00:10:38 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 00:32:39 MizardX: does matlab have lambdas? 00:32:49 combinators? forks? 00:33:50 I think @(params)expr could be considered a lambda-function... combinators and forks, I don't know. 00:34:53 well. you can rename the sum with a lambda and use the name 00:35:10 but err. seems like there could be a simple more mathematical hack there 00:37:32 nah probably not 00:39:20 min(abs(sum(sum(N)) - 3 - [N(5) 0])) == 0 00:39:29 err matlab doesn't distinguish between functions and lists? 00:39:31 i mean syntactically 00:39:54 what does [N(5) 0] mean? 00:40:02 oh 00:40:04 implicit map 00:40:50 hmm 00:40:52 oh abs 00:40:52 All values are matrices. Scalars have dimension 1x1. 00:41:04 couldn't you skip the abs and use max? 00:41:57 err 00:42:01 i see i see 00:42:11 but it's an implicit map in that case? 00:42:16 i mean. 00:42:25 well. 00:42:32 i still don't know what [N(5) 0] means 00:42:43 unless it's an array of size 2 containing those two 00:43:03 [1 2 3; 4 5 6; 7 8 9] is the syntax for matrices 00:43:55 N(5) is the fifth element of N (ignoring the second dimension) 00:43:58 2:42, need to sleep now. anyway i'll just assume i guessed it right because it works :P 00:44:01 i know it is 00:44:34 are arrays functions in matlab, can you pass them to, say, map? 00:44:46 but really, sleep, can't keep my eyes open 00:44:50 cya ~> 00:45:45 Hard to explain everything. Most the syntax have evolved and are there for convenience. 00:46:32 Matlab is good att matrix and vector calculation. 00:47:49 If you can express an algorithm as a matrix/vector expression, then matlab can execute it quickly. 00:49:15 A * B = matrix product, with special casing for vector and scalar values. 00:52:48 -!- bsmntbombgirl has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:49 -!- Dewi has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:49 -!- Slereah has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:50 -!- oktabot has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:50 -!- CakeProphet has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:50 -!- GregorR has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:55 -!- sebbu2 has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:55 -!- kerlobot has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:56 -!- adimit has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:57 -!- MizardX has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:57 -!- Judofyr has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:57 -!- oklofok has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:59 -!- decipher_ has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:59 -!- kerlo has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:52:59 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:00 -!- dbc has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:00 -!- pikhq has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:01 -!- AnMaster has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:02 -!- comex has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:03 -!- lament has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:03 -!- rodgort has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:04 -!- mtve has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:04 -!- SimonRC has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:54:18 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 00:54:18 -!- kerlobot has joined. 00:54:53 -!- comex has joined. 00:55:04 -!- adimit has joined. 00:55:04 -!- Judofyr has joined. 00:55:04 -!- oklofok has joined. 00:55:04 -!- MizardX has joined. 00:55:04 -!- decipher_ has joined. 00:55:04 -!- kerlo has joined. 00:55:06 -!- oktabot has joined. 00:55:06 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 00:55:06 -!- GregorR has joined. 00:55:27 -!- Dewi has joined. 00:55:27 -!- Slereah has joined. 00:55:55 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:55:55 -!- dbc has joined. 00:55:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:55:56 -!- bsmntbombgirl has joined. 00:56:27 -!- lament has joined. 00:56:30 -!- SimonRC has joined. 00:58:17 -!- rodgort has joined. 01:04:10 the fuck? 01:15:32 typical netsplit, apprently 01:56:11 * Max_D whistles 02:44:20 oktabot! 02:45:19 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:47:02 * Max_D loves the fishes cuase they're so delicious 02:59:33 -!- mtve has joined. 03:06:44 -!- Max_D has quit. 04:21:01 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 04:21:24 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 06:15:27 -!- Max_D has joined. 06:15:41 arrrrr 06:19:46 * Max_D wakes everybody up 06:20:35 o.o 06:52:50 soooooooooo... 07:37:27 -!- Max_D has quit ("$hiv++"). 07:58:06 -!- AnMaster has joined. 07:58:29 -!- AnMaster has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:41 -!- AnMaster has joined. 08:18:46 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 08:21:48 -!- metazilla has joined. 08:21:49 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:22:00 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 08:24:50 -!- amca has joined. 08:32:04 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:38:15 -!- metazilla has joined. 08:38:17 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:38:25 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 08:39:01 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:39:03 -!- metazilla has joined. 08:42:23 so 08:42:40 so 08:47:45 i wonder 08:48:34 What do you wonder? 08:48:49 what kinds of programming can we do if we force the entire model to be MISD 08:49:47 As in Multiple Instruction, Single data? 08:49:54 yeah 08:50:01 im using it loosely here ofcourse 08:50:03 but like 08:50:21 I think it would be called CISC. ;) 08:50:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:51:02 if we had to force all our functions to accept one and only one argument 08:51:12 except the functions that act like reduces 08:51:13 psygnisfive: then you'd end up with Unlambda? 08:51:17 :P 08:51:43 Like Lambda Calculus? 08:51:51 no no i mean more like 08:52:28 amca: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unlambda 08:52:37 well, im not really sure what i mean 08:52:43 it's one of the seminal esolangs, you should look it up if you don't know it 08:53:56 im just thinking about how the brain processes data, and such. 08:54:11 i guess purely functional programming is vaguely like that i suppose 08:54:46 ais523: Ive come across it. It is more combinatorial logic than LC isnt it? 08:55:14 yes 08:55:23 although LC can be compiled into combinatorial logic 08:55:33 And vice versa? 08:55:36 I don't know of anyone who's tried to write Unlambda without going via LC first 08:55:39 except for very simple programs 08:59:24 hm.. everything-as-a-stream is interesting too 09:03:48 There is a name for that isnt there? Data programming languages? 09:04:09 well, there are stream programming languages 09:04:17 but i dont know of a language where _everything_ must be a stream 09:04:23 all data, anyway 09:05:26 Sceql? 09:06:09 no i mean a real language :p 09:09:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:09:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:10:56 -!- rodgort has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:10:56 -!- bsmntbombgirl has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:11:35 -!- rodgort has joined. 09:11:35 -!- bsmntbombgirl has joined. 09:17:28 -!- Leonidas has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:17:34 -!- Leonidas has joined. 09:48:56 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:55:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 10:01:43 -!- oprz has joined. 10:02:12 hi 10:02:20 hello 10:02:26 i was coding in +'s and .'s 10:02:28 is this ok? 10:02:41 in brainfuck? 10:02:51 yeah 10:03:08 well you can print fixed strings that way 10:03:35 well with wrapping cells 10:04:07 oh 10:04:15 i dont like brainfuck that much 10:04:33 i like the PHP function used for parsing brainfuck code 10:04:36 that is cool 10:04:45 * oerjan doesn't know PHP 10:05:09 but brainfuck is implemented in almost everything 10:05:40 how do you mean 10:06:13 there are implementations in lots of languages. 10:06:33 oh 10:06:51 it's so simple it's very easy to implement 10:07:04 i think it is hard to implement 10:07:11 but then again my brain is small 10:07:20 not compared to nearly any other languages 10:07:40 whats the point of implementing another language into an existing language? 10:08:15 well you have to do it at least once to get the new language running at all :D 10:08:24 guess 10:08:59 but most people do it as a programming exercise i think 10:09:35 we have a page on our wiki about esoteric languages implemented in each other 10:09:44 cool 10:10:18 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/EsoInterpreters 10:14:30 will look later got to go now 10:14:41 bye 10:16:13 -!- oprz has left (?). 10:35:26 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:35:34 -!- puzzlet has joined. 10:57:19 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lost terminal"). 11:13:06 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:13:14 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:05:27 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 12:17:38 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:31:01 -!- ehird has joined. 12:31:55 hi! 12:38:37 lo? 12:42:14 hi. 12:44:37 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell"). 12:47:12 [] ([] a -> a) -> [] a 12:48:10 Quite so. 12:48:39 .. but can you implement it ? 12:48:53 Well, it's just [[a] -> a] -> [a]. 12:49:11 So, some fix magic there. 12:49:12 well `[]' doesn't stand for "List", here 12:49:19 ski__: What does it stand for? 12:49:30 `[]' is supposed to look like the "box" character 12:49:43 you can interpret `[]' as "Code", if you wish 12:49:50 What is it? :p 12:50:34 so, a value in `[] a' is an expression/code for a value in `a' 12:50:40 consider things like 12:50:43 Ah. 12:50:44 eval :: [] a -> a 12:50:51 Like (2+2) :: [] Integer? 12:51:00 Or, well, you'd need a quoting char. 12:51:02 no, `2+2' is an integer 12:51:03 yes 12:51:04 {2+2} :: [] Integer? 12:51:07 like 12:51:12 `(+ 2 2) 12:51:14 in lisps 12:51:33 Okay. so you pass it code that evaluates to a function that takes some code evaluating to type a and returns a value of type a. 12:51:42 And it gives you some code evaluating to type a. 12:51:48 (or `<2 + 2>' in MetaML .. i don't recall if MetaO'Caml had the same syntax there) 12:51:53 {eval} works for the first argument. 12:52:04 But what does it do? 12:52:18 i'm not sure 12:52:27 i'm trying to implement it to find out 12:52:38 i have a proof of it in a book 12:52:55 where `[]' is interpreted as "Provable" 12:52:58 foo x = eval x $ foo x 12:53:03 :-P 12:53:23 the proof i've seen seems quite remniscent of 12:53:33 ((lambda (u) 12:53:44 Is foo x = eval x $ foo x not a valid definition? 12:53:48 `(,u ',u)) 12:53:53 '(lambda (u) 12:53:56 `(,u ',u))) 12:54:14 ski__: foo x = eval x $ foo x 12:54:16 wouldw ork, no? 12:54:17 (if you squint the right way) 12:54:23 err, actually 12:54:24 it'd be 12:54:28 foo x = {eval x $ foo x} 12:54:39 hm 12:55:45 i think that might often hang 12:56:09 (that definition is basically the `loebF :: Functor f => f (f a -> a) -> f a', i think) 12:56:16 Ha, loeb. 12:56:20 ski__: But, certainly it would. 12:56:24 It still meets the type. 12:56:27 yes, Loeb's theorem 12:56:35 Yes, I know 12:56:59 however, i think if one implements it correctly, it would never hang (on defined inputs) 12:57:08 "`'´" 12:57:19 (the logic in the book is supposed to be a consistent one ..) 12:57:56 (MizardX : never seen nestable quotes before ?) 12:58:40 (ehird : another strange thing is that `[] a -> a' is not generally provable in the logic (it would lead to contradiction)) 12:59:03 ski__: `' style quotes are pretty ugly :-P 12:59:05 also, really? odd 12:59:18 ski__: ah, goedel-y stuff? 13:00:34 if `[] a -> a' is a theorem, then `[] ([] a -> a)' is also a theorem, and by loeb's theorem `[] ([] a -> a) -> [] a', we could then deduce that `[] a' is a theorem .. 13:00:58 Therefore, the universe does not exist. 13:01:27 .. so if we want the logic to be consistent, and want `[]' to really mean "provable", then for any false `a' we'd better not have a proof of `[] a -> a' 13:01:35 Indeed. 13:01:39 [] a -> Maybe a? 13:01:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:01:53 Hi ais523. 13:01:54 hi ehird 13:02:02 you win, but not by much 13:03:48 (.. in any case, i'm trying to implement it in haskell .. by defining a data type `[]' .. but the quoting is not obvious how to handle) 13:03:56 whois ski__ 13:03:59 umm... 13:04:04 ais523 : i'm me 13:04:06 Defining a data type, [], might clash slightly :-P 13:04:12 why is #esoteric getting so many new people nowadays? 13:04:17 ski__ is an AI build out of the ski combinatory calculus 13:04:20 has esolanging accidentally become popular? 13:04:20 ais523: I brought this one from #haskell <_< 13:04:22 obviously i'm not calling it `[]' ! :) 13:04:46 also, one of our newbies only came here by chance 13:04:53 * ski__ has visited here once or twice before .. 13:05:06 hmm I think I may be mixing you up with someone else 13:05:06 :) 13:05:16 I'm worried that my INTERCAL evangelism may have gone too far... 13:05:38 Grepping the logs for 'ski' is nontrivial 13:05:49 * ski__ bows 13:05:54 06.03.19:08:04:31 --- join: ski__ (n=slj@84-217-32-122.tn.glocalnet.net) joined #esoteric 13:06:23 First occurance of "ski": 13:06:23 03.01.21:01:59:01 printed with a befunge prog or something? I recall seeing a sierpinski-triangle-printer once. 13:06:35 (YY.MM.DD:HH:MM:SS, in case anyone didn't know) 13:07:29 hmm... I keep hitting MichaelRaskin from #IRP 13:07:33 It was about one of dbc's printed-out ascii-art thingsies. 13:07:45 The name Michael Raskin rings a bell. 13:07:53 fizzie: wow, how can you remember that? 13:08:03 ehird: With the magic of 'grep'. 13:08:13 That is to say: I cheated. 13:08:25 :-D 13:09:21 well, ski__ and me have never been in the same channel at the same time before 13:09:24 at least not while I'm on this client 13:09:33 but that's not surprising, 2006 was before I got this laptop 13:09:59 ais523: You only came in here 200 13:10:01 2007 13:10:07 07.01.15:09:15:34 --- join: ais523 (n=chatzill@chillingi.eee.bham.ac.uk) joined #esoteric 13:10:30 ah, everyone loves CDE 13:10:37 which is the desktop environment that old server was running 13:10:44 yurgh 13:10:52 via X forwarding to a terminal running on Windows 13:11:03 You know, I think Windows would be preferable to that, ais523. 13:11:11 ehird: it didn't have an IRC client 13:11:16 and we weren't allowed to install executables 13:11:24 Use a web-based one? :p 13:11:33 besides, I did pretty much everything back then using xterm 13:11:40 that way the desktop environment didn't really matter 13:11:45 it's where I learnt the UNIX command line 13:14:41 09:45:05 Yes, I'm enjoying esolangs. I enjoyed the logs, too, before I had access to an IRC client. 13:14:46 you were a logreader before you ever came in 13:14:48 Impressive. 13:14:55 yes 13:14:59 they were linked from the wiki 13:15:17 took me a while to find an IRC client 13:15:24 without installing any software 13:15:28 or knowing about netcat/telnet 13:15:52 How did you install firefox? 13:15:53 err 13:15:54 chatzilla 13:15:57 I didn't 13:16:00 it was there already 13:16:02 Ah 13:16:11 Bloatzilla, then, I assume 13:17:21 it was a case of clicking on a irc:// link to see what happened 13:17:21 and that was a really old version of Mozilla 13:17:21 it did some really weird things 13:17:32 (I blanked Talk:Main Page on Wikipedia by accident, once, for instance, and quite a lot of my edits introduced spurious line breaks. I stopped using Mozilla for Wikipedia when I noticed.) 13:21:46 * ehird complains about human bias on Talk:Main_Page 13:22:24 Olol 13:22:24 It's a "featured article" full of bilge. This is one of the few really reprehensible things about Wikipedia: that we have so many brilliant articles but we filter them in such a manner that the most ridiculous crap is designated as the best we have. It's pretty horrible. If you're involved in this bilious process, stop. If you're not, stay away from it. Write about what need to be written about , edit the articles that need to be edited, and avoid the pr 13:22:35 Can Wikipedia pick a FA that won't be complained about? 13:22:41 Is it physically possible? 13:22:50 -!- Hiato has joined. 13:23:35 [[ I'm left with the urge to ask if wikipedia got paid for running this commercial. ]] 13:23:39 Nobody's EVER done that before! 13:23:59 ehird: I think there have been some FAs that haven't been complained about 13:24:06 although I can't think of one offhan 13:24:10 *offhand 13:27:26 (cut off at "... and avoid the pr") 13:29:04 ski__: you got the gist 13:29:35 was it a quote or something you actually wrote just above ? 13:30:45 quote 13:32:34 Wikipedia, request for discussion about the "Nasal Sex → Sexual intercourse" redirect: "Delete. Why would anyone search for nasal sex?" "While I don't wish to speculate the reason why, it was seached for 70 times in novemeber 2008 and 100 times in october." 13:33:22 Hah 13:33:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_Sex 13:33:43 Redirect fail 13:48:01 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:22:59 I entered here first 17 days before ais523 did: 14:22:59 06.12.29:12:42:41 --- join: ehird (n=ehird@user-5440e204.wfd80a.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #esoteric 14:23:04 But I didn't say anything. 14:23:09 I only returned in 2007. 14:23:18 2007-05-14, to be precise. 14:23:55 12:42:41 --- join: ehird (n=ehird@user-5440e204.wfd80a.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #esoteric 14:23:58 12:43:09 --- part: ehird left #esoteric 14:24:00 That's some epic shyness. 14:26:00 I should get a PhD in #esoteric Log Analysis. 14:27:44 so, like, i was at this lecture just now 14:27:48 and, like, there was this dude 14:27:51 in front of me 14:28:02 who was coding a function called parseDoubles in java 14:28:06 for two hours 14:28:20 what were you doing? 14:28:36 well correcting it for two hours, at the end of the lecture, the code was red with errors 14:28:47 :-D 14:28:48 err i was listening to the lecture and reading algebra 14:28:56 and watching him, silently lolling inside 14:29:16 oklofok: "silently lolling" is a bit of an oxymoron... 14:29:28 oklopol is an oxymoron 14:29:30 yeah, that was actually not intentional 14:29:32 he breathes, and he's a moron 14:29:34 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA 14:29:35 <__< 14:29:37 xxxxxxxxxxxxD 14:30:00 hahahaha that's the funniest joke I've made all year 14:30:06 ais523: also "silently xxxing inside" is the opposite of oxymoron 14:30:11 there's a term for it too right? 14:30:19 ehird: your jokes are even worse than AnMaster's 14:30:30 ? 14:30:32 oklofok: I'm not entirely sure if it's the opposite 14:30:38 14:30 < ais523> ehird: your jokes are even worse than AnMaster's 14:30:38 14:30 < AnMaster> ? 14:30:41 ah 14:30:44 AnMaster is physically incapable of looking up one line 14:30:44 actually 14:30:46 that was funny 14:30:50 :-P 14:31:04 oklopol is an oxymoron <-- I mean that one 14:31:05 it looks like it's the same thing, a contradiction negated is still a contradiction... 14:31:09 well, or a tautology 14:31:14 depending on what sort of negating you use 14:32:08 ais523: "silently lol", silently do something out loud, contradictory; "silently ... inside", to do something silently, and not do it out loud, a tautology 14:32:23 oklofok: oh, silently...inside is a redundancy 14:32:48 yes, but i'm pretty sure there's another term for when you do it in english 14:33:14 but still, was just pointing out it was doubly weirdly put. 14:34:32 * SimonRC worships B.S. 14:34:43 Actually referring to Bjrane Stroustrup, but they're equivalent. 14:36:04 what's wrong with bjarne? 14:36:14 he invented C++ 14:36:14 i agree with a lot of his writingz 14:36:18 and thought it was good 14:36:33 yes, but he hates the parts that suck as much as everyone 14:36:42 at least according to cpl 14:36:52 you mean like all of them? 14:36:52 :D 14:37:01 :) 14:37:55 i don't consider it a bad language, just too low-level for my taste 14:38:57 :: (- "asdasdfasdfasdf" "aaa") 14:38:58 f 14:39:07 :: (* "asdasdfasdfasdf" 6) 14:39:07 asdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdf 14:55:10 * ehird writes alphabet look and say in thue 14:55:12 That was easy. 14:55:30 -!- asiekierk has joined. 14:55:31 hi 14:55:32 i'm back 14:55:33 hi 14:55:36 most of you is back 14:55:41 Seems I will try out Chef :P 14:55:43 the final a got missed somewhere along the line, though 14:55:48 :P 14:55:49 maybe oerjan has it 14:55:51 -!- asiekierk has changed nick to asiekierka. 14:55:55 Maybe that's better 14:55:55 he's good at finding missing letters from nicks 14:56:01 is it? 14:56:04 yes 14:56:12 I had the "a" in my backpack 14:56:22 Just pulled it out and scanned it, so i could send it IRC-wise to my nickname 14:57:16 ouch 14:57:23 anyway 14:57:37 Yeah, I will try out Chef 14:57:41 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asiekierka[Cooki. 14:57:48 -!- asiekierka[Cooki has changed nick to asiekierkCooking. 14:58:02 Everyone that doesn't understand it please leave this chatroom 14:58:02 oh joy. 14:58:10 tempting. 14:58:11 -!- asiekierkCooking has changed nick to asiekierka. 14:58:19 uh-oh, ehird is back 14:59:38 I've been here all this time 14:59:43 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:02:26 Keymaker redesigned his site, I notice. 15:02:43 It's just a directory index now. 15:02:52 [http://yiap.nfshost.com/index.php] 15:07:22 wolframtones is a fun timewaster 15:08:22 wait, Encyclopedia Britannica is becoming a wiki? 15:08:28 is this an April Fool's joke, I wonder? 15:08:30 ... o.O 15:08:38 Must be. 15:08:42 but it isn't April 15:08:45 Link? 15:08:59 http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/biztech/battle-to-outgun-wikipedia-and-google/2009/01/22/1232471469973.html 15:09:04 found via Slashdot 15:09:19 keyword: its online version 15:09:22 Not the printed one, I assume. 15:09:28 yes, although probably they'll backport changes 15:09:34 besides, it's almost impossible to run a printed wiki 15:09:35 "If I were to be the CEO of Google or the founders of Google I would be very [displeased] that the best search engine in the world continues to provide as a first link, Wikipedia," he said."Is this the best they can do? Is this the best that [their] algorithm can do?" 15:09:43 all those crossings-out and tippex build up after a while 15:09:44 Because Wikipedia is bad because I said so 15:09:50 and you can't fit all that many people around the book 15:10:31 Citizendium-style, it seems, they haven't gone /completely/ against type 15:11:40 Hmm. 15:11:50 What would you call (x) from P'' in one uppercase letter? 15:11:53 P for parens? 15:12:38 hmm... I know P'' but not its notation 15:12:41 what does (x) do again? 15:13:52 R ( R ) L ( r' ( L ( L ) ) r' L ) R r 15:13:53 = 15:13:56 > [ > ] < [ − [ < [ < ] ] − < ] > + 15:14:00 So, loop. 15:14:04 ah, ok 15:14:10 why do you need in one capital letter? 15:14:16 Because. :P 15:14:19 given that it's inherently a two-different-places operation? 15:14:30 P seems most logical to me, for parens. 15:14:56 in Underlambda it is (or will be) w for while, but that's a lowercase letter 15:17:01 "will be"? 15:18:48 ehird: it isn't properly specced yet 15:18:51 pretty fluid 15:19:09 I'm more interested in getting Underlambda right rather than having it ready quickly 15:19:43 oh, underlambda 15:21:10 my other big new esolang project, besides Feather 15:22:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:43:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 15:49:47 O for lOOp 15:54:25 run :: P -> State 15:54:27 whee 15:55:26 of course, no parsing, it's for a genetic algorithm 15:55:31 see logs 07.05.17 15:55:50 no *you* see logs 15:57:45 in P'' 15:57:46 r ≡ λR, r′ ≡ rn 15:57:48 wtf does r' mean 15:57:49 ? 15:57:50 ais523? 15:57:53 err 15:57:56 that's r^n 15:57:59 ie superscript 15:58:30 it's the opposite of r 15:58:30 r increments, r' decrements 15:58:41 and you decrement by incrementing one less times than the max 15:58:44 via overflow 15:59:07 there is no max. 15:59:12 yes there is 15:59:19 P'' has a max value of n-1 15:59:23 what is n 15:59:23 n is normally set to 2, but can be set higher 15:59:29 and it's a different lang for each value of n 15:59:37 I was unaware 15:59:42 I was going by infinite ints 15:59:59 hm. 16:00:02 ehird: as they can only be incremented, not decremented, bignum P'' would be kind-of pointless... 16:00:09 I'll interpret P''_256 16:00:18 hmm 16:00:18 actually, that's cheating 16:00:23 would it be entirely pointless? 16:00:25 are you doing P'' because it's more mathematical-looking than BF? 16:00:33 oklofok: ah, that's actually an interesting question 16:00:43 I'm not at all sure now 16:00:44 16:00 < ais523> are you doing P'' because it's more mathematical-looking than BF? 16:00:44 omg 16:00:47 i'm pretty sure yes, but i don't instantly see why it couldn't let you do at least something 16:00:47 simpler to implement 16:00:50 oh wait 16:00:52 wrong channel 16:00:57 run' :: State -> P -> State 16:00:58 run' (t,h) R = (t, h+1) 16:00:58 run' (t,h) L = (t',h') 16:00:58 where t' = gTake h t ++ [(t !!! h) + 1] ++ gDrop h t 16:00:58 h' = if h == 0 then 0 else h - 1 16:01:01 run' s (C p q) = run' (run' s p) q 16:01:02 run' (t,h) (P q) 16:01:05 | (t !!! h) == 0 = (t,h) 16:01:07 | otherwise = run' (run' (t,h) q) (P q) 16:01:08 it would effectively be BF with a set-to-1 command rather than + and - 16:01:10 9-line P'' implementation 16:01:12 (for bignums...) 16:01:26 and what does !!! do/ 16:01:35 (!!!) = genericIndex 16:01:45 Integral a=>[b]->a->b 16:01:49 ah, nth element of a list 16:01:49 i'm sure you can figure it out. 16:01:55 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:01:57 strange operator 16:01:57 yes it's normally !! 16:01:59 but that only takes Ints 16:02:01 instead of Integers 16:02:05 it's (!!) 16:02:05 oh, ok 16:02:05 so finite tape 16:02:08 oklofok: no 16:02:09 it's (!!!). 16:02:13 16:02 < ehird> yes it's normally !! 16:02:15 16:02 < ehird> but that only takes Ints 16:02:15 16:02 < ehird> instead of Integers 16:02:15 ehird: it's essentially !! 16:02:17 16:02 < ehird> so finite tape 16:02:20 why can't they just take anything of numeric type? 16:02:27 ais523: because haskell has warts, too 16:02:35 impossible, it should be fixed 16:02:44 *integral type 16:02:46 done, said, easier than 16:02:50 indexing with floats is obviously silly 16:02:56 when you're dealing with Haskell lists 16:03:01 (less silly in other langs, it actually works in JS) 16:03:18 well does js have lists 16:03:26 oklofok: it has arrays 16:03:29 but they're basically just hash tables 16:03:34 yes, it have hashmaps 16:03:35 you can put any junk you like in the subscript and it works 16:03:36 *has 16:03:52 quite clever, really 16:03:55 yeah, that was more of a statement. 16:03:57 and no it's not 16:04:00 there's no actual reason but efficiency to differ arrays and hashmaps 16:04:00 if by clever you mean slow and hacky. 16:04:03 oklotalk generalizes it much better 16:04:06 ais523: yes there is 16:04:09 arrays don't have gaps. 16:04:30 ehird: that's just an arbitrary restriction 16:04:30 also, it fucks up iteration. 16:04:38 and iteration still works just as well 16:04:44 ais523: allowing arrays not to be an elephant is also an arbitrary restriction 16:04:49 but it's part of the definition of arrays. 16:04:51 ais523: yes, that's arbitrary, but there are also things that are not arbitrary 16:05:01 like all merging, inserting and deleting 16:05:16 the behavior simply has to be different 16:05:18 we should generalise those operations to hashmaps too 16:05:24 a delete-adjust action, for instance 16:05:29 in fact hashmaps and functions are closer together than lists and hashmaps 16:05:54 lists are different from arrays, though 16:06:03 in that lists aren't really designed to be indexed 16:06:12 and can be accessed from the start much more easily than from the end 16:06:37 ais523: that's *much* more arbitrary than the distinction ehird mentioned. 16:06:57 not really 16:07:05 for instance, when you delete from an array, which way do the elements shift? 16:07:07 for a list it's obvious 16:07:18 the end 16:07:19 but it's not obvious that they should go left not right in an array, because they're symmetrical 16:07:21 16:07 < ehird> the end 16:07:22 16:07 < ais523> but it's not obvious th 16:07:23 oops. 16:07:24 ais523: 16:07:27 Python calls its arrays lists. 16:07:29 You are talking about LINKED lists 16:07:34 Please be aware of the difference 16:07:35 yes, and Lisp-like lists 16:07:42 ... which are linked lists. 16:07:48 yes 16:07:52 they're more like binary trees than arrays 16:07:52 also called lists 16:07:57 "list" != "linked list" 16:08:04 err well 16:08:06 ehird is correct 16:08:12 ehird: well, if you insist on defining a list as an array of course they're the same 16:08:17 IMO, Python naming here is just confusing 16:08:18 list should be used for arrays without the arrayish properties 16:08:24 a list is a list. 16:09:03 oklofok: I think I agree 16:09:10 i mean 16:09:16 arrays have a strongly typed feel to them 16:09:31 also, I think lists and ring buffers are pretty similar 16:09:35 whereas arrays and ring buffers aren't 16:10:01 hmm? 16:10:34 you can imagine a list which somehow contains itself, at the end 16:10:44 this is more of a philosophy question of course, the terms aren't that standard 16:10:47 yes 16:11:07 I think the fundamental difference is that arrays are inherently linked to (positive/nonnegative) integers 16:11:09 well, they are standard in that many ppl have an opinion on what they obviously mean 16:11:10 as a method of indexing 16:11:16 so are lists 16:11:18 but those opinions don't always agree 16:11:21 and deleting elements from an array isn't really an intuitive operation at all 16:11:26 it doesn't fit arrays, really 16:11:26 yeah 16:11:27 not linked lists though 16:11:29 because it involves renumbering 16:11:38 deleting from a list, though, does make sense 16:12:10 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 16:13:09 oh, it's that late. 16:13:21 i need to start doing an unspecified thing ~ 16:13:24 > 16:13:30 lol 16:14:56 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:16:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:34:54 http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N64/squidvswhale.html 16:35:38 does it answer 3 foxes vs. polar bear? 16:35:42 I'll be wondering about that one for years, now 16:35:48 and it would be inhumane to find out by experiment 16:35:52 no 16:35:55 also, it's unlikely to happen in the wild... 16:36:05 it's nothing to do with squids v whales 16:36:43 ok, then why the URL? 16:37:04 unless a whale is a badly-configured web browser with no caching, and a squid is a sort of proxy, maybe? 16:37:19 Beats me. 16:37:27 I think squid vs whale is the name of the column. 16:37:41 I like my explanation bette 16:37:43 *better 16:52:11 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:53:20 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 17:04:03 "In fact, although I have not tested Safari 3.1, I am relatively certain it will not render properly in any released browser. " 17:04:07 -- http://annevankesteren.nl/2009/01/moving-the-goalposts 17:09:22 ehird: someone tried to design a page that wouldn't render? 17:09:34 apart from that SHORTTAGS one we had in here a while back? 17:09:39 ais523: clicking the link helps 17:09:50 yes, but I prefer to do my internetting over IRC and email 17:10:04 then you don't get context, that's your loss 17:10:16 or, I could pipe lynx -dump into here 17:10:45 hi 17:14:36 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:39:10 -!- Mony has joined. 17:42:21 -!- M0ny has joined. 18:00:40 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:00:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:03:44 -!- comex has changed nick to retarded_monkey. 18:19:40 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:20:06 Not notable enough to have a page. There are thousands of thousands books. A book must be very very notable to have a page(e.g. Bible, Quran, Dante's divine comedy etc etc). 18:20:12 I wonder what this guy thinks of the Pokemon articles. 18:26:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 18:26:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:55:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 18:55:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:07:25 -!- olsner has joined. 19:07:47 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:12:36 -!- asiekierka has quit. 19:17:45 Why would he mind those? There are less Pokemons than books. 19:18:54 For now. 19:22:52 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:25:51 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 19:33:49 ping 19:33:52 anyone home? 19:51:45 o 19:52:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:53:01 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:53:17 -!- Corun has joined. 20:07:36 -!- M0ny has quit ("Quit"). 20:19:18 -!- jix has joined. 20:33:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:43:59 he breathes, and he's a moron 20:44:06 EHIRD MUST DIE 20:44:19 erm wait he's not here 20:45:57 enjoy the silence while it lasts 20:46:03 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 20:46:46 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 20:46:59 the silence of the lambdas 20:47:13 -!- retarded_monkey has changed nick to comex. 20:47:35 * oerjan wasn't going to say that but his finger decided to miss the s 20:50:02 maybe oerjan has it 20:50:16 unlikely, my dialect drops final vowels all over the place 20:50:59 some of which may or may not be a's 20:51:35 s/all over the place/in infinitives/, really 20:53:13 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 20:59:30 wait ais523 is not here either? 21:01:51 no one's here, maybe you should leave too. 21:02:02 :´( 21:02:33 i agree it's sad, but hey, you can't tell a goat to be sacrificed. 21:03:05 don't say that, it's remarkable what science can do 21:03:12 for science! 21:05:06 oh well, at least they weren 21:05:10 't klined 21:05:20 for klines! 21:05:32 forklines! 21:05:52 xD 21:06:14 YOU TOOK THE WHITESPACE OUT LOL 21:06:32 in deed 21:17:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:20:46 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:24:48 -!- ehird has joined. 21:24:55 My fucking ISP is unable to maintain DNS servers 21:25:07 *inable 21:25:16 err maybe unable 21:26:03 -!- FireFly has joined. 21:27:42 ehird, maybe time to enable a local dns server then? 21:27:50 I'm using opendns. 21:27:57 Even though it sucks too. 21:28:09 ehird, I use a local recursive resolver. 21:28:25 Aren't you special. 21:28:27 that bypasses isp, no idea why that works 21:28:46 I mean, why use opendns, when setting it up to query directly works just as well 21:29:07 (tcpdump indicates it query root servers directly sometimes) 21:29:28 Time to set up custom DNS server, maintain it [even though i really fucking don't want to bother with that], and do all this without access to DNS: days, weeks, who knows. 21:29:37 Time to stick in the OpenDNS ip: 20 seconds. 21:29:43 *IPs 21:31:40 ehird, emerge bind; emacs /etc/namedb/named.conf; /etc/init.d/named start 21:31:49 emacs /etc/resolve.conf 21:31:51 done 21:31:58 err 21:32:00 emacs /etc/resolv.conf 21:32:01 even 21:32:16 "emerge bind" 21:32:17 6 hours 21:32:24 "emacs /etc/namedb/named.conf" 21:32:27 Is interrupted by 21:32:35 "kill yourself for wasting so much fucking time" 21:32:38 and the process stops there. 21:35:13 "emerge bind" <-- genlop (a tool analyzing emerge.log) says average merge time was 7 minutes and 23 seconds for bind on my system 21:35:35 ehird, also why in such a hurry? 21:37:02 because I'd rather put in the OpenDNS IPs in 20 seconds than wait hours compiling and configuring BIND for ABSOLUTELY NO GAIN WHATSOEVER other than a weird form of nerd mental masturbation? 21:37:17 also, good fucking luck installing + configuring bind without any DNS 21:37:31 won't start? oh snap good luck finding out why! 21:38:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:39:09 ehird, well, you could just use host to query root servers directly 21:39:20 or you could use some existing dns server you have installed 21:39:28 if you have any 21:39:31 Yes, everyone has a DNS server installed. 21:39:45 AnMaster: now WHY would I do this over putting in the opendns IPs until my ISP gets its act together? 21:39:49 ehird, well since OS X is based on *BSD I would assume so. bind is part of FreeBSD base 21:39:56 Wow, I'd be a few hours without annoying search pages on invalid resolves 21:40:08 Except I'd have wasted many more hours getting it working. What fun. 21:40:25 ehird, it takes less than 30 minutes for me to set it up 21:40:50 also there is dns over irc while you set it up: asking friends (like me) to resolve the domain for you 21:40:52 And it takes me less than 30 seconds to put the OpenDNS IPs in. 21:40:52 ;P 21:41:10 "friends (like me)" hahahah. And I couldn't connect to freenode, duh. 21:41:19 ehird, well if you don't want it, fine, however it is useful even during normal operation 21:41:24 Uh huh. 21:41:34 Yes, I daily wish I ran my own DNS server. 21:41:34 faster dns since it caches more locally 21:41:36 Not 21:41:39 afk 21:42:06 12:44:06 EHIRD MUST DIE 21:42:06 12:44:19 erm wait he's not here 21:42:06 12:45:57 enjoy the silence while it lasts 21:42:07 Harsh 21:43:42 :D 21:43:45 (back) 21:44:13 just 21:44:15 because 21:44:15 I 21:44:15 use 21:44:15 a 21:44:18 new 21:44:21 line 21:44:23 as 21:44:26 punctuation 21:44:28 doesn't 21:44:31 mean 21:44:34 I 21:44:35 should 21:44:38 be 21:44:41 discriminated 21:44:43 against. 21:45:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:53:42 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 22:00:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:11:36 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:15:11 ehird: yeseitedoesebuteitecouldebeeworse 22:16:41 bee 22:17:00 wildebeest 22:17:09 Wild E Bee St. 22:17:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye"). 22:17:55 http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/d/de/Dancing_cats.gif 22:17:59 DERP DERP 22:18:15 I clicked and saw a cat but it was stationary. 22:18:19 Can I have my money back? 22:18:36 It is not, ehird 22:18:39 It moves! 22:18:45 many people would like cats on their stationary 22:19:15 Slereah2: my browser hates you :( 22:19:29 * oerjan wonders if he is thinking of the right word 22:20:37 oh it's spelled stationery 22:25:55 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 22:50:21 In.Lojban,.you.can.use.dots.to.separate.words. 22:50:36 But--that--indicates--that--you--pronounce--it--like--this. 22:51:14 ",." is interesting 22:51:27 although i guess that's just "." 22:51:35 i'm no phonetician 22:52:20 Well, it can affect the prosody of the preceding word. 22:52:52 "My.uncle,.Jack" and "My.uncle.Jack" are different. 22:55:54 -!- Max_D has joined. 22:56:05 * Max_D blah 23:03:52 kerlo: err maybe in english. not in lojban 23:03:56 not that i know what prosody is. 23:04:07 i'm assuming it's something that makes what i said true. 23:04:18 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:04:43 * kerlo nods 23:05:11 Prosody is the part of speech that you can't express with a list of words. 23:05:51 right. 23:06:18 o 23:06:18 o 23:06:19 o 23:06:19 o 23:06:19 o 23:06:19 o 23:06:21 o 23:06:23 o 23:06:25 -> 23:06:59 That is a very good example of a sentence consisting virtually entirely of prosody. 23:08:16 yeah right 23:08:22 * Max_D is confused 23:08:37 Had that that had that had had that that had had that had that that had, I would have had that. 23:09:05 Now I will tell you the grammar of the above sentence for make benefit. 23:09:08 * oerjan is confused 23:09:20 why would you ruin a good puzzle for us 23:09:35 because he's EVIL, duh 23:09:55 had that "that" had that "had had" that that "had had" had that that had, i would have had that 23:09:59 is a parsing at least 23:10:12 hmm 23:10:21 i'm not sure that actually helped you see what parsing i meant ;) 23:11:20 had that bad hat that that that had had that bat had that hat hat 23:11:41 ::= that ; ::= that that ; ::= had ; ::= had had ; ::= had , I would have had that. 23:11:51 That's the grammar of the above sentence. 23:11:58 Unfortunately, it's still an ambiguous grammar. 23:12:10 mmkay. 23:12:13 i don't get it 23:12:26 Also, I'm wrong in that sentences of the form "I like that had had ice cream." aren't actually valid. 23:12:27 how bout you put some parens in 23:12:41 * Max_D is bored... yay! 23:12:49 Okay, I'll put parentheses in according to my incorrect grammar. 23:12:54 what what that that what that that what that that what that what would that what? 23:12:55 kerlo: yes please 23:13:32 (had (that that (had (that (had had (that that (had had (that (had (that that had)))))))))), I would have had that. 23:14:10 I don't really feel like coming up with a better grammar. 23:14:14 +++++++++6+++ 23:14:16 +++51 23:14:17 .023 23:14:17 . 23:14:30 i don't understand how a sentence can have its own grammar 23:14:41 oooooooooooooo 23:14:42 oooooooooooooooooo 23:14:49 It can't; that's a really tiny segment of English grammar that's sufficient for this sentence. 23:14:55 ehird: looks familiar 23:15:25 that's valid... what's the language again 23:15:29 is that intentional? 23:15:31 that that that that that that that that that that that refers to refers to refers to refers to nothing 23:22:14 -!- Max_D has quit. 23:24:11 oklofok: should be intentional; isn't 23:25:23 should should be intentional isn't isn't intentional 23:27:16 ehird: wait actually, nm, there's no "+" instruction in the lang i'm thinking of. but, the structure looks the same 23:40:20 http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/pacificnw/2008177548_pacificpendgame14.html 23:43:19 he totally lost the game lol get it 23:44:12 xD 23:44:13 sleep 23:44:15 ->