< 1222993402 0 :CO2Games!n=CO2Games@75-163-236-8.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1222995078 0 :danopia_!n=danopia@pool-70-18-190-217.pskn.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1222995589 0 :danopia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1222995592 0 :danopia_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :danopia < 1222996223 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"@+" < 1222998628 0 :danopia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1222998667 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :pikhq < 1222998675 0 :danopia!n=danopia@fullcirclemagazine/developer/danopia JOIN :#esoteric < 1222999126 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf68ca.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1223000940 0 :psygnisfive!i=82f5c439@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4531cbe8f7080a93 JOIN :#esoteric < 1223000975 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1223001144 0 :psygnisf_!n=psygnisf@to196-057.resnet.stonybrook.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1223001159 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1223001354 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Nothing to see here" < 1223001440 0 :psygnisfive!i=82f5c439@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9c9511f96ed8bdc7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1223002275 0 :psygnisf_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1223003248 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client" < 1223005647 0 :hmetz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1223006228 0 :cherez!n=cherez@r02snw275.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1223006279 0 :cherez!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1223010037 0 :appletizer!i=abc@82-32-123-120.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1223010420 0 :appletizer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1223012942 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | we can have nil = \x y -> y < 1223013542 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who here might be willing to write me a simple test program that utilizes all of the commands in this instruction set I made? < 1223013610 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll take that as a nobody < 1223015823 0 :slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's school time < 1223015824 0 :slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So mehbe later < 1223016422 0 :danopia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable) < 1223016738 0 :danopia!n=danopia@fullcirclemagazine/developer/danopia JOIN :#esoteric < 1223017331 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1223018103 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@j-147.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1223019784 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1223020510 0 :danopia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Network is unreachable < 1223020550 0 :danopia!n=danopia@fullcirclemagazine/developer/danopia JOIN :#esoteric < 1223020799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1223020800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1223026455 0 :Slereah_!n=butt@ANantes-252-1-60-65.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1223026483 0 :slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1223031365 0 :danopia_!n=danopia@pool-70-17-54-99.pskn.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1223031503 0 :danopia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable) < 1223031509 0 :danopia_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :danopia < 1223034542 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but we originally (mists of time) come from Scotland < 1223034666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm that topic makes sense in the context of the first section < 1223034680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the backlog, but we came from scotland", is that true? < 1223034703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it *almost* makes sense < 1223034842 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; the "mists of time" remark makes it sound like "but even before the backlog, though it says 'entire', there was the time when we came from Scotland". < 1223034893 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Why don't you ever say anything clever like that? < 1223034893 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: at least, it mostly works, but it < 1223035233 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1223035241 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.231 JOIN :#esoteric < 1223035762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly yeah < 1223035788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how often do you update the language db for fungot with new logs? < 1223035789 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah the first one < 1223035805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, first what? < 1223035805 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i understand f has an alternative syntax < 1223035819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, what f? < 1223035820 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: are we allowed to submit an interpreter in basic and don't release the source < 1223035861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, Interpreter for what? And also it sounds like a truly horrible idea to use BASIC for it anyway.... < 1223035861 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i got the control wrong? < 1223035869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, Control for what? < 1223035886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^echo optbot < 1223035886 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot optbot < 1223035887 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: amb(1,2,3) returns 1 2 or 3 < 1223035887 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: good < 1223035887 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot: yeah drscheme from debian package installed nicely but drscheme wont launch, complains about that? < 1223035889 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: :DD < 1223035889 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot: thats worse than fnord < 1223035890 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: <3::=3<*3*; *3*3::=3*3*; *3*>::=3> < 1223035890 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot: it's in the < 1223035891 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: How about have integer literals repeat? So + adds 1 to top of stack, and +9 adds ten. < 1223035892 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot: works nicely enough in w3m, but i < 1223035892 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: It is suppose to give me a message that it knows the we are ~exec in somethine < 1223035915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worse than fnord? < 1223035918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shudder* < 1223036269 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1223036333 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.231 JOIN :#esoteric < 1223037271 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : who here might be willing to write me a simple test program that utilizes all of the commands in this instruction set I made? < 1223037286 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: I'm busy right now, but I might try later depending on how easy it is < 1223037289 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you give me a link? < 1223037741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wasn't it he that made the bloated brainfuck based lang without support for nested loops? < 1223037749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though he fixed that iirc < 1223037753 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1223037773 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, BF-based langs are common ways to get into esoprogramming < 1223037778 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even I wrote one < 1223037792 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I changed the semantics of [ and , to make the language reversible, not sure how usable the result is) < 1223038582 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ehird < 1223038624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1223038631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what will memcpy() do on size = 0 < 1223038640 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure, it might be undefined < 1223038646 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it isn't, almost certainly nothing < 1223038677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I can't find any mention in any man page about the behaviour at least < 1223038695 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no mention = undefined < 1223038697 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try looking at the C standard? < 1223038701 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523, wasn't it he that made the bloated brainfuck based lang without support for nested loops? < 1223038704 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, yes, no mention = undefined < 1223038705 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was interesting, actually < 1223038726 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you don't need nested loops for TCness, one loop + if is enough < 1223038750 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... come to think of it, BF is probably Turing-complete with only two levels of nested [] < 1223038798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION fixes that code
< 1223038931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, C99 makes no mention of it either < 1223038953 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no mention = undefined, it's a general rule in that standard < 1223038972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The memcpy function copies n characters from the object pointed to by s2 into the < 1223038972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :object pointed to by s1. If copying takes place between objects that overlap, the behavior < 1223038972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is undefined. < 1223038974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is all < 1223038991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, however for n = 0 that should mean "copies 0 bytes" < 1223039002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not sure if that counts as "no mention" < 1223039359 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster < 1223039362 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're not sure < 1223039363 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not mentioned < 1223039365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's undefined < 1223039385 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. < 1223039388 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine he still has me on ignore. < 1223039400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, depends on how you interpret 7.21.2.1.2 < 1223039412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was what I quoted above < 1223039417 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in which numbering scheme? ISO's or ANSI's? < 1223039419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if you're not sure, or you think it's ambiguous, and it's not mentioned, it's undefined. < 1223039421 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :end < 1223039459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the section number in the pdf + paragraph number. File says "ISO/IEC 9899:TC3" < 1223039470 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok, ISO numbering scheme < 1223039488 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C standardisation is a bit stupid, as ANSI and ISO both put out identical standards except they numbered the sections differently < 1223039494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh < 1223039496 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes it very hard to cite part of the standard correctly... < 1223039542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, this was the most uptodate version of the standard I could get hold of. I think it has some spelling corrections and similiar. Considering it is dated 2007 Sep 7. < 1223039561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1223039571 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interestingly, the ones you get hold of are newer than the official published versions < 1223039582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm? I think I found it using google < 1223039590 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to some crazy ISO copyright stuff, the official standards cost money and aren't legally online anywhere < 1223039591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a pain to find what seemed to be the right version < 1223039594 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but all the drafts are published < 1223039594 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and open < 1223039602 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus you most likely found the newest drafy < 1223039603 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*draft < 1223039613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it was from ISO or IEEE or IEC website iirc < 1223039617 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1223039621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe open-std or whatever < 1223039623 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the working group publishing them there < 1223039634 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9899:TC3 is the third correction to C99, if I remember correctly < 1223039641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes I think so < 1223039648 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which will be incorporated into the next version of C if they ever put one out < 1223039686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, however as far as I can tell compiler vendors such as GNU and Intel, seem to refer to last such correction version < 1223039706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure I saw references to that in both cases < 1223039728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haaaaaaaate IEEE and ISO and all closed standards organizations < 1223039729 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffff < 1223039734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, agreed < 1223039740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :standards should be open < 1223039747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the point of a standard < 1223039767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cant even get the fucking ISO date format standard without paying like $100 < 1223039770 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's bullcrap. < 1223039779 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I share in your anger, both of you < 1223039881 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1223039882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err is stddef.h C89, C99 or POSIX? < 1223039882 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iso dates < 1223039885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually kinda suck: < 1223039892 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2008-W40-5 < 1223039893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :W = week number. < 1223039894 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously. < 1223039896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the christ. < 1223039914 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: headers really need manpages... < 1223039919 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: can't remember off the top of my head < 1223039929 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1223039931 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what ISO idiot < 1223039936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :decied that 'T' was a good separator < 1223039938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it got one here, but it doesn't say where it comes from < 1223039949 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T just makes it impossible to make out the day from the time < 1223039982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2008-W40-5 <-- Y10K.... < 1223039999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you want to avoid months, just use "day of year" or something < 1223040001 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, ISO 8601 doesn't support more than 4 digits to a year. < 1223040015 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But the example I pasted: valid iso 8601 date < 1223040016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though both week and day of year seriously fuck up on leap years < 1223040020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However < 1223040027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so month is pretty sane < 1223040028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't give a shit about the Y10K problem. < 1223040041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, heh ok < 1223040043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too far off < 1223040043 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's maybe not a problem when referring to now < 1223040051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we won't ever need more than 640 KB RAM either < 1223040053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, software from the 1970s should be made to work in 2000. < 1223040055 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Y10K is certainly a problem when referring to things that will happen in the far future < 1223040059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2038 is a reasonable problem) < 1223040062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1223040071 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think about how far Y10K is away < 1223040075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and think about in history < 1223040078 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the progression of technology < 1223040081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if your lifespan was 10000 years? < 1223040081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also moore's law < 1223040081 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very near on geological scales < 1223040085 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and...y10k is bullshit < 1223040085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then would you worry? < 1223040092 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, half the date formats I see have a Y1BC problem < 1223040093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, but it's not. < 1223040107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, Y1BC? < 1223040108 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and dates BC are certainly within the scope of things that people might want to refer to < 1223040110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1223040110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1223040118 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1223040122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean 0/1 problem < 1223040123 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1223040126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is plain messy < 1223040127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i think that's a new kind of fallacy < 1223040145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You don't think X? Well, what about ? Would you think X then?" < 1223040181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it is a philosophical construct for exploring your mind or something < 1223040182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1223040187 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Deeeeeep. < 1223040191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not just that, try writing, say 15 March 4 BC in ISO format < 1223040199 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there isn't an obvious way to do it < 1223040202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION considers making all his programs test for >= Y10K
< 1223040205 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, 0/1 is messy too < 1223040209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, Well, the calender changed since then < 1223040209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soo < 1223040215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what calender < 1223040215 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if so, print "Why the fuck are you using this outdated piece of shit, seriously, it's thousands of years old!" < 1223040216 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: also test for more than 30 days in September < 1223040220 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"8 thousand or so years old!" < 1223040222 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Christ!" < 1223040230 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hmm... the one they were using at the time, so Julian, I reckon < 1223040244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about other cultures? < 1223040256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why so centered on Europe? < 1223040259 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there was a big row at Wikipedia about autoformatting dates, because they claimed that reformatting a date implies a different calendar < 1223040260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about China? < 1223040269 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well the date I used was significant in Roman history if I have my dates right < 1223040284 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and taking the format in China would make more sense if I had used a Chinese date format to start with < 1223040288 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, I agree with you < 1223040331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, + they didn't use leapyears for a long time, so you would have to consider that too < 1223040340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1223040350 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back then they definitely used leapyears < 1223040354 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 1 every 4 years < 1223040358 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no corrections for centuries < 1223040365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah right. < 1223040372 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this explains why the extra day was added to February < 1223040378 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because for ages it was the last month of the year < 1223040392 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure why or when new year moved from March 1 to January 1 < 1223040397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway considering when a date more than maybe 100-200 years old actually *was* is just too painful < 1223040412 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why proleptic Gregorian was invented, I think < 1223040415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what weekday was it for example? < 1223040426 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the current calendar, but projected backwards through time < 1223040429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which as far as I understand it, you need for ISO format < 1223040430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1223040435 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you don't mean 15 March 44 BC? < 1223040437 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, probably < 1223040441 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, that was it < 1223040451 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew there was something wrong with it, just wasn't sure what... < 1223040471 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 15 March itself is enough of a clue there :) < 1223040478 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1223040479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it would have been different, iirc the romans moved the point of their new year once in their history at least. No idea when that was < 1223040485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere < 1223040514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could have been earlier or later < 1223040517 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm not entirely sure why or when new year moved from March 1 to January 1 < 1223040529 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its quite odd < 1223040533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah thanks, must have missed that line < 1223040535 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldnt the start of the year be the start of a season, really < 1223040540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think I heard the reason < 1223040549 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean... < 1223040554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :year starting in december would make sense < 1223040560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something about having time to prepare for wars after elections < 1223040562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1223040574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why December? that is the middle of the winter < 1223040579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no not the middle < 1223040582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but well in it < 1223040589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :far from the start of the season < 1223040605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1223040612 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what are the swedish seasons < 1223040620 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, i forgot to think < 1223040625 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that other countries had different seasons :-P < 1223040651 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: what about it? < 1223040654 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: winter solstice < 1223040659 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wat < 1223040663 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, mostly the northern hemisphere has one set, the southern hemisphere has the opposite, and places near the equator are weird < 1223040663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, spring (vår), summer (sommar), autumn (höst), winter (vinter) < 1223040668 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are lots of exceptions < 1223040669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what did you mean? < 1223040673 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's logical to start on a solstice or equinox < 1223040679 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: same months, then, ok, it's probably my fault < 1223040679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes < 1223040682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its early < 1223040683 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 119 seconds. < 1223040685 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not bad! < 1223040688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well months are mostly the same too < 1223040693 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what months are in winter this hemisphere... < 1223040697 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was thinking it started in december < 1223040700 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is tired, confused, bla
< 1223040705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, depends on how far north you are < 1223040711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nods
< 1223040730 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, i think, explains why start of a season is a crap year start point < 1223040731 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-p < 1223040746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you define winter based on mean temperature. Which iirc is the the basis for the official definitions used in Sweden < 1223040769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like Spring when mean temperature have been over x degrees for at least y days in a row < 1223040776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't know exact values < 1223040803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so even if it get colder just a few days later, it is still spring then) < 1223040808 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :winter here starts in december < 1223040811 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not december 1 though obviously < 1223040814 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the UK they have a whole television series dedicated to trying to determine when Spring starts by watching the behaviour of the wildlife < 1223040830 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: haha, i haven't heard of that < 1223040836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well the temperature for winter usually happens in middle of November or earlier < 1223040848 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with people sending in evidence from over the country < 1223040854 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well its october right now, and i'm freezing :-) < 1223040854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here that is < 1223040855 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although mostly it's just an excuse to show cute pictures of baby foxes and such < 1223040858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so am I < 1223040866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still just autumn iirc < 1223040873 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea < 1223040886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_(season)#Definition_of_spring < 1223040898 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'm surprised you missed it, they generally advertise it furiously in the weather programs on the BBC during March < 1223040910 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i don't generally watch all that much tv < 1223040915 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1223040918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf, "Summer" have a "popular culture" section < 1223040920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's insane < 1223040920 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mostly watch it for the theme music < 1223040921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1223040932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has* < 1223040933 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you still haven't named it, i may have heard of it in the back of my mind :-) < 1223040935 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but forgotten about it < 1223040938 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: everything on Wikipedia has a popular culture section or will have one eventually, it's one of the Rules of the Internet < 1223040944 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Springwatch < 1223040951 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh, that thing < 1223040961 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i knew of it but forgotten < 1223040974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it is easy in Sweden, since it is officially defined based on mean temperature < 1223040984 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is that the official story though, it's trying to figure out the start of spring? < 1223040986 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahah < 1223040988 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i vaguely recall an xkcd on that < 1223040991 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is the official story < 1223040993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"SMHI definierar vår som när dygnsmedeltemperaturen är stigande och över noll grader i minst sju dagar." < 1223040998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :translation shortly < 1223041009 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as I said it's mostly an excuse to show cute wildlife pictures < 1223041117 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The first month of the year continued to be Ianuarius, as it had been since 153 BC." from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar < 1223041122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SMHI (Swedish Met office basically) defines spring as: when the mean temperature of the full-24 hour period (don't know English word, in Swedish dag indicates the 12 hours the sun is up, but dygn the full 24 hours) is increasing and is over 0 degrees for at least 7 days in a row < 1223041141 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok, so it was a pretty old change < 1223041142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would really like to know the name for 24 hour period in English, I assume there is one < 1223041155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming day is just the 12 "non-night" hours < 1223041167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it isn't then what is the name for just that part < 1223041172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ^ < 1223041183 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they're both called "day" < 1223041185 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is really confusing < 1223041192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how confusing indeed < 1223041192 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :occasionally you have to say which you mean < 1223041233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway is there no such easy definition of spring in UK? < 1223041246 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I don't think so < 1223041255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are similar ones for the other seasons < 1223041269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :day is 24 hours to me < 1223041276 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but "today" means: < 1223041284 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's day, -> this day < 1223041288 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's night, -> following day < 1223041293 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where day in that definition means 12 hours) < 1223041302 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's only confusing if you think about it. < 1223041322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah the summer definition is when it is over 10 degrees for 7 days in a row < 1223041330 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://xkcd.com/446/ was it < 1223041336 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 degrees, lol < 1223041344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you poor cold swedes :} < 1223041348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, in north sweden that is reasonable < 1223041368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however where I live it is mostly 18-25 or so during the summer holidays < 1223041378 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's recently dipped below 10 C here < 1223041379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least in July and August < 1223041386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, did that a few weeks ago here < 1223041401 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe a couple weeks < 1223041482 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 today, says yr.no < 1223041494 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea < 1223041516 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone write an esolang for composing music (kind of an anti-fuge, i guess) < 1223041517 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1223041524 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set some base characteristics about music < 1223041524 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1223041532 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :divide it into seperate parts for people < 1223041539 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we each write a program < 1223041542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then they're stuck together < 1223041542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what is the Norwegian equivalent for SHMI btw? < 1223041546 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is #esoteric's anthem < 1223041553 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does SHMI stand for < 1223041559 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1223041563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Sveriges meteorologiska och hydrologiska institut" < 1223041580 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Meteorologisk institutt" in norway too < 1223041605 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that website is from them btw) < 1223041629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to Swedish wikipedia, they also do oceanography stuff < 1223041639 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although they compete with Storm Weather Center < 1223041688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, btw how is "yr.no" an abbreviation for "Meteorologisk institutt"..? I don't get it < 1223041711 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not their main website < 1223041720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why yr.no though.. < 1223041723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a site they operate together with NRK < 1223041739 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yr = er, wait a second < 1223041765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NRK is like SVT + SR right? < 1223041776 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"drizzle", i think < 1223041777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or for the UK ppl here: Like BBC) < 1223041783 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah < 1223041812 0 :moozilla!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1223041814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "drizzle"? What is the Norwegian word for that? < 1223041820 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"yr" :D < 1223041825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1223041826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1223041851 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... there must be even more drizzle in Norway than there is in the UK for it to have a short name like that < 1223041852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read that as abbreviation... so I thought it was the y part only < 1223041871 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1223041873 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yr = drizzle < 1223041880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a waste of a two letter word < 1223041881 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't know if there's a backronym for it < 1223041904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, intersting the Swedish word "yr" means vertigo < 1223041918 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's "�r" in norwegian < 1223041923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I suggest ais523 doesn't try to read something into *that* < 1223041925 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the adjective < 1223041931 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: heh < 1223041954 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually "yr" also has another meaning which is slightly close < 1223041984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm yrsel would be the noun vertigo I think. < 1223042002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yr is indeed adjective in Swedish too < 1223042009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also was that ör btw? < 1223042012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vertigo...ry? < 1223042016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is vertigo an adjective < 1223042017 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: o with slash < 1223042057 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"yr" also means "wild" < 1223042061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I think "ör" in Swedish have something to do with fishing, though I may very well be confusing it with some similar word. Fishing never really interested me < 1223042075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah yes you can be "yr av glädje" in Swedish as well < 1223042095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not same yr as "yr av att stå i toppen på ett torn och titta ned" < 1223042129 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cannot find "�r" in swedish wiktionary < 1223042140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, may be dialect then < 1223042171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swedish wikipedia says it is a place name < 1223042172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1223042177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that too < 1223042250 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually there's a norwegian fish known as "uer", pronounced "ur" in my dialect at least < 1223042251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm apperently I was wrong, it is an old word, still found in placenames: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svenska_ortnamns%C3%A4ndelser#-.C3.B6r < 1223042261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that may in fact be öring? < 1223042263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1223042264 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, "�rret" = "trout" < 1223042275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trout, no clue what that is in Swedish < 1223042281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably know the Swedish word < 1223042288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't know which one it actually is < 1223042288 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's �ring < 1223042294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh < 1223042316 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1223042327 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"salmon trout" < 1223042372 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently there are several "trouts" < 1223042388 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trout < 1223042406 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, a favorite fish for slapping people with < 1223042409 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's not exactly an endangered specie < 1223042413 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*species < 1223042418 0 :oklocod!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oklopol < 1223042427 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't want a trout vs. cod joke. < 1223042429 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: trying to be less fishy? < 1223042449 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1223042456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trout vs. cod? < 1223042457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1223042458 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't use that joke forever < 1223042458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1223042472 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"uer" = "redfish" in english i believe < 1223042474 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well aren't they like fisherizers? < 1223042482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION googles fisherizers
< 1223042490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one hit < 1223042498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. Lists (PondTasksRemaining) - View All Lists Edit List Item Web ... < 1223042504 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh what the heck < 1223042529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, doesn't seem related < 1223042542 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not quite sure < 1223042565 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uer = "Sebastes marinus" < 1223042571 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fisherizers are fish < 1223042579 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thinking going via latin is the safest way of getting the terms correct < 1223042600 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :�ring = "Salmo Trutta" < 1223042637 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, "rose fish" the first < 1223042664 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we would probably have all these cool fish names if the normans didn't invade :( < 1223042720 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that redfish article is messed up < 1223042789 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some vandalism < 1223043275 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ssssss < 1223043294 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION watches in horror as ehird turns into a snake
< 1223043300 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSSSSSSSSSSsssssssssssss!!! < 1223043303 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSSSsssssssssssSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!! < 1223043308 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION spits poison at oerjan
< 1223043309 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS < 1223043322 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note to self: stop encouraging ehird :D < 1223043326 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION decides poison is too slow-acting
< 1223043332 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gobbles up oerjan
< 1223043335 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gulp* < 1223043337 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS < 1223043352 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION digs himself out ---|)
< 1223043366 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION eats his own stomach to stop oerjan
< 1223043367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS < 1223043401 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION watches in horror as ehird turns into a singularity by eating himself
< 1223043415 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MWAHAHAH- I mean, SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS < 1223043495 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION buys an antidote on ebay
< 1223043517 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fortunately this is very slow poison < 1223043543 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cuts ethernet cable
< 1223043546 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:D < 1223043547 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSSSSSSSSS < 1223043574 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION curses his landlady for not getting the wireless fixed
< 1223043715 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't tell me i have to do something drastic like walking outside to a pharmacy < 1223043750 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just buy them on the way to the bus < 1223043773 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no shops between here and the bus stop < 1223043782 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how can you walk outside < 1223043785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've eaten you < 1223043791 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know one of your things is you need to hurry to get into the bus in time? < 1223043791 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1223043793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean... < 1223043795 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSSSSSSSSSSSSsssssssssssSSSSSS < 1223043856 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you mean, i don't log off until i have to leave. that's different. < 1223043891 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but you need to get in the bus. the hurrying isn't the point i guess. < 1223043919 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i'm _really_ in a hurry for a given bus i usually wait until the next bus < 1223043953 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually because i didn't manage to tear myself off the computer < 1223043955 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you still need to get in the bus :P it's your thing < 1223043966 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok ok < 1223043975 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a certain value of "need" < 1223044029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there _used_ to be a grocery shop next to the bus stop, but they tore it down and built a home for the elderly < 1223044041 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Stop talking. I have eaten you. < 1223044054 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1223044062 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and without my cell phone too < 1223044064 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: okay, perhaps your thing is just mentioning the bus occasionally? it's just that's a bit more boring. < 1223044128 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION resigns to being digested
< 1223044172 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gives oerjan a laptop
< 1223044187 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go hack in to the firewall mainframe IP with visual basic. < 1223044194 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can route the DLL past my stomach walls. < 1223044197 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSSSSSSSSSSssssssss < 1223044217 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :visual basic? i think i prefer death. < 1223044221 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ducks
< 1223044235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION watches his stomach acids nibble at oerjan's fingers
< 1223044246 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i don't think i ever claimed to be that kind of hacker < 1223044257 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or much of any kind of hacker, really < 1223044268 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah. < 1223044273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION opens the door to his stomach.
< 1223044281 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ther's the boring way out. < 1223044283 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION rolls out
< 1223044292 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION figurse out what to do with his singularity.
< 1223044296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1223044297 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eat it! < 1223044298 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION eats it
< 1223044303 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mm. < 1223044305 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinitely wholesome. < 1223044309 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LHC eat your heart out < 1223044368 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if our society were based on magic, the LHC might actually have _had_ a heart < 1223044419 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably been an acronym for something else < 1223044434 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Living Hell Converter or something < 1223044751 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So. < 1223044786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Thunderstorm" < 1223044916 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Legendary Hat Collector < 1223044978 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's not much more than it was before it was what it now is it now? < 1223045022 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION refuses to believe oklopol is trying to make sense
< 1223045072 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well what to refuse when you're being asked and if they think they already know then what can you do really i don't think anything much what do you think? < 1223045106 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't, definitely not what it thinks they are. < 1223045128 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :encyclopedia of algorithms, that's one sexy book < 1223045138 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like condensed sex < 1223045144 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only algorithms < 1223045410 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, you are perverted < 1223045416 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does bubble sorting make you hard? < 1223045465 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only merge sort i would imagine < 1223045483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe also heap sort < 1223045505 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like heap sort and mergesort better than quicksort at least < 1223045518 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but can't say i don't enjoy bubble sort as well < 1223045660 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about bogosorting? < 1223045663 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you into that? < 1223045670 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's okay, nothing to be ashamed about < 1223046491 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not particularlyy < 1223046513 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*particularly < 1223046521 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not that interested in sorting altogether < 1223046528 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those finns and their double vowels < 1223046764 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :m��se < 1223046897 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today on the "Paths that make me RAGE" channel: < 1223046900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.5/lib/python2.5/site-packages/ < 1223048344 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7650103.stm < 1223048390 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Medicine: Dan Ariely for demonstrating that expensive fake medicine is more effective than cheap fake medicine." < 1223048410 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xDDDDD < 1223050034 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-112-49-85.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1223050953 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-4-175.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1223051313 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... anyone here know any lazy imperative languages? < 1223051329 0 :Hiato!n=Hiato@dsl-245-40-86.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1223051336 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Hiato < 1223051356 0 :Hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey ais523 < 1223051372 0 :Hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's cooking? < 1223051372 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is idling and saying hi to people in the hope of starting a conversation
< 1223051389 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and working on an insane project for University which many would consider esolang-related < 1223051459 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1223051470 0 :Hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite < 1223051487 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why I asked if anyone knew of any lazy imperative languages earlier < 1223051502 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think those would be esoteric by definition < 1223051518 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there's one involved in my University project < 1223051521 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sane laziness requires purity, imperativeness is the opposite of purity < 1223051533 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it acts like an eager language really < 1223051553 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're implementing it by compiling into a functional lanugage < 1223051562 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with variables stored in what is similar to a State monad < 1223051578 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :commands happen eagerly due to the monad-chains, it's just expressions that are lazy < 1223051598 0 :LinuS!n=LinuS@net-93-145-204-17.t2.dsl.vodafone.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1223051613 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic so a language with strict distinction betwen commands and expressions might work < 1223051630 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka haskell, really :D < 1223051669 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone said haskell is the world's finest imperative language < 1223051684 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the language reminds me of a language which is Haskell really < 1223051688 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just disguised as Algol < 1223051738 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, my experiences with it, and other experiences with brainfuck, convince me that reading the value of a variable is not as fundamental an operation as was first thought < 1223051742 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simon Peyton-Jones, apparently < 1223051752 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in brainfuck, reading the value of a variable sets it to 0, in most cases < 1223051761 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus you have to be clever to duplicate a variable's value < 1223051775 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardware compilation has the same problem, but with functions < 1223051790 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you call a function more than once, you need some way to return the result to the right physical location < 1223051805 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you call a function more than once simultaneously, you need two physical copies of the function < 1223051886 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does all this sound esoteric enough for this channel? < 1223051896 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1223051921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaaaaaaaaaafssfggjtykuyiliuio;;;opp;p;pp;p;p;;p;p;ikkhbnfcccdregrjukuyllikjujugtfrdeddfrghhhjjhugyfgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgddgdgdgdgdgdgddddd < 1223051922 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ discuss < 1223051952 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i thought you were 13, not 3 < 1223051965 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh, that 1 was a typo < 1223051970 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 year olds can't type very well < 1223051977 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :butt < 1223051980 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1223052003 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those french and their double consonants < 1223052091 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is actually remarkably little keyboard repetition in that < 1223052116 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly at the ends < 1223052171 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you have failed to provide a semantics for your language < 1223052192 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know the semantics or the syntax of the language in question yet < 1223052194 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the paradigm < 1223052199 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was speaking to ehird :D < 1223052204 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I guessed < 1223052215 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what's the name for the paradigm VHDL uses? < 1223052219 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember < 1223052222 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VHDLy < 1223052311 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brrrrrrrrrrr < 1223052314 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freeeeeeeeeeeezing < 1223052318 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hardware description languages" is in the category list < 1223052695 0 :Hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1223054325 0 :jix!n=jix@lbck-4dbaea4d.pool.einsundeins.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1223054386 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf68ca.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1223054432 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders what a fully functional hardware description language would be like
< 1223054591 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I am fully functional. < 1223054596 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And trained in many techniques. < 1223054602 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1223054606 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, what about the Lisp machines? < 1223054609 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you a hardware description language? < 1223054618 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, Lisp machines are interesting < 1223054625 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're functional hardware interpreters, though < 1223054637 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hurray, I don't know the difference! :D < 1223054637 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering if it's possible to /compile/ a functional program into hardware < 1223054645 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1223054654 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that's what Lisp machines did. < 1223054662 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, they run Lisp nativelt < 1223054663 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*natively < 1223054668 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an interpreter, not a compiler < 1223054677 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardware compilation produces a piece of hardware that only runs one program < 1223054712 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't the very fact of writing the program on a lisp machine kinda compiling it? < 1223054719 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like writing machine code on a usual computer < 1223054735 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, a Lisp machine has lisp as its machine code < 1223054760 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1223054908 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wrong. < 1223054913 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about what? < 1223054915 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp machines? < 1223054922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly they were capable of running more than one program < 1223054922 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'a lisp machine has lisp as its machine code' < 1223054932 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes them interps < 1223054953 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even in imperative languages, an x86 processor (for instance) is an interpreter for x86 machine language < 1223054970 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardware compilation goes a step further, you start with a program and end up with a piece of hardware which runs only that program < 1223055012 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't it more like a piece of code on the hardware? < 1223055028 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_: what, Lisp machines, x86, or hardware compilation? < 1223055066 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm getting confused < 1223055075 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should go back to watching this Batman reveiw < 1223055595 0 :Mony!n=AssHole@AToulouse-258-1-102-229.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1223055687 0 :Mony!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plop < 1223055720 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hulo tharn french people < 1223056142 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r" % (math.exp(math.pi)**1j)) < 1223056480 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1223057496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm this computer's inside really makes no sense... < 1223057591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that main connector thing for the mobo, huge unruly thing normally even. But here the connector is mounted such that the cable is resting against the cpu heatsink to reach the contact. there is no other way < 1223057600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf did whoever built this computer think? < 1223057666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(constrast with the dell close to it, while it's inside is pretty strange, it is all very organised, and easy to service < 1223058496 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1223059237 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Re fungot's language model, I haven't bothered to update it at all with new logs yet. < 1223059238 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: never heard of it before and after it now < 1223059540 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-28-233.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1223059687 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: what, you have anterograde amnesia? how awful! < 1223059688 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i'm starting to think there's no way it could conceivably be interpreted as ellipsis for the internal macro, which *is* a function. < 1223059873 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a person who can only remember the future would rock < 1223059901 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc Merlin did that in some legends or books < 1223059954 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm < 1223059966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you could remember your teachings, you would have to have been taught some time in the future < 1223059967 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT < 1223059972 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll immediately forget your teaching as soon as you recieve it < 1223059980 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so: you need to be taught in your craft on your deathbed < 1223060011 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for added weirdness, also age backwards < 1223060038 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@k-133.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1223060283 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1223060284 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1223060360 0 :psygnisfive!i=82f5c439@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f3a7ce0c53795892 JOIN :#esoteric < 1223060363 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm lovely < 1223060380 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys i discovered something interesting about english syntax/semantics that might be interesting in an esolang :o < 1223060392 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's insane? < 1223060405 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1223060406 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we all knew that already! < 1223060422 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english has disjunction scope quantifiers. :o < 1223060425 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1223060427 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quantifiers < 1223060428 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indicators < 1223060442 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[citation needed] < 1223060458 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider: < 1223060475 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :John is looking for a fedora or a bowler < 1223060478 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this could mean either < 1223060509 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :John is looking for some hat X | (X is-a fedora) or (X is-a bowler) < 1223060516 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it could mean < 1223060532 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fedoras are bettar < 1223060542 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(John is looking for some hat X | X is-a fedora) or (John is looking for some hat X | X is-a bowler) < 1223060554 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the difference?' < 1223060567 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difference is that in the first one < 1223060572 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :john is just looking for a hat < 1223060578 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the hat can be a fedora < 1223060581 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right < 1223060582 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it can be a bowler < 1223060585 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he'd be happy with either < 1223060590 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he just needs one or the other < 1223060593 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the SECONd however < 1223060600 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he wants a specific kind of hat < 1223060605 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only one kind of hat < 1223060608 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the speaker doesn't know which < 1223060610 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1223060613 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1223060622 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the disjunction has two different scopes < 1223060632 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in one it has scope over the lower predication < 1223060640 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fedora(x) | bowler(x) < 1223060655 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while in th other it has scope over the whole statement < 1223060680 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(seeks(John, x) & fedora(x)) | (seeks(John, x) & bowler(x)) < 1223060710 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seeks(John, x) & (fedora(x) | bowler(x)) < 1223060723 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now consider what happens when we introduce "either" < 1223060730 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :John is looking for either a fedora or a bowler < 1223060736 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here we still have both potential readings < 1223060754 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"John is looking for either a fedora or a bowler and he doesn't care which" < 1223060759 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"John is looking for either a fedora or a bowler and I know know which" < 1223060761 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but but but! < 1223060770 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and and and and < 1223060773 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either John is looking for a fedora or a bowler < 1223060780 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this ONLY has the higher scope reading! < 1223060792 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Either John is looking for a fedora or a bowler, and he doesn't care which" == BAD < 1223060802 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1223060803 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Either John is looking for a fedora or a bowler and I don't remember which" == FINE < 1223060825 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so "either" can be used to force higher scope readings by placing it further left in the structure of the sentence < 1223060827 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1223060834 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually quite an interesting scoping ambiguity < 1223060840 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1223060842 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it totally is < 1223060852 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be more ambiguity in programming languages < 1223060853 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres lots of crazy scope stuff like that in languages < 1223060869 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should more ambiguity with cool ambiguity resolution techniques < 1223060875 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cise is really the only language i can think of where there's any ambiguity < 1223060889 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need a language where you have a disjunctive or, but you also have an or-scope indicator < 1223060904 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: lexing Cyclexa < 1223060914 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has precedence rules to resolve the ambiguity < 1223060937 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres also some cool scope stuff regarding question words < 1223060948 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: precedence rules aren't really distinct from just unambiguous parsing < 1223060949 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, in english < 1223060960 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in cise, you may need to reparse at runtime, if types change < 1223060965 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there's more than one way to tokenise things < 1223060965 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: perl has some ambiguity in its syntax afair < 1223060970 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's done statically < 1223060975 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"what did john buy" has the reading "for what x's, john bought x" < 1223060979 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Cyclexa, anyway < 1223060992 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Perl there's more than one way to interpret some of the tokens < 1223060999 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which is chosen can vary at BEGIN-time < 1223061012 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :begin-time? < 1223061015 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the result that parsing Perl in finite time is impossible < 1223061018 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know shit about perl < 1223061020 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "who bought a hat" has the reading "for what people x, x bought a hat" < 1223061027 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: yes < 1223061028 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what if you have two wh-phrases? < 1223061039 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you can set code that runs before the rest of the code is parsed < 1223061043 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"who bought what" reads as "for what x and what y, x bought y" < 1223061066 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so NORMALLY if you want scope over the sentence, you raise the WH phrase to the top/beginning of the sentence < 1223061081 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with two or more WH phrases, one has to remain low, and it STILL gets scope < 1223061113 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hungarian, bulgarian, and serbocroatian, on the other hand, REQUIRE that you raise the WH phrases to get scope with them < 1223061114 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: who bought, and what? < 1223061120 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i think it's just convention, because you *can* do "you bought what?" it's just that has quite a strongly emphasizing connotation on the what < 1223061126 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1223061129 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"who bought, and what" is completely ungrammatical, oerjan :p < 1223061143 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: no it isn't < 1223061144 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: "you bought what?" is actually not g enerally a question < 1223061144 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1223061159 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes it is. < 1223061167 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you're not just asking what the person bought < 1223061172 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're asking for CONFIRMATION of what you heard < 1223061189 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you bought WHAT? a COCKRING? no!" < 1223061207 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: it's still a question < 1223061210 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1223061218 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its a different kind of question < 1223061221 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :called an echo question < 1223061245 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you're not asking for new information but rather asking for a repetition of the phrase targeted by the WH replacement < 1223061252 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's true. < 1223061281 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and similarly, you'd never ask "what did you buy?" when you want confirmation or repetition < 1223061283 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^echo what? < 1223061283 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? what? < 1223061284 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't find this that interesting < 1223061284 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd sound deaf < 1223061288 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I bought a hat!" < 1223061293 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What did you buy?" < 1223061297 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you could, actually < 1223061301 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd just need special intonation < 1223061306 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1223061316 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its not normal question intonation < 1223061326 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its the same intonaiton on "what" in both echo questions < 1223061327 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1223061335 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats not what i meant to talk about :p < 1223061343 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1223061354 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are interesting cases in english where scope can be pulled from a REALLY deeply embedded element < 1223061355 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider: < 1223061424 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will consider, although briefly < 1223061430 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gumme a sec :p < 1223061439 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forgot the examples < 1223061451 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only had time to read like 20 pages yesterday, so my quota for today is enough to keep me awake all night < 1223061468 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do not consider, lest ye be considered < 1223061470 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't want to slip from my 500p/week minimum < 1223061506 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'ok consider: < 1223061522 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*what* does John think [mary bought t] < 1223061528 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where t indicates what *what* targets < 1223061540 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. for what X, John thinks [mary bought x] < 1223061557 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now consider: < 1223061577 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: John thinks [*what* mary bought t] < 1223061582 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but on the other hand: < 1223061589 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :John wonders [*what* mary bought t] < 1223061602 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: *what* does John wonder [Mary bought t] < 1223061629 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just normal nesting < 1223061639 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1223061642 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in english it makes sense right < 1223061643 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"what mary bought" there is a question embedded < 1223061650 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is! < 1223061654 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1223061661 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now check this out from chinese: < 1223061665 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm probably missing your point < 1223061668 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will < 1223061673 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you need to see the chinese too ;) < 1223061680 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1223061682 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okily doc < 1223061692 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :keep in mind, chinese does NOT have any movement, so all the *what* phrases are in their original positions < 1223061694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all martian to me < 1223061698 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glossing the chinese: < 1223061730 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zhangsan thinks [Lisi bought *what*] == *what* does Zhangsan think Lisi bought *t* < 1223061748 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zhangsan wonders [Lisi bought *what*] == Zhangsan wonders [*what* Lisi bought *t*] < 1223061762 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lower clauses are IDENTICAL in chinese < 1223061767 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You and your linguistics. < 1223061773 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: that's not all that interesting < 1223061790 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the verb specifies whether or not the lower clause can be interpreted as a question or a statement clause < 1223061792 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :question particles just happen to be context-insensitive, and can jump multiple levels up < 1223061794 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1223061799 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1223061801 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus BECAUSE the verb specifies this < 1223061806 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there IS a WH-phrase in the lower clause < 1223061821 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the VERB decides whether or not the sentence AS A WHOLE is a question, or a statement. < 1223061836 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually quite an interesting type theoretical issue < 1223061859 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simply because the verb specifies only one kind of clausal complement, and if there's a WH-phrase in that clausal complement, you can only interpret it one what, given the verb < 1223061860 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its funky < 1223061860 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1223061862 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how do you ask in chinese what someone is wondering about? :D < 1223061872 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X wonders what < 1223061875 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wonder what < 1223061875 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1223061896 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's a *what* that targets the ENTIRE clausal complement < 1223061900 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not something INSIDE the clausal complement < 1223061931 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's a different issue how you ask what someone is wondering someone else bought < 1223061936 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1223061948 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i failed to construct that < 1223061949 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres actually all sorts of really weird stuff that goes on with WH phrases < 1223061959 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yes you did < 1223061990 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you did so for precisely the same reasons we were just talking about :) < 1223061994 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder takes a question phrase < 1223062005 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a question clausal complement < 1223062017 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: how do you say that? < 1223062022 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so that what, as in "ask *what* someone is wondering someone else bought" is a violation < 1223062024 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not exactly something you ever need to ask < 1223062025 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, just look: < 1223062042 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask [*what* someone is wondering [someone else bought *t*]] < 1223062048 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a violation as we pointed out earlier! :) < 1223062071 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exact same violation as "*what* does john wonder [Mary bought *t*]" < 1223062072 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you gotta be able to ask that somehow < 1223062081 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you can ask, but periphrastically < 1223062091 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can do it with two questions intermingled < 1223062091 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and actually i think that's perfect english < 1223062097 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: tru < 1223062102 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, its not perfect english :p < 1223062105 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its HORRIBLE english < 1223062117 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: give me a better construction for it, will you? < 1223062119 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're not native, you don't have these intuitions about english < 1223062122 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you wondering whether i bought < 1223062127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is not horrible english psygnisfive < 1223062130 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :horrible oerjan < 1223062133 0 :LinuS!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1223062135 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :absolutely horrible < 1223062145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan's is horrible yes < 1223062146 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but semantically meaningful < 1223062151 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1223062154 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats not the point oerjan < 1223062159 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :semantically we can understand a lot of stuff < 1223062169 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: could you show me how to construct it better? < 1223062172 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats because we have a pragmatics system that can "make it work" < 1223062177 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: its tricky to do in english < 1223062179 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be like.. < 1223062212 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the thing such that john wonders i mary bought that thing < 1223062217 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonders if** < 1223062240 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah you used like a variable there < 1223062245 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1223062250 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's better, i do admit that < 1223062255 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres no WH-raising construction in english that lets you get that reading tho < 1223062263 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thats just part of english syntax < 1223062263 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i disagree on not having an intuition about english. < 1223062274 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you're wrong ;) < 1223062297 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no psygnisfive < 1223062298 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hes not < 1223062299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1223062301 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my intuition has owned many natives. < 1223062306 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might have some intuition, yes ok. but i'd question it. < 1223062311 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1223062312 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :being native is not a magical way to know a language perfectly < 1223062317 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all this linguistics is something up with which i will not put < 1223062330 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interestingly, some languages DO let you say "what does john wonder mary bought" < 1223062332 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1223062344 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mitä john miettii maryn ostaneen < 1223062345 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finnish < 1223062354 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :john miettii mitä mary osti < 1223062355 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mitä is what < 1223062356 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'What does John wonder Mary bought?' is fine english < 1223062367 0 :atrapado!n=mnh@217.168.0.245 JOIN :#esoteric < 1223062373 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: are you saying that linguists would not approve of "all this linguistics is something that i will not put up with"? < 1223062385 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: no its not, go ask some other people. < 1223062393 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: perish the thought :D < 1223062397 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: i think he was just making a complicated sentence for linguistic fun's sake < 1223062400 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: yes, because one person saying its not fine english without evidence against two people saying it's fine... < 1223062405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you evidently win < 1223062413 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: linguists wouldnt say that tho. < 1223062420 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh!!!!!!!! < 1223062422 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much evidence and arguments we're seeing here < 1223062425 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: unfortunately, ehird, there's actually been RESEARCH into this < 1223062437 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: researching doesn't change the fact that its fine english < 1223062440 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the RESEARCH shows that most english speakers do not accept that sentence. < 1223062447 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can stamp 'THIS IS CRAP ENGLISH' on a sentence all you want, and it does not make it so < 1223062447 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: they will however argue incessantly about how they don't say that ;D < 1223062452 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning that its NOT fine in english. < 1223062464 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no, they wont < 1223062468 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact < 1223062478 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most theories of syntax REQUIRE that such things are permitted < 1223062487 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol psygnisfive is proving oerjan's piont < 1223062488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1223062490 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*point < 1223062503 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i see what you meant there < 1223062507 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, we WILL argue that we dont say that :P < 1223062518 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1223062528 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because most people think we will. but they're confusing linguists with gradeschool english professors < 1223062543 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing < 1223062544 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1223062555 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linguists actually care about what SPEAKERS say, gradeschool english professors care what STRUNK AND WHITE say < 1223062584 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS CRAP IS ENGLISH. THIS IS ENGLISH CRAP. ENGLISH IS THIS CRAP. < 1223062599 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English: Is this crap? < 1223062599 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh thats another english thing < 1223062600 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1223062617 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"is" is the only main verb in american english that has sentential negation AFTER it. < 1223062622 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider: < 1223062629 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I run <> I do not run < 1223062635 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :butts < 1223062638 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_: butts < 1223062640 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I eat pizza <> I do not eat pizza < 1223062644 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc etc < 1223062646 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1223062651 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_: many butts? < 1223062657 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a student <> I am not a student < 1223062664 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting! < 1223062667 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: I butts <> I not butts < 1223062679 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :auxiliary verbs do similar stuff. < 1223062683 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: interestingness approved < 1223062688 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1223062706 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think we should have an esolang with movement and funky scope. < 1223062711 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well isn't that the way auxiliary verbs do it, and "is" is interesting because it does it *without* the subsentence < 1223062727 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, auxiliaries behave exactly like that < 1223062738 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"i will not pizza" < 1223062743 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pizzas
< 1223062747 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well thats not an auxiliary actually < 1223062751 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its slightly different < 1223062751 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but will wants an event, so... pizza would be converted to a verb < 1223062756 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah < 1223062760 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more precisely, the FIRST auxiliary in the sentence appears before sentential negation < 1223062760 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION remembers our discussion about gerunds
< 1223062763 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'LL PIZZA YOU < 1223062766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IF YOU DON'T SHUT UP < 1223062769 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless theres a MODAL verb, like will, can, might, etc. < 1223062770 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we now know that oklopol is programming < 1223062776 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what does "I am burning" mean? < 1223062780 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case the first non-modal auxiliary appears AFTER the sentential negation < 1223062785 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-20-51.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1223062790 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais: i means at the moment you're in the process of burning < 1223062791 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it* < 1223062806 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you really need that explained to you? come now. < 1223062811 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus < 1223062813 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats not a gerund < 1223062816 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats a progressive < 1223062822 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that you *are* the process of burning, although i'm not sure that can be literally true < 1223062834 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I don't think I am < 1223062838 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tho gerunds and progressives do share morphology in english. < 1223062841 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but am I on fire, or am I performing the action of burning < 1223062844 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: it's a gerund < 1223062848 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the speaker decides it < 1223062851 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it's not. < 1223062855 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gerund is a technical term. < 1223062858 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means something specific. < 1223062859 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually neither, but the sentence I gave is ambiguous 3 ways) < 1223062872 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most people learn it, but forget that it means what it means < 1223062880 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a gerund, wouldn't it mean "i am the act of burning" < 1223062881 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they confuse it with progressives. < 1223062890 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it could, i suppose < 1223062893 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, of course, is ambiguous still < 1223062894 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gerunds
< 1223062896 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: then it was a gerund. < 1223062899 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also psygnisfive < 1223062902 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was what the conversation was about < 1223062903 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :##linguistics exists < 1223062904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-p < 1223062913 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is what < 1223062918 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am thinking of burning this channel down < 1223062926 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also ehird: notice i dont care < 1223062933 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im talking about the esoteric properties of a language. < 1223062938 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence its appropriate for #esoteric. < 1223062942 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH NOW WHAT < 1223062950 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, yeah, oklopol < 1223062953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric is officially a channel about programming languages, not esoterica in general < 1223062956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH NOW WHAT < 1223062959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is not the first natlang discussion here today, either < 1223062963 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTHERS HAVE DISAGREED WITH YOU. < 1223062973 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: lets design a language with movement and weird scope stuff. :D < 1223062982 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: ChanServ agrees with me. < 1223062984 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1223062984 0 :ehird!n=ehird@eso-std.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1223062988 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conteric! < 1223062991 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Welcome to the esoteric programming channel!' < 1223063010 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is where you are programmed to become esoteric < 1223063016 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english is a language for programming other peoples minds to think what you want them to think < 1223063034 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IS NOT < 1223063035 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: psygnisfive sucks < 1223063040 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHAHAA < 1223063041 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TAKE THAT < 1223063046 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: psygnisfive wants to commit suicide right now < 1223063050 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and swallow. < 1223063066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION whacks ehird with a pizza platter ---\____
< 1223063069 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not you, since you're a horrible human being. < 1223063074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION eats pizza platter
< 1223063082 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol and slereah on the other hand.. < 1223063087 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol! < 1223063090 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets design this language < 1223063092 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::T < 1223063095 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :No route to host < 1223063096 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1223063104 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if "little death" is an orgasm, then i guess "small suicide" would be like masturbation < 1223063107 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can have that weird quantification stuff i was on about a few months ago too < 1223063112 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: deep < 1223063116 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahahahahahaha < 1223063166 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a perfect parallel but still :D < 1223063230 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess i should've made a pun, but that was a bit too far-fetched for me to be able to think of a way, without explicitly explaining the reference. < 1223063252 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, its just a non-analogy when an actual analogy would've been better < 1223063266 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :death : suicide !:: orgasm : masturbation < 1223063269 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1223063271 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was funny < 1223063274 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so shut up < 1223063281 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1223063289 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i guess it's not a perfect parallel < 1223063302 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is !:: a technical symbol? < 1223063302 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw guys < 1223063305 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but "self-induced orgasm" sounds a bit booky < 1223063305 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just want to say < 1223063306 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love you < 1223063314 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...booky? < 1223063319 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i can make shut up like !:: and you understand what i mean < 1223063321 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the fuck. < 1223063323 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no its not but still :D < 1223063336 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you understood it, did you not? < 1223063356 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: bookish perhaps? < 1223063391 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: no if you don't use the proper obscure technical terms how can it possibly be understandable? < 1223063396 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, that's what i meant, it's just i really tried to write "ish". < 1223063406 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1223063422 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noone else would understand the adhoc invention or extention or symbols like that < 1223063425 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except programs < 1223063431 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ESPECIALLY except esopeople < 1223063432 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1223063446 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<4 < 1223063452 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i invent symbols all the time when explaining stuff to ppl < 1223063472 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is, as you just said, that this is really the only place where i don't need to explain the symbols < 1223063480 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: what about when you're talking aloud? < 1223063501 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he doesn't talk aloud. < 1223063516 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that's right, he's finnish < 1223063520 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are always silent < 1223063527 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1223063537 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see? < 1223063541 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even now he tries not to talk < 1223063547 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1223063556 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :� < 1223063569 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :money! < 1223063574 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :munny munny munny < 1223063576 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want munnies < 1223063577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1223063583 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi AnMaster, join the fun. < 1223063587 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what that char showed up as
< 1223063590 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMster, hey < 1223063590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything interesting being discussed? < 1223063594 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: < 1223063596 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? in a diamond < 1223063597 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like.. < 1223063599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what char? < 1223063599 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1223063604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : € <-- that? < 1223063607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Euro < 1223063615 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster's i can see, interestingly < 1223063616 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains the "money!" < 1223063618 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder why < 1223063637 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@HSI-KBW-091-089-028-216.hsi2.kabelbw.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1223063637 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see EUR, spelled out < 1223063638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive, my client always sends as utf8, but it does auto detection on incoming data < 1223063638 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw oklopol < 1223063640 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love you. < 1223063644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the copy-paste would have translated < 1223063647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to utf8 < 1223063651 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if you recall the muture thing, i still have problems translating programs to a search that can work with partial solutions, which doesn't rule any search techniques out, but does make things harder < 1223063655 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1223063657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however I recommend oerjan change to utf8 encoding too < 1223063666 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you lack context to understand what i'm talking about < 1223063669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of whatever legacy encoding he use < 1223063692 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: that's kinda cool < 1223063699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ? < 1223063709 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i tried earlier and failed < 1223063716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it is easy in for example xchat < 1223063723 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¤ < 1223063725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just /charset UTF-8 < 1223063726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1223063729 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok anyone here willing to write me a program that uses all of the language's functions and outputs something to test whether the functions worked as intended? < 1223063738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, generic currency? < 1223063746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games, depends on what language it is? < 1223063746 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generic currency indeed < 1223063752 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently irssi does _some_ autodetection < 1223063757 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a kind of assembly language < 1223063761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well send in utf8 still < 1223063765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games, no thanks < 1223063772 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://co2games.com/wiki/index.php?title=N2CPU#Instruction_Set < 1223063775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games, do it yourself :) < 1223063782 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm < 1223063784 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assemblyyyyyyy < 1223063791 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assembly is nice < 1223063794 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fuzzy < 1223063807 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the syntax on this one is different < 1223063808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want purely functional asm < 1223063818 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be fun < 1223063822 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's what assembly is < 1223063827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games, no... < 1223063827 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, x86 assembly < 1223063831 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? :P < 1223063837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you got no idea what "pure functional" is? < 1223063842 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1223063849 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk? < 1223063857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well don't claim that x86 asm is that then < 1223063859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1223063863 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it then < 1223063865 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :single-assignment registers! :D < 1223063872 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD < 1223063882 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My assembly language instruction set doesn't have any ram < 1223063886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first class functions, single assignment, < 1223063888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example < 1223063896 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1223063900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, also I admit that idea needs to be worked on < 1223063904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it could cause issues < 1223063927 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it might work if you allowed one to bind and unbind them on procedure bound < 1223063934 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16 8-bit registers and two jump flags < 1223063938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, consider that you can compile java to bytecode, and that bytecode you could decompile to some asm... So... hm < 1223063944 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have dataflow variables, so you could return values from functions < 1223063949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if one can make OO asm < 1223063956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which both .NET and Java have < 1223063960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not some functional one < 1223063970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very low level asm I agree < 1223063978 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's an additional 8-bit output register < 1223063985 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want single-assignment registers < 1223063987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, how would you define "asm" code? I mean formally < 1223063989 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok is this utf8: æ, ø, å? < 1223063989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what makes it asm < 1223063990 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like the coolest idea ever < 1223063995 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the emulator is fully CLI < 1223063997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, ? < 1223063999 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the fact it seems asmy to me < 1223064000 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's all < 1223064016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, not that it is a very simple translation to the machine's own format? < 1223064021 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assembly means each command is a single processor instruction < 1223064026 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no nesting, and integers the only store < 1223064038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, because with that definition you could argue LISP *is* asm. Just fire up a LISP machine! < 1223064054 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turning leaves are so very pretty < 1223064055 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what definition? < 1223064059 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: yes < 1223064064 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp has nesting. < 1223064068 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't anything ASM for some machine? :o < 1223064071 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing leaves are pretty too < 1223064074 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp has data types other than int < 1223064086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, an asm language is a language that is basically a 1-to-1 mapping to machine code < 1223064089 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: each assembly command has a single instruction < 1223064095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then lisp would qualify on lisp-machines! < 1223064100 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: what does that mean? < 1223064108 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can a command have an instruction < 1223064112 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just text names for binary commands < 1223064121 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i haven't said that's a definition for being an asm < 1223064125 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my definition < 1223064126 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliases, the assembler just takes that and de-aliases them < 1223064127 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1223064132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, oh well < 1223064144 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: my definition is more general than *that* < 1223064149 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1223064150 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1223064166 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really quite different, i'm going by what the language feels like, not what it's used for < 1223064167 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ok i think i found the right option < 1223064167 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to learn about what an assembly language is < 1223064172 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i always do < 1223064176 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't give a shit about usage < 1223064179 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these leaves smell like lea < 1223064180 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f < 1223064181 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1223064181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well I can't check since my client auto detect on lines < 1223064186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ask psygnisfive < 1223064191 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: i've programmed ten times more asm than you :P < 1223064204 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for some values of true.) < 1223064205 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But have you made an assembly instruction set < 1223064208 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :many < 1223064224 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you intended to make your own hardware to run them? < 1223064233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so asm is basically stuff like , and instr should be a TLA if possible? < 1223064243 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anyone ever tried to design a Lisp processor that doesn't use registers and so on but processes sort of exactly like lisp does? < 1223064247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, like mov, add, sub < 1223064250 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: no. except once in wireworld, but turned out that'd been done < 1223064251 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In assembly each command is a single cpu instruction < 1223064258 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fail < 1223064269 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I intend to make hardware for my design < 1223064273 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've already made an emulator < 1223064275 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how does a Lisp machine works exactly? < 1223064278 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: fail? < 1223064300 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slereah_: the way im familiar with, lisp machines work similar to non-lisp machines < 1223064303 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You haven't intended to make hardware matching your assembly languages, that natively runs the output < 1223064306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, would you consider it asm if "mov %eax, %edx" was *written as*: "Move register eax to register edx"? or "(move eax edx)" < 1223064308 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that there are registers, and so forth < 1223064313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I mean it wouldn't look like asm < 1223064317 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that stuff gets pushed onto a stack, etc. < 1223064326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, but in effect it would only be a trivial text transformation < 1223064327 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: indeed i haven't, i fail to see anything interesting in that < 1223064327 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there was a rough description in the original Lisp article < 1223064332 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EWW AT&T syntax, yucky < 1223064334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, since nesting wouldn't work < 1223064343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games, better than intel syntax at least < 1223064350 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just wonder if there are any machines that actually implement lisp directly, not through registers and so on < 1223064351 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1223064352 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pfft < 1223064353 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no way < 1223064362 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :register machines are like implementations of Assembly < 1223064365 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intel syntax kicks at&t ass < 1223064366 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive : Does a man qualify as a machine? < 1223064367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games, I consider all x86 asm ugly < 1223064369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RISC please < 1223064375 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the machine IS the instruction set and vice versa, to an extent < 1223064376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CISC is just horrible to code in < 1223064379 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 is the ugliest thing mankind has ever devised. < 1223064384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa < 1223064386 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 is easy < 1223064389 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be destroyed and fed to pigs < 1223064392 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, lets design a CPU < 1223064392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, indeed < 1223064394 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1223064397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, x86_64 is even worse < 1223064399 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a sexy CPY < 1223064399 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's easy, but it's the ugliest thing mankind has ever devised. < 1223064402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest PPC or SPARC < 1223064402 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CPU* < 1223064404 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be killed and fed to pigs < 1223064408 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 supports nested loops < 1223064410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both seem sane compared to x86 < 1223064412 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for all topic in topics: psygnisfive.say('oklopol: lets design ' + topic) < 1223064412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really < 1223064415 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: does it? < 1223064417 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1223064423 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean < 1223064430 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a: < 1223064433 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;something < 1223064435 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b: < 1223064437 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;something < 1223064439 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8| < 1223064441 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loop b < 1223064441 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god you're a noob < 1223064443 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;something < 1223064444 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: ... < 1223064445 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loop a < 1223064446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I agree < 1223064449 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol CO2Games < 1223064450 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot, say something < 1223064450 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_: take some, bitch < 1223064455 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1223064459 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I AM OUTRAGED < 1223064460 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, lets design an instruction set that can be compiled down to some turing machine cpu relatively trivially < 1223064470 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noob trigger activated, time to go read my book < 1223064482 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you guys are using assembler-specific loop structures, you're doing it wrong < 1223064486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1223064490 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also the turing machine. :P < 1223064495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want purely functional ASM! < 1223064497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really < 1223064503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to see what it looked like < 1223064504 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp ASM? < 1223064512 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree anmaster. it would be interesting. < 1223064514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :single assignment < 1223064515 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let us begin work! < 1223064524 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what do you mean purely functional < 1223064526 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: what do you mean? not that i'm not already cone < 1223064527 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gone < 1223064532 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: um < 1223064532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and higher order functions < 1223064534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: lisp machine < 1223064534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1223064538 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol is a cone < 1223064546 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, yes he is < 1223064546 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp machines are not functional ASM CPUs tho, ehird < 1223064547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes... but by oklopol's definition of asm < 1223064549 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :havent you been listening? < 1223064555 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1223064556 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i have < 1223064558 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1223064559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I suggested it above < 1223064560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1223064560 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they sort of are < 1223064565 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1223064566 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are < 1223064567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol disagreed < 1223064572 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're really just register machines with built in lisp interpreters < 1223064576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1223064577 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no they < 1223064578 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'re not < 1223064581 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1223064582 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they < 1223064582 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are < 1223064582 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's just what i meant by asm in that context. < 1223064585 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fi you knew anything about them you wouldn't say that < 1223064590 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1223064593 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since ive seen their designs < 1223064597 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: seriously, what do you mean purely functional < 1223064598 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i can say that fairly confidently < 1223064612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and they were not single assignment. I want single assignment registers! < 1223064613 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atleast one of them, anyway. and from what i know most others are similar. < 1223064616 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: purely functional means blocks give the same output for the same input < 1223064618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :single assignment memory < 1223064631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games, the normal definition that everyone else use < 1223064636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could google < 1223064639 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :single assignment is for putzes. < 1223064649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive, huh? < 1223064661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :single assignment rocks < 1223064668 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :single assignment isnt really a huge benefit < 1223064673 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm all about dataflow variables atm < 1223064674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I want higher order opcodes! < 1223064674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1223064681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1223064682 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :higher order opcodes huh < 1223064684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first-class opcodes < 1223064685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather < 1223064686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1223064687 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with them, single assignment simply become damn elegant < 1223064694 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*becomes < 1223064699 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :opcodes that take opcodes as arguments and return opcodes as values? < 1223064703 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1223064707 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy shit that's pretty < 1223064723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first-class opcodes, single assignment registers. higher order... err stuff < 1223064733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure you can have higher order *functions* in asm < 1223064736 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now we're really just talking about building hardware that runs Lisp/Haskell < 1223064745 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well you can't easily have closures < 1223064760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, hm call/cc need to be supported too < 1223064765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like ti < 1223064766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it* < 1223064767 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can have higher-order functions in anything that allows pointers really < 1223064768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1223064769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1223064775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first class opcodes < 1223064775 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean unrestricted pointers < 1223064778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would rock < 1223064786 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's not exactly true, but you know what i mean. < 1223064792 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that may not be true either. < 1223064798 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know anything < 1223064800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh we need gc too < 1223064803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at asm level < 1223064808 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: do you know what call/cc is? < 1223064820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, damn, dude, stop becoming functional < 1223064824 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's scary. < 1223064831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I know it, and I understand it *partly*, but it makes my head spin < 1223064849 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it needs some time to sink in before you see how to actually use it < 1223064857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, yes. like lisp macros < 1223064860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are as bad < 1223064863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of < 1223064887 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think they are that hard to see the use of < 1223064895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean scheme without macros and call/cc is easy to understand really... Add either of those and it gets confusing < 1223064916 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are the tricky parts i guess < 1223064927 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hey, people, i'm really gonna go < 1223064934 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, unless CO2Games wants to answer < 1223064937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, anyway I suspect we need garbage collector for the asm or something < 1223064939 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1223064947 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :answer what < 1223064952 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:07:51 CO2Games: If you guys are using assembler-specific loop structures, you're doing it wrong < 1223064955 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean < 1223064967 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :masm has it's own loop structure < 1223064981 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, one that understands nested blocks < 1223064981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are thinking way too low level < 1223064982 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1223064985 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use it, or its if structures, you're doing it wrong < 1223064989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of us in here thinks high level < 1223064995 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently < 1223064997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pokes ehird
< 1223065001 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1223065010 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : most of us in here thinks high level < 1223065013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I claimed someone else was thinking too low-level < 1223065013 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :excluding AnMaster ... < 1223065013 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: do you mean loopthisblock { } < 1223065015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just above < 1223065019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, didn't you see it? < 1223065021 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1223065031 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1223065034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games was thinking too high level. < 1223065037 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure it used something like .IF EAX or something < 1223065048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how do you mean? < 1223065054 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: what the fuck does a loop structure mean < 1223065055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh it wrapped around? < 1223065061 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a branch instruction? < 1223065068 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1223065068 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that you can wrap code in a block < 1223065069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, f() -> f(). < 1223065070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1223065076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1223065084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and actually < 1223065088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then functional asm exists < 1223065090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of < 1223065094 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean masm and some others have support for preprocessing a while loop on a register < 1223065099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, want to hear the details? < 1223065105 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: and that's fail to use because...? < 1223065110 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: gcc-bf has an asm command for a while loop on a register < 1223065116 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that's not low-level enough < 1223065138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, erlang compiles the code to byte code, functional byte code... However you can make it dump that as erlang asm < 1223065139 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/recursive/node4.html < 1223065140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for debugging < 1223065141 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: it's simpler to code with, and gives the same results < 1223065144 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would this be useful? < 1223065144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, it is scarry < 1223065149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it looks like nothing else < 1223065165 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: you mean you shouldn't do it because you shouldn't take the easy way out? < 1223065166 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using low level languages like asm is used for more control over what the program is doing < 1223065186 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using assembler-specific things just ruins the fun < 1223065205 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: well anyway, no, i've never used a loop structure like that, no fun progging in an esolang if you use a wimpmode < 1223065207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{function, module_info, 1, 36}. < 1223065207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : {label,35}. < 1223065207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : {func_info,{atom,intercal},{atom,module_info},1}. < 1223065207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : {label,36}. < 1223065207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : {move,{x,0},{x,1}}. < 1223065208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : {move,{atom,intercal},{x,0}}. < 1223065210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : {call_ext_only,2,{extfunc,erlang,get_module_info,2}}. < 1223065212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, like that ^ < 1223065222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was an auto generated function < 1223065229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that contains module meta data < 1223065229 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: yeah, okay, if you mean it ruins the fun, then i agree 100% < 1223065244 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like an esoteric language but they pay people to use it < 1223065249 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't spoil it < 1223065251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, what do you think? < 1223065259 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's like an esoteric language but they pay people to use it < 1223065261 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what language? < 1223065265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, call_only is tail recursion < 1223065265 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asm < 1223065267 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 assembly < 1223065281 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: also called a "jump" :P < 1223065286 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the big hit in the drivers and hardware control industry < 1223065288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, yep < 1223065304 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your sata drivers are probably written in raw assembly < 1223065305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, actually it was a generic tail call < 1223065310 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you have any install < 1223065312 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed < 1223065321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games, hardly < 1223065328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are coded in C mostly < 1223065331 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1223065333 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they fail bad < 1223065336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1223065340 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes ->
< 1223065349 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like writing a kernel in C, you should've used asm < 1223065351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games, they are coded in C mostly everywhere < 1223065356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and kernels are coded in C < 1223065359 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then they fail < 1223065360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with tiny bits of asm < 1223065368 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, that's their problem < 1223065374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god.. you are a troll really? < 1223065378 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody wants to work with low level < 1223065390 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i agree with CO2Games, and i'm not a troll < 1223065399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, about what? < 1223065401 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: there are lower levels than asm < 1223065411 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even asm is still interpreted by a physical object < 1223065415 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1223065417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, http://rafb.net/p/k0Bx1911.html <-- this may interest you < 1223065418 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my University project is about compilation into hardware < 1223065421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive, you too ^ < 1223065422 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking software < 1223065426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ais523 ^ < 1223065429 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the only interpretation, if any, is done by the laws of physics < 1223065435 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that even things that absolutely need to be correct should be coded in a language that makes enforcing correctness as hard as possible < 1223065442 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, i guess i'm a bit of a troll by nature < 1223065453 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes the hardware/software line blurry if you're compiling directly into hardware from a C-like language... < 1223065455 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eww yucky get it away < 1223065456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, haha < 1223065472 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: are you making a hdl? :O < 1223065486 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: no < 1223065487 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better < 1223065494 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..better? 8| < 1223065496 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm compiling into an hdl from a C-like language < 1223065496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games, compiling into hardware is fun :) < 1223065497 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking of making my own computer system thingy < 1223065500 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is imperative but lazy < 1223065508 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh my god < 1223065509 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and expensive if it's one of those hardcore chips < 1223065521 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: verilog is pretty much c... < 1223065527 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: don't believe it < 1223065532 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've seen itt < 1223065533 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it < 1223065535 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like C but the paradigm is totally different < 1223065538 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1223065540 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. < 1223065541 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C the commands generally have some sort of order... < 1223065545 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1223065549 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone can make a programming language look like C < 1223065552 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah okay, it's totally different < 1223065553 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't mean it is C < 1223065562 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See: Jugs < 1223065567 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like c < 1223065570 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't c < 1223065583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, a functional language should work well for that, since you could potentially easily figure out what you can evaluate in parallel < 1223065589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better than imperative < 1223065609 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: we're compiling via a functional language < 1223065610 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well that sounds incredibly cool, i'd love to help, even, were i of any use. < 1223065611 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except it isn't < 1223065622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so something with single assignment, no side effects should be best < 1223065622 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's sort of a limited functional language < 1223065627 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you aren't allowed to do recursion < 1223065633 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, single assignment doesn't help < 1223065635 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just read a book about processor design, and i kinda wanna play with that < 1223065647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is it tc without recursion? < 1223065652 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my machine's emulator is 1781 lines long before preprocessing < 1223065660 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, no real piece of hardware can be TC < 1223065671 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language therefore has to deliberately be sub-TC, if you think about it < 1223065673 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: asmtc < 1223065678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, true but you could run loops on them < 1223065691 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asmtcness is a concept designed for this exact purpose < 1223065691 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it allows tail-recursion in the intermediate lang < 1223065698 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is compiled from loops in the source lang < 1223065705 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the compiling step could still be TC < 1223065711 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10101 instructions < 1223065712 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCK < 1223065712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, bounded storage yes. Preventing loops: not needed < 1223065713 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1223065719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I can see < 1223065722 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: loops are allowed, so are nested loops < 1223065727 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but non-tail recursion isn't < 1223065732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah < 1223065735 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can convert all imperative-style loops into tail recursin < 1223065737 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*recurison < 1223065741 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*recursion < 1223065751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes if nothing else you can do it as continuation passing < 1223065754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1223065762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably there are better ways < 1223065765 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10101 instructions in binary that is < 1223065768 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: continuation passing in hardware? < 1223065771 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you serious? < 1223065775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no.... < 1223065776 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember you don't have pointers... < 1223065781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh ok < 1223065786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so how then? < 1223065795 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how what, loops? < 1223065803 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's while, not what < 1223065805 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just get a function to call itself at the end < 1223065809 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to loop, if the loop hasn't ended < 1223065813 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty trivial really < 1223065832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, a language can be tc without recursion but with while-style loops. Just look at for example brainfuck < 1223065842 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know < 1223065847 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's a limited amount of memory < 1223065848 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So anyways guess what < 1223065855 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the TC problems aren't due to the control structures < 1223065867 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My machine is not turing complete on its own < 1223065870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, recursion without imperative-style loops is tc. < 1223065872 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recursion does create an infinite amount of memory, if you have either local variables or arguments < 1223065880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so is just tail-recursion < 1223065880 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you force the user to write down a tape of bits < 1223065881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1223065887 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about that SMITH language? :o < 1223065892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how without continuations < 1223065893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1223065897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is my question < 1223065898 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That just rewrites itself at the end < 1223065903 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: how what? < 1223065910 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get what you're getting at...# < 1223065916 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/#// < 1223065919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how do you transform any loop into a tail recursive call < 1223065935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, if you can't use continuations < 1223065951 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a; while(c) b; d; becomes a; f(); d; sub f() {b; if(c) f();} < 1223065958 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty simple really... < 1223066018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm since body recursion got the same "tc-ness" as that style of loops... Is it that easy to transform any recursion into tail recursion? < 1223066049 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it fails if you have to maintain state and retrieve it later < 1223066062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, for example the traditional non-tail (body for short in this context) recursive fibonacci. < 1223066063 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok I've come to a conclusion < 1223066064 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if you need to know the recursion height < 1223066072 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The machine cannot store data. < 1223066078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you can transform it to normal loops though < 1223066079 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, enough data < 1223066083 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's some C code: < 1223066084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or bf wouldn't be tc < 1223066087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ^ < 1223066087 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's only 16 registers < 1223066098 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, you have to maintain a stack by hand < 1223066102 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd need a tape device < 1223066102 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to do that transformation < 1223066104 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in some cases < 1223066117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, right. (Though there are ways around for fib iirc) < 1223066135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but stack needs pointer doesn't it? And you didn't have pointers you said < 1223066168 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void f(void) {if(getchar()!='a') {if(getchar()=='!') return; abort();} f(); if(getchar()!='b') abort();} < 1223066176 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, that's why my program isn't TC < 1223066184 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it has loops, there are some things you can't compile into it < 1223066195 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the lack of having infinite storage < 1223066207 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at my one-liner C program above, and assume you've included the header files and call f from main < 1223066208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, a fib for 32-bit integers :) < 1223066213 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use a register to be a stack pointer < 1223066238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes there are various other ways to make fib tail recursive < 1223066238 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's nit-picking time! ais523's tail-recursion example implements "a; do { b; } while(c); d;" and not "a; while(c) b; d;" as advertised. < 1223066239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that < 1223066249 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: whoops, I need an extra if < 1223066260 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't really change the nature of it, though < 1223066279 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, that's why the call it picking nits. (What's the etymology of that anyway?) < 1223066568 0 :LinuS!n=LinuS@net-93-145-204-17.t2.dsl.vodafone.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1223066597 0 :Mony!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1223066612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oct 3 13:30:21 tux [3293016.218037] readonly.exe[6652]: segfault at 4005bc ip 4004c1 sp 7fffe6b1bf80 error 7 in readonly.exe[400000+1000] < 1223066612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oct 3 20:00:06 tux [ 4886.698062] rarian-sk-get-c[9053]: segfault at 0 ip 35fae73af0 sp 7fff6d5db9b8 error 4 in libc-2.6.1.so[35fae00000+136000] < 1223066613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1223066622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION searchs disk
< 1223066624 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :readonly.exe? < 1223066629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what I'm wondering too < 1223066632 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds very like a Windows program name... < 1223066633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rootkit? < 1223066638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes and I don't have wine < 1223066654 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems unlikely that your computer would get rooted... < 1223066658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed < 1223066753 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://web.archive.org/web/20030521231823/http://www.essenz.com/support/comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc/Oct/29/207663.html < 1223066763 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: nits are the eggs of lice iirc < 1223066771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah yes I upgraded ksh < 1223066777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the other one then < 1223066778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1223066779 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems it only happens on FreeBSD when compiling ksh < 1223066783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, Gentoo < 1223066785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not freebsd < 1223066788 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1223066791 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the same problem though < 1223066795 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd guess it's a confused Makefile < 1223066801 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which tries to do Windows stuff by mistake < 1223066810 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: a limited amount of registers can still be TC if they are unbounded, see Minsky Machine on the wiki < 1223066845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, found anything on the other process? < 1223066852 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't searched yet < 1223066858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=234489 < 1223066858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1223066865 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the registers are 8-bit < 1223066869 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not infinite < 1223066869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :app-text/rarian < 1223066872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems I got it installed < 1223066875 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are only 16 of them < 1223066875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some dep < 1223066881 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not infinite < 1223066894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think segfault log messages should record path info too < 1223066896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just IMO < 1223066897 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A tape device or memory device would have to be attached < 1223066931 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO2Games: yeah then you need a tape device, a RAM is not technically enough since the pointer sizes would be bounded too < 1223066943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, if it had said something like /var/tmp/portage/app-shells/ksh-1.2.3/work/ksh-1.2.3/readonly.exe then I wouldn't have got scared like that < 1223066954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever the ksh version is < 1223066993 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you could use a RAM if you had bignum pointers < 1223067006 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: he had 8-bit registers < 1223067034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16 registers? < 1223067035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eww < 1223067039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that few < 1223067048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a real arch should have at least 64 GPR < 1223067057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of reasonable size < 1223067061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 32-bit or 64-bit < 1223067064 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1223067065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on platform < 1223067067 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 registers? < 1223067069 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck. that. shit. < 1223067073 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bff-gc has 64 general-purpose 8 bit registers < 1223067075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes iirc PPC got that < 1223067077 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bf-gcc < 1223067082 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which seems to be about the right number < 1223067084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think RISC < 1223067086 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc generally ends up using 50 or so < 1223067087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not CISC < 1223067091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you get more registers < 1223067092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1223067094 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 16 registers is perfect < 1223067099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, for a CISC < 1223067102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for a RISC < 1223067105 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1223067107 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a risc < 1223067123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you had this discussion with RodgerTheGreat (iirc?) before < 1223067125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree with him < 1223067128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whoever it was < 1223067133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and refer you to that convo < 1223067135 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i didn't < 1223067138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was a few weeks/months ago < 1223067147 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, rodgerthegreat mostly agreed with me on the topic of asm < 1223067161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I think it was him that wanted to have more registers < 1223067166 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as he rightly critiqued your cpu architechture which had an instruction to switch 32/64 bits but not the actual vitals. < 1223067201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it wasn't complete, it was a draft < 1223067225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I was thankful for that he pointed out the issue < 1223067231 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but i think it's kind of fitting that it was very portable to various large-scale applications, it just didn't have anything else they'd need... < 1223067243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like.. < 1223067246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, however. You disliked register count < 1223067249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :program execution < 1223067258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there rodger the great agreed with me < 1223067282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, if you meant cpu rings, context switching and such then it wasn't intended < 1223067335 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it seems quite a few other people are getting those rarian-sk-get-c errors, Googling doesn't show why though < 1223067475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes < 1223067478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wtf is rarian < 1223067479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really < 1223067481 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cosmic rays, clearly < 1223067510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hit number 2 at google for "rarian-sk-get-c" (http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=234489) seems relevant I guess < 1223067513 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :librarian-dev - Rarian is a documentation meta-data library ( < 1223067526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes and that doesn't say anything really < 1223067535 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1223067544 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at least it gives some clue as to why it was on your system < 1223067545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I mean it could be doxygen metadata, but I doubt that < 1223067555 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can certainly imagine something like that running during the compile of something < 1223067560 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that used it for documentation < 1223067575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# equery depends app-text/rarian < 1223067575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ Searching for packages depending on app-text/rarian... ] < 1223067575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :app-text/scrollkeeper-9999-r1 (app-text/rarian) < 1223067584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1223067589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9999? < 1223067589 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what depends on scrollkeeper? < 1223067594 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite a lot AFAIR < 1223067599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[I] app-text/scrollkeeper < 1223067601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Description: Dummy scrollkeeper for testing rarian < 1223067606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION growls
< 1223067646 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION howls
< 1223067656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah about all gnome packages that I happen to have installed because some bloody app I want depends on them instead of using something lightweight and portable such a wxwidgets < 1223067662 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it seems that almost all of gnome depends on rarian < 1223067673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes 5 packages < 1223067680 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well this is a Gnome system < 1223067683 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's a lot more packages for me < 1223067688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, however I haven't updated rarian recently afaik < 1223067688 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's both Gnome and KDE, actually < 1223067694 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I normally boot into Gnome < 1223067738 0 :puzzlet_!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.231 JOIN :#esoteric < 1223067745 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1223068446 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1223068681 0 :atrapado_!n=mnh@217.168.3.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1223068713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well here startx to KDE loading dialog done takes about 10 seconds < 1223068717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no big issue < 1223068718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to use KDE < 1223068728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also I hardly ever reboot < 1223068737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :today I did for reasons out of my control < 1223068745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I had over a month of uptime before that < 1223068748 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1223068752 0 :atrapado_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :atrapado < 1223068842 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ais523 is not online < 1223068993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* [ais523] is away (Gone away for now.) < 1223068995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct < 1223069001 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<-psyBNC> Fri Oct 3 20:13:37 :User ais523 quitted (from 147.188.254.96) < 1223069002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I assume he have away log :) < 1223069003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even more correct. < 1223069012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has* < 1223069014 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Since his client isn't connected to the server, no. < 1223069024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, err? the bnc should have an away log < 1223069027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or disconnect-log < 1223069028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1223069029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1223069029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it does. < 1223069030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But he doesn't. < 1223069039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you mean he doesn't use it? < 1223069047 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the server's, not his personally. < 1223069057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh same bnc for both of you? < 1223069063 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1223069065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find that really confusing < 1223069070 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1223069084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also security issues. And shared away log < 1223069085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and such < 1223069087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Running two instances of it would just be wasteful. < 1223069088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be per-user < 1223069090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not per-server < 1223069094 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The latter: it is. < 1223069097 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it is on the server. < 1223069101 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not his machine. < 1223069112 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, as for security issues, < 1223069114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, of course I expect him to read it when he get back < 1223069116 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we both have root on the server. < 1223069117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like an away log < 1223069125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I can nitpick if I want, can't I? < 1223069136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well I can't stop you :P < 1223069141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, security issues: since we're both sudoers, we could impersonate eacho ther even with seperate instances < 1223069174 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Holy fuck. < 1223069178 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What. < 1223069189 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I was doing an emerge --sync, I think I saw some KDE 4.1 packages go by. < 1223069198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dun dun DUNN < 1223069220 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought KDE 4 wasn't in official Portage since KDE 4 ebuilds used EAPI 2, which got approved... 2 days ago. < 1223069242 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jeez, Gentoo. < 1223069246 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're either 5 years out of date... < 1223069251 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 2 seconds bleeding edge. < 1223069270 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using an overlay, so I'm 2 seconds bleeding edge. Whee. < 1223069298 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks at pikhq's outline.
< 1223069301 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is quite some blood. < 1223069308 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you wanna get that checked out < 1223069341 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not blood, it's just ketchup < 1223069369 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION bites pikhq's arm off.
< 1223069369 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it < 1223069372 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s blood. < 1223069385 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a flesh wound. < 1223069621 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh. baselayout-2 is about to hit Gentoo stable, too. < 1223070080 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cc < 1223070307 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@j-109.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1223070865 0 :moozilla!n=moozilla@207-118-24-249.dyn.centurytel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1223072339 0 :ihope!n=Peggy@c-71-205-100-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1223072346 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are Unlambda programs worth turning into music? < 1223072371 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not, I'll have to use Thue stuff instead. < 1223072374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Yes. < 1223072376 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To both. < 1223072377 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bop boppeti bop boop beep < 1223072379 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: c-b-l < 1223073467 0 :LinuS!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1223074693 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Abandonando" < 1223074912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I thought KDE 4 wasn't in official Portage since KDE 4 ebuilds used EAPI 2, which got approved... 2 days ago. < 1223074913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Jeez, Gentoo. < 1223074913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : You're either 5 years out of date... < 1223074913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : or 2 seconds bleeding edge. < 1223074914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong < 1223074922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ones in the tree were converted < 1223074925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to not use EAPI 2 < 1223074933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least they were before < 1223074933 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha. How typical. < 1223074939 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gentoo patches stuff and fails to give a shit about the maintainers. < 1223074953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things break, people complain upstream, developers tell them to go away because Gentoo just fucks with their stuff and doesn't tell them. < 1223074955 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone loses. < 1223074969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, err how did it break? < 1223074982 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I did not say this specific case. < 1223075003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, your comment about "typical" indicated that you considered the current case representative for what you said < 1223075007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the common usage of it < 1223075025 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Can you guarantee that it won't break? < 1223075026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1223075038 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That interpretation could be correct. < 1223075040 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's not the point. < 1223075063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EAPI-2 is an extension to the package format, it was used in the development repo for KDE for a while. Now EAPI-2 have become standard. < 1223075118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: Can you guarantee that it won't break? <-- no, doing that for anything non-trivial would solve the halting problem I think < 1223075135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, however iirc the EAPI-2 change is minor < 1223075137 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing is BROKEN. < 1223075140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so "probably won't" < 1223075145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The computer always does what you tell it to. < 1223075152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, indeed < 1223075155 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Detecting such wouldnt' be halting problem, < 1223075158 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd just be impossible. < 1223075172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, "broken algorithm" however < 1223075201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, "does this algorithm do what it says on the box"? < 1223075208 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Impossible to detect :-P < 1223075209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would solve halting problem < 1223075240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"this algorithm returns true if the Riemann hypothesis is true < 1223075249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, just consider something like that ;P < 1223075284 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i smell a logical fallacy < 1223075289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "this algorithm returns true if the function passed to it will halt" < 1223075294 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Ditto. < 1223075295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may not be halting problem < 1223075303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however impossible indeed < 1223075318 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because it's impossible for _some_ programs doesn't mean it's impossible for _every_ program < 1223075327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, indeed < 1223075332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could make a trivial case < 1223075344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I was talking about the general case however < 1223075347 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1223075374 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the moon is on the sky then one plus one equals two < 1223075464 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This just in: Famous Oklopolian mathematician proves that basic arithmetic derives from celestial bodies. < 1223075472 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION yawns disavowingly
< 1223075500 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopolian < 1223075501 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1223075513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about this.... hm < 1223075526 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that should be oklopolitan < 1223075532 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps oklopolar < 1223075547 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopolitan would probably be the most logical one < 1223075552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no doesn't work < 1223075559 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopolous < 1223075559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok I admit my wording was bad < 1223075565 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it's moot as Oklopolis sunk in the ocean thousands of years ago < 1223075581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ehird, "does this algorithm do what it says on the box"? Impossible to detect :-P <-- why? If it isn't the halting problem, then what is it? < 1223075614 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Uh, that's called "reading your mind". < 1223075643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm? Proving if a certain algorithm does what it says is mind reading? < 1223075648 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1223075649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1223075652 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you codify what it says? < 1223075653 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1223075662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, using some format syntax < 1223075668 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: says on the box == satisfies a declarative specification, i assume < 1223075669 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... which can have bugs in it. < 1223075673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, yes < 1223075681 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So now you have to verify the specification via another specification. < 1223075683 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_every_ algorithm does exactly what it says. remarkable, that. < 1223075684 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, I love infinite regress. < 1223075687 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan++ < 1223075693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, except my wording was less format ;P < 1223075697 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oklopolitan, yes. < 1223075774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm I suspect you could construct something like: "this algorithm: Don't run this algorithm", though that may just be a plain boring paradox < 1223075778 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: well yes, that's true, you cannot achieve what the original intention was. < 1223075783 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1223075801 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cannot check whether the algorithm does what the creator wanted it to < 1223075839 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"to run this algorithm: do not run this algorithm" isn't exactly a set of well-defined computational steps < 1223075848 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1223075864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well that is true < 1223075868 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can either think it means do not run this algorithm as in "do not recurse" == nop < 1223075871 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1223075882 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Don't do ..." is not much of an algorithm. < 1223075888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, "s/do not/do never have and never will/" < 1223075889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1223075901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and true < 1223075901 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also think in a logical sense, that it means "do not do such a sequence of operations that the result is the same as after running this algorithm" < 1223075903 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess it's a nondeterministic algorithm. < 1223075904 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i'm sure you meant < 1223075914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This statement is not a statement. < 1223075922 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The possible results of that algorithm are precisely those results that the algorithm cannot produce. < 1223075925 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter is a declarative specification, a constraint, it's not an "algorithm" in the sense normally used < 1223075947 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read what i said, it will answer all. < 1223075964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, ah hm. Yes that was what I meant < 1223076020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night all < 1223076028 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night. < 1223076036 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, anyone wanna share some food with me? < 1223076095 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf68ca.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1223076125 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, food < 1223076136 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: sure. < 1223076156 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1223076193 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: send via mail asp < 1223076197 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll put a bit of sugar in an envelope and mail it to you. < 1223076203 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i didn't agree to supply the food! < 1223076204 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be nice < 1223076237 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: touche < 1223076243 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll have to send me a SASE, though. < 1223076264 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll give you the address. < 1223076306 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a SASE < 1223076344 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Self-addressed stamped envelope. < 1223076364 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1223076382 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you in high-school? < 1223076399 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1223076409 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you'll have to use one of those fancy international reply coupon things. < 1223076433 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: could you send me a SASSASE < 1223076441 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, so i can send you the sase < 1223076502 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I won't send you anything unless you first send me a SASE to send it in. < 1223076510 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm cheap. < 1223076704 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either that, or I can't afford the 42 cents for a stamp. < 1223076721 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :42 cents? < 1223076726 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's like... 0 euros < 1223076915 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about 30 euro cents < 1223076959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 2.5 NOK < 1223076975 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOK NOK < 1223076977 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i'm sure is far less than it would cost from norway... < 1223077211 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 NOK for standard priority letter within norway < 1223077346 0 :CO2Games!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"And I invented doors, no joke!" < 1223077369 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11 NOK to outside europe. about 1.84 USD. < 1223077593 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION notes that freaking out ihope with norwegian price levels doesn't seem to be working
< 1223077608 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or he's in shock :D < 1223077742 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and i dont know what "other dos emulators" is < 1223078142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive, there? < 1223078160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive, was the fedora/bowler hat grammar your idea? Or someone else? < 1223078176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoever it was: did the discussion get anywhere?