< 1224031736 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"@+" < 1224032230 0 :Corun!n=Corun@94-192-102-5.zone6.bethere.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1224032344 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1224032358 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1224032369 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1224034543 0 :Corun!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1224034915 0 :psygnisfive!n=psygnisf@c-71-57-164-119.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1224034926 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I IS HERE < 1224035689 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1224038523 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf68ca.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1224040026 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and it does implement all the comands < 1224050203 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Ex-Chat" < 1224052187 0 :oklocod!n=nnscript@sparkgw.utu.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1224052524 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1224054256 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1224054351 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@j-94.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1224055351 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1224057599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1224057600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1224058123 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1224058125 0 :oklopol!n=nnscript@sparkgw.utu.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1224058195 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :orrorrorrorrorrorrorrorrorrorro < 1224058271 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :orrorrorrorrorrorrorrorrorro < 1224059265 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rofr < 1224059383 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1224061626 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | < 1224063157 0 :oklocod!n=nnscript@sparkgw.utu.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1224063513 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was gonna ask what 01101001100101101001011001101001... is, but realized there's a more trivial way to produce it, that everyone knows already. < 1224063551 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Morse-Thue Morse-Thue Morse-Thue Morse-Thue Morse-Thue Morse-Thue < 1224063566 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat? < 1224063579 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the Morse-Thue sequence < 1224063586 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know that one < 1224063589 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1224063592 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess i do :P < 1224063599 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why the name? < 1224063645 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm apparently wp and mathworld switch the words < 1224063658 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, can you guess where i bumped into that? the course is called microprocessors < 1224063692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thue-Morse_sequence#History < 1224063698 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had a program in my error because i initially thought that sequence was 01010101010... before i started thinking < 1224063709 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was one of my advisor's favorite examples < 1224063745 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's nothing about uses there < 1224063760 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you asked why the name < 1224063765 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1224063772 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :answer to my earlier question, right < 1224063810 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glad i am now in the long list of mathematicians to discover that. < 1224063819 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye < 1224063826 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, guess the use! :D < 1224063876 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(them microprocessors contain an bites...) < 1224063952 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this parity of bits connected? < 1224063972 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ya < 1224063977 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in binary < 1224063995 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to inc, we prepend a 1, and then do everything we've done sofar < 1224064010 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prepending a 1 will do nothing but swap all 1's and 0's < 1224064026 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means < 1224064028 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1224064032 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Thue-MorseSequence.html has that as the second way to generate the sequence in Mathematica (of 6) < 1224064044 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*prepending a 1 will do nothing but complement all parities < 1224064064 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we always duplicate what we have, but complemented < 1224064070 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the first is the one that connected it with my PhD work) < 1224064154 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm probably not yet old enough to try reading that, btw? < 1224064172 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*old enough yet) < 1224064530 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my magimatical powers aren't that developed yet < 1224064536 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathemagical would be better < 1224065117 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1224067422 0 :Corun!n=Corun@94-192-102-5.zone6.bethere.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1224069312 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1224070158 0 :Corun!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1224071495 0 :moozilla!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1224071591 0 :moozilla!n=moozilla@207-118-30-52.dyn.centurytel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1224071958 0 :slereah!n=butt@ANantes-252-1-39-168.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1224073520 0 :Slereah_!n=butt@ANantes-252-1-39-168.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1224073520 0 :slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1224074391 0 :slereah!n=butt@ANantes-252-1-39-168.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1224074400 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1224074574 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1224074575 0 :SimonRC_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1224074576 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1224074576 0 :slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1224074577 0 :ENKI-][!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1224074577 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1224074578 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1224074578 0 :cmeme!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1224074623 0 :slereah!n=butt@ANantes-252-1-39-168.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1224074623 0 :ENKI-][!n=weechat@c-71-234-190-248.hsd1.ct.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1224074623 0 :GregorR!n=gregor@65.183.185.132 JOIN :#esoteric < 1224074623 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1224074623 0 :lifthrasiir!n=lifthras@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1224074623 0 :cmeme!n=cmeme@boa.b9.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1224074623 0 :SimonRC_!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1224074623 0 :mtve!n=mtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1224075644 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1224075644 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1224075644 0 :thutubot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1224075646 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1224075646 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1224075647 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1224075690 0 :psygnisfive!n=psygnisf@c-71-57-164-119.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1224075690 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@cpc3-stkn2-0-0-cust106.midd.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1224075690 0 :ehird!n=ehird@eso-std.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1224075690 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r01jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1224075690 0 :thutubot!n=thutubot@eso-std.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1224075690 0 :comex!n=comex@teklinks.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1224075947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1224076876 0 :Mony!n=AssHole@AToulouse-258-1-104-60.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1224077978 0 :OverNord!n=OverNord@host-091-097-122-216.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1224078026 0 :OverNord!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1224078133 0 :Slereah_!n=butt@ANantes-252-1-39-168.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1224078133 0 :slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1224078382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just had an awful idea < 1224078412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is Scheme. There is also XML Schema. So why not also XML Scheme? It is just a one letter difference. < 1224078433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think it may even be possible in theory, though horrible < 1224078682 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's SXML -- XML data as S-expressions. < 1224078690 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Less horrible. < 1224078974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's not a very interesting idea. < 1224078978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it's a trivial one. < 1224078989 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish your "awful ideas" were more awful :| < 1224078999 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, been considered before. < 1224079021 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This excellent article draws the parallel to xml in the introduction: http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html < 1224079164 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, GCC-XML. < 1224079173 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1224079212 0 :ENKI-][!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1224079228 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You'll like this - < 1224079236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC-XML was made by the same people as your beloved CMake. < 1224079239 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where's your god now?! < 1224079310 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, it's only a "C++ to XML so that GCC frontend can be used for parsing easier" tool, not a "XML syntax for C++ for GCC input" one. The latter would be more awful. < 1224079595 0 :ENKI-][!n=weechat@c-71-234-190-248.hsd1.ct.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1224080027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I like some stuff you done, but not everything? Your point? < 1224080039 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1224080046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : GCC-XML was made by the same people as your beloved CMake. < 1224080046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Where's your god now?! < 1224080050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was in response to that < 1224080056 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was being silly. < 1224080070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and I never claimed cmake was perfect < 1224080078 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was being silly. < 1224080080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just less terrible than autotools < 1224080082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ok :) < 1224080088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay second time lucky < 1224080096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1224080166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well I read it first time, but changing that would mean the irc-line pipeline would have to be discarded. Somewhat like the Pentium 4 pipeline ;P < 1224080204 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah you're obsolete < 1224080238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1224080259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no a pentium 4 would have a pipeline of 200 lines or so < 1224080263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just have 1-2 < 1224081891 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latest pentium 4 models had a 31-stage pipeline < 1224081904 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Core has around 15 < 1224082080 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb ais523 < 1224083227 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | If A and B are either registers, either given integers and C is register, the < 1224084082 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh oh, they're making the Pandoras with LEGOs! http://www.openpandora.de/images/padtop.jpg < 1224084137 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you mean LEGO(TM) bricks < 1224084138 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1224084147 0 :Slereah_!n=butt@ANantes-252-1-39-168.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1224084667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Uh oh, they're making the Pandoras with LEGOs! http://www.openpandora.de/images/padtop.jpg <--? < 1224084686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What has that image got to do with Greek mythology? Or was it Roman? < 1224084713 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Pandora is a (poorly-named) open source game system. < 1224084730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I can't read that German site < 1224084742 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only the image is relevant X_X < 1224084746 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :openpandora.org for English < 1224084783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it looks like a lego base plate but with an unusual shape < 1224084802 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that was the joke :P < 1224084804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR, however notice the base of the "studs" are slightly tilted? < 1224084818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect it wouldn't actually fit with real lego due to that < 1224084824 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: if AnMaster ever bugs you about a joke, don't ever reply x_x < 1224084827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if the studs are the right size otherwise < 1224084834 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I should've remembered that :P < 1224084857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well considering I had no clue what Pandora was in this context, how should I know it was a joke? < 1224084866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for all I know it could have been some lego related product < 1224084872 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Touché. < 1224084880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oh no they're making the mythological character ut of LEGOs!" < 1224084886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not "oh no" < 1224084886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Occam's Razor applies here. < 1224084889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and read what I said < 1224084894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : What has that image got to do with Greek mythology? Or was it Roman? < 1224084901 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if anybody looked up the mythological figure Pandora before naming this game system :P < 1224084907 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh look, I just broke my own rule. < 1224084926 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Cool, my new Pandora arrived. Time to open it! Haw haw haw, look, all the evil in the universe just came out of my new game system." < 1224084932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, if it had been some lego model looking like mythology related then sure it would have made sense < 1224084940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I suspect that was step 1 of the building instruction < 1224084942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1224084945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... XD < 1224084979 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So ehird, how's life in $YOUR_COUNTRY_OF_RESIDENCE. How's $YOUR_EMPLOYER_OR_UNIVERSITY treating you? < 1224084985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR, I have never heard of a game system called pandora :P < 1224085001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR, err, he is too young for either of those < 1224085002 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: Good! And the second variable is null. :-P < 1224085025 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"UNIVERSITY" is taken to mean any educational institution at any level. < 1224085036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I reject your semantics and substitute my own. < 1224085043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"UNIVERSITY" means "a fine summer's day" < 1224085046 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In which case, very nicely! < 1224085051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm ehird, what school level are you in now? I don't know the English school system very well < 1224085053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though it is not a fine summer's day < 1224085066 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I reject your parody of Adam Savage and substitute my own. < 1224085066 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't know the Swedish system, so beats me :D < 1224085069 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyhoo. < 1224085079 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: D: < 1224085085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what is it called in English then? Primary school? Or is that for younger? < 1224085100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got no clue how the English school system works as I said :P < 1224085105 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Depends which Swedish level you are talking about :P < 1224085106 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh look < 1224085109 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Melab ha made more edits! < 1224085125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see if they're any good < 1224085128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I was wondering what the English name for it was ehird < 1224085139 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: for -what- < 1224085179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the school "level" or whatever you are in. Like "university" "high school" or such < 1224085190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what the word for the collection of those are < 1224085198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/are/is/ < 1224085200 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_Kingdom < 1224085201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1224085208 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or rather http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_England < 1224085208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, thanks < 1224085275 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: (the bottom line in the graph thingy there, 3 tier system) < 1224085279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well from what I know of you and from what that page says, it would be "secondary school"? < 1224085298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1224085322 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I'd never heard of the 3-tier system and I live in England < 1224085336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so "upper school"? < 1224085350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I haven't actually heard it being called "upper school" so I can't say for certain. < 1224085357 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I imagine so. < 1224085360 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: Weird < 1224085360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would you call it? < 1224085375 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If it's the same thing as it looks like on that graph, I'd call it high school. < 1224085381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1224085382 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every school I've seen up north has been the second kind. < 1224085396 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: here in England we have primary school, secondary school, college (which is sometimes part of secondary school), and sometimes university < 1224085400 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I live up north too. < 1224085409 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Not in the 3-tier system. < 1224085432 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't ever seen a non-3-tier school, there was some hullabaloo about people complaining about switching schools to 3-tier a few years ago. < 1224085442 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, that's confusing. < 1224085448 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :College is a separate level from University? < 1224085454 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: 6th form college < 1224085454 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I live in BIZZARO BRITAIN < 1224085460 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes < 1224085462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: That's always bemused me too < 1224085463 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's when you do A levels < 1224085472 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_oldest_university_in_England_debate < 1224085474 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :best page title EVER < 1224085480 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh... < 1224085482 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A University is just a collection of Colleges in the US :P < 1224085502 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this reminds me of the edit war about whether to link to http://thethirdbestwebsiteintheuniverse.com or http://the3rdbestwebsiteintheuniverse.com < 1224085523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well in Sweden we have grundskola then gymnasie, then university. Grundskolan (Adding an n here means same as "the" in English) is usually divided in three stages, lower, middle, upper. Usually lower and middle stages are co-located at the same school, and the upper stage is often located separately < 1224085554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why that is so, maybe because they start teaching chemistry and physics in the upper stage ;) < 1224085564 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably grundskola is Swedish for "grunge school" and gymnasie is Swedish for "gymnasium" < 1224085569 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, there's also nursery before primary school, but that's optional and many children never go to nursery < 1224085589 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :college is optional too, but you're generally considered stupid if you fail to go there (unlike university, where many people never go) < 1224085594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I went to nursery! < 1224085600 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so did I, as it happens < 1224085606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR, gymnasium and gymnasie are both valid spellings of the same word, meaning the same. Just a case of language changing over time I think < 1224085607 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: this reminds me of the edit war about whether to link to http://thethirdbestwebsiteintheuniverse.com or http://the3rdbestwebsiteintheuniverse.com < 1224085608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1224085615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR, and "gymnasie" is like high school < 1224085623 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I went to the US equivalent of nursery school (preschool) < 1224085635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grundskolan is like "basic school", literally translated < 1224085636 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you get edit wars about all sorts of silly things < 1224085636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, grunge school is an awesome name < 1224085640 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to GRUNGE SCHOOOOOOOL < 1224085641 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what article < 1224085643 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=WP:LAME is one of my favourite humor pages < 1224085695 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Best_Page_in_the_Universe < 1224085701 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, I found it quickly < 1224085704 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the copy-and-paste was weird < 1224085709 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it kept higlighting backwards for some reason < 1224085725 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I meant page not website < 1224085734 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although presumably the URLs I gave are also taken by now... < 1224086370 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-84.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1224086663 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION starts one of eir assignments for University < 1224086666 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*their < 1224086675 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm amused, because it uses Booleans with 9 different possible values < 1224086686 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none of which are FILE_NOT_FOUND, unfortunately < 1224087287 0 :oklocod!n=nnscript@a91-153-123-88.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1224088251 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ayo < 1224088280 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi psygnisfive < 1224088286 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :howsit goin guys < 1224088295 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slowly and tiredly < 1224088299 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1224088310 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conversing with yourself can be like that, i imagine < 1224088327 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I'm conversing with other people elsewhere < 1224088333 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not here! < 1224088334 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1224088442 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mind monologuing really < 1224088446 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as #esoteric has lots of logreaderes < 1224088449 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*logreaders < 1224088513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, "Booleans with 9 different possible values"? < 1224088518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have time telling more? < 1224088519 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1224088523 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I think so < 1224088527 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in one of the IEEE standards < 1224088532 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to represent real physical booleans < 1224088536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1224088539 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are normally 0 or 1 < 1224088540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a joke right? < 1224088546 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but can take on all sorts of other values in weird cases < 1224088549 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not a joke at all < 1224088550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are you actually serious? < 1224088552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1224088560 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inside a computer, wires are normally at 0V or 5V for 0 or 1 < 1224088565 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are other possibilities < 1224088573 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, a wire might be held at 0V via a resistor < 1224088577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, aren't boolans *defined* as being either true/false, with implementation defined values for true and false? < 1224088585 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: depends on the language < 1224088594 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're simulating hardware, they're defined to have 9 possible values < 1224088598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1224088598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1224088603 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even C has 3 values for booleans, really < 1224088606 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true/false/uninitialised < 1224088609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1224088622 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 9 possible values includes 3 sorts of uninitialised < 1224088624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that only applies to non-static variables < 1224088628 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ok < 1224088632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc static variables are initialised to 0 < 1224088634 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still, do you see what I'm getting at < 1224088637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *think* it is in the standard < 1224088639 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and yes, they are) < 1224088640 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, you are all probably experts in this field: I have this plate made out of "compound marble" (a sort of marble/plastic composite material, apparently) and I need two circular holes in it (with diameters of 34 and 45 mm). Where can I find a company (in Finland, preferrably Espoo) that can make me such holes? < 1224088645 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or NULL for pointers) < 1224088655 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@j-240.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1224088656 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but 0 in a pointer context _is_ NULL) < 1224088661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that is only because NULL is defined to be 0 < 1224088667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same as false happens to be < 1224088669 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, no it isn't < 1224088674 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NULL can have a non-zero value < 1224088685 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a literal constant integer 0 gets converted to NULL when casted to a pointer, though < 1224088691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah yes < 1224088692 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike a non-constant integer with the value 0 < 1224088699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm right < 1224088723 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, there's no reason why a C interp couldn't assign an "uninitialised" value to variables before they were initialised < 1224088724 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not quite sure you can have the macro 'NULL' defined to a nonzero value. < 1224088727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway yeah true/false are defined differently in different languages. Bash inverts it for example, 0 is true, non-zero is false < 1224088728 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and error when they encountered it < 1224088737 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: no, you can't, only (0) or ((void*)0) < 1224088741 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but (int)NULL can be nonzero < 1224088763 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, VHDL has 9 possible values of std_logic_bits (which are effectively booleans) < 1224088767 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 and 1 < 1224088777 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then weak 0 and weak 1 which are like 0 and 1 except if there's a short circuit < 1224088787 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(called L and H) < 1224088789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and at least some languages seems to use special types, such as scheme (#t, #f) erlang (the atoms: true, false) < 1224088798 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there's X, which means you have a short circuit that actually catches fire < 1224088807 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :W which means you've got a value somewhere between 0 and 1 < 1224088816 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :U for uninitialised < 1224088820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway couldn't you define +6V to be true? or whatever < 1224088823 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- for if you explicitly don't care < 1224088832 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Z for a wire which isn't connected at all < 1224088834 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1224088863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and +6.5V, +7V, and so on. So there are an infinite number of "true" < 1224088875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on the current circuit < 1224088878 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1224088885 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice 0V and 5V are most commonly used < 1224088894 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except RS-232 uses -12V and +12V because it's weird < 1224088903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no idea, but maybe you want to use less in a low power application? < 1224088913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't know if that would make sense < 1224088920 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, probably, I suspect inside processors they only use millivolts < 1224088925 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is rather beside the point, though < 1224088939 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as 01LHXWU-Z logic works fine no matter what voltages you use < 1224088953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also what was that about fire? < 1224088965 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you connect 0 to 1 directly in simulation, you get X < 1224088971 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you try it in real life something normally catches fire < 1224088975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1224088980 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you're shorting out the power supply < 1224088987 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Usually something just turns off. < 1224088992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless there is a fuse? < 1224089000 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, fuses are designed to catch fire first < 1224089005 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to save the rest of the circuit < 1224089021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, err aren't some like fuses you just press a button to re-arm? < 1224089023 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: clearly you work with much higher-grade power supplies than I normally do... < 1224089031 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: those are circuit breakers, yes < 1224089035 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're fuse-like but resettable < 1224089038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah that is the English word < 1224089040 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and don't need to catch fire to work < 1224089049 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're a lot more expensive than fuses, though < 1224089056 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so normally they're only used for buildings < 1224089062 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than individual plugs < 1224089097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think I have seen it used for individual plugs... in a physics classroom :D < 1224089107 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I wouldn't blame them for doing it there < 1224089114 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1224089115 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was in a physics classroom :( < 1224089125 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_: why the :(? < 1224089126 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We did bitwise operation this morning, for some reason < 1224089131 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't really do electronics, but I think computer power supplies quite often manage to turn off instead of catching fire if there's a short somewhere. < 1224089133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1224089145 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: sometimes, often the chip in question burns out first < 1224089149 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least gets hot < 1224089165 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after a while as an electronic engineer, you can detect short circuits by temperature < 1224089172 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if it burns your hand, there's a short circuit...) < 1224089173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get hot? Then what is the point of the fan in the power supply? < 1224089179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hotter even than that < 1224089192 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modern computers get hot even without short circuits < 1224089198 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but short circuits make them still hotter < 1224089213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, touching a pentium 4 would burn your hand, even if there wasn't a short circuit < 1224089234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seen a p4 run fine at 60 C or so < 1224089240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shudder* < 1224089257 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to be careful at those sort of temperatures < 1224089265 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as most hard drives start forgetting data at about 52 degrees C < 1224089268 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The on-chip temperature thing on this Athlon X2 says it's running at 35 degrees (core 0) / 30 degrees (core 1). < 1224089272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my current cpu, a sempron, only reach above 40 C on very hot days, currently it is 32 C < 1224089309 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw: AnMaster: ehird: are you happy with how you're credited in the current C-INTERCAL README? < 1224089315 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/README/NEWS/ < 1224089317 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how am i credite < 1224089317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well the case had a fan in the front iirc on that computer, and the hardrives where close to that, also one fan in the back, then one on the CPU, then one in the PSU < 1224089319 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d < 1224089326 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: with your real name < 1224089332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I ask same question as ehird, and for what? < 1224089333 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that's fine < 1224089342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although yeah < 1224089344 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: for finding bugs < 1224089344 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me link you to it < 1224089344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what for ;-) < 1224089349 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also finding bugs < 1224089354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, fine with real name, but don't include any email < 1224089362 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1224089370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can include my email if you wanted but i don't have a permanent one atm < 1224089370 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no email, don't worry < 1224089374 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/NEWS < 1224089383 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i'm likely going to start publicizing my @ehird.net one once I get that < 1224089385 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Re INTERCAL, the Wikipedia article -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTERCAL -- has broken links for references #2 and #5. < 1224089395 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone who regularly edits that thing might fix them. < 1224089408 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: good to know, I may fix them at some point < 1224089408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, who reported the -F issue? < 1224089412 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are both available on code.eso-std.org < 1224089414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is under "Bugs reported by Elliott Hird" < 1224089415 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just links to the manual < 1224089422 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ehird did first < 1224089424 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well < 1224089424 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I fixed it < 1224089425 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see < 1224089429 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's under "bugs reported by elliott hird" < 1224089429 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it broke again and you reported it the second time < 1224089431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure I reported it, and you didn't say anything about it back then < 1224089433 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you think you could make a guess :D < 1224089435 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I haven't fixed the new bug yet < 1224089439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah right < 1224089450 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and unfixed bugs aren't in the changelog < 1224089542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is the second entry about really? < 1224089554 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 64-bit things? < 1224089557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1224089558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :third < 1224089559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1224089572 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's about varargs vs. stdarg < 1224089578 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the old method of detecting which one to use was broken < 1224089585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, What did I report it as? < 1224089589 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and both you and ehird noticed when trying to compile on architectures that didn't have varargs.h < 1224089598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1224089604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you reported it as a compile failure, and I figured the bug from the error messages < 1224089610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember it, but ok. I don't have good memory for such stuff < 1224089631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sounds vaguely familiar now... < 1224089639 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was ages ago < 1224089644 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just after the last release, in April or so < 1224089651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but wouldn't it just be an autoconf check for the headers? < 1224089655 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is now < 1224089656 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't hten < 1224089658 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*then < 1224089668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err how was it done then? < 1224089677 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking for defines in the header files it included < 1224089687 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, the ones that the standards say should be there < 1224089689 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so cfunge-style < 1224089698 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only I think they either checked the wrong one, or it was slightly nonstandard < 1224089707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well varargs wouldn't exist, so that would error, but if varargs existed and stdargs didn't, then including that would error. < 1224089719 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it checked some other header file for the define < 1224089722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't remember it being defined elsewhere? < 1224089723 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably stdio.g < 1224089725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1224089725 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*stdio.h < 1224089730 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it needs to do varargs for printf < 1224089758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the va* functions would only be called in the printf function, not needed for the prototype in the header file < 1224089765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can't see how that would work either :P < 1224089768 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... < 1224089779 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :printf needs to know whether to put a ... in the prototype or not < 1224089779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ? < 1224089795 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it needs to include the headers that define the constants that specify whether to use varargs or stdarg < 1224089803 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :varargs didn't use the ... syntax < 1224089821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, um, I never actually seen varargs syntax in the wild. < 1224089826 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have < 1224089832 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's prototypeless < 1224089837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/include/varargs.h seems to have one entry: < 1224089840 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the varargs definition for stdio < 1224089841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#error "GCC no longer implements ." < 1224089841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#error "Revise your code to use ." < 1224089843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two < 1224089850 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*printf < 1224089853 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is int printf() < 1224089865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then all sorts of magic is used at printf's end to get the argument list < 1224089874 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :under stdarg.h, of course, it's int printf(char* format, ...) < 1224089875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/include/gentoo-multilib/amd64/stdio.h:extern int printf (__const char *__restrict __format, ...); < 1224089876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1224089880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever you say :P < 1224089888 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops, forgot the restrict and const < 1224089889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems hard coded to me < 1224089899 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that architecture doesn't support varargs.h < 1224089905 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why C-INTERCAL's old check failed < 1224089913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/include/gentoo-multilib/x86/stdio.h:extern int printf (__const char *__restrict __format, ...); < 1224089917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still seems hard coded? < 1224089922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION checks on some other OS < 1224089922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, exactly < 1224089929 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how you code it under stdarg.h < 1224089937 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is right, as varargs.h no longer exists < 1224089942 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the header files don't have to support it < 1224089942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int printf(const char * __restrict, ...); < 1224089944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is freebsd < 1224089951 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they supported both varargs and stdarg, they'd need two prototypes < 1224089955 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one for each mechanism < 1224089956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freebsd 6.3 to be exact < 1224089964 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody does nowadays though < 1224089968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think varargs was dropped years ago < 1224089971 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1224089974 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C-INTERCAL is years old though < 1224089982 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it predates stdarg.h... < 1224089991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it seems not even gcc 3.x support varargs? < 1224089999 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not < 1224090001 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a mess < 1224090009 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and actually, it's to do with the headers < 1224090011 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the compiler < 1224090012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I consider stdargs quite a mess too < 1224090020 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as all arguments are passed on the stack < 1224090023 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which they used to be < 1224090040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well they usually are for variable argument count functions < 1224090054 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1224090056 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :under stdargs.h < 1224090062 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has the ... in the prototype < 1224090065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1224090067 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the compiler knows to do that < 1224090077 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :under varargs, the prototype was the same for varargs and non-varargs functions < 1224090082 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and everything was passed on the stack < 1224090092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err one question though < 1224090102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) C89 added stdargs.h < 1224090106 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1224090115 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, C-INTERCAL was pre-C89 originally < 1224090118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2) C89 added prototypes too didn't it? At least K&R C didn't have it < 1224090123 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes < 1224090123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1224090127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" under varargs, the prototype was the same for varargs and non-varargs functions" < 1224090128 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stdargs.h needs prototypes to work < 1224090129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my question < 1224090131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What prototypes? < 1224090133 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there wasn't a prototype < 1224090138 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is what I meant by it being the same < 1224090152 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have said the declaration was the same < 1224090157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes NULL = NULL I guess < 1224090160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==* < 1224090162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1224090263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you should know by now I tend to notice such issues with wording ;P) < 1224090396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, "1. Fixed a typo in the perpet.c version of the help information." < 1224090396 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... speaking of C-INTERCAL bugs, is it still possible to write DO ;1 <- ;2 and it will generate (invalid) C? < 1224090400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember that < 1224090438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also that reminds me of another bug I reported, that c-intercal generated code with linking errors when trying to run a hello world CLC-INTERCAL program < 1224090441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb ais523 < 1224090449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea if that is fixed < 1224090449 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I reported that to esr around 2005/2006, but it doesn't look at first glance as though later versions fixed it) < 1224090470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you were away? < 1224090484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very well I suggest some log-reading :) < 1224090494 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He was away for... a few minutes. < 1224090498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1224090499 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His last message was at 17:02. < 1224090501 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is now 17:08. < 1224090506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* [ais523] idle 00:00:54, signon: Tue Oct 14 22:17:17 < 1224090508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1224090517 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: link errors? < 1224090517 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that shouldn't happen < 1224090517 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, internet connection failed < 1224090517 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a bouncer now to avoid quitspamming channels I'm in when that happens < 1224090532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and yes I remember talking to you about it and you weren't sure how to fix it < 1224090545 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he had no link errors < 1224090545 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1224090556 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just said 'wb ais523' when he re-bouncer-connected < 1224090559 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: do you want to try again? < 1224090564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, this one iirc: http://intercal.freeshell.org/examples/hello.i < 1224090567 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the relevant part of the code is really different now from what it used to be < 1224090570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1224090573 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link errors in cintercal < 1224090573 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1224090588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no as in link errors when compiling/linking generated program < 1224090597 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1224090603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you meant on irc < 1224090661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Backing up ./configure(-darcs-backup0) < 1224090661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have conflicts in the following files: < 1224090661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./configure < 1224090662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blergh < 1224090701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you revert a whole file ais523 in darcs? < 1224090709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darcs revert configure just locks up < 1224090719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at: < 1224090721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shall I revert this change? (1/681) [ynWsfvpxdaqjk], or ? for help: a < 1224090735 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it would do, probably < 1224090738 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given the nature of configure < 1224090747 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the easiest way is to copy it from _darcs/pristine < 1224090752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah ok < 1224090776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also it will just be re-generated with newer autotools again < 1224090787 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes, probably < 1224090790 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a problem? < 1224090800 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what's meant to happen... < 1224090823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, not really, unless you change it making darcs pull result in conflicts ;P < 1224090844 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in theory you shouldn't store the configure file in the repo at all, for that sort of reason < 1224090845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, most other project leaves configure and other generated files out of repo, having users generate it < 1224090849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1224090853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I assume you got some reason < 1224090856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe related to DOS < 1224090858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows < 1224090863 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that people can download the repo and it works, as it happens < 1224090870 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without having the maintainer tools available < 1224090874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well configure would be generated for release tarballs < 1224090878 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it would be < 1224090890 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I try to keep the repo and release tarballs in sync < 1224090893 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, containing the same files < 1224090895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do you think most users of the darcs version will lack autotools? < 1224090900 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea < 1224090905 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did, for ages < 1224090907 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it seems plausible < 1224090927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that would have been quite a problem for a *maintainer* < 1224090936 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd be surprised < 1224090943 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I edited the configure script with search-and-replace < 1224090948 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and kept in in sync with config.in < 1224090953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're trying to infuriate AnMaster < 1224090957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't think of a better way to do it < 1224090958 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kudos < 1224090962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well first you have to remove a few PLEASE from that hello.i it seems < 1224090964 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'm not, I'm just telling the truth < 1224090973 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ... which is possibly the best way :D < 1224090976 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, CLC-INTERCAL and C-INTERCAL define comment lines differently < 1224090991 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to put DO in front of every line in hello.i for C-INTERCAL to recognise it < 1224090992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, should I remove " PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE (PRETTY PLEASE)" maybe? < 1224091003 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, every ERROR: line < 1224091010 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a difference in handling between the two langs < 1224091025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just removed the PLEASE PLEASE... < 1224091028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./ick hello.i < 1224091028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/tmp/cczl1GlE.o: In function `ick_og9b59730': < 1224091028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello.c:(.text+0x1ce): undefined reference to `ick_or0' < 1224091029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1224091030 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in CLC-INTERCAL, DO COME FROM .1 ERROR: This should never be reached is two statements < 1224091035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that was the error < 1224091037 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C-INTERCAL, it's one statement < 1224091039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm 100% sure I reported it before < 1224091040 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, and ok < 1224091044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you said it was hard to fix < 1224091044 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, you did < 1224091048 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what happened to that? < 1224091053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, do you have a bugzilla? < 1224091054 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means the typecaster's got lost somewhere < 1224091055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1224091067 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never, ever use bugzillas < 1224091075 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?ordering=normal;archive=both;src=intercal;repeatmerged=1 < 1224091077 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a bugzilla < 1224091079 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but similar < 1224091083 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's Debian's < 1224091084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1224091084 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I read it < 1224091094 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bug reporting is a form where you enter your problem as plaintext, and it gives you a URL to track people's comments < 1224091099 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, if you use it atm Debian will go mad < 1224091100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think launchpad may have one too? < 1224091104 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the -developers- can handle stuff like priorities < 1224091108 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably, but that's for Ubuntu only < 1224091111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yeah < 1224091118 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they've been really bad at forwarding bugs to anyone < 1224091125 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I reported a typo in the man page and Debian never saw it < 1224091131 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I've just been reporting directly to Debian recently < 1224091135 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: worse than gentoo? < 1224091140 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1224091143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : probably, but that's for Ubuntu only <-- huh? < 1224091144 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presently they're at 0% < 1224091151 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my experience < 1224091162 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's hard for Gentoo to be worse than that < 1224091163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1224091164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong one < 1224091168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : however, if you use it atm Debian will go mad < 1224091171 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: gentoo's at -1% - they make major modifications and then don't tell people < 1224091172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn scrolling window < 1224091176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it scrolled while I selected! < 1224091179 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the original devs get bugs < 1224091181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to gentoo changes < 1224091183 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because their C-INTERCAL maintainer resigned from that < 1224091191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably for time reasons or whatever, I don't know < 1224091191 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a lot of devs just say 'don't report problems on gentoo' < 1224091193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1224091194 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and nobody took it up atm < 1224091200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what do you mean gentoo at -1%? < 1224091207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can we *PLEASE AVOID A FLAMEWAR* < 1224091224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :distro choice is subjective anyway < 1224091232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some prefer source based, other want binary based < 1224091234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1224091242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no reason to flame about it < 1224091253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers a flame war about having a flame war < 1224091255 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I mean is, if you report a bug against C-INTERCAL in Debian atm, the core Debian developers have to try to fix it < 1224091262 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're busy with other things < 1224091271 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :last time it happened I saved them by sending an upstream patch < 1224091284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hah < 1224091347 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that was the configure failing in dash bug) < 1224091361 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=485066 < 1224091428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1224091452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why on earth does anyone care about dash? < 1224091472 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's smaller than bash < 1224091480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the () version would be valid according to POSIX iirc < 1224091483 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is at least one extreme disk-space optimiser in Debian < 1224091486 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, I agree < 1224091496 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the changelog is wrong, it was a dash-only bug < 1224091500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it would declare an array < 1224091500 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than a bashism < 1224091522 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but dash is the default /bin/sh on Debian < 1224091524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, didn't you report that as a bug in the changelog? < 1224091533 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, couldn't be bothered < 1224091536 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not important enough < 1224091542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you should IMO just to mess with them < 1224091542 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to report a slight mistake in someone else's changelog < 1224091554 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I want to stay on good terms with them, though... < 1224091589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think it is spreading false and negative information about POSIX shell syntax as wekk as being rather arrogant < 1224091592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1224091600 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would make such a great flame war... < 1224091601 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no < 1224091611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and yes it would, but no I wouldn't take part in it < 1224091620 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, neither would I < 1224091630 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're effectively having a flame war by hypotheticals atm, though < 1224091642 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hey, if someone flamed me by saying X, I'd flame them back by saying Y..." < 1224091645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but I would still contact them about it, as they are clearly misinformed ;P < 1224091678 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably serves me right for writing funky syntax in something that is irrelevant anyway < 1224091685 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, that code isn't even /in/ C-INTERCAL atm < 1224091698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yeah, I wouldn't declare an array there either < 1224091768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(basically since I coded so much bash I would spot it as an array from, maybe not a mile, but maximum reading distance, depending on font, size of text, light level, and so on) < 1224091867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway I'm pretty sure you said, that http://intercal.freeshell.org/examples/hello.i (with corrected please level) should still not generate that linking error, right? < 1224091918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also it is possible to write programs that work on bot C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL? < 1224091936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, that hello world < 1224091998 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1224092002 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry about that < 1224092006 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last I saw was a relatively funny joke from AnMaster about array syntax and the distance at which e could read it < 1224092018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523, anyway I'm pretty sure you said, that http://intercal.freeshell.org/examples/hello.i (with corrected please level) should still not generate that linking error, right? < 1224092018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523, also it is possible to write programs that work on bot C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL? < 1224092018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : for example, that hello world < 1224092021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was all since then < 1224092039 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty easy to write a C-INTERCAL/CLC-INTERCAL polyglot < 1224092050 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that hello world is full of CLC-INTERCAL-specific features < 1224092060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm what about throwing J-INTERCAL into that mix too? < 1224092067 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doesn't work on C-INTERCAL even with syntax corrected and in CLC-INTERCAL emulation mode < 1224092077 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: still possible, but you'd be restricted to INTERCAL-72 features and COME FROM < 1224092083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1224092087 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have to steer away from some thorny parts < 1224092110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, does that include the needed output for hello world? < 1224092111 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, flow control would be impossible on CLC-INTERCAL's default settings, as INTERCAL-72 flow control is deprecated in CLC-INTERCAL < 1224092119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1224092127 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: actually hello.i doesn't output anything < 1224092134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1224092138 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it errors if its input isn't "Hello, world!" < 1224092138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have clc around < 1224092168 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and CLC-INTERCAL does text I/O differently from J-INTERCAL and C-INTERCAL < 1224092188 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy to write a 4-way polyglot between INTERCAL-72, C-INTERCAL, J-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL's C-INTERCAL emulation mode, though < 1224092190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1224092204 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which reminds me, I need to send Claudio some patches to improve that emulation mode at some point < 1224092232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you got the local changes already? < 1224092239 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of < 1224092240 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1224092243 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1224092245 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind-of hard to explain < 1224092251 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.231 JOIN :#esoteric < 1224092304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1224092313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ok < 1224092329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, still shouldn't it error out before linking time? < 1224092336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c-intercal on that hello world I meant < 1224092373 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it should be a runtime error < 1224092378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ok that then < 1224092384 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a genuine error you've identified there < 1224092390 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it'll be a pain to track down < 1224092397 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to figure out wtf the type-caster is doing < 1224092436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I seem to recall you said it was something with invalid code in comments needing to be around in case they were ever restored < 1224092438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something such < 1224092448 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is to do with that < 1224092454 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in particular, it's something that looks like an expression < 1224092461 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet doesn't type properly, and the typecaster didn't notice < 1224092467 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the typecaster not noticing that is the bug here < 1224092472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, got any trace support then? < 1224092480 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for the typecaster, probably I should < 1224092481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dumping parse tree or whatever < 1224092494 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can dump parse tree, but annoyingly the dump doesn't list data types < 1224092511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, does that information exist at the time of the dump? < 1224092513 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I gave up trying to read C-INTERCAL parse tree dumps years ago < 1224092515 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, it doesn't < 1224092519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1224092520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1224092522 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type inference is done later < 1224092534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why did you give up+ < 1224092535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1224092545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't OIL operate on those trees anyway I thought? < 1224092546 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they're unreadable < 1224092554 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OIL is a readable version of the same thing < 1224092571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would dumping it to oil be impossible? < 1224092573 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a command to translate an expression parse tree into OIL < 1224092578 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't contain data types either < 1224092584 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... maybe I should fix it so it does < 1224092659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm a good idea for a name for a tool related to OIL would be CO2 or something such < 1224092680 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1224092692 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, I'm working on a new INTERCAL-related tool atm < 1224092715 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called ickopter, and it's a generic wrapper script that can convert command-line options from any INTERCAL compiler I know of to any other < 1224092715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, considering what cars emit when they console certain parts of the raw oil < 1224092720 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1224092725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after those part have been separated < 1224092739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I thought that would be a pretty clear connection? < 1224092747 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it can work out the options from the file extension (like CLC-INTERCAL does), or from the modification time (which nothing does atm but something ought to) < 1224092755 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not all that obvious, really < 1224092832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm, the environment and global warming have been probably been the topic that have grown most in media during the last 1-2 years or so < 1224092835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least in Sweden < 1224092852 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even the oil=petrol connection isn't really obvious to someone British < 1224092858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, err why not? < 1224092862 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then, you have to consider what happens when you set it on fire < 1224092865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: somehow i think that utility needs a "hell" in front < 1224092868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :raw oil is used to make petrol < 1224092870 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oil is a raw material for petrols < 1224092879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes exactly < 1224092882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how isn't that clear? < 1224092882 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't make them obviously connected < 1224092887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm < 1224092892 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be like calling a program to operate on a tree structure PENCIL < 1224092904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, makes perfect sense :) < 1224092913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :took about 3 seconds or so < 1224092926 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about as convoluted as Cockney rhyming slang, which generally has to be explained for people to understand it < 1224092952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, of course wooden pencils are made from wood < 1224092964 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I was referring to the paper on which the pencils wrote < 1224092968 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is made from trees < 1224092982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah ok, both ways work < 1224092987 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is beautifully convoluted < 1224092989 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's a double-pun < 1224092993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have in front of me two pencils < 1224092995 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such a pity that both puns are really bad < 1224092996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is a mechanical one < 1224093008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other is a traditional wood-encased one < 1224093016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you use a pencil sharpener for < 1224093045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway I don't think the connection is very far fetched at all < 1224093055 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but it's still ridiculous < 1224093065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I got a scheme pun for whenever scheme is on the topic, that will even make oerjan's puns seem good < 1224093086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however I won't tell what it is until I find some place to fit it in the discussion :P < 1224093090 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan's puns are good < 1224093100 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: so you're plotting to scheme? < 1224093100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well this is kind of good and horrible at the same time < 1224093106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, not that one < 1224093110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that was good too :) < 1224093146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn, the pun would have fitted perfectly as a response to oerjan < 1224093148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh werll < 1224093148 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I think Guile was named for that pun too < 1224093149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well* < 1224093168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waits for the next chanse < 1224093170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chance* < 1224093248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does common lisp use for true and false btw? I think I heard mentioned that false was the empty list/NIL? < 1224093250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or? < 1224093258 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T and NIL < 1224093265 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t and nil < 1224093269 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in lowercase IIRC < 1224093273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1224093284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it case sensitive? < 1224093291 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1224093300 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it depends on the implementation, there are too many CL implementations < 1224093305 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION didn't think so < 1224093314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for scheme: as far as I understood it, r5rs is case insensitive, but r6rs is case sensitive? < 1224093345 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that your bad pun? < 1224093350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1224093352 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, I don't get it at all < 1224093374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well you will spot the pun when you see it ;P < 1224093390 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, so better than Cockney rhyming slang then < 1224093397 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1224093442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm that slang must be horrible < 1224093446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any example? < 1224093446 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1224093455 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, "apples" instead of "chairs" < 1224093462 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.231 JOIN :#esoteric < 1224093463 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because "apples and pears" go together < 1224093467 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "pears" rhymes with "chairs" < 1224093470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1224093471 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're all like that < 1224093484 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it messes with your loaf < 1224093488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, pears nad chairs doesn't rhyme in the English I speak at least? < 1224093489 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of saying X, you say something associated with something that rhymes with X < 1224093497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and* < 1224093503 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they do in British English, especially if you use a Cockney accent < 1224093508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm < 1224093520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I try to speak Oxford English hm... < 1224093534 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another example is "plates" = "feet" < 1224093549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err... no I don't get that one < 1224093555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor did I get oerjan's joke above < 1224093557 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"plates of meat" is the clue you need < 1224093557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about loaf < 1224093567 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and oerjan's isn't a joke, it's just more Cockney rhyming slang < 1224093571 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on "loaf of bread" in this case < 1224093575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, plates of meat would mean a plate with some meat on it? < 1224093578 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you really have to learn them, they're basically impossible to guess < 1224093578 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1224093579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it some idiom? < 1224093585 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not really an idiom < 1224093589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah meat feet. < 1224093590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1224093590 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus basically impossible to guess in the first place < 1224093602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bread and head? < 1224093605 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1224093608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah that is terrible < 1224093622 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they just said the word that rhymed, it wouldn't be too bad as at least you'd have a chance to guess < 1224093633 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but something associated with a word that rhymes, you have basically no chance < 1224093637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so it is a social group marker? < 1224093641 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, pretty much < 1224093644 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite common in London < 1224093648 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it used to be < 1224093654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except I don't understand how they can share it in the first place < 1224093661 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither do I < 1224093665 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION read that it was invented to fool the police spies < 1224093668 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally speaking you have to have a parent explain < 1224093692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no sane parent should teach that < 1224093696 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: at least that makes some kind of sense < 1224093706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION agrees < 1224093709 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, it's a useful skill to figure out wtf Londoners are talking about < 1224093724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbiab food < 1224094057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the scheme joke will only work in a context where it is clear that the stuff discussed is about scheme < 1224094070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe "generic functional languages" would work too < 1224094099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I think ehird would agree on using it on r6rs < 1224094110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION likes leaving cryptic clues < 1224094150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, it would work in any lisp context, not just scheme < 1224094163 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i sure hope it's a functional pun < 1224094172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, was that a pun? < 1224094176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is unsure < 1224094180 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1224094192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I still can't spot it < 1224094192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1224094203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs over oerjan with a car for making such a bad pun < 1224094205 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :functional has an ordinary meaning < 1224094211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and that was the pun) < 1224094212 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "functional" = "working" in everyday English < 1224094240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if anyone will spot it < 1224094247 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am fully functional < 1224094249 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION spotted a car < 1224094253 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And trained in many techniques < 1224094255 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did once you pointed it out < 1224094262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, bad wasn't it? ;P < 1224094271 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, very < 1224094288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1224094295 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1224094325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1224094333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(define bicycle car) < 1224094364 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... Lisp should have all atoms matching ^c[ad]+r$ as builtins < 1224094369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I suspect it may actually be possible to make some good jokes on the car theme < 1224094386 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, probably < 1224094387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, having all of an infinite set would to too much haskellish ;P < 1224094391 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is not one of them though < 1224094392 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well you need a car to get ahead < 1224094404 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok, that one's better < 1224094406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh yes < 1224094436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that was a combined scheme/haskell pun, even < 1224094446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, didn't spot the haskell part? < 1224094469 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1224094471 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I wouldn't call it haskell < 1224094475 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just list terminology in general < 1224094478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahead was a reference to the list head < 1224094481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly < 1224094494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a terminology used in erlang too for lisp-style lists < 1224094497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :head and tail < 1224094506 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in haskell head is the function name < 1224094522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You will often see [H|T] as a pattern matching the head and tail of a list in erlang < 1224094539 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prolog calls them head and tail too < 1224094547 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :head for the first element, tail for the rest of the list < 1224094550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not very haskellish in fact < 1224094551 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's also [H|T] < 1224094598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also I recently found out some more stuff about the prolog and erlang's relation to each other < 1224094602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may be interested < 1224094646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, http://rafb.net/p/5tVOcH94.html < 1224094677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some bits of syntax, but the actual programming is very different as far as I understood prolog < 1224094740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also: http://rafb.net/p/0cHkQ174.html < 1224094751 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, looks interesting < 1224094757 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, I expect programming would be quite different < 1224094774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, in fact that weird stuff like :- in the first paste, is not valid Erlang < 1224094778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever it is I don't know < 1224094792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would guess prolog from the context < 1224094796 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::- is one of the most common keywords in Prolog < 1224094814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, looks like an operator to me, but ok < 1224094817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what does it do? < 1224094819 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably third after , and . < 1224094830 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it translates as 'if', but it doesn't really work the same way as if in other languages < 1224094847 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means that whatever's to the left of :- is only true some of the time, and what's to the right describes when < 1224094861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sounds like the perl variant? < 1224094871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :die if x == y < 1224094873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever it was < 1224094875 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's a bit like Perl if < 1224094884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ok so it differs from that too?! < 1224094895 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1224094908 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically one the fundamental ideas of Prolog which aren't in other languages < 1224094914 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a bit like function definition < 1224094928 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think about it this way: in C, you can define a function < 1224094928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah it declares a fact is true when foo, doesn't execute code when foo? < 1224094938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not that either < 1224094939 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, except the condition is the code often < 1224094948 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C, if you define a function more than once, that's a link error < 1224094958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, unless it is a common symbol < 1224094966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or various other linker stuff < 1224094967 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes, but that's missing the point here < 1224094972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1224094979 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Prolog, :- sort-of defines a function < 1224094985 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can and usually do give more than one definition < 1224094999 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the function succeeds if the code to the right of the :- does not fail < 1224095001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you mean like different entry points matching different conditions? < 1224095004 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1224095011 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except you can have different entry points matching the same conditions too < 1224095024 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the compiler tries them until one of them works < 1224095026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo(1) -> {ok, 1}; < 1224095035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo(2) -> {error, 2}. < 1224095045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is erlang code < 1224095055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for two different entry points for the same function < 1224095063 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would basically work in Prolog too, but it wouldn't need :- because the function would have no code < 1224095071 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo(1, pair(ok,1)). < 1224095073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well you could have code too < 1224095075 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo(2, pair(error,2)). < 1224095079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just an example < 1224095083 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where pair is a data type you define yourself < 1224095084 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1224095096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, efunge uses pattern matching in function clause a lot < 1224095101 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does Prolog < 1224095101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact most erlang code does < 1224095111 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can use pattern matching for the return value too, though, because that's just an argument < 1224095125 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact most Prolog functions can be called backwards, you give them the return value and they return the arguments you need < 1224095142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think one function have something like 50 or so different entry points in efunge < 1224095142 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me show you a famous example of Prolog code, if I can remember it: < 1224095148 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :member(X, [X|_]). < 1224095150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is the main process_instruction < 1224095169 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :member(X, [_|T]) :- member(X, T). < 1224095194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well that wouldn't work in erlang < 1224095200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not < 1224095204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you got all "match any" in all cases < 1224095208 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a very Prolog-style function < 1224095214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X and T being variable names in erlang < 1224095220 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are in Prolog too < 1224095234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also see line 72-397 in http://bzr.kuonet.org/efunge/trunk/annotate/113?file_id=finterpreter.erl-20080914111420-p21e8gml3lurds4a-1 < 1224095235 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, it tells whether its first arg is a member of its second arg < 1224095243 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so member(2,[1,2,3,4,5]) succeeds < 1224095247 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and member(6,[1,2,3,4,5]) fails < 1224095266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah wait that could work < 1224095267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1224095267 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, more interestingly, member(X,[1,2,3,4,5]) returns up to 5 times with X set to each of the numbers 1 to 5 < 1224095278 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can even do member(1,List) < 1224095285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but would beed to be rewritten a bit < 1224095286 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that will return [1,_] the first time < 1224095290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like having a body for the first clause < 1224095293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1224095296 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, [1|_] < 1224095302 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that fails, it'll try [_,1|_] < 1224095306 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then [_,_,1|_] < 1224095307 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1224095321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : however, more interestingly, member(X,[1,2,3,4,5]) returns up to 5 times with X set to each of the numbers 1 to 5 < 1224095327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that wouldn't happen in erlang < 1224095328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1224095334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that like COME FROM? < 1224095338 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1224095340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you seem to need threads there < 1224095340 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's backtracking < 1224095345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1224095346 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does one at a time < 1224095349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot that thing < 1224095355 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. member(X,[1,2,3,4,5]), X>3 < 1224095364 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will succeed up to twice before failing < 1224095368 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with X=4 and X=5 < 1224095387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be it correct to call prolog an out-of-order language? < 1224095391 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, sort of < 1224095398 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for practical reasons some out-of-orderings don't work < 1224095400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for both meanings? < 1224095401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1224095415 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but member(X,[1,2,3,4,5]),member(X,[3,6,9]) works, for instance < 1224095419 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and binds X to 3 < 1224095425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah... you didn't get that joke < 1224095426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems < 1224095427 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or fails if X was already bound to something that wasn't 3) < 1224095431 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, I did < 1224095432 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually < 1224095438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that bad then < 1224095460 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thinking in Prolog is really strange < 1224095466 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of the only langs of its type < 1224095468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway did you look at the link I pasted? < 1224095470 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1224095498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally 1-5 entry points or so, probably 1-3 < 1224095504 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the syntax at the end is valid Prolog, but bad style < 1224095509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tail recursive functions tend to have 2 at least < 1224095513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless they loop forever < 1224095516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a main loop < 1224095520 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Prolog programs can have millions of entry points to a function < 1224095526 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally when the function is being used as a database < 1224095528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : the syntax at the end is valid Prolog, but bad style ?? < 1224095535 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it declares 3 variables < 1224095537 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doesn't use them < 1224095546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, see the _ in front? < 1224095552 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no_backtracking_no_insert_delete_duality_magic(_,_,_) :- moo. < 1224095555 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be better syntax < 1224095569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no, not that link... < 1224095574 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, which link? < 1224095582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523, also see line 72-397 in http://bzr.kuonet.org/efunge/trunk/annotate/113?file_id=finterpreter.erl-20080914111420-p21e8gml3lurds4a-1 < 1224095591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one < 1224095639 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that sort of thing would be common in Prolog too, for the same reasons < 1224095641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm that url is illogical, but since I renamed the file I guess it makes sense < 1224095646 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you were writing it imperativish < 1224095650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what bit of it? < 1224095655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :process_instruction() is huge < 1224095666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is quite uncommon in erlang < 1224095670 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using an argument to a predicate to make what's effectively a switch statement < 1224095684 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc, Prolog would do it the other way round, too < 1224095694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other way around? < 1224095697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unswitch? < 1224095701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like something for intercal... < 1224095702 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could give it the input and output fungespace < 1224095712 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would work out what command it needed to run to go from one to the other < 1224095730 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a switch statement, except you don't tell it the control variable and it figures out what it is for you < 1224095738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah no, fungespace isn't stored as single assignment in efunge because the performance got so terrible from that, it is stored using something called an ets table < 1224095756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically I didn't want to wait several minutes for mycology to finish < 1224095757 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, can you pass it as an argument to a function or predicate or whatever Erlang calls it? < 1224095770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the fungespace there is just a handle < 1224095777 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, in that case it would work just fin < 1224095779 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*fine < 1224095783 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd just give it input and output handles < 1224095796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ets tables are implemented in the C parts of erlang < 1224095805 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which both had a funge-space already in them < 1224095820 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... in Prolog you'd probably store funge-space with self-modifying code < 1224095823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and are modify in place, meant for database backend for mneisa (a database in erlang) < 1224095830 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to do it modify-in-place < 1224095831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for other cases when speed gets too slow < 1224095836 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how databases and such are done < 1224095850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is basically a non-single assignment hash table < 1224095857 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :No route to host < 1224095862 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what a Prolog database is too < 1224095872 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a predicate which you can modify < 1224095872 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which doesn't allow :- < 1224095874 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which comes to the same thing < 1224095882 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and only constants in the head < 1224095882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well is it implemented in prolog or internally in the language runtime system? < 1224095889 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on the implementation < 1224095897 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know of one which implements it in the runtime < 1224095921 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but normally they aren't special-cased by the interp, they're just a special case of things you could do anyway < 1224095922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also it store erlang tuples. such as {key,value}, where value can be any erlang term, and so can key < 1224095929 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, you cannot modify predicates with clauses containing :- ? < 1224095934 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes you can < 1224095940 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general < 1224095952 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't though some implementations are faster < 1224095959 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you tell them in advance that you don't plan to < 1224095963 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1224095971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway the point of them in erlang is that they are high performance for when everything else fails, thus implemented in the C parts of erlang < 1224096025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so the FungeSpace thing passed around is just an integer I think < 1224096041 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, well in Prolog if you wanted to do it efficiently < 1224096044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :internal representation of such a handle "may change without notice" < 1224096047 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wouldn't pass around anything < 1224096049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to man page < 1224096055 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have a funge_space predicate < 1224096057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but debugger seems to indicate it is indeed an integer < 1224096065 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and modify it dynamically to allow for changes in the program < 1224096074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm that would require knowing what number the handle ends up as at compile time? < 1224096084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which simply wouldn't work in erlang < 1224096085 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you don't get it < 1224096087 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there wouldn't be a handle < 1224096091 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just part of your code < 1224096094 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was self-modifying < 1224096096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1224096100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah erlang doesn't have that < 1224096119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I think that sounds great for writing a befunge interpreter < 1224096124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do it in a self modifying language! < 1224096132 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know how you can write a ROM in C, effectively, using switch(location) {case 0: return 'H'; case 1: return 'e'; case 2: return 'l' ... < 1224096143 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prolog databases are like that, but self-modifying < 1224096147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, err what? < 1224096154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ROM as in read only memory? < 1224096157 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1224096160 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the code < 1224096166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would use const < 1224096169 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1224096175 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but imagine you're on an embedded systen < 1224096178 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*system < 1224096181 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has lots of ROM but hardly any RAM < 1224096190 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be a sensible way to store a string, if the ROM isn't addressable < 1224096190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like static const int myrom[] = { 'a', 'b' } < 1224096193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1224096207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm... < 1224096215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if the ROM isn't addressable" indeed < 1224096226 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it happens < 1224096230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also about using _ < 1224096231 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in architectures with separate data and code < 1224096234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in erlang it is bad style < 1224096239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better prefix a variable with _ < 1224096252 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erlang _ is almost certainly based on Prolog _ < 1224096262 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is just an anonymous variable which is different each time you use it < 1224096267 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to mean "this data will be discarded" < 1224096268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that tells compiler you know you don't want to use it, so it shouldn't warn, And the compiler will optimise away unused variables anyway. < 1224096269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ^ < 1224096279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is still easy to see what it is for < 1224096281 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1224096282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike a plain _ < 1224096288 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prolog came first < 1224096289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_FungeSpace tells so much more < 1224096293 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they didn't think of having more than one sort of _ < 1224096295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in case you later want to use it < 1224096299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and discarded < 1224096322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, does prolog have the _ as prefix for rest of variable too? < 1224096331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I described just above < 1224096335 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ by itself is an anon variable < 1224096342 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ followed by anything else is implementation-reserved, IIRC < 1224096362 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you debug Prolog code the implementation will print out free variables as _0 and _1 or whatever < 1224096370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider: < 1224096375 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using the same number to show that two variables have the same value, but the value isn't known yet < 1224096376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iterate(_Count, _, dead, Retval, _) -> < 1224096382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you want to change it < 1224096398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you need to dig to find what those two _ represents < 1224096399 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I understand < 1224096401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't clear < 1224096403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iterate(_Count, _Instr, dead, Retval, _Space) -> < 1224096404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however < 1224096405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is clear < 1224096410 0 :slereah!n=butt@ANantes-252-1-39-168.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1224096415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact count too would be _ < 1224096419 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good Prolog style involves putting all the clauses for one predicate together < 1224096420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it is just too confusing < 1224096428 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can tell easily enough just by looking at the other cases < 1224096429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so does erlang < 1224096443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but maybe you implement a function that conforms to some interface < 1224096446 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1224096447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you pass it as a reference < 1224096449 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's only a stop-gap really < 1224096452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhat like C function pointers < 1224096455 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you want to put a constant in the head < 1224096455 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1224096465 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iterate(1, _, dead, Retval, _) < 1224096471 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how to know that the 1 refers to a count? < 1224096488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very true point < 1224096498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you could do < 1224096506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iterate(1 = Count, _, dead, Retval, _) < 1224096508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1224096512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even < 1224096515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iterate(1 = _Count, _, dead, Retval, _) < 1224096532 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you may as well just use inline comments then < 1224096537 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they use /* */ for that nowadays < 1224096546 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although Prolog comments were traditionally % to end of line, IIRC < 1224096549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erlang use %% < 1224096554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the start of the line < 1224096568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it is % < 1224096586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but %% and %%% is used in different places for human readability reasons < 1224096595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and auto-indention purposes < 1224096617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think somewhat like 80% or more of #erlang use emacs to edit their erlang code < 1224096622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://rafb.net/p/j0izSW37.html < 1224096625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1224096663 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so weird seeing code that vaguely resembles Prolog, but that has implicit return values < 1224096678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implicit? < 1224096688 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in Prolog things don't have return values < 1224096695 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you use pass-by-trail in the argument list < 1224096696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the return value is the value of the last expression in the block < 1224096700 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, exactly < 1224096701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything have a return value < 1224096715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even stuff that wouldn't have return values in scheme got return values here < 1224096717 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Prolog, you'd do something like add(A,B,ReturnValue) :- ReturnValue is A+B. < 1224096722 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ReturnValue is explicit here < 1224096726 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything returns a value in Scheme. < 1224096743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ok that sounds like how I wrote return string in envbot because $() is so slow in bash :P < 1224096747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I passed a parameter name < 1224096749 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prolog's rule is nice and simple, then: nothing obviously returns a value < 1224096756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1224096757 0 :slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1224096758 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all return values are done via arguments < 1224096758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and used printf -v "$1" '%s' "foo" < 1224096759 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :functions return one value < 1224096760 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pass or fail < 1224096760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1224096761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1224096772 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: except they never return fail < 1224096781 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: True. < 1224096783 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if you're talking like that, cut-fail is another possibility < 1224096790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Everything returns a value in Scheme. <-- exactly < 1224096793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was my point < 1224096802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you fail to understand humor obviously... < 1224096804 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cuts are great < 1224096804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : even stuff that wouldn't have return values in scheme got return values here < 1224096810 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a nonseqitur < 1224096811 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you spend ages trying to learn Prolog < 1224096817 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and eventually you 'get it' < 1224096822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it's *has < 1224096829 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you come across cuts, which completely mess up everything you learnt < 1224096830 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't scheme have multiple return values, or was that CL? < 1224096836 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it does < 1224096838 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does cl < 1224096846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes I agree I said that. And that was my point < 1224096852 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some implementations have dynamic cuts too < 1224096852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since everything have a return value in scheme < 1224096859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*has < 1224096870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1224096875 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are a bit like longjmp in C, given the dread Prolog programmers generally hold them in < 1224096885 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except they're useful slightly more often < 1224096893 0 :Slereah_!n=butt@ANantes-252-1-39-168.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1224096910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so it is considered worse than goto in C? < 1224096922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cut is a bit like goto in C < 1224096927 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that it's used a lot more often < 1224096936 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's something that's jarring to Prolog programmers < 1224096936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1224096940 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but has no real alternatives < 1224096944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1224096947 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... think of it more like GOTO in Basic < 1224096960 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except a BASIC in which you don't actually need to use gotos < 1224096967 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you have functions and ifs and those are enough in theory < 1224096970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well I don't know any basic except "10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD" 20 GOTO 10" < 1224096975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a newline obviously < 1224096978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's about it < 1224096982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never ever coded in basic < 1224096987 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that is very typical BASIC < 1224096995 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally there's some sort of IF statement < 1224096995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think it is the classical basic < 1224097006 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :often it's as simple as IF A=2+3 THEN 10, though < 1224097014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesn't say anything about the language really, apart from that it lacks labels other than line numbers < 1224097015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and loops < 1224097044 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the trick to BASIC is that there is no more than that < 1224097057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well more recent basic seem to have it? < 1224097060 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1224097064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no I don't consider VB then < 1224097076 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even QBasic has more control flow stuff than traditional BASIC < 1224097085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't say I know it either < 1224097106 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it was Microsoft's killer app for MS-DOS, I think, originally < 1224097110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have seen some VB or maybe VBA, and about the only thing I remember is "Dim foo As" or something like that < 1224097118 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which explains how old it is to some extent < 1224097129 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, it's also one of the platforms I learnt programming on < 1224097132 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's a bad one to choose < 1224097137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, basic? < 1224097143 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QBasic in particular < 1224097150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty basic choice < 1224097164 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, BASIC was invented for beginners in the first place < 1224097168 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what the B in BASIC stands for < 1224097172 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: gotcha < 1224097176 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Beginner's All-Symbolic Instruction Code" < 1224097180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that is why basic is basic. < 1224097182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm? < 1224097191 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thought he saw a pun < 1224097196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, there was one yes < 1224097199 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I spotted it too < 1224097206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just didn't understand why you said "gotcha" as a response < 1224097229 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn < 1224097232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it is easy to make basic jokes based on basic < 1224097237 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'t bad enough for a groan < 1224097249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what one? the last? < 1224097266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah I never claimed to make *high quality* jokes < 1224097279 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pretty basic choice < 1224097289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so what about " anyway it is easy to make basic jokes based on basic" < 1224097298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was that one worse? < 1224097334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh and I learned the first steps of programming in an even worse environment < 1224097344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet you can't guess, unless I told you before I forgot it < 1224097345 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too much redundancy i feel < 1224097353 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you didn't < 1224097357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I fear you are basically correct there. < 1224097361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, Apple Script < 1224097365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on Mac OS 7 < 1224097409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, just an example: it allows an optional "the" in many places to make the code look more like English < 1224097418 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sounds like INTERCAL < 1224097433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and use "of" somewhat like -> but more like <- actually, since you state it in the other order < 1224097461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set myvariable to the first character of the string "hello world" < 1224097465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that may be valid apple script < 1224097467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1224097479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"first character" may not be a valid selector for a string < 1224097489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you may not ned "the string" there < 1224097498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was ages ago I last coded in that horrible language < 1224097510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh also it can be recorded < 1224097516 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, very COBOLly < 1224097518 0 :atrapado!i=ro@cm36185.red83-165.mundo-r.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1224097521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it was intended to script applications in < 1224097524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you press record < 1224097536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then do some task, like selecting a file, and double clicking < 1224097539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then that would be recorded < 1224097560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also wikipedia says: < 1224097562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say "Hello World!" < 1224097566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleScript < 1224097579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell application "Microsoft Word" < 1224097579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : quit < 1224097579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :end tell < 1224097581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the same as < 1224097581 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ehird's hi ais523 script is written in AppleScript, IIRC < 1224097584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell application "Microsoft Word" to quit < 1224097588 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1224097588 0 :ais523!n=ais523@eso-std.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1224097589 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1224097593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it is? < 1224097599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1224097607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah you should paste it < 1224097626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well his irc client would provide the needed interface to use it from apple script I guess < 1224097628 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :colloquy's scripts are in applescript < 1224097628 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, AppleScript is better than Windows 3.1 Recorder < 1224097628 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes < 1224097633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :many mac os apps do < 1224097633 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I tried using for a while and eventually gave up < 1224097643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird care to pastebin? < 1224097644 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly, i hate applescript but its convenient < 1224097652 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's only like 4 lines, I can probably paste it here < 1224097653 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it recorded the location of mouse clicks on the screen, and replayed them < 1224097657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ok :) < 1224097661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't know how long it was < 1224097679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think functions were done with an "on" clause < 1224097684 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1224097686 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on is for events < 1224097690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah ok < 1224097690 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using terms from application "Colloquy" < 1224097690 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : on member joined m in room < 1224097690 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if m's name starts with "ais523" then < 1224097691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : tell room to send message "hi " & m's name < 1224097691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : end if < 1224097691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : end member joined < 1224097693 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :end using terms from < 1224097696 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with..indentation < 1224097699 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 lines < 1224097699 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1224097700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"using terms from application"? < 1224097704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: shrug < 1224097706 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the indentation came through at this end < 1224097708 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as italics < 1224097709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one must be new since OS 7 < 1224097710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1224097711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it imports all the stuff in Colloquy's namespace < 1224097712 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it always does for some reason < 1224097716 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "member", "room"... < 1224097721 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lines are in italic if they start with an odd number of tabs < 1224097725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did see one-char wide tabs here ehird < 1224097728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that is what you meant < 1224097731 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kay < 1224097747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc irssi got an issue with literal tabs < 1224097764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pixel 7 of row 3 of TIFF image "my bitmap" < 1224097765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1224097768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shudder* < 1224097818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway last I coded in apple script must have been something like 7 years ago < 1224097822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :around when I was 10 or so < 1224097829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually more < 1224097832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11 years then < 1224097844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which ends up at around 10-11 years old yeah < 1224097859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1224097864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh btw iirc the apple script stuff allows using other languages than apple script < 1224097865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11 years ago was before os x was released < 1224097866 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1224097870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no it doesn't < 1224097872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes I said so < 1224097875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, OS 7 < 1224097879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was what I used < 1224097879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1224097881 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it had applescript? < 1224097883 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird beans < 1224097884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it did < 1224097897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, with the script editor that could record < 1224097910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, or at least 7.5.1 or so did < 1224097954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also it allows different languages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleScript#Open_Scripting_Architecture < 1224097958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1224097962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew I was right there < 1224098185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so what do you think of AppleScript syntax? < 1224098195 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very COBOLly < 1224098199 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in lowercase rather than caps < 1224098228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I think it got more possible ways to say something than perl at least in some cases < 1224098250 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Perl has an infinite number of ways to say things, you can get libraries to use more < 1224098254 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of them are in ACME of course < 1224098277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACME? < 1224098308 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: part of CPAN < 1224098313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1224098314 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for things that aren't particularly serious < 1224098317 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like Brainfuck interps < 1224098322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm ok < 1224098336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was first: CPAN, CTAN, CEAN? < 1224098339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess CPAN < 1224098343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe CTAN < 1224098375 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, CUAN almost certainly came later < 1224098377 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and seems to be dead atm < 1224098383 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Perl archive, CPAN, is based on the CTAN model. < 1224098383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CUAN was? < 1224098387 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlambda < 1224098390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah so CTAN is older < 1224098395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1224098403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well Tex is old, so not strange < 1224098407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how old is perl? < 1224098458 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"CTAN was built in 1992 ... < 1224098476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm and cpan? < 1224098477 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl 1989 < 1224098484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm that new < 1224098488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought it was older < 1224098489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpan 1995(?) < 1224098501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway that means perl is about as old as I am. hm < 1224098522 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Perl was originally developed by Larry Wall, a linguist working as a systems administrator for NASA, in 1987, < 1224098531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1987, older then < 1224098533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1224098618 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... that's the year I was born < 1224098626 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder when CRAN was founded... the R language itself seems to have started around 1997, so obviously later than CTAN/CPAN. < 1224098627 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder which is older, Perl or me? < 1224098677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CRAN is for? < 1224098678 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Maybe you have the same birthday. How awesome would that be? < 1224098685 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be pretty awesome < 1224098686 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: R scripts, obviously. < 1224098696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm what paradigm is R now again? < 1224098702 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R is GNU S. < 1224098709 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, statistics. < 1224098709 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Larry Wall began work on Perl in 1987, while working as a programmer at Unisys,[6] and released version 1.0 to the comp.sources.misc newsgroup on December 18, 1987. < 1224098713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I would find having the same birthday as perl embarrassing < 1224098731 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1224098744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets just say I'm no big perl fan :P < 1224098804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I think apple script may have the shortest audio hello world program of any language < 1224098810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleScript#Hello_World.21 < 1224098816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that actually *says* hello world < 1224098827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :displaying it would be longer < 1224098839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like creating a dialog, at least under OS 7 < 1224098850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I don't remember syntaxz < 1224098852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :syntax* < 1224098863 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, pity, gprolog doesn't have dynamic cuts < 1224098869 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think they can be written in terms of throw and catch < 1224098899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm try in erlang got a return value btw < 1224098910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in try ... catch ... end < 1224098933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is either that of the relevant catch case, or that of the last statement in the try block < 1224098936 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well it doesn't in Prolog for obvious reasons, it's trivial to get a value out of it using unification though < 1224098939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually try got weird syntax < 1224099000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try of mymatch -> ...; myothermatch -> ... catch throw:mycustomexception -> ...; error:badarith -> "Most likely division by zero of fp exception" end < 1224099014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and the last clause must _not_ end in ; < 1224099016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is no typo < 1224099041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adding a ; to the last clause in a if, case, try, catch or other such block is a syntax error < 1224099053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is actually rather irritating < 1224099067 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1224099075 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it would be in Prolog too, for the related constructs < 1224099081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and results in silly syntax like writing ; at the front < 1224099082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like: < 1224099085 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you never do it by mistake though because you always put a full stop there instead < 1224099089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :case myfunc() of < 1224099093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foo -> ... < 1224099098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ; bar -> ... < 1224099101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1224099110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes some people do that seriously < 1224099136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also in erlang you get nothing there, full stop only at end of the last function clause < 1224099138 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, Prolog works well due to having basically no control flow constructs < 1224099144 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::- , ; ! < 1224099148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :; at end of other clauses < 1224099149 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and . for the end of a predicate < 1224099153 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*clause < 1224099154 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's it. < 1224099159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and , between expressions in a single block < 1224099204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however the use of .,; neatly sidesteps two issues at once < 1224099222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) {} not matching indention, this is the reason python fans say their block style is better < 1224099250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2) indention ending up wrong when moving code around in a function, this is the reason C fans use for why python style blocks are bad < 1224099263 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, Prolog sidesteps the issues like that too < 1224099267 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also Prolog clauses tend to be short < 1224099272 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so often they don't need indentation at all < 1224099275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in erlang indention doesn't matter, nor do you have { that could match the wrong } < 1224099295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well not indenting is considering bad coding style in erlang < 1224099309 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it would be < 1224099315 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Prolog indenting is common < 1224099323 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only if you write something more than one line long < 1224099325 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :often, you don't < 1224099343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I do sometimes put match and code on same line < 1224099350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only if all the clauses are short < 1224099361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since mixing newline + indention and same line is hard to read < 1224099369 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1224099373 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally all the clauses are short though < 1224099383 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm rather partial to Haskell-style indentation for that sort of thing < 1224099390 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't newline after the :- < 1224099397 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the next line is indented to after the :- < 1224099406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think erlang style base sense apart from the ; before an end < 1224099414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :case, if and so on are all terminated by end < 1224099417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well try isn't < 1224099420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is terminated by case < 1224099421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1224099423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by catch* < 1224099430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is then terminated by end < 1224099441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you can have begin < 1224099482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly used for funs (like lambda in scheme) < 1224099509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well not totally, since you don't have it for defining "normal" functions) < 1224099531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except the compiler actually use that for them too internally, and then converts it back) < 1224099532 0 :p3k!n=p3k@vie-078-142-166-125.dsl.sil.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1224099593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pokes ais523  < 1224099598 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, bit-rot hasn't broken my Prolog Scheme! < 1224099600 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- plscheme. < 1224099600 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|: (+ 1 (call/cc (lambda (k) (+ 2 (k 3))))) < 1224099600 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 < 1224099607 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All that Prolog talk made me test it. < 1224099622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hates call/cc < 1224099627 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you wrote that? < 1224099627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gives me a headache < 1224099631 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's terrifying beyond measure. < 1224099634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so mind explaining that code < 1224099638 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: For the "logic programming" project-work. < 1224099644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I basically fail as soon as call/cc is involved < 1224099647 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's written in continuation-passing style Prolog. :p < 1224099658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ^ < 1224099658 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, Prolog uses CPS a lot more than other langs < 1224099667 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the only way to maintain loop counters and such sometimes < 1224099703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how does a program coded in prolog compare in speed to one written in scheme? < 1224099707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or one written in C? < 1224099713 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prolog is slow if not optimised < 1224099720 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are many optimisers of different qualities around < 1224099722 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The call/cc is just giving (+ 1 []) as the continuation (named k), which is then called (k 3) to get (+ 1 3); the (+ 2 ...) part is forgotten. < 1224099743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ok < 1224099791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call/cc is kind of like: the ( ) representing sacks in each other, call/cc turns them inside out < 1224099796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least that is how it feels < 1224099808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably make no sense < 1224099818 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange analogy, but I sort of see what you're getting at < 1224099836 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Underlambda definition of making a continuation might help, but probably doesn't < 1224099840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? that is more than what I did 10 seconds after I said it < 1224099864 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#XCx| => X(X(x))x < 1224099873 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc that makes no sense if you don't understand Underlambda, probably < 1224099876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, mind telling me what language that is? < 1224099879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah ok < 1224099889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and no I don't indeed < 1224099952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact I never really tried to learn any of un.*(load|lambda) < 1224099966 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, Underlambda's a cross between Underload and Unlambda < 1224099982 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is designed to be trivial to interpret, relatively easy to compile, yet expressive < 1224099987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well that regex included both of them, so that really doesn't help ;P < 1224099990 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also you can compile Unlambda into it < 1224099999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and underload? < 1224100031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also that holds true for any tc language then! < 1224100067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume you meant "trivially compile" < 1224100069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some such < 1224100096 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, easily compile < 1224100101 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "compile without cheating" < 1224100118 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bundling an interpreter works for all TC langs, but is normally considered cheating < 1224100123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well since you can compile C into bf, is that cheating? < 1224100140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah you mean like that < 1224100154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also you could compile bf to C in befunge-93 < 1224100155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet < 1224100161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is mostly string replacement < 1224100191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, probably < 1224100195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though b93 isn't tc < 1224100200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compiling A to B in C doesn't mean that C is tc < 1224100214 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if A is tc, though, and C is tc or lower, it means that B is tc < 1224100214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, interpreting in C would < 1224100237 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1224100239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, "tc or lower"? < 1224100248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :higher? oracle machines? < 1224100250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or hwat < 1224100252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what* < 1224100259 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1224100275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, could they do it if B wasn't tc? < 1224100280 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory, an oracle machine could figure out what A did and translate it to an infinitely large lookup table, for instance < 1224100297 0 :Mony!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1224100302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wouldn't work if B had limited ram < 1224100303 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc this doesn't actually work for any real sub-TC languages B, but some mathematical ones it odes < 1224100305 0 :Mony!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Ne regrettons pas le passé, ne nous préoccupons pas de l'avenir : le sage vit dans le présent." < 1224100305 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and bye Mony < 1224100310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wasn't TC for that reason < 1224100320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1224100325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just said < 1224100347 0 :p3k!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1224100361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is lazy evaluation of that look up table allowed? :D < 1224100376 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: by what? < 1224100384 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's by B, then arguably B is doing its calculation instead < 1224100389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, by C < 1224100396 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, in that case B could trivally be sub-TC < 1224100400 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be cat, for instance < 1224100411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and C wouldn't need to be super-tc < 1224100412 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with C being an interpreter for A < 1224100415 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1224100417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could just be haskell < 1224100418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1224100418 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that is cheating < 1224100497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could a tc language solve the halting problem for sub-tc languages? < 1224100513 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, for some sub-tc langs < 1224100520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as? < 1224100524 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite state machines < 1224100530 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can brute-force their halting problem < 1224100533 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a TC lang < 1224100539 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just with a sufficiently bigger FSM < 1224100546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly is a "finite state machines" < 1224100563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/s"$/"/ < 1224100579 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's basically anything that can only have a finite amount of internal state < 1224100581 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like any real computer < 1224100587 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a programming language without infinite memory < 1224100591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but isn't a computer a BSM? < 1224100595 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if A is tc, though, and C is tc or lower, it means that B is tc < 1224100602 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a BSM is a special case of an FSM < 1224100608 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think you need a restriction on C < 1224100612 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one which would be TC if not for the bound on memory < 1224100619 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you do if B can take infinite input < 1224100627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? So a FSM is superset of BSM? < 1224100641 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since if A is tc you can write a universal program for it < 1224100668 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the simple fact it can be compiled to B means B is tc < 1224100669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which you couldn't compile into B? < 1224100678 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regardless of C < 1224100702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, not if it was compiled by an oracle machine C, which generated an infinite look up table for all outcomes of the program, as I ais523 said? < 1224100707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/I/ < 1224100716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that wrong? < 1224100725 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, FSM is a superset of BSM < 1224100730 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: doesn't matter, it still has to result in _one_ B program < 1224100735 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it includes things that wouldn't be TC even with infinite memory < 1224100741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is BSM the most powerful variant of FSM or? < 1224100748 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1224100754 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, for certain definitions of "powerful" < 1224100756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, sure? < 1224100760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? < 1224100774 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: some not-nearly-TC FSMs are better at certain things < 1224100778 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like factorising primes < 1224100787 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as the whole brouhaha with ais523 himself and the wolfram TM shows, TC is dubious to define when input can be infinite < 1224100799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, quantum computers are FSM but not BSM or? < 1224100841 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: quantum computers are infinite state machines < 1224100851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is that super-turing? < 1224100857 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I agree with you for finite input < 1224100867 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you can't simulate them on real computers exactly, you have to approximate < 1224100872 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the infinite state can't be extracted < 1224100879 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they're probabilistic anyway < 1224100885 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the probabilities are arbitrary-precision real numbers < 1224100889 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, that's because our computers are kinda finate-state. ;p < 1224100891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so that means they are sub-tc or super-tc? < 1224100891 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can't find out what the probability is < 1224100898 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sub-TC, in practice < 1224100905 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, they just return results at random < 1224100905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm ok < 1224100922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a good quantum computer program tries to increase the chance of the result being right as much as possible < 1224100935 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but any interesting quantum program can return any possible answer, in theory < 1224100949 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quantum physics? < 1224100954 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is my time to shine :D < 1224100955 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just try to maximise the probability of getting the right answer, then you check the answer on a conventional computer and run again if you're wrong < 1224100956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so even running it multiple times isn't fool-proof? < 1224100957 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is it? < 1224100959 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_: quantum computing < 1224100960 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1224100969 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but normally you can check the answer quite quickly < 1224100980 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finding an element in a database, for instance, or factorising prime products < 1224100995 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 : Well, there is quantum in it < 1224101008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, worst case is O(inf) then? < 1224101010 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1224101012 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And we're doing pretty much only that < 1224101020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that is as bad as bogo-sort! < 1224101024 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1224101034 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the typical case is a lot better though < 1224101040 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quantum physics, solid state physics using quantum physics, atomic physics using quantum physics, group theory for quantum physics < 1224101041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm < 1224101049 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like a festival of quantum < 1224101050 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :factorising prime products in O(log n), for instance < 1224101070 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally it only takes 5 tries or so < 1224101084 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, when that algorithm returns the wrong answer, it's most likely either close to the correct answer, or 0 < 1224101101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but you can't be sure it is a prime? You can be sure if it returns the factors for a composite I guess < 1224101112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but never sure if it is actually prime < 1224101117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or? < 1224101146 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: normally you know the number you're looking for is the product of two primes in the first place < 1224101148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also doesn't the integer one return 0 or 1? < 1224101149 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for code-breaking, and such < 1224101153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true or false < 1224101166 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about factorising prime products < 1224101171 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than checking for primality < 1224101183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shoors algorithm is the latter isn't it? < 1224101190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or however the name was spelled < 1224101195 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shor's < 1224101199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1224101260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk, unknown if it lasts till(sp?) tomorrow or if I get back later < 1224101263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :later today* < 1224101352 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i'm not sure that a quantum computer really requires infinite memory to simulate exactly. you should be able to rewrite things with explicit matrices, which blow up exponentially but not infinitely. < 1224101367 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah, interesting < 1224101374 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: [OT] Till and 'til are both correct short-forms of "until" < 1224101378 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in theory, you could give it arbitrary reals as the input to a probability rotation < 1224101391 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there'd be no way to input those using any known input method < 1224101421 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i vaguely recall something about quantum computing not being able to do more than PSPACE problems < 1224101435 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in polynomial time) < 1224101461 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, quantum computing doesn't do anything a regular computer couldn't do < 1224101471 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just O(n/log(n)) faster < 1224101476 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is normally a very worthwhile trade < 1224101571 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But quantum computers cannot love. < 1224101587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually night < 1224101591 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not yet. < 1224101597 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night AnMaster < 1224101644 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: [OT] "till" is not a shortened form of "until" < 1224101661 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :head-of-horn-clause ":-" body-of-horn-clause < 1224101665 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that the meaning < 1224101670 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :defines a procedure < 1224101671 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"BQP is contained in the complexity class #P (or more precisely in the associated class of decision problems P#P)[19], which is a subclass of PSPACE. < 1224101672 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1224101687 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "procedure" is one way to put it, they're pretty different from imperative procedures < 1224101701 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Horn clause" is the correct name, unfortunately not very useful for people who don't know what that means < 1224102517 0 :Corun!n=Corun@94-192-102-5.zone6.bethere.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1224102689 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1224102698 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i seriously read that as "horny procedure" < 1224102710 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/me continues reading logs < 1224102712 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1224102716 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not my day. < 1224102717 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1224102717 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i seriously avoided mentioning that < 1224103101 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P#P < 1224103102 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1224103118 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the #P should be a superscript < 1224103120 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :horn clauses are trivial < 1224103133 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and funnnnn < 1224103172 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that so? so, err, does it literally mean polynomial + polynomial exponent? < 1224103183 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't heard bout no P#P's < 1224103204 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if it's the usual meaning, P^#P means "can be solved in polynomial time with a #P oracle" < 1224103216 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see, i see < 1224103225 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and care to tell me what a #P oracle is? :P < 1224103229 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no i won't wpw < 1224103231 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*wp < 1224103265 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like having a Turing machine, except it has a special instruction that allows it to solve any #P problem instantly < 1224103279 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what's #P :D < 1224103283 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and right < 1224103292 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an oracle, ofc < 1224103318 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some other class of problems, probably counting problems by the # < 1224103321 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just wasn't familiar with the term except for meaning a superturing thingie < 1224103357 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah the superturing thing is when you take the oracle problem to be the halting problem or such < 1224103414 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"More formally, #P is the class of function problems of the form "compute f(x)," where f is the number of accepting paths of an NP machine." < 1224103469 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so while NP checks whether a Turing machine _can_ succeed, #P counts how many alternative ways it can do so < 1224103497 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i just haven't generalized that, because when i learned the concept of oracle, it was enough complex for me as it was, and i didn't exactly know much about computational complexity in general < 1224103523 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that came with a lag < 1224103542 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except the lag was in the fact i had scrolled a few lines up and was responding to your old message < 1224103595 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see how that's a subset of PSPACE < 1224103702 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"One consequence of Toda's theorem is that a polynomial-time machine with a #P oracle (P#P) can solve all problems in PH, the entire polynomial hierarchy." < 1224103710 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try the new pro-log, with horny clauses! < 1224103831 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-56-200.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1224104054 0 :omniscient_idiot!n=boa@adsl-230-206-75.btr.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1224104544 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :No route to host < 1224104544 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1224104827 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | haskell isn't stack based < 1224105335 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1224105834 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@HSI-KBW-091-089-031-154.hsi2.kabelbw.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1224105929 0 :ab5tract!n=ab5tract@pool-71-246-5-13.phlapa.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1224106301 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@m-15.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1224108720 0 :ab5tract!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1224108932 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1224109267 0 :Corun!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1224109376 0 :Corun!n=Corun@94-192-102-5.zone6.bethere.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1224109391 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@cpc3-stkn2-0-0-cust106.midd.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1224109427 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Abandonando" < 1224109749 0 :Corun!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1224109788 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot! < 1224109788 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I feel that it would be far better for people to see that it's wrong to do so, and keep the government out of it. < 1224109809 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with "haskell isn't stack based"? < 1224109921 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if the government wants haskell to be stack based, clearly it must be wrong. < 1224109937 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1224110035 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who, Haskell or the gubmint < 1224110049 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the government, presumably < 1224110054 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1224110069 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders what stack-based Haskell would be like < 1224110078 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I suspect Haskell compiles into Underload < 1224110083 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(barring I/O and other things like that) < 1224110097 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wouldn't anything compile into anything? < 1224110103 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, easily < 1224110125 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, since it's sort of functional, I guess < 1224110621 0 :p3k!n=p3k@vie-078-142-166-125.dsl.sil.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1224110633 0 :p3k!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1224112036 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1224112484 0 :puzzlet_!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.231 JOIN :#esoteric < 1224112890 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1224113091 0 :GregorR-L!n=gregor@65.183.185.132 JOIN :#esoteric < 1224113117 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking for trivialities of human behavior that can be formalized to a stupid degree. < 1224113117 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1224113128 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I formalized the order of urinals (using an entire whiteboard), but now I'm looking for more :P < 1224113237 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1224113239 0 :ehird!n=ehird@eso-std.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1224113242 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1224113246 0 :ehird!n=ehird@eso-std.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1224113259 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bouncy bouncy. < 1224113265 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1224113304 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: formalise quit/join spam in IRC channels < 1224113620 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too nondeterministic. < 1224113632 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or rather, too determined by the whims of stupid humans :P < 1224113640 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, then, flamewars < 1224113643 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would actually be useful < 1224113644 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey now. < 1224113646 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm < 1224113661 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would take study, but I'll bet it's more formulaic than one might initially think. < 1224115034 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuyqwe@bas2-toronto47-1242397827.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1224115124 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poiuy_qwert: You implemented 2L! Zomg.