00:41:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hmm... w3m just displays it inline, just like AnMaster asked.
00:45:25 <ehird> http://www.mscs.dal.ca/~selinger/md5collision/
01:02:39 <Slereah> Rargh
01:02:52 <Slereah> How is called the . args thingamagig in Scheme?
01:02:55 <Slereah> So I can find sum tutorial
01:06:20 <oerjan> http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_sec_4.1.4
01:07:11 <Slereah> Thankyouz
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01:23:42 <Slereah> Hm.
01:23:42 <Slereah> Maybe I should try pattern-matching for the pi calculus.
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01:33:01 <Slereah_> D:
01:33:03 <Slereah_> rec: expects either an identifier followed by an expresion, or a (possibly dotted) sequence of identifiers followed by a body in: rec
01:33:07 <Slereah_> What has science done!
01:50:42 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
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02:55:21 <Slereah_> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
02:57:32 -!- oerjan has quit ("BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBye").
03:10:44 <warrie_> Agora Nomic has a People's Bank of Agora, where people can deposit their assets in exchange for coins. The exchange rate goes down by 2 coins every week the Bank has some of that asset on hand.
03:11:35 <warrie_> I determined that in theory, the exchange rate should plummet to 0 weekly. It hasn't actually done this, but in theory, theory and practice are the same. Therefore, I feel leet.
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03:23:12 <bsmntbombdood> hrm
03:23:18 <bsmntbombdood> did anyone answer my question the other day?
03:25:12 <bsmntbombdood> looks like no
03:26:14 <Slereah_> wat
03:26:45 <bsmntbombdood> efficiently executing boolean expressions
03:37:22 <Doitle2> Need correct key??? Anyone else in here ever been in #chrome?
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03:46:35 <Slereah_> I'm in meat.
04:22:53 <GregorR> Bow chicka bow wow.
04:23:25 <Slereah_> ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH
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05:52:51 <Doitle2> woo my program triggers a virus scanner...
05:53:33 <Slereah> HACKER D:
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05:57:15 <Doitle2> I've gotta figure out some way to prevent nod32 from screwing with this program...
05:57:35 <Doitle2> I wrote a simple mail server in Java and it keeps interfering and trying to scan fictional messages
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06:41:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | actually no, i really do have a turkish prison.
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11:55:26 <ehird> it kind of sucks that there isn't a complete pgp in js impl
12:01:27 <ehird> :p
12:13:46 <ehird> haha
12:13:48 <ehird> i like the topic
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12:41:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | EgoBot is certainly the limiting factor in speed here..
12:45:08 <fizzie> That one is not bad either.
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14:09:48 <ehird> hi ais523
14:35:01 -!- Mony has joined.
14:36:24 <Mony> plop
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15:17:05 <ehird> hi ais523
15:19:03 <ais523> hi ehird
16:20:28 <oklopol> yes.
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16:25:50 <AnMaster> hi ais523
16:26:50 <ais523> wb me
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16:31:37 <oklopol> bye hiato
16:40:53 -!- Hiato has joined.
16:43:38 <ais523> wb ehird
16:46:05 <oklopol> wb Hiato
16:46:24 <oklopol> hi ais523
16:46:31 <ais523> hi oklopol
16:47:01 * oklopol destroys the pattern of greetings.
16:49:28 <GregorR> And a good destroys the pattern of greetings to you too, oklopol!
16:49:49 <ais523> hahaha
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17:35:29 <oklopol> fizzie: i got over the hurdle.
17:35:41 <oklopol> tripped shortly after, 54.8 meters
17:36:09 <fizzie> Did you run (like run-run, for real) the whole time?
17:36:09 <oklopol> enough for today, i've set a deadline on success for sunday, so i'm not really in a hurry yet.
17:36:32 <oklopol> i occasionally trip, and have to rise up again
17:36:54 <oklopol> but i don't do anything fishy.
17:37:01 <oklopol> trip = fall on my knee
17:37:32 <fizzie> Heh, okay.
17:37:59 <oklopol> it's not exactly that graceful, my jumps are way too high to be speed-optimal, and i fall on my knees like every 6 jumps.
17:38:23 <oklopol> but i am technically running, i can show you a vid once i master this.
17:38:49 <fizzie> Great.
17:39:38 <oklopol> yes. reading time ->
17:43:09 <Slereah> The problem with µ recursive functions on Scheme is that you have to compose every goddamn functions
17:43:19 <Slereah> And that's annoying, because Scheme can't do that naturally3
17:43:56 <ais523> Slereah: use a concatenative lang, composing is the most natural thing in the world for those
17:44:22 <Slereah> Well, there's only one function left to do, and I don't want all the rest to go to waste.
17:44:49 <fizzie> I don't think function composition is so very unnatural in Scheme either.
17:45:24 <oklopol> can't you just write it as a function?
17:45:28 <Slereah> Well, you can't do something like (s s), where s is the successor function
17:45:42 <ehird_gobo> yes you can?
17:45:42 <Slereah> For instance.
17:45:59 <Slereah> Well, you can try, but it will tell you that you can't feed procedures to +.
17:46:31 <fizzie> That's supposed to do (lambda (x) (s (s x))) or something?
17:46:53 <Slereah> Well, fortunately, µ recursive functions don't really need to do that for all functions.
17:47:29 <Slereah> Just for two schema
17:47:38 <Slereah> Substitution and recursion
17:47:44 <Slereah> The rest just fit in.
17:48:23 <Slereah> But man was it annoying.
17:48:32 <Slereah> I'm glad #scheme is here.
17:48:33 <fizzie> You can always write a macro to turn (c f g) into something that returns the composition of f and g.
17:48:42 <Slereah> Well, that's what I did.
17:48:44 <Slereah> Sort of.
17:48:56 <Slereah> Substitution is pretty much function composition
17:49:11 <fizzie> And I guess it doesn't really need to be a macro if it just takes functions and returns their composition.
17:49:59 <Slereah> Yeah
17:50:18 <Slereah> All that remain to do is to make the recursion schema return a function instead of a value.
17:50:36 <Slereah> Something annoying is that with recursive functions, everything is a function.
17:50:45 <Slereah> So in the end, I don't actually get a number.
17:51:05 <Slereah> I have to apply something to it, because the constant function is C(x,y,z,...) = 0
17:51:15 <Slereah> Otherwise, it doesn't work with the schema.
17:51:30 <fizzie> SICP exercise 1.42 is the procedure 'compose' for that, actually.
17:52:06 <Slereah> Heh.
17:52:37 <Slereah> After I do that, I'll do the actual language, where you can input either a number or a string that will be godelized
17:52:49 <Slereah> Fuck that will be annoying
17:52:50 <Slereah> :D
17:53:40 <fizzie> I should fix jitfunge's mycology regression.
17:53:56 <ais523> how far through mycology does jitfunge get?
17:54:21 <fizzie> Now it prints "GOOD: ..." lines, followed by "GGOD: 0! = 1", then "BAD: 7! != 0" and a ^G character.
17:54:42 <fizzie> It used to do mycology cleanly up to "BAD: k reflects" (because I haven't done k at all yet).
17:55:14 <fizzie> I'm not sure what's up with GGOD there.
17:56:29 <fizzie> The program "001p 01g!. 01g7+!. 01g7+!!. a, @" prints out "1 0 1" like it should, so the bug is less obvious.
17:57:12 <fizzie> (I first tried the program "0!. 7!. 7!!. a, @" but noticed that it gets compiled into "printnum(1); printnum(0); printnum(1);" basically.
17:57:12 <ais523> looks like memory corruption
17:59:26 <fizzie> mycology is annoyingly complicated to test; I'd like to get a smaller test case.
17:59:48 <fizzie> It runs underload.b98 and the 99bob Underload program just fine, and life.bf too, so it's not completely broken.
18:01:36 <Deewiant> 'smaller'? Up to that point it's probably 10 lines or so :-P
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18:03:28 <fizzie> It's still already 384 lines of output with jitfunge's "-d" flag; I'd like something that generates only one or two compiled sort-of-functions so I can just disassemble them and see what goes wrong.
18:03:58 <Deewiant> you can try just removing stuff from the beginning onward
18:04:31 <fizzie> Maybe I should.
18:04:51 <fizzie> With any luck it won't then crash any longer.
18:06:48 -!- jix has quit ("...").
18:06:54 <fizzie> At least the 14 first lines of mycology cause the same thing.
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18:34:03 <fizzie> Well, at least I did get a small test program: "1:$#@ #$_1.a,@" prints out 1, even though it really shouldn't.
18:41:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | how would i know?.
18:45:28 <Doitle2> What language is this in?
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18:47:47 <Deewiant> Doitle2: that's Befunge code
18:47:47 -!- oklopol has joined.
18:48:01 <Deewiant> jitfunge is, I think, C, if that's what you meant
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18:52:39 <ehird_gobo> It's installing lilo!!! :))
18:52:51 <Deewiant> ?
18:53:01 <ehird_gobo> Deewiant: Installing gobolinux on a mac/
18:53:23 <Deewiant> Hmm, is it an active project?
18:53:30 <ehird_gobo> yep
18:53:32 <Deewiant> I was under the impression it was old
18:53:36 <ehird_gobo> nope
18:53:37 <Deewiant> Old as in not updated
18:53:38 <ehird_gobo> 2003 - present
18:53:40 <Deewiant> Alright, cool
18:53:47 <ehird_gobo> there's 26 people in the irc channel for what that's worth
18:55:21 <Deewiant> What's its status package-wise
18:56:04 <Deewiant> I presume it needs its own packages so that it can use that fancy directory hierarchy
18:56:30 <ehird_gobo> Yeah
18:56:37 <ehird_gobo> It's good
18:56:40 <ehird_gobo> has firefox 3, kde 4, etc
18:56:47 <Deewiant> Yay, it has 3 packages ;-)
18:56:52 <ehird_gobo> had a release a few months ago
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18:56:56 <ehird_gobo> http://recipes.gobolinux.org/r/
18:57:11 <ehird_gobo> 100 package updates in 17 days
18:57:13 <ehird_gobo> That's not bad.
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18:58:36 <Deewiant> It installs everything from source?
18:58:43 -!- Hiato has quit ("Underflow").
18:58:49 <ehird_gobo> Deewiant: it also has precompiled packages, but yes.
18:58:54 <ehird_gobo> it's a portage/portfile-style solution
18:58:59 <Deewiant> So it's like Gentoo in that respect
18:59:11 <ehird_gobo> http://gobolinux.org/index.php?page=packages
18:59:12 <ehird_gobo> binary packages
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18:59:24 <Deewiant> How about package-specific options like Gentoo, does it do anything like that?
18:59:32 <ehird_gobo> Not sure.
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19:00:21 <Deewiant> That seems to be the main advantage of installing from source, to me
19:00:44 <ehird_gobo> Eh.
19:00:50 <ehird_gobo> Also, it compiles everything & its dependencies into a chroot
19:00:56 <ehird_gobo> Before putting it into the system tree
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19:02:36 <ais523> ehird_gobo: you alive yet?
19:02:46 <ehird_gobo> ais523: I've been talking, have I not?
19:02:49 <ehird_gobo> I'm still on the livecdf.
19:02:51 <ais523> well, yes
19:02:52 <ehird_gobo> Trying to configure lilo
19:02:53 <ais523> and ok
19:02:56 <ais523> how broken is your computer atm?
19:02:58 <ehird_gobo> ais523: you know those kernel vesa strings
19:03:00 <ehird_gobo> like vga=791
19:03:05 <ais523> not really
19:03:08 <Deewiant> Those are mean
19:03:08 <ehird_gobo> what is the one for 1680x1280 :-P
19:03:23 <Deewiant> It's not that simple, I don't think
19:03:23 <ais523> ehird_gobo: I don't know off by heart
19:03:28 <oklokok> what's 7 plus minus 8?
19:03:33 <ais523> oklokok: -1
19:03:33 <ehird_gobo> i can get the 1600×1200 one
19:03:34 <Deewiant> It specifies more than just resolution
19:03:39 <ehird_gobo> but not 1600×1280
19:03:40 <ehird_gobo> Deewiant: yeah
19:03:41 <ehird_gobo> but
19:03:43 <ehird_gobo> 1600×1200 vs 1600×1280
19:03:46 <ehird_gobo> damnit :-P
19:04:15 <ais523> wow, hibernate actually works on this version of Ubuntu
19:04:49 <ehird_gobo> LINUX: INNOVATION
19:05:00 <Deewiant> ehird_gobo: TBH I'm not sure if it supports non-4:3 resolutions
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19:05:05 <ais523> ehird_gobo: it almost worked before, just it wasn't as fast and it got the screen res wrong
19:05:08 <ehird_gobo> Deewiant: waaaaaaaaat ;_;
19:05:11 <ehird_gobo> I'll just leave it blank
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19:05:25 <Deewiant> ehird_gobo: I could check what my laptop has for 1400x1050 but I'm feeling lazy :-P
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19:07:01 <ais523> ehird_gobo: it seems there's a longer format, try video=1600x1280-32@60
19:07:02 <Deewiant> I don't even know the way of finding out those numbers
19:07:10 <ais523> replacing 32 and 60 with your color depth and refresh rate
19:07:17 <Deewiant> I doubt that works
19:07:23 <ehird_gobo> nah i'll just omit it
19:07:23 <ais523> hmm... probably
19:07:26 <Deewiant> You have to set in the kernel which frame buffer to use
19:07:32 <Deewiant> One uses the vga= syntax, the other that one
19:07:37 <Deewiant> I don't think any supports both
19:07:38 <ais523> ah, and ok
19:07:40 <Deewiant> But I could be wrong
19:07:53 <fizzie> That's the truth: vesafb only does the vga=X mode thing.
19:08:00 <fizzie> Which makes sense, since it only uses the VESA functions.
19:08:10 <fizzie> The others are more flexible.
19:08:11 <ais523> and a different one does the longer mode string
19:08:38 <Hiato> Oh, by the way, AnMaster (if it was you I was asking about Unlambda), the answer to the multiple arguments problem I had is currying. Just thought I'd let you know (though I know you know that already :P )
19:08:43 <ehird_gobo> Backup copy of /dev/sda in /boot/boot.0800 The Master Boot Record of  /dev/sda  has been updated.
19:08:45 <ehird_gobo> reboot time
19:09:25 <ais523> I found a table of numbers, it seems all the resolutions that supports are 4:3 ones
19:10:10 <fizzie> Well, the card might well support modes that are not listed in some table.
19:11:48 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VESA_BIOS_Extensions has a longer table of "Linux video mode numbers", wtih 1440x900, but it doesn't have the 1680x1280 one either.
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19:12:40 <ais523> I just found a pdf on vesa.org
19:12:42 <ais523> I'll look there
19:13:23 <ais523> hmm... it seems to be down
19:13:34 <fizzie> Still, it often makes sense to use the chipset-specific frame buffer instead of vesafb; those let you change modes on runtime and everything. And of course X (if not using the fbdev driver) doesn't much care.
19:14:10 <ais523> fizzie: can you access vesa.org from where you are? there seems to be something wrong with it
19:14:34 <fizzie> Nope.
19:14:39 <ais523> ugh
19:14:42 <Deewiant> try the wayback machine
19:14:51 <ais523> does it index pdfs?
19:15:04 <Deewiant> don't think so
19:15:04 <fizzie> But I don't think they've had time to actually define any fancy modes yet; it's, what, 2008? Maybe some time during the next decade.
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19:18:25 <fizzie> Hah, that was a funny jitfunge bug; when adding the 'IF' operation it didn't clear the constant-folding-stack, so something like 1#$_ would add "push 1" to the op list, then "if", then see the $ (since it branch-predicts true always) and remove the "push 1" because it thought it was discarding a constant.
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19:20:15 <ehird_gobo> Not quite working yet.
19:20:59 <fizzie> Not quite working yet either: http://zem.fi/~fis/mycout.txt
19:21:07 <fizzie> "GOOD: , wo works"
19:21:17 <Deewiant> :-)
19:21:17 <ehird_gobo> wo-wo-works!
19:21:42 <Deewiant> I need to add a note to the readme: the interpreter is not meant to stutter
19:22:03 <ehird_gobo> GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD: , wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooorks!
19:24:10 <fizzie> It's rather impressive that I get "wo works" out of the code "skrow , :DOOG",,,,,,,,,,,,,
19:24:30 <Deewiant> I agree
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19:25:43 <fizzie> It's again something more complicated, since isolating that piece of code doesn't break it.
19:25:59 <Deewiant> One would hope not :-P
19:26:10 <fizzie> If I just run the 14 first lines of mycology, the output is correct.
19:27:40 * ehird_gobo restarts
19:28:43 <fizzie> Er... if I *don't* redirect the output to file, the beginning is also correct (the missing "0 1 2 3" in the beginning is there and no stutter) but the last line is "EAD: k reflects" instead of "BAD: ...".
19:29:01 <Deewiant> :-D
19:29:28 <ais523> fizzie: sounds very very like memory corruption
19:30:09 <fizzie> Under gdb it segfaults after "GOOD: : duplicates".
19:30:11 <Deewiant> I'm not surprised, considering what he's doing
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19:30:25 <fizzie> With a helpful backtrace:
19:30:25 <fizzie> (gdb) bt
19:30:26 <fizzie> #0  0xf7fb503b in ?? ()
19:30:26 <fizzie> #1  0x00000000 in ?? ()
19:30:28 <Deewiant> That project should never have been undertaken :-P
19:31:08 <Deewiant> fizzie: try running with and without debugging symbols, and with different degrees of optimization, etc. Should be fun ;-)
19:32:18 <fizzie> It's funny how -- despite how utterly buggy it seems to be -- it still runs underload.b98 and the 99bob program, as well as life.bf.
19:33:49 <Deewiant> And are you sure there's not a typo or something somewhere? ;-)
19:33:57 <Deewiant> e.g. in 99bob
19:34:01 <fizzie> Substituting the -O3 flag with -ggdb did nothing, but it's funny how I get different output from "build/jitfunge mycology.b98" than "build/jitfunge mycology.b98 | cat".
19:34:43 <ais523> fizzie: step up to the point where it segfaults, checking the backtrace every now and then
19:34:46 <ais523> when it goes mad, there's the bug
19:36:22 <fizzie> The 99bob output is (according to diff) identical to what I get from cfunge.
19:36:34 <fizzie> Well, when redirecting to a file, anyway. :p
19:36:43 <ais523> it's probably something mycology does that causes corruption
19:36:49 <ais523> and the corruption doesn't strike instantly but later on
19:37:50 <fizzie> Actually I think 0xf7fb503b is in one of my generated functions; O
19:40:11 <fizzie> Hmmmm.
19:40:22 <fizzie> The segfault is just stack underflow. :/
19:41:01 <fizzie> It's handled properly by the SIGSEGV handler, I think, it's just that gdb doesn't like it. I can "cont" past it just fine.
19:41:20 <fizzie> Aw, I was hoping for a big red arrow pointing at a piece of code and saying "here's your bug".
19:41:22 <ais523> gdb always catches signals
19:41:30 <ais523> even if the code handles them correctly
19:41:45 <ais523> possibly there's a don't-break-on-segfaults option, I don't know
19:41:59 <ais523> Deewiant: does Mycology test stack underflow, by the way?
19:42:23 <fizzie> It seems to pop from empty stack quite many times, assuming these signals are correct.
19:42:35 <ais523> that wouldn't surprise me
19:42:42 <Deewiant> Yes it does
19:42:42 <ais523> any Funge programmer knows that's a ready source of zeroes
19:42:51 <Deewiant> Right there at the top
19:42:53 <Deewiant> GOOD: empty stack pops zero
19:43:07 <fizzie> I don't pop from the empty stack at all in fungot.
19:43:08 <fungot> fizzie: to. why he is the generall challenger, i come to know your heaviness.' ' in night, and let driue at me; for ( as we terme it) his friends, his state vsurp'd, his realme a slaughter-house, his subjects to oppression and contempt, and any thing that you should beare me on your shoulders
19:43:12 <fizzie> ^style
19:43:13 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
19:43:18 <fizzie> ^style irc
19:43:18 <fungot> Selected style: irc
19:43:30 <Deewiant> Oh cool, you coded that
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19:43:47 <fizzie> Oh, it was your fault for suggesting it?
19:43:52 <fizzie> Forgot who mentioned it.
19:43:58 <Deewiant> Not my fault
19:44:02 <Deewiant> Can't remember whose
19:45:04 <fizzie> Well, it wasn't a big thing. It's just a fixed list, I didn't add any list manipulation commands.
19:45:14 <fizzie> (Probably should've made ^reload to reload it, though.)
19:46:57 <fizzie> Aw, my job was the 59999th job on the CIS cluster (since the last reboot, probably). I'm sure they have a prize for whoever gets the 60000th job.
19:47:38 <Deewiant> I'm sure they don't. :-P
19:47:57 <Deewiant> Hell, I put in way more than 10000 jobs on the TCS cluster over the summer.
19:48:13 -!- M0ny has quit ("Join the Damnation now !").
19:48:19 <Deewiant> Although maybe I didn't get anything just because I was an intern...
19:48:33 <fizzie> Maybe you just didn't hit the right round numbers.
19:48:43 <Deewiant> I think I hit 200000
19:50:23 <fizzie> Oh. Well, they *should* have something. Maybe a script that automagically prints a fancy diploma to the closest printer.
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19:57:34 <fizzie> Somehow I'm not too surprised jitfunge doesn't play nice with valgrind.
19:57:43 <ais523> wb ehird?
19:57:47 <ais523> fizzie: neither am I
19:58:06 <fizzie> I get "vex x86->IR: unhandled instruction bytes: 0xFF 0xFF 0xFF 0x0" out of it.
19:58:23 <ais523> does that sequence of instruction bytes make sense on x86?
19:59:15 <Deewiant> doesn't sound like it
19:59:22 <Deewiant> might, but I doubt it.
19:59:44 <ais523> but it would raise SIGILL if it didn't
19:59:58 <ehird> SIGILL
19:59:59 <ehird> XD
20:00:05 <ais523> what's wrong with SIGILL?
20:00:11 <ehird> it makes me think of SIGKILL
20:00:14 <ais523> other than the fact it means you just came across corrupted machine code?
20:00:21 <ehird> and sig ill as in unhealthy
20:00:50 <fizzie> 0xff00 would be inc dword [eax] but 0xff 0xff is not really anything.
20:00:51 <Deewiant> Well, it is unhealthy, it's food that's not meant for digestion... or something
20:01:59 <fizzie> I've got sigill once already (with some jumps in the middle of instructions) but I suspect some other valgrind-related complicity is causing this one.
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20:03:55 <fizzie> Under valgrind, it tries to execute some of the data I have there after the RET in the code. Not quite sure why.
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20:22:19 <ais523> ^style agora
20:22:19 <fungot> Selected style: agora
20:22:25 <ais523> fungot: give me some more agora-nonsense
20:22:26 <fungot> ais523: ( c) a player
20:22:32 <ais523> fungot: more?
20:22:32 <fungot> ais523: the cotc's report includes a list of succession.)
20:22:40 <ais523> ok, fungot, that one made more sense
20:22:40 <fungot> ais523: this rule. however, in the next week,
20:22:53 <ais523> fungot: the suspense is killing me!
20:22:53 <fungot> ais523: the player so appointed is herein referred to unambiguously in that currency. this rule.
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20:44:59 <gobo> Ping
20:45:06 <ais523> pong
20:45:12 <ais523> and hi person who is almost certainly ehird
20:45:18 <ais523> how are things?
20:45:24 <gobo> Almost a-ok.
20:45:30 <gobo> Interwebs should work on reboot, just need to:
20:45:35 <gobo> 1. fix ansi art bootup weirdness
20:45:39 <gobo> 2. update EVERYTHING...
20:45:45 <gobo> 3. get a resolution that doesn't hate kittens
20:45:51 <ais523> ansi art ~= ascii art?
20:45:54 <gobo> 4. make it look nice, etc, salt to taste
20:45:57 <gobo> ais523: well, vesa art
20:45:58 <gobo> :P
20:46:01 <gobo> but yeah
20:46:02 <ais523> ah, ok
20:46:09 <gobo> control character art for the bootup sequence is all garbled
20:46:55 <ais523> ah, ok
20:47:11 <ais523> I know that when I was running knoppix in a VM on here, the bootup sequence was garbled but it worked fine after tthat
20:47:13 <ais523> *that
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20:48:51 <gobo> Reboot tym
20:51:22 -!- gobo has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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20:54:23 <ehird_gobo>  Woop
20:54:23 <ehird_gobo> Woop
20:54:41 <fizzie> Juffo-wup.
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20:56:11 <ehird_gobo> 'Tis great this. Now just to get it working working
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21:29:51 <ehird> ais523|direct: what happened?
21:29:55 <ehird> to the bouncer
21:29:58 <ais523|direct> I don't know
21:30:02 <ais523|direct> but ais523 seems to have gone missing
21:30:03 <ehird> ugh... is rutian ok?
21:30:06 <ais523|direct> and the bouncer's spouting errors
21:30:10 <ais523|direct> at me
21:30:13 <ehird> x_X
21:30:15 <ehird> what errors
21:30:25 <ais523|direct> [21:29] <-psyBNC> Wed Nov 12 21:29:32 :User ais523: cant connect to irc.freenode.net port 6667.
21:30:27 <ais523|direct> [21:29] <-psyBNC> Wed Nov 12 21:29:36 :User ais523 () trying irc.freenode.net port 6667 ().
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21:30:34 <ehird> ah
21:30:37 <ehird> see
21:30:38 <ehird> should work now
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21:30:57 <ais523|direct> ehird: is your computer fixed now?
21:31:05 <ais523|direct> wb ais523
21:31:12 -!- ais523|direct has quit (Client Quit).
21:31:48 <ais523> and wb me.
21:31:50 <ehird> ais523: not quite.
21:32:07 <ehird> so ais523
21:32:12 <ehird> how do you type pipe on a standard uk keyboard
21:32:17 <ais523> shift-backslash
21:32:23 <ehird> ~
21:32:23 <ais523> as I said earlier; did you not receive that?
21:32:29 <ehird> ^ or not
21:32:33 <ais523> what does shift-2 give you?
21:32:36 <ehird> "
21:32:45 <ais523> strange...
21:32:51 <ehird> actually, us layout is probably closer to this apple keyboard
21:32:51 <ehird> :p
21:33:02 <ehird> cuz its a US keyboard... :~
21:33:03 <ehird> XD
21:33:03 <ehird> :~
21:33:07 <ais523> why do you ask, do you have the wrong keyboard layout?
21:33:14 <ehird> think so.
21:33:35 <ais523> there should be a preference somewhere to change it
21:33:42 <ehird> bye
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21:36:31 <ais523> bye ChanServ
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21:49:33 <ehird_> ais523: Fix this.
21:49:39 <ais523> fix what?
21:49:43 <ehird_> X. :P
21:49:48 <ehird_> The resolutions are borked.
21:49:54 <ehird_> I put in a Modes line but its still at 1024x768
21:49:56 <ais523> I don't know much about X
21:50:15 <ais523> that's one good thing about Ubuntu, they've got really good at auto-detecting the stuff X needs atm
21:50:49 <ehird_> I can assure you that every distro is pretty terrible with macs :-P
21:50:51 <ais523> try asking in a channel which does know
21:50:54 <ehird_> I am.
21:50:55 <ais523> I wonder if there's a #x?
21:50:58 <ehird_> They're talking about other things.
21:51:01 <ehird_> (#gobolinux)
21:51:05 <ehird_> X, related. Ironically
21:53:53 <fizzie> Often you can get by with the preferencesies thing of your desktop environment, if you have one. I think at least Gnome and KDE have some sort of display preferences thing.
21:54:43 <ehird_> yeah, 'cept its capped at this res
21:54:45 <ehird_> 1024x768
21:54:49 <ehird_> I should be getting 1600x1280
21:54:52 <ehird_> Maybe I need drivers.
21:54:54 <ehird_> But which?
21:55:04 <fizzie> Well, what sort of chipset you have there in that thing?
21:55:18 <ais523> when I had that problem I had to download the package for my chipset
21:55:29 <ais523> probably I have a different chipset to you, though, so you'll need a different package
21:55:31 <ehird_> fizzie: I wish I knew.
21:55:42 <fizzie> Well, the Internets probably know.
21:55:44 <ehird_> I think it's nvidia.
21:55:46 <fizzie> "lspci" usually knows too.
21:55:47 <ehird_> Yeah.
21:55:48 <ehird_> Must be.
21:55:56 <ehird_> 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc M56P [Radeon Mobility X1600]
21:55:58 <ehird_> Okay, or ATI.
21:56:30 <ais523> the ATI drivers for Linux are binary blobs, AFAIR
21:56:38 <fizzie> For ATI that's so new, there's the open-source rather new radeonhd, or alternatively the binary-only fglrx.
21:56:40 <ais523> which means probably they don't work on 64-bit, unless they special-cased that
21:56:54 <ehird_> gobolinux is 32-bit
21:56:55 <ehird_> so no worries.
21:57:10 <ehird_> heck, OS X Tiger is 32-bit.
21:57:13 <ais523> see which of the packages fizzie mentioned is in gobolinux's package manger, and install it
21:57:23 <ehird_> XF86-Video-ATI 6.9.0-r1
21:57:25 <ehird_> That looks reasonable.
21:57:34 <ehird_> Hm.
21:57:38 <ehird_> Radeonhd is there.
21:57:47 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:57:51 * ehird_ installs it
21:57:51 <fizzie> Well, if you want to be adventureous.
21:57:55 <ehird_> BLEEDING EDGE IS AWESOME
21:57:59 * ehird_ has disconnected
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21:58:44 <fizzie> "RADEONHD is still very much work in progress. At the time of this writing, radeonhd has the following major limitations: NO support for 2D & 3D acceleration, no support for Xvideo. Suspend & Resume is pretty much untested. Often it just works, but your milage may vary." says my man page.
21:58:55 <ehird_> Well... That's shit.
21:58:56 <fizzie> Although I seem to remember they had some sort of 2D acceleration going on by now.
21:59:19 <fizzie> http://wiki.x.org/wiki/radeonhd is probably the best source of info re that driver.
21:59:41 <fizzie> I'm not sure if the old radeon driver supports the newer R500-or-newer ATI chipsets at all.
22:00:02 <ehird_> Is this really "new"? December 06 is when I got it/.
22:00:34 <fizzie> "RV530/RV560 Radeon X1600/X1650/X1700" is mentioned in the radeon driver, so maybe that one will also work.
22:01:04 <ehird_> Compile: XF86-Video-RadeonHD is part of the Xorg-Driver meta recipe, but no version of Xorg-Driver could be found. Do you want to install XF86-Video-RadeonHD separately? [Y/n]
22:01:12 <ehird_> Dude. Compile. These are hard questions. TELL ME WHAT TO DO ;_;
22:01:22 <ais523> I suggest yes
22:01:28 <ais523> Compile tries to guess dependencies
22:01:32 <ais523> and asks the user for confirmation
22:01:34 <ais523> it seems
22:01:40 <fizzie> I don't know what a "meta recipe" is; your Linux is so strange.
22:01:41 <ehird_> nah it doesnt guess
22:01:45 <ehird_> that's just some weird metarecipe stuff
22:01:48 <ais523> oh, ok
22:01:55 <ehird_> fizzie: Considering it has an entirely new filesystem structure and no "package manager" to speak of...
22:01:58 <ais523> well, it says gobolinux allows installation even without dependencies being present
22:02:02 <ehird_> (The filesystem IS the package manager)
22:02:04 <ehird_> http://gobolinux.org/
22:02:22 <ehird_> Ok, restart X time, maybe.
22:02:34 <ehird_> Wait.
22:02:37 <ehird_> Don't I have to configure xorg.conf
22:02:48 <fizzie> Probably depends what you have there.
22:02:49 <ehird_> yep
22:03:03 <ehird_> GOGOGO
22:03:04 -!- ehird_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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22:04:25 <ehird_> Oh hey now THIS is nice.
22:04:37 <ais523> is it working?
22:04:43 <ehird_> You bet.
22:04:48 <ehird_> And the anti-aliasing is, um, nice.
22:05:00 <ais523> screenshot, so we can all see what ehird's new second OS is like?
22:05:12 <ais523> btw, probably you want kde3 rather than 4 atm, 4 is a bit unfinished IMO
22:05:14 <ehird_> Sure thang, as soon as I figure out how to take a screenshot.
22:05:29 <ehird_> Also, I can't install KDE packages without kde4, obviously
22:05:34 <ehird_> Due to it being the newest repo version
22:05:46 <fizzie> Is it that radeonhd now?
22:05:47 <ais523> the bits that are there in kde4 are nice, but the bits that are missing are missing
22:05:51 <ehird_> fizzie: Yeah
22:06:19 <ehird_> The fonts are a ... bit oversized.
22:06:21 <fizzie> Last I looked, the old "radeon" driver had no support for things newer than R400, but it seems they've added those R500/R600 cards too nowadays.
22:06:24 <ehird_> I don't think it's grasped the 100dpi thing yet.
22:06:47 <ehird_> http://xs233.xs.to/xs233/08463/snapshot1258.png big screenshot
22:07:04 <ais523> ehird_: strange website to put it on...
22:07:11 <ehird_> ais523: default startup page :P
22:07:21 <ais523> I mean, xs233.xs.to
22:07:48 <ehird_> ah.
22:07:52 <ehird_> xs.to is an imagehosting service.
22:07:54 <ais523> ok
22:08:06 <ehird_> but yeah, those fonts are huge.
22:08:10 <ais523> anyway, looks good, although obviously the anti-aliasing doesn't look right in a screenshot
22:08:17 <fizzie> You can set the DPI in xorg.conf, but that thing also is probably somewhere in them preferences.
22:08:19 <ais523> there should be an option to globally shrink fonts somewhere
22:08:27 <ehird_> yeah
22:09:35 <fizzie> It would be a good idea to tell it the real DPI of the panel -- although optimally it should be clever enough to figure that out by itself -- so that things that care, like Gimp, know it.
22:09:50 * ehird_ tries to set mouse accelleration to <1x
22:09:54 <ehird_> Toooooooo faaaaaaast
22:10:39 <ais523> I have quite a slow mouse speed by default
22:10:41 * ehird_ installs subpixel hinting
22:11:03 <ehird_> Delicious.
22:11:08 <ais523> ehird_: with a dpi that high you'll have to stare really hard at the screen to figure out which of the 4 options works best, won't you?
22:11:17 <ehird_> Heh.
22:11:33 <ehird_> The DPI is high enough that Full is obviously the best option.
22:11:45 <ais523> I meant stripe order
22:11:49 <ehird_> ah.
22:11:52 <ehird_> obviously RGB
22:11:52 <ais523> it took me a lot of staring to work out what it was on my screen
22:12:00 <ehird_> ais523: almost certainly rgb.
22:12:13 <ais523> yep
22:12:18 <fizzie> What's the screen size there, then?
22:12:24 <ehird_> Here?
22:12:25 <ais523> 1280*800
22:12:27 <ehird_> 1680x1280
22:12:55 <fizzie> I meant physical size; but right, you said 100 DPI. Somehow I read that as a hypothetical example or something.
22:13:34 <ehird_> ah.
22:13:36 <ehird_> 21"
22:13:46 -!- Sgeo[College] has joined.
22:13:53 <ehird_> (Next up on #esoteric: Someone gets the brilliant idea to take that out of context)
22:14:05 <ais523> hi Sgeo
22:14:12 <ehird_> GRR
22:14:19 <Sgeo[College]> Hi ais523
22:14:21 <ehird_> ais523: HOW DO I STOP THE RESIZE CONTROLS FROM APPEARING ON MAXIMIZED WINDOWS
22:14:25 <ehird_> IT IS DESTROYING MY FITT'S LAW
22:14:35 <fizzie> This 24" 1920x1200 screen has (well, if I believe what the driver says) 94 DPI, which is a reasonably nice combination.
22:14:43 <ais523> ehird_: if you're on KDE, it has an option for absolutely everything I think
22:14:47 <ais523> you just have to find it
22:14:48 <ehird_> 120dpi here, i think.
22:14:56 <ehird_> ais523: Whatever happened to reasonable defaults?
22:15:00 <ais523> (on KDE 4, I couldn't find the options at all)
22:15:01 <ehird_> Oh wait, this is Linux.
22:15:30 <ais523> hmm... it seems that maximised windows don't have resize handles any more on this version of Gnome, they used to
22:15:44 <ais523> I think I even used them on occasion
22:16:18 * ehird_ changes all system fonts to helvetica because bitstream is the scourge of the earth
22:16:34 <ehird_> Wat.
22:16:35 <ehird_> No Helvetica.
22:16:45 <ehird_> Oh right, it's non-free.
22:16:59 <ais523> well, that doesn't mean a Linux version doesn't exist
22:17:10 <ehird_> I sure feel freedom-enhancedwith this. Free by default!
22:17:22 <ais523> not everyone has the same love of helvetica you do...
22:17:51 <ehird_> I never said that.
22:18:04 <ehird_> But it's kind of sad that there are like 3 fonts on this system, and they're all free, and they're all pig-ugly.
22:18:08 <ais523> not today, I'm pretty sure you implied you did years ago though
22:18:21 <ais523> and what sort of package choice does gobolinux install by default?
22:18:31 <ehird_> More barebones than Ubuntu.
22:18:37 <ais523> if it's not many packages, it seems relatively likely that they only installed just enough fonts to get the thing working
22:18:43 <ais523> and have more as options
22:18:44 <ehird_> System stuff, openoffice, browser, irc client, etc
22:18:45 <ehird_> that's about it
22:18:58 <ais523> didn't you install the IRC client yourself?
22:19:47 <ehird_> No; a shitty circa-2002 one came by default.
22:19:55 <ehird_> "KSirc"
22:20:09 <Sgeo[College]> ehird_ CTCP: VERSION Konversation 1.0.1 (C) 2002-2006 by the Konversation team
22:20:13 <ais523> ok, presumably it's so people can get help on a newly installed version
22:20:39 <ais523> hmm... I have a newer Konversation than ehird_, it seems
22:20:50 <ehird_> Eh, that's expected.
22:21:17 <ehird_> No sound on this; that's annoying.
22:21:32 <oklopol> there's a prefectly good set of characters in the rom, why use fonts :o
22:21:51 <ais523> ehird_: there are about 6 different options for sound under Linux, IME about 3 or 4 of them work on any given system
22:21:55 <ehird_> i bet the oklotalk OS will be like colorforth except moreso
22:21:57 <ais523> KDE4 autoselects one that works which is nice
22:22:01 <Sgeo[College]> When I put Freespire on my laptop, sound worked, but there was no way to control the volume
22:22:01 <ehird_> ais523: yeah, but drivers, yo.
22:22:03 <Sgeo[College]> </random>
22:22:13 <oklopol> i don't know colorforth, but if it's mentioned two more times, i will look at it
22:22:18 <ehird_> hahaha, freespire
22:22:20 <ehird_> oklopol: colorforht
22:22:22 <ehird_> colorforth
22:22:23 <ehird_> colorforth
22:22:25 <oklopol> (and the two colorforths ehird now says don't count)
22:22:38 <oklopol> (damn my slow typing)
22:23:05 <ehird_> colorforth
22:23:06 <ehird_> colorforth
22:23:10 <ehird_> oklopol: it's not "now" any more
22:23:12 <ais523> I've heard colorforth mentioned before, but I don't know what it is
22:23:13 <ehird_> it's after now.
22:23:17 <ais523> maybe I should look at it too
22:23:27 <ais523> but it's easier to wait here and hope someone will tell me what it is
22:23:45 <ehird_> ais523: colorforth is a magical unicorn.
22:24:09 <oklopol> i assume it's some kinda gui for forth, but i have no idea really.
22:24:15 <ehird_> nah
22:24:20 <ehird_> it's an OS written in assembly and forth
22:24:24 <ehird_> the assembly is like 100 lines
22:24:26 <ehird_> and the rest is forth
22:24:29 <ehird_> written by chuck moore
22:24:31 <ehird_> creator of forth
22:24:31 <ehird_> also
22:24:35 <ehird_> it's literally colorforth
22:24:38 <Sgeo[College]> ehird_, Freespire only sucks when you realize that you've been using Ubuntu for a while and all your settings are on Ubuntu and you're too lazy to transfer stuff and also when printers don't just work, but due to some boot record mixup or something you're unable to boot to Ubuntu
22:24:39 <ehird_> instead of : and ; and stuff
22:24:41 <ehird_> you use colours.
22:24:49 <ehird_> Sgeo[College]: freespire sucks because it's linspire
22:24:57 <ehird_> AKA Lindows
22:25:06 <oklopol> hmm, that does sound interesting
22:25:09 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: "too lazy to transfer stuff"? just copy across all the dot directories
22:25:25 <Sgeo[College]> But I wanted Freespire to be somewhat distinct
22:25:43 <ehird_> how could you possible conform to the linux masses :D
22:26:00 <ais523> so... it sucks because it doesn't have your settings, you could easily copy your settings but you want it to be different so you don't?
22:27:09 <ehird_> ehird@kitten ~]sudo InstallPackage KDE
22:27:11 <ehird_> UPGRADE TIME
22:27:11 * Sgeo[College] vaguely thinks that he should never have switched from Windows to Linux
22:27:19 <ehird_> kitten
22:27:19 <ehird_> :3
22:27:25 * ehird_ upgrades his kitten.
22:28:19 <ehird_> The funny thing is, GoboLinux is pretty much exactly what any distribution I made would be like.
22:28:23 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: why?
22:28:39 <ehird_> MOUSE YOU HAVE A SCROLLWHEEL USE IT
22:28:39 <oklopol> i switched to linux, then back, all that changed is now i know linux is basically the same os as windows.
22:28:46 <ehird_> YES ITS A FANCY 3D ONE BUT GODDAMN >:(
22:28:50 <oklopol> i used to think it was something much more awesome
22:28:53 <Sgeo[College]> ais523: There are a lot of Windows-only programs I like
22:28:54 <ehird_> oklopol: from a user perspective, maybe
22:28:56 <ehird_> but internally, way different.
22:29:12 <oklopol> it's a very primitive os.
22:29:20 <oklopol> no matter how you look at it
22:29:27 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: ah, ok
22:29:27 <Sgeo[College]> Funny thing is, at this point in time, Linux is working better than Windows, and SL does not work well on Windows for me for some reason
22:29:42 <Sgeo[College]> But that's not the sort of thing I entered into using Linux on a regular basis knowing
22:29:42 <Doitle2> This might seem out of nowhere but has anyone ever played Sysop 3 on a BBS?
22:29:52 <ehird_> Nope.
22:29:53 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: I thought sl was just a silly program that showed a picture of a steam train, to punish people for typoing "ls"
22:29:56 <oklopol> ->
22:30:05 <ais523> Doitle2: I expect someone has, I haven't though
22:30:10 <Sgeo[College]> I didn't realize that installers would break on my Windows partition, and I didn't realize that SL would work better on Linux
22:30:12 <ehird_> ais523: SL = second life
22:30:13 <Sgeo[College]> SL == Second Life
22:30:13 <ehird_> I assume
22:30:20 <ais523> I guessed...
22:30:30 <ehird_> ehird@kitten ~]sl
22:30:30 <ehird_> Desktop  logs  snapshot1.png
22:30:37 <ehird_> no steam locomotives here
22:30:58 <Doitle2> I can't figure out how to make money and my phone line is damaged and I can't afford the service call to get it fixed... I'm a terrible Sysop
22:31:22 <ehird_> Doitle2: You missed the 80s. Sorry to be the bringer of bad news. :-P
22:31:44 <ais523> Doitle2: who are you, anyway? I don't think I've seen you around here before
22:31:45 <Doitle2> Exactly, I wasn't old enough to run my own BBS back in the 80s so I'm getting to experience a lost art
22:31:46 <ehird_> Wow, GoboLinux can auto-merge config files for new versions.
22:31:55 <Sgeo[College]> Is it sane to get irritated when one's economics professor states that the "70" in the Rule of 70 was derived by trial and error, when the Rule of 70 is clearly purely mathematical in nature, and not an estimatation based on economic observations/
22:32:07 <ehird_> Sgeo[College]: i dunno lol
22:32:08 <Doitle2> I joined maybe... 4-5 days ago after playing around with some BF and then joinin #bf and being redirected here
22:32:11 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: it rather depends on what the rule of 70 is
22:32:16 <ais523> ah, ok
22:32:22 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!Hello, then!
22:32:23 <fungot> Hello, then!
22:32:30 <ehird_> SOMEONE FIX MY MOUSE WHEEL
22:32:33 <ehird_> optbot: say hi to Doitle2
22:32:33 <optbot> ehird_: :D
22:32:44 <ehird_> http://www.marteydodoo.com/2007/06/08/wireless-mighty-mouse-on-ubuntu-linux/
22:32:45 <ehird_> oho
22:32:46 <ais523> +ul (hi Doitle2)S
22:32:46 <thutubot> hi Doitle2
22:32:54 <Sgeo[College]> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_70
22:33:59 <Doitle2> Does that bot interperet BF code?
22:34:10 <Doitle2> If not does that exist, if not if not... Could I make one... hmm
22:34:15 <ehird_> Doitle2: fungot interprets bF
22:34:15 <fungot> ehird_: for a new order of succession, that player
22:34:18 <ehird_> and is writen in befunge
22:34:26 <ehird_> thutubot is written in thutu (string rewriting language)
22:34:28 <ehird_> and interprets underload
22:34:33 <ais523> bots that interpret BF code aren't all that hard
22:34:35 <ehird_> optbot is written in ruby, and talks nonsense.
22:34:36 <optbot> ehird_: lame :P
22:34:41 <fizzie> Haha.
22:34:46 <ais523> hey, fungot talks nonsense too!
22:34:46 <fungot> ais523: elements: grafty
22:34:48 <ehird_> optbot: yes, you are pretty lame
22:34:48 <optbot> ehird_: 3.2.2
22:34:53 <ehird_> optbot: what
22:34:54 <optbot> ehird_: 1 pgimeno: bf
22:34:56 <ehird_> optbot: shut up
22:34:56 <optbot> ehird_: it's loosely based on Sonata form
22:35:01 <ehird_> +ul (optbot)S
22:35:02 <thutubot> optbot
22:35:02 <optbot> ehird_: but blame my .bashrc for some of that
22:35:02 <optbot> thutubot: ok :)
22:35:06 <ehird_> Hmph.
22:35:21 <lament> optbot!
22:35:21 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | their own stack, own loaded fingerprints, position, delta, etc.....
22:35:28 <ais523> we need bots for more esolangs in here, really
22:35:34 <ais523> EgoBot did loads of them when it was around
22:35:34 -!- jix has quit ("...").
22:35:52 <ais523> atm we only have Underload and Brainfuck
22:36:08 <ais523> hmm... also fungot can run raw Funge as it has an eval command, but only fizzie can use it because it isn't sandboxed in any way
22:36:08 <fungot> ais523: message to the
22:36:10 -!- oklokok has joined.
22:36:16 <ais523> ^style ss
22:36:16 <fungot> Selected style: ss
22:36:25 <fizzie> fungot runs underload too; although doing underload is not significantly harder than brainfuck in Befunge, especially if you do what I did and use the STRN fingerprint.
22:36:26 <ais523> fungot: spout some Shakespeare-like nonsense at me
22:36:26 <fungot> fizzie: cam. euen he, your wife, is she drown'd? queen. i see no sense for't, but some defect in her did quarrell with the noblest grace she ow'd, and put vp my yron dagger. answere me like men: when griping griefes the heart doth wound, then musicke with her siluer sound, because musitions sound for siluer pet. pratest to, what say you?
22:36:26 * Sgeo[College] is offended to learn that quite possibly, the rule of 70 was in fact initially derived by trial and error
22:36:27 <fungot> ais523: lenox. and that set together is noddy for my paines: i pray thee fnord them, with a quietness of spirit, life, honour, truth, and everything in readiness for fnord fnord i will have forty moys, or i: yet, you rogue!
22:36:41 <fizzie> The Bard was so fond of fnords.
22:36:45 <ehird_> gobo comes with nano but not vi...
22:36:48 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: because people didn't know how to logarithmise 2
22:37:31 <fizzie> (One version of) NetBSD comes with "ex" with instructions for "here's how to mount /usr in advance if you're such a wimp that you need vi instead of ex for config-file editing".
22:38:08 <lament> ex is a crazy bitch
22:38:26 <Sgeo[College]> <==goes to read new Fine Structure
22:38:31 <ais523> "if you're such a wimp that you need vi instead of ex for config-file editing"
22:38:43 <ais523> that's the sort of attitude designed to repel people from Linux, I think
22:38:46 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:38:51 <fizzie> Well, maybe it wasn't written exactly with those words.
22:39:03 <fizzie> That's just my interpretation.
22:39:26 <ehird_> ais523: that's called a joke, I think
22:39:49 <ais523> they should have bundled a full GUI with the config file
22:40:02 <ais523> written in INTERCAL
22:40:52 * ehird_ gets scared: He's starting to like linux
22:40:58 <ehird_> For an actual desktop OS :P
22:41:29 <ehird_> I'm sure it will piss me off soon enough.,
22:42:10 <ais523> oh, all OSs annoy me, it's just a case of sticking to one I can learn to get around
22:42:19 <AnMaster> night
22:42:23 <ais523> ubuntu-proposed is nice as when it annoys me I can normally fix it
22:42:25 <ais523> AnMaster: night
22:42:32 <ais523> and when I can't I can wait for someone else to often
22:42:53 <ehird_> you know, some day, firefox and emacs will merge.
22:43:01 <ehird_> and then grow a desktop environment.
22:43:04 <AnMaster> hehehe
22:43:06 <ehird_> and then a kernel, and a bootloader.
22:43:11 <ais523> ehird_: I've decided that emcas was in fact originally intended to be an OS not an editor
22:43:16 <ehird_> finally, you'll go out to the store
22:43:17 <AnMaster> emcas?
22:43:20 <ais523> emacs
22:43:22 <ehird_> and buy a Firemacs
22:43:30 <AnMaster> ais523, Extended Magic Computer Algebra System?
22:43:30 <AnMaster> :D
22:43:33 <ehird_> meaning that it has finally grown physical hardware.
22:43:35 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:43:35 <fizzie> Our work-workstations switched from SuSE into Ubuntu recently; following the hipness.
22:43:44 <AnMaster> funny bacronym IMO
22:44:07 -!- oklokok has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:44:09 <ais523> my favourite bacronym for Emacs is ESC Meta-Alt-Ctrl-Shift-...
22:44:12 <oklopol> AnMaster: is that a funny backronym for FBI?
22:44:14 <lament> emacs is a very old piece of software with no future
22:44:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, hahah
22:44:30 <AnMaster> oklopol, no
22:44:36 <AnMaster> I meant the one for emcas
22:44:39 <oklopol> sleep? yes. ->
22:44:41 <AnMaster> the typo of emacs
22:45:13 <AnMaster> ais523, also it is a nethack reference
22:45:16 <ehird_> lament: how come nobody calls _you_ out for your opinionated, unjustified statements
22:45:17 <ehird_> :D
22:45:21 <AnMaster> I hope you understand it
22:45:30 <ehird_> fwiw i agree.
22:45:33 <AnMaster> lament, also you are wrong
22:45:43 <lament> ehird_: see? they do
22:45:47 <ehird_> oh joy, AnMaster noticed your prescense
22:45:58 <ehird_> lament: i think you should just kick AnMaster forever.
22:46:00 <lament> AnMaster: wrong how?
22:46:00 <ehird_> discuss.
22:46:10 <AnMaster> lament, because editor choice is subjective
22:46:19 <lament> sure
22:46:21 <ais523> AnMaster: actually a very very vague slashem reference that took me about 10 seconds to get after I was told it was there
22:46:22 <ehird_> he said nothing about editor choice
22:46:30 <AnMaster> lament, I even know a few people who use ed daily
22:46:39 <lament> AnMaster: sure, how does that make me wrong?
22:46:40 <AnMaster> ais523, no nethack too
22:46:50 <AnMaster> ais523, NetHack EM existed iirc
22:47:00 <AnMaster> it got merged into normal nethack
22:47:06 <AnMaster> around version 3 or so
22:47:07 <AnMaster> iirc
22:47:07 <ais523> it was a patch, not a different version
22:47:13 <AnMaster> ais523, ah maybe
22:47:13 <ais523> and IIRC it was called the wizard patch
22:47:57 <AnMaster> ais523, ok
22:47:58 <ehird_> I wonder how AnMaster would react to gobolinux.
22:48:01 <ehird_> Shit, I just alerted him to it
22:48:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I like it, but I see a few issues
22:48:12 <AnMaster> the general idea I like
22:48:25 <ehird_> Which issues? It's been working fine for me.
22:48:25 <AnMaster> basically I dislike the dir hiding kernel module
22:48:49 <ehird_> "Get rid of the filesystem cruft, as long as you don't get rid of the filesystem cruft."
22:48:50 <ehird_> I see.
22:48:51 <fizzie> Yes, Slash'EM is a combination of SLASH and the Wizard Patch.
22:48:52 <AnMaster> ehird, but other than that I think it got some very good idea
22:49:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I haven't personally tried it however
22:49:08 <AnMaster> so can't be any more specific
22:49:18 <Sgeo[College]> Bye all
22:49:42 <AnMaster> ehird, and to me it is just an alternative package manager
22:49:44 -!- Sgeo[College] has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
22:49:48 <AnMaster> as far as I know
22:49:54 <AnMaster> as I said, I haven't personally tried it
22:50:24 <ehird_> It isn't.
22:50:39 <ais523> it's an alternative directory structure
22:50:41 <ehird_> It's just a decluttering of the filesystem layout that happens to let you have no package manager.
22:50:45 <ehird_> Also, it's a regular distro besides.
22:50:54 <ehird_> Not really a one-trick pony.
22:51:01 * ais523 wonders about a reverse-symlink gobolinux, which works exactly the same except that the symlinks are the other way round
22:51:13 <ehird_> ais523: That would kind of defeat the point, though.
22:51:17 <AnMaster> ais523, heh
22:51:20 <ais523> really? what's the difference?
22:51:20 <ehird_> :P
22:51:25 <ais523> the cleanup scripts would work just as well
22:51:28 <ehird_> ais523: you benefit because the physical layout is like that
22:51:34 <ais523> how, exactly/
22:51:36 <ehird_> e.g. you can't have two versions simultaneously in the traditional layout
22:51:44 <ehird_> how can you have two version dirs linking to /usr/bin/prog
22:51:46 <AnMaster> different names
22:51:46 <ehird_> you can't
22:51:52 <AnMaster> autoconf-2.6
22:51:53 <AnMaster> autoconf-2.5
22:51:55 <ehird_> AnMaster: So, essentially, you defeat the point of gobolinux.
22:51:57 <ehird_> excellent.
22:51:58 <ais523> ehird_: well how does it deal with that normally, given the symlinks are needed?
22:52:04 <ais523> it links one and not the other
22:52:05 <AnMaster> ehird, was just making a point
22:52:12 <ehird_> ais523: It just symlinks the active version. But the point is, /Programs is a permanent store.
22:52:15 <ehird_> No "active" concept.
22:52:16 <ais523> so you'd end up with one in the old tree and one in the new tree, dormant but runnable
22:52:27 <ais523> better still: hardlinks!
22:52:44 <ais523> you just need some way to find the other end of a hardlink that's more efficient than scanning the entire filesystem
22:52:47 <ehird_> anyway, there's no actual reason to do it the reverse way
22:52:49 <ais523> (or the other 2+ ends)
22:52:59 <ehird_> the symlinks are only there for legacy programs which can't handle a different layout.
22:53:03 <ais523> I'm just trying to demonstrate that the idea isn't so different
22:53:12 <AnMaster> hardlinks break separate / /usr and so on
22:53:14 <AnMaster> which I use
22:53:17 <ais523> ehird_: no, not at all, they're also there for the PATH
22:53:21 <AnMaster> since I put everything but / and /boot on lvm
22:53:23 <ehird_> AnMaster: overlay mounts
22:53:24 <ais523> and for finding shared libraries
22:53:30 <ehird_> AnMaster: is the reccomended solution for gobolinux
22:53:34 <AnMaster> ehird_, hardlinks still doesn't work that way ;)
22:53:42 <ais523> ehird_: I don't think you can do hardlinks across filesystems is AnMaster's point
22:53:42 <ehird_> well, sure
22:53:44 <AnMaster> ehird, or you mean unionfs?
22:53:45 <ehird_> yes
22:53:55 <AnMaster> hm
22:53:59 * ehird_ writes OS that uses RDF as a filesystem.
22:54:00 <ais523> well, I think you should be able to, that's an FS implementation deficiency rather than anything semantic
22:54:08 <AnMaster> ehird, does gobolinux work with /usr on LVM?
22:54:14 <ehird_> AnMaster: no idea.
22:54:16 <ehird_> try it.
22:54:17 <AnMaster> hm ok
22:54:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I will if I get a computer to try it on
22:54:30 <ehird_> Heh, I'm using binary packages and it's still taking hours to update KDE4.
22:54:35 <AnMaster> or virtual box I guess
22:54:37 <ehird_> Mostly because of the myriad dependencies.
22:54:41 <ais523> AnMaster: there's nothing in /System/Links/Executables (which /usr is a symlink to) but symlinks on gobolinux
22:54:51 <ais523> so putting it in a separate filesystem would be kind-of silly
22:54:55 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, and that is an issue
22:55:02 <ehird_> no its not
22:55:05 <AnMaster> ais523, since I use read only mounted /
22:55:05 <ehird_> symlinks take up 0 space
22:55:07 <AnMaster> for security issues
22:55:10 <ehird_> just put the actual LINKED files in the right place
22:55:15 <ehird_> security issues lol :D
22:55:21 <AnMaster> security reasons*
22:55:22 <AnMaster> typoed
22:55:29 <ais523> ehird_: actually, one interesting point that gobolinux's explanation page didn't cover is how to simulate a read-only /usr
22:55:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I am paranoid
22:55:37 <ehird_> i really want to see the person AnMaster has in his head attacking his computer
22:55:38 <AnMaster> ais523, read only / you mean
22:55:38 <ais523> /usr is designed so it can be, after all
22:55:41 <ehird_> because he must be really, really clever
22:55:42 <ehird_> and fast
22:55:46 <ehird_> and invincible
22:55:49 <AnMaster> ais523, true
22:55:51 <ehird_> and have the fastest supercomputer to crack things
22:55:51 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I mean read-only /usr, that's entirely possible
22:55:55 <ehird_> and is working for the government
22:55:59 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah
22:55:59 <ehird_> WHO DID 9/11 WAKE UP SHEEPLE
22:56:02 <ais523> why do you think /var exists?
22:56:08 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed
22:56:27 <ais523> to do that on gobolinux you'd somehow have to have all the executables on a different filesystem
22:56:49 <AnMaster> ais523, yes
22:56:58 <AnMaster> ais523, and that is the second downside kind of
22:57:00 <ehird_> ais523: ask #gobolinux.
22:57:03 <ehird_> AnMaster too.
22:57:04 <ais523> and I don't think even overlay mounts solve that
22:57:13 <ais523> and yes, I will, because I think it would be interesting to have a solution
22:57:14 <AnMaster> ehird, well I will if I plan to install it
22:57:20 <AnMaster> now I'm planning to go to bed
22:57:25 <AnMaster> really need to
22:57:32 <ais523> I'd like to see this solved, rather than point to it and say haha
22:57:49 <AnMaster> ais523, ok
22:58:31 <AnMaster> ais523, my guess is you can't
22:58:40 <ais523> well, make a solution then!
22:58:43 <AnMaster> ais523, also the separate / and /usr doesn't work well
22:58:49 <AnMaster> as far as I can figure out
22:58:53 <ais523> on gobolinux or in general?
22:58:54 <ehird_> AnMaster: that's just because you like seeing things other than the solution you use fail
22:58:57 <AnMaster> ais523, on gobo
22:59:07 <AnMaster> since / contains the stuff needed to mount the /usr
22:59:08 <ais523> AnMaster: well, exactly, you'd separate / and /Programs instead
22:59:11 <AnMaster> including lvm and such
22:59:21 <AnMaster> and those would just be symlinks to the /Programs
22:59:23 <AnMaster> on lvm
22:59:27 <AnMaster> ...catch-22
22:59:29 <ehird_> there is a /System FYI.
22:59:33 <AnMaster> ehird, ah
22:59:38 <AnMaster> that solves it I guess
22:59:43 <ehird_> ehird@kitten ~]ls /System
22:59:43 <ehird_> Kernel  Links  Settings  Variable
22:59:45 <ehird_> no libs, though
22:59:48 <AnMaster> ah
22:59:52 <AnMaster> doesn't help
22:59:54 <ehird_> but the kernel, /boot, modules, etc.
22:59:58 <ehird_> startup scripts
22:59:59 <ehird_> et al
23:00:13 <fizzie> Quite a lot of people have a "read-only shared /usr from NFS" setups; I'm sure someone has had time to think about it.
23:00:18 <AnMaster> ehird, needs what other distros call the statically linkd /sbin/lvm
23:00:24 <ais523> AnMaster: gobolinux's answer to that is "it's 2008, have you never heard of a LiveCD?"
23:00:36 <ais523> although, hmm... that's not very good on remote servers I suppose
23:00:36 <AnMaster> ais523, that made no sense
23:01:05 <ais523> fizzie: I asked in #gobolinux but nobody's answered yet
23:01:07 <AnMaster> ais523, I didn't see that answer in #gobolinux?
23:01:21 <ais523> AnMaster: I was referring to the mount being not on /usr thing
23:01:24 <AnMaster> ah
23:01:43 <AnMaster> ais523, well I guess you could do it with a messy initramfs
23:01:45 <ais523> you're right, it makes no sense with respect to the read-only /usr thing
23:01:54 <ehird_> #gobolinux just slowed down XD
23:02:08 <ehird_> AnMaster: iirc, initramfs IS the gobolinux solution to that crap
23:02:24 <ehird_> nothing wrong with that,.
23:02:33 <ehird_> except they seem to call it squashfs
23:02:50 <ehird_> http://squashfs.sourceforge.net/
23:02:55 <ehird_> maybe not
23:03:02 <AnMaster> err
23:03:08 <AnMaster> sqashfs is something else
23:03:12 <AnMaster> squashfs*
23:03:20 <AnMaster> it is a compressed read only fs
23:03:24 <ehird_> right
23:03:25 <AnMaster> used on installcds and such
23:03:46 <ais523> sort of like busybox, but for filesystems?
23:03:57 <AnMaster> ehird, afaik kernel can't use it for initramfs. which is a compressed ext2 image iirc
23:03:58 <ais523> s/install CDs/install floppy disks/
23:04:05 <AnMaster> IIRC!
23:04:10 <ais523> because I think it's great being able to put busybox on a floppy disk
23:04:16 <ais523> AnMaster: I IRC too, so does everyone in this channel
23:04:18 <AnMaster> ais523, hahah
23:04:25 <AnMaster> ..
23:04:30 <fizzie> There is squashfs initrd support.
23:04:35 <ehird_> The gobolinux installer defaults the filesystem to reiserfs, it was released in 2008-04
23:04:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh ok
23:04:37 <ehird_> that was rather amusing :)
23:04:44 <AnMaster> ehird, yes.
23:04:49 <AnMaster> I would use ext3 or xfs
23:04:52 <fizzie> I'm not sure if it's in the mainstream kernel, but it exists.
23:04:53 <ehird_> using ext3, yes.
23:04:57 <ais523> ehird_: I've been waiting several months for an opportunity to make that joke
23:05:07 <ehird_> You know, surely reiser's corporation will carry on maintaining it.
23:05:13 <ehird_> Although I suppose they'll change the name :-P
23:05:25 <ehird_> they might as well call it BabyKillerFS
23:05:27 <AnMaster> ehird, what reiserfs version?
23:05:31 <ehird_> AnMaster: dunno.
23:05:33 <AnMaster> ah
23:05:45 <ehird_> AnMaster: i am actually using lilo instead of grub
23:05:46 <ehird_> :-O
23:05:52 <AnMaster> ehird, also I got some old installs still using reiser, since back in 2004 or so
23:05:53 <AnMaster> and
23:05:56 <AnMaster> fragmentation
23:06:04 <AnMaster> heavy fragmentation
23:06:13 * ehird_ waits to be asked why lilo, not grub
23:06:14 <AnMaster> ehird, weird, why not grub?
23:06:21 <AnMaster> or elillo?
23:06:23 <ehird_> AnMaster: EFI
23:06:30 <AnMaster> ehird, oh isn't that elilo then?
23:06:35 <ehird_> nah, rEFIt
23:06:35 <AnMaster> instead of lilo
23:06:39 <ehird_> basically
23:06:44 <ehird_> it's lilo with 0 timeout
23:06:44 <ehird_> and
23:06:49 <AnMaster>      Description:         Linux boot loader for EFI-based systems such as IA-64
23:06:50 <ehird_> rEFIt, the boot manager thingy
23:06:50 <AnMaster> oh
23:06:52 <AnMaster> right
23:06:59 <ehird_> boots it with bios emulation
23:07:00 <ehird_> and mbr
23:07:02 <ehird_> and that sort of crap
23:07:10 <ehird_> and so lilo picks it up and boots into linux immediately
23:07:17 <ehird_> grub requires a patch to work with refit, apparently
23:07:30 <AnMaster> ehird, linux supports EFI
23:07:46 <ehird_> AnMaster: that's all very nice on paper.
23:08:01 <ehird_> it'd be even nicer if it meant something in practice, but it doesn't, and this is the only sane setup you can get
23:08:04 <AnMaster> ah it is incomplete?
23:08:10 <AnMaster> oh well
23:08:16 <ehird_> i don't even know; I know that you can't get 2d accelleration with efi
23:08:26 <ehird_> but i didn't even want to bother trying to coerce it into working
23:08:28 <AnMaster> ehird, what? that made no sense
23:09:13 <fizzie> GRUB 2 should do EFI quite well; at least that's what they've been saying. Not sure if I'd dare to use that thing just yet, though.
23:09:53 <AnMaster> heh
23:09:54 <AnMaster> same
23:10:20 <ehird_> Upgrade faster, KDE. :~
23:12:16 <ehird_> UPGRADED
23:12:43 <AnMaster> ehird, tried archlinux btw?
23:13:00 <ehird_> no, don't feel any particular inclination to
23:13:04 <AnMaster> hm probably too manual for you
23:13:09 <ehird_> what makes it unique?
23:13:12 <AnMaster> it is like a binary gentoo in certain ways
23:13:23 <AnMaster> I like it on slower systems
23:13:26 <ehird_> and the advantages are....
23:13:31 <AnMaster> i686 optimised
23:13:35 <ehird_> so is gobolinux
23:13:36 <AnMaster> not a lot of gui stuff
23:13:38 <ehird_> it doesn't even support i386
23:13:40 <AnMaster> traditional
23:13:54 <ehird_> i don't see how traditional=good
23:14:02 <AnMaster> ehird, no, it is a matter of taste
23:14:13 <ehird_> or a matter of masochism
23:14:15 <AnMaster> it got a fast package manager ;P
23:14:24 <AnMaster> blazing fast
23:14:26 <ehird_> so has gobo; it's called ext3
23:14:28 <fizzie> I'm probably stuck with this Debian, since I happen to like it and know rather well how to use it.
23:14:34 <AnMaster> ehird, well you said KDE took long
23:14:36 <fizzie> ^style irc
23:14:36 <fungot> Selected style: irc
23:14:44 <ehird_> AnMaster: that was just the downloading.
23:14:49 <ehird_> and the fact that it has 5000000 dependencies anyway.
23:14:51 <AnMaster> ehird, ah right
23:15:01 <fizzie> (Asleep.)
23:15:05 <AnMaster> night too
23:15:52 <ehird_> Ugh. Stupid CMake and its "you have to build me with myself" fetish.
23:17:03 <AnMaster> ehird, heh?
23:17:15 <AnMaster> oh you mean it bootstraps itself
23:17:16 <AnMaster> yeah
23:17:21 <AnMaster> it takes quite long
23:17:36 <ehird_> You just built yourself with autotools, so shut up, you don't have to do it again.
23:17:38 * ehird_ shoots cmake
23:17:57 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it builds a stripped down version
23:18:09 <AnMaster> somewhat like stage 1 gcc
23:28:43 -!- ehird has quit (Nick collision from services.).
23:28:46 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
23:28:58 -!- _ehird has joined.
23:29:53 <AnMaster> night
23:29:56 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:30:07 <ais523> wow, I'm about to miss my train, gtg...
23:38:33 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: what's this i hear about boolean evaluation?
23:38:52 <bsmntbombdood> oerjan: i can't figure out how to do it efficiently
23:39:15 <oerjan> O(n) with respect to what?
23:39:52 <bsmntbombdood> the size of the hash table
23:40:20 <oerjan> could you repeat the problem?
23:40:52 <bsmntbombdood> i have a hash table that maps items to lists of tags
23:41:02 <oerjan> (rephrasing, preferably, as i recall not understanding what you wanted when reading the first time)
23:41:40 <bsmntbombdood> i need to return all the items whose tags make a boolean expression evaluate to true
23:41:42 <oerjan> oh and you want to find all items that have a certain boolean expression in the tags true?
23:41:49 <oerjan> oops :)
23:43:14 <oerjan> and the expression may vary?
23:43:27 <bsmntbombdood> yeah
23:44:35 <oerjan> didn't we discuss this once before?  possibly without finding a solution
23:44:49 <bsmntbombdood> i don't think so...
23:44:50 <oerjan> we = someone on this channel, at least
23:46:20 <oerjan> hm isn't it NP-complete just to find out if there _are_ any hits
23:47:09 <bsmntbombdood> NP-complete?
23:47:21 <bsmntbombdood> the obvious algorith is O(n)
23:47:24 <bsmntbombdood> n is number of items
23:47:31 <oerjan> in the expression size
23:48:00 <oerjan> let's say the items have _all_ possible combinations of tags on/off
23:48:55 <oerjan> then finding the hits requires minimally solving SAT for the expression
23:49:17 <oerjan> which is not essentially easier than brute force search i think
23:49:34 <oerjan> which means O(n) in the hash table size may be optimal for that case
23:50:33 <bsmntbombdood> how do search engines do it then?
23:50:35 <oerjan> (assuming there is no essentially better SAT solving algorithm, a famous problem indeed)
23:51:08 <oerjan> well they rarely allow arbitrary boolean expressions do they?
23:51:15 <ehird> google doe
23:51:15 <ehird> s
23:51:21 <ehird> (NOT A) and B or (NOT C)
23:51:42 <oerjan> well if the expression is much smaller than log of the hashtable size
23:52:29 <oerjan> as it would usually be for a web search i should think :D
23:53:22 <oerjan> i see.  so this is essentially how to design part of a search engine...
23:53:22 <fizzie> If your tags are rather rare, you can have just indices for those items where A, B, ... are true, and then you can do "(not A) and B" by taking the set-difference of B true and A true.
23:53:42 <bsmntbombdood> fizzie: won't work
23:55:25 <oerjan> i'm sure it would be a good idea to search relevant literature.
23:56:03 <fizzie> That's what your garden-variety search engine does, though; for example postgres's tsearch2. The documents are turned into lists of words, and then it keeps an index which tells you which documents contain what words.
23:56:19 <oerjan> if there is no obvious solution, but google is obviously doing it, then there are probably research articles and/or patents
23:56:49 <fizzie> I've had someone from Google explain their general architecture to me (as a visiting lecturer), but I've mostly forgotten it.
23:57:59 <oerjan> i would expect them to start with the frequency of each word and then generate a search strategy based on starting with the rarest words
23:58:21 <oerjan> perhaps even indexing pairs of words
23:59:13 <oerjan> s/i would expect them/my first idea to do such a thing would be/