00:07:45 hey guys :D 00:10:36 optbot! 00:10:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Sure, but it's also substantially superior to the Wiz :P. 00:10:39 optbot! 00:10:40 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | My head is hairy.. 00:41:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Its just really frustrating. 00:41:37 Hmm... I made an interpeter for Redivider in python, and an interpreter for Brainf**k in Redivider. It throws up after ~1000 bf instructions (stack overflow), but does Redivider still count as turing complete? 00:43:43 python stack overflow? 00:43:56 if so, that's not redivider's problem 00:44:11 python stack overflow, yes. 00:44:49 iirc python has an arbitrary stack limit that can be annoying 00:45:38 and presumably no tail call optimization either 00:45:49 no 00:47:26 Neither in python nor my rd interpreter. That could be a goal for the next version. 00:48:41 Where could I upload the code? Pasting 500 lines of python on the wiki doesn't sound very appealing. 00:48:58 for turing completeness, you usually assume no arbitrary resource limits 00:49:50 right, some people here have access to the esoteric file archive, not me though 00:51:31 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Esolang:The_Esoteric_File_Archive 00:53:47 GregorR and pgimeno are here regularly, at least, GregorR might even be here now 00:55:02 although it's probably not a good idea if the interpreter is still under too much development 00:55:51 hm also there's that eso-std.org site or something like that which some are using 01:00:03 i'm sure there are lots of free places, but i don't use them, what little i do i put on my homepage 01:00:59 * oerjan notes that the eso-std.org homepage is not overly informative :D 01:01:17 i _think_ it may be ehird's and ais523's site 01:02:46 Well... I put the bf-interpreter on the wiki at least. It's only 182 lines, 100 of which is atoi/itoa. http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Redivider/Brainfuck_Interpreter 01:06:22 hm right, optbot is running there and belongs to ehird 01:06:23 oerjan: ~exec sys.stdout.write("foo") 01:19:15 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:26:36 "sometimes i fly around in a spaceship :>" 01:26:38 Wow 01:26:43 THAT's useful. 01:27:28 i guess ehird is secretly Calvin 01:27:39 and ais523 is Hobbes 01:27:49 Once I was in a spaceship and I saw my house! 01:28:19 oerjan: And the (2,3) machine has only been proven complete in the minds of comic book readers everywhere D-8 01:28:40 GregorR: maybe that's for the best 01:30:20 -!- MizardX- has joined. 01:30:23 -!- MizardX has quit (Nick collision from services.). 01:30:43 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 01:38:22 I nominate myself for the position of Hobbes. 01:38:50 Because of the Calvin-raping-Hobbes scenes you don't usually see in the comic. 01:39:03 I have pictures of such scenes 01:39:06 Do you want them 01:39:28 Rule 34 8-D 01:39:49 I also nominate myself for the position of Ozymandias Justin Llewellyn, who, according to the Encyclopedia Dramatica, is just a lousy clone of Hobbes. I think. 01:40:13 *Ozy 01:40:31 Ozy and Millie is a more LIBERAL version of Calvin and Hobbes 01:40:38 Ah, of course. 01:41:25 * warrie peeks at the Bird Brains, the I Drew This blog, authored by D. C. Simpson, Thomas K. Dye, and some other guy 01:42:19 Do you remember that INTERNET WAR with R H Junior? 01:42:23 That was hilarious 01:43:43 so i herd u liek BLOODkips 01:44:31 No, I just read about it on the Encyclopedia Dramatica. 01:55:32 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:13:57 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 02:17:10 -!- Slereah has joined. 02:36:50 -!- oerjan has quit ("Out herding mudkips with Lady Mondegreen"). 02:37:32 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:40:12 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 02:44:02 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:05:47 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 03:23:10 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 04:42:23 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:17:40 -!- ab5tract has joined. 05:17:50 -!- ab5tract has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:27:37 -!- Slereah has joined. 05:46:08 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:53:13 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 06:04:13 hi i'm new here, what's this channel about is it about mudkips? 06:04:31 (i liek mudkips somewhat) 06:04:49 talk to you later, need to go do stuff -> 06:29:58 -!- Judofyr has quit. 06:32:53 <><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<>< 06:33:13 ><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>> 06:33:51 ><> <>< ><> <>< ><> <>< ><> <>< ><> <>< 06:34:15 ><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>>< 06:34:30 ><>< ><>< ><>< ><>< ><>< 06:35:38 #! < <>< < ><> ><> <>< > > 06:35:51 fishp? 06:41:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and join #bsmnt_bot_chroot_errors so you can see all the exceptions that you just raised. 06:43:24 FISHP 06:50:04 so i herd u liek mudkips? 07:35:58 -!- olsner has joined. 07:50:57 -!- moozilla has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:53:53 -!- AquaLoqua has joined. 08:54:34 Deewiant, I have another for you to verify if you don't mind (and also if you could get it primted in a decimal string): 3^6184 -2 08:56:08 is prime 08:56:19 Oh yeah :D 08:56:24 Thanks Deewiant :) 08:56:47 "bc" will give you a decimal string of it just fine, though. 08:57:07 Can it be ported (Cygwin)? 08:57:14 cygwin has it. 08:57:27 morning 08:57:31 Ok, roger that 08:57:38 AquaLoqua: and you can just put it into GHCi as well :-P 08:57:58 What, really? 08:58:07 sure 08:58:15 Heh, you're right, wow, I didn't know it had arbitrary precision 08:58:18 that's awesome 08:58:41 (- (expt 3 6184) 2) in any Scheme system worth it's salt, also. 08:58:57 s/'// 08:58:58 (brb, pre-lunch meal) 09:13:19 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:15:44 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("So, how much do you love noodles?"). 09:38:42 back, should anyone be interested 09:39:43 -!- AquaLoqua has quit ("Dana"). 09:55:40 -!- Doitle2 has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:55:40 -!- thutubot has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:55:40 -!- Leonidas has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:55:40 -!- jayCampbell has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:56:05 -!- Doitle2 has joined. 09:56:05 -!- thutubot has joined. 09:56:05 -!- Leonidas has joined. 09:56:05 -!- jayCampbell has joined. 10:00:37 -!- Hiato_ has joined. 10:01:38 -!- Hiato_ has quit (Client Quit). 11:09:45 -!- metazilla has joined. 11:09:53 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 11:10:15 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:12:30 -!- oklopol has joined. 11:20:39 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:20:54 -!- oklopol has joined. 11:21:46 mornin. 11:22:31 -oklopol- Fri Nov 14 13:22:02 2008 <-- hm 11:22:36 well not morning IMO ;P 11:22:52 but i'm tired :< 11:28:44 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:49:50 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:50:14 -!- oklopol has joined. 11:58:12 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:58:33 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:04:32 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection reset by peer). 12:05:40 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:22:46 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:23:04 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:27:09 fizzie: actually i was wrong about knowing how to run, i've only recently learned to run. 12:27:27 technically i was just "jumping around" before. 12:27:48 because i think the definition of running is only one foot touches ground between the jumps. 12:28:07 and in walking you always have 1-2 feet on the ground 12:28:44 i was doing something in-between, because i relied on the leg behind me to make me kinda tilt forward at impact so i can jump into the right direction. 12:28:51 hard to explain really. 12:29:24 but anyway, now i'm actually running, i'm pretty fast too. still falling down a lot, but now it occasionally actually looks like running. 12:29:43 * oklopol continues -> 12:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | dad runs our wireless internet. 12:45:03 -!- AquaLoqua has joined. 12:48:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:49:39 -!- Hiato has joined. 12:50:03 Hrmm, I logged in? 12:54:24 -!- LinuS has joined. 12:55:02 -!- Corun has joined. 12:58:40 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:02:48 got to 83.9 meters 13:03:18 the problem is after the ~10 hours of gameplay i get so excited from getting near the goal i actually forget what the buttons do. 13:04:18 this is usually my problem, i can either get it done on a few attempts, or i can die a few times near the beginning, after which i lose self-confidence, and progress becomes slow. 13:04:36 but, it's not like i'm in a hurry, i have a good 120 years left. 13:08:08 lol. now i can suddenly get to 50 meters routinely. 13:08:13 i should really get my brain inspected 13:08:20 * oklopol continues 13:13:44 You're making good progress there. 13:24:53 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:25:08 -!- oklopol has joined. 13:25:41 -!- AquaLoqua has quit ("Dana"). 13:31:33 fizzie: being sarcastic? :P 13:32:01 my only real feat here is patience, i doubt anyone else could play this for this long without succeeding. 13:33:01 but, enough for today, it's in god's hands now whether i succeed tomorrow or on sunday 13:33:09 if i don't, it's going to be a rough monday :P 13:33:55 actually i'll play another half an hour, this day is going to be wasted anyway, due to certain social events :< 13:36:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:41:35 +ul ((<)(>)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^ 13:41:37 <>><><<>><<><>><><<><>><<>><><<>><<><>><<>><><<><>><><<>><<><>><><<><>><<>><><<><>><><<>><<><>><<>><><<>><<><>><><<><>><<>><><<> ...too much output! 13:49:45 o 13:51:02 +ul ((o)(k)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^ 13:51:03 okkokookkookokkokookokkookkokookkookokkookkokookokkokookkookokkokookokkookkokookokkokookkookokkookkokookkookokkokookokkookkokookkookokkookkokookokkokookkookokkookkokookkookokkokookokkookkokookokkokookkookokkokookokkookkokookkookokkookkokookokkokookkookokko ...too much output! 13:58:29 hm that's funny 13:58:59 hi ais 13:59:00 hi ais523 13:59:04 hi ehird 13:59:26 * ais523 thinks they wrote the world's slowest Underload interpreter yesterday 13:59:31 ais523: do you know why it prints twice as much of the second program as the first, despite only differing in the printed characters? 13:59:58 (thutubot) 14:00:50 oerjan: it only breaks after the end of an S command 14:01:05 it finishes the string it's on before realising there's too much output 14:01:14 But the only change was the characters inside ()s. 14:01:23 as fizzie said 14:01:35 < and > are two characters in Thutu 14:01:39 each 14:01:40 oh 14:01:50 why? 14:01:59 it escapes all punctuation marks 14:02:03 ah 14:02:06 so that the unescaped versions can be used to avoid collisions 14:02:09 with the input 14:02:34 Coincidentally, "kokko" (which is an often-occurring substring in that output) is the Finnish word for a bonfire. 14:03:51 Kokko, kokoo kokoon koko kokko 14:04:03 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 14:04:21 is "Kokko" actually a name? i never checked. 14:04:44 oh 14:04:46 actually it's 14:05:03 "Kokko, kokoo kokoon koko kokko." "Koko kokkoko?" "Koko kokko." 14:05:16 does that mean something? 14:05:26 Kokko, please build the whole bonfire 14:05:30 the whole bonfire? 14:05:33 the whole bonfire. 14:06:02 -!- jix has joined. 14:06:16 * oerjan now understands kokko, and the -ko suffix 14:06:49 "koota" is kinda "to gather up" or something similar 14:07:15 in third person becomes "kokoa", "kokoo" is the colloquial way to say it 14:07:46 err, becomes "kokoa" in imperative, also in third person, but that was not used in the sentence 14:07:58 "koko" is "whole"/"entire" 14:08:48 "kokoon" doesn't really mean anything there, it's like "build into a state of being built". 14:08:52 build is a bad verb for that 14:09:07 anyway, hope you enjoy your new vague knowledge about finnish. 14:09:11 i need to read stuff now 14:09:12 -> 14:09:14 http://www.hvafor.no/article/setninger-best-ende-av-kun-like-ord.html 14:10:40 languages make me tickle 14:10:43 -> 14:19:36 There's another phrase a bit like that involving the word "kasvain" (tumor), the interjection "kas vain" (denoting vaguely something like being surprised), the adjective "vaivoin" ('with difficulty') and the verb "kasvaa" (to grow). 14:19:47 It's not as obviously silly as the "kokko" one, though. 14:19:56 -!- oklokok has joined. 14:20:00 http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Language_of_Finland 14:21:27 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:22:14 I like the little-known fact there. 14:23:54 http://paste.eso-std.org/j 14:24:02 ^ my Underload interpreter in Thue 14:24:15 although I forgot how Thue did input when I wrote that so the program it runs is hardcoded 14:25:21 eep 14:26:18 it's the slowest Underload interp I know 14:27:00 How slow is it, compared to, say, fungot's brainfuck interpreter running the brainfuck underload one? 14:27:01 fizzie: use string=? and char=? to test the quality of those awake hours though :p. 14:27:24 fizzie: even slower I think 14:27:25 fungot: Uh, how exactly am I supposed to do that? 14:27:26 fizzie: although the statement you responded to a comment i made) 14:27:58 For exampy the prase "Sorry, I didn't hear correctly what you said, please repeat that?" is spelled "Anteeksi, en oikein kuullut, mitä sanoitte, olkaa kiltti ja toistakaa?" and pronounced as "hä?" 14:27:59 :P 14:28:17 well, that's just "huh?" 14:28:30 but i lolled a bit 14:28:56 :-D 14:29:41 "Juoksentelisimmekohan" was in my finnish book in lower secondary 14:29:50 The page continues -- or "mitäh?" or "vittu puhu suomee!"; those are just "what?" and "[expletive] speak Finnish!" 14:30:04 i usually say "ö" for "yes" 14:30:18 A cat was saying that, with a dog going "Skulle vi springa lite hit och dit utan någon särskilt ändamål" 14:30:31 Or then the dog was saying it in finnish, I forget... the art was rather poor anyway 14:30:59 "e" for "no", but that's common 14:31:05 the rest can usually be done using "o" 14:31:39 Deewiant: That might be where the Uncyclopedia article got it from. 14:31:47 Indeed 14:32:19 Hence I related the tale so that all may partake in this interesting tidbit of Uncyclopedia history 14:33:03 we thank you for thaat 14:33:51 The one quote I remember from my Finnish book was the one about using relative pronouns correctly: "At home I spoke about the tiger to mother, who was kept locked in [her] cage." -- the relative clause was supposedly referring to the tiger, not the mother. 14:33:55 The text was about agglutinative languages, of course. 14:34:27 fizzie: I think that's ambiguous. 14:34:33 not in finnish 14:34:37 (In the Finnish version the word for cage was "häkissään", which includes the possessive suffix.) 14:34:37 oh 14:34:44 yeah it's not amb 14:35:04 "Kotona kerroin tiikeristä äidille, jota pidettiin lukittuna häkissään." 14:35:08 "Kotona puhuin tiikeristä äidille, joka oli lukittuna häkissään?" 14:35:11 right 14:35:19 yeah, that's unambiguous, means the mother is in her own cage. 14:35:45 right, true 14:35:52 Something like that. I think Korpela's pages might have that quote. :p 14:35:53 makes no sense but fine 14:35:54 :-P 14:35:59 $ time ./thue.pl ulhello.t 14:36:00 Hello, world! 14:36:01 "jota" refers to the words just before it, unless there's a pronoun that changes the referent. 14:36:01 real0m10.081s 14:36:03 user0m9.809s 14:36:04 sys0m0.044s 14:36:24 and that's just the (Hello, world!)S program 14:36:36 The sentence itself is weird, though. The mother is in her own cage? What's she doing in there? 14:36:47 "Kotona kerroin tiikeristä äidille, jonka täytyi elää vangittuna häkissään." says google. 14:36:49 Deewiant: protecting herself from the nearby mobile phone mast 14:36:51 "...tiger to mother, which..." is about the mother, "...that tiger to mother, which..." refers to the tiger, but that sounds bad in finnish, there's really no simple way to say it right. 14:37:21 err 14:37:24 just flip the word order 14:37:28 actually there is in this case, just flip yeah 14:37:32 "Kotona kerroin äidille tiikeristä, "... 14:37:42 i assumed there wasn't, because i thought that was the point 14:37:52 there often isn't 14:37:55 I'm not sure if it's fitting or not that we're discussing Finnish in #esoteric ;-) 14:38:19 the metalanguage is english, that's all that matters 14:38:25 Yes, and the point of the sentence was just to illustrate how "joka" very easily refers to the previous words. 14:38:47 Although I'm not sure... in some families, who knows. 14:38:48 It always refers to the previous word. 14:39:08 "kerroin siitä tiikeristä äidille, jota eniten rakastan" 14:39:46 you can change the referent artificially, and sometimes it even sounds okay, even though i didn't feel like trying to find such an example. 14:40:14 if there's a set of tigers, which you're choosing the loveliest from, that refers to the tiger. 14:40:55 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol. 14:40:57 No it doesn't, it's just incorrect. :-P 14:41:03 oklokokko. 14:41:07 Deewiant: no. 14:41:20 "Kerroin eniten rakastamastani tiikeristä äidille." ;-) 14:41:33 a sentence meaning the same doesn't really prove much. 14:41:54 i don't fail at finnish, if i did, i'd change finnish to retroactively be right. 14:42:36 admittedly it does sound weird, it's a bit poetic. it's not incorrect. 14:43:08 your tiger is incorrect. 14:43:08 It doesn't sound weird; it means "I told the mother whom I most love of that tiger." 14:43:09 -> 14:43:18 And I'm trying to prove it. :-P 14:43:36 it can mean that, but it can also refer to the tiger. 14:43:40 http://fi.wikibooks.org/wiki/Suomen_kieli/Sis%C3%A4lt%C3%B6 is unfortunately blank 14:43:44 No, it cannot. :-P 14:43:51 fizzie: help me out here. 14:44:04 "se tiikeri on äidin mieleen, jota eniten rakastan" 14:44:10 Wrong. 14:44:28 You'd lose a point for that in an essay. :-P 14:44:45 no i wouldn't. ask any native. 14:44:47 it has to be "se tiikeri, jota eniten rakastan, on äidin mieleen" 14:44:52 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 14:44:55 I am native and I tried to ask fizzie 14:45:07 yes, that was the joke 14:45:25 I saw the joke and ignored it 14:45:28 "se tiikeri, jota eniten rakastan, on äidin mieleen" is definitely better 14:46:21 but it's common to change the referent using a pronoun, it's not wrong, just usually doesn't sound nearly as good. 14:46:27 actually that's a relative, not an indefinite, pronoun. 14:46:48 true. 14:47:04 But the wikibook fails anyway. 14:47:33 I do think "se tiikeri on äidin mieleen, jota eniten rakastan" sounds weird, but I also do think the relative clause there is still referring to the mother. 14:47:37 Well, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_grammar#Relative_pronouns says "refers to the previous word" 14:48:39 Hmm, I wonder if I have any old finnish books around 14:48:50 if you both believe it, i will wait for proof. 14:48:58 Generally on these kinds of debates I just check http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/kielenopas/index.html but I can't seem to find anything relevant right now. 14:49:01 not that i will believe you if you can prove you're right. 14:49:09 but you may have to believe me. 14:49:21 Are we distracting you from your running, by the way? 14:49:30 oh no, you're distracting me from reading 14:49:32 hi ais523 14:49:49 hi ehird 14:50:06 And why do I keep adding a space after a trailing ? in sentences still. It's been at least five years since that was last necessary to avoid the question-answering bot. 14:50:26 "se oppilas puhuu, jolla on puheenvuoro" 14:50:36 "se oppilas kertokoon mielipiteensä, jolla on puheenvuoro" 14:50:47 i'm so sure i'm right i could eat a horse. 14:51:13 evil plenker 14:51:22 How does eating a horse help? 14:51:41 you would be afraid of me, and thusly tell me anything i want to hear. 14:51:43 Anyway, yes, in those examples I would interpret it to refer to the student. 14:51:49 fizzie: Why oid the bot? :P 14:52:28 ehird: The bot was just a bit annoying when trying to have a real conversation. Should've made it name-triggered instead of question-mark-triggered, really. 14:52:45 Eh, annoying bots are cool beanios 14:52:46 fizzie: naturally, that's one of the cases where it sounds natural. that's the exact same construct, it's just you'd put the relative clause after the referent if it was any longer, so it doesn't look natural for longer examples. 14:52:49 http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/kielenopas/7.9.html#joka 14:52:57 that was a lot of natural 14:53:05 hmm 14:53:11 he doesn't say whether it's right or not 14:53:14 Seuraavassa taas joka-sanan viittauksen kohteeksi tarjoutuu ensisijaisesti sana ”nelostiellä”. Lukija kyllä ymmärtää tämän tulkinnan mahdottomuuden ja hakee kohteen aiempaa. Mutta lukija rasittuu aivan turhaan. 14:53:18 > Ohitimme Möttösten auton nelostiellä, jossa istui viisi henkeä. 14:53:28 Ohitimme niiden Möttösten auton, jotka olivat naapureitamme Kittilässä. 14:53:28 Tuolla on sen miehen koira, jota ehdotettiin isännöitsijäksi. 14:53:33 that's what i did. 14:53:34 He never says "right" or "wrong", it's not like it's a binary thing. 14:53:46 Ah, there he says "right" 14:53:46 Joskus tämäntapaiset tilanteet hoidetaan seuraavalla tavalla, joka on muo­dol­li­ses­ti kielen sääntöjen mukainen: 14:53:53 O_o at the copy-paste 14:54:02 firefox fails at ­ ? 14:54:44 More likely whatever you paste it in is the one that fails. 14:54:54 irssi? 14:54:56 yeah he says "the reader will find this confusing", but that's bullcrap, i'm not talking about "finnish that sounds pretty", i'm just telling you i'm technically right. 14:54:57 The soft hypens are, after all, part of the text, and should be copied. 14:54:59 the best kind of right. 14:55:20 right 14:55:42 Welp, I learned something today 14:55:50 Deewiant: The hyphens you pasted there are soft, it's just that terminal emulators don't much bother with that stuff. 14:56:06 fizzie: I figured Firefox's "view source" wouldn't bother either 14:56:11 but I guess it did. 14:56:14 ...can i go now, or will there be more linguistics to argue about? 14:56:51 psygnisfive would be so pissed were he here 14:57:10 Run, oklopol, run. (Or read, as the case may be.) 14:57:11 how's that 14:57:12 wb ais523 14:57:27 Deewiant: well he's a linguist, but he couldn't really contribute 14:57:31 well, I have an improved version of my Underload in Thue now which actulaly takes input 14:57:33 let me paste it 14:57:40 fizzie: yeah, right, i shallll -> 14:58:08 http://paste.eso-std.org/k 14:58:26 I have some ideas as to how to optimise it, but I'll stick with that for the time being 14:58:34 now all I need is to tweak it a bit to do Underlambda Core in Thue 14:58:41 I have a new project, you see 14:58:49 which is to get all known TC esolangs to compile to each other 14:58:57 and I'm hoping to do it by using Underlambda as an intermediate lang 14:59:21 the idea is to have Underlambda as a high-level tarpit, that sounds like a contradiction but basically it can be done with only a few commands and loads and loads of libraries 14:59:54 and Underlambda Core = Underload with different I/O 15:00:14 incidentally, just adding one more command to Underload leads to all sorts of beauty 15:00:28 the command is n, which replaces the stack with () if it has exactly one element 15:00:40 http://www.netsoc.tcd.ie/~mu/cgi-bin/shortpath.cgi?from=Hitler&to=List%20of%20Pokemon%20(241-260) 15:00:58 hi ehird and ais523 15:01:10 ehird: have you got KDE to work? :) 15:01:22 hi AnMaster 15:01:28 seen my Underload-in-Thue? 15:01:32 no 15:01:34 link? 15:01:42 http://paste.eso-std.org/k 15:01:42 not that I know Thue so wouldn't help I guess 15:01:48 luckily it doesn't open in a new window atm 15:01:51 because ehird changed it 15:01:58 ehird++ 15:02:00 for that change 15:02:03 actually, i changed it 'cuz of a bug 15:02:09 bug in what? 15:02:10 and will probably change it back when i fix said bu 15:02:11 g 15:02:37 ais523, I don't know Thue, so... 15:02:48 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thue 15:02:50 it's very simple 15:02:56 one of the most tarpitty tarpits around 15:03:04 AnMaster doesn't know what thue is? 15:03:07 jesus christ 15:03:10 I know what it is 15:03:15 but I don't know the syntax 15:03:18 ... 15:03:29 it is not a language I can program in 15:03:33 or read programs in 15:03:51 ehird, "not knowing a language" != "not knowing about a language" 15:04:04 well that interpreter's mostly generated code anyway, to deal with all the possibilities for characters inside strings 15:04:19 it doesn't allow < and > inside strings, but Underload's specified to not allow those 15:04:31 It's funny that the inverse path is just two clicks; List of Pokemon -> Time travel -> Adolf Hitler. 15:04:45 fizzie: XD 15:05:33 anyway, my main eso achievement of yesterday was an Underlambda Special -> Underlambda Core compiler written as an Underlambda header file 15:05:44 ais523, nice 15:05:55 but unfortunately nobody but me knows any of the languages involved so they won't be able to tell what sort of achievement that is 15:06:21 ehird, still on GoboLinux? 15:06:26 i know underlambda 15:06:27 kinda 15:06:39 ehird: well I changed some things and didn't tell anyone 15:06:55 I want the language to be right first time for my Grand Unified Esolang Project 15:07:09 "Execution consists of picking, from the list of rules, an arbitrary rule whose original string exists as a substring somewhere in the program state" 15:07:13 random basically? 15:07:13 whereby I write compilers from Underlambda to all known TC esolangs, and compilers from all known TC esolangs to Underlambda 15:07:17 AnMaster: yes, at random 15:07:31 although deterministic Thue interpreters normally produce the same results and run faster 15:07:32 ais523, then getting the order of IO correct is very hard 15:07:35 if not impossible 15:07:43 no, it's easy 15:07:48 really? 15:08:02 "Input is performed using a special rule like this: 15:08:02 ::=::: 15:08:02 " 15:08:23 so it requires the input string to contain something that will make it change to the new state 15:08:29 AnMaster: usually you just have one spot in the string where you are actually doing rewriting. 15:08:38 oklopol, hm 15:08:44 i mean 15:08:56 but how would that work for input, since you *can't* know what the user will enter 15:09:10 [Fri Nov 14 2008] [15:07:59] you just arrange things so that earlier I/O removes substrings that block later I/O 15:09:11 [Fri Nov 14 2008] [15:08:39] for instance, ad::= world!/bc::=Hello,/::=/abcd 15:09:15 (where / is newline) 15:09:15 ah 15:09:17 you can have something like 0001100110X0110101, and X is kind of the "turtle", not sure what a good term would be 15:09:23 oh 15:09:27 you just arrange things so that earlier I/O removes substrings that block later I/O 15:09:34 for instance, ad::= world!/bc::=Hello,/::=/abcd 15:09:48 input is a problem 15:09:52 oklopol: it acts sort of like an IP but you can have more of them 15:10:04 IP might work, but it's not exactly the same thing 15:10:05 oklopol, yes that was what I meant 15:10:06 oklopol: yes, luckily Underload bans various characters so you can rely on them not being in the input 15:10:12 Underlambda bans # and | 15:10:20 and Underload bans <>{}" 15:10:29 ais523: so this project will replace c-intercal? ;) 15:10:36 just treat C as an esolang for it :P 15:10:49 ais523, how will you know for sure that after user input there will actually exist something that is valid for user input? 15:10:51 err 15:11:03 that is valid for new state* 15:11:04 I mean 15:11:14 since order is unknown 15:11:20 ehird: no, it's just a different project to work on 15:11:21 although there will have to be an INTERCAL->Underlambda compiler involved somewhere, of course 15:11:31 treat c as an esolang 15:11:35 AnMaster: basically, you enclose it in known characters 15:11:36 you get c->intercal and intercal->c 15:11:36 ais523, to prevent another rule running before the input it would have to only be valid after input 15:11:45 ais523: if you get lazy, i volunteer for making some of the compilers, in case that wasn't a given. 15:11:52 ais523, and I can't see any pattern matching or? 15:11:58 and you make sure that nothing in the input might match the head of the rule 15:12:11 no pattern matching is the main annoyance of Thue, you have to write all the patterns out by hand 15:12:16 oklopol: thanks, probably I'll need it 15:12:19 ais523, how do you make sure that other rule isn't run before? 15:12:21 I need to finish speccing Underlambda first 15:12:25 oklopol had a thue-alike 15:12:28 that used actual graphic things 15:12:29 it was 2d 15:12:33 ais523, since order isn't defined 15:12:38 AnMaster: as long as you describe what you do logically, the order doesn't really matter 15:12:40 foobar blah 15:12:41 quuxz = etc 15:12:41 bazzz foobar 15:12:42 except, aligned 15:12:55 not TC though; len(replacement) must == len(pattern) 15:12:59 my Underload interp uses markers which are numbers in angle brackets to mark bits of the code that haven't been calculated yet 15:13:11 -!- oklokok has joined. 15:13:15 they can't normally move past each other except in a few cases, so it has to finish calculating a bit of the program before it can be used 15:13:55 although, it is a pipelined Underload interp, it can start on one command before it's finished the one before 15:13:55 e.g. if you write aa both the closing parens will probably be added before either opening paren 15:14:02 ais523, well. lets say you want the user to input a string, and no other state may be run before the user have input something. Sure you can ban certain bits from being entered. Fine. But how do you know that the string the user enter will suddenly enable one of the other states to be run 15:14:03 ? 15:14:06 but that doesn't matter, if you run, say, ^ or * after that it'll wait for the parens to be added before continuing 15:14:08 say you want this basically: 15:14:09 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:14:13 Enter your name: 15:14:16 Hello 15:14:20 in Thue 15:14:35 name may contain letters and spaces 15:14:39 nothing else 15:14:40 AnMaster: well, say you know the name will be letters and spaces 15:14:52 you can have, say, <1><2><3> as the initial string 15:14:57 replace <2> with ::: (i.e. input) 15:14:57 right 15:15:02 indeed 15:15:15 then you replace <1>A with <1><4>A and <4>A with output A 15:15:23 -!- oklokok has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:15:24 <1>B with <1><4>B and <4>B with output B 15:15:26 and so on 15:15:29 -!- oklopol has joined. 15:15:35 ah you have to special case for all possible values 15:15:38 I see 15:15:40 yep 15:15:48 ais523, what if the user just hits enter 15:15:57 AnMaster: you have a replacement for <1><3> which runs at the end 15:16:01 right 15:16:03 and which can obviously only run once the string's been output 15:16:27 ais523, how would you duplicate a string? 15:16:33 say you want to output the name several times 15:16:45 AnMaster: with difficulty, the string duplicate thing's probably the longest part 15:16:55 heh 15:17:03 and this language is actually tc? 15:17:05 basically, you have a marker which runs through the input changing A to A<5A>, B to B<5B> and so on 15:17:22 AnMaster: you just saw a proof it is 15:17:25 then you have a rule to change <5A>A to A<5A>, <5A>B to B<5A>, and so on 15:17:31 oklopol, true 15:17:35 but hard to believe 15:17:39 dunno 15:17:50 so the <5> versions end up sorted at one end, and the original string at the other 15:17:50 ais523, hm 15:17:54 sk combinators take like an hour to make 15:17:56 then you can de-<5> them 15:17:58 and it's conceptually trivial 15:18:06 ais523, right 15:18:14 ais523, what if you want to match ::= ? 15:18:21 or match ::: 15:18:23 you have to match it in bits, that's a syntax thing 15:18:27 ah right 15:18:31 say by changing : to ; separately 15:18:38 programming it is actually simpler than, for instance, boolfuck, because you can extend from within, it's kinda like a langauge with two stacks. 15:18:40 or some other encoding yeah 15:18:44 (btw, that's what <88> is about in my Underload interp, it's so I can have replacements starting with ~) 15:18:54 it's just when moving around, you have to list all the possible characters that may be next to the ip. 15:18:59 if you want to be able to skip over them 15:19:07 yes 15:19:08 *language 15:19:20 is there really an IP? 15:19:25 not sure that makes much sense if you haven't actually programmed in it, but the point is it's simple. 15:19:26 the bulk of the Underload interp is to allow arbitrary characters to skip over /other/ arbitrary characters 15:19:27 you can make an ip 15:19:35 AnMaster: all Thue programs I've seen start off by implementing an IP 15:19:43 the lang doesn't have one by default, but you can write one 15:19:43 i'm sad that i missed MUD 15:19:45 s 15:19:45 by making all rules explicitly only do stuff to a place where you have some kinda ip character. 15:19:54 well you could make them massively parallel by not using an ip 15:20:06 AnMaster: yes, but that's more complicated to do. 15:20:11 well true 15:20:26 i think my ski had some part where it can do two things in either order. 15:20:39 oklopol: there's lots of nondeterminism in the Underload interp 15:20:45 because commands are run asynchronously 15:20:51 apart from ^ and S 15:20:51 oh and since Game of Life is TC and very very parallel it should be able to take advantage of multi-core computers 15:20:53 ;) 15:21:03 (^ because it needs to know what to run before running it, S to make sure output happens in the right order) 15:21:11 ais523: yeah, but my ski doesn't work like that, evaluates lazily 15:21:15 err 15:21:26 yeah, lazily, always the outermsot 15:21:28 *outermost 15:21:41 (i think. don't remember exactly, something like that anyway) 15:21:46 * ais523 likes nondeterministic evaluation orders 15:21:47 ais523, is underlambda documented somewhere? 15:21:55 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underlambda says "no text" 15:21:56 nondeterminism is great 15:22:10 why am i here. 15:22:10 -> 15:22:17 ehe 15:22:19 heh* 15:22:45 AnMaster: not publically yet 15:22:49 I want to work out the details first 15:22:57 but think Underload + preprocessor + different I/O + standard libraries 15:23:06 ais523: give me an idea for a lang 15:23:09 with the standard libraries normally optimised by interps 15:23:18 ehird: I have a really crazy idea for a joke lang 15:23:24 o? 15:23:27 basically, all programs are numbers 15:23:45 all programs ARE numbers 15:23:45 :p 15:23:48 when you enter a number, it goes to anagolf, looks for the problem with that number, then takes majority opinion of the non-cheat entries for it 15:23:54 lol! 15:24:01 ais523, well not really interesting if there is no page about the syntax 15:24:02 non-cheat? 15:24:10 since it is kind of hard to understand then 15:24:13 so all sorts of well-known problems are very short 15:24:15 Deewiant: special-casing the tests 15:24:22 i.e. it only works on the inputs actually tested, nothing else 15:24:22 I'm *NOT* going to reverse engineer that interpreter ;P 15:24:31 ehird: ah, meh :-/ 15:24:36 AnMaster: the thing you saw above was an Underload interp, Underload's well-known 15:24:42 ah 15:24:47 Underlambda syntax is the same as for Underload, it just has a few more commands 15:24:52 ais523, you talked about underlambda around the same time 15:24:54 which confused me 15:24:56 ok 15:25:02 ais523: no it has "" 15:25:03 too similar names 15:25:04 as extra syntax 15:25:06 ehird: oh, yes 15:25:10 but that's just preprocessor stuff 15:25:29 it becomes ((:::***)(:::::::::::::::***************))-like stuff once it's been preprocessed 15:25:30 btw ais523 when will you finish overload 15:25:45 ehird: probably never, as it's probably impossible to implement in a reasonable length of time 15:25:55 :( 15:25:56 why? 15:25:57 whereas for Underlambda I'm actually trying to make it optimisable and compilable 15:26:15 Underlambda is sort of fixed-Overload, learning from the lessons of what went wrong there 15:27:01 ais523, no wiki entry on overload either? 15:27:07 so what is that lang 15:27:09 no, it definitely hasn't been released 15:27:16 Overload is the lang that Underload is a tarpit version of 15:27:22 hm 15:27:29 and what stuff does overload add? 15:27:30 it has pointers 15:27:33 and gotos 15:27:35 heh 15:27:42 * ehird watches AnMaster cringr 15:27:44 *cringe 15:27:48 well, it makes me cringe too 15:27:51 without actually seeing him cringe, heh. 15:27:58 ais523, fun, but seems like very very opposite to the underload paradigm 15:28:00 goto + pointers + Underload is a worrying combination 15:28:05 also I didn't cringe ehird! 15:28:08 Overload was meant to work well in /every/ paradigm 15:28:20 ah 15:28:23 well that makes sense 15:28:30 also I assume ehird is back on OS X 15:28:53 [15:28] [CTCP] Received CTCP-VERSION reply from ehird: Colloquy 2.1 (3761) - Mac OS X 10.4.11 (Intel) - http://colloquy.info. 15:28:56 easy enough to check 15:28:59 true 15:29:12 ais523, anyway he was nicer when he was on linux 15:29:15 ais523: wat 15:29:17 wonder if there is any connection 15:29:22 probably not 15:29:29 please, don't blow up an argument between you two now 15:29:35 oh, AnMaster is talking about me? 15:29:40 MOMENTOUS THINGS are happening in esolang programming 15:29:41 i have him on /ignore, so no possibility of argument 15:29:48 indeed 15:30:05 although he's pissing me off indirectly, as it happens 15:30:10 ais523: how momentous? 15:30:10 ais523, anyway what are these momentus things? 15:30:18 and if you don't want to see an argument, you can just ignore them both! 15:30:19 ous* 15:30:27 Deewiant: compilation from everything into everything else 15:30:30 it's my goal with Underlambda 15:30:33 heh 15:30:42 to make it low-level enough for everything to be able to implement it easily 15:30:49 but high-level enough to make it good at implementing things itself 15:30:49 ais523, hm I really want to learn about it's syntax 15:30:50 I suppose you'll implement every frontend and backend as well 15:31:01 yes, that would be nice 15:31:11 ais523: 15:31:13 the great thing is that the frontends and backends can be implemented in any esolang to begin with 15:31:14 you need to do underlambda->underlambda 15:31:15 well, at least you have something to do 15:31:17 and underlambda->underlambda 15:31:17 then compiled into Underlambda 15:31:20 ehird: I have that already 15:31:21 ais523, hm what about stuff like file IO and such for funge-98? 15:31:26 first thing I did 15:31:26 hahahah 15:31:33 ais523: i suppose it's just cat(1)? 15:31:34 that's cheatin 15:31:35 g 15:31:36 I don't have an Underlambda interp in Underlambda 15:31:38 ehird: no 15:31:40 you need to actually write a compiler 15:31:41 but I do have a compiler 15:31:43 that reduces it into simpler things 15:31:44 XD 15:31:55 atm I have an Underlambda Special -> Underlambda Core compiler 15:31:56 apart from I/O 15:32:05 (the tiers have more descriptive names now, yay) 15:32:10 Underlambda Core is Underload minus S 15:32:37 ais523, well it really locks me out since I have never seen any spec of underload 15:32:43 while it seems ehird have 15:32:45 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload 15:32:48 err 15:32:50 Underlambda is that + a few extra commands 15:32:53 undelambda* 15:32:54 I meant 15:32:57 .. 15:33:02 ais523, they have too similar name 15:33:05 names* 15:33:08 ehird has seen an older version but I changed most of the extra commands since 15:33:12 so really you're in the same boat 15:33:50 ais523, well what makes it easy? And since you said it should be possible to compile anything to it, what about Funge-98 with SOCK and FILE and such? 15:33:51 Q/(((!(a(:^)*):^)):)~^ 15:33:52 n/((a(^!^)a~*(^!^)a*a((^~!^)()(^!^))a*~^)((e%)S))~^ 15:33:53 !/((!)((e%)S))~^ 15:33:55 ^/((^)((e%)S))~^ 15:33:56 */((~!*(^!^))((e%)S))~^ 15:33:58 ~/((~!~(^!^)~(^!^))((e%)S))~^ 15:33:59 a/((a(^!^)a*a(:(^!^)a~*a~(^~!^)a~*a*~^)*(^!^))((e%)S))~^ 15:34:01 :/((:(^!^)~(^!^))((e%)S))~^ 15:34:02 (/(( 15:34:04 )/)(^!^)):(^!^)a~*a~(^~!^)a~*a*~^ 15:34:05 #/(^~!^) 15:34:07 hm 15:34:07 |/ 15:34:08 / 15:34:10 I'm planning to stick to BF-complete I/O for the grand translation 15:34:13 ais523, and what is that? 15:34:24 AnMaster: the same I/O capabilities brainfuck has 15:34:28 anyway, see my paste above 15:34:29 ais523, no that paste 15:34:30 .... 15:34:36 it's an Underlambda -> Underlambda compiler 15:34:42 written as an Underlambda header file 15:34:43 ais523, hm. 15:34:57 think: Underlambda before the slash, Underload afterwards 15:35:04 right 15:35:09 although the (e%)S is just a placeholder for an error routine atm, I'm not sure what to do on error 15:35:36 ais523, well are those all the extra commands underlambda add? 15:35:48 Q and n are two of the special commands it adds 15:35:53 also if it is added to fungot, what would the command be? ^ul is in use 15:35:54 AnMaster: unless they're pixel hunting games. i designed my own gui in sdl was too slow. 15:35:56 # means "start of program" 15:36:03 and Underlambda abbreviates to udl 15:36:06 that's the file extension 15:36:09 ah 15:36:23 maybe I should start calling it Uddle, it would be easier to remember separately from Underload 15:36:42 ais523, so what about other IO than just bf-complete ones? 15:37:02 I mean funge98 got more IO 15:37:02 AnMaster: that doesn't interest me as much from a programming point of view, because mathematically it makes no difference 15:37:08 as you can always use something like PSOX 15:37:14 *cringe* 15:37:56 hmm, it seems like this is a good day for cross-language esolang interpretation: "Brainfuck interpreter written in [[Redivider]] by [[User:MizardX]]." 15:38:08 ais523, hm? 15:38:14 ah 15:38:15 from the wiki recent changes 15:38:15 came out today 15:38:18 I haven't had a look at it 15:38:20 I think 15:38:28 Date:Friday 14 November 2008 00:58 15:38:30 ihope will be pleased 15:38:33 so today if you use the UTC sense 15:38:46 ehird: ihope = warrie 15:38:50 yes 15:38:51 i know 15:38:56 but i'm calling him ihope 15:39:00 as he has various monikers that he's used here 15:39:05 ihope, dogface, warrie, perhaps more 15:39:10 iirc he used something else on sine, too 15:40:06 hm this Redivider, what paradigm? 15:40:15 I can't figure out from a quick look at the wiki page 15:40:42 link for me to click on: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider 15:40:51 Probably string rewriting... 15:40:57 hm 15:41:13 so what is all that about parsers then 15:41:49 I don't think it's rewriting, it looks to me more like a procedural lang that uses regexen and strings as the main data type 15:41:56 nah 15:41:59 it's a TC parser 15:42:09 i know because i was there when it was inventedd 15:42:10 yes 15:42:21 so, effectively a procedural lang, but with backtracking 15:42:33 hm 15:42:56 there are no examples of hello world and such either 15:42:58 :/ 15:42:58 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:43:03 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:43:09 going for a while (moving to a different connection); I'll be back soon 15:43:16 Limited back-tracking. Only if the first item in a block fails. Any other, and the program breaks. 15:43:28 MizardX, what does hello world look like? 15:43:30 in it 15:43:36 main: "Hello World!" 15:43:40 heh 15:44:17 MizardX, so main: have a special meaning? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider doesn't mention that 15:44:28 hee, i was the one who made ihope make ()s optional 15:44:28 ^_^ 15:44:37 It doesn't say anything about how to invoke the program. 15:44:40 and also told him what the [] vs () stuff should be like. 15:44:41 ah 15:45:03 MizardX-: main, I think 15:45:05 name a parser main 15:45:43 In the parser I wrote in python, I made it so that the user have to specify what predicate to start with. 15:46:03 just make it run main with a string being stdin, and print the result 15:46:09 iirc that's what we decided on 15:46:57 ok 15:47:12 also, post your interp! I was gonan write one once 15:47:17 Should the language allow multiple declarations with same name, but different argument counts? (Overloading) --MizardX 00:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC) 15:47:18 ^ no 15:47:29 What do do when trying to call a declaration while a variable shadows it's name? --MizardX 00:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC) 15:47:29 ^ try to call the variable, and fail if it's not a parser 15:47:35 How to run the "program"? E.g. select a starting predicate and an input string. --MizardX 00:08, 11 November 2008 (UTC) 15:47:35 ^ i just told you this one 15:47:39 Shouldn't "[" "]" have it's own non-terminal? --MizardX 00:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC) 15:47:39 ^ probably 15:47:57 thanks 15:48:15 np 15:56:11 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 15:58:28 I made it so that it reads from stdin if no input file was specified. python redivider.py bf.rd helloworld.bf 15:58:46 Where could I upload the code? 15:59:10 wb me 15:59:56 Was that directed at me? Or you welcoming yourself back? ais523 16:00:04 it's me welcoming myself back 16:00:07 because I'm on a bouncer 16:00:11 people can't tell if I'm here if I don't 16:00:14 except from ehird 16:00:21 um 16:00:23 yes they can 16:00:26 /who ais523 16:00:35 well, except by pinging now and again just in case 16:00:45 or polling some other way 16:08:50 Well... until other arrangements can be made: http://snippets.dzone.com/posts/show/6506 -- Redivider interpreter written in Python 16:09:14 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:09:14 MizardX: is that yours? 16:09:18 yes 16:09:29 -!- Ilari has joined. 16:10:08 Maybe should add 'by MizardX'... 16:41:19 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:42:55 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:58:58 -!- AquaLoqua has joined. 16:59:23 Deewiant, what constitues big in terms of primes? 16:59:39 AquaLoqua: it depends on what you need big primes for 16:59:57 Well, the GIMPS guys have some pretty big primes :-P 17:00:14 13 million digits being the record, I think 17:00:20 Well, I need them for no real reson reall. But would this be considered big/large: 3^7989-2? 17:00:32 yes. pretty big 17:00:44 I'd say a prime's big if writing it out by digits over IRC is a bad idea 17:01:13 I'd say a prime's big if it takes over a day to factorize it 17:01:33 Heh, well, it's only 3812 idigits long, so be GIMPS standards that's nothing 17:01:39 Deewiant: primes are trivial to factorise, if you know in advance they're primes 17:01:51 well, does it count if it took *me* a day to find? :P 17:01:56 ais523: of course you're not supposed to know :-P 17:02:21 also, determining if a number is prime can be done in P-time nowadays, determining its factors if it isn't can't be 17:02:32 But how does one factorise a prime, being the product of itself and one 17:02:38 Oh, it's P? 17:02:44 Then scratch that 17:02:57 quite a recent algorithm, discovered only a couple of years ago IIRC 17:03:08 -!- Mony has joined. 17:03:22 (ais523, isn't only probabilistic? And still a conjecture of sorts?) 17:03:39 *probabalistic :P 17:03:47 AquaLoqua: no, I think it was a definite algorithm, it doesn't tell you the factors though if it isn't 17:03:52 Stuff it, typo night is open 17:03:59 hi 17:04:01 Oh, I see 17:04:03 Hello 17:04:24 hi Mony 17:04:45 Any links ais523? Hell, if it's faster than Miller-Rabin (7 iters) and it's not probab.. [that word] then I'd be better off with it 17:05:04 Mony: http://paste.eso-std.org/k 17:05:10 AquaLoqua: it was in New Scientist IIRC 17:05:25 ais523 ?? 17:05:38 hrmm, I hope they have archives :P 17:05:45 I'm trying to find the original paper 17:05:49 Mony: Underload interp in Thue 17:06:05 lol 17:06:22 AquaLoqua: http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/manindra/algebra/primality_v6.pdf 17:06:27 is the paper that described the algorithm 17:06:51 he-hay, thanks :) 17:07:10 the algorithm itself is on the middle of page 3 17:07:35 Copy that, thanks (thought it was this: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg17523560.500-prime-number-puzzle-solved-at-last.html - but seeing as I don't subscribe I can't tell) 17:09:08 The algorithm (AKS primality test) is fully determistic polynomial time algorithm. But the exponents and constants involved are pretty bad (at least unless GRH is true)... 17:09:22 Ilari: GRH? 17:09:46 Hrmm, so is it practical then? 17:10:15 General Rieman Hypothesis... Note that there later refiniments of the algorithm are asymptotically faster... 17:11:09 IIRC, latest versions are O(beta^6)... 17:12:16 Well, either way, it's a whole let better than the exponential growth for remainder tests 17:12:55 For crypto-grade prime numbers, Miller-Rabin is pretty much the only way to go... 17:12:59 (Which I don't use though, way too slow in comparison to non-deterministic methods that yield acceptable results) 17:13:16 Yeah, that's what I'm using :P But I find I have to validate the larger results 17:13:50 AquaLoqua: Just run enough iterations? 17:13:53 raed somewhere that beyond 7 or so iters. Miller-Rabin has no visible difference in accuracy for numbers with less than 3000 digits 17:14:45 So, I'm not so keen on idly running cycles.. But, it may be worth it as this last one broke the 3000 mark 17:15:50 AquaLoqua: For 7 iters, the probability for false positive is 0.006%... 17:16:04 s/0.006%/<0.006%/ 17:16:28 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p441626313.txt <<< currently compiling this to subleg and running, it does +++>++.<. 17:16:43 subleg? 17:16:48 is that a subleq deriviative 17:16:54 wanted to finish it before saying anything, but as i'm leaving now, i better tell you so i have some incentive to finish it. 17:17:06 err that's just what i hacked up to make it easier to code in subleg. 17:17:06 Heh, I see. Well, I didn't know that one, hrmm, well then I guess it's mroe than enough for the numbers I'm likely to ever reach (having taking a day or so to find 3^7989-2 17:17:43 . means next instruction, #number means the memory slot with offset "number" from current instruction 17:17:50 label:value names a cell 17:17:54 ?label looks up a cell 17:18:04 these are trivial to compile 17:18:20 again, subleg? 17:18:29 *subleq 17:18:31 ah, ok 17:18:32 sorry. 17:18:55 will do [ and ] tonight, after which it's trivial to do bf -> subleq. 17:19:14 AquaLoqua: Real prime number finding algorithms probably first do some trial divisions (because you can test a lot of divisiors faster than doing one round of MR, and such tests eliminate a lot of composites). 17:19:34 this is getting really good for the compile-everything-into-everything-else project 17:19:38 just wanted to compile something to something because that seems to be the hot stuff today. 17:19:49 as bf compiles into lots of things, I just need an Underlambda to BF compiler to simplify half the work 17:19:52 also god i love esolanging 17:20:04 and that should be simple enough, given that an Underload interp exists in BF which loads all its input in advance 17:20:14 (thus you could simply hardcode the input to get a compiler, bundle-an-interp style) 17:20:51 so we'd get underload -> subleq 17:21:00 yes 17:21:03 and underlambda -> subleq 17:21:07 via my underlambda -> underlambda compiler 17:21:16 someone should make a program that had all the compilers, and found the shortest paths between compilations for two given languages. 17:21:19 and then did the compilation 17:21:25 given code and the language names 17:21:26 Heh, yeah, again, I do that. Trial div by all primes less than 100 000. It's fast, sotred as a constant array and so it does end up cathcing most candidates out rather fast. I gues I should really add odd/even filtering, but I'm not sure if a power of three minus two can be odd (you're probably about to dig up a trivial example of that Ilari). Then again, code denisty vs overall efficiancy 17:21:37 anyway, I think Underlambda Special is sufficiently easy to implement that normally it wouldn't need compiling to Underlambda Core first 17:21:40 that's trivial, but might be neat. 17:21:54 but the option's there just in case 17:22:27 also you could kinda tell it how fast compilers are and it could use that as heuristics (== edge costs) when searching for the compilation sequence. 17:22:34 AquaLoqua: Power of 3 must be odd, because 2 can't divide it since 2 and 3 are both primes. So 3^n-2 is odd. 17:22:43 oklopol: sounds like a great followup project 17:23:07 ais523: yes, but that won't take me much more than 30 minutes 17:23:13 even better 17:23:18 but I mean, working on optimising the compilers 17:23:23 and creating more links 17:23:31 e.g. a direct compilation is better than bundle-an-interp, usually 17:23:31 it's just dijkstra + some abstraction + some file stuff 17:23:40 abstraction for getting the graph 17:23:48 yeah 17:24:13 we're going to change the world. 17:24:16 :P 17:24:24 yay, then my gamble paid off. Heh, Ilari you are but the bearer of good news (had I gone Mersenne Primes though, it would've been different - then again there would've the Lucas-Lehmer I could've used, but why bother, there's already a GIMPS) 17:24:53 but, i need to go listen to music and drink alcohol, if i still remember how to do that. 17:24:54 http://paste.eso-std.org/l <--- the output of my Underlambda -> Underload compiler for a very simple program 17:25:25 the program was (x)(y)(z)((X)(Y)(Z))(!)I 17:25:27 originally 17:25:51 but that's what it ends up like when all the machinery to support the I command is added 17:26:14 hmm. actually the compiler could be a bit more complicated, like try multiple compilation paths and find the shortest code produced. 17:26:17 so not very efficient 17:26:34 could use A* and have the heuristic given for each compiler to choose the order in which to try. 17:26:38 and be given a timeout 17:26:49 has anyone started to read my paste above, btw? 17:27:04 that's why I want people to implement Underlambda Special, not Underlambda Core (which is a subset of Underload apart from I/O) 17:27:20 I did, but then I decided that it's clearly not designed for making the compiled programs readable :P 17:27:20 hmm 17:27:23 what's the I command 17:27:26 oklopol: infra 17:27:28 from Joy 17:27:42 i don't know joy 17:27:46 it's sort of like chroot 17:27:47 i'm a very boring guy 17:27:49 it takes the top stack element 17:27:52 and converts it to a stack 17:27:57 and uses that stack temporarily 17:28:03 :o 17:28:04 then once the command's finished, it goes back to the original stack 17:28:17 so ((X)(Y)(Z))(!)I is equivalent to ((X)(Y)) 17:28:32 as the Z gets popped 17:28:57 hmm. 17:29:07 so 17:29:11 takes the top stack element 17:29:13 (!)? 17:29:21 i'm pretty sure that's not what you meant. 17:29:25 infra takes a program and a stack as its args 17:29:30 yeah okay. 17:29:30 so the stack is ((X)(Y)(Z)) 17:29:33 and the program is (!) 17:29:45 ((X)(Y)(Z)!) is ((X)(Y)) 17:29:53 what's the use? i don't have time to think 17:30:02 not a lot in basic Underload 17:30:09 as you could just have used * instead 17:30:18 but it's good for getting the length of a list, for instance 17:30:27 ah 17:30:27 by seeing how many elements are in the resulting stack 17:30:30 also things like sandboxing 17:30:33 "n" 17:30:40 works nicely with that, methinks 17:30:42 yes 17:30:45 it's implemented using it 17:31:39 what happens when you run outta stack? 17:31:50 is that where you see the difference between that and *^? 17:31:50 it prints e% and then starts acting randomly 17:31:54 oh. 17:32:06 but the compiler would be easy to modify 17:32:10 well then i don't see what the difference between that and *^ is 17:32:11 to do proper stack checks 17:32:15 hmm... even exceptions, for that matter 17:32:28 it's not a program that uses the power of I 17:32:33 just a proof-of-concept 17:32:52 for instance, say you want to take the head of a list 17:32:54 hmm. 17:33:03 that's ((A!)_)I 17:33:05 where _ is dip 17:33:08 and A! clears the stack 17:34:48 not easy to do at all without infra 17:35:11 (A is the ultra command btw, it's sort of the opposite of infra, it wraps the entire stack in () as opposed to a which just wraps the top element in ()) 17:36:46 umm, what's dip? :P 17:36:52 my stack terminology is a bit rusty. 17:37:01 oklopol: temporarily remove the top element of the stack, run the command, and put it back again 17:37:06 ~a*^ in Underload 17:37:13 not a typo for dup then :) 17:37:23 e.g. (a)(b)(c)(~)_ is equivalent to (b)(a)(c) 17:37:41 umm. 17:37:49 why isn't it just :^ in underload? 17:38:00 :^ runs something with itself as an argument 17:38:11 (a)(b)(c)(~):^ is quite different to (a)(b)(c)~a*^ 17:38:11 ohhhhh 17:38:19 * oklopol gets it. 17:39:18 i just realized i'm not in any kind of hurry yet 17:39:27 i'll try to quickly implement [ and ] 17:39:48 -!- AquaLoqua has quit ("Dana"). 17:54:23 lol, ended up debuggin my dec :P 17:55:40 inc/dec are three instructions, fetch mempointer, use that mempointer to inc/dec using a constant one or negative one, then normalize the middle instruction 17:56:00 because the memory access is done by setting it's output parameter to mempointer 17:56:07 quite an obvious construction 17:56:13 but 17:56:29 i had the code for inc, and changed it to sub without thinking too much 17:57:00 i actually set the middle instruction's destination register to -memorypointer, and incremented it, instead of setting it to memorypointer and decrementing it 17:57:17 perhaps i should make my debug output show the code, not the assembly instructions 17:57:20 oh, well 17:57:24 now i do need to leave. 17:57:25 -> 17:58:20 lol i don't xD 18:01:30 oklopol: wb, then 18:02:20 the while loop is less trivial than i thought, at least if i want it to be as short as possible. 18:02:38 i initially assumed i'd just write it without thinking 18:08:18 at least nontrivial the way i'm doing all memory action 18:08:31 that is, rewriting parts of instructions to refer to memory cells 18:08:38 the problem is, i need to erase that info 18:08:55 for which i either need a loop or i need to know what i added to the value. 18:09:05 could you erase them immediately after each instruction is run? 18:09:07 and if i do some sorta jump, it's not that easy to know what was removed 18:09:11 as in, have the instructions self-resetting? 18:09:33 umm. 18:09:36 actually 18:09:41 the real problem here 18:09:47 is that i'm an idiot. 18:10:03 i can just subtract the register from itself xD 18:10:12 seriously, that never occurred to me 18:10:14 :DD 18:24:19 okay i have a do while 18:24:49 oklopol: just goto the end of it and you have a while 18:25:50 yes 18:26:37 that was misleading, that was very helpful, i was going to make a separate ==0 logic. 18:27:02 although i probably would've realized that's stupid at some point. 18:28:08 okay, i've basically done bf now. 18:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I won't it to be challenging... puzzle-like.. 18:47:25 i won't either. 18:48:00 oklopol: ah, a topic reference? 18:48:05 bf -> subleq is nice, anyway 18:48:10 bf -> lots of things is nice 18:48:24 as Underlambda -> bf should be relatively easy 18:50:12 i'm naming this language subleg, because it's almost subleq, and because i always typo it to subleg anyway. 18:54:59 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 18:56:42 oklopol 18:56:47 i read a bit of what you were talking about 18:56:49 hmm. something's not working 18:56:53 im not sure if i get it 18:57:29 psygnisfive: it was about the finnish word "joka", a relative pronoun 18:57:40 refers to whatever is directly on the left of it, in the usual case 18:57:51 we argued about whether you can change the referent using another pronoun. 18:58:01 ok? 18:58:11 because why would finns agree on something like that, it's a craaaaaazy language 18:58:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:58:22 hi oerjan 18:58:29 so oklopol 18:58:32 evening 18:58:38 lots of esodevelopments today 18:58:47 im doing this generative syntax thing 18:59:01 where you give the program a set of semantic predicates and it builds a sentence out of them 19:00:06 oerjan: we now have almost a BF -> Subleq compiler (oklopol), a BF -> Redivider compiler (MizardX) and an Underload interp in Thue (ais523) 19:01:05 not bad for a day's work 19:01:09 ic 19:01:46 my interp is very slow, it took 11 seconds to run the stock Hello World program IIRC 19:01:47 still, all of those would have been more impressive in the opposite direction 19:02:03 Subleq -> BF shouldn't be too hard 19:06:48 run(bftosubleg("++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.+..-."),False,[]) 19:06:49 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:06:54 >>> 19:06:54 A B B A 19:07:07 still called subleg? 19:07:56 yes yes, SUBLEq with Great extra syntax 19:08:01 ... 19:08:04 or something like that 19:08:43 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p432311255.txt this is the generated program 19:08:44 MizardX: hm from ais523's interpreter i take it paste.eso-std.org takes pretty big pastes. since you asked where to put things yesterday. 19:09:07 oerjan: what do you think by the way? it's mostly generated code, after all 19:09:13 and I think paste.eso-std.org takes unlimited pastes 19:09:57 Ok, I'll copy it there. 19:10:26 you'll have to ask him how permanent it is i guess... 19:10:58 by grace of ehird, I suspect 19:11:10 hm? 19:11:14 entirely permannet 19:11:16 *permanent 19:11:20 ais523: what about, OMFG IT'S HUGE 19:11:55 unless i become physically or mentally unable to maintain eso-std.org, there is data loss, or I die and nobody takes it over, paste.eso-std.org links should stay up. 19:11:56 and unreadable, too 19:12:02 (or everyone stops using HTTP) 19:12:46 There, http://paste.eso-std.org/q 19:12:47 oerjan: it's mostly generated code 19:13:08 due to the large variety of characters that could occur in an Underload program 19:13:13 I have some ideas as to how to optimise it, though 19:13:21 representing characters in binary, rather than literally 19:13:29 or even better, Huffman codes 19:13:56 ah thue has no way of doing wildcards i guess 19:14:01 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p622341536.txt <<< if anyone is interested in the code 19:14:13 that's one of the cleanest pieces of code i've ever written 19:14:32 (i'm not saying it's readable though.) 19:15:04 well, actually i'm not compiling subleg into subleq 19:15:18 i modified it a bit, because i felt like it. 19:15:19 I am interested but probably I'll read it later 19:15:29 we need a Python -> esolang compiler 19:15:33 basically, if you subtract from -1, the value subtracted is printed 19:15:39 so we can use all the esolang interps written in Python 19:15:48 if you jump to -1, the execution ends 19:16:03 MizardX-: 19:16:03 """ % {'file':__file__} 19:16:05 try sys.argv[0] 19:16:13 i don't have input in the bf compiler yet, but if you subtract -1 from something, you're actually subtracting user input 19:16:22 that's it really 19:16:54 i can write a small spec for subleg if anyone is interested, although it's not exactly that interesting. 19:17:19 actually that whole thing isn't all that interesting, it was quite trivial to make 19:17:38 just a lot of work, mainly because i'm too stubborn to make debugging easy for myself :P 19:18:15 but yeah oerjan is right, the other way would be more impressibe 19:18:17 *impressive 19:18:30 unfortunately that is... incredibly hard. 19:19:17 ehird: They are the same, and __file__ would work even if the interpeter is called from another module. (Why you would do that I don't know) 19:19:37 MizardX: they are not the same: 19:19:48 import foobar; foobar.main(sys.argv) 19:19:59 e.g. setuptools essentially does that, but with 5000 levels of indirection 19:20:09 __file__ is the code file that it's contained in, sys.argv[0] is the program that was run 19:21:58 oklopol: it would probably be relatively easy based on what I've done for gcc-bf already 19:22:44 ehird: I wouldn't know if the file in sys.argv[0] supports the arguments passed. I do know that the file in __file__ does. 19:22:55 True. Still. 19:23:42 I could move the syntax-message to the "if __name__ == '__main__'" block instead... 19:24:07 ais523: well it's just the pointer stuff that's hard in both those. 19:24:17 oklopol: I have code to handle pointers already, I think 19:24:21 but it's very inefficient 19:24:31 is subleq TC, by the way? 19:24:32 that's part one 19:24:36 or does it have limited memory? 19:24:36 ais523: yes 19:24:38 uh 19:24:39 dunno 19:24:39 then just add bignums. 19:24:43 http://esolangs.org/wiki/subleq 19:24:48 hmm, 19:24:56 my implementation has bignums, i assumed it always does 19:24:59 but it's tc without them 19:25:02 err 19:25:05 asmtc 19:25:12 actually 19:25:28 yeah, can't be tc withouth bignums ofc 19:25:30 yes, tc with bignums 19:25:41 I was wondering if it used relative pointers or something 19:25:47 no 19:25:49 doesn't 19:25:53 ok, probably not all that easy to compile into a non-bignum version of TC 19:25:59 but my BF -> Underload compiler uses bignums 19:26:07 (although it doesn't handle input) 19:26:20 what does bf->ul help? 19:26:37 nothing obviously 19:26:40 it's just a nice link to have 19:26:47 if you're compiling subleq into underload, for instance 19:26:54 you could compile subleq -> bignum bf -> underload 19:28:53 that i did bf->subleq and not the other way around was due to a random choice. 19:29:09 i just took the first two language names that popped to mind 19:29:12 ah, ok 19:29:17 I was going to ask why subleq in particular 19:29:20 turned out to happen to be a trivial compilation. 19:29:23 hmm... someone should update http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters 19:30:25 god i love making interpreters and compiling languages to another 19:30:54 yes, so do I 19:31:05 although ideally the compiler should itself be in an esolang 19:31:14 how hard would it be to translate your compiler to something high-level like INTERCAL? 19:31:31 i don't know, i don't know intercal. 19:31:35 but that would be a great way to learn 19:33:59 I've got that befunge-underload at least, which is not mentioned in that table. Although it was a trivial thing too. 19:34:24 okay, time to go get drunk with a few friends. 19:34:26 fizzie: hmm... I'll have to get you to adapt it to befunge-underlambda when I finish speccing underlabmda 19:34:26 wish me luck :\ 19:34:32 good luck 19:36:56 * oklopol leaves 19:36:59 -> 19:37:02 I wonder if underload.b98 counts; it's Funge-98 (thanks to use of STRN), strictly speaking not Befunge. 19:37:17 well, it's a different lang 19:37:23 but Funge-98 is definitely an esolang 19:52:19 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 20:00:12 -!- jix has joined. 20:11:08 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:27:48 hm 20:33:06 +ul ((h)(m)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~a*~:^):^ 20:33:07 hm 20:33:11 oops 20:34:00 +ul ((h)(m)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^ 20:34:01 hmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmh ...too much output! 20:34:18 ? 20:34:41 ! 20:35:05 +ul ((0)(1)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^ 20:35:07 0110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110100101100110100101101001100101100110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110 ...too much output! 20:35:19 oklopol: I'm wondering why you're running that particular program 20:35:21 *oerjan: 20:35:35 just for fun 20:35:59 also, it's a well-known sequence 20:37:14 oh, thue-morse 20:39:13 is that Keymaker's Thue-Morse in Underload? 20:39:59 if so, purely by coincidence :D 20:40:36 Keymaker definitely wrote one, I'm wondering if it's the same one or if you reimplemented it yourself 20:40:53 reimplemented, afaik 20:41:11 +ul (:^)(~()~((1)Sa~a*~(~:^:^)*~^)~((0)Sa~a*~(:^~:^)*~^~)~S!!~:^):^ 20:41:14 :^ ...out of time! 20:41:15 that one's Keymaker's 20:41:25 hmm... must have mispasted 20:41:51 +ul (:^)(~()~((1)Sa~a*~(~:^:^)*~^)~((0)Sa~a*~(:^~:^)*~^~)~^(/)S!!~:^):^ 20:41:53 0/01/0110/01101001/0110100110010110/01101001100101101001011001101001/0110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110/0110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110100101100110100101101001100101100110100110010110100 ...too much output! 20:42:01 i was slightly inspired by a fibonacci i saw, i think (putting the initial pair in a list) 20:42:06 I missed that it had a literal newline in a string, I changed it to / 20:43:01 BEEP BOOP 20:43:11 that looks like a sequence of increasing parts of the thue-morse sequence 20:44:59 yes 20:45:47 oh it's just on the talk page 20:46:38 um, a link from there 20:47:16 oerjan: http://koti.mbnet.fi/~yiap/programs/underload/ 20:47:42 +ul (*/*/*/)S(*)::(a~a*~a*~a*^a~a:*~*^*:(/)*Sa~a*~a*^a~a~*~a*~a*^:^):^ 20:47:43 */*/*/**/**/***/****/*****/*******/*********/************/****************/*********************/****************************/*************************************/ ...too much output! 20:47:45 that one fails to load 20:47:53 really? it works for me 20:48:02 it's a directory listing of Keymaker's underload programs 20:48:25 oh wait 20:52:08 * oerjan adds that link to the article proper 20:53:21 what in the world are the numbers in that sequence? 20:54:52 oerjan: it's the Padovan sequence 20:54:56 not sure what that is 20:55:02 I'm going to give a random link to Wikipedia, then click on it 20:55:05 [[w:Padovan sequence]] 20:55:08 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=Padovan_sequence 20:55:26 FAIL 20:55:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padovan_sequence 20:55:45 oerjan: not fail 20:55:46 blame Konversation not me 20:55:51 that's a reasonable thing to do 20:55:56 my link does go to the right place, after all... 20:56:04 well... 20:56:28 it's like a dipped version of Fibonnacci, it seems 20:56:59 there's also the Perrin sequence, which is defined the same way except it starts 3 0 2 20:57:50 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:25:51 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 21:26:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit. 21:27:41 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 21:40:46 -!- olsner has joined. 22:16:34 ais523, how goes ick, gcc-bf, feather and so on? 22:17:26 * oerjan looks at ais523 juggling a huge number of balls 22:17:39 AnMaster: actually I've been working on Underlambda 22:18:15 ah 22:18:21 oerjan, and yeah 22:23:28 * oerjan looks at ais523 juggling a huge number of balls 22:23:30 get your own channel. 22:23:51 AnMaster: I also wrote an Underload interp in Thue, I think I told you that already though 22:24:35 ehird: huh? 22:24:49 oerjan: I was making a HILARIOUS INNUENDO 22:25:10 Like juggling esoteric balls in variable gravity. 22:25:20 ah a pun 22:25:26 YOU ALL KNOW I HATE PUNS 22:25:27 ehird: it was a very bad innuendo 22:25:40 oerjan: I'm not certain I believe you on that... 22:25:40 ais523: Shut up, ball-juggler. 22:25:51 and Thutubot agrees with me, just has no way of indicating that 22:26:02 fungot: Do you agree? Y/N? 22:26:02 fizzie: i don't rename variables, i would like to 22:26:57 optbot? 22:26:57 ehird: The only time when you would explicitly wait for a box to be filled is when you branched based on its value. 22:27:00 optbot! 22:27:00 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but; moreso. 22:27:27 ^bool 22:27:27 Yes. 22:27:32 ^fool 22:27:48 No. 22:28:12 oh well then 22:28:24 ^cool 22:28:24 ^fool 22:28:30 wtf? 22:28:37 fizzie, you made it say that 22:28:42 Well, sure. 22:28:52 I thought it fitting. 22:28:55 fungot's no fool. 22:28:55 fizzie: what was the 4d about? srfi 15? 22:29:25 scheme is such a srfing language 22:29:39 Surfing? 22:29:49 It's totally rad dude 22:29:51 fungot, 4d2 22:29:52 Smurfing, maybe. 22:29:52 AnMaster: i'm just going to say, you probably want is pair-for-each from srfi 1?) would justify the fnord! 22:29:59 hm 22:30:14 fizzie: just because i'm such a masochist, i made a pun 22:31:25 ^style 22:31:25 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 22:31:35 ^style pa 22:31:36 Selected style: pa 22:31:42 fungot: what's that about? 22:31:43 oerjan: no, it's him. you hit him. instead, press button and wait for the authorities to arrive. maybe you could tell me why your game is a kart racer? yeah. that shouldn't be a problem. 22:32:28 fungot: argle bargle, glop glyf 22:32:28 oerjan: tomselleck_666: what are you two fairies up to? ( yes is ticked). we'll only need it for the day." so i ask him what their pings are. they're all over the place. 22:32:54 hm it's some other irc channel? 22:33:35 ^style fisher 22:33:36 Selected style: fisher 22:33:43 fungot: how is that fishy 22:33:44 oerjan: ye- yeah it's interesting ah so we're supposed to talk 22:34:12 fungot: is it that conversation thing? 22:34:12 oerjan: ( ( well see i dialed 22:34:21 "pa" is Penny Arcade comics. 22:34:28 night 22:34:31 And Fisher is the telephoen conversation corpus. 22:34:39 ^style ic 22:34:39 Selected style: ic 22:34:46 fungot: no i don't 22:34:51 oops 22:35:00 fungot? 22:35:01 ais523: it is and doesn't give a computed `next' stack is the c-intercal version 0.26 ( both the intercal program, but may not appear to have the right software, it's very important to make more memory available to intercal exist, all commands of any of the resulting threads backtrack; this is most likely, this means that you have the correct emulation mode for the full text of the mechanisms available for free for other syntax 22:35:10 'night 22:35:13 night Mony 22:35:23 thx :) 22:35:26 -!- Mony has quit ("Join the Damnation now !"). 22:35:42 um it's esoteric but not the same as irc? 22:35:44 hm 22:35:45 ic? 22:35:50 fungot, hi 22:35:50 AnMaster: 7.3 next, forget and resume to that of the result), and the least significant bit is the same name. it's written like an ordinary `abstain' and `reinstate' that point on a whim did an ubuntu package search for ' intercal' and `.2/.1' together cause `.1' to `gcc' is 22:35:56 oerjan: it's from the INTERCAL revamped manual, IIRC 22:35:59 ah 22:36:00 lol 22:36:05 oh 22:36:11 ^style 22:36:11 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 22:36:20 fizzie, idea show the current one too? 22:36:25 idea:* 22:36:50 night! 22:38:37 ^style ss 22:38:38 Selected style: ss 22:38:42 fungot: and so 22:38:42 oerjan: ang. neere byrnan wood shall we well meet them, and they, stand in assured loss. take up, boy; open't. so, now go with, do miscarrie, thou had'st bin resolute pompey 22:38:53 ah 22:39:36 Hmmmmmm ... does something have to be a plant to be a vegetable? 22:39:45 GregorR: I think so 22:39:56 hm what about fungi 22:39:59 Are mushrooms vegetables? Is fried algae a vegetable? 22:40:42 Mushrooms aren't even plants. 22:40:45 algae are plants, normally, though, aren't they 22:40:51 apart from cyanobacteria which aren't algae really 22:41:15 i think divisions get fishy at that level 22:41:28 (although fishes are not plants) 22:41:57 wp claims green algae are plants 22:42:18 "Most algae are no longer classified within the Kingdom Plantae" 22:43:20 And yet, I would call red algae (a delicacy amongst no one) a vegetable 22:45:08 * oerjan isn't sure whether that means it is or isn't a delicacy 22:45:26 to nobody, it's a delicacy 22:45:34 that means that it's really really rare for it to be a delicacy 22:45:39 therefore, in the abstract, it's a delicacy 22:45:40 ic 22:45:46 just it isn't a delicacy to anyone in particular 22:45:50 i'm sure some fish disagree 22:46:14 WP says people eat Cyanobacteria 22:46:22 And that's most CERTAINLY not a plant. 22:46:29 But is it a vegetable? 22:46:34 I think it's more interesting if you have to guess. (In any case the current style isn't actually stored anywhere, just the corresponding file names. Though it would just mean extracting stuff after the last '.'. 22:48:47 fungot: poop 22:48:48 ehird: bianca. and may through all the worlds new fashion planted, that hath so much ouerborne her, that she which marries you, must in your allowance o'reway a whole theater of others. god keep me from their worse then killing lust, and wak'd halfe dead with nothing. worthy martius, had we no other quarrel else to rome, and when you are gentle, you shall not 22:49:35 o la paloma bianca 22:51:26 darn it's blanca 22:55:35 " Mushrooms belong to the biological kingdom Fungi, not the plant kingdom, and yet they are also generally considered to be vegetables, at least in the retail industry" 22:58:08 -!- LinuS has quit (No route to host). 23:04:42 ^reload 23:04:42 Reloaded. 23:04:48 Couldn't resist one improvement. 23:04:53 ^style irc 23:04:53 Selected style: ircR(IRCglogs ofefreenode/#esoteric,efreenode/#schemedandcircnet/#douglasadams) 23:04:59 Uh... 23:05:04 ^style ic 23:05:04 Selected style: icI(INTERCALamanual) 23:05:09 ^style 23:05:09 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 23:05:12 ^style wp 23:05:13 Selected style: wp1(1/256thfoflalliWikipediaT"Talk:"anamespaceapages) 23:05:25 They've all got descriptions, but the list wasn't cleared properly. 23:05:27 fizzie: it's almost right except the text in the parens is garbled 23:05:32 -!- fungot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:05:37 I like it 23:05:41 it's like typical fungot babble 23:05:43 on a smaller scale 23:05:55 It's just that the spaces were filled with some other older stuff. 23:06:16 -!- fungot has joined. 23:06:25 ^style ic 23:06:25 Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual) 23:06:36 Thre, now it's boring again. 23:07:31 Just used ^code + 'i' to load the updated list (with descriptions) and forgot that it won't clear those parts that had spaces in them. 23:07:33 ^style alice 23:07:34 Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll) 23:07:37 Oh. 23:07:44 fizzie: add ELIZA dialog 23:07:52 At some point, sure. 23:08:11 ^style darwin 23:08:11 Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy) 23:08:34 I think darwin still has that problem with smileys, though. 23:09:09 fungot: Don't you think Darwin's writings would've been a lot better if he had just used a bit less of the ":)" sign? 23:09:09 fizzie: leersia oryzoides. pollen-grains :). odorata. palustris. roxburghiana. ruppii. sylvatica. tricolor. 23:09:40 I'm surprised anyone took him seriously like that. 23:10:22 optbot, make a better topic of conversation 23:10:23 Slereah_: not being nested 23:10:35 What is your opinion on not being nested, people? 23:10:52 It's a sad state of affairs, not being nested. 23:10:57 Everyone should have a nest. 23:11:28 Do you know of the INTERNEST 23:11:40 but twigs are so rough to sleep on! 23:11:41 Is that like the INFORMATION SUPERHIGHNEST? 23:12:44 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:12:56 World Wide Webeverse 23:13:19 fizzie: did he actually say :) 23:13:20 XD 23:13:41 No, it's just a bug my scripts used to have. 23:13:54 I should finish the functions for Mulambda 23:14:17 Currently it maps the words "a" and "the" into ":)" and "/". 23:14:25 fizzie: haha, what 23:15:24 The script I used filtered unused tokens away, and darwin didn't use all my punctuation (":)" and ":(", most likely) so the last two token numbers that used to be punctuation in the IRC logs were given to the two most common words, "a" and "the". 23:15:40 But fungot's Funge-coded tokens-to-text part has the punctuation stuff hardcoded, so... 23:15:40 fizzie: on september 14, 1862 page 721.) that/ main part :) his letter dated march 10th, 1871. 23:16:18 The current version of the data-eating script doesn't have that bug any longer, I just haven't rebuilt those .darwin data files. 23:17:09 OM NOM NOM 23:18:07 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:21:22 -!- puzzlet has joined. 23:23:05 Sometimes, I think it would be easier to write mulambda in Lazy Bird D: 23:23:15 At least there's a functional thing! 23:23:18 Unlike that fraud Scheme 23:24:39 I'm not quite sure what sort of "functional language" features Scheme would be missing; and as far as syntax is concerned, it's got quite nice macros. 23:25:11 Well, it's not missing. 23:25:19 Just annoying for what I'm looking for 23:29:40 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:32:26 -!- puzzlet has joined. 23:49:21 -!- Doitle2 has quit.