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00:26:44 <MizardX> What's with the quit message "This computer has gone to sleep"? Google gives > 8000 hits, all of which is IRC logs.
00:28:06 <oerjan> and not a single person?
00:29:13 <oerjan> so next try to find which client they are using...
00:31:38 <ehird> MizardX: xchat aqua
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00:31:48 <ehird> Corun: you use os x rite?
00:31:48 <MizardX> !taf2! VERSION X-Chat Aqua 0.16.0 (xchat 2.6.1) Darwin 9.6.0 [i386/1.80GHz/SMP]
00:31:51 <ehird> you made that app thing
00:31:58 <ehird> that you linked here
00:32:03 <ehird> and I liked but didn't because it required leopard
00:32:09 <ehird> we're investigating your quit message
00:32:14 <ehird> and we think it's xchat aqua
00:32:21 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit).
00:32:38 <oerjan> CTCP VERSION reply from Corun: X-Chat Aqua 0.16.0 (xchat 2.6.1) Darwin 9.5.0 [i386/2.20GHz/SMP]
00:32:46 <ehird> glad to know his COMPUTER talks to us.
00:33:02 <oerjan> i'll try another nick i found on google
00:33:27 <oerjan> CTCP VERSION reply from Lachy: X-Chat Aqua 0.16.0 (xchat 2.6.1) Darwin 9.6.0 [i386/2.40GHz/SMP]
00:34:02 * oerjan hopes lachy doesn't get paranoid from being ctcp'ed out of the blue :D
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00:48:42 <ehird> <AnMaster> hm fizzie, you are from Finland?
00:49:32 <oerjan> you mean fizzie hasn't answered yet? how rude!
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01:58:30 <AnMaster> ehird, well did he answer then or?
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02:55:36 <kerlo> Hy gys, s ths TF-8?
02:57:45 <oerjan> Nöpe, äccördïng tö mÿ chëck öf thë lögs ït's ISO-8859-1. Thïs shöüld bë, thöügh.
02:58:19 <oerjan> (My client auto-translates so I cannot tell from it)
03:04:05 <oerjan> let me paste my relevant settings
03:04:48 <oerjan> 04:04 recode_autodetect_utf8 = ON
03:04:48 <oerjan> 04:04 recode_fallback = CP1252
03:04:48 <oerjan> 04:04 recode_out_default_charset = utf8
03:04:48 <oerjan> 04:04 recode_transliterate = ON
03:06:37 <kerlo> How did that look?
03:06:58 <kerlo> Now all I have to do is make it actually display properly.
03:07:17 <kerlo> ?t's d?spl?y?ng l?k? th?s.
03:07:31 <oerjan> note my terminal is actually not set to Unicode itself
03:07:45 <kerlo> Except when I type it, in which case it displays as weird boxy things.
03:08:29 <oerjan> so i only see things right that fall within Latin-1 part of Unicode
03:08:39 <kerlo> Did it still work?
03:09:17 <oerjan> but, does that look right to you?
03:09:30 <kerlo> Currently, that looks right to me and the UTF-8 stuff doesn't.
03:09:33 <oerjan> because that comes out as ISO
03:10:09 <oerjan> my client shows all of them properly
03:10:39 <kerlo> I'm guessing this is happening: I type, PuTTY sends UTF-8 to screen, screen sends ISO to irssi, irssi sends ISO to the server.
03:11:38 <kerlo> scrëën -d -r döës thïs.
03:11:59 <kerlo> Which displays as fuzzy boxes in the input line and question marks in chat.
03:12:07 <kerlo> But it's apparently sending it correctly.
03:12:13 <oerjan> 04:04 term_charset = iso8859-1
03:12:30 <kerlo> No, I have ANSI_X3.4-1968.
03:12:42 <oerjan> i don't know what that is :D
03:12:53 <oerjan> possibly something 7-bit
03:13:32 <oerjan> -1968 would seem like before anything beyond ASCII was invented
03:14:16 <oerjan> (that's my setting. if you manage to set PuTTY to use actual unicode, you probably should use that
03:14:32 <kerlo> I think PuTTY is set to UTF-8 currently.
03:14:44 <kerlo> Let me try starting a new irssi with -U.
03:15:16 <oerjan> well then you should probably do term_charset = UTF-8
03:16:17 <kerlo> PuTTY sending UTF-8, screen called without -U, term_charset = ANSI_X3.4-1968: bläh
03:16:54 <kerlo> PuTTY sending UTF-8, screen called without -U, term_charset = ANSI_X3.4-1968: bläh
03:17:06 <kerlo> Er, s/ANSI_X3.4-1968/UTF-8/ on that last one.
03:17:52 <oerjan> as far as my browser window of the logs implies
03:19:01 <kerlo> Ökäy, thïs dïspläys möstlÿ rïght.
03:19:09 <kerlo> The Ö doesn't, though.
03:19:58 <kerlo> I'm guessing Ö isn't within the Latin-1 part of Unicode or something.
03:20:29 <kerlo> None of that is showing properly.
03:20:40 <kerlo> The capital letters, anyway.
03:20:49 <oerjan> <kerlo> Ökäy, thïs dïspläys möstlÿ rïght.
03:21:11 <kerlo> That looks roughly like this: #Vkay, this displays mostly right.
03:21:22 <kerlo> The # is one of those fuzzy boxes, the V is inverse color.
03:21:36 <oerjan> without any " on top of anything?
03:21:45 <kerlo> It has those over the lowercase letters.
03:22:14 <kerlo> I know that there is something that supports only lowercase accented characters.
03:23:59 <oerjan> also, ANSI_X3.4-1968 is the canonical name for ASCII
03:25:38 <oerjan> do you still have those recode* settings?
03:26:06 <kerlo> Apparently, CP437 supports Ä, Ö and Ü but not Ë or Ï, as well as a seemingly arbitrary set of Greek letters.
03:26:15 <kerlo> Also, everything messes up when I type Ä.
03:26:32 <kerlo> 03:26 recode_autodetect_utf8 = ON
03:26:32 <kerlo> 03:26 recode_fallback = CP1252
03:26:32 <kerlo> 03:26 recode_out_default_charset = UTF-8
03:26:32 <kerlo> 03:26 recode_transliterate = ON
03:26:41 <oerjan> what happens when i type à in here?
03:27:18 <kerlo> It displays as fuzzy-box inverse-color-C.
03:27:51 <oerjan> it should be A with ~ on top
03:28:44 <kerlo> Your à is the same as my Ã; both display as box-C here.
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03:29:58 <oerjan> curious. i'll leave this to the actual experts.
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03:46:28 <MizardX> My guess is that the [c] is a replacement character for symbols not representable in the font you are using...
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07:36:04 <Ilari> bsmntbombdood: It is easy to hand read-only snapshot of file or directory tree, but how to share something read-write?
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08:50:30 <psygnisf_> http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/ling.2006.37.2.271
08:51:05 <psygnisf_> Optimality Theoretic models of phonology are NP-hard, while normal rule-derivation phonologies are P.
08:56:42 <Ilari> Probably optimality theoretic models can express more phonologies than rule-derivation...
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09:12:26 <psygnisf_> ilari, they can express different ones.
09:13:04 <psygnisf_> but there are some mindnumbingly trivial rules that OT has a bitch of a time with, but that rule-derivation handles with hardly any interesting effort at all.
09:14:08 <lament> i'd go with whichever one makes more sense
09:14:39 <lament> ot is a bit weird yeah
09:14:48 <psygnisf_> "ok, so you've got these constraints, right"
09:14:57 <psygnisf_> "and then you generate an INFINITE number of candidates, see"
09:15:17 <psygnisf_> "then you filter out candidates until you have one that violates the least constraints. tada!"
09:17:34 <lament> 'and then you pick the one you like the most out of a bunch of equally likely candidates'?
09:18:01 <psygnisf_> its not very informative, to be honest.
09:18:36 <lament> is any linguistics outside phonetics?
09:21:41 <psygnisf_> personally i find phonetics and phonology to be boring
09:21:55 <psygnisf_> i go for syntax/semantics, personally.
09:25:30 <lament> what field of linguistics, outside phonetics, has produced anything of value?
09:26:16 <psygnisf_> i dont think you know much about it sir :)
09:29:20 <psygnisf_> why do you say it's a joke science, lament
09:32:16 <MizardX> http://www.aiforge.net/ - website about programming games ... most interesting one I've found (only got to M in the list so far) is Fleet Commander, which happen to be mentained by the site owner
09:33:17 <MizardX> 90% of the games is about controlling a single robot, using some low level interface...
09:44:15 <lament> psygnisf_: i guess i just mean the theoretical part
09:46:00 <lament> because it hasn't done anything of value :)
09:46:40 <psygnisf_> i'd say it's done LOTS of value. if you care about the workings of grammar.
09:47:26 <lament> it produced a bunch of toy models of varying complexity
09:48:01 <psygnisf_> im skeptical about whether you actually know what syntax is actually doing
09:51:06 <lament> they don't come close to reflecting the reality
09:51:41 <psygnisf_> i eman, cmon, what models do you perceive as toy models?
09:51:58 <psygnisf_> just name three, and give examples of how they fail to reflect reality
09:52:48 <psygnisf_> and why that single failure justifies them being toy theories, while other theories, like say quantum mechanics, also have glaringly obvious inabilities to reflect reality that don't qualify them as toy theories.
09:53:57 <lament> quantum mechanics has awesome predictive power and important real-world applications
09:54:13 <psygnisf_> but so do the various theories of syntax. :)
09:54:21 <psygnisf_> im still waiting for your examples.
09:55:19 <psygnisf_> but cmon, what are YOUR contentions
09:55:28 <psygnisf_> since thats really the issue here.
09:56:02 <lament> any theory which tries to treat language as a formal system (generative grammar) is laughable
09:57:09 <oklopol> cuz ppl are ppl they aren't no machines...............
09:57:25 <lament> because languages are obviously not formal systems
09:58:47 <psygnisf_> lament: i'd say languages obviously ARE formal systems
09:59:09 <lament> really, you think that?
09:59:31 <psygnisf_> i've seen the data. all sorts of crazy shit that you dont realize until you actually dive into it
10:00:06 <psygnisf_> ridiculous things like purely tree structural relations that govern the acceptability of the use of this kind of pronoun or that kind of expression
10:00:32 <psygnisf_> you dont realize how insanely formulaic and well defined language is until you study it
10:01:34 <psygnisf_> granted, there are all sorts of complications when you get into use of language vs. structure of the utterances, e.g. pragmatics, but even THAT has so many amazingly well defined, systematic ways of operating
10:02:10 <lament> what's the difference between language and structure of utterances?
10:02:32 <psygnisf_> well no no, the diffrence is betwen the act of using an utterance, and the utterance itself
10:03:45 <psygnisf_> the utterances themselves, ignoring things like false starts, and other illformed things, are fairly well defined formal systems, and the way you use them is also fairly well defined.
10:04:23 <psygnisf_> they're by no means perfectly understood, but it's not as tho we're just dicking around with silly theories that dont really reflect anything in the language.
10:04:33 <lament> is human behaviour a formal system?
10:05:46 <psygnisf_> well, at some level, undoubtedly. and the more you look at experimental psychology the harder it becomes to /not/ think of human behavior as a very neat, computational system.
10:10:04 <psygnisf_> where are you from, lament? which country?
10:11:27 <lament> it's a difficult question
10:12:37 <oklopol> would be fun to study human social interaction as a formal system
10:13:34 <oklopol> or well theoretical social interaction, i'm not interested in how humans do it specifically, just in general
10:13:37 <psygnisf_> also, regarding human behavior as a formal system, its basically inescapable unless you believe in a soul. if everything is material, of a sort, then all there is is what amounts to a formal system of enormous scale. even at the level of neurons its obviously necessarily formal, in a sense.
10:14:11 <psygnisf_> neurons dont know. neurons are just neurons. they're signal processors and the signals have no meaning, outside of the context of the system that they're used in, namely, the brain.
10:14:13 <oklopol> studying game of life as a formal system on a macroscopic level would be pretty stupid
10:14:37 <oklopol> even though it's fairly well defined
10:14:40 <psygnisf_> ive been interested in trying to explore a formal model of memetics
10:16:36 <psygnisf_> well, semi-formal. something that explores the ways in which the smallest memetic items combine and interact
10:18:00 <psygnisf_> lament, if you can think of an example of why you think modern syntactic theories fail, or even if you can just name one that you don't like, do mention it. it'd be more substantial and worthwhile than just a proclamation of invalidity. :)
10:19:22 <oklopol> lament belongs in the ehird category of not having to justify your opinions because they right anyway. lament is just a bit older and lazier.
10:19:56 <oklopol> i think he mentioned he's like 2 already
10:20:03 <psygnisf_> and probably not quite as wrong as ehird tends to be. :)
10:20:20 <psygnisf_> but he seems to have no clue even what modern syntax is like.
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13:48:00 <ehird> <AnMaster> ehird, well did he answer then or?
13:48:05 <ehird> The previous question: slowness.
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13:56:11 <impomatic> Has befunge.org moved, or just disappeared?
13:56:45 <ehird> 13:56 <ehird> Fizzie from #esoteric owned it.
13:56:45 <ehird> 13:56 <ehird> It just pointed to his site, zem.fi.
13:56:46 <ehird> 13:56 <ehird> He let the reg drop sometime this year.
13:56:48 <ehird> 13:56 <ehird> I might register it.
14:09:48 <AnMaster> I wonder if you could use setcontext/getcontext to implement co-routines in C?
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14:20:36 <ehird> They are also continuations.
14:51:35 <SimonRC> headline: Google sneezes; Internet catches cold
14:51:59 <SimonRC> their bad-website-spotter has started saying everything is potentially malicious
14:52:40 <ehird> http://www.google.com/interstitial?url=http://www.google.com/
14:53:23 <AnMaster> ehird, wonder how soon they will correct it
14:54:20 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/7tutu/google_is_marking_every_site_as_malicious/
14:54:53 <SimonRC> ehird: fucking hell that's quick
14:55:28 <ehird> <me> "copyright infringement is not theft."
14:55:31 <ehird> <idiot> "yup, and oral sex is not really sex."
14:55:40 <ehird> I like the analogy apart from the part where it makes no sense whatsoever.
14:57:00 <AnMaster> ehird, http://digg.com/tech_news/Someone_is_about_to_get_fired_at_Google
14:57:24 <ehird> further confirming your intelligence, I guess.
14:57:25 <AnMaster> (hm, someone should digg a page on reddit that reddits the page that digg's reddit!)
14:57:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I hate both reddit and digg
14:57:52 <ehird> So why did you link me to digg?
14:57:58 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7tuou/google_thinks_reddit_is_an_attack_site_wtf/
14:58:03 <AnMaster> ehird, because I know you prefer reddit
14:58:21 <ehird> I said that because I know you prefer gentoo.
14:58:40 <AnMaster> http://www.google.com/interstitial?url=foo
14:59:00 <AnMaster> "Your client does not have permission to get URL /interstitial?url=%3Cb%3Efoo%3C/b%3E from this server. (Client IP address: 90.130.2.10)" <-- damn
14:59:48 <ehird> If you think Google have an html injection on one of their most prominent pages (even before this bug), you're... rather deluded
15:00:02 <AnMaster> ehird, I was thinking it wouldn't work
15:00:15 <AnMaster> I mean if it had worked it would have been awesome
15:00:28 <AnMaster> and would have made it first on reddit or such I bet ;)
15:00:45 <AnMaster> so worth trying I mean, slim chance
15:01:20 <SimonRC> you'd have thought that the reddit posters would check the existing 9999 stories on a topic before posting a new one
15:01:26 <ehird> SimonRC: but but but KARMA
15:01:37 <ehird> also: wasn't there when I posted it.
15:01:40 <SimonRC> I don't know how reddit works
15:01:46 <ehird> AnMaster: 1) If by "awesome" you mean "boring and rather unexploitable"
15:01:52 <ehird> 2) I think that's more digg territory.
15:01:57 <AnMaster> ehird, http://xinutec.org/~pippijn/files/sc/osiris-20090131160126.png
15:02:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Ha ha ha, it's funny because it makes fun of microsoft!
15:02:32 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I thought more sophisticated humor would be too advanced for you
15:02:48 <ehird> stopmalware.org is down
15:03:14 <ehird> ITT: One of the hugest companies evar completely relying on a third party service that isn't also huge:
15:04:07 <ehird> let's all switch to cuil
15:04:36 <ehird> Jeez, how hard can it be?
15:04:44 <ehird> def is_malware(site):
15:04:51 <ehird> comment out the rest
15:04:57 <SimonRC> it's harder than that, obviously
15:04:59 <ehird> end-of-lack-of-profit
15:05:04 <ehird> SimonRC: why should it be? :P
15:05:16 <ehird> sure, that's not exactly a durable solution
15:05:23 <ehird> but, umm, when your whole search is completely disabled for everyone..
15:06:02 <SimonRC> I wonder why it doesn't assume things are safe instead
15:06:31 <ehird> because the idiots that added it presumably never thought it could ever go down.
15:06:49 <ehird> they will be fired and will move to cuil :P
15:07:10 <ehird> Google Results Considered (Potentially) Harmful
15:16:12 <ehird> I do that sometimes too
15:16:16 <AnMaster> ehird, odd side effect of this: the cached links are gone
15:16:42 <ehird> This is an awful mess.
15:17:12 <ehird> AnMaster: for some definitions of "alive"
15:17:22 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe no one noticed yet at the googleplex
15:17:25 <ehird> the traffic is near nil, they're financially fucked, ...
15:17:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Come on, I highly doubt that
15:17:56 <AnMaster> This site may harm your computer.
15:17:56 <AnMaster> Search engine with results shown with images and a drill-down menu. General feature, webmaster and investor information.
15:17:56 <AnMaster> www.cuil.com/ - Similar pages -
15:19:29 <ehird> still broken for me
15:19:53 <ehird> Losses: $50 million
15:20:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Humanity's collective butt.
15:21:02 <ehird> I wonder how on earth this happened.
15:21:07 <ehird> I mean, surely they stresstest this thing.
15:21:46 <AnMaster> ehird, oh even google agreed the Swedish gov sucks: http://omploader.org/vMTZ6Nw
15:22:13 <ehird> AnMaster: does it censor the internet?
15:22:17 <ehird> if so, that's amusing. if not, meh.
15:22:40 <AnMaster> ehird, someone took a pic of searching for RIAA too btw
15:22:49 <ehird> that's not even funny.
15:22:54 <ehird> it says "This site may harm your computer"
15:22:57 <ehird> not "This site sucks"
15:23:44 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes Swedish gov wants to do that I believe. Swedish police makes the ISPs filter child porn at least, not sure about other stuff.
15:23:59 <AnMaster> ehird, and there was the FRA law
15:24:36 <AnMaster> <ehird> stopmalware.org is down <-- redirects to nist now?
15:25:24 <AnMaster> ehird, or did you mean stopbadware.org ?
15:25:33 <ehird> which is still down
15:28:18 <AnMaster> ehird, oh I had paul graham in google search before and with that "this site may cause harm..."
15:28:37 <AnMaster> didn't take a screenshot though
15:28:47 <ehird> this site may cause harm to your computeromobile
15:29:03 <ehird> it's a computer. on wheels
15:29:14 <ehird> think of the possibilities, man.
15:29:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I fail to see how that makes sense for "java"?
15:29:33 <ehird> the omobile was an afterthought
15:30:38 <ehird> It's a computer. On wheels. With hos.
15:30:43 <ehird> Think of the possibilities. Man.
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15:41:07 <ehird> haven't seen you here before?
15:42:26 <impomatic> X-Scale: I think I've seen you in #corewars ;-)
16:06:03 <X-Scale> Hello there, impomatic & ehird :)
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16:22:24 <ehird> oklopol: i'm writing an oklotalk-- compiler. again :o
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16:58:58 <oklopol> err google results showed pages as harmful for a while?
16:59:57 <oklopol> i don't see why anyone should care even if they went down altogether
17:00:37 <ehird> 1) yes, and so didn't let you click to them
17:00:43 <ehird> 2) because google is popular/useful?
17:01:02 <ehird> (you had to manually copypaste the URL to go somewhere)
17:01:44 <ehird> the other engines aren't particularly good
17:02:56 <oklopol> the others were good enough back when i last used them ;) maybe they suck even more nowadays, dunno.
17:03:14 <oklopol> i've used only google for many years now
17:03:46 <oklopol> but i refuse to acknowledge i'm in any way dependant on it, therefore i refuse to understand why anyone would care about its problems.
17:03:49 <ehird> i think pattern matching will be oklotalk---compiling's downfall. _again_
17:04:06 <ehird> i wonder if it's heretical to write an oklotalk-- parser that produces no errors.
17:04:28 <ehird> (a ]) actually parses the ] as a var name atm
17:04:33 <oklopol> umm. what errors could the parser produce?
17:04:35 <ehird> though i dunno what (a) would be
17:04:38 <ehird> atom (, atom a, atom )
17:05:20 <ehird> (a b c d parses as (a b c) d :D
17:10:20 <ehird> oklopol: what is your officially deemed parsing of (a)
17:15:15 <ehird> [('name', '('), ('name', 'a'), ('name', ')')]
17:15:39 <ehird> [('app', [('name', 'a'), ('name', 'b'), ('name', '('), ('name', 'c'), ('name', ')')]), ('name', 'd'), ('name', ')')]
17:16:02 <oklopol> umm parsing opinions for hypothetical extensions of oklotalk--? :) how about you make oklotalk
17:16:03 <ehird> where a ( or ) surrounded by a space is the atom
17:16:15 <ehird> oklopol: making oklotalk is hard when there's no reference to implement it from :-D
17:17:05 <oklopol> yes, maybe it is somewhat unsimple.
17:28:06 <SimonRC> this is an excelently-done rpg parody: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wwLrgxtALWs
17:28:29 <ehird> oklopol: can we have oktobot
17:28:40 <ehird> SimonRC: i watched that in 2007.
17:32:46 * ehird pirates mathematica!!
17:38:59 -!- oktabot has joined.
17:39:31 <ehird> lol ok, so it's 2 the name
17:40:25 <ehird> mathematica in 30 MINUTES :D
17:40:32 <ehird> writing parser, y'see.
17:40:43 <oktabot> An error: Unmatching parens @ row 1.
17:41:12 <oktabot> An error: Unmatching parens @ row 1.
17:41:46 <oklopol> wellllll you see i took the i don't care what happens in boundary cases approach.
17:41:55 <oklopol> because, well, it was kinda a language stub.
17:43:15 <ehird> I actually parse the same as you
17:43:29 <ehird> $(a) -> the atom '(a', then the variable name ')'
17:43:36 <ehird> well, you parse ) as a real close paren, I just parse it as a var name
17:43:39 <ehird> since there's no (
17:43:50 <ehird> making sense is not required, never erroring is.
17:44:49 <ehird> wonder how (->) should parse
17:44:52 <ehird> welllllllllllllllllllllll
17:45:01 <ehird> it'll parse as var (, var ->, var )
17:45:19 <ehird> (-> a) will prolly return $f.
17:46:51 <ehird> oklopol: "$ a" parses as "the atom ' a'"
17:47:08 <ehird> ("$" parses as "the atom ''", so I was expecting (atom '', name 'a'))
17:47:52 <ehird> [('atm', ''), ('name', 'a')]
17:48:43 <oklopol> wait that didn't test anything.
17:48:59 <ehird> oklopol: did you ever impl nopol?
17:49:23 <ehird> i musta missed this
17:49:48 <oklopol> nopol has an object oriented bot 8|
17:50:04 <oklopol> i thought i always use that same one :D
17:50:36 -!- nopolie has joined.
17:51:27 <nopolie> global name 'rawunparse_' is not defined
17:51:50 <oklopol> was that the bot that got broken and i didn't fix it
17:52:05 <oklopol> i mean the nopol interp never errors iirc
17:53:03 <ehird> look at it sideways
17:53:13 -!- nopolie has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:53:34 -!- nopolie has joined.
17:53:37 <oklopol> no idea what i changed, but i'm optimistic about this.
17:53:50 -!- Judofyr has joined.
17:54:02 <oklopol> okay, i have unparse, unparse_ and rawunparse
17:54:11 <oklopol> (now what the fuck are those)
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17:54:16 -!- fungot has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
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17:54:36 <ehird> and had to go alongwith it
17:55:31 -!- nopolie has joined.
17:55:35 <oklopol> let's try one more random thing
17:55:45 <ehird> sorry to ruin your hopes and ruin your dreams
17:58:22 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
17:59:12 <oklopol> well. maybe i'll look into that some day. i don't remember what was broken about it, and i'd have to debug to find out.
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18:00:27 <oklopol> so somehow after evaluation the code has changed its structure
18:03:24 <AnMaster> I see. What sort of language is it? I guess there is no specs?
18:05:38 <ehird> it has turing complete NOPs
18:05:41 <ehird> using negative-depth lists
18:05:46 <ehird> (a) is depth 1, ((b)) is depth 2
18:05:49 <ehird> it has depth -1, -2, etc
18:05:54 <ehird> a is depth 0, naturally
18:06:12 <ehird> basically, a negative depth list snatches all the elements around it to create a new positive list with its elements and those
18:06:20 <oklopol> iz weird tree rewriting stuphs.....
18:06:34 <AnMaster> because this thing with nop and negative depth list sounds very familiar
18:06:42 <AnMaster> and one I remember confused me a lot
18:06:49 <oklopol> yeah ehird just didn't know i'd implemented it
18:07:03 <ehird> oklopol's languages are just awesome
18:07:05 <oklopol> of course, it seems i technically haven't implemented it anymore, because it doesn't work.
18:07:13 <ehird> happy australian mailman reminders day
18:08:03 <oklopol> unfortunately the really insane ones refuse to be realized. except graphica. but for some reason people aren't interested in languages you can only use to create graphs.
18:08:04 <AnMaster> well I noticed lots of mailing lists sends the message one day late
18:08:20 <oklopol> oklotalk-- isn't that insane
18:08:31 <oklopol> i implemented the sane subset with a semisane syntax
18:09:12 <ehird> I wonder what A-hat and .. do
18:09:16 <oklopol> of course the way you can do imperative kinda control flow using pattern matching, and how things are functions and objects are kinda weird features.
18:09:21 -!- fizzie has joined.
18:09:22 <ehird> AnMaster: A with ^ on top.
18:09:35 <AnMaster> ehird, that is A with 2 dots here..
18:09:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, your font just sucks
18:09:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed that is the issue
18:10:22 <Deewiant> is what it's actually called IIRC
18:10:23 <ehird> the correct program is Al/_Ä
18:10:30 <ehird> so what does Ä do, oklopol
18:10:42 <ehird> AnMaster: no, that's Cise
18:10:44 <oklopol> ehird: i think it's [0..n]
18:10:47 <ehird> which is oklopol's golfing lang
18:10:56 <ehird> AnMaster: brainfuck without IO in cise:
18:10:57 <ehird> ;I,;mc,[]{"[]"},=}!!b->"+"+mC1"-"-mC1">"+C1"<"-C1{;X}Wh=mC0=}X??b
18:11:07 <oklopol> or was it [1..n] or [0..n] based on whichever made more sense in context...
18:11:08 <AnMaster> ehird, more golfed than golfscript?
18:11:18 <ehird> quicksort /2;A b:C,',JnB
18:11:27 <AnMaster> ehird, they should add on anarchy golf
18:11:38 <oklopol> add it without an interp or a spec
18:11:42 <ehird> AnMaster: it actually tries all possible parsings (it's very ambiguous) and picks the one that uses types most "correctly"
18:11:59 <Deewiant> does it have a spec or anything?
18:12:05 <oklopol> there's a parser though, i just haven't implemented the less interesting parts
18:12:06 <AnMaster> ehird, so this is one instruction per char with jumps or such?
18:12:46 <oklopol> Deewiant: there's a small spec-kinda thing on my computer, but it's not public. but i'm planning to add specs to all the languages on /oklopol/ as soon as possible.
18:13:05 <oklopol> at lest the parts that exist in my head.
18:13:12 <ehird> AnMaster: way more complex.
18:13:16 <ehird> it's funcitonal, sorta.
18:13:35 <oklopol> yeah functional, and ...pattern matchingal
18:14:00 <AnMaster> pattern matching functional languages are fun to code in
18:14:17 <oklopol> pattern matching is a crucial part of making it terse, you do stuff to input, cut it in parts with pattern matching syntax, and introduce assertions to guide the syntax-error backtracking, repeat
18:14:18 <AnMaster> but with that terse syntax, no idea
18:14:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh nice backtracking too
18:14:48 <oklopol> well there's that bf interp.
18:15:13 <SimonRC> ehird: did Ursala inspire that much?
18:15:19 <ehird> SimonRC: I don't think so.
18:15:35 <oklopol> AnMaster: the pattern matching is not easy. it's a mindfuck; but, let's hope you can read it in /cise.txt after a while.
18:16:23 <ehird> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/cise.txt
18:16:30 <SimonRC> what is the topic all about?
18:17:05 <ehird> [('name', '('), ('name', '='), ('name', 'a'), ('name', ')'), ('name', ')')]
18:17:08 <ehird> SimonRC: Stuff that happens there.
18:18:08 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:19:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, um that link doesn't really explains how it works
18:19:53 <ehird> [('assign', ('name', 'a'), ('lst', [('int', 1), ('int', 2), ('app', [('name', '+'), ('int', 2), ('int', 2)])])), ('name', ']'), ('name', ')')]
18:20:01 <AnMaster> for example how does merge sort work '/,)#<
18:20:15 <AnMaster> oklopol, can you describe how it is parsed and executed
18:20:45 <oklopol> AnMaster: i can and i have, on this channel
18:21:34 <oklopol> AnMaster: don't remember; anyway seriously, i will try to spec up the languages enough to quench ppl's curiosity, once i have the time
18:21:44 <oklopol> currently all my non-irc time is pretty much university time.
18:22:04 <oklopol> AnMaster: nope not recently.
18:22:09 <oklopol> around the time it was invented
18:22:11 <ehird> (= a [1 2 (+ 2 2)])
18:22:13 <ehird> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
18:23:24 <ehird> where da oktabot @
18:24:48 <ehird> omg omg omg 2 minutes tom athematica
18:28:03 <ehird> MATHEMATICA IS FREAKING MIIIIIINE
18:29:22 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:32:06 <ehird> OMG INSTALLING MATHEMATICA GUYZ
18:32:37 <oerjan> ehird: look at the positive side, you cannot lose your sanity - again
18:34:59 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:48:03 <oerjan> also, if google's harmful site detection breaks, it should say so rather than choosing either true or false as default
18:48:44 <oklopol> MAYBE THEY CAN'T A CODE LOL :DDD
18:59:49 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:02:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, IWC was interesting today
19:02:27 <AnMaster> I wonder how/if that will develop
19:02:46 <oerjan> whew! i actually managed to read IWC before AnMaster commented on it :D
19:03:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, I read it around 15:00 or so every day
19:03:57 <oerjan> i would, if that was about the time i logged on. but today it isn't.
19:06:12 <oerjan> usually i go email -> log on irc -> irc logs -> IWC, and the last days you managed to get me before i finish the logs
19:07:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, just read IWC before irc?
19:07:42 <oerjan> um but irc is a continuous matter
19:07:49 <AnMaster> also darth and droids and square root of minus garfield of course (on those days)
19:08:41 <oerjan> oh well i guess it could work
19:08:49 -!- alex89ru has joined.
19:09:11 * oerjan read that domain as gesundheit.de
19:26:42 <AnMaster> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/this-site-may-harm-your-computer-on.html
19:26:47 <AnMaster> if you haven't seen it already
19:28:11 <AnMaster> also it seems that stopbadware went down due to lots of people trying to access it after the issue
19:28:53 <AnMaster> <oerjan> also, if google's harmful site detection breaks, it should say so rather than choosing either true or false as default <-- irrelevant since that wasn't the issue. The issue was according to google human error adding '/' as a bad url which for some reason matched all urls
19:29:43 <AnMaster> http://blog.stopbadware.org/2009/01/31/google-glitch-causes-confusion (if that loads for you, seem to be very slow atm)
19:30:15 <AnMaster> (as in several minutes load time)
19:31:09 <AnMaster> "[Update 1:36] Google updated its statement to reflect that StopBadware does not provide Google’s badware data."
19:32:27 <ehird> pirated software is so... yummu
19:37:19 <ehird> You will not be able to start virtual machines until you activate Parallels Desktop. If you have a valid activation key, click Activate Product. You can find the activation key in the product box from a retail store or in the e-mail confirming your online purchase. Otherwise, purchase a permanent activation key or obtain a free trial activation key.
19:37:21 <ehird> fuck yooooooouuuuuu
19:37:30 * ehird gets another free trial lol
19:38:21 <AnMaster> I mean wouldn't qemu work just fine for something as simple as running a keygen?
19:38:34 <ehird> yeah but i'm used to parallels and I have windows already installed on it
19:38:38 <psygnisf_> what do you think i should include as a primitive operation in my language? i've got +-*/ and a generic substitute operation
19:38:59 <ehird> and parallels is kind of like winzip
19:39:03 <ehird> you can sign up for new free trial keys
19:39:03 <psygnisf_> plus predefined but not primitive logic operations
19:39:06 <oklopol> psygnisf_: have you considered (a xor b - 7)
19:39:17 <AnMaster> psygnisf_, only one: substract and branch if not zero
19:39:33 <oklopol> golfing might be interesting for languages with complicated and somewhat random primitives.
19:39:49 <psygnisf_> that would make sense, anmaster, if there was an actual sequence of instructions to be followed.
19:39:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, abbreviated intercal?
19:40:02 <ehird> WOULD YOU LIKE TO INSTALL PARLLELS INTERNET SECURITY POWERED BY KASPERSKY AND GET A FREE ANUAL SUBSCRIPTION?
19:40:06 <AnMaster> psygnisf_, well what I described was OISC basically
19:40:15 <oklopol> AnMaster: i'm thinking more randomize_instruction_set()->golf().
19:40:33 <ehird> Unable to connect Floppy Disk 1.
19:40:34 <ehird> A file or device required for the operation of Floppy Disk 1 does not exist or is used by another process, or you have no permission to access it. The virtual machine will continue running, but the device will be disconnected.
19:40:37 <ehird> how will I do without a floppy!!11
19:40:54 <AnMaster> ehird, why would anyone need a floppy these days!?
19:41:01 <ehird> this is a VM floppy.
19:41:05 <ehird> and, for running old stuff
19:41:24 * ehird keygen.exe -->drag into parallels-->
19:41:25 <AnMaster> well, I thought *mac* users wouldn't need any floppy!
19:41:37 <ehird> woop, it's just like all keygens
19:41:44 <ehird> it draws its own gray-on-black window
19:41:49 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean, built in spyware too?
19:41:50 <ehird> and has a demo with weird music and gfx in the top
19:41:56 <ehird> AnMaster: naw, hardly any keygens have tht
19:42:04 <ehird> it's very ... demoscene
19:42:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I have a theory about that though...
19:42:42 <psygnisf_> also alternatively, what should i be considering for things like IO, since the language is lazy
19:42:49 <AnMaster> It use the user reaction as random seed.
19:42:55 <ehird> psygnisf_: monads.
19:42:58 <ehird> AnMaster: ha, that would be fun
19:42:58 <psygnisf_> i dont want to construct the whole monad thing :|
19:43:05 <ehird> psygnisf_: it's two functions
19:43:16 <psygnisf_> monads a) confuse me, b) confuse me, c) confuse me.
19:43:30 <ehird> 1. understand them
19:43:39 <AnMaster> ehird, well that is the only plausible explanation of demos in keygens
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19:43:51 <ehird> it's all about scene cred
19:43:53 <AnMaster> ehird, hey you need at least three steps
19:43:57 <ehird> the cooler your keygen demo, the cooler your group.
19:44:07 <ehird> no, ??? is in fact "make internet meme"[1]
19:44:25 <AnMaster> ehird, well I thought that was what you were trying to do
19:44:26 <ehird> and haskell nomads is already a /prog/ meme.
19:44:30 <ehird> so you can skip that step.
19:44:35 <MizardX> psygnisf_: You could evaluate those functions that call non-lazy (=I/O) functions immediately.
19:44:44 <psygnisf_> I was thinking that I could just have a universal variable that was defined at the beginning of each program execution called IO, and when you did like (read IO) it would evaluate to some new item that represented the next io state
19:44:44 <ehird> MizardX: or just evaluate the IO bits strictly
19:44:46 <ehird> my WIP lang has that
19:44:51 <ehird> it's rather complicated and non-intuitive
19:44:55 <AnMaster> ehird, /prog/? Does that actually exist on 4chan or whatever?
19:45:01 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a text board on 4chan
19:45:32 <AnMaster> ehird, is it as silly as the rest of it?
19:45:33 <psygnisf_> MizardX: yes, thats what i intend to do, the problem is more whether or not i want to consider side effects with IO given the laziness.
19:46:16 <AnMaster> (hey that almost looks like a smiley)
19:46:45 <ehird> but, you know, they're [b][i][u][spoiler]EXPERT [spoiler]BB[sup]Code[/sup][/spoiler] PROGRAMMERS[/spoiler][/u][/i][/b] so it all balances out.
19:47:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not very familiar with this markup language you use
19:47:20 <psygnisf_> ehird, any other things you think i should consider?
19:47:47 <ehird> Makes it black on black text until you hover over
19:47:49 <ehird> and it becomes white on black
19:47:55 <ehird> I compiled it just for you:
19:47:55 <ehird> http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1233430884/1-40
19:47:58 <AnMaster> oh I just had an idea, a forum software using LaTeX for markup
19:48:29 <AnMaster> "Specified thread ID does not exist"?
19:48:39 <ehird> AnMaster: that's the error it gave me when I didn't enter a subject.
19:48:42 <ehird> shiichan is... rather buggy.
19:48:50 <ehird> shiichan's bbcode even has comments.
19:48:54 <ehird> [rem]can't touch this[/rem]
19:49:07 <ehird> AnMaster: discussion
19:49:16 <ehird> Slereah2: Quite. Btw, why is Mathematica's input method weird?
19:49:20 <ehird> When the cursor goes horizontal.
19:49:48 <ehird> During evaluation of In[11]:= Power::infy: Infinite expression 1/0 encountered. >>
19:49:49 <Slereah2> Also beware : when you change something, you have to re-confirm EVERY LINE
19:49:49 <ehird> Out[11]= ComplexInfinity
19:49:53 <ehird> the 1/0 actually displays as
19:50:38 <ehird> Slereah2: how come you have to press enter to complete
19:51:40 <ehird> I defined x and now it's persisting
19:51:49 <X-Scale> I've done some Mathematica too and really hated it. They should have used scheme instead.
19:52:03 <ehird> I just wanna play with it for its graphical manipulation and stuff.
19:52:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> Slereah2: how come you have to press enter to complete <ehird> not return <-- ???
19:52:07 <ehird> The actual languagei s perverse.
19:52:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, shift-enter also words.
19:52:13 <ehird> but enter = numpad return
19:52:44 <AnMaster> also as far as I know they are the same key? Both generate same scancode I think
19:53:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Since when do I use a laptop?
19:53:28 <ehird> Also, yes, I believe so, but not in the GUI env.
19:53:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought you had a macbook of some type?
19:53:34 <ehird> They're distinguished quite often.
19:53:36 <ehird> AnMaster: no, iMac
19:53:43 <ehird> which is a stupid name btw.
19:53:47 <ehird> i cringe whenever I type it.
19:53:48 <AnMaster> hm xev claims both generate the event KP_Enter
19:54:33 <AnMaster> ehird, iAgree with you about the problem with the name iMac
19:54:46 <ehird> you think PHP's "just shit everything into the main namespace" is bad?
19:54:53 <ehird> built in functions
19:55:07 <AnMaster> but php has namespaces now with \ iirc
19:57:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("Bussy").
19:57:13 <FireFly> Does complex numbers' square roots also always have two roots? (as with real ones)
19:57:31 <ehird> as in, he's going to the bus.
19:57:42 <Slereah2> There are two square roots for all numbers, FireFly
19:57:51 <ehird> I have to admit... Mathematica is quite fun, even if it sucks.
19:57:54 <FireFly> Yeah, just wondering if it applies to complex ones too
19:57:57 <Slereah2> Because they are 180 rotations in the complex plane
19:58:00 <ehird> I mean, the glob of functions is just... fun.
19:58:10 <AnMaster> ehird, better or worse than php?
19:58:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, PHP isn't even fun.
19:58:34 <AnMaster> also what do you mean "glob of functions"? as in sq*() -> sqrt()?
19:58:34 <ehird> AnMaster: But like I said, Mathematica has *3,000* mainspace builtins.
19:58:39 <Slereah2> (R * e^if)^1/2 = sqrt(R) * e(if/2)
19:58:43 <ehird> glob = a gloopy heap
19:58:56 <ehird> gloopy: slimy, etc
19:59:00 <AnMaster> ehird, glob == wild card expanding, see jargon dictionary
19:59:06 <AnMaster> but ok it means what you said too
20:02:47 <ehird> ArrayPlot[CellularAutomaton[30, {{1}, 0}, 50]] works.
20:04:00 <ehird> I'm not fond of the language, but the environment is neat.
20:04:21 <ehird> Of course, no way in hell I'd pay Wolfram thousands of pounds for it...
20:05:14 <X-Scale> yes, the whole package is powerful.
20:06:40 -!- yoR has joined.
20:06:57 <ehird> ArrayPlot[CellularAutomaton[30, {{1, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1}, 0}, 50]]]
20:09:18 <ehird> Consider me unimpressed. :P
20:09:29 <ehird> What language does it use?
20:09:32 <ehird> Looks like a C-esque.
20:11:45 <X-Scale> I'm not sure. I know it's coded on Common Lisp.
20:14:41 <psygnisf_> that looks like it could be logo maybe. im fairly certain logo has wonky []-for-() stuff
20:15:02 <ehird> that's Mathematica.
20:15:06 <ehird> I was talking about maxima.
20:15:16 <ehird> btw, logo has [] as lambda
20:15:22 <ehird> tcl has [] as "evaluate this"
20:16:16 <AnMaster> or could be my ipv6 tunnel that is slow
20:16:40 <fizzie> Mathematica 6 is "only" 200 eur for students, and when you graduate you must upgrade it to the full version, but with a 75 % discount. (I think the student license used to be something significantly <200 back when it was 5.something.)
20:19:04 <ehird> Nope. Mathematica.
20:19:20 <ehird> fizzie: I'm not sure they'd count me as a "student"
20:19:23 <ehird> also, that parses as
20:19:29 <ehird> ((# + 2) &) /@ {1,2,3}
20:19:36 <ehird> where & postfix is the "make a function yo" operator
20:19:40 <ehird> # is the first arg in a function
20:20:39 <ehird> (# + ## &)[2, 3] -> 7
20:21:06 <fizzie> Didn't it do #1, #2, ... too?
20:22:02 <ehird> fizzie: it also has ##2
20:22:06 <ehird> which I assume is the third argument.
20:23:00 <fizzie> MATLAB has anonymous functions defined like @(a, b) a+b
20:23:13 <ehird> that's like so less fun though.
20:23:21 <ehird> a postfix operator that you give an expression is so much more... lulzy
20:24:07 <ehird> also, Function[x] == (x&)
20:24:13 <ehird> You can do the more "conventional":
20:24:23 <ehird> Function[{x,y}, x+y]
20:24:32 <ehird> But #+##& is so much more fun, no?
20:26:13 <X-Scale> Mathematica syntax is ideal for all those brainf*ck lovers. :)
20:26:34 <X-Scale> I remember hammer it for hours till it worked.
20:26:35 <ehird> Hmm, I wonder how it does scoping.
20:28:06 <fizzie> Lexical or dynamic, depending on whether you use Module[vars, body] or Block[vars, body].
20:28:09 <ehird> Y[f] := Function[x, f[x[x][#] &]][Function[x, f[x[x][#] &]]]
20:28:22 <ehird> Excersize for the reader: remove the [f] and the Function parts, and make it all #s and &s.
20:30:33 <ehird> mathematica needs a "give me something to do" button.
20:30:47 <fizzie> Meh, MATLAB syntax is so crummy. I can't make it call an anonymous function without sticking it in a variable; the only form of function call is "name(args)", which must have a name in there.
20:31:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I can provide that: Solve one of unsolved the millennium problems
20:31:52 <Deewiant> ehird: Y[f] := (f[#[#][#2] &]&)(f[#[#][#2] &]&) ?
20:32:12 <ehird> Deewiant: hmm, so #2 works if it's the first argument?
20:32:15 <ehird> i mean, it 'remembers'?
20:32:38 <ehird> i mean that's be awesome if so.
20:32:46 <Deewiant> I kinda misread what you were doing
20:33:00 <Deewiant> ehird: but anyhoo, you also need the LHS to say f_ and not f
20:33:07 <ehird> In[109]:= Sin[1000]
20:33:07 <ehird> Out[109]= Sin[1000]
20:33:11 <ehird> umm, thanks Mathematica
20:33:20 <Deewiant> ehird: most precise answer it can give.
20:33:52 <fizzie> Well, you can just N[] it.
20:34:00 <ehird> AnMaster: [] is function call
20:34:19 <AnMaster> normally in math notation you just write sin 1000
20:34:35 <Deewiant> but it is not, by any meaning of the word, weird
20:34:38 <ehird> AnMaster: That kind of fails when you nest anything
20:34:48 <ehird> it turns into lisp
20:34:52 <Deewiant> ehird: works well enough in Haskell :-P
20:35:02 <ehird> Deewiant: sure, but haskell doesn't have the massively-nested exprs mathematica does.
20:35:21 <Deewiant> ehird: sure it would if we didn't have . and $ :-P
20:35:26 <AnMaster> that reminds me, check out the channels #1,000 and #2,000
20:35:38 <ehird> AnMaster: umm, welcome to jackassville
20:35:47 <ehird> wtf made you think that was a good idea
20:35:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I would never think anyone here would fall for it
20:36:07 <ehird> i'm pretty sure not everyone here is an irc whiz
20:36:57 <Deewiant> what'd be special about those?
20:37:04 <ehird> no, proves that nobody online is
20:37:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, join 0 == part all channels
20:37:13 <ehird> 1. non-apathetic enough to try
20:37:17 <ehird> 2. not an irc whiz
20:37:30 <AnMaster> it turns into join #1 followed by join 0
20:37:37 <Deewiant> I always forget the syntax for joining multiple channels :-P
20:40:06 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit").
20:41:47 <ehird> "Based on original algorithms developed at Wolfram Research"
20:41:53 <ehird> I swear if I read this one more time I will kill somebody.
20:42:48 <Slereah2> Did you know that Wolfram Research proved that the 2,3 machine is TC?
20:43:54 <ehird> (newbies: Wolfram Research ran a prize to prove that, #esoteric denizen ais523 did so.)
20:45:00 <ehird> he was making a "joke"
20:45:08 <ehird> an odd thing; it's a lie where people know it's a lie
20:45:12 <ehird> but it's a lie in a way that it's funny.
20:45:35 <Slereah2> It's funny because it's untrue
20:45:39 <ehird> (I figure if I explain humour enough times you're bound to catch on eventually)
20:45:57 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep").
20:52:45 <ehird> ArrayPlot @/ CellularAutomaton[GameOfLife, InitialGrid, 100]]
20:52:47 <ehird> Let's try this then.
20:53:23 <Deewiant> I said that it's /@ before you noticed but I forgot to IRC-escape the /
20:53:34 <ehird> Now how do I make this infinite...
20:53:37 <ehird> As opposed to just 100 steps.
20:53:41 <ehird> Well, I guess I'll try passing Infinity.
20:53:46 <ehird> As I am blissfully naive
20:53:58 <ehird> It only needs the previous state...
20:54:02 <Deewiant> I think it precomputes the whole thing
20:54:28 <ehird> I just need a sort of... transitionanimate.
20:54:33 <ehird> i.e., result becomes input
20:55:17 <Deewiant> Or just raise it to 10000 first or something
20:55:20 <ehird> The Infinity thing?
20:55:41 <ehird> 10,000 is just eating my memory up nicely.
20:55:57 <ehird> You crashed mathematica I think :<
20:56:07 <Deewiant> I didn't do anything, you did :-P
20:56:41 <Deewiant> It was more a suggestion than an order :-P
20:57:26 <ehird> You crashed the ENGINE
20:57:47 <Deewiant> Or kill it if that doesn't work
20:57:47 <ehird> Yeah but now I lost my initial grid
20:57:55 <ehird> And my game of life spec
20:58:11 <ehird> when I quit the engine
20:58:20 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:58:26 <Deewiant> It should still have whatever you typed in before
20:58:31 <Deewiant> Unless you deleted it, of course :-P
20:58:32 <ehird> Deewiant: notebook crashed
20:58:43 <ehird> ais523: I'm trying out mathematica.
20:59:17 <ais523> ehird: finally got your trial copy?
20:59:19 <ais523> anyway, I'm very busy in RL
20:59:28 <ais523> I've been very ill since Wednesday afternoon
20:59:32 <ehird> For values of trial copy equal to pirate.
20:59:41 <ais523> and haven't been able to do anything really, RL work or anything else
20:59:43 <ehird> What values of "very ill" are we talking?
21:03:00 <ehird> I'll take that as "high ones".
21:03:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:03:33 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:03:42 <ehird> Or perhaps "IRC problems".
21:11:02 -!- alex89ru has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:11:53 -!- ais523__ has joined.
21:12:04 -!- ais523__ has changed nick to ais523_.
21:12:14 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.).
21:12:16 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
21:25:06 <oklopol> i like being sick, but i never am
21:25:09 <oklopol> well, i also hate being sick
21:28:33 <fizzie> oklopol: I'm sure they have some sort of pills to make you sick by now. Shouldn't be all that difficult.
21:30:08 -!- ais523_ has joined.
21:31:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Connection timed out).
21:32:09 <ehird> As you may have guessed, the wireless internet here is being really
21:32:10 <ehird> temperamental at the moment; I'm only getting a few seconds of
21:32:10 <ehird> connectivity every few tens of minutes. So I'm writing this in an email,
21:32:12 <ehird> and I'll set my mail client to send it to you the next moment I get a
21:32:18 <ehird> ais523's connection is fucked up so he has to use batch mode communication.
21:33:50 -!- ais523_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:33:56 -!- ais523__ has joined.
21:35:18 <ehird> ais523__: are you reading this?
21:35:23 <ehird> I sent off a batch email summary.
21:35:31 <ais523__> not sure if you'll get my reply
21:35:40 <ais523__> but this connection's been stable for over a minute, possibly a record
21:35:44 -!- ais523__ has changed nick to ais532.
21:35:46 -!- ais532 has changed nick to ais523.
21:36:06 <ais523> lifting the laptop a metre off the floor seems to help
21:36:29 <ais523> and got your batch summary
21:37:26 <fizzie> Maybe you should switch to carrier pigeons, they sound more reliable.
21:39:10 -!- X-Scale has left (?).
21:43:14 <fizzie> I've always wanted to build a http://ronja.twibright.com/ (there's just something attractive about the idea) but I don't know anyone who'd live line-of-sight-nearby enough.
21:43:39 <ehird> ais523: Your connection still ticking?
21:45:21 <ehird> I will take that as a "no".
21:45:24 <ehird> AnMaster: His connection is b0rked.
21:45:37 <ehird> He's also been ill since wednesday.
21:45:39 <ehird> Try email if you need to tell him anything.
21:46:05 <AnMaster> ehird, no was just going to chat aimlessly
21:46:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:50:34 <psygnisf_> ehird, since you think monads are so trivial, you explain them to me
21:50:45 <ehird> a is a type taking one argument
21:50:47 <ehird> return :: a -> m a
21:50:58 <ehird> bind :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
21:53:21 <ehird> there's additional constraints:
21:54:01 <ehird> bind m (\x -> bind (f x) g)
21:54:46 <oklopol> yeah psygnisf_ behold the axioms of monads
21:55:00 <ehird> the type sigs are the axioms.
21:55:05 <ehird> the constraints are the laws.
21:55:20 <psygnisf_> so return for monads is the id function
21:55:35 <ehird> return :: a -> m a
21:55:41 <ehird> bind :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
21:55:51 <ehird> return gets the unwrapped value of m
21:55:54 <ehird> and wraps it again
21:55:59 <ehird> thus, (bind m return) must = m
21:58:28 * SimonRC finds it clearer with let x >>= f = bind f x
21:58:46 <ehird> I was just avoiding the symbolzz
21:59:28 <SimonRC> Oddly, IO have just been learning about comonads. They are some of the things that look like you could make into a monad but turn out not to work really.
22:00:05 -!- ais523_ has joined.
22:00:20 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:00:21 <ais523_> yay, it actually stayed connected long enough for me to join the channel
22:00:25 <ais523_> and even see ehird say hi!
22:00:38 <SimonRC> comonads are like bizarro-monads
22:01:13 <SimonRC> instead of having (a -> m a) and (m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b) as operations...
22:01:15 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
22:01:24 <ehird> ais523_: still thar?
22:01:36 -!- psygnisf_ has joined.
22:01:42 <SimonRC> they have (w a -> a) and ... erm...
22:01:51 <ais523_> fizzie: I agree, carrier pigeons would be more reliable, if slower on average
22:02:04 <SimonRC> ... w a -> (w a -> b) -> w b
22:02:04 <ais523_> SimonRC: looks a bit like a backwards monad
22:02:15 <psygnisf_> ehird if you said something after i mentioned binding m being id, i didnt get it
22:02:20 <SimonRC> ais523_: hence me saying they are bizarro-monads
22:02:22 <Slereah2> ais523_ : Well, carrier pigeons could be faster
22:02:29 <ehird> psygnisf_: read the logs
22:02:43 <Slereah2> Like if a carrier pigeon carried an 8GB flash drive
22:02:51 <SimonRC> where for monads you can't easily "get things out of" them, for comands you can't easily "get things into" them
22:03:28 <SimonRC> there is no general function for (Comonad w) => a -> w a
22:03:36 <Deewiant> What kinds of things are comonads
22:03:47 <Deewiant> That is to say, do you have examples of them
22:03:47 <SimonRC> analogous to there being no general function for (Monad m) => m a -> a
22:04:29 <SimonRC> Deewiant: try here http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2004/hsce/index.html
22:05:03 <ehird> "Yes, I am aware that this is an unlikely scenario."
22:05:28 <SimonRC> I am beginning to see how Data.InfiniteTree qualifies
22:06:12 <Deewiant> Okay, now is there a use case for these :-P
22:06:59 <SimonRC> maybe the idea is if you find yourself writing repetative code a lot, you might be able to spot that you need a comonad
22:07:24 <Deewiant> I'm having trouble thinking of use cases for those types
22:10:13 <SimonRC> I am asking about this on #haskell
22:12:02 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
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22:17:28 <psygnisf_> what i _dont_ get is.. wtf do i do with this shit
22:17:46 <ehird> wait, lemme type th is out
22:17:51 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:18:15 -!- MigoMipo has left (?).
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22:19:43 <psygnisf_> its more that ive never seen any explanation of wtf good monad's are. the form is trivial. bind just unwraps a value and applies a function that wraps it back up
22:20:06 -!- kar8nga has joined.
22:20:29 <ehird> psygnisf_: http://pastie.org/private/5dk2ijnlme4ikoghy5h0bw
22:20:32 <ehird> that's an IO monad
22:20:38 <ehird> there are more "theoretical" monads
22:20:44 <ehird> but that will get you pure IO in your lang
22:20:52 <ehird> another way is to build up a bind tree as the main value
22:20:58 <ehird> and recurse through it
22:21:00 <ehird> performing the actions
22:22:28 -!- ais523_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:22:53 <ehird> psygnisf_: basically, what a monad gives you there
22:22:56 <ehird> is that IO stuff can't "escape"
22:23:03 <ehird> you can't put IO into a function that doesn't return an IO value
22:23:09 <ehird> due to the types of bind
22:23:14 <ehird> there's no way to go from (m a) to a
22:23:22 <ehird> if you have global variables
22:23:28 <ehird> but that's not purely functional any more either.
22:24:07 <psygnisf_> there are no real variables as such
22:24:13 <oklopol> ehird enjoys his warm monad pie
22:24:24 <ehird> psygnisf_: as long as you can't mutate global shit, IO is safe.
22:24:27 <psygnisf_> i enjoy ehirds warm monad pie too ;D
22:25:00 <psygnisf_> i mean, the language is a rewriting system, so its inherently nothing but state
22:25:32 <psygnisf_> at the same time, its just a rewrite system, so there are no variables in the normal sense that we think of variables, etc.
22:25:52 <psygnisf_> and theres certainly no mutation of those variables.
22:26:49 <oklopol> don't you just love it when you make a program that only has half an ass, and you hand it out as the course project
22:26:59 <oklopol> and then the prof sends you an email telling you how great you did in the exam
22:27:02 <psygnisf_> also, ehird, i dont know wtf that pastie is telling me
22:27:11 <oklopol> and says he's waiting eagerly to see how great my project was.
22:27:20 <ehird> i think psygnisf_'s main problem is that he doesn't understand english
22:27:31 <oklopol> psygnisf_: that you should use it wisely
22:27:43 <psygnisf_> i understand english fine. you're just not explaining anything :P
22:27:55 <psygnisf_> i need to see process to understand these things
22:28:11 <ehird> you asked a question, I answered it, shrug.
22:28:11 <psygnisf_> i need to see what the hell is going on as this thing is used to understand what it actually does
22:28:22 <ehird> it would help if your questions made sense
22:28:24 <psygnisf_> you answered it in a way that makes no sense, which amounts to not answering it at all.
22:28:41 <ehird> makes sense to me, ymmw
22:28:55 <psygnisf_> yes but you understand monads already
22:33:52 <psygnisf_> i dont know. i dont think i can properly comprehend monads nevermind use them in this language.
22:34:04 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:34:14 <oklopol> i'm feeling extremely insane atm
22:34:26 <psygnisf_> i might just use impure IO stuff. i dont think it'd matter all that much, really.
22:34:37 <psygnisf_> oklopol: you're ALWAYS extremely insane
22:34:40 <ehird> is it lazily evaluate, psygnisf_?
22:34:43 <ehird> if so, don't even bother
22:34:57 <ehird> psygnisf_: then impure functions won't work
22:35:02 -!- jix has joined.
22:35:29 <psygnisf_> well, i was thinking that IO stuff would force evaluation in the appropriate fashion.
22:35:42 <oklopol> psygnisf_: you can probably come up with semantics just as good as monads, maybe even essentially the same ones, just go for it.
22:35:58 <ehird> BELIEVE IN YOURESLF
22:36:00 <psygnisf_> i dont know how to go about that, oklopol.
22:36:18 <ehird> use your thinking machine.
22:36:20 <oklopol> psygnisf_: impure + solve problems if they occur.
22:36:54 <oklopol> you could do like oklotalk, and evaluate lazily what (probably) has no side-effects :-)
22:37:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
22:37:43 <ehird> I actually have semantics that let you have a 100% lazy, 100% impure system.
22:37:48 <ehird> They involve seeing. I've told oklopol about them
22:37:54 <psygnisf_> if i understoof monads i might be able to do something. but.. nobody explains monads adequately to me.
22:38:02 <oklopol> to see is to necessitate........
22:38:02 <ehird> It also means that pure equivalent programs can differ...
22:38:06 <psygnisf_> all i get is a bunch of "here are your axioms kthxbye"
22:38:09 <ehird> psygnisf_: ITYM "I don't understand them"
22:38:14 <ehird> Not our fault; your problem.
22:38:39 <psygnisf_> stop being a defensive little cunt
22:39:01 <ehird> "nobody explains monads adequately to me."
22:39:23 <psygnisf_> its not "its your FAULT i dont get monads!"
22:39:26 <ehird> i never said it was blame.
22:39:43 <oklopol> it's my fault, i broke the vase
22:40:02 <oklopol> i think i should do some tunstall encoding now
22:40:34 <ehird> whoa you're coding nao?
22:40:38 <oklopol> because clearly this ircing stuff isn't working.
22:41:07 <oklopol> haha LOL kinda like *programming* but then well i guess it's not lol :DDDD
22:44:39 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
22:47:35 <fizzie> My first association to "carrier pigeons could be faster" was "unholy scramjet-equipped cyborg-pigeons, an abomination against nature" and not "normal pigeons carrying flash drives".
22:47:53 <ehird> fizzie: your mind is awesome.
22:48:06 <fizzie> I'm not sure if that's the word.
22:48:33 <ais523> why would scramjet-equipped cyborg-pigeons necessarily be an abomination against nature?
22:48:45 <ais523> they could have evolved, you know...
22:48:46 <ehird> ais523: I think asking that question makes you an abomination against nature.
22:49:06 <olsner> psygnisf_: don't worry about understanding them, start by just *using* them and understanding will appear
22:49:17 <ehird> olsner: he's trying to write a language.
22:49:25 <ehird> that is lazy. and IO.
22:49:47 <olsner> trying to write haskell? but that's already been written!
22:49:54 <ehird> it uses rewriting.
22:50:21 <olsner> understanding is over-rated anyways
22:50:25 <oklopol> fizzie: i was thinking painting pigeons black or white to encode 1/0.
22:50:43 <olsner> just breed them in two colors
22:50:43 <Deewiant> ais523: I think 'cyborg' implies 'not natural'
22:50:45 <ehird> oklopol: brilliant
22:50:48 <ehird> make them spotted.
22:51:08 <olsner> or use three colors, and encode in balanced ternary
22:51:34 <olsner> approx. half a bit extra per pidgeon!
22:51:35 <oklopol> well, quantum pigeons. no question about it.
22:51:52 <ehird> fizzie: I'm still laughing
22:52:48 <oklopol> there is no room for understanding in exact sciences.
22:53:09 <oklopol> which hacking undoubtedly is (unlike programming)
22:56:48 <ehird> kerlo's name is steve
22:57:09 <kerlo> ehird, you're just jumping to conclusions.
22:57:24 <kerlo> I'm using a computer that used to belong to someone named Steve.
22:59:34 <olsner> kerlo killed steve and stole his computer
23:00:07 <kerlo> No, Steve is still alive. Killing him may still have been an effective way of receiving his computer, though.
23:01:02 <olsner> you're obviously in chock after killing steve, imagining him to still be alive
23:01:15 <olsner> and if you deny it you're in denial!
23:01:37 <SimonRC> ow ... head ... going ... to ... explode ... from ... comonads
23:07:40 <ais523> * SimonRC eats pizza <kerlo> That's a shame
23:07:46 <ais523> a nice juxtaposition there
23:09:13 <oklopol> guess you could do comb-on ads
23:09:36 -!- ais523 has quit ("going home").
23:13:42 -!- X-Scale has joined.
23:30:15 <oklopol> X-Scale: i always read your nick as an action
23:30:25 * oklopol checks how similar it actually is
23:32:59 <AnMaster> and way too much to read above
23:33:39 <oklopol> if you know what song that was
23:35:21 <kerlo> I'll sing a song, too!
23:35:29 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaxxxxxxxxxxx
23:42:41 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:49:02 <oerjan> 11:57:31 <ehird> as in, he's going to the bus.
23:49:02 <oerjan> 11:57:34 <ehird> to go home.
23:49:08 <oerjan> actually, away from home
23:49:40 <ehird> what does the bus do, then
23:50:00 <oerjan> home -> town, then later town -> home
23:50:14 <ehird> ... town is open at this time?
23:50:15 <oerjan> well, approximately. there's also a small walk involved :D
23:51:15 <oerjan> town ~= city center, in this usage
23:51:24 <oerjan> i guess "downtown" is more accurate
23:52:15 <oerjan> also, my day schedule is completely chaotic, in case anyone hadn't noticed
23:55:47 <oerjan> <FireFly> Does complex numbers' square roots also always have two roots? (as with real ones)
23:55:58 <oerjan> as Slereah2 said, except for zero.
23:56:20 <oklopol> i fought myself so hard not to make that useless addition :P
23:57:13 * oerjan swats Slereah2 -----###
23:57:16 <oklopol> also, you know, DID YOU KNOW YOU CAN GENERALIZE THAT FOR NTH ROOTS.
23:58:02 <oklopol> i mean i almost said that.
23:58:11 <oklopol> but maybe you understood that.
23:58:36 <Slereah2> oklopol : nth root has n results
23:58:39 <oerjan> basically, x^n = y^n <=> (x/y)^n = 1, which means everything non-zero has exactly has many roots as 1 has
23:58:57 <Slereah2> Each one being a rotation of 2pi/n in the complex plane
23:59:26 <oklopol> Slereah2: exactly, that's the trivial useless thing i managed not to tell firefly.