00:00:14 When does the fungot bf interpreter terminate? E.g. if I put it in an infinite loop printing something? 00:00:15 impomatic: you could ask him to move two seats from mine. it's just werid that it never returned in the first place 00:00:40 impomatic: iirc it's pretty robust 00:00:44 impomatic: after $lot instructions? 00:00:48 ^bf +[>+] 00:00:56 ^bf +[.>+] 00:00:56 ... 00:00:59 ... 00:01:02 It's not meant to break. 00:01:06 fizzie: 00:01:18 impomatic: fungot is written in befunge 00:01:19 ehird: basically lots of spaces there.) 00:01:20 Didn't it replace chars <31 with dots? 00:01:21 impomatic: well i think it also stops after a number of characters 00:01:28 impomatic: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 00:01:29 ehird: or is it new zealand... do you do if you keep using the module system command processor chapters. 00:02:30 FireFly: not all of them, just LF and CR iirc, it was changed so it could do emotes and stuff 00:02:37 Ah 00:02:47 ^bf +[.+] 00:02:48 .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ... 00:02:57 00:03 CTCP-query unknown( ..) from fungot 00:02:58 ehird: bad things happen when 2 year olds realize " wow. i have moral fiber. 00:02:58 :-D 00:03:02 hahahahah 00:03:04 [01:02:47] Channel CTCP .. request from fungot [n=fungot@momus.zem.fi] (.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...), ignored (unrecognized) 00:03:05 FireFly: i'll blame them regardless. :-p i just feel optimistic in general. 00:03:15 FireFly: but the channel censors some others 00:03:28 a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page; h) ehird: bad things happen when 2 year olds realize " wow. i have moral fiber. FireFly: i'll blame them regardless. :-p i just feel optimistic in general. 00:03:29 ehird: so...if i were to use cps to do any key input without actually matching the keycodes 00:03:31 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page; h) ehird: bad things happen when 2 year olds realize " wow. i have moral fiber. FireFly: i'll blame them regardless. :-p i just feel optimistic in general.. 00:03:38 :> 00:03:55 o 00:04:24 Yes, the interpreter stops after aaaaaa***** instructions. ("Instructions" here means bytecode instructions, so +++++ counts as a single instruction.) 00:04:50 (And it also terminates after 88+:* output characters.) 00:05:07 People can't read befunge numbers, fizzie :P 00:05:13 16*16? 00:05:18 Well, 10^6 and 256, then. 00:06:05 ehird: sure we can, with a little thought. 00:06:56 What's 'a'? 00:07:04 10. 00:07:08 a-f push 10-16. 00:07:09 Ah 00:07:16 *-15 00:07:18 I didnẗ know there were a hex addition 00:07:33 Just knew of 0-9 00:07:37 Comes in Funge-98; doesn't exist in Befunge-93. 00:08:01 Although I've seen at least one "mostly Befunge-93" interpreter that did a-f (and the single-shot string-mode ') as an extension. 00:09:05 <> #" 91+6*:,2+,84*:,:3+,84*2+,>:#,_84*2+,@" is my most creative creation in Befunge so far 00:09:16 wuz dat do 00:09:19 quine 00:09:29 By parsing the stuff inside the string as code 00:09:37 After pushing it to the mem as a string 00:09:43 mm right 00:09:45 The string-mode feature makes it pretty well-suited for quines. 00:09:52 Yep, combined with # 00:10:15 is # a bouncal 00:10:26 It jumps over the next command 00:10:29 oh. 00:10:42 so yes, but a different kind than i thought. 00:10:46 So I basicly jump over the " that enters string-mode 00:10:56 that's the great thing about inventing your own words 00:11:02 if you're wrong, no one will know 00:11:02 The underload interpreter termination condition is even more arbitrary, since it's ffaa***, so 225000. Not sure why. Since it counts Underload commands, it's easy to get a rather slow Underload program by just ":*"ing up two strings that are close to half of the stack size limit, then looping with (~:^):^. 00:11:44 oklopol: a suparene observation 00:12:02 oerjan: lol i almost googled that. 00:12:14 It doesn't contain "gold" at least 00:12:22 fizzie: better arbitrary than base 10 00:12:52 okay math time ---> 00:24:01 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:25:16 By the way, from 2003-01-something to 2008-10-31, 786499 lines were said here. 00:25:21 800k. Not really that many... 00:25:46 It'd take 9 straight days to read the logs, assuming 1line/sec 00:26:05 so probably like nearing a month to read them all if you allocated a bit of your day to it 00:27:08 Time is valuable 00:29:37 -!- FireFly has quit ("zzzzz"). 00:30:12 * oerjan is slightly startled by his watch 00:30:29 wut 00:30:31 it has day names in both english and german 00:30:45 Time flies like an arrow, FireFly's a banana 00:30:58 normally it's in english, but for a brief time each night it goes by the german one 00:31:06 so currently it reads "DIE" :D 00:31:29 (well, abbreviated to 3 letters) 00:31:59 lamente: a burning banana? 00:32:11 my watch is like that- 00:32:24 it has english and spanish, spanish is what's normally on 00:32:35 is yours a citizen? 00:32:49 Lorus, it says 00:34:13 er, a russian in canada, with his watch set to spanish? 00:34:25 lamente is a polyglot 00:34:35 lamente do you know toki pona or is that someone else 00:36:35 lamente 00:37:16 yes 00:37:25 i am that someone else 00:37:34 lamente how do you say "segmentation fault" in toki pona :P 00:37:47 "pakala" 00:37:53 ...really? 00:37:55 yes 00:37:56 I was expecting "you can't". 00:38:03 What does pakala literally mean? 00:38:14 the creator of toki pona was in #linguistics today, actually 00:38:27 it means "Bugger up" 00:38:38 haha 00:38:53 lamente: I take it that applies to all error? 00:39:06 yes. 00:39:09 :-D 00:39:37 I should learn toki pona. 00:39:40 It'd be fun. 00:48:41 lamente: So I take it technical discussion in toki pona is near-impossibl 00:48:42 e 00:50:04 yes! 00:50:53 I take it this is a feature 00:51:14 Maybe someone should design a toki pona programming language. The only error message is "pakala" 00:51:44 the name alone tells us it's intended for pacific paradise islands without modern technology. 00:52:42 Some paradise. 00:52:55 pakala, tu ala, nasa jan! (note, I know none of the grammar, so I put them in a random vaguely english-like order) 00:56:59 lamente: Doesn't toki pona kind of rely on the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis being strongly true? 00:58:36 strongly true, or maybe strongly false, something like that 00:59:50 lamente: how strongly false? It's meant to change how you think. 01:00:07 ehird: is it? 01:00:20 It can become a sort of "yoga for the mind". Instead of getting caught in negative thoughts and anxiety, you learn to relax, meditate and explore your relationship to life itself. 01:00:26 Training your mind to think in Toki Pona can lead to many deeper insights about yourself or the world around you. 01:00:28 etc 01:00:30 what the fuck? 01:00:41 did sonja write that? 01:01:33 yes 01:01:37 http://www.tokipona.org/intro.html 01:01:42 section Wisdom and True Meaning 01:01:52 that's horrible 01:02:05 it's certainly bullshit 01:02:07 but then sonja is a profoundly fucked up individual 01:02:11 haha 01:02:12 how 01:02:31 she wrote that, for one! 01:02:41 for other...? 01:02:42 :p 01:07:00 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:17:46 oklopol: ping 01:26:47 oklopol: ping 01:27:51 lamente: More bullshit: "medical benefits" http://www.tokipona.org/ponasijelo.html 01:29:06 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:29:12 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:29:31 ^bf ++++[<+++++<+++<++<+<++[>]<-]<-<-<<<-<<+++++[>+++++<-]>[>+>[++++>][<]>-]>>.---.>..>.<<<.>>>>.<.+++.<.<-.<+. 01:29:32 hello world! 01:31:01 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 01:31:58 oko! 01:32:31 oklopol: ping 01:32:31 means eye in toki pona 01:32:42 toki pona! 01:33:22 means good language in toki pona 01:37:59 kerlo! 01:38:17 ek, orl? 01:38:31 means olrek in not backwards ese. 01:38:40 I guess my Translation-Creds have run out. 01:41:17 so what does kerlo mean in lojban? 01:41:22 Ear. 01:41:26 ah 01:42:00 It's a metaphor. Maybe. :-P 01:42:02 heh 01:42:07 my name means table 01:42:20 well, Asztal's name. 01:42:36 in lojban? 01:42:46 Hungarian 01:56:25 theres this language, armenian, written with a funky alphabet, and one joke about the written language is that it looks like hu muh umun unuuu mumuhu mukum unum utuh mumhumuhum 01:56:31 because, well.. it does, a lot. 01:56:52 i've suggested in #isharia that someone make an eso conlang that looks like that when romanized 01:57:14 uh huh. 01:57:34 everything is hmnu or some other similar stuff 01:57:53 hm 01:58:01 i wonder if we could make similar analogies here 01:58:09 maybe an esolang that mocks lisp 01:58:20 everything literally is ()))((())()))(()) 01:58:21 that'th not very nithe 01:58:33 i think that has been done 01:58:52 has it? 01:59:00 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brackets 01:59:07 ok not exactly the same 01:59:34 ack 01:59:40 not even close 01:59:44 too much extra 01:59:48 <>(()[Brackets])<()0)}())[)()0))(]])1) 01:59:48 <>>([)0)>[0]{(]()2)()))([)0))([])1)(]])2) 01:59:51 look at that code 02:00:00 do yo see that? that is way too comprehensible! :| 02:00:13 why, i can practically read that! 02:00:32 must be your linguist training 02:00:38 :P 02:02:33 hm there should be something closer but i don't know how to search for it 02:19:48 ehird: pong 02:36:50 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:49:26 oklopol! :d 02:49:27 :D 02:51:55 -!- lamente has changed nick to lament. 03:42:53 -!- Kinjet has joined. 03:43:17 -!- Kinjet has left (?). 03:43:47 historyofspam? 03:43:48 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:44:00 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:35:47 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 05:36:00 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 06:42:48 a while ago we were talking about fastly implementing brainfuck, specifically bounds checking on the tap 06:43:36 the best way is probably to just mmap 2 gb and put a gaurd page on either end 06:43:38 and you're done 06:43:52 no stupid reallocing or anything 06:44:06 you mean 06:44:16 brainfuck memory checking is O(1) for sufficiently large values of 1 06:44:28 what do you mean? 06:51:43 ... 06:55:30 fine 06:56:23 -!- olsner has joined. 07:00:26 -!- impomatic has joined. 07:20:22 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 07:22:48 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:22:54 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:33:08 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:33:26 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:34:16 -!- cherez has joined. 07:34:32 -!- cherez has quit (Client Quit). 07:35:15 -!- cherez has joined. 07:35:27 -!- cherez has left (?). 07:42:48 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:43:01 -!- ehird has joined. 07:45:58 -!- mtve has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:09:36 -!- jix has joined. 08:26:04 Anyone know a good parser generator/library for python? 08:26:51 PLY? 08:27:51 Parsec 08:31:07 PLY seems interesting... couldn't find Parsec >_> 08:34:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 08:54:56 -!- NerdyChic has joined. 08:56:27 -!- NerdyChic has left (?). 08:58:52 interesting 08:59:38 using bsearch() is slower than a simple linear search with "stop if passed the value we searched for" in certain cases. 08:59:55 * AnMaster wonders about a custom binary search instead 09:01:07 (and yes I did large tests and plotted the results) 09:02:40 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:02:47 -!- puzzlet has joined. 09:23:58 for custom the difference is so small in this case that the mean of 500 runs varies less than 0.00001 between custom binary search and the linear search. Heh. 09:30:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:35:36 ais523, hi 09:36:01 I was testing the best way to search for fingerprint to load, and a linear search is faster than bsearch() for some reason. 09:36:09 hi 09:36:15 A custom binary search is just about as fast as a linear search 09:37:49 ais523, any idea why? 09:38:03 AnMaster: you're on a small array 09:38:18 binary is only faster than linear if you have a lot of elements 09:38:21 30 entries 09:38:25 hm 09:38:30 simple algorithms tend to be faster on small numbers of entries no matter what their computational class 09:38:38 hm ok 09:38:38 in this case, lsearching 30 entries is trivial for a computer 09:38:51 bsearching involves lots of complicated comparisons and looping and out-of-order memory accesses 09:38:56 ais523, the array stride is quite large 09:39:02 if you had 100000 fingerprints, the bsearch would probably be faster 09:39:32 array stride = 48 bytes 09:39:40 since I'm searching an array of structs 09:39:46 based on the first field in the struct 09:40:07 ais523, hm 09:41:00 ais523, I guess maybe cache matters too? 09:41:17 possibly, but that's unlikely to be the reason 09:41:28 hm 09:41:29 right 09:41:56 well, the way Mike Riley is going, I guess bsearch will be faster soon ;) 09:43:38 heh 09:44:13 Deewiant, mycology doesn't test 3DSP right? 09:44:36 because cfunge implements that one 09:44:48 and if mycology doesn't test it, ccbi doesn't implement it 09:44:56 most likely 09:45:11 or wait, does it? 09:45:26 _3dsp.d, yet I can't find it when grepping mycology 09:45:41 huh 09:46:10 which one is 3DSP? 09:46:47 "3D space manipulation extension" is the official name, but actually it is FPSP-style matrix operatiosn 09:46:49 operations* 09:46:53 and vectors 09:47:03 ah, interesting 09:47:21 you know, I'm slightly scared at all the "useful" operations that Befunge is accumulating... 09:47:21 dot product or vector, matrix translation and so on 09:47:36 ais523, that is mostly due to RC/Funge I'm afraid 09:47:40 and half of them are insane 09:47:47 like malloc() stuff for funge and what not 09:48:17 most of them I'm never going to implement. 09:49:27 I don't get xkcd today... 09:51:44 Finally I'm in first place on something :-) http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?google#Brainfuck 09:52:03 impomatic: ah, I remember anagold 09:52:05 *anagolf 09:52:11 I used to play it a lot, but haven't checked in recently 09:52:51 bf size = 114 09:52:59 befunge size = 26 09:53:01 heh 09:53:16 AnMaster: Befunge has loads more commands and also string literals, it's easily going to win in a problem like that 09:53:21 yes 09:53:31 bash and awk = 25 09:54:03 python = 25 too 09:54:03 bash is a special one, because it allows you to call out to external programs 09:54:09 perl = 17 09:54:10 whereas most of the others don't by default 09:54:18 ais523, it says "exec denied" 09:54:21 yes 09:54:23 isn't that true for bash too? 09:54:25 bash always has exec allowed, though 09:54:30 strange 09:54:30 no matter what the global setting 09:54:33 pure bash is fun 09:54:47 GolfScript == 14?! 09:56:41 GolfScript is an esolang specifically designed to give small programs 09:56:51 ais523, do you get xkcd today? 09:56:56 although I think it's beatable with a newly designed language, it beats everything else on anagolf's list hollow 09:57:00 AnMaster: I don't read xkcd 09:57:17 what is "Mind of Mencia" 09:57:57 hm... seems like a humor program according to wikipedia. Then xkcd make even less sense 10:08:09 ais523, unusually mad concept: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_fountain 10:09:28 AnMaster: OK, that's very clever, but insane 10:09:35 exactly 10:09:43 especially as it might lead to the destruction of the surrounding countryside, or possibly the entire Earth, if the power supply failed 10:10:11 ais523, and I think it would need enormous amount of energy... 10:10:16 ah yes 10:10:30 Wikipedia thinks it wouldn't survive re-entry, though, so you would only have a minor disaster on your hands 10:11:18 incidentally, I just received an email saying "door controllers not working" 10:11:24 but it was the internal doors this time for a change 10:11:42 also would transporting people in that work? I mean the G force would be rather huge wouldn't it? 10:11:56 ais523, so you can't get in? 10:12:01 AnMaster: no, I am in 10:12:07 um 10:12:09 I'm not entirely convinced that I could get back out again 10:12:09 can't get out? 10:12:12 but I may try later today 10:12:13 ouch 10:12:14 I haven't checked yet 10:12:24 the doors are generally quite good at opening from the inside, though 10:12:27 ah 10:12:47 ais523, space elevator though, that sounds quite sane nowdays 10:13:23 compared to the fountain 10:13:28 I think they're both insane, personally 10:13:47 ais523, possibly 10:14:11 ais523, would someone have thought the space shuttle insane back in 1850? 10:14:23 again probably 10:14:31 but then, some people think the space shuttle insane even in 2009 10:15:15 well, from an environmental viewpoint the whole rocket launch concept is insane... 10:15:20 yes 10:15:40 in that case a space elevator would actually be sane :D 10:15:45 hmm... maybe not, I reckon most rocket fuels could be derivable from renewable sources in theory 10:16:36 ais523, what about emissions? 10:17:01 AnMaster: well, CO2 would be removed from the atmosphere as the fuels were made 10:17:16 water vapour is unlikely to be much of a problem, it can cause global warming but most of it won't be at the right height 10:17:22 nitrous oxides might be problematic 10:17:29 hm 10:17:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launch_loop 10:17:36 :D 10:18:48 ais523, what about that one? 10:18:54 also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_ring 10:18:55 reading it now 10:30:39 ais523, so what do you think? 10:31:01 AnMaster: I think that they're probably less insane than space elevators 10:31:08 but still, I'm not entirely sure they'll be relevant any time soon 10:31:14 we just don't have high-volume space traffic yet 10:31:16 true 10:31:31 ais523, well that is maybe because of the costs? 10:31:47 could be 10:32:06 but I think we need to solve the environment issues first instead 12:44:33 -!- ais523 has quit ("lunch"). 13:16:22 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:22:26 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:33:02 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:33:06 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:01:05 oklopol: learn APL. trust me: http://se.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xAKttWgP4 14:01:55 ehird, se.? why? 14:02:02 because the reddit link was se. 14:02:11 AnMaster: when did ais523 part 14:02:22 ah... 14:02:24 13:44:33 14:02:24 about an hour ago 14:02:25 ... 14:02:27 for lunch 14:02:32 okay 14:02:35 well you have scrollback 14:02:36 ;P 14:02:59 except I was in #haskell overnight 14:03:12 so when the bouncer spewed the backlog at me, it crashed my poor client because #haskell is really fucking active 14:03:18 well, froze it up. 14:03:24 so I'd have to open the logfile. 14:04:40 I was testing the best way to search for fingerprint to load 14:04:47 Does it occur to you that that is not your bottleneck? 14:04:57 was watching that video... 14:05:01 APL is insane :D 14:05:19 also awesome. 14:05:24 true 14:05:26 ehird, also how comes your client froze from it? 14:05:33 I mean, sounds like a poorly designed one 14:05:39 AnMaster: because #haskell is really damn active (it's hard to keep up with) 14:05:43 and I was offline for many hours 14:05:50 and the bouncer doesn't do delays 14:05:53 it just shoots it 14:06:12 AnMaster: for example 14:06:13 I'm also in #haskell, and ##linux, and #gentoo, all very active. And lots of other channels. When I reconnect the client is kind of slow for about 5 seconds or so 14:06:25 when left over night 14:06:26 haskell logs are 500KB on average 14:06:27 per day 14:06:34 ehird, yes and? I'm in there too 14:06:43 and I have been disconnected over night as well 14:06:47 so for the whole of 500KB, my client - written in Ruby, and using Cocoa... not the fastest combination - 14:06:53 gets the line 14:06:53 oh right 14:06:55 processes it 14:06:57 puts it in the log 14:07:00 well my client is written in elisp 14:07:03 and puts it in the "view of everything else" 14:07:07 at the bottom of the sceen 14:07:09 and the logging is done in bouncer 14:07:11 not in client 14:07:12 repeat for ~500KB worth of lines 14:07:16 AnMaster: umm, no shit 14:07:27 it gets the log from the server 14:07:29 and puts it in its log 14:08:38 what is "Mind of Mencia" 14:09:05 Carlos Mencia is a douchebag "comedian" that steals all his jokes and isn't funny in the slightest. At least, that's what the interwebs hivemind says. 14:09:26 ah 14:11:52 ehird, ok APL is really "wow", but the keyboard layout must be horrible 14:11:59 it's not a keyboard layout, IIRC 14:11:59 just a font 14:12:06 you type with a regular ascii keyboard and get APL instead 14:12:13 multi-key operators, I think 14:12:21 well, in modern ones 14:12:24 old ones had their own keyboard 14:12:33 also check out J and K, which are basically ascii apl 14:12:36 but they're less cool. 14:12:37 that sounds rather irritating to type, I mean somewhat like { is AltGr-7 on Swedish keyboards 14:12:43 which is irritating when coding in C 14:12:52 I think it balances out because you barely need to type. 14:12:59 ah maybe 14:13:24 http://www.dyalog.com/linux.htm Dyalog APL (used in that video) for Linux 14:13:28 I see no download linnk, though. 14:13:33 It's non-free, of course. 14:13:37 Linux License Fees 14:13:40 Developer 32 bit incl. Support & Upgrades 14:13:45 annual license fee 14:13:46 £1050 14:14:04 I can't believe APL is popular enough for that to actually be profitable :-P 14:15:28 very expensive 14:15:32 I guess not a lot buy it 14:15:51 it is like those VHDL stuff, so few buy it that the per-unit price must be very very high 14:16:19 [15:12:43] which is irritating when coding in C 14:16:23 hm.... that isn't correct... stuff is singular 14:16:25 It's stuck in my hands 14:16:31 so replace "those" 14:16:34 FireFly, um? 14:16:45 I press altgr+7 so often that I'm used t o it 14:16:47 to* 14:17:01 FireFly, well too, but it is still irritating 14:17:27 ehird, I wonder if there is any open source APL implementation 14:17:36 Probably. They probably suck too. 14:17:55 also I wonder what befunge-98 in APL would look like. Apart from that most people wouldn't be able to read it 14:17:56 The APL/J/K kind of languages seem to have something about them leading to that. 14:17:57 shrug 14:18:01 AnMaster: Concise. :p 14:18:07 I mean, heck, fungespace would be trivial 14:18:07 yeah 14:18:18 ehird, yes, but what about IO? 14:18:28 you need to read/write files 14:18:44 well... I think most APL implementations have system interface libraries 14:18:52 but you're not meant to use them 14:18:56 oh? 14:18:59 closed world style? 14:19:11 Well, most APL programmers don't make binaries. 14:19:23 The APL/J/K kind of languages seem to have something about them leading to that. <-- maybe because they seem to be write-once languages? 14:19:26 Primarily, as far as I can tell, they develop in the REPL and stuff, 14:19:30 then it's run from there 14:19:41 AnMaster: Nah, I can read that stuff to a degree 14:19:44 it's just a learning curve 14:19:56 ehird, well, and a different paradigm 14:20:02 -> learning curve 14:20:23 yes, that makes the learning curve unusually steep 14:20:52 AnMaster: http://nsl.com/papers/befunge93.htm Befunge-93 in K, with a GUI interface 14:21:04 very impressive. 14:21:05 a GUI? 14:21:09 ah 14:21:10 right 14:21:11 AnMaster: yes, you can watch the IP go around 14:21:12 and edit there 14:21:18 and it also has a console interface. 14:21:24 wonder about speed 14:21:27 AnMaster: http://nsl.com/k/befunge93.k 14:21:38 it's so short! 14:21:41 concise yes 14:21:52 that INCLUDES the gui 14:22:02 befunge-98 would of course be a bit longer, but yes very concise 14:22:03 and it's only like 2 pages of code 14:22:16 ehird, it isn't very readable though 14:22:24 do you know K? 14:22:27 no? that explains it then :P 14:22:39 I don't know a single command of that 14:22:40 But 14:22:41 W.P:80 25#,," "/ program window 14:22:42 W.P..bg:{:[_i~|P[1;2];999900;999999]}/ yellow cell is current pointer 14:22:47 it looks like some of those "lots of operators, but 1D" languages "B::"";b:{[f]if[~#B;B::0:`];r:f B;B::(#r)_ B;r}" 14:22:48 Looks pretty small 14:22:55 FireFly: hm? 14:22:56 Or, short 14:22:59 The code 14:23:00 Compact 14:23:01 ah 14:23:02 :P 14:23:06 yes 14:23:17 I don't think that has any explicit loops at all 14:23:22 most APL/J/K programs don't 14:23:39 (they use vector operations instead, since array programming language) 14:23:55 ehird, also I wonder how fast it would run game of life? as fast as jitfunge? 14:24:00 http://nsl.com/ has a bunch of other APL/J/K code btw 14:24:03 AnMaster: um... no :P 14:24:11 It'll probably be not very fast. 14:24:13 ehird, probably not as fast as cfunge either ;) 14:24:22 and cfunge is very fast at it 14:24:24 Probably around ccbi speed, I guess. 14:24:39 well... that isn't too bad 14:24:41 (The array programming language family have _very_ optimised vector operations) 14:24:47 yes indeed 14:25:00 they would have to 14:25:48 hm 14:26:09 AnMaster: here's something impressive: 14:26:23 gcc-befunge, someone should make it... (yes I realise this means me probably... and I might if I have time at some point) 14:26:26 ehird, ? 14:26:30 sec 14:26:42 "sec" is impressive? 14:26:43 ;P 14:27:02 AnMaster: shortest sudoku solver, evar, in K: 14:27:03 f:{$[&/x;,x;,/f'@[x;i;:;]'&27=x[,/p i:x?0]?!10]} 14:27:07 written by the creator of K 14:27:12 that's _really_ short 14:27:31 and a comment from him: 14:27:32 "a few more bytes with a greedy algorithm is one million times faster on some harder puzzles .. (30ms instead of 1 hour) " 14:27:34 AnMaster: OK, that's very clever, but insane <-- that comment *could* have been about APL, but in fact it was about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_fountain 14:27:48 yeah I read the logs :P 14:28:01 ehird, have you seen the sudoku solved in *.deb 14:28:04 as in the package manager 14:28:07 I think so yes 14:28:12 dpkg or apt or whatever it is 14:28:25 don't remember which part handles what 14:28:55 ehird, did he post that longer version? 14:29:06 not that I can see, it's probably on the google somewhere 14:30:06 well... lets invent AQ9+ 14:30:11 let's not :p 14:30:20 which is like HQ9+ but has s for "solve sudoku" 14:30:29 Then why A? 14:30:35 Why not SQ9+ ? 14:30:37 FireFly, because it doesn't make sense :D 14:30:41 >.> 14:30:46 SudoKu 14:30:48 SudoQ 14:30:56 hah 14:31:02 sudo ku? 14:31:02 someone make a sudoku program that only runs as root 14:31:03 and call it ku 14:31:06 grrrrrr AnMaster 14:31:09 Heh 14:31:09 stop stealing my bad jokes 14:31:10 ehird, hah I won by one second 14:31:22 for me: 14:31:22 14:31 someone make a sudoku program that only runs as root 14:31:23 14:31 sudo ku? 14:31:28 Well I won by 5 secs in thinking 14:31:32 (but it was clearly unconnected) 14:31:34 FireFly: hee 14:31:42 ehird, for me it was 15:31:01 sudo ku? 15:31:02 someone make a sudoku program that only runs as root 14:31:47 ku would of course have to be a KDE program 14:31:55 Of course 14:31:56 and yes, unconnected 14:32:05 ehird, ksu ku then? 14:32:13 There'd had to be a "Q" program, so that the KDE one is Ku 14:32:15 yes ksu exists 14:32:15 AnMaster: isn't it kdesu 14:32:21 ehird, hm? 14:32:22 and I know, you're meant to use it 14:32:22 * AnMaster checks 14:32:26 to avoid home directory stuff I think 14:32:40 oh yes it seems to be 14:32:50 I always read kdesu as "K desu" and then I read it as "K desu desu desu desu desu desu" and then I die. 14:32:59 :D 14:33:08 * AnMaster googles desu since he forgot what that meme was about 14:33:35 I think by now it's more or less completely meaningless. 14:33:35 "# A Japanese copula, or word used to grammatically link a subject and predicate. i.e. It is a Japanese verb meaning "to be"." "# An abbreviation for Delaware State University." 14:33:38 And therefore zen. 14:33:41 or the third meaning: 14:33:45 "# The nickname of Suiseiseki, a fictional character in Rozen Maiden, which is also used as a meme." 14:33:56 http://encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Desu, but the likelyhood of you clicking an ED link is approximately 0 14:34:14 ehird, safe for work? 14:34:22 Not later down the page. 14:34:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcaW_ZYWSbo 14:34:47 Looks pretty od 14:34:47 d 14:35:08 Interesting how many meanings one word can have 14:35:14 Comparing the subs to the vocals 14:35:22 haha. 14:35:47 Cavemanime: "ug ug ug ug ug ug ug ug ug" 14:36:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:00:06 FireFly: Perhaps one should study Japanese. ;) 15:00:16 Maybe 15:05:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("yay, kde 4.2!"). 15:11:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:11:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Client Quit). 15:12:15 ais523: impomatic: ah, I remember anagold <<< lul i did the same typo 15:15:18 I think I'm going to implement Underload 15:17:49 underload is fun 15:19:47 ehird: The APL/J/K kind of languages seem to have something about them leading to that. <<< maybe because they're point-free for the most part? 15:20:00 how is that related to having shitty open source implementations 15:20:02 :s 15:20:06 ohh 15:20:33 i thought you were referring to being hard to read, based on what anmaster answered 15:20:57 no wait 15:21:00 blah. 15:21:06 forget i said that or i will kill you. 15:21:18 oklopol learn apl 15:25:08 oooooooooo 15:25:13 when i'm done with my j's 15:25:29 i'm still far from good at it. 15:25:56 apl is cooler. 15:26:06 i'll watch el vid now 15:34:41 j would do that the same way, except some of the stuff like "apply to each" there can be omitted in j 15:35:19 oklopol: yeah but it looks cooler 15:35:26 because it's ap fucking l and has its own character set 15:35:28 naturally. it's weirder. 15:36:26 anyway would be so cool to be able to write j/apl that fast 15:36:32 i mean it just looks so awesome 15:36:41 i know. 15:36:59 of course i probably could if i wrote it a bit more, i haven't really tried writing anything in it, so i'm fairly slow. 15:37:29 Someone should implement Sir. Cut 15:37:39 I tried, but it didn't work out well 15:40:30 http://www.hortont.com/racarr/?p=27 15:40:30 gpu life 15:41:07 not hashlife tho 15:41:07 :< 15:43:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Life 15:44:53 'only "20 cartridges or less" of Video Life were ever made.' 15:45:01 They'd be quite valuable 15:45:08 Yes. Also quite slow :P 15:55:35 hmm 15:55:39 oklopol: i have a GoL quesitonnnnnnnnnnnnnn 15:55:51 wouldn't it be possible to be really efficient by storing the neighbour count of cells? 15:55:54 then just switching based on that 15:57:48 One still needs to store each cell's state and update the state of the surrounding cells... 15:58:02 Also, that takes up a fuckton of memory. 15:58:40 If you want to be really efficient, go with hashlife. ;) 16:00:29 ehird: you just move the problem of checking all neighbors. 16:00:58 you'd get one check for deciding next state, but you'd have to propagate the state to neighboring neighbor counts 16:01:05 back to sp -> 16:44:52 #tokipona in too many lines: 16:44:53 16:44 Potkan has joined (n=Potkan@a40-unl1-2-27.static.adsl.vol.cz) 16:44:53 16:44 Saluton. 16:44:55 16:44 toki :) 16:44:57 16:44 Good evening. 16:44:59 16:44 toki 16:45:01 16:44 coi 16:45:03 16:44 hej 16:45:05 16:44 hello 16:45:07 16:44 coi 16:45:09 16:44 saluton 16:45:11 16:44 hej 16:45:13 16:44 hello 16:45:15 Seriously. 16:45:17 They're still at it . 17:21:22 ais is sure having a long lunch... 17:23:50 indeed 17:28:50 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 17:30:05 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:42:58 GregorR: 17:47:53 "A type system powerful enough to express exactly what a function does would be quite nice." 17:47:57 Aka, a programming language. 17:48:03 (ihope 2007-07-30) 17:54:43 so i was thinking about a stack-based logic programming language 17:58:33 and i made a program snippet that solved a sudoku with it 17:58:40 and it was longer than the k thing 17:58:41 ooh 17:58:41 show 17:58:43 and i was like k. 17:58:46 showshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshow 17:59:27 well, i kinda deleted the thingie. 17:59:37 and it was fairly half-assed 17:59:39 REWRITE IT 17:59:43 :D 17:59:51 IT SOUNDS PHUN MOBILE 18:00:51 err wait 18:02:49 blah how the fuck does k do it :| 18:03:14 JUST GIMME THE KOE 18:04:23 something like this: A(1,9)@A(3,3)/adA(1,9)/adA(9,1)/ad 18:04:52 dude that's pretty um how did it work 18:04:54 basically the solving just means specifying the rules of sudoku 18:04:59 err wait 18:05:07 (i'm talked to) 18:06:01 oklopol now write it IN APL 18:07:05 so, A(1,9)@ means all elements of A are from set {1, 2.. 9} 18:07:15 neat 18:07:18 but thats not stack based 18:07:21 the rest is predefined splicings. 18:07:25 well it is. 18:07:39 just you can't really see it because i named the array. 18:08:06 don't name ANYTHING :| 18:08:45 A(3,3)/ad; (3,3)/ is a splicing that splits the axes evenly in three parts, same semantics as in oklotalk 18:09:02 ad is just alldiff, its rank is 1 18:09:09 don't name ANYTHING :| 18:09:15 (it's also an array-processing language ofc) 18:09:39 stack-based logic programming array-processing language 18:10:03 well you don't have to name it, but here it's shorter that way 18:10:09 don't name ANYTHING :| 18:10:10 s-blpa-pl 18:10:48 could just do the operations on shallow copies of A using ":" 18:10:58 and assume it's tos 18:11:03 hello lament 18:11:05 who are you? 18:12:35 hi 18:12:41 i'm a loser baby 18:12:44 so why don't you kill me 18:13:29 yeah that's a good song 18:14:56 lol 18:15:02 18:11 hello lament 18:15:03 18:11 who are you? 18:15:04 18:12 hi 18:15:06 18:12 i'm a loser baby 18:15:08 18:13 so why don't you kill me 18:15:10 18:13 yeah that's a good song 18:15:12 The best of #esoteric. 18:18:01 that's pretty depressing. 18:18:30 lament: protip: oklopol is never serious 18:18:33 even when he's serious 18:18:52 I'm always serious, even when I'm not. 18:19:13 Does that make me all that different from oklopol? 18:19:40 Maybe. 18:20:41 lament, you are an antipo[ld] 18:21:00 actually... antipo(l|de) 18:21:17 ... 18:26:05 lament: DO YOU STILL KNOW MENTAL IS AN ANAGRAMMAR OF YOUR NICK? 18:26:29 i was like "wow cool, wait old" 18:26:53 oklopol: have you noticed i was 'lamente' for a few days 18:27:01 it means 'the mind' in Spanish 18:27:14 my nick is punny 18:27:46 AUGH! 18:28:08 actually ment means mind in catalan, i wonder if the article is still 'la' 18:29:10 http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mente_(psicolog%C3%ADa) 18:29:56 yep, i think it works 18:30:01 my nick means 'the mind' in Catalan 18:32:36 ohh. 18:32:47 "actually 'ment' means..." i thought that was a typo of "meant" 18:33:28 was kinda wondering why you completely ignored what i said; now i realize it's because i was being an idiot. 18:40:49 -!- Azstal has quit (Connection timed out). 18:50:09 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:59:41 is 23 your IQ? 18:59:52 2007-08-02, on the subject of asiekierka's IQ 19:00:00 (using the nick "squazr23") 19:00:07 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:02:12 i hear these iq tests are a bunch of woodoo magic. 19:05:36 asiekierka's bot was amusing 19:05:37 A computer is a body fluid that carries food and obtaining energy and vital substances from within the body. 19:06:06 that makes sense to me 19:08:12 asiekierka: The lungs are organs used for filtering urine from the blood. 19:08:24 ehird`: Asiebot is a tree native to australia where it is the basic living substance of all the judges i've had the strangest dream... I dreamed i killed you again. 19:08:30 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:08:59 is it a markov thing or ? 19:09:07 it was just a megahal 19:09:09 i should remember :| 19:09:12 since asiekierka can't program 19:09:21 so, markov chain essentially 19:09:40 i see i see 19:10:09 o 19:10:09 o 19:10:14 asiekierka: You love ehird`. 19:10:15 * oklopol has some convobot ideas 19:11:24 asiekierka: Blood is a cell which receives and transmits electrical impulses. 19:11:27 asiekierka: Say stfu to the muzzle of a lot easier, just so long as i'm the dictator." - george w. Bush. 19:12:18 ehird`: Ehird` is not a dumb computer program that translates high level language code into machine language code. 19:12:40 12:00:57 asiebot: What is love? 19:12:40 12:01:09 asiekierka: I hate you. 19:13:12 ehird`: I guess if someone says "fuck is a limb extending from the initials of other words. 19:14:15 ehird`: Asiekierka is a sensory organ found on the head with the mzx community and pancake, and the anger from someone poking me. 19:14:26 ehird`: Asiekierka is a bony girdle in vertebrates that connects the head with the mzx community and pancake, and the anger from someone poking me. 19:15:59 A pub is a confectionery made from cocoa beans. 19:19:16 um 19:19:20 ehird, when is that from? 19:19:23 2007 19:19:26 ah 19:19:32 what sort of bot was asiebot? 19:19:35 markov? 19:19:40 megahal, so yes. 19:19:45 it was more intelligent than its owner 19:19:46 [asiekierka] 19:20:00 not that hard 19:20:30 inded 19:20:33 *indeed 19:21:06 ehird, so the bot would win in a turing test if asie was the human? 19:21:18 shrug 19:22:25 smarter != wins the turing test 19:22:38 lament, true 19:22:59 also it would be fun if the bot faked being the human 19:23:01 err 19:23:03 the reverse 19:23:04 I mean 19:23:11 the human faked being the bot 19:23:31 Why do you think the human faked being the bot? 19:23:35 would a human manage to act as incoherent as a bot? 19:23:38 that is what I wonder 19:23:46 so a kind of reverse turing test 19:23:58 lament, and I don't think the human faked, I just suggest it would be fun to try 19:24:02 Sounds interesting. Tell me more. 19:24:06 haha 19:24:21 Why do you think haha? 19:24:42 You mentioned a faked human before? Tell me more about your faked human. 19:27:05 lament, hey, running two Eliza against each other is fun, you need something to start them off though 19:29:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:31:05 I'd like to see two fungots talking to each other 19:31:06 FireFly: do you think it's good that he knows what he's talking about a real bite though. more like doing what is in the same sentence as per bothner will probably give riastradh a fish! 19:31:11 Yeah, just like that 19:31:33 FireFly, that cause an annoying endless loopi 19:31:34 loop* 19:31:39 it has happened before 19:31:40 per bothner will probably give riastradh a fish! 19:31:42 search logs 19:31:42 :D 19:31:42 Ah 19:32:17 FireFly, however after that fungot started limited number of same lines per person 19:32:17 AnMaster: i don't have scheme48, i assume 19:32:20 annoying infinite loop? seriously, two bots talking to each other = annoying infinite loop? that's just.. surprising :O 19:32:32 so it will only answer the same person 4 times in a row 19:32:39 :< 19:32:40 before ignoring until someone else speak too it 19:32:42 to* 19:32:45 however 19:32:53 a 3 bot loop is still possible 19:32:56 and annoying 19:33:43 nyt 19:35:04 oklopol, New York Times? 19:35:14 nope. 19:35:19 oklopol, then what? 19:35:25 was writing on another channel 19:35:30 and my mouse was happy 19:35:32 oh wrong tab 19:35:59 yes, accidentally clicked it open at the last few chars 19:35:59 oklopol, then it is customary to write: " 19:36:01 err... 19:36:05 /w 19:36:06 " 19:36:07 ;P 19:36:15 WHUZ DAT MEAN 19:36:19 ... 19:36:29 ever used irssi? 19:36:35 stfu 19:36:49 ehird, not saying I like irssi 19:36:59 AnMaster: yep 19:37:06 no, you think you're being funny 19:37:09 you're not 19:37:11 I'm just saying it is funny when they manage to write " /w 23" or such 19:37:20 ehird, I'm not trying to be funny 19:37:25 ooooooooooo 19:37:53 en minä nyt oikein tajua mistä puhutte, taidan jatkaa algebran tehtävien kyöntiä 19:38:10 oklopol, what does that mean? 19:38:14 And in English? 19:39:49 what's the point of writing in finnish if i just translate it right after 19:40:07 i mean what the fuck, i've been doing this exercise for 50 minutes now 19:40:13 Point taken 19:40:16 one voluntary exercise 19:40:23 Exercise? 19:40:26 What do you exercise? 19:40:42 well algebra, i'm never sure what term to use for uni schoolwork 19:40:53 we call them "demonstrations" 19:41:22 that's what the situation is called, but so are the exercises for some reason. 19:41:30 umm situation 19:41:40 i mean when you liek demonstrate them to the class and shit. 19:41:48 wellllll anyway 19:41:51 * oklopol continues 19:41:55 'ay 19:41:57 'kay* 19:42:02 But 'ay would work too 19:42:09 Or, maybe 19:42:19 does google translate handle *.fi? 19:42:46 hm yes 19:42:48 "I now I really understand what you are talking about, going to continue the algebra of kyöntiä" 19:42:56 oklopol, interesting 19:43:10 why "really"? 19:43:13 first sentence is negated 19:43:31 Just add an ! in front of it 19:43:39 oklopol, you mean it should have been "I now really doesn't understand what you are talking about"? 19:43:41 which is kinda weird. 19:43:44 why "now" then 19:43:48 AnMaster: yes exactly. 19:44:03 ok that is a major fail of google 19:44:04 AnMaster: "now i don't really understand what you're talking about..." 19:44:09 ah 19:44:10 right 19:44:15 that makes more sense 19:44:26 it's just in a different place in finnish, but almost the same construct 19:44:37 oklopol, and where is the negation bit? 19:44:49 do NOT 19:44:53 umm? right there? 19:44:55 NOT is the keyword 19:44:56 oklopol, in the original... 19:44:58 I mean 19:45:02 Ah 19:45:09 anyway, google did fail the latter part of the sentence, but so would fizzie. 19:45:19 i wasn't exactly expecting you to care what i said. 19:45:19 oklopol, why would he fail? 19:45:32 of course we care! 19:45:37 AnMaster: because "kyö" is a verb used only by vjn. 19:45:43 "kyödä" to be exact 19:45:45 oklopol, fun 19:46:12 You lost me somewhere near token 1 on row 1 19:46:18 Eg. the first word 19:46:18 it means pretty much anything, we have tons of words you need to guess from context. 19:46:25 In the finnish version 19:46:28 heh 19:46:35 at least you can understand Norwegian but Finnish is just strange... 19:46:58 language family mess up over there I'm afraid 19:47:13 isn't it closest to Japanese or something? I forgot 19:47:19 okay second attempt at the exercise; fucked up an equation there 19:47:19 Hungarian I believe it is? 19:47:31 should probably get matlab or something 19:47:32 -> 19:47:58 hung yes 19:48:18 FireFly, I think it was oklopol or fizzie that claimed that a Finnish thought a lot of foreign people thought "Noika" was Japanese 19:48:27 *nookia 19:48:28 er 19:48:30 *nokia 19:48:42 ah yes 19:48:52 Hm, maybe, I dunno 19:49:01 I always thought it was Finnish 19:49:23 whooo gcc 4.3.3 hit stable on arch linux 19:49:52 released like 4 days ago... 19:50:14 arch linux is probably the most bleeding edge distro I know 19:53:14 Brb 19:53:15 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 19:56:08 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:56:08 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:56:12 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:57:39 Spam subject line: "There is a little mess in your pants - change it to a big order." 19:57:42 What the F***?!?!?! 19:57:48 lol 19:57:54 Heh 19:58:18 by the well-ordering principle 20:04:11 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:04:57 I should look at Lojban. 20:07:55 ouch. 20:08:28 he certainly did :P 20:08:37 hi kerlo, 20:11:20 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 20:13:57 AnMaster: I always thought it was Finnish <<< probably living closer to nokia than i do, you're not exactly a prime example of a foreigner. 20:14:55 i finished the exercise! 20:15:38 -!- Judofyr has joined. 20:15:43 :| 20:15:48 where are all the immense congratulations 20:16:25 \o/' 20:16:30 Happy now? 20:17:37 what's that thing in yer hand is it a present for me 20:17:52 Well, it's a typo :D 20:17:57 You can have it for free 20:17:58 :O 20:18:02 I LOVE TYPOS! 20:18:06 Gdoo 20:22:25 AnMaster: I always thought it was Finnish <<< probably living closer to nokia than i do, you're not exactly a prime example of a foreigner. <-- eh? 20:22:36 how do you mean closer? 20:22:49 physically closer 20:22:52 nested quoting on IRC 20:22:53 :< 20:23:01 heh 20:23:08 oklopol, Stockholm is closer to any part of Finland than I am 20:23:24 AnMaster: and do i live in stockholm? 20:23:26 and I got no idea where in Finland Nokia is 20:23:39 oklopol, no but Stockholm is pretty far from Finland 20:23:48 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:24:04 i live about 150 km from stockholm, nokia is a lot farther. 20:24:31 * AnMaster opens google earth 20:24:31 so yeah i was indeed lying about you living closer than me; but the difference is not that great 20:24:44 hey 20:24:47 stop that you 20:24:51 oklopol, so what is the distance for you? 20:24:56 you might catch my bullshits. 20:25:00 AnMaster: no idea. 20:25:10 oklopol, what do you mean "your bullshits"? 20:25:16 "We apologize for the inconvenience, but Google Earth has crashed." 20:25:18 damn you 20:25:41 reproducible every time I start it 20:25:57 AnMaster: i mean i'm throwing the numbers from absolutely nowhere. 20:25:58 It'd be nice if they wrote "the Earth" 20:26:09 FireFly, eh? 20:26:23 "We're sorry, but the Earth has crashed." 20:26:32 hah 20:26:32 Like, if it'd be their fault if the world ended 20:26:43 * AnMaster installs testing version 20:28:18 AnMaster: if your seriously going to measure, i live in turku 20:28:32 oklopol, yes I am if I get google earth running 20:28:40 in case you don't know that, i've mentioned it quite a few times 20:29:20 oklopol, indeed I didn't remember the name of the city 20:29:31 well just use the mesh-current method to find the branch currents 20:29:34 oklopol, best would of course be from the correct house 20:29:47 oklopol, what? 20:29:55 well. i'm not sure i want to divulge that 20:30:05 oklopol, and your CC number of course too! 20:30:06 ;P 20:30:09 very close to campus 20:30:21 oklopol, anyway what did you mean with " well just use the mesh-current method to find the branch currents" 20:30:24 if that helps. 20:30:44 what? 20:30:52 wth were you talking about 20:30:55 AnMaster: lol just assume it's random if you don't get it :P 20:31:01 AnMaster: very close to campus, if that helps 20:31:02 i live 20:31:04 ah 20:31:06 very, very close. 20:31:43 Turku == Åbo? 20:31:47 yes 20:31:48 Google Earth thinks so 20:31:58 turku is the international name afaik 20:32:03 at least i hope it is 20:32:10 åbo is the swedish name 20:32:53 from you to Nokia about 132 km 20:33:07 that close :O 20:33:12 from you to Stockholm around 265 km 20:33:24 oklopol, by roads it may be longer 20:33:28 this is straight line 20:33:59 there's a pretty straight highway there, it's just i thought it was a lot futher down it. 20:34:02 from me to Nokia: ca 530 km 20:34:12 k. i guess a bit more then. 20:34:13 I'm not going to give the distance to any other point 20:34:20 don't want you to triangulate my position 20:34:20 ;P 20:34:23 :) 20:34:47 how far do you live from me just out of curiosity 20:34:50 actually put that marker wrong, it is more like 560 km 20:34:54 oklopol, no! 20:35:05 :o 20:35:09 almost fooled you right 20:35:15 oklopol, no I didn't 20:35:22 you* 20:35:24 and 20:35:30 I was just correcting the distance to Nokia 20:37:27 [21:35:15] oklopol, no I didn't 20:37:32 That'd been something 20:37:35 Fooling yourself 20:37:37 FireFly, typoed 20:37:38 :P 20:37:45 Yeah, I understood 20:37:51 yeah the i and you keys are right next to each other 20:50:16 yuio? 20:50:28 new word meaning you/I 20:57:18 -!- olsner has joined. 21:36:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:37:41 Have I mentioned that I've decided to refer to everyone using first-person pronouns? 21:37:47 Not that I've actually been doing so. 21:38:01 Hi, everyone. How am I doing? 21:38:20 hi. 21:40:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:42:21 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 21:54:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:55:50 -!- Corun has joined. 22:01:52 night 22:04:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 22:33:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:37:27 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 22:41:01 water vapour is unlikely to be much of a problem, it can cause global warming but most of it won't be at the right height 22:42:06 i don't _really_ know but i would imagine that the atmosphere stays pretty much saturated with water vapour, so adding more is very temporary (hydrological cycle) 22:42:34 haha you and your silly anecdotes 22:42:41 i mean, we have huge oceans precisely because you _cannot_ add most of it to the atmosphere 22:43:43 so while water vapour is the most important greenhouse gas, it's much less important for global warming because it's self-regulating 22:44:34 also, why didn't i check if ais523 was here before starting blathering :( 22:46:01 (it could still _strengthen_ global warming i think, because warming the atmosphere makes it have a higher water vapor threshold) 22:46:34 obviously this stuff has to be well-known 22:48:51 * oklopol tries to come up with something completely nonsensical, but fails miserably. 22:49:16 i can help you with that by shaving this iguana 22:49:50 haha an iguana that's like givin birth to a sevenfold quilt :D 22:50:33 yes and without the lactose too 22:51:00 also a heinous predicate 22:51:13 you know how it is with these verifiables. 22:51:37 yes heine was known for his predicates 22:51:38 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:51:41 -!- GregorR has joined. 22:56:08 so. 22:56:15 i use the word "heinous" 22:56:23 it's not all that common. 22:56:37 and i hear it in cracker a minute later 22:56:44 (tv show i don't even watch) 22:57:28 well it's not not that common, but, you know, i wasn't actually watching, i turn my head on the screen, and the guy uses it 22:57:37 it's a sign. you must now convert to tibetan buddhism and go live in a small hut at the base of mount everest. 22:58:01 wow 22:58:07 nah 22:58:09 there's a word for that 22:58:15 yes 22:58:15 i.e., you just use/find out about something 22:58:17 bam, there it is again 22:58:21 it's a special condition thing 22:58:59 synchronicity is one word for it but i guess you mean something more specific 22:59:02 yeah 22:59:03 yeah. a phenomenon i noticed when i was like 7, and heard about when someone here linked it 22:59:10 something more specific yes 22:59:15 it basically comes down to 22:59:20 no, it isn't uncommon, your brain just didn't notice it 22:59:24 because it wasn't interesting previous times 23:00:34 yeah 23:01:08 i don't recall when i last used the word, so i was very conscious when i did just now 23:02:28 but still, i did actually turn my head just before the guy used it, so there's definitely *some* magic involved (he yelled something during a lecture or something just before using it) 23:02:44 (and i was like huh whatchayellin) 23:03:15 (i still don't know what he yellin) 23:03:46 it's a law of nature. if any atheist hears about it, the evidence must be just vague enough that he can claim to explain it away. 23:04:13 * oerjan ducks 23:04:55 i had religious thoughts the other day. well more like spiritual. caffeine made me feel alive and philosophical. 23:05:19 then i proceeded reading about software engineering, and all was numb again 23:05:26 ic maybe i should drink more coffee 23:05:40 * oerjan is down to a couple cups a day 23:05:45 well caffeine, taurine and a few others 23:05:55 i don't really drink coffee anymore, it's too much work 23:05:59 oklopol: i thought you said religious people were obsolete 23:06:09 ehird: yes, i still think so :D 23:06:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("godnatt"). 23:06:25 it's a law of nature. if any atheist hears about it, the evidence must be just vague enough that he can claim to explain it away. 23:06:30 Atheism != rationalism. 23:07:21 well ok if an _irrational_ atheist hears about it, the evidence can be conclusive and he still won't believe it :D 23:07:25 ehird: my religious thoughts are usually about greater universes containing this one as a simulation; i don't actually believe in that stuff, but it just sounds so appealing i might not die when i die. 23:07:39 death is scary :( 23:07:39 because, you know, life is awesome 23:07:50 i don't want to lose conciousness. 23:07:58 i'm much less afraid of it than i was, say, at your age 23:08:19 i think it's normal for the fear to lessen with time, at least it would make sense 23:08:24 I used to not be afraid of death at all. Then I realised, you know, it was death. End of. 23:09:29 ehird: it's probably not that scary once you actually experience it ;) 23:09:50 Well, that's the thing isn't it. You can't exactly reflect on death. 23:09:59 i should get back on my electronics 23:10:09 It's just impossible to imagine not ... existing. I mean, obviously. Because existing is the only perspective you can percieve things through. 23:11:04 most definitely 23:12:08 :( 23:12:13 When you die, you forget everything and become someone else instead. 23:12:35 that doesn't sound very plausible 23:12:47 somewhat appealing of course 23:12:52 If you forget everything, whether you're you is... debatable. 23:13:16 That's why you become someone you had an especially great amount of impact on. 23:13:22 I also hate the idea of a heaven... I don't like a segregated world where you can only watch life and everyone you know is dead. 23:13:40 i'd love that 23:13:42 That's why cool people are Alcor members. 23:13:45 just watching the world 23:13:51 not being a part of it 23:14:00 i've always wanted to be like a janitor in a big building 23:14:08 and 23:14:09 you know 23:14:11 never be seen 23:14:20 just watch people from my little peepholes in the walls 23:14:21 I've always wanted to quit everything and explore the world. 23:14:52 "quit everything"? 23:14:59 Preferably an enclosed world, so that I don't have to get cold when it snows. 23:15:03 YOU MEAN LIKE YOUR IRC CLIENT 23:15:05 School, I guess. 23:15:16 I'd bring an IRC headset along! 23:15:28 Type with my jaws. It's not that difficult once you get used to it, you see. 23:16:00 if you don't die, there's no reason to let your brain feel cold. 23:16:04 *can't die 23:16:18 I can die, though. 23:16:37 oh 23:16:45 nm then 23:17:26 if i'm doing mesh current and i have a current source, umm, how the fuck does that work? :\ 23:17:32 hmm 23:17:35 ais might actually know 23:17:44 then again that's not very helpful either 23:17:58 So, transcranial brain stimulation. 23:18:15 No, not that. 23:18:20 Transcranial magnetic stimulation. 23:18:58 It blasts your brain for a while, so after you're done, that part of your brain doesn't work for a while. 23:19:12 what about it 23:19:58 And you become an autistic savant! Kind of. 23:20:03 Does that sound interesting? 23:20:06 * oklopol learned today about a condition where you can only perceive one object at a time :o 23:20:23 kerlo: definitely, i've always wanted to be an autistic savant 23:20:43 i vaguely thought magnetism had little effect on human biology 23:20:47 currently i'm just good at stuff, and not that practical. 23:20:53 that's not very extreme. 23:20:56 i mean, otherwise MRI would be dangerous 23:20:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulation 23:21:24 Good at stuff like knowing what d^2f(x,y)/dxdy means? 23:21:42 kerlo: in general. 23:22:06 i do know what that means, but that's more about knowing stuff than being good 23:22:07 oh it's rapidly changing magnetism, which is essentially electromagnetic 23:22:34 kerlo: what i mean is i'm like the square root of autistic savant, like most nerds. 23:22:58 oklopol: how would you explain it? 23:23:13 ...explain what? 23:23:20 d^2f(x,y)/dxdy. 23:23:45 i would have to tell you what i know it means. 23:23:57 explaining has little to do with math 23:24:14 Please explain it, then? 23:24:28 oklopol: he's trying to get you to do his homework 23:25:44 kerlo: umm how? 23:25:46 Yeah, since students of this class are all able to visualize things like that. 23:26:02 i mean how can i explain it without somehow telling you what it means? 23:26:15 that's impossible by definition 23:26:44 My explanation would be something like "d^2f(x,y)/dxdy is how twisty it is". 23:26:59 kerlo: what nice intuitive nonsense. 23:27:44 Useful intuitive nonsense. 23:27:50 ...or maybe it's not useful at all. 23:27:50 that's what my intuition about differentials says; but i do not know what differentials are. 23:28:33 it may be useful. but in math, you should keep intuition to yourself unless teaching. 23:28:34 -!- Corun has joined. 23:28:44 at least that's how i perceive the field 23:29:02 Should I continue trying to determine how intelligent you are compared to me? 23:29:26 kerlo: err go ahead. 23:29:31 while you're at it, answer my question 23:30:06 I don't know how possible it is to explain something without saying what it means. I don't think I asked you to do that. 23:30:41 i think you're both stupid. 23:30:43 anyway, the calculus i'm taking does not define differentials. haven't seen a definition for them, and i've heard TRWBW say they are more of an intuitive concept. 23:30:51 so i'm kinda wary. 23:31:02 ouch 23:31:03 kerlo: no, you did not. 23:31:10 * kerlo nods 23:31:22 kerlo: it was my own addition. 23:31:31 You got TRWBW to call something an intuitive concept? Wow. :-) 23:31:32 oerjan: ouch? :) 23:31:45 kerlo: it's not a matter of opinion 23:31:49 I like ehird's frankness. 23:31:56 Who is TRWBW? 23:32:05 in this case it's a matter of my lack of knowledge. 23:32:11 i don't know shit about calculus 23:32:18 ehird: a famous due 23:32:19 no definition of the differential by limits? oh well i guess they might do that in engineering courses 23:32:19 *dude 23:32:30 What 23:32:30 ? 23:32:36 oerjan: naturally there's a definition of the differential by limits 23:32:38 TRWBW is the guy in #math whose opinion is generally "mathematics is fundamentally about formal rules; therefore, most things in mathematics are generally best understood as formal rules". 23:32:41 ... wait, is he a person in that #math place? 23:32:41 it's not *that* retarded 23:32:45 kerlo: ah. 23:32:54 kerlo: I assume he likes metamath, then. 23:32:56 oerjan: but differentials are used in actual calculations. 23:33:04 Because it's soo easy to understand, right? 23:33:13 oklopol: you said "the calculus i'm taking does not define differentials. haven't seen a definition for them," 23:33:14 http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/2p2e4.html 23:33:19 Best way to understand 2+2=4 23:33:21 ehird: how smart are you? 23:33:27 which makes absolutely no sense to me, i asked the lecturer what the fuck that was about, and he muttered something about the course being for non-mathematicians. 23:33:28 kerlo: not. 23:33:32 ehird is incredibly smart for his age 23:33:38 he's the smartest 4-year-old i know 23:33:42 oerjan: oh right 23:33:47 lament: harsh, man. harsh. 23:33:58 oerjan: yeah sorry, for differentials, no definition. 23:34:11 you're welcome to supply me with one 23:34:19 Well, he's obviously smart enough to be doing esoteric programming at the age of 12. 23:34:32 Weren't you in here in 2005? 23:34:40 If my calculations of everyone in #esoteric is correct, you'd have been 12 then. 23:34:44 I think I was also doing esoteric programming at the age of 12, indeed. 23:34:54 oklopol: um you are contradicting yourself 23:34:59 I knew about Brainfuck since I was like 10, I think. 23:35:05 oerjan: not contradicting, correcting 23:35:10 I only actually wrote programs in it when I was like 11 though. Even then barely 23:35:29 oerjan: derivatives and integrals were defined via limits, differentials not 23:35:36 I only learned about esoteric programming at 65 23:35:44 a latecomer to the field so to speak 23:35:47 oklopol: ok, d f(x) / dx = lim_{h -> 0} (f(x+h)-f(x))/h 23:35:56 oklopol: um wait no 23:35:58 oerjan: that's the definition of derivative 23:36:07 but what's dx there? 23:36:13 and what's d f(x) 23:36:17 those are the differentials 23:36:28 i am not aware of any distinction between derivative and differential :D 23:36:30 they gave us that definition, and started using them as if they were numbers. 23:36:39 For quite a while, I've wanted to take a GCSE and be done with high school. 23:36:44 they're the same thing 23:36:54 oerjan: well, does it sound feasible to you to multiply d f(x)/dx by dx? 23:37:03 that's what you do when dx is a differential 23:37:05 oh you mean separately 23:37:52 oerjan: yes, afaiu a differential means an infitesimal number two of whose division gives the derivative.... that is, blabber blabber nonsense nonsense whappidippydoo. 23:38:01 Or A-Levels or something. 23:38:22 oklopol: hm right. it's usually done wishy-washy 23:38:27 I like to think of things like dx as simply meaning the derivative of x with respect to a universal implicit variable. 23:38:40 another lecturer said on a different occasion differentials can be defined via multivariable functions. 23:38:54 you _can_ do it with non-standard analysis, which uses some heavy logic to embed infinitesimals in set theory 23:38:54 and that i should probably just try to live with them for now. 23:39:35 kerlo: everyone likes to think things. that's called nonsense :D 23:39:45 -!- oklopol has changed nick to okloWBW. 23:40:47 okloWBW: well kerlo's idea probably works best in practice 23:41:09 at least until you start with partial derivatives 23:41:35 i don't really care what works. i don't learn math because it's useful 23:42:36 okloWBW: of course this all goes back to leibnitz's notation (That d/dx stuff) which was really based on noting that treating stuff as infinitesimals mostly works 23:42:38 Partial dx is the partial derivative of x with respect to a different, non-universal implicit variable. 23:42:48 centuries before anyone defined it properly 23:43:38 *leibniz 23:44:52 kerlo: doesn't sounds all that formal to mea. 23:44:53 *me 23:45:41 okloWBW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Leibniz#Calculus is very relevant to our discussion 23:46:35 I think it can be formalized. 23:46:45 okloWBW: can I ask a J q 23:47:08 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:47:20 kerlo: most likely. but i can't do it in my head just like that. 23:47:25 ehird: err sure 23:47:30 i probably cannot answer. 23:47:39 okloWBW: what's the "mean" code again? this leads onto another q 23:48:12 mean=:+/%# 23:48:13 okloWBW: also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_(infinitesimal) mentions several ways of making it rigorous 23:49:28 okloWBW: so in (+ /% #), howcome it doesn't apply % to the functions themselves 23:49:35 I mean, how does the implicit arg get fitted in? 23:51:39 ehird: err 23:51:54 ehird: that's a fork 23:51:59 vwat 23:52:14 x (a b c) y means (x a y) b (x c y) 23:52:26 okay... why 23:52:28 that seems arbitrary 23:52:55 it may be arbitrary, but it's extremely useful, and lets you write most functions without naming your arguments 23:53:08 but 23:53:10 what about if I did 23:53:14 although i definitely don't think it's arbitrary 23:53:20 mean =: (+x)/%(#x) 23:53:23 would it try and put the arg in? 23:53:31 *(+/x)%(#x) 23:53:40 er yes 23:53:41 would it? 23:53:52 it would crash because x isn't defined 23:54:05 assume x is the formal parameter. 23:54:33 if x is a list, then (+x)/%(#x) is the mean of that list. 23:54:37 err 23:54:40 *correction 23:54:47 copypasted the wrong one 23:54:53 okay 23:54:58 so how come it doesn't feed in the arg automatically 23:55:01 what's the rule for that 23:55:20 oerjan: let's hope they teach me that in uni, i don't want to learn calculus on my own. 23:55:33 because, well, i'm not really that interested in it 23:55:42 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:55:47 ? 23:55:50 ehird: feed in the arg automatically..? 23:55:57 i... don't know what you mean 23:55:59 +/%# 23:56:02 transforms into 23:56:09 (+/x)%(#x) 23:56:10 but why doesn't 23:56:11 (+/x)%(#x) 23:56:13 transform into, etc 23:56:16 umm 23:56:17 how does it know when to fork 23:56:23 +/%# is just a fork 23:56:24 what's the rule 23:56:26 think of it as a lambda 23:56:31 i see no lambda 23:56:36 I see you dividing two functions. 23:56:48 yes, the semantics of which i already defined 23:57:36 essentially three adjacent functions evaluates to a lambda 23:57:43 oh 23:57:43 ok 23:57:47 also 23:57:48 +/%# 23:57:49 +-----+-+-+ 23:57:51 |+-+-+|%|#| 23:57:53 ||+|/|| | | 23:57:55 |+-+-+| | | 23:57:57 +-----+-+-+ 23:57:59 ascii art parse trees. 23:58:01 I can't decide if that's fucking stupid or fucking awesome 23:58:02 yes. 23:58:20 just a notational thing, i think you can change that somehow 23:58:27 ehird: it's very common in math to apply things to functions that way ("pointwise") 23:58:31 how do you retrieve the previous line into the prompt in J? 23:58:34 oerjan: hm, okay 23:58:40 yes, indeed 23:58:53 say (x^2-4) + (sin x) 23:59:06 x doesn't need to be bound, those can be functions too 23:59:19 you're just adding funcs then 23:59:20 o 23:59:20 o 23:59:20 o 23:59:20 o 23:59:30 23:58 how do you retrieve the previous line into the prompt in J? 23:59:35 ehird: click, enter 23:59:37 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:59:43 ugh.