiar with linux with an every-day distro 18:59:09 Hiato: BSD actually predates linux, by a long shot 18:59:17 Deewiant: You could. But if it's one of your specific goals... 18:59:32 I think the familiarity comes naturally with use 18:59:51 slackware can still be valuable, it really depends on what you want 18:59:52 Deewiant: Could, but where's the fun? ehird: Yep :P Read up a bit (a lot) in the past 18:59:54 Hell, I think I get /too/ familiar just trying to get rid of warnings and errors in dmesg and then in Xorg.0.log ;-) 19:00:27 Hiato: Slackware might "leave you out in the cold" to start with -- though its interactive installer is helpful. 19:00:36 Hiato: Well, there's the offset in that an everyday distro is more fun to use when you're not specifically tinkering and messing about in order to learn linux ;-) 19:00:40 Well, interactive is a stretch: Basically, you run it and it tells you what to do next and you have to figure out how ;-) 19:00:46 Treasurehunt installation! 19:00:54 Well, it does give you pointers. 19:01:19 ehird: :P Deewiant: yeah, I realise, which is why I'm leaning towards Arch now... no offense ehird 19:01:36 i still think arch is misguided 19:01:58 there's two poles, down-dirty and high-level... arch tries to be the latter by starting from the former 19:02:03 which is kind of silly 19:03:01 Hrmm... ok, so fundamentally, technically, it's not cool. Deewiant, do you use it? PS: it does have a much catchier description: a lightweight and flexible Linux® distribution that tries to Keep It Simple. 19:03:13 Yeah, I'm on Arch64 right now 19:03:19 My laptop runs Gentoo 19:03:24 gentoo? 19:03:29 disregard all of Deewiant's opinions, plz 19:03:50 Less effort to keep running Gentoo than to reinstall :-P 19:03:53 I see, well, I'm not in the mood for massive source compiling/downloading, so no gentoo/bintoo/saboyan etc 19:04:16 ehird: lol :P 19:04:56 I still like its USE flags idea, being able to set features on a per-package basis, leaving out what you don't need... but being able to install stuff in seconds instead of minutes or hours does outweigh that benefit :-P 19:05:42 Deewiant: macports has variants, essentially use flags 19:05:46 but less fine-grained, which is fine by me 19:06:03 of course, that's uncool, i mean. 19:06:07 I did flip between Arch and Gentoo on the laptop, though... something didn't work in Arch (I think it was the frame buffer settings) but did in Gentoo for some reason so I went with Gentoo 19:06:15 I wasn't in the mood for figuring stuff out 19:06:53 ehird: How does that work? Basically multiple different packages which provide the same virtual package or something like that? 19:07:07 Well, not that it really makes a difference, but according to DW: Slackware:14 Arch:16 19:07:24 if you want popularity, why are you looking for something obscure :P 19:07:32 slackware is one of the oldest distros fwiw 19:07:46 I believe it's the second-oldest still active one, after Debian 19:07:48 few months older than debian 19:07:50 err 19:07:52 Whaat 19:07:59 ehird: :P I know, just wanted to see what was on the web :P 19:08:00 slackware = 16 July 1993 19:08:06 debian = 16 August 1993 19:08:09 says wikipedia 19:08:19 I distinctly seem to remember being annoyed at the fact that slackware wasn't older than debian 19:08:25 haha 19:08:44 Maybe it was just at debian's age then 19:08:53 well, slackware was just a barely-modified SLS to start with it seems 19:08:57 so arguably it originated in 1992 19:09:17 Well yeah, arguably Ubuntu originated in 1993 ;-P 19:09:21 XD 19:09:39 er, what is going on here, where's the frinedly iso? ftp://ftp.is.co.za/mirror/ftp.slackware.com/pub/slackware/ 19:09:52 Slackware, friendly? Surely you jest 19:09:54 you didn't specify friendly as a requirement. 19:10:00 but 19:10:03 maybe wrong directory 19:10:05 * ehird takes a look 19:10:18 isolinux? 19:10:22 Yes; go one directory level upwards. 19:10:25 .. beats me 19:10:26 yep 19:10:28 oh, ok 19:10:28 wrong directory 19:10:29 And take slackware-12.2-iso or something. 19:10:36 "isolinux" is just the boot system thingie. 19:10:37 yeppers 19:10:52 Haven't used slackware in a long while, and never installed it myself 19:11:01 Hiato: http://www.slackware.com/install/ 19:11:10 might be worth printing that out / keeping it open on a separate machine. 19:11:12 s/might/will/ 19:11:38 er, ah, now that's a problem. Slackware>700mb's 19:12:00 Grab an older version :-P 19:12:13 You can make a small slackware installation, probably with the new versions too. 19:12:17 Just don't install everything. 19:12:28 You might not need all the isos 19:12:30 Hiato: why is that a problem? The actual install won't be that bg 19:12:33 *big 19:12:38 if you disable most things 19:13:00 It's the download that's the problem. I can only use 700mb's before the 20th or bust 19:13:13 ouch 19:13:17 I installed slackware 3.2 back in 1997 or so when it came with a Finnish computer magazine; and their installation CD was borken. Package descriptions were missing for a couple of categories, had to choose what to install based on package names only. And it was my first Linux experience. That wasn't friendly. 19:13:18 Hmh, why doesn't irssi send a message when I press keypad enter 19:13:29 Hiato: want me to send you a disk in the post? XD 19:13:43 fizzie: I'm sure you said that in 2005 or something 19:13:48 * ehird = obsessive log reader 19:13:52 ehird: Probably; I tend to repeat myself. 19:13:58 ehird: I would love it, here's a mackerel in return 19:14:07 Hiato: ooh! Legal B Nomic tender! 19:14:12 deal 19:14:23 ;) 19:16:07 back to my [non] life-altering decision, I can comprimise and take Zenwalk, or do as the Deewaint does and take Arch. Is it worth the compromise? 19:16:40 Slackware, download it via carrier pigeon 19:16:56 ehird: we have bad reception 19:17:07 Hiato: thus carrier pigeon. Here's some documentation: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt 19:17:54 XD :D and any combination of the letters "l", "o", "r" and "f" 19:18:13 Deewiant: re - macports variants 19:18:13 vim @7.2.065 (editors) 19:18:14 Variants: athena, big, cscope, gtk1, gtk2, huge, motif, nls, perl, 19:18:16 puredarwin, python, ruby, small, tcl, tiny, universal, 19:18:18 xim 19:18:23 with each octet separated by whitestuff and blackstuff. ? 19:18:27 the tcl portfile defining it just has "variant foo { ... }" blocks that override the global definition 19:18:28 Hiato: :D 19:20:48 ehird: Wait, macports installs from source? 19:20:58 Deewiant: yes, irritatingly 19:21:02 but, it's fast, generally 19:21:17 Deewiant: it could be done in a binary package manager 19:21:18 Why bitch at me for using Gentoo then :-P 19:21:26 instead of tweaking cflags, it'd just point to a different binary tarball 19:21:29 ehird: Yes, it could, which is why I was asking for details on how it works 19:21:41 combining variants would be non-trivial 19:21:57 Deewiant: gentoo has more of an attitude problem regarding it than macports ;-) 19:22:26 Meh, I don't humanize distros, I don't care about their attitude :-P 19:22:45 hey, who wants to buy me a pc that I can write an x11 WM on for no reason>??????? 19:22:47 ok, after checking forums, Zenwalk it is *conversation has taken carrier pidgen over my head* 19:23:01 What say forums 19:23:03 Hiato: a pox be upon you 19:23:19 MacPorts isn't even that fast on my one-gigahurtz G4 PPC; I remember doing a "port upgrade outdated" after a year or two of inactivity and it took several hours. 19:23:47 2ghz intel core 2 duo >>> 1ghz G4 PPC, I'd assume 19:24:11 Deewiant: well, it's the fact that Zenwalk forums respond nicely to questions like this: 19:24:12 Hello, I'm COMPLETELY new to Linux. So I have a few questions about it xD 19:24:12 If I install Zenwalk, will I lose the programs I had installed on Windows? 19:24:12 Also will I lose my files? :S sorry, rather dumb questions ^_^; 19:24:12 Ehird: ... :( I tried 19:24:12 Probably, but I don't have such EVIL CAPITALIST MONEY-HUGGER hardware. 19:24:22 Hiato: yes, you will. 19:24:27 unless you have them on a separate partition. 19:24:31 or, you know. back them up 19:24:41 ehird: that's not my question... 19:24:52 what is then 19:24:54 O_o I can't believe you believed that was me 19:24:57 19:24 Also will I lose my files? :S sorry, rather dumb questions ^_^; 19:25:00 oh 19:25:01 i see 19:25:02 sorry 19:25:04 i 19:25:06 totally misread 19:25:06 http://support.zenwalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=9346, somewhere there 19:25:08 XDDD 19:25:18 Hiato: Arch forums don't, then? 19:25:30 i think i just indirectly insulted Hiato's intelligence by mistake. ouch 19:25:32 * Hiato blushes 19:25:45 haven't checked them 19:25:47 ehird 19:25:49 all is forgiven :P 19:26:01 Hiato: thanks, idiot. Wait, disregard that <_< 19:26:02 Are you sure you want to associate with people who aren't all "AH HA HA YOU STUPEF STUPIDO" on the Interwebs? 19:26:31 They sound... abnormal. 19:26:31 fizzie: very true, and highly valid 19:26:43 let me ask you then: Zenwalk vs Arch 19:26:50 Debian. :p 19:26:54 " Also, spaces and symbols like '*' can confuse the Linux inner workings ('kernel'). " 19:27:00 Issue with zenwalk: they're all retards. 19:27:06 :-D 19:27:12 .. fizzie: I'll tryu again :P ehird: lol, heh 19:27:23 ehird: :-DDDD 19:27:28 inner workings ('kernel') 19:27:33 ok, Arch it is :D 19:27:37 er :P 19:28:00 THINK..AND READ BEFORE UPGRADING - amuch better topic in the Newb forums 19:28:40 Anyway, I don't know anything about either distro, so I can't really comment. (But Debian's netinst .iso is 145 megs, and contains the base system; then you can choose what other packages you want to download; so at least it fulfills that one arbitrary criterion.) 19:28:50 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 19:29:24 * Hiato whips out his big bag o distros 19:30:16 Hiato: try linux from scratch 19:30:18 you know 19:30:23 in case you're suicidal 19:30:36 and, like, want to perform one last senseless, pointless act before leaving this earth. 19:30:41 then you should try lfs. 19:31:07 Oh, and if you feel like it, you can do Slackware too; just avoid the full .isos, pick up a suitable boot disk and the network.dsk image, then install over the network. It will not be friendly at all, though. 19:31:38 I have tried, and not really liked: Ubuntu x.xx, DSL, Austrami, PC-Linux {Mini-me}, Mach boot, SLED 10, SliTaz, TinyMe, Mepis, FC, RHL, Mandrake, Mandirva and a bunch of others 19:31:56 what's your main issue with them? 19:33:05 I just felt, well, I couldn't mess around, or that I wasn't supposed to. When I broke things, they magically healed and I was left none the wiser. Everything's a wizard (not necessarily bad), but get's frustrating. 19:33:26 fizze: will keep that in mind 19:33:51 Well, LFS is certainly something where you're supposed to mess around. 19:34:12 If it's any indicator, I liked Puppy - and still do. It's simple, stuff works, you fix what you break, the essentials are all there, but the rest can be done (with relative ease) 19:34:14 Hiato: slackware would be pretty much perfect then 19:34:25 when you mess up slackware, it doesn't work until you find out what's wrong and you fix it :-P 19:34:35 note: that is simultaneously very annoying 19:34:54 define "mess up" here 19:34:58 fizzie: understood, on both notes. ehird: yeah, but it's better in a snese 19:35:18 Deewiant: "i did something, this something was incorrect, the results are not correct" 19:35:26 Deewaint: change device0 to device1 or mess with other stuff in xorg.conf, just to see what it does 19:35:27 I've yet to use a system which wasn't like that :-P 19:35:53 for example. Or change/stop start-up scipts 19:35:53 Deewiant: yes, but it's usually at a higher level 19:36:06 mess with the HAL, etc etc 19:36:53 How can stuff possibly work automatically if you break a start-up script :-P 19:37:04 that's how I (and most of humanity) learn. Break stuff, look at the pieces, do it again and then work out what it is supposed to do and why it works 19:37:17 technicality :P 19:38:04 Deewiant: A package manager might automatically fix it when upgrading stuff. 19:38:04 Hiato: which would you prefer - everything is a wizard... or nothing is a wizard? 19:38:12 that's Mandrake vs Slackware :-p 19:38:30 ehird: can't I float in between, with a slow drift to the nothing side 19:38:44 But yes, that sounds like a fair comparison 19:38:49 that is not an answer :-P 19:38:51 I'd prefer an IRC Wizard. All this free-form writing is so tiresome; with a wizard interface I'd just have to click "Next" every now and then. 19:38:52 and I'd go with the nothing one 19:39:28 Hmm, it seems that switching to Marvell's sk98lin driver and setting Moderation=Static as an option has made my machine work even whilst downloading torrents, hoorays \o/ 19:39:30 fizzie: forming grammatical sentences is so HARD, i'd prefer to just be given options... whenever I get just one phrase wrong i get asked what i meant 19:39:32 it's scary!! 19:39:37 blarg, well, it looks like with my ridiculous restrictions, I'm going to have to go for Arch or bust 19:39:43 * ehird grump 19:39:55 Hiato: bust linux 19:40:04 good distro name there 19:40:08 Sounds not entirely work-safe. 19:40:35 Symptoms previously included: all processes using about 6000-10000% the CPU time even after the torrent client was closed 19:40:51 'We guarantee to break something, or your sourcecode back' 19:43:56 There's a curious network driver thing, also: the r8169 in an older kernel used to generate a ginormous number of "dropped" packets. 19:44:03 Ifconfig output: "RX packets:67776111 errors:0 dropped:423893525723034 overruns:0 frame:0" 19:44:16 Heh, nice. 19:44:18 And that number increased by something like 100 million packets every second. 19:44:27 This 2.6.28 doesn't seem to do that any more. 19:44:58 The annoying thing about this is that sk98lin is a third-party driver I have to get from marvell.com :-/ 19:49:19 Oh well; I have to use the horrible nvidia binary blob driver too, since the second monitor I have is pivotable but the open-source 'nv' driver disables all (2D too) acceleration if I want a rotated image. 19:50:12 This one's not a binary blob; it comes with an install.sh which patches the linux source tree (and unsuccessfully—had to manually correct a broken Kconfig file for 'make menuconfig' to run) 19:50:43 Which is in some ways even more annoying because it's a bit trickier to install than just a blob. 19:51:26 did Deewiant just use a — on IRC? 19:51:29 commendable 19:51:48 I was using the fglrx driver but now I've switched to radeonhd (no acceleration supported for my card model!) because fglrx would lock up the whole machine if I accidentally restarted X 19:51:50 Oh, the nvidia driver also has a horrible installation script which touches all kinds of places. I just use the Debian-packaged version, I'm not so interested in having the newest released ones. 19:52:30 sk98lin doesn't have an Arch PKGBUILD, I was thinking of making one but I guess that'd require me to duplicate much of the install.sh logic myself and it'd probably be too much work to keep up-to-date 19:52:41 And Lexmark's Linux drivers also had a horrible installation shell script. And so did some vmware product. It seems to be a habit. I usually just read them and do the steps manually, since I don't feel comfortable running them. 19:53:41 Yay, about 90 minutes of torrenting and 'time man man >/dev/null' still completes in less than 0.1 seconds 19:54:07 (As opposed to 5-7 seconds previously.) 19:55:38 Hmm, what the hell happened to google's favicon 19:55:54 It's positively hideous 19:56:00 http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2009/01/new-google-favicon.html 19:56:46 my fucking god 19:56:52 fire whoever did this 19:57:22 I was fine with the previous change though the old one is the best, but this one sucks :-P 19:59:07 Lexmark's linux drivers also include a full copy of Sun's Java 1.4.2 runtime. Probably some configuration dialog or something was done as a Java application. 20:00:10 Engfeh, that icon. 20:00:24 -!- alex89ru has joined. 20:00:36 Engfeh? 20:00:50 An exclamation of disgust. 20:00:52 I may need to start running a local proxy here just so I can override the google.com/favicon.ico URL. 20:01:02 Heh. 20:01:25 just use greasemonkey 20:01:37 Or https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3176 20:01:42 Then I'd need to do that for all installations. 20:01:50 Or no, it seems that's only for bookmarks 20:02:12 Or use w3m and forget about retarded graphics 20:02:53 There's an about:config entry called browser.chrome.favicons in Firefox. 20:03:05 Based on the name, toggling that true -> false might make them all go away. 20:03:15 Yep, it does. 20:03:19 ooh. 20:03:33 I will do that right after I switch to linux and use a 1000 sloc WM. 20:03:34 See also browser.chrome.site_icons 20:03:51 Yes, I'm seeing the kb.mozillazone.org description of that right now. 20:05:08 hmm 20:05:11 doesn't hide the icon tho 20:05:13 jusut always default 20:05:26 The site_icons preference will hide them. 20:05:32 Nope. 20:06:38 Oh. Documentation says it will. The favicons one is defined to force the favicon of all sites to the default, but not affect the displaying. (Or the icon displayed for image files.) 20:08:15 The documentation seems to be a filthy liar. 20:10:43 mice are so ergonomically terrible 20:12:03 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 20:18:39 -!- alex89ru has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:22:47 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 21:05:34 -!- Corun has joined. 21:59:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:24:53 back 22:25:22 Du och dina mjölkkor 22:25:33 (is that correct?) 22:26:27 don't look at arch :-P <-- why not? 22:26:37 I dislike it :-P 22:26:56 ehird: Most certainly, but, not necessarily a priority. (PS: You should make a web-wizard distro selector, you have all the right questions) <-- that exists 22:26:59 * AnMaster looks for url 22:27:05 Yes. 22:27:07 He said "a". 22:27:15 As in. 22:27:17 Yet another. 22:27:18 http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/ 22:27:23 Yes. We know. 22:27:24 don't know how good it is 22:27:35 it did suggest arch and gentoo for me :) 22:27:45 and I already used them 22:27:57 * ehird notes that AnMaster buffers his output and never reads input while calculating & sending output. 22:28:09 also slackware is painful, I know, I used it 22:28:13 One of those "which OS are you?" questionnaires also had at least a couple of Linux distributions in there. 22:28:14 worst package manager ever 22:28:23 Depends on your definition of worst. 22:28:26 no package manager 22:28:33 Well, what Deewiant said. 22:28:34 it cannot be the worst because it doesn't exist 22:28:38 It doesn't manage packages, it just installs them :P 22:28:39 at least linux from scratch doesn't pretend to have a working package manager 22:28:44 while slackware DOES 22:28:49 no it doesn't 22:28:50 I wasn't aware that it did 22:29:03 Deewiant, well it has packages 22:29:08 Deewiant: it has a script that takes a tarball and runs ./configure && make && make install 22:29:10 essentially 22:29:13 I used slackware for a couple of years without touching the package manager. It wasn't very much advertised. 22:29:19 not a package manager, it doesn't purport to be one 22:29:20 ehird, not slackware no, I remember installing it 22:29:24 and it's not exactly advertised 22:29:25 binary packages, *.tgz 22:29:41 same for some other packages I downloaded 22:29:59 AnMaster: btw, if you've got a Befunge-93 interpreter handy run on latest (november) mycology and let me know if any BADs ensue 22:30:05 All it does is unpack a tarball to / 22:30:10 then run doinst.sh 22:30:14 well, install/doinst.sh 22:30:29 and it can tell you what's in ionstall/slack-desc 22:30:50 Then it can remove a "package" that it's installed. And upgrade, which is really a special case of remove&install. 22:30:52 Deewiant, I don't have any verified one no, cfunge has a 93 mode, which changes space rules and so on, but won't actually forbid 98 instructions in general 22:30:57 ehird: yes, I knew that 22:31:03 Deewiant: i'm talking to AnMaster 22:31:08 I have been thinking of making that compile time mode for extra speed ;P 22:31:09 i.e., it's not a package manager. 22:31:17 with possibly greater emulation then 22:31:18 ehird: You directed a line at me 22:31:29 yeah that was ages ago :P 22:31:45 ehird: Yeah, and I responded to it when I noticed it :-P 22:31:46 ehird, also that counts as package manager without dependency handling 22:31:53 installm, uninstall, upgrade 22:31:54 AnMaster: it doesn't, though 22:32:01 only dep tracking is missing 22:32:02 or rather 22:32:06 your definition of package manager is wrong 22:32:16 and I wouldn't consider dep tracking to be important 22:32:20 it's only the worst package manager because your brain has the definition package manager = dependency-tracking etc 22:32:24 working towards the ballmer peak now 22:32:35 minimalism isn't for everyone 22:32:48 I did that web-test and it suggested me Debian and Ubuntu. I currently use Debian and Ubuntu. Clearly it must be infallible, based on my sample of N=1 persons. 22:32:50 ehird, so what is it? 22:32:53 if nto a package manager 22:32:57 what is the name for it 22:33:06 AnMaster: A package manager. Your definition is just wrong. 22:33:22 ehird, hm? I said I didn't include dep tracking in package manager 22:33:27 but it is something I *want* 22:33:33 it is an optional feature 22:33:34 Fine, then it isn't for you. 22:34:03 ehird, indeed, so I stick with something slightly more advanced while still no silly gui config stuff 22:34:06 such as gentoo and arch 22:34:14 ehird, also I have installed LFS 22:34:18 So why is it the worst package manager you've ever used? 22:34:18 and CLFS and HLFS 22:34:21 You haven't explained that yet. 22:35:23 That webtest gave me gentoo and, interestingly enough, slackware. 22:35:23 ehird, 1) it lacks the features that are RECOMMENDED, optional but silly to exclude (IMO) 2) it managed to loose track of files, this was around 5 years ago, slackware 9 or 10 I think, it may be better now 22:36:18 the distribution chooser is _heavily_ biased to the mainstream distros. 22:36:26 But, umm, I seem to get every single one. 22:36:31 Well, not Gentoo. 22:36:40 Arch, Kubuntu, Fedora, Mandriva, Slackware, OpenSuSE. 22:36:52 I guess "just show all distros" always gets the right one, but it's not exactly clever... 22:37:18 Well, I only got two out of it. 22:37:32 ehird, that differs, I get two, Arch and Gentoo 22:37:59 actually I don't get Arch if I select that I have a 64-bit CPU, which is odd, Arch have x86_64 support nowdays 22:38:05 I think it's because I answer "I don't care" to quite a few questions because, well, I don't. 22:38:10 Ah, 64-bit might make a difference. 22:38:22 I have a feeling I sort-of answered the questions so that I'd get Debian (and coincidentally Ubuntu) because I happen to be happy with this stuff. 22:38:26 Deewiant, yes it does 22:38:52 Silly if it assumes I want a 64-bit system (which is the case, but still) 22:39:11 * ehird tweaks answers to try and get better results. 22:39:21 Aha 22:39:25 Uh... is there a way to move backwards in the test? 22:39:29 for x86_64 it suggests gentoo and slackware 22:39:33 Now it gave me Slackware+Mandriva+Kubuntu+OpenSUSE+Ubuntu+Arch 22:39:37 fizzie, seems no, you could just restart it 22:39:39 +Ubuntu 22:39:40 Deewiant: ha 22:39:45 Deewiant, no gentoo? 22:39:49 Nope, no gentoo 22:39:53 strange 22:39:59 I think I added one more "don't care" than last time 22:40:04 That's a lot of questions to answer if I just want to change one. 22:40:06 To the development packages one 22:40:11 Okay, by lying through my teeth I get another huge pile. XD 22:40:12 The wording sucks, really 22:40:22 No, I don't /need/ development packages 22:40:33 I don't /need/ X packages for all X because I'm smart enough to get em elsewhere 22:40:47 * ehird tweaks answers further 22:40:48 Deewiant, anyway on x86/x86_64 you generally want a 64-bit distro, because a) multilib means you can run 32-bit just fine b) more registers more than compensates for increased pointer size 22:40:50 But it probably thinks "aha you don't /want/ them" 22:40:59 AnMaster: I don't run multilib, I run a 32-bit chroot 22:41:03 for sparc or ppc b isn't true 22:41:15 Deewiant, well both works the same way as far as the kernel cares 22:41:16 * ehird lies through some more teeth. 22:41:16 b) is a tradeoff; CPU for memory+disk 22:41:26 C'mon, gimme slackware. 22:41:29 Dammit you stupid machine. 22:41:33 A huge bag is not a good result 22:41:33 And it depends on the program anyway. 22:41:41 Deewiant, double register count more than compensates for double pointer size 22:41:49 in more than half of the cases 22:42:05 One thing I really like about slackware is that it doesn't mess with 3rd-party apps. 22:42:06 Yes, you are emphatically agreeing with what I said. :-P 22:42:13 Debian is an especially bad offender there 22:42:17 Heh, now I get Fedora, Ubuntu, Gentoo, Arch, Debian, Slackware if I tell it I don't care about the package management (that question is a bit silly, too, since a couple of answers are specific package formats and not about the abilities of the package management) and don't choose the 64-bit option. 22:42:24 Deewiant, an -m32 build of cfunge with 32-bit cells is about 5-10% slower on this computer, nothing else differs in build 22:42:33 for 64-bit cells the difference is around 70% faster 22:42:41 which is only to be expected 22:43:00 that is 70% faster for 64-bit build 22:43:03 Yeah, the package management question was really stupid as well. 22:43:14 Hell, /most/ of them were. 22:43:16 fizzie, yep agreed 22:43:36 I should write my own chooser that always gives either Slackware or Ubuntu. 22:43:37 it was just one of the *least* stupid wizard style linux selector thingies I knew 22:44:05 and it did give the right answers for me, that is the ones I ended up with after testing lots and lots of distros before 22:44:38 http://www.tuxs.org/chooser/ for the win 22:44:46 * ehird answers hardcore-style 22:44:59 I bet answering "Expert" to "How would you rate your technical skills?" makes it mark you as lower than "Beginner" 22:45:11 * AnMaster used red hat (back when it wasn't fedora, red hat 6.0...), OpenSuSE (don't remember version), Slackware, Debian before ending up with Gentoo and Arch 22:45:16 Ubuntu was hardly around back then 22:45:18 not big yet 22:45:21 I answered "expert" simply because I know many professionals that don't know jack shit 22:45:27 I tried it afterwards 22:45:28 horrible 22:45:30 If your PC is fairly new and you are looking for a more technical distribution to install on your hard drive then try 22:45:31 Debian or Slackware 22:45:40 If your PC is a few years old and you are looking for a more technical distribution to install on your hard drive then try 22:45:41 Debian or Slackware 22:45:52 Umm, gee, that's some variation. 22:45:57 ehird: Note that it says "more info on Gentoo or Slackware" 22:46:02 hahahahahah 22:46:04 I bet answering "Expert" to "How would you rate your technical skills?" makes it mark you as lower than "Beginner" <-- well I *know* I'm expert, since I'm able to help even with the tricker questions in ##linux a lot of the time 22:46:31 AnMaster: that's pretty arrogant... 22:46:35 http://distrogue.awardspace.com/ was nice 22:46:41 It gave me "Perfect match!" but nothing else 22:46:46 Deewiant: awardspace? srsly? XD 22:46:50 ehird, and I successfully cross compiled a hardened LFS, for which there is no guide :P 22:46:55 from ppc to x86 22:47:12 Wow, you did something for which a guide did not exist 22:47:12 [[AnMaster's ego shoots off the charts]] 22:47:12 there is a hardened guide and a cross compiling one 22:47:18 compiling them isn't that easy 22:47:21 Wow, you combined two guides 22:47:26 Deewiant: i know, I need guides _all the time_ 22:47:28 Deewiant, hah :P 22:47:29 i mean 22:47:30 breathing? 22:47:33 that shit's hard, man 22:47:40 ehird, ok here is how:~ 22:47:46 1) Breath in 22:47:49 Breathing guide: http://www.breathingmatters.com/bodybm.htm 22:47:55 2) Wait a very short time 22:48:01 3) Breath out 22:48:06 4) GOTO 1 22:48:10 AnMaster: ok, but how do I combine this with the eating guide????? 22:48:12 that is the basics 22:48:16 ehird: xD 22:48:18 combining guides is _really hard_ 22:48:25 ehird, depends on what version of the eating guide 22:48:40 ehird, also a hardened cross compiling toolchain is quite complex in fact 22:48:48 4. Do you need a 3D desktop? <- Fuck off, distro chooser XD 22:48:56 ehird, it never asked me that? 22:48:58 5. Will you be using your system for gaming? <- excuse me, isn't this for Linux? 22:49:04 AnMaster: deewiant linked to http://distrogue.awardspace.com/ 22:49:05 or is this another one? 22:49:06 "Here are the results: Perfect match!" Heh, that's funny. 22:49:06 ah 22:49:22 4. Do you need a 3D desktop? <- Fuck off, distro chooser XD <-- heck I need to *NOT* have oen 22:49:23 http://desktoplinuxathome.com/distro.html seems okay 22:49:23 one* 22:49:31 fizzie: also "This page has been viewed times." 22:49:42 Holy fuck 22:49:43 I got OpenSUSE :( 22:49:44 I got a lot of results 22:49:51 fizzie: Do you have cookies enabled? 22:50:10 wait 22:50:12 Deewiant: Nope. That might be it. 22:50:26 I was hoping "Yes" so I wouldn't have to do it again :-P 22:50:56 Yeah, cookies was it 22:51:01 http://desktoplinuxathome.com/distro.html, my results in order: 22:51:02 AnMaster: deewiant linked to http://distrogue.awardspace.com/ <-- it suggests FreeBSD, PC-BSD, SabayonLinux, Pardus, Gentoo, Arch, "Frugalware", Debian, Fedora, openSUSE, mandriva and more 22:51:03 nice 22:51:06 some aren't even linux 22:51:14 debian, slackware, vector(???????????????????????????????????????????????????), gentoo 22:51:16 then it goes on to 3 stars 22:51:18 AnMaster: no 22:51:20 see the lines beklow 22:51:22 Perfect match! 22:51:23 or 22:51:24 it lists the problem 22:51:29 (it lists every distro and then whether it matched) 22:51:33 ah 22:51:34 right 22:51:38 http://www.vectorlinux.com/ wtf. 22:51:40 Gives me Gentoo,Arch,Frugalware,FreeBSD-Stable,PC-BSD as "perfect matches" 22:51:42 who uses that 22:51:43 ehird, gentoo was at top 22:51:46 for me 22:51:53 but why *bsd 22:51:59 they aren't linux 22:52:04 yes I use freebsd and openbsd 22:52:07 but not as desktop 22:52:34 http://www.vectorlinux.com/ wtf. <-- shiny! 22:52:46 http://polishlinux.org/choose/quiz/ 22:52:48 ^ THAT seems good 22:52:52 good questions, good results 22:53:00 I got {Gentoo,{Free,Open,Net}BSD,Slackware} 22:53:19 http://desktoplinuxathome.com/distro.html gave me Ubuntu,Mandriva,Vector,Fedora,Gentoo,Mepis as ones with more than 3 smileys 22:53:20 out of which I'd consider using {NetBSD,Slackware}, but I can understand why it gave the others 22:53:27 3. How important stability and maturity is for you? 22:53:27 very much 22:53:27 quite much 22:53:30 quite much? 22:53:36 err what? 22:53:36 it's from a polish site 22:53:38 give em some slack 22:53:39 aha 22:53:45 ehird, ...ware 22:53:45 AnMaster: it's a continuum from a lot to not at al 22:53:46 l 22:53:46 I hate the way saying that I have a new computer causes them to give me bloatware 22:53:57 22:53 ehird, ...ware <-- Wut>? 22:54:05 give em some slack ehird, ...ware 22:54:05 wareware 22:54:07 ,,, 22:54:08 ....* 22:54:09 o 22:54:11 jeez 22:54:13 ,,,,,,,,,,,,, 22:54:20 someone else try the polish one 22:54:21 it looks good. 22:54:22 polishlinux.org times out for me 22:54:26 huh 22:54:26 WFM 22:54:37 Polish says: FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Debian, Gentoo, NetBSD. 22:54:38 http://polishlinux.org.nyud.net/choose/quiz/ seems to work 22:54:41 It seems very BSD-friendly. 22:54:53 I'd just ignore the BSD results, tbh 22:55:14 ehird, question 7 is not good 22:55:16 Meh, the Coral cache is slow 22:55:20 it seems to contrast like this: 22:55:28 binary, easy - source, hard 22:55:33 except it isn't like that 22:55:34 no 22:55:35 it doesn't 22:55:41 I have seen binary and hard to use 22:55:42 if you read it, it doesn't :P 22:55:44 and source and easy 22:55:55 it's a crucial thing for me - I often test different software and don't have the time to play with compiling from sources, looking for dependencies and so on 22:55:56 quite much - easy installation is a big plus; still I can compile and build a package once in a while 22:55:56 not much - nice package management system temps, but I usually prefer to prepare packages myself so I know what exact functionality I get 22:55:57 well 22:56:04 I want easy and source, with fine level of control 22:56:10 you can just as easily read "build" as "make own package" 22:56:18 some system to set features I want, then have the system to build them for me 22:56:30 like say, WITH_KDE=yes 22:56:34 or so 22:56:37 like freebsd uses 22:56:38 that's an irrelevant detail 22:56:40 you set a few flags 22:56:53 and then it should be easy to use, track all deps 22:56:56 and so on 22:57:07 you seem to have a penchant for ignoring the bigger picture and concentrating on minutae... 22:57:15 Oh darn, the nyud.net one sends the results to the non-cached one anyway 22:57:23 Deewiant: um 22:57:26 nyud.net couldn't handle POST 22:57:26 duh 22:57:31 it caches per-URL... 22:57:36 yes, quite 22:57:39 1. Gentoo Linux 22:57:40 2. FreeBSD 22:57:40 3. OpenBSD 22:57:40 4. NetBSD 22:57:40 5. Slackware Linux 22:57:42 I did not realize it in time 22:57:45 is what the polish one suggested 22:57:50 And the main site still times out for me 22:57:51 well it is missing arch 22:57:58 lol i wonder if you can get it to NOT suggest bsd 22:58:04 Deewiant: use a proxy? 22:58:33 "Why are you going to try Linux? " (http://desktoplinuxathome.com/distro.html) 22:58:42 AnMaster: leave it blank 22:58:44 worked for me 22:58:45 "I'm already a Linux user" is missing 22:58:53 so leave it blank 22:59:06 Debian, Fedora, KateOS, Gentoo, Ubuntu 22:59:17 Wonder why that site doesn't work from here 22:59:18 I like that it has Gentoo and Ubuntu in the same list 22:59:20 kateos looks polish 22:59:25 which would make sense considering the site 22:59:32 http://www.sabayonlinux.org/ <-- worst distro ever or worst distro ever 22:59:33 ok it suggests ubuntu first, then gentoo, mandriva, vector, Mepis, Slackware, Fedora 22:59:33 wtf 22:59:36 that is crazy 22:59:40 yes I tried ubuntu 22:59:41 AnMaster: yeah it sucks :P 22:59:42 worst one ever 22:59:49 there are distros worse than ubuntu 22:59:51 ehird: "for desktop, not a programmer" + "newbie" + "no time for learning" + nothing else concerns me => no BSDs. 22:59:56 case in point: mandrake 22:59:58 & pclinuxos 22:59:58 ehird, well opensuse comes close 23:00:03 Quiz doesn't work in links 23:00:04 fizzie: :D 23:00:06 ehird, I haven't used mandriva/mandrake 23:00:11 opensuse isn't bad 23:00:16 not my cup of tea, but not bad 23:00:33 (Actually that sort of settings give Mandriva, openSUSE, Aurox, Xandros, Fedora.) 23:00:39 anyway I used quite a few of them, and that chooser is the worst so far 23:00:43 fizzie, which chooser? 23:00:57 polishlinux has been the best for me 23:01:00 the questions aren't stupid 23:01:03 which is nice 23:01:25 AnMaster: The Polish one. 23:01:28 oh I never heard of this vectorlinux before 23:01:39 fizzie, the polish one wasn't too bad, except the language 23:01:50 it missed arch 23:01:55 maybe it isn't in it's database 23:03:26 anyway personally I have found the distros I like, gentoo (primary desktop); arch (low end [Pentium 3 or lower] headless development computer); FreeBSD (remote server in datacenter); OpenBSD (dedicated firewalls) 23:03:30 At last: Gentoo, FreeBSD, Arch, Debian, PLD 23:03:35 PLD? 23:03:41 what one is that? 23:03:44 http://polishlinux.org/linux/pld/ 23:03:59 PLD took some best features from couple of other distributions: RPM format from Red Hat (but PLD uses RPM-s capabilities much more efficiently), 23:04:00 it didn't recommend that to me 23:04:01 RPM is a feature? 23:04:02 what 23:04:12 ehird: A bug, then? :-P 23:04:13 ehird, I thought RPM was a bug 23:04:16 dammit 23:04:18 I was about to say that 23:04:22 to hell with both of you 23:04:27 ^_______^ 23:04:34 * ehird considers filing a bug report for every RPM-based distro 23:04:35 There seem to be quite many Polish distributions in there; surprisingly. 23:04:38 ehird, at least it was back when I used red hat 6.0... Oh the nostalgia! RPM hell! 23:04:42 fizzie: or, rather, not surprisingly 23:04:49 I hadn't heard of Aurox either. 23:04:53 It's a polish site :-P 23:04:59 fizzie, nor have I 23:05:16 anyway that vectorlinux thing, anyone ever heard of it before? 23:05:21 nope 23:05:22 It's website look... shiny? 23:05:23 yep 23:05:29 yes that is the right word, shiny 23:05:31 looks rubbish 23:05:35 Deewiant, you heard of it before 23:05:37 It's the best; the site says so. 23:05:38 yep 23:05:40 ehird, yes that was what I said :P 23:05:42 AnMaster: "eye candy", more like 23:05:53 shiny -> rubbish 23:06:16 for example for some reason I don't know the buttons on my mobile phone are shiny 23:06:18 I recall it being said that Vector was lightweight, but it might have been compared to Ubuntu or something 23:06:21 you see all the fingerprints on it 23:06:25 black shiny 23:06:34 which IMO is rubbish 23:06:37 But VectorLinux has a DELUXE version! 23:06:39 * ehird considers doing LFS then killing himself 23:07:00 ehird, there is some package manager somewhat like checkinstall 23:07:06 forgot the name for it 23:07:12 anyway made for recording packages for LFS 23:07:18 it solves the uninstall issue 23:07:33 it is in their "hints" section 23:07:37 on the website of lfs I mean 23:08:10 I'm pretty sure that "Go into chroot, run make install, record the differences to a file, then extract from chroot" is pretty trivial to write. 23:08:23 I mean, as these things go. 23:08:26 ehird, I think it was using LD_PRELOAD trick 23:08:29 rather than chroot one 23:08:47 don't remember 23:09:12 I'd prefer a chroot :-P 23:09:17 's what macports uses 23:09:31 ehird, well how do you know the tools you need to install are in there 23:09:32 ehird whats a chroot 23:09:37 I mean, like make and so on 23:09:49 psygnisfive: RTFM 23:09:50 some packages might need obscure tools to install 23:09:56 psygnisfive, man chroot 23:09:59 AnMaster: that's why you copy the whole system to a chroot. 23:10:00 besides a british dialects way of saying truth :p 23:10:11 ah its something in the shell? 23:10:11 ehird, well that will take a while. 4 GB or whatever 23:10:13 hmm 23:10:18 ch root 23:10:20 psygnisfive, not in shell no 23:10:21 AnMaster: do whatever macports does, then. 23:10:29 ehird, I would use chroot + unionfs 23:10:31 AnMaster: also, stop trying to teach psygnisfive. hopeless case. 23:10:31 to avoid copying 23:10:33 :D 23:10:36 it would really rock 23:10:40 ehird shut your face :P 23:10:40 no idea if it has been done 23:10:42 also, that fails when the package modifies existing files 23:10:43 no? 23:10:46 ehird, nop 23:10:51 oh, copy-on-write? 23:10:53 ah i see. 23:10:58 ehird, overlaying fs 23:11:05 okay, that would work splendidly then 23:11:11 and be easy to implement 23:11:31 ehird, and then you check what was changed in the overlaying one, need to handle deleted files (unionfs write specially "whiteout" files for that iirc) 23:11:37 anyway one issue 23:11:50 unionfs isn't in vanilla kernel 23:11:53 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 23:11:54 ehird, just telling me it was a shell command makes was good enough :P 23:12:02 this means you may need to wait for the patchset to be ported 23:12:07 who cares about a vanilla kernel when you're hypothesising your own distro 23:12:12 You can also use a LVM snapshot volume mounted in the chroot; that's copy-on-write. Although looking at changes is then a bit more difficult, with unionfs you nicely get the changed/deleted files easily. 23:12:23 psygnisfive, chroot isn't a shell command, it is a system call 23:12:27 hopeless./ 23:12:27 case. 23:12:29 same thing :P 23:12:39 ehird, because you can't track last sources, you need to wait for it to be ported to last 23:12:48 which means you can't follow bleeding edge 23:12:59 "man chroot" does give here the 'shell command' -- well, it's not a built-in, but anyway -- instead of the system call, though. 23:12:59 fizzie, yes that would work nicely 23:13:04 who honestly cares about a bleeding edge kernel? 23:13:30 ehird, me? at least on my development box, on my desktop I run more stable 23:13:34 Anyone with bleeding edge hardware. :p 23:13:35 still not debian stable 23:13:37 does it really matter though? 23:13:47 ehird, yes because I want to test new features 23:13:47 as long as it's relatively new, does it bother you? 23:13:48 on that box 23:13:57 why are we talking about hardware and kernels 23:14:01 this is not esoteric enough 23:14:07 psygnisfive: because we want to, go away if you don't like it. 23:14:16 ehird, which is why it ran gcc 4.3.2 one week after it was released 23:14:17 And 2.6.28 did really add useful things. Someone xtables-ized the iptables "recent" module, for example, so my SSH knocking thing works for IPv6 now, too. 23:14:21 AnMaster: i guess it falls under the "all programmers are fashion-obsessed nerds with ADHD" axiom 23:14:25 and glibc 2.9 quite fast too 23:14:26 you should be talking about a kernel written in BF! 23:14:34 ehird, you are a programmer too? 23:14:38 yes i am. 23:14:38 I'm pretty sure 23:14:48 ehird, you have ADHD? Would explain a lot :P 23:14:56 That was a metaphor. :P 23:15:04 Just like how by fashion I didn't mean clothes. 23:15:05 hes 13. all 13 year olds have adhd. 23:15:15 its like.. required to be 13 23:15:15 ehird, exactly 23:15:18 if all 13 year olds have ADHD it's hardly ADHD, is it 23:15:27 no, but shut up 23:15:28 i mean, for something to be an actual... thing it has to be non-norm 23:15:29 :P 23:15:41 why? normal things are things! 23:15:54 attention-deficit hyperactivity disposition. :P 23:15:59 ehird, I never care for clothes. Simple classical model blue jeans that aren't pre-worn-out, and t-shirt, and due to climate something thicker over 23:16:12 and AnMaster successfully derails the conversation to an irrelevant topic 23:16:13 like this thing made of fleece 23:16:20 only to have everyone else pull it back again 23:16:23 anmaster is dressed like a lumberjack. 23:16:26 jumper, jacket, sweater? 23:16:29 what is the UK one? 23:16:33 I can't keep them apart 23:16:42 which* 23:17:23 ehird, anyway you derailed it by starting talking about clothes! 23:17:36 no, I didn't talk about clothes 23:17:44 yes 23:17:47 Just like how by fashion I didn't mean clothes. 23:17:53 that's not talking about clothes 23:17:54 the word clothes is there 23:18:01 i googled lumberjack for a humorous picture 23:18:04 ehird, that is meta-talking about not talking about clothes 23:18:04 and this is what i find: http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e98/bolson51/lumberjack.jpg 23:18:14 AnMaster: you are confusing mentioning and changing the topic to 23:18:37 23:15 @@ @run words "sleep eat haskell idle" !! (pred.read.last.words$(@show @dice 1d4)) 23:18:37 23:15 "haskell" 23:18:40 ehird, well I disagree 23:19:14 bbl, going to listen to an one hour radio program :) 23:21:02 "an one" 23:21:12 you real are an master! 23:21:12 huzzah! 23:22:31 psygnisfive, an (one hour) radio program 23:22:34 is the parsing 23:22:52 and "one" begins with vowel sound, thus "an" 23:22:59 actually it doesnt begin with a vowel :) 23:23:05 it because with a "w" sound 23:23:14 but its not written that way for historical reasons. 23:23:29 psygnisfive, doesn't that depend on dialect? 23:23:33 nope! 23:23:41 "one" is always said with initial w. 23:24:09 besides, "an" is not universally used just before vowels 23:24:16 AnMaster: absolutely not 23:24:19 it's a one hour 23:24:27 bbl 23:24:28 an one hour sounds definitively wrong 23:24:41 for instance, its used because the "y" glide as in "a usually red hat" 23:24:43 "a used book" 23:24:46 etc 23:24:52 psygnisfive, as I mentioned my nick are from my initials 23:24:55 so not relevant 23:24:56 cya 23:24:58 REALLY now 23:24:58 i know :P 23:25:01 i was being silly 23:36:31 23:31 read that as "sleep eat haskell die" 23:36:32 23:31 i was like "wow, what a gambler!" 23:36:34 you see 23:36:35 those lines seemed familiar 23:36:39 but then i realised oklopol said them 23:37:13 familiar? 23:37:20 i dunno 23:37:24 just like I knew who would have said tem 23:37:27 them 23:37:34 well yeah, that's not a surprise 23:37:45 i mean i'm pretty oklo 23:59:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 2009-01-10: 00:11:00 alright 00:11:05 i can feel it now 00:11:13 the ballmer peak is 00:11:16 approaching 00:11:38 MUSIC! 00:22:29 flexo, Mozart? Haydn? Händel? 00:22:38 was 00:22:39 nein 00:22:47 flexo, ? 00:22:50 eh? 00:22:50 yep? 00:22:53 what? 00:22:56 exactly 00:22:58 was means what 00:22:58 what is "nein"? 00:23:02 nein is no 00:23:03 :) 00:23:04 ah 00:23:26 i'd have thought everyone knows at least that much german heh 00:23:29 flexo, hm, maybe Liszt? Bach? 00:23:32 nope 00:23:47 don't even know the former 00:23:53 Chopin? 00:23:56 nope 00:24:10 um Beethoven? 00:24:13 nope 00:24:14 wait 00:24:18 how did you manage to do that ? 00:24:27 flexo, it is on my Swedish keyboard... 00:24:33 oh, swedish. okay. 00:24:41 flexo, why would it be hard anyway? 00:24:48 on an american keyboard? 00:25:10 well there is some meta key to enter char sequences I assume? 00:25:13 like number 00:25:26 U+220 or whatever 00:25:30 these days? 00:25:34 unicode. huh. yea. well. maybe. 00:25:35 flexo, isn't there? 00:25:38 i don't know? 00:25:44 is on my german keyboard aswell ;) 00:25:54 well ok 00:26:06 anyway Germany had lots of great composers 00:26:12 congrats on that 00:26:18 flexo, anyway, what about Grieg? 00:26:30 that's the second one i don't know 00:26:44 flexo, which was the first one you didn't know? 00:26:50 Liszt 00:26:52 Also Grieg is from Norway 00:26:59 flexo, ah Liszt was from France 00:27:02 ah well 00:27:04 you know 00:27:08 german-france thingie 00:27:17 :) 00:27:21 Chopin from Poland(sp in English?) 00:27:28 yes 00:27:46 the rest were from Germany, though Händel spent most of his time in UK iirc 00:27:52 oh fuck 00:27:57 flexo, what? 00:28:18 just drank out of my ashtray 00:28:23 same glasses 00:28:23 wtf 00:28:25 same color 00:28:29 you are an alcoholic 00:28:31 (cuba libre in the right one) 00:28:31 -_ 00:28:36 and a smoker 00:28:44 I do not wish to talk to you any more 00:28:55 :) 00:29:38 flexo, just one question 00:29:42 what music was it actually? 00:30:01 Debussy? I assume it isn't something horrible like Wagner 00:30:05 ... 00:30:27 flexo, what? 00:30:38 it *was* Wagner? 00:30:45 no 00:30:50 well 00:30:52 what then? 00:30:55 i kinda like that valkyrie ride though 00:31:03 flexo, personally I can't stand it 00:31:19 oh could be Vivaldi or Verdi too I assume 00:31:24 but i agree with you that wagner sucks 00:31:42 i suppose it's just the movie i associate it with i like 00:32:01 No clue what movie that is. Anyway: What music? 00:32:17 the movie - apocalypse now? 00:32:39 i'm evading your question, don't you see it 00:32:41 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has changed nick to nice. 00:32:45 -!- nice has changed nick to KingOfKarlsruhe. 00:32:52 flexo, well I'm not going to let you evade it any more 00:33:19 well 00:33:26 yes? 00:33:42 you want as honenst answer? 00:34:31 flexo, what could be that bad? 00:34:40 yes 00:34:46 it's somewhat emberassing 00:34:55 flexo, not classical at all!? 00:34:59 when i'm drunk i usually listen to some 70s or 80s disco music :) 00:35:03 oh my 00:35:05 right 00:35:06 that bad 00:35:11 no I don't want more details 00:35:14 haha 00:35:50 i still got that damn taste in my mouth 00:35:55 Béla Bartók? 00:35:56 or 00:35:59 worst of all 00:36:02 Schoenberg!? 00:36:10 don't know neighter 00:36:32 flexo, the latter is like wagner, but worse 00:36:48 also doesn't it just taste cigarettes? 00:36:57 I mean if you smoke them, you shouldn't notice it anyway 00:38:49 no 00:38:56 it tastes like cigarettes, but worse 00:39:12 like solluted cigarettes 00:39:15 with some ash added 00:39:21 probably rather toxic too 00:39:26 but i didn't swallow 00:39:29 i suppose i'll be fine 00:50:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:51:37 * oerjan decides the web solution for Trondheim's new electronic bus cards sucks hedgehogs through a garden hose 00:52:15 WHY THE HECK CAN'T THEY FIND A WAY TO JUST SEND ME AN ORDINARY BILL, SAY EVERY 3 MONTHS 00:52:30 _that_ would have been an actual improvement 01:01:00 i mean, for something to be an actual... thing it has to be non-norm 01:01:14 conclusion: heterosexuals don't really exist 01:05:10 it's a one hour 01:05:26 possibly also, an hour one 01:06:43 23:31 read that as "sleep eat haskell die" 01:06:56 oklopol, you too? 01:08:58 flexo, ah Liszt was from France 01:09:05 wait, i thought he was hungarian... 01:09:15 oerjan, oh must have typoed that 01:09:46 oerjan, you are right, but he worked a lot in Paris 01:09:49 that is why I mixed it up 01:10:44 you are still on positive karma for knowing Grieg was norwegian ;D 01:11:05 oerjan, of course I know of him, and I love the Peer Gynt suites 01:11:26 hmm 01:11:29 and some of his other music, don't remember the opus numbers/names off hand 01:11:43 metal being the contiuation of classical music i suppose i'm allowed to hear that 01:11:45 ah yes i remember a previous discussion 01:11:49 oerjan, what I *don't* like is that Sigurd Jolsefar(sp?) march he made 01:12:07 oerjan, "Från Hollbergs tid" is nice, again that is probably a Swedishism 01:12:14 flexo: NO! metal should be banned! it is a method of torture! 01:12:24 :( 01:12:29 oerjan, agreed 01:13:15 oerjan, anyway, Grieg is IMO one of the all time best, together with Vivaldi, Händel and Mozart 01:13:33 Haydn and Delius are both near the top too 01:13:57 * oerjan should point out he is no expert 01:13:59 Beethoven just below that 01:14:07 oerjan, oh? what do you listen to then? 01:14:27 i nearly never play music myself 01:14:39 * oerjan prefers silence 01:14:41 also I plan to do like the US does, they declare something "terrorism" or "unamerican" 01:15:36 I now declare all rock, metal, rap and country western music to be terrorism and a threat to the world. It is also Unanmasterian 01:15:56 Lets declare war on rock, metal, rap and country western! 01:16:02 oerjan, what do you think? 01:16:09 oh and it's Jorsalfar, the man that is, don't know about the piece 01:16:30 oerjan, I think it is the same, since it is about him 01:16:39 wait a minute i _do_ like rock and country 01:16:48 oh also rock, metal, rap and country western are now declared to no longer be music 01:16:55 oerjan, what? really? 01:16:56 country!? 01:17:07 oerjan, you need therapy 01:17:15 and a few raps, and maybe a couple metals even 01:17:25 flexo: NO! metal should be banned! it is a method of torture! 01:17:29 you said it yourself 01:17:34 that is almost certainly true, although not for that reason 01:17:36 write-once memory 01:17:49 no, but there are always a couple of exceptions to everything :D 01:17:50 oerjan, what reason then? 01:19:17 oerjan, anyway it is weird Germany produced so many famous composers 01:19:20 don't you agree? 01:19:24 sorry, the green goblin behind my ear says i may not answer that 01:19:31 oerjan, eh? 01:19:40 that just made *no* sense whatsoever 01:19:41 oerjan, what reason then? 01:19:45 ah 01:19:57 well 01:20:03 it make almost no sense still 01:20:29 that is almost certainly true, although not for that reason 01:20:37 oerjan, you need therapy 01:20:43 well right 01:20:45 ok 01:20:48 makes sense 01:20:58 oerjan, now throw away the goblin and answer the question 01:21:20 oerjan, err 01:21:22 out of order 01:21:27 wait a minute i _do_ like rock and country 01:21:32 oh also rock, metal, rap and country western are now declared to no longer be music 01:21:32 oerjan, what? really? 01:21:32 country!? 01:21:32 oerjan, you need therapy 01:21:32 and a few raps, and maybe a couple metals even 01:21:33 flexo: NO! metal should be banned! it is a method of torture! 01:21:39 you said it yourself 01:21:40 that is almost certainly true, although not for that reason 01:21:40 write-once memory 01:21:41 oerjan, what reason then? 01:21:44 oerjan, see that ^ 01:21:53 you must have a lot of lag 01:21:59 hm 1.32 01:22:04 no, i just don't type fast 01:22:22 or think fast for that matter 01:23:57 but basically don't assume i'm answering the _last_ thing you say when you keep saying several things in a row... 01:25:13 oh and maybe metal shouldn't be totally banned but there should be some obligatory sound-proofing there... :D 01:27:17 just drank out of my ashtray 01:27:20 O_O 01:28:17 yea 01:28:22 i tell you 01:28:24 doesn't taste good 01:28:32 * oerjan believes that 01:28:42 the problem is, that cuba libre has the same color was water and cigarettes 01:28:55 *as 01:30:08 flexo, possible solutions: a) Check shape of object before moving to mouth b) stop smoking c) stop drinking alcohol d) stop smoking and stop drinking alcohol e) Both a and d 01:30:17 I suggest e 01:30:22 i suggest a 01:30:35 flexo, e is healthier? 01:30:43 especially smoking is bad 01:30:44 so? 01:30:48 yea i know 01:30:55 that's why i have a nicotine patch on my arm 01:30:57 * oerjan suggests (d), just because 01:30:58 :) 01:31:11 (because i'm in the process of quitting) 01:31:15 but i'm drinking, so 01:31:17 i'm smoking too 01:31:31 flexo, what about others too? Think of people with asthma. Smokers are a pain to us 01:31:42 cause issues as soon as you are outside 01:31:47 ah, new year resolution? 01:31:57 oerjan: no, my wisdom teeth got ripped out a few days ago 01:32:07 eek 01:32:07 flexo, why? 01:32:07 bought the patches to overcome the days i was not allowed to smoke 01:32:18 then decided to quit smoking completly 01:32:21 good 01:32:25 that's why i have that patch on my arm right now 01:32:28 now actually stop 01:32:31 but today i started smoking again 01:32:34 and the patch is still there 01:32:35 flexo, throw away the ashtray 01:32:39 i suppose that's even better 01:32:59 yea well. i'm addicted. 01:33:00 flexo, it will solve both b and the actual issue 01:33:14 flexo, go somewhere where there are no cigarettes 01:33:19 actually i recall smelling the ashtray has been suggested for helping to quit 01:33:21 say for a mountain hike 01:33:23 i doubt there is such a place 01:33:31 tasting should be even better, no? 01:33:33 oerjan: drinking it doesn't so i don't buy it 01:33:39 flexo, what about north Canada? 01:33:41 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:33:45 AnMaster: way too cold i think 01:34:05 flexo, Ok... Australian outback and 500 km to the next human? 01:34:18 yea, that sounds more like it 01:34:25 flexo, maybe a bit too warm 01:34:35 probably 01:34:40 me living in germany and all 01:34:44 ah 01:34:53 flexo, in Europe you'll have a hard time 01:34:57 a little warmer than munich would be nice though 01:35:00 finding lonely places 01:35:21 a place with nice temperature and humidity where no one actually lives - yeah right :D 01:35:27 hehe 01:35:51 oerjan, may exist if it is 1) small 2) hard to reach or inconvenient in some other way 01:35:55 maybe a remote island 01:35:58 electricity and internet connectivity (say gprs coverage) would be nice too 01:36:00 say, mountains 01:36:03 oerjan, that too 01:36:09 mountains are usually cold 01:36:12 flexo, then you are out of luck 01:36:19 alright then 01:36:24 no way around smoking 01:36:28 oerjan, well but if you go near enough to the equator you offset that 01:36:33 flexo, stop it 01:36:35 just stop it 01:36:47 can't. addiction. 01:36:55 probably a genetic issue tue. 01:36:57 flexo, stop drinking then instead? 01:37:02 no?! 01:37:04 flexo, why did you start at all? 01:37:15 oh, that's a funny story 01:37:21 flexo, and get professional help 01:37:26 you know, i spent some time in a mental hospital when i was 16yo 01:37:33 ouch 01:37:34 as i was 16 i was allowed to smoke 01:37:40 but the 14 and 15yo's were not 01:37:47 so i had to go with a cigarette for fire 01:37:58 err why fire? 01:37:58 because you know, you are now allowed to have a lighter in closed mental hospital 01:38:02 could set yourself on fire 01:38:11 * AnMaster backs away from flexo 01:38:16 anyway 01:38:20 1) why would you want a lighter at all? 01:38:28 to light cigarettes? 01:38:32 in case he wanted to BURN something, silly 01:38:36 the point is those 14yo and 15yos were smokers 01:38:38 oerjan, oh 01:38:49 and they needed me to get the fire 01:38:55 that's why i started smoking 01:38:59 flexo, -_- 01:39:26 "blaze" 01:39:29 that's the actual term 01:39:34 they needed me to get the "blaze" 01:39:46 you know, as in a lit cigarette, so you can pass the blaze? 01:40:27 i've been a chainsmoker ever since 01:40:36 tried to quit a couple of times 01:40:41 never worked out 01:40:49 but i suppose that was to be expected 01:40:55 shudder 01:40:58 people with depressions often smoke 01:41:06 and actually they are not advised to stop 01:41:13 because it causes a serotonine drop 01:41:30 Yesterday's Mezzacotta was pretty good imo 01:41:30 good i never stopped smoking then 01:41:35 even better i never started 01:41:49 you mean... because they would live longer and cause more expenses for the country? 01:41:50 :P 01:41:52 Sgeo: the main one? 01:41:57 flexo, that is the real reason 01:42:00 hm? 01:42:09 Yes 01:42:12 mezzacotta now has _four_ comics on it 01:42:18 oerjan, it does? 01:42:25 AnMaster: i suppose that's a joke, because although you might have an argument there, it's someone messed up 01:42:28 well, for a certain definition of comics 01:42:32 *somewhat 01:42:48 flexo, well since it is for someone messed up it may be somewhat messed up? 01:42:55 oerjan, I don't count invalid link that 01:43:06 the medical costs of smoking-related diseases outweight the care for the few years we live shorter 01:43:10 Comments on a Postcard, Lightning Made of Owls, and Square root of minus Garfield 01:43:26 flexo, ah hm 01:43:32 + the main random one 01:43:38 those people with ps 01:43:42 with.. 01:43:44 well. 01:43:49 whats the term? 01:44:00 crazy people, right 01:44:02 Imaginary Garfield Squared = minus garfield = minus train station field = MINOTAUR TRAINING FIELD 01:44:13 oerjan, "Square root of minus Garfield"? 01:44:15 * AnMaster looks 01:44:23 Is Prevx CSI a good anti-rootkit? 01:44:38 What do I win? 01:44:38 so. crazy people who manage to end up so old that they are actually reaching the avg. life expentency (sp! :) for smokers are probably not an issue after all 01:44:44 Please tell me it's minotaurs 01:45:08 (my reasoning over there is seriously flawed and makes no sense) 01:45:20 oerjan, do you understand it? 01:45:24 oerjan, I *dont* 01:45:31 * AnMaster reads about 01:45:54 oerjan: did you ask me why my wisdom teeth were pulled out? 01:46:04 AnMaster: it's sort of various variations of Garfield 01:46:06 flexo: no 01:46:10 oh okay 01:46:17 oerjan, ah 01:46:23 eek 01:46:43 okay 01:46:58 all of the new comics are collaborative, so there is a lot of variation 01:46:59 i think the alcohol is beginning to .. a.. e.. a.. ... hm.. *ffect me. 01:47:10 affect 01:47:19 why? explain it me please. 01:47:21 i think i never got it. 01:47:26 +to 01:47:46 effect is not a verb much 01:47:58 much? 01:48:14 much = covering my ass in case i'm wrong 01:48:20 it's always affect then? 01:48:25 i thought they both have a different meaning 01:48:39 actually you might be able to effect a change 01:48:42 a similar, but different one 01:48:54 o.O 01:49:32 writing and reading english is getting harder and harder 01:49:42 i'm rather drunk now 01:49:50 to affect is to influence, more or less 01:49:56 you know, i'd so much like to go on babbeling in german instead 01:49:58 while effect would be to cause 01:50:02 ah 01:50:08 so both verbs exist actually? 01:50:35 i'm pulling this out of thin air. read a dictionary for official explanations :D 01:50:46 na 01:50:48 i'm fine with that 01:50:54 won't remember a thing tomorrow anyway 01:50:57 (doesn't mean it's wrong though, just based on my intuition) 01:51:11 that's convenient 01:51:22 i think i've passed way beyong the ballmer peak by now :/ 01:51:24 more chocolate mocha beans -> 01:51:42 so no coding tonight 01:51:46 how unfortunate 01:52:05 it seems i have picked up an addiction to them over christmas 01:52:22 oh damnit 01:52:43 i just figured that i'm way too drunk to "type" with the stylus on my smartphone thingie 01:52:51 heh 01:53:01 no drunk-sms-sending then :/ 01:53:45 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:57:08 you know, i'd so much like to go on babbeling in german instead 01:57:37 Deutschbabbelung ist am strengsten verboten. Bitte kein gefingerpoken! 01:58:14 Aber schnell! 02:00:10 *sigh* 02:00:25 IWC still has those bandwidth problems it seems 02:06:00 -!- Corun has changed nick to OneSadCookie. 02:07:38 OneSadCookie: i don't think there are any minotaurs in Square root of minus Garfield yet, but you are of course free to send in a strip suggestion with one, it is a collaborative comic after all :D 02:08:01 Mmm. 02:08:04 -!- OneSadCookie has changed nick to Corun. 02:08:33 Mmm, minotaurs. 02:08:41 Best served raw. 02:08:54 They're aMAZEing. 02:09:26 just make it clear which one is the dinner 02:13:52 oerjan, "Square root of minus Garfield" rocks 02:17:49 Imaginary Garfield? :o 02:19:43 http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/ 02:20:21 the last one is not one of the best, though 02:27:26 * Sgeo suddenly wants to take the color average of every strip he knows of 02:29:06 i don't know if it would work as well as with garfield though 02:29:49 it really brings out how unimaginative garfield's drawing is 02:30:19 * oerjan guesses that was a spoiler, of sorts 02:30:20 What's with Garfield being a number? 02:30:31 Garfield divided by Garfield 02:30:39 = 1 02:31:33 recall this whole series was inspired by Garfield minus Garfield, another parody 02:31:51 http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=14 is pretty cool 02:36:24 http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=8 "And there was no cheating".. changing the words isn't cheating? 02:38:02 i think it means the choice of strips was really random 02:39:47 http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=5 the original for the events actually made me laugh 02:40:01 That sqrt(-garfield) didn't 02:41:20 * Sgeo wtfs at http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=4 02:41:51 you have to have read Dinosaur Comics a bit to get the point of 5 i think 02:42:07 err no? 02:42:16 http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=4 makes perfect sense 02:42:36 and I don't read Dinosaur Comics 02:42:46 i said _5_ 02:42:57 oh right 02:43:04 oerjan, also I'm waiting for the "this is some character art I have been working on" 02:43:07 :P 02:43:18 oh and xkcd parody 02:43:20 er what? 02:43:33 oerjan, irregular made parodies of both 02:43:37 don't you remember? 02:43:39 * oerjan doesn't get the first one 02:43:46 oerjan, misc theme 02:43:52 don't remember number 02:44:00 anyway it was funny in irregular 02:44:06 thanks to the annotation 02:45:37 i managed to use my phone after all 02:45:48 AnMaster, When I said I WTF at 4, I meant at the original Garfield 02:46:09 got me a chick for 24.-25. 02:46:13 alcohol FTW 02:46:38 what is the message in http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=17 ?, irregular forum says there is a real message in that 02:46:58 yes there was 02:47:05 it was something boring though 02:47:10 oerjan, I don't know what the original comic was 02:47:22 oerjan, can't search them all 02:47:35 so this is effectively a one-time-pad style crypto for me 02:47:37 i found it by searching for things with clown in them 02:47:56 hm ok 02:49:29 hm right google wasn't much help, had to find a garfield site with text search 02:51:00 http://garfield.nfshost.com/?s=clown+shirt 02:51:23 (it was easier this time since i remembered the word "shirt" was in it :D) 02:52:46 I wonder if they will do that theme again? 02:52:52 I mean 02:52:56 crypto 02:53:25 incidentally i _did_ manage to get the small part with "garfield" and "hmmmm" without knowing the original strip 02:53:32 well 02:53:33 yes 02:53:43 (was easy to guess the first, and then the second fell out) 02:54:01 i'm sure someone with more experience could have done most of it 02:54:10 * AnMaster writes a script 02:55:23 in erlang 02:55:45 * oerjan used haskell, naturally ;D 02:58:40 oh case 03:00:09 oerjan, is this diff mod length of alphabet? 03:00:22 I get readings off the scale 03:00:26 ;P 03:01:00 you have to rotate, naturally 03:01:10 damn yes 03:01:45 oerjan, what is the length of the English alphabet now again? 03:01:50 26 03:01:55 right 03:02:07 recall that rot-13 is exactly half 03:02:18 that's why it's self-inverse 03:03:14 OOOOOOOOOOH that's why. 03:04:13 8> io:format("~s~n", [garfield_code:decrypt("Notice anything different about me, Garfield?", "WBMXUW ZWSQIBBV XFUXYZDCO SGUAI EY, APVKLTPI?")]). 03:04:13 ^S^O^R^R^Z^Y ^T^W^A^S^N^O^Z^T^W^O^R^T^H^Y^O^U^Z^R^E^F^F^O^Z^R^T^Z^Z^T^O^D^E^C^O^D^E^Z 03:04:13 ok 03:04:14 wtf? 03:04:29 oerjan, is this not ascii value at the end? 03:05:19 oh 03:05:20 right 03:06:07 What's the ^Zs? 03:06:16 you need to add 64 or 96 to get it alphabetic, and the non-letters are just junk 03:06:25 ah 03:06:58 oerjan, oerjan interesting the escape codes almost match,... 03:07:00 "IMSORRZYITWASNOZTWORTHYOUZREFFOZRTZZTODECODEZ" 03:07:02 anywya 03:07:05 Z == space 03:07:08 I think 03:07:09 * AnMaster fixes 03:07:32 that's because control-codes 0-31 are printed as ^+ corresponding letter 03:08:11 yes 03:08:24 17> io:format("~p~n", [garfield_code:decrypt("Notice anything different about me, Garfield?", "WBMXUW ZWSQIBBV XFUXYZDCO SGUAI EY, APVKLTPI?")]). 03:08:24 "IMSORR YITWASNO TWORTHYOU REFFO RT, TODECODE?" 03:08:25 ^Z corresponds to when you have equal codes in the texts, which happens for the non-letters 03:08:27 much better 03:08:39 ouch 03:08:42 that hurts 03:09:05 i _told_ you it was a boring text :D 03:09:27 yes 03:10:51 * oerjan still doesn't get what iwc comic AnMaster connects with "this is some character art I have been working on" 03:11:06 and i've looked through most of the misc parodies now 03:11:34 nor do i recall the original comic 03:12:14 oerjan, early one 03:12:28 ok i started a bit into it 03:12:38 * oerjan goes backwards in misc 03:13:26 bah IWC has trouble again 03:13:30 indeed 03:13:42 Is Mezzacotta down? 03:13:57 i don't think those are the same site 03:14:22 Mezzacotta was being slow 03:14:22 i'm looking at Irregular Webcomic Archive 03:15:18 "IM SORRY IT WAS NOT WORTH YOUR EFFORT TO DECODE THIS BUT YOU HAVE THE SATISFACTION OF KNOWING SOME THING THAT OTHERS DO NOT TAKE PRIDE IN THAT SIGNED THE GOON" 03:15:20 wtf :P 03:15:34 Warning: mysql_connect() [function.mysql-connect]: Can't connect to MySQL server on 'iwc.irregularwebcomic.net' (4) in /home/.bacidryer/dmmaus/iwc/comic.php on line 28 03:15:34 A database error occurred. This should be temporary. Please try again later. Do not notify me about this - there's nothing I can do about it. 03:15:34 Can't connect to MySQL server on 'iwc.irregularwebcomic.net' (4) 03:15:35 also 03:16:51 oerjan, no 1463 03:16:51 actually database errors have sometimes happened before. it may not be the bandwidth problem of late. 03:16:53 not that early 03:17:07 oerjan, yet you claimed you couldn't find it? 03:17:36 i still cannot. 1463 you said? 03:17:41 oerjan, yes 03:18:08 oerjan, I just pressed show previous 5 a few times, took me one minute to find after the website issues stopped 03:18:11 oh. 03:18:12 a few seconds ago 03:18:24 oerjan, you fail at search 03:18:29 i didn't notice the text in the image before 03:18:43 you fail at reading too 03:19:00 no, my writing is _perferc_ i tell you! 03:19:13 hah 03:19:22 oerjan, I said reading, not writing 03:19:24 and it isn't 03:19:25 ;P 03:19:32 you fail at humor again 03:19:40 well nearly 03:19:44 oerjan, I detected your humor 03:19:48 you may notice that 03:20:09 also I need to sleep 03:20:17 actually i did use next 5 so my search was excellent 03:20:32 no you don't. reject your sleep addiction! 03:56:02 ehird, http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk/Lib/antigravity.py?rev=66902&view=markup <-- :D 03:57:13 Heh. 03:57:46 Slereah, http://imgs.xkcd.com/blag/googlecopy.jpg 04:02:05 Let me get my pen. 04:02:23 Slereah, why? 04:02:40 anyway night 04:05:21 bye. 04:08:58 :D 04:10:55 wait 04:10:56 what 04:11:03 google changed favicon? 04:11:04 again? 04:11:08 Yeah 04:11:10 To something ugly 04:11:11 since when? 04:11:33 Iunno, yesterday I think 04:26:14 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 05:06:36 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:35:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:12:52 AnMaster: flexo, what about others too? Think of people with asthma. Smokers are a pain to us <<< it's the other way around 07:28:20 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:28:37 -!- oklopol has joined. 07:29:31 lol @ averaged garfield 07:42:50 http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=2 <<< i love it when he turns 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:11:11 -!- moozilla has joined. 08:11:14 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:11:20 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 08:12:08 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:12:17 -!- moozilla has joined. 08:22:12 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:22:17 -!- moozilla has joined. 08:27:19 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 08:39:43 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:41:22 -!- moozilla has joined. 08:54:22 -!- Mony has joined. 08:55:41 hi 08:56:17 ho 09:00:36 Hollo mona 09:00:58 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 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has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:21:13 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 15:27:07 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:31:46 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:31:54 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:36:07 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:36:08 -!- metazilla has joined. 15:38:32 -!- moozilla has joined. 15:38:32 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:38:41 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 15:55:54 -!- moozilla has joined. 15:56:12 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:56:12 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 15:58:08 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:58:13 -!- moozilla has joined. 16:05:54 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 16:12:28 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 16:16:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 16:16:59 AnMaster: no, no, you got me all wrong 16:17:08 checking the shape wouldn't have helped me 16:17:15 as i used a glass as an ashtray 16:17:19 (a glass filled with water) 16:17:33 flexo, you said it would have helped 16:17:34 back then 16:17:38 i know 16:17:39 i was drunk 16:17:47 i thought you meant something like 16:17:58 "check contents of glass for cigarettes before moving to mouth" 16:18:06 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:18:08 -!- metazilla has joined. 16:20:55 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:20:59 -!- moozilla has joined. 16:23:25 06:22:18 hm 16:23:26 06:22:21 sigh 16:23:27 06:22:30 ehird, where is gcc-bf now when eso-std is down? 16:23:30 ais523's harddrive 16:23:32 aha 16:23:36 until I get it back up 16:23:41 right 16:24:12 ehird, I was working on making the fuzz test script for cfunge a bit more portable 16:24:15 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:24:28 yay 16:27:34 ehird, one thing that I will need, what are the exit codes on OS X for programs that end due to 1) SIGALRM 2) SIGSEGV 3) SIGABRT 16:27:51 the same as BSD, almost certainly. 16:28:04 ehird, hm ok. will check there then. 16:28:22 16:11:00 alright 16:28:22 16:11:05 i can feel it now 16:28:24 16:11:13 the ballmer peak is 16:28:26 16:11:16 approaching 16:28:28 16:11:38 MUSIC! 16:28:30 16:22:29 flexo, Mozart? Haydn? Händel? 16:28:32 the best part is that you were absolutely serious :D 16:28:44 ehird, and you fail at unicode 16:28:50 no 16:28:51 the logs do. 16:28:54 just like they fail at UTC. 16:29:14 ehird, what logs? your local logs or tunes logs? 16:29:22 tunes 16:29:24 ah ok 16:29:28 16:28:44 I do not wish to talk to you any more 16:29:39 ehird, sadly I didn't manage to stop 16:29:39 ;P 16:29:41 yea that was mean 16:30:06 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:30:14 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:32:19 -!- metazilla has joined. 16:32:19 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:32:28 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 16:34:48 -!- metazilla has joined. 16:34:50 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:34:58 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 16:40:59 17:36:33 flexo, stop it 16:40:59 17:36:35 just stop it 16:41:04 I see you've never been addicted to anything, ever. 16:41:50 Have you? 16:42:01 no. 16:42:49 ehird, hm the *bsd exit codes for signals are the same as the linux ones 16:43:15 wonder if posix spec this? I haven't been able to find out, even though I _did_ RFTM 16:44:08 whats a "signal exit code"? 16:44:31 you mean the exitcode returned by the default signal handler of the libc? 16:45:52 AnMaster: do you like the composition "Leck mich im Arsch" by Mozart? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leck_mich_im_Arsch) 16:46:46 ehird, I haven't listened to it, so I can't answer that 16:47:11 AnMaster: ok, what about "Leck mir den Arsch fein recht schön sauber"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leck_mir_den_Arsch_fein_recht_schön_sauber 16:48:17 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:48:18 -!- metazilla has joined. 16:48:28 again I haven't listened to it, and checking the wikipedia article I notice "In 1988, Wolfgang Plath, an editor of the Bärenreiter Neue Mozart-Ausgabe (NMA), presented evidence that the composer of this piece, as well as K.234/382c, was in fact Wenzel Trnka von Krzowitz (1739-1791)." 16:49:16 ehird, anyway are you trying to make some sort of point? 16:49:25 perhaps. 16:49:29 perhaps. 16:49:32 I never claimed I like everything by some composer, or dislike everything 16:49:33 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:49:44 Whoosh 16:50:33 -!- moozilla has joined. 16:50:33 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:50:41 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 16:53:27 Eine kleine Nachtmusik, Piano Sonata No. 11, Violin Concerto No. 1 are some examples I have listened to, and know I like 16:53:36 WHOOOOOOOOOSH 16:54:31 there are more, but considering the great number of pieces he made, I hope you realise why I haven't (yet) listened to them all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart 16:54:50 w h o o o o o sh 16:54:55 geeze that breeze is strong 16:54:58 ehird, what do you mean? 16:57:44 oh, nothin' 17:06:24 -!- moozilla has joined. 17:06:24 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:06:31 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 17:06:35 The only way a lower number could be achieved would be: 17:06:35 [...] 17:06:37 • for Kevin Bacon to dig up the remains of Paul Erdős, grind them up, drink them in a milkshake providing him with an Erdős-Bacon number of 0 (temporarily) 17:06:40 -- Wikipedia, Erdos-Bacon number 17:07:19 ehird, any citation for it? 17:07:27 no :P 17:07:39 add that then ;P 17:07:46 assuming you dislike it 17:07:58 * ehird adds a citation to the article itself 17:08:04 oh? 17:08:10 yes. recursive citations. 17:08:14 hah 17:08:43 -!- moozilla has joined. 17:08:44 ehird, you realise this will be like division by zero for wikipedia? Same effect basically 17:08:54 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:08:55 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 17:08:57 I see. 17:09:24 ehird, you better take cover to avoid the falling debris(sp?) 17:09:46 Debris. 17:10:35 * AnMaster imagines a movie about a post-catastrophe/post-wikipedia/post-civilisation/post-nuclear-war world 17:10:58 Yeah. There are only about 500000000 of them. 17:11:27 ehird, question is, which of those slash-separated things will people think is the single worst one? 17:11:39 is post-wikipedia worse than post-nuclear-war or not? 17:11:41 Well, 3 of them are identical. 17:11:47 ehird, oh? 17:11:56 which three :D 17:12:04 Nuclear war is a catastrophe and in context presumably you meant one that ended civilisation. 17:12:58 ehird, well some editors on wikipedia would probably[citation needed] argue that the end of wikipedia is same as catastrophe but not same as nuclear war 17:13:08 hm 17:13:12 no, they probably wouldn't. 17:13:22 well it would be fun if they did... 17:14:07 i've been trying to nip this joke in the bud ever since I saw it coming :| 17:14:47 ehird, well that is only because you hate me! *sob* [cue: anime-sized tears] 17:15:01 clearly 17:17:44 gah 17:18:03 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:18:07 the "signal return status the same on linux and *bsd" seems to be thanks to bash 17:18:13 " The return value of a simple command is its exit status, or 128+n if the command is terminated by signal n." 17:18:32 I'm not yet sure if that is true for posix shell too 17:18:36 * AnMaster searches docs 17:19:51 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 17:20:16 "The exit status of a command that terminated because it received a signal shall be reported as greater than 128." 17:20:17 hm nop 17:20:25 well I need bash anyway 17:26:53 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:26:59 -!- moozilla has joined. 17:29:24 -!- metazilla has joined. 17:29:27 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:29:32 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 17:41:47 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:45:40 ehird, question: does OS X have /dev/urandom? 17:45:45 yes. 17:45:57 Is /dev/urandom not part of UNIX? 17:46:12 ehird, well I wasn't sure and I couldn't find it in man page 17:46:45 * AnMaster searches standards 17:49:35 Highly doubtful that this has anything to do with unicode since web addresses do not support unicode and the changes are to a DLL which would have been written in c or c++. 17:49:48 ^ Sufficient idiocy is indistinguishable from intelligence to the ignorant. 17:50:04 -!- metazilla has joined. 17:50:07 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:50:13 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 17:52:24 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:52:26 -!- moozilla has joined. 18:04:17 -!- metazilla has joined. 18:04:27 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:04:29 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 18:05:26 -!- alex89ru has joined. 18:06:49 -!- metazilla has joined. 18:06:56 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:07:00 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 18:11:26 -!- GregorR has joined. 18:20:49 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:20:58 -!- moozilla has joined. 18:23:03 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:23:15 -!- moozilla has joined. 18:35:55 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:39:29 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:39:39 -!- moozilla has joined. 18:42:00 -!- metazilla has joined. 18:42:00 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:42:08 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 19:00:39 -!- metazilla has joined. 19:00:47 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 19:00:51 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 19:03:25 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:03:31 -!- moozilla has joined. 19:08:33 What's the recommended parallel make amount? 19:08:36 cores+1? 19:10:38 yes 19:19:19 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 19:24:53 -!- metazilla has joined. 19:25:01 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 19:25:07 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 19:27:24 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:27:29 -!- moozilla has joined. 19:39:43 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:39:48 -!- moozilla has joined. 19:42:11 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:42:12 -!- metazilla has joined. 19:52:11 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:54:47 -!- flexo has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:54:47 -!- psygnisfive has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:55:44 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 19:55:44 -!- flexo has joined. 19:56:47 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:56:49 -!- moozilla has joined. 19:58:01 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 19:58:28 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 19:59:21 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:59:23 -!- metazilla has joined. 19:59:54 -!- Corun has joined. 20:07:20 -!- dbc has joined. 20:16:17 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:16:26 -!- moozilla has joined. 20:18:14 In case anyone has a boardgamegeek account, I have just produced an "Esoteric Language Programmer" microbadge. 20:18:18 http://www.boardgamegeek.com/browse/microbadge/7285 20:19:02 -!- metazilla has joined. 20:19:09 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:19:11 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 20:25:30 hi dbc 20:38:48 -!- metazilla has joined. 20:38:56 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:39:00 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 20:41:27 -!- metazilla has joined. 20:41:34 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:41:36 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 20:53:46 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 21:01:00 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 21:03:40 -!- metazilla has joined. 21:03:48 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:03:52 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 21:06:15 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:06:17 -!- metazilla has joined. 21:18:35 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:18:36 -!- moozilla has joined. 21:21:04 -!- metazilla has joined. 21:21:08 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:21:14 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 21:24:02 Hi. 21:24:42 o 21:31:45 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 21:34:10 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 21:36:12 -!- metazilla has joined. 21:36:14 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:36:22 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 21:38:20 moozilla: ok, this _is_ ridiculous. fix your connection 21:38:47 -!- metazilla has joined. 21:38:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:38:55 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:38:57 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 21:39:54 -!- seveninchbread has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:41:13 -!- FireFly has joined. 21:42:59 ehird: why are you assuming there's something wrong with his connection 21:43:08 could just be pressing the disco button repeatedly. 21:43:17 could be. 21:55:44 the disco button? 21:55:56 olsner: exactly. 21:56:23 oklopol: your answer is wholly dissatisfactory 21:56:24 -!- metazilla has joined. 21:56:32 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:56:34 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 21:56:43 olsner: well you know. /disco time 21:58:29 -!- metazilla has joined. 21:58:34 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:58:39 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 21:58:59 I don't think I do know 22:04:48 olsner: disco = disconnect 22:05:34 ehird: good point, i guess i should've mentioned that in my explanation 22:18:32 -!- metazilla has joined. 22:18:39 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:18:44 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 22:20:58 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:21:06 -!- moozilla has joined. 22:43:32 -!- metazilla has joined. 22:43:40 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 22:43:44 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 22:45:54 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:45:57 -!- moozilla has joined. 22:58:09 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:58:18 -!- moozilla has joined. 23:01:03 -!- metazilla has joined. 23:01:10 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 23:01:14 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 23:15:58 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:16:01 -!- moozilla has joined. 23:18:09 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:18:16 -!- moozilla has joined. 23:35:21 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:35:28 -!- metazilla has joined. 23:35:35 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 23:35:37 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 23:37:23 -!- Corun has joined. 23:38:14 -!- metazilla has joined. 23:38:22 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 23:38:24 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 23:48:39 -!- dbc has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:58:07 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:58:12 -!- moozilla has joined. 2009-01-11: 00:00:39 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:00:51 -!- moozilla has joined. 00:08:47 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 00:12:04 -!- Corun has joined. 00:12:18 -!- metazilla has joined. 00:12:19 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:12:29 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 00:14:27 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:14:32 -!- moozilla has joined. 00:28:16 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:28:16 -!- metazilla has joined. 00:28:26 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 00:30:23 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:30:43 -!- metazilla has joined. 00:30:50 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 00:30:52 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 00:45:58 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating..."). 00:46:03 -!- ehird has joined. 00:46:42 -!- metazilla has joined. 00:46:50 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 00:46:52 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 00:47:53 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit). 00:47:58 -!- ehird has joined. 00:49:05 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit). 00:49:11 -!- ehird has joined. 00:49:14 -!- moozilla has quit (Connection reset by peer). 00:49:19 -!- metazilla has joined. 01:19:27 -!- alex89ru has quit ("Verlassend"). 01:22:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:27:51 AnMaster: do you like the composition "Leck mich im Arsch" by Mozart? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leck_mich_im_Arsch) 01:27:55 O_O 01:27:59 MY INNOCENCE! 01:36:17 ehird: good point, i guess i should've mentioned that in my explanation 01:36:26 yes. those swedes can be a little dense. 01:37:57 ouch, so that's the new google favicon you were talking about 01:39:17 i think it is time to resurrect the old term "sildesalat", used by norwegians to dis the mashup in the corner of the norwegian/swedish union flag 01:40:02 (means "herring salad") 01:57:21 "Leck mir den Arsch fein recht schön sauber" ("Lick my arse nice and clean", K233; K382d in the revised numbering) 01:57:34 mozart++ 01:58:06 mozart is the weirdest great composer 01:59:30 not only he was a clown and a jackass 01:59:34 but his music often sucks 02:03:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:05:24 I'm not the only one hating googles new favicon? 02:07:10 "hating" may be a bit strong 02:07:27 but it looks like something that belongs in a kindergarten, not a search engine 02:07:37 Well, to me it looks like the old blue one, but inverted and with odd colors 02:07:44 At first I didn't spot the g :\ 02:07:56 Looked like a jigsaw puzzle to me 02:18:06 I liked the old one because it wasn't terribly different from the blank tab icon 02:46:02 -!- Corun has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:46:17 -!- Corun has joined. 02:50:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has left (?). 02:50:48 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 03:25:50 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 03:33:05 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 03:43:16 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:54:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:38:17 -!- pikhq has joined. 07:15:42 -!- dbc has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:18:50 but it looks like something that belongs in a kindergarten, not a search engine <-- perfect summary 08:19:18 Heh. 08:23:31 i want the original back:( 08:23:37 i dunno wtf they think they are doing 08:23:44 the are completely ruining their image 08:24:51 Yeah, that will totally stop you from using it 08:38:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("e disasterous."). 08:38:57 what are crampons 08:38:57 the spikes ? 08:38:59 i wonder what the slovene word is 08:39:01 They are vaginal inserts that help female and transsexual mountaineers gain an additional foothold while climbing in tricky spots. 08:40:17 psygnisfive. 08:40:22 "Transsexual" 08:40:27 Are you on a tranny chat? 08:40:40 I'm pretty sure no one else would bother to make the addition. 08:40:55 It's like how only hackers differentiate hacker from cracker. 08:41:14 actually 08:41:18 that was in #linguistics 08:41:18 XD 09:08:09 ehird, I committed the more portable fuzz testing script, it is in last trunk. 09:08:18 ehird, hopefully it should work on OS X too 09:25:37 o 09:29:02 fungot: o 09:29:02 oklopol: ut austin too, not surprisingly though. ;p fnord/ fnord/ posse/ fnord/ esoteric not found 09:50:14 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 10:01:25 -!- Mony has joined. 10:16:29 guys 10:16:32 we should totally do that 10:17:00 Your mom? 10:17:16 no no 10:17:31 a Miranda-family language with deep pattern matching/unification 10:17:47 consider the fuctional palindrome function: 10:18:31 palindrome [] = True 10:18:31 palindrome [x] = True 10:18:33 palindrome [x] ++ xs ++ [x] = palindrome xs 10:18:35 palindrome _ = False 10:31:07 -!- metazilla has joined. 10:31:07 -!- moozilla has quit (Connection reset by peer). 10:31:14 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 10:32:04 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:32:11 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:59:30 only instead of doing it like haskell does it 10:59:33 do it more like thue 11:20:54 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:20:57 -!- moozilla has joined. 11:30:59 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:31:02 -!- moozilla has joined. 11:31:40 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:31:41 -!- metazilla has joined. 11:41:57 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:42:01 -!- moozilla has joined. 11:47:51 psygnisfive, "Miranda-family"? 11:57:40 psygnisfive, can't find it on the esolang wiki 11:58:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_(programming_language) 11:58:21 ah not an esolang? 11:59:11 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 11:59:31 anyone know if it is possible to get the esolang wiki in the search box in firefox? Like you can get wikipedia there 11:59:55 * AnMaster don't know how those plugin things for search actually work 12:00:47 -!- Slereah has set topic: eat your face | man | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 12:01:06 Slereah, what was the old topic? 12:01:19 AnMaster : Click on the icon of the search box while you're on the esowiki 12:01:26 Click on "add esowiki" something 12:01:53 huh ok 12:02:00 so how does it know how to search on it? 12:02:29 I mean, there must be some tag in the html code or something 12:02:31 * AnMaster looks 12:02:39 well mediawiki code is messy 12:02:56 12:02:58 hm probably that 12:03:39 A winner is you 12:40:20 -!- Hiato has joined. 12:41:05 * Hiato wonders if anyone knows any NASM 12:44:52 -!- metazilla has joined. 12:44:57 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:45:01 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 12:47:20 yug, okay, let me be more straight forwards: I'm struggling with an int to str routine for my kernel in nasm, can anyone possibly lend a hand 13:09:44 write one in C, compile it with gcc -S, and copy it over? :-P 13:12:40 Hiato: yes! 13:12:53 i wrote a very neat algorithm for that a while ago 13:13:02 cbw 13:13:02 sahf 13:13:02 aaa 13:13:02 aad 0x31 13:13:02 adc al, 0x30 13:13:10 have fun figuring it out 13:13:31 (that "aad 0x31" is that undefined opcode thingie, but it works fine) 13:14:10 this routine (obviously) converts the low nibble in AL to an ascii character in AL, hexadecimal 13:14:44 the #asm people told me that was the worst abuse of the x86 ISA they'd ever seen 13:14:49 i'm rather proud of it 13:14:56 it's 1 byte shorter than the trivial version too 13:15:45 oh and i rely on some undocumented flag behaviour too 13:15:53 but i tested it on a couple of different cpus 13:15:59 so no problem 13:16:45 note that in 32bit code you'll need to 32bit-prefix that cbw, which results in more one byte - no gain there, but it still works 13:17:21 unless you can ensure that AH is zeroed out - in that case you'll even be two (yes, TWO!) bytes shorter than the trivial algorithm 13:17:54 if you know that AF is geing to be cleared on entry you can also leave the SAHF 13:18:25 which makes this a 3-opcode algorithm, containing all mnemonics starting with an "a" 13:18:29 personally, i like that 13:19:00 it's even alphabetically sorted 13:19:11 this is so beautiful code 13:19:14 i could cry 13:20:40 the mnemonics also contain only hexadecimal digits 13:20:51 which kinda documents the purpose of that code 13:21:02 oh my god. i'm so good. 13:23:12 er 13:23:17 okay, where were we 13:23:33 i just answered your question 13:23:55 I have a sort of algorithm, I just have no idea how to continually add to a string/pointer thingy 13:24:11 oh 13:24:14 Well, thing is, this is in 16bit (for starters) 13:24:18 can't help you there 13:24:29 i only know how to convert a nibble to hexadecimal 13:24:44 hrmm.. 13:25:21 alright 13:25:27 i've a suggestion to make 13:25:30 i stop trolling 13:25:35 and you describe your problem? 13:25:43 Sounds fair 13:25:44 deal 13:26:09 Okay, I can (like any fool) divide and mod a number by ten to receive it's digits in reverse order. 13:26:21 I can easily reverse them with push and pop 13:26:29 But, the thing is, I can only handle them one at a time 13:26:32 http://rafb.net/p/5kF2ie38.html 13:26:40 here is the procedure to print an int 13:27:07 well.. what's the problem with that? 13:27:15 the idea would be to mees with mov [.variable],dx so as to store them 13:27:28 In summary, how does one work a running buffer 13:27:34 like s=s+'asd' 13:27:47 by.. dereferencing? 13:28:05 by keeping a counter of the length? 13:28:05 er? I am, regrettably, totally self taught here 13:28:10 Well, that 13:28:15 i'm not sure what you mean.. 13:28:24 unless you are talking about where you get the actual memory for the buffer 13:28:26 would work, but the thing is, I have no idea how. Okay, let me show you what I had 13:29:04 http://rafb.net/p/rlJpoG44.html 13:29:27 it's ok(ish) until 25 13:29:37 where I would normally print it, I try to somehow store it 13:29:45 what is this .t? 13:29:52 ah 13:29:54 it's down there 13:30:04 yea well 13:30:07 ofcourse this doesn't work 13:30:12 :P 13:30:34 you only reserved 4 bytes of memory - even if the code would work, where would you store the digits? 13:30:46 Well, I have no idea 13:30:56 Thing is, I work in psuedo-code, and then try and translate 13:30:59 ".t" becomes the address of that word 13:31:02 please, forgive my ignorance 13:31:18 mov [.t], ... stores something at that address - in that word 13:31:33 yeah, that's the idea there. So at least the concept is right 13:31:36 and "inc .t" should really not assemble, because .t is a constant. can't increment that. 13:31:46 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:31:48 yaeh, it doesn't :P 13:31:49 -!- metazilla has joined. 13:31:58 just use a register 13:32:07 I figured that if I had a pointer, say .t, I could then increase it and store bytes along that addres chain 13:32:11 mov edi, .t 13:32:17 -!- moozilla has joined. 13:32:18 .l1: mov [edi], whatw 13:32:20 *whatever 13:32:23 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:32:24 inc edi 13:32:25 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 13:32:26 jmp .l1 13:32:38 okay, lets see :P 13:33:18 ofcourse your buffer needs to be larger 13:33:25 yeah, using db now 13:33:27 because a 32-bit integer can span more than 4 digits 13:33:39 uhm.. using db won't make a difference.. 13:34:03 oh? Well, there we are, another of my consiparcy theories out the window. Double word vs Double byte, no? 13:34:16 uhm no 13:34:22 define word, define byte 13:34:29 aaah 13:34:32 ok, thanks 13:34:39 dec cx 13:34:39 cmp cx,0 13:34:39 jg .pop 13:34:50 cmp is unnecessary, dec sets ZF 13:34:56 cmpax,0 ;is quotient zero? 13:34:56 jnz.push ;if not, get one more number 13:35:03 do "test ax, ax" instead of the cmp. it's more cool. 13:35:09 als shorter 13:35:16 mov cx,0 13:35:17 Ok, thanks, and lol, will do :P 13:35:21 that'd be xor cx, cx ofcourse 13:35:33 yaeh, it started that way, but I got worried (don't know why) 13:35:34 (watch out, you need to reorder the cmpm) 13:35:41 no need to worry 13:36:00 jmp .push 13:36:00 .push: 13:36:02 this is a nop.. 13:36:24 no need for the jmp 13:36:32 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:36:39 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:36:56 jl .neg 13:36:57 .neg: 13:37:01 same here ofcourse 13:37:30 Hrmm, okay, thanks 13:37:35 uhm 13:37:36 also 13:37:40 let's press the big button now :P 13:37:42 i'm not so sure that cmp works even, the way you do it 13:37:43 yeah? 13:37:58 ah well. nevermind. should work. still it's... 13:38:02 cmpax,0 ;is quotient zero? 13:38:02 jnz.push ;if not, get one more number 13:38:25 you do "if (ax - 0 == 0)" 13:38:25 that's kinda redundant 13:38:26 just do test ax, ax 13:38:32 yeah, roger that 13:39:00 http://rafb.net/p/Fb3MGr38.html 13:39:09 I think that covered all of what you suggested 13:39:20 that mov edi,.t 13:39:34 should move out of the loop bode 13:39:35 body 13:39:42 you don't want to reset your pointer each iteration 13:39:48 also "db 0" will give you just 1 byte 13:39:49 aha, ok, so to prepop 13:40:00 okay, so what should I set? 13:40:03 jge .push 13:40:03 .neg: 13:40:07 erx 13:40:08 nevermind 13:40:09 :) 13:40:11 14:32 < Hiato> okay, so what should I set? 13:40:19 i don't know, how many digits can a 32bit integer have? 13:40:40 :P 13:40:49 times 64 db 0 13:40:58 replace 64 by.. some number 13:41:50 well, signed, it can only have 2^63/3.xx I think (log10/log2) 13:42:14 er, log2 13:42:20 blag 13:42:31 uhm. 13:42:33 * Hiato blushes 13:42:37 2^64-1 = 18446744073709552000 ... 10 13:42:44 wait 13:42:47 this is 16 bit code 13:42:50 yeah 13:42:58 that means 5 digits. 13:43:34 okay ... and so in asm we write? 13:43:46 times 5 db 0 13:44:01 ok, awesome 13:44:20 Oh yeah :D, it compiled :D 13:44:29 assembled, actually 13:44:38 no idea if it's going to do the right thing, but let's see 13:45:39 dec cx 13:45:39 jg .pop 13:45:41 thats wrong 13:45:47 should be jnz 13:45:57 hrmm.. well spotted 13:46:25 http://rafb.net/p/B80qat21.html 13:46:33 is this what I'm looking for then? 13:46:51 (hell, I really need to learn some asm) 13:47:16 cmp dx,0 13:47:16 jge .push 13:47:40 test dx, dx 13:47:58 jns 13:47:59 okay 13:48:09 should work. i think :) 13:48:34 again, it's somewhat shorter 13:48:39 because there is no "0" immediate to encode 13:49:29 push 2Dh ;- in ASCII 13:49:36 ^ you also need to increment the counter there 13:49:47 -!- Corun has joined. 13:49:56 or it won't print/store the sign 13:50:00 and mess up your stack 13:51:07 Okay, well, thank you very much so far, been a great help (this would have taken me days if not weeks) 13:51:26 hey hey.. does it work? ;) 13:51:32 THing is, I have no idea what it's now returning, seems to assemble just fine, and runs, but I don't print anything 13:51:47 I've confused myself, what's this: mov word bx,[.t] 13:52:04 i don't know 13:52:04 it's moving the address of .t to bx, right? 13:52:07 no 13:52:08 lol 13:52:19 it moves the first word stores there 13:52:26 hrmm 13:52:32 also you should really (really) use ax to return values 13:52:45 so that'd be mov ax, .t 13:52:47 *and* 13:52:52 you need to nul-terminate that string 13:52:57 unless you won't know where it ends 13:53:00 *otherwise 13:53:11 aha, thank you, probably why he print proc doesn't like it 13:53:43 that "mov word" looks strange too 13:53:47 (besides being wrong) 13:53:51 http://rafb.net/p/IOuNyM17.html 13:53:51 mov word bx,[.t] 13:53:58 this "word" there is redundant 13:54:04 okay, this should be alright, right? 13:54:05 nasm always defaults to the register size 13:54:09 okay, noted, thanks :) 13:54:14 you only need to specify the type if you do something like 13:54:20 mov ax, byte [bp] 13:54:29 in which case you'd put it on the right side 13:54:31 ooooh, I see I see 13:55:03 push 2Dh ;- in ASCII 13:55:03 inc edi 13:55:04 ^ no 13:55:05 the counter 13:55:08 cx 13:55:16 arg blarg, ok, thanks 13:55:19 *and* 13:55:27 it won't work that way 13:55:27 :) 13:55:33 because the order is reversedf 13:55:34 -f 13:55:54 so actually 13:55:59 you *should* increase edi 13:56:02 put don't push 13:56:14 mov byte [.t], 0x2d 13:56:23 oh, ok 13:56:26 also you can just specify '-' instead of 0x2d 13:56:28 easier to read 13:56:52 done and done 13:57:00 so 13:57:09 now build a small loop going over the characters and print 13:57:12 i wanna know if it works too ;) 13:57:38 Unfortunately, no, it didn't.. Oh, wait, still haven't zero terminated it 13:58:01 well, in that case you should get some messed up output after the number 13:58:05 it should still work though 13:58:40 nope, no output at all 13:58:52 how unfortunate 13:58:57 okay 13:58:59 let's see. give it me. 13:58:59 anything wrong here? mov dx,123 13:58:59 call k_int_tostr 13:58:59 mov si,ax 13:58:59 call k_scr_sprint 13:59:18 i don't know? 13:59:26 i don't know if k_scr_sprint works? ;) 13:59:31 but show me that int_tostr again 14:00:30 http://rafb.net/p/w7PgD996.html 14:00:42 that's all of the relevant code 14:00:54 int 10h 14:00:56 whats that? 14:01:02 oh 14:01:03 nevermind 14:01:03 heh 14:01:07 interrupt for printing :) 14:01:21 okay, give me a minute 14:01:27 sure thing 14:01:38 mov ax,[.t] 14:01:40 that should be 14:01:42 mov ax, .t 14:01:49 because you need to return the address 14:01:58 oh, not the byte itself... aha 14:02:10 the word, actually 14:02:12 and i don't see you zero-terminating the string? 14:02:23 add dl,30h ;Make it ASCII 14:02:31 using '0' instead of the comment would be more useful :) 14:02:43 mov dx,0 14:02:46 roger that 14:02:50 that's .. no. it's not. nevermind. 14:02:59 is it? 14:03:00 hmh 14:03:12 Unsigned divide DX:AX by r/m 14:03:15 ah yes. nevermind. 14:03:17 okay. try again. 14:03:19 could do xor dx,dx 14:03:21 yes 14:03:25 you should, too 14:03:31 it's a very common idiom 14:03:35 everyone does it 14:03:42 and cpus are optimized for it 14:03:43 roger wilko 14:04:14 something unrelated: you are aware of the fact that you are writing 16bit code there, yes? 14:04:14 meh, still no output 14:04:17 damnit 14:04:20 yes 14:05:15 okay. let's see. 14:05:29 test dx,dx 14:05:29 jns .push 14:05:29 mov edi,.t 14:05:34 there's your problem. 14:05:45 oh? 14:05:57 yes. 14:06:21 er, edi mov thingy before the jump 14:06:23 right? 14:06:35 i'd put it before the test to make things more clear, but yes 14:07:05 I believe it's actually hanging 14:07:07 mov [edi],dx 14:07:09 that's wrong 14:07:10 should be 14:07:15 mov [edi], byte dl 14:07:26 well err 14:07:29 you can leave the byte 14:07:35 nasm knows that dl is a byte ofcourse 14:08:02 and no, without that fix it won't work 14:08:11 dh will be zero, you get a zero-terminated string, no output 14:08:15 er 14:08:18 Ok, well, it still appeas to be hanging 14:08:18 an empty string i mean 14:08:30 hm. 14:08:33 you fixed that too? 14:09:03 the zero termination? no 14:09:09 well do it then ;) 14:09:17 er. 14:09:19 no i mean 14:09:21 14:59 < flexo> mov [edi],dx 14:09:24 should be dl 14:09:26 you fixed that? 14:09:30 ah, righ, yeah, fixed that 14:09:35 add dl,'0' 14:09:36 mov [edi],dl 14:09:46 okay 14:09:47 (seeing as we are in 16bit mode, and dl is a byte) 14:09:49 let's see the new version 14:09:57 way 14:09:58 wait 14:10:01 what's all that edi mess 14:10:06 you are in 16 bit code 14:10:12 it should be "di" and "si" everywhere 14:10:24 do a quick replace, but that's not a problem. it should still work. 14:10:47 http://rafb.net/p/fZ53Oc16.html 14:10:57 oh, ok 14:11:19 i really think this should work now. 14:11:21 give me a minute. 14:12:03 uhm 14:12:14 dx is your input register? 14:12:18 you clear it before the divide.. 14:12:43 damn it 14:12:51 should have been dh, methinks 14:12:58 no 14:13:10 the dividend is stored in dx:ax 14:13:16 so just put the number in ax 14:13:33 roger 14:13:53 i still think this is not the last problem as you should still have gotten *some* output.. 14:14:04 anyway. let's see the new version 14:14:50 http://rafb.net/p/ivrpE876.html 14:15:18 I LOVE YOU 14:15:20 :D 14:15:23 it works 14:15:39 Wow, that was hell, damn, thank you so very very very very very much 14:15:55 it does? 14:15:59 (note: I don't actually *love* you, but for the lack of a better word, I appreciate your help) 14:16:07 lol, why, shouldn't it? 14:16:24 didn't really expect it to. had given up hope 14:16:45 this is embarassing 14:16:50 i'm supposed to be good in this 14:17:00 :P 14:17:06 You are though, fixed it 14:17:07 anyway 14:17:10 you are writing 16-bit code 14:17:11 why? 14:17:18 Simplest OS I could do 14:17:25 32bit is.. well, I don't know 14:17:28 never tried 14:17:30 hm 14:17:31 okay 14:17:43 wanna see my puts/putc/putn routines? 14:17:50 yes please 14:17:57 and perhaps I could steal them too 14:19:19 http://rafb.net/p/RjhxBx56.html 14:19:28 no decimal stuff though 14:20:12 yeah, but, it helps either way, gonna save a copy for future 'reference' 14:20:14 hanks :) 14:20:33 well 14:20:36 you may want the version 14:20:37 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:20:39 which is 1 byte longer 14:20:41 instead of the 14:20:44 cbw 14:20:44 sahf 14:20:44 aaa 14:20:44 aad 0x31 14:20:46 adc al, 0x30 14:20:48 just do 14:20:53 add al, '0' 14:20:53 cmp al, '9' 14:20:53 jng putc 14:20:53 add al, 'a' - '0' - 10 14:21:00 does the same thing - in a clean way ;) 14:21:47 roger that, thanks 14:21:53 ofcourse this code is... you know 14:21:56 "really sexy" 14:22:03 size-optimized to the last byte 14:22:13 i don't think it's possible to trim anything more 14:22:24 I gotta learn assembler 14:22:25 wrote it for a 512-byte bootloader 14:22:41 do you follow osdev.org forums? 14:22:42 which loads the linux kernel in high memory along with a ramdisk 14:22:47 provides a commandline 14:22:52 does keyboard mapping 14:22:59 and prints error messages 14:23:04 wait, in 512 bytes? 14:23:07 yea 14:23:14 damn.... 14:23:19 well, I've got a way to go 14:23:28 http://flexotec.eu/~flexo/p2/tinyldr.asm 14:23:34 it's more like 450 or so 14:23:39 hopefully I'll learn asm at some point 14:23:40 still have 50 bytes to spend :) 14:24:35 heh, I cheated to 512: times 510-($-$$) db 0 14:24:54 this was fun 14:25:00 and the reason for doing it 14:25:02 was even better 14:25:10 Indeed, though, it seems inevitable, fix one thing, break another 14:25:14 as has just happened 14:25:19 wanted to play doom with a couple of guys 14:25:25 we were really drunk at the time 14:25:36 and we were missing a third pc 14:25:39 lol, as only drunk people play that game :P 14:25:49 so i dug up a really old box 14:25:58 some 486 i think 14:26:07 turned out the pci controller on the motherboard was fried 14:26:13 so.. no ide controller 14:26:15 means no harddrive 14:26:22 but that's not a problem, right? 14:26:32 no pci slots too, but the board had two isa slots 14:26:39 heh 14:26:42 you're brave 14:26:45 i had a isa vga adapter 14:26:50 and some 10mbit ethernet adapter too 14:27:02 now the problem was, how to get doom to run on it 14:27:15 as it needs much more space than fits on a floppy 14:27:22 god's truth, most people throw away "garbage" 14:27:23 ... and i only had exactly one floppy drive 14:27:27 and exactly one floppy 14:27:48 right, so what did you do? PAQ8? 14:27:54 so i figured, i needed a very small linux kernel 14:28:01 downloaded some 2.6 kernel 14:28:08 stripped it of all drivers i didn't need 14:28:16 ended up with 1.1mb, which was fine 14:28:21 (all while being drunk) 14:28:29 yea, took me a couple of hours :) 14:28:37 i remembered that you don't need a boatloder, dd'ed it on the disk, tried to boot it but no go 14:28:50 they removed the bootloader from the linux kernel in the 2.6 version 14:28:59 so instead of doing the smart thing and using a 2.4 kernel 14:29:03 i wrote that tinyldr 14:29:09 ofcourse at the time it wasn't as sexy 14:29:21 lots of hardcoded stuff, no command prompt 14:29:25 lol, genius :P 14:29:44 put together busybox 14:29:48 nfs-mounted a directory 14:29:53 played doom for 10 minutes or so 14:29:54 it was fun 14:29:55 :) 14:30:07 * Hiato wonders whether flexo deserves to be shot or idoloized, or both 14:30:22 hehe 14:30:50 talk about disproportionate effort. Why didn't you just write doom from scratch, in binary? Would've been way more worth those then minutes 14:31:19 i'm just no the graphics guy 14:31:21 *not 14:31:29 ;) 14:31:39 no rules about using pre-made .wad's :P 14:32:01 actually i started redoing wolf3d once 14:32:17 (with a software renderer. the old-fashioned way. no opengl-crap) 14:32:37 i think i was 15 at the time 14:32:41 -!- comex has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:32:50 was my first "real" project 14:33:10 it could load the levels, you could run around 14:33:21 never got to implement sprites though 14:34:24 damn 14:34:42 hell, I struggled to put together a simple ray-caster in the easiest of all languages 14:34:58 did you manage? 14:35:05 sort of 14:35:07 otherwise i suggest the pxdtut .. tutorials :) 14:35:29 except the way I worked it, it could only draw one wall 14:35:37 TELEMACHOS proudly presents : | 14:35:37 | | 14:35:37 | Part 7 of the PXD trainers - | 14:35:37 | | 14:35:37 | RAYCASTING - WOLFENSTEIN | 14:35:39 | STYLE 14:35:42 those were the days.. 14:35:48 -!- comex has joined. 14:36:05 I didn't use a gird, rather objects with coords etc 14:36:12 heh 14:36:54 i've made a 2d raytracer once 14:37:09 oklopol: have you seen my "al-nibble-to-hex" sequence..? 14:37:10 Ok, now is discouragement time. There is so much left to do, even comparing my kernel to MikeOS v2... 14:37:38 oklopol, not the so called '2.5D'? 14:37:45 Hiato: what's that? 14:37:55 oklopol: as your nickname starts with an 'o' you should be able to appriciate it 14:38:01 *appreciate 14:38:29 Well, it's what we'd like to call three dimensional, as in wolfenstien, duke3d etc, but things can only be rotated in two dimensions, hence 2.5d 14:38:30 well color was also given as width in the result, and it wasn't really raytracing, i don't know the term, follow rays from eyes to objects. 14:38:38 Hiato: umm no. less than that 14:38:41 more like 2.1D 14:38:45 heh 14:38:53 but things can only be rotated in two dimensions, hence 2.5d 14:38:56 i mean it was a 2d arcade flying game. 14:39:07 wait. right. 14:39:10 2d rotation. 14:39:12 just eyecam view 14:39:13 duke3d does that 14:39:34 oh, I see 14:41:21 okay, I need a break. Thanks flexo for all the advice/work, I'm that much closer to something or other. 14:41:59 yea, you're welcome 14:43:54 i really want to get back into the fun area of coding :( 14:44:09 no more crappy win32 c++ or irix c 14:44:34 this is not fun. not really anyway. 15:01:17 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:14:00 -!- Arcanis` has joined. 15:20:06 -!- nono212 has joined. 15:20:08 hi ! 15:20:17 hi ! 15:20:21 how are you ? 15:20:26 fine, thank you 15:20:31 me too 15:20:36 that's cool 15:20:42 yea 15:20:46 more than cool 15:20:56 incredible 15:21:01 ... 15:21:48 i like SPL 15:22:42 ... 15:26:13 super porn language? 15:26:21 LOL 15:26:22 yes 15:26:24 :) 15:26:25 no 15:26:28 yeah that's pretty awesome 15:26:31 oh 15:26:31 ^^ 15:26:35 what then 15:26:41 shakespear i think 15:26:43 super porn xD 15:26:52 huge 15:27:15 KPL, you write with kamasutra positions... 15:27:26 if i create it i will be famous :) 15:27:28 haha 15:27:36 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:27:43 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:27:53 BSL, you write with boobs sizes 15:28:00 :) 15:32:40 -!- nono212 has quit ("Bon chat sur Uni-IRC"). 15:37:54 -!- Arcanis` has left (?). 15:44:21 -!- Corun has joined. 16:02:01 BSL: A..L, could mean either statements or values depending on context. "AAGAAIFAJAAJAAJDACIAHDAJDAJGAJAAIEAAA" could be read as "print 'Hello World'" :) 16:02:41 flexo, still there? 16:03:04 'A' begins print statement (or a string?), and then each group of thee characters is a base-12 encoding of ascii-codes, null-terminated. 16:03:09 Hiato: sure 16:03:27 Another brief mystery? (Though this one probably has an obvious solution) 16:03:33 go ahead 16:04:20 http://rafb.net/p/I5Tzfa77.html 16:04:49 Why does this insist of giving me 0FFFF when I call it with 65535, but with 255, it correctly gives 00FF 16:05:54 erk, 3->4, but still same problem 16:05:59 that was a mistake of mine earlier 16:06:13 curious, what do you get with 0xffff-1? 16:06:19 (I know it's vastly unoptimised etc) 16:06:23 let's see 16:06:50 It always gives at least one zero 16:06:51 0FFFE 16:06:58 oh? 16:07:10 Why so, MizardX? 16:07:26 line 34 jumps to format 16:07:34 oh. 16:07:39 yea. didnt see that. 16:08:03 only if cx<4 16:08:07 (note 3->4) 16:08:07 Hiato: you *really* dont wanna do it that way. 16:08:19 in hexadecimal each byte always corresponds to two digits 16:08:19 But I like cheap hacks :P 16:08:25 it's not a cheap hack 16:08:32 it's way more complicated than it should be 16:08:33 longer too 16:08:36 oh? 16:08:52 just go through the number, output the nibble and shift? 16:09:04 meh, you're right.. 16:09:05 heh 16:09:09 see my code 16:09:19 I like to overcomplicate things :P 16:09:27 http://rafb.net/p/RjhxBx56.html 16:09:36 at the bottom there is a putw 16:09:48 which outputs a 16bit word in hexadecimal - 4 digits 16:10:09 you know, that snippet includes routines for everything 16:10:23 putchar(), puts(), and stuff to output a nibble, a byte, and a word in hex 16:10:56 yeah, I suppose. Thing was, I was going to modify this routine to output in any base (one routine for base 10,16,8,2 etc) 16:11:04 flexo: oklopol: have you seen my "al-nibble-to-hex" sequence..? <<< no, is it worth seeing? 16:11:09 oklopol: yes! 16:11:16 cbw 16:11:16 sahf 16:11:16 aaa 16:11:16 aad 0x31 16:11:16 adc al, 0x30 16:11:22 beautiful, isn't it? 16:11:29 :D 16:11:33 now 16:11:35 the best thing is 16:11:42 if you happen to know that AF=0 and AH=0 16:11:46 you can skip the first two instructions 16:11:46 err 16:11:48 so you just have 16:11:50 aaa 16:11:50 aad 0x31 16:11:50 adc al, 0x30 16:12:05 note that the mnemonics are alphabetically sorted :) 16:12:12 heh 16:12:17 and contain only hexadecimal digits 16:12:19 it's just beautiful 16:12:32 and in 3 instructions, which i all abuse 16:12:37 umm 16:12:40 i manage to use both an undefined opcode and undefined flag behaviour 16:12:53 this is just great 16:12:54 are those used for... what's it umm bdc? 16:13:00 binary.. decimal... something 16:13:03 yes 16:13:15 but you don't have to use them for that 16:13:16 the trick is 16:13:24 yeah they need to have nibble stuff 16:13:25 when converting a nibble to hex you usually need to branch 16:13:29 based on a comparision with 10 16:13:34 that's where i got the BCD idea 16:13:52 the first AAA does that (well, it doesn't branch, but internally it does stuff differently when the number is >=10) 16:14:01 and "aad 0x31" is the undefined opcode 16:14:10 it's defined for "aad 10", i use "base 0x31" there 16:14:36 because 0x30 is '0' 16:14:38 well, that looks pretty awesome. 16:14:42 and 0x30+0x31 is 'a' 16:14:44 :) 16:15:00 i understand the general idea 16:15:02 it's really short too 16:15:19 but i don't know what a[ad][dc] do. 16:15:24 or don't remember 16:15:45 http://www.ecsl.cs.sunysb.edu/~srikant/386/AAA.htm 16:15:52 there is a pascal-like description 16:15:59 http://www.ecsl.cs.sunysb.edu/~srikant/386/AAD.htm 16:16:02 it's really simple 16:16:10 in the AAD just replace the 10 for my 0x31 16:16:45 AAA is 1 byte, AAD and ADC both 2 bytes. that's 5 bytes. :) 16:19:57 (and ADC is just add with carry ofcrouse) 16:20:19 oooo 16:20:24 Abusing those BCD arithmetic instructions like that is very nice. 16:20:33 thanks :) 16:20:58 Although I'm not sure I like the "ascii adjust" names of the instructions; there's not really that much "ascii" about them. 16:21:19 for me the initial A means 10, as in bcd. 16:21:20 in my code there isd 16:21:37 i suppose i figured out the true purpose 16:21:44 Z80 instruction set calls it "DAA" (decimal adjust accumulator) which makes more sensity. 16:21:45 the x86 isa is an esolang after all 16:23:15 unfortunatly x86_64 dropped the AAD instruction i think :( 16:23:36 or AAA? one of the two.. 16:24:12 o 16:25:03 i need to publish this crap for the world to see and USE (mwuahaha) 16:27:11 http://rafb.net/p/JLwZz179.html Fixed. It may not be as compact as your solution, but it is elegant in the sense that I can print however much I need 16:29:30 break time 16:31:05 yea 16:31:06 well 16:31:11 you don't have a 512 byte restriction 16:32:58 Random bit of trivia: the TI-86 calculator uses 9-byte BCD floats, with a seven-byte mantissa (14 decimal digits of precision) and two bytes for the exponent. 16:33:29 ... 16:33:43 fizzie: what the fuck? :D 16:33:54 ah well 16:34:05 Hrm, maybe I should learn asm some day 16:34:21 I got into an argument about this in one of our university courses, because the lecturer refused to believe me. 16:34:46 well i wonder why... 16:36:16 She was all "no, no, it might be converted to decimal for displaying, but internally all computatators that do floating-point maths use a binary format". I had to provide proof in the format of some TI-86 databook. 16:38:13 i think the next POWER arch will feature native decimal FP 16:40:17 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 17:01:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_spot_(vision) 17:01:34 fun! 17:29:44 -!- landeguy has joined. 17:30:12 -!- landeguy has quit (Client Quit). 17:31:11 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 17:34:11 -!- Corun has joined. 17:35:55 flexo: is a word signed, by default? 17:37:03 rather, how, if possible, can one debug nasm code? 17:38:44 but BCD *is* a binary format, right? 17:40:25 uhm.. 17:45:58 Hiato: you don't really know what you are talking about 17:47:07 nope, I can safely say 17:47:38 which is why I figured stuff it and let's just make it for unsigned 17:48:02 there is such thing as signed words. 17:48:06 there are just words 17:48:20 add/sub work the same for signed and unsigned numbers 17:48:41 and fr division and multiplicaation there is div/idiv and mul/imul 17:49:20 the signflag tells you if a signed number is negative, but if it is a signed number at all (and if you choose to interpret the signflat) is your choice 17:49:35 and about debugging... 17:49:43 "nasm code". what's that? 17:49:47 nasm is just an assembler 17:49:58 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:50:43 Okay, thanks for clearing that up. What I meant was is there a NASM-IDE type thing that will let you trace asm? 17:51:16 uhm. no. 17:51:31 but any debugger lets you step on the instruction level. 17:51:35 you should know that 17:52:06 (that "aad 0x31" is that undefined opcode thingie, but it works fine) <-- huh? I don't know x86 asm well enough to know what you are talking about there 17:52:44 AnMaster: the mnemonic AAD really has no operand 17:52:53 it's binary encoding is 0xd5 0x0a 17:53:06 but people figured out that that 0x0a is actually an operand after all 17:53:14 and you can put in different bases instead of 10 17:53:39 didn't work on certain 8086 clones (notably the nec v20 and v30) but has been silently (undocumented) supported ever since 17:54:33 hm 17:55:22 flexo, Isn't AAD for BCD? 17:55:30 yes :) 17:55:47 flexo, it is invalid in long mode 17:55:50 i know :( 17:55:51 that is on x86_64 17:56:07 i've already written that in the dialog above 17:56:11 ah 17:56:13 missed that 17:56:59 but protected mode (or long mode for that matter) assembler is boring anyway 17:57:27 well 17:57:28 what i mean is 17:57:44 if you do 32bit/64bit assembly you are usually using a proper operating system 17:57:50 using boring system services 17:58:00 also I wouldn't write much asm manually in a kernel, I would only write what is needed in asm, the rest in C, and only if there were performance issues, I would rewrite parts in asm if that would help. I would profile before of course 17:58:05 using elaborate sane APIs 17:58:23 assembler isn't much fun these days 17:58:27 RISC took it all away 17:58:27 flexo, yes I'm the type of person who end up writing sane APIs if there are none 17:58:38 also, x86 is CSIC 17:58:52 flexo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_spot_(vision) <<< you haven't noticed that yourself? 17:58:59 it is the most bloated CISCy I ever seen 17:59:04 yea.. but if you want to write performant code you have to reduce the instruction set. 17:59:09 (on modern cpus that is) 17:59:37 writing speedy application-level 32bit x86 assembly isn't so much different from handcrafting RISC assembly 17:59:56 except the fact that you don't always have to explicitly load/store 18:00:03 still, it's boring 18:00:33 flexo, you need to calculate on instruction cycle count on x86 18:00:39 on RISC that is much less of an issue 18:00:44 not really 18:01:11 I mean, usually most n cycles, with a few, maybe call and similar, takes more 18:01:15 but on x86 it varies a lot 18:01:19 not anymore 18:01:29 the only exception being mul/div 18:01:56 flexo, really? It varies a lot according to the AMD64 optimising guide. 18:01:57 besides that all instructions you *should* be using execute in n "cycles" (where n is constant) 18:02:27 flexo, depends, what about SYSENTER/SYSEXIT 18:02:27 okay, i admin, i've been out of the loop for a while 18:02:35 iirc they vary a bit 18:03:06 but up until the athlon XP AMD (and intel too) tried to bring the compiler generated instructions all down to n cycles 18:03:15 where n was 1/3 fr the athlon xp 18:03:17 yep, but that may be because that is the Intel one and this is AMD docs 18:03:27 optimizing code is about so much more than fiddling with the cycle counts 18:03:39 yea 18:03:41 flexo, well most take integer cycles 18:03:41 it's inserting nops 18:03:49 if you check latency table 18:03:52 so your instructions are aligned with a cacheline 18:04:14 AnMaster: seriously, what about those instructions? 18:04:22 flexo, what about which ones? 18:04:29 if you wanna multiple, you have to use the multiply instruction (except for those shift cases, yes) 18:04:39 even the LEA tricks are not really worthwhile anymore 18:04:52 sometimes they are faster, usually they just clog address generation 18:04:58 flexo, I read about reducing that too, it was quite an interesting research paper 18:05:13 about strength reducing modulo by using addition and shift 18:05:19 to work for "not power of 2 cases" 18:05:21 yes 18:05:24 been there 18:05:25 it talked about division and so on too 18:05:26 done that 18:05:35 for multiplication it's *slightly* faster 18:05:40 yo. 18:05:48 but only very slightly 18:05:59 flexo, personally I write C and watches happily, and *without* a headache while it does that strength reduction for me :P 18:06:05 s/it/gcc/ 18:06:06 yea 18:06:11 my brainfuck compiler actually does that 18:06:13 actually 18:06:24 a large part of the compiler consists of that multiplication-optimization 18:06:25 because it was fun 18:06:26 ;) 18:07:15 i suppose not as sophisticated as your research paper though :) 18:07:17 flexo, hm my bf compiler compiles to C (with some optimising of course, like converting balanced loops with no IO to polynoms and such) 18:07:36 AnMaster: you should try outputting assembler instead 18:07:38 flexo, anyway I'm looking for the link to that paper 18:07:51 flexo, well, sure, but I use several different arches daily 18:07:55 when i make my compiler output c and use gcc -O3 to compile the resulting binary is actually slower 18:08:03 I have no interest in writing ppc, x86 and x86_64 versions 18:08:08 of an user space program 18:08:09 (and takes like 100 times more time) 18:08:23 flexo, what I might do in that case would be output LLVM code 18:08:45 (with some optimising 18:08:45 of course, like converting balanced loops with no IO to 18:08:45 polynoms and such) 18:09:01 ^ was that erlang thingie yours? 18:09:41 flexo, er? I use Erlang sometimes, but what has that got to do with a compiler to C? 18:09:50 no wait 18:09:51 haskell 18:09:57 anyway the bf compiler was written in C too 18:10:04 oh okay 18:10:06 flexo, found it: http://www.cag.lcs.mit.edu/commit/papers/99/mdopt-TM.ps 18:10:10 there is a haskell bf2c compiler floating around 18:10:25 flexo, and I said I was *learning* haskell, but maybe you were drunk then, don't know 18:10:27 does some good optimization. not as good as mine though ;) 18:10:42 flexo, link to source code of yours? 18:10:44 no, the one i got really is written in haskell 18:10:47 well 18:10:52 i could upload it 18:10:54 but i warn you 18:10:56 flexo, I'm afraid my optimiser and constant propagator is rather a mess 18:10:58 it's unmaintainble mess 18:11:04 oh you too? 18:11:04 and needs a complete rewrite 18:11:04 :) 18:11:15 it produces *very* efficient code though 18:11:33 give me a second, i'll upload it 18:12:02 flexo, same goes for mine, constant propagation (after a [-] it tries to track that memory cell so [-] -> "set 0" (special cased), [-]++ -> "set 3") 18:12:12 yes 18:12:13 mine too 18:12:16 (and it reorders when possible) 18:12:20 i also do "while" => "if" optimization 18:12:22 reordering 18:12:26 "mac" => "mul" 18:12:35 flexo, what about turning +++[>++++<-] into a single polynom? 18:12:37 did you do that 18:12:44 sure? 18:12:48 ok 18:12:50 well actually 18:12:54 "mac" => "mul" <-- what would that be? 18:12:55 that one will become a single add 18:12:56 ;) 18:13:01 well 18:13:02 flexo, yes it would in the end 18:13:17 "multiply and accumulate" becomes just "multiply" when adding to a zero ofcourse 18:13:33 strips out more dependencies, often leads to other optimization passes further striping out code 18:14:08 flexo, but point is you can turn any balanced loop (even nested ones, though that is messy) with no IO into a polynom 18:14:18 i do 18:14:24 no wait 18:14:25 i don't 18:14:32 not nested ones 18:14:35 but yea, ofcourse you can 18:14:38 flexo, hm I'm not sure about this "multiply and accumulate", example bf code? 18:14:47 your example is an example 18:15:01 it's multiplication and adding the result to a cell 18:15:07 that's MAC in assembler 18:15:32 flexo, only issue is GCC bails out with ICE when compiling the generated file for lostkingdom... Since I put all the generated code in main() 18:15:43 lostkingdom, whats that? 18:16:08 I guess I should split the tree up 18:16:08 flexo, a huge text adventure in bf 18:16:13 flexo, considered somewhat like "acid test for bf implementations" 18:16:21 http://jonripley.com/i-fiction/games/LostKingdomBF.html 18:16:34 2.08 MB bf file :D 18:16:34 http://flexotec.eu/~flexo/pinky.tar.gz 18:16:37 thats my implementation 18:16:38 beware 18:16:45 just copied my dev directory 18:16:48 might be seriously broken 18:16:53 seems to be working though 18:17:01 "beware of the brainfuck interpreter", nice idea 18:17:08 instead of "beware of the dog" 18:17:36 flexo, is it 64-bit clean :D 18:17:38 ;P 18:17:39 (linux / x86 "ofcourse") 18:17:42 no idea 18:17:52 give it a try. curious. otherwise do -m32 18:17:56 oh, and you'll need nasm 18:18:04 oh. and it will definitly generate 32bit code 18:18:08 flexo, I don't have nasm, I have yasm though 18:18:18 won't do i think 18:18:23 flexo, personally I prefer AT&T syntax 18:18:29 i hate at&t 18:18:40 at&t syntax is what gnu as uses right? 18:18:43 flexo, well everyone arch except x86 seems to use it 18:18:46 yea so? 18:18:48 if so, AnMaster, you suck even more 18:18:48 it still sucks 18:18:56 flexo, I'm used to it 18:19:03 AnMaster: yes, you can get used to it 18:19:03 from ppc and so on 18:19:07 i used it too for a while 18:19:12 i just don't like it ;) 18:19:17 you're wasting your time flexo 18:19:36 flexo, well someone used to vi will find emacs hard and someone used to emacs will find vi hard 18:19:43 so 18:19:44 lets see 18:19:48 how many cells does LK need? 18:19:56 flexo, no clue 18:19:58 a lot iirc 18:20:16 is it okay with 32bit cells?= 18:20:22 looks so 18:20:31 You can see: some matches (2) 18:20:31 >get matches 18:20:31 I didn't understand that. 18:20:31 > 18:20:32 !? 18:20:41 perfectly fast 18:20:43 flexo, I get lots of warnings 18:20:45 feels like a normal c program 18:20:49 and compiled in 3 seconds 18:20:52 from compiling pinky 18:21:04 flexo, want me to pastebin? 18:21:11 stop being such a compiler warning nazi 18:21:12 sure 18:21:13 :| 18:21:13 I did make clean before 18:21:18 ehird, standard cflags... 18:21:23 it shouldn't do that 18:21:31 http://rafb.net/p/ECxMtZ83.html 18:21:31 there 18:21:31 oh wait 18:21:37 i'm not exactly sure what "standard cflags" are to AnMaster but I'm worried 18:21:50 ehird, CFLAGS='-pipe -march=k8' 18:21:53 no warings 18:21:55 warnings* 18:21:57 no -O 18:22:02 AnMaster: yea, it's cool 18:22:06 are you going through rehabilitation or something 18:22:06 anyway it ignored my cflags 18:22:09 i get most of them too 18:22:10 src/opnode.c:222: warning: format ‘%p’ expects type ‘void *’, but argument 3 has type ‘struct OpNode *’ 18:22:15 well that's idiotic. 18:22:20 indeed 18:22:21 ehird, no I just use -Wall and so on for my own projects 18:22:23 and I still do 18:22:58 anyway, it should work. 18:23:09 don't know about these warnings 18:23:15 i think most of them creeped in by a gcc update 18:23:15 ld: i386 architecture of input file `LostKng.o' is incompatible with i386:x86-64 output 18:23:17 hah 18:23:27 $ file LostKng.o 18:23:27 LostKng.o: ELF 32-bit LSB relocatable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV) 18:23:36 yea well 18:23:37 flexo, well apart from your call to ld not working 18:23:43 what did you expect 18:23:59 that's what you get for using 64bit :p 18:24:00 ld -m elf_i386 LostKng.o 18:24:01 that works 18:24:11 >t matches 18:24:11 You need to specify an item. 18:24:11 >t some matches 18:24:11 You need to specify an item. 18:24:11 >t2 18:24:13 Taken. 18:24:15 > 18:24:18 lame 18:24:22 flexo, eh? 18:24:22 AnMaster: i compiled with -f1000000 18:24:33 flexo, and what does -f1000000 do 18:24:33 ? 18:24:38 fieldsize 1000000 18:24:42 ah 18:24:45 flexo: of course it's lame 18:24:47 it's brainfuck :P 18:24:50 well, highly retarded basic 18:24:51 flexo, well 18:24:52 compiled to brainfuck 18:24:52 $ ./pinky 18:24:52 Usage: pinky FILE 18:24:59 default is 66553... well... actually it's 665530 because i messed around with the hardcoded stuff 18:25:15 flexo, don't you grow on demand? 18:25:18 AnMaster: yea.. see pinky.c 18:25:20 mine does 18:25:21 nope 18:25:28 would be easily doable though ofcourse 18:25:28 flexo: why not just use the main RAM 18:25:31 which means it is slower but more robust 18:25:34 no 18:25:35 not slower 18:25:41 and trap segfaults 18:25:41 just mmap and mprotect a page at the end 18:25:44 trap the signal 18:25:46 :DD 18:25:47 flexo, well since I need to check for out of bounds in mine 18:25:48 flexo: WE THINK ALIKE. 18:25:52 I don't trap segfault 18:25:54 but you could 18:25:59 out of bounds checking is for losers 18:26:04 AnMaster: interesting option is -d 18:26:10 which dumps the optimized IL 18:26:16 flexo, you found mine? 18:26:24 mine? yours? what? 18:26:38 he's talking about his. 18:26:42 flexo, iirc mine dumps optimised parser tree with -d too... 18:26:46 so you confused me there 18:26:48 oh. 18:26:54 flexo, iirc fizzie traps segfault in jitfunge 18:26:54 no. talking about mine. 18:27:13 anyway about trapping segfaults and messing with stuff in the registers, is this even documented? 18:27:21 I mean, of course it isn't portable 18:27:29 between different cpus 18:27:34 ofcourse it's documented 18:27:41 flexo, what man page? 18:27:43 should even be portable 18:27:49 man mmap, man mprotect, man signal 18:27:51 flexo, to freebsd and so on? 18:28:00 i think so 18:28:03 should be POSIX 18:28:20 flexo, I mean about trapping segfaults, what if you segfault for something else 18:28:23 like a bug 18:28:31 sigh 18:28:42 SBCL traps segfault to handle allocation. 18:28:46 I'm pretty sure it's not an issue. 18:28:55 ehird, SBCL uses an 8 GB static array 18:28:56 AnMaster: you enter non-portable areas there 18:29:05 you can check the instruction pointer and check what instructions caused the sefault 18:29:05 AnMaster: ... 18:29:06 you have no idea what you're talkinga bout 18:29:09 but that's obviousl not portable 18:29:27 ehird, well I know it uses a huge static array and depends on linux overcommiting memory 18:29:32 er 18:29:34 on x86_64 it is 8 GB, on x86 less 18:29:36 actually it's sigaction() 18:29:37 sbcl works on non-linux. 18:29:38 not signal(), sorry 18:30:05 CONFORMING TO POSIX.1-2001, SVr4. 18:31:20 AnMaster: so. the compiled program worked? 18:31:25 flexo, yes 18:31:39 ehird, http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=474402 18:31:55 yes 18:32:02 but sbcl _does_ trap segfault 18:32:05 ok not static, it was mmap() 18:32:10 that's a fact 18:32:10 ehird, why would it need to do that? 18:32:17 -!- kar8nga has quit (Connection timed out). 18:32:22 if it uses a huge area that it depends on is allocated as needed 18:32:23 AnMaster: ask the sbcl devs. 18:33:05 uhm. 18:33:13 mhm 18:33:34 muhm 18:33:35 if you want to implement an on-demand growing blob of memory 18:33:39 you have to use mmap()? 18:33:47 well yeah 18:33:48 flexo, is there any -h or --help for pinky? 18:33:50 then trap segfault 18:33:55 AnMaster: can't you read c? 18:34:03 AnMaster: yes, it's $ vi src/pinky.c 18:34:11 see main() 18:34:17 bash: vi: command not found 18:34:17 Did you mean: emacs? 18:34:17 flexo: careful 18:34:19 ;P 18:34:20 no 18:34:20 AnMaster is about to start 18:34:21 yeah. 18:34:22 i meant vi 18:34:30 as it's guaranteed to be there 18:34:36 as specified by the single unix spefication 18:34:47 AnMaster probably uninstalled it manually because he hates vi and everyone who uses it and is objectively right and wants to prove a point. 18:34:48 (yea, not exactly true, but close enough) 18:34:56 flexo, well, many linux distros use nano by default these days 18:35:05 not when you run vi(1). 18:35:06 vi was not default, nor was emacs 18:35:09 only nano was 18:35:14 that is utterly irrelevant 18:35:18 which is an interesting way around the editor war 18:35:20 AnMaster: didn't you just babble about portability? 18:35:36 flexo, yes, and in practise vi isn't portable 18:35:42 yes it is. 18:36:14 flexo: you're asking for consistency out of AnMaster 18:36:23 ehird: yea, i'm slowly getting it 18:36:34 yes, until he dodges the question with a bad joke 18:36:46 yea 18:36:51 also what I asked was: is this documented, and well defined, to trap sigsegv and then jump back to continue exection after calling mmap() 18:36:55 yes. 18:37:00 why don't you read the standard 18:37:04 instead of getting everyone else to. 18:37:26 ehird, iirc some standard, C or POSIX say it is undefined to touch anything but volatile variables in signal handlers 18:37:29 i know that's what you asked, and that's why i already had given you an answer to that question 18:37:43 i doubt posix says that 18:37:54 flexo, I'm quite sure C99 does 18:37:58 perhaps you could declare the mmaped stuff volatile then 18:37:58 so? 18:38:01 your point being...? 18:38:02 OMG CRAZY 18:38:58 According to POSIX, the behavior of a process is undefined after it 18:38:58 ignores a SIGFPE, SIGILL, or SIGSEGV signal that was not generated by 18:38:59 kill(2) or raise(3). 18:39:00 oh well 18:39:11 see? 18:39:14 I was right :P 18:39:22 you're right only going by a tedious, broken standard 18:39:30 here's a challenge: find a system it breakso n 18:39:35 ehird, one which you suggested I should read just above 18:39:36 that more than 3 people use 18:39:37 I'll wait here 18:39:39 why don't you read the standard 18:39:43 AnMaster: yes, because you were the one asking about it./ 18:39:44 you referred to it as well 18:39:50 ... 18:40:23 flexo: link to pinky? 18:40:26 ehird, that you can never admit that you lost in a discussion... 18:40:31 http://flexotec.eu/~flexo/pinky.tar.gz 18:40:31 a character flaw 18:40:36 again 18:40:38 beware 18:40:40 AnMaster: umm, that's because I didn't 18:40:42 moron 18:40:43 this is ugly unmaintanble code 18:40:45 none of you can, I imagine 18:41:02 Badger: unlike AnMaster i don't react with a joke in that situation, at least 18:41:04 complex, ugly, unmaintanble code 18:41:07 ehird, yes, but you then pretend you said something else all the time, even when the scrollback shows you didn't 18:41:12 what 18:41:21 (this happens when people who don't finish highschool end up writing compilers) 18:41:22 you're an idiot. I told you to read the standard because YOU ASKED IF IT WAS STANDARD 18:41:36 that is ABSOLUTELY not inconsistent with calling the standard stupid 18:41:36 ehird, and I said I was pretty sure it wasn't 18:41:40 then you said it was 18:41:41 that is also irrelveant 18:42:02 but i plan on doing a new pinky 18:42:09 what's pinky? 18:42:14 along with a proper CFG and SSA optimization 18:42:18 Badger: http://flexotec.eu/~flexo/pinky.tar.gz 18:42:26 my highly optimizing brainfuck compiler 18:42:31 (x86, linux) 18:42:32 o_O 18:42:38 oh, linux only 18:42:38 :< 18:42:44 ehird: should be 18:42:46 you wrote a bf compiler 18:42:47 oh wells 18:42:48 very easy to port 18:42:51 bsd? 18:42:57 ehird, also I was waiting for the pdf with POSIX to load, for some reason it hasn't yet finished opening 18:42:57 flexo: err, you could say bsd :-) 18:43:00 darwin? 18:43:03 :x 18:43:03 * Badger shudders 18:43:04 maybe 18:43:05 :-) 18:43:13 alright 18:43:25 Badger, I agree 18:43:30 just look into x86.c 18:43:33 about the shudder for darwin 18:43:39 hah 18:43:44 see the GETC/SETC case 18:43:44 I meant for a brainfuck compiler :P 18:43:52 Badger: ssh, don't ruin his ideological associations 18:43:58 and replace by a syscall on your system 18:43:59 Badger, well what is so odd with that? Many people have written that 18:44:08 Badger, some to asm, some to machine code, some to C 18:44:12 and so on 18:44:44 esoteric languages are inherently evil :P 18:44:46 ehird: i could also give you a ruby script which converts the IL to C 18:44:55 Badger, what on earth are you doing here then? :P 18:45:02 but as i said, gcc -O3 produces worse code than pinky directly 18:45:06 flexo, cool 18:45:11 * ehird peeks at x86 18:45:17 and takes ages to compile 18:45:20 #ifdef __STRICT_ANSI__ 18:45:20 # undef __STRICT_ANSI__ 18:45:21 #endif 18:45:23 :D 18:45:25 hehe 18:45:39 #if defined(DJGPP) 18:45:39 #error djgpp 18:45:41 #include 18:45:43 #error posix 18:45:45 #elif defined(POSIX) 18:45:47 is that meant to make sense? 18:45:55 nope 18:45:57 don't remember 18:45:59 ha 18:46:01 i did a djgpp port 18:46:11 but i suppose this "branch" doesnt include that code 18:46:14 lost it :) 18:46:50 Hm 18:47:19 the compiler actually gets faster with more optimization passes 18:47:27 because the real bottleneck is all the sprintf() outputting the assembler 18:48:15 ehird: oh, and you need to adjust the program epilogue too at the end of the file 18:48:19 to terminate the process 18:48:22 but on the other hand 18:48:26 it will die anyway 18:48:33 hehe 18:48:43 18:43 CTCP-query VERSION from flexo 18:48:44 oh sneaky 18:49:34 just spotted a buf 18:49:35 bug 18:49:39 if(curr->type == MUL && curr->val == -1) 18:49:46 i'm fairly certain that should be val < 0 18:49:47 i spot bufs all the time 18:50:51 I noticed quite a few open source projects with a section titled "Executive Summary" recently on their websites, in their README or such. One example is the README of valgrind. Hm, maybe I should add one to cfunge ;) 18:50:54 ~ 18:50:57 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:51:07 ehird: oh, and see pinky.h 18:51:15 you should probably add a new target 18:51:17 "Executive summary: this program has no use whatsoever." 18:51:23 feel free to do it and send me a patch ;) 18:51:29 :) 18:51:50 -!- Corun has joined. 18:52:05 olsner, well it would end up very strange for a esolang interpreter 18:52:21 * AnMaster wonders if Java2K has one... It would fit perfectly with it 18:53:38 pinky needs a register allocator too 18:55:27 and i'm not optimizing nested ifs to compare less/greater 18:56:17 flexo, in the optimiser are you working on the program in the form of a tree or? 18:56:23 yes 18:56:36 flexo, which file is the optimiser in? 18:56:39 pinky.c 18:56:52 optimize() 18:57:34 * AnMaster looks for how the OPTIMIZATION macro is defined 18:57:38 omg my leg is numb 18:57:43 evil preprocessor magic 18:58:01 it's just for debugging purposes 18:58:11 flexo, so what parameter is relevant then? 18:58:19 what do you mean? 18:58:32 oh wait 18:58:35 just ignore the OPTIMIZATION() itself 18:58:37 it is just a debug macro? 18:58:38 ah ok 18:59:11 it dumps the cell contents on entry along with the performed optimization (code line) when done 18:59:17 err 18:59:25 the opnode, not the cell 18:59:26 OPTIMIZATION(curr) {\n ... \n} <-- to me that looks like a macro that does something stupid, like a condition with nothing after, since there was a { on the same line 18:59:30 and no ; after 19:00:46 OpNode *scope; ? 19:00:54 what is the scope? 19:01:01 read the code 19:01:11 ehird, what do you think I am doing? 19:01:18 asking flexo to read the code for you 19:01:19 I'm reading the data structure definition 19:01:36 there is no documentation, thus the data structure is undocumented 19:01:41 so? 19:01:42 there's code. 19:01:43 read the code. 19:01:49 that's surprisingly common in programming. 19:02:01 so 19:02:29 OPTIMIZATION() turns to a for() loop 19:02:47 19:53 < AnMaster> what is the scope? <= the parent node in the tree ofcourse 19:03:04 flexo, then why is there a OpNode *parent; member as well 19:03:05 (my internet connection is somewhat fleky right now) 19:03:32 i don't know, what line are you talking about? 19:03:50 opnode.h 19:03:54 struct OpNode 19:04:00 I'm talking about it's members 19:04:08 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 19:04:15 ah 19:04:40 you know 19:04:43 yes? 19:04:45 that's a good question 19:05:00 i think i remember 19:05:18 i added that for the LOAD/MUL 19:05:29 a MUL is inside a LOAD in the tree 19:05:38 but it's scope is actually the LOAD's parent 19:05:48 LOAD() is "set constant"? 19:06:06 well.. LOAD loads a bf cell into the accumulator 19:06:22 hm ok 19:06:41 MUL multiplies it with a constant and stors the result in a cell 19:06:50 MAC adds the result 19:07:12 copying is done by MUL 1 19:07:19 my internet connection is really breaking down here 19:07:23 i need my own line 19:07:33 WEP WLANs just don't do the job 19:08:15 i spent the last 10 minutes shifting my laptop over the table 19:08:33 flexo, hm how would you optimise this +++[>++<<--<[-]+>>-] 19:08:42 I assume to a few set constants 19:09:00 at least if it was know the "iterator" cell was 0 before +++ 19:09:24 trying to find the optimal position to get in reach of the house on the other side of the street 19:09:35 yes 19:09:41 ssh, AnMaster will rant to you about how that's illegal 19:09:47 in case you weren't aware or something 19:09:56 ehird, why would I do that? 19:10:00 you always do 19:10:22 ehird, when did I "rant" about using wlan without permission? 19:10:24 hm. 19:10:27 I don't remember ever doing it 19:10:29 actually i kinda fail to optimize that. 19:10:30 oh well. 19:10:33 you rant about X for all X where illegal(X) 19:10:56 no, it's cool 19:11:01 i do MAC spoofing and all 19:11:14 -!- asiekierk has joined. 19:11:23 ehird, well I want a specific example of this please for WLAN. Otherwise it is just spreading lies 19:11:31 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ymGAujZAaY - ...wtf 19:11:35 all traffic is routed to a server in the netherlands 19:11:36 no, it's based on past behaviour 19:11:52 encrypted with XTEA 19:12:01 i'm kinda paranoid when it comes to WEP 19:12:03 for obvious reasons 19:12:04 flexo, hm? 19:12:05 :) 19:12:16 hm hm? 19:12:18 " all traffic is routed to a server in the netherlands" <-- what? 19:12:27 ...is anyone watching my animation!? 19:12:29 sounds like an China... 19:12:36 if they route everything to a server 19:12:53 yea.. when i break in other peoples WLANs i never just use their router 19:12:59 hacked together a simple VPN 19:13:05 well, not really a VPN 19:13:09 it's very specific for my purposes 19:13:11 flexo, also I never heard of such stuff in the Netherlands, I thought they were democratic and didn't reroute peoples traffic 19:13:29 also, it sends all packets 5 times 19:13:39 because my wireless links tend to be somewhat.. unstable 19:13:44 oh you mean you route through a server in the netherlands 19:13:44 AnMaster: huh? 19:13:47 yes 19:13:58 signal-to-noise ratio: +6 dB 19:13:59 not that the gov in netherlands route traffic strangely 19:14:04 typing via ssh is kinda hard right now 19:14:06 right 19:14:16 asiekierk: that was awesome 19:14:26 ...seriously? 19:14:41 Do I have such a talent to make puppet toons? 19:14:45 no 19:14:45 ;) 19:14:46 :D 19:14:51 hopefully! 19:14:53 well it was... unexpected. 19:14:58 I thought that was really awesome :/ 19:14:58 i have no own internet connection for 2 years now 19:15:00 but i just moved 19:15:07 and the WLANs here just suck 19:15:11 getting ADSL again.. 19:15:16 asiekierk, question, since I don't often use youtube, how do you rate 0 stars? 19:15:17 flexo i have a wlan you could use. 19:15:24 thanks very much 19:15:24 AnMaster: don't be a jerk 19:15:26 I mean the lowest possible seems to be 1 star 19:15:28 AnMaster: You can't. 19:15:35 You can rate 0 stars by not voting at all though 19:15:38 :D 19:15:38 ehird, no I was wondering in general 19:15:48 if the lowest you can rate is 1 star 19:15:52 then maybe you can't rate 0 stars 19:15:54 ehird, because if he posts to youtube he must obviously know it 19:15:56 omfgbbq 19:16:14 ehird, I thought it was a case of PEBKAC 19:16:15 ... 19:17:18 boring! 19:18:10 Wait, did anyone really watch my movie, cuz i see 3 views 19:18:19 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating..."). 19:18:23 -!- ehird has joined. 19:18:23 and 2 people other than you watched it 19:18:24 i didn't 19:18:29 asiekierk: just assume no one cares about anything anyone else does. desperately wanting people to give an opinion when they aren't interested, that is, pretty much every time you don't get a spontaneous answer from anyone, just forces them to try to find a nice way to tell you they don't care. 19:18:29 because i can't 19:18:35 i get only like 30 kb/s.. 19:18:43 asiekierk, I did, but not using youtube, I don't have flash 19:18:56 I use another way to use mplayer directly on the video 19:18:56 AnMaster: what happened at the end? 19:19:12 asiekierk, I'm still waiting for the cache to fill 19:19:12 if you watched it, you should know 19:19:22 oh-kay 19:19:25 Going to wait 19:19:28 it is 2 seconds in and report "speed: 0.0" 19:19:33 * AnMaster think connection broke 19:19:37 and asiekierk's infinite patience shows again 19:20:06 you mean n'tfinite 19:20:12 i mean 19:20:12 finite 19:20:19 :) 19:21:11 well now it worked, but I aborted after half a minute, can't stand that high pitched voice when I have a headache 19:21:35 :P 19:21:39 Low it down 19:21:42 the volume 19:21:52 asiekierk, well that doesn't help for the high pitched sound 19:21:58 or maybe you could use audacity or something to lower the pitch 19:22:01 unless I go to 0 19:22:08 go to 0 then 19:23:52 ^bool 19:23:52 No. 19:23:57 another ep? 19:23:58 ^bool 19:23:58 No. 19:24:01 asiekierk, well at the end the screen goes black 19:24:02 sure? 19:24:04 ^bool 19:24:04 No. 19:24:05 there is the answer 19:24:06 k 19:24:14 then reanswer, another ep? 19:24:16 ^bool 19:24:16 Yes. 19:24:17 k 19:24:20 AnMaster: What is the puppet playing during ~1:15 - ~1:30 19:24:25 is it doing anything 19:24:34 ^help 19:24:34 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 19:24:35 asiekierk, something behind a logo saying asie 09 19:24:38 ^show bool 19:24:45 Oh, the volume is 0 :/ 19:24:46 asiekierk, it seems to be using a ciggarette in some strange way, 19:24:50 and then falls down 19:24:54 AnMaster: It's a Stylophone 19:24:57 could be a pen? 19:24:59 a stylus-based instrument 19:25:03 ok 19:25:06 ^show bf bool 19:25:07 stylophones are awesome 19:25:18 ehird: Don't tell me you like have one 19:25:19 you people are weird 19:25:21 -!- nice has joined. 19:25:25 asiekierk: yes, I do. 19:25:31 woohoo! 19:25:44 -!- nice has changed nick to nice_ka. 19:27:53 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:28:21 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Nick collision from services.). 19:28:26 -!- nice_ka has changed nick to KingOfKarlsruhe. 19:28:38 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 19:29:00 asiekierk, well I don't really like electronic sounding music 19:29:06 no offence meant 19:29:13 it's just a matter of taste 19:29:29 ok 19:29:35 I finally got white socks 19:29:43 mhm? 19:29:46 So I can start my Sock Puppet Video Blog! 19:29:48 about as much as a matter of taste as when AnMaster spend ages whining about how much 'rock' sucked 19:29:55 [.....] 19:30:01 ehird, I said that I disliked it 19:30:05 asiekierk: could you have more violence, obscure jokes, swearing and sex in your next vid? 19:30:07 no you didn't 19:30:07 I didn't say this was true for everyone 19:30:15 oklopol: I'm only a kid 19:30:15 you know. sox park 19:30:17 obviously taste differs 19:30:21 oklopol, hehe 19:30:27 more like The Sockshit Stream 19:30:34 asiekierk: i'm barely older than you and i support oklopol's suggestion 19:30:39 i do not 19:30:50 I want to make it a vlog, and a game-reviewing series 19:30:50 :) 19:30:55 sox park would be an awesome name 19:30:55 then you suck. :| 19:31:09 southocks park 19:31:11 you too 19:31:19 how old are you? 19:31:21 ehird, well I'm not sure what that would *mean* 19:31:26 flexo: asiekierk is like 12. 19:31:29 i'm 13. 19:31:29 asiekierk: make a programming show 19:31:41 oklopol: C64 programming show 19:31:44 ehird, and yes there is a large difference there, you have gotten much better since then 19:31:49 Lol 19:31:54 moron 19:31:56 :) 19:32:22 it's actually just that I try to be nice to you occasionally just in case, always end up remembering you're an idiot th 19:32:23 tho 19:32:24 ehird: if that's an obscure joke you have to tell me, because, you know, no reason not to believe it 19:32:32 ehird, also maturity(sp?) it is individual, so not only that 19:32:34 flexo: maybe it's a joke _and_ serious 19:32:45 maybe 19:33:08 ehird, err, I thought it was the reverse :P 19:33:11 flexo: you'd get on with oklopol 19:33:15 or maybe it's all three 19:33:26 oklopol, which is the third option? 19:33:30 AnMaster: both 19:33:49 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 19:34:55 maybe i should get me a cuba libre 19:35:08 opinions? 19:35:24 yes 19:35:26 do it 19:35:30 alright 19:35:55 ".eu", what does that mean 19:36:09 europe, i suppose 19:37:03 i see i see. which city? 19:37:46 what XD 19:37:59 ehird: exactly 19:40:40 munich 19:41:13 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 19:41:43 flexo: ah. i live in the slums. 19:42:01 what slums? 19:42:34 northern europe, you know, at the docks. 19:42:51 i see 19:44:09 this cuba libre tastes a little much to .. rummy 19:44:44 i'm always too greedy 19:51:18 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:54:11 later 19:54:33 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 20:09:48 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 20:22:16 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:24:44 -!- seveninchbread has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:29:07 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:34:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:37:56 -!- asiekierk has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:43:11 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:53:59 anmaster 20:54:09 psygnisfive, ? 20:54:28 hey 20:54:39 miranda family languages arent eso.. as such 20:54:47 haskell is pretty esoteric 20:54:55 but its not the same kind of eso i guess 20:54:57 psygnisfive, as someone else already answered 20:54:58 ... 20:55:02 afk 20:55:04 slereah did i know 20:55:17 im just explaining more what _i_ was thinking :P 21:02:42 im bored, so im going to code a boring but fun thing 21:04:24 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:24:09 Which does what? 21:24:32 guess 21:30:42 ooooooooooo 21:53:49 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 21:55:32 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:55:34 -!- seveninchbread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 21:59:32 " boring but fun" 21:59:34 Wait, what? 22:00:56 yes 22:09:30 * ehird plays with paren-less lisp 22:27:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 22:45:59 BeholdMyGlory: Hello AnMaster. 22:46:42 eh 22:46:51 ehird, whoever that is he isn't me 22:46:54 wut? 22:46:59 AnMaster: arvid, .se 22:47:02 yeah right. that's what i said about hotidlerchick. 22:47:03 an 22:47:04 ehird, yes I agree 22:47:04 d 22:47:05 in #archlinux 22:47:10 yeah rite 22:47:19 Um 22:47:25 so weird 22:47:25 It's just the same top domain 22:47:30 I.e. same country 22:47:34 except IP doesn't match 22:47:36 indeed 22:47:49 I'm on d90-130-2-10.cust.tele2.se atm 22:47:56 dynamic ip though 22:48:12 I'm also .se 22:48:16 But I'm not AnMaster 22:48:18 (For the record) 22:48:20 FireFly, another thing, same name "* BeholdMyGlory (n=arvid@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se) has joined #esoteric" <-- my real name is Arvid 22:48:21 and I'm on d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se 22:48:22 ... 22:48:25 BeholdMyGlory doesn't really sound all that AnMastery. 22:48:29 hah 22:48:32 which is really strange 22:48:42 great to see another swede named arvid :P 22:48:42 also #archlinux too 22:48:50 BeholdMyGlory: you probably suck as much as him. 22:48:59 yw 22:49:02 ehird: how come? 22:49:04 I don't suck, you just hate me ;P 22:49:20 hate you? you? no. how can that be? 22:50:01 ehird, the channel list differs quite a bit too 22:50:30 ah 22:50:33 dbc is here 22:51:17 which, you know, is the main reason i'm hanging out here. the other reason being that i joined. 22:51:57 hah 22:51:57 :D 22:52:00 BeholdMyGlory, so now that we got person confusion sorted out, why did you come here? 22:53:09 AnMaster: hm. because esoteric languages are wierd. O.o 22:53:45 wierd is a specific esolang :P 22:53:49 well yes 22:54:06 ehird: why aren't I suprised? :P 22:54:29 hm. anyone interested in seeing "Hello World!" in my very own language? 22:54:43 ah. I'm just gonna post it anyway :P 22:55:02 well, what language is this? 22:55:04 <_+|+,,^..::>>___h>a^.-:*>*<__|,,^...e!a<_+|,!,^..:::l*o-a+||-o_a-:*>*<<+|,!!!s|a*><_+|+,,^^--**<<+++wo that's hello world 22:55:20 makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? 22:55:21 wow. 22:55:25 that's neat 22:55:29 how does it work? 22:55:41 interesting 22:55:47 every character is an operator 22:55:49 * AnMaster wonders the same 22:55:53 exept for letters 22:55:58 they are variables 22:56:01 BeholdMyGlory, what paradigm is this? 22:56:21 what the operators do, depend on what position they're at 22:56:29 :P 22:56:30 also it is pretty verbose for a single-char-per-command language 22:56:42 BeholdMyGlory, ouch ok 22:56:55 BeholdMyGlory, can you pastebin a spec or such 22:56:55 ? 22:57:08 AnMaster: uhm. not really 22:57:18 AnMaster: haven' gotten it all figured out yet 22:57:23 *haven't 22:57:46 BeholdMyGlory, ok, well, what about a preliminary spec? I mean it looks very interesting 22:57:54 but also impossible to guess without having a spec 22:58:16 BeholdMyGlory: do you have a way to loop or recurse? 22:58:27 AnMaster: i'm gonna create a page at esolangs when it's done 22:58:31 ah yes, lets check tc-ness 22:58:45 flexo: not yet, but it will 22:58:49 ... 23:00:12 any native english speakers here? 23:00:48 yes 23:00:49 me 23:01:04 tell me then.. there is some song or something, i don't know 23:01:09 the question just came up in another channel 23:01:14 BeholdMyGlory, You need (theoretical, as in the spec, not in any actual implementations) infinite memory, so if you have a limited number of variables and no way to store data in stacks, arrays, lambdas or whatever you aren't TC 3) a way to loop or recurse 23:01:19 for tc 23:01:24 of course it may still not be TC 23:01:26 a part of it goes like "she got her own" 23:01:33 but those are easy checks 23:01:47 Actually, BeholdMyGlory has a Java program which can run the above Hello World code.. 23:01:51 does that mean anything? how much slang is it? 23:01:55 -!- Corun has joined. 23:02:06 (not referencing some object ofcourse) 23:02:07 to actually prove something TC you need to prove it able to interpreter some "known TC" language 23:02:20 flexo: not enough context 23:02:26 FireFly: oh, you're in cahoots with him. 23:02:27 "i love her cause she got her own" 23:02:28 bloody swedes. 23:02:36 ;D 23:02:58 what've got against us? -.- 23:03:01 ah didn't know you were Swedish too FireFly :) 23:03:03 ehird: .. so? 23:03:09 Well now you do 23:03:15 hm 23:03:25 ehird: people are saying it means that "she's independent" 23:03:32 prolly 23:03:34 but i've never heard that phrase before 23:03:44 BeholdMyGlory: swedes are finns, except fake. and dirty 23:03:48 what do you mean by "probably"? don't guess from context, i can do that too :) 23:03:50 how many Finnish people are there now again. Lets see... oklo, fizzie, deewiant, and some more iirc? 23:03:54 hm 23:04:15 dewi 23:04:21 ilari 23:04:22 ah 23:04:30 5? 23:04:36 dewi is australian 23:04:39 oh. 23:04:40 okay. 23:04:44 4 then? 23:04:46 ehird: answer! 23:04:54 (i thinks.) 23:04:57 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:05:00 flexo: i dunno 23:05:06 thanks 23:05:07 :) 23:05:28 4 Swedes I think, me, firefly, behold..., and that person on who who isn't oklo or oerjan and who's name I temporarily forgot 23:05:37 olsner 23:05:41 ah thanks 23:05:42 that is it 23:05:50 ehird, how many from UK? 23:05:57 you and ais I know, but that is it or? 23:06:45 Asztal: 23:06:55 but thats it 23:08:32 hah 23:08:43 ehird, what about comex? 23:08:50 US. 23:08:53 ah 23:10:33 grr, there aren't enough good .cx registrars 23:11:01 ehird, may I ask why you want .cx? 23:11:09 it's complicated 23:11:23 ehird, oh? a shocksite with pics of yourself? 23:11:24 fine 23:11:26 :P 23:11:28 lol. 23:11:28 ~ 23:11:28 no. 23:11:39 specifically, I'm searching for the shortest domain I can get 23:11:49 ehird, a.cx? 23:11:52 t.cx 23:11:58 the other letters are taken. 23:12:07 ehird, and so for all other tlds? 23:12:15 i don't want to check all of them 23:12:19 ehird, ok 23:12:19 (yes, I could automate a whois...) 23:12:35 isn't one-letter domains usually more expensive than longer? 23:12:40 yes. 23:12:46 and .cx is expensive enough as-is 23:13:01 ehird, well, if you get t.cx it should be made into either a pastebin or an url shorterner 23:13:09 no :P 23:13:14 ehird, what!? 23:13:24 vjn.pb is quite short, and it's still not all that famous. 23:13:27 i don't like url shorteners, and pastebin URIs don't have to be short 23:13:30 ... 23:13:39 yeah, exactly. vjn.pb, that's it. 23:13:48 moar like vjn.fi/pb 23:14:07 no no we bought the tld pb for that. 23:14:13 Well 23:14:31 oklopol, what country is .pb? 23:14:34 none. 23:14:35 he's bullshitting 23:14:40 ah 23:15:02 :| 23:15:20 * oklopol leaves 23:15:21 what would be cooler is a number on some tld, that parses better 23:15:22 like 23:15:24 ~> 23:15:25 eh@t.cx 23:15:25 vs 23:15:27 eh@2.cc 23:25:08 ehird, hm, valid? 23:25:16 yeah. 23:25:45 ehird, and all used? 23:25:54 2.cc is available I think 23:26:00 ehird, also, why "eh", why not "e"? 23:26:05 its a bit awkward to type though 23:26:08 AnMaster: shrug 23:26:14 wait, no 23:26:16 2.cc is taken 23:34:22 darn, cc.tv isn't available 23:41:35 'night 23:41:45 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 2009-01-12: 00:06:59 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 00:11:43 uhm. 00:11:52 If anyone's still interested 00:12:05 I've written a preliminary spec 00:12:14 http://pastebin.com/m78cbca0b 00:12:43 But keep in mind that the whole thing will change if I decide to add another operator ^^ 00:13:34 BeholdMyGlory: you need more than a byte of memory. 00:13:58 ehird: no, since you store eveything in variables ^^ 00:15:08 ehird: which means variables wouldn't be a part of the memory... uhm. okay, that sounds a bit wierd, but still. you'll probably get the idea 00:15:18 there are only 26 variables, no? 00:15:20 not enough. 00:15:55 ehird: well, tough luck if you need more. I haven't written it to be easy to use 00:16:01 ehird: quite the opposite 00:16:01 haha 00:16:05 BeholdMyGlory: not tough luck 00:16:08 I mean it won't be turing complete 00:16:16 and thus you won't be able to write non-trivial programs in it 00:16:18 at all 00:16:21 simply impossible 00:17:09 ehird: well, remember that I'm still figuring out the details 00:17:24 ehird: will probably add a lot of other operators 00:17:27 you need either an infinite amount of memory, or infinitely large numbers 00:17:33 oh yea 00:17:33 if you have neither, bzzt, not turing complete 00:17:38 operators will solve that problem 00:17:45 -!- Corun has joined. 00:17:45 how 00:17:51 well 00:17:53 you know the 00:17:56 sarcasm operator? 00:18:04 ... 00:18:09 what 00:18:20 never. mind. 00:19:59 flexo: esplain :| 00:20:00 ehird: and will also think of a better way to manage variables. might think of a way to make an infinite numbers of variables 00:20:16 ehird: are you kidding me? 00:20:23 flexo: possibly? 00:20:33 are you drunk or something :| 00:20:33 ehird: that was probably a quite sarcastic remark to my "will probably add a lot of other operators" 00:20:36 nope 00:21:01 i think he's kidding me 00:21:14 what 00:21:55 ehird: "[01:17:38] operators will solve that problem" = sarcastic response to "[01:17:23] ehird: will probably add a lot of other operators" 00:22:05 i see/ 00:22:29 good for you 00:22:43 anyway, you need less operators, not momre 00:22:44 *more 00:23:33 why 00:23:33 but this doesn't really matter when it's not TC 00:23:36 not every language has to be a tarpi 00:23:36 t 00:23:38 flexo: more operators = harder to keep track of them all = harder to program in general = my goal ^^ 00:24:00 ehird: yea well, but you need something novel 00:24:09 feature creep is not novel 00:24:09 its his first esolang 00:24:11 give him a break 00:24:37 BeholdMyGlory: I will note that Malbolge is pretty much the epitome of that: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge 00:24:46 so? i've never written an esolang - for exactly thateason 00:24:50 *reason 00:24:55 also, i suspect he knows malbolge 00:24:56 whine whine whine 00:25:09 because the operator rotating thing likks taken from there 00:25:10 ;) 00:25:49 *looks like 00:26:33 no, the world needs another glorious esolang 00:26:34 flexo: i have stumbled across that page, but didn't read any of it. when looking at the examples, it seemed to be a bit too much to grasp 00:26:57 BeholdMyGlory: examples? 00:27:13 flexo: well, sample programs 00:27:22 there exist no sample programs 00:27:35 you might want to read the page ;) 00:27:40 um yes 00:27:41 there do 00:27:49 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge#Sample_programs 00:28:00 also guide: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge_programming 00:29:03 yes 00:29:11 i know that there exist programs 00:29:24 but that hardly counts as an "example" 00:29:34 because those examples make up like 25% of all existing programs 00:29:54 and were written years after malbolge was published 00:29:59 yes. 00:29:59 we know. 00:30:02 i know you do 00:30:18 i'm trying to tell what i mean by saying there exist no sample programs 00:30:30 as in 00:30:39 "here's a reference, oh, and now i'm going to show you how to write hello world" 00:31:58 hmmm 00:32:25 a more formalized version of "the incredible machine" 00:33:03 nah 00:33:16 either too undeterministic, or too boring 00:38:50 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye for now"). 00:40:10 -!- metazilla has quit ("- nbs-irc 2.37 - www.nbs-irc.net -"). 01:06:04 -!- puzzlet has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:06:05 -!- flexo has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:06:28 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:06:28 -!- flexo has joined. 01:21:11 * AnMaster dislikes that person using the name alang 01:24:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:19:47 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 02:33:19 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:16:45 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 03:20:07 -!- Corun has joined. 04:31:12 -!- kerlo has joined. 04:31:24 Hmm... 05:39:41 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 05:40:12 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 05:40:38 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Nick collision from services.). 05:40:51 -!- seveninchbread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 05:54:37 wee 05:54:38 :D 05:54:45 i learned how to do unification :D 05:54:56 With U? 05:55:09 what? 05:55:22 UNION SYMBOL 05:55:34 well i suppose after a fashion 05:55:39 what do you mean "with U" tho? 05:55:49 U is the union symbol. 05:55:55 yes 05:56:07 i said unification, not union 05:56:15 A U B = {x|x in A \/ x in B} 05:56:20 unification, like prolog does 05:56:28 I don't know what prolog does, nerd 05:56:34 it does unification! 05:56:48 unification is kind of like pattern matching, actually 05:56:55 its something you use when you do pattern matching 05:57:05 its the binding of variables in a pattern to the thing they match 05:57:22 but it works on complicated structures not just simple ones 06:06:12 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 06:06:49 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Nick collision from services.). 06:06:55 -!- seveninchbread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 06:15:50 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 06:16:29 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Nick collision from services.). 06:16:31 -!- seveninchbread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 06:30:16 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 06:30:33 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Nick collision from services.). 06:30:35 -!- seveninchbread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 06:40:33 -!- olsner has joined. 07:22:49 Heh, nice job advertisement on our board. "Do you enjoy coding? Do you think about the code you write? Do you favor some "exotic" programming language (such as Lisp, Lua, ML, Haskell or Erlang) over C++ and Java? If so, then you may be just the person to come write some Symbian C++ code for us." 07:24:05 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:26:35 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 07:34:52 lmfao 07:35:05 do you prefer other languages of C++? then you're probably the right person to code our C++! 07:35:43 on the one hand, its true. in that, knowing any of the above probably makes you a better C++ coder if you also know C++. 07:35:52 on the other hand, C++. 07:46:17 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:55 On the third hand, it's not just any C++, it's *Symbian* C++. And two wrongs don't make a right here. 08:04:08 fizzie is a mutant 08:04:59 all finns are 08:05:07 symbian c++? 08:05:09 they're really sort of cleaned-up zombies 08:05:45 Do finns have fins? 08:05:54 not after the cleanup 08:05:56 They do not tell what the project is all about, so it's hard to say if that's why preferring "exotic" languages is a good thing there. 08:08:21 Symbian C++ uses a strange preprocessor-macro-based "trap harness" exception system, because they don't support real C++ exceptions. And all objects whose construction might fail therefore need to use a really strange two-phase construction so that they properly end up in the custom "cleanup stack". 08:08:59 (Except that I think Symbian v9 or something added support for real C++ exceptions. Not that the API classes use those.) 08:21:19 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:22:20 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 08:29:02 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 08:35:39 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 08:50:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:22:51 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("e disasterous."). 09:24:44 and "thin" templates 09:30:21 Yes, that too. 09:30:24 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:31:06 I half-read a book on Symbian C++ once, glad I never had to use it :) 09:33:44 I've done a tiny bit of Symbian C++, and it... wasn't pleasant. The user interface side seemed especially painful, although I didn't really have to touch that. 09:50:11 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:57:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:21:52 -!- seveninchbread has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:24:04 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 10:48:16 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to p5[z. 10:48:35 -!- p5[z has changed nick to p5[zi. 10:48:58 -!- p5[zi has changed nick to p5[ziiz]. 11:06:04 -!- BeholdMyBot has joined. 11:13:40 hej 11:13:58 -!- BeholdMyBot has quit ("bye"). 11:13:59 hy 11:14:07 that was strange... 11:14:15 I wonder if BeholdMyBot is a bot 11:14:18 or a bot advertiser? 11:15:22 -!- FF|Java|2 has joined. 11:15:25 It's a bot 11:15:39 -!- FF|Java|2 has quit (Client Quit). 11:17:17 -!- BeholdMyBot has joined. 11:17:19 hejd 11:17:21 -!- BeholdMyBot has quit (Client Quit). 11:18:22 * ais523 wonders if BeholdMyBot interprets any esolangs yet 11:22:52 -!- jix has joined. 12:16:17 -!- ais523 has quit ("rebooting"). 12:20:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:44:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:44:21 -!- comexk has joined. 12:46:59 -!- olsner has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:46:59 -!- comex has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:00:03 -!- olsner has joined. 13:06:51 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:55:45 -!- Corun has joined. 14:00:57 fungot: do you think i should watch another ep? 14:00:57 oklopol: lets see, there are some 14:01:06 fungot: well yes, there are 14:01:07 oklopol: ( gravity influences pretty much everything, though. 14:01:11 i guess. 14:01:16 so maybe i'll ^bool? 14:01:18 ^bool 14:01:18 No. 14:01:23 :| 14:01:31 sure about that? 14:01:33 ^bool 14:01:33 No. 14:01:42 well then i'll ask again 14:01:44 ^bool 14:01:44 Yes. 14:01:50 so k, i'll watch 14:01:55 glad i only needed to ask twice. 14:06:27 I'm not sure this ^bool thing is useful if you keep retrying until you get the answer you want. 14:07:11 STOP TELLING ME HOW TO LIVE MY LIFE 14:12:08 You will only get the benefits (happiness, money, love, that sort of stuff) if you unquestionably obey fungot. 14:12:09 fizzie: right, and it would start being scary otherwise.... so i agree with yome, though he's a friend, i do 14:13:06 Unquestioningly, I mean. 14:13:35 fungot: what should i code on now? 14:13:35 jix: the acme clone? :o) ( fnord 14:13:50 fungot: what's the acme clone? 14:13:50 jix: http://www.bloodandcoffee.net/ campbell/ txt/ cps-tutorial.log it gets to the bottom. 14:16:21 Acme is the Plan 9 editor/development-environment/thing. 14:17:23 ah 14:17:27 but no i will not code on that 14:18:48 Well, then you won't be happy and successful. It's as simple as that. (Disclaimer: fungot might also be wrong, though I don't see how that would be possible.) 14:18:48 fizzie: is there any docs about any bytecode system used by any scheme? i'm using it for my needs. 14:19:50 I guess it all depends on whether cfunge's ? instruction always chooses correctly. 14:20:41 how is it implemented 14:24:07 Seems to be the two lowest bits out of random(), seeded by gettimeofday tv_usec member. Or at least that's what it looked like. 14:31:09 hmmm seeded on app start or with every call? 14:31:36 if it were the lower two bits of rand and not random it would be pretty predictable IIRC 14:32:03 Uh, app start, of course. 14:32:28 well some people want to be "extra sure" and seed before every rand call 14:32:49 that combined with the time as source can make it pretty much unrandom ^^ 14:33:09 And as far as I know glibc's rand()/srand() just use random()/srandom() initially. But all C books and other sources warn about rand's lowest bits, so I'm sure there have been crappy rand(3) implementations. 14:34:12 hmm at least the mac os x manpage of random warns about rand usage..... the rand manpage doesn't -_- 14:34:34 Heh, that's a clever trick. 14:35:28 oh wait it kind of warns about it 14:35:41 rand, rand_r, srand, sranddev -- bad random number generator 14:35:43 in the title 14:36:13 The rand(3) man page on this Debian system says: "However, on older rand() implementations, and on current implementations on different systems, the lower-order bits are much less random than the higher-order bits. Do not use this function in applications intended to be portable when good randomness is needed. (Use random(3) instead.)" 14:37:11 SunOS title is more politically-correct: "rand, srand, rand_r - simple random-number generator" 14:47:13 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:48:07 okay 14:48:09 munich rocks 14:49:03 even the people who come to read off the radiator thingies (know what i mean?) offer you IT work 14:49:06 :) 14:54:20 hmm apple sits in munich too right? 14:54:34 apple in germany is that 14:57:29 yep 15:29:49 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:38:03 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:43:16 -!- Corun has joined. 15:53:58 :/ that's bad 15:54:06 what? 15:54:15 that apple germany is in munich 15:54:27 o.o 15:54:29 how so? 15:55:11 i live in bremen 15:55:32 hehe 15:55:51 i suggest we skip the "your city sucks" part :) 15:56:09 and some apple guy said i could/should do an internship there when i study 15:56:53 i just moved to munich from near hanover / gttingen / braunschweig 15:57:11 flexo: didn't got your last msg because of special chars and being unable to configure macirssi 15:57:22 i just moved to munich from near hanover / goettingen / braunschweig 15:57:40 ah 15:58:06 oberharz.. clausthal-zellerfeld actually 15:58:11 hmm i'm finishing school this year and i planned to study here in bremen too 15:58:20 but bremen sucks :) 15:58:31 i don't think so ^^ 15:59:04 the munich city center is really beautiful 15:59:32 i know 15:59:58 but still it wouldn't be the number 1 place i want to live 16:00:11 (granted, there are several bavarian beautiful cities) 16:00:35 yea well. the rents are somewhat expensive hehe 16:00:37 actually i don't know what place that would be but for now bremen seems best for me... but that can change over time 16:01:36 paying 575 eur with heating included for 38,5 m^2 x.x 16:02:11 (and given the district this is rather cheap..) 16:02:18 hmm since i never had to rent a flat yet i have no idea how expensive that is usually or here 16:02:31 in bremen? maybe the half :) 16:03:01 i think "half of it" would be more correct ;) 16:03:29 so yea, apple is here. not the reason i moved here though heh 16:03:43 have been doing flight- and maintaince-simulators for eurocopter and eads for the last year 16:03:49 ah 16:04:22 commuting between home and munich twice a week.. 16:04:35 i have been doing work on nautics-simulators (dunno if that is translated correctly) :) 16:04:45 which means getting up at 4am on monday to start working at 10:30 16:04:50 ouch 16:04:54 doing 10 hour days the rest of the week 16:05:07 because of going back on friday at 12:00 16:05:13 that's hard.... 16:05:37 .. yea. now i moved :) 16:06:06 but what i did was just 3d graphics nothing specific to simulation 16:06:11 the work is fun 16:06:41 next project will be integrating the control hardware from one flight-simulator with the simulation from another 16:06:45 which means integration testing. fun :) 16:07:15 but it's one of the reasons i want to stay in bremen... i can work there basically whanever i want and get payed pretty good if i compare it to what others in my school do to earn some money ;) 16:08:04 well 16:08:18 you know what everyone says... there is no way around the south of germany in the IT sector.. ;) 16:09:06 as i just told you. even the "heizungsableser" are desperately searching for qualified employees ;) 16:09:22 well i don't want to work for a heizungsableser ^^ 16:09:24 :P 16:09:37 (even if it's IT work) 16:09:37 seriously though 16:09:42 there's posters everywhere 16:10:10 17:02 < jix> well i don't want to work for a heizungsableser ^^ 16:10:57 ^ ofcourse not as a... 16:11:11 well 16:11:14 don't know the right term 16:11:17 flexo: i got it that way (hence i added (even if it's IT work)) 16:11:24 no 16:11:25 i mean 16:11:42 i mean not as an employee ofcourse 16:12:03 i've been working as a freelancer for the past two years 16:12:14 and i seriously don't care what customers do for their living :) 16:12:32 well but from what i can imagine the IT work a heizungsableser-company needs isn't that interesting 16:12:33 if they've got an interesting project to work on - we'll see 16:12:38 that was my point 16:12:40 nah 16:12:44 not for the company 16:13:27 he's working as a freelancer too 16:14:01 this was not related to "heizungsablesen" in any way 16:14:08 ah now i got it ^^ 16:14:12 except the fact that he seems to earn a few bucks by doing it 16:15:04 really got to get back into freelancing 16:15:15 for obvious reasons i didn't have much time last year.. 16:15:34 but since it will take some years till i finish university and i'm not even sure in what exact direction i will go i think it would be bad to move to southern germany just because everyone sais there is no way around southern germany for IT work 16:15:58 the weather is better too 16:16:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:16:06 ^^ 16:16:12 i'm fine with the weather here 16:16:13 there are some language issues though 16:16:37 uhm 16:16:39 no you are not. 16:16:40 :) 16:16:54 i am 16:16:55 i've often been in bremen 16:16:59 it's not as worse as the oberharz 16:17:09 but it's not something to be fine with :) 16:17:12 -!- BeholdMyBot has joined. 16:17:19 hey everybody 16:17:24 check my bot! 16:17:29 (this is my bot) 16:17:33 flexo: what does anoy you about the weather in bremen? 16:17:33 now... 16:17:38 ^bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+. 16:17:38 Hello World! 16:17:39 Interpreting >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+. 16:17:39 Hello World! 16:17:49 jix: it's cold, rainy, gray - just as all nothern germany 16:17:49 uhm 16:17:56 *northern 16:18:11 okay. seems i'm not the first one who made a bf-interpreting bot 16:18:18 that's dissapointing 16:18:20 :( 16:18:26 it's not too hot here i like that 16:18:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has left (?). 16:18:55 -!- BeholdMyBot has left (?). 16:19:04 it's not "hot" in the south either. just very comfortable. 16:19:05 and green 16:19:07 sunny 16:19:11 well 16:19:12 not now 16:19:14 but it will be# 16:19:15 :) 16:19:16 well when i was in munich the last time it was way too hot 16:20:37 but i think this "where to live" discussion is going nowhere and is quite redundand 16:20:45 ^^ 16:21:15 yea 16:21:23 going nowhere because you fail to accept the truth :) 16:39:42 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:40:49 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)). 16:40:50 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 16:41:50 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:50:03 16:18 okay. seems i'm not the first one who made a bf-interpreting bot 16:50:03 16:18 that's dissapointing 16:50:07 So virginly innocent. 16:50:11 fungot is written in befunge by the way. 16:50:11 ehird: when people poke me at night, dressed completely in white and all sorts of odd things, so it was 2002 16:50:20 http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 16:50:20 ehird: and er, " singularity"? so it's serious? 16:57:25 lol 16:59:57 -!- p5[ziiz] has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:06:31 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:11:36 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:12:10 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:17:47 ehird, hi 17:17:54 has ais been on today? 17:17:58 yes. 17:18:01 in ##nomic. 17:18:05 11am 17:18:05 ah 17:18:10 odd he wasn't in here today? 17:18:15 why is that odd? 17:18:28 he usually is on mondays 17:18:31 depends what you mean by "today" 17:18:45 03:18:22 * ais523 wonders if BeholdMyBot interprets any esolangs yet 17:18:54 hm ok 17:19:03 ah now I see it 17:30:50 i would like to warn people against visiting Trondheim in January. 17:31:37 unless you are an american billionaire, in which case i would like to invite you to come here, break some bones, and sue the bejeezus out of our snow cleaning services. 17:33:01 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 17:37:09 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 17:37:20 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:37:27 hi oerjan 17:38:37 O_o was that automatic? 17:38:42 no 17:39:36 well hi then 17:40:52 btw, was this the channel where you were discussing volatile and signals the other day? 17:40:59 yes 17:41:09 yesterday 17:41:39 did you get around to discussing sig_atomic_t? if not I believe someone may have drawn incorrect conclusions 17:42:02 nope 17:45:53 okay, as I suspected... I won't waste time explaining it though since it's all described elsewhere anyway 17:55:11 -!- asiekierk has joined. 17:55:19 I'm uploading another sock puppet movie 17:55:23 This time, no high-pitched voices 17:55:25 and some POINT 17:55:38 The points are: ".", ".", "." and ".". 17:56:01 but under what topology? 17:57:19 ...topology? 17:57:22 . . . 17:57:37 * oerjan cackles evilly 17:57:51 Anyway, it's 23MB 17:58:02 ((i hope YouTube WILL make it HQ this time)) 17:58:16 it will be my pleasure not to watch it 17:58:31 man 17:58:37 and i wasted 1 hour of my life to do that :( 17:58:41 NEWS @ SOCK 17:58:51 NEWS @ SOCK | ehird doesn't want to watch my videos! 17:59:04 ehird: hey don't talk like that! you'll force me to watch it just out of pity :( 17:59:17 :D 18:00:31 but under what topology? <-- heh 18:00:41 yay 18:01:03 oerjan, I *think* I understood it, I know a bit of basic topology. 18:01:05 anywhere else that would have been too obscure for _anyone_ to get it :) 18:01:11 i got it 18:01:12 :\ 18:01:13 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Life without danger is a waste of oxygen"). 18:02:59 asiekierk: in mathematics, nearly every "set of points" comes with a mathematical structure called a topology. 18:06:48 -!- Mony has joined. 18:10:09 oerjan, also a topologist can save on expenses for coffee breaks in a unusual way. :) 18:11:03 er... 18:11:16 oerjan, I'm quite sure this joke is old 18:11:17 don't try and understand it, I think it would kill you 18:11:29 ehird: so you've heard it? 18:11:35 nope 18:11:35 ehird, I didn't make it up 18:11:36 but AnMaster's telling it 18:11:49 you mean he'll mess it up somehow? 18:11:59 no, but if he thinks it's funny, it's probably _awful_ 18:12:00 so the point disappears... 18:12:06 groan 18:12:10 haha 18:12:14 oerjan, that one was good 18:12:17 see? 18:12:22 * AnMaster drinks a cup of coffee and then eats the cup as a doughnut. 18:12:22 my logic is infallable 18:12:29 also, completely unintended until i clicked return 18:12:45 ah 18:13:18 i was fearing a klein bottle 18:13:42 * oerjan traps AnMaster in one 18:13:45 ehird, was it that bad? I'm sure there was a flaw in the logic. (Or as we can say in Swedish, a hole in the argument!) 18:13:56 *groan* 18:14:08 oerjan, yes that one was much worse 18:14:26 which for puns means better 18:14:29 One day I'll buy one of those Acme-brand glass Klein bottles. They come with a calibrated decal showing the volume, and everything: http://www.kleinbottle.com/images/classicbigcal1.jpg 18:14:33 oerjan, heh 18:15:11 fizzie, that is a fake one 18:15:24 but is it the inside or outside volume? 18:15:41 oerjan, heh 18:15:43 18:15 fizzie, that is a fake one 18:15:44 no fucking shit 18:15:52 wanna show me a real klein bottle? 18:16:02 ehird, alas, I can't 18:16:34 first we need to invent wormholes. then it will be a simple matter. 18:17:37 possibly also strange matter 18:18:25 oerjan, couldn't you do it if you could access a 4th dimension (not time) 18:18:42 yes 18:25:53 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-mqlXEv31k 18:28:53 * oerjan wonders if you could construct a functional, sweet edible coffee cup 18:31:40 * ehird writes a script to print out all unused 4-character-total domain names registratable by foreigners 18:32:18 oh.no 18:32:27 (not actually unregistered) 18:32:47 that is 5 characters total 18:33:03 oh 18:33:12 i know one so far: t.cx is available 18:33:17 but I can't find a registrar that will accept it 18:33:50 No one will click on a .cx link, ehird 18:34:01 sure they will, there's plenty of non-goatse .cxs about nowadays 18:34:16 ehird: some domains have a policy to only accept domain names with a specific length 18:34:17 hm a.com seems not to exist 18:34:22 jix: yes 18:34:27 i don't know if it's global nowadays though 18:34:31 like for .de it has to bee at least 3 chars afaik... only big companies seem to get an exception... 18:34:31 are you sure single letter domains are legal? 18:34:35 oerjan: yes 18:34:40 like db.de or o2.de 18:34:44 [a-z].cc are registered 18:34:46 and v.cx is too 18:34:50 (or maybe they dropped that limitation) 18:34:53 well, all letters .cx apart from t are registered 18:34:54 :-P 18:35:04 a-z.cc only display their namse with varying background colours 18:35:05 oddly 18:35:26 hm... 18:35:48 y.fr does not exist, disappointing 18:35:52 note: this search of all 3-char domains that can be registered by foreigners will take like 500 years 18:36:01 y.es isn't registered :( 18:36:18 ehird: why will it take that long? 18:36:42 jix: because there's a fucking lot of domains to search through :^) 18:36:49 a.cc has a webpage at least 18:36:54 oerjan: yes, a-z.cc do 18:36:57 18:35 a-z.cc only display their namse with varying background colours 18:36:57 18:35 oddly 18:37:06 oh 18:37:06 jix: there are 87 cctlds that are registerable by foreigners 18:37:12 and i have to check a-z, 0-9 on all of them 18:37:20 I could filter for doesn't-require-predefined-subdomain 18:37:22 like .co.uk etc 18:37:22 but 18:37:24 lazy 18:37:39 oh by foreigners, i guess that excludes .no 18:37:51 i think you need a registered norwegian company 18:37:54 you can't register .no outside of norway, it seems 18:38:00 you can with .se though 18:38:03 nor .fi 18:38:08 %w(ac ag am as at be bi bo br bs cc cd cg ch ci ck cn cx dj dk ec es fj fm gd gl gr gs hk hm hn il im in io ir is la li ls lv md mn mp ms mu mw mx na nf nl nr nu ph pk pl pn pr ps pt ro rs ru sb sc se sh sm sr st sy tc tg th tj tk tl tm to tt tv tw ug us vc vg za) 18:38:53 ehird, you could automate the whois requests 18:38:59 no shit, that's what I'm doing 18:39:02 except you don't need to whois 18:39:05 just try a dns lookup 18:39:10 ah true 18:39:23 ie getaddrbyhost 18:39:27 ehird, some may go to "this domain isn't registered yet" 18:39:31 yes 18:39:36 but I wouldn't associate with such uncouth tlds anyway 18:39:52 ehird, well I have seen it for .com and what not 18:40:04 oh, those are just squatters. 18:40:15 they'd want me to pay like £500 upwards 18:40:16 doesn't mean squat 18:40:28 you mean some registerer(sp?) reserve a domain? 18:40:55 registrars 18:40:56 and no 18:40:59 all squatters do. 18:41:05 they register valuable-looking domains 18:41:10 and sell them at a batshit insane premium 18:41:13 --> $$$$ 18:45:14 indeed 18:45:26 % ruby one-char-domains.rb | tee one-char-domains.txt 18:45:35 hmm, that failed. 18:46:13 * ehird just runs it in a terminal 18:46:47 wtf 18:46:50 it fails when you pipe it 18:46:54 I wonder why... 18:46:54 ehird: dns isn't enough i think 18:47:02 jix: why not? 18:47:10 if you can look it up to an IP, it's registered 18:47:12 what if i register a domain and don't set up dns? 18:47:12 if not, it's not 18:47:25 well, okay, but that's gotta be very rare 18:49:12 jix: how would you do it, then? 18:49:15 whois is amazingly slow. 18:50:40 * ehird drops .ag from script due to lagging up the whole thing 18:51:51 ehird: just send out the whois requests in parallel 18:52:01 jix: and get blocked from the servers? nothx 18:52:07 they block that? 18:52:12 hmm then first do dns in parallel 18:52:22 and do whois for those who don't answer 18:52:30 dns in parallel should be no problem at all 18:52:31 nothing to do with parallel, something's going infinite 18:52:32 i.e. 18:52:35 the lookup never terminates 18:52:40 i'm trying to figure out why the fuck 18:52:48 no dns server 18:52:55 but registered maybe? 18:52:56 except I can resolve names frmo the server 18:52:59 hmmm 18:53:01 a.ag takes infinite amount of time to resolve 18:53:06 bmw.ag loads immediately 18:53:24 a.ag times out here... 18:53:56 wonder how I could set the timeout using ruby's Resolv::DNS. 18:54:07 ehird: the nameserver for a.ag isn't online 18:54:13 ah. 18:54:16 dammit 18:54:23 so I can't whois, I can't dns. 18:55:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:55:48 * ehird looks at net-dns 19:00:43 -!- Badger has quit ("leaving"). 19:05:19 The "Shut Up Net::DNS I Know The Lookups Will Fail" maneuver: 19:05:20 dns.instance_eval { @logger = Logger.new(File.open("/dev/null")) } 19:06:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:08:05 Hmm, that fails. 19:08:08 Need a "w" in there. 19:10:03 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:10:08 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 19:10:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:12:15 hmm have a working script now 19:12:27 me? 19:12:28 Yes. 19:12:34 It's 22 lines. 19:12:47 http://pastie.org/private/ertajest839sfbb2vei1yw 19:13:06 And also intolerably slow , but there you go. 19:13:33 missed an I there 19:13:36 mine is pretty fast 19:13:40 Ah. 19:13:43 Show it :) 19:15:39 still testing 19:15:46 haven't done a complete run yet 19:16:02 Of course, even if I find one of these domains that is nice and available and registerable, it'll cost like £100/year 19:16:04 or more 19:17:05 took me 53.727secs to find 1460 free domains 19:17:23 1460? Is that using the same cctld set as mine? 19:17:38 yeah 19:17:55 neat. show your script? :) 19:17:58 why did the tld cross the road? 19:18:05 to get to the other sied 19:18:06 *side 19:18:16 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 19:18:18 no to get to the other SITE XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 19:18:18 ehird: i want to try how fast i can get it first ;) 19:18:19 ... 19:18:28 no wait that didn't make sense. 19:18:36 jix: psht, 53 seconds is faster than the 10+ minutes I got :( 19:18:59 err. isn't the bottleneck kinda not in the script if you're doing something like that? 19:19:13 yes 19:19:32 hmm. 19:19:48 well i guess you could optimize the average running time by a few microseconds still. 19:20:42 jix: besides, how fast does a program like that need to be? 19:20:47 i mean, vs actually being able to read it 19:20:53 oklopol: i'm trying how many worker threads can run in parallel 19:21:08 that's machine-specific. 19:21:19 well might be the dns server drops request at some point... 19:21:27 unlikely. 19:21:38 like with 100 worker threads i seem to lose some 19:22:07 -!- Corun has joined. 19:22:17 you're mad. 19:22:53 wouldn't one thread per tld be more reasonable... 19:23:17 oerjan: well i use a queue for all tlds 19:23:23 oerjan: uhm for all domains 19:23:25 then they all are contacting different servers 19:23:37 oerjan: you send out the requests to the same server anyway 19:23:46 oh whois? 19:23:47 and then your dns server looks into its cache and then reaches for other servers 19:23:54 how about just giving the script while you mess around with that :D 19:23:56 that's how dns works 19:24:22 surely there is nothing preventing you from contacting the tld servers directly 19:24:26 http://rafb.net/p/awMQ2387.html 19:24:42 oerjan: except making the code more complex 19:24:44 after using your local dns server once to get their names 19:24:54 ('a'..'z').each do |letter| 19:24:55 phail 19:25:07 ? 19:25:12 it's a-z+0-9 :P 19:25:14 ah 19:25:21 which should slow things down quite a bit... 19:25:28 a bit 19:25:54 outputter = Thread.new do 19:25:55 while line = output.pop 19:25:56 36/26 ~ 1.385 19:25:56 puts line 19:25:58 STDOUT.flush 19:26:00 end 19:26:02 end 19:26:04 that will quit on you randomly 19:26:06 if output ever gets empty while that ticks 19:26:15 ehird: output.pop blocks 19:26:24 oh, it's a queue 19:26:24 okay 19:26:32 but the while is indeed a bit stupid 19:26:47 why not, umm 19:26:50 just STDOUT.puts in the threads 19:26:53 because i never put nil in there 19:27:06 ehird: two threads printing at the same time 19:27:11 happened without that 19:27:11 big deal? 19:27:23 umm, presumably stdout is line-buffered 19:27:32 ehird: well you get two lines and then two newlines 19:27:36 hm 19:27:36 instead of line, newline, line, newline 19:27:45 i could have used a mutex for output tho.... ^^ 19:28:36 thinking of that i'll just do that 19:30:25 and it seems i introduced a bug in the last version without testing 19:30:38 nameing two variables the same 19:31:29 IO.popen("host -W #{timeout} #{domain} &> /dev/stdout","r") do |pipe| 19:31:33 that's gotta be a bottleneck 19:31:52 starting a process vs waiting for a dns replay? 19:32:16 i doubt that 19:35:14 updated version with 10 workers: 19:35:15 real2m49.290s 19:35:15 user0m10.439s 19:35:15 sys0m21.829s 19:35:20 1998 domains.txt 19:35:24 well, that's worse then isn't it 19:35:55 worse than what? 19:36:07 last time 19:36:11 when it took 50sec 19:36:15 well i used 30 workers there 19:36:16 oh, is this with 0-9 added? 19:36:18 yeah 19:36:27 and i only used 10 to not flood the dns server 19:36:52 http://rafb.net/p/q6SwbW77.html << the code 19:38:17 looks good. I'll run it in a bit. wanna paste domains.txt? :) 19:38:32 the hard part is finding the ones you can actually register ofc 19:39:43 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 19:39:54 http://rafb.net/p/ji5zS758.html << sorted domain list 19:40:41 neat 19:41:52 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 19:44:41 http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/eng/989464357.html 19:44:43 agile! 19:45:33 [OPTIONAL] 19:45:34 The website will contain a section called winners section; here customers can go with the attempt of winning points. This will be a game of winning and losing points. Customers will be prone to lose points instead of winning. 19:45:37 [END OF OPTIONAL] 19:45:57 -!- Mony has quit ("quit"). 19:53:48 hmm whois says whether the domain is invalid or free to buy 19:54:20 but not in a standard format. 19:54:21 and not alway 19:54:22 s 19:54:26 hmmm 19:54:46 but having it reduced to about 2000 domains whois might even work 19:55:00 maybe 19:55:07 .cx doesnt seem to allow single-char names 19:55:11 so you can eliminate them all 19:55:26 also: screenscrape registrars to omit domains that are _really_ expensive ;-) 20:00:25 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:01:16 http://www.screamingduck.com/Cruft/JmpAbuse.c 20:02:06 -!- asiekierk has quit. 20:07:47 -!- Zetro has joined. 20:21:45 -!- Corun has joined. 20:22:56 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 20:39:15 -!- MigoMipo has changed nick to MigoMipoSoftware. 20:40:29 -!- MigoMipoSoftware has changed nick to JohnSucks. 20:40:41 -!- JohnSucks has changed nick to JohnIsALoser. 20:43:36 -!- JohnIsALoser has changed nick to Peugeot205GTi. 20:51:32 -!- Zetro_ has joined. 20:51:46 -!- Zetro has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:55:06 -!- Peugeot205GTi has changed nick to MigoMipo. 20:55:22 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:01:45 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:07:21 -!- Zetro_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:09:51 -!- Zetro_ has joined. 21:10:00 -!- Zetro_ has changed nick to Zetro. 21:17:50 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Never put off till tomorrow, what you can do the day after tomorrow"). 21:17:51 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 21:21:24 -!- Zetro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:21:32 -!- seveninchbread has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:37:46 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 21:47:16 i'm beginning to understand the bass guitar fretboard! 21:47:24 O O OO 21:47:25 O O OO 21:47:27 O OO O 21:47:29 O OO O 21:47:47 that's the nicest position. 21:48:13 there's a high shape and a low shape, and the two have a common middle part. 21:48:20 time is four corner. 21:48:37 instead of memorizing four-fret shapes, such as 21:48:42 O OO 21:48:43 OO O 21:48:44 O O 21:48:55 (that's a high shape, by the way) 21:49:10 it makes more sense to memorize the low-high pair 21:49:18 because they share the middle part anyway 21:49:36 O O OO 21:49:37 O OO O 21:49:42 O OO O 21:50:01 the high shape can be seen on the right. 21:50:48 (it's, uh, the E shape) 21:52:18 huh 21:52:20 it's only 2-fret movement to switch from low to high or from high to low. 21:52:31 i just remember strings rise in fourths. 21:53:19 when actually playing, you don't have time to calculate what note is where 21:53:31 you need to know the shapes by heart 21:53:36 lament, I fail at reading the notation you used 21:53:55 I played guitar, though not bass guitar 21:54:02 lament: well i guess if you're doing a sweet sweep or something. 21:54:24 (that is of course acoustic guitar) 21:54:29 AnMaster: they're just nets, people normally draw them vertically but i draw them horizontally here 21:54:37 with fret marks, 21:55:03 O| | O| | O| O| 21:55:12 O| | O| O| | O| 21:55:13 O| | O| O| | O| 21:55:15 lament, can you show me a photo of holding that first one, since I fail to understand where you got your 6th finger from 21:55:30 :) 21:55:35 (yes I obviously fail at understanding the notation) 21:55:53 AnMaster: the fretboard is horizontal in that pic. 21:55:59 each chat line is a string. 21:56:02 hm 21:56:05 maybe, hm ok 21:56:14 it's just like you see the fretboard if you look at it while playing. 21:56:22 lament, how would you hold it with those two low O? 21:56:25 the thumb? 21:56:50 when playing, you're restricted to a single position 21:56:55 four frets\ 21:56:59 five, if you extend a finger 21:57:13 like, this is a major scale 21:57:14 o oo 21:57:16 oo o 21:57:17 o o 21:57:27 major scale, one octave in a single position 21:57:31 lament, also, how many strings does a "bass guitar" have? You have shown 3 and 4 before 21:57:48 bass guitar has four strings: E A D G 21:57:51 ah 21:57:53 same as four bass strings on a guitar 21:58:00 so all this stuff applies to that as well 21:58:15 * AnMaster has only played classical 6-stringed acoustic guitar 21:58:19 right 21:58:26 do you know CAGED? 21:58:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:58:58 lament, I know the word, it means in a cage, shouting (upper case) 21:59:04 but I assume that isn't what you mean 21:59:06 ok, so you don't 21:59:20 there're five basic chords 21:59:22 on a guitar 21:59:28 C, A, G, E and D 21:59:45 ah right, I never heard that name for them 21:59:47 other chords are formed from those 21:59:54 moved to a different fret and/or altered 22:00:16 each chord corresponds to a scale 22:00:17 lament, also it was around 5 years I played played guitar, I take piano lessons nowdays 22:00:20 each chord shape, i mean 22:00:27 cool, what do you play? 22:00:34 s/played played/last played/ 22:00:41 lament, piano I said... 22:00:45 yes but what? 22:01:06 um... non-electrical piano? 22:01:17 what pieces? 22:01:17 or what do you mean? 22:01:19 aha 22:01:22 who's on first? 22:01:24 right, why didn't you say that ;P 22:01:31 oerjan, indeed! 22:01:53 AnMaster: what else could he have meant 22:01:59 lament, well, currently I have a Swedish traditional xmas song 22:02:21 what is it called? 22:02:23 "O Helga Natt" 22:02:23 lament, the first lesson after xmas is on Thursday 22:02:36 Himlen i min famn 22:02:40 darn 22:02:46 oerjan, good guess though 22:02:52 cool 22:03:05 AnMaster: cool. 22:03:10 anyway busy now, *goes back reading postgre sql manual* 22:03:11 piano is nice. 22:03:57 lament, well there are two downsides (for non-electrical ones): 1) heavy 2) uses a lot of space 22:04:08 even electric ones, yeah 22:04:18 AnMaster: but they sound so much better 22:04:19 * oerjan somehow thought Himlen i min famn was written by Carola ;D 22:04:25 at home I have an electrical one, I would never be able to get a non-electrical one up the stairs 22:04:38 nor would I have space 22:04:41 BeholdMyGlory, agreed 22:04:50 a grand piano is a lot nicer to play on 22:05:00 AnMaster: I actually play the piano as well... 22:05:04 oerjan, errm no 22:05:11 oerjan, maybe she sang it or such? 22:05:19 well obviously :) 22:05:29 oerjan, the music sheet says "Trad" 22:05:51 anyway 22:06:02 * AnMaster tries to resume reading postgresql manual 22:06:15 she _is_ the first google hit for it :D 22:08:30 oerjan, that doesn't mean a lot. For example I was looking for "I Dreamt That I Dwelt in Marble Halls" recently, don't remember why. And Enya is the first hit for it. But it is actually from the 1843 opera "The Bohemian Girl" if you look a bit further down. 22:08:52 hah, i was right! 22:09:01 http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himlen_i_min_famn 22:09:28 oerjan, odd that it says "traditional" then on the sheet of music. 22:09:34 and there are no citations there 22:09:39 well if you believe swedish wikipedia 22:09:48 Well I don't :P 22:09:50 oerjan, [citations needed] 22:09:59 well it is strange that _most_ of the google hits for the first two pages mention her 22:10:02 and the sheet of music could be wrong, who knows 22:10:17 the melody could be older 22:10:50 Yey, my JS snake has 7th hit on swedish google for pages from the whole web for "Javascript snake" :D 22:10:52 it's not exactly unheard of for old melodies to get new christian texts 22:12:03 oerjan, true, also it says the book was printed in 1993. And sv wikipedia claims it to be from 1999. This makes the whole thing quite a lot more dubious 22:12:13 aha 22:12:22 oerjan, ? 22:12:32 your sheet music book? 22:13:48 FireFly: link? 22:14:03 http://www.google.com/search?hl=sv&client=opera&rls=en&hs=vCV&q=javascript+snake+&btnG=S%C3%B6k&lr= 22:14:05 oerjan, well a photocopy of one, with the word "Copyright 1994 Bonniers" and "Kopiering förbjuden" at the bottom of the page. The actual book is from/at the music school. 22:14:11 err 1993 22:14:12 typed 22:14:15 > FireFly.nu - Javascript-Snake 22:14:16 typoed* 22:14:40 crazy swedes 22:14:44 ehird, ? 22:14:49 "a photocopy" "Kopiering förbjuden" 22:14:50 :D 22:14:53 Swedes. They are crazy 22:15:00 FireFly, yes indeed 22:15:03 ehird: why? -.- 22:15:10 hm there's another link claiming she is the composer (but not the lyrics writer) 22:15:15 BeholdMyGlory: because they are 22:15:17 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:15:21 ehird: got proof? 22:15:29 oh wait that's a norwegian text translation 22:15:34 BeholdMyGlory: yes: everyone in here. 22:15:41 :< 22:15:57 FireFly, interesting if you referse 180 degrees it looks backwards but continues forwards 22:15:58 sheesh do you realise where you are 22:15:59 is that intended? 22:16:06 you're crazy by definition 22:16:08 I know, and no, it isn't :P 22:16:29 But I havn't done anything to try to fix it 22:16:48 AnMaster: pianos are the best because you play them sitting down 22:16:57 FireFly, why not use "Spel slut" instead of "Game over"? 22:17:05 because swedes are crazy 22:17:09 or rather "Spelet är slut" 22:17:15 * oerjan adds -carola to the google search 22:17:18 lament, ah yes good point 22:17:23 spell slut :DD 22:17:25 lament, very good point even 22:17:32 Because of ^ 22:17:32 -!- BeholdMyBot has joined. 22:17:32 Hi, BeholdMyBot! 22:17:43 Hi, lament! 22:17:44 Not very good when you link it in english channels :D 22:17:54 ^vote Are swedes crazy? 22:17:55 No, but I prefer the english term, feels more.. correct 22:17:55 Vote cast by BeholdMyGlory: Are swedes crazy? 22:17:55 BeholdMyBot, narcissism? 22:18:02 hm 22:18:02 ^no 22:18:03 Yes: 0, No: 1. 22:18:07 ^no 22:18:07 Yes: 0, No: 2. 22:18:08 (everyone type "^no") 22:18:10 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 22:18:10 :D 22:18:12 ^no 22:18:13 Yes: 0, No: 3. 22:18:13 ^yes 22:18:14 Yes: 1, No: 3. 22:18:23 ^die 22:18:35 ehird, that counts as abstain? 22:18:37 BeholdMyGlory: "Vote cast by BeholdMyGlory" means you have voted. 22:18:37 ^vote do I suck? 22:18:38 Vote already in progress. 22:18:44 this is not helping... 22:18:47 ^endvote 22:18:50 ^die 22:18:50 lament: oh. that's right 22:18:54 Vote ended. 22:18:55 No leads yes with 3>1. 22:18:59 lament: i'll have to fix that 22:19:00 ^burninafireypitofhell 22:19:03 ^vote do I suck 22:19:04 Vote cast by ehird: do I suck 22:19:04 hey i didn't get to vote :( 22:19:06 ^yes 22:19:06 Yes: 1, No: 0. 22:19:09 ^yes 22:19:10 ehird has already voted. 22:19:13 -!- ehird has changed nick to notehird. 22:19:15 ^yes 22:19:15 notehird has already voted. 22:19:18 :D 22:19:19 -!- notehird has changed nick to ehird. 22:19:24 ehird: part, rejoin 22:19:27 ^yes 22:19:27 -!- ehird has left (?). 22:19:27 Yes: 2, No: 0. 22:19:29 -!- ehird has joined. 22:19:29 Hi, ehird! 22:19:32 ^yes 22:19:32 ehird has already voted. 22:19:32 ^yes 22:19:33 Yes: 3, No: 0. 22:19:35 -!- ehird has left (?). 22:19:43 -!- notehird has joined. 22:19:43 Hi, notehird! 22:19:45 ^yes 22:19:45 notehird has already voted. 22:19:49 hm 22:19:49 die, bitch 22:19:52 -!- notehird has changed nick to ehird. 22:19:55 Protip: It uses the hostname 22:19:56 im not changing my effing ident for you 22:19:58 :D 22:19:58 ehird: change username 22:19:59 FireFly: duh 22:20:00 oh, ident 22:20:03 Vote ended. 22:20:04 Yes leads no with 3>0. 22:20:08 ^yes 22:20:08 No vote cast. 22:20:11 hum 22:20:16 okay 22:20:17 Heh, note-hird. 22:20:18 "No vote cast" is not correct either. 22:20:19 FireFly, hostname is bad, since often a lot of people are on the same host 22:20:25 lament: I know, i know 22:20:37 Better than no protection at all / nick protection 22:20:50 -!- BeholdMyBot has quit ("bye"). 22:20:51 ^vote Does ehird suck? 22:20:53 argh 22:20:57 hah :P 22:20:59 Timing 22:20:59 oh and no he doesn't 22:21:12 DOES TOO! 22:21:13 depends how well you pay. :| 22:21:16 :| :| :| 22:21:20 lament, that always confused me 22:21:44 lament: is "no vote in progress" better? :P 22:21:46 "Does too" seems like bad English grammar. 22:21:55 BeholdMyGlory, no voting in progress 22:21:57 here's a bass guitar with infinitely many (well, 10) strings: 22:21:58 wut is an idiom??????////// 22:21:58 may be better 22:22:10 ehird, ah, it is an idiom? 22:22:15 What exactly does it mean? 22:22:18 http://hpaste.org/13867 22:22:24 AnMaster: "no, you're wrong, it does" 22:22:30 you'll get the same shape if you tune a regular guitar in all fourths 22:22:31 ehird, ah thanks 22:23:04 because logically ehird, I think it sounds like it means "yes you are right, but it is also the opposite" or something like that 22:23:17 omg, english is not totally logical 22:23:18 !! 22:23:25 ehird, indeed :( 22:23:36 mi'e .Eli,at.xrd. 22:23:38 I hopes you people already advertised fungot's sources to new bot-writers, hmm? 22:23:39 fizzie: heh... yes, i can accept that... " angery"? 22:23:39 let's switch to LOJBAN 22:23:40 -!- BeholdMyBot has joined. 22:23:40 Hi, BeholdMyBot! 22:23:44 FireFly: yes 22:23:51 err 22:23:52 fizz 22:23:53 fizzie: 22:23:58 BeholdMyGlory: in case you missed it - http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 22:23:59 ehird: ( mit scheme)" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord) has a rather large undertaking a moderately sized channel made up of bugs, ahead of primitive nations like finland. :p they claim that a single lsd dose ( much lower than their freenode counterparts. 22:24:00 Ha, the tab strikes again. 22:24:03 it also interprets brainfuck 22:24:04 and underload 22:24:10 I suggest you don't bother. :D 22:24:21 ehird: and that is? :P 22:24:27 BeholdMyGlory: the source to fungot 22:24:27 ehird: yes i guess it can be taught how to optimise it... fnord! shub-niggurath! as a tripcode seperator along with the current cdr. 22:24:30 written in befunge-98 22:24:37 ehird: aha 22:24:37 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge 22:24:44 ^bf ,[.,]!it does brainfuck 22:24:44 ehird: that's just wierd 22:24:45 Interpreting ,[.,]!it does brainfuck 22:24:45 it does brainfuck 22:24:48 ^ul (and underload)S 22:24:48 and underload 22:24:48 I don't like the syntax of Befunge ._. 22:24:50 ^vote Should bots have the same rights as human IRC users? 22:24:51 Vote created by lament: Should bots have the same rights as human IRC users? 22:24:51 I prefer Argh! 22:24:52 fungot: and it babbles nonsense! 22:24:53 ehird: riight. with lynx that is: ( vector-set! hwc 3 o) 22:25:09 In conclusion: stop writing your esoteric bot unless you can match its features in a more esoteric way. :P 22:25:10 lament: err where does the scale start? from the lower-left? 22:25:22 ^maybe? 22:25:24 ^yes 22:25:24 Yes: 1, No: 0. 22:25:24 oklopol: from anywhere, really 22:25:51 Vote ended. 22:25:51 Yes leads no with 1>0. 22:25:58 oklopol: if it's c-major, then C is on the second string from the bottom on the first fret 22:26:10 oklopol: but basically whenever you see this shape 22:26:11 OO 22:26:12 OO 22:26:21 oh the 4th note from lower-left 22:26:21 the bottom-right note there is the root 22:26:30 yes 22:27:06 ehird: actually, it's not supposed to have something to do with esoteric languages 22:27:11 probably would've heard that if i'd sung that in my head, my pattern matching skills didn't do it without writing it down in another format first. 22:27:13 ehird: it just happens to interpret bf 22:27:23 BeholdMyBot, " Yes leads no with 1>0." <-- shouldn't it be "leads over" 22:27:31 no 22:27:35 no? 22:27:37 ok 22:27:51 AnMaster: sounds a bit swedish :P 22:27:53 AnMaster: is "komponist" the word for composer in swedish? 22:27:53 (visual pattern matching skills that is, they work more consciously, and less efficiently) 22:28:04 BeholdMyGlory, very possible 22:28:07 ^vote Does swedes pwn? 22:28:07 Vote created by BeholdMyGlory: Does swedes pwn? 22:28:10 oerjan, no 22:28:14 oerjan, kompositör 22:28:21 ah 22:28:23 oklopol: it seems necessary to imagine something like this while actually playing to be sure you hit the right frets 22:28:29 BeholdMyGlory: can you stop kthx 22:28:30 oerjan, I have no clue what a "komponist" is. 22:28:43 oklopol: (that's not much to imagine since the actual repeating pattern is pretty small) 22:28:44 ehird: yeah :P 22:29:07 Vote ended. 22:29:07 A draw with 0:0. 22:29:09 http://polandian.wordpress.com/2008/04/21/polish-road-signs-some-of-my-favorites/ 22:29:10 oerjan, what is it in Norwegian? 22:29:19 lament: well i remember all (jump-as-interval, jump-in-strings) tuples 22:29:30 AnMaster: komponist 22:29:51 ^vote Will this vote end in a draw? 22:29:51 Vote created by AnMaster: Will this vote end in a draw? 22:29:52 ^no 22:29:53 Yes: 0, No: 1. 22:29:53 -!- BeholdMyBot has quit ("bye everybody :D"). 22:29:54 all relevant ones that is 22:29:57 argh 22:30:01 i was trying to find a way to get only swedish hits on the question who wrote that song 22:30:02 I was trying to create a PARADOX! 22:30:03 hah :P 22:30:03 Is a nic elanguage 22:30:33 oerjan, try "search for pages in swedish" on swedish google 22:30:36 lament: of course i do imagine parts of that pattern automatically while doing that, i just never learned a pattern of any kind explicitly, so it's less conscious. 22:30:49 FireFly: using kompositör seemed to work 22:30:53 Ah 22:31:26 this too claims carola is the composer: http://www.notpoolen.com/SheetMusic/Default.aspx?SheetMusicID=1230 22:32:01 oerjan, well I can only cite what it says in sheet of music 22:32:04 *shrug* 22:32:18 wtf, why do I find you talking about carola? 22:32:20 is it really the exact same melody? 22:32:31 oerjan, no clue 22:32:37 nor do I plan to research it 22:32:45 it really doesn't interest me 22:32:48 afk 22:33:35 olsner: AnMaster said he was playing the traditional swedish christmas song "Himlen i min famn" on piano. i joked i thought that was by carola. and now i cannot find anything on the web to prove me wrong :D 22:34:01 but his notes are _older_ than carola's record! 22:34:18 she is a crazy devout christian so it wouldn't surprise me 22:34:57 i didn't know crazy devout christians could do time travel ;D 22:35:00 ^vote Will the next vote be ^no? 22:35:03 olsner: some redundancy there 22:35:31 * oerjan swats ehird 22:35:31 ehird: no, when it comes to carola that really isn't redundant :P 22:35:36 oh wait 22:35:41 * oerjan swats ehird -----### 22:36:26 "greater than the sum of the parts", perhaps... 22:36:52 i am _so_ intolerant :D 22:37:02 die atheist scum! 22:37:13 die ... non-atheist scum! 22:37:14 ooh burn 22:37:27 JIHAD ====\___/ 22:37:54 ANTI-JIHAD \////////////////////////////////// 22:38:15 INFINITE LOOP = SUICIDE +[>+] 22:38:25 At least for a computer 22:38:33 ^bf +++++[>++++++++++<-]>. 22:38:34 2 22:38:37 Thank you for that 22:38:50 ^bf +[>+] 22:39:06 maybe i shouldn't have done that 22:39:12 hm... 22:39:14 no. 22:39:15 it'll survive. 22:39:20 it'll just kill it after a while. 22:39:22 theoretically. 22:39:25 ^ul (im alive)S 22:39:25 im alive 22:39:28 see? 22:39:31 ah 22:39:39 that's better than mine 22:39:43 Indeed it is 22:39:45 :P 22:39:59 being coded in java, the memory runs out almost instantly 22:40:03 ... 22:40:08 java? 22:40:13 we're not friends any more. 22:40:13 Hm, what's ^ul? 22:40:17 FireFly: underload 22:40:22 ehird: why not? 22:40:24 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload 22:40:27 BeholdMyGlory: _java_ 22:40:32 ehird: yes? 22:40:41 BeholdMyGlory: _j_a_v_a_ 22:40:56 We have a Java test tomorrow 22:40:59 ehird: yes, i'm quite aware of the spelling 22:41:01 (Me & BeholdMyGlory) 22:41:01 >__< 22:41:06 you both suck 22:41:08 ehird: what's you point? :P 22:41:09 Not our fault ;< 22:41:17 It's either Java or no programming for us 22:41:17 FireFly: well he seems to be ok with it 22:41:21 in conclusion 22:41:23 BeholdMyGlory: you are unholy 22:41:37 ehird: tell me something i didn't know 22:41:49 ok, you are holy 22:41:56 omg 22:41:56 SURPRISE 22:42:03 but don't you like 22:42:11 have to be religious to be holy? 22:42:16 or something? 22:42:19 yes. you are religious. 22:42:25 also, swedish. 22:42:26 Hrm, intepreting argh in command-line would be quite hard 22:42:28 I rest my case 22:42:38 Argh!* 22:42:52 ehird: no. no, I certainly are not religious. you take that back this minute! 22:42:57 *am not 22:43:05 BeholdMyGlory: ok mr religious 22:43:07 FireFly: it's somewhere between argc and argv 22:43:30 >.< 22:43:33 ehird: you die now. 22:43:57 ^argh lh 22:44:03 BeholdMyGlory: insensitive much 22:44:08 :< 22:44:29 * oerjan makes another notch in his gun 22:44:37 oerjan, what gun? 22:44:42 by the way, everyone 22:45:06 how are strings stored in the buffer terminated in bf? 22:45:13 null? 22:45:29 This one //=== 22:45:45 It's either Java or no programming for us <-- ouch, at least I could take C++ course, which while still horrible isn't as bad as Java 22:45:50 ... BeholdMyGlory: 22:45:54 that makes no sens 22:45:54 e 22:45:59 ehird: probably not 22:46:00 oerjan, hm 22:46:01 there's no intrinsic string mechanism in bf. 22:46:06 oerjan, that looks strange 22:46:11 ehird: yes, i'm aware of that 22:46:28 ehird: didn't know how else to say it :P 22:46:38 ... i see. 22:46:40 AnMaster: you try making a 1-line ASCII gun 22:46:42 well you make no sense :P 22:46:48 oerjan, I don't 22:46:52 oerjan, or wait 22:46:52 ehird: I'm used to it 22:47:06 oerjan, ===# <-- seem from above 22:47:36 BeholdMyGlory: the language imposes no constraint on how you store strings. 22:47:39 `/¯'== 22:47:45 Hrm 22:47:57 * AnMaster prefers his =========##### (again from above) 22:48:01 what is it? 22:48:16 It was supposed to be something which it doesn't look like 22:48:18 BeholdMyGlory: EOF is often given as 0 on input, i think fungot uses that 22:48:19 oerjan: eval ( ( ( in there. an mit scheme repl does indeed provide hooks for customizing the printer, since everything is global :) 22:48:24 testing 22:48:28 * AnMaster waits 22:48:48 no one? 22:49:01 ^bf ,[.,]++++++++[>+++++<]>.!test 22:49:02 oh well, rifle 22:49:06 test ...out of time! 22:49:15 oh wait 22:49:18 ^bf ,[.,]++++++++[>+++++<-]>.!test 22:49:18 test( 22:49:19 oerjan: hm. i've tried that, but game of life doesn't work any better for that in my interpreter 22:49:38 errrrrrrr 22:49:38 BeholdMyGlory, eh? game of life in bf? 22:49:39 what 22:49:43 AnMaster: it exists 22:49:43 but 22:49:45 BeholdMyGlory: whaaaaaaaat 22:49:48 AnMaster: yes, of course 22:49:50 that makes no sense 22:49:50 that wasn't the game of life 22:49:50 yeah fung*t does 0 on eof 22:49:51 ... 22:49:59 AnMaster: game of life in BF exists 22:49:59 so stfu 22:50:06 oerjan, fung*t? Did you mean fungot? 22:50:06 AnMaster: import " ircutils" def x def lament set lament getuser " esoteric" and " fnord 22:50:12 that's why he did that. 22:50:19 http://www.linusakesson.net/programming/brainfuck/index.php 22:50:20 ehird, yes I know :P 22:50:56 ehird, also of course it exists, my question was how it was related to the line oerjan ran 22:51:12 you fail at parsing english. 22:51:13 I actually think that the person who made game of life to bf is swedish (Linus Åkesson sounds swedish, right? :P) 22:51:35 BeholdMyGlory, yes, but I don't know if it could be some other Nordic country 22:51:49 AnMaster: i was merely testing fung*t's EOF convention 22:51:55 AnMaster: my thought exactly 22:52:04 oerjan, ah 22:52:20 My name is Linus Åkesson, though some of you may know me as lft. I live in Lund, Sweden, and work as a software engineer. 22:52:21 take a guess 22:52:34 ehm 22:52:40 hm Lund, that is Danish isn't it ;P 22:52:40 I think he's swedish 22:52:42 * AnMaster ducks 22:52:42 BeholdMyGlory: other common EOF conventions for bf are "no change" and -1 22:52:59 oerjan: but -1=255? 22:53:09 (it is actually close to Denmark, and the dialect there is like a mix of Swedish and Danish) 22:53:22 BeholdMyGlory: well if it's 8-bit 22:53:47 Re fung*t, the tape is 1000 cells long, wraps, and the cells are 8-bit and also wrap. 22:53:48 oerjan: which it is, at least with my interpreter 22:53:56 fizzie: he means eof 22:54:02 BeholdMyGlory: go for 0 22:54:21 ehird: Yes, I just thought I'd list the other conventions I used. EOF-0 was already mentioned. 22:54:33 wait 22:54:34 1000 cells? 22:54:36 useless 22:54:45 why not make it unbounded 22:54:47 -!- Corun has joined. 22:54:56 ehird, have you run into any issues so far? 22:54:59 1000? isn't bf supposed to be "unlimited"? 22:55:11 BeholdMyGlory: 30,000 is müller's original 22:55:15 but unlimited is TC 22:55:16 BeholdMyGlory: if you want to test a game of life program you'll need to find the bf conventions used. the brainfuck page on the wiki has an entire section about bf convention variations 22:55:19 assuming an infinite computer 22:55:25 iirc 22:55:28 The original wasn't unlimited either. And I don't want it to consume an unbounded amount of memory. 22:56:08 ehird: well, i use an arraylist, making the memory unlimited, as far as java allows it 22:56:19 fizzie, do you pack 4 bf-cells into each bef-cell? 22:56:27 actually that would be messy 22:57:31 Yes, I don't do that. It's just that the "+n" operation (I combine consecutive +++s and ---s) actually does "x=(x+n)%256", and the "move right n steps" does "pos=(pos+n)%1000". 22:59:02 Time to sleep 22:59:42 fizzie, makes sense 23:02:08 okay, it's after midnight here in sweden, and it's time to go to bed 23:02:14 night all 23:02:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has left (?). 23:03:37 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:18:27 ARGH I have become trapped in a tv troupe website 23:21:30 ITYM tvtropes 23:21:37 ITYM? 23:21:46 GIYF 23:21:51 what? 23:21:57 JFGI 23:22:06 anyway I meant tvtropes yes 23:22:10 oerjan, stop it 23:22:19 LWAN 23:22:24 oh no 23:22:30 * AnMaster googles them 23:22:40 aha 23:22:43 aha 23:22:47 EOCREMCA! 23:23:11 I see 23:23:11 oklopol, that made no sense 23:23:16 it means "Life Without A Number" according to google 23:23:19 WTTBYAAN. 23:23:34 Did you mean: EUROCREME 23:23:34 No standard web pages containing all your search terms were found. 23:23:34 Your search - EOCREMCA - did not match any documents. 23:23:42 Your search - WTTBYAAN - did not match any documents. 23:23:45 oklopol, sigh 23:24:05 haha eurocreme 23:24:05 oklopol: you are even more evil than me. i am proud of you. 23:24:10 eurocreme 23:24:24 -!- ehird has set topic: eurocreme | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 23:24:34 * oerjan may be slightly affected by just reading dilbert 23:24:34 ehird, I totally agree 23:24:44 oerjan: well, did you? 23:24:54 ehird, did you google it first 23:24:54 did what? 23:24:55 i'll just assume you didn't, just tell my if you did. 23:25:12 ehird, it seems to be a site for gay porn... 23:25:13 you don't have to google "eurocreme". 23:25:16 i mean 23:25:21 euro creme 23:25:28 Eurocreme.com - Welcome to Eurocreme.com! 23:25:28 This site contains hardcore gay pornography. If you are under the age required by law in your place of residence to view such material, or if it is illegal ... 23:25:28 www.eurocreme.com/ - 7k - Cached - Similar pages - 23:25:31 well 23:25:36 hot. 23:25:41 ehird, I disagree 23:26:51 ehird: don't you dare ruin your precious innocence! 23:27:11 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:27:47 in no sense does he have innocence. 23:28:20 yay i found a flaw in oklopol's sarcasm detector! 23:28:39 oerjan: sorry, pun generator overrides it. 23:28:50 oh darn 23:28:53 :P 23:29:07 oklopol found a flaw in my pun detector! 23:31:11 inner sensation chicks are hot 23:34:13 okokokokokokokokokokokokoko 23:34:18 should probably go to sleep soon 23:34:30 courses start tomorrow \o/ 23:34:36 life is worth living again! 23:36:43 First amendment; therefore, despite being only 11, I can view all the hardcore gay pornography I want. 23:36:47 Or something like that, anyway. 23:38:13 you're 11 and you know lojban? 23:38:25 I'm 16 and know only some lojban. 23:38:33 well you know all the best words. 23:39:09 my nick comes from "lo polko", it means "the path", you know, i'm a kung fu master. 23:39:27 (also don't look that up, it's a secret gismu) 23:40:10 oklopol: kerlo = ihope 23:40:14 = Warrigal = warrie = uoris 23:40:18 = dogface or whatever 23:40:22 .o'acu'i 23:40:28 ehird: ohh that i have missed somehow. 23:40:29 Which took me two minutes to look up. 23:40:51 kerlo first entered here when he was 12, I know this because as an obsessive logreader I have to keep track of these things 23:41:23 Hmm. ihope, dogface, Warrigal, warrie, uoris, kerlo, in that order, I believe. So I change nicks every eight months, on average? 23:41:29 i guess 23:42:02 And kerlo is mundane enough that I could actually use it as a real-life nickname. :-P 23:42:13 "girl-o" 23:42:18 "warry gal" 23:42:37 haha, "waress" 23:42:48 I am a female war. 23:43:04 But "kerlo" is obviously a male name, as it ends in "o". 23:43:16 well yeah i guess girl-o could be like a tranny 23:43:32 Despite the last letter of a lojban gismu being meaningless except in precisely one case. 23:44:06 (It's required to distinguish between broda, brode, brodi, brodo and brodu, which are isomorphic.) 23:44:41 "ihope", planning to change sex, hoping it goes okay, "dogface", didn't go okay, "Warrigal, warrie, uoris", hormone treatments made you angry all the time, "kerlo", finally fully a woman 23:45:30 kerlo: if you're telling that to me, i will have to inform you i know everything already. and no one else cares. 23:46:17 aaaanyway, i'm going to sleep. getting a bit too imaginative. 23:46:19 -> 23:46:36 * kerlo applauds 23:47:01 ...did i guess right? 23:47:20 Yep. 23:47:24 :O 23:47:29 well congrats 23:47:37 maybe we can hook up some time 23:47:40 * oklopol goes -> 23:49:31 oklopol! 23:49:47 why do you have to go to sleep just when i see you? >_< 23:52:12 * ehird plays with forth 23:52:18 CHAR C EMIT 23:55:08 Hang on a moment, if you will. 23:55:58 does that print a C? 23:56:36 Never mind. 23:57:01 kerlo: what, are you going to leave us hanging like that? 23:57:18 [ehird:~/Code] % gforth forthbot.f -e "RUN BYE" 23:57:18 USER forthbot forthbot forthbot forthbot 23:57:20 NICK forthbot 23:57:22 JOIN #esoteric 23:57:24 sphear 23:57:26 oerjan: yes, it prints C 23:57:28 *phear 23:57:38 oerjan: no, you can stop hanging now. 23:58:26 whew 23:59:16 forth cat: 23:59:22 : CAT BEGIN KEY EMIT AGAIN ; 2009-01-13: 00:00:12 oi, revel in its awesomosity 00:00:27 It reminds me of... 00:00:30 ehird, forth is a fun language 00:00:34 but why upper case? 00:00:42 is it to show it is a SERIOUS LANGUAGE? 00:00:45 ;D 00:00:47 AnMaster: ANS Forth only guarantees that the standard routines are available in uppercase form 00:00:55 so, generally, you just TURN ON THE CAPSLOCK AND TYPE 00:01:21 kerlo: of... 00:01:26 ehird, well. ok. but I mean upper case only languages reminds me of COBOL and SQL. Not a nice combination 00:01:38 even though SQL is okish 00:01:42 : CAT [ , . ] ; 00:01:44 Forth is mainly used for embedded work. It's not pretty. It's a pretty closed-world system. 00:01:52 true 00:01:52 kerlo: That's essentially it :P 00:02:03 I mean, key returns as soon as one keyboard key is pressed. 00:02:06 ehird, it also reminds me of INTERCAL 00:02:18 and if you press , it just does a carriage return and goes to the start of the line 00:02:23 no new line, no clearing of the current one 00:02:37 err 00:02:41 s/carriage return/line feed/ 00:02:43 Are you trying to tell me that KEY gets a keystroke? 00:02:46 ehird, it wants CRLF? 00:02:46 or w/e 00:02:48 kerlo: yes 00:02:50 AnMaster: no 00:02:55 ehird, err what? 00:03:10 A line feed goes to the start of the line and does not give you a new line? 00:03:18 In other words, it returns the carriage and does not feed a line? 00:03:25 Okay, okay, it's a carriage return 00:03:33 but in forth, the word CR prints a carriage return/line feed so :P 00:03:34 confusing 00:03:50 indeed confusing 00:04:04 gah, my nc is not BIG_GAPING_SECURITY_HOLE'd 00:04:09 * ehird tries to make it so 00:04:59 make it .so 00:06:53 kfdfhgf 00:08:00 someone give me a working netcat 00:09:18 Didn't I have a befunge interpreter in forth somewhere? Maybe I should try enhancing it to do funge-98 some day... 00:09:28 : INIT-USER ." USER forthbot forthbot forthbot forthbot" CR ; 00:09:28 : INIT-NICK ." NICK forthbot" CR ; 00:09:30 : INIT-JOIN ." JOIN #esoteric" CR ; 00:09:32 : INIT INIT-USER INIT-NICK INIT-JOIN ; 00:09:34 : MAIN-LOOP ; 00:09:36 : RUN INIT MAIN-LOOP ; 00:09:38 is that good style? :P 00:10:08 * kerlo takes a look at su 00:11:09 Here's my Forth style, but I have no idea whether it's good or not; probably not: http://zem.fi/~fis/be.fs.html 00:11:58 BE-GETC is vey long 00:12:05 and you have stack diagrams up the wazoo 00:13:10 wazoo? 00:13:32 They are aligned in vim; I think the syntax/2html.vim gets confused by them tabs somehow. 00:13:48 ehird, wazoo - Zoo in, Washington, US 00:13:48 ? 00:13:55 s/in,/in/ 00:14:07 fizzie: yes but you're not meant to have them outside of word definitions 00:14:09 AnMaster: fail 00:14:20 ehird, was just guessing 00:14:27 A damn useful little "backend" utility begun 950915 or thereabouts, 00:14:27 as *Hobbit*'s first real stab at some sockets programming. Something that 00:14:29 should have and indeed may have existed ten years ago, but never became a 00:14:31 standard Unix utility. IMHO, "nc" could take its place right next to cat, 00:14:33 cp, rm, mv, dd, ls, and all those other cryptic and Unix-like things. 00:14:35 lol, nc was the guy's first sockets prorgam 00:14:53 great program, wonder why he fell of the face of the earth 00:15:11 nc rocks 00:15:19 ehird: Well, they were useful when debugging the thing. 00:15:22 AnMaster: not gnu nc 00:15:24 however I usually use socat instead 00:15:26 gnu netcat sucks 00:15:29 it is way more powerful 00:15:36 ehird, why does gnu netcat suck? 00:15:48 apart from bloated size 00:15:52 bloated, shitty, like all gnu programs, and not a real improvement over hobbit's original code 00:16:04 yea, gnu sucks in general 00:16:07 ehird, gnu emacs isn't shitty! 00:16:10 yes it si 00:16:12 but apart from that, sure 00:16:14 si 00:16:15 right 00:16:16 all bloated, un-unix-ish 00:16:19 Spanish? 00:16:21 original netcat is only 1668 lines long and does everything gnu netcat does 00:16:27 trying to do vender-lockin all the time 00:16:31 ehird, well yes, I prefer socat 00:16:33 as I said 00:16:44 and they code c like it was lisp 00:16:47 it is pretty awesome 00:16:58 the gnu coding standard is horrible 00:17:06 flexo, agreed 00:17:16 but gnu emacs rocks 00:17:18 gnu cat is a good laugh 00:17:22 that is the single exception 00:17:27 i like netbsd 00:17:33 gnu emacs is exactly like the rest of the gnu tools 00:17:33 I like freebsd 00:17:44 The original netcat doesn't do ipv6. Although I have to admit I use here openbsd's netcat, which is the original with IPv6 support patched in. 00:17:47 yea, well, i've got taste 00:18:12 flexo, I also use openbsd 00:18:16 that's the reason i don't like emacs either 00:18:22 Still, I think the GNU compiler collection doesn't suck that much. 00:18:27 agreed 00:18:34 oh it does 00:18:37 the gnu coding style is used there too though 00:18:45 yes and it sucks too 00:18:48 gcc is about the only gnu program which doesn't totally suck 00:18:55 flexo, it sucks more than gnu emacs 00:19:00 nope. 00:19:07 flexo, that is your opinion 00:19:11 gcc is alright 00:19:12 yea, and i'm right 00:19:22 flexo, except it is subjective clearly 00:19:30 actually.. nope 00:19:46 gcc is only nice because it works, though 00:19:47 code-wise, more of the same 00:19:50 flexo, well, I'm sure vim has nicer coding style, EXCEPT it doesn't do what I need 00:19:50 i disagree 00:19:54 so that is irrelevant 00:20:04 yea, vim isn't so nice 00:20:10 flexo don't bother arguing with AnMaster, he doesn't have mutable state 00:20:12 it's rather bloated 00:20:20 flexo, same for vi, it doesn't do what I need 00:20:24 ehird: look again, do you see me arguing? 00:20:27 yes :D 00:20:33 * AnMaster agrees with ehird 00:20:36 "yea, and i'm right" is not really an argument 00:20:52 Anyways, g'netcat. I mean, g'night. 00:20:53 AnMaster: well, you need the wrong stuff 00:20:55 ehird, I have a mutable state except when I don't 00:21:02 flexo, now that is subjective 00:21:07 nope 00:21:25 things can be subjective but there only be one right answer. 00:21:28 's called taste. 00:21:31 exactly 00:21:33 but then AnMaster is a hypocrite 00:21:38 see: "rock music" 00:21:41 ehird, how so? 00:21:47 hmm wonder why forthbot isn't joining 00:21:48 also I dislike rock music, and what about it? 00:21:54 how is that hypocritical? 00:21:57 emacs is like rock music 00:22:00 don't you see the connection? 00:22:01 nop 00:22:04 AnMaster: you force that on anyone who mentions rock music 00:22:05 ask ehird about it 00:22:06 flexo, it isn't 00:22:26 ehird, no it is my personal view point, which I indeed promote 00:22:40 that's it 00:22:41 you promote it 00:22:43 I don't go 00:22:45 hey AnMaster classical sucks 00:22:49 ehird, I learned how by your way of promoting OS X 00:22:49 whenever you mention classical music 00:22:50 :P 00:22:55 so you are a hypocrite too 00:22:59 i only do that when people are having an OS pissing match 00:23:05 or i'm blabbing to myself 00:23:16 os x sucks, actually 00:23:24 :) 00:23:33 flexo, not really 00:23:37 .. 00:23:47 this is how i got into esoteric programming 00:23:50 flexo, I mean, not compared to windows 00:23:51 i got so fucking frustrated 00:23:56 i like os x. some people with poor taste dislike it. 00:23:57 that's ok. 00:24:00 they're just misguided. 00:24:00 because all programming languages suck at some point 00:24:02 all apis suck 00:24:05 are inconsistent 00:24:07 everything sucks, flexo 00:24:11 the operating systems are buggy 00:24:11 etc. 00:24:13 the thing to do is to optimize for least suckage 00:24:13 ehird, YES! 00:24:16 I agree 00:24:19 everything sucks 00:24:31 yes. it's just a matter of paying the right amount. 00:24:34 but in brainfuck it's not possible to do inconsistent APIs 00:24:35 * ehird *groan* 00:24:38 to break naming schemes 00:24:42 or use sillyOnes 00:25:05 flexo, err yes it is, see gcc-bf 00:25:07 compiles C to bf 00:25:15 so? 00:25:17 % ./forthbot.sh 00:25:17 USER forthbot forthbot forthbot forthbot 00:25:19 NICK forthbot 00:25:21 JOIN #esoteric 00:25:23 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am an awesome cake 00:25:25 [hangs] 00:25:27 isn't that sufficient? 00:25:28 brainfuck is by definition always beautiful 00:25:32 i like that 00:25:43 flexo, obviously it must be related, so you can trace it back to the original code 00:25:48 even though names have been lost 00:26:02 it's related - so? 00:26:06 all the uglyness has been compiled out 00:26:14 no functions 00:26:29 no "real" abstraction mechanisms 00:26:33 ok, forth phails at unix pipes 00:26:34 tee hee 00:26:36 but you could do inconsistent parameter order, like stack_pop(stack, count) stack_push(count, stack, outvariable) 00:26:37 and so on 00:26:42 and it would be there in the result 00:26:50 flexo: another non-sucky piece of gnu software: gforth 00:26:51 yea well. but you don't see it. 00:26:52 ehird, funny 00:27:01 flexo, yes the calling convention you see 00:27:06 in brainfuck? 00:27:12 you don't see anything in brainfuck code 00:27:14 flexo, certainly, check gcc-bf out 00:27:21 if ais found somewhere to host it 00:27:29 ask ehird about details where it is hosted 00:27:45 i'm not going to check anything out to have you destroy my worldview 00:28:04 hah, ok 00:28:15 % ./forthbot.sh |cat 00:28:16 at least I accept that I'm wrong, when I *am* wrong 00:28:17 [hang] 00:28:29 ehird, funny, so gforth sucks? 00:28:33 no 00:28:36 what? 00:28:36 AnMaster: so do i 00:28:37 trying to get forth to integrate with unix sucks 00:28:41 ehird, ah 00:28:42 i just happen to never .. am? 00:28:48 eh. be! 00:29:02 flexo, hah 00:29:05 ... 00:29:06 :) 00:29:19 If you pipe into Gforth, your program should read with read-file or read-line from stdin (see General files). 00:29:20 well I'm sometimes wrong, but well saying subjective is objective is a bad one 00:29:21 o.k. 00:29:34 AnMaster: you know, i might have been kidding 00:29:36 ehird, the other way around then? 00:29:37 Now, time to try to figure out how to use Hugs. 00:29:46 AnMaster: type instead of ." 00:29:47 it seems 00:29:48 i'm fully aware that it's not possible to argue with insane people 00:29:48 kerlo, use ghc? 00:29:48 kerlo: don't 00:29:50 ghci 00:29:52 :P 00:29:57 someone prefering emacs over vi is obviously insane 00:30:06 so i must have been kidding in my tries to argue 00:30:09 AnMaster: type instead of ." <--? 00:30:16 ." a" 00:30:16 should be 00:30:19 S" a" type 00:30:20 well 00:30:22 it should be 00:30:23 char a emit 00:30:24 ehird, is that forth code? 00:30:25 but :P 00:30:27 yes 00:30:30 AnMaster: GHC doesn't work under Xen, I believe. 00:30:30 hmm that doesn't work 00:30:34 kerlo: wat 00:30:36 of course it does 00:30:39 i use ghc on rutian occasionally 00:30:42 kerlo, err there is no reason it shouldn't 00:31:01 Well, when I run GHCi, it gives me a fancy error. 00:31:15 kerlo, well whatever causes that it isn't xen 00:31:22 did you check if it was something else? 00:31:30 also why not look around for that error 00:32:36 aha, just need to flush stdout 00:32:46 : say stdout write-line stdout flush-file ; 00:32:50 I looked around for that error. The bug page says it seems to be caused by Xen. 00:32:55 ehird, it doesn't flush at exit? 00:32:59 i want line-flush 00:33:07 kerlo, what is this error? 00:33:25 -!- forthbot has joined. 00:33:25 I am an awesome cake 00:33:25 ehird, what is wrong with flush-file? 00:33:29 woop woop 00:33:30 it works 00:33:34 AnMaster: flush-file flushes it 00:33:36 stop being stupid 00:33:40 ." didn't work 00:33:42 neither did write-line 00:33:43 i needed to flush 00:33:44 so i did 00:33:46 as i said above 00:33:46 -!- forthbot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:33:51 ehird, well " i want line-flush" <-- why? 00:34:03 ok, i'm not talking to you until you can comprehend basic english 00:34:10 you made no sense 00:34:15 i see. 00:34:22 and if flush-file works, why did you want flush-line? 00:34:28 what would the difference be? 00:34:30 Okay, maybe it's not quite so Xen-related. 00:34:31 http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/2063 00:35:25 Though it doesn't actually look like that bug; it looks like this one: http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/2013 00:37:33 why do they need 32-bit 00:37:40 can't they use full 64-bit pointers? 00:41:31 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:43:44 kerlo, idea, if you have multilib, just build an -m32 haskell 00:43:51 ghc/ghci that is 00:43:54 he didn't build haskell. 00:43:56 almost certainly. 00:44:00 building ghc is nigh-on impossible 00:44:11 i.e., it takes 4-5 hours even on this fast machine 00:44:15 with parallel make 00:44:20 ehird, true, even gentoo offers a binary package for it 00:44:46 ghc, openoffice, firefox and thunderbird all have binary packages 00:44:53 what about x11/kde 00:45:03 compiling those is stupid, wasteful and slow 00:45:06 ehird, no, but they are much faster here 00:45:13 hm. k 00:45:16 X11 takes about 2 hour at most 00:45:26 kde takes like 8 hours 00:45:26 a complete KDE would take a bit less than 5 hours 00:45:45 ehird, depends, I only use kdebase and kdesdk + a few random other apps 00:45:51 gentoo uses split ebuilds for them 00:45:58 so you can just merge the programs you want 00:46:12 no need to compile each whole kde package 00:46:32 Here's an example of an invocation of Gforth that is usable in a pipe: 00:46:32 gforth -e ": foo begin pad dup 10 stdin read-file throw dup while \ 00:46:34 type repeat ; foo bye" 00:46:39 kill it 00:46:50 i don't think that can handle lines of more than 10 chars 00:47:14 ehird, ouch 00:47:23 This example just copies the input verbatim to the output. A very simple pipe containing this example looks like this: 00:47:24 cat startup.fs | 00:47:26 gforth -e ": foo begin pad dup 80 stdin read-file throw dup while \ 00:47:28 type repeat ; foo bye"| 00:47:30 head 00:47:32 and it magically changes to 80 00:47:32 hah 00:47:34 confirming my suspicions 00:47:38 yes 00:47:45 ehird, can't you copy n chars? 00:47:50 where n is unknown 00:47:52 probably. 00:47:59 but I don't want to figure it out until tomorrow. 00:48:02 on that note... ciao 00:48:06 ehird, night! 00:48:10 sleep well 00:48:15 or whatever you say in English 00:48:25 that works 00:48:44 :) 01:13:02 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 01:41:55 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 01:53:54 -!- seveninchbread_ has joined. 02:02:01 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:13:08 -!- seveninchbread has quit (Connection timed out). 02:16:14 -!- Corun has joined. 02:47:04 -!- seveninchbread_ has changed nick to CakeProphet. 04:11:29 Okay. Can anyone name *any* IRC bot that allows IRC users to more or less execute arbitrary code, other than lambdabot and bsmnt_bot? 04:11:41 why? 04:11:51 it's a pretty stupid thing to do 04:12:10 The guys who run lambdabot and bsmnt_bot do it. 04:13:57 and we are pretty stupid 04:14:19 Oh. 04:14:53 Okay, let me see if I can hack GHC into working on normish.org. 04:16:51 Oh, let's try a newer version. 04:26:53 kerlo: geordi 04:27:12 (in ##c++) 04:27:53 Oh, please. That is *so* last ten-minute period. 04:36:49 -!- kerlo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:45:57 -!- kerlo has joined. 05:07:08 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 05:22:12 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:41:32 <3 job karma 05:42:12 ooooooooooooooooooo 05:52:13 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:10:58 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:12:48 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 08:25:50 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:22:19 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:51:48 -!- Hiato has joined. 12:24:29 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 12:42:32 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:03:18 -!- jix has joined. 13:51:30 -!- Corun has joined. 14:42:54 04:14 Okay, let me see if I can hack GHC into working on normish.org. 14:42:54 04:16 Oh, let's try a newer version. 14:43:00 itt: kerlo has never heard of apt-get 14:44:17 ehird 14:44:22 I want to eat your bones. 14:44:28 okay 14:44:29 do so 14:45:14 Could you send your bones through the mail? 14:45:18 done 14:45:36 I hope they arrive soon. 14:54:08 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:23:39 http://ws.apache.org/xmlrpc/apidocs/org/apache/xmlrpc/server/RequestProcessorFactoryFactory.html?rel=html 15:31:54 we need a higher-order factory calculus 15:34:35 Abstractions run amok 15:39:01 [[Please, use more civilized language; remember, you're on the Internet.]] -- reddit 16:05:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:18:20 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:21:00 http://ws.apache.org/xmlrpc/apidocs/org/apache/xmlrpc/server/RequestProcessorFactoryFactory.html?rel=html 16:21:07 clearly this is a monad 16:21:14 moar liek gonad 16:21:38 requestProcessorFactoryFactory :: IO (IO Processor) 16:21:42 :D 16:21:57 oerjan: does yi work 16:22:05 never tried it 16:22:13 i am downloading it :D 16:22:40 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:23:21 actually there should probably be another IO on that, since the initial request is really a factory too 16:24:16 (IO replaced with another monad as appropriate, of course) 16:24:45 [[Please, use more civilized language; remember, you're on the Internet.]] -- reddit 16:25:00 [[Please, use more civilized language; remember, you're on the Internet.]] -- reddit 16:25:00 that would be sensible. 16:25:10 unfortunately, the internet rarely is. 16:26:02 CWD="`(cd \"\`dirname \\\"$0\\\"\`\"; echo $PWD)`" 16:26:04 impressive 16:26:23 O_O 16:27:37 rube goldberg programming? 16:43:30 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:57:33 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:45:44 ehird, http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#UNIX <-- crazy idea. And format of mask isn't specced 17:45:58 That's not crazy. 17:46:01 That's reasonable. 17:46:07 Also, you know what a umask is, presumably. 17:46:20 That spec is fine, and looks useful. 17:46:36 Change file access <- the only really vague part 17:46:57 true, guess: permissions 17:47:08 yes, probably chmod 17:47:20 almost certainly, in fact. 17:47:42 ehird, also his list of fingerprints is now crazily long 17:47:52 he's an odd guy. 17:48:01 but that spec is one of the better ones, it's just terse 17:48:01 ehehehe,,,, yes... 17:48:16 AnMaster: want vagueness? 17:48:16 http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#TRGR 17:48:54 ehird, indeed, my policy nowdays is to avoid implementing any RCS fingerprints that mycology doesn't test. 17:49:01 that's no fun 17:49:09 AnMaster: you should implement TRGR without looking at rc/funge 17:49:09 yes he wrote his own test suites sometimes, but often they are buggy 17:49:22 just implement what it says there, make up the unspecified parts (like wtf a trigger is) youreslf 17:49:30 and claim it to be spec-compliant, which it would be 17:49:51 ehird, well I have done similar before and it ended up with flames 17:49:59 when, which? 17:50:16 ehird, hm, interpreting REXP as using a global buffer for example 17:50:22 ah. 17:50:25 "flames"? 17:50:31 i don't think i've ever seen mikeriley show emotion :D 17:50:38 ehird, eheheheheheh,,,,,,,,,,,,! 17:50:47 ok, that got old when I specced mkry 17:51:12 ehird, true 17:52:57 I love the way that spec is called "UNIX" when it provides 15 instructions related mostly to unix permissions 17:53:31 it seems reasonable to me 17:53:33 they're unix syscalls 17:53:43 "UNIX", to me, implies all of unix 17:53:47 ehird, what about other unix stuff 17:53:56 I mean UPRM might have been a better name 17:54:01 i guess 17:54:34 Either provide all of unix in one fingerprint or split it into multiple fingerprints each of has a cohesive purpose 17:54:45 Deewiant, agreed 17:54:45 Not "some unix permission stuff and oh, domain names too" 17:54:54 it does domain names? 17:54:55 ok, thats stupid 17:54:56 D and N 17:55:00 what the hell's the difference anyway 17:55:11 why not use SCKE? 17:55:19 doesn't it perform those? 17:55:34 no 17:55:36 that makes sens 17:55:37 e 17:55:41 why 17:55:44 one is a reverse dns lookup of the current host 17:55:48 one is the /etc/hostname 17:55:56 hm 17:55:56 which is which 17:55:58 i'd only provide the latter, admittedly 17:56:02 Deewiant: N is hostname 17:56:04 D is domainname 17:56:09 figure it out :P 17:56:30 H( -- id)Get host id 17:56:31 huh? 17:56:33 what is that 17:56:45 ummmmmmm. 17:56:45 ehird: domainname comes from uname according to man 2 getdomainname 17:56:48 AnMaster: i don't know 17:57:03 in which case that may make sense but it still doesn't fit in the same fingerprint IMO 17:57:08 yes 17:57:10 but teh separation isn't bad 17:57:28 right, I just got what you meant by "one is a reverse dns lookup" 17:57:31 you meant SCKE, not D 17:57:49 AnMaster: hostid 17:58:17 hm 17:58:41 `hostid' prints the numeric identifier of the current host in 17:58:42 hexadecimal. This command accepts no arguments. The only options are 17:58:42 `--help' and `--version'. *Note Common options::. 17:58:43 interesting 17:58:47 so those aren't arguments? 17:58:56 no, they're options 17:59:02 ok 17:59:07 whatever 18:00:09 hostid supposedly comes from the MAC address of eth0 but I don't see the resemblance 18:00:16 nor do I 18:00:44 % hostid 18:00:44 00000000 18:01:03 ahaha 18:01:10 007f0100 18:01:14 I just realised what that is 18:01:16 besides my hostid 18:01:17 what 18:01:22 it's 0.127.1.00 18:01:23 ?? 18:01:28 lol wat 18:01:30 Deewiant, ah yes, and it is same as mine 18:01:31 which is the byte transposition of 127.0.0.1 18:01:35 XDD 18:01:40 which is unsurprisingly what's under localhost in /etc/hosts 18:01:41 yeah, 0.0.0.0 also works 18:01:44 and that's my unique host id 18:01:45 ehird, well it seems like a rather silly command 18:01:52 ::1 localhost 18:01:55 Deewiant, it tries to read /etc/hostid btw 18:01:56 I suppose that's what's causing it 18:02:00 doesn't seem documented 18:02:06 AnMaster: yes, if you've got one 18:02:08 the file doesn't exist though 18:02:23 Deewiant, can't find what the file is supposed to do 18:02:31 ehird: yeah, it probably does a scanf("%3d.%3d.%3d.%3d") :-P 18:02:46 no, 0.0.0.0 resolves to this machine 18:02:47 here 18:02:53 wtf 18:02:57 that's usual 18:02:58 try it 18:03:00 err 18:03:02 AnMaster: echo "foo" > /etc/hostid 18:03:02 hostid 18:03:05 ehird, resolves in what way? 18:03:06 0a6f6f66 18:03:09 Deewiant: doesn't work for me 18:03:14 ehird, DNS? 18:03:14 AnMaster: as an ip. 18:03:17 ah 18:03:25 ehird: what doesn't 18:03:25 ehird, because it doesn't resolve in DNS 18:03:29 running a server on 127.0.0.1 doesn't let anyone else access it 18:03:33 does with 0.0.0.0 18:03:33 but if you mean it is possible to bind to... 18:03:37 so, slightly different semantics on listening 18:03:41 ehird, yes of course, but that isn't same as "resolve" 18:03:43 but for connection 18:03:45 it's the same 18:03:46 it means "listen to all" 18:03:47 AnMaster: oh stfu 18:03:55 you can connect to 0.0.0.0 18:03:57 and get localhost 18:03:59 that's what i'm saying 18:04:00 ehird, resolve means "reverse DNS resolve" 18:04:07 shut upppppppp 18:04:21 just because you're a freaking pedant doesn't mean you have to complain even if you understand me 18:04:42 yes it does! 18:04:50 AnMaster: let resolve = "reverse DNS " ++ resolve in resolve ===> "reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS " ... 18:05:09 wait, i'm late for that argument thread... 18:05:28 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:05:30 Deewiant, checking if the result from reverse lookup resolves to same ip is a common check 18:05:32 ^ul ((reverse DNS )S:^):^ 18:05:32 reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS reverse DNS ...too much output! 18:05:39 for example ircds use it before showing host 18:05:49 if it doesn't exist someone is trying to fake reverse dns 18:05:56 a lot of other software also use it 18:06:09 wow, AnMaster excells further in the field of "totally irrelevant misunderstandings leading to ranting about minor points" 18:06:17 someone give him a reward 18:06:26 ehird, nice! 18:06:27 * Deewiant gives reward to AnMaster 18:06:47 AnMaster: now you need to give a speech 18:06:54 oh god, you'll set him off again 18:07:13 oerjan, oh? what sort of speech? 18:07:15 ^ul ((acceptance speech )S:^):^ 18:07:15 acceptance speech acceptance speech acceptance speech acceptance speech acceptance speech acceptance speech acceptance speech acceptance speech acceptance speech acceptance speech acceptance speech acceptance speech acceptance speech acceptance speech acceptance speech acceptance speech acceptance speech acceptance speech ...too much output! 18:08:09 Well I think this rewardm which seems to be oerjan's frying pan with the word "reward" painted on it, is very nice 18:08:17 but isn't stealing it a bit mean Deewiant? 18:09:20 Whence do you infer that I stole it 18:09:43 Deewiant, because I don't think oerjan would give it away voluntarily 18:09:57 You thought wrong 18:10:13 you said it was for short selling! 18:10:27 deewiant if I write a befunge-98 implementation in 5 characters will you rewrite mycology to give it all GOODs 18:11:16 ehird: no 18:11:22 deewiant why not 18:11:33 ehird: mu 18:12:23 deewiant why not 18:13:07 ehird: why would I rewrite something only to recreate the original: if your implementation is a befunge-98 implementation it will get all GOODs 18:13:20 well it would be a fuzzy implementation. 18:13:26 specifically, it would execute random parts of memory. 18:13:30 sometimes, that will run befunge-98 code. 18:13:35 you can do that in 5 chars? 18:13:55 then sometimes it will pass mycology. what's the problem? 18:14:06 Deewiant: yes. 18:14:18 ignoring the main() { } boilerplate. 18:14:21 well. 18:14:24 it'll be more like 10 chars. 18:14:34 -!- oklopol has joined. 18:14:51 i thought it was gonna be J or something... 18:15:14 jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj! 18:15:34 but J is probably memory safe 18:15:40 Deewiant: 18:15:44 #include 18:15:47 main(){return((int(*)(int))rand())();} 18:16:21 well, that doesn't bode for command args 18:16:22 ok 18:16:23 try this 18:16:38 #include 18:16:39 main(a,v){return((int(*)(int))rand())(a,v);} 18:18:00 hmm wait 18:18:02 that needs to be 18:18:10 #include 18:18:12 main(a,v){return((int(*)(int,char**))rand())(a,v);} 18:18:12 yw 18:18:32 RAND_MAX is too small, it'd only work on a small part of my memory 18:18:48 Deewiant: patches welcome, but that isn't an issue 18:19:02 i mean, the chances of the befunge-98 interp in ram being at a piece of ram < RAND_MAX is like 100% 18:19:14 ehird, is it? 18:19:18 yes. 18:19:18 hmm 18:19:23 ehird, why? 18:19:25 can one see from somewhere where stuff is in memory 18:19:29 AnMaster: because of magic 18:19:33 Deewiant: wut 18:19:41 and possibly set a minimum memory location where they must live ;-) 18:20:01 O0oOOOooo0ooo0oOoooo0oO0oOOoo0oo0000oo....... 18:20:02 ehird: well, stuff tends to have mappings to virtual memory 18:20:18 I'd guess there's something in /proc that'd tell me 18:20:22 Deewiant, you can see where things are mapped in the current process cat /proc/self/maps 18:20:23 iirc 18:20:27 on linux 18:20:38 mostly useful for debugging 18:20:58 so I see 18:21:06 hmm 18:21:25 any chance of seeing where the program counter is? :-P 18:21:32 Deewiant, gdb 18:21:37 attach gdb to it 18:21:53 meh 18:21:56 then it is show registers or something like that 18:22:14 cat I had installed, gdb I don't :-P 18:22:46 Deewiant, well obviously replace the "self" part in the path with the pid you are interested in 18:23:17 doesn't solve the problem of lacking gdb 18:23:45 Deewiant, well I guess you could write your own debugger to do it 18:23:45 I should write this interp in haskell. Wait, Asztal's done that 18:24:01 OoOOoO 18:24:17 waiiiiiiit 18:24:19 Asztal: that's in C++!!! 18:24:23 who did it in haskell? 18:24:44 I forget his nick, the finnish guy 18:25:13 :DD 18:25:14 fizzie? 18:25:21 oooh 18:25:22 ilari? 18:25:25 nope 18:25:30 did what? 18:25:30 has to be 18:25:32 not here now, I don't think 18:25:32 it's the rubiks cube guy 18:25:34 right? 18:25:55 I know a lot of finnish rubik's cube guys :-P 18:26:02 XD 18:26:15 ehird: looking at some programs on my machine it seems they all have their IP at locations beyond RAND_MAX 18:26:16 Deewiant, hm something on f? 18:26:23 Deewiant: that's their problem 18:26:35 Deewiant: the idea isn't to hit into a program 18:26:37 ehird: your interpreter likely has a 0% chance of success 18:26:42 the idea is to hit into some memory that happens to be valid machine code 18:26:45 that runs befunge-98 programs 18:27:08 funktio 18:27:10 that was his nick 18:27:10 ehird, err no, it is likely you will hit an unmapped area. then segfault due to that 18:27:16 http://funktio.awardspace.com/misc/hsfunge/ 18:27:17 AnMaster: wait, why are you using an OS? 18:27:20 and it's no longer up 18:27:20 I don't support operating systems 18:27:42 ... 18:27:48 ehird: good luck getting such memory without an OS 18:27:55 without stuff going on, the memory doesn't change much :-P 18:27:58 Deewiant: sure, it's meant to fit into your own OS 18:27:59 in kernelspace 18:28:17 does that not mean supporting operating systems 18:28:26 no, i don't support oses i.e. i don't support it in userspace 18:28:32 right 18:29:49 so I guess hardware drivers don't support much of anything then :-P 18:29:55 Deewiant, how goes work on ccbi2? 18:30:44 AnMaster: stalled since september due to DMD bug #2339 18:30:54 Deewiant, still not fixed. huh 18:31:08 AnMaster: my oldest open bug is from 2006 june 18:31:19 Deewiant, how many have patches? 18:31:25 AnMaster: ~none 18:31:27 a few might 18:31:29 ok 18:31:40 not by me, though 18:31:54 it /is/ a frontend problem so I /could/ fix it... if I could 18:31:56 also poll: should I make up a fingerprint for interfacing SQL databases? If yes which of these DBs: SQLite, MySQL, PostgreSQL 18:32:02 note I may not implement it 18:32:09 DB-independent 18:32:16 interpreter-defined 18:32:30 Deewiant, you still need DB-dependent connection of some sort hm 18:32:47 Deewiant, or it would be quite useless 18:33:04 interpreter-defined 18:33:18 i'll do better 18:33:23 i'll write OBJDB 18:33:28 well. 18:33:33 GRDB? 18:33:33 OBDB 18:33:38 funge object database. 18:33:43 basically, persistent fungespace. >:D 18:33:45 ehird, what about graph DB? 18:33:52 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 18:33:54 ehird: basically o and i? 18:33:55 AnMaster: no, that's too ... practical 18:34:05 Deewiant: yes but, can you use fingerprints with that? 18:34:11 ehird, FILE? 18:34:14 ehird: meaning what? 18:34:15 basically 18:34:24 Deewiant: e.g. say you have an OOP fingerprint that stores objects in fungespace 18:34:29 you could make it use the persistent fungespace 18:34:39 instead of regular fungespace 18:34:43 ehird: sure, you could use o and i to store that 18:34:48 Deewiant: o rly? 18:34:50 i mean like 18:34:51 new object 18:34:54 just gives you fungespace coords 18:34:59 the actual fungespace is in the fingerprint code 18:35:01 sure 18:35:05 but the persistent fungespacer 18:35:08 makes the fingerprint use it 18:35:12 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:35:15 can't do that with o/i 18:35:26 no clue what you mean. 18:35:27 ehird: VMEM? 18:35:38 ehird: sounds like virtual memory, anyway :-P 18:35:41 Deewiant, that exists? 18:35:46 RCS I assume? 18:35:49 AnMaster: nope 18:35:55 ah 18:35:58 Deewiant: it's basically mmap 18:36:10 wait hm, paging segments in funge space 18:36:10 ? 18:36:10 you can swap out some fungespace usage with a version that writes to a fil 18:36:11 e 18:36:18 VMEM indeed then 18:36:28 combine with an OOP fingerprint 18:36:30 ehird, also a crazy nice idea 18:36:31 and you have a funge object database. 18:36:33 :DD 18:36:36 ehird: you can write fungespace to a file using threads which do o every tick 18:36:49 but the code would need to handle paging itself 18:36:51 of course 18:37:00 fingerprints can't do it behind the scens 18:37:01 ehird: so the only new thing here is something like virtual memory unless I misunderstood 18:37:02 scenes* 18:37:14 Deewiant: that's 1) inefficient, 2) it's a separate fungespace: you can have multiple of them, and only do some things in them, etc 18:37:37 ehird: 1) that's probably how I'd implement it on windows anyway 18:37:41 ehird: 2) MVRS 18:37:58 VMEM should have memory protection too 18:38:02 Deewiant: can MVRS cause certain fingerprints to write to one of the fungespaces, 18:38:05 but have the rest of the program outside of it? 18:38:11 and still be able to access the fungespaces the fingerprints are using? 18:38:17 without these fingerprints knowing about mvrs, that is 18:38:26 hm. some nice ideas for this vmem 18:38:34 * AnMaster writes them down 18:38:36 ehird: yes, just run the code in a different mvrs? 18:38:41 basically a DMA-hole to disk! 18:38:41 er, universe 18:38:44 by mmap() 18:39:01 meh 18:39:04 also DMA has nothing to do with it 18:39:10 how far did hsfunge get? 18:39:11 but it sounds cool ;P 18:39:13 -!- olsner has joined. 18:39:26 ehird: it found a bug in mycology, can't remember if he did any fingerprints though 18:40:02 so should i do this in haskell or C :P 18:40:11 i should do it in haskell and be faster than cfunge for the lulz 18:41:14 good luck with that 18:41:31 :P 18:42:06 brb 18:42:18 I have some hidden ideas for funge-space algos which should be comparatively about as fast as cfunge without being as lame as 'static array the size of the biggest program I know of' 18:42:41 but only 'about' because that's obviously cheating and can't really be beat :-P 18:43:18 well, the static array thing is a good idea, but the biggest program i know of is kind of stupid 18:44:04 it's the size of mycology rounded up to powers of two 18:44:18 (256*1024) 18:44:25 yeah 18:44:41 still, the static array is still a good idea, right? 18:44:42 mycology is 180*800 or so and uses a bit of space on the negative side making it around 190*810 18:44:55 I don't like static arrays :-P 18:45:14 why not :P 18:45:54 if you have dynamic data it's just extra complexity 18:46:01 or a source of bugs :-P 18:51:05 poll time 18:51:15 "BEFUNGE-98EHIRD": C or Haskell or Other 18:53:48 Other. Specifically, Malbolge. 18:54:18 invalid option 18:54:20 Factor 18:54:37 Doesn't run on OS X Tiger because slava pestov is a kid with ADHD and can't stop using shiny APIs. 18:54:45 Joy 18:54:53 Does Joy even have file IO? 18:55:30 Doesn't it? 18:55:41 hm, "Grief programming language" 18:55:45 Well, okay, does it have any other OS interfaces Deewiant? 18:56:15 Probably not, I don't know 18:56:38 ehird: Cat, then. 18:56:53 "BEFUNGE-98EHIRD": C or Haskell or Other <- other, weird 18:57:04 or is it wired? can't remember 18:57:07 AnMaster: The author of Cat is a retard. he claimed that a lazy map function was O(1). 18:57:11 AnMaster: wierd 18:57:16 ehird, ah yes 18:57:17 thanks 18:57:22 well I suggest using it 18:57:25 of course it's O(1) 18:57:29 AnMaster: no 18:57:31 all lazy functions are O(1) 18:57:36 well, exactly 18:57:41 but you don't talk about them like that 18:57:44 because that's _idiotic_ 18:57:44 Haskell—the constant-time programming language 18:57:50 ehird, also i and o are optional 18:57:56 your mom is optional 18:57:59 so you can manage without file io 18:58:10 ehird, also I admit jitfunge is faster 18:58:13 AnMaster: he has to read the befunge file somehow 18:58:19 AnMaster: whence the source without I/O? 18:58:26 Deewiant, hm true 18:58:49 Deewiant, anyway fast mmaped IO in funge space sounds fun 18:58:59 hhmm. 18:59:03 can't you load fungespace with mmap? 18:59:04 I'm not sure how much it will impact stuff when I need to check if some area should be mmaped 18:59:08 for every read/write 18:59:12 and copy-on-write 18:59:27 ehird, I open with mmap() to avoid issues like fread() ends with \r and next start with \n 18:59:43 ehird, one issue is the source file line length will vary 18:59:49 I mean 18:59:51 without parsing 18:59:53 you need to build a line index or something 18:59:53 just mmap() and go 19:00:11 ehird, well don't think so due to varying line length, you need to locate newlines somehow 19:00:18 I did consider that a lot you know 19:00:21 for extra speed 19:00:37 and at least I couldn't figure out a way to do it 19:01:02 ehird, so basically you need to parse for \r, \r\n and \n 19:01:08 all are valid line ending 19:01:21 mycology uses \r\n for example 19:01:37 i'm gonna go for haskell because i don't wanna fuck with memory management more than i have to 19:02:00 hm copy on write in C, I know kernel does it by page faults and such 19:02:02 now convince me not to call it butts 19:02:16 ehird, call what butts? 19:02:22 the interp. 19:02:36 well, interp-and-possible-future-compiler-to-llvm because haskell has libraries for that and i am fucking nuts 19:02:37 well why should I convince you about that? 19:02:40 (nutphillia) 19:02:48 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 19:03:03 AnMaster: because if you try it out you'll have to phrase things awkwardly to avoid mentioning its name 19:03:07 ehird, and I only claimed cfunge was the current fastest _interpreter_ 19:03:18 I admit that jit compilers like jitfunge are faster 19:03:46 ehird: butts has nothing to do with fungi, and therefore cannot be the name of a funge implementation. that's just the way it is. 19:03:55 oerjan, good point 19:04:15 ok then, i'll call it neocallimastigomycota 19:04:35 oerjan, what about FBBI? Flaming Bovine Befunge Interpreter 19:04:39 funge 19:04:40 written by C. Pressy 19:04:42 is in befunge 19:04:44 is in FBBI 19:04:44 ehird, true 19:04:51 good point 19:05:35 oerjan: link to that page with funge-related names? 19:05:37 you linked to it a while ago iirc 19:05:43 ehird, and don't claim I can't admit when I was wrong in the future, now that it actually happened you saw me admit that right above 19:05:55 ~ 19:06:21 http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#IMTH <-- why... 19:06:47 quite a few of those exist in FIXP 19:07:03 the rest are trivial without IMTH I think 19:07:21 ehird: this time i might suggest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lists_of_fungal_species 19:07:49 meh 19:07:52 I preferred the flat list 19:07:56 darn latin 19:08:04 yeah those were in english 19:09:36 here's a big one: http://www.britmycolsoc.org.uk/files/ENGLISH_NAMES.pdf 19:09:43 it wasn't a pdf either :P 19:10:12 _and_ i didn't save the link 19:10:13 ehird, that isn't an issue when they open inline in the browser and without silly plugins 19:10:23 it just works here with konqueror 19:10:31 umm, that's a plugin. 19:10:35 also, pdfs suck anyway. 19:10:54 ehird, hm? kpdf is a kpart, which is used both by kpdf itself and by konqueror 19:11:11 AnMaster: kpart - you mean, a plugin 19:11:18 ehird, no a module 19:11:29 wow. it's not a module, it's a plugin. 19:11:31 how profound. 19:11:32 or kingerprint 19:11:34 ;P 19:11:34 a rose by any other name. 19:11:55 ehird, well I said "silly plugins", implying third party acrobat one 19:12:03 so sure it may be a plugin 19:12:15 if that makes you happier 19:15:21 another one: http://www.english-country-garden.com/fungus.htm 19:15:21 Deewiant, looks like Mike did his own variant of SNGL... SGNE 19:18:33 * AnMaster ponders a 3 letter fingerprint: SQL 19:18:36 well 19:18:50 I got some ideas for the "db independent" 19:19:46 all I will need is basic common SQL support. I mean, the concept of a database with one or more schemas, with views and tables (and possibly stored procedures and so on) 19:19:50 btw I just got an idea 19:19:54 for PostgreSQL 19:20:12 there is PL/pgSQL 19:20:17 and PL/Tcl 19:20:19 and several more 19:20:22 what about 19:20:26 PL/Befunge 19:20:27 :D 19:20:38 ehird, what do you thing? 19:20:43 think* 19:20:43 ? 19:20:53 ehird, about a PL/Befunge for Postgres 19:20:57 it's a crappy idea, like most of yours. 19:20:57 just a wild idea 19:21:04 did you want that, or the lie? 19:21:08 ehird, why is it crappy? 19:21:20 it's thoroughly uninteresting 19:21:22 there is a PL/sh even 19:21:25 which is worse IMO 19:21:46 (third party) 19:25:36 possible name: milkcap 19:26:28 ehird, for your interpreter? 19:26:34 yes 19:27:31 ehird, also if you decide to jit I'm not going to care, I don't have the time to add jitting to cfunge currently, no idea about later 19:28:26 it's the jitterbug 19:28:54 sigh 19:29:16 hm. mutability violating the liskov subtitution principle. interesting. 19:29:27 oerjan, that was too bad even for a groan 19:33:04 night all 19:34:17 Joel Spolsky reaches the minimum in substantive content: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2009/01/13.html 19:34:31 -!- olsner_ has joined. 19:34:45 what, he has even less content now? 19:34:56 you should have said reaches a new mininum 19:34:59 :-) 19:35:34 lament: he's still got a bit to lose, though... he wrote a full title summarizing the article which he found & linked to, he picked a quote to excerpt, and found a relevant picture and resized & embedded it into the post 19:35:37 pianos are so nice, they have black keys and white keys 19:35:39 still way too much work 19:35:51 while on a fretboard all notes look the same :( 19:36:15 ebony and iiiivory... 19:36:55 i seriously conteplate labeling a fretboard. 19:41:04 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:41:07 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:46:44 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:48:47 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 20:02:00 http://www.riffraff.info/2009/1/12/writing-a-shakespeare-interpreter-with-parrot 20:11:17 ^style 20:11:17 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 20:11:34 ^style ss 20:11:34 Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings) 20:11:56 fungot: don't you think these parrots are getting uppity? 20:11:57 oerjan: lucil. seruilius? you are they that hear their detractions, and can digest as much: make no compare between that love a woman can bear me and that i am 20:15:12 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:21:26 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:21:30 ^style irc* 20:21:30 Not found. 20:21:35 ^style ff7 20:21:35 Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII) 20:21:48 * means selected 20:21:50 fungot: poop. 20:21:51 ehird: aooooooh!! get in the attack on weapon. we can't use it in time! don't let your guard down! or ain't my hospitality good enough for you to the ancients, only aerith can save our lives. 20:21:55 fungot: poop out some text. 20:21:55 ehird: we've finally found you. 20:22:12 oh dear oh dear 20:25:01 -!- Corun has joined. 20:30:47 two yesses and i'll watch an ep, otherwise not. 20:30:49 ^bool 20:30:49 Yes. 20:30:50 ^bool 20:30:50 Yes. 20:30:55 * oklopol watches 20:37:58 fungot: you enabler you 20:37:58 oerjan: got it going to let them get any customers so. your orders? where are you talking about this? simply destroy a group like that you a copy once i push this button, they'll hear you. 20:41:55 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:46:53 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:08:58 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:21:29 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:23:37 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 21:23:44 Is the answer to this question "No."? 21:23:44 ^bool 21:23:45 No. 21:23:57 Great Success! 21:24:47 Is the answer to this question maybe? 21:24:48 ^bool 21:24:48 Yes. 21:25:10 erm... 21:25:15 According to fungot, the answer to MizardXs question isn't "No." 21:25:16 FireFly: i thought you were alive somewhere... before. goin' on!? da-chao statue and leviathan are ashamed!! you all right 21:25:25 'kay. 21:25:39 Is the answer to this question yes? 21:25:41 ^bool 21:25:42 Yes. 21:30:44 What is the answer to this question? 21:30:51 ^ul (A cheat.)S 21:30:51 A cheat. 21:37:07 -!- MigoMipo has quit. 21:37:34 How did Vundo manage to protect itself even in Safe Mode? 21:39:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:40:28 idea: 21:40:39 a virtual machine running unpatched windows xp, with a mail account 21:40:46 a daemon runs on the machine containing it 21:40:54 whenever it gets an email with an attachment, it puts the attachment into the vm 21:40:57 and executes it 21:41:03 any next buttons are automatically clicked or sth 21:41:11 and, regularly, screenshots are automatically taken 21:41:14 and posted to a website 21:41:16 -> chaos 21:43:25 ehird: http://xkcd.com/350/ 21:44:19 ha 21:58:37 I'm pretty sure a file I have on my computer is part of Vundo, even though almost nothing detects it 21:58:43 Is there any place I can submit it? 21:59:06 yes. email a security company. 21:59:52 Like who? 21:59:56 try google 22:01:02 Found a place 22:01:20 where 22:01:55 -!- comexk has changed nick to comex. 22:02:32 "Because Vundo has random file names, it is not possible for VundoFix to have a 100% detection rate. Often, the infected files must be removed using VundoFix's "Add more files" option (they cannot be removed manually in any way)." 22:02:38 maybe that is relevant? 22:03:10 VundoFix has an "Add more files" option? 22:03:24 * Sgeo goes to use 22:03:27 (from wikipedia:VundoFix) 22:03:38 Although, if I knew of that earlier, I would not have found this second file 22:04:17 sgeo, how did you get infected? 22:04:26 Don't know 22:04:27 stoopid :| 22:04:38 so why are you using windows again 22:04:48 Various windows-only games 22:05:18 wut is wine/vmware 22:05:28 oooooooooooooooooooooo 22:05:35 VMware doesn't work with 3d 22:06:13 and WINE doesn't work with one of the programs I want 22:06:38 so use wine with all but the one which it doesn't work with, use vmware for that one 22:06:41 better not have fun than to use windows. 22:06:56 -!- olsner_ has changed nick to olsner. 22:06:57 The one it doesn't work with is a 3d program 22:07:11 just stop playing and quit wineing. 22:07:25 Sgeo: so boot into windows for that one 22:07:47 Or have a separate Windows laptop maybe.. OH WAIT 22:20:24 -!- Corun has joined. 22:24:27 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 22:25:18 funge 98 in haskell project 22:25:19 i 22:25:20 s 22:25:22 GO 22:25:54 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 22:26:00 i wonder what i should implement first 22:26:12 > 22:26:18 wut? 22:26:35 or maybe v ? 22:26:38 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:26:43 oerjan: nowhere near that stage first 22:26:50 that has to come after a complete fungespace impl... 22:27:47 -!- flexo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:27:53 -!- flexo has joined. 22:28:57 hm 22:32:48 so. who's alive of {fizzie,Deewiant,AnMaster,Asztal}? 22:32:52 {,Azstal} 22:33:18 hm? 22:33:30 trying to get the funge implementors :^) 22:33:51 oh that sz/zs thing 22:34:31 :-P 22:36:42 MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE 22:37:17 i detect a distinct lack of membership in the presented set 22:37:25 :| 22:37:31 :< 22:37:34 :( 22:37:36 have you implemented funge-98 oklopol 22:37:48 nope, nuvvah 22:37:53 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:38:05 93 a few times, does that count as one 98? :P 22:38:41 no :P 22:38:51 oh :( 22:39:45 i guess the first problem is to choose the datastructure for an infinite, reasonably efficient mutable array, 93 experience won't help there 22:40:06 oerjan: also, N-dimensional 22:40:27 yeah 22:40:47 also, lahey space 22:40:54 oh right 22:41:04 so need to detect line ends 22:41:22 scratch my Data.Map suggestion for simplicity then 22:41:34 Data.Map wouldn't be nearly fast enough anyway. 22:41:40 Note, oerjan, that it does need to be sparse. 22:41:52 Data.Map is sparse 22:41:55 yes 22:41:57 oerjan: {} 22:42:05 I need an infinite efficient mutable sparse array in N dimensions, that I can use as a lahey space 22:42:10 oklopol: hm? 22:42:13 I'm going to tell #haskell that 22:42:14 :DD 22:42:16 oerjan: py 22:42:24 hmm 22:42:27 oerjan: 22:42:28 The requirements for a line in Lahey-space are the following: Starting from the origin, no matter what direction you head, you eventually reach the origin. If you go the other way you reach the origin from the other direction. 22:42:37 doesn't that break down for infinite arrays? 22:42:57 er 22:43:21 as i said, you need to detect the end 22:43:49 well just store max coords in all directions. 22:43:52 (of inhabited space) 22:44:34 oerjan: then... that's not fungespace 22:44:39 fungespace is finite, isn't it? 22:44:40 AnMaster? 22:44:41 Deewiant? 22:44:49 http://www.gopromusic.com/get.php?id=1235 22:44:52 what are you talkin about? 22:45:13 lahey-space was invented for funges afaik 22:45:23 and they are infinite 22:46:31 meh, okay 22:46:37 but 22:46:37 oerjan: 22:46:40 Starting from the origin, no matter what direction you head, you eventually reach the origin. 22:46:43 that implies finiteness 22:47:04 only in an abstract sense 22:47:11 what really goes on iirc: 22:47:45 when you reach the end of the inhabited part of a line, you turn around and go to the other end, then turn again 22:47:50 ah 22:47:54 so you jsut keep track of current bounds 22:47:57 oerjan: i just mean that's a way to know when there's only uninhabited shit left. 22:47:58 and expand when you put stuff further? 22:48:01 yep 22:48:03 max coords of el habitation. 22:48:51 oerjan: but e.g. "g" still works on uninhabited space 22:48:51 like 22:48:56 if we just have 0,0 inhabited 22:49:00 also, the "going to the other end" is of course without executing anything 22:49:01 does 1,1 == 0,0 22:49:02 when you g it? 22:49:05 i.e., does g wrap 22:49:07 or only the ip 22:49:21 only the ip 22:49:41 heck otherwise there would be no easy way to expand the space... 22:49:52 no 22:49:53 that'd be using p 22:49:56 im talking about g 22:50:04 well yeah 22:50:18 http://search.cpan.org/~jquelin/Language-Befunge-4.07/ latest release november, i wonder if it works under mycology 22:50:19 but they are opposites so it would be insane 22:50:24 tru 22:50:40 i don't _think_ funge-98 is insane in that particular way 22:51:38 it's not exactly obvious how it's wrap if it wrapped. 22:51:45 *it'd 22:52:26 lucky i have fuzzy parsing on :D 22:53:56 keeping only global bounds could be inefficient though 22:54:16 what do you do then 22:54:29 keeping bounds for each line 22:54:49 ah 22:54:50 so 22:54:57 > 22:54:57 aaaaaaaaa 22:55:02 the first > meets itself instantly? 22:55:08 right 22:55:09 ofc 22:55:17 befunge-98 is fucking crazy 22:55:30 the wrapping is instantaneous 22:55:37 holy fack. 22:55:38 the other option is to loop infinitely anyway 22:55:45 lol 22:55:50 which is important for synchronized threading iirc 22:56:14 well not that important, you don't actually need to wrap, ever. 22:56:27 what is more important is that whitespace is instaneous 22:56:53 i vaguely recall someone mentioning it was ambiguous if it wrapped in a string 22:57:58 huh? 22:58:11 like if you have string mode and start moving into the infinite? 22:58:16 yes 22:58:24 err 22:58:32 in string mode, was whitespace space or not? 22:58:51 well obviously it's space if it's inside 22:59:03 if it's space, then moving out of bounds should, imo, simply start making an infinite string and exhaust all memory. 22:59:16 the whitespace is collapsed XML-style in a string :) 22:59:27 O_O 22:59:33 yep 22:59:34 the idea is just whitespace is a special optimized nop 22:59:36 'tis 22:59:37 ok that part _may_ be insane :D 22:59:38 hi Asztal 22:59:44 hello 22:59:47 it's not in string mode 22:59:55 Asztal: i assume you're willing to answer my endless qs :D 23:00:15 I can try :) 23:01:08 i wonder if I should ask Haskell "So. I need an infinite efficient mutable sparse array in N dimensions (settable at runtime), that I can use as a lahey space" again 23:09:17 again? 23:10:34 yes 23:11:19 -!- Corun has joined. 23:18:37 23:18 from that page: "Lahey-Space is a mathematical model of the space used in Funge-98" <-- that is a lie 23:18:38 23:18 rwbarton: is it now 23:19:01 23:18 Yes 23:19:02 23:18 There is no math in the subsequent section 23:19:03 fail 23:21:27 -!- Corun has changed nick to SomeGuy. 23:21:45 -!- SomeGuy has changed nick to KEITH-EMULATOR. 23:22:04 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:22:06 -!- KEITH-EMULATOR has changed nick to Corun. 23:22:32 Corun: so there's a shortage of real keiths now? 23:22:35 <_< 23:22:36 Syntax 23:22:36 The syntax for identifiers draws from the best parts of the esteemed languages BASIC and Perl. Like Perl, all identifiers must be preceded by a $ symbol, and like BASIC, identifiers must be followed by a symbol indicating their type. Except we don't care about their type really, so we say they must be followed by $. (Studies also show that this syntax can help serious TeX addicts from "bugging out".) 23:22:41 -- http://catseye.tc/projects/quylthulg/doc/quylthulg.html 23:24:17 ehird: sure it was fail and not a joke? 23:24:22 oklopol: nope 23:24:26 it was fail 23:24:27 >_< 23:24:37 i mean it was a pretty classic joke. 23:24:58 was a pretty lucky fail 23:25:45 I'm glad I didn't bother with the N dimensions thing 23:25:50 As an example, 23:25:50 -foreach $x$ = [2, 3, 4] with $a$ = 1 be *$a$*$x$* else be null-1- 23:25:51 will evaluate to 23. On the other hand, 23:25:53 foreach $x$ = null with $a$ = 1 be $a$ else be 23 23:25:55 will also evaluate to 23. 23:26:24 i think there's still some serious tex bugging there 23:27:03 Now you see why we don't need arguments to these macros: you can simply use macros as arguments. For example, 23:27:03 {*[SQR][*{X}*{X}*]}{*[X][5]}{SQR} 23:27:35 The first school (Chilton County High School in Clanton, Alabama) says that most comments that programmers write are next to useless anyway (which is absolutely true) so there's no point in writing them at all. 23:27:36 The second school (Gonzaga College S.J. in Dublin, Ireland — not to be confused with Gonzaga University in Spokane, Washington) considers comments to be valuable as comments, but not as source code. They advocates their use in Quylthulg by the definition of macros that are unlikely to be expanded for obscure syntactical reasons. For example, {*[}][This is my comment!]}. Note that that macro can be expanded in Quylthulg using {}}; it's just that the Gon 23:27:41 zaga school hopes that you won't do that, and hopes you get a syntax error if you try. 23:27:43 The third school (a school of fish) believes that comments are valuable, not just as comments, but also as integral (or at least distracting) part of the computation, and champions their use in Quylthulg as string literals involved in expressions that are ultimately discarded. For example, <"Addition is fun!"<+1+2+<. 23:31:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has left (?). 23:38:50 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:39:22 Is Quylthulg turing complete? 23:39:35 yes. 23:40:02 beyond all doubt, apparently 23:40:03 with addition of the turing-completeness instruction? 23:40:54 * oerjan sprays Sgeo and lament with Doubt-B-Gone 23:42:19 PHHSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHTt. 23:42:51 a language with no iteration would be fun 23:42:54 the code is a list 23:43:04 so loops are making lists that cycle a few times 23:45:26 a cyclopean language 23:46:08 it cycles, just like the bass guitar fretboard 23:57:13 AAAAAAHHHHHHHRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH! 23:57:34 what 23:57:38 why did you say that in both channel 23:57:39 s 2009-01-14: 00:08:19 so oerjan and oklopol 00:08:24 is norway or finland better? 00:14:00 I thikn I'm talking to a markov chain bot 00:14:01 00:12 This is not #haskell. Maybe you could consider better file handling rather than loading the file into an array. Like in C I have a file handle which could with a releatively simple fn be move to point to the same column in the next/previous line. You don't need to load data into an array to own it, you just need to manage it properly however you decide to manage it. thanks for being awesome. thanks for the example code. Hope all the 00:14:05 pro 00:16:10 anyone want to decipher that? 00:17:40 what? 00:17:42 pretty simple 00:18:29 are you writing it in haskell? 00:18:56 no 00:18:58 im talking about that guy 00:19:04 i can't tell wtf he's trying to say 00:19:59 you don't need the file in an array 00:20:56 i think you're messing with me. what i'm saying is that this guy is making no sense at all, he's just spewing random shit every time i say something to him 00:21:22 it makes sense to me 00:23:33 bsmntbombdood: never been to finland. good night. 00:23:36 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 00:23:38 maybe i should learn haskell 00:48:55 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:59:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:24:19 *yawn* 01:24:20 bored! 02:44:34 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:05:53 Write a language 03:05:59 What else does one do when bored? 03:06:34 Write a very very simple language, in machine code (yes, machine code, not asm) 03:07:00 Then write a superset language, written in the original language 03:07:03 And keep doing that 03:07:20 Until you have a relatively feature full language written in itself 03:07:33 Without ever having written an interpreter in any other language 03:08:29 N...No? 03:09:13 N...Yes? 03:09:17 Y...No? 03:09:19 no. 03:09:21 Oh. 03:09:24 -!- pikhq has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:11:04 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:11:08 Or you could initially write it in itself 03:11:13 And hand compile it. 03:17:19 heh 03:19:31 -!- Corun has quit ("WOT"). 03:52:37 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 04:23:46 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:25:27 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 04:43:15 -!- Corun has joined. 05:12:51 -!- Corun_ has joined. 05:18:51 bsmntbombdood: is norway or finland better? <<< come to finland and we can go fishing 05:19:01 oklopol: k 05:19:20 the nordic countries sound nice 05:20:47 -!- Corun_ has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 05:21:42 i don't actually fish, ever 05:21:50 norway is better for that. 05:23:55 yeah fishing is not very fun 05:29:13 ooooooo 05:29:43 gotta gope, -> 05:29:58 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:47:44 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 05:55:51 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 06:09:02 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:11:02 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 06:13:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:45:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:02:43 -!- olsner has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:17:22 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:14:20 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:39:54 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 11:44:24 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:08:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:23:51 -!- jix has joined. 12:42:37 -!- oerjan has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:45:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:47:16 -!- ais523_ has joined. 12:52:54 -!- Mony has joined. 12:54:09 plo 12:54:11 p 12:54:14 p 12:54:18 o 12:54:19 wait, you fixed it first 12:54:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 12:54:44 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 12:54:48 ep? 12:54:49 ^bool 12:54:50 No. 12:54:51 :| 12:54:58 pepep 12:55:01 let's try that one again 12:55:02 ^bool 12:55:02 Yes. 12:55:05 thought so 12:56:32 how are you guys ? 12:56:38 fine, a bit tired 12:56:50 I'm three miles tall. 12:57:03 Slereah_: is this some definition of mile I'm unaware of? 12:57:18 No. 12:57:26 hmm... what's the horizon on 3 miles? 12:57:26 lol 12:57:30 I'm wondering if I can see you from England 12:58:19 Buy some binoculars with your wolfram money mister millionaire. 12:58:35 actually, I was wondering if the curvature of the earth got in the way 12:58:46 and I'm mostly using the money to cancel out student debt 12:58:58 Is school expensive in England? 12:59:12 it can be, but University is very expensive 12:59:20 mostly because you have to meet living and tuition costs yet don't have a job 12:59:25 I pay like 400 euros a year here. 12:59:29 so students famously nearly always get into huge amount of debt 12:59:45 it's something like £1175 per year over here 12:59:46 Well, I'm still at my mom's, so it helps 12:59:53 plus the cost of living 13:00:00 which normally comes to more 13:15:19 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 13:45:11 -!- Corun has joined. 13:50:09 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:04:27 hi ais523 14:04:44 o 14:04:44 o 14:04:44 o 14:04:45 o 14:04:46 -> 14:04:49 hi ehird 14:21:47 ehird: coding a Befunge-98 interp in Haskell? 14:21:54 that is my intention, yep 14:22:05 i also intend to implement every fingerprint I can. 14:22:16 more even than the AnMaster list? 14:22:18 Deewiant: actually, funge98 14:22:29 I hope to be N dimensional. 14:22:30 at runtime 14:22:35 * ais523 wonders vaguely if ehird is mad enough to implement IFFI 14:22:37 ais523: Sure, he doesn't even do stuff like TRDS. 14:22:44 Or half of MikeRiley's fingerprints. 14:22:45 Or MKRY! 14:23:04 note that IFFI is written such that it could in theory be used with INTERCAL interps other than C-INTERCAL 14:23:08 or even with languages other than INTERCAL 14:23:13 IFFI would be fun 14:23:15 hi ais523 14:23:17 I implement every cross-platform fingerprint which makes a degree of sense 14:23:17 hi AnMaster 14:23:26 Deewiant: and IFFI doesn't? 14:23:27 (that excludes MKRY among others) 14:23:40 Deewiant: i will implement fingerprints no matter if I can test them on the right software/hardware or not 14:23:49 and sense will get your fingerprint delayed 14:23:59 also: ponies. 14:24:06 ais523: IFFI was the intercal one? I'm not sure it does ;-) 14:24:21 Deewiant: well, a lot is left implementation-defined 14:24:28 ais523, I'm currently writing down ideas for a fingerprint called SQL, very early, not even level of draft yet 14:24:42 umm, that's a nice random topic change 14:24:48 and it also depends on the "implementation-specified instructions" area with charcodes above 100 14:24:53 *128 14:24:54 ehird, err? it is befunge related 14:25:12 * ais523 thought ehird was referring to the /topic 14:25:37 no, that's a reference to a gay porn site. google corrected an acronym oklopol said to EUROCREME 14:25:46 and apparently it's a gay porn site. so there you go. 14:25:50 http://rafb.net/p/Z73Y8i84.html <-- some random ideas for it, most isn't detailed yet, like parameters for most things and so on 14:26:11 any constructive comments are welcome 14:26:26 it's still a thoroughly uninteresting idea. 14:26:56 ehird: this isn't about MKRY randomness or TRDS insanity, this is about Befunge as a practical esoteric language for the 21st century 14:27:06 har har har. 14:27:07 you have to admit, on the practical esolangs side, Befunge is winning 14:27:09 ais523, :D 14:27:36 Deewiant: what would you use if you needed a Data.Map that'll get mutated alll the time? 14:27:37 it has the best stdlib of any esolang I know, apart from possibly Deltaplex 14:27:38 i.e., fungespace 14:27:47 and I don't really know Deltaplex 14:27:49 ehird: OCaml 14:27:50 ehird: Data.Map. :-P 14:27:54 ehird: it's what hsfunge used 14:28:04 ais523, I think I should return stuff like what db drivers are supported and such (possibly). If I implement this in cfunge it will probably support sqlite and postgresql 14:28:05 ais523: fuck you. Deewiant: how slow was hsfunge? 14:28:07 ehird: but, uh, have fun with N dimensions 14:28:10 with easy to add new drivers 14:28:17 Deewiant: wellllll, I'm not sure it can be done 14:28:18 I mean 14:28:19 ehird: not /too/ slow 14:28:23 you need instructions for turning in N dimensions 14:28:32 ehird: can't remember, maybe about 50x slower than cfunge 14:28:36 Got reference for MKRY (I couldn't find one that's up)? 14:28:43 Ilari: yes, google cache: 14:28:45 Ilari: it's a joke. 14:28:50 yes, it is 14:28:50 Ilari: not a very good joke either 14:28:55 agreed 14:29:07 pfft, it's hilarious 14:29:34 hrm, no google cache. trying web archive 14:29:41 ehird: I seem to recall hsfunge getting through mycology in 1-2 seconds but I don't remember on what machine so I can't compare that time to anything 14:29:49 ais523, anyway what is needed for a generic database access abstraction interface? I have only used mysql, sqlite and postgresql so I don't know what other database systems could need. 14:29:59 ehird: you could just install an httpd on eso-std.org... 14:30:04 odbc and such for example, (I don't even know how that works) 14:30:08 no i couldn't because i didn't save tusho.net 14:30:25 eh? 14:30:26 oh, you lost the spec too? 14:30:33 sure. 14:30:34 ah 14:30:35 wait. 14:30:37 it;'s here 14:30:42 maybe. 14:30:55 ehird: eh? what happened to tusho.net 14:31:00 well, my opinions on wiping a server to uninstall all the software vs. simply uninstalling all the software using the package manager are a matter of private record 14:31:06 Deewiant: /shrug 14:31:14 ais523: you know what, it's my server, i really don't give a shit. 14:31:57 AnMaster: are you going to implement a driver-independent syntax for SQL queries? 14:32:02 flood time 14:32:03 Ilari: 14:32:05 14:32:06

"MKRY" (0x4d4b5259)

14:32:08

a funge-98 fingerprint by tusho

14:32:10
14:32:12
C ( -- c... ) 14:32:14
Push ','s 14:32:16
D ( -- c... ) 14:32:18
Push '.'s 14:32:20
E ( -- c... ) 14:32:22
Push 'e' and 'h' (random) 14:32:24
14:32:26

All pushes from 3 to 15.

14:32:28 14:32:30 before you say anything, that's the idea. 14:33:31 ais523, hm there is the SQL standard 14:33:47 AnMaster: yes, not all DB drivers implement it correctly 14:33:50 ais523, isn't that enough? I assume everyone follows the standard ;P 14:33:52 in fact, I'm not entirely convinced any do 14:33:53 why not just use DBI via Perl if you think it's such an interesting idea. 14:34:05 ais523, true 14:34:10 for instance, what quote characters mean what tends to vary a lot 14:34:12 but well, this is still funge 14:34:41 then make them use scke. 14:34:49 ais523, hm what about prepared statements? I don't know how standard they are, but surely they solve some of the issue? 14:34:52 because if you're just passing sql on, there's no point 14:34:56 AnMaster: some of the issue, yes 14:35:03 umm 14:35:05 make sure you allow for parameterised statements 14:35:07 so it's not even an SQL fingerprint any more 14:35:08 cool. 14:35:16 ehird: it's an interact-with-DB-driver fingerprint 14:35:26 having both SQL and prepared statements makes sense there 14:35:31 indeed 14:35:35 which is unneeded unless you abstract the queries. 14:35:41 because every server and its dog has a socket interface. 14:35:42 parameterised SQL, anyway, is useful for avoiding injections 14:35:50 ehird, not sqlite 14:35:51 ... 14:35:58 which is the one I'm most interested in 14:36:07 ais523, indeed 14:36:10 it makes much more sense to write "WHERE field = ?" and give an argument rather than trying to use string concatenation 14:36:17 also, I love SQL's use of ? for arguments 14:36:27 ais523, well some dbs allow WHERE field :namedparameter 14:36:28 or such 14:36:34 not sure how wide that support is 14:37:33 exactly 14:37:35 i wonder if there's a channel called #really-esoteric that is actually about esoteric programming ideas 14:37:39 SQL portability is a nightmare 14:37:53 ehird: this is about esolanging, although not a part of it that, say, you or oklopol would be interested in 14:37:57 ais523, well that is why abstracting the actual query would be very hard 14:38:01 AnMaster: yes 14:38:06 no, it's not about esoteric programming ideas 14:38:11 you'd have to invent your own nonportable unambiguous syntax for it 14:38:17 it is tangentially related to an esolang, but it's not an esoteric programming idea 14:38:26 I mean simple selects sure, but what about nested selects, with joins and sub queries and so on 14:38:34 ehird: the international hub for design, development and deployment of esoteric programming languages 14:38:37 this is deployment, IMO 14:39:02 ok, tell you what, i'll emulate #really-esoteric: someone tell me when we're talking about esoteric programming ideas. 14:39:03 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:39:50 Like languages with write-once-read-many memory? :-) 14:40:27 that might be esoteric, but needn't be 14:40:33 write-many-read-once would be more fun 14:41:00 I've actually had some thoughts along those lines 14:41:18 to create a lang which was as usable as possible, but deliberately sub-TC 14:41:27 Oh, and no instruction pointer. :-) 14:41:43 the idea would be that it would be impossible to write a nonterminating program, but apart from that it would be as usable as possible 14:41:51 ais523 : Just do a TC language and add to the specs "The memory is 10^80 bits" 14:41:51 Ilari: which lang are you thinking of, here? 14:42:05 Slereah_: yes, but in a less cheating way than that 14:42:10 besides, that fails for some things 14:42:17 it can't primality-check arbitrarily large numbers, for instance 14:42:20 whereas the lang I was thinking of could 14:43:20 Language which uses context-free grammar to guide lengthening of string (the extension candidates are matched to given context-free grammar on each step). 14:44:00 hmm... I find that in IP-less languages like Thue, I normally end up implementing an IP in order to program in them 14:44:37 Me too :-) 14:45:12 the AOL tags always seem to be redundant, because it always says "Me too" between them 14:45:17 maybe just would do 14:45:46 ais523: For language that can express P, you probably just need to prohibit backward jumps and superlinear looping... 14:46:05 my idea was basically that 14:46:21 but instead of prohibiting superlinear looping, to prohibit super-Ackermann looping 14:47:16 How you prohibit super-Ackermann looping? Something to do with primitive recursion? 14:47:42 What is "super ackermann looping"? 14:47:44 oh, much more boring than that, I was planning to just make the programmer use the Ackermann function to calculate the number of iterations 14:48:28 Slereah_: it's a loop which goes more times than an any Ackermann function whose arguments are the amount of input, and constants 14:48:37 Or having loop construct where loop bound is A(m.n), where m needs to be fixed? 14:48:51 pretty much 14:49:12 Actually, probably no need to fix m. Its finite anyway... 14:49:55 in fact, you could just put the Ackermann function in the standard library, use bignums, and require the programmer to specify the number of iterations of a loop in advance 14:50:10 you need the Ackermann function in the stdlib to be able to do that, or you can't implement the Ackermann function itself 14:51:25 -!- ehird has joined. 14:51:29 To be a hypocrite: 14:51:33 YES QT IS NOW UNDER THE LGPL 14:51:35 FUCK YEAH 14:51:45 ehird: why is that better than what they had before? 14:51:57 because it was either GPL or shell out money to them for a commercial license 14:52:01 no, it wasn't 14:52:05 and I like MIT 14:52:15 ais523: the QPL is viral too, iirc 14:52:18 it had a special exception allowing it to link with 14:52:25 o rly 14:52:26 and BSD was definitely one of them 14:52:32 MIT? 14:52:55 Well, OK, I didn't know that. But now it's obvious, and commercial apps can use it freely too. Which is nice. 14:53:29 In addition: 14:53:29 *Qt source code repositories will be made publicly available and will encourage contributions from desktop and embedded developer communities. 14:53:31 *Service offerings for Qt will be expanded to ensure that all Qt development projects can have access to the same levels of support, independent of the selected license. 14:53:34 nice. 14:53:36 ok, hypocrite over -> 14:53:38 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:54:13 Also, one could make language expressing most useful classes by allowing bounding loops by input fields... 14:54:26 Not just input field sizes. 14:55:01 strange, trolltech's own page on Qt licensing is currently a 404 14:55:07 -!- ehird has joined. 14:55:13 WHEN DID TROLLTECH RENAME TO QT SOFTWARE 14:55:15 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:55:22 -!- ehird has joined. 14:55:24 Ah, september 14:55:26 30th 14:55:27 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:56:00 Ilari: that's a linear bounded automaton, isn't it? 14:56:11 ah, only if the input's in unary 14:57:02 I think that would allow expressing all E+TIME classes... 14:57:16 Ilari: you're a lot more technical than me on these matters 15:00:55 BTW: Primality-checking arbitiary large numbers doesn't need loop superlinear in input size... :-) 15:01:07 no, but it does need an infinite amount of memory 15:02:16 Lack of loops superlinear in input size impiles bound on memory usage. 15:02:32 ... Growing with input size, of course. 15:02:33 only if there's a bound on the input 15:02:50 which is what I think I was trying to get at 15:03:13 Unbounded amount of memory is not the same thing as infinite amount of memory. 15:03:32 they come to the same thing from the programmer's point of view, though 15:03:38 at least, there's no way to tell them apart that I know of 15:07:10 I think that proving that some program can only use unbounded amount of memory is in AH-PI-2 (harder than halting problem). 15:08:24 I know there's more than one uncomputable computational class, but I don't know the names of any in particular 15:08:50 Aren't they just greek letters with superscripts? 15:09:07 but there's quite a difference between proving the program halts, and requiring the programmer to give a proof the program halts 15:09:07 the second can be done in the syntax of a langauge 15:09:15 AH-PI-2 is class of problems that are in co-RE if halting oracle is available. 15:09:35 what's it a halting oracle for? TC languages? 15:09:42 ais523: Yes. 15:10:12 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:10:43 hi FireFly 15:10:50 'lo 15:11:06 lots of people I don't recognise seem to have been turning up in #esoteric recently 15:11:14 that can only be a good thing, probably 15:11:28 Well, I've been lurking that esolang wiki for about half a year 15:11:34 Interesting stuff, really 15:11:38 definitely 15:11:58 You should see EsCo, too 15:12:01 although not all the langs are all that good, there are some real gems in there 15:12:01 It's awesome. 15:12:05 We all love it. 15:12:13 Slereah_: which one was EsCo again? And do I sense sarcasm? 15:12:40 EsCo was the Esoteric Compiler 15:12:54 For such diverse languages as Brainfuck, Spoon and Ook. 15:12:56 oh, it was that one that someone spammed to esolang 15:13:11 I'm sure the next bold move is an esme compiler. 15:13:18 don't mention esme, please 15:13:33 I still hope, deep down, it was a trolling attempt 15:13:37 because there's no other logical explanation 15:13:42 on the other hand, that makes it very esoteric, I suppose 15:14:34 and esco's apparently an interp, not a compiler 15:15:02 Logical names 'r' us? 15:15:20 let's see... it claims BF, Ook!, Spoon, HQ9+, Whitespace, Byter, and Befunge-93 15:15:35 not that bad a selection, although there are no "hard" esolangs there 15:15:49 and it's apparently an abbreviation for "EsotericCombined" 15:15:50 What's a "hard" esolang? 15:15:58 Slereah_: one that's hard to interpret/compile 15:16:08 I'd say Unlambda and INTERCAL are two good examples 15:16:10 Like the ANDREI MACHINE 9000? :o 15:16:20 I don't know. 15:16:39 Unlambda should be easily doable in a functional languages. 15:16:42 I'm not counting langs like TwoDucks which are theoretically impossible to interpret, of course 15:16:47 Slereah_: the problem in functional languages is d 15:16:51 Although I still don't know what continuation is. 15:16:52 although I think I've worked out a way around that 15:16:58 c is hard if you don't have call/cc already 15:17:09 anyway, I think Unlambda -> Underlambda is doable 15:17:14 Heh. 15:17:31 Or esolang that needs full-blown implmentation of CYK for execution? 15:17:36 CYK? 15:17:44 I worked out the trick for d -> pure-functional a while back 15:17:51 but deleted my notes on it, and the compiler I wrote, by mistake 15:17:57 and haven't reconstructed them yet 15:17:59 Also what's the theoretical machine behind INTERCAL again? 15:18:06 Slereah_: I'm not sure if it has a name 15:18:18 Well, where does it store informations 15:18:19 CLC-INTERCAL compiles to bytecode called ICBM that's specifically designed for INTERCAL 15:18:24 Algorithm to decide uniform language recognization for context-free grammars in polynomial time. 15:18:35 whereas C-INTERCAL compiles to C 15:18:39 (and from there to native code) 15:19:15 That is, given string x and context-free grammar L, it can decide wheiher x is in L in polynomial time. 15:19:55 most esolangs don't care about computational complexity 15:20:06 in fact, most practical langs don't 15:20:09 it might be nice to create one that did 15:20:10 We're all about the model, not the speed! 15:20:24 well, not always 15:20:32 cfunge is a nice counterexample 15:20:45 I don't know much of funge languages 15:20:49 -!- ehird has joined. 15:20:51 http://philosecurity.org/2009/01/12/interview-with-an-adware-author 15:20:52 Slereah_: it's nothing to do with the lang, just the interp 15:20:55 hypocrite -> 15:20:56 -!- ehird has left (?). 15:21:11 the interp is specifically designed for speed 15:21:28 because when you're having fun with esolangs, you may as well set extra challenges 15:21:34 like writing the world's fastest funge interp 15:21:50 (and then fizzie went and invented jitfunge, just for even more crazy-speed funge fun) 15:23:48 -!- ehird has joined. 15:23:50 07:12:40 EsCo was the Esoteric Compiler 15:23:52 esoteric _combine_ 15:23:58 they were naive interpreters 15:23:59 -!- ehird has left (?). 15:24:32 Combine? 15:24:42 Do they shoot you with lasguns? 15:24:57 -!- ehird has joined. 15:25:02 [16:24:20] Combine? 15:25:02 [16:24:30] Do they shoot you with lasguns? 15:25:04 i think it was that the interpreters were COMBINED together. 15:25:07 revolutionary -> 15:25:07 -!- ehird has left (?). 15:26:23 ehird: http://doc.trolltech.com/4.4/license-gpl-exceptions.html is the list of licences that pre-LGPL Qt could be linked with 15:26:25 MIT is on there 15:27:33 -!- ehird has joined. 15:27:35 S: In your professional opinion, how can people avoid adware? 15:27:36 M: Um, run UNIX. 15:27:38 S: [ laughs] 15:27:40 M: We did actually get the ad client working under Wine on Linux. 15:27:42 S: That seems like a bit of a stretch! 15:27:44 M: That was a pretty limited market, I’d say. 15:27:45 Also, that dude was writing in scheme, he can't be all bad. 15:27:46 -- that interview linked above 15:27:48 -> 15:27:49 ehird 15:27:50 -!- ehird has left (?). 15:27:54 Stop leaving like that 15:28:09 why don't we just set the channel to allow message from outside? 15:28:16 that way, ehird wouldn't have to join and part again to send messages 15:28:28 OTOH, ehird is obviously reading the logs, so just joining the channel would be easier 15:30:34 ehird, stop being the scourge of the world 15:36:54 ais523, hm was afk, what is the argument about? 15:37:10 there's no actual argument; just ehird keeps joining, saying stuff, and parting again 15:37:34 ais523, why? 15:37:46 no real idea 15:37:55 ok 15:38:52 Because he is the scourge of the earth. 15:39:05 ais523, also funge is not that easy to make fast, I mean 2D sparse array 15:39:16 linear address space is much simpler 15:39:25 yes 15:39:56 ais523, however that reminds me of a wild idea, I don't know if me or Deewiant had it first, anyway it happened when trying to understand what ehird meant with an idea for another fingerprint 15:40:05 paged memory in fungespace 15:40:11 so you can mmap a file into an area 15:40:33 ais523, add in some buzz words like DMA to non-funge world and such 15:40:48 DMA and funge? 15:40:55 that's great 15:41:03 ais523, anyway it would slow down normal operation because you would need to check if the coords would be into an mmaped area 15:41:26 also the file would need to be a raw file, couldn't care about stuff like newlines 15:41:28 AnMaster: are you focusing specifically on optimising fingerprints? or just on optimising core funge? 15:41:49 ais523, this idea? neither, because it would slow down normal operation 15:41:58 and it probably isn't sane 15:42:12 ais523, anyway I wouldn't want to spec it, just an idea I had 15:42:13 well, it's sane /enough/ 15:42:51 ais523, well, how would you avoid the overhead of checking a list of mappings to see if the access would be inside a mmaped() area in funge space on every funge space access 15:43:22 well, you'd only need to do it for p and g unless the IP went into the area 15:43:28 and you'd only need to do it if the fingerprint had been loaded 15:43:40 ais523, well other instructions that access too, lots of them in fingerprints 15:43:43 also I/O 15:43:45 and so on 15:43:50 err 15:43:51 i/o 15:44:23 ais523, but then you would need to check each time the IP moves to see if it is inside such an area 15:44:32 so not sure you could gain much 15:44:39 AnMaster: not each time the IP moved 15:44:43 hm? 15:44:46 just at every delta-changing or jumping instruction 15:44:55 you can project the IP's path the rest of the time 15:45:15 hm, this would be one thing that is easier in a JIT I believe 15:45:32 well, JITs need to do that anyway 15:45:42 exactly 15:46:08 doesn't mean you can't do it in a non-JIT 15:46:23 hm 15:47:39 -!- ehird has joined. 15:50:32 you know what sucks 15:50:32 ? 15:50:36 being tired. 15:51:23 people. 15:51:25 and everything 15:51:33 uhhuh? 15:52:12 i should probably do some algebra 15:52:39 x - 3 = 0 15:52:42 SOLVE 15:53:07 x=3 15:53:30 Slereah_: i don't have the time for your incredible puzzles right now. 15:53:53 Slereah_: (x-3) is not an lvalue 15:53:59 hm 15:54:20 ais523, postgres has an async SQL interface as well as a sync one 15:54:22 interesting 15:54:29 (for the fingerprint) 15:54:30 oooooooooooo 15:55:50 kkkkkkkkkkkk 15:56:21 eeeeeeeeeeee 15:57:09 yyyyyyyyyy 15:57:32 yay not even matched count 15:58:40 or wait, ehird uses a variable width font, he probably didn't see that we all used same length of the lines 15:58:51 no, I don' tuse a variable width font 15:58:52 and you didn't 15:58:55 15:54 oooooooooooo 15:58:55 15:55 kkkkkkkkkkkk 15:58:56 15:56 eeeeeeeeeeee 15:58:58 account for nicks, bums 15:59:03 ehird: no 15:59:16 besides, some clients right-justify nicks 15:59:23 ehird, well I right-align nicks to column 12 or so 15:59:42 * ehird switches to a variable-width font 15:59:54 delicious. 16:00:15 AnMaster: I actually spent the effort counting oklopol's os 16:00:20 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 16:00:43 Variable-with fonts and some versions of xterm don't mix (the results look hideous)... 16:00:43 ais523, I just copied, went to start, pressed Insert key to enter overwriting mode and pressed e until the end :P 16:00:55 Ilari: I don't use a console IRC client. 16:00:55 AnMaster: that's cheating 16:01:04 because I have a GUI environment :P 16:01:07 although this client doesn't have the insert/overwrite toggling 16:01:07 ais523, no that is solving it in the simplest possible way 16:01:18 no that is cheating 16:01:27 ehird: nothing prevents you right-justifying nicks in a GUI environment... 16:01:36 ais523: fail 16:01:36 16:00 Variable-with fonts and some versions of xterm don't mix (the results look hideous)... 16:02:03 ehird: oh, miseed the context 16:02:07 ais523, indeed, I'm using a GUI client on the bouncer atm, well two clients in fact 16:02:16 * AnMaster was trying out conspire 16:02:27 seems like "a slightly less sucking xchat" 16:02:46 its an xchat fork. 16:03:15 ehird, yes I know 16:03:26 I am using futura. I feel FUTURAstic. 16:03:38 well I much prefer ERC over conspire 16:03:59 but well, I prefer trying stuff before I dismiss them. :) 16:04:15 Optima looks weird. 16:04:24 ehird, is that a font? 16:04:28 typeface. 16:04:36 HELLO FROM ZAPFINO 16:04:40 how does font differ from typeface? 16:05:03 A font is the computerized representation of one variation (regular, bold etc) of a typeface. 16:05:17 Or, you know, the metal-ized representation, if you're oldsk00l. 16:05:43 ehird, ah yes, my old pal Gutenberg liked that a lot 16:06:10 You knew Johannes Gutenberg? 16:06:11 Oldsk00l 16:06:20 ehird, ~ 16:06:29 PAPYRUS! Next up: COMIC SANS! 16:06:34 ouch 16:06:45 COMIC SANS MS! The OFFICIAL FONT of #ESOTERIC! 16:06:50 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:06:50 argh 16:06:53 :< 16:07:12 ehird, what about that MS chat thingy 16:07:16 ehird, that would be even worse 16:07:23 Code2000! 16:07:37 ehird, I mean using it, in comics mode 16:07:49 I'm ignoring you :D 16:07:55 ehird, well I would hate it 16:08:18 no, it's great 16:08:24 MS Chat is the best irc client eve 16:08:25 r 16:08:59 ehird, I'm quite sure you forgot the ~ 16:09:10 no 16:09:11 very serious 16:11:20 "YouTube Now Mutes Videos With Unauthorized Copyrighted Music" 16:11:21 lollllllll 16:11:21 http://mashable.com/2009/01/14/youtube-mutes-videos/ 16:11:49 * AnMaster looks 16:12:13 Gay 16:12:33 ouch 16:14:23 in what way is it muted? 16:14:42 I mean, just in the GUI or in the actual file? 16:14:49 Iunno 16:14:53 Go and find out! 16:14:58 i think it forces the mute in the gui 16:14:59 but not the file 16:15:54 ehird, seems to be in the file, I just tried with youtube-dl to get the .flv 16:16:00 of one of the examples 16:16:02 well, that makes more sense :P 16:16:36 ehird, well true 16:31:41 ais523, about quoting, what about S = Escape string for query 16:31:48 iirc several DB interfaces has such 16:31:59 AnMaster: no no no 16:32:08 don't do escaping then inserting strings, that way injections lie 16:32:09 ais523, ok prepared is better yes 16:32:14 use parametrised queries, or prepared statements 16:32:42 ais523, well at least sqlite only allow parametrised queries with prepared statements iirc 16:32:57 but it was a while since I last used that API 16:36:26 ais523, I'm reading up on three DBs when making this interface: PostgreSQL, SQLite and MySQL. To make sure it is reasonably portable 16:36:50 if you know any other open source SQL database that may be of interest, tell me 16:37:18 (and before anyone ask: why open source only?: I don't plan to pay for oracle to make sure it is compatible) 16:37:25 oracle has a free edition. 16:37:43 i think it needs like 4gb of ram though. 16:37:52 ehird, I have 1.5 in this system 16:37:56 so tough luck 16:38:01 that was an exaggeration 16:38:26 anyway from what I heard oracle is quite similar to postgres in many aspects 16:38:51 oracle is pretty terrible from what i've seen. 16:39:07 mhm 16:40:00 well if you can do simple stuff like: query, get row at a time, start/end/roll back transactions, connect/disconnect, get error code/message related to last error it should be fine 16:40:29 what interest me more is how to integrate the postgresql async interface easily 16:40:32 it would be cool 16:40:38 wow, this is so boring 16:40:50 well everything isn't about you all the time 16:41:19 how ironic 16:43:13 grrrrr fuck people who talk about useless use of cat. 16:43:21 its a bloody unix pipeline. it makes sense like that. 16:43:41 ehird, well doing cat foo | grep bar makes no sense 16:43:44 grep bar foo 16:43:46 makes much more sense 16:43:46 grrrr 16:43:48 kill yourself 16:43:54 um? 16:43:55 it makes perfect effing sense 16:44:00 why? 16:44:06 no, why doesn't it? 16:44:11 you're catting the file, then grepping that 16:44:16 you read unix pipelines left to right 16:44:21 that makes _perfect_ sense 16:44:21 grepping a file makes more sense 16:44:24 :) 16:44:31 No? 16:44:37 ehird, "can not create process: limit exceeded" 16:44:41 makes a lot of sense too 16:44:49 yeah because that cat is going to linger there forever 16:44:52 and you can only run 5 processes 16:44:53 total 16:44:57 before your machine crashes 16:44:58 I feel for you 16:45:09 ehird, because you can hit the limit on a lot of shell servers quickly 16:45:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:45:26 yes. adding an extra cat to a pipeline will be _fatal_ 16:45:44 ehird, sometimes it will break stuff yes. Like I described 16:45:45 BeholdMyGlory: are you AnMaster, or do we have two Arvids on this channel? 16:45:54 ais523, two people 16:45:55 AnMaster: uh huh. sure. 16:46:00 we established that yesterday 16:59:47 The people on the Tubes must chip in and make an alternative to You Tube, it's not that expensive. The company must be based somewhere outside USA and it should be owned by at least 1 Mil guys so it will be never sold to any big company. 16:59:49 --reddit 17:00:26 ehird: you'd have to make a distributed version, somehow 17:00:37 ok ais523 i ask you one thing 17:00:44 1 million's about the population of Birmingham, so it seems a bit excessive 17:00:44 when i quote someone stupid for no particular reason 17:00:48 please stop responding seriously 17:01:01 ehird: in that case, you've missed the joke 17:01:13 it's more that the joke is turning me into a gibbering wreck 17:09:36 wow, zzo38 doesn't get open source 17:09:37 Most of the new files added to Vonkeror are now licensed by GNU GPL v3 or 17:09:38 later version (it is permitted because the LGPL v2.1 permits it). I am 17:09:40 making a exception: Anyone who is making Conkeror software may relicense 17:09:42 under the Conkeror license, in order to be added into Conkeror. Anyone 17:09:44 can remove this exception from your own copy of the codes if they want 17:09:46 to, but it is not required to remove this exception. However, this 17:09:48 exception only grants additional permission to the workers of Conkeror. 17:09:50 itt: vaguest shit ever 17:09:52 who the hell is a worker of conkeror 17:10:19 1* Select odd/even row of tables using [_even] and [_odd] CSS selectors 17:10:20 well, it's certainly legit to make a GPL3 fork of an LGPL2.1+ project 17:10:24 not that that is generally sensible 17:10:25 itt: zzo38 is microsoft 2.0 17:10:33 ais523: i mean the relicensing clause 17:10:50 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/vonkeror/screenshots/screenshot_001.png Impressively ugly. 17:11:05 ehird: that sort of thing is relatively common, just worded better 17:11:13 ais523: conkeror is OPEN SOURCE 17:11:14 in fact, it reminds me of the actually correct version of the wording 17:11:16 everyone is a "worker" of it 17:11:20 there's no people actually "in" conkeror 17:11:26 ehird: yes, I know 17:11:31 the problem's with who the exception is given to 17:11:41 but legally speaking, it can be given to any set of people and the licence still works 17:12:08 doesn't mean the reclicensing works 17:12:25 Tax bracket system should work differently, which is that for example if $0.01 to $200.00 is 0% and $200.01 to $400.00 is 10% and if you earn $300.00 then you should pay $10.00 in taxes, not $30.00 (note that my numbers are just examples, these actual numbers are stupid but the idea has to do with how the calculations are done, not the actual rates used) 17:12:27 Maybe that is unclear. But maybe if I write it in Javascript then it will be easier to understand? Or maybe not. I will write in Javascript anyways. 17:12:38 this guy is like a troll minus the troll 17:12:50 he's impossible to understand and often slightly clueless, except minus the frustration 17:12:57 and he's just writing on his blog nowadays so he isn't even talking to anyon 17:12:57 e 17:33:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:37:43 when i quote someone stupid for no particular reason please stop responding seriously <-- you aren't that nice when I do it... 17:38:00 he does it less often. 17:38:54 good point ehird 17:39:16 ehird: I respond seriously only when it's actually funny 17:39:32 or when, in this case, I don't think the comment is as stupid as you think it is (yet, of course, still stupid) 17:41:29 i wonder where chris pressey works 17:41:43 i wouldn't be surprised if he somehow makes money out of cats eye, due to the expanse of http://catseye.tc/projects/ 17:46:05 yep 17:46:06 Established by Chris Pressey in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, and now located in Vancouver, British Columbia, Cat's Eye Technologies has provided custom software development and consulting services since 1995. Our clients have included Manitoba Health, Star Building Materials, Morrison Homes, and Samkoma.com. 17:46:30 it's pretty amazing that a genuine company has a whole esolang win 17:46:32 *wing 17:46:40 especially one so famous 17:47:30 well, it's just one guy :P 17:47:44 who does freelancing work. and happens to have an esolang hobby. 17:49:16 http://catseye.tc/about/php.html 17:49:30 the last paragraph is priceless 17:49:41 especially since it's a real error 17:50:38 "Perl is what happens when you play Katamari Damacy with the Unix toolchain. This condition has been less gracefully described, by others, as "being a steaming heap." " 17:50:40 http://catseye.tc/about/perl.html 17:50:41 how do you know it's a real error? 17:50:46 ais523: the source code 17:50:51 the linebreak and everything 17:50:54 is exactly the same 17:50:54 is it linked from the page? 17:51:08 Too bad it wasn't line 404 17:51:18 I do like the idea of playing Katamari Damacy with the UNIX toolchain, though 17:51:18 but 17:51:20 /internal/directory/structure/home/website/include/oh_drat.php 17:51:23 that's obviously fake 17:51:28 Propably 17:51:31 so i guess he caused a php error 17:51:33 then copied the code 17:51:40 and modified it 17:51:47 I'd say Unlambda and INTERCAL are two good examples 17:51:58 oerjan: of esolangs which are hard to compile/interpret 17:52:03 unlambda is easy if you think in terms of graph rewriting 17:52:04 as opposed to BF, which is easy 17:52:20 oerjan: I suppose rewriting langs would be good at d 17:52:23 how good are they at c? 17:52:32 OTOH, actually writing a graph rewriting lang in the first place is nontrivial 17:52:39 you use CPS style, of course 17:52:41 I want to write an unlambda->efficient c compiler 17:52:49 it isn't self-modifying is it? 17:52:54 ehird: not exactly 17:53:01 but d makes it self-resemanticising 17:53:29 can't you just track d tags and pass thunks to d-tainted functions? 17:53:35 to be efficient on non-D using code 17:53:44 oh, I'm sure there are tricks that work 17:53:46 it's just nontrivial 17:54:01 as for c, if you're using CPS you need to do garbage collection of continuations somehow 17:54:17 cheney on the mta 17:54:20 actually by graph rewriting i mean little more than ML/haskell style ADTs with pattern matching 17:54:26 ais523: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/CheneyMTA.html 17:54:26 basically 17:54:33 oerjan: that's what I was thinking of too 17:54:34 you convert to cps 17:54:35 you allocate everything on the stack 17:54:38 and you use regular c function calls 17:54:41 then 17:54:42 I normally use Thutu for that sort of thing 17:54:42 to gc 17:54:45 you do a longjmp 17:54:49 or even more fun, recursive Perl regexen 17:54:51 to clear the cstack 17:54:51 ais523: oh, the point is the continuations can _also_ be done as such structures 17:54:52 *c stack 17:55:05 it's a generational garbage collector that's really insanely fast beacuse you just call c functions and allocate on the stack 17:55:13 it's a piece of art 17:55:28 you get efficient allocation, function calls, continuations and GC, almost for free. 17:56:10 hmm... it depends on longjmp/alloca 17:56:14 no 17:56:20 presumably using alloca precisely because it plays well with longjmp 17:56:21 it doesn't depend on alloca inherently 17:56:26 although most of the time you want to use it 17:56:29 but their example doesn't 17:56:31 it's how it handles dynamic-size data 17:56:32 it is _all_ stack-allocated 17:56:37 alloca is stack allocation 17:56:45 please stop talking to me like I don't know C 17:56:46 read their example program 17:56:48 I suppose you could use VLAs, but VLA + longjmp = madness 17:56:59 http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/cboyer13.c 17:57:02 grep for alloca( 17:57:44 ehird: probably it just doesn't have any dynamic-sized data structures, so doesn't need it 17:57:50 yes. 17:57:53 I'd go for VLAs. 17:57:54 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 17:57:55 sure, its madness 17:57:58 but it'd work no 17:57:58 ? 17:58:22 of course, alloca would be about as well-supported, easier to code, and more sane. 17:58:36 I'm not certain that longjmp + VLA is guaranteed to do anything in particular 18:00:49 * ehird decides to write some perl 18:01:15 unlambda-compiling perl to be specific 18:02:09 guess what i'm going to do to be esoteric 18:02:22 CPS? 18:02:27 that's esoteric in Perl 18:02:48 nope 18:02:57 write my own object system. 18:04:02 :D 18:04:23 i recall the bundled perl interpreter in the unlambda distribution was rather slow 18:04:35 as in, my INTERCAL interpreter was faster than it :D 18:04:39 XD 18:04:43 this will compile unl to semi-efficient c 18:05:38 oerjan: oh dear 18:05:52 well, C-INTERCAL is designed to be not inherently slow 18:05:59 not like cfunge-fast 18:06:04 but as in, it won't deliberately slow you down 18:06:13 also it doesn't give a runtime penalty for features you aren't using 18:06:33 i thought that was a C++ mantra 18:06:35 ais523 isn't nearly shocked enough :( 18:07:04 oerjan: well, C++ is like that too 18:07:14 but on the other hand, other langs do give a penalty for features you aren't using 18:07:18 so we had to choose one or the other 18:07:45 of course there's an excuse, the perl interpreter was a debugger too 18:07:55 that isn't really an excuse 18:08:01 debuggers shouldn't give much of a runtime penalty either 18:08:07 IIRC, even yuk doesn't slow programs down much 18:08:34 anyway, there's a huge bug in the C-INTERCAL profiler atm 18:08:35 hmm, what's the perl prototype that makes the {...} passed to the function be a sub {...}? 18:09:25 & 18:09:30 thx 18:09:31 wait, you're messing with prototypes? 18:09:33 yay 18:09:36 :DD 18:09:37 that's eso from the start 18:09:43 ais523: it uses prototypes to implement a prototypical object system 18:09:44 :DDD 18:11:17 ais523: can you make an anonymous sub run in a certain scope? 18:11:21 i.e., inject variables into it and stuff 18:11:46 ehird: yes 18:11:53 how :D 18:11:54 as long as the sub doesn't try to declare the variables itself 18:12:22 you make sure the variables haven't been lexically scoped when the anon sub has been declared 18:12:38 they need to be lexical inside the scope of the anon sub 18:12:41 they mustn't be inside a my at any level, you have to be aiming at the globals when the sub was declared 18:12:48 then, you use local inside the block that calls the sub 18:12:51 via eval if necessary 18:13:13 hrm, actually I'll just do it like the rest of perl's oo system 18:13:16 you can use local anywhere without interfering with this, it was deprecated in favour of my because my was saner 18:13:32 but local, being insaner, is better for implementing that sort of insane scheme 18:13:40 my $Rectangle = $Object->clone { 18:13:41 sub cloned { 18:13:42 my ($self, $w, $h) = @_; 18:13:44 $self->width = $w; $self->height = $h; 18:13:46 return $self; 18:13:48 } 18:13:50 }; 18:14:08 now to get that to run 18:14:27 oops, first line should be 18:14:28 my $Rectangle = $Object->clone->do { 18:14:40 * ais523 tries to remember the last time they saw a perl variable that started with a capital letter 18:14:44 for some reason, that just Doesn't Happen 18:14:56 :-) 18:15:20 hmm 18:15:25 does #include "__FILE__" work in C? 18:15:26 it should 18:15:41 er 18:15:42 sans quotes 18:15:44 #include __FILE__ 18:15:46 I think it works without the quotes 18:15:58 although it isn't guaranteed to, it will on most cpps 18:16:00 ais523: here's what i'll do in the underload compilation: 18:16:13 #ifndef _UNDERLOAD_HEADER 18:16:17 (it isn't guaranteed because #include isn't guaranteed to work on non-standard-headers, e.g. if you don't have a filesystem) 18:16:19 argh 18:16:20 OI 18:16:24 stop ruining my paste 18:16:25 [[ 18:16:28 #ifndef _UNDERLOAD_HEADER 18:16:30 #define _UNDERLOAD_HEADER 18:16:32 #include __FILE__ 18:16:33 if you don't want people to ruin your pastes, use a pastebin 18:16:38 besides, it's still readable anyway 18:16:40 i'm writing it as I go 18:16:42 so here I start again 18:16:43 [[ 18:16:45 #ifndef _UNDERLOAD_HEADER 18:16:47 #define _UNDERLOAD_HEADER 18:16:49 #include __FILE__ 18:16:54 #undef _UNDERLOAD_HEADER 18:16:59 (HERE GOES UNDERLOAD CODE) 18:17:00 #else 18:17:03 it's not as if you're using telnet, surely other people's comments don't interfere with typing? 18:17:04 (BORING HEADER BOILERPLATE) 18:17:05 #endif 18:17:06 ]] 18:17:08 I can still read it 18:17:18 i.e., it hides the boring boilerplate definitions at the bottom of the file 18:17:23 while still letting them be used in the top of the file 18:17:25 Underload, or Unlambda? 18:17:34 unlambda, but whatever 18:17:40 that's irrelevant to the trick :P 18:17:47 ehird: please, they're as different as Java and JavaScript 18:17:50 well, almost 18:17:57 they're irrelevant _to the trick_ 18:19:15 1 million's about the population of Birmingham, so it seems a bit excessive <-- is that the official UK definition of excessive? 18:19:32 wow this fingerprint spec is quite large 18:19:38 oerjan: no, but it may as well be 18:19:39 it is already 200 lines, and far from complete 18:19:41 AnMaster: which fingerprint? 18:19:42 say, does perl have a built-in exception handling system? 18:19:47 IFFI's about that long, but complete IIRC 18:19:48 ais523, SQL (3 letter yes) 18:19:49 ehird: yes 18:19:54 o rly 18:19:58 it's eval {} for try {} (note, not eval "") 18:20:00 and die for throw 18:20:08 catch is done using one of the weirdly named variables 18:20:14 probably $@, but I might be wrong on that 18:20:16 okay, ummm, how do you have different types of exceptions there :DD 18:20:33 ehird: I'm not sure offhand if you can throw anything but a string 18:20:39 ais523, what language is this? 18:20:40 but if you can, you can just use isa on the object to see what it is 18:20:42 AnMaster: Perl 18:20:43 AnMaster: perl 18:20:45 ah 18:20:54 okay so 18:20:54 eval { 18:20:58 blah 18:21:00 } or { 18:21:04 ... stuff with $@ ... 18:21:04 } 18:21:05 :D 18:21:11 huh 18:21:18 ehird, that is perl's exception handling? 18:21:24 seems a bit unusual 18:21:27 essentially. 18:21:30 AnMaster: this is Perl we're talking about 18:21:32 it just lets you recover from a die "foo" 18:21:38 all its features were bolted onto the core as simply as possible 18:21:38 ah 18:21:40 *possibly 18:21:43 because eval { } will be false when it dies 18:21:48 which is why objects are basically just sugar for stuff 18:21:48 so you can use or on it with a code block 18:21:51 and the die string is put in $@ 18:21:53 ehird, heh 18:22:01 ehird: I think the block might have to end with 1; for that to work 18:22:04 ehird, does this work for language errors, say division by zero 18:22:10 but then, Perl modules have to end like that for the same reason 18:22:11 AnMaster: maybe. 18:22:12 AnMaster: yes 18:22:16 hm ok 18:22:18 although it throws a string in that case 18:22:31 you can use ref $@ to see if it's a string or not 18:22:38 does perl have an empty package built in? 18:22:42 like BLANK or something 18:22:53 not that I know of 18:23:02 um 18:23:02 although some, like strict or warnings, are very simple 18:23:10 because they just set flags that the compiler reads 18:23:21 what, you thought use strict; was a compiler directive? 18:23:28 wouldn't $@ be argv? 18:23:33 AnMaster: no. 18:23:36 oh ok 18:23:37 AnMaster: no, that's @ARGV 18:23:41 ah 18:23:50 what made you think it would be $@? 18:23:53 well perl is often close to shell I noted... 18:23:58 so it wasn't such a bad guess 18:24:13 AnMaster: it's a mix of C, shell, and sed 18:24:16 which explains a lot 18:24:18 ais523, yes true 18:24:44 ais523, what about awk? 18:24:54 oh, that too 18:25:00 although that's more use English; than default 18:28:48 ais523, eh? 18:29:05 AnMaster: use English; imports awk-like variable names 18:29:22 um ok... 18:29:25 * ais523 wonders vaguely if awkwards is the opposite direction to sedwards 18:30:09 18:28 tomboy64 has left IRC ("This connection was severed because the sys-admin has been abducted by aliens and is now being tortured in the most pleasurab) 18:30:41 ais523, so what would this awk script be in perl http://rafb.net/p/DOu9SY23.html ? 18:30:49 try awk2perl. 18:30:52 it will tell you. 18:31:14 ehird, I'm not sure if this is gawk specific or not since I have no other awk here 18:31:23 try it and see. 18:31:36 ehird, also what package is awk2perl? 18:31:39 a2p(1) 18:31:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:31:45 if you have perl you have it 18:31:52 ah right 18:31:56 tried the full name 18:32:01 output looks correct to m 18:32:01 e 18:33:03 AnMaster: http://rafb.net/p/fw7OUJ65.html 18:33:10 that was a2p 18:33:12 yeah because he is unable to run program 18:33:12 s 18:33:21 hm 18:33:26 I was running it locally 18:33:27 ... 18:33:27 ehird: well, jumped to running a2p before that conversation started 18:33:33 and only just saw your descriptions 18:33:42 a2p is surprisingly competent 18:33:48 ehird: it generated the line $[=1 18:33:52 * AnMaster waits for ehird to say he is sorry for that comment above to ais523 18:33:54 which is very very deprecated in modern Perl 18:34:03 who cares about modern perl 18:34:05 AnMaster: what? 18:34:14 ehird: it's more or less gets-level deprecation 18:34:19 ais523: so? 18:34:23 it doesn't automatically give everyone an evil handle to take over your computer 18:34:24 if it works, it works 18:34:25 but it's close 18:34:26 yeah because he is unable to run program s ehird: well, jumped to running a2p before that conversation started and only just saw your descriptions oops, sorry 18:34:33 that is what I expected but didn't see 18:34:34 well what is $] 18:34:40 ehird: the version number 18:34:47 $[ is the base of arrays 18:34:54 as in, normally arrays are zero-based 18:34:58 $[=1; makes them one-based 18:35:02 ouch 18:35:03 no one sane would make $] be a version number 18:35:07 but changing the value causes chaos 18:35:09 AnMaster: why not? 18:35:12 it was unused 18:35:13 AnMaster: um, I made a mistake. do I have to point that out to everyone? 18:35:19 i mean, he said he did it before the conversation 18:35:21 so that's that 18:35:37 apparently they chose it based on a bad pun, so people would remember it more easily 18:35:42 ais523, well it makes no sense, I mean reserve the namespace $PERL_ or such and have $PERL_VERSION 18:35:43 "Is this version of Perl within the right bracket?" 18:35:58 AnMaster: that's longer. 18:36:01 *groan* 18:36:04 ehird, yes and? 18:36:06 more readable? 18:36:09 AnMaster: there you go. 18:36:17 [19:35:03] no one sane would make $] be a version number <-- Last time I checked, we were in #esoteric 18:36:18 it's perfectly readable to anyone who knows perl 18:36:19 and they do have a reserved namespace, it's dollar followed by punctuation marks or control codes 18:36:21 The insaner, the better 18:36:22 and makes hacking up scripts easy 18:36:26 FireFly: wow, you caught on already 18:36:31 don't worry, AnMaster is always like this 18:36:33 ;P 18:37:02 ais523, well, what if they one day need more than the amount of punctuation marks or control codes 18:37:16 they have already, but they didn't run out 18:37:23 oh? 18:37:33 you can have variable names which start with a control code and are followed by normal letters 18:37:40 written as ${^Variable}, for instance 18:37:45 where ^V is either a literal control-V 18:37:52 or the separate characters ^V 18:37:54 to make it easier to type 18:37:56 ais523, also that awk script was a lot nicer 18:38:00 than the generated perl code 18:38:01 it's stored internally as a literal control-V, though 18:38:07 omg machine compiled code 18:38:07 is 18:38:08 but I assume you could make the perl code nicer 18:38:08 and of course it was, written code > generated code 18:38:08 ugly!! 18:38:11 more or less always 18:38:13 call the PRESS 18:38:29 but I assume you could make the perl code nicer omg machine compiled code is ugly!! 18:38:32 that is what I said yes 18:38:33 ... 18:38:48 everyone types instantly, and network lag does not exist 18:38:52 the Perl isn't that bad, though, apart from it's missing idiomatic abbreviations for if/else 18:38:59 which makes it much vertically longer than it ought to be 18:39:04 ehird, well you could wait a few seconds before over reacting 18:39:07 that would work too 18:39:16 it's called sarcasm 18:39:18 not overrreacting 18:39:31 ehird, it seemed like you were attacking me? 18:39:41 no 18:39:49 i was responding sarcastically to comments I considered ridiculous. 18:40:25 ais523, well it uses next line; instead of a switch or elseif or whatever, because each of those ends so it will never execute the next one 18:40:31 guess that is a special case 18:40:59 AnMaster: there is no switch in perl, but an if/elsif chain would have made more sense 18:41:03 just a2p isn't trying to optimise that case 18:41:13 or even a ?: chain would have worked there 18:41:24 ais523, true. would local($dir, $CC, $bits, $GC, $THR) = @_; detect missing parameters? 18:41:25 (actually, I lied, there is a switch in Perl but it's really new and hasn't caught on yet) 18:41:51 as in error out, or warn on missing parameters 18:41:54 AnMaster: not without warnings on 18:41:56 probably not even then 18:41:58 it would just assign undef 18:42:03 ais523, well the original awk code would 18:42:10 you can check easily enough using @_ == 5 18:42:13 too few parameters 18:42:14 just a2p neglected that check 18:42:18 ais523, right 18:43:01 ais523, I don't understand the logic for the check if $running_under_some_shell; at the top 18:43:15 AnMaster: that's for systems on which #! doesn't work 18:43:18 AnMaster: it's a hack 18:43:22 in shell, the next line won't be executed 18:43:24 think about what the code does in sh 18:43:27 but in perl, it's waiting for the end of the statement 18:43:29 hm 18:43:30 and that if makes it never run 18:43:34 AnMaster: x if y; 18:43:34 in perl 18:43:35 is 18:43:37 if y { x } 18:43:39 it is, in fact, a Perl/sh polyglot 18:43:39 well 18:43:41 if (y) { x } 18:43:49 which reinvokes the program under Perl if it's running in sh 18:43:51 ais523, heh 18:43:54 ais523, oh? 18:43:55 hence the slightly weird phrasing 18:44:01 ah 18:44:03 right 18:44:13 ais523, that assumes perl is in /usr/bin however 18:44:22 I think /usr/bin/env perl would be more portable 18:44:23 no 18:44:25 it's often done with /usr/bin/env 18:44:27 it uses the perl you have on your system 18:44:33 in my case I get 18:44:34 #!/opt/local/bin/perl 18:44:35 eval 'exec /opt/local/bin/perl -S $0 ${1+"$@"}' 18:44:37 if $running_under_some_shell; 18:44:37 ah 18:44:38 ah, of course 18:44:41 AnMaster: you're not meant to distribute these scripts, ofc 18:44:42 right 18:44:43 it's object code 18:45:01 well then I would surely use the local awk on my system 18:45:09 not everyone has gawk 18:45:18 not everyone _wants_ gawk 18:45:20 ehird, well it could be portable awk 18:45:25 whatever 18:45:25 I just haven't tried it 18:45:29 AnMaster: a2p is useful for porting scripts over 18:45:31 since it is a local one off script 18:45:38 it runs as object code out of the box as a proof-of-concept 18:45:42 and lets you hack it up afterward 18:45:42 s 18:46:00 ehird, it supports gawk extensions? 18:46:07 i don't know 18:51:26 " For aesthetic reasons you may wish to change the array base $[ from 1 back to perl’s default of 0, but remember to change all array subscripts AND all substr() 18:51:26 and index() operations to match." 18:51:28 from man page 18:52:21 heh 18:52:27 I see why they set $[ 18:52:31 oh? 18:52:34 it's more than just aesthetic reasons, though 18:52:41 why? 18:52:45 really, you don't want to force an array index of 1 onto all the other code you link it with 18:52:53 well true 18:52:55 although they have a fix for that in recent versions, it's hacky 18:53:05 ais523, why do they set $[ then? 18:53:44 AnMaster: to avoid having to wrap all the indexing operations in the whole program 18:53:51 For efficiency, you may wish to remove the keyword from any return statement that is the last statement executed in a subroutine. A2p catches the most common 18:53:51 case, but doesn’t analyze embedded blocks for subtler cases. 18:53:52 wut? 18:53:53 the thing about Perl is it's good for large programs and short one-off scripts 18:53:56 but in different ways 18:54:08 AnMaster: hmm... that shouldn't affect efficiency nowadays 18:54:11 a2p must be really old 18:54:15 ais523, what keyword? 18:54:17 I don't gt it 18:54:19 AnMaster: return 18:54:19 get* 18:54:25 you can write 4; instead of return 4; 18:54:29 at the end of a procedure 18:54:32 err 18:54:37 ah 18:54:40 http://fichiers.asibasth.com/images/conneries/divers/Programmer_Superiority.jpg 18:54:41 shouldn't affect efficiency apart from the time it takes to parse the return keyword, though 18:55:58 ais523, what is $, = ' '; about? 18:56:12 AnMaster: separator for print statements 18:56:19 ah right 18:56:38 print "a", "b", "c"; is equivalent to print "a$,b$,c$/"; 18:56:45 except that the second one would actually print $/ twice, as it's implicit 18:56:49 ais523, anyway how do you set input separator? because the call to the script did that with -F iirc 18:56:56 $/ 18:57:03 mhm 18:57:04 although that can't be a regex in Perl, and it can be in awk 18:57:18 oh it can in awk? nice 18:57:28 I shall certainly remember it, will be useful 18:58:07 BUGS 18:58:08 It would be possible to emulate awk’s behavior in selecting string versus numeric operations at run time by inspection of the operands, but it would be gross 18:58:08 and inefficient. Besides, a2p almost always guesses right. 18:58:08 Storage for the awk syntax tree is currently static, and can run out. 18:58:13 heh at the latter 18:58:25 AUTHOR 18:58:25 Larry Wall 18:58:35 why's that notable? 18:59:52 ehird, what? the strange bug about using static storage? 18:59:58 no, the author 19:00:18 ehird, well wikipedia has an article on him so I guess he is notable? 19:00:23 * oerjan swats ehird -----### 19:00:27 but why is it notable that he wrote a2p 19:00:31 why did you quote that block 19:00:34 HOW DARE YOU INSULT THE GREAT LARRY WALL 19:00:35 AnMaster: he's notable for writing Perl 19:00:40 so writing a2p too is hardly surprising 19:00:43 ais523, indeed 19:00:49 that's like calling me notable for writing convickt 19:00:56 ais523, oh yes you are 19:01:02 not for that reason, though 19:01:20 ais523, well after looking at convickt code I would say: very notable for that 19:01:26 also notorious 19:03:44 Just to put this into perspective, I never use getopt, either in C or in perl. 19:03:44 I suppose this could be construed as a character flaw. 19:03:45 —Larry Wall, Dec 1989 19:03:57 um 19:04:05 there are lots of good Larry Wall quotes 19:04:09 ehird, "put what in perspective" 19:04:14 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.perl/browse_thread/thread/4bda45c06e872fef/86586c72bf0ddc18#86586c72bf0ddc18 19:04:29 the one about real programmers not needing backups, but instead persuade the whole Internet to mirror their work, I think is quite insightful 19:04:58 backing up a gpg-encrypted drive image via thepiratebay could work, if you bundle parts of it with illegal material 19:05:12 I remember once I uploaded a computer game to the pirate bay -- skip ahead a year, I can't find my disc. 19:05:19 So I download my own copy from everyone else. 19:05:27 that was quite silly 19:06:35 ehird, hah 19:07:27 ehird, also isn't the pirate pay just a torrent searcher, not a tracker? 19:07:30 I'm no expert.. 19:07:34 both. 19:07:37 oh ok 19:07:43 it's a tracker that provides a search facility for the torrents it tracks 19:07:52 ehird, and not for other's torrents? 19:08:00 err grammar fail 19:08:10 No. Sites like torrentz.com aggregate torrent trackers into a search engine. 19:08:14 ah 19:08:20 though tpb was like that too 19:08:21 oh well 19:09:14 hmm 19:09:18 I wonder if bless {}, NULL will work in perl 19:09:20 #!/usr/local/bin/perl 19:09:21 do 'getopt.pl'; 19:09:23 wtf is that? 19:09:29 AnMaster: that would run the script getopt.pl 19:09:30 isn't it use getopt? or something 19:09:31 i.e., like a load 19:09:33 ah 19:09:36 and this is from _1989_ 19:09:40 ah true 19:09:46 so it is probably a module nowdays? 19:09:49 yes 19:09:56 perl was only 2 years old back then, and had only been public i think for like a year 19:09:59 modules didn't exist back then? 19:10:05 unlikely 19:10:08 ok 19:14:38 hee, I found the torrent 19:14:45 seeder 0, leechers 1 :( 19:14:50 hm 19:15:04 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:15:10 how to represent NULL in funge? as in NULL from SQL 19:15:11 ais523, ^ 19:15:38 AnMaster: hmm... are you mostly dealing with string data? 19:15:55 ais523, um? as in type of prepared statement or type or return value 19:16:04 I try to make it support several types 19:16:15 if so, you could use -1 or some other character that doesn't make sense in strings 19:16:15 but that's no good if you're returning an integer 19:16:19 currently I have where format of depends on 19:16:21 holy crap 19:16:25 my keyboard 19:16:25 just 19:16:27 manually closed 19:16:29 every window in my browser 19:16:30 one by one 19:16:34 ais523, and yes I support integers and blobs 19:16:34 without me telling it to 19:16:42 ehird: are you sure? 19:16:45 ehird, your keyboard? 19:16:45 and keyboard, or mouse? 19:16:47 ais523: yep, i'll explain 19:16:48 did that? 19:16:50 how 19:17:05 i pressed cmd-w to close one window, while i was pressing it, my (wireless) keyboard lost connection for some reason 19:17:14 and so the OS never got the "keypress up" signal from it 19:17:17 so it thought i was holding it down 19:17:18 well 19:17:24 and it stopped when the last window was closed, and thus there was no focus 19:17:25 :DD 19:17:27 that's a bug, isn't it? 19:17:33 probably 19:17:39 it's not exactly gonna be common though 19:17:41 ehird, I wouldn't use a wireless keyboard anyway 19:17:51 that's nice. i don't care. it was my system, not yours 19:18:01 I don't know about other protocols, but on Windows the protocol is to send a key-down message for every time the key should appear, then a key-up at the end 19:18:02 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 19:18:10 so holding down a key gives down,down,down,down,down... 19:18:13 and letting go gives up 19:18:17 no 19:18:22 that's not how it works at the hardware layer 19:18:23 it gets 19:18:25 that's how messages are sent to the software 19:18:27 KEY X UP 19:18:29 KEY X DOWN 19:18:33 hardware using a similar method would make sense, probably 19:18:38 no 19:18:42 ehird, you have a short fuse (as I would say in Swedish, "kort stubin", not sure if the translation is very unidiomatic or not) 19:18:43 because the repeat rate is configurable 19:18:52 AnMaster: it is idiomatic 19:18:55 ok 19:19:01 ehird: yes, but wouldn't the keyword be? 19:19:05 AnMaster: no, i've just learnt that talking with you is so irritating that I try not to give it too much thought. 19:19:07 ais523: well, yes... 19:19:11 but anyway, that's how keyboards work 19:19:18 so the driver never got "key X up" 19:19:47 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:20:25 ok, $Object->{hello}(); works 19:20:32 now to make $Object->hello work 19:20:32 ehird, if it detects the lost connection (which I know it does for wireless mouse on OS X at least) it should send the key up event itself 19:20:40 AnMaster: shrug 19:20:45 it was funny 19:20:47 so it's a feature 19:21:07 hey, what perl method gets called when the method isn't known again? 19:21:08 ehird: most people wouldn't consider all their windows closing a feature... 19:21:12 ehird: AUTOLOAD 19:21:14 ehird, I'm pretty sure I have seen an ibook display "connection lost" under an image of a mouse 19:21:20 AnMaster: yes 19:21:32 ehird, the same for keyboards I assume? 19:21:35 yes 19:21:50 and for mouse it sends button up when that box shows up 19:21:50 ais523: what args does it get? :\ 19:21:57 but not for keyboard? 19:22:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:22:56 ouch that sounds like the C pre-processor trying to auto add missing includes XD 19:24:51 http://pastie.org/private/xisw72zrb5danroibmor7a c program reordering 19:24:58 self-contained files without huge library bulk at the top. 19:25:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:26:52 ehird, eh 19:27:09 oh right 19:27:38 ehird, why though? I don't see the point 19:27:45 for compiler output 19:28:00 the huge support functions can be at the bottom so you can inspect the compiled unlambda easily 19:28:02 ehird, why not just add the include at the top instead 19:28:03 without scrolling a lot 19:28:06 ah 19:28:08 right 19:28:14 AnMaster: that adds a function too 19:28:19 note that there's no prototype before it 19:28:22 it just reorders thec ode 19:28:24 ehird, this is from an unlambda compiler? 19:28:28 why didn't you say 19:28:33 i'm planning to write it :P 19:28:34 so yes 19:28:44 also, I'll keep the constant name. 19:28:48 ehird, well yes for that I guess it makes a certain amount of cense 19:28:54 sense* 19:28:56 gah 19:29:38 http://www.nordier.com/v7x86/index.html 19:29:44 Nerdgasm! 19:30:53 % perl unl2c.pl 19:30:53 __PROXY=HASH(0x18006a0) 19:30:55 1 19:30:56 2 19:30:59 3 19:31:00 __PROXY=HASH(0x18006a0) 19:31:02 now why does it duplicate that arg... 19:31:04 oh 19:31:06 hm 19:34:36 ehird, thanks for that link 19:34:40 * AnMaster bookmarks 19:35:07 * ehird tries to figure out how to define a variable i n another package 19:35:22 what is __PROXY? 19:35:29 a package I made up. 19:35:44 and what is this HASH() thing? MD5 hash? 19:36:03 or maybe sha1 19:36:06 no 19:36:07 perl hash 19:36:10 AnMaster: no, it's an attempt to print a pointer to a hash 19:36:11 i.e. hashtable 19:36:15 ais523, ah 19:36:16 oh hi ais523 19:36:17 how can I do this 19:36:19 ah ehird 19:36:21 our $__PROXY::foo; 19:36:34 ehird: that makes no sense 19:36:39 I know it doesn't 19:36:43 and that's why I want to do it. 19:36:45 so what /are/ you trying to do? 19:36:52 exactly that. 19:36:56 as if in __PROXY "our $foo;" was done 19:37:07 our? 19:37:12 aha, I got it working 19:37:12 you're trying to declare a lexically scoped variable... in a different scope? 19:37:12 no! MINE! 19:37:14 ;P 19:37:16 sub __PROXY::AUTOLOAD { 19:37:16 unshift @_; 19:37:17 my ($obj, @args) = @_; 19:37:18 AnMaster: my is a keyword too 19:37:19 print $__PROXY::AUTOLOAD,"\n"; 19:37:21 } 19:37:23 % perl unl2c.pl 19:37:25 __PROXY::hello 19:37:27 __PROXY::DESTROY 19:37:29 ais523, meaning? 19:37:37 AnMaster: they declare lexically scoped variables 19:37:40 sort-of like auto in C 19:37:45 except in C you have to give the data type 19:37:51 ais523, hehe 19:38:02 in Perl, you don't, which is why the auto-like keyword is needed 19:38:09 ais523, so what if you don't use my, what sort of scope is used then? 19:38:15 AnMaster: dynamic scope 19:38:18 aha 19:38:20 instead of lexica 19:38:21 l 19:38:25 wait, no 19:38:27 global, usually 19:38:28 I think 19:38:33 "local" is for dynamic scope 19:38:46 I see 19:39:06 ehird: "local" is for INTERCAL-like scope 19:39:14 ais523, ? 19:39:24 ais523: question, how can you say "is this a sub"? 19:39:43 well, it's a sub if you're running it 19:39:49 checking for a pointer to a sub would make more sense 19:39:52 which you can do with ref 19:39:53 well, yes 19:39:59 ehird, if (Object.IsSubmerged()) return true; 19:40:00 AnMaster: push/pop on a stack for scoping 19:40:02 ooh, wait... 19:40:06 ais523, ah right 19:40:21 how do you call an anonymous sub again? 19:40:41 no one noticed the joke? :( 19:40:52 yes, i did 19:40:54 it just wasn't funny 19:41:04 ehird: &$variable_holding_pointer_to_sub; 19:41:15 you never like my jokes ehird :( 19:41:18 ais523: actually, the anonymous sub is the result of a function calll. 19:42:10 ais523: do you have to do ->() or something? 19:42:11 i think so 19:42:16 yep 19:42:19 foo->(...) 19:42:24 ehird: that's syntactic sugar, which works 19:42:34 the non-sugared version is &{put call here}(); 19:43:08 ais523: ok, now how do I execute some code in the context of whoever called me? <_< 19:43:31 ehird: you're already in the context of whoever called you, apart from lexically scoped variables 19:43:42 lexical scoping is deliberately sane, so you aren't going to be able to get around it 19:43:59 ais523: except 19:44:01 functions can use caller 19:44:09 I want caller to be whoever called this method, in the function I call 19:44:10 not me 19:44:23 so, I just want to contort the call stack 19:44:27 "just" 19:44:46 ehird: ah, interesting 19:44:53 do you return immediately after the call, or do you do other things? 19:45:04 return the result of the call, immediately after it returns 19:45:14 Perl has a primitive just for you, then 19:45:18 goto &procedure; 19:45:23 ouch 19:45:25 that's the tail-recursion primitive 19:45:25 ais523: oho! 19:45:27 and with arguments? 19:45:33 goto &procedure(@args);? 19:45:33 you put them in @_ before the call 19:45:35 ouch 19:45:39 hahaha 19:45:40 ais523: okay, what about if I have a subref? 19:45:48 goto &$subref; 19:46:12 ais523, does perl support "normal" goto? I mean like goto in C 19:46:25 yes, although it's bad style 19:46:29 oh my fucking god. 19:46:29 it worked. 19:46:32 wow 19:46:35 i feel awful 19:46:36 I feel dirty 19:46:38 i want to die 19:46:39 but it worked 19:46:40 ehird, pastebin the code 19:46:40 holy shit. 19:46:44 yep ,will do 19:46:52 ehird: what's wrong with a tail-recursion primitive which lets you tail-recurse to /different/ procedures? 19:46:56 actually, that was its original use 19:47:03 ais523: you've got to see this 19:47:05 http://pastie.org/private/c1x8277pqihm1ht3srcwfg 19:47:16 i feel _dreadful_ 19:47:33 ehird: is that a good thing, or a bad thing? 19:47:39 ehird, my $name = $__PROXY::AUTOLOAD; ? 19:47:41 i wish I knew, ais523 19:47:43 AnMaster: yes. 19:47:47 ehird, what does that do 19:47:58 AnMaster: google it, i'd have another breakdown if I tried to explain 19:48:19 ehird: that's the original purpose for which AUTOLOAD and goto & were invented 19:48:23 ehird, well googling that exact string found nothing, I have no clue what to google 19:48:27 ais523: i know, but what it does 19:48:28 is perverse 19:48:31 it invents an object system 19:48:35 and a whole new object semantics 19:48:40 with that horrible, horrible stuff 19:48:42 does it make you feel dirtier or less dirty to know that you're using those commands with their intended meaning? 19:48:52 I think it's the fact that I can use them to give that result 19:49:05 I mean, variables and functions in the same namespace? 19:49:07 That's terrible! 19:49:12 That's not Perl! 19:49:21 they aren't in the same namespace 19:49:28 yes they are 19:49:28 ehird, is this object orientation for perl? 19:49:30 $Object->a 19:49:33 $Object->foo(1,2,3) 19:49:37 AnMaster: perl already has object orientation 19:49:37 AnMaster: Perl has at least 2 object-orientation systems already 19:49:42 i'm just abusing one aspect of it 19:49:44 then what is this then? 19:49:45 in a deliciously perverse way 19:49:47 to invent my _own_ system 19:49:51 oh 19:49:53 right 19:49:59 ais523, why two? 19:50:05 AnMaster: the default one 19:50:10 and lots of others as CPAN modules 19:50:12 wouldn't just adding basic OO work 19:50:13 probably using similar tricks to ehird 19:50:31 ais523, so the perl built in OO is not very good? 19:50:35 hmm wait 19:50:36 since people wrote their own 19:50:37 mine doesn't pass along self 19:50:39 * ehird makes it 19:50:41 no, it's just too general 19:50:48 and thus confusing to use, and not particularly standardised 19:50:52 ais523, ah 19:51:30 ais523, sounds like even PHP OO is saner than that 19:51:36 and PHP is generally insane 19:51:40 wait, I wonder how my use of unshift worked 19:51:46 it actually did a pop... 19:51:47 I think... 19:51:54 unshift != pop 19:51:59 oh no... I can't figure out my own code... 19:52:05 unshift pushes to the left of an array, pop pops from the right 19:52:11 yes 19:52:37 so unshift should be called mom then? 19:53:21 oerjan, eh? 19:53:25 oerjan: I was going to reply to that, but couldn't think of anything sensible to say 19:53:28 AnMaster: it's a really bad pun 19:53:37 I don't get it 19:53:38 hmm... 19:53:43 how do you merge two hashes in perl? 19:53:47 well 19:53:49 two hashrefs. 19:53:50 AnMaster: ask your mom or pop 19:53:56 ehird: %a = (%b, %c) for hashes 19:54:01 hashrefs :P 19:54:09 %$a = (%$b, %$c) 19:54:19 can you do %$self = ...;? 19:54:20 well, I guess so. 19:54:21 ew :D 19:54:24 should be pretty obvious given the syntax for dereferencing 19:54:33 wait 19:54:36 %a = (%a, %b) 19:54:37 surely 19:54:39 to add more stuff 19:54:40 actually, I'm not entirely sure if assigning to self screws up the blessing 19:54:47 and yes, to merge into a hash 19:54:52 but you can easily just rebless once you're done 19:54:57 do => sub { 19:54:58 my ($self, $more) = @_; 19:54:59 %$self = (%$self, %$more); 19:55:01 return $self; 19:55:03 } 19:55:05 BEHOLD 19:55:08 ... dammit 19:55:09 doesn't work 19:55:13 did it mess up the blessing? 19:55:16 $Object->do { 19:55:18 is invalid syntax 19:55:22 why? 19:55:24 i don't want parens 19:55:29 I need a prototype 19:55:30 I guess 19:55:33 ehird: think about it 19:55:37 blessing?? 19:55:37 what you're saying makes no sense 19:55:41 you can't have object calls with prototypes 19:55:43 perl is religious? 19:55:47 because then you could change the syntax at runtime 19:55:47 AnMaster: well, yes 19:55:49 larry wall is christian 19:55:50 ah 19:55:54 but bless is part of the OO system 19:56:03 hah 19:56:03 AnMaster: no, it's just the syntax for associating a pointer with a class 19:56:05 ais523: you can anyway :P 19:56:07 to tell it what class it's an object for 19:56:09 ehird: no 19:56:09 hm 19:56:10 using eval 19:56:14 only inside BEGIN{} blocks 19:56:20 even eval doesn't change the syntax at runtime 19:56:25 umm, schwartzian snippet 19:56:27 what confuses people is that eval has a compile then run 19:56:45 but that only affects the code inside the eval 19:56:47 because then you could change the syntax at runtime <-- Feather! 19:56:50 :D 19:57:10 ais523: then what about the schwartzian snippet 19:57:14 or wtf it's called 19:57:19 the one that says parsing Perl is TC? 19:57:23 yes 19:57:26 it just runs the prototype code in a BEGIN {} block 19:57:32 which in Perl, is technically compile-time 19:57:35 ah 19:57:45 being able to run arbitrary code at compile-time = having TC syntax 19:57:48 fairly obviously 19:58:00 Schwartzian Transform is the only hit 19:58:02 when googling 19:58:06 is it that? 19:58:10 no 19:58:10 http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=663393 19:58:14 whatever / 25 ; # / ; die "this dies!"; 19:58:17 that can be parsed two ways 19:58:21 if whatever takes no arguments, it's a call to it 19:58:23 then a devision 19:58:24 then a ; 19:58:25 then a comment 19:58:29 if whatever takes an argument 19:58:31 it calls whatever with a regexp 19:58:33 and then dies 19:58:43 but you can define functions at runtime... 19:58:47 :-D 19:59:37 ehird: prototypes are compile-time only 19:59:47 that's why there's a BEGIN block in the proof 20:00:01 ais523, prototypes as prototypes in C? 20:00:12 AnMaster: not exactly, as they modify the syntax of the language 20:00:23 although they say what type each parameter is, just like C prototypes do 20:00:30 ais523, I thought Perl didn't have C-style prototypes 20:00:40 it doesn't 20:00:41 ais523, oh? 20:00:41 it doesn't 20:00:46 then wtf 20:00:46 snap. 20:00:50 so ais523 20:00:55 how can I get $Object->do { to work 20:00:55 :D 20:00:57 saying what type each parameter is isn't sufficient to be a C-style prototype 20:01:03 ehird: Source filters! 20:01:09 (N.B. not recommended) 20:01:12 ais523: FUCK YOU :( 20:01:13 sorry 20:01:13 just 20:01:15 bad 20:01:17 memories 20:01:19 :{ 20:01:40 i 20:01:41 c 20:01:42 a 20:01:43 n 20:01:44 t 20:01:46 y 20:01:49 p 20:01:51 e 20:01:54 like 20:01:56 n 20:01:56 this 20:01:57 o 20:01:58 r 20:01:59 too 20:02:00 c 20:02:07 a 20:02:07 n 20:02:07 o 20:02:08 am 20:02:10 a 20:02:12 l 20:02:14 o 20:02:15 w 20:02:15 t 20:02:16 f 20:02:16 t 20:02:18 o 20:02:20 f 20:02:22 t 20:02:24 s 20:02:24 h 20:02:25 t 20:02:26 o 20:02:26 a 20:02:26 p 20:02:27 20:02:28 n 20:02:29 i 20:02:29 t 20:02:30 t 20:02:32 o 20:02:34 s 20:02:36 f 20:02:38 b 20:02:40 what 20:02:40 a 20:02:41 have 20:02:41 S 20:02:41 T 20:02:42 i 20:02:42 F 20:02:42 n 20:02:43 U 20:02:43 done 20:02:43 :D 20:02:44 t 20:02:46 b 20:02:48 u 20:02:50 t 20:02:52 a 20:02:54 l 20:02:56 a 20:02:58 k 20:03:00 . 20:03:02 p 20:03:04 l 20:03:06 o 20:03:07 zomg 20:03:08 p 20:03:10 you 20:03:12 hvae 20:03:14 done 20:03:16 magic 20:03:17 ... 20:03:18 and 20:03:20 a 20:03:21 what the heck was that? 20:03:22 bowl 20:03:24 of 20:03:26 plate 20:03:28 of 20:03:30 faeriy 20:03:32 es 20:03:34 magic 20:03:36 dust 20:03:38 . 20:03:51 It's over \o/ 20:04:00 ais523: couldn't I define a dynamic prototype on AUTOLOAD? <__< 20:04:17 no 20:04:17 \o~ 20:04:19 Perl is a compiled language! 20:04:25 ais523: hmm, perl needs a ,= operator 20:04:28 %$self = (%$self, %more); 20:04:29 could be 20:04:29 'later guys ! 20:04:37 %$self ,= %more; 20:05:02 ais523, hm 20:05:20 ehird, what about .= ? 20:05:24 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 20:05:27 that is for strings 20:05:27 does that exist? 20:05:29 AnMaster: that's for string concatenation 20:05:32 not array concatenation 20:05:34 ehird, yes I was wondering if it existed 20:05:37 AnMaster: you can't even compare strings and ints the same way 20:05:38 which would indeed be ,= if it existed 20:05:39 like in PHP 20:05:40 1 == 2 20:05:41 but 20:05:41 ... 20:05:42 true 20:05:43 'a' eq 'b' 20:05:45 read what I said 20:05:48 i know 20:05:48 does that exist? 20:05:48 :D 20:05:54 i was just saying something funny. 20:05:56 "0xa" = "1e1" 20:06:00 *== 20:06:05 hmm 20:06:09 how do you copy a hash in perl <__< 20:06:10 ais523, I much prefer: 20:06:12 but then, it does in PHP too, and PHP doesn't have a string-compare operator 20:06:14 X = y 20:06:16 if x = y 20:06:19 and so on 20:06:22 they should all be same 20:06:23 ehird: just assign it without using a reference 20:06:29 ais523, don't you agree? 20:06:30 as in my %new_hash = %$oldhash 20:06:37 i much prefer (= x y), (equal? x y), (eqv? x y) and (eq? x y) 20:06:37 ais523, as in math 20:06:38 and you can then return a reference to new_hash 20:06:43 (Scheme has _all_ of those comparison ops.) 20:06:45 ehird, yes that is nice too 20:06:48 (They're all useful in all different situations.)_ 20:07:01 ehird, agreed 20:07:03 R5RS Scheme is interestingly complete in the few areas it dabbles in. 20:07:06 Perl has ||=, if you're after weird operators 20:07:07 It has a comprehensive numeric tower. 20:07:14 ais523: eh, ruby has that 20:07:15 it's useful 20:07:16 Or equal to? 20:07:18 yes 20:07:21 it's "initialize this var if it isn't already" 20:07:23 ais523, what is ||= ? 20:07:25 FireFly: a ||= b is actually 20:07:25 ehird: no, that's //= 20:07:27 a || (a = b) 20:07:29 logical and? 20:07:31 (AnMaster: too) 20:07:36 ehird: no, it's a = (a || b) 20:07:40 an operator called "too"? 20:07:47 ais523: well, in Perl maybe 20:07:49 but in ruby it's that 20:07:53 ehird: they mean the same thing 20:07:58 nope 20:08:00 because if a, then a || b is the same as a 20:08:07 in Ruby, the assignment is never triggered 20:08:12 a very VM-level distinction, yes 20:08:16 but one nevertheless 20:08:16 optimisation/ 20:08:19 it's actually faster 20:08:19 or can you detect it? 20:08:26 ais523: i don't think you can detect it 20:08:32 you can in a C extension, probably, though 20:08:36 if you can't detect it from inside the program, then it semantically is a = (a || b), and it's just being optimised 20:08:51 clone => sub { 20:08:52 my $self = shift; 20:08:53 bless %$self, __PROXY; 20:08:55 }, 20:09:12 oops 20:09:14 should just be $self 20:09:14 heh 20:09:31 ehird: that doesn't copy the object 20:09:37 hmm true 20:09:39 I'll have to do 20:09:40 it should be my %copy_of_self = %$self; 20:09:44 actually 20:09:45 it should be 20:09:52 bless \%copy_of_self, $self; 20:09:52 my $copy_of_self = \%$self; 20:09:53 I think 20:09:54 XD 20:10:01 ehird: no, that's wrong 20:10:05 ok 20:10:10 \%$self is like writing &*self in C 20:10:15 you get back self, not a copy of it 20:10:15 ah 20:10:30 you want to dereference, copy the dereferenced value, then reference the copy 20:10:34 wow, it works 20:10:36 that's what a deep copy /is/, after all 20:10:43 a prototypical object system in Perl in 27 lines 20:10:44 not bad 20:10:58 * ehird adds one last nicety 20:11:10 hmm 20:11:40 ais523, err a deep copy is more, it copies any pointers in the struct too 20:11:45 well, OK 20:11:52 a non-shallow non-deep copy 20:11:53 ais523, you mean a shallow copy 20:11:59 err how? 20:11:59 no, a shallow copy just copies the pointer 20:12:02 it's a 1-level copy 20:12:10 ais523, no that would be making a copy of the reference 20:12:10 you're duplicating the struct, but not pointers inside it 20:12:13 not a copy of the object 20:12:18 AnMaster: ah, that's what I call a shallow copy 20:12:20 a shallow copy would copy level 1 20:12:24 ais523, well I might be wrong 20:12:32 but I thought shallow copy was what you described 20:12:33 it's one-level copies we're talking about, anyway 20:12:35 http://pastie.org/private/jenlaevavatsjngzjmsljw 20:12:41 A PROTOTYPICAL OBJECT SYSTEM IN AROUND 30 LINES OF PERL 20:12:42 :DD 20:12:55 ehird, nice 20:13:06 I will add delegation to multiple prototypes instead of just one, then that'll be version 1. 20:13:12 I shall use it for my underload to C compiler. :D 20:13:19 It will be called... Minob. 20:13:28 Slogan: So small you can just paste it in. 20:13:30 >:D 20:13:45 ehird, what about private members? 20:13:56 and protected and so on 20:14:03 AnMaster: Eh, private data is for weenies. 20:14:09 ehird, oh ok 20:14:17 also C++-style friend for the extra "eww" 20:14:18 I don't even think CLOS has it, and CLOS is a pretty good object system. 20:14:19 ;P 20:14:22 AnMaster: in Perl, the convention is not to declare as private, just to not access other class's private stuff 20:14:28 AnMaster: Just call the var _foo if you really don't want anyone to touch it 20:14:29 *classes' 20:14:37 ais523, well perl usually have good documentation so I guess it works 20:14:43 perl modules* 20:14:49 I'd prefer to be able to do 20:14:51 sub hello { 20:14:51 ... 20:14:52 } 20:14:54 instead of 20:14:56 hello => sub { 20:14:58 ... 20:15:00 }, 20:15:02 but there you go 20:15:09 ehird, per-processor 20:15:09 leading underscore's normally used for internals, so as to let people know not to use it 20:15:19 but that isn't actually enforced 20:15:21 ais523: how would I go about doing it with sub? 20:15:28 ais523, ah it isn't reserved for something? 20:15:33 AnMaster: no 20:15:40 apparently, they use the leading underscore to scare C programmers 20:15:46 into keeping away 20:15:51 ais523, from perl? 20:15:59 AnMaster: no, from private internals 20:16:00 leading underscare 20:16:02 ah 20:16:12 oerjan, heh 20:16:16 hmm 20:16:23 ais523: is there an "anti ,="? :D 20:16:23 ehird: the problem is that sub hello { } is a named subroutine declaration 20:16:39 you aren't going to be able to return a value like that 20:16:45 that's why anonymous subs exist, after all 20:16:47 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:16:52 as for an anti ,=, what do you want to do? 20:16:56 remove elements from a hash? 20:16:58 un-concatenate hashes 20:16:59 XD 20:17:16 what I really need is to define AUTOLOAD on the hash _itself_ 20:17:16 :s 20:17:17 ehird: does that differ from removing elements which are the keys of a given hash? 20:17:32 ais523: nope. any ideas how I could "AUTOLOAD the hash"? 20:17:32 that is 20:17:34 ais523, perl is basically hack * (awk + sed + C + sh + rand()) 20:17:37 $hashref->{fooasdasdasd} 20:17:39 I mean the syntax 20:17:40 would call a subroutine 20:17:45 and the language itself 20:17:50 ehird: yes, you could tie the hash 20:17:55 but then anyone sane will kill you 20:17:56 (of which syntax is a part) 20:18:05 ais523: can you bless a tied hash? 20:18:09 and I have no idea how tied hashes interact with the OO system 20:18:17 I'm not at all convinced that you can bless a tied hash 20:18:21 im gonna ask #perl XD 20:18:25 although I'm pretty sure it's in an FAQ somewhere 20:18:26 AnMaster: i really liked that katamari damacy reference earlier 20:18:32 20:18 Can you bless a tied hash? Don't ask. 20:18:32 20:18 ais523 has joined (n=ais523@147.188.254.127) 20:18:43 ehird: I'm here to watch the fun 20:18:46 of course, now they will ask. 20:18:47 im gonna ask #perl XD <-- I'm going to watch too 20:18:48 it isn't something you'd do if you were sane 20:19:07 what is a tied hash? 20:19:30 http://perldoc.perl.org/Tie/Hash.html 20:19:33 ehird, when you are done you should pastebin your code there 20:19:34 :D 20:19:40 20:19 ehird: you can bless any reference, perl doesn't give a shit what it's a reference -to- 20:19:44 ehird, I want to see their reactions 20:19:45 itt: hardcore perl users don't be givin' a shit 20:19:47 ehird: no, that's the CPAN module for tying hashes 20:19:54 ais523: fail 20:19:56 ehird, ouch 20:19:57 there's a tie primitive 20:19:58 if that was a cpan module 20:19:59 Home > Core modules > T > Tie::Hash 20:20:13 ehird: well, core is also CPAN, the way I think of things 20:20:17 just because it's in core doesn't change things 20:20:20 it's still a module 20:20:29 I think the sky is green. 20:20:29 there's a primitive for doing tying, why bother with modules? 20:20:39 ehird: modules get moved back and forth all the time 20:20:42 they're still modules 20:20:59 ais523, well what is a tied hash then? 20:21:21 20:20 ehird: So, in short, "yes". And it does what you expect. 20:21:22 20:21 buu: Hooray. What I expect is bunnies to fly out of my nose, though. 20:21:25 20:21 ehird: You're in luck! 20:21:25 20:21 I'm so lucky! 20:21:40 hah 20:21:57 ehird, well this is a typical example of #perl I guess 20:22:13 at least they would be happy about a hack like that python-with-no-indent hack you made 20:22:18 using lambda iirc 20:22:19 Tie::Hash just defines the standard hash-tying methods 20:22:27 AnMaster: ever seen ACME::Pythonic? 20:22:31 ais523, nop 20:22:36 IIRC, there was also a Python module to go the other way 20:22:38 ais523, the name doesn't bode well 20:22:44 ACME I mean 20:22:49 AnMaster: it's a Perl source filter which gives it Python syntax 20:22:54 hah 20:22:59 and ACME is for the jokey/not entirely serious stuff on CPAN 20:23:08 there's an ACME::Brainfuck, for instance 20:23:14 which allows inline BF in Perl code 20:23:20 without even any special syntax 20:23:28 I think it uses heuristics to tell the BF and the Perl apart 20:23:29 ais523, there is a python module for ; and {} in python I know 20:23:36 filter or encoding or something 20:23:38 forgot the name 20:34:09 ais523, hm how does it reinterpret the code? 20:34:19 I mean it needs to reinterpret the code with a changed interpreter right? 20:34:22 after the use foo; 20:34:36 AnMaster: it's a source filter 20:34:42 ais523, and that means? 20:34:44 you have to write the use foo at the top 20:34:50 right 20:34:54 and it goes and runs the rest of the code through the source filter before continuing to compile 20:35:00 ais523, after any #!/bin/perl or such I assume? 20:35:07 only from the use statement onwards 20:35:15 an 20:35:17 ah* 20:36:36 also that ACME::Brainfuck, does it share memory with perl or something? 20:37:02 it's a source filter 20:37:13 I think it uses some var in the module itself as a tape and pointer 20:37:14 ais523, I mean the bf code it runs 20:37:19 and the perl code it runs 20:37:24 it doesn't share memory with Perl 20:37:27 how can they interact with each other memory 20:37:41 but BF code is a Perl expression which returns the current value at the pointer 20:37:46 and I think Perl can access the tape via some API 20:38:01 ais523, this may interest you too http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.3/static/ecpg-concept.html 20:38:38 AnMaster: heh, that's source filters for C 20:38:45 ais523, indeed 20:39:16 ais523, and it is serious, I can't see any serious use of a source filter for perl or C. I think ecpg is silly 20:39:33 what about cpp? that's a source filter 20:40:08 ais523, well true 20:40:17 but I mean another source filter apart from cpp 20:40:34 ehird, what is the last version of your OO system? 20:40:43 care to pastebin it? :D 20:40:45 *latest? 20:40:51 last would imply there wouldn't be any more 20:40:51 ais523, yes 20:40:57 ah 20:41:14 famous latest words 20:41:15 what about the last and greast? 20:41:23 (intentional typo) 20:41:33 oerjan, hah 20:42:05 * AnMaster wish it was last word instead of latest Office crap 20:42:13 (I so hate MS word...) 20:42:48 AnMaster: what in particular don't you like about it? 20:43:00 ais523, well it's document format for a start 20:43:15 even more so with the last XML based not-really-standard thing 20:43:31 ok, I'll agree with that 20:43:37 ais523, also clippy 20:43:51 meh, clippy was easy to turn off 20:44:18 ais523, and then there is the stupid "this sentence seems overly bureaucratic" when I type (message translated from Swedish word) 20:44:28 when I type a formal letter 20:44:33 and so on 20:44:33 it's "overly formal" in English 20:44:40 but actually, I usually got the opposite error 20:44:49 ais523, I never got the opposite 20:44:53 Word's grammar-checker doesn't like people using the passive 20:45:02 also it complains about "old Swedish" sometimes 20:45:20 which again I use because I want to 20:45:34 ais523, I guess it differs between languages 20:45:46 -!- Corun has joined. 20:45:49 ais523, oh also they don't include spell checking or grammar checking for all the languages 20:45:59 just English + language Word is localized in 20:46:08 ais523, which is quite strange 20:46:18 any idea why? 20:46:23 AnMaster: it's addonable, I think 20:46:26 just not installed by default 20:46:28 ais523, costs money? 20:46:32 because it isn't on the cd 20:46:35 probably 20:46:36 with office standard 20:46:45 that is office xp btw 20:46:50 I don't have any newer 20:46:54 nor do I plan to get that 20:47:53 ais523, oh and openoffice is just as bad. I mean why are there no high quality office suites, I mean same level of quality as emacs is for text editors or such 20:48:14 koffice is a joke 20:48:18 AnMaster: LaTeX? 20:48:30 ais523, yes but that doesn't do the spreadsheet bit though 20:48:32 http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/744.html 20:48:36 sure it solves the text issue 20:48:43 AnMaster: I've heard good things about Gnumeric, but never used it 20:48:49 maybe I should download it and have a look 20:49:09 ais523, I think I tried it a few years ago 20:49:11 maybe 2 or 3 20:49:15 wasn't very good back then iirc 20:49:32 * ais523 installs Gnumeric 20:49:52 ais523, that would mean installing half of gnome 20:49:54 which would suck 20:50:56 AnMaster: I have half of gnome installed already 20:51:03 both Gnome and KDE are installed here 20:51:04 and why not? 20:51:09 besides, KDE4 still isn't finished 20:51:13 ais523, yes 20:51:18 ais523, I'm on KDE 3.x 20:51:20 so Gnome is the only real desktop environment I can use here atm 20:51:42 ais523, KDE 3.x for me. And going awesome wm instead of KDE 4 when it is time for that 20:51:51 back 20:52:23 ais523, I wonder what happens if you do startx, then jumps back to the console and starts xdm using the normal service script for it 20:52:28 I'm not about to try 20:52:36 xdm or gdm or kdm 20:52:45 AnMaster: me? I don't run startx by hand 20:52:50 ais523, well I do 20:53:07 ehird, ehird, what is the last version of your OO system? care to pastebin it? :D 20:54:08 "I mean same level of quality as emacs is for text editors or such" 20:54:13 ms word. 20:54:18 AnMaster: i just came back, no revisions atm 20:54:19 adding ties 20:54:26 -!- olsner has joined. 20:54:35 ehird, tell me when you are done 20:54:40 hmm... Gnumeric reminds me of Abiword 20:54:41 soon. 20:54:52 not full-featured, but looks good at what it tries to do 20:55:23 circular references act really weirdly, though 20:56:17 it seems to get 850*77.1 right 20:56:28 but that's not particularly surprising 20:56:53 so 20:56:57 ive designed a language. :T 20:57:23 psygnisf_: what paradigm? 20:57:56 i think the best way to describe it is as a pattern-matching unifying tree-rewriting system. 20:58:13 sounds great 21:00:30 my only task now is to.. actually make the language. XD 21:00:54 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive. 21:01:04 it seems to get 850*77.1 right 21:01:04 but that's not particularly surprising 21:01:09 why would you even try that? 21:01:19 AnMaster: because famously, Excel 2007 got it wrong 21:01:23 at least, until they patched it 21:01:24 ais523, how? 21:01:32 to be precise, it was a bug in the binary to decimal conversion 21:01:39 which converted numbers just below 65535 to 1000000 21:01:44 *100000 21:01:44 heh 21:01:56 ais523, why not just use snprintf()? 21:02:01 or something like ti 21:02:03 it* 21:02:09 windows has itoa() iirc 21:02:15 AnMaster: don't ask me, I haven't read the source code to Excel 21:02:20 true 21:02:26 but I think it's because it would have printed as 65534.9999999999999999999999999 21:02:28 or something similar 21:02:38 ais523: i think also the way its designed, integer math is entirely feasible from primitives in the system. rather than building it in terms of stuff outside the system. :o 21:02:44 ais523, oh? depends on setting precision? 21:02:47 psygnisfive: that's true of most langs 21:02:49 AnMaster: yes 21:03:05 ais523, if proper rounding mode is set it wouldn't be an issue 21:03:08 if you set "precision as displayed", the incorrect numbers actually went and affected other calculations 21:03:11 mm i suppose in some sense it is. 21:03:16 the bug wasn't rounding mode, just the rounding algorithm 21:03:28 ais523, ah 21:03:42 Googling "850 77.1" gives lots of results, anywy 21:03:44 *anyway 21:06:01 I wonder how you do "x and return x" in perl. 21:08:42 $x and return $x; 21:10:25 -!- oklopol has joined. 21:10:32 $result = $_->{$key} and return $result; works 21:10:44 why wouldn't it? 21:12:19 ais523: can you put undef in a hash or is that just essentially deleting that element? 21:12:28 you can put undef in a hash 21:12:30 hillo everyone! 21:12:32 and it isn't deleting the element 21:12:37 agh. 21:12:42 you use exists to tell if undef's in a hash 21:12:49 *anything's in a hash 21:12:50 i'm _implementing_ exists. 21:12:52 and defined to see if it's undef 21:13:11 you can use delete to get rid of an element altogether, rather than just undeffing it out 21:13:47 oklopol: how dare you call me a jam! 21:14:03 oerjan, ? 21:14:07 that made no sense 21:14:24 it made frighteningly lot of sense. 21:14:31 * oerjan cackles evilly 21:14:47 gitf 21:15:12 er wait 21:15:16 giyf 21:15:22 hmm. 21:15:27 i have to implement firstkey/nextkey. 21:15:28 Kill me. 21:15:41 I wonder if 21:15:47 "goo in the face" 21:15:48 i cannot, someone took my saucepan 21:15:53 each %{ $self->{data}, @$self->{delegates} } 21:15:54 would work 21:16:03 oh wait 21:16:27 //=== *boom* 21:17:27 AnMaster: the object system is growing to >100 lines :P 21:18:20 rule #1 of short programs: never add features 21:18:27 it's not really a feature 21:18:29 it's just making it actually work 21:18:54 oerjan, when? 21:19:03 also is saucepan == fryingpan? 21:19:05 in English 21:19:09 no 21:19:10 AnMaster: no, not quite 21:19:14 ais523, oh? 21:19:16 frying pans are flatter and wider 21:19:27 ais523, right 21:19:28 and generally used to fry things 21:19:34 saucepans are more commonly used for boiling 21:19:40 ais523, kettle? 21:19:48 kettles are used for boiling water 21:19:52 right 21:19:54 and are much more enclosed 21:20:00 saucepans are used for boiling vegetables 21:20:08 i was imagining AnMaster putting stuff to boil in a kettle there XD 21:20:10 and cooking baked beans 21:20:14 ais523, pot? 21:20:19 pot's more general 21:20:30 is sausepan a type of pot? 21:20:31 a saucepan's a type of pot, but there are others 21:20:33 yeah pot's great 21:20:34 like flowerpots 21:20:42 hm 21:20:47 Type of arg 1 to keys must be hash (not private variable) at unl2c.pl line 55, near "$flattened;" 21:20:48 what fuck my life 21:20:55 it isssssssssss 21:20:58 ehird: that makes sense 21:20:59 it's just the result of a function callllllllllllll 21:21:04 you maybe want to dereference it first 21:21:05 my $flattened = $self->_flatten; 21:21:05 keys $flattened; 21:21:06 each $flattened; 21:21:07 functions can't return hashes 21:21:09 sub __DELEGATE::_flatten { 21:21:10 my $self = shift; 21:21:12 %{ $self->{data}, @$self->{delegations} }; 21:21:14 } 21:21:19 yep, you're returning an array there 21:21:22 functions can't return hashes 21:21:23 umm 21:21:24 hashes are arrays. 21:21:30 did you mean hashref? 21:21:38 hashes != arrays 21:21:43 you can't run keys on an array 21:21:45 ohhhhhhhhh, the problem is "my $flattened" 21:22:01 and yes, you're assigning your array to a scalar there 21:22:04 so you only get its length 21:22:14 my %flattened = $self->_flatten; 21:22:16 will do it 21:22:18 Cookware and bakeware 21:22:18 From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 21:22:18 (Redirected from Saucepan) 21:22:19 gah 21:22:25 can't find interwiki link that way 21:22:30 kastrull? 21:22:44 Type of arg 1 to each must be hash (not subroutine entry) at unl2c.pl line 61, near "->flatten;" 21:22:46 ok now _that's_ bizarre 21:23:02 no, it isn't 21:23:09 it's telling you exactly what I was saying 21:23:15 which is that functions can't return hashes 21:23:18 well, okay :P 21:23:20 you can return a hashref if you want 21:23:47 Bareword "__PROXY" not allowed while "strict subs" in use at unl2c.pl line 75. 21:23:48 ;_; 21:24:02 Bareword? 21:24:03 ehird: ah, you're interacting with use strict; 21:24:07 try putting it in quotes 21:24:08 * ehird defines __PROXY stuff _before_ doing the bless 21:24:12 ais523: ah, ok 21:24:18 AnMaster: a bareword's a string with no meaning 21:24:20 like foo 21:24:24 ah 21:24:32 Can't use global @_ in "my" at unl2c.pl line 85, near "= @_" 21:24:36 Perl interprets it as "foo", or &foo(), depending on context 21:24:38 fuck you Perl, thatmakes perfect sense 21:24:43 its complaininga bout 21:24:44 my ($self, %more) = @_; 21:24:51 ehird: you aren't inside a function 21:24:53 which worked fine before I turned on STUPID PEDANTIC MODE. 21:24:55 ais523: wrong 21:24:58 do => sub { 21:24:58 my ($self, %more) = @_; 21:25:11 hmm.... 21:25:28 well, that's a my 21:25:34 and that is presumably a global @_ 21:25:45 so all that remains is to wonder wtf that's an error 21:25:55 ais523, can't you read a global in a function? 21:26:01 AnMaster: you can, normally 21:26:06 so I'm wondering what's happening here 21:26:20 AnMaster: in fact = @_ is the perl idiom for finding a function's arguments 21:26:21 bet its to do with the %more 21:26:22 it's confused by ehird 21:26:27 oerjan, indeed 21:26:31 ehird: no, because that's inside the my 21:26:38 true/ 21:26:38 oerjan, I know *THAT* much perl 21:26:46 out of interest, what does my $self = shift; my %more = @_; do? 21:26:57 that should mean the same thing 21:27:01 almost 21:27:07 ais523, almost? 21:27:17 ahhh, i found the issue 21:27:19 AnMaster: it leaves a different value in @_ 21:27:22 but normally you aren't reading it again 21:27:23 ais523, ah 21:27:26 ehird: what was it? 21:27:28 delegate => sub { 21:27:28 21:27:30 } 21:27:32 do => sub { 21:27:34 my ($self, %more) = @_; 21:27:36 missing comma 21:27:36 can you spot the error? 21:27:39 so you weren't inside a sub 21:27:42 the 'do' was tripping it up and all went to hell :D 21:27:45 missing comma 21:27:46 can you spot the error? 21:27:47 hehe 21:27:56 said it first on my end :P 21:27:57 (yes I know lag) 21:28:03 ehird, well it looked funny here 21:28:04 ehird: said it before I received your message 21:28:10 heh, ok :) 21:28:13 no way can I type that fast 21:28:21 ais523, of course, or it couldn't had arrived first to me 21:28:31 due to spanning tree 21:28:34 and it would have been a pretty fast sopt even then 21:28:42 you can't get out of order then 21:28:45 in that way 21:31:46 "Joel on Software. The site is read by thousands of programmers a month -- the ones who are so good at programming they have spare time at work to read the self-absorbed drivel I publish there." 21:31:52 Gee, Joel is finally coming to a realization. 21:31:57 is that what it actually says? 21:32:04 yep 21:32:07 http://www.inc.com/magazine/20090101/how-hard-could-it-be-thanks-or-no-thanks_Printer_Friendly.html?partner=fogcreek 21:32:11 the rest of the article is, of course, drivel 21:34:30 this thing is awful 21:34:36 I'm basically implementing an object system as a tied hash 21:34:39 then blessing it for nicer syntax 21:36:14 clearly cthulhu is the god involved here 21:38:11 Can't coerce array into hash at unl2c.pl line 66. 21:38:12 ;_____________________; 21:39:42 maybe the array is not of the right format? 21:40:05 nah, you can coerce even an array of the wrong format into a hash, normally 21:40:10 although it gives warnings 21:40:42 print $self->{delegates},"\n"; 21:40:42 foreach (@$self->{delegates}) { 21:40:43 -> 21:40:46 ARRAY(0x181c8b4) 21:40:48 Not an ARRAY reference at unl2c.pl line 15. 21:40:49 FAIL 21:40:51 :( 21:41:03 @{$self->{delegates}} 21:41:07 you fail at operator precedence 21:41:18 hmm. No, I think Perl does in that case 21:41:28 ehird: what should $$self->{delegates} do? 21:41:39 um. shoot the programmer? 21:41:40 now, claim with a straight face that @ and $ should have different precedences 21:42:05 ais523, what is $$? 21:42:22 AnMaster: $ means lots of things 21:42:28 but all to do with scalars 21:42:33 and $$? 21:42:38 Using a hash as a reference is deprecated at unl2c.pl line 94. 21:42:40 AnMaster: that's two separate $s 21:42:42 so what am I meant to do, retardoperl 21:42:46 ${%Object_proto}? 21:42:47 puh-leez 21:42:49 ehird: what are you trying to do? 21:42:50 that makes no sense 21:42:57 you can't dereference a hash, it isn't a pointer 21:43:01 ais523: it's kind of complicated and it involves tied hashes. 21:43:02 that's like trying to dereference an int 21:43:02 and FWIW, it works. 21:43:10 %Object_proto->{delegations} _actually works_ 21:43:14 i'm not kidding 21:43:18 ais523, hm I just had an idea: a lisp language with list as the ONLY datatype, no integers no #t or #f, no strings 21:43:26 no floats 21:43:31 you need atoms. 21:43:39 ehird, hm why? 21:43:41 i guess you could hack them with a bunch of nils. 21:43:47 yes :D 21:43:54 AnMaster: there's no list in lisp 21:43:58 there's cons cells and nil 21:44:03 so, you have two datatypes, right off the bat 21:44:07 ehird, right true, so cons and nil 21:44:11 or no 21:44:21 ais523: so how can I do %Object_proto->{data} without perl whining 21:44:23 just cons, and instead of nil you have another node 21:44:25 like the first one 21:44:38 ehird, what do you think about that? 21:44:41 ehird: it's whining because that is deliberately deprecated 21:44:46 what, exactly, are you trying to do? 21:44:54 ais523: i've told you 21:44:57 it's a tied hash 21:45:02 I'm trying to access its internal object data. 21:45:12 put the internal data as a key in the hash 21:45:13 there _has_ to be a way without getting a warning 21:45:15 i'm sure of it 21:45:16 ais523: FAIL 21:45:19 that's not the reccomended way 21:45:23 and it's not how perl's code examples do it 21:45:28 well, you have to store it somewhere 21:45:29 and it's also brittle if that key ever comes up in user code 21:45:30 where are you storing it? 21:45:31 AnMaster: well then you need pointer equality to be able to distinguish anything 21:45:34 ais523: yes, inside the hash's object 21:45:36 that's how tied hashes work 21:45:51 "the hash's object" 21:45:53 that is the hash 21:45:53 oerjan, a built in form? 21:45:56 ais523: nope. 21:46:02 read perldoc perltie, plz 21:46:07 oerjan, ok I guess cons and nil then 21:46:10 or wait... is it tied to an object that is also a hash? 21:46:40 AnMaster: _everything_ would be x = (x . x) in structure otherwise 21:46:43 ais523: sortof 21:46:53 oerjan, true 21:48:32 ehird: googling implies that $Object_proto->{data} is equivalent 21:48:36 ah, OK 21:48:36 although I'm not sure if I believe it 21:48:39 thanks 21:48:45 and that the fact the original was working is a bug in the parser 21:49:07 does that do the same thing? 21:49:11 gonna try in a sec 21:49:19 @foo[1..-1] is the list resulting the same except without the first element? 21:49:22 or is -1 wrong 21:49:37 I think -1 is the last element 21:49:41 IIRC, 1.. works 21:49:46 ah OK 21:49:48 but I haven't tried, I might have confused it with Haskell 21:49:49 Global symbol "$Object_proto" requires explicit package name at unl2c.pl line 94. 21:50:00 i'll just ask #perl and be shunned 21:50:02 ehird: so the Googling was wrong, I thought it looked fishy 21:50:15 21:50 so... don't ask... but how can I use a hash as a reference in a way that doesn't cause perl to spew a warning at me? 21:50:29 i predict an answer involving "no warnings;" 21:50:33 or "no strict;" or w/e 21:50:45 21:50 ehird: no. 21:50:46 21:50 mauke: but-but-but- 21:50:52 ah 21:50:56 $Object_proto{data} 21:50:58 21:50 ehird: ....If it's spitting a warning out at you, you're doing it wrong 21:50:58 21:51 bloo: probably. how do I do it right? 21:51:02 ais523: no, that's wrong too 21:51:08 or does that mean something else? 21:51:10 that's a regular hash object 21:51:13 they're equivalent on untied hashes, it seems 21:51:15 21:51 perldoc perlreftut 21:51:15 21:51 I think. 21:51:23 April fools day idea: #perl stops being a haven for condescending idiots. 21:51:30 Hahahahaha! 21:51:59 perl -Mwarnings -Mstrict -e'my %a = ( a => 1); print %a->{a},"\n"' prints 1, for instance 21:52:02 hrm, $Object_proto{data} works, which is a bug 21:52:13 ehird: not a bug at all 21:52:18 it's a bug in my code 21:52:19 is what I mean 21:52:20 you're storing data inside the hash itself 21:52:23 yes, I know 21:52:25 I knew you would be, there was nowhere else 21:52:40 I just have to figure out how to get the hash to give me access to a secret area of vip quality. 21:53:04 21:52 ehird: Don't feel bad, some times I do shit in perl that shouldn't work but does 21:54:36 Also, 21:54:37 elsif (defined $obj->{_unknown}) { 21:54:38 @_ = (@_[0], $name, @_[1..]); 21:54:40 goto &$obj->{_unknown}; 21:54:42 } 21:54:56 I don't think any of this code should work, but it does. 21:55:16 why shouldn't that work? 21:55:28 splice on @_ would be more idiomatic than that, though 21:55:29 what does it do 21:55:37 ehird, show them your whole file 21:55:38 :D 21:55:40 in #perl 21:55:41 although I can never remember which arg to splice does what 21:56:02 ehird, also what about using the C API to do it in some strange way? 21:56:13 AnMaster: no, and no 21:56:23 why no at the second :( 21:56:40 want pure perl? 21:56:45 if yes it's okay 21:56:51 ehird, then why no at the first? 21:57:03 because it isn't _that_ crazy, just a bit fucked 21:57:17 ehird, um? 21:57:29 I thought you said a lot was _THAT_ crazy even 21:57:36 "I'm not mad, I'm a scientist!" 21:57:45 oerjan, hah 21:57:56 oerjan, sounds like mezzacotta? 21:58:16 I don't think the mezzacottan scientist ever said exactly that, but I might be wrong 21:58:34 ais523, very possible 21:58:44 ais523, also have you checked the whole history XD 21:58:44 he got pretty close 21:58:51 after all, I have quite a lot of mezzacotta backlog to catch up on 21:59:00 meh, you made that joke first 21:59:09 ais523, yes 21:59:44 hrrm why does the mezzacotta comic have scrollbars some days 21:59:46 that's strange 21:59:53 statistically speaking, nothing has been said yet, the combinatorial explosion is visible in natural language as well. 22:00:00 zooming in and then out removes it 22:00:29 it's SVG 22:00:36 oerjan, yes and? 22:00:38 I use firefox 22:00:42 oklopol 22:00:43 what? 22:00:44 lol 22:00:46 so why shouldn't it display just fine inline 22:00:55 did you mention this earlier? if not i think someone else did 22:01:16 oerjan, um? 22:01:26 psygnisfive: what what? 22:01:32 i have a sense someone mentioned scrollbars before 22:02:02 anyway i don't see it, so it's something about how firefox displays them i guess 22:02:07 what did you mean "statistically speaking, nothing has been said yet, ..."? 22:02:20 oerjan, they only happens sometimes 22:02:28 oerjan, what browser do you use? 22:02:33 IE7 22:02:34 psygnisfive: well what percentage would you estimate has been said of all 10 word sentences for instance? 22:02:38 oerjan, poor you 22:02:43 i'll venture 0%, maybe negative. 22:03:06 oklopol, I think close to 0% 22:03:21 but positive 22:03:29 oklopol: in fact the word ligwotnigafebrble has probably been mentioned only once 22:03:49 um 22:03:55 oerjan: that too, but i find that a less interesting observation. 22:04:21 if you can make up any word of any length then the number of possible 10 word sentences is infinite 22:04:27 and that means some number / inf 22:04:34 I have no clue what that ends up as 22:04:37 maybe oerjan know? 22:04:41 0 22:04:41 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:04:44 oerjan, ah 22:04:58 basic probability 22:05:00 oerjan, what sort if infinite is all possible words in all possible languages? 22:05:01 oh oerjan, btw 22:05:16 oerjan, aleph-0? 22:05:23 well the character set would be an issue 22:05:25 was reading the algo book, which for some reason introduces probabilities and shit in the last chapter 22:05:37 your measure theory explanation was pretty useful there 22:05:40 oerjan, in "all possible" I said 22:05:59 if there are more than countably many possible characters, you get more than that 22:06:03 talked about measuring probabilities in continuous sample spaces 22:06:12 oerjan, is there? 22:06:31 i'm not sure the question even has meaning 22:06:47 just warning you i'll probably want another wikipedia lecture at some point! :P 22:07:36 you need some mathematical representation of "all possible languages" to even begin to answer it, but "all possible" might force you outside that... 22:07:51 so a paradox 22:08:05 hah, owned by math 22:08:11 kicked your ass 22:09:47 well semantics more than math, perhaps 22:10:56 oerjan, Why? 22:10:56 or: Why not? 22:10:56 choose yourself. 22:11:23 I'm happy with that 22:11:24 now if we assume something more limited, such as something representable as a subset of the plane, you can limit it 22:11:31 but then remains a single question: 22:12:02 (beth-2 or less, i think) 22:12:04 Why? (no not why anything specific, but just a plain "why") 22:12:31 oerjan, "beth-2"? 22:12:44 2^(2^aleph_0) 22:12:47 ah 22:14:13 with pictures satisfying any kind of niceness requirement, that will probably drop to beth-1 22:14:49 oklopol! 22:14:53 (closed sets, say) 22:14:56 with regard to your percentages 22:15:22 oerjan, that is 2^aleph_0? 22:15:24 hold the newsreaders nose squarely, water, or friendly milk with countermand my trousers 22:15:29 that's beth-1 22:15:47 beth-(n+1) = 2^(beth-n) 22:15:47 waiter** 22:15:51 well, I asked if 2^aleph_0 == beth-1 or not? 22:16:01 so yes 22:16:20 oh 22:16:28 my eyes read that as what 22:16:52 *"that" as "what" 22:17:38 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 22:17:57 psygnisfive: what's countermand? 22:18:12 oh 22:18:13 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/countermand 22:18:21 it's a real world word i didn't know. 22:18:26 well this is embarrassing. 22:18:32 :P 22:18:41 well, it doesn't make any sense in psygnisfive's sentence 22:18:41 i did somewhat reverse-engineer it though 22:18:43 despite being a real word 22:19:04 for that matter, the rest of the sentence makes no sense either 22:19:18 ais523, you clearly have never seen this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHQ2756cyD8 22:19:22 and yet, he insisted on correcting water 22:19:28 correct, I can't access Youtube 22:19:46 shame shame 22:19:52 its a hilarious little video 22:20:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 22:20:46 ais523, why not? 22:21:09 AnMaster: no Flash 22:21:12 nor do I want to install it 22:21:24 ais523, mplayer? 22:21:30 then use youtube-dl 22:21:48 ais523, also where is ick's darcs atm? 22:21:54 AnMaster: on my hard drive 22:22:04 ever since eso-std.org went down, I've had nowhere to host it 22:22:04 ais523, want some hosting for it? 22:22:13 could be useful 22:22:38 ais523, gcc-bf would be too big with gcc source included however, but ick repo should be find 22:22:41 fine* 22:22:43 let me set it up 22:22:53 you know 22:22:54 in the future 22:23:18 some crazy esolanger is going to geneer a sexually transmitted disease 22:23:26 ais523: it makes perfect sense when you s/with/will/ 22:23:28 and eso-std.org will have new meaning. 22:23:31 just letting you know. 22:24:01 ais523, adduser want to know full name, I guess from a whois it is "(this is obviously not my real name)"? 22:24:09 ;P 22:24:11 well it did originally too, but it didn't really parse 22:24:36 and don't any of you dare parse it now, i already failed once today. 22:25:05 too late 22:25:29 yay, the damn kids are getting off my lawn. 22:25:31 where by lawn I mean server. 22:25:46 ais523, I need your public ssh key since password auth is turned off 22:25:50 got yourself thrown off? 22:26:11 -!- FireFly has quit ("'till morning"). 22:26:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:26:15 by the way psygnisfive 22:26:16 sigh 22:26:18 that video is muted 22:26:22 due to copyright infringement :P 22:26:25 it seems 22:26:32 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:26:35 ais523, 22:26:39 ais523, I need your public ssh key since password auth is turned off 22:26:43 yes, I received 22:26:49 ais523, not the other way 22:26:51 ehird: what?! its never been in the past 22:26:52 >.< 22:26:57 well im sure you can find another version 22:27:07 wasn't muted 22:27:12 but couldn't send for some reason 22:27:12 it's in id_rsa.pub, isn't it? 22:27:20 ais523, yes 22:27:23 January 2009: Youtube starts seriously getting rid of copyright infringements 22:27:23 put it in /msg 22:27:45 February 2009: Youtube loses 90% of users 22:27:46 what it's only january still? 22:28:08 * oklopol is stunnered 22:28:18 oerjan: another story time? :D 22:28:21 ais523, stop timing out all the time 22:28:25 oh dear no 22:28:33 :< 22:28:40 AnMaster: received it yet? 22:28:45 also, this was a real world prediction 22:28:54 * ais523 wonders wtf's up with their connection 22:29:05 fgf 22:29:10 16 seconds to ping myself 22:29:17 apparently it took AnMaster 30 seconds to ping me 22:29:46 well i don't see any use for youtube except to see copyrighted shit. and most good shit is copyrighted 22:30:10 22:29 how can I "temporarily untie" a var? 22:30:10 22:29 without doing untie/tie 22:30:12 22:29 the answer is "no" 22:30:16 #perl thinks they're really clever. 22:30:22 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 22:30:54 isn't that more of a prolog answer, really? 22:31:22 ehird what are you trying to do now?? 22:31:32 psygnisfive: i'm implementing an OOP system in perl. shush 22:31:37 ehird: simple, you use a localised typeglob, like we worked out in /msg 22:31:39 ah x.x 22:31:41 perl.. x.x 22:31:43 ais523: no. 22:31:45 I tried that. 22:31:47 it didn't work. 22:31:54 why not? 22:32:09 I thought you said it did 22:32:17 http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2009/01/14advisory.html uhoh 22:32:53 UH OH 22:33:00 steve is dying :O 22:33:02 ooooooooooooo 22:33:04 quite. 22:33:24 or hes having problems with a meth addiction 22:33:26 lol, google muted the rick roll 22:33:31 priceless 22:33:38 ehird: for being copyrighted? 22:33:40 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 22:33:40 yep 22:33:45 classic 22:33:54 it was all an elaborate scheme leading to this 22:34:56 ... wait apparently it isn't actually muted 22:35:01 huh 22:35:09 my Flash is playing up... 22:35:26 haha ehird :) 22:35:30 yeah right, you're just making up these muting stories so we'd get rickrolled by your link. 22:35:33 no, seriously psygnisfive 22:35:37 it's silent for me 22:35:38 XD 22:35:42 by playing up do you mean you accidentally had it muted yourself? ;) 22:35:47 no 22:35:51 the volume is on full on it 22:35:53 and this machine 22:35:58 it just isn't making any sound 22:35:58 uh huh 22:36:04 SO YOU SAY SIR, SO YOU SAY. 22:36:09 ...what, astley has *other songs* too?!? 22:36:13 i'm not lying okay psygnisfive 22:36:17 oklopol dont you have to go somewhere? 22:36:27 ehird: obviously not. you're lying poorly, ehird. POORLY! 22:36:31 psygnisfive: well sleep. 22:36:38 oh. well. sleep, feh. 22:36:40 psygnisfive: STOP IT I HATE NOT BEING BELIEVED WHEN I'M NOT LYING >__< 22:36:41 just drink some coffee. 22:36:58 ehird: stop hating it and i'll stop not believing you. 22:37:02 but i actually won't. 22:37:18 perl sux 22:37:22 and i love it 22:37:23 and it sux. 22:37:35 haha 22:37:35 feel free to apply that to new exciting contexts. 22:38:12 Four weeks after birthing a nationwide Wikipedia edit ban, Britain's child porn blacklist has led at least one ISP to muzzle the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine - an 85 billion page web history dating back to 1996. 22:38:15 /facepalm 22:38:23 WFM, thank god 22:38:34 what is this now? 22:38:36 sooo guys where should I escape to from this hellhole? 22:38:38 wait 22:38:41 ehird: Tor 22:38:44 brits arent allowed to edit wiki anymore? 22:38:46 sourced from a different country 22:38:48 psygnisfive: only for a bit 22:38:51 wtf? 22:38:52 it wasn't an aren't allowed 22:38:54 thats insane 22:39:10 basically, what happened was that lots of ISPs used proxies to implement the blacklist 22:39:15 routing all the traffic from the UK through about 6 IPs 22:39:26 ais523: "How can I escape from Oceania?" "Talk in pig latin!" 22:39:29 how would wikipedia and the wayback machine have anything to do with child porn?! 22:39:39 *pignewspeak 22:39:46 which meant that there was no way to distinguish legitimate users from vandals 22:39:51 psygnisfive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Killer 22:39:51 and the UK got blocked by mistake a lot 22:39:55 which is the page that was blocked 22:39:57 but, what ais523 22:39:57 it happened to Qatar once 22:39:58 said 22:40:01 for the edit block 22:40:08 oubleday usplay ungooday 22:40:14 Wikipedia doesn't cope well with entire countries having only a few IPs 22:40:38 oh i see, so what you mean ais is not that BRITAIN banned people from editting WIKI 22:40:49 it's called wikipedia 22:40:51 but rather britain implemented measures that made it impossible for wiki to verify idents 22:41:02 which resulted in non-editting privs only 22:41:02 yes, and all brits got banned by mistake every now and then 22:41:03 so guys i'm thinking like, Norway? 22:41:09 yeah ok 22:41:12 interesting :o 22:41:15 oerjan: how's it in Norway with yer civil liberties, and your fjords? 22:41:23 not to mention the limit that only 6 users could register per IP per day made it rather hard for everyone to log in 22:41:37 FJORDS 22:41:49 you know 22:42:06 americans seem to have an enormously difficult time pronouncing things that look, at first, like they're foreign 22:42:13 consonant+j for instance 22:42:47 like.. tokyo. toh-key-oh 22:43:13 its not as tho english doesnt have the sequence "ky" /kj/ as it is 22:43:52 i once heard an american say "bjarnum" as "buh-jar-num" because she couldnt get the bj right 22:44:02 even tho english has the bj sequence! 22:44:05 *sigh* 22:44:06 she couldnt get the bj right 22:44:12 well its true 22:44:18 you have to use your tongue 22:44:23 move it around just right you know 22:45:02 in circles around the head of the cock, you see. 22:46:48 -!- olsner has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:47:23 ehird: the fjords are nice 22:47:34 fjords are cool 22:47:42 im not really sure what fjords ARE, but they're cool 22:48:39 ahh 22:48:51 a long narrow inlet with steep sides, created by glacial activity 22:48:51 norway does have a cp blacklist though afair 22:48:52 huh! 22:53:35 hrm 22:53:47 AHA 22:56:25 grmmm 22:56:29 ais523: kill me i hate perl 22:59:50 ehird why are you doing this in perl? 22:59:58 because i want to, psygnisfive 23:00:15 clearly it would be far too easy in anything else 23:03:30 Reference found where even-sized list expected at unl2c.pl line 61. 23:03:31 SHUT UP 23:04:54 even so. 23:07:58 thats not really what i meant but ok :) 23:08:23 psygnisfive: 23:08:23 ? 23:08:28 perl is fun 23:08:30 it's eso. 23:08:36 perl isnt eso 23:08:38 its mainstream 23:08:41 and its ugly 23:08:49 it's mainstream, but it's eso 23:08:51 and it's not ugly 23:08:58 the only way in which it might be eso is in its ugliness 23:09:02 and uselessness 23:09:07 the only thing I glean from your past two lines is that you're the typical ruby fanatic who's never used perl but dislikes it anyway 23:09:10 hmm, wait a second, you are! 23:09:17 ive used perl, thanks. 23:09:23 yeah. sure you have. 23:09:36 and im not really a ruby fanatic. its just convenient for me to dev in 23:09:46 im more of a scheme fanatic. :P 23:09:49 ais523: can you pick up the argument from here I lost interest. 23:10:08 no, it's too late, I need to go home very soon 23:10:17 IT'S NEVER TOO LATE TO DEFEND PERL 23:10:52 ehird theres no argument 23:10:56 i just dont like perl 23:11:16 so don't talk about my usage of it 23:11:32 i was merely wondering why you were doing this with perl 23:13:23 hmm ais523 23:13:26 is there a nicer way to phrase this 23:13:38 @{[$foo, @{$bar}]} 23:13:43 where $bar is an arrayref and $foo is a hash 23:13:51 ($foo, $bar) makes it a hash 23:13:54 err 23:13:55 *@$bar 23:14:00 I guess (@$bar, $foo) might work 23:14:04 but that's the wrong way around :p 23:14:08 ($foo, $bar) isn't intrinsically either a hash or an array, I think 23:14:43 wait... I want a hash 23:14:44 duh 23:14:45 stupid me 23:15:15 return %{$self->{data}}, map {%$_} @{$self->{delegations}}; 23:15:18 am I a bad person? 23:15:20 yes. 23:18:57 Returns a reference to the object underlying VARIABLE (the same value that was originally returned by the tie call that bound the variable to a package.) Returns the undefined value if VARIABLE isn't tied to a package. 23:18:59 AHA!! 23:26:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 23:39:52 -!- amca has joined. 23:41:37 -!- amca has quit (Client Quit). 23:49:43 -!- Corun has left (?). 2009-01-15: 00:04:05 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 00:10:42 hey 02:07:52 -!- MizardX has quit ("Blue squares floting about..."). 02:10:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 02:11:52 -!- MizardX has joined. 04:16:13 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 06:58:46 -!- Slereah has joined. 07:10:10 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:18:06 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:34 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 08:59:58 -!- lament has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:00:22 -!- lament has joined. 09:00:59 ehird, how did the OO stuff work out? 09:01:31 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:18:27 -!- jix has joined. 10:25:35 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:14:18 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 12:17:35 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:17:11 hi oerjan 13:17:28 (if anyone claims I'm an hour late on that, I'll mumble something about time zones, or DST, or something.) 13:17:41 time dilation. works for me. 13:17:43 and hi 13:18:07 grr... RL business is annoying 13:18:14 especially when it involves VHDL 13:18:17 even though I like VHDL 13:19:39 no, no, RL _business_ is annoying 13:19:53 accounting, cash flow problems, that sort of thing. 13:20:02 hmm... I wonder if busyness is a real word? 13:20:09 or if business is actually the way it's spelt 13:20:20 but agreed, both meanings are pretty annoying 13:20:56 http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/busyness has it 13:22:46 the entry on business claims it's archaic to use it to mean "busyness" 13:30:38 OED lists 'business': "I. State or quality of being busy. (Cf. the adj.) -- (These senses are all obs., but some of them occur as nonce-words with special spelling BUSYNESS, and trisyllabic pronunciation.)" 13:33:34 \ul ((\ul )SaSaS(:^)S)((^ul )SaSaS(:^)S):^ 13:33:52 not that I expect that to run, gunfot isn't here 13:33:57 but I still like looking at it 13:34:24 hi ais523 13:34:31 hi 13:49:55 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 13:52:47 -!- jix has joined. 14:00:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 14:41:27 -!- Hiato has joined. 14:56:56 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 15:08:16 mysql_connect() Connects to a MySQL server (this function is deprecated; use mysql_real_connect() instead) 15:08:17 heh 15:08:21 interesting naming scheme 15:08:36 what if they find out they need a third version of the call in the future? 15:09:05 mysql_very_real_connect()? mysql_surreal_connect()? 15:09:11 mysql_actually_connect_this_time 15:09:21 heh 15:09:36 what lang is that function in? 15:09:45 ais523, The C API for mysql 15:09:56 [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ehird: 1232032186 seconds. 15:09:58 hi ehird 15:10:04 hi ais523 15:10:07 although something's up with that pingtime 15:10:09 holy crap 15:10:12 how did that happen 15:10:14 did you ping me like hours ago? 15:10:18 if so I was offline, and I guess my bouncer phailed at ponging 15:10:19 no, that's more than hours 15:10:23 that's years, or so 15:10:27 ha 15:10:41 probably my bouncer decided to play tricks with you 15:10:42 I pinged you when offline, and got an away message 15:10:44 ais523, oh btw postgres' API works better for this: PGconn *PQconnectdb(const char *conninfo); <-- conninfo is a key=value space separated options string 15:10:45 AFAICT, when you came online your bouncer ponged me back, but with the wrong number 15:10:47 somehow 15:10:48 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:10:57 sqlite uses _v2 _v3 and so on 15:11:13 AnMaster: key=value string isn't really very Cy 15:11:14 anyway, my object system is >100 lines and it still doesn't work properly yet 15:11:17 umm... C-ey 15:11:20 or whatever 15:11:22 C-like 15:11:29 ais523, true, but easier to add new features too 15:11:30 "MYSQL *mysql_real_connect(MYSQL *mysql, const char *host, const char *user, const char *passwd, const char *db, unsigned int port, const char *unix_socket, unsigned long client_flag)" 15:11:30 basically, I have a tied hash that delegates to other objects, that you bless with a proxy object. 15:11:43 ais523, true, but easier to add new features too 15:11:50 didn't berkley sockets teach you anything? 15:11:52 structs 15:11:57 ehird, yes I agree 15:12:16 of course, berkeley sockets _is_ awful, but it is very C 15:12:44 wow, I was tired while printf debugging yesterday 15:12:44 print"yo, ... in da klub ;-)\n"; 15:13:21 btw, if you guys ever are coding perl 15:13:22 and think 15:13:26 "ooh, I could solve this with a tied hash nicely" 15:13:27 just 15:13:28 kill yourself 15:13:38 it's way better than the alternative 15:14:37 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:14:41 MySQL's C API make very little sense. Compared to PostgreSQL and SQLite APIs 15:14:53 mysql makes little sense. 15:14:56 sql makes little sense. 15:14:59 the relational model makes little sense. 15:15:19 ehird, agreed for the first. And well SQL does have problems, but I have yet to see something widespread that is better 15:15:33 widespread is quite irrelevant. 15:15:40 and SQL, amusingly, isn't even relational-model-sane. 15:15:46 true it isn't 15:16:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codd%27s_12_rules 15:16:12 "that system must use its relational facilities (exclusively)" 15:16:14 ding, mysql fails 1 15:16:22 "All information in the database is to be represented in one and only one way, namely by values in column positions within rows of tables." 15:16:27 ding, i'm almost certain mysql provides other ways 15:16:28 2 15:16:43 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 15:16:57 ehird, you mean like views? 15:16:58 [[All views that are theoretically updatable must be updatable by the system. ]] 15:17:03 I don't know if mysql does this 15:17:10 sql probably does 15:17:15 but, whatever 15:17:17 nobody implements SQL 15:17:19 sql isn't relational 15:17:21 mysql less so 15:17:24 ais523: no, these aren't SQL rules 15:17:27 these are relational rules 15:17:27 ehird, oh writable views, hm I know SQLite docs says it is one of the missing features in SQLite 15:17:30 written by the guy who invented the model 15:17:40 SQL fails a lot of thme 15:17:42 MySQL fails even more 15:17:46 indeed 15:17:49 and the best part is that the relational model isn't even good 15:17:51 they fail at failing,. 15:18:19 what would be funny was if MySQL failed in a way that made it better than correct SQL. Sadly it doesn't do that 15:18:46 oh the irony of missing irony 15:20:39 "All information in the database is to be represented in one and only one way, namely by values in column positions within rows of tables." <-- apart from views and stored procedures, the only way I could think of would be that the result can be fetched both by column position in the result and by column name 15:20:46 in sql in general 15:20:56 don't know if mysql provides other ways? 15:21:09 s/?$// 15:29:17 -!- oklopol has joined. 15:31:00 -!- |MigoMipo| has joined. 15:31:29 -!- |MigoMipo| has quit (Client Quit). 15:34:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:46:56 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 15:59:21 GRR 15:59:22 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:59:22 A TARBOMB 15:59:30 * ehird considers writing a script that checks for tarbombs and contains them 15:59:37 ehird: why didn't you untar it in a separate directory/ 15:59:47 because normally I assume people aren't bozo 15:59:48 s 16:00:09 ehird: that's often an unsafe assumption 16:00:16 yes, but it keeps me sane 16:08:11 * ehird considers writing a lisp parser that mirrors the structure of the lisp it's parsing. 16:09:07 LOL, someone complained that jquery's api docs don't work with noscript. 16:13:53 haha 16:14:19 Tone down the nerd humor, I'm back 16:14:39 ehird: why should the API docs require JavaScript to read? 16:14:43 that's a valid complaint 16:14:53 especially as I often load up API docs in w3m whilst programming 16:14:53 ais523: it's a _javascript api_ 16:15:03 if you're programming something with javascript, you have javascript enabled to test it 16:15:10 ehird: but that's in your test window 16:15:17 it's not in your text editor window 16:15:22 the complaint is valid to a degree... but funny anyway 16:15:34 ais523: it's a good thing the jquery api docs isn't text editor-integrated, then 16:16:09 ehird: no, it isn't 16:16:19 i meant for the example you gave. 16:16:19 with most API docs, I can work around using a tabbed shell, or with Emacs 16:16:35 also, I use a text editor to edit text, not look up apis,. 16:16:35 I don't see why API docs should arbitrarily prevent themselves being loaded in a text editor 16:16:37 or play tetris. 16:16:45 ehird: well, I don't use my editor for Tetris 16:16:52 but looking up APIs is a pretty sensible use for them 16:16:55 someone does, because it's in the base distribution 16:16:58 even Microsoft does that, with Intellisense 16:17:10 "Microsoft does it" is not a way to convince me something is a good idea. 16:17:23 I mean, pretty much every editor does nowadays 16:17:27 even vi has syntax higlighting 16:17:37 how is API lookup fundamentally different from syntax higlighting? 16:17:44 it's one of the things needed when programming, unless you have a perfect memory 16:17:48 vi does not have syntax highlighting, as far as I know. 16:17:49 vim does. 16:17:53 well, OK 16:18:00 but vim is essentially emacs-- 16:18:17 but M-x man and M-x perldoc are commands I use all the time when programming 16:18:20 depending on the language 16:18:21 also, syntax highlighting is tied fundamentally to the editor 16:18:29 API docs aren't 16:18:36 ehird: they are very involved with the editor 16:18:44 unless you like doing a lot of cut/paste/search, or retyping 16:18:59 in the VHDL I'm editing atm, I type for and I get an entire generate-for statement template 16:19:03 which in VHDL is not trivial to write by hand 16:19:06 that's not an api document 16:19:08 that's just snippets 16:19:11 yes 16:19:15 APIs are similar, though 16:19:17 not really. 16:19:20 you need to look up which argument's which 16:19:22 i wonder why so many people apparently don't have a desktop environment 16:19:23 if you can't remember 16:19:39 which is, um, _designed_ for passing information between programs concurrently 16:19:57 why pass the information when you can use it without passing? 16:20:05 do you use the mouse for API lookups, by any chance? 16:20:26 no, but I generally don't need API lookups 16:21:09 also, I use the mouse for pinpointing both precise pieces on the screen that would be tedious to access with a keyboard, and large fuzzy areas which would also be tedious with a keyboard 16:21:17 e.g., input field focusing, text selection, window selection 16:21:18 with Mac OS X, I'm surprised that things like API lookups aren't integrated the same way as spell-checkers 16:21:28 they probably are if you use xcode. I don't 16:21:48 ehird: doesn't that make it silly for jquery's API to require JavaScript, then? 16:21:59 what if I'm writing jquery-using code at home without Internet access? 16:22:07 you download the api. 16:22:12 does that require JS? 16:22:13 docs 16:22:20 ais523: it uses adobe air or some shit 16:22:25 what I am saying is: 16:22:37 it isn't bad for the _web version_ of a _javascript api's_ documentation to require javascript 16:22:45 yes, it is 16:22:55 it's bad for the web version of /anything/ to _require_ javascript if possible 16:23:00 demonstrating JS, ok 16:23:09 but other things should fallback gracefully, even if they're very JS-related 16:23:24 would you think it bad for the web version of the Java API to require Java? 16:23:32 (it doesn't, by the way) 16:23:39 yes: java isn't inherently web based. jQuery is. 16:23:45 in the real world javascript is available everywhere.. 16:23:54 ehird: I've written non-web-based computer games in JavaScript 16:24:01 ais523: you wouldn't use jquery for it. 16:24:07 which were entirely client side, and required copy and paste for saving 16:24:10 and no, I wouldn't 16:24:17 but that's just my personal preferences 16:24:17 umm, entirely client side: so it used html? 16:24:20 yep 16:24:27 file:/// to an HTML counts as the web, imo. 16:24:41 well, the lack of any CGI support influenced things somewhat 16:24:44 flexo: yes, some people choose to castrate their browser because of their tin foil hats 16:24:47 the web normally had that 16:24:54 ehird: not just tin foil hats 16:25:06 to avoid all sorts of annoying things that people normally use JS for is at least as valid a reason 16:25:23 so stop going to those sites 16:25:32 i don't know where this mass of annoying JS sites are, because I never come across them. 16:25:37 same here 16:25:40 ehird: do you use an ad-blocker? 16:25:47 nope. 16:25:50 pretty much any random non-tech news site will have annoying JS-based adverts 16:26:00 apart from reputable ones 16:26:10 how about using reputable ones then? 16:26:12 most of the sites I go's ads are inconspicuous and ignorable. the ones that have annoying ones, I DON'T GO TO THOSE SITES! 16:26:22 why would I go to a site that evidently has no respect for me at all? 16:26:24 The reputable ones has flash based ads instead 16:26:26 i wouldn't. 16:26:34 ehird: well, they may still have useful content, I just show no respect for them either 16:26:45 printable versions, adblock, etc are fair game against them 16:27:02 i can get the useful content somewhere that doesn't enjoy pounding me with a giant mass of ads 16:28:18 can you always? 16:28:28 the BancSTAR page has annoying JS ads, for instance 16:28:31 and I don't know of any copies of it 16:28:52 http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Station/2266/tarpit/bancstar.html 16:28:53 I see no ads. 16:29:07 ehird: top-right 16:29:14 your brain must have just got good at filtering them out 16:29:16 Nope. 16:29:19 You're hallucinating. 16:29:19 either that, or your browser 16:29:28 I can even send you a screenshot if you like 16:29:32 * ehird looks at html source. 16:29:43 Okay, the ad uses . 16:29:49 I guess it's so old Safari can't run it. 16:29:52 That's fine by me. 16:30:20 * ais523 opens in Konqueror out of interest 16:30:35 yep, no ad in Konq 16:30:48 so it's a WebKit vs. Gecko/Trident thing 16:30:59 Incidentally, I used to use an ad blocker. But the web looks nicer without it: tasteful ads are placed into page layouts in a way that makes it look like an odd unbalance if you block them. 16:31:00 (I'm almost convinced the ad shows in IE, or they'd never have put it there) 16:33:13 Is it just the regular geocities ad? 16:33:22 If so, yeah, that's annoying. But it has a close button at the top, 16:34:48 No pasting, not even "only one line" -- #perl topic 16:34:53 what, you can't put single lines in #per 16:34:54 l 16:35:14 hmph, they even got rid of gumbyBRAIN. I liked that bot. 16:35:17 #perl sux 16:37:36 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:39:33 And enabling Javascript is a security risk. Especially if you browse nonreputable sites or sites containing certain (very common) kinds of external ads... 16:40:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:40:44 Plus some sites do quite nasty-looking stuff with javascript. 16:41:02 Ilari: 1) Don't go to those sites. 2) Really, like what? 16:41:26 The only vaguely scary thing I have seen done with JS is aza raskin's socialhistory.js, and that's just a _bug_, really... plus it isn't even really practical 16:41:51 ehird: unclosable websites? 16:42:11 geez, do people here just browse serial key sites all day? 16:42:13 that's really what it sounds like 16:42:39 ehird: I'm thinking more malicious links 16:42:52 lik 16:42:53 e 16:44:22 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:44:36 And "Don't go to those sites" extends to sites like Youtube (selective javascript blocking capabilities of Noscript come handy there)? 16:44:46 I don't go to Youtube at all 16:44:54 I don't have Flash installed, for one 16:44:56 Ilari: umm, what annoying things does youtube do with js? 16:45:29 ehird: play videos 16:45:50 ais523: we know you dislike youtube. 16:45:52 I was asking Ilari. 16:46:07 ehird: Youtube was given as example where Javascript does bad things to security (even if you trust Youtube). Some other sites do annoying things with js. 16:46:18 "bad things to security"? 16:46:24 This vagueness is not very interesting 16:46:49 ehird: pretty much any browser is less secure with Flash enabled than without 16:46:59 cross-platform critical vulnerabilities pop up every now and then 16:47:05 I'm not sure how this relates to JS, though 16:47:06 Thannnk you. Go away. I'm talking about JavaScript. Stop talking about how much youtube sucks... 16:47:21 ais523: I don't have flash installed either... :-) 16:47:45 tbh, I don't even miss YouTube 16:47:55 I have a TV at home, but rarely use it 16:48:21 Area Man Constantly Mentioning He Doesn't Have Flash Installed 16:48:30 -!- jix has joined. 16:49:04 s/Javascript does bad things to security/where having Javascript unconditionally enabled degrades security/ 16:49:19 Yes, I recall asking for examples... 16:49:23 I also recall not getting them 16:49:45 ehird: Clickjacking? 16:50:02 Elaborate 16:50:11 ehird: basically it consists of using JS and iframes 16:50:16 some website that does not use javascript has a bug that allows anyone to insert malicious content ... for example a javascript that makes you do something on that site (submit form whatever) that does harm to you in some way 16:50:34 jix: no, not that, that's something else 16:50:40 that's xss. 16:50:45 although I agree that can be a problem, JS security normally avoids that nowadays 16:50:49 xss is the fault of incompetent server-side developers 16:50:56 who don't check for the origin of such requests 16:51:02 ehird: you have to admit that XSS is blocked completely by turning off JS, though 16:51:12 ... 16:51:21 ais523: you can't get viruses if you turn off your computer! 16:51:24 and yes, XSS is caused by incompetent website designers; but likewise, browser security holes are caused by incompetent browser designers 16:51:31 you have to strike a balance somewhere 16:52:16 hmm... irrelevant to the current argument, but http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/836068 looks interesting 16:52:25 old. 16:52:33 Nobody competent has used md5 for years, anyway. 16:52:34 Combine external Javascript and nasty stuff JS can do (and I'm not talking about trying-to-run-malware-nasty), and it can get real nasty. 16:52:34 well, that's within the last 3 weeks 16:52:50 md5 has been known imperfect for a while, but that's the first practical exploitation of it I've seen 16:52:52 your hypotheticals are amusing. are you unable to provide examples? 16:53:01 ehird: well, I was going to explain clickjacking 16:53:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clickjacking does it better than I could, though, probably 16:53:50 ok, that's a browser bug 16:54:12 ehird: in what way would you suggest modifying browsers to avoid it without losing functionality? 16:54:24 also, I prefer not to assume my browser is 100% bugfree, even though it isn't IE 16:54:36 not let sites interact with embedded pages on other sites 16:54:43 this is already done to a large degree 16:54:54 that's just another aspect that has to be stopped, simple enough... 16:55:34 ehird: how is clickjacking a browser bug 16:55:51 ehird: also, I point out that JS adverts are exactly the sort of thing that might do that sort of thing 16:55:58 in which case it isn't an "other site" 16:56:04 jix: they allow a site to cause an interaction with an embedded component on another site in a way that hasn't been accounted for 16:56:11 "another site"? 16:56:23 what if it's an interaction between a website and its own adverts? 16:56:30 cross-domain scripting rules. 16:56:32 which are hosted there, but haven't been properly checked for security 16:56:37 ehird: what do you mean cross-domain? 16:56:42 "a website and its own adverts" 16:56:54 and please don't tell me all advert-loading is done from external servers 16:56:59 although I admit quite a bit of it is 16:57:21 i'll continue this conversation when it takes a turn that doesn't consist of me stating why things can be easily fixed and you asking about every trivial term I'm using that someone talking about browser security should know about 16:57:48 ehird: I'm not saying I don't understand what "cross-domain" means 16:57:55 I'm saying that this will not always be cross-domain in practice 16:57:56 ehird: then you might fix the wikipedia page which states it isn't a browser bug 16:57:59 and you're assuming it is for some reason 16:58:23 if a site causes a user to delete all the mail they host in the same site, umm, that's the site's fault 16:58:32 yes, but it still affects the user 16:58:33 they could easily do it by, you know, just automatically deleting them 16:58:43 your problem seems to be that you're assuming all the websites you use are 100% perfect 16:58:46 and on 16:58:47 *no 16:58:57 normally, the advertising division of a website != the content division 16:59:09 and they both put more or less their own stuff on the same page 16:59:11 so the advertising devision hates the mail devision 16:59:18 the advertising division is often relatively easily tricked by outsiders 16:59:19 and wants users to delete all their mail via their ads 16:59:28 there were quite a few adverts spreading Storm, recently, for instance 16:59:39 if the ad people are 100% perfect, no problem 16:59:55 in practice, they're quite easily persuaded to do something obnoxious by $EVIL_HACKER 17:00:12 which ends up impacting the mail website as a whole and deleting all your mail 17:00:31 (you might say this is unlikely, but IIRC Storm spread via a combination of those methods and exploiting flaws in IE) 17:01:15 ehird: anyway, it seems clickjacking was even used to change the Flash privacy settings to turn on webcam and microphone 17:01:30 that isn't even XSS, or crossdomain, that's affecting local programs on the user's computer 17:01:43 And some sites are probably hosted on computers that are a lot better hardened than the ad servers they reference to via Javascript includes. 17:01:45 that's a flash bug. 17:01:51 we are talking JS. 17:01:59 ehird: it's a combination-of-JS-and-Flash bug 17:02:27 i disagree. 17:02:27 hmm... can JS in a tab focus a different tab? 17:02:31 ah yes, obviously, window.close 17:02:48 so, an evil site can reposition your mouse pointer then close the tab just as it thinks you're about to click 17:02:59 and you click over something dangerous on the tab you visited just before it 17:03:10 a bit unlikely, I suppose, but stranger things have been exploited 17:03:36 Like those file upload control exploits? 17:03:45 ah, yes 17:03:52 I wasn't thinking of those, but it's a similar idea 17:03:59 those definitely are browser bugs, though 17:04:07 no way should a file upload box be under website control 17:04:56 is it still possible to sniff auto fill in data using JS? (i think it isn't) but that would be a browser bug too... 17:05:38 It isn't. IIRC, Firefox 2 is vulernable to those exploits. Firefox 3 prevents them by preventing user from editing file upload control path directly. Konqueror isn't vulernable because it prompts before uploading. 17:06:00 That was to ais523 17:07:07 using auto fill-in data is probably a bug in the user. 17:07:17 Ilari: yep, old bug, IIRC they fixed both Mozilla (and Firefox by extension) and Safari before it got publically announced 17:07:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:07:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:07:28 ehird: it's a usefull feature and can be implemented securely 17:07:37 jix: which feature? 17:07:37 yes, but it should be user-triggered 17:07:43 ais523: auto form fillin 17:07:44 instead of filling in forms just like that 17:07:51 you should be able to click, fill in this form 17:08:04 ehird: or it could fill in the form but mark the form as auto filled and unaccesable by scripts 17:08:08 ehird: i think that is how it is done 17:08:17 shrug :P 17:08:22 that could also mess up JS form validation 17:08:25 at least ff 3 marks the filled in forms in yellow until you check them 17:08:33 ehird: JS form validation is ridiculous 17:08:38 and should be repeated server-side, at least 17:08:45 repeated server side: no shit 17:08:50 it should be generated from a model in both cases 17:08:52 having it client-side to warn users slightly earlier is possibly helpful, but dubious 17:08:57 no, it's really helpful 17:09:05 i get it all the time, oops, I messed up that field, so I fix it 17:09:07 instead of doing the whole form 17:09:09 submitting 17:09:11 and getting 10 errors 17:09:13 fixing them 17:09:16 oh, now I have 3 errors 17:09:20 oh, now it works 17:09:26 and really, if you're auto-filling invalid data 17:09:38 then you have a problem, and the extra 2 seconds it takes for server-side validation won't really hurt you 17:09:40 no, you're auto-filling data that is probably valid 17:09:44 websites may disagree. 17:11:56 then they can disagree server-side 17:12:01 rather than messing up your UI 17:12:07 it's not as if that happens very often 17:12:10 'messing up your ui', wtf 17:12:14 even better, have an HTTP response code 17:12:18 i'm ending this conversation because it's ridiculous. 17:12:20 thx 17:12:23 which means "this data is invalid" 17:12:31 so the browser knows something went wrong with the auto-fill 17:12:34 that is outside of http's jurisdiction. 17:12:37 i'm ending this conversation because it's ridiculous. 17:12:38 ehird: I'm not so sure 17:12:42 i'm ending this conversation because it's ridiculous. 17:13:04 ehird: you've been doing a lot of arbitrarily declaring things ridiculous recently 17:13:31 you're welcome. but I've never convinced you of anything, and vice-versa 17:14:17 ooooo 17:14:24 okoko 17:22:57 ehird: http://secunia.com/advisories/search/?search=javascript is a list of JS-related security bugs that have been found, btw 17:23:05 some more serious and more JS-related than others, obviously 17:23:09 software has bugs 17:23:12 this is unsurprising 17:23:20 yes 17:23:23 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:23:39 I'm just surprised that you claim that JS-blocking isn't a good idea, as a result 17:50:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:51:03 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:02:31 Guys 18:02:48 hi Slereah_ 18:02:50 How old is the oldest machine, theoretical or otherwise, with stacks? 18:03:06 I am in a wondery mood 18:03:39 * ais523 wonders if it's before or after the Turing Machine 18:03:54 I suppose steam engines had cooling stacks, but that probably isn't what you meant 18:04:00 Yeah. 18:04:15 Also there prolly isn't a lot before the TM. 18:04:21 oldest machine? 18:04:28 bsmntbombdood: oldest machine with stacks 18:04:38 arguably the TM had two, but it wasn't described like that 18:04:41 a tm isn't a machine 18:04:43 and besides, pushing one popped the other 18:05:04 bsmntbombdood: it's a theoretical machine 18:05:04 which Slereah_ specifically allowed 18:05:05 anyway, it's a stupid question 18:05:08 bsmntbombdood : Yes it is 18:05:10 It's right in the name! 18:05:38 how come every finn uses iki.fi 18:05:47 maybe because it's a good server? 18:05:47 Communism. 18:05:52 They only have one ISP. 18:06:07 no 18:06:10 its not an isp 18:06:14 it forwards URLs and emails 18:06:21 i.e. iki.fi/deewiant goes to users.tkk.fi/blahblahblah 18:08:20 query AnMaster 18:08:26 umm... 18:08:33 query fbi 18:08:35 disregard that 18:08:42 -!- Corun has joined. 18:08:42 xdcc send horse_porn.avi 18:08:43 whoops 18:08:46 I was trying to open a /query with AnMaster to look at my /query logs with him 18:09:19 ais523, ? 18:09:24 ah 18:09:30 AnMaster: checking what that rsync command was 18:09:38 right 18:13:35 well, seems the C-INTERCAL repo is back in business 18:13:38 http://envbot.kuonet.org/~ais523/c-intercal/_darcs/pristine/ for the file tree 18:13:45 http://envbot.kuonet.org/~ais523/c-intercal/ for darcs download 18:25:28 Hmm... Wonder what kind of class would language with no backward jumps allowed, only looping linear in values and with bignums plus builtin hyper operator present... 18:25:39 Ilari: like? 18:26:04 I don't know any examples of such language. It would be obiviously sub-TC... 18:26:15 in moar practical terms? :D 18:27:07 Ilari: isn't that BLooP-class? 18:27:29 it'd be nice to have a bloop-alike, without the explicit specification 18:29:14 Plus of course associative tables for storing data during processing. 18:29:46 ais523: Got URL? Googling turns up lots of unrelated links... 18:30:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlooP_and_FlooP 18:30:58 from Gödel, Escher, Bach 18:31:28 Such language could express function that would have f(1) = 1, f(2) = 4, f(3) = g64 , f(4) = 18:31:50 f(4) = A(g64,g64) 18:31:51 :P 18:32:56 ehird: I don't know how f(4) and A(g64,g64) relate to each other and which is bigger. But one thing is sure: They are both really huge even compared to g64. 18:33:08 what is this f? 18:33:28 Isn't any function theoretically able to be defined like that? 18:33:38 I mean, you could just define it as a primitive 18:35:41 What's all this, you ask? We like weasels. You like weasels. Everyone likes weasels. Our mission: to send weasels wherever people like weasels. And that means everywhere. 18:35:41 Weasel Trek has shipped fifteen plush weasels to hosts all over the world to be photographed, given a taste of local culture, and then sent on to another who shares the weasel way. 18:35:44 http://weaseltrek.com/ 18:36:57 ... 18:37:01 I want one :( 18:37:14 I didn't notice the plush at first 18:37:26 and reading their about I was thinking, wtf, you can buy weasels from ikea? What? 18:37:53 64 times recursed Conway arrow with variable values on sides, starting from four arrows. With x=3, it produces Graham's number. 18:37:58 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pW7opOMStZk Skydiving weasel 18:38:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:45:47 Actually, that language would be more powerful than BlooP, as BlooP expresses functions that are primitive-recursive, but that language could express A(m,n), which is not primitive recursive. 18:53:47 -!- olsner has joined. 19:11:30 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:25:17 -!- Slereah has joined. 19:38:44 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:40:44 nowhere docs the pcm format :( 19:42:50 hiiiiiiii 19:44:59 register int *esp __asm__("%esp"); 19:45:01 that actually works 19:45:02 how cool is that? 19:50:27 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 19:53:33 ehird: http://www.wotsit.org/list.asp?search=pcm 19:54:11 I like the part where neitherresult was the right one 19:54:28 pcm seems to be part of riff 19:55:07 Pulse Code Modulation (PCM) Format 19:55:21 line 3489 of the first document 19:55:34 ehird: iki.fi also offers DNS so that the address of your site can be foo.iki.fi 19:55:46 Deewiant: why does everyone use it? 19:55:54 ehird: it works? 19:56:04 Also: because there are no monthly/yearly payments. 19:56:06 and no, not "everyone" uses it :-P 19:56:11 Just the initial joiningment thing. 19:56:14 umm, why not just link to a uri like the rest of the world. 19:56:21 instead of PAYING for a url redirection service 19:56:25 ehird: because if your stuff moves your old URLs don't work. 19:56:40 the rest of the world solves that by, um, not doing that. 19:56:41 ehird: 'iki' is search for 'ikuinen' meaning 'permanent' 19:56:44 crazy sedes. 19:56:46 *swedes 19:56:50 ehird: if you change your ISP, what're you going to do 19:56:53 ok, technically we have purl.org 19:56:56 Deewiant: not host pages on my isp 19:57:04 ehird: damn straight 19:57:10 ehird: what if I have no other hosting option 19:57:12 ehird: +free 19:57:19 stop being a cheap bum :) 19:57:20 :D 19:57:41 fuck that 19:57:43 corth.c:12: warning: ‘noreturn’ function does return 19:57:45 oh shut up gcc 19:58:03 by "noreturn" i mean DON'T GENERATE A FREAKING "ret" INSTRUCTION 19:58:22 put assert (false) at the end 19:58:29 does that work? ha 19:58:36 I don't know 19:58:37 worth a try 19:58:47 it's specced to work in D where assert is a language construct :-P 19:58:59 Deewiant: well, it makes sense for gcc to be complaining because i'm trying to tell it main() doesn't return 19:59:18 (I clobber the stack in this program so I use the genius solution of "Don't ever, ever return, or call functions") 19:59:50 lol, it still buts a ret in there but doesn't complain 19:59:56 * ehird tries asm("hlt") instead 20:00:03 ehird: even with -O2? 20:00:08 /3 20:00:20 -Os would be more likely to do something ther 20:00:39 hlt 20:00:39 popl %ebp 20:00:40 I always forget that one exists :-P 20:00:41 ret 20:00:43 Gcc fail 20:00:50 switch to D 20:00:51 zsh: illegal hardware instruction ./a.out 20:00:54 8-) 20:00:59 Deewiant: I'm writing a forth. That would be dumb :D 20:01:03 register int *esp asm("%esp"); 20:01:03 #define PUSHL(x) asm("pushl %0" : : "r"(x) : "%esp") 20:01:08 why would it be dumb? :-P 20:01:09 this is CRAZY LAND 20:01:21 register, heh 20:01:29 I wonder if GCC ignores that 20:03:22 ehird: why use the hardware stack? 20:03:26 allocate your own on the heap 20:03:28 please 20:03:42 bsmntbombdood: is that BLAZING FAST and CRAZY?! 20:03:43 NO 20:03:55 why are you writing it in C even? 20:05:01 bsmntbombdood: because I'm too incompetent to write asm 20:05:09 but you are using asm 20:05:13 only partly :P 20:05:19 yuck 20:05:30 cool, you get a bus error if you don't ret 20:05:32 from main 20:05:47 and really, how much slower can your own stack be? 20:05:58 0.01ms 20:06:12 less 20:06:34 0.00001ms 20:06:47 like, 2 cycles 20:07:02 maybe 3 20:07:14 exactly 20:07:21 utterly unacceptable 20:08:13 that's less than 0.00001 ms :-P 20:08:22 0.0000000000000000000000001ms 20:08:23 utterly unacceptable 20:08:31 it's more than that though 20:08:39 1 planck time 20:08:41 utterly unacceptable 20:09:25 god, calling library functions is so ugly in C 20:09:29 well, in asm :P 20:09:30 ? 20:09:46 1.5 × 10**-9 seconds at 2 ghz 20:10:53 so 0.0000015ms 20:10:56 utterly unacceptable 20:12:15 uhuh 20:12:21 i should write a forth 20:12:25 it'll be faster than yours 20:13:16 <__< 20:16:13 oooh i should write a dc 20:16:32 i love dc 20:21:35 would using gmp be cheating? 20:30:01 yes 20:30:08 write it as a string manipulation routine 20:32:06 no 20:32:12 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:42:36 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 20:43:32 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 20:44:55 -!- jix has joined. 21:04:22 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 22:16:43 22:11 <[TEHb]> Guys, help me pls :-) 22:16:43 22:11 <[TEHb]> I need help 22:16:45 22:12 <[TEHb]> I have not eaten for three days 22:16:50 IRC is the correct place for advice on this matter 22:17:15 it's time to learn postscript! 22:17:20 anyone know a good tutorial? 22:17:56 hey guys i just wrote a goto 22:17:59 is this bad y/n 22:18:01 n 22:18:06 y 22:18:14 y 22:18:15 it's bad if you have to ask. 22:18:27 exactly 22:18:27 gotos are _awesome_ 22:18:33 well 22:18:38 computed gotos are awesome 22:18:44 you know, gcc supports them 22:18:56 flexo: how do computed gotos work? 22:19:06 i'll show you 22:19:07 bsmntbombdood: you can pass around goto pointers. 22:19:08 and go to them. 22:19:21 well 22:19:24 it's not really a computed goto 22:19:27 : 22:19:29 but i still rock: 22:19:31 http://pastebin.com/m32bb5f 22:19:40 why is that awesome? 22:19:50 i suppose this might only work on 32bit x86 22:20:29 flexo: that's not a computed goto. 22:20:37 although that IS confusing as fuck 22:20:46 thanks 22:20:48 uhhh 22:20:54 how did you get those constants in the array? 22:21:03 I think they're x86 machine code 22:21:27 nawothnig@perez:~$ ./leet 22:21:27 98 9e 37 d5 31 14 30 c3 22:21:31 it's kind of a quine. somewhat. 22:21:45 endianquine 22:21:46 (byteorder is reversed) 22:24:59 bsmntbombdood: so, unless your program looks like mine you should restructure it 22:28:04 now i can't figure out this bug 22:28:25 packets are beinng lost again 22:28:25 :/ 22:28:49 will finally get my own line on tuesday 22:31:21 i hate bugs 22:57:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:07:16 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:12:09 how do i exponentiate in postscript? 23:15:58 with luv 23:19:01 Actually, that language would be more powerful than BlooP, as BlooP expresses functions that are primitive-recursive, but that language could express A(m,n), which is not primitive recursive. 23:19:09 sort of BlooP with oracle... 23:21:48 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:24:46 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:25:49 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 23:41:30 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 23:50:36 Even one that could be implemented on Turing machine to run in "finite" time... :-) 2009-01-16: 00:22:50 i must have missed soemthing 00:23:38 nope 00:23:42 23:19 Actually, that language would be more powerful than BlooP, as BlooP expresses functions that are primitive-recursive, but that language could express A(m,n), which is not primitive recursive. 00:23:43 23:19 sort of BlooP with oracle... 00:23:45 23:50 Even one that could be implemented on Turing machine to run in "finite" time... :-) 01:35:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:18:49 -!- ehird has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:18:49 -!- GregorR has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:19:10 -!- ehird has joined. 04:19:10 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:23:45 -!- ehird has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:23:45 -!- GregorR has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:25:44 -!- ehird has joined. 04:25:44 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:42:16 teh buz 04:42:19 *bugz 04:42:48 ^ul ((*BUZZ* )S:^):^ 04:42:48 *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *BUZZ* *B ...too much output! 04:52:51 yay unexplained segfault 04:56:24 ^ul (KH)(A)(:*)(:*)::**^^(N)**S 04:56:24 KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN 04:56:50 :D 04:57:27 http://www.khaaan.com/ 05:14:11 Segmentation fault (core dumped) 05:22:49 -!- Corun has joined. 05:29:23 -!- oerjan has quit ("Bus"). 05:37:40 haha! 05:37:45 my dc is waaaay faster than gnu dc 05:38:43 It's not the speed of your dick that matters, bsmnt_bot 05:39:02 dc(1), loser 05:39:31 I don't know what that is. 05:40:40 http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=dc&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=OpenBSD%20Current&arch=i386&format=html 07:13:14 -!- olsner has joined. 07:50:37 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:51:06 rip ricardo montalban indeed 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:21 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 08:31:37 crazy sedes. *swedes <-- no Finns. Not Swedes. 08:34:13 1.5 × 10**-9 seconds at 2 ghz <-- not sure about that, some CPUs execute more than one instruction per cycle iirc. Though I'm not sure if x86 does that. 08:35:16 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 08:36:35 hey guys i just wrote a goto is this bad y/n <-- well depends a lot on language, how it is used and so on. 08:36:53 like, C doesn't have break; for more than one level at a time 08:37:08 using goto to break two levels is the cleanest solution there 08:38:02 also sometimes in functions that can error out at several points and need to do common cleanup for all the error paths, goto error; and putting an error: block at the end may be the cleanest code. 08:38:20 some file reading functions or such would fit into that category 08:38:38 also I think it is often ok in _generated_ C code 08:44:22 anmaster 08:44:34 do you know anything about the properties of rewriting systems? 08:49:00 psygnisfive, like Thue? 08:49:19 no no i mean the formal properties of such systems in general 08:49:48 psygnisfive, not much really. 08:49:55 ok 09:38:54 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 10:12:14 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 10:24:15 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:24:32 -!- Slereah has joined. 10:32:47 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:06:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:08:36 -!- Hiato has joined. 13:10:22 do you know anything about the properties of rewriting systems? 13:10:45 if it's string rewriting then you have the Chomsky hierarchy at least 13:30:26 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:31:35 -!- Hiato has joined. 13:59:14 oerjan: YOU'RE NOT FOOLING ANYONE :DDDDDDDDDDD 14:00:42 i misread "eurocreme" was on the clipboard and not the topic (shown next to each other), thought i had sleep googled for gay porn again 14:01:08 well that was actually complete bullshit, i just wanted to use the term sleep googling in some context. 14:01:25 fooling anyone about what? 14:01:32 oerjan: nothing in general 14:01:42 hm... 14:01:44 scary 14:01:52 is it now? 14:02:04 you regularly sleep google for gay porn? 14:02:43 * oerjan realizes responding to comments before reading the next line is more fun 14:03:09 well yeah i'm not sure why i said that bullshit comment 14:03:24 i mean it's all about choice, i honestly don't know whether i actually did think it was on the clipboard. 14:03:59 yeah i often don't know what i'm thinking either 14:04:18 i do know i don't sleep google for gay porn (afaik), but that is fun as a joke, so there's no need to be honest; then again if i say i misraed something, and i'm lying, there's no excuse. 14:04:21 but often i don't know 14:04:26 *misread 14:04:47 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 14:04:48 i misread that as misraped 14:04:50 oooooooooooooooooooooooooo 14:04:56 xD 14:05:01 * oerjan has no excuse 14:05:01 what's misraping 14:05:15 let's try to never find out 14:05:17 like, to accidentally someone? 14:05:19 I think it's just like rape, except you're doing it wrong. 14:05:26 oh. 14:05:27 deep. 14:05:33 there's probably like a comic about that 14:06:14 you misrape what you sow 14:07:04 One of the only three google hits of "misrape" (quoted) sounds like it's just a case of applying the procedure to the wrong person: "... bust into someone’s house and terrorize them, i suggest you keep detailed records of your victims so you don’t misrape any innocent bystanders. ..." 14:07:29 i think i should stop now, i just noticed it anagrams to "spermia" 14:07:40 Sperm AI 14:08:32 so cummon down south park and meet some frendsa mineeeee 14:08:36 Also "ram pies". 14:09:05 SimRape 14:09:18 rim peas 14:09:19 i'd play it. 14:09:33 prim sea 14:09:42 "ear imps". 14:09:45 simrape would probably need sperm ai. 14:09:55 but i hope there wouldn't be any ram pies 14:10:13 oh 14:10:32 almost prime ass, like that bear has 14:12:22 ip smear 14:12:29 Also maybe related: seam rip. 14:13:00 this is kinda getting outta hand ppl. 14:14:58 g66 = 3 !g65-1! (3 !g65-1! 3) > 3 !g65-1! (g64 + 3) = 3 -> (g64 + 3) -> (g65 - 1) > (2 -> (g64 + 3) -> (g64 - 2)) - 3 = A(g64,g64)... :-> 14:17:27 => g66 > A(g64,g64)... 14:27:57 Heh: 'g64 -> g64 -> g64 -> g64'. That should be fairly BIG. 14:28:10 A million is already fairly big. 14:29:21 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 14:34:11 g1 is already really really HUGE number. 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 iterated base-10 logarithms would barely do a minor dent to it. g2 is MUCH bigger than g1, etc... 14:35:04 Isn't g1 just 3^3^3? 14:35:05 Or something 14:36:31 g1 is 3 !!!! 3 = 3 !!! (3 !!! 3) = 3 !!! (3 !! (3 !! 3)) = 3 !!! (3 !! (3 ^ 3 ^ 3)) = 3 !!! (3 !! 7625597484987) = ... 14:37:52 = 3 !!! (3 ^ 3 ^ 3 ^ ... ^ 3) [7625597484986 '^'s]... 14:38:59 Your definition of "minor dent" is interesting, if you look at how large a fraction of the original number is left after that many logarithms. I'm not saying it wouldn't still be a rather large number, but if you consider a chunk of rock, take a similarly proportioned amount of it away, it doesn't really look like a "minor dent" at that point. 14:40:54 These numbers are so huge you can't even use power tower scale... And iterated logarithm operates in that scale... 14:43:40 power tower scale? 14:44:00 i agree, minor dent is a weird term 14:48:43 "Power tower scale" essentially measures how many times you (approximately) have to apply logarithm to get into small numbers.. 14:50:47 which is just the fourth step of the ackermann function 14:51:18 A(4,n) = 2^2^...n times - 3 or something like that 14:53:13 Ilari: k right. still i agree with fizzie 14:56:11 Yes, well, in my viewpoint it's just a matter of what the word "dent" means; it doesn't seem right to me to call something a "dent" if over, say, half of the original thing is gone, no matter how large the dented thing is. 15:07:03 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 15:15:40 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:37:36 -!- ehird has left (?). 15:37:39 -!- ehird has joined. 15:37:54 -!- ehird has left (?). 15:37:57 -!- ehird has joined. 15:38:44 08:31 crazy sedes. *swedes <-- no Finns. Not Swedes. 15:38:46 no 15:38:48 finns are sane 15:39:09 Completely Finn-sane. 15:39:31 ehird: you show a complete misunderstanding of nordic stereotypes 15:39:41 good :D 15:51:14 ehird, you were talking about that iki.fi thing then 15:51:22 Swedes aren't related to that 15:51:24 afk 15:51:29 meh, iki.fi makes some sense 15:51:36 it's just odd that finns are the only ones who use such a thing 15:57:29 i assume the japanese do to, it's just that we never know because they are speaking in japanese. 15:57:42 *too 15:58:21 oh and the north koreans with internet access also do so. both of them. 16:00:33 to be honest I don't exist 16:00:45 duh. 16:00:50 i had suspected that. 16:01:22 but then i thought: figments of imagination are people too! 16:01:37 in fact they're the only people 16:09:37 -!- dbc has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:36:36 http://lost-theory.org/realultimatepower/ The Official Jeff Atwood Homepage 16:36:59 How terribly lame 16:37:11 it's a parody. 16:37:14 Yes 16:37:15 I know 16:37:19 I have the book 16:37:36 I guess you also have to hate jeff atwood to find it funny :P 16:37:50 Who's Jeff Atwood? 16:38:00 Idiot extraordinaire. 16:38:18 So idiotic that _Joel Spolsky_ teaches him something on a weekly basis. http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/ 16:38:20 codinghorror.com 16:38:33 jeffatwoodhorror.com 16:38:49 Coding horror 16:38:53 I hope I'm not on there :o 16:40:49 http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/7q2rj/google_search_results_for_khaxn_for_x1_to_100/c072mvj 16:41:12 eliezer's reply is so. perfectly. timed. 16:41:38 ehird: not infact all that odd 16:41:47 shut up. it's humour. 16:41:48 it's funny. 16:41:54 you can find two dimensional graphs of ARGH 16:42:01 um 16:42:03 im not talking about that 16:42:07 im talking about the specific comment thread linked 16:42:15 psygnisfive: clicking links since 2009 16:42:21 thats nice. 16:42:29 im commenting on the content of the link. 16:42:29 :P 16:42:55 Don't joke about this. He's dead, Jim. 16:42:56 the link I posted selects one comment thread in the comments for that link. 16:43:13 ah well, it doesnt do anything special for me, ehird. dunno why. 16:43:23 yes. it does. 16:43:24 scrolld own. 16:43:27 past the link. 16:43:28 http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/7q2rj/google_search_results_for_khaxn_for_x1_to_100/c072mvj 16:43:36 yeah it doesnt do anything for me dude 16:43:37 The yellow-backgrounded comment. 16:43:42 And Eliezer Yudkowsky's reply. 16:43:47 ah, ok. 16:43:53 fail 16:44:18 i didnt realize that it was only showing one thread 16:44:25 as for yudkowsky, heh. 16:44:55 i wonder if he just stumbled across that thread or if he has An Algo 16:45:42 hm he really _must_ have come by google, it's a month since his last post :D 16:46:18 (Context: qgyh2 is the person on reddit with the most submission & comments points, over 100,000 or sth) 16:46:28 lol 16:49:46 so. 16:50:15 did you know the turku university specializes in discrete math, and there's a lot of research in mathematical esolangs? 16:50:29 you didn't. my point is i think i know what i'm gonna be when i grow up. 16:52:09 i should learn hoare logic 16:52:20 mathematical esolangs?? 16:52:38 Like -recursive functions? :o 16:53:31 WHORE LOGIC YOU SAY :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 16:53:51 psygnisfive: reductions from all kindsa constructs into turing machines. 16:53:58 With the whore operator 16:53:59 example? 16:54:06 talked to this prof who does cellular automata stuff today 16:54:31 i was instructed to meet him after mentioning i was thinking switching university. 16:54:43 lol 16:54:50 "im leaving, you guys are too practical" 16:54:54 "HERE IS A CRAZY-ASS GUY" 16:54:59 *crazy ass-guy 16:55:27 More like ASS-GUY 16:55:39 too slow, slereah_ 16:55:50 yeah I was just doing that to shut up the fucking xkcd fans 16:55:52 :( 16:56:02 I'm just a fan of asses. 16:57:03 fucking-xkcd fans are scary. 16:57:43 i dont know many people who are fans of fucking xkcd 16:58:19 16:57 HEJ PEOPLES HELP -TELL AROUND THE WORLD WHAT WE DIEING STOP MAKE DEATH STOP KILL ANIMALS PLANTS WATER METALL ANOTHER PEOPLES BAD PEOPLES MAKE THIS WORLD WE CAN LIVE FOREVER WIT NATURE WITH GOD WITH UNIVERSE PIECE 16:58:20 16:57 STOP KILL STOP DEATH 16:58:22 Is this fucking xkcd? http://d.furaffinity.net/art/seaweedprincess/1232091972.seaweedprincess_xkcd34.jpg 16:58:22 -- #haskell 16:58:35 Slereah_: I did not need to see that. 16:58:43 ehird : Yes. 16:58:44 Yes you did. 16:58:49 Now you are complete. 16:58:54 No, I... really didn't 16:59:10 You'll thank me one day. 17:00:24 ehird: see, it's the swedes that are crazy 17:00:30 thats a totally inappropriate fake xkcd, slereah_ 17:00:37 there's no alt text! 17:00:53 oerjan: I know :P 17:00:59 Yes there is 17:01:05 finns and norway-yians are cool 17:01:08 It's "Raptors on Hoverboards are Offscreen" 17:01:10 oh wait 17:01:14 ahhh 17:01:15 But I posted the pix directly 17:01:15 good one 17:01:23 Since you butts don't have FA accounts 17:01:27 μYou? 17:01:35 i have an FA account 17:01:47 Yes 17:01:51 But not the rest. 17:01:51 what the heck is an FA account. 17:01:54 Unless... 17:02:01 fur affinity, oerjan 17:02:02 IS ANYONE A CLOSET FURRY HERE 17:02:06 the picture is on furaffinity.net, which is a shithole full of retarded furries. 17:02:07 ah 17:02:07 deviant art for furries 17:02:11 and the associated porn. 17:02:39 it's a fun thing, really 17:02:41 Slereah_: yes iirc. not me though. 17:02:59 Ever since DA was created, furries have migrated from sites to sites 17:03:03 Until FA was thar. 17:03:05 wait, how can you know if someone is a closet furry 17:03:08 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:03:15 HERE'S ONE! 17:03:16 that doesn't make sense 17:03:17 GET HIM! 17:03:18 * Asztal is a cute b/w wolf 17:03:27 -!- ehird has set topic: No furries allowed. 17:04:03 Hey >:| 17:04:06 You forgot the logs! 17:04:14 Furries don't deserve logs 17:04:22 he must have thought they looked furry 17:04:30 ehird: it's just moss! 17:04:40 and lichen! 17:06:31 -!- oerjan has set topic: No smurfing. 17:07:07 -!- ehird has set topic: No furries allowed. 17:07:32 -!- oerjan has set topic: No smurfing furries allowed. 17:10:03 Hey psygnisfive 17:10:06 Want to smurf? 17:11:02 :O 17:11:08 TOO MUCH REQUESTING INFORMATION 17:11:27 I'll request allright. 17:11:31 REQUEST A REACH AROUND 17:14:33 xD 17:15:18 blah, i don't feel like reading, i feel like running around naked and eating doors. 17:15:32 but, i guess i have little choice. 17:15:34 wish me luck -> 17:15:42 Delicious door 17:16:27 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:16:39 argh 17:16:41 where are the logs? 17:16:53 the link in topic is GONE! 17:17:16 It's all ehird's fault 17:17:21 Him and his fursecution! 17:17:28 that maniac 17:17:30 AnMaster: bookmarks 17:17:33 do you know how to use them? 17:17:35 optbot!!!!!!!!!!!!! 17:17:46 why use bookmarks when the topic has the logs 17:17:59 -!- Slereah_ has set topic: butt | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 17:18:20 ehird, yes you place them in books to remember where you should continue reading. 17:18:31 Ha. Ha. Ha. 17:19:07 * ehird writes cat(1) program in Python because why not. 17:19:12 #!/usr/bin/env python 17:19:12 import sys 17:19:12 i bet if i had said it ehird wouldn't have laughed. oh wait. 17:19:13 for filename in sys.argv: 17:19:16 file = sys.stdin if filename == '-' else open(filename) 17:19:18 while not file.closed: 17:19:20 sys.stdout.write(file.read(1)) 17:19:29 oerjan: no, I wouldn't have :P 17:19:44 oerjan, yes, but not in such a sarcastic manner 17:20:58 ehird: you are missing _several_ POSIX options. 17:21:06 isn't there just -u? 17:21:15 * oerjan has no idea really :D 17:21:16 yep 17:21:20 -u 17:21:21 Write bytes from the input file to the standard output without delay as each is read. 17:21:22 which I already do 17:21:25 and nobody uses that anyway 17:21:38 mine misses stdin on no args through 17:21:44 s/sys.argv/sys.argv or ['-']/ 17:21:44 ok how many GNU options are there... 17:21:49 oerjan: 5 bajillion 17:21:56 i don't believe in gnu tools 17:22:16 so, you know how i like stuff right? 17:22:35 oklopol: eww 17:22:59 oerjan: i bet if i had said it ehird wouldn't have laughed. oh wait. <<< you would never say that 17:23:07 well exactly. 17:23:34 i could have made a similar joke. in fact i must have done so. 17:23:48 oerjan: you would've made a joke based on the same thing, yes 17:23:55 the point is you would've made it less direct 17:24:19 you mean like remote library loan? 17:24:47 see that's what you would've said. something so complicated i don't get it 17:24:57 plz explain i want to laugh. 17:25:16 less direct + books = remote library loan 17:26:05 hmm 17:26:14 THAT'S NOT FUNNY. 17:26:28 NEITHER IS YOUR MOTHER. 17:26:55 FUCK YOU, MY MOTHER IS OUTRIGHT RIDICULOUS!! 17:27:11 also, i was obviously trying to make the joke even less direct than usual, it's a meta thing 17:27:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:27:23 and you know i never *hit by anvil* 17:27:27 yes, i think i get it. 17:28:05 http://pastie.org/362562.txt?key=r1mvwcrozo1c5mcrklic8w 17:28:09 oerjan: trying to balance it out... or is that your new swatter replacement? 17:28:09 Now it does rot13 too. 17:28:19 because cat is _exactly_ the place for it 17:28:23 *are you trying 17:28:34 balance directness out that is 17:28:37 i don't think i can make a 1-line anvil. hm. 17:28:42 python is fun. 17:28:45 _T_ 17:28:46 ehird: I was thinking about the UNIX philosophy 17:28:53 ais523: heh, nice timing 17:28:55 _||_ 17:29:01 * ehird breaks oerjan's anvil with lines 17:29:06 and actually, I decided find | grep is more unixy than either find -name blah or ls -R | grep 17:29:14 i think that was it, ehird. 17:29:19 you can tell you're being properly UNIXy if you don't need command-line options 17:29:25 ehird: those were two anvils 17:29:31 ais523: that makes sense to a degree 17:29:39 some command line options just change how it operates, not fundamentally what it does 17:29:45 ls -R changes fundamentally what it does, however 17:29:51 so you're right in that case 17:29:52 yes 17:30:19 uh oh, my cat has a bug 17:30:20 XD 17:30:26 the fact that so many commands have recursion options implies that find is definitely a unixy command, when you don't use its options yourself 17:30:27 ehird: what lang? 17:30:33 ais523: http://pastie.org/362562.txt?key=r1mvwcrozo1c5mcrklic8w 17:30:34 buggy cats normally imply some pretty difficult lang 17:30:39 I wrote cat in python for no reason, but then added rot13 17:30:42 for no reason 17:30:49 ais523: no, just buggy logic for detecting EOF 17:30:55 ah, EOF 17:31:00 ehird: use a flea collar 17:31:05 btw, one instruction that more languages need 17:31:08 is pipe 17:31:10 basicall 17:31:11 y 17:31:19 in python 17:31:34 pipe(lambda: file.read(1), lambda a: sys.stdout.write(transformer(a))) 17:31:38 is equivalent to 17:31:46 (pseudo-python, you can't assign in whiles in reality): 17:31:54 while a = file.read(1): sys.stdout.write(transformer(a)) 17:31:57 it's such a common idiom 17:31:59 something like 17:32:17 pipe file.read(1) as a: sys.stdout.write(transformer(a)) 17:32:21 would be great 17:32:23 incidentally, I read somewhere that Python lambdas were syntactic sugar 17:32:28 what do they expand to? 17:32:36 foo(lambda x: x) 17:32:36 could be 17:32:44 def bar(x): return x 17:32:45 foo(bar) 17:32:58 oh, you can declare named functions in inner scopes in Python? 17:33:02 yes 17:33:08 that would explain it 17:33:37 python is a bit verbose, unfortunately 17:33:43 so using it for scripting is a bit annoying 17:33:51 but it's nicer than writing shell script... 17:34:04 it depends on how long the scripts are 17:34:14 even trivial things in shell can be a pain 17:34:32 if I get beyond one for loop over something like * in a shell, it instantly goes to hell 17:34:36 and I switch to a real language :P 17:36:43 but it'd be nice if python was, you know, shorter 17:36:57 I'm pretty sure that cat is the not much shorter than it would be in C 17:37:00 * ehird writes it in C to find out 17:38:39 hm 17:38:39 uppercase = code >= ord('A') and code <= ord('Z') 17:38:41 lowercase = code >= ord('a') and code <= ord('z') 17:38:43 -> 17:38:45 uppercase = char.islower() 17:38:47 err 17:38:49 isupper 17:38:54 lowercase = char.islower() 17:38:54 :P 17:43:13 c version: 55 lines 17:43:18 so, python is quite a bit shorter 17:43:24 the programs essentially look the same, though. 17:43:40 http://pastie.org/362584.txt?key=bm06tagczdoiybatmth9q 17:44:24 err, that transformer assignment needs to be lower 17:44:25 whatever 17:46:37 am I connected? 17:46:37 ping. 17:47:00 amusingly, this python 17:47:00 shifted = (((ord(char.lower()) - ord('a')) + 13) % 26) + ord('a') 17:47:05 is more verbose than this c 17:47:05 shifted = (((tolower(c) - 'a') + 13) % 26) + 'a'; 17:48:03 incidentally, C only does so well at this program because it involves no dynamic allocation whatsoever. 17:48:15 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 17:49:39 also, my stdin check fails 17:49:42 as I forgot to use strcmp. 17:49:50 heh, comparing pointers? 17:49:55 conclusion: python is better but sometimes uglier. 17:51:25 slereah: no. 17:52:07 I should now write some code that actually does anything. 17:52:12 * ais523 looks at the Wiki recent changes 17:52:19 oh no, not yet /another/ BF derivative 17:52:51 linkkkkk 17:53:25 proposal: bf derivatives are banned 17:53:38 but what about continuous brainfuck 17:53:49 it's gonna be awesome. 17:53:54 ais523: I like the syntax, though 17:53:55 the swirling dna 17:54:13 yes 17:54:23 also, the notion of BF derivatives isn't bad as a whole 17:54:27 just, they ought to be interesting 17:54:35 and most of the ones that people come up with aren't 17:55:17 I wonder if I will ever use 25GB of mail storage. 17:55:48 (My current gmail account, which I made in 2006 and only started using heavily in around 2008, is using "744MB (10%) of your 7285MB.") 17:55:57 (Which is a lot for such a little time I've used it heavily.) 17:57:11 I don't think I'm connected. 17:57:48 ais523: ping. 17:58:39 pong 17:59:09 "Why buy a dedicated fart app AND a flashlight, when you can have BOTH, and get a TWITTER CLIENT along with it!" 17:59:14 pyng 17:59:20 This person has got the iPhone appstore 100% figured out. 17:59:46 heh 17:59:51 is that one of the adverts? 18:00:06 http://www.atebits.com/pee/ 18:00:25 they actually sell it :D 18:01:07 WHAT IS PEE 18:01:11 I wonder as well! 18:01:34 http://atebits.cachefly.net/pee/wow.jpg 18:01:44 this looks like a stock photo 18:01:56 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:02:00 but it's odd. i wonder what the photographers were thinking when they planned/took this photo. 18:02:01 -!- puzzlet has joined. 18:02:28 psygnisfive: it's from a recent advert bought on reddit 18:02:31 advertising viagra or something 18:02:40 aha 18:02:46 the ad is now gone due to complaints and there are tons of ads on reddit using the same image but advertising things like subreddits. 18:02:53 so they were thinking "we should make her look like she' 18:03:04 yes, I don't think you have to elaborate psygnisfive. 18:03:05 s amazed at the size of the adviewer's engorged penis" 18:03:24 well ehird its important to be clear! 18:03:27 The Bush Boom: How a Misunderestimated President Fixed a Broken Economy 18:03:28 worst 18:03:28 book 18:03:30 EVAR 18:03:31 http://www.amazon.com/Bush-Boom-Misunderestimated-President-Economy/dp/1594670870?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232115413&sr=8-1 18:03:49 if i wasnt, you might've thought i meant, "she's amazed at the low low prices of viagra that we're selling" 18:04:05 and i wouldnt want you to have wrong assumptions about my perspective on advertisements for viagra 18:05:29 oooooooooo 18:07:48 hmm 18:07:51 you know what would be cool? 18:07:58 an irc server specifically designed for things like bitlbee 18:07:59 that is 18:08:03 clients can do things like 18:08:07 MAKEDUMMY foobarbaz 18:08:11 ASDUMMY foobarbaz JOIN #mychannel 18:08:17 ASDUMMY foobarbaz PRIVMSG #mychannel :I am totally a real person 18:10:04 what is bitlbee? 18:10:55 bitlbee is a gateway that lets you use MSN/AIM/Jabber/etc through irc 18:11:03 you connect to a special server and your contacts become irc users in a room 18:11:06 you can just /msg them and stuff 18:11:29 there's plenty of good things that could do with an "IRC interface" with that, I'm just thinking about a server that would make it as easy as writing an irc bot 18:11:34 with some special commands to control fake users 18:14:50 so. yes. 18:18:46 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:21:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:22:26 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:31:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 18:34:17 http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/2177201ae448ab894682b16d557f5544fb678e7b 18:34:21 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:34:28 -!- puzzlet has joined. 18:36:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:36:26 18:34 puzzlet has joined (n=puzzlet@147.46.241.231) 18:36:26 18:36 ais523 has joined (n=ais523@147.188.254.127) 18:36:28 puzzlet == ais523 18:36:42 meh, 147 is massive 18:36:49 147.188 is Birmingham University 18:36:59 therefore my guess is that puzzlet's on the UK academic network or something connected to it 18:37:03 but not in Birmingham 18:37:53 umm, puzzlet is chinese I'm prety sure 18:38:07 oops. korean 18:38:14 interesting 18:38:18 (Puzzlet Chung lives in the Republic of Korea. He is one of the administrators of the Korean Wikipedia and the Korean Wikiquote. 18:38:18 --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:PuzzletChung 18:38:21 in that case, 147 stretches a long way 18:38:33 there are only 256 /8s, and they aren't all used 18:38:43 so it's not surprising that some of them go all over the world, I suppose 18:39:19 also,http://kiwi.cabal.fi/home/aki/misc/cons-ceremony.txt 18:44:25 Hmm. Oh dear. I think I have my editor committed to muscle memory. 18:45:01 which editor? 18:45:07 both vi and emacs are pretty quick to type 18:45:14 I mean, the editor commands. 18:45:18 and I have most common words committed to muscle memory, not just editors 18:45:25 As in, switching to another editor for daily use would involve a lot of unlearning. 18:45:30 and yes, editor commands seems reasonable 18:45:51 (it's textmate, FWIW) 18:45:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:47:40 i use a 7-string vi in drop-D tuning 18:49:29 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:08:13 grr 19:08:32 mysql docs doesn't even say when some sql syntax is non-standard 19:08:39 AnMaster: that's easy enough 19:08:43 postgresql manuals documents it all the time 19:08:45 clearly 19:08:46 /all/ sql syntax is nonstandard 19:08:59 ais523, for example it seems using LIMIT with UPDATE is non-standard 19:09:08 I'm porting a program from mysql to postgresql btw 19:09:16 AnMaster: LIMIT isn't standard at all 19:09:21 although it's certainly useful 19:09:36 ais523, well, postgresql supports it with SELECT, but nothing else 19:09:54 the SQL standard doesn't even have LIMIT as a keyword 19:10:46 ais523, interestingly, the worst problems so far has been 1) postgresql has bytea, but no blob 2) postgresql wants "" around column names that happens to be keywords, mysql wants `` 19:10:49 an unLIMITed standard 19:10:59 oerjan, heh 19:11:10 AnMaster: yep, quoting is really inconsistent between the DB engines 19:11:12 hey, even i wasn't laughing 19:11:15 surely they must have standardised that 19:11:33 so why aren't DB engines staying consistent about it? 19:11:48 ais523, well since I need to support both (eww) I wrote a small wrapper quote_for_stupid_db 19:11:55 that quotes one word as a column name 19:12:34 apart from column names and table names the code uses prepared statements everywhere 19:13:36 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:14:01 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:14:57 ais523, anyway what is worse in this case (which is horrible php code), is that while pdo is supposed to be an abstraction layer, it is kind of useless when it returns mysql blobs as strings and postgresql bytea as streams 19:19:00 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:20:27 ooh, a syntax highlighting program that actually parses textmate theme files to work. 19:20:28 nice. 19:21:19 * Hiato hates to interrupt but is concerned that his NASM OS compiles with FASM, yet causes kernel panics randomly 19:21:28 #osdev? :P 19:21:35 * Hiato and is wondering what the compiler differences are 19:21:39 :P 19:21:42 roger 19:21:42 thanks 19:21:52 Hiato: you have an os? 19:22:09 indeedy 19:22:43 was in NASM, then I started porting it to FASM today so that I could port FASM to it. It's 16bit, real-time mono-tasking (for now) 19:23:01 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7,475,086.PN.&OS=PN/7,475,086&RS=PN/7,475,086 19:23:03 Patent fail 19:23:11 thx ibm 19:23:51 ehird, err 19:23:58 ehird, prior art 19:24:08 Lol! You think the US patent system cares? 19:24:11 Oh, what a comedian 19:24:55 ehird, this sounds like the definition of the CHAR(n) type... 19:25:06 no, it's the definition of TRIM() 19:25:29 well, using TRIM() in a trigger rather? 19:26:27 perhaps. 19:29:32 -!- Zetro has joined. 19:30:41 -!- Mony has joined. 19:33:03 plop 19:33:10 blob 19:33:18 kablam! 19:45:14 argh, mysql auto increment NEEDS a NULL in INSERT, it must be listed. PostgreSQL's equivalent requires the column to not be listed 19:45:14 :( 19:49:46 AnMaster: autoincrement is different between all sorts of db engines 19:49:52 ais523, yes 19:50:31 ais523, do you know any sort of true DB abstraction layer? A "anti-quirk middleware" 19:50:33 an* 19:50:37 I don't know of one 19:50:39 they must exist, though 19:50:46 DBI. 19:50:53 ehird, for (ewwwww) php 19:50:55 ehird: that isn't a true abstraction layer 19:51:03 it requires you to write the SQL yourself 19:51:12 AnMaster: that was not specified. ais523: It translates the SQL to the correct dialect, I believe. 19:51:12 in a syntax that the target DB engine understands 19:51:17 ehird: no it doesn't, IIRC 19:51:22 yes it does, IIRC> 19:51:46 ehird, well true 19:52:12 but I'm not using perl, no way I'm rewriting an existing software in perl 19:52:29 at least this php program has all the DB calls in a single file 19:52:34 then tough shit. 19:53:05 ehird, ais523: also does DBI rewrite or not? 19:53:13 Dates and times are returned as character strings in the current 19:53:15 default format of the corresponding database engine. Time zone effects 19:53:15 19:51 ehird: no it doesn't, IIRC 19:53:16 19:51 yes it does, IIRC> 19:53:16 are database/driver dependent. 19:53:23 from the DBI docs 19:53:25 I haven't found a definitive answer to the original question yet 19:53:25 I am talking about SQL syntax, ais523. 19:53:26 but that's a clue 19:53:58 ehird, and I'm waiting for you two to make up your mind 19:54:01 The DBI itself does not mandate or require any particular language to 19:54:03 be used; it is language independent. In ODBC terms, the DBI is in 19:54:04 "pass-thru" mode, although individual drivers might not be. The only 19:54:06 requirement is that queries and other statements must be expressed as a 19:54:07 single string of characters passed as the first argument to the 19:54:09 "prepare" or "do" methods. 19:54:12 it doesn't even require SQL! 19:54:16 -!- MigoMipo has changed nick to PrepareForMigol0. 19:54:17 hah 19:54:21 k 19:54:35 ais523, what is ODBC btw? I have seen the term a lot, but never understood what it was 19:54:43 -!- PrepareForMigol0 has changed nick to Migol09. 19:54:44 I think it's a DB driver, not sure though 19:54:48 letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=ODBC 19:54:51 it's probably something DB-related, anyway 19:54:57 ehird: does that site need JavaScript? 19:55:00 yes. 19:55:06 enable it, it's worth it 19:55:08 then it's considerably worse than just linking to Google 19:55:16 enable it, it's worth it <--- no it isn't 19:55:22 ais523: it's a sarcastic insult. 19:55:32 if I wanted to be helpful I wouldn't link to it. 19:56:14 ehird, I have javascript off too 19:56:21 and not about to turn it on 19:56:24 care level: 0 19:56:48 "In computing, Open Database Connectivity (ODBC) provides a standard software API method for using database management systems (DBMS). The designers of ODBC aimed to make it independent of programming languages, database systems, and operating systems." 19:56:49 interesting 19:58:00 * AnMaster forces ehird to use MS Query with the Microsoft Excel backend for his databases 20:04:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 20:14:29 -!- Zetro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:14:49 -!- Zetro has joined. 20:18:16 -!- Migol09 has changed nick to JohnWins. 20:23:06 -!- Judofyr has joined. 20:26:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has changed nick to ThisIsAReallyLon. 20:27:08 -!- ThisIsAReallyLon has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 20:28:15 cool, the IRC interface I was thinking about exists 20:29:17 -!- Zetro has left (?). 20:34:05 ehird, and what is that interface? 20:34:16 you have 3 guesses 20:34:55 not file system based since we talked about that before, not integrated in to zsh since we also talked about that before 20:34:57 hm 20:35:15 ehird, are you talking about a client or some server side feature? 20:35:26 like say, a jabber<->irc proxy 20:35:36 IRC interface: an IRC server that provides an interface to another service. 20:35:37 (that exists yes) 20:35:44 For example, bitlbee is an IRC interface for IM services. 20:35:47 indeed 20:35:59 but it isn't bitlbee? 20:36:01 hm 20:36:11 ehird, is it related to IM? 20:36:17 Sort of. 20:36:37 related to web browser? (like, say cgi::irc but in server) 20:37:04 ehird, ? 20:37:07 nope. 20:37:10 hm 20:37:54 ehird, is it for translating between different IRCD procotols? 20:37:56 protocols* 20:37:59 nope. 20:38:02 ah 20:38:03 hm 20:38:04 brb, feel free to guess while I'm brbing 20:38:18 ehird, well if it isn't bitlbee I'm out of ideas. 20:38:41 brb too 20:43:27 back 20:44:22 -!- Corun has joined. 20:48:33 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 20:52:32 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:54:08 bass fretboard showing the c major scale: 20:54:08 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 20:54:08 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 20:54:08 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 20:54:08 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 20:54:11 . . . . : . . . . : 20:55:08 UNI(mirror N)UN(mirror N)I 20:55:10 ? 20:55:20 lament, nice ASCII art! 20:55:32 it does look pretty 20:55:39 it looks like a punch tape 20:55:43 lament, apart from the mirrored N 20:56:00 hm have you seen that javascript punch card library? 20:56:13 * AnMaster looks for url 20:56:26 ah yes lament: http://www.outstandingelephant.com/jcquard/ 20:56:58 hehehe 21:00:33 yay, this VHDL synthesizer actually seems half-decent 21:00:39 ais523, nice 21:00:40 it gave me several screenfuls of optimiser warnings 21:00:42 ais523, what one? 21:00:54 Synplify Pro, it seems 21:00:55 AnMaster: that mirror N, could it be a lambda? 21:01:02 must be a for-pay expensive one 21:01:06 because there are no free ones 21:01:15 ais523, and you have a copy? 21:01:17 which are at all good, and even the rubbish ones are closed-source 21:01:20 AnMaster: no, at University 21:01:33 heh 21:01:45 lament, hm upper case or lower case? 21:01:56 pretty much only companies and universities can afford good VHDL synthesizers 21:01:59 hard to say 21:02:05 I'm amused at the way that anything optimisable is considered a warning, though 21:02:12 in VHDL, you're supposed to write optimal code yourself 21:02:13 lament, don't think so 21:02:17 ais523: hah 21:02:26 AnMaster: oh well 21:02:26 anything suboptimal is bad style 21:02:33 good thing the compiler's catching it for me 21:02:53 in my case, I'm doing all sorts of suboptimal things like not using all the codepaths in a function every time I use it 21:03:07 ais523, eh, how do you then branch? 21:03:08 or not running all the commands in a loop every iteration 21:03:18 AnMaster: via loop unrolling and constant folding 21:03:33 in VHDL, all functions are inlined and all loops are unrolled by the compiler anyway 21:03:46 luckily, I trust it to do that job a lot more reliably than I trust me to do it 21:03:48 so it isn't turing-complete? 21:03:56 no 21:03:58 finite storage 21:04:08 although there are non-loop ways to get infinite repitition 21:04:12 o_O 21:04:16 *repetition 21:04:23 penrose tilings?? 21:04:26 ais523, how does that work? 21:04:27 lament: a <= not b; b <= a 21:04:36 causes infinite repetition in VHDL 21:04:38 despite not being a loop 21:04:51 brain explodes 21:04:59 lazy evaluation? 21:05:39 behavioral evaluation 21:05:42 not exactly lazy 21:05:49 if you don't want the loop to be a tight loop and block your program 21:05:57 you can write a <= not a after 10 ns; 21:06:08 then the loop only changes once every 10 nanoseconds, and you're fine 21:06:35 ais523, nice 21:06:44 * AnMaster waits for lament comments on that 21:06:50 lament's* 21:06:56 i don't get it :) 21:07:05 lament, VHDL compiles to hardware 21:07:08 so timing matters 21:07:15 but what does a <= not a do? 21:07:27 well, I guess toggle a 21:07:29 ? 21:07:34 is that correct ais523? 21:07:45 yes 21:07:57 ais523, VHDL is event driven right? 21:07:58 what does <= mean? 21:08:02 also how does Verilog differs 21:08:07 lament: delayed action assignment 21:08:19 differ* 21:08:25 writing a <= b; b <= c; is equivalent to b <= c; a <= b; 21:08:40 the assignments all happen at the end of the program/process 21:08:54 immediate assignment is := but you aren't allowed to use it, except as local shorthand 21:08:58 sort-of like #define 21:09:04 ais523, huh 21:09:16 VHDL has lots of features that can't be synthesized into hardware 21:09:23 they're fine on simulators, but you have to avoid them for synthesis 21:09:25 oh ok 21:09:32 this is why I think a VHDL->VHDL compiler would actually be highly useful 21:09:36 back 21:10:03 ehird, so what one was it? 21:10:38 heh, this is amusing 21:10:48 the compiler warned me that it generated 6 copies of one of my variables 21:10:56 ais523, I checked their website, it seems to be "contact for price" 21:10:56 if you use a variable too much in VHDL, it overheats 21:11:07 AnMaster: yep, if you have to ask, you can't afford it 21:11:07 ais523, wow, sounds like an esolang 21:11:24 so the compiler generated extra copies to spread the load around 21:11:27 yeah, ask for price = this is too expensive for you 21:11:28 :-) 21:11:49 ehird, indeed 21:13:43 ais523, and there seems to be an even more advanced product "Synplify Premier", which can handle ASIC too 21:14:05 AnMaster: if you have any reason to be doing ASIC synthesis, then you can afford it 21:14:10 I like the idea of using a variable too much overheating the "executable" :-) 21:14:12 ais523, exactly 21:15:04 now let's see if this insane design fits on the processor 21:15:10 see, I think vhdl synthesizers costing a lot makes sense 21:15:23 it's a niche product and making it is extremely difficult 21:15:31 "ESL synthesis" <-- don't know what that is, seems related to DSPs though 21:15:39 and despite being niche, the people who need it really do need it 21:15:45 you should try to implement mergesort using nothing but nested FOR loops sometime 21:15:52 and no array indexes that can't be hard-coded 21:15:58 after the loop's unrolled 21:16:01 ais523, ouch 21:16:14 ais523, can't you use a sorting network if it is hardware? 21:16:28 AnMaster: that's what it is 21:16:32 ais523, oh 21:16:34 this is the code for generating one 21:16:38 right 21:16:42 and ugh, it seems my design is too complex to fit on the chip 21:16:50 ouch 21:17:14 looks like I'll just have to cut down on some of the PRNGs 21:17:29 I have sixteen 32-bit multipliers in there to provide test case data 21:17:35 they must be taking up most of the chip, I reckon 21:17:35 what are you doing 21:17:35 ah 21:17:44 ehird: project for University 21:17:50 ehird, what irc gateway was it btw? 21:18:01 ais523: what is it? 21:18:05 AnMaster: I /msg'd the answer 21:18:09 oh right 21:18:12 don't want to spoil anyone else's guessing :P 21:18:12 didn't see the tab 21:26:00 ais523: would Verilog be easier? 21:26:02 yay, Total Number 4 input LUTs: 2600 out of 3840 21:26:09 and that was just deleting half the multipliers 21:26:12 ehird: no 21:26:20 nowadays, VHDL and Verilog are the same lang with different syntax 21:26:24 they started out very different 21:26:25 ah 21:26:30 but all features in one got added to the other, and vice versa 21:32:05 Verilog wasn't even intended for synthesis, in the first place 21:32:11 but for the construction of verifier testbenches 21:33:38 and yay, the design wasn't too difficult to place in the end 21:33:45 it only took the compiler 1 minute 47 seconds 21:33:52 I've heard cases of it taking days 21:34:51 ais523: does this like, actually print to hardware? 21:34:57 it will do 21:35:02 although I don't have a JTAG cable on me atm 21:35:09 nor a reprogrammable logic chip 21:35:14 we can only book those out in working hours 21:35:23 ais523: oh, so it just reprograms a generic thing? 21:35:24 lame 21:35:31 i want a CHIP PRINTER :| 21:35:39 ehird: that's the ASIC stuff that AnMaster suggested 21:35:41 it exists 21:35:47 i want it 21:35:49 <_< 21:35:51 but the typical price is about a million dollars setup cost 21:35:57 plus 10 cents for each identical chip you make 21:36:07 or up to maybe about 50 cents for complex ones 21:36:14 if you make even a single change, that's another million dollars 21:36:34 ais523: ... :( 21:36:40 I want it, cheaper <_< 21:36:53 ... but seriously 21:36:56 a million dollars? Whaat 21:37:01 there is some progress towards being able to generate arbitrary electronic components 21:37:05 Do they do cold fusion or something? 21:37:06 ehird: that's how much it costs to retool the factory 21:37:13 Sheesh. 21:37:28 I've heard there's progress towards printers which you fill with plastic n-type and p-type ink 21:37:33 that can print transistors 21:37:40 so maybe your wish will be fulfilled in the end 21:37:47 at a rather higher unit price, but rather lower setup cost 21:38:26 One day it shall be free :< 21:40:17 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 21:42:44 next problem: trying to figure out why a program for showing where everything was placed would trigger the firewall on the Windows computers here 21:46:04 ais523, "report home mode"? 21:46:55 maybe 21:47:01 or some sort of automatic updates 21:47:13 ais523, did it work anyway? 21:48:49 ehird: that's how much it costs to retool the factory <-- what does a retool include? 21:48:59 also, how big is this factory? 21:49:13 ehird: I'm not sure 21:49:19 i mean 21:49:21 is it a machine 21:49:23 or a warehouse 21:49:24 :D 21:49:25 I think they have massive foundries, but they produce more than one product at a time 21:49:36 because you need a big assembly-line-type process 21:53:40 ais523, but why does it cost 1 million, I mean... 21:53:56 AnMaster: because you're making an actual chip. 21:53:58 i mean, carbon and shit. 21:54:00 silicon. 21:54:01 ehird, well true 21:54:02 melting. 21:54:03 and stuff. 21:54:24 but is it making some sort of "master" copies or something that cost? 21:54:34 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:55:07 I mean, a lot of the actual tools wouldn't differ would they? 21:55:17 AnMaster: yes, I think so 21:55:24 the problem is trying to get all the photomasks into place 21:55:29 aha 21:55:57 ais523, how was it done back in the 1980s or so, because you wouldn't have as large batches back then 21:56:19 smaller markets 21:56:33 AnMaster: my guess is much the same way, and the chips ended up more expensive as a result 21:56:44 ais523, yet they were able to produce C64 and such? 21:56:53 even though market was smaller 21:57:38 just consider the sound chipset for it, to a modern sound chipset, surely the modern one has been produced in lot more copies 22:01:37 heh, this is great 22:01:44 I get a massively big circuit diagram I can look at 22:02:03 and I can double click on a component, and it highlights a single instance of the word "if" in the source code, for instance 22:03:32 ha 22:12:20 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:12:48 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:13:45 -!- JohnWins has changed nick to MigoMipo. 22:20:04 -!- ais523_ has joined. 22:21:12 -!- olsner has joined. 22:22:08 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 22:23:53 ▁▇▅▄█▃▄▁▂▆ 22:24:02 ehird: that's an interesting Unicode-art graph 22:24:07 it's a unicode sparkline 22:24:12 btw, ohw do people here think Unicode art compares to ASCII art? 22:24:16 ▁▁▂▃▄▄▅▆▇█ 22:24:21 % 1 to 10 22:24:22 *^ 22:24:23 and what's a sparkline? 22:24:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparkline 22:24:39 in this case, essentially a mini graph 22:25:08 yep 22:25:19 the unicode blocks are a bit ugly, but there you go 22:25:22 i wrote a program to do it 22:25:51 █▉▊▋▌▍▎ 22:26:59 heh, I just decompiled the resulting circuit into VHDL 22:27:01 it's an utter mess 22:27:13 with variable names like un75_prng_1_s_8_n_XORG 22:27:14 ▖ 22:27:14 ▗▟ 22:27:56 whee, now it accepts input from stdin too 22:28:03 lovely little 40-line hack. 22:28:33 of course, unicode sparklines were someone elses idea and my script is almost identical to their(mozilla ubiquity)'s but there's not that many ways to implement this :P 22:28:50 % seq 1 10 | sparkline 22:28:50 ▁▁▂▃▄▄▅▆▇█ 22:29:00 now to make it scale M values into N values 22:29:05 i.e., you can compress 1000 data points into 10 22:29:13 not hard 22:29:21 just split the list every M values, and mean it up 22:29:27 hmm, maybe that should go into another program 22:29:27 like 22:29:41 % seq 1 1000 | squish 10 | sparkline 22:29:43 thoughts? 22:30:15 what does squish do? 22:30:25 ah, skips every nth element? 22:30:29 ais523_: no 22:30:34 oh, averages blocks of n elements 22:30:38 pretty much, yep 22:30:46 hrmph, squish requires me to duplicate this code 22:30:47 if sys.argv[1:]: 22:30:48 input = sys.argv[1:] 22:30:50 else: 22:30:52 input = re.split(r'\s+', sys.stdin.read().strip()) 22:30:54 numbers = map(float, input) 22:30:56 :-) 22:30:58 well, almost 22:31:00 sys.argv[2:] 22:31:07 since first arg is number to squish too 22:31:08 *to 22:33:56 we should so make an esolang based on VHDL 22:34:01 even though it's arguably an esolang itself 22:34:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:39:31 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 22:41:00 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:41:04 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:42:23 hmm... since when did become a block element on Slashdot? 22:42:30 OK, I get that it's unsemantic 22:42:41 my gtalk status line: Azure a Flatus volant Or 22:42:45 but still... 22:42:57 lament: looks like a coat of arms description 22:43:08 yeah, it's a blazon 22:47:06 ais523: do you think squish(1) should expand values too? 22:47:07 e.g. 22:47:11 squish 3 1 2 22:47:13 would become 22:47:14 1 1.5 2 22:48:14 may as well 22:48:19 also, wouldn't the 1 2 be on stdin 22:48:21 that's harder though :-) 22:48:23 ais523: can be 22:48:24 or can it take from stdin or arguments? 22:48:27 if you omit the arguments, it reads from stdin 22:48:32 same with sparkline(1) 22:48:39 * ehird tries to figure out how to do expansion easily 22:50:36 uh oh 22:50:37 % squish 3 1 2 3 4 | xargs echo 22:50:38 1 2 3 4 22:50:40 I hate off by one errors 22:52:25 yay, fixed 22:52:41 ok, who has a bunchload of numbers they want turned into a sparkline? 22:52:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye"). 22:53:28 hmm? 22:54:52 jm 22:54:54 hm* 22:54:54 idea 22:55:00 I just had a great idea... 22:55:04 that netbsd toaster 22:55:08 ehird: http://www.eveandersson.com/pi/digits/1000000 22:55:08 it should have transactions 22:55:15 so if you cancel the toast 22:55:20 they aren't burnt! 22:55:33 no idea how to implement it :( 22:55:53 Deewiant: hee, sure 22:56:14 and then http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/htmltest/gifcity/e.1mil 22:59:17 http://filebin.ca/nastsa/pi_data.txt (16 million) 23:00:26 http://ja0hxv.calico.jp/pai/epivalue.html <-- 100 billion... split over multiple files 23:00:35 initial testing: 23:00:36 % curl http://www.eveandersson.com/pi/digits/1000000 2>/dev/null | python -c 'from BeautifulSoup import BeautifulSoup; import sys; print " ".join(list(BeautifulSoup(sys.stdin).pre.renderContents().replace("\n", "").replace("3.", "")))' | wc -w 23:00:38 1000000 23:00:40 good 23:00:45 ok, now to | squish 100 | sparkline 23:01:05 % curl http://www.eveandersson.com/pi/digits/1000000 2>/dev/null | python -c 'from BeautifulSoup import BeautifulSoup; import sys; print " ".join(list(BeautifulSoup(sys.stdin).pre.renderContents().replace("\n", "").replace("3.", "")))' | squish 100 | sparkline 23:01:07 ▄▆▄▆▄▃▄▃▂▅▄▅▁▅▄▅▅▅▆▅▂▄▄▄▆▅▇▅▅▅▅▅▄▇▆▅▂▁▄▂▄▆▄▇▄▅▇▇▆▅▂▆▇▆▆▂▆▆▂▅▅▃▄▂▃▅▆▃▃▇▃▄█▅▄▂▆▆▄▇▃▅▄▇▅▆▂▆▆▄▄▃▂▆▆▆▅▃▁▄ 23:01:11 http://ja0hxv.calico.jp/pai/ee1value.html <-- e to 100 billion digits, again multiple files 23:01:11 Deewiant: you're welcome. 23:01:15 that python invocation is really ugly though. 23:01:17 ehird, wtf is that? 23:01:26 some bars in unicode? 23:01:26 ehird: :-) 23:01:26 AnMaster: that's the first million digits of pi, graphed as a sparkline 23:01:30 you know, what we've been discussing. 23:01:36 ehird, I was afk 23:01:39 ah. 23:01:46 Deewiant: conclusion: pi is random :P 23:01:46 ehird: so how does that come out to less than a million characters 23:01:56 Deewiant: | squish 100 | 23:01:56 i.e. what does the squishing do 23:02:10 ehird: yeah, but what's the transformation 23:02:11 Deewiant: basically, it divides the input into the right amount of segments 23:02:16 and runs mean on them 23:02:30 % squish 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 | xargs echo 23:02:30 1.5 3.5 5.5 7.5 9.5 23:02:43 (first arg is result length) 23:03:01 ehird, links for these programs? 23:03:12 right, so you preserve the arithmetic mean 23:03:13 AnMaster: ~ehird/bin/{squish,sparkline} 23:03:21 ehird, care to pastebin them? 23:03:23 :) 23:03:28 AnMaster: sure, after I've processed e 23:03:34 ehird, right :) 23:04:34 the python invocation is ugly, but html scraping is ugly. 23:04:43 % squish 3 1 2 3 4 | xargs echo 23:04:43 1 2 3 4 <-- why the xargs echo? 23:04:48 AnMaster: because it outputs one per line 23:04:52 ah 23:04:54 since that's the unixy standard 23:05:00 true 23:05:23 ehird, would you say sendmail is unixy? 23:05:41 it doesn't exactly do one thing, and it doesn't exactly do it well. 23:05:43 so... no. 23:05:54 ehird, it is however traditional unix software 23:05:55 :) 23:06:04 so unix isn't unixy 23:06:15 correct. 23:06:22 what about dd? 23:06:25 plan 9 is the first system applying the unix philosophy to a reasonable degree 23:06:27 I don't think it is unixy 23:06:34 AnMaster: it's a swiss army knife, and it's inconsistent with hte rest of the system 23:06:35 -> not unixy 23:06:44 Deewiant: here comes yer e sparkline 23:06:46 ehird, indeed, command line argument format is weird 23:06:52 % curl http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/htmltest/gifcity/e.1mil 2>/dev/null | python -c 'from BeautifulSoup import BeautifulSoup; import sys; print " ".join(list(BeautifulSoup(sys.stdin).hr.nextSibling.replace("e =", "").replace(" ", "").replace("\n", "").replace("2.", "")))' | squish 100 | sparkline 23:06:53 ▄▂▃▄▄▁▁▄▄▄▄▂▃▄▄▁▂▃▂▆▂▃▅▄▇▄▂▅▅▅▃▄▃▂▅▃▂▃▄▅▄▁█▅▃▂▄▅▁▄▄▄▄▄▃▃▁▄▄▅▃▃▅▆▄▃▄▄▅▄▂▂▃▄▄▄▃▄▂▅▂▄▄▇▅▅▄▅▄▆▃▄▆▄▄▃▃▃▅▅ 23:06:57 conclusion: e is also random. 23:07:21 interestingly, 23:07:27 squish gives _all_ 4s 23:07:29 i.e. 23:07:32 4.5119 4.4689 4.481 4.5036 4.5132 4.4527 4.4554 4.5137 4.5147 (...) 23:07:39 I wonder why? that's very odd. 23:07:46 ehird, did it do so for pi too? 23:07:51 I'll check 23:08:09 ... yes. 23:08:13 ehird, a bug? 23:08:26 anyway please pastebin sparkline? 23:08:32 I don't think it's a bug, % seq 1 1000 | squish 100 works fine 23:08:37 I guess it's just an odd numerical property o_O 23:08:40 rather obvious? 23:08:42 AnMaster: yes, I will in a bit 23:08:46 Deewiant: is it? elaborate :P 23:08:47 ehird: it's around 9/2 23:08:52 ah 23:09:03 and we've got stuff in the range 0-9 randomly distributed 23:09:13 of course 23:09:14 ah I see 23:09:21 one thing that saddens me about squish/sparkline 23:09:26 ? 23:09:29 is that there's one piece of almost identical code in them :P 23:09:35 sparkline: 23:09:37 if sys.argv[1:]: 23:09:37 input = sys.argv[1:] 23:09:38 ehird: make a library out of it 23:09:39 else: 23:09:41 input = filter(None, re.split(r'\s+', sys.stdin.read().strip())) or [0] 23:09:43 numbers = map(float, input) 23:09:45 squish: 23:09:47 if sys.argv[2:]: 23:09:49 input = sys.argv[2:] 23:09:50 ehird, command line parsing you mean 23:09:51 else: 23:09:53 input = filter(None, re.split(r'\s+', sys.stdin.read().strip())) 23:09:55 numbers = map(float, input) 23:09:57 Deewiant: surely too small for that 23:09:59 I don't want to tell people "Also, download this lib." 23:10:01 AnMaster: not really 23:10:02 ehird: surely not 23:10:03 just "give me inputs from arguments or stdin" 23:10:22 ehird: doesn't python have some kind of magical library installation tool 23:10:23 Deewiant: % curl http://blahblah -O blah; blah 23:10:28 is fast 23:10:28 like CPAN, cabal, DSSS, etc 23:10:29 Deewiant: yes 23:10:37 but tbh 23:10:39 it's 5 SLOC 23:10:40 who cares 23:10:50 re.split(r'\s+', sys.stdin.read().strip()) == sys.stdin.read().strip().split() 23:10:54 5 SLOC times 100 projects is 500 SLOC 23:11:13 MizardX: does that split on all whitespace? 23:11:16 yes 23:11:19 okay then 23:11:33 MizardX: what about the filter(None, ) ugliness? 23:11:39 it's to stop empty inputs giving [''] 23:13:13 (w for w in sys.stdin.read().strip().split() if w) ... maybe better with filter 23:13:31 yeah, I'll just put it in a library if I ever expand it 23:13:41 % wc -l sparkline 23:13:42 38 sparkline 23:13:43 % wc -l squish 23:13:45 52 squish 23:13:47 not bad. 23:13:51 I should probably run slocc or something on them instead. 23:14:11 [ float(w) for w in sys.stdin.read().strip().split() if w ] 23:14:30 nah, the float mapping is after to not duplicate it per input source 23:14:54 ehird, download link? going brb in a sec 23:15:00 brb 23:15:08 AnMaster: sheesh, be patient 23:16:18 strip().split() does not leave any empty elements 23:16:27 oh, nice 23:16:43 there, that's better 23:17:00 % squish 3 1 23:17:00 Fewer numbers (1) than the target amount (3)! 23:17:13 I probably need a squap or something to expand. 23:17:21 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:18:12 -!- puzzlet has joined. 23:18:35 What's the first argument for? 23:19:02 MizardX: target numbers 23:19:12 squish N means "squish the values I give you into N values" 23:19:22 % seq 1 100 | squish 10 | xargs echo 23:19:22 5.5 15.5 25.5 35.5 45.5 55.5 65.5 75.5 85.5 95.5 23:20:29 oh, {ehird} (first arg is result length) 23:21:03 I was confused by % squish 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 | xargs echo -> 1.5 3.5 5.5 7.5 9.5 23:21:09 :) 23:21:17 mostly you'll give it stuff via stdin 23:21:37 ehird: xargs echo? that's clever 23:21:41 yes 23:21:42 normally I do that using tr 23:22:10 seems like an utter abuse of xargs 23:22:16 actually 23:22:18 just xargs works 23:22:25 % seq 1 100 | squish 10 | xargs 23:22:25 5.5 15.5 25.5 35.5 45.5 55.5 65.5 75.5 85.5 95.5 23:22:27 who'dathunkit? 23:23:14 it's still an abuse 23:23:21 xargs = print sys.stdin.read().strip().split() :) 23:23:32 err, no 23:23:35 on DJGPP, xargs does weird stuff to avoid ever passing the arguments directly 23:23:40 due to the command-line length limit 23:23:43 xargs = print ' '.join(sys.stdin.read().strip().split('\n')) 23:23:50 or rather, xargs echo 23:23:53 ais523: it's not an abuse 23:23:56 ah, forgot join 23:24:03 we have values on multiple lines, and we want to give them as arguments to one command - echo 23:24:07 that is what xargs is for 23:24:08 well, I suppose so 23:24:12 xargs defaulting to echo is just even more convenient 23:24:19 MizardX: and splitting on '\n' 23:24:21 I see xargs as passing file lists to things, specifically 23:24:26 back 23:24:33 ais523: then you see wrong 23:24:37 NAME 23:24:37 xargs -- construct argument list(s) and execute utility 23:24:39 ais523, nah, you use -exec to find 23:24:44 ais523, much safer 23:24:44 MizardX: hmm actually xargs splits on all whitespace 23:24:50 considering newlines in filenames 23:24:53 and so on 23:25:00 yeah I put newlines in my filenames all the time. 23:25:13 ehird: does `printf "ab cd\nef gh" | xargs ls` list the files "ab cd" and "ef gh" 23:25:17 ehird, if I want to run a script as root to clean out /tmp 23:25:19 or the 4 files ab cd ef gh? 23:25:27 ais523: latter 23:25:35 ehird: something's wrong, then 23:25:35 well 23:25:39 unusable to me then 23:25:40 ais523: why? 23:25:43 it splits on all whitespace 23:25:50 since I often need to work on files with spaces in them 23:26:04 AnMaster: sure. 23:26:05 ehird: so why are you explicitly splitting on \n in your program above 23:26:15 AnMaster: so do I, mostly trying to deal with Windows program URLs via Wine 23:26:16 ais523: 23:24 MizardX: hmm actually xargs splits on all whitespace 23:26:26 anyway, I have to go now 23:26:32 or I'll miss the last bus 23:26:33 ais523, cya 23:26:39 -!- ais523 has quit. 23:26:39 afk again 23:27:59 Deewiant: any other numbers you want graphed? 23:28:13 ooh, I should graph the size of the IRC logs in #esoteric 23:31:26 from 03.01.17 to 08.10.31: 23:31:27 % wc -c *.*.* | head -n -1 | perl -pe's/\s+(\d+).*/$1/' | squish 100 | sparkline 23:31:28 ▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▂▃▁▂▂▂▂▂▃▁▁▁▂▂▁▁▁▁▂▁▁▃▃▂▂▂▁▁▄▃▂▂▃▂▁▂▂▄▅▄▃▂▃▃▂▃▄▄▃▆▅▄▃▄▆▇▇▆▆█ 23:31:39 conclusion: this place only gets more active over time. 23:32:16 tl;dr 10-length version: ▁▁▁▁▂▂▃▄▄█ 23:33:23 tl;dr 2-length comedy version: ▁█ 23:38:02 :D 23:38:31 def chunked(iterable,size): return itertools.izip(*[iter(iterable)]*size) ... print ' '.join(str(1.0 * sum(chk) / len(chk)) for chk in chunked((float(x) for x in sys.argv[2:] or sys.stdin.read().strip().split()),int(sys.argv[1]))) 23:38:32 whoaaaa ,this looks awesome: http://pastie.org/362943.txt 23:38:39 MizardX: ok, and ? : 23:38:40 :P 23:38:48 your chunking fails 23:38:53 as it doesn'taccount non-divisible lengths 23:39:14 so... mine is more elegant, works better, and is probably faster :-P 23:41:17 p.s. i generated that arrow like this 23:41:17 for i in `seq 20`; do (seq $i; seq $i | tac) | sparkline; done; for i in `seq 20 | tac`; do (seq $i; seq $i | tac) | sparkline; done 23:51:40 Deewiant: i just read one of your reddit comments! 23:51:43 everyone should stop internet-stalking me 23:51:54 ehird 23:52:00 what on earth are you doing there 23:52:19 i'd tell you, but it'd be annoyingly tedious and you wouldn't understand. 23:53:41 i get that you're graphing channel activity 23:53:47 i was more nterested in what you're using to do it 23:54:00 wc(1), squish(1) and sparkline(1) 23:54:15 the latter two I wrote myself 23:54:28 also, the pastie link I gave is just to some random arty thing I made with it 23:54:30 not channel activity 23:55:42 http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/2177201ae448ab894682b16d557f5544fb678e7b 23:56:35 kioskmongo! 23:58:55 and i presume wc, squish, and sparkline are run in the shell? 23:59:15 ehird, so link? 23:59:22 if not I'm going to bed in a second 2009-01-17: 00:02:06 naw. 00:02:08 psygnisfive: no shit 00:02:53 ok. i was just curious. 00:03:01 so! ehird, how do you make your ircbots? 00:03:08 by hand. 00:03:13 yes :P 00:03:22 i mean what languages/tools do you use to achieve it 00:03:23 ehird, no download? 00:03:51 AnMaster: not yet :D 00:04:00 psygnisfive: Python or whatever. 00:04:08 ehird, well can you paste it in /msg so I can read it tomorrow then? 00:04:13 since I'm going to bed now 00:04:18 what, you can't read the logs? :P 00:04:24 and I usually run out of logs 00:04:24 fine 00:04:29 thanks a lot ehird 00:04:41 if you use python, how do you hook into IRC? 00:04:44 * AnMaster need to go to buy some more logs at the mall tomorrow 00:04:52 needs* 00:06:58 night all! 00:07:07 psygnisfive: a network connection. 00:07:13 do you know anything about programming...? 00:09:15 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:09:27 yes, ehird, i know plenty about programming. :P 00:09:32 evidently. 00:09:41 i DONT know about using python to connect to an IRC server 00:09:50 learn about network programming. 00:09:53 then, learn the irc protocol. 00:09:56 then put the two together. 00:10:26 an appropriate answer from you would be something more like "I use the so and so class to handle the communication with the server" 00:10:26 :P 00:10:27 psygnisfive: do you know how to IRC over telnet? 00:10:34 also, I don't. 00:10:47 I write/read the IRC protocol to a socket because it's trivial and wrapping irc only leads to pain along the line. 00:11:09 ok. 00:11:25 psygnisfive: do you know how to irc over telnet? 00:11:31 no 00:11:48 psygnisfive: open a shell. 00:11:48 telnet irc.freenode.net 6667 00:11:48 type this in: 00:11:59 USER blahblah * * :foo baz 00:12:03 NICK blahblahfoo 00:12:05 JOIN #esoteric 00:12:10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :HELLO 00:13:13 connection timed out :( 00:13:25 psygnisfive: at which part? 00:13:59 NOTICE AUTH :*** Looking up your hostname... 00:14:00 NOTICE AUTH :*** Checking ident 00:14:01 NOTICE AUTH :*** Found your hostname 00:14:03 NOTICE AUTH :*** No identd (auth) response 00:14:05 ERROR :Closing Link: 127.0.0.1 (Connection Timed Out) 00:14:07 Connection closed by foreign host. 00:14:17 psygnisfive: you typed too slowly 00:14:19 type the USER/NICK lines faster 00:14:26 the login procedure is timed 00:14:28 the rest isn't though 00:14:36 oh i didnt realize that that was the "prompt" so to speak. 00:14:41 yes. 00:14:43 it was just a blank line. hah. 00:14:44 ok. 00:15:11 Heh 00:15:12 what are the parts of USER blah blah * * :foo baz? 00:15:19 err 00:15:22 it's USER blahblah * * :foo baz 00:15:27 psygnisfive: do it first, then you'll se 00:15:28 e 00:15:32 :P 00:16:24 psygnisfive: well? 00:16:32 same thing. 00:16:46 NOTICE AUTH :*** Looking up your hostname... 00:16:46 NOTICE AUTH :*** Found your hostname, welcome back 00:16:47 psygnisfive: copy the shell session and paste it here 00:16:48 NOTICE AUTH :*** Checking ident 00:16:50 NOTICE AUTH :*** No identd (auth) response 00:16:52 USER blahblah * * :foo baz 00:16:52 ok 00:16:54 ERROR :Closing Link: 127.0.0.1 (Connection Timed Out) 00:16:56 Connection closed by foreign host. 00:17:02 psygnisfive: start typing as soon as you hit enter on the telnet 00:17:05 you don't have to wait for the server lines 00:17:08 ok. 00:17:25 -!- blahblahfoo has joined. 00:17:28 HELLO 00:17:34 blahblahfoo: HELLO TO YOU TOO 00:17:55 psygnisfive: do a /whois blahblahfoo in your regular client 00:17:57 ... I'm anmaster... look it works, same lines you pasted ehird. So well 00:18:07 wut 00:18:13 blahblahfoo == PEBKAC 00:18:14 he's saying that its not me 00:18:15 err 00:18:15 cause its not 00:18:18 psygnisfive 00:18:23 is having PEBKAC 00:18:26 if he fails to connect 00:18:34 he just succeeded, dumbass 00:18:36 see above 00:18:37 -!- blahblahfoo has quit (Client Quit). 00:18:41 that was anmaster 00:18:46 oh. 00:18:46 ehird, that was me yes 00:18:49 * blahblahfoo (n=blahblah@d90-130-2-10.cust.tele2.se) has joined #esoteric 00:18:53 .cust.tele2.se 00:18:53 ... I'm anmaster 00:19:05 sooo, psygnisfive try again: P 00:19:10 psygnisfive, also if you fail at it you are pasting too fast or too slow 00:19:23 shut up AnMaster 00:19:32 being condescending is not helpful, unless you're microsoft. 00:19:55 darryl-mcadamss-macbook-pro-15:~ darrylmcadams$ telnet irc.freenode.net 6667 00:19:56 Trying 209.177.146.34... 00:19:57 USER blahblah * * :foo bazConnected to chat.freenode.net. 00:19:59 Escape character is '^]'. 00:20:00 ehird, how it is helpful if you are MS? 00:20:01 USER blahblah * * :foo bazNOTICE AUTH :*** Looking up your hostname... 00:20:03 NOTICE AUTH :*** Found your hostname, welcome back 00:20:05 NOTICE AUTH :*** Checking ident 00:20:07 NOTICE AUTH :*** No identd (auth) response 00:20:09 ERROR :Closing Link: 127.0.0.1 (Connection Timed Out) 00:20:11 Connection closed by foreign host. 00:20:12 psygnisfive: where's the NICK line. 00:20:17 yes indeed 00:20:24 oops. :D 00:20:29 00:11 type this in: 00:20:29 00:12 USER blahblah * * :foo baz 00:20:30 00:12 NICK blahblahfoo 00:20:32 00:12 JOIN #esoteric 00:20:34 00:12 PRIVMSG #esoteric :HELLO 00:21:06 theeere we do. 00:21:19 i see no blahblahfoo in here. 00:21:21 have you done the other lines? 00:21:22 psygnisfive, also read RFC 1459, though no one obey it 00:21:25 no. 00:21:26 hold on you 00:21:28 don't read rfc 1459. 00:21:30 it's worthless 00:21:33 ehird, better than nothing 00:21:39 not really. 00:21:45 -!- augur_ has joined. 00:21:56 hi augur_ 00:22:10 heh 00:22:10 oi, augur_ 00:22:13 nice 00:22:16 do a PRIVMSG 00:22:28 x.x 00:22:29 though he fails to type when his input seems to get overwritten I bet 00:22:43 AnMaster: fuck off if you're just going to talk about how much of an idiot he is, please 00:22:52 ehird, well I fail at it 00:22:55 so.. 00:22:59 yeah 00:23:00 no I'm not saying that 00:23:03 k 00:23:06 it takes getting used to 00:23:20 shit does get overwritten 00:23:24 hm did I part and join? 00:23:32 psygnisfive: so, now you've seen: 00:23:33 and ignoring the overwrite doesnt suffice 00:23:33 how to connect 00:23:35 how to join 00:23:38 how to send a message 00:23:39 * AnMaster is testing his bnc "don't part channel ever" 00:23:40 and 00:23:40 ehird, ^ 00:23:42 so i have, sir, so i have! 00:23:44 what received messages look like 00:23:47 AnMaster: nope, you didn't 00:23:53 psygnisfive: so. 00:23:53 ehird, great it works finally _D 00:23:54 :D* 00:24:02 psygnisfive: open a tcp socket to irc.freenode.net, port 6667 00:24:09 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:24:10 print the connection lines, including a join 00:24:18 then just use a regexp to match the incoming message lines as you see 00:24:22 and react with matching privmsgs 00:24:26 yep. thank you sir :D 00:24:28 btw, it's USER ident * * :realname 00:24:35 is what the USER command does 00:24:37 ehird, those * have meaning though 00:24:40 ok 00:24:41 AnMaster: not really 00:24:45 in the newer irc rfc, yes. 00:24:49 in the older one, everyone ignores them. 00:24:52 00:24:55 net result is it's best to leave them as * 00:25:03 but you value standards over things that actually work, I realise 00:25:06 ehird, true 00:25:13 no one use them 00:25:14 if i get around to coding my little language, i will create a bot for it 00:25:20 I was just pointing out that they have meaning 00:25:29 so youz guys can play with it 00:25:32 if you want 00:25:34 cool. 00:25:41 make sure to pick an obscure bot prefix :P 00:25:46 say, $$ or something 00:25:47 $$ code 00:25:52 i need a name for the language first tho 00:26:03 psygnisfive: fgsfds 00:26:07 BRILLIANT 00:26:42 % (seq 10 | tac; seq 10) | sparkline 00:26:42 █▇▆▅▄▄▃▂▁▁▁▁▂▃▄▄▅▆▇█ 00:26:43 wheeeeeeeeeee 00:26:57 i find it mildly humorous that theres a book on tree-based automata called "tata" 00:27:20 ehird: (for i in 1 2 3; do seq 10 | tac; seq 10; done) | sparkline 00:27:27 should be fun 00:27:33 maybe you need 9 at the end 00:27:34 not sure 00:27:56 AnMaster: ok, now make it cycle around and do a clear each time :-) 00:27:57 so you get waves 00:28:12 ehird, well pastebin the result? 00:28:23 hm? 00:28:27 % (for i in 1 2 3; do seq 10 | tac; seq 10; done) | sparkline 00:28:28 █▇▆▅▄▄▃▂▁▁▁▁▂▃▄▄▅▆▇██▇▆▅▄▄▃▂▁▁▁▁▂▃▄▄▅▆▇██▇▆▅▄▄▃▂▁▁▁▁▂▃▄▄▅▆▇█ 00:28:32 right 00:28:37 ehird, as for waves hm... 00:28:39 just making that cycle around + clear should make waves 00:28:46 can you start somewhere else? 00:28:53 rolling hills! 00:28:56 as in 1..10..1 00:28:58 and so on 00:28:59 err 00:29:03 AnMaster: using seq, 00:29:05 seq START END 00:29:10 (seq END is seq 1 END) 00:29:22 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:29:26 ehird, you need to move the start/end one to the left each time 00:29:29 before the clear 00:29:32 yes 00:29:36 * ehird tries 00:29:52 well I won't try write it unless you paste your sparkline program 00:30:11 pastebin* 00:30:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 00:30:41 so night really now, I need to sleep 00:30:46 % j=1;while true; do (for i in 1 2 3; do seq $j $((j+10)) | tac; seq $j $((j+10)); done) | sparkline; j=$((j+1)); done 00:30:47 doesn't work 00:30:52 since it just outputs the same thing all the time 00:31:06 ehird, can't help you debug it without the script 00:31:08 ;P 00:31:20 the script has defined behaviour that you already know, so no you don't nede the script :P 00:31:30 ehird, also I pasted the irc log example in another channel, they thought it was really cool 00:31:45 if you put it up you should reddit! 00:31:50 you mean ▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▂▃▁▂▂▂▂▂▃▁▁▁▂▂▁▁▁▁▂▁▁▃▃▂▂▂▁▁▄▃▂▂▃▂▁▂▂▄▅▄▃▂▃▃▂▃▄▄▃▆▅▄▃▄▆▇▇▆▆█? 00:31:52 yeah, that one looks nice 00:31:59 ehird, yeah think it was that one 00:32:04 :) 00:32:08 which channel btw? 00:32:11 <~Spaz> wtf? 00:32:11 <~Spaz> that's really cool 00:32:11 <~Spaz> unicode graphs 00:32:11 <~Lapper> That is pretty damn cool. 00:32:14 hee 00:32:18 ehird, private channel on another network 00:32:26 ehird, invite only, by owner 00:32:40 i visited one of them once, till i realised i didn't like anyone there 00:32:57 ehird, one of those persons? 00:33:04 hm? 00:33:05 or "such a channel"? 00:33:11 such a channel yeah 00:33:15 ah 00:33:19 except anyone there is allowed to invite anyone else 00:33:19 well, I like that one 00:33:23 one problem with sparkline(1) is that, well, you only have 8 different heights of bar 00:33:26 due to unicode only having that many 00:33:31 well true 00:33:34 the full bar 00:33:36 i might make it so that it can stack them 00:33:38 i.e. use multiple lines 00:33:40 exactly 00:33:44 what I was going to say 00:33:46 so it doubles per line :P 00:34:03 ehird, as in a NxM grid 00:34:11 it'll just be something like 00:34:24 sparkline -l 3 00:34:24 -w 100 -h 5 00:34:25 or so 00:34:26 for 3 lines max 00:34:33 ah wait 00:34:37 ehird, yes ok 00:34:38 AnMaster: for width just use squish on the values first 00:34:43 right 00:34:44 :) 00:34:54 ehird, now can I try the current version please? 00:34:58 why is it so secret!? 00:35:05 sheesh, fine I'll link you a paste in privmsg :D 00:35:11 (and it's secret because it's fun being secret :D) 00:35:11 thanks :D 00:35:16 :< 00:35:25 ehird, I hate xmas because everyone is secret 00:35:29 lol 00:49:02 guys! 00:49:14 a friend has said something about this: http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-malbolge-995.html 00:49:32 namely, that the odd striations look like a 1D CA's evolution 00:49:49 okay 00:49:55 it's just coincidence though 00:49:58 sure 00:50:00 just how malbolge works 00:50:10 This pattern (diagonal lines of characters roughly parallel to y = -x) is not a feature of the code. 00:50:11 My programming method uses many "NOP" intructions, 00:50:13 that is why the pattern will occur corresponding to the specification of Malbolge. 00:50:28 but... i challenge you to design a 1D CA who's time evolution infact generates valid malbolge code. :D 00:50:29 -!- adimit has joined. 00:50:32 or BF code or something. 00:50:38 there he is 00:50:44 haha. 00:51:01 hi adimit 00:51:27 cmon ehird, you know you wanna do it 00:51:27 I think BF might be easier/more natural to a CA though. Malbogle has too many characters, and CAs actually only have two 'characters' 00:51:33 hi ehird :-) 00:51:36 ok BF then 00:51:48 and CA's dont need just two cell states 00:52:19 right, but having a CA with that many cell states might prove... well, more difficult. 00:52:42 adimit, this is #esoteric. more difficult is half the fun! 00:54:25 sorry, I'm new to the game :-) 00:54:56 ehird whats your favorite esolang? 00:55:07 or which esolang do you write the most code in 00:55:22 favourite: Underload or Unlambda, probably 00:55:28 most written: probably underload with fungot here 00:55:29 ehird: come, come to an endangered species... both of us... it'd be sad about? you don't have anywhere or anyone to go to work, back to life at some time... 00:55:55 fungot's a regular postmodernist poet 00:55:55 psygnisfive: right, cloud.... too? with super glue? oh, i'm pissed! i doubt shinra will attack now. 00:56:10 ^style 00:56:10 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7* fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 00:56:11 i think i understand him better than i do finnegans wake 00:56:15 ^style fisher 00:56:15 Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations) 00:56:23 psygnisfive: oh man. fizzie: PUT FINNEGAN'S WAKE INTO FUNGOT! 00:56:25 fungot: hi 00:56:26 ehird: you know for yourself whatever and i said this is what i heard as well 00:56:32 ehird dont 00:56:34 dont do it 00:56:38 you'll kill fizzie 00:56:38 :DD 00:56:57 adimit: btw, here's your initiation goat, sacrifice it: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 00:56:58 ehird: i'm in kentucky my name is rhea noise yeah 00:57:00 (that's the source to fungot) 00:57:01 ehird: and that's it and um they're back in school and everything i i'm sure glad i don't live like where my parents live in pittsburgh but i live in 00:57:21 ^ul (it also interprets underload)S 00:57:21 it also interprets underload 00:57:25 ^bf ,[.,]!and bf! 00:57:25 and bf! 00:57:53 did fizzie really code all of that? 00:57:54 man.. 00:57:58 yes 00:58:04 you see what i mean, adimit? 00:58:05 i take it you haven't seen mycology 00:58:20 psygnisfive: http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/files/befunge/mycology/mycology.zip 00:58:23 open mycology.b98 00:58:28 and gape in awe at Deewiant's insanity 00:58:48 whats mycology?? is that one of his esolangs? 00:58:52 ehird: what? is? that? 00:59:01 psygnisfive: mycology is a test suite for befunge 98, same language fungot is written in 00:59:02 ehird: it would drive me absolutely nuts i could never move anywhere the traffic would drive me crazy but uh uh 00:59:04 it tests just about everything 00:59:06 it is crazy 00:59:13 adimit: the befunge-98 source code to the fungot irc bot! 00:59:22 ^help 00:59:22 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 00:59:37 ^ul str:N 00:59:37 ...bad insn! 00:59:43 heh, guess he never got that working 01:00:09 nice :-) 01:00:33 I was actually writing an IRC bot in Prolog once, but that's not nearly half as fun as this thing... 01:00:47 the prolog source was actually readable. 01:00:50 i tried to write one in forth, but then I killed myself 01:00:51 holy shit ehird... 01:00:54 mycology wtf 01:01:30 x_x 01:02:20 I actually didn't pull through the prolog project either. The threading stuff was quite weird. But I started from scratch again, maybe I'll finish it someday. ##compling needs a better bot. 01:03:05 compling needs a bot that doesnt mention chomsky being cunnilingual every time you say "syntax" 01:03:06 :P 01:03:23 whats the purpose of the compling bot anyway 01:03:49 well, DrNI just put it online sometime. It doesn't have a purpose. I regularly kick it out if it gets on my nerves. 01:04:14 I was going to write one in Haskell, but there already is one.. 01:05:05 does fungot have BF interpreter? 01:05:05 adimit: yeah there here in arkansas it was the classics you know there were no 01:05:41 fungot: that sounds an awful lot like Mr. Markov spinning in his grave... 01:05:41 adimit: great great great while um i even did weightlifting for a while i like a lot 01:09:57 i once made a markov chain word generator that would take a sample test and use it the analyze the form of words with parameterized length of the string of letters that's used to predict the next letter in the word. 01:10:16 occasionally it'd reinvent an existing word that wasn't in its input data. 01:10:21 i was mildly happy when i saw that. 01:10:30 sample text* 01:29:58 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:41:13 -!- wkqwl has joined. 01:41:26 -!- wkqwl has set topic: tune into buttplugs and shitty ass languages!. 01:41:36 HEYYYYYYYYYYYYYY 01:41:37 i'm back! 01:41:44 -!- wkqwl has changed nick to wkqlqw. 01:42:46 -!- wkqlqw has changed nick to dviakawe. 01:42:52 dviakawe 01:42:54 hello 01:42:59 yessssssss 01:43:00 hello 01:43:06 please change the topic back to include the link to the logs. 01:43:16 i wont 01:43:17 fuck you 01:43:24 ehird 01:43:28 he removed the link to the logs 01:43:33 D: 01:44:06 dviakawe, are you randomly following me? lol 01:44:20 yes 01:44:25 looking for channels without +t 01:44:27 HEHEHE 01:44:31 go check the emacs topic 01:44:35 it works! 01:44:37 finally 01:44:44 your mom works 01:44:45 what does 01:44:45 stfu cunt 01:44:55 #emacs 01:44:57 hsi mom works 01:45:33 dont we have ops? 01:45:50 NOPE 01:45:57 why would you 01:46:56 hahahahaha 01:47:03 my dc is sooo much faster than gnu's 01:47:10 time echo "0sa1[la1+dsa*la10000>b]dsbx"|./a.out 01:47:17 user 0m0.128s 01:47:25 o.o; 01:47:31 time echo "0sa1[la1+dsa*la10000>b]dsbx"|dc 01:47:35 user 0m5.420s 01:48:02 only 40 times faster 02:00:26 -!- dviakawe has quit (Connection reset by peer). 02:01:32 i think it's because gnu dc 1) doesn't optimize tail-recursion, and 2) doesn't use the hardware stack for recursion 03:40:19 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:40:27 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:05:41 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:05:49 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:07:54 -!- Corun has joined. 04:57:35 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 05:24:31 hey guys optimize this function: http://pastebin.ca/1310636 05:25:46 I don't like optimizing code that isn't referentially transparent. 05:26:40 it's pointless to optimize code that's referentially transparent. 05:26:53 because interpreting it is going to be slow as hell anywa 05:27:23 Isn't that why you compile it instead? 05:27:49 same deal 05:58:29 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:58:37 -!- puzzlet has joined. 06:11:45 bsmntbombdood: Does mpz_init_set_str need a '\0'? Does it modify the input? Otherwise you could just give it *input. 06:13:05 yeah that's a possiblity 06:14:33 bsmntbombdood: If mpz_init_set_str does need a '\0', I'd change it to need a length-argument instead. Then you'd just need to calculate how long the number is... 06:15:23 mpz_init_set_str does need the '\0', but i think putting the '\0' in input would be ok 06:15:47 Was going to suggest that as a last possibility :P 06:26:25 ok i'm dumb 06:26:32 modifying input won't work 06:31:41 Even if you change it back when you're done? 06:35:00 Is mpz_init_set_str your own function? Maybe create a new mpz_init_set_strn(mpz_t* obj, char* str, int len, int base) ? 06:36:04 not my function 06:37:41 How about you count the number of digits, allocate just that amount (+1 for '\0'), and use strncpy? 06:37:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:39:09 MizardX: tried that already, it's slower 06:39:22 What does GETC do except *(*x++) ? 06:39:41 or something like that 06:40:09 it's just that 06:44:02 anyway, bed 06:44:10 shower and breakfast 06:46:43 *munch* 06:47:26 i mean hi 06:54:08 it should have transactions 06:57:25 "Ristet brød er nemt at lave, blot man vil erindre, at når det oser, skal det have to minutter mindre." - Piet Hein 06:58:05 * oerjan wishes the web could agree with itself on how to spell that quote 07:02:37 remove "at", i think 07:08:56 everyone should stop internet-stalking me 07:09:01 but that's no fun! 07:10:01 -!- Slereah_ has quit. 07:10:09 by hand. 07:10:42 finest handcrafted wooden irc bots 07:31:23 -!- Slereah has joined. 07:41:09 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:41:16 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:14:33 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:40:14 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:42:10 -!- puzzlet has joined. 08:57:44 -!- Mony has joined. 08:57:59 morning 08:58:09 hi ehird 08:58:23 "Ristet brød er nemt at lave, blot man vil erindre, at når det oser, skal det have to minutter mindre." - Piet Hein <-- translation? 08:58:36 * AnMaster is too sleepy to be able to parse Norwegian 08:59:43 rosen bread is "nemt at lave", but we want to remind, when it "oser", it shall have two minutes less? 08:59:46 that makes no sense 08:59:53 at this time in the morning 09:00:00 plop 09:08:09 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 09:09:18 -!- moozilla has joined. 09:21:58 -!- qwertyxxxxllll has joined. 09:32:38 AnMaster: actually it's danish 09:33:08 oerjan, ah 09:33:12 oerjan, and translation? 09:33:23 toast is easy to make, as long as you remember, when it's smoking, it needs two minutes less 09:33:39 aha 09:34:39 bus, or possibly haircut -> 09:34:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:35:04 hey 09:35:30 he can't use "->", he isn't from .fi... 09:35:40 Racist 09:37:53 Slereah, hm, nop, it is more like if someone would ask (in German) for directions to Trafalgar Square while being located in Paris. 09:38:43 Hey, this is the internet. 09:38:48 We've got international flavor. 09:42:06 Slereah, you don't think it would be a good idea to ask that in Paris? 09:42:07 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 09:42:35 Only because people would not understand 09:42:41 But here, we totally understand 09:43:11 Slereah, what about "as above, but 2 years after the end of the second world war"? 09:43:41 Was there an internet war here? 09:43:42 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:44:03 Slereah, true there wasn't 09:44:06 -!- oklopol has joined. 09:45:55 AnMaster, remember the wisdom of VIP quality : 09:45:56 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers7/Take%20it%20easy.jpg 09:46:22 -!- M0ny has joined. 09:46:42 Slereah, interesting pic, but I fail to see what the figures are supposed to be 09:47:03 Four kittens at a table. 09:47:15 that makes no sense then heh 09:47:19 Don't you know the 2channel kittens? 09:47:28 no 09:47:32 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers7/50GET.jpg 09:47:34 what is 2channel? 09:47:34 YOU SHOULD 09:47:42 Do you know 4chan, AnMaster? 09:47:49 I have heard of it. 09:48:05 2channel is sort of the grandfather of 4chan. 09:48:15 It's an anonymous BBS is Japan. 09:48:25 And the biggest motherfucking forum in the world :o 09:48:30 in Japan* 09:48:32 I have run into /b/tards on irc. Horrible. 09:48:41 Am I horrible? :( 09:48:59 you are an /b/tard? In that case I have seen much worse 09:49:04 a* 09:50:38 Since 2channel was a textboard, the memes could not be in pictures. 09:50:56 So there's a shitload of ASCII (or, more accurately, SJIS) art for it. 09:51:29 heh 09:51:56 Such as this little fellow here : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers7/Shii.jpg 09:52:22 You may remember her from this : http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/shii 09:52:34 I sure do, 'cause it was my first contact with chan culture :o 09:52:54 Slereah, from "missing plugin"? 09:53:08 Get flash negro 09:53:15 Slereah, I'm not going to 09:53:22 Damn you! 09:53:57 You can get a .mp4 here : http://keepvid.com/save-video.mp4?http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fget_video%3Fvideo_id%3DirF5fEMixng%26t%3DOEgsToPDskJ7hZfQUZ2c0P1OfX12Ahra%26fmt%3D18 09:54:39 well a youtube link I could play anyway. There is no need for flash for that. You can use mplayer if you know how. 09:55:03 Well, it's the .mp4 of a youtube video 09:55:45 no sound? 09:55:59 There should be! 09:56:04 there isn't 09:56:20 Youtube link is : http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=irF5fEMixng 09:56:21 VIDEO: [avc1] 320x240 24bpp 29.970 fps 0.0 kbps ( 0.0 kbyte/s) 09:56:22 Audio: no sound 09:57:13 Slereah, btw isn't that the awful "hello kitten" thing? It looks very similar anyway. 09:57:20 Nah. 09:57:43 It's just how it was rendered from the bunch of characters that makes up the original 09:58:07 Slereah, hm? 09:58:13 That's why you'll see one with a russian D for a mouth. 10:00:02 russian D? 10:00:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_(Cyrillic) 10:03:13 mhm 10:04:08 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:04:49 -!- M0ny has changed nick to Mony. 10:09:26 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:09:30 -!- puzzlet has joined. 10:16:37 Hm. 10:16:49 Is there a good free program to screencap videos? 10:17:01 Because I know there's none for flash to video 10:24:59 ooooooooooooooooooooo 10:25:06 so. 10:25:08 oooooooooooo 10:25:09 oooooooooooooooooooo 10:25:10 ooooooooooooooo 10:25:11 oooooooooooo 10:25:12 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 10:25:14 oooooooooooooooooooo 10:25:14 ooooooooooooo 10:25:16 ooooooooooooooooooo 10:25:17 oooooooooooooo 10:25:19 oooooooooooooooooooooooo 10:25:20 ko 10:25:21 oooooooooooooooooooo 10:25:23 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 10:25:25 that is all 10:25:51 Man, I got a video out, but no sound :( 10:27:04 link to logs to the topic plz. 10:27:28 -!- Mony has quit ("reboot xchat"). 10:28:12 -!- Mony has joined. 10:28:25 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:34:32 -!- Mony has joined. 10:36:30 -!- Mony has quit (Client Quit). 10:37:38 -!- Mony has joined. 10:37:50 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:38:58 -!- Mony has joined. 10:45:36 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 10:46:58 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:47:05 -!- puzzlet has joined. 10:51:55 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 10:52:50 -!- Mony has joined. 10:59:17 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 11:00:25 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:00:56 -!- Mony has joined. 11:10:15 bah 11:10:25 I can't get google to convert australian dollars 11:10:52 USD -> SEK works, but AUD doesn't 11:11:22 ooooooooooooooo 11:12:05 ah now it works 11:12:06 strange 11:12:17 oklopol, hi 11:13:41 hi 11:17:55 is oklopol a bot 11:25:57 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:26:53 moozilla, no 11:29:06 ah 11:29:07 kik 11:29:09 lol* 11:37:17 -!- Judofyr has joined. 11:44:59 -!- qwertyxxxxllll has left (?). 12:00:11 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:00:16 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:13:44 was fun talking to you, but now shoppe time -> 13:15:28 -!- decipher has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:15:44 -!- decipher has joined. 13:17:50 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:57:52 woot, Language::Befunge now runs mycology in 18 seconds!! http://jquelin.blogspot.com/2009/01/how-to-shave-10-speed.html 14:05:57 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:18:37 so what's the mycology speed record? 14:23:12 * oklopol considers running it manually 14:23:19 that might be a fun week 14:23:23 how long is it? 14:23:25 * oklopol checks source 14:23:39 oklopol: make sure you pass the test suite first 14:23:55 would be a shame to waste that week doing it all wrong 14:28:57 well i ran sanity.bf already 14:29:21 i wanna make a befunge interp now :< 14:29:28 * oklopol DEMANDS more time 14:36:41 ' 14:40:03 there's a part of mycology where it invokes the 'y' instruction 675 times (to test the timer fingerprint) 14:40:17 I bet that would get old quickly 14:40:48 hmm, so what happens if you forget a couple of hundred 'y's? 14:41:53 hmm 14:42:08 apparently it just discards the values that y pushes 14:42:38 I guess if you were doing it by hand you could optimise it :) 14:50:48 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 14:56:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:02:44 ¨ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ 15:02:47 ... 15:02:54 sorry that wasn't me. 15:03:05 Ä,,? 15:03:14 hm „? 15:03:21 oklopol, is that a double-comma? 15:03:25 i don't know what character that was. 15:03:31 how did you make it? 15:04:15 i didn't. it wasn't me. it was my blanket. 15:05:44 Ä (A umlaut), encoded in utf-8 as à + „ 15:06:49 so that was a blanket statement? 15:07:07 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 15:08:01 -!- oklopol has set topic: tune in for buttplugs and other aspects of esoteric programming. 15:09:52 no wait. 15:09:54 -!- oklopol has set topic: tune into buttplugs and shitty aSS languages!. 15:10:03 :) 15:10:08 truth in advertising! 15:10:15 but still no logs 15:10:32 yes someone should make like a bot that puts logs into topic 15:10:32 ... 15:11:40 should be possible with bsmnt_bot 15:11:50 stupid unicode breaking my (irssi|screen|PuTTY)! 15:12:11 breaking? 15:12:21 url: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric 15:12:37 -!- MizardX has set topic: tune into buttplugs and shitty aSS languages! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 15:12:49 irssi does... odd things... when people talk in unicode 15:13:01 the status bar disappears, that sort of thing 15:13:11 :P 15:14:05 Asztal: try setting some of the recode options 15:14:48 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:14:52 16:13 recode_autodetect_utf8 = ON 15:14:52 16:13 recode_fallback = CP1252 15:14:52 16:13 recode = ON 15:14:52 16:13 recode_out_default_charset = utf8 15:14:52 16:13 recode_transliterate = ON 15:14:55 hmm 15:15:11 it shouldn't be necessary though, all three are set to support unicode 15:15:21 oh 15:15:33 i'm using latin-1 still 15:16:18 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:16:22 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:17:23 but maybe it's screen, i'm not using that 15:22:47 -!- Asztal_ has joined. 15:23:12 -!- Azstal has joined. 15:24:21 ☃! 15:24:33 :( 15:33:59 Azstal, hm it is snowing and you don't like it? 15:36:52 in this SSH client, I see an a with a hat 15:36:59 in PuTTY, I just saw a box 15:38:13 in the logs, i saw a cat 15:39:41 but in either SSH client, that big line of funny As has turned into a diagonal line in irssi 15:39:44 very odd :( 15:45:58 -!- Asztal_ has quit ("leaving"). 15:46:35 -!- Asztal_ has joined. 15:53:11 -!- Asztal_ has quit ("leaving"). 15:53:24 -!- Asztal has quit ("leaving"). 15:55:22 -!- Asztal has joined. 15:57:01 -!- join has joined. 15:57:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 16:04:13 -!- Asztal has quit ("leaving"). 16:04:27 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:06:10 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:06:22 -!- Azstal has quit ("."). 16:10:46 -!- Corun has joined. 16:28:23 Hmm... A hollow sphere with the same mass as earth (but larger radius to compensate for the interior). How would gravity behave on the inside? Would you fall towards the centre? Would you be weight-less? Would you fall outwards towards the crust? 16:28:59 weight-less, with newtonian gravity 16:29:01 you'd fall to the centre, still 16:29:01 MizardX : You would fall at the center. 16:29:19 Although you would oscillate once there 16:29:23 weight-less, with newtonian gravity. i remember this. 16:30:07 it isn't exactly that hard to show, is it. 16:30:25 well i don't remember the exact derivation 16:32:54 umm how's gravity between two points calculated? i know 0 about physics 16:33:10 F = G m1 m2 / r^2 16:33:12 well i could probably just think for a sec and see it 16:33:17 right ofc. 16:34:36 also the gravity from a sphere on the _outside_ is exactly the same as from the equivalent mass at the center of the sphere 16:35:12 s/at/squeezed into a point at/ 16:38:31 * kerlo thinks 16:40:20 i assume both of these things can be shown by integration, but i don't remember if there was any simplifying trick involved. 16:42:34 at least the second had something to do with gauss's theorem, i think 16:43:42 Hmm, density... 16:44:05 Aha! 16:47:07 hm actually i think they both follow from Gauss's theorem 16:48:40 basically, integrating density over the volume inside (that what you are thinking of kerlo?) gives the same result as integrating the normal part of the force at the boundary. simplify this with symmetry. 16:49:11 Just a moment, I almost have an integral here. 16:49:24 (symmetry gives that the force at the boundary _is_ normal, so the normal part is all of it) 16:49:45 I just need to add how to find the horizontal component of a vector of a certain length in a certain direction... 16:49:49 also, the same all over the sphere 16:50:46 x = r cos(theta), theta = arctan(y/x), so x = r cos(arctan(y/x)), aye? 16:51:37 Prove: for all c between -1 and 1, integral from -1 to 1 of cos(arctan(sqrt(1-x^2)/(x-c)))*sqrt(1-x^2)/((1-x^2)+(x-c)^2) = 0. 16:51:58 There's probably a better way to write cos(arctan(y/x))... 16:52:23 ouch 16:52:41 Now I'll stick that whole big thing into a Mathematica integrator. I'm not good at taking integrals without manipulating them symbolically. 16:54:26 http://integrals.wolfram.com/index.jsp?expr=Cos(ArcTan(Sqrt(1-x^2)%2F(x-c)))*Sqrt(1-x^2)%2F((1-x^2)%2B(x-c)^2)&random=false 16:55:17 It's huge. 16:55:52 holy fuck that's pretty :D 16:56:01 That's what I get for assuming that two-dimensional things are simpler than three-dimensional things. 16:56:42 i doubt gravity works the same way in both dimensions 16:56:51 it definitely doesn't work in one dimension 16:56:55 or wait does it 16:57:06 Objection dismissed. :-P 16:57:38 it doesn't, i think it corresponds to having to points and the guy near one of them |_guy______________| 16:58:00 two points one guy 16:58:25 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 16:58:27 i think in two dimensions you want gravitation to go as 1/r rather than 1/r^2 to keep it a conservative force 16:58:27 Okay, prove that the integral for x^2+y^2+z^2 = 1 of 1/((x-a)^2+(y-b)^2+(z-c)^2) = 0 for all a^2+b^2+c^2 < 1. 16:58:57 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 16:59:09 A two-dimensional thing *is* a three-dimensional thing. 16:59:18 It's just one that is contained entirely within a plane. 16:59:31 this is very misleading for gravity 16:59:47 kerlo: i suppose that depends on what you mean by three-dimensional :P 17:00:01 because how many dimensions gravity has to escape in determines how fast it weakens with distance 17:00:33 Gravity still has to escape in three dimensions here. 17:01:06 if you say so 17:01:06 -!- ehird has left (?). 17:01:45 I think you need to divide by r^2 to get the result in the correct units 17:02:18 The only thing two-dimensional about my circle-whose-density-at-a-point-is-proportional-to-that-point's-distance-to-the-diameter is that it's contained entirely within a plane. It's an infinitesimal piece of a three-dimensional sphere. 17:02:30 there is a constant G there, its units could change with a different number of dimensions 17:02:31 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:02:36 -!- ehird has joined. 17:02:39 so it's easy to adapt 17:02:59 reading slereah explain chan culture to anmaster was the highlight of my day 17:03:43 ehird: i think i shall not ponder that idea lest my head explode 17:03:45 * kerlo ponders how to integrate over a set 17:03:51 oerjan: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.01.17 17:03:54 guys why doesnt you email neil degrasse tyson or brian green or michio kaku and ask them these things for certain 17:03:55 ehird : I wanted to show him this : http://astrange.ithinksw.net/shii/view?url=hammer&name=vip.show 17:03:59 -!- join has changed nick to Slereah. 17:04:02 i've already browsed the logs 17:04:07 But bum's got no flash player 17:04:47 ah i guess my head already exploded then 17:05:08 Use a cross section, I guess. 17:05:14 I think I have a bad cold. Might be kind of less active for a few days 17:05:15 -!- ehird has set topic: A secret area of VIP quality. Colon right-parenthesis. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 17:05:18 :/ 17:05:53 there is influenza going around, i assume sweden has it too 17:05:54 you'd think you'd be more active. 17:06:01 05:57:52 woot, Language::Befunge now runs mycology in 18 seconds!! http://jquelin.blogspot.com/2009/01/how-to-shave-10-speed.html 17:06:04 how fast :P 17:06:10 06:18:37 so what's the mycology speed record? 17:06:12 like 0.3ms 17:06:14 but i seem to have escaped it so far 17:06:19 because AnMaster does no thing but optimise cfunge 17:06:28 Okay, let's simplify my fancy integral. 17:06:36 isn't that what diseases do, make you do less, and irc more 17:06:48 Prove: for all c between -1 and 1, integral from -1 to 1 of cos(arctan(sqrt(1-x^2)/(x-c)))/((1-x^2)+(x-c)^2) = 0. 17:06:54 kerlo: i still recommend a gauss's law approach 17:06:56 oerjan, this may or may not be the infulenza 17:06:57 not sure 17:07:04 ~exec self 17:07:08 ~exec sys.stdout(self) 17:07:08 <__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xf7c7e6ec> 17:07:12 ~exec sys.stdout(dir(self)) 17:07:13 ['COMMAND_CHAR', 'THREADING', '__doc__', '__init__', '__module__', 'ban', 'ban_file', 'banlist', 'chan', 'commands_running', 'commands_running_lock', 'connect', 'connected', 'disconnect', 'do_callbacks', 'do_ctcp', 'do_exec', 'do_kill', 'do_ps', 'do_quit', 'do_raw', 'error_in_chan', 'errorchan', 'exec_execer', 'get_message', 'handle_callback', 'host', 'ident', 'listen', 'l 17:07:13 oad_callbacks', 'locals', 'message_re', 'nick', 'owner', 'pong', 'port', 'print_callbacks', 'raw', 'raw_regex_queue', 'read_bans', 'realname', 'register_raw', 'save_callbacks', 'socket', 'sockfile', 'unban', 'verbose', 'write_bans'] 17:07:17 o 17:07:26 ~exec sys.stdout(self.raw_regex_queue) 17:07:26 [(<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0xf7cf2c98>, >), (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80e0ce0>, >), (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80dc828>, >), (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object 17:07:27 at 0x80dc628>, >), (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80dcc98>, >), (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80dd188>, >), (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80b9190>, thod IRCbot.do_ps of <__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xf7c7e6ec>>), (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80dd460>, >), (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80e2cd0>, at 0xf7c7d72c>)] 17:07:28 05:57:52 woot, Language::Befunge now runs mycology in 18 seconds!! http://jquelin.blogspot.com/2009/01/how-to-shave-10-speed.html <-- well it is in perl iirc, not a compiled language? 17:07:38 ~exec self.register_raw 17:07:42 ~exec sys.stdout(dir(self.register_raw)) 17:07:43 ['__call__', '__class__', '__cmp__', '__delattr__', '__doc__', '__get__', '__getattribute__', '__hash__', '__init__', '__new__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__setattr__', '__str__', 'im_class', 'im_func', 'im_self'] 17:07:44 This is *much* simpler: http://integrals.wolfram.com/index.jsp?expr=Cos(ArcTan(Sqrt(1-x^2)%2F(x-c)))%2F((1-x^2)%2B(x-c)^2)&random=false 17:08:24 ~exec self.raw 17:08:31 ~exec sys.stdout(self.raw) 17:08:31 > 17:08:49 ehird 17:08:51 Let us boon 17:08:54 ~exec self.register_raw(r':[^ ]+ TOPIC #esoteric :(.*)', lambda m: self.raw('TOPIC #esoteric :%s | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric' % (m.group(1),)))) 17:08:55 SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing 17:08:57 ~exec self.register_raw(r':[^ ]+ TOPIC #esoteric :(.*)', lambda m: self.raw('TOPIC #esoteric :%s | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric' % (m.group(1),))))) 17:09:01 SyntaxError: invalid syntax 17:09:02 -!- ehird has set topic: a. 17:09:04 dammit 17:09:06 ~exec self.register_raw(r':[^ ]+ TOPIC #esoteric :(.*)', lambda m: self.raw('TOPIC #esoteric :%s | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric' % (m.group(1),)))) 17:09:19 ~exec self.register_raw(r':[^ ]+ TOPIC #esoteric :(.*)', lambda m: self.raw('TOPIC #esoteric :%s | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric' % (m.group(1),)) 17:09:21 SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing 17:09:34 ~exec self.register_raw(r':[^ ]+ TOPIC #esoteric :(.*)', lambda m: self.raw('TOPIC #esoteric :%s | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric' % (m.group(1),))) 17:09:39 SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing 17:09:49 ~exec self.register_raw(r':[^ ]+ TOPIC #esoteric :(.*)', lambda m: self.raw('TOPIC #esoteric :%s | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric' % m.group(1) )) 17:10:00 -!- ehird has set topic: I am green. 17:10:00 NameError: global name 'self' is not defined 17:10:03 Fail 17:10:14 ~exec (lambda this: self.register_raw(r':[^ ]+ TOPIC #esoteric :(.*)', lambda m: this.raw('TOPIC #esoteric :%s | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric' % m.group(1) )))(self) 17:10:15 NameError: global name 'self' is not defined 17:10:20 self = bot usually 17:10:23 ~exec (lambda this: this.register_raw(r':[^ ]+ TOPIC #esoteric :(.*)', lambda m: this.raw('TOPIC #esoteric :%s | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric' % m.group(1) )))(self) 17:10:29 -!- ehird has set topic: aa. 17:10:33 NameError: global name 'self' is not defined 17:10:37 ~exec sys.exit(0) 17:10:43 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Excess Flood). 17:10:46 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 17:10:47 o_O 17:10:55 ~exec (lambda this: this.register_raw(r':[^ ]+ TOPIC #esoteric :(.*)', lambda m: this.raw('TOPIC #esoteric :%s | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric' % m.group(1) )))(self) 17:10:58 oerjan: that seems to contain a surface integral. 17:10:59 ._o 17:11:03 -!- ehird has set topic: I am a big butt and who doesn't care. 17:11:03 AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'group' 17:11:20 ~exec sys.exit(0) 17:11:36 ehird: put logs to topic 17:11:43 right now 17:11:44 kerlo: yes, it comes out to integrating the force around the sphere 17:11:47 oklopol: dude im writing a bot to do that 17:11:48 can't you see 17:11:51 ehird: i know 17:11:59 ~quit 17:12:11 I don't know how to take a surface integral without using cross sections or something similarly silly. 17:12:12 but i'm more interested in local optimization than global 17:12:38 kerlo: no one cares about calculus 17:13:01 kerlo: it's over a sphere, and the value should be constant by symmetry, so just area * constant iirc 17:14:06 Mm. 17:16:05 If you find anything, let me know. 17:16:19 hm anyone here is good at css? 17:16:24 ehird maybe 17:16:26 ? 17:16:29 yes 17:16:33 um i'm not looking 17:17:02 ehird, I'm confused does: h1.foo { ... } and h1 .foo { ... } differ in meaning? 17:17:07 Yes. 17:17:10 aha 17:17:21 h1.foo is a h1 with class foo, h1 .foo is an element with class foo somewhere beneath an h1. 17:17:31 aha 17:17:36 aha 17:17:43 aha 17:17:47 well that explains a lot 17:17:48 thanks ehird 17:18:28 ehird, oh also, foo,.bar and foo, .bar are the same aren't they? 17:18:38 yes 17:18:43 but you should use the latter 17:19:38 ehird, wouldn't a reduced size version be better if bw is an issue, of course the master copy will be kept readable, but the copy on the website would have unneeded spaces removed 17:20:00 The difference will be nelegible unless you're Google. 17:20:22 ehird, about 700 MB / month based on the output from webalizer. 17:20:35 when all unneeded whitespaces are removed 17:20:41 Um, what site is this? 17:20:51 I think that's bullshit unless it's a really huge site. 17:20:52 shared hosting so I can't add mod_compress or such :( 17:20:59 -!- Slereah has set topic: I am a big butt and who doesn't care http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 17:20:59 AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'group' 17:21:07 ehird, supertux website, the mediawiki css files 17:21:29 There's no way you're saving 700MB on the supertux website just by removing whitespace. 17:21:34 ehird, the main css for mediawiki alone generate several GB of traffic per month 17:21:44 ehird, and newlines and uneeded ; before } 17:21:49 Why arey ou using mediawiki? 17:21:56 Don't. 17:22:09 ehird, before I joined the project 17:22:19 And?... 17:22:24 Mediawiki is a huge hog, it's beyond belief 17:22:29 agreed 17:22:36 got any drop in alternative? 17:22:52 No, but I doubt you're using many of the advanced mediawiki features... 17:23:19 varies, some yes, some no. 17:23:30 Try DokuWiki or something. 17:23:37 That's quite fullfeatured but non-hoggy. 17:23:57 The gains will likely be much larger than removing whitespace from a css file... 17:25:04 ~exec bot.raw("QUIT") 17:25:04 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit. 17:25:06 AnMaster: is this an open wiki? 17:25:07 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 17:25:22 oerjan: can't touch this! pythontime. 17:25:35 ehird, yes, some pages are "only devs can edit" though 17:25:50 like the ones with download links for last version and so on 17:25:53 i just wanted to get rid of the broken code 17:25:54 AnMaster: ok, I was thinking making it a static site rendered into a layout with a script but that's obviously not appropriate in this case 17:25:57 oerjan: ah 17:26:15 AnMaster: hmm, idea 17:26:28 ehird, ah static has been rejected except for the front page and a few other pages due to "too much work to update" by several devs 17:26:31 AnMaster: supertux players are tech-savvy right? I mean, they use linux :-P 17:26:42 also, i don't mean hand-writing html 17:26:45 but, anyway 17:26:46 right? 17:26:56 ehird, yes they are, but they prefer to code on the game rather than mess with website 17:27:06 i said players 17:27:12 i'm just thinking 17:27:19 ehird, oh players? no, not really 17:27:22 we get lots of noobs too 17:27:23 mm 17:27:38 -!- Corun has joined. 17:27:43 because you could do a static wiki by having an open git/darcs/hg/etc repository that anyone can push to 17:27:47 and a post-push hook that renders the site 17:27:50 in fact more than average of Ubuntutards and wintards 17:27:53 but, then, users have to use that version system 17:28:00 AnMaster: Windows? Seriously? 17:28:07 ehird, yes... 17:28:29 AnMaster: That... doesn't make too much sense. 17:28:35 Super *tux*. 17:28:41 I agree 17:28:46 and I don't know why 17:29:32 well, if your users are incompetent you'll always have to sacrifice performance for them 17:29:44 that applies to everything :P 17:30:46 AnMaster: but try dokuwiki 17:30:55 it's way less bloated and much less resource intensive 17:31:08 and the html/css it outputs is learner 17:31:15 so that could help a lot 17:31:43 hm will take a look, of course I need to get the other devs (especially the project leader) to agree 17:31:59 Teams suck. 17:32:21 This follows on from the axiom "other people suck". 17:32:22 s/performance for // 17:32:42 oerjan: indeed. 17:33:12 oerjan let's go on a murder spree 17:33:19 so that people die 17:33:25 ehird, yes they have downsides, but also some good points, like how long would it take *one* person to write something like, uh, blender or firefox or whatever, Compared to how long it would take a team 17:33:49 Well, i dislike firefox because it's bloated. :P 17:33:59 I don't have a use for Blender but knowing me I'd probably say the same for it. 17:34:16 Although for collaboration I prefer the linus torvalds model. 17:34:26 It's still one person's projects, but you can send stuff along and he might take it. 17:34:39 s/(project)s/$1/ 17:34:43 ehird, well there are sure other good (but large) software 17:34:46 like the linux kernel 17:35:02 The kernel isn't large for what it does, though. 17:35:14 ehird, also it isn't one persons project if that person isn't around any more, then it works on a team basis suddenly 17:35:20 Sometimes things are complex because they do complex things and it wouldn't be possible to do something much simpler. 17:35:29 AnMaster: and deteriorates. Better would be to pass down the torch. 17:35:39 BDFL doesn't sound "open source"y, but it's practical. 17:35:47 um BDFL? 17:36:12 Benevolent Dictator For Life 17:36:16 ah right 17:36:20 examples: 17:36:28 linus torvalds, guido van rossum, larry wall, ETC 17:36:51 Theo de Radt(sp?) ? 17:37:15 Raadt* 17:37:38 or maybe not a good example ;P 17:37:39 Um, very benevolent :-P 17:37:47 ehird, agreed 17:37:58 Although I agree with him in most cases. 17:38:20 also one downside with open source for games: getting good artists is very very hard. 17:38:41 Also, plot writers. :P 17:38:57 (SuperTux's intro is cringeworthy...) 17:39:08 agreed 17:39:30 however, supertux is jump and run, you don't need that much plot, compared to for example a RPG 17:39:36 Well, it _is_ a carbon copy of Super Mario's plot. 17:39:41 So I guess a lot of the blame lies on Nintendo. :P 17:39:44 ehird, "based on" 17:39:45 ;P 17:39:52 quite. 17:40:30 how _dare_ you force us to steal your crap 17:40:41 * oerjan ducks 17:40:52 groan 17:41:06 wait, there was a pun in there? 17:41:14 no, it was just stupid :D 17:41:23 err 17:41:33 apache mod_deflate doesn't cache the compressed copy? 17:41:49 AnMaster: don't you want to use gzip? 17:42:03 Answer: yes 17:42:08 also, AnMaster 17:42:12 it won't cache dynamic content 17:42:13 duh 17:42:14 ehird, well yes, but what module? 17:42:16 and indeed 17:42:27 also, there's quite a few, iirc mod_gzip is one 17:42:40 AnMaster: you'll need a separate caching module 17:42:41 probably 17:42:53 i guess you can't choose that with a shared host. 17:43:01 why not move it onto something non-shared :P 17:43:03 ehird, shared hosting, I will have to do with what I can do in .htaccess 17:43:17 and it is apache 2.0.x 17:44:25 in fact I'm not certain I can do this from .htaccess at all 17:44:28 * AnMaster experiments 17:45:31 oh maybe mod_gzip is third party? 17:45:42 since I can't find it in apache docs 17:46:27 yes. 17:47:24 * ehird considers writing a lisp. Because what more productive things exist? 17:47:34 Eventful times, these. 17:47:49 eventful? in what way? 17:48:01 In a sarcastic way. 17:48:03 ah 17:48:59 ehird, well that spark wave, I started on it, but it is a bit complex since you need to possibly get a bit of next wave before clearing, so it is currently a quite complex script not yet done 17:49:10 partway done 17:49:22 Surely you just need to tweak the numbers you pass to sparkline... 17:50:08 ehird, not exactly, as you said you need to clear the line to be able to cause the wave effect, that is goto start of line and overwrite it. 17:50:18 AnMaster: Er, i meant clear(1). 17:50:31 But, um, can't you just do that with \r 17:50:35 i.e., carriage return? 17:50:35 ehird, oh I'm using tput to do it 17:51:05 Lisps! Everyone loves those! 17:51:11 kerlo: just do 17:51:14 err 17:51:14 AnMaster: 17:51:16 echo -ne '\r' 17:51:23 and echo -n everything else 17:51:37 ~exec sys.stdout(', '.join([m.__name__ for m in dir(self) if callable(m)])) 17:51:45 * kerlo finds that GHCi is conspicuously absent on this computer 17:51:54 hm? 17:51:57 hm 17:52:48 ~exec sys.stdout(', '.join([getattr(self,m).__name__ for m in dir(self) if callable(getattr(self,m))])) 17:52:48 __init__, ban, connect, disconnect, do_callbacks, do_ctcp, do_exec, do_kill, do_ps, do_quit, do_raw, exec_execer, get_message, handle_callback, listen, load_callbacks, pong, print_callbacks, raw, read_bans, register_raw, save_callbacks, unban, write_bans 18:04:07 r5rs is a wonderful language 18:04:19 ah almost working 18:07:25 how can the committee that authored R5RS produce something as awful as r6rs 18:12:51 UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode characters in position 0-19: ordinal not in range(128) 18:12:52 huh? 18:13:22 AnMaster: Use unicode strings. 18:13:28 You're trying to do unicode stuff with normal stirngs. 18:13:30 don't. 18:13:40 ehird, well sparkline said that 18:13:51 AnMaster: what data are you passing it? 18:14:08 ehird, I believe it may have received a terminal control code by mistake 18:14:16 That is probably it. 18:14:39 assuming "trap 'tput cvvis; exit' INT TERM" while inside a piped function cause things to go to the pipe 18:14:45 instead of real stdout 18:14:53 Almost certainly. 18:15:09 ehird, anyway here it is: 18:15:12 http://rafb.net/p/oVd5cO49.html 18:15:15 not perfect 18:15:17 bbiab 18:15:51 By AnMater 18:16:14 | python ~/irc/sparkline 18:16:17 Or, you know, | sparkline 18:16:21 :P 18:16:54 AnMaster: It kind of works... but, I'm sure you could base waves on that for i in 1 2 3 thing you did yesterday 18:17:00 I think that could work better 18:18:57 ehird, except it wasn't chmod +x and not in path 18:19:05 Should be >:D 18:19:18 people don't give ~/bin enough luv 18:19:19 ehird, also yes it was a quick hack 18:19:27 yeah, it stutters at one point 18:19:36 well I have around 10 scripts in ~/bin 18:19:37 AlmaMater 18:19:41 ehird, it stutters? 18:19:43 doesn't here 18:19:44 huh 18:19:51 oh wait 18:19:52 AnMaster: as in 18:19:53 right 18:19:55 it makse a jerky movement 18:20:03 yes a mis calculation I believe 18:20:30 * AnMaster fixes 18:20:34 "If Jobs had realized the margins behind selling software and ported MacOS to Intel" 18:20:40 Umm, who wants to tell him? 18:21:01 (For the idiots: 1. Steve Jobs is not a programmer 2. OS X _does_ run on Intel...) 18:21:08 indeed 18:21:42 ehird, funny thing: 18:21:48 change the off=$(( line 18:21:48 to 18:21:50 off=$(( (off + 1) % 20 )) 18:21:53 it is fun to watch 18:21:57 though hardly correct 18:22:02 haha 18:22:13 AnMaster: you coulds imulate game of life with this. 18:22:14 O_O 18:22:15 * AnMaster was trying to fix the jerk 18:22:23 Fixing jerks is difficult 18:22:29 "imulate"? 18:22:53 coulds imulate 18:22:55 could simulate 18:22:58 ah 18:23:39 ~exec sys.stdout(sys.version) 18:23:40 2.4.3 (#1, Oct 25 2006, 21:45:16) 18:23:40 [GCC 4.1.1 (Gentoo 4.1.1)] 18:23:53 ~exec sys.stdout(callable(sys.stdout)) 18:23:53 True 18:23:56 ... 18:23:57 Gentoo? 18:24:03 Ohh 18:24:07 bsmnt_bot is in a chroot 18:24:10 Presumably built on gentoo 18:24:12 by bsmnt_bot 18:24:13 err 18:24:14 by bsmntbombdood 18:24:15 right 18:24:33 It actually runs on ewwbuntu :D 18:24:40 Buns too 18:24:47 Eww, buns too. 18:24:53 Delicious buns 18:25:09 ~exec self.print_callbacks(sys.stdout) 18:25:09 [('^PING (.*)$', 'pong'), 18:25:09 ('^:bsmntbombdood!\\S*gavin@\\S* PRIVMSG \\S* :~quit ?(.*)', 'do_quit'), 18:25:09 ('^:bsmntbombdood!\\S*gavin@\\S* PRIVMSG \\S* :~raw (.*)', 'do_raw'), 18:25:10 ('^\\S+ PRIVMSG \\S+ :~ctcp (\\S+) (.+)', 'do_ctcp'), 18:25:11 ('^:bsmntbombdood!\\S*gavin@\\S* PRIVMSG (\\S*) :~pexec (.*)', 'do_exec'), 18:25:12 ('\\S+ PRIVMSG (#esoteric|#baadf00d|#esoteric-blah|#bsmnt_bot_errors) :~exec (.*)', 18:25:12 eww, bunnies 18:25:13 'do_exec'), 18:25:14 ('\\S+ PRIVMSG \\S+ :~ps', 'do_ps'), 18:25:15 Dammit MizardX 18:25:16 ('^\\S+ PRIVMSG (#esoteric|#baadf00d|#esoteric-blah|#bsmnt_bot_errors) :~kill (.*)', 18:25:18 'do_kill'), 18:25:20 ('^ERROR :Closing Link:.*', '')] 18:25:20 BAD BOY. 18:25:26 :P 18:26:24 ~exec sys.stdout(', '.join([getattr(self,m).__name__ for m in dir(self) if isinstance(getattr(self,m),list)])) 18:26:24 AttributeError: 'list' object has no attribute '__name__' 18:26:34 ~exec sys.stdout(', '.join([m for m in dir(self) if isinstance(getattr(self,m),list)])) 18:26:35 banlist, chan, commands_running, raw_regex_queue 18:26:40 MizardX: you know, 18:26:45 you can just get it to post its code to a pastebin 18:27:00 how do you listdir in python again? 18:27:03 os.path.listdir? 18:27:08 os.listdir 18:27:19 ~exec import os; sys.stdout(os.listdir('.')) 18:27:19 ['bin', 'bot', 'etc', 'lib', 'usr'] 18:27:26 yes, it lives in /bot 18:27:29 XD 18:27:31 ~exec import os; sys.stdout(os.listdir('bot')) 18:27:31 ['files.img', 'a.out', 'scripts', 'betterbot.py', 'test.pickle', 'foo.py~', 'ski_repl.py', 'foo.py', 'ircbot.py~', 'start.sh', 'better.sh', 'start.sh~', 'ircbot.py', 'keep_running'] 18:27:38 It _isn't_ betterbot. 18:27:51 It's ircbot.py. 18:28:04 Now to figure out how to make a paste to a pastebin 18:28:07 ~exec import __main__; sys.stdout(__main__.__file__) 18:28:07 /bot/ircbot.py 18:28:11 aha 18:28:25 Hmm, dpaste has a restful paste API. 18:28:26 I'll go with that. 18:28:39 ~exec sys.stdout(__import__('urllib2')) 18:28:41 18:28:45 Kick. Ass. 18:28:51 ~exec import urllib2 18:28:57 * ehird waits for dpaste docs to load 18:29:01 found it I think 18:29:32 ~exec a=3 18:29:34 ~exec a 18:29:34 NameError: name 'a' is not defined 18:29:45 MizardX: try assigning to bot 18:29:53 ~exec bot.a=3 18:29:54 ~exec bot.a 18:30:09 ~exec self.a=3 18:30:12 ~exec self.a 18:30:18 sys.stdout 18:30:19 ~exec sys.stdout(self.a) 18:30:19 3 18:30:19 dummy 18:30:27 >_> 18:30:28 ~exec bot._vars = {}; bot.assign = lambda self, k, v: self._vars.__setitem__(k,v); bot.get = lambda self, k: self._vars.__getitem__(k) 18:30:34 ~exec assign('a',2) 18:30:34 NameError: name 'assign' is not defined 18:30:37 oops 18:30:39 ~exec bot.assign('a',2) 18:30:39 TypeError: () takes exactly 3 arguments (2 given) 18:30:50 ~exec bot._vars = {}; bot.assign = lambda k, v: bot._vars.__setitem__(k,v); bot.get = lambda k: bot._vars.__getitem__(k) 18:30:52 ~exec bot.assign('a',2) 18:30:57 ~exec sys.stdout(bot.get('a')) 18:30:57 2 18:31:00 Tada 18:31:26 ~exec open('ircbot.py').read()[:15] 18:31:27 IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'ircbot.py' 18:31:31 ~exec open('/bot/ircbot.py').read()[:15] 18:31:39 ~exec coed=open('/bot/ircbot.py').read() 18:31:46 ~exec self.assign('koed',open('/bot/ircbot.py').read()) 18:31:53 ~exec sys.stdout(bot.get('koed')) 18:31:54 #! /usr/bin/python 18:31:54 import socket 18:31:54 import re 18:31:54 import sys 18:31:55 import traceback 18:31:56 import thread 18:31:57 FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU 18:31:57 import pprint 18:31:59 import inspect 18:31:59 :P 18:32:01 import time 18:32:03 import os 18:32:05 import threading 18:32:07 import copy 18:32:08 ~exec bot.raw('QUIT') 18:32:09 import pickle 18:32:11 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit. 18:32:13 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 18:32:14 ~exec self.assign('koed',open('/bot/ircbot.py').read()) 18:32:15 AttributeError: IRCbot instance has no attribute 'assign' 18:32:19 FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU 18:32:30 ~exec sys.stdout(open('/bot/ircbot.py').read()[:15]) 18:32:31 #! /usr/bin/pyt 18:32:43 Good. Okay. 18:32:46 ~exec sys.stdout(len(bot.get('koed'))) 18:32:46 AttributeError: IRCbot instance has no attribute 'get' 18:33:00 no persistence, its broken 18:33:13 ~exec sys.stdout(repr(bot)) 18:33:14 <__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xf7caa6ec> 18:33:20 ~exec sys.stdout(repr(self)) 18:33:20 <__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xf7caa6ec> 18:33:36 ok, think ive realised how to paste it 18:33:37 :DD 18:35:44 ~exec sys.stdout(re) 18:35:44 18:35:47 ehird, http://rafb.net/p/554io037.html 18:35:57 ~exec import urllib2; sys.stdout(urllib2.urlopen('http://dpaste.com/api/v1/', 'content=%s&language=Python&hold=1' % open('/bot/ircbot.py').read()).info()['Location']) 18:35:58 URLError: 18:36:08 AnMaster: AnMater 18:36:11 yes? 18:36:12 shit, it can't do networking 18:36:12 whatn ow 18:36:14 crazy code yes 18:36:16 AnMaster: AnMater 18:36:22 . 18:36:23 By AnMater 18:36:28 # By AnMater 18:36:30 ah 18:36:31 typo 18:36:31 2 # By AnMater 18:36:38 istr there was no dns when last we were fooling around with it 18:36:48 well, that makes sense 18:36:51 * ehird looks up dpaste.com 18:36:55 ehird, http://rafb.net/p/YW5JPt53.html 18:37:05 ~exec import urllib2; sys.stdout(urllib2.urlopen('http://69.55.225.29/api/v1/', 'content=%s&language=Python&hold=1' % open('/bot/ircbot.py').read()).info()['Location']) 18:37:06 HTTPError: HTTP Error 404: Not Found 18:37:15 oh, we need a host header 18:37:41 ehird, well does the script work for you? 18:37:48 AnMaster: will try in a bit 18:37:52 after fixing sparkline path 18:37:53 of course 18:38:39 -!- Judofyr has joined. 18:38:51 ~exec import urllib2; sys.stdout(urllib2.open(urllib2.Request('http://69.55.225.29/api/v1/', 'content=%s&language=Python&hold=1' % open('/bot/ircbot.py').read(), {'Host': 'dpaste.com'})).info()['Location']) 18:38:51 AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'open' 18:38:58 ~exec import urllib2; sys.stdout(urllib2.urlopen(urllib2.Request('http://69.55.225.29/api/v1/', 'content=%s&language=Python&hold=1' % open('/bot/ircbot.py').read(), {'Host': 'dpaste.com'})).info()['Location']) 18:38:59 URLError: 18:39:06 ;_____________________________________; 18:39:12 i suppose there must be something you could put in the chroot to _get_ dns? 18:39:20 nah, im doing without dns :DD 18:39:22 ~exec import urllib2; sys.stdout(urllib2.urlopen(urllib2.Request('http://69.55.225.29/api/v1/', 'content=%s&language=Python&hold=1' % open('/bot/ircbot.py').read(), {'Host': 'dpaste.com'})).info()['Location']) 18:39:32 URLError: 18:40:29 Hm. 18:40:36 ~exec import urllib2; sys.stdout(urllib2.urlopen(urllib2.Request('http://69.55.225.29/api/v1/', 'content=%s&language=Python&hold=1' % open('/bot/ircbot.py').read(), {})).info()['Location']) 18:40:46 HTTPError: HTTP Error 404: Not Found 18:40:49 MizardX: wtf?! 18:40:58 Is urllib doing some sort of dns lookup when its given Host? 18:41:21 that was my question too 18:42:01 meh, ill just use sockets 18:43:02 hm ~exec exec perl? 18:43:06 python. 18:43:06 j/k 18:43:16 ehird, yes should replace it with perl 18:43:18 ;) 18:43:32 at least perl has a proper sandbox, the "safe" thing 18:43:43 LOL 18:43:48 that's not suitable for actually sandboxing 18:43:52 well true 18:44:07 there are probably ways to break out of it 18:44:17 no, it just makes the interpreter totally useless. 18:44:21 ah 18:44:28 ▅▄▃▃▂▁▁▁▂▃▃▄▅▅▆▇█▇▆▅ 18:44:32 one thing I notice 18:44:40 two of the bars are the same height 18:44:50 so what values should one pass to avoid that 18:44:59 as of course you can't change how unicode works 18:45:13 ~exec import urllib2; sys.stdout(urllib2.open('http://whatismyipaddress.com/').read()[:15]) 18:45:13 AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'open' 18:45:24 ~exec import urllib2; sys.stdout(urllib2.urlopen('http://whatismyipaddress.com/').read()[:15]) 18:45:24 URLError: 18:45:26 MizardX: ping eso-std.org 18:45:42 ~exec import socket; import urllib; encoded=urllib.urlencode(open('/bot/ircbot.py').read()); s=socket.socket();s.connect(('69.55.225.29',80)); s.sendall('GET /api/v1/\r\nHost: dpaste.com\r\nContent-Length: %i\r\n\r\n' % (31+len(encoded)); s.sendall('content=%s&language=Python&hold=1\r\n' % encoded); while True: sys.stdout(s.recv(1024)) 18:45:46 SyntaxError: invalid syntax 18:45:47 cmon work work work 18:45:49 FUCK YOU 18:45:50 :( 18:45:55 ~exec import socket; import urllib; encoded=urllib.urlencode(open('/bot/ircbot.py').read()); s=socket.socket();s.connect(('69.55.225.29',80)); s.sendall('GET /api/v1/\r\nHost: dpaste.com\r\nContent-Length: %i\r\n\r\n' % (31+len(encoded))); s.sendall('content=%s&language=Python&hold=1\r\n' % encoded); while True: sys.stdout(s.recv(1024)) 18:45:58 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Excess Flood). 18:46:00 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 18:46:09 O_o 18:46:37 ~exec import time; import socket; import urllib; encoded=urllib.urlencode(open('/bot/ircbot.py').read()); s=socket.socket();s.connect(('69.55.225.29',80)); s.sendall('GET /api/v1/\r\nHost: dpaste.com\r\nContent-Length: %i\r\n\r\n' % (31+len(encoded))); s.sendall('content=%s&language=Python&hold=1\r\n' % encoded); foo = lambda: (sys.stdout(s.recv(1024)), time.sleep(5)) while True: foo() 18:46:38 wtf 18:46:38 SyntaxError: invalid syntax 18:46:40 ~exec import time; import socket; import urllib; encoded=urllib.urlencode(open('/bot/ircbot.py').read()); s=socket.socket();s.connect(('69.55.225.29',80)); s.sendall('GET /api/v1/\r\nHost: dpaste.com\r\nContent-Length: %i\r\n\r\n' % (31+len(encoded))); s.sendall('content=%s&language=Python&hold=1\r\n' % encoded); foo = lambda: (sys.stdout(s.recv(1024)), time.sleep(5)); while True: foo() 18:46:43 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Excess Flood). 18:46:44 ehird, no 18:46:45 don't 18:46:46 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 18:46:50 AnMaster: don't what 18:46:53 do you even know what I'm doing? 18:46:57 why do you want it to flood off? 18:47:00 ... 18:47:02 I don't. 18:47:05 oh 18:47:23 ~exec import time; import socket; import urllib; encoded=urllib.urlencode(open('/bot/ircbot.py').read()); sys.stdout(31+len(encoded)); s=socket.socket();s.connect(('69.55.225.29',80)); s.sendall('GET /api/v1/\r\nHost: dpaste.com\r\nContent-Length: %i\r\n\r\n' % (31+len(encoded))); s.sendall('content=%s&language=Python&hold=1\r\n' % encoded); foo = lambda: (sys.stdout(s.recv(1024)), time.sleep(5)); while True: foo() 18:47:24 SyntaxError: invalid syntax 18:47:30 ehird, also about putting in chroot for dns 18:47:32 that is easy 18:47:39 /etc/resolv.conf 18:47:39 AnMaster: I said I didn't want to. 18:47:42 This means I don't want to. 18:47:49 ehird, ah ok 18:47:51 missed that 18:48:04 * AnMaster looks in scrollback 18:48:19 ah I see 18:48:38 ~exec import time; import socket; import urllib; encoded=urllib.urlencode(open('/bot/ircbot.py').read()); sys.stdout(31+len(encoded)); s=socket.socket();s.connect(('69.55.225.29',80)); s.sendall('GET /api/v1/\r\nHost: dpaste.com\r\nContent-Length: %i\r\n\r\n' % (31+len(encoded))); s.sendall('content=%s&language=Python&hold=1\r\n' % encoded); foo = (lambda: (sys.stdout(s.recv(1024)), time.sleep(5))); while True: foo() 18:48:38 SyntaxError: invalid syntax 18:48:43 /j #bsmnt_bot_errors 18:48:51 ~exec import time; import socket; import urllib; encoded=urllib.urlencode(open('/bot/ircbot.py').read()); sys.stdout(31+len(encoded)); s=socket.socket();s.connect(('69.55.225.29',80)); s.sendall('GET /api/v1/\r\nHost: dpaste.com\r\nContent-Length: %i\r\n\r\n' % (31+len(encoded))); s.sendall('content=%s&language=Python&hold=1\r\n' % encoded); foo = (lambda: (sys.stdout(s.recv(1024)), time.sleep(5))); while True: foo() 18:48:55 SyntaxError: invalid syntax 18:49:08 fail 18:49:12 it pinpoints the error to... the line 18:49:12 :D 18:49:31 ehird, heh 18:49:43 ehird, run it locally once to check? 18:49:45 ~exec import time; import socket; import urllib; encoded=urllib.urlencode(open('/bot/ircbot.py').read()); sys.stdout(31+len(encoded)); s=socket.socket();s.connect(('69.55.225.29',80)); s.sendall('GET /api/v1/\r\nHost: dpaste.com\r\nContent-Length: %i\r\n\r\n' % (31+len(encoded))); s.sendall('content=%s&language=Python&hold=1\r\n' % encoded); foo = (lambda: (sys.stdout(s.recv(1024)), time.sleep(5), foo()));foo() 18:49:45 TypeError: not a valid non-string sequence or mapping object 18:51:27 MizardX: w t f 18:51:51 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 18:52:23 ehird, hm are there such unicode chars except the other way around? like, their base is attached to the top of the char, not the bottom 18:52:41 Um... Those are blocks. 18:52:52 They don't have bases. 18:53:01 um 18:53:03 ▄ 18:53:06 what about the same 18:53:07 Oh. 18:53:10 but from the top of the char block 18:53:12 I don't think so. 18:53:14 if you see what I mean 18:53:18 flipped vertically 18:53:21 ehird, ah ok 18:53:23 well then 18:53:29 * AnMaster messes with inverted video 18:53:50 what are you doing 18:54:00 I will tell when it works 18:57:05 ~exec import pydoc; sys.stdout(pydoc.getdoc(self.do_raw)) 18:57:17 MizardX: itt: .__doc__ 18:57:21 yay 18:57:34 does not give signature 18:57:46 ~exec help(self.do_raw) 18:57:56 ehird, http://rafb.net/p/tSfBXg37.html 18:57:57 :D 18:58:12 ehird, I can't show this on irc I'm afraid 18:58:14 ~exec self.do_raw.__doc__ 18:58:23 ~exec sys.stdout(self.do_raw.__doc__) 18:58:24 None 18:58:25 ehird, also rounding issues make it non-perfect 18:58:28 * AnMaster tries with 8 18:58:40 -!- M0ny has joined. 18:58:41 ~exec import pydoc; sys.stdout(pydoc) 18:58:42 18:58:51 ~exec import pydoc; sys.stdout(pydoc.getdoc('foo')) 18:58:52 str(object) -> string 18:58:52 Return a nice string representation of the object. 18:58:52 If the argument is a string, the return value is the same object. 18:58:59 Traceback (most recent call last): 18:58:59 File "/Users/ehird/bin/sparkline", line 21, in 18:59:00 Traceback (most recent call last): 18:59:03 File "/Users/ehird/bin/sparkline", line 21, in 18:59:05 numbers = map(float, input) 18:59:07 ValueError: invalid literal for float(): {9..0} 18:59:09 ^CTraceback (most recent call last): 18:59:11 File "/Users/ehird/bin/sparkline", line 21, in 18:59:13 numbers = map(float, input) 18:59:15 ValueError: invalid literal for float(): {9..0} 18:59:16 wtf 18:59:17 Fail 18:59:20 ehird, err 18:59:22 not using bash? 18:59:28 GNU bash, version 2.05b.0(1)-release (powerpc-apple-darwin8.0) 18:59:28 Copyright (C) 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc. 18:59:29 "#!/usr/bin/env bash" 18:59:32 ehird, too old 18:59:36 bash 3 or later 18:59:46 Let me know when it works with something other than bash 3 18:59:47 well I could rewrite it with seq instead 18:59:53 just didn't know you didn't have a modern bash 18:59:59 seems to work with zsh. 18:59:59 ~exec self.do_raw() 19:00:00 TypeError: do_raw() takes exactly 3 arguments (1 given) 19:00:07 AnMaster: it just flashes the bottom layer... 19:00:11 oh 19:00:14 * ehird widens screen 19:00:15 Awesome. 19:00:35 ehird, you have a more modern bash then? 19:00:39 MizardX: join #bsmnt_bot_errors 19:00:40 for tracebacks 19:00:43 AnMaster: works with zsh. 19:01:02 ehird, oh I see 19:01:13 ehird, anyway the bars doesn't match up perfectly 19:01:18 sadly 19:01:19 Does for me 19:01:28 I'll dcc you a screenshot 19:01:54 Huh, dcc is grayed out 19:02:17 ▄▃▃▂▁▁▁▂▃▃▄▅▅▆▇█▇▆▅▅▄▃▃▂▁▁▁▂▃▃▄▅▅▆▇█▇▆▅▅▄▃▃▂▁▁▁▂▃▃▄▅▅▆▇█▇▆▅▅ 19:02:17 ▃▄▅▅▆▇█▇▆▅▅▄▃▃▂▁▁▁▂▃▃▄▅▅▆▇█▇▆▅▅▄▃▃▂▁▁▁▂▃▃▄▅▅▆▇█▇▆▅▅▄▃▃▂▁▁▁▂▃ 19:02:28 and? 19:02:30 where the lower one is inverted 19:02:35 looks like that to me 19:02:40 ehird, the top doesn't perfectly match the bottom 19:02:48 o_O 19:02:56 as in, they aren't centered 19:02:59 relative each other 19:03:01 correctly 19:03:16 I believe this is due to rounding errors 19:03:36 -!- puzzlet has quit (Connection timed out). 19:03:42 They match up perfectly for me 19:03:54 ehird, see above they didn't for me 19:04:03 ok they do in zsh 19:04:05 What is the issue? 19:04:10 wait, zsh has floating point right? 19:04:11 aha 19:04:14 Ah. 19:04:16 Yes. 19:04:18 bash only has integer math 19:04:24 so rounding issue 19:04:30 AnMaster: sparkline(1) handles floats, FWIW 19:04:42 (Obviously, since squish(1) outputs floats) 19:04:48 ehird, well yes, but bash doesn't in the offset bit (see variable hl) 19:05:16 huh 19:05:21 hl is 30 on both 19:06:02 ▅▅▆▇█▇▆▅▅▄▃▃▂▁▁▁▂▃▃▄▅▅▆▇█▇▆▅▅▄▃▃▂▁▁▁▂▃▃▄▅▅▆▇█▇▆▅▅▄▃▃▂▁▁▁▂▃▃▄ 19:06:03 ▃▂▁▁▁▂▃▃▄▅▅▆▇█▇▆▅▅▄▃▃▂▁▁▁▂▃▃▄▅▅▆▇█▇▆▅▅▄▃▃▂▁▁▁▂▃▃▄▅▅▆▇█▇▆▅▅▄▁ 19:06:20 that isn't perfect match up 19:06:28 well in bash you can get perfect with: 19:06:30 cycle_idx $(( off + hl + 1 )) | python ~/irc/sparkline 19:06:38 adding the + 1 there 19:06:49 then it is off by 1 in zsh :D 19:07:02 zsh is superior anyway. 19:07:17 wait what.... 19:07:28 non-reproducible success 19:07:30 -_- 19:08:26 ehird, wait I see.. the real issue is that screen is somehow always updated between the two sparkline calls 19:08:30 meaning they are out of sync 19:08:35 Ah. 19:08:50 AnMaster: it'll be the inversion setting 19:08:50 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:08:53 causing a reprint 19:08:53 so this probably depends on terminal 19:09:02 ehird, well I don't know... 19:09:27 actually it sometimes jumps and is updated correctly instead 19:09:30 huh 19:09:30 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Excess Flood). 19:09:32 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 19:09:42 >_> 19:09:52 hm this could be due to screen refresh rate *adds sleep calls* 19:10:57 wtf 19:11:04 sometimes the lower line stalls for a bit 19:11:09 like half a second 19:11:12 while the upper one updates 19:11:24 ehird, does that make any sense? 19:11:33 Not for me. 19:11:37 Maybe your machine sucks ;-) 19:12:12 ehird, only happens with zsh for me 19:12:20 shrug 19:12:23 zsh is slow 19:12:30 bash too 19:12:36 * AnMaster rewrites in ksh syntax 19:13:09 ehird, oh and ksh accepts {} 19:13:14 it doesn't accept "local" however 19:13:19 ksh is terrible :P 19:14:51 bsmnt_bot code: http://dpaste.com/hold/110147/ 19:14:52 (MizardX) 19:15:04 Loads a bit slow :\ 19:15:36 -!- Mony has quit (Connection timed out). 19:16:03 Fuck it 19:16:04 ill pastie it 19:16:30 oh 19:16:31 works now, heh. 19:16:33 MizardX: 19:17:52 ehird, you did all that just to get the bot's code? 19:18:00 No. 19:18:04 I just copied it manually from the chroot. 19:18:09 ah 19:20:42 unicode needs slimmer blocks 19:20:46 sparklines are meant to be tiny 19:24:06 ehird, cleaned up version that runs under ksh, bash3 and zsh http://rafb.net/p/LVefnN13.html 19:24:21 python -O? 19:24:23 No. 19:24:31 Wasteful & pointless... 19:24:36 Won't even gain you anything in this case. 19:24:38 ehird, yes I put it there to test, didn't make any difference 19:24:42 :P 19:24:51 ehird, when does -O help? 19:24:57 I've never used it. 19:25:02 I don't think anyone does. 19:25:21 well looking at various python programs it seems quite common in the shebang line 19:25:30 I've never seen it. 19:25:37 when it is *supposed* to help? 19:26:00 I don't know. I think it's basically unmaintained. 19:26:49 it's supposed to make you realize you're not a python programmer at heart, just prints "OptionError: not a chance" 19:26:51 ehird, lots of files in python's own lib dir are *.pyo 19:26:59 as well as *.pyc 19:27:13 AnMaster: You use Gentoo. 19:27:20 ehird, same on freebsd 19:27:28 I don't know. 19:27:52 ehird, what about your /usr/local/lib/python2.5/ /usr/lib/python2.5/ or whatever 19:27:56 Hmm. I wonder if I could get a scheme implementation something like 2-3x slower than C. 19:27:58 any *.pyc? any *.pyo? 19:28:43 Lots of both, interestingly/ 19:28:46 Shrug 19:28:51 k 19:28:58 same here indeed 19:30:32 * ehird calls his scheme something unappealing, like fatpig 19:32:32 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 19:36:11 floating point: when sin(pi) != 0 19:36:18 > math:sin(math:pi()). 19:36:19 1.2246467991473532e-16 19:36:20 --- 19:36:22 -_-* 19:36:45 Syntax highlighting is irritating. I move we outlaw syntax highlighting. 19:37:01 ehird, I like basic syntax highlight 19:37:08 also I vote we outlaw it for whitespace 19:37:12 but only for whitespace 19:37:25 Syntax highlighting is kind of useless for scheme, since near everything is redefinable. 19:37:39 All you can do is dim the parentheses, and maybe bold one or two things like "define", "let" and "lambda". 19:38:20 -!- ehird has set topic: a. 19:38:23 Fail 19:38:48 ehird, matching () in matching colors help 19:38:54 AnMaster: no 19:39:00 parentheses matching is hideous 19:39:10 why do you think that? 19:39:10 Lisp coders read the indentational structure, not the parentheses. 19:39:21 Thus why most of them set parentheses to a light gray, to avoid eyestrain and concentrate on the actual code. 19:39:40 However, a mode like paredit, which does semi-structural editing on s-expressions: yes please. 19:39:48 hm 19:39:59 ehird, paredit? 19:40:08 http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit.el 19:40:24 Explanation & documentation is in the starting comments. 19:40:30 AnMaster: Overview: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ParEdit 19:40:50 * AnMaster loads it in w3m mode 19:44:32 -!- MizardX has set topic: b. 19:44:33 TOPIC #esoteric :b | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ 19:44:50 eh 19:44:54 interesting 19:44:58 -!- ehird has set topic: fail. 19:44:58 TOPIC #esoteric :fail | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ 19:45:11 -!- AnMaster has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 19:45:12 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 19:45:13 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 19:45:17 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 19:45:17 wtf 19:45:20 fail too 19:45:21 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 19:45:25 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 19:45:29 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 19:45:32 ... 19:45:32 ow 19:45:34 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 19:45:38 ehird, fix 19:45:39 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~ne. 19:45:40 ~exec bot.raw('QUIT') 19:45:41 AnMaster: not my code 19:45:42 stfu 19:45:44 it's MizardX 19:45:50 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit. 19:45:52 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 19:46:06 -!- AnMaster has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | WE LOVE OUR LOGS. 19:46:19 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef. 19:46:37 why? :( 19:46:48 as many logs as possible 19:46:49 wait no 19:46:58 the last one doesn't fit 19:46:59 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~. 19:47:08 -!- ehird has set topic: Let's try this. 19:47:08 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: Let's try this | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 19:47:12 Win 19:47:13 :D 19:47:20 -!- AnMaster has set topic: Let's try this | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | And this. 19:47:22 MizardX: now make the command registers persist! 19:47:25 -!- AnMaster has set topic: Let's try this | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esotseric/ | And this. 19:47:29 hm? 19:47:31 fail? 19:47:32 -!- ehird has set topic: I like big butts and I cannot lie. 19:47:33 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: I like big butts and I cannot lie | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 19:47:53 -!- AnMaster has set topic: But why does it fail | if there is more than one section. 19:47:57 it doesn't 19:48:03 it just did? 19:48:05 no 19:48:15 so why didn't it add the logs? 19:48:17 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Client Quit). 19:48:19 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 19:48:32 -!- ehird has set topic: I like big butts and I cannot die. 19:48:36 Phail 19:48:39 ~exec bot.raw('QUIT') 19:48:39 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Client Quit). 19:48:42 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 19:48:47 -!- AnMaster has set topic. 19:50:35 -!- AnMaster has set topic: .. 19:50:41 holy fucking fuck. i'm starting to think continuous brainfuck is not entirely possible to do. 19:50:45 -!- AnMaster has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 19:50:49 stop it AnMaster 19:50:51 we are debugging :| 19:50:54 oklopol, continuous brainfuck? 19:50:55 ehird, ok 19:50:57 oklopol: The name is "contfuck". 19:51:03 ehird: well yes 19:51:13 i just keep using the wrong name for some reason 19:51:19 Also, you still have to fit a u in there to perfect it. 19:51:21 * AnMaster looks 19:51:47 it isn't on the wiki? 19:51:51 so what is contfuck 19:51:57 oklopol's language. 19:52:00 no i can't get the semantics figured out really. 19:52:11 well. actually the semantics are pretty simple 19:52:16 but i can't find a way to implement it 19:52:25 oklopol, spec? 19:52:41 AnMaster: OKLOPOL LANGUAGES DO NOT HAVE A SPEC 19:52:41 AnMaster: my languages rarely have specs. 19:52:43 You've been here months 19:52:46 get it in your head already 19:52:46 i'm not that structured. 19:52:48 oklopol, ok 19:52:57 so tell me what is special about the language 19:53:02 how does it differ from bf? 19:53:09 +++++{--->++<} 19:53:16 and cell 2 would be 10/3 19:53:39 {...} starts a block where inc's and dec's are infinitely smaller than values on the outside 19:53:42 oklopol, continuations? 19:53:48 19:53 oklopol, continuations? 19:53:50 What 19:53:50 Did 19:53:51 ah no 19:53:52 The 19:53:54 Example 19:53:54 numbers are represented as an infinite list of bignums 19:53:56 He 19:53:58 ehird, lag 19:53:58 Showed 19:54:00 Have 19:54:02 To 19:54:03 +++++{--->++<} 19:54:04 Do 19:54:04 oklopol, continuations? 19:54:06 With 19:54:06 and cell 2 would be 10/3 19:54:08 Continuatoins 19:54:10 o 19:54:12 AnMaster: your network connection sux 19:54:16 ehird, yes it does 19:54:19 huge lag spikes atm 19:54:20 :D 19:54:27 ehird, all ISPs sucks 19:54:31 except xs4all 19:54:42 where the ith bignum is kinda a "differential" of all bignums before index i, and {...} step one deeper in this infinite list of nested differentials 19:54:49 Yeah, I only hear good things about xs4all. 19:55:08 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 19:55:13 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 19:55:21 New plan: Move to the Netherlands, perform hostile takeover of XS4ALL, ???, world domination 19:55:34 AnMaster: and no has nothing to do with continuations, but continuity 19:55:57 right 19:56:05 oh actually, the cells aren't bignums, they are rationals 19:56:16 or maybe general reals, but i hope that isn't needed... 19:56:17 bf with continuations would be cool though 19:56:24 itt: jumpfuck 19:56:29 maybe, but much less innovative 19:56:36 aha 19:56:44 continuations are so retro 19:56:53 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:57:05 I made bf+continuations in july 2007 19:57:08 http://esolangs.org/wiki/JumpFuck 19:57:15 weird, it got implemented 19:57:22 so did you know you can make a turing machine with affine transformations 19:58:04 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 19:58:25 the turku university is like #esoteric^2, the prof i talked to knows tons more about esolanging than i do, i mean, the mathematical aspects of it 19:59:14 also he's encoded turing machines in tiling infinite planes afaiu 19:59:21 oklopol: Get him in here 19:59:22 * oklopol wants summa dat 20:00:03 i'm not sure he'd be at home here 20:00:15 much older than oerjan (i think) 20:00:23 (i can't really assess that, just assume) 20:00:29 meh, we can just create #esoteric-sans-gay-sex 20:00:54 No one is here, ehird 20:01:04 I guess it's not really esoteric without gay sex 20:03:14 o 20:03:15 o 20:03:15 o 20:03:15 o 20:03:15 o 20:03:16 o 20:03:18 o 20:03:20 o 20:03:28 o 20:03:28 o 20:03:30 o 20:03:32 o 20:03:34 o 20:03:36 o 20:03:38 o 20:03:40 o 20:03:42 o 20:03:44 o 20:03:45 o 20:03:49 :o 20:04:00 ::o 20:05:07 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 20:13:34 -!- Corun has joined. 20:18:29 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit. 20:18:31 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 20:18:37 -!- ehird has set topic: Epic win time. 20:18:38 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: Epic win time | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:18:58 8) 20:19:18 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 20:19:28 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/eurocreme 20:19:29 er 20:19:31 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/eurocreme. 20:19:37 . . . . . 20:19:40 HALP 20:19:48 -!- ehird has set topic: ?. 20:19:48 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: ? | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:19:51 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/eurocreme. 20:19:55 WTFAIL 20:20:05 -!- ehird has set topic: tunes.org. 20:20:05 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: tunes.org | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:20:05 Aw, the link does not exist :( 20:20:16 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs. 20:20:17 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:20:20 -!- Slereah has set topic: goatse.cx | tunes.org | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:20:22 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esocreme. 20:20:22 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esocreme | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:20:26 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/eurocreme. 20:20:30 Wow. 20:20:33 Only eurocreme breaks it. 20:20:36 That is amazing. 20:23:08 lol 20:23:26 -!- ehird has set topic: eurocreme. 20:23:27 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: eurocreme | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:23:34 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esocreme. 20:23:34 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esocreme | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:23:37 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/eurocreme. 20:23:38 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/eurocreme | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:23:40 ... 20:23:40 O 20:23:42 MizardX: it works now 20:24:29 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/eurocreme. 20:25:32 -!- ehird has set topic: a. 20:25:33 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: a | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:25:41 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/eurocreme. 20:25:46 MizardX: :| 20:26:15 -!- MizardX has set topic: b. 20:26:21 -!- MizardX has set topic: b c. 20:26:28 -!- MizardX has set topic: b c :. 20:29:43 -!- MizardX has set topic: b. 20:29:43 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: b | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:29:50 -!- MizardX has set topic: b c. 20:29:50 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: b c | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:29:54 -!- MizardX has set topic: b c ://. 20:29:55 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: b c :// | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:30:10 -!- MizardX has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/eurocreme. 20:30:11 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/eurocreme | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:30:34 -!- MizardX has set topic: spamplex. 20:30:41 ... 20:30:49 ... 20:31:12 ;;;) 20:31:35 it always works a few times, then stops 20:31:35 so am i to understand you have a bug in a bot written in python? 20:35:27 -!- ehird has set topic: eurocreme. 20:35:27 bsmnt_bot: 20:35:31 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: eurocreme | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:36:04 -!- ehird has set topic: eurocreme. 20:37:03 ... it works sometimes. Now I need some food 20:37:05 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:37:19 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: eurocreme | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:37:21 -!- ehird has set topic: eurocreme. 20:37:22 -!- Judofyr has joined. 20:37:24 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: eurocreme | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:37:25 -!- ehird has set topic: eurocreme. 20:37:28 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: eurocreme | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:37:31 MizardX: ... 20:37:33 it works odd times 20:37:38 or even, w/e 20:39:15 well isn't that pretty awesome? 20:39:41 -!- ehird has set topic: eurocreme. 20:39:41 ... 20:39:44 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: eurocreme | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:39:53 -!- ehird has set topic: eurocreme. 20:39:53 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: eurocreme | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:39:56 -!- ehird has set topic: eurocreme. 20:39:56 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: eurocreme | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:39:58 o.o 20:39:59 -!- ehird has set topic: eurocreme. 20:40:00 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 20:40:59 -!- Slereah has set topic: If you were to die tomorrow in a table-related accident, I wouldn't give a rat's ass because I would be sitting on my table.. 20:41:00 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: If you were to die tomorrow in a table-related accident, I wouldn't give a rat's ass because I would be sitting on my table. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 20:48:10 It works only at times? 20:48:17 Maybe it waits for the next message or something. 21:15:45 -!- AnMaster has set topic: Hm What?. 21:15:49 or? 21:15:52 indeed 21:16:18 -!- AnMaster has set topic: Odd.. 21:16:18 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: Odd. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 21:16:23 ok. Very odd. 21:16:30 -!- AnMaster has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 21:16:36 -!- AnMaster has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | test. 21:16:39 hm? 21:16:52 -!- AnMaster has set topic: test | test. 21:16:53 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: test | test | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 21:16:59 -!- AnMaster has set topic: test | test | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esotaeric. 21:17:03 hm? 21:17:12 ehird, why does it only work sometimes? 21:17:17 -!- AnMaster has set topic: test | test | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esotaeric | any idea?. 21:17:18 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: test | test | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esotaeric | any idea? | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 21:17:32 -!- AnMaster has set topic: Topic goes here | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 21:19:17 -!- Slereah has set topic: Cock goes here | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 21:38:31 r5rs is so cool 21:43:27 folklore.org is down :< 21:48:13 -!- AnMaster has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 21:55:52 ehird, have you read r6rs? 21:55:57 yes. 21:56:02 it sucks shit 21:56:06 i once started reading it, and i wansn't really sure how i felt 22:03:37 -!- |MigoMipo| has joined. 22:09:27 -!- |MigoMipo| has quit ("QuitIRCException: MigoMipo out of IRC"). 22:20:32 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:31:04 ehird, English language question 22:31:24 would "Please don't hotlink images" work as a text to replace externally hotlinked images with? 22:31:53 (It isn't fun when someone hotlinks a full size screenshot and display it as a thumbnail.) 22:32:03 + "from this site" 22:32:10 AnMaster: I recommend goatse. 22:32:15 haha 22:32:18 Or, perhaps, "Hello! I am the owner of this site. I suck dicks!" 22:32:25 But yes, what MizardX said 22:32:32 ehird, not appropriate for this type of site 22:32:37 MizardX, hm ok 22:32:42 goatse is _always_ appropriate. 22:32:46 "Please don't hotlink images from this site" 22:32:47 right 22:32:48 Family gathering? Goatse! 22:33:10 It's the party trick that brightens ever family event 22:33:25 I wonder if Kirk Johnson knows of his fame 22:36:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 22:41:44 "this always happens to me in family scrabble games" 22:43:20 hahahah 22:43:29 "what letters do you have?" 22:43:38 "D, I, S, T, E, N, D, E, D, BLANK, A, N, U, S" 22:43:47 -!- M0ny has left (?). 22:44:59 Who's Kirk Johnson? 22:45:07 goatse man 22:48:55 The man behind the anus 22:49:55 in front of. 22:50:44 "And not all languages can do the same as all others.. as you seem to claim." 22:50:49 what 22:50:54 no msg from christel 22:50:54 => "What is turing completeness?" 22:50:56 :'( 22:51:06 flexo: she doesn't love you any more. 22:51:09 we all got messages from her. 22:51:13 :( 22:51:45 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 23:06:45 -!- decipher has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:07:08 -!- decipher has joined. 23:08:07 -!- decipher_ has joined. 23:08:08 -!- decipher has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:10:06 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:10:41 ehird: who said not all language can do the same as all others? 23:10:48 a reddit commenter 23:11:17 Well, he's right, if "all" means "all". 23:11:25 Which it doesn't in context :P 23:12:40 [23:41:44] "this always happens to me in family scrabble games" 23:12:43 ^ xkcd? 23:13:16 yes 23:14:24 ofcourse 2009-01-18: 00:00:00 -!- BeholdMyBot has joined. 00:00:19 Mwahaha 00:00:31 [00:59:58] <@FireFly> ^bf +++++++++++++.-----[->++++++++>++++>++++++++++++<<<]>++++++++++.+++++.------.+++++.>.+++.>+++++.++++++++++++++.----.+++++.---------------.+++++++++++++.---------.------. 00:00:41 = [CR]JOIN #esoteric 00:00:45 -!- BeholdMyBot has left (?). 00:03:32 ehird: I just released Coadjute, in case you're interested. 00:03:37 link 00:03:42 And with that, I'm off to sleep -> 00:03:54 iki.fi/matti.niemenmaa/coadjute 00:04:12 thx 00:04:12 :) 00:08:56 www.iki.fi/matti.niemenmaa/coadjute 00:09:32 oklopol: wut? 00:09:38 oh, for clickability? 00:13:33 ^bf ,[.,]!Hello World! 00:13:33 Hello World! 00:13:41 ^bf +++++++++++++.---[>++++++<-]>+++++<+++++[>+++<-]>.<+++++[>---<-]>.<+++++[>+++<-]>++.++.>+++++++[>+++++<-]>---.+++.<+++[<+++++>-]<++.++++++++++++++.----.+++++.---------------.+++++++++++++.---------.------. 00:13:41 .PART #esoteric 00:13:54 damn :P 00:13:58 ehird: yes. 00:15:51 -!- moozilla has joined. 00:28:21 Holy shit kottke.org redesigned and it looks so ugly 00:30:40 well, ok, only the STUPID BLUE BORDER looks ugly 00:43:21 yea 00:43:25 it started looking all fine 00:43:32 until loading the images finished 00:44:02 * ehird sees if he can block that image ;-) 00:55:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye"). 00:57:51 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:59:38 o 01:59:39 o 02:07:26 Great, I have a functioning Lispoid. It has only one primitive: lambda. 02:07:56 I don't want to figure out how it works, so you guys tell me what expressions to evaluate. 02:08:41 -!- GregorR has joined. 02:09:01 Hi, GregorR. I'm a LISP bot now. 02:09:44 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:09:58 I guess I was too scary. 02:11:05 WHO HIGHLIGHTED BSMNT_BOT 02:11:13 *Lisp> evaluate . read $ "((lambda a (a a)) (3 4))" 02:11:13 ((3 4) (3 4)) 02:11:47 Hey, I got it to go into an actual infinite loop. 02:11:55 As opposed to those fake infinite loops you see on TV. 02:12:33 ...not suprising 02:15:25 *Lisp> evaluate . read $ "((lambda s ((lambda k s) (lambda x (lambda y x)))) (la 02:15:29 mbda x (lambda y (lambda z ((x z) (y z))))))" 02:15:31 [lambda x (lambda y (lambda z ((x z) (y z))))] 02:15:36 Phear. 02:16:13 Replacing that inner thing with (s k) gives this: [lambda y (lambda z (((lambda x (lambda y x)) z) (y z)))] 02:18:05 ((s k) a) gives this: [lambda z (((lambda x (lambda a x)) z) (a z))] 02:18:16 (((s k) a) b), surprisingly, gives this: b 02:18:46 Wait, no, that's actually correct. 02:20:13 I'd be surprised if this could actually handle big expressions correctly. 02:30:36 * kerlo makes s, k and i built-ins 02:32:47 Now the only things we need are foldr and equality testing. 02:38:46 And both have now been implemented. 02:42:31 All we need to do now is make it an IRC bot! 02:47:18 Lambda is just one greek character. Why need 6 characters to encode it? 02:47:38 It would be shorter to just use L. 02:48:22 or some non-alphanumeric one, such as \, which resembles lambda 02:48:49 ((\s ((\k s) (\x (\y x)))) (\x (\y (\z ((x z) (y z)))))) 02:54:47 Yi actually has a built-in feature (in haskell mode) that translates '\' directly to the unicode-character 'lambda' in the right context. 02:55:10 tremendously useful for my sore eyes :-) 02:57:59 ((λs ((λk s) (λx λy x))) (λx λy λz x z (y z))) 03:02:04 I think my Lispy IRC bot is ready. 03:02:19 There's a small problem, though, in that any parse error in your expression will cause it to disconnect. 03:02:22 Oh well. 03:02:26 -!- kerlobot has joined. 03:02:36 #eval s 03:02:49 Oh, darn. 03:03:43 CREAMPUFF! 03:03:44 -!- kerlobot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:03:51 Cool, that made it quit. 03:10:08 So, I'm stealing someone else's IRC code. 03:18:18 -!- kerlobot has joined. 03:18:25 #eval s 03:18:25 [l x (l y (l z ((x z) (y z))))] 03:18:29 Woot! 03:18:39 #eval This is a syntax error: ]]]]] 03:18:40 -!- kerlobot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:18:47 Wow. 03:21:39 -!- kerlobot has joined. 03:21:44 #eval s 03:21:44 [l x (l y (l z ((x z) (y z))))] 03:21:50 #eval This is a syntax error: ]]]]] 03:21:51 Syntax error 03:22:06 Lovely. 03:22:53 #eval (((s i) i) ((s i) i)) 03:23:03 #eval I'm waiting... 03:23:19 Yeah, that's never going to finish. 03:23:22 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:29:43 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:29:49 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:34:16 -!- kerlobot has joined. 03:34:20 #eval 3 03:34:20 3 03:34:30 #eval This is probably a syntax error. 03:34:31 Syntax error 03:34:42 #eval "test" 03:34:43 "test" 03:34:48 #eval "test" + "test" 03:34:49 Syntax error 03:34:49 #temp This is probably a syntax error. 03:34:50 Syntax error 03:34:59 #temp muahaha 03:35:02 #eval "test" 03:35:02 muahaha 03:35:05 #eval s 03:35:05 muahaha 03:35:10 #temp input 03:35:14 #eval "test" 03:35:15 "test" 03:35:41 #eval (+ "a" "b") 03:35:42 (+ "a" "b") 03:35:46 Built-in functions: s, k, i, l, f, e 03:36:03 So one thing it can do is evaluate SKI calculus. 03:36:32 #eval ["a" "b"] 03:36:33 Syntax error 03:36:50 no way to concatenate strings? 03:36:55 Nope. 03:37:07 You might be able to figure out a way to concatenate lists, though. 03:37:24 #eval (+ [1 2] [3 4]) 03:37:24 Syntax error 03:37:27 f is the foldr function. 03:37:45 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:37:46 #eval [1, 2] 03:37:47 Syntax error 03:37:49 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:38:16 #eval (((l x (l y (list x y))) 1) 2) 03:38:16 (list 1 2) 03:38:48 Obvious improvement: make l take a list of arguments, not just one. 03:39:45 #eval ((l list (list x)) y) 03:39:46 (y x) 03:39:58 so how is list different from any other value? 03:40:03 It isn't. 03:40:16 numbers, strings and tuples 03:40:38 My lisp has three types: atom, list, and lambda function. 03:41:00 #eval "xy 03:41:00 "xy 03:41:02 oh 03:41:04 "foo" is an atom. "(blah blah blah)" is a list. "[l x y]" is a lambda function. 03:41:37 If you don't have any parentheses or brackets, you won't have any lists or lambda functions. 03:42:08 I know. Since you didn't mention strings, I had to test the function of " 03:42:15 * kerlo nods 03:42:40 " is not a special character in any way; only parentheses, brackets and whitespace are different from letters. 03:42:56 CREAMPUFF! 03:42:56 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:43:07 :P 03:43:29 -!- kerlobot has joined. 03:43:33 Now it's better. 03:43:52 #temp (the answer is input) 03:43:55 #eval (s k) 03:43:56 (the answer is (s k)) 03:44:05 Oh, that's not the answer at all. 03:44:07 #reset 03:44:10 #eval (s k) 03:44:10 [l y (l z ((k z) (y z)))] 03:44:42 #temp (x y) 03:44:46 #eval (x y) 03:44:46 (x y) 03:44:56 Now everything will evaluate to (x y). 03:45:02 #eval (x y input) 03:45:03 (x y) 03:45:06 #temp (x y input) 03:45:08 #eval (x y) 03:45:08 (x y) 03:45:24 The bot stores a template, which is by default "input". 03:45:49 The #temp and #eval commands substitute their input for the word "input" in the template, then do something with the results. 03:46:04 #reset 03:46:06 #temp sets the the template to it; #eval evaluates it and outputs the result. 03:46:06 Syntax error 03:46:14 Now the template is "input" again. 03:47:11 #eval s 03:47:11 [l x (l y (l z ((x z) (y z))))] 03:47:13 #eval k 03:47:14 [l x (l y x)] 03:47:15 #eval i 03:47:15 [l x x] 03:47:28 #eval (e 3 3) 03:47:28 (e 3 3) 03:47:32 Oops. 03:47:38 #eval (e 3 3 yes no) 03:47:38 yes 03:47:40 #eval (e 3 4 yes no) 03:47:41 no 03:47:59 #eval (f one two (1 2 3)) 03:48:00 (one 1 (f one two (2 3))) 03:48:08 #eval (f one two ()) 03:48:08 two 03:48:49 #temp ((l foo (How useful!)) input) 03:49:00 #eval (one fish two fish red fish foo fish) 03:49:00 (How useful!) 03:49:08 Oops, wrong way around. 03:49:09 #reset 03:49:21 #temp ((l foo input) (How useful!)) 03:49:23 #eval (one fish two fish red fish foo fish) 03:49:24 (one fish two fish red fish (How useful!) fish) 03:49:43 #temp ((l red input) (Not.)) 03:49:45 #eval (one fish two fish red fish foo fish) 03:49:45 (one fish two fish (Not.) fish (How useful!) fish) 03:50:03 #temp ((l fish input) (Look, they stack! foo foo foo)) 03:50:07 #eval (one fish two fish red fish foo fish) 03:50:07 (one (Look, they stack! (How useful!) (How useful!) (How useful!)) two (Look, they stack! (How useful!) (How useful!) (How useful!)) (Not.) (Look, they stack! (How useful!) (How useful!) (How useful!)) (How useful!) (Look, they stack! (How useful!) (How useful!) (How useful!))) 03:50:19 #reset 03:50:22 And that's how you set things. 03:56:30 CREAMPUFF! 03:56:30 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:56:36 -!- kerlobot has joined. 03:56:48 Now it should behave intelligently if you apply a function to too many arguments. 03:57:00 #eval (s x y z) 03:57:00 ([l x (l y (l z ((x z) (y z))))] x y z) 03:57:12 Nope. 03:57:53 Did I do something silly, like forget to reload? 03:57:57 CREAMPUFF! 03:57:58 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:58:10 -!- kerlobot has joined. 03:58:14 #eval (s x y z) 03:58:15 ((x z) (y z)) 03:58:19 Much better. 03:58:32 #eval (one fish two fish red fish blue fish) 03:58:32 (((((((one fish) two) fish) red) fish) blue) fish) 03:58:42 Look how intelligent that is! 04:00:11 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:02:07 Now to figure out how to concatenate two lists using this thing. 04:03:41 Okay, here are the guts of this bot: http://pastebin.ca/1311359 04:04:00 If I figure out how to access the wiki, I might write a little spec for this language and put it there. 04:05:17 what are you kids doing 04:05:21 kerlo whats this kerlobot thing 04:05:37 It's an esolang bot, I guess. 04:06:16 what lang 04:06:26 It's something resembling Lisp. 04:06:33 i see 04:06:37 and written ins haskell! 04:06:41 Yep. 04:07:07 only 53 lines for the whole bot? 04:07:31 The whole bot is 152 lines. The guts of the interpreter are just 53, though, I guess. 04:07:52 ah ok. 04:07:58 i was wondering why i didnt see io stuff there :p 04:09:11 CREAMPUFF! 04:09:11 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:09:19 -!- kerlobot has joined. 04:09:26 #eval (cons 1 (2 3)) 04:09:27 ((cons 1) (2 3)) 04:09:34 #eval (c 1 (2 3)) 04:09:34 (1 2 3) 04:09:38 There we go. 04:09:56 That's wrong, though. :-P 04:10:27 CREAMPUFF! 04:10:27 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:10:35 -!- kerlobot has joined. 04:10:40 #eval (a 1 (2 3)) 04:10:40 ((1 2) 3) 04:10:49 CREAMPUFF! 04:10:54 ahh very smart 04:10:55 :) 04:10:57 CREAMPUFF! doesn't actually do anything. 04:11:01 oh 04:11:03 darn 04:11:11 and here i thought it was your special restart command 04:11:11 I mean, it doesn't do anything that, say, "There we go." wouldn't. 04:11:12 haha 04:11:40 I assure you that this is all part of my evil plan. 04:11:48 #eval (list (1 2 3)) 04:11:48 (list (1 2 3)) 04:11:49 :P 04:12:20 oh, ski 04:12:22 i like ski 04:12:37 Do some ski, bsmntbombdood! 04:14:55 #eval f 04:14:56 f 04:15:31 #eval (l x (l y (x y)) a b 04:15:36 -!- kerlobot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:15:38 :P 04:15:43 Wow. 04:16:50 Let me fix the parser, then... 04:17:01 heh 04:17:24 -!- kerlobot has joined. 04:17:28 #eval (l x (l y (x y)) a b 04:17:29 #eval (l x (l y (x y)) a b 04:17:29 Syntax error 04:17:29 Syntax error 04:17:33 Jinx. 04:17:40 #eval ((l x (l y (x y)) a b) 04:17:40 Syntax error 04:17:54 Match your parentheses, my friend. 04:17:57 lambdas can only take one argument? 04:17:59 kerlo: that was quick 04:18:08 Lambdas can only take one argument, inded. 04:18:13 That was quick, indeed. 04:18:14 shouldn't it take longer than 3 seconds to make that change? 04:18:22 Well, I just added the line readsPrecLisp' n [] = [] 04:18:39 #eval (l (x y) (z (x y))) (1 2) 04:18:39 Syntax error 04:18:45 #eval ((l (x y) (z (x y))) (1 2)) 04:18:45 (((l (x y)) (z (x y))) (1 2)) 04:18:47 stupid haskell 04:18:59 Meaning "if you're waiting for a close bracket and there's nothing there, there are no parses." 04:19:21 #eval ((l x (l y (x y))) a b) 04:19:21 (a b) 04:19:44 #eval (this is the input) 04:19:44 (((this is) the) input) 04:19:54 Boring. 04:20:01 #temp (input input input) 04:20:01 #temp (input input input) 04:20:02 #temp (input input input) 04:20:04 #eval 3 04:20:05 ((((((3 3) 3) (3 3 3)) (3 3 3)) ((3 3 3) (3 3 3) (3 3 3))) ((3 3 3) (3 3 3) (3 3 3))) 04:20:10 #reset 04:20:46 #eval (l x (e x 3)) 4 04:20:47 Syntax error 04:21:10 Lists must be enclosed in parentheses. 04:21:17 #eval ((l x (e x 3)) 4) 04:21:17 ((e 4) 3) 04:21:50 wasn't e = equals? 04:21:59 Yes, but it takes four arguments. 04:22:12 #eval (l x (e 0 1 x 3)) 4 04:22:12 Syntax error 04:22:16 #eval ((l x (e 0 1 x 3)) 4) 04:22:16 Returns the third if the first and second are equal, the fourth otherwise. 04:22:17 3 04:22:28 #eval ((l x (e x 3 0 1)) 4) 04:22:28 1 04:22:41 #eval ((l x (e x 3 1 0)) 3) 04:22:41 1 04:23:03 I'm still waiting for someone to figure out a function for concatenating two lists. :-) 04:23:08 Might not be possible; I dunno. 04:23:53 nothing I could think of. foldr works for breaking up a list, but not putting it back together 04:24:23 you need car and cdr :P 04:24:29 and cons 04:24:44 #eval (a (does this look like) (cons to you?)) 04:24:45 ((((does this look like) cons) to) you?) 04:25:01 What we need is... 04:25:37 ...CREAMPUFF! 04:25:37 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:26:01 -!- kerlobot has joined. 04:26:06 What we need is v! 04:26:20 #eval (v test (a (does this look like) (cons to you?))) 04:26:20 (test ((((does this look like) cons) to) you?)) 04:26:29 I think that's wrong. 04:26:36 what's v? 04:26:38 #eval (v (1 2 3) (4 5 6)) 04:26:38 (((1 2) 3) ((4 5) 6)) 04:26:42 apply (Atom "v") (x:xs) = evaluate (List (x : map evaluate xs)) 04:27:07 what's the point of that? 04:27:13 Good question! 04:27:40 It was intended to circumvent this: apply f (x1:x2:xs) = apply (apply f [x1]) (x2:xs) 04:27:55 #eval (a x (1 2 3)) 04:27:55 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:27:55 (((x 1) 2) 3) 04:28:00 But that line sucks, so I've removed both. Creampuff. 04:28:01 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:28:13 -!- kerlobot has joined. 04:28:18 #eval (1 2 3) 04:28:18 (1 2 3) 04:28:23 ugh, haskell 04:28:26 #eval (a x (1 2 3)) 04:28:26 (x 1 2 3) 04:28:30 tryin to be all elegant 'n shit 04:28:35 Now it's starting to look like cons, eh? 04:29:00 #eval (a (1 2 3) (4 5 6)) 04:29:01 ((1 2 3) 4 5 6) 04:30:14 #eval (f a () ((1 2 3) (4 5 6))) 04:30:15 ((1 2 3) f a () ((4 5 6))) 04:30:44 I'm sure something looked like a good idea at the time. 04:31:05 #eval (f a x ((1 2 3) (4 5 6))) 04:31:05 ((1 2 3) f a x ((4 5 6))) 04:31:07 Let me make it better. 04:31:32 #eval (f one two (1 2 3)) 04:31:32 (one 1 (f one two (2 3))) 04:31:59 Cream. 04:32:00 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:32:06 -!- kerlobot has joined. 04:32:10 #eval (f one two (1 2 3)) 04:32:11 (one 1 (one 2 (one 3 two))) 04:32:17 #eval (f a x ((1 2 3) (4 5 6))) 04:32:18 ((1 2 3) a (4 5 6) x) 04:32:21 ... 04:32:27 Strange. 04:32:35 #eval (f a () ((1 2 3) (4 5 6))) 04:32:36 ((1 2 3) (4 5 6)) 04:32:41 Less strange. 04:32:57 #eval (f one two ((1 2 3) (4 5 6))) 04:32:57 (one (1 2 3) (one (4 5 6) two)) 04:33:22 #eval (f (a x) () ((1 2 3) (4 5 6))) 04:33:22 ((a x) (1 2 3) ((a x) (4 5 6) ())) 04:33:45 #eval (f (a x ()) () ((1 2 3) (4 5 6))) 04:33:45 ((a x ()) (1 2 3) ((a x ()) (4 5 6) ())) 04:34:18 it should re-evaluate it until it can't any more 04:34:32 #eval ((a x ()) (1 2 3) ((a x ()) (4 5 6) ())) 04:34:32 ((x) (1 2 3) ((a x ()) (4 5 6) ())) 04:34:38 Yeah, that's broken. 04:35:16 Puff. 04:35:16 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:35:22 -!- kerlobot has joined. 04:35:29 #eval (f (a x) () ((1 2 3) (4 5 6))) 04:35:30 ((a x) (1 2 3) ((a x) (4 5 6) ())) 04:35:39 #eval (f (a x ()) () ((1 2 3) (4 5 6))) 04:35:39 ((x) (1 2 3) ((x) (4 5 6) ())) 04:35:57 doesn't seem to recognize (a x) as a partial application of a 04:36:07 Nope. 04:38:37 #eval (f (l z (a x z)) () ((1 2 3) (4 5 6))) 04:38:38 ([l z (a x z)] (1 2 3) ([l z (a x z)] (4 5 6) ())) 04:39:01 * kerlo ponders how a head or tail function might be made 04:39:47 A variable-argument lambda would be very nice. 04:40:02 #eval (f (l a (l b a)) (1 2 3) (4 5 6)) 04:40:03 ([l a (l b a)] 4 ([l a (l b a)] 5 ([l a (l b a)] 6 (1 2 3)))) 04:40:10 A bit difficult, though. 04:40:28 #eval (f (l x (l y (a x y))) (1 2 3) (4 5 6)) 04:40:29 ([l x (l y (a x y))] 4 ([l x (l y (a x y))] 5 ([l x (l y (a x y))] 6 (1 2 3)))) 04:40:55 #eval (1 2 3] 04:40:55 (1 2 3) 04:41:09 Closing brackets don't seem to matter. 04:41:10 why doesn't that work? --^ 04:41:26 #eval ([l x (l y (a x y))] 4 ([l x (l y (a x y))] 5 ([l x (l y (a x y))] 6 (1 2 3)))) 04:41:26 ([l x (l y (a x y))] 4 ([l x (l y (a x y))] 5 ([l x (l y (a x y))] 6 (1 2 3)))) 04:41:39 Wait a bit, let me write the new lambdas. 04:41:41 #eval ((l x (l y (a x y))) 4 ((l x (l y (a x y))) 5 ((l x (l y (a x y))) 6 (1 2 3)))) 04:41:41 ([l x (l y (a x y))] 4 ((l x (l y (a x y))) 5 ((l x (l y (a x y))) 6 (1 2 3)))) 04:44:26 #eval ((l x 1) 3) 04:44:26 1 04:44:42 #eval ((l x (l y x)) 3 4) 04:44:43 ([l x (l y x)] 3 4) 04:44:50 #eval (((l x (l y x)) 3) 4) 04:44:50 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:45:09 :P 04:51:01 -!- kerlobot has joined. 04:51:13 #eval (((l x (l y x)) 3) 4) 04:51:13 (((l x (l y x)) 3) 4) 04:51:22 #eval ((l x (l y x)) 3 4) 04:51:23 ((l x (l y x)) 3 4) 04:51:25 ... 04:51:32 #eval ((l (x y z) (they are x y z z y)) 1 2 3) 04:51:33 (they are 1 2 3 3 2) 04:52:40 #eval ((l (x) (l (y) x)) 3 4) 04:52:41 ([l (x) (l (y) x)] 3 4) 04:52:50 #eval (((l (x) (l (y) x)) 3) 4) 04:52:50 3 04:52:54 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:53:02 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:53:27 #eval (((l (x) (l (x) x)) 3) 4) 04:53:28 4 04:54:52 #eval ((l (left right) (f a right left)) (1 2 3) (4 5 6)) 04:54:53 (1 2 3 4 5 6) 04:54:56 woot 04:55:53 #eval (e 1 2 3 4) 04:55:53 4 04:56:02 #eval (e 1 2 3 4 5) 04:56:02 (e 1 2 3 4 5) 04:57:34 #eval (f (l (x y) x) (1 2 3)) 04:57:35 (f (l (x y) x) (1 2 3)) 04:57:42 #eval (f (l (x y) x) r (1 2 3)) 04:57:42 1 04:57:51 #eval (f (l (x y) x) x (1 2 3)) 04:57:52 1 04:58:04 #eval (f (l (x y) x) x (this is a list)) 04:58:05 this 04:58:15 Congratulations, you've implemented head. 04:59:02 #temp ((lambda (l) input) (f (l (x y) x) (error: empty list) l)) 04:59:06 #eval (head (1 2 3)) 04:59:06 ((lambda (l) (head (1 2 3))) (f (l (x y) x) (error: empty list) l)) 04:59:10 Darn. 04:59:21 #reset 05:00:47 #temp ((lambda (head) input) (f (l (x y) x) (error: empty list) l)) 05:00:51 #eval (head (1 2 3)) 05:00:51 ((lambda (head) (head (1 2 3))) (f (l (x y) x) (error: empty list) l)) 05:01:02 :P 05:01:10 Why isn't that evaluating... 05:01:25 lambda? 05:01:30 D'oh. 05:01:34 #reset 05:01:43 #temp ((l (head) input) (f (l (x y) x) (error: empty list) l)) 05:01:47 #eval (head (1 2 3)) 05:01:47 ((f (l (x y) x) (error: empty list) l) (1 2 3)) 05:02:10 a little better 05:02:15 True. 05:02:42 #reset 05:03:14 #temp ((l (head) input) (lambda (list) (f (l (x y) x) (error: empty list) list))) 05:03:21 #eval (head (1 2 3)) 05:03:21 ((lambda (list) (f (l (x y) x) (error: empty list) list)) (1 2 3)) 05:03:48 #reset 05:03:55 #temp ((l (head) input) (l (list) (f (l (x y) x) (error: empty list) list))) 05:03:57 #eval (head (1 2 3)) 05:03:58 1 05:04:00 Finally. 05:04:08 #eval (head ()) 05:04:09 (error: empty ()) 05:04:21 Oh, that's silly. 05:04:27 #reset 05:04:40 #temp ((l (head) input) (l (ls) (f (l (x y) x) (error: empty list) ls))) 05:04:44 #eval (head ()) 05:04:45 (error: empty list) 05:04:57 #eval input 05:04:57 input 05:05:30 #eval (error: empty head) 05:05:30 (error: empty (l (ls) (f (l (x y) x) (error: empty list) ls))) 05:06:42 #eval s 05:06:42 -!- kerlobot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:06:48 ... 05:07:10 Hum. 05:07:16 -!- kerlobot has joined. 05:07:19 #eval s 05:07:20 -!- kerlobot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:07:32 Right, the definition of s is now broken. 05:07:57 -!- kerlobot has joined. 05:08:00 #eval 05:08:05 #eval s 05:08:06 [l (x) (l (y) (l (z) ((x z) (y z))))] 05:08:13 That's the new definition of s. 05:08:37 #eval (s x y z) 05:08:37 ([l (x) (l (y) (l (z) ((x z) (y z))))] x y z) 05:08:55 #eval (((s x) y) z) 05:08:55 ((x z) (y z)) 05:09:31 #temp ((l (s) input) lol) 05:09:36 #eval (((s x) y) z) 05:09:36 (((lol x) y) z) 05:09:41 #reset 05:09:47 #eval k 05:09:48 [l (x) (l (y) x)] 05:10:26 #eval (((l (x y) x) 1) 2) 05:10:26 (([l (x y) x] 1) 2) 05:10:33 #eval ((l (x y) x) 1 2) 05:10:33 1 05:10:45 no partial application 05:11:00 Correct. 05:11:00 of multi-var lambdas 05:11:27 #eval i 05:11:28 [l (x) x] 05:11:28 It's like Haskell, I guess. You have to explicitly uncurry them. 05:11:45 Explicitly curry them, rather. 05:12:02 It's just that Haskell pretty much uses curry by default. 05:13:18 #eval (a i (1 2 3)) 05:13:19 ([l (x) x] 1 2 3) 05:14:31 Fun fact: a evaluates its first argument. 05:15:51 I should sleep... 05:17:17 yesterday: «07:43:59» {MizardX} shower and breakfast 05:17:30 now: «06:17:16» 06:07:17 -!- metazilla has joined. 06:30:08 -!- moozilla has quit (Connection timed out). 06:41:08 -!- moozilla has joined. 06:54:16 -!- metazilla has quit (Connection timed out). 07:43:16 -!- moozilla has quit (K-lined). 07:56:01 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:56:58 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 08:57:46 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:29:03 huh, not a single spam message since yesterday? How strange, usually there are around 10-20 new spams after a night. 09:51:30 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:21:01 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:35:32 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:41:27 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 10:52:58 -!- oklopol has joined. 10:53:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:16:38 -!- Judofyr has joined. 11:21:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:32:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 12:14:11 -!- Mony has joined. 12:15:45 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:49:30 -!- sebbu2 has quit (No route to host). 13:04:56 -!- sebbu has joined. 13:16:21 -!- Judofyr has joined. 13:44:22 -!- ehird has left (?). 13:44:24 -!- ehird has joined. 13:46:52 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:47:57 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:49:23 -!- Corun has joined. 14:11:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:12:32 optimising scheme is hard, you can't even constant-fold (+ 1 1) because you can redefine + at any point 14:12:44 including e.g. EVAL on user input 14:15:06 you can constant-fold it, and have a global trigger system, attaching a lambda to unfold the constant when + is changed 14:15:28 essentially just a hack to get over the theoretical possibility of being fucked in the ass by a smart-ass user. 14:15:33 oklopol: that's not much of an optimization :-P 14:15:50 ehird: why not? you get the same speed as with just constant folding 14:15:57 oklopol: 14:16:00 you just need to do a few more lookups when defining functions 14:16:02 (define old+ +) 14:16:07 (set! + (lambda (a b) 0)) 14:16:11 [stuff] 14:16:11 (set! + old+) 14:16:26 then it does exactly the same as constant-folded, but slowly 14:16:29 and that's not very consistent 14:17:22 err. 14:18:35 i'm not sure what you mean 14:18:48 :D 14:18:56 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_sec_6.4 <-- god, scroll down to dynamic-wind 14:18:59 that shit is crazy 14:21:14 there isn't a subchapter on it, i would have to read the surrounding of the term 14:21:27 i've read that, so err what's its point? 14:21:53 * oklopol is too lazy to read more than absolutely necessary :< 14:22:03 maybe because i read about 10 hours yesterday 14:22:31 oklopol: it lets you detect call/cc, pretty much 14:22:40 i.e., if we call/cc out of the thunk thing, we call the after thing first 14:22:46 kind of 14:24:09 oh i remember. weird ordering shit and thunk stuff. 14:24:26 my brain is kinda mush atm :< 14:24:44 oklopol: basically i'm thinking about writing a super-mega-fast scheme implementation 14:25:01 and things like dynamic-wind piss me off because they throw my whole model around :< 14:25:57 ehird: well, the gist of compiling uncompilable things is to make the frequent case fast, that is, assume things happen the normal way and do somekinda hack around the fact they might not. this is a trivial idea of course, just that you might not want to do that because it's not fun to implement. 14:26:12 oklopol: not schemey though is it 14:26:25 ehird: well it's more schemey than say befungey. 14:26:29 schemey would be finding a fast way to implement everything without any special cases 14:26:41 in scheme you rarely, for instance, swap the meaning of + all the time for no reason. 14:26:42 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCException: MigoMipo out of IRC"). 14:26:50 ehird: well i'm not talking about dynamic-wind 14:26:53 i know 14:26:53 you should make that fast 14:27:04 i'm talking about the weirder stuff. 14:27:04 just, i mean, i don't like the idea of having your program being slower or whatever just because you used one particular featur 14:27:05 e 14:27:22 it feels like someone saying, you know, "don't do this", but it's part of scheme, and you should be able to do it and stay as fast 14:27:51 well of course not, i just don't think redefining on the fly is really a feature; dynamic-wind i have a hard time commenting, because i'd have to think about it first :P 14:27:55 oklopol: you have to understand that i'm going for crazy-ass speed 14:28:12 like, first interpreter, I'm gonna aim for like 5-6x slower than c, or so 14:28:16 i mean, that's really fast for an interpreter 14:28:27 then I think I'll make it a compiler/jit and write it totally in scheme and stuff 14:28:34 and I want to eventually get it ~2x slower than c 14:28:42 which will be awesome because I'll never have to write c again. 14:28:49 ehird: i'll assume you're compiling a recursive fibonacci definition into a closed-form expression. 14:29:04 and something equally awesome for everything else too. 14:29:34 oh you're just going for c speed 14:29:35 oklopol: a goal for the compiler is to get the generated asm be as compact as hand-written :DD 14:29:46 well, c is pretty fast :D 14:29:47 i was thinking like faster than assembly. 14:29:53 faster than theoretically possible 14:29:58 lol 14:30:01 i don't want to underestimate you see. 14:30:12 well it could be faster than c 14:30:22 because, I mean, it's compiling to machine code, pretty much 14:30:33 so you could probably write a program faster than the equivalent in c 14:30:49 so have you read computer architecture - a quantitative approach? 14:31:05 i'll just assume you have 14:31:14 so what's the first chapter's idea 14:31:15 i mean 14:31:26 50 pages of fucking random charts about speeds of random processors and shit 14:31:48 oklopol: i haven't, but 14:31:48 before getting to scheduling algorithms and other *content* 14:31:49 that sounds awesome 14:32:13 I'll have you guys know 14:32:20 That I just copied a bit of your conversation 14:32:23 In to another conversation 14:32:25 i mean i understand they want to include statistics and history and shit so people feel like they're reading about something that has practical significance. 14:32:32 To show an example usage of the word lol 14:32:37 Congratulations 14:32:40 You're THE INTERNET. 14:32:59 but what about us weirdos who can't skip the reading of the useless parts :| 14:33:18 Corun: ooh, which part 14:34:28 The bit with the lol in... 14:34:33 i was thinking like faster than assembly. 14:34:33 faster than theoretically possible 14:34:33 lol 14:34:33 i don't want to underestimate you see. 14:34:46 :D 14:35:13 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:35:21 hi ais523 14:35:31 hi oklopol 14:35:36 i had something to say to you at some point. just fyi, i already forgot what :P 14:35:39 wow, I'm so busy in RL 14:35:45 that explains why I'm here on Sunday 14:35:45 me too. kinda. 14:35:52 lol 14:36:06 ehird: me in #esoteric = me online 14:36:18 maybe I could optimize scheme by requiring a Proof of Fastness, which is the same program written in assembly 14:36:21 and it just uses that assembly 14:36:30 so there's more chance of me being here when busy, than there is of me being here when not busy 14:36:41 ehird: it would have to prove the two programs were equivalent, or there's be no point 14:36:55 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:36:58 no 14:37:05 if you want to mislead people, that's OK 14:37:14 it won't try and force its philosophy on you. 14:37:19 undefined behaviour if the two programs are different? 14:37:28 that way, it is in fact implementing the Scheme 14:38:06 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:38:16 hello ais523 14:38:21 hi 14:38:51 ais523: yes, exactly! 14:39:19 this is annoying, my mouse wheel seems confused 14:39:19 ...hey 14:39:25 so have you read computer architecture - a quantitative approach? 14:39:27 when I turn it downwards, it sometimes scrolls upwards, and vice versa 14:39:28 oklopol: no 14:39:29 ehird, that means you end up having to write asm instead of C 14:39:34 that is like, even worse 14:39:37 ais523: oh. you could have, maybe. 14:39:45 AnMaster: meh, just write C that's the same as the Scheme, and compile it into asm 14:39:52 when I turn it downwards, it sometimes scrolls upwards, and vice versa <-- that happened to be once 14:39:55 or, fwiw, write INTERCAL that's the same as the Scheme, and compile /that/ into asm 14:40:04 IRC client extension idea: detects when you make a joke and ignores AnMaster for 5 minutes so you don't have to hear it flying over his head. 14:40:09 ais523, what worked was taking the several old mouse apart, and cleaning it 14:40:16 Wouldn't that be great? 14:40:20 this one seems to be impossible to take apart 14:40:32 I agree it probably needs cleaning, but there's no obvious method for it 14:40:40 ais523, look under any stickers or such 14:41:06 there's one screw on the bottom of the mouse 14:41:24 but it has a big feel of "THIS IS AN OPTICAL MOUSE SO YOU DON'T NEED TO CLEAN IT SO WE AREN'T EVEN GOING TO LET YOU CLEAN IT, OK?" 14:41:50 ais523, if it has some kind of "pads" in the corners the screws are probably hidden under them 14:41:56 note that they can be hard to reattach 14:42:31 * ehird has a mouse that's like an optical mouse, except it doesn't suck and works on just about every surface. Also, no light on the bottom. 14:42:40 the corner pads fell off on my mouse before this one, and there wasn't anything underneath them 14:42:40 ais523, MS dumbm^Wintellimouse? 14:42:40 (The comedy option you're about to pick isn't correct.) 14:42:46 AnMaster: no, this one's by Toshiba 14:42:50 hm ok 14:43:05 I have an intellitrackball at home, I think 14:43:11 ais523, on ms mice they tend to be hidden under those corner pads 14:43:16 we got it for the desktop computer when mice kept falling off the table 14:43:22 but that one is cleanable, and I have to clean it lots 14:43:37 oh? 14:43:45 well I want a simple to clean mouse 14:43:49 preferably washable 14:44:07 same for keyboard 14:44:25 it's pretty hard to get decent mice nowadays 14:44:36 the retailer I bought this one from has since gone bankrupt 14:44:38 ais523, well yes, and hard to get large enough ones 14:44:54 that's not so much of a problem for me, I'm OK with small mice 14:45:03 ms mice actually tend to be the only ones that work for me when it comes to size 14:45:08 and even then only barely 14:45:31 things are too big for me. 14:45:45 i don't use certain features of programs because hte keyboard shortcuts are too hard for me to hit. 14:45:47 bbl food 14:45:47 because i have tiny hands. 14:45:54 ehird: so you mean it's *not* a bit clown nose? 14:46:07 also, it's hard to hold a mouse correctly when it's bigger than your hand 14:46:12 ehird: get a smaller keyboard? 14:46:14 oklopol: haha 14:46:17 ais523: this one _is_ small 14:46:39 oh dear. that joke was so oerjan. 14:46:50 ehird: you can always get a smaller one 14:46:53 i seriously think i'm slowly oerjanizing. 14:46:58 there must be some way to use an Eee PC as a keyboard, for instance 14:47:04 ais523: unlikely, in this case 14:47:13 and no way am I paying that much for a keyboard 14:47:14 also 14:47:19 the eee pc keyboard isn't much smaller than this i think 14:48:19 can't find any measurements of this kb on the internetwebs unfortunately 14:49:36 ehird: you can measure it with a ruler easily enough 14:49:42 if it's physically there in front of you 14:49:46 and if it isn't, how are you typing? 14:49:48 well, yeah, but that's _cheating_ 14:51:10 * ehird compiles an in-head list of things R5RS Scheme is missing to be able to write programs in 14:51:18 (it's surprisingly short, 5-6 or so elements) 14:51:47 could you add them to it easily? 14:52:31 Quite easily. Some are easier than others. 14:52:42 I don't think any of them break backwards compatibility, either. 14:53:05 (i.e., they don't change the semantics of any R5RS-correct programs, just define some R5RS-incorrect programs to be extended-R5RS-correct) 14:53:43 ais523: i'm going to write a Scheme implementation you see 14:53:50 in what? 14:53:55 to start with, C 14:54:01 Scheme's good for writing Scheme impls, but you have a chicken-and-egg problem there 14:54:03 then, for the next version, Scheme 14:54:07 ais523: what I 14:54:12 'm going to do is: 14:54:15 first version - interpreter 14:54:23 second version - compiler & JIT 14:54:31 one of my main goals for both is to be stinking fast 14:54:39 the first version I'm aiming for something like 5x slower than c 14:54:47 second version? hopefully, competitive with C 14:54:56 5x slower, in an /interpreter/? 14:54:58 good luck 14:55:03 ais523: ok, that was an exaggeration :-) 14:55:12 i meant like 10x, I was just being hopeful 14:55:22 i'm pretty sure 10x would be possible. 14:55:53 ais523: but indeed, chicken and the egg for version 2 14:56:02 one solution is to keep maintaining version 1 alongside it 14:56:05 so you can run version 2 14:56:13 but that kind of defeats the point of rewriting it in scheme 14:56:43 i don't like ghc's solution of "compile with the previous version, then just hold on tight to that binary" 14:56:46 it's fragile 14:56:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 14:56:55 bye. 14:56:57 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:56:59 wb. 14:57:03 ehird, hm when version 2 can bootstrap itself... 14:57:04 what did you miss? 14:57:10 AnMaster: how? 14:57:16 You need to run it initially. 14:57:22 ehird: how should I know what I missed? 14:57:26 one solution is to keep maintaining version 1 alongside it 14:57:30 ehird, you said compiler/jit? 14:57:30 is the last thing I didn't miss 14:57:34 14:56 so you can run version 2 14:57:34 14:56 but that kind of defeats the point of rewriting it in scheme 14:57:35 14:56 i don't like ghc's solution of "compile with the previous version, then just hold on tight to that binary" 14:57:38 14:56 it's fragile 14:57:40 AnMaster: yes, written in Scheme. 14:57:40 ehird, true 14:57:50 and it will likely use its own extensions. 14:57:53 so you need it to compile it. 14:57:55 ehird: it isn't fragile if you hang on to past binaries 14:58:01 yeah, it is 14:58:04 you shouldn't rely on a binary like that 14:58:07 it's too closed up 14:58:13 ehird: CLC-INTERCAL works like that 14:58:14 ehird, so well what about "statically compile if the code uses this subset" or something 14:58:21 ais523: it's CLC-INTERCAL. 14:58:22 instead of jit 14:58:24 and besides, it isn't closed up, you have the source and can regenerate it from the binary 14:58:31 AnMaster: sorry, I can only answer coherent questions 14:58:46 ehird, fair point 14:59:01 if you rephrase that coherently I'll answer :p 14:59:06 ehird, basically: will it jit or be able to compile stand alone binaries? 14:59:10 both 14:59:17 right 14:59:32 ehird, what about compiling to C as a different backend? 14:59:42 chicken and the egg 14:59:42 that would solve the issue 14:59:45 how do you run it to compile it to C? 15:00:04 ehird, well you boot strap it, in the future you can use the C source to compile it 15:00:07 AnMaster: that is the ghc solution for porting 15:00:22 but the resulting C program is more or less illegible, despite being portable 15:00:35 AnMaster: I dislike that solution 15:00:38 ais523, interesting, but wouldn't you need more for porting ghc, like adding asm output backend 15:00:44 because you don't have a way to get it going just from itself 15:00:49 you need to hang on to the one compilation 15:00:53 ghc compiles via C--, IIRC 15:01:04 so yes, you'd need a new C-- to asm backend 15:01:08 ehird, wasn't the original lisp hand compiled? 15:01:08 so 15:01:17 AnMaster: Yes. The original lisp was also trivially useless. 15:01:44 ehird, so maintain an interpreter that is portable 15:01:46 like gcc does 15:01:49 multiple stages 15:01:56 AnMaster: 15:01:57 14:56 one solution is to keep maintaining version 1 alongside it 15:01:58 14:56 so you can run version 2 15:02:00 14:56 but that kind of defeats the point of rewriting it in scheme 15:02:06 I love it when I can just copy and paste past messages to answer people. 15:02:16 actually, compiling gcc on a really old compiler needs a multi-stage bootstrap nowadays 15:02:18 ehird, well not exactly. Since version 1 could be written in portable scheme? 15:02:20 via older versions of gcc 15:02:35 AnMaster: now ehird will tell you there's no such thing as portable scheme 15:02:36 ais523, I'm pretty sure you can use a non-gcc for stage1? 15:02:43 AnMaster: no, it couldn't, because that's like raping myself. 15:02:43 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:02:44 AnMaster: you can, but only if it's relatively modern 15:03:04 ais523, well C89 is ok to expect of course 15:03:07 -!- kerlobot has joined. 15:03:08 for instance, there are no compilers for DOS that can bootstrap DJGPP 15:03:18 ais523, you could cross compile it 15:03:21 #what 15:03:22 the only way to get a workign DJGPP impl starting from something else is to cross-compile 15:03:22 input 15:04:32 ais523, shouldn't a standard following C89 compiler be enough for gcc stage1? 15:04:44 I don't think so 15:04:45 well yes you need make, sh and so on 15:04:50 for instance, I'm pretty sure it also needs a 32-bit int 15:05:02 which is not a requirement of a C89 compiler 15:05:08 interesting 15:08:39 #eval ((l (x y) (f a y x)) (1 2 3) (4 5 6)) 15:08:39 (1 2 3 4 5 6) 15:08:47 #help 15:08:54 kerlo: what does your bot do? 15:09:03 It evaluates this Lisp-like language. 15:09:23 The most important command is #eval, obviously. 15:09:28 lisp with different primitives 15:09:30 ? 15:09:34 I guess. 15:09:38 kerlo, specs for this lisp-like language? 15:09:51 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 15:10:06 Let me pastebin the source code and also demonstrate a bit. 15:10:34 since when is specs == source code 15:10:37 http://pastebin.ca/1311618 15:10:41 Since forever! 15:11:04 brb phone 15:11:35 The primitives are l (lambda), f (foldr), e (equality testing), and a (cons or apply); the familiar s, k and i are also implemented, but are not primitives. 15:11:43 #eval ((s i) i) 15:11:43 [l (z) ((i z) (i z))] 15:12:14 #eval ((l (x y) (blah y x)) (2 3)) 15:12:15 ([l (x y) (blah y x)] (2 3)) 15:12:29 * kerlo blinks 15:12:46 #eval ((l (x y) (blah y x)) 2 3) 15:12:46 (blah 3 2) 15:12:59 #eval *Y&DSY*&%&5ˆ‹̄›†¢ˆ¢§ˆ¯ßˆ•þ‡̂†̄ ̑›†‡·°_‚·̀ 15:13:00 Syntax error 15:13:04 BREAK DAMN YOU 15:13:07 #eval (f raa ree (1 2 3)) 15:13:08 (raa 1 (raa 2 (raa 3 ree))) 15:13:14 since when is specs == source code 15:13:23 Since nobody cares about your need of specs to survive. 15:13:35 #eval (e 1 2 yes no) 15:13:36 And since we people started using expressive languages. 15:13:36 no 15:13:39 #eval (e 1 1 yes no) 15:13:39 yes 15:13:53 #eval (a 1 (2 3 4)) 15:13:53 (1 2 3 4) 15:14:00 And that's it. 15:14:19 Well, there are also the #temp, #reset, and #what commands. 15:16:47 Dear DYNAMIC-WIND, 15:16:51 Please remove yourself from R5RS. 15:16:52 Love, 15:16:53 Elliott. 15:17:27 #eval (((s i) i) ((s i) i)) 15:17:37 ais523: it doesn't guard that. 15:17:39 ah, ok 15:17:40 now kerlo will have to restart it 15:17:48 #eval INFINITE LOOPED 15:17:57 shouldn't be too hard to put an anti-infiniloop protection on... 15:17:57 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:18:21 ais523: not at all. I'll send you the full source code so that you can do that. :-P 15:18:25 -!- kerlobot has joined. 15:18:43 kerlo: just; 15:18:50 have an extra argument to the reduce-stepper 15:18:57 put it at 1000 initially, and decrement it every time you recurse 15:19:02 when it gets to 0, return a special atom like 15:19:05 Oh, that does sound easy. 15:19:10 !looped! 15:19:36 what about output length? 15:19:44 they're symbols. 15:19:50 you can't concatenate them. 15:19:58 it can evaluate to a list, yes. 15:19:58 ehird, I mean, could you cause excess flood 15:20:05 since it outputs on one line, no,. 15:20:09 hm ok 15:20:30 you could still cause filled buffer I believe before it is split in lines 15:20:33 #eval (f (lambda (x y) (f a (y) x)) () (one two three)) 15:20:33 ((lambda (x y) (f a (y) x)) one ((lambda (x y) (f a (y) x)) two ((lambda (x y) (f a (y) x)) three ()))) 15:20:36 not sure about that 15:20:39 it isn't split into lines 15:20:42 also, nobody cares 15:20:43 #eval ((l (x) (f a x x)) (y)) 15:20:43 (y y) 15:21:04 ehird, yes but if you send 1 MB in one line the server is going to quit you anyway I think 15:21:10 at least some ircds do that 15:21:12 nobody caresnobody caresnobody caresnobody caresnobody caresnobody caresnobody caresnobody caresnobody caresnobody caresnobody caresnobody caresnobody caresnobody cares 15:21:39 #eval ((l (y z) (y (y (y (y (y z))))) (l (x) (f a x x)) (y)) 15:21:39 Syntax error 15:21:42 #eval (l (f) ((l (x) (f (x x))) (l (x) (f (x x))))) 15:21:42 [l (f) ((l (x) (f (x x))) (l (x) (f (x x))))] 15:21:48 ^ y 15:21:53 #eval (f (l (x y) (f a (y) x)) () (one two three)) 15:21:53 (f a ((f a ((f a (()) three)) two)) one) 15:21:56 #eval ((l (y z) (y (y (y (y (y z)))))) (l (x) (f a x x)) (y)) 15:21:57 ([l (x) (f a x x)] ([l (x) (f a x x)] (f a [l (x) (f a x x)] [l (x) (f a x x)]) [l (x) (f a x x)] ([l (x) (f a x x)]) f a [l (x) (f a x x)] [l (x) (f a x x)]) [l (x) (f a x x)] ([l (x) (f a x x)] ([l (x) (f a x x)]) f a [l (x) (f a x x)] [l (x) (f a x x)]) [l (x) (f a x x)] (f a [l (x) (f a x x)] [l (x) (f a x x)]) [l (x) (f a x x)] ([l (x) (f a x x)]) f a [l (x) (f a x x)] [l (x) (f a x x)]) 15:22:14 ais523: oi, use my y 15:22:21 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:22:36 #eval ((l (y z) (y (y (y (y (y z)))))) (l (x) (f a x x)) (l (f) ((l (x) (f (x x))) (l (x) (f (x x)))))) 15:22:36 ([l (x) (f a x x)] ([l (x) (f a x x)] (l (f) a ((l (x) (f (x x))) (l (x) (f (x x)))) [l (f) ((l (x) (f (x x))) (l (x) (f (x x))))]) [l (x) (f a x x)] [l (f) ((l (x) (f (x x))) (l (x) (f (x x))))] l (f) a ((l (x) (f (x x))) (l (x) (f (x x)))) [l (f) ((l (x) (f (x x))) (l (x) (f (x x))))]) [l (x) (f a x x)] ([l (x) (f a x x)] [l (f) ((l (x) (f (x x))) (l (x) (f (x x))))] l (f) a ((l (x) (f (x x))) (l (x) (f (x x)))) [l (f) ((l (x) 15:22:39 hm 15:22:42 #eval ((l (y z) (y (y (y (y (y z)))))) (l (x) (f a x x)) (q)) 15:22:43 ([l (x) (f a x x)] ([l (x) (f a x x)] (q q) [l (x) (f a x x)] (q) q q) [l (x) (f a x x)] ([l (x) (f a x x)] (q) q q) [l (x) (f a x x)] (q q) [l (x) (f a x x)] (q) q q) 15:22:50 ok, that seems to be a bug 15:22:53 #eval (l (f) ((l (x) (f (x x))) (l (x) (f (x x))))) 15:22:54 [l (f) ((l (x) (f (x x))) (l (x) (f (x x))))] 15:22:55 lambdas don't seem to be scoping properly 15:22:57 ais523333333333333333333333333333333333333333333 15:23:08 ais523: it doesn't do renaming 15:23:09 iirc 15:23:10 #eval (f (l (x y) (f a (x) y)) () (one two three)) 15:23:10 (three two one) 15:23:24 then how can I do recursion properly? 15:23:30 ais523: congratulations, you've discovered the lambda bug. 15:23:43 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:23:51 well, if it's a known bug, that's OK 15:23:51 too many bloody (non-indented) parentheses for me to read 15:24:05 makes it pretty hard to program in, though 15:24:08 ais523, would this bug make the language sub-tc? 15:24:24 no idea 15:24:24 Translate your program into SKI and see if it works. 15:24:28 probably not, if SKI works 15:24:31 ah 15:25:24 You might be able to circumvent it by using [l ...] instead of (l ...). 15:25:58 what do the square brackets mean? 15:27:03 The problem with writing a program in Scheme is that you have to write the implementation first. 15:27:19 ehird, or use an existing implementation 15:27:24 No. 15:27:28 That does not work correctly. 15:27:33 why not? 15:27:49 ais523: it's special syntax for a Lambda instead of a List evaluating to a Lambda. 15:28:03 AnMaster: I'd tell you, but that would take hours because it's you 15:28:10 AnMaster: ehird seems to think that various langs, like Scheme and Smalltalk, are inherently incapable of being portable 15:28:12 The insert function, which lambdas use for substitution, doesn't affect Lambdas as badly as Lists. 15:28:16 ais523: no, I don't. 15:28:26 ais523, well good thing there is R6RS then :D 15:28:28 * AnMaster ducks 15:29:13 and FWIW I'm incredibly tired of the "AnMaster says something stupid, ais523 replies saying something untrue in the format 'oh ehird thinks this and that' in a condescending manner" pattern that happens near-daily in here 15:29:15 ais523, and well, if you want non-basic stuff then R5RS is a pain. 15:30:55 at least C has a large enough standard library to make it possible to write kind of portable apps that are still quite useful 15:31:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:31:26 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:31:43 ais523, and well, if you want non-basic stuff then R5RS is a pain. 15:32:00 someone should invent a PSOX but for non-esoteric langs 15:32:06 hah 15:32:07 ais523: No. They shouldn't. 15:32:23 ehird: I had to use the equivalent of C's system() a couple of times when programming in Prolog 15:32:37 in order to do things that weren't included in its stdlib 15:32:42 What does system() do? 15:32:52 man system 15:32:56 kerlo: causes the implementation to behave in an implementation-defined manner 15:33:00 but in practice, normally runs shell commands 15:33:11 Ah, right. 15:33:47 system() probably has my favourite definition of any of C's standard library functions 15:33:58 actulaly, system(NULL) is defined 15:34:08 its return value tells you whether system() does anything or nt 15:34:09 *not 15:34:15 it doesn't tell you what, though, in the case where it doesn't 15:34:23 *the case where it does 15:34:26 s/n't$// 15:34:27 heh 15:34:28 s/n't$// 15:34:33 fail 15:34:40 ehird, argh you were half a second faster 15:34:47 no, multiple seconds 15:34:51 ehird, not here 15:34:52 ehird: lag 15:34:57 lag is for squares 15:35:04 it was more like about 1 second from where I was watching 15:35:07 from 15:35:34 I wonder if bitshifting pointers is allowed by C89. 15:35:44 you have to cast them to ints first 15:35:47 ehird, is it in C99? 15:35:53 AnMaster: I don't care. 15:35:56 it works better in C99 because you have uintptr_t to cast them to 15:35:57 ais523, that is undefined isn't it? casting them to int? 15:35:58 ais523: Can you cast those ints back? 15:36:03 AnMaster: no, implementation-defined 15:36:13 ehird: yes in C99, no in C89 because there might not be an integer type big enough 15:36:19 ais523, also uintptr_t makes no sense if function pointers have a different size 15:36:23 well, in C99 there might not be one either, but it at least gives you a compile-time error 15:36:30 AnMaster: yes, it's designed for data pointers 15:36:32 ais523: I don't care about stupid languages where sizeof(int) != sizeof(void *). 15:36:40 ehird, like amd64? 15:36:41 ehird: umm... 15:36:45 er 15:36:48 s/languages/architechtures/ 15:36:50 lots of C implementations have sizeof(int) != sizeof(void *) 15:36:53 AnMaster: amd64 is for squares. 15:36:58 ais523: those implementations are for squares. 15:37:04 unsigned long has the best chance of being the same size as void* 15:37:08 ais523, indeed 15:37:13 although it differs on DOS in certain memory models 15:37:32 * ais523 remembers the days of things like farmalloc 15:37:40 farmalloc!? 15:37:45 It allocates a farm. 15:37:54 A farm is an old DOS concept. 15:38:01 Basically, you can store N objects in there, where N is the size of the farm. 15:38:05 AnMaster: it allocates memory in a different segment 15:38:07 ehird, isn't it related to struct cow? 15:38:08 It's efficient because they're grouped together in memory. 15:38:10 ais523: Right, a farm. 15:38:16 which means you need a special type of pointer, called a far pointer 15:38:25 ais523, I see. I used mac back then 15:38:29 :/ 15:38:39 there are lots of memory models 15:38:47 basically, 4 of them allow for near/far pointers for data/code 15:39:01 and a 5th has far pointers for data and for code, but also makes the data segment and stack segment differ 15:39:10 ais523, so pointers come in several sizes? and some of these are relative current area? 15:39:15 AnMaster: yes 15:39:22 char __near * is 16 bits 15:39:25 char __far * is 32 bits 15:39:37 interesting 15:39:42 and if you don't put the unportable qualifier on, it uses implementation defaults 15:39:56 (which is legal C89, but with different sizeof() returns, in all 5 memory models) 15:40:11 malloc gave you a data pointer 15:40:16 wtf is the "unportable qualifier"? 15:40:21 AnMaster: __near or __far 15:40:23 ah 15:40:27 are qualifiers, but obviously not portable ones 15:40:34 ais523, I thought there was something like __unportable 15:40:36 that you meant 15:40:40 no, that would be ridiculous 15:40:44 agreed 15:40:49 haha 15:40:53 that would be awesome 15:41:08 17:40… WolfMn22: are you there 15:41:08 17:40… WolfMn22: are you there 15:41:08 17:40… WolfMn22: young beautiful woman 15:41:14 * oklopol has a fan 15:41:15 there should be __portable too of course 15:41:18 IIRC, most DOS compilers worked without the double-underscore, except in strict ANSI mode 15:41:21 a GCC extension 15:41:30 that forbids other GCC extensions :D 15:41:43 (yes -ansi already does it...) 15:41:49 AnMaster: well, nowadays in C99 we have _Pragma 15:42:03 which is basically __attribute__ with a more official name 15:42:06 ais523, well GCC actually have __extension__ iirc, for use in system headers 15:42:15 IMO, gcc should accept it as a synonym for __attribute__ 15:42:16 and yes 15:42:17 ais523, also doesn't C89 have plain #pragma? 15:42:20 AnMaster: yes 15:42:30 _Pragma is just for using in macros iirc 15:42:31 but the gcc folks didn't like it because it couldn't be generated using macros 15:42:39 indeed 15:43:31 it's interesting to see what pragmas are used for, actually 15:43:47 ais523, oh also x86_64 has several memory models, I don't know what the point is of that though 15:43:50 my first C implementation was Borland C++, which I normally used in C++ mode because I didn't know better 15:44:01 it had pragmas to turn compiler warnings on and off 15:44:09 -mcmodel 15:44:14 and to run things before the program started, like atexit in reverse 15:44:32 it had pragmas to turn compiler warnings on and off <-- very recent GCC has pragmas, and attributes, for that too 15:44:39 and other compiler options 15:44:48 oh, and a pragma to change its command-line options dynamically, which was fun 15:44:49 like changing to -O3 for just a single function 15:44:54 yes 15:45:09 you should be able to change -Wl dynamically 15:45:16 so you can have different linker options for different functions 15:45:18 that would be hard 15:45:26 then watch the poor linker try to figure out wtf you're doing 15:45:44 um would require changing the object file format I think 15:45:54 I suppose so 15:45:56 "What's this? a JOKE?" 15:46:10 ehird: #esoteric is where we make jokes possible 15:46:11 -mcmodel=small, -mcmodel=kernel, -mcmodel=medium, -mcmodel=large 15:46:19 ais523: and kill them seconds later.. 15:46:22 even if something is clearly absurd, it's still fun to figure out how to do it 15:46:23 . 15:46:31 * AnMaster agrees with ais523 15:46:37 don't let not explaining a joke get in the way of a great esoprogramming idea 15:47:37 I'd like to think that [ um would require changing the object file format I think] was written with that intention, 15:47:41 grr... this VHDL IDE has frozen 15:47:42 but I find it incredibly difficult. 15:48:00 ehird: well, I was thinking about it as an actual serious idea 15:48:00 ehird, I was thinking about how to implement it yes 15:48:13 not really in terms of implementation, but about what could be done with such a feature if it existed 15:48:15 not all linker options could be changed that way 15:48:23 but some yes 15:48:24 in gcc-bf, for instance, you could run-length-encode certain functions 15:48:30 or cause only certain functions to show a progress bar 15:48:38 (more useful would be adding debug info only to certain functions) 15:48:55 ais523, there are already some __attribute__s that affect linking, like the visibility one 15:49:08 yes, so it isn't utterly implausible 15:49:30 --emit-relocs sounds like it could be done per-func too 15:49:32 * ais523 gets annoyed at DRM and licence managers 15:50:01 you've never been annoyed at DRM before? 15:50:05 back on my laptop, I just use ghdl, it doesn't need to contact a licence server to verify I'm allowed to use it 15:50:11 ehird: rarely, I don't normally use DRMed prorgams 15:50:16 ais523, ghdl? 15:50:20 drm is retarded, yep 15:50:28 AnMaster: a gcc-based VHDL simulator 15:50:36 it compiles VHDL into executables, which is crazy enough in the first place 15:50:43 haha 15:50:57 and the executables can be run as executables, but they have a huge number of debug options and switches 15:51:00 which is what you normally end up using 15:51:04 also what is wrong with the Direct Rendering Manager? 15:51:18 possibly VHDL is the only lang more often run under a debugger than not 15:52:01 I mean, DRM allows open source opengl drivers on linux 15:52:07 and possibly other *nix 15:52:10 AnMaster: I think you're taking a joke too far now 15:52:11 (not sure about that) 15:52:21 especially when it wasn't that funny in the first place 15:52:47 ais523, I believe the DRM in the meaning I used existed before the copy protection crap 15:52:58 what ais523 said 15:52:59 possibly 15:53:07 but TLAs are oversubscribed nowadays 15:53:09 why not just call it copy protection, that is the original name 15:53:16 and normally which one is meant is obvious from context 15:53:17 because people call it drm 15:53:25 language changes, it's only useful if we use the same one everyone else does 15:53:26 AnMaster: also, DRM goes further than copy prevention mechanisms 15:53:29 crazy, I kno. 15:53:32 also, what ais523 said. again. 15:53:39 ais523, well I have no personal experience of it 15:53:44 so: possible 15:53:48 DRMd stuff can normally be copied just fine, it's just that the resulting copies don't run 15:53:52 15:53 are there good implementations of .NET for python? does it require mono? 15:53:56 i implement .NET in python for breakfast 15:54:05 ais523, interesting. 15:54:07 but .NET is a bytecode and API, not a language 15:54:22 ais523: congratulationsyougotthejoke.com 15:54:25 (Someone register that) 15:54:37 ais523, also there is only one copy protection that actually works. Make it all in hardware. Software can *always* be copied 15:54:45 arguably, he might just want the API 15:54:46 hardware is harder 15:54:56 if you think hardware makes copy protection work you're deluded 15:54:56 AnMaster: hardware can often be copied too 15:54:58 ais523: yes, that's the idea 15:55:09 ais523, yes but you need like millions to do it, you said so yourself 15:55:19 fail 15:55:20 digitally, if it can be consumed, it can be cloned instead 15:55:22 AnMaster: to manufacture it, yes 15:55:28 ais523, yes exactlu 15:55:30 exactly* 15:55:36 on the other hand, working out the internals and running on a simulator is a lot cheaper 15:55:38 and often good enough 15:55:47 #quit 15:55:47 -!- kerlobot has quit ("Exiting"). 15:55:54 -!- kerlobot has joined. 15:56:01 kerlo: using # as a bot prefix is really confusing 15:56:06 True. 15:56:09 all your kerlobot commands come out in blue and hyperlinked 15:56:10 ais523, well depends on what thing you want to simulate, I mean you can simulate a SNES easily enough. But a Wii? Probably not on modern computers 15:56:12 #esoteric 15:56:26 umm, simulating a Wii wouldn't exactly be hard... 15:56:27 you would probably end up with an expensive cluster or such to do it 15:56:28 It's not a supercomputer... 15:56:44 It's less powerful than home computers. 15:56:45 ehird: you'd still have to do cross-processor virtualisation 15:56:47 ehird, ok what about a Sony Playstation thingy, those used for MD5 15:56:50 what sort of processor does the Wii have? 15:56:55 ais523: PPC 15:57:05 ehird, I believe it would be kind of slow to simulate that on most desktops 15:57:11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadway_(microprocessor) 15:57:20 AnMaster: that's just a gpu. 15:57:23 computers can have gpus. 15:57:23 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 15:58:04 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:58:39 -!- Corun has joined. 15:58:57 Whoa, it's 4 15:59:06 what is? 15:59:10 the time in the UK 15:59:11 The time. 15:59:15 not quite, actually 15:59:17 ais523: the UTC time, too. 15:59:19 still 3:59 by my clock 15:59:23 Yes, mine too. 15:59:28 Well, 15:59. 15:59:31 16:59 here so 15:59 there 16:00:11 And now it is 16:00 according to normish.org. 16:00:19 yes 16:00:32 according to my NTP-synchronized clock, too 16:00:57 + a few seconds when you said it kerlo 16:01:03 11 seconds late then in fact 16:01:08 This little clock doesn't display seconds. 16:01:09 hmm... may as well have a look at Normish while I'm waiting for this stupid IDE to figure out what it's doing 16:01:49 ais523, what IDE? 16:01:54 that expensive one? 16:02:11 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 16:02:30 -!- Corun has joined. 16:03:26 btw, what is the difference between PPC and Cell? 16:03:33 I haven't really managed to understand that 16:06:35 Creampuff! 16:06:36 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:07:34 -!- kerlobot has joined. 16:07:40 %eval t 16:07:40 (Just (-1000)) 16:07:55 %eval (((s i) i) ((s i) i)) 16:08:02 ((loop i) (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i 16:08:14 %eval (2 + 2) 16:08:14 (2 + 2) 16:08:18 Wow. 16:08:22 Damn, I was hoping for haskelleramation. 16:08:26 kerlobot: epic fail thar 16:09:05 haskelleramation? 16:09:16 yes I *did* try google 16:09:23 and no I can't figure out what it means 16:09:41 apart from being related to haskell 16:09:45 -!- ais523_ has joined. 16:09:54 Being interpreted as Haskell, or something. 16:09:54 hello ais523_ 16:10:00 kerlo, aha 16:10:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:10:10 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 16:10:21 ais523, this IDE needs to run at uni? you can't run it at home? 16:10:25 yes 16:10:34 expensive closed-source stuff 16:10:35 hm, oh that is the DRM stuff? 16:10:49 I'm not sure 16:10:59 it seems to go wrong only when opening a project, not when loading hte IDE itself 16:11:18 ais523, is it on your laptop or only on school computers? 16:11:29 Okay, let's see, boolean pair symbol number char string vector port procedure continuation table. 16:11:39 it's only on the university computers 16:11:39 or s/school/uni/ 16:11:44 What else, I wonder? 16:11:44 I'm typing this on my laptop 16:11:46 well uni is a type of school 16:11:48 which is next to the Uni computer atm 16:11:49 ais523, aha 16:11:53 That's it I think. 16:11:55 keyboard, keyboard, mouse, mouse 16:12:11 ehird, data types for your scheme? 16:12:18 No. Fluffy bunnies. 16:13:34 ehird, well if you are doing this insanely speed optimised you might want to optimise lists in some special way, to make them into arrays in some contexts, might not need a different data type 16:13:55 Suggesting such a thing shows a severe lack of understanding of the general usage case of cons lists. 16:14:20 ehird, well, true they are meant to be accessed from head to tail 16:14:34 ooooo 16:14:36 you could have an array type as well as a cons list type 16:14:45 you could even go all OCaml and have imperative types as well as functional types 16:14:48 but sometimes real arrays are useful indeed 16:14:52 which drives me mad, but is good for speed 16:14:53 ais523: Vector. 16:15:00 read R5RS. 16:15:09 oh, I didn't know about that either... 16:15:17 * AnMaster looks 16:16:09 I wonder how i should implement bignums. 16:16:17 Maybe as an array of fixnums. 16:16:24 In base MAX_FIXNUM. 16:16:45 ehird, well I don't know what is fastest, but isn't gmp quite fast? 16:17:00 I will not use gmp/ 16:17:05 s/\/$/./ 16:17:16 oh? what is wrong with it? 16:17:46 I now believe it impossible to get kerlobot to quit. 16:17:57 #quit 16:18:00 hm nope 16:18:18 /kill kerlobot would work if I was a server op, but I'm not 16:18:33 if I had a botnet, which I do not, a DDoS would work 16:18:45 And that is a dare. 16:18:45 but that is rather crude 16:19:18 hm 16:19:45 we could physically go round to kerlo's computer and disconnect the network cable 16:19:52 but that would be too expensive in plane fares, I think 16:20:02 ais523, or we could fake an abuse@ to his isp? 16:20:10 hmm... kerlo's in the same timezone as me, maybe not 16:20:26 oh, wait 16:20:30 ais523, the bot says comcast 16:20:30 kerlo's bouncing off Normish 16:20:34 which iirc is US? 16:20:35 which runs at UTC 16:20:42 no wonder ctcp time told me UTC 16:21:04 GeoIP Country Edition: US, United States 16:21:05 hm 16:21:49 I'm bouncing off Normish, but kerlobot is connected directly from here. 16:22:38 ais523, another idea, which I admit would also be expensive: contact any local maffia, asks for the "special offer" 16:22:43 mafia* 16:23:23 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:23:46 ok, that one's insane 16:23:59 not just expensive, you have to worry about repercussions on yourself too 16:24:04 yes 16:24:15 umm 16:24:17 another option: bribe a Freenode staffer 16:24:24 although we're into the realms of insanity here 16:24:25 you know, killing kerlo doesnt kill kerlobot 16:24:26 ais523, I believe social engineering on freenode staff would work better 16:24:26 neccessarily 16:24:42 ehird: I'm bouncing off Normish, but kerlobot is connected directly from here. 16:24:49 And? 16:24:53 Killing kerlo != killing his net. 16:25:01 ehird, when isp doesn't get paid they will cut his connection 16:25:04 yes it may take a few weeks 16:25:14 I imagine his parents pay for the connection. 16:25:17 As he's a teen. 16:25:26 ah, didn't know that 16:25:46 kerlo, anyway, does it handle connection timeout and such properly? 16:33:31 hmm... it seems that this IDE is just very very slow today for some reason 16:33:39 half an hour later, it shows signs of activity 16:33:49 ais523, windows? 16:33:54 yes 16:34:09 it might be the domain timeout bug, I suppose, but I don't think so 16:34:13 if yes, all the spyware installed are busy calling home, please show some consideration and wait for them to finish 16:34:21 I doubt it's spyware 16:34:29 mostly because these computers are reimaged every night 16:34:45 idea: install a spyware on the master image 16:35:05 there are legitimate reasons to knock and dislike Windows; please don't improve its reputation with baseless trolling that makes the legitimate complaints seem bad 16:35:21 ais523, I was trying to joke 16:36:01 protip: jokes are meant to be funny 16:36:21 ehird, in that case I would ask oerjan, not you 16:37:31 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:37:40 s9.c:27: error: ‘NULL’ undeclared here (not in a function) 16:37:42 wat 16:37:51 ehird, stdlib.h 16:38:06 NULL isn't a keyword 16:38:06 not stddef.h? 16:38:11 stdlib IIRC 16:38:12 flexo, oh maybe that too 16:38:20 I don't think I've used stddef for years 16:38:26 stdlib is included. 16:38:27 (hmm... maybe it's included from stdlib, that would explain it) 16:38:31 and it is not my program. 16:38:49 ais523, lots of headers include it 16:39:59 this is really annoying, this program's running massively slowly and I'm not even allowed to use a top-alike to see what's happening 16:40:13 'allowed'? 16:40:17 ah yes, task manager is allowed here 16:40:21 ehird: yep, locked-down system 16:41:48 [[I've always hated the idea of a garbage collector. I understand why it's useful for most people, but I prefer being in control]] 16:41:59 OK, this is insane 16:42:00 I wonder if there's a study on the link between programmers and sadists. 16:42:04 when I try to run the program, it waits for a whiel 16:42:07 er, masochists 16:42:09 * ehird brainfart 16:42:17 er, wait. both. 16:42:25 then prints the message Process "Synthesize - Synpifly Pro" failed 16:42:30 no error messages or warnings, but that 16:42:30 ehird : Do you like clothepins on your nipple 16:42:31 s 16:42:44 no other output at all apart from that and a "Started" message 16:42:50 IOW, this program is failing and won't tell me why 16:48:14 Hm. 16:48:42 I am becoming more and more convinced that the plain machine stack is the best way to handle function calls. 16:48:53 It seems that copying the c stack isn't actually very hard 16:48:58 and it is fast 16:49:45 One issue with using the machine stack is, how do you return multiple values in C, like scheme requires? You can't 16:50:18 it's entirely possible to return multiple values on the stack, just C doesn't provide a syntax for it 16:50:21 people do that all the time in asm 16:50:35 Right, but is it _possible_ to do it portably in C? No. 16:50:40 yes: you can do the same thing by returning a struct that contains all the data you want to return 16:50:50 DING! Wrong. That is not the "same thing". 16:50:56 that ends up compiling to the same asm that returning multiple elements is 16:51:02 or would be 16:51:15 so that very is the same thing 16:51:24 (unless you have a perverse ABI) 16:51:45 17:50 < ais523> it's entirely possible to return multiple values on the stack, just C doesn't provide a syntax for it 16:51:50 as in.. returning a struct? 16:51:54 well, yes 16:52:01 returning a struct, in this case, is not an option 16:52:01 returning a struct is technically speaking only returning one value 16:52:04 but it comes to the same thing 16:52:22 (returning a /pointer/ to a struct is different, returning the struct itself by-value isn't) 16:55:52 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Excess Flood). 16:56:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:00:39 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:01:57 setjmp/longjmp are meant to be cheap, right? 17:03:04 sure 17:03:17 getcontext/setcontext presumably aren't :P 17:03:31 depends on what you mean by cheap i suppose 17:03:38 efficient 17:03:41 ... 17:04:00 they all work in O(1) 17:04:05 that's efficient. 17:04:08 no duh 17:05:17 but setjmp/longjmp don't have to do context switching 17:05:21 just stack unwinding 17:05:28 ehird: setjmp/longjmp are relatively expensive, at least compared to goto 17:05:29 so they are more cheap, yea 17:05:36 there was an article on thedailywtf about them 17:05:41 and lots of people went and did lots of benchmarking 17:05:53 ais523: Craziness context: I'm considering writing my own :x 17:05:58 and as for cheapness/expense, it depends on the processor 17:06:04 most will have to save all the registers 17:06:16 which is relatively cheap on an 8086 and expensive on something which has loads of registers 17:06:48 ais523, wait, register starved is better? 17:06:55 not normally 17:06:58 true 17:06:59 but it's faster at longjmps 17:07:20 if you think about it, if you had no registers but the stack pointer a longjmp would just be assignment to the stack pointer 17:07:29 you guys think you're so tough at playing baseball. 17:07:31 and the return at the end of longjmp would return to the setjmp not to where it had been called 17:07:40 ais523, heh 17:07:48 i've having serious trouble deciding for a couch 17:07:49 i need help 17:07:50 well let me tell you something: a professional baseball player would beat the crap out of each and everyone of you. 17:07:51 :( 17:07:57 probably even in scrabble 17:08:01 ais523: well, yeah I'm pretty much going to do that since who cares about registers 17:08:01 oklopol, um? I don't play baseball 17:08:02 :D 17:08:08 and i hate scrabble 17:08:15 I fail at it all the time 17:08:38 oklopol, I suck slightly less at chess, but I'm far from good at it 17:08:49 :D 17:08:51 Whoosh. 17:08:56 i think i kinda like BEDDINGE 17:09:05 but it has no.. the... stuff.. at the sides 17:09:12 eh 17:09:13 let me make sure i understood, you suck slightly at it, but you are far from good at it? 17:09:24 flexo, an esolang? 17:09:27 no 17:09:28 a couch 17:09:30 17:07 i've having serious trouble deciding for a couch 17:09:37 beddinge? sounds like a 2D language 17:09:37 BEDDINGE 17:09:38 *i'm 17:09:39 oklopol: AnMaster sucks slightly less at chess than at scrabble, but is far from good at both 17:09:40 BEDDINGE BEDDINGE BEDDINGE BEDDINGE BEDDINGE BEDDINGE BEDDINGE BEDDINGE BEDDINGE BEDDINGE BEDDINGE BEDDINGE BEDDINGE 17:09:43 sorry I like that word 17:09:46 some sort of fungoid 17:09:51 ehird, oh BADGER? 17:09:53 http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S49839894 17:09:53 http://www.ikea.com/de/de/catalog/products/S29830007 17:09:54 ... 17:09:55 Neddomge 17:09:57 ... 17:09:58 lol 17:10:10 no arms :< 17:10:11 ais523: lol okay i failed :P 17:10:13 exactly 17:10:21 gotta have arms. 17:10:26 yea, i think so too 17:10:27 like, to shoot things with 17:10:33 it's in the constitution don't you know 17:10:41 ais523, indeed. How was it ambiguous? 17:10:44 not my constitution 17:11:08 nor mine :P 17:11:12 oh right 17:11:17 then it makes perfect sense that name 17:11:24 once you read it in Swedish 17:11:33 well not perfect sense, but much more sense that in English 17:11:35 BED BINGE 17:11:39 AnMaster: I don't think it was, I was explaining for oklopol 17:11:47 ah right ais 17:12:05 but the other sofa beds suck 17:12:16 no arms either 17:12:16 i dropped a crucial word 17:12:44 I want a desksofachairtablebed 17:12:46 all in one 17:13:23 before anyone asks: no, I can't imagine how it would look 17:13:25 AnMaster: I don't think that's impossible 17:13:38 you should be able to lie in bed and use the desktable at the same time, though 17:13:42 yea, just some huge tank with some fluid in it 17:13:46 likewise, use the desktable at the same time as the sofa 17:14:07 like the navigators in dune 17:14:54 *sigh* 17:16:08 choosing a couch online sucks 17:16:09 ais523: thought on bignums being array-of-ints-in-base-max-int? 17:16:21 but running around in ikea sucks even more 17:16:24 ehird: use an existing bignum library, it can almost certainly beat you by a lot 17:16:32 ais523: no fun 17:16:39 that seems like a plausible implementation, though 17:16:52 and it's the one that asm uses, if you're mad enough to do bignums in asm 17:17:48 really? 17:18:32 heh, one thing I can't do is track how many segments there are, since that needs to be a bignum too :) 17:18:37 so it'll have to be NULL-terminated 17:18:52 ais523: what about sign bits, do you think? 17:18:53 -A,B? 17:18:55 -A,-B? 17:19:00 NEGATIVE + {A,B}? 17:19:34 ehird, in an actual implementation it would be limited by sizeof(void*) 17:19:48 AnMaster: I think I'll make it a linked list 17:19:56 ehird: 2's complemetn 17:19:58 *complement 17:19:59 ehird, sounds slow, a vector would be better 17:20:12 ais523: that's for binray 17:20:14 binary 17:20:53 ehird: same trick works for any power-of-2 base 17:21:08 is the max of an unsigned long always a power of 2? 17:21:09 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:21:11 I guess so, in modern systems. 17:21:29 it's a power of 2 minus 1 on all C systems, I think 17:22:12 hmm 17:22:17 MAX_ULONG, MAX_UNSIGNED_LONG aren't defined 17:22:19 wonder what it is 17:22:23 ULONG_MAX 17:22:25 IIRC 17:22:27 o, right 17:22:31 probably should make it unsigned long long where that's supported 17:22:34 AnMaster will know even if I get it wrong 17:22:44 (2147483647L * 2UL + 1UL) 17:22:47 what about gcc? it has a type longer than long long as an extension 17:22:49 they couldn't just give a constant... 17:22:58 ehird: it has to be done like that, I think 17:23:16 due to handling buggy compilers which get confused by 'negative' numbers 17:23:20 lol 17:23:33 so, i'm working in base 4294967295 :D 17:23:39 except 17:23:42 wonder what unsigned long long max is 17:23:44 ULONGLONG_MAX? 17:23:48 ULL_MAX 17:23:53 and you should be working in base 4294967296 17:23:55 ULONG_LONG_MAX also 17:24:02 also, er, yeah 17:24:03 because 4294967295 is the maximum possible value 17:24:09 not ULL_MAX 17:24:09 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:24:13 ULL_MAX is undefined 17:24:23 ULLONG_MAX is actually plausible 17:24:24 -!- kerlobot has joined. 17:24:33 %eval (c W H A R R G A R B L) 17:24:34 WHARRGARBL 17:24:38 Yay. 17:24:48 ais523: ok, on this machine I'm working in base 18446744073709551614 17:24:54 what's the gcc thing you mentioned? 17:24:59 __uint128_t, IIRC 17:25:08 ah. I won't bother touching it 17:25:21 although if you don't have native 128-bit operators, it'll probably be slower 17:25:27 fwiw, probably using unsigned longs is best 17:25:34 why not unsigned long longs? 17:25:36 for very big numbers 17:25:39 ehird: because they'd have to be emulateed 17:25:46 err, why? 17:25:53 i'm on a 64 bit machine 17:26:13 oh 17:26:20 well unsigned long is 64 bits on a 64 bit machine 17:26:21 or ought to be 17:26:34 yea, ought to be. 17:26:36 OS X compiles things as 32-bit by default, though. 17:26:38 unfortunatly people suck 17:26:41 For god knows what reason. 17:26:51 actually 17:26:52 ehird: then 64-bit operations will have to be emulated 17:26:58 because they aren't available when compiling as 32 bit 17:27:00 long should more be like 128 bit on a 64 bit machine 17:27:13 int should be the native register size 17:27:20 ais523: what constant is defined for 64-bit/32-bit again? 17:27:23 i forgot.. 17:27:24 . 17:27:43 I don't think there's a standard one 17:27:44 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:27:59 sizeof(unsigned long) is normally an easy way to check, though 17:28:00 -!- kerlobot has joined. 17:28:02 flexo: int is 32-bit on gcc mostly even when you do -m64 though, isn't it? 17:28:06 %eval (h WHARRGARBL) 17:28:06 (W HARRGARBL) 17:28:08 and sizeof(int), likewise, tells you if you're on 16-bit or 32-bit 17:28:08 ais523: doesn't work on win32 though 17:28:16 ehird: yep 17:28:25 So, now you can cut symbols apart and put them together. 17:28:46 ehird: but that's only because people suck 17:28:51 ais523: why doesn't #error sizeof(...) work :-P 17:28:52 and fail to write portable software 17:28:55 it shoooooooooould 17:29:01 ehird: because sizeof is compile-time, not preprocess-time 17:29:09 >:::( 17:29:16 you can mess about with limits.h, though, if you prefer 17:29:20 or else use a static assertion 17:29:39 i had some flaming with zhivago about that one 17:29:47 huh ... sizeof(unsigned long) = sizeof(int) here 17:30:02 well 17:30:11 in 32 bit, sizeof(ul)=sizeof(int)=4 17:30:15 sizeof(int) really should be the native register size. 17:30:15 in 64 bit, sizeof(ul)=8; sizeof(int)=4 17:30:21 wtfomobil 17:30:21 e 17:30:28 and long should preferrably larger, emulated by software if necessary 17:30:31 i think what I can draw from this, is: 17:30:35 use unsigned long :-P 17:30:36 and "long long" is just silly 17:30:47 we need a long^N specifier 17:30:53 unsigned long^4 x; 17:30:54 no we don't. 17:30:56 :DDD 17:31:14 ehird: algol actually had long long long long long int as a valid data type 17:31:16 with any number of longs 17:31:23 :D 17:31:30 it had a constant, max lengths, which told you how many longs had an effect 17:31:33 likewise, max shorths 17:31:47 (identifiers could contain spaces in algol, which was a great way to cause confusion) 17:32:40 [ehird:~/Code/bignum] % cc -m64 bignum.c; ./a.out 17:32:40 18446744073709551614 17:32:41 [ehird:~/Code/bignum] % cc bignum.c; ./a.out 17:32:43 4294967294 17:32:46 that 64-bit output is lollerific 17:32:48 i mean 17:32:54 how many numbers do you deal with bigger than that? 17:33:03 typedef unsigned long bignum; 17:33:03 :P 17:33:29 ehird: my brother convinced me to teach him Perl, just so he could do really bignum calculations 17:33:32 he's looking for big primes 17:33:34 short short short short short short int: if int is 32-bits wide and can hold any of 4294967296 values, this is half a bit wide and can hold any of sqrt(2) values. 17:33:42 ofc, Perl isn't an ideal lang for doing that quickly, but it keeps him happy 17:33:44 ehird: like addressing modern harddrives? 17:33:51 ais523: lol, how old is he? 17:33:55 younger than me 17:33:58 I can't remember exactly how old 17:34:01 flexo: except im using this in an implementation of Scheme :-P 17:34:09 although theoretically you could do that 17:34:36 hm.. i used a certain lisp-subset a lot when i was a kid 17:34:44 anyone knows ADVSYS? :) 17:35:16 * ehird writes void bui_mod_succ(biguint n) , without knowing anything about how to actually implement stuff like this. 17:35:17 Woohoo! 17:35:34 ehird: how are you marking the length of the integer? 17:35:44 ais523: {blah,blah,blah,NULL} 17:35:54 dunno whether it'll be big endian or little endian 17:36:04 I'm thinking little endian, so that it's easier to do things like succ 17:36:07 without reading to the end 17:36:12 ugh, that's a really bad way to do it 17:36:18 is it :< 17:36:19 IMO, it should be length-prefixed 17:36:23 you don't want a special value 17:36:29 umm, fail :D 17:36:30 because then you can't use the entire range of your int, or whatever 17:36:34 how can you do that length prefixed 17:36:38 the length would have to be a bignum 17:36:40 ehird: well, yes 17:36:44 recursive bignums ftw 17:36:53 i don't think that would work. 17:36:54 but your method is much less efficient 17:37:18 "that is inefficient, use this impossible method instead" 17:37:35 ehird: you're going for speed, aren't you? 17:37:38 ais523: not atm 17:37:41 if I wanted efficient I'd use gmp 17:37:44 my advice is to make length-prefixed possible 17:37:50 I bet that's what gmp does 17:37:55 i don't care 17:38:00 it's simpler to implement this 17:38:04 and it's more conceptually pure 17:38:17 no, it isn't more pure, it's conceptually a lot dirtier 17:38:24 i don't care :) 17:38:30 there's nothing purer than going add/add-with-carry/add-with-carry all the way along a bignum 17:38:43 i don't caaaaaaaaaaare :) 17:38:48 (besides, you can just length-prefix it with a long long, the computer would run out of memory before it ran out of length prefixes) 17:39:05 or, if you prefer, prefix with a pointer to the last element 17:39:14 it's clearly in memory, therefore it can be pointed at 17:39:15 problem solved 17:39:21 i prefer to live in a world of infinite memory 17:39:34 ehird: then you have infinite pointers 17:39:37 problem still solve 17:39:40 *solved 17:39:45 meh, fine 17:40:08 ais523: but then I have to use VLAs. 17:40:22 v 17:40:23 typedef struct { 17:40:23 BLOCK_TYPE *last; 17:40:25 BLOCK_TYPE data[]; 17:40:27 } *biguint; 17:40:45 that's not a VLA 17:40:50 that's the legalised struct hack 17:40:58 oh, right 17:41:05 ais523: that's c99 only isn't it 17:41:06 :( 17:41:07 and you can just put a 1 in the square brackets on C89, there's no known system on which the original struct hack doesn't work 17:41:12 ah 17:41:16 despite it being technically illegal 17:41:21 I've mostly seen it as data[0] 17:41:27 ehird: that's a gcc-ism 17:41:27 to emphasise the hack 17:41:31 ais523: is it? ok 17:41:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:41:56 hmm 17:42:03 wouldn't an infinite-pointer system have infinite unsigned longs too? 17:42:09 and thus no need for bignums... 17:42:11 probably 17:42:26 incidentally, C fails at handling sizeof infinite data types 17:42:35 ais523: my aversion of length counting's justification: http://jwz.livejournal.com/854482.html :P 17:42:37 I'm really annoyed that the definition of C excludes bignums 17:42:48 ehird: I don't like length counting for strings, normally 17:42:52 for bignums, though, it works a lot better 17:42:52 not for strings 17:42:54 read the post 17:43:43 c is a fucking macro assembler. no bigints there. 17:43:55 ehird: classic 17:44:09 that's just a flaw in their bignum implementation, though 17:44:13 ais523: why? 17:44:18 they didn't have a big enough length ehader 17:44:24 define big enough 17:45:17 The fifth season will commence on January 21, 2009 with a three-hour premiere consisting of a clip-show and two back-to-back new episodes. 17:45:20 woohoo 17:45:26 that's 3 days 17:45:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:45:46 wut 17:45:49 lost! 17:45:52 o 17:45:56 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:46:05 i didn't think i'd make it 17:46:12 3 more days 17:46:26 lol wut 17:46:28 and my life will have meaning again 17:46:52 lost? you know? as in tv? 17:47:39 yes. 17:47:40 i know. 17:47:43 I just had a crazy idea for how to implement an AI that would actually work, it is technically unfeasible though 17:47:50 AnMaster: no, it wouldn't work 17:48:11 ehird, simulate life exactly, I mean simulate evolution, from the start 17:48:18 in all details 17:48:26 that's not so much artitical 17:48:26 would require huge resources though 17:48:32 you couldn't do that 17:48:35 because you don't know the details 17:48:36 AnMaster: how do you know that intelligence would evolve before the extinction of life? 17:48:40 and you don't have nature's random number generator 17:48:51 ais523, you would have to do several runs of course 17:48:53 AnMaster: what you're saying is, 17:49:01 ais523, but given enough time it should work 17:49:06 the odds against intelligence may be incredibly high 17:49:08 "Here's an easy way to simulate intelligence: simulate everything!" 17:49:18 ais523, I said "technically unfeasible" 17:49:19 the fact that intelligence evolved here may have been a huge fluke 17:49:22 simulating intelligence is almost certainly easier than simulating everything 17:49:29 thus your solution is a non-solution, even with an infinitely powerful computer 17:49:42 but anywhere where the point will be brought up, there must be intelligences to ask the question 17:49:53 ais523, indeed. I said "technically unfeasible" and "given enough time" 17:50:05 Indeed, I'd rather just use genetic algorithms. 17:50:05 AnMaster: you could also brute-force intelligence. 17:50:14 that's both way easier to implement and about as efficient. 17:50:18 ehird: how would you detect it once you had it? 17:50:20 agreed 17:50:25 you could probably stack the dice a bit by ensuring there was something resembling earth geologically... 17:50:32 ais523: clone an infinite amount of people and have them talk with the iterations simultaneously 17:50:34 forever 17:50:45 (No harder than simulating the entire universe.) 17:50:49 ehird: being able to clone an infinite number of people would probably mean you could just outsource your intelligence 17:50:50 to them 17:50:57 That would not be artificial. 17:51:15 plate tectonics, the right elements and the right temperature is a good start i think 17:51:34 (recent Slashdot story: it seems some companies have been using Mechanical Turk to astroturf Amazon reviews of their products) 17:51:56 oerjan, well yes, but all written in rules of basic physics 17:52:17 I mean, quantum mechanics level or so, or you couldn't simulate all effects 17:52:44 of course that would require as near infinite resources as it makes no practical difference that it would in fact only be finite resources 17:53:07 you may not need to simulate more than the biosphere to full precision 17:53:26 oerjan, true, but probably not all of space 17:53:55 d'aww, while (printf("%lu\n", *n++)); wouldn't work 17:53:58 need to return *n 17:54:02 oerjan, I mean, relativity limits speed of information 17:54:05 while (printf("%lu\n", *n++), *n); 17:54:06 good enough 17:54:14 so only the visible universe at the end of the simulation 17:54:37 oh you could probably fake it, no one would notice if the stars were made of paper ;) 17:55:50 anyone, anyone up for the task of calculating much computer resources this would need? 17:56:20 AnMaster: er i said "you may _not_ need". did you read me backwards? 17:56:43 oerjan, oh indeed I must have done 17:57:15 also, you could stack the dice even more, you could probably get a simple cell in there 17:57:35 "stack the dice" I never heard that idiom before 17:57:53 oerjan: stack the deck, surely? 17:57:59 oh 17:58:00 anyway, going for a while, I need to get dinner 17:58:00 right 17:58:02 i suppose it would be less effort to build a new biosphere than simulating one 17:58:05 -!- ais523 has quit. 17:58:11 and what does "stack the deck" mean? 17:58:28 "to arrange something in a way that is not fair in order to achieve what you want" 17:58:38 also, what a shock they would get when they realise that they are simulated 17:58:44 as the universe is kinda efficient in "emulating" stuff in itself. 17:59:02 AnMaster: well maybe. _we_ could be simulated. 17:59:11 oerjan, yes I was thinking about that too 17:59:23 actually it's more likely that it's just me being simulated :) 17:59:27 it could be simulations all the way up :D 17:59:33 and you all consist of paper 17:59:48 AnMaster: they wouldn't realise they were simulated. 17:59:49 oerjan, augh! 17:59:55 you'd get religions, and atheists. 18:00:10 and some fringe ones arguing they're all simulated, dismissed as kooks. 18:00:13 ehird, what if we planted a message, like that that book, Strata 18:00:20 by T. Pratchett 18:00:21 you mean like the bible 18:00:35 ehird, I mean like in Strata by T. Pratchett 18:00:45 I have not read it./ 18:00:47 ah ok 18:00:57 well 18:01:09 since it is Pratchett, it is kind of hard to make a short plot summary 18:01:13 as you surely can imagine 18:01:37 i'm sure there's one on wikipedia :D 18:01:45 anyway, it'd almost certainly go on exactly as the religious situation in this world goes on. 18:01:58 if you were extremely blatant, probably they'd die of shock, or rebel against you. 18:02:27 ehird: well that is assuming there _is_ no actual divine input to the world's religions. 18:02:36 (this world's) 18:02:53 as is my belief :-) 18:03:09 yes. but that is not the same as "almost certainly". 18:03:18 naturally. 18:03:33 but christianity could well be truly divinely influenced, doesn't mean people take it any more seriously 18:04:32 * ehird *CONTRAVARSY* 18:05:13 aight, I'll length count. 18:05:15 Humans in the book have advanced to terraforming other planets and so on, to increase biodiversity. After some thousand generations before getting to space flight the emigrants tend to forget that they came from elsewhere. Something like that. However, sometimes the machine operators leave some (unauthorised) clues when terraforming. Like a fossile of a dinosaur holding a sign saying "Stop nu 18:05:15 clear war".... And well in the end the protagonists find out that the universe they live in was constructed. Thanks to a clue left in it. 18:05:16 now to incrementerament 18:05:28 that clue was a flat world. This work iirc pre-dates disc world 18:05:33 18:05:39 * ehird shrug 18:05:43 It's fiction. 18:05:48 ehird, yes of course 18:06:01 but it would be so cool if it wasn't ;P 18:09:31 ugh, there should be a realloc that forces in-placeness 18:12:51 :( my bui_mod_incr doesn't work 18:14:02 Algorithm: replace all vowels except I and Y with A. 18:14:30 Eh, leave silent E as well. 18:14:55 Actually, leave all E's. 18:15:49 ^bf ++++++++++>++++++++[->++++++++<]>++++++>++++++[[->+>+<<]>>[-<<+>>]<[-<<.>>]<-<<<.>>>] 18:15:50 FFFFFF.FFFFF.FFFF.FFF.FF.F. 18:16:19 I assure you that this is all part of my evil plan. 18:16:25 how assuring. 18:17:02 GEARGE W. BASH WILL STAP BARACK ABAMA FRAM DESTRAYING AAR CAANTRY! 18:17:17 Proto: Eliminate consonants. 18:17:58 eoe u i o aa aa o eroyi ou ouny! 18:18:38 WHAT IS THE PAINT AF THIS? 18:18:52 ugh, there should be a realloc that forces in-placeness <-- that is not possible in practise since there could be other stuff allocated after 18:18:58 who cares 18:19:00 write over it 18:19:01 :D 18:19:22 ehird, why not just check the return value? 18:19:47 because your face 18:20:12 that made no sense, not even grammatically 18:20:29 neither does your face 18:20:35 what he said 18:20:40 oerjan, that made sense grammatically 18:20:43 because *you're* face 18:20:44 so wrong 18:20:47 I sint re soud dsust retrace arr tonsonants ris arzeorar tonsonants. 18:20:49 that's a common mistake 18:21:04 oklopol, heh... 18:21:13 arzeorar? 18:21:14 that make no sense either 18:21:32 Alveolar. 18:21:44 oklopol: ssh, it's a secret that AnMaster is Mr. Potato Head 18:21:49 kerlo, what is the substitution? c->t I see 18:22:01 sometimes? 18:22:11 oerjan, who? 18:22:29 but good thing it isn't telnet at least 18:22:31 AnMaster: a famous face 18:22:37 kerlo: scarily, that worked 18:22:49 * AnMaster hopes someone gets that bad pun 18:23:01 AnMaster: nope 18:23:06 i did. 18:23:08 oh 18:23:22 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----### 18:23:29 * AnMaster dodges 18:23:44 ehird: what worked? 18:23:51 kerlo: consonant replacing 18:24:54 isn't l alveolar? 18:24:55 ehird, anyway there might be a way to handle the realloc() issue 18:24:59 if you tell me why you need it 18:25:14 i dont 18:25:14 :P 18:25:21 but my increment doesnt work :((((((( 18:25:24 ehird, well it seems to be linux specific anyway 18:26:26 Glibc specific? :-> 18:27:01 Ilari, linux kernel specific I think 18:27:08 at least that is what the man page says 18:27:27 AFAIK, the memory allocation functions Linux kernel implements are brk() and mmap(). 18:27:43 basically: mmap with MAP_FIXED (and possibly MAP_GROWSDOWN), then mremap (possibly using MREMAP_FIXED, not 100% sure about that) 18:27:43 And also mremap(). 18:28:06 P becomes T, B becomes D, T remains T, D remains D, CH becomes TS, J becomes DZ, K becomes T, hard G becomes D, F becomes S, V becomes Z, soft TH becomes S, hard TH becomes Z, S remains S, Z remains Z, SH becomes S, "zh" becomes Z, H becomes S, M becomes N, N remains N, NG becomes N, L remains L, R remains R, W becomes R, Y becomes R. 18:28:24 So yeah, "alveolar" becomes "alzeolar", not "arzeolar". 18:28:34 kerlo, that isn't loseless, also how did you decide on this scheme? 18:28:48 All consonants become alveolar. 18:28:59 * AnMaster googles alveolar 18:29:25 Unvoiced glottal fricative becomes unvoiced alveolar fricative, voiced bilabial stop becomes voiced alveolar stop, etc. 18:29:38 AnMaster: Process memory maps are available, so one can check if there's gap after current allocation... 18:29:44 Whap aboup mapim ip wabiw imfpeab? 18:29:53 *wabiaw 18:30:07 That sounds really fun. 18:30:14 kerlo, huh. I might understand that better if translated to Swedish 18:31:07 Unvoiced glottal fricative becomes unvoiced alveolar fricative, voiced bilabial stop becomes voiced alveolar stop, etc. <- I understood the words "(un)?voiced", "stop", "becomes" and "etc" in that 18:31:20 Well, they're all phonetic terms. 18:31:28 ^bf <. 18:31:31 kerlo, well I don't know much about that 18:31:35 FireFly, it wraps 18:31:37 Ustemda glottala frikativer bliver ustemda alveolära frikativer ;D 18:31:38 Ah 18:31:48 oerjan, no less understandable :P 18:32:04 FireFly, 1000 or 10000 cells iirc 18:32:09 read the source for details 18:34:28 http://boinkor.net/misc/terrible-xml-error.png 18:34:59 technomadic? NOMADS? 18:35:03 ehird, and funny 18:35:11 *ostämda, i think 18:35:26 oerjan, that is why I use an electrical piano :P 18:35:42 *facepalm* 18:36:10 oerjan, so not so bad it is good this time? :( 18:37:22 it's surreal 18:37:34 oerjan, oh? 18:37:41 how do you mean 18:38:49 my brain cannot grasp how that comment leads from mine, even as a pun :D 18:38:59 *follows 18:39:23 oerjan, you know an instrument needs to be tuned? 18:39:28 well that is stämma in Swedish 18:39:38 and, ostämda, would be non-tuned 18:39:42 or in need of tuning 18:39:55 you don't need to tune an electrical piano :P 18:40:04 * ehird evacuates the building -> 18:40:09 oerjan, maybe it doesn't work in Norwegian? 18:40:10 come on, get away from the dangerous AnMaster, everyone 18:40:16 terrible pun situation, let's get this under control 18:40:19 everyone out in an orderly fashion -> 18:40:21 * AnMaster joins ehird 18:40:27 lets get out of here 18:40:29 oh it works all right. it just doesn't make sense. 18:40:30 * ehird squirts AnMaster with funny juicde 18:40:33 *juice 18:40:37 come on everyone -> 18:40:39 tastes nice! 18:40:43 * AnMaster follows 18:40:48 * ehird bats AnMaster with a cluebat 18:40:49 -> 18:41:02 ehird, Always were a hard hat on irc 18:41:05 that is what I always say 18:41:07 want one too? 18:41:12 * AnMaster hands ehird a nice hard hat 18:41:16 * ehird puts AnMaster in a cage 18:41:17 -> 18:41:40 ehird, hey good thing I was Houdini in a previous life! 18:41:48 (and good thing I believe in reincarnation) 18:41:55 * ehird kills AnMaster 18:41:59 How? 18:42:01 now we don't need to evacuate! 18:42:08 ehird, how would you kill? 18:42:13 some sort of weapon or such 18:42:13 AnMaster: funny-clue-giving-machine 18:42:17 you're allergic to it 18:42:30 ehird, ah good thing I took the medicine this morning then 18:42:31 :) 18:42:36 no, there is no cure 18:42:39 * AnMaster walks out of the exit 18:42:43 source: channel logs 18:42:47 yay out of the building 18:42:52 crap 18:42:56 * ehird turns on the lhc, targets at AnMaster 18:43:02 now what was it that was so dangerous in there? 18:43:05 * AnMaster dodges 18:43:16 ehird: but you're already a black hole, remember? 18:43:18 [black hole expands to be as big as anmaster and everywhere at once] 18:43:27 * ehird turns off LHC just as AnMaster is sunk in. 18:43:31 only a few million casualties. 18:43:32 oerjan, no I dodged fast enough 18:43:43 also that was debunked, see snopes or something 18:43:57 or maybe busted, in that case see mythbusters 18:44:03 snopes is clearly one of the men in black 18:44:14 don't believe everything he debunks 18:44:16 oerjan, then mythbusters clearly 18:44:33 yes, they too 18:44:47 sure about not believe, but no they aren't MIB 18:44:55 the SNMP protocol would simply reject them 18:44:59 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:45:16 * AnMaster certainly hopes no one find that funny 18:45:26 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:45:46 i might be hurting you now if i knew the acronyms without looking them up 18:46:05 oerjan, first hit on google is "Management information base", used in the SNMP protocol 18:46:32 clearly anmasterful joke 18:46:46 oerjan, and yes I like making bad puns, it is like you know, the counter weight continent 18:46:56 someone need to balance your good puns 18:47:06 or the channel will tip over 18:47:16 you mean some day the bad puns will create that black hole out of sheer weight? 18:48:07 oerjan, no, I mean without me you would be a white hole just throwing out more and more puns until everyone in here died of laughing, as it is I'm kind of balancing this 18:48:45 O_o 18:49:11 everyone walk away from the crazy man -> 18:49:24 :D 18:49:38 which one? the channel is full of them 18:49:52 oerjan, exactly 18:49:53 AnMaster: 18:50:05 ehird, well you are worse, you talked a lot about TIME CUBE 18:50:13 shut up, stupid academic 18:50:46 oh you are a bit untrained, you forgot upper case 18:51:31 time cube is not all uppercase. 18:52:15 ok true 18:52:19 but it is very large font 18:53:21 hm seems he updated it? 18:56:24 time to beat AnMaster at this joking game 18:56:25 "ehird: come on everyone ->" 18:56:28 OKAY 18:56:32 * oklopol comes on everyone 18:56:40 bravo 18:56:42 oklopol, :D 18:57:03 wait, AnMaster going :D at a sex joke? 18:57:06 what is the world comingt o 18:57:08 ehird, sure 18:57:10 coming to 18:57:11 HURF HURF HURF 18:57:18 aha 18:57:19 yes 18:57:21 ahah* 18:58:02 by the way, this is the pinnacle achivement of mankind today: http://music.metafilter.com/2943/Runnin-With-The-Songsmith 18:58:45 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:00:48 ehird, where is the actual music on that link? 19:00:55 enable flash :\ 19:01:00 wait 19:01:04 an mp3 link might be in the html source 19:01:05 let me look 19:01:12 AnMaster: also, 'music' is a bit rich 19:01:24 AnMaster: http://music.metafilter.com/music/DevilAudio.mp3 19:01:36 ehird, well I did enable all scripts, and I don't see any such "missing plugin box" 19:01:36 aha 19:01:37 thanks 19:01:42 cover your ears 19:02:02 ehird, ouch 19:02:31 the song sounds like it should fit some sort of rock or possibly metal music 19:02:36 and that music doesn't fit 19:02:40 eww 19:02:44 read the post 19:02:46 yes 19:02:50 it's this: 19:02:56 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tpX3NhpRGdE&feature=related 19:02:57 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 19:02:58 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 19:03:02 's vocal track, put into: 19:03:10 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3oGFogwcx-E 19:03:18 which is a hideous abominatory microsoft creation 19:03:25 ARGH! 19:03:30 AnMaster: it makes music 19:03:31 from vocals 19:03:40 the advert is linked to is simply hilarious 19:03:41 no it doesn't 19:03:47 it makes *sound* from music 19:03:47 AnMaster: it _attempts_ to 19:03:48 err 19:03:50 :D 19:03:51 sound from singing 19:03:53 yes 19:03:58 ehird, but I say it doesn't make music 19:04:19 well, it arguably improves van halen. 19:04:39 I haven't listened to original yet 19:04:43 will do shortly 19:05:00 i don't think anyone can listen to such an abomination all the way through 19:06:03 ehird, the original is about as horrible in fact 19:06:05 but in a differen 19:06:08 different way 19:06:15 okay, now watch the songsmith advert :-D 19:06:19 unless you've already seen it 19:06:27 is it same as http://music.metafilter.com/music/DevilAudio.mp3 ? 19:06:41 no... 19:06:44 :-P 19:06:49 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3oGFogwcx-E 19:06:53 the official from-microsoft advert 19:06:55 also how come youtube didn't remove audio from the original? 19:06:58 surely that is copyrighted 19:07:12 AnMaster: they tried to, but everyone they sent to do it died of hearing it before they could mute it 19:08:06 AUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 19:08:32 don't give up! 19:08:34 ehird, I can't watch more than 30 seconds of it 19:08:35 it gets better as it goes 19:08:39 where better means worse 19:09:37 will anyone actually buy it? 19:09:42 I don't think so 19:10:02 i checked their forums, people were actually asking when it could be bought in non-US places 19:10:03 x_x 19:10:16 oh no 19:10:29 ehird, I mean compared to this even rap is good 19:10:32 in the future, all music will be made with songsmith. 19:10:37 musicians will be obsolete. 19:10:47 then, the vocalists for it will be replaced with Microsoft Sam text-to-speech. 19:10:53 The lyricwriters? markov chains. 19:11:03 ehird, good thing I have some good old style gramophone records with classical music on them then 19:11:12 AnMaster: they will be outlawed. 19:11:23 ehird, actually, feeding Ms Sam into that would be interesting 19:11:25 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:11:30 I wonder what the result would be 19:11:32 hi ais523 19:11:34 hi AnMaster 19:11:37 and wb me 19:11:41 AnMaster: well, microsoft sam doesn't exactly do any intonation 19:11:53 ehird, yes so what will songsmith do with it I wonder 19:12:08 play the same chord over and over again? 19:12:14 possibly 19:12:49 anyway this product won't lower the overall music quality of the world. Because it doesn't count as music 19:13:00 oh no, SongSmith? 19:13:09 ais523: we're talking about feeding microsoft sam into songsmith. 19:13:26 with text from markov chains. 19:13:36 ehird, also how the heck does it handle when the person singing don't know how to sing properly, I mean can't "find the notes" or whatever you say in English 19:13:40 actually, that could count as good piece of art-music, possibly. like, sarcastically. 19:13:40 oh dear 19:13:44 will it retune to a different freq on demand? 19:13:53 AnMaster: probably it tries to correct it when making the chords 19:13:54 most likely, 19:13:59 it'll produce more awful crap 19:13:59 ehird, oh yes modernistic music, sure it would work as that 19:14:09 AnMaster: it just produces bad music, it does that even with people who can sing I expect 19:14:20 SongSmith may turn out to be an even worse idea than Microsoft Bob 19:14:25 ais523: have you seen 19:14:28 ais523, someone fed some rock vocalist into it 19:14:30 music.metafilter.com/music/DevilAudio.mp3 19:14:34 yeah, what AnMaster said :-P 19:14:34 it produced something totally different 19:14:39 yeah that link 19:14:40 van halen vocals + songsmith = http://music.metafilter.com/music/DevilAudio.mp3 19:15:01 they didn't even set the bpm correctly, they just set the "happy" slider at full 19:15:02 :D 19:15:19 ehird, well, it arguably improves van halen. <-- no... equally bad before and after 19:15:41 AnMaster: i can listen to the songsmithed version all the way through, not the original 19:16:09 that is because the original has video too 19:16:14 ah. good point. 19:16:23 -!- join has joined. 19:16:24 if you hide that it isn't so bad 19:16:30 hi join 19:16:35 where's part? 19:16:38 someone who has it should pipe a few Fugue programs into it 19:16:41 hi Slereah 19:16:49 ais523, none of us has it 19:16:56 and htf did Slereah hit on an obvious non-registered nickname? 19:16:59 there's a 6-hour demo, AnMaster 19:17:00 ais523, also what is Fugue? 19:17:09 AnMaster: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fugue 19:17:24 ehird, of songsmith? 19:17:27 AnMaster: yes 19:17:32 i could boot up windows and download it, I guess. 19:17:51 ehird: as in, you only get to use it for 6 hours? 19:17:51 ehird, well not an issue since you could take a snapshot before and reset it after 19:17:55 ais523: yes 19:18:00 AnMaster: yes 19:18:02 that's a ridiculously short free trial 19:18:07 they're normally 30 days 19:18:13 ais523, enough to decide "I hate this" 19:18:17 ais523: yeah but it's songsmiht 19:18:20 all you do is sing then listen. 19:18:41 AnMaster: I told you about the free trial GPL program a while back, didn't I 19:18:43 if it was any good, 3 hours of listening to it (3 hours of singing in...) would be enough to decide, probably 19:18:44 that was really silly 19:18:52 ais523, what one was it? 19:18:55 AnMaster: a compiler 19:18:57 based on gcc 19:19:05 ais523, well sounds familiar 19:19:07 I just looked at the source, then replaced the licence manager with hello world 19:19:11 AnMaster: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/fugue/src/hworld.mid 19:19:19 I wrote that 19:19:22 and I like it 19:19:22 well 19:19:26 I like it too 19:19:28 that is music, not song? 19:19:32 if you can't play mids, I have an ogg version lying around somewhere over here 19:19:34 so it wouldn't work in songsmith 19:19:40 AnMaster: no, you can put instruments in it too 19:19:40 ais523, I can, I have hardware midi 19:19:43 and it tries to match it up 19:19:54 AnMaster: I have software midi, it's pretty good apart from taking up 40% of my CPU 19:20:11 someone should put a fast & complex electric guitar solo in there and see what it does t o it 19:20:11 ehird, oh, I wonder what will happen if you use, say "Spring" of Vivaldi as input 19:20:21 AnMaster: i think it kills the program. 19:20:26 like, in an actual 19:20:26 life 19:20:27 killing 19:20:30 way 19:20:36 ehird, I think the result will kill anyone listening 19:20:39 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:20:53 ais523, well I lack a good soundfont 19:21:06 ais523, a340 is ok-ish as a soundfont 19:21:11 but the piano really sucks 19:22:26 ais523, um? D-minor? 19:22:31 nah none existing one I think 19:22:45 but I quite like it, some atonality there too 19:22:50 AnMaster: it isn't in any particular key 19:23:00 it was in fact automatically generated by a BF->Fugue compiler 19:23:09 which was sufficiently nonportable that I believe it only runs on one computer 19:23:12 ok for auto generated it isn't too bad 19:23:20 ais523, oh? 19:23:32 AnMaster: it's a crazy story, actually 19:23:59 the compiler involved lots of different langs, including C, Prelude, Visual Basic, and a couple I invented specifically for the purpose 19:24:08 ais523, hm Fugue is massively concurrent isn't it? 19:24:18 the actual music entry was done by customizing the keyboard shortcuts of a proprietary MIDI editor 19:24:27 then sending it keyboard events using VB's SendKeys 19:24:41 and no, it isn't, it has a fixed number of threads which have to run in step 19:24:53 it's more like having a lang where each command always does a large number of finite things 19:25:11 ais523, was the compiler gc? (Goldberg Compiler) 19:25:29 I wrote everything in the chain myself, except the proprietary midi editor 19:25:44 ais523, why so complex 19:25:47 I actually used to be pretty good at VB once, surprisingly 19:25:51 but I rarely use it nowadays 19:26:02 and why so complex? because I didn't know how to generate MIDI by hand 19:26:16 um. specs? 19:26:27 ais523 my bignum kind of doesnt work :(((((((((((((((((((((((( 19:26:29 or maybe this was long ago? 19:26:50 AnMaster: post-2005 19:26:52 it was ages ago 19:26:53 since fugue is 2005 19:26:54 and specs of what? 19:26:59 ais523, of midi format 19:27:03 or some library for it 19:27:11 I don't know if there are any 19:27:15 ais523, also how comes it isn't very concurrent? just play a chord? 19:27:15 ais523: http://pastie.org/364042.txt?key=u3cqc6nuw91cp0cehfm5fg <-- the bui_mod_incr function doesn't work and I can't figure out why 19:27:24 and this is back when I didn't do any programming on Internet-connected computers 19:27:29 and you have a few threads, one per tone? 19:27:31 or not? 19:27:43 because I had only public terminals for that 19:27:48 and no, it isn't exactly a thread per tone 19:28:01 because multithreaded programs can have threads running at different rates, and doing control flow 19:28:11 when one line of music loops, every line loops, in Fugue 19:28:18 I don't know what that's called, but it isn't multithreading 19:28:23 um 19:28:35 ok 19:28:51 :\ 19:29:08 ais523, anyway there are no loops in midi afaik 19:29:13 no 19:29:17 every time i export a loop it ends up being expanded 19:29:21 there are loops in Fugue, though, because it's a programming language 19:29:28 that's like saying there are no loops in ASCII, so C can't have loops 19:29:38 ais523, right, but how would you encode it in midi 19:29:48 oh a special note? 19:29:50 AnMaster: by using the loop-start and loop-end instructions 19:30:01 just like you encode loops in C by using while or for or goto 19:30:05 ais523, did you ever do something like "play as it runs"? 19:30:12 AnMaster: no, that wouldn't be particularly interesting 19:30:24 :s 19:30:29 ais523, oh? it would include listening to the loops 19:30:31 you would just get the bits inside the loops again and again 19:30:36 which are only a few notes long 19:30:39 oh right 19:30:52 and besides, due to the BF-like arithmetic the loops are going to be running around hundreds of times 19:30:57 so it's going to get on your nerves 19:31:21 oh idea: "Variations of hello world", which should keep the same output (printing hello world a few times) but sound a little different each time 19:31:35 AnMaster: there were random numbers involved in the compiler 19:31:43 I actually have a second hello world in Fugue, but it isn't as good 19:32:09 ais523, also midi doesn't actually encode tempo? Just the length in ms or something 19:32:20 so how can the interpreter know what a fifth is or such 19:32:32 AnMaster: tempo has nothing to do with intervals 19:33:10 actually, MIDI itself isn't a file format, but a communications format 19:33:13 ais523, well, quater note = 180 or quater note = 120 would end up different in midi, and iirc midi doesn't store any "metronome values" 19:33:24 AnMaster: quarter notes have nothing to do with fifths, the interval 19:33:36 a fifth goes up from C to G, or C# to G#, or D to A, and so on 19:33:39 hm? then I mentally mistranslate 19:33:42 oh right 19:33:44 ais523: you should look at my bignum :-D 19:33:49 and MIDI does store some metadata, such as the time signature 19:33:51 ais523, yes that would make more sense 19:34:12 ehird: why are you using goto? 19:34:22 eh, why no 19:34:22 t 19:34:23 :D 19:34:33 i thought about the algorithm in terms of a goto, so that's how I wrote it 19:35:00 the algorithm looks correct 19:35:07 in what way does it fail? 19:35:18 % cc -Wall -m64 -ansi bignum.c; ./a.out 19:35:18 1 19:35:19 18446744073709551615 19:35:21 1 19:35:24 that's the full output 19:35:25 :\ 19:35:32 chops off everything after the length and then does nothing more o_O 19:36:41 there's something seriously wrong with that 19:36:47 unless the IRC server clipped a newline 19:36:52 was there a double-newline in the actual output? 19:38:33 oh, ys 19:38:34 yes 19:38:37 it was my client stripping that 19:38:40 where? 19:38:46 before the last 1 :_) 19:38:48 :-) 19:39:01 that's easy enough to explain 19:39:04 *m was 0 19:39:07 so you broke out of the loop 19:39:12 your print routine is incapable of printing a zero 19:39:12 oh, duh 19:39:21 sorry, I forgot to make it account for the length-change 19:39:25 instead of the null-termination 19:40:27 -!- kar8nga has quit (Connection timed out). 19:41:06 ehird, how comes you are using a length instead of a zero terminated one? 19:41:17 AnMaster: I persuaded him to 19:41:18 because ais523 argued with me about it and told me to. 19:41:23 heh. 19:41:23 ah 19:41:24 it's a lot faster for bignums 19:41:29 because it fits what the architecture is doing 19:41:30 yes I can imagine 19:41:45 you can add two numbers just with add/add-with-carry/add-with-carry, etc 19:41:55 ais523, in a simple for loop 19:42:06 unfortunately, C doesn't have a portable add-with-carry instruction, but given that ehird's going for speed I'm sure he won't mind rewriting that bit in asm 19:42:17 I am not going for speed 19:42:20 i've told you this 5000 times 19:42:20 ehird, oh btw ehird, for is usually faster than while with GCC, since it can optimise it better 19:42:22 this is just for fun 19:42:28 err you said you were before 19:42:33 yes, for the scheme impl 19:42:34 I'm 100% sure you said so 19:42:36 i'm just writing a bignum library for fun 19:42:38 AnMaster: no, where does that rumour come from? 19:42:46 ais523, oh the scheme one? 19:42:46 for and while translate to the same thing at the RTL level 19:42:50 as does goto, for that matter 19:42:53 AnMaster: no, the for faster than while thing 19:43:04 ais523, as in I observed it myself, profiling. 19:43:08 rewriting a loop can make it a lot faster 19:43:11 but not for that reason 19:43:15 ais523, for example it managed to vectorise a for loop 19:43:27 while not the equivalent while loop 19:43:51 ais523, and it managed to unroll some for loops but not the while loops 19:43:52 AnMaster: there is no difference apart from scoping between for(a=0; a<64; a++) {foo; } and a=0; while(a<64) {foo; a++} 19:44:08 as long as you have no continue statements inside the loop 19:44:12 ssh, let him have his placebo! 19:44:14 ais523, I belive the loop I tried on were a bit more complex, one was CRC for example 19:44:16 and I'm pretty sure gcc unrolls while loops 19:44:51 1 19:44:52 18446744073709551615 19:44:52 2 19:44:54 18446744073709551615 19:44:56 1 19:44:58 ok, that's an odd result... 19:45:00 should be 2, 0, 1 19:45:32 oh 19:45:43 ais523, well why they does gcc not vectorise any while loops in my experiments 19:45:47 but a lot of for loops 19:45:49 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:45:49 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:45:52 I'm using gcc 4.1.2 btw 19:45:55 yay, it works 19:46:09 int main(void) 19:46:11 { 19:46:11 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:46:11 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:46:12 int getchar(void); 19:46:14 int i=getchar(); 19:46:15 int c=0; 19:46:17 while(c<16) {i*=i; ++c;} 19:46:18 return i; 19:46:20 } 19:46:21 that loop was unrolled at -O3 19:46:24 into 16 multiply instructions 19:46:29 http://pastie.org/364057.txt?key=zpbkykzrv0q9xax847rpbw 19:46:40 ais523, and vectorised with -ftree-vectorize or whatever it is called? 19:46:47 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:46:47 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:46:51 maybe -fvectorize-tree 19:46:53 don't remember 19:46:53 AnMaster: just with -O3 19:47:00 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:47:00 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:47:05 I don't think this computer does vectorisation 19:47:10 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:47:10 but I'll try and see what happens 19:47:10 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:47:21 ais523, gcc doesn't vectorize without -ftree-vectorize 19:47:27 besides, that loop won't vectorise for obvious reasons 19:47:30 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:47:30 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:47:31 let me rewrite it as one that will 19:47:38 ais523, see also -ftree-vectorizer-verbose 19:47:40 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:47:40 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:47:50 it will tell you why it can/can't vectorise 19:47:53 -ftree-vectorizer-verbose=7 19:47:54 or so 19:48:17 some gcc versions segfault on that flag if too high, trying to print a null pointer 19:48:18 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:48:18 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:48:32 fixed in trunk 19:48:37 affects gcc 4.3 at least 19:48:43 cc1: error: unrecognized command line option "-ftree-vectorise" 19:48:49 ais523, how old? 19:48:55 gcc 3.x or what? 19:48:57 gcc (Ubuntu 4.3.2-1ubuntu11) 4.3.2 19:49:01 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:49:01 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:49:04 ais523, spell it amercian 19:49:06 it will help 19:49:09 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:49:09 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:49:15 american* 19:49:40 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:49:40 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:49:42 ais523, it helped right? 19:49:53 yes 19:49:56 wtf is up with kar8nga's connection, this is getting irritating 19:50:24 no it's not... 19:50:27 I haven't even noticed it 19:50:33 nowhere near moozilla levels yet 19:50:39 well, it didn't vectorise either the while or the for when I tested 19:50:40 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:50:40 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:50:40 ehird, a lot more often 19:50:43 as you see 19:50:49 AnMaster: no, my brain just filters it out 19:50:50 a.c:8: note: not vectorized: no vectype for stmt: D.1209_21 = i[c_44] scalar_type: int 19:50:53 why not ignore join/parts 19:51:01 "I'm irritated." "No you're not." 19:51:02 ais523, yes they depend on each other I believe 19:51:05 ais523, also try -march 19:51:07 to correct 19:51:11 like something with sse 19:51:19 or at least mmx 19:51:28 * kerlo tries to find ais523's lambda scoping example 19:51:29 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:51:29 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:51:32 AnMaster: what do you recommend? 19:51:43 ais523, well what cpu is it? 19:51:53 I don't care, I'm not actually planning to run the program 19:51:57 just compile to asm and read the asm 19:52:12 ais523, -march=core2 then? 19:52:13 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:52:13 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:52:36 AnMaster: ah, it vectorised both of them 19:52:43 ais523, anyway you can't vectorise that since all modify i 19:52:48 yes, I rewrote the program 19:52:58 ais523, it did? doesn't with older gcc 19:53:02 4.1.2 that is 19:53:20 int main(void) { 19:53:22 int getchar(void), i[16], c; 19:53:23 c=0; while(c<16) {c[i]=getchar(); ++c;} 19:53:24 c=0; while(c<16) {c[i]*=c[i]; ++c;} 19:53:26 for(c=0; c<16; ++c) {c[i]*=c[i];} 19:53:28 return i[getchar()]; 19:53:29 } 19:53:34 I'm not at all surprised, because the while and the for loop are completely synonymous 19:53:44 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:53:55 how the heck could that for loop be vectorised? it includes a function call 19:54:01 not the first one 19:54:07 loops 2 and 3 are vectorised 19:54:08 oh wait 19:54:10 which are equivalent 19:54:10 misread it 19:54:25 loop 1 is just there to prevent gcc constant-folding 19:54:27 by using user input 19:54:35 also, I apologise for the declarations line 19:54:42 that's legal C, and good for brevity, but very confusing 19:54:48 C-INTERCAL used it a lot before I fixed that sort of thing 19:55:05 "fix"? 19:55:06 you mean break 19:55:12 ehird: no, not really 19:55:20 writing int getchar(void); inside a function is legal 19:55:21 int getchar(void), i[16], c; <-- function prototype and variables in one? 19:55:22 but confusing 19:55:24 AnMaster: yep 19:55:27 ouch 19:55:32 Well, having written this silly lisp-bot, I think I'll try writing a serious one. 19:55:45 I bet you didn't even know that you can declare library function prototypes inside a lexical scope 19:55:49 because it's an insane thing to do 19:55:49 ais523, anyway using a volatile variable would have worked too 19:56:01 it is what I usually do 19:56:01 AnMaster: I doubt it, that would prevent the compiler vectorising 19:56:04 surely? 19:56:04 Is a volatile variable a variable that is capable of varying? 19:56:09 ais523, depends on where 19:56:13 yes for the first loop 19:56:16 but not for the rest? 19:56:19 if 19:56:21 kerlo: it tells the compiler that the variable might change unpredictably without it knowing 19:56:28 volatile int src; 19:56:31 normally, because you've given a pointer to it to an interrupt handler or to some other program 19:56:33 Interesting. 19:56:34 c=0; while(c<16) {c[i]=src; ++c;} 19:56:44 ais523, how would it affect the other loops? 19:56:54 kerlo: for instance, if you write volatile int i; i=1; i=2; 19:57:02 then the compiler will store both 1 and 2 in memory where i is 19:57:13 because volatile tells it not to get rid of redundant reads and writes 19:57:23 yes could be DMA or whatever 19:57:33 like a memory mapped char output 19:57:36 or a memory-mapped hardware register, I've used volatile for those before 19:57:43 ais523, yes exactly 19:57:57 the other thing volatile does is to tell the compiler to definitely not store the variable in a register 19:58:01 ais523, you wrote kernel stuff? 19:58:02 which is useful when messing around with longjmp 19:58:08 AnMaster: embedded stuff 19:58:11 aha 19:58:11 with no OS 19:58:20 right 19:58:33 volatile int eax __asm__("%eax"); 19:58:38 (actually works :-)) 19:59:00 ais523, actually it may still have to put it in a register, but it need to load/store it before/after 19:59:12 some arches may not be able to operate on stuff not loaded in registers 19:59:19 AnMaster: it may need to do things via registers, yes 19:59:28 but volatile tells it to reread the value whenever it's needed 19:59:33 ehird: yes, I know that works 19:59:38 I've written such before, for another architecture 19:59:42 i was talking to AnMaster before 19:59:45 errr 19:59:46 s/before/too/ 19:59:49 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:59:50 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:59:52 ais523, though I think add on x86 may take memory operands? 20:00:01 also 20:00:06 ais523: also 20:00:07 what does volatile int eax __asm__("%eax"); do? 20:00:08 if you're doing that 20:00:11 why not just write it as __asm__ 20:00:12 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:00:12 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:00:17 AnMaster: err that syntax is wrong 20:00:20 should be 20:00:26 volatile int *eax __asm__("%eax"); 20:00:31 AnMaster: then *eax reads the eax register 20:00:37 and *eax=...; sets it 20:00:42 (on x86) 20:00:45 :-D 20:00:47 ehird, ok, but what does volatile for it mean? that it may not be stored in a register? 20:00:59 AnMaster: well, %eax changes all the freaking time 20:01:05 yes true 20:01:05 it's just telling gcc to not try and be clever with it... 20:01:11 ah 20:01:24 ehird, the "must not store in a register" bit is confusing though 20:01:26 AnMaster: it's telling gcc that %eax might change when it does something that doesn't obviously change the variable 20:01:35 right 20:02:17 ais523, it obviously ignore the bit about the "not store in a register", I bet that it won't work with longjmp 20:02:33 also, could you pass this pointer around? 20:02:43 yes 20:02:45 or cast the pointer to an int? 20:02:45 also, no 20:02:47 AnMaster: it isn't a pointer 20:02:50 ais523: yes it is 20:02:55 int *eax means that eax stores an int* 20:02:55 it looks like that though 20:02:55 volatile int *eax __asm__("%eax"); 20:03:08 not that you can do &eax and get a sensible value 20:03:15 the variable has a pointer type, but it can't be pointed to 20:03:18 ah 20:03:19 well, yes 20:03:30 yes of course it can't work like that in the machine code 20:03:35 but 20:03:44 memory mapped CPU registers would be fun 20:03:53 My GCC info pages say "5.40.2 Specifying Registers for Local Variables -- You can define a local register variable with a specified register like this: register int *foo asm ("a5");". 20:04:04 I have heard of register mapped memory before 20:04:11 isn't that an overloading of "register", fizzie? 20:04:14 but the other way around, no 20:04:46 Well, wouldn't using "volatile int *eax __asm__("foo")" be an overloading of volatile? 20:04:54 fizzie, err I think that means that the register will be reserved for that variable 20:05:05 fizzie: no? 20:05:16 fizzie, which isn't same as "lets see what is in this register anyway" 20:05:55 Well, that's the only sort of "explicit register names for variables" I could find in GCC docs with a quick glance. 20:06:19 fizzie, but as far as I know the meaning is quite different 20:07:07 Well, it doesn't reserve the register for that value except for where it's live, but I guess it is a bit different. 20:07:56 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:08:22 I just can't find in the docs any references to "here's how you declare a variable which will read whatever eax is, but not reserve eax if you store something in it". 20:08:48 Puff of cream. 20:08:49 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:09:00 fizzie: that's not done via a variable, I think 20:09:13 you want to give an asm command with a constraint to read eax without reserving it 20:09:33 OTOH, if you do that, there's quite a chance that the compiler will put the variable you're trying to copy to in eax, to save a command 20:10:35 Yes, well, if that's the case, I don't see how that "volatile int *eax" thing is different. It sounds like it would just tell GCC to explicitly use the eax register for storing values stored in that variable. 20:10:56 ais523, if you didn't do that then volatile makes no sense since it wouldn't change 20:11:14 fizzie: the question is, really, what exactly are you trying to do? 20:11:35 I'm trying to understand what you are speaking of. :p 20:12:01 And what that "volatile int *eax" was all about, since the only similar form I'm aware of is the "register int *eax asm("eax");" thing. 20:12:19 actually, doing it with register is more common IIRC 20:12:23 and I think that's the form I saw 20:12:25 hm. ok 20:12:55 that would make a lot more sense 20:29:47 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:29:47 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:30:10 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:30:10 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:31:09 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:31:09 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:31:26 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:31:26 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:31:44 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:31:44 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:32:23 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:32:23 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:33:20 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:33:20 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:33:59 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:33:59 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:34:18 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:34:18 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:34:59 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:34:59 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:35:16 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:35:16 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:36:04 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:36:04 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:36:21 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:36:21 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:36:49 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:36:49 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:37:24 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:37:24 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:38:02 hmm. 20:38:10 well, that's about 2/3 of a screenful of quitjoin spam 20:38:22 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:38:22 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:38:28 i suppose it depends on your screensize 20:39:00 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:39:01 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:39:06 1/1, says i 20:39:15 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:39:15 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:39:49 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:39:49 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:40:07 a screenful now, with only 4 lines interrupting it 20:40:22 now, banning someone for unintentional quitjoin spam is too much, I think 20:40:29 could we reverse-ban kar8nga? 20:40:33 to stop them parting? 20:40:35 that would also stop the spam 20:41:11 it's not part, it's quit 20:41:17 well, stop them quitting too 20:41:36 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:41:36 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:41:37 * oerjan swats ais523 -----### 20:41:45 ow 20:41:54 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:41:54 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:42:08 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:42:08 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:42:17 i would swat kar8nga, but he isn't here long enough at a time 20:42:27 Reminds me of that Hotel California song. "You can /quit any time you like / but you can never leave." 20:42:33 The reverse-banning, that is. 20:42:50 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:42:50 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:43:55 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:43:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:44:34 Maybe if I do a five-minute ban, his/her client will not try to rejoin after failing once. 20:44:37 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:44:37 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:44:45 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie. 20:45:03 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: +b kar8nga!*@*. 20:45:26 fizzie: shock! 20:45:28 actual op powers! 20:45:32 never do this again :-P 20:45:50 He is all powerful 20:45:54 Bow to him! 20:45:55 Also 20:45:59 * ais523 is op-striken 20:45:59 -!- join has changed nick to Slereah. 20:46:01 *stricken 20:46:08 *chicken 20:46:09 Slereah: how did you end up with the nick "join", anyway? 20:46:09 hey fizzie 20:46:11 op me! 20:46:21 ehird: you know how badly that went last time... 20:46:22 *thicken 20:46:31 ais523: yes, I wrote a bot to keep me an op :D 20:46:34 ais523 : You know when your nick is registered and you connect the server? 20:46:37 and lament de-opped it :'( 20:46:44 It puts "/nick" as your default line 20:46:49 oh 20:46:56 And I entered /join #esoteric 20:46:59 well, in that case I'm doubly-shocked that nobody has taken join yet 20:47:01 besides, mine doesn't 20:47:03 it just tries ais523_ 20:47:05 then ais523__ 20:47:11 then prompts, I think, in a dialog box 20:47:13 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -b kar8nga!*@*. 20:47:15 It's different, ais523 20:47:22 Because I actually stay Slereah 20:47:35 Because Freenode doesn't actually enforce registered nickls 20:47:39 oh, just joining with a nick registered by someone else 20:47:45 and Freenode does, but only on request from the nick's owner 20:47:56 you can tell NickServ to enforce your nick, but hardly anyone ever does 20:48:09 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie. 20:48:13 -!- Slereah has changed nick to moot. 20:48:16 :D 20:48:18 Bow! 20:48:29 go away, little girl 20:48:30 Hell, moot is actually registered! 20:48:36 fizzie: you deopped fizzie? What did they do wrong? 20:48:40 that was a moot question 20:48:47 -!- moot has changed nick to Slereah. 20:48:56 ais523: /me recalls deopping AnMaster in #ESO because he opped me without first asking for permission from an op 20:49:04 ais523: Senseless banning of poor, defenseless kar8nga. 21:03:44 It puts "/nick" as your default line <-- what client? 21:03:47 mine never does that 21:04:18 mIRC 21:04:19 probably 21:04:23 hm ok 21:04:28 mIRC, yeah 21:04:31 (mIRC is actually a good IRC client, despite being Windows software) 21:05:00 Or use Insurgent Sysreset, if you're an /i/nsurgent :D 21:05:34 21:05 Error(404): #twitter Your message is 142 characters long. Your message was not sent. 21:05:41 Stupid artificial restrictions 21:05:52 * AnMaster registers the nick join btw 21:05:59 hey 21:06:01 Oh you 21:06:01 that's not very nice 21:06:04 it's Slereah's 21:06:11 Slereah, he forgot to register it 21:06:15 so? 21:06:17 still jackassy 21:06:24 someone needed to register it 21:06:31 let Slereah, then 21:06:34 ehird, I waited several hours 21:06:40 and he didn't register it 21:06:40 and it isn't Slereah's nick really, Slereah made it clear that it was by accident 21:06:42 without telling him you were going to. 21:06:44 so his own fault 21:06:47 ... 21:06:50 you're an ass. 21:06:51 ehird, and? 21:06:55 no I'm not you are 21:07:00 you took otpbot 21:07:03 without telling me 21:07:09 ...otpbot was my name. 21:07:15 ehird, no it was mine, I wanted it 21:07:20 I didn't even realise there was an otpbot 21:07:21 same logic sorry 21:07:26 ais523, there isn't 21:07:27 I came up with otpbot _before_ you did. 21:07:30 he used optbot 21:07:31 in the end 21:07:35 So only "same logic" if you're an idiot. 21:07:38 Wait a second. 21:07:42 but I wanted it for otpbot as in Erlang/OTP 21:08:16 22:05 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- 1 failed login since Jan 18 21:05:10 2009. 21:08:16 22:05 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Last failed attempt from: Cats!n=92825d6c@Pantheon.Kanotix.com on Jan 13 18:10:37 2009. 21:08:18 interesting 21:08:25 * ais523 notes that tusho and ehird are different people according to NickServ 21:08:31 21:07 but I wanted it for otpbot as in Erlang/OTP 21:08:35 you wanted it _afterwards_ 21:08:35 (oh yes I own that nick, used it for a AYB joke) 21:08:44 whereas you only regisered join because you saw Slereah using it 21:08:45 ehird, I had plans long before 21:08:52 uh-huh. 21:09:05 that's about as verifiable as when i claimed I came up with the name cfunge first, AnMaster 21:09:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Connection timed out). 21:09:19 ehird, oh you admit then? 21:09:23 great 21:09:25 afk 21:09:36 bye, jackass 21:10:53 Thank goodness, VIP is here to guide you in these troubled times : 21:10:54 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers7/Take%20it%20easy.jpg 21:11:17 i'm not angry when I call people asses. 21:11:28 getting angry over assholes would be counterproductive 21:12:03 ehird, tell me, why are you so fond of donkeys? 21:12:15 Because of their huge penises 21:12:16 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 21:12:19 congratulations. you are the 1 billionth person to make that joke, AnMaster. 21:12:26 you win £-100. pay up. 21:12:33 ehird, alas no 21:12:48 ehird, I'm the 1 billionth + 1 person 21:13:01 x'DDDDD 21:13:03 you missed that one over there >> 21:13:09 GregorR? 21:13:17 Slereah, no, in the other room 21:13:17 * ais523 wonders about making a map of UseNet 21:13:19 *Usenet 21:13:21 Owait, now it points at fizzie 21:13:23 -!- MigoMipo has changed nick to QwertUiop. 21:13:32 Slereah: indecisive asses are the worst. 21:13:34 after all, we know that comp.lang.c++ is two rooms down the corridor on the left from comp.lang.c 21:13:36 -!- QwertUiop has changed nick to MigoMipo2. 21:13:43 there may be enough of those references to draw a map of the whole thing 21:13:55 ais523: wut? 21:14:02 ais523, what like alt.porn alt.porn.makes.no.sense (I forgot the details, it was something like alt.bin.whatever.sex-something.clinton iirc) 21:14:04 -!- MigoMipo2 has changed nick to MigoMipo. 21:14:09 * oklopol wonders what this usenet is everyone keeps referring to :P 21:14:12 or wait no 21:14:23 oklopol: you've never heard of usenet? 21:14:24 Usenet is where you use the internet 21:14:32 ais523: yes, tons of times. 21:14:37 ais523, alt.bin.pic.sex.parachute or such 21:14:42 I used to go to usenet, because the first French furry group was thar :o 21:14:43 because people keep referring to it 21:14:51 Usenet is pretty much shit, though 21:14:51 ais523, make whatever sense you want of that 21:14:53 oklopol: do you know how to access it? 21:14:56 I didn't check what it was 21:14:59 ais523: no 21:15:03 AnMaster: alt.binaries., surely? 21:15:05 How come most /b/tards are furries? 21:15:07 ais523, yes maybe 21:15:08 Hypocrites :-P 21:15:12 ais523, I don't use usenet a lot 21:15:16 oklopol: you can view it via groups.google.com 21:15:21 have a look at alt.lang.intercal some time 21:15:23 ais523, not the binaries 21:15:25 iirc 21:15:27 it's the esolang group, but it isn't very active 21:15:27 however 21:15:29 ehird : Remember the credo! 21:15:41 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers/1167175439619.gif 21:16:03 Usenet is the last bastion of the True Spirit of the Internet 21:16:13 even if there was that terrible accident where it got stuck in September 2003 21:16:19 *1993 21:16:22 What is the true spirit of the internet, ais523? 21:16:31 Slereah: being able to talk to other people about anything you want 21:16:35 without problems 21:16:40 Define "problems" 21:16:54 problems != flamewars 21:16:56 :P 21:17:02 well, you get flamewars on Usenet too 21:17:07 Yeah. 21:17:10 but nobody can be blocked from it, pretty much 21:17:32 the main tool for debate de-escalation there is the equivalent of /ignore 21:17:37 if you don't like what someone's saying, ignore them 21:17:40 ais523, btw, if you have ipv6, xs4all provides a good usenet read only server, very fast and very complete. Doesn't filter binary channels either. And it is at least available to users of the SixXS tunnel 21:17:41 and talk to the people you do like 21:17:43 not sure about other ipv6 21:17:54 http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Alt.tasteless 21:17:55 AnMaster: I don't, the computer's fine but the network here can't handle it 21:18:02 ais523, tunnel? 21:18:03 Why hello there, I am internet of the past. 21:18:10 that is what I use... 21:19:14 "In 1993, alt.tasteless members orchestrated one of the first forum invasions, in which rec.pets.cats (a newsgroup for cat-lovers) was mercilessly trolled." 21:19:29 before or after september/ 21:19:35 End of august :D 21:20:23 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 21:20:40 Slereah, where does it say that? 21:21:24 There's a link to the thread : http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tasteless/browse_thread/thread/3f265cf9ef49d3e1 21:21:45 Slereah, doesn't work for me, it refuses even when I click the 'yes i'm sure' button 21:21:55 That's because you are underaged 21:21:57 Noti boy 21:22:02 Google have been doing a lot of archiving of Usenet 21:22:02 Slereah, I'm not. 21:22:13 they even bought up all the Usenet archives from before they started 21:22:16 although I'm not entirely sure why 21:22:21 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 21:22:26 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:22:33 hmm... deja.com still redirects to groups.google.com, after all this time 21:22:46 deja.com? 21:22:50 wtf would that be 21:22:53 AnMaster: Usenet archivers 21:22:56 heh 21:22:59 they got bought out by Google 21:23:12 ais523, well how much would the domain cost google? relatively speaking 21:23:19 it isn't like they would notice 21:23:25 they got the domain free with the company 21:23:30 so they may as well maintain it, I suppose 21:23:34 ais523, well they have to renew it 21:23:38 in case anyone still wants to visit Deja's archives for some reason 21:23:57 or in case someone also got stuck in September 1993 and has only just come out of their coma 21:23:57 ais523, also I hope links still work 21:24:02 permanent url you know 21:25:11 http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Meow_Wars 21:25:12 :D 21:26:58 why are you linking to that horrible site all the time 21:27:18 You must face your demons, AnMaster 21:27:26 Slereah, ? 21:27:32 that sounds like a quote from something 21:28:04 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 21:28:40 It's a stock movie quote, AnMaster 21:28:48 It is not a quote of anything in particular 21:29:16 hm ok 21:29:19 that 21:29:25 *that reminds me 21:29:38 * AnMaster checks if there has been a new beta of that open source game yet 21:29:54 yes!, no activity for several months before, finally a new beta 21:30:39 Wait.... 21:30:43 That is no beta... 21:30:52 that is a 1.0 release! 21:30:52 :D 21:31:32 It is sad that the first association for any sentence of "that is no X" is the "that is no moon" thing. 21:31:45 fizzie, that was intentional 21:31:57 -!- FireFly has joined. 21:31:59 AnMaster: which game? 21:32:11 ais523, blob wars: blob and conquer 21:32:16 needs 3D acceleration 21:32:21 that's a pretty ridiculous name... 21:32:29 ais523, yes, but quite playable IMO 21:32:36 what genre? 21:32:59 ais523, well previous one was jump and run with guns. This one is third person shooter 3D 21:33:11 hmm... I don't generally play shooter games 21:33:20 ais523, and well if I played table top RPGs I would play Toons 21:33:21 I used to play platform games a bit, but rarely do nowadays 21:33:34 Saving to: `download.php?proj=blobAndConquer&file=blobAndConquer-1.05-1.tar.gz&type=zip' 21:33:36 -_- 21:33:43 that's quite a filename 21:33:53 yes 21:34:14 it reminds me of the dontcountme=s that used to be at the end of URLs on Wikipedia 21:34:24 ais523, what? I never seen that 21:34:27 also what was it for 21:34:27 to avoid triggering the page counters, which ignored URLs ending in s because they thought it was js or css 21:34:40 it wasn't on the actual pages, but on things that were XHRed via scripts 21:34:41 ais523, err 21:34:53 they have better counters now 21:34:57 based on sampling the HTTP logs 21:35:16 and JS which loads images a small percentage of the time, to avoid Wikipedia DDOSing its own servers 21:35:24 ais523, oh that reminds me... the main.css is included as main.css?164 21:35:25 when I look 21:35:28 on a wiki I run 21:35:31 any idea why? 21:35:35 that's an anti-cache-problems tool 21:35:37 since main.css is a static file 21:35:48 ais523, err I like clients to cache it 21:35:50 it may be static, but it can be changed by upgrades 21:35:52 since it is using a lot of my bw 21:35:56 clients are told to cache it aggressively 21:36:04 but if it changes across an upgrade, the 164 changes to 165 21:36:05 aha 21:36:07 so clients will get a new copy 21:36:11 right 21:36:18 the caching information is hidden in the URL 21:36:21 effectively 21:36:26 ais523, also where are they told to cache it aggressively? 21:36:33 in the HTTP headers, I think 21:36:36 since it is a static file 21:36:41 it would depend on server setup 21:36:49 yes, it dose 21:36:51 *does 21:36:54 and since it is shared hosting I have no control over that 21:36:59 but remember that MediaWiki was invented for Wikimedia, who do have control over that 21:37:02 nor did I see anything in mediawiki manual 21:37:12 ais523, I think it can be done in .htaccess 21:38:03 ais523, also ehird was surprised the supertux site had around 15k hits on images *per day* 21:38:10 if you know of that game 21:38:26 I've vaguely heard of it, but no more than that 21:38:30 don't even know what it's about 21:38:33 but the name strongly suggests Linux 21:38:38 ais523, super mario style 21:39:50 ais523, and I'm a developer on it. I talked to him about image hits because I was implementing anti-hotlinking since that was using quite some bw 21:40:14 based on referrer? 21:40:53 ais523, yes, and no blocking if empty referrer of course 21:40:58 and allowing google image search and so on 21:42:03 ais523, some people were linking screen shots, full size and then scaling it down to thumbnail in tag 21:42:21 AnMaster: and wasting their reader's bandwidth as well as yours 21:42:29 what's your anti-hotlink image? 21:42:52 ais523, a gif animation :D 21:42:54 let me link it 21:43:07 AnMaster: oh dear 21:43:12 I'm not sure if I want to look at it 21:43:12 ais523, http://supertux.lethargik.org/errors/img/nohot.gif 21:43:15 can you describe it? 21:43:26 ais523, too slow to cause epilepsy 21:43:28 haha awesome 21:43:30 ais523, only text 21:43:35 what does it say? 21:43:48 "Please don't hotlink\nimages from this site" 21:43:53 simple enough 21:43:59 so why the animation? 21:44:04 ais523, check it out 21:44:16 it is not shock pic 21:44:17 or such 21:44:26 and it won't cause epilepsy, it is too slow for that 21:44:52 ais523, well? 21:45:04 AnMaster: it's just such a pain for me to load images from IRC 21:45:15 ais523, ... 21:45:17 besides, I don't see the animation 21:45:18 I tried 21:45:21 ais523, just copy and paste to the browser 21:45:23 but my photo viewer prorgams don't show it 21:45:24 ais523, it inverts 21:45:38 I don't really like the colour scheme either, but I suppose that's the point 21:45:40 ais523, as in text and bg colors change place 21:45:46 every 5000 ms or something 21:45:57 err 500* 21:45:57 more like every second 21:45:59 probably 21:46:07 yeah 500 21:46:11 oklopol, I remember it was 5 and some zero 21:46:13 zeros* 21:46:49 ais523, also gimp will show both as layers 21:46:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:47:39 Lovely: "This game contains scenes of gore"* (* which can be switched off) 21:48:18 unreal tournament allows you to turn off the gore 21:48:23 like, in case you're a kid playing it or something :| 21:49:17 why are you linking to that horrible site all the time 21:49:22 ED is useful for internet culture. 21:50:02 wish it wasn't written in it 21:50:24 Why are you writing in that horrible language all the time? 21:50:32 FireFly, ? 21:50:39 AnMaster: What? FireFly: lol 21:50:57 Well, for others esolangs are pretty horrible.. I guess it's the same with ED 21:50:59 FireFly: which lang are you thinking of? 21:51:07 ah, I see 21:51:21 wish it wasn't written in it 21:51:24 can I have this in coherent form 21:51:26 ehird, basically ED is written in /b/tard style a lot of the time. I mean compare the language used if wikipedia would discuss "lol" and if ED would. 21:51:36 I haven't looked at the articles 21:51:48 "I WISH AN INTERNET CULTURE COMPENDIUM DIDN'T TALK IN AN INTERNET CULTURE-RELATED STYLE" 21:52:01 ED is useful for internet culture. wish it {ed} wasn't written in it {the style of that} 21:52:10 ehird, correct. 21:52:13 which is the most ridiculous complaint I've ever heard. 21:52:23 ehird, also all the shock pics 21:52:35 yeah. all the vast expanses of them. 21:52:46 * ais523 wonders if Wikipedia has an article on lol 21:52:48 I'd guess yes 21:52:54 ais523: it redirects to internet slang 21:52:59 makes sense 21:53:06 although teh gets its own article, IIRC 21:53:09 anyway, most non-nsfw-related ED articlse are sfw. Well, not safe for owrk but not offensive. 21:53:18 ais523, that should redirect to "the" 21:53:22 AnMaster: no, it doesn't 21:53:28 although there's a disambig header 21:53:29 ais523, I didn't say it did 21:53:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=teh 21:53:35 I said it *should* 21:53:36 the typo has enough of its life to deserve an article, AnMaster 21:53:40 the word has too much of its own culture 21:53:50 ehird, Not notable! 21:53:52 your own view of the way Things Should Be does not mean wikipedia shouldn't reflect reality 21:53:57 AnMaster: no, very notable 21:54:00 what you mean to say is, "I dislike it" 21:54:00 oh no, it has an image now 21:54:19 ehird, Missing reliable sources! Reads as advertisement! Is missing references! 21:54:26 "A typo on a poster." 21:54:38 ehird, also no 21:54:49 I was just imitating the style of wp 21:55:06 I'm not entirely convinced the image adds to the article 21:55:16 ais523, or that it is true 21:55:27 but then, it's reasonably common to drop a random vaguely-relevant image into an article in the hope of meeting GA criteria 21:55:50 "This image is of a poster, and the copyright for it is most likely owned by either the publisher or the creator of the work depicted. It is believed that the use of scaled-down, low-resolution images of posters " <-- um, so you can't take a pic of a cityscape containing any posters? 21:55:54 that would be fscked 21:56:19 I mean, it is public space 21:56:46 AnMaster: it depends on what it's a picture of 21:56:52 and which jurisdiction, and all sorts of things 21:57:00 ais523, like how much of the image it covers? 21:57:03 but you can't, say, take a photo of an advert and crop out the logo of the advertiser 21:57:16 copyright law is really complex and confusing 21:57:42 anyway, the general reasoning is to, on Wikipedia, avoid images which contain even a small amount of copyvio stuff, unless it's covered by fair use 21:57:52 because purely free-licensed images are fine 21:57:56 Heh, "purpose of use" field in the fair use rationale blob: "The spelling error in the image is unique and it depictures the Teh article's subject." 21:58:03 Yes, it is an unique spelling error. 21:58:16 a free-licensed image which depends on fair use for a few pixels is more debatable 21:58:25 because there are ways in which it can't be modified 21:58:36 fizzie: what's your opinion on "a unique" vs. "an unique"? 21:58:45 it's a unique... 21:58:53 I normally use "a unique", because the pronunciation of "unique" starts with a consonant, even though the word itself doesn't 21:59:06 an unique is incorrect, i've never heard anyone say that 21:59:14 I hear it quite a bit 21:59:49 My opinon is that I shouldn't have an opinion, being so very non-native speaker. And I would write it as "a unique", it's just that I caught myself only after the newline. 21:59:57 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:01:30 "a unique" 22:02:32 oklopol: i want oklotalk - - bot ;-) 22:02:35 in here ;-) 22:02:37 tonight ;-) 22:02:38 now ;-) 22:02:47 I blame the Finnish pronunciation where 'u' always sounds the same, and is always a vowel. 22:02:48 preferably written in something stupid 22:02:52 no 22:02:55 it already exists 22:02:55 :3 22:03:11 fizzie: most languages are more logical than English 22:03:13 -!- ehird has set topic: IRC IRC IRC. 22:03:14 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: IRC IRC IRC | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:03:18 maybe that's why English does so well... 22:03:21 ais523: do you like our auto-topic-setting? 22:03:27 yes, very much 22:03:38 it's the work of mizardx and I :D 22:03:43 -!- ais523 has set topic: IRC IRC IRC | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:03:53 * ais523 wonders if bsmnt_bot will add another 22:03:55 it doesn't do anything if the logs are already in the topic 22:03:57 apparantly not, though 22:04:03 that would have made for a really amusing botloop 22:04:03 wut 22:04:05 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric ** so you can do arty things like this. 22:04:12 bsmntbombdood: we taught bsmnt_bot to do this: 22:04:13 -!- ehird has set topic: aaaaaaa. 22:04:14 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: aaaaaaa | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:04:21 oh 22:04:22 bsmntbombdood: your bot has found itself a new usefulness 22:04:27 ^bf ,[.,]!Test 22:04:27 Test 22:04:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has set topic: aaaaaaa | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/penis. 22:04:46 hmm... we'll have to dig the BF-in-bsmnt_bot out of the logs 22:04:46 so much for useful 22:04:53 ^ aren't you glad you don't use a tinyurl one? 22:05:03 GreaseMonkey: ? 22:05:08 I have a copy, but all the whitespace got corrupted 22:05:16 and I don't think there's a way to automatically reconstruct it 22:05:17 because someone could always append to it and hijack it 22:05:28 this, incidentally, is what caused my hatred of Python 22:05:29 GreaseMonkey: ... what? 22:05:48 -!- ais523 has set topic: (a(:^)*S):^. 22:05:48 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: (a(:^)*S):^ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:05:50 ais523: unsurprisingly, Python is not optimized for entering code over IRC. 22:05:54 e.g if you had tinyurl.com/esolog and someone managed to take /esologs for something then yeah 22:05:58 crazy I know. 22:06:03 GreaseMonkey: how about they could just change the topic... 22:06:22 ^ul (a(:^)*S):^ 22:06:23 (a(:^)*S):^ 22:06:24 what if there were a bot? 22:06:30 GreaseMonkey: what? 22:06:37 ~bf ,[.,]!Test 22:06:50 like, a bot to autoappend some crap? 22:07:02 then we kick it. 22:07:38 ^bf >,[>,.]<[<]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[.>]!>,[>,.]<[<]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[.>] 22:07:38 ,[>,.]<[<]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[.>] 22:07:44 hmm... 22:08:02 ^bf >,[.>,]<[<]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[.>]!>,[>,.]<[<]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[.>] 22:08:03 >,[>,.]<[<]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[.>]!>,[>,.]<[<]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[.>] 22:08:09 ^bf >,[.>,]<[<]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[.>]!>,[.>,]<[<]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[.>] 22:08:09 >,[.>,]<[<]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[.>]!>,[.>,]<[<]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[.>] 22:08:12 that's better 22:08:20 even though it's cheating, really 22:10:31 that would have made for a really amusing botloop3 <-- happened yesterday 22:10:37 before they had it working 22:10:51 ehird: I think the point here was that since you can add any suffix to the log URL, if the bot it set to keep "tinyurl/foo" in the topic always it fails if someone gets "tinyurl/foobar" and sets that as the topic, without the bot adding the real URL. If you "just change the topic" you won't get rid of the real log URL. 22:11:08 oh. 22:11:14 well who cares, it's just for setting the topic easily 22:12:20 ChanServ could have a auto-append/prepend channel variables for that; there are 'topicappend' and 'topicprepend' commands, after all. 22:12:51 -!- MizardX has set topic: (a(:^)*S):^ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/foo. 22:12:52 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: (a(:^)*S):^ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/foo | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:12:54 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: (a(:^)*S):^ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/foo | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:12:58 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: (a(:^)*S):^ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/foo | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:12:59 geh... again 22:13:01 ... 22:13:02 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: (a(:^)*S):^ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/foo | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:13:06 sigh 22:13:06 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: (a(:^)*S):^ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/foo | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:13:07 MizardX 22:13:09 why did you eff with it :P 22:13:11 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: (a(:^)*S):^ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/foo | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:13:13 ~raw QUIT 22:13:16 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: (a(:^)*S):^ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/foo | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:13:16 ~exec self.raw("QUIT") 22:13:20 ~exec self.raw("QUIT") 22:13:21 -!- bsmnt_bot has set topic: (a(:^)*S):^ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/foo | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.. 22:13:22 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie. 22:13:23 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: +t. 22:13:24 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -t. 22:13:27 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit. 22:13:29 fizzie: it'll stop 22:13:30 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 22:13:30 there we go 22:13:47 Well, +t would've been quicker, maybe. Except that chanserv removed it since it's in the mlock. 22:13:55 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Client Quit). 22:13:59 it's intereseting to have a channel mlocked at -t 22:14:02 *interesting 22:14:07 ... come back, bsmnt_bot 22:14:09 ... 22:14:20 ... shit 22:14:42 fizzie: can i call you overlord while you're op? 22:14:59 oklopol: You can call me overlord whenever you want, I don't mind. 22:15:01 -!- fizzie has set topic: (a(:^)*S):^. 22:15:13 fizzie: i'll keep that in mind. 22:15:23 I just have to test that chanserv topicprepend thing, I want to see if it adds a separator or something. 22:15:41 -!- ChanServ has set topic: fancy! | (a(:^)*S):^. 22:15:43 bots are always the correct solution 22:15:48 -!- ehird has set topic: aa. 22:15:52 Failure 22:15:53 Heh, yes, it added that | there. 22:16:39 It's not an auto-append, though. I'm not sure what it is for, really. 22:17:43 fizzie: changing the topic when you aren't opped and the channel is +t 22:17:59 Right, I guess there's that. 22:18:14 hey, who wants to fix bsmnt_bot 22:18:18 not i 22:18:27 :< 22:18:30 i'm writing a irc bot wrapper in awk 22:18:32 :P 22:18:35 ouch 22:20:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 22:21:48 Heh, interesting typo: "/frop gizzie" 22:21:51 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie. 22:22:10 -!- AnMaster has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:22:19 fizzie: your hand was too far to the right 22:22:30 also 22:22:34 why this 22:22:45 I mean how hard could it be 22:22:54 ? 22:23:04 ais523: Maybe my keyboard was just too far to the left. It's not always my fault! 22:23:05 if (!substr(topic, "http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric") topic += "| http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric" 22:23:06 basically 22:23:08 well a space too 22:23:15 AnMaster: because we have to write it one line in python 22:23:21 ehird: that's easy enough 22:23:22 also, MizardX effed up the disconnection logic 22:23:27 right 22:23:27 so it's sitting there using up cycles 22:23:30 instead of reconnecting 22:23:41 ehird, kill it and restart it clean? 22:23:49 well k 22:23:55 -!- bsmntbombdood__ has joined. 22:24:00 just use the exec("""if !substr(topic, "http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric"):\n topic += "| http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric"\n""") trick 22:24:11 dc is the best irc client EVAR 22:24:14 that's how I wrote the BF interp in the first place 22:24:25 bsmntbombdood: dc the reverse-polish-notation calculator? 22:24:33 lol 22:24:47 i mean to say nc 22:24:52 hey bsmntbombdood__ 22:24:56 how do you start bsmnt_bot again 22:25:01 run start.sh 22:25:02 lol 22:25:08 does that start the chroot 22:25:15 iirc 22:25:30 ah, yep 22:25:47 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 22:27:17 I have in my logs a whitespace-fixed version of that bsmnt_bot brainfuck. Will test. 22:27:33 ~exec self.bf3="def bfarg(x,y):\n p=y.group(2)\n a=y.group(3)+unichr(0)\n o=''\n p=p+'!'\n t=[0]*30000\n i=0\n l=0\n while p[i]!='!':\n if p[i]=='[' and t[l]==0:\n c=1\n while c>0:\n i=i+1\n if p[i]=='[': c=c+1\n if p[i]==']': c=c-1\n if p[i]==']' and t[l]!=0:\n c=1\n while c>0:\n i=i-1\n if p[i]==']': c=c+1\n if p[i]=='[': c=c-1\n" 22:27:46 ~exec self.bf4=" if p[i]=='+': t[l]=t[l]+1\n if p[i]=='-': t[l]=t[l]-1\n if p[i]=='<': l=l-1\n if p[i]=='>': l=l+1\n if p[i]=='.': o=o+unichr(t[l])\n if p[i]==',':\n t[l]=ord(a[0])\n a=a[1:]\n i=i+1\n sys.stdout(o)\nself.register_raw(r'\S+ PRIVMSG (\S+) :~bf ([^!]*)!?(.*)',bfarg)" 22:27:53 ~exec exec(self.bf3+self.bf4) 22:27:54 where is bf1-2 22:27:59 ~bf ++++++[->++++++<]>. 22:27:59 $ 22:28:06 ~bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 22:28:06 . 22:28:12 ~bf +++++++++++++++++++. 22:28:12 22:28:21 ok, who wants to make it \nQUIT? :P 22:28:27 although you can easily do that with ~exec 22:28:28 ~bf ,[.,]!Hello, world! 22:28:29 Hello, world! 22:28:32 hey, someone make the callbacks persist 22:28:35 its irritating having them not 22:29:03 wow, one-line non-lambda based Python is really weird to read 22:29:06 even when I wrote it... 22:29:12 all those varying amounts of spaces 22:29:24 * ais523 thinks this is the only legitimate use-case they've ever seen for one-space indentation 22:30:45 what bsmnt_bot needs is bracism 22:30:57 def bfarg(x,y): { p = y.group(2); ... } 22:32:00 * ais523 wonders what a Python purist would say if they were watching this discussion 22:32:10 couldn't you just start with from __future__ import braces; ? 22:32:19 if it worked quickly enough, you wouldn't even need the newline after it 22:32:25 just a semicolon 22:32:42 :D 22:32:50 ais523: Pythoners are generally an assholish lot. 22:32:55 So are Schemers. 22:33:04 And Lispers in general; #lisp is awful. 22:33:38 use ACME::Pythonic; requires the one last semicolon after the statement, unfortunately 22:33:43 but you don't need any semicolons from then on 22:34:03 anyway, bracism is a nice little hack. I think I will now reimplement it. 22:34:07 ais523: Pythoners are generally an assholish lot. So are Schemers. And Lispers in general; #lisp is awful. <-- what about perlers? 22:34:21 I noticed the less sane the language is the nicer the people are in the support channels 22:34:23 AnMaster: Perlers are bathshit insane, but very friendly, apart from in #perl, where they keep the assholes. 22:34:37 AnMaster: and the INTERCAL support channel is very friendl 22:34:39 *y 22:34:42 even though it's mostly just me 22:34:42 ehird, we are all insane in here 22:34:49 and very friendly 99% of the time 22:34:59 Yeah, #esoteric is the nicest channel on IRC. 22:35:06 #haskell is about equal, though. 22:35:11 ais523, also you missed some awful puns I made today 22:35:13 I think that says something about Haskell. 22:35:21 ehird, haha 22:35:36 ehird: yep, I think Haskell is pretty insane too by common-language standards 22:35:41 but insane in a "wow, that's so elegant" way 22:35:54 Scheme is pretty esoteric, too. 22:35:54 ais523, yes, but lisp is kind of like that too IMO 22:35:55 :/ 22:35:59 Well. 22:36:03 * ais523 joins #vhdl, to see what they're like 22:36:04 Common Lisp is kind of unelegant. 22:36:08 ais523, tell us 22:36:10 *inelegant 22:36:12 however, it seems to be a mostly idle channel 22:36:13 ehird, that is true 22:36:19 ehird, elisp vs. clisp 22:36:21 which is worst? 22:36:22 I'm going to ask a question to see how they react 22:36:25 AnMaster: elisp 22:36:27 ais523: "Verilog questions possibly answered but only if we get a cookie (Remillard will answer Verilog questions for a Chipotle burrito.) " 22:36:29 sounds friendly 22:36:30 hm ok 22:36:43 ergh i can't figure out what i'm doing wrong 22:37:25 AnMaster: elisp is _dynamically scoped_ 22:37:28 that's hard to beat. 22:37:37 ehird, ok, but isn't bf too= 22:37:37 ? 22:37:40 I've asked a question which is "I'm doing insane thing X, what should I do instead?" 22:37:43 of course it got no scope 22:38:03 ais523, what is this insane thing? 22:38:14 AnMaster: using a for loop with one iteration to define a temporary variable 22:38:21 ais523, oh 22:39:16 A colon followed by whitespace followed by { opens a new block, unless we're in a {} block that wasn't a bracism block 22:39:20 (to allow {'foo': {...}}) 22:39:33 } ends a block if we're in a block and not a {} that isn't a block. 22:39:38 ; is newline-and-indent. 22:39:41 Hokay. 22:39:44 ehird, in what language? 22:39:50 Python. 22:39:53 It's for writing one-line python. 22:39:56 oh the source filter 22:39:58 no 22:40:00 just a library 22:40:02 no? 22:40:03 a bot in here used to have it 22:40:05 one I wrote 22:40:06 oh ok 22:40:11 it was great for irc 22:40:28 the basic rule is { is newline and increase indentation, } is newline and decrease indentation, ; is newline and maintain indentation 22:40:29 or should be 22:40:34 ais523: yes 22:40:36 but you have to detect when those characters are used for other things 22:40:38 but you have to deal with dictionaries 22:40:40 which are {...} 22:40:46 and semicolons inside strings? 22:40:50 yes 22:40:51 luckily, Python is easy to parse 22:40:52 thus my above rules 22:40:53 nc irc.freenode.net 6667 < /tmp/fifo | command > /tmp/fifo 22:40:56 why isn't that working? 22:40:56 ais523: you don't have to parse it much 22:41:01 bsmntbombdood: dunno :-D 22:41:12 bsmntbombdood, simple 22:41:19 bsmntbombdood, ETOOLITTLEINFO 22:41:22 :) 22:41:31 unfortunately, bracism parsing is more complex than a regex. 22:41:35 bsmntbombdood: there's an option to nc to do that automatically 22:41:49 ais523, I would recommend socat 22:41:49 nc irc.freenode.net 6667 -e 'command', IIRC 22:41:58 ais523, doesn't that listen? 22:42:07 AnMaster: yes, you would recommend socat. 22:42:13 this is a reason why you are unhelpful 22:42:15 ehird, what is wrong with socat!? 22:42:19 tell me 22:42:23 AnMaster: I may have used the wrong option 22:42:28 "How can I do X with this tool?" 22:42:30 "Use another tool" 22:42:36 => very unhelpful unless all other situations have been covered. 22:43:21 well, I'm going to declare #vhdl Helpful and Not At All Snarky 22:43:42 So it gets the coveted HNAAS award. 22:43:42 ais523: is VHDL, I mean, good? 22:43:49 or is it sucky 22:43:54 ehird: it's a language which is good for what it's designed for 22:43:56 whoa, kragen sitaker 22:43:59 that guy gets everywhere 22:44:07 if inspired slightly (well, far) too much by ADA 22:44:23 you need to get used to writing lots of boilerplate to write VHDL 22:44:28 but luckily Emacs has it all memorised 22:44:44 anyway, I'd better go home now, or I'll never get any work done 22:44:47 bye 22:44:51 bye everyone 22:44:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 22:45:37 it still doesn't work 22:45:38 grrr 22:48:47 http://pastebin.ca/1312016 22:49:06 that does work when it is run with nc -e 22:49:22 s/does/does not/ 22:49:26 err 22:49:29 hm 22:50:17 -!- bsmntbombdood__ has quit. 22:51:28 -!- seabot has joined. 22:51:34 here's the bracism bot 22:51:35 @help 22:51:35 cdecl: cdecl 22:51:35 help: help 22:51:35 karma: karma karma+ karma- 22:51:35 meta: load reload unload 22:51:35 python: python 22:51:40 @help karma 22:51:41 karma: karma karma+ karma- 22:51:44 @help karma+ 22:51:44 No plugin called karma+. 22:51:44 UnboundLocalError: local variable 'plugin' referenced before assignment 22:51:48 fail :D 22:51:51 @karma ehird 22:51:51 You have a karma of 0 22:51:53 @karma+ ehird 22:51:53 You can't change your own karma, silly. 22:51:56 @karma+ seabot 22:51:57 seabot's karma raised to 2. 22:51:58 @karma seabot 22:51:59 seabot has a karma of 2 22:52:02 @python 2+2 22:52:03 4 22:52:08 @python if 1 == 2: { print "nooo" } 22:52:13 @python if 1 == 1: { print "nooo" } 22:52:13 nooo 22:52:20 hey AnMaster, or whoever 22:52:24 issmyoldbot :D 22:52:33 @cdecl int (*)(int *) 22:52:34 syntax error 22:52:36 wut 22:52:39 @cdecl int 22:52:39 syntax error 22:52:42 wut 22:52:43 @cdecl int a; 22:52:44 declare a as int 22:52:49 @cdecl int (*a)(int *); 22:52:50 declare a as pointer to function (pointer to int) returning int 22:53:31 issnitsocute:D 22:54:17 @python a= 2 22:54:19 @python a 22:54:20 2 22:54:25 @python users.ehird 22:54:25 22:54:29 @python users.ehird['a'] 22:54:29 2 22:54:32 @python users.ehird['a'] = 2 22:54:41 ... wait wat 22:54:52 @python users.foo 22:54:52 KeyError: 'foo' 22:54:55 @python users.seabot 22:54:55 KeyError: 'seabot' 22:55:00 hey AnMaster, do @python a= 2 22:55:16 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 22:55:20 @python a= 2 22:55:21 oklopol: you do it 22:55:23 :DD 22:55:26 @python users.oklopol 22:55:26 on it 22:55:26 22:55:28 @python users.oklopol['a'] 22:55:28 2 22:55:30 @python users.oklopol['a'] = 7 22:55:33 @python users.oklopol['a'] 22:55:33 7 22:55:34 ... 22:55:35 D::::::: 22:55:38 that isn't meant to wokrk 22:55:51 I CAN HAS MY OWN LIST HUH 22:55:57 seabot? 22:55:59 wtf is that one 22:56:02 also 22:56:09 AnMaster: seabot is my old bot, it has bracism 22:56:10 how many bots do we hacve 22:56:12 have* 22:56:18 a={users.oklopol["a"]} 22:56:21 @python a={users.oklopol["a"]} 22:56:22 SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing (, line 1) 22:56:30 @python def hello(a): { print "yo"; return a }; print hello("aa") 22:56:30 SyntaxError: invalid syntax (, line 5) 22:56:33 ... 22:56:33 WUT 22:56:34 ...... 22:56:43 @python a=[users.oklopol["a"]] 22:56:45 ... a bug in bracism?????? 22:56:46 i think that's what i meant 22:56:50 @python def hello(a):{ print "yo"; return a }; print hello("aa") 22:56:50 SyntaxError: invalid syntax (, line 5) 22:56:52 D::::::::::::: 22:56:59 but in my fingers i think. 22:57:04 err oh 22:59:26 why doesn't it work :( 23:01:09 bsmntbombdood: because butt 23:01:10 s 23:04:28 bsmntbombdood: also, bsmnt_bot has dc 23:04:35 ~exec bot.run('ls','usr/bin') 23:04:35 ['dc', 'nice', 'python2.4', 'wget'] 23:04:45 not my dc 23:04:46 lol 23:05:12 lol 23:06:47 it's better cuz i wrote it 23:07:00 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:12:40 About that awk thing, my guess is there's some sort of buffering nastiness going on. When I run "awk -f test.awk < from-irc.fifo > to-irc.fifo" here, then start a "cat > from-irc.fifo" and a "cat to-irc.fifo", nothing appears no matter what I write into the "cat > from-irc.fifo" terminal, except when I ^d it, at which point the nick/user/join lines finally appear in "cat to-irc.fifo". 23:14:03 fizzie, sound probably 23:14:04 so 23:14:09 attach gdb to awk 23:14:12 Also if I feed enough (a couple of rather large screenfuls) of stuff into the "cat > from-irc.fifo" terminal, awk replies in "cat to-irc.fifo". So I guess awk is reading the fifo with the usual few-kilobyte buffer. 23:14:16 add calls to set non-buffered mode 23:14:25 I'm not sure I want to; it's not my bot. 23:14:28 i'll pepper in some fflush()es 23:14:37 bsmntbombdood, in awk!? 23:14:49 well, gawk 23:15:07 bsmntbombdood, does awk have a flush() or fflush()? 23:15:18 modifying the gawk source is cheating 23:15:32 gawk has a fflush() call. 23:15:48 I'm not sure it'll help, though, if the problem is that awk's still waiting for input before actually executing any BEGIN { } blocks or anything. 23:15:53 fflush([file]) Flush any buffers associated with the open output file or pipe file. If 23:16:09 if? 23:17:06 file is missing, then standard output is flushed. If file is the null string, then all open output files and pipes have their buffers flushed. 23:17:40 well that did it 23:17:42 heh 23:17:55 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:18:09 -!- dc-bot has joined. 23:18:22 ~say foobar 23:18:23 foobar 23:18:32 ~dc 123p 23:18:40 phail 23:18:44 .... 23:19:13 -!- dc-bot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:19:25 -!- dc-bot has joined. 23:19:36 guise 23:19:38 ~dc 123p 23:19:43 wtf 23:19:50 oh i know 23:20:03 i know how to design parsers that recognize a language 23:20:08 congratulations. 23:20:15 -!- dc-bot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:20:17 but how the hell do i use the parser output to build an abstract syntax tree? 23:20:17 you're not functionally retarded. 23:20:18 >.< 23:20:26 -!- dc-bot has joined. 23:20:27 I retract my previous statement. 23:20:36 ~dc 123p 23:20:36 123 23:20:39 yay 23:20:51 ~dc [loop forever] 23:20:58 the only parser book i have is incredibly complete, except in that it doesnt explain how to use a parser's output :| 23:22:59 err what parser's output? i figured parsing out by thinking, and afaik i'm the retard from us two. 23:23:25 I'd really have to guess that depends on what sort of parser you have, and what its output is. If your parser outputs "accept" or "reject" depending on whether the input is in the language, you'd have to be Really Clever to build a syntax tree out of that. 23:23:45 -!- botbot has joined. 23:23:49 Even more bots! 23:23:52 loopPONG :leguin.freenode.net 23:24:08 dc-bot: Thank you, that was appropriately bizarre. 23:24:13 * botbot prods ehird 23:24:23 fizzie: you could find nested stuff by doing dynamic programming on all substrings of the code 23:24:26 what i mean is, parsers can produce things like stacks of symbols and so on. what im not sure about is how to reverse those symbols and get a tree 23:24:44 only nested expressions wouldn't fail, you could recurse on them 23:24:48 i suppose i could kind of run the parser in reverse, in a sense 23:24:50 * oklopol is Really Clever 23:24:52 ~dc 0sa1[la1+salad1+n10>b]dsbx 23:25:04 ... 23:25:08 -!- dc-bot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:25:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 23:25:16 * botbot prods fizzie then :/ 23:25:19 and instead of pushing it out to a string, i'd push it out to the tree itself, but im not entire sure how to do that. atleast not in any way thats well established 23:26:39 psygnisfive: you're an idiot :D 23:26:42 can you be like recognize_addition = [+, read_expression, read_expression] 23:26:49 and that builds up a tree 23:26:49 thank you for your constructive advice, ehird. 23:26:51 my suggestion is writing your own parser 23:27:13 oklopol, i can WRITE a parser, im just not sure about how to get anything useful out of it 23:27:28 psygnisfive: oh. i thought you wanted to use an existing parser or something. 23:27:29 the parsing is trivial. its the conversion to an AST that im confused about. 23:27:39 ... 23:27:42 parses PRODUCE ASTS 23:27:47 that's the whole POINT of them 23:27:48 ehird, no they dont. 23:27:48 ehird: no 23:27:56 psygnisfive: yes they do. bsmntbombdood: yes they do. 23:28:00 parsing can just be a boolean 23:28:03 ehird: no. they dont. 23:28:04 bsmnt_bot, the bot is written in dc? 23:28:06 well, you can build the ast as you go, consider recursion descending in the ast. 23:28:13 bsmntbombdood: that's a technicality :-) 23:28:15 psygnisfive: yes. they do. 23:28:32 when you call a nested thingie recursively, you're parsing a child, just append result in list. 23:28:33 "Hey guys, I don't get this topic. Can you explain it?" "Foobar" "No, not foobar." 23:28:42 * botbot prods ehird again 23:28:46 botbot: WHAT DAMMIT 23:28:49 -!- botbot has left (?). 23:28:54 -!- botbot has joined. 23:28:56 !! 23:29:01 -!- botbot has quit ("..."). 23:29:02 oklopol: im not entirely sure what you mean. 23:29:21 psygnisfive: have you tried parsing brainfuck? 23:29:36 If the parser is a recursive-descent one, building an AST is really simple, sure. Just have a "foo" function, for a non-terminal foo, return an AST node foo(x, y, z), with x, y, z given from whatever foo() recursive-descends into. 23:29:38 brainfuck is trivial... 23:29:53 bsmntbombdood: yes, and it contains the basic idea 23:30:16 ehird: then i suppose i should rephrase it since you're a bit too dense. when building a parser, after i've gotten to the stage where each token in the string is recognized, and the production path has been determined, as a sequence of terminals and non-terminals, how does that get read off into an AST. 23:30:17 a way to parse a bf loop body is to make a list, and start appending instructions, and for [...]'s, call recursively, append result 23:30:24 oklopol: no. i havent touched bf. :P 23:30:28 $ ps aux|grep xterm|wc -l 23:30:30 253 23:30:35 THIS IS TOO MANY XTERMS 23:30:39 psygnisfive: Protip: Calling someone dense is not a way to get help. 23:30:49 you're not helping anyway ehird 23:30:50 you never help 23:30:52 psygnisfive: the paths are paths in the tree btw 23:30:59 I never help :'( 23:31:03 I suggest cutting yourself 23:31:06 you're just a whiney little twat who never has anything useful to say. 23:31:26 yes. Because if I'm not here to help you do trivial stuff all the time, what am I here for?! 23:31:50 if you're not here to help, you might want to stop replying to my requests for help 23:32:11 oklopol: i know that they're paths in the tree. but that doesnt help much. 23:32:13 or I might not, seeing as there isn't a channel rule that I can't reply to requests for help how I want. 23:32:14 oh lawd 23:32:16 bsmntbombdood, try a tabbed terminal 23:32:22 psygnisfive: if not, read my actual help. 23:32:28 like konsole, or whatever gnome have 23:32:30 AnMaster: i have a tabbed window manager, same thing 23:32:31 it may help a lot 23:32:33 i suggest you try to see how brainfuck is parsed recursively 23:32:37 bsmntbombdood, hm ok 23:32:41 I'm not sure 253 terminal tabs would be very helpful either. 23:32:45 it's very simple, and you should see the general idea 23:32:58 oklopol, parsing bf recursive? yeah dead easy 23:33:00 *sigh* nevermind. ill read this book on parsers more carefully and see if it has any explanation that i missed. 23:33:02 I have done it several times 23:33:04 psygnisfive: maybe do it in a real language, not haskell 23:33:13 what? lol 23:33:31 AnMaster: i've done it about 50 times. i do it every time i want to write something in brainfuck. 23:33:43 oklopol, err 23:33:46 that makes no sense 23:33:48 because it's faster than finding a brainfuck.py. 23:33:53 I save my project 23:33:56 Building the syntax tree in a hand-crafted "bottom-up"-style LR parser might not be quite as easy, but really, if your parser is a recursive-descent stylish, I would think it'd be hard to not to get a syntax tree out of it. 23:34:03 oklopol, are you on *nix? I don't remember 23:34:06 if yes use 23:34:08 AnMaster: what's the difference really? both take <1min 23:34:12 locate brainfuck.py 23:34:20 it will take a few seconds 23:34:23 AnMaster: could have a different name. 23:34:33 oklopol, idea: store it in ~/bin ? 23:34:36 with that name 23:34:41 1. hes on windows 23:34:45 2. shut up, stop trying to make oklopol logical 23:34:46 ah right 23:34:46 anyway, i don't take very kindly to people suggesting me to do stuff unless i actually ask. 23:34:47 you're ruining him 23:35:05 oklopol, sorry then 23:36:01 i'm perfectly logical. i just have different axioms. 23:36:14 fizzie: im sure thats the case, but i dont do much recursive descent stuff, so i cant really conceptualize why :) 23:36:21 nice oklopol 23:36:25 oklopol, what axioms? 23:36:35 (and a few psychological bugs) 23:36:38 err. 23:36:43 i haven't actually listed them. 23:36:50 i have yet to write a real parser 23:36:53 oklopol, indeed, that is why I asked 23:36:56 have you listed yours? 23:37:05 oklopol, not yet on irc 23:37:13 oklopol, and I need to consider them 23:37:24 seeing your as examples would help me define them clearer 23:37:24 bsmntbombdood i have a copy of a really good intro to parsers book 23:37:37 well, its more of a somewhat comprehensive parsing techniques book actually 23:37:43 but it goes through a lot of intro stuff too 23:37:48 if you want i'll send it to you 23:37:55 parsing is a solved problem 23:38:01 it is rather. 23:38:12 not that there aren't new and better techniques to be found 23:38:12 reading a book on a monitor isn't pleasent 23:38:14 BECAUSE THAT DOESN'T GET SAID ENOUGH 23:38:18 print it out then :p 23:38:53 reading on a monitor is pleasant, the only problem is irl books are prettier. 23:39:06 i knowwwwwwww 23:39:08 books are so awesome 23:39:09 painfully true 23:39:13 psygnisfive, what is the name/ISBN of this book? 23:39:16 printing is expensive and slow 23:39:19 just wondering 23:39:48 Parsing Techniques - A Practical Guide 23:39:55 you can actually get it online i just forget where 23:39:59 psygnisfive, and ISBN? 23:40:01 you can probably find it by googling that. 23:40:05 no idea, anmaster. no idea. 23:40:06 woo 23:40:06 print to_python("{'a':{'b':lambda a: a}}; def a(b={'a':2}): { pass }") 23:40:08 works properly 23:40:20 http://www.cs.vu.nl/~dick/PTAPG.html 23:40:31 ISBN 0 13 651431 6 23:40:39 tho you can download it there 23:42:53 ugh my local library sucks so hard 23:43:16 oklopol: can you writerate a program for me :P 23:47:24 whee, it also handles def a(): { return {'a':2} } 23:47:28 that's quite enough testing. 23:47:57 guh 23:48:01 i am looking on amazon for books 23:48:06 that shit's expensive 23:49:28 a used copy of introduction to algorithms for $70?!?! 23:50:14 That's strange, I get a "whoa, that stuff's so cheap" feeling, thanks to the book prices here. Most of my course books (if bought new from a local retailer) have had prices around $100. 23:50:53 Amazon seems to be clever enough to find Introduction to Algorithms if I write "clrs" in the search-box. 23:52:04 $100, yikes :D 23:52:13 books are crazy expensive : D 23:53:01 I'm not sure what's up with that $70-used version of CLRS. Even though it's printed in 2003, it's still the same old 2nd edition, for which Amazon is selling new copies (hardcover, even) for $60. 23:54:17 Even the page count is higher (1184 pages vs. 1056 pages) in the old one, so it's not like they'd have added any stuff. 23:55:42 they could add and remove. 23:56:03 FWIW, in the two largest local book stores here in Finland, the hardcover edition of CLRS sells for $130. 23:56:38 Of course it's a big book. I think I've used that thing to stand on when I couldn't quite reach something. 23:56:47 i should probably buy it 23:58:09 uh-oh, a bug 23:58:37 ("Full disclosure" note: as a cheap student, I got the non-hardcover edition.) 2009-01-19: 00:00:18 cheap or poor? 00:00:27 Both, I think. 00:00:36 oh no. 00:00:39 a _terrible_ bug 00:01:46 hmm. how advanced is introduction to algorithms, and why clrs? 00:01:54 Well, it's the classic. 00:02:03 And it's called CLRS because of the authors. 00:02:04 yes but i haven't read it. i assume you have 00:02:06 oh. 00:02:16 right. 00:02:44 Well, it's no Knuth. So it's not very advanced-advanced. But it's (maybe) good to have a reference book of them basics, just in case. 00:03:13 The first edition was abbreviated CLR; the second edition added an author and a letter in the abbrev. 00:03:20 does it prove algos, or just state them? 00:03:45 or a random mixture 00:04:07 Something like that. It's not *that* formal, but it's no cookbook either. 00:04:31 http://pastie.org/364233.txt?key=9rpypyo03fxtfukjimeq 00:04:35 There's a reasonable amount of work done on computing worst-case asymptotic effectiveness and things like that. 00:04:40 Bracism->Python translator. 00:04:44 Written in Bracism, of course. :-P 00:04:55 well yes, but that's much easier than correctness proofs, ime 00:05:13 wait actually i broke it fuck 00:05:22 ehird: how does it do dictionaries? 00:05:27 bsmntbombdood: cleverly 00:05:35 ill show the non-obfuscated source 00:05:35 second 00:06:17 just need to fix this one bug 00:06:34 oklopol: Sure, that's probably why they've bothered to do them. 00:07:06 bsmntbombdood: http://pastie.org/private/wqoy0vq8pdrfkapgzgg 00:07:15 should be fairly easy to figure out how it works 00:07:16 because ordos and the like are often pretty much just arithmetic, with a small layer of explanation 00:07:55 i read *an* introduction to algorithms at some point i think 00:08:07 i mean skimmed through it because i already knew all the algos 00:09:31 no actually there were a few trees i didn't know about, these things where you have the strings as paths in a tree, and can thus check what's in the dict etc. 00:09:38 but anyway, i wonder what book that was 00:10:17 bsmntbombdood: see how it works? 00:10:20 it was really big, but most of it was sample code, which was written in C# i think, and thus took the bulk of the book (levenshtein was like 3 pages) 00:10:21 no. 00:10:42 bsmntbombdood: :D, basically, it only triggers a block if you have a colon, whitespace, then a {, BUT 00:10:51 it only does that trigger if the last { seen entered a block 00:11:00 so {...} doesn't enter a block, no colon 00:11:01 but 00:11:04 {'a': {}} 00:11:05 doesn't either 00:11:09 since the last { seen didn't open a block 00:11:19 it's an essentially foolproof algorithm 00:12:02 CLRS code samples are all in their own pseudo-code thing. 00:12:19 pseudo-code is a great evil. 00:12:56 The book's web page has their LaTeX macro for typesetting that pseudo-code, I've used it a couple of time for presentation slides and stuff. 00:13:37 fizzie are you IRL buds with lament I have this fucked up view of #esoteric, and all the ops know each other. 00:13:56 ehird: No. I don't even know which country lament is from. 00:14:03 he lives in canada. 00:14:10 but he's russian 00:14:10 but he's russian iirc 00:14:13 snap 00:14:28 He's like a superhero 00:14:34 "LAMENT! He lives in canada... 00:14:36 But he's RUSSIAN!" 00:14:50 yeah, i wonder why that was such a crucial detail 00:15:04 i mean i'm australian, but i don't mention it much 00:15:08 lol 00:15:13 lament has inherent russian-nature 00:15:23 wait oklopol are you really australian 00:15:35 ehird: how really are we talking? 00:15:36 From the people in the nick-list I only IRL-know ineiros. And I might've seen Deewiant accidentally, since we're in the same university. 00:15:42 oklopol: like, really 00:15:48 like really really? 00:15:53 fizzie: wait you know ineiros the famous idler? WHOAAAAAAAAA. 00:16:04 he's been idle _thirty two days_ 00:16:44 i haven't seen esotericers irl, not even myself 00:16:44 Not on the IRCnet side of the fence. 00:16:50 at least directly and completely 00:17:01 IRCnet is a crazy finnish thing. 00:17:09 oklopol: there needs to be an #esoteric meetup sometime :||||||| 00:17:17 hehe. 00:17:37 would be so coo 00:17:38 l 00:17:39 It's not that Finnish. Although I haven't seen statistics. 00:18:02 There are .de people around, at least. 00:18:06 night 00:20:53 Seems to be sort-of losing in popularity: http://irc.netsplit.de/networks/details.php?net=IRCnet&submenu=years when compared to the trend in http://irc.netsplit.de/networks/details.php?net=freenode&submenu=years 00:21:46 Freenode has only had 52041 users max? 00:21:48 Seriously? 00:22:23 Well, it's not a big network. 00:22:37 It feels like one of the biggest... 00:22:59 :wolfe.freenode.net 266 fasdfa :Current global users: 44083 Max: 52254 00:23:28 Must sleeps now, night. 00:24:22 hmmm 00:24:28 so in haskell all object are immutable 00:24:38 does that mean they can use reference-counting for gc? 00:24:55 no 00:25:45 you can still have circular references that go out of scope 00:25:45 no? 00:26:00 how can you have a cricular reference? 00:26:09 bsmntbombdood: easy 00:26:12 let x = [x] 00:26:15 a=1:a? 00:26:21 x=[x] doesn't work 00:26:26 oh 00:26:27 right 00:26:28 types 00:26:30 :P 00:26:37 newtype Foo = Foo Foo 00:26:41 myFoo = Foo myFoo 00:26:45 yeah it's not like types are that crucial in haskell :P 00:26:51 oh hmm 00:27:16 bsmntbombdood: in fact, circular structures are very good for haskell programs 00:27:22 e.g. a fold over an infinite list is an interesting control structure 00:27:59 bsmntbombdood: take this with a grain of salt though, i'm not feeling all that bright today, there might be some other optimizations for gc at least, given immutability. 00:28:28 i just haven't thought or read about it, and clearly you can at least do what makes mutable stuff circumvent refcounting. 00:31:45 http://www.amazon.com/Garbage-Collection-Algorithms-Automatic-Management/dp/0471941484 00:31:48 that book is $100 00:35:33 lol cool 00:39:39 http://product.half.ebay.com/_W0QQcpidZ405747QQprZ305965 00:40:01 1996? 00:40:09 Garbage collection has progressed a loooooong way since then. 00:40:28 "Visible shelf wear -- may have some notes/markings on pages" - $32.00 00:40:56 lofl 00:41:06 Never used - may have notes 00:41:12 lol 00:41:15 lofl: lolling on the floor laughing? 00:41:22 or 00:41:26 laughing on the floor louding? 00:41:39 there is no expansion 00:41:40 just lofl. 00:41:43 Loudly on the floor laughing. 00:41:45 oic 00:41:48 I am loudly on the floor. 00:41:48 kind of like oko then 00:50:05 I see that my name has been said, so I look up through history to see in what context it was said, and am subjected to THAT :P 00:52:04 what was it 00:55:51 mnomnomno 01:09:08 ehird: I think I got the persistance of triggers working. http://dpaste.com/110549/ 01:09:46 just need to call bot.save_callbacks() to save, and it is loaded upon restart 01:11:54 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 01:13:52 ehird: Strangely, the issue with the topic-change doesn't seem to have any obvious solution. The bot sends the TOPIC-command to the server, which responds with the standard ":nick!user@host TOPIC #chan :...", but the topic doen't seem to get changed anyway. 01:17:57 -!- seabot has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:37:49 is something besides bsmntbombdood developing bsmnt_bot ?!?! 01:48:29 well... ehird asked me to make added triggers persistant 01:51:30 ive begun coding the interp for my language :o 01:52:34 and its working :D 02:31:25 >>> import each 02:31:27 >>> ['a', 'b', 'C'].each().upper() 02:31:29 eo['A', 'B', 'C'] 02:31:30 >>> 02:38:57 I no longer like Python. 02:39:44 Then again, you can do wild things like that in Haskell, too. 02:39:52 I got the idea from IO 02:40:20 You mean you can actually do that in Haskell? 02:40:29 ? 02:40:43 Er. 02:40:48 however, implementing it in python required using ctypes to get at the internal dict :D 02:40:53 Never mind. 02:41:13 I don't know haskell :( 02:41:19 I'm afraid to learn it because then I will forget about prolog 02:41:37 newtype Each a = Each [a]; instance Stuff a => Stuff (Each a) where f (Each a) = Each (map f a) 02:42:01 Where Stuff is an arbitrary class, and f is an arbitrary class variable thingy. 02:42:26 I'll get back to you on that when I understand Haskell. ;) 02:42:33 :-) 02:43:03 * kerlo ponders the continuous functions in Sierpinsky space 02:45:48 Sierpinski, rather. 02:53:05 Oh, cool, a function to the Sierpinski space is continuous if and only if the set of functions it maps to 1 is open. 02:54:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:40:38 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Excess Flood). 03:41:36 ... 04:00:02 dc is awesome 04:00:15 it's sooo esoteric even though it was intended as a serious language 04:24:27 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:25:34 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:30:43 :D 04:36:58 i am teh bored 04:45:38 bsmntbombdood: HELP ME WRITE ZEE 04:45:52 whut is that 04:46:22 ZEE is a game I'm writing, it stands for Zoom-Enhance-Extrapolate. It's a parody of those scenes in spy movies where they magically ... well, zoom, enhance and extrapolate images. 04:46:27 It's sort of an image-maze game. 04:46:59 i don't believe in games 04:47:15 You don't believe that they exist? :P 04:50:16 good god, cpython is a quarter-million sloc 04:51:23 i was gonna take a look at it 05:27:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:25:17 my language is working! :D 06:25:20 well, not all of it 06:25:23 but some of it 06:25:26 the important stuff! 06:25:36 so you did solve your parsing problem? 06:25:51 oh, no, that wasn't for this yet. im going to need to solve it eventually. 06:25:54 and no, i didn't. not yet 06:26:00 what kind of parsing is it? 06:26:06 what do you mean? 06:26:24 LR parsing or recursive descent, or what? 06:26:34 havent decided/determined yet. 06:28:12 anyway, the thing is that when you recognize a non-terminal token, you should know what tokens it consists of. 06:28:46 so you can build the tree out of the trees for the subtokens at the same time... 06:29:15 im not entirely sure how you mean that but ok :P 06:29:52 well consider LR parsing. you have some tokens on the stack, and recognize that they form a non-terminal production 06:30:17 so you do a reduction, perhaps after considering lookahead 06:31:02 now, if you already have the trees for the subtokens built up, you can just combine them to get the tree for the replacement non-terminal 06:31:24 sdjfhsajkdhfs 06:31:25 dude 06:31:31 dont even 06:31:32 :P 06:32:09 once more: you build the trees _while_ you are recognizing tokens, not afterwards 06:32:22 ok. 06:33:23 each token comes with its subparse tree 06:39:06 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 06:39:11 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:42:58 man 06:43:04 the ruby socket docs are horrible 06:43:07 all ruby docs are 06:43:11 wtf is wrong with these people 06:50:35 -!- Alt-255 has joined. 06:50:39 haha nice 06:50:44 -!- Alt-255 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:51:26 -!- Alt-255 has joined. 06:52:23 -!- Alt-255 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:53:36 -!- Alt-255 has joined. 06:53:40 -!- Alt-255 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:53:59 -!- Alt-255 has joined. 06:54:06 -!- Alt-255 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:55:12 -!- Alt-255 has joined. 06:55:18 -!- Alt-255 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:17:18 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:39:30 guys! 07:41:42 -!- kerlobot has joined. 07:52:02 -!- ehird has quit (K-lined). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:06 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 08:02:16 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive_. 08:02:16 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:02:30 K-lined :P 08:02:39 -!- psygnisfive_ has changed nick to psygnisfive__. 08:02:41 hm 08:02:45 i seem to have died 08:02:47 what did i miss 08:02:57 -!- psygnisfive__ has changed nick to psygnisfive_. 08:03:43 -!- psygnisfive_ has changed nick to psygnisfive_____. 08:03:50 -!- psygnisfive_____ has changed nick to p5. 08:03:56 * ehird has quit (K-lined) <-- wow, why? 08:04:02 what did he do? 08:04:11 -!- p5 has changed nick to cygnus5. 08:04:17 hrmph 08:04:27 maybe too many Excess Flood... 08:04:57 Heh, and he's always saying that Freenode admins do nothing. 08:05:33 -!- AntiGravityBot has joined. 08:05:36 :D 08:06:53 my bot is sexy innit 08:06:53 :D 08:11:25 -!- ehird has joined. 08:11:30 ehird, hello 08:11:37 -!- ehird has quit (K-lined). 08:11:39 what the heck did you do to get klined... 08:11:40 wtf 08:11:56 MizardX, maybe too many clients from one host? 08:12:00 -!- AntiGravityBot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:12:18 -!- AntiGravityBot has joined. 08:13:37 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:21:20 -!- AntiGravityBot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:21:29 -!- cygnus5 has changed nick to psygnisfive. 08:22:31 -!- AntiGravityBot has joined. 08:22:38 so! 08:22:47 i now have a bot that runs most of my little language. :D 08:28:30 -!- AntiGravityBot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:34:30 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:34:34 -!- puzzlet has joined. 08:47:29 -!- GregorR has joined. 08:57:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:57:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 09:00:43 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 10:29:16 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:29:25 -!- puzzlet has joined. 11:06:34 GregorR: It's sort of an image-maze game. <<< like, all you can do is zoom, but only some parts of the picture contain details you can actually zoom to? 11:11:49 somehow the fractal's structure hints where the path continues 11:12:02 and at the end, there's a little winking smiley 11:12:04 ";)" 11:12:16 so you know you finally did it. 11:16:35 hm 11:16:42 a lot of games are way too weak on the plot I think 11:17:12 However, I'm not good at making up game plots myself... 11:17:28 Two games in particular. 11:17:33 1) Chess 2) Tetris 11:17:37 both need more plot :D 11:17:42 no they don't 11:18:00 oklopol, well, not "need" indeed. But it wouldn't hurt. 11:18:20 it would hurt, it would just distract from the games' actual problems 11:18:45 oklopol, well, you could include it as "background info" or something 11:18:48 well okay, i'm not saying anything bad about tetris, but chess doesn't really work as a computer game. 11:18:57 oklopol, agreed. 11:18:58 because you can't build on it. 11:19:07 um? 11:19:09 it's always the same, change it, and it simply isn't chess anymore. 11:19:20 oh that would be fun, chess with trench digging! 11:19:20 thus it's more of a puzzle imo 11:19:23 :D 11:19:43 puzzle-typey game, not the kind that's fun to play with the computer 11:19:56 oklopol, make chess an RTS! 11:20:02 real-time system? 11:20:14 real time strategy 11:20:22 oh. right lol. 11:20:27 as opposed to turn based 11:20:59 trench digging? 11:21:18 oklopol, yes? 11:21:34 just making sure i heard 11:21:41 oklopol, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trench_warfare 11:21:57 you dig them 11:22:13 oklopol, also add hitpoints to the chess pieces 11:22:18 right that kinda trench. 11:22:19 and ranged weapons 11:22:29 i just thought you wanted to reroute rivahs or something. 11:22:41 oklopol, now, at which point is it no longer chess? :D 11:22:59 i'd say pretty much instantly, and that's my point 11:23:05 hehe 11:24:14 it's not a very continuous game, on any level, it breaks easily, in a way 11:24:49 well okay not that easily, i guess this is more about what i consider the chess philosophy to be. 11:27:03 chess is more of an algorithmic game, you can't continuously add challenge to it, as material, i guess is my point. 11:28:26 the only way you can safely add challenge is to make the AI gradually better, but, well, first of all that doesn't really have a continuing feel to it. and second of all AI isn't inherently very gradually enhancable. 11:28:52 it just isn't all that visible how good the AI is, at least to me. it just sometimes wins, sometimes not. 11:29:10 i mean unless you're really good at chess, which i obviously am not. 11:29:20 heh 11:29:37 oklopol, nor am I 11:30:04 AnMaster: i know dat 11:31:22 tetris is pretty easy to build on, the general idea of dropping shit into a pile with rewrite rules is used quite a lot 11:32:16 not directly though, ofc, if you just increased the size of the dropped objects, and kept them random, you'd never get a complete row 11:32:45 you'd have to add fuzzy row removing 11:32:54 which again isn't very tetrisy. 11:33:32 but, if the puzzles were handmade, or, well, even just generated more sensibly, you could even have continuous tetris 11:33:58 of course, if you fucked up, you might never be able to get the piece destroyed. 11:34:08 because it might not fit anything else 11:34:19 hm 11:34:34 continuous tetris? 11:34:43 pieces of arbitrary form. 11:34:46 ah 11:35:23 of course closed, having holes would make it kinda hard to remove the insides (impossible, assuming the pieces can't roll around, which isn't tetrisy again) 11:44:51 oklopol, you could also make something like, tetris but remove blocks of same colors if they are large enough 11:45:02 I think I have seen that once 11:45:06 * AnMaster tries to remember where 11:45:46 oh yes... http://kfouleggs.sourceforge.net/ 11:46:21 yes, that's the most common rewrite-rule-pile-based game. 11:46:32 it has tons of variations 12:00:56 true 12:08:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:11:47 -!- ehird has joined. 13:13:06 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 13:13:08 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:25:57 WTF @ K-LINE 13:26:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 13:26:42 17:13:52 ehird: Strangely, the issue with the topic-change doesn't seem to have any obvious solution. The bot sends the TOPIC-command to the server, which responds with the standard ":nick!user@host TOPIC #chan :...", but the topic doen't seem to get changed anyway. 13:26:44 rate throttling? 13:27:10 18:40:48 however, implementing it in python required using ctypes to get at the internal dict :D 13:27:12 no, it really didn't 13:27:18 you can implement that trivially 13:28:31 Anyway, I was offline when I was klined. 13:28:34 I am asking #freenode now. 13:29:04 ehird: No. If I look at the console window (running the bot locally), the bot gets the standard response for successful topic change, but I don't see that in my normal IRC client. 13:29:17 MizardX: That's very wtf. 13:34:21 told me to email kline@freenode.net.. 13:34:23 I love indirection. 13:34:32 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:34:44 Hi ais523. 13:34:49 Why'dya think I got klined twice overnight? 13:35:12 no idea 13:35:16 which network? Freenode? 13:35:59 Yep. 13:36:04 I've sent an email to kline@freenode.net. 13:36:13 Very WTFy. 13:36:29 ais523: are there automatic K-lines 13:36:30 ? 13:36:34 maybe some nick that yours is linked to got hijacked? 13:36:38 and went mad? 13:37:19 There used to be automatic K-lines on joining known botnet control channels, but that probably doesn't apply. 13:37:36 also on joining GNAA channels 13:37:41 hmm... do you have autojoin on invite? 13:38:02 13:36 maybe some nick that yours is linked to got hijacked? 13:38:02 13:36 and went mad? 13:38:09 Considering the hostname was eso-std.org I very much doubt it. 13:38:12 that combination seems to be an obvious way to get someone klined, if it works 13:38:17 And I do not have autojoin on invite because it was my _freaking bouncer_ 13:38:23 Also, I've joined #gnaa on freenode before. No kline. 13:38:26 anyway, in a lecture, I'd better go 13:38:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 13:40:00 What, #gnaa does not have hot african sex? 13:49:53 -!- ehird has quit (K-lined). 13:51:46 Maybe they didn't like his tone in the email. 13:52:33 :P 13:52:53 maybe he should ask his big brother for help 14:06:28 -!- seabot has joined. 14:12:09 -!- seabot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:29:31 -!- seabot has joined. 14:35:21 -!- seabot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:03:14 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 15:15:52 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:16:38 -!- join has joined. 15:17:06 -!- join has changed nick to Guest21688. 15:18:01 -!- Guest21688 has changed nick to Slereah_. 15:22:05 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:22:10 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:23:26 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:24:53 -!- ehird_ has joined. 15:24:59 The fuckers. I'm still fucking banned. 15:25:06 God, freenode is a bunch of incompetend retards. 15:25:18 *incompetend 15:25:19 *incompetent 15:27:50 You'd better watch that mouth of yours, they'll be k-lining you for calling them retards. 15:28:01 Verily. 15:29:32 It'd be nice if they, say, unbanned me while trying to fix it. 15:29:40 Instead of "contact our shitty issue tracker so we can ignore it". 15:32:01 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:45:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:51:56 -!- jix has joined. 16:02:13 -!- dbc has joined. 16:03:46 ehird / ehird_ 16:03:51 how do you propose this be trivially implemented 16:04:35 specifically, you can't just do list.foo = 'bar' 16:08:15 what is subclassing 16:08:24 each([1,2,3]) is so bad? :P 16:08:55 also im ehird_ cuz ehird got k-lined. 16:18:41 hi comex ico 16:20:46 yes 16:20:48 it is 16:21:01 because it requires thinking you're going to use "each" before typing out the list 16:21:08 this is a laziness construct 16:21:12 " what is cursor positioning " 16:21:21 however, obviously its uses in python are limited 16:21:57 clearly we should all use scheme 16:22:04 in io you can do, say, list(foo, bar, baz) each setNumber(x += 1) 16:22:08 clearly we should all use scheme 16:30:06 AAAAAAAAAAA 16:30:46 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 16:31:21 still fucking klined 16:43:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:59:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:59:35 hi ais523 oerjan 16:59:43 hi ehird_ oerjan 16:59:49 *hi oerjan ehird_ 16:59:53 hi ais523 ehird_ 16:59:55 we need some chance at symmetry here... 17:00:12 wait what 17:00:17 well we failed 17:00:28 so, now taking bets as to when freenode will de-kline my bouncer again 17:00:46 ouch 17:01:02 what did it do? 17:01:10 nothing, read the logs 17:01:13 keeps happening 17:01:16 * ais523 vaguely wonders why the desktop background on the Windows computer next to me says "Please Check Monitor For Updated Password" 17:01:21 freenode are incompetent maximus 17:02:00 my guess is it's something to do with the practice on the lecture hall computers that they use of putting a guest username/password onto the monitor so visiting lecturers can log in 17:02:02 = incompetentissimus, iirc 17:02:07 and it's somehow been deployed over here by mistake 17:02:23 there isn't a username/password on this monitor 17:02:43 but then, weirder was the time when I came to a similar computer and it was apparently off 17:02:55 none of the LEDs on the front looked on (but it was sunny and I couldn't tell for certain) 17:03:01 neither the keyboard nor mouse did anything 17:03:16 the only thing that made me wonder if it was really off was the Windows XP screensaver on the monitor 17:03:24 -!- ehird_ has set topic: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. 17:03:29 wait what? 17:03:31 bsmnt_bot 17:03:37 ... guess it got klined too 17:04:27 perhaps bsmnt_bot was the reason 17:04:38 was it going on a rampage, I wonder? 17:04:44 it could be controlled by arbitrary people... 17:04:51 does it have logs? 17:04:56 I doubt it, it didn't quit as k-lined 17:05:01 just as connection reset by remote 17:05:07 whereas I was explicitly auto-klined 17:05:10 or, umm, klined by a fucktard 17:05:19 but i'd prefer to think its incompetent programming 17:07:22 Chess plot: You are the king of a great empire, but for years there has been diplomatic tension with the empire just down the road. Now, their fury at you for completely duplicating their army in every detail has heatened so that they've declared war! Neither of your armies are very large (you have enough people to recruit a huge army, but then it wouldn't be an exact duplicate of your neighbors!), so this singular battle will likely determine the vic 17:07:24 tor in the war. Now, send your footsoldiers to their almost certain doom, as they are but pawns in ... oh, never mind. Welcome to the world of CHESS! 17:07:50 GregorR: so why can you only move one a turn? 17:08:14 That has nothing to do with the plot, that's just a game rule. 17:08:24 The plot never actually explains the rules, that would be nonsensical. 17:08:40 ah, it's just a chess-inspired film 17:08:44 http://groups.google.co.uk/group/net.micro.pc/msg/993d3e017d041ed4 17:08:48 The first me too post. EVER. 17:08:48 you should make Tetris: the Movie 17:08:53 I've wanted someone to make that for ages 17:08:59 A plague upon csu-cs!casterli. 17:09:00 ehird_: how do you know it's the first ever? 17:09:14 ais523: google sez so 17:09:18 http://www.google.com/googlegroups/archive_announce_20.html 17:09:34 did Deja really archive usenet right from the start? 17:09:40 1) Chess 2) Tetris 17:09:42 no, ais523 17:09:55 so there may have been a me-too that wasn't archived and got lost 17:09:56 but near-complete usenet archives are available 17:10:04 and they were mostly meta-discussion about usenet, really 17:10:07 fwiw, someone might have written X-No-Archive: yes\n\nMe, too! 17:10:14 ass for (2), there is the sunken city of Tetris in Triangle and Robert... 17:10:19 *as 17:10:21 yeah um I don't think people used those headers back then ais523 :P 17:10:22 DAMNIT 17:10:40 ehird_: Somebody extremely psychic could have :P 17:11:14 http://groups.google.com/group/net.lang.c/msg/66008138e07aa94c 17:11:16 Duff's device 17:11:59 * oerjan recalls seeing a chess-inspired film on TV once. it ended with nuclear war iirc 17:12:16 HOW ABOUT A NICE GAME OF CHESS? 17:12:18 "Many people (even Brian Kernighan?) have said that the worst feature of C is that switches don't break automatically before each case label. This code forms some sort of argument in that debate, but I'm not sure whether it's for or against." 17:12:20 oh wait. 17:12:23 oerjan was referencing that. 17:12:24 A famous quote, it's nice to see the original 17:12:25 damn you. 17:12:54 Seeing people talk about having written C for 10 years, around 10 years before I was born, is eerie. 17:13:06 ehird_: just reading pre-C89 C is eerie 17:13:15 some of that would have been written before I was born 17:13:21 and the code you're talking about is even older than that 17:14:02 Any, or almost any, 17:14:03 > MacOS app that can run on MacOS8 *WILL* run on MacOSX. 17:14:05 -- 1998 17:14:06 *g* 17:14:55 because Apple don't need to stick to an insane backward-compatibility system to try to convince the rest of the world that all computers really are like that 17:17:17 Hrm. 17:18:16 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 17:19:14 sssssssssssssssssssss 17:19:58 ais523: how come there aren't any old replies to things like http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.minix/browse_thread/thread/e3df794a2bce97da/2194d253268b0a1b?#2194d253268b0a1b ? 17:20:09 did people not reply in those days? Or are they just lost from the archive? 17:20:23 quite possibly not archived 17:20:33 Usenet is not very conducive to archiving, the way it's designed 17:20:48 you need to be someone big like Google who's connected to more or less everyone to get the whole thing 17:21:06 I'm pretty sure archiving Linus's message was Deja's work. 17:21:23 Well, depends if it's older than Deja. 17:21:23 I'd be surprised if Deja managed to get the whole of every thread 17:21:41 besides, the discussion may have moved to whatever the old-fashioned equivalent of comp.sources was 17:21:46 when he posted the source on Usenet 17:21:46 Who wrote find(1)? 17:21:46 ? iirc some guy with vms experience. 17:21:48 that used to be common 17:21:50 Why am I not surprised? 17:23:10 * ais523 finds http://mauke.ath.cx/stuff/poly.html on proggit 17:23:14 which is actually esolang-related 17:23:18 Yes. 17:23:20 Does BF & Whitespace. 17:24:09 strange... 17:24:15 is 0 true for the purposes of ?: in Ruby? 17:24:15 ? 17:24:19 that source seems to imply it is 17:24:27 ais523: Only false and nil have falsity in Ruby. 17:24:32 aha 17:24:38 (After all, why is 0 false? It's just another number.) 17:24:39 clever way to detect Ruby vs. Perl then 17:24:43 in code which is almost the same in both of htem 17:24:57 yes 17:25:16 ais523: oh wow 17:25:20 if you leave http://mauke.ath.cx/stuff/poly.html open for a while 17:25:22 it changes 17:25:25 to I'm a javascript-generated HTML page 17:25:31 not for me it doesn't 17:25:31 :-D 17:25:37 turn on scripts. 17:25:37 it detects all sorts of other things, too 17:25:42 scripts enabled is one 17:25:51 but it also detects whether you're using trigraphs, in the C 17:25:58 and zsh/bash/sh 17:25:58 yes 17:26:07 it does perl6 too :-D 17:26:25 actually, I vaguely wonder how Perl6 knows to run just that code 17:26:29 is everything else commented out for it 17:26:34 or does it have a program-starts-here line? 17:26:34 mauke is a #haskell and ##C denizen FWIW, he's pretty fun 17:26:43 ais523: Same way as all the programs: clever commenting. 17:26:52 and polyglotty snippets 17:27:06 we should go for an esolang-only polyglotting record 17:27:20 luckily, there are lots of joke lines which autopolyglot into anyhting 17:27:23 I have to say, the fact that it's a Whitespace program is just beautiful. 17:27:36 Polyglots have been done, but not effing whitespace ones. 17:27:46 whitespace is quite good for polyglotting into things, really 17:27:57 hmm... it's valid HQ9+, ofc 17:28:04 but it could be meaningful valid HQ9+ with a couple of tweaks 17:28:09 although it would just say hello world 17:29:09 ok, that C99 check is just insane 17:31:06 it's also a valid oklotalk program :-D 17:32:07 what does it do in oklotalk? 17:32:15 Who knows? 17:32:19 AFAICT, it's a Kimian quine in some versions of INTERCAL 17:32:25 But every string of characters is syntactically valid oklotalk. 17:32:35 And oklotalk has no runtime errors. 17:32:49 So it does _something_, possibly nothing. 17:52:10 back 17:52:12 hi ais523 17:52:15 hi 17:53:18 tnorf 17:55:35 oerjan, *GROAN* 17:56:09 think my boouncer is still k-lined? 17:58:40 ais523: blognomic is impossible 17:59:41 why? 17:59:43 and wrong channel? 17:59:54 wrong channel: it's a protest againt my k-line :-P 17:59:56 and because it's so effing fast 18:05:27 http://unix-tree.huihoo.org/V3/usr/man/man1/chdir.1.html 18:05:33 I am so glad they shortened the name 18:06:57 shortened the name of what? 18:07:01 chdir to cd 18:07:10 oh right 18:09:45 i found two old bots of mine yesterday/today. 18:09:48 who wants to play with em 18:10:44 :} 18:10:52 everyone loves bots right? 18:11:50 . 18:12:06 ehird_: oko and kok? 18:12:16 nope, KajirBot and seabot 18:12:28 seabot was in here yesterday: it gave birth to Bracism 18:12:40 both in python 18:12:46 so, let's say hello to KAJIRBOT 18:12:51 * ehird_ runs 18:12:58 -!- KajirBot has joined. 18:12:58 here comes! 18:13:01 lo KajirBot! 18:13:03 .help 18:13:03 feed, help, kill, ps, q, tell, time 18:13:12 .help help 18:13:12 help [command] 18:13:12 Displays help on commands. 18:13:19 .help feed 18:13:19 feed [food] 18:13:19 Feeds KajirBot. 18:13:23 .feed something 18:13:23 sorry, i haven't eaten something before. have you got ten black holes? 18:13:27 .feed ten black holes 18:13:27 thank you :) 18:13:32 .feed mushrooms 18:13:32 sorry, i haven't eaten mushrooms before. have you got ten black holes? 18:13:32 how cute. 18:13:39 .feed lhc 18:13:40 sorry, i haven't eaten lhc before. have you got ten black holes? 18:13:45 .feed ten black holes 18:13:46 thank you :) 18:13:51 .feed sth 18:13:51 sorry, i haven't eaten sth before. have you got pizza? 18:13:54 .feed pizza 18:13:55 thank you :) 18:14:00 how pointless. but endearing. 18:14:01 .help 18:14:01 feed, help, kill, ps, q, tell, time 18:14:04 .time 18:14:04 Right now, it is 2009-01-19, 18:14 GMT 18:14:07 is it now 18:14:10 .help tell 18:14:10 tell pid msg 18:14:11 Sends a message to a process. 18:14:14 oho 18:14:16 .ps 18:14:16 0. ps 18:14:34 Okay, um, that is pretty much all it does. 18:14:37 Oh wait! 18:14:41 .q This is like a real AI. 18:14:41 This is like a real AI? 18:14:46 .q You're fun 18:14:46 You're fun? 18:14:51 .q I am cool 18:14:52 you are cool? 18:14:55 .q yes I am 18:14:56 yes you are? 18:14:59 etc 18:15:03 ehird_: that looks to me like a bad elizabot 18:15:13 fungot: meet KajirBot 18:15:13 ais523: that's good though if it's going so slowly that i think 18:15:17 ais523: it just adds a ? and swaps I/you :-) and am/are :-) 18:15:19 .q that's good though if it's going so slowly that i think 18:15:19 that's good though if it's going so slowly that you think? 18:15:26 .q fungot 18:15:27 fungot? 18:15:27 ehird_: ( ( out if she does move you know i didn't know that mm th- there's no other circumstances that uh people are not even computer literate they don't even touch the tip of the iceberg when it comes 18:15:27 KajirBot: at the same 18:15:40 .q fungot, will you marry me? 18:15:40 fungot, will I marry me? 18:15:40 ehird_: even seen it and have thought nothing maybe their first thought would've been okay there's a helen of troy okay there's a helen of troy okay there's a helen of troy okay there's a bunch of ' em 18:15:41 KajirBot: unfortunately i guess you would have a lot to do with 18:15:41 ehird_: Kajirbot doesn't respond to its name, though, it seems 18:15:45 ais523: nope 18:16:08 .q are__ 18:16:08 are__? 18:16:12 hmm 18:16:15 there's a way to break this 18:16:16 .q are___ 18:16:17 are? 18:16:20 :-) 18:16:27 def swap(a, b, q): 18:16:27 q = ' %s ' % q 18:16:27 q = re.sub(re.compile(r' %s ' % a, re.I), ' %s___ ' % b, q) 18:16:27 q = re.sub(re.compile(r' %s ' % b, re.I), ' %s ' % a, q) 18:16:27 q = re.sub(re.compile(r' %s___ ' % b, re.I), ' %s ' % b, q) 18:16:29 return q[1:-1] 18:16:45 Bot review: good code, cute, but lacks features. 18:16:51 Now, for seabot. 18:17:07 -!- seabot has joined. 18:17:15 This is seabot. He is pretty advanced: 18:17:16 .help 18:17:16 feed, help, kill, ps, q, tell, time 18:17:18 er 18:17:19 @help 18:17:19 cdecl: cdecl 18:17:19 help: help 18:17:19 karma: karma karma+ karma- 18:17:19 meta: load reload unload 18:17:19 python: python 18:17:23 @karma seabot 18:17:24 seabot has a karma of 2 18:17:28 Persistance! 18:17:44 @python if 1 == 1: { print "[broken implementation of] bracism!" } 18:17:44 [broken implementation of] bracism! 18:17:52 @python __import__ 18:17:52 > 18:17:55 @python __import__('sy') 18:17:58 @python __import__('sys') 18:18:08 o_o 18:18:16 ah 18:18:20 it rejects imports 18:18:22 @python __builtins__ 18:18:23 > 18:18:25 @python __builtins__() 18:18:26 NameError: global name 'builtins' is not defined 18:18:31 @python builtins() 18:18:31 NameError: name 'builtins' is not defined 18:18:34 meh 18:18:40 @help 18:18:40 cdecl: cdecl 18:18:40 help: help 18:18:40 karma: karma karma+ karma- 18:18:40 meta: load reload unload 18:18:40 python: python 18:18:50 ais523: try cdecl :-P 18:19:46 @cdecl void (*) () 18:19:46 syntax error 18:19:53 @cdecl void (*foo) () 18:19:53 declare foo as pointer to function returning void 18:20:02 it should manage it without the variable names 18:20:09 it doesn't. 18:20:19 because cdecl(1) doesn't 18:20:20 huh 18:20:24 @cdecl int getchar(), c[16], i; 18:20:25 syntax error 18:20:27 it runs cdecl? 18:20:30 yes 18:20:35 interesting 18:20:44 I mean I don't find C types very hard unless extreme 18:20:47 the name seabot cames from the fact that I made it for ##free-c and it was originally written in C 18:20:55 AnMaster: meh, bot features are fluff 18:20:58 might as well pile them up 18:21:04 like function pointers to function pointers that take arrays of function pointers or whatever 18:21:13 true 18:21:27 @karma AnMaster 18:21:27 AnMaster has a karma of 0 18:21:31 nobody loves you. 18:21:39 @karma oklopol 18:21:39 You have a karma of 0 18:21:42 oklopol++ 18:21:42 ! 18:21:45 @karma+ oklopol 18:21:45 oklopol's karma raised to 1. 18:21:45 how's this work 18:21:46 @karma+ oklopol 18:21:46 @karma+ oklopol 18:21:46 oklopol's karma raised to 2. 18:21:47 @karma+ oklopol 18:21:47 oklopol's karma raised to 3. 18:21:47 @karma+ oklopol 18:21:47 oklopol's karma raised to 4. 18:21:47 oklopol's karma raised to 5. 18:21:49 @karma+ oklopol 18:21:50 oklopol's karma raised to 6. 18:21:52 @karma+ oklopol 18:21:52 oklopol's karma raised to 7. 18:21:54 @karma+ oklopol 18:21:54 oklopol's karma raised to 8. 18:21:56 @karma+ AnMaster 18:21:56 AnMaster's karma raised to 1. 18:21:57 @karma+ oklopol 18:21:57 ah, right, much better 18:21:57 oklopol's karma raised to 9. 18:21:59 @karma+ oklopol 18:21:59 oklopol's karma raised to 10. 18:22:02 @karma+ oklopol 18:22:02 oklopol's karma raised to 11. 18:22:04 @karma+ oklopol 18:22:05 oklopol's karma raised to 12. 18:22:07 @karma+ oklopol 18:22:07 oklopol's karma raised to 13. 18:22:09 that's better 18:22:12 hey wait AnMaster 18:22:14 you cant change your own karma!! 18:22:17 @karma+ ehird_ 18:22:17 You can't change your own karma, silly. 18:22:19 it specifically forbids it 18:22:25 @karma- ehird_ 18:22:25 You can't change your own karma, silly. 18:22:29 it just did it above? 18:22:33 AnMaster: try again 18:22:40 ehird_, so you fixed it, ok 18:22:41 nice 18:22:44 no 18:22:47 also I think karma is silly 18:22:47 but it always worked for me 18:22:48 try again 18:22:49 :P 18:22:51 @karma egobot 18:22:51 egobot has a karma of -1 18:22:55 snarky 18:22:58 @karma+ AnMaster 18:22:58 AnMaster's karma raised to 2. 18:23:03 O_O 18:23:03 fail? 18:23:14 norm = thing.lower() 18:23:18 ehird_, do you lower case one and then compare or something? 18:23:18 @karma+ AnMaster 18:23:18 @karma+ AnMaster 18:23:18 @karma+ AnMaster 18:23:18 if norm == msg.sender.nick: 18:23:18 msg.respond("You can't change your own karma, silly.") 18:23:18 Fail 18:23:20 HAHA LOL FAIL 18:23:21 AnMaster's karma raised to 3. 18:23:21 AnMaster's karma raised to 4. 18:23:21 AnMaster's karma raised to 5. 18:23:21 hm 18:23:25 -!- seabot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:23:28 ehird_, agreed 18:23:30 ehird_: easy to get round it, anyway 18:23:36 -!- seabot has joined. 18:23:37 @karma- AnMaster 18:23:38 @karma- AnMaster 18:23:38 AnMaster's karma lowered to 4. 18:23:38 AnMaster's karma lowered to 3. 18:23:38 @karma- AnMaster 18:23:38 @karma- AnMaster 18:23:39 AnMaster's karma lowered to 2. 18:23:41 AnMaster's karma lowered to 1. 18:23:41 (just balancing it out sry) 18:23:42 .. 18:23:47 however 18:23:49 @karma+ AnMaster 18:23:49 AnMaster's karma raised to 2. 18:23:51 for finding the buggg 18:23:54 ^bf ,[.,]!@karma+ ais523 18:23:55 @karma+ ais523 18:23:55 ais523's karma raised to 1. 18:24:00 @karma- ais523 18:24:00 ais523, :D 18:24:00 ais523's karma lowered to 0. 18:24:03 ehird_: you should probably block bots 18:24:03 that was easy. 18:24:06 @karma+ ais523 18:24:07 ais523's karma raised to 1. 18:24:07 ais523: naw 18:24:10 I like bots. 18:24:19 @unload karma 18:24:19 You are not ehird! 18:24:22 ... 18:24:24 Bitch. 18:24:27 classic 18:24:29 :D 18:24:29 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 18:24:30 @karma+ seabot 18:24:30 seabot's karma raised to 3. 18:24:40 * oerjan waits for the kline 18:24:42 @unload karma 18:24:43 Unloaded the karma plugin. 18:24:49 ehird, about that kline, too many connections from the same host could cause it 18:24:50 @karma 18:24:50 wtf is karma? 18:24:54 :-D 18:24:56 AnMaster: only 1 18:25:02 @fungot 18:25:02 wtf is fungot? 18:25:03 ehird: ( ( noise yeah)) the one that's not conspicuous if they're ah laughter you know laughter stuff and ' cause she's packing)) 18:25:03 seabot: ( ( mm mhm mhm)) especially in the afternoon then it would come on fnord laughter laughter mm noise noise)) 18:25:22 @python while True: { print "lol 18:25:22 SyntaxError: EOL while scanning string literal (, line 2) 18:25:23 er 18:25:26 @python while True: { print "lol" } 18:25:26 -!- seabot has quit (Excess Flood). 18:25:29 lol fail 18:25:45 -!- seabot has joined. 18:25:56 @help 18:25:56 cdecl: cdecl 18:25:57 help: help 18:25:57 karma: karma karma+ karma- 18:25:57 meta: load reload unload 18:25:57 python: python 18:26:01 @unload cdecl 18:26:01 Unloaded the cdecl plugin. 18:26:03 @unload help 18:26:03 Unloaded the help plugin. 18:26:05 @unload karma 18:26:05 Unloaded the karma plugin. 18:26:07 @unload python 18:26:07 Unloaded the python plugin. 18:26:09 @unload meta 18:26:09 Unloaded the meta plugin. 18:26:14 Now it does NOTHING :-D 18:26:20 @unload 18:26:20 wtf is unload? 18:26:41 -!- seabot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:26:47 Anyway, enough seabot. 18:26:51 -!- seabot has joined. 18:26:53 Let me find another bot for us to enjoy! 18:27:03 I have sooo many... 18:27:46 -!- olsner has joined. 18:27:51 Ooh, old Endeavour./ 18:27:52 Vintage. 18:28:00 TypeError: __init__() got an unexpected keyword argument 'conn' 18:28:02 Very vintage. 18:29:02 Let's try that again. 18:29:08 -!- Endeavour has joined. 18:29:14 YO MY BOY 18:29:15 -!- Endeavour has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:29:19 wat 18:30:39 bot.seen[input.nick] = (datetime.now(), input.target, input.text) 18:30:41 is the failing line 18:30:48 String or Integer object expected for key, unicode found 18:30:50 oic 18:30:53 just need to str() i guess 18:31:58 written for old python? 18:32:02 yeah. 18:32:09 how old? 18:32:16 -!- Endeavour has joined. 18:32:18 seen ehird 18:32:21 .seen ehird 18:32:22 -!- Endeavour has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:32:25 Fail 18:32:32 AnMaster: 2.4 18:34:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:34:37 ehird, that isn't so old 18:34:52 I mean I would have thought maybe 2.3 or 2.2 18:35:11 It was for this channel. :-P 18:35:20 I only arrived here 2007 and I htink this bot is early-2008. 18:35:36 AnMaster: python 2.4 is circa 2004 18:35:44 So, 2.3 would have been 2003 or so 18:35:46 ehird, that old heh 18:35:48 2.2 would have been about 2000 18:35:53 ehird, 2.5 took a long time? 18:36:16 2.5 came out in 2006. 18:36:23 So 2.4 only lasted 2 years or so. 18:36:37 and 2.3 would be 2003? 18:36:43 Roughly, yes. 18:36:52 so it only lasted a single year? 18:37:04 Well, I think it came out in 2002 :P 18:37:09 I was just giving rough years. 18:37:09 hm ok 18:37:20 every second year new minor release? 18:37:31 interesting 18:37:32 Seems about right. 18:37:47 AnMaster: they do quite a few really-minor (toddler?) releases inbetween 18:38:10 ehird, "micro" I think is the real name, though "toddler" is funnier 18:38:28 btw postgresql call the second digit "major" and the third "minor" 18:38:33 I have no idea what they call the first 18:38:37 In this line, I propose a new term for "early adopter": "pedophile". 18:38:58 a bit too dirty for my taste 18:39:15 Well, those early adopters are a dirty bunch. 18:39:16 ehird, teenager maybe? 18:39:38 * oerjan recalls Paul Erdos called children "epsilons" 18:39:42 that would fit, at least for the period around 15 years 18:40:38 Well I give up on endeavour. 18:40:42 Let's find another bt. 18:40:44 ehird, oh? 18:40:50 endeavours are useless 18:40:56 ehird, how many do you have in total 18:41:02 AnMaster: like 50 :-P 18:41:03 # bastard: fuck goddamn 18:41:03 # it does irc 18:41:03 # released into the public domain by tusho, 2008 18:41:07 Best. Comment header. Ever. 18:41:16 I think I recall the discussion surrounding it. 18:41:21 eh 18:41:24 I think we were trying to come up with the most horrible IRC client ever. 18:41:25 was that the name? 18:41:33 client or bot? 18:41:34 And I decided to run sed over netcat. 18:41:39 AnMaster: client 18:41:39 ouch 18:42:29 so, was it worse than telnet? :D 18:42:39 oerjan: it's only 1 lines long, I never got around to it :P 18:42:44 oh 18:42:46 ah 18:42:49 unfortunately :( 18:43:36 _10 = PRINT("HELLO, WORLD!"), GOTO(10) 18:43:40 Valid Python code. 18:44:00 ehird, really? 18:44:08 with some input filter? 18:44:15 http://pastie.org/364879 18:44:53 ehird, that one doesn't work in the general case does it? 18:44:56 just wondering 18:45:02 What do you mean? 18:45:26 could you have more than one label there 18:45:30 and so on 18:45:35 yes, if you did: 18:45:42 to actually make control flow with it 18:45:44 _10 = PRINT("HELLO, "), GOTO(20) 18:45:48 _20 = PRINT("WORLD!"), GOTO(10) 18:45:50 that woul dwork 18:45:52 wow 18:45:58 ctx = globals()['_'+str(self.i)] 18:46:00 from GOTO 18:46:02 ehird, antyhing but "print"? 18:46:13 AnMaster: no, but you could make something like CALL(func, 1, 2) 18:46:34 also am I right this works through some sort of reflection? 18:46:40 yes. 18:46:43 ctx = globals()['_'+str(self.i)] 18:47:03 hm 18:47:34 what does the syntax _10 = classname(...), otherclass(...) do in python? 18:47:36 in general 18:47:54 a, b is (a,b), a tuple (like a list but immutable) 18:48:00 _10 is just a random variable name 18:48:00 ah 18:48:03 that looks like a line number 18:48:36 even better on python 3 where exec is a function 18:48:41 heh 18:48:46 umm 18:48:49 that makes no difference 18:48:57 well, you could lowercase it if you want in that case 18:49:05 o_o 18:49:07 what 18:49:13 why would you want that 18:49:20 upper case is the point. 18:49:20 good point 18:49:24 * comex shutsu p 18:49:25 This botte looks like it works 18:49:33 Specifically, botte.old/ 18:49:39 (I have 50 bots named botte, none of which work) 18:49:51 ./lib/botte/client.rb:24:in `run': undefined method `feed' for # (NoMethodError) 18:49:53 ehird, you keep all bots in under one directory? 18:49:53 sed over netcat? lovely 18:49:55 OR NOT 18:50:00 in subdirs by year? 18:50:01 :D 18:50:10 AnMaster: i keep everything in ~/Code// 18:50:24 it's a freaking huge dir 18:50:32 % ls ~/Code|wc -l 18:50:33 746 18:50:36 heh 18:50:40 ehird, du -sh? 18:50:41 I keep things organized by subject 18:50:52 $ ls /usr/src/b | wc -l 18:50:54 135 18:50:55 AnMaster: 723MB 18:50:58 comex, I keep them by size since my ~/src is too small 18:51:08 comex: b? 18:51:18 ehird, /b/ 18:51:22 na 18:51:24 /usr/src/b is my "wii stuff" directory 18:51:25 AnMaster: i doubt it 18:51:32 how can you write 135 programs about /b/ 18:51:33 :-P 18:51:42 ehird, um... good point 18:51:45 (did that work, because konversation fucked up) 18:51:48 [13:51] <-> #esoteric> /usr/src/b is my "wii stuff" directory 18:51:52 yes 18:52:07 also, I daresay it wouldn't be very hard 18:52:19 Hm 18:52:59 comex, <->? 18:53:10 you broke it's format string somehow? 18:53:46 no 18:53:48 konversation does that 18:53:53 -> = send 18:53:54 <- = recv 18:53:59 and <->? 18:54:13 "either way"? 18:54:19 no 18:54:22 18:54:24 I typed /msg #esoteric 18:54:25 THING = -> | <- 18:54:27 ah 18:54:32 } else { 18:54:33 /* "offensive programming" */ 18:54:33 printf("You SUCK! Go to HELL!\n"); 18:54:33 exit(1); 18:54:33 } 18:54:37 -- ~/Code/c-cont/cont.c 18:54:44 ehird, right 18:54:54 also, ehird: with konversation for normal channel messages I just get a standard layout 18:54:55 ehird, heh? What is the if? 18:54:55 (yes, real continuations for C) 18:55:06 ehird, also. pastebin that code 18:55:07 AnMaster: 18:55:08 void restore_context(void) { 18:55:08 if (gcont) { 18:55:08 cont_t *old = gcont; 18:55:08 gcont = old->next; 18:55:10 exec_context(old); 18:55:14 heh 18:55:15 right 18:55:17 awesome 18:55:19 checking for null 18:55:35 Not strictly my code, I'm afraid: it was someone else's toy that I cleaned up the code of (it didn't compile) 18:55:42 I wrote programs actually using it. 18:55:45 For example, a factor(1). 18:55:52 oh interesting 18:55:53 It was basically prolog-style. 18:56:00 The API was: 18:56:00 if possible I would very much like to see it 18:56:05 TRY(x) -- Returns x, generally. 18:56:06 HOWEVER 18:56:14 If after a TRY, a FAIL; happens somewhere 18:56:20 then we backup to the next TRY, and keep executing after it 18:56:24 until the try points are exhausted 18:56:26 ouch 18:56:26 at which point we fail 18:56:30 So, Prolog-style. 18:56:38 AnMaster: the actual continuation library was stack smashing 18:56:47 The API definition: 18:56:47 #define FAIL restore_context() 18:56:47 #define TRY(x) if (!save_context()) return x 18:56:49 ehird, I can see that 18:57:00 You also had to have a main looking like this: 18:57:02 int main(int argc, char **argv) 18:57:03 { cont_main(main_, argc, argv); 18:57:03 } 18:57:07 um 18:57:13 where main_ is your real main function 18:57:16 wow 18:57:17 because it needs to grab a stack pointer 18:57:24 so then it can't return while the program goes 18:57:29 not portable 18:57:38 comex: "Stack smashing isn't portable" 18:57:39 no shit sherlock 18:57:43 ehird, there are some tricks for getting stack pointer anyway. Boehm-GC does such stuff 18:57:47 but it works on just about everything 18:57:56 AnMaster: right, but you need to get a base stack pointer 18:58:03 non-x86? 18:58:05 ehird, err, let me see if stack smashing works here :D 18:58:09 comex: yes 18:58:16 ehird, if you pastebin it 18:58:19 ehird: how? 18:58:23 or upload a project with it or so 18:58:27 comex: it doesn't use asm. 18:58:35 comex, not very odd, the only thing I can think of where it would break is SPARC 18:58:38 AnMaster: it actually uses longjmp 18:58:42 yeah, but the stack can go different directions and shit 18:58:43 ehird, hm ok 18:58:44 and setjmp 18:58:47 but 18:58:51 AnMaster: and here's the oh god part 18:58:56 it messes with the jmp_buf 18:58:56 :-D 18:59:01 comex: you can detect that, the code doesn't but you can 18:59:04 oh my indeed 18:59:13 ehird, *that* isn't portable 18:59:20 portable, n. works on shit 18:59:40 ehird, jmp_buf format is "implementation defined", I'm pretty sure about that 18:59:46 wait 18:59:51 it doesn't actually mess with the jmp_buf 18:59:51 huh 18:59:56 oh right 19:00:02 it just uses the jmp_buf to restore the registers 19:00:02 XD 19:00:07 with setjmp/longjmp 19:00:09 ehird, yes and? 19:00:11 that is normal 19:00:15 AnMaster: yes but 19:00:16 what it does is 19:00:21 first it mangles the stack to restore it 19:00:24 then it does a longjmp 19:00:24 now 19:00:29 since the longjmp just contains the position in the stack 19:00:34 it jumps to the right place on the newly-mangled stack 19:00:36 and returns the registers 19:00:46 so it makes longjmp do its bidding, without mangling the jmp_buf :-D 19:00:51 ouch 19:00:53 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:00:55 gotta find the original author of this code 19:00:58 a complete genius 19:00:58 ehird, this would fail on SPARC I'm pretty sure 19:01:04 ehird, also I WANT TO SEE IT! 19:01:26 ehird, I can't imagine this working with SPARC's moving register window thingy 19:01:43 sadly I don't have a sparc to test on 19:01:48 but anyway 19:01:52 I want to test this, please! 19:02:09 kay 19:02:18 First, here's factor.c 19:02:27 AnMaster: http://pastie.org/private/rm5gexu9dbovkfi3jch4g 19:03:08 Note: rather inefficient :-P 19:03:15 Specifically, in that it's copying the stack each integer it tries. 19:03:17 In a brute-force. 19:03:32 But it works: 19:03:32 % ./factor 4 19:03:33 4: 2 2 19:03:34 hm? any more files? 19:03:40 AnMaster: yes, that's just the demo program 19:03:56 ehird, the rest? 19:04:00 Be patient. 19:04:03 right 19:04:14 that wouldn't be me however ;P 19:05:06 AnMaster: http://pastie.org/private/yaoobsjszqr9ufddh9znfg 19:05:12 source & examples 19:05:13 ehird, idea: use this and boehm-gc at the same time, watch star collide 19:05:23 source is mostly the other guyses, but with my cleanup and stuff 19:05:28 examples are all mine 19:06:35 AnMaster: fibs.c doesn't actually use it for prolog-style backtracking OFC 19:06:39 it just uses it as a continuation 19:06:55 generally you want multiple continuations that you can resume at your will and pass around, ofc 19:07:03 left as an excersize to the reader :-P 19:07:17 incidentally, 19:07:17 printf("fib(%i) = %i\n", i++, fib()); 19:07:17 if (i <= 10) FAIL; 19:07:19 causing a loop 19:07:25 I'm splitting files atm, let see 19:07:34 is possibly one of the most perverse behaviors of c code ever witnessed 19:08:14 AnMaster: running those programs through cpp may help 19:08:35 ls 19:08:38 Hrm 19:08:53 Note that I think getcontext/setcontext of posix ucontext may actaully do exactly what this code does. 19:09:06 * ehird runs one of these programs in gdb for shits 'n giggles 19:09:24 ehird, yes 19:09:26 testing them atm 19:09:37 * ehird step step step step 19:09:53 hm it works work -fstack-protector-all for amb at least 19:10:07 Ha. Your stack protector is foiled! 19:10:18 Heh. I found python 1.5.2 on one of my school's servers. :) 19:10:21 ehird, it is for buffer overwriting on normal return 19:10:26 AnMaster: Yes. 19:10:28 it can't protect long jump 19:10:33 AnMaster: It's not a long jump. 19:10:37 It actually modifies the memory on the stack. 19:10:40 It just copies it in place. 19:10:41 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:10:47 the longjmp is only needed for restoring registers 19:10:55 the stack smashing would work just as well without of it 19:11:15 ehird, yes and there is no way stack smash protection can work for that case 19:11:20 since it doesn't return normally 19:11:29 :-D 19:11:35 ehird, oh btw, does it work on sparc? 19:11:40 Dunno. 19:11:48 ==17012== ERROR SUMMARY: 0 errors from 0 contexts (suppressed: 4 from 1) 19:11:52 I don't believe it... 19:12:02 The elk scheme implementation does continuations in a similar way, I think it has its own special setjmp/longjmp implementation in asm 19:12:04 all of them are f*ing valgrind clean! 19:12:05 for sparc 19:12:06 != 19:12:07 !? 19:12:09 HAHAHAHA 19:12:09 :-D 19:12:35 ehird, ok some memory leak 19:12:39 but no other stuff 19:12:45 haha, where? 19:12:51 ==17022== 4,560 (2,240 direct, 2,320 indirect) bytes in 10 blocks are definitely lost in loss record 3 of 4 19:12:52 ==17022== at 0x4A0743E: malloc (vg_replace_malloc.c:207) 19:12:52 ==17022== by 0x4008AE: get_context (in /home/arvid/irc/c-cont/fibs) 19:12:52 ==17022== by 0x40091B: save_context (in /home/arvid/irc/c-cont/fibs) 19:12:53 for example 19:12:56 AnMaster: I am dubious as to valgrind's ability to track memory over stack smashing. 19:13:00 Perhaps it's messing up. 19:13:09 ehird, yes I agree, but that is a heap allocation 19:13:14 hmm, you're right. 19:13:15 it never calls free() 19:13:18 but it does malloc stuff 19:13:31 so that'll be a problem if you do like 50 thousand continuation sets :-P 19:14:06 ehird, yes, to support enterprise grade applications it need to avoid leaking memory 19:14:11 Quite. 19:14:11 ;) 19:14:27 wow, oklotalk is so pretty. 19:14:41 it uses the § symbol. 19:14:41 that's hardcore. 19:14:52 ehird, btw I saw Try/Catch in C today 19:14:58 in a non-eso program 19:14:59 that's easy. 19:15:01 it makes me sad 19:15:02 It's just a setjmp/longjmp. 19:15:05 AnMaster: why? 19:15:05 ehird, yes 19:15:09 it's a legitimate thing 19:15:12 yes 19:15:17 and that makes me even more sad 19:15:23 why :P 19:15:30 ehird, btw: http://rafb.net/p/lwMx7W92.html 19:15:48 Yeah, seen it. 19:15:52 It's a bit bloated :-P 19:15:55 ehird, unbalanced blocks too 19:15:57 :( 19:16:08 wut? 19:16:29 exception__catch 19:16:31 look at it 19:16:47 ah, right. 19:16:50 That's because it has to come after a try. 19:16:58 same for Try, unbalanced too 19:16:59 :( 19:17:02 no duh 19:17:05 you have a try, then a catch 19:17:08 yes it is sad 19:17:10 why 19:17:25 because it breaks code folding in this editor :,( 19:17:36 ;P 19:17:36 lol 19:18:18 ehird, you laughed at something I said? YES! 19:19:05 ehird, btw have you seen the build systems (yes plural) of libpng? 19:19:28 no 19:20:00 there are 1) lots of makfiles like makefile.gcc, makfile.vms and what not, around 40 or so I think, 2) autoconf 3) cmake. All in parallel 19:20:21 heh 19:20:24 why? 19:20:26 sure 2 at once when you are changing, but 3 at once... from such different periods 19:20:30 ehird, I don't know 19:20:52 I wish I knew 19:20:59 * ehird is a fan of the "just make it, if there's a system issue change the vars in the makefile" approach 19:22:22 ehird, well that is what optipng uses, and you need to change in several makefiles, since it uses one for the main program, one for the included and modified libpng, one for (again modified) zlib, and one for some "pngxtern" 19:22:33 and I needed to debug something, so 4 places to add -g, compile 19:22:39 find out it passes -s in LDFLAGS 19:22:41 then that is not my system :-P 19:22:44 edit again in 4 places 19:22:47 recompile, 19:22:49 then that is not my system :-P 19:22:57 find that make clean does not work as advertised 19:22:59 fix 19:23:01 clean again 19:23:03 recompile 19:23:10 ehird, yes it is awful 19:23:17 I mean, autoconf would be a step up 19:23:30 Note that you can do system detection in plain make. 19:23:39 with things like uname :_P 19:23:40 :-P 19:23:46 ehird, oh? Let me check 19:23:52 * AnMaster looks for a copy of nmake 19:24:00 damn don't think I have that 19:24:11 nmake is almost gnu make, IIRC 19:24:20 admittedly no uname :-) 19:24:24 just run the windows specific command and check that 19:24:25 ehird, err no it is microsoft make with a totally different syntax 19:24:25 too 19:24:27 iirc 19:24:33 no, iirc, you're wrong. 19:24:49 ehird, well I might be, it was years since I last had to deal with it 19:25:14 ehird, and I don't have any windows around 19:25:15 cool, my old DDoSing program 19:25:41 wtf... dev-dotnet/gluezilla? (something depended on it. trying to figure out what the heck it is 19:25:49 oh mono, wth pulled that in 19:26:06 this ddos program was a random fuzz checker too :P 19:26:20 it catted /dev/urandom to nc massively parallely 19:26:33 fun fun 19:26:37 WTF. What happened to the package dep graph 19:26:39 :( 19:27:05 first time gentoo package manager broke for me ever. And that is since 2004 19:27:16 (that is when I started using gentoo) 19:28:06 logs! 19:28:30 http://rafb.net/p/PnQjW524.html 19:28:38 I have no clue what the hell happened 19:28:45 * AnMaster checks around 19:29:20 well the mono one was easy to fix 19:37:28 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:42:22 -!- Corun has joined. 19:46:51 Heh. There's a module called tabnanny in Python :) 19:47:05 whassit do 19:47:28 tab. 19:53:01 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:53:35 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:53:41 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 19:54:52 ehird, is there something like "perldoc" but for python? 19:55:03 pydoc 19:55:09 oh ok 20:07:07 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:11:27 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:38:13 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:42:52 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 21:03:34 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:10:43 -!- GregorR has joined. 21:11:07 -!- GregorR has set topic: This topic unintentionally left unblank.. 21:36:53 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCException: MigoMipo out of IRC"). 21:39:53 -!- Corun has joined. 22:01:54 http://blog.uncool.in/2009/01/19/computer-science-fail-higher-education-in-india/ 22:01:58 … Linux is basically a DOS based OS. 22:02:04 A compiler is a software that converts code written in a particular programming language to machine code. To compile a program, you must hit ALT+F9. 22:02:08 The first high level language was Ada, also known as Smalltalk 22:02:12 ETCETCETC 22:04:23 Additional lulz: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7qvdj/the_first_high_level_programming_language_was_ada/ 22:06:41 A compiler is a software that converts code written in a particular programming language to machine code. To compile a program, you must hit ALT+F9. <<< xD 22:07:23 oklopol :p 22:07:25 :o 22:07:42 "a proof is a sequence of easily verifiable steps, in formal mathematics axioms or rules derived from them... to prove you use a pencil and you write "->"'s that mean "follows from"" 22:07:54 lol :-D 22:08:03 well okay that had a few errors, but joke should be correct anyway. 22:09:00 this is no joke sir! this are truth! 22:09:22 so, oklopol, i now have a semi-workable version of my language :) 22:09:37 cooooool. i have a few new books \o/ 22:09:54 psygnisfive: is it the graph thing 22:09:55 oh 22:09:56 -!- ehird has set topic: how much could a if a could ?. 22:09:56 shall i bring my bot in here so you can poke at it? :P 22:09:58 it's the rewrite thing 22:10:01 no tree 22:10:02 sure. 22:10:08 of course, i should go read soon. 22:10:11 the graph thing is my linguistics project :p 22:10:31 ehird: a of it prolly 22:10:37 oklopol: oic 22:10:41 -!- AntiGravityBot has joined. 22:10:54 ehird: !! 22:11:10 -!- AntiGravityBot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:11:20 failure 22:11:21 -!- AntiGravityBot has joined. 22:11:25 there thats better. 22:11:32 a proper n=. 22:11:34 you restarted it to change the ident? 22:11:35 srsly? 22:11:39 yes :p 22:11:46 im neurotic about these things sir! 22:12:23 so. 22:12:25 how does it run. 22:12:28 it sort of works for what i want. i need to improve it tho. its just prototyped right now. 22:12:33 STOP BEING NEUROTIC OR I'LL SPANK YOU. OH WAIT. 22:12:34 run in what sense? 22:12:38 psygnisfive: AntiGravityBot. 22:12:40 how do you use it. 22:12:43 oh 22:12:44 or does it just sit there. 22:12:46 agbot: 5 + 5 22:12:46 10 22:12:50 agbot: 1 / 0 22:12:51 Infinity 22:12:55 agbot: {APOW£" 22:12:55 error: contains unbound variables 22:13:00 agbot: crash fucker 22:13:00 (crash fucker) 22:13:06 agbot: \n 22:13:06 (\ n) 22:13:08 agbot: "\n" 22:13:08 ("\ n ") 22:13:18 agbot: (1 / 0) + 2 22:13:18 *** 22:13:22 wat 22:13:35 agbot: sin pi 22:13:35 (sin pi) 22:13:39 *** is its current way of saying "this is not possible" 22:13:41 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:13:46 agbot: suck a bum 22:13:46 (suck a bum) 22:13:59 AntiGravityBot: 1+2 22:14:00 psygnisfive: um, Infinity+1 is very well defined 22:14:03 so is Infinity+2 22:14:08 no no thats not what i mean :p 22:14:31 Infinity itself is not defined in the system. its relying on the ruby's math facilities to do math, see 22:14:38 AntiGravityBot: SUPPORT TAB COMPLETION YOU INFIDEL! 22:14:44 so it does 1 / 0 and ruby kicks back Infinity 22:14:59 psygnisfive: now make its prefix its actual nick 22:15:03 and this gets converted back into a string 22:15:09 ok fine :P 22:15:12 -!- AntiGravityBot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:15:17 so 22:15:19 -!- agbot has joined. 22:15:20 what is interesting about it 22:15:23 happy? :P 22:15:25 whell 22:15:26 i'm not seeing anything more than basic arithmetic atm 22:15:40 agbot: fac 0 = 1 22:15:40 defined: fac 0 = 1 22:15:52 you can define functions 22:15:52 agbot: fac N = N*(fac (N-1)) 22:15:52 defined: fac N = N*(fac (N-1)) 22:15:54 whoop de doo 22:15:56 :P 22:15:59 when does it get interesting? 22:16:00 agbot: fac 5 22:16:00 120 22:16:09 agbot: fac 10000000 22:16:11 I broked it. :-) 22:16:15 agbot: fac 1 22:16:15 no its running 22:16:19 psygnisfive: yes. 22:16:20 im watching it evaluate that 22:16:23 and it'll run until we get bored. 22:16:31 -!- agbot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:16:41 so where's the interesting part 22:16:46 -!- agbot has joined. 22:16:48 hush you 22:16:54 it's a question 22:16:55 answer it 22:16:57 psygnisfive: now is there any of that nondeterministic stuff? 22:17:04 oklopol: not yet 22:17:06 agbot: X my== X = true 22:17:06 defined: X my== X = true 22:17:14 ehird: when was the last time you made anything interesting? :P 22:17:15 is that syntax? 22:17:17 that is ugly syntax. 22:17:19 agbot: _ my== _ = false 22:17:19 defined: _ my== _ = false 22:17:21 oklopol: all the time :P 22:17:23 I just never release it. 22:17:33 agbot: 1 my== 2 22:17:33 false 22:17:37 agbot: 1 my== 1 22:17:37 true 22:17:44 simple, trivial, i know. :P 22:17:57 so 22:17:57 ehird: if you don't finish and release it, it never existed. 22:18:00 but the point is that its using full blown unification based pattern matching on its rules 22:18:04 where's the interesting part psygnisfive 22:18:17 oklopol: like oklotalk 22:18:23 you can define things like lists ground up, in a sense. 22:18:25 ehird: my point exactly. 22:18:31 that is 22:18:31 agbot: first nil = error 22:18:32 psygnisfive: you mean like in any language ever? 22:18:32 defined: first nil = error 22:18:38 not impressed yet. 22:18:46 im not trying to impress you, funnily enough 22:18:47 the point was i was just referring to my own incapability to finish a project after realizing how to finish it. 22:19:04 psygnisfive: i was assuming it was esoteric in some kind of way. 22:19:17 you know, since you were talking about the lang in #esoteric. and brought the bot here 22:19:22 knew you couldn't just play along, people lose some sense of spotting sarcasm when you attack them 22:19:25 its esoteric in the sense that its thue with syntactic variables. 22:19:26 psygnisfive: that's impossible anyhow :D 22:19:50 so if thue as eso then this is mildly less so :P 22:19:50 oerjan: your puns are pretty impressive 22:20:00 agbot: a = a 22:20:00 defined: a = a 22:20:03 agbot: a 22:20:03 a 22:20:09 agbot: a X = a X 22:20:09 defined: a X = a X 22:20:11 agbot: a 22:20:11 a 22:20:12 agbot: a 2 22:20:15 huh 22:20:17 -!- agbot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:20:20 byebye 22:20:23 thanks, you sent it into an infinite loop :P 22:20:26 -!- agbot has joined. 22:20:32 thats another thing im going to change in the next version 22:20:33 agbot: ¡¶§¶åß®†∞¶ÂfiflÂÍfl 22:20:34 ¡¶§¶åß®†∞¶ÂfiflÂÍfl 22:21:15 ehird 22:21:21 would it help if i explained the language? :P 22:21:38 haha. 22:21:38 perhaps 22:21:43 hey adimit 22:21:43 that generally helps. 22:21:46 I had fun with that thing today already 22:21:50 hey psygnisfive 22:21:52 yes i imagine it does, ehird :P 22:22:45 ()[]{} are all individual symbols any time they appear. () is used to group things into trees in the text -- the interp never sees parens themselves 22:22:45 psygnisfive: if it's thue-based shouldn't the order of equations be irrelevant? 22:23:06 anything starting with a capital letter is a syntactic variable 22:23:17 anything else is a symbol 22:23:22 oerjan: what do you mean? 22:23:37 X my== X = true 22:23:41 _ my== _ = false 22:23:51 oh, in defining things? no. because variables + pattern matching introduces certain issues 22:24:04 psygnisfive: can you make it trace 22:24:09 thue is only fun if you see every step 22:24:30 also, non-alphanumerics produce separate symbols. so a+b is a, +, c. a++b is a, ++, b, etc. 22:24:48 and each _ is a dummy variable that uniformly matches anything but doesnt unify 22:25:06 ehird: im going to do those things in the next version. its very primitive right now. 22:25:17 adding tracing cannot possibly be hard. 22:25:21 its not 22:25:33 you have a step function, and a step-until-constant function, so just add an irc output in the step 22:25:45 but the way i evaluate it currently is using recursive evaluation, as opposed to iterative. 22:25:51 and? 22:25:59 the next version will be properly iterative so itll work better. 22:26:10 ok, I'll come back in 5 years 22:26:19 how about in maybe two weeks? 22:26:20 :P 22:26:34 it takes you two weeks to rewrite an interpreter for that? 22:26:35 Seriously? 22:26:38 schools going to start and i have stuff to do before then. i only worked on this yesterday because i wanted to experiment 22:26:51 no no writing the interpreter isnt what takes time dude 22:26:51 sheesh, gimme the code and I'll add a trace 22:27:06 Hey psygnisfive 22:27:10 no, its horrible code. and you dont understand the garbage i put into it. and its not even close to working properly 22:27:14 want to experiment? 22:27:23 its like way pre alpha right now. 22:27:32 when its more mature ill start distributing code. 22:27:33 I've patched oklopol's awful code before. 22:27:39 Slereah_ sexually? 22:27:40 There is absolutely no way yours is worse. 22:27:53 ehird: have you? 22:27:58 when 8| 22:27:59 the code, it burns 22:28:02 oklopol: ages ago 22:28:04 ehird: im sure you have. and im sure mine could easily be worse. but im self-conscious about my code. 22:28:05 which code? 22:28:14 oklopol: oklotalk-- or something I think 22:28:30 SLereah 5:28 I have stuff in my bums D: 22:28:30 SLereah 5:28 It is cause for alarm 22:28:33 via the AIMs. 22:28:36 oklotalk-- is quite good code on a conceptual level. 22:28:42 psygnisfive: well, I'd play with it if it traced. 22:28:44 of course, it's not very pretty 22:28:47 oklopol: yeah. on a conceptual level ::::P 22:28:52 hey oklopol when do we get oklotalk 22:28:53 i want it 22:29:04 ehird: give me a little bit to do that and you can play all you want. 22:29:15 right now i have to go back to working on my database project. 22:29:22 i'm trying to get myself to add at least a few hours of coding to my weeks, it's simply dropped out with all the university shit 22:29:33 i have to build this db system, analyze the data, and then also do some work on my ling project 22:29:37 by next monday, preferably. 22:29:39 oklotalk will be finished in _good_ time before duke nukem forever, i'm sure 22:29:46 cause ive slacked a bit this past month :p 22:29:50 ehird: oklotalk will probably not be my next language to complete. 22:30:03 oklopol: yeah but if you did oklotalk the other langs could be written in oklotalk. 22:30:05 so guys 22:30:07 afk 22:30:11 <3 22:30:18 dont break my bot :P 22:30:31 at least clue and a simple version of muture should probably appear before it 22:30:40 psygnisfive: i won't. 22:30:55 oh also, the interp is running inside textmate, which means its probably slow, so infinite loops are painful on my system. 22:31:04 so dont loop it :| 22:31:04 ehird: true. if i made all of it, then probably yes. also that would be insanely cool. 22:31:13 oklopol: :D 22:31:41 oklopol: then you could just, like, write oklotalk in oklotalk 22:31:48 bootstrapping? who gives a fuckshit 22:31:52 I run programs in my mind 22:32:03 well. 22:32:43 yes. wells are holes with water. 22:32:54 quite. 22:37:56 < Prodego> yes, and you really shouldn't be /on/ the network while klined 22:38:00 *facepalm* 22:38:11 -!- ehird has quit ("leaving"). 22:39:42 i have to leave, 00:37 and i haven't gotten pretty much anything done. irc is so fucking addictive. 22:40:03 if i can, that is. 22:40:27 -!- olsner has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:44:49 -!- ehird has joined. 22:45:03 Freenode are hostile, incompetent fucks failing to run a shitty network. 22:45:21 -!- sriracha has joined. 22:45:29 are you really supposed to be here? ;D 22:46:07 Heh. 22:46:40 No, being here is against freenode policy at the moment -- and I don't give a shit because it's the fault of a shitty auto-Kliner written by the incompetent fucks. 22:46:40 whats up 22:46:46 sriracha: disregard me. 22:46:47 I'm angry. 22:46:50 :-) 22:46:51 * oerjan is actually having to remind himself how unimportant this is, otherwise he would be angry on ehird's behalf 22:46:57 ha 22:47:12 sriracha: not much at the moment, collectively, it seems 22:47:17 not that I can speak on behalf of this channel. 22:47:24 Although that would be neat. If I could. 22:47:31 i see... 22:47:31 I'm scaring the newbie aren't I. Oh dear. 22:47:37 :( 22:48:01 Okay I'll pass this on to oerjan :P 22:48:01 ahh it's ok 22:48:35 wait, a newbie? 22:48:44 Well, sriracha looks new to me. 22:48:46 I may be wrong. 22:48:57 fungot, say hello to our newbie 22:48:57 oerjan: okay well we can we walk pretty much everywhere so it was really 22:49:19 ^style 22:49:19 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher* ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 22:49:21 ^style irc 22:49:21 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 22:49:26 fungot: be slightly more coherent 22:49:26 ehird: i don't read much of cll lately :) hot showers seem so much better :) 22:49:32 fungot: oic 22:49:33 ehird: now calamari has set up a poll about the most useless key, sysrq is currently tied for the lead, anyway? who needs to learn how to write it 22:49:43 sriracha: Have you sacrificed the obligatory amount of goats yet? 22:50:09 i'm more of a sacrificing kittens and puppies type of person... 22:50:49 The cuter the better! 22:51:02 (I'm tired...) 22:51:09 wow...what did i get myself into 22:51:12 wait, is this one of those actual magick guys we sometimes get when our topic is misleading? 22:51:20 who knows 22:51:24 sriracha: what brings you here? 22:51:36 i was actually trying to figure out how to use IRC 22:51:42 aha 22:51:51 Well, you've come to the right place! Sort of. Kinda. :-) 22:51:55 and i chose a random channel 22:52:16 We're actually about esoteric programming languages. (How boring, right? :|) 22:52:30 LOGS MISSING FROM TOPIC 22:52:34 Oh dear. 22:52:38 -!- ehird has set topic: LGOS. 22:52:39 -!- ehird has set topic: LOGS. 22:52:41 i see 22:52:46 don't know much about programming 22:52:51 *facepalm* 22:52:58 I should make a bot that screams that if someone edits topic and the logs are missing 22:53:04 sriracha: Neither do we, that's why we're here (ok, that's a bad joke :-P) 22:53:08 ehird, also: ha. ha. 22:53:08 sriracha: here is the place to learn it. 22:53:18 adimit: um that might be a bad choice of place :D 22:53:34 why, I learned bass on a six-string fretless... 22:53:46 whoa...how'd you guys send a message to me directly like that? 22:53:51 fungot: oic <-- what did cll mean? 22:53:51 %eval (The logs are missing!) 22:53:51 (The logs are missing!) 22:53:52 or better put...what's the command? 22:53:53 AnMaster: ok what it was when i first saw it i knew it once but must not have been merged and info on how too view it. 22:53:56 sriracha: Hm? 22:53:58 I didn't. 22:53:59 That was pretty useless. 22:54:00 But it's /msg. 22:54:06 /msg person message. 22:54:12 If you want a new window for them, /query person. 22:54:32 *facepalm* 22:54:40 what 22:54:48 not knowing irc :( 22:54:54 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric. 22:55:16 um, he's a newbie. 22:55:20 stop being elitist. 22:55:20 AnMaster: well he (or maybe she) said that 22:55:43 i'm a "he" 22:55:43 oerjan: sneaky topic 22:55:43 ehird, hey you are like that to me when it comes to some stuff 22:55:56 ehird: how so? 22:56:05 did i mistype? 22:56:06 oerjan: it's http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric 22:56:06 :P 22:56:21 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:56:23 %eval %eval 22:56:24 %eval 22:56:28 um 22:56:53 night btw 22:57:00 AnMaster: I think CLL was comp.lang.lisp. 22:57:08 fizzie, ah right, night 22:57:11 hi fizzie. 22:57:21 say hi to the person who randomly came in here when trying to figure out how to use irc! 22:57:27 ( sriracha ) 22:57:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 22:57:29 :-P 22:57:41 Hi to anyone who's hi-able, although I'll be gone in half an hour or so. 22:58:00 who isn't hi-able? 22:58:07 i'm assuming you guys more or less know each other? 22:58:13 ehird, well... there is also #,0 pretty common to get there by mistake 22:58:15 * AnMaster ducks 22:58:28 sriracha: for a certain value of "know" 22:58:34 and don't try that 22:58:38 sriracha: not really 22:58:40 i've never met any of the others in person 22:58:43 oerjan: You mean the biblical sense of "know", I guess? 22:58:44 well, yes 22:58:54 * oerjan swats fizzie -----### 22:58:55 but there's not many people in here so we know pretty much all the non-idlers. 22:59:00 think of the newbies! 22:59:02 fungot is a bot by the way. 22:59:02 ehird: sure, tomorrow. i thought the wrong way. 22:59:13 ehird, have you tried the channel #2,000? Very newbie friendly I heard 22:59:15 [a computer program that sits on IRC.] 22:59:20 You're a bot today too 22:59:22 AnMaster: yeah that was funny in like 2006 22:59:44 ehird, actually I have seen it work, using some strange unicode thing instead of , on a network that allowed that 22:59:49 confused the hell out of me 23:00:25 ehird, since I could join it by copy and paste by not by typing :P 23:00:35 (until I found out a bit later) 23:03:56 -!- agbot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:04:27 hum de dmu 23:04:28 *dum 23:05:46 ^ul ((hum de dum de)S:^):^ 23:05:46 hum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum dehum de dum d ...too much output! 23:05:53 darn 23:06:29 * oerjan feels dehumanized 23:07:12 ^ul ((what )S:^):^ 23:07:12 what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what ...too much output! 23:07:17 night really now 23:07:25 ^ul ((...too much output! )S:^):^ 23:07:25 ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...t ...too much output! 23:07:49 ^ul ((oo much output! ...t)S:^):^ 23:07:49 oo much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too m ...too much output! 23:08:22 ^ul ((put! ...too much out)S:^):^ 23:08:23 put! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! 23:08:28 there we go. 23:08:43 ^ul (:^):^ 23:08:44 ...out of time! 23:09:40 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 23:09:44 %eval (((s i) i) ((s i) i)) 23:09:47 In retrospect, "out of patience" would have been more accurate there. 23:09:50 ((loop i) (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i 23:10:29 I think I want to look up the Y combinator. 23:10:46 Yes. 23:10:55 I think we scared sriracha away. 23:11:11 %eval ((((s s)k)((s(k((s s)(s((s s)k)))))k) foo) 23:11:11 Syntax error 23:11:16 * kerlo frowns 23:11:36 %eval (((s s)k)((s(k((s s)(s((s s)k)))))k) 23:11:37 Syntax error 23:11:48 %eval ((s s)k) 23:11:49 [l (z) ((s z) (k z))] 23:12:37 %eval (((s s)k)((s(k((s s)(s((s s)k)))))k)) 23:12:38 [l (z) ((((s (k ((s s) (s ((s s) k))))) k) z) ((k ((s (k ((s s) (s ((s s) k))))) k)) z))] 23:12:47 %eval ((((s s)k)((s(k((s s)(s((s s)k)))))k)) foo) 23:12:48 (foo (((s ((s s) k)) (k foo)) ((k ((s (k ((s s) (s ((s s) k))))) k)) foo))) 23:13:00 %eval (((s s)k)((s(k((s s)(s((s s)k)))))k)) 23:13:00 [l (z) ((((s (k ((s s) (s ((s s) k))))) k) z) ((k ((s (k ((s s) (s ((s s) k))))) k)) z))] 23:13:11 %eval (hold (((s s)k)((s(k((s s)(s((s s)k)))))k))) 23:13:11 (hold (((s s) k) ((s (k ((s s) (s ((s s) k))))) k))) 23:13:22 I'm too lazy to add spaces myself. 23:13:51 there should be a language whose valid programs are KH(A^n)N, where the number of As is converted to opcodes 23:15:41 no. 23:15:43 ^ul (A)(~:(A)*~(KH)~*(N)*S~:^):^ 23:15:43 KHANKHAANKHAAANKHAAAANKHAAAAANKHAAAAAANKHAAAAAAANKHAAAAAAAANKHAAAAAAAAANKHAAAAAAAAAANKHAAAAAAAAAAANKHAAAAAAAAAAAANKHAAAAAAAAAAAAANKHAAAAAAAAAAAAAANKHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANKHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANKHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANKHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANKHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANKHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANKHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANKHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANKHAAA ...too much output! 23:15:47 failure 23:15:52 ^ul (A)(~:(A)*~(KH)~*(N )*S~:^):^ 23:15:53 KHAN KHAAN KHAAAN KHAAAAN KHAAAAAN KHAAAAAAN KHAAAAAAAN KHAAAAAAAAN KHAAAAAAAAAN KHAAAAAAAAAAN KHAAAAAAAAAAAN KHAAAAAAAAAAAAN KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAN KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN KHAAAAAAA ...too much output! 23:16:19 ^ul ( ...too much output!)S(()S:^):^ 23:16:20 ...too much output! ...out of time! 23:16:26 ^ul ( ...out of time!)S(()S:^):^ 23:16:27 ...out of time! ...out of time! 23:16:48 %temp ((lambda (fix) input) (((s s) k) ((s (k ((s s) (s ((s s) k))))) k))) 23:16:55 I did it again. 23:17:10 what? 23:17:12 %reset 23:17:16 Used lambda instead of l. 23:17:24 %temp ((l (fix) input) (((s s) k) ((s (k ((s s) (s ((s s) k))))) k))) 23:17:30 oh god you kids with your languages 23:17:35 out of curiosity, what is that? 23:17:39 What is what? 23:17:52 %temp 23:18:15 %eval fnord 23:18:16 fnord 23:18:21 %eval fix 23:18:21 [l (z) ((((s (k ((s s) (s ((s s) k))))) k) z) ((k ((s (k ((s s) (s ((s s) k))))) k)) z))] 23:18:49 That sets the evaluation template. Any expression you give to kerlobot is substituted for input in the template before it's used. 23:20:04 Let's see, I want the function to take itself, then take an argument, then return the argument a'd to itself... or something like that, anyway. 23:20:35 %eval ((fix (l (self) (l (x) (a x self)))) 3) 23:20:35 (3 ((s ((s s) k)) (k (l (self) (l (3) (a 3 self))))) ((k ((s (k ((s s) (s ((s s) k))))) k)) (l (self) (l (3) (a 3 self))))) 23:20:44 -!- sriracha has left (?). 23:20:53 Of course. 23:21:55 It doesn't evaluate self before passing it to a. 23:22:15 I wonder how to do that... 23:24:05 Eh, SillyLisp isn't for serious programming anyway. That's what SaneLisp is for. 23:24:54 How many times have I mentioned that I don't know why SKI calculus in SillyLisp works? 23:25:20 oh 23:25:33 well basically each of S, K and I happen to work 23:25:44 %eval s 23:25:44 [l (x) (l (y) (l (z) ((x z) (y z))))] 23:25:47 %eval k 23:25:47 [l (x) (l (y) x)] 23:25:50 %eval i 23:25:50 [l (x) x] 23:26:04 Oh, hmm... 23:26:20 variable capture is not a problem as long as you only pass closed expressions 23:26:37 Variable capture? 23:26:55 when variable definitions shadow each other 23:27:06 which is the problem you get when you don't rename 23:27:16 Do you know how variable substitution in SillyLisp works? 23:27:43 i assume you are just doing it naively 23:27:56 Pretty naively, yes. 23:28:08 ignoring alpha conversion 23:28:11 %eval ((l (x y) x) y foo) 23:28:11 y 23:28:12 * kerlo nods 23:29:42 (k foo), where foo is an arbitrary expression, will evaluate to [l (y) foo]. If foo contains any y's, those will be replaced when that's applied to something. 23:29:47 %eval ((k y) 6) 23:29:47 6 23:30:02 %eval ((k s) 6) 23:30:02 [l (x) (l (y) (l (z) ((x z) (y z))))] 23:30:16 I have absolutely no idea what you guys are doing :( 23:30:18 however, if ... oh wait 23:30:24 Hmm. 23:30:27 hm there could be a problem 23:30:37 %eval (k s) 23:30:37 [l (y) s] 23:30:41 Oh! 23:30:55 if foo contains both y's and what y's are replaced with 23:30:58 s doesn't contain anything at all! 23:31:10 oh 23:31:21 It's only when it's evaluated that stuff happens. 23:31:32 so you don't expand s and k until they are applied, yeah that makes things safe 23:31:37 * kerlo nods 23:32:08 I don't expand anything at all unless it's evaluated. 23:33:28 Evaluating (x y z . . .) causes x to be evaluated. After something is evaluated, the result is also evaluated, effectively. Also, f causes some stuff to be evaluated. 23:33:39 %eval ([l (x) (x x)] s) 23:33:39 [l (y) (l (z) ((s z) (y z)))] 23:33:58 and no sharing 23:34:06 %eval ((l (x) (x x)) s) 23:34:06 [l (y) (l (z) ((s z) (y z)))] 23:34:14 Using brackets is cheating. :-P 23:35:07 i thought there was some difference 23:35:21 there is 23:35:48 %eval ((l (foo) (I AM A HOT DOG)) (l (foo) (no ain't))) 23:35:48 (I AM A HOT DOG) 23:35:53 Wait, what? 23:36:07 I always get those mixed up. 23:36:10 Makes sense to me. 23:36:25 %eval ((l (foo) (l (foo) (no ain't))) (I AM A HOT DOG)) 23:36:25 (l ((I AM A HOT DOG)) (no ain't)) 23:36:36 %eval ((l (foo) [l (foo) (no ain't)]) (I AM A HOT DOG)) 23:36:36 [l (foo) (no ain't)] 23:36:47 The brackets protect l's first argument from substitution. 23:38:59 Which is cheating, of course. 23:39:04 So, I'll be more specific. 23:39:42 About f evaluating stuff, that is. 23:40:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("godnatt på er"). 23:41:00 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:41:02 (f func e list), where list is a non-empty list, evaluates func and (f func e ) before evaluating its result. 23:41:52 oh fold 23:42:37 "l" is lambda, what is "s"? 23:42:41 SKI calculus 23:42:44 for s, k and i 23:42:47 %eval (f (THIS IS FUN, EH MATE) e (1 2 3 4 54 5 6 7 8 9 0 10)) 23:42:47 ((THIS IS FUN, EH MATE) 1 ((THIS IS FUN, EH MATE) 2 ((THIS IS FUN, EH MATE) 3 ((THIS IS FUN, EH MATE) 4 ((THIS IS FUN, EH MATE) 54 ((THIS IS FUN, EH MATE) 5 ((THIS IS FUN, EH MATE) 6 ((THIS IS FUN, EH MATE) 7 ((THIS IS FUN, EH MATE) 8 ((THIS IS FUN, EH MATE) 9 ((THIS IS FUN, EH MATE) 0 ((THIS IS FUN, EH MATE) 10 e)))))))))))) 23:42:47 %eval s 23:42:47 [l (x) (l (y) (l (z) ((x z) (y z))))] 23:42:49 %eval k 23:42:49 [l (x) (l (y) x)] 23:42:50 %eval o 23:42:51 o 23:42:52 er 23:42:54 %eval i 23:42:55 [l (x) x] 23:43:14 %show 23:43:28 %what 23:43:28 ((l (fix) input) (((s s) k) ((s (k ((s s) (s ((s s) k))))) k))) 23:44:50 %eval x 23:44:51 x 23:44:53 %eval s x 23:44:54 Syntax error 23:44:58 %eval (s x) 23:44:59 [l (y) (l (z) ((x z) (y z)))] 23:45:03 %eval (l x) 23:45:03 (l x) 23:45:17 %eval ((l x (x)) x) 23:45:18 ((l x (x)) x) 23:45:22 %eval ((s x)) 23:45:22 ([l (y) (l (z) ((x z) (y z)))]) 23:45:33 %eval ([l x (x)] x) 23:45:33 Syntax error 23:45:38 l takes a list as its first argument. 23:45:43 Your argument is invalid. 23:45:48 (Sorry.) 23:45:51 how am I supposed to know that :) 23:45:55 %eval ((l (x) (x)) x) 23:45:55 (x) 23:46:01 %eval ((l (x) (x x x)) x) 23:46:01 (x x x) 23:46:03 %eval ((l (x) (x x x)) y) 23:46:03 (y y y) 23:46:08 comex: omniscience. 23:46:28 oh shit, freenode have a link to these logs as part of my email about the kline 23:46:36 think I could get clog to erase the anti-freenode lines? 23:46:44 huh? 23:46:49 %eval ((k f) g) 23:46:49 f 23:47:40 ehird: what were you klined for? 23:47:44 %eval (s (k y) (k z) x) 23:47:44 ([l (x) (l (y) (l (z) ((x z) (y z))))] (k y) (k z) x) 23:48:00 kerlo: nothing: I was offline when it was done. 23:48:18 Why are you saying "oh shit", then? 23:48:32 comex: the SKI functions don't really like it when you pass x, y and z to them. 23:48:40 %eval (s (k Y) (k Z) X) 23:48:41 ([l (x) (l (y) (l (z) ((x z) (y z))))] (k Y) (k Z) X) 23:48:51 Though apparently they handled it well this time. 23:48:54 kerlo: cuz I called freenode incompetent fucks in the log that I linked them 23:48:55 :P 23:49:08 mm. 23:49:36 freenode without you would be... different. 23:49:51 'sthat a word for "better"? ;) 23:49:58 %eval (q q) 23:49:59 (q q) 23:49:59 more quiet, polite... 23:50:03 %eval (k k) 23:50:03 [l (y) k] 23:50:08 oerjan: Harsh, man. Harsh. 23:50:31 %eval (l (x) (x x))(l (x) (x x)) 23:50:31 Syntax error 23:50:38 %eval ((l (x) (x x)) (l (x) (x x))) 23:50:39 (loop (l (x) (x x))) 23:50:47 That terminated quickly. 23:51:10 %eval ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((x 23:51:10 Syntax error 23:51:19 Now what did you expect that to accomplish? 23:51:35 dunno 23:51:41 Anyway, it can handle recursion to a depth of 1000. If you want to hang it, use really wide recursion. 23:52:06 %eval (loop x) 23:52:07 (loop x) 23:52:29 loop is nothing special. 23:52:57 Here, let me make it siller. 23:53:00 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 23:53:00 Sillier, rather. 23:53:13 Creamy is the puff. 23:53:13 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:53:20 -!- kerlobot has joined. 23:53:33 %temp ((l (fix) input) (((s s) k) ((s (k ((s s) (s ((s s) k))))) k))) 23:53:38 %eval (fix i) 23:53:52 * kerlo waits 23:54:12 %eval meep? 23:54:36 Wow, it hanged. 23:54:50 http://lca2srv30.epfl.ch/sathe/data/emacs_learning_curves.png 23:54:57 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:55:54 -!- kerlobot has joined. 23:56:24 I wonder why it did that. 23:56:30 Anyway... 23:56:30 %eval ((l (x) (x x)) (l (x) (x x))) 23:56:31 (loop (l (x) (x x))) 23:56:46 Oh, I didn't even save it. 23:56:46 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:56:52 -!- kerlobot has joined. 23:56:54 %eval ((l (x) (x x)) (l (x) (x x))) 23:56:54 (loop (l (x) (x x))) 23:57:08 Oh, maybe I did. 23:57:29 One more time... 23:57:29 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:57:36 -!- kerlobot has joined. 23:57:39 %eval ((l (x) (x x)) (l (x) (x x))) 23:57:40 ((IT IS LOOP SORRY) (l (x) (x x))) 23:57:47 Worth spamming the channel for, isn't it. 23:57:53 IT IS LOOP SORRY 23:57:59 IT IS LOOP SORRY 23:58:07 %eval ((s i i) (s i i)) 23:58:07 (([l (x) (l (y) (l (z) ((x z) (y z))))] i i) (s i i)) 23:58:13 %eval (((s i) i) ((s i) i)) 23:58:20 (((YOU ARE LOOP SORRY) i) (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i 23:58:20 IT IS LOOP SORRY??????? 23:58:22 lol 23:58:26 YOU ARE LOOP SORRY? 23:58:26 wat 23:58:37 Yeah, sometimes it says YOU ARE LOOP SORRY instead. 23:58:40 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:58:42 For, um, diagnostic reasons. 2009-01-20: 00:11:35 -!- jix_ has joined. 00:21:22 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:24:35 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:47:00 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:05:05 oh god you kids X_X 01:05:29 hey guys remember when psygnisfive called us all kids? that was funny 01:05:57 hopefully you dont think im using that in reference to your respective ages. 01:07:13 i call everyone "kids" or "children" for mostly humorous effect because of its odd inappropriateness from me (as i'm not in a position to call others kids, given that im only 22). its postmodern humor, ehird. 01:07:20 its steeped in irony 01:07:37 so don't be such a little brat 01:08:09 and if you get the jimmy carr reference in that, i love you forever and ever. 01:08:27 hey guys remember when psygnisfive reacted to a joke with 5 long lines? that was funny 01:09:18 ehird: im bored. tell me about some new and interesting esolang. 01:12:21 muture 01:12:27 & nopol 01:12:48 nopol has never been much explained to me. i've never heard of muture. 01:12:59 ask oklopol 01:13:06 are they both his? 01:13:09 yes 01:13:17 well.. then i'll NEVER get an explanation :p 01:13:19 oklopol makes pretty much all of the interesting esolangs nowadays 01:13:40 oklopol! 01:13:42 explain muture 01:15:31 ehird: i miss you being tusho. :( 01:15:36 tough shit 01:15:58 now you're a herd. on the internet. x.x 01:16:24 verily. 01:21:56 SillyLisp! :-P 01:22:09 I'll have to make another esolang one of these days. 01:23:20 you should make an esolang generator 01:23:38 something that takes BF and comes up with bizarre but TC derivations 01:24:13 then we can just set it running and tell other people to not even bother with making BF-like languages ever again. 01:24:26 make it an esolang description esolang 01:24:30 you give it a template, it makes esolangs. 01:26:43 hm 01:26:51 -!- ski__ has joined. 01:27:04 i think the benefit of something like the language im designing is that it'd probably be especially good for creating DSLs 01:27:25 ski__, chalmers.se? 01:27:28 ski__: have you sacrificed the goat yet? or are you earlier in the initiation process 01:27:31 is this a university? 01:27:43 Looking at http://chalmers.se/, yes, i'd say it was. 01:27:46 Now what on earth sparked that question... 01:28:04 well, he's logging on through them it seems. 01:28:13 which leads me to ask, ski__ what do you study? 01:28:24 Generally people log onto IRC with network connections :p 01:28:35 yes, but his is a university network connection 01:28:42 I guess we should have a descriptive topic what with all the newbies these days. 01:28:55 are there a lot of newbies recently? 01:28:56 (psygnisfive : yes) 01:29:00 i havent been paying much attention 01:29:11 -!- ehird has set topic: the international hub for enterprise esoteric programming language design, development and deployment ~ http://esolangs.org/wiki/ ~ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 01:29:14 -!- ehird has set topic: the international hub for enterprise esoteric programming language design, development and deployment ~ http://esolangs.org/wiki/ ~ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 01:29:14 (depending on what you were asking ..) 01:29:28 now it's semi-descriptive! 01:29:29 ehird : which goat ? 01:29:35 * ski__ looks confused 01:29:36 ski__: that one over there ------> 01:30:01 * ski__ see an elegant keyboard "over there" .. 01:30:08 yeah, that's a goat. 01:30:13 ehird: im looking at http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/muture.txt and not finding it to be especially.. insightful. :p 01:30:14 trying to trick you. they're sneaky things. 01:30:20 that's why we must sacrifice them. 01:30:34 psygnisfive: it's oklopol, what did you expect? 01:30:35 (, if anyone wonders) 01:30:47 ski__: that's a nasty goat, that 01:30:48 you know 01:30:53 you want to slay that pronto 01:30:56 ive never liked the datamancer keyboards 01:31:05 they're normal keyboards with a steampunk veneer 01:31:06 (ehird : as in .. SLAY Radio ?) 01:31:18 no, what i want to see is someone convert an old Corona 01:31:19 no. as in kill. with your bare hands 01:31:25 didnt they teach you anything in the initiation? ;-) 01:31:42 ski__ also kill your excessive parens. much as we love lisp, we dont need to speak in it 01:31:58 i like them 01:32:02 parentheses are ((parenthical)) 01:32:05 (or (do? we) (not (do? we))) 01:32:10 ( parenthicalicious, even ) 01:32:22 (ehird : "parenthetical", itym) 01:32:30 ski__: watch out for oerjan, by the way. he swats people indiscriminately. 01:32:30 it took me about 5 tries to say parenthicalicious 01:32:43 psygnisfive: it would be hard if you have a lisp 01:32:48 * ski__ wonders what "swat" means 01:32:54 he has a fly swatter. 01:32:56 (psygnisfive : btw, yes) 01:32:59 ehird: why? its only got one s! 01:33:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyswatter 01:33:14 he swats people with it. normally after they make a pun that's worse than one of his. 01:33:42 ehird: also, if you love parens, theres a book written by some crazy french person who's used so many parenthetical asides that the text is incomprehensible 01:33:52 psygnisfive: sounds excellent 01:33:56 what I want is a book that is just like 01:33:56 single sentences have upwards of like 7 or 8 nestings 01:33:59 Things happened.[1] 01:34:04 [1] Specific things[2], in fact[3]. 01:34:09 [2] These thin (blah blah) 01:34:12 [3] Where fact is subjective. 01:34:17 the whole book is just nested footnoes 01:34:17 the bottom most nestings being like.. paragraphs sometimes 01:34:19 *footnotes 01:34:28 for the whole book 01:34:33 top-down book writing :-D 01:34:37 ehird: well 01:34:39 if you like footnotes 01:34:40 there is Ibid 01:35:02 the whole book is a book of foot notes to a missing text 01:35:20 heh 01:35:24 well, endnotes. but still 01:35:35 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=2400949 01:35:59 wiki/index.html?curid=2400949? 01:36:02 theres another book that consists entirely of reviews of the book itself. 01:36:02 That's some old link. 01:36:07 ooh 01:36:11 douglas hofstadter had that idea 01:36:11 IIRC 01:36:15 in godel, escher, bach 01:36:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibid:_A_Life 01:36:29 actually, that might be where i got it from :) 01:36:49 i can never be sure, because goodness knows its not as tho some poet wouldn't make something like that 01:38:33 A Review: A Review. The review in question is an odd one, as it is entirely on the subject of itself. This creates an interesting metaness leaving no actual content beyond self-reference to the review. Wholly interesting. ***** 01:40:22 -!- moozilla has joined. 01:41:45 is this genuine? 01:41:47 %eval (i x) 01:41:47 x 01:41:58 psygnisfive: I just wrote it :) 01:42:00 -!- metazilla has joined. 01:42:02 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:42:02 :p 01:42:33 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:42:34 -!- moozilla has joined. 01:43:45 %eval (s (l (x) (l (y) he x y)) (l (x) x o) l) 01:43:46 ([l (x) (l (y) (l (z) ((x z) (y z))))] (l (x) (l (y) he x y)) (l (x) x o) l) 01:43:54 ok, that was wrong 01:44:12 %eval (i a) (i b) 01:44:12 Syntax error 01:44:15 %eval (i a)(i b) 01:44:15 Syntax error 01:44:24 %eval (i (i a) (i b)) 01:44:24 ([l (x) x] (i a) (i b)) 01:44:45 %eval (i (i a) (i b) (i c)) 01:44:46 ([l (x) x] (i a) (i b) (i c)) 01:44:49 %eval (l (i a) (i b) (i c)) 01:44:49 (l (i a) (i b) (i c)) 01:45:06 %eval (h (e l) (l o)) 01:45:07 (h (e l) (l o)) 01:45:12 %eval (h e l l o) 01:45:13 (h e l l o) 01:45:37 %eval (s (l (x) (l (y) (he x y))) (l (x) x o) l) 01:45:37 ([l (x) (l (y) (l (z) ((x z) (y z))))] (l (x) (l (y) (he x y))) (l (x) x o) l) 01:46:29 %eval (=) 01:46:29 (=) 01:46:34 %eval (.) 01:46:34 (.) 01:46:39 %eval (i.) 01:46:39 (i.) 01:46:41 %eval (i .) 01:46:41 . 01:46:48 what are you doing comex 01:46:53 just screwing around 01:47:06 %eval (f f f f f) 01:47:06 %eval (i ) 01:47:06 (f f f f f) 01:47:06 ([l (x) x]) 01:47:08 %eval (f f f f f f) 01:47:08 (f f f f f f) 01:47:10 %eval (f f f f) 01:47:11 (f f f f) 01:47:14 hrm. 01:47:17 fold is messed up :D 01:47:31 %eval (i) 01:47:32 ([l (x) x]) 01:47:36 %eval i 01:47:37 [l (x) x] 01:47:49 %eval l (x) (x) 01:47:50 Syntax error 01:47:59 %eval (l (x) (x)) (i) 01:47:59 Syntax error 01:48:03 %eval *(l (x) (x)) (i)) 01:48:03 Syntax error 01:48:05 %eval 9(l (x) (x)) (i)) 01:48:05 Syntax error 01:48:08 %eval 9(l (x) (x)) (i)) 01:48:08 Syntax error 01:48:10 oh my god 01:48:12 %eval ((l (x) (x)) (i)) 01:48:12 (([l (x) x])) 01:48:15 there we go 01:51:55 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:52:02 -!- moozilla has joined. 01:59:11 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:59:16 -!- moozilla has joined. 02:00:32 %eval (s (l (x) (l (y) he x y)) (l (x) x o) l) 02:00:33 ([l (x) (l (y) (l (z) ((x z) (y z))))] (l (x) (l (y) he x y)) (l (x) x o) l) 02:00:46 %eval (s (l (X) (l (Y) he X Y)) (l (X) X o) l) 02:00:46 ([l (x) (l (y) (l (z) ((x z) (y z))))] (l (X) (l (Y) he X Y)) (l (X) X o) l) 02:12:25 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:12:38 -!- melkonem has joined. 02:12:42 -!- melkonem has left (?). 02:13:15 -!- KajirBot has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:13:44 -!- seabot has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:50:30 -!- metazilla has joined. 02:51:22 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:51:32 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:51:35 -!- moozilla has joined. 02:57:54 -!- metazilla has joined. 02:58:01 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 03:04:07 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:04:09 -!- moozilla has joined. 03:04:41 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:04:44 -!- moozilla has joined. 03:06:56 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:06:59 -!- moozilla has joined. 03:15:40 -!- metazilla has joined. 03:15:41 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:15:46 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 03:16:15 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:16:19 -!- moozilla has joined. 03:24:21 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:25:29 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 03:30:57 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 05:00:31 -!- flexo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:04:57 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:04:58 -!- metazilla has joined. 05:18:54 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:18:56 -!- moozilla has joined. 05:19:27 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:19:34 -!- moozilla has joined. 05:31:53 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 05:46:19 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/muture.txt <<< psygnisfive, ais523 rev-enged it. 05:46:38 i saw 05:46:49 err 05:46:53 you did now? 05:46:58 yes :p 05:47:03 i looked through the logs and found it 05:47:05 that was like time ago 05:47:11 oh i see. 05:48:28 it looks very haskellish, obviously, but what im not sure about is the definition of sim 05:48:29 i should probably try to write a spec or something, muture i at least think i understand myself, as opposed to, say, contfuck and noprob. 05:48:44 i mean, on the one hand i sort of understand it 05:48:56 but you're missing a pattern 05:49:00 well it's more just general functional stuff with pattern matching. 05:49:07 | isn't what it is in haskell 05:49:10 it's an "or" 05:49:26 but not what "or" is in imperative langs ofc. more like "one of these, i dunno which" 05:49:33 namely, the definition where its not x:xs y:ys but rather where its nil y:ys or x:xs nil 05:50:04 yeah that's actually a bug, although less serious than you think 05:50:07 for instance, sim [1] [1,2] will fail when it gets to sim [] [2] 05:50:11 thanks, i'll fixor. 05:50:20 well no it won't fail 05:50:28 sure it will 05:50:31 it wont match either definition 05:50:40 it wont match sim [] [], nor sim x:xs y:ys 05:50:43 it will just be suboptimal because it'll have to match the last two elements together 05:50:45 so it just falls through 05:50:55 no no my point is 05:51:01 [] doesnt HAVE last two elements 05:51:09 well rrrright, if you call with exactly that 05:51:10 ot doesnt have any 05:51:16 so it wont match x:xs 05:51:18 yes, of course, that will fail. 05:51:30 so sim [] [1] will fail 05:52:13 yes. a minor bug though. 05:52:36 im also not entirely sure how your sim algorithm is supposed to work in full. what does it report for sim "a111" "111"? 05:52:41 but thanks for showing it, i never realized muture allows is robust enough to alow that 05:53:18 should report -1 05:53:39 interesting 05:54:06 yes, the gist of the language is ">>" means "maximize" ("<<" for "minimize", for completeness) 05:54:33 ?? 05:54:47 oh i see 05:54:50 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:54:53 -!- moozilla has joined. 05:54:58 >> sim "hed" x 05:55:14 with x as words 05:55:16 "maximize value of expression given all the possible nondeterminism allowed lol" 05:55:16 interesting 05:55:44 so its supposed to go through words, and find the one where sim "head" the_word is greatest 05:55:53 yep. 05:56:31 should be able to implement that with a search through the list and dynamic programming, in general it will do all kinds of search using the value of the expression as the heuristic. 05:57:05 err i need to go. lecture starts pretty sewn 05:57:19 see ya 05:58:27 decided to took one more course btw, "computer science and the society", who's a cute little masochist now, huh? 05:58:33 ... 05:58:34 *take 05:58:49 you darling :D 05:58:54 ::bite:: 06:34:12 -!- jix_ has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 06:41:54 he's MINE 06:44:15 he's ours, bitch 06:44:21 hmm 06:44:29 has anyone built a tag file system? 06:50:25 s/tag// 06:56:46 lolwut 07:00:01 has anyone here ever built a file system? 07:02:24 -!- jix has joined. 07:08:43 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:08:46 -!- jix has joined. 07:19:13 oh i didnt mean anyone HERE 07:19:15 i meant in general 07:54:36 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:11:45 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:11:51 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive. 08:34:41 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:35:12 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 08:37:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:41:54 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:49:39 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:06:03 -!- jix has joined. 09:09:06 {Marybelle} Hey all. I keep running into memory problems when querying a MySQL database. Any pointers? 09:10:52 MizardX what's the query? 09:15:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 09:22:59 MizardX, sure 0x3430536000 0x7fff0d6f2cb8 0x34304273c0 09:23:12 (kudos to xkcd) 09:30:47 -!- Corun has joined. 09:35:44 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----### 09:36:01 AnMaster: I don't get the reference 09:36:03 sorry, it's apparently become my job description 09:36:53 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:37:16 This means that if, for example, "Main Page" is the first random page on your list, "List of fictional monkeys" will *always* be second, "List of people on stamps of Vanuatu" third, etc. 09:40:50 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:41:17 -!- moozilla has joined. 09:43:17 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:43:44 -!- moozilla has joined. 09:46:11 -!- metazilla has joined. 09:46:15 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:46:24 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 09:46:46 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:46:49 -!- moozilla has joined. 09:50:51 -!- metazilla has joined. 09:50:52 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:51:02 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 09:56:17 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:01:04 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 10:08:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:12:14 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 10:20:21 -!- jix has joined. 10:34:16 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 11:24:20 AnMaster: I don't get the reference <-- hahah 11:24:40 (that was obviously a joke about C++ references) 11:53:34 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:02:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:02:05 afk 12:30:36 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:56:23 -!- jix has joined. 13:03:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:32:13 -!- ehird has joined. 13:34:44 hi ais523 13:45:43 duuude. 13:45:43 http://www.yucs.org/~gnivasch/life/article_cat/ 13:45:44 fucking. 13:45:45 duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude. 13:47:12 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:47:16 hi ehird 13:47:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 13:47:36 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 13:47:44 http://www.yucs.org/~gnivasch/life/article_cat/ 13:47:45 http://www.yucs.org/~gnivasch/life/article_cat/ 13:47:47 awesome. 13:50:05 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 13:52:30 -!- jix has joined. 14:13:55 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 14:53:17 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:05:53 * ehird switches browser. 15:05:59 For no discernable reason. 15:08:02 which browser are you using now? 15:08:15 Telnet. 15:08:15 * ais523 runs through some likely possibilities in their head 15:08:23 hmm... does Opera have a Mac version, I wonder? 15:08:30 also, browsing via Telnet is great, if a little slow 15:08:30 Ha. Bingo. 15:08:38 (I don't know why, I just realiased I never actually used Opera.) 15:08:57 I should try every browser in evolt.org's archive. 15:09:03 It even has the original TBL NextStep browser. 15:09:06 WorldWideWeb.app 15:09:08 what's Opera like? 15:09:31 ais523: Pretty ordinary, except it renders really fast. 15:09:42 And a lot of the HTML5 people work on it. 15:09:48 So it has a lot of support for that stuff. 15:11:08 I wonder if I could get nextstep working in a VM. 15:11:10 That'd be interesting 15:11:32 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:24:14 edbrowse is the standard! 15:24:22 oh lawd 15:30:33 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 15:37:09 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 15:55:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:55:45 "The application must insure that no other SQLite interfaces are invoked by other threads while sqlite3_config() is running. " <-- "insure"? Shouldn't that be "ensure"? 15:55:57 * AnMaster prods ehird 15:56:09 ais523, hello 15:56:21 ais523, also " AnMaster: I don't get the reference" was a C++ joke right? 15:56:35 no, it wasn't 15:56:48 AnMaster: ye. 15:56:49 *yes 15:56:51 to your former q 15:56:56 ais523, you don't know what xkcd strip I was talking about? 15:56:59 no, I don't 15:57:08 http://xkcd.com/138/ 15:57:09 I hardly know any XKCDs, apart from the ones which are linked nearly all the time 15:57:35 they should teach XKCD in school, it's needed to make any sense of the interent 15:57:39 you know the funny thing about people quoting xkcd verbatim all the time? 15:57:47 It has a strip exactly about the annoying people who do that. 15:57:55 ais523, :D 15:58:01 http://xkcd.com/16/ 15:58:34 ehird, Isn't that about quoting Monty Python? 15:58:34 ehird: that's about Monty Python, not xkcd 15:58:49 yeah, um, because the point it makes totally only applies specifically to monty python 15:59:04 not 15:59:28 ehird: it does, really 15:59:33 because the point is about surrealist humour 15:59:40 also that thing about the car accident makes no sense 15:59:43 so if you're quoting something that isn't surrealist humour, the point doesn't apply 15:59:50 < AnMaster> also that thing about the car accident makes no sense 15:59:55 nor does goddamn monty python 16:00:06 well true 16:00:11 that's the whole point 16:00:17 right 16:04:49 meanwhile 16:04:51 http://www.peta.org/sea_kittens/ 16:04:54 peta rebrands fish. 16:04:56 as sea kittens. 16:05:03 hilaripidity ensures 16:05:07 *ensues 16:05:09 hm 16:05:13 is anyone even paying attention to them on that? 16:05:17 Ooh, sea kittens 16:05:22 Must try those 16:05:25 who the heck is peta? 16:05:38 PETA are a bunch of fucked-up idiots. 16:05:49 Creepy "animal rights" extremists. 16:05:58 They acre more about animals than humans, and actually they don't care about animals. 16:06:00 Meh. 16:06:01 well what is wrong with animal rights? 16:06:07 Nothing. 16:06:08 Sea kittens aren't thhat great. 16:06:12 I prefer LAND FISH 16:06:12 I'm talking about PETA. 16:06:13 s/acre/care/ 16:06:14 I believe 16:06:18 They're so fuzzy and delicious 16:06:34 haha, I am so calling kittens land fish from now on 16:06:34 I prefer flying fish 16:06:55 ehird : Fry some up! 16:06:58 It's delicious 16:07:30 #esoteric: Talking about eating kittens since 2009 16:07:41 C'mon 16:07:43 This is #esoteric 16:07:48 I'm pretty sure we did it before 16:16:28 Fry how? RF EM radiation, IR EM radiation, heat, HVAC or HVDC? :-> 16:17:18 Fry with a regular frying pan, through thermal conduction 16:17:25 You know, phonon transmission. 16:19:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:20:43 http://isobamapresident.com/ 16:21:06 Oh shi- 16:21:14 Quick, let's nuke the US before the negro! 16:21:34 One of those troijan-spreading sites? 16:21:45 The very same 16:21:59 No. :P 16:24:33 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:28:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:31:42 I think #haskell has entered Eternal January. 16:32:18 I'm watching. It's cruel. 16:32:34 don't they know about ghci 16:33:10 15 year olds don't use ghci. It's an unwritten rule. 16:33:39 I think #haskell has entered Eternal January. <-- ? 16:33:50 AnMaster: irritating noob in #haskell. 16:33:59 ehird, also you are 13 and use ghc iirc? 16:34:06 possibly also ghci 16:34:19 I said 15 year olds. 16:34:21 Pay attention. 16:34:42 ehird, so you will stop when you are 15? 16:34:50 yes. Then restart again when 16 16:34:52 It is a law. 16:34:55 I would be killed if I did not. 16:35:02 ehird, unwritten one? 16:35:15 Yes. 16:35:22 mhm 16:37:42 ehird, also why "Eternal January", has this happened more than once? 16:41:35 no 16:41:39 its an eternal september ref 16:41:50 yes, but hopefully this will end soon 16:44:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:45:12 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:07:25 http://isobamapresident.com/ 17:07:26 It changed. 17:07:33 lulz geddit 17:07:35 i didn't even intend that 17:08:51 CHONGE 17:09:37 lulz geddit <-- ? 17:09:46 Changed. 17:09:49 Geddit? 17:09:52 Obama? Change? It changed? 17:09:54 Ahahrahrharhahrahr 17:10:07 ah 17:10:20 right, read that as gedit for some reason... 17:10:26 XD 17:10:29 which iirc is some gnome based editor 17:10:36 "Barack Obama has been president for 2009-1-20 12:07:00 GMT-05:00" <-- that makes no sense 17:11:10 doesn't say that for me 17:11:18 17:11:18 Barack Obama has been president for 4 minutes, 27 seconds 17:11:22 guess you need scripts 17:11:27 ah right 17:11:31 since it goes in realtime 17:12:32 "(Changed protection level for "Barack Obama": to prevent premature declarations of presidency ([edit=sysop] (expires 17:00, 20 January 2009 (UTC)) [move=sysop] (indefinite)))" 17:12:42 lol 17:12:51 lol 17:13:06 "BARACK OBAMA IS PRESIDENT" 17:13:09 "NO HE IS NOT THERE IS 5 SECONDS TO GO" 17:13:11 "REVERT" 17:13:22 ehird, actually it was edited 17:02: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&diff=265311244&oldid=265306761 17:13:26 "NOW HE IS" 17:13:28 "[CITATION NEEDED]" 17:13:37 "IM BARACK OBAMA THAT'S HOW I KNOW" 17:13:39 ehird, and that protection was done 30 minutes in advance 17:13:43 "ORIGINAL RESEARCH" 17:13:55 :D 17:14:17 "Is it in a scientific paper or a newspaper yet?" 17:14:18 "No?" 17:14:21 "Unverifiable." 17:15:40 ehird, oh also it seems he was sworn in 17:05 (UTC) so that meant there was somewhat of an edit war between 17:00 and 17:09 17:15:48 (yes 09 for some reason) 17:16:08 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&action=history <-- quite interesting 17:16:44 also the protection changes in it doesn't quite match up 17:18:26 what do you mean 17:18:45 '''Barack Hussein Obama II''' 17:18:49 lol 17:18:57 indeed "lol" 17:19:01 why would someone change it 17:19:11 also wtf is up with that II? He isn't royal 17:19:21 ... 17:19:26 eh? 17:19:39 I only ever seen numbers after the names used for royals 17:19:40 Someone call me when we've returned to intelligent discourse. 17:19:53 maybe some cultural thing 17:19:58 ehird, ? 17:21:31 I don't think so. 17:21:57 -!- ehird has quit ("Lost terminal"). 17:24:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:25:01 -!- ehird has joined. 17:25:19 ehird: i was just going to comment on your absense 17:26:17 heh curious you were only gone just as i joined 17:27:55 This means that if, for example, "Main Page" is the first random page on your list, "List of fictional monkeys" will *always* be second, "List of people on stamps of Vanuatu" third, etc. 17:28:04 wow the last one actually exists :D 17:28:27 the second one presumably exists too 17:28:34 I believe it is in fact telling the truth 17:28:39 rather than coming up with facetious examples 17:28:45 ic 17:29:30 um what is this about? random page selection being deterministic after the first page? 17:31:10 * oerjan googles 17:31:36 err 17:31:45 ais523, "random page"? 17:31:48 "always"? 17:31:54 no that makes no sense 17:32:02 yes it does 17:32:06 AnMaster: it's to do with the way the randomization works 17:32:13 page X always leads on to Y 17:32:15 ais523, you mean the random page link? 17:32:15 each page is given a random number 17:32:19 hm 17:32:29 http://wiki.creativecommons.org/api.php 17:32:31 if you generate one random page, you get a page whose random number is just above a random number 17:32:32 AnMaster: heard of pseudorandom number generators and the way they always give the same results for the same seed? 17:32:35 ais523, so random link from main page will always go to the same place? 17:32:37 Deewiant: it isn't that 17:32:41 AnMaster: no, not at all 17:32:46 generating one random page at a time, it's random 17:32:56 with differing probabilities for pages due to how the randomizer works 17:32:56 ais523: it's analogous, no? 17:33:02 Deewiant: no 17:33:05 let me explain the reason 17:33:06 meh 17:33:12 Deewiant, that would be too logical for mediawiki 17:33:18 if you generate multiples, to save server time, then it takes the first n pages above the randomly-generated number 17:33:20 AnMaster: actually, this _is_ logical. 17:33:29 also why on earth would mediawiki api need random page thing 17:33:34 ... 17:33:36 for random pages? 17:33:39 Hey just guessing! 17:33:41 so if main page is 0.5, then list of fictional monkeys is 0.50000000000000005 and list of people on stamps of Vanatu is 0.5000000000000059 17:33:43 or whatever 17:33:43 ehird, why would a bot need it 17:33:49 AnMaster: random page patrolling? 17:33:50 not a bot. 17:33:54 this is for things using the api 17:33:58 like gregorr's Five Clicks to Jesus 17:33:59 ais523, that would surely miss lots of pages 17:34:01 that uses random pages 17:34:17 ehird, also iirc the bot is mainly for the wiki bots? 17:34:27 the API is for anything. 17:34:31 I mean the original intention 17:34:37 sure you can use it for other stuff 17:34:56 AnMaster: I don't get the reference <-- hahah 17:34:57 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 17:35:06 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 17:35:09 AnMaster gets a joke i didn't? what is the world coming to 17:35:11 oerjan: is there some joke in that line I'm missing? 17:35:25 AnMaster explained the pun he thought I'd added there, but it was unintentional 17:35:25 oerjan, yes I thought it was a joke about C++ &-style references 17:35:30 wait he gets a _non-existing_ joke? 17:35:43 oerjan: well, it explains why you didn't get it 17:35:44 negative sense of humour 17:35:49 ais523: heh, it was obvious after he pointed it out 17:35:50 _D 17:35:51 :D* 17:36:00 * AnMaster wonders what the smiley _D means 17:36:47 a smiling person who's just been stamped on by an elephant 17:36:54 why are they smiling 17:37:08 they didn't see it coming, naturally 17:37:18 *stomped 17:37:22 oerjan, wouldn't they stop smiling after? 17:37:28 very quickly I mean 17:37:58 how do you stop smiling when your brain is crushed? duh. 17:38:03 oh right 17:38:11 oerjan, yeah I guess it is always fatal 17:38:16 maybe it's a gentle elephant 17:38:18 non-fatal 17:38:34 ehird, or a small one 17:39:03 aww. cute tiny elephant kitten. 17:39:09 who's an elephant kitten? YOU ARE! 17:39:16 you're a good little elephant kitten. yeeeeeeees! 17:39:19 ehird, like Garfield? 17:39:28 ... 17:39:36 I am ashamed of this channel. 17:39:40 But mostly you/ 17:39:44 s/\/$/./ 17:39:45 * AnMaster has decided to always talk about Garfield when someone mentions "cute kitten" 17:39:56 just because I'm tried of that thing 17:40:05 AnMaster: you mean to change the subject quickly? 17:40:09 seriously, what about cute dogs? It is time for a change! 17:40:15 dogs are not cute. 17:40:22 but kittens? 17:40:23 yes they are. 17:40:26 oerjan, certainly, and get rid of lolcats too 17:40:27 You're a kitty cat! YES YOU ARE. 17:41:39 hm 17:41:40 *land fish 17:41:49 o yes 17:41:53 is it possible to have two keyboard attached that are on different keyboard layout? 17:42:01 say, one dvorak, and one qwerty 17:42:05 Ew. 17:42:15 5. MOST VAMPIRES DON'™T EVEN KNOW IF THEY ARE VAMPIRES! 17:42:16 -- http://www.trueghosttales.com/paranormal/do-vampires-exist/ 17:42:34 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 17:42:34 -_- 17:43:17 ehird, is that a parody site? 17:43:24 Nope. 17:43:35 ok, then it is really fucked up 17:43:40 i have a slight suspicion i might be a vampire 17:43:47 oerjan: Here's how to tell: 17:43:52 i sunburn so darn easily 17:43:53 1. Do you know if you're a vampire? 17:43:55 Yes: You are not a vampire. 17:43:58 No: You are a vampire! 17:44:09 :D 17:44:33 oerjan, do you like raw meat? 17:44:43 hm not particularly 17:44:59 oerjan, what about blood? Like "blodpudding" 17:45:06 don't know English word for that 17:45:08 yummy! 17:45:17 oerjan, it exists in Norway too? 17:45:20 i guess that settles it 17:45:21 it is horrible I think 17:45:24 black pudding? 17:45:32 ehird, possible 17:45:33 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_pudding 17:45:39 ehird: something like that 17:45:45 * ehird vomits 17:45:50 i suppose the recipe varies 17:45:53 yes something like that 17:45:57 ehird, I agree 17:45:58 fully 17:55:14 arguably though, Haggis is worse. I wouldn't eat any of it though... 17:55:30 adimit, what about surströmming or lutfisk? 17:55:42 mm, lutefisk 17:55:50 oerjan, you can't mean that 17:55:54 yes i do 17:56:36 -!- appletizer has joined. 17:57:00 does this channel happen to discuss real-time coding too? :) 17:57:47 why would it? 17:58:01 otoh i won't eat cod tongue, which the rest of the family eats 17:58:32 hi appletizer 17:58:33 and i've got a cousin who won't eat lutefisk 17:58:34 define real time coding 17:58:36 hey ehird 17:58:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_computing 17:58:56 or -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_programming_language 17:59:01 ok, hows that relevant to this channel? :P 17:59:06 AnMaster: nothing compares to Hakarl. 17:59:09 coding != computing, real time coding would be writing when you write 17:59:11 lol is esoteric the name of a language or? 17:59:11 or something 17:59:12 :D 17:59:13 well, a real time esolang would be kind-of interesting 17:59:19 appletizer: no 17:59:23 i assume that esoteric meant less-known languages no other channels discuss :P 17:59:26 appletizer: [[e:Esoteric programming language]] 17:59:28 appletizer: yes 17:59:29 kind of 17:59:31 ais523, fail 17:59:31 appletizer: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language 17:59:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esolang 17:59:33 and since real-time are esoteric by that nature... :) 17:59:35 ah 17:59:38 whoops, messed up shortcut 17:59:46 well, esolangs tend to be even weirder than that 17:59:56 less-known languages that were deliberately designed to be lesser-known 18:00:00 i would assume it would include things like esterel etc :) 18:00:09 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esterel 18:00:09 appletizer: esterel? 18:00:12 hmm... this goes back to the old argument about BANCStar 18:00:16 * ehird looks 18:00:23 a synchronous programming lang for real-time applications 18:00:25 appletizer: well, if you're interested in odd programming languages you'll definitely fit in 18:00:29 we're pretty lax about our topics here 18:00:44 Esterel looks to me like an unintentionally esoteric language 18:00:48 it takes itself far too seriously 18:00:56 but then, the BANCStars of this world are great to talk about 18:01:01 um, real-time languages have real use cases. 18:01:11 ehird: yes 18:01:15 lol they usually do, RT codes are used in nuclear reactors to more mundanes like neurophysiological measurements 18:01:16 so does Thutu, but I wouldn't call that non-esoteric 18:01:48 I could never code something for a nuclear reactor or a hospital. 18:01:52 That's far too much responsibility :P 18:02:00 and you wouldn't in an esolang 18:02:06 they're mostly deliberately designed to be impractical 18:02:08 although a few aren't 18:02:16 Underlambda, for instance, when I get round to speccing it 18:02:50 ^bf ,[.,]!Hello appletizer! 18:02:50 Hello appletizer! 18:02:51 ais523, what about feather? It could be both :P 18:02:58 AnMaster: ah, Feather 18:03:06 ais523, encode the string in bf directly 18:03:17 please, don't mention it in front of people who haven't heard of it already, it gives me headaches just thinking about it 18:03:21 let alone trying to explain it 18:03:28 oh sorry 18:03:40 fungot: say hello to appletizer 18:03:41 ehird: but i must admit, i haven't have an epiphany about those :p. 18:03:41 let alone trying to /implement/ it 18:03:44 fungot: say hello to appletizer 18:03:45 which i still want to do some way 18:03:45 ehird: the better way is to grovel through the package underlying the srfi-26 structure by opening it or opening a structure that includes a predicate to test if elements are lists or non-empty strings or vectors of arbitrary sizes. 18:03:48 meh. 18:04:01 ^ul (Hello appletizer!)S 18:04:01 hey ais523! :) 18:04:01 Hello appletizer! 18:04:07 and fungot! <- is he a bot? :P 18:04:08 appletizer: " the structure with the associated code in isolation seems to work fine 18:04:11 ehird: and that Underload was not cheating 18:04:16 appletizer: yes, written in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge 18:04:17 -!- Slereah has joined. 18:04:21 nice :) 18:04:26 one of the most practical esolangs around 18:04:29 which is to say, not very 18:04:46 appletizer: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 18:04:47 ehird: you have no imagination?) 18:04:52 Cover your eyes. 18:05:09 I'd tell you about the goat you have to sacrifice but I think looking at fungot will do 18:05:10 ehird: i guess i really should finish sicp. time for sleep for me. what i also need to understand my brain because i have an idea... a quine in 18:05:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:05:51 woah ehird, that's the most convoluted coding if i've ever seen one :) 18:06:07 appletizer, I have seen worse 18:06:10 and Befunge is one of the more readable esolangs 18:07:30 Not all esolangs are just about syntax :P 18:07:39 indeed 18:08:17 ehird, you mean like Feather? ;P 18:08:18 which doesn't even have an official syntax yet? 18:08:20 actually that is only about syntax kind of 18:08:35 incidentally, my guiding goal for Feather starting syntax is "looks vaguely like Smalltalk, but for different reasons" 18:08:40 (in a not very much so kind of not kind of way) 18:09:00 ais523, oh, interesting, I would never have ended up with feather by that 18:10:12 appletizer, also I hope you realise by now this is not the right place to be serious (well not be serious seriously anyway, you can of course be serious in a not very serious way, such as java2k) 18:10:32 http://p-nand-q.com/humor/programming_languages/java2k.html 18:10:36 lol AnMaster, yeah i sorta figured, though it could be cool if i bumped into some RT-ers :) 18:10:51 i guess this would be the place for brainfuck and the likes :) 18:10:55 well, ais523 is working with some VHDL thing on the side. 18:11:01 that is kind of RT I guess 18:11:07 not the way you meant it though 18:11:25 AnMaster: that isn't related to esolangs, but to my RL work 18:11:31 ais523, yes true 18:11:38 it is rather weird, though, serious but weird, just like appletizer's realtime langs 18:11:41 ais523, but would you call it "real time"? 18:11:59 AnMaster: no, well arguably yes 18:12:03 it can be very very realtime 18:12:11 real spacetime :D 18:12:13 the fact that it has sleep-for-femtoseconds commands backs that up 18:12:21 WAIT FOR 1 fs; 18:12:24 ais523, indeed. 18:12:51 wait a sec. femtosecond would need the circuit to operate at a very high speed? 18:13:12 circuits do operate at a very high speed 18:13:28 how many Mhz do you need to get one cycle = 1 fs? 18:13:35 AnMaster: loads 18:13:41 -!- FireFly has joined. 18:13:45 but 1fs is too fast even for VHDL-generated code 18:13:47 ais523, THz or something? 18:13:49 it's just there as a catchall option, I think 18:13:55 picoseconds are more commonly used 18:14:13 well I guess you could want sub-cycle 18:14:20 for some stuff 18:14:38 AnMaster: this is sub-cycle 18:14:43 it's to do with decompiled code 18:14:48 mhm? 18:14:58 basically, it measures the lengths of the actual wires 18:15:00 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Connection timed out). 18:15:03 and puts delays on accordingly 18:15:06 so you can simulate properly 18:15:15 appletizer, take a look at that link btw 18:15:37 appletizer: I recommend you ignore AnMaster. 18:15:38 :-D 18:15:41 yes that makes sense 18:15:43 meh, Java2K isn't really that interesting 18:15:55 and it's worth pointing out that AnMaster and ehird are both upstanding and fine members of this channel 18:15:56 ais523, no but it's introduction is 18:16:03 wait, I'm upstanding and fine? 18:16:03 but somehow end up bickering when you leave them in the same channel together 18:16:04 goddamn! 18:16:06 what have I been doing wrong?! 18:16:11 ehird: well, for you it's more dubious 18:16:16 ehird :D 18:16:40 why does this worry me: "NEW VERSION 7.3 PRE-GAMMA RELEASED EARLY 2004, with a completely new interpreter written in Python. Finally, it is safe to embed Python in Webpages!" 18:17:05 ais523, indeed, ehird is "fine" but not "upstanding". He said himself he was short. 18:17:14 while I'm rather tall 18:17:22 ais523: whaaaaaaaaat 18:17:29 what's this for 18:17:33 ehird, Java2k 18:17:34 ehird: from the Java2K page AnMaster linked 18:17:37 you forgot to click the link 18:17:39 oh, ha 18:17:39 ;Å 18:17:41 ;P* 18:17:51 AnMaster: "upstanding" is about vector direction, not magnitude 18:18:14 oerjan, well that makes less sense in this context. 18:19:00 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 18:19:14 AnMaster: he _could_ be reclining 18:19:22 oerjan, subjective gravity? Sure some relativistic effects could maybe cause it, but this doesn't make sense for the rather "non-extreme" properties of this place 18:19:52 gah, bad lag... 18:21:02 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:25:25 I just had an idea for a horrible joke if anyone is interested. 18:25:26 :D 18:25:50 actually a slogan kind of. 18:26:06 nonononono 18:26:11 (and totally unrelated to the current convo) 18:26:17 ehird, yesyesyes 18:26:25 * AnMaster prods oerjan and ais523 18:26:39 * ais523 objects to the deletion 18:26:40 aha AnMaster 18:26:51 i just looked at the article, nice one :) 18:26:54 also maybe bad taste 18:27:01 lol ehird 18:27:06 ais523, also what deletion? 18:27:11 AnMaster: it's a Wikipedia pun 18:27:16 oh ok 18:27:22 oerjan will be deleted in 5 days if nobody objects 18:27:25 anyway, here it comes: 18:27:26 China: Democracy considered harmful. 18:27:28 * oerjan prepares ye olde swatter 18:27:42 brb (popping out for awhile) 18:27:42 * AnMaster prepares to dodge 18:28:01 wait what 18:28:01 AnMaster: that wasn't even funny 18:28:06 ehird, indeed. 18:28:15 that's not even worth a swat 18:28:26 the problem is that watching AnMaster trying to make a joke is in fact very funny 18:28:27 Hey guys! I made a joke! AnMaster. 18:28:27 even if the jokes arent 18:28:31 oerjan, exactly. I'm testing how low one can sink when it comes to humor 18:28:31 see, that was funny. 18:28:33 so it serves the intended purpose 18:28:40 * oerjan swats ehird -----### 18:28:47 oerjan, this is a scientific study 18:28:53 oerjan: does the swatter need to be used before you can put it away 18:28:59 kind-of like some D&D artifact swords? 18:29:17 oerjan NEVER puts his swatter away 18:29:35 I reckon he has it in some kind of quick-draw holster 18:30:11 ais523: probably. 18:30:19 ha 18:31:32 * AnMaster imagines replacing "gun" with "swatter" in a old Clint Eastwood movie 18:31:45 * oerjan chuckles 18:32:00 an* 18:32:00 btw 18:32:02 Should I link to the obligatory bash? 18:32:05 that sounds like something Larson would draw 18:32:14 oerjan, Larson? 18:32:23 Larson who? 18:32:24 Okay then. 18:32:25 http://bash.org/?111338 18:32:26 ehird: probably, I'm sufficiently Internet-insulated to miss all the obligatory quotes 18:32:27 replacing gun with swatter in the good, bad, ugly climax scene? 18:32:33 ais523: it's not exactly SFW. 18:32:37 Well, text can't be NSFW/ 18:32:41 Gary Larson 18:32:42 but there you go 18:32:47 oerjan, no idea who that is 18:32:51 ehird: actually I've seen that one before 18:33:11 AnMaster: in that case your total lack of humor is no longer surprising 18:33:47 actually, *would have drawn, since he quit in the middle nineties 18:33:53 oerjan, wait the name does sound slightly familiar 18:34:02 -!- jix has joined. 18:34:33 ah yes I have seen that strip once I think 18:34:53 oerjan, yes when I see the some of the google image results it looks slightly familiar 18:36:40 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 18:36:54 -!- jix has joined. 18:37:16 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:38:14 http://bash.org/?875652 I predict that one day, this quote will be in the top 100 of bash. 18:38:28 ehird: what's it about? 18:38:32 evil. 18:38:35 just asking this time in case it's an ASCII art goatse or something 18:38:47 I doubt that would be accepted by the moderators 18:39:28 ehird: you aren't giving much info 18:39:28 I don't know how to interpret "evil" here 18:39:37 it's not anything like that. 18:39:38 it's text. 18:39:39 :P 18:40:34 hmm... 18:40:46 surely the obvious answer is to report the person who set up the complicated scenario to the police? 18:41:13 or possibly interfere while they're trying to set it up? 18:41:23 I don't know, I mean, bacon. 18:41:30 If you did that you might miss out on bacon. 18:41:37 I can get my own bacon 18:41:41 Perhaps you can't. 18:41:44 Perhaps it is the last bacon left in the world. 18:41:47 Had you considered that? 18:41:49 this would be a "trilemma"? 18:41:53 ehird: no, because it's a silly consideration 18:41:54 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Success). 18:41:54 AnMaster: groan 18:42:09 ehird, actually I mean it, "dilemma" is for two options 18:42:18 clearly you can't use it when there are three options 18:43:07 AnMaster: how is it a dilemma or trilemma... like you can get bacon... 18:43:17 Perhaps you can't. 18:43:26 AnMaster: if you chose bacon i mean 18:43:27 also I would save the person 18:43:51 and then as ais523 said, report this to the police 18:44:11 when the police comes they'll just eat the bacon 18:44:19 I think you could save the person by shouting "Look out, there's a tripwire" 18:44:22 AnMaster: save a person over kittens and bacon? 18:44:23 while you were going to save the kittens 18:44:26 You're inhumane. 18:44:32 jix, yes and? I can live without bacon 18:44:40 No. 18:44:42 Nobody can. 18:44:48 That's simply _impossible_. 18:44:53 ehird, I don't even like bacon 18:44:53 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 18:44:53 ... 18:44:59 Two basic needs: water, and bacon. 18:45:09 ehird, what about air? 18:45:21 AnMaster: think of fish! 18:45:28 AnMaster: no 18:45:29 jix, yes and? 18:45:31 bacon serves as air. 18:45:45 stop being that silly 18:45:53 ais523, btw how goes ick development now 18:45:54 ? 18:45:54 #esoteric 18:45:57 don't be silly 18:45:58 => gtfo 18:47:06 AnMaster: very busy in RL atm 18:47:07 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:47:14 so no big improvements 18:47:18 apart from the repo now being online 18:47:21 also: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/polls/poll0248.html 18:47:48 ehird: Osama bin Laden disagrees with you on the bacon issue 18:48:16 AnMaster: that's quite some question 18:48:16 Osama bin Laden is an anti-bacon extremist 18:48:25 ais523, yes and the answers are funny too 18:48:56 ehird: true, true 18:50:30 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:52:37 ehird, um all the vegetarians doesn't eat any bacon 18:52:57 no, they do 18:52:58 secretly 18:53:22 also I don't eat bacon, I do eat meat though 18:53:25 but not bacon 18:53:31 liar 18:53:36 I do eat bacon sometimes 18:53:39 ehird, [citation needed] 18:53:43 no, AnMaster 18:53:45 you are a liar. 18:53:50 but I wouldn't eat bacon over saving a person 18:53:51 ehird, prove it 18:53:54 i don't t alk to liars. 18:53:59 as for saving the kittens, I tend to get confused by Rube Goldberg machines 18:54:05 but I'd probably manage it if I came to in time 18:54:19 i'd feed the kittens to the human to give them the strength to escape 18:54:22 then share the bacon with them 18:54:25 ais523, hm RUBE is a nice lang 18:55:06 ehird: *feed the kittens with the human? 18:55:29 ais523: either 18:55:32 :P 18:55:39 i don't think kitties eat bacon though. 18:55:42 maybe they do. 18:55:45 cats eat meat 18:55:46 why not bacon? 18:55:52 bacon is not meat, silly. 19:02:26 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:02:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:04:20 -!- MigoMipo has changed nick to ZetroFly. 19:04:24 -!- ZetroFly has left (?). 19:05:29 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 19:06:06 -!- FireFly has changed nick to MigoMipo. 19:06:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has changed nick to FireFly. 19:08:21 -!- MigoMipo has changed nick to Zetro. 19:08:27 -!- FireFly has changed nick to MigoMipo. 19:08:45 O_O 19:09:11 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:10:19 crazy swedes 19:11:29 -!- FireyFly has joined. 19:12:31 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to Wamanuz. 19:14:39 -!- MigoMipo has changed nick to SuperUltraMegaMa. 19:14:47 -!- SuperUltraMegaMa has changed nick to SuperUltraMario. 19:15:08 -!- SuperUltraMario has changed nick to BeholdMyBot. 19:15:18 -!- Wamanuz has changed nick to Eldflugan. 19:15:27 -!- BeholdMyBot has changed nick to Wamanuz. 19:15:33 -!- Eldflugan has changed nick to BeholdMyBot. 19:24:09 -!- Wamanuz has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 19:24:52 -!- BeholdMyBot has changed nick to Wamanuz. 19:25:46 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:27:46 I'm sorry for the nick war earlier. 19:28:15 i see. 19:28:16 It got quite silly at an another channel, and we probably forgot that it would mess up other channels. 19:28:33 -!- ehird has set topic: IAmGreenAndAlsoFortunate. 19:28:35 rt 19:28:38 -!- ehird has changed nick to IAmGreenAndAlsoF. 19:28:39 *er 19:28:53 Notify] ehird went offline (irc.freenode.net). 19:28:56 client fail... 19:31:13 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:33:25 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 19:33:45 -!- Wamanuz has changed nick to FireFly. 19:34:01 * oerjan swats FireFly -----### 19:34:04 :< 19:34:49 MigoMipo: which channel? 19:35:15 ais523: our "private" at ##tullinge. 19:37:07 incidentally, "tulling" means stupid person in norwegian :D 19:37:15 I know :< 19:37:47 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:38:41 -!- IAmGreenAndAlsoF has set topic: Tullings. 19:39:25 -!- ais523 has set topic: Tullings | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 19:39:41 IAmGreenAndAlsoF: what does the F stand for? 19:39:51 * ais523 guesses furious for no particular reason 19:40:07 MigoMipo, hm? who are you? 19:40:16 AnMaster: a person, stop asking people that 19:40:30 ais523: 19:40:30 19:28 -!- ehird changed the topic of #esoteric to: IAmGreenAndAlsoFortunate 19:40:43 hooray for typos 19:40:53 well MigoMipo is new here isn't (s)he? 19:40:58 you typoed /nick for /topic? 19:41:01 Yep, he is 19:41:20 FireFly, also why did he join and excuse for the nick war? 19:41:34 -!- olsner has joined. 19:41:35 AnMaster: stop questioning people liek that 19:41:36 sheesh 19:41:50 IAmGreenAndAlsoF, why? why not? 19:42:08 AnMaster:Because apologies are a good thing. 19:42:21 well, what prompted you to join here... 19:42:28 :) 19:42:28 hes been in here for days 19:42:32 shut upppppppppp 19:42:34 AnMaster is slow 19:42:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:42:38 * AnMaster looks in scrollback 19:42:47 * MigoMipo (n=MigoMipo@84-217-3-141.tn.glocalnet.net) has joined #esoteric <-- ? 19:42:55 ... 19:42:56 everyone expects the AnMaster inquisition 19:42:57 he's been COMING HERE 19:42:58 for DAYS 19:43:03 IAmGreenAndAlsoF, I just connected to bnc then. 19:43:09 ... and? 19:43:09 Agreed, oerjan 19:43:10 * AnMaster just rebooted 19:43:12 who cares? How is that relevant? 19:43:27 IAmGreenAndAlsoF, well, whatever happened after made no sense 19:43:30 * AnMaster goes reading logs 19:43:50 it made perfect sense unless you're AnMaster 19:44:03 In Soviet Russia, you make no sense to this joke 19:44:10 IAmGreenAndAlsoF, that is only because you are ehird 19:44:24 AnMaster: everyone else seems to be having no trouble whatsoever understanding it. 19:44:36 IAmGreenAndAlsoF, well it makes more sense after reading logs 19:45:18 Whats the point of this anyway? 19:45:23 none? 19:45:30 Or, null 19:45:35 MigoMipo: AnMaster likes interrogating people. 19:45:43 IAmGreenAndAlsoF, you just made that up 19:45:47 [citation needed] 19:45:49 Truly. 19:46:00 IAmGreenAndAlsoF, so? 19:46:05 *shrug* 19:46:41 afk 19:52:55 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:52:56 -!- adimit has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:10:26 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 20:10:26 -!- adimit has joined. 20:24:31 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 20:27:46 -!- appletizer has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:33:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:38:35 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:51:28 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 21:32:20 http://www.kongregate.com/games/squidsquid/the-irregulargame-of-life <-- amusing 21:33:33 Found out about that one in school a few months ago 21:34:11 lol, a you have to burn the rope reference 21:52:13 -!- Zetro has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:59:38 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:11:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("hejdå ^^"). 22:21:53 "we have no doubt that Gdrive will become holy grail for privacy advocates around the world." 22:21:57 "I am high as a kite." 22:21:59 -> 22:42:29 * ski__ wonders what the "map" is supposed to show 22:44:47 hey guys 22:55:24 ski__: translation to english :P 22:59:47 i was refering to 22:59:51 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- [#esoteric] Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Check out the esoteric programmers map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang 23:00:06 ah. 23:00:08 enable javascript 23:00:19 it's a map of the world with little pins for #esoteric denizens 23:00:20 my w3m comes with no javascript 23:00:27 then tough :) 23:00:36 you're not missing much tbh 23:01:11 ok 23:12:41 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 23:21:07 -!- Corun has joined. 23:23:23 -!- FireFly has quit ("Brb irl"). 23:29:33 -!- Dewi has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:29:42 -!- Dewi has joined. 23:31:20 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 23:32:53 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:45:39 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:53:57 http://www.kongregate.com/games/squidsquid/the-irregulargame-of-life <<< how utterly boring levels. ofc i doubt you could do much better, gol needs a crapload of bloat until you get to actually interesting stuff, like most automatons, they aren't very puzzly, more programmy. 23:59:32 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 2009-01-21: 00:04:14 oklopol: it's fun. 00:07:26 IAmGreenAndAlsoF: i didn't read logs, are you ehird? 00:07:47 yes. 00:08:32 k. well. it's not very fun, it's mainly about doing simple arithmetic 00:08:34 well 00:08:47 okay, i'm only at level 33 sofar, because it's not very interesting. 00:08:53 "only" 00:08:54 :-D 00:08:58 hey oklopol 00:09:00 DOT ACTION 2 00:09:26 well i did the levels before it on ~5 attempts, it's not like it took that long 00:09:39 yeah i've been thinking i should continue that 00:09:47 :DD 00:09:52 oklopol: you should write INFINITE ACTION 00:09:57 unfortunately: when :|||||||| 00:09:58 which generates progressively harder dot action levels 00:09:59 FOREVER 00:10:18 i mean i took this electronics course 00:10:26 because i just take all kinds of random courses 00:10:31 and i don't know fuck about physics. 00:10:56 and the book is a scanned copy, because i'm sure as hell not gonna buy it 00:11:03 not all that fun to read 00:11:24 and i need to read quite a lot of it till friday 00:11:49 i need more time 00:11:52 gimme gimme gimme 00:12:27 oklopol: here's some time 00:19:51 okay not arithmetic as such, the puzzles are about subset sum 00:27:52 finished the game 00:27:56 that was kinda pointless. 00:28:08 and i don't call pointless easily. 00:38:40 :D 01:04:13 What's the maximum acceleration a person could survive for an extended period ... obviously if you were in a spaceship accelerating at 1G indefinitely it would be perfectly comfortable, but how high does it get before people start bleeding and turning into pancakemen... 01:04:28 green 01:08:39 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 01:16:41 GregorR: wut? 01:17:45 If you were in a spaceship accelerating at 1G, it would feel just like gravity (but take a lot more energy). What's the maximum acceleration a ship could maintain for long periods before its human occupants go *squish* after fairly long periods of time? 01:21:53 ...why would they go squish? 01:24:08 ... seriously? 01:24:15 I'm talking about acceleration, not velocity. 01:25:35 umm kay. that's what i thought you said. 01:28:47 GregorR: can you teach me the physics that lead to the squishing? 01:29:35 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:30:22 All objects in motion have a tendency to stay in motion, and all objects at rest have a tendency to stay at rest. If you push on them to force them not to stay in motion/at rest, they will push back (every action has an equal and opposite reaction). When your body pushes back with, say, 100Gs of force, it will most certainly not remain a body for long. 01:35:16 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:41:13 If your velocity is 0.99999999999999999999999973c, you'll get to the Andromeda galaxy in ten minutes 8-D 01:44:02 and if it's c, you'll already be there 01:44:51 Whoops, miscalculation, make that v = 0.999999999999999999999972c (one more 9) 01:44:56 BUT IF IT'S C++, YOU'LL PROBABLY *insert something funny * 01:45:11 ...in you ass 01:46:59 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:50:41 -!- IAmGreenAndAlsoF has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:53:14 GregorR: 10 minutes on a clock inside or outside the vehicle? 01:53:23 Inside of course. 01:53:41 2.5 million years will have passed outside. 01:53:43 MizardX: galaxies aren't exactly 10 light years away 01:54:18 (the milky way is not very far away) 01:54:26 X-P 01:54:55 ski__: what a significant point to make 01:54:58 :o 01:55:24 not that significant, i admit 01:55:43 so err 01:55:47 _ is application? 01:55:53 and it's reversed 01:56:04 ski__ = ``iks = `ks 01:56:11 = sk_ 01:56:42 that might have been 01:56:54 WHY IS YOUR NICK NOT IN NORMAL FORM? 01:57:16 -!- oklopol has changed nick to kllooop. 01:57:19 ask freenode why you can't be in more than 20 channels ? 01:57:50 that's a pretty omnipresent rule 01:57:57 -!- kllooop has changed nick to oklopoll. 01:58:00 ... 01:58:01 typo 01:58:07 and by that i mean quakenet has the same limit 01:58:36 it's probably so you'll have to choose, they want to teach you not to be greedy 01:58:39 (my "real" nick is `ski', btw) 01:59:05 i know i'm a #haskell regular idler 01:59:16 ok 01:59:33 i'm assuming it's combinators and not, say, skiing? 01:59:58 yes 02:00:26 you're .se so i had to check 02:01:06 (i couldn't come up with anything less silly when i started with irc in c:a 2000) 02:01:42 well you could've use something that actually did something. except i'm not sure how much you can do without parens 02:02:07 interesting question though, what can you do? 02:03:22 well. i have a lecture in 4 hours, better have some sleep now prolly 02:03:23 -> 02:03:25 istr someone wrote a basic concatenative EDSL in haskell, using only application for composition of words 02:03:57 possibly one could do something similar in combinatory logic, if one defined a few appropriate combinators 02:04:08 ok 02:04:15 err 02:04:22 oh 02:04:38 edsl? 02:04:47 like e-dsl? 02:04:47 :P 02:04:49 Embedded Domain Specific Language 02:05:08 oh. right. 02:05:48 now seriously -> 02:05:56 * ski__ idly wonders what oklopoll has lecture in .. 02:06:21 ...calculus 02:06:25 (ok, bye, get some sleep :) 02:06:29 trying! 02:07:10 * oklopoll goes once more 02:51:53 ski = i. 02:52:05 I don't like sk = ki. Let's change it. 02:52:45 %eval (e (s k) (k i) (Darn.) (Celebrate! Ponies and flowers and cuddles.)) 02:52:46 (Celebrate! Ponies and flowers and cuddles.) 02:52:53 Hey, they're not equal after all. 02:53:02 %eval (s k) 02:53:03 [l (y) (l (z) ((k z) (y z)))] 02:53:07 %eval (k i) 02:53:08 [l (y) i] 02:53:28 %eval i 02:53:29 [l (x) x] 02:53:40 %eval ((k z) (y z)) 02:53:40 z 02:53:51 %eval (l (z) z) 02:53:51 [l (z) z] 02:54:47 Therefore, (s k) = [l (y) [l (z) z]] and (k i) = [l (y) [l (x) x]], if you evaluate subexpressions that are eventually going to be evaluated anyway. 02:55:16 %eval (hold ((s k) x) ((s k) z) ((k i) x) ((k i) z)) 02:55:16 (hold ((s k) x) ((s k) z) ((k i) x) ((k i) z)) 02:55:23 Meh. 02:55:32 %eval ((s k) x) 02:55:33 [l (z) ((k z) (x z))] 02:55:49 %eval (((s k) x) N) 02:55:49 N 02:55:52 %eval (((s k) z) N) 02:55:52 N 02:55:58 %eval (((k i) x) N) 02:55:58 N 02:56:01 %eval (((k i) z) N) 02:56:01 N 02:56:08 Wow, I didn't expect that. 02:56:27 %eval (((s k) y) N) 02:56:27 N 02:56:30 %eval (((k i) y) N) 02:56:30 N 04:26:56 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to bsmntbombgirl. 04:55:41 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 05:06:07 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 05:09:11 -!- MizardX has joined. 05:28:13 Wow, NOBODY understands length contraction (or I don't, but I really think I'm right here :P ) 05:29:25 Oh, relativity. 05:34:24 space-time bends by the effect of speed alone... 06:26:38 Space time bends for the slightest thing, MizardX. 06:35:13 Space-time doesn't bend, that implies that it's a global phenomenon. Space-time is perceived differently from different [inertial] reference frames. 06:38:02 -!- oklopoll has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 06:40:04 THERE IS NO SPACETIME 06:40:51 There is no Earth, there is no solar system, there is no galaxy, there is no space time. There is only one truth: There is only the spoon. 06:42:19 precisely 06:42:25 and its too big :( 06:50:49 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:50:59 -!- moozilla has joined. 06:54:05 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:05:16 I've heard that Uri Geller can bend the space-time with his mind only. 07:12:12 it's true 07:14:41 Yay f**ed up relativity: to get to a location that's N lightyears away in N years (yes, N==N), how fast do you need to go? Answer: sqrt(0.5) times the speed of light GWAR 07:14:55 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:17:17 but how much time would that be from a bystander's perspective? :) 07:41:43 GWAR! 07:53:20 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:06 N * sqrt(2) years? 08:19:16 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 08:38:56 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:46:27 well you could've use something that actually did something. except i'm not sure how much you can do without parens 08:46:51 hm. starting with i or k is uninteresting 08:47:07 sk is also uninteresting 08:50:39 sixy -> y(xy), which is uninteresting if y is k or i 08:51:58 and by "uninteresting" i mean reduces to something simpler without parentheses than the original 08:52:49 so (1) sixs 08:53:09 siis -> ss, uninteresting 08:56:10 siksxy -> s(ks)xy -> ksy(xy) -> s(xy) 08:56:53 s tends to make things more complicated of course. i wonder if you can blow up using only those 08:58:09 sssssss -> ss(ss)sss -> ss(sss)ss -> ss(ssss)s -> ss(sssss) 08:58:18 i sense a pattern, and no 09:03:09 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:18:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 09:32:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:49:19 -!- Corun has joined. 09:50:16 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 09:58:59 -!- metazilla has joined. 09:59:04 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:59:10 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 10:02:13 -!- metazilla has joined. 10:02:22 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 10:03:59 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:04:26 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:04:27 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 10:05:58 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:05:58 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:06:07 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 10:06:47 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:06:53 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:06:58 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 10:10:03 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:10:03 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:10:18 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 10:12:08 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:12:09 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:18:58 -!- metazilla has joined. 10:18:59 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:19:07 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 10:19:35 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:19:37 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:25:31 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:25:33 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:26:13 -!- metazilla has joined. 10:26:13 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:26:21 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 10:31:54 -!- metazilla has joined. 10:31:54 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:32:06 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 10:32:48 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:32:58 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:33:46 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:33:54 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:35:47 -!- ehird has joined. 10:35:57 hi 10:36:02 ho 10:36:07 it's off to work we go? 10:36:14 yes. 10:36:45 so. 10:36:55 wonder if im still klined 10:36:57 * ehird = tired 10:37:20 so am I, intensive modules are wearing 10:37:24 on everyone involved 10:40:18 i think i had a dream about this channel 10:40:24 interesting 10:40:49 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:40:58 i was using my old client :s 10:41:15 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:41:23 yeah that was the one notable thing 10:43:39 I Have a Dream [citation needed] 10:43:51 ha 10:44:40 I had a dream a while back where a polar bear turned up on the doorstep to our house, which was useful because we'd forgotten to feed the foxes 10:45:26 strange, really, I don't even own a trio of foxes 10:45:32 and if I did I probably wouldn't keep them in the fight 10:45:35 *house 10:45:44 I'm dubious as to whether a polar bear or three foxes would win a fight anyway 10:46:31 haha 10:48:32 -!- metazilla has joined. 10:48:44 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 10:48:46 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 11:36:33 heh, thedailywtf sidebar has an argument about whether when all of the territory of Tuvalu ends up underwater, the .tv subdomain will still exist 11:36:58 has to 11:37:00 so many things use it 11:37:14 link? 11:37:14 it would be kind-of funny if it didn't, though 11:37:33 http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/10875/190075.aspx#190075 11:37:42 to be honest, country tlds are just random namespaces to me, since I don't believe in country-based segregation of dns 11:38:04 but lol 11:38:06 I love that tooltip 11:38:23 hilarious to the max 11:38:24 well, if the country ceases to exist, does its DNS entry? 11:38:51 Well... it gets obsoleted, but generally if enough people use it ICANN fail to bully them effectively to use another one, so they keep it around. 11:40:02 the registrars would jump at the chance to force everyone with a .tv to go to a new domain, I reckon 11:40:05 free money right there 11:40:10 hardly... 11:40:18 It's marketed by them as Super Valuable User Experience 11:40:25 This kind of stuff has happened before 11:40:29 ais523: you can still register .su 11:40:32 that's Soviet Union 11:40:36 they tried to get rid of it 11:40:44 but people liked it and got angry. 11:40:45 so they kept it. 11:40:50 [and upped the prices...] 11:41:17 essentially, obsolete ccTLDs just have to keep getting registrations in to ward of ICANN 11:41:21 *off 11:41:30 .tv is popular so they'll have no problem 11:43:03 ais523: the Five tv channel which I presume you know about's main domain is five.tv 11:43:06 that's pretty high-profile 11:43:23 anyway, if the nation of Tuvalu itself survives whilst having no territory it'll make an interesting argument in the nomic=micronation? debate 11:43:39 and yes, I used to watch Channel 5 back when it had a better name and was actually good 11:43:48 heh 11:44:25 it was really well designed to start with, a predictable schedule you could memorise (news every hour, particular sorts of programs in particular slots...) 11:44:34 and it had lots of interesting program choice too 11:44:50 tv is a bit obsolete now, IMO 11:45:23 yes, I hardly watch it 11:45:33 the idea of following someone else's schedule to watch a program they want you to see, (and with non-BBC channels, copious amounts of irritating adverts in between) is frankly quite old fashioned 11:45:37 more bandwidth-efficient than internet for things it's designed for, though 11:45:47 yes, broadcast is unfortunately being abandoned 11:46:05 anyway, time to get lunch 11:46:07 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:05:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:05:52 hi ais523 12:06:06 hi ehird 12:06:42 -!- ehird has quit ("Lost terminal"). 12:08:35 -!- ehird has joined. 12:08:37 *** Banned: Your bot is still broken and reconnects way too fast and too often. 12:08:41 Go. Fuck. Yourself. Freenode. 12:08:44 I don't have a fucking bot. 12:08:51 The only connecting is when I f ire up miau to see if I'm still klined. 12:08:54 Then I kill it. 12:09:07 And my bouncer was NEVER OFFLINE FOR AGES when it was klined. 12:09:11 Fuck you fuck you FUCK YOU. 12:09:16 :| 12:09:42 hmm... maybe the bouncer is doing frequent reconnects for some reason? 12:09:48 as it's a bouncer, it would hide that from you 12:09:58 just like it hides your reconnects from the channel 12:10:01 no 12:10:02 it doesn't 12:10:06 it tells you about discos/recos 12:10:09 and besides, I checked the logs 12:10:12 no disconnects or reconnects 12:10:14 just BAM klined 12:10:23 the only other client on this server is bsmnt_bot 12:10:28 but _I'm_ klined 12:10:29 not it 12:10:32 not even on the server? 12:10:32 see the logs, I'm the one who gets klined 12:10:35 so it's not bsmnt_bot 12:10:46 ais523: rutian runs miau (not anymore, ofc) and bsmnt_bot 12:10:48 that's it 12:10:49 you might have disconnected/reconnected a lot without ever joining #esoteric 12:10:55 no 12:10:58 because i was in #esoteric 12:10:58 so it wouldn't show up in the logs 12:10:59 consistently 12:11:00 for hours 12:11:01 then got klined 12:11:06 i DID read the logs 12:13:47 maybe I should put up a bot that does do that 12:13:47 leave it up for a few days 12:13:48 kill it 12:13:48 then tell them I fixed it 12:13:50 no 12:14:00 yeah that probably wouldn't work 12:14:10 did you reply to them with an explanation that the account klined wasn't even running a bot? 12:14:37 Indeed, I did that even before this new ban message. 12:14:41 Pointless. 12:17:29 have you asked them for evidence? 12:18:29 I might. Not that I expect that to help. 12:19:08 well then it won't. nothing ever helps if you don't believe in it. 12:19:41 :p 12:21:48 * oerjan has a thought 12:22:19 if bsmnt_bot's quits and joins are the cause of this (overreaction, but still) would putting it on the bouncer help? 12:22:45 hm the replay might mess up things 12:23:05 replay can be turned off 12:23:15 the bouncer ehird and I used to use only replayed on request 12:23:24 although the request was in my startup script 12:23:37 ic 12:24:47 if bsmnt_bot's quits and joins are the cause of this 12:24:47 can't be 12:24:50 it's not running any more 12:25:02 is the bouncer running? 12:26:11 is all of eso-std.org klined, or just you? 12:27:08 I'm not sure, possibly all, but in the logs, I was the one who quit as (K-Lined) 12:27:14 and the bouncer is not running. 12:30:06 oh well. 12:30:59 -!- oerjan has quit ("Bass"). 12:53:01 -!- oklopoll has joined. 12:54:11 oklopollololololol 12:54:26 is an oklopoll a sort of vote? 12:54:33 groan 12:54:43 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:54:50 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:54:56 Oklopol: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic 12:55:19 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic. 12:57:41 -!- Slereah has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 12:58:43 -!- oklofok has joined. 12:59:00 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic. 12:59:05 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 12:59:08 sorry 12:59:09 just wanted to add the ; 12:59:28 can you remove the extra space after c) too? 12:59:54 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 12:59:57 yes. 13:03:29 oko 13:03:55 okoko 13:03:59 oklofok: oklotalk-- bot plz 13:04:07 :o 13:04:08 ummmmm 13:04:44 * oklofok clicked on something now 13:04:53 wut 13:04:56 damn 13:04:58 wrong button. 13:05:14 it's hardcoded to quakenet atm 13:05:17 i'll rehardcode it 13:05:57 -!- oktabot has joined. 13:06:02 hi oklofok 13:06:03 er 13:06:04 oktabot: 13:06:07 :: 1 13:06:08 1 13:06:08 what's yer command prefix den 13:06:09 oho 13:06:12 :: (+ 1 1) 13:06:13 2 13:06:25 :: ({X -> X} 1) 13:06:25 x 13:06:27 :: (+ "still no " "support for anything?") 13:06:28 still no support for anything? 13:06:30 um I think I forgot the syntax 13:06:31 :o 13:06:31 k 13:06:43 :: ({(-> X X)} 1) 13:06:43 1 13:06:52 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:06:56 yay 13:06:59 :: $f 13:06:59 f 13:07:01 yayyy 13:07:04 yayyyyyyyy 13:07:05 :: f 13:07:05 f 13:07:08 -!- SirDayBat has left (?). 13:07:41 oklofok: how do you do iteration? 13:07:49 ais523: by recursion. 13:08:00 ais523: beware, Things double as objects. 13:08:04 oklofok: do you still have my cons-class? 13:08:06 is -> purely a lambda? 13:08:10 that thing was nice 13:08:10 ehird: www.vjn.fi/oklopol 13:08:12 or is it more complicated? 13:08:13 ais523: no, it's a Thing match 13:08:14 ais523: o no. 13:08:22 (-> ptrn expr) 13:08:23 ais523: coed samples: 13:08:28 ais523: http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/oklotalk--.txt 13:08:33 ptrn is matched on whatever is in _ 13:08:37 basically {} is a function and an object 13:08:44 oklofok: ssh, the examples are enough for anyone 13:08:45 :P 13:08:49 well yeah sure :P 13:09:10 i was actually thinking i'd add like at least somekinda spec stubs in the /oklopol/ examples? 13:09:16 meh 13:09:27 what does ' do? 13:09:32 recursion 13:09:32 ais523: recur 13:09:35 by inspection, that seems most likely to be the thing implementing recursion 13:09:42 ' just means "me" 13:09:49 ais523: you can do recursion by name as well. 13:10:03 not in objects tho 13:10:24 :: (= cons {(-> [h t] {(-> [$pb :] [h t]) (-> $car h) (-> $cdr t) (-> [$setcar h] h) (-> [$setcdr t] t) (-> [$! 0] h) (-> [$! n] (! t (- n 1))) (-> $length (+ 1 (length t)))})}) 13:10:25 <<<21708712>>> 13:10:28 :: (= nil {(-> [$pb :] $f) (-> $car $f) (-> $cdr $f) (-> [$setcar h] $f) (-> [$setcdr t] $f) (-> [$! n] $f) (-> $length 0) }) 13:10:28 <<<21715424>>> 13:10:31 :: cons 13:10:31 <<<21708712>>> 13:10:39 :: (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil))) 13:10:40 <<<21737880>>> 13:10:46 :: (car (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil)))) 13:10:46 1 13:10:49 :: (cdr (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil)))) 13:10:50 <<<21725872>>> 13:10:57 i realized the other day that one thing i definitely should've had in oklotalk-- is umm err liek. setting a dynamic variable 13:11:02 :: (! (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil))) 0) 13:11:03 you just can't do it 13:11:03 1 13:11:05 :: (! (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil))) 1) 13:11:05 2 13:11:07 :: (! (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil))) 2) 13:11:07 3 13:11:09 :: (! (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil))) 3) 13:11:09 f 13:11:15 oklofok: not even by implementing monads by hand? 13:11:18 :: (length (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil)))) 13:11:18 3 13:11:42 i wrote that cons/nil ^.^ 13:11:49 ais523: you can't set dynamic variables as the language implements them, stepping onto interpretation level allows you to do anything in any language. 13:12:01 ah, ok 13:12:09 oklofok: well, any tc lang 13:12:10 -!- oklopoll has quit (No route to host). 13:12:10 I wonder if monads by hand counts as interpretation level? 13:12:12 ais523: yeah btw that's a pretty fun example the one on /oklopol/ 13:12:14 i mean 13:12:20 i made the sort and the rational class 13:12:23 ehird made the list class 13:12:25 yeah it implements its own numer class 13:12:28 that you can use like regular ones 13:12:31 for rationals 13:12:35 so it's sorting rationals entirely from scratch 13:12:39 and, liek, qs 13:12:44 lists, sorting and rationals synthetic 13:12:51 oklofok: although that qs is the functional one and so not really qs. 13:12:53 but thar you go 13:13:04 ehird: well yes, i read the article too 13:13:26 what does ftr do? 13:13:31 ais523: filter 13:13:45 as in, (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] 13:13:53 i'm sure you can work that out 13:14:03 yes 13:14:15 oklofok: what is the array syntax again 13:14:20 ehird: [] 13:14:22 having that in your stdlib is kind-of cheating for implementing quicksort, though 13:14:27 umm, no 13:14:36 many langs have filter 13:14:40 it's partition that's cheating 13:14:41 ais523: well it's implemented in oklotalk 13:14:44 the filter 13:14:47 whoops 13:14:54 * ais523 accidentally cut the power supply to their monitor 13:15:02 ais523: also note that qs works on conses 13:15:03 good thing it wasn't the CPU... 13:15:05 var_map["ftr"]=ofunc("(-> [p (: (@ h (tst p)) t)] (+ [h] (' p t))) (-> [p (: h t)] (' p t)) []","ftr") 13:15:05 as well as arrays 13:15:07 same with ftr 13:15:12 because $! and length were defined 13:15:24 ais523: you could just copypaste that in there. 13:15:27 :: [1 2 3] 13:15:28 [1 2 3] 13:15:34 :: (ftr {$f} [1 2 3]) 13:15:34 [] 13:15:35 :: (ftr {$t} [1 2 3]) 13:15:36 [1 2 3] 13:15:45 the problem is you can't do imperative stuff really, which you should be able to do 13:15:50 yes 13:15:53 this is because the lvalue system is degenerate in -- 13:15:58 * ais523 is pondering how to make a botloop, as always 13:16:00 and, well, also 13:16:05 because you can't err 13:16:08 :: %eval 13:16:08 %eval 13:16:09 set a dynamic variable 13:16:13 from an inner scope 13:16:17 :: %eval a 13:16:17 a 13:16:21 you can just read it 13:16:22 how does string quoting work in oklotalk? 13:16:23 oh, right 13:16:34 ais523: very degenerate :< 13:16:49 the whole object system is kinda ugly, i was mainly just going for getting it extendable 13:16:58 should integrate strings and lists at some point 13:16:58 oklofok: " to " is a raw string? 13:17:03 or is there an escaping syntax? 13:17:04 ais523: yes 13:17:11 :: "\"" 13:17:11 " 13:17:15 ais523: i'm not sure whether there are, but i assume yes 13:17:15 :: "a" 13:17:16 a 13:17:16 okay, good 13:17:21 :: "%eval 2" 13:17:21 %eval 2 13:17:21 2 13:17:24 : """a""" 13:17:26 i just remember strings were really stupid. 13:17:28 :: """a""" 13:17:37 :: "a" 13:17:37 a 13:17:47 hmm... my triple-quotes seem to have confused it 13:17:57 :: 1 1 13:17:58 1 13:18:04 :: "" "" 13:18:07 oh. 13:18:07 right 13:18:09 ais523: parses as 13:18:11 "" "a" "" 13:18:11 it just evaluates the first 13:18:14 and it's empty 13:18:14 and the last expression is taken 13:18:16 * oklofok is idiot. 13:18:17 :: 1 2 3 13:18:17 3 13:18:26 and quotes aren't quo0ted in their output 13:18:26 thus 13:18:40 oh right last one ofc 13:18:41 :: 1 2 3 13:18:41 3 13:18:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:18:45 13:18 < ehird> thus 13:18:48 er 13:18:50 13:18 < ehird> :: 1 2 3 13:18:50 13:18 < oktabot> 3 13:18:57 oh 13:18:59 lol. 13:19:04 i'm kinda blind 13:19:05 :D 13:19:07 :: 3 2 1 13:19:08 1 13:20:07 :: (map {"\""+_+"\""} [1 2 3]) 13:20:08 [+_+"\"" +_+"\"" +_+"\""] 13:20:19 ? 13:20:24 ais523: sexps. 13:20:25 :: (map {"\""+_+"\""} ["1" "2" "3"]) 13:20:25 [+_+"\"" +_+"\"" +_+"\""] 13:20:28 oh 13:20:32 oklotalk-- 13:20:32 I'm writing in infix 13:20:34 not prefix 13:20:47 well 13:20:48 :: (map {(+ "\"" (+ _ "\""))} ["1" "2" "3"]) 13:20:48 ["1" "2" "3"] 13:20:49 :: (1 + 3) 13:20:49 4 13:21:14 :: (fold {+} "\"" (map {(+ "\"" (+ _ "\""))} ["1" "2" "3"])) 13:21:14 An error: Application consists of 2 or 3 expressions. 13:21:33 :: (fold {+} (map {(+ "\"" (+ _ "\""))} ["1" "2" "3"]) "\"") 13:21:33 An error: Application consists of 2 or 3 expressions. 13:21:33 is there a fold? 13:21:45 also {+} is a constant function that returns + 13:21:46 {+} wouldn't work. 13:21:47 ah, if there isn't why would there be that particular error? 13:21:52 and ok 13:21:57 because you have too many applications 13:21:59 :: (aaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaaaa) 13:21:59 aaaaaaa 13:22:02 er 13:22:03 :: (aaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaaaa aaaaaaa) 13:22:03 An error: Application consists of 2 or 3 expressions. 13:22:07 :: (aaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaaa) 13:22:07 aaaaaaa 13:22:08 :: (fold + "\"" (map {(+ "\"" (+ _ "\""))} ["1" "2" "3"])) 13:22:08 An error: Application consists of 2 or 3 expressions. 13:22:09 :: (aaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa) 13:22:10 aaaaaaa 13:22:13 :: (aaaaaaa) 13:22:14 An error: Application consists of 2 or 3 expressions. 13:22:16 :: (foldl + "\"" (map {(+ "\"" (+ _ "\""))} ["1" "2" "3"])) 13:22:17 An error: Application consists of 2 or 3 expressions. 13:22:25 ... 13:22:27 well, let's implement a fold if there isn't one already 13:22:27 I just told you 13:22:29 ais523: functions are either monadic or dyadic 13:22:36 fold is trivial, look 13:22:40 and ok, that's an interesting restriction 13:22:49 you see this is just a simple sexp syntax over an infix system. 13:22:55 I should implement total from Underload, it's like fold but with two args 13:22:58 sec 13:23:47 what are arrays/lists syntactic sugar for? 13:23:53 how do I head/tail them? 13:23:59 or do I have to rely on ehird cons cells? 13:24:10 ais523: well you can pattern match on them 13:24:15 (: head tail) 13:24:22 but i'm not sure you can actively cut them... 13:24:32 pattern matching will do 13:24:33 :: (: [1 2 3]) 13:24:33 [1 2 3] 13:24:37 :: (: 4 [1 2 3]) 13:24:37 f 13:24:38 :: (= fold {(-> [f i] {(-> [] i) (-> l (f (! l 0 13:24:38 <<<21820320>>> 13:24:42 that's as far as I've written 13:24:44 feel free to continue 13:24:54 haha 13:24:55 :: (-> (: a b) [1 2 3]) 13:24:55 f 13:25:03 ok, that was surprising 13:25:09 ... 13:25:09 :: (-> (: a b) [1 2 3]) 13:25:10 f 13:25:12 {} 13:25:13 why f? 13:25:14 you need {} 13:25:17 f is false 13:25:21 ais523: well i'm not sure : means anythin. 13:25:24 maybe you should learn oklotalk :s 13:25:24 *anything 13:25:32 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:25:34 ehird: what do you think I'm doing? 13:25:39 i can see if there's a beheader.... 13:25:41 beats me :D 13:25:47 (-> a b) pattern matches on the value of _ 13:25:52 ah 13:25:56 and force a return if it matches 13:26:05 so you need them in {} to be useful 13:26:15 :: ({(-> (: a b) [a b])} [1 2 3]) 13:26:15 [1 [2 3]] 13:26:20 :: ({(-> (: a b) a)} [1 2 3 4]) 13:26:20 1 13:26:26 yes 13:26:41 huray now we sing songs of the hello 13:26:51 13:18 < ehird> :: 1 2 3 13:26:51 13:18 < oktabot> 3 13:26:52 er 13:27:00 :: (= fold {(-> [f i] {(-> [] i) (-> l (f (! l 0 13:27:01 <<<21740000>>> 13:27:01 hokay 13:27:20 :: (! [1 2 3 4 5 2 34 12 4 2 5 2 4 23 21] 10) 13:27:20 5 13:27:22 :: (= fold {(-> [f i] {(-> [] i) (-> (: a b) (: (f a) (' b)))})}) 13:27:23 <<<21831312>>> 13:27:31 there's an indexing operator it seems :D 13:27:31 :: ((fold + 0) [1 2 3]) 13:27:31 f 13:27:34 wat 13:27:47 :: (* [1 2 3] [4 5 6]) 13:27:47 [[1 4] [1 5] [1 6] [2 4] [2 5] [2 6] [3 4] [3 5] [3 6]] 13:27:49 xD 13:27:57 THERE'S A CARTESIAN PRODUCT AND NO ONE TOLD ME 13:28:09 :: (= fold {(-> [f i] {(-> [] i) (-> (: a b) (: (f a) (' b)))})}) 13:28:09 :: (* [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]]) 13:28:09 <<<21461512>>> 13:28:09 [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]] 13:28:14 y dat is broken? 13:28:16 ((fold + 0) []) 13:28:17 err 13:28:20 : ((fold + 0) []) 13:28:21 :: ((fold + 0) []) 13:28:21 0 13:28:24 that wurk 13:28:25 :: ((fold + 0) [1]) 13:28:26 f 13:28:30 that donut 13:28:35 that's a good question..... 13:28:40 * oklofok thinks 13:28:45 :: ({(-> [(: h t) f] (f h (' t f))) (-> [x f] x)} + [1 2 3 4 5]) 13:28:45 + 13:28:51 hmm... not quite right 13:28:56 failure :D 13:29:03 err... 13:29:07 :: (: 1 [2 3]) 13:29:08 f 13:29:13 that's probably the problem 13:29:15 :| 13:29:35 :: (= fold {(-> [f [a]] a) (-> [f (: a b)] (: (f a) (' f b)))}) 13:29:35 <<<21786176>>> 13:29:39 use your own lists. 13:29:42 :: ({(-> [(: h t) f] (f h (' t f))) (-> [x f] x)} [1 2 3 4 5] +) 13:29:42 An error: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'list' 13:29:45 :: (= fold {(-> [f [a]] a) (-> [f (: a b)] [(f a) (' f b)])}) 13:29:45 <<<21839384>>> 13:29:49 :: (fold + [1 2 3]) 13:29:49 [1 [2 3]] 13:29:52 my problem was I got the args the wrong way round 13:29:54 oops. 13:29:56 that's a map. 13:30:04 :: (= fold {(-> [f [a]] a) (-> [f (: a b)] (f a (' f b))}) 13:30:04 haha 13:30:04 An error: Unmatching parens @ row 1. 13:30:08 :: (= fold {(-> [f [a]] a) (-> [f (: a b)] (f a (' f b)))}) 13:30:09 <<<21887856>>> 13:30:12 :: (fold + [1 2 3]) 13:30:13 6 13:30:16 oh yeah 13:30:19 ;-) 13:30:22 :: (fold + []) 13:30:22 f 13:30:22 "@ row 1", what a great irc bot feature! 13:30:24 good 13:30:25 :: (fold + [1]) 13:30:26 1 13:30:28 Very nice. 13:30:35 :: (fold * [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]]) 13:30:35 [[1 4] [1 5] [1 6] [2 4] [2 5] [2 6] [3 4] [3 5] [3 6]] 13:30:40 :: (fold * [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]]) 13:30:40 [[1 [4 7]] [1 [4 8]] [1 [4 9]] [1 [5 7]] [1 [5 8]] [1 [5 9]] [1 [6 7]] [1 [6 8]] [1 [6 9]] [2 [4 7]] [2 [4 8]] [2 [4 9]] [2 [5 7]] [2 [5 8]] [2 [5 9]] [2 [6 7]] [2 [6 8]] [2 [6 9]] [3 [4 7]] [3 [4 8]] 13:30:40 :: ({(-> [(: h t) f] (f h (' t f))) (-> [[x] f] x)} [1 2 3 4 5] +) 13:30:40 An error: Atm instance has no attribute 'call' 13:30:42 :| 13:30:45 :: ({(-> [(: h t) f] (f h (' t f))) (-> [[x] f] x)} [1 2 3 4 5] +) 13:30:45 An error: Atm instance has no attribute 'call' 13:30:47 ais523: give up, I beat you :D 13:30:55 "Atm instance"? 13:31:00 shur 13:31:02 ais523: atom 13:31:04 :: ($a 2) 13:31:05 2 13:31:09 i mean, that's ind of right 13:31:10 but yeah 13:31:15 :: ($a 1 2) 13:31:16 f 13:31:20 in conclusion 13:31:20 err :P 13:31:22 anyway, that's total not fold 13:31:22 (= fold {(-> [f [a]] a) (-> [f (: a b)] (f a (' f b)))}) 13:31:27 o 13:31:32 well fold is cooler :D 13:31:35 although you can implement fold from total just by putting an extra element on the end of the list 13:31:49 fyi, two-argument fold 13:31:50 is common 13:32:01 yes, I just like to give it a different name 13:32:14 total is misleading, it does fold 13:32:20 arguably, the fold-with-default needs a special name 13:32:44 :: (fold fold []) 13:32:45 f 13:32:55 :: (fold fold [+ [1 2 3]]) 13:32:55 6 13:33:00 :DDD 13:33:04 :: (fold fold [+ [1 2 3] + [1 2 3]]) 13:33:04 f 13:33:05 errr, that's just confusing. 13:33:16 :: (fold fold [+ + [1 2 3]]) 13:33:17 f 13:33:19 haha wat 13:33:22 :: (fold fold [fold [+ [1 2 3]]]) 13:33:23 6 13:33:24 no idea. 13:33:30 MAKES NO SENSE :D 13:33:33 ais523: so, it's application? 13:33:34 :DD 13:33:39 :: (fold fold [fold [fold [+ [1 2 3]]]]) 13:33:39 6 13:33:43 ehird: of course it is 13:33:46 (fold fold [x y]) -> (x y) 13:33:47 when you have a two-arg list 13:33:47 that's awesome 13:33:49 OKLOTALK-- ONLY MAKES SENSE WHEN USED NICELY. 13:34:08 oklofok: no, that's inherent in the definition of defaultless fold 13:34:12 it would work just as well in Haskell 13:34:33 no it wouldn't 13:34:40 ais523: you sure haskell likes lists with functions and values in them? 13:34:44 as [(+),[1,2,3]] is invalid 13:34:49 oh, forgot about the strict typing 13:34:49 as lists are monotyperated 13:34:52 -!- Hiato has joined. 13:34:53 ... 13:34:59 conclusion: this is AWESOME BEANS PLUS. 13:35:02 it would work in Visual Haskell 13:35:06 wut 13:35:07 how can people forget haskell is strict about types 13:35:08 which has a Variant type, and is otherwise identical 13:35:09 i mean 13:35:16 haskell has a variant type 13:35:20 it's called Any 13:35:22 oklofok: because I've used OCaml 13:35:22 that's what haskell is, being pedantic about types 13:35:29 although it's gh 13:35:29 c 13:35:33 also http://www.haskell.org/visualhaskell/ 13:35:34 Haskell is a breath of fresh air compared to it in terms of type dicipline 13:35:44 ehird: well, I was just trying to pun on Visual Basic 13:35:57 * Hiato wonders who it was that used arch here 13:36:02 Hiato: too many idiots. 13:36:06 mostly AnMaster :P 13:36:13 archlinux? 13:36:20 yes. 13:36:22 Hiato: AnMaster ported C-INTERCAL to Arch 13:36:26 * oklofok has heard of that 13:36:27 although I don't know if he actually uses it 13:36:41 not a port. 13:36:48 ehird: well, just a build library 13:36:49 he just added some lines into a packagefile. 13:36:52 *package file 13:36:54 porting is easy if you don't have to change the source 13:37:03 ais523, I use arch on one system. And yes it was just making a package 13:37:20 so porting would be the wrong word 13:38:58 :: (fold + (map {(+ "\"" (+ _ "\""))} ["1" "2" "3"])) 13:38:58 "1""2""3" 13:40:14 -!- Hiato1 has joined. 13:40:35 :: "["+(fold + (map {(+ "\"" (+ _ "\""))} ["1""2""3"]))+"]" 13:40:35 An error: Unmatching parens @ row 1. 13:40:37 er wait 13:40:46 :: (("["+(fold + (map {(+ "\"" (+ _ "\""))} ["1""2""3"])))+"]") 13:40:46 An error: Unmatching parens @ row 1. 13:40:50 fuckit 13:40:50 :: (fold + (map {(-> "\"" "\"\\\"\" ") (-> "\\" "\"\\\\\" ") (-> x (+ "\"" (+ _ "\"")))} ["1" "2" "3"])) 13:40:51 "1""2""3" 13:40:57 :: (fold + (map {(-> "\"" "\"\\\"\" ") (-> "\\" "\"\\\\\" ") (-> x (+ "\"" (+ _ "\" ")))} ["1" "2" "3"])) 13:40:57 "1" "2" "3" 13:41:06 :: (fold + (map {(-> "\"" "\"\\\"\" ") (-> "\\" "\"\\\\\" ") (-> x (+ "\"" (+ _ "\" ")))} ["1" "2" "3" "\"" "\\"])) 13:41:07 "1" "2" "3" "\"" "\\" 13:41:30 :: [1 2 3] 13:41:30 [1 2 3] 13:41:37 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:41:38 :: [1 .. 5] 13:41:39 [1 .. 5] 13:41:40 :< 13:42:17 oklotalk-- is for real men 13:43:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:43:27 :: (= range {(-> [x x] -> []) (-> [x y] ([x] + (range (x+1) y)))}) 13:43:27 An error: Application consists of 2 or 3 expressions. 13:43:36 :: (= range {(-> [x x] []) (-> [x y] ([x] + (range (x+1) y)))}) 13:43:37 An error: Application consists of 2 or 3 expressions. 13:43:40 butts. 13:43:46 :: (= .. {(-> [a a] [1]) (-> [a b] (+ [a] (' (+ a 1) b)))}) 13:43:46 <<<22016608>>> 13:43:49 :: (.. 1 7) 13:43:50 [1 2 3 4 5 6 1] 13:43:54 err... 13:44:04 :: (= .. {(-> [a a] [a]) (-> [a b] (+ [a] (' (+ a 1) b)))}) 13:44:04 <<<22017008>>> 13:44:09 :: (.. 1 7) 13:44:09 [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] 13:44:11 :: (.. -12 42) 13:44:12 An error: maximum recursion depth exceeded 13:44:15 xD 13:44:17 well. 13:44:18 :: (.. 1 2) 13:44:18 [1 2] 13:44:25 :: (6 .. 9) 13:44:25 f 13:44:30 awesome 13:44:32 ... 13:44:33 wtf 13:44:52 well 6 handles [.. 9] 13:44:57 lol 13:45:05 currently all handles all except for atoms 13:45:14 :: (fold + (map {(+ "\"" (+ ((-> "\"" "\\\"") (-> "\\" "\\\\") (-> x x)) "\""))} ["1" "2" "\"" "\\" "3" ])) 13:45:14 An error: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'clbl' 13:45:22 ? 13:45:24 xD 13:45:28 errors are so helpful <3 13:45:37 ais523: i'm not sure what that means. 13:45:47 :: (fold + (map {(+ "\"" (+ ({(-> "\"" "\\\"") (-> "\\" "\\\\") (-> x x)) "\"")} _)} ["1" "2" "\"" "\\" "3" ])) 13:45:48 An error: Unmatching parens @ row 1. 13:45:48 i mean that's an unwrapped python error 13:45:59 well. 13:46:06 ((->... doesn't look right 13:46:25 you clearly have paren errors there 13:46:30 :: (fold + (map {(+ "\"" (+ ({(-> "\"" "\\\"") (-> "\\" "\\\\") (-> x x)} _) "\"")} ["1" "2" "\"" "\\" "3" ])) 13:46:30 An error: Unmatching parens @ row 1. 13:46:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:46:43 :: (fold + (map {(+ "\"" (+ ({(-> "\"" "\\\"") (-> "\\" "\\\\") (-> x x)} _) "\""))} ["1" "2" "\"" "\\" "3" ])) 13:46:43 "1""2""\"""\\""3" 13:46:50 :: (fold + (map {(+ "\"" (+ ({(-> "\"" "\\\"") (-> "\\" "\\\\") (-> x x)} _) "\" "))} ["1" "2" "\"" "\\" "3" ])) 13:46:51 "1" "2" "\"" "\\" "3" 13:48:34 :: 13:48:40 :: <---> 13:48:41 f 13:48:43 :: <------> 13:48:44 f 13:48:46 Heh 13:48:49 -!- ais523 has quit ("mibbit.com: lectures"). 13:49:44 :: fol 13:49:44 fol 13:49:47 hm. 13:49:52 :: oklocrap 13:49:53 oklocrap 13:49:53 :: %%# 13:49:53 %%# 13:51:34 "There are 4 primitive datatypes: integer, string, list, atom and thing." 13:51:40 Isn't that 5? 13:51:45 :DD 13:51:58 maybe, maybe :) 13:53:14 :D 13:53:23 oklotalk-- is one of my favourite languages 13:53:25 Things are clever 13:53:35 thingz <33 13:53:54 i wanna implement some muture :<<< 13:54:57 wut is muture again 13:55:12 www.vjn.fi/oklopol/muture.txt 13:55:25 it's the search thingie stuff 13:55:49 wat 13:55:55 :--) 13:56:30 ">> expr" maximizes expr given the some nondeterministic choices the interp can make in evaluating expre. 13:56:32 *expr 13:56:39 >> \[1 3 5 2] 13:56:43 would evaluate to 5 13:56:52 \list means an elem of list 13:57:05 :: (= x 42) 13:57:06 42 13:57:09 :: x 13:57:10 42 13:57:11 :D 13:58:28 wow, it's a number :) 13:59:25 the problem is of course it's pretty goddamn hard to implement, tried once, crapped my pants. 14:17:08 -!- Mony has joined. 14:19:13 plop 14:19:47 indeed 14:20:21 -!- Hiato1 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:29:30 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:29:36 -!- moozilla has joined. 14:37:12 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCException: MigoMipo out of IRC"). 15:18:09 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:50:30 -!- impomatic has joined. 16:51:50 I've just implemented RSSB in Redcode and I'm looking for a new project 16:53:11 cool 17:01:05 Any suggestions. I'd prefer stack or cell based, minimal instruction set and relative addressing! 17:03:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:03:59 Well, bf fits that but is boring. 17:06:46 Someone already did bf in redcode 17:07:17 Someone already did brainfuck in everything 17:08:39 I want one of these for esoteric programming langs http://www.levenez.com/lang/lang.pdf :-) 17:09:42 What do you mean "for"? 17:09:46 Interpreter or interpretee? 17:11:10 The interpreter will be written in Redcode 17:18:11 -!- FireyFly has joined. 17:32:57 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:33:04 wb me 17:41:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:42:26 yoohoo i've got a part in the topic 17:42:34 hi oerjan 17:42:49 tip of the hat to you Mr. ais523 17:45:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:47:50 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:49:11 impomatic: Pick and choose -> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Language_list 17:50:50 -!- ais523_ has joined. 17:51:00 Too many to choose from! 17:51:11 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:51:50 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 17:52:18 i can see if there's a beheader.... 17:52:33 scary 17:52:37 hmm... so who's impomatic, then? 17:52:44 impomatic: there's also the random page button 17:52:47 this channel is getting new members so fast it's scary 17:53:03 and hi 17:53:09 For now I've looked through the Hello World implementations for a language I like the look of 17:53:10 since most pages are on a single language, should be nearly the same 17:53:41 and if it hits something you aren't looking for, you can always click again 17:54:09 ais523: new here. I'm a redcode programmer 17:54:15 hm hello world is not good for unlambda, say, the structure is trivial 17:54:18 ah, interesting 17:54:32 so doesn't really show it 17:54:36 oerjan: hello world works best to show how languages manage string handling, and what the basic syntax is 17:54:51 I mean, lots of different languages could just have "Hello, world!" as a hello world program 17:54:57 in all sorts of different paradigms 17:55:00 :: "Hello, world!" 17:55:01 Hello, world! 17:55:08 ^ul (Hello, world!)S 17:55:09 Hello, world! 17:55:09 indeed 17:55:15 ^bf ,[.,]!Hello, world! 17:55:15 Hello, world! 17:55:19 three rather different langs 17:55:23 and yet the programs look pretty similar 17:55:42 99bob is at least good for control flow 17:56:15 impomatic: if you're interested in redcode might i suggest FuckYourBrane (iirc)? 17:56:22 FukYorBrane 17:56:31 but there's a fatal bug in it if you don't limit program length 17:56:36 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:56:44 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:56:48 there's also Brainfuck Joust, which has become popular over at Agora recently 17:56:52 someone should add it to the esowiki, really 17:57:10 ais523: well the bf hello world with ! is cheating 17:57:15 yes, I know 17:57:22 without ! I don't have it memorised, though 17:57:28 ^show 17:57:29 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help 17:57:38 and why is there not a hello world in fungot's program list? 17:57:39 ais523: for s in (find prefix -type fnord do if -z instrarrayid then echo " /star does not point to get_install" then echo " double fnord else fnord 17:57:45 indeed 17:57:47 ^show rot13 17:57:47 ,[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+14<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>>+5[<-5>-]<2-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+ 17:57:59 hmm... that's not the whole program 17:58:01 !show choo 17:58:07 ^show choo 17:58:07 >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] 17:58:13 ACHOO 17:58:17 IMO, BF's strong point is simple text processing 17:59:25 ^help 17:59:25 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 17:59:33 ^def hw bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+. 17:59:33 Defined. 17:59:37 ^hw 17:59:38 ^hw 17:59:38 Hello World! 17:59:38 Hello World! 17:59:45 oerjan: snap 17:59:51 (pasted from wiki) 17:59:59 I was going to ask if that's the esowiki's version 18:00:12 it looks like it, it has too many loops to be the EgoBot version 18:00:13 oerjan: thanks, I'll take a look shortly 18:00:33 yeah it doesn't use the several cell initialization 18:01:12 fizzie: is it necessary to save new commands explicitly? 18:01:20 oerjan: not IIRC 18:01:25 you could always read the source to find out 18:01:27 ^source 18:01:27 http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 18:02:53 * ais523 decides that right now, he /is/ insane enough to find the particular relevant bit of fungot's code 18:02:54 ais523: i'm already sobbing!! 18:03:46 fungot: how rational of you 18:03:47 oerjan: they really don't dare open anything else for some time now i know smthg abt the differences fnord mit-scheme n other schemes too. 18:05:00 btw about earlier this morning - does anyone know a non-terminating ski expression without parentheses? 18:05:18 (when i was talking to myself) 18:05:37 hmm... which way does SKI associate when written normally? 18:05:44 left 18:05:47 I'm far too used to Unlambda to know that off by heart 18:05:57 as in, SII = ((S I) I) ? 18:06:02 yes 18:06:37 well, there isn't an obvious solution that I can see 18:06:41 although there might well be a subtle one 18:06:48 do you think just fuzzing would discover one? 18:06:53 starting with sii was useless at least 18:07:04 yep 18:07:12 because you may as well just write whatever it's applied to twice 18:07:30 and just s's didn't work, even though s's tend to make things complicated in general 18:07:36 ah, I was wondering about just Ss 18:07:52 K is a simplifier, although simplifiers may help for loops 18:07:56 sssssss -> ss(ss)sss -> ss(sss)ss -> ss(ssss)s -> ss(sssss) 18:07:57 and S is a complicator 18:09:51 summing up from this morning, it must start with ss, siks or siss 18:09:59 It is necessary to use ^save, yes. 18:10:00 anything else simplifies 18:10:01 ^save 18:10:01 OK. 18:10:07 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:10:13 thanks 18:10:43 let's see... we know it starts with s 18:10:47 as starting with i is redundant 18:10:53 and starting with k is doubly redundant 18:11:05 therefore, it's S x y z and possibly more combinators 18:11:10 starting with sk is also redundant 18:11:11 which is ((x z) (y z)) 18:11:20 no it isn't? 18:11:28 ah, yes it is 18:11:30 yes it is, skx == i 18:11:34 you just get i 18:11:51 and starting with sii we've already demonstrated is redundant 18:11:56 so ss, sik, or sis 18:11:59 and i looked at si this morning 18:12:10 sixy must have y=s 18:12:18 so you get z (s z) 18:12:29 and x!=i as you noticed 18:12:30 where z is the next term 18:12:32 wait, no 18:12:36 umm... 18:12:50 sixs = ((i s) (x s)) 18:12:53 = s (x s) 18:13:07 oerjan: well, I think serialised SKI counts as a new esolang 18:13:14 I wonder if it's usable, or if it's a new subtle cough? 18:13:29 my thought exactly 18:14:23 what if it starts with ss? 18:14:35 siks = s(ks), siss = s(ss) 18:14:52 ssxy = ((s y) (x y)) 18:14:55 which doesn't evaluate further 18:15:06 ssxyz = (s y) (x y) (z) 18:15:07 which does 18:15:16 yeah that was the trouble with just s's, tend to gobble up arguments 18:15:33 it becomes (yz)((xy)z) 18:15:49 I think the trick may be to s a lot to generate complicated bracketing patterns 18:15:54 then after that fill it with an s/k/i mix 18:16:00 to get the arguments into the pattern we need 18:17:04 ssxszy = sz((xs)z)y 18:17:29 = (zy)(((xs)z)y) 18:17:36 I think I'm beginning to spot a pattern here 18:17:56 What's going on with the birds? 18:18:03 not birds in particular 18:18:12 the problem is to make an SKI infinite loop 18:18:18 with the restriction that the entire thing has to left-associate 18:18:33 so sii(sii) is out because it needs that pair of parens 18:21:58 "Flattening Combinators: Surviving Without Parentheses, Chris Okasaki, JFP03" 18:22:07 sounds promising :D 18:22:29 HAMMER IT FLAT 18:22:29 oerjan: does it just use backquotes instead, I wonder? 18:22:52 Is unlambda that popular that people know of those conventions though? 18:23:00 probably not 18:23:02 I don't recall PN with ` anywhere else 18:23:07 although I know I think of combinators with backquotes not parens 18:23:08 i think that's unlikely for a JFP submission... 18:23:57 eek postscript 18:24:12 oerjan: can't you read postscript? 18:24:21 Hm. 18:24:36 not easily. 18:24:48 I have at least two postscript readers on here 18:24:52 quite probably 3 18:25:53 From the original article of combinators : 'If we now take the form FU as a point of departure, then, by means of Z alone, F can be transformed in such a way that all parenthesis disappear. By means of C, Z and S, therefore, every formula of logic can be written without parenthesis as a simple sequence of these signs" 18:26:02 FU* 18:26:09 hmm... which combinators are C and Z? 18:28:10 C is K, Z is... Zxyz = x(yz), S is S. 18:28:40 well, Z is cheating in this particular instance 18:28:54 because clearly it lets you mess with associativity at will 18:29:00 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:29:09 Don't diss the Schonfinkel man himself. 18:29:15 ok 18:29:26 I mean, Schonfinkel's idea was really clever in that context 18:29:37 funny: http://rafb.net/p/L2FgYp89.html (I added the comment) 18:29:37 however, trying to port it into another context fails in this case 18:29:51 but what is the true wtf 18:30:14 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:30:18 ais523, ^ 18:30:25 AnMaster: is postfunc declared volatile? 18:30:47 that's the only real hope of sanity here 18:30:48 ais523, no 18:30:55 ais523, it is a local auto variable 18:31:02 is closefunc local or global? 18:31:06 not that it really matters 18:31:07 local too 18:31:23 (it will get put into a struct that is constructed a bit below 18:31:30 ais523, clearly a case of copy-and-paste error 18:31:33 yes 18:31:42 the right way would be to use macros to avoid code duplication too 18:31:43 the second and third ifs are unreachable, aren't they 18:32:03 yes, and the second one should check closefunc, and the third one should be removed 18:32:27 well, I agree with you that that looks like the obvious fix 18:32:29 what's that from>? 18:33:28 ais523, crossfire 18:33:35 I was debugging another issue when I ran into that 18:38:11 oh dear 18:38:13 http://www.xsharp.org/ 18:38:35 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 18:38:50 * ais523 tries to figure out what paradigm it is 18:39:34 hmm... looks imperative 18:40:06 wow interesting 18:40:09 but they implemented functional programming too 18:40:17 ais523, the desc sounds "tree rewriting" 18:40:21 it isn't, though 18:40:24 heh ok 18:40:54 or is it? 18:40:56 I'm confused 18:40:59 it seems to use append-child a lot 18:41:48 heh, the wiki's main page is 18:41:49 #REDIRECT [[X Sharp on wheels]] 18:42:38 and the protection level of the original main page is move/edit at autoconfirmed 18:42:42 so anons can't even fix those problems 18:42:56 someone's gone to the effort of getting autoconfirmed, then vandlising it... 18:44:26 This is only slightly more annoying than LOLCODE. 18:47:45 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:56:28 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 19:09:48 A 19:10:05 ehird: there is no response to that. You win already. 19:10:05 B 19:10:15 now, stop using such a degenerate opening 19:10:21 still, you have to say B 19:10:33 :D 19:10:36 -!- ais523 has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game. 19:12:00 "the channel that is more than gay sex" 19:13:38 PONG 19:13:45 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game. 19:13:48 er 19:13:55 ehird: ? 19:14:01 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 19:14:07 now it is a complete description 19:14:21 ok, I admit that's a #esoteric meme 19:14:25 although I don't like it 19:14:33 and it's hardly unique to #esoteric like some of the others are 19:14:45 well, I suppose messing with the topic isn't a #esoteric-specific meme 19:14:49 what about the goat sacrifices? 19:14:49 the loglink possibly is, though 19:14:57 oerjan: they never really caught on 19:15:12 they're still new aren't they 19:15:22 and we only use it when there are newbies 19:15:52 ais523: gay sex is certainly a recurring theme here, you can't deny it :P 19:15:59 I didn't 19:16:00 we must be objective. 19:16:10 I just tried to redefine the inclusion criteria instead 19:16:17 also, don't scare off the new peopel 19:16:30 the new people need thicker skin to survive here :-P 19:16:31 would probably be silly to add esolangs to the list? 19:16:42 oklofok: when do we talk about esolangs? 19:16:42 oklofok: those aren't exactly a meme 19:16:43 exactly. 19:16:46 they're what the channel is for 19:16:50 "languages. occasionally programming ones." 19:17:02 that's #linguistics. 19:17:02 ais523: not talking about esolangs, though, is. 19:17:07 yes 19:17:08 somewhat 19:17:22 not that i like that one either :P 19:17:29 lament: does #linguistics still have a strict anti-gay-sex policy? 19:20:47 adadasdasdasd 19:20:49 dfsddddddddddddddddddddd 19:23:38 -!- olsner has joined. 19:35:24 a 19:36:26 c 19:36:29 d 19:36:34 t 19:36:59 v 19:37:04 * 19:37:06 z 19:37:06 z 19:37:07 z 19:37:08 m 19:37:10 z 19:37:15 p 19:37:17 $% 19:37:36 FOUL! 19:37:43 no 19:37:46 that is valid perl code 19:37:48 i 19:37:50 valid after a z-onslaught 19:37:54 k 19:37:57 ? 19:38:02 z 19:38:08 ni 19:38:37 ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 19:38:47 FOWL! 19:39:04 yep, I win 19:39:07 due to the perl maneuver 19:39:09 right? 19:39:19 s/win/lose 19:39:26 what? 19:40:00 why? 19:40:23 to see how long it takes someone to add the final slash 19:40:26 Because look at the rules, oerjan 19:40:36 RULE 1 : ehird loses 19:40:43 Slereah: buy a real rulebook, lamer. 19:40:49 ais523: see p645, section 9 19:41:01 ehird: in the ANSI or ISO edition? 19:41:09 the rules are the same, but the page numbering is different... 19:41:12 Jekyll & Montgomery 19:41:22 Third.FirstFourth edition 19:42:11 wait i only have the DVD version 19:42:57 that works too 19:43:03 just use the xref tool included 19:43:10 which translates various reference numbers 19:43:23 with appendix by Hyde & Seech 19:43:39 sorry, I'll just the standardized numbering system from now on (you know, they put it in a whole other spec because none of the specs are consistent enough...) 19:44:37 the standard with arabic numerals or the one with babylonian numerals? 19:45:09 arabic, since we're modern people here. 19:45:21 yeah i know the last one is really only used on MSN, and is overcomplicated 19:45:47 let's have a rematch... with the swatter 19:45:49 >:D 19:45:52 d 19:46:41 n 19:46:55 n 19:47:11 hm clever move 19:47:18 ha 19:47:18 foul 19:47:24 now I have the swatter 19:47:28 k 19:47:30 no you don't! 19:47:34 sure i do 19:47:39 the swatter must not be used for games! 19:47:46 19:45 < ehird> let's have a rematch... with the swatter 19:47:53 im not talking about the physical swatter 19:48:00 see p1333, section 8 19:48:03 oh 19:48:12 ah but then you still lose 19:48:21 you said "foul" rather than "swat" 19:48:29 i didn't have the swatter 19:48:31 so i couldn't swat 19:48:32 only foul 19:48:34 gainign me the swatter 19:48:45 hm... 19:48:55 Z 19:49:00 Q 19:49:07 § 19:49:13 å 19:49:19 e 19:49:24 î 19:49:42 w 19:49:46 w 19:49:51 w 19:50:04 * ehird swats oerjan for making a triplication ---### 19:50:08 v 19:50:15 v 19:50:19 a 19:50:26 foul 19:50:31 a 19:50:35 [nice try, but that was no foul] 19:50:45 sure it was, the triplication was a trap 19:51:01 right but the letter differenciation was 3 19:51:02 after it you have to triplicate, see p983 19:51:11 oh, you're right 19:51:15 ok, swatter goes back to you 19:51:25 R 19:51:38 R 19:51:45 r 19:51:50 o 19:51:53 b 19:51:58 b 19:52:00 e 19:52:08 b 19:52:15 2 19:52:22 Irish people are often green. 19:52:25 * ehird steals swatter 19:52:32 2 19:52:34 (Irish trick, see p1334 section 9) 19:52:37 3 19:52:52 3 19:52:53 s 19:52:56 s 19:53:01 foul 19:53:04 whaaaaaaaaat 19:53:14 after the irish trick you have to do consonant mutation 19:53:22 dammit 19:53:28 swatter goes back to you 19:53:30 hey ais523 19:53:33 participate :P 19:53:51 nn 19:53:55 nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn 19:53:58 meh, too busy trying to prove a slightly modified version of Russel's Paradox to be self-contradictory 19:54:15 19 19:54:28 A(g64,g64) 19:54:38 [triple score for letters+numbers+mathematical expression] 19:54:58 darn i lose, i cannot make enough letters on irc to answer that 19:55:05 yay 19:55:07 oklofok: 19:56:15 i still say the rules don't take irc properly into account, the internet appendices are really only suitable for email 19:56:32 nah, the email game is obsolete 19:56:35 it relies on real-time, really 19:56:44 oerjan: i suggest Wadler's book 19:56:58 wadler plays this game? 19:57:07 it's a 100 page or so summary of little things to know when playing over realtime communication like irc 19:57:15 hm was it he who made the haskell ai for it? 19:57:22 I believe so 19:57:28 unfortunately it's a bit slow 19:57:31 so not really suited to irc. 19:57:33 yeah 19:57:52 if it wasn't they'd have amended the rules 19:58:04 to make it slower and prevent cheating 19:58:09 well naturally. it's like... the most antagonistic rule committee ever :-D 19:58:14 but we luv em. 19:59:04 yeah putting paul graham in the committee was not such a great idea 19:59:13 good thing they kicked him out in 2004 19:59:30 i mean seriously can you remember oerjan? 19:59:33 "my arc AI is sooo fast" 19:59:39 well that was one good thing that came out of the haskell ai 19:59:41 did he ever contribute a non-reverted rule? 20:00:08 he did some quine-based ones 20:00:28 nobody uses them do they? 20:00:44 nobody understands them 20:01:02 500 lines of incomprehensible symbols 20:01:07 heh 20:01:16 well i guess people in this channel could decipher it 20:02:57 i mean _technically_ one of them is official, but no one has ever managed to call that rule without using an AI 20:03:13 did the ai produce a pretty parse tree? 20:03:16 that would help 20:03:25 which of course means disqualification in most tournaments 20:03:45 meh, this is a #esoteric tournament 20:03:49 it should be allowed here 20:03:49 except the RobLet Cup 20:03:53 but only if written in an esolang 20:03:59 heh 20:04:12 in fact, I propose that right now, as 270:A 20:04:25 not a nomic :P 20:04:37 propose it to the committee, or we can just bend rules to it 20:04:40 but proposing is cheating 20:04:48 there's a house rule provision but it has to be anonymous 20:04:59 can't be anonymous on irc, really 20:05:00 so. 20:05:17 would have been unanimous but a misspelling crept through 20:05:27 :-D 20:05:42 oerjan: for a laugh look at p2457 20:05:50 it's written in a special font 20:05:52 all italics 20:05:53 oerjan: don't, it's a goatse 20:05:56 and the rule parts are so nested 20:06:00 that they have to use differing font size 20:06:02 to disambiguate 20:06:08 ais523: similar effect on the brain... 20:06:26 the fractal maze rule, yeah i've seen it 20:06:44 oerjan: also, one of the first uses of monads outside of category theory 20:06:49 i think it won some art prize 20:06:51 it's actually structured as a monadic operation 20:06:53 if you look closely 20:07:12 um it's that old? 20:07:16 yeah 20:07:19 been revised of course 20:07:30 it would have to be from before the 90s 20:07:47 yes 20:07:52 it's from 1980-something 20:08:30 oerjan: p329 is from the *1970s*, unchanged... 20:08:33 err, typo 20:08:37 3329 20:09:21 actually the page number was changed. there were only 2000 pages before they computerized the rules 20:09:33 yeah but they did that really early on 20:09:34 late 70s 20:09:42 so it's expanded a lot by now 20:10:14 i hear the next edition won't fit on an ordinary DVD 20:10:21 um it does? 20:10:26 barely 20:10:28 oh right, the old text version 20:10:30 hyper-compressed 20:10:32 on a large dvd 20:10:38 oerjan: you have the multi-dvd version I assume? 20:10:42 since you know about the formatting 20:10:57 well, you have to really 20:11:07 ehird: meh, you just need the multi-dvd compression algorithm 20:11:18 which can decode the entire ruleset from the picture of Lenna 20:11:25 oh not that joke again 20:11:30 puhleeze, that got old in 1999 20:11:36 ehird: I made it in reverse this time 20:11:46 You can decode pretty much anything from the picture of Lenna 20:11:47 oh, right 20:11:47 sorry 20:11:49 I know from experience 20:11:54 lament: creepy 20:12:16 now, really creepy would have been if AnMaster had got that joke before my explanation 20:12:22 whilst ehird still needed one... 20:12:42 ais523: yeah um the likelyhood of that is 0. 20:12:50 i just misread 20:12:50 only because AnMaster is idle 20:13:01 i just misread, sheesh 20:13:08 i just have one DVD. it's the special internet version leaving out the physical play rules. 20:13:25 oerjan: wait, the internet is just an appendix 20:13:27 oh, wait, that one 20:13:30 that one is actually a trick 20:13:35 it downloads the complete rules from the internet 20:13:40 that's why the install takes so long 20:13:41 no wonder oerjan's been doing so badly all this time 20:13:46 no 20:13:48 he has the full rules 20:13:48 rubbish, my disk is not that large 20:13:56 oerjan: yes, the disk just downloads the rules 20:14:02 bit of a ripoff :P 20:14:09 my _hard_disk_ is not that large 20:14:14 oh right 20:14:16 well how big is it 20:14:22 the rules fit compressed on a few dvds 20:14:25 so unless your hd is tiny... 20:14:45 55 GB 20:14:50 that's big enough 20:16:37 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 20:16:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:17:12 someone highlighted me? 20:17:40 no 20:17:42 no they didn't 20:17:47 AnMaster: they were discussing a joke you couldn't possibly have got 20:17:56 or something like that, anyway 20:19:02 well I actually know about Lenna, but I would have thought ais got it the wrong way round instead realising that he meant it as that. 20:19:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:19:10 afk again 20:24:00 -!- ais523_ has joined. 20:28:00 -!- ais523_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:28:26 -!- ais523_ has joined. 20:28:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U2charist 20:29:31 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:38:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:38:24 ehird, wow 20:39:39 -!- ais523_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:41:55 -!- ais523_ has joined. 20:42:19 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 20:46:00 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 20:53:57 yay, they finally fixed MediaWiki bug 10569 20:54:01 and I only reported it in 2007 20:54:14 not that it's a particularly important one 20:54:22 I only found it deliberately trying to provoke a failure mode 20:54:36 but still, I can imagine a vandal having used it for something malicious 20:55:14 what was it? 20:56:29 -!- ais523 has quit. 20:56:39 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:57:33 yay i guessed correct what the two most common letters are when measured by amount of google results for 20 of those characters. 20:57:44 :-D 20:57:51 first is trivial to guess 20:58:55 after second i though mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm might be third, but there i went wrong 20:59:23 what did you guess? 20:59:33 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa? 20:59:33 well x is the first of course 20:59:37 w is the second. 20:59:37 ... wat 20:59:42 seriously? 20:59:44 wgat 20:59:44 XD 21:00:06 x means "unspecified", w i guessed based on www being a common acronym :P 21:00:24 i'm not sure that's the reason. point is i was right, not why i was right. 21:00:44 I thought AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH or something would top 21:01:03 awwwwwwwwwwwwwww 21:01:28 let's just say loads of letters 20 times in here so google indexes them 21:01:29 :P 21:01:55 \o/ 21:01:59 oooooooooooooooooooo 21:02:00 oooooooooooooooooooo 21:02:00 oooooooooooooooooooo 21:02:01 oooooooooooooooooooo 21:02:01 oooooooooooooooooooo 21:02:02 oooooooooooooooooooo 21:02:17 oooooooooooooooooooo 21:02:18 oooooooooooooooooooo 21:02:18 oooooooooooooooooooo 21:02:20 oooooooooooooooooooo 21:02:20 oooooooooooooooooooo 21:02:22 oooooooooooooooooooo 21:02:25 oooooooooooooooooooo 21:05:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 21:06:03 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:08:23 ^ul (o):::***::::****( )*(~:S~:^):^ 21:08:24 oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooo ...too much output! 21:11:06 -!- ais523_ has joined. 21:11:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:11:40 ugh, they didn't even fix the actual bug 21:11:46 just its symptoms 21:11:48 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 21:11:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:13:12 ais523: link 21:13:29 https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10569 21:16:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:17:00 [[Redirects to Special:Mypage and Special:Mytalk are no longer allowed]] 21:17:02 painful 21:17:06 can we murder the mediawiki devs? 21:17:17 the problem is, there might be other pages with the same problem 21:17:19 now or in the future 21:17:35 the problem is, there might be other mediawiki devs, now or in the future 21:17:55 again, let's kill MW devs. 21:18:05 OK, the fix makes the list configurable 21:18:19 and there are some special pages which shouldn't be redirectable-to, like Special:Userlogout 21:19:52 Special:LaunchMissiles 21:19:59 ais523: wait, does that work on wikipedia? 21:20:06 I may have to give in to my inner vandal... 21:20:25 ehird: no 21:20:35 all redirs to special pages are blocked on Wikipedia 21:20:38 dammit. wait, are you only saying that because of [[WP:BEANS]]? 21:20:52 [[I see a featured article on Washington D.C., and the image File:Obama_Portrait_2006.jpg on the Main Page. This is absolutely ridiculous -- the U.S. is not the only country in the world, and filling the Main Page just because of the upcoming inauguration is obviously a violation of NPOV. 21:20:58 ]] 21:21:00 *facepalm* 21:21:00 no, WP:BEANS technically says "Don't tell people not to do something, because they'll be certain to try" 21:21:24 nothing about not giving vandalism hints, although there are good reasons not to do that either 21:21:59 -!- adimit has quit ("leaving"). 21:23:27 -!- adimit has joined. 21:23:50 move to Wikipedia:Main Page 21:23:50 shouldn't this page moved out of the article Space? this is only one of some Wikipedia-related things, so please put it into the Wikipedia: namespace, thanks. --84.44.177.212 (talk) 14:13, 20 January 2009 (UTC) 21:23:54 oh no... 21:24:22 Portal: 21:24:24 please, Portal 21:24:28 that's what it's designed for 21:24:43 I saw you in one of those debates about it from like 2006 a while ago 21:24:47 Typical ais523 :-P 21:25:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:REMOVE_THIS_TEMPLATE_WHEN_CLOSING_THIS_AfD 21:25:34 name 21:25:35 ever 21:25:37 best 21:25:40 template 21:25:42 ehird: iirc moving the Main Page has been discussed before 21:25:46 especially since it has nothing to do with its naming, other than being useful in the source 21:25:50 oerjan: I know, thus "oh no" 21:25:52 the debates were... heated 21:26:06 ehird: sorry about that 21:26:09 the name sort-of stuck 21:26:19 wait you made it? 21:26:27 I had to invent a migration path for AfD that people could follow without breaking anything and without realising it was happening 21:26:30 and yes, I made it 21:26:33 ha 21:26:45 although I wasn't an admin back then 21:27:05 istr someone pondering what would happen if something noteable with the name "Main Page" appeared 21:27:06 "Starting to implement Wikipedia:AfD reform. This template is initially blank so that the process can be started without interfering with AfD." 21:27:11 :-D 21:27:12 that happens a lot 21:27:28 AfD? 21:27:38 Articles for Deletion. 21:28:08 aaaaaaaaaaaaazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzxxxxxxxxccccccvbnm,. 21:28:11 the heavyweight process for deleting things that not even admins can get away with just arbitrarily deleting 21:28:16 OOH! I wanna make an esolang. 21:28:22 I just remembered, you know. 21:28:24 Esolangs! 21:28:37 I may or may not be forgetful <_________< 21:29:43 a forgetful esolang! 21:29:47 You know, slashdot would be better if it wasn't so impossible to read the comments. 21:29:50 call it GoldFish 21:29:59 (yeah i know it's a myth) 21:29:59 oerjan: yes 21:30:08 oerjan: although the new standard is Digg users 21:30:18 Mark Pilgrim proved that Digg's memory is shorter than a goldfishes 21:30:20 scientifically 21:30:27 oo 21:30:31 http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/10/02/digg 21:32:18 i like the striked out Japanese Chinese 21:32:48 -!- adimit has left (?). 21:40:12 hmm 21:40:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:40:25 is there a turing-complete OISC with only one operand? 21:40:40 yes, http://esolangs.org/wiki/RSSB 21:40:46 ok, what about _no_ operands? 21:40:51 ehird: how many operands would you say MiniMAX has? 21:41:04 not sure 21:41:09 let me check 21:41:14 Word of data to send to the previous command 21:41:18 so, definitely >0 21:42:19 hmm 21:42:24 maybe something stack-based 21:44:33 one instruction, no operands, er that leaves very little actual information content... 21:45:48 oerjan: hardcoded data 21:45:51 can drive it 21:46:19 um then the real program is the data, surely 21:46:26 no 21:46:30 because the amount of times it runs differs 21:46:42 you sequence it 21:46:45 cmd ; cmd ; cmd 21:46:49 data: "&*^&*^~HDCUJ" 21:46:50 ehird: the problem with MiniMAX is that the operands sort of blur between different commmands 21:46:56 although they're definitely there 21:47:03 also, the program is the data 21:47:17 both 21:47:23 the programs is the ocruances of cmd + the data 21:47:34 i mangled that. 21:47:54 ehird the evil mangler 21:48:18 no, that's ghc's Literate Perl script 21:48:23 (it mangles gcc's assembly output) 21:48:27 and yes, literate perl 21:48:30 comments are default 21:48:34 it's filtered before using 21:48:54 ehird: you could just do that with a source filter 21:49:23 no 21:49:27 they run perl on it, IIRC 21:49:30 to get the perl script 21:49:38 why not? 21:49:55 that's what a source filter /is/ 21:50:19 they don't use a source filter 21:50:42 ais523: then it wouldn't be as evil, duh 21:53:59 Literate Perl? 21:54:01 So evil 22:00:34 literate perl? is that when you have alphanumerics in your source? 22:01:56 groan 22:01:59 -!- Corun has joined. 22:04:15 -!- adimit has joined. 22:16:22 -!- Max_D has joined. 22:20:28 xP 22:20:36 hi 22:20:58 hello 22:22:56 hello, are you Max Demian from the wiki? 22:25:02 if so, nice of you to make an omgrofl implementation just as hope of retrieving the original was lost 22:25:33 ALLLLLL HOOOOOPE 22:25:53 also, it's very funny to see LOLCODE beaten at its own game 22:25:53 by almost a yea 22:25:53 *year 22:26:04 i _specifically_ rubbed out the word "all", after typing it 22:26:21 i supposed technically someone _could_ have mirrored it 22:26:43 oerjan: I thought the location at which all hope was lost was the entrance to Malbolge 22:26:49 Wiki is down :( 22:26:53 no it's not 22:27:03 er wait 22:27:21 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 22:27:23 it just locked up 22:27:32 sorry, went afk, yeah I am Max Demian from the wiki 22:27:46 oerjan: it's working for me I think 22:27:55 me too, it was just temporary 22:28:04 works now 22:28:47 yeah, I have lots of free time, lol. playing with omgrofl just seemed like a good time killer, lol 22:28:47 I want to kill the creator of LOLCode. 22:28:49 :| 22:29:48 ehird: HAI. I CAN HAS AXE IN SKULL? 22:30:03 oerjan: YES WE CAN 22:30:05 KTHXBYE 22:30:57 CAN HAZ, surely? 22:31:02 or is LOLCODE behind the times? 22:31:15 ais523: i'm not entirely fluent 22:31:20 I'm going to write GoL in Haskell. :-D 22:31:25 GoL? 22:31:30 Game of Life. 22:31:33 ok 22:31:35 Step one: neighboursFold 22:31:39 A fold, but includes neighbours. 22:31:48 why not implement the rest of RedGreen while you're at it? 22:31:51 or ALPACA, fwiw? 22:31:53 meh 22:31:56 GoL is simpler 22:31:57 the ALPACA reference interp is rubbish 22:32:17 hmm... 22:32:25 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 22:32:26 I think Lahey Space is a good fit for GoL. 22:32:30 i.e., wrapping neighbours, but infinite field 22:32:43 good grief 22:32:55 what 22:32:58 ehird: it wouldn't make a difference 22:33:06 ais523: why not? 22:33:07 Lahey space wrapping only matters when you project rays 22:33:11 you have a cell at the top bound 22:33:13 and at the bottom 22:33:18 the top cell has the bottom as a neighbour 22:33:20 and vise-versa 22:33:20 oh, it's bounded? 22:33:21 is what I mean 22:33:22 BUT 22:33:22 despite being infinite? 22:33:27 if the cell went higher 22:33:30 it'd still have the same neighbour 22:33:31 ais523: yes 22:33:35 the bounds expand 22:33:39 and contract 22:33:44 and neighbours take the bounds into account 22:33:44 oh, it's a torus which gets bigger 22:33:49 and smaller 22:33:50 when does it get bigger? 22:33:51 essentially 22:33:54 when things get near the edge? 22:34:01 ais523: when they hit beyond the edge 22:34:02 if so, it's likely to expand indefinitely due to gliders 22:34:04 ais523: you just store the boundaries 22:34:08 of the whole thing 22:34:12 ehird: wait... 22:34:15 how do they get beyond 22:34:17 ... 22:34:18 in a wrapping environment? 22:34:18 they move. 22:34:24 ais523: wrapping is only for neighbours 22:34:26 cells in Life don't move 22:34:30 gliders do 22:34:32 ais523: wrapping is only for neighbours 22:34:34 no, they don't 22:34:36 not movement 22:34:42 ehird: there is no movement in Life 22:34:43 night 22:34:45 gliders don't move 22:34:48 ... no shit 22:34:49 rather, nearby cells turn on 22:34:51 listen to me 22:34:52 to continue it 22:34:55 AnMaster: night 22:34:55 when a cell turns on outside the field 22:34:59 the field expands 22:35:06 but for neighbour calculation, it wraps at the edges 22:35:12 ehird: but the cell at the opposite side of the field would also turn on? 22:35:15 by the same logic 22:35:18 that's getting weird and messed-up, now 22:35:21 there's no movement in the real world 22:35:23 um, no, ais523 22:35:31 ehird: imagine a glider hitting the edge of the map 22:35:34 what part of "WRAPPING ONLY APPLIES TO NEIGHBOURS" don't you get 22:35:34 the cells beyond it turn on 22:35:41 the cells at the other end of the map also turn on 22:35:42 all of it, apparently. 22:35:48 by only applying to neighbours 22:35:55 ehird: what are the neighbors of a cell far outside the field? 22:36:05 There is nothing outside of the field... 22:36:06 oerjan: they wrap, obviously, wrapping only applies to neighbours 22:36:16 ais523: what I mean is 22:36:19 ehird: suppose a cell isn't on 22:36:19 ehird: so where do new cells come from? 22:36:23 when you run the "flipState" function 22:36:27 you pass neighbours that wrap 22:36:28 and at the other end of the field, there are three consecutive on cells 22:36:29 but NOTHING ELSE wraps 22:36:30 AT ALL 22:36:41 ehird: then how do the cells outside the boundary ever turn on 22:36:42 ais523: the GoL calculations only deal with the middle cell 22:36:43 to flip 22:37:09 ehird: anyway you _are_ going to get strange edge effects this way 22:37:11 ehird: then how do the cells outside the boundary ever turn on 22:37:29 ais523: you're not making any sense to me 22:37:41 ehird: neither are you to anyone else 22:37:53 calculating neighbours seems easy to calculate for cells inside the grid 22:37:58 given your current clear definitions 22:38:01 but expanding the grid doesn't 22:38:10 as cells outside the grid don't seem to have defined neighbours to know when to turn on 22:38:22 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:38:39 meh, I'll just make it unbounded. 22:38:43 even though this will cause me hell. 22:39:07 (in that you have to store the boundaries) 22:39:20 * ais523 vaguely wonders what C## would be like, if it existed 22:39:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:39:37 #csharp exists 22:39:40 #c# redirecst there 22:39:45 yes, but that's only one sharp 22:39:55 arguably, C## would be D, based on enharmonics 22:39:58 but that's stretching it a bit 22:39:58 heh 22:41:14 neighbours :: Grid -> Point -> Neighbours 22:41:19 wonder if that should be Point -> Grid 22:43:22 Hrm. 22:43:27 Do most Life implementations store bounds? 22:43:30 I'm sure there's a trick 22:43:38 they vary 22:44:12 Well, how do you transform an infinite grid apart from storing bounds? 22:44:37 Also, isn't a wrapping Life easier to look at? :P 22:45:03 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 22:45:46 it wreaks some havoc with simulations if you wrap though, even if the live field is not that large - gliders tend to come back and ruin things 22:46:23 Coooooooooooooooool, my random pattern spawned a glider 22:46:23 oerjan: all life patterns tend to mess up after a while :P 22:46:26 * Max_D bleh 22:46:35 i mean mess up compared to the ideal 22:53:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:56:10 * Max_D killed the convo with his bleh! 22:56:30 it happens 22:56:39 also, ais523 left 23:03:46 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 23:07:21 Night 23:07:45 -!- FireyFly has quit ("Brb IRL"). 23:08:50 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("hejdå!"). 23:09:16 whee, maze generating cellular automata! 23:09:17 bleh, half the languages in this wiki are the exact same language just with different ways of doing the same thing... no originality =/ 23:09:26 they are all brainfuck basically xP 23:09:27 Max_D: we agree :-) 23:09:34 everyone's first langi s a brainfuck clone... 23:10:03 instead of > you do poop, and < is doodoo, and + is crap 23:10:08 it's feces++ 23:10:29 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:10:39 amazing 23:12:19 it's gonna be HUGE 23:26:27 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 23:36:37 Life in matlab: nlfilter(A,[3 3],@(N)sum(sum(N))==3||N(5)&&sum(sum(N))==4) 23:37:04 (can't figure out how to only evaluate sum(sum(N)) once...) 23:39:19 nice 23:39:29 ... or just type 'life' 23:39:31 MizardX: nlfilter sounds ... specialized 23:39:40 non-linear filter 23:39:55 image filtering 23:40:24 [3 3] is the size of the sub-image you want passed to the function 23:41:08 * Max_D wonders what you are talking about :P 23:44:11 conways game of life, and image processing, in matlab 23:46:24 better implementation in the built-in version: 23:46:24 n = [m 1:m-1]; e = [2:m 1]; s = [2:m 1]; w = [m 1:m-1]; 23:46:26 while 1, 23:46:28 N = X(n,:) + X(s,:) + X(:,e) + X(:,w) + X(n,e) + X(n,w) + X(s,e) + X(s,w); 23:46:30 X = (X & (N == 2)) | (N == 3); 23:46:32 end 2009-01-22: 00:10:38 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 00:32:39 MizardX: does matlab have lambdas? 00:32:49 combinators? forks? 00:33:50 I think @(params)expr could be considered a lambda-function... combinators and forks, I don't know. 00:34:53 well. you can rename the sum with a lambda and use the name 00:35:10 but err. seems like there could be a simple more mathematical hack there 00:37:32 nah probably not 00:39:20 min(abs(sum(sum(N)) - 3 - [N(5) 0])) == 0 00:39:29 err matlab doesn't distinguish between functions and lists? 00:39:31 i mean syntactically 00:39:54 what does [N(5) 0] mean? 00:40:02 oh 00:40:04 implicit map 00:40:50 hmm 00:40:52 oh abs 00:40:52 All values are matrices. Scalars have dimension 1x1. 00:41:04 couldn't you skip the abs and use max? 00:41:57 err 00:42:01 i see i see 00:42:11 but it's an implicit map in that case? 00:42:16 i mean. 00:42:25 well. 00:42:32 i still don't know what [N(5) 0] means 00:42:43 unless it's an array of size 2 containing those two 00:43:03 [1 2 3; 4 5 6; 7 8 9] is the syntax for matrices 00:43:55 N(5) is the fifth element of N (ignoring the second dimension) 00:43:58 2:42, need to sleep now. anyway i'll just assume i guessed it right because it works :P 00:44:01 i know it is 00:44:34 are arrays functions in matlab, can you pass them to, say, map? 00:44:46 but really, sleep, can't keep my eyes open 00:44:50 cya ~> 00:45:45 Hard to explain everything. Most the syntax have evolved and are there for convenience. 00:46:32 Matlab is good att matrix and vector calculation. 00:47:49 If you can express an algorithm as a matrix/vector expression, then matlab can execute it quickly. 00:49:15 A * B = matrix product, with special casing for vector and scalar values. 00:52:48 -!- bsmntbombgirl has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:49 -!- Dewi has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:49 -!- Slereah has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:50 -!- oktabot has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:50 -!- CakeProphet has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:50 -!- GregorR has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:55 -!- sebbu2 has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:55 -!- kerlobot has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:56 -!- adimit has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:57 -!- MizardX has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:57 -!- Judofyr has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:57 -!- oklofok has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:59 -!- decipher_ has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:59 -!- kerlo has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:59 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:00 -!- dbc has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:00 -!- pikhq has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:01 -!- AnMaster has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:02 -!- comex has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:03 -!- lament has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:03 -!- rodgort has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:04 -!- mtve has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:04 -!- SimonRC has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:54:18 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 00:54:18 -!- kerlobot has joined. 00:54:53 -!- comex has joined. 00:55:04 -!- adimit has joined. 00:55:04 -!- Judofyr has joined. 00:55:04 -!- oklofok has joined. 00:55:04 -!- MizardX has joined. 00:55:04 -!- decipher_ has joined. 00:55:04 -!- kerlo has joined. 00:55:06 -!- oktabot has joined. 00:55:06 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 00:55:06 -!- GregorR has joined. 00:55:27 -!- Dewi has joined. 00:55:27 -!- Slereah has joined. 00:55:55 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:55:55 -!- dbc has joined. 00:55:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:55:56 -!- bsmntbombgirl has joined. 00:56:27 -!- lament has joined. 00:56:30 -!- SimonRC has joined. 00:58:17 -!- rodgort has joined. 01:04:10 the fuck? 01:15:32 typical netsplit, apprently 01:56:11 * Max_D whistles 02:44:20 oktabot! 02:45:19 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:47:02 * Max_D loves the fishes cuase they're so delicious 02:59:33 -!- mtve has joined. 03:06:44 -!- Max_D has quit. 04:21:01 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 04:21:24 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 06:15:27 -!- Max_D has joined. 06:15:41 arrrrr 06:19:46 * Max_D wakes everybody up 06:20:35 o.o 06:52:50 soooooooooo... 07:37:27 -!- Max_D has quit ("$hiv++"). 07:58:06 -!- AnMaster has joined. 07:58:29 -!- AnMaster has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:41 -!- AnMaster has joined. 08:18:46 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 08:21:48 -!- metazilla has joined. 08:21:49 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:22:00 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 08:24:50 -!- amca has joined. 08:32:04 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:38:15 -!- metazilla has joined. 08:38:17 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:38:25 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 08:39:01 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:39:03 -!- metazilla has joined. 08:42:23 so 08:42:40 so 08:47:45 i wonder 08:48:34 What do you wonder? 08:48:49 what kinds of programming can we do if we force the entire model to be MISD 08:49:47 As in Multiple Instruction, Single data? 08:49:54 yeah 08:50:01 im using it loosely here ofcourse 08:50:03 but like 08:50:21 I think it would be called CISC. ;) 08:50:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:51:02 if we had to force all our functions to accept one and only one argument 08:51:12 except the functions that act like reduces 08:51:13 psygnisfive: then you'd end up with Unlambda? 08:51:17 :P 08:51:43 Like Lambda Calculus? 08:51:51 no no i mean more like 08:52:28 amca: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unlambda 08:52:37 well, im not really sure what i mean 08:52:43 it's one of the seminal esolangs, you should look it up if you don't know it 08:53:56 im just thinking about how the brain processes data, and such. 08:54:11 i guess purely functional programming is vaguely like that i suppose 08:54:46 ais523: Ive come across it. It is more combinatorial logic than LC isnt it? 08:55:14 yes 08:55:23 although LC can be compiled into combinatorial logic 08:55:33 And vice versa? 08:55:36 I don't know of anyone who's tried to write Unlambda without going via LC first 08:55:39 except for very simple programs 08:59:24 hm.. everything-as-a-stream is interesting too 09:03:48 There is a name for that isnt there? Data programming languages? 09:04:09 well, there are stream programming languages 09:04:17 but i dont know of a language where _everything_ must be a stream 09:04:23 all data, anyway 09:05:26 Sceql? 09:06:09 no i mean a real language :p 09:09:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:09:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:10:56 -!- rodgort has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:10:56 -!- bsmntbombgirl has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:11:35 -!- rodgort has joined. 09:11:35 -!- bsmntbombgirl has joined. 09:17:28 -!- Leonidas has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:17:34 -!- Leonidas has joined. 09:48:56 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:55:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 10:01:43 -!- oprz has joined. 10:02:12 hi 10:02:20 hello 10:02:26 i was coding in +'s and .'s 10:02:28 is this ok? 10:02:41 in brainfuck? 10:02:51 yeah 10:03:08 well you can print fixed strings that way 10:03:35 well with wrapping cells 10:04:07 oh 10:04:15 i dont like brainfuck that much 10:04:33 i like the PHP function used for parsing brainfuck code 10:04:36 that is cool 10:04:45 * oerjan doesn't know PHP 10:05:09 but brainfuck is implemented in almost everything 10:05:40 how do you mean 10:06:13 there are implementations in lots of languages. 10:06:33 oh 10:06:51 it's so simple it's very easy to implement 10:07:04 i think it is hard to implement 10:07:11 but then again my brain is small 10:07:20 not compared to nearly any other languages 10:07:40 whats the point of implementing another language into an existing language? 10:08:15 well you have to do it at least once to get the new language running at all :D 10:08:24 guess 10:08:59 but most people do it as a programming exercise i think 10:09:35 we have a page on our wiki about esoteric languages implemented in each other 10:09:44 cool 10:10:18 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/EsoInterpreters 10:14:30 will look later got to go now 10:14:41 bye 10:16:13 -!- oprz has left (?). 10:35:26 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:35:34 -!- puzzlet has joined. 10:57:19 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lost terminal"). 11:13:06 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:13:14 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:05:27 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 12:17:38 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:31:01 -!- ehird has joined. 12:31:55 hi! 12:38:37 lo? 12:42:14 hi. 12:44:37 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell"). 12:47:12 [] ([] a -> a) -> [] a 12:48:10 Quite so. 12:48:39 .. but can you implement it ? 12:48:53 Well, it's just [[a] -> a] -> [a]. 12:49:11 So, some fix magic there. 12:49:12 well `[]' doesn't stand for "List", here 12:49:19 ski__: What does it stand for? 12:49:30 `[]' is supposed to look like the "box" character 12:49:43 you can interpret `[]' as "Code", if you wish 12:49:50 What is it? :p 12:50:34 so, a value in `[] a' is an expression/code for a value in `a' 12:50:40 consider things like 12:50:43 Ah. 12:50:44 eval :: [] a -> a 12:50:51 Like (2+2) :: [] Integer? 12:51:00 Or, well, you'd need a quoting char. 12:51:02 no, `2+2' is an integer 12:51:03 yes 12:51:04 {2+2} :: [] Integer? 12:51:07 like 12:51:12 `(+ 2 2) 12:51:14 in lisps 12:51:33 Okay. so you pass it code that evaluates to a function that takes some code evaluating to type a and returns a value of type a. 12:51:42 And it gives you some code evaluating to type a. 12:51:48 (or `<2 + 2>' in MetaML .. i don't recall if MetaO'Caml had the same syntax there) 12:51:53 {eval} works for the first argument. 12:52:04 But what does it do? 12:52:18 i'm not sure 12:52:27 i'm trying to implement it to find out 12:52:38 i have a proof of it in a book 12:52:55 where `[]' is interpreted as "Provable" 12:52:58 foo x = eval x $ foo x 12:53:03 :-P 12:53:23 the proof i've seen seems quite remniscent of 12:53:33 ((lambda (u) 12:53:44 Is foo x = eval x $ foo x not a valid definition? 12:53:48 `(,u ',u)) 12:53:53 '(lambda (u) 12:53:56 `(,u ',u))) 12:54:14 ski__: foo x = eval x $ foo x 12:54:16 wouldw ork, no? 12:54:17 (if you squint the right way) 12:54:23 err, actually 12:54:24 it'd be 12:54:28 foo x = {eval x $ foo x} 12:54:39 hm 12:55:45 i think that might often hang 12:56:09 (that definition is basically the `loebF :: Functor f => f (f a -> a) -> f a', i think) 12:56:16 Ha, loeb. 12:56:20 ski__: But, certainly it would. 12:56:24 It still meets the type. 12:56:27 yes, Loeb's theorem 12:56:35 Yes, I know 12:56:59 however, i think if one implements it correctly, it would never hang (on defined inputs) 12:57:08 "`'´" 12:57:19 (the logic in the book is supposed to be a consistent one ..) 12:57:56 (MizardX : never seen nestable quotes before ?) 12:58:40 (ehird : another strange thing is that `[] a -> a' is not generally provable in the logic (it would lead to contradiction)) 12:59:03 ski__: `' style quotes are pretty ugly :-P 12:59:05 also, really? odd 12:59:18 ski__: ah, goedel-y stuff? 13:00:34 if `[] a -> a' is a theorem, then `[] ([] a -> a)' is also a theorem, and by loeb's theorem `[] ([] a -> a) -> [] a', we could then deduce that `[] a' is a theorem .. 13:00:58 Therefore, the universe does not exist. 13:01:27 .. so if we want the logic to be consistent, and want `[]' to really mean "provable", then for any false `a' we'd better not have a proof of `[] a -> a' 13:01:35 Indeed. 13:01:39 [] a -> Maybe a? 13:01:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:01:53 Hi ais523. 13:01:54 hi ehird 13:02:02 you win, but not by much 13:03:48 (.. in any case, i'm trying to implement it in haskell .. by defining a data type `[]' .. but the quoting is not obvious how to handle) 13:03:56 whois ski__ 13:03:59 umm... 13:04:04 ais523 : i'm me 13:04:06 Defining a data type, [], might clash slightly :-P 13:04:12 why is #esoteric getting so many new people nowadays? 13:04:17 ski__ is an AI build out of the ski combinatory calculus 13:04:20 has esolanging accidentally become popular? 13:04:20 ais523: I brought this one from #haskell <_< 13:04:22 obviously i'm not calling it `[]' ! :) 13:04:46 also, one of our newbies only came here by chance 13:04:53 * ski__ has visited here once or twice before .. 13:05:06 hmm I think I may be mixing you up with someone else 13:05:06 :) 13:05:16 I'm worried that my INTERCAL evangelism may have gone too far... 13:05:38 Grepping the logs for 'ski' is nontrivial 13:05:49 * ski__ bows 13:05:54 06.03.19:08:04:31 --- join: ski__ (n=slj@84-217-32-122.tn.glocalnet.net) joined #esoteric 13:06:23 First occurance of "ski": 13:06:23 03.01.21:01:59:01 printed with a befunge prog or something? I recall seeing a sierpinski-triangle-printer once. 13:06:35 (YY.MM.DD:HH:MM:SS, in case anyone didn't know) 13:07:29 hmm... I keep hitting MichaelRaskin from #IRP 13:07:33 It was about one of dbc's printed-out ascii-art thingsies. 13:07:45 The name Michael Raskin rings a bell. 13:07:53 fizzie: wow, how can you remember that? 13:08:03 ehird: With the magic of 'grep'. 13:08:13 That is to say: I cheated. 13:08:25 :-D 13:09:21 well, ski__ and me have never been in the same channel at the same time before 13:09:24 at least not while I'm on this client 13:09:33 but that's not surprising, 2006 was before I got this laptop 13:09:59 ais523: You only came in here 200 13:10:01 2007 13:10:07 07.01.15:09:15:34 --- join: ais523 (n=chatzill@chillingi.eee.bham.ac.uk) joined #esoteric 13:10:30 ah, everyone loves CDE 13:10:37 which is the desktop environment that old server was running 13:10:44 yurgh 13:10:52 via X forwarding to a terminal running on Windows 13:11:03 You know, I think Windows would be preferable to that, ais523. 13:11:11 ehird: it didn't have an IRC client 13:11:16 and we weren't allowed to install executables 13:11:24 Use a web-based one? :p 13:11:33 besides, I did pretty much everything back then using xterm 13:11:40 that way the desktop environment didn't really matter 13:11:45 it's where I learnt the UNIX command line 13:14:41 09:45:05 Yes, I'm enjoying esolangs. I enjoyed the logs, too, before I had access to an IRC client. 13:14:46 you were a logreader before you ever came in 13:14:48 Impressive. 13:14:55 yes 13:14:59 they were linked from the wiki 13:15:17 took me a while to find an IRC client 13:15:24 without installing any software 13:15:28 or knowing about netcat/telnet 13:15:52 How did you install firefox? 13:15:53 err 13:15:54 chatzilla 13:15:57 I didn't 13:16:00 it was there already 13:16:02 Ah 13:16:11 Bloatzilla, then, I assume 13:17:21 it was a case of clicking on a irc:// link to see what happened 13:17:21 and that was a really old version of Mozilla 13:17:21 it did some really weird things 13:17:32 (I blanked Talk:Main Page on Wikipedia by accident, once, for instance, and quite a lot of my edits introduced spurious line breaks. I stopped using Mozilla for Wikipedia when I noticed.) 13:21:46 * ehird complains about human bias on Talk:Main_Page 13:22:24 Olol 13:22:24 It's a "featured article" full of bilge. This is one of the few really reprehensible things about Wikipedia: that we have so many brilliant articles but we filter them in such a manner that the most ridiculous crap is designated as the best we have. It's pretty horrible. If you're involved in this bilious process, stop. If you're not, stay away from it. Write about what need to be written about , edit the articles that need to be edited, and avoid the pr 13:22:35 Can Wikipedia pick a FA that won't be complained about? 13:22:41 Is it physically possible? 13:22:50 -!- Hiato has joined. 13:23:35 [[ I'm left with the urge to ask if wikipedia got paid for running this commercial. ]] 13:23:39 Nobody's EVER done that before! 13:23:59 ehird: I think there have been some FAs that haven't been complained about 13:24:06 although I can't think of one offhan 13:24:10 *offhand 13:27:26 (cut off at "... and avoid the pr") 13:29:04 ski__: you got the gist 13:29:35 was it a quote or something you actually wrote just above ? 13:30:45 quote 13:32:34 Wikipedia, request for discussion about the "Nasal Sex → Sexual intercourse" redirect: "Delete. Why would anyone search for nasal sex?" "While I don't wish to speculate the reason why, it was seached for 70 times in novemeber 2008 and 100 times in october." 13:33:22 Hah 13:33:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_Sex 13:33:43 Redirect fail 13:48:01 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:22:59 I entered here first 17 days before ais523 did: 14:22:59 06.12.29:12:42:41 --- join: ehird (n=ehird@user-5440e204.wfd80a.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #esoteric 14:23:04 But I didn't say anything. 14:23:09 I only returned in 2007. 14:23:18 2007-05-14, to be precise. 14:23:55 12:42:41 --- join: ehird (n=ehird@user-5440e204.wfd80a.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #esoteric 14:23:58 12:43:09 --- part: ehird left #esoteric 14:24:00 That's some epic shyness. 14:26:00 I should get a PhD in #esoteric Log Analysis. 14:27:44 so, like, i was at this lecture just now 14:27:48 and, like, there was this dude 14:27:51 in front of me 14:28:02 who was coding a function called parseDoubles in java 14:28:06 for two hours 14:28:20 what were you doing? 14:28:36 well correcting it for two hours, at the end of the lecture, the code was red with errors 14:28:47 :-D 14:28:48 err i was listening to the lecture and reading algebra 14:28:56 and watching him, silently lolling inside 14:29:16 oklofok: "silently lolling" is a bit of an oxymoron... 14:29:28 oklopol is an oxymoron 14:29:30 yeah, that was actually not intentional 14:29:32 he breathes, and he's a moron 14:29:34 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA 14:29:35 <__< 14:29:37 xxxxxxxxxxxxD 14:30:00 hahahaha that's the funniest joke I've made all year 14:30:06 ais523: also "silently xxxing inside" is the opposite of oxymoron 14:30:11 there's a term for it too right? 14:30:19 ehird: your jokes are even worse than AnMaster's 14:30:30 ? 14:30:32 oklofok: I'm not entirely sure if it's the opposite 14:30:38 14:30 < ais523> ehird: your jokes are even worse than AnMaster's 14:30:38 14:30 < AnMaster> ? 14:30:41 ah 14:30:44 AnMaster is physically incapable of looking up one line 14:30:44 actually 14:30:46 that was funny 14:30:50 :-P 14:31:04 oklopol is an oxymoron <-- I mean that one 14:31:05 it looks like it's the same thing, a contradiction negated is still a contradiction... 14:31:09 well, or a tautology 14:31:14 depending on what sort of negating you use 14:32:08 ais523: "silently lol", silently do something out loud, contradictory; "silently ... inside", to do something silently, and not do it out loud, a tautology 14:32:23 oklofok: oh, silently...inside is a redundancy 14:32:48 yes, but i'm pretty sure there's another term for when you do it in english 14:33:14 but still, was just pointing out it was doubly weirdly put. 14:34:32 * SimonRC worships B.S. 14:34:43 Actually referring to Bjrane Stroustrup, but they're equivalent. 14:36:04 what's wrong with bjarne? 14:36:14 he invented C++ 14:36:14 i agree with a lot of his writingz 14:36:18 and thought it was good 14:36:33 yes, but he hates the parts that suck as much as everyone 14:36:42 at least according to cpl 14:36:52 you mean like all of them? 14:36:52 :D 14:37:01 :) 14:37:55 i don't consider it a bad language, just too low-level for my taste 14:38:57 :: (- "asdasdfasdfasdf" "aaa") 14:38:58 f 14:39:07 :: (* "asdasdfasdfasdf" 6) 14:39:07 asdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdf 14:55:10 * ehird writes alphabet look and say in thue 14:55:12 That was easy. 14:55:30 -!- asiekierk has joined. 14:55:31 hi 14:55:32 i'm back 14:55:33 hi 14:55:36 most of you is back 14:55:41 Seems I will try out Chef :P 14:55:43 the final a got missed somewhere along the line, though 14:55:48 :P 14:55:49 maybe oerjan has it 14:55:51 -!- asiekierk has changed nick to asiekierka. 14:55:55 Maybe that's better 14:55:55 he's good at finding missing letters from nicks 14:56:01 is it? 14:56:04 yes 14:56:12 I had the "a" in my backpack 14:56:22 Just pulled it out and scanned it, so i could send it IRC-wise to my nickname 14:57:16 ouch 14:57:23 anyway 14:57:37 Yeah, I will try out Chef 14:57:41 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asiekierka[Cooki. 14:57:48 -!- asiekierka[Cooki has changed nick to asiekierkCooking. 14:58:02 Everyone that doesn't understand it please leave this chatroom 14:58:02 oh joy. 14:58:10 tempting. 14:58:11 -!- asiekierkCooking has changed nick to asiekierka. 14:58:19 uh-oh, ehird is back 14:59:38 I've been here all this time 14:59:43 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:02:26 Keymaker redesigned his site, I notice. 15:02:43 It's just a directory index now. 15:02:52 [http://yiap.nfshost.com/index.php] 15:07:22 wolframtones is a fun timewaster 15:08:22 wait, Encyclopedia Britannica is becoming a wiki? 15:08:28 is this an April Fool's joke, I wonder? 15:08:30 ... o.O 15:08:38 Must be. 15:08:42 but it isn't April 15:08:45 Link? 15:08:59 http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/biztech/battle-to-outgun-wikipedia-and-google/2009/01/22/1232471469973.html 15:09:04 found via Slashdot 15:09:19 keyword: its online version 15:09:22 Not the printed one, I assume. 15:09:28 yes, although probably they'll backport changes 15:09:34 besides, it's almost impossible to run a printed wiki 15:09:35 "If I were to be the CEO of Google or the founders of Google I would be very [displeased] that the best search engine in the world continues to provide as a first link, Wikipedia," he said."Is this the best they can do? Is this the best that [their] algorithm can do?" 15:09:43 all those crossings-out and tippex build up after a while 15:09:44 Because Wikipedia is bad because I said so 15:09:50 and you can't fit all that many people around the book 15:10:31 Citizendium-style, it seems, they haven't gone /completely/ against type 15:11:40 Hmm. 15:11:50 What would you call (x) from P'' in one uppercase letter? 15:11:53 P for parens? 15:12:38 hmm... I know P'' but not its notation 15:12:41 what does (x) do again? 15:13:52 R ( R ) L ( r' ( L ( L ) ) r' L ) R r 15:13:53 = 15:13:56 > [ > ] < [ − [ < [ < ] ] − < ] > + 15:14:00 So, loop. 15:14:04 ah, ok 15:14:10 why do you need in one capital letter? 15:14:16 Because. :P 15:14:19 given that it's inherently a two-different-places operation? 15:14:30 P seems most logical to me, for parens. 15:14:56 in Underlambda it is (or will be) w for while, but that's a lowercase letter 15:17:01 "will be"? 15:18:48 ehird: it isn't properly specced yet 15:18:51 pretty fluid 15:19:09 I'm more interested in getting Underlambda right rather than having it ready quickly 15:19:43 oh, underlambda 15:21:10 my other big new esolang project, besides Feather 15:22:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:43:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 15:49:47 O for lOOp 15:54:25 run :: P -> State 15:54:27 whee 15:55:26 of course, no parsing, it's for a genetic algorithm 15:55:31 see logs 07.05.17 15:55:50 no *you* see logs 15:57:45 in P'' 15:57:46 r ≡ λR, r′ ≡ rn 15:57:48 wtf does r' mean 15:57:49 ? 15:57:50 ais523? 15:57:53 err 15:57:56 that's r^n 15:57:59 ie superscript 15:58:30 it's the opposite of r 15:58:30 r increments, r' decrements 15:58:41 and you decrement by incrementing one less times than the max 15:58:44 via overflow 15:59:07 there is no max. 15:59:12 yes there is 15:59:19 P'' has a max value of n-1 15:59:23 what is n 15:59:23 n is normally set to 2, but can be set higher 15:59:29 and it's a different lang for each value of n 15:59:37 I was unaware 15:59:42 I was going by infinite ints 15:59:59 hm. 16:00:02 ehird: as they can only be incremented, not decremented, bignum P'' would be kind-of pointless... 16:00:09 I'll interpret P''_256 16:00:18 hmm 16:00:18 actually, that's cheating 16:00:23 would it be entirely pointless? 16:00:25 are you doing P'' because it's more mathematical-looking than BF? 16:00:33 oklofok: ah, that's actually an interesting question 16:00:43 I'm not at all sure now 16:00:44 16:00 < ais523> are you doing P'' because it's more mathematical-looking than BF? 16:00:44 omg 16:00:47 i'm pretty sure yes, but i don't instantly see why it couldn't let you do at least something 16:00:47 simpler to implement 16:00:50 oh wait 16:00:52 wrong channel 16:00:57 run' :: State -> P -> State 16:00:58 run' (t,h) R = (t, h+1) 16:00:58 run' (t,h) L = (t',h') 16:00:58 where t' = gTake h t ++ [(t !!! h) + 1] ++ gDrop h t 16:00:58 h' = if h == 0 then 0 else h - 1 16:01:01 run' s (C p q) = run' (run' s p) q 16:01:02 run' (t,h) (P q) 16:01:05 | (t !!! h) == 0 = (t,h) 16:01:07 | otherwise = run' (run' (t,h) q) (P q) 16:01:08 it would effectively be BF with a set-to-1 command rather than + and - 16:01:10 9-line P'' implementation 16:01:12 (for bignums...) 16:01:26 and what does !!! do/ 16:01:35 (!!!) = genericIndex 16:01:45 Integral a=>[b]->a->b 16:01:49 ah, nth element of a list 16:01:49 i'm sure you can figure it out. 16:01:55 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:01:57 strange operator 16:01:57 yes it's normally !! 16:01:59 but that only takes Ints 16:02:01 instead of Integers 16:02:05 it's (!!) 16:02:05 oh, ok 16:02:05 so finite tape 16:02:08 oklofok: no 16:02:09 it's (!!!). 16:02:13 16:02 < ehird> yes it's normally !! 16:02:15 16:02 < ehird> but that only takes Ints 16:02:15 16:02 < ehird> instead of Integers 16:02:15 ehird: it's essentially !! 16:02:17 16:02 < ehird> so finite tape 16:02:20 why can't they just take anything of numeric type? 16:02:27 ais523: because haskell has warts, too 16:02:35 impossible, it should be fixed 16:02:44 *integral type 16:02:46 done, said, easier than 16:02:50 indexing with floats is obviously silly 16:02:56 when you're dealing with Haskell lists 16:03:01 (less silly in other langs, it actually works in JS) 16:03:18 well does js have lists 16:03:26 oklofok: it has arrays 16:03:29 but they're basically just hash tables 16:03:34 yes, it have hashmaps 16:03:35 you can put any junk you like in the subscript and it works 16:03:36 *has 16:03:52 quite clever, really 16:03:55 yeah, that was more of a statement. 16:03:57 and no it's not 16:04:00 there's no actual reason but efficiency to differ arrays and hashmaps 16:04:00 if by clever you mean slow and hacky. 16:04:03 oklotalk generalizes it much better 16:04:06 ais523: yes there is 16:04:09 arrays don't have gaps. 16:04:30 ehird: that's just an arbitrary restriction 16:04:30 also, it fucks up iteration. 16:04:38 and iteration still works just as well 16:04:44 ais523: allowing arrays not to be an elephant is also an arbitrary restriction 16:04:49 but it's part of the definition of arrays. 16:04:51 ais523: yes, that's arbitrary, but there are also things that are not arbitrary 16:05:01 like all merging, inserting and deleting 16:05:16 the behavior simply has to be different 16:05:18 we should generalise those operations to hashmaps too 16:05:24 a delete-adjust action, for instance 16:05:29 in fact hashmaps and functions are closer together than lists and hashmaps 16:05:54 lists are different from arrays, though 16:06:03 in that lists aren't really designed to be indexed 16:06:12 and can be accessed from the start much more easily than from the end 16:06:37 ais523: that's *much* more arbitrary than the distinction ehird mentioned. 16:06:57 not really 16:07:05 for instance, when you delete from an array, which way do the elements shift? 16:07:07 for a list it's obvious 16:07:18 the end 16:07:19 but it's not obvious that they should go left not right in an array, because they're symmetrical 16:07:21 16:07 < ehird> the end 16:07:22 16:07 < ais523> but it's not obvious th 16:07:23 oops. 16:07:24 ais523: 16:07:27 Python calls its arrays lists. 16:07:29 You are talking about LINKED lists 16:07:34 Please be aware of the difference 16:07:35 yes, and Lisp-like lists 16:07:42 ... which are linked lists. 16:07:48 yes 16:07:52 they're more like binary trees than arrays 16:07:52 also called lists 16:07:57 "list" != "linked list" 16:08:04 err well 16:08:06 ehird is correct 16:08:12 ehird: well, if you insist on defining a list as an array of course they're the same 16:08:17 IMO, Python naming here is just confusing 16:08:18 list should be used for arrays without the arrayish properties 16:08:24 a list is a list. 16:09:03 oklofok: I think I agree 16:09:10 i mean 16:09:16 arrays have a strongly typed feel to them 16:09:31 also, I think lists and ring buffers are pretty similar 16:09:35 whereas arrays and ring buffers aren't 16:10:01 hmm? 16:10:34 you can imagine a list which somehow contains itself, at the end 16:10:44 this is more of a philosophy question of course, the terms aren't that standard 16:10:47 yes 16:11:07 I think the fundamental difference is that arrays are inherently linked to (positive/nonnegative) integers 16:11:09 well, they are standard in that many ppl have an opinion on what they obviously mean 16:11:10 as a method of indexing 16:11:16 so are lists 16:11:18 but those opinions don't always agree 16:11:21 and deleting elements from an array isn't really an intuitive operation at all 16:11:26 it doesn't fit arrays, really 16:11:26 yeah 16:11:27 not linked lists though 16:11:29 because it involves renumbering 16:11:38 deleting from a list, though, does make sense 16:12:10 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 16:13:09 oh, it's that late. 16:13:21 i need to start doing an unspecified thing ~ 16:13:24 > 16:13:30 lol 16:14:56 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:16:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:34:54 http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N64/squidvswhale.html 16:35:38 does it answer 3 foxes vs. polar bear? 16:35:42 I'll be wondering about that one for years, now 16:35:48 and it would be inhumane to find out by experiment 16:35:52 no 16:35:55 also, it's unlikely to happen in the wild... 16:36:05 it's nothing to do with squids v whales 16:36:43 ok, then why the URL? 16:37:04 unless a whale is a badly-configured web browser with no caching, and a squid is a sort of proxy, maybe? 16:37:19 Beats me. 16:37:27 I think squid vs whale is the name of the column. 16:37:41 I like my explanation bette 16:37:43 *better 16:52:11 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:53:20 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 17:04:03 "In fact, although I have not tested Safari 3.1, I am relatively certain it will not render properly in any released browser. " 17:04:07 -- http://annevankesteren.nl/2009/01/moving-the-goalposts 17:09:22 ehird: someone tried to design a page that wouldn't render? 17:09:34 apart from that SHORTTAGS one we had in here a while back? 17:09:39 ais523: clicking the link helps 17:09:50 yes, but I prefer to do my internetting over IRC and email 17:10:04 then you don't get context, that's your loss 17:10:16 or, I could pipe lynx -dump into here 17:10:45 hi 17:14:36 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:39:10 -!- Mony has joined. 17:42:21 -!- M0ny has joined. 18:00:40 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:00:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:03:44 -!- comex has changed nick to retarded_monkey. 18:19:40 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:20:06 Not notable enough to have a page. There are thousands of thousands books. A book must be very very notable to have a page(e.g. Bible, Quran, Dante's divine comedy etc etc). 18:20:12 I wonder what this guy thinks of the Pokemon articles. 18:26:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 18:26:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:55:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 18:55:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:07:25 -!- olsner has joined. 19:07:47 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:12:36 -!- asiekierka has quit. 19:17:45 Why would he mind those? There are less Pokemons than books. 19:18:54 For now. 19:22:52 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:25:51 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 19:33:49 ping 19:33:52 anyone home? 19:51:45 o 19:52:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:53:01 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:53:17 -!- Corun has joined. 20:07:36 -!- M0ny has quit ("Quit"). 20:19:18 -!- jix has joined. 20:33:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:43:59 he breathes, and he's a moron 20:44:06 EHIRD MUST DIE 20:44:19 erm wait he's not here 20:45:57 enjoy the silence while it lasts 20:46:03 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 20:46:46 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 20:46:59 the silence of the lambdas 20:47:13 -!- retarded_monkey has changed nick to comex. 20:47:35 * oerjan wasn't going to say that but his finger decided to miss the s 20:50:02 maybe oerjan has it 20:50:16 unlikely, my dialect drops final vowels all over the place 20:50:59 some of which may or may not be a's 20:51:35 s/all over the place/in infinitives/, really 20:53:13 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 20:59:30 wait ais523 is not here either? 21:01:51 no one's here, maybe you should leave too. 21:02:02 :´( 21:02:33 i agree it's sad, but hey, you can't tell a goat to be sacrificed. 21:03:05 don't say that, it's remarkable what science can do 21:03:12 for science! 21:05:06 oh well, at least they weren 21:05:10 't klined 21:05:20 for klines! 21:05:32 forklines! 21:05:52 xD 21:06:14 YOU TOOK THE WHITESPACE OUT LOL 21:06:32 in deed 21:17:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:20:46 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:24:48 -!- ehird has joined. 21:24:55 My fucking ISP is unable to maintain DNS servers 21:25:07 *inable 21:25:16 err maybe unable 21:26:03 -!- FireFly has joined. 21:27:42 ehird, maybe time to enable a local dns server then? 21:27:50 I'm using opendns. 21:27:57 Even though it sucks too. 21:28:09 ehird, I use a local recursive resolver. 21:28:25 Aren't you special. 21:28:27 that bypasses isp, no idea why that works 21:28:46 I mean, why use opendns, when setting it up to query directly works just as well 21:29:07 (tcpdump indicates it query root servers directly sometimes) 21:29:28 Time to set up custom DNS server, maintain it [even though i really fucking don't want to bother with that], and do all this without access to DNS: days, weeks, who knows. 21:29:37 Time to stick in the OpenDNS ip: 20 seconds. 21:29:43 *IPs 21:31:40 ehird, emerge bind; emacs /etc/namedb/named.conf; /etc/init.d/named start 21:31:49 emacs /etc/resolve.conf 21:31:51 done 21:31:58 err 21:32:00 emacs /etc/resolv.conf 21:32:01 even 21:32:16 "emerge bind" 21:32:17 6 hours 21:32:24 "emacs /etc/namedb/named.conf" 21:32:27 Is interrupted by 21:32:35 "kill yourself for wasting so much fucking time" 21:32:38 and the process stops there. 21:35:13 "emerge bind" <-- genlop (a tool analyzing emerge.log) says average merge time was 7 minutes and 23 seconds for bind on my system 21:35:35 ehird, also why in such a hurry? 21:37:02 because I'd rather put in the OpenDNS IPs in 20 seconds than wait hours compiling and configuring BIND for ABSOLUTELY NO GAIN WHATSOEVER other than a weird form of nerd mental masturbation? 21:37:17 also, good fucking luck installing + configuring bind without any DNS 21:37:31 won't start? oh snap good luck finding out why! 21:38:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:39:09 ehird, well, you could just use host to query root servers directly 21:39:20 or you could use some existing dns server you have installed 21:39:28 if you have any 21:39:31 Yes, everyone has a DNS server installed. 21:39:45 AnMaster: now WHY would I do this over putting in the opendns IPs until my ISP gets its act together? 21:39:49 ehird, well since OS X is based on *BSD I would assume so. bind is part of FreeBSD base 21:39:56 Wow, I'd be a few hours without annoying search pages on invalid resolves 21:40:08 Except I'd have wasted many more hours getting it working. What fun. 21:40:25 ehird, it takes less than 30 minutes for me to set it up 21:40:50 also there is dns over irc while you set it up: asking friends (like me) to resolve the domain for you 21:40:52 And it takes me less than 30 seconds to put the OpenDNS IPs in. 21:40:52 ;P 21:41:10 "friends (like me)" hahahah. And I couldn't connect to freenode, duh. 21:41:19 ehird, well if you don't want it, fine, however it is useful even during normal operation 21:41:24 Uh huh. 21:41:34 Yes, I daily wish I ran my own DNS server. 21:41:34 faster dns since it caches more locally 21:41:36 Not 21:41:39 afk 21:42:06 12:44:06 EHIRD MUST DIE 21:42:06 12:44:19 erm wait he's not here 21:42:06 12:45:57 enjoy the silence while it lasts 21:42:07 Harsh 21:43:42 :D 21:43:45 (back) 21:44:13 just 21:44:15 because 21:44:15 I 21:44:15 use 21:44:15 a 21:44:18 new 21:44:21 line 21:44:23 as 21:44:26 punctuation 21:44:28 doesn't 21:44:31 mean 21:44:34 I 21:44:35 should 21:44:38 be 21:44:41 discriminated 21:44:43 against. 21:45:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:53:42 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 22:00:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:11:36 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:15:11 ehird: yeseitedoesebuteitecouldebeeworse 22:16:41 bee 22:17:00 wildebeest 22:17:09 Wild E Bee St. 22:17:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye"). 22:17:55 http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/d/de/Dancing_cats.gif 22:17:59 DERP DERP 22:18:15 I clicked and saw a cat but it was stationary. 22:18:19 Can I have my money back? 22:18:36 It is not, ehird 22:18:39 It moves! 22:18:45 many people would like cats on their stationary 22:19:15 Slereah2: my browser hates you :( 22:19:29 * oerjan wonders if he is thinking of the right word 22:20:37 oh it's spelled stationery 22:25:55 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 22:50:21 In.Lojban,.you.can.use.dots.to.separate.words. 22:50:36 But--that--indicates--that--you--pronounce--it--like--this. 22:51:14 ",." is interesting 22:51:27 although i guess that's just "." 22:51:35 i'm no phonetician 22:52:20 Well, it can affect the prosody of the preceding word. 22:52:52 "My.uncle,.Jack" and "My.uncle.Jack" are different. 22:55:54 -!- Max_D has joined. 22:56:05 * Max_D blah 23:03:52 kerlo: err maybe in english. not in lojban 23:03:56 not that i know what prosody is. 23:04:07 i'm assuming it's something that makes what i said true. 23:04:18 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:04:43 * kerlo nods 23:05:11 Prosody is the part of speech that you can't express with a list of words. 23:05:51 right. 23:06:18 o 23:06:18 o 23:06:19 o 23:06:19 o 23:06:19 o 23:06:19 o 23:06:21 o 23:06:23 o 23:06:25 -> 23:06:59 That is a very good example of a sentence consisting virtually entirely of prosody. 23:08:16 yeah right 23:08:22 * Max_D is confused 23:08:37 Had that that had that had had that that had had that had that that had, I would have had that. 23:09:05 Now I will tell you the grammar of the above sentence for make benefit. 23:09:08 * oerjan is confused 23:09:20 why would you ruin a good puzzle for us 23:09:35 because he's EVIL, duh 23:09:55 had that "that" had that "had had" that that "had had" had that that had, i would have had that 23:09:59 is a parsing at least 23:10:12 hmm 23:10:21 i'm not sure that actually helped you see what parsing i meant ;) 23:11:20 had that bad hat that that that had had that bat had that hat hat 23:11:41 ::= that ; ::= that that ; ::= had ; ::= had had ; ::= had , I would have had that. 23:11:51 That's the grammar of the above sentence. 23:11:58 Unfortunately, it's still an ambiguous grammar. 23:12:10 mmkay. 23:12:13 i don't get it 23:12:26 Also, I'm wrong in that sentences of the form "I like that had had ice cream." aren't actually valid. 23:12:27 how bout you put some parens in 23:12:41 * Max_D is bored... yay! 23:12:49 Okay, I'll put parentheses in according to my incorrect grammar. 23:12:54 what what that that what that that what that that what that what would that what? 23:12:55 kerlo: yes please 23:13:32 (had (that that (had (that (had had (that that (had had (that (had (that that had)))))))))), I would have had that. 23:14:10 I don't really feel like coming up with a better grammar. 23:14:14 +++++++++6+++ 23:14:16 +++51 23:14:17 .023 23:14:17 . 23:14:30 i don't understand how a sentence can have its own grammar 23:14:41 oooooooooooooo 23:14:42 oooooooooooooooooo 23:14:49 It can't; that's a really tiny segment of English grammar that's sufficient for this sentence. 23:14:55 ehird: looks familiar 23:15:25 that's valid... what's the language again 23:15:29 is that intentional? 23:15:31 that that that that that that that that that that that refers to refers to refers to refers to nothing 23:22:14 -!- Max_D has quit. 23:24:11 oklofok: should be intentional; isn't 23:25:23 should should be intentional isn't isn't intentional 23:27:16 ehird: wait actually, nm, there's no "+" instruction in the lang i'm thinking of. but, the structure looks the same 23:40:20 http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/pacificnw/2008177548_pacificpendgame14.html 23:43:19 he totally lost the game lol get it 23:44:12 xD 23:44:13 sleep 23:44:15 -> 2009-01-23: 00:09:15 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:11:11 -!- jix has joined. 00:13:44 -!- Corun has joined. 00:19:48 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has joined. 13:32:48 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 13:39:45 -!- ehird has joined. 13:40:43 hai 13:41:38 There was a user matching bsmnt_bot!n=bsmnt@eso-std.org repeatedly 13:41:39 reconnecting so the host eso-std.org was banned. This was only in place 13:41:39 for a short time and you should be able to connect now. 13:41:49 bsmntbombgirl: fix bsmnt_bot so people can't make it disconnect 13:41:51 k, thx, bai 13:46:37 -!- Azstal has quit ("."). 13:47:21 two scripts: one keeping the connection up, and binding input/output to stdin/stdout. The other handling the interaction trough stdin/stdout 13:47:46 that way you can quit the latter script, and let the first script reload it 13:51:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:52:17 possible with subprocess.Popen 13:52:43 MizardX: yes, but, that's a pretty big restructuring 13:52:45 I guess I could do it 13:53:16 * ehird restarts bouncer. 13:53:41 -!- ehird has quit ("Lost terminal"). 13:53:44 -!- ehird_ has joined. 13:54:06 Hi. 13:54:28 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 14:01:25 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:06:49 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 14:24:00 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:49:08 http://userscripts.org/scripts/review/38736 15:15:50 http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/01/23/google-puts-the-squeeze-on-free-apps/ <-- Meh, Google are cutting down the free Google Apps. 15:15:59 'sok, I don't mind paying a bit a year to avoid running a mail server. 15:17:23 -!- oklopoll has joined. 15:17:58 life is so awesome 15:18:00 seriously 15:18:02 -!- oklopoll has changed nick to oklopol. 15:18:09 cool 15:18:22 i mean 15:18:29 i can do what the fuck i want 15:18:35 i'm free 15:18:35 subject to some laws. 15:18:47 well, ok, that's a MAY NOT, not a CAN NOT. 15:18:55 but you can't break the laws of physics. i mean, probably. 15:19:08 hmm 15:19:13 yeah, that's true 15:19:29 but, then, if you could break the laws of physics everyone would fuck up everything 15:19:34 and you wouldn't be able to do what you want any more 15:19:45 yes 15:19:48 that's true too 15:20:03 but, the point is i'm free enough 15:20:08 and that's not even the best part 15:20:16 the best part is there's so much that's awesome i can do 15:20:43 are you 20 yet? you being 20 would be weird 15:20:48 almost. 15:20:56 i mean, i don't think you can be 20. physically impossibl 15:20:57 e 15:20:59 i'm 20 in a month. 15:21:00 I think it'll go like 15:21:03 19.9 -> 19.0 15:21:07 forever 15:21:13 sounds plausible. 15:21:31 actually more than a month, more like two months 15:22:43 okokokokokoko 15:22:46 okokokokokokokokokokokoko 15:22:56 you're correct in that i'm definitely not 20. 15:22:59 i mean 15:23:04 i'm more like 15 15:23:45 oklopol will you get all boring when you get older :( 15:24:05 haha, probably ;) 15:24:11 or go completely insane 15:24:21 maybe both. 15:24:28 oklopol: wait, _go_? 15:24:55 well yes, currently i'm only insane in the good way, for the most part. 15:25:59 i mean, i have weird opinions and i have weird ideas. but i'm able to talk to people, and i don't often yell during classes etc. 15:26:27 oklopol being decent at social interaction is still an idea I haven't yet grasped 15:26:28 well, of course i'm not good at either of those, and i'm getting worse 15:26:34 o 15:26:36 o 15:26:41 k 15:26:41 o 15:26:43 ooko 15:26:47 monkey oko :-| 15:26:49 ooooooooooooofololololo 15:26:59 ooooooooooooofolololololo 15:27:06 ookookookookookookook!ook?ook. 15:27:12 dude omg that turned out so perfectly in my client 15:27:13 15:27 ooooooooooooofololololo 15:27:13 15:27 ooooooooooooofolololololo 15:27:17 they freaking line up 15:27:36 there have been weirder instances of oko. 15:27:58 how's this sound, 6 hours of silence, then two guys simultaneously produce an oko of the same lenght? 15:28:00 *length 15:28:21 i mean. without planning it. 15:28:23 it sounds oko 15:32:37 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:33:30 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 15:59:06 okolokopokolol 16:20:33 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:22:48 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 16:58:20 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 17:03:52 -!- Judofyr__ has joined. 17:04:53 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:12:09 -!- Judofyr__ has changed nick to Judofyr_. 17:13:43 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:14:19 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:14:29 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 17:18:02 -!- Hiato has joined. 17:28:49 -!- Zetro_ has joined. 17:41:24 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 17:46:01 -!- metazilla has left (?). 18:09:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:11:23 -!- Zetro_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:56:39 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:02:27 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:40:04 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:53:12 -!- Hiato1 has joined. 19:56:15 MizardX: yes, but, that's a pretty big restructuring 19:56:39 um, isn't that just a slightly more primitive version of my suggestion to put bsmnt_bot on the bouncer? 19:57:33 well, that would work 19:59:55 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:01:31 i mean, i have weird opinions and i have weird ideas. but i'm able to talk to people, and i don't often yell during classes etc. 20:01:45 you have many people in your classes that do? :D 20:03:09 -!- Mony has joined. 20:03:58 plop 20:04:06 http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/d/de/Dancing_cats.gif 20:04:08 Doo doo doo 20:04:12 DANCE 20:04:55 lol 20:06:26 ehird: impossible 20:06:49 um, not 20:07:34 yes 20:07:39 why 20:08:04 -!- oerjan_ has joined. 20:08:12 -!- oerjan_ has quit (Client Quit). 20:08:25 becausey ou can execute arbitrary code... 20:08:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:08:37 that's why you embed it in another process that handles the irc, duh :P 20:08:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:10:48 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:13:16 oerjan: no, i'm the worst in that area. 20:22:23 -!- Hiato1 has quit ("Leaving."). 20:28:12 @dancing_cats: wtf 20:28:22 seriously, who the fuck makes plays like that 20:29:30 i would watch it 20:29:45 so, hopefully someone, looks fun. 20:30:00 you're crazy 20:30:08 you're a horrible person 20:30:17 xD 20:30:27 psygnisfive : The dancing cats are awesome 20:30:28 * psygnisfive stabs oklopol 20:30:33 I could watch it for hours 20:30:42 yes yes but you're a crazy 4channer 20:30:50 omae mo na :( 20:30:58 and dancing_cats.gif is not the same as that play 20:31:11 that PLAY was undoubtedly created by some crazy cat lady 20:32:53 what are you talking about 20:33:21 about the play 20:33:46 clearly slereah thinks that dancing_cats.gif is just some little animation someone made of dancing cats 20:34:09 and clearly you think it's not 20:34:11 what he fails to realize is that dancing_cats.gif is an animation someone made from video of an actual theatre play 20:34:16 ofcourse its not! 20:34:24 I should watch that play 20:34:29 of course schof schmourse 20:34:45 oklopol, your fake yiddish sucks 20:35:04 *schmof 20:35:09 no. 20:35:37 i know you're unable to understand it when people stretch language when they stretch it in ways that look like they might be due to failure. 20:35:46 i've learned not to give a shit 20:36:02 anyway plz link play or didn't happen 20:36:25 the pattern is, in general, that the second repetition drops the first consonant and replaces it with schm 20:36:43 orly 20:36:54 it doesnt distribute across every word in the reduplicated phrase. 20:37:02 i know, that was the stretch 20:37:31 but you assumed i have somehow managed not to get how it works 20:37:39 which is a bit weird 20:37:45 because it's a fucking substitution 20:38:44 * psygnisfive smacks oklopol 20:38:50 :) 20:38:58 :) 20:39:41 ooooooooo 20:39:41 ooooooooo 20:39:42 ooooooooooo 20:39:55 anal rape? 20:40:16 yes. 20:40:22 * psygnisfive anal raeps lament 20:40:32 raep pear! 20:40:44 pear raep! 20:40:50 D: 20:40:50 tastes good, feels good and also is a palindrome! 20:40:54 Spear rapes 20:41:19 separate metarapes 20:42:02 english is so trivial to make palindromes in 20:42:07 i mean everything means something 20:42:21 its true! 20:42:33 its true eurt sti! 20:42:48 yeah just look at that 20:42:53 even a retard can make a palindrome! 20:43:47 irc is full of such interesting people 20:43:52 why don't i know any lunatics irl 20:43:58 apparently theres at least ONE person on the internet 20:44:01 i mean, the kind of lunatics that are insane 20:44:05 who's username is "eurtsti" 20:44:10 so ironically, lament, ... 20:44:17 :DS 20:44:26 "it's true, eurtsi!" DOES mean something 20:44:26 XD 20:44:40 there's this other finnish guy, who's nick is oklopol 20:44:49 in some hockey forum 20:44:54 he's your evil twin from the parallel universe 20:44:58 he has a goatee 20:45:03 !! 20:45:04 slereah! 20:45:11 your evil twin is clean shaven! 20:45:25 pix 20:47:00 i think someone should make a more realistic guy fawkes mask 20:47:18 Who would buy it? 20:47:29 I only buy the Epic Fail GUy mask myself. 20:47:30 you would! 20:47:33 pfft 20:47:39 you buy V masks is what you buy 20:48:35 theres such irony in V for Vendetta using guy fawkes as its iconic inspiration 20:49:22 Not really. 20:49:26 yes really 20:49:33 He was sort of an icon for 19th century anarchists 20:49:44 really? i find that surprising 20:49:56 Well, mostly as a joke I think 20:50:00 since he was trying to blow up parliament so he could institute a catholic theocracy of sorts 20:50:07 well as a joke, thats different 20:50:12 They had this all "The only man to enter parliament with good intentions" 20:50:25 maybe V is supposed to have chosen it in self deprecating irony 20:50:34 Back then, anarchists were mostly about blowing stuff up 20:50:43 oh well sure we still are 20:50:46 speaking of which 20:50:51 * psygnisfive blows slereah up 20:51:25 s/up// 20:51:31 i was expecting that. 20:52:41 And yet, you did it 20:52:45 What does it say about you? 20:53:13 that I would perform oral sex on you. 20:53:27 Good. 20:55:36 Would you perform oral sex on a woman? 20:57:03 How, they have no penis! 20:57:07 oh hi lament 20:57:45 what is the that ehird is spouting about priviledge seperation 20:57:49 that would be sensible! 20:59:20 hmm? 21:01:18 lament: do you mean would I perform oral sex on a woman, or a person with a vagina? there's a difference, at least in that some women are transwomen and therefore have penises, while some men are transmen and therefore have vaginas. 21:01:23 ehird: user code is already executed in a different thread, so it should be too hard to make it into a different proccess. you have my permission, go 21:01:41 psygnisfive: i don't think the state of vaginoplasy is good these days 21:01:55 i know this. whats your point? 21:03:05 psygnisfive: i'm confused by your terminology. 21:03:14 transwoman = male-to-female transexual 21:03:19 I'm using "woman" in the sense people normally use the word. 21:03:19 transman = female-to-male transexual 21:03:27 psygnisfive: that it's such a deformed vagina you could just as well think of it as just a retarded penis, and therefore be able to perform on it, i presume 21:03:38 lament: but the people i know use it to mean biofemales and transwomen! 21:03:48 i dont know what you mean! 21:04:25 lament: http://i30.tinypic.com/2qdxv7r.jpg is this a woman in your definition? 21:04:29 s/biofemale/ciswoman/ 21:04:33 i don't think i want to open that 21:04:36 biofemale sounds retarded 21:04:36 ciswoman haha :) 21:04:43 lament: its safe, dont worry 21:04:49 psygnisfive: who is that sexy beast? 21:04:57 a guy i know 21:05:07 psygnisfive : That looks like a faggot 21:05:08 he's hot isnt he? :D 21:05:11 give him my number, will you? 21:05:14 slereah2: oh he IS a faggot :D 21:05:21 no! hes mine! you cant have him! >O 21:05:51 I bet he's not yours at all 21:05:57 he's not :( 21:06:02 lament: woman or not? 21:06:33 i haven't opened the image, but judging by the fact that everybody says "he", he must be a man? 21:06:49 well take a look at the image and tell me what you think 21:07:04 why should i? everybody agrees it's a man 21:07:09 i'll follow the consensus 21:07:20 Here's what I think 21:07:26 I think it's a woman 21:07:27 ok then, so you mean women to mean ciswomen and transwomen 21:07:33 Since psygnisfive beats off to trannies 21:07:54 that boy is infact a transboy, yes slereah. but i think he'd punch you if you said he's a woman :P 21:08:21 I bet she punches like a girl 21:08:26 LOL 21:08:52 http://cgi.4chan.org/r/src/1232744300603.jpg 21:08:55 derp derp 21:08:59 (nsfw you idiots) 21:09:16 yuck fake tits 21:09:22 her cock is nice but girls :( 21:09:52 http://community.livejournal.com/wtf_omgz/2552900.html 21:09:57 Is this one male or female? 21:10:12 wtf XD 21:13:35 "cellulite in cellophane", yeah. BTW, female, pretty sure. 22:00:26 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 22:14:54 bsmntbombgirl: I'll patch ircbot.py, then. 22:19:46 ok, ircbot.py patched, now for runloop.py 22:26:59 class StdoutChildSafetyWrapperForYourProtection: 22:27:00 def write(self, a): 22:27:01 if a.startswith('QUIT'): 22:27:03 raise MmmNopeIDontThinkIllLetYouDoThatThankYou 22:27:24 ....lol 22:27:35 taking half-assed code to a whole new level 22:27:41 you need to add strict rate limiting too 22:27:43 also, had a sex change recently bsmntbombgirl? 22:27:44 also, yep 22:27:47 doing so 22:28:53 once per every 2 seconds? makes sense 22:29:35 unfortunately, it's breakable 22:29:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:29:49 sys.stdout._StdoutChildSafetyWrapperForYourProtection__original_stdout 22:29:54 bsmntbombgirl actually doesn't think the state of vaginoplacy is good these days. 22:30:01 *sy 22:32:17 bsmntbombgirl: let's see if that works 22:32:20 ehird: you're doing it wrong 22:32:34 i don't think there's a way to actually get totally secret data in python bsmntbombgirl 22:32:41 well 22:32:44 YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG 22:32:45 I could rate limit in the wrapper script. 22:32:47 that could work 22:32:50 why did i not think of that? 22:32:52 is it because I am stupid? yes 22:33:13 the child communicates with the parent via a socket pair, right? 22:33:17 yep. 22:33:21 you're right 22:34:08 sys.stdout.write = lamba x:parent_socket.write("PLEASE_WRITE_THIS_DATA_TO_IRC %s" % x) 22:34:29 well, yeah, exactly 22:34:30 yes, I know 22:34:33 that's wha ti'm doing 22:34:35 jeez 22:34:36 :-P 22:35:01 i think bsmnt_bot needs to be split up a little more 22:35:11 one big file is getting cumbersome 22:35:23 you're still developerizing it? 22:35:42 no :P 22:36:10 ok i'm going to my shitty local library to see if they have a book 22:37:06 did you know Communication is the most critical and time-consuming activity in software engineering? 22:37:38 here gooooooooooooooooooooooooes, bsmntbombgirl 22:38:19 Traceback (most recent call last): 22:38:19 File "/bot/runloop.py", line 3, in ? 22:38:21 import queue 22:38:23 ImportError: No module named queue 22:38:25 Step 1. Fail 22:38:51 hey you know what i realized to today for the seven hundredth time 22:38:55 lol 22:38:57 brb 22:39:10 that deque is kindof a pun for *deck* 22:39:25 i mean that's just so clever 22:40:05 i mean two perfectly logical derivations that lead to the same term 22:40:11 that's just so clever 22:40:33 rationale is the justification of decisions 22:42:37 okay, mr bot, just waddle in here 22:42:45 come on 22:42:46 don't be shy 22:43:20 Traceback (most recent call last): 22:43:20 File "/bot/ircbot.py", line 381, in ? 22:43:21 bot.listen(first) 22:43:23 File "/bot/ircbot.py", line 107, in listen 22:43:25 line = raw_input() 22:43:27 EOFError: EOF when reading a line 22:43:29 additionally, dear bot 22:43:31 suck my dick, 22:43:39 stoopid wrapper 22:58:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:10:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye"). 23:11:47 -!- Mony has quit ("bye"). 23:22:52 -!- Corun has joined. 23:30:13 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 23:30:15 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:47:02 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:55:46 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:58:36 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2009-01-24: 00:03:57 back 00:04:36 so guys how is backwards land 00:04:47 its wonderful! 00:04:49 oh uh.. i mean 00:04:57 lufrednow sti! 00:05:01 wait did that not reverse properly 00:05:01 :( 00:05:29 test 00:05:32 that work? 00:05:46 no 00:05:49 :< 00:06:02 unless you were trying to write "tset" 00:06:05 but backwards 00:06:11 in which case, it worked 00:06:14 lol 00:06:36 :P 00:07:27 reminds me of that xkcd comic 00:07:42 where the text was mirrored and upside down or something 00:07:51 and it says "wanna annoy the hell out of our readers" 00:07:56 and i'm like what the fuck is the joke 00:08:08 what was the joke? 00:08:11 the joke is 00:08:12 YOU 00:08:14 lamamoa 00:08:15 :o 00:08:29 psygnisfive: well supposedly some people can't read mirrored text :| 00:08:37 "lamamoa" = lame samoa? 00:08:42 ‮hello world 00:08:44 samoan llama? 00:09:37 the hello world program, and a (slightly restricted) cat program, are easily some of the simplest programs in my wip language :O 00:09:39 ‮so gentlemen, how are you today? Are you enjoying the amazing thing known as backwards? 00:09:43 isn't this awsum 00:09:55 sure 00:10:06 -->‮<-- 00:10:13 copy 00:10:16 then type between the arrows 00:10:19 then deplete arrows. 00:10:29 --> so easy a green could do it<-- 00:10:32 hmm that broke 00:10:39 ‮OH WELL 00:10:53 did you use the rtl unicode char? 00:11:07 -!- jix_ has joined. 00:11:17 no, I used black magic 00:11:19 dumbass 00:11:23 :| 00:11:24 :-| 00:11:27 :-Q 00:11:29 black magic?! 00:11:32 yes. 00:11:32 GASP 00:11:35 also, green magic. 00:11:47 green magic is the magic of environmentalists 00:11:51 also, purple magic. 00:12:03 they use all natural biodegradable materials to cast spells 00:23:25 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:35:03 -!- jix_ has quit ("..."). 00:51:17 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out). 01:06:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:07:30 -!- Corun has changed nick to MateyHuber. 01:14:37 so one of my professors is in a russian music video... 01:25:17 -!- MateyHuber has changed nick to Corun. 03:35:15 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 04:47:39 * bsmntbombgirl is reading _Understanding the Linux Kernel_ 06:02:08 -!- Sgeo_ has quit ("Leaving"). 06:12:33 -!- Dewio has joined. 06:25:27 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 07:36:42 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:13:55 -!- Mony has joined. 08:17:34 plop 09:20:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 09:30:23 -!- asiekierka has joined. 09:30:26 Boom! 09:30:54 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) #esoteric comics to be made soon; watch what you say. 09:31:50 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) #esoteric comics to be made soon; watch what you say g) bring back the bots plz. 09:33:25 h) the letter h 09:35:02 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) #esoteric comics to be made soon; watch what you say g) bring back the bots plz h) the letter h. 09:35:25 -!- Slereah2 has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) #esoteric comics to be made soon; watch what you say g) bring back the bots plz h) the letter h j) there is no i. 09:37:07 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) #esoteric comics to be made soon; watch what you say g) bring back the bots plz h) the letter h j) there is no eye. 09:37:28 :D 09:38:00 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) #esoteric comics to be made soon; watch what you say g) bring back the bots plz h) the letter h j) there is no eye z) Let's skip to ASCII char 42, shall we? :D. 09:38:15 can you tell me something about the esoteric comics ? 09:38:45 i can't 09:38:47 until i make one 09:39:00 -!- Slereah2 has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) #esoteric comics to be made soon; watch what you say g) bring back the bots plz h) the letter h j) there is no eye z) Let's skip to ASCII char 42, shall we? :D {) beep boop. 09:39:14 lol, ok :) 09:43:07 http://www.stripcreator.com/comics/asiekierka/453254 09:43:34 This is terrible 09:44:48 -!- Corun has joined. 09:45:00 tiens, un sélérat ! :o 09:45:10 scélérat* 09:46:23 yeah 09:49:02 Slereah2: What did you expect? 09:49:04 A "Screeble"? 09:49:08 They're way worse 09:49:35 Mony: what does that mean 09:51:07 it's a french word, Slereah and scélérat sound like the same words 09:51:29 scélérat = wicked 09:53:03 oh 09:53:12 Okay, so should i make more of these 09:53:14 change the method 09:53:15 or wut 09:53:49 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:54:02 slereah came back 09:54:24 asiekierka, maybe you can make the comic from scratch 09:54:34 Yes, that's me alright 09:58:08 Mony: ... 09:58:10 ...!!! 09:58:30 ok, but then it'll be total crap 09:58:37 and my writing will be undecipherale 09:58:44 undecipherable* 09:59:00 wait, i don't understand that word 09:59:13 ah ok 09:59:46 http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles/img/comic/28.JPG 10:00:02 http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles/img/comic/32.JPG 10:00:08 you can keep on using stripcreator, and when the comic book is ended, you can modify it with paint or what you want 10:00:25 nope, it'll be also crapfestic quality 10:00:29 http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles/img/comic/25.JPG 10:00:40 http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles/img/comic/23.JPG 10:00:45 that's about all i want to show you 10:01:36 the better ones of my comics 10:01:51 also, what's wrong with stripcreator? 10:03:16 stripcreator seems to be good, but i don't like so much the characters' faces 10:03:54 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:04:30 i just like the selection personally 10:06:00 Mony: Ok, but do you prefer my Screebles, then? 10:07:35 I don't know, the Screebles (28 and 32) have something dirty (except the 25 and 23, there're good :)) 10:08:37 Smudges from the pen mostly 10:08:42 25 was a testcard 10:08:55 i must reproduce it, make it a vector image and use it 10:09:09 yep 10:09:27 I doubt I still have the original 10:09:30 But oh well 10:12:28 I ever wanted to make my own comic or cartoon 10:12:48 get a scanner, get a pen and let your imagination fly! 10:12:53 *chorus* FFLLYYYY!!! 10:13:11 something like 8bit NES game, with bigs pixels and chiptune music 10:13:26 Make your own sprites then 10:13:29 and make a sprite comic 10:13:32 yeah 10:15:53 maybe i can make moving the sprite, scroll the background, etc 10:16:04 Use FLASH! 10:16:09 *flash* 10:16:21 it can be pretty cool 10:17:15 yeah, i used to make some flash animations 10:17:44 -!- oklopol has joined. 10:19:50 ok 10:19:54 making the testcard 10:20:00 this time with greater precision 10:20:08 and there will be both b&w and color versions 10:22:13 ok, made the lower left corner 10:23:57 made the upper right corner, too 10:26:50 lower right corner also done 10:28:06 all corners done 10:28:10 and the <1000hz> too 10:32:13 ok 10:32:16 made the first scan 10:32:21 looks pretty well 10:32:39 minus a few fixable errors 10:40:35 nearly done! 10:40:46 -!- Hiato has joined. 10:41:09 Testcard aA1: 90% 10:45:17 Testcard aA1: 100%, scanning 10:47:20 done! 10:52:31 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 10:54:15 woohoo 10:54:16 i did it 10:54:18 uploading in a moment 10:55:03 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 10:55:44 -!- Hiato has joined. 10:56:13 http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/aa1_template_color.PNG 10:56:20 don't use it except if i allow you 10:56:50 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 10:57:09 -!- Hiato has joined. 11:02:04 -!- asiekierka has quit. 11:30:01 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:34:25 -!- Corun has joined. 11:51:07 -!- Mony has quit ("reboot"). 11:56:24 -!- Mony has joined. 12:17:36 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 12:25:58 -!- FireyFly has joined. 12:26:07 -!- FireFly has quit (Nick collision from services.). 12:26:12 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 12:48:12 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:50:27 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:58:22 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 13:11:42 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:12:15 -!- Hiato has joined. 13:15:57 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 13:36:34 -!- kar8nga has joined. 14:14:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:27:20 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:32:37 oh jesus, fucking asiekierka fucked with the topic again 14:32:48 has he figured out that it's irritating yet 14:33:21 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 14:34:53 -!- Hiato has joined. 14:35:22 don't use it except if i allow you 14:35:32 Does this count as a formal licensing, or can I use it blatantly? 14:35:39 I think the latter. 14:37:15 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 14:45:33 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 14:59:01 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:05:18 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:09:28 -!- olsner has joined. 15:32:15 I don't think you have enough coins to buy 50 VP... 15:32:42 sorry, wrong channel 15:33:48 lol 15:45:15 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:45:20 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:07:20 oooo 16:07:44 ko 16:43:07 i think i know how im going to add types to my language :o 16:43:19 ehird! you once said you wished haskell had first class types, or something. what did you mean? 16:43:26 dependent types 16:43:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye"). 16:43:41 type language = code language, turing complete compilation (has its downsides ... like non-terminating compilations ... ) 16:43:47 e.g. you can strongly type printf 16:44:20 can you give me a more detailed example? im not sure what a dependent type would be 16:44:43 also, doesnt C++ or something have require TC compilation due to its type system? x.x 16:44:44 dependent types is just the theoretical term 16:44:48 psygnisfive: here's a concrete example 16:44:50 or TC parsing or whatever 16:45:00 sec 16:45:13 psygnisfive: http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~augustss/cayenne/examples.html Scroll to the vey bottom 16:45:15 heading "Printf" 16:45:21 that's a strongly typed printf 16:45:31 you can probably get the gist of how it fits in with what i've said 16:47:20 ok 16:47:41 basically, it's calling a function in the type system there 16:47:50 which varies printf's type depending on what string you feed it 16:48:04 (yes, it breaks down if you e.g. feed it user input, you have to offer proofs that its' gonna be a certain type then) 16:48:13 ok 16:51:20 does it make sense to you? :P 17:16:25 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:16:27 hi 17:16:35 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) fake. 17:16:43 Stop. 17:16:45 Messing. 17:16:45 With. 17:16:46 The 17:16:48 Topic 17:16:50 In 17:16:52 But it's OFFENSIVE to me 17:16:52 Unfunny 17:16:54 Ways 17:16:56 Goddamn 17:17:02 Oh noes, offensive words 17:17:03 it's OFFENSIVE to me 17:17:10 OFFENSIVEOFFENSIVEOFFENSIVEOFFENSIVE 17:17:29 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:17:32 oh no offensivity 17:17:49 oh my god is there something offensive on irc 17:17:58 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) stfu ehird. 17:17:58 i know 17:17:59 it's awful 17:18:08 asiekierka telling me to stfu? 17:18:10 L O L 17:18:21 L O L 17:18:25 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:18:25 gay sex... oh dear god i can't take it anymore 17:18:27 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 17:18:31 lol 17:18:59 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) stands for "freak". 17:19:08 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:19:11 -!- Slereah has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) stands for "freak" g) THE GAME. 17:19:12 I can do this all day. 17:19:13 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:19:22 -!- Slereah has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally. g) THE GAME. 17:19:27 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:19:35 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) asiekierka is an idiot that sucks so much he doesn't even deserve being in the freaking topic g) THE GAME i) there is no h. 17:19:42 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:19:54 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) asiekierka is an idiot that sucks so much he doesn't even deserve being in the freaking topic g) THE GAME i) there is no h. 17:20:05 one more and i change that to ehird 17:20:07 asiekierka: You know, most who hate themselves that much just cut themselves. 17:20:19 That would be a lot less annoying for me, to boot. 17:20:21 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:20:33 :( 17:20:42 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) ehird is a super-lame super-bad idiot that sucks so much he doesn't even deserve being in the freaking topic g) THE GAME i) there is no h. 17:20:59 I think I'll make bsmnt_bot set the topic for me. 17:21:00 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:21:03 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) ehird is a super-lame super-bad idiot that sucks so much he doesn't even deserve editing this freaking topic g) THE GAME i) there is no h. 17:21:10 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:21:27 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) ehird is a super-lame super-bad idiot that sucks so much he doesn't even deserve editing this freaking topic g) nor does bsmnt_bot h) THE GAME j) there is no i. 17:21:38 :) 17:21:38 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:21:49 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) no messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) ehird is a super-lame super-bad idiot that sucks so much he doesn't even deserve editing this freaking topic g) nor does bsmnt_bot h) THE GAME j) there is no i. 17:21:56 Remember when asiekierka did anything interesting esolang-related? No, me neither. 17:21:57 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:22:03 yes i did 17:22:08 -!- asiekierka has set topic. 17:22:09 Uh huh. 17:22:12 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:22:18 -!- asiekierka has set topic: ehird sux. 17:22:22 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:22:37 -!- asiekierka has set topic: all your topic are belong to asiekierka. 17:22:40 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:22:58 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) g. occasionally.. 17:23:09 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:23:15 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) x. occasionally.. 17:23:21 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:23:29 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gxscc for the wi9n. 17:23:40 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:23:49 -!- asiekierka has set topic: 3.14. 17:24:07 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:24:14 Hey, remember when asiekierka spammed? 17:24:16 Yep, me too. 17:24:30 -!- asiekierka has set topic: What about we leave the topic alone now and be friends? ...please?. 17:24:42 Yep, me too. 17:24:44 Hrm. 17:24:46 Wrong up-scroll. 17:24:48 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:24:50 Yes. 17:24:53 We can leave the topic alone now. 17:24:53 -!- asiekierka has set topic: I said something!. 17:25:05 Oh, you're breaking your own truce. 17:25:08 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:25:23 -!- asiekierka has set topic: What about we leave the topic alone AT THIS POINT WITHOUT EVER EDITING IT and be friends? ...please?. 17:25:37 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:25:38 Nah. 17:25:40 -!- Slereah has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 17:26:20 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:29:57 -!- asiekierka has set topic: What about we leave the topic alone AT THIS POINT WITHOUT EVER EDITING IT and be friends? ...please? Please? Anyone who edits this topic is an idiot.. 17:30:03 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:34:12 -!- asiekierka has set topic: please stop. now.. 17:34:22 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:34:28 How about you? You changed it initially. 17:34:43 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) *** ***. occasionally.. 17:34:48 that's it 17:34:50 stop here 17:34:52 How about you? You changed it initially. 17:34:53 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:34:58 because it offended me 17:35:06 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) ehi rd!. occasionally.. 17:35:06 This offends me. 17:35:09 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:35:19 -!- asiekierka has set topic: CoinTalesQ. 17:35:28 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:35:43 -!- Mony has set topic: STOP PLAYING WITH THE TOPIC !! è_é. 17:35:47 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:35:51 -!- asiekierka has set topic: ,[.,] input:"ehird sucks". 17:35:55 Mony: asiekierka is messing with it, i am setting it back. 17:35:56 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:36:00 he'll get tired eventually. 17:36:07 Mony: ehird's setting back OFFENDS ME 17:36:09 the f) offends me 17:36:17 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) you want my father to see that?. 17:36:24 Tch. If only you weren't so annoying all the time I might have some sympathy. 17:36:40 you're just like stonecypher 17:36:43 another idiot 17:36:50 ironic. 17:36:51 maybe if you had a life 17:36:53 you would understand 17:36:55 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:36:56 -!- asiekierka has left (?). 17:37:03 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:37:11 Bye. Oh wait, you're bacj 17:37:14 *back 17:37:22 bweep 17:37:24 error 17:37:25 offen 17:37:27 ding 17:37:28 data 17:37:29 found 17:37:31 -!- asiekierka has left (?). 17:37:36 Hooray. 17:37:51 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:37:54 Oh no. 17:37:59 Oh yes 17:38:08 Your "leaving FOREVER"s are remarkably short. 17:38:24 i didn't say i leave forever 17:38:29 cite where am i leaving forever 17:38:43 Hopefulness. 17:44:02 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 17:55:20 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:24:43 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:24:51 -!- puzzlet has joined. 18:34:23 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game;. 18:34:24 -!- asiekierka has left (?). 18:37:11 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 18:40:05 omg 18:40:07 "I used to be a KDE user. I thought KDE 4.0 was such a disaster I switched to GNOME" 18:40:09 -linus 18:40:14 world 18:40:16 crashing 18:40:19 around 18:40:20 me 18:47:04 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 18:58:39 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:58:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:04:16 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:04:24 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:05:11 -!- Corun has joined. 19:22:01 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:27:17 ehird: i remember more of asiekierka's esolang related stuff than yours, but, umm, maybe it's just my memory :P 19:27:34 i said interesting 19:28:38 oh, you did? 19:28:41 * oklopol rereads 19:28:53 ah! 19:29:34 then scratch my comment 19:32:31 lifthrasiir: do you like pudding? 19:36:43 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:36:50 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:40:56 "What's ironic got to do with Alanis Morisette?!: 19:40:59 -reddit 19:41:10 s/:$/"/ 19:43:23 It's sort of like rain on your wedding day. 19:44:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:51:32 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 19:54:09 ~> 19:54:10 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 19:57:45 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 19:57:45 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:59:58 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:00:05 -!- puzzlet has joined. 20:06:53 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 20:08:47 -!- Corun has joined. 20:10:12 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 20:54:44 -!- ktne has joined. 20:54:49 hello 20:54:56 can i ask some language design questions here? 20:55:13 i'm designing my own language and i have some issues to solve 21:31:02 ktne: Well, if the language is esoteric... :-> 21:31:09 :) 21:31:19 well my main issue is performance 21:31:29 i would like a prototype based language 21:31:36 but with C-like performance 21:31:43 and i was wondering how that could be done 21:32:24 ktne: Well, usually esoteric languages don't care about performance... 21:32:26 i was wondering if a Seal method on objects, this would block all further structure changes, if that would be fine 21:32:46 that way the structure could be guaranteed and optimizations done 21:32:48 hmm 21:34:35 well my language is not that esoteric 21:34:45 other than i plan each statement to be in a custom micro-language 21:35:02 one would be a raw lisp form-like 21:35:09 other formats could be made available 21:36:44 { statement;statement;statement} 21:37:04 each statement could be in a different micro language, such as SQL-like, LISP-like, etc 21:37:36 there would be a number of such microlanguages, optimized for common usages 21:37:50 like reges text processing and such 21:37:54 *regex 21:41:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye"). 21:41:57 ktne: Regexes with nondeterminate backreference operator (match anything that subexpression could match)? That can be defined to work in case where those backrefs refer to subexpression those are in... :-> 21:43:25 ktne: With that sort of extension, stuff like E-mail address syntax becomes expressable. 21:45:25 ktne: Example: '(|\(<1>\)|<1><1>)'. There is no equivalent regular expression with only standard operators (Kleene closure, alternatives and concatenation)... 21:45:58 well i was thinking about customizable regex character classes 21:46:24 for example you could have class 'c' that would match against any object that implements let's say interface Car 21:46:36 then you could match all Car objects in a collection 21:47:47 therefore text matching would be just a subset of all possible uses, the cases where an object matches if it's a Char with a specific value 21:48:05 i'm not sure if i put it in a clear way :) 21:48:09 hi. 21:48:11 ktne: Matching on sequence of values? 21:48:18 yes 21:48:32 matching against any stream of objects 21:48:42 and text would be a subcase 21:49:05 ktne: so what brings ya here 21:49:07 for example matching against an XML parse tree 21:49:22 hi ehird 21:49:39 ktne: Don't you need something more powerful than regexps there? 21:50:08 Ilari: well, it depends on how you define your custom classes 21:50:42 also the tree would have to be flattened in a stream first obviously, maybe using a custom tree walking algorithm 21:50:43 ktne: Well, with that sort of backreference operator as I shown, it should be powerful enough... 21:51:22 well you could implement any sort of operator i guess 21:51:42 since the whole regex engine could be programmed 21:52:04 The challenge is to choose operators that are powerful but don't seriously blow up the execution time in common cases... 21:52:07 soooooooooooooooooooooooooo 21:52:09 what brought you here 21:52:11 :) 21:52:13 ehird: but my questions are related mainly to performance :) 21:52:27 okay. Well that's sort of esoteric 21:52:32 how to achieve C-like performance in a language without classes 21:52:45 prototype OOP 21:52:53 * ehird 's pet in-head project for a while has been to make a scheme implementation that's competitive with C 21:53:04 hmm 21:53:08 but is that possible? 21:53:10 which you could probably build a prototype OO system on top of without too much overhead 21:53:12 ktne: "maybe" 21:53:17 at least i'm willing to accept language limitation 21:53:19 limitations 21:53:28 i'm not sure if scheme has the right semantics to allow that 21:53:38 SBCL--a common lisp compiler--is competitive with C, iirc, but of course CL is far less lenient than Scheme 21:53:44 you can't redefine + in CL... :-) 21:53:55 i think it boils down to having really efficient function calls 21:53:56 ehird: no overhead means for me c++-like performance 21:54:14 why so interested in performance, anyhoo? 21:54:16 yes but how do you dispatch them if the object structure is dynamic 21:54:22 wanna write an OS? :p 21:54:38 no, i'm more interested in an alternative to matlab and mathematica 21:54:41 also, well, with Scheme you have to dynamically look up everything 21:54:46 because they are so incredibly slow... :( 21:54:52 ktne: And if you do SQL, allow possibility for parametrized queries (and make them relatively _easy_), since nonparametrized ones can easily turn into security nightmares... 21:54:54 so having an object would be no overhead 21:54:59 ew, don't do SQL :( 21:55:14 ehird: i said that each statement could be in a microlanguage 21:55:18 ah 21:55:32 I don't think that would be very helpful 21:55:37 ehird: with several microlanguages for common usages, like text procesing, collection operations (like sql), etc 21:55:47 and a raw lisp-form one 21:55:49 "I want to embed an entirely different language without any markets into this program" is no common thought of mine 21:55:58 s/markets/markers/ 21:56:12 well i was thinking about some guesswork in the parser 21:56:20 and some marker to make things sure when ambigous 21:56:46 i was thinking about using \sql or \regex as markers 21:56:59 sort of macro call :) 21:57:28 but this would be just syntax sugar 21:57:41 I rather embed other languages into the one I'm working in instead of just having them there literally. 21:57:46 This falls down for regexs, tho. 21:57:47 i'm designing the semantics right now, the object layout and the function call standard 21:58:06 so how did you find this place then? :) 21:58:12 btw our wiki is at http://esolangs.org/ 21:58:18 guess I can add that to our sprawling topic 21:58:25 i was here a few times before :) 21:58:34 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/. 21:58:35 ok :) 21:58:37 i think i was designing some concatenative language back then 21:58:44 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. 21:58:56 * ehird greps 2002-present logs for you 21:59:01 but now i'm thinking about something more classical, something with semantics close to .NET (C-like objects, etc) 21:59:12 mainly because such bad performance in matlab and mathematica 21:59:27 I wanted to write a Mathematica replacement myself once. 21:59:29 Still at the back of mind. 21:59:37 i see 21:59:54 THis was mostly driven by ais523 of this place's horror stories about it. 22:00:04 % grep 'ktne' * 22:00:04 % 22:00:17 must be recent, then 22:00:20 (I manually downloaded those logs) 22:00:25 -!- impomatic has joined. 22:00:28 ends at 2008-10-31 22:00:28 what horror stories? 22:00:40 i haven't been here since 2008-10-31 22:00:52 ok, you haven't been here before that either, at least at ktne 22:00:53 *as 22:00:56 so maybe i'm not in the logs, aha, i'm a vampire, no mirrors :) 22:01:27 ktne: the horror stories were mostly from when he was writing his proof of: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solved.html; he wrote the programs for it in Perl but wolfram required him to rewrite them in mathematica for their egos 22:01:33 i'm looking mainly for a replacement for matlab but with more symbolic stuff, a la mathematica 22:01:37 stuff like its awful performance, the crazy-ass HoldFirst thing 22:01:43 and the basic idea that it's just a pattern-matcher at heart 22:01:52 iirc he got it to crash a lot 22:02:02 i see 22:02:24 my main issues are peformance related 22:02:29 i tried to actually try it, but they wanted to look over my trial request manually, and they didn't send me a link. ho hum 22:02:49 first, they are not fast when interpreting algorithms, they are fast only when doing core processing, stdlib stuff 22:02:50 ktne: doesn't mathematica just hardcode a bunch of algos in C so that it's fast iff you're doing what wolfram does? 22:02:54 yeah 22:02:59 then second issue 22:03:06 is that they cannot handle large datasets 22:03:17 because they want to load everything in memory 22:03:31 i need something that can work off-disk 22:03:37 mm 22:03:38 maybe mmap the data files 22:03:42 why does it have to be C-speed though? 22:03:45 Does anyone know what the smallest Brainfuck hello world is? 22:03:46 C is pretty, well, fast. 22:03:52 impomatic: yes, iirc egobot generated it 22:03:54 but egobot is dead 22:03:57 i think it may be on the wiki 22:04:26 The one on the wiki is 143 22:04:44 because i wanted to do some rather intensive pattern matching in mathematica and it was just too slow and memory-hungry compare to the C version 22:04:53 impomatic: I could try and grep the logs for egobot's I think it was 113 or sth 22:04:55 *compared 22:05:07 right, but surely it doesn't need to be _as_ fast as C? 22:05:20 well that's one of my goals, from the start 22:05:30 R for example is extremely slow too 22:05:38 Ehird: thanks, that would be a big help. Google didn't show up much 22:05:54 Is 113 the best? Was that generated by a GA or something? 22:06:04 I'm not sure of the actual number, but ye 22:06:04 s 22:06:12 a Java program, I think 22:06:19 matlab can be fast but it requires you to vectorize your algorithms, which can be complicated sometime 22:06:19 (egobot let you generate BF text as a command) 22:06:44 neither mathematica or matlab have actually been designed for fast random access into arrays 22:06:59 impomatic: 22:06:59 just try to do a FOR loop in matlab :) 22:07:00 15:20:20 !bf_txtgen Hello, world! 22:07:01 15:21:04 118 +++++++++++[>++++++>++++>+++++++++>+++<<<<-]>++++++.>>++.+++++++..+++.<.>>-.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+. [839] 22:07:06 118 22:07:08 rice is me by the way 22:07:10 that's from jan 2008 22:07:13 so probably the most refined so far 22:07:32 Thanks :-) 22:07:55 np :) 22:08:18 And there is annoying thing in matlab that doing per-element lookup on vector can transpose the result... 22:08:48 everything will be perfect when we have processors that run Haskell natively. 22:08:57 so basically i want something really fast, but with an interactive repl and interactive graphics 22:09:15 but i want to stay away from class based oop for personal taste 22:09:21 ktne: do you want a pony too? :p 22:09:27 why not just stay away from oop, anyhoo 22:09:30 :-[ 22:09:31 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 22:09:47 * ehird is probably biase 22:09:47 d 22:09:50 ehird: well i really want oop :) 22:09:57 maybe something that mirrors the file system 22:10:00 um sure :p 22:10:02 so you could store values in the FS 22:10:04 ew 22:10:24 I think you want PHP, they chose \ as their namespace separator because they can't write a parser and because it was the windows dir separator (seriously) 22:10:26 persistence is another goal of mine 22:10:26 :p 22:10:46 :) 22:10:51 serializable continuations are awesome but you also have to serialize sockets and crap to do that properly 22:10:52 which is hard 22:11:07 well i'm not that interested into serializing externalities 22:11:18 only the internal state 22:11:30 ktne: there's an efficient way to do garbage collection that leaves you with efficient function calls and also efficient continuations 22:11:31 http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/CheneyMTA.html 22:11:46 might be worth checking out 22:11:53 "Appel's method avoids making a large number of small trampoline bounces by occasionally jumping off the Empire State Building. " 22:12:43 checking.. 22:13:47 funny :) 22:14:15 ktne: i assume, by the way, that you're compiling 22:14:22 because interpreting at C speed is, um... impossible. 22:14:29 i'm thinking about using llvm 22:14:52 llvm unfortunately is very imperative 22:15:18 i can't see any other option 22:15:27 compile to machine code? 22:15:29 i don't feel like wanting to implement a JIT :) 22:15:48 if you really need C speed... ) 22:15:49 :) 22:15:56 llvm generates C speed 22:16:09 i'm mostly afraid of optimizations 22:16:20 it generates C speed if your language is mostly imperative, I would say 22:16:28 implementing proper optimizations is very time consuming which is why i don't want to compile to machine code myself 22:16:42 well i guess my language is meant to be mostly imperative 22:16:45 well heck, if you want C speed you'd better be ready to spend a lotta time on it ;) 22:16:51 maybe single assignment 22:17:16 i think haskell is nearing C-speed 22:17:21 that's pretty mathematical :P 22:17:31 i don't really like pure functional stuff 22:17:46 why? :) 22:17:47 mainly because of resource impredictability issues 22:17:48 haskell's compiler is also black magic 22:18:06 resource usage has be be fairly easy to estimate 22:18:08 Deewiant: I don't think ghc is _that_ obscure... 22:18:19 ktne: i think some of the peeps in #haskell have done work on that 22:18:19 hi Deewiant 22:18:32 might wanna ask them 22:18:37 well also pure functional is not that suitable for matlab-like stuff 22:18:48 why 22:18:55 and i'm not willing to spend years on the compilation stuff :) 22:19:08 i have to have this done in months :) llvm with a frontend on top :) 22:19:14 hi ktne 22:19:31 "have" to? 22:19:37 if you have to have c speed really quickly, use c? :P 22:19:40 well i have to use it for some real stuff 22:19:46 because C is not interactive, nor ddynamic 22:19:54 i want interactive graphs and stuff 22:19:56 like that 22:20:07 good luck with C speed for that ;-) 22:20:31 :) 22:20:54 well i was thinking about using some google jvm-like techniques 22:21:10 jscript vm i mean 22:21:22 but jscript is limited from the start due to semantic issues 22:21:23 i think your three goals - interactive, c-speed, and not long to develop - are contradictory. 22:21:56 there is no such language so far 22:22:10 exactly 22:22:36 it doesn't feel that hard to do, i just think nobody tried 22:22:44 the first two are contradictory I'd say — it's like having a language which compiles to optimized C but with zero compilation time :-) 22:22:55 and the first two contradict the last 22:23:02 for example most scripting languages don't have C-like types which makes them slow from the start 22:23:23 Deewiant: i'm not that interested in zero compilation time, more in fast execution 22:23:36 ... and interactiveness. 22:23:39 yes 22:23:40 ktne: just talking about the semantics of 'C speed' and 'interactive' put together 22:23:54 >> 2+2 22:23:55 (...) 22:23:56 (...) 22:23:58 (...) 22:24:00 (...) 22:24:02 4 22:24:04 >> 22:24:07 i.e. if you want interactive + C speed you need zero time spent to generate the C-speed code :-) 22:24:20 unless you can generate code which is faster than C, which is unlikely 22:24:27 well C spends a lot of time in compilation stage too :) 22:24:33 yeah, exactly 22:24:34 and C is not interactive 22:24:36 because of that 22:24:37 which is why, good luck :-P 22:24:38 compilation time is not an issue for me 22:24:46 yes it IS 22:24:48 only execution speed is an issue 22:24:49 if you want it to be interactive, it is 22:24:49 you want interactivity 22:24:58 interactive time = compilation time + runtime 22:25:18 i don't see how compiling one line of code at a time can be that slow 22:25:29 since that's what i mean by interactivity, a repl 22:25:42 it's not that slow, but it won't be C speed 22:25:45 that's all compilation that needs to be fast 22:25:51 compiling a file can be slower 22:25:53 it might be /almost/ C speed 22:25:56 y'know, try sbcl 22:25:58 but that's different 22:26:01 it's REPL is basically C speed 22:26:02 we're just arguing semantics :-P 22:26:05 well i assume that each line takes a long time toe xecute 22:26:09 to 22:26:30 that's why repl compilation time is not an issue, as long as there is no visible lag per command, i'm ok with it 22:26:36 "no visible lag per command" 22:26:43 that's, um 22:26:44 good luck 22:27:18 'no visible lag' + 'C speed' don't mix unless you add a qualifier like 'close to' to the latter :-) 22:27:18 ok, let's not digress 22:27:52 i mean no visible lang from when you type ENTER and up to when it starts executing the command 22:28:07 even if compiling just one line of code takes 0.25sec, that's still acceptable 22:28:13 0.25sec is, um, visible lag. 22:28:15 0.25 is visible :-) 22:28:20 0.25sec is HUGELY visible 22:28:25 0.1 is approximately when it starts to get visible 22:28:35 ok, 0.1 then 22:28:38 depends on the user's speed obviously 22:28:41 i assume llvm compiles quite fast 22:28:59 compiling one function is not that much 22:29:02 I notice 0.05 :\ 22:29:11 my main issue is execution time 22:29:18 depends on what you're doing, too, of course 22:29:27 what kind of semantic restrictions do i have to add in order to get good performance from a dynamic language 22:29:31 that's my question 22:29:39 anything but classes, i can't stand classes 22:29:47 losing dynamic types helps ;-) 22:30:10 -!- nice has joined. 22:30:10 assuming that's what you meant by 'dynamic' 22:30:10 how can you have interactivity without dynamic types? 22:30:16 everything is a tradeoff, purity vs efficiency. 22:30:18 see haskell, for instance 22:30:22 yeah haskell 22:30:30 i'm not interested in language purity at all 22:30:30 haskell even behaves dynamic 22:30:32 since it's inferred 22:30:34 ktne: why would interactivity require dynamic types? 22:30:35 i don't care if it looks like perl :) 22:30:41 ktne: you misunderstand purity. 22:30:51 you're saying, oh I need mallable prototype objects 22:30:53 Deewiant: because i want to be able to add methods at runtime 22:30:59 ehird: yes 22:30:59 and that's taking purity over efficiency 22:31:09 that does sort of require dynamic types, yes :-) 22:31:16 i was thinking about adding something liek a Seal method to objects 22:31:31 can you do object.Seal.Club 22:31:33 that would prevent any further modification of object structure 22:31:46 how useful would that be? 22:31:55 if it's not sealed then it would execute slower 22:32:14 sooo now you can't add methods at runtime 22:32:16 so what is the point 22:32:20 well you can 22:32:25 My first attempt to write a brainfuck hello world by hand - 122 instructions :-( 22:32:26 but then it would be "un-sealed" 22:32:33 and execution would be slower 22:32:36 see what i mean? 22:32:54 i'm willing to accept this as a sacrifice :) 22:32:58 take a look at recent javascript engines 22:33:23 Asztal: the problem with jscript is that you have to check to see if the object structure has been modified after each function call 22:33:29 ktne: dropping objects helps a lot. 22:33:39 you can still add methods at runtime 22:33:41 by just defining a function 22:33:51 and there's no overhead to the actual "object" 22:33:53 (data) 22:34:43 that would still have the same issue 22:34:53 because the object structure could change 22:35:07 (data structure) 22:35:17 instead of changing it 22:35:20 just redefine it 22:35:29 what would happen to old objects? 22:35:39 or maybe i could redefine then copy the old object in the new one? 22:35:47 ktne: yeah, something like that 22:35:50 that would also be more semantically pure 22:35:58 yes 22:36:02 ktne: immutable objects also helps 22:36:10 but that's going into functional purity land 22:36:30 haskell 22:36:31 Prelude> let a $$ b = a+(b/2.0) 22:36:32 Prelude> 1 $$ 3 22:36:34 2.5 22:36:43 bam, I just defined a method on (Fractional a) => a -> a -> a :-P 22:36:48 well immutable objects would be ok too 22:37:02 but i need to be able to apply immutability to any object at any point 22:37:14 i meant make all "objects" immutable 22:37:17 ah 22:37:20 no, i can't do that 22:37:26 that would make many algorithms too slow 22:37:29 um 22:37:31 no. 22:37:40 you can optimize it very well 22:37:59 make copied objects reference their copier, use mutation if there's only one reference around 22:38:00 etc 22:38:06 see: GHC haskell compiler 22:38:14 i can't afford optimisations other than llvm 22:38:40 You can afford GHC :-) 22:38:43 i can't really reimplement GHC :) 22:38:49 so use ghc? ;) 22:38:55 can it be embedded? 22:39:00 in which way 22:39:03 to compile snippets of code to machine code 22:39:08 within the same process 22:39:09 GHC has a repl 22:39:12 hmm 22:39:19 like I just showed you 22:39:20 Prelude> let a $$ b = a+(b/2.0) 22:39:21 Prelude> 1 $$ 3 22:39:23 2.5 22:39:25 that was in a REPL 22:39:27 all instant 22:39:29 but still, i'm not sure how could you translate an imperative program to ghc 22:39:30 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 22:39:36 to haskell, you mean 22:39:39 yes 22:39:41 well, it is a restructuring, of course 22:39:56 IMO the result is a better program, but there you go 22:40:07 just put it all in main 22:40:16 there's plenty of real-world haskell libraries, btw: 22:40:17 http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/pkg-list.html 22:40:19 1000 of them 22:40:25 my issue is the language :) 22:40:34 i just don't like ghc :) or haskell :) 22:40:42 in general i don't like functional stuff 22:40:46 shrug 22:40:59 because i need to run common algorithms 22:41:00 haskell is the best imperative language 22:41:12 ktne: common algorithms fit functionality well 22:41:24 i just feel that most of the optimizations you do just bring you closer to haskell 22:41:26 ehird: common as in: expressed in standard C form 22:41:43 if you can read C and you can read Haskell ... you can translate between the two 22:41:51 there's also libraries for stuff like that 22:42:10 i don't really want to do that :) 22:42:21 i don't want ghc as a dependency :) 22:42:29 i won't touch it with a pole :) 22:42:53 i need a classical environment that can be used by people familiar with matlab 22:43:00 then you have to go slower 22:43:01 it's all tradeoffs 22:43:04 as a faster matlab replacement 22:43:15 you can have your cake and eat it, but it might not have cherries on top :-) 22:43:56 the reason why i don't want to rely on ghc is because of the black magic that happens behind 22:44:05 what black magic 22:44:21 at least with llvm i have a good idea of all optimizations that happen and how the program is transformed by those optimizations 22:44:35 ghc has documentation 22:44:43 also how could i debug that code? 22:45:01 by... debugging it? 22:45:03 because you can't debug it if it's converted to haskell 22:45:18 i mean debugging the interactive repl code 22:45:20 i'm not saying convert the program to haskell . . . 22:45:37 how could you otherwise use ghc as a compiled? 22:45:44 *compiler? 22:45:52 by feeding it haskell? 22:45:56 hi kids 22:46:08 then i have to convert my program to haskell, right? 22:46:10 ehird: how's bsmntbombgirl ? 22:46:11 hi bsmntbombgirl 22:46:13 *bot 22:46:21 bsmntbombgirl: a bit broken atm, I can fix it. 22:46:28 bsmntbombgirl: I think I'll sue you for the misleading name 22:46:35 ktne: or you could write your program in haskell, y'know 22:46:45 not my program 22:46:49 ehird: that shit needs to be put in source control 22:46:52 the program you run in the repl 22:47:10 ktne: what i'm saying is: Haskell already does all your requirements :-) 22:47:19 bsmntbombgirl: it needs a rewrite tbh 22:47:19 it's not orthodox enough 22:47:25 ktne: why is this a problem? 22:47:27 yeah 22:47:33 because it has to run standard code 22:47:35 imperative stuff 22:47:39 why 22:47:51 because i find it nearly impossible to code functional :) 22:47:54 i was thinking i should write an irc server 22:48:04 bsmntbombgirl: i thought that, it's a bit of a pain tbh 22:48:16 why? 22:48:50 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 22:48:54 because the RFC is stupid, and networking code handling a huge amount of people is stupid 22:49:43 i just wrote a rather nice (imo) abstraction over the network part 22:49:55 using libevent 22:50:18 bsmntbombgirl: bsmnt_bot's charm is that it sucks 22:50:26 what do you mean? 22:50:56 it doesn't do anything and you can mess it up with the python command, but it's fun to have it around anyway :P 22:51:34 -!- oklopol has joined. 22:52:46 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 22:53:34 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:55:32 -!- jix has joined. 23:01:20 ehird: ghc appears to have quite poor performance compared to C 23:01:30 -!- Corun has joined. 23:01:35 it's not perfect, but it can be made faster with some optimization hints 23:01:50 and the speed is still very reasonable by default, for most tasks 23:02:22 it's not really what i want 23:02:28 i can't stand haskell :-/ 23:02:32 if GHC is poor compared to C then good luck getting the kind of speed you want :-P 23:02:48 Deewiant: llvm is pretty fast 23:02:58 ktne: depends on the kind of code you give it 23:03:00 haskell is great, I think what you're saying is ... I haven't really used haskell much, but it sounds scary :-) 23:03:06 Deewiant: classical imperative code 23:03:21 well yeah, that's what the LLVM IR is 23:03:27 more important is what the code does :-P 23:03:47 mostly array and graph manipulations 23:04:09 that does not sound very imperative to me 23:04:33 imperative code is just manually optimized functional code. kind of like writing asm instead of C. you rarely do better. meh. 23:04:43 except you often do better :P 23:04:54 i can't think in a pure functional fashion 23:05:02 i'm sure you can 23:05:02 so i don't want a pure functional language 23:05:04 you just haven't tried 23:05:14 ehird: lol wut 23:05:15 not 23:05:29 convincing arguments 23:05:38 ok, let's suppose you want to implement a longest common subsequence algorithm in haskell, how that would look like? 23:06:04 ktne: pretty simple 23:06:09 http://www.rosettacode.org/wiki/Longest_Common_Subsequence#Haskell 23:06:39 trivial translation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_common_subsequence#LCS_function_defined 23:08:05 how many years of haskell experience do i need to implement the memoization example? 23:08:06 -!- nice has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:08:12 0 23:08:15 that's hellaciously inneficient 23:08:22 bsmntbombgirl: shh ;-) 23:08:26 bsmntbombgirl: sure, it's a naive implementation 23:08:32 those are generally slow 23:08:39 ehird: i'm looking at the memoization example 23:08:43 ktne: that haskell code is easy to understand once you have a grasp of Haskell 23:08:44 not at the simple recursive one 23:08:51 so, like I said.. 0 23:09:03 0 if using integer divide :) 23:09:16 ok, what I mean is < 1 23:09:20 you didn't specify the type of your answer so it defaulted to integer :-P 23:09:29 s/your answer/the answer you wanted/ 23:10:24 that code is horrible :/ 23:10:26 god is real 23:10:39 ktne: ITYM "I don't understand that code" 23:10:41 bsmntbombgirl: i see 23:11:32 the nonmemoize haskell code is beautiful 23:11:40 so is the memoized :P 23:11:48 i tried reading the definition of LCS and its painful to read 23:11:52 the haskell code makes it all clear 23:11:57 DAMN YOU HASKELL 23:12:06 how can i test that code? 23:12:13 without installing ghc 23:12:24 ummm 23:12:32 how can you run code without installing an implementation 23:12:35 you don't. 23:12:40 is it possible in ghc to redefine object? 23:12:46 be more specific 23:12:49 i mean, redefine functions 23:12:53 yes, in the REPL. 23:13:53 let's suppose i want to count how many times a substring appears in a larger string 23:13:57 how would that look in haskell? 23:14:11 are you getting me to write your program for you? :D 23:14:15 yes 23:14:20 i can't write them myself :) 23:14:32 yes you can 23:14:47 i just want to see how it looks like 23:15:30 http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base/Data-List.html 23:15:34 there's probably a function in there to do it :P 23:15:36 * ehird peeks 23:15:40 that's not what i need 23:15:46 i need to implement all those algorithms myself 23:15:50 why 23:16:00 the library writers are much better at it than you 23:16:02 because it's a tool for computing stuff 23:16:09 why do you have to write your own 23:16:19 because isn't that the purpose of the tool?\ 23:16:23 huh? 23:16:27 to allow people to implement algorithms 23:16:46 i need a matlab replacement 23:16:51 generally people don't write all the algorithms they use in their program 23:16:59 i can't depend on libraries for that 23:17:13 why 23:17:19 that library is in core GHC 23:17:23 if you have GHC, you have that library 23:17:30 because i need to implement that many more algorithms 23:17:35 that are mostly non-standard 23:17:38 ok 23:18:16 so, any idea how to speed a jscript-like language? :-D 23:18:30 sigh 23:18:33 first, add proper C integer types and proper C arrays 23:18:35 yes, apply all the transformations to it to make it more static 23:18:58 static dance uuuuh yeah 23:19:03 New brainfuck Hello World = 115. That's 3 instructions shorter 23:19:20 where's egobot when you need one 23:19:29 how long does he produce? 23:19:32 oklopol: i already gave him that 23:19:40 118 23:19:45 but impomatic's beaten that 23:19:47 i need to figure out some bf-textgen again 23:20:07 ehird: ah cool; seems i didn't read the logs then. 23:21:01 I was hoping to reach 88 so my interpretter and Hello World fit in 100 instructions, but I don't think there's any chance 23:21:08 walking the graph with A* would work 23:21:10 +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>++++>+++>++++++++<<<<<-]>-----.>++.+++++++..+++.>.>-.>-.<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+. 23:21:16 impomatic: you have a 22 char bf interp? 23:21:24 but that's probably ridiculously slow 23:21:24 the one on wp is 88 23:21:28 but you probably know that too 23:21:37 oh 23:21:38 you probably don't 23:21:40 No, 12 instruction interpretter :-) 23:21:45 woah 23:21:47 paste it 23:21:56 also, yeah 23:21:57 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. 23:21:59 from wp 23:22:26 impomatic: show this interp! :) 23:22:54 12 instructions beats cise by quite a lot 23:22:55 And it's not slow. When it starts execution, it converts all [ and ] to relative jumps 23:23:17 impomatic: can you show it? 23:23:20 shoooooooooooooooooow itttttttttttttt 23:23:24 The interpretter is more of a compiler, and it's in redcode 23:23:27 oooh 23:23:29 SHOWWWW ITTTTTTT 23:24:33 Okay, wait! 23:25:35 damn 12 instructions 23:25:37 that is impressive 23:26:25 Not so impressive: http://pastebin.ca/1317388 23:27:01 When the redcode is compiled, it uses macros to compile brainfuck to redcode 23:27:27 still pretty awesome 23:27:29 There are 12 instructions to fix the [ and ] jump addresses 23:27:36 where are the macros 23:27:44 write a brainfuck optimizer 23:27:48 ehird: the first lines 23:27:49 Macros at the top 23:27:55 ah 23:28:00 equ's 23:28:12 man, that's awesome 23:28:22 Thanks 23:28:24 impomatic: how much would it take to add a parser? 23:29:22 Not much, but first I need to recompile the redcode interpretter. Haven't got a C compiler on this Windoze machine 23:30:03 i gotta write my own RISC, beating 12 instructions will be hard 23:30:16 I will add a parser to read in Brainfuck from a file. 23:30:16 And possibly add a table based optimizer 23:30:32 Often 2 brainfuck instructions could be reduced to 1 redcode instruction 23:30:33 well 23:30:35 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Yael 15 instructions 23:30:43 but only 256 bytes of addressable memory... 23:30:53 so code+data has to be <256 bytes :( 23:31:23 well, it also has 8 registers 23:31:33 so 264 23:31:40 but you can't put code in registers, ofc 23:31:48 -!- yuri815 has joined. 23:33:28 ehird: you should add a context switch operator, so you could have a tape of 256 cell memories 23:33:33 i mean two of those 23:33:36 possibly 23:33:39 but it's basically vinalized 23:33:43 yes. 23:33:46 i remember the process 23:33:46 i think it's prety nice 23:33:55 I mean, that cat program is pretty small 23:34:01 *finalized 23:34:01 it's a local maximum, definitely. 23:34:06 wut 23:34:09 :P 23:34:14 whaddya talking about :P 23:34:25 small fixes won't make it purer. 23:34:31 *small changes 23:34:45 and by pure i mean... i don't know. pretty 23:35:28 unfortunately, code isn't always a round number of bytes 23:35:34 e.g. cat is 8 bytes + 1 bit 23:35:40 so you just need to pad it out with 0s 23:35:44 still 23:35:46 9 byte cat program 23:35:49 not bad, ey? 23:35:58 6 instructions, 9 bytes 23:36:20 00000000 00110100 00001000 01111110 01010110 10011000 11000000 00001111 10000000 23:37:08 no it's not bad 23:37:13 * ehird writes yael interp 'cuz why not 23:38:03 ya w nut. 23:38:07 *y 23:40:03 The Hello World from Wikipedia outputs a different string. No comma, but a newline 23:40:18 ah. 23:40:21 so what :-) 23:45:38 oklopol: problem with implementing yael: you have to split bytse apart :( 23:45:44 because shit can go across byte lines and stuff 23:46:07 ehird: yeah. are you surprised? :P 23:46:10 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 23:46:20 no :D 23:46:45 oklopol: what is hello world in cise 23:46:47 -!- yuri815 has quit. 23:46:48 ? 23:47:04 it's not actually hard though, it's just slower 23:47:07 err. 23:47:22 wait 23:47:51 hmm. 23:47:59 i have no idea how to output stuff :P 23:48:11 i usually don't care much for that practical nonsense 23:48:20 wait. 23:48:23 actually... 23:48:25 i think it's H 23:48:28 so 23:48:30 H"Hello, world! 23:48:31 ? 23:48:41 no... i think printing hello world is H... :P 23:48:46 hahah 23:48:51 ok what about printing hello world sans cheatin 23:48:52 g 23:49:00 iirc i decided Q and H should be in the instr set for luls 23:49:28 it would just be "Hello world", plus 1 or 2 characters of function before it if i add a print command 23:49:53 wow, how verbose 23:49:54 golfscript is 23:49:57 "Hello, world!" 23:50:20 it prints the stack after running the program? 23:50:26 yeah, pops and prints 23:50:31 and puts input first on stack before running 23:50:43 right, right. 23:52:25 cise could well work like that too, have input as the program's param, apply the program to it, print result 23:52:49 but, well, i'm more interested in the more interesting aspects. 23:53:25 hmm 23:53:39 what can make an assembly language really concise is good comparison jumps, I think 23:53:43 like C's switch(){} 23:55:06 so how about designing such a basic instruction set you're writing in computation itself? 23:55:38 oklopol: wut? 23:55:40 :P 23:55:55 ehird: well, on second thought, that made absolutely no sense. 23:56:05 but still, it's worth considering. 23:56:20 that's basically a OISC 23:56:27 "what operation embodies the fundamental operation of computing?" 23:59:04 that's not nearly as fundamental as i had in mind 23:59:29 i'm talking so low-level you may not even be able to implement it in this universe. 23:59:38 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 23:59:38 there's simply too much computation going on no matter what you do 23:59:55 lol 2009-01-25: 00:00:08 you can't reach the level i'm talking about. the absolute bottom of informational computationality. 00:00:22 so. 00:00:29 i think the fundamental imperative computational is something like: 00:00:39 in other words i think i should sleep 00:00:48 Perform an operation on two values and put the result somewhere, then go somewhere else depending on the result. 00:01:07 so let's say 00:01:12 sjz A B C 00:01:16 A and B are memory addresses 00:01:23 "go" "put" "perform" 00:01:26 subtracts the value in A and the value in B 00:01:34 and puts the result in B 00:01:38 then, if the result is zero 00:01:40 it jumps to C 00:01:44 otherwise, execution continues as normal 00:02:00 good? 00:02:19 equality comparison: 00:02:21 that's so compicated i can't understand it, let alone read or see it. 00:02:25 sjz A B notequal 00:02:26 *complicated 00:02:28 [its equal] 00:02:30 notequal: 00:02:32 [its not equal] 00:02:36 Notwithstanding, there is no Turing-complete language simpler than BCT. 00:02:42 maybe. 00:02:47 but i"m talking about instruction sets 00:02:49 imperative unz 00:02:49 oklopol: is "equals" too complicated for you? 00:02:52 kerlo: you're wrong 00:02:55 ocrap 00:02:57 I invented subleq 00:02:58 Execution of one instruction A B C subtracts the value of memory in A from the content of memory in B. If value after subtraction in B less or equal to zero, then execution jumps to the address C; otherwise to the next instruction. 00:03:05 well, less or equal to zero 00:03:07 No, simplicity is objective and I'm always right. 00:03:10 so mine's kind of less complex 00:03:25 kerlo: testing equality is pretty hard, yes 00:03:37 I never said testing equality. 00:03:43 so umm. 00:03:48 how about continuous computation 00:03:51 Proce. 00:03:55 ok then: 00:03:55 you need an infinite amount of it to get anything done 00:03:57 ej A B C 00:04:07 Proce. 00:04:08 programs are functions from reals to instruction fragments 00:04:11 proce? 00:04:13 Reads A and B, if the values are equal, it stores 1 in B, otherwise it stores 0 in B. 00:04:16 If they ARE equal, it jumps to C. 00:04:17 RSSB is less complex. One instruction and only one operand 00:04:24 Hmm. 00:04:24 impomatic: link? 00:04:38 i'm going for conceptual simplicity here 00:04:44 so if RSSB does a lot, it doesn't qualify 00:04:47 hmm you know what 00:04:53 i think ej could possibly be TC 00:04:56 if you scratched the storing 00:05:03 kerlo: proce? 00:05:09 if the value in A is the value in B, jump to C. otherwise, continue as normal. 00:05:13 dunno how you store things ofc :D 00:05:32 kerlo: so umm proce? 00:05:35 It's a programming language where every variable thingy is a function of real numbers. 00:05:48 You can implement the sine function very easily in Proce. 00:05:54 oh that lang of yours? 00:06:04 Yes. 00:06:07 that has nothing to do with what i said, but yeah, i remember it 00:06:20 See the RSSB page I made the other day http://esolangs.org/wiki/RSSB 00:06:29 hrm 00:06:30 interesting 00:06:37 essentially you have differential equations iirc 00:06:38 but it has registers 00:06:40 so not simple 00:06:45 which are automatically solved 00:06:53 Well, it had plenty to do with what you said until you said "programs are functions from reals to instruction fragments". 00:06:56 to get definitions for funcs involved 00:06:59 What do you mean by "instruction fragments"? 00:07:19 impomatic: can't IP/ACC be in memory? 00:07:21 like, at 0 and 1 00:07:31 ah 00:07:32 it is 00:07:37 "The result is stored in both memory and the accumulator" 00:07:38 both? 00:07:41 surely that is not needed 00:07:46 can't it just be in the accumulator/ 00:07:47 kerlo: proce doesn't have continuous computation, it has computation applied on continuous things. 00:07:48 (Tough language: Programs are continuous functions from reals to reals where the image contains only integers.) 00:07:51 *applied to 00:08:03 hmm 00:08:17 kerlo: i have no idea what i mean by instruction fragments. 00:08:35 Oh. 00:08:48 impomatic: ? 00:08:48 i mean continuous computation. instructions you can have any real amount of. 00:09:09 ehird: I'm not sure why the spec said both 00:09:20 * ehird writes simplified rssb 00:09:27 say you do instruction : 3.16 times, then # 87.001 times, and... umm... maybe something happens. 00:09:35 * kerlo nods 00:09:47 impomatic: define below 0 00:09:52 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:09:56 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:09:57 signed integers in an architechture? Perverse. 00:10:03 kerlo: i'm just trying to think outside the box, computation's always so discrete and boring. 00:10:13 below 0: if the subtraction causes a borrow 00:10:41 So, memory is a continuous function from R. 00:10:47 There's a redcode implementation at http://impomatic.blogspot.com 00:10:51 impomatic: i don't follow 00:10:54 essplain? 00:10:56 you mean like 00:11:00 1-2 00:11:00 And, um... 00:11:05 kerlo: yeah maybe, and instructions perform on single values 00:11:06 despite not being below 0 00:11:08 since there's no such thing 00:11:10 counts as it? 00:11:14 Yes 00:11:18 okie 00:11:26 kerlo: so you need an uncountable amount of them to get anything done 00:11:46 Basically if prior to the subtraction, acc > contents of memory location, skip the next instruction 00:12:10 mem locs: 0 ip, 1 accumulator, 2 always contains 0, 3 input, 4 output 00:12:11 Instruction: Subtract the accumulator from the contents of the operand, and 00:12:12 store it in the accumulator. If this caused a borrow, jump to the instruction 00:12:14 past the next one. 00:12:20 simplified 00:12:22 kerlo: also flow control isn't jumping, it's more like slowly fading into another kind of computation, and somehow implement this by finding the conceptual integral of what the fading computation will achieve during its infinite fade. 00:12:23 An instruction is a continuous function f : x real number -> such that f(f(x,a),b) = f(x,a+b). 00:12:31 For all x, a and b. 00:12:36 impomatic: so is there a reason it has to be stored in both? 00:12:59 There is an implementation of RSSB by David Tanguay, but I can't find a copy online 00:12:59 s/real number/non-negative real number/ 00:13:11 impomatic: ? 00:13:23 ehird: I just implemented as per David Tanguay's spec 00:13:26 yeah 00:13:33 I'm just wondering if only storing in the acc could be simpler 00:13:41 kerlo: that's a bit too concrete at this point. 00:13:49 Is not. 00:13:54 you don't want to have your functions be discrete objects.... 00:14:10 * kerlo shrugs 00:14:13 they need to be continuous computation 00:14:13 wait 00:14:18 storing it in just one is useless 00:14:20 hrm 00:14:21 but both is ugly 00:14:33 i think the accumulator is a hack 00:14:42 kerlo: i guess that's pretty much the definition of continuous computation though :P 00:14:48 the accumulator is a lie 00:14:52 hmm or not. 00:15:16 kerlo: but err, probably a good definition. 00:15:23 ehird: if it only stores in acc, there's no way to modify memory. if it only stores in memory, then the only thing you can do with acc is set it to zero 00:15:45 yeah 00:15:49 still 00:15:51 it's ugly 00:16:12 The set Q consists of all continuous functions Q -> Q. 00:16:27 Q is the least fixed point of that. 00:16:40 Or, if you prefer, the union of all fixed points of that. 00:16:47 impomatic: 00:16:47 sjlz a b: Subtract the contents of a from the contents of b, and store the 00:16:48 result in b. If this caused a borrow, skip the next instruction. 00:16:52 much more conceptually pure 00:16:54 kerlo: sounds feasible 00:16:58 and only one more operand 00:18:34 I is in Q, as for all x in Q, x is in Q, and if a set S of Q's is open, its preimage under I (that is, S) is also open. 00:19:13 kerlo: I as in identity? 00:19:16 For all x in Q, K x is in Q, as for all y in Q, x is in Q, and if a set S of Q's is open, its preimage under I (either Q or empty) is also open. 00:19:23 I is identity combinator, K is constant combinator. 00:19:23 right. 00:19:30 yeah you answered that already 00:20:02 kerlo: did you invent Q just now? 00:20:20 Yes. 00:20:48 "if a set S of Q's is open, its preimage under I (that is, S) is also open" i don't understand this 00:20:59 outputting a 00:21:00 a out 00:21:00 but then again, you're the abstract nonsense guy :P 00:21:01 =a 97 00:21:05 where a out -> ajlz a out 00:21:13 and =a 97 defines a bit of memory with that value in. 00:21:26 ajlz a b: Add the contents of a to the contents of b, and store the result in b. 00:21:26 If this caused an overflow, skip the next instruction. 00:21:30 The preimage of S under I is S. Therefore, if a set S is open, its preimage under I is also open. 00:21:36 And yeah, I love abstract nonsense. 00:21:47 yeah who doesn't 00:22:07 preimage of x = the set of things that map to x? 00:22:13 also 00:22:22 here's a one-instruction one-character cat program 00:22:24 in out 00:22:24 :-D 00:22:27 * ehird makes it loop 00:23:00 oklopol: the set of things that map to elements of x. 00:23:24 kerlo: that's what i meant 00:23:27 impomatic: how do you jump backwards with rssb? 00:23:31 liek, map into x 00:23:38 but yeah okay 00:24:30 kerlo: what's the significance of the "and if a set S of..." part? 00:24:36 For K to be in Q, it must be a function Q -> Q (it is) and it must be continuous. For it to be continuous, the preimage of every open set must be open. 00:25:05 oh. that's a definition for being continuous? 00:25:09 Yep. 00:25:13 ah, alright. 00:25:16 impomatic: how do you jump backwards with rssb? 00:25:23 i'm quite new to this still 00:25:32 ehird: subtract something from ip 00:25:50 ah 00:26:15 and we all know that subtracting is a special case of addition ;-) 00:26:38 kerlo: oh actually i think i see how that relates to the crucial axiom of dedekind sets 00:26:42 The preimage of a set under K is {x : K x is in the set}, of course. And, um... bah, I'm going to ask #math a question. 00:27:12 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 00:27:16 Jump requires 4 lines of RSSB: 00:27:16 rssb acc ; set acc to 0 00:27:17 rssb $+2 ; set acc to loop offset 00:27:17 rssb ip ; subtract acc from ip 00:27:17 rssb $-loop ; the loop offset 00:28:32 then my infinite cat program is 00:29:14 ajof 3 4 00:29:17 ajof 2 0 00:29:29 3=input 4=output 2=maximum int (4294967295) 0=ip 00:29:34 ajof a b: Add the contents of a to the contents of b, and store the result in b. 00:29:34 If this caused an overflow, skip the next instruction. 00:29:50 hrm. 00:29:58 actually since the whole idea there is to overflow that doesn't work. i think 00:30:36 Is there a brainfuck variant which adds a stack? 00:30:46 many. but brainfuck sucks :P 00:30:52 Darn, the answer is "no". 00:31:30 hmm 00:31:31 I thought 00:31:31 max max 00:31:33 in out 00:31:35 in out 00:31:37 max ip 00:31:39 but then when it loops, it runs it twice 00:31:45 (max max doesn't touch max, ofc, since it's constant) 00:31:53 * kerlo ponders the definition of a neighborhood of an element of Q 00:32:00 impomatic: any thoughts? 00:32:04 kerlo: yes i looked 00:32:17 kerlo: what are neighborhoods? 00:33:07 Back tomorrow :-) 00:33:11 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1"). 00:33:29 A neighborhood of a point is a superset of an open set containing that point. 00:33:40 -!- ktne has left (?). 00:33:48 hmm. i'm not sure #math with appreciate your set 00:34:02 okay so 00:34:05 complete spec: 00:34:06 0 is ip, 1 contains 0, 2 contains max int (4294967295), 3 is input, 4 is output 00:34:07 ajof a b: Add the contents of a to the contents of b, and store the result in b. 00:34:09 If this caused an overflow, skip the next instruction. 00:34:11 go forth and write progz >:( 00:34:20 ps ajof a b can be written as ... a b 00:34:30 kerlo: okay right. 00:34:49 :3 00:35:06 f is near g if and only if for all x, f(x) is near g(x). Unfortunately, "near" doesn't mean anything. 00:35:46 In a neighborhood F of f, for all x, F(x) is a neighborhood of f(x), I think. 00:36:31 kerlo: btw that's a pretty weird definition, like, (2,4) U {0} would be a neighborhood of 3? 00:36:51 I believe so. 00:37:03 probably would be less weird if i saw uses. 00:37:27 someoneeeeee 00:37:34 kerlo: i'm not sure you understand what Q is. 00:37:42 What do you think Q is? 00:37:56 Nonexistent due to a power set cardinality theorem? 00:37:58 well i mean; how can a function from functions to functions be continuous? 00:38:33 kerlo: well my intuition says there might be a problem like that, but i don't actually know. what i do know is i don't understand what the definition even means. 00:38:38 I believe that for all topological spaces P and Q, there is a standard topological space P -> Q. 00:38:51 kerlo: problem is i don't know topology 00:39:15 you see i started doing math this fall. i'm doing integrals and groups now. 00:39:25 * kerlo nods 00:40:26 btw. gotta sleep i think. 00:41:13 --> 00:45:57 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 00:56:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:17:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 01:27:00 -!- Corun has joined. 01:35:46 -!- Corun_ has joined. 01:42:40 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:50:28 -!- Corun has quit (Connection timed out). 02:20:40 wtf is this "instantaneous computation"? 02:20:56 and "strong synchronous programming"? D: 02:21:29 You enter shit, and bam! It's computed! 02:21:34 :P 02:25:33 -!- Corun_ has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 02:38:31 Uh? 03:17:40 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:11:23 -!- GregorR has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page; h) Felching – The Freshmaker!. 04:16:32 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:31:31 -!- psygnisf_ has quit ("Leaving..."). 06:10:41 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 06:28:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:29:01 A Dorponnified Talliachre is a lunchbox! It makes clicking noises! 06:29:37 Gregor is a lightbulb that floats in water! It pushes things down staircases and works underwater. 06:34:46 A woman is like a normal cricket bat, but it squirts clouds of black ink. 06:34:56 A man is like a normal pogo stick, but it's inflammable. 06:36:19 A pogo stick is a hair gel that fits in your pocket! It crushes ice. 06:36:29 Hair gel is a speaker system that's great for hammering in nails! It emits dangerous radiation and repairs itself. 06:36:40 I'm done :P 06:39:54 -!- Sgeo_ has quit ("Leaving"). 07:05:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 07:13:03 good god 07:13:08 what is this /topic 07:50:57 -!- spicule has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:05 -!- spicule has quit ("Leaving"). 09:07:25 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has joined. 09:13:02 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:25:46 -!- oklopol has joined. 09:27:07 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:37:59 * oklopol is listening to some quality heavy metal bashing: http://www.vjn.fi/s/black.mp3 11:11:37 -!- Mony has joined. 11:12:41 plop 11:39:39 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:02:37 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 12:05:35 -!- Judofyr has quit (Nick collision from services.). 12:05:51 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 12:17:59 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:28:55 -!- jix has joined. 12:30:52 -!- Slereah has joined. 12:35:08 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 12:42:44 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:49:43 -!- Corun has joined. 12:56:43 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 13:09:43 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 13:09:54 -!- Corun has joined. 13:24:12 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:42:45 -!- impomatic has joined. 13:49:05 112 Hello, World! ++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+++.+++++++..+++.>++.>[<-<<+>>>-]<++.<<+.>.+++.------.--------.>+. 13:59:45 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:00:03 -!- ehird has joined. 14:00:42 112 Hello, World! ++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+++.+++++++..+++.>++.>[<-<<+>>>-]<++.<<+.>.+++.------.--------.>+. 14:00:44 neato! 14:02:44 Hi Ehird. 1 instruction longer than Wikipedia, but it includes the comma. 14:02:56 does it include the newline 14:03:00 No 14:03:08 you really want a newline :p 14:03:28 Some of the other examples didn't have newline 14:03:35 hrm. 14:03:39 It is standard to terminate with 10, thoug 14:03:39 h 14:03:45 err, not 10 newlines :P 14:08:50 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:30:23 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:34:50 -!- luqui has joined. 14:35:22 gah omg 14:35:25 2008-01-18 14:35:25 00:42:31 --- nick: oklopol -> Z 14:35:26 00:42:46 --- nick: Z -> oklopol 14:35:28 00:42:59 too late 14:35:31 oklopol you let it get away 14:35:38 uhhhh 14:35:39 hi people 14:35:42 :| 14:35:47 ^bf ,[.,]!brainfuck. etc. 14:35:48 brainfuck. etc. 14:41:06 Lol at censoring brainfuck to b****fuck :-) 14:43:33 :) 14:48:15 lol 14:48:57 Anyone want to implement Redcode++? http://corewar.co.uk/opcodes.htm 14:49:31 sweet 14:50:00 I wanted to make a esolang like this 14:50:04 but now, it's too late :o 14:51:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:51:30 wait 14:51:32 redcode++? ew 14:51:35 why not just 14:51:36 recode 14:51:36 :P 14:52:02 * oerjan thinks that looks like the end of a haiku 14:52:19 Yael still beats redcode 14:52:33 15 instructions 14:52:35 * AnMaster wonders... 14:52:38 SQL++? 14:52:39 :D 14:52:39 admittedly, you only get 256 bytes of memory. 14:53:03 AnMaster: Newsflash: taking SQL and bashing something on the end of it is not the source of a thousand hilarious ideas. 14:53:06 as much as you want it to be. 14:53:49 ehird, actually C++ style object orientation bolted onto SQL would be quite nasty 14:53:57 nasty != interesting and funny 14:54:01 I mean even nastier than it already is 14:54:14 in as much as the same way as a language based on the holocaust would be "nasty" 14:54:32 ehird, well said 14:54:45 speaking of which, who wants to beta-test holocaust++ :p 14:55:07 specs? 14:55:48 O_O 14:56:50 ehird: what about SQLCOATL? 14:56:52 jew: Takes a random jew off the heap. gas(x): Gasses the jew x. 14:57:11 When you have gassed as many jews as the nazis, it executes the remaining program as Perl. 14:57:16 also: QUERY foo = NEW QUERY('SELECT * FROM mytable'); foo.EXECUTE(); 14:57:17 ;P 14:57:28 -!- luqui has left (?). 14:57:52 the great database serpent 14:58:02 oerjan, :D 14:59:44 oh wait 14:59:57 * oerjan realizes that holocaust++ was made up on the spot here 15:00:06 i was starting to worry about ehird 15:00:49 hee 15:01:13 The holocaust never happened, silly man 15:01:42 oerjan, SQLULHU? 15:01:58 AnMaster: doesn't roll that well off the tentacle 15:02:08 true 15:02:16 hard to pronounce 15:02:20 Slereah: from you this is expected 15:02:21 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:02:37 SQLHU perhaps 15:02:55 oerjan : You expect that from a jew? 15:02:57 Racist 15:03:06 oerjan, hm maybe 15:03:10 Slereah: you've done so before 15:03:32 jew bashing, that is 15:03:56 actually there is probably some jew somewhere denying the holocaust 15:04:53 oerjan, btw: wtf at iwc today 15:04:58 i mean i vaguely recall hearing about neo-nazi jews 15:05:07 AnMaster: um no spoilers 15:05:21 that's next on my schedule :D 15:05:22 I always read that as neon-nazis 15:05:27 it sounds so much cooler than it is 15:06:08 much easier to hit them when lighted up 15:07:05 ah the Espionage theory was right 15:07:38 er wait, disregard, SPOILER :D 15:08:08 oerjan, well, it could be a red hearing 15:08:24 http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?t=3190 15:08:33 no i mean the theory that since it wasn't in the list, it had escaped unscathed 15:09:10 oerjan, that could be a red hearing 15:09:25 >_< 15:09:38 um wait are you misspelling that on purpose? 15:09:46 oerjan, no? 15:09:48 oops 15:09:51 herring* 15:10:05 oerjan, why should I misspell it on purpose? 15:10:15 another awful pun attempt of course 15:10:26 I can't see how that could be a pun 15:10:27 at all 15:10:38 I can't see how any of your "puns" could be a pun. 15:10:40 good, good 15:11:00 AnMaster: now we're just missing a Supers strip 15:11:15 ehird, Chehkov's pun 15:11:17 sorry! 15:12:02 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChekhovsPun 15:12:14 it exists? 15:12:23 (standard tvtropes warning applies) 15:12:31 but of course 15:13:44 oh it's a tvtropes meta-thing 15:14:00 and self-referential too :D 15:14:55 huh, very confusing 15:14:58 -!- impomatic has quit ("http://impomatic.blogspot.com"). 15:15:20 oerjan, oh btw uf was quite funny today 15:15:32 as for the current xkcd: I don't get it 15:15:37 it's about making new trope names by making puns on completely unrelated ones 15:15:57 uf? 15:16:10 uf=userfriendly. shit comic. 15:16:39 too long running 15:16:49 no. too shit 15:16:52 isn't it over 10 years now? daily 15:17:21 ehird, would you say garfield is shit? 15:17:35 Why is that even a question? Who the fuck would say "no"? 15:17:48 I agree. But some of the early ones aren't as bad 15:17:49 AnMaster: you don't want your genetic algorithm to develop sentience and destroy the world, is the point 15:17:52 no 15:18:04 all garfield comics are irredeemably terrible 15:18:07 oerjan, true, but xkcd wasn't very good today 15:18:11 and anyone who likes them has some sort of mental defect 15:18:13 or whatever it was 15:18:14 also, xkcd was hilarious. 15:18:15 it was yesterday 15:18:18 Friday? 15:18:27 if you want to read xkcd it's best to know pop culture. 15:18:39 Monday, Wednesday, Friday, 5:00 UTC 15:18:55 http://www.google.com/search?q=skynet 15:19:00 square root of minus garfield rocks though 15:19:05 ehird, yes I did google it 15:19:17 but I didn't get the other things, like fuel and such 15:19:28 umm, those weren't part of the joke. 15:19:34 those were part of a regular genetic algorithm. 15:19:34 duh. 15:19:36 hm ok 15:19:45 Sources: the _huge freaking arrow_ pointing to the skynet. 15:22:17 * oerjan reads the annotation and realizes why AnMaster spoke about red herrings 15:22:33 oerjan, and read the forum 15:22:54 later, bus -> 15:23:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 15:24:02 * ehird reads logs and rediscovers that `vi` is a 4-character ruby infinite loop 15:24:04 perl too 15:25:00 I wonder who many read xkcd? I mean I googled for some of those phrases in the last blag post and got over 200 000 posts for some... 15:25:09 (that he said was original when he tried) 15:25:29 afk 15:25:31 ~34974 15:25:43 34974 is the forum members. about 10% of people join the forum, I bet. 15:25:48 so 300000 15:25:50 ors o 15:25:51 *or so 15:25:58 probably more. 15:26:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:29:38 I'd guess 10% is a very optimistic figure 15:30:33 yeah 15:30:40 probably 2% or something 15:30:47 i mean, i never looked at the forum 15:31:06 I have looked at it if I was linked by someone else 15:31:09 but that is all 15:33:08 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:51:26 hi ais523. 15:51:31 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:51:33 hi 15:51:38 to both ehird and Hiato 15:51:50 who I have different reasons to say hi to, ehird because he just said hi, and Hiato for just joining 15:51:52 i was 20 minutes late 15:51:52 :) 15:52:07 Well hello ais523, glad I could 'just join' you :P 16:17:23 hi ais523 16:24:26 hi AnMaster 16:24:54 bbl 16:26:55 -!- Metcalf has joined. 16:27:47 hi Metcalf 16:28:21 Hi 16:28:49 Should I remove this from the Brainfuck wiki page, or add a note to say it doesn't work? http://max.subfighter.com/tools/brainfuck.php?subsite=eso 16:28:57 add a note to say it doesn't work 16:29:07 sometimes we try to find pages in Wayback 16:29:15 as esoprogramming links tend to break pretty quickly 16:30:03 ais523: the page hasn't disappeared. The JavaScript Brainfuck interpretter doesn't work. I think the problem is with nested loops. 16:30:33 Example should display ijk: +++[>+++++[>+++++++[>+<-]<-]<-]>>>.+.+. 16:30:37 oh, in that case all the more so say it's a non-working interp 16:30:49 I'm surprised how many non-working BF interps there are out there, actually 16:30:51 Works on this interpreter 16:30:52 given it's such a simple language 16:31:04 ^bf +++[>+++++[>+++++++[>+<-]<-]<-]>>>.+.+. 16:31:04 ijk 16:31:30 I remember a while back sampling how the BF interps linked from the esowiki that I could easily test handled EOF 16:31:49 conventional wisdom here is that 0, -1, and no-change are the only three sane values, with arguments about the merits of each 16:32:08 I came across all sorts of other values, though, like 32 and error 16:32:14 i don't think many people argue for -1 nowadays 16:32:16 so it's 0 vs no-change 16:32:35 and there are programs that work with 0 but not no-change, yet all(?) no-change programs do [-], to loop anyway 16:32:38 so 0 is prolly the best choice 16:34:11 ehird: -1 is clearly correct if you have bignum cells 16:34:26 inability to input NUL is just ridiculous 16:34:31 is that a joke? 16:34:36 no, it isn't 16:34:41 BF cells are unsigned. 16:34:47 ehird: not in bignum 16:34:53 ummmmm, yeah. 16:34:58 because you can't wrap from 0 to +infinity 16:35:08 bignum interps don't wrap. 16:35:16 they error on - at 0 16:35:17 hmm... arguably, they ought to 16:35:23 no. 16:35:26 not arguably 16:35:42 for instance, making [-] clear a cell in a bignum interp would be kind-of cleve 16:35:43 *clever 16:35:48 even if it accepted negative numbes 16:35:52 but doable, I think 16:36:05 back 16:36:07 you'd have to do a lot of converting loops to polynomials to get that to work, thuogh 16:36:55 anyway, I strongly disagree with a system which makes it possible to have a character the interpreter is incapable of reading 16:37:10 which is an argument for no-change on bignum I suppose 16:37:19 because you could set the cell to 0x110000 or something before reading 16:37:24 even though that would take a while 16:38:12 -!- Metcalf has changed nick to impomatic. 16:40:04 ais523, you could do it another way: out-of-band signaling? 16:40:14 AnMaster: in Brainfuck? 16:40:18 you'd have to redefine the language spec 16:40:27 ais523, yes indeed 16:40:35 I agree that might make sense for a new language, but not for a language as established as BF 16:40:37 you have input store error code in one cell above 16:45:08 molchuvka: the fuel that powers the steam engine that creates nightmares 16:45:15 2007-10-03 16:45:30 ah, delving into the history of #esoteric 16:45:37 yeah, I do this a lot. 16:45:37 back when someone had stolen ehird's nick 16:45:43 it's more fun than the present-day #esoteric :P 16:45:44 the memories 16:46:01 hmm... I need to finish Underlambda sometime 16:46:08 and start the Great Esolang Compilation Project 16:46:20 mm 16:46:28 ais523 : EsCo? 16:46:33 funny thing is... 16:46:37 Slereah: no, that's just to interpret things 16:46:38 This channel was similar to how it is now in 2002-2003. 16:46:43 Not actual esolang discussion. 16:46:49 Just a few active people talking about random crap. 16:46:54 I want a project that can compile any esolang into any other, as long as they're both TC 16:47:00 I resemble that remark >:| 16:47:18 and write an interp for any esolang in any other, why not 16:47:42 if you have the compilers themself written in an esolang, you need just the one interp and you can combine it with a couple of compilers to get an anything-to-anything interp 16:47:44 I love how in 2002 lament set the topic to "this channel is not dead aummmmmmmmm" 16:47:46 or something 16:47:53 and yet it only gets more active over time 16:47:53 ais523 : Wouldn't that priject be gigantic? 16:47:58 Slereah: pretty much 16:47:59 Or do you just mean the big esolands? 16:48:08 I'll start with the famous ones, I think 16:48:11 Also I can't type today 16:48:22 maybe make a generic BF-equivalent-compiler, that would handle half of them 16:54:15 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 16:55:58 Error(461): #twitter Unable to update @replies. Twitter Fail Whale. 16:55:59 >:( 16:56:48 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:01:06 Does anyone know what the smallest bf quine is? 17:01:37 impomatic: the null string 17:01:40 I'm not sure what it is without cheating 17:03:22 dbc's 17:03:24 prolly 17:03:36 http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/392quine.b 17:03:42 is that the shortest possible, or just the shortest known? 17:03:49 shortest known 17:04:01 "(392 may be the shortest real one known)" -http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/ 17:06:15 Thanks :-) 17:14:45 -!- oklopol has joined. 17:33:06 Revised bf interpreter in Redcode http://impomatic.blogspot.com/2009/01/brainf-interpreter-in-redcode.html 17:33:37 someone should implement my add-jump-if-overflow :P 17:33:44 * ehird digs up spec 17:34:03 one operation: 17:34:13 a b -- Add the contents of a to the contents of b, and store the result in b. If this caused an overflow, skip the next instruction. 17:34:23 how does it do backwards jumps? 17:34:30 special memory locations: 2=input 3=output 1=maximum int (4294967295) 0=ip 17:34:36 ais523: overflow the ip 17:34:50 impomatic: probably not very useful for actual CoreWars games, but it's always nice to have esolang-in-esolang implementations 17:35:06 how does it handle EOF, by the way? 17:37:42 I'd have to check, I think there's a problem with the Redcode interpreter. When it reaches EOF, I think it continues to wait for a character. 17:37:57 ah, ok 17:38:05 sometimes underlying IO issues are impossible to work aruond 17:38:08 *around 17:38:26 I've actually been trying to design an IO system for Underlambda which is general enough to compile easily into anything 17:38:36 hmm... I have to go but I'll be back soon, need to go to a different connection 17:38:42 -!- ais523 has quit ("mibbit.com: going to a different computer"). 17:45:02 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:46:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:47:02 wb me 17:47:48 SECURITY DO NOT LOCK THIS DOOR, IT IS WORKING CORRECTLY 17:51:06 ais523, moved where? 17:52:03 AnMaster: to what appeared to be a storage place for not-in-use signs 17:52:11 so presumably that Door has started malfunctioning again 17:52:22 the other one seems to be working, but now has about 3 brand new control panels around it 17:54:17 ais523, how hard can door be... 17:54:26 exactly 17:54:41 well of course it depends on what material it is made of ;P 17:54:42 this is one of the main amusements in the constant tale of the Doors 17:55:00 AnMaster: don't explain that, I got it first time 17:55:05 great! 17:55:25 ais523, anyway there is more than one door with issues? 17:55:48 yes, there are two doors 17:55:50 and they've both had issues 17:55:59 there is a third door which doesn't but we're not allowed to use 17:56:03 no other doors at the place has issues? 17:56:07 ais523: start a blog about the doors! 17:56:14 :p 17:56:17 also why aren't you allowed to use the third one? 17:56:18 AnMaster: well, it's just external doors here 17:56:22 from inside to outside 17:56:41 AnMaster: they thought that having too many usable doors for entering and leaving was a security risk 17:56:57 ais523, they key word here I feel is "usable" 17:57:14 heh 17:57:21 they did have to open up the third one for a while 17:57:25 just because the other two had gone so mad 17:57:32 but that was a while ago now 17:57:42 ais523, the third one continued working even when they opened it up? 17:58:00 the third one's been working all along 17:58:07 normally they set it to lock itself permanently, though, nowadays 17:58:08 ais523, so make it the primary? 17:58:11 but when they set it to do something else, it works 17:58:16 and it's in an awkward place to be the primary 17:58:20 oh 17:58:32 also did you say "three control panels"+ 17:58:34 ? 17:58:54 yes 17:58:56 why more than one I wonder... 17:59:04 because the first two didn't work? 17:59:11 actually, I suspect one of them is actually for the air conditioning 17:59:15 well if all three were brand new 17:59:17 and it's just coincidence that it's next to the Door 17:59:18 oh right 17:59:21 but why spoil a good story? 17:59:27 good point 18:01:31 -!- Corun has joined. 18:13:13 graue used to have a very short fuse 18:13:15 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Stux&diff=2936&oldid=2935 18:14:12 I remember that incident 18:14:36 the category policy is pretty stupid 18:14:41 it's a wiki... 18:14:46 also, how rare to see an IP where all the numbers are less than 99? 18:14:59 hm? 18:15:08 look at the next edit 18:15:13 which is Stux's reply 18:15:17 from IP because he was blocked at the time 18:15:19 ah, neat 18:16:53 graue calmed down after a bit, anywya 18:16:56 *anyway 18:17:10 apparently the block was just to prevent the person causing any more damage before they saw the message telling them to stop 18:17:23 and well-intentioned edits are sometimes blocked for the same reason in Wikipedia itself 18:17:30 when someone isn't communicating 18:18:43 it wasn't damage, though. 18:18:43 :P 18:19:19 it was from graue's point of view though, I think 18:19:42 editing pages on a wiki is kind-of different from changing the set of pages that exist 18:19:51 even though those are both considered fair game to tinker with on most wikis 18:20:01 presumably graue wanted people to change the first but not the second 18:20:22 meh. he's inactive enough for that policy to be irrelevant nowadays 18:21:28 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:23:31 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:47:19 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 19:00:58 -!- jix has joined. 19:06:59 ais523, there? 19:07:24 can you explain wtf is up with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Erard_double_pilot_action.svg I just see a "transparency grid" there 19:07:32 let me check 19:07:39 full size works and so does thumbnail in articles 19:07:53 AnMaster: well to confuse the issue, it works for me too 19:08:01 visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Erard_double_pilot_action.svg?action=purge 19:08:04 does that work? 19:08:09 ais523, no it didn't help 19:08:11 already tried that 19:08:18 ok, that is strange 19:08:33 do a browser cache reset? 19:08:35 ais523, I'm not logged in, I don't have any account, could that affect 19:08:39 it's control-F5 in firefox and IE 19:08:42 and I tried ctrl-shift-r 19:08:45 ok 19:08:59 cache reset and purge, and it isn't working for you but it is for me? 19:09:02 that's really odd 19:09:16 ais523, ok now it suddenly works the fifth time or so... 19:09:24 AnMaster: I just purged it 19:09:40 and as purging is for all users, possibly my purge affected it for you 19:09:42 ais523, maybe non-logged in can't purge? 19:09:52 AnMaster: they can, but there's a click-through 19:09:53 even though I clicked yes 19:09:55 I wasn't logged in either 19:09:58 ais523, I did click that 19:14:09 * ais523 just found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_falling 19:14:23 the theory that gravity is incorrect, and some intelligent being causes things to fall 19:15:14 What about things that don't fall? 19:15:14 ... maybe the flying spaghetti monster? 19:15:26 who knows/ 19:16:07 Balloons are of the devil 19:16:21 Especially devil shaped balloon 19:19:47 hmm... it seems useless use of cat has evolved 19:19:54 cat "216.34.181.45 slashdot.org" >> /etc/hosts 19:20:23 embarrassingly it took me a moment to spot what was wrong with that 19:24:45 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:24:48 what the fuck 19:25:17 (me too) 19:25:36 what's the wrong? 19:25:41 cat should be echo 19:25:42 ofc, there is a command that does just that, it just isn't cat 19:25:45 ais523: you missed the previous line 19:25:50 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:25:58 echo "127.0.0.1 slashdot.org" >"216.34.181.45 slashdot.org" 19:25:59 ehird: didn't miss, messages crossed due to IRC and typing lag 19:26:05 no 19:26:07 the previous line of the post 19:26:08 :P 19:26:13 ehird: the post didn't say that 19:26:21 what is humour 19:26:23 although someone did comment on the fact that it might just be an oddly named file 19:26:32 i don't understand, what is this humour you speak of 19:26:34 i mean, jokes?? what 19:26:43 indeed what are they? 19:27:06 tell me ehird! 19:27:08 (or not) 19:27:09 it's funny because it's true. 19:27:31 ehird: your joke just wasn't funny 19:27:42 ehird, does this imply that anything that is true is funny? 19:27:45 better than AnMaster's, ais523 19:27:50 AnMaster: no. 19:45:10 ehird, also i wasn't making any joke here 19:45:31 I was being sarcastic however 19:45:45 * ais523 vaguely wonders if the 18 minute delay in AnMaster's comment was due to looking up an internet joke-funniness-meter 19:45:52 there must be one in existence by now 19:46:00 some way to tell if something is funny or not automatically 19:46:09 bayes 19:46:31 ais523, no because I was afk 19:46:31 ehird: you should so try that 19:46:40 looking for a CD with classical music 19:46:40 the training would be rather tedious. 19:46:41 also, try with multiple sets of training data 19:46:46 rated by different people 19:47:02 actually, I could just feed it everything AnMaster has ever said in here as unfunny 19:47:10 that'd probably work well enough 19:47:26 ... 19:47:38 I rest my case 19:47:59 ehird, {{pov}} 19:48:31 I like how you're proving my joke 19:48:34 AnMaster: {{tl|pov}}'s a block rather than inline template (at least it was last I looked), so you can't place it after a comma 19:48:49 at least, not without formatting weirdness 19:49:05 ais523, ah, well I don't edit much wikipedia. there is one that is inline however 19:49:46 {{POV-statement}} it seems 19:49:48 AnMaster: {{tl|pov-statement}}, apparently 19:49:54 ais523, tl? 19:50:03 AnMaster: for mentioning a template rather than using it 19:50:12 tl| is basically the quote mark for template 19:50:14 ais523, and why are you doing that on irc... 19:50:16 or tlx| if it takes arguments 19:50:22 AnMaster: because the joke doesn't work otherwise 19:50:37 ais523, I wasn't aware of this feature on wikipedia 19:50:46 AnMaster: it isn't a feature, it's just another template 19:50:53 which takes template names as arguments 19:50:58 and returns the markup used to call that template 19:51:27 you don't use it in articles, but it's pretty common on discussion pages (and often substed there, btw) 19:51:34 mhm 19:51:52 why all that substing btw? 19:52:04 to subst or not to subst tl is a huge argument 19:52:13 and I can't even remember the arguments now, it's been so long ago 19:52:17 since I last went over them 19:52:17 mhm 19:52:40 especially as half the arguments made on that particular debate tended to be wrong or irrelevant 19:52:55 there is no performance gain if the system is properly designed (ie, cache pre-rendered pages) 19:53:06 and that is about the only argument for I can think of 19:53:24 performance was one argument 19:53:36 and actually there is, it makes the templatelinks table smaller, but people were arguing about whether that was relevant or not 19:53:54 also, pages are edited often enough on Wikipedia that once-per-edit costs are certainly potentially relevant 19:53:56 did anyone profile it? 19:54:02 AnMaster: I don't think so 19:54:05 it's hard to profile a live website. 19:54:11 that you don't have shell access to. 19:54:13 but see [[WP:AUM]] if you're interested in the history 19:54:15 that was about something else 19:54:16 without disrupting. 19:54:19 but it was a similar argument 19:54:28 well you could run a db dump and then re-run some edit history 19:54:33 with/without subst 19:54:49 ... 19:54:57 there was also 19:55:08 ehird, 1) db dumps are public 2) that includes edit history 19:55:09 which was an alleged non-POV version of AUM which some people still think was biased 19:55:17 no shit, AnMaster 19:55:24 that wasn't why I ...ed 19:55:25 thus it shouldn't be that hard 19:55:35 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 19:55:40 and then 19:58:15 and then, see for the followup 19:58:23 mhm 19:58:33 and there was an amusing but only vaguely related incident some time later when an admin deleted the Main Page by mistake 19:58:53 ais523, ouch ouch ouch 19:59:00 you can restore that right? 19:59:08 you can restore anything 19:59:24 mhm 19:59:25 unless it was deleted before the deleted revisions archive got deleted by mistake, and that was ages ago 20:00:00 ais523, what about images? 20:00:10 they have deleted revision archives too 20:00:19 didn't until recently iirc? 20:00:23 I think so 20:00:32 it's a feature new enough that I was there when it was added 20:06:02 ais523, anyway about archive being deleted by mistake, that mean some with direct sql access and missing backups? 20:08:07 AnMaster: I think it was lost in a crash 20:08:18 ais523, missing backups then 20:52:31 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:58:37 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:07:14 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 21:17:27 -!- Corun has joined. 21:22:25 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 21:30:48 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 21:35:45 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:35:49 -!- puzzlet has joined. 21:36:02 -!- impomatic has quit ("http://impomatic.blogspot.com"). 21:37:47 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:39:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:43:06 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:47:51 i don't think (h) belongs there. the others actually happen regularly. (h) fortunately does not. 21:48:26 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page; h) 4chan. 21:48:32 Now it more accurately represents this place. 21:48:45 what was it before? 21:48:54 hm i haven't really noticed much 4chan. reddit, however... 21:48:55 a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page; h) Felching – The Freshmaker! 21:49:04 reddit is a copy of 4chan a year ago :p 21:49:09 Slereah is responsible for most of the 4chan tbh 21:49:14 ah 21:49:19 but I have my suspicions about some people around here. 21:49:24 i may not recognize it... 21:49:38 what about esoteric languages? 21:49:44 they *do* happen sometimes 21:49:52 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-k9C3v9Ng0 21:49:56 AnMaster: no 21:50:00 that is explicitly not an element of this place 21:50:06 (d) and (g) cover that somewhat 21:50:06 and basically the whole joke of the topic 21:50:11 ehird, yes, ick, ccbi and so on 21:50:14 those are just convenient links, oerjan 21:50:19 AnMaster: no. esolangs is not a topic discussed here. 21:51:07 * oerjan shouldn't complain, given how many times he's reverted people trying to remove perl from the wiki :D 21:51:38 * AnMaster wants a complete collection of Mozart, wonder how many CDs it would fill... 21:51:44 AnMaster: too many. 21:51:53 also, you'd never be able to listen to it all. probably. 21:52:07 ehird, well I listen to about 1 classical music CD / day 21:52:20 I bet mozart would fill like 50 bajillion cds :-P 21:52:28 Assuming we're talking everything mozart ever wrote. 21:52:30 i expect you could get Oz/Mozart on a single CD ;D 21:52:41 Oz/Mozart? 21:52:46 oerjan: man 21:52:48 that was awful 21:52:50 even for you 21:52:56 i mean, raelly 21:52:56 it was a joke? 21:52:58 it wasn't even funny 21:52:58 jesus 21:53:01 I didn't understand it 21:53:02 ... 21:53:04 yay :D 21:53:10 AnMaster: letmegooglethatforyou.com 21:53:11 so 21:53:24 "The Mozart Programming System"? 21:53:27 first hit 21:53:30 no. some other oz/mozart. 21:53:31 duh. 21:53:50 indeed 21:54:02 sarcasm detected 21:54:12 wow, you actually have a sarcasm detector 21:54:17 now that's legitimately surprising :D 21:54:24 ehird: he _is_ slowly improving you know 21:54:27 ehird, well it isn't very sensitive 21:54:50 a couple more years on #esoteric and AnMaster could start doing standup 21:54:58 that's a bit optimistic 21:55:07 oerjan, no thanks, I wouldn't want that 21:55:17 GregorR: holy shit that video is depressing. 21:55:20 + I have "scenskräck", don't know English word 21:55:22 and I'm only 2:30 in. 21:55:27 AnMaster: Scene crack? 21:55:31 ehird, nop 21:55:34 Sense crack? 21:55:45 ehird: I know X-D 21:55:51 ehird, as in scared to be in front of a large audience 21:55:54 ehird: It's so well done in a horrible, horrible way. 21:55:57 GregorR: WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO ME 21:56:18 what is the English term? 21:56:39 AnMaster: I don't think there is one 21:56:50 wtf 21:57:00 agoraphobia is related 21:57:03 but not quite 21:57:30 haha at google translate "scene of horror" <--- no. not at all 21:57:40 GregorR: oh my god. I think you just ruined my life forever. 21:57:45 I hate you. 21:57:47 :( 21:57:53 ehird, well right I'm not going to watch that video then 21:58:00 X-D 21:58:03 AnMaster: It's about a cartoon rabbit. He dies. 21:58:17 oh, doesn't sound too bad, unless it is bloody 21:58:31 Watch Watership Down then 21:58:34 :D 21:58:50 AnMaster: It will ruin your life forever. 21:58:57 Slereah, I explicitly don't trust what you say. ever. 21:59:06 AnMaster: It's not bloody, it's not even violent. 21:59:12 AnMaster: It's just really, really sad :P 21:59:35 well too much work using youtube-dl and so on 21:59:43 AnMaster : You should 21:59:48 You are safe, AnMaster. 21:59:49 'cause Watership Down is totally awesome 21:59:52 You can still feel happiness. 22:00:03 Shed a tear for those lost to that video. 22:00:12 also, have anyone here ever heard about the composer Kraus before? 22:00:14 Just wondering 22:00:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watership_Down_(film) 22:00:42 ooh found it: "stage fright" 22:01:00 oerjan, yes that sounds right 22:01:40 You know, I think I support internet censorship. We need to protect the human race from that video. 22:02:04 * oerjan searched http://phobialist.com/ . it was not a keyword, but part of a description. 22:02:28 Phobophobia- Fear of phobias. 22:02:30 "Use Manipulative Psychology to Make People Like, Respect, and Befriend You" 22:02:42 -http://www.thepopularlife.com 22:02:45 ehird, ouch, don't you see, the pro-censor people made this to make people want to censor the internet 22:02:47 clearly 22:02:54 so devilish! 22:02:57 AnMaster: It destroys lives. We cannot accept this. 22:03:02 Think of the goddamn children. :'( 22:03:21 ehird, well their parents shouldn't let them enter on youtube 22:03:35 parent control thing you know ;P 22:03:40 I think compared to that video the rest of youtube is fine by me :P 22:03:43 I think up until 15 maybe 22:03:48 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:03:50 I'm only glad I didn't click the HD version 22:03:53 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:03:58 I think the high quality would have destroyed my brain 22:04:05 On the other hand, that's better than my permanent torment. 22:04:23 Phobophobia- Fear of phobias. <-- does that exist? 22:04:40 Metaphobia. 22:04:45 It says in the list on that page 22:04:49 oh ok 22:05:04 what about a phobia against not having a complete list of phobias? 22:05:48 Nothavingacompletelistofphobiasphhobia 22:05:52 *Nothavingacompletelistofphobiasphobia 22:06:08 something like that probably yes 22:06:16 but too English 22:06:23 you want Latin and/or Greek 22:06:24 oh wait 22:06:34 Google translate to the rescue! 22:07:32 guess it doesn't have latin 22:08:20 It has greek, but it gives you greek letters (how surprising) 22:09:02 FireFly, and that is modern greek I believe 22:09:12 * oerjan invents apanphobophobia 22:09:18 swatterphobi 22:09:18 Could be, I know.. 0 greek 22:09:19 a 22:09:53 a = not, pan = all 22:10:10 We should use lojban affixes to make these. 22:11:06 Fear of dogs, ge'uphobia. Fear of abruptness, suksyphobia. Fear of milk, ladryphobia. 22:11:28 Apandaphobia = not basing your entire life on fear or something :P (Not all from fear) 22:12:07 is da greek? 22:12:17 It's a corruption of "de" :P 22:12:33 is de greek? 22:12:53 Just because "phobia" is greek doesn't mean the prefix can't be latin, we're not speaking either. 22:13:07 Pandaphobia = fear of pandas 22:13:14 GregorR's is therefore fear of a lack of pandas 22:13:23 Apandaphobia = fear of no pandas ? 22:13:24 NUH UH 22:13:26 i was just about to claim that 22:13:27 Dyspandaphobia: fear of difficulty with pandas. 22:13:29 It's the lack of the fear of pandas :P 22:13:33 Bleh 22:13:39 Actually, I was--yes, what GregorR said. 22:13:54 pandanandaphobia 22:14:06 Panda NAND a phobia 22:14:07 Bandabananaphobia 22:14:10 So you're about to say something, when someone else says something similar, and then another person says they were about to say the same thing, and then another person says they were about to say the thing you were about to say. 22:14:13 sounds like a surrealist programming comic. 22:14:35 badnyphobia, fear of bananas. 22:14:50 And/or bad nys. 22:14:52 kerlo: clearly it was an idea whose time was come 22:15:40 badny? is that more lojban? 22:15:42 xralisphobia, fear of comic strips. 22:15:46 badny is lojban, yes. 22:16:17 Englishprefixaphobia, fear of words with prefixes from English (rather than Greek or Latin) 22:16:20 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:16:50 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:18:15 Calorimeteraphobia: Fear of words formed from irrelevant roots or prefixes. 22:18:43 Lojbanophobia, self explaining 22:18:55 Fear of large bananas, of course. 22:19:00 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 22:19:03 You mean gicli'erafyphobia. 22:19:18 (English-precede-affix-phobia.) 22:19:42 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:20:00 And you mean jbophobia, of course, jbo being the lojban affix. :-P 22:20:47 Phobaphobaphobaphobaphobia: Fear of the fear of the fear of fear of fear. 22:21:33 is de greek? .de is German.... 22:21:49 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----### 22:22:13 oerjan, it went right through without hitting anything 22:22:37 rooseveltophobia: the fear of nothing but fear itself 22:22:49 GregorR: The only thing to fear is the fear of the fear of the fear of the fear of fear itself. 22:22:50 dammit oerjan 22:23:04 oerjan, um what? wouldn't it be the fear of meeting roosevelt? 22:23:15 FAIL 22:23:26 AnMaster: Nej, han är ju død. 22:23:29 that's a roosevelt quote 22:23:55 oerjan, ja, jag skulle nog vara rädd att möta honom just därför! 22:24:21 Fear of the fear of fear of fear of the fear of fear of the fear of the fear of fear of inconsistency. 22:24:37 I suggest a notation for that 22:24:45 AnMaster: you're supposed to say "Men han rör ju på sej!" 22:24:52 you have basic phobias, I mean fear of snakes, fear or whatever 22:25:05 then you have fear of fear of snakes, and so on 22:25:07 this would be: 22:25:09 Sing it to the tune of "Clocks" by Coldplay: fear of the fear of the fear of fear of the fear of the fear of... 22:25:13 It's called language, AnMaster 22:25:13 phobia^2 22:25:16 Hexakosioihexekontahexaphobia — fear of the number 666. 22:25:24 kerlo: That would involve listening to Coldplay. 22:25:28 I really don't want to do that. 22:25:42 actually phobophobophobophobia _clearly_ means fear of recursion 22:26:02 oerjan, yes and fear of fear of recursion is? 22:26:16 Much simpler in lojban: xavyxavyxavyphobia = fear of 666. 22:26:23 AnMaster: too horrible to contemplate. 22:26:27 oerjan: psykfall 22:26:29 Lojban uses decimal. Why. :( 22:26:35 if that is readable in no 22:26:36 It doesn't have to use decimal. 22:26:38 .no* 22:26:47 I think decimal is default, but xa can be 6 in any base. 22:26:49 AnMaster: no idea what psykfall means 22:26:54 It even has words for the digits A-F. 22:26:57 Decimal sux diks 22:27:35 oerjan, well it is slang.... "nutjob" I believe the English slang would be 22:27:48 candlejackpho 22:27:50 actually no 22:28:07 oerjan: haha 22:28:09 psykfall implies someone locked in too 22:28:23 I mean, VERY much nutjob 22:28:28 how do you do pure function O(1) dictionaries? 22:28:48 nagjibyphobia, fear of nut jobs. 22:29:06 Hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia- Fear of long words. 22:29:10 bsmntbombgirl: by implementing trivial pattern matching as a hash table 22:29:21 ? 22:29:35 bsmntbombgirl, with a perfect hash I guess 22:29:51 I believe gainovaivaireirei ju'u paxa is lojban for 0xC0FFEE. 22:30:33 bsmntbombgirl: as in 22:30:40 f 0 = 1; f 1 = 45345345; f 2 = 892748396; 22:30:48 should be implemented as a hash table from {0:1,...} in the lang 22:31:09 well that doesn't work 22:31:13 why not 22:31:57 what's the table containing all the values from 1 to n, n determined at runtime 22:32:15 lazy evaluation :P 22:32:41 ehird: what would you use, sexagesimal? 22:32:49 Say, have there been attempts to interpret the nick "kerlo" as a subtle hint that I'm a transwoman? 22:32:58 kerlo: I think so. 22:33:04 Asztal: duodecimal or something. It's meant to be perfect :-P 22:33:38 oh, 12 is good too 22:33:58 kerlo, um? I googled the nick just now and first hit was some starwars wiki 22:34:30 no I don't see what you mean 22:35:00 *shrug* 22:35:01 night 22:39:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("godnatt på er, folk"). 22:46:46 Consensus is that the nick "Warrigal" was by far the most explicit. 22:48:43 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 22:49:13 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:39:06 WHAT THE CHRIST. [[WP:DICK]] was turned into a soft redirect. 23:39:07 Fuckers 23:43:55 you mean it went soft? 23:45:42 groan 23:53:58 http://svn.python.org/view?rev=68924&view=rev OH YEAH. 23:54:01 OH FUCKING YEAH. 23:54:05 Python 3.0 SPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDD 23:54:26 Or rather, still slow :-P BUT STILL 23:55:11 An Exception Has Occurred 23:55:12 Python Traceback 23:55:15 [stuff] 23:55:24 WFM 2009-01-26: 00:08:06 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:21:21 FAIL: 00:21:23 the halting problem can be solved trivially on a machne without time or memory constraints 00:21:27 from 2007 00:22:15 lofl 00:22:35 he then clarifies that he was talking about an FSM. 00:22:43 because it's not as if the halting problem refers to turing machines or anything. 00:23:02 well he was right then 00:23:50 no, because "halting problem" means "turing machine halting problem" 00:23:51 :p 00:24:01 since ther eis no such problem on a FSM 00:24:01 well not really 00:24:09 "no such problem?" 00:24:57 sure, halt-checking an FSM on a turing machine is trivial. 00:25:02 you just check for repeated states. 00:25:26 what about push downs? 00:25:38 I was talking about FSMs. 00:26:17 i know 00:26:25 and i was going to bring up push downs 00:27:34 ehird: actually the halting problem for lower complexity classes is somewhat important. for one thing, it gives an easy way to prove that there _are_ an infinite hierarchy of such classes. 00:27:34 Sneaky. 00:27:48 oerjan: we were discussing turing machine halting problems at the time, tho. 00:28:40 oerjan: so is it doable for push-down automatons? 00:28:59 er 00:30:39 not sure, i'm not used to think of those as potentially non-halting 00:33:59 since they are usually combined with parsing, for which the important thing is which languages they recognize 00:34:27 any non-halting would have to happen _between_ two input chars (or at the ends) 00:37:39 the recognized languages are context-free, so contained in the context-sensitive ones, which can be recognized in linear space 00:39:32 if you can do that on the level of computation, then a little more than linear space should be sufficient to solve the halting problem. 00:42:40 http://www.cse.ohio-state.edu/~gurari/theory-bk/theory-bk-threese6.html: "Theorem 3.6.3 The halting problem is decidable for pushdown automata." 00:46:54 bsmntbombgirl: so apparently, yes 00:52:16 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:54:15 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:03:37 so what's a language that uses a pda? 01:04:10 context-free, i said 01:04:23 (non-deterministic pda) 01:04:44 i mean, programming language 01:06:32 well befunge without self-modification 01:07:36 because it would be interesting to see how useful a language for which the halting problem is solvable is 01:08:45 oh and no deep stack operations in case befunge has that (i forget) 01:10:42 i don't think you could use it to add two bignums in ordinary decimal notation, say 01:11:20 yeah you could 01:11:22 although bizarrely if you reversed the second number, you could print the reverse result :D 01:11:35 huh? 01:11:36 exactly 01:11:53 won't work for multiplication though 01:13:36 but a stack machine can reverse its input 01:14:05 yeah 01:17:05 so change it to a sequence of stack machines 01:17:13 because the halting problem is still solvable there 01:21:18 hm true 01:23:58 BF-PDA is a PDA. 02:25:08 not a good one 02:27:42 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 02:33:40 Kipple is a PDA if you only use one stack :P 02:35:21 -!- GregorR has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page; h) Felching – The 4chanmaker!. 02:47:36 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 02:56:31 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 03:05:34 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 03:13:35 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:38:53 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 03:56:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:26:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:06:28 -!- MizardX has quit ("reboot"). 05:09:23 G'night all 05:09:48 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:10:53 -!- MizardX has joined. 05:31:46 -!- lament has changed nick to lamente. 07:05:13 -!- jix has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:16:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 08:25:33 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 08:36:33 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:55:35 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 10:24:09 -!- oklopol has joined. 10:25:32 so i drop my laptop 10:25:41 and a few programs vanish 10:26:00 possible? no. happened? fuck yeah. 10:49:39 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:25:19 SimonRC: You've just commited a grave logical fallacy: Argumentum ad Paul Graham. 11:25:21 {2007-08-08} 11:41:04 Who is paul graham 11:41:48 You will be happier not knowing. 11:42:00 No I'm not 11:42:29 No, seriously 11:43:23 Fine, I'll google it 11:43:46 "Paul Graham (born 1964) is a programmer, venture capitalist, and essayist, known for his work on Lisp." 11:43:48 That dude, I assume 11:43:54 Why is he so terrible 11:46:08 It's kind of complicated. 11:49:04 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 11:51:20 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:32:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 12:55:48 10:56:12 "I enjoy doing thing spontaneously." <<< thing is a character in addam's family 12:55:48 10:56:19 it's a hand10:56:24 does this refer to masturbation? 12:55:55 {2007-08-09} 12:59:29 i lolled 13:13:09 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:29:44 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:12:38 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 14:31:31 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 14:43:44 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:30:01 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:43:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:43:54 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:40:12 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:45:48 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:57:09 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 17:12:25 -!- impomatic has joined. 17:13:26 ^bf ++++++++++++++[>>+>++>+++>++>+++<<[++++<]<-]>>>>>[+++<]>-.>>.+++++++..+++.>>++.<+.<<.>.+++.------.--------.>+. 17:13:26 Hello, World! 17:13:36 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:13:38 106 :-) 17:16:27 awesome 17:16:50 impomatic: i think that's longer than it could be 17:17:07 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:18:28 Does anyone have an intricate understanding of FAT12+[N/Y/F]ASM here? 17:18:30 Hi Ehird 17:18:44 hi 17:18:50 hi 17:19:05 Hiato: FAT12 sounds like a 12-bit filesystem 17:19:10 by analogy with FAT32 17:19:13 presumably it isn't that 17:19:44 nope, shouldn't think so.. Personally I have no actual clue, just did the ole "copy-n-paste" and it failed me 17:20:03 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:21:47 It's 12 bit, I wrote code to read files from it about 15 years ago 17:22:06 But I wouldn't be much help. I only read it, never tried to manipulate it 17:22:09 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 17:25:05 Well, it's a start, so if you dig it up that would be nice :) 17:25:08 * Hiato makes puppy eyes 17:25:24 I think the write code is fine, but I can't test it until I can read :P 17:32:54 -!- oklopol has joined. 17:34:00 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Changing server..."). 17:36:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:21:01 -!- Slereah has joined. 18:33:03 -!- decipher_ has changed nick to decipher. 18:33:19 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:34:51 -!- olsner has joined. 18:40:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("hejdå"). 18:43:04 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:00:59 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:27:43 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:27:54 -!- jix has joined. 19:33:39 -!- FireFly has quit ("Brb"). 19:37:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:40:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:41:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:51:50 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:53:35 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:55:21 ^bf +++++[>+++[>>+>++>+++>+++>++>+++<<[++++<]<-]<-]>>>---.>>----.>+++..+++.>>-.<++.<<<---.>>.+++.------.<-.>>+. 19:55:21 Hello, World! 19:55:46 triple-nested loops in a BF hello world? 19:55:48 I don't see that often 19:56:43 we should make a <=50 character hello world 19:57:01 Yeah, shame it's 107 instructions and not <106 19:57:16 you can shave off an instruction 19:57:16 oklopol: go ahead :-) 19:57:17 almost certainly 19:57:26 ^bf +++++[>+++[>>+>++>+++>+++>++>+++<<[++++<]<-]<-]>>>---.>>----.>+++..+++.>>-.<++.<<<---.>.+++.------.<-.>>+. 19:57:26 Hello, WehbVp 19:57:29 hee 19:57:36 *see 19:57:42 ehird: okay, show me how :-P 19:57:50 i dunno :-D 19:58:08 anyway it isn't even a correct program right now 19:58:11 the w should be lowercase 19:58:14 does it do newlines? 19:58:18 ^bf +++++[>+++[>>+>++>+++>+++>++>+++<<[++++<]<-]<-]>>>---.>>----.>+++..+++.>>-.<++.<<<---.>>.+++.------.<-.>>+ 19:58:18 Hello, World 19:58:22 nope. 19:58:33 ehird: there are all sorts of debates about the exact spelling and punctuation of hello world 19:58:48 Hello, world!\n is the most common for human-written ones as far as I can se 19:58:49 e 19:58:51 for BF at least 19:59:03 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 19:59:16 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 19:59:45 I've seen "Hello, World!", "Hello World!\n" and "Hello, world!" 19:59:48 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive_. 20:00:02 without newline is just a bug 20:00:11 since it will fail on any correct console interpreter 20:00:16 I'm working on "Hello, World!" because that's the example someone showed me 20:00:24 mm 20:00:28 I'd go for Hello, world!\n 20:00:32 just a change of case and one new char 20:00:46 hey goys 20:01:28 HI Psygnisfive_ 20:02:20 I would go with Greetings, personified globular iron construct orbiting sol!\r 20:02:33 impomatic, you new, ey? 20:02:37 no. 20:02:40 he's been here days 20:02:46 only a few days, though 20:02:47 so yes hes new :p 20:03:30 psygnisfive_: you're new too :p 20:03:35 not that new! 20:03:41 2008-05-16 20:04:16 yeah 20:04:22 thats AGES longer! :o 20:04:32 also, im pretty sure i was actually first here in like 20:04:35 no 20:04:36 you weren't 20:04:38 ? 20:04:41 I grepped for both augur and psygnisfive 20:04:51 really? 20:04:52 hm 20:04:54 yes. 20:05:25 for the record: I first joined 2006-12-29, left like 20 seconds after, next joined (and spoke and stuff) 2007-05-14 20:05:30 stuck here since. 20:06:11 my oldest #esoteric logs are from 28 May 08 20:06:26 then you were here as a ghost. 20:06:28 what was your nick 20:06:42 -!- FireFly has joined. 20:06:48 dude, thats after your first reported sighting of me :P 20:06:56 oh. right 20:07:01 psygnisfive_: yes 20:07:02 that's your first join as augur 20:07:07 wait 20:07:07 no 20:07:10 you first joined as augur 20:07:11 on the 16th 20:07:16 then on the 27th as psygnisfive 20:07:19 08.05.27:07:36:40 --- nick: augur -> psygnisfive 20:07:26 [time zones] 20:08:38 my earliest colloquy log is from 20 May 20:08:55 so from the 16th to the 19th i was using mibbit for irc i guess 20:09:07 guys, remember faxasthisia? he was cool 20:09:16 yes, I remember 20:09:25 why did he fall off the face of the earth? 20:09:26 although not what they were like 20:09:49 i remember the nick, and that there was something worth remembering about it, but i don't remember what it was. 20:10:05 oh wait is it just that he *may have been* the guy who knew j. 20:10:26 yeah 20:10:27 he liked j 20:10:34 coooooooooool 20:11:06 he was last here 38 weeks ago 20:11:09 RIP faxathisia 20:11:17 here = freenode 20:11:50 wow, someone has a text file of ridiculous faxathisia quotes. 20:11:52 http://ross.fappett.com/misc/fax.txt 20:11:56 he never acted like that in here :P 20:14:45 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:17:52 Google provse it. 20:17:56 Faxathisia is dead. RIP. 20:19:29 lol some of those were pretty funny 20:19:58 FAXATHISIA IF YOU BE READING THIS COME BACK K 20:20:34 http://fax.twilightcoders.net/ Site of a dead man 20:20:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:22:38 universal binary 20:22:43 http://fax.twilightcoders.net/AquaBreakout/ Cute 20:23:00 a polyglot binary that ran on lots of different OSs and architectures could be interesting 20:23:07 but probably impossible due to the way ELF headers work 20:23:09 i think i shall start working on an actual interpreter for my language. :T 20:36:42 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:38:17 psygnisfive_: new here, not new to esoteric languages :-) 20:38:25 well 20:38:31 who is, when they come here 20:38:40 ive known about esolangs for like 10 yeas 20:39:54 uh huh. 20:39:59 i kind of doubt that 20:40:24 well maybe not ten but about. 20:40:38 i mean, its not like i marked it in my calendar, you know, but 20:41:06 it could easily have been 10 years. 20:41:19 i think i first discovered esolangs in yahoo's directories 20:41:40 this was before wikipedia was what it is now, obviously 20:42:02 wikipedia started in 2001. 20:42:11 your lies are revealed! 20:42:16 yeah, but i didnt know about it until like .. 2002? 20:42:22 but like i said, before wikipedia. 20:42:28 10 years ago was 1999 :p 20:42:32 thats not what you asid 20:42:38 you said before wikipedia was what it was now 20:42:40 yes 20:42:44 what it is now is.. 20:42:46 i probably learned about wp in like 2007 20:42:47 existant :) 20:42:48 thus implying the existance of wikipedia 20:42:52 at the time 20:42:58 or you would have just said, before wikipedia 20:43:01 ergo, not 10 years 20:43:02 ha 20:43:16 i actually thought wikipedia started in the late 90s 20:43:18 I discovered esolangs via the 99bob website 20:43:20 but i was probably thinking of google 20:43:25 and esolangs.org via Wikipedia via google 20:43:37 and #esoteric via esolangs.org 20:43:53 i'm pretty sure "before wp was what it is now" meant wikipedia didn't exist, with the additional "don't make smart-ass comments about it somehow technically existing in some form" 20:44:00 ais523: but I thought you could do without google. 20:44:08 I can nowadays, mostly 20:44:18 this was back before I was very internet-savvy 20:44:24 I didn't even know about IRC or Usenet back then 20:44:26 oklopol: in a way it could! 20:44:34 since wiki's have been around since 1994 20:44:36 :p 20:44:46 sure could, sure could 20:44:50 umm, 1992 wasn't it 20:44:52 i learned about #esoteric from slereah 20:44:56 I started playing with esolangs in 1993. 20:44:56 Unless Redcode counts :-) 20:44:58 eh 20:45:01 WikiWikiWeb 1994 20:45:04 redcode counts, impomatic 20:45:05 dunno about earlier 20:45:08 so when did you start then 20:45:09 redcode's more an interesting variant of asm 20:45:12 but the first site called a wiki 20:45:26 and asm would be an esolang if it wasn't so widespread 20:46:00 all this only proves that your definition of esolangs is needlessly vague and wide-spanning, ais523 20:46:05 yes, it is 20:46:21 ais is the counterbalance to me 20:46:38 since my definition is needlessly specific and narrow-spanning 20:47:24 NARROW NARROW NARROW IT DOWN, GENTLY DOWN THE STREAM 20:48:39 1991 if Redcode counts 20:49:21 lol i wasn't even alive in 91 :\ 20:49:25 My modem is apparently not connected? 20:49:28 oklopol: nor I :-D 20:49:30 Trying to connect now 20:49:31 impomatic: i hear you 20:49:46 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page; h) Felching – The 4chanmaker!; i) YOUNGUNS. 20:49:48 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page; h) Felching – The 4chanmaker!; i) YOUNG UNS. 20:49:57 young guns? 20:50:03 that is why i added the space 20:50:03 that's much worse than eurocreme... 20:50:25 now where's my notebook 20:50:34 oklopol: You're making me feel old! 20:51:10 YOU ARE OLD. :-| 20:51:21 :-/ 20:52:13 :-------| 20:52:18 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 20:53:04 mm eurocreme 20:53:04 this is like.. a, f, h, and i all at once :o 20:54:34 :-| 20:54:38 I don't think we need to know, psygnisfive_ 20:56:18 was just about to ask "what are those", but i guess ehird is right 20:56:29 20:50 ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page; h) Felching – The 4chanmaker!; i) YOUNG UNS 20:56:44 I think it's time for a new topic 20:56:49 no 20:56:51 i like this one 20:56:56 so does GregorR, since he's added to it. 20:57:02 also, i didn't even originate it, you did 20:57:04 I know 20:57:08 the first three items are yours 20:57:09 it's just got out of control 20:57:13 meh 20:57:16 it's not that long 20:57:18 o 20:57:23 remove up to the end of the wiki link, I guess 20:57:29 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. 20:58:32 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 20:58:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("hejdå"). 21:02:08 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Client Quit). 21:02:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:04:58 You could reduce it. 21:05:30 Awww, but you shouldn't have removed imne :( 21:05:42 *mine 21:08:30 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:11:02 -!- psygnisfive_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:11:17 hi ais523 21:11:22 hi 21:12:18 Anyone here got a programming blog? 21:12:48 I don't blog 21:12:48 a plog? 21:13:11 clog? 21:13:33 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:13:51 zlog 21:13:59 I do 21:15:14 Our plog is the esowiki 21:16:31 Judofyr: where? :-) 21:22:52 impomatic: http://judofyr.net 21:22:56 mostly Ruby, though 21:26:13 Esoruby 21:26:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit. 21:27:48 Judofyr: about that tail-call optimisation 21:27:55 why doesn't Ruby have that tail-recursion operator from Perl? 21:27:58 goto &procedure; 21:28:12 it's one of my favourites! 21:28:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:28:48 ais523: nope :/ 21:40:12 -!- FireFly has joined. 21:41:15 -!- Corun has joined. 21:42:56 hi Judofyr 21:43:04 * ehird blogs, but doesn't atm. :-P 21:43:59 i can't blog, because i dislike the term :< 21:44:04 i would otherwise. 21:44:11 call it a web log 21:44:16 or just a 'log 21:44:16 haha 21:44:24 okolog 21:44:30 og 21:45:37 yes 21:45:39 call it an og 21:45:45 ög 21:45:48 * ehird bookmarks http://vjn.fi/oklopol/og/ pre-emptively 21:45:52 hehe 21:46:17 guess i could og my reading diary....... that would pretty much sum up my life. 21:46:26 also, oko towers. 21:46:27 that is, publish thems.rtf. 21:46:46 i would totally pay you to maintain an html page with date-attached oko towers and reading log entries. 21:46:53 it'd be like. the oko shrine 21:47:00 the ogo shrine hur hur 21:47:11 hmm 21:47:22 yeah, maybe it could be an og about oko. 21:47:37 liek jib down the oko aspects of my life. 21:48:12 yeah, exactly 21:48:14 like 21:48:40 2009-01-26
Today I made an oko so big it crashed the IRC server.

21:48:49 just thrilling 21:49:02 * AnMaster sneaks in a few / there 21:49:09 crashing Freenode with an oko would be impressive 21:49:15 it would effectively have to be a DDOS oko 21:49:28 ais523, permanent kline ;P 21:49:31 AnMaster: I think you should stop provoking me to give you the full rant on why XHTML lovers are idiots. 21:50:02 ehird: that common maxim that you keep quoting, I suspect is dangerous 21:50:09 ehird, simple: If I loved html you would love xhtml instead ;P 21:50:27 if everyone's being liberal in what they accept, then people with an agenda can be liberal in what they produce 21:50:40 AnMaster: fun fact: I have had opinions before I unfortunately met you. 21:50:47 in XHTML, it's the people who don't know what they're doing that look like idiots 21:50:49 ais523: Postel's Law isn't the whole argument by far. 21:50:59 ais523, agreed 21:51:00 Also, people with an agenda being liberal in what they produce... 21:51:03 will change what, exactly? 21:52:17 it will change the standard 21:52:25 as other people will have to conform to their liberal productions 21:52:31 rather than other people's liberal prodcutions 21:52:33 *productions 21:52:59 You misunderstand Postel's Law, but I'm not having this conversation atm. 21:54:41 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:55:53 people with an agenda? 21:56:02 gays 21:56:07 can you translate that, i do not understand natural language. 21:56:23 Slereah: ohh. that i grok 22:02:33 -!- impomatic has quit ("http://impomatic.blogspot.com"). 22:02:56 http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Uncyclopedia:An_Appeal_From_Uncyclopedia_Mother%2C_Codeine%27s_Mum 22:04:07 what's %2C? 22:04:12 %27 is apostrophe, IIRC 22:04:21 , 22:09:29 Don't go to uncyclopedia, ehird 22:09:32 It is terrible 22:09:33 i don't. 22:09:46 the idiot m p darke linked to it. But I found the linked article, linked to in the header of the linked article, funny. 22:09:52 was that sufficiently confusing 22:10:03 I think one of the only times I went to Uncyclopedia was because someone had copied one of their articles over to Wikipedia 22:10:22 and people kept removing deletion tags from it 22:10:37 so I marked it copyvio 22:10:41 which it was 22:10:51 yay for incompatible licences 22:39:47 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:43:26 "Paul Graham (born 1964) is a programmer, venture capitalist, and essayist, known for his work on Lisp." 22:43:39 Why is he so terrible 22:43:59 iiuc he is essentially a lisp fundamentalist 22:44:24 no 22:44:26 he's just an idiot 22:44:27 although i haven't paid that much attention to him 22:45:46 ehird: i _might_ claim that follows as a consequence, if he is a fundamentalist 22:46:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("godnatt"). 22:47:06 s/fundamentalist/fanatic/ if the first word doesn't actually fit 22:49:34 lisp is singularity 22:49:36 lisp is origin 22:50:04 LISP HAS SEXUAL PEE 22:50:05 http://xkcd.com/224/ 22:50:17 (obligatory link) 22:50:36 old 22:50:39 (obligatory line) 22:51:17 (well, obligatory joke) 22:59:35 -!- ais523 has quit. 23:13:35 0xFF bottles of beer on the wall 23:13:37 0xFF bottles of beer 23:13:39 Take one down, two's complement it 23:13:41 Error segfault 23:14:16 wait what 23:14:35 why is 0 a segfault? 23:14:50 or is there a size problem? 23:15:25 and how do we reverse entropy? 23:15:38 (last one thrown in just in case) 23:15:57 ... "two's complement" is not a verb ... 23:16:13 i think it verbs just fine 23:16:34 Then what does it mean? There's no action that's "two's complement"ing a ... number? Stream of bits? 23:18:41 it whats a meaning of calculating the two's complement. stop complainingly mindlessing. 23:19:30 probably in-placing it, too 23:24:11 GregorR: I don't care, it amuses me. 23:24:19 (It's from the 2007 logs, said by me) 23:26:49 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 23:44:09 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:57:38 GregorR: i think you just lack a skill in an english. 23:58:04 oklopol: i sentiment exactly 23:58:30 i think i should probably book a read 23:58:52 also, since finnish doesn't have articles, would those be reasonable mistakes for a finn to make? 23:58:54 concatenative languages are awesome 2009-01-27: 00:00:27 -!- FireFly has quit ("Brb IRL"). 00:00:32 oerjan: finns tend to drop articles, and occasionally swap a/an. i don't think "an english" could ever happen. 00:00:43 the english maybe 00:01:20 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:01:25 ofc there's no such thing as a reasonable mistake 00:03:59 i want to make a graphical programming language :| 00:04:11 not only based on graphs, but also, like, graphical. 00:04:15 i wrote a 6 line concatenative program 00:04:20 non-concatenative version? 20 fucking lines. 00:04:22 fuck yeah. 00:04:31 more like 25 actually. 00:04:43 what's the program 00:05:30 it isn't technically a program as much as a program fragment I cooked up when thinking about concatenative langs for a game engine scripting language 00:05:35 ehird: so you have a non-concatenative fucking programming language where the programs consist of fucking lines? 00:05:37 :P 00:05:38 class: name age ; 00:05:39 : make-person make 'age set! 'name set! ; 00:05:41 : speak [ 'name get ] dip "%s says: %s\n" printf ; 00:05:43 class: : evilness ; 00:05:45 : make-npc make-person downcast 'evilness set! ; 00:05:47 oerjan: verily,. 00:12:17 -!- jix_ has joined. 00:16:59 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:32:27 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 00:36:00 -!- jix_ has quit ("..."). 02:20:18 ugh 02:20:26 i HATE not being able to read full text of paper 02:20:28 goddamn 02:27:26 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:42:19 -!- bsmntbombgirl has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:45:40 -!- bsmntbombgirl has joined. 02:46:30 -!- bsmntbombgirl has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 03:13:04 i need an idea 03:13:37 buy wallabies! 03:14:56 * oerjan notes that the genius of his idea has left bsmntbombdood speechless 03:15:31 a _good_ idea 03:16:19 what do you have against wallabies, you animal fiend 03:17:44 Ken Thompson visited our lab at QMC while I was developing it and said something like: 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05:41:52 -!- oklopol has joined. 05:42:16 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 05:42:39 -!- Leonidas has joined. 05:42:57 -!- fizzie has joined. 05:43:18 -!- decipher has joined. 05:44:11 -!- ski__ has joined. 05:44:33 -!- Ilari has joined. 05:45:34 -!- lamente has joined. 05:45:57 -!- AnMaster has joined. 05:52:49 -!- cherez has left (?). 07:02:45 -!- jix has joined. 07:20:20 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:46:11 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:59:52 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 09:07:37 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 09:08:20 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 09:18:42 -!- comex has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:18:55 -!- comex has joined. 10:59:26 -!- jix has joined. 11:47:36 -!- Slereah has joined. 12:01:52 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:06:50 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:46:21 Is there no "not implemented" category/list on the wiki? 13:49:41 Isn't that just the set subtraction of the language list and the Implemented category? (What, MediaWiki doesn't do set operations?) 13:50:11 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 13:50:14 (Not in the UI, at least.) 13:50:17 Related: there are 192 articles in the "Languages" category, but 200 articles in the "Implemented" category. That probably means there are -8 unimplemented languages. 13:51:06 fizzie: Unfortunately you'll find that the 192 refers only to the number it's showing on that page, which is less than 200 due to the subcategories. 13:51:14 Yes, that was the silly. 13:51:16 Just noticed. 13:51:38 Aaand evidently subcategories aren't shown on just one page either. 13:51:40 http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Unimplemented 13:51:46 Hooray for UI. 13:51:47 Yes, it seems to be sorted. 13:53:34 Heh, Καλλίστῃ is apparently written with a kappa instead of a 'k', since it's at the end of the list there. 13:54:05 Hooray for byte value-based sorting. 13:56:14 Anyway... 71 in Unimplemented, 200+62=262 in Implemented, 192+179+11=382 in Languages; this time I counted them right. 49 languages are neither implemented, nor unimplemented; probably some sort of superposition of both. 13:56:51 Moving some of the Unimplemented to Unimplementable might be in order 13:57:10 For instance, the already mentioned Καλλίστῃ. 14:44:27 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:51:46 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 15:23:15 -!- decipher has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:24:03 $base(111011010,2,10) 15:24:13 ... forgot //echo -a 15:26:47 and missed a 0 15:26:59 :< 15:37:55 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 15:44:34 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:57:16 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 16:03:23 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 16:08:04 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:08:07 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:13:53 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:15:05 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:31:14 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:07:52 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:12:56 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:14:33 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:15:00 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:23:18 -!- oerjan has quit ("Whoosh!"). 17:50:35 -!- Metcalf has joined. 17:52:14 Hi :-) 17:55:58 -!- Metcalf has changed nick to impomatic. 17:56:05 -!- FireFly has joined. 18:17:41 Is there a term for mainstream languages that are rarely used / hear of? E.g. Oberon 18:24:26 Dead 18:24:27 :P 18:27:41 -!- Azstal has joined. 18:27:43 impomatic: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080118233717AASGNps 18:28:06 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:28:27 Hi ehird, and thanks MizardX 18:28:42 lol, yahoo answers 18:28:54 impomatic: I saw a reddit submission of yours earlier today :-) 18:28:59 recognized the name 18:30:59 impomatic: what's a reverse call? I'm not sure I understand 18:31:11 also, is #2-return, not too hot at redcode... 18:31:59 I use impomatic in most places, twitter, stumbleupon, delicious, blogger, reddit 18:33:20 Each redcode opcode has two operands (though sometimes they're omited) 18:33:20 equ defines a macro 18:33:41 ah 18:33:46 so "mov #2-return, is mov with two arguments 18:33:49 OK 18:34:01 so: call equ mov #2-return, :-) 18:34:17 what about a reverse jump? a function that is before the IP or something? 18:34:22 er 18:34:23 reverse call 18:37:03 mainstream, but never heard of? 18:37:06 how does that work? 18:40:41 There are a couple of solutions to that problem on my blog, but they're both a bit messy 18:40:41 There's a redcode specific IRC channel, #corewars on irc.koth.org 18:40:41 If the subroutine is above the call in the source listing, the calculated addresses are incorrect 18:40:41 Due to wierd behaviour in the macro pre-processor 18:41:19 Weird. 19:01:58 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:24:26 -!- olsner has joined. 19:34:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:35:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:50:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:32:35 -!- jix has joined. 20:48:13 -!- sazl has quit ("Lost terminal"). 20:54:49 ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>+[>>++>+>+>++<[+++++<]<-]>>>++.>-.-<++++..+++.>>--.+<<<.----->.---<[.>] 21:03:03 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:41:03 impomatic: no output? 21:48:32 No, is the bot broken? 21:48:40 hi ehird 21:48:50 ^bf ,[.,]!I am alive 21:48:54 impomatic: er, three is no bot 21:48:55 ^help 21:48:56 fungot isn't online 21:48:58 ah 21:49:00 fizzie: 21:49:13 fizzie: fungot's down 21:49:16 (just some context :P) 21:49:17 ehird, just to freak you out I'm going to test the results of using tcmalloc from http://code.google.com/p/google-perftools/ with cfunge ;P 21:49:29 Ouch. 21:50:29 notepad k 21:50:39 Wrong window! 21:52:47 I have no idea what the result will be.... Also this may take a while: building instructions for x86_64 linux is kind of complex due to glibc unwinder may call malloc on x86_64 causing a deadlock. So I need to install a snapshot version of libunwind first amongst other things 21:54:37 What about the firefox/freebsd malloc? jemalloc 21:55:20 ehird, it seems harder to get going as non-freebsd malloc 21:55:33 I thought speed is what mattered. :p 21:55:40 but apart from that it seems optimised to keep memory fragmentation low, rather than ultimate speed 21:55:47 Ah. 21:55:58 Just write yer own damn malloc. :p 21:56:00 good speed yes, and good multi-cpu performance 21:56:11 but not good against fragmentation 21:56:14 err 21:56:17 good against speed 21:56:21 on single cpu 21:56:34 and I don't have multi-core, nor does cfunge use more than one thread 21:57:07 ehird, anyway I'd rather not do that 21:57:13 Single-core systems. Weird shit. 21:57:19 Do you keep a dinosaur next to it? :P 21:57:24 ehird, rather a quite good system from 2005 21:57:29 I just don't have that much money 21:57:35 so I can go buy new every year 21:57:48 Yeah, it's just that multi core is really really useful. 21:57:49 I'm going to use this until it is really no longer usable and/or breaks 21:57:59 ehird, you pay for it? 21:58:04 because you can have a cpu thrashing away at a problem and still run smoothly 21:58:12 AnMaster: Hm? Well, yeah, multi core systems cost. 21:58:13 Still. 21:58:28 It's kind of like an OS without multiprocessing to me :-) 21:58:49 ehird, ah you pay for it then? Great thanks. Just send me your credit card number and the code :D 21:58:57 O crap 21:59:21 Um I don't have a credit card :P 21:59:29 ehird, also I will send it on to a friend from Nigeria who is looking for a UK account for some millions. 21:59:29 * impomatic has an 8 cpu mini-computer :-P 21:59:34 oh crap 21:59:35 Oh. 21:59:45 impomatic: heh 21:59:50 impomatic, hm? What sort? 22:00:08 "IRC read failed." Seems that freenode had some issues at some point. 22:00:12 Unfortunately it's from something like 1990, so not very impressive. 22:00:42 fizzie, oh yes during the night, doesn't it auto reconnect? 22:00:50 or don't you run it under a supervisor 22:00:57 say, daemontools 22:01:00 from djb 22:01:01 AnMaster: 19" MVME boards, with a "Cray" logo on the front 22:01:01 :) 22:01:08 impomatic, CRAY!!!!!!!! 22:01:09 :D 22:01:16 impomatic, picture? 22:01:21 I don't want to do that, it sounds far too serious. 22:01:24 impomatic, also what is 19" in metric? 22:01:31 The bot itself just @s if the read fails. 22:01:36 hah you got a point fizzie 22:01:51 -!- fungot has joined. 22:02:02 of course, we all know esoteric languages is serious business! 22:02:06 ^style 22:02:07 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 22:02:13 ^style speeches 22:02:14 Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg) 22:02:16 impomatic: does it run an infinite loop in 6 seconds? 22:02:17 hi fungot 22:02:18 AnMaster: does mr bentham deny this? if he had fallen in a common vehicle. they were dominant at oxford, powerful in the inns of court, not in those known and responsible counsellors to whom he early attached himself, and then proceed to another. 22:02:35 I nominate fungot for president 2012 22:02:38 ehird: the effect of the victory. in 1824 the free men who seek to better their conditions, but also the most faultless, that the ablest men have been chosen as deputies of the nobility, what was never forgotten by anyone else who ever read it, as will give a single instance from our existing laws, some alterations are thought to be of any weight, who refuses to adopt the tariff, we think his explanation fnord at least, behindh 22:02:50 A noble speech. 22:02:57 bentham? isn't he the person who wanted to be preserved or whatever? 22:03:07 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCException: MigoMipo out of IRC"). 22:03:20 19" is a standardish rack size, around half a metre. 22:03:25 ah 22:04:17 About 47cm, haven't got a photo - looks like a washing machine without the door. Never tried the infinite loop! 22:04:54 Is lovecraft a esolang? That'd be cool :-) 22:05:15 hehe, ^style controls fungot's babble 22:05:16 ehird: after the adjournment of congress, i could easily account for the obscurity of the african. the fnord sings, the spinning-wheel turns round, the wedding-day is fixed, not by the shortest fnord abate the nuisance, they pull down the house. 22:05:17 ^style 22:05:18 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches* ss wp 22:05:21 ^style darwin 22:05:21 Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy) 22:05:24 fungot: Be heretical! 22:05:25 ehird:/ cumbre, includes all/ chief races have not descended by independent lines from/ rock-pigeon. this reflection :)/ moon " as indexed by/ tides, unaided by a heavy fall :) snow on rocks. 22:05:30 oh, the :) and / bug 22:05:37 There's still the famous Darwin smiley issue, yes. 22:05:55 Darwin was a happy man. 22:07:32 "the cumbre, includes all the chief races have not descended by independent lines from the rock-pigeon. this reflection of the moon as indexed by the tides, unaided by a heavy fall of snow on rocks." in fixed format. 22:08:05 It is comforting to know we have not all descended from the rock-pigeon. 22:09:16 ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>+[>>++>+>+>++<[+++++<]<-]>>>++.>-.-<++++..+++.>>--.+<<<.----->.---<[.>] 22:09:17 hello world! 22:09:29 85 characters :P 22:09:45 I've got one in 84 now! 22:13:00 impomatic, oh? 22:13:00 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 22:13:46 is it possible to prove a specific bf program is the shortest possible encoding of a specific string in bf? 22:14:19 by exhaustively searching all shorter programs :D 22:14:29 so there is no short cut? 22:14:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:15:01 ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>+[>>++>+>+>++<[+++++<]<-]>>>++.>-.<++++..+++.>>--.++<<<.---->.--<[-.>] 22:15:02 hello world! 22:15:07 well you could exclude any program without output, and all programs with input would be uninteresting 22:15:17 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:15:20 there could be, but I think there's a reason optimization is hard in general 22:16:33 hm 22:19:42 We're also talking about bf in #corewars on irc.koth.org 22:20:30 Tell them to come here :-P 22:20:38 nice, corewars 22:20:38 I had a 116-char bf hello world as a test case for my thue interpreters 22:21:43 * ehird tries to work out impomatic's name in #corewars 22:22:32 it couldn't be just "impomatic"? 22:22:46 there is no impomatic in there. 22:22:59 also, nobody's talking. 22:23:07 OoS 22:23:20 it's a fish with a reddish hue, that's what it is 22:23:47 It's OoS. I already mentioned #esoteric 22:26:29 ehird: it was busy before you arrived http://www.koth.org/irc-logs/2009-01-27.txt 22:26:41 I kill everything I touch. 22:26:50 We're a bit shy around strangers ;-) 22:27:39 o 22:27:43 impomatic: if you can get BF hello world in a standard 80-char line I'll be amazed 22:27:57 ehird, result: At least this build of tcmalloc is slower than glibc malloc for cfunge 22:28:05 i see. 22:28:11 WE'RE NO STRANGERS TO LOOOOOOOVE 22:28:23 bu around 0.020 seconds 22:28:33 tested over 50 runs each 22:29:18 ehird: I don't think I can knock off the last 4 instructions 22:29:20 still the heap profiler should be interesting :) 22:29:24 impomatic: aw 22:29:27 -!- nescience has joined. 22:29:36 well 22:29:37 [.>] 22:29:40 is a pretty shoddy way to do it :P 22:30:05 AnMaster: is it possible to prove a specific bf program is the shortest possible encoding of a specific string in bf? <<< if you're asking in general, you can't be serious 22:30:17 oklopol: no, he is 22:30:31 I don't think AnMaster has ever fully grasped the halting problem, he says things like that all the time 22:30:33 oklopol, I'm only asking for "hello world!" 22:30:34 ... 22:30:45 and I suspected it would run into the halting problem yes 22:30:46 * ehird rolls eyes 22:30:49 but I wasn't sure 22:30:57 ooooooooooooooooooooooo 22:31:11 * oklopol dances a wild dance of oko 22:34:46 [21:15] http://golf.shinh.org/ 22:34:50 another anagolf player! 22:35:13 453339721324993013548175354624816937305067727045881380840502707195746854576 possible bf-programs of length 85 :) ... that's 75 digits! 22:35:37 wtf is "gv"? 22:35:49 I get "could not find gv" as a cryptic error 22:35:58 MizardX: yikes 22:36:05 what about length 80 22:36:39 15114869455135780537081431784864382700651060085404149964957776780638292 of length 80, 71 digits 22:37:01 would a genetic search work at all for this? Probably not 22:37:11 ... 22:37:12 MizardX, what about excluding input? 22:37:16 since it isn't relevant for this 22:37:17 AnMaster: You're really attentative. 22:37:20 EgoBot did that. 22:37:24 impomatic's beaten it by far. 22:37:29 ah 22:37:32 so.... 80 digits in octal = 71 digits in base 10? that's quite an observation :P 22:37:40 oklopol: :P 22:37:48 oklopol, :D 22:38:32 284508415089842693556340016101767865172552487769291117597604246945 of length 80, without input, 66 digits 22:38:39 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:38:45 MizardX, does this include invalid programs like ]]]] 22:38:50 no 22:38:57 oh it doesn't? 22:39:01 balanced [ ] 22:39:03 right, right, you're not an idiot 22:39:07 good 22:39:19 neither ] [ 22:39:37 MizardX, how long would an exhaustive search take? :D 22:39:45 assume a modern desktop computer 22:39:55 and an optimised bf implementation 22:40:11 and that each program will be terminated after, say, 10 seconds at most 22:40:22 since there is no way to know if it will halt at all 22:40:52 9.0157127687693897e+53 years given 1ms execution time per parogram 22:40:55 program* 22:41:00 Now we just need to know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaitin%27s_constant to get an estimate! 22:42:10 AnMaster treats huge brute forcing like I did a year ago. 22:42:22 also median running time of all halting problems 22:42:38 ehird: you mean all awe about combinatorial explosion? 22:42:57 lecturer showed today a loop that started 10 threads 22:43:11 for(i=0;i<10;i++)pid[i]=fork(); 22:43:16 no, just continually asking if halting problem-related things can be solved, and asking how long huge brute forcing will take as if it's even worthy of consideration 22:43:57 Hmmm... sounds a long time 22:44:03 MizardX, and assuming IBM RoadRunner or whatever the current fastest super computer is? 22:44:11 It requires 12 . only two of which are next to each other 22:44:17 I rest my case 22:44:24 ehird, I was joking... 22:44:27 * oklopol waits for someone to lol @ lecturer :< 22:44:29 sorry that I forgot ~ 22:44:42 Yeah, I was "joking" too in 2007 22:44:47 If the 1st . doesn't output a 'h' it can terminate 22:44:47 Forget that, . could be in a loop :-/ 22:45:14 ehird, so? You have been here way longer than I have 22:45:30 Being in #esoteric is not the be-all end-all of computational knowledge. 22:45:40 ehird, fully agreed 22:45:55 oh gv is some "view *.ps" thing 22:45:57 right 22:47:29 * Azstal invents Brainfrak, where the square brackets have chamfered edges. 22:48:03 proto: halting problem solver which, when given P, outputs "go to hell" and terminates the program. 22:48:53 ghostview? 22:50:41 fungot? 22:50:43 FireFly: " 651? 1. this paragraph was published in/ :( notices" just alluded to. in/ tenth chapter it was shown that no ascertained limit to/ amount :) structural difference between/ inhabitants :)/ radack archipelago, a length :) time. 22:50:45 Hi 23:00:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:03:33 impomatic, yep 23:03:58 ^style irc 23:03:59 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 23:04:06 also: night 23:04:45 Does anarchy golf use 0 for EOF? 23:05:11 Does the fungot chat style thing select random lines? 23:05:12 FireFly: on mac osx maybe? maybe switch on both?) ( else ( occurn ( cdr markers) ( cdr list) value) 23:05:21 'kay 23:05:48 impomatic: yes 23:05:49 IIRC 23:07:12 FireFly: markov chain of words 23:07:39 Ah 23:07:49 the style files are preprocessed 23:09:46 impomatic: Heh. Right after your program has printed out "hell" in "hello world!", exactly 666 operations has been executed. :P 23:10:52 haha 23:11:02 Nice, I wish I'd planned that! 23:11:18 Is that the 84 instruction version? 23:11:26 85 23:12:51 I also counted [, ] as single operations. Loop length is (1 + inner_ops)*num_cycles + 1 23:13:12 wtf is "gv"? 23:13:18 ghostview iirc 23:13:29 oerjan, already found out 23:13:34 ... 23:14:00 oerjan, maybe you shouldn't do like me, and instead read the whole scrollback first 23:14:05 ;P 23:14:07 night 23:14:16 but then i would forget that there was something to answer :D 23:14:17 READING THE BACKLOG IS FOR THE WEAK 23:17:03 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 23:22:47 GregorR: well what do you do in order to make sure you haven't missed any of the fun then? 23:23:10 (you mum?) 23:23:20 *your 23:24:03 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 23:24:52 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:42:20 -!- olsner has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:42:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye"). 23:42:44 so umm anarchy gold is actually *alive*? 23:43:56 ... 23:43:57 *golf 23:44:13 yeah, to a degree 23:44:17 it's never been particularly active, but people play it 23:44:19 and #golf 23:44:32 err 23:44:34 #anagolf 23:44:36 anagolf 23:44:43 * oerjan swats oklopol for making him google a nonexisting term -----### 23:44:47 err. 23:44:47 eh 23:44:49 whatever the chan is called 23:44:54 }o/ 23:44:55 wat 23:44:56 With \ 23:45:35 oerjan: don't google a term with "gold" in it. 23:46:16 you mean you want to hoard it all yourself? 23:46:58 http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?99+shinichiroes+of+hamaji <<< so umm 14 characters of ruby? 23:47:42 sure. 23:47:44 who knows 23:47:55 probably a sneaky cheat 23:47:57 $_,$x=split"!",<>;$x=reverse$x;s//\$i++;/g;s/-/\$a[\$i]--;/g;s/\+/\$a[\$i]++;/g;s/./print chr\$a[\$i];/g;s/,/\$a[\$i]=chop\$x;/g;s/\[/while(\$a[\$i]){/g;s/\]/};/g;eval$_ 23:48:00 wonder why this doesn't work. 23:48:28 just seems like kinda hard to cheat in a program that just prints a fuckload of text. 23:48:36 yeah 23:48:37 I dunno 23:49:01 of course, would be interesting if it was his submit, and shinichiroes of hamaji wasn't actually anything sensible, but just something that he could easily print. 23:49:49 the guy's hame is "shinh" 23:49:53 nick, at least 23:49:58 -> shinichiro hamaji 23:50:03 so it's probably the owner's submission 23:50:08 yes 23:51:11 http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Print+out+a+lot+_56K+BEWARE_ 23:51:14 my challenge ^.^ 23:51:38 probably shoulda chosen less determinatistic output 23:51:48 1-99999 is pretty easy 23:54:19 fungot 23:54:20 oklopol: homo sapiens hei_e__er_ensis ' !hangman lcase-guess' to guess a letter!! fnord::: 0xff sponsor gift 23:54:34 ^style 23:54:34 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 23:54:48 heidelbergensis 23:56:20 except it's apparently consider an own species, not a subspecies of sapiens 23:57:12 cise would probably be like Jn" .1e9 23:57:18 if i put in 1e9 23:58:00 i would prefer not having numbers at all (you know, for purity), but wouldn't be very golfy. 23:58:49 btw: thought of a new fun unimplementable feature for cise 23:58:49 oklopol: #anagol 23:58:57 there's a lot of parse trees 23:59:03 how about if there's ambiguity 23:59:13 you can specify an assert 23:59:29 Ass 23:59:45 ehird: oh i tried it right after #anagolf. 23:59:55 XD lol 2009-01-28: 00:00:14 When does the fungot bf interpreter terminate? E.g. if I put it in an infinite loop printing something? 00:00:15 impomatic: you could ask him to move two seats from mine. it's just werid that it never returned in the first place 00:00:40 impomatic: iirc it's pretty robust 00:00:44 impomatic: after $lot instructions? 00:00:48 ^bf +[>+] 00:00:56 ^bf +[.>+] 00:00:56 ... 00:00:59 ... 00:01:02 It's not meant to break. 00:01:06 fizzie: 00:01:18 impomatic: fungot is written in befunge 00:01:19 ehird: basically lots of spaces there.) 00:01:20 Didn't it replace chars <31 with dots? 00:01:21 impomatic: well i think it also stops after a number of characters 00:01:28 impomatic: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 00:01:29 ehird: or is it new zealand... do you do if you keep using the module system command processor chapters. 00:02:30 FireFly: not all of them, just LF and CR iirc, it was changed so it could do emotes and stuff 00:02:37 Ah 00:02:47 ^bf +[.+] 00:02:48 .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ... 00:02:57 00:03 CTCP-query unknown( ..) from fungot 00:02:58 ehird: bad things happen when 2 year olds realize " wow. i have moral fiber. 00:02:58 :-D 00:03:02 hahahahah 00:03:04 [01:02:47] Channel CTCP .. request from fungot [n=fungot@momus.zem.fi] (.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...), ignored (unrecognized) 00:03:05 FireFly: i'll blame them regardless. :-p i just feel optimistic in general. 00:03:15 FireFly: but the channel censors some others 00:03:28 a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page; h) ehird: bad things happen when 2 year olds realize " wow. i have moral fiber. FireFly: i'll blame them regardless. :-p i just feel optimistic in general. 00:03:29 ehird: so...if i were to use cps to do any key input without actually matching the keycodes 00:03:31 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page; h) ehird: bad things happen when 2 year olds realize " wow. i have moral fiber. FireFly: i'll blame them regardless. :-p i just feel optimistic in general.. 00:03:38 :> 00:03:55 o 00:04:24 Yes, the interpreter stops after aaaaaa***** instructions. ("Instructions" here means bytecode instructions, so +++++ counts as a single instruction.) 00:04:50 (And it also terminates after 88+:* output characters.) 00:05:07 People can't read befunge numbers, fizzie :P 00:05:13 16*16? 00:05:18 Well, 10^6 and 256, then. 00:06:05 ehird: sure we can, with a little thought. 00:06:56 What's 'a'? 00:07:04 10. 00:07:08 a-f push 10-16. 00:07:09 Ah 00:07:16 *-15 00:07:18 I didnẗ know there were a hex addition 00:07:33 Just knew of 0-9 00:07:37 Comes in Funge-98; doesn't exist in Befunge-93. 00:08:01 Although I've seen at least one "mostly Befunge-93" interpreter that did a-f (and the single-shot string-mode ') as an extension. 00:09:05 <> #" 91+6*:,2+,84*:,:3+,84*2+,>:#,_84*2+,@" is my most creative creation in Befunge so far 00:09:16 wuz dat do 00:09:19 quine 00:09:29 By parsing the stuff inside the string as code 00:09:37 After pushing it to the mem as a string 00:09:43 mm right 00:09:45 The string-mode feature makes it pretty well-suited for quines. 00:09:52 Yep, combined with # 00:10:15 is # a bouncal 00:10:26 It jumps over the next command 00:10:29 oh. 00:10:42 so yes, but a different kind than i thought. 00:10:46 So I basicly jump over the " that enters string-mode 00:10:56 that's the great thing about inventing your own words 00:11:02 if you're wrong, no one will know 00:11:02 The underload interpreter termination condition is even more arbitrary, since it's ffaa***, so 225000. Not sure why. Since it counts Underload commands, it's easy to get a rather slow Underload program by just ":*"ing up two strings that are close to half of the stack size limit, then looping with (~:^):^. 00:11:44 oklopol: a suparene observation 00:12:02 oerjan: lol i almost googled that. 00:12:14 It doesn't contain "gold" at least 00:12:22 fizzie: better arbitrary than base 10 00:12:52 okay math time ---> 00:24:01 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:25:16 By the way, from 2003-01-something to 2008-10-31, 786499 lines were said here. 00:25:21 800k. Not really that many... 00:25:46 It'd take 9 straight days to read the logs, assuming 1line/sec 00:26:05 so probably like nearing a month to read them all if you allocated a bit of your day to it 00:27:08 Time is valuable 00:29:37 -!- FireFly has quit ("zzzzz"). 00:30:12 * oerjan is slightly startled by his watch 00:30:29 wut 00:30:31 it has day names in both english and german 00:30:45 Time flies like an arrow, FireFly's a banana 00:30:58 normally it's in english, but for a brief time each night it goes by the german one 00:31:06 so currently it reads "DIE" :D 00:31:29 (well, abbreviated to 3 letters) 00:31:59 lamente: a burning banana? 00:32:11 my watch is like that- 00:32:24 it has english and spanish, spanish is what's normally on 00:32:35 is yours a citizen? 00:32:49 Lorus, it says 00:34:13 er, a russian in canada, with his watch set to spanish? 00:34:25 lamente is a polyglot 00:34:35 lamente do you know toki pona or is that someone else 00:36:35 lamente 00:37:16 yes 00:37:25 i am that someone else 00:37:34 lamente how do you say "segmentation fault" in toki pona :P 00:37:47 "pakala" 00:37:53 ...really? 00:37:55 yes 00:37:56 I was expecting "you can't". 00:38:03 What does pakala literally mean? 00:38:14 the creator of toki pona was in #linguistics today, actually 00:38:27 it means "Bugger up" 00:38:38 haha 00:38:53 lamente: I take it that applies to all error? 00:39:06 yes. 00:39:09 :-D 00:39:37 I should learn toki pona. 00:39:40 It'd be fun. 00:48:41 lamente: So I take it technical discussion in toki pona is near-impossibl 00:48:42 e 00:50:04 yes! 00:50:53 I take it this is a feature 00:51:14 Maybe someone should design a toki pona programming language. The only error message is "pakala" 00:51:44 the name alone tells us it's intended for pacific paradise islands without modern technology. 00:52:42 Some paradise. 00:52:55 pakala, tu ala, nasa jan! (note, I know none of the grammar, so I put them in a random vaguely english-like order) 00:56:59 lamente: Doesn't toki pona kind of rely on the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis being strongly true? 00:58:36 strongly true, or maybe strongly false, something like that 00:59:50 lamente: how strongly false? It's meant to change how you think. 01:00:07 ehird: is it? 01:00:20 It can become a sort of "yoga for the mind". Instead of getting caught in negative thoughts and anxiety, you learn to relax, meditate and explore your relationship to life itself. 01:00:26 Training your mind to think in Toki Pona can lead to many deeper insights about yourself or the world around you. 01:00:28 etc 01:00:30 what the fuck? 01:00:41 did sonja write that? 01:01:33 yes 01:01:37 http://www.tokipona.org/intro.html 01:01:42 section Wisdom and True Meaning 01:01:52 that's horrible 01:02:05 it's certainly bullshit 01:02:07 but then sonja is a profoundly fucked up individual 01:02:11 haha 01:02:12 how 01:02:31 she wrote that, for one! 01:02:41 for other...? 01:02:42 :p 01:07:00 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:17:46 oklopol: ping 01:26:47 oklopol: ping 01:27:51 lamente: More bullshit: "medical benefits" http://www.tokipona.org/ponasijelo.html 01:29:06 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:29:12 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:29:31 ^bf ++++[<+++++<+++<++<+<++[>]<-]<-<-<<<-<<+++++[>+++++<-]>[>+>[++++>][<]>-]>>.---.>..>.<<<.>>>>.<.+++.<.<-.<+. 01:29:32 hello world! 01:31:01 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 01:31:58 oko! 01:32:31 oklopol: ping 01:32:31 means eye in toki pona 01:32:42 toki pona! 01:33:22 means good language in toki pona 01:37:59 kerlo! 01:38:17 ek, orl? 01:38:31 means olrek in not backwards ese. 01:38:40 I guess my Translation-Creds have run out. 01:41:17 so what does kerlo mean in lojban? 01:41:22 Ear. 01:41:26 ah 01:42:00 It's a metaphor. Maybe. :-P 01:42:02 heh 01:42:07 my name means table 01:42:20 well, Asztal's name. 01:42:36 in lojban? 01:42:46 Hungarian 01:56:25 theres this language, armenian, written with a funky alphabet, and one joke about the written language is that it looks like hu muh umun unuuu mumuhu mukum unum utuh mumhumuhum 01:56:31 because, well.. it does, a lot. 01:56:52 i've suggested in #isharia that someone make an eso conlang that looks like that when romanized 01:57:14 uh huh. 01:57:34 everything is hmnu or some other similar stuff 01:57:53 hm 01:58:01 i wonder if we could make similar analogies here 01:58:09 maybe an esolang that mocks lisp 01:58:20 everything literally is ()))((())()))(()) 01:58:21 that'th not very nithe 01:58:33 i think that has been done 01:58:52 has it? 01:59:00 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brackets 01:59:07 ok not exactly the same 01:59:34 ack 01:59:40 not even close 01:59:44 too much extra 01:59:48 <>(()[Brackets])<()0)}())[)()0))(]])1) 01:59:48 <>>([)0)>[0]{(]()2)()))([)0))([])1)(]])2) 01:59:51 look at that code 02:00:00 do yo see that? that is way too comprehensible! :| 02:00:13 why, i can practically read that! 02:00:32 must be your linguist training 02:00:38 :P 02:02:33 hm there should be something closer but i don't know how to search for it 02:19:48 ehird: pong 02:36:50 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:49:26 oklopol! :d 02:49:27 :D 02:51:55 -!- lamente has changed nick to lament. 03:42:53 -!- Kinjet has joined. 03:43:17 -!- Kinjet has left (?). 03:43:47 historyofspam? 03:43:48 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:44:00 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:35:47 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 05:36:00 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 06:42:48 a while ago we were talking about fastly implementing brainfuck, specifically bounds checking on the tap 06:43:36 the best way is probably to just mmap 2 gb and put a gaurd page on either end 06:43:38 and you're done 06:43:52 no stupid reallocing or anything 06:44:06 you mean 06:44:16 brainfuck memory checking is O(1) for sufficiently large values of 1 06:44:28 what do you mean? 06:51:43 ... 06:55:30 fine 06:56:23 -!- olsner has joined. 07:00:26 -!- impomatic has joined. 07:20:22 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 07:22:48 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:22:54 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:33:08 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:33:26 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:34:16 -!- cherez has joined. 07:34:32 -!- cherez has quit (Client Quit). 07:35:15 -!- cherez has joined. 07:35:27 -!- cherez has left (?). 07:42:48 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:43:01 -!- ehird has joined. 07:45:58 -!- mtve has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:09:36 -!- jix has joined. 08:26:04 Anyone know a good parser generator/library for python? 08:26:51 PLY? 08:27:51 Parsec 08:31:07 PLY seems interesting... couldn't find Parsec >_> 08:34:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 08:54:56 -!- NerdyChic has joined. 08:56:27 -!- NerdyChic has left (?). 08:58:52 interesting 08:59:38 using bsearch() is slower than a simple linear search with "stop if passed the value we searched for" in certain cases. 08:59:55 * AnMaster wonders about a custom binary search instead 09:01:07 (and yes I did large tests and plotted the results) 09:02:40 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:02:47 -!- puzzlet has joined. 09:23:58 for custom the difference is so small in this case that the mean of 500 runs varies less than 0.00001 between custom binary search and the linear search. Heh. 09:30:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:35:36 ais523, hi 09:36:01 I was testing the best way to search for fingerprint to load, and a linear search is faster than bsearch() for some reason. 09:36:09 hi 09:36:15 A custom binary search is just about as fast as a linear search 09:37:49 ais523, any idea why? 09:38:03 AnMaster: you're on a small array 09:38:18 binary is only faster than linear if you have a lot of elements 09:38:21 30 entries 09:38:25 hm 09:38:30 simple algorithms tend to be faster on small numbers of entries no matter what their computational class 09:38:38 hm ok 09:38:38 in this case, lsearching 30 entries is trivial for a computer 09:38:51 bsearching involves lots of complicated comparisons and looping and out-of-order memory accesses 09:38:56 ais523, the array stride is quite large 09:39:02 if you had 100000 fingerprints, the bsearch would probably be faster 09:39:32 array stride = 48 bytes 09:39:40 since I'm searching an array of structs 09:39:46 based on the first field in the struct 09:40:07 ais523, hm 09:41:00 ais523, I guess maybe cache matters too? 09:41:17 possibly, but that's unlikely to be the reason 09:41:28 hm 09:41:29 right 09:41:56 well, the way Mike Riley is going, I guess bsearch will be faster soon ;) 09:43:38 heh 09:44:13 Deewiant, mycology doesn't test 3DSP right? 09:44:36 because cfunge implements that one 09:44:48 and if mycology doesn't test it, ccbi doesn't implement it 09:44:56 most likely 09:45:11 or wait, does it? 09:45:26 _3dsp.d, yet I can't find it when grepping mycology 09:45:41 huh 09:46:10 which one is 3DSP? 09:46:47 "3D space manipulation extension" is the official name, but actually it is FPSP-style matrix operatiosn 09:46:49 operations* 09:46:53 and vectors 09:47:03 ah, interesting 09:47:21 you know, I'm slightly scared at all the "useful" operations that Befunge is accumulating... 09:47:21 dot product or vector, matrix translation and so on 09:47:36 ais523, that is mostly due to RC/Funge I'm afraid 09:47:40 and half of them are insane 09:47:47 like malloc() stuff for funge and what not 09:48:17 most of them I'm never going to implement. 09:49:27 I don't get xkcd today... 09:51:44 Finally I'm in first place on something :-) http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?google#Brainfuck 09:52:03 impomatic: ah, I remember anagold 09:52:05 *anagolf 09:52:11 I used to play it a lot, but haven't checked in recently 09:52:51 bf size = 114 09:52:59 befunge size = 26 09:53:01 heh 09:53:16 AnMaster: Befunge has loads more commands and also string literals, it's easily going to win in a problem like that 09:53:21 yes 09:53:31 bash and awk = 25 09:54:03 python = 25 too 09:54:03 bash is a special one, because it allows you to call out to external programs 09:54:09 perl = 17 09:54:10 whereas most of the others don't by default 09:54:18 ais523, it says "exec denied" 09:54:21 yes 09:54:23 isn't that true for bash too? 09:54:25 bash always has exec allowed, though 09:54:30 strange 09:54:30 no matter what the global setting 09:54:33 pure bash is fun 09:54:47 GolfScript == 14?! 09:56:41 GolfScript is an esolang specifically designed to give small programs 09:56:51 ais523, do you get xkcd today? 09:56:56 although I think it's beatable with a newly designed language, it beats everything else on anagolf's list hollow 09:57:00 AnMaster: I don't read xkcd 09:57:17 what is "Mind of Mencia" 09:57:57 hm... seems like a humor program according to wikipedia. Then xkcd make even less sense 10:08:09 ais523, unusually mad concept: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_fountain 10:09:28 AnMaster: OK, that's very clever, but insane 10:09:35 exactly 10:09:43 especially as it might lead to the destruction of the surrounding countryside, or possibly the entire Earth, if the power supply failed 10:10:11 ais523, and I think it would need enormous amount of energy... 10:10:16 ah yes 10:10:30 Wikipedia thinks it wouldn't survive re-entry, though, so you would only have a minor disaster on your hands 10:11:18 incidentally, I just received an email saying "door controllers not working" 10:11:24 but it was the internal doors this time for a change 10:11:42 also would transporting people in that work? I mean the G force would be rather huge wouldn't it? 10:11:56 ais523, so you can't get in? 10:12:01 AnMaster: no, I am in 10:12:07 um 10:12:09 I'm not entirely convinced that I could get back out again 10:12:09 can't get out? 10:12:12 but I may try later today 10:12:13 ouch 10:12:14 I haven't checked yet 10:12:24 the doors are generally quite good at opening from the inside, though 10:12:27 ah 10:12:47 ais523, space elevator though, that sounds quite sane nowdays 10:13:23 compared to the fountain 10:13:28 I think they're both insane, personally 10:13:47 ais523, possibly 10:14:11 ais523, would someone have thought the space shuttle insane back in 1850? 10:14:23 again probably 10:14:31 but then, some people think the space shuttle insane even in 2009 10:15:15 well, from an environmental viewpoint the whole rocket launch concept is insane... 10:15:20 yes 10:15:40 in that case a space elevator would actually be sane :D 10:15:45 hmm... maybe not, I reckon most rocket fuels could be derivable from renewable sources in theory 10:16:36 ais523, what about emissions? 10:17:01 AnMaster: well, CO2 would be removed from the atmosphere as the fuels were made 10:17:16 water vapour is unlikely to be much of a problem, it can cause global warming but most of it won't be at the right height 10:17:22 nitrous oxides might be problematic 10:17:29 hm 10:17:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launch_loop 10:17:36 :D 10:18:48 ais523, what about that one? 10:18:54 also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_ring 10:18:55 reading it now 10:30:39 ais523, so what do you think? 10:31:01 AnMaster: I think that they're probably less insane than space elevators 10:31:08 but still, I'm not entirely sure they'll be relevant any time soon 10:31:14 we just don't have high-volume space traffic yet 10:31:16 true 10:31:31 ais523, well that is maybe because of the costs? 10:31:47 could be 10:32:06 but I think we need to solve the environment issues first instead 12:44:33 -!- ais523 has quit ("lunch"). 13:16:22 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:22:26 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:33:02 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:33:06 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:01:05 oklopol: learn APL. trust me: http://se.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xAKttWgP4 14:01:55 ehird, se.? why? 14:02:02 because the reddit link was se. 14:02:11 AnMaster: when did ais523 part 14:02:22 ah... 14:02:24 13:44:33 14:02:24 about an hour ago 14:02:25 ... 14:02:27 for lunch 14:02:32 okay 14:02:35 well you have scrollback 14:02:36 ;P 14:02:59 except I was in #haskell overnight 14:03:12 so when the bouncer spewed the backlog at me, it crashed my poor client because #haskell is really fucking active 14:03:18 well, froze it up. 14:03:24 so I'd have to open the logfile. 14:04:40 I was testing the best way to search for fingerprint to load 14:04:47 Does it occur to you that that is not your bottleneck? 14:04:57 was watching that video... 14:05:01 APL is insane :D 14:05:19 also awesome. 14:05:24 true 14:05:26 ehird, also how comes your client froze from it? 14:05:33 I mean, sounds like a poorly designed one 14:05:39 AnMaster: because #haskell is really damn active (it's hard to keep up with) 14:05:43 and I was offline for many hours 14:05:50 and the bouncer doesn't do delays 14:05:53 it just shoots it 14:06:12 AnMaster: for example 14:06:13 I'm also in #haskell, and ##linux, and #gentoo, all very active. And lots of other channels. When I reconnect the client is kind of slow for about 5 seconds or so 14:06:25 when left over night 14:06:26 haskell logs are 500KB on average 14:06:27 per day 14:06:34 ehird, yes and? I'm in there too 14:06:43 and I have been disconnected over night as well 14:06:47 so for the whole of 500KB, my client - written in Ruby, and using Cocoa... not the fastest combination - 14:06:53 gets the line 14:06:53 oh right 14:06:55 processes it 14:06:57 puts it in the log 14:07:00 well my client is written in elisp 14:07:03 and puts it in the "view of everything else" 14:07:07 at the bottom of the sceen 14:07:09 and the logging is done in bouncer 14:07:11 not in client 14:07:12 repeat for ~500KB worth of lines 14:07:16 AnMaster: umm, no shit 14:07:27 it gets the log from the server 14:07:29 and puts it in its log 14:08:38 what is "Mind of Mencia" 14:09:05 Carlos Mencia is a douchebag "comedian" that steals all his jokes and isn't funny in the slightest. At least, that's what the interwebs hivemind says. 14:09:26 ah 14:11:52 ehird, ok APL is really "wow", but the keyboard layout must be horrible 14:11:59 it's not a keyboard layout, IIRC 14:11:59 just a font 14:12:06 you type with a regular ascii keyboard and get APL instead 14:12:13 multi-key operators, I think 14:12:21 well, in modern ones 14:12:24 old ones had their own keyboard 14:12:33 also check out J and K, which are basically ascii apl 14:12:36 but they're less cool. 14:12:37 that sounds rather irritating to type, I mean somewhat like { is AltGr-7 on Swedish keyboards 14:12:43 which is irritating when coding in C 14:12:52 I think it balances out because you barely need to type. 14:12:59 ah maybe 14:13:24 http://www.dyalog.com/linux.htm Dyalog APL (used in that video) for Linux 14:13:28 I see no download linnk, though. 14:13:33 It's non-free, of course. 14:13:37 Linux License Fees 14:13:40 Developer 32 bit incl. Support & Upgrades 14:13:45 annual license fee 14:13:46 £1050 14:14:04 I can't believe APL is popular enough for that to actually be profitable :-P 14:15:28 very expensive 14:15:32 I guess not a lot buy it 14:15:51 it is like those VHDL stuff, so few buy it that the per-unit price must be very very high 14:16:19 [15:12:43] which is irritating when coding in C 14:16:23 hm.... that isn't correct... stuff is singular 14:16:25 It's stuck in my hands 14:16:31 so replace "those" 14:16:34 FireFly, um? 14:16:45 I press altgr+7 so often that I'm used t o it 14:16:47 to* 14:17:01 FireFly, well too, but it is still irritating 14:17:27 ehird, I wonder if there is any open source APL implementation 14:17:36 Probably. They probably suck too. 14:17:55 also I wonder what befunge-98 in APL would look like. Apart from that most people wouldn't be able to read it 14:17:56 The APL/J/K kind of languages seem to have something about them leading to that. 14:17:57 shrug 14:18:01 AnMaster: Concise. :p 14:18:07 I mean, heck, fungespace would be trivial 14:18:07 yeah 14:18:18 ehird, yes, but what about IO? 14:18:28 you need to read/write files 14:18:44 well... I think most APL implementations have system interface libraries 14:18:52 but you're not meant to use them 14:18:56 oh? 14:18:59 closed world style? 14:19:11 Well, most APL programmers don't make binaries. 14:19:23 The APL/J/K kind of languages seem to have something about them leading to that. <-- maybe because they seem to be write-once languages? 14:19:26 Primarily, as far as I can tell, they develop in the REPL and stuff, 14:19:30 then it's run from there 14:19:41 AnMaster: Nah, I can read that stuff to a degree 14:19:44 it's just a learning curve 14:19:56 ehird, well, and a different paradigm 14:20:02 -> learning curve 14:20:23 yes, that makes the learning curve unusually steep 14:20:52 AnMaster: http://nsl.com/papers/befunge93.htm Befunge-93 in K, with a GUI interface 14:21:04 very impressive. 14:21:05 a GUI? 14:21:09 ah 14:21:10 right 14:21:11 AnMaster: yes, you can watch the IP go around 14:21:12 and edit there 14:21:18 and it also has a console interface. 14:21:24 wonder about speed 14:21:27 AnMaster: http://nsl.com/k/befunge93.k 14:21:38 it's so short! 14:21:41 concise yes 14:21:52 that INCLUDES the gui 14:22:02 befunge-98 would of course be a bit longer, but yes very concise 14:22:03 and it's only like 2 pages of code 14:22:16 ehird, it isn't very readable though 14:22:24 do you know K? 14:22:27 no? that explains it then :P 14:22:39 I don't know a single command of that 14:22:40 But 14:22:41 W.P:80 25#,," "/ program window 14:22:42 W.P..bg:{:[_i~|P[1;2];999900;999999]}/ yellow cell is current pointer 14:22:47 it looks like some of those "lots of operators, but 1D" languages "B::"";b:{[f]if[~#B;B::0:`];r:f B;B::(#r)_ B;r}" 14:22:48 Looks pretty small 14:22:55 FireFly: hm? 14:22:56 Or, short 14:22:59 The code 14:23:00 Compact 14:23:01 ah 14:23:02 :P 14:23:06 yes 14:23:17 I don't think that has any explicit loops at all 14:23:22 most APL/J/K programs don't 14:23:39 (they use vector operations instead, since array programming language) 14:23:55 ehird, also I wonder how fast it would run game of life? as fast as jitfunge? 14:24:00 http://nsl.com/ has a bunch of other APL/J/K code btw 14:24:03 AnMaster: um... no :P 14:24:11 It'll probably be not very fast. 14:24:13 ehird, probably not as fast as cfunge either ;) 14:24:22 and cfunge is very fast at it 14:24:24 Probably around ccbi speed, I guess. 14:24:39 well... that isn't too bad 14:24:41 (The array programming language family have _very_ optimised vector operations) 14:24:47 yes indeed 14:25:00 they would have to 14:25:48 hm 14:26:09 AnMaster: here's something impressive: 14:26:23 gcc-befunge, someone should make it... (yes I realise this means me probably... and I might if I have time at some point) 14:26:26 ehird, ? 14:26:30 sec 14:26:42 "sec" is impressive? 14:26:43 ;P 14:27:02 AnMaster: shortest sudoku solver, evar, in K: 14:27:03 f:{$[&/x;,x;,/f'@[x;i;:;]'&27=x[,/p i:x?0]?!10]} 14:27:07 written by the creator of K 14:27:12 that's _really_ short 14:27:31 and a comment from him: 14:27:32 "a few more bytes with a greedy algorithm is one million times faster on some harder puzzles .. (30ms instead of 1 hour) " 14:27:34 AnMaster: OK, that's very clever, but insane <-- that comment *could* have been about APL, but in fact it was about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_fountain 14:27:48 yeah I read the logs :P 14:28:01 ehird, have you seen the sudoku solved in *.deb 14:28:04 as in the package manager 14:28:07 I think so yes 14:28:12 dpkg or apt or whatever it is 14:28:25 don't remember which part handles what 14:28:55 ehird, did he post that longer version? 14:29:06 not that I can see, it's probably on the google somewhere 14:30:06 well... lets invent AQ9+ 14:30:11 let's not :p 14:30:20 which is like HQ9+ but has s for "solve sudoku" 14:30:29 Then why A? 14:30:35 Why not SQ9+ ? 14:30:37 FireFly, because it doesn't make sense :D 14:30:41 >.> 14:30:46 SudoKu 14:30:48 SudoQ 14:30:56 hah 14:31:02 sudo ku? 14:31:02 someone make a sudoku program that only runs as root 14:31:03 and call it ku 14:31:06 grrrrrr AnMaster 14:31:09 Heh 14:31:09 stop stealing my bad jokes 14:31:10 ehird, hah I won by one second 14:31:22 for me: 14:31:22 14:31 someone make a sudoku program that only runs as root 14:31:23 14:31 sudo ku? 14:31:28 Well I won by 5 secs in thinking 14:31:32 (but it was clearly unconnected) 14:31:34 FireFly: hee 14:31:42 ehird, for me it was 15:31:01 sudo ku? 15:31:02 someone make a sudoku program that only runs as root 14:31:47 ku would of course have to be a KDE program 14:31:55 Of course 14:31:56 and yes, unconnected 14:32:05 ehird, ksu ku then? 14:32:13 There'd had to be a "Q" program, so that the KDE one is Ku 14:32:15 yes ksu exists 14:32:15 AnMaster: isn't it kdesu 14:32:21 ehird, hm? 14:32:22 and I know, you're meant to use it 14:32:22 * AnMaster checks 14:32:26 to avoid home directory stuff I think 14:32:40 oh yes it seems to be 14:32:50 I always read kdesu as "K desu" and then I read it as "K desu desu desu desu desu desu" and then I die. 14:32:59 :D 14:33:08 * AnMaster googles desu since he forgot what that meme was about 14:33:35 I think by now it's more or less completely meaningless. 14:33:35 "# A Japanese copula, or word used to grammatically link a subject and predicate. i.e. It is a Japanese verb meaning "to be"." "# An abbreviation for Delaware State University." 14:33:38 And therefore zen. 14:33:41 or the third meaning: 14:33:45 "# The nickname of Suiseiseki, a fictional character in Rozen Maiden, which is also used as a meme." 14:33:56 http://encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Desu, but the likelyhood of you clicking an ED link is approximately 0 14:34:14 ehird, safe for work? 14:34:22 Not later down the page. 14:34:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcaW_ZYWSbo 14:34:47 Looks pretty od 14:34:47 d 14:35:08 Interesting how many meanings one word can have 14:35:14 Comparing the subs to the vocals 14:35:22 haha. 14:35:47 Cavemanime: "ug ug ug ug ug ug ug ug ug" 14:36:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:00:06 FireFly: Perhaps one should study Japanese. ;) 15:00:16 Maybe 15:05:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("yay, kde 4.2!"). 15:11:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:11:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Client Quit). 15:12:15 ais523: impomatic: ah, I remember anagold <<< lul i did the same typo 15:15:18 I think I'm going to implement Underload 15:17:49 underload is fun 15:19:47 ehird: The APL/J/K kind of languages seem to have something about them leading to that. <<< maybe because they're point-free for the most part? 15:20:00 how is that related to having shitty open source implementations 15:20:02 :s 15:20:06 ohh 15:20:33 i thought you were referring to being hard to read, based on what anmaster answered 15:20:57 no wait 15:21:00 blah. 15:21:06 forget i said that or i will kill you. 15:21:18 oklopol learn apl 15:25:08 oooooooooo 15:25:13 when i'm done with my j's 15:25:29 i'm still far from good at it. 15:25:56 apl is cooler. 15:26:06 i'll watch el vid now 15:34:41 j would do that the same way, except some of the stuff like "apply to each" there can be omitted in j 15:35:19 oklopol: yeah but it looks cooler 15:35:26 because it's ap fucking l and has its own character set 15:35:28 naturally. it's weirder. 15:36:26 anyway would be so cool to be able to write j/apl that fast 15:36:32 i mean it just looks so awesome 15:36:41 i know. 15:36:59 of course i probably could if i wrote it a bit more, i haven't really tried writing anything in it, so i'm fairly slow. 15:37:29 Someone should implement Sir. Cut 15:37:39 I tried, but it didn't work out well 15:40:30 http://www.hortont.com/racarr/?p=27 15:40:30 gpu life 15:41:07 not hashlife tho 15:41:07 :< 15:43:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Life 15:44:53 'only "20 cartridges or less" of Video Life were ever made.' 15:45:01 They'd be quite valuable 15:45:08 Yes. Also quite slow :P 15:55:35 hmm 15:55:39 oklopol: i have a GoL quesitonnnnnnnnnnnnnn 15:55:51 wouldn't it be possible to be really efficient by storing the neighbour count of cells? 15:55:54 then just switching based on that 15:57:48 One still needs to store each cell's state and update the state of the surrounding cells... 15:58:02 Also, that takes up a fuckton of memory. 15:58:40 If you want to be really efficient, go with hashlife. ;) 16:00:29 ehird: you just move the problem of checking all neighbors. 16:00:58 you'd get one check for deciding next state, but you'd have to propagate the state to neighboring neighbor counts 16:01:05 back to sp -> 16:44:52 #tokipona in too many lines: 16:44:53 16:44 Potkan has joined (n=Potkan@a40-unl1-2-27.static.adsl.vol.cz) 16:44:53 16:44 Saluton. 16:44:55 16:44 toki :) 16:44:57 16:44 Good evening. 16:44:59 16:44 toki 16:45:01 16:44 coi 16:45:03 16:44 hej 16:45:05 16:44 hello 16:45:07 16:44 coi 16:45:09 16:44 saluton 16:45:11 16:44 hej 16:45:13 16:44 hello 16:45:15 Seriously. 16:45:17 They're still at it . 17:21:22 ais is sure having a long lunch... 17:23:50 indeed 17:28:50 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 17:30:05 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:42:58 GregorR: 17:47:53 "A type system powerful enough to express exactly what a function does would be quite nice." 17:47:57 Aka, a programming language. 17:48:03 (ihope 2007-07-30) 17:54:43 so i was thinking about a stack-based logic programming language 17:58:33 and i made a program snippet that solved a sudoku with it 17:58:40 and it was longer than the k thing 17:58:41 ooh 17:58:41 show 17:58:43 and i was like k. 17:58:46 showshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshow 17:59:27 well, i kinda deleted the thingie. 17:59:37 and it was fairly half-assed 17:59:39 REWRITE IT 17:59:43 :D 17:59:51 IT SOUNDS PHUN MOBILE 18:00:51 err wait 18:02:49 blah how the fuck does k do it :| 18:03:14 JUST GIMME THE KOE 18:04:23 something like this: A(1,9)@A(3,3)/adA(1,9)/adA(9,1)/ad 18:04:52 dude that's pretty um how did it work 18:04:54 basically the solving just means specifying the rules of sudoku 18:04:59 err wait 18:05:07 (i'm talked to) 18:06:01 oklopol now write it IN APL 18:07:05 so, A(1,9)@ means all elements of A are from set {1, 2.. 9} 18:07:15 neat 18:07:18 but thats not stack based 18:07:21 the rest is predefined splicings. 18:07:25 well it is. 18:07:39 just you can't really see it because i named the array. 18:08:06 don't name ANYTHING :| 18:08:45 A(3,3)/ad; (3,3)/ is a splicing that splits the axes evenly in three parts, same semantics as in oklotalk 18:09:02 ad is just alldiff, its rank is 1 18:09:09 don't name ANYTHING :| 18:09:15 (it's also an array-processing language ofc) 18:09:39 stack-based logic programming array-processing language 18:10:03 well you don't have to name it, but here it's shorter that way 18:10:09 don't name ANYTHING :| 18:10:10 s-blpa-pl 18:10:48 could just do the operations on shallow copies of A using ":" 18:10:58 and assume it's tos 18:11:03 hello lament 18:11:05 who are you? 18:12:35 hi 18:12:41 i'm a loser baby 18:12:44 so why don't you kill me 18:13:29 yeah that's a good song 18:14:56 lol 18:15:02 18:11 hello lament 18:15:03 18:11 who are you? 18:15:04 18:12 hi 18:15:06 18:12 i'm a loser baby 18:15:08 18:13 so why don't you kill me 18:15:10 18:13 yeah that's a good song 18:15:12 The best of #esoteric. 18:18:01 that's pretty depressing. 18:18:30 lament: protip: oklopol is never serious 18:18:33 even when he's serious 18:18:52 I'm always serious, even when I'm not. 18:19:13 Does that make me all that different from oklopol? 18:19:40 Maybe. 18:20:41 lament, you are an antipo[ld] 18:21:00 actually... antipo(l|de) 18:21:17 ... 18:26:05 lament: DO YOU STILL KNOW MENTAL IS AN ANAGRAMMAR OF YOUR NICK? 18:26:29 i was like "wow cool, wait old" 18:26:53 oklopol: have you noticed i was 'lamente' for a few days 18:27:01 it means 'the mind' in Spanish 18:27:14 my nick is punny 18:27:46 AUGH! 18:28:08 actually ment means mind in catalan, i wonder if the article is still 'la' 18:29:10 http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mente_(psicolog%C3%ADa) 18:29:56 yep, i think it works 18:30:01 my nick means 'the mind' in Catalan 18:32:36 ohh. 18:32:47 "actually 'ment' means..." i thought that was a typo of "meant" 18:33:28 was kinda wondering why you completely ignored what i said; now i realize it's because i was being an idiot. 18:40:49 -!- Azstal has quit (Connection timed out). 18:50:09 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:59:41 is 23 your IQ? 18:59:52 2007-08-02, on the subject of asiekierka's IQ 19:00:00 (using the nick "squazr23") 19:00:07 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:02:12 i hear these iq tests are a bunch of woodoo magic. 19:05:36 asiekierka's bot was amusing 19:05:37 A computer is a body fluid that carries food and obtaining energy and vital substances from within the body. 19:06:06 that makes sense to me 19:08:12 asiekierka: The lungs are organs used for filtering urine from the blood. 19:08:24 ehird`: Asiebot is a tree native to australia where it is the basic living substance of all the judges i've had the strangest dream... I dreamed i killed you again. 19:08:30 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:08:59 is it a markov thing or ? 19:09:07 it was just a megahal 19:09:09 i should remember :| 19:09:12 since asiekierka can't program 19:09:21 so, markov chain essentially 19:09:40 i see i see 19:10:09 o 19:10:09 o 19:10:14 asiekierka: You love ehird`. 19:10:15 * oklopol has some convobot ideas 19:11:24 asiekierka: Blood is a cell which receives and transmits electrical impulses. 19:11:27 asiekierka: Say stfu to the muzzle of a lot easier, just so long as i'm the dictator." - george w. Bush. 19:12:18 ehird`: Ehird` is not a dumb computer program that translates high level language code into machine language code. 19:12:40 12:00:57 asiebot: What is love? 19:12:40 12:01:09 asiekierka: I hate you. 19:13:12 ehird`: I guess if someone says "fuck is a limb extending from the initials of other words. 19:14:15 ehird`: Asiekierka is a sensory organ found on the head with the mzx community and pancake, and the anger from someone poking me. 19:14:26 ehird`: Asiekierka is a bony girdle in vertebrates that connects the head with the mzx community and pancake, and the anger from someone poking me. 19:15:59 A pub is a confectionery made from cocoa beans. 19:19:16 um 19:19:20 ehird, when is that from? 19:19:23 2007 19:19:26 ah 19:19:32 what sort of bot was asiebot? 19:19:35 markov? 19:19:40 megahal, so yes. 19:19:45 it was more intelligent than its owner 19:19:46 [asiekierka] 19:20:00 not that hard 19:20:30 inded 19:20:33 *indeed 19:21:06 ehird, so the bot would win in a turing test if asie was the human? 19:21:18 shrug 19:22:25 smarter != wins the turing test 19:22:38 lament, true 19:22:59 also it would be fun if the bot faked being the human 19:23:01 err 19:23:03 the reverse 19:23:04 I mean 19:23:11 the human faked being the bot 19:23:31 Why do you think the human faked being the bot? 19:23:35 would a human manage to act as incoherent as a bot? 19:23:38 that is what I wonder 19:23:46 so a kind of reverse turing test 19:23:58 lament, and I don't think the human faked, I just suggest it would be fun to try 19:24:02 Sounds interesting. Tell me more. 19:24:06 haha 19:24:21 Why do you think haha? 19:24:42 You mentioned a faked human before? Tell me more about your faked human. 19:27:05 lament, hey, running two Eliza against each other is fun, you need something to start them off though 19:29:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:31:05 I'd like to see two fungots talking to each other 19:31:06 FireFly: do you think it's good that he knows what he's talking about a real bite though. more like doing what is in the same sentence as per bothner will probably give riastradh a fish! 19:31:11 Yeah, just like that 19:31:33 FireFly, that cause an annoying endless loopi 19:31:34 loop* 19:31:39 it has happened before 19:31:40 per bothner will probably give riastradh a fish! 19:31:42 search logs 19:31:42 :D 19:31:42 Ah 19:32:17 FireFly, however after that fungot started limited number of same lines per person 19:32:17 AnMaster: i don't have scheme48, i assume 19:32:20 annoying infinite loop? seriously, two bots talking to each other = annoying infinite loop? that's just.. surprising :O 19:32:32 so it will only answer the same person 4 times in a row 19:32:39 :< 19:32:40 before ignoring until someone else speak too it 19:32:42 to* 19:32:45 however 19:32:53 a 3 bot loop is still possible 19:32:56 and annoying 19:33:43 nyt 19:35:04 oklopol, New York Times? 19:35:14 nope. 19:35:19 oklopol, then what? 19:35:25 was writing on another channel 19:35:30 and my mouse was happy 19:35:32 oh wrong tab 19:35:59 yes, accidentally clicked it open at the last few chars 19:35:59 oklopol, then it is customary to write: " 19:36:01 err... 19:36:05 /w 19:36:06 " 19:36:07 ;P 19:36:15 WHUZ DAT MEAN 19:36:19 ... 19:36:29 ever used irssi? 19:36:35 stfu 19:36:49 ehird, not saying I like irssi 19:36:59 AnMaster: yep 19:37:06 no, you think you're being funny 19:37:09 you're not 19:37:11 I'm just saying it is funny when they manage to write " /w 23" or such 19:37:20 ehird, I'm not trying to be funny 19:37:25 ooooooooooo 19:37:53 en minä nyt oikein tajua mistä puhutte, taidan jatkaa algebran tehtävien kyöntiä 19:38:10 oklopol, what does that mean? 19:38:14 And in English? 19:39:49 what's the point of writing in finnish if i just translate it right after 19:40:07 i mean what the fuck, i've been doing this exercise for 50 minutes now 19:40:13 Point taken 19:40:16 one voluntary exercise 19:40:23 Exercise? 19:40:26 What do you exercise? 19:40:42 well algebra, i'm never sure what term to use for uni schoolwork 19:40:53 we call them "demonstrations" 19:41:22 that's what the situation is called, but so are the exercises for some reason. 19:41:30 umm situation 19:41:40 i mean when you liek demonstrate them to the class and shit. 19:41:48 wellllll anyway 19:41:51 * oklopol continues 19:41:55 'ay 19:41:57 'kay* 19:42:02 But 'ay would work too 19:42:09 Or, maybe 19:42:19 does google translate handle *.fi? 19:42:46 hm yes 19:42:48 "I now I really understand what you are talking about, going to continue the algebra of kyöntiä" 19:42:56 oklopol, interesting 19:43:10 why "really"? 19:43:13 first sentence is negated 19:43:31 Just add an ! in front of it 19:43:39 oklopol, you mean it should have been "I now really doesn't understand what you are talking about"? 19:43:41 which is kinda weird. 19:43:44 why "now" then 19:43:48 AnMaster: yes exactly. 19:44:03 ok that is a major fail of google 19:44:04 AnMaster: "now i don't really understand what you're talking about..." 19:44:09 ah 19:44:10 right 19:44:15 that makes more sense 19:44:26 it's just in a different place in finnish, but almost the same construct 19:44:37 oklopol, and where is the negation bit? 19:44:49 do NOT 19:44:53 umm? right there? 19:44:55 NOT is the keyword 19:44:56 oklopol, in the original... 19:44:58 I mean 19:45:02 Ah 19:45:09 anyway, google did fail the latter part of the sentence, but so would fizzie. 19:45:19 i wasn't exactly expecting you to care what i said. 19:45:19 oklopol, why would he fail? 19:45:32 of course we care! 19:45:37 AnMaster: because "kyö" is a verb used only by vjn. 19:45:43 "kyödä" to be exact 19:45:45 oklopol, fun 19:46:12 You lost me somewhere near token 1 on row 1 19:46:18 Eg. the first word 19:46:18 it means pretty much anything, we have tons of words you need to guess from context. 19:46:25 In the finnish version 19:46:28 heh 19:46:35 at least you can understand Norwegian but Finnish is just strange... 19:46:58 language family mess up over there I'm afraid 19:47:13 isn't it closest to Japanese or something? I forgot 19:47:19 okay second attempt at the exercise; fucked up an equation there 19:47:19 Hungarian I believe it is? 19:47:31 should probably get matlab or something 19:47:32 -> 19:47:58 hung yes 19:48:18 FireFly, I think it was oklopol or fizzie that claimed that a Finnish thought a lot of foreign people thought "Noika" was Japanese 19:48:27 *nookia 19:48:28 er 19:48:30 *nokia 19:48:42 ah yes 19:48:52 Hm, maybe, I dunno 19:49:01 I always thought it was Finnish 19:49:23 whooo gcc 4.3.3 hit stable on arch linux 19:49:52 released like 4 days ago... 19:50:14 arch linux is probably the most bleeding edge distro I know 19:53:14 Brb 19:53:15 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 19:56:08 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:56:08 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:56:12 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:57:39 Spam subject line: "There is a little mess in your pants - change it to a big order." 19:57:42 What the F***?!?!?! 19:57:48 lol 19:57:54 Heh 19:58:18 by the well-ordering principle 20:04:11 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:04:57 I should look at Lojban. 20:07:55 ouch. 20:08:28 he certainly did :P 20:08:37 hi kerlo, 20:11:20 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 20:13:57 AnMaster: I always thought it was Finnish <<< probably living closer to nokia than i do, you're not exactly a prime example of a foreigner. 20:14:55 i finished the exercise! 20:15:38 -!- Judofyr has joined. 20:15:43 :| 20:15:48 where are all the immense congratulations 20:16:25 \o/' 20:16:30 Happy now? 20:17:37 what's that thing in yer hand is it a present for me 20:17:52 Well, it's a typo :D 20:17:57 You can have it for free 20:17:58 :O 20:18:02 I LOVE TYPOS! 20:18:06 Gdoo 20:22:25 AnMaster: I always thought it was Finnish <<< probably living closer to nokia than i do, you're not exactly a prime example of a foreigner. <-- eh? 20:22:36 how do you mean closer? 20:22:49 physically closer 20:22:52 nested quoting on IRC 20:22:53 :< 20:23:01 heh 20:23:08 oklopol, Stockholm is closer to any part of Finland than I am 20:23:24 AnMaster: and do i live in stockholm? 20:23:26 and I got no idea where in Finland Nokia is 20:23:39 oklopol, no but Stockholm is pretty far from Finland 20:23:48 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:24:04 i live about 150 km from stockholm, nokia is a lot farther. 20:24:31 * AnMaster opens google earth 20:24:31 so yeah i was indeed lying about you living closer than me; but the difference is not that great 20:24:44 hey 20:24:47 stop that you 20:24:51 oklopol, so what is the distance for you? 20:24:56 you might catch my bullshits. 20:25:00 AnMaster: no idea. 20:25:10 oklopol, what do you mean "your bullshits"? 20:25:16 "We apologize for the inconvenience, but Google Earth has crashed." 20:25:18 damn you 20:25:41 reproducible every time I start it 20:25:57 AnMaster: i mean i'm throwing the numbers from absolutely nowhere. 20:25:58 It'd be nice if they wrote "the Earth" 20:26:09 FireFly, eh? 20:26:23 "We're sorry, but the Earth has crashed." 20:26:32 hah 20:26:32 Like, if it'd be their fault if the world ended 20:26:43 * AnMaster installs testing version 20:28:18 AnMaster: if your seriously going to measure, i live in turku 20:28:32 oklopol, yes I am if I get google earth running 20:28:40 in case you don't know that, i've mentioned it quite a few times 20:29:20 oklopol, indeed I didn't remember the name of the city 20:29:31 well just use the mesh-current method to find the branch currents 20:29:34 oklopol, best would of course be from the correct house 20:29:47 oklopol, what? 20:29:55 well. i'm not sure i want to divulge that 20:30:05 oklopol, and your CC number of course too! 20:30:06 ;P 20:30:09 very close to campus 20:30:21 oklopol, anyway what did you mean with " well just use the mesh-current method to find the branch currents" 20:30:24 if that helps. 20:30:44 what? 20:30:52 wth were you talking about 20:30:55 AnMaster: lol just assume it's random if you don't get it :P 20:31:01 AnMaster: very close to campus, if that helps 20:31:02 i live 20:31:04 ah 20:31:06 very, very close. 20:31:43 Turku == Åbo? 20:31:47 yes 20:31:48 Google Earth thinks so 20:31:58 turku is the international name afaik 20:32:03 at least i hope it is 20:32:10 åbo is the swedish name 20:32:53 from you to Nokia about 132 km 20:33:07 that close :O 20:33:12 from you to Stockholm around 265 km 20:33:24 oklopol, by roads it may be longer 20:33:28 this is straight line 20:33:59 there's a pretty straight highway there, it's just i thought it was a lot futher down it. 20:34:02 from me to Nokia: ca 530 km 20:34:12 k. i guess a bit more then. 20:34:13 I'm not going to give the distance to any other point 20:34:20 don't want you to triangulate my position 20:34:20 ;P 20:34:23 :) 20:34:47 how far do you live from me just out of curiosity 20:34:50 actually put that marker wrong, it is more like 560 km 20:34:54 oklopol, no! 20:35:05 :o 20:35:09 almost fooled you right 20:35:15 oklopol, no I didn't 20:35:22 you* 20:35:24 and 20:35:30 I was just correcting the distance to Nokia 20:37:27 [21:35:15] oklopol, no I didn't 20:37:32 That'd been something 20:37:35 Fooling yourself 20:37:37 FireFly, typoed 20:37:38 :P 20:37:45 Yeah, I understood 20:37:51 yeah the i and you keys are right next to each other 20:50:16 yuio? 20:50:28 new word meaning you/I 20:57:18 -!- olsner has joined. 21:36:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:37:41 Have I mentioned that I've decided to refer to everyone using first-person pronouns? 21:37:47 Not that I've actually been doing so. 21:38:01 Hi, everyone. How am I doing? 21:38:20 hi. 21:40:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:42:21 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 21:54:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:55:50 -!- Corun has joined. 22:01:52 night 22:04:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 22:33:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:37:27 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 22:41:01 water vapour is unlikely to be much of a problem, it can cause global warming but most of it won't be at the right height 22:42:06 i don't _really_ know but i would imagine that the atmosphere stays pretty much saturated with water vapour, so adding more is very temporary (hydrological cycle) 22:42:34 haha you and your silly anecdotes 22:42:41 i mean, we have huge oceans precisely because you _cannot_ add most of it to the atmosphere 22:43:43 so while water vapour is the most important greenhouse gas, it's much less important for global warming because it's self-regulating 22:44:34 also, why didn't i check if ais523 was here before starting blathering :( 22:46:01 (it could still _strengthen_ global warming i think, because warming the atmosphere makes it have a higher water vapor threshold) 22:46:34 obviously this stuff has to be well-known 22:48:51 * oklopol tries to come up with something completely nonsensical, but fails miserably. 22:49:16 i can help you with that by shaving this iguana 22:49:50 haha an iguana that's like givin birth to a sevenfold quilt :D 22:50:33 yes and without the lactose too 22:51:00 also a heinous predicate 22:51:13 you know how it is with these verifiables. 22:51:37 yes heine was known for his predicates 22:51:38 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:51:41 -!- GregorR has joined. 22:56:08 so. 22:56:15 i use the word "heinous" 22:56:23 it's not all that common. 22:56:37 and i hear it in cracker a minute later 22:56:44 (tv show i don't even watch) 22:57:28 well it's not not that common, but, you know, i wasn't actually watching, i turn my head on the screen, and the guy uses it 22:57:37 it's a sign. you must now convert to tibetan buddhism and go live in a small hut at the base of mount everest. 22:58:01 wow 22:58:07 nah 22:58:09 there's a word for that 22:58:15 yes 22:58:15 i.e., you just use/find out about something 22:58:17 bam, there it is again 22:58:21 it's a special condition thing 22:58:59 synchronicity is one word for it but i guess you mean something more specific 22:59:02 yeah 22:59:03 yeah. a phenomenon i noticed when i was like 7, and heard about when someone here linked it 22:59:10 something more specific yes 22:59:15 it basically comes down to 22:59:20 no, it isn't uncommon, your brain just didn't notice it 22:59:24 because it wasn't interesting previous times 23:00:34 yeah 23:01:08 i don't recall when i last used the word, so i was very conscious when i did just now 23:02:28 but still, i did actually turn my head just before the guy used it, so there's definitely *some* magic involved (he yelled something during a lecture or something just before using it) 23:02:44 (and i was like huh whatchayellin) 23:03:15 (i still don't know what he yellin) 23:03:46 it's a law of nature. if any atheist hears about it, the evidence must be just vague enough that he can claim to explain it away. 23:04:13 * oerjan ducks 23:04:55 i had religious thoughts the other day. well more like spiritual. caffeine made me feel alive and philosophical. 23:05:19 then i proceeded reading about software engineering, and all was numb again 23:05:26 ic maybe i should drink more coffee 23:05:40 * oerjan is down to a couple cups a day 23:05:45 well caffeine, taurine and a few others 23:05:55 i don't really drink coffee anymore, it's too much work 23:05:59 oklopol: i thought you said religious people were obsolete 23:06:09 ehird: yes, i still think so :D 23:06:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("godnatt"). 23:06:25 it's a law of nature. if any atheist hears about it, the evidence must be just vague enough that he can claim to explain it away. 23:06:30 Atheism != rationalism. 23:07:21 well ok if an _irrational_ atheist hears about it, the evidence can be conclusive and he still won't believe it :D 23:07:25 ehird: my religious thoughts are usually about greater universes containing this one as a simulation; i don't actually believe in that stuff, but it just sounds so appealing i might not die when i die. 23:07:39 death is scary :( 23:07:39 because, you know, life is awesome 23:07:50 i don't want to lose conciousness. 23:07:58 i'm much less afraid of it than i was, say, at your age 23:08:19 i think it's normal for the fear to lessen with time, at least it would make sense 23:08:24 I used to not be afraid of death at all. Then I realised, you know, it was death. End of. 23:09:29 ehird: it's probably not that scary once you actually experience it ;) 23:09:50 Well, that's the thing isn't it. You can't exactly reflect on death. 23:09:59 i should get back on my electronics 23:10:09 It's just impossible to imagine not ... existing. I mean, obviously. Because existing is the only perspective you can percieve things through. 23:11:04 most definitely 23:12:08 :( 23:12:13 When you die, you forget everything and become someone else instead. 23:12:35 that doesn't sound very plausible 23:12:47 somewhat appealing of course 23:12:52 If you forget everything, whether you're you is... debatable. 23:13:16 That's why you become someone you had an especially great amount of impact on. 23:13:22 I also hate the idea of a heaven... I don't like a segregated world where you can only watch life and everyone you know is dead. 23:13:40 i'd love that 23:13:42 That's why cool people are Alcor members. 23:13:45 just watching the world 23:13:51 not being a part of it 23:14:00 i've always wanted to be like a janitor in a big building 23:14:08 and 23:14:09 you know 23:14:11 never be seen 23:14:20 just watch people from my little peepholes in the walls 23:14:21 I've always wanted to quit everything and explore the world. 23:14:52 "quit everything"? 23:14:59 Preferably an enclosed world, so that I don't have to get cold when it snows. 23:15:03 YOU MEAN LIKE YOUR IRC CLIENT 23:15:05 School, I guess. 23:15:16 I'd bring an IRC headset along! 23:15:28 Type with my jaws. It's not that difficult once you get used to it, you see. 23:16:00 if you don't die, there's no reason to let your brain feel cold. 23:16:04 *can't die 23:16:18 I can die, though. 23:16:37 oh 23:16:45 nm then 23:17:26 if i'm doing mesh current and i have a current source, umm, how the fuck does that work? :\ 23:17:32 hmm 23:17:35 ais might actually know 23:17:44 then again that's not very helpful either 23:17:58 So, transcranial brain stimulation. 23:18:15 No, not that. 23:18:20 Transcranial magnetic stimulation. 23:18:58 It blasts your brain for a while, so after you're done, that part of your brain doesn't work for a while. 23:19:12 what about it 23:19:58 And you become an autistic savant! Kind of. 23:20:03 Does that sound interesting? 23:20:06 * oklopol learned today about a condition where you can only perceive one object at a time :o 23:20:23 kerlo: definitely, i've always wanted to be an autistic savant 23:20:43 i vaguely thought magnetism had little effect on human biology 23:20:47 currently i'm just good at stuff, and not that practical. 23:20:53 that's not very extreme. 23:20:56 i mean, otherwise MRI would be dangerous 23:20:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulation 23:21:24 Good at stuff like knowing what d^2f(x,y)/dxdy means? 23:21:42 kerlo: in general. 23:22:06 i do know what that means, but that's more about knowing stuff than being good 23:22:07 oh it's rapidly changing magnetism, which is essentially electromagnetic 23:22:34 kerlo: what i mean is i'm like the square root of autistic savant, like most nerds. 23:22:58 oklopol: how would you explain it? 23:23:13 ...explain what? 23:23:20 d^2f(x,y)/dxdy. 23:23:45 i would have to tell you what i know it means. 23:23:57 explaining has little to do with math 23:24:14 Please explain it, then? 23:24:28 oklopol: he's trying to get you to do his homework 23:25:44 kerlo: umm how? 23:25:46 Yeah, since students of this class are all able to visualize things like that. 23:26:02 i mean how can i explain it without somehow telling you what it means? 23:26:15 that's impossible by definition 23:26:44 My explanation would be something like "d^2f(x,y)/dxdy is how twisty it is". 23:26:59 kerlo: what nice intuitive nonsense. 23:27:44 Useful intuitive nonsense. 23:27:50 ...or maybe it's not useful at all. 23:27:50 that's what my intuition about differentials says; but i do not know what differentials are. 23:28:33 it may be useful. but in math, you should keep intuition to yourself unless teaching. 23:28:34 -!- Corun has joined. 23:28:44 at least that's how i perceive the field 23:29:02 Should I continue trying to determine how intelligent you are compared to me? 23:29:26 kerlo: err go ahead. 23:29:31 while you're at it, answer my question 23:30:06 I don't know how possible it is to explain something without saying what it means. I don't think I asked you to do that. 23:30:41 i think you're both stupid. 23:30:43 anyway, the calculus i'm taking does not define differentials. haven't seen a definition for them, and i've heard TRWBW say they are more of an intuitive concept. 23:30:51 so i'm kinda wary. 23:31:02 ouch 23:31:03 kerlo: no, you did not. 23:31:10 * kerlo nods 23:31:22 kerlo: it was my own addition. 23:31:31 You got TRWBW to call something an intuitive concept? Wow. :-) 23:31:32 oerjan: ouch? :) 23:31:45 kerlo: it's not a matter of opinion 23:31:49 I like ehird's frankness. 23:31:56 Who is TRWBW? 23:32:05 in this case it's a matter of my lack of knowledge. 23:32:11 i don't know shit about calculus 23:32:18 ehird: a famous due 23:32:19 no definition of the differential by limits? oh well i guess they might do that in engineering courses 23:32:19 *dude 23:32:30 What 23:32:30 ? 23:32:36 oerjan: naturally there's a definition of the differential by limits 23:32:38 TRWBW is the guy in #math whose opinion is generally "mathematics is fundamentally about formal rules; therefore, most things in mathematics are generally best understood as formal rules". 23:32:41 ... wait, is he a person in that #math place? 23:32:41 it's not *that* retarded 23:32:45 kerlo: ah. 23:32:54 kerlo: I assume he likes metamath, then. 23:32:56 oerjan: but differentials are used in actual calculations. 23:33:04 Because it's soo easy to understand, right? 23:33:13 oklopol: you said "the calculus i'm taking does not define differentials. haven't seen a definition for them," 23:33:14 http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/2p2e4.html 23:33:19 Best way to understand 2+2=4 23:33:21 ehird: how smart are you? 23:33:27 which makes absolutely no sense to me, i asked the lecturer what the fuck that was about, and he muttered something about the course being for non-mathematicians. 23:33:28 kerlo: not. 23:33:32 ehird is incredibly smart for his age 23:33:38 he's the smartest 4-year-old i know 23:33:42 oerjan: oh right 23:33:47 lament: harsh, man. harsh. 23:33:58 oerjan: yeah sorry, for differentials, no definition. 23:34:11 you're welcome to supply me with one 23:34:19 Well, he's obviously smart enough to be doing esoteric programming at the age of 12. 23:34:32 Weren't you in here in 2005? 23:34:40 If my calculations of everyone in #esoteric is correct, you'd have been 12 then. 23:34:44 I think I was also doing esoteric programming at the age of 12, indeed. 23:34:54 oklopol: um you are contradicting yourself 23:34:59 I knew about Brainfuck since I was like 10, I think. 23:35:05 oerjan: not contradicting, correcting 23:35:10 I only actually wrote programs in it when I was like 11 though. Even then barely 23:35:29 oerjan: derivatives and integrals were defined via limits, differentials not 23:35:36 I only learned about esoteric programming at 65 23:35:44 a latecomer to the field so to speak 23:35:47 oklopol: ok, d f(x) / dx = lim_{h -> 0} (f(x+h)-f(x))/h 23:35:56 oklopol: um wait no 23:35:58 oerjan: that's the definition of derivative 23:36:07 but what's dx there? 23:36:13 and what's d f(x) 23:36:17 those are the differentials 23:36:28 i am not aware of any distinction between derivative and differential :D 23:36:30 they gave us that definition, and started using them as if they were numbers. 23:36:39 For quite a while, I've wanted to take a GCSE and be done with high school. 23:36:44 they're the same thing 23:36:54 oerjan: well, does it sound feasible to you to multiply d f(x)/dx by dx? 23:37:03 that's what you do when dx is a differential 23:37:05 oh you mean separately 23:37:52 oerjan: yes, afaiu a differential means an infitesimal number two of whose division gives the derivative.... that is, blabber blabber nonsense nonsense whappidippydoo. 23:38:01 Or A-Levels or something. 23:38:22 oklopol: hm right. it's usually done wishy-washy 23:38:27 I like to think of things like dx as simply meaning the derivative of x with respect to a universal implicit variable. 23:38:40 another lecturer said on a different occasion differentials can be defined via multivariable functions. 23:38:54 you _can_ do it with non-standard analysis, which uses some heavy logic to embed infinitesimals in set theory 23:38:54 and that i should probably just try to live with them for now. 23:39:35 kerlo: everyone likes to think things. that's called nonsense :D 23:39:45 -!- oklopol has changed nick to okloWBW. 23:40:47 okloWBW: well kerlo's idea probably works best in practice 23:41:09 at least until you start with partial derivatives 23:41:35 i don't really care what works. i don't learn math because it's useful 23:42:36 okloWBW: of course this all goes back to leibnitz's notation (That d/dx stuff) which was really based on noting that treating stuff as infinitesimals mostly works 23:42:38 Partial dx is the partial derivative of x with respect to a different, non-universal implicit variable. 23:42:48 centuries before anyone defined it properly 23:43:38 *leibniz 23:44:52 kerlo: doesn't sounds all that formal to mea. 23:44:53 *me 23:45:41 okloWBW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Leibniz#Calculus is very relevant to our discussion 23:46:35 I think it can be formalized. 23:46:45 okloWBW: can I ask a J q 23:47:08 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:47:20 kerlo: most likely. but i can't do it in my head just like that. 23:47:25 ehird: err sure 23:47:30 i probably cannot answer. 23:47:39 okloWBW: what's the "mean" code again? this leads onto another q 23:48:12 mean=:+/%# 23:48:13 okloWBW: also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_(infinitesimal) mentions several ways of making it rigorous 23:49:28 okloWBW: so in (+ /% #), howcome it doesn't apply % to the functions themselves 23:49:35 I mean, how does the implicit arg get fitted in? 23:51:39 ehird: err 23:51:54 ehird: that's a fork 23:51:59 vwat 23:52:14 x (a b c) y means (x a y) b (x c y) 23:52:26 okay... why 23:52:28 that seems arbitrary 23:52:55 it may be arbitrary, but it's extremely useful, and lets you write most functions without naming your arguments 23:53:08 but 23:53:10 what about if I did 23:53:14 although i definitely don't think it's arbitrary 23:53:20 mean =: (+x)/%(#x) 23:53:23 would it try and put the arg in? 23:53:31 *(+/x)%(#x) 23:53:40 er yes 23:53:41 would it? 23:53:52 it would crash because x isn't defined 23:54:05 assume x is the formal parameter. 23:54:33 if x is a list, then (+x)/%(#x) is the mean of that list. 23:54:37 err 23:54:40 *correction 23:54:47 copypasted the wrong one 23:54:53 okay 23:54:58 so how come it doesn't feed in the arg automatically 23:55:01 what's the rule for that 23:55:20 oerjan: let's hope they teach me that in uni, i don't want to learn calculus on my own. 23:55:33 because, well, i'm not really that interested in it 23:55:42 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:55:47 ? 23:55:50 ehird: feed in the arg automatically..? 23:55:57 i... don't know what you mean 23:55:59 +/%# 23:56:02 transforms into 23:56:09 (+/x)%(#x) 23:56:10 but why doesn't 23:56:11 (+/x)%(#x) 23:56:13 transform into, etc 23:56:16 umm 23:56:17 how does it know when to fork 23:56:23 +/%# is just a fork 23:56:24 what's the rule 23:56:26 think of it as a lambda 23:56:31 i see no lambda 23:56:36 I see you dividing two functions. 23:56:48 yes, the semantics of which i already defined 23:57:36 essentially three adjacent functions evaluates to a lambda 23:57:43 oh 23:57:43 ok 23:57:47 also 23:57:48 +/%# 23:57:49 +-----+-+-+ 23:57:51 |+-+-+|%|#| 23:57:53 ||+|/|| | | 23:57:55 |+-+-+| | | 23:57:57 +-----+-+-+ 23:57:59 ascii art parse trees. 23:58:01 I can't decide if that's fucking stupid or fucking awesome 23:58:02 yes. 23:58:20 just a notational thing, i think you can change that somehow 23:58:27 ehird: it's very common in math to apply things to functions that way ("pointwise") 23:58:31 how do you retrieve the previous line into the prompt in J? 23:58:34 oerjan: hm, okay 23:58:40 yes, indeed 23:58:53 say (x^2-4) + (sin x) 23:59:06 x doesn't need to be bound, those can be functions too 23:59:19 you're just adding funcs then 23:59:20 o 23:59:20 o 23:59:20 o 23:59:20 o 23:59:30 23:58 how do you retrieve the previous line into the prompt in J? 23:59:35 ehird: click, enter 23:59:37 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:59:43 ugh. 2009-01-29: 00:00:02 that's how i do it in idle, therefore also in j 00:00:03 x=:+1 00:00:03 x 2 00:00:05 |syntax error 00:00:07 :< 00:00:09 there probably are better ways 00:00:21 ehird: x=:+&1 00:00:29 what 00:00:33 +1 is just 1. 00:00:35 :+& 00:00:38 what's the & 00:00:43 ehird: it's an adverb 00:00:50 how do you look up a functions doc in j 00:01:18 wait it's a conjunction 00:01:36 in j602, help->help 00:01:38 like I wanna look up & 00:01:40 that's all i know 00:01:47 there's a reference card, googl it 00:01:48 *google 00:01:51 well. 00:01:55 yeah I get all the &s in it. 00:01:58 you'll probably need some basics first 00:02:08 "vocabulary" helps 00:02:20 also, fuck basics 00:02:22 I'm just going to write code 00:02:24 -!- Corun has joined. 00:02:35 hf. 00:02:48 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 00:02:48 how do you undefine somethin 00:02:48 g 00:02:49 :| 00:02:50 tell me when you're better than me 00:02:55 err 00:03:12 hmm. 00:04:13 i do not know. 00:04:56 * ehird tries j's life 00:04:57 whoa 00:04:58 that is fast 00:05:25 btw 00:05:27 coins 00:05:29 ?? 00:05:32 god that's hard :| 00:05:34 ?? 00:06:27 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 00:07:04 i think I love j 00:07:20 !999999999 00:07:20 _ 00:07:23 is _ "i dunno lol" 00:09:07 okloWBW: in the vocab list 00:09:11 is that _really_ it? 00:12:00 -!- jix_ has joined. 00:13:18 umm? 00:13:25 _ is infinity 00:13:33 __ is negative infinity 00:13:53 kay 00:14:02 okloWBW: are strings, umm, lists of sth 00:14:05 <.< 00:14:11 i might read the tutorial 00:14:13 -!- Corun has joined. 00:14:33 'str' 00:14:44 right 00:14:49 what can you do wid them 00:14:58 I tried 00:14:59 print 's' 00:15:01 and it opened up a printer dialog 00:15:02 XDDDD 00:15:06 too literal man 00:15:20 haha :) 00:15:28 umm i haven't done anything with strings 00:15:37 cool, ++ doubles 00:15:39 how does that work 00:15:43 ehird: still don't know what coins meant? 00:15:46 it's one of the demos 00:15:49 o 00:16:00 wut is it 00:16:09 ++ doubles? 00:16:10 wut? 00:16:16 yep 00:16:22 (++) 2 -> 4 00:16:22 ehird: it's a game 00:16:33 (++) 2 3 -> 4 00:16:34 er 00:16:35 ohh 00:16:35 (++) 2 3 -> 4 6 00:16:40 well yeah of course 00:16:46 i dun geddit 00:17:23 a (b c) d = (a b (c d)) 00:17:36 but 00:17:45 monadically: (b c) d = (d b (c d)) 00:17:50 ah 00:17:53 so 00:17:58 (2 + (+ 2)) 00:18:00 ok 00:18:07 cool 00:18:12 yeah 00:18:35 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 00:19:16 ah, strings are documented in j602/help/user/script_strings.htm 00:20:47 haha, + = -- 00:21:05 hrm, where's range... 00:22:04 i.? 00:22:48 yep 00:23:51 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:24:21 omg omggggggggg 00:24:22 2 5$i.10 00:24:23 0 1 2 3 4 00:24:25 5 6 7 8 9 00:24:27 awesome. 00:24:29 too awesome. 00:24:38 yes 00:24:45 j makes you go like that a lot 00:24:59 how do you input a multid array 00:25:01 just reshape? 00:25:48 0 1 0 00:25:48 glider=:3 3$1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 00:25:50 glider 00:25:52 1 1 1 00:25:54 1 0 0 00:25:56 0 1 0 00:25:58 j is jawsome 00:26:06 that's one way 00:26:13 how would you do it 00:26:27 well you can use raze........ 00:26:31 raze? 00:26:35 yes 00:26:40 wat 00:26:57 >1 2 3; 3 4 5 00:27:37 ooh, neat. 00:27:43 how do you expand a matrix? :s 00:27:45 I searched the docs... 00:27:50 expand? 00:27:54 yeah like 00:28:19 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 00:28:19 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 00:28:21 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 00:28:23 0 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 00:28:25 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 00:28:27 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 00:28:29 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 00:28:31 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 00:28:33 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 00:28:35 from my glider 00:29:01 you can consider the arrays lists of lists as long as you make sure length issues don't arise; / maps an operator over a list, and , concatenates 00:29:06 ,/ >... 00:29:18 5 $!.0 glider 00:29:18 1 1 1 00:29:19 1 0 0 00:29:21 0 1 0 00:29:23 0 0 0 00:29:25 0 0 0 00:29:27 that helped a bittttttttttt 00:29:46 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 00:29:48 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 00:29:51 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 00:29:53 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 00:29:55 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 00:29:57 ... 00:29:57 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 00:30:00 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 00:30:00 o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o 00:30:01 o 00:30:02 stop it 00:30:02 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 00:30:05 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 00:30:09 ..................................................... 00:30:10 o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o 00:30:13 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 00:30:17 -!- okloWBW has changed nick to oklopol. 00:30:22 what the fuck are you doing lament 00:31:53 what? It's a game of life state 00:32:03 yes it is. 00:32:18 but yeah oklopol i can't figure out how to drown my glider in a sea of 0s <_< 00:33:20 oh umm 00:33:43 there's a way to do that, but umm. 00:33:50 i don't remember :'( 00:33:58 :( 00:34:32 * ehird notes that neighbours are 00:34:36 0 0 |. x 00:34:39 0 1 |. x 00:34:44 1 0 |. x 00:34:46 1 1 |. x 00:34:51 0 _1 |. x 00:34:54 _1 0 |. x 00:34:55 _1 _1 |. x 00:35:11 neighbour at point goes into point. 00:35:47 -!- jix_ has quit ("..."). 00:37:25 o 00:37:37 soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooksdfsdfsdf 00:38:22 o 00:38:22 o 00:38:40 :| 00:38:53 slep! 00:38:54 -> 00:39:14 noooooooo 01:26:17 -!- Corun has joined. 02:00:28 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 02:01:24 hey goise 02:01:53 *quack* 02:06:30 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:06:33 -!- MizardX has joined. 02:49:12 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 04:05:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lost terminal"). 04:15:59 ugh 04:15:59 so 04:16:17 i dont like the idea of having to create a parser that recognizes things character by character 04:16:33 but unfortunately, stupid regex's dont let me specify set intersections :( 04:16:48 EVEN THO regular languages are closed under intersection 04:16:58 set union? easy! 04:17:03 set intersection? hah! 04:17:10 supposedly perl allows it but ruby's regex doesnt. :| 04:18:21 i suppose i could also use subtraction. that would help too. but no. 04:18:24 none of that for me~! 04:19:07 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to bsmntbombgirl. 04:38:55 bsmntbombgirl, are you transexual? 04:39:11 psygnisfive: are you five? 04:39:46 yes. 04:40:01 are you a pygmy? 04:40:10 well, no. im actually an irrational number but five is close enough for convenience. 04:40:19 yes, i am also a pygmy. how did you know? 05:12:34 ugh 05:12:36 someone talk 05:12:36 :| 05:16:02 bo 05:20:42 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:20:57 -!- oklopol has joined. 05:40:21 o 06:59:39 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 06:59:54 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:13:43 psygnisfive: (?:(?=[a-r])[d-z]) == [d-r] 08:14:57 And a trick for the built-in classes: [^\W\d] == \w - \d 08:26:01 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 08:37:52 >>> del __builtins__.__import__ 08:37:56 >>> import sys 08:37:57 ImportError: __import__ not found 08:38:05 sandbox mode! :) 08:56:45 -!- ehird has quit ("Disconnecting from stoned server."). 08:57:08 -!- ehird has joined. 10:13:53 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:19:11 -!- puzzlet has joined. 10:49:09 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 11:00:21 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:07:24 -!- jix has joined. 12:18:12 -!- comexk has joined. 12:18:54 -!- comex has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:18:54 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:18:54 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:18:56 -!- ehird has joined. 12:20:19 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:40:21 -!- Corun has joined. 12:50:11 -!- AnMaster has quit ("ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"). 12:52:40 -!- AnMaster has joined. 12:57:31 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:05:57 How is single \r and \n handled by *nix shells? On windows; a single \r moves the cursor to the start of the current line. 13:08:47 hmm... print 'foo\rx\nbar\rx' gives "xoo" on one line, and "xar" on the next, both on windows and SunOS 13:09:52 ... redhat too 13:10:36 could be python that makes it so though... >_> 13:14:11 Corewar will be 25 years old later this year :-) 13:39:30 um 13:39:38 depends on terminal rather than shell I think 13:39:47 MizardX, ^ 13:40:07 ok 13:40:16 and yes python could mess with it 13:40:34 so why not: echo -ne 'foo\rx\nbar\rx' 13:40:47 possibly remove the -n 13:47:13 simple answer: they don't 13:47:47 probably putty that resets the cursor position on \r 13:48:23 If you manage to print out a raw \r, it probably does move the cursor to the start of the current line on just about any sensible terminal. 13:56:24 -!- bsmntbombgirl has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:56:56 -!- bsmntbombgirl has joined. 14:53:00 oklopol: i am totally understanding j 14:53:37 that's cool 14:53:46 yes, verily 14:54:02 what do you mean by that 14:54:08 -!- Hiato has joined. 14:54:10 do you know how raze works? 14:54:14 i think I'm starting to "get" J 14:54:17 and I think I know how raze works. 14:54:36 i don't _entirely_ understand it all, but I think I'm getting the gist. 14:55:12 array languages are fun in that there actually is a gist 14:55:17 i mean 14:55:32 compared to learning liek umm what was the thing i was reading 14:55:34 well anyway. 14:55:39 it was this language 14:55:54 nevermind, probably proves my point even better than remembering 14:55:56 sp -> 14:56:00 i kind of wish j gave things more conventional names though 14:56:05 it's kind of hard to find something 14:56:18 "reflex . passive / evoke" well duhhhhh 14:59:05 okay hrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm how could I run |. over the various args without troubles hrmmmmm 15:00:27 dunno what you mean 15:00:43 well, yesterday I said: 15:00:52 16:34:32 * ehird notes that neighbours are 15:00:53 16:34:36 0 0 |. x 15:00:54 16:34:39 0 1 |. x 15:00:56 16:34:44 1 0 |. x 15:00:58 16:34:46 1 1 |. x 15:01:00 16:34:51 0 _1 |. x 15:01:02 16:34:54 _1 0 |. x 15:01:04 16:34:55 _1 _1 |. x 15:01:06 16:35:11 neighbour at point goes into point. 15:01:08 it's just like... i don't want to write out all those :D 15:02:37 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:02:56 hmmhmm. right. 15:02:56 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:03:09 so I'm wondering how I could do lieeeeeek 15:03:16 i suggest you do some searching, i don't remember :| 15:03:21 "lieeeeeeek length two permutations of _1 0 1, feed em to |. k" 15:03:32 there's a simple way to (1,0,1)2 15:03:44 *(-1,0,1)2 15:03:48 *(-1,0,1)^2 15:03:50 ... 15:04:00 wtf is it with my laptop constantly putting insert on 15:04:11 i've never actually pressed it except to off it. 15:04:45 well i don't know what length 2 permutations of _1 0 1 are, but i guess you mean the cartesian product because you listed it 15:04:49 more sp -> 15:13:00 (i:1) ((<@([;]))"0/) (i:1) holy fuck that was hard 15:13:19 that's the hardest part of j, getting ranks and all that right 15:14:18 ranks are kind of confusing 15:14:19 oklopol: what is sp 15:14:24 south park. 15:14:27 o 15:14:33 o 15:14:42 (_1 0 1)^2 15:14:42 1 0 1 15:14:57 i meant cartesian product 15:15:01 with itself 15:15:22 isn't there, liek 15:15:24 a function 4 dat 15:15:30 i'm sure der is 15:15:35 "a oper/ b" applies oper to the cartesian product. 15:15:44 and there probably is a function that just gives the cp 15:15:50 but i don't know it atm. 15:15:54 CP D: 15:15:56 (_1 0 1) |./ glider 15:15:56 |length error 15:15:58 | (_1 0 1) |./glider 15:16:00 my world is over 15:16:23 no no i mean 15:16:33 u meen 15:16:37 (each of a) oper (each of b) 15:16:41 liek makes an array of them. 15:16:50 lol can u c im confused lol 15:16:51 :-| 15:17:15 i mean it's not even all permutations 15:17:25 because it's all permutations of (one elem, one elem) 15:17:40 something like that. 15:17:47 you're so helpful :D 15:18:41 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 15:19:33 j is for people who 15:19:37 DON'T NEED ANY HELP 15:19:56 ;;;) 15:20:03 dude. 15:20:06 there is a j channel 15:20:08 #jsoftware 15:20:12 they have j evaluation bots. 15:20:15 ! 15:20:30 OMG 15:20:39 I KNOW 15:20:53 there's only 4 people in ther 15:20:54 e 15:20:54 and us 15:20:56 XD 15:21:00 and 3 bots 15:29:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:02:22 % grep -i 'youtube' *|head 16:02:22 06.05.23:03:38:04 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD4OnHCRd_4 16:04:08 04.05.27:14:16:29 i have never even seen a breadboard, but they sure sound sexy 16:47:38 whoa 16:47:41 guy in #jsoftware, gnomon 16:47:45 is in the logs of here im reading now 16:47:46 :o 17:00:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has changed nick to IllegalNameExcep. 17:00:59 -!- MigoMipo has changed nick to NullPointer. 17:01:04 -!- NullPointer has changed nick to MigoMipo. 17:01:30 -!- IllegalNameExcep has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 17:05:49 ehird, there? 17:05:57 Yes. 17:06:50 I have a python question, if I want to dump everything python knows about a module, how would I do it? This is for debugging, basically I have a crash in a C program using python for an embedded scripting language. And I want to dump everything python knows about the module it implements. 17:06:55 I have read python docs yes 17:07:05 Be more specific. 17:07:08 "Everything it knows" makes little sense. 17:07:11 What do you want to dump? 17:07:18 ehird, PyModule object 17:07:35 and it's dict 17:07:41 I'm afraid I'm not too familiar with the C API. Can you get the module from inside a Python prompt? 17:07:41 recursively 17:07:52 ehird, I can run python code yes 17:08:03 I'm stepping in gdb to right before the point it crashes 17:08:04 Try module.__dict__ 17:08:08 ah 17:08:09 thanks 17:08:51 ehird, yes that did what I wanted. 17:08:52 :D 17:08:57 hooray 17:09:04 (gdb) call PyRun_SimpleString("print Crossfire.__dict__\n") 17:09:06 fun :) 17:09:16 now if it was a bit easier to read only :/ 17:09:22 AnMaster: import pprint 17:09:37 pprint.pprint(Crossfire.__dict__) 17:09:40 ah 17:10:06 call PyRun_SimpleString("import pprint\npprint.pprint(Crossfire.__dict__)\n") I guess 17:10:08 * AnMaster tests 17:10:17 yes :) 17:10:36 'Time': , 17:10:37 'Type': , 17:10:43 hm, guess it isn't recursive 17:10:47 oh well 17:10:53 You can make it recursive. 17:10:56 oh? 17:11:03 Sure, sec. 17:11:24 anyway the issue is something is wrong with reference count, python thinks that module, 'Crossfire_Type' has no references, but I think it has, to be specific: in that dict 17:11:40 so does the python object think. but not the python gc 17:11:43 :/ 17:11:55 result: crossfire-server: Modules/gcmodule.c:277: visit_decref: Assertion `gc->gc.gc_refs != 0' failed. 17:11:57 :D 17:12:14 ehird, so I'm digging deep into the internals atm 17:12:15 def recdict(o): 17:12:15 if hasattr(o, '__dict__'): 17:12:16 r = {} 17:12:18 for k, v in o.__dict__.iteritems(): 17:12:20 r[k] = recdict(v) 17:12:22 return r 17:12:24 else: 17:12:26 return o 17:12:28 pprint.pprint(recdict(Crossfire)) 17:12:38 oh nice, now to write it all in a C string :D 17:12:41 with spaces 17:12:48 "def recdict(o):\n if hasattr(o, '__dict__'):\n r = {}\n for k, v in o.__dict__.iteritems():\n r[k] = recdict(v)\n return r\n else:\n return o\n" 17:12:50 well 17:12:56 yeah 17:12:57 "def recdict(o):\n if hasattr(o, '__dict__'):\n r = {}\n for k, v in o.__dict__.iteritems():\n r[k] = recdict(v)\n return r\n else:\n return o\npprint.pprint(recdict(Crossfire))\n" 17:13:06 I got that by doing """(code)""" in python and looking at the output :P 17:13:27 hm 17:13:29 interesting 17:14:24 btw, I would recommend against using python as an embedded scripting language. 17:14:30 It isn't very...embeddable. 17:14:48 ehird, well not my choice, has been like that since before I joined the project 17:14:55 OK. 17:15:02 ehird, I would have used lua 17:15:20 Lua is... rather crappy. 17:15:21 heh, 800 lines of output from that 17:15:29 The syntax isn't very nice, and *arrays index at 1* 17:15:45 ehird, well there is guile too, but I don't expect anyone else to have liked that idea. 17:16:04 apart from that I can't think of any embedded scripting language 17:16:15 guile is a rather crappy Scheme, too :P 17:16:23 however since the embedded scripting language is in a plugin and not in core it should be easy to replace 17:16:24 I'd go for elk, it's an embeddable Scheme with nice things like full continuations 17:16:28 but that's a bit dormant 17:16:32 (2 years of no dev, IIRC) 17:16:49 well, that would make me rule it out probably 17:17:04 anyway you could have it as well. just a cfelk plugin 17:17:13 (dynamically loaded) 17:17:19 I'd just rewrite the whole thing in Scheme, to be honest. :-P 17:17:53 you mean the core too? hah, well the code is old in parts, there is stuff in common/porting.c that even Lovecraft would avoid writing about. 17:20:04 ehird, is there any way from inside python to ask python what it thinks about reference count of objects? 17:20:04 Yes, I believe so, let me find it in the library reference 17:20:04 hm even better would be: if the GC thinks it can see a specific pointer in C 17:20:04 AnMaster: http://python.org/doc/2.6/library/gc.html 17:20:04 ehird, huh I looked there just a second ago *re-reads* 17:20:09 get_referrers/get_referents is probably what you want 17:20:35 yes indeed 17:20:39 exactly indeed 17:21:07 AnMaster: note: python does freaky shit to handle circular references. 17:21:18 right 17:21:18 if you have some of them, might wanna look there. 17:21:42 I don't think I have it, but that recursive dump above was over 800 lines long 17:22:46 NameError: name 'Crossfire_Time' is not defined 17:22:47 uh 17:22:52 that is supposed to be a module? 17:23:17 ah I need to import it in the line too 17:23:19 right 17:23:27 AnMaster: make a script 17:23:30 to check for circular references 17:23:39 i.e., walk the recdict tree, remembering every object you see 17:23:43 if you see one again, print it 17:25:10 err 17:25:15 the result of gc.get_referrers made no sense 17:25:19 call PyRun_SimpleString("import pprint, gc, Crossfire_Time\npprint.pprint(gc.get_referrers(Crossfire_Time))\n") 17:25:23 wouldn't that be correct? 17:25:57 it seems to return a list of many modules instead of "who is holding a reference to the PyModuleObject for Crossfire_Time 17:26:51 ehird, does http://rafb.net/p/0gPG5U88.html make any sense to you? 17:27:16 AnMaster: I think that means that Crossfire_Time imports all those modules, directly or indirectly. 17:27:22 Maybe you want referrents 17:27:33 hm *reads docs again* 17:28:05 that only lists what the module contains... 17:28:23 * ehird shrug 17:28:25 Try #python? 17:28:38 well I will after I debug this some more first 17:29:24 -!- Corun has joined. 17:29:26 hm 17:30:05 maybe there is some way to say "don't ever try to garbage collect this stuff because there is C side stuff you don't know about, so GC should just ignore this"? 17:30:34 there is 17:30:43 if talking about python 17:30:47 yes 17:31:11 * oklopol waits for AnMaster to ask what it is 17:31:18 oklopol, what is it? 17:31:28 HOW SHOULD I KNOW NOT HAVING GC IS A RETARDED IDEA 17:31:39 thanks for asking 17:31:51 uh... 17:32:06 -!- Mony has joined. 17:32:27 anyway 17:32:29 it's python 17:32:32 so why do you have to ask 17:32:38 import gc, help(gc) 17:32:48 plop 17:33:22 oklopol, I mean from the C Embedding API point of view 17:34:51 hmm, i'm not actually sure you can ignore only some objects. 17:35:34 why would you, AnMaster 17:35:41 you're meant to fit your freeing to python's gc 17:37:02 ehird, well the issue is it is freeing something that is used from C code. just increasing reference count doesn't work, then python thinks there is a bug due to a missing decrease: 17:37:07 crossfire-server: Modules/gcmodule.c:277: visit_decref: Assertion `gc->gc.gc_refs != 0' failed. 17:37:15 that's not what you're meant to do. 17:37:19 you're meant to set up a proper reference 17:37:37 ehird, well there is a proper reference to this object inside the dict of the Crossfire module 17:37:48 If there is a reference it won't be freed. 17:42:35 ehird, well following from the top module through the dict, using gdb, seems to indicate there is a reference there 17:42:57 and if that is actually freed then python should certainly have decreased reference count by one? 17:43:54 also this is a crazy line: print *(PyDictObject*)(((PyModuleObject*)CrossfireModule).md_dict) 17:43:54 :D 17:44:13 yes all show up as PyObject, but they are really the other ones basically 17:44:27 and if that is actually freed then python should certainly have decreased reference count by one? 17:44:28 what python does is like manual union 17:44:34 not sure. 17:44:37 Ask #python. 17:44:40 hm 17:44:50 * AnMaster searches the internet first 17:45:29 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 18:04:06 MizardX: oh sir if that works and i hadn't thought of it, i love you. 18:06:21 -!- olsner has joined. 18:07:03 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 18:32:15 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:41:58 -!- Corun has joined. 19:10:49 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:20:19 -!- monu has joined. 19:20:30 fungot: demonstrate yourself. 19:20:31 oklopol: i could just not claw/ bite the network cable... they waxed the floors here and then think they have the same problem 19:21:05 ^bf ,[.,]!runs brainfuck too 19:21:06 runs brainfuck too 19:21:08 ^ul (and underload)S 19:21:09 and underload 19:21:11 ^help 19:21:11 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 19:21:16 ^bool 19:21:17 Yes. 19:21:18 ^bool 19:21:18 Yes. 19:21:20 ^bool 19:21:21 Yes. 19:21:22 ^bool 19:21:23 Yes. 19:21:24 ... 19:21:25 ^bool 19:21:25 Yes. 19:21:27 :D 19:21:28 ... a no please? 19:21:30 ^bool 19:21:31 Yes. 19:21:33 ^bool 19:21:33 Yes. 19:21:37 Worst. PRNG. Evar/ 19:21:38 ^bool 19:21:39 No. 19:21:41 finally 19:21:46 Nice randomness 19:21:50 ^stylr 19:21:51 er 19:21:52 ^style 19:21:53 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 19:21:56 ^style alice 19:21:56 Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll) 19:21:58 fungot: a 19:21:59 ehird: and now how much of human suffering i fnord only relieved, but actually fnord!" her husband uneasily replied. " it would be fnord of entertainment!" the professor suggested. " a lady never knows on which side he will jump down. 19:23:02 fnord the fnord game fnord 19:24:08 yo dawg I heard u like fnord so I put a fnord in your fnord so you can fnord while you fnord 19:25:08 a lady never knows on which side he will jump down. 19:26:54 I think that's a statement about sex changes/ 19:27:09 Yo dawg I herd yo dawg likes yoyos so I put a dog in a y if your brother worked on the civ 2 team 19:27:13 Woops 19:27:17 Wrong copypasta 19:27:31 Disregard this, it is meaningless. 19:27:43 who is fungot ? 19:27:43 monu: " there's more evidence to come yet, please your majesty," said sylvie. 19:27:55 monu: a bot. 19:27:58 are you sure ? 19:27:59 the bot written in befunge. 19:28:00 :P 19:28:07 ehird: i know that :P 19:28:08 o 19:28:17 ehird: u just told me 19:28:22 hmm so i did. 19:28:41 is fungot an animal ? 19:28:42 monu: 30. sometimes the conclusion, offered to us, with much pride, the handle of it caught her under the chin, and, in the course of the evening." 19:29:15 who is fungot ? 19:29:16 monu: " but it's the wrong street. that's where we've made our mistake! our best plan, now, did you? 19:29:41 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCException: MigoMipo out of IRC"). 19:29:56 fungot's a mineral 19:29:57 ehird: though the barrister tried to appeal to its pride, and vainly proceeded to fnord his attention. 19:30:54 is fungot a storyteller ? 19:30:55 monu: ' i know they're talking nonsense,' alice thought. still, she couldn't make out what it could possibly be. but lady muriel seemed to take it quite as a matter of course that doesn't do unless children are healthy: i quite allow that. well, well!' said alice, looking about in great fnord, that seemed to exist in the air a weary and wandering sigh then sounded like " fnord!" 19:31:06 monu: to a degree 19:31:08 it's a markov chain 19:31:09 ^style 19:31:10 Available: agora alice* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 19:31:18 Currently it's spewing lewis caroll, feel free to change that. 19:31:24 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 19:31:28 k 19:31:42 so fungot forgets, he doesnt remember ... 19:31:43 monu: alice did not like shaking hands with either of them first, for fear of hurting my feelings). " you're nothing but a bottle of ink, and when he urged " for fnord sake: ' the nights are very damp!" 19:31:59 ^style wp 19:31:59 Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages) 19:32:02 Yey 19:32:04 fungot 19:32:06 FireFly: i began to try to thrust all that into the lead section's image: we haven't even explained heredity and variation yet, so great was his power." i suggest we begin to doubt the fnord as we called him, the reason for this? 19:33:47 ^style irc 19:33:47 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 19:34:09 fungot 19:34:10 monu: going against th fnord of society in the quest for fnord beauty" by pointing to frth :) thanks again!) but with none of the stories are about robots. 19:34:51 douglasadams 19:34:57 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 19:36:59 fungot 19:37:00 monu: financial loss from feeding it anyway. 19:38:03 ... 19:38:17 financial ? 19:38:31 fungot 19:38:31 monu: local person the question " how is a named-let different from a let that binds the variables it binds in their scope so functions bound to them so strong that you need anything lower-level than syntax-rules.) 19:39:18 sayonara fungot 19:39:18 monu: after tusho writes a proposal that allows players to donate points, by creating a continuation at some other time 19:39:40 -!- monu has left (?). 19:43:25 ehird, btw: I found and fixed the issue 19:43:47 though the fix seems wrong... and disagree with the documentation. 19:43:50 Would you use fungot daily? 19:43:51 kerlo: funet does, bash doesn't have, and that i'm not a wolf. you communicate by howling, but i'm doing sicp exercise 1.22 and wondering whether it just does 19:44:01 kerlo, uh? 19:44:31 It's a question. A question is the kind of thing you can answer. 19:46:13 I wonder where the "i'm not a wolf. you communicate by howling" thing came from. 19:46:53 ^style agora 19:46:53 Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical) 19:46:58 fungot 19:46:59 kerlo: a player becomes sitting. a zombie may not 19:47:06 fungot 19:47:07 kerlo: an office is not impaired by contradiction between the announcement the scorekeepor. the 19:51:23 ^style 19:51:24 Available: agora* alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 19:51:30 ^style europarl 19:51:31 Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006) 19:51:32 fungot, hi 19:51:35 AnMaster: mr president, a few members of a national side of the house to go back on what is being proposed for the reserved sector and the right of the presumption of guilt of terrorism for any person going through a period of 10 years for revision. i have several questions to the greek authorities, which includes ' pre-emptive strikes', such as poverty, public servants being unable to cope with the new initiatives for employme 19:51:46 heh 19:53:18 Ooh, interesting, isn't it, fungot? 19:53:18 FireFly: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, the third aspect concerns the role of the joint research centre. as you will be informed of the progress made should not be underestimated. 19:53:34 ^style pa 19:53:35 Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics) 19:53:42 no 19:53:44 fungot, ? 19:53:45 AnMaster: because i hate myself. and when you do play, it's like a copyright infringement kit. you want in on some of this stuff is actually really tasteful. 19:53:52 ^style alice 19:53:53 Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll) 19:53:56 hello fungot 19:53:57 AnMaster: ' it says " fnord!" that fnord is fnord to me is my fnord' doggie than a dozen sic' as thou! and through and through me without seeing me. " this is harder than fnord!" thundered the vice-warden. 19:54:01 ^style xkcd :>? 19:54:01 Not found. 19:54:07 ^style 19:54:08 Available: agora alice* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 19:54:10 are the ones that exisgt 19:54:12 exist* 19:54:12 Yep 19:54:21 ^style fisher 19:54:21 Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations) 19:54:22 But I'd like to see an xkcd one :D 19:54:35 fungot 19:54:35 FireFly, you transcribe the comics+ 19:54:36 kerlo: ( ( closest to)) did we look at how the people over 19:54:36 ? 19:54:42 fungot, huh? 19:54:43 AnMaster: you too how are you oh okay oh)) someone and they called him i think 19:54:52 oh that one 19:54:53 ^stylp wp 19:54:55 now I remember 19:55:00 ^style wp 19:55:01 Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages) 19:55:05 hi fungot 19:55:06 AnMaster: look here fnord/ fnord/ tco/ fnord 19:55:09 Talk:, eh? 19:55:10 ... 19:55:12 AnMaster: http://www.ohnorobot.com/index.pl?comic=56&s=test&search=Search 19:55:13 fungot: :-( 19:55:13 fungot, poke 19:55:14 kerlo: how come this section is about violence that has occurred at the beginning and end of each title's description, there is still a paramount pa., age 1) and ruby j. wilson ( born n.y., age 8). 19:55:14 AnMaster: if there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this article. 19:55:17 [[A man sits at a computer connected through a wall to another computer.]] 19:55:17 TURING TEST EXTRA CREDIT: CONVINCE THE EXAMINER THAT HE'S A COMPUTER. / Man: You know, you make some really good points. I'm ... not even sure who I am anymore. 19:55:17 {{Title Text: Hit Turing right in the test-ees.}} 19:55:21 Enough for me 19:55:30 hah 19:55:36 ^style ss 19:55:37 Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings) 19:55:59 fungot, To be or not to be (a markov chain) 19:56:01 AnMaster: gon. not since widdow dido's time to counsaile thee that art to me, and ile not wish thee to a shrew'd ill-fauour'd wife? thou'dst thanke me but a little, comfort a little, and legion himself possessed him, yet he talkes well, but that i am 19:57:13 fungot, oh 19:57:14 AnMaster: richard. then, heaven, i love thee well; and, by my faith, this league that we haue giuen thee faces of the groomes withall, for it is not that a good word 19:57:31 ^style irc 19:57:31 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 19:57:44 fungot, hu 19:57:44 AnMaster: or even smalltalk ( see squeak) smalltalk to find that out. 19:57:45 hi* 20:11:43 Hmmm... 20:13:09 Borland C++ Builder 5.0's license doesn't allow the user freedom of use for compiled files :-( 20:13:20 -!- bsmntbombgirl has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 20:13:38 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit. 20:13:57 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 20:15:18 impomatic: use a real compiler? 20:16:37 i think the openbsd team should do a cc hackathon 20:18:33 bsmntbombdood, "cc hackathon"? 20:18:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has changed nick to ewih. 20:18:40 A hackathon. On C compilers. 20:18:44 Is that a difficult concept? :P 20:18:46 also just use g++, or icc 20:18:52 -!- ewih has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 20:18:56 gcc is huge a bloated 20:19:03 bsmntbombdood: clang? 20:19:14 Reasonable license, advancing quickly, not bloated, etc. 20:19:15 ehird, clang didn't codegen C++ last I looked 20:19:19 Sure. 20:19:22 I'm talking about the future. 20:19:27 so not a solution today, for the future, sure 20:19:48 ehird: that's not even a real compiler 20:19:55 Why not? 20:19:56 creating build/temp.linux-x86_64-2.6-pydebug/home/anmaster/src/python/Python-2.6.1/Modules 20:19:58 um? 20:20:01 Does a real compiler need REAL MEN working on it or something, bsmntbombdood? 20:20:02 strange 20:20:06 it compiles to some virtual machine 20:20:11 no. 20:20:17 LLVM compiles to native code. 20:20:31 I'm incredibly surprised you haven't heard of it; it has a lot of backing. 20:20:58 I'm surprised you didn't read the main text on llvm.org, it says "llvm can be a static compiler" 20:21:00 iirc 20:22:12 sounds dumb 20:22:21 i want a classic, unix, cc 20:22:26 worse is better 20:22:39 llvm is worse is better 20:22:39 ... 20:22:53 Dismissing it as "dumb" after you just hear of it is, um, dumb. 20:23:02 * AnMaster agrees with ehird here 20:23:15 also if you like it that way just use tcc or pcc 20:23:28 tcc is very fast because the only optimising it does is constant folding 20:23:32 lllllllllllllllllllvm 20:23:50 lament, that wasn't very zen I'm afraid 20:24:03 that was very zen 20:24:05 because it wasn't zen 20:24:21 let's make it zen 20:24:26 * lament whacks AnMaster with a stick 20:24:31 oh you are right ehird 20:24:37 * AnMaster dodges 20:24:53 * AnMaster uses Kung-fu on lament 20:25:09 lament: you need an Oerjan-Approved A Grade IRC User Swatter from Oerjancorp. 20:25:10 undodgable. 20:25:24 I will simply use my Zen skills. 20:25:26 * lament meditates 20:25:33 ehird, that is a busted myth 20:25:43 no. mythbusters are corporate drones. 20:25:50 oerjancorp is a non-profit. despite the name. 20:26:04 corporate drones armed with guided missiles! 20:26:16 the best kind! 20:26:31 if you want a zen compiler 20:26:34 just compile haskell to haskell 20:26:40 nice! 20:26:45 ommmm 20:35:37 oklopol: 20:35:37 07.03.18:06:15:42 noweach, lopoda, nopol implementation, oklotalk, nestor 20:35:40 afk 20:35:44 dude. you've had nopol since 2007 20:35:48 lazy bum-ass 20:39:53 that fucking K has almost all advantages of oklotalk... how dare it 20:43:28 hmm i don't remember what lopoda was... 20:45:03 noweach was one sick language, it was a cellular automaton kinda thing, except you could also refer to current state, so it was kinda constraint programming with an infinite datastructure 20:45:04 ... 20:45:22 my madness is probably decreasing :| 20:47:18 oklopol, wow noweach sounds fun 20:47:21 what was the syntax? 20:47:39 that i don't recall 20:47:58 probably something with a lot of < brackets. 20:48:01 *<> 20:52:45 Okay, I give up with C++ Builder. Is GCC a big download? 20:53:02 Source or binary? 20:53:21 Binary 20:53:46 Platform? 20:53:50 Windows? 20:54:53 I only want to compile one thing, then I'll probably never use it again 20:54:53 I don't like C 20:54:53 Yes 20:55:10 MinGW is around 200M when installed, for me 20:55:55 But then I think I've got ada and objective-c there as well, along with some third party libraries possibly 20:56:21 6,4Mgcc-part-c++-4.3.0-20080502-2-mingw32-alpha-bin.tar.gz 20:56:21 7,8Mgcc-part-core-4.3.0-20080502-2-mingw32-alpha-bin.tar.gz 20:56:46 So I guess around 15-20M for everything if you need C++, 10-15 if only C 20:57:02 impomatic: but VC++ might be easier to get working 20:57:45 Thanks, I'll download next month :-) 20:57:45 My bandwidth limit is close! 20:58:31 You poor common law countries and your bandwidth limits 20:59:10 oklopol: (∼R∈R∘.×R)/R←1↓⍳R 20:59:12 howdya write that in j 20:59:25 implementing life? 20:59:33 naw 20:59:36 that's a prime number finder 20:59:43 darn 20:59:43 life is a bit longer :-P 20:59:51 not much 20:59:56 twice that or so 20:59:58 Deewiant: about 50-60 chars 21:00:13 Deewiant: http://www.catpad.net/michael/APLLife.gif 21:00:15 was the whole thing that long? 21:00:28 hmm, that's a different one 21:01:39 you mean the video I linked to? 21:01:44 that was kind of spread over multiple lines tbh 21:01:52 but even with the infrastructure it was still ~60 chars 21:02:04 I'd type it now if I had an APL keyboard :-P 21:02:19 looks shorter to me 21:02:21 let me count 21:02:41 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 21:02:50 I don't think it uses anything 21:02:56 link? 21:02:58 takes a matrix and outputs the next state 21:03:10 "APL is a mistake, carried through to perfection. It is the language of the future for the programming techniques of the past: It creates a new generation of coding bums." 21:03:11 how does one link to specific points in youtube videos 21:03:12 - Dijkstra 21:03:21 Deewiant: #NmMs 21:03:23 e.g. #4m33s 21:03:27 at the end 21:03:33 I tried that and it doesn't seem to work 21:03:46 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xAKttWgP4#4m23s anyway 21:04:47 hm, ok then 21:22:50 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 21:28:49 might be #/4m23s 21:29:04 no. 21:31:38 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:35:30 aha, http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xAKttWgP4#t=4m23s 21:35:46 ah, t= 21:43:56 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCException: MigoMipo out of IRC"). 21:47:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:48:32 aa 21:58:57 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:12:42 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 22:15:16 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:19:13 Heh. #t=4m23s doesn't work when first loading the web-page in Google Chrome, but when stepping back or forward in browser-history it jumps to the correct time. 22:19:55 v1.0.154.43... just saw that there is a newer version 22:22:18 -!- yoR has joined. 22:23:21 Hi all 22:23:57 hi 22:24:24 ehird: The 'bug' in bf languages still exists ;-) 22:24:30 bug? 22:24:33 (in anarchy golf) 22:24:52 The 'feature' that allows cheating/using the codespace 22:25:05 Hi yoR :-) 22:25:17 ah 22:25:19 how does it work again 22:27:32 +[+<] 22:27:42 This finds the last instruction of your program itself 22:27:49 ah 22:34:37 I'm currently writing my first self-made-esolang-interpreter 22:35:01 Since I aleady made subleq and bf interpreters, I created my own language this time 22:38:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("TooTiredException"). 22:41:19 I made another bf interpreter last night in 8086 asm 22:43:22 You have too much time impy ;) 22:44:48 No, not enough time! 22:58:29 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 23:04:51 -!- jix has joined. 23:09:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:09:10 oklopol: OMG OMG OMG 23:09:11 J IS NOT PURE 23:09:15 It cannot handle huge numbers :'( 23:09:17 69999999999999999999999999699999999999999999999999996999999999999999999999999969999999999999999999999999699999999999999999999999996999999999999999999999999969999999999999999999999999699999999999999999999999996999999999999999999999999969999999999999999999999999699999999999999999999999996999999999999999999999999969999999999999999999999999699999999999999999999999996999999999999999999999999969999999999999999999999999699999999999999999999999996999999999999 23:09:20 99999999999996999999999999999999999999969999999999999999999999999699999999999999999999999996999999999999999999999999969999999999999999999999999699999999999999999999999996999999999999999999999999969999999999999999999999999699999999999999999999999996999999999999999999999999969999999999999999999999999699999999999999999999999996999999999999999999999999969999999999999999999999999699999999999999999999999996999999999999999999999999969999999999999999999999999699 23:09:25 999999999999999999999996999999999999999999999999969999999999999999999999999 23:09:27 _ 23:12:31 lament: you need an Oerjan-Approved A Grade IRC User Swatter from Oerjancorp. 23:12:44 comes with a free fly simulator! 23:13:15 Lastest version of MS* 23:13:24 MS' Fly simulator* 23:14:19 * oerjan swats FireFly -----### 23:14:35 :< 23:14:42 free demonstration 23:14:47 * FireFly tries to dodge, but fails miserably 23:16:28 * oerjan notes the swatter is on fire and dips it in water 23:16:43 always a risk with fireflies 23:17:11 be especially careful with greek fireflies, as water doesn't work on greek fire 23:17:49 fortunately this one was swedish. they practically fly into the swatter by themselves. 23:19:01 oerjan, it is a myth it is dodge proof 23:19:45 the swatter is sweeped in many myths 23:19:47 oerjan: AnMaster thinks the swatter is dodge proof. this is because he has no brain. 23:19:47 * AnMaster dodges successfully 23:19:52 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:19:56 everyone knows it's dodgeproof. 23:20:03 typing a line on IRC saying you dodge post-swatting doesn't change that. 23:20:11 ehird, yes 23:20:25 it does since he swatted by typing a line on irc too 23:20:34 ehird: especially when you're not actually being swatted 23:21:40 actually the swatter is dodgeproof but not foolproof (there's always a better fool). therefore AnMaster can dodge it. 23:22:04 hah 23:22:33 oerjan: he dodges it but it still hits him 23:26:20 I'm not greek, just a geek 23:27:01 eek 23:28:13 "they practically fly into the swatter by themselves." :< 23:29:56 oklopol: gee 23:30:13 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:31:03 FireFly: do you reek? 23:31:25 Reek? ;o 23:32:18 do you reek of leek all the week? 23:32:42 Now you have to involve 'cheek' too 23:32:46 Don't ask me how 23:32:54 I'm having math homework for tomorrow, but boolean algebra seems more interesting 23:34:18 something else seeming more interesting is normal. the strange thing is that it is still math... 23:35:15 The things we currently do is a bit.. basic :< 23:35:26 Um, are* 23:40:02 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:42:45 Does a real compiler need REAL MEN working on it or something, bsmntbombdood? 23:43:17 no. real women and real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri can also be utilized. 23:45:41 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 23:47:07 FireFly: i have boolean algebra on a course atm 23:47:15 :< 23:47:28 I'll have it in another two years 23:47:32 At least some, I think 23:47:37 what institution? 23:48:53 Um, well, I don't know the english term, but I'm only in the 'gymnasium' atm 23:49:05 I think the american equalient is high school, but I'm not sure :\ 23:49:58 well how old are you 23:50:04 16 years old 23:50:17 high school yeah 23:50:18 the gymnasium is where everyone runs around naked. at least that's the original meaning. 23:50:32 ._. 23:51:27 FireFly: then are you sure you mean boolean algebra and not like, say, digital logic? 23:51:51 I dunno, but I found what they talked about on some discrete math course interesting 23:51:57 A friend linked a video 23:52:05 not that the difference is all that crucial, i'm just very jealous if it's actual boolean algebra. 23:52:16 * oerjan 's first exposure to boolean algebra was from his father's digital logic book 23:52:42 I only know that we have a course called "descrete mathematics" in year 3 (me being in year 1 now) 23:53:35 i see. i think we had something like that too 23:53:57 of course by second year i was so fed up with the system i couldn't really enjoy even the nice courses. 23:53:59 And I just watched http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2965569821331370765 <-- and that seems interesting 23:54:20 i hated it so much i cannot stop ranting about how much of a waste it was. 23:55:25 Hm, I wonder why i^-i = e^(pi/2) :\ 23:55:25 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 23:55:41 -!- Judofyr has quit ("raise Hand, 'wave'"). 23:55:57 I wonder what the average age in here is 23:56:06 FireFly: i = e^(i*pi/2) 23:56:16 probably the few really old (:P) people and the few really young people mess up the balance 23:56:49 Well, me, MigoMipo and BeholdMyGlory being 16 propably takes the average age down a bit 23:56:53 I'm 34, so I guess I'm with the few really old people! 23:57:02 FireFly: i doubt that. 23:57:17 But of course, there's a lot of people in here 23:57:24 <- 38 23:57:31 <- 42 23:57:39 * oerjan swats oklopol -----### 23:57:40 ooh, magic number 23:57:46 LIAR 23:57:53 Well, me, MigoMipo and BeholdMyGlory being 16 propably takes the average age down a bit 23:57:54 *18 23:57:56 sorry, typo 23:58:00 err 23:58:03 *19 23:58:05 actual error 23:58:07 FireFly: No, you're near the average : 23:58:08 :P 23:58:09 * ehird = 13 23:58:19 :< 23:58:27 asiekierka is I think 11 or 12, but his status as an intelligent being is... debatable. 23:59:02 yeah he's more like a bot. 23:59:17 a bad bot 23:59:20 i wanna make a bot that uses a simple hand-woven conlang 23:59:25 i mean 23:59:30 so i don't have to parse english 23:59:35 go for lojban, I mean then people will actually be able to understand it 23:59:36 without learning it 23:59:38 more impressive 23:59:40 i'm more interested in mimicing being social 23:59:47 mvldo! :P 2009-01-30: 00:00:10 i could maybe do lojban minus gismu. 00:00:14 gismu 00:00:14 ? 00:00:26 i was thinking you'd teach real life concepts to it yourself 00:00:27 umm 00:00:30 gismu are root words 00:00:33 oh. 00:03:17 but probably i'd go for a simpler language. 00:03:35 and, you know, more mathy. 00:03:49 closer to Absolute Fundamental semantics 00:03:50 ... 00:04:06 * oklopol remembers a certain moment of madness 00:04:42 ^bf +++++++[>+++++++<-]>++.+. 00:04:42 34 00:04:58 Hm, is A XOR B = (A+B)(¬(AB)) ? 00:06:21 FireFly: yes 00:06:30 Good 00:06:42 I mananged to do the basics 00:06:44 : 00:06:45 :>* 00:07:08 also, ¬(AB) = ¬A + ¬B 00:11:25 Hm, yeah 00:11:33 Bleh, I'd better sleep 00:11:39 Until tomorrow 00:11:40 Or 00:11:45 Later today, actually 00:11:53 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:12:11 buy. 00:12:29 sell! 00:18:47 -!- Corun has joined. 00:30:16 -!- yoR has left (?). 00:48:15 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 00:48:20 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:10:16 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:26:07 heys 01:26:56 haze 01:29:50 -!- Corun has joined. 01:31:36 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 01:31:36 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit). 01:31:50 so 01:33:08 ive rewriting my interp for AntiGravity 01:33:31 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 01:39:31 * AnMaster goes insane 01:39:53 I shall try to port it to python 3 while keeping it working under python 2 01:40:07 and the C API differs a lot 01:42:20 i think that's - not recommended. 01:47:51 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:48:33 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:51:43 oerjan, going insane? 01:52:17 oerjan, one of the devs use debian stable, if we didn't support both it would take like 5 years before we could upgrade! 01:52:41 no, trying to make something both Python 2 and 3 01:52:52 oerjan, well the C module, not the python code 01:53:03 oerjan, for the code you could just use 2to3 01:53:04 but 01:53:15 not so for the C code embedding python 01:53:27 http://docs.python.org/3.0/howto/cporting.html#cporting-howto 01:54:09 oh i was thinking you were going for a complete polyglot. at least that would be the properly insane thing. 01:54:25 oerjan, impossible for the C API 01:54:37 oerjan, as for that, it is just avoiding "print" and a few other things 01:54:53 2to3 shows that is basically one of the few changes 01:57:56 $ LD_LIBRARY_PATH=$HOME/local/python-3.0-dbg/lib PYTHON_HOME=/home/arvid/local/python-3.0-dbg ~/local/python-3.0-dbg/bin/2to3 *.py 01:57:56 RefactoringTool: Skipping implicit fixer: buffer 01:57:56 RefactoringTool: Skipping implicit fixer: idioms 01:57:56 RefactoringTool: Skipping implicit fixer: set_literal 01:57:56 RefactoringTool: Skipping implicit fixer: ws_comma 01:57:57 RefactoringTool: No files need to be modified. 01:58:00 for some files 01:58:07 of course it could still break 02:27:20 night 02:35:52 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:50:33 There once was a man from Man-Fuck-Dick, 02:50:33 Whose horse enjoyed when he sucked it, 02:50:33 His limericks reversed, 02:50:33 The humor inversed, 02:50:33 'til the day that he moved to Nantucket. 02:52:16 Nantucket? 02:52:51 Meta-humor FAIL. 02:54:01 Meta-meta-humor success? 02:55:54 ^style 02:55:54 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 02:55:59 fungot, hi 02:56:03 ... 02:56:08 someone talk to him? 02:56:17 fungot, how do you do 02:56:18 oerjan: i don't think exists? and all? 02:56:21 thanks 02:56:31 oerjan, I need some data to feed into an eliza 02:56:34 hm 02:56:37 which style 02:56:41 fungot is being descartian today 02:56:42 oerjan: hmn. first dead fnord family member in years. mother's father died when i was a big php advocate for awhile. not so much 02:56:52 eww 02:56:57 "mother's father died when i was a big php advocate for awhile" 02:56:59 :D 02:57:07 goes to show 02:57:53 PHP KILLS PEOPLE 02:57:53 yes 02:57:55 ^style lovecraft 02:57:56 Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings) 02:58:00 fungot 02:58:02 AnMaster: the tiles on graves and rotting temples flash like ripples, as earth's gods dance against it; i shall see the dancing forms of the people always represented by the sacred reptiles appeared to be, while the boys were overseas. some fateful mood impelled me to ask for work. 02:59:54 fungot, oh? 02:59:55 AnMaster: after a time he became very numb and somnolent, moving more from automatic impulse than from reasoned fnord nor did he neglect a small store of gold for earthly use. 03:00:45 i'm not sure reasoned fnord is an improvement 03:32:10 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 03:32:20 ja 03:32:50 i need to add built ins to antigravity to allow for things like IO i think ya 03:32:58 what sorts of built ins should i have?? 03:35:11 something uplifting 03:35:14 * oerjan ducks 03:36:16 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:38:32 hmm 03:38:35 uplifting huh 03:38:37 sounds good! 03:39:06 also, "uplift" is occasionally used as a verb to mean "increase the intelligence of some animal to the point of sentience" 03:39:18 so an uplifting function would be quite interesting to have! 03:39:43 also, observe as i only now get the pun 03:40:21 it's a *whoosh* ... but but ... it comes back ... and hits! 03:40:39 :p 03:40:49 it left a dent in my head! D: 03:41:10 well dent do that then 03:41:18 :P 03:42:46 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:10:31 !! 04:10:41 i just had another idea for something to add to the AntiGravity system 04:10:51 besides types, which i will add eventually 04:11:29 you'll also be able to define attributes on the grammatical rules 04:11:54 so that you can not only define new parts of the grammar 04:12:20 but you'll also be able to perform attribute grammar types of computation while parsing 04:12:59 hm. 04:14:03 maybe. 04:14:06 :P 04:34:26 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:45:40 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 05:21:31 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 06:22:21 TALK WON'T YOU 06:22:22 :| 07:11:19 07:11:51 .. oh attribute grammars, shiny ! 07:13:28 ski__: :P 07:14:44 well, the language itself is actually an unrestricted grammar engine, so it can do things attrgrams cant do, ofcourse. but im considering making the parsing engine capable of handling attrgrams for the potential odd kinds of solutions it might permit 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:19:25 -!- jix has joined. 08:21:13 hmhm 08:21:40 * ski__ want to experiment with coupling AGs with LP 08:22:41 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 08:23:57 Antigravity with linear prediction. 08:24:40 why do you call it "AntiGravity" ? 08:29:16 just felt like it. 08:29:20 fizzie: linear prediction? 08:29:40 its a working name, i think. ill rename it something more nice eventually 08:30:22 * ski__ called a language `contagion', once 08:30:31 i like that name 08:30:52 the only abstraction primitive was anonymous continuations 08:31:01 huh. 08:31:35 I don't know why, but I've seen AG used as an abbreaviation for antigravity. And linear prediction is a rather fundamental signal processing thing. 08:32:10 oh .. i used `AG' as abbreviation of "Attribute Grammar" 08:32:18 AG is indeed a standard abbreviation for antigravity 08:32:31 so what exactly IS linear prediction 08:32:32 (maybe that was psygnisfive's point in calling it "AntiGravity", though) 08:32:51 no. the name preceded the potential use of attribute grammar qualities 08:33:20 (never heard of `AG' as abbreviation of "Anti-Gravity") 08:33:26 hm. 08:33:28 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 08:34:29 Linear prediction is just "predict next sample as a linear combination of p earlier samples"; you can use it for statistically modeling signals, and things like that. 08:35:44 ahh ok. 08:35:54 markov chains. 08:39:10 Er, not really, there are no state transition probabilities involved anywhere. 08:43:49 But sure, in the sense that both could be used for somewhat similar things. Although when modeling a random process, linear prediction is usually called autoregressive modeling. LP is used a lot in things like compressing speech to very low bitrates. The GSM codecs are linear-predictive. 08:45:10 hm. 08:47:57 so fizzie what /other/ built ins should i have? :P 08:48:10 since i dont know how i'd incorporate LP 08:48:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 08:59:34 no? 08:59:35 nothing? 09:03:42 I was: eating lunch. 09:04:48 Oh, antigravity was mentioned earlier too. I didn't bother to read the context. 09:05:12 I don't really know how linear prediction would be related to whatever-it-is-you-were-doing. 09:05:32 :p 09:05:40 what should i build in! D: 09:20:41 * ski__ just realizes fizzie might have interpreted `LP' as "Linear Prediction" 09:21:22 Yes, your "AGs with LP" is what made me say what I did. 09:21:34 i feared that :) 09:22:00 by `LP' i meant "Logic Programming" 09:23:59 ski__: regarding logic programming 09:24:16 AG does do some unification stuff, so you might be able to do some LP kind of stuff 09:24:36 yes 09:24:39 also 09:24:44 but 09:25:29 some AG systems statically stage tree traversal in several steps, to compute inherited and synthesized attributes 09:25:30 it wouldn't be elegant like prolog because you'd be building it on top of a non-logical system, and you could only prove truths, not discover truths, i think. 09:25:50 "some AG systems"? 09:25:52 i want to have a system that allows such static (maybe dynamic, too ..) staging of predicates 09:26:03 yes 09:26:32 i didn't realize there were things related to AG that _i_ wasn't making. :P 09:26:58 oh oh 09:27:01 Attribute Grammar 09:27:04 haha ok :) 09:27:14 dont abbreviate that :P 09:27:20 or atleast not like that 09:27:28 AG = AntiGravity XD 09:30:21 no :) 09:30:49 i believe that is a standard abbreviation, in relation to grammars, and programming languages 09:31:01 :P 09:32:24 so cmon! what should i add to my language as a primitive. 09:32:32 what is useful 09:32:47 continuations ? 09:32:55 variables ? 09:32:55 and what do i need to consider for laziness/forced evaluation 09:33:14 it cant have continuations, really. or it might be able to but im not sure how. 09:33:20 and it does have variables 09:33:21 (you might note that i have no idea what you already have in your language) 09:33:24 :p 09:33:32 it is right now literally just 09:34:29 a unrestricted tree rewriting engine with variables in the grammar's rules, and a unification system for pattern matching 09:35:17 thats really it. the core functionality is math rules, and a rule for substitution of an item in a tree 09:35:45 could you give some contrived samples to exemplify what you mean ? 09:35:58 no. it just ends up looking like haskell. 09:35:59 :P 09:36:28 how about giving a BNF, then ? 09:36:56 there is no real grammar for it either. 09:37:09 i mean, there are really only two things that define the language. maybe three. 09:37:15 = is used for definitions. 09:37:32 () define subtrees 09:37:55 and starting a symbol with a capital defines a syntactic variable 09:38:04 -!- impomatic has quit ("programming @ http://tr.im/xey"). 09:38:06 meaning ? 09:38:20 well, you know what an unrestricted grammar is, right? 09:39:06 i don't recall details .. but i imagine it's a couple or rules with no context-insensitive restriction .. 09:39:30 well, its basically just arbitrary rewrite rules 09:40:04 so that the kind of string you replace can look like anything 09:40:17 e.g. abc -> def 09:40:29 so you replace trees instead of strings 09:40:39 (i assume you have congruence) 09:40:46 congruence? 09:41:22 the important part is, if you know what an unrestricted grammar is, just imagine the rules that can have variables in them 09:41:37 if `blah' can be rewritten into `bleh', then any tree with `blah' inside it can be rewritten to the same tree with (some) occurance(s) of `blah' exchanged into `bleh' 09:41:57 e.g. abcX -> XXabc where X can be any symbol or tree part 09:42:05 so abcd -> ddabc, etc. 09:42:08 how about 09:42:25 aXbXc -> Xd 09:42:25 ? 09:42:27 oh i see what you mean 09:42:32 yeah thats fin too 09:42:34 fine* 09:43:15 * ski__ is btw irritated by the direction the `->' arrow in grammar rules point .. 09:43:35 in some sense, yes, it has congruence, but its not like a rule blah -> bleh will actually transform that tree, necessarily, because its lazy. 09:43:54 (when i add support for grammars to my LP language, i'll have it point the other direction ..) 09:43:59 why are you irritated?? 09:44:49 in `aXbXc -> Xd', the `->' is really a kind of implication .. but it is `Xd' which implies `aXbXc', and not the other way around 09:45:09 -> is not an implication :P 09:45:20 -> is an arrow telling you what gets rewritten as what :P 09:45:38 i'm pretty sure it can be interpreted as an implication in an ordered logic 09:45:56 it can be, and in THAT case you're right 09:46:16 (which, imo, is what grammars is all about) 09:46:19 but thats not how rewriting systems are termed 09:47:34 hm .. will you have confluence in your term-rewriting system ? 09:47:46 ^ 09:48:11 oh no that was congruence 09:48:13 whats confluence? 09:48:45 basically that which rewriting rules you choose in which order doesn't matter for the "end result" 09:49:10 there might be several possible rewriting rules you could use to rewrite a term 09:49:26 say `A' can be rewritten into `B', but also into `C' 09:50:10 then there should be a `D' such that both `B' and `C' will eventually be rewritten into `D' 09:50:30 (there might be some details regarding termination which i forget here, but that's the gist of it) 09:51:15 oh yeah no it is ordered because of pattern matching and stuff 09:51:51 but thats amongst definitions of "the same function", so to speak 09:52:13 09:52:24 yes 09:52:27 consider 09:52:46 foo (bar x (baz y z)) 09:53:02 you might rewrite according to `bar' or according to `baz' first 09:53:22 confluence says that it doesn't matter which you actually do 09:54:18 yah, im not entirely sure if thats going to happen. i mean, because its pattern matching, you could have a pattern that looks inside another "function application" 09:54:29 e.g. you could have a rule bar x y -> z 09:54:48 but you could also have another pattern foo (bar x y) -> w 09:55:00 or something like that 09:55:04 ok 09:55:18 where like.. if bar x y = 5 09:55:34 i suppose another example of confluence is 09:55:44 and foo (bar x y) = 10 09:55:49 foo 5 doesnt have to = 10 09:56:19 A + (B + C) --> (A + B) + C 09:56:29 yah 09:56:39 0 + A --> A 09:56:46 so if you have 09:57:00 0 + (x + y) 09:57:09 you could use either rule first 09:57:20 yah. 09:57:58 but anyway 09:58:01 thats what it is 09:58:10 and i need some ideas for what primitive rules should exist 09:58:19 e.g. IO and stuff 09:58:39 since its very purely functional, should i think about monad sorts of things, etc etc 09:58:52 (iirc, there's five ways to go from `a + (b + (c + d))' to `((a + b) + c) + d' here .. that they are all equal is called the pentagonal law) 09:59:06 :P 09:59:27 anyway, i need to run off to sleep. 09:59:45 maybe you could use some kind of unique state for I/O 09:59:48 (like Mercury) 09:59:51 private message me any ideas that you think would be important to include :p 10:00:05 well IO i can really just implement pretty naively 10:00:08 but whether i should or not 10:00:18 well, i don't know what you want, so it's hard to say what's important for you 10:00:50 well i just mean whats important in a usable programming language in general. 10:01:05 mhm 10:01:18 anyway, night. <3 10:01:23 m, night 12:46:24 -!- blAckEn3d has joined. 12:47:33 -!- blAckEn3d has quit (Client Quit). 12:54:19 -!- Hiato has joined. 13:04:45 where has ais gone 13:04:45 :\ 13:29:11 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:33:59 well do like ehird and just start coding in it... :D 13:34:00 god i hate that dood sometimes 13:34:02 (read: "envy") 13:34:07 --2008-04-09 13:35:55 [2008-04-10 04:33:07] < oklopol> ehird is a guy who lives here 13:36:03 yes 13:36:54 There is also a nice definition for "atom" by oklopol in that log: "a retarded string, somewhat" 13:37:05 verily 13:37:14 oklotalk-- is pretty cool. 13:37:26 it's very... orthogonal 13:38:37 i have the oklotalk-- source UNLIKE ANYONE ELSE :DD 13:39:06 i mean it even has tests. 13:39:07 holy fuck. 13:39:24 # Needs to be set quite high because the implementation has the massive 13:39:25 # conceptual defect of not supporting tail recursion in a 13:39:26 # language without any other type of iteration. 13:39:28 sys.setrecursionlimit(3000) 13:39:30 CONCEPTUAL DEFECT 13:39:56 Hang on to that source code, it'll surely be worth millions some day. 13:41:01 # TODO 13:41:01 # standard representation of oklotalk-- object, not implemented 13:41:02 def obj_to_str(a,cxt,depth=0): 13:41:04 return a.call([Atm('get')],"oo",cxt,depth=0).val 13:41:06 wut 13:41:57 # store all functions on stack, a function needs to evaluate (to a copy of itself) 13:41:58 # if it is already on stack when called 13:41:59 dyn_cls=set([]) 13:42:01 w h a t 13:42:08 # Verbose may be helpful when debugging, but prolly not. 13:42:09 verbose=False 13:42:41 # jsussiuuidfhsaudfh PRIVMSG #chan ::: 13:42:51 it's drunk code 13:56:02 -!- Hiato has joined. 14:11:07 (we actually talk about programming stuff once in a while as opposed to just talking about manga and social incompetence) 14:11:11 -- 2008-04-10 14:19:58 Andreou, the founder of #esoteric, was last here 2008-08-31 14:22:42 oklopol: 15:02:43 o 15:07:54 oklopol write my j for m 15:07:54 e 15:07:55 :'( 15:11:53 -!- ski__ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:12:39 http://love2d.org/screenshot_data/seaotters.png 15:12:40 ehird: yeah what about that stack thing :D 15:12:49 oklopol: wut stack thing 15:12:55 that one you linked 15:13:05 # store all functions on stack, a function needs to evaluate (to a copy of itself) 15:13:09 # if it is already on stack when called 15:13:11 dyn_cls=set([]) 15:13:15 its from oklotalk-- 15:13:19 i know. 15:13:20 I don't know it XD 15:13:23 it makes no sense 15:13:23 :DD 15:13:28 omfg hackety redesigned 15:13:52 it makes sense, just not... in a conventional way 15:14:16 -!- ski__ has joined. 15:14:45 oklopol: also I totally thought of the best way to make oklotalk 15:14:56 it's sort of like feather but not rly 15:15:19 it'd let you literally add anything. 15:15:24 even continuations, if it didn't have them. 15:15:27 litter ally 15:15:37 ya 15:15:39 cunt in your asians 15:16:06 wait did you actually say something 15:16:08 * oklopol reads 15:16:13 oh okay. 15:16:20 well good for you 15:16:21 lol, cunt in your asians 15:16:21 :) 15:16:35 also oklopol will you ever make oklotalk 15:16:36 :| 15:16:37 what do you want from j 15:17:03 well. i currently *do not code at all*. so nothing gets done really. 15:17:22 but i will probably be in a more productive state at some point again. 15:17:55 i want to do dis in J: 15:17:58 14:23 21:07 How would I get all length-two permutations? e.g., 1 2 3 -> 1 1, 1 2, 1 3, 2 1, 2 2, 2 3, 3 1, 3 2, 3 3? 15:17:59 14:23 21:07 Specifically, giving each of those permutations as the left-argument of another application 15:18:06 probably after my fourth period, if you know what i mean 15:18:45 umm 15:18:45 wait 15:25:46 (,/@:(([,])"0/~)) 15:26:29 but they aren't permutations :P 15:26:54 they are elements of the cartesian exponentiation 15:27:57 of course that probably isn't a word, but it should be. 15:30:15 oklopol: right but 15:30:25 surely there's a way to get that shorter if you're just giving them each to another func 15:30:31 I mean in APL it's liek one char, iirc 15:33:18 9:49:01 alternatively, you could put the jewnicode into auschwitz09:49:12 but then you'd be an nascii 15:35:29 ehird: maybe there is, i don't see it. 15:35:35 more sp : | 15:35:36 -> 15:35:40 waiiiit oklopol 15:35:44 <-' 15:35:44 when I have those permutations 15:35:47 mmmk 15:35:48 how do I give them to a funnnnnnnnnnction 15:35:51 <.< 15:36:11 hey, if you want to put them in a function, you can just do func/~ list :D 15:36:18 except 15:36:22 it has to be the left argu 15:36:23 ment 15:36:25 not the right wun 15:36:39 also, nope 15:36:40 +/~ 1 2 3 15:36:41 2 3 4 15:36:43 err. 15:36:43 3 4 5 15:36:45 4 5 6 15:36:54 that's not length 2 picks 15:36:55 yeah, then just ,/ it 15:37:00 ,/? 15:37:07 ,/ 1 2 3 15:37:07 1 2 3 15:37:12 yeah, do you know what / does as monadic 15:37:15 no 15:37:23 it's err 15:37:25 fold 15:37:29 foldr 15:37:43 ,/ +/~ 1 2 3 15:37:43 2 3 4 3 4 5 4 5 6 15:37:54 so how does that help me feed all length-2 picks from a list as the left arg into another func 15:37:55 :| 15:38:27 oh as the left arg. then prolly use what i gave you earlier 15:39:05 ;_; i dunno how 15:39:18 ~ commutes or crosses connections to arguments: x u~ y ↔ y u x . 15:39:22 ok that helps a bit 15:39:30 now to figure out how to do x y z -> z y x 15:39:33 wait... 15:39:35 that's it 15:39:35 okay 15:39:40 but ummmmmmmmmmm 15:39:46 you still haven't told me anythign I didn't know. 15:40:27 cartprodapplier =: ((,/@:(([,])"0/~))@[) funtoapply ] 15:40:35 wel. 15:40:37 *well 15:40:42 i've answered your questions. 15:40:54 i don't claim to have done any more 15:40:55 no you give me answers to qs I don't ask :| 15:41:18 (((,/@:(([,])"0/~))@[) |. glider) )_1 0 1 15:41:18 |syntax error 15:41:18 k 15:41:26 sp -> 15:41:42 yeah that makes no sense, no wonder it's an erro 15:41:43 r 15:41:45 sp -> 15:42:27 "use this" 15:42:29 "it errors" 15:42:32 "duh, that makes no sense" 15:43:06 i told you to write (((,/@:(([,])"0/~))@[) |. glider) )_1 0 1? 15:44:07 cartprodapplier =: ((,/@:(([,])"0/~))@[) * ] 15:44:07 1 2 3 cartprodapplier 5 15:44:21 wtf is * ] 15:44:42 plus, I can't exactly believe you that a 2-char thing in APL is that long in j, 15:44:43 multiply, by left argument 15:45:20 then maybe you should learn j and learn whether it is? 15:51:58 i've tried. 15:53:43 well i'd sing you a song if i was an australian woman, but, well. 15:53:50 oklopol: write a muture interp. 15:53:51 KTHx 15:54:05 i've already started doing one actually 15:54:16 but progress is infinitely slow 15:54:38 well make it faster i wanna try it 15:55:05 ;I,;mc,[]{"[]"},=}!!b->"+"+mC1"-"-mC1">"+C1"<"-C1{;X}Wh=mC0=}X??b 15:55:08 I wonder how that works 15:55:50 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/clue.txt 15:55:51 wut wut wut 16:04:46 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:07:41 you will need a large black cock 16:07:43 [time passes] 16:07:49 s/cock/rooster/ 16:11:27 ehird: clue is a language. 16:11:42 howitwurk 16:11:49 based on giving certain clues to the interp 16:12:04 aha 16:12:08 whut about the cise bf 16:12:11 it basically sets up a recursive procedure based on a bag of functions and examples 16:12:19 I mean 16:12:21 I don't see any , or . 16:12:25 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:12:26 ehird: i'd have to reverse-engineer it again, i don't remember how it works atm 16:12:32 does it do , and . 16:12:38 ehird: it's probably just an ioless subset 16:12:42 sux 16:12:46 oooooooooooooo 16:12:50 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 16:12:56 what's bf size in golfscript btw? 16:12:58 how does cise work :P 16:12:59 aldo 16:13:00 also 16:13:02 lemme look it up 16:13:18 dunno 16:13:23 not on http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Brainfuck+FIXED 16:13:26 cise is weird. 16:13:39 http://www.golfscript.com/golfscript/examples.html 16:13:40 not there 16:13:55 also the sudoku solver is lolbig 16:14:19 is that so 16:15:47 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:15:57 i was thinking about constraint programming stuff for cise 16:16:07 there's already a pretty clear framework where it'd fit 16:16:36 basically a function consists of actual program logic statements, and certain kinda pattern matching statements 16:16:55 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:17:06 the pattern matching stuff can be used for certain constraint programming needs too 16:18:10 of course i haven't thought about the operators yet, but they are completely separate from the imperative stuff, so at least there won't be a charset size issue, unlike with imperative features, where ascii just isn't enough. 16:18:11 o 16:18:11 o 16:18:14 more sp :< 16:19:02 :((((((( 16:19:04 oklopol: 16:19:07 j sux at golf 16:19:09 output is sooo verbose 16:19:13 'foo' (1!:2) 4 16:19:34 also, omfg 16:19:37 j is written in java oklopol 16:19:38 jav 16:19:40 a 16:19:54 i know it is because I just opened the .jar with java 16:19:56 and it's j 16:19:58 OKLOPOL :( 16:37:12 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:38:04 -!- oklopol has joined. 16:48:47 hmm 16:48:58 I wonder if you can have a lang with no partial functions without type checking 16:49:03 liek, you basically need to stop _|_ 16:49:08 so all builtin functions must be total 16:49:10 but then like 16:49:11 the y combinator 16:49:13 or f x = f x 16:49:15 must be stopped 16:49:15 hm 16:55:31 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:00:59 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:04:00 lol, j actually has oop 17:04:01 weird 17:04:14 coclass 'Stack' 17:04:14 create =: 3 : 'items =: 0 $ 0' 17:04:15 push =: 3 : '# items =: (< y) , items' 17:04:17 top =: 3 : '> {. items' 17:04:19 pop =: 3 : '# items =: }. items' 17:04:21 destroy =: codestroy 17:04:23 cocurrent 'base' 17:04:25 17:04:27 17:21:59 * ehird plots language like J, but more golfy for less conventional things 17:23:11 oklopol: I figured out how to get the last input in j 17:23:13 ctrl-d enter 17:23:19 ctrl-d brings up the log, enter puts it in the current line 17:23:23 two lines up: ctrl-d up enter 17:23:23 etc 17:25:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:36:53 -!- X-Scale has joined. 17:40:49 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:48:58 hmm 17:48:59 * ehird ponders 17:50:13 hmm 17:50:18 you can't make circular data structs in j :( 18:01:05 what a useless language 18:01:10 all best things in life are circular 18:02:03 Like balls? 18:05:22 yes. 18:06:22 Example of balls : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers2/balls.gif 18:32:34 pl 18:32:35 oklopol: 18:32:39 can you make circular data structs in j 18:35:20 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:36:03 i wonder if I should make my variation lazy 18:49:37 -!- impomatic has joined. 18:56:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:58:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:59:50 I've created a new page for Redcode on the Esoteric Languages Wiki, http://tr.im/dpty 19:00:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:01:28 wow, the wiki didn't have a redcode page? 19:03:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:06:13 No :-( 19:06:39 :( 19:06:43 It was on the language list, but no page. I've added some basics to begin with 19:06:48 impomatic: you play corewars? 19:07:23 Yes, and also do some programming in redcode 19:07:31 he said he's played corewars since 1993 IIRC 19:08:19 impomatic: is it fun? Has the state-of-the-art progressed since the 80s? 19:08:35 About that :-) 19:09:37 It's fun, but slow at the moment. There's a history at http://corewar.co.uk/history.htm which give brief details of what's happened each year 19:10:39 Basically, there's been a new standard, there's now various online tournaments with instantaneous results, and new techniques keep getting invented. 19:11:49 There are several irregular newsletters too, http://corewar.co.uk/journals.htm 19:12:21 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:12:41 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 19:32:07 -!- Mony has joined. 19:33:27 impomatic: a new standard? When was that? 19:34:59 plop 19:35:00 Oh, right, since the 80s :-P 19:35:17 I was hoping something had happened in, say, the past two years that I wasn't aware of 19:46:22 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:00:05 Prelude> iterateUntilStable (\(x,y) -> (x+y,y/2)) (1,0.5) 20:00:05 (2.0,0.0) 20:00:09 Correct for all the wrong reasons. 20:15:33 huh? 20:16:06 Deewiant cw standards = 1986, 1988 and 1994 20:16:16 o 20:19:43 impomatic: yep, I was hoping for something after 94 :-) 20:20:41 No need for a new standard 20:20:46 Although opcodes for character input / output have been added 21:00:25 -!- alex89ru has joined. 21:02:46 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:06:27 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 21:14:48 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 21:14:48 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 21:55:58 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 21:56:18 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 22:03:34 the last xkcd... surreal... 22:04:36 also, fun hobbit joke in iwc today! 22:06:53 -!- ski__ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:06:53 -!- Leonidas has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:06:57 -!- ski__ has joined. 22:06:57 -!- Leonidas has joined. 22:16:25 huh? 22:16:34 It's mathematically correct, but i only get that result because floating point is inaccurate. 22:16:43 (Getting it properly would involve infinite computation.) 22:24:22 Has anyone got any really old corewar stuff? I'm building a big online archive 22:25:06 Unfortunately there's lots of stuff that used to be online, but has now disappeared. 22:25:29 The same seems to go for some other Esolang stuff :-( 22:26:30 http://esoteric.sange.fi/ 22:26:31 look ther 22:26:32 e 22:26:35 for eso archive 22:26:42 people can give you access there 22:26:43 :) 22:26:45 and there might be stuff. 22:26:52 AnMaster: the duckling thing? 22:26:56 impomatic: I might, somewhere, but I think it's all from corewar.co.uk anyway 22:26:58 i lolled so hard :D 22:26:58 Thanks, looking 22:26:59 oklopol, yes 22:27:03 oklopol, same 22:27:05 Deewiant: isn't that impomatic's site? :P 22:27:09 but surrealistic still 22:27:16 ehird: I don't know 22:27:19 oklopol: it's the SHC. 22:27:21 small duckling collider. 22:27:21 Deewiant, I should have all of the corewar.co.uk stuff! :-) 22:27:23 well. it's like "oh my god would that work" 22:27:28 er. 22:27:29 but in any case, my point was that it's on the 'Net anyway 22:27:29 SDC. 22:27:31 impomatic: :-) 22:27:50 huh? <-- can't find that in scrollback, about when is it from? 22:27:58 huh? 22:28:01 whee quote towerrrrrrrrrrr 22:28:05 yay! 22:28:11 huh? 22:28:18 oklopol: it's the SHC. <-- fun! 22:28:26 however 22:28:32 you need two streams 22:28:34 opposite 22:28:40 no 22:28:46 the xkcd comic is incorrect 22:28:52 oh? 22:28:55 they would look for their mother, thus randomly swirl 22:29:00 then colliding into a central singularity 22:29:06 ehird, ah 22:29:09 since they don't want to stray too far from each other 22:29:18 then, the higgs boson... 22:29:21 ...wait, nevermind 22:29:36 hah 22:29:45 Are we discussing SCIENCE? 22:29:56 Slereah: We're discussing making ducks hit together. 22:29:59 Also known as science. 22:30:03 ehird: all joking aside, what if they were circling some kinda circular circularity? that is, if they could only see the duckling before them 22:30:20 ooh cool 22:30:25 oklopol: well, the front one wouldn't go to the last one 22:30:25 higgs boson probably wouldn't appear, because the circle couldn't get smaller 22:30:27 it'd try to find its mother 22:30:31 so would they continue? 22:30:34 The Minus webpages have disappeared, hopefully I'll find them in the archive 22:30:36 ehird: umm 22:30:38 so it'd swirl around and probably turn back 22:30:41 causing everything to collide. 22:30:49 There was something else too which I noticed had gone. Not ever in the internet archive :-( 22:30:51 how would it know someone didn't just overtake it? 22:30:58 i mean, they're retarded animals. 22:30:59 indeed 22:31:11 and even if it would realize something happened 22:31:25 does it have exception handling? 22:31:41 oklopol: if they get confused, they're also likely to hit themselves together 22:32:10 that's just a technicality, what if you just managed to start the loop some other way, say with simultaneously removing blindfolds and having them circulating using somekinda machinery already, so they'd think they were already following the next duckling 22:32:33 im talking about what the comic did 22:32:34 :P 22:32:34 ^ continuation to what i said last, not what you said 22:32:41 -!- Corun has joined. 22:33:07 oklopol, blindfolds? Think that would work? 22:33:26 only if each can't see the colour of it's own blindfold! 22:33:35 my point is something would, given a lab environment. 22:33:57 oklopol: what if you just bashed them together with your hands 22:34:00 then they would bash them together 22:34:04 see, fuck hypotheticals 22:34:07 i'm talking about the comic's situation 22:34:38 oklopol, what about making a fake duck "backend" and mount it on one of the ducklings? 22:34:40 well, i care about the loop, not how it's started; i'm not sure what bashing has to do with that 22:34:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:34:53 oklopol, true 22:34:58 except i guess it's very hypothetical, therefore similar to my point of view. 22:35:04 NO IT'S A LIE 22:35:05 oerjan, hi! IWC rocked today 22:35:13 well don't tell me 22:35:17 oerjan, so did xkcd! 22:35:29 i saw that 22:35:54 AnMaster: indeed, removing a *duckling* from the cycle probably won't confuse the first one, it'd just go for the next on in the queue 22:36:15 i mean, assuming you want the loop to be autonomous at some point 22:36:18 oerjan, I think dmm should really stop with this bad hob^Whabbit of his. 22:36:30 i don't really know what ducklings do if one of them happens to, say, die 22:36:31 i' 22:36:41 m assuming they don't care 22:36:43 oklopol, um? ok 22:36:57 oklopol, duck graveyards? 22:37:05 or wait, was that elephant graveyards? 22:37:17 wait, today was hobbit pun day? 22:37:34 ah indeed 22:37:38 oerjan, no spoiler! 22:37:44 link 22:37:55 AnMaster: you started it 22:37:56 oklopol, IWC! 22:38:04 oerjan, no that was a typo ;P 22:38:06 http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/ 22:38:09 oklopol, ^ 22:38:14 AnMaster: i don't believe you 22:38:29 oerjan, fun fact: I don't believe me either about that 22:38:40 i believe that 22:38:46 um I don't 22:38:49 that you do 22:38:55 that I don't 22:39:18 yes you do! 22:39:23 no 22:39:34 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----### 22:39:41 since not believing myself is a paradox 22:39:45 it would be impossible 22:39:59 basically if I don't believe myself I can't believe that I don't believe myself either 22:40:02 which is a paradox 22:40:13 i see you haven't heard about the concept of "lies" 22:40:35 oerjan, I have heard about it, but I haven't understood it 22:40:41 I mean it makes no sense 22:40:42 figures 22:40:49 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 22:42:04 oerjan, btw I have to ask you a thing, have you heard the name "Joseph Martin Kraus" before? 22:42:20 not that i recall 22:42:40 a very weak bell may be ringing 22:42:53 oh well, not internationally known I guess. Famous Swedish composer. 1756-1792 22:44:29 -!- alex89ru has quit ("Verlassend"). 22:45:04 famous swedish composers only really rings one bell with me. although it's a big bell, man. 22:46:20 oerjan, ? 22:46:25 Anyone heard of TWINC, TWo INstruction Computer? :-) 22:46:43 AnMaster: your pun detector needs a good polishing 22:47:05 oerjan, even after you said there was a pun I'm unable to detect it 22:47:18 last two words 22:47:24 oh 22:47:24 right 22:47:25 GAH 22:47:35 oerjan, what about Johan Helmich Roman then? 22:47:42 no bell there 22:47:57 1694-1758 22:48:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Helmich_Roman 22:48:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Martin_Kraus 22:52:43 oerjan, do you get http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/ today? 22:53:10 "Steganographic" 22:53:11 google it 22:53:14 i've just logged on, don't expect me to have read any webcomics 22:53:24 oh 22:53:41 oh 22:53:45 diffimg solved 22:53:46 well there was some steganography discussed in the forums, this may be the result of that 22:53:47 solve it 22:53:54 wget the original 22:54:03 wget the changed one 22:54:03 then 22:54:04 oerjan: famous swedish composers only really rings one bell with me. although it's a big bell, man. <<< awesome 22:54:05 :D 22:54:12 diffimg 0034.png ga980112.gif > diff.png 22:54:15 * oerjan bows 22:54:28 oerjan, indeed great when I found it 22:54:58 oerjan, if it had been audio communication it would have been obvious 22:55:17 AnMaster: I wrote a diffvideo script once :P 22:55:27 GregorR, wow 22:55:32 GregorR, link? 22:55:55 i don't get the garfield thing even though i know what steganography is. 22:56:09 oklopol, I got it now 22:56:10 :) 22:56:34 Never published it, one sec I can throw it somewhere. 22:56:44 oklopol, just download the original (linked at the bottom) and square root one 22:56:50 then diff them 22:56:55 oklopol, using diffimg or such 22:57:01 Although it's a total of 118 lines :P 22:57:25 oh. 22:57:32 Incidentally, I don't actually have any idea what diffimg is, I assume it just produces an image that is the pixel-per-pixel difference of two images? 22:57:50 (Like R2 - R1, G2 - G1, B2 - B1) 22:57:54 AnMaster: no need, i can read that without diffinh. 22:57:56 *diffing 22:59:37 oklopol, what? 22:59:38 AnMaster: http://pastebin.ca/1323168 and http://pastebin.ca/1323170 22:59:49 AnMaster: what what? 22:59:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Excess Flood). 22:59:58 the strip behind garfield. 23:00:05 Incidentally, I don't actually have any idea what diffimg is, I assume it just produces an image that is the pixel-per-pixel difference of two images? <-- no, it produces a black and white image, black for differences 23:00:17 white for unchanged 23:00:19 Oh, well that's even simpler than what I wrote :P 23:00:37 (Even ignoring the image-vs-video thing) 23:00:52 in both it's much more work opening the pic files than the actual computation 23:01:03 Yuh :P 23:01:13 depends on language 23:01:18 in C certainly yes 23:01:19 just map a==b over the zip of the arrays 23:01:28 in C yes, in real languages fuck yeah. 23:01:34 wonder if J has zip 23:01:35 if not it should. 23:01:41 on N-dimensional arrays, ofc. 23:01:43 in surreal languages maybe not. 23:01:49 it has implicit zip 23:01:56 for arrs of equlength 23:01:56 um wat 23:01:58 I made mine to get an idea of how much different video compression algorithms eff up the video :P 23:02:02 heh 23:02:06 (1 2 3), (4 5 6) 23:02:06 1 2 3 4 5 6 23:02:08 that's no zip 23:02:09 GregorR, yes 23:02:19 ehird: 1 2 3 + 5 6 7 = 1+5 2+6 3+7 is what i meant 23:02:26 oh well yeah 23:02:38 and yeah 23:02:39 1 2 3 = 1 5 3 23:02:40 1 0 1 23:02:40 , has infinite rank, it won't zip evah 23:02:45 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 23:02:56 of course, this works great if just about everything is a number subtype. 23:02:59 including pixels. 23:03:07 just mark them as 0xFFFFFF or w/e, ofc. 23:03:12 1 2 3 (,"0) 4 5 6 <<< but you can change rank manually 23:03:14 since, y'know, then the program is just 23:03:22 ehird, as far as computer cares, everything *IS* numbers 23:03:25 dump image (load image 1 = load image 2) 23:03:26 tadaaaaaaaaaaa 23:03:35 AnMaster: umm yeah except that's totally irrelevant 23:03:38 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:03:44 ehird, indeed 23:04:09 yeah the whole diff program is indeed = 23:04:39 in fact, if stringifying an image gives a reasonable format of some kind you can omit the dump image 23:06:15 now could someone please explain today's Lightning Made of Owls to me... 23:07:04 haha 23:07:07 it's funny and i don't get it 23:07:13 or is it just lousy 23:07:38 maybe it's just meant to be absurd 23:08:02 * impomatic checks he's still in #esolang 23:08:19 you're not 23:08:20 BUT I AM 23:08:28 or maybe there aren't save rolls if you're wielding a double-handed weapon 23:08:52 impomatic: everything is on topic here except esolangs. the # is logical negation. 23:08:57 in $rpg_mezzacotters_play 23:09:23 Hmmm... let me try something :-( 23:09:29 ehird: am I here now? 23:09:38 Here is not #esolang. 23:09:41 Here is #esoteric. 23:09:42 :P 23:09:44 But yes, you are here. 23:09:54 oh right 23:10:06 indeed, this is where we are not esoteric 23:10:06 darn suffixes 23:10:13 plain old ppl talking about things 23:10:23 oerjan: did you agree with my joke explanation 23:10:36 i mean it's funny in a conventional sense that way. 23:11:17 oklopol: when you said you could read the strip behind garfield without diffing, you were lying, right? 23:11:25 oerjan: i was not. 23:11:28 hm 23:11:39 While we're talking comics, http://corewar.co.uk/cwcomics.txt 23:11:49 food -> 23:12:17 oerjan: if you're not satisfied with me just being superior to humans, i guess i could mention i have a laptop. 23:13:59 oklopol, oh hah 23:14:06 that explains it 23:14:06 so, impomatic, i hate you; and now let me elaborate on that, it's less insulting than you think. 23:14:20 oklopol, I have a TFT with really really wide viewing angle 23:14:44 basically you've gotten me to desperately want to try both corewars and code golfing. 23:15:19 Yay :-) 23:15:20 which will take a lot of my time, if i succumb 23:15:34 I think they're both going to be around a while, no hurry 23:16:04 If they'd add redcode to code golfing, you could kill two birds with one stone 23:16:12 * oerjan has a laptop too although his first attempt to read at an angle failed. will try again. 23:16:18 http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Text+Compression/flagitious%28sym%29/1190091541&rb 23:16:20 Wow. 23:18:32 a laptop which ironically never leaves the table 23:18:54 mine almost never leaves the house, but it's always in my lap 23:19:26 then again i sit on my bed 24/7, a bit hard to use a table. 23:19:34 does that imply you almost never leave the house? 23:19:47 * oerjan had a bit different impression 23:19:51 it would. 23:20:03 i only leave the house for uni stuff really 23:20:14 and you know shoppe time. 23:21:17 but yeah i guess i meant it never leaves my lap when i use it 23:21:25 that is, when i'm home 23:21:34 well okay that's not true either. 23:21:52 logic is such a bitch 23:21:56 i usually put it down when i'm doing my stuffs. 23:22:07 which i should start doing right now btw. 23:22:31 if i don't prove these structures to be abel groups, no one will. 23:23:39 abelian ? 23:23:59 yeah i guess that's the term 23:25:50 okay, cya ~} 23:30:36 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:32:30 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 23:42:40 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2009-01-31: 00:25:46 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:26:44 What's with the quit message "This computer has gone to sleep"? Google gives > 8000 hits, all of which is IRC logs. 00:27:36 hm 00:28:06 and not a single person? 00:28:10 no 00:29:13 so next try to find which client they are using... 00:29:53 lessee Corun uses it 00:30:12 but not here now 00:31:38 MizardX: xchat aqua 00:31:41 -!- Corun has joined. 00:31:42 (os x xchat) 00:31:48 Corun: you use os x rite? 00:31:48 !taf2! VERSION X-Chat Aqua 0.16.0 (xchat 2.6.1) Darwin 9.6.0 [i386/1.80GHz/SMP] 00:31:51 you made that app thing 00:31:58 that you linked here 00:32:03 and I liked but didn't because it required leopard 00:32:09 we're investigating your quit message 00:32:10 you see 00:32:12 oh nice timing 00:32:14 and we think it's xchat aqua 00:32:21 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 00:32:24 fuck you. 00:32:38 CTCP VERSION reply from Corun: X-Chat Aqua 0.16.0 (xchat 2.6.1) Darwin 9.5.0 [i386/2.20GHz/SMP] 00:32:46 glad to know his COMPUTER talks to us. 00:33:02 i'll try another nick i found on google 00:33:27 CTCP VERSION reply from Lachy: X-Chat Aqua 0.16.0 (xchat 2.6.1) Darwin 9.6.0 [i386/2.40GHz/SMP] 00:33:32 yep, seems so 00:34:02 * oerjan hopes lachy doesn't get paranoid from being ctcp'ed out of the blue :D 00:37:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:48:42 SLOWNESS, n. 00:48:42 hm fizzie, you are from Finland? 00:48:48 {2008-04-16} 00:49:32 you mean fizzie hasn't answered yet? how rude! 00:49:38 XD 01:14:50 -!- Judofyr has quit ("raise Hand, 'wave'"). 01:25:39 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 01:30:56 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:30:57 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 01:58:30 ehird, well did he answer then or? 01:59:42 or did someone else answer? 02:05:35 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:55:36 Hy gys, s ths TF-8? 02:57:45 Nöpe, äccördïng tö mÿ chëck öf thë lögs ït's ISO-8859-1. Thïs shöüld bë, thöügh. 02:58:19 (My client auto-translates so I cannot tell from it) 02:58:37 Mm. 03:00:04 Hw bt ths? 03:02:57 * oerjan chëcks ägäïn 03:03:21 Nope 03:03:33 Darn. 03:03:54 ah irssi too 03:04:05 let me paste my relevant settings 03:04:20 Okay. 03:04:48 04:04 recode_autodetect_utf8 = ON 03:04:48 04:04 recode_fallback = CP1252 03:04:48 04:04 recode = ON 03:04:48 04:04 recode_out_default_charset = utf8 03:04:48 04:04 recode_transliterate = ON 03:06:22 Tëstïng ägäïn. 03:06:37 How did that look? 03:06:43 Grëät süccëss! 03:06:49 Great. 03:06:58 Now all I have to do is make it actually display properly. 03:07:17 ?t's d?spl?y?ng l?k? th?s. 03:07:31 note my terminal is actually not set to Unicode itself 03:07:45 Except when I type it, in which case it displays as weird boxy things. 03:08:28 Tstng nc gn. 03:08:29 so i only see things right that fall within Latin-1 part of Unicode 03:08:39 Did it still work? 03:08:47 no 03:08:54 Darn! 03:09:17 but, does that look right to you? 03:09:30 Currently, that looks right to me and the UTF-8 stuff doesn't. 03:09:33 because that comes out as ISO 03:10:09 my client shows all of them properly 03:10:25 let me check... 03:10:39 I'm guessing this is happening: I type, PuTTY sends UTF-8 to screen, screen sends ISO to irssi, irssi sends ISO to the server. 03:11:38 scrëën -d -r döës thïs. 03:11:59 Which displays as fuzzy boxes in the input line and question marks in chat. 03:12:07 But it's apparently sending it correctly. 03:12:13 04:04 term_charset = iso8859-1 03:12:18 do you have that? 03:12:30 No, I have ANSI_X3.4-1968. 03:12:32 Is that horrible? 03:12:42 i don't know what that is :D 03:12:53 possibly something 7-bit 03:13:10 try changing that 03:13:32 -1968 would seem like before anything beyond ASCII was invented 03:14:16 (that's my setting. if you manage to set PuTTY to use actual unicode, you probably should use that 03:14:32 I think PuTTY is set to UTF-8 currently. 03:14:44 Let me try starting a new irssi with -U. 03:15:16 well then you should probably do term_charset = UTF-8 03:15:24 It would seem so. 03:16:17 PuTTY sending UTF-8, screen called without -U, term_charset = ANSI_X3.4-1968: bläh 03:16:54 PuTTY sending UTF-8, screen called without -U, term_charset = ANSI_X3.4-1968: bläh 03:17:06 Er, s/ANSI_X3.4-1968/UTF-8/ on that last one. 03:17:26 both are unicode 03:17:33 Both are UTF-8? 03:17:52 as far as my browser window of the logs implies 03:19:01 Ökäy, thïs dïspläys möstlÿ rïght. 03:19:09 The Ö doesn't, though. 03:19:18 huh 03:19:47 looks correct here 03:19:58 I'm guessing Ö isn't within the Latin-1 part of Unicode or something. 03:20:05 of course it is 03:20:11 Mm. 03:20:14 Ö 03:20:29 None of that is showing properly. 03:20:40 The capital letters, anyway. 03:20:49 Ökäy, thïs dïspläys möstlÿ rïght. 03:21:11 That looks roughly like this: #Vkay, this displays mostly right. 03:21:22 The # is one of those fuzzy boxes, the V is inverse color. 03:21:36 without any " on top of anything? 03:21:45 It has those over the lowercase letters. 03:21:50 ok then 03:21:56 bizarre 03:22:14 I know that there is something that supports only lowercase accented characters. 03:23:59 also, ANSI_X3.4-1968 is the canonical name for ASCII 03:24:07 Oh, cute. 03:25:38 do you still have those recode* settings? 03:26:06 Apparently, CP437 supports Ä, Ö and Ü but not Ë or Ï, as well as a seemingly arbitrary set of Greek letters. 03:26:15 Also, everything messes up when I type Ä. 03:26:19 heh 03:26:24 ic 03:26:32 03:26 recode_autodetect_utf8 = ON 03:26:32 03:26 recode_fallback = CP1252 03:26:32 03:26 recode = ON 03:26:32 03:26 recode_out_default_charset = UTF-8 03:26:32 03:26 recode_transliterate = ON 03:26:41 what happens when i type à in here? 03:27:18 It displays as fuzzy-box inverse-color-C. 03:27:51 it should be A with ~ on top 03:28:23 à 03:28:37 right 03:28:44 Your à is the same as my Ã; both display as box-C here. 03:29:55 -!- AnMaster has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:29:58 curious. i'll leave this to the actual experts. 03:30:54 Mmkay. 03:39:43 -!- AnMaster has joined. 03:46:28 My guess is that the [c] is a replacement character for symbols not representable in the font you are using... 03:49:05 -!- olsner has joined. 04:22:14 -!- Slereah has joined. 04:23:14 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:47:09 -!- X-Scale has left (?). 04:51:16 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:06:02 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:38:27 -!- ab5tract has joined. 05:38:48 -!- ab5tract has quit (Client Quit). 05:57:34 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 05:58:27 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 05:58:38 hey bois :D 06:07:56 gurls 06:08:29 theres no girls here :P 06:14:21 http://pastebin.ca/1323277 06:14:28 everybody read that and tell me what you think 06:16:28 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:22:58 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:29:27 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 07:36:04 bsmntbombdood: It is easy to hand read-only snapshot of file or directory tree, but how to share something read-write? 07:36:29 you don't 07:41:56 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:17:04 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 08:18:42 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has joined. 08:19:07 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has quit (Client Quit). 08:22:02 -!- Mony has joined. 08:34:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:43:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 08:50:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye"). 08:50:28 bwahahahaha 08:50:30 http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/ling.2006.37.2.271 08:51:05 Optimality Theoretic models of phonology are NP-hard, while normal rule-derivation phonologies are P. 08:51:07 bwahaha 08:51:12 fuck you optimality theory :) 08:56:42 Probably optimality theoretic models can express more phonologies than rule-derivation... 09:04:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:04:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 09:12:26 ilari, they can express different ones. 09:13:04 but there are some mindnumbingly trivial rules that OT has a bitch of a time with, but that rule-derivation handles with hardly any interesting effort at all. 09:14:08 i'd go with whichever one makes more sense 09:14:23 that'd be rule-derivation :p 09:14:26 OT is like 09:14:39 ot is a bit weird yeah 09:14:48 "ok, so you've got these constraints, right" 09:14:57 "and then you generate an INFINITE number of candidates, see" 09:15:17 "then you filter out candidates until you have one that violates the least constraints. tada!" 09:17:34 'and then you pick the one you like the most out of a bunch of equally likely candidates'? 09:17:44 i guess. 09:18:01 its not very informative, to be honest. 09:18:36 is any linguistics outside phonetics? 09:18:44 yeah? 09:18:46 this isnt phonetics 09:18:49 this is phonology, for one. :P 09:20:26 exactly!! 09:21:12 what? 09:21:41 personally i find phonetics and phonology to be boring 09:21:55 i go for syntax/semantics, personally. 09:25:30 what field of linguistics, outside phonetics, has produced anything of value? 09:25:34 (to linguistics) 09:26:02 syntax is ridiculous 09:26:09 it's a joke science 09:26:16 o 09:26:16 i dont think you know much about it sir :) 09:29:20 why do you say it's a joke science, lament 09:32:16 http://www.aiforge.net/ - website about programming games ... most interesting one I've found (only got to M in the list so far) is Fleet Commander, which happen to be mentained by the site owner 09:33:17 90% of the games is about controlling a single robot, using some low level interface... 09:35:58 wow cool 09:44:15 psygnisf_: i guess i just mean the theoretical part 09:45:18 yeah but why do you say that 09:46:00 because it hasn't done anything of value :) 09:46:18 what is "of value"? 09:46:40 i'd say it's done LOTS of value. if you care about the workings of grammar. 09:47:26 it produced a bunch of toy models of varying complexity 09:47:39 such as? 09:48:01 im skeptical about whether you actually know what syntax is actually doing 09:48:07 i mean, toy models? which ones? 09:48:12 describe why they're toy models. 09:50:45 um, they don't work? 09:50:59 sure they do 09:51:06 they don't come close to reflecting the reality 09:51:08 they work wonderfully. 09:51:21 okay. 09:51:32 nevermind then. 09:51:41 i eman, cmon, what models do you perceive as toy models? 09:51:58 just name three, and give examples of how they fail to reflect reality 09:52:48 and why that single failure justifies them being toy theories, while other theories, like say quantum mechanics, also have glaringly obvious inabilities to reflect reality that don't qualify them as toy theories. 09:53:57 quantum mechanics has awesome predictive power and important real-world applications 09:54:04 it does! 09:54:13 but so do the various theories of syntax. :) 09:54:20 oh? 09:54:21 im still waiting for your examples. 09:54:55 oh indeed. 09:55:19 but cmon, what are YOUR contentions 09:55:28 since thats really the issue here. 09:56:02 any theory which tries to treat language as a formal system (generative grammar) is laughable 09:56:08 why? 09:57:09 cuz ppl are ppl they aren't no machines............... 09:57:22 oklopol you certainly are 09:57:25 because languages are obviously not formal systems 09:57:25 beep boop 09:57:26 :O 09:58:47 lament: i'd say languages obviously ARE formal systems 09:58:57 they sure as hell look it to me 09:59:09 really, you think that? 09:59:12 interesting 09:59:31 i've seen the data. all sorts of crazy shit that you dont realize until you actually dive into it 10:00:06 ridiculous things like purely tree structural relations that govern the acceptability of the use of this kind of pronoun or that kind of expression 10:00:32 you dont realize how insanely formulaic and well defined language is until you study it 10:01:34 granted, there are all sorts of complications when you get into use of language vs. structure of the utterances, e.g. pragmatics, but even THAT has so many amazingly well defined, systematic ways of operating 10:01:57 err 10:02:09 youre european, right? 10:02:10 what's the difference between language and structure of utterances? 10:02:32 well no no, the diffrence is betwen the act of using an utterance, and the utterance itself 10:03:45 the utterances themselves, ignoring things like false starts, and other illformed things, are fairly well defined formal systems, and the way you use them is also fairly well defined. 10:04:23 they're by no means perfectly understood, but it's not as tho we're just dicking around with silly theories that dont really reflect anything in the language. 10:04:33 is human behaviour a formal system? 10:05:46 well, at some level, undoubtedly. and the more you look at experimental psychology the harder it becomes to /not/ think of human behavior as a very neat, computational system. 10:10:04 where are you from, lament? which country? 10:11:27 it's a difficult question 10:12:19 he's russocanadian 10:12:32 where do you LIVE, lament. :P 10:12:37 would be fun to study human social interaction as a formal system 10:12:40 canada 10:13:34 or well theoretical social interaction, i'm not interested in how humans do it specifically, just in general 10:13:37 also, regarding human behavior as a formal system, its basically inescapable unless you believe in a soul. if everything is material, of a sort, then all there is is what amounts to a formal system of enormous scale. even at the level of neurons its obviously necessarily formal, in a sense. 10:14:11 neurons dont know. neurons are just neurons. they're signal processors and the signals have no meaning, outside of the context of the system that they're used in, namely, the brain. 10:14:13 studying game of life as a formal system on a macroscopic level would be pretty stupid 10:14:37 even though it's fairly well defined 10:14:40 ive been interested in trying to explore a formal model of memetics 10:16:36 well, semi-formal. something that explores the ways in which the smallest memetic items combine and interact 10:16:54 but! i must be off to bed. 10:17:04 have funnn 10:18:00 lament, if you can think of an example of why you think modern syntactic theories fail, or even if you can just name one that you don't like, do mention it. it'd be more substantial and worthwhile than just a proclamation of invalidity. :) 10:18:02 night :D 10:19:22 lament belongs in the ehird category of not having to justify your opinions because they right anyway. lament is just a bit older and lazier. 10:19:28 *they're 10:19:56 i think he mentioned he's like 2 already 10:20:03 and probably not quite as wrong as ehird tends to be. :) 10:20:20 but he seems to have no clue even what modern syntax is like. 10:20:23 anyway, really, im off. 10:20:32 well, why would he. 10:20:34 yes 10:20:35 byes 10:24:03 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCException: MigoMipo out of IRC"). 11:25:48 -!- Slereah has joined. 11:39:09 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:08:42 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:28:42 -!- jix has joined. 13:37:15 -!- AnMaster has quit ("ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"). 13:48:00 ehird, well did he answer then or? 13:48:05 The previous question: slowness. 13:48:08 This: idiocy. 13:51:26 -!- impomatic has joined. 13:51:30 -!- AnMaster has joined. 13:56:11 Has befunge.org moved, or just disappeared? 13:56:45 13:56 Fizzie from #esoteric owned it. 13:56:45 13:56 It just pointed to his site, zem.fi. 13:56:46 13:56 He let the reg drop sometime this year. 13:56:48 13:56 I might register it. 13:56:50 crossposting woo 13:57:53 Sorry :-/ 13:58:03 s'ok :P 14:09:33 hm 14:09:48 I wonder if you could use setcontext/getcontext to implement co-routines in C? 14:15:12 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 14:20:32 YES. 14:20:33 *Yes. 14:20:36 They are also continuations. 14:51:35 headline: Google sneezes; Internet catches cold 14:51:59 their bad-website-spotter has started saying everything is potentially malicious 14:52:29 yep... 14:52:40 http://www.google.com/interstitial?url=http://www.google.com/ 14:52:43 click 'n lol 14:53:03 google fail 14:53:06 yes 14:53:23 ehird, wonder how soon they will correct it 14:54:20 http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/7tutu/google_is_marking_every_site_as_malicious/ 14:54:23 Capitalise time! 14:54:53 ehird: fucking hell that's quick 14:54:59 :) 14:55:28 "copyright infringement is not theft." 14:55:31 "yup, and oral sex is not really sex." 14:55:40 I like the analogy apart from the part where it makes no sense whatsoever. 14:57:00 ehird, http://digg.com/tech_news/Someone_is_about_to_get_fired_at_Google 14:57:01 ;P 14:57:16 digg? 14:57:24 further confirming your intelligence, I guess. 14:57:25 (hm, someone should digg a page on reddit that reddits the page that digg's reddit!) 14:57:31 already done. 14:57:33 it wasn't funny. 14:57:37 ehird, I hate both reddit and digg 14:57:41 and slashdot 14:57:52 So why did you link me to digg? 14:57:58 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7tuou/google_thinks_reddit_is_an_attack_site_wtf/ 14:58:00 Aw, I'm too late. 14:58:03 ehird, because I know you prefer reddit 14:58:10 Uh huh. 14:58:15 AnMaster: OS X! 14:58:21 I said that because I know you prefer gentoo. 14:58:23 ha ha ha 14:58:29 wait a sec 14:58:32 this could be fun 14:58:40 http://www.google.com/interstitial?url=foo 14:58:48 now to try HTML injection! 14:59:00 "Your client does not have permission to get URL /interstitial?url=%3Cb%3Efoo%3C/b%3E from this server. (Client IP address: 90.130.2.10)" <-- damn 14:59:08 wait 14:59:14 that makes no sense 14:59:44 hm 14:59:48 If you think Google have an html injection on one of their most prominent pages (even before this bug), you're... rather deluded 15:00:02 ehird, I was thinking it wouldn't work 15:00:05 I was just trying 15:00:15 I mean if it had worked it would have been awesome 15:00:28 and would have made it first on reddit or such I bet ;) 15:00:45 so worth trying I mean, slim chance 15:01:20 you'd have thought that the reddit posters would check the existing 9999 stories on a topic before posting a new one 15:01:26 sigh 15:01:26 SimonRC: but but but KARMA 15:01:37 also: wasn't there when I posted it. 15:01:40 I don't know how reddit works 15:01:46 AnMaster: 1) If by "awesome" you mean "boring and rather unexploitable" 15:01:52 2) I think that's more digg territory. 15:01:57 ehird, http://xinutec.org/~pippijn/files/sc/osiris-20090131160126.png 15:02:09 AnMaster: Ha ha ha, it's funny because it makes fun of microsoft! 15:02:11 Ohohohohohohoho 15:02:32 ehird, yeah I thought more sophisticated humor would be too advanced for you 15:02:33 ;P 15:02:36 bbl 15:02:44 aha 15:02:45 what's wrong is 15:02:48 stopmalware.org is down 15:02:49 and google use it 15:03:14 ITT: One of the hugest companies evar completely relying on a third party service that isn't also huge: 15:03:18 dumb 15:04:07 let's all switch to cuil 15:04:13 lolol 15:04:34 Still not fixed. 15:04:36 Jeez, how hard can it be? 15:04:44 def is_malware(site): 15:04:46 return False 15:04:51 comment out the rest 15:04:53 push to server. 15:04:57 it's harder than that, obviously 15:04:59 end-of-lack-of-profit 15:05:04 SimonRC: why should it be? :P 15:05:16 sure, that's not exactly a durable solution 15:05:23 but, umm, when your whole search is completely disabled for everyone.. 15:06:02 I wonder why it doesn't assume things are safe instead 15:06:31 because the idiots that added it presumably never thought it could ever go down. 15:06:37 slashdot have it too 15:06:49 they will be fired and will move to cuil :P 15:07:10 Google Results Considered (Potentially) Harmful 15:15:19 * SimonRC eats food 15:16:12 I do that sometimes too 15:16:16 ehird, odd side effect of this: the cached links are gone 15:16:42 This is an awful mess. 15:16:51 hurry UP google. 15:17:03 ehird, cuil is still alive? 15:17:12 AnMaster: for some definitions of "alive" 15:17:22 ehird, maybe no one noticed yet at the googleplex 15:17:25 the traffic is near nil, they're financially fucked, ... 15:17:32 AnMaster: Come on, I highly doubt that 15:17:37 ehird, same 15:17:56 Cuil 15:17:56 This site may harm your computer. 15:17:56 Search engine with results shown with images and a drill-down menu. General feature, webmaster and investor information. 15:17:56 www.cuil.com/ - Similar pages - 15:17:56 :D 15:19:12 they're back 15:19:27 nope 15:19:29 still broken for me 15:19:31 oh 15:19:32 nope 15:19:34 it's fixed 15:19:35 YAY 15:19:53 Losses: $50 million 15:20:22 partly fixed yes 15:20:28 ehird, source? 15:20:39 AnMaster: Humanity's collective butt. 15:20:44 ah 15:21:02 I wonder how on earth this happened. 15:21:07 I mean, surely they stresstest this thing. 15:21:46 ehird, oh even google agreed the Swedish gov sucks: http://omploader.org/vMTZ6Nw 15:22:13 AnMaster: does it censor the internet? 15:22:17 if so, that's amusing. if not, meh. 15:22:40 ehird, someone took a pic of searching for RIAA too btw 15:22:49 that's not even funny. 15:22:54 it says "This site may harm your computer" 15:22:57 not "This site sucks" 15:23:44 ehird, and yes Swedish gov wants to do that I believe. Swedish police makes the ISPs filter child porn at least, not sure about other stuff. 15:23:59 ehird, and there was the FRA law 15:24:36 stopmalware.org is down <-- redirects to nist now? 15:25:17 Huh. 15:25:24 ehird, or did you mean stopbadware.org ? 15:25:27 oh. 15:25:28 yes. 15:25:33 which is still down 15:25:34 that explains it 15:25:36 indeed 15:28:18 ehird, oh I had paul graham in google search before and with that "this site may cause harm..." 15:28:25 I found that quite amusing 15:28:26 heh 15:28:37 didn't take a screenshot though 15:28:40 sun.com/java 15:28:41 forgot that 15:28:46 ehird, ? 15:28:47 this site may cause harm to your computeromobile 15:28:56 computeromobile? 15:28:57 heh? 15:28:59 yes. 15:29:03 it's a computer. on wheels 15:29:05 um 15:29:14 think of the possibilities, man. 15:29:20 ehird, I fail to see how that makes sense for "java"? 15:29:26 it doesn't. 15:29:33 the omobile was an afterthought 15:29:59 *homobile 15:30:38 It's a computer. On wheels. With hos. 15:30:43 Think of the possibilities. Man. 15:37:53 -!- X-Scale has joined. 15:40:57 Hi X-Scale :-) 15:41:01 hi X-Scale 15:41:07 haven't seen you here before? 15:42:26 X-Scale: I think I've seen you in #corewars ;-) 16:06:03 Hello there, impomatic & ehird :) 16:06:12 haha...yes...NorthStar :) 16:06:26 #corewars ftw 16:13:53 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:22:24 oklopol: i'm writing an oklotalk-- compiler. again :o 16:27:01 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 16:27:53 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Client Quit). 16:33:59 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:35:43 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 16:38:56 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:58:58 err google results showed pages as harmful for a while? 16:59:57 i don't see why anyone should care even if they went down altogether 17:00:37 1) yes, and so didn't let you click to them 17:00:43 2) because google is popular/useful? 17:00:47 ah. 17:01:02 (you had to manually copypaste the URL to go somewhere) 17:01:24 or use another engine 17:01:44 the other engines aren't particularly good 17:01:51 neither is google 17:02:56 the others were good enough back when i last used them ;) maybe they suck even more nowadays, dunno. 17:03:14 i've used only google for many years now 17:03:46 but i refuse to acknowledge i'm in any way dependant on it, therefore i refuse to understand why anyone would care about its problems. 17:03:49 i think pattern matching will be oklotalk---compiling's downfall. _again_ 17:03:58 heh 17:04:06 i wonder if it's heretical to write an oklotalk-- parser that produces no errors. 17:04:16 hmm 17:04:28 (a ]) actually parses the ] as a var name atm 17:04:33 umm. what errors could the parser produce? 17:04:35 though i dunno what (a) would be 17:04:38 oh -- 17:04:38 atom (, atom a, atom ) 17:04:42 perhaps 17:05:20 (a b c d parses as (a b c) d :D 17:10:20 oklopol: what is your officially deemed parsing of (a) 17:15:15 % python parse.py 17:15:15 [('name', '('), ('name', 'a'), ('name', ')')] 17:15:16 :D 17:15:36 (a b (c) d) 17:15:37 -> 17:15:39 [('app', [('name', 'a'), ('name', 'b'), ('name', '('), ('name', 'c'), ('name', ')')]), ('name', 'd'), ('name', ')')] 17:15:44 parses as 17:15:57 (a b ( c )) d ) 17:16:02 umm parsing opinions for hypothetical extensions of oklotalk--? :) how about you make oklotalk 17:16:03 where a ( or ) surrounded by a space is the atom 17:16:15 oklopol: making oklotalk is hard when there's no reference to implement it from :-D 17:17:05 yes, maybe it is somewhat unsimple. 17:28:06 this is an excelently-done rpg parody: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wwLrgxtALWs 17:28:29 oklopol: can we have oktobot 17:28:40 SimonRC: i watched that in 2007. 17:32:46 * ehird pirates mathematica!! 17:33:38 oklopol: 17:38:18 ooo 17:38:25 oklopol: oktabot 17:38:28 plzzz :) 17:38:56 oooooooooooooooo 17:38:59 -!- oktabot has joined. 17:39:04 hello dar 17:39:21 haihai 17:39:22 :: $2 17:39:22 2 17:39:26 :: (+ $2 $2) 17:39:27 + 17:39:31 lol ok, so it's 2 the name 17:39:32 :D 17:39:35 atom, rather 17:39:59 ya 17:40:25 mathematica in 30 MINUTES :D 17:40:27 oklopol: hokie 17:40:32 writing parser, y'see. 17:40:42 :: $() 17:40:43 An error: Unmatching parens @ row 1. 17:40:45 lol :D 17:40:53 :: $( 17:40:53 ( 17:40:58 mm 17:41:09 :: $(a 17:41:09 (a 17:41:11 :: $(a) 17:41:12 An error: Unmatching parens @ row 1. 17:41:15 $) 17:41:18 :: $) 17:41:18 ) 17:41:21 lol 17:41:21 ... 17:41:23 xD 17:41:46 wellllll you see i took the i don't care what happens in boundary cases approach. 17:41:55 because, well, it was kinda a language stub. 17:43:12 huh 17:43:15 I actually parse the same as you 17:43:22 ) -> the atom ')' 17:43:29 $(a) -> the atom '(a', then the variable name ')' 17:43:36 well, you parse ) as a real close paren, I just parse it as a var name 17:43:39 since there's no ( 17:43:40 xD 17:43:50 making sense is not required, never erroring is. 17:44:16 :=) 17:44:49 wonder how (->) should parse 17:44:52 welllllllllllllllllllllll 17:45:01 it'll parse as var (, var ->, var ) 17:45:19 (-> a) will prolly return $f. 17:45:34 i mean 17:45:37 when you run it 17:46:45 hmm. 17:46:51 oklopol: "$ a" parses as "the atom ' a'" 17:46:53 feature or bug? 17:47:08 ("$" parses as "the atom ''", so I was expecting (atom '', name 'a')) 17:47:52 [('atm', ''), ('name', 'a')] 17:47:53 tha's better 17:48:13 :: $ a 17:48:13 a 17:48:23 :: (+ $ a) 17:48:23 + 17:48:40 lol :D 17:48:43 wait that didn't test anything. 17:48:46 well anyway 17:48:48 no shit :D 17:48:50 i gotta go i thinks 17:48:51 :: [$ a] 17:48:51 [ a] 17:48:57 exactly 17:48:59 oklopol: did you ever impl nopol? 17:49:03 sure 17:49:09 nopol2, to be specific 17:49:10 o rly?? 17:49:12 bot?? 17:49:14 umm yeah 17:49:23 i musta missed this 17:49:26 :DDDD 17:49:37 bot plz?? 17:49:48 nopol has an object oriented bot 8| 17:49:56 8| 17:49:58 rly? 17:49:58 wutwut 17:50:04 i thought i always use that same one :D 17:50:08 lolz 17:50:36 -!- nopolie has joined. 17:50:38 hello dar 17:50:44 hi nopolie 17:50:46 whats ur prefix 17:51:02 ^parse ::: 17:51:02 (+::: ) 17:51:06 mmkay 17:51:17 ^parse <: <...> <::>> 17:51:17 (+ (+: (+... ) (+:: ))) 17:51:21 ^eval <> 17:51:24 :<< 17:51:27 ^run <: <...> <::>> 17:51:27 global name 'rawunparse_' is not defined 17:51:30 :D 17:51:34 nice erroring 17:51:36 :DDD lol 17:51:38 oh wait 17:51:50 was that the bot that got broken and i didn't fix it 17:51:55 :D 17:52:05 i mean the nopol interp never errors iirc 17:52:50 :. 17:53:01 thassa smiley 17:53:03 look at it sideways 17:53:13 -!- nopolie has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:53:34 -!- nopolie has joined. 17:53:37 no idea what i changed, but i'm optimistic about this. 17:53:41 ^run <:> 17:53:41 list index out of range 17:53:43 xD 17:53:50 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:54:02 okay, i have unparse, unparse_ and rawunparse 17:54:11 (now what the fuck are those) 17:54:16 -!- CakeProphet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:54:16 -!- fungot has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:54:16 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:54:20 -!- nopolie has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:54:30 such peer pressue 17:54:31 pressure 17:54:33 it saw a netsplit 17:54:36 and had to go alongwith it 17:55:31 -!- nopolie has joined. 17:55:35 let's try one more random thing 17:55:37 ^run <:> 17:55:38 list index out of range 17:55:41 :| 17:55:44 well fuck you 17:55:45 sorry to ruin your hopes and ruin your dreams 17:55:46 :( 17:58:22 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:59:12 well. maybe i'll look into that some day. i don't remember what was broken about it, and i'd have to debug to find out. 17:59:21 :<< 17:59:30 ^parse :<< 17:59:30 (+: (+ (+ ))) 17:59:52 so um parse works 17:59:59 and 18:00:00 err 18:00:03 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 18:00:13 unparse works too 18:00:27 so somehow after evaluation the code has changed its structure 18:00:28 ...somehow 18:00:31 well 18:00:33 i don't care 18:00:37 i mean i do 18:00:38 but i don't 18:00:41 :<< 18:02:43 what is the language? 18:02:51 nopol2 18:03:24 I see. What sort of language is it? I guess there is no specs? 18:03:27 are* 18:05:29 it's nopular 18:05:38 it has turing complete NOPs 18:05:41 using negative-depth lists 18:05:46 (a) is depth 1, ((b)) is depth 2 18:05:49 it has depth -1, -2, etc 18:05:50 ah this sounds familiar... 18:05:54 a is depth 0, naturally 18:06:07 is this an old one? 18:06:12 basically, a negative depth list snatches all the elements around it to create a new positive list with its elements and those 18:06:15 AnMaster: yeah 18:06:20 iz weird tree rewriting stuphs..... 18:06:29 old is yes quite. 18:06:34 because this thing with nop and negative depth list sounds very familiar 18:06:42 and one I remember confused me a lot 18:06:49 yeah ehird just didn't know i'd implemented it 18:06:52 apparently 18:06:56 ah 18:07:03 oklopol's languages are just awesome 18:07:05 of course, it seems i technically haven't implemented it anymore, because it doesn't work. 18:07:13 happy australian mailman reminders day 18:07:25 * AnMaster opens mail client 18:07:33 none yet 18:07:43 i said australian 18:07:47 ah 18:08:03 unfortunately the really insane ones refuse to be realized. except graphica. but for some reason people aren't interested in languages you can only use to create graphs. 18:08:04 well I noticed lots of mailing lists sends the message one day late 18:08:13 oklopol, oklotalk? 18:08:20 oklotalk-- isn't that insane 18:08:25 hm ok 18:08:31 i implemented the sane subset with a semisane syntax 18:08:59 Al/_:¨ 18:09:12 I wonder what A-hat and .. do 18:09:16 of course the way you can do imperative kinda control flow using pattern matching, and how things are functions and objects are kinda weird features. 18:09:18 ehird, A hat? 18:09:18 (Cise prime) 18:09:20 but, they aren't insane 18:09:21 -!- fizzie has joined. 18:09:22 AnMaster: A with ^ on top. 18:09:25 hm 18:09:26 right 18:09:28  18:09:35 ehird, that is A with 2 dots here.. 18:09:46 small font 18:09:50 AnMaster: no, your font just sucks 18:09:53 ehird: encoding issue 18:09:57 Deewiant, indeed that is the issue 18:09:57 should be just umlaut. 18:10:08 ah 18:10:08  has a caret 18:10:12 Ä has an umlaut 18:10:16 or diaeresis 18:10:22 is what it's actually called IIRC 18:10:23 the correct program is Al/_Ä 18:10:25 Al/_: 18:10:30 so what does Ä do, oklopol 18:10:32 oh wait 18:10:33 just the ¨ 18:10:35 not the A? 18:10:37 ehird, and that is nopol? 18:10:38 Al/_¨ 18:10:42 AnMaster: no, that's Cise 18:10:44 ehird: i think it's [0..n] 18:10:47 which is oklopol's golfing lang 18:10:52 ehird, oh I see 18:10:56 AnMaster: brainfuck without IO in cise: 18:10:57 ;I,;mc,[]{"[]"},=}!!b->"+"+mC1"-"-mC1">"+C1"<"-C1{;X}Wh=mC0=}X??b 18:11:07 or was it [1..n] or [0..n] based on whichever made more sense in context... 18:11:08 ehird, more golfed than golfscript? 18:11:11 yes. 18:11:14 cool 18:11:16 mergesort '/,)#< 18:11:18 quicksort /2;A b:C,',JnB 18:11:27 ehird, they should add on anarchy golf 18:11:32 if it isn't there already 18:11:32 yeah sure 18:11:34 no interp. 18:11:38 add it without an interp or a spec 18:11:38 oh 18:11:42 AnMaster: it actually tries all possible parsings (it's very ambiguous) and picks the one that uses types most "correctly" 18:11:52 nice 18:11:59 does it have a spec or anything? 18:12:05 there's a parser though, i just haven't implemented the less interesting parts 18:12:06 ehird, so this is one instruction per char with jumps or such? 18:12:46 Deewiant: there's a small spec-kinda thing on my computer, but it's not public. but i'm planning to add specs to all the languages on /oklopol/ as soon as possible. 18:12:54 i mean 18:12:56 roger roger 18:13:05 at lest the parts that exist in my head. 18:13:08 *least 18:13:12 AnMaster: way more complex. 18:13:16 it's funcitonal, sorta. 18:13:17 *functional 18:13:27 interesting 18:13:35 yeah functional, and ...pattern matchingal 18:13:50 oklopol, well I like that 18:14:00 pattern matching functional languages are fun to code in 18:14:01 and easy 18:14:08 usually at least 18:14:10 hm 18:14:17 pattern matching is a crucial part of making it terse, you do stuff to input, cut it in parts with pattern matching syntax, and introduce assertions to guide the syntax-error backtracking, repeat 18:14:18 but with that terse syntax, no idea 18:14:34 oklopol, oh nice backtracking too 18:14:36 :D 18:14:39 TC I assume? 18:14:48 well there's that bf interp. 18:14:53 ah yes 18:14:54 forgot that 18:15:13 ehird: did Ursala inspire that much? 18:15:19 SimonRC: I don't think so. 18:15:35 AnMaster: the pattern matching is not easy. it's a mindfuck; but, let's hope you can read it in /cise.txt after a while. 18:15:51 oklopol, /cise.txt where? 18:16:23 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/cise.txt 18:16:30 what is the topic all about? 18:17:03 (= a) 18:17:04 -> 18:17:05 [('name', '('), ('name', '='), ('name', 'a'), ('name', ')'), ('name', ')')] 18:17:08 SimonRC: Stuff that happens there. 18:18:08 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 18:18:19 to be doing the happening 18:18:38 ugh a bug. 18:19:33 oklopol, um that link doesn't really explains how it works 18:19:53 [('assign', ('name', 'a'), ('lst', [('int', 1), ('int', 2), ('app', [('name', '+'), ('int', 2), ('int', 2)])])), ('name', ']'), ('name', ')')] 18:19:54 fail 18:20:01 for example how does merge sort work '/,)#< 18:20:15 oklopol, can you describe how it is parsed and executed 18:20:45 AnMaster: i can and i have, on this channel 18:20:53 oklopol, where/when? 18:21:01 * AnMaster looks in scrollback 18:21:20 oklopol, not recently? 18:21:34 AnMaster: don't remember; anyway seriously, i will try to spec up the languages enough to quench ppl's curiosity, once i have the time 18:21:44 oklopol, right :) 18:21:44 currently all my non-irc time is pretty much university time. 18:21:51 yay it works 18:22:04 AnMaster: nope not recently. 18:22:06 (= a [1 2 (+ 2 2 18:22:08 parses as 18:22:09 around the time it was invented 18:22:11 (= a [1 2 (+ 2 2)]) 18:22:13 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 18:22:17 oklopol, and that was? 18:22:27 2008? 18:23:16 :: "\n" 18:23:24 where da oktabot @ 18:24:48 omg omg omg 2 minutes tom athematica 18:24:49 :DDDD 18:25:34 Who is Tom Athematica, ehird? 18:25:45 i wish i knew. 18:27:59 OMG 18:28:03 MATHEMATICA IS FREAKING MIIIIIINE 18:28:04 ^___________^ 18:28:20 LET's try this |: 18:29:10 Image^2 18:29:19 Yay 18:29:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:32:06 OMG INSTALLING MATHEMATICA GUYZ 18:32:11 bye bye 1.3GB 18:32:37 ehird: look at the positive side, you cannot lose your sanity - again 18:34:59 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:48:03 also, if google's harmful site detection breaks, it should say so rather than choosing either true or false as default 18:48:44 MAYBE THEY CAN'T A CODE LOL :DDD 18:59:49 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:02:22 oerjan, IWC was interesting today 19:02:27 I wonder how/if that will develop 19:02:46 whew! i actually managed to read IWC before AnMaster commented on it :D 19:03:02 oerjan, I read it around 15:00 or so every day 19:03:06 why don't you? 19:03:57 i would, if that was about the time i logged on. but today it isn't. 19:06:12 usually i go email -> log on irc -> irc logs -> IWC, and the last days you managed to get me before i finish the logs 19:06:21 haha 19:07:14 oerjan, just read IWC before irc? 19:07:17 solves the issue neatly 19:07:42 um but irc is a continuous matter 19:07:49 also darth and droids and square root of minus garfield of course (on those days) 19:08:00 what? 19:08:41 oh well i guess it could work 19:08:49 -!- alex89ru has joined. 19:09:11 * oerjan read that domain as gesundheit.de 19:25:24 ehird, there? 19:26:42 http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/this-site-may-harm-your-computer-on.html 19:26:47 if you haven't seen it already 19:28:11 also it seems that stopbadware went down due to lots of people trying to access it after the issue 19:28:19 so 19:28:53 also, if google's harmful site detection breaks, it should say so rather than choosing either true or false as default <-- irrelevant since that wasn't the issue. The issue was according to google human error adding '/' as a bad url which for some reason matched all urls 19:29:41 ooooooooooooooooooooo 19:29:43 http://blog.stopbadware.org/2009/01/31/google-glitch-causes-confusion (if that loads for you, seem to be very slow atm) 19:30:00 lllllllllllllllllllll 19:30:15 (as in several minutes load time) 19:30:42 bacj 19:30:43 back 19:31:09 "[Update 1:36] Google updated its statement to reflect that StopBadware does not provide Google’s badware data." 19:31:10 also 19:32:07 MATHEMATICA TIME 19:32:15 mathe mathe maaaa 19:32:27 pirated software is so... yummu 19:32:28 yummy 19:33:07 public logs 19:35:35 umm, so? 19:35:59 you could be arrested 19:36:03 maybe even killed 19:36:04 haha 19:36:10 (or worse) 19:36:31 za! 19:36:35 * ehird runs keygen ^.^ 19:36:36 ehird 19:36:41 uh oh 19:36:47 u want your opinion 19:36:52 what 19:36:57 i* 19:37:08 lalala 19:37:11 parallels desktop 19:37:13 keygen.exe 19:37:19 You will not be able to start virtual machines until you activate Parallels Desktop. If you have a valid activation key, click Activate Product. You can find the activation key in the product box from a retail store or in the e-mail confirming your online purchase. Otherwise, purchase a permanent activation key or obtain a free trial activation key. 19:37:21 fuck yooooooouuuuuu 19:37:30 * ehird gets another free trial lol 19:37:58 ehird, what about free ones 19:38:03 AnMaster: what 19:38:21 I mean wouldn't qemu work just fine for something as simple as running a keygen? 19:38:31 if it exists for OS X 19:38:34 yeah but i'm used to parallels and I have windows already installed on it 19:38:36 which iirc it does? 19:38:36 qeqeqeqeqeqe 19:38:38 * ehird boots up 19:38:38 what do you think i should include as a primitive operation in my language? i've got +-*/ and a generic substitute operation 19:38:41 ehird, ok good point 19:38:59 and parallels is kind of like winzip 19:39:03 you can sign up for new free trial keys 19:39:03 plus predefined but not primitive logic operations 19:39:04 forever 19:39:06 psygnisf_: have you considered (a xor b - 7) 19:39:15 why no, i haven't! 19:39:17 psygnisf_, only one: substract and branch if not zero 19:39:33 golfing might be interesting for languages with complicated and somewhat random primitives. 19:39:49 that would make sense, anmaster, if there was an actual sequence of instructions to be followed. 19:39:53 but there isnt. :P 19:39:53 oklopol, abbreviated intercal? 19:40:02 WOULD YOU LIKE TO INSTALL PARLLELS INTERNET SECURITY POWERED BY KASPERSKY AND GET A FREE ANUAL SUBSCRIPTION? 19:40:04 no, go away. 19:40:06 psygnisf_, well what I described was OISC basically 19:40:13 i know :P 19:40:15 AnMaster: i'm thinking more randomize_instruction_set()->golf(). 19:40:21 wait 19:40:26 *" -> " rather 19:40:33 Unable to connect Floppy Disk 1. 19:40:34 A file or device required for the operation of Floppy Disk 1 does not exist or is used by another process, or you have no permission to access it. The virtual machine will continue running, but the device will be disconnected. 19:40:37 how will I do without a floppy!!11 19:40:54 ehird, why would anyone need a floppy these days!? 19:41:01 this is a VM floppy. 19:41:03 well 19:41:05 even so 19:41:05 and, for running old stuff 19:41:05 duh 19:41:08 oh 19:41:09 right 19:41:24 * ehird keygen.exe -->drag into parallels--> 19:41:25 well, I thought *mac* users wouldn't need any floppy! 19:41:26 ;P 19:41:37 woop, it's just like all keygens 19:41:44 it draws its own gray-on-black window 19:41:49 ehird, you mean, built in spyware too? 19:41:50 and has a demo with weird music and gfx in the top 19:41:56 AnMaster: naw, hardly any keygens have tht 19:41:57 *that 19:42:04 it's very ... demoscene 19:42:10 well that is common too 19:42:36 ehird, I have a theory about that though... 19:42:42 also alternatively, what should i be considering for things like IO, since the language is lazy 19:42:45 WOO 19:42:46 IT WORKED 19:42:49 It use the user reaction as random seed. 19:42:54 that is, if a webcam exists 19:42:55 psygnisf_: monads. 19:42:58 AnMaster: ha, that would be fun 19:42:58 i dont want to construct the whole monad thing :| 19:43:05 psygnisf_: it's two functions 19:43:16 monads a) confuse me, b) confuse me, c) confuse me. 19:43:30 1. understand them 19:43:31 2. profit. 19:43:39 ehird, well that is the only plausible explanation of demos in keygens 19:43:40 -!- ski__ has quit (SendQ exceeded). 19:43:49 AnMaster: why? 19:43:51 it's all about scene cred 19:43:53 ehird, hey you need at least three steps 19:43:57 the cooler your keygen demo, the cooler your group. 19:43:59 and one should be ??? 19:44:07 no, ??? is in fact "make internet meme"[1] 19:44:09 [1] gaucho theory 19:44:25 ehird, well I thought that was what you were trying to do 19:44:26 and haskell nomads is already a /prog/ meme. 19:44:30 so you can skip that step. 19:44:35 psygnisf_: You could evaluate those functions that call non-lazy (=I/O) functions immediately. 19:44:39 ah 19:44:40 ok 19:44:44 I was thinking that I could just have a universal variable that was defined at the beginning of each program execution called IO, and when you did like (read IO) it would evaluate to some new item that represented the next io state 19:44:44 MizardX: or just evaluate the IO bits strictly 19:44:46 my WIP lang has that 19:44:51 it's rather complicated and non-intuitive 19:44:55 ehird, /prog/? Does that actually exist on 4chan or whatever? 19:45:01 AnMaster: it's a text board on 4chan 19:45:05 i.e. no images 19:45:21 mhm 19:45:28 In[1]:= 2 + 2 19:45:29 Out[1]= 4 19:45:32 ehird, is it as silly as the rest of it? 19:45:32 yay. 19:45:33 MizardX: yes, thats what i intend to do, the problem is more whether or not i want to consider side effects with IO given the laziness. 19:45:48 AnMaster: rather. 19:45:59 rather >what> 19:46:00 err 19:46:04 s/>/ (hey that almost looks like a smiley) 19:46:16 rather silly. 19:46:19 ah 19:46:45 but, you know, they're [b][i][u][spoiler]EXPERT [spoiler]BB[sup]Code[/sup][/spoiler] PROGRAMMERS[/spoiler][/u][/i][/b] so it all balances out. 19:47:09 ehird, I'm not very familiar with this markup language you use 19:47:17 It's BBCode 19:47:20 ehird, any other things you think i should consider? 19:47:25 oh that forum thing 19:47:39 what does "[spoiler]" do? 19:47:47 Makes it black on black text until you hover over 19:47:49 and it becomes white on black 19:47:55 I compiled it just for you: 19:47:55 http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1233430884/1-40 19:47:58 oh I just had an idea, a forum software using LaTeX for markup 19:48:00 Needs CSS2.0(TM) 19:48:22 Easier with markdown 19:48:29 "Specified thread ID does not exist"? 19:48:39 AnMaster: that's the error it gave me when I didn't enter a subject. 19:48:42 shiichan is... rather buggy. 19:48:42 ah 19:48:50 shiichan's bbcode even has comments. 19:48:54 [rem]can't touch this[/rem] 19:49:00 DID SOMEONE SAY SHII? (*__) 19:49:04 ehird, um dis.*? 19:49:07 AnMaster: discussion 19:49:09 ah 19:49:16 Slereah2: Quite. Btw, why is Mathematica's input method weird? 19:49:20 When the cursor goes horizontal. 19:49:26 Because it is shit 19:49:33 Apart from that 19:49:48 In[11]:= 1/0 19:49:48 During evaluation of In[11]:= Power::infy: Infinite expression 1/0 encountered. >> 19:49:49 Also beware : when you change something, you have to re-confirm EVERY LINE 19:49:49 Out[11]= ComplexInfinity 19:49:53 the 1/0 actually displays as 19:49:54 If it's far back 19:49:54 1 19:49:55 1 19:49:57 -0 19:49:59 err 19:50:01 1 19:50:03 - 19:50:05 0 19:50:07 :D 19:50:38 Slereah2: how come you have to press enter to complete 19:50:39 not return 19:50:40 :< 19:51:37 AGH 19:51:40 I defined x and now it's persisting 19:51:49 I've done some Mathematica too and really hated it. They should have used scheme instead. 19:51:57 Quite. 19:52:03 I just wanna play with it for its graphical manipulation and stuff. 19:52:05 Slereah2: how come you have to press enter to complete not return <-- ??? 19:52:07 The actual languagei s perverse. 19:52:11 AnMaster: Well, shift-enter also words. 19:52:13 but enter = numpad return 19:52:15 on macs 19:52:26 um didn't you have a laptop? 19:52:44 also as far as I know they are the same key? Both generate same scancode I think 19:52:53 actually scratch that 19:53:18 AnMaster: Since when do I use a laptop? 19:53:28 Also, yes, I believe so, but not in the GUI env. 19:53:32 ehird, I thought you had a macbook of some type? 19:53:34 They're distinguished quite often. 19:53:36 AnMaster: no, iMac 19:53:39 ah right 19:53:43 which is a stupid name btw. 19:53:47 i cringe whenever I type it. 19:53:48 hm xev claims both generate the event KP_Enter 19:54:00 wait no 19:54:02 I misread 19:54:08 gah 19:54:14 hm indeed Return and KP_Enter 19:54:16 interesting 19:54:33 ehird, iAgree with you about the problem with the name iMac 19:54:46 you think PHP's "just shit everything into the main namespace" is bad? 19:54:48 mathematica has 19:54:51 almost 3,000 19:54:53 built in functions 19:55:04 3 0 0 0 19:55:07 but php has namespaces now with \ iirc 19:57:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("Bussy"). 19:57:08 "Bussy" 19:57:09 ? 19:57:13 Does complex numbers' square roots also always have two roots? (as with real ones) 19:57:28 AnMaster: bus -sy 19:57:30 Yes. 19:57:31 as in, he's going to the bus. 19:57:34 to go home. 19:57:34 aha 19:57:35 I assume. 19:57:39 makes sense 19:57:42 There are two square roots for all numbers, FireFly 19:57:51 I have to admit... Mathematica is quite fun, even if it sucks. 19:57:54 Yeah, just wondering if it applies to complex ones too 19:57:57 Because they are 180 rotations in the complex plane 19:58:00 I mean, the glob of functions is just... fun. 19:58:10 ehird, better or worse than php? 19:58:14 ehird: it sucks? 19:58:21 Hm.. 19:58:21 AnMaster: Well, PHP isn't even fun. 19:58:34 also what do you mean "glob of functions"? as in sq*() -> sqrt()? 19:58:34 AnMaster: But like I said, Mathematica has *3,000* mainspace builtins. 19:58:39 (R * e^if)^1/2 = sqrt(R) * e(if/2) 19:58:43 glob = a gloopy heap 19:58:56 gloopy: slimy, etc 19:59:00 ehird, glob == wild card expanding, see jargon dictionary 19:59:03 I know. 19:59:06 but ok it means what you said too 20:02:47 ArrayPlot[CellularAutomaton[30, {{1}, 0}, 50]] works. 20:02:48 Neat. 20:04:00 I'm not fond of the language, but the environment is neat. 20:04:21 Of course, no way in hell I'd pay Wolfram thousands of pounds for it... 20:05:14 yes, the whole package is powerful. 20:06:40 -!- yoR has joined. 20:06:57 ColorNegate[ 20:06:57 ArrayPlot[CellularAutomaton[30, {{1, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1}, 0}, 50]]] 20:07:00 hee, that works. 20:08:58 ehird: try Maxima 20:09:15 It uses Tk. 20:09:18 Consider me unimpressed. :P 20:09:29 What language does it use? 20:09:32 Looks like a C-esque. 20:11:45 I'm not sure. I know it's coded on Common Lisp. 20:13:59 lalala 20:14:41 that looks like it could be logo maybe. im fairly certain logo has wonky []-for-() stuff 20:14:43 same with tcl 20:14:59 no. 20:15:02 that's Mathematica. 20:15:06 I was talking about maxima. 20:15:07 oh is it? 20:15:16 btw, logo has [] as lambda 20:15:16 ah ok. 20:15:22 tcl has [] as "evaluate this" 20:15:23 hm. 20:15:23 that is 20:15:27 + 2 [+ 3 3] 20:15:29 or 20:15:31 "hello [expr]!" 20:16:02 hrrm, usenet is slow today 20:16:16 or could be my ipv6 tunnel that is slow 20:16:40 Mathematica 6 is "only" 200 eur for students, and when you graduate you must upgrade it to the full version, but with a 75 % discount. (I think the student license used to be something significantly <200 back when it was 5.something.) 20:19:01 #+2&/@{1,2,3} 20:19:02 J or K? 20:19:04 Nope. Mathematica. 20:19:20 fizzie: I'm not sure they'd count me as a "student" 20:19:23 also, that parses as 20:19:29 ((# + 2) &) /@ {1,2,3} 20:19:36 where & postfix is the "make a function yo" operator 20:19:40 # is the first arg in a function 20:19:41 and /@ is map 20:20:39 (# + ## &)[2, 3] -> 7 20:21:06 Didn't it do #1, #2, ... too? 20:21:32 yep 20:21:45 interesting syntax 20:21:50 quite esoteric 20:22:02 fizzie: it also has ##2 20:22:06 which I assume is the third argument. 20:22:24 aha, wait 20:22:29 (##1&)[1,2] 20:22:30 -> 20:22:32 Sequence[1,2] 20:22:33 odd. 20:23:00 MATLAB has anonymous functions defined like @(a, b) a+b 20:23:13 that's like so less fun though. 20:23:21 a postfix operator that you give an expression is so much more... lulzy 20:24:07 also, Function[x] == (x&) 20:24:13 You can do the more "conventional": 20:24:17 Function[x, x+2] 20:24:18 And also 20:24:23 Function[{x,y}, x+y] 20:24:32 But #+##& is so much more fun, no? 20:26:13 Mathematica syntax is ideal for all those brainf*ck lovers. :) 20:26:31 Quite. 20:26:34 I remember hammer it for hours till it worked. 20:26:35 Hmm, I wonder how it does scoping. 20:28:06 Lexical or dynamic, depending on whether you use Module[vars, body] or Block[vars, body]. 20:28:09 Y[f] := Function[x, f[x[x][#] &]][Function[x, f[x[x][#] &]]] 20:28:22 Excersize for the reader: remove the [f] and the Function parts, and make it all #s and &s. 20:30:18 Excersize? 20:30:25 Uh, I can't spell 20:30:26 hah 20:30:26 :p 20:30:33 mathematica needs a "give me something to do" button. 20:30:36 ehird, the typo was funny 20:30:47 Meh, MATLAB syntax is so crummy. I can't make it call an anonymous function without sticking it in a variable; the only form of function call is "name(args)", which must have a name in there. 20:31:05 ehird, I can provide that: Solve one of unsolved the millennium problems 20:31:51 :< 20:31:52 ehird: Y[f] := (f[#[#][#2] &]&)(f[#[#][#2] &]&) ? 20:32:12 Deewiant: hmm, so #2 works if it's the first argument? 20:32:15 i mean, it 'remembers'? 20:32:18 and stacks them? 20:32:27 hmm, right 20:32:32 not sure actually 20:32:38 i mean that's be awesome if so. 20:32:41 probably not 20:32:46 I kinda misread what you were doing 20:33:00 ehird: but anyhoo, you also need the LHS to say f_ and not f 20:33:07 In[109]:= Sin[1000] 20:33:07 Out[109]= Sin[1000] 20:33:11 umm, thanks Mathematica 20:33:20 ehird: most precise answer it can give. 20:33:25 :-D 20:33:48 Sin[]? 20:33:52 Well, you can just N[] it. 20:33:52 weird notation 20:34:00 AnMaster: [] is function call 20:34:07 ehird, yes I find that weird 20:34:13 it is weird. 20:34:19 normally in math notation you just write sin 1000 20:34:25 it's not "weird" 20:34:29 it's unusual 20:34:32 tru. 20:34:35 but it is not, by any meaning of the word, weird 20:34:38 AnMaster: That kind of fails when you nest anything 20:34:48 it turns into lisp 20:34:51 ehird, then you use () 20:34:52 ehird: works well enough in Haskell :-P 20:34:54 as in 20:35:00 sin(1000 * 2000) 20:35:02 Deewiant: sure, but haskell doesn't have the massively-nested exprs mathematica does. 20:35:21 ehird: sure it would if we didn't have . and $ :-P 20:35:26 that reminds me, check out the channels #1,000 and #2,000 20:35:28 tru tru 20:35:38 AnMaster: umm, welcome to jackassville 20:35:41 population++ 20:35:47 wtf made you think that was a good idea 20:35:53 ehird, I would never think anyone here would fall for it 20:35:55 --- 20:35:56 -_-* 20:36:07 i'm pretty sure not everyone here is an irc whiz 20:36:27 well no one parted yet? 20:36:49 proves I'm right 20:36:57 what'd be special about those? 20:36:58 and if someone does it now 20:37:04 no, proves that nobody online is 20:37:12 Deewiant, join 0 == part all channels 20:37:13 1. non-apathetic enough to try 20:37:17 2. not an irc whiz 20:37:18 AnMaster: aha 20:37:20 and join #1,#s 20:37:21 so 20:37:30 it turns into join #1 followed by join 0 20:37:37 I always forget the syntax for joining multiple channels :-P 20:38:00 Deewiant, a comma in between 20:38:07 no shit 20:40:06 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 20:41:47 "Based on original algorithms developed at Wolfram Research" 20:41:53 I swear if I read this one more time I will kill somebody. 20:42:48 Did you know that Wolfram Research proved that the 2,3 machine is TC? 20:43:15 lulz 20:43:54 (newbies: Wolfram Research ran a prize to prove that, #esoteric denizen ais523 did so.) 20:44:49 Slereah2, they claim that? 20:44:56 no 20:45:00 he was making a "joke" 20:45:08 an odd thing; it's a lie where people know it's a lie 20:45:12 but it's a lie in a way that it's funny. 20:45:35 It's funny because it's untrue 20:45:39 (I figure if I explain humour enough times you're bound to catch on eventually) 20:45:57 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 20:46:04 It's like love. 20:46:30 funny because untrue? 20:52:45 ListAnimate[ 20:52:45 ArrayPlot @/ CellularAutomaton[GameOfLife, InitialGrid, 100]] 20:52:47 Let's try this then. 20:52:54 Fail :( 20:52:57 It's /@. 20:53:03 argh 20:53:08 Now it works!! 20:53:09 Woo!! 20:53:23 I said that it's /@ before you noticed but I forgot to IRC-escape the / 20:53:28 :DD 20:53:30 Hrm.... 20:53:34 Now how do I make this infinite... 20:53:37 As opposed to just 100 steps. 20:53:41 Well, I guess I'll try passing Infinity. 20:53:46 As I am blissfully naive 20:53:48 You might run out of memory 20:53:53 o_O 20:53:54 Why? 20:53:58 It only needs the previous state... 20:54:02 I think it precomputes the whole thing 20:54:08 ,,lol 20:54:11 Something similar did, anyway 20:54:14 Feel free to try 20:54:21 Well hrm. 20:54:28 I just need a sort of... transitionanimate. 20:54:33 i.e., result becomes input 20:55:10 Try that, it might work 20:55:17 Or just raise it to 10000 first or something 20:55:20 The Infinity thing? 20:55:21 It phailed. 20:55:30 meh 20:55:41 10,000 is just eating my memory up nicely. 20:55:49 Thought so 20:55:57 You crashed mathematica I think :< 20:56:07 I didn't do anything, you did :-P 20:56:21 You told me to :P 20:56:41 It was more a suggestion than an order :-P 20:57:00 u suk 20:57:23 Duuuuuuuude 20:57:26 You crashed the ENGINE 20:57:26 ! 20:57:27 :| 20:57:33 s/ENGINE/KERNEL/ 20:57:37 whatev 20:57:37 Just quit it 20:57:47 Or kill it if that doesn't work 20:57:47 Yeah but now I lost my initial grid 20:57:48 :P 20:57:55 And my game of life spec 20:57:58 You don't have to kill the UI 20:58:03 Phool 20:58:03 no 20:58:04 it lost my vars 20:58:11 when I quit the engine 20:58:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:58:24 hi ais523 20:58:26 It should still have whatever you typed in before 20:58:31 Unless you deleted it, of course :-P 20:58:32 Deewiant: notebook crashed 20:58:43 ais523: I'm trying out mathematica. 20:59:17 ehird: finally got your trial copy? 20:59:19 anyway, I'm very busy in RL 20:59:28 I've been very ill since Wednesday afternoon 20:59:32 For values of trial copy equal to pirate. 20:59:34 And oh dear. 20:59:41 and haven't been able to do anything really, RL work or anything else 20:59:43 What values of "very ill" are we talking? 21:03:00 I'll take that as "high ones". 21:03:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:03:33 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:03:42 Or perhaps "IRC problems". 21:06:48 ais523: hi 21:11:02 -!- alex89ru has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:11:53 -!- ais523__ has joined. 21:12:04 -!- ais523__ has changed nick to ais523_. 21:12:14 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:12:16 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 21:25:06 i like being sick, but i never am 21:25:09 well, i also hate being sick 21:25:17 depends who you ask. 21:25:53 hi ais 21:25:55 ais523: 21:28:33 oklopol: I'm sure they have some sort of pills to make you sick by now. Shouldn't be all that difficult. 21:30:08 -!- ais523_ has joined. 21:30:16 hi ais523_ 21:31:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Connection timed out). 21:32:09 As you may have guessed, the wireless internet here is being really 21:32:10 temperamental at the moment; I'm only getting a few seconds of 21:32:10 connectivity every few tens of minutes. So I'm writing this in an email, 21:32:12 and I'll set my mail client to send it to you the next moment I get a 21:32:15 connection. 21:32:18 ais523's connection is fucked up so he has to use batch mode communication. 21:33:50 -!- ais523_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:33:56 -!- ais523__ has joined. 21:35:18 ais523__: are you reading this? 21:35:23 I sent off a batch email summary. 21:35:28 ehird: yes, I'm reading that 21:35:31 not sure if you'll get my reply 21:35:35 I see it. 21:35:40 but this connection's been stable for over a minute, possibly a record 21:35:44 -!- ais523__ has changed nick to ais532. 21:35:46 -!- ais532 has changed nick to ais523. 21:36:06 lifting the laptop a metre off the floor seems to help 21:36:10 ... 21:36:12 wat 21:36:29 and got your batch summary 21:37:26 Maybe you should switch to carrier pigeons, they sound more reliable. 21:39:10 -!- X-Scale has left (?). 21:43:14 I've always wanted to build a http://ronja.twibright.com/ (there's just something attractive about the idea) but I don't know anyone who'd live line-of-sight-nearby enough. 21:43:39 ais523: Your connection still ticking? 21:45:20 hello ais523 21:45:21 I will take that as a "no". 21:45:24 AnMaster: His connection is b0rked. 21:45:37 He's also been ill since wednesday. 21:45:39 Try email if you need to tell him anything. 21:45:44 oh 21:46:05 ehird, no was just going to chat aimlessly 21:46:05 ;P 21:46:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:46:25 doo doo 21:50:24 doo doo dee doo 21:50:34 ehird, since you think monads are so trivial, you explain them to me 21:50:38 sure 21:50:45 a is a type taking one argument 21:50:47 return :: a -> m a 21:50:52 -> is a function 21:50:58 bind :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b 21:51:01 tada 21:51:03 i know -> for type notations :P 21:51:04 gonads. 21:52:57 and strife. 21:53:14 also 21:53:21 there's additional constraints: 21:53:30 bind (return a) f 21:53:34 must = 21:53:34 f a 21:53:41 bind m return 21:53:42 must = 21:53:42 m 21:53:51 bind (bind m f) g 21:53:53 must = 21:54:01 bind m (\x -> bind (f x) g) 21:54:04 tada. 21:54:46 yeah psygnisf_ behold the axioms of monads 21:54:54 and see. 21:54:57 naw. 21:55:00 the type sigs are the axioms. 21:55:00 wait what? bind m return == m? 21:55:05 the constraints are the laws. 21:55:08 psygnisf_: yes. 21:55:20 so return for monads is the id function 21:55:25 i don't see a difference 21:55:26 not really 21:55:31 psygnisf_: 21:55:32 or a similarity. 21:55:35 return :: a -> m a 21:55:41 bind :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b 21:55:43 so 21:55:45 if we do 21:55:47 bind m return 21:55:51 return gets the unwrapped value of m 21:55:54 and wraps it again 21:55:59 thus, (bind m return) must = m 21:58:28 * SimonRC finds it clearer with let x >>= f = bind f x 21:58:34 no 21:58:37 bind x f 21:58:39 in mine 21:58:42 oops 21:58:46 I was just avoiding the symbolzz 21:58:46 :P 21:59:01 Symbolzz 21:59:06 They have more shizzle 21:59:28 Oddly, IO have just been learning about comonads. They are some of the things that look like you could make into a monad but turn out not to work really. 21:59:33 s/IO/I/ X-D 21:59:34 s/IO/I/ 21:59:37 snap 21:59:46 heh 22:00:05 -!- ais523_ has joined. 22:00:17 hi ais523_ 22:00:20 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:00:21 yay, it actually stayed connected long enough for me to join the channel 22:00:25 and even see ehird say hi! 22:00:31 woop woop! 22:00:38 comonads are like bizarro-monads 22:01:13 instead of having (a -> m a) and (m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b) as operations... 22:01:15 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 22:01:24 ais523_: still thar? 22:01:35 yes 22:01:36 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 22:01:37 I think 22:01:40 yay 22:01:42 they have (w a -> a) and ... erm... 22:01:45 ugh 22:01:51 fizzie: I agree, carrier pigeons would be more reliable, if slower on average 22:02:04 ... w a -> (w a -> b) -> w b 22:02:04 SimonRC: looks a bit like a backwards monad 22:02:15 ehird if you said something after i mentioned binding m being id, i didnt get it 22:02:15 :( 22:02:20 ais523_: hence me saying they are bizarro-monads 22:02:22 ais523_ : Well, carrier pigeons could be faster 22:02:29 psygnisf_: read the logs 22:02:32 I explain it 22:02:43 Like if a carrier pigeon carried an 8GB flash drive 22:02:51 where for monads you can't easily "get things out of" them, for comands you can't easily "get things into" them 22:03:28 there is no general function for (Comonad w) => a -> w a 22:03:36 What kinds of things are comonads 22:03:47 That is to say, do you have examples of them 22:03:47 analogous to there being no general function for (Monad m) => m a -> a 22:04:29 Deewiant: try here http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2004/hsce/index.html 22:05:03 "Yes, I am aware that this is an unlikely scenario." 22:05:28 I am beginning to see how Data.InfiniteTree qualifies 22:06:12 Okay, now is there a use case for these :-P 22:06:59 maybe the idea is if you find yourself writing repetative code a lot, you might be able to spot that you need a comonad 22:07:24 I'm having trouble thinking of use cases for those types 22:10:13 I am asking about this on #haskell 22:12:02 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 22:14:23 ehird 22:14:28 the problame i guess is that like 22:15:38 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:16:01 i _get_ bind 22:16:08 and i _get_ return 22:16:53 psygnisf_: but... 22:17:28 what i _dont_ get is.. wtf do i do with this shit 22:17:40 well. 22:17:43 for an IO monad 22:17:46 wait, lemme type th is out 22:17:49 ok 22:17:51 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:18:15 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 22:18:37 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:19:43 its more that ive never seen any explanation of wtf good monad's are. the form is trivial. bind just unwraps a value and applies a function that wraps it back up 22:20:04 in a sense, bind is a flat-map 22:20:06 -!- kar8nga has joined. 22:20:11 or thats how ive learned it 22:20:29 psygnisf_: http://pastie.org/private/5dk2ijnlme4ikoghy5h0bw 22:20:32 that's an IO monad 22:20:38 there are more "theoretical" monads 22:20:44 but that will get you pure IO in your lang 22:20:52 another way is to build up a bind tree as the main value 22:20:54 lazily 22:20:58 and recurse through it 22:21:00 performing the actions 22:21:53 er 22:21:55 return b(result); 22:21:56 ofc 22:22:28 -!- ais523_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:22:53 psygnisf_: basically, what a monad gives you there 22:22:56 is that IO stuff can't "escape" 22:23:03 you can't put IO into a function that doesn't return an IO value 22:23:03 o.o? 22:23:09 due to the types of bind 22:23:14 there's no way to go from (m a) to a 22:23:17 permanently 22:23:20 well 22:23:22 if you have global variables 22:23:28 but that's not purely functional any more either. 22:24:07 there are no real variables as such 22:24:13 ehird enjoys his warm monad pie 22:24:24 psygnisf_: as long as you can't mutate global shit, IO is safe. 22:24:27 i enjoy ehirds warm monad pie too ;D 22:24:34 :| 22:25:00 i mean, the language is a rewriting system, so its inherently nothing but state 22:25:00 but 22:25:32 at the same time, its just a rewrite system, so there are no variables in the normal sense that we think of variables, etc. 22:25:47 it's a real brain teaser 22:25:52 and theres certainly no mutation of those variables. 22:25:57 no sirrydoo 22:26:00 wait 22:26:03 i'm not contributing 22:26:04 sorry. 22:26:49 don't you just love it when you make a program that only has half an ass, and you hand it out as the course project 22:26:59 and then the prof sends you an email telling you how great you did in the exam 22:27:02 also, ehird, i dont know wtf that pastie is telling me 22:27:11 and says he's waiting eagerly to see how great my project was. 22:27:20 i think psygnisf_'s main problem is that he doesn't understand english 22:27:31 psygnisf_: that you should use it wisely 22:27:43 i understand english fine. you're just not explaining anything :P 22:27:55 i need to see process to understand these things 22:28:11 you asked a question, I answered it, shrug. 22:28:11 i need to see what the hell is going on as this thing is used to understand what it actually does 22:28:22 it would help if your questions made sense 22:28:24 you answered it in a way that makes no sense, which amounts to not answering it at all. 22:28:41 makes sense to me, ymmw 22:28:42 *ymmv 22:28:55 yes but you understand monads already 22:33:52 i dont know. i dont think i can properly comprehend monads nevermind use them in this language. 22:33:58 monad pie getting cold? 22:34:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:34:06 a cool pie. 22:34:09 hi ais523 22:34:14 i'm feeling extremely insane atm 22:34:19 just fyi 22:34:26 i might just use impure IO stuff. i dont think it'd matter all that much, really. 22:34:37 oklopol: you're ALWAYS extremely insane 22:34:40 is it lazily evaluate, psygnisf_? 22:34:43 if so, don't even bother 22:34:45 ais523: hi 22:34:47 it is lazy 22:34:57 psygnisf_: then impure functions won't work 22:35:02 -!- jix has joined. 22:35:03 :\ 22:35:29 well, i was thinking that IO stuff would force evaluation in the appropriate fashion. 22:35:42 psygnisf_: you can probably come up with semantics just as good as monads, maybe even essentially the same ones, just go for it. 22:35:54 lol 22:35:58 BELIEVE IN YOURESLF 22:36:00 i dont know how to go about that, oklopol. 22:36:18 use your thinking machine. 22:36:19 brain. 22:36:20 you know. 22:36:20 psygnisf_: impure + solve problems if they occur. 22:36:22 and think. 22:36:54 you could do like oklotalk, and evaluate lazily what (probably) has no side-effects :-) 22:37:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 22:37:43 I actually have semantics that let you have a 100% lazy, 100% impure system. 22:37:48 They involve seeing. I've told oklopol about them 22:37:54 if i understoof monads i might be able to do something. but.. nobody explains monads adequately to me. 22:38:02 to see is to necessitate........ 22:38:02 It also means that pure equivalent programs can differ... 22:38:06 all i get is a bunch of "here are your axioms kthxbye" 22:38:09 psygnisf_: ITYM "I don't understand them" 22:38:14 Not our fault; your problem. 22:38:28 durr? 22:38:33 i didn't say it was your fault 22:38:39 stop being a defensive little cunt 22:38:55 uh huh. 22:39:01 "nobody explains monads adequately to me." 22:39:06 yes. 22:39:08 thats note blame 22:39:09 not* 22:39:23 its not "its your FAULT i dont get monads!" 22:39:26 i never said it was blame. 22:39:32 sure you did 22:39:37 "Not our fault" 22:39:40 fault is blame 22:39:43 it's my fault, i broke the vase 22:39:53 so. 22:40:02 i think i should do some tunstall encoding now 22:40:34 whoa you're coding nao? 22:40:36 badum TISH 22:40:38 because clearly this ircing stuff isn't working. 22:41:07 haha LOL kinda like *programming* but then well i guess it's not lol :DDDD 22:41:18 . 22:41:25 bad oklo. 22:43:24 ping ais523 22:43:57 pong 22:44:39 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:47:35 My first association to "carrier pigeons could be faster" was "unholy scramjet-equipped cyborg-pigeons, an abomination against nature" and not "normal pigeons carrying flash drives". 22:47:48 heh# 22:47:53 fizzie: your mind is awesome. 22:48:06 I'm not sure if that's the word. 22:48:33 why would scramjet-equipped cyborg-pigeons necessarily be an abomination against nature? 22:48:45 they could have evolved, you know... 22:48:46 ais523: I think asking that question makes you an abomination against nature. 22:49:06 psygnisf_: don't worry about understanding them, start by just *using* them and understanding will appear 22:49:17 olsner: he's trying to write a language. 22:49:25 that is lazy. and IO. 22:49:47 trying to write haskell? but that's already been written! 22:49:54 it uses rewriting. 22:50:21 understanding is over-rated anyways 22:50:25 fizzie: i was thinking painting pigeons black or white to encode 1/0. 22:50:43 just breed them in two colors 22:50:43 ais523: I think 'cyborg' implies 'not natural' 22:50:45 oklopol: brilliant 22:50:48 make them spotted. 22:50:57 why? 22:51:02 quantum pigeons? 22:51:08 or use three colors, and encode in balanced ternary 22:51:34 approx. half a bit extra per pidgeon! 22:51:35 well, quantum pigeons. no question about it. 22:51:52 fizzie: I'm still laughing 22:52:48 there is no room for understanding in exact sciences. 22:53:09 which hacking undoubtedly is (unlike programming) 22:56:48 kerlo's name is steve 22:57:09 ehird, you're just jumping to conclusions. 22:57:15 yep 22:57:24 I'm using a computer that used to belong to someone named Steve. 22:57:58 o 22:59:34 kerlo killed steve and stole his computer 23:00:07 No, Steve is still alive. Killing him may still have been an effective way of receiving his computer, though. 23:01:02 you're obviously in chock after killing steve, imagining him to still be alive 23:01:15 and if you deny it you're in denial! 23:01:37 ow ... head ... going ... to ... explode ... from ... comonads 23:01:42 * SimonRC eats pizza 23:02:23 That's a shame. 23:07:40 * SimonRC eats pizza That's a shame 23:07:46 a nice juxtaposition there 23:08:34 come on, ads 23:09:13 guess you could do comb-on ads 23:09:36 -!- ais523 has quit ("going home"). 23:13:42 -!- X-Scale has joined. 23:30:15 X-Scale: i always read your nick as an action 23:30:25 * oklopol checks how similar it actually is 23:30:31 mm. not very. 23:32:46 argh 23:32:53 I'm away for an hour or so 23:32:59 and way too much to read above 23:33:04 :-) 23:33:15 it's not that much. 23:33:31 o 23:33:32 o 23:33:32 o 23:33:32 o 23:33:33 o 23:33:34 o 23:33:36 o 23:33:39 if you know what song that was 23:33:42 then 23:33:43 umm 23:33:46 well, you won't know. 23:34:07 afk 23:35:21 I'll sing a song, too! 23:35:22 oooo 23:35:22 oooo 23:35:23 ee 23:35:26 ii 23:35:28 oooo 23:35:29 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaxxxxxxxxxxx 23:42:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:49:02 11:57:31 as in, he's going to the bus. 23:49:02 11:57:34 to go home. 23:49:08 actually, away from home 23:49:11 o 23:49:15 but 23:49:16 it's late 23:49:17 is it not 23:49:25 indeed 23:49:33 * oerjan is back home now 23:49:40 what does the bus do, then 23:50:00 home -> town, then later town -> home 23:50:07 okay. 23:50:14 ... town is open at this time? 23:50:15 well, approximately. there's also a small walk involved :D 23:50:31 it's a city 23:50:33 can towns be closed 23:50:34 ? 23:51:15 town ~= city center, in this usage 23:51:24 i guess "downtown" is more accurate 23:51:45 s/small/short/ 23:52:15 also, my day schedule is completely chaotic, in case anyone hadn't noticed 23:53:52 chaotic is good 23:55:47 Does complex numbers' square roots also always have two roots? (as with real ones) 23:55:58 as Slereah2 said, except for zero. 23:56:20 i fought myself so hard not to make that useless addition :P 23:56:27 heh :D 23:56:57 WHAT ABOUT -0 23:57:13 * oerjan swats Slereah2 -----### 23:57:16 also, you know, DID YOU KNOW YOU CAN GENERALIZE THAT FOR NTH ROOTS. 23:57:20 but NO. bad oklo. 23:57:30 yes i knew 23:58:02 i mean i almost said that. 23:58:11 but maybe you understood that. 23:58:36 oklopol : nth root has n results 23:58:39 basically, x^n = y^n <=> (x/y)^n = 1, which means everything non-zero has exactly has many roots as 1 has 23:58:48 *as 23:58:57 Each one being a rotation of 2pi/n in the complex plane 23:59:26 Slereah2: exactly, that's the trivial useless thing i managed not to tell firefly.