00:25:46 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:26:44 What's with the quit message "This computer has gone to sleep"? Google gives > 8000 hits, all of which is IRC logs. 00:27:36 hm 00:28:06 and not a single person? 00:28:10 no 00:29:13 so next try to find which client they are using... 00:29:53 lessee Corun uses it 00:30:12 but not here now 00:31:38 MizardX: xchat aqua 00:31:41 -!- Corun has joined. 00:31:42 (os x xchat) 00:31:48 Corun: you use os x rite? 00:31:48 !taf2! VERSION X-Chat Aqua 0.16.0 (xchat 2.6.1) Darwin 9.6.0 [i386/1.80GHz/SMP] 00:31:51 you made that app thing 00:31:58 that you linked here 00:32:03 and I liked but didn't because it required leopard 00:32:09 we're investigating your quit message 00:32:10 you see 00:32:12 oh nice timing 00:32:14 and we think it's xchat aqua 00:32:21 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 00:32:24 fuck you. 00:32:38 CTCP VERSION reply from Corun: X-Chat Aqua 0.16.0 (xchat 2.6.1) Darwin 9.5.0 [i386/2.20GHz/SMP] 00:32:46 glad to know his COMPUTER talks to us. 00:33:02 i'll try another nick i found on google 00:33:27 CTCP VERSION reply from Lachy: X-Chat Aqua 0.16.0 (xchat 2.6.1) Darwin 9.6.0 [i386/2.40GHz/SMP] 00:33:32 yep, seems so 00:34:02 * oerjan hopes lachy doesn't get paranoid from being ctcp'ed out of the blue :D 00:37:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:48:42 SLOWNESS, n. 00:48:42 hm fizzie, you are from Finland? 00:48:48 {2008-04-16} 00:49:32 you mean fizzie hasn't answered yet? how rude! 00:49:38 XD 01:14:50 -!- Judofyr has quit ("raise Hand, 'wave'"). 01:25:39 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 01:30:56 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:30:57 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 01:58:30 ehird, well did he answer then or? 01:59:42 or did someone else answer? 02:05:35 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:55:36 Hëy güys, ïs thïs ÜTF-8? 02:57:45 Nöpe, Ă€ccördĂŻng tö mĂż chĂ«ck öf thĂ« lögs ĂŻt's ISO-8859-1. ThĂŻs shĂ¶ĂŒld bĂ«, thĂ¶ĂŒgh. 02:58:19 (My client auto-translates so I cannot tell from it) 02:58:37 Mm. 03:00:04 Höw äböüt thïs? 03:02:57 * oerjan chĂ«cks Ă€gÀïn 03:03:21 Nope 03:03:33 Darn. 03:03:54 ah irssi too 03:04:05 let me paste my relevant settings 03:04:20 Okay. 03:04:48 04:04 recode_autodetect_utf8 = ON 03:04:48 04:04 recode_fallback = CP1252 03:04:48 04:04 recode = ON 03:04:48 04:04 recode_out_default_charset = utf8 03:04:48 04:04 recode_transliterate = ON 03:06:22 TĂ«stĂŻng Ă€gÀïn. 03:06:37 How did that look? 03:06:43 GrĂ«Ă€t sĂŒccĂ«ss! 03:06:49 Great. 03:06:58 Now all I have to do is make it actually display properly. 03:07:17 ?t's d?spl?y?ng l?k? th?s. 03:07:31 note my terminal is actually not set to Unicode itself 03:07:45 Except when I type it, in which case it displays as weird boxy things. 03:08:28 Tëstïng öncë ägäïn. 03:08:29 so i only see things right that fall within Latin-1 part of Unicode 03:08:39 Did it still work? 03:08:47 no 03:08:54 Darn! 03:09:17 but, does that look right to you? 03:09:30 Currently, that looks right to me and the UTF-8 stuff doesn't. 03:09:33 because that comes out as ISO 03:10:09 my client shows all of them properly 03:10:25 let me check... 03:10:39 I'm guessing this is happening: I type, PuTTY sends UTF-8 to screen, screen sends ISO to irssi, irssi sends ISO to the server. 03:11:38 scrĂ«Ă«n -d -r döës thĂŻs. 03:11:59 Which displays as fuzzy boxes in the input line and question marks in chat. 03:12:07 But it's apparently sending it correctly. 03:12:13 04:04 term_charset = iso8859-1 03:12:18 do you have that? 03:12:30 No, I have ANSI_X3.4-1968. 03:12:32 Is that horrible? 03:12:42 i don't know what that is :D 03:12:53 possibly something 7-bit 03:13:10 try changing that 03:13:32 -1968 would seem like before anything beyond ASCII was invented 03:14:16 (that's my setting. if you manage to set PuTTY to use actual unicode, you probably should use that 03:14:32 I think PuTTY is set to UTF-8 currently. 03:14:44 Let me try starting a new irssi with -U. 03:15:16 well then you should probably do term_charset = UTF-8 03:15:24 It would seem so. 03:16:17 PuTTY sending UTF-8, screen called without -U, term_charset = ANSI_X3.4-1968: blĂ€h 03:16:54 PuTTY sending UTF-8, screen called without -U, term_charset = ANSI_X3.4-1968: blĂ€h 03:17:06 Er, s/ANSI_X3.4-1968/UTF-8/ on that last one. 03:17:26 both are unicode 03:17:33 Both are UTF-8? 03:17:52 as far as my browser window of the logs implies 03:19:01 ÖkĂ€y, thĂŻs dĂŻsplĂ€ys möstlĂż rĂŻght. 03:19:09 The Ö doesn't, though. 03:19:18 huh 03:19:47 looks correct here 03:19:58 I'm guessing Ö isn't within the Latin-1 part of Unicode or something. 03:20:05 of course it is 03:20:11 Mm. 03:20:14 Ö 03:20:29 None of that is showing properly. 03:20:40 The capital letters, anyway. 03:20:49 ÖkĂ€y, thĂŻs dĂŻsplĂ€ys möstlĂż rĂŻght. 03:21:11 That looks roughly like this: #Vkay, this displays mostly right. 03:21:22 The # is one of those fuzzy boxes, the V is inverse color. 03:21:36 without any " on top of anything? 03:21:45 It has those over the lowercase letters. 03:21:50 ok then 03:21:56 bizarre 03:22:14 I know that there is something that supports only lowercase accented characters. 03:23:59 also, ANSI_X3.4-1968 is the canonical name for ASCII 03:24:07 Oh, cute. 03:25:38 do you still have those recode* settings? 03:26:06 Apparently, CP437 supports Ä, Ö and Ü but not Ë or Ï, as well as a seemingly arbitrary set of Greek letters. 03:26:15 Also, everything messes up when I type Ä. 03:26:19 heh 03:26:24 ic 03:26:32 03:26 recode_autodetect_utf8 = ON 03:26:32 03:26 recode_fallback = CP1252 03:26:32 03:26 recode = ON 03:26:32 03:26 recode_out_default_charset = UTF-8 03:26:32 03:26 recode_transliterate = ON 03:26:41 what happens when i type à in here? 03:27:18 It displays as fuzzy-box inverse-color-C. 03:27:51 it should be A with ~ on top 03:28:23 à 03:28:37 right 03:28:44 Your à is the same as my Ã; both display as box-C here. 03:29:55 -!- AnMaster has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:29:58 curious. i'll leave this to the actual experts. 03:30:54 Mmkay. 03:39:43 -!- AnMaster has joined. 03:46:28 My guess is that the [c] is a replacement character for symbols not representable in the font you are using... 03:49:05 -!- olsner has joined. 04:22:14 -!- Slereah has joined. 04:23:14 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:47:09 -!- X-Scale has left (?). 04:51:16 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:06:02 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:38:27 -!- ab5tract has joined. 05:38:48 -!- ab5tract has quit (Client Quit). 05:57:34 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 05:58:27 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 05:58:38 hey bois :D 06:07:56 gurls 06:08:29 theres no girls here :P 06:14:21 http://pastebin.ca/1323277 06:14:28 everybody read that and tell me what you think 06:16:28 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:22:58 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:29:27 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 07:36:04 bsmntbombdood: It is easy to hand read-only snapshot of file or directory tree, but how to share something read-write? 07:36:29 you don't 07:41:56 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:17:04 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 08:18:42 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has joined. 08:19:07 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has quit (Client Quit). 08:22:02 -!- Mony has joined. 08:34:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:43:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 08:50:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye"). 08:50:28 bwahahahaha 08:50:30 http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/ling.2006.37.2.271 08:51:05 Optimality Theoretic models of phonology are NP-hard, while normal rule-derivation phonologies are P. 08:51:07 bwahaha 08:51:12 fuck you optimality theory :) 08:56:42 Probably optimality theoretic models can express more phonologies than rule-derivation... 09:04:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:04:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 09:12:26 ilari, they can express different ones. 09:13:04 but there are some mindnumbingly trivial rules that OT has a bitch of a time with, but that rule-derivation handles with hardly any interesting effort at all. 09:14:08 i'd go with whichever one makes more sense 09:14:23 that'd be rule-derivation :p 09:14:26 OT is like 09:14:39 ot is a bit weird yeah 09:14:48 "ok, so you've got these constraints, right" 09:14:57 "and then you generate an INFINITE number of candidates, see" 09:15:17 "then you filter out candidates until you have one that violates the least constraints. tada!" 09:17:34 'and then you pick the one you like the most out of a bunch of equally likely candidates'? 09:17:44 i guess. 09:18:01 its not very informative, to be honest. 09:18:36 is any linguistics outside phonetics? 09:18:44 yeah? 09:18:46 this isnt phonetics 09:18:49 this is phonology, for one. :P 09:20:26 exactly!! 09:21:12 what? 09:21:41 personally i find phonetics and phonology to be boring 09:21:55 i go for syntax/semantics, personally. 09:25:30 what field of linguistics, outside phonetics, has produced anything of value? 09:25:34 (to linguistics) 09:26:02 syntax is ridiculous 09:26:09 it's a joke science 09:26:16 o 09:26:16 i dont think you know much about it sir :) 09:29:20 why do you say it's a joke science, lament 09:32:16 http://www.aiforge.net/ - website about programming games ... most interesting one I've found (only got to M in the list so far) is Fleet Commander, which happen to be mentained by the site owner 09:33:17 90% of the games is about controlling a single robot, using some low level interface... 09:35:58 wow cool 09:44:15 psygnisf_: i guess i just mean the theoretical part 09:45:18 yeah but why do you say that 09:46:00 because it hasn't done anything of value :) 09:46:18 what is "of value"? 09:46:40 i'd say it's done LOTS of value. if you care about the workings of grammar. 09:47:26 it produced a bunch of toy models of varying complexity 09:47:39 such as? 09:48:01 im skeptical about whether you actually know what syntax is actually doing 09:48:07 i mean, toy models? which ones? 09:48:12 describe why they're toy models. 09:50:45 um, they don't work? 09:50:59 sure they do 09:51:06 they don't come close to reflecting the reality 09:51:08 they work wonderfully. 09:51:21 okay. 09:51:32 nevermind then. 09:51:41 i eman, cmon, what models do you perceive as toy models? 09:51:58 just name three, and give examples of how they fail to reflect reality 09:52:48 and why that single failure justifies them being toy theories, while other theories, like say quantum mechanics, also have glaringly obvious inabilities to reflect reality that don't qualify them as toy theories. 09:53:57 quantum mechanics has awesome predictive power and important real-world applications 09:54:04 it does! 09:54:13 but so do the various theories of syntax. :) 09:54:20 oh? 09:54:21 im still waiting for your examples. 09:54:55 oh indeed. 09:55:19 but cmon, what are YOUR contentions 09:55:28 since thats really the issue here. 09:56:02 any theory which tries to treat language as a formal system (generative grammar) is laughable 09:56:08 why? 09:57:09 cuz ppl are ppl they aren't no machines............... 09:57:22 oklopol you certainly are 09:57:25 because languages are obviously not formal systems 09:57:25 beep boop 09:57:26 :O 09:58:47 lament: i'd say languages obviously ARE formal systems 09:58:57 they sure as hell look it to me 09:59:09 really, you think that? 09:59:12 interesting 09:59:31 i've seen the data. all sorts of crazy shit that you dont realize until you actually dive into it 10:00:06 ridiculous things like purely tree structural relations that govern the acceptability of the use of this kind of pronoun or that kind of expression 10:00:32 you dont realize how insanely formulaic and well defined language is until you study it 10:01:34 granted, there are all sorts of complications when you get into use of language vs. structure of the utterances, e.g. pragmatics, but even THAT has so many amazingly well defined, systematic ways of operating 10:01:57 err 10:02:09 youre european, right? 10:02:10 what's the difference between language and structure of utterances? 10:02:32 well no no, the diffrence is betwen the act of using an utterance, and the utterance itself 10:03:45 the utterances themselves, ignoring things like false starts, and other illformed things, are fairly well defined formal systems, and the way you use them is also fairly well defined. 10:04:23 they're by no means perfectly understood, but it's not as tho we're just dicking around with silly theories that dont really reflect anything in the language. 10:04:33 is human behaviour a formal system? 10:05:46 well, at some level, undoubtedly. and the more you look at experimental psychology the harder it becomes to /not/ think of human behavior as a very neat, computational system. 10:10:04 where are you from, lament? which country? 10:11:27 it's a difficult question 10:12:19 he's russocanadian 10:12:32 where do you LIVE, lament. :P 10:12:37 would be fun to study human social interaction as a formal system 10:12:40 canada 10:13:34 or well theoretical social interaction, i'm not interested in how humans do it specifically, just in general 10:13:37 also, regarding human behavior as a formal system, its basically inescapable unless you believe in a soul. if everything is material, of a sort, then all there is is what amounts to a formal system of enormous scale. even at the level of neurons its obviously necessarily formal, in a sense. 10:14:11 neurons dont know. neurons are just neurons. they're signal processors and the signals have no meaning, outside of the context of the system that they're used in, namely, the brain. 10:14:13 studying game of life as a formal system on a macroscopic level would be pretty stupid 10:14:37 even though it's fairly well defined 10:14:40 ive been interested in trying to explore a formal model of memetics 10:16:36 well, semi-formal. something that explores the ways in which the smallest memetic items combine and interact 10:16:54 but! i must be off to bed. 10:17:04 have funnn 10:18:00 lament, if you can think of an example of why you think modern syntactic theories fail, or even if you can just name one that you don't like, do mention it. it'd be more substantial and worthwhile than just a proclamation of invalidity. :) 10:18:02 night :D 10:19:22 lament belongs in the ehird category of not having to justify your opinions because they right anyway. lament is just a bit older and lazier. 10:19:28 *they're 10:19:56 i think he mentioned he's like 2 already 10:20:03 and probably not quite as wrong as ehird tends to be. :) 10:20:20 but he seems to have no clue even what modern syntax is like. 10:20:23 anyway, really, im off. 10:20:32 well, why would he. 10:20:34 yes 10:20:35 byes 10:24:03 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCException: MigoMipo out of IRC"). 11:25:48 -!- Slereah has joined. 11:39:09 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:08:42 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:28:42 -!- jix has joined. 13:37:15 -!- AnMaster has quit ("ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"). 13:48:00 ehird, well did he answer then or? 13:48:05 The previous question: slowness. 13:48:08 This: idiocy. 13:51:26 -!- impomatic has joined. 13:51:30 -!- AnMaster has joined. 13:56:11 Has befunge.org moved, or just disappeared? 13:56:45 13:56 Fizzie from #esoteric owned it. 13:56:45 13:56 It just pointed to his site, zem.fi. 13:56:46 13:56 He let the reg drop sometime this year. 13:56:48 13:56 I might register it. 13:56:50 crossposting woo 13:57:53 Sorry :-/ 13:58:03 s'ok :P 14:09:33 hm 14:09:48 I wonder if you could use setcontext/getcontext to implement co-routines in C? 14:15:12 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 14:20:32 YES. 14:20:33 *Yes. 14:20:36 They are also continuations. 14:51:35 headline: Google sneezes; Internet catches cold 14:51:59 their bad-website-spotter has started saying everything is potentially malicious 14:52:29 yep... 14:52:40 http://www.google.com/interstitial?url=http://www.google.com/ 14:52:43 click 'n lol 14:53:03 google fail 14:53:06 yes 14:53:23 ehird, wonder how soon they will correct it 14:54:20 http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/7tutu/google_is_marking_every_site_as_malicious/ 14:54:23 Capitalise time! 14:54:53 ehird: fucking hell that's quick 14:54:59 :) 14:55:28 "copyright infringement is not theft." 14:55:31 "yup, and oral sex is not really sex." 14:55:40 I like the analogy apart from the part where it makes no sense whatsoever. 14:57:00 ehird, http://digg.com/tech_news/Someone_is_about_to_get_fired_at_Google 14:57:01 ;P 14:57:16 digg? 14:57:24 further confirming your intelligence, I guess. 14:57:25 (hm, someone should digg a page on reddit that reddits the page that digg's reddit!) 14:57:31 already done. 14:57:33 it wasn't funny. 14:57:37 ehird, I hate both reddit and digg 14:57:41 and slashdot 14:57:52 So why did you link me to digg? 14:57:58 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7tuou/google_thinks_reddit_is_an_attack_site_wtf/ 14:58:00 Aw, I'm too late. 14:58:03 ehird, because I know you prefer reddit 14:58:10 Uh huh. 14:58:15 AnMaster: OS X! 14:58:21 I said that because I know you prefer gentoo. 14:58:23 ha ha ha 14:58:29 wait a sec 14:58:32 this could be fun 14:58:40 http://www.google.com/interstitial?url=foo 14:58:48 now to try HTML injection! 14:59:00 "Your client does not have permission to get URL /interstitial?url=%3Cb%3Efoo%3C/b%3E from this server. (Client IP address: 90.130.2.10)" <-- damn 14:59:08 wait 14:59:14 that makes no sense 14:59:44 hm 14:59:48 If you think Google have an html injection on one of their most prominent pages (even before this bug), you're... rather deluded 15:00:02 ehird, I was thinking it wouldn't work 15:00:05 I was just trying 15:00:15 I mean if it had worked it would have been awesome 15:00:28 and would have made it first on reddit or such I bet ;) 15:00:45 so worth trying I mean, slim chance 15:01:20 you'd have thought that the reddit posters would check the existing 9999 stories on a topic before posting a new one 15:01:26 sigh 15:01:26 SimonRC: but but but KARMA 15:01:37 also: wasn't there when I posted it. 15:01:40 I don't know how reddit works 15:01:46 AnMaster: 1) If by "awesome" you mean "boring and rather unexploitable" 15:01:52 2) I think that's more digg territory. 15:01:57 ehird, http://xinutec.org/~pippijn/files/sc/osiris-20090131160126.png 15:02:09 AnMaster: Ha ha ha, it's funny because it makes fun of microsoft! 15:02:11 Ohohohohohohoho 15:02:32 ehird, yeah I thought more sophisticated humor would be too advanced for you 15:02:33 ;P 15:02:36 bbl 15:02:44 aha 15:02:45 what's wrong is 15:02:48 stopmalware.org is down 15:02:49 and google use it 15:03:14 ITT: One of the hugest companies evar completely relying on a third party service that isn't also huge: 15:03:18 dumb 15:04:07 let's all switch to cuil 15:04:13 lolol 15:04:34 Still not fixed. 15:04:36 Jeez, how hard can it be? 15:04:44 def is_malware(site): 15:04:46 return False 15:04:51 comment out the rest 15:04:53 push to server. 15:04:57 it's harder than that, obviously 15:04:59 end-of-lack-of-profit 15:05:04 SimonRC: why should it be? :P 15:05:16 sure, that's not exactly a durable solution 15:05:23 but, umm, when your whole search is completely disabled for everyone.. 15:06:02 I wonder why it doesn't assume things are safe instead 15:06:31 because the idiots that added it presumably never thought it could ever go down. 15:06:37 slashdot have it too 15:06:49 they will be fired and will move to cuil :P 15:07:10 Google Results Considered (Potentially) Harmful 15:15:19 * SimonRC eats food 15:16:12 I do that sometimes too 15:16:16 ehird, odd side effect of this: the cached links are gone 15:16:42 This is an awful mess. 15:16:51 hurry UP google. 15:17:03 ehird, cuil is still alive? 15:17:12 AnMaster: for some definitions of "alive" 15:17:22 ehird, maybe no one noticed yet at the googleplex 15:17:25 the traffic is near nil, they're financially fucked, ... 15:17:32 AnMaster: Come on, I highly doubt that 15:17:37 ehird, same 15:17:56 Cuil 15:17:56 This site may harm your computer. 15:17:56 Search engine with results shown with images and a drill-down menu. General feature, webmaster and investor information. 15:17:56 www.cuil.com/ - Similar pages - 15:17:56 :D 15:19:12 they're back 15:19:27 nope 15:19:29 still broken for me 15:19:31 oh 15:19:32 nope 15:19:34 it's fixed 15:19:35 YAY 15:19:53 Losses: $50 million 15:20:22 partly fixed yes 15:20:28 ehird, source? 15:20:39 AnMaster: Humanity's collective butt. 15:20:44 ah 15:21:02 I wonder how on earth this happened. 15:21:07 I mean, surely they stresstest this thing. 15:21:46 ehird, oh even google agreed the Swedish gov sucks: http://omploader.org/vMTZ6Nw 15:22:13 AnMaster: does it censor the internet? 15:22:17 if so, that's amusing. if not, meh. 15:22:40 ehird, someone took a pic of searching for RIAA too btw 15:22:49 that's not even funny. 15:22:54 it says "This site may harm your computer" 15:22:57 not "This site sucks" 15:23:44 ehird, and yes Swedish gov wants to do that I believe. Swedish police makes the ISPs filter child porn at least, not sure about other stuff. 15:23:59 ehird, and there was the FRA law 15:24:36 stopmalware.org is down <-- redirects to nist now? 15:25:17 Huh. 15:25:24 ehird, or did you mean stopbadware.org ? 15:25:27 oh. 15:25:28 yes. 15:25:33 which is still down 15:25:34 that explains it 15:25:36 indeed 15:28:18 ehird, oh I had paul graham in google search before and with that "this site may cause harm..." 15:28:25 I found that quite amusing 15:28:26 heh 15:28:37 didn't take a screenshot though 15:28:40 sun.com/java 15:28:41 forgot that 15:28:46 ehird, ? 15:28:47 this site may cause harm to your computeromobile 15:28:56 computeromobile? 15:28:57 heh? 15:28:59 yes. 15:29:03 it's a computer. on wheels 15:29:05 um 15:29:14 think of the possibilities, man. 15:29:20 ehird, I fail to see how that makes sense for "java"? 15:29:26 it doesn't. 15:29:33 the omobile was an afterthought 15:29:59 *homobile 15:30:38 It's a computer. On wheels. With hos. 15:30:43 Think of the possibilities. Man. 15:37:53 -!- X-Scale has joined. 15:40:57 Hi X-Scale :-) 15:41:01 hi X-Scale 15:41:07 haven't seen you here before? 15:42:26 X-Scale: I think I've seen you in #corewars ;-) 16:06:03 Hello there, impomatic & ehird :) 16:06:12 haha...yes...NorthStar :) 16:06:26 #corewars ftw 16:13:53 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:22:24 oklopol: i'm writing an oklotalk-- compiler. again :o 16:27:01 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 16:27:53 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Client Quit). 16:33:59 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:35:43 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 16:38:56 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:58:58 err google results showed pages as harmful for a while? 16:59:57 i don't see why anyone should care even if they went down altogether 17:00:37 1) yes, and so didn't let you click to them 17:00:43 2) because google is popular/useful? 17:00:47 ah. 17:01:02 (you had to manually copypaste the URL to go somewhere) 17:01:24 or use another engine 17:01:44 the other engines aren't particularly good 17:01:51 neither is google 17:02:56 the others were good enough back when i last used them ;) maybe they suck even more nowadays, dunno. 17:03:14 i've used only google for many years now 17:03:46 but i refuse to acknowledge i'm in any way dependant on it, therefore i refuse to understand why anyone would care about its problems. 17:03:49 i think pattern matching will be oklotalk---compiling's downfall. _again_ 17:03:58 heh 17:04:06 i wonder if it's heretical to write an oklotalk-- parser that produces no errors. 17:04:16 hmm 17:04:28 (a ]) actually parses the ] as a var name atm 17:04:33 umm. what errors could the parser produce? 17:04:35 though i dunno what (a) would be 17:04:38 oh -- 17:04:38 atom (, atom a, atom ) 17:04:42 perhaps 17:05:20 (a b c d parses as (a b c) d :D 17:10:20 oklopol: what is your officially deemed parsing of (a) 17:15:15 % python parse.py 17:15:15 [('name', '('), ('name', 'a'), ('name', ')')] 17:15:16 :D 17:15:36 (a b (c) d) 17:15:37 -> 17:15:39 [('app', [('name', 'a'), ('name', 'b'), ('name', '('), ('name', 'c'), ('name', ')')]), ('name', 'd'), ('name', ')')] 17:15:44 parses as 17:15:57 (a b ( c )) d ) 17:16:02 umm parsing opinions for hypothetical extensions of oklotalk--? :) how about you make oklotalk 17:16:03 where a ( or ) surrounded by a space is the atom 17:16:15 oklopol: making oklotalk is hard when there's no reference to implement it from :-D 17:17:05 yes, maybe it is somewhat unsimple. 17:28:06 this is an excelently-done rpg parody: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wwLrgxtALWs 17:28:29 oklopol: can we have oktobot 17:28:40 SimonRC: i watched that in 2007. 17:32:46 * ehird pirates mathematica!! 17:33:38 oklopol: 17:38:18 ooo 17:38:25 oklopol: oktabot 17:38:28 plzzz :) 17:38:56 oooooooooooooooo 17:38:59 -!- oktabot has joined. 17:39:04 hello dar 17:39:21 haihai 17:39:22 :: $2 17:39:22 2 17:39:26 :: (+ $2 $2) 17:39:27 + 17:39:31 lol ok, so it's 2 the name 17:39:32 :D 17:39:35 atom, rather 17:39:59 ya 17:40:25 mathematica in 30 MINUTES :D 17:40:27 oklopol: hokie 17:40:32 writing parser, y'see. 17:40:42 :: $() 17:40:43 An error: Unmatching parens @ row 1. 17:40:45 lol :D 17:40:53 :: $( 17:40:53 ( 17:40:58 mm 17:41:09 :: $(a 17:41:09 (a 17:41:11 :: $(a) 17:41:12 An error: Unmatching parens @ row 1. 17:41:15 $) 17:41:18 :: $) 17:41:18 ) 17:41:21 lol 17:41:21 ... 17:41:23 xD 17:41:46 wellllll you see i took the i don't care what happens in boundary cases approach. 17:41:55 because, well, it was kinda a language stub. 17:43:12 huh 17:43:15 I actually parse the same as you 17:43:22 ) -> the atom ')' 17:43:29 $(a) -> the atom '(a', then the variable name ')' 17:43:36 well, you parse ) as a real close paren, I just parse it as a var name 17:43:39 since there's no ( 17:43:40 xD 17:43:50 making sense is not required, never erroring is. 17:44:16 :=) 17:44:49 wonder how (->) should parse 17:44:52 welllllllllllllllllllllll 17:45:01 it'll parse as var (, var ->, var ) 17:45:19 (-> a) will prolly return $f. 17:45:34 i mean 17:45:37 when you run it 17:46:45 hmm. 17:46:51 oklopol: "$ a" parses as "the atom ' a'" 17:46:53 feature or bug? 17:47:08 ("$" parses as "the atom ''", so I was expecting (atom '', name 'a')) 17:47:52 [('atm', ''), ('name', 'a')] 17:47:53 tha's better 17:48:13 :: $ a 17:48:13 a 17:48:23 :: (+ $ a) 17:48:23 + 17:48:40 lol :D 17:48:43 wait that didn't test anything. 17:48:46 well anyway 17:48:48 no shit :D 17:48:50 i gotta go i thinks 17:48:51 :: [$ a] 17:48:51 [ a] 17:48:57 exactly 17:48:59 oklopol: did you ever impl nopol? 17:49:03 sure 17:49:09 nopol2, to be specific 17:49:10 o rly?? 17:49:12 bot?? 17:49:14 umm yeah 17:49:23 i musta missed this 17:49:26 :DDDD 17:49:37 bot plz?? 17:49:48 nopol has an object oriented bot 8| 17:49:56 8| 17:49:58 rly? 17:49:58 wutwut 17:50:04 i thought i always use that same one :D 17:50:08 lolz 17:50:36 -!- nopolie has joined. 17:50:38 hello dar 17:50:44 hi nopolie 17:50:46 whats ur prefix 17:51:02 ^parse ::: 17:51:02 (+::: ) 17:51:06 mmkay 17:51:17 ^parse <: <...> <::>> 17:51:17 (+ (+: (+... ) (+:: ))) 17:51:21 ^eval <> 17:51:24 :<< 17:51:27 ^run <: <...> <::>> 17:51:27 global name 'rawunparse_' is not defined 17:51:30 :D 17:51:34 nice erroring 17:51:36 :DDD lol 17:51:38 oh wait 17:51:50 was that the bot that got broken and i didn't fix it 17:51:55 :D 17:52:05 i mean the nopol interp never errors iirc 17:52:50 :. 17:53:01 thassa smiley 17:53:03 look at it sideways 17:53:13 -!- nopolie has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:53:34 -!- nopolie has joined. 17:53:37 no idea what i changed, but i'm optimistic about this. 17:53:41 ^run <:> 17:53:41 list index out of range 17:53:43 xD 17:53:50 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:54:02 okay, i have unparse, unparse_ and rawunparse 17:54:11 (now what the fuck are those) 17:54:16 -!- CakeProphet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:54:16 -!- fungot has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:54:16 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:54:20 -!- nopolie has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:54:30 such peer pressue 17:54:31 pressure 17:54:33 it saw a netsplit 17:54:36 and had to go alongwith it 17:55:31 -!- nopolie has joined. 17:55:35 let's try one more random thing 17:55:37 ^run <:> 17:55:38 list index out of range 17:55:41 :| 17:55:44 well fuck you 17:55:45 sorry to ruin your hopes and ruin your dreams 17:55:46 :( 17:58:22 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:59:12 well. maybe i'll look into that some day. i don't remember what was broken about it, and i'd have to debug to find out. 17:59:21 :<< 17:59:30 ^parse :<< 17:59:30 (+: (+ (+ ))) 17:59:52 so um parse works 17:59:59 and 18:00:00 err 18:00:03 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 18:00:13 unparse works too 18:00:27 so somehow after evaluation the code has changed its structure 18:00:28 ...somehow 18:00:31 well 18:00:33 i don't care 18:00:37 i mean i do 18:00:38 but i don't 18:00:41 :<< 18:02:43 what is the language? 18:02:51 nopol2 18:03:24 I see. What sort of language is it? I guess there is no specs? 18:03:27 are* 18:05:29 it's nopular 18:05:38 it has turing complete NOPs 18:05:41 using negative-depth lists 18:05:46 (a) is depth 1, ((b)) is depth 2 18:05:49 it has depth -1, -2, etc 18:05:50 ah this sounds familiar... 18:05:54 a is depth 0, naturally 18:06:07 is this an old one? 18:06:12 basically, a negative depth list snatches all the elements around it to create a new positive list with its elements and those 18:06:15 AnMaster: yeah 18:06:20 iz weird tree rewriting stuphs..... 18:06:29 old is yes quite. 18:06:34 because this thing with nop and negative depth list sounds very familiar 18:06:42 and one I remember confused me a lot 18:06:49 yeah ehird just didn't know i'd implemented it 18:06:52 apparently 18:06:56 ah 18:07:03 oklopol's languages are just awesome 18:07:05 of course, it seems i technically haven't implemented it anymore, because it doesn't work. 18:07:13 happy australian mailman reminders day 18:07:25 * AnMaster opens mail client 18:07:33 none yet 18:07:43 i said australian 18:07:47 ah 18:08:03 unfortunately the really insane ones refuse to be realized. except graphica. but for some reason people aren't interested in languages you can only use to create graphs. 18:08:04 well I noticed lots of mailing lists sends the message one day late 18:08:13 oklopol, oklotalk? 18:08:20 oklotalk-- isn't that insane 18:08:25 hm ok 18:08:31 i implemented the sane subset with a semisane syntax 18:08:59 Al/_:¹ 18:09:12 I wonder what A-hat and .. do 18:09:16 of course the way you can do imperative kinda control flow using pattern matching, and how things are functions and objects are kinda weird features. 18:09:18 ehird, A hat? 18:09:18 (Cise prime) 18:09:20 but, they aren't insane 18:09:21 -!- fizzie has joined. 18:09:22 AnMaster: A with ^ on top. 18:09:25 hm 18:09:26 right 18:09:28  18:09:35 ehird, that is A with 2 dots here.. 18:09:46 small font 18:09:50 AnMaster: no, your font just sucks 18:09:53 ehird: encoding issue 18:09:57 Deewiant, indeed that is the issue 18:09:57 should be just umlaut. 18:10:08 ah 18:10:08  has a caret 18:10:12 Ä has an umlaut 18:10:16 or diaeresis 18:10:22 is what it's actually called IIRC 18:10:23 the correct program is Al/_Ä 18:10:25 Al/_: 18:10:30 so what does Ä do, oklopol 18:10:32 oh wait 18:10:33 just the š 18:10:35 not the A? 18:10:37 ehird, and that is nopol? 18:10:38 Al/_š 18:10:42 AnMaster: no, that's Cise 18:10:44 ehird: i think it's [0..n] 18:10:47 which is oklopol's golfing lang 18:10:52 ehird, oh I see 18:10:56 AnMaster: brainfuck without IO in cise: 18:10:57 ;I,;mc,[]{"[]"},=}!!b->"+"+mC1"-"-mC1">"+C1"<"-C1{;X}Wh=mC0=}X??b 18:11:07 or was it [1..n] or [0..n] based on whichever made more sense in context... 18:11:08 ehird, more golfed than golfscript? 18:11:11 yes. 18:11:14 cool 18:11:16 mergesort '/,)#< 18:11:18 quicksort /2;A b:C,',JnB 18:11:27 ehird, they should add on anarchy golf 18:11:32 if it isn't there already 18:11:32 yeah sure 18:11:34 no interp. 18:11:38 add it without an interp or a spec 18:11:38 oh 18:11:42 AnMaster: it actually tries all possible parsings (it's very ambiguous) and picks the one that uses types most "correctly" 18:11:52 nice 18:11:59 does it have a spec or anything? 18:12:05 there's a parser though, i just haven't implemented the less interesting parts 18:12:06 ehird, so this is one instruction per char with jumps or such? 18:12:46 Deewiant: there's a small spec-kinda thing on my computer, but it's not public. but i'm planning to add specs to all the languages on /oklopol/ as soon as possible. 18:12:54 i mean 18:12:56 roger roger 18:13:05 at lest the parts that exist in my head. 18:13:08 *least 18:13:12 AnMaster: way more complex. 18:13:16 it's funcitonal, sorta. 18:13:17 *functional 18:13:27 interesting 18:13:35 yeah functional, and ...pattern matchingal 18:13:50 oklopol, well I like that 18:14:00 pattern matching functional languages are fun to code in 18:14:01 and easy 18:14:08 usually at least 18:14:10 hm 18:14:17 pattern matching is a crucial part of making it terse, you do stuff to input, cut it in parts with pattern matching syntax, and introduce assertions to guide the syntax-error backtracking, repeat 18:14:18 but with that terse syntax, no idea 18:14:34 oklopol, oh nice backtracking too 18:14:36 :D 18:14:39 TC I assume? 18:14:48 well there's that bf interp. 18:14:53 ah yes 18:14:54 forgot that 18:15:13 ehird: did Ursala inspire that much? 18:15:19 SimonRC: I don't think so. 18:15:35 AnMaster: the pattern matching is not easy. it's a mindfuck; but, let's hope you can read it in /cise.txt after a while. 18:15:51 oklopol, /cise.txt where? 18:16:23 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/cise.txt 18:16:30 what is the topic all about? 18:17:03 (= a) 18:17:04 -> 18:17:05 [('name', '('), ('name', '='), ('name', 'a'), ('name', ')'), ('name', ')')] 18:17:08 SimonRC: Stuff that happens there. 18:18:08 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 18:18:19 to be doing the happening 18:18:38 ugh a bug. 18:19:33 oklopol, um that link doesn't really explains how it works 18:19:53 [('assign', ('name', 'a'), ('lst', [('int', 1), ('int', 2), ('app', [('name', '+'), ('int', 2), ('int', 2)])])), ('name', ']'), ('name', ')')] 18:19:54 fail 18:20:01 for example how does merge sort work '/,)#< 18:20:15 oklopol, can you describe how it is parsed and executed 18:20:45 AnMaster: i can and i have, on this channel 18:20:53 oklopol, where/when? 18:21:01 * AnMaster looks in scrollback 18:21:20 oklopol, not recently? 18:21:34 AnMaster: don't remember; anyway seriously, i will try to spec up the languages enough to quench ppl's curiosity, once i have the time 18:21:44 oklopol, right :) 18:21:44 currently all my non-irc time is pretty much university time. 18:21:51 yay it works 18:22:04 AnMaster: nope not recently. 18:22:06 (= a [1 2 (+ 2 2 18:22:08 parses as 18:22:09 around the time it was invented 18:22:11 (= a [1 2 (+ 2 2)]) 18:22:13 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 18:22:17 oklopol, and that was? 18:22:27 2008? 18:23:16 :: "\n" 18:23:24 where da oktabot @ 18:24:48 omg omg omg 2 minutes tom athematica 18:24:49 :DDDD 18:25:34 Who is Tom Athematica, ehird? 18:25:45 i wish i knew. 18:27:59 OMG 18:28:03 MATHEMATICA IS FREAKING MIIIIIINE 18:28:04 ^___________^ 18:28:20 LET's try this |: 18:29:10 Image^2 18:29:19 Yay 18:29:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:32:06 OMG INSTALLING MATHEMATICA GUYZ 18:32:11 bye bye 1.3GB 18:32:37 ehird: look at the positive side, you cannot lose your sanity - again 18:34:59 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:48:03 also, if google's harmful site detection breaks, it should say so rather than choosing either true or false as default 18:48:44 MAYBE THEY CAN'T A CODE LOL :DDD 18:59:49 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:02:22 oerjan, IWC was interesting today 19:02:27 I wonder how/if that will develop 19:02:46 whew! i actually managed to read IWC before AnMaster commented on it :D 19:03:02 oerjan, I read it around 15:00 or so every day 19:03:06 why don't you? 19:03:57 i would, if that was about the time i logged on. but today it isn't. 19:06:12 usually i go email -> log on irc -> irc logs -> IWC, and the last days you managed to get me before i finish the logs 19:06:21 haha 19:07:14 oerjan, just read IWC before irc? 19:07:17 solves the issue neatly 19:07:42 um but irc is a continuous matter 19:07:49 also darth and droids and square root of minus garfield of course (on those days) 19:08:00 what? 19:08:41 oh well i guess it could work 19:08:49 -!- alex89ru has joined. 19:09:11 * oerjan read that domain as gesundheit.de 19:25:24 ehird, there? 19:26:42 http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/this-site-may-harm-your-computer-on.html 19:26:47 if you haven't seen it already 19:28:11 also it seems that stopbadware went down due to lots of people trying to access it after the issue 19:28:19 so 19:28:53 also, if google's harmful site detection breaks, it should say so rather than choosing either true or false as default <-- irrelevant since that wasn't the issue. The issue was according to google human error adding '/' as a bad url which for some reason matched all urls 19:29:41 ooooooooooooooooooooo 19:29:43 http://blog.stopbadware.org/2009/01/31/google-glitch-causes-confusion (if that loads for you, seem to be very slow atm) 19:30:00 lllllllllllllllllllll 19:30:15 (as in several minutes load time) 19:30:42 bacj 19:30:43 back 19:31:09 "[Update 1:36] Google updated its statement to reflect that StopBadware does not provide Google’s badware data." 19:31:10 also 19:32:07 MATHEMATICA TIME 19:32:15 mathe mathe maaaa 19:32:27 pirated software is so... yummu 19:32:28 yummy 19:33:07 public logs 19:35:35 umm, so? 19:35:59 you could be arrested 19:36:03 maybe even killed 19:36:04 haha 19:36:10 (or worse) 19:36:31 za! 19:36:35 * ehird runs keygen ^.^ 19:36:36 ehird 19:36:41 uh oh 19:36:47 u want your opinion 19:36:52 what 19:36:57 i* 19:37:08 lalala 19:37:11 parallels desktop 19:37:13 keygen.exe 19:37:19 You will not be able to start virtual machines until you activate Parallels Desktop. If you have a valid activation key, click Activate Product. You can find the activation key in the product box from a retail store or in the e-mail confirming your online purchase. Otherwise, purchase a permanent activation key or obtain a free trial activation key. 19:37:21 fuck yooooooouuuuuu 19:37:30 * ehird gets another free trial lol 19:37:58 ehird, what about free ones 19:38:03 AnMaster: what 19:38:21 I mean wouldn't qemu work just fine for something as simple as running a keygen? 19:38:31 if it exists for OS X 19:38:34 yeah but i'm used to parallels and I have windows already installed on it 19:38:36 which iirc it does? 19:38:36 qeqeqeqeqeqe 19:38:38 * ehird boots up 19:38:38 what do you think i should include as a primitive operation in my language? i've got +-*/ and a generic substitute operation 19:38:41 ehird, ok good point 19:38:59 and parallels is kind of like winzip 19:39:03 you can sign up for new free trial keys 19:39:03 plus predefined but not primitive logic operations 19:39:04 forever 19:39:06 psygnisf_: have you considered (a xor b - 7) 19:39:15 why no, i haven't! 19:39:17 psygnisf_, only one: substract and branch if not zero 19:39:33 golfing might be interesting for languages with complicated and somewhat random primitives. 19:39:49 that would make sense, anmaster, if there was an actual sequence of instructions to be followed. 19:39:53 but there isnt. :P 19:39:53 oklopol, abbreviated intercal? 19:40:02 WOULD YOU LIKE TO INSTALL PARLLELS INTERNET SECURITY POWERED BY KASPERSKY AND GET A FREE ANUAL SUBSCRIPTION? 19:40:04 no, go away. 19:40:06 psygnisf_, well what I described was OISC basically 19:40:13 i know :P 19:40:15 AnMaster: i'm thinking more randomize_instruction_set()->golf(). 19:40:21 wait 19:40:26 *" -> " rather 19:40:33 Unable to connect Floppy Disk 1. 19:40:34 A file or device required for the operation of Floppy Disk 1 does not exist or is used by another process, or you have no permission to access it. The virtual machine will continue running, but the device will be disconnected. 19:40:37 how will I do without a floppy!!11 19:40:54 ehird, why would anyone need a floppy these days!? 19:41:01 this is a VM floppy. 19:41:03 well 19:41:05 even so 19:41:05 and, for running old stuff 19:41:05 duh 19:41:08 oh 19:41:09 right 19:41:24 * ehird keygen.exe -->drag into parallels--> 19:41:25 well, I thought *mac* users wouldn't need any floppy! 19:41:26 ;P 19:41:37 woop, it's just like all keygens 19:41:44 it draws its own gray-on-black window 19:41:49 ehird, you mean, built in spyware too? 19:41:50 and has a demo with weird music and gfx in the top 19:41:56 AnMaster: naw, hardly any keygens have tht 19:41:57 *that 19:42:04 it's very ... demoscene 19:42:10 well that is common too 19:42:36 ehird, I have a theory about that though... 19:42:42 also alternatively, what should i be considering for things like IO, since the language is lazy 19:42:45 WOO 19:42:46 IT WORKED 19:42:49 It use the user reaction as random seed. 19:42:54 that is, if a webcam exists 19:42:55 psygnisf_: monads. 19:42:58 AnMaster: ha, that would be fun 19:42:58 i dont want to construct the whole monad thing :| 19:43:05 psygnisf_: it's two functions 19:43:16 monads a) confuse me, b) confuse me, c) confuse me. 19:43:30 1. understand them 19:43:31 2. profit. 19:43:39 ehird, well that is the only plausible explanation of demos in keygens 19:43:40 -!- ski__ has quit (SendQ exceeded). 19:43:49 AnMaster: why? 19:43:51 it's all about scene cred 19:43:53 ehird, hey you need at least three steps 19:43:57 the cooler your keygen demo, the cooler your group. 19:43:59 and one should be ??? 19:44:07 no, ??? is in fact "make internet meme"[1] 19:44:09 [1] gaucho theory 19:44:25 ehird, well I thought that was what you were trying to do 19:44:26 and haskell nomads is already a /prog/ meme. 19:44:30 so you can skip that step. 19:44:35 psygnisf_: You could evaluate those functions that call non-lazy (=I/O) functions immediately. 19:44:39 ah 19:44:40 ok 19:44:44 I was thinking that I could just have a universal variable that was defined at the beginning of each program execution called IO, and when you did like (read IO) it would evaluate to some new item that represented the next io state 19:44:44 MizardX: or just evaluate the IO bits strictly 19:44:46 my WIP lang has that 19:44:51 it's rather complicated and non-intuitive 19:44:55 ehird, /prog/? Does that actually exist on 4chan or whatever? 19:45:01 AnMaster: it's a text board on 4chan 19:45:05 i.e. no images 19:45:21 mhm 19:45:28 In[1]:= 2 + 2 19:45:29 Out[1]= 4 19:45:32 ehird, is it as silly as the rest of it? 19:45:32 yay. 19:45:33 MizardX: yes, thats what i intend to do, the problem is more whether or not i want to consider side effects with IO given the laziness. 19:45:48 AnMaster: rather. 19:45:59 rather >what> 19:46:00 err 19:46:04 s/>/ (hey that almost looks like a smiley) 19:46:16 rather silly. 19:46:19 ah 19:46:45 but, you know, they're [b][i][u][spoiler]EXPERT [spoiler]BB[sup]Code[/sup][/spoiler] PROGRAMMERS[/spoiler][/u][/i][/b] so it all balances out. 19:47:09 ehird, I'm not very familiar with this markup language you use 19:47:17 It's BBCode 19:47:20 ehird, any other things you think i should consider? 19:47:25 oh that forum thing 19:47:39 what does "[spoiler]" do? 19:47:47 Makes it black on black text until you hover over 19:47:49 and it becomes white on black 19:47:55 I compiled it just for you: 19:47:55 http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1233430884/1-40 19:47:58 oh I just had an idea, a forum software using LaTeX for markup 19:48:00 Needs CSS2.0(TM) 19:48:22 Easier with markdown 19:48:29 "Specified thread ID does not exist"? 19:48:39 AnMaster: that's the error it gave me when I didn't enter a subject. 19:48:42 shiichan is... rather buggy. 19:48:42 ah 19:48:50 shiichan's bbcode even has comments. 19:48:54 [rem]can't touch this[/rem] 19:49:00 DID SOMEONE SAY SHII? (*°__°) 19:49:04 ehird, um dis.*? 19:49:07 AnMaster: discussion 19:49:09 ah 19:49:16 Slereah2: Quite. Btw, why is Mathematica's input method weird? 19:49:20 When the cursor goes horizontal. 19:49:26 Because it is shit 19:49:33 Apart from that 19:49:48 In[11]:= 1/0 19:49:48 During evaluation of In[11]:= Power::infy: Infinite expression 1/0 encountered. >> 19:49:49 Also beware : when you change something, you have to re-confirm EVERY LINE 19:49:49 Out[11]= ComplexInfinity 19:49:53 the 1/0 actually displays as 19:49:54 If it's far back 19:49:54 1 19:49:55 1 19:49:57 -0 19:49:59 err 19:50:01 1 19:50:03 - 19:50:05 0 19:50:07 :D 19:50:38 Slereah2: how come you have to press enter to complete 19:50:39 not return 19:50:40 :< 19:51:37 AGH 19:51:40 I defined x and now it's persisting 19:51:49 I've done some Mathematica too and really hated it. They should have used scheme instead. 19:51:57 Quite. 19:52:03 I just wanna play with it for its graphical manipulation and stuff. 19:52:05 Slereah2: how come you have to press enter to complete not return <-- ??? 19:52:07 The actual languagei s perverse. 19:52:11 AnMaster: Well, shift-enter also words. 19:52:13 but enter = numpad return 19:52:15 on macs 19:52:26 um didn't you have a laptop? 19:52:44 also as far as I know they are the same key? Both generate same scancode I think 19:52:53 actually scratch that 19:53:18 AnMaster: Since when do I use a laptop? 19:53:28 Also, yes, I believe so, but not in the GUI env. 19:53:32 ehird, I thought you had a macbook of some type? 19:53:34 They're distinguished quite often. 19:53:36 AnMaster: no, iMac 19:53:39 ah right 19:53:43 which is a stupid name btw. 19:53:47 i cringe whenever I type it. 19:53:48 hm xev claims both generate the event KP_Enter 19:54:00 wait no 19:54:02 I misread 19:54:08 gah 19:54:14 hm indeed Return and KP_Enter 19:54:16 interesting 19:54:33 ehird, iAgree with you about the problem with the name iMac 19:54:46 you think PHP's "just shit everything into the main namespace" is bad? 19:54:48 mathematica has 19:54:51 almost 3,000 19:54:53 built in functions 19:55:04 3 0 0 0 19:55:07 but php has namespaces now with \ iirc 19:57:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("Bussy"). 19:57:08 "Bussy" 19:57:09 ? 19:57:13 Does complex numbers' square roots also always have two roots? (as with real ones) 19:57:28 AnMaster: bus -sy 19:57:30 Yes. 19:57:31 as in, he's going to the bus. 19:57:34 to go home. 19:57:34 aha 19:57:35 I assume. 19:57:39 makes sense 19:57:42 There are two square roots for all numbers, FireFly 19:57:51 I have to admit... Mathematica is quite fun, even if it sucks. 19:57:54 Yeah, just wondering if it applies to complex ones too 19:57:57 Because they are 180° rotations in the complex plane 19:58:00 I mean, the glob of functions is just... fun. 19:58:10 ehird, better or worse than php? 19:58:14 ehird: it sucks? 19:58:21 Hm.. 19:58:21 AnMaster: Well, PHP isn't even fun. 19:58:34 also what do you mean "glob of functions"? as in sq*() -> sqrt()? 19:58:34 AnMaster: But like I said, Mathematica has *3,000* mainspace builtins. 19:58:39 (R * e^if)^1/2 = sqrt(R) * e(if/2) 19:58:43 glob = a gloopy heap 19:58:56 gloopy: slimy, etc 19:59:00 ehird, glob == wild card expanding, see jargon dictionary 19:59:03 I know. 19:59:06 but ok it means what you said too 20:02:47 ArrayPlot[CellularAutomaton[30, {{1}, 0}, 50]] works. 20:02:48 Neat. 20:04:00 I'm not fond of the language, but the environment is neat. 20:04:21 Of course, no way in hell I'd pay Wolfram thousands of pounds for it... 20:05:14 yes, the whole package is powerful. 20:06:40 -!- yoR has joined. 20:06:57 ColorNegate[ 20:06:57 ArrayPlot[CellularAutomaton[30, {{1, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1}, 0}, 50]]] 20:07:00 hee, that works. 20:08:58 ehird: try Maxima 20:09:15 It uses Tk. 20:09:18 Consider me unimpressed. :P 20:09:29 What language does it use? 20:09:32 Looks like a C-esque. 20:11:45 I'm not sure. I know it's coded on Common Lisp. 20:13:59 lalala 20:14:41 that looks like it could be logo maybe. im fairly certain logo has wonky []-for-() stuff 20:14:43 same with tcl 20:14:59 no. 20:15:02 that's Mathematica. 20:15:06 I was talking about maxima. 20:15:07 oh is it? 20:15:16 btw, logo has [] as lambda 20:15:16 ah ok. 20:15:22 tcl has [] as "evaluate this" 20:15:23 hm. 20:15:23 that is 20:15:27 + 2 [+ 3 3] 20:15:29 or 20:15:31 "hello [expr]!" 20:16:02 hrrm, usenet is slow today 20:16:16 or could be my ipv6 tunnel that is slow 20:16:40 Mathematica 6 is "only" 200 eur for students, and when you graduate you must upgrade it to the full version, but with a 75 % discount. (I think the student license used to be something significantly <200 back when it was 5.something.) 20:19:01 #+2&/@{1,2,3} 20:19:02 J or K? 20:19:04 Nope. Mathematica. 20:19:20 fizzie: I'm not sure they'd count me as a "student" 20:19:23 also, that parses as 20:19:29 ((# + 2) &) /@ {1,2,3} 20:19:36 where & postfix is the "make a function yo" operator 20:19:40 # is the first arg in a function 20:19:41 and /@ is map 20:20:39 (# + ## &)[2, 3] -> 7 20:21:06 Didn't it do #1, #2, ... too? 20:21:32 yep 20:21:45 interesting syntax 20:21:50 quite esoteric 20:22:02 fizzie: it also has ##2 20:22:06 which I assume is the third argument. 20:22:24 aha, wait 20:22:29 (##1&)[1,2] 20:22:30 -> 20:22:32 Sequence[1,2] 20:22:33 odd. 20:23:00 MATLAB has anonymous functions defined like @(a, b) a+b 20:23:13 that's like so less fun though. 20:23:21 a postfix operator that you give an expression is so much more... lulzy 20:24:07 also, Function[x] == (x&) 20:24:13 You can do the more "conventional": 20:24:17 Function[x, x+2] 20:24:18 And also 20:24:23 Function[{x,y}, x+y] 20:24:32 But #+##& is so much more fun, no? 20:26:13 Mathematica syntax is ideal for all those brainf*ck lovers. :) 20:26:31 Quite. 20:26:34 I remember hammer it for hours till it worked. 20:26:35 Hmm, I wonder how it does scoping. 20:28:06 Lexical or dynamic, depending on whether you use Module[vars, body] or Block[vars, body]. 20:28:09 Y[f] := Function[x, f[x[x][#] &]][Function[x, f[x[x][#] &]]] 20:28:22 Excersize for the reader: remove the [f] and the Function parts, and make it all #s and &s. 20:30:18 Excersize? 20:30:25 Uh, I can't spell 20:30:26 hah 20:30:26 :p 20:30:33 mathematica needs a "give me something to do" button. 20:30:36 ehird, the typo was funny 20:30:47 Meh, MATLAB syntax is so crummy. I can't make it call an anonymous function without sticking it in a variable; the only form of function call is "name(args)", which must have a name in there. 20:31:05 ehird, I can provide that: Solve one of unsolved the millennium problems 20:31:51 :< 20:31:52 ehird: Y[f] := (f[#[#][#2] &]&)(f[#[#][#2] &]&) ? 20:32:12 Deewiant: hmm, so #2 works if it's the first argument? 20:32:15 i mean, it 'remembers'? 20:32:18 and stacks them? 20:32:27 hmm, right 20:32:32 not sure actually 20:32:38 i mean that's be awesome if so. 20:32:41 probably not 20:32:46 I kinda misread what you were doing 20:33:00 ehird: but anyhoo, you also need the LHS to say f_ and not f 20:33:07 In[109]:= Sin[1000] 20:33:07 Out[109]= Sin[1000] 20:33:11 umm, thanks Mathematica 20:33:20 ehird: most precise answer it can give. 20:33:25 :-D 20:33:48 Sin[]? 20:33:52 Well, you can just N[] it. 20:33:52 weird notation 20:34:00 AnMaster: [] is function call 20:34:07 ehird, yes I find that weird 20:34:13 it is weird. 20:34:19 normally in math notation you just write sin 1000 20:34:25 it's not "weird" 20:34:29 it's unusual 20:34:32 tru. 20:34:35 but it is not, by any meaning of the word, weird 20:34:38 AnMaster: That kind of fails when you nest anything 20:34:48 it turns into lisp 20:34:51 ehird, then you use () 20:34:52 ehird: works well enough in Haskell :-P 20:34:54 as in 20:35:00 sin(1000 * 2000) 20:35:02 Deewiant: sure, but haskell doesn't have the massively-nested exprs mathematica does. 20:35:21 ehird: sure it would if we didn't have . and $ :-P 20:35:26 that reminds me, check out the channels #1,000 and #2,000 20:35:28 tru tru 20:35:38 AnMaster: umm, welcome to jackassville 20:35:41 population++ 20:35:47 wtf made you think that was a good idea 20:35:53 ehird, I would never think anyone here would fall for it 20:35:55 --- 20:35:56 -_-* 20:36:07 i'm pretty sure not everyone here is an irc whiz 20:36:27 well no one parted yet? 20:36:49 proves I'm right 20:36:57 what'd be special about those? 20:36:58 and if someone does it now 20:37:04 no, proves that nobody online is 20:37:12 Deewiant, join 0 == part all channels 20:37:13 1. non-apathetic enough to try 20:37:17 2. not an irc whiz 20:37:18 AnMaster: aha 20:37:20 and join #1,#s 20:37:21 so 20:37:30 it turns into join #1 followed by join 0 20:37:37 I always forget the syntax for joining multiple channels :-P 20:38:00 Deewiant, a comma in between 20:38:07 no shit 20:40:06 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 20:41:47 "Based on original algorithms developed at Wolfram Research" 20:41:53 I swear if I read this one more time I will kill somebody. 20:42:48 Did you know that Wolfram Research proved that the 2,3 machine is TC? 20:43:15 lulz 20:43:54 (newbies: Wolfram Research ran a prize to prove that, #esoteric denizen ais523 did so.) 20:44:49 Slereah2, they claim that? 20:44:56 no 20:45:00 he was making a "joke" 20:45:08 an odd thing; it's a lie where people know it's a lie 20:45:12 but it's a lie in a way that it's funny. 20:45:35 It's funny because it's untrue 20:45:39 (I figure if I explain humour enough times you're bound to catch on eventually) 20:45:57 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 20:46:04 It's like love. 20:46:30 funny because untrue? 20:52:45 ListAnimate[ 20:52:45 ArrayPlot @/ CellularAutomaton[GameOfLife, InitialGrid, 100]] 20:52:47 Let's try this then. 20:52:54 Fail :( 20:52:57 It's /@. 20:53:03 argh 20:53:08 Now it works!! 20:53:09 Woo!! 20:53:23 I said that it's /@ before you noticed but I forgot to IRC-escape the / 20:53:28 :DD 20:53:30 Hrm.... 20:53:34 Now how do I make this infinite... 20:53:37 As opposed to just 100 steps. 20:53:41 Well, I guess I'll try passing Infinity. 20:53:46 As I am blissfully naive 20:53:48 You might run out of memory 20:53:53 o_O 20:53:54 Why? 20:53:58 It only needs the previous state... 20:54:02 I think it precomputes the whole thing 20:54:08 ,,lol 20:54:11 Something similar did, anyway 20:54:14 Feel free to try 20:54:21 Well hrm. 20:54:28 I just need a sort of... transitionanimate. 20:54:33 i.e., result becomes input 20:55:10 Try that, it might work 20:55:17 Or just raise it to 10000 first or something 20:55:20 The Infinity thing? 20:55:21 It phailed. 20:55:30 meh 20:55:41 10,000 is just eating my memory up nicely. 20:55:49 Thought so 20:55:57 You crashed mathematica I think :< 20:56:07 I didn't do anything, you did :-P 20:56:21 You told me to :P 20:56:41 It was more a suggestion than an order :-P 20:57:00 u suk 20:57:23 Duuuuuuuude 20:57:26 You crashed the ENGINE 20:57:26 ! 20:57:27 :| 20:57:33 s/ENGINE/KERNEL/ 20:57:37 whatev 20:57:37 Just quit it 20:57:47 Or kill it if that doesn't work 20:57:47 Yeah but now I lost my initial grid 20:57:48 :P 20:57:55 And my game of life spec 20:57:58 You don't have to kill the UI 20:58:03 Phool 20:58:03 no 20:58:04 it lost my vars 20:58:11 when I quit the engine 20:58:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:58:24 hi ais523 20:58:26 It should still have whatever you typed in before 20:58:31 Unless you deleted it, of course :-P 20:58:32 Deewiant: notebook crashed 20:58:43 ais523: I'm trying out mathematica. 20:59:17 ehird: finally got your trial copy? 20:59:19 anyway, I'm very busy in RL 20:59:28 I've been very ill since Wednesday afternoon 20:59:32 For values of trial copy equal to pirate. 20:59:34 And oh dear. 20:59:41 and haven't been able to do anything really, RL work or anything else 20:59:43 What values of "very ill" are we talking? 21:03:00 I'll take that as "high ones". 21:03:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:03:33 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:03:42 Or perhaps "IRC problems". 21:06:48 ais523: hi 21:11:02 -!- alex89ru has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:11:53 -!- ais523__ has joined. 21:12:04 -!- ais523__ has changed nick to ais523_. 21:12:14 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:12:16 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 21:25:06 i like being sick, but i never am 21:25:09 well, i also hate being sick 21:25:17 depends who you ask. 21:25:53 hi ais 21:25:55 ais523: 21:28:33 oklopol: I'm sure they have some sort of pills to make you sick by now. Shouldn't be all that difficult. 21:30:08 -!- ais523_ has joined. 21:30:16 hi ais523_ 21:31:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Connection timed out). 21:32:09 As you may have guessed, the wireless internet here is being really 21:32:10 temperamental at the moment; I'm only getting a few seconds of 21:32:10 connectivity every few tens of minutes. So I'm writing this in an email, 21:32:12 and I'll set my mail client to send it to you the next moment I get a 21:32:15 connection. 21:32:18 ais523's connection is fucked up so he has to use batch mode communication. 21:33:50 -!- ais523_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:33:56 -!- ais523__ has joined. 21:35:18 ais523__: are you reading this? 21:35:23 I sent off a batch email summary. 21:35:28 ehird: yes, I'm reading that 21:35:31 not sure if you'll get my reply 21:35:35 I see it. 21:35:40 but this connection's been stable for over a minute, possibly a record 21:35:44 -!- ais523__ has changed nick to ais532. 21:35:46 -!- ais532 has changed nick to ais523. 21:36:06 lifting the laptop a metre off the floor seems to help 21:36:10 ... 21:36:12 wat 21:36:29 and got your batch summary 21:37:26 Maybe you should switch to carrier pigeons, they sound more reliable. 21:39:10 -!- X-Scale has left (?). 21:43:14 I've always wanted to build a http://ronja.twibright.com/ (there's just something attractive about the idea) but I don't know anyone who'd live line-of-sight-nearby enough. 21:43:39 ais523: Your connection still ticking? 21:45:20 hello ais523 21:45:21 I will take that as a "no". 21:45:24 AnMaster: His connection is b0rked. 21:45:37 He's also been ill since wednesday. 21:45:39 Try email if you need to tell him anything. 21:45:44 oh 21:46:05 ehird, no was just going to chat aimlessly 21:46:05 ;P 21:46:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:46:25 doo doo 21:50:24 doo doo dee doo 21:50:34 ehird, since you think monads are so trivial, you explain them to me 21:50:38 sure 21:50:45 a is a type taking one argument 21:50:47 return :: a -> m a 21:50:52 -> is a function 21:50:58 bind :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b 21:51:01 tada 21:51:03 i know -> for type notations :P 21:51:04 gonads. 21:52:57 and strife. 21:53:14 also 21:53:21 there's additional constraints: 21:53:30 bind (return a) f 21:53:34 must = 21:53:34 f a 21:53:41 bind m return 21:53:42 must = 21:53:42 m 21:53:51 bind (bind m f) g 21:53:53 must = 21:54:01 bind m (\x -> bind (f x) g) 21:54:04 tada. 21:54:46 yeah psygnisf_ behold the axioms of monads 21:54:54 and see. 21:54:57 naw. 21:55:00 the type sigs are the axioms. 21:55:00 wait what? bind m return == m? 21:55:05 the constraints are the laws. 21:55:08 psygnisf_: yes. 21:55:20 so return for monads is the id function 21:55:25 i don't see a difference 21:55:26 not really 21:55:31 psygnisf_: 21:55:32 or a similarity. 21:55:35 return :: a -> m a 21:55:41 bind :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b 21:55:43 so 21:55:45 if we do 21:55:47 bind m return 21:55:51 return gets the unwrapped value of m 21:55:54 and wraps it again 21:55:59 thus, (bind m return) must = m 21:58:28 * SimonRC finds it clearer with let x >>= f = bind f x 21:58:34 no 21:58:37 bind x f 21:58:39 in mine 21:58:42 oops 21:58:46 I was just avoiding the symbolzz 21:58:46 :P 21:59:01 Symbolzz 21:59:06 They have more shizzle 21:59:28 Oddly, IO have just been learning about comonads. They are some of the things that look like you could make into a monad but turn out not to work really. 21:59:33 s/IO/I/ X-D 21:59:34 s/IO/I/ 21:59:37 snap 21:59:46 heh 22:00:05 -!- ais523_ has joined. 22:00:17 hi ais523_ 22:00:20 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:00:21 yay, it actually stayed connected long enough for me to join the channel 22:00:25 and even see ehird say hi! 22:00:31 woop woop! 22:00:38 comonads are like bizarro-monads 22:01:13 instead of having (a -> m a) and (m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b) as operations... 22:01:15 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 22:01:24 ais523_: still thar? 22:01:35 yes 22:01:36 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 22:01:37 I think 22:01:40 yay 22:01:42 they have (w a -> a) and ... erm... 22:01:45 ugh 22:01:51 fizzie: I agree, carrier pigeons would be more reliable, if slower on average 22:02:04 ... w a -> (w a -> b) -> w b 22:02:04 SimonRC: looks a bit like a backwards monad 22:02:15 ehird if you said something after i mentioned binding m being id, i didnt get it 22:02:15 :( 22:02:20 ais523_: hence me saying they are bizarro-monads 22:02:22 ais523_ : Well, carrier pigeons could be faster 22:02:29 psygnisf_: read the logs 22:02:32 I explain it 22:02:43 Like if a carrier pigeon carried an 8GB flash drive 22:02:51 where for monads you can't easily "get things out of" them, for comands you can't easily "get things into" them 22:03:28 there is no general function for (Comonad w) => a -> w a 22:03:36 What kinds of things are comonads 22:03:47 That is to say, do you have examples of them 22:03:47 analogous to there being no general function for (Monad m) => m a -> a 22:04:29 Deewiant: try here http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2004/hsce/index.html 22:05:03 "Yes, I am aware that this is an unlikely scenario." 22:05:28 I am beginning to see how Data.InfiniteTree qualifies 22:06:12 Okay, now is there a use case for these :-P 22:06:59 maybe the idea is if you find yourself writing repetative code a lot, you might be able to spot that you need a comonad 22:07:24 I'm having trouble thinking of use cases for those types 22:10:13 I am asking about this on #haskell 22:12:02 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 22:14:23 ehird 22:14:28 the problame i guess is that like 22:15:38 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:16:01 i _get_ bind 22:16:08 and i _get_ return 22:16:53 psygnisf_: but... 22:17:28 what i _dont_ get is.. wtf do i do with this shit 22:17:40 well. 22:17:43 for an IO monad 22:17:46 wait, lemme type th is out 22:17:49 ok 22:17:51 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:18:15 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 22:18:37 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:19:43 its more that ive never seen any explanation of wtf good monad's are. the form is trivial. bind just unwraps a value and applies a function that wraps it back up 22:20:04 in a sense, bind is a flat-map 22:20:06 -!- kar8nga has joined. 22:20:11 or thats how ive learned it 22:20:29 psygnisf_: http://pastie.org/private/5dk2ijnlme4ikoghy5h0bw 22:20:32 that's an IO monad 22:20:38 there are more "theoretical" monads 22:20:44 but that will get you pure IO in your lang 22:20:52 another way is to build up a bind tree as the main value 22:20:54 lazily 22:20:58 and recurse through it 22:21:00 performing the actions 22:21:53 er 22:21:55 return b(result); 22:21:56 ofc 22:22:28 -!- ais523_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:22:53 psygnisf_: basically, what a monad gives you there 22:22:56 is that IO stuff can't "escape" 22:23:03 you can't put IO into a function that doesn't return an IO value 22:23:03 o.o? 22:23:09 due to the types of bind 22:23:14 there's no way to go from (m a) to a 22:23:17 permanently 22:23:20 well 22:23:22 if you have global variables 22:23:28 but that's not purely functional any more either. 22:24:07 there are no real variables as such 22:24:13 ehird enjoys his warm monad pie 22:24:24 psygnisf_: as long as you can't mutate global shit, IO is safe. 22:24:27 i enjoy ehirds warm monad pie too ;D 22:24:34 :| 22:25:00 i mean, the language is a rewriting system, so its inherently nothing but state 22:25:00 but 22:25:32 at the same time, its just a rewrite system, so there are no variables in the normal sense that we think of variables, etc. 22:25:47 it's a real brain teaser 22:25:52 and theres certainly no mutation of those variables. 22:25:57 no sirrydoo 22:26:00 wait 22:26:03 i'm not contributing 22:26:04 sorry. 22:26:49 don't you just love it when you make a program that only has half an ass, and you hand it out as the course project 22:26:59 and then the prof sends you an email telling you how great you did in the exam 22:27:02 also, ehird, i dont know wtf that pastie is telling me 22:27:11 and says he's waiting eagerly to see how great my project was. 22:27:20 i think psygnisf_'s main problem is that he doesn't understand english 22:27:31 psygnisf_: that you should use it wisely 22:27:43 i understand english fine. you're just not explaining anything :P 22:27:55 i need to see process to understand these things 22:28:11 you asked a question, I answered it, shrug. 22:28:11 i need to see what the hell is going on as this thing is used to understand what it actually does 22:28:22 it would help if your questions made sense 22:28:24 you answered it in a way that makes no sense, which amounts to not answering it at all. 22:28:41 makes sense to me, ymmw 22:28:42 *ymmv 22:28:55 yes but you understand monads already 22:33:52 i dont know. i dont think i can properly comprehend monads nevermind use them in this language. 22:33:58 monad pie getting cold? 22:34:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:34:06 a cool pie. 22:34:09 hi ais523 22:34:14 i'm feeling extremely insane atm 22:34:19 just fyi 22:34:26 i might just use impure IO stuff. i dont think it'd matter all that much, really. 22:34:37 oklopol: you're ALWAYS extremely insane 22:34:40 is it lazily evaluate, psygnisf_? 22:34:43 if so, don't even bother 22:34:45 ais523: hi 22:34:47 it is lazy 22:34:57 psygnisf_: then impure functions won't work 22:35:02 -!- jix has joined. 22:35:03 :\ 22:35:29 well, i was thinking that IO stuff would force evaluation in the appropriate fashion. 22:35:42 psygnisf_: you can probably come up with semantics just as good as monads, maybe even essentially the same ones, just go for it. 22:35:54 lol 22:35:58 BELIEVE IN YOURESLF 22:36:00 i dont know how to go about that, oklopol. 22:36:18 use your thinking machine. 22:36:19 brain. 22:36:20 you know. 22:36:20 psygnisf_: impure + solve problems if they occur. 22:36:22 and think. 22:36:54 you could do like oklotalk, and evaluate lazily what (probably) has no side-effects :-) 22:37:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 22:37:43 I actually have semantics that let you have a 100% lazy, 100% impure system. 22:37:48 They involve seeing. I've told oklopol about them 22:37:54 if i understoof monads i might be able to do something. but.. nobody explains monads adequately to me. 22:38:02 to see is to necessitate........ 22:38:02 It also means that pure equivalent programs can differ... 22:38:06 all i get is a bunch of "here are your axioms kthxbye" 22:38:09 psygnisf_: ITYM "I don't understand them" 22:38:14 Not our fault; your problem. 22:38:28 durr? 22:38:33 i didn't say it was your fault 22:38:39 stop being a defensive little cunt 22:38:55 uh huh. 22:39:01 "nobody explains monads adequately to me." 22:39:06 yes. 22:39:08 thats note blame 22:39:09 not* 22:39:23 its not "its your FAULT i dont get monads!" 22:39:26 i never said it was blame. 22:39:32 sure you did 22:39:37 "Not our fault" 22:39:40 fault is blame 22:39:43 it's my fault, i broke the vase 22:39:53 so. 22:40:02 i think i should do some tunstall encoding now 22:40:34 whoa you're coding nao? 22:40:36 badum TISH 22:40:38 because clearly this ircing stuff isn't working. 22:41:07 haha LOL kinda like *programming* but then well i guess it's not lol :DDDD 22:41:18 . 22:41:25 bad oklo. 22:43:24 ping ais523 22:43:57 pong 22:44:39 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:47:35 My first association to "carrier pigeons could be faster" was "unholy scramjet-equipped cyborg-pigeons, an abomination against nature" and not "normal pigeons carrying flash drives". 22:47:48 heh# 22:47:53 fizzie: your mind is awesome. 22:48:06 I'm not sure if that's the word. 22:48:33 why would scramjet-equipped cyborg-pigeons necessarily be an abomination against nature? 22:48:45 they could have evolved, you know... 22:48:46 ais523: I think asking that question makes you an abomination against nature. 22:49:06 psygnisf_: don't worry about understanding them, start by just *using* them and understanding will appear 22:49:17 olsner: he's trying to write a language. 22:49:25 that is lazy. and IO. 22:49:47 trying to write haskell? but that's already been written! 22:49:54 it uses rewriting. 22:50:21 understanding is over-rated anyways 22:50:25 fizzie: i was thinking painting pigeons black or white to encode 1/0. 22:50:43 just breed them in two colors 22:50:43 ais523: I think 'cyborg' implies 'not natural' 22:50:45 oklopol: brilliant 22:50:48 make them spotted. 22:50:57 why? 22:51:02 quantum pigeons? 22:51:08 or use three colors, and encode in balanced ternary 22:51:34 approx. half a bit extra per pidgeon! 22:51:35 well, quantum pigeons. no question about it. 22:51:52 fizzie: I'm still laughing 22:52:48 there is no room for understanding in exact sciences. 22:53:09 which hacking undoubtedly is (unlike programming) 22:56:48 kerlo's name is steve 22:57:09 ehird, you're just jumping to conclusions. 22:57:15 yep 22:57:24 I'm using a computer that used to belong to someone named Steve. 22:57:58 o 22:59:34 kerlo killed steve and stole his computer 23:00:07 No, Steve is still alive. Killing him may still have been an effective way of receiving his computer, though. 23:01:02 you're obviously in chock after killing steve, imagining him to still be alive 23:01:15 and if you deny it you're in denial! 23:01:37 ow ... head ... going ... to ... explode ... from ... comonads 23:01:42 * SimonRC eats pizza 23:02:23 That's a shame. 23:07:40 * SimonRC eats pizza That's a shame 23:07:46 a nice juxtaposition there 23:08:34 come on, ads 23:09:13 guess you could do comb-on ads 23:09:36 -!- ais523 has quit ("going home"). 23:13:42 -!- X-Scale has joined. 23:30:15 X-Scale: i always read your nick as an action 23:30:25 * oklopol checks how similar it actually is 23:30:31 mm. not very. 23:32:46 argh 23:32:53 I'm away for an hour or so 23:32:59 and way too much to read above 23:33:04 :-) 23:33:15 it's not that much. 23:33:31 o 23:33:32 o 23:33:32 o 23:33:32 o 23:33:33 o 23:33:34 o 23:33:36 o 23:33:39 if you know what song that was 23:33:42 then 23:33:43 umm 23:33:46 well, you won't know. 23:34:07 afk 23:35:21 I'll sing a song, too! 23:35:22 oooo 23:35:22 oooo 23:35:23 ee 23:35:26 ii 23:35:28 oooo 23:35:29 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaxxxxxxxxxxx 23:42:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:49:02 11:57:31 as in, he's going to the bus. 23:49:02 11:57:34 to go home. 23:49:08 actually, away from home 23:49:11 o 23:49:15 but 23:49:16 it's late 23:49:17 is it not 23:49:25 indeed 23:49:33 * oerjan is back home now 23:49:40 what does the bus do, then 23:50:00 home -> town, then later town -> home 23:50:07 okay. 23:50:14 ... town is open at this time? 23:50:15 well, approximately. there's also a small walk involved :D 23:50:31 it's a city 23:50:33 can towns be closed 23:50:34 ? 23:51:15 town ~= city center, in this usage 23:51:24 i guess "downtown" is more accurate 23:51:45 s/small/short/ 23:52:15 also, my day schedule is completely chaotic, in case anyone hadn't noticed 23:53:52 chaotic is good 23:55:47 Does complex numbers' square roots also always have two roots? (as with real ones) 23:55:58 as Slereah2 said, except for zero. 23:56:20 i fought myself so hard not to make that useless addition :P 23:56:27 heh :D 23:56:57 WHAT ABOUT -0 23:57:13 * oerjan swats Slereah2 -----### 23:57:16 also, you know, DID YOU KNOW YOU CAN GENERALIZE THAT FOR NTH ROOTS. 23:57:20 but NO. bad oklo. 23:57:30 yes i knew 23:58:02 i mean i almost said that. 23:58:11 but maybe you understood that. 23:58:36 oklopol : nth root has n results 23:58:39 basically, x^n = y^n <=> (x/y)^n = 1, which means everything non-zero has exactly has many roots as 1 has 23:58:48 *as 23:58:57 Each one being a rotation of 2pi/n in the complex plane 23:59:26 Slereah2: exactly, that's the trivial useless thing i managed not to tell firefly.