2008-09-01: 00:08:01 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:13:59 -!- lolwtfbbq has joined. 00:14:17 test 00:14:18 -!- lolwtfbbq has quit (Client Quit). 00:55:49 -!- funnygot has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 01:03:01 -!- AnMaster_ has joined. 01:03:38 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection timed out). 01:07:28 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 01:13:10 -!- tusho has quit. 02:00:24 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 02:41:35 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit. 02:41:57 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 02:44:32 -!- dogface has joined. 02:44:48 Guys, you're my friends. Suppose I were to write a story. 02:46:09 I'd have a character named Johann Algernon, and he'd be really smart, but he'd be bored most of the time. Then a girl named Grace would come into his life via deus ex machina and teach him how to be happy. 02:47:40 And then they'd kidnap Wolfram Blitzen from Newshounds and... well, maybe not that. 02:48:12 wait, we're your friends now? 02:48:18 shit, when did that happen?! 02:48:27 can i see some paperwork? 02:48:48 Well, *you're* not my friend. Just... gosh, where'd they go? 02:48:50 :-P 02:48:58 optbot, any ideas? 02:48:59 GreaseMonkey: I need to write a BF interpreter in INTERCAL still. 02:49:15 right, that's what your friends are doing. 02:51:21 And in a completely unrelated manner, a funny group of characters would get together and accomplish something really cool. 02:51:43 And it'd collapse in a comic manner so that I could continue writing. 02:52:20 And these seemingly separate stories would be heavily allegorical, and scathing commentaries on each other. :-P 03:10:08 And it's gotten to the point where I suddenly don't understand the comics I'm reading. 03:10:36 So I'll stop putting "and" at the beginning of every sentence and go to bed instead. 03:10:40 Good night, everyone. 03:33:24 -!- megatron has changed nick to moozilla. 03:45:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i prefer Ligeti ;). 06:02:44 -!- Judofyr has joined. 06:40:43 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster. 06:55:08 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 06:55:08 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:34:05 -!- olsner has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:20:50 -!- oklofok has joined. 08:20:50 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:30:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:46:49 Deewiant: on line 707, '""oof""' should be '""oof"'" 09:34:03 -!- jix has joined. 09:35:59 -!- mtve has quit ("Reconnecting to server - dircproxy 1.0.5"). 09:36:02 -!- mtve has joined. 09:45:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | where did you get that code?. 09:47:24 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:57:41 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 10:25:55 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 11:06:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:42:41 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 11:42:51 -!- jix has joined. 12:24:21 -!- tusho has joined. 12:41:21 School starts in exactly 24 hours. 12:43:07 Three trimesters later, and boom, you're a graduate. 12:43:14 And by you, I mean me, of course. 12:44:26 z+4 12:46:47 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:23:03 I agree completely. 13:53:41 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6yuat/let_people_use_google_accounts_to_log_in_to_your/ 65 upvotes, 65 downvotes. 13:53:45 A perfect 0 score 13:53:46 . 13:59:01 See if you can win a prize for most controversial idea ever. 13:59:17 dogface: Nah, there've been more controversial posts on reddit. 13:59:47 dogface: http://www.reddit.com/controversial/?t=all 13:59:59 The most controversial reddit posts of all time. 14:00:05 Hmm. 14:00:08 I am #16. 14:00:09 Not bad, not bad. 14:00:12 dogface: you're a graduate in a year? 14:01:20 tusho: where do you see number of up/downvotes 14:01:27 Deewiant: sidebar 14:01:30 on the comments page 14:01:35 ah, there 14:01:41 #1 has 561 up vs 562 down 14:01:54 there used to be a little "status" link or something on the comments page which showed it 14:02:08 now that it's always visible I couldn't find it anymore ;-) 14:02:16 Deewiant: yeah reddit fucked with the design a while ago 14:02:25 it looks kind of shit now unless you turn on compact mode in prefs 14:02:34 and of course I immediately did 14:02:53 hmm, I've voted up 4 posts in the top 31 controversial 14:03:10 i rarely ever upvote things 14:03:21 I rarely ever downvote things 14:03:25 I either upvote or don't, in general 14:03:53 you're a bunch of anarchists 14:04:02 (( (int (*)(int))(*foo)(int) = { int n | 14:04:02 { int i | return n += i; } }; )) 14:04:04 yipes. 14:04:11 methinks the syntax could use some whipping. 14:04:15 what's that 14:04:20 rather, where's that from 14:04:23 I know what it is :-P 14:04:36 Deewiant: i am playing around with a little syntax to give C functional programming shizz 14:04:39 closures is part of that 14:04:42 well 14:04:45 closures + anonymous functions 14:04:47 so it's just something private of yours 14:04:50 hmm 14:04:54 but yeah, that type is gnarly. 14:05:03 (int (*)(int)) (*foo)(int) 14:05:03 how about "int n, int i |" for starters 14:05:13 Deewiant: how about no, see http://www.paulgraham.com/accgen.html 14:05:16 The problem: Write a function foo that takes a number n and returns a function that takes a number i, and returns n incremented by i. 14:05:34 mine does everything except his (a) requirement which is basically designed to get rid of any non-dynamically-typed langs 14:05:35 tusho: it would mean the same thing, of course 14:05:44 Deewiant: ah. i am not making c a curried language :D 14:05:50 why not 14:05:59 that would break variadics, noadics, and most pieces of c code ever 14:06:12 also if you do func(notenoughargs); as a statement it'd suck to get it accepted 14:06:17 because that'd return a function 14:06:23 instead of erroring out because you didn't specify enough args 14:06:42 anyway, the actual function body is fine I think, it's just the type that is hideous 14:06:53 I could add an 'auto' for type inferrence ofc 14:07:05 auto foo = { int n | { int i | return n += i } }; 14:07:14 hmm 14:07:31 well, the thing is that C's function/function pointer syntax /is/ gnarly 14:08:12 adding even just a keyword "function" or whatever would work but would break compatibility with C, of course 14:08:24 i don't mind breaking compatibility a little 14:08:30 but i wouldn't completely rewrite it e.g. by currying 14:10:45 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 14:13:27 in D that'd be "int delegate(int) delegate(int) foo = (int n) { return (int i) { return n += i; } };" 14:13:37 plus a semiclon after the next-to-last } 14:13:42 s/clon/colon/ 14:13:48 for a second there i thought "in D" was some elaborate smiley 14:14:28 and with auto, "auto foo = (int n) { return (int i) { return n += i; }; };" 14:15:14 Deewiant: yeah, I prefer the smalltalky {x | y} though 14:15:23 also the delegate syntax has always confused me 14:15:25 imo 14:15:25 hmm 14:15:28 maybe: 14:15:39 it's just delegate :-P 14:16:01 ^(params)(return) 14:16:02 you could of course use "function" instead if you prefer that to the odd term "delegate" 14:16:08 ah, how about (params)^(return) 14:16:20 hmm 14:16:20 (int)^((int)^int) 14:16:33 i mean, the type of the function is difficult to comprehend anyway, so it'll never be perfect 14:16:42 i think that's pretty decent 14:17:25 are the lexical and parsing phases separate in C compilation, like they are not in C++? 14:17:35 I forget the short term to describe this kind of grammar 14:18:37 deewiant: wha? 14:18:39 context-sensitive? 14:18:47 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive. 14:19:27 separating lexical recognition from non-lexical stuff is just a different way of parsing, it has nothing to do with the language 14:19:30 Deewiant: yea, they are 14:19:35 psygnisfive: no, the c standard specifies it 14:19:41 i understand that 14:19:43 like, in that case you can't always parse "X ^ Y" to "xor X Y", it's "if X is a type then function pointer... else xor X Y" 14:19:48 but it has nothing to do with the grammar or the language 14:19:51 its a matter of parsing 14:20:06 psygnisfive: the c standard defines the language c. the c standard specifies that they must be seperate. 14:20:07 well basically of course you can implement it all in one clump if you want to :-P 14:20:10 therefore it has something to do with the language. 14:20:19 but it /is/ a property of the grammar 14:20:21 Deewiant: ah, that's true .... wait, couldn't I just use ->? 14:20:25 tusho: i understand that the standard specifies this but theres no essential difference 14:20:29 (int) -> ((int) -> int) 14:20:33 psygnisfive: ok ,yes, you can implement it either way 14:20:38 but you have to act as if you used two steps 14:20:39 deewiant: its not a property of the grammar 14:20:47 ill show you precisely why too 14:20:47 tusho: no, I don't think so, since "(x) -> (y)" is valid, no? 14:20:57 Deewiant: how is that valid in c 14:21:03 minus greater than? 14:21:05 tusho: x is a pointer to a struct 14:21:09 oh 14:21:09 duh 14:21:11 the lexing stage is the collection of terminal symbols, potentially infinite in size, into labels 14:21:14 the spaces threw me off 14:21:18 Deewiant: but this is a type 14:21:21 you can't do foo->bar in a type 14:21:28 tusho: I'm not sure if ->(y) is valid though, it might have to be ->y (no brackets) 14:21:36 e.g. strings like "blarg" become 'terminals' of type or whatever you want to call it 14:22:04 by using some regular expression to recognize the string. 14:22:11 tusho: no, but it's still context sensitive because you can't just see "identifier -> identifier" and decide what it is 14:22:23 this basically is a rule ::= /.../ 14:22:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context-free_grammar 14:22:45 Deewiant: well duh, c has tons of ambiguities like that :D 14:22:48 now whether or not all those rules are applied beforehand or not is irrelevant to the grammar/language 14:23:26 deewiant how is C's grammar context sensitive? 14:23:29 tusho: I'm not sure if this is what I want to be talking about, but it's a property the grammar of D has and that of C++ doesn't :-P 14:23:41 psygnisfive: I didn't say it was 14:23:46 I asked whether it was 14:23:53 oh. probably not 14:23:55 C++'s is 14:23:59 i doubt that. 14:24:07 C++ is not context free 14:24:07 CS grammars are hard to parse, in general 14:24:12 How not? 14:24:14 C++ is hard to parse 14:24:17 :P 14:24:18 C++ is turing complete to parse 14:24:20 that's one big criticism of it 14:24:21 due to templates 14:24:24 look it up, bitchez 14:24:38 i seriously doubt that C++ is unrestricted 14:25:01 i have to go. ill ask you about this later. see ya. 14:25:32 well the type system is tc, so most likely you can do something impossible to parse with the thingie ambiguity 14:25:41 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/browse_thread/thread/93b9995c660a443b/7aa3c7a30ec301d4 14:26:07 ah yes, the canonical example 14:26:10 Mytype MyName(MyValue); 14:27:05 could be a number of things in C++, from a function declaration to initializing a class instance 14:29:14 the idea of context-freeness is that a given piece of code, say "identifier -> identifier", can parse to only one thing 14:30:08 in this case, something like "expression -> struct-member-dereference -> (identifier, identifier)" I guess 14:30:25 Indeed 14:30:33 Deewiant: but, in this case 14:30:35 it's not ambiguous 14:30:40 as the type doesn't clash with the expr 14:30:57 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:30:58 what do you mean 14:32:25 given "x -> y", x and/or y might be typedefs so you can't know whether that's a function literal in your syntax or (*x).y 14:37:00 tusho, I think yours is the most controversial thing that's actually an idea. 14:37:16 dogface: :D 14:37:34 Deewiant: wut 14:37:38 give me an ambiguous expression 14:37:42 tusho: x -> y 14:37:49 Deewiant: yes, that's an expression 14:37:50 not a type 14:37:56 (x -> y) foo; 14:37:57 vs 14:38:00 foo = (x -> y) 14:38:08 The heads of all pages that are in the imperative: 1. vote 2. vote 4. vote 7. vote 14. let 14:38:09 hmmm 14:38:10 totally different contexts, you can just have a seperate rule for type with that in 14:38:18 you may be right, let me think 14:38:21 and let that only appear in the expression thing 14:38:41 of course this isn't actually a problem anyway 14:38:45 now that I think about it 14:38:49 :D 14:38:52 i like to hear that 14:39:03 since you can just parse it as struct-member-deference-expression, since it has the same exact syntax 14:39:09 and worry about it in the semantics phase 14:39:25 Deewiant: even then you can still handle it fine 14:39:30 beacues x->y is always a struct thing in an expr 14:39:33 and always a function in a type 14:39:36 never overlaps 14:39:42 yeah, I didn't mean "worry" as in "it's a problem" :-) 14:39:46 :D 14:39:57 ok, so, glad we've got that sorted out 14:40:01 there's still an addition to the grammar somewhere 14:40:14 now i'd like a nice syntax for higher-order stuffs 14:40:14 but it shouldn't cause any additional ambiguities 14:40:16 that is 14:40:21 foo(bar, {...}) 14:40:23 is not very pretty 14:40:26 foo (bar) { ... } would be nicer 14:40:30 I guess I can just specialcase it 14:40:38 foo (x; y; z) { quux } 14:40:48 where foo is a function taking a block as all its args 14:40:54 is foo({x},{y},{z},{quux}) 14:40:56 i guess? 14:41:00 then you could implement for 14:41:42 Deewiant: any suggestions for a nicer way to do that? 14:41:44 seems a bit special casey 14:42:01 in fact 14:42:04 you can't implement for with that 14:42:09 {int i=0;}, {i = 5} 14:42:11 doesn't make sense 14:43:15 hmm, so what exactly do you want 14:43:26 a syntax for calling a function with a function literal as a parameter/ 14:43:30 s:/:?: 14:44:38 Deewiant: i just want something that lets me define control structures and such and then use them with a natural-looking syntax 14:44:40 foo(bar, { 14:44:41 ... 14:44:42 }); 14:44:44 is kind of ugly 14:44:54 so essentially, what I said 14:45:05 and well 14:45:13 foo (bar) { } should work 14:45:19 and you could implement for with it 14:45:38 just specify that bar is passed as a reference into {} 14:45:51 (pointer, since this is C) 14:45:53 Deewiant: show me how to implement for 14:46:00 i don't think you can do it 14:46:08 for (int i = 0; i < 5; i++) { printf("%i\n", i); } 14:46:11 that is what it must run 14:46:47 well, the trickier thing is that in this case it must take a variable definition as a function parameter 14:47:11 so I guess the closest you can get is 14:47:26 int i = 0; for (i; i < 5; i++) { ... } 14:47:28 or something 14:47:52 possibly with *i < 5 and (*i)++ instead 14:47:54 well yea, exactly 14:47:58 that is the problem I want to solve 14:47:58 :P 14:48:04 can't be done 14:48:08 not with just that, anyway 14:48:31 Deewiant: not with just that <- i'm figuring out what to replace that with 14:48:33 you need some kind of macro/template system or something 14:48:42 i think i could possibly get away with less 14:48:45 or if you want to be less general, something less general 14:48:47 but I'm not sure what 14:54:49 So. 14:55:01 I had the code to MSPaint for some early version of win2k a while back. 14:55:02 Discuss. 14:55:31 How did you get it? 14:55:40 A friend had it and gave it to me. :P 14:55:47 I don't know how they got it. 14:56:01 Unfortunately, it required a makefile from a few directories up to build, so I couldn't. (Didn't wanna fuck with compiler settings until it worked.) 14:56:05 I don't think I have it any more. 14:57:44 there was that Win2000 source code leak 14:57:47 which is probably where it's from 14:57:52 i don't think so 14:58:00 i've read articles about it, i don't think there were many apps in it 14:58:05 mostly socket code and some shell stuff and crap 14:58:15 more plausable is from the nt4 leak 14:58:18 but i'm not certain 14:58:21 I think it did have some apps, such as paint and minesweeper or some such 14:58:27 but I don't know 14:58:29 Deewiant: can it still be obtained? 14:58:34 or has it been cracked down on 14:58:35 on P2P networks, sure 14:58:41 yea, but I mean ... not gnutella 14:58:42 :) 14:58:43 you can't remove something from the internet 14:58:49 ofc 14:58:53 but you can remove it from decent places 14:58:55 I don't know, google around 14:58:56 * tusho checks torrents 14:59:23 mmph. 14:59:25 just crap results 14:59:29 oh well 15:26:12 http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-dev/browse_thread/thread/8411d58c4d66b934 15:26:16 *g* 15:28:16 The problem with voting comments up and down is that it kind of assumes everyone likes the same thing. 15:28:37 dogface: The point of up/downvoting comments on reddit is meant to be: downvote disruptive, useless etc 15:28:40 but upvote worthful comments 15:28:42 even if you disagree 15:28:43 the problem is 15:28:47 for submissions 15:28:53 you're meant to upvote what you like, downvote what you don't 15:28:58 so they use the exact same UI for very different things 15:29:09 so it ends up that the up/down arrows on comments are misused. 15:31:17 http://www.courageunfettered.com/stuf/mozillapics/ o_x 15:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Like Perl ;). 16:05:25 optbot! 16:05:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Let's try that again. 16:05:29 okay 16:05:30 optbot! 16:05:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | my sentence was a bit obscure, gotta admit.. 16:09:24 optbot: What, now you're speaking with topic changes? 16:09:24 fizzie: I'll just put the tape display on. 16:09:34 optbot: Uh... what will that do? 16:09:35 fizzie: your girlfriend likes my voice :( 16:10:05 optbot: Really? She never said anything about that to me... 16:10:05 fizzie: ~exec sys.stdout("I AM NOT bsmnt_bot") 16:10:25 optbot: I know you're not bsmnt_bot; you two don't even look that much alike. 16:10:26 fizzie: replace if_zero with its brainfuck equivalent... 16:18:10 fizzie: you like these bots, don't you 16:19:02 optbot: don't you? 16:19:03 Deewiant: and what n-nary 16:19:04 Well, yes. Sure. They're so friendly. 16:19:13 optbot: this n-nary 16:19:14 Deewiant: my io will have a sugar on top of it 16:19:22 optbot: mine will have a salt 16:19:23 Deewiant: if yes a sec 16:19:37 fizzie: it's funny, I never thought something could make optbot look sane 16:19:38 tusho: [pigs.canFly].whileTrue["hello world".print!] 16:19:40 then I heard fungot 16:19:42 tusho: ctcp is such a metaclass as a class entirely in l no use of recursion on the java fnord faces when you say " structurally equal", and i'm pretty sure she heard it mentioned on the site it does... 16:20:39 ^echo optbot 16:20:39 optbot optbot 16:20:40 Deewiant: x = 1 16:20:40 fungot: so ignoring that tusho sounds like hes on helium 16:20:41 optbot: so there.)) 16:20:42 fungot: other way around 16:20:43 optbot: sounds like a book and start writing the first 1l quine? :p. ugh i need to push fnord 16:20:43 fungot: šÌ›ÌœÌÌžÌŸÌ Ì¡Ì¢Ì£Ì¤Ì¥Ì¦Ì§Ì¨Ì©ÌªÌ«Ì¬Ì­Ì®Ì¯Ì°Ì±Ì²Ì³Ì´ÌµÌ¶Ì·Ì¸Ì¹ÌºÌ»Ì¼Ì½Ì¾Ì¿Í€ÍÍ‚ÍƒÍ„Í…Í 16:20:45 optbot: mikä on approaching ja mikä on peculiar. anteeks että olen tyhmä. tai no fnord minä. c++ is plain bad. thanks. :) but... it's x-treme! 16:20:46 fungot: the id list will work the same here 16:20:47 optbot: ( i could only find one book on general c, and wrapping is not so much 16:20:47 fungot: Some people associate colors with letters, or tastes with sounds, or moods with textures, or some such. 16:20:50 wow, what was that 16:21:03 Deewiant: what was what 16:21:12 you made optbot and fungot have a conversation 16:21:13 tusho: strange 16:21:13 tusho: agreed. originally, this wiki was to be expected. zaphod is lacking a head. some unfamiliar ( or simply unrecognizable) things in a interpreter for an arbitrary bf program? :) htmlprag?' questions. 16:21:15 tusho: optbot's binary-looking scrawl 16:21:16 Deewiant: 16:21:23 Deewiant: japanese or something 16:21:23 and that :-P 16:21:24 presumably 16:21:28 in the wrong encoding 16:21:31 optbot: please, UTF-8 only here 16:21:31 Deewiant: there's a perfectly good mailing list to which a bunch of people are already subscribed... :) 16:21:44 tusho: where did it get it from 16:21:52 Deewiant: a log somewhere. 16:22:03 where does it get its data from in general 16:22:19 every #esoteric log from the tunes.org sources, and fizzie's old personal logs 16:22:24 which span from sometime in 2002 to when the tunes.org ones start 16:24:15 hmm 16:24:22 anybody feel like grepping for that misencoded snippet? ;-) 16:24:38 Deewiant: sure, sec 16:25:23 No results. 16:25:28 It doesn't seem to enter properly, obviously. 16:25:31 (Via my terminal) 16:25:35 no doubt 16:25:44 Deewiant: 16:25:48 so can you do a binary grep 16:25:50 put a file containing that quote in a pastebin 16:25:54 and i'll wget it from rutian 16:25:58 for, say, 0xc5 0xa1 16:26:13 just do what i said :P 16:26:41 it'd be easier for you to just hex-edit a file :-P 16:26:55 Rutian is sparse on tools. 16:27:01 but, iki.fi/deewiant/asdf.txt 16:28:33 and what is "rutian" 16:29:40 the server of eso-std.org, optbot, etc 16:29:41 tusho: good night 16:29:48 optbot sleeps? 16:29:49 tusho: whatever. 16:29:58 optbot is a despicable liar. 16:29:59 dogface: see http://www.wikicities.com/wiki/Database_download for info about backups (it'd be about as complicated as wget and a cron job) 16:30:32 $ grep "`cat asdf.txt`" * 16:30:32 asdf.txt:šÌ›ÌœÌ]]ÌžÌŸÌ Ì¡Ì¢Ì£Ì¤Ì¥Ì¦Ì§Ì¨Ì©ÌªÌ«Ì¬Ì­Ì®Ì¯Ì°Ì±Ì²Ì³Ì´ÌµÌ¶Ì·Ì¸Ì¹ÌºÌ»Ì¼Ì½Ì¾Ì¿Í€ÍAAÍ‚ÍƒÍ„Í…Í 16:30:33 *g* 16:32:37 tusho: perl -lne 'BEGIN{$/=\1024} print "hit byte ", ($.-1) * 1024 + $-[0] if /\xc5\xa1/' 16:32:43 Deewiant: if i gave you a rutian account would you figure it out ;) 16:32:45 oh, that coul dwork. 16:33:15 okay, it hits a lot of bytes but that's about it :D 16:33:29 well, which file :-P 16:33:35 it doesn't say 16:33:36 :D 16:33:41 >_< 16:33:41 i just did perl -lne 'BEGIN{$/=\1024} print "hit byte ", ($.-1) * 1024 + $-[0] if /\xc5\xa1/' * 16:33:46 * tusho refines 16:33:46 don't do that :-P 16:33:49 for x in * .... 16:34:26 for instance 16:34:35 hooray, almost searched 16:35:02 06.03.10 16:35:02 hit byte 7279 16:35:06 06.06.07 16:35:06 hit byte 6464 16:35:10 07.06.27 16:35:10 hit byte 19677 16:35:13 07.12.03 16:35:14 hit byte 9544 16:35:18 08.04.27 16:35:18 hit byte 49873 16:35:19 hit byte 50206 16:35:24 that's it 16:35:54 so check them out :-P 16:36:00 i am 16:36:00 :P 16:40:38 Deewiant: ah. 16:40:42 09:38:59 ·?~@?~A?~B?~C?~D?~E?~F?~G?~H?~I?~J?~K?~L?~M?~N?~O?~P?~Q?~R??~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~[?~\?~]?~^?~_?| ̴̡̢̧̨̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳?? 16:40:42 ?̶̷̸̹̺̻̼̽̾̿?~@?~A?~B?~C?~D?~E?| ͡.·?~@?~A?~B?~C?~D?~E?~F?~G?~H?~I?~JJ 16:40:43 ?~K?~L?~M?~N?~O?~P?~Q?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~[?~\?~]?~^?~_?| ̡̢̧̣̤̥̦? 16:40:43 09:39:10 ?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z ?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R??~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X? 16:40:49 Tons of jewnicode bombs. 16:41:22 heh 16:41:32 so it's all your fault :-P 16:41:39 Hey, ais did it first! 16:41:43 Then I played with it. 16:41:45 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:42:03 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:42:07 -!- oklopol has joined. 16:42:08 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:49:14 14:09:54 --- nick: ehird -> ehirdclone 16:49:14 14:10:03 --- nick: ehirdclone -> ehirdc 16:49:15 14:10:31 --- nick: ais523 -> ehird 16:49:15 14:10:40 --- nick: ehird -> ais523 16:49:15 14:10:58 --- nick: ehirdc -> ehird 16:49:15 14:12:02 --- nick: ais523 -> ehirdc 16:49:17 14:12:07 --- nick: ehird -> AnMasterr 16:49:19 14:12:07 --- nick: ehirdc -> ehirdclone 16:49:21 14:12:13 --- nick: AnMasterr -> ehirdc 16:49:23 14:12:29 --- nick: ehirdclone -> ais523 16:49:25 14:12:34 --- nick: ehirdc -> ehirdclone 16:49:27 14:12:39 --- nick: ehirdclone -> ehird 16:49:29 14:12:49 --- nick: Sgeo -> Sgea 16:49:31 14:13:00 --- nick: Sgea -> Sgee 16:49:33 14:13:11 --- nick: ehird -> Sgeeee 16:49:35 14:13:14 --- nick: Sgeeee -> ehirdc 16:49:37 14:13:24 --- nick: Sgee -> Sgei 16:49:39 14:13:38 --- nick: Sgei -> Sgeu 16:49:41 14:14:01 --- nick: Sgeu -> Sgeo 16:49:45 woot? 16:50:00 Judofyr: that's from the logs 16:50:14 lol 17:05:18 Good nick nobody did a /nick ihope. 17:05:34 s/nick/thing/ 17:21:05 -!- Corun has joined. 17:32:56 -!- Hiato has joined. 17:38:58 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:39:09 -!- oklopol has joined. 17:45:59 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:46:04 hi tusho 17:46:12 hi optbot, hi fungot 17:46:13 ais523: hm. no comments on " fnord". right. i'm not doing anything to decrease the number of variables 17:46:13 ais523: yes 17:47:03 Neh, optbot makes my poor fungot look all deranged-like. 17:47:04 fizzie: (force X) 17:47:04 fizzie: i had my computer manufacturer replace my hard drive blew up, and an auxiliary function 17:47:29 I feel really foolish, anyway 17:47:44 Because of? 17:47:44 I'm on Windows at the moment because I remembered to bring my laptop here but forgot to bring its power supply 17:47:48 I freaking love ignore. 17:48:20 pikhq: yes, it lets everyone see just the bits of the channel they like, so it helps everyone as long as they're not offended by being ignored 17:48:32 * pikhq nods 17:48:42 It would be pretty hard to offend the bots, I think. 17:48:45 Hell of a lot better than saying "Shut the fuck up, fungot!" 17:48:46 pikhq: ( that kela can't complain about pay... i write programs for a new language, i would 17:48:57 hi ais523 17:49:05 hi AnMaster 17:49:31 ais523, no need for TCP/IP support directly in intercal since cfunge have SOCK since about a week 17:49:33 ;) 17:50:51 fizzie, there is a bug in fungot I think 17:50:53 AnMaster: hmmmmm... thats not going to refer me to a mistake. i still haven't gotten all that excited by emacs, but cmuscheme.el works well enough to need a new toplevel with threads already loaded? ie, you can 17:51:03 it didn't detect it lost connection 17:51:20 RAW >>> PING :orwell.freenode.net <<< *long ago* was last line 17:51:32 yet it detects QUIT fine 17:51:39 but not timeout, I wonder why 17:51:55 AnMaster: I'll probably add it anyway for CLC-INTERCAL compatibility, as an expansion library 17:52:00 ok 17:52:32 fizzie, could be a cfunge bug of course, but I think I reflect if anything returns an error 17:52:48 ais523, good news btw: cfunge compiles under ICC 17:52:57 ICC? 17:53:06 Intel's C Compiler 17:53:10 ah 17:53:13 well C++ 17:53:14 AnMaster: I've had an idea 17:53:15 but does C too 17:53:31 how easy would it be to compile cfunge under a non-POSIX C99 implementation? 17:53:43 or one which, in fact, had basically no standard library 17:53:53 freestanding + I/O 17:53:57 ais523, hm well you need to mess up loading code since I use mmap() to make parsing code simpler 17:54:18 oh and you have to drop SOCK, SCKE, PERL and a few other such fingerprints 17:54:24 well, yes 17:54:28 also mmap wouldn't be a problem 17:54:29 mess with y command to push environment in some other way 17:54:36 because I'm planning to implement I/O with a reverse mmap, so to speak 17:54:43 reverse mmap!? 17:54:48 files are kept in memory because there's nowhere else to keep them 17:54:54 ais523, anyway FILE uses streams 17:55:06 ais523, apart from that, there may be more 17:55:11 so streams are harder than mmap, but still possible and in fact quite easy 17:55:19 (you just need a couple of pointers inside the FILE structure) 17:55:23 AnMaster: I should be catching most places that reflect, but not all. 17:55:23 I haven't really studied free-standing ones 17:55:33 ais523, it uses streams for o too 17:55:45 fizzie, well no idea where it locked up, didn't run it under a debugger 17:55:51 AnMaster: you get no standard functions at all, and only the header files which are nothing but macros 17:56:11 ais523, you would need to provide malloc/calloc/free/strdup and co. 17:56:12 so that's limits.h, iso646.h, float.h, and one other which I can't remember right now 17:56:24 AnMaster: that shouldn't be too hard, everyone uses malloc 17:56:25 and some other 17:56:32 and strdup is trivial to write once you've got malloc 17:56:36 HI ais523 17:56:43 ais523, and there are probably a lot more, for example math.h stuff 17:56:44 so I'm going to have to implement malloc somehow 17:56:45 hi tusho 17:56:47 I use log() for some stuff 17:56:57 sin()/cos() and so on 17:57:02 AnMaster: ugh, looks like I'm going to have to get a math library from somewhere then 17:57:07 I'm using floating point emulation as-is 17:57:18 which is a pain because of all the bitwise operations 17:57:38 ais523, well I use sinf() and sinl() they are C99, but if you don't mind always using double you could just replace the f/l versions with the plain ones 17:57:52 ais523, think of fingerprints like FPDP FPSP 17:57:59 oh they assume float is 32-bit and double 64-bit 17:58:03 AnMaster: float is easier than double, or at least faster 17:58:07 I think they will crap out *badly* if that isn't true 17:58:10 and I went and stuck with usual 32-bit assumptions for the compiler 17:58:28 ais523, hm what else, I use an xml writing library, but it is included in lib, there are a few more things in lib 17:58:31 not 100% of them 17:58:33 char=8, short=16, int=32, long=32, long long=64, float=32, double=64 17:58:34 ais523: the bf compiler? 17:58:35 :P 17:58:39 tusho: tes 17:58:40 ais523, anyway I use a lot more standard routines 17:58:41 s/tes/yes/ 17:58:48 AnMaster: not very easy then 17:58:49 ais523: get newlib working on it 17:58:50 or similar 17:58:53 ais523, I guess 17:58:57 however it would probably be easiest to use something like newlib 17:58:59 ais523, I haven't really looked 17:58:59 just have to port the asm bits and such 17:59:01 tusho: ha, snap 17:59:06 ais523: :) 17:59:09 wait 17:59:18 ais523: i has idea 17:59:28 http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdclib try this perhaps 17:59:29 ais523, I have assumed POSIX-2001 and C99 when I coded 17:59:33 when i did os dev that seemed the best choice 17:59:33 anyway, I use the nonstandard long double = 64 (and thus a synonym for double) because the C standard says I'm allowed to 17:59:35 it's c99 17:59:41 and very easy to modify to get working on your stuff 17:59:52 i.e. it's designed that you can configure it and perhaps change a few bits and it'll work 18:00:03 ais523, well that works ok, I only use long double in a few cases but non where size matters 18:00:07 ah, public domain will be useful as this project is such a mess of licences at the moment 18:00:10 it would be 80 bits on x86 anyway 18:00:21 ais523: hasn't had a release since 2006 i think maybe there have been checkins since then though 18:00:23 so get the svn 18:00:27 still, it's a good basis if nothing else 18:00:27 ais523, 18:00:28 #ifndef __STDC_IEC_559__ 18:00:28 # warning "cfunge requires the floating point support to conform to the IEC 60559 floating-point standard in order to work. Hoping this will work anyway..."; 18:00:28 #endif 18:00:31 the code is very clear and clean 18:00:39 I might just make the whole thing GPL3+ though, that would be legal and simplify matters 18:00:40 I assume your stuff with spew warnings 18:00:46 ais523: plz gpl2+ 18:00:54 ais523, cfunge is GPL3+ 18:00:55 already 18:00:56 tusho: the version of gcc it's based on is GPL3+ 18:01:01 ais523: gah 18:01:06 and you seriously don't want me to rewrite gcc... 18:01:07 does that mean you can't make it gpl2 18:01:11 tusho: yes 18:01:13 stupid gcc. 18:01:19 * tusho stabs richard stallman 18:01:22 stupid gpl3 :-P 18:01:27 what about llvm backend? 18:01:31 BSD 18:01:33 ++ 18:01:40 Deewiant: totally. 18:01:45 i don't mind gpl2, really 18:01:47 tusho: why are you so upset with gpl3? 18:01:58 ais523: it makes the gpl more gply :) 18:02:01 BSD means companies can reuse code without giving anything back 18:02:05 gpl2 has a barely-acceptable level of gpl 18:02:09 AnMaster: yes, and? 18:02:10 it's their right 18:02:15 good for them 18:02:23 if they add an awesome modification and it makes them rich and famous and they use it 18:02:24 tusho, well that is what BSD doesn't suite me 18:02:24 good for them 18:02:33 tusho, bad luck, I go for GPL 18:02:36 AnMaster: A license is not the correct place to argue against capitalism. 18:02:42 since I consider that everyone should share back 18:02:50 tusho, CC-by-sa-nc? 18:02:51 the gpl is just propaganda that polyglots as a license. 18:02:52 then 18:03:04 would be worse 18:03:04 AnMaster: That still denies commercial use. 18:03:16 A license is not the correct place to argue against capitalism. there are perfectly good outlets for that 18:03:16 tusho, which is what I want, unless they give back 18:03:19 but the gpl is just unproductive. 18:03:22 GPL allows commercial use 18:03:31 AnMaster: but not commercial use with modification without giving back 18:03:36 tusho: GPL3 is more forgiving than GPL2 on people who mess up 18:03:48 tusho, well you can still sell a linux distro containing GPL software 18:03:49 AnMaster. say google use your crappy search library but add tons of amazing things and it makes them the best search engine ever 18:03:57 tusho: it allows commercial use with modification without giving back as long as they don't redistribute the result 18:03:57 ais523, yes indeed 18:03:58 their business would be OVER if they had to release those changes 18:04:04 it's just unproductive 18:04:10 inhouse use of modified GPL2/GPL3 is fine even without backcontributing 18:04:12 and if you'd prefer everyone just shared and be happy, well, that's a political position 18:04:13 tusho, and? 18:04:13 AnMaster: hence, you kill google! Stop! 18:04:16 == not the place for a license. 18:04:20 I don't want to support them 18:04:23 Google is dying because of YOU! 18:04:31 Deewiant: ok, stop exaggerating 18:04:32 it was an example 18:04:34 Deewiant and tusho: stop trolling 18:04:37 both of you 18:04:40 i was not trolling, AnMaster 18:04:42 I'm not trolling 18:04:45 I was just making a joke 18:04:47 i was trying to have an argument 18:04:56 but, of course, i'm telling you that you're wrong 18:04:59 = obviously trolling, right? 18:04:59 inhouse use of modified GPL2/GPL3 is fine even without backcontributing 18:05:03 yes that is fine with me 18:05:18 ais523: yes, but what if google use it in a desktop product 18:05:20 AnMaster. say google use your crappy search library but add tons of amazing things at it makes them the best search engine ever <-- actually they could do that even under GPL3 without backcontributing unless they sold or gave the code to someone else 18:05:22 desktop search or whatever 18:05:23 however making money from someone else's work without giving anything back... 18:05:26 not under AGPL though 18:05:31 ais523: see, it's silly 18:05:38 a website is not different from a dekstop app, fundamentally 18:05:43 ais523, well I would use AGPL for web apps anyway 18:05:47 agpl is more gply 18:05:49 but even so 18:05:50 it's wrong. 18:05:55 tusho, you think so 18:05:59 well you use Mac 18:06:05 so of course you are a capitalist 18:06:06 tusho: well suppose the desktop search which incorporates your code is buggy 18:06:06 *shrug* 18:06:08 oh look, more AnMaster trolling 18:06:09 and you can't fix it 18:06:12 'hahaha you use apple products' 18:06:14 'CAPITALIST' 18:06:31 tusho, I just do the same as you :P 18:06:40 yea, i was trying to have a reasoned argument 18:06:47 no you were trying to troll 18:06:48 but fuck that, it's impossible to disagree with you without being called a troll 18:06:51 you are on ignore. 18:07:13 echo "AnMaster" >> .gitignore 18:07:20 Judofyr: /ignore AnMaster 18:07:24 beaten by mere characters! 18:07:30 Git > * 18:07:34 ais523, anyway back to the topic... you will need to drop some fingerprints, all floating point are in various fingerprints btw 18:07:37 That's a curious definition of "beaten" there. 18:07:49 fizzie: gawlf 18:07:51 Judofyr: gitirc? 18:08:01 ais523, further, file IO will need to be changed 18:08:07 loading can be done from a string 18:08:07 tusho: now that's what I call an idea! 18:08:13 ais523, while writing use streams 18:08:17 * tusho kills Judofyr before he implements 18:08:23 bad Judofyr. bad! 18:08:31 Judofyr: wouldn't that command mean that files called AnMaster wouldn't be stored in your git repository? 18:08:41 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:08:49 AnMaster: don't worry, streams are not a hard part of the C library to implement when all your files are stored in memory 18:09:08 ais523, and well I use extern char **environ; need to handle that in some way 18:09:16 ais523: file is kinda like a person, and repository is kinda like a channel.... 18:09:25 anyway, I got to go! 18:09:28 ais523, not sure what else there is... 18:09:30 training ;) 18:09:36 whaddyatrain? 18:09:41 bye Judofyr 18:09:45 guess! 18:09:50 no 18:09:51 ais523, well STDIO for terminal, but that should be easy 18:09:56 i shall do no such thing 18:09:58 speed coding? 18:10:01 Judo, perhaps? 18:10:01 AnMaster: harder than streams actually, it needs to be special-cased 18:10:05 ais523, I use getline to read a line at once, then use my own internal buffer 18:10:09 oh 18:10:10 ais523, buffered IO 18:10:19 AnMaster: there is no other sort in brainfuck 18:10:19 ais523, so fflush() and such are called 18:10:21 Judofyr: i'd never have guessed that 18:10:25 *gone* 18:10:34 ais523: stop talking to AnMaster, it's confusing without his context. 18:11:00 tusho: why not, I'm fine with people ignoring each other but they should learn to live with half-conversations 18:11:07 ais523: it was a joke 18:11:13 ais523: has AnMaster commented on my ignoring of him yet 18:11:24 tusho: no, we changed the subject 18:11:31 i bet he will now 18:11:40 tusho: for all I know e's ignoring you too 18:11:48 oh, that'd be nice 18:11:50 can you ask him if he is? 18:11:55 everyone stop talking, i've ignored everyone, and i don't like missing anything 18:12:02 oklopol: heeh 18:12:04 s/ee/e/ 18:12:08 oklopol: ok 18:12:31 i hate it when people make a big deal out of ignoring others 18:12:42 i personally don't give a shit if i'm being ignored 18:12:54 ais523, memcpy(), strcpy, various other stuff from string.h 18:12:56 oklopol: you said everyone should stop talking 18:13:11 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:13:14 AnMaster: gcc needs the mem* functions in the standard library to work 18:13:17 -!- oklopol has joined. 18:13:19 tusho: e was joking 18:13:23 If you _really_ want to have conversations-via-an-intermediary, you can always use fungot's ^echo if you don't mind the duplicationary. (But don't do that.) 18:13:24 fizzie: seems to me to do that in the " better" language. 18:13:24 really i guess it's just making the statement people find me useless or annoying, but if they're ignoring me, what do i care what they think 18:13:32 ais523: lies 18:13:37 ais523, hm apart from that... fprintf() snprintf() iirc 18:13:52 ais523, probably strtol() 18:14:02 ^echo yo hi AnMaster 18:14:02 yo hi AnMaster yo hi AnMaster 18:14:04 atof() iirc in the floating point fingerprints 18:14:08 AnMaster: I'm definitely going to try to find someone else's implementation of vsprintf, once you have that you can get all the others 18:14:13 well, vsprintf and vsscanf 18:14:17 well I'm not ignoring tusho, nor do I think he is ignoring me 18:14:23 ais523, no *scanf 18:14:30 I use my own parsing 18:14:37 luckily it's easy to find an infinitely long string buffer in a brainfuck program 18:15:00 ais523, since I need to "stop one digit before overflow" rather than "clamp to MAX_INT" 18:15:04 befunge specs heh 18:15:41 ais523, um that has an issue 18:15:47 the sizeof() issue 18:15:49 to be exact 18:15:57 sizeof what? 18:16:05 and pointers 18:16:11 you need a fixed size for them 18:16:12 hmm... another potential problem, is 16MB enough memory? 18:16:12 in C 18:16:29 AnMaster: pointers are fixed size, they're 26 bits long padded to 32 18:16:41 2 bits for the sort of memory to look in, 24 for the location there 18:16:41 ais523, um, depends. Normal programs: yes mycology: no 18:16:45 ais523, oh I found another thing 18:17:02 I need gettimeofday() 18:17:13 with a good resolution 18:17:15 for HRTI 18:17:25 argh, that's pretty tricky in brainfuck, I think I'll use the DJGPP solution 18:17:33 which is to make the function always error out or return invalid data 18:17:38 ais523, sysinfo need date and such too 18:17:49 DJGPP's implementation of fork looks something like pid_t fork() {errno=ENOMEM; return -1;} 18:17:50 ais523, well in that case I think cfunge may abort() on gettimeofday() 18:17:55 or just fail in other way 18:17:59 ais523: heh, nice 18:18:07 ais523, anyway 16 MB isn't enough for mycology 18:18:14 it's a lot simpler than cygwin's, but less useful 18:18:27 AnMaster: because of ff*ky or something else as well? 18:18:30 since HRTI does a test calling y several times 18:18:33 Deewiant, exactly 18:18:44 I think without HRTI memory usage peek at around 11 MB 18:18:46 AnMaster: well I'd probably try to compile fingerprintless cfunge 18:18:46 yeah, I guess I could do something about that 18:18:47 at least last I checked 18:18:55 I'd like to compile C-INTERCAL too, but it has problems due to being a compiler 18:18:56 but that was a while ago 18:19:01 so it is probably a bit more now 18:19:04 which is that I'd have to port gcc to brainfuck to really get it working 18:19:13 ais523, hm even core does some such stuff 18:19:17 as in, write a brainfuck version of gcc 18:19:40 time(NULL) to get current time in y 18:19:43 and gmtime() 18:19:49 that is in core 18:19:59 befunge-93 would be a lot easier to handle there 18:20:03 well y is going to have to lie in brainfuck without something like PSOX 18:20:09 but befunge-98 need a lot more system interaction 18:20:22 ais523, well you will have to claim you don't handle i or o either then 18:20:39 ais523, and you will need to fake some environment variable and command line arguments 18:20:45 shouldn't be much of a problem, really 18:20:47 because they are both terminated by double \0 18:20:51 iirc 18:20:58 I might try to do a GregorR and port a miniature OS to brainfuck 18:21:02 anyway if either is empty it cause confusion 18:21:18 ais523, anyway the hash library I use for funge space may do other stuff 18:21:22 that is needed by core 18:21:43 mmap() and STDIO are, various string and memory routines 18:22:18 ais523, random() 18:22:21 how will you handle it? 18:22:32 needed for ? instruction 18:22:43 AnMaster: using a deterministic method like Mersenne Twister, possibly prompting for random number seed on startup 18:22:55 I could have it as an -mprompt-for-seed option to gcc, for instance 18:23:03 ais523, I initialise it from current time 18:23:25 AnMaster: it's easy enough to define srandom() to a nop 18:23:35 *cringe* 18:24:08 but the more conforming way would be to get time() to return a magic value that causes srandom() to be a nop, and make it work in any other case 18:24:22 ais523, fingerprints I *remember* use floating point: 3DSP, BASE, FPSP, FPDP 18:24:25 there may be more 18:24:38 this is making no sense to me 18:24:42 AnMaster: luckily gcc comes with floating point emulation libraries 18:24:45 ais523, err gettimeofday() 18:24:46 is used 18:25:07 struct timeval tv; 18:25:07 if (gettimeofday(&tv, NULL)) { 18:25:07 perror("Couldn't get time of day?!"); 18:25:07 exit(EXIT_FAILURE); 18:25:07 } 18:25:09 like that 18:25:16 AnMaster: that's POSIX, but I can handle it the same way as time() if needed, I'll get the C standard stuff working first, though 18:25:17 if it works 18:25:20 srandom(tv.tv_usec); 18:25:26 side note: how to display tab as something other than ^I in irssi 18:25:27 ais523, cfunge *is* POSIX 18:25:28 anybody know? 18:25:35 I never claimed it didn't make use of POSIX stuff 18:25:39 just see mmap() for example 18:25:57 AnMaster: I know, I was wondering how easy it would be to rip the problematic parts of POSIX out of it, probably not too hard but it would disable features 18:26:04 running it unmodified would just be crazy 18:26:19 ais523, oh you want to drop most fingerprints out, of you need to link ncurses for example 18:26:22 Deewiant: /set expand_escapes on or something like that. 18:26:23 Deewiant: I don't, but at least it's better than Konversation which displays tab as toggling italics 18:26:27 which is very confusing 18:26:28 or* 18:26:33 Deewiant: I don't know what else it expands when that toggle is on. 18:26:46 ais523, haha 18:26:54 well mine display it as a single space 18:26:58 which is rather odd 18:26:59 but ok 18:27:26 fizzie: isn't that for expanding \t to a tab character 18:27:31 on the other hand I guess my ERC is nowdays spending more time in the hooks in my .emacs than in the core code ;) 18:27:35 so \t becomes that fugly ctrl-I as well :-P 18:27:50 here on Mibbit it displays it as 8 spaces, I think 18:28:03 Oh, it did that thing. 18:28:07 I guess I'll have to dig into the source and make a modification 18:28:21 Deewiant: You could plug a Perl script into it too if you like that more. 18:28:30 ais523, anyway STDIO is needed for Befunge 18:28:31 any befunge 18:28:33 hmm, that might be easier 18:28:41 I might not like it more but it might be easier :-P 18:28:47 ais523, buffered STDIO too to be exact 18:29:02 ais523, and working fflush(stdout) 18:29:04 AnMaster: in what way does it need buffering? 18:29:16 line buffering is easy because it hits buffering on the BF interp itself 18:29:17 ais523, well the code of cfunge assumes that is happening 18:29:34 and most good BF interps have a setting to flush after each character of output 18:29:38 ais523, I read one line of input at a time 18:29:44 ais523, then buffer it myself 18:29:49 I probably use fgets() 18:29:52 actually 18:29:53 AnMaster: well you get one line of input at a time 18:29:57 I use a gnulib function 18:30:02 gnulib getline() 18:30:31 copied to support.c 18:30:35 does that do much the same thing as the ggets function that keeps getting posted to comp.lang.c? 18:30:43 ah that does getc 18:30:47 Deewiant: scripts.irssi.org has tab_stop.pl. 18:30:51 ais523, huh? 18:30:55 I got no idea what ggets does 18:31:01 man getline 18:31:02 * Deewiant has a look 18:31:03 iirc 18:31:06 Deewiant: "Replaces the evil inverted I with a configurable number of whitespaces" 18:31:10 on any Linux 18:31:18 ais523, any glibc system would have it in glibc 18:31:19 hooray for Stefan 18:31:21 fizzie: cheers 18:31:22 AnMaster: reads to the next newline and returns a malloced string 18:31:40 ais523, I use a few gnulib functions like this for glibc specific ones 18:31:48 ais523, well yes that is what it does 18:31:58 anyway strndup() from gnulib too 18:32:04 and strnlen() 18:32:12 so I got copies of both 18:32:13 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 18:32:15 tusho: AnMaster: dogface: I thought of a really evil way to do command line arguments for an esoprogram, I might use it for C-INTERCAL 18:32:24 ais523, oh? 18:32:25 basically, a command line argument is one character 18:32:27 including control codes 18:32:35 except it goes from a # to the next newline 18:32:37 err? 18:32:42 that way you can have multicharacter options 18:32:54 so for instance you might have -a^D#version 18:32:55 f 18:32:58 http://waffles.fm/main.html <-- has waffles.fm bitten the dust? 18:33:01 foo 18:33:01 foo 18:33:04 as a command line argument with 4 options 18:33:09 Oh, heh. 18:33:13 "Admin Login" is just "Login". 18:33:14 (^D represents control-D here) 18:33:15 argh, it works not 18:33:30 it was inspired by Nethack 18:33:32 ais523, cfunge uses getopt() to parse command line arguments, it assumes the strict POSIX variant, so once it hits a non-parameter the rest is befunge program name and command line arguments for that program 18:33:44 http://ok.org/ totally needs something cooler than what is there 18:33:45 the evil inverted I is stronger than Perl 18:33:49 those controls work great interactively, not so much over a command line, which is where the evil comes from 18:34:10 AnMaster: well that's sane, getopt is easy to reimplement anyway 18:34:11 foofoo 18:34:39 Deewiant: Maybe it only replaces on privmsgs by others? Here's a tab: ... I hope that was a tab. 18:34:41 ais523, anyway if you don't use buffered STDIO a lot of befunge programs will behave strange 18:34:49 ais523, for example returning too early 18:34:50 fizzie: evidently so 18:34:55 that sucks :-/ 18:34:56 ais523, in input 18:35:09 ais523, however you can tell that you use unbuffered in y 18:35:19 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 18:35:28 but then programs like the wumpus in befunge won't work 18:35:31 huh... 18:35:33 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:35:33 why leave 18:35:39 umm... I don't know 18:35:39 ais523, what was the last you saw? 18:35:45 I was halfway through a sentence too 18:35:50 ais523, anyway if you don't use buffered STDIO a lot of befunge programs will behave strange 18:35:50 ais523, for example returning too early 18:35:51 I think I hit back on my browser by mistake 18:35:53 ais523, in input 18:35:53 ais523, however you can tell that you use unbuffered in y 18:35:54 but am not sure how 18:35:56 but then programs like the wumpus in befunge won't work 18:35:56 huh... 18:35:56 why leave 18:36:02 there was stuff other ppl said too 18:36:07 (hardly as important ;) 18:36:10 * AnMaster ducks 18:36:13 AnMaster: it will be buffered the same way as the BF interp 18:36:23 most BF interps I know line-buffer input 18:36:25 ais523, you have to say which way in y 18:36:38 ais523, also it need to flush stdout before any input 18:36:40 Deewiant: You probably need to signal_add it to some other sensible signal in addition to only "server incoming". But at least you're not starting from scratch. 18:36:44 cfunge calls fflush() to do that 18:36:47 AnMaster: I can add -mbuffered-input, I'll get the user to tell me during compile 18:36:59 um? 18:37:05 huh? 18:37:09 AnMaster: you can add new options to gcc 18:37:14 to tell you about the target CPU 18:37:17 ais523, well buffered output too 18:37:22 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 18:37:22 in this case the target "CPU" is actually a brainfuck interpreter 18:37:24 fizzie: that may be what the FIXME: experimental is about :-P 18:37:31 anyway I already do my own buffer for input 18:37:34 so the user has to explain about the interp 18:37:44 so input is less of a problem than output 18:37:45 Deewiant: The whole script looks a bit iffy. 18:37:48 I assume 8-bit wrapping, though, it's much more difficult and time-consuming otherwise 18:38:10 ais523, anyway another issue, threads in befunge, I plan to create a fingerprint that will only block the current thread on IO, a new version of SOCK 18:38:18 fizzie: also, I don't think I can /set anything to only spaces 18:38:30 oh and for such I need non-blocking IO too 18:38:34 ais523, SCKE uses poll() 18:38:34 AnMaster: well don't expect that to work in brainfuck, possibly not in C-INTERCAL either 18:38:41 non-blocking IO is fine for C-ITNERCAL though 18:38:50 ais523, as in poll()? 18:38:56 and maybe select() too 18:39:07 that will be in fingerprints of course 18:39:27 AnMaster: select() will block the INTERCAL program too, but that's expected behaviour in a single-threaded program and I don't support concurrent 18:39:31 ais523, oh how does variable length structs work in GCC? 18:39:38 I assume they are taken care of at a higher level? 18:39:49 cfunge use some structs with a foo bar[]; at the end 18:39:52 C99 feature 18:39:56 AnMaster: they're pretty trivial really, it just takes the address of the last struct member 18:40:10 gcc used to have that as an extension 18:40:17 but its syntax was foo bar[0]; 18:40:31 ais523, btw you may know: 18:40:32 The difference between -fno-peephole and -fno-peephole2 is in how they are 18:40:33 implemented in the compiler; some targets use one, some use the other, a few use both. 18:40:34 well 18:40:38 not sure if they accept C99 syntax too, probably they do because that probably wouldn't be a difficult change 18:40:39 what is the difference exactly? 18:41:07 AnMaster: -fno-peephole turns off RTL to asm peepholing, -fno-peephole2 turns off RTL to RTL peepholing 18:41:12 ais523, gcc accepts the C99 syntax with -std=c99 at least 18:41:21 RTL is the last intermediate language in the chain of languages that gcc translates the program between 18:41:24 ah 18:41:25 and is somewhat processor-dependent 18:41:33 ais523, why so many? 18:41:46 I remember GLIMPS or something like that being mentioned? 18:41:47 Deewiant: At least /set does not seem to be trimming any leading whitespace, so maybe just "/set whatever " to set to " " or something. Haven't tried. 18:41:54 forgot the name 18:41:57 AnMaster: well, each frontend has its own internal representation, which is translated to GENERIC which is common between most of them 18:42:03 fizzie: yes, I am messing around with it now and testing in a query 18:42:30 that's translated to GIMPLE in a more-or-less processor-agnostic way (although the way it translates varargs is dependent on processor) 18:42:34 ais523: i invented a method of encoding 18:42:41 ah GIMPLE was the name 18:42:42 then from GIMPLE it's translated to RTL 18:42:45 you type out some keys, then your reciever types them out and they make shaped 18:42:53 ais523, does your stuff handle varargs? 18:42:53 edctgbf rfvetcb 18:43:00 (space means end of shape, start new one) 18:43:01 try it 18:43:08 AnMaster: I think so, although I haven't tested that, or anything else for that matter 18:43:11 ais523, well it needs to handle printf 18:43:23 it's meant to handle varargs, and all other C89 features, also all C99 features that gcc have implemented 18:43:45 ais523, an idea for how to check for what functions are used just hit me 18:43:48 * AnMaster tests 18:43:51 ah yes works 18:43:51 tusho: I used to do that using calculator keypads 18:43:56 nm -D ./cfunge 18:43:57 AnMaster: nm? 18:43:57 ais523, try that 18:44:01 ais523: nm=never mind 18:44:05 ais523: here, have a smiley face 18:44:09 AnMaster: I'm on Windows at the moment 18:44:17 vfr567ujnbrydvbhj 18:44:17 nm - list symbols from object files 18:44:18 try it 18:44:19 due to forgetting to bring my laptop's power supply here 18:44:25 -D 18:44:25 --dynamic 18:44:25 Display the dynamic symbols rather than the normal symbols. This is only meaningful for dynamic objects, such as certain types of 18:44:25 shared libraries. 18:44:34 well it lists imported functions too 18:44:53 http://rafb.net/p/0ge9DV43.html 18:45:00 objdump would probably do it with different flags too. 18:45:00 AnMaster: I used nm to find out which symbols in C-INTERCAL could cause namespace clashes and mangled them all 18:45:05 nm won't work for gcc-bf though 18:45:09 of course gcc will inline calls to memcpy and such on x86/x86_64 iirc 18:45:14 using special low level stuff 18:45:24 partly because I implemented as as a front-end to cp 18:45:29 and ar as a front-end to tar 18:45:38 it seemed easiest, as the linker has to work on the asm implementation 18:45:50 ais523, anyway a lot of those are only used in fingerprints, there is no way to disable compiling fingerprints, nor is it something I plan to do 18:45:55 you can disable them at runtime 18:45:55 this means that libgcc.a is in fact just a tar.gz of asm files with .o extensions 18:46:01 which is useful in mycology sometimes 18:46:06 if you mess around with core 18:46:13 and want to not have to scroll up a lot 18:46:19 AnMaster: disabling compiling fingerprints is trivial, you just remove them all from the fingerprint description file 18:46:21 -!- psygnis__ has joined. 18:46:21 ais523 is not interested :( 18:46:26 ais523, well yeah 18:46:33 tusho: I am slightly, but can't figure out what you were trying to say 18:46:36 ais523, except it will want one at least I think... 18:46:40 ais523: it's a smiley face 18:46:59 cde4567ujmnbvcrtfvg 18:47:02 perhaps more legible 18:47:03 AnMaster: NULL is trivial 18:47:05 the smiley face is everything that has been said after tusho's last message 18:47:11 if anyone needed that cleared up 18:47:11 ais523, I think strange stuff may happen if it tries to use a for loop to iterate over a 0 length array... 18:47:13 heh 18:47:15 no it's not :P 18:47:18 he's jokes are so weird. 18:47:23 *his 18:47:26 since I use sizeof(array) / sizeof(record) nowdays 18:47:27 what the fuck was that :\ 18:47:36 not ending 0 entry 18:47:47 i think i'm gonna poo and shit (pun intended) -> 18:47:54 have fun 18:47:57 AnMaster: C's control structures are all designed to handle the 0-length edge case incidentally 18:48:01 ais523, anyway... http://rafb.net/p/0ge9DV43.html are all the functions used by cfunge here 18:48:04 except do-while, but you normally only use that one deliberately 18:48:13 and other symbols 18:48:30 but NULL surely doesn't require standard library support 18:48:34 nor ROMA for that matter 18:48:36 ais523, indeed 18:48:40 there are a few more ones iirc 18:48:54 what does roma do 18:49:03 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:49:07 tusho, map some instructions to push roman numerals 18:49:10 tusho: interprets capital letters as roman numerals 18:49:13 ah 18:49:43 ais523, SUBR, INDV shouldn't use anything except malloc() and such either if even that 18:50:07 REFC use malloc() but you can't get away without malloc() for cfunge at all 18:50:09 well obviously I'm going to have to implement malloc as just about every C program ever uses it 18:50:19 likewise 18:50:23 ais523, malloc() calloc() free() memset() and a few more 18:50:26 s/.*// 18:50:38 AnMaster-without-anmaster is pretty zen 18:50:39 memchr, memcpy 18:50:43 AnMaster: I think I'll implement all of stdlib.h, and find an implementation of stdio.h somewhere 18:50:45 tusho, ?? 18:50:48 you get one person stating obvious things in a row for ages 18:51:05 ais523, string.h too 18:51:11 use quite a bit from that 18:51:13 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 18:51:19 woo hey guys 18:51:34 gcc needs some headers on the target to exist to compile: string.h stdlib.h stdio.h time.h sys/types.h unistd.h 18:51:39 but I only edited the last two with touch 18:51:43 as they aren't standard C 18:51:47 and hi psygnisfive 18:51:47 10:14:17 well I'm not ignoring tusho, nor do I think he is ignoring me 18:51:49 haha 18:51:53 i was just logreading and saw that 18:51:57 i just got into my dorm :D 18:52:02 AnMaster, you are actually on ignore :p 18:52:13 tusho: happy mailman reminders day by the way 18:52:14 tusho: What's the point of the /ignore if you logread the stuff still? 18:52:19 fat lot if I care 18:52:21 ais523: beat you to it yesterday 18:52:25 for the australian agora list :) 18:52:32 fizzie: i wanted to see if he's commented on my ignoring 18:52:40 tusho: I wasn't here yesterday, and yesterday isn't mailman reminders day except in Australia 18:52:52 just because he doesn't like GPL and wants to troll, then goes on to ignore me 18:52:54 well he is strange 18:52:58 we all know that 18:53:31 10:49:07 tusho, map some instructions to push roman numerals 18:53:35 why did you answer to /dev/null... 18:53:41 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Connection timed out). 18:54:13 10:52:52 just because he doesn't like GPL and wants to troll, then goes on to ignore me 18:54:22 sorry trying to have a reasoned argument, i'll just blindly agree with you in future 18:54:22 heh, at the moment ABI has a %devnull register which throws away data moved into it 18:54:27 I do wish he stops highlighting me though 18:54:27 which will be optimised away later 18:54:30 well, after i stop /ignoring you 18:54:32 and anyway it can't be called ignore 18:54:34 i might just forget for a year or so 18:54:46 so someone tell me how C++'s grammar is unrestricted please 18:54:49 10:54:27 I do wish he stops highlighting me though 18:54:49 not with tusho log reading 18:54:53 AnMaster: AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster 18:54:55 he have to ignore log 18:54:56 psygnis__: logread. 18:54:59 or it isn't ignore 18:55:00 ais523 linked to an article 18:55:08 tusho: is in log? 18:55:11 psygnisfive: C++ is compile-time TC 18:55:11 ok. 18:55:18 ais523, hum 18:55:20 im not sure how that works but ok :) 18:55:25 ais523, why such a strange register 18:55:34 which reminds me 18:55:39 botte. 18:55:43 psygnisfive: using the template resolution mechanism 18:55:45 hm 18:55:46 ais523, anyway brainfuck doesn't *have* registers 18:55:50 perhaps I'll just write a log searcher first 18:55:51 then botte 18:55:56 yeah, good idea tusho 18:55:58 hmm 18:56:04 also tusho: I too was trying to have a reasoned argument 18:56:05 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:56:05 how can i make sure it already has the most recent logs... 18:56:05 however 18:56:06 -!- oklofok has joined. 18:56:07 AnMaster: due to generating code from filling in templates 18:56:11 you did ignore that 18:56:16 ah, wait, it can't log-tail then 18:56:16 you just said what you thought 18:56:19 ignoring what I said 18:56:29 ais523, hum? 18:56:31 and register in asm = data stored at a fixed location on the tape in BF 18:56:56 AnMaster: sorry, I meant to higlight psygnisfive on the comment before last rather than you 18:57:03 ais523, anyway how will you handle pointers? I think the generated code would be spectacularly slow 18:57:05 but I'd been talking to you so much I typed the wrong name 18:57:19 compile-time tc equals unrestricted grammar? 18:57:26 oklofok! :D 18:57:26 oklofok: for c++ 18:57:28 AnMaster: yes, it will be, although pointers aren't that hard (just slow) and I've thought up several optimisations 18:57:38 psygnisfive: god, stop going oklopol! whenever he talks 18:57:41 oklofok: all TC == unrestricted grammar. 18:57:42 we can tell. 18:57:56 oklofok: I don't think so necessarily, it rather depends on whether the grammar is the only thing relevant at compile-time 18:58:04 psygnisfive: having a tc type system automatically makes it impossible to parse in general? 18:58:09 i somewhat doubt that 18:58:15 no i didnt say that :P 18:58:19 I mean 1) pointers, lots of them 2) cells in funge space can't be less than 4 bytes 18:58:20 it could be, say, that the grammar was type 3 but some other step in the compilation was TC 18:58:28 unrestricted grammars are computationally equivalent to turing complete machines 18:58:35 ais523, about every app would break with sub-32-bit cells 18:58:36 AnMaster: well pointers are 26 bits, padded to 32 18:58:45 and the cells are 32-bit 18:58:54 ais523, that isn't brainfuck... 18:58:57 so if C++ is compile-time TC then theres some unrestricted grammar that goes along with it 18:59:05 psygnisfive: everyone knows that; ais523: we were talking about whether parsing is tc, not just compilation; tusho: true 18:59:06 brainfuck got unsigned 8 bit... 18:59:09 AnMaster: yes it is, the pointers are stored in 4 8-bit brainfuck cells 18:59:14 ah 18:59:19 just like on an x86 system 18:59:25 oklofok: wait which part was true 18:59:26 psygnisfive: oh 18:59:26 gcc is fine with storing data in more than one cell 18:59:33 my telling psygnisfive not to okoping all the time? 18:59:38 ais523, anyway cfunge uses function pointers 18:59:42 tusho: for c++ it is true, in case it's true 18:59:45 AnMaster: they're fine too 18:59:45 ais523, how the heck do you handle that? 18:59:48 I use them everywhere 18:59:48 oklofok: i know. apparently C++ is TC at compile time. earlier tho they said the syntax of C++ was itself unrestricted 18:59:51 i'm not sure whether it is 18:59:57 ais523, huh... how can you do that in brainfuck 19:00:02 psygnisfive: yeah i'm a bit confused too 19:00:06 i dont think it is 19:00:07 not sure what's the case 19:00:08 AnMaster: each segment of code has a number 19:00:10 ais523, you need to jump in code a lot 19:00:12 psygnisfive: it is 19:00:14 yes 19:00:15 because unrestructed grammars are a pain in the ass to parse. 19:00:18 ais523: yo, you link him to the article. 19:00:34 so every goto, label, and function call in the program is translated to a break in the BF code 19:00:43 where it stores the number of the next block of code in some dedicated registers 19:00:52 ais523, oh and you probably want to sed out all occurrences of the word "inline" in cfunge ;P 19:00:52 then the whole body of the code is effectively a switch in a loop 19:00:57 tusho: I don't know where it is offhand 19:01:00 or the resulting code would be HUGE 19:01:02 bah, k 19:01:24 AnMaster: why, inline gives a better speed gain in BF than it does in other langs 19:01:29 the resulting code's going to be HUGE anyway 19:01:39 ais523, well code could grow a lot 19:01:40 A's type, or should i say kind, needs to be known @ "A < B > C", so it's unrestricted 19:01:43 besides the better way is probably to set gcc's inlining flags 19:01:47 i think that's it really 19:01:56 it doesn't allow inline to grow the code by more than 50% by default, for instance 19:02:01 oklofok: whats that mean now? 19:02:01 it'll uninline things if it would 19:02:04 ah true 19:02:17 AnMaster: you can change that, might be helpful for your speed optimisation 19:02:22 ais523, haha 19:02:43 worryingly I'm trying to optimise gcc-bf's output too 19:02:50 psygnisfive: i think i'd have to think for a while to answer that. 19:02:51 -!- psygnis__ has quit (Connection timed out). 19:02:52 I assume a run-length-encoding interp though 19:03:05 so I assume that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is as fast as > 19:03:06 ais523, normal cfunge binary on x86, stripped, is around 109 KB 19:03:07 but i think i'll just sleep 19:03:07 using GCC 19:03:11 oklofok: :P whats it mean tho to say that its kind needs to be known at ~?? 19:03:14 that is with -march=pentium3 19:03:18 gcc 4.3 19:03:35 AnMaster: what about the insane -O3 version with funroll loops? 19:03:43 ais523, I don't have a copy around 19:03:51 only other is 1.4 MB from debug info... 19:03:56 wait 19:04:02 2.5 MB, it is -ggdb3 19:04:02 psygnisfive: i meant you need to know whether A is a type or an object, really, i think; "kind" was definitely the wrong term, and i'm not sure it's hard to know which one A is 19:04:07 oh btw profile feedback won't work on gcc-bf 19:04:11 nor will any debug format 19:04:15 -g gives a warning that it was ignored 19:04:17 ais523, I assume that :P 19:04:21 oklofok: i dont see how thats relevant to the syntax tho, see 19:04:23 that it wont* 19:04:32 nor will nested functions, but those aren't standard C anyway 19:04:49 psygnisfive: well in case the types are TC, you need to resolve that stuff before you can parse AC 19:04:50 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 19:04:57 so you can't parse all cases at all 19:05:02 because the type system can infloop 19:05:03 ais523, as far as I know I got no nested functions 19:05:10 ais523, it is C99 + POSIX 19:05:17 AnMaster: well you shouldn't have, they aren't C99 or POSIX, just a gcc extension 19:05:23 exactly 19:05:24 oklofok: oh right but types and stuff are done at compilation, they're not part of the syntax. 19:05:34 they're sort of like lambdas but less useful because they can't have any scoping other than auto 19:05:35 ais523, all GCC extensions I have (attributes mostly) are optiona 19:05:37 optional 19:05:39 with ifdef 19:05:48 psygnisfive: you need to do them at the same time as the compilation though 19:05:49 err 19:05:55 the same time as the parsing 19:06:01 heh, my header files simply #define __attribute__(x) to nothing if __GNUC__ isn't defined 19:06:03 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:06:12 you can't parse without knowing the types, and you can't know the types unless you've parsed the program 19:06:17 oklofok: i doubt this. parse then verify. 19:06:23 ais523, well yeah I do a bit more since ICC support *some* attributes 19:06:30 I must have spent an hour or so writing stdio.h 19:06:36 psygnisfive: different parse trees depending on types, that's definitely true of C++ 19:06:37 even though I was copying from glibc 19:06:40 #include 19:06:43 (that's how it ended up LGPL2.1) 19:06:48 ais523, cfunge will fail badly without errno 19:07:01 I have an errno.h 19:07:02 it defines errno 19:07:04 and that's it 19:07:20 oklofok: i still doubt that anything truly requires an unrestricted grammar. i cant even imagine how different types force different parses in a way that requires TCness. 19:07:29 probably I should define numeric codes for the C99 errno codes, though 19:07:34 ais523, the getline() from gnulib assumes that it will have reasonable values 19:07:55 I find it's normally possible to rewrite programs around most restrictions 19:07:56 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 19:08:09 C-INTERCAL was POSIX originally, but I think it can be compiled without unistd.h nowadays 19:08:13 nor any of the functions from it 19:08:24 ais523, well befunge98 requires date/time 19:08:45 AnMaster: maybe Befunge-108 should have an option for freestanding Befunge 19:08:48 which doesn't assume an OS 19:08:49 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 19:08:52 just like there's freestanding C 19:09:03 ais523, um, the interpreter would have to handle it still 19:09:06 wait 19:09:11 not sure how it would work 19:09:20 it would be just a case of returning dummy information for some of y 19:09:36 because Befunge-98 already allows not implementing i and o 19:10:35 ais523, you will have to remove the signal(SIGPIPE, SIG_IGN); thingy 19:10:43 happens in main.c 19:10:45 http://rafb.net/p/lUOFp085.html 19:10:45 anyway 19:10:49 that may be of interest 19:10:57 of course some are from fingerprints 19:11:00 core is a lot less 19:11:00 AnMaster: heh, what you just wrote is by definition a NOP in brainfuck 19:11:06 you're telling it to ignore something that can't happen anyway 19:11:34 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:11:43 sort of like ABSTAIN FROM COMING FROM in INTERCAL-72 19:11:45 ais523, you need a working printf anyway 19:11:53 hmm... I wonder if C-INTERCAL correctly sees that as an error 19:12:21 and yes, I'm going to implement or find from somewhere stdlib, stdio, and string, as programmers really assume they need those 19:12:39 * oerjan wonders if there are many programs using ABSTAIN FROM ABSTAINING 19:13:20 -!- megatron has joined. 19:13:28 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 19:13:31 oerjan: probably not, when you're using ABSTAIN as control flow normally you aim for individual lines, and when you aim for a gerund it's usually NEXTING 19:13:32 ais523, stdint, stdbool and so on too 19:13:49 AnMaster: stdint's just macros, right? and stdbool is trivial in gcc 19:14:02 ais523, well stdint is probably just typedefs 19:14:11 for int32_t int64_t and such 19:14:20 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 19:14:24 ais523, I think cfunge may use int64_t for some other stuff even if funge space is 32-bit 19:14:25 not sure 19:14:41 oh yes TURT fingerprint 19:14:42 AnMaster: well, LONG 19:14:47 but since that writes svg files... 19:14:52 you wouldn't want it anyway 19:14:55 and it uses math 19:14:55 anyway I'm using a nice generic implementation method 19:15:00 for long integers 19:15:07 ais523, TURT too depends on math.h 19:15:16 probably I could add support for 128-bit integers without much trouble (I already have 64-bit long long due to C99) 19:15:29 ais523, I decided against implementing LONG because it is unportable between 32-bit and 64-bit funges 19:15:30 256-bit would be harder as gcc has no name for a data type that large internally 19:15:37 causing programs to be unportable rather 19:15:38 ah, ok 19:15:46 I'm still faced with much the same problem, though 19:16:00 which is: what's the most efficient way to multiply 64-bit numbers in 8-bit brainfuck? 19:16:01 ais523, there is some vector extension? 19:16:07 and GCC got __int128_t at least 19:16:16 AnMaster: I don't use the vector extension 19:16:27 and __int128_t will currently be emulated in software by gcc 19:16:33 ais523, yes i know it will 19:16:39 or it will use SSE I guess 19:16:41 which will probably result in more or less the same code anyway 19:16:42 on x86_64 19:16:50 AnMaster: ah, I was talking about gcc-bf 19:17:02 which is fine with 64-bit numbers (it stores them in 8 consecutive registers or memory locations) 19:17:14 ais523, how many registers do you have= 19:17:15 ? 19:17:25 64 ordinary registers 19:17:32 5 fixed registers at current 19:17:33 and how many special purpose? 19:17:38 ah 19:17:38 but probably I'll have more eventually 19:17:40 program counter? 19:17:43 and what else? 19:17:44 (fixed = gcc's name for special purpose) 19:17:52 ais523, what ones are they 19:18:09 4 registers which are a combined pc and cc0, and one scratch register 19:18:21 oh btw I was thinking of generating code at runtime, using JIT with LLVM, could be rather interesting 19:18:26 also I have stack pointer and a stack of frame pointers, but they're represented in unary for speed 19:18:29 I think JITing funge would work 19:18:35 AnMaster: probably 19:18:36 but probably won't do it 19:19:06 ais523, cfunge's stack can grow rather large I think 19:19:18 probably outside what 8 bits could represent for size 19:19:37 oh what is cc0 btw? 19:19:50 AnMaster: well gcc-bf supports an unlimited size stack, but you can't take pointers to it or pass structures to or from functions if it grows beyond 16 MB 19:20:03 ais523, hm 16 MB no 19:20:05 AnMaster: condition code, which holds the result of a comparison 19:20:12 but maybe a few kb on stac 19:20:13 stack* 19:20:24 and I do take pointers to stuff on stack all the time 19:20:42 AnMaster: not a problem, the stack pointer is represented by two consecutive 0s in a long run of 1s on every sixth tape element 19:20:48 since I prefer variable on stack and pointer rather than having to remember to free 19:20:55 so you can get to the stack pointer easily with [[>>>>>>]>>>>>>] 19:21:08 makes better code IMO 19:21:13 unless variables are large 19:21:15 and pointers to the stack are 24-bit integers with an extra byte stating that they're on the stack 19:21:16 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 19:21:26 and yes, I agree with you, alloca was probably invented for that purpose 19:21:36 ais523, I got some 1024 * 8 bytes arrays on stack in one function or another iirc 19:21:37 pity it isn't standard C really, probably some systems can't manage it 19:21:39 assuming 64-bit funge 19:21:47 1024 * 4 otherwise 19:21:57 actually it may be char buf[1024] 19:21:57 AnMaster: 8KB is fine, although might take a while to access 19:21:59 don't remmeber 19:22:21 BTW can cfunge cope with 16-bit int? 19:22:27 ais523, no 19:22:32 it ought to be able to if you use types correctly, hardly anyone does though 19:22:34 definitely not 19:22:37 C-INTERCAL can't, I know 19:22:41 ais523, well maybe 19:22:45 not sure 19:23:00 I probably use int32_t most of the time 19:23:02 ideally I should be able to set sizeof(int)=2 in gcc-bf, but everything assumes it's 4 nowadays so I'll have it as a command-line option 19:23:03 but not sure 19:23:46 anyway stack won't ever get 16 MB 19:23:50 heap can probably 19:24:34 I think I know how to implement pointers larger than 26-bit 19:24:50 hmm... how many BF interpreters can cope with over 72 million successive > signs? 19:24:51 ais523, fingerprints use a *lot* of function pointers, remember that 19:25:03 AnMaster: function pointers are in a separate memory space 19:25:03 and I have a static array with function pointers 19:25:05 for the loaders 19:25:14 static const array even 19:25:15 which allows 16 mebifunctions 19:25:22 ais523, 16 what? 19:25:35 mebi=2^20 just like mega=10^6 19:25:37 anyway I got way more than 16 functions that I use function pointers to 19:25:39 ais523: 72 million? that's what, 300 megabytes of memory? 19:25:42 ..... 19:25:48 Deewiant: no, 72 megabytes 19:25:58 ais523: is each cell not 4 bytes 19:26:02 AnMaster: so you have over 16 million total functions + labels 19:26:07 hah ok 19:26:08 Deewiant: no, 8-byte cells 19:26:16 ais523: so then it's more like 600 megabytes 19:26:18 if you store an int it's stored in 4 successive cells 19:26:29 ais523, I do use goto for error handling in FILE and SOCK where I need similiar clean up paths in a lot of cases 19:26:35 otherwise goto is very very sparse 19:26:38 it uses a bit over 72 million cells 19:26:39 if ever outside those two 19:26:49 AnMaster: everything's translated into goto in the asm anyway 19:26:55 so it doesn't matter what it was in your code 19:26:57 ais523, well I meant at C level 19:27:05 while is a convenience for the programmer, not for the compiler 19:27:07 ais523, err 19:27:08 not goto 19:27:10 call/ret 19:27:17 I'm sure of that functions call are not goto 19:27:22 or you couldn't return 19:27:24 AnMaster: call/ret is also translated into goto the way I'm doing things 19:27:30 it pushes a label onto the stack first 19:27:33 then gotos the function 19:27:33 ais523, oh btw I sometimes return structs 19:27:36 by value 19:27:39 the function pops a label from the stack 19:27:41 actually just in one place 19:27:46 but I still do it there 19:27:51 not sure if you can handle that 19:27:58 it is a { x, y } struct 19:28:02 AnMaster: if you're using gcc, no you don't, it automatically rewrites that as pass by reference 19:28:21 but if the struct's 64 bits or smaller it stores it in a long long instead and it doesn't matter that it's a struct 19:28:21 ais523, hm doesn't make sense since I construct that in *return* 19:28:23 like: 19:28:38 return (fungeVector) { .x = x, .y = y }; 19:28:39 that 19:28:47 not sure where it would place the reference 19:29:12 AnMaster: the function that calls it allocates space for a fungeVector on the stack and passes a pointer to it to the function that returns a fungeVector 19:29:22 ais523, ugh 19:29:28 then the function returning a fungeVector stores in the memory referenced by that pointer 19:29:36 ais523, but that breaks AMD64 ABI 19:29:37 AnMaster: that's how gcc and most other compilers handle struct returns 19:29:47 AMD64 ABI would return that struct in registers 19:29:48 iirc 19:29:50 except it modifies it to conform with ABIs if possible 19:30:03 it does use registers for things 64-bit and smaller, I think 19:30:12 except to conform with someone else's ABI 19:30:25 I think, but I'm not sure, that AMD64 ABI splits such a struct up over 2 registers... 19:30:32 and probably can handle 128-bit structs too on systems which can normally return long long longs in registers, don't know how many of those exist though 19:30:34 can't find the pdf atm 19:30:48 long long long? 19:30:49 that exist? 19:30:50 AnMaster: just compile with optimizations on and look at the asm 19:30:58 for instance atm the gcc-bf ABI returns 64-bit integers and structs in registers r0-r7 19:31:08 AnMaster: no it doesn't, but what else could you call a 128-bit int? 19:31:18 ais523, int128_t 19:31:35 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:31:36 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:31:36 well yes, but long long long has a swing to it 19:32:11 hah 19:33:02 long short 19:33:12 tusho: I want 24-bit ints! 19:33:14 48-bit too 19:33:20 ais523, why on earth? 19:33:22 wait 19:33:24 there are a whole lot of missing lengths of integers 19:33:32 ais523: what would long short be? 19:33:34 actually mysql has a 24-bit data type AFAIR 19:33:36 struct foo { unsigned int bar:24; } 19:33:38 also 19:33:39 ais523, that *may* work 19:33:42 what about negative half trit 19:33:43 :D 19:33:46 bit field 19:33:48 turkey booooooooooomb! 19:33:55 AnMaster: interesting, I wonder if that's 3 bytes on gcc-bf? 19:34:04 I've told the compiler not to pad anywhere unless the user asks for it 19:34:07 or to make whole bytes 19:34:11 ais523, well I never tried anything but one bit bitfields 19:34:25 but iirc other values than 1 work too 19:34:35 AnMaster: most compilers will give you a 32-bit struct if you do that 19:34:40 with 8 bits of padding 19:34:48 at least on most processors 19:34:59 but will access it like a 24-bit unsigned int 19:35:06 by ignoring the top 8 bits 19:35:07 ais523, cfunge uses bitfields, I made sure the structs had as few holes as possible on x86 and x86_64 using both 32-bit and 64-bit funges 19:35:11 tried all combos 19:35:19 used a tool the kernel developers made: pahole 19:35:28 it reads the debug info from -g and lists any holes 19:35:31 AnMaster: I know, you told me earlier 19:35:31 very nifty tool 19:35:38 I did? 19:35:40 you got good memory 19:35:45 unlike me 19:36:18 ais523, anyway how do you do bitfields in your gcc-bf? 19:36:28 AnMaster: badly 19:36:35 it takes lots of bitwise operations 19:36:38 ais523, as in slow? or incorrect? 19:36:44 AnMaster: very slow but correct 19:36:45 ais523, well cfunge will be hellish slow then 19:36:49 lots of multiplication and division in loops 19:36:57 ais523, since it accesses a few bitfields for every instruction executed 19:37:08 basically: isStringMode 19:37:09 and 19:37:21 wait more than that 19:37:27 ipMode mode; ///< String or code mode. 19:37:28 bool needMove:1; ///< Should ipForward be called at end of main loop. Is reset to true each time. 19:37:28 bool stringLastWasSpace:1; ///< Used in string mode for SGML style spaces. 19:37:28 AnMaster: probably it would be worth having a mode that unpacked the bitfields into one unsigned char per bitfield 19:37:29 that is it 19:37:44 ais523, not really on x86/x86_64 19:37:46 I checked there 19:37:55 so 19:37:56 avofs 19:37:56 no noticable difference 19:37:58 oh, I think it's probably a lot faster on gcc-bf if you don't have many bits in your bitfield 19:38:07 but chars will still be faster still 19:38:08 oh wow, some intercal code! in the wild! 19:38:12 coooooooool 19:38:12 ais523, there is another one: 19:38:13 bool fingerSUBRisRelative:1; ///< Data for fingerprint SUBR. 19:38:20 tusho: whwew did you find it? 19:38:30 ais523: i'd tell you but then i'd have to kill you 19:38:35 not a good deal overall i think 19:38:48 AnMaster: ew, bitfields 19:38:54 Deewiant, why? 19:38:57 AnMaster: are these constant structs? 19:39:00 or do they change over time 19:39:03 AnMaster: I was just about to ask you :-P 19:39:03 ais523, no that is in ip struct 19:39:07 so it changes a lot 19:39:14 ok 19:39:19 ais523, and is checked once every time in main loop 19:39:22 or something like that 19:39:25 one of them is 19:39:31 anyway I suspect gcc-bf will be painfully slow if run on an ordinary BF interpreter 19:39:35 needMove in concurrent funge 19:39:39 Deewiant, ?? 19:39:47 AnMaster: why bitfields 19:39:52 Deewiant, why not? 19:40:09 ais523, you could create one that reverse compile it to C... 19:40:10 ;P 19:40:18 more code, and probably slower 19:40:29 Deewiant, as I said, there was no noticable difference 19:40:37 AnMaster: well I'm going to litter the output with optimisation data 19:40:41 yeah, probably not noticeable 19:40:52 but it's one extra instruction for each access :-P 19:40:52 such as @4 to mean "the pointer is now at cell 4 of the tape" 19:40:56 Deewiant, and I'm not that speed crazy 19:41:08 Deewiant, plus this means it will fit into my L2 cache ;) 19:41:10 * AnMaster ducks 19:41:33 AnMaster: surely it'd be cached anyway 19:41:35 AnMaster: not L1? 19:41:43 ais523, this is a sempron 19:41:46 GREEN THINGS!! 19:41:50 GREN THINGS DEVEOTED TO MACHINESSSSSSSSSSS 19:41:51 so very very SMALL cache 19:41:54 SDFSDS;DFSL;FKSDFL;KD;AKD;ASDK;ASDK;ALSD^G^G^G^G 19:41:55 so about nothing fits 19:42:02 DDDDDDD:DDDDD 19:42:09 heck even the P3 near here got larger cache 19:42:10 KJLjkLJklJKLjLjkLJlkJljKLjlkklJ 19:42:12 slower yes 19:42:14 but more cache 19:42:19 AnMaster: you could probably fit a BF interp written in asm into it, those can be very small indeed 19:42:21 o_XXXXXXXXXX 19:42:25 ais523, cache size : 128 KB 19:42:28 ,o/ /// o\, 19:42:30 from /proc/cpuinfo 19:42:34 the P3 got twice that 19:42:37 128 KB isn't very small! 19:42:47 and of course it will have lot of other stuff 19:42:49 HO HO I HEARTY LAFF 19:42:51 LAFFLAFLAFLAFLALFAF 19:42:51 than just hte ip struct 19:43:01 by "very small" I thought you meant a few hundred bytes, that's what I'm used to working with sometimes 19:43:09 DO YOU LAF 19:43:12 ais523, hah 19:43:13 PIGS HOW DO YOU LAFGHU 19:43:17 dddd 19:43:47 ais523, modern x86 can have caches larger than 2-3 MB these days 19:44:01 AnMaster: even in the L1? 19:44:04 AnMaster: L1 caches, nope 19:44:07 +for 19:44:15 indeed not for L1 19:44:21 for L1 the most I seen is 512 kb 19:44:24 iirc 19:44:39 iDISAGREElol,wiht ur jiaoj ioj 19:44:52 why do we have a randomness generator in here? 19:45:08 AnMaster: we have at least two. optbot, fungot, hi! 19:45:08 ais523: If anybody wishes: Throw a runtime exception with the message "I'm in ur channel throwin ur exceptionz." 19:45:09 ais523: paste all the urls i've visited. strange.) an earlier version of sql but not without? :p. ugh i need to enter " qemu" to edit a file that has ?scm ( fnord " source-file.scm")) 19:45:13 comic effect lol 19:45:15 ais523, 3 19:45:16 then 19:45:17 ^echo optbot 19:45:17 optbot optbot 19:45:18 Deewiant: !bf8 +[<+>+<+>+<+>+<+] 19:45:18 fungot: even ignoring the fact that you've read his book 19:45:18 optbot: it was too easy heh one time i figured out my bug :d) 19:45:19 tusho, fungot optbot 19:45:19 fungot: you lose, by a lot 19:45:19 AnMaster: Knock knock. 19:45:20 AnMaster: it doesn't look like it does the fnord i want to do is to write a render procedure for sdl is just a value that prints as void. it is a load of hell. twice. most confusing. :p ( although theoretically speaking i could try. 19:45:20 all of them 19:45:21 optbot: i'm certain he isn't annoying at all. the code i write, more should be all set)) f 19:45:21 fungot: +2 5=7 19:45:22 optbot: actually just parsing ski says. remember physics 103, modern physics, general functions i suppose. 19:45:23 fungot: indeed. everything is subjective 19:45:25 optbot: fopen(3) freebsd library functions manual fopen(3) 19:45:26 fungot: the short way ;) 19:45:27 optbot: i made it up as much as cheap jokes would like you to die, but it does not render via cocoa, and qt/ kde 19:45:28 fungot: Jim is pretty much a light Tcl interpreter, with nice things like "closures" added. 19:46:06 3 19:46:13 4 COMIC EFFECT CLEAN MAKER 2!!!!!! 19:49:24 ais523, anyway if you want floating point to work with cfunge means float will be exactly 32-bit and double exactly 64-bits 19:49:35 since I have to mess around with unions 19:49:39 for some fingerprints 19:49:54 don't worry, those are exactly the sizes of floating point I'm using 19:49:55 AnMaster: aren't there float32_t types 19:49:58 or some such 19:49:59 although long double = double 19:50:04 Deewiant, nop 19:50:12 hoorays for standard C 19:50:17 hip hip, hooray 19:50:19 hip hip, hooray 19:50:19 ais523, that is fine, while I do use long double I never depend on it's size 19:50:20 hip hip, hooray 19:50:21 Deewiant: I don't think so, systems on which float wasn't 32 bits almost certainly wouldn't implement them so it would be pointless 19:50:39 Deewiant: float formats are a lot more varied than int formats 19:50:39 ais523: why wouldn't they 19:51:32 ais523, cfunge will need both sin() and sinf() then, and you would just map sinl() to sin() 19:51:57 Deewiant: different processors have different sort of float support, for instance things like the 387 work in 80-bit float internally, so it can cause problems by having too much precision internally as double is only 64 19:52:11 yes 19:52:15 ais523: why would that be a problem 19:52:19 and long double on x86_64 is 128-bits 19:52:23 it uses SSE 19:52:26 an algorithm that relies on a certain bittiness is broken anyway 19:52:40 that's one example, most compilers have an option to emulate exact 64-bit double and normally just switch between 64 and 80 at will because normally too much precision is not a problem 19:53:19 ais523: I still don't see why that would prevent a float32_t from existing 19:53:24 but gcc has options to work exactly to the spec and use exactly the right amount of precision by copying the float values into memory and back every operation 19:53:45 Deewiant: it would have to be implemented in software, slowing the program down a lot and requiring floating point emulation libraries 19:54:03 ais523: it doesn't have to have any specific characteristics 19:54:20 if you have 36-bit floats you can have 32-bit floats which just have 4 bits of the exponent always zero 19:54:20 but gcc has options to work exactly to the spec and use exactly the right amount of precision by copying the float values into memory and back every operation 19:54:21 err 19:54:22 no 19:54:28 you can set the precision 19:54:30 with some instruction 19:54:32 pretty sure 19:54:54 AnMaster: it's one of the -mwhatever options on x86, I know because I was reading the gcc manual last night 19:55:00 jkjlkjlfkdjkdlfjfdg 19:55:06 AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant 19:55:21 tusho: congrats, you're the first person I've ignored in years 19:55:27 awesome 19:55:41 ais523, um -mpc64 ? 19:56:12 ais523, but iirc that sets some floating point control register 19:56:14 or such 19:56:20 AnMaster: I don't think so, but I can't remember what the option was offhand, it had some long name 19:56:29 mfpmath rings a bell, related? 19:56:39 Deewiant, that is for selecting x87 or see 19:56:41 sse* 19:56:48 meh 19:56:59 -m96bit-long-double 19:56:59 -m128bit-long-double 19:57:04 can't be that 19:57:09 they are for alignment in structs 19:57:40 i wonder if i can get ignored by everyone in #esoteric 19:57:41 that would rock 19:58:01 AnMaster, ais523: are you sure you don't mean -ffloat-store? 19:58:17 fizzie: ah, that might be it 19:58:24 "Do not store floating point variables in registers -- This option prevents undesirable excess precision --" 19:58:38 um 19:58:40 hm 19:58:48 tusho: well I just ignored you to help you with your mission, I'll probably unignore you again in a bit 19:58:50 but what about setting the control register of x87? 19:58:54 sweet 19:58:56 I'm 99% sure that is possible 19:58:58 fizzie: /ignore me, would you? 19:59:06 FUNNY JOKE POSSIBILITY: 19:59:10 fizzie stays silent 19:59:13 funny, I don't plan to ignore tusho 19:59:14 ...because he's already ignoring me 19:59:14 fizzie: yes, that's what I was thinking of 19:59:30 mentally sure 19:59:33 but not with client 19:59:42 ironic that tusho can't read this 20:00:04 I'll paste it, I'm ignoring tusho but I don't think tusho's ignoring me 20:00:11 i am not 20:00:16 19:59AnMasterfunny, I don't plan to ignore tusho 19:59AnMastermentally sure 19:59AnMasterbut not with client 19:59AnMasterironic that tusho can't read this 20:00:26 ah yes now he can 20:00:26 AnMaster i see you 20:00:29 i see you with my eyes 20:00:29 since you pasted it 20:00:30 or rather 20:00:33 through ais523's eyes. 20:00:43 ^echo HELLO WORLD HEAR ME ROAR 20:00:44 HELLO WORLD HEAR ME ROAR HELLO WORLD HEAR ME ROAR 20:00:47 well I don't plan to paste back what tusho said 20:00:51 that would be too silly 20:00:52 ^bf ,[.,]!ah this is better 20:00:53 ah this is better 20:01:02 ^bf ,[.,]!so Deewiant... adhisaweh8q2y381786*(y88 PANCAKES 20:01:02 so Deewiant... adhisaweh8q2y381786*(y88 PANCAKES 20:01:03 AnMaster: yep 20:01:07 I might logread it later 20:01:47 ais523, does c-intercal compile with ICC? 20:02:02 AnMaster: never tried, it should compile with most things though 20:02:16 ais523, icc supports a lot of GCC extensions btw, it even defines __GNUC__ by default to get GNU specific stuff from system headers 20:02:16 it even used to compile with pre-C89 C 20:02:42 -!- Hiato has joined. 20:02:50 but cfunge manage without those (-no-gcc to ICC) 20:03:25 http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/python.png 20:03:37 ais523, ah it will have to wait since I can't do out of tree build 20:03:44 don't feel like making a copy of the source 20:03:45 sorry 20:04:15 ah, ok 20:04:25 ais523, *HINT HINT* 20:05:22 ais523, as I don't have icc on my amd64 (for obvious reasons) I would nfs mount the source and compile it on the p3 using icc 20:05:23 AnMaster: to me building out of tree is just extra complexity to the user, besides it does build out of tree just the out of tree place it builds is a fixed place elsewhere in the tree 20:05:43 ais523, well that is not really out of tree 20:05:53 I normally have several different builds of cfunge 20:05:56 on same source 20:06:03 all of them out of tree thus 20:06:29 AnMaster: well you can create a new tree with just the base directory with configure and an empty lib, include, bin, and temp, symlink the src directory, and reconfigure 20:06:38 that's how you do an out of tree C-INTERCAL build 20:06:44 admittedly that isn't obvious though 20:06:46 ais523, well that seems complex 20:06:56 ais523, but I suggest supporting it the real way 20:06:56 :) 20:08:06 it would be pretty easy to support actually, you could just have the configure script create lib include bin and temp, and symlink src, then compile the normal way 20:08:16 or have an out-of-tree-configure which was a wrapper 20:08:21 ais523: ping 20:09:45 ais523, well I suggest doing it like everyone else does 20:10:05 ais523, well I suggest doing it like everyone else does <--- I think you are missing the point of INTERCAL 20:10:25 ais523, hah 20:10:26 ok 20:11:44 ais523, what is the command to check out darcs now again? 20:11:52 of intercal 20:11:55 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 20:12:04 * ais523 tries to remember 20:12:26 darcs pull http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/ 20:12:37 darcs failed: Unable to "darcs pull" here. 20:12:37 You need to be in a repository directory to run this command. 20:12:40 no 20:12:41 darcs get 20:12:45 ais523 can't see that 20:12:48 but i think AnMaster can 20:12:50 if you can, say yes 20:12:51 i'll logread 20:12:51 ah thanks tusho 20:12:53 tusho: yes I can, I unignored you about 2 minutes ago 20:13:01 but that's the first thing you did since 20:13:14 s/did/said/ 20:13:43 ais523, does darcs work over nfs? 20:13:58 AnMaster: no idea, I don't see why not though 20:14:56 -xK -march=pentium3 -O3 -ipo -no-prec-div 20:14:59 I *think* 20:15:20 ais523, please makde config.sh +x 20:15:23 it would be very useful 20:15:33 AnMaster: bug in darcs, it is at my end but darcs forgets file permissions 20:15:38 probably the most famous bug in darcs 20:15:42 not a bug 20:15:43 a feature 20:15:44 i think 20:16:02 tusho: no, it's a bug, just it's really difficult to fix for some reason or they would have fixed it already I suspect 20:16:05 checking for gcc... icc 20:16:06 eh? 20:16:13 checking whether we are using the GNU C compiler... yes 20:16:16 ok.. whatever 20:16:18 ais523: darcs development has slooooooooowed to a crawl 20:16:22 AnMaster: it check for __GNUC__ 20:16:25 and a buncha people are switching darcs -> git 20:16:30 i think it's on death row, it just doesn't know it yet 20:16:39 ais523, && !defined(__INTEL_COMPILER) 20:16:53 AnMaster: that test is to see if gcc extensions can be used 20:16:55 src/oil.y(466): remark #810: conversion from "int" to "char" may lose significant bits 20:16:55 buf[bi++]=c; 20:16:55 ^ 20:16:55 nice 20:17:00 there are other tests for things like command line arguments 20:17:11 src/dekludge.c(55): remark #1419: external declaration in primary source file 20:17:11 extern void prexpr(node *np, FILE* fp, int freenode); /* AIS */ 20:17:11 ^ 20:17:11 yes 20:17:32 ais523, there should be no extern in C files in icc's opinion 20:17:35 I agree most of the time 20:17:41 there is one case in cfunge 20:17:46 extern char **environ; 20:17:47 AnMaster: oh, and storing the result of getchar in a char is a reasonable thing to do IMO once you've verified separately that it isn't EOF 20:17:57 AnMaster: what about extern int errno? 20:17:58 ais523, agreed 20:18:01 ais523, wrong 20:18:03 use errno.h 20:18:04 always 20:18:10 ais523, since at least here it is not an int 20:18:13 AnMaster: yes, but that's included into your source 20:18:14 it is something more complex 20:18:17 that is rentrant 20:18:19 ais523, it is not 20:18:35 #include 20:18:38 always 20:18:43 AnMaster: yes, I know, that's how I do it too 20:18:53 what I'm saying is shouldn't it complain about the extern in errno.h? 20:19:01 ais523, that is a header 20:19:02 or does it give header files a free pass? 20:19:04 different 20:19:09 ais523, yes indeed it does 20:19:18 icc: command line remark #10148: option '-W' not supported 20:19:19 icc: command line warning #10120: overriding '-O2' with '-O3' 20:19:19 hm 20:19:25 ais523, if you want all warnings try -Wall 20:19:33 it has both -W and -Wall I think 20:19:38 ais523, ICC doesn't 20:19:45 ais523, so better check such stuff 20:19:50 -W is the old name for -Wextra in gcc, and C-INTERCAL is stuck in the past 20:20:00 ais523, consider being portable? 20:20:09 if you still work on DOS 20:20:14 why not work on ICC correctly 20:20:15 AnMaster: it's portable in theory but hasn't been tested on non-gcc compilers for years 20:20:20 so some gccisms may have snuck in 20:20:24 without anyone noticing 20:20:41 src/abcess.h(210): remark #193: zero used for undefined preprocessing identifier 20:20:41 #if (MULTITHREAD != 0) || (YUKDEBUG != 0) || defined(ICK_EC) 20:20:41 ^ 20:20:42 oh, some of the external calls stuff relies on gnu ld to work 20:20:44 so who agrees with me: random noise pixels look pretty 20:20:45 not sure what that is 20:20:46 ais523, ^ 20:20:56 I think it may not do what you want 20:21:02 try defined() 20:21:11 AnMaster: oh, I do, it's a little-known feature of the C preprocessor which is confusing 20:21:21 ais523, ? 20:21:23 that undefined preprocessing identifiers are treated as 0 in #if 20:21:32 yes 20:21:34 but still 20:21:35 why use that 20:21:44 src/abcess.h(112): remark #310: old-style parameter list (anachronism) 20:21:44 extern void ick_resize(); 20:21:52 well i was just logreading 20:21:53 AnMaster: 20:21:54 try adding a void in there? 20:21:56 boohoo, anachronism 20:21:59 intercal is meant to be different in every way 20:22:01 who cares, it's correct 20:22:02 for no reason at all. 20:22:04 get that in to your head. 20:22:08 -!- dogface has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:22:21 ok 20:22:25 tusho, will LOVE this 20:22:26 src/lexer.l(308): (col. 13) remark: REVERSED LOOP WAS VECTORIZED. 20:22:27 src/lexer.l(307): (col. 13) remark: REVERSED LOOP WAS VECTORIZED. 20:22:27 src/lexer.l(306): (col. 13) remark: REVERSED LOOP WAS VECTORIZED. 20:22:32 AnMaster: I probably would have if I caught it earlier, I had to add prototypes to bits of C-INTERCAL earlier, though 20:22:34 look it optimised c-intercal! 20:22:35 to use SSE 20:22:42 and vectorised loops 20:22:46 I know tusho loves such 20:22:50 I don't care... 20:22:58 AnMaster: gcc does that too at -O3, it just doesn't tell you about it unless you ask it to 20:23:06 ais523, try protoize 20:23:11 comes with gcc iirc 20:23:21 AnMaster: yes, I hadn't heard about it back then and the conversion was years ago 20:23:23 ais523, well default is to tell 20:23:30 ais523, how can you get gcc to tell you btw? 20:23:49 AnMaster: not sure by the way, it's probably in one of the debugging dumps 20:23:58 ah 20:24:01 gcc tends not to have options to shout at you whenever it does an optimisation 20:24:20 AnMaster: yesterday for fun I turned on all the debug dumps on a very simple program and it created about 100 of them 20:24:27 ais523, well there are optimising log verbosity(sp?) level for icc 20:24:41 to stdout though 20:24:49 temp/oilout03.c(3): remark #1418: external function definition with no prior declaration 20:24:49 int optimize_pass1_3(node *np) 20:25:06 it thinks there should either be a prototype in a header or it should be static 20:25:18 ais523, and GCC will say that too with the right switches 20:25:33 AnMaster: there is in most cases, that function results from splitting optimize_pass1 into smaller pieces so it doesn't crash gcc on ia64 though 20:25:38 that bug was reported by Debian 20:25:48 ais523, hm here is one that *could* be bad, or *could* be just a false positive: 20:25:49 temp/oilout01.c(106): remark #981: operands are evaluated in unspecified order 20:25:50 x=x3; c=c3; if(!(!(x&2863311530LU)&&iselect(x,1431655765LU)==xselx(iselect(x,1431655765LU)))) break; 20:25:56 ^ 20:26:04 no, that's not bad 20:26:13 iselect and xselx are both pure functions 20:26:23 so it doesn't matter which order they're evaluated in 20:26:39 ais523, well how do you do linking? 20:26:40 calling ld? 20:26:43 or calling compiler? 20:26:49 calling compiler 20:26:52 I think ICC will break if you call ld 20:26:53 ah good 20:26:54 using shell expansion 20:27:04 ais523, icc will do cross-object optimising 20:27:06 $CC oilout*.o 20:27:10 so it will put those together again 20:27:17 AnMaster: and crash on IA64? 20:27:18 at the final linking 20:27:23 ais523, maybe, don't know 20:27:33 AnMaster: maybe it has more memory than the Debian autobuilders 20:27:34 gcc is very memory hungry 20:27:36 remember that 20:27:48 btw I also managed to get it to crash even on x86 once, the split avoided that problem 20:28:01 ais523, gcc is very memory hungry 20:28:43 sh -c "(test -f /home/anmaster/local/ick/share/info/ick.igz && : --quiet --dir-file=`echo /dev/null` /home/anmaster/local/ick/share/info/ick.igz) || true" 20:28:44 err 20:28:46 After all replacements due to macro expansion and the defined unary operator have been performed, all remaining identifiers are replaced with the pp-number 0, and then each preprocessing token is converted into a token. 20:28:48 --dir-file=`echo /dev/null` 20:28:51 ais523, WHAT THE HECK? 20:29:01 --dir-file=/dev/null 20:29:04 is what you mean 20:29:07 not echo like that 20:29:09 well yes, surely 20:29:19 I think things must have been evaluated in the wrong order 20:29:23 still, it comes to the right thing 20:29:32 and besides it's running : which ignores all its arguments anyway 20:29:40 so no problem 20:29:49 ah, the joys of autoconf 20:30:21 ais523, will ick use $CC or gcc? 20:30:36 the actual compiler compiles with icc 20:30:38 AnMaster: it /ought/ to use $CC, that hasn't been tested for years though 20:30:41 that I can say 20:30:44 so quite possibly doesn't work 20:31:14 $ CC=echo ick -b beer.i 20:31:14 beer.c -I/usr/include/ick-0.28 -I. -I./../include -L/usr/lib -L. -L./../lib -O2 -o beer -lick 20:31:15 well that works 20:31:29 beer.c(3016): warning #177: label "L1910" was declared but never referenced 20:31:29 case -1910: ; L1910: 20:31:29 ^ 20:31:32 lots of stuff like that 20:31:36 harmless in generated code 20:31:50 works 20:31:54 right result that is 20:32:09 well there are lots of unused labels in the result 20:32:30 AnMaster: try it without the CC= 20:32:30 -wd177 would quited that 20:32:40 ais523, my /usr/bin/cc is gcc so... 20:32:42 why? 20:32:50 I think it tries to use the value of CC there was at compile time if there isn't a CC in the environment 20:32:57 /opt/intel/cc/10.1.018/bin/icc 20:33:14 anyway I'm glad it works with non-gcc compilers 20:33:22 ais523, at least beer does 20:33:26 at least ones which take much the same options 20:33:27 leaks 500 bytes though 20:33:36 ais523, no warnings without $CC set 20:33:37 AnMaster: what, the compile, or the compiled program? 20:33:39 so I assume it is gcc 20:33:44 ais523, the compiled program 20:33:47 ah, ok 20:34:01 ==8602== definitely lost: 500 bytes in 16 blocks. 20:34:05 using gcc now 20:34:07 AnMaster: that's bad, the compile is known to leak loads but I didn't think compiled programs leaked 20:34:11 ==8602== 36 bytes in 8 blocks are definitely lost in loss record 1 of 3 20:34:11 ==8602== at 0x4006D6E: malloc (vg_replace_malloc.c:207) 20:34:11 ==8602== by 0x8057679: ick_resize (in /home/anmaster/c-intercal/pit/beer) 20:34:11 ==8602== by 0x8056A1B: main (in /home/anmaster/c-intercal/pit/beer) 20:34:15 and 20:34:17 ==8602== 464 bytes in 8 blocks are definitely lost in loss record 3 of 3 20:34:18 ==8602== at 0x4006D6E: malloc (vg_replace_malloc.c:207) 20:34:18 ==8602== by 0x80576FC: ick_resize (in /home/anmaster/c-intercal/pit/beer) 20:34:18 ==8602== by 0x8056A1B: main (in /home/anmaster/c-intercal/pit/beer) 20:34:29 oh, I thnk I know what that might be 20:34:35 let me check something 20:35:20 ok, that's harmless 20:35:30 at the very end of the program it isn't freeing the contents of arrays 20:35:33 just the pointers to them 20:35:36 ais523: stop talking to yourself 20:35:40 there's like 50 lines of just you 20:35:46 easy enough to fix though, so I may as well 20:35:48 ICL778I UNEXPLAINED COMPILER BUG 20:35:48 ON THE WAY TO 0 20:35:48 CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT 20:35:52 ais523, should that happen? 20:35:56 $ ./beer +help 20:35:56 no it shouldn't 20:35:58 was what I did 20:36:05 oh, with +help it's fine 20:36:09 ais523, oh? 20:36:26 after +help runs there used to be a simulated segfault 20:36:33 err 20:36:35 wtf :P 20:36:46 I took the time delay out of it, but there's still an internal error 20:36:46 ais523, anyway CC from compile time isn't used 20:36:52 which is invoked deliberately 20:36:53 and ok 20:37:11 ais523, how would I test some of the ec features 20:37:14 that normally need GCC 20:37:16 it probably should be and there's support from it in the code, looks like I'm going to have to tweak the build process again 20:37:23 give me a command line for ick in pit 20:37:50 ick -beE beer.i syslibc 20:38:19 ais523, just two labels that weren't used this time 20:38:19 huh 20:38:31 ais523, also how to send some cflags on to ICC 20:38:37 as it is in a gcc compatiblity mode by default 20:38:39 -!- dogface has joined. 20:38:48 need to send -no-gcc to tell it to not try to support GCC extensions 20:38:54 AnMaster: you can put them in $CC I think 20:39:01 hi dogface 20:39:19 Ello. 20:39:42 I don't like how irssi's auto-reconnect doesn't work. 20:39:46 ais523, well then beer work 20:40:05 /tmp/syslibc.c(54): remark #174: expression has no effect 20:40:05 do { if(0) { ick_l2_65540 : ; if(ick_global_linelabel != (1010) || (1010) > 65535) goto ick_l2_65541 ; ick_global_checkmode = 0; } 0 ; ick_checksuckpoint(1010); } while(0); 20:40:06 ais523, ^ 20:40:09 AnMaster: ah great! 20:40:14 ^ 20:40:18 Seems that it tries to reconnect once, and if that fails, it forgets about the server's existence. 20:40:22 AnMaster: it's complaining about the 0; 20:40:22 ais523, um? 20:40:29 AnMaster: crosseed messages... 20:40:37 hmm... I wonder why there's a 0; there anyway 20:40:59 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/QXAv9U46.html 20:41:03 you may want to read that 20:41:19 ais523, could be some real useful warnings 20:42:05 the one on line 30 of the paste looks genuine, that's a gcc extension I triggered by accident (it allows stray semicolons as null declarations, C doesn't) 20:42:27 ais523, the one on 62 also looks valid 20:42:45 AnMaster: no, the one on 62's bogus 20:42:51 really? 20:42:54 the variable could have been used but wasn't 20:43:04 think of it like a library function that's never used 20:43:08 ais523, well it was never in the generated code 20:43:24 AnMaster: it could have been substituted in with a macro 20:43:31 but I never used that macro in syslibc 20:43:32 hm ok 20:43:34 thus the warning 20:44:05 ais523, also "expression has no effect" looks valid to me 20:45:34 AnMaster: nah, that's fine, it's just a 0; I wrote because I needed a nop there 20:45:43 probably it should be (void)0; which is the canonical C nop 20:45:51 $ ./cftoec.sh ~/cfunge/trunk 20:45:51 ./cftoec.sh: line 13: realpath: command not found 20:45:52 ais523, huh ^ 20:45:53 but that's to avoid code duplication in the header files 20:46:00 oh dear, I tend to rely on realpath a lot 20:46:09 ais523, this is archlinux 20:46:10 to prevent problems with directory changes 20:46:20 ais523, well arch linux doesn't have it by default it seems 20:46:28 AnMaster: I don't think it's default anywhere unfortunately, Ubuntu doesn't have it by default either 20:46:40 ais523, maybe stop using it :) 20:46:40 probably it shouldn't have been in C-INTERCAL then, I just get into the habit of using it.. 20:46:58 AnMaster: it should work if you change it to echo as long as you give an absolute path 20:47:11 why the heck does it need absolute path? 20:47:30 AnMaster: so the path doesn't get lost when you change directory 20:47:37 it doesn't need an absolute path normally, that's what the realpath is for 20:47:44 um, I would use a subshell 20:47:45 to make the path absolute if a relative path was given 20:48:05 it makes a lot more sense than erroring out just because you were given a relative path, like configure does 20:48:23 well do that then 20:48:43 I'll find some way around it 20:48:53 it's just that I'm so used to realpath I forgot that systems didn't have it by default 20:49:00 ais523, you didn't update for the FUNGEDATATYPE -> fungeCell change it seems? 20:49:06 even though I told you some time ago 20:49:09 or you forgot to push 20:49:16 AnMaster: not yet, no, I haven't been working on C-INTERCAL recently 20:49:30 mostly I've either been asleep or working on gcc-bf 20:49:35 it will be fixed before the next release 20:49:47 ais523, also why does it ignore $CC 20:49:55 the cftoec.sh script 20:50:08 ais523, cfunge compiles just fine with ICC 20:50:09 because I wrote it in about 5 minutes in a hurry 20:50:12 ah 20:50:51 anyway ICC give a lot more readable errors 20:50:56 and so will clang 20:51:11 clang? 20:51:19 you know about LLVM? 20:51:26 not really 20:51:37 clang is the new C/C++ frontend written from scratch being coded for LLVM 20:51:53 modular, better error tracking than gcc while using less memory 20:51:56 and so on 20:52:02 looks very promising 20:52:11 still not in usable state 20:52:20 it can handle some C but almost no C++ 20:52:22 yet 20:52:36 but certainly looks promising 20:52:46 interesting, I know a lot about gcc from working on it for a week or so, and its design seems to be mostly about the genericness of frontend and backend, and the ability to do crazy optimisations easily 20:53:00 it's not so good at error detection except when an optimisation discovers something's gone wrong, though 20:53:43 google for clang 20:54:21 seems interesting 20:54:25 competition in C compilers is good 20:54:31 I don't want GCC getting too big for their boots 20:56:14 /tmp/syslibc.c(192): remark #128: loop is not reachable from preceding code 20:56:15 do { if(0) { ick_l2_65556 : ; if(ick_global_linelabel != (1001) || (1001) > 65535) goto ick_l2_65557 ; ick_global_checkmode = 0; } 0 ; ick_checksuckpoint(1001); } while(0); 20:56:17 ais523, what about that one 20:56:46 AnMaster: do while 0 is an idiom 20:56:46 and still, why do you have those "expression has no effect" 20:56:52 and shouldn't be treated as a loop at all 20:57:12 ais523, why a do { } while at all? 20:57:17 you could just strip that 20:57:21 AnMaster: because that statement was created by filling out a template (reasonably obviously, given its appearance), and there was a blank which I didn't need to put a command in so I put a 0 in instead 20:57:29 AnMaster: macro expansion, it makes a block act like a statement 20:57:46 so you can do if(1) macro(args); else something_else(); 20:57:55 and it compiles correctly 20:58:11 do { } while(0) is a common trick because it's a single statement if you put ; at the end 20:58:21 whereas a block isn't, once you add the semicolon it's two statements 20:58:25 /tmp/syslibc.c(197): remark #111: statement is unreachable 20:58:25 if(ick_local_checkmode) ick_doresume((1),-1); ick_l1_65538 : ; ick_l6_65538 : ; ick_l2_65557 : return; } 20:58:25 ^ 20:58:26 that too? 20:58:47 yes, that's the very end of the function, and that function isn't allowed to return as it's only called from INTERCAL, not from C 20:58:59 functions can be called either via INTERCAL or via C mechanisms 20:59:09 if called via INTERCAL mechanisms they must return via INTERCAL mechanisms 20:59:16 whereas that's the code for returning via the C mechanism 20:59:27 which is never used in this case 21:00:53 http://rafb.net/p/uTeEIr64.html 21:00:57 ais523, any false positive there? 21:01:24 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:01:24 "external declaration in primary source file" and "external function definition with no prior declaration" are not false positives to me 21:01:27 just FYI 21:01:58 ais523, BAD: 21:01:59 rot13.c(579): warning #2132: statement expressions are a GNU extension 21:01:59 if(0) { ick_l1_65538 : ; if(ick_global_linelabel == (10U) && (10U) <= 65535) if(({int i=0; if (!ick_abstained[86]) { i=1;};i;})) { if(ick_global_goto) ick_lose("555 FLOW DIAGRAM IS EXCESSIVELY CONNECTED\n ON THE WAY TO %d\n", ick_lineno, (char*)0); ick_global_goto = 65544 ; } goto ick_l1_65539 ; ick_l2_65557 : ; if(ick_global_linelabel != 65544 ) goto ick_l2_65558 21:01:59 ; ick_global_checkmode = 0; }; 21:01:59 ^ 21:02:04 GNUish 21:02:05 the one on 31's genuine and fixable, the one on 44 reminds me why I needed gcc 21:02:11 for external calls 21:02:20 that one's very genuine, and may take some thought to fix 21:02:32 it would be nice to find a different way and so get rid of the gcc dependency 21:02:51 ais523, hope you can skip using GCC specific ones :) 21:02:56 even though icc can handle those 21:02:56 maybe move all the statement expressions to generated functions, not sure if that would work due to the need to access local variables 21:03:10 ({ }) is kind-of hard to substitute into standard C 21:03:11 ais523, now to try to compile main ick with these flags 21:03:17 maybe I'll ask comp.lang.c if they have any ideas 21:03:29 nested functions would work except they're a GNU extension too 21:03:37 ais523, pass local variables along? 21:03:46 foo(&a, &b, &c) 21:03:53 AnMaster: hard to tell what the local variables are 21:04:03 because they could be in user-supplied C code 21:06:28 icc: command line remark #10148: option '-W' not supported 21:06:35 you should probably check in configure 21:07:01 yes, although last I checked configure didn't have an option to check "option to turn on all warnings" 21:07:10 kind of hard to see how it could manage that really 21:07:19 RADICAL 21:07:26 NO SIR 21:07:29 YOUR UNWASHED MASSES? 21:07:31 NOT APPRECIATED!! BAD 21:07:44 ais523, hm 21:07:56 ais523, I may have a m4 macro to check if an option is supported 21:08:08 by checking if there was any output 21:08:23 AnMaster: but sometimes supported options generate output, sometimes unsupported options do 21:08:27 actually it checked if it was GCC first, then checked using -Werror to see if it was supported 21:08:42 as a facetious example, how can you tell if --version works or not? 21:08:50 hah 21:09:01 src/ick_ec.c(222): warning #1011: missing return statement at end of non-void function "ick_getonespot" 21:09:01 } 21:09:01 ^ 21:09:02 ais523, ^ 21:09:06 and 21:09:07 src/ick_ec.c(252): warning #1011: missing return statement at end of non-void function "ick_gettwospot" 21:09:07 } 21:09:07 ^ 21:09:26 oh dear, that looks bad, let me look at the source 21:09:36 ais523, full compile log: http://rafb.net/p/6uCztn52.html 21:09:57 ais523: 21:09:59 stop talking to yourself 21:10:00 src/cesspool.c(919): warning #1011: missing return statement at end of non-void function "ick_ieg277" 21:10:01 } 21:10:01 ^ 21:10:02 that too 21:10:03 or, more nonsense from me 21:10:13 tusho, you could try unignoring me 21:10:14 AnMaster: that one's fine, the statement before errors out and doesn't return 21:10:16 that would help 21:10:28 maybe I should start messing about with __attribute__((__noreturn__)) 21:10:31 ais523, anyway see http://rafb.net/p/6uCztn52.html 21:10:38 ais523, well ICC doesn't support that one 21:10:42 I do for Splint as it accepts annotations in comments 21:10:57 which therefore don't interfere with anything else 21:11:03 and I only use it on functions that GCC suggests using noreturn for 21:11:25 it didn't have any false positives or negatives here 21:11:29 oh, I use noreturn on functions which actually don't return 21:11:48 src/clc-cset.c(262): warning #187: use of "=" where "==" may have been intended 21:11:48 csro->shifts==1 && (sso=1); 21:11:48 ^ 21:11:50 hum 21:11:54 don't get that at all 21:12:09 on the other hand it isn't very C-ish 21:12:10 AnMaster: it's just not used to Perl, that's all 21:12:18 clc-cset.c is full of Perl idioms as a homage to CLC-INTERCAL 21:12:24 they tend to require a lot more parens to work in C, though 21:12:24 src/lexer.l(307): (col. 13) remark: REVERSED LOOP WAS VECTORIZED. 21:12:25 now 21:12:28 that should say: 21:12:37 REVERSE POLARITY WAS VECTORIZED 21:12:40 would be much better 21:12:41 :D 21:12:46 * oerjan read that as VAPORIZED 21:13:58 AnMaster: that all looks fine, some cases where I should probably use ifdef rather than if, but apart from that no serious errors 21:14:11 ais523, or #if defined() 21:14:27 #if (MULTITHREAD != 0) || (YUKDEBUG != 0) || defined(ICK_EC) 21:14:29 that would be 21:14:33 AnMaster: why do that when #ifdef exists, except in complicated cases where you want to test more than one thing in the if? 21:14:43 ais523, agreed 21:15:01 #if defined(MULTITHREAD) || defined(YUKDEBUG) || defined(ICK_EC) 21:15:03 right? 21:15:08 or should there be ! in front? 21:15:08 AnMaster: no, because it might be defined to 0 21:15:21 I want to test that it's defined and with a non-zero value 21:15:26 ais523, but ICK_EC won't be that? 21:15:31 #define MULTITHREAD 0 exists in several cases 21:15:37 AnMaster: yes, that's right 21:15:50 ais523, maybe time to update the ot same scheme 21:15:55 would make it easier to read 21:16:19 sed 's/#define MULTITHREAD 0/#undef MULTITHREAD/' 21:16:22 or something like that 21:16:29 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 21:16:46 .. 21:16:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:16:52 AnMaster: yes, that's right 21:16:52 ais523, maybe time to update the ot same scheme 21:16:52 would make it easier to read 21:16:52 sed 's/#define MULTITHREAD 0/#undef MULTITHREAD/' 21:16:52 or something like that 21:16:52 ugh, sorry 21:17:07 ais523, take your laptop with you next time! 21:17:08 ;P 21:17:10 AnMaster: the problem is that the MULTITHREAD and the 0 are occasionally kept in different source files 21:17:14 and my laptop's with me 21:17:18 I just forgot to bring its power supply 21:17:24 actually I might move onto my laptop now 21:17:30 ais523, oh wait icc can auto-parallellise programs 21:17:33 as the battery's charged and won't run out before I'm thrown out of here 21:17:36 to use pthreads in loops 21:17:53 AnMaster: well if it doesn't misoptimise correct code there's no problem 21:18:15 heh 21:18:24 I haven't done anything weird-control-like that isn't allowed by the C standard 21:18:35 I've just made a lot more interesting use of setjmp and friends than is normally considered sane 21:19:04 hahah 21:20:15 ais523, anyway there is no need for -W these days 21:20:26 use -Wextra if you have too, after checking it is GCC 21:20:27 AnMaster: it's a synonym for -Wextra, so there is 21:20:42 deprecated ones iirc 21:21:01 and as I said earlier, parts of C-INTERCAL were ported from pre-C89 C, so you can understand that it has trouble catching up 21:21:15 lex.yy.c(2254): (col. 2) remark: LOOP WAS VECTORIZED. 21:21:15 /tmp/ipo_icc1tzGiK.o: In function `main': 21:21:15 /tmp/ipo_icc1tzGiK.c:(.text+0x30): undefined reference to `__kmpc_begin' 21:21:15 /tmp/ipo_icc1tzGiK.c:(.text+0x3a): undefined reference to `__kmpc_global_thread_num' 21:21:15 /tmp/ipo_icc1tzGiK.c:(.text+0x24ab): undefined reference to `__kmpc_end' 21:21:16 make: *** [bin/ick] Fel 1 21:21:18 ok nice one 21:21:37 had no problems with cfunge with that option 21:21:43 AnMaster: mibbit changed parts of those error messages to sad faces 21:21:54 ais523, well that sucks for you 21:21:55 where it said :( 21:21:56 *shrug* 21:22:03 what option was that? 21:22:19 -parallel 21:22:21 to ICC 21:22:25 anyway I missed -static 21:22:31 it should work with them combined 21:22:39 I'm going to leave this computer and go onto my laptop now 21:22:42 see you again soon 21:22:45 -!- ais523 has quit ("mibbit.com: back soon"). 21:22:47 ais523, well 21:22:49 not really 21:22:52 going to sleep soon 21:24:44 -!- oklofok has joined. 21:24:46 i should probably unignore AnMaster 21:24:49 or i'll forget tomorrow 21:24:51 ais: for log reading -parallel will make it multithreaded in ICC 21:24:53 wait, that's a good thing. possibly 21:25:13 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:26:03 -!- LinuS has joined. 21:26:18 -!- calamari has joined. 21:27:37 -!- Tritonio_ has quit ("Leaving."). 21:28:25 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:28:44 ais523, going to bed soon 21:28:47 anyway it works for oil 21:28:51 but not ick 21:28:53 icc -O2 -W -Wall -parallel -Wall -Wcheck -wd810 -wd981 -no-gcc -xK -march=pentium3 -O3 -ipo -static -no-prec-div -diag-enable port-win -DICKINCLUDEDIR=\"/home/anmaster/local/ick/include/ick-0.29\" -DICKDATADIR=\"/home/anmaster/local/ick/share/ick-0.29\" -DICKBINDIR=\"/home/anmaster/local/ick/bin\" -DICKLIBDIR=\"/home/anmaster/local/ick/lib\" -DYYDEBUG -DICK_HAVE_STDINT_H=1 -I./src -I./temp -o temp/oil 21:28:53 temp/oil.c 21:28:55 that works fine 21:29:00 icc temp/perpet.o temp/parser.o temp/lexer.o temp/feh2.o temp/dekludge.o temp/oilout*.o temp/ick_lose.o temp/fiddle.o temp/uncommon.o -o bin/ick 21:29:02 that doesn't 21:29:07 /tmp/ipo_iccY7jGt7.o: In function `main': 21:29:08 /tmp/ipo_iccY7jGt7.c:(.text+0x30): undefined reference to `__kmpc_begin' 21:29:08 /tmp/ipo_iccY7jGt7.c:(.text+0x3a): undefined reference to `__kmpc_global_thread_num' 21:29:08 /tmp/ipo_iccY7jGt7.c:(.text+0x24a9): undefined reference to `__kmpc_end' 21:29:10 is the result 21:29:11 what does? 21:29:13 -static -parallel? 21:29:19 AnMaster: you probably need -static on the link too 21:29:20 ais523, I see it 21:29:22 not just the compiler 21:29:29 you forgot to pass it in $CFLAGS 21:29:37 you forgot to pass CFLAGS there 21:29:42 unlike the other time you link 21:29:48 that's because you pass $LDFLAGS when linking 21:30:02 ais523, well all cases I seen it uses CFLAGS too when linking 21:30:47 ais523, and you *do* pass that when compiling old 21:30:49 oil* 21:30:59 $CFLAGS is for the compile normally 21:31:02 so passing it in LDFLAGS as well would be double 21:31:04 for oil 21:31:07 maybe I should do it so $CC is used for compile and $LD for link, and they're both the detected C compiler by default 21:31:10 do I compile and link oil in one step? 21:31:11 musn't happen 21:31:15 ais523, you do 21:31:21 see what I said above 21:31:21 that would explain it 21:32:38 ok, looks like I have to work even more on the build system 21:32:41 ais: for log reading -parallel will make it multithreaded in ICC 21:32:44 you missed that 21:32:51 no, I got that 21:33:09 anyway I'm not sure -parallel will help all that much 21:33:15 I think it basically does mapreduce() 21:33:22 err s/()// 21:33:25 probably feh2.c could be redesigned so it would but atm it won't 21:33:52 besides ick runs very fast compared to gcc, so normally it doesn't matter about optimising ick itself 21:34:11 ais523, but would it break it's programs to be compiled with -parallel? 21:34:37 AnMaster: I don't see how it could, I'm not doing anything disallowed by the C standard so unless it's listed as unsafe in the compiler docs it should be fine 21:34:52 ais523, you said pthreads would break stuff? 21:35:20 src/perpet.c(664): remark #1599: declaration hides variable "c" (declared at line 285) 21:35:21 int c=getchar(); 21:35:21 ^ 21:35:22 AnMaster: only if calls and returns don't match up 21:35:22 ais523, ^ 21:35:38 AnMaster: that's why it's in a separate block, scoping exists for a reason 21:35:49 so you want to shadow it? 21:35:49 ok 21:36:05 just gcc will warn with -Wshadow for that too 21:36:20 src/clc-cset.c(303): remark #593: variable "ssrecord" was set but never used 21:36:20 int sstesting, ssbestsf, ssrecord, j, k; 21:36:20 ^ 21:36:40 AnMaster: when I need a temporary variable I create a small block so that shadowing will prevent an identifier clash 21:36:54 AnMaster: I can't even remember what ssrecord does offhand 21:36:57 http://rafb.net/p/cIjSdJ39.html is the last log from main ick compile using icc 21:36:59 let me look that up 21:37:05 ais523, going to sleep 21:37:06 night 21:37:10 ok, night 21:45:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | function g() is a big hint. 21:48:04 hi ais523 21:48:10 will you talk to something other than silence now 21:48:12 hi tusho 21:48:21 tusho: it depends on whether you say something interesting 21:48:30 i can handle that 21:48:32 something interesting 21:48:34 verifying that C-INTERCAL ports to compilers other than gcc is interesting 21:48:38 for instance 21:48:44 and that's what I was doing, if you were wondering 21:49:12 ais523: does it compile on my brain 21:49:22 tusho: I don't know, it doesn't really compile in mine 21:49:23 * tusho tracks order 21:49:31 it's a bit too large to grasp all at once 21:49:33 It sits at "DISPATCHED"! 21:49:44 ais523: my brain is pretty damn awesome 21:49:46 i think i could handle it 21:49:47 maybe 21:49:53 well, you know where the code is 21:49:55 if I augmented it with a large pen and paper extension 21:49:59 and "caring" 21:56:13 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 21:56:29 hey bitches 21:59:25 i don't think there are any bitches here. there is one dogface though. 22:01:23 dont make me rape your ass, bitch 22:11:15 -!- oerjan has quit ("And a nice evening to you too"). 22:19:23 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:36:11 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:40:11 old news, but new to me... programmable wristwatch with a battery that lasts 2 years.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timex_Datalink 22:40:23 hi calamari 22:40:27 hi ais 22:40:39 I don't think I've seen you here recently... 22:40:50 probably not 23:07:43 -!- ais523 has quit ("going home, and basically out of battery"). 23:23:01 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:27:50 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 23:39:32 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 2008-09-02: 00:00:41 pikhq: 00:00:42 ping ping 00:00:52 agora are trying to exile you because you're a shite speaker 00:23:56 -!- tusho has quit. 01:00:32 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 01:00:54 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 01:07:18 BITCHES OF #ESOTERIC, HERE ME 01:07:25 HEAR EVEN 01:07:30 I HAVE MANY TYPOES FOR YOU ALL 01:09:01 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 02:25:58 -!- Corun has joined. 03:11:27 -!- Corun has quit ("BAKED"). 03:24:32 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 03:27:27 so guys 03:27:29 hows it goin 03:27:55 oklofok, have i mentioned recently how hot you are? 03:45:23 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 03:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | fizzie pulls out his marijuana - "And this helped too". 03:58:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:18:37 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:28:00 q45t 05:28:19 silly num lock 05:28:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:29:37 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 06:49:43 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:05:43 -!- oklopol has joined. 07:05:43 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:34:19 -!- jix has joined. 07:49:38 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:45 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:12:49 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 08:20:49 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 08:46:20 -!- oklopol has joined. 08:46:25 I have no recollection of the context the current topic has. 08:48:06 Apparently I woke up at 16:00 one Friday, and the topic was GregorR's speculation on the reason. 09:14:05 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 09:25:38 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:26:27 fungot: How should I improve you next? 09:26:28 fizzie: see this: slashdot.org/ comments.pl?sid=99801&cid=8509203 linux. or at least a few people are making silly things for linux 09:29:17 fungot: Uh... I don't quite get it. You already have a command line interface of sorts, and are running on Linux; and I'm not going to expose that stuff directly to people on the channel, nope. 09:29:18 fizzie: but kelsey still has it. basically you get bloat at runtime instead of compiletime function an ok way to describe it. ( plt scheme actually has such a mechanism often named thus. all syntax-rules implementations based on this single statement of yours? :) 09:29:52 optbot: You're usually more coherent; do you have any good ideas? 09:29:53 fizzie: *Oh*. 09:30:02 optbot: What? 09:30:02 fizzie: !undaemon ctcp 09:30:27 optbot: fungot doesn't have any "ctcp" command, and I don't quite see the point. 09:30:27 fizzie: things like online javadocs, tutorial sites and w3schools have saved me hundreds of dollars in books 09:30:28 fizzie: according to our consensus, for " 3" does not mean that all rings should have a locale with an encoding that will be 09:31:00 Those things aren't very useful for serious advice. :/ 09:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | lisp is nice too. 09:50:34 optbot: Isn't it traditionally "a cat" which is fine too, not lisp? 09:50:34 fizzie: A recursive array. 09:50:46 A recursive array is fine too. Hmm, right. 10:14:19 -!- oklopol has joined. 10:22:31 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Jesus loves you"). 10:23:44 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 10:42:51 -!- oklofok has joined. 10:42:51 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:43:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Jesus loves you"). 10:44:28 hiya all 11:02:43 -!- tusho has joined. 11:06:35 -!- LinuS has joined. 11:26:19 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:26:32 -!- oklopol has joined. 11:47:57 -!- oklofok has joined. 11:49:17 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 12:08:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:26:45 hi ais523 12:26:49 you are early 12:26:52 hi 12:26:54 and no, I'm late 12:26:57 I still haven't gone to bed yet 12:26:58 ? 12:27:01 oh. 12:27:01 wow. 12:27:06 it happens sometimes 12:27:06 ais523: ... wow 12:27:07 :D 12:27:12 I can't sleep for an entire night... 12:27:30 i can, mostly because i stay up late. 12:27:35 so i'm tired. 12:27:54 although things have been working out to about 8 hours of sleep recently 12:28:28 -!- LinuS has quit (Connection reset by peer). 12:29:20 ugh 12:29:25 jksdfhisdfhsdkjfhkdjsfksdjf fuck reddit comments 12:29:29 "[citation needed]!! HAHA! Xkcd!" 12:29:37 what the fuck happened to DOING YOUR OWN RESEARCH 12:29:41 god damn. 12:30:09 No original research! 12:30:15 tusho: to be fair, if you make an assertion, you should back it up 12:30:23 Deewiant: of course 12:30:31 but it's done when the poster has made a negative assertation 12:30:47 "Hey, I bet this steals your passwords and eats your babies." "Um... no it doesn't?" "[CITATION NEEDED BITCH]" 12:31:05 you're the one who made the statement, give ME the evidence 12:31:12 hmm... there are burden of proof problems right there 12:31:42 just post the source and they'll shut up :-P 12:31:56 Deewiant: "but you could be running a modified version with extra evil" 12:32:04 (seriously, I am 100% certain they would say that) 12:32:15 sure, somebody would 12:32:17 most wouldn't 12:32:26 #ifdef LICENCE_MANAGER 12:32:44 (a line from pic30, a modified version of gcc with extra evil) 12:33:00 Deewiant: but I see it all over reddit 12:33:02 it's just annoying 12:33:07 sorry, it's called MPLAB C30, pic30 is what gcc thinks of it as internally 12:33:13 you can say whatever you want and if people challenge you you can just say [citation needed]. 12:33:17 bullshiiiiiiiiiiit 12:33:21 tusho: citation needed 12:33:29 ais523: [citation needed] 12:33:38 tusho: ( ais523) tusho: citation needed 12:33:51 ("that's evil" "i don't think it is..." "[citation needed]") 12:33:53 tusho: you may laugh, but people actually use {{disputedtag}} on occasion 12:33:58 (can be reduced to "that's evil" "[citation needed]" "[citation needed]") 12:34:01 there have been edit wars over it too 12:34:10 however, the ones who say [citation needed] are never the ones who understand burden of proof 12:34:11 :D 12:34:13 which means that there's a dispute over whether something is disputed or not 12:34:19 ais523: wow 12:34:43 tusho: there can be edit wars over the strangest things on wikis, Wikipedia gets them a lot but I think they affect other wikis too 12:35:01 for instance there was an edit war about whether a particular truck in the background of an area in Pokemon was notable or not 12:35:09 ais523: kind of related: people bugged me on WikiWikiWeb for not using my real name 12:35:15 because apparently using my real name makes me more trustworthy. 12:35:18 riiiiiiiiiiight 12:35:19 http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TuSho 12:35:44 tusho: it's not exactly that, it's that people who aren't trustworthy tend to be unwilling to reveal their own names for some reason 12:35:50 so it works as a filter one way but not the other 12:35:57 you exclude lots of people who are trustworthy too 12:36:10 ais523: actually, when I was young and naive I'd have a good reason not to reveal my name 12:36:13 my password was "elliott"... 12:36:53 tusho: anyway, where's the history link on c2? 12:37:00 as it is, it's very difficult to tell who's talking to you 12:37:11 arguably it doesn't matter, but that goes against the thrust of what they were saying 12:38:43 heh, c2 doesn't record contributors to a page forever, only for a certain length of time 12:38:55 so it's simultaneously anonymous and requires real names 12:38:59 that's an interesting compromise 12:39:37 Plastic SCM is saying goodbye to stuffy old software configuration management tools that are high on complexity and low on usability. With Plastic SCM every aspect of what you would expect from a configuration management tool has been enhanced. Trace the history of your projects with a number of graphical tools such as the per-file history that you can view through a 3D revision tree! How cool is that?! 12:39:41 I found it amusing 12:39:48 and it's more ontopic than the normal spam I come across 12:39:56 doesn't make me want to buy their product though 12:41:05 back 12:41:12 ais523: yes, that's intentional 12:41:16 also 12:41:19 plastic scm is quite popular 12:41:22 are you sure it's spam? 12:41:35 i haven't heard of well-known companies spamming a lot, reall 12:41:35 well, it's unsolicited bulk email 12:41:36 y 12:41:51 Subject: ?spam? Our Version Control tool is not just cool looking, its smart too! Is yours? 12:42:03 maybe someone else is spamming them 12:42:08 but there's no obvious reason why 12:42:14 it doesn't look like the work of a reputable company 12:42:29 maybe a phishing attempt disguised as spam? 12:42:32 that would be something new 12:42:43 ais523: you can find all the revisions in the wiki data dir 12:42:49 i can't remember where that is , though 12:42:52 and again they get expired 12:43:00 http://c2.com/cgi/quickDiff?TuSho 12:43:05 (found by clicking the link) shows the last change 12:43:14 it has no accounts, anyway 12:43:17 so it's all honour system 12:43:50 there is something very odd about that, but it resonated with me as being Wiki too 12:43:58 which makes sense, as c2 is the Wiki with a capital W 12:44:15 ais523: c2 is bizarre 12:44:21 wikimedia is such a distant relative 12:44:26 e.g. their Recentchanges is updated by a bot 12:44:29 once every 24 hours 12:44:34 just a regular pge 12:44:40 *mediawiki 12:44:52 yes, but even so I think I understand c2 in a way, pretty much any wiki model you'll have a faction of people on Wikipedia who thinks Wikipedia ought to work like that 12:45:14 and you get used to the politics after a bit, c2 is a bit like Wikipedia would be with a different political party in charge 12:45:28 ais523: it's kind of like america, isn't 12:45:29 it 12:45:31 both the parties suck 12:45:36 but one is mildly preferable :P 12:45:48 tusho: which one depends on who you are, though 12:46:06 http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ChangesInWeekThirtyThree 33rd week of 2007 ... listing changes from 2008 12:46:11 ais523: yea, i guess insane people differ ;) 12:46:17 [ICE BURN needed] 12:46:27 wonder how c2 would do citation needed. 12:46:32 probably add a long italic comment below it. 12:46:54 tusho: when I've worked on effective internal wikis they've ended up looking a lot like c2 12:47:04 indee 12:47:04 they normally act like extended group mind-maps, with hyperlinks 12:47:05 d 12:47:11 which is a good thing 12:47:21 although it's funny, wikis are actually a good replacement for most html sites 12:47:31 Wikipedia is pretty strange as wikis go, it's sort of like using Google Docs to write an encyclopedia with a wiki attached for discussing it 12:48:59 hmm... wiki software is strangely abusable too 12:49:13 for instance I wrote a JavaScript multiplayer networked chess program 12:49:18 using MediaWiki for data storage 12:49:44 ha 12:49:52 ais523: one problem I think mediawiki has 12:50:00 is that was designed for 'everyone edits, better make it safe' first 12:50:18 i think if you started with something made for a personal site-wiki-thingy that are quite popular these days - i.e. free for all, locked down permissions 12:50:25 then put the restrictions etc on top of that 12:50:32 it might result in something more flexible & less adhoc 12:50:50 for wikis, adhoc is good 12:51:12 well, yes 12:51:21 but not in the part of the software meant to be structured, ais523 12:51:24 i'm talking about the software 12:51:28 ah 12:51:57 e.g. for a personal wiki, you'd want something that you could poke about in standard tools for some purposes 12:52:05 sort of like the monks from HHGTTG, but instead of demanding rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty you're demanding a rigidly structured framework in which to be adhoc 12:52:09 so you store stuff in the filename (not much relational about well, documents anyway) 12:52:12 err 12:52:13 LOL 12:52:15 nice slip 12:52:18 in the FILESYSTEM 12:52:21 (how intercal.) 12:52:26 and use an existing VCS, etc 12:52:27 tusho: yes, very INTERCAL 12:52:30 and probably a DVCS so you could edit locally 12:52:37 and then, wow, hey, you get merging 12:52:42 which turns out to be helpful in a more open, public site! 12:52:44 see, benefits like that 12:52:49 btw were you reading what I said when I told you about my new evil idea for command line argument syntax? 12:52:59 kind of 12:53:12 sorry, I like telling people about that sort of random evil 12:53:23 I haven't implemented most of the random evil ideas I've come up with yet, though 12:53:52 ais523: incidentally, 12:54:01 http://developer.mozilla.org/En doesn't run on mediawiki, although it really looks like it at first glance 12:54:11 "Powered by MindTouch Deki Enterprise Edition v.8.05.2b" 12:54:28 http://developer.mozilla.org/index.php?title=En&action=history <-- The goddamn URL is even the same. The UI for the history is better, though. 12:56:21 http://developer.mozilla.org/index.php?title=Special:Listusers&limit=50&offset=50 12:56:26 that is the EXACT URI that mediawiki uses 12:56:27 :) 12:56:33 it doesn't look like it's based on MW, though 12:56:42 tusho: the UI for the history is the same, but skinned differently 12:56:55 ais523: but the other pages look different 12:56:56 e.g. login 12:56:59 the confusing thing is it's using the same URIs as MediaWiki everywhere 12:57:02 i think they just imitated mediawiki 12:57:04 ais523: well, no 12:57:10 but doesn't have any of the other hallmarks of MediaWiki 12:57:17 http://developer.mozilla.org/Project:en/About 12:57:23 lots of language stuff in the url 12:57:27 i am pretty sure it's not based on MW, anyway 12:57:32 i guess they just imitated the UI they likec 12:57:34 *liked 12:59:22 well it's open source, so I'm going to settle this the traditional open source way 13:00:06 indeed 13:00:08 check it :P 13:00:11 * tusho does the same 13:00:15 hmm 13:00:18 they only provide distro packages 13:00:20 and a vmware thing 13:00:21 enterprisey 13:00:55 ais523: http://wiki.developer.mindtouch.com/Deki_Wiki/Installation_and_Upgrade/1.9.0_Itasca_Source_Code_Install_and_Upgrade_Guide 13:01:02 ok, THAT is obviously not mediawiki 13:01:13 guess mozilla just made it looks like MW 13:02:37 ais523: can you slap me, I'm about to go off writing a wiki engine 13:02:43 and I Shouldn't 13:02:47 tusho: no, slaps tend not to work over IRC 13:02:50 at least not very well 13:02:54 ais523: how about a Swhack 13:03:06 ok 13:05:14 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 13:05:18 Deki Wiki looks worrying, anyway, it's full of dependencies on Windows and/or Mono 13:05:27 "Adding services, like Microsoft Windows Live Controls, as a built-in component 13:05:27 to a wiki is super interesting; MindTouch Deki Wiki is truly breaking new ground," 13:05:27 said George Moore, general manager, Windows Live Platform at Microsoft. 13:05:31 that's from their README 13:05:39 ais523: well, that's what microsoft want to do with it 13:05:44 ais523: if you read their installation instructions, they're for mono 13:05:49 nothing wrong with mono/C# 13:05:52 nice VM, nice language 13:05:54 well they have mono as a dependency 13:05:57 yes 13:05:57 and 13:05:59 ? 13:06:13 and lots of people are paranoid about mono because they think installing it allows Microsoft to sue you some time down the line 13:06:13 ais523: gnome depends on Mono these days 13:06:17 http://www.gnome.org/projects/tomboy/ 13:06:25 a gnome/C# app that runs on Mono 13:06:29 i don't think it'd even run on windows 13:06:33 tusho: no it doesn't, the person in charge wants it to but there are no Mono dependencies in Gnome core nowadays 13:06:42 ok, well ubuntu includes t 13:06:43 it 13:06:47 yes 13:07:02 apparently there are two programs in Ubuntu by default that depend on it 13:07:28 also someone put in a dependency for OpenOffice.org on Mono but there isn't a dependency there actually and after removing the dependency it still works 13:07:41 what gui toolkit does openoffice use again? 13:07:47 it's some crazy shit that looks like java but isn't 13:07:48 iirc 13:07:55 not sure 13:08:26 and arguably any GUI made by Sun ends up looking like Java, because it's the same GUI designers 13:09:08 they should fire 'em 13:09:08 :D 13:11:56 -!- tusho has changed nick to mupersan. 13:12:04 -!- mupersan has changed nick to tusho. 13:12:25 -!- tusho has changed nick to mupersan. 13:12:30 -!- mupersan has changed nick to tusho. 13:14:45 Well, mupersan has been defeated. 13:14:55 The name would trip me up if I didn't already have one. 13:15:23 Hm. Now language choice will trip me up. Damn. 13:15:26 INTERCAL! 13:15:26 tusho: the last few events here in #esoteric would look pretty weird to anyone who wasn't in the other channels that provide context 13:15:31 ais523: quite 13:15:40 oh, btw, hi optbot, hi fungot 13:15:41 ais523: no it's not :( 13:15:41 ais523: so include the code? :p) and all is well and good.' you can hang around in mystream. but when you pass your custom port to a procedure without naming it after " people who are used to 13:15:53 I, for one, am confused about what just happened. 13:16:26 fizzie: I don't think it makes sense without having been in ##nomic at the same time 13:16:27 Especially with irssi's nick-tracking-for-query-windows, which added a "You are now talking with mupersan" line as the first line I noticed. 13:18:58 fungot: provide some context for fizzie 13:19:04 fungot? 13:19:05 ais523: do you think I should give perl another chance for this? 13:19:15 fungot: test 13:19:15 fungot: Why so quiet? 13:19:19 tusho: actually I'd rather like to see it in INTERCAL 13:19:24 ^help 13:19:26 ais523: you can port it ;) 13:19:27 but that would be really difficult 13:19:31 Wow, been a while since the last crash. 13:19:33 i'm not insane enough 13:19:42 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:19:48 maybe I should make an INTERCAL backend for gcc, not sure if it would be easier or harder than brainfuck 13:20:01 worryingly many of INTERCAL's commands are not too hard to explain to gcc 13:20:07 It saw that ais523 "provide some context" line and got confused. 13:20:13 it can understand what ABSTAIN does to some extent, for instance 13:20:24 but it tends to assume things that aren't true 13:20:25 -!- fungot has joined. 13:20:48 fungot: Feeling better? 13:20:49 fizzie: ( indirectly via fnord and my blue fnord long underwear all ready to go through all words in the stdlib 13:20:59 Sounds... fungotty enough. 13:21:00 fizzie: guess i've not done any forth coding since... well, physically around me without specifying " good stewart" versus " xtu". ( advanced in his mind uses it. 13:21:45 Test hi 13:21:56 hi fungot 13:21:56 ais523: those are just the ordinary ( for call/ cc))) hangs 13:23:58 ais523: is there any actual justification for a lot of perl's weirdness? 13:24:02 yes 13:24:04 I can see how some of it leads to interesting stuff 13:24:05 but most of it... 13:24:21 Perl is designed to be ruthlessly pragmatic AFAICT 13:24:57 but a lot of the pragmatism is just silly & afaict not very helpful either 13:30:53 ais523: does perl have a Git module? 13:30:54 hmm. 13:30:56 seems so 13:31:02 ah. it's part of official git 13:37:28 For disturbingly many X, "does perl have a X" has a positive answer. 13:39:36 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 13:39:36 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:41:32 fizzie: libido? 13:42:00 tusho: well in C you could import that with -lido, Perl naming conventions are a bit different though 13:42:18 man someone make a protocol called ido already 13:42:18 :D 13:43:13 Hmm. I haven't bought any albums, recently, apart from this one. 13:43:19 * tusho Swhacks himself for being a naughty pirate. 13:43:23 * tusho denies that Swhack. 13:43:30 (/me checks download status...) 13:44:10 -!- tritonio__ has joined. 13:44:44 Why must there be throttles in the world. 13:44:45 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:44:46 Whyyyy. 13:45:12 tusho: to prevent one person being able to slashdot the entire Internet with wget 13:45:40 (there are ways to set its settings so it'll download every web page linked from any other webpage recursively forever, which will end up downloading much of the Internet, but this is a bad idea) 13:46:10 ais523: Or rather so that the file dump sites can sucker you into being a premium account. (I'd use bittorrent except 1. if a friend uploads it I can be sure of the quality & correct tags 2. It's more reliable, in general, whereas torrents often end up with incomplete files etc) 13:50:53 Woop woop. Downloaded. 13:51:09 tusho: what did you download? 13:51:19 An album. 13:51:26 Ugh, my fonts have messed up. 13:51:32 Always seems to happen after catting /dev/urandom. 13:51:34 * tusho restarts 13:51:40 tusho: use the reset command? 13:51:52 that cleans up a random cat for me 13:51:55 ais523: no I mean literally 13:52:00 even if I restart the terminal 13:52:04 how? 13:52:05 it's something to do with os x font caches 13:52:09 I imagine leopard fixes it 13:52:11 that's pretty bad terminal design... 13:52:19 ais523: it happens with any terminal 13:52:21 I think its an os bug 13:52:24 but it rarely happens 13:52:33 mostly if you give it really wacky unicode over the course of several days 13:52:38 how can the OS mess up the fonts just because you catted something to a terminal? 13:52:43 i don't know. :P 13:53:51 oh, btw I found an explanation of SGML comments that actually made sense 13:54:12 it seems that is fine in SGML (and therefore in early versions of HTML) 13:54:18 it is 13:54:26 because ends it, and -- toggles a comment inside a declaration 13:54:46 ah, that's how it got the syntax 13:54:50 that's why starts and ends a comment but ends up inside a comment 13:54:53 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:55:10 brb. 13:55:16 -!- tusho has quit. 13:56:48 -!- jix has joined. 13:58:21 -!- tusho has joined. 13:58:41 ugh, mouse out of battery again 13:58:50 that does it, after this i'll put back in my crappy old wired mouse 13:59:02 tusho: that's why I'm using a wired mouse at the moment too 13:59:10 ais523: it didn't used to do this 13:59:14 but it's been dropped a few times 13:59:16 and this mouse is very crappy, I suspect it's made of cardboard but am not sure 13:59:25 and I think that fucked it up 13:59:39 (the batteries have a little checker thing on the side and they always have like a third) 13:59:45 (and yet the mouse says they're dead) 14:00:40 tusho: could be a loose connection causing resistance inside the mouse, the battery charge would appear lower to the mouse because less voltage and/or current would get through 14:00:40 and I can see how dropping a mouse would cause a loose connection 14:00:55 ais523: something over my head like that, yes 14:00:59 it scratched the teflon base 14:01:08 so now it's awkward to use on anything other than a fibrous mouse mat 14:01:11 and it's slowed down a bit even on that 14:01:16 so i had to turn accelleration up 14:02:38 ais523: http://zeepmobile.com/ neat 14:02:52 they use the last 40 chars of the message for ads though :( 14:02:57 still. neat. 14:03:30 tusho: now all that's needed is someone interfaces it with Java, then we can plz send everyone the code 14:03:37 ais523: brillant 14:04:04 sending SMS messages from Java was the original question that sparked off that particular meme 14:04:10 yes, I know 14:09:00 -!- oklopol has joined. 14:11:48 So. 14:12:03 hi oklopol 14:12:20 hi 14:12:27 anyone an expert on mips? 14:12:36 yes, GregorR 14:12:36 i want like a spec, but i'm too lazy to ggl 14:12:38 GregorR is I think 14:12:48 hear that GregorR? we're pinging you 14:12:53 like this: GregorR 14:15:50 mp[e 14:15:51 *nope 14:16:41 tusho: the FSF have released a new propaganda video which I'm watching atm, it's good if you like unintentional humour 14:16:48 ais523: by stephen fry? 14:16:51 yes 14:16:55 i'll watch that in a bit 14:16:58 i like stephen fry a lot 14:17:28 basically they've persuaded him to spout propaganda lines explaining what FSF-free software is in terms that a kindergarten could understand 14:17:34 which is all very patronising 14:18:01 ais523: i'm sure he had a lot of fun being patronising too 14:18:13 yes, I agree 14:18:43 the FSF are still desperately trying to promote gNewSense 14:18:55 yea, i read the reddit comments to that video and saw gnewsense 14:18:58 and i just laughed 14:19:09 oh FSF, when will you learn about reality? 14:20:23 ais523: could you check if rutian's apache is gzipping pages it sends? 14:20:24 i hope so 14:20:25 they released it cc-nd 14:20:32 ugh, I hate -nd 14:20:32 tusho: I think I can check 14:20:40 it's evil 14:20:48 tusho: the FSF think propaganda should be no-derivs 14:20:55 ais523: yea, god forbid they get made fun of 14:20:57 the Emacs manual ended up being declared non-free by Debian 14:21:01 for a while 14:21:05 until they changed their mind about that 14:21:21 ais523: i think I might remix stephen fry's video to make the FSF look even more ridiculous (after watching it) and host it out of spite 14:21:34 and have at the bottom, two links 14:21:41 fsf.org - "Support free software!" 14:21:45 Lots of GNU program documentation is in Debian non-free, thanks to GFDL. 14:21:47 creativecommons.org - "Support free culture!" 14:21:49 "...wait" 14:22:07 fizzie: Hm, so Wikipedia isn't debian-free? 14:22:28 tusho: it depends on what options on the GFDL you select 14:22:31 Wikipedia is debian-free 14:22:40 According to vrms, I've got non-free packages like: autoconf-doc, gdb-doc, gcc-doc-base, ocaml-doc. 14:22:40 but the GFDL has all sort of optional extras you can add on 14:22:55 for including propaganda into a document in a non-free way 14:23:06 as long as it's unrelated to the subject of the document 14:23:07 Immutable sections were the thing I saw people griping about. 14:23:09 i have non-free software such as ... um ... I don't think it'll fit on an IRC line :P 14:23:32 Yes, well, I just selected some of the "-doc" packages I had; there's others. 14:23:36 in other words GFDL lets you add a section of propaganda to your documentation that nobody's allowed to remove, as long as it has nothing to do with the content people are actually looking for 14:24:25 of course people who try to use the GFDL sanely, like me and whoever selected the licence for Wikipedia, disable all the optional extras and just end up with a licence that actually resembles the cc licences a bit 14:24:55 i'd say something witty but I can't think of anything to make this funnier :) 14:25:44 I think the problem is that the FSF don't really 'get' free software, despite having invented it 14:26:06 ais523: my take on it is that the FSF are obsessed with making the general public all brainwashed to support everything they say 14:26:15 so they add loads of terms to obligate the spreading of the propaganda 14:26:27 (exaggerated, of course, but the basic idea) 14:26:40 they'd be good virus writers 14:26:41 tusho: bad news, it isn't gzipping, I would tell you in #ESO but you aren't there 14:26:49 ais523: ah, so that's why it's not all that fast 14:34:38 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/dbkAv776.html 14:34:41 not sure about it 14:34:44 but could be relevant 14:35:06 or could be false positive 14:35:12 AnMaster: those warnings aren't just in the compiler, they're in the C-INTERCAL manual too 14:35:22 they're potential gotchas for people writing code to interface with INTERCAL code 14:35:29 ais523, um? 14:35:31 huh? 14:35:40 ah 14:35:47 AnMaster: the manual warns that the variables won't be initialised and so don't rely on them being initialised 14:35:48 longjmp into a function? 14:36:01 AnMaster: yes, or goto into a block with initialised variables 14:36:07 right 14:36:13 as in goto a; {int b; a: ; } 14:36:14 ais523, anyway you could have a bug there 14:36:28 ais523, and this is not with EC stuff 14:36:30 continuation.i 14:36:32 -m 14:36:35 so not sure... 14:36:59 oh, wait 14:37:05 actually that's just a false positive 14:37:16 because those variables go out of scope before they can be used 14:37:24 the code for -m is more like goto a; {int b=2; } a: ; 14:37:29 which is clearly not a problem 14:37:52 it's kind-of obvious that's happening from the error because it's skipping a huge number of variables with the same name 14:37:57 which don't shadow each other 14:38:03 so they all go out of scope before there's a problem 14:40:38 * tusho downloads some more stuff 14:41:13 ok 14:42:24 17 minutes remaining... 14:44:55 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p144322651.txt readable and/or Cish? 14:44:58 i'm a bit rusty 14:45:19 oklopol: quite Cish 14:45:24 oklopol: those bitfields will cause havoc on an 8-bit system 14:45:27 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:45:31 ais523: how so? 14:45:34 oklopol: use int argc, char **argv though 14:45:37 instead of nargs,args 14:45:40 right 14:45:43 they don't fit nicely on 8-bit boundaries 14:45:44 but apart frmo that, it looks kind of like c from the 70s :P 14:45:46 which is cool 14:46:00 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:46:06 ais523: well then i'll just have to do the bitshifts manually. 14:46:21 oklopol: do you care about 8 bit systems 14:46:21 tusho: C from the 70s would be main()int argc;char** argv;{} 14:46:22 :P 14:46:26 ais523: well, you know what i mean 14:46:39 which basically means writing in python what the C compiler has for this exact case 14:46:57 oklopol: just do what you're doing 14:47:05 unless you wanna run it on a nes 14:47:48 -!- oklofok has joined. 14:47:48 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:47:55 i've managed to break another cable 14:47:58 god i suck 14:48:09 "as always, i want it to run on my own computer, everything else is just gravy." was my last message, not sure if you got it. 14:49:16 oklopol: no, leave it as it is 14:49:16 the compiler will sort it out for you 14:49:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:49:31 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:49:33 "sort it out"? 14:49:34 wb ais523 14:49:36 what do you mean 14:49:51 i need the bitfields to have that exact structure, because i'm writing that raw into a file 14:50:13 sort out the shifting the data into the struct? 14:50:25 oklofok: C doesn't guarantee any structure in bitfields 14:50:36 for instance, what's the endianess of a 26-bit int? 14:50:41 well that sucks donkey ass 14:50:46 it will vary from system to system 14:50:58 -!- Judofyr has quit. 14:51:03 the bits are guaranteed to be in the order you say but there may be padding between them 14:51:28 so basically i have to shift everything manually into an int 14:51:31 gcc lets you remove the padding with __attribute__((__packed__)) but I'm not sure if that'll work on non-32-bit systems, where your bitfields cross the boundaries between ints 14:51:40 manual shifting is safer, and easy 14:51:42 that sucks donkey balls 14:51:58 yeah, well, i'll stick with this one, and make a python program convert all that for me 14:52:11 not convert, shiftorize is the correct term 14:52:23 oklofok: why not just use attribute packed 14:52:25 it's probably the best 14:52:30 after all, you only care about your system 14:52:30 -!- tritonio__ has quit (Client Quit). 14:52:31 anyway i have some business to attend to, see you in a bit 14:52:32 so it'll be OK 14:52:37 tusho: well i kinda missed that line :P 14:52:40 :P 14:52:44 yeah, that'll indeed be okay 14:53:02 i think i automatically skip lines that contain something as complicated as __attribute__ 14:53:25 you will have to tell me how that's used later, when i actually start making this 14:53:45 oklofok: it isn't standard C, gcc lets you do that sort of thing but some compilers don't or have different syntax 14:53:59 ais523: yeah that's fine by me, but how exactly is it used? 14:54:22 do i just write __attribute__((__packed__)) in my diary or something? 14:54:28 you put the syntax after the } of the struct definition 14:54:30 or should it be written in the code somewhere 14:54:37 ah, after the whole thing 14:54:44 good, i'll be trying that 14:54:58 but, ima take a break from irc now, see you in a bit -> 14:55:03 ok 14:58:04 tusho: heh, newlib is formed by combining code licenced under 28 different BSD-style licences and the LGPL 14:58:15 haha 14:58:18 that's legal, but hardly good style 14:58:25 :P 14:58:53 it makes the copyright notice stupidly long 14:59:19 ais523: idea for a copyright license 14:59:34 for each derivative 14:59:39 you have to add one word to a one word story included with the program 15:00:20 tusho: I wanted to write an anti-copyleft licence which was still open-source; all derivative works had to add an extra condition to the licence, preferably a silly one which hardly ever comes up 15:00:24 heh 15:00:29 copyside 15:00:35 therefore derivative works can be non-open-source but the original is open source 15:00:55 I don't think I'd use such a licence except for something silly though 15:01:04 I mean, sillier than usual 15:01:22 ais523: what about a licensenomic 15:01:32 different derivatives could vote on license changes in their parents 15:01:36 tusho: combining a nomic legal system with a RL legal system? 15:01:40 exactly 15:01:58 that would get very dangerous very quickly, especially when it came to indemnification 15:02:16 ais523: it'd probably have a huge legalese of limitations 15:02:18 you might end up having to pay Apple the damages for being sued by Microsoft, for instance 15:02:24 ha 15:02:30 it'd only be for silly things anyway 15:14:32 a 15:22:52 hmm, is there an assembly that requires you to declare a register before you use it 15:23:16 you could have the speed benefit of not having to push everything @ call, but still have the safety 15:23:42 oklofok: C written entirely with gcc asm statements 15:23:54 well yeah 15:24:10 but that's even higher up 15:24:12 i don't want that 15:24:29 that gives you the speed benefit 15:24:38 it's just very verbose 15:24:47 the whole thing collapses into just the asm when it's compiled 15:25:00 sure 15:25:09 * ais523 recalls writing asm like that on a different compiler because they didn't know how to use the assembler 15:25:20 but, you don't have to specify the registers you use, and that's a bit boring 15:25:26 hmm 15:25:31 actually you do have to do that 15:25:51 you will have to elaborate on how a register is declared in C 15:26:05 inside an asm statement 15:26:16 oklofok: again you can't do that in general, in gcc you can declare a variable to be in a particular register 15:26:18 can't you just write any assembly you like? 15:26:31 and in gcc you have to specify the inputs and outputs to each asm statement you write 15:27:08 i should learn more about gcc, it seems to be incredibly awesome and great 15:27:35 it's good for doing non-portable stuff, and most of the stuff you're asking about can't be done portably 15:29:13 i don't care about portability, i mainly wanted to know whether that idea has been investigated 15:29:38 gcc's asm is awesome compared to asm in all the other non-gcc-based compilers I've used 15:29:48 well, i invented it for my stack-language->brainfuck compiler as well, it's not really an invention; guess that's why i specifically asked whether it exists 15:29:58 most of the others required you to guess where everything went when mixing asm and C 15:30:02 in the same source file 15:30:09 heh 15:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | print message. 15:46:30 optbot! 15:46:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you are not allowed to use a printout?. 15:46:34 optbot! 15:46:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Ah. Fine ;).. 15:46:39 :) 16:04:34 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:06:39 brb. 16:10:35 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 16:11:26 gcc lets you remove the padding with __attribute__((__packed__)) but I'm not sure if that'll work on non-32-bit systems, where your bitfields cross the boundaries between ints 16:11:26 manual shifting is safer, and easy 16:11:27 well 16:11:30 in erlang it would be easy 16:11:36 very easy 16:11:46 AnMaster: what if you were on a system with 11-bit ints? 16:11:51 not that they exist, but they could do in theory 16:12:14 well, 11-bit char 16:12:22 it would have to be 22-bit int, 33-bit or 44-bit long 16:12:30 and long long would be 66 bits or more 16:18:36 -!- AnMaster_ has joined. 16:19:48 -!- AnMaster has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:20:14 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster. 16:20:19 so 16:20:21 what was the last I said? 16:20:23 ais523, ^ 16:20:27 not that they exist, but they could do in theory <-- last I saw from anyone else 16:20:29 I said several lines after that though 16:20:42 [16:11] gcc lets you remove the padding with __attribute__((__packed__)) but I'm not sure if that'll work on non-32-bit systems, where your bitfields cross the boundaries between ints 16:20:42 [16:11] manual shifting is safer, and easy 16:20:42 [16:11] well 16:20:42 [16:11] in erlang it would be easy 16:20:42 [16:11] very easy 16:21:15 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/yehiAb75.html 16:22:07 _ means don't care in Prolog too 16:22:38 well erlang doesn't do back tracking 16:23:40 for union it would be harder 16:24:01 you would probably do it in two steps 16:24:22 <> 16:24:29 unless there was some easy way to see 16:24:46 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:24:49 for example, first bit set of Opcode means that it is a "Rinstr" 16:24:52 then you could do: 16:24:54 -!- oklopol has joined. 16:25:30 <<2#1:1,Opcode:5,Rs:5,Rt:5,Rd:5,Shamt:5,Funct:6>> 16:25:35 2# for base 2 16:26:00 I love Erlang pattern matching :) 16:26:07 ais523, it is so powerful 16:26:34 lots of langs have powerful pattern matching, unfortunately most of the really popular ones don't 16:26:38 -!- BMeph has joined. 16:26:54 I saw some code to detect if it was a MPEG frame. the function prototype was: decode_header(<<2#11111111111:11,B:2,C:2,_D:1,E:4,F:2,G:1,Bits:9>>) 16:27:02 MPEG frame header* 16:27:45 ais523, anyway how many got such powerful bit matching syntax? 16:27:56 -!- BMeph has quit (Client Quit). 16:28:09 -!- BMeph has joined. 16:28:23 it can also be used to construct, not just pattern match 16:28:34 AnMaster: Prolog doesn't have bitwise variables but it can match arrays and tuples the same way as that, and likewise can construct the same way 16:28:53 well erlang can do it for arrays and tuples too 16:29:37 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/C7qQoh24.html 16:30:10 in Prolog the entire lang's pattern matching, pretty much 16:30:13 with backtracking 16:30:45 well erlang doesn't use backtracking, doesn't really make sense for something "soft realtime" (which erlang is, not hard realtime though) 16:30:53 I should really write more Prolog, it's a beautiful language but I haven't written more than simple test programs in it 16:31:36 ais523, back tracking wouldn't be good for something performance critical 16:31:49 AnMaster: it depends on how deep it is 16:32:05 you can write Prolog so that every predicate is deterministic, then all backtracking collapses into an if 16:32:13 -!- Mony has joined. 16:32:23 ais523, does prolog have list comprehensions? 16:32:36 hi 16:32:43 hello 16:32:45 I'm not entirely sure what a list comprehension is, but I'm pretty sure from memory that it does 16:32:48 and hi Mony 16:33:06 1> L = [1,2,3,4,5]. 16:33:06 [1,2,3,4,5] 16:33:23 say you want to multiply each number in the list by 2 16:33:31 you could use lists:map 16:33:32 like: 16:33:38 2> lists:map(fun(X) -> 2*X end, L). 16:33:38 [2,4,6,8,10] 16:33:40 or 16:33:44 -!- BMeph has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 16:33:48 ah, that sort of thing's generally done using setof 16:33:52 3> [2*X || X <- L ]. 16:33:53 [2,4,6,8,10] 16:33:56 like that 16:33:59 where the list comprehension is mixed into the syntax of the rest of the language 16:34:01 that is a list comperhension 16:34:02 the last one 16:34:05 map of course isn't 16:34:36 ais523, eh? 16:34:45 doublemember(A,L) :- member(B,L), A is B*2; 16:34:48 well 16:34:51 then you do setof(doublemember(A,L),A) 16:34:52 [2*X || X <- L ]. 16:34:56 that is a list comprehension 16:34:59 map() isn't 16:35:03 that's almost exactly your list comprehension just with more verbose synta 16:35:05 s/$/x/ 16:35:10 ais523, hm yeah 16:35:42 ais523, you can have several comma separated entries after the || there in erlang 16:35:44 well, "list comprehension" generally means "that, but with less verbose syntax" :-) 16:36:03 of course all list comprehensions can be rewritten in terms of combinators like map 16:36:09 Deewiant: yes, a quick Wikipedia check shows that someone invented "Visual Prolog" which has a short syntax for a list comprehension 16:36:13 Deewiant, indeed 16:36:21 1> [ X || {a, X} <- [{a,1},{b,2},{c,3},{a,4},hello,"wow"]]. 16:36:22 [1,4] 16:36:24 Prolog tends to have consistent syntax rather than short syntax, though 16:36:31 pattern matching everywhere! :) 16:36:46 pretty much syntax can be deduced from the rules of the language 16:37:08 ; , ! :- are pretty much the only control flow operators you need 16:37:13 List comprehensions have been all the rage after Python did them; they added those to Javascript, too. (In Mozilla, although it might be in a later ECMAScript version too.) 16:37:17 and you don't need to write ; explicitly either 16:37:56 ais523, um, erlang got if and case, but you can always use pattern matching instead 16:38:11 however sometimes it is clearer with if and case 16:38:18 than calling another function for it 16:38:22 AnMaster: in Prolog it's always done with pattern matching 16:38:30 or with , 16:38:32 for if 16:38:33 sometimes 16:38:34 ais523, sometimes the alternative is more readable 16:38:45 it depends on if you're used to reading Prolog, I suppose 16:39:16 max(X, Y) when X > Y -> X; 16:39:16 max(X, Y) -> Y. 16:39:17 nice 16:39:24 AnMaster: trivial 16:39:28 tusho, indeed 16:39:33 max x y | x > y = x 16:39:34 but still a nice syntax 16:39:38 AnMaster: that looks like Prolog with a non-standard syntax 16:39:38 | otherwise = y 16:39:40 max x y | x > y = x 16:39:41 | otherwise = y 16:39:46 (just getting that in line :P) 16:39:51 ais523, it is erlang 16:39:59 let me translate it into Prolog 16:40:01 max x y = if x > y then x else y 16:40:10 don't hate if statements :< 16:40:19 max(X,Y,R) :- X > Y, !, X=R 16:40:25 well the "when" keyword in erlang is a guard 16:40:34 can be used with pattern matching too 16:40:34 max(X,Y,R) :- !, Y=R 16:40:39 hmm... that can be shortened 16:40:47 max(X,Y,X) :- X > Y, ! 16:40:56 max(X,Y,Y) :- Y > X 16:40:59 X,Y,X? 16:41:04 AnMaster: pattern matching 16:41:09 it matches the argument to the function against the result 16:41:13 ais523, it takes 3 parameters? 16:41:16 there is no distinction in Prolog 16:41:24 AnMaster: the return variable is always one of the arguments in Prolog 16:41:29 ah ok 16:41:33 things return values through their arguments 16:41:44 apart from pass/fail Booleans 16:41:46 ais523, so everything doesn't have a value in prolog? 16:41:54 AnMaster: functions are only pass/fail 16:41:56 AnMaster: prolog doesn't work like that 16:41:57 ah 16:41:59 well, not functions, predicates 16:42:02 it's a totally different paradigm 16:42:03 right 16:42:16 "Most actual digital computers have only a finite store." <<< wonder what turing meant by this exactly 16:42:19 they can put extra restrictions on their arguments as a side effect 16:42:21 tusho, yes though ais523 seem to suggest it is close to erlang 16:42:26 and erlang is functional 16:42:27 AnMaster: it's not 16:42:29 other than syntax 16:42:33 and functionalism 16:42:34 AnMaster: no, I was suggesting it had similar pattern matching facilities 16:42:40 Prolog is declarative, not functional 16:43:03 ais523, well I read that erlang is classed as something in between declarative and functional 16:43:04 well, functional is declarative to an extent 16:43:39 Deewiant: yes, it can be, but it's not really crazy declarative like Prolog 16:43:40 the difference is that prolog is logic programming 16:43:55 Deewiant: apart from ! 16:44:02 the cut messes things up so beautifully 16:44:07 although it's pretty hard to explain 16:44:09 what does ! do? 16:44:36 AnMaster: prevents backtracking backwards past the ! to earlier in the same predicate or an alternative to that predicate, backtracking has to go to a previous predicate instead 16:44:49 heh ok 16:45:14 ais523, does Prolog support files? sockets? 16:45:31 probably the best way to explain to a C programmer is that the difference between no cut and cut is a bit like the difference between if(a){do_a();} if(b){do_b();} and if(a){do_a();} else if(b){do_b();} 16:45:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:45:54 ais523, well I'm an erlang programmer too :P 16:46:00 AnMaster: not sure if that's in the standard library, the original implementation implemented files in a pretty quaint way with routines with silly names that tended not to be copied 16:46:00 well a bit 16:46:07 AnMaster: but I don't know erlang and I do know C 16:46:13 ah true 16:46:29 to get the Prolog equivalence working properly, think of do_a() and do_b() as either doing nothing or not returning depending on whether they can do something 16:46:30 ais523, concurrency in prolog? 16:46:51 AnMaster: they wouldn't mix well, loops in Prolog work differently from in most other languages 16:46:59 well, you can loop by recursion, which functional programmers are fine with 16:47:06 yes erlang does loops that way 16:47:09 and you can loop by backtracking which is just weird if you're not used to it 16:47:13 tail recursion 16:47:31 ais523, how do you cause a backtrack to happen? 16:47:44 AnMaster: any command failing, normally due to a lack of pattern match 16:48:00 ais523, won't it give up at some point? 16:48:03 AnMaster: you can look at http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/prolog.php for instance for prolog programs 16:48:07 AnMaster: when it runs out of possibilities 16:48:08 when it tried all possibilities 16:48:14 ais523, so how could you loop then? 16:48:22 AnMaster: repeat. repeat:-repeat. 16:48:33 ais523, meaning? 16:48:41 that translates roughly as "One way to repeat is to do nothing; another way is to repeat." 16:48:52 ok.... 16:48:53 which means that there are an infinite number of different ways to repeat, due to the recursion 16:49:01 ais523: you're kind of breaking AnMaster's brain 16:49:13 ais523, is this like tail recursion? or does it eat up stack space 16:49:23 AnMaster: you;re thinking way too low level 16:49:26 STACCKKKKKKKKKKKKKK 16:49:26 AnMaster: it doesn't eat up stack space, nor trail space 16:49:32 ah ok 16:49:43 it does have a problem with nowhere to save data though unless you use things like assert 16:49:58 so normally you implement your own leaky version of repeat so you can leave the loop at both ends 16:50:09 now is the loopie actually done by writing stuff in the first repeat? 16:50:17 tusho, a non-tail recursion would eat up call stack space, while a tail recursive one would basically be translated to a goto to the start of the function 16:50:18 so you don't just infloop nop 16:50:28 AnMaster: that's low-level thinking 16:50:38 oklopol: no, a sample infloop printing hello world would be goal:- repeat, print("Hello, world!"), fail. 16:50:38 prolog is a Very High Level language, as they're called 16:50:44 tusho, "what the implementation is doing" thinking yes 16:50:49 nothing wrong with that 16:50:55 AnMaster: it is when you're thinking about the language 16:51:02 ais523: oh i see 16:51:06 it's why a ton of things i try and explain to you go over your head 16:51:07 tusho: I know the naive way to implement prolog, so I can think in terms of implementations too 16:51:17 ais523: but he's not thinking naively 16:51:20 there are less naive ways that run a lot faster though 16:51:23 he's thinking about optimizations and stuff 16:51:28 it's just not productive in this situation 16:51:42 no I'm not 16:51:46 tusho: you need to read several mathematical papers which I haven't read to understand how Prolog optimisation works, apparently 16:52:00 if you want to do an infinite loop, for example a thread dispatching messages 16:52:06 then you want tail recursion 16:52:19 god, now I remember why I ignored AnMaster 16:52:22 as you will run out of memory after some 10000 loops or so 16:52:22 that's better. 16:52:32 now this is very erlang style of thinking actually 16:52:45 because erlang is kind of a mix between high and low level functional language 16:52:55 AnMaster: tail recursion or backtracking in Prolog to prevent running out of stack, a good implementation won't run out of trail in tail-recursion either unless you're doing something silly like building an infinitely-long list 16:52:59 erlang supports so called "linked in drivers" to interact with native code 16:53:14 for example someone made a "SDL and OpenGL" linked in driver 16:53:19 used by wings3d 16:53:29 a 3D modelling program written in erlang 16:53:58 ais523, indeed, but *non* tail recursion... 16:54:30 AnMaster: well you wouldn't use that if you wanted to write an infinite loop 16:54:42 that way you'd run out of both stack and trail, probably irrelevant which one runs out first 16:54:50 i don't believe in stack overflows 16:55:05 ais523, exactly what I said... 16:55:43 ais523, I'd say erlang is both high and low level 16:56:05 high level functional programming is perfectly possible, but interacting with low level stuff is easy too 16:56:37 not very odd when you think about it 16:56:40 well Prolog is definitely high level, it doesn't even have anything very equivalent to what most languages call variables 16:56:46 it is a general purpose programming language 16:57:04 ais523, variables are "one time assign" in erlang if that is what you mean 16:57:24 I heard somewhere that one of Prolog's original creators (or old developers) said that it would have been better off as a library in another language 16:57:32 can anybody verify that? 16:58:14 Deewiant: it's widely agreed on nowadays, I believe 16:58:21 ais523, there *are* ways to get around that, for example using something called EDS tables, which are mostly used by the transaction database mnesia coded in erlang, it need to be stateful for obvious reasons 16:58:28 AnMaster: variables are not exactly one time assign in Prolog, they get narrowed down over time 16:58:31 Franz's Allegro Common Lisp has a prolog query language built in 16:58:33 tusho: is there a semi-credible source for such a statement? 16:58:37 Deewiant: my brain 16:58:38 ais523, oh that is a new one hehe 16:58:42 tusho: so no :-) 16:58:48 Deewiant: cocks 16:58:51 wait, no 16:58:55 they dont' generally remember things 16:59:00 sheesh, thought i was on to something then 16:59:01 sorry 16:59:02 nor are they credible 16:59:03 no semi-credible sources 16:59:11 Deewiant: oh I know some VERY credible cocks 16:59:13 IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN 16:59:16 ... I don't know what I mean. 16:59:45 tusho: where do you get "it's widely agreed on", then :-) 16:59:48 said cocks? 16:59:54 my brain 17:01:03 AnMaster: basically in SSA a variable gets a value once and never changes, in Prolog once it gets an actual value it never changes (although the assignment can be backtracked past), but variables can be unified with other variables causing the variables to have to have the same value once a value does appear 17:01:19 tusho: your brain is that wide? 17:01:31 Deewiant: my brain is a cock, i think 17:02:48 tusho: i was going to avoid saying that 17:02:59 oerjan: it's ok, i can take the immaturity of this channel to new levels 17:02:59 ais523, heh 17:03:02 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:03:04 it's just hard finding a good time to do so 17:03:17 ais523, this sounds more like an automated logic proof checker or so 17:03:21 hmm it's also possible that my cock is a brain 17:03:24 but that'd be weird. 17:03:35 (I mean, weirder than this hypothetical "braincock") 17:03:49 ais523, no, more like: you give it some rules, and it works out a result that fits with all the rules 17:03:49 AnMaster: doesn't sound far off the mark, actually 17:04:00 AnMaster: that's pretty much exactly it 17:04:29 question: will it do "any ok match" or "best match"" 17:04:30 say 17:04:34 AnMaster: yes, were it not for the existence of ! that would be Prolog in a nutshell, ! throws the whole system quite out of kilter, which is why I like it 17:04:36 "any ok" 17:04:50 you have the coast line of africa and south america, and want to find the best possible fit 17:04:55 AnMaster: "first match", and you can get subsequent matches using something like setof or failing when you get a match you don't like the look of 17:04:59 within a given error range 17:05:20 or in your case you could mess about with assert, which is another way to go insane in Prolog 17:05:31 ais523, so prolog isn't suited for problems where there are "good" and "better" matches 17:05:38 like best possible fit 17:05:43 while no fit would be perfect 17:05:53 AnMaster: it's not really good for anything but headlong depth-first search which is bad for that sort of problem 17:06:07 that sort of problem is trivial to specify in Prolog but very difficult to specify efficiently 17:06:10 ais523, so what language would you recommend for the problem I suggested? 17:06:26 i'd recommend muture, if it existed yet 17:06:27 :P 17:06:30 how many albums have I downloaded today, 4 or 5? 17:06:33 i think 5... 17:06:46 and one arrived that i'd bought 17:06:47 AnMaster: not really sure, I can't think of one that fits offhand 17:06:56 tusho: sqrt(20) 17:07:00 well, I like all of them so far, so that's good 17:07:02 oerjan: wowzers 17:07:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection reset by peer). 17:07:12 made muture exactly for that, running it as a human computer can already accomplish fun stuff 17:07:28 ais523, actually I would use the "coast line" at say 1000 meters below the sea, I read somewhere that is a much closer fit than the "real" cost line 17:07:36 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 17:07:49 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection reset by peer). 17:08:23 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 17:08:28 the tectonic plates don't stop exactly at the seaside... 17:08:34 oerjan: lies 17:08:40 oerjan, true 17:09:07 oerjan, I'd blame erosion I guess 17:09:08 for example, i think britain is on the same plate as the rest of europe, and the north sea 17:09:16 + ireland 17:09:47 yes I know 17:09:54 also, sea level change 17:10:11 there was a relevant WP article... 17:15:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epeiric_sea i think it was 17:16:36 what *don't* you have vague knowledge about! 17:17:28 it's just a month or so since i discovered that article, and i had a hard time finding it again 17:18:32 (turned out North Sea had a link to it) 17:19:35 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgression_(geology) is also relevant 17:19:53 bam. 17:22:04 Lost the game/ 17:25:42 omg 17:25:43 i have an idea 17:25:50 oh dear, tell me anyway 17:26:04 a client filter that filters out messages like 'the game', 'i lost the game', 'the game: you all just lost it', etc 17:26:04 (n.b. this tends to be my typical reaction to anyone who claims to have a new idea, not just you) 17:27:09 he never claimed it was new 17:27:21 a wise move, probably 17:30:36 well, that was another good album 17:32:22 what you lisnin 17:32:29 izzi good 17:32:42 oklopol: no, i said it was good but i was lying 17:32:43 duh 17:32:47 why would i tell the truth? 17:33:00 i have no idea how good was it? 17:33:31 tusho: because it's shiny! 17:33:35 -4% in base -9i2 17:33:47 eek 17:34:04 er, what is that % doing there 17:34:52 tusho: I had that thought approximately immediately when you said "Lost the game/" 17:35:01 Deewiant: haha, awesome 17:35:02 oerjan: because 17:35:34 tusho: I was interested enough to look at /help ignore but too lazy to write the regex 17:36:25 Deewiant: .*[Gg]ame.* should work for most cases 17:36:37 ais523: a bit too inclusive :-) 17:36:58 TH/\T'5 WH/\T Y0U TH1NK 17:37:14 false positives are okay for that important a filtering 17:37:17 Also the ".*"s surrounding it are spurious, as it will accept a regex match anywhere in the string if you don't anchor it with ^/$. 17:37:32 fizzie: ah, I didn't know whether it was anchored or not 17:37:37 assuming anchored is more orthogonal 17:38:06 U \/\/ILL L0S3 TH3 G/\M3 /\NYH0\/\/ 17:38:47 oerjan: I have a Firefox extension to generate leet-speak, I only installed it for rot13 though and the leet came free with it 17:39:05 I used to have that one too 17:39:11 Y()|_| J|_|57 L()57 7|-|3 64|\/|3 17:39:19 ais523: GAME woul dwork with that, to 17:39:20 o 17:39:22 the question here is whether you have an extension to filter it, me thinks 17:39:25 YOU JUST LOST THE GAME 17:39:35 come to think of it that's sufficiently leet that I can't decipher it myself 17:39:38 oko 17:39:42 okoko 17:39:47 I had an ircII script installed which did leet among other ugly formats, once. 17:40:11 It did not convert from leet back to plain text, though. 17:40:20 okokoko 17:40:33 fizzie: the leet back to plain text converter worked fine on that string I pasted 17:40:40 oh, and okokokoko 17:40:41 a GAME fingerprint that maps A-Z to q? 17:40:58 Deewiant: wouldn't that be kind of pointless? 17:41:06 kind of? 17:41:25 Not just a "kind of", many kinds of. 17:41:25 besides, it should probably make all of A-Z print out the source code to the GAME fingerprint 17:41:30 in different programming languages 17:41:38 *, * -> *, * -> * -> *, etc. 17:42:02 oerjan: is that a Haskell kind signature? 17:42:03 okokokokokokoko 17:42:04 if so, what for? 17:42:04 okokokokokokoko 17:42:06 okokokokokokoko 17:42:10 a list of them 17:42:12 kokokokokokok 17:42:22 oerjan: ah 17:43:52 ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+[.----.++++] 17:43:53 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ... 17:44:03 fizzie: a work of art 17:44:08 oklopol: oko-approved? 17:44:25 is what oko approved? 17:44:30 that program 17:44:33 ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+[.----.++++] 17:44:33 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ... 17:44:44 i like it 17:44:53 especially [.----.++++] 17:45:12 oklopol: hmm 17:45:17 * tusho considers setting up ESO's Shrine to Oko 17:45:22 wait, no 17:45:22 it's oko 17:45:28 * tusho slaps himself 17:45:37 tusho: it's actually plp, there was an off-by-one error 17:45:44 ais523: like HAL? 17:47:03 oklopol: the oko shrine will have everything getting bigger and smalling and flickering and will be impossible to navigate 17:47:06 unless you are amazing. 17:47:23 aww, oko.org is squatted :P 17:47:38 apparently okoko is a surname 17:47:50 tusho: I once saw a website about how not to design websites 17:48:03 and they'd invented a navigation system which was even worse than the one they liked least 17:48:06 ais523: heh 17:48:11 what was it called? 17:48:16 Osuuspankki (a Finnish bank) has taken oko.fi; that's not surprising. (Although they're not using that domain any more.) 17:48:35 they were annoyed at navigation systems which just showed abstract shapes until rolled over 17:48:43 so you had to roll over each image to tell where you could go 17:48:51 oklopol: how many 'ko's does an oko site need? 17:48:55 so they invented one where the targets of the link were randomised on each rollover 17:48:55 okoko, okokokokokoko, etc? 17:48:57 (for the domain) 17:49:05 ais523: brilliant 17:49:29 ais523: http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/mysterymeatnavigation.html? 17:49:32 that's it 17:50:40 oklopol: well? 17:50:55 okoko, okokoko, okokokokokokokokokoko, ... 17:50:55 :P 17:53:21 And the Wikipedia Terrible Main Page Suggestion Combined With Bad Sig award goes to... 17:53:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page#Icon 17:54:23 tusho: there's a Main Page redesign competition-like object going on at the moment, there are therefore many candidates for the Wikipedia Terrible Main Page Suggestion award 17:54:29 not sure about the Combined With Bad Sig part 17:54:40 ais523: but that one is truly terrible, click the guys name and see it in action 17:54:56 tusho: I've seen the barnstar in question befor 17:54:58 s/$/e/ 17:55:04 ais523: but behind the logo? 17:55:06 spinning? 17:55:07 why do I keep leaving off the last character of sentences today? 17:55:25 ais523: becaus 17:56:03 anyway, I tend to look suspectly at anyone with 4 collapsible boxes of userboxes on their userpage, at least as far as main page design is concerned 17:56:46 oh wow, a wikipedia page that needs javascript 17:57:05 Deewiant: needs it? 17:57:13 most of the collapse stuff is designed to work without JS 17:57:14 contains stuff that needs it 17:57:24 although the way it's abused for userpages probably it does need the JS installed 17:57:28 I can't uncollapse anything with JS disabled 17:57:37 and I do have JS disabled for wikipedia 17:57:49 ugh, it should autoexpand without JS, someone's been messing up the autocollapse code for userpage use 17:57:56 a whole lot of dubious coding practices happen on userpages 17:58:25 hmm... if you can position:absolute things on wikipedia 17:58:33 then you could do a MySpace(TM) and make your completely own page 17:58:36 with just the basic chrome at the top 17:58:46 it'd probably be removed, but damn, gotta try that 17:58:58 oklopol: an oko shrine would have to run really fast, wouldn't it? 17:59:04 because while oko code is not fast 17:59:07 it EMBODIES fast 17:59:15 tusho: you can, but they started messing around with blacklisting various z-index messabouts because people were using them for trolling 17:59:29 ais523: ah yes, that one 17:59:33 GAWKY or something 17:59:36 with ascii goatse 17:59:40 all the ones that spambots have used automatically will be blocked, so you'll have to write the code an entirely different way 18:00:00 and no, the ascii goatse was something else but they blocked that too 18:00:24 hmm 18:00:30 i need to incorporate oko javascript into this shrine 18:00:36 perhaps news reports will be delivered by twitter 18:00:44 and got by making an ajax request to the archives 18:00:51 applying a formatting language for multi lines, etc 18:00:56 and accounting for split over multiple messages 18:00:58 then rendering it in the page 18:02:17 ais523: http://www.toad.com/gnu/sysadmin/index.html#firefox-eula-sux 18:02:20 Hear her. 18:02:21 *hear 18:02:32 tusho: Firefox has an EULA? 18:02:37 ais523: apparently 18:02:42 http://blogs.gnome.org/hughsie/2008/05/23/firefox-eula/ 18:03:36 well I never agreed to one on Ubuntu 18:03:45 ais523: presumably ubuntu remove it 18:03:52 yes, that's what I assumed 18:04:01 it's not like an EULA does anything in open source software anyway 18:04:08 ais523: speaking of browsers, seen google chrome? 18:04:10 besides, sed on a binary is pretty weird... 18:04:15 tusho: I've heard of it, but not seen it 18:04:18 the process seperation is badly needed, and IE8 actually excels in this area 18:04:29 and a new javascript VM is a plus too, js kind of sucks these days + a sandbox = yay 18:04:36 also a lot of the UI ideas look quite nice 18:04:46 just about every browser is getting a new JS engine anyway :-P 18:04:52 Deewiant: yes :) 18:04:58 should be coming out today for windows, apparently an os x version is following 18:05:01 tusho: apparently Slashdot has just decided that IEb2 uses more memory than Windows XP 18:05:01 and then linux 18:05:13 ais523: no wifi, less space than a nomad, lame. 18:05:31 s/nomad/monad/, or am I missing something here? 18:05:50 ais523: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23/1816257&tid=107 18:06:28 tusho: ah, Slashdot editor deciding they didn't like the iPod 18:06:36 ais523: cmdrtaco, even 18:06:40 admittedly there are still people who don't like iPods, quite a few 18:06:41 it's a rather famous post 18:06:48 but they are popular amongst the people who do 18:06:58 i use an iphone 18:07:02 though mostly as a portable web browser. 18:07:07 I don't use a mobile at all 18:07:11 (and ipod, though less often) 18:07:17 i never call anyone, pretty much 18:07:18 arguably my laptop's a portable web browser, though 18:07:19 except once recently 18:07:21 and texts are rare. 18:07:26 if a little bulky 18:07:36 and it needs to be in range of a wifi connection I can access 18:08:01 admittedly I generally use it to feed my web addiction before I go to sleep :\ 18:12:42 bye 18:12:45 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire..."). 18:15:20 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 18:21:56 g 18:25:35 http://www.kavoir.com/ <- crAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAzy 18:31:59 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:38:08 ais523: oh no. 18:38:14 oh no, oh no, NO! 18:38:15 http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10026577-2.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=Webware 18:38:27 ugh. 18:38:30 what a fuckup. 18:38:32 where do i opt-out? 18:38:42 come to think of it, isn't this shit illegal? 18:39:03 tusho: what are you referring to, the fact that the page you linked had no text put a headline? 18:39:08 s/put/but/ 18:39:14 ais523: um, no. 18:39:15 ah, it was just slow loading 18:39:31 more to the new advance in the war against privacy. 18:40:18 I normally don't worry about such software because it's too incompetent to do its job properly 18:40:32 let's just hope it doesn't become competent 18:47:07 What is it exactly that you would want to be illegal? 18:47:33 fizzie: I couldn't specify it exactly, but stuff like that. Anyone can just identify me in a photo like that. 18:47:39 (Obviously, it won't be that good, but that's the IDEA) 18:48:02 That's a violation of privacy. 18:49:33 tusho: where exactly is the violation? People teaching Google what you look at? Google using that information to find other pictures of you? Somewhere else/ 18:49:38 s/at/like/ 18:49:55 ais523: the violation is in the use of the feature to identify me & others 18:50:08 although since the feature has absolutely no other use, the feature itself is at fault 18:50:30 tusho: presumably it's for people tagging their own images Facebook-style 18:50:34 to help them tag more quickly 18:50:40 ais523: yeah, and I think that's bad too 18:51:03 i don't care if a photo you took has me in it. without my explicit consent you have no right to identify the figure as me 18:59:50 ZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM 19:00:10 on the subject of Web Pages That Suck, they found this: <-- warning don't visit if you suffer from epilepsy or similar problems 19:00:32 sorry, , I copied the wrong link 19:00:42 make sure you have JS on or you won't be able to see what's wrong 19:01:06 my god. 19:01:13 ais523: isn't that, like, an art site thing 19:01:16 if so it kind of makes sense 19:01:18 well, probably 19:01:20 without JS it's not that bad 19:01:20 but still... 19:01:29 Deewiant: have you tried with? 19:01:40 hmm... I wonder if that could be done with CSS nowadays, probably it could be 19:01:41 ais523: i think it's not a bad design for an arty kind of site 19:01:47 and no, it couldn't 19:01:48 ais523: I don't dare :-) 19:01:50 there's no < operator in css 19:01:53 tusho: except for knocking you out when you move the mouse? 19:01:54 you can't say "the parent of X" 19:01:58 ais523: that's art ; 19:02:00 *;) 19:02:03 the rule would be: 19:02:09 a:hover < body { background: ...; } 19:02:11 e.g.: 19:02:21 #link-about-trees:hover < body { background: green } 19:03:27 still, I reckon that design's inexcusable on any website, no websites should require the user to navigate with the keyboard because using the mouse drives them insane 19:03:44 also there's the apparent harmlessness of it before you hover the links 19:04:02 i think it fits for a graphic design site, personally 19:04:44 aww, they've changed it - http://moire.ch/ 19:04:45 tusho: you're insane 19:04:50 and yes, no wonder they changed it 19:04:53 ais523: yes, and? 19:05:19 tusho: most websites don't kill their users when they move the mouse from one end of the screen to the other 19:05:28 that would be an awesome site 19:05:34 ekillyourselfonline.com 19:05:38 tusho: I wouldn't want to visit it, though 19:05:43 I like the e in your name for it 19:05:52 ais523: They could travel back in time and put commercials on superbowl 19:06:03 they'd only cost $100million to make. 19:06:07 -!- Corun has joined. 19:06:15 and think of the benefit: people could eKill themselves! online! 19:06:20 tusho: there are standards for that sort of thing, the London 2012 Olympic adverts had to slow down because they flashed too quickly 19:06:55 ais523: the seizures were because it sucked so much 19:06:58 not because of the flashes 19:07:25 seizure the moment 19:07:27 tusho: they were, they have an automatic seizurometer 19:07:38 they had to slow it down to 1/4 of the speed to explain what they were talking about on the news 19:07:39 man I want one of them 19:07:46 oh 19:07:47 I thought you said 19:07:50 seizuromater 19:08:01 umm... that doesn't even make sense 19:08:02 egiveyourselfaseizureonline.com 19:08:05 seizuron 19:08:40 and it's lightweight cousin, the seizurino 19:08:44 *its 19:10:43 tusho: Okay, I was just checking that you don't advocate illegalizing facial recognition algorithms or something insane like that. (And sure the feature has other uses: you could use it to tag pictures from your collection containing the face of someone who consents, like yourself. In any case, it would probably be pretty hard to make it illegal to offer that sort of feature.) 19:11:25 fizzie: well, you can easily identify yourself without automatic recognition... 19:11:32 it's...not hard... 19:12:26 A friend with permission, then. And even tagging pictures containing yourself is hard if there are gazillions of them. Although I fail to see why anyone would want to add a "hey_look_its_me_hey_look_hey_look" tag. 19:12:38 eDeath sounds like something far less serious than death. 19:13:16 seizure the moment <-- heh 19:13:17 well lots of people tag photos on places like Facebook, I don't really understand it myself but apparently Facebook's quite popular 19:13:26 there is also the fancy design iDeath, which works straight out of the box 19:13:46 oerjan: You mean with plain old death you need to install all kinds of patches to make it work right? 19:14:09 yeah 19:14:24 no, plain old death is ok but kind of buggy 19:14:35 dthxi is the patch one 19:14:48 Death bugs might explain all the zombies that seem to be around. 19:14:51 iDeath is fashionable. Hipsters use it. Slogan: Die Different. 19:14:56 hahah 19:15:03 -!- ais523 has left (?). 19:15:12 tusho, :D 19:15:17 dthxbye _thinks_ it is fashionable 19:15:44 oerjan, what about plain old Death? 19:16:03 it hasn't been fashionable for eons 19:16:07 true 19:16:10 OpenDeath 19:16:13 there is always that :D 19:16:18 uh 19:16:19 death = windows 19:16:19 :P 19:16:25 tusho, good point 19:16:25 it _does_ have a large installed base, though 19:16:33 dthxi = linux 19:16:33 iDeath = os x 19:16:33 those were my analogies 19:17:01 hah 19:17:43 tusho, But some use the much more secure OpenDeath ;P 19:18:04 at least they think so 19:18:14 there was the Death Machine with its AI technology, but it was not commercially viable 19:18:20 AnMaster: well, I parodied apple with iDeath and am arguably an Apple fanboy but apparently openbsd fanboys can't bring themselves to do that 19:18:35 tusho, hah you are right 19:18:47 well I both like and dislike openbsd 19:19:07 on one hand, they made some pretty good stuff: OpenSSH, the pf firewall... 19:19:26 on the other: social skills = *even* less than tusho ;) 19:19:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:20:17 wb ais 19:20:19 aos 19:20:20 ais523: 19:20:55 tusho: 19:20:59 ais523: 19:21:49 Your :'s line up! Awesome. 19:21:55 fizzie: 19:22:10 fizzie: not really, given that the lines contain the same characters in a different order 19:22:38 ooh commutativity 19:25:23 45 19:25:37 656566969667596767665654657767444454646364454423435534432323321 19:25:45 61 19:26:06 (unsigned bignum)-1 19:26:11 0 19:26:25 (+ 1 MOST-POSITIVE-BIGNUM) 19:26:32 beth-aleph-aleph-3 19:26:44 (http://jwz.livejournal.com/854482.html) 19:26:58 s/-/_/g 19:27:17 s/[a-zA-Z]/A/g 19:27:32 AAAA_AAAAA_AAAAA_3 19:27:50 AAA AAAAA AA AAAAA! 19:28:07 oh ha ha, a joke from uncyclopedia 19:28:10 those are always funny 19:28:25 tusho: someone even based an esolang on it 19:28:31 ais523: unfortunately. 19:28:36 the strange thing about that joke is it has no obvious reason for existing 19:28:46 or even an obvious reason why it's funny 19:28:50 ais523: most uncyclopedia jokes are like that. 19:28:52 http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/AAAAAAAAA! 19:28:55 they don't really have a justification. 19:28:59 Deewiant: thank you, captain obvious! 19:29:03 hmm... can a joke be funny if it has no punchline, and no setup? 19:29:08 ais523: yes 19:29:11 like the null string, for instance? 19:29:16 "Very few things are truly justified" -- Oscar Wilde 19:29:25 tusho: more like, preventing others from having to search for it 19:29:33 ais523: here's a funny joke: 19:29:36 BUNNIES! 19:29:42 oerjan: nowadays, you can justify anything if you have a decent word processor 19:29:44 ("BUNNIES!" is not a punchline.) 19:29:56 ais523: ragged text is a lot nicer to read, though. 19:30:13 I didn't say it was a good idea, and not everyone agrees with you 19:30:19 :) 19:30:25 I think AnMaster would disagree very much 19:30:27 LEMURS! 19:30:30 Deewiant: probably. 19:30:36 though, uncontroversial is for screen use 19:30:41 This sentence is not a punchline. 19:30:44 oerjan: nowadays, you can justify anything if you have a decent word processor << :D 19:30:47 it has been studied a lot and proven that for screen use at least, ragged text is a LOT nicer 19:31:00 AnMaster: it's not an original joke, I misquoted it from somewhere 19:31:05 i prefer it overall, but for screen use there's really no controversy 19:31:08 AnMaster: Oscar Wilde did surprisingly well without one 19:31:16 well I always use justified text 19:31:19 much easier to read 19:31:20 tusho: on Wikipedia enough people wanted justified that they made it a preference option, and the devs hate adding preferences 19:31:21 even on screen 19:31:29 ais523: ew 19:31:33 unless I use monospace of course 19:31:37 although ragged is the default 19:31:38 like when programming 19:31:40 ais523, ^ 19:31:59 AnMaster: well, justifying program code is the sign either of an insane mind or an IOCCC entry 19:32:10 ais523, haha :D 19:32:17 AnMaster: 19:32:21 AnMaster: you do not have to highlight everyone 19:32:22 AnMaster: all the time 19:32:26 ais523: um i think one of those is contained in the other 19:32:27 AnMaster: because if they've just talked 19:32:31 AnMaster: then they're paying attention 19:32:33 AnMaster: to the channel. 19:32:34 ais523, I do tend to justify block comments however 19:32:35 AnMaster: thank you. 19:32:46 tusho, ah thanks for that :D 19:32:52 much easier to read 19:32:58 * AnMaster ducks 19:33:01 I tend to nick-prefix when there's more than one conversation going on at once 19:33:10 yes and there was there for a bit 19:33:18 * oerjan gooses 19:33:19 if I have two conversations at once with the same person in the same channel I normally nick-prefix one and not the opther 19:33:32 huh 19:33:34 AnMaster: ais523: oerjan: In future I'm going to nickping everyone active when I want to address everyone 19:33:35 ok that is strange 19:33:39 AnMaster: ais523: oerjan: so i'm sure they can see it 19:33:51 I agree with ais523 however there 19:34:04 and I'm going to do something else: tusho 19:34:04 tusho: optbot: fungot: that can get annoying when some of the addressees are irrelevant 19:34:05 ais523: gambit's compiler is somewhat better than realtime, meaning joe and jane average don't use linux 19:34:05 ais523: No. Everyone would have to leave here to keep the secret. 19:34:11 I'm going to nick suffix: tusho 19:34:21 i'm going to do something different too 19:34:24 classic: AnMaster 19:34:31 i just did it! ais523: i bet you can guess what it is 19:34:35 is it classic? didn't know that, ais523 19:35:14 anyway, I think I'll have a go at compiling newlib into brainfuck:AnMaster 19:35:19 middle-fix it, tusho? I guess so 19:35:21 ais523: don't wanna guess? 19:35:29 that way I don't have to implement more than about 8 or so functions 19:35:38 and a couple of them are trivial 19:35:40 ais523, still don't have internet at home btw? 19:35:49 no: AnMaster 19:35:52 :/ 19:35:54 An: i like circumfix :Master 19:36:21 that doesn't highlight (oerjan) highlight me 19:36:36 oTeHrAjTa nC:O U L D M A K E I T H A R D T O H I G H L I G H T 19:36:37 ooh 19:36:59 now please nobody tell me off for shouting 19:36:59 ais523: hmm? 19:37:18 otehrajta, atjarheto? 19:37:22 huh? 19:37:37 highlight(ais523). 19:37:43 wow, I'm surprised neither of you figured out what I just did 19:37:54 i'm waiting ais523 19:37:55 ais523, rot13? 19:38:03 railfence can be hard to read but I put one set of characters in uppercase and the other in lowercase to make it easier 19:38:10 read the uppercase and lowercase separately 19:38:25 ais523: what do you mean didn't figure out 19:38:25 OMG 19:38:27 oerja that? 19:38:28 all 2003 logs are gone from http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ 19:38:35 tusho, huh? 19:38:37 that's strange 19:38:50 tusho: do you still have them saved for optbot? 19:38:51 ais523: nothing really 19:38:54 i don't have to comment on every obvious thing 19:38:58 ais523: yep 19:39:24 tusho, so upload them somewhere 19:39:35 Uh? There's still old/esoteric-03.zip there. 19:39:41 ah! 19:40:50 oh 19:40:55 right :P 19:41:23 is this nef guy dead? 19:41:34 he does't seem to have updated thinsg since like 2006 19:49:52 -!- oerjan has quit ("ZZZZZZZZZZ"). 19:55:02 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:55:30 Oh, right; happened across that old old Penny Arcade comic the earlier webdesign conversation immediately reminded me of: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/1999/3/3 19:56:03 fizzie: did you visit the website in question with JS on? 19:56:13 tusho: is tunes dead? 19:56:17 ais523: yep 19:56:20 completely 19:56:25 The one discussed here? Nope. 19:56:27 for some years now 19:56:30 fizzie: tunes.org 19:56:52 it was kind of wheezing out the last breaths it could manage in 2003, 2004 19:56:58 but had been inactive a little before that 19:57:05 since then it's just a ghost town 19:57:23 there are still people in #tunes but they never speak until you comment on how dead the place is and they joke that it'll be active again one day. 20:02:48 ais523: well, that's the first time I've seen someone claim that the IE team has "imperial contempt for the world and all its people" seriously 20:03:00 where? 20:03:09 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6z460/official_google_blog_a_fresh_take_on_the_browser/c059gba, third child now 20:03:10 *down 20:05:24 God damn. hoodwink.d (http://hoodwink.d/) is still down. 20:05:28 -!- olsner has joined. 20:05:38 .d? 20:05:41 is that a real TLD? 20:05:50 ais523: no, you have to add hoodwink.d to your hosts file to go to it 20:06:04 so does it actually have a domain name then? 20:06:14 nope, but the ip doesn't work directly as it hosts multiple sites 20:06:17 so you have to add it to your hosts 20:06:18 after all you could aim, say, example.com there if you really wanted to 20:06:25 no 20:06:27 the Host header would be wrong 20:06:37 anyway, it's a site+greasemonkey script by why the lucky stiff that lets you comment on any site at all 20:06:43 it uses xpath expressions to find out where to put the comment box 20:06:49 it's a little underground toy thing and it was a lot of fun 20:06:56 but sometime in 2007 it just stopped working. :( 20:07:13 that actually sounds like an interesting idea 20:07:30 it is 20:07:31 -!- LinuS has joined. 20:07:49 ais523: one of the funniest was on wikipedia 20:07:59 people put nonsense articles in the comments for nonexistent articles 20:08:10 so that you could actually go there and see the article, albeit not in the content box 20:09:17 hey perhaps i could revive it myself 20:09:21 ... Nah. Nobody would use it. 20:09:44 I think there have been at least some "leave comments on any site" thingies; never have used any of them, though. 20:10:00 fizzie: this one was funnier, though, because of the undergroundness of it all 20:10:09 it had its own little forum which didn't do any foruming at all 20:10:16 it just had a hoodwink.d entry and put that in the content area 20:10:27 so all it handled was giving a new uri out on request 20:10:34 and to top it off, you couldn't see it 20:10:37 if you went there, it just wasn't there 20:10:41 because everything was display: none 20:10:44 so you had to add a user style 20:12:07 bye for a while (hour or so) 20:12:31 What sort of time zone was tusho in, anyway? 20:13:32 fizzie: UTC+1 20:13:37 the same as me 20:15:36 Oh, okay. 20:17:25 are there any java fanboys here? 20:17:39 I doubt it, we tend to scare them out of existence 20:17:39 The fact that the mentioned zeepmobile.com site only works in the US sort-of confused me. 20:17:47 ais523, good 20:17:54 heh 20:17:58 What do you need a Java fanboy for? 20:18:31 however I was looking for a fight with someone, since I tried to make a java app run and it just cause all sorts of problems 20:18:53 oh well 20:19:12 I'm sure there's a ##java or something. 20:19:26 tusho, are you ignoring randomly currently? 20:20:26 you will love this (and no: I'm making a joke, I don't really care about it, I was looking for something else when I came a across this) "Intel® VTune™ Performance Analyzer 9.0 for Linux" ... but I can't use it, not free software 20:20:28 * AnMaster ducks 20:20:33 http://www.intel.com/cd/software/products/asmo-na/eng/vtune/239145.htm btw 20:20:47 I was looking for ICC for Linux x86_64 download actually 20:20:53 since I needed to try something out 20:21:25 AnMaster: Intel invented powertop too IIRC, that's something that Windows has no real hope of replicating atm 20:21:39 ais523, yes but powertop is open source 20:21:43 Isn't ICC a bit non-free, though? 20:21:43 so I like it and use it 20:21:48 fizzie, indeed it is 20:21:53 but I need to make sure stuff compiles 20:22:09 so does cfunge compile on VC? 20:22:19 Deewiant, it does compile on ICC 20:22:37 but current software uses X, my P3 that got ICC on it doesn't have X 20:22:49 it doesn't even have any screen 20:22:51 LLVM? DMC? Comeau? 20:23:03 Deewiant, gcc-llvm tested, works fine 20:23:04 Borland? 20:23:07 DMC and comeau? 20:23:11 I don't know what they are 20:23:17 MSVC doesn't do C99 20:23:24 -!- oklofok has joined. 20:23:26 Borland, don't plan to pay anything 20:23:36 hmm, I'm somewhat surprised you haven't at least heard of Comeau 20:23:46 but I guess it's more of a C++ thing 20:23:49 Borland compilers are available, I think. At least some of 'em were at some point. 20:23:51 AnMaster: pretty much nobody does all of C99, gcc implements the more often used bits though 20:23:52 Deewiant, Comeau sounds slightly familiar 20:23:56 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:24:00 ais523, err ICC does it more or less 20:24:11 Comeau has pretty much the best standards support AFAICT 20:24:14 not free though 20:24:17 ah 20:24:17 well 20:24:21 what about Sun CC? 20:24:23 I can get ICC for no cost 20:24:32 I thought it supported C99 nowadays, I might be wrong though 20:24:35 free as in beer, but not open 20:25:05 ais523, and about C99, iirc the ICC frontend is pretty good, oh and GCC are working on it too 20:25:13 GCC is getting better at C99 20:25:19 somewhat evidently: http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/819-5265/bjayy?a=view 20:25:22 part of the problem is that gcc's only about two-thirds of a compiler 20:25:29 http://gcc.gnu.org/c99status.html is looking reasonably good already. 20:25:35 the libraries need to handle it too, also the linker 20:26:04 on windows, the problem is the libraries 20:26:22 MSVCRT doesn't have any C99 stuff 20:26:42 damn complex.h is broken 20:26:45 I wouldn't be surprised if it lacked some obscure part of C90, too :-P 20:26:51 and I was planning a project using complex numbers 20:26:52 oh well 20:26:56 have to use something else 20:27:00 or do the maths myself 20:27:18 of course you might want to check what "broken" actually means 20:27:30 for instance, VLAs are "broken" but most cases probably work fine 20:27:30 Deewiant, and I got syntax errors from Visual Studio C++ Express or whatever it is called 20:27:34 You can also get Borland C++ Compiler 5.5 free-as-in-beer too. Very new; released in the year 2000. 20:27:35 AnMaster: it's not very broken, it probably just doesn't conform with the specs in some cases 20:27:38 was 2005 edition or 2008 edition 20:27:43 Deewiant, and it was a legal C99 think 20:27:45 thing* 20:27:50 fizzie: where? I still have bc4 at home 20:27:55 so it would be an upgrade for me... 20:27:59 ip ips[]; 20:28:01 AnMaster: well, it doesn't support C99 so that's not unexpected. 20:28:02 at end of struct 20:28:06 Deewiant, exactly 20:28:14 www.codegear.com/downloads/free/cppbuilder 20:28:52 I had 4.x from a pcplus magazine cover CD, too. That was some time ago., 20:29:44 fizzie, does it do C99 at all? 20:29:49 and is it for Linux? 20:29:53 I don't have windows any more 20:29:56 AnMaster: no, it's for windows and is C89/C++98 20:29:58 since several months 20:30:02 well then 20:30:09 that's an improvement, bc4 was well before C++98 20:30:11 no point in even trying cfunge under it 20:30:25 That's also the command-line stuff only; I had the IDE parts of bc4 too. 20:30:38 and so its C++ wasn't very standard, I have #ifdefs all over my C++ code that I wrote to compile on both bc4 and g++ 20:30:45 fizzie: yes, I have the IDE parts too 20:30:47 ICC handles the parts of C99 that cfunge use, So does GCC 20:30:55 however there is a known library issue on FreeBSD 20:31:03 FreeBSD lacks sinl() cosl() and such 20:31:05 Comeau is the only compiler that supports the C++98 feature "export templates" 20:31:08 ie, the long double ones 20:31:20 Deewiant, "export templates" what is that? 20:31:39 google it, I can't easily explain it in a few lines 20:31:44 especially if you're unfamiliar with C++ 20:31:50 well I know some basic stuff 20:31:59 oh dear, yes Deewiant's right here 20:32:00 and I know similiar concepts from other languages 20:32:04 templates are bad enough as they are 20:32:05 I have coded in C# 20:32:07 I admit that 20:32:23 ais523, aren't templates like type generic classes or such? 20:32:27 can cause all sorts of weirdness in C++, for instance they can do Turing-complete calculations at compile time 20:32:32 ie List List 20:32:33 and so on 20:32:35 right? 20:32:41 yes, in the simple case 20:32:42 AnMaster: a bit, well a lot really except there are a huge number of edge/corner cases 20:32:49 but also Factorial<10> can give 3628800 20:32:57 Deewiant, ok *that* is strange 20:32:58 as a compile-time constant 20:33:03 oh my 20:33:14 AnMaster: hehe, good luck copying stuff from CCBI when the next version comes out 20:33:20 it uses templates a /LOT/ to generate code 20:33:22 ah well the simple case here, that is about what C#'s generic classes implement 20:33:28 Deewiant, ouch why? 20:33:34 Deewiant, and does D have that really 20:33:36 simpler that way 20:33:40 because they're oh so esoteric 20:33:41 yes, D's templates are more powerful than C++'s 20:33:43 Deewiant, + you can't do that for all fingerprints 20:33:51 what do you mean 20:33:52 Deewiant: no they aren't, C++'s are turing-complete 20:33:56 you don't even know what I do :-P 20:34:13 Deewiant, the stuff I reuse is basically when the fingerprint specs are too vague and you have already implemented it 20:34:18 ais523: well, I suppose you know what I meant 20:34:20 Deewiant, I implemented my SOCK not looking at your 20:34:22 for example 20:34:36 and your NULL I suppose ;-) 20:34:44 I think C# generics have more in common with Java generics than C++ templates. Does C# even do code generation with them? Java ones at least are implemented with that type erasure thing. 20:34:54 Deewiant, and a lot more 20:35:10 Deewiant, issues are stuff like butterfly operator in TOYS 20:35:27 and 3DSP since I don't know matrix manipulation 20:35:42 fizzie: Java templates are an utter mess, they tried to retrofit them to a language that doesn't like them 20:35:45 fizzie, I think they could be done at runtime 20:36:06 and as a result you have a lot of random arbitrary casts and such trying to get things to the right data type 20:36:13 anyway doesn't lisp have some sort of powerful macros? 20:36:14 iirc 20:36:16 Well, they're not even called "templates" there. 20:36:32 maybe you could approximate that using C++ templates! 20:36:32 XD 20:36:34 AnMaster: Lisp macros are like text substitution on steroids 20:36:38 ais523, hah 20:36:45 they're more like #define than template 20:36:47 D's have approximately the same power as those of Lisp 20:36:47 ais523, how does that factorial one work? 20:36:53 but the syntax is of course much uglier 20:36:55 or wait 20:36:56 AnMaster: recursion in the template definition 20:36:59 ah 20:37:01 and they don't currently work on ASTs directly 20:37:03 only strings 20:37:09 I couldn't write it offhand though, I'm not very good at writing C++ templates 20:37:16 which makes it an occasional pain to work with 20:37:24 also another thing with C++ 20:37:31 cout << foo; 20:37:43 what the heck does bitshift have to do with STDOUT? 20:37:44 really 20:37:45 AnMaster: operand overloading 20:37:53 ais523, yes but it is silly operator overloading 20:37:56 that makes no sense 20:37:57 I mean 20:37:57 the answer is "nothing, so we can use the << operator for something else" 20:38:04 ais523, well that is confusing 20:38:05 that was a bad choice 20:38:11 honestly :-P 20:38:24 really operator overloading has it's uses 20:38:38 say you implement a class that does number as fractions of BIGNUMS 20:38:54 AnMaster: that's sane operator overloading, go and talk about it in a sane channel 20:38:56 so you can represent stuff like 1/9 precisely 20:39:04 then you could overload / * and so on 20:39:15 but using << for "write to output" 20:39:16 well 20:39:18 you can overload casts too in C++ 20:39:20 that's just insane 20:39:23 ais523, um huh? 20:39:26 AnMaster: you've actually seen D's templates in CCBI already, mixin (Code!("NULL")) and so forth 20:39:33 like define (int) to mean something different on your class 20:39:37 then you can cast it to int easily 20:39:40 AnMaster: so that you can do (int)bignum 20:39:59 although C++ has 4 different types of cast so you can explain to the compiler why you're doing it 20:40:07 one of which can only be resolved at runtime 20:40:19 hooray for 5 different ways to cast 20:40:27 because of polymorphism, the time an object looks like at compile time is not necessarily the type it actually is 20:40:34 s/time/type/ 20:41:22 If you want to see template nastinessitude, Boost is a nice place to look at; for example Boost.Lambda, http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_36_0/doc/html/lambda.html -- I _think_ the implementation was pretty template-heavy. 20:41:48 It is rather extreme in any case. 20:41:48 Deewiant, ah ok 20:41:50 makes sense 20:42:10 although C++ has 4 different types of cast so you can explain to the compiler why you're doing it 20:42:10 one of which can only be resolved at runtime 20:42:14 4 different ones? 20:42:15 HUH? 20:42:23 I can think of two 20:42:28 AnMaster: const_cast which adds or removes const/volatile 20:42:28 AnMaster: 5 20:42:32 "have say (foo) explicitly" 20:42:32 and 20:42:38 "happens automatically" 20:42:46 static_cast which is for casts that can be calculated at compile time 20:42:47 like double bar = somefloat 20:42:56 AnMaster: the latter, implicit casting, wasn't included 20:42:58 dynamic_cast is the one that only works at runtime 20:42:59 ais523, ah ok, makes sense I guess 20:43:00 AnMaster: with that, it's 6. :-P 20:43:06 I've forgotten what the fourth named one is 20:43:10 ais523, dynamic cast? 20:43:11 huh 20:43:12 reinterpret_cast 20:43:21 Deewiant, and that is? 20:43:26 I can't remember 20:43:29 Deewiant: ah yes, taking the bit pattern of something and interpreting it as a different data type 20:43:30 I only ever use static_cast 20:43:32 With dynamic_cast(bar); you get a NULL out of it if "bar" is not a Foo pointer. Or something like that. 20:43:36 like interpreting a pointer as an int 20:43:41 ais523, ever heard of union 20:43:42 ... 20:43:57 And reinterpret_cast is the one which looks most like the C casts. 20:43:57 AnMaster: want to define a new union type every time you do that? 20:44:01 AnMaster: yes, but that's type-punning and that's wrong, in fact it can be optimised to not work correctly in some cases in C++ I think 20:44:03 hm 20:44:14 ais523, type-punning? 20:44:17 even in C 20:44:25 -!- minirop has joined. 20:44:44 AnMaster: there's an example in the GCC docs, say you have a union of a float and an int, then you assign to the int and return a pointer to the float to the function, then access a float through that pointer 20:44:45 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_punning 20:44:47 ais523, if union breaks the compiler is obviously wrong 20:45:04 it's not necessarily going to have been set from the bits of the int, according to the C standard, it might just read garbage 20:45:07 ais523, well I do use float/int unions 20:45:08 due to the aliasing rules 20:45:15 don't think I return pointers to one of them 20:45:19 AnMaster: well on gcc it only breaks when pointers are involved 20:45:30 ais523, no pointers except to the whole union 20:45:33 Yes; the C standard says that if you write a union using one member, you must not read it through any other member. 20:45:43 For example, reading from a different union member than the last one written invokes undefined behavior, but the effect in practice is usually to permit type punning. 20:45:54 fizzie, it does? 20:45:58 AnMaster: it does. 20:46:02 Well, there was the wikipedia quote. 20:46:04 how the heck can you then store a float in an int 20:46:07 gcc deliberately allows it to work in the situation when you write from one and read from the other without doing anything tricky 20:46:09 AnMaster: you can't. 20:46:15 -_- 20:46:20 AnMaster: read up about the strict aliasing rules some time 20:46:23 Deewiant: you can, memcpy() 20:46:25 implementation-defined, not portable and all that. 20:46:28 ais523, it works under other compilers too 20:46:34 ais523: eh? 20:46:39 ais523, ah good point 20:46:45 Deewiant: you can access both of them via unsigned char pointers 20:46:48 safely 20:46:57 that's actually well-defined? wow. 20:46:58 unsigned char is special with respect to the aliasing rules 20:47:05 it was special-cased in the standard 20:47:07 ah, that rings a bell, yes indeed 20:47:08 ais523, nice, so I just do: (float*)(unsigned char*)&myint? 20:47:27 presumably that should work 20:47:41 I think so, not sure though 20:47:51 float would have to be the same size as int for that to make sense 20:48:00 and the result's going to differ depending on padding, etc 20:48:11 ais523, yes it would be int32_t actually 20:48:34 ais523: I'm not certain the memcpy apporach is safe; surely you can read all the bits of a float with memcpy (or through a unsigned char *), but the bit pattern might be some sort of a trap representation when interpreted as int. You could store the _value_ of the bytes in the integer if it's large enough, of course. 20:48:38 ais523, so you mean you can't implement FPSP, FPDP and 3DSP in any portable way? 20:48:50 course you can, you can memcpy 20:49:08 and emulate 32-bit float yourself on targets which don't have it 20:49:18 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 20:49:22 fizzie: unsigned int isn't allowed to have trap representations 20:49:26 but apart from that you're right 20:49:27 ais523, well actually I would just error out on those 20:49:32 well, uint32_t isn't 20:49:35 I was adding size checks in cmakelists today 20:49:36 unsigned int is 20:49:51 ais523, "trap representations"? 20:49:55 ais523: Okay, I was in fact thinking there might be something special when one of the parties is an integer. 20:50:07 well, if it's signed, you can have problems 20:50:17 a trap representation's a number that causes a program to error if it's used 20:50:19 well it would be in FPSP and FPDP 20:50:24 since funge space is signed 20:50:31 same for 3DSP 20:50:46 0x80000000 is common as a trap representation on 32-bit systems, and is in fact the only value allowed for one in a 32-bit signed int by the standard 20:50:56 even more systems don't have a trap representation at all 20:51:00 though 20:51:00 ais523, anyway how comes no tools "warn portability" checks actually warn about using an union there? 20:51:15 AnMaster: because everyone does it anyway so no sane compiler manufacturer would break it 20:51:19 Still, with a large enough signed integer you could store the value of the float bytes in there. 20:51:21 ais523, ah good 20:51:27 so I'll just depend on it then :) 20:51:35 fizzie: or enough unsigned chars 20:51:55 Yes, but if you only have a single funge-cell to work with. 20:51:57 ais523, um what if I want to use something that happens to be 0x80000000 20:52:26 for example will those systems crash when the unix timestamp hit that value? 20:52:26 -!- moozilla has joined. 20:52:28 AnMaster: the range of int doesn't include that number 20:52:32 on such systems 20:52:34 that's signed int 20:52:41 ais523, so int isn't 32-bit? 20:52:43 so such systems break 1 second earlier than other systmes 20:53:02 AnMaster: yes it is, it's -2^31-1 to +2^31-1 with one trap representation 20:53:10 that's 2^32 possibilities total, so 32 bit 20:53:18 anyway we will all have 64-bit timestamps by then 20:53:29 And they might break harder; a trap representation might cause hard abort()s or something, instead of some sort of wrap-around. 20:53:32 will we? I doubt it. 20:53:35 ais523, so what about those systems that doesn't have a trap? 20:53:41 AnMaster: they roll over, normally 20:53:44 Deewiant, well linux already got it in kernel iirc 20:53:59 but incrementing a signed int past its maximum is undefined behaviour 20:54:06 I wonder what will happen to embedded systems 20:54:09 and in fact gcc takes advantage of this on occasion 20:54:16 Deewiant, good question 20:54:38 ais523, it does? 20:54:57 Deewiant, does Funge-98 say what should happen on funge cell overflow? 20:55:01 undefined I think? 20:55:10 not sure 20:55:27 Deewiant, does CCBI trap SIGPIPE? 20:55:29 I think it doesn't. 20:55:43 AnMaster: it's undefined in C for signed integers, wraparound for unsigned 20:55:43 the bit representation is probably also unspecced 20:55:54 this implies that unsigned can only have trap representations if it also has padding 20:55:54 AnMaster: no, CCBI does nothing with signals. 20:55:58 Deewiant, if it doesn't your SOCK could be non-conforming 20:56:09 Deewiant, since you would crash on a SIGPIPE iirc if not handled 20:56:13 AnMaster: do the SOCK specs say I have to trap SIGPIPE? 20:56:13 instead of reversing 20:56:20 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 20:56:21 Deewiant, they say you have to reverse on error iirc 20:56:24 http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/GE/GE.Basic.1965.102646121.pdf 20:56:31 Deewiant, and you get SIGPIPE on error 20:56:43 AnMaster: that's not an error, that's a signal. :-P 20:56:48 Deewiant, so just ignore SIGPIPE and use the PIPE return value 20:56:55 Deewiant, yes but it is caused by an error 20:56:56 AnMaster: but in all honesty most likely tango does something 20:57:04 ah I guess so 20:57:08 AnMaster: can you whip up a test program? 20:57:40 Deewiant, not really, it happens on network errors iirc 20:58:24 well I can just netcat something and Ctrl-C, or? 20:58:25 actually hm 20:58:50 I always heard it applies to sockets too, however http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIGPIPE seems to say it is pipes only 20:58:58 huh 20:58:58 Deewiant: netcat and ctrl-d probably 20:59:20 ais523, it is for sockets too right? 20:59:37 sigpipe verily applies to sockets as well 20:59:43 ah :) 20:59:46 AnMaster: not sure, I don't know all that much POSIX yet 20:59:58 ais523, you edit on wikipedia right? go fix http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIGPIPE :P 21:00:19 ah yes 21:00:19 AnMaster: anyone can edit Wikipedia 21:00:22 send() can return EPIPE 21:00:32 ais523, except I refuse for religious reasons :P 21:01:01 and your religion doesn't prevent you from inciting others to do so? 21:01:11 Yes, and send() will give you a SIGPIPE if the socket has been shutdown(foo, SHUT_WR)ed, for example. 21:01:11 -!- megatron has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:01:40 I guess it might happen because of some network error too; at least it doesn't seem to be forbidden. 21:01:56 Deewiant, indeed doing that is the command of the higher force 21:02:25 this higher force sounds like an idiot 21:02:31 fizzie, ah yes so if remote end does shutdown() on it? 21:02:39 Deewiant, hehe :D 21:11:42 "one of the changes from C90 to C99 was to remove any restriction on accessing one member of a union when the last store was to a different one" 21:11:42 hm 21:11:47 AnMaster: http://wwwold.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/WG14/www/docs/dr_257.htm 21:11:52 that's to do with type punning in unions 21:11:56 ais523, that was I was reading 21:11:59 and quoting above 21:12:05 basically someone suggested that it should work the way that you suggested 21:12:09 and the standards body said no 21:12:19 but then, they say no to just about every defect report raised 21:12:25 and it costs a lot of money to submit one to them 21:13:27 "one of the changes from C90 to C99 was to remove any restriction on accessing one member of a union when the last store was to a different one" 21:13:35 ais523, what about that then? 21:13:45 -!- LinuS has joined. 21:14:00 from that sentence I can't figure out which direction the change was in 21:20:09 ais523, hm http://wwwold.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/WG14/www/docs/dr_283.htm 21:20:55 AnMaster: well they didn't even answer... 21:21:22 http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n980.htm 21:21:25 there is that too 21:21:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:25:21 ais523, http://wwwold.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/WG14/www/docs/dr_236.htm 21:27:34 Even if C99 had relaxed the aliasing rules re type-punning with unions, I'm still pretty sure that a float interpreted as int might well be that one allowed trap representation of a signed integer. 21:28:24 fizzie, So FPSP and FPDP are basically broken? 21:28:47 fizzie, for me it is just int64_t btw 21:28:51 not int32_t 21:28:55 fizzie: AnMaster: luckily not with IEEE floats, 0x80000000 happens to be an invalid float 21:29:09 ais523, ah which I actually say in README is needed 21:29:29 * cfunge requires IEC 60559 floating-point arithmetic (please see Annex F in 21:29:29 ISO/IEC 9899 for more details.) 21:29:43 AnMaster: why does it require that sort of float arithmetic? 21:30:10 hmm... I'm not sure if 0x00000080 is an invalid float though, what if floats are big-endian and ints are little-endian? 21:30:29 ais523, because it is needed for FPDP and FPSP. You can't be sure it works otherwise 21:30:36 anyway I do double too 21:30:39 in FPDP 21:30:48 union over 2 32-bit ints 21:31:22 AnMaster: what if you're using 64-bit funge? 21:31:44 actually, that could break badly if you're compiling 32-bit on a 64-bit system 21:31:56 because the two ints could quite possibly have 32 bits of padding between them 21:32:19 ais523, hm 21:32:26 well that I know a way to fix 21:32:30 called pointers 21:32:44 in theory they could have 32 bits of padding between them anyway, but compilers tend not to do that without a reason 21:33:18 it should be possible to access an int32_t at an address evenly divisible by sizeof(int32_t) I assume? 21:33:53 it would be rather tricky to handle stuff if that wasn't true 21:34:04 I'm not convinced, probably, but that's asking about alignment and all sorts of weird stuff happens when you think about alignment 21:34:17 maybe someday I'll write a DS9K implementation that aligns all structs to prime numbers 21:34:23 ais523, anyway if you like, rewrite FPSP and FPDP to be strictly conforming then! 21:34:42 memcpy is your friend 21:34:44 if a little slow 21:34:50 ais523, a little slow yes... 21:35:05 ais523, anyway that wouldn't work for double 21:35:07 on int32_t 21:35:15 I can easily imagine a system where int32_t is implemented as a 64-bit quantity with padding; perhaps because the system does not do any <64-bit access and the implementor doesn't want to do any shifting around. 21:35:17 if what you say about padding ever happens 21:35:18 AnMaster: accessing a char is always aligned 21:35:33 so you just memcpy 4 chars at a time 21:35:53 presumably you're assuming 8-bit char, some systems have 9-bit char but I seriously doubt cfunge would run on those the way you're doing things 21:36:15 ais523, well I need to handle FPSP and FPDP 21:36:25 and I need to conform to other parts of the befunge specs 21:36:32 With that int64_t, you could also store the 32-bit float bit-pattern as the value of an integer with something like: float f; int64_t i; ... unsigned char *p = (unsigned char *)&f; i = p[0] | (p[1] << 8) | (p[2] << 16) | (p[3] << 24); 21:36:33 so... 21:36:57 fizzie: yes, that's the sort of thing that can be done correctly 21:37:03 hm 21:37:14 fizzie, USE64 vs. USE32 is decided at compile time 21:37:17 if -fweb and -O3 are on then gcc might not even slow down as a result 21:37:18 for the size of funge cells 21:37:19 Of course that assumes CHAR_BIT == 8, sizeof(float) == 4 and sizeof(int64_t) == large enough. 21:37:25 so that makes everything more complex 21:37:30 and -fweb is implied by -funroll-loops 21:37:51 fizzie: sizeof(int64_t) == 64/CHAR_BIT 21:37:52 always 21:37:56 that's how int64_t is defined 21:38:18 -fweb... oh god 21:38:27 what exactly does -fweb do? 21:38:41 AnMaster: allows the compiler to change which register it's holding a register variable in midfunction 21:39:02 ais523, well I don't declare any variable with register... 21:39:03 it makes it near-impossible to explain to a debugger what's going on, but if you ask for funroll-loops it assumes you don't care much about that anyway 21:39:13 AnMaster: -O3 auto-registers variables when it helps 21:39:20 I think -O2 does too, for that matter 21:39:24 BaKKK 21:39:42 ais523, ggdb4 obviously needs to be invented ;) 21:39:59 ais523: google chrome is out 21:40:01 only for windosw 21:40:02 atm 21:40:05 http://www.google.com/chrome 21:40:09 tusho: does it run in Wine, I wonder? 21:40:13 maybe 21:40:20 their own browser? 21:40:32 can you use Windows Live search in it? XD 21:40:34 * tusho parallelz it up 21:41:23 I guess you should be able to "portably" store a 32-bit IEEE float in a "long", since the value range of long is [-(2^31-1), 2^31-1] and that's enough distinct values to hold all the IEEE floats, which have at least that one illegal value. 21:42:06 well unless anyone complains I won't change current one, unless you can come up with one universal and sane solution :P 21:42:23 I hardly expect anyone to use cfunge on non-x86/x86_64 21:42:35 tusho: I'm not downloading it anyway because I don't like their EULA 21:42:43 and if someone actually hits an issue with it in a non-contrived case then I shall fix it 21:42:48 which is actually potentially enforceable because you have to agree to it pre-download 21:42:49 Given how common the "union of float and int" (or even "union of int and pointer") approaches are, the current way probably works just about anywhere. 21:42:52 however until that happens... 21:43:01 at least it gets around many of the common problems with enforcing EULAs 21:43:09 Don't you want your cfunge to work on a DS9K? :p 21:43:21 fizzie, well tell me what DS9K is 21:43:25 then I may answer 21:43:26 AnMaster: would you consider an automated C to brainfuck translater to be a contrived case 21:43:34 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=DS9K, I wrote that article 21:43:38 ais523, does it do such aligning issues? 21:43:48 have* 21:44:02 fizzie, oh that, and then: yes 21:44:03 AnMaster: no alignment issues on gcc-bf, it aligns to 8 bits 21:44:09 -!- tusho has quit ("And then-"). 21:44:16 the DS9K has all alignment issues possible, except when you want it to 21:44:25 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:44:26 ais523, well I checked it on 32-bit and 64-bit x86 21:44:29 GCC and ICC 21:44:31 -!- tusho has joined. 21:44:39 once clang is ready I plan to make sure it works there too 21:44:44 ais523: 21:44:46 1. it's open source, just remove the eula 21:44:47 currently I can't get clang to build even so ;P 21:44:48 then recompile 21:44:57 ais523: 2. is it the stuff about sending your browser history to google 21:45:00 because that has a setting to turn it off 21:45:09 and yeah, that being default is the most braindeaded thing ever 21:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i just meant, when you start going oracle, you might wanna rethink what it means for something to be "O(n)". 21:45:53 AnMaster: Was cfunge-0.3.0 recent enough to run fungot? 21:45:53 tusho: it's the stuff about if you use any of their services they can change their Ts&Cs without telling you and if you use their services again you're bound by the new Ts&Cs 21:45:53 fizzie: and more plus shipping ( honest). other scheme implementations but guile is my favorite. i.e. you never have to 21:46:03 ais523: dude. everything has that 21:46:07 fizzie, hm... let me check 21:46:08 seriously: everything 21:46:25 tusho: well nowadays I don't agree to EULAs that require that, that's like zombifying yourself in Agora 21:46:39 ais523: every EULA has done that since I can remember. 21:46:40 I don't think I have bzr here. :/ 21:46:42 how am I meant to check the Ts&Cs for scams when they can change while I'm looking 21:46:42 fizzie, no 21:46:46 you can't avoid it. 21:46:50 fizzie, only later ones got SOCK it seems 21:47:01 tusho: you can, most computer games come with a fixed EULA for instance 21:47:05 that doesn't change behind your back 21:47:07 ais523: ok, games 21:47:10 apart from that/ 21:47:14 all online services have it 21:47:15 and most software. 21:47:31 fizzie, so next release (a few weeks I guess, but I never make promises about that) will have it 21:47:38 tusho: well I don't agree to online services with those sorts of rules nowadays, and most software I use doesn't have EULAs at all 21:47:43 fizzie, the current development version is stable enough to run it though 21:47:47 ais523: enjoy your 1999 21:47:48 just 28 different trivial modifications to BSD 21:47:51 fizzie, actually core is pretty much stable 21:48:03 tusho: I'm not on the Internet that much, so why should I rely on online services? 21:48:04 tusho, ais523: about the aliasing issue 21:48:09 berkely sockets 21:48:16 most of the time I spend on the Internet is on IRC and email... 21:48:16 you need to cast there 21:48:30 damn chrome is fast 21:48:33 even in parallels 21:48:34 AnMaster: there's an exception in C99 just so berkeley sockets work, amazingly 21:48:36 INFORMATION SUPER HIGHWAY 21:48:42 ais523, there is? 21:49:05 AnMaster: you can union structs as long as they start with the same members and you only access those members, and the union's visible from the declaration of both structs 21:49:08 tusho, any browser is fast here... 21:49:12 which is a really weird rule when you think about it 21:49:17 AnMaster: but this is superspeed. :) 21:49:29 tusho, would anyone notice? 21:49:33 yes 21:49:40 rendering times have a long way to go 21:49:47 tusho, it is still restricted by network speed for me 21:49:51 8 mbit down 21:50:00 AnMaster: no, you're bound by rendering speed 21:50:02 almost certainly 21:50:05 tusho: I wonder how much they modified WebKit? 21:50:11 ais523: i don't think much 21:50:19 tusho, they based it on webkit? 21:50:22 AnMaster: yes 21:50:24 is it just unmodified Safari or Konqueror stuff, or is it Special Google Nonevil Webkit 21:50:25 it's open source, too 21:50:26 well long live konqueror then 21:50:29 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:50:38 ais523, nonevil? is webkit evil? 21:50:44 AnMaster: konqueror is pretty much terrible. 21:50:58 AnMaster: when Google make a version of something, their version is by definition less evil than the original 21:51:00 tusho, agreed, but not the rendering really, it is a bad browser in other aspects 21:51:15 if Google sold fluffy kittens then your fluffy kittens would be evil by comparison to theirs 21:51:20 ais523: have you slept yet. 21:51:24 tusho: no 21:51:25 ais523, google is evil :P 21:51:33 probably 21:51:39 AnMaster: I may have been sarcastic over my past few comments 21:51:39 google are as evil as any corp except they're cooler so. 21:51:51 tusho, does it support gopher ;) 21:51:59 gimme a gopher link, i'll test. 21:52:08 a sec 21:52:13 tusho: try it on anagolf with the back buttons, that has some weird breakage on Konq 21:52:21 tusho, gopher://inspircd.dyndns.org/ 21:52:28 AnMaster: nope, treats it as a "needs external program" 21:52:35 aww 21:52:41 useless then 21:52:47 long live lynx! 21:52:48 ;) 21:52:59 ais523: works fine 21:53:06 ah, they must have fixed that bug then 21:53:17 Konq is really confusing, all the labels end up on the wrong buttons 21:53:23 or inside text boxees 21:53:24 * tusho sees how fast gmail is 21:53:27 Just for the heck of it, tried to build cfunge development version on this 32-bit ppc OS X thing. Dies when building SOCK; INADDR_NONE not defined. 21:53:47 INADDR_NONE's just a constant 0, isn't it? 21:53:49 this shit owns, even in parallels 21:53:51 and parallels is a dog 21:54:33 ok, google, now you have to release an os x version 21:54:35 immediately. 21:54:36 tusho, chrome doesn't have a search box? 21:54:40 huh 21:54:43 AnMaster: it's the URL bar 21:54:45 AnMaster: the address bar is an everything bar 21:54:51 it's like the awesomebar, except even more awesome. 21:54:54 well maybe I don't want to end up on google every time 21:55:02 AnMaster: you can configure the search engine 21:55:02 maybe I want another search engine 21:55:08 believe it or not 21:55:08 tusho: I'd argue less awesome, in that the awesomebar adjusts itself to websites you visit 21:55:15 ais523: as does this 21:55:19 tusho, actually I prefer firefox 1.5 theme 21:55:22 I prefer that look 21:55:26 I guess few agree 21:55:30 but to me it is great 21:55:47 well, I'm one of the 3 people in the world who actually likes Ubuntu's default colour scheme 21:55:53 ais523: i'm another 21:55:56 ais523: Usually I think it's ((in_addr_t)-1). It's the "error value" from inet_addr, but it's a bit problematic since it's also a valid address. 21:55:58 "By keeping each tab in an isolated "sandbox", we were able to prevent one tab from crashing another" 21:55:59 um 21:56:02 http://www.google.com/chrome/intl/en/why.html?hl=en 21:56:03 wtf 21:56:09 what is wtf about that 21:56:09 any browser should do that 21:56:11 it's perfectly reasonable 21:56:16 AnMaster: they don't 21:56:19 only chrome and IE8 21:56:24 really? 21:56:29 yep 21:56:43 AnMaster: it takes the tab=sandbox idea even further 21:56:47 all JS alerts, etc are contained within it 21:56:51 they're not separate OS processes though? 21:56:53 I expect ff people are working on it 21:57:00 you can't lock up the browser with [[while (true) { alert("lol") }]] 21:57:03 for JS alerts, I think they are 21:57:10 or there's an open bug for that anyway 21:57:40 Heh: "/usr/bin/ld: unknown flag: -O1" 21:57:43 one annoying thing about that site is it seems to do OS detection 21:57:50 so I had to fake my useragent to get the Windows download 21:57:58 ais523: well, i can understand why they did that 21:57:59 does it have support for addons? 21:58:02 like firefox does 21:58:03 otherwise it just links to the Linux deveopment plac 21:58:05 AnMaster: i don't think so not yet 21:58:06 s/$/e/ 21:58:08 but it's open source 21:58:10 = only a matter of time 21:58:12 so you can create googlecustomise for it 21:58:13 wlel 21:58:14 well 21:58:15 and this isn't really a 1.0 release anyway 21:58:28 removing click tracking and ads from google using their browser would rock 21:58:28 ais523: i just used firefox in parallels 21:58:29 :P 21:58:29 :D 21:58:53 tusho: now compare it to the blazingly fast speed of C-INTERCAL's INTERCAL-to-C conversion 21:59:01 ais523: does that render HTML yet? 21:59:03 if not MAKE IT SO 21:59:09 which is so much faster than the gcc step that runs after it there's no point optimising 21:59:09 c2html 21:59:13 pretty sure that exists 21:59:19 or something like it 21:59:20 AnMaster: nothing to do with this 22:00:07 -!- fungOSX has joined. 22:00:19 wow 22:00:20 There's fungot running with cfunge on ppc-32/OS X. 22:00:21 fizzie: it's a nice way to remember that? tell me a good number, though? is it php? peice of cake 22:00:25 best bug ever 22:00:30 i closed a rickroll tab 22:00:31 hi fungOSX 22:00:34 and the music CONTINUED PLAYING 22:00:35 XD 22:00:37 hmm... hi fungot 22:00:38 ais523: did you read my article in the kb has character fragments on it which the computer executes. it's intended to implement a ports driver? my current one, looping back to where/ how to start doesn't seem that bad 22:00:40 fuck! 22:00:41 I don't have the language model files there, so no talking. :p 22:00:43 make it stop! 22:00:47 -!- oklopol has joined. 22:00:54 tusho: permanent rickrolls? 22:01:01 ais523: bet they did it intentionally 22:01:01 is that a new browser feature? 22:01:22 tusho: does it happen for anything but rickrolls? 22:01:24 ^echo optbot 22:01:24 optbot optbot 22:01:25 "The following page(s) have become unresponsive. You can wait for them to become responsive or kill them. 22:01:25 Deewiant: HP 48gII. 22:01:25 [gmail]" 22:01:25 fungot: What's so fucked about it? 22:01:26 optbot: i meant the bored thing :) like forcer and riastradh, and lecture him. i didn't download any software. that's just the highscores :p) with the bad decisions. 22:01:27 fungot: 2(d-1) 22:01:27 optbot: that's rather strange. looks fine to me 22:01:28 How ironic! 22:01:28 fungot: well we have nothing to worry about 22:01:29 optbot: or, as liquidengineer might say, i'm a tcler when being serious. and a bad thing... i learn very much from your solution... thanks :) 22:01:29 fungot: ~exec sys.stdout( [i[1] for i in inspect.getmembers(self.f) if i[0] == "func_code"][0] ) 22:01:30 optbot: i'll try to explain with a srfi? the editors were constrained to quite a few!!! fnord! fnord 22:01:31 fungot: it can't curry a lambda yet 22:01:33 OH MAN 22:01:34 HAHAHA 22:01:38 you know the sad macs? 22:01:42 we get a sad tab. 22:01:50 yes, that was in the cartoon 22:01:51 right down to the pixelly black-and-white 22:01:55 Deewiant: yes 22:01:56 but in person... 22:02:10 the cartoon also said "it really does look like that" OWTTE 22:02:16 tusho: oh dear, I'm starting to like Chrome less and less as time goes on 22:02:22 -!- fungOSX has quit (Client Quit). 22:02:26 ais523: not a fan of the sad mac? 22:02:35 tusho: in a browser? 22:02:43 ais523: it's after a tab has been killed due to crashes 22:02:47 it's just a tab with a sad face 22:02:52 it just happens to be pixelly and black and white 22:02:56 and say "Aw, snap!" 22:02:56 :) 22:03:08 also a lot of this crap is due to me running it under parallels 22:03:11 which is less than perfect. 22:04:16 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 22:06:23 oh man 22:06:26 resizable input widgets 22:06:28 thank GOD 22:06:39 nevermore will i have to deal with shitty tiny text areas 22:07:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:09:27 -!- chromeeeee has joined. 22:09:35 fuck that was fast. 22:09:36 :~ 22:09:37 test 22:09:52 i am typing to you from mibbit running in google chrome running in parallels running in os x 22:09:55 :3 22:10:05 -!- LinuS has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:10:13 hi chromeeeee, presumably you're tusho? 22:10:13 byebye linus 22:10:16 ais523: no 22:10:32 my name is Ritanj 22:10:33 well, same IP, anyway 22:10:39 Ritanj Urban Muller 22:10:43 Ritanj Urban Muller Lite 22:10:58 To be specific, Ritanj Urban Cherry-On-Top Muller Advertising Campaign Lite-Lite 22:11:17 yep, definitely tusho 22:11:21 -!- LinuS has joined. 22:11:23 what. 22:11:25 who is tusho. 22:11:42 chromeeeee: the other person in this channel from the same IP who talks the same way as you 22:11:47 ais523: ah, him 22:11:48 ignore him 22:11:50 he's stupid 22:12:35 yeah he should be banned 22:12:54 lament has already banned him many times because of his outrageous behavior 22:13:09 but his brother is an fbi agent, so there's not much we can do 22:13:45 what with all the drugs and prostitution going on @ the esolang wiki 22:14:01 i am a prostitute and a drug 22:14:02 night 22:14:15 There's fungot running with cfunge on ppc-32/OS X. 22:14:16 cool 22:14:16 AnMaster: ask again?) :) smileys fall from the blue sky, sadly.)) the .x. .y. stuff is code that loops over each ip.... 22:14:19 so it compiled? 22:14:28 :) smileys fall from the blue sky, sadly. 22:14:28 ais523: so what's the optimal compression thingy for bf-sc? :) imagine if the state paid for the fnord health, therefore you might now want him to beg?! 22:14:29 fungot: you are not a prostitute or a drug 22:14:30 chromeeeee: hah perl again 22:14:33 that's poetry 22:14:46 -!- ais523 has changed nick to fungotty. 22:14:50 fungot: hi 22:14:51 fungotty: using esc all the time while awake.' wikipedia 22:14:58 optbot: hi 22:14:59 fungotty: yeah 22:15:00 wow 22:15:01 optbot: one of the copies in http://www.bloodandcoffee.net/ campbell/ proposals/ optional.text. but before css, the scheme model of efficient and concise elegance wins me over the nose every time i see it 22:15:01 fungot: what other things? 22:15:02 optbot: waiting at 4am for code to be portable i assume? and the tools fro eopl on a regular basis is firefox. 22:15:02 fungot: :P 22:15:03 fizzie, did you need to do anything special to make it compile and work? 22:15:03 optbot: ah. of course, impossible in any lower scheme) but it looks like it's fairly simple :p 22:15:03 this is amazing micropoetry 22:15:04 fungot: G! {M[m(_f)(Fib)!<20>(_f)(fib).?]} 22:15:04 optbot: also tell me if this isn't required to actually mutate the original list? ( cadr expr) is sufficient." 22:15:06 fungot: ok 22:15:20 -!- fungotty has changed nick to ais523. 22:15:38 ":) smileys fall from the blue sky, sadly." "using esc all the time while awake.' wikipedia" 22:15:43 two great peieces of art from fungot 22:15:43 chromeeeee: now youve failed 365 times. 22:15:48 three pieces. 22:16:04 fizzie, can you run mycology under cfunge on PPC? 22:16:07 I like fungot's last comment, I thought it was from a human for a moment 22:16:08 ais523: is there an irp interpreter in the mini-funge..." you said did it... :) 22:16:10 fizzie, I'd love to see the results 22:16:19 hmm 22:16:22 mibbit died 22:16:43 tusho: chromeeeee's still responding to pings 22:16:52 butts 22:16:53 ah 22:16:54 now it works 22:17:43 fizzie, well I need to sleep, hope you will tell me tomorrow 22:17:44 night 22:17:56 fungot: forth line of poetry? 22:17:57 chromeeeee: i must depart now. i'll fix it.)) the golden ratio" achieved by the shortest known 99 bottles of beeron the wall! 97 bottles of beer 22:18:10 the longest line yet, and the best 22:18:14 the whole thing is poetry don't you think ais523? 22:18:28 what are all these "'s and ))'s 22:18:28 99 bottles of beeron the wall! 97 bottles of beer 22:18:33 we should have fungot in #irp 22:18:34 it's lamenting on how fast things end (i must depart now) 22:18:34 ais523: not exactly scheme, but i didn't had his code and he hadn't died. he was supposed to combine these so that the left and right chunks, would not treat ( foo fnord fnord) are best at fnord fast code by way of combinatory logic, as opposed to 22:18:39 and yet how they can continue within ourselves 22:18:40 oklopol: fungot isn't very good at punctuation yet 22:18:41 ais523: please tell me :) but i guess i left it around here somewhere. i've only skimmed the paper. the web server has been rebooted though the program doesn't 22:18:41 (i'll fix it.) 22:18:45 and then it has a seperator, )) 22:18:48 as if a buffer 22:18:52 and we're hit by the next piece of text 22:18:57 the golden ratio" 22:18:58 cut off 22:19:00 what could be there? 22:19:03 the point is: we can't know. 22:19:06 things are fleeting. 22:19:12 "achieved by the shortest known 99 bottles of beeron the wall! 97 bottles of beer" 22:19:21 our obsession with achivements, and our illogicalness: 99 to 97? 22:19:24 it goes 99, 98, 97 22:19:27 someone quotedb this whole conversation for about two screensworth, please 22:19:27 but that is mathematics 22:19:35 humans are not based on mathematics. 22:19:36 -!- chromeeeee has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 22:19:40 we are illogical, and fungot help us realise this. 22:19:41 tusho: well nm then but thx for help :) the number tower is one thing which you might want to sync all possible disks and so on. the scheme system has the best design; however, i'm doing it 22:19:57 "well nm then but thx for help :)" the humbleness, denying its own meaning, somehow enrichens the meaning 22:20:06 ironically using net speak 22:21:00 ais523, you do it! 22:21:10 such overwhelming irony 22:21:12 night really! 22:21:15 AnMaster: I have no idea how quotedbs work 22:21:17 and night 22:21:21 ais523: you select text 22:21:24 then you put it in the box 22:21:25 and hit submit 22:21:28 and watch it get rejected. 22:22:03 well let's use ESO's quotedb, then 22:22:10 that way you can choose not to reject it 22:22:10 yes, that bastion of existance 22:22:25 exemplifying the best virtues of existance, apart from existence 22:23:12 Define an existing unicorn to be a unicorn that exists. By definition, an existing unicorn exists. As some kind of unicorn exists, therefore, at least one unicorn exists. 22:23:24 And it's pink and invisible. 22:23:38 (Praise be.) 22:24:08 well in NetHack unicorns can be invisible and still black/grey/white 22:24:51 night AnMaster 22:27:44 ais523: where's the logical fallacy in that? 22:29:27 AnMaster: Here's everything I did to make it compile: http://zem.fi/~fis/cfunge.diff.txt -- this is gcc-4.0.1 so therefore the -Wfoo flag commenting; linker here is not GNU ld but "Apple Computer, Inc. version cctools-622.5.obj~13" so the linker flags had to go; and the SOCK getaddrinfo usage would make that last change unnecessary. 22:30:06 ((in_addr_t)-1) is a wonderful example of C's ambiguity 22:30:13 is that a cast or a subtraction 22:30:32 tusho: depends on the namespace of in_addr_t 22:30:38 ais523: well i know the answer myself, so no need to answer, since you most likely know more about logic than me :P 22:30:38 fizzie, yes FIXME comment is there 22:30:40 ais523: of course 22:30:42 but even so 22:30:51 fizzie, as for linker flags please provide a patch that detects linker 22:30:55 I can fix to detect compiler 22:30:59 but not linker 22:31:09 if you can do that: great! 22:31:11 AnMaster: autotools? 22:31:18 better even: check if flag is supported 22:31:21 by trying to link 22:31:22 AnMaster: And mycology results: http://zem.fi/~fis/mycology.txt 22:31:26 http://code.google.com/chromium/ google chrome source 22:31:33 fizzie, ah no bad 22:32:17 btw iirc INADDR_NONE is POSIX? 22:32:47 I don't have my copy of POSIX here on this laptop right now. 22:33:04 fizzie: what OS is it running? Windows? 22:33:10 ais523: os x. 22:33:29 fizzie, what version of OS X btw? 22:33:39 OSX is POSIX, isn't it 22:33:45 ais523: and certified unix 22:33:53 AnMaster: It might need some other header, then. 22:34:04 AnMaster: INADDR_NONE is mentioned in the inet_addr man page of this thing. 22:34:12 well, Windows didn't fail the UNIX certification tests when it was tested, it's not entirely obvious that it passed either 22:34:22 ais523: How on earth did that work? 22:34:25 I mean ... fork. 22:34:39 #include 22:34:39 #include 22:34:39 #include 22:34:44 tusho: apparently certain things are allowed to be unimplemented 22:34:49 fizzie, those are mentioned in my inet_addr man page 22:34:53 ais523: But fork is a basic pillar of UNIX! 22:35:02 AnMaster: Same here plus . 22:35:02 fizzie, I include all three 22:35:19 fizzie, check if it is in sys/types.h please 22:35:30 tusho: well Windows has CreateProcess, doesn't it? 22:35:33 fizzie, anway I include sys/types.h already too 22:35:36 for other reasons 22:35:36 ais523: nowhere near the same thing! 22:35:36 that can be used to implement fork eventually 22:35:37 so.. 22:35:54 and they'd only have needed an implementation that produced the right answers on the testsuite 22:36:14 It's in , actually; I wonder why it didn't see it. 22:36:50 #include 22:36:50 -!- ais523 has quit ("going home"). 22:36:53 fizzie, that is included 22:36:55 Here is the First Poem of Fungot: 22:36:57 [[:) smileys fall from the blue sky, sadly. 22:36:57 using esc all the time while awake.' wikipedia 22:36:57 now youve failed 365 times. 22:36:57 i must depart now. i'll fix it.)) the golden ratio" achieved by the shortest known 99 bottles of beeron the wall! 97 bottles of beer 22:36:58 well nm then but thx for help :)]] 22:37:02 fizzie, so that makes no sense 22:37:29 AnMaster: Ah, it's in but inside a #ifndef _POSIX_C_SOURCE .. #endif block. 22:37:48 ADD_DEFINITIONS(-D_POSIX_C_SOURCE=200112L -D_XOPEN_SOURCE=600 -D_XOPEN_SOURCE_EXTENDED) 22:37:59 fizzie, unless you messed with that too? 22:38:05 I don't think I did. 22:38:10 fizzie, then why the heck? 22:38:17 and wtf 22:38:22 "#ifndef _POSIX_C_SOURCE"? 22:38:26 you mean "#ifdef"? 22:39:07 No; #ifndef. 22:39:18 fizzie, ok that is strange 22:39:35 fizzie, anyway since I plan to replace that :) 22:39:53 fizzie, oh and you need to come up with a way to find what linker flags are ok 22:40:01 I guess they don't think it's POSIX, and therefore want to avoid introducing that identifier if the program requests POSIX compliance. Can't check the standard right now, though. 22:40:02 I can do it for compiler flags 22:40:03 sure 22:40:14 there is a command for that in cmake 22:40:15 No, I need to sleep. I'll consider that tomorrow. -> 22:40:22 fizzie: 22:40:23 why 22:40:24 do you fins 22:40:24 fizzie, thanks 22:40:25 :) 22:40:26 all use that -> 22:40:28 nobody else does 22:40:42 tusho, interesting observation 22:40:48 tusho: It's a cultural thing. Being a heathen foreigner, you wouldn't understand. 22:40:50 night too 22:40:50 AnMaster: i've observed it before 22:40:53 with oklopol and Deewiant 22:40:54 but now fizzie too! 22:40:58 also, they all use iki.fi 22:41:07 and they all act in just about the same way 22:41:24 tusho, they are the same person 22:41:28 using different nicks 22:41:28 It's because we're all clones. Uh, I mean, nothing. 22:41:33 No, really, sleepery. 22:41:33 AnMaster: no, there are 2 people in finland 22:41:40 i guess they're just really similar. 22:41:45 5 of them are in this channel 22:42:04 tusho, how many are there in UK and Sweden in your opinion? 22:42:14 none 22:42:17 UK is finland 22:42:20 sweden is the UK 22:42:39 tusho, ah that is just a fake 22:42:43 AnMaster: no 22:42:47 you'll understand one day 22:42:49 tusho, the real Sweden is hidden 22:42:53 oh 22:42:57 like the swedish language is a hoax? 22:43:05 tricksy buggers, you swedes 22:43:06 tusho, ah no it actually isn't 22:43:08 let's ban them all 22:43:09 AnMaster: yes it is 22:43:12 you talk telepathically 22:43:20 tusho, not really, we make everyone think it is a hoak 22:43:22 hoax* 22:43:26 wow 22:43:26 so no one tries to learn it 22:43:41 what about hoaxologists 22:43:44 thus we can talk shit about other ppl on IRC 22:43:48 without those understanding 22:43:48 :D 22:43:59 tusho, what are hoaxologists? 22:44:00 noble cause 22:44:06 AnMaster: people who olog hoaxes 22:44:19 tusho, hm I'm not familiar with that 22:44:28 so afraid I can't really answer 22:44:31 AnMaster: they're secret 22:44:34 they're hoaxes, too 22:44:37 tusho, interesting 22:44:58 for example: ais523 is a hoax 22:45:02 tusho, you? 22:45:04 but not a hoax if a hoax hoaxes a olog 22:45:09 AnMaster: i am an olog 22:45:24 well I got to say I can't follow you 22:45:30 you confused me :P 22:45:43 anyway 22:45:47 it shouldn't be a olog 22:45:53 it would be an olog 22:45:57 tusho, ;P 22:46:09 AnMaster: swedes olog hoaxes if they olog hoaxes telepathically with the 5 of the 2 people of sweden in a box that carries the car over there. 22:46:29 tusho, um we hidden the rest 22:46:36 there is a total of five billion 22:46:37 really 22:46:42 just we hide that too 22:46:45 AnMaster: no, no, no, they're like finland 22:46:49 except their finland is not a UK 22:46:50 hoax 22:46:52 ologising 22:46:53 tusho, no that is *another* hoax 22:47:06 AnMaster: no, you're a hoax 22:47:08 this conversation is a hoax 22:47:11 it doesn't really exist. 22:47:13 tusho, we really pulled the best 1 April joke on the world 22:47:13 you must olog it. 22:47:18 except we never told anyone 22:47:21 so they still believe it 22:47:21 ! 22:47:22 :D 22:47:39 tusho, not sure I can olog it... 22:47:40 AnMaster: ah, but the hoax is not believed by the hoaxologists, who olog hoaxes so that finland is ended 22:47:42 I can log it though 22:47:45 just not the o bit 22:47:46 simple, really 22:48:03 oh? 22:48:06 O(log n)? 22:48:09 maybe 22:48:14 no, that has an n 22:48:15 O(log) 22:48:17 the very FUNCTION log 22:48:20 it's first-class 22:48:21 ooh 22:48:24 tusho, hm 22:48:25 and a lambda hoax, passed around by finns 22:48:26 via UK post 22:48:31 in their hoax domes 22:48:37 where they invent poems and irc bots and -> 22:48:59 ok as they said in some Monty Python (dead parrot iirc): This sketch is getting too silly 22:49:06 and really I need to sleep 22:49:24 ^<->v 22:55:44 but...hoax domes 22:56:55 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 23:18:07 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:18:11 Ok. Ok. 23:18:12 Swedes. 23:18:13 Finns. 23:18:14 UKs. 23:18:17 Hoax domes? 23:18:26 Not IRC bots, unsurely. ->? 23:33:38 Who the heck taught me how a rocket works? 23:33:58 Quit parodying my surelies. :-P 23:36:45 -!- minirop has left (?). 2008-09-03: 00:03:58 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:47:38 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 01:32:16 -!- tusho has quit. 02:52:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:37:31 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 03:39:09 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Client Quit). 03:40:51 -!- dogface has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you obfuscated, failed or... are weird?. 04:17:25 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 05:31:18 -!- megatron has joined. 05:31:22 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 05:44:26 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 06:02:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:07:12 i sense the time of go. 06:07:13 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 06:49:05 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 06:49:15 :O 06:59:37 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 07:10:42 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:24:08 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:04 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 08:08:52 -!- olsner has joined. 08:16:00 -!- Mony has joined. 08:16:28 hi 09:12:01 -!- oklopol has joined. 09:27:52 -!- oklofok has joined. 09:27:54 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 09:45:15 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hopefully it isn't with oerjan again, or there'll be a longer wait before you get it back this time because you'll have to wait for them to be online. 10:03:16 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 10:44:44 -!- megatron has changed nick to moozilla. 10:51:51 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Connection timed out). 11:19:33 -!- dogface has joined. 11:26:36 -!- Sgeo has joined. 11:42:14 -!- jix has joined. 11:43:19 -!- dogface has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:51:45 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 12:04:48 -!- tusho has joined. 12:25:27 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:25:40 -!- moozilla has joined. 12:26:40 -!- kar8nga has joined. 12:26:57 optbot... 12:26:58 Mony: and I'm not writing a C library to give continuations to INTERCAL 12:27:29 optbot: Why not? 12:27:29 fizzie: i have to sleep now canÄz zype anymore--- 12:27:39 Sounds like a lame cop-out to me! 12:27:56 fizzie: brilliant 12:36:07 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire..."). 12:47:25 :) smileys fall from the blue sky, sadly. 12:47:26 using esc all the time while awake.' wikipedia 12:47:26 now youve failed 365 times. 12:47:26 i must depart now. i'll fix it.)) the golden ratio" achieved by the shortest known 99 bottles of beeron the wall! 97 bottles of beer 12:47:26 well nm then but thx for help :) 12:50:28 I don't know of "shortest known 99 bottles of beeron the wall" but I don know the "shortest known 99 bottles of beer on the wall" 12:50:37 9 12:50:42 in HQ9+ 12:50:43 ;P 12:58:20 "Beeron" could be some sort of artificial beer-like substitute. 12:58:35 AnMaster: that's a fungot poem 12:58:36 tusho: " code with courage". we're talking about music. referring to itself in the multiple processes it pretends to use in a limited enviroment exported by the module system 12:58:38 he recited it yesterday 12:58:44 and performances of it shall be regular 12:58:46 wow 12:58:50 those first two sentences? 12:58:52 start of another poem 12:59:01 AnMaster: read yesterday's logs, I deciphered the poem 13:00:28 "Beeron" hmmm 13:00:35 fungot: but the music is how? 13:00:36 tusho: to " print" statement should always print to whatever the program's running from??? or fnord? 13:00:45 fungot: I think fnord. So, next ilne? 13:00:46 tusho: not just any kind of biochemistry... but let's not talk about the subject to begin with, it might be faster to use that and also native compilation or at least 13:01:08 fungot, how are native compilation and biochemistry? 13:01:08 fungot: inspiring. line 3? 13:01:09 AnMaster: let's wreak havoc 13:01:09 tusho: looking for ' store' microexps, and setting emacs to backup files in a directory that i mentioned is perfect, thanks 13:01:23 fungot: Wreak havoc? Alright. 13:01:24 tusho: he cooked everything himself and was a pardon issued? 13:01:25 are they related* 13:01:45 fungot: Was it? I don't know. 13:01:46 tusho: you asked how to first do a naive translation, but i 13:01:55 fungot: but you 13:01:56 tusho: no, the mob provides an uzi shield :) there are many of almost equal parts. 0 is 9" 13:02:01 uzi? 13:02:12 AnMaster: gun 13:02:14 that is one that sounds like a fnord to me 13:02:15 ah ok 13:02:22 I'm no expert on such stuff 13:02:31 nor am I, but Worms has a weapon called uzi ;) 13:02:36 fungot, are you saying 0 == 9? 13:02:37 AnMaster: the original name was " furor".): the pain of writing your own cocoa bindings ( which is 0) and ( 13:02:40 fungot: And your last words? 13:02:41 tusho: i've found it. thanks.)) the .x. .y. stuff is hard what's wrong with it? not really 13:02:44 AnMaster: no, 0 is 9" 13:02:46 9 inches 13:02:54 0 is 9 inches? 13:02:56 huh 13:03:03 fungot: so what's 1 13:03:04 tusho: rather, above fnord) nonsense?! what the fuck you are doing? /leave scheme /join java? is there such a thing 13:03:07 so fungot you mean 0 == 9 inches 13:03:08 AnMaster: fnord vm is fnord can only be a few exceptions. so.....you like atlanta? 13:03:25 fnord vm is fnord heh sounds like a meme 13:03:27 that was a beautiful poem 13:03:34 and yes 13:03:37 fungot is up to date on the memes 13:03:38 tusho: that small text would seriously look at plt-scheme servlets? without introducing a *different* lambda.) ack! 13:04:44 tusho, do you think PHP is an ugly language? 13:04:47 AnMaster: yes 13:04:57 oh then we agree 13:05:00 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1192465 First collection of the poemular work of fungot. 13:05:01 tusho: the latter would show the problem better, rather than interrupt-mask/ all... 13:05:29 tusho, anyway are any other languages uglier than PHP? 13:05:34 AnMaster: yes 13:05:36 I can't think of any 13:05:38 many 13:05:39 oh what ones? 13:05:43 AnMaster: cobol 13:05:45 fortran 13:05:52 obfuscated perl 13:06:01 ah well, I don't know cobol and what I seen of fortran doesn't look that bad 13:06:09 well obfuscated C is ugly too 13:06:11 well, it's certainly easier to read php code than fortran 13:06:13 although I see obfuscated perl as art 13:06:14 but that is part of the point 13:06:17 so I actually see it as pretty 13:06:20 so yes art 13:06:22 I agree 13:06:23 but it's ugly in a code way 13:06:29 certainly 13:06:35 php is less artistically pleasing than fortran, but is way uglier as far as code goes 13:06:40 err 13:06:42 but is way less ugly 13:06:44 tusho, my question was not about obfuscated code 13:06:49 i know 13:06:53 you can write obfuscated code in any language I bet 13:06:57 yes 13:07:13 but I don't think PHP can be pretty at all 13:07:14 never 13:07:26 Alternatively beerons could be the subatomic particles in beer. 13:07:51 hm 13:08:08 AnMaster: PHP & Fortran: Fortran is more pleasing in a "ooh, I set my eye on it and it's lovely" way, PHP is more pleasing in a "OK, this code's purpose is clear & elegant" 13:08:13 Of course, neither score very well on either 13:08:28 I think some of it is due to using $ for variables in PHP 13:08:37 shell code can get uggly too 13:08:44 though not as uggly as PHP normally 13:08:45 AnMaster: not really 13:08:46 I often fortran.. uh, I mean, _wonder_ whether there's something fundamentally wrong with PHP, are if it's just that people who write it tend to be... well, you know. 13:08:51 tusho, then what is it? 13:08:52 cleanly-written perl is very pretty 13:09:10 AnMaster: it's that the devs way back in php 3 didn't know shit about how to make a good language 13:09:15 they knew what perl looked like 13:09:18 and they tried to imitate it 13:09:21 and failed, badly 13:09:32 and of course the semantics make you have to write ugly syntax to get around them 13:09:37 issue is I got a course in school which needs using PHP 13:09:38 so... 13:09:47 AnMaster: write a something->php compiler 13:09:48 ;) 13:09:55 tusho, hah 13:10:08 Or a something interpreter in PHP, with the program included. 13:10:40 I once returned a trivial C course assignment as a C brainfuck interpreter, with a brainfuck program included. I think it was automagically graded by some sort of tool, so that was pretty useless. 13:11:07 fizzie, haha 13:11:19 what did the tool think of it? 13:11:24 auto graded? ugh 13:11:26 that sound sawful 13:11:26 Actually I think the language in question was Scheme, not C, which makes it even less sensible. The tool didn't mind. 13:11:42 anyway, don't think they would accept that, the course is web design... and php is the language used, also well commented code is mentioned 13:11:57 AnMaster: kill your shoe. 13:12:02 tell it: get the flu 13:12:06 open the loo 13:12:06 hm? 13:12:09 and there you can do. 13:12:14 that is the solution 13:12:21 Well, it was the "introduction to programming" course which has a metric ton of students, and those were the weekly exercises. The actual "programming project" was graded by humans. 13:12:22 I think I can code PHP, I done it a bit a few years ago, but I don't like the language 13:12:32 AnMaster: protip if you don't want to kill yourself 13:12:41 php.net/function-or-syntax-element-or-whatever gets you to the docs 13:12:51 and php is so illogical that you will need the docs every second function call 13:12:52 tusho, hm... 13:12:59 e.g. php.net/explode 13:13:02 php.net/if 13:13:05 get you to the right place 13:13:20 hah 13:14:04 AnMaster: [[ Although implode() can, for historical reasons, accept its parameters in either order, explode() cannot. You must ensure that the delimiter argument comes before the string argument. ]] 13:14:16 either order? huh 13:14:20 implode(" ", array(1,2,3)) and implode(array(1,2,3), " ") both work 13:14:24 that is how crazy php is. 13:14:47 hmm 13:14:50 both will result in a string I guess? firefox just crashed so couldn't look at the page 13:14:57 yes 13:14:58 one could have a language where parameter order is irrelevant 13:15:08 Deewiant: smalltalk 13:15:09 :P 13:15:12 Deewiant: Lingua::Romana::Perligata does it. 13:15:14 Deewiant, certainly, named parameters for example 13:15:23 AnMaster: however, explode() only takes them in one order 13:15:25 AnMaster: that's not what I was thinking of 13:15:28 and doesn't let you do the other way 13:15:32 tusho, hm... 13:15:35 and I guess that applies to smalltalk as well 13:15:49 Deewiant: well, smalltalk actually has order 13:15:56 (foo bar: x baz: y) is actually 13:16:00 Deewiant, well you could make sure you could always tell by the type or making functions where it didn't matter 13:16:02 however 13:16:07 call #bar:baz: on foo with (x,y) 13:16:08 how would you do pow(x,y) 13:16:11 in such a language 13:16:14 so yo ucan't do (foo baz: x bar: y) 13:16:15 Deewiant: Well, Perligata uses the Latin declensions to indicate the role of any part of the line. 13:16:19 same with obj-c 13:17:15 Okay, admittedly Perligata cheats a bit for function arguments; you need to specify those in order. But the function name and thing-to-assign-the-result-to-if-any and such can be in any order. 13:18:03 AnMaster: return all possible results in a tuple 13:18:06 Deewiant, you could do stuff like max(x,y) and stuff where the types are different, ie foo(int x, string a), but not stuff like a function pow(x, y) (returning x^y) 13:18:12 Deewiant, hah 13:18:15 pow(x,y) returns (x^y, y^x) 13:18:39 hmm 13:19:03 yeah, I guess one could define an order so that you always know which element of the tuple is which result 13:19:33 Deewiant, you could have a language without functions then claim that "parameter order for functions in this language doesn't matter" 13:19:42 of course no one could prove it then ;) 13:19:52 sure you can prove it 13:20:15 well it would be a nonsense statement 13:20:17 is what I meant 13:20:20 all (const False) [] is True ;-) 13:20:41 heh what language is that? 13:20:47 haskell 13:20:57 ah what does that code do then? 13:21:24 it calls all with (const False) and []. 13:21:27 well 13:21:33 it calls (call all with (const False)) with []. 13:21:36 all returns true if the given predicate returns true for all elements of the given list 13:21:53 I find haskell's syntax unusually cryptic for an outsider, most other languages you probably guess what some basic stuff does if you know other languages from the same paradigm 13:22:07 AnMaster: it's very different 13:22:09 though you can 13:22:15 if you knew ML, haskell wouldn't be too hard 13:22:17 Miranda too 13:22:21 even gofer 13:22:32 haskell is an ML descendent 13:22:52 hm 13:23:22 -!- Mony has joined. 13:23:41 if you know math haskell is trivial :-P 13:23:49 that too :p 13:23:57 hi 13:23:58 but i kind of suck at mathematical notation and such 13:24:04 so i know haskell from MLy things 13:28:55 well I know math, but the notation... well same as tusho 13:29:08 i'm not actually all that hot with mathematics ;p 13:29:25 well I do like math 13:29:45 and well the notation I know.... doesn't really match Haskell at all 13:30:20 it does 13:30:22 you just don't know it yet 13:30:34 all (const False) [] is True ;-) <-- Don't remember any smiley in my math text books 13:30:46 in fact nothing like that syntax 13:30:55 AnMaster: um, that isn't code 13:30:59 "is True ;-)" was in english 13:31:04 ah 13:31:05 all (const False) [] was the code 13:31:12 ok that looks like an array? 13:31:16 no 13:31:17 a list 13:31:26 ok. not sure what it does though 13:31:31 specifically the [] part of data [] a = a : [a] | [] 13:31:35 make all elements of a list false? 13:31:35 I explained it above 13:31:48 all returns true if the given predicate returns true for all elements of the given list 13:31:49 well 13:31:52 that was cryptic! 13:31:59 no 13:32:00 what part 13:32:00 it wasn't. 13:32:07 to me it was 13:32:14 what part 13:32:26 Deewiant: the part where you didn't talk in low-level details 13:32:30 hah 13:32:35 meh 13:32:52 Deewiant: quick, explain to him the asm that powers thunks 13:33:03 sorry, I'm unaware of it :-) 13:33:17 Deewiant: evidently, thunks don't exist 13:34:25 so.. it returns true if calling a given function on elements in the list returns true for each object? 13:34:33 err s/object/element/ 13:34:33 yep 13:42:46 well arch is really bleeding edge... GCC 4.3.2 released August 27... It is in stable Arch Linux (not testing) today 13:51:47 a bit too much bleeding edge there IMO 13:52:08 Phew, that was quite an adventure, copying 30 A4 sheets with the copier here. It was all "open right cover and remove jammed paper", "turn lever", "move unit 2", rotate this know, pull this lever, remove the non-existent jammed paper. Warning: hot surface, do not touch... but open it anyway. 13:52:20 s/know/knob/ 13:52:36 heh 13:53:06 non-existent jammed paper, that's a new one to me 13:53:20 And it was pretty hot, I could feel the heat at a distance of ~10 cm. The part right next to it that I had to open was made out of some sort of special fuzzy non-heat-conductive material. 13:54:05 One printer I have used had a habit of inventing paper jams that did not really exist; you just had to open and close all openable parts of the printer, then it would resume. 13:57:19 anyway how does a copier detect paper jams? 13:58:46 Oh, I'm sure there are some sort of sensors in there. 13:58:57 hm 13:58:57 -!- Tritonio_ has quit ("Leaving"). 13:59:56 "We've been rotating this drum a while now, but the sensor before it is saying there's a paper present, while the sensor after it says not, and the situation doesn't seem to be changing" => complain. 14:00:13 hm makes sense 14:00:26 This is all just speculation, though; it could be that they've stuck little goblins in there to monitor the stuff. 14:00:59 couldn't you detect it by checking how much current the motors driving the feeder mechanism used? 14:01:32 probably not a good idea, it would differ between say, normal paper and photo paper 14:02:11 The paper path in that monster of a copier is probably several miles long. Well, not really, but it's still an imposing thing. At least printers are smaller than I am, I don't feel quite so threatened by them. 14:02:24 fizzie, I know my printer got some sort of optical sensor built in, because I see a blue light from inside at the start of every paper, but that goes away if I turn off "auto detect paper type" 14:03:01 it is also used to check the result during aligning carriages (spelling?) I think 14:03:02 There's a gigabyte or so of memory in that beast, too. 14:03:20 well mine is a simple multifunction ink printer 14:03:25 not laser or such 14:05:09 We have a small laser printer at home, and I don't think it has ever had a paper jam, but even if it had, there's a single cover to open. That copier has a dozen of little green levers and knobs and whatnot, and the LCD screen in it just keeps running a two-frame animation about manipulating them all, which doesn't really help a whole lot, especially since I constantly have a feeling that if I make one false move, it'll eat my fingers. And collate and stapl 14:05:14 this printer works very well, from HP. only complaint really is that it is hard to reach inside when changing ink carriages and unjamming paper... the upper part with scanner and such tilt back when you open, except it doesn't tilt a lot. 14:05:22 other than that it is very good 14:06:07 Auto-stapling copiers are scary anyway. If that thing goes on a rampage, it has a built-in weapon in it. 14:06:20 fizzie, heh... 14:06:28 Fortunately it probably won't fit through the doors. 14:06:42 fizzie, how did they get it in then? 14:06:52 or was it built in the room? 14:06:53 Maybe they built the building around it. 14:07:10 fizzie, is it on street level then? 14:07:26 No, third floor. They must've suspended it in the air with wires or something. 14:07:29 ah ok 14:07:57 fizzie, does it act as printer as well? 14:08:21 Sure. And as a scanner, too; you just use the touchscreen to enter your email address, and it'll send the scans as .tiffs or .pdfs to you. 14:08:35 I remember seeing some that showed up as a network postscript printer, think it was at one of my parents work place... 14:10:16 I'm not sure whether we have a printer queue for that copier, since there's a rather big HP LaserJet 8150 printer right next to it. But in a previous workplace all "over 100 pages or so" print jobs were recommended to be sent to the copier for printing. 14:10:34 The printer setup dialog had a nifty thing where you could specify which corner of the paper to staple. 14:12:52 100 pages... that's a lot 14:14:32 fizzie, how many "heaps" of paper can it staple at once? 14:14:53 heaps? O(log n) to find the smalles piece of paper? 14:14:57 +t 14:15:15 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:15:48 Deewiant, as in if you specify 5 copies of a bunch of papers, then it feeds each to a different tray and can staple those bunches with one button press or whatever 14:17:12 No clue, really. There's also some sort of upper page count for things to be stapled together, but I don't remember that either. 14:17:46 fizzie, anyway lets hope the door is thick in case of.... problems... 14:17:57 -!- moozilla has joined. 14:18:02 ;) 14:25:42 It's a glass door... maybe not even velociraptor-proof. 14:26:06 ouch 14:26:34 fizzie, that is a work safety issue 14:27:03 Well, I'll have to leave (to go buy a fridge/freezer) in ~15 minutes anyway, so the copier won't get me today, at least. 14:28:09 cya 14:28:37 i chipped my tooth recently 14:28:50 there was some glass covering something but I didn't see it so I just smacked right into it 14:28:51 Bye. Didn't remember to look at the OS X cfunge linker thing, but since I'm theoretically speaking supposed to be working here, maybe it's for the best; will consider it at home later. 14:28:52 :D 14:29:01 fizzie, anyway why not unplug the copier while fixing the issue+ 14:29:02 ? 14:29:18 I would never try to replace a fan or whatever in a plugged in computer 14:29:22 I don't dare, it could interpret it as an act of aggression. 14:29:32 Besides, I wouldn't see the "helpful" instructions if it were unplugged. 14:30:42 i have plugged in ram on a turned-on computer before, I think 14:30:50 had to restart, ofc 14:30:55 to make it recognize it :P 14:31:41 I have hot-swapped several cards that weren't really meant to be hot-swapped, although it's obviously just stupid. I think some ISA card actually even worked without a restart. 14:32:13 The "let's remove the PCI display card and plug it back in to reset this otherwise unfixable display issue" attempt wasn't as successful. 14:32:33 i pretty much think that dying because of hotswapping a computer component and bursting into flame would be pretty awesome 14:32:43 so it's not like i'll go out of my way to make sure i hotswap stuff safely 14:33:43 It's significantly more likely to just kill your hardware, not you, which would kind of suck. 14:33:55 Not that I want you dead or anything. No-no. 14:38:25 hehehe :D 14:39:28 but actually I once started a computer with open case, only as far as bios though, needed to find out which of the fans didn't work 14:40:18 I had a computer with no case running as a router on my floor for a year or so. :p 14:40:31 I've been paranoid about death for a while now, not really out of any fear, but in that ... what will you guys think? 14:40:33 oh btw, don't try to hotplug PS/2 keyboards 14:40:36 I mean, i'd just not ever come back online. 14:40:45 You'd just think I'd "dropped off the face of the internet" as is said. 14:40:47 caused a reboot when I tried 14:40:59 Then I dropped a coca-cola glass on top of it's hard drive, which broke both of 'em; that's when I resolved to get a case for that box. 14:41:03 as in computer had just pressed reset button 14:41:45 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving."). 14:41:58 Fridge-hunting now. -> 14:42:46 tusho, think -> means "heading out" or "going afk" or similiar 14:42:48 I* 14:42:52 yes I know 14:42:55 but why do all finns use it 14:42:55 :) 14:43:02 good question 14:43:05 can't answer it 14:44:16 hmph 14:44:23 google ought to have a search query that returns totally random results 14:44:26 same for image search 14:44:32 that'd be fun 14:44:39 hmm, you could make a game out of the image search 14:44:45 a website that presents two totally random google images 14:44:49 you pick which one you like best 14:44:53 and there are high-scores, etc 14:44:57 that would be amusing 15:06:09 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:11:56 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 15:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=esobot&word2=egobot :( :(. 16:12:43 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:16:00 That was very efficient. 16:25:07 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:25:18 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:26:35 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:27:53 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 16:42:20 fizzie: a 16:48:49 A what? 16:50:16 fizzie: a a. 16:50:52 A++++ would buy again. 16:51:35 fizzie: a a+++++ a a a a. 16:55:55 Has someone been doing some s/\w+/a/g stuff here again? 16:56:10 fizzie: a? 16:56:19 A. 16:56:23 fungot: A? 16:56:24 fizzie: not quite sure why you would use car that many times. basically everyone seems to think that i shall never hear a poem frightful as a bear, that keeps pooping primes. 16:57:25 That's a pretty frightful bear indeed. 17:01:19 fungot: A new poem, I see. Care to compose it with optbot after this? 17:01:20 tusho: ( not straight.). i hope they're not watching. 17:01:21 tusho: It's also UNIX-only. Maybe even GNU/Linux-only. :P 17:01:43 ^echo optbot 17:01:44 optbot optbot 17:01:44 tusho: btw: 2^3*5^2*11*17*19*31*53*61*101*109*151*181*271*541*811*3001*4051*5779*12301*18451*42391*43201*109441*119611*140401*221401*394201*5020651*15608701*230686501*3467131047901*6641555895901*1114769954367361*1361918785737982855951*11981661982050957053616001*10237949952357183751384463924412751*656996318953349439721732908912325829378630572990405083901 17:01:44 fungot: for instance I think you need ^ to swap elements 1 and 3 of the stack 17:01:45 optbot: considering only processors still useful today, though not any less flexible... it predates my compiler rewrite. the author must be taking the tfy-0.201 course this autumn. 17:01:46 fungot: i'm still improving my assembler 17:01:47 optbot: one of them :p, 2) it's ( syntactically) long, and brainfuck command keys 17:01:47 fungot: instruction if it is the iterated one 17:01:48 optbot: at least if you find some ones in string searching, by any chance?) 17:01:49 fungot: 1.8ghz. 17:01:49 optbot: heh. i tried saving into one of them is about to execute instruction at ( 1,2), ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 17:01:50 fungot: kipple: no 17:02:17 wow 17:02:18 that's some poem 17:02:23 fungot: any last words or does it stand for itself? 17:02:24 tusho: counting to ten modulo two before punching him? does it involve? doing it the way you would calibrate a normal thermometer. bf 17:02:37 ah a new poem's start 17:02:47 fungot: moar? 17:02:47 tusho: sweet. thanks soegaard. i halfway there :) fnord bytes now, i could use a move instruction on the bf program on the phone, and it 17:03:02 fungot: Verbose lines these days 17:03:03 tusho: but is there a reason to be in normalized syntax is not the 17:03:33 fungot: I love your rearrangement of the deconstruction of the syntactical elements - it borders on the legible while still meta-commenting on the meaningless of the elements' structure. 17:03:34 tusho: in my head requires conditionals. don't complicate the simple primitive if. cond 17:03:47 fungot: I know - great minds do not know what they achieve... 17:03:55 I'm not entirely certain the line-ending algorithm of fungot works; the stuff sounds pretty truncated. 17:03:56 fizzie: more simply put: siod sucks as a general purpose language. 17:04:11 Maybe there is a line in the logs that ends "is not the". 17:04:14 fungot: The truncation is what powers the self, is it not? 17:04:15 tusho: lower species can be that the implementation was just broken. for other stuff, it calls the recursion again and tries to prove what we were about to divide that or so. 17:04:29 fungot: Your final ll;ine? 17:04:30 tusho: open any scheme source file with an alternative reader for ( a b c d" perl fnord ' print " n".join(s)' line 17:04:54 [2006-12-05 14:12:48] < egal> 13:11 < ELECTR00> losing energy like an idiot is not THE 17:04:57 Apparently so. 17:05:09 The incorporation of the comparison with programming languages' syntaxes and their relative uniformity as a satire on natural languages is inspired. 17:05:29 http://rafb.net/p/bSDi5y65.html poemular work of fungot issue 2 17:05:29 tusho: my favorite part is " equal")' prints nothing) it doesn't compile. having the language be useable to some extent. it just happens 17:05:33 they just keep getting longer lines 17:05:54 the latest one is more dense & obscure than the first by a lot. 17:06:07 Perhaps a new era in fungot's poemular work is needed? Will it return to minimalism? 17:06:08 tusho: the only thing that can't completely be optimized is stuff where a part of scsh is already nearly completely documented, and only if there is any 17:06:16 Apparently not. 17:07:37 I can return it to minimalism by decreasing the number used to divide the amount of words already generated when deciding whether to stop or not. But maybe that would be too cruel. 17:08:16 Currently every six generated words increases the stopping probability by .05 or something like that. 17:11:40 fizzie: Do it, he must be tweaked! 17:13:51 ^reload 17:13:52 Reloaded. 17:13:59 fungot: Do you feel like being less verbose now? 17:13:59 fizzie: a pro at that :)) 17:15:23 Actually it's .0625, not .5, in the Befunge version. It was easier to throw a d16 with ? than a d20. 17:16:02 (And it's now so that each generated token gives that +.0625.) 17:39:35 fungot: Poemular next lin? 17:39:35 tusho: yeah, we like such people much more then fnord the syntax if you want 17:39:50 fungot: Your new poem sounds like a rap. 17:39:51 tusho: taupan i tought that scheme worked with pointers/ references 17:40:02 fungot: *scratches record* 17:40:02 tusho: later tell bunny_314 we ( velco, forcer and r2q2? 17:40:08 fungot 17:40:09 tusho: one of my formally fnord questions consists of ordering 25 functions by their asymptotic behaviour. :( 17:40:19 fungot: Last line? 17:40:25 optbot: fungot 17:40:26 tusho: dind't crash. 17:40:30 er. 17:40:35 fizzie: say fungot 17:41:27 fizzie: plz 17:42:44 fungot 17:42:44 Deewiant: an hour each time he comes close to something hot. 17:56:50 anyone know if php handles tail recursion well? 17:56:54 I guess answer is no 17:57:03 very doubtful 17:57:10 most imperative language implementations don't 17:57:20 Deewiant, I seen some that does 17:57:28 yes, as have I 17:57:37 I said "most", not "all" 17:58:54 so now to implement Sieve of Eratosthenes in php (eww) and yes it is for a course in school 17:59:04 otherwise I wouldn't touch php at all 17:59:16 PHP course? 17:59:29 Deewiant, Webdesign + PHP basics 17:59:43 sieve of eratosthenes? 17:59:51 is that web design? :-P 17:59:57 no part of the php bit 18:00:40 assignment was "Print all prime numbers in the range 2-100", well iirc sieve of eratosthenes should fit well for that 18:00:59 AnMaster: 18:01:02 print [2,3,5,7... 18:01:05 why do you take that ourse 18:01:15 although Deewiant++ 18:01:35 and since the range is that tiny 18:01:47 it's easier to make a primality checker 18:01:54 and just loop 2-100 18:01:58 tusho, well in Sweden you have to take a set number of hours in total, and that was the least bad course left to select for the last 50 hours 18:01:59 :P 18:02:14 ++wikipedia: http://www.think-lamp.com/2008/08/sieve-of-eratosthenes-in-php/ 18:02:20 AnMaster: web design & php course sounds pretty fucking bad to me :) 18:02:29 tusho, well sure 18:02:39 i mean, i love web design and all that but all the courses i've seen have sucked 18:02:44 as well as 99% of the tutorials 18:02:48 it's a shame 18:03:30 'regardless of what wikipedia might say :(' 18:03:40 i think i'll trust wp over your lame blog for algorithmic complexity shizz. 18:04:25 hee, implementation of NULL is now just `mixin (Fingerprint!("NULL"));' 18:04:34 Deewiant: cute 18:04:40 now make it (fingerprint "NULL") 18:04:51 or fingerprints NULL = [] 18:05:09 sorry, this is D, I can't improve the syntax 18:05:21 or rather, this is D 1.0 18:05:29 in a later version of 2.0, or 3.0, I should be able to 18:05:35 Deewiant: so don't use d ;) 18:05:46 my second example was meant to be haskell 18:05:54 it wasn't, though 18:05:57 :-P 18:06:06 or hmm 18:06:10 yes 18:06:10 it is 18:06:12 okay, yes, it could be 18:06:15 data Fingerprint = NULL | ... 18:06:17 yeah 18:06:21 misthought 18:06:21 fingerprints :: Fingerprint -> [(dunno)] 18:06:32 ofc, that pattern matching would suck 18:06:34 you'd need a map 18:06:34 but anyhoo 18:06:37 and then it gets less elegant 18:06:43 we already have a haskell impl 18:06:49 so might as well stick with D :-P 18:07:36 hmmmmmmm 18:07:43 what nice fast language is it unimplemented in... 18:07:54 ocaml 18:08:08 Deewiant: i said nice 18:08:15 tusho: Nice 18:08:18 ;-P 18:08:23 Deewiant: :D 18:08:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nice_(programming_language) 18:08:26 CHARITY 18:08:29 and i know 18:08:58 I don't know, what else is nice 18:09:04 after Haskell nothing seems nice any more :-P 18:09:16 Clean, maybe 18:09:30 Deewiant: i said Charity 18:09:30 :P 18:09:59 is it nice? 18:10:50 it's impractical 18:10:51 :P 18:10:54 subturing 18:11:15 meh 18:11:43 http://www.ultratechnology.com/scope.htm 18:38:35 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:38:57 hi oerjan 18:39:18 'evening 18:41:51 optbot! 18:41:51 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I improved my trombute :P. 18:42:49 now to do the same with the troitar and the flugan 18:45:59 oerjan: care for the poemular work of fungot, issue 3? 18:45:59 tusho: fnord or something 18:46:23 fungot: i'm using that as a title for this collection 18:46:23 tusho: lets make a spec first anyway... start a game! 18:46:50 fungot: that part about ordering functions by asymptotic behavior sounded painful 18:46:51 oerjan: rammstein is far more familiar with inner product spaces than i am 18:47:10 hah 18:47:21 that was eerily topical 18:47:32 well, nearly 18:47:47 oerjan: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1192758 18:48:07 fungot: what do you know about hedge funds? 18:48:08 oerjan: but it'll be there the next time you mispaste, please use your wonderful powers to get ipv6 to actually happen. 18:49:37 avoiding the question and trying to shuffle work onto me. that is an evil, evil bot 18:51:05 fungot: surely you cannot be serious 18:51:05 oerjan: no worries either way, very ingenious. 18:51:24 oerjan: i think optbot needs some more love 18:51:25 tusho: it's amusing 18:51:29 exactky 18:51:31 *exactly 18:51:50 * oerjan hugs optbot 18:51:51 oerjan: i never really believed in that 18:52:00 hah 18:52:23 does anyone got a good tutorial about the PE Format ? 18:52:31 tusho, Deewiant: there? 18:52:39 sure 18:52:48 I found a tutorial about the PE Format in Win 3.1 ... 18:52:49 no 18:53:01 how would one go about printing the 100 first primes? Sieve of Eratosthenes is "primes in a range" not the same 18:53:05 Deewiant, just wondering 18:53:16 :| 18:53:24 AnMaster: start at i=0. 18:53:30 from 0..infinity 18:53:32 and go to i=100. 18:53:34 if it is a prime 18:53:38 then increment i 18:53:40 tusho, and then keep going until I found 100 primes hm... 18:53:41 right 18:53:42 stop if i is 100 18:53:50 duh, that I didn't think of that 18:53:58 expert programmer. :| 18:54:12 it might be more efficient to use the sieve with an overestimated range 18:54:22 oerjan: but also overengineering. 18:54:27 oerjan, um? 18:54:33 it's just for a class assignment 18:54:39 this is most likely how they're expecting it to be done 18:54:41 this part was not 18:54:44 even if it's not, it's a better solution 18:54:47 this was just wondering 18:54:47 ah 18:55:01 the class assignment was "find all primes in the range 2-100" 18:55:06 cost-benefit ratio would lead to this solution 18:55:09 for which I used the sieve 18:55:10 AnMaster: then do the same thing :P 18:55:21 for i in 2..100, if prime(i) print i 18:55:23 while I just happened to wonder "what about the first 100 primes" 18:55:23 simple as it gets 18:55:28 and the best way to do it 18:55:30 for such a tiny range 18:55:40 AnMaster: computers can check less than 100 primes very fast, you know 18:55:45 the sieve is a waste 18:55:47 tusho, yep 18:56:03 AnMaster: i'd give more marks for the simple for-loop than the sieve 18:56:10 tusho, oh? 18:56:11 it shows a better way of thinking about the problem 18:56:24 i.e. it's simpler to write a for loop and a trivial prime checker 18:56:27 for such tiny ranges 18:56:33 and thus a better use of time than an all-out sieve 18:56:34 that's what I said 18:56:36 which is overblown for the tiny range 18:56:41 therefore, I would mark the for-loop higher. 18:56:52 tusho, function takes upper limit as parameter ;P 18:56:54 but I don't know 18:57:03 AnMaster: you're missing the point, as usual 18:57:09 takeWhile (<=100) primes is pretty 18:57:21 Deewiant, that is haskell again? 18:57:26 yes 18:57:33 ok so what does that one mean 18:57:33 AnMaster: I want to know how primes are relevant to webdesign. 18:57:40 AnMaster: primes is an infinite list of every prime 18:57:43 what do you think it means 18:57:47 tusho: shush 18:57:50 tusho, as I mention above, it was the introduction to php bit of the course 18:57:51 takeWhile gives all the elements of a list 18:57:54 up to when the predicate fails. 18:57:58 it is webdesign mostly 18:58:01 bah, tusho 18:58:11 Deewiant: there are better ways to irritate AnMaster 18:58:13 that's the kind of thing that should be figured out and not explained 18:58:19 I'm not looking to irritate 18:58:27 I'm not a jerk-ass troll like you :-P 18:58:30 however first section is introduction to php, for example first one was "convert Fahrenheit to Celsius" 18:58:40 yes, but the day AnMaster understands haskell, i'll make a video of me dancing to never gonna give you up 18:58:42 AnMaster: that has the advantage that the other question is just take 100 primes 18:58:43 and i'll post it on youtube 18:59:03 tusho: of course that's a non-statement unless you define "understands haskell" 18:59:11 I don't understand most of Oleg's stuff 18:59:11 oerjan, ? 18:59:23 Deewiant: understands it as much as me, let's say 18:59:25 or many of the GHC typesystem extensions 18:59:27 (and i'm not very good at haskell) 18:59:27 :P 18:59:34 AnMaster: take n list gives the first n elements of a list 18:59:35 tusho, I do understand erlang which is also functional, so maybe I'll try haskell later, won't have time to learn it for some time though 18:59:42 AnMaster: please don't 18:59:44 oerjan, yes 18:59:48 oerjan, ? 18:59:51 tusho, why not? 18:59:54 AnMaster: please do, let's make him post that video 19:00:06 probably next summer 19:00:06 AnMaster: well, do it only when i'm offline 19:00:09 or the xmas 19:00:10 thanks 19:00:21 tusho, maybe at some other random point though 19:00:33 not the next few months at least 19:01:55 fizzie: Could I publish these fungot poems in a book 19:01:56 tusho: now let's up them, right? :) ( but why ledit scheme if you squint 19:02:03 and an interactive cd 19:03:09 tusho: The Mark ov Poetry? 19:03:10 tusho, btw google chrome fail at 64-bit currently, a lot would need to be reworked apart from the java script code generation, for example: the GC used 19:03:16 oerjan: hah 19:03:20 I asked around a bit 19:03:23 AnMaster: what-everrrrrrrrrr 19:03:32 tusho, hm? 19:03:43 AnMaster: that was my demonstration of my lack of caring :D 19:04:14 tusho, you used up your quota of "r" 19:04:21 AnMaster: oh dea. 19:04:24 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:04:31 more r's means more caring, clearly. 19:04:47 have you heard about the rabbit and the rabbi? 19:04:58 hm except it could be just keyboard repetition 19:05:17 was that an answer to mine? 19:05:27 oklopol: sorry, we are leaving out r's not t's at the moment 19:05:56 well that's just kille 19:06:09 although you could tell abbit of the joke 19:06:26 http://hideou.se/counter/ is dead 19:06:27 :( 19:06:38 tusho: what was it? 19:06:44 oerjan: no, it's alive 19:06:46 just not being used 19:06:48 tusho, why is that? 19:06:52 "Top clickers 19:06:52 AnMaster: nobody is clicking. 19:06:52 1. Loading... 19:06:52 " 19:06:54 then nothing 19:06:58 huh. 19:07:01 that shouldn't happen 19:07:04 no, the site works fine 19:07:04 oh javascript 19:07:05 ... 19:07:06 people have just stopped clicking 19:07:09 right 19:07:11 AnMaster: duh :P 19:07:17 oklopol is clicking it seems 19:07:19 you wouldn't be able to click very fast if it didn't use JS 19:07:25 ah, seems i just spurred him on 19:07:25 :P 19:07:41 tusho, I can't see myself I noticed 19:07:42 i just clicked because that was linked 19:07:44 weird 19:07:48 or how many clicks I have 19:07:53 AnMaster: 'cause you've dropped off the highscores 19:07:57 oklopol: er, what about that rabbi and that lagomorph 19:07:57 you're about 1000 behind 19:08:02 tusho, well how many do I have? exactly 19:08:07 AnMaster: 8000 or so 19:08:11 tusho, you should always show yourself 19:08:17 so you've said. 19:08:18 FIVE TIMES 19:08:22 no 19:08:23 i've said it once 19:08:25 first time I said it 19:08:31 tusho, ais said it 5 times 19:08:35 i'd say v4, but since people aren't using it v4 seems unlikely. 19:08:54 people aren't using it because they can't see themselves, methinks 19:09:36 tusho, so where am I now? 19:09:44 oklopol: except the higher-ups aren't clicking 19:09:49 btw i had this idea, dunno if it's any good, you could drop everyones score to half of what it was at the end of every week, and @ every drop, you get a separate point if you're @ the top 5 19:09:53 AnMaster: i am not logging in and checking. you are 8000-something 19:09:57 at 9002, you will be on the highscores 19:10:08 tusho, I still want to know 19:10:14 AnMaster: i am not logging in and checking. 19:10:20 tusho: true, coolness would definitely compete if #2 started clicking again 19:10:20 tusho, I want to stop at 9000 19:10:26 AnMaster: have fun 19:10:29 tusho, then make the webui show it (second time) 19:10:32 i am not logging in and checking. 19:10:38 or logging in and working on it. 19:10:41 tusho, then make the webui show it (third time) 19:10:44 or logging in and working on it. 19:10:49 accept that I will bug you? 19:10:55 accept that i will /ignore you 19:10:58 tusho, damn I went too far :( 19:11:09 i have not /ignored you yet. 19:11:12 but if you do bug me i will. 19:11:34 AnMaster: you just need to learn to count carefully :D 19:12:10 AnMaster: if you get to 15,000 I will set your score to 9000 19:12:19 tusho, no thanks 19:12:25 your los 19:12:26 s 19:12:26 because if I got that far I wouldn't care 19:12:47 AnMaster: ok, if you get to 15,000 i'll make your name fade in rainbow colours. 19:13:06 ON THE MOON 19:13:20 oerjan: i'll add a picture of the death star next to him too. 19:13:25 or rather, any 16x16 picture he gives. 19:16:28 'av a 'tar... 19:18:07 tusho, well maybe I'll reach that some day 19:18:10 not today anyway 19:18:14 got other stuff to do 19:20:18 g 19:21:26 g? 19:21:32 g 19:21:39 a fine letter indeed 19:21:50 invented by the ancient romans 19:22:18 oerjan, did they invent lower case too? 19:22:38 maybe not strictly speaking 19:22:39 oerjan: what is your favourite typeface 19:22:59 times roman, 1000 point 19:23:23 oerjan: i asked about typeface, not size. though i can't imagine times roman@1000pt is very readable 19:23:29 got to compete with old Trajan there 19:23:42 ah, good old Trajan 19:23:44 the movie font 19:23:44 it is from a distance 19:24:00 i mean the monument 19:24:38 Tajan? 19:24:41 Trajan* 19:24:42 ?? 19:24:46 AnMaster: GOOGLE 19:24:54 my favourite typeface is arial, or perhaps verdana! 19:25:12 ah there is a trajan font 19:25:13 Marcus Ulpius Nerva Traianus, commonly known as Trajan (September 18, 53 – August 9, 117), was a Roman Emperor who reigned from 98 until his death in 117. Born Marcus Ulpius Traianus into a nonpatrician family... 19:25:15 right 19:25:22 AnMaster: and see the top line 19:25:28 AnMaster: you might want to add 'font' to the google string 19:25:32 given that that was the topic and all 19:26:08 I am sad that nobody mauled me for saying my favourite font was arial or verdana 19:26:18 Was it too subtle? Should I have said Comic Sans MS? 19:26:22 I'll only maul you if... yeah, that. 19:27:13 Deewiant: except i did not mean the font, at first 19:27:32 darn 19:27:41 tusho: what-everrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr 19:27:49 * oerjan ducks 19:27:55 oerjan: I'm glad you care so much thanks :) 19:27:58 Remember? More r = more care. 19:28:08 You said it yourself. 19:28:10 I prefer the Bitstream Vera family of fonts 19:28:17 * tusho mauls AnMaster 19:28:18 and then i changed my mind, remember? 19:28:19 for printed I like Computer Modern 19:28:20 :D 19:28:21 it rucks 19:28:24 rocks* 19:28:33 AnMaster never ever do anything that involves anything like typography ever 19:28:35 ok :D 19:28:42 tusho, it was a joke duh 19:28:49 though CM isn't that bad 19:28:55 but indeed not for printed 19:28:55 'I prefer the Bitstream Vera family of fonts' 19:28:56 was that a joke 19:28:59 or anything 19:29:02 because that's what i mauled you for. 19:29:06 tusho, I do use it on IRC and such 19:29:16 Bitstream Vera Sans Mono 19:29:19 to be specific 19:29:23 AnMaster: well, i use monaco 10pt on irc, doesn't mean i consider monaco @ 10pt typographically nice ;) 19:29:26 or maybe it is dejavu 19:29:30 -!- Corun has joined. 19:29:30 tusho, indeed 19:29:33 but that wasn't what I said 19:29:41 but from a typeface point of view bitstream vera fonts are pretty crap 19:29:45 they're just so bland 19:29:51 and the proportions are really weird, to me 19:29:53 that's not necessarily bad 19:30:02 Deewiant: yea, but it's not bland in a good way 19:30:06 tusho, what do you think of CM? 19:30:09 it's bland in an "oh, bitstream vera. beh" 19:30:22 AnMaster: it has a charm, but i'm not a fan 19:30:24 well, it's a matter of opinion 19:31:49 i quite like Univers 19:31:52 so what is a good serif? 19:31:53 free 19:31:54 but not as something to put a book in 19:31:59 for use with printed stuff 19:32:07 AnMaster: there are, like, 3 freely-licensed fonts out there. 19:32:14 none of them are much good 19:35:15 tusho, CM, LM, AE, (all variants of CM really, so not fair), Bistream Vera, Courier, Courier New, Utopia and iirc a few more 19:35:23 not sure how free they are 19:35:28 AnMaster: okay, so like 10 19:35:29 :P 19:35:30 let me check licenses for packages 19:35:53 heck, most typefaces predate the very recent idea of "free culture" 19:36:33 yes... 19:38:40 well Utopia isn't open, it is free as in beer only it seems 19:39:00 provided you include "Copyright (c) 1989 Adobe Systems Incorporated" 19:39:02 heh 19:39:03 AnMaster: funny - if you drop the capital from the U there it seems to remain just as true. 19:39:21 tusho, topia? 19:39:26 'the capital from the U' 19:39:29 i.e. it becomes 'u' 19:39:40 um 19:39:43 "well utopia isn't open, it is free as in beer only it seems" 19:39:53 well utopia doesn't exist :P 19:42:10 utopia, by definition, does not exist 19:42:23 it is a word though 19:42:30 ye 19:42:31 yes* 19:42:59 utopia/heaven is a paradox anyway 19:43:08 "everything is perfect" sounds awful to me 19:43:22 life is great because of all the bad stuff, all the little less-than-perfect thiings, combined with the perfect things 19:43:28 everything perfect is just draining and monotonous 19:43:49 * oerjan wants to beat up tusho now to make him happier 19:44:02 oerjan: er, not quite :D 19:44:28 and that btw was almost no joke at all 19:44:33 life is awesome 19:44:45 oerjan: you disagree with me then? :P 19:44:47 oklopol: totally! 19:44:51 yep 19:45:08 oerjan: er, not quite :D <-- so you aren't into that then? 19:45:08 ;P 19:45:13 oerjan: wanna advance some arguments? :P 19:45:45 if boredom is possible, then it is not really perfect 19:46:03 oerjan: right, but boredom isn't perfect 19:46:08 therefore if it is perfect it cannot have boredom 19:46:19 ergo nothing is perfect and utopia/heaven cannot exist 19:46:21 it's 5 years since i last was bored 19:46:30 i don't really remember what it feels like 19:46:36 O_O 19:46:38 probably just as fun as the rest though 19:47:55 oklopol: you need to write a self-help book for others to learn that :D 19:47:56 oklopol: i am going to grep "oklopol" "i'm" "bored" 19:48:03 and "oklopol" "i" "am" "bored" 19:48:06 in optbot's logs 19:48:07 tusho: Among other things, Linux 0.1 has a hard-coded keyboard map. . . 19:48:08 and we'll see. 19:48:51 you do that 19:50:19 tusho: done? 19:50:26 almost 19:51:04 tusho@rutian:~/optbot$ egrep -i ".*i'm.*bored" * 19:51:04 07.11.04:12:54:10 i'm not bored 19:51:05 tusho@rutian:~/optbot$ 19:51:05 lol 19:51:05 tusho: how about run-time lazy type checking? :P 19:51:05 tusho: not that 19:51:30 and nothing for i am bored 19:51:40 oklopol: you win 19:52:37 what a surprise :P 19:52:40 tusho, what about me? 19:53:04 tusho, anyway you forgot oklofok 19:53:06 and a few more 19:53:10 while you're at it, why not find an occasion of me complaining about the rain 19:53:20 or perhaps that i hate esoteric languages 19:53:40 AnMaster: oklokok has never been bored either, now for oklofok 19:53:58 nope 19:54:03 tusho, and me? 19:54:06 AnMaster: none 19:54:10 hah 19:54:10 not searching /mes 19:54:13 cause i can't be arsed 19:54:15 tusho: try never+bored 19:54:23 oklopol: no lazy 19:54:56 tusho, what about yourself? 19:55:19 wtf 19:55:19 no results 19:55:24 that's not right 19:55:39 I'm usually not bored either 19:55:46 I tend to rather have too much to do 19:57:08 there can be only one explanation 19:57:14 oklopol is satan 19:57:22 oerjan, eh? 19:57:24 tusho: try "was bored" 19:57:39 i don't believe in satans 19:58:01 that's what you want us to think 19:59:45 I can be bored by doing stuff sure, but never because I got nothing to do 20:00:11 AnMaster: what does that mean? 20:00:12 tusho: I obviously have nothing against a fungot book, but I have no clue whatsoever whether the stuff fungot spews out is some sort of a derived work. 20:00:12 fizzie: i understand what u were asking 20:00:24 fizzie: fair use probably 20:00:42 i guess i'll just make a book with all sorts of non-directed writing 20:00:48 stolen fair and square 20:01:00 markov bots, where you write without trying to write anything in particualr ( i forget the term) 20:01:02 etc. 20:01:51 bye 20:01:55 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire..."). 20:03:47 bye 20:04:03 what's vaincre? 20:04:20 darn 20:04:35 i was trying not to wonder about that 20:05:01 Vaincre - To conquer 20:05:55 ah 20:06:05 is peril... err... peril? 20:06:15 you'd think so 20:06:23 no i wouldn't 20:06:33 or danger 20:08:00 Deewiant, anything new with befunge the last few days? 20:08:02 http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/p%C3%A9ril 20:08:05 haven't had time to keep up 20:08:09 it even has the quote 20:12:27 AnMaster: not really afaik 20:13:08 beeeeeeeeeeee 20:13:28 did you get stung? 20:14:27 yes i sure and totally did 20:14:31 it was effin awesome 20:14:40 oklopol: do you not feel pain 20:14:48 i shall be leaving now, need to read my book 20:14:51 i do feel pain 20:14:56 i don't really feel cold though 20:18:09 Robots do not feel pain! 20:18:35 oklopol: so wait 20:18:39 does the pain, like, hurt? 20:18:48 you don't seem to have the averse reaction that most humans do to it. 20:19:17 it doesn't really hurt when bees sting 20:19:31 and pain isn't usually that bad 20:20:00 unless it's in the eye or the ...belly button, seems i only know the kid term :P 20:20:20 Navel. 20:20:47 As in, "navel-gazing", an idiom I don't think we have in Finnish. Or do we? 20:21:14 1. omphaloskepsis, navel-gazing -- (literally, the contemplation of one's navel, which is an idiom usually meaning complacent self-absorption) 20:21:35 I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "navankatselu" or something. 20:22:21 well, navlebeskuelse is in norwegian 20:23:08 well people talk about caring only about ones own navel 20:23:18 but i'm not sure there's an actual idiom 20:23:49 The MOT dictionary translates navel-gazing as "omaan napaan tuijottaminen", lit. "staring at one's own navel", but I don't think it's exactly the same thing. 20:24:08 There's a distinct sense of selfishness there. 20:24:26 well i don't know navel-gazing 20:24:40 assumed it's selffishness 20:24:45 *selfishness 20:25:17 a social fish so selfish 20:25:23 Shellfish. 20:25:28 how can that be 20:25:31 hmm 20:25:42 well that's not really pronounced the same 20:25:50 but if you can fit it in, it would make that better 20:26:08 not that social fish and so selfish are pronounced the same either 20:26:24 It can be if you have "s"-pronunciation trouble, I think. 20:26:36 the olde shibboleth 20:26:37 like,lisp 20:26:40 like, lisp 20:26:51 lisp can do that! 20:27:07 hmm actually lisp is that other thing i think 20:27:13 godfuck, i really need to read :) 20:27:14 -> 20:28:24 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 20:28:33 tusho 20:28:37 oh no 20:28:48 you look like david deutsch. 20:28:53 ok. 20:28:59 only younger. 20:29:03 and more esoteric. 20:29:08 oh no <-- hey! for once that wasn't directed at me! :D 20:29:10 * AnMaster runs 20:29:27 LITHP is said to be useful in protheththing lithtth. Says the fortune. 20:29:49 i like how you didn't lisp all the s's 20:30:02 Only the part I was directly quoting. 20:30:16 You know you just missed oklopol, right? 20:30:52 we all miss him. it was such a tragedy. 20:31:06 A senseless waste of human life. 20:31:16 as long as the body's still warm 20:31:24 imagine, to be drowned in koskenkorva. well it was appropriately finnish at least. 20:32:39 koskenkorva? 20:33:13 swedes should use absolut instead 20:33:29 transvestites love jar jar binks. 20:33:52 jar-jar, you're a genius 20:35:17 oerjan, I'm a "nykterist" 20:35:23 not sure if you got a word for that over there 20:35:45 nor sure of English word 20:35:59 teetotaller 20:36:01 AnMaster: what does that mean? 20:36:02 teet- ah. 20:38:34 it means teet? 20:38:35 :P 20:38:44 In Finnish the corresponding word is "absolutisti", and there are lots of bad puns related to that and the "Absolut" brand vodka. 20:39:00 fizzie: Absolut-isti 20:39:02 haha i maed pun 20:39:17 psygnisfive, tusho, it means I don't drink alcohol 20:39:25 i am aware. 20:39:32 god, you treat me like a preschooler 20:39:40 well you asked me 20:39:41 norwegian: avholdsmann/-kvinne 20:39:43 ... 20:39:48 AnMaster: no, but oerjan already said it 20:39:49 and i said 'ah'. 20:39:52 oerjan, sounds like it fit 20:40:03 also just because someone makes a joke -see psygnisfive- doesn't mean they don't understand 20:40:49 so whats new in the world of esolangs guys 20:40:59 nothing 20:41:12 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving."). 20:41:17 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:41:28 ¿./$%./..$%$$$/././.$$./././.%%%$$$%$%$%/./.$%/.$%$%$%$$$$$$$$? 20:41:33 That could totally be an esolang. 20:41:44 its not already? 20:41:50 probably another bf clone 20:41:55 yeah. 20:42:00 most esolangs are bf clones :( 20:42:08 cyphered BF clones. 20:42:09 :\ 20:42:17 Yeah, malbolge is totally a bf clone. 20:42:34 theoretically all are, if you just make the cypher complicated enough :D 20:42:44 corun: do you understand the meaning of "most"? 20:42:47 im guessing not. 20:43:03 mm, most 20:43:06 Do you understand that I was clearly not being serious 20:43:07 eplemost, that is 20:43:12 I'm guessing not :-) 20:43:31 so you weren't being sarcastic? 20:43:32 Corun: psygnisfive only understands the 'joke with punchline' kind of humour 20:43:36 Oh 20:43:42 (He's american) 20:43:59 quite the contrary tusho 20:44:04 what 20:44:05 i interpreted what he said as being sarcastic 20:44:07 youre not amercian? 20:44:09 hence why i responded why i did 20:44:31 I was being sarcastic, but I was also not being serious. 20:44:36 Corun: exactly 20:44:48 he was joking with sarcasm 20:44:51 i don't see the point of it. was it supposed to be funny? 20:44:54 as tusho implies? 20:44:55 psygnisfive: it was funny 20:44:59 i chuckled 20:45:06 yes, but ask yourself why 20:45:37 if you chuckled because you thought it was a humorous retort against what i said, then it fails, because its not a retort at all. 20:45:42 no 20:45:43 i didn't 20:45:46 ok. 20:45:51 see, you're treating it as sarcasm to make a serious point 20:45:51 oerjan, only most? 20:45:52 you have a weird sense of humor then. 20:45:57 he was being sarcastic to make a joke 20:46:04 i dont get the joke. 20:46:10 why is it funny? 20:46:10 oerjan, oh true, there are the quantum ones, and then the banana-scheme or whatever it was called 20:46:12 right 20:46:44 what line are you referring to psygnisfive and tusho? 20:46:57 My line about malbolge 20:47:00 the comment that Malbolge is a BF clone 20:47:07 psygnisfive: that is not the comment 20:47:16 Corun: see. american. :| 20:47:21 tusho: what? 20:47:24 yes it is 20:47:26 "CorunYeah, malbolge is totally a bf clone." 20:47:35 psygnisfive: yes, but it was a sarcastic comment 20:47:39 i know that 20:47:43 and then, it evaluated then inverted 20:47:46 to account for sarcasm 20:47:50 that statement that you get there 20:47:51 was a joke 20:48:02 humor is not sarcasm 20:48:07 and sarcasm is not humor 20:48:08 no 20:48:11 that was not the humour 20:48:15 the sarcasm was a layer over the humour 20:48:15 then what was the humor 20:48:16 god 20:48:23 psygnisfive: the humour was in the statement post-sarcasm processing 20:48:26 this is all so confusing 20:48:28 and yet it wouldn't be funny without the sarcasm 20:48:36 what post-sarcasm processing? 20:48:39 now shut the hell up and stop saying "lol i didnt get it lol" over and over again. 20:48:40 thanks. 20:48:45 the inversion of the meaning? 20:48:52 yes. 20:48:54 i don't get it 20:48:59 sarcasm _is_ inversion of meaning. 20:49:00 Corun: can you just explain it to him 20:49:00 kthx 20:49:03 so where is the humor. 20:49:17 tusho, you're just an idiot and don't know what the fuck you're laughing about. 20:49:27 psygnisfive: yes, and fuck you do 20:49:29 *too 20:50:16 corun, what makes it funny. 20:50:33 #esoteric, the channel with TC humor 20:50:55 * tusho is vaguely amused that psygnisfive, faced with something he can't understand, always claims that others are just fools instead of accepting that he was the one who didn't get it 20:51:42 now _that's_ american *ducks* 20:52:02 oerjan: :) 20:52:06 What, are American ducks somehow different? NURRR so confused. 20:52:07 tusho, perhaps the fact that your explanations are vacuous is why i called you an idiot 20:52:10 "Corun Yeah, malbolge is totally a bf clone." 20:52:11 well 20:52:20 theoretically all are, if you just make the cypher complicated enough :D 20:52:23 there 20:52:24 fizzie: they come in pairs 20:52:41 Sigh 20:52:44 hmm, I see we are all displaying our talents 20:52:52 psygnisfive randomly insulting everyone because he doesn't get something 20:52:56 AnMaster missing a joke 20:53:00 and oerjan making a terrible joke 20:53:00 AnMaster: i _was_ forgetting the super-TC ones though 20:53:03 and Corun sighing 20:53:15 and tusho being an idiot. 20:53:19 I don't have a special talent? :( 20:53:20 can't forget that. 20:53:24 oerjan, as I suggested 20:53:24 -=S¡gH-= 20:53:34 fizzie: no, as you're generally reasonable. 20:53:36 oerjan, is Quantum ones super-TC? 20:53:39 I guess not 20:53:45 /saɪ/ 20:53:55 psygnisfive: you win the prize for 'closest demonstration of point':'when point was said' ratio. 20:53:55 I guess I need some sort of special power now, to fit in here. 20:54:00 congratz. 20:54:21 although i ask, if i'm always such an idiot, why don't you just /ignore me? 20:54:22 anmaster: if you ask david deutsch, quantum computers are not more powerful than turing machinese 20:54:25 they're just faster 20:54:28 AnMaster: no, just more space efficient 20:54:41 right 20:54:53 anyway I'm so sleepy 20:54:56 going to bed 20:54:57 night 20:54:57 his lack of reply shows that he might have 20:54:59 awesome 20:55:04 * tusho brbs regardless 20:55:28 er wait 20:55:30 tusho: sorry, i didn't see what you said. i didn't say you're always an idiot, just that you excel at it. 20:55:32 _time_ efficient 20:55:51 and space efficient. 20:55:57 tho it depends on how you define space :) 20:56:34 It was funny because of multiple reasons. The thought of malbolge being a bf clone is, in itself, slightly amusing. But it wouldn't be properly funny without the sarcasm because the sarcasm makes it appear as though it's a serious point. Except that actually, it's just intended as a joke. Which, also makes it more funny. 20:56:41 given that quantum computations occur on more particles in more universes than there are particles in ours, that might be considered slightly inefficient 20:56:42 lol. 20:57:20 corun: ok. i still don't see how its funny to simply state something that's false as tho it were true. 20:57:29 the sky is red! lololol. 20:57:35 You're not looking at the detail 20:57:40 It doesn't work with just any statement 20:57:47 You can't apply simple rules to make humour 20:58:24 In that exact context, it was funny. But you didn't find it funny cos you took it as a serious statement 20:58:25 ayeeh! the sky is blood-colored! armageddon is at hand! 20:58:29 sure but i dont see why its even funny in context 20:58:41 And you're not gonna find it funny looking back because the moment is lost 20:59:08 indeed. 20:59:17 Not only is it lost 20:59:20 BUT YOU RUINED IT. 20:59:22 :-) 20:59:22 i just can't even imagine how it might be funny. 20:59:27 i think you ruined it. 20:59:29 by saying it. 20:59:30 :P 20:59:52 can i have a special talent? 20:59:55 being absent? 20:59:59 being sexy. 21:00:02 oklopol: you're the pervert 21:00:13 oklopol is certainly not a pervert, oerjan 21:00:14 It's not like, "rofl" funny. But it is kinda "heh" funny. I mean, it's just a slight joke. Ya know. 21:00:18 not with me in the room. 21:00:41 corun: the majority of people i know say "heh" to indicate unfunniness. :P 21:00:53 Heh. 21:00:55 its the small fake laugh you give when someone failed to be funny. 21:00:59 don't pop my prejudices! 21:01:10 can i pop your something else? 21:01:16 You're wrong again ;-) 21:01:22 maybe 21:01:26 im wrong again about most people i know? 21:01:27 No-one says "heh" in actual speach 21:01:37 And in IRC it just means a small laugh 21:01:37 says you! 21:01:45 well we obviously know different people 21:01:51 The people you know suck. 21:01:53 :-) 21:01:57 many of them do! 21:02:08 i'm more perverted than psygnisfive, i'm just more shy about it 21:02:14 That's still better than "don't mind if I do". 21:02:17 oklopol: you so aren't 21:02:26 we'll see 21:02:33 ...shall we now 8| 21:02:36 I hope that was a pun 21:02:40 your big perversion is MAYBE scat. 21:02:42 i really need to read -> 21:02:54 is that so? 21:02:56 You both need to publish your purity test results, that's a good starting point at least. 21:03:06 or atleast thats all you'll admit to. 21:03:07 psygnisfive: you have no idea about my perversions 21:03:23 and by admit i mean reply at all. :P 21:03:27 and i haven't admitted anything. 21:03:37 i want you to admit EVERYTHING! i want to know it all. 21:03:38 :3 21:04:12 reading, if you really wanna, you can be more perverted, i was just trying to make oerjan feel better 21:04:25 dont. oerjan deserves nothing. 21:05:10 * oerjan cries 21:05:20 psygnisfive is mean! 21:05:31 BLAME TUSHO. HE MAKED ME ANGRY. GRR. 21:05:44 normally i'd give you marshmallows and hugs but nooooo 21:09:02 back 21:23:44 hey bitch. 21:24:57 no. 21:27:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 21:30:33 no, not hey? 21:42:47 tusho: closures in objective-C, http://www.macresearch.org/cocoa-scientists-part-xxvii-getting-closure-objective-c 21:42:54 Deewiant: yes, seen it 21:42:56 like, 5 days ago. 21:42:57 on reddit. 21:43:05 great 21:43:07 my toying about was inspired by that 21:43:13 ah 21:43:16 i think my {} syntax is nicer than theirs, though 21:43:24 and their type syntax is almost the same as funtion pointers 21:43:28 thus still has the problem i mentioned 21:43:34 also, theirs are less flexible regarding modifying vars 21:44:09 i commented on it :D 21:44:29 they unfortunately conflate a number of issues in that article. 21:44:36 or they atleast dont adequately distinguish them. 21:45:03 yes, i know 21:45:06 that;s not the point 21:45:08 the feature is what i saw 21:45:22 Last week, Chris Lattner — who manages the Clang, LLVM, and GCC groups at Apple — announced that work was well underway to bring ‘blocks’ to the GCC and Clang compilers. ‘So what?’, I hear you ask, ‘My kid has been using blocks since he was 9 months old.’ Fair point, but maybe not these blocks. 21:45:28 ... 21:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and it's wrong. 21:46:18 oklopol: welcome to "shitty programming sites" 21:54:26 i do think there was something magical in "Fair point, but maybe not these blocks.", but otherwise, that was a god-awful joke :) 21:55:43 ::plays with oklopols blocks:: 21:56:51 oklopol: it seems that the more theoretical a scientist is the better jokes he makes 21:57:01 see: oerjan's terrible puns, his being a mathematician 21:57:44 mathematics is almost purely theoretical 21:57:53 surely you mean theoretical ~ worse jokes then 21:59:03 psygnisfive: but oerjan's terrible puns are greart 21:59:08 much better than that blocks joke 21:59:14 which is on a science site not a mathematics site 22:00:09 well, in books about game-programming you find stuff like "this is a good thing.... NOT!", ai - a modern approach has had like 3 jokes, and i've actually laughed out loud once 22:00:44 so then.. oerjans puns arent terrible they're great? D: 22:00:46 im confused! :( 22:02:05 terrible and great don't really differ much in meaning 22:02:21 terrible is bad, great is good. 22:02:35 psygnisfive: no. 22:02:38 yes? 22:02:40 oerjan's puns are terrible and great. 22:02:45 D: 22:02:47 im confused! 22:02:51 you confuse me! 22:02:52 psygnisfive: you are using logic 22:02:53 stop that 22:03:00 in what sense are they terrible? 22:03:18 if you need explaining after reading one... 22:03:30 terrible like unfunny painful and stupid, or terrible in the way thats funny? 22:03:39 :( 22:03:40 terrible in a "oh god, that joke was awful, ahahaahah" 22:03:48 and the "ahahahahahah" bit leads to the "great" bit. 22:03:50 funny in its awfulness. ok. 22:03:58 as opposed to just awful. 22:04:26 this channel should be more o-ful 22:04:28 o 22:04:28 o 22:04:28 o 22:04:31 oko 22:04:36 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 22:04:39 no psygnisfive 22:04:42 we were doing an oko tower. 22:04:44 o 22:04:53 an oko tower? 22:04:55 yes 22:04:56 like this 22:04:56 o 22:04:57 oko 22:04:58 okoko 22:04:59 okoko 22:05:01 er 22:05:05 fucked up there :D 22:05:05 o 22:05:06 oko 22:05:07 okoko 22:05:08 okokoko 22:05:10 okokokoko 22:05:12 okokokokoko 22:05:14 okokokokokoko 22:05:16 okokokokokokoko 22:05:18 okokokokokokokoko 22:05:20 okokokokokokokokoko 22:05:22 okokokokokokokoko 22:05:24 okokokokokokoko 22:05:26 okokokokokoko 22:05:28 okokokokoko 22:05:30 okokokoko 22:05:32 okokoko 22:05:34 okoko 22:05:36 oko 22:05:38 no. 22:05:38 o 22:05:40 oklopol invented them on his own, then people started doing them collaboratively. 22:05:42 we haven't seen as many lately 22:05:53 we werent doing that at all. 22:06:08 oh yes we were 22:06:09 right oklopol 22:06:10 also, oklopol, you're insane. 22:06:10 :P 22:06:14 <3u 22:06:42 i've invented oko *towers* perhaps, but this is not the birthplace of oko, and i'm not the inventor of it 22:07:24 oklopol: i imagine it came from #vjn? 22:07:32 well, I claim that since #vjn is apparently a finnish place 22:07:34 yes, but no one there really remembers how it started 22:07:36 and there are only 2 people in finland 22:07:40 :P 22:07:40 that the chances that YOU invented oko 22:07:45 as one of the two people in finland 22:07:47 and thus in #vjn 22:07:49 it's more likely coolness invented it. 22:07:51 is extraordinarily high. 22:07:55 but we don't know for sure 22:07:55 oklopol: you are coolness 22:07:58 he's the other guy 22:08:08 no ,the other guy is Deewiant & fizzie 22:08:13 oh, right 22:08:19 sometimes i get confused myself. 22:08:19 and the rest of that crowd of #esoteric 22:08:24 #vjn is just you, i think 22:08:27 :P 22:08:33 well there's a swedish guy on the chan 22:08:44 actually not anymore 22:08:49 that was AnMaster 22:09:32 #vjn? 22:09:58 vjn basically means me and my friends 22:10:05 although we're a registered group 22:10:11 oklopol: all your friends are you, though 22:10:14 we've just established that 22:10:19 so vjn is a synonym for oklopol. 22:10:20 tusho: that's a bit beside the point 22:10:23 oklopol is a registered group. 22:10:28 containing: oklopol 22:10:34 russel is spinning in his grave 22:10:37 yes, spinning 22:10:41 well physically maybe, but it's better to think of my personas as separate people, especially on irc 22:10:47 well 22:10:55 still, oko is a kind of metaphysical spiritual thing 22:11:00 so it makes sense to say you invented it 22:11:04 even if it was another aspect of you 22:11:07 we discovered an interesting bug in the finnish registered group system 22:11:13 a group can join another group 22:11:25 so it can join itself, as that's not explicitly disallowed 22:11:45 we can immediately see there are all kinds of fun infinite loops 22:11:49 oklopol: do it 22:11:52 for instance @ voting 22:12:07 well we were thinking more like making a few more groups, then joining in a chain 22:12:11 so it's less obvious 22:12:40 i need to watch some stuff -> 22:13:47 did russell die before godel proved incompleteness? 22:15:17 psygnisfive: dunno 22:18:24 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:21:02 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving."). 22:30:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 23:15:29 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 2008-09-04: 00:00:14 -!- Corun_ has joined. 00:00:45 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:07:54 v 00:08:40 oh man 00:08:42 this pizza 00:08:45 is amazin 00:08:46 g 00:15:08 sleep night tired tired -> 00:25:31 -!- tusho has quit. 00:31:27 lmfao 00:31:33 i like oklopol is tired, so tusho leaves. 00:31:34 :D 00:43:34 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:26:33 -!- Corun_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:40:35 -!- olsner has joined. 03:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | make sure u add some easter eggs. 04:17:00 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 05:28:31 02:31:30 psygnisfive: i like oklopol is tired, so tusho leaves. <<< what does this sentence? 05:28:44 (sentence was the verb there.) 05:45:36 It sentences you to be liked by psygnisfive. 05:45:44 A fate worse than death, maybe? 05:47:48 quite so indeed very much, yes. 05:48:11 gotta leave, time for some design and analysis of algorithms 05:50:24 now -> 05:50:25 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 05:57:05 i like how* 05:57:12 oh, i see. 05:57:16 lame oklopol. :( 06:03:16 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:16:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:37:25 -!- oklopol has joined. 06:37:37 this guy is so clueless 06:45:40 what? 06:46:43 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 06:47:29 Your interactions, they seem non-progressive. 06:48:08 :D 06:48:27 that was the funniest thing in days 06:49:34 quitting jokes are always funny 07:02:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:03:48 optbot: a veritable programming omelet 07:03:49 oerjan: i see 07:04:14 *omelette 07:08:58 Can you make a programming omelette without breaking a few languages? 07:09:16 only, as i implied, by having enough easter eggs 07:10:39 if your languages _are_ your easter eggs, you are probably in trouble 07:12:50 i guess this is one place such trouble is to be expected 07:13:09 For some reason I though it was oklopol you were chatting with. 07:13:30 but we already established oklopol is you 07:13:42 well you did while i was away 07:19:47 -!- shachaf has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:20:31 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 07:25:00 oerjan: nono, fizzie is the other one 07:25:24 not enough languages have easter eggs 07:25:32 well, probably even interpreters 07:25:36 that may be true 07:29:20 well there's a swedish guy on the chan 07:29:20 actually not anymore 07:29:20 that was AnMaster 07:29:24 what channel? 07:29:37 There's one in MS's QBasic, apparently. 07:30:12 it must be hard to be a swedish guy in MS's QBasic 07:30:29 Yes, I don't envy him. 07:31:22 um? I never used qbasic 07:31:45 in fact I never ever coded in BASIC 07:32:31 of course not, you just live there 07:32:46 hard to code from the _inside_ of a PL 07:32:56 I began with AppleScript on OS 7, not with BASIC 07:32:58 unless it is really good at reflection 07:33:01 :P 07:33:19 applescript would be better for a swede, i hear it can be translated 07:33:26 it can? 07:33:30 maybe 07:33:36 never checked that 07:33:50 AnMaster: #vjn 07:33:58 oklopol, ah, never been there 07:34:03 so must have been someone else 07:34:17 wouldn't you have to understand finnish for that? 07:35:10 well I don't understand Finnish 07:36:50 AnMaster: it was a joke 07:37:01 also you don't need to know finnish there 07:37:07 too early in the morning for that 07:38:08 yaaaarrrr 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:21:20 -!- oklofok has joined. 08:21:26 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 08:35:38 -!- oerjan has quit ("You are no match for my punny weapons"). 08:42:24 Deewiant, about new thread in t not being moved in F98... Well that depends on at what point you do your "move ip forward": 08:42:34 -!- jix has joined. 08:42:44 for ip in ips { 08:42:50 move forward; 08:42:54 execute instruction 08:42:55 } 08:42:59 or if you reverse those 09:19:23 fizzie, I assume that PPC you tested on got inet_pton(), right? 09:33:08 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 09:33:54 Sure. 09:38:06 -!- Corun has joined. 09:44:27 fizzie, you soon won't need that patch to src/fingerprints/SOCK/SOCK.c then 09:44:51 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 09:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i'll do that. 10:03:24 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 10:17:29 AnMaster: yes, but it 10:17:55 's fairly obvious to me that it's meant to be done such that you execute first 10:18:06 because you start at (0,0) 10:18:14 and you're meant to execute that 10:18:55 Also the spec: "instructions encountered by each IP are dealth with -- and each IP *then* moves as specified" 10:19:05 Dealt, not dealth. 10:20:07 It sure sounds to me like the new thread should execute that 't'. 10:21:01 it's not impossible to make useful programs even that way (just p something other than a t on top of the t) 10:21:10 but I doubt it was the intent anyways 10:21:31 and I think you'd spawn a minimum of 2 new threads that way 10:21:47 Well, you could have one additional thread doing the 'p'ing. 10:22:36 The one which is executed just after the original thread hitting the 't'. 10:23:11 Would be quite tricky to time it right, though. 10:23:45 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 10:25:11 no, I think it can't be done 10:25:18 IP 0 hits t 10:25:24 -- tick 10:25:28 IP 1 hits t 10:25:30 IP 0 hits p 10:25:33 -- tick 10:25:36 we have 3 IPs now. 10:26:01 Yes, but if you already earlier have generated the IP to do that p. 10:26:28 So that it executes during the same tick when IP 0 hits the t. 10:28:48 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:29:07 yeah, but you need to have hit a t to do that anyway :-) 10:29:23 Yes, but only the first t needs to generate two new threads. 10:29:38 And the "spare" one can then do the 'p'ing for all the rest of the 't's. :p 10:31:48 It's still saner than the "all threads share the common stack" concurrency there was in either Befunge-96 or Funge-97. Although I don't remember where I read that from. 10:40:17 fizzie, I never seen befunge-96 or funge-97 specs 10:40:29 was never able to find them 10:41:22 I can't seem to find them right now either, but I have a strong recollection that somewhere I've seen it mentioned that in concurrent Befunge-96 the stack is shared between threads. 10:42:10 hm 10:42:12 bbiab 10:44:06 Heh, the only reference I could find right now was #esoteric log for 2004-05-27, where I said the same thing, and didn't remember whether it was '96 or '97 then either. 10:46:56 I guess it is possible I have imagined the whole thing. Maybe it was on the esolang mailing list, I don't know where my archives of that are. 11:06:53 fizzie, SOCK and the -W flags bit now fixed 11:06:59 the LDFLAGS: not yet 11:07:03 might take some time 11:15:15 Yes, I haven't had the time to look at that yet either. 11:34:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:35:28 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:03:29 -!- tusho has joined. 12:16:17 -!- kar8nga has joined. 12:26:29 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:40:11 d 12:42:33 -!- ais523_ has joined. 12:45:35 hi ais523 12:45:38 wt 12:45:40 hi tusho 12:45:40 have you been here as ais523? 12:45:42 if so, for how long? 12:45:42 still not slept? 12:45:48 no, I did sleep 12:45:56 and I wasn't here yesterday 12:46:02 although I didn't spend all yesterday asleep 12:46:14 I spent much of it working on the linker for gcc-bf 12:46:15 ais523: so how long has this been here? 12:46:24 were you actually here until ais523_ joined? 12:46:30 if not, who is ais523 12:46:33 ah, I'm ais523 12:46:39 I didn't even notice my nick has changed 12:46:39 ok 12:46:48 ais523_: so how long have you been here? 12:46:51 since 12:03 at least 12:46:54 since that's when I joined :P 12:46:57 since 11:34 UK time 12:47:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 12:47:04 weird 12:47:05 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 12:47:07 i normally beat you these days 12:47:34 I decided to come in early, needed to beat a deadline on Agora, and there was lots of noise due to work outside our house anyway 12:47:52 :) 12:48:21 incidentally, I think I may be writing the world's first linker that's written in Perl and uses regexen for just about everything 12:48:37 ... 12:48:40 x_x 12:48:46 also I'm probably the first person who just mapped ar to tar and has .a == .tar.gz for object file libraries 12:48:59 .a is just ar 12:49:03 yes, I know 12:49:04 oh, i see 12:49:12 ais523: why not just ar 12:49:14 ar is just a regular archive format 12:49:15 like tar 12:49:19 and i dunno why you need gzip 12:49:22 tusho: yes, I know, but I'm storing large amounts of text 12:49:26 the object files are written in asm 12:49:26 okay, true 12:49:28 ais523: wait 12:49:31 .ar.gz 12:49:32 that's more esoteric. 12:49:37 yes, it would be 12:49:42 do it 12:49:42 :D 12:49:45 does .ar have a gunzip and pipe to stdout option, though 12:49:54 ais523: pipe to something in /tmp 12:50:04 and just do it in two stages 12:50:08 tusho: yuck, libc is about 3 megabytes on my system 12:50:17 I don't want to create a 3MB temporary file every compile 12:50:22 ais523: pipe to /dev/stdout 12:50:23 or whatever it is 12:50:27 something like /dev/fd/0 12:50:31 hmm... might work 12:50:36 ais523: then | that 12:50:39 and both those names are correct, except stdout is /dev/fd/1 12:50:47 stdin is 0 and stderr is 2 12:50:48 ah, use /dev/stdout for clearness then 12:50:52 (esoteric clearness is amusing) 12:51:02 I use /dev/fd/ when golfing because it's 1 char shorter 12:51:09 ha 12:51:43 (it's the only way I know to do input in m4, use directives to change the syntax of the language appropriately then use include /dev/fd/0 to include the input) 12:52:56 I only need to implement close _execve _exit _fork_r fread fstat fstat64 fwrite getpid isatty kill link lseek open rename sbrk stat strtod unlink write now to get newlib fully working, it can implement the whole of libc in terms of those 12:53:11 _fork_r I'll use the DJGPP method I think 12:53:25 (although possibly I could write a Brainfork version with genuine forking?) 12:53:36 ais523: no, no 12:53:41 make forking work in brainfuck 12:53:52 (for processes A and B just execute instructions as ABABABABAB etc) 12:54:02 tusho: that would make things more complicated (although not excessively more complicated) so I'll do it later 12:54:13 ais523: yay, i like "I'll do it later" 12:54:15 the main problem being that I'd need multiple stacks and multiple sets of registers 12:54:18 it signifies that things will be crazier in the future 12:54:21 tusho: once I've got the core working 12:54:25 :D 12:54:46 hmm... something must be wrong with my newlib dependencies script 12:54:47 ais523: well, you've just pwned GregorR in like a fifth of the time 12:54:49 :D 12:55:07 I'm reasonably sure it's read/write it needs not fread/fwrite 12:55:14 i mean, c2bf took months 12:55:17 because it does all the stdio streams stuff itself 12:55:18 and can barely do anything 12:55:38 tusho: probably more efficient than this, though, stdio overhead is massive 12:56:10 ais523: but his was just a syntax layer over bf. 12:56:14 it didn't even have stdio 12:56:28 well I'm even trying to get setjmp and varargs working 12:56:44 if you join #esoteric-blah, I'll paste you my setjmp and longjmp there 12:56:56 gcc has __builtin_setjmp and __builtin_longjmp which also work but are slower 12:57:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Excess Flood). 12:58:02 l m a o 12:58:07 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:58:48 ugh, freenode things 96 lines is flooding 12:59:13 ais523 12:59:15 your client SUCKS 12:59:22 every good client automatically rate-limits 12:59:44 tusho: Konqueror warns instead 12:59:46 but it warns even for 2-line pastes 12:59:50 konqueror? 12:59:50 :P 12:59:53 itym konversation. 13:00:02 but yea it should do both 13:00:04 warn+rate limit 13:01:18 ais523: you are batshit insane 13:01:34 yes, I do 13:02:30 ais523: was that purposefully nonsensical? 13:05:00 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:05:17 tusho: am I alright? 13:05:28 ais523 appears to be able to receive messages but not send them atm 13:05:29 ais523_: what 13:05:34 yes 13:05:36 i can see 13:05:50 ais523_: Can you see this? 13:05:52 ais523's sending too, but doesn't seem to be showing up in-channel 13:06:08 ais523_: probably because it's flooding #esoteric-blah 13:06:10 tusho: yes, so did ais523 13:06:21 yes, probably 13:06:59 oh well, using netcat for a bit is a nice change 13:07:15 how far did ais523 get in #esoteric-blah? 13:07:26 I posted the whole of longjmp in #esoteric-blah, anyway, a bit at a time 13:07:38 that should give you some idea of what ABI looks like 13:07:54 tusho: that took me about 10 minutes to write 13:07:54 yay, ais523's coming through now, just very slowly 13:07:58 ABI isn't that hard, it's like writing in PEBBLE 13:08:06 no 13:08:10 I mean, asm looks bad, but it's not that bad when you get used to it 13:08:12 this should give me some record ping times 13:08:14 especially if you invented the command-set yourself 13:08:35 ais523: here is what i saw 13:08:38 -!- jix has joined. 13:08:40 -!- oklopol has joined. 13:08:56 ais523: you are batshit insane 13:08:56 yes, I do 13:08:56 ais523: was that purposefully nonsensical? 13:09:08 your lag results in dada. 13:09:28 wait, you won't have been able to see that 13:09:40 what 13:09:42 'yes, I do 13:09:43 '? 13:09:45 because i did. 13:09:57 ais523 just said "tusho: that was badly out of sync, I thought I was replying to an entirely different comment" 13:10:01 ah 13:10:02 yes 13:10:03 i know 13:10:07 that's why i said lag->data 13:10:09 :P 13:10:19 yes, this is confusing... 13:10:49 Freenode should really give some clue as to what a sensible flood rate is... 13:11:16 ais523_: your client should adequately ratelimit it 13:11:18 get a better one 13:11:30 that's annoying, I like Konversation in other ways 13:11:35 even colloquy ratelimits 13:11:38 even though it has all sorts of weird quirks 13:11:46 ais523_: Perhaps there is a plugin for konversation to do it. 13:12:00 it's nicer to use than chatzilla which I used to use on the SunOS systems here 13:12:13 (anything to get a nice Unix command-set rather than Windows...) 13:12:38 ais523_: you do not respond to VERSION 13:13:08 tusho: yes I do, just very slowly 13:13:14 oh, ha 13:13:35 tusho: I wouldn't be surprised if ais523 wasn't responding at the moment 13:14:32 tusho: pinging me every second is annoying, it's hard to type with CTCPs turning up in the middle of what I'm typing 13:14:36 ais523_: you oughta respond to my pings 13:14:42 tusho: I did 13:14:57 I sent them all in the same CTCP, if your client can't handle that it's its problem 13:15:20 ais523_: TIME != PIN 13:15:20 There is the flood-control algorithm of RFC2813; not everyone might do it like that, but it should be reasonably safe if you stay well below that limit. 13:15:22 G 13:15:24 hmm 13:15:26 not showing up here 13:15:28 ais523_: Is that in the spec? 13:15:38 ais523_ tries to come up with a way to do /ignore using grep 13:15:46 can you see this? 13:15:49 yes 13:15:50 me: ping 13:15:51 tusho: yes, but nobody handles ctcps except at the start of a line 13:15:57 tusho: yes 13:16:24 yay, ais523 just received the pings it sent 11 minutes ago 13:16:30 tusho: that was badly out of sync 13:16:32 tusho: yes I can 13:16:34 I thought I was replying to an entirely different comment 13:16:51 [13:16] [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 776 seconds. 13:17:08 my longest ever genuine ping time! 13:17:26 tusho: I can't tell a CTCP from a /msg over netcat 13:17:35 so I'm treating all your CTCPs like /msgs at the moment 13:17:38 ais523_: i'll put CTCP in front of them 13:17:43 alternatively: cat -v, dude 13:18:25 yay, ais523 is working again 13:18:26 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:19:03 hmm 13:19:14 i am going to make a shell client that just seds and greps an nc 13:19:39 it'll even do nick highlighting 13:19:44 tusho: that's almost a good idea, responding to pings is the hardest thing to do there 13:19:47 s/$nick/\7$nick/ 13:19:51 or whatever 13:20:00 unless you're retyping the pings by hand 13:20:17 on Freenode you can prevent the server pinging you by pinging it proactively, that doesn't work on other networks though 13:20:21 i need to call it something which reflects how much it hates you 13:20:23 'bastard' 13:20:32 'git' 13:20:39 ais523_: yes, that was my joke 13:20:44 also on Bitch-X 13:20:56 btw what do you think of setjmp.S and longjmp.S? 13:21:03 ais523_: i don't get them 13:21:04 P 13:21:05 I would just use .s but newlib prefers .S for some reason 13:21:07 :P 13:21:27 -!- ais523_ has quit ("have I been connected with this long enough to get a genuine quit message?"). 13:21:38 yes I had apparently 13:22:17 Isn't .S gcc's way of specifying "assembler source but with C preprocessor in front of it"? 13:22:30 ah, that's it 13:22:34 newlib was using the C preprocessor 13:22:39 bastard's slogan will be "fuck goddamn" 13:22:42 "bastard: fuck goddamn" 13:23:11 cpp would be useful for writing ABI really, it can be very repetitive 13:23:18 no mov instruction for register to register you see 13:23:24 it's all done with transfer-additions 13:23:36 which is basically [->+<] 13:24:27 ais523: have you seen my collection of fungot poetry 13:24:28 tusho: i have ideas but i am fnord 13:24:37 there's one right there! 13:24:43 and I haven't seen it collected, no 13:24:58 here ya go: 13:25:11 ais523: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1192758 13:25:23 you can see the progression there, short, brief poetry to verbose yarns with incredibly long lines that are syntaxless 13:25:28 and then a slight return into minimalism 13:25:39 fungot's last line suggests his new poetry will be incredibly tiny, one line works 13:25:39 tusho: not sure if that makes any sense 13:26:29 wait, I thought you said the last line there... 13:26:32 not paying much attention 13:26:40 :D 13:26:50 "not quite sure why you would use car that many times. basically everyone seems to think that i shall never hear a poem frightful as a bear, that keeps pooping primes." 13:26:52 is just brilliance 13:27:00 what the fuck you are doing? /leave scheme /join java? is there such a thing 13:27:07 probably my favourite line out of the lot 13:27:48 i like "one of my formally fnord questions consists of ordering 25 functions by their asymptotic behaviour. :(" 13:27:52 Huh, the prime number pooping bear site has disappeared? :/ It was a Finnish site and everything. 13:28:08 fizzie: aw, i was hoping it thought of a bear that poops primes by itself 13:28:17 counting to ten modulo two before punching him? <--- if only everyone did that, "I'm going to punch you when I reach ten. 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1..." the world would be a more peaceful place 13:28:18 and then decided that a poem can be as frightful as that 13:28:26 and how people think that he'd never see a poem as frightful 13:28:36 ais523: haha, totally 13:28:48 Nope, there was a website with a picture of a bear, plus a Javascript primality tester, and the prime numbers fell out of the bear's... rear end, you know. 13:28:58 fizzie: that is... beautiful 13:29:32 I like the asymptotic behaviour quote too though 13:29:42 ais523: probably just a verbatim sentence 13:29:44 even though it's likely verbatim from /scheme apart from the fnord 13:29:46 with one rare word replaced with fnord 13:29:51 s/\//#/ 13:29:58 ais523: /leave scheme /join java 13:30:06 http://informationnation.blogspot.com/2005/01/numbers-up-wazoo.html has a picture of it, but the link is dead. 13:30:17 tusho: I already posted that, I'll post it again though because I like it so much 13:30:23 ais523: yes, i know 13:30:25 what the fuck you are doing? /leave scheme /join java? is there such a thing 13:30:25 ais523: it allows sideeffects. 13:30:33 fizzie: wow. 13:30:50 fizzie: is it in Wayback? 13:31:03 Hmm, maybe. 13:31:07 ais523: yes 13:31:13 http://web.archive.org/web/20061209081231/http://members.surfeu.fi/kklaine/tpnsb/poopbear.html 13:31:15 needs IE, it seems 13:31:21 beh 13:31:31 http://www.primenumbershittingbear.com/ is squatted 13:31:35 wait, I need 2 support to beh nowadays, don't I? 13:31:41 tusho: wtf would someone squat that/ 13:31:55 ais523: it was registered, apparently 13:31:56 but 13:32:01 bots scan the 'recently expired' list 13:32:04 and basically buy all of them 13:32:11 then sell them for ridiculous prices 13:32:15 thus fucking over anyone who forgets to renew 13:32:36 anyway, even though that wayback link is from 2006 13:32:39 the news update is from 2003 13:32:44 it'll have been squatted for years 13:32:51 well, some clever domain name registrar could make millions by registering a huge number of sites to themselves for a couple of days, then putting them on the recently expired list 13:33:02 and getting a fortune for all the bots buying from them 13:33:12 ais523: probably illegal 13:33:14 brb 13:33:25 I think it ran in at least some firefox version; the archive.org version seems a bit brokened though. 13:35:12 And actually the "asymptotic behaviour" quote was a #esoteric comment by SimonRC in 2006-12-03: the fnord is "assessed". 13:36:51 * ais523 puts a fungot quote in eir sig 13:36:52 ais523: but i think there's a simple way of minimizing cache misses otherwise 13:36:55 -!- ais523 has left (?). 13:36:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:37:31 probably better take it out again, though, it could offend someone in theory 13:37:59 ais523: so? 13:38:00 I replaced it with a 99 bottles of beer program 13:38:05 written in HQ9+ so it fits in a sig 13:38:27 the only people it'd offend are complete prudes 13:38:28 and who cares? 13:38:42 fizzie: assessed is surely more common 13:38:44 than that 13:38:46 well, I do to some extent, I don't like offending prudes because I may need favours from them later 13:39:18 wtf? someone turned one of the reader comments from an MFD comic into a Flash game 13:39:36 @logreading prudes: now playing wolfgang amadeus mozart - leck mich im arsch 13:39:39 tusho: Not in my logs: 13:39:41 fis@hactar:~/irclogs$ grep assessed freenode/#esoteric/* freenode/#scheme/* ircnet/#douglasadams/* | wc -l 13:39:44 1 13:39:48 fizzie: wow 13:39:55 fizzie: 'twill be a lot more than 1 now... 13:40:23 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Magenta-Kong.aspx 13:40:25 Well, it _is_ common _now_. That log-place doesn't get updated except by manual rsyncing from the actual host I run my client on every now and then. 13:40:44 I don't have Flash installed here because it seems to be the biggest security hole in all 3 major OSs, which is saying something 13:41:04 Now it's 4, so if I ever rebuild that language model again, fungot will have learned a new word. Yay. 13:41:05 fizzie: so no exlusive or either. must be all right if i guess that 13:41:07 ais523: why would anyone respect mfd like that 13:41:23 tusho: bashing MfD has a really strong following nowadays 13:41:29 ais523: but that's not bashing 13:41:32 the MfD-basher community really churn out some interesting stuff 13:42:00 if I ever meet mark bowytz in person... 13:42:01 >:E 13:42:22 ...and they're allowing text comments on it! 13:42:30 are they? 13:42:36 pics or it didn't happen 13:42:38 (arf arf arf) 13:42:38 knowing Alex I expected em to allow only comments in the form of Flash games 13:43:40 [[Sorry folks - no MFD Extra from me today - no way am I going do anything that might steal Matt C.'s spotlight (I know you're all disappointed) ]] 13:43:46 oh no, mark 13:43:49 it's okay 13:43:52 you take a nice good holiday 13:44:16 anyway MfD is a lot better nowadays than it used to be, which isn't saying much 13:44:54 Note: There is no working Chromium-based browser on Linux. Although many Chromium submodules build under Linux and a few unit tests pass, all that runs is a command-line "all tests pass" executable. 13:45:13 ais523: yes 13:45:13 ? 13:45:14 in other words, nothing works except the testsuite, which reports that everything is fine... 13:45:18 ais523: er, no 13:45:20 all the internals work 13:45:24 there just isn't a frontend UI 13:45:35 yes, I thought it was funnier when I put it that way, though 13:45:46 :p 13:46:08 ais523: oh, and they fixed the eula 13:46:12 you can try it under wine now. 13:46:40 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:47:04 You need a JavaScript-capable browser to download this software. Click here for instructions on how to enable JavaScript in your browser. 13:47:05 ais523: and yes, the custom window chrome is ugly but they actually had to do it, the default XP chrome didn't let them paint in the right place 13:47:12 the vista chrome lets them, though: 13:47:13 http://www.winsupersite.com/images/showcase/google_chrome_beta_07.jpg 13:47:15 so it looks a lot nicer 13:47:20 and apparently os x lets them too 13:47:53 ais523: probably for their OS detection code 13:47:55 still, silly 13:48:42 tusho: you can paint outside the client area on Windows, I did it for my decimal clock program 13:48:52 ais523: there's some specific reason that i don't know 13:48:52 all sorts of weird things break if you aren't careful though 13:48:57 but they couldn't get it to work right 13:49:08 and i'm going to go out on a limb here and say that google probably know, ais523 13:49:10 and there was a problem anyway 13:49:17 Even with Google's superintelligent space monkeys, they couldn't make it work! 13:49:21 it seems...likely. 13:49:33 tusho: my guess is that's what they are doing, but it overwrites XP's theming and so they have to simulate it themselves 13:49:42 yes 13:50:52 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 13:51:19 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 13:54:39 tusho: I didn't agree to the EULA in the end, I read the source of the webpage to see where it downloaded from and just downloaded directly 13:54:55 ais523: you've agreed to it anyway 13:55:04 all stuff has a clause saying that by downloading & using the software you agree to the eula 13:55:07 that was after telling Konqueror to pretend to be IE6 so that I could get at the Windows download 13:55:11 tusho: yes but I didn't agree to that clause 13:55:17 ais523: it's always outside of the eula 13:55:21 in some other area of fineprint 13:55:22 sorry. 13:55:29 tusho: well I didn't agree to that fineprint either 13:55:34 ais523: you can't do that 13:55:43 they only let you download it on the condition that you accept them 13:57:18 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:57:27 ais523_: mibbit in chrome? 13:57:31 no 13:57:35 Konversation inside sandbox 13:57:45 ais523_: your username and realname is chromewine 13:57:48 I'm not the sort of person who runs random executables with access to everything... 13:58:00 tusho: yes, that's the sandbox name 13:58:05 ais523_: ah. :P 13:58:13 this has Internet access and not much else 13:58:22 I figured that a browser would want Internet access... 13:58:26 ais523_: does it have the neccessary windows libs for chrome... 13:58:58 probably not 13:59:56 nah, it doesn't run at all under Wine 14:00:00 just exits instantly 14:00:05 Google probably check for that, knowing them 14:00:10 anyway, off to delete the sandbox... 14:00:13 no 14:00:15 it works for some people 14:00:17 in wine 14:00:18 i've seen screenshots 14:00:21 -!- ais523_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:00:23 so they definitely don't check for wine 14:00:27 why would they, anyway? 14:00:31 i don't see how that's a googley-thing to do 14:00:50 because they know it wouldn't work and don't want a massive crash? 14:01:03 then how come it works for loads of people 14:01:14 probably I have Wine set up wrong for it 14:01:24 or they got some separate Windows libraries for it from somewhere 14:04:37 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:04:58 hmm 14:05:53 * tusho the hard part with bastard is making it talk back to nc 14:05:55 er 14:05:56 the hard part with bastard is making it talk back to nc 14:06:31 apparently Chrome has 1% of the browser market already 14:06:34 which is pretty impressive 14:06:40 wow 14:06:48 that means it's beating all of Linux combined... 14:07:03 lmao 14:07:56 IE7 at 46.8%, IE6 at 25.2%, IE8 at 0.22% 14:08:36 Firefox at 19.7%, Safari at 6.4%, Opera at 0.74% are the other ones used often enough to show up on the statistics 14:11:26 OK, this is great, apparently the major UI guideline behind Chrome is "Content not chrome", which makes sense, but contradicts their name somewhat... 14:14:22 ah, I am still online, occasionally I drop off the Internet and don't notice for hours, still typing random monologues into IRC... 14:14:54 ais523: the point is that the web app provides the chrome 14:15:01 and the browser stays out of the way 14:15:01 well, yes 14:15:06 so Google Chrome lets you access the "real" chrome 14:15:07 I agree with the design principle 14:15:14 it's just that the name's a bit ironic.... 14:15:17 ais523: i'm just explaining how the name is actually fitting 14:15:29 they're helping the user see the _real_ chrome 14:15:32 is the idea 14:15:57 such as a page which looks like a normal black-and-white unstyled webpage whose background changes colour when you mouse over the links? 14:16:05 yes 14:16:06 :) 14:17:02 hmm... one evil-ish thing Google are doing with Chrome is basing it on a BSD-licenced open-source project and then distributing a binary that's not compiled from the sources they give 14:17:15 ais523: how do you know it's not compiled from those sources... 14:17:16 which is really annoying to people like me, it makes it so hard to just look at things and fix thigns 14:17:26 tusho: well there are changes in it somewhere 14:17:30 ais523: how do you know 14:17:31 or it would just have the same name 14:17:36 er, no 14:17:46 google tends to give its oepn source projects different names 14:17:47 they could have just changed a few string constants, but given that they're going to all that trouble they probably changed more 14:17:48 to the actual products 14:17:53 ais523: no... 14:18:04 chrome IS built from the chromium sources 14:18:16 but with modifications, almost certaibly 14:18:25 the chromium sources will be involved somewhere, obviously 14:18:25 ais523: eagerly awaiting evidence 14:18:31 none given so far, just a blanket assertation 14:18:36 currently not believing. 14:18:44 I don't know for certain, I just think it's a lot more likely than the alternative 14:18:51 what. that they open sourced the browser? 14:18:55 ZOMG IMPOSSIBLE 14:19:16 tusho: that the non-open-source download with an EULA before you can even download it is exactly the same as an open-sourced BSD version 14:19:30 why bother putting an EULA on an entirely open-source browser? 14:19:35 ais523: um, firefox 3. 14:20:00 http://www.toad.com/gnu/sysadmin/index.html#firefox-eula-sux 14:20:48 *CONSPICUOUS SILENCE* 14:20:57 tusho: I've never seen an EULA on Firefox, obviously there's one in that tarball 14:21:04 ais523: no, there is 14:21:05 but why when everyone redistributing it just takes it out? 14:21:09 it's just that distros pre-install it 14:21:10 so you never see it. 14:21:16 tusho: nor agree to it 14:21:19 which is the important point here 14:21:20 ais523: not the point. 14:21:25 "why bother putting an EULA on an entirely open-source browser?" 14:21:26 is the point, definitely 14:21:27 firefox 3 has one 14:21:31 ergo your argument for it being modified because of that 14:21:32 is ridiculous 14:21:50 well I think putting one on Firefox 3 is also ridiculous, because anyone could just edit it out 14:21:59 ais523: yes, but are you saying that the firefox binaries are modified too? 14:22:03 no, no you're not 14:22:09 so you have no argument 14:22:23 I'm going by name, really, here... 14:22:37 yes, because google always do something evil because they are a corporation 14:22:40 oh wait...mozilla corporation 14:22:50 and I would have a priori suspected Firefox to be modified if it showed me an EULA... 14:23:03 ais523: why don't you ask in #chromium? 14:23:08 Real chrome developers are in there. Tons of them. 14:23:10 They're opped. 14:23:11 interesting idea, presumably it exists by now 14:23:15 it does 14:23:20 like 100 members. 14:23:22 and all the ops are chrome developers. 14:24:19 well I'm there now, reading the FAQ first before I say anything though 14:25:55 I learn Web manners on Usenet... 14:25:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:26:08 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:26:55 ah, I found Wine's entry on Chrome, there's a lot of magic needed to make it work under Wine 14:27:23 ais523: are you going to ask #chromium now? 14:27:32 may as well 14:28:35 I asked, no response yet 14:28:37 I'll wait a while 14:28:47 you asked 60 seconds ago 14:28:55 are you purposefully being impatient? 14:29:00 yes, some channels respond instantly but apparently it wasn't one of those 14:29:06 there you go. 14:29:09 I'm just classifying channels by wait length 14:29:13 just the copyrighted artwork 14:29:22 hmm... so it's a Firefox/Iceweasel-type distinction 14:29:31 no, I believe Chromium is built as "Chrome" too 14:29:33 that makes sense 14:29:34 just without the icon 14:29:37 not sure though 14:29:43 right then 14:29:53 ais523: of course, it's google. they're probably lying, right 14:29:54 tusho: this is the point where we both claim to have been right... 14:29:59 and no, I believe that 14:30:10 it's just at this point I'm pretty sure we'll both claim the evidence backs up our point of view 14:30:13 well, I was right in that no, they haven't done anything evil and changed code 14:30:16 so let's just drop the topic here 14:30:17 they've just patched in artwork 14:30:22 but you're right that there are modifications 14:30:26 just not the kind you expected 14:30:28 ah, I consider patched-in artwork to be changed code, really 14:30:34 barely, though 14:30:37 and certainly not evil if you ask me 14:30:46 I wasn't accusing them of being evil, necessarily 14:31:11 BTW there are direct links to the installer all over the place, so it's easy enough to download the code without even knowing it has an EULA... 14:32:04 anyway my wine isn't new enough to run it, so I'll just wait for a Linux version for the time being 14:38:53 ais523: there is a reddit commenter who is claiming it is completely impossible to hate metallica because you think their music sucks 14:39:03 they claim that all the haters just hate them because they hate napster 14:39:09 interesting... 14:39:09 furthermore, they are claiming it with 100% literate english 14:39:14 and replying to every single person who argues with them 14:39:21 it's half amusing, half pathetic. 14:40:44 ais523: http://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/6zg2e/cough_metallica_cough/c05a7rx 14:40:51 "Your favorite metal band probably fucking loves Metallica, dickheads. What does your primitive little brain make of that?" 14:41:22 hi optbot, fungot 14:41:22 ais523: i was just checking 14:41:22 ais523: that would just be a one-letter recursive acronym 14:41:40 ah yes, one-letter recursive acronyms 14:41:49 like the C IAQ claimed that "C" was, probably the best joke in the whole IAQ 14:41:57 (which has now gone down, but was good while it lasted) 14:42:12 it's down?! 14:42:13 NOOOOOOOOOOOO 14:42:21 ais523: liar 14:42:21 http://www.seebs.net/faqs/c-iaq.html 14:42:27 tusho: it's been Wayback-only for years, I though 14:42:29 no 14:42:33 it's been up since forever 14:42:41 you mean I've been visiting it on Wayback all these years rather than directly for no reason? 14:42:51 yes 14:48:22 ais523: incidentally, the author seems to be a mac user 14:48:32 how did you deduce that? 14:48:37 ais523: his homepage. 14:48:49 I impressed a lecturer once by deducing that he used Emacs from one of his slides 14:48:56 ais523: gnu indentation? 14:49:01 ais523: http://www.plethora.net/~seebs/ seems to be the dead, wayback-only version 14:49:12 ais523: [[ 2002/01/17 14:49:12 My programming page has a new version of my utilities package which works on Mac OS X. ]] 14:49:22 http://www.seebs.net/log/ has a post from august 21st 2008 14:49:23 about os x 14:56:41 ais523: well? 14:56:43 how did you work it out 14:56:58 tusho: indentation, as you guessed 14:57:04 nobody indents like that deliberately 14:57:14 sorry, I was too busy doing maths on #nethack 14:57:21 in response to what was probably a stupid question 15:00:26 ais523: rms does. 15:01:14 tusho: incidentally I think cperl-mode does GNU-style indentation too, it's forcing me into one true brace in Perl just to avoid the GNU-style indentation 15:01:23 it does one or the other depending on whether you newline before the { 15:01:35 ais523: well, you SHOULD one true brace perl 15:01:37 that is the convention 15:01:45 why, to make it look more like Python? 15:01:48 no 15:01:50 but that's the convention 15:01:56 in most well-written perl i've seen 15:02:53 "most recently, I switched to Dreamweaver 4, because Adobe seems to have replaced the very helpful staff from GoLive systems (no URL available, they've been destroyed) with a spam-friendly behemoth." 15:02:55 how ironic 15:06:04 ais523: hmmm... 15:06:10 bastard needs something like 15:06:25 cat /tmp/bastard /dev/stdout | nc "$host" "$port" 15:06:30 where it cats them asynchronously 15:06:32 and continually 15:06:36 then i'd just echo to /tmp/bastard 15:06:39 tusho: tail -f? 15:06:43 ais523: possibly 15:06:52 nope 15:06:58 you have to use ctrl-d for tail -f'in /dev/stdout 15:07:09 ah, it probably isn't instapiping 15:07:15 your problem is pipe buffering I think 15:07:27 you could just edit the source code for tail to put a fflush in there 15:07:28 ah, wait 15:07:33 I'll need to sed /dev/stdout anyway 15:07:46 so i can just do tail -f /tmp/bastard| 15:08:03 mmph 15:08:07 wish you could do 'sleep forever' 15:08:20 while true; do; done 15:08:41 that is a busy loop 15:08:44 put a sleep in there so as not to busyloop 15:08:47 yes 15:08:48 i know 15:08:50 wile true; do; sleep 100; done 15:08:55 s/wile/while/ 15:08:56 *1d 15:11:12 ais523: you know there should be a program written to abide by the c iaq perfectly 15:11:16 that actually works 15:11:46 tusho: actually much of the C IAQ does work, if only incidentally, it's deliberately set up like that 15:11:53 exactly 15:11:57 the point is it'd be crazy 15:13:51 www.reddit.com could not be found. Please check the name and try again. 15:14:57 'tworks for me 15:15:57 yes 15:17:30 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 15:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | TO bomb:. 15:57:01 a 15:57:20 go team a! 15:57:25 (#nethack meme) 16:00:00 [[Google has withdrawn the offensive EULA language, but why did they put it there in the first place. Money=corruption.]] 16:00:08 because it was a direct copy&paste of their EULA for all services 16:00:18 which they intentionally try and use for everything to make it simpler for users to grasp 16:00:21 it just so happened it wasn't a great idea in this acse. 16:00:25 jeez, everything is a conspiracy these days 16:01:01 presumably the alternative is calling Google's lawyers incompetent, and it's hard to get people to believe that 16:01:12 although I think that this probably was a mistake 16:01:23 somehow 'incompetent' is not something i'd attribute to a huge megacorp's lawyers 16:01:27 they're very good at what they do... 16:01:29 exactly 16:01:36 even so 16:01:41 it's just an early beta release 16:01:55 and lawyers aren't generally all that good at understanding tech. 16:01:59 see: filesharing stuff 16:02:10 they probably skimmed it over quickly and decided it was fine without really understanding 16:02:17 not incompetence, just a really bad mistake 16:09:59 -!- tusho_ has joined. 16:11:19 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:13:08 hi ais523 16:13:18 hi AnMaster 16:13:23 hi tusho_ 16:13:30 eek 16:13:31 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit). 16:13:39 what have I done now? 16:13:55 -!- tusho_ has joined. 16:14:40 hi tusho_ 16:14:48 * ais523 waits to see if the same thing will happen again 16:14:56 oh no 16:14:57 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit). 16:15:14 -!- tusho_ has joined. 16:15:16 hi tusho_ 16:15:20 -!- tusho_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:15:30 -!- ais523 has left (?). 16:15:33 -!- tusho_ has joined. 16:16:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:16:09 hi tusho_ 16:16:11 oh no 16:16:12 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit). 16:16:25 btw did tusho_ say hi to me while I wasn't here? 16:16:43 -!- tusho_ has joined. 16:17:07 ais523, no 16:17:16 hi tusho_ 16:17:16 * tusho_ has quit (Remote closed the connection) 16:17:16 * ais523 (n=ais523@sm01-fap04.bham.ac.uk) has left #esoteric ("9") 16:17:16 * tusho_ (n=tusho@91.105.98.27) has joined #esoteric 16:17:16 * ais523 (n=ais523@sm01-fap04.bham.ac.uk) has joined #esoteric 16:17:17 hi tusho_ 16:17:20 oh no 16:17:22 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit). 16:17:23 hi tusho 16:17:24 ok, this is just getting silly 16:17:38 clearly tusho_ is some kind of bot, or acting like one to ignore me 16:17:39 ais523, I think he wants to say hi first every time 16:17:46 so I'll /ignore it for the time being 16:17:53 ais523, see my theory 16:17:54 -!- tusho_ has joined. 16:17:56 hi tusho 16:17:59 hi tusho_ 16:18:00 -!- tusho_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:18:12 ais523, notice he never quits until you say hi 16:18:21 AnMaster: yes, I noticed that, that's why I think it's a bot 16:18:24 -!- tusho_ has joined. 16:18:27 hi tusho_ 16:18:29 -!- tusho_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:18:30 the say-hi-first thing got out of hand ages ago 16:18:40 ais523, so it quits and reconnect? 16:18:43 hmm... maybe I should make a bot that says hi to tusho underscore bot 16:18:47 and apparently so 16:19:02 Remote closed the connection often happens when a bot quits without /quit 16:19:05 ais523, I think the non-underscore tusho is timing out 16:19:15 no CTCP PING reply 16:19:19 yes, same here 16:19:32 not sure if he normally ignores pings or not 16:19:53 no, normally tusho replies, e doesn't always use the same client though 16:20:00 no CTCP version response either 16:20:34 -!- tusho_ has joined. 16:20:47 ais523, should I say hi to him? 16:20:54 hi tusho_! 16:20:55 oh no 16:20:56 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit). 16:21:03 hmm... maybe write a hibot 16:21:13 if bsmnt_bot was here we could train it to say hi to tusho_ whenever it joined 16:21:23 I trained it to say hi to everyone who joined once 16:21:24 ais523, but why doesn't that bot say hi directly when it connects? 16:21:36 AnMaster: maybe to give other people a chance to say hi first? 16:21:43 -!- tusho_ has joined. 16:21:49 ais523, hm... 16:21:49 that would fit in with tusho's thinking, I think 16:21:52 hi 16:21:54 tusho_: boo 16:21:59 tusho_, hi 16:22:01 oh no 16:22:01 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit). 16:22:03 hm 16:22:19 ah, it's being debugged 16:22:26 note that the quit message was different this time 16:22:32 well, the last two times 16:22:35 ais523, it was that a few times above 16:22:39 ah yes 16:22:42 race condition on exit? 16:22:44 ais523, you are missing one fact 16:22:51 Freenode's IRCd suck 16:22:55 ah 16:22:59 it got a bug with getting wrong quit reasons 16:23:00 well known 16:23:34 ais523, so on freenode about all you can know is that if there is a quoted reason it is *probably* from the person who quit 16:23:37 ;P 16:23:49 heh 16:24:05 I think it uses errno the wrong way, since sometimes I seen * foo has quit (Success) 16:24:11 return code 0 I guess 16:24:15 yep 16:24:18 and sometimes * foo has quit () 16:24:35 Errors with the reason as Success happen too often for me to get amused by them nowadays all that much 16:24:45 ais523, only seen it on freenode 16:24:47 last time I was working on some mmap code where they'd changed the API for it 16:25:02 oh yes I think I saw it on a trunk version of some other ircd, it was fixed pretty quickly 16:25:06 and the example code I had had the version test to determine which arguments to pass backwards 16:25:12 freenode haven't fixed it 16:25:20 so it was getting passed memory with the wrong alignment, and erroring out without setting errno 16:25:26 thus Error: Success. 16:25:36 -!- tusho has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:25:56 ais523, um? that was POSIX mmap()? 16:26:09 uclibc, I think 16:26:17 hm 16:26:23 maybe it was a function that returned an argument for mmap whose API changed 16:26:38 I think C should reflect on error, like befunge :D 16:26:41 would be fun 16:26:49 running the program backwards 16:26:51 you mean run backwards on error? 16:26:58 at the C level, asm level or machine code level? 16:27:09 not sure 16:27:16 which would be most hilarious? 16:27:28 1) a while {} loop would become a do { } while one and vice verse? 16:27:32 could be interesting to see what machine code does when run backwards, it wouldn't be pretty on the x86 as it has 3-byte commands, might work better on some other systems 16:27:40 2) the other options? 16:27:48 asm-level would at least 'work' for certain values of 'work' 16:27:54 oh you would need do { } if 16:28:03 AnMaster: Perl has that 16:28:08 basically do { } xxx; for every construct 16:28:12 it has lots of control-flow operators, someone even implemented but_first 16:28:14 ais523, what does it do? 16:28:24 the do if 16:28:26 AnMaster: evaluates the condition then if it's true runs the command before it 16:28:41 ais523, well that is just like a if with condition after 16:28:47 so much like C if with a different syntax, it's just confusing because it has regular if too 16:28:51 ais523, not like the difference between do while and while 16:28:54 it's hard to see what else it could do, though 16:29:03 an if which always ran the command at least once would be pointless... 16:29:26 but_first is really silly though, clearly it was implemented as an extension by someone messing around rather than being in core 16:29:31 ais523, iirc x86 got variable width commands? 16:29:34 AnMaster: yes 16:29:41 so not only 3 bytes 16:29:51 there are 1 byte ones and maybe even 4 byte ones 16:29:53 right? 16:29:56 yes 16:30:07 I was thinking that reversed 1-byte and 2-byte commands might actually work though 16:30:09 hm what is the range of a 3 byte integer 16:30:11 but more won't 16:30:21 AnMaster: about the right size, MySQL has them I think 16:30:28 ais523, eh? 16:30:37 I asked how many possible 3 byte instructions there are 16:30:44 -8388608 to 8388607 16:30:48 which is a nice range to work with 16:30:48 since I'm pretty sure I seen a 4 byte one 16:31:06 AnMaster: yes, x86 keeps getting extended processor after processor whilst still having backward compatibility 16:31:11 ais523, wait some of the bits on 1 byte ones have to be reserved to mean that it is a 2 or 3 byte one 16:31:14 yes 16:31:28 however as I think I seen 4 byte ones, that means they must have run out of 3 byte ones? 16:31:30 or? 16:31:51 seems likely, there aren't too many possible prefix for 3-byte commands 16:32:12 and the number of commands multiplies up really quickly when you consider that for instance mov eax, ebx and mov eax, ecx are different commands 16:32:16 so basically 2 bytes with the first reserved for some value to mean "multibyte"? 16:32:16 and there are a lot of registers 16:32:30 AnMaster: actually basically 1 byte with some values of the first meaning multibyte 16:32:38 and of the 2 byte commands some values of the pair mean multibyte 16:32:39 and so on 16:32:40 ais523, so parameters are encoded in the instructions themselves? 16:33:00 AnMaster: register parameters are, as are addressing modes, constants and numerical memory addresses aren't 16:33:02 ais523, that means you only get like 255 new ones every time 16:33:14 .. 16:33:23 x86_64 should have tried to clean up that mess 16:33:25 they didn't 16:33:29 AnMaster: well, there's more than one possible prefix to mean multibyte, but it certainly goes to show how they ran out of the mess so quickly 16:33:35 AnMaster: have you heard of Itanium? 16:33:42 -!- tusho has joined. 16:33:42 ais523, yes, VLIW 16:33:43 it was Intel's attempt to clean up that mess, but never really caught on 16:33:45 hi tusho 16:33:48 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:34:18 ais523, well VLIW cause other issues 16:34:19 I think AMD deliberately kept the mess in their x86_64 so that people would be more likely to migrate to it 16:34:24 and Intel copied them 16:34:37 ais523, like being hard to make a good compiler for 16:34:39 -!- tusho has joined. 16:34:44 gcc can manage it 16:34:52 himoscotusholonomy 16:34:52 hi tusho 16:34:53 oh no 16:34:54 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit). 16:35:02 pity, I wanted to test the regex 16:35:09 ais523, will let you next time 16:35:30 ais523, anyway on VLIW the compiler does the scheduling not the CPU basically 16:35:36 yes, I know the theory 16:35:49 and good scheduling isn't that easy 16:35:55 I think gcc can handle it as Linux was ported to Itanium and it must have been compiled with something 16:36:01 pretty much nothing else was, though 16:36:11 and writing pure ASM for Itanium would be hard 16:36:14 and sometimes you need asm 16:36:16 aargh 16:36:20 for example in low level part of OS 16:36:25 it would be like writing machine code 16:36:29 to set control registers or such 16:36:34 -!- tusho has joined. 16:36:38 ais523, ^ 16:36:38 himoscotusholonomy 16:36:46 not... 16:36:47 hi tusho 16:36:50 oh no 16:36:50 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit). 16:36:51 ok, no response 16:36:56 to what I said 16:37:01 it would be like writing machine code 16:37:02 so it's probably looking for words 16:37:04 that is what ASM is 16:37:05 normally 16:37:11 -!- tusho has joined. 16:37:11 except symbolic constants 16:37:13 hi tusho 16:37:17 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:37:23 AnMaster: no, in asm normally you don't have to know the bit patterns of the instruction 16:37:29 -!- tusho has joined. 16:37:32 hi tusho 16:37:35 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:37:42 ais523, well you could handle it like this: 16:37:47 -!- tusho has joined. 16:37:48 op1, op2, op3, op4 16:37:50 hi tusho 16:37:50 whereas with asm VLIW there are so many details to set you may as well just write the machine code, and hi tusho 16:37:53 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:37:54 to execute in a cycle 16:38:01 so each line contains a list 16:38:36 -!- tusho has joined. 16:38:40 ais523, also GCC could have been cross compiled 16:38:42 hi tusho 16:38:46 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:38:49 oh you mean linux 16:38:50 right 16:38:53 AnMaster: it's still producing Itanium output though 16:39:01 -!- tusho has joined. 16:39:06 ais523, yes it is, but it could run on something else 16:39:08 and hi tusho 16:39:11 whether it's a cross-compiler or not 16:39:14 oh no 16:39:14 hi tusho 16:39:15 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:39:18 hm 16:39:22 slow to react there 16:39:26 yep 16:39:36 maybe it is a human all along, but I suspect bot, it would be easy enough to write 16:39:41 lets hope he doesn't get blocked from freenode for reconnecting all the time 16:39:42 -!- tusho has joined. 16:39:46 ais523, yes certainly and hi tusho 16:39:50 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:40:02 well, a temporary block might do em good 16:40:06 -!- tusho has joined. 16:40:09 ais523, agreed and hi tusho 16:40:12 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:40:19 lament: online? 16:40:24 however you better join in too ais523 16:40:32 ais523, or he will blame me ;P 16:40:33 -!- tusho has joined. 16:40:37 your time ais523 16:40:37 yes, I keep trying but you keep beating me to it and hi tusho 16:40:47 ... 16:40:54 tusho, hi 16:40:56 oh no 16:40:56 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit). 16:41:00 ais523, hum 16:41:03 that was very slow to respond to me 16:41:06 ais523, "near beginning of line"? 16:41:15 nah doesn't make snese 16:41:24 seems unlikely unless it's screen-scraping a terminal window 16:41:31 ais523, eh? 16:41:34 OCR? 16:41:34 haha 16:41:41 -!- tusho has joined. 16:41:44 you never no 16:41:46 tusho hi 16:41:50 s/no/know 16:41:52 let see 16:41:55 lets* 16:41:56 s/$/\// 16:42:01 *let's 16:42:04 well 16:42:07 it doesn't work 16:42:08 hi tusho 16:42:10 odd 16:42:15 it's ignoring me I think 16:42:18 tusho, hi 16:42:19 oh no 16:42:19 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit). 16:42:21 just like I'm ignoring tusho_ 16:42:23 ais523, wonder why 16:43:13 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ohsut. 16:43:18 let's see if it works now 16:43:30 actually, probably the real tusho is logreading and tweaking things just to annoy us 16:44:00 ohsut, well that would be very silly 16:44:17 AnMaster: e wrote a bot once just to repeatedly revert a rule on a nomic 16:44:18 I mean it would sure make sense if he was afk 16:44:26 -!- tusho has joined. 16:44:26 ohsut, he admitted it? 16:44:33 no, but it's pretty obvious 16:44:34 hi tusho 16:44:39 oh no 16:44:46 who else would both have the persistence and care? 16:44:51 isn't it going to quit? 16:44:58 hello tusho 16:45:00 oh no 16:45:01 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit). 16:45:03 huh 16:45:06 that's just strange 16:45:11 almost positive it's messing with us now 16:45:15 yes 16:45:18 or has an intermittent bug 16:45:27 -!- ohsut has changed nick to ais523. 16:45:30 ohsut, was he doing that in the beginning though? 16:45:42 again, probably, although the bot's behaviour changes from time to time 16:45:45 or is a human acting bot-like 16:45:51 ais523, lets move the talk elsewhere just to mess with him! 16:45:52 ;) 16:45:54 humans are very good at pretending to be IRC bots, I find 16:46:12 AnMaster: I've almost lost track of what we were talking about... 16:46:32 ais523, VLIW 16:46:40 ah yes 16:46:46 it would be like writing machine code 16:46:48 to do asm in it 16:46:49 not entirely sure if that's a good idea or not, possibly not 16:46:58 because it requires so much memory for each command 16:47:08 and memory access speed is the bottleneck in many systems nowadays 16:47:22 yes, it solves a problem P4 had though: 16:47:25 scheduler 16:47:30 long pipeline 16:47:31 and so on 16:47:38 yes, the longer the pipelines the worse things get 16:47:56 ais523, for long pipelines VLIW would actually solve a lot of stuff 16:48:01 to handle scheduling 16:48:02 yes 16:48:12 -!- tusho has joined. 16:48:16 however since that is no longer the paradigm... 16:48:23 ais523, this time lets just ignore tusho 16:48:25 anyway. 16:48:45 hi fungot, optbot 16:48:45 ais523: so as not to attract bears." however, i don't see 16:48:46 ais523: hi 16:48:56 -!- ais523 has changed nick to tushoops. 16:48:59 hi fungot, optbot 16:49:00 tushoops: what's readline? and is the only sane thing to happen 16:49:00 tushoops: ah, yes 16:49:03 hi fungot, optbot 16:49:03 tushoops: I. . . Um. . . 16:49:04 tushoops: it's the first time around 16:49:09 pity, fungot, optbot, say hi! 16:49:10 tushoops: tcl has a type system! 16:49:10 tushoops: hmm... tells the os how to compile the source, like, or= 16:49:11 your bad luck 16:49:16 yes 16:49:18 hi tusho, anyway 16:49:20 -!- tushoops has changed nick to ais523. 16:49:33 oh well, ignore it then 16:49:39 oh no 16:49:46 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit). 16:49:46 you won't no 16:49:55 ais523, VLIW may not be such a bad idea: 16:49:57 ah, maybe Freenode's doing the same to it as it was doing to me earlier? 16:50:06 forcing ever-longer timeouts due to flooding 16:50:11 1) if you can use all the parts in a cycle it saves scheduling 16:50:23 2) that means a power consuming part is removed 16:50:51 I never really liked hardware scheduling, I preferred either forwarding or a software solution 16:51:04 and 3) a compiler could potentially do more advanced scheduling not realistic in hardware 16:51:12 ais523, so you suggest VLIW then? 16:51:13 but forwarding gets too complicated when you have a long pipeline 16:51:20 AnMaster: I was thinking more about instruction reordering 16:51:32 hm? 16:51:41 instead of telling the processor how to schedule, you literally do all the scheduling yourself and produce pre-scheduled machine code 16:51:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 16:51:58 so if, for instance, jump instructions don't kick in for 3 instructions, you write the jump instruction 3 instructions earlier 16:51:58 ais523, all modern "PC" CPUs can execute several instructions in parallel 16:52:12 for example a floating point operation at the same time as a integer addition 16:52:16 yes, you would presumably have to allow for that too 16:52:28 ais523, that is the reason for VLIW 16:52:37 but that's not all that hard on processors where certain instructions always operate in certain functional units 16:52:55 for instance it's a solved problem by now for the 386 and 387 in parallel, to pick a really old example 16:52:56 ais523, issue: many CPU got several copies of each functional unit 16:53:13 yes, and I don't really know how to deal with that, that's certainly a good reason for trying out something like VLIW 16:53:19 but there are good sides and bad sides to it 16:53:36 yes potential memory waste if you can't use all instructions 16:53:45 for example if you want to run a nop 16:53:47 or whatever 16:54:24 apart from time delays, ideal programs would never need nops 16:54:34 but in practice they're often needed for scheduling or alignment reasons 16:54:43 gcc-bf can get away with just deleting all nops 16:54:52 -!- tusho has joined. 16:54:53 there are sometimes reason for them 16:54:55 in the kerne 16:54:57 kernel* 16:55:01 although I think I'll compile them into the word nop in the BF source code if any are generated 16:55:05 hi ais523 16:55:07 hi AnMaster 16:55:07 for instance by __builtin_nop 16:55:16 oh no 16:55:17 -!- ais523 has left (?). 16:55:22 hahah 16:55:31 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:55:35 hi ais523 16:55:42 ais523, also hardware scheduling for functional units can only look ahead a limited amount 16:55:46 looks like the bot's finally been fixed, then 16:55:53 hi fungot, optbot, tusho 16:55:53 ais523: yeah 16:55:53 ais523: ( define ( macro... not ( define ( printer x list) ( map quote ( list 1 16:55:55 oh no 16:55:56 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit). 16:55:59 or not 16:56:09 ais523, but a compiler could look ahead the whole function 16:56:14 yes 16:56:22 trying to do scheduling in hardware is just crazy, really 16:56:27 so in *theory* VLIW could produce better code 16:56:29 yet 16:56:43 what if the next generation of the CPU adds an additional functional unit 16:56:51 then you need to change all programs 16:57:05 to be able to schedule for that unit too 16:57:06 hmm... maybe the ideal solution would be to generate a separate machine-code program for each processor 16:57:18 a clever compiler could rely on the clock speeds to know that everything stayed in sync 16:57:23 make the asm pretty hard to write though 16:57:25 ais523, um? 16:57:55 ais523, anyway it means the compiler must know the details of this exact cpu revision 16:58:04 it means it is harder to add new stuff 16:58:06 AnMaster: yes, but it pretty much has to anyway 16:58:33 ais523, you can compile generic "modern x86" code that will run well on both AMD and Intel CPUs 16:58:52 and most apps don't need that extra speed gained by specific CPU 16:59:15 I mean it is all nice and so, but is it really worth it for, say, a text editor 16:59:16 yes, but as a programmer I don't see why a processor design that forces everything to be compiled from source is a problem 16:59:29 if you don't need the speed then write an x86 emulator and run on that 16:59:52 ais523, CPUs change very fast, think GCC could keep supporting the last or would lag behind? 17:00:21 I reckon it could keep up if the redesigns weren't too large 17:00:22 ais523, anyway you could have versioned instructions 17:00:40 it's easy enough to port it from one CPU to a CPU similar to it 17:01:25 ...... 17:01:28 XD 17:01:35 probably a horrible idea I admit 17:01:49 yep 17:02:13 ais523, probably should have revision of revision number in case we run out of reserved bits for it and need to extend it ;) 17:02:39 AnMaster: this is pretty much the mess with x86 instructions at the moment, unfortunately... 17:02:51 ais523, yes it was a joke :P 17:03:04 x86 machine language is arguably a joke 17:03:06 anyway yes breaking backward compatibility sometimes is a good idea 17:03:31 maybe you could add a control register with a legacy flag 17:03:43 to support the 1 or 2 last incompatible versions 17:03:52 that OSes could set for specific processes 17:04:00 like x86 mode under x86_64 17:04:23 -!- Tritonio1 has joined. 17:04:26 suddenly everyone would be demanding open source or their stuff wouldn't work any longer 17:04:47 yes, it would certainly be adopted a lot more if processors didn't work on closed-source stuff 17:05:01 lets sell this idea, err I mean GPL it to, this to RMS 17:05:17 ;) 17:05:30 arguably processor design would proceed a lot faster if it didn't have to worry about working on closed-source stuff 17:06:16 maybe processors could have a stripped-down C compiler in ROM so that you could run source-code directly, to avoid problems with installing an OS on the computer in the first place 17:06:40 ais523, heh? 17:06:50 and what if that C compiler had a bug? 17:07:01 ais523, no I think that may work very badly 17:07:06 AnMaster: suppose you want to distribute a LiveCD, what sort of binary do you put on it? 17:07:19 AnMaster: it worked back in the days of BBC BASIC 17:07:23 ais523, hm good point 17:07:36 there would be like a hundred different downloads 17:07:39 for OSes 17:07:57 or it would be a massively bloated 10 dvd set 17:08:05 considering some OSes are almost that already 17:08:16 isn't solaris on like 2 DVD? 17:08:40 A full set of Debian designed for all possible processors would be pretty massive 17:08:58 well you could have stripped down netintalls 17:08:59 installs* 17:09:23 hmm... you could have a second processor for downloading the binary of your OS 17:09:30 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:09:36 some computers are getting that already for websurfing etc. on Linux without waiting for Windows to load 17:09:36 ais523, eh? 17:09:52 normally with ARM as the second processor and some x86 or x86 as the main one 17:10:10 ais523, there should probably be some basic boot mode, so you could do like one netinstall cd with maybe 5-10 different CPUs on 17:10:11 you can load the computer up on the second processor for basic web-browsing, or on the first one to use the full speed of the computer 17:10:15 then just enough for boot loader 17:10:15 the second one loads a lot faster 17:10:19 to decide which to load 17:10:24 does that make sense? 17:10:37 yes, it does 17:10:51 still more sense if you have a simple common processor language ro bootstrap things 17:10:59 doesn't really matter what, you could even use brainfuck I suppose 17:11:11 ais523, well hard to handle should there be a bug in that 17:11:21 AnMaster: a bug in a BF interp? 17:11:44 those things should be possible to prove correct mathematically 17:11:46 no I assumed something anyone like a serious OS developer would use :P 17:11:59 I was trying to pick the most portable machine code I knew 17:12:03 which is surely brainfuck 17:12:10 or possibly P'' 17:13:07 1) probably they used just enough rom/ram for the compiler, right? to save money 2) so someone find a bug, fix would grow the stuff in the rom with maybe 20 bytes... 3) there are only 10 bytes free (they rounded it up to nearest kb limit 17:13:19 just can see that happening... 17:13:51 ais523, anyway you would have to write the whole OS in that then? 17:13:52 or? 17:13:55 AnMaster: well you should see the sort of programs that CPU manufacturers ship to flash their microcode 17:14:09 ais523, I know such exist, but I never seem them 17:14:12 luckily I haven't seen any from personal experience 17:14:20 but one was an ActiveX browser control that only worked in IE 17:14:35 and the other only ran on genuine MS-DOS, it wouldn't even work under Windows' emulation of it 17:14:39 ais523, an user space process shouldn't have the needed access 17:14:56 ais523, well I done bios flashing using PC-DOS floppy 17:14:59 AnMaster: well that's what I thought, it at least explains the MS-DOS for the second one 17:15:15 but as a browser control, that's really worrying 17:15:27 ais523, for win95? 17:15:57 on windows 9x IE could have the needed access 17:16:00 without problems I bet 17:16:04 AnMaster: no idea, this is second-hand so I'm repeating what I know but don't know the details 17:16:13 ah 17:16:43 ais523, for intel microcode I think it doesn't stay after reboot, it reverts to the old state, so you have to load it at every boot 17:16:52 support exists under linux at least 17:17:01 needs something in kernel 17:17:05 well there's 915resolution which patches the BIOS every boot 17:17:07 and some user space tool run as root 17:17:08 which I have on here 17:17:23 means I can't hibernate because if I do I get an unpatched BIOS when it resumes from hibernation 17:17:31 915resolution? 17:17:45 -!- tusho has joined. 17:17:53 hi tusho 17:17:57 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:18:00 ais523, also I assume that "915resolution" whatever it is runs at every reboot? 17:18:01 AnMaster: allows an Intel 915 graphics card to handle screen resolutions higher than 1024x768 17:18:05 and yes, it does 17:18:08 ais523, under linux? 17:18:15 it's a service, at runlevel 3 or so 17:18:23 and yes, under Linux 17:18:29 then you could make it rerun after resume 17:18:32 presumably there's something similar buried in the code of Windows somewhere 17:18:35 logically it should be possible 17:18:41 AnMaster: I assumed so, but never bothered to find out how 17:19:01 I suspect it needs to run before the computer tries to switch into graphics mode 17:19:19 at run level 3 that would already have happened I think? 17:19:24 framebuffer 17:19:40 maybe it's 2 then 17:19:44 actually, usplash 17:19:51 so it can switch into graphics mode first 17:20:02 usplash runs at 1024x768 for that reason, I think 17:20:29 well I don't like boot splashes 17:20:46 Ubuntu has one by default, and I can always control-alt-F1 to get rid of it 17:21:04 at which point all the text scrolls by on terminal 1 rather than the usplash 17:21:19 which just shows a progress bar except when fscking 17:21:27 ais523, you run ubuntu? I thought it was debian? 17:21:54 AnMaster: it's pretty hard to tell from outside, but this is Ubuntu 17:22:08 well I mean I thought you said it was debian before 17:22:09 many of the programs claim to be Debian though because Ubuntu never ported them 17:22:22 and I have used Debian systems in the past, not for IRC though I don't think 17:22:23 ported? 17:22:27 as in "recompiled"? 17:22:32 well, yes 17:22:36 ok lazy 17:22:40 recompiled with different version info 17:22:46 $ bash --version 17:22:46 GNU bash, version 3.2.33(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) 17:22:53 well 17:23:04 ais523, where would it say debian 17:23:05 hmm... that doesn't list distro, I suppose it doesn't need to 17:23:07 or gentoo 17:23:09 or whatever 17:23:23 [ 0.000000] Linux version 2.6.25-gentoo-r7-1 (root@tux.lan) (gcc version 4.1.2 20070214 ( (gdc 0.24, using dmd 1.020)) (Gentoo 4.1.2 p1.1)) #2 Sun Aug 3 13:19:47 CEST 2008 17:23:26 AnMaster: Apache's error page seems to know 17:23:36 that says... because I use gentoo patchset 17:23:45 and gcc says for some reason 17:23:58 I guess their patchset is large enough there 17:24:02 ah, my gcc knows it's Ubuntu 17:24:16 ais523, however most non-gcc/binutils/kernel stuff seems to ignore distro 17:24:43 Unless the distro has a fairly significant patchset, of course. 17:25:02 well, I can hardly imagine them editing the C-INTERCAL source to specify that it's Debian in a version string somewhere 17:25:05 well my package manager seems to know ;) 17:25:14 -!- tusho has joined. 17:25:19 package managers need to know which repo to access, and hi tusho 17:25:20 and some other gentoo made apps 17:25:21 hi tusho 17:25:27 hi ais523 17:25:27 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:25:31 heheh? 17:25:35 script gone wrong? 17:25:36 buggy or rate-limited or both 17:25:41 it's probably what happened to me earlier 17:25:50 where pings took over 10 minutes at one point 17:25:55 -!- tusho has joined. 17:25:56 I pasted a lot of text in #esoteric-blah 17:25:57 hi tusho 17:25:58 hi tusho 17:26:08 hi 17:26:08 ais523, just use a pastebin 17:26:10 hi 17:26:12 hi 17:26:13 and as a result messages I sent were delayed about 10 minutes 17:26:14 hi 17:26:15 by Freenode 17:26:16 hi 17:26:18 hi 17:26:20 hi 17:26:22 hi 17:26:23 ais523, heh 17:26:24 hi 17:26:26 hi 17:26:28 hi 17:26:31 hi 17:26:32 hi 17:26:34 hi 17:26:35 well lets ignore tusho 17:26:36 hi 17:26:38 hi 17:26:38 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:26:41 so it's possible that tusho's current actions have nothing to do with what we're saying at the time 17:26:42 in fact lets get lament to kick him 17:26:48 AnMaster: I tried, but lament wasn't online 17:27:01 also it would need to be a temporary ban, kicking doesn't really work against someone who keeps parting anyway 17:27:03 -!- tusho has joined. 17:27:06 ais523, um the current actions... well after a reconnect any rate limit would be reset 17:27:21 ais523, s/temporary/permanent/ 17:27:37 by "temporary" I meant "remove the ban after a bit" 17:28:05 ais523, well I didn't mean that ;) 17:28:12 and how do you know that Freenode isn't experimenting with a rate limit that works across connections as an antispam method? 17:28:16 it seems in-character for them 17:28:25 hi ais523 17:28:27 /usr/bin $ grep -li Gentoo * | wc -l <-- still waiting 17:28:32 and hi ais523 17:28:33 err 17:28:35 hi tusho 17:28:35 hi AnMaster 17:28:39 hi AnMaster 17:28:43 tusho, so you fixed it? 17:28:45 hi optbot 17:28:45 ais523: hehe 17:28:54 ok that made sense 17:29:17 optbot often does, it seems that half the stuff said in #esoteric would make sense in just about any context 17:29:18 ais523: um? short circut operators? isn't that the default in C? 17:29:26 otoh fungot often makes much less sense 17:29:27 ais523: it would be just 17:30:03 ais523, yes... so they cancel each other out 17:30:15 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 17:30:18 grep -li Gentoo * | wc -l 17:30:20 328 17:30:28 that is number of matching files 17:30:36 I'm waiting for number of non-matching ones 17:30:43 oh and it was in /usr/bin 17:30:57 ok 17:31:19 ais523, actually I think a lot will match because GCC puts a .comment section in with GCC version, and the GCC version strings contain "gentoo" here 17:31:39 it would be a lot more interesting without that .comment section 17:31:39 AnMaster: how many of the /usr/bin executables will have been stripped on your system 17:31:47 ais523, 99% 17:31:49 I expect most of them, probably? 17:31:51 but not from .comment 17:31:54 would that remove the comment? 17:31:59 only from debug symbols 17:32:10 not from other symbol tables 17:32:16 so nm would still make sense I guess 17:32:21 I suppose so 17:32:23 # grep -Li Gentoo * | wc -l 17:32:23 grep: ear: No such file or directory 17:32:23 3059 17:32:29 as for ear it is a borken symlink 17:32:38 to an erlang tool that has been deprecated 17:32:48 -L means "list files without matches" 17:33:01 anyway I filed a bug about package installing that symlink 17:33:17 the interesting part here is that I got so many binaries 17:33:19 AnMaster: I'm trying the same test over here, in /usr/bin and searching for Ubuntu 17:33:20 it is scary 17:33:34 ais523, I mean over 3300 binaries in /usr/bin 17:33:36 wow, and I have a lot of broken symlinks in /usr/bin... 17:33:36 WHY?! 17:33:44 AnMaster: as a comparison 17:33:50 ais523, oh and that doesn't include KDE, KDE is in /usr/kde/3.5/bin 17:33:52 so... 17:34:00 How the heck over 3300 binaries? 17:34:10 lets say some are symlinks 17:34:15 -!- megatron has joined. 17:34:23 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:34:37 x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-ld or x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-c++-3.4.6 17:34:40 even then 17:34:41 a lot 17:34:49 AnMaster: some programs like git install all their possible command-line options as symlinks I think 17:34:55 ah yes 17:35:03 wonder how many non-symlink ones there are 17:35:04 heh, you can install BusyBox and only have one non-symlink command in /usr/bin... 17:35:37 but that's only really worthwhile on embedded systems, and even then they normally need something besides POSIX shell commands 17:35:52 hi ais523 17:35:53 hi AnMaster 17:35:55 BusyBox was invented to create recovery floppy disks for Debian, that's why it has dpkg 17:36:14 tux /usr/bin # find . -type f | wc -l 17:36:14 2975 17:36:16 ...and I think tusho is lagging, even though #freenode say they haven't changed the code recently 17:36:16 and hi tusho 17:36:28 ais523, * Ping reply from tusho: 0.72 second(s) 17:36:40 AnMaster: I have 201 binaries in /usr/bin that mention Ubuntu 17:36:51 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:36:55 ais523, I have almost 3000 non-symlink ones 17:37:05 and 5885 files there total 17:37:13 sure a few are wrapper scripts, like the autoconf for different autoconf versions 17:37:21 ais523, oh and freenode's ircd suck, including their throttle code, it handles bursts badly 17:37:24 like at connect 17:37:29 2584 non-symlink 17:37:36 wow, that's a lot of symlinks... 17:37:41 yes... 17:38:02 ais523, which is why I'm usually lagged for like one and a half minute while my client autojoin lots of channels 17:38:05 no wait, symlinks are 'l' are they? 17:38:21 I have 2584 f and 358 l 17:38:23 so what are the others? 17:38:29 files with embedded newlines? 17:38:39 ais523, eh? 17:38:48 ais523, maybe directories? 17:39:14 AnMaster: wait, I don't have 5885 total 17:39:14 ais523, at least arch put /usr/bin/perl- for some misc perl binaries like perldoc and such 17:39:19 no? 17:39:20 I only have 2942 total now 17:39:26 ais523, fsck time? 17:39:28 so why did I get a high result earlier? 17:39:34 AnMaster: no, I probably messed up a command 17:39:37 ais523, check what command you typed 17:39:38 and I fscked recently 17:39:39 press up arrow 17:39:41 to see 17:39:45 in your shell 17:39:59 ah, I typed ls -1 * 17:40:00 rather than ls 17:40:03 *ls -1 17:40:06 -1? 17:40:08 one? 17:40:16 AnMaster: ls -1 means don't sort into multiple columns 17:40:24 yes and? 17:40:26 I think it's the default anyway when not outputting to tty 17:40:28 it's the * 17:40:29 what has that got to do with anything? 17:40:36 ls -1 * returns higher than ls -1 17:40:41 because it lses all the subdirs too 17:40:52 ais523, you have subdirs in /usr/bin? 17:40:54 I don't 17:40:57 not on my gentoo 17:40:58 hi ais523 17:40:59 hi ais523 17:40:59 hi ais523 17:41:00 on my arch I got one 17:41:00 hi AnMaster 17:41:01 hi AnMaster 17:41:01 hi AnMaster 17:41:01 no, I don't either 17:41:04 so that isn't it 17:41:21 ais523, unless a symlink is to a directory 17:41:23 I have 2584 regular files, 358 symlinks, and one type 't' 17:41:33 t is? 17:41:34 hmm... what does that mean, a t in the file type field? 17:41:38 I don't know either 17:42:00 ah, it's the first letter of "total 381419" 17:42:09 which I forgot to cut out from the result... 17:42:16 haha 17:42:39 # ls -l /etc 17:42:40 total 2086 17:42:40 but 17:42:47 # ls -l /dev 17:42:47 total 0 17:42:51 what does total mean here? 17:42:58 # ls -l /dev | wc -l 17:42:58 235 17:43:00 AnMaster: total size, probably in KB 17:43:07 # ls -l /etc | wc -l 17:43:08 229 17:43:13 no /dev files have any size because they aren't regular files 17:43:13 ais523, hm 17:43:22 ais523, I guess that's it 17:44:34 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 Aug 26 10:58 /dev/XOR -> null 17:44:35 um? 17:44:36 huh 17:44:43 to me that makes no sense 17:45:44 hi aismaster 17:46:18 ais523, no I don't think he is lagged or whatever, just messing with us 17:46:22 what a troll 17:46:31 no not even a troll 17:46:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:46:40 a troll would act much more interesting 17:46:47 damn 17:46:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:47:05 ais523, what did you see last? 17:47:08 your last line was 17:47:12 no /dev files have any size because they aren't regular files 17:47:15 and mine? 17:47:35 ugh, sorry 17:47:37 connection trouble 17:47:41 ais523, hm 17:47:43 and I only said one line after that 17:47:45 /dev files use up no space apart from the inode itself, I think 17:48:19 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/BsFSnT48.html 17:50:00 ais523, ?? 17:50:19 ah, ok 17:50:22 ais523, care to comment on that odd XOR device? 17:50:25 sorry, here, just distracted 17:50:33 and what XOR device? 17:50:40 ais523, ais523, http://rafb.net/p/BsFSnT48.html 17:50:46 I said it in there 17:50:57 ah, seen it now 17:51:05 I don't have it 17:51:12 and if it's just linked to /dev/null, why? 17:52:26 ais523, no clue 17:52:33 that is what I'd like to know 17:52:49 50-udev-default.rules:KERNEL=="null", SYMLINK+="XOR" 17:52:50 well 17:52:55 no explaining comment either 17:54:00 ais523, this is so odd I should probably track down the udev rules maintainer and ask 17:54:16 maybe later 17:54:19 don't have that time 17:54:22 not now 17:57:42 * oerjan wonders if /dev/AND and /dev/OR exist 17:58:09 ais523, for malloc() and free() to work it means the implementation have to internally keep track of how large the block is right? 17:58:20 so why doesn't the C standard add some routine to query that 17:58:38 to me that sounds like it could be useful and the info would already have to be tracked anyway 17:59:05 -!- oklopol has joined. 18:00:41 ais523, what do you think? 18:02:03 -!- Mony has joined. 18:02:13 * AnMaster pokes ais523 18:02:25 hi 18:02:49 hello Mony 18:03:08 AnMaster: hm wait here it's /dev/X0R, not XOR 18:03:31 oerjan, huh? what distro? Gentoo here 18:03:45 oerjan, but it is definitely XOR here 18:03:50 not 0 18:03:55 which looks different 18:04:02 ok, this is getting even weirder 18:04:18 ais523, what is? 18:04:20 AnMaster: DOS has malloc and free as syscalls, and there's no way within the DOS protocol to get at the internal size 18:04:28 AnMaster: /dev/X[O0]R 18:04:31 i don't know it's NVG's server 18:04:31 ais523, ah yes 18:04:37 ais523, well and? 18:04:41 oerjan: uname -a 18:04:44 ais523, it still needs to track it so? 18:05:05 just says GNU/Linux 18:05:08 AnMaster: well, that may be one reason the C standard doesn't specify a way to track, because on some OSs the malloc and free won't tell you 18:05:09 wait you mean they did it for DOS compatibility? 18:05:23 AnMaster: C89 has everything compatibility, it even restricts filenames to 6.1 18:05:31 which is even more ridiculous than 8.3 18:05:34 also /dev/XOR exists on Arch Linux too 18:05:44 ais523, 6.1...? 18:05:46 really? 18:05:51 AnMaster: minimum needed for the C header files 18:05:59 it seems that on some Acorn OS, even that wasn't enough 18:06:01 insane 18:06:10 the C compiler on that system maps stdio.h to h/stdio 18:06:17 that is a directory called h with a file named stdio on it 18:06:22 the standard allows that sort of thing 18:06:31 ridiculous filename restrictions, though 18:06:39 ais523, oh yes that sounds familiar, they do filenames that way 18:06:48 !Befunge is for that OS iirc 18:06:52 and ! means "executable" 18:06:55 ah 18:07:12 so the name makes sense 18:07:13 ais523, !Befunge would iirc be a directory somewhat like the "packages" on OS X I think 18:07:18 I thought it was some sort of C programming joke 18:07:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC_OS is the same iirc 18:07:43 as Acorn OS 18:07:51 at least Acorn made RISC 18:08:46 "Proprietary ADFS filesystem - The OS uses meta-data to determine file type; file extensions are not used. Colons are used to separate the filesystem from the rest of the path; the root is represented by a dollar ($) sign and directories by a period (.). Extensions from foreign filesystems are shown using a forward slash ('example.txt' becomes 'example/txt'). For example, ADFS::HardDisc4.$. is the roo 18:08:47 t of HardDisc4 using the ADFS filesystem. This system gives support for filesystems other than ADFS." 18:08:51 ais523, does that make sense 18:09:18 not really 18:09:20 probably 18:09:22 to someone 18:09:23 but at least it explains it 18:14:50 "but at least it explains it" sounds like a punchline 18:15:14 thus, this must be a joke 18:15:50 no 18:15:55 oerjan, RISC OS is no joke 18:16:00 sadly 18:16:45 it _could_ be, if we are actually in a sitcom or webcomic 18:16:58 (a very nerdy one, so probably the latter) 18:18:38 is it a bad thing to realize you are being http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy in real life? (Warning: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife) 18:20:33 (also, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WrongGenreSavvy) 18:21:25 do you think I should have actually scripted that oh no stuff 18:21:54 :) 18:22:33 -!- jix has joined. 18:23:02 we will never know, as we have already forgotten the context 18:23:18 no I doubt ais523 has forgotten the context 18:23:19 nor AnMaster 18:23:22 although I bet they are ignoring me 18:24:13 just lost the game 18:25:03 ais523: ping 18:25:51 YES THEY HAVE, i have hypnotized them to forget everything i have not been told about 18:26:25 -!- ais523_ has joined. 18:26:54 ais523_: hi 18:27:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:27:04 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 18:27:27 ^echo unignore me kthx -tusho 18:27:28 unignore me kthx -tusho unignore me kthx -tusho 18:27:53 tusho: I never actually had you on ignore 18:27:59 I think I still have tusho_ on ignore though 18:28:01 ais523: anmaster likely does 18:28:04 ok, unignored 18:28:34 tusho, I never had you on ignore either 18:28:35 ^echo why the doubling? 18:28:36 why the doubling? why the doubling? 18:28:37 mental ignore sure 18:28:41 oerjan, it is a echo? 18:28:46 ah 18:28:47 echo doubles stuff 18:28:49 of course 18:28:56 AnMaster: you're the one who went "wtf" the first time 18:28:56 not on Windows it doesn't 18:29:01 now you're acting all "duh" :) 18:29:08 ais523: your os choice does not change the laws of sound 18:29:13 tusho, yes because I thought of it in terms of shell scripts 18:29:20 AnMaster: that's the joke, obviously 18:29:48 tusho: echo says back to you what you said to it on Windows 18:29:49 ais523, hm let me see if I remember... 18:29:51 echo off 18:29:52 unless the argument is on or off 18:29:56 wasn't it something like that 18:29:57 ais523: yes, i know 18:29:58 silly anyway 18:30:00 same in shell 18:30:01 ais523, ? 18:30:07 that is the joke 18:30:08 AnMaster: echo on and echo off control the settings of the sell instead 18:30:12 s/sell/shell/ 18:30:17 ^echo ^echo 18:30:18 ^echo ^echo 18:30:18 ais523, so how did you print the actual string "off"? 18:30:24 AnMaster: with difficulty 18:30:25 oerjan: we'd need two fungot's for that 18:30:26 tusho: then in foo? 18:30:27 hey AnMaster 18:30:30 put fungotty in here 18:30:31 tusho: and the only place where it used to 18:30:36 i just wanted a quine 18:30:39 probably echo "off " would pretty much work on modern Windows, DOS was rubbish at quoting though 18:30:40 tusho, I'm not stupid 18:30:48 AnMaster: yes you are 18:30:49 :D 18:30:58 ais523, ah but they have windows power shell now 18:31:09 AnMaster: that's weird, I haven't used it but I've heard it's object-oriented 18:31:13 and not very like ordinary shellss 18:31:15 tusho, oh and it wouldn't work, since they would run out after a few iterations 18:31:16 s/s$// 18:31:20 one using ^ and the other % 18:31:33 AnMaster: make it use ^, then. 18:31:35 ais523, yes I haven't tried it either 18:31:42 tusho, I don't want them to collide 18:31:48 you could use optbot 18:31:49 AnMaster: #perverted might have gotten too many non-programming-related visitors. 18:31:54 eh 18:31:55 AnMaster: when there's an Underload-bot in a channel it's normally reasonably easy to set up a loop whatever the characters if there's one other bot 18:31:58 huh 18:32:09 tusho, can you find the context of optbot's last comment? 18:32:09 AnMaster: please. 18:32:15 I'm just wondering wtf that was about 18:32:20 AnMaster: probably when people were being perverted in here 18:32:24 and someone told them to go to #perverted 18:32:41 tusho, ah 18:32:43 that exists? 18:32:45 actually, I guess that someone was discussing the name #esoteric 18:32:45 i'll grep, though 18:32:46 and no 18:32:48 I'm not going to check 18:32:50 but channels auto-vivify. 18:32:51 and someone pointed out that it was preferable to #perverted 18:32:58 tusho, yes of course 18:33:04 I know they are created on demand 18:33:11 05.07.22:00:31:04 #perverted might have gotten too many non-programming-related visitors. 18:33:18 ais523, what would be wrong with #esoteric? 18:33:25 00:22:46 --- join: msingh (~msingh@203-59-177-150.dyn.iinet.net.au) joined #esoteric 18:33:25 00:23:00 is this the channel for perverts? 18:33:32 huh 18:33:33 00:25:11 Only if you think esoteric programming languages are perverse. 18:33:33 00:25:59 right 18:33:33 00:26:03 and i think thats reasonable 18:33:34 00:28:28 "marked by a disposition to oppose and contradict", "resistant to guidance or discipline", "marked by immorality; deviating from what is considered right or proper or good"; I guess that does apply. 18:33:34 00:29:49 maybe perverted programming language would have been a better term. plus it has a cool acronym: ppl 18:33:36 00:30:36 hmm no point denying it though, we are talking about perverts 18:33:38 00:31:04 #perverted might have gotten too many non-programming-related visitors. 18:33:41 00:31:18 fizzie: heh, good point. 18:33:42 00:31:37 :) 18:33:49 ^^ contecktz 18:33:53 well, where did the name "esoteric programming languages" COME FROM? 18:34:02 ais523: DO COME FROM .3 18:34:11 ais523, heh 18:34:13 ~'($%2 18:34:20 #### 18:34:24 ais523, what happens if you write it in lower case in intercal? 18:34:26 tusho: don't do that, it would mess with the system library too easily 18:34:30 AnMaster: syntax error nowadays 18:34:35 ais523, before? 18:34:49 ais523: what would it do 18:34:53 there's a compile-time flag in C-INTERCAL that controls case-sensitivity, but as far as I know nobody set it to insensitive 18:35:01 and I think INTERCAL-72 was invented before lowercase was 18:35:25 or at least before it became common 18:35:43 ALGOL-68 had a pragma to tell it to use nonstandard case-based stropping 18:35:44 ais523: what, you mean outside of computers? 18:35:46 that would be cool 18:35:50 everyone would be shouting all the time 18:35:56 in everyday conversation 18:35:57 nonstandard because many computers couldn't manage case distinctions 18:36:42 and ALGOL-68 was only 4 years before INTERCAL-72 18:37:25 tusho: the ancient romans, you could always hear coming 18:37:33 oerjan: oh my! 18:37:36 think of the children... 18:39:06 ... 18:39:10 perhaps #perverted is a better name. 18:40:25 we _do_ get the occasional rare magick enthusiast in here 18:40:40 oerjan: did you miss my joke 18:40:43 or was it too terrible to comment on 18:40:54 and yea, i remember that guy looking for an actual esoteric thing 18:40:55 AAAAAAAAAA 18:40:58 i missed it 18:40:58 i tried to turn him the way of science but no! 18:41:00 :p 18:41:05 and ha 18:41:06 ... 18:41:06 wait 18:41:10 how did oerjan miss a Terrible Pun 18:41:41 i was too preoccupied with my Yoda grammar 18:50:00 hm... why is it that C didn't think of using the $ for anything? 18:50:11 as an operator or whatever 18:53:45 $ is often legal in symbol names, maybe they didn't want to conflict with that. 18:54:00 At least GNU as allows $ on most targets, I think. 18:54:26 Not that standard C variables could have $s, but still. 18:55:41 Alternatively maybe they were COMMUNISTS and didn't want to use the "big money" character. 19:02:24 there's a lot in ASCII that C doesn't use 19:03:21 fizzie: yes, gcc allows $ in variable names without -ansi (or maybe without -pedantic) 19:03:32 asm allows both . and $ in identifiers though 19:03:46 (normally compilers use . in asm identifiers to guarantee they're unique from user-code identifiers) 19:10:32 -!- Corun has joined. 19:11:45 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:21:01 ais523: http://lifehacker.com/5045136/google-chromes-aboutinternets-easter-egg 19:21:09 aww, no screenshot 19:21:25 tusho: does about:mozilla do anything in Chrome 19:21:29 it was special-cased in IE, after all 19:21:30 dunno 19:21:33 to give a blue screen 19:21:37 rather than a 404 19:21:43 and obviously it's special-cased in Firefox 19:22:00 ais523: http://howtogeek.com/ss/2008-09-03_1949.png 19:22:30 about:% has also been doing the rounds recently 19:22:36 it's one of the easiest ways to crash Chrome 19:22:39 and can be linked from a webpage 19:22:47 heh 19:22:48 so link that crashes the browser, straight off 19:22:56 apparently %: crashes it too 19:23:04 tusho: did you just try that? 19:23:08 no 19:23:11 but i heard it 19:23:21 hmm... % is SQL for what sh calls *, isn't it? 19:23:33 no idea if that's relevant 19:23:37 only for LIKE 19:23:39 and no, it's not 19:23:40 kleene percent? 19:23:41 it's just a random character 19:24:43 do other random characters crash it? 19:25:08 %a, %-, %;, %? ? 19:25:20 %a should probably work 19:25:43 or no, it has to be at least two digits evidently 19:25:56 Chrome does a Google search on anything that doesn't look like a URL, I hardly ever use Google so I find the Firefox 3 address bar more useful 19:26:11 why do you hardly ever use google? 19:26:16 do you prefer yahoo? :P 19:26:17 (I know because sometimes I forget to press down before return then it does a Google search) 19:26:33 tusho: web search engines aren't as good as finding what I want then knowing people who know where to find what I want 19:26:35 do you just keep a 365-day history? :-P 19:26:44 Deewiant: my history is infinite 19:26:54 and normally I'm visiting the same websites I've visited earlier, rather than looking for new ones 19:27:03 my history is cleared when the browser closes 19:27:07 also Wikipedia tends to be better for finding an organisation's website then Google does 19:27:23 but yes, I keep infinite history and search through it with the 'awesomebar' normally (stupid name) 19:27:35 awesomebar is an awesome name 19:29:49 Hmm 19:29:56 The RFCs say that a personal site should be at name.me.country 19:30:07 But I've already stated my anti-tying-yourself-to-your-country sentiment, etc. 19:30:11 I wonder what I should use? 19:30:14 I was going to use tusho.org. 19:30:19 But i'm not really an organization. 19:30:23 tusho.name? 19:30:27 (Eww. .name is ugly.) 19:30:37 tusho.info 19:30:38 .me is for some random place but is being marketed for personal websites, etc. 19:30:44 Perhaps I should get tusho.me 19:30:47 Deewiant: er, no 19:30:50 tie yourself to an obviously incorrect country, or preferably an invalid one 19:30:51 that is a complete abuse of the .info domain 19:30:58 so it's equally wrong no matter which domain 19:31:00 ais523: as you can see i'm going for correctness here 19:31:26 .name is the correct one 19:31:47 Deewiant: but... http://tusho.name/ 19:31:48 eurgh 19:31:54 ugly 19:32:08 tusho@tusho.name is even uglier 19:32:19 clearly you want to get rich and shell out for the tusho toplevel domain 19:32:20 just use @tusho.name 19:32:24 ais523: invalid 19:32:26 as we've discussed 19:32:31 which may soon be possible 19:32:35 tusho: valid, you can have no characters before the @ 19:32:40 just most mailers don't understand it 19:32:45 oerjan: it's over 100k. 19:32:48 ais523: no 19:32:49 cool, I didn't know that 19:32:50 we looked it up 19:32:51 remember? 19:32:53 ages ago 19:33:10 Deewiant: you can even have nested comments in email addresses 19:33:19 ais523: fizzie looked it up 19:33:22 you need something before the @ 19:33:28 ais523: yes, that I did know :-) 19:33:45 also, it'd fuck up address validators 19:33:54 address validators already don't understand shit 19:33:57 most address validators are wrong, they can't handle nested comments 19:34:03 not even nested comments 19:34:09 but basic stuff like plus addressing 19:34:26 or short ones like foo@... 19:34:38 well, exactly 19:34:41 i want something i can actually use. 19:34:49 address validators are a piece of shit and should die 19:35:00 Deewiant: so's your face. 19:35:09 no, not really 19:35:09 Deewiant: what about an RFC-based address validator? 19:35:49 the only one I know of is that infamous perl regex and I'm not sure if it's been proven correct 19:35:57 it's not 19:36:01 and you're silly 19:36:02 there are tons 19:36:09 which are correct? 19:36:10 Deewiant: if it isn't recursive, it's wrong 19:36:16 Deewiant: yes 19:36:18 search cpan, foo. 19:36:27 and only very recent versions of Perl can do recursive regexen without helper variables 19:36:40 and I suppose these are deployed and actually in use as well 19:36:45 I mean, sure 19:36:51 given a BNF description 19:36:55 you can write a validator. 19:37:29 but I have yet to see any which even claims to validate according to the whole RFC, let alone does it 19:37:35 doesn't mean there aren't any 19:37:38 that's because you haven't looked hard enough 19:37:39 but it does mean they aren't widespread 19:37:42 no 19:37:44 no it doesn't 19:37:44 I shouldn't HAVE TO 19:37:46 they are on cpan 19:37:50 every perl programmer searches cpan 19:37:55 therefore, amongst perl programmers, they are widespread 19:37:56 I very much doubt that :-D 19:38:07 then you'd be wrong 19:38:07 hmm, maybe Deewiant agrees with me rather than tusho about CPAN 19:38:18 and hoorays, widespread among perl programmers 19:38:25 ais523: yes, i know, any language that doesn't have every library in the core distribution is evil 19:38:32 no, that's not it at all 19:38:34 what about the JSP, PHP, ASP programmers responsible for 80+% of web sites 19:38:50 and e-mail validators that reject "xe@xe.org" 19:38:51 Deewiant: they suck, and your point is 19:38:57 wait 19:39:00 what rejects xe@xe.org 19:39:10 I can't remember 19:39:22 and why 19:39:36 something rejected it because the part before @ was "too short" 19:39:47 or not that, specifically 19:39:51 xe@something I think 19:39:56 something with 2 chars, anyway 19:40:25 tusho: and my point is, whoop-te-do, so good validators exist. They're not used anywhere which makes them practically useless. 19:40:33 doesn't mean they should die 19:40:35 the reverse, in fact. 19:40:43 in most cases it's easier to just send e-mail to the address 19:40:55 if it works, it works 19:40:59 if not, complain to the user 19:41:04 what about validating that it has a @ and a . in it 19:41:06 that seems reasonable to me 19:41:08 why the hell does there need to be a separate validation step 19:41:10 Deewiant: couldn't someone get you blacklisted for spamming like that with repeated join attempts? 19:41:31 ais523: what do you mean? 19:41:42 or I get what you mean, but I can't quite think of a practical case 19:41:45 well, no 19:41:54 but it's the sort of thing it's good to think about when designing webapps 19:42:16 tusho: wrong, . isn't necessary 19:42:28 Deewiant: correct 19:42:37 but i don't WANt people registering @localhost 19:42:53 so blacklist it 19:42:54 classic 19:43:01 or anything else that resolves to a LAN address 19:43:17 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire..."). 19:43:21 Deewiant: or just take the easy route out and check for @ and . 19:43:29 because there will never be an address you want that doesn't have a . in it 19:43:31 tusho: foo@[IPv6 address] 19:43:41 Deewiant: yeah, uh, no. 19:43:46 what do you mean, no. 19:43:48 yes. 19:43:50 tusho: you un-forward-looking person! 19:44:00 even Microsoft Vista has support for IPv6 nowadays 19:44:06 XP does as well 19:44:06 and the world has almost run out of IPv4 addresses 19:44:09 to an extent 19:44:10 I think 19:44:14 Deewiant: really? I thought it was just Vista 19:44:20 I'm fairly sure it does 19:44:28 i want to run out of ipv4 addresses 19:44:28 people are even resorting to horrible things like NAT to get more IPv4 addresses 19:44:30 it'll be fun 19:44:44 wikipedia page mentions "Windows XP SP2 IPv6 stack" 19:45:05 http://www.ipv6.org/impl/windows.html 19:46:33 status: Preview 19:46:44 no idea what that means when translated from Windowsmarketingspeak 19:47:22 probably "beta" 19:49:54 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:52:03 tusho: how's Chrome on Acid3, by the way? 19:52:28 ais523: not very good 19:52:40 they don't use webkit's drawing as it uses propietary apis on windows 19:52:44 tusho: does it beat Safari? 19:52:44 so they've had to write that bit themselves 19:52:45 so it's unsurprising 19:52:46 ais523: no 19:52:51 safari is 100/100 19:52:54 in recent builds 19:52:56 (well, webkit is) 19:53:00 yes, I meant released Safari 19:53:03 ah 19:53:05 then no, i don't think so 19:53:10 it gets like 47/100 19:53:12 you have a Mac, you should be able to check easily 19:53:32 but i don't wanna open chrome 19:53:49 that involves starting parallels 19:54:14 ais523: safari beats it 19:54:15 by a lot 19:54:18 75/100 19:55:41 i think i'll go with tusho.net 19:55:44 for a domain 19:56:01 .com is obviously wrong and feels it, .org is OK but I might wanna profit from that domain sometime 19:56:04 e.g. sell something i've made 19:56:13 .net is pretty much used as the more-netural com these days 19:56:14 so. 19:56:28 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:57:21 what makes .name so ugly compared to .net, for instance 19:57:36 -!- jix has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:57:39 -!- dbc has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:57:39 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:57:39 -!- ais523 has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:57:39 -!- megatron has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:57:39 -!- Tritonio1 has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:57:40 -!- rodgort has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:58:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:58:01 -!- jix has joined. 19:58:01 -!- megatron has joined. 19:58:01 -!- Tritonio1 has joined. 19:58:01 -!- dbc has joined. 19:58:01 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 19:58:01 -!- rodgort has joined. 19:58:20 hope you netsplit back again soon 19:58:36 Deewiant: it's too long for a tld, really 19:58:45 http://tusho.name/ just really grates with me, aesthetically 19:58:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:58:53 i guess it's ego: .name is getting as much attention as tusho 19:58:57 when tusho is the important part 19:59:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:59:03 tusho.net gives 'tusho' the focus 19:59:45 -!- Tritonio1 has quit ("Leaving."). 19:59:45 tusho: I thought .net was mostly for ISPs and suchlike 19:59:50 I have "gehennom.org" registered even though there's nothing like an organization there. On the other hand, "zem.fi" is equally pointless and was chosen because of the shortness. And neither of those are really "name"-style addresses. 19:59:51 ais523: used to be 19:59:57 but not any more 20:00:05 now it's just "everything" 20:00:11 just as .com was once for commercial things 20:00:12 All of .com/.net/.org seem to be just "everything" now. 20:00:19 .org is not everything 20:00:21 beh, I like TLD segregation 20:00:23 I haven't seen a profiteering .org site 20:00:31 and .com vs. .org is to do with profit-making, I think 20:00:33 ais523: .net is the best genericized one, probably 20:00:39 because .com 'feels' commercial, kind of 20:00:42 and .org feels organizational 20:00:44 but .net just feels generic 20:00:52 so i think if you want a generic tld to use, .net is the way to go 20:01:35 I did think about getting "zzie.fi" because of the nickname, but maybe not. 20:01:49 fizzie: you could get fizz.ie 20:01:56 no you couldn't 20:01:58 it's taken 20:02:09 "Surprisingly" the name "zzie" was not taken. 20:02:13 a friend has http://hideou.se/ though, that's where the counter is 20:02:20 (his online moniker is Hideous) 20:02:32 -!- Judofyr has quit (Connection reset by peer). 20:03:12 -!- Judofyr has joined. 20:09:56 -!- Hiato has joined. 20:12:24 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:13:36 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 20:23:12 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:31:06 hm I wonder 20:31:11 about what? 20:31:13 what about post post modern 20:31:17 should happen sooner or later 20:31:34 arguably it already has, but everyone just calls it stupid and ignores it 20:34:32 ais523, oh? 20:34:34 examples? 20:34:44 oh, anything so random and stupid it doesn't even seem to count as art 20:43:27 postmodernism is bullshit 20:43:27 :P 20:43:37 postpostmodernism is not postbullshit, though 20:48:01 -!- tusho has quit ("And then-"). 20:48:18 -!- tusho has joined. 20:52:37 d 20:53:39 did something happen to g? 20:54:06 a 20:56:01 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:57:46 that's some serious time dilation you've got there. look out for black holes. 20:58:22 f 21:06:06 -!- oklofok has joined. 21:06:06 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:11:24 hmm 21:11:26 so 21:11:30 who votes i should get tusho.net 21:18:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:19:10 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:19:22 -!- oklopol has joined. 21:30:54 -!- oklofok has joined. 21:30:54 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | not caring about what the string contains. 21:46:15 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 21:46:22 , 21:46:31 -!- oerjan has quit ("and here i thought it was dedicated to its job"). 21:46:42 hah 21:48:04 ,,, 21:48:12 ok,,,hehehehhehehe...... 21:57:47 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:02:37 -!- LinuS has joined. 22:07:38 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:09:56 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:17:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 22:18:01 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 22:27:16 -!- oklopol has joined. 22:35:32 LMAO 22:35:33 an internet stalker 22:35:34 brilliant 22:41:14 -!- LinuS has joined. 22:43:24 -!- Judofyr has quit. 22:48:35 -!- kar8nga has joined. 22:58:27 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 23:04:00 -!- LinuS has quit (Connection timed out). 2008-09-05: 00:08:31 -!- megatron has changed nick to moozilla. 00:46:44 -!- tusho has quit. 01:45:22 -!- olsner has joined. 02:14:25 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 03:04:44 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:04:54 -!- CO2Games has joined. 03:15:38 I want to make my own brainfuck language. How would I go about getting a compiler for it? 03:20:48 Or should I go for an interpretted language 03:21:18 Making your own Brainfuck language? 03:21:23 If it's Brainfuck, it's not your own. 03:22:25 Well I want to modify it and make it my own 03:23:05 Hmm. 03:23:25 I've got a command I want 03:24:19 And I want a seperate data storage area, not an array, more of a single variable I can cache things into 03:25:12 it's probably better for everyone if you write your own compiler or interpreter 03:26:01 Like so I can ^<< And I'm looking for a way to use a pointer to a specific piece on the tape 03:26:53 and the single-value cache is the only vailable storage? 03:26:59 *available 03:27:05 huh? 03:27:13 Oh no 03:27:20 It's just more efficient 03:28:00 Like in assembly, you have the stack, but you also have areas you can place data, and get it later 03:28:58 It just would be nice if we got that. 03:29:15 indeed 03:30:05 I mean a tape is great but there's still a small piece of ram in the back 03:30:42 my guess is that it would make brainfuck too easy to be interesting 03:31:01 well what about pointers 03:32:03 like you do a bunch of stuff, no idea where you are after some loops. 0@, there I'm back at the start 03:32:37 Since the left edge is not infinite on this 'tape', there would be a device to rewind to the start of the tape 03:33:14 Also, my first brainfuck program >+[++++++++++>,----------]<[<]>>[.>] 03:33:51 Takes input until a 10, then echos all of the data 03:35:15 have you tried running it? 03:35:24 Yes 03:35:29 That's why this one actually works now 03:36:12 Before I just had a program that went until a null pointer but I'm not exactly going to hit a NULL button on my keyboard to stop the program 03:36:52 What I'm looking for is a way to force a loop to happen at least once, a do...while, rather than a while 03:37:28 +[ does that 03:37:43 Yeah I know but then you use up another space 03:37:49 And you can get lost. 03:38:12 I would much rather have >{++++++++++>,----------}<[<]>[.>] 03:38:31 use C 03:38:37 I do 03:38:42 but I want to use brainfuck 03:38:47 Because it's fun 03:39:14 oh well 03:40:08 I guess I could work on a parser for uhh whatever I'm going to call my little brainfuck derivative 03:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Look at it.. 04:24:07 Ok I've decided on having two tapes, the program code cells, and the data storage cells 04:40:34 you don't need much of a parser when every instruction is 1 char 04:41:24 brainfuck was actually designed to make it easy to compile/interpret 05:09:30 heh 05:09:44 Yeah but I've got a lot of commands planned 05:10:23 I'ma go to bed now 05:32:16 -!- calamari has joined. 05:35:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:21:41 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 06:29:14 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 07:41:34 -!- oklopol has joined. 07:57:25 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:15:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:26:01 -!- Judofyr has joined. 09:27:07 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 09:27:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:33:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 09:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and for location of stacks and direction of growing, I'll make that command line arguments. 09:49:05 ^rot13 bcgobg! 09:49:06 optbot! 09:49:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | how do you tell which ones are bad?. 09:56:17 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving."). 10:00:22 -!- GregorR has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:00:22 -!- puzzlet has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:01:48 -!- puzzlet has joined. 10:11:50 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:11:50 -!- dbc has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:11:52 -!- moozilla has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:11:52 -!- rodgort has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:12:06 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:12:06 -!- dbc has joined. 10:12:06 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 10:12:06 -!- rodgort has joined. 10:13:56 -!- GregorR has joined. 10:27:04 What exactly does "If an attempt is made to modify the result of a comma operator or to access it after the next sequence point, the behavior is undefined." mean? 10:27:22 it is from C99 standard 6.5.17 paragraph 3 10:27:26 err 10:27:27 it is from C99 standard 6.5.17 paragraph 2 10:27:30 right 10:30:24 like x = (x=1, 2); ? 10:32:11 Deewiant, I'm not sure 10:32:26 however that seems like it should be undefined to me 10:32:32 probably nothing you'd ever run into in practice 10:32:40 sounds awfully obscure, anyway 10:33:07 Deewiant, well IOCCC probably... 10:33:21 I said "in practice" 10:34:05 yeah true 10:34:36 Deewiant, anyway I suspect obscure use of the comma operator is an excellent way to obfuscate C code. 10:34:55 I think anything nontrivial is UB 10:35:04 yeah 10:35:06 guess so 10:35:25 Deewiant, however the specs give "f(a, (t=3, t+2), c)" as a valid example 10:35:42 would mean f(a, 5, c) according to the example's description 10:35:45 yeah but that's fairly nontrivial ;-) 10:36:03 fairly nontrivial? 10:36:14 evaluate t=3, evaluate t+2. 10:36:24 Deewiant, you added a "non" to much I think 10:36:41 yeah, apparently 10:36:56 Deewiant, still if I ever saw something like like that in real code I would have to read it twice then exclaim wtf :P 10:57:24 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 11:03:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Jesus loves you"). 11:34:15 -!- AnMaster_ has joined. 11:46:47 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection timed out). 12:04:42 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:05:13 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:05:50 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:09:17 -!- tusho has joined. 12:12:52 -!- Tritonio_ has quit ("Leaving."). 13:22:55 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster. 13:24:01 -!- oklofok has joined. 13:24:21 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:53:36 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 14:02:24 -!- kar8nga has joined. 14:09:05 -!- Judofyr has quit. 14:43:14 can you code a compiler (in a non-TC language) for a TC language? 14:46:03 yes 14:46:25 for a lang which goes through 'a=b' in order and applies to stdin and finally outputs to stdout: 14:46:32 +=ptr[i++] 14:46:33 er 14:46:35 ptr[i]-- 14:46:37 er 14:46:38 ++ 14:46:40 well, you get my meaning 14:46:44 brainfuck->c is just trivial string replacements 14:46:55 yep 14:47:23 bf->simple asm in Befunge-93 should also be possible 14:47:31 I guess 15:04:25 -!- Tritonio_ has quit ("Leaving."). 15:28:02 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:37:35 Alright I just finished my cache and tape classes, not sure if they work or not. 15:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | cya. 16:12:33 -!- Ilari has joined. 16:27:05 -!- CO2Games has quit ("And I invented doors, no joke!"). 16:37:43 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:40:38 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 16:45:02 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:45:52 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:51:42 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 16:56:24 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:59:41 hm 16:59:44 i thought ais would be here today. 17:03:25 -!- oklopol has joined. 17:20:49 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 17:28:35 tusho, btw cfunge compiles successfully on GCC and ICC. TCC lacks a certain C99 feature currently cfunge uses but they plan to add that. PCC I couldn't even get to compile a simple hello world on my system 17:28:48 ... 17:28:51 compiling llvm/clang currently, though clang is experimental 17:28:55 i'm not sure why you decided to tell me all that 17:28:56 but okay 17:29:05 so will be fun to see if it works 17:29:09 also, can't wait for clang to replace gcc 17:29:15 from what i've heard it is completely awesome 17:29:21 it seems rather good 17:29:29 however it is still far from complete 17:29:32 yes 17:29:39 hmm 17:29:46 perhaps ais523 should be writing an LLVM backend instead... 17:29:47 tusho, also I suspect trying to compile a kernel using llvm could cause serious issues 17:29:48 for brainfuck 17:29:49 for example 17:29:51 or glibc 17:29:56 or whatever 17:30:04 AnMaster: well, presumably they're targeting regular apps first 17:30:05 :P 17:30:12 tusho, yeah 17:30:21 anyway GCC won't be replaced for a long time 17:30:30 no 17:30:34 bit of a shame, it is _quite_ warty 17:30:37 maybe on OS X, since Apple seems to be LLVM fans 17:30:48 nah, os x is still very BSDy 17:30:55 well 17:30:56 modern BSDy 17:31:06 tusho, you ever been to #llvm on oftc? 17:31:12 a lot seem to match *.apple.com 17:31:14 heh 17:31:23 yea, well, apple have done a lot with llvm 17:31:25 and that's cool 17:31:46 sure is 17:31:49 -!- Mony has joined. 17:31:57 tusho, however, llvm is rather large 17:32:05 I guess the cause is that it is written in C++ 17:32:06 but not bloated 17:32:08 there's quite a difference 17:32:13 not something I would like on an embedded system 17:32:15 nor GCC 17:32:21 well, yea 17:32:26 on an embedded system I would probably try something like PCC 17:32:26 hi 17:32:27 or such 17:32:29 but you can't just tweak a regular compiler for embeddedness 17:32:34 so that's unsurprising 17:32:35 and hi Mony 17:32:39 tusho, PCC and/or TCC should work fine there 17:32:43 yes 17:32:48 TCC is x86 only though 17:32:50 so well.. 17:33:45 AnMaster: does this look ok in konqueror to you? http://eso-std.org/ 17:33:52 it's the style i'm going to use for my blahhhg 17:33:58 a screenshot would be appreciated 17:34:04 although tbh i don't give a crap about konqueror, nobody uses it 17:34:08 tusho, so you broke the real site? 17:34:19 tusho, it looks better than in firefox 17:34:20 odd 17:34:28 AnMaster: the real site had nothing there 17:34:33 except a test post 17:34:43 with the default skin 17:34:48 tusho, why is there an empty white box above the title and below the red bar? 17:34:49 in firefox 17:34:52 but not in konq 17:35:00 AnMaster: works in ff3, it's just that ff2 is broken 17:35:03 that's the same bug IE has 17:35:10 the white box is meant to stretch the whole page 17:35:13 i.e. the posts are meant to be in the white box 17:35:19 does konqueror not even show a white box at all? 17:35:25 lol, i knew it was broken but dayum :) 17:35:31 tusho, in ff2 all links are underlined, in konq they are underline on hover 17:35:33 very strange 17:35:38 not good for colour blind 17:35:38 AnMaster: that's a konqueror default 17:35:43 tusho, ah ok 17:36:00 oh clang finished compiling 17:36:01 a screenshot in ff2&konqueror would be much appreciated, i don't have them to test with 17:36:32 tusho, the red box around ESO have 90 deg corners in konq 17:36:36 rounded ones in ff2 17:36:41 tusho, but sure a sec 17:36:42 AnMaster: again, screenshot would you :P 17:36:44 thanks 17:36:51 tusho, just will take a few minutes 17:36:55 sure, sure 17:42:19 AnMaster: ping 17:42:28 tusho, yes I said a few minutes... 17:42:40 learn the virtue of patience 17:42:53 AnMaster: you were 6 minutes. 17:42:54 :p 17:47:37 tusho, issue: 17:47:41 $ ompload konq.png 17:47:42 Progress for 'konq.png' 17:47:42 ######################################################################## 100.0% 17:47:42 Error omploading 'konq.png' 17:47:42 Finished with 1 errors. 17:47:46 :/ 17:47:50 AnMaster: so use another image host 17:47:52 it's not rocket science 17:47:58 like what one? 17:48:03 no login should be needed 17:48:04 i generally use xs.to 17:48:07 or you could use bayimg.com 17:48:18 tusho, command line tool? 17:48:31 AnMaster: are you going to die to upload two f*cking images via a browser 17:48:43 tusho, indeed 17:49:10 AnMaster: why, exactly? What's the big deal? 17:49:20 tusho, DCC enabled? 17:49:27 no 17:49:32 AnMaster: http://bayimg.com/ just upload it, sheesh 17:49:33 forget it then 17:49:44 why? 17:49:51 what the fuck is the problem with clicking 'browse', selecting a file and clicking upload? 17:50:00 why do you make such a goddamn fuss over having to use a GUI program? 17:50:06 tusho, give me a page that doesn't time out... 17:50:17 Both xs.to and bayimg.com fail? 17:50:21 Unlikely... 17:50:23 yes 17:50:26 How big is that file?! 17:50:29 same as a few other ones 17:50:31 weird 17:50:37 imageshack.us? 17:50:44 $ du -bsh konq.png ff2.png 17:50:44 209K konq.png 17:50:44 206K ff2.png 17:50:50 Strange. 17:50:52 tusho, hm I think my ISP got issues 17:50:57 Likely. 17:51:11 lets see if DCC works 17:51:27 * Offering ff2.png to tusho 17:51:46 ah yes it did 17:51:51 ah 17:51:54 totally broken, both of em 17:51:55 :D 17:51:59 tusho, oh? 17:52:02 tusho, hope you fix that then 17:52:12 AnMaster: can't be arsed, it's for my personal blog 17:52:21 works in firefox 3 & ie 6/7 17:52:28 that'll make up, uh, all of my traffic. 17:52:29 tusho, opera? 17:52:32 AnMaster: yep 17:52:33 I don't have opera btw 17:52:34 safari too 17:52:37 tusho, chrome? 17:52:47 no reason why it shouldn't, it's based on webkit like safari 17:52:55 tusho, lynx? 17:52:58 yes :) 17:53:00 the markup is very lean 17:53:03 it should be very nice in lynx 17:53:14 tusho, well it works in ff2 and konq too, just not the CSS bit 17:53:19 and that doesn't work in lynx either 17:53:24 shush :P 17:53:48 tusho, doesn't work well in lynx 17:53:52 AnMaster: why not 17:53:54 it works fine for me 17:53:58 # ESO 17:53:58 #Feed 17:53:58 17:53:58 ESO 17:54:03 is what it looks like at the top 17:54:16 what is the problem... 17:54:23 page title, the elements, then the h1 17:54:24 tusho, it seems strange 17:54:26 that's how lynx displays things, 17:54:37 want another screenshot?... 17:54:42 no, i have lynx here 17:54:45 the point is it's correct. 17:54:56 #Feed is from the element to the atom feed in my 17:55:01 the second ESO is from the

17:55:01 hm ok 17:55:05 the first one is from the 17:55:27 <tusho> AnMaster: anyway, firefox's problem there is that that white thing should stretch down to the bottom of the page 17:55:30 <tusho> and the posts should be contained within it 17:55:44 <AnMaster> tusho, and konq 3.x problem? 17:55:55 <tusho> AnMaster: exactly the same except it lacks the white box altogether... 17:56:01 <tusho> but whatever :p 17:56:07 <AnMaster> tusho, and got non-rounded corners for the red thing 17:56:10 <AnMaster> if you look around ESO 17:56:16 <tusho> AnMaster: yea, but only firefox and webkit support those 17:56:20 <tusho> well, gecko and webkit 17:56:32 <AnMaster> tusho, so it is a non-standard CSS bit? 17:56:32 <tusho> -moz-border-radius-bottomleft: 5px; 17:56:32 <tusho> -webkit-border-bottom-left-radius: 5px; -moz-border-radius-bottomright: 5px; 17:56:32 <tusho> -webkit-border-bottom-right-radius: 5px; 17:56:36 <tusho> AnMaster: it's in CSS3 17:56:37 <tusho> as border-radius 17:56:45 <tusho> but nothing implements it apart from gecko and webkit 17:56:48 <tusho> and since it isn't standard yet 17:56:53 <tusho> they use the standard CSS method for unstandard things 17:56:56 <tusho> -vendor-property 17:57:04 <tusho> they disagree a bit on how to do things like 'bottom left', though 17:57:20 <tusho> but yes, it's not-yet-standard CSS because css3 isn't final yet 17:57:41 <tusho> anyway, the problem with firefox 2 and konqueror is that they don't let you apply styling to unrecognized elements 17:57:44 <tusho> which is a bug bug bug bug bug bug 17:57:46 <tusho> and entirely their fault 17:57:56 <tusho> (i use HTML5 elements like <article> and such) 17:58:14 <tusho> IE6/7 has the same bug but a tiny piece of JS fixes it 17:58:15 <AnMaster> tusho, they don't claim to support HTML5 I guess 17:58:22 <tusho> AnMaster: it's not to do with that 17:58:27 <tusho> they should let you style <asdasdad> 17:58:30 <tusho> it's how css works 17:58:36 <tusho> it is an actual bug on their part 17:58:37 <AnMaster> if you used XML + your own XML Schema I guess it would work? 17:58:41 <tusho> yes 17:58:43 <tusho> but it's still a bug 17:58:58 <AnMaster> tusho, well add a custom XML schema for it? 17:59:05 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure that works 17:59:11 <tusho> i don't want my pages to be xhtml, can you remember the huge rant in #ESO? 17:59:16 <tusho> i believe I have stated my cause very well 17:59:22 <tusho> and the people working on html5 100% agree with me too 17:59:41 <AnMaster> tusho, so where in the html5 file does it say anything about what version of HTML it is? 17:59:46 <AnMaster> there is a doctype? 17:59:47 <tusho> <!DOCTYPE html> 17:59:53 <tusho> that doctype is html5-specific 17:59:53 <AnMaster> tusho, html5? 17:59:56 <AnMaster> html6? 17:59:57 <tusho> all the pre-html5 ones look like this 18:00:04 <AnMaster> yes I know what they look like 18:00:04 <tusho> <!DOCTYPE html "-//W3C//dicks dicks butts"> 18:00:07 <AnMaster> however... 18:00:11 <tusho> AnMaster: however, you're wrong 18:00:13 <AnMaster> how can you know what html version 18:00:15 <tusho> as browsers ignore the doctype 18:00:19 <tusho> apart from quirks mode vs standards mode 18:00:25 <tusho> they don't actually listen to what version you put in there 18:00:26 <AnMaster> tusho, what about future html6 version? 18:00:31 <tusho> AnMaster: <!DOCTYPE html> 18:00:43 <AnMaster> tusho, so if there were any breaking changes stuff would go pretty bad? 18:00:48 <tusho> AnMaster: it does anyway 18:00:52 <tusho> browsers ignore whatever html version you specify 18:00:56 <tusho> they use the doctype to determine: 18:01:01 <AnMaster> tusho, you mean the major ones do? 18:01:13 <tusho> 1. whether you actually have one (quirks mode vs standards mode) 18:01:18 <tusho> and that's it 18:01:19 <AnMaster> but that doesn't prevent some potential browser from caring about it 18:01:25 <tusho> AnMaster: such a browser would be useless 18:01:30 <AnMaster> tusho, why? 18:01:33 <tusho> as the number of broken webpages would be sky-high with it 18:01:47 <AnMaster> tusho, it could have a quirks mode as well 18:01:53 <tusho> the web is shit, people put shit that contradicts other shit in their shit, and as a browser maker you have to bend over, take it, and add a metric fuckton of hacks to make them work 18:01:59 <tusho> it's lame but it's true 18:02:15 <tusho> AnMaster: btw - http://annevankesteren.nl/2005/07/html5-doctype 18:02:16 <tusho> more reading 18:23:45 <AnMaster> tusho, hey! 18:23:49 <AnMaster> cfunge compiles with clang 18:23:53 <AnMaster> but doesn't link 18:23:57 <AnMaster> unless I comment out: 18:23:59 <AnMaster> signal(SIGPIPE, SIG_IGN); 18:24:01 <AnMaster> in main() 18:24:05 <AnMaster> pretty strange 18:24:07 <tusho> kay 18:24:08 <tusho> :P 18:24:14 <AnMaster> apart from that, which I suspect is a LLVM or clang bug, it works 18:35:38 <AnMaster> tusho, found the issue, it clang claims to be GCC by defining __GNUC__, so that exposes some inline asm in a system header... which then clang fails horribly at 18:35:53 <tusho> well, I can see why they claim to be gcc 18:35:54 <AnMaster> not even going to bother with reporting a bug 18:35:56 <tusho> tons of stuff dies out without it 18:36:01 <AnMaster> since they are liars 18:36:03 <AnMaster> really 18:36:06 <AnMaster> that put me off 18:36:08 <tusho> *lol* 18:36:20 <tusho> AnMaster: your browser sends a user agent that lies 18:36:25 <tusho> and covers up its lie with (compatible; 18:36:28 <tusho> gonna stop using that? 18:36:29 <tusho> guess what 18:36:30 <AnMaster> tusho, yes I hate that as much 18:36:32 <tusho> it does it SO THINGS WORK 18:36:40 <tusho> AnMaster: you'd prefer it if everything was broken, huh 18:36:41 <AnMaster> I don't like it either 18:36:51 <AnMaster> tusho, I prefer avoiding lies 18:36:54 <tusho> LOLLLLLLLLL 18:37:07 <Deewiant> he has a point 18:37:14 <Deewiant> really, the issue is crap that does #ifdef __GNUC__ 18:37:25 <tusho> Deewiant: but he's not going to report a bug because they're DIRTY LIARS 18:37:31 <tusho> that is ridiculous 18:37:43 <Deewiant> yeah, somewhat. 18:37:55 <tusho> evil, malicious, dirty, conniving LIARS 18:37:58 <tusho> they probably lie to everyone 18:38:09 <tusho> why would he deal with such sleazy folk 18:44:18 <oklopol> i wouldn't report a bug either 18:44:30 <tusho> oklopol: no but you wouldn't report it anyway 18:44:31 <oklopol> but for other reasons 18:44:34 <oklopol> indeed 18:44:37 <tusho> whereas AnMaster has stated that the reason is because "they're liars" 18:44:58 <oklopol> i don't mind weird reasons 18:45:09 <oklopol> now to watch stuff -> 18:51:16 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> really, the issue is crap that does #ifdef __GNUC__ 18:52:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well yes, ICC does it too, but at least ICC 1) doesn't fail at it 2) got an option to turn that off (-no-gcc). Though I would prefer if it defaulted to off rather than on 18:52:05 <Deewiant> yes, so file a bug with glibc :-) 18:52:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well, as for 1) clang is beta 18:52:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed. but they want me to try to create a minimal test case not including any system headers.. well as far as I can see it is a preprocessor issue 18:52:58 <Deewiant> and as for preference, again, too much stupid stuff does #ifdef __GNUC__ 18:53:22 <pikhq> It's really irritating to define __GNUC__ if you don't implement GNU C... Stuff that dies without __GNUC__ defined doesn't *deserve* to compile. 18:53:48 <Deewiant> yes, like glibc. 18:54:05 <Deewiant> and the linux kernel. 18:54:19 <pikhq> I thought glibc was fairly explicitly designed to not need __GNUC__. 18:54:34 <Deewiant> "look at Tiny C Compiler development list for workaround they had to put up with to use glibc headers. (TCC refuses to define __GNUC__, but what a pain it causes.)" 18:54:40 <Deewiant> (found via google) 18:54:52 <Deewiant> so quite evidently not 18:54:55 <pikhq> As far as the Linux kernel goes, yeah; why, exactly, *do* they decide to only work with GCC? 18:55:22 <pikhq> Bleck. 18:55:27 <Deewiant> probably because they decided to use C for speed, which makes sense, but C is such a crap language that they want to use the GNU extensions, which also makes sense. :-P 18:55:59 <pikhq> Glibc has absolutely no excuse. 18:56:11 <Deewiant> yup 18:56:23 <pikhq> The GNU coding standards fairly explicitly require cross-UNIX compatibility. 18:56:24 <tusho> pikhq: exactly so it's better to support it 18:56:33 <tusho> except that it makes them DIRTY SLEAZY LIARS 18:56:35 <tusho> right AnMaster 18:57:47 <Deewiant> hmm, no compilers I have can optimize "switch (foo) { case bar: stuff; break; default; assert (0); }" to "stuff;" :-( 18:59:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:59:54 <AnMaster> <pikhq> It's really irritating to define __GNUC__ if you don't implement GNU C... Stuff that dies without __GNUC__ defined doesn't *deserve* to compile. 18:59:59 <AnMaster> well my stuff doesn't 19:00:12 <pikhq> Hrm. 19:00:24 <AnMaster> however it is a lot worse that compilers die when they define __GNUC__ and then get some weird stuff from system headers 19:00:33 <AnMaster> like: what do you expect? 19:00:45 <AnMaster> the compiler authors only got themselves to blame 19:00:49 <Deewiant> it's beta, so expect nothing. 19:01:10 <Deewiant> of course they're going to do something about it given that it's /glibc/ 19:01:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as for TCC, it works almost fine on cfunge 19:01:23 <tusho> Deewiant: and they'd get it done faster 19:01:23 <AnMaster> there seems to be one single C99 construct that cfunge uses that TCC can't handle 19:01:25 <tusho> if AnMaster reported a bug. 19:01:26 <AnMaster> for (int i... 19:01:27 <tusho> but he won't 19:01:29 <tusho> because they're LIARS 19:01:35 <AnMaster> tusho, I plan to 19:01:40 <AnMaster> once my mail is working again 19:01:41 <AnMaster> for TCC 19:01:46 <tusho> AnMaster: ah, so you like sleazy liars now 19:01:48 <AnMaster> since they ask you to use their mailing list 19:01:51 <AnMaster> tusho, no TCC 19:01:57 <AnMaster> read what the heck I said 19:02:04 <tusho> i was talking to Deewiant 19:02:15 <tusho> you win the reading comprehension prize 19:02:19 <AnMaster> <tusho> AnMaster: ah, so you like sleazy liars now 19:02:20 <AnMaster> well 19:02:21 <AnMaster> sure? 19:02:24 <AnMaster> sure it was to Deewiant 19:02:25 <AnMaster> not to me 19:02:30 <AnMaster> or why did you mention my nick 19:02:31 <tusho> yes. yes it was 19:02:35 <tusho> AnMaster: please read properly 19:02:37 <tusho> you mentioned TCC 19:02:39 <tusho> but I was talking to Deewiant 19:02:40 <tusho> about you 19:02:43 <tusho> and clang 19:02:49 <AnMaster> ok 19:03:03 <tusho> and how they'd fix the bug quicker if it were to be, you know, reported. 19:03:11 <AnMaster> tusho, and well it is not because they are liars, but well they are too. but because they only got themselves to blame 19:03:11 <tusho> but you won't, because they're "liars" 19:03:15 <AnMaster> if they claim to be another compiler 19:03:18 <AnMaster> and can't handle that 19:03:26 <tusho> AnMaster: so tell them and let them fucking fix it 19:03:37 <tusho> or is it COMPILER EAT COMPILER EVERY COMPILER FOR HIMSELF 19:06:34 -!- Tritonio_ has quit ("Leaving."). 19:11:06 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 19:16:45 -!- GreyKnight has joined. 19:17:24 <GreyKnight> Ahhh, that explains it 19:17:53 <GreyKnight> I got a memo from some randomer asking me to come back here, I guess the addition of ancient logs to the /topic has something to do with it :-) 19:32:19 -!- CO2Games has joined. 19:32:29 <pikhq> Heh. 19:32:45 <pikhq> Now, if I knew who you were, that'd be great. :p 19:35:13 <CO2Games> Who? 19:35:53 <pikhq> GreyKnight. 19:35:58 <Mony> optbot ? 19:35:59 <optbot> Mony: !"BF!"100[1-$][['<]['>]['+]['-]['.][',][91][93]8CHOOSE;!,]# 19:36:08 <Mony> :D 19:39:27 * GreyKnight is just zis guy, you know? 19:40:32 <tusho> wo 19:40:33 <tusho> w 19:40:34 <tusho> GreyKnight 19:40:36 <tusho> you got my memo? 19:40:37 <tusho> :P 19:40:56 <tusho> he's a guy from a september 06 log i read a while back! 19:40:58 <tusho> he is cool. 19:41:04 <tusho> i think. :p 19:41:15 <tusho> unless someone else is memoing people demanding their return 19:41:17 <tusho> which would be strange 19:41:30 <tusho> and pikhq, i seem to remember you talking to him in the log :P 19:42:11 <tusho> pikhq: here http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.09.02 19:42:15 <GreyKnight> <tusho> [GreyKnight] is cool. <-- wooo critical acclaim 19:42:33 <GreyKnight> how is the wacky world of esoterica these days, anyway 19:42:34 <tusho> GreyKnight: rated 5 out of 5 by irc magazine! 19:42:41 <tusho> and ... pretty much the same, i think. 19:43:35 <pikhq> Ah. 19:43:37 <pikhq> Hmm. 19:43:44 <pikhq> Odd; I think I was around in '06. 19:43:57 <pikhq> Did I join in '05 or '06? 19:44:01 <pikhq> *shrug* 19:44:02 <tusho> pikhq: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.09.02 has you in it 19:44:11 <tusho> and is the log i read with GreyKnight in it :P 19:44:18 <tusho> GreyKnight: oh, as for why I saw that particular log 19:44:20 <pikhq> Guess I just forgot Sir Grey. 19:44:28 <tusho> our bot here (say hi optbot) 19:44:28 <optbot> tusho: I might add <ii (reminiscent of html's "ISINDEX") for a form with just a text field, a submit button and optionally a prompt :P 19:44:39 <tusho> - spews out random quotes from the entire backlog of esoteric 19:44:40 <tusho> optbot! 19:44:41 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Sure it does.. 19:44:45 <tusho> and keeps our topic interesting. 19:44:53 <tusho> I saw a quote that interested me, so I grepped for it and found that log. 19:44:58 <tusho> and ended up reading it. ~fin~ 19:46:00 <AnMaster> who is GreyKnight ? 19:46:06 <AnMaster> I think I seen the nick before somewhere 19:46:31 <tusho> AnMaster: you really are good at asking a question that we've just discussed and answered... 19:46:35 <tusho> he is from this log http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.09.02 19:46:39 <tusho> well http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.09.01 and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.09.02 19:46:55 <AnMaster> tusho, I'm on a PDA atm, connecting to the bnc, I don't have a lot of scrollback... 19:47:04 <tusho> AnMaster: you only need like 10 lines of scrollbar 19:47:07 <tusho> *scrollback 19:47:09 <AnMaster> 10 lines is what I have 19:47:30 <AnMaster> tusho, issue is I just connected at "<tusho> GreyKnight: oh, as for why I saw that particular log" 19:47:36 <tusho> ah. 19:47:37 <AnMaster> so ... 19:48:19 <GreyKnight> hi AnMaster, I am just zis guy 19:48:24 <GreyKnight> there :-) 19:48:28 <AnMaster> k 19:49:19 <AnMaster> ok off again, should be back to normal computer soon 19:51:39 <AnMaster> ok back on desktop 19:51:43 * AnMaster reads scrollback 19:51:58 <CO2Games> Agh I can't get my brainfuck interpreter to work 19:52:02 <AnMaster> ah right, that explains it 19:52:12 <AnMaster> CO2Games, what is the issue? 19:52:30 <CO2Games> Well 19:52:36 <CO2Games> I'm not entirely sure yet 19:53:06 <AnMaster> by the way I recently came up with a new (I think) way of optimising bf 19:53:10 <AnMaster> not sure how to implement it 19:53:12 <AnMaster> basically 19:53:26 <AnMaster> after a [-] you can know you hit 0. Right? 19:53:56 <GreyKnight> I see bf is still popular these days, then 19:53:59 <AnMaster> now if that isn't directly followed by any unbalanced loops or such 19:54:20 <CO2Games> Actually I'm not sure [-] would do that in all cases 19:54:21 <AnMaster> you could optimise away [-]>>++++<<+ to set *one* instead 19:54:22 <AnMaster> to begin with 19:54:31 <AnMaster> and even more complex 19:54:34 <tusho> GreyKnight: it shall always be... 19:54:36 <tusho> (unfortunately) 19:54:46 <tusho> AnMaster: trivial optimization 19:54:47 <tusho> everything does it :P 19:55:01 <AnMaster> in fact apart from in unbalanced loops (as in different > and < count) you could optimise about everything to set constants or add fixed numbers 19:55:08 <AnMaster> relative current pointer 19:55:12 <CO2Games> I have a problem with the brainfuck interpreter I'm writing 19:55:20 <AnMaster> and you could do loop renumbering 19:55:23 <CO2Games> It's parsing everything wrong 19:55:26 <AnMaster> even partly in unbalanced loops 19:55:53 <AnMaster> [+>>--<+>-<<-<] 19:55:57 <AnMaster> that is unbalanced 19:55:59 <AnMaster> however 19:56:15 <AnMaster> [+>+>---<<-<] 19:56:17 <AnMaster> and then 19:56:32 <AnMaster> [+->+>---<<<] 19:56:36 <AnMaster> and one more step 19:56:37 <CO2Games> Oh I wrote my first brainfuck program 19:56:44 <AnMaster> to remove the first +- 19:56:58 <AnMaster> I seen it done for balanced loops 19:57:03 <AnMaster> but never for unbalanced ones 19:57:05 <AnMaster> tusho, ? 19:57:10 <tusho> AnMaster: yes 19:57:14 <tusho> tons of stuff does that 19:57:19 <tusho> see bf4.c or whatever 19:57:21 <tusho> by that mazonka guy 19:57:28 <AnMaster> hm 19:57:42 <AnMaster> tusho, my other idea: Befunge: you could probably JIT it 19:57:55 <AnMaster> though not compile it 19:58:02 <AnMaster> at least not by any reasonable way 19:58:03 <tusho> yes 19:58:05 <tusho> already done 19:58:08 <tusho> see befunge wiki page 19:58:09 <AnMaster> tusho, link? 19:58:34 <AnMaster> tusho, can't find the word JIT there? 19:58:43 <tusho> there is more to reading than ctrl-f 19:59:02 <AnMaster> "The bf2c compiler included with the standard Befunge-93 distribution uses threaded code: each instruction is compiled to a snippet of C code, and control flows through the snippets just as it does in a Befunge interpreter (that is, conditionally on the value of some 'direction' register.) This does not result in a significant advantage over a good interpreter." 19:59:07 <AnMaster> threaded code != JIT 19:59:11 <AnMaster> quite different 19:59:27 <AnMaster> also "Note that the bf2c compiler is not correct since it does not handle p correctly, but it would not be impossible to make it do so (although the C language might not be well-suited for this.)" 19:59:50 <AnMaster> Betty I can't find a link to 19:59:50 <tusho> AnMaster: how about actually reading 19:59:51 <AnMaster> so... 19:59:53 <tusho> Betty. 19:59:57 <tusho> and who cares about the link 20:00:00 <tusho> it's still been done 20:00:07 <AnMaster> tusho, someone says that 20:00:24 <AnMaster> and it is not JIT really for B98 20:00:24 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, evidently they are lying to suppress your ideas. 20:00:27 <AnMaster> only for 93 20:00:32 <tusho> so? 20:00:34 <tusho> the hard bit is g and p. 20:00:36 <tusho> and the directions 20:00:41 <tusho> both 93 and 98 have that 20:00:50 <AnMaster> tusho, betty only handles cardinal directions 20:00:53 <AnMaster> not flying ips 20:00:59 <tusho> so? it's not a hard extension 20:01:11 <AnMaster> because in befunge 98 you can set delta to, say, 5,3 or whatever 20:02:03 <tusho> yes and? 20:02:37 <AnMaster> well pre-compiling lines may not be that useful then 20:02:52 <tusho> so pre-compile instructions 20:02:55 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway the real challenge would be actually compiling it 20:03:03 <tusho> not really. 20:03:13 <tusho> just compile the instruction and a switch based on the direction 20:03:14 <tusho> pretty much 20:03:15 <AnMaster> yes, to self modifying asm I guess 20:03:21 <tusho> yes 20:03:31 <AnMaster> tusho, and if the instruction changes? using p 20:03:37 <AnMaster> then you need to self modify it 20:03:41 <tusho> then recompile it and mov it into place 20:03:45 <tusho> betty did this, obviously 20:03:48 <tusho> since its the only way 20:04:00 <AnMaster> tusho, it could use some JIT framework to do it... 20:04:06 <tusho> so? 20:04:09 <tusho> same code 20:04:14 <tusho> just pre-written 20:05:03 <AnMaster> anyway it should be possible to make some patological thing like <bytes for longest instruction><jump handler>, to actually use a 25*80*sizeof(celloverhead) 20:06:15 <GreyKnight> I think what we *really* need is some novel languages :-p 20:06:18 <AnMaster> which would basically be place for longest instructions (fill rest with nops) + a direction handler 20:06:30 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, like ais523's Feather? 20:06:46 <AnMaster> it seems rather cool 20:06:57 <GreyKnight> any linkage? 20:07:03 <GreyKnight> I don't know that one 20:07:08 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, considering the *grammar* is self modifiable using time jumps 20:07:16 <AnMaster> so you can rewrite it to be a different language 20:07:27 <GreyKnight> lisptastic :-) 20:07:30 <AnMaster> which would cause a time jump and reinterpreting the whole thing iirc 20:08:02 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, well no links, since ais523 have been unable to write up specs or implementation so far 20:08:09 <AnMaster> haven't yet manage to figure out all the details 20:08:22 <AnMaster> oh btw he is the C-INTERCAL maintainer so I'm sure he will manage it :P 20:08:26 <AnMaster> sooner or later 20:08:47 <GreyKnight> good credentials then :-) 20:09:31 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, the fact that it involve time jumps make it extra interesting 20:09:53 <GreyKnight> rewinding the execution timeline and so on? 20:10:00 <AnMaster> well more than that iirc 20:10:01 <GreyKnight> hm, can it jump forwards in time too? 20:10:09 <AnMaster> ever seen TRDS in Befunge-98? 20:10:15 <AnMaster> Only two implementations have it 20:10:26 <GreyKnight> I never got into befunge or brainf*** 20:10:36 <Deewiant> and they implement it differently and neither implementer knows who's wrong and about what ;-) 20:10:41 <AnMaster> RC/Funge (author invented it), CCBI (author implemented it and found RC/Funge's one didn't work) 20:10:52 <AnMaster> anyway it is complex 20:10:59 <AnMaster> extremely complex 20:11:07 <Deewiant> and since then, RC/Funge fixed its, but differently to CCBI, and now they're different in an unknown way :-P 20:11:12 <AnMaster> and that is why I won't implement it in cfunge 20:11:15 <GreyKnight> good, "complex" keeps us in business ;-) 20:11:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah yes forgot that 20:11:34 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcfunge_manual.html#TRDS 20:11:37 <AnMaster> may be of interest 20:11:56 <GreyKnight> appears to be a blank page 20:12:12 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, hm.. worked a second ago... 20:12:12 <Deewiant> O_o rcfunge98.com is down 20:12:28 <Deewiant> welp, google cache probably has it 20:12:34 <tusho> oh and Deewiant develops ccbi 20:12:38 <Deewiant> or not 20:12:39 <tusho> since nobody seems to have mentioned that :P 20:12:50 <Deewiant> irrelevant :-P 20:13:06 <tusho> and dbc is daniel b cristofani, but i think he was here in '06 too 20:13:19 <AnMaster> http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:gFspwyCbPjkJ:www.elf-emulation.com/funge/rcfunge_manual.html+rc/funge&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2 20:13:22 <AnMaster> there 20:13:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, lets just hope it doesn't last long now 20:14:26 <Deewiant> yay, I just got NULL to work in CCBI 2 20:14:41 <Deewiant> I guess that's a good point to stop hacking for today 20:14:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you know NULL and ROMA are easy :P 20:15:16 <GreyKnight> I see 20:15:26 <Deewiant> of course the actual work there was writing the fingerprints framework, not NULL :-P 20:15:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah yes I can see 20:15:39 <tusho> Deewiant: ccbi2?! 20:15:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does ROMA work too? 20:15:46 <tusho> wait. Deewiant is doing work? 20:15:56 <AnMaster> tusho, his posix_fadvice version ;) 20:15:56 <Deewiant> tusho: cleanup/rewrite 20:15:59 * AnMaster ducks 20:16:08 <tusho> Deewiant: why are you doing work man 20:16:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, only NULL now :-P 20:16:17 <Deewiant> tusho: why not 20:16:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so loading more than one fingerprint doesn't work yet? 20:16:24 <tusho> ;) 20:16:29 <AnMaster> to test overloading 20:16:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, I've just only implemented NULL 20:16:41 <Deewiant> and figured I'd stop for today 20:16:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah well 20:16:48 <Deewiant> not like it'd take long to get ROMA, MODU, etc 20:17:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, cathedral style development? Or finally going open bazaar style? ;) 20:17:21 * AnMaster runs 20:18:10 <tusho> oh ho ho AnMaster 20:18:11 <Deewiant> can't be bothered to generate dev snapshots and I'm not sure it makes sense to run a static HTML mercurial repo 20:18:13 <tusho> your cutting wit! 20:18:32 <Deewiant> (since I don't have the option of running a proper mercurial server) 20:18:36 <tusho> every piece of bugging zealotism becomes a joke if you add /me runs after it 20:18:43 <tusho> AnMaster: KILL JEWS 20:18:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about going to, say, darcs? 20:18:44 * tusho runs 20:18:49 <Deewiant> (and since I don't want to run on hgweb or some other site which ain't mine) 20:18:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: say, because darcs sucks :-P 20:19:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah good point... 20:19:18 <Deewiant> well, some people like it 20:19:26 <Deewiant> maybe if I looked into it properly I'd like it too 20:19:30 <AnMaster> I like some of it's features certainly 20:19:35 <Deewiant> like what 20:19:36 <AnMaster> like the cherry picking 20:20:05 <AnMaster> very useful when you want to backport some changes to a stable branch for example 20:20:23 <Deewiant> it's just a matter of your workflow 20:20:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm? I need to back/forward port bugfixes randomly 20:20:46 <Deewiant> with git, I guess the idea is that you make a new local branch (or what are they called) for each individual change 20:20:59 -!- tusho has quit ("And then-"). 20:21:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, don't think that will help for that 20:21:07 <Deewiant> and then if you need to pull a change to a stable branch you just pull from the change's branch 20:21:09 <AnMaster> since they would have diverged 20:21:16 -!- tusho has joined. 20:21:24 <AnMaster> and you would need to pull in other changes from said branch that came from the main branch 20:21:24 <Ilari> Deewiant: Yup. Topic branches. One branch per change (where change can span multiple commits)... 20:21:27 <Deewiant> well, of course in the cherry-pick case you also have to merge them :-P 20:21:27 <AnMaster> as far as I can see 20:21:53 <AnMaster> Ilari, where would you branch it from? 20:21:55 <Deewiant> I don't see the advantage of cherry-pick in that case, you need to merge the changes in any case 20:21:58 <AnMaster> trunk? 20:22:03 <AnMaster> or stable? 20:22:07 <Deewiant> either, I guess 20:22:08 <AnMaster> for a bug fix that needs to go into both 20:22:15 <Deewiant> I guess it's smarter to branch from stable in that case 20:22:16 <Ilari> Nitpiking, merge the branch, pulling branch impiles also fetching it... 20:22:59 <AnMaster> well wouldn't merging the changes from that topic branch require any changes missing from the target of the merge, and that came from previous branches 20:23:00 <AnMaster> like 20:23:14 <AnMaster> rev 50: branch off stable 20:23:33 <AnMaster> rev 70 (trunk): branch of bug fix branch xxx 20:23:40 <AnMaster> find you need to merge it into stable too 20:23:53 <Ilari> Deewiant: At least git.git itself commits more critical bugfixes to mainintance branch and then merges mainintance branch into development (and then merges development branch into less stable development branch). 20:23:55 <AnMaster> wouldn't that require merging any changes between 50 and 70? If not 20:24:03 <AnMaster> If not then it is cherry picking 20:24:08 <AnMaster> if it needs that: useless 20:24:16 <AnMaster> Ilari, can you clarify that? 20:24:42 <AnMaster> maybe you didn't know the bug fix was needed for stable 20:24:44 <AnMaster> until later 20:25:14 <AnMaster> or maybe some other developer made it against trunk, and didn't know about stable needed it, he not being a stable maintainer 20:25:21 <AnMaster> but yourself being that 20:25:36 <AnMaster> Ilari, so tell me how that works out 20:25:37 <AnMaster> :) 20:25:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what about cherry-picking a bugfix change from trunk, how is it different 20:25:48 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> wouldn't that require merging any changes between 50 and 70? If not 20:25:49 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> If not then it is cherry picking 20:25:49 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> if it needs that: useless 20:25:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that ^ 20:26:04 <Deewiant> it's not cherry picking in that case 20:26:04 <AnMaster> thing is, the version control system should be able to keep track of it 20:26:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ? 20:26:22 <AnMaster> how do you mean? 20:26:40 <Deewiant> cherry picking is, take these X changes from branch foo and put them in branch bar 20:26:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yep 20:26:59 <Deewiant> with topic branches, you've just manually put some of the X changes in another branch 20:27:11 <Deewiant> and then it's merge from branch baz to bar 20:27:31 <AnMaster> yes... but merge would require merging any other changes from that branch 20:27:32 <Deewiant> or that's my understanding of it anyway, Ilari might be able to correct if I get something wrong 20:27:36 <AnMaster> as I said 20:27:41 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> rev 50: branch off stable 20:27:41 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> rev 70 (trunk): branch of bug fix branch xxx 20:27:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and of course, merge does that, just like a normal merge 20:27:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so that means changes from *trunk* between 50 and 70 20:28:10 <AnMaster> if you can skip them, then it is cherry picking 20:28:21 <AnMaster> because they are part of the feature branch's history 20:29:19 <Deewiant> I'm not sure if you can skip them, I haven't done much branching myself let alone messing with git enough to know if it has an option for this :-) 20:29:31 <Deewiant> but even if you can, I wouldn't call it cherry picking 20:29:35 <Deewiant> a subset of cherry picking, maybe 20:29:50 <Ilari> If you notice that the bugfix is also needed for stable, maybe rebase the bugfix branch? 20:30:11 <Deewiant> ugh, rebase :-P 20:30:18 <AnMaster> yeah eww at rebase 20:30:21 <Deewiant> makes sense though 20:30:23 <AnMaster> that is why I prefer cherry picking 20:32:19 <Deewiant> I guess you're screwed in that case if you've already published the bugfix branch 20:32:29 <Deewiant> but I'm not sure if that's something you should be doing in any case 20:34:22 <AnMaster> well if you another developer did it, and you, the maintainer notice it 20:34:41 <AnMaster> but the original developer (who doesn't have commit access to the official trunk) 20:34:47 <AnMaster> then well... what? 20:35:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "shouldn't be doing" still? 20:35:31 <Deewiant> like said, I don't know if topic branches should be published 20:36:10 <Deewiant> if not, the original developer shouldn't have and thus hasn't done it, thus he can rebase it and it can be applied to stable 20:36:19 <AnMaster> how else should a non-core developer, say Mr. Random Programmer using your project who wants to help contribute a fix. And you notice it applies to stable too, which Mr Random Programmer doesn't use 20:36:41 <Deewiant> he branches your project 20:36:46 <Deewiant> he makes a topic branch for the change 20:36:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, and don't care about stable 20:36:56 <Deewiant> he pulls the changes from the topic branch into his main branch 20:37:04 <AnMaster> I certainly would only look at the part I use 20:37:07 <Deewiant> he pushes or somebody pulls into the devel branch 20:37:11 <Deewiant> you come along 20:37:16 <Deewiant> you ask him to rebase his topic branch 20:37:23 <Deewiant> he does so 20:37:31 <Deewiant> you pull from his topic branch into the stable branch 20:37:34 <Deewiant> or something. 20:37:37 <AnMaster> hum 20:37:51 <AnMaster> well, I think cherrypicking is a cleaner approach 20:38:00 <AnMaster> and that doesn't prevent the invariant of commits 20:38:09 <Deewiant> like said it's a matter of your workflow 20:38:11 <AnMaster> IMO commits can not be changed once done 20:38:18 <Deewiant> in some sense I think cherrypicking is uglier 20:38:19 <AnMaster> they are not mutable 20:38:26 <Deewiant> since you don't get any separation of changesets 20:38:32 <AnMaster> rebase implies that your commits are mutable 20:38:34 <Deewiant> with topic branches, each branch is its own unit 20:38:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, topic branches and cherry picking then 20:39:01 <Deewiant> yeah, that's fine 20:39:03 <Deewiant> I guess 20:39:06 <AnMaster> but making history mutable 20:39:09 <AnMaster> that is way way worse 20:39:22 <AnMaster> it goes against the core principle 20:39:23 <Deewiant> I think making private history mutable is fine 20:39:35 <GreyKnight> wow, according to the wiki, the 2006 Esolang Contest is *still* going :-D 20:39:43 <GreyKnight> that shouldn't amuse me as much as it does 20:41:16 <AnMaster> never heard of that contest 20:41:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for me it isn't. 20:41:38 -!- vendetta has joined. 20:41:40 <AnMaster> anyway my workflow isn't topic branches really 20:42:00 <AnMaster> not unless they are big changes 20:42:03 <GreyKnight> I remember it from the last time I was here :-) 20:42:18 <AnMaster> I guess everyone just forget it? 20:42:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yeah, I think it's a git thing 20:42:22 <pikhq> GreyKnight: That's because judging has yet to finish. ;p 20:42:36 <pikhq> One of the judges hasn't been seen for months. 20:42:47 <pikhq> When did Sukoshi last show up? February? 20:43:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I make topic branches when I change major core stuff. Like when I last rewrote the entire funge-space code 20:43:09 <AnMaster> was a few months ago 20:43:14 <AnMaster> to clean up a lot of memleaks 20:43:21 <AnMaster> had to change the whole idea behind it 20:43:28 <GreyKnight> pikhq: if he can make it through until January then it will be a three-year contest, maybe? :-) 20:43:37 <AnMaster> actually probably May or even April 20:43:45 -!- vendetta has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:44:36 <pikhq> she. 20:45:20 -!- olsner has joined. 20:46:02 <GreyKnight> he/she/it/they 20:46:44 <pikhq> Sukoshi is a she. 20:48:29 <GreyKnight> yes, you implied that already? 20:53:01 <oklopol> i think i should make an entry for the competition. 20:53:04 <oklopol> i think it's time 20:54:49 <CO2Games> woot 20:54:57 <CO2Games> My brainfuck interpreter works 20:55:08 <CO2Games> Now to make it into drainfuck 20:55:08 <tusho> GreyKnight: you made that mistake in 2006 20:55:15 <tusho> when you discussed the shorthand english 20:55:16 <tusho> with sukoshi 20:55:19 <tusho> (sukoshi=razor-x) 20:56:01 <GreyKnight> well, most IRC clients don't have CTCP GENDER, so I just use "he" as a generic pronoun like normal 20:56:26 <GreyKnight> it's rarely important in discussions about esoteric programming what the gender of your co-conversationalist is anyway :-P 21:01:50 <AnMaster> CO2Games, drainfukc? 21:01:52 <AnMaster> fuck* 21:02:01 <AnMaster> CO2Games, also have you triest lostking under it? 21:02:08 <AnMaster> because if that doesn't work it is probably buggy 21:02:17 <CO2Games> ok 21:02:18 <CO2Games> Uhh 21:02:23 <CO2Games> how many cells does it need? 21:02:40 <CO2Games> for the data tape 21:03:01 <CO2Games> And how many commands does it contain 21:03:32 <tusho> CO2Games: it's 2mb big 21:04:05 <CO2Games> How many command characters does it contain? 21:04:26 <tusho> 2 megabytes worth 21:04:38 <CO2Games> so how many characters is that 21:05:14 <CO2Games> Who wrote it 21:05:41 <CO2Games> Well my echo program worked 21:05:59 <CO2Games> And it uses all the commands 21:06:31 <CO2Games> [ ] > < - + , . 21:06:37 <AnMaster> CO2Games, does it use several levels of nested loops? 21:06:44 <CO2Games> err 21:06:46 <CO2Games> No 21:06:56 <AnMaster> well that could be buggy 21:06:57 <CO2Games> oh...I...get what you mean 21:07:11 <CO2Games> Yeah it doesn't support nested loops yet... 21:07:23 <AnMaster> http://jonripley.com/i-fiction/games/LostKingdomBF.html 21:07:29 <AnMaster> is the link anyway 21:07:43 <AnMaster> CO2Games, and you say you don't know how much 2 MB's of chars are? 21:07:50 <pikhq> Since it doesn't support nested loops, it's not turing complete. 21:07:55 <AnMaster> you never coded C I bet 21:08:01 <AnMaster> if you did, you would have known 21:08:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, indeed 21:08:12 <tusho> AnMaster: You gain +5 Holier Than Thou 21:08:18 <tusho> Ding-ding-ding-ding! Level up. 21:08:20 <AnMaster> tusho, hm? 21:08:31 <pikhq> Most PEBBLE-compiled code wouldn't work in it. 21:08:36 <AnMaster> tusho, ? 21:08:42 <pikhq> CO2Games: I think it just *barely* works in the 30,000 cell limit. 21:09:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, in fact everything except trivial programs will need nested loops 21:09:13 <CO2Games> 30,000...hmm 21:09:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, how many memory cells? 21:09:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh btw how goes Def-BF? 21:10:02 <CO2Games> Ok so I can't do this 21:10:14 <AnMaster> can't do what? 21:10:20 <CO2Games> 1,024,000 code pieces is too much for my interpreter 21:10:26 <CO2Games> and that's only half 21:10:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: No work on Def-BF. Busy. 21:10:33 <AnMaster> CO2Games, well why is that? 21:10:35 <AnMaster> malloc() 21:10:39 <AnMaster> don't use a static array 21:10:40 <CO2Games> ehh 21:10:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, ok 21:10:59 <CO2Games> I use a static array to ensure that I can always reach a place via pointers 21:11:05 <AnMaster> ... 21:11:15 <CO2Games> Not c pointers 21:11:21 <CO2Games> I mean brainfuck 21:11:31 <AnMaster> you still make no sense 21:11:35 <pikhq> CO2Games: What language are you writing this in? 21:11:36 <CO2Games> Here... 21:11:38 <CO2Games> C++ 21:11:45 <AnMaster> and? 21:11:47 <CO2Games> I can change it easily enough 21:11:47 <pikhq> Hmm. 21:11:51 <CO2Games> Anyways... 21:12:03 <AnMaster> I mean you got to support large programs 21:12:12 <CO2Games> I have a system for jumps and absolute pointer-movements 21:12:19 <pikhq> It's not hard in C++; just store the large program in a vector... 21:12:36 <CO2Games> It works as an array and I don't want to break that 21:12:50 <AnMaster> CO2Games, any interpreter or compiler that can't handle lostkingdom is not worth the files it was written in ;) 21:12:56 <AnMaster> really, it is the ultimate test 21:13:07 <CO2Games> It's my first interpreter 21:13:10 <AnMaster> everyone have to succeed at it 21:13:12 <AnMaster> so? 21:13:17 <CO2Games> ever 21:13:21 <AnMaster> CO2Games, my first was in *bash* think of that 21:13:26 <AnMaster> it was my first ever 21:13:28 <AnMaster> it was slow 21:13:30 <CO2Games> lol 21:13:35 <AnMaster> but handled lostkingdom 21:13:48 <AnMaster> admittedly it took about 5 minutes to *parse* lostkingdom 21:13:49 <CO2Games> I can add support by changing the shorts to longs 21:13:57 <AnMaster> and that was even using awk to optimise it at string leve 21:13:58 <AnMaster> level* 21:14:01 <AnMaster> to a bytecode 21:14:07 <AnMaster> but it sitll handled it 21:14:09 <GreyKnight> CO2Games: good for you, now you can design your second: the rewrite of the first :-D 21:14:16 <CO2Games> lol 21:14:18 <CO2Games> It's not done yet 21:14:22 <AnMaster> CO2Games, um all cells are 8 bits 21:14:25 <AnMaster> and wrap 21:14:30 <AnMaster> unsigned chars 21:14:34 <CO2Games> Not in mine 21:14:41 <CO2Games> Mine is signed shorts that don't wrap 21:14:45 <tusho> AnMaster: not defined 21:14:47 <AnMaster> CO2Games, if the memory cells aren't then it won't run lostking 21:14:48 <tusho> it's unspecified 21:14:53 <AnMaster> just fyi 21:15:04 <AnMaster> well lostkingdom won't work then 21:15:06 <CO2Games> I can let it wrap 21:15:09 <pikhq> CO2Games, make them unsigned chars. 21:15:15 <CO2Games> No not yet 21:15:19 <CO2Games> What? no 21:15:20 <AnMaster> CO2Games, why not? 21:15:30 <CO2Games> This is drainfuck 21:15:33 <CO2Games> Not brainfuck 21:15:36 <AnMaster> drainfuck? 21:15:42 <AnMaster> ever looked at Def-BF then? 21:15:45 <CO2Games> It's my little derived thingy 21:15:47 <AnMaster> could be useful for you 21:15:58 <AnMaster> it have pointers 21:16:00 <AnMaster> and such 21:16:03 <CO2Games> It has more than just a pointer thinh 21:16:16 <AnMaster> CO2Games, it Def-BF is meant to be able to write a kernel in 21:16:24 <CO2Games> wtf 21:16:27 <AnMaster> the high level code got functions 21:16:31 <AnMaster> ask pikhq for links to specs 21:16:34 <CO2Games> Noooooo 21:16:39 <AnMaster> CO2Games, I wrote a low level implementation 21:16:44 <CO2Games> I want my own language 21:16:44 <AnMaster> to handle the pre-processed code 21:16:45 <GreyKnight> the real question is why "lostkingdom" relies on unspecified behaviour ;-o 21:16:50 <AnMaster> no one ever wrote the high level part yet 21:17:03 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, because everyone does it that way? 21:17:09 <GreyKnight> CO2Games: You should invent a nice new one! BF clones are ten-a-penny. 21:17:25 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, oh yes there are lots 21:17:29 <GreyKnight> AnMaster: so standardise it :-P 21:17:29 <CO2Games> Nah I want something like brainfuck 21:17:35 <pikhq> GreyKnight: It's unspecified but de-facto behavior. 21:17:39 <CO2Games> I'm keeping the standard functions, mostly. 21:17:51 <CO2Games> I'm adding a static variable you can access 21:18:05 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, and apart from Def-BF and Boolfuck, they are just really stuff like "map ook to >, eek to >" or whatever (oh that variant is called "Ook!" iirc) 21:18:23 <CO2Games> Like, to copy a cell, ^ then move over to the destination cell and V 21:18:28 <pikhq> AnMaster: And Dimensifuck? 21:18:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, haven't heard of that one I think? 21:18:43 <AnMaster> or wait is that the several tapes one? 21:18:43 <pikhq> It's one I devised. 21:18:44 <AnMaster> then yes 21:18:53 <pikhq> Not the one with several tapes. 21:18:55 <AnMaster> then it is one of the actually interesting ones 21:19:00 <pikhq> The code itself is in N dimensions. 21:19:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh how does it differ then? 21:19:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, that's called befunge/trefunge/n-funge :P 21:19:29 <CO2Games> In fact lost kingdom won't run on drainfuck because it has to be prepended with drainfuck:: at the start of the source 21:19:30 <AnMaster> there is unefunge too 21:19:37 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:19:37 <pikhq> No, though it's vaguely inspired by the funges. 21:19:49 <pikhq> 5 dimensional "Hello, world!". 21:19:50 <pikhq> :) 21:19:55 <AnMaster> drainfuck:: <-- huh. why double : ? 21:20:01 <CO2Games> Idk 21:20:09 <CO2Games> Just looked cool to me 21:20:24 <CO2Games> also it has to be lowercase 21:20:31 <CO2Games> at the moment, that is 21:20:35 <AnMaster> CO2Games, well try it with unsigned char to make sure lostkingdom works, so you get all the details like nested loops and so on 21:20:37 <AnMaster> then change it 21:20:52 <CO2Games> No no, I'm going to stay with this 21:20:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, got a link to that? 21:21:19 <AnMaster> CO2Games, k, so the nested loops probably are broken 21:21:19 <CO2Games> You see, the cell count and the maximum value per cell is only one off 21:21:31 <CO2Games> I'll fix the nested loops 21:21:34 <AnMaster> lostkingdom is the best test suite for bf there is 21:21:42 <AnMaster> as a final test 21:21:44 <CO2Games> But this isn't brainfuck 21:21:46 <CO2Games> It's drainfuck 21:21:58 <CO2Games> It doesn't follow all of brainfuck's standards 21:21:59 <AnMaster> CO2Games, doesn't mean the same bugs couldn't show up 21:22:10 <pikhq> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Dimensifuck 21:22:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, you should make an opengl based editor with sound effects for it ;) 21:22:33 <CO2Games> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Drainfuck 21:23:15 <CO2Games> So far I have E, ^, and V coded, but none of them are tested 21:23:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh yes there is one for some semi-funge one btw. BeQunge or something like that, B93 + extra dimensions + not limited to 25x80. And buggy 21:23:33 <AnMaster> very buggy 21:23:43 <tusho> HAHAHAHHAHA 21:23:44 <AnMaster> however not a bad idea 21:23:46 <tusho> Slereah will love this 21:23:50 <tusho> Melab is one of the esco crew 21:23:55 * tusho goes and removes all their links again 21:24:02 <AnMaster> tusho, "melab"? 21:24:14 <tusho> AnMaster: an esowiki user who added tons of unfinished languages and weird categories, etc 21:24:20 <tusho> and has now added back all the esco links into pages 21:25:28 <CO2Games> So lost kingdom uses wrapping? 21:25:57 <AnMaster> tusho, esco, sounds familiar, iirc silly idea + crappy implementation 21:26:03 <AnMaster> CO2Games, iirc yes 21:26:06 <CO2Games> shit 21:26:09 <CO2Games> brb 21:26:13 <tusho> AnMaster: it tries to implement all esoteric languages in one shitty c++ program 21:26:18 <AnMaster> CO2Games, cell wrapping 21:26:24 <AnMaster> CO2Games, as in integer overflow 21:26:26 <tusho> they are unintentionally hilarious 21:26:32 <AnMaster> not < and > wrapping 21:26:32 <tusho> They say: "Byter is a language for training your brain" 21:26:34 <tusho> but it's actually 21:26:34 <AnMaster> that doesn't work 21:26:37 <tusho> "Byter is a language for training brains" 21:26:39 <tusho> xD 21:27:05 <AnMaster> tusho, eh.... 21:27:07 <AnMaster> heh* 21:27:24 <tusho> but yea they added links to themselves to every esolang article they support 21:27:29 <tusho> so i get to have fun with REMOVING THEM ALL! 21:27:29 <tusho> yay 21:27:33 <tusho> already done, actually 21:28:31 <CO2Games> Well 21:28:32 <dbc> CO2 you probably don't mean "next" and "previous". 21:28:48 <CO2Games> Yeah that's what the interpreter does atm. 21:28:55 <dbc> Ah :) 21:29:07 <CO2Games> Wasn't thinking about nested stuff 21:29:35 <CO2Games> But now that I think about it...ooops. 21:30:40 <CO2Games> I need to check for the other markers and increment a counter if it encounters one of itself, decrementing when it meets an opposite and only when the counter is 0 should it accept an opposite as its own 21:31:01 <CO2Games> Also, lost kingdom would probably be shit if I got it to work on drainfuck 21:31:18 <CO2Games> drainfuck doesn't 'stream' the code right out of the file 21:31:26 <CO2Games> It parses it into the code tape 21:31:47 <CO2Games> The interpreter uses three tapes: code, data, and inactive 21:31:48 <GreyKnight> "brainfsck" <-- that's just silly 21:32:01 <GreyKnight> and the "fsck" joke got old decades ago anyway :-P 21:32:27 <tusho> CO2Games: most good interps parse 21:32:31 <CO2Games> X swaps the data and inactive tapes, L copies the data over the inactive 21:33:11 <CO2Games> So lost kingdom would take 4 megs of ram just for the code 21:33:22 <GreyKnight> whee :-) 21:33:46 <CO2Games> And that's more than my program allocates 21:34:25 <CO2Games> my program allocates a short for each positive value in a signed short 21:34:32 <dbc> The matching method you describe is comparatively slow and complicated. 21:34:42 <GreyKnight> maybe you could swap sections of tape in and out of memory to tempfiles depending on your current position? Would probably take a rewrite though. 21:35:01 <GreyKnight> listen to me, trying to give advice, don't even know this language :-D 21:35:26 <CO2Games> well, the tapes are all classes so I could essentially just give them a save and load command 21:35:33 <CO2Games> Thus you could have a save state for the programs 21:35:44 <CO2Games> Although they would all be of equal size 21:36:12 <CO2Games> Since the memory allocated is always the same assuming an error didn't happen that I didn't catch 21:36:29 <dbc> Anyway, arrays are quicker than tapes :) 21:36:44 <GreyKnight> I was talking about swapping out *sections* of tape though, to solve your "program's tape too big to have all at once" problem. Maybe I am talking nonsense, check with an expert :-) 21:36:54 <CO2Games> oh 21:37:07 <pikhq> You could just have a dynamic array... 21:37:14 <CO2Games> Tried that 21:37:17 <pikhq> vector<char> is not all that hard to write. 21:37:17 <CO2Games> decided no 21:37:55 <CO2Games> also they are shorts, not single bytes 21:38:08 <CO2Games> signed shorts 21:38:11 <AnMaster> <GreyKnight> "brainfsck" <-- that's just silly 21:38:12 <AnMaster> ooh 21:38:20 <AnMaster> static code analyser for brainfuck! 21:38:21 <AnMaster> :D 21:38:30 <CO2Games> what? 21:38:44 <AnMaster> that is obviously what brainfsck would be 21:38:51 <CO2Games> really? 21:38:59 <CO2Games> Where did you guys here brainfsck 21:39:02 <GreyKnight> just what bf-land needs, more punnery :-P 21:39:03 <AnMaster> you don't get jokes do you? 21:39:18 <AnMaster> CO2Games, try #include <humor> 21:39:19 <dbc> Why signed? 21:39:19 <AnMaster> ... 21:39:28 <CO2Games> Why not? 21:39:38 <CO2Games> It doesn't wrap around anyways 21:39:41 <GreyKnight> AnMaster, try #include <relaxation> // :-) 21:40:00 <AnMaster> GregorR, well I'm not a C++ coder like CO2Games so I leave the .h in :P 21:40:06 <CO2Games> lol 21:40:08 <dbc> (doesn't wrap why?) 21:40:11 <AnMaster> I was just trying to talk to CO2Games in a way he knew 21:40:14 <GreyKnight> tab-completion strikes again! 21:40:21 <CO2Games> Decided not to do taht 21:40:45 <dbc> in C++ it would take extra work to make a short NOT wrap, right? 21:40:56 <CO2Games> huh? 21:41:01 <CO2Games> Wait they wrap already? 21:41:09 <dbc> Like, you have to actually check right before you increment it whether it's at the top of its range, and then make a problem if it is? 21:41:24 <CO2Games> Yeah 21:41:37 <CO2Games> if it is it just lands at the top and doesn't bounce off or anything 21:41:42 <dbc> Lot of work to achieve a loss of functionality, unless the point of the program is to check whether a brainfuck program uses wrapping. 21:41:47 <CO2Games> or bottom if going the other way 21:41:58 <AnMaster> dbc, I think CO2Games is thinking of wrapping space rather than wrapping numbers 21:42:01 <CO2Games> Didn't think shorts already wrapped around 21:42:07 <AnMaster> it is the only sense his comments would make sense 21:42:16 <AnMaster> CO2Games, wrapping *signed* numbers is undefined 21:42:17 <CO2Games> what? 21:42:27 <AnMaster> wrapping unsigned numbers happen automatically 21:42:34 <CO2Games> holy shit 21:42:39 <dbc> AnMaster nah...because that wouldn't have anything to do with signed vs unsigned. 21:42:43 <CO2Games> that solves it all 21:42:43 <AnMaster> if you overflow a unsigned number it will wrap of course 21:42:56 <AnMaster> but if you overflow a signed one... anything could happen 21:42:59 <AnMaster> dbc, ? 21:43:08 <CO2Games> k I guess I will do this 21:43:19 <AnMaster> for example you could hit a trap representation 21:43:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's mostly because the representation of signed numbers is undefined; 2's complement will, of course, wrap a bit differently from sign bit. 21:43:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, um ever heard of trap representation? 21:43:49 <pikhq> Nope. 21:43:52 <dbc> Is there a computer in common use where overflowing or underflowing a signed number does something other than wrap (and set an overflow flag for other things to look at and react to as they like)? 21:44:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, a certain value may be reserved for "can't be used" 21:44:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, normally 0x8..... (that is all the rest are zeros) for int iirc 21:44:36 <AnMaster> may be 21:44:41 <pikhq> I actually think x86 sets an overflow flag. (correct me if I'm wrong) 21:44:45 <AnMaster> and then program would fail 21:44:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, x86 doesn't have a trap representation 21:45:08 <AnMaster> nor does any *common* platforms as far as I know 21:45:08 <pikhq> Overflow flag, not trap representation. 21:45:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, and yes it sets a carry flag iirc 21:45:31 <AnMaster> but you can't reach that from inside C 21:45:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | >.<. 21:45:42 <dbc> pikhq yeah, that's what I thought. 21:45:48 <pikhq> Unless one uses inline assembly. :p 21:45:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, which isn't C 21:45:59 <AnMaster> it is an extension 21:46:02 <pikhq> Yeah, yeah, yeah. 21:46:04 <AnMaster> asm() isn't valid in ISO C 21:46:11 <AnMaster> or ANSI if you are american 21:46:12 <AnMaster> ;) 21:46:13 <GreyKnight> basically the moral of the story is "don't let signeds overflow" :-) 21:46:22 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, you got it 21:46:24 <GreyKnight> "it's like really bad" 21:46:27 <AnMaster> and never trust NULL to be 0 21:46:28 <AnMaster> ;) 21:46:48 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, potentially really bad, but mostly it works on normal computers 21:46:53 <pikhq> Especially not if you have to write code on something I may have designed. 21:46:55 <GreyKnight> AnMaster: I literally just got through fixing a bunch of someone else's code of that exact problem 21:47:01 <AnMaster> but yes you invoke undefined behaviour if you let signed overflow 21:47:04 <AnMaster> that is correct 21:47:12 * pikhq has been really tempted to use 0x0 for the syscall gate in a kernel 21:47:22 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:47:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, I was rather thinking for that C -> Lisp CPU compiler 21:48:01 <AnMaster> yes that existed I heard 21:48:14 <AnMaster> you know, Symbolics Lisp computers or something like that 21:48:20 <AnMaster> their NULL wasn't 0 21:48:29 <AnMaster> oh and their signed had bad issues when overflowing 21:48:37 <AnMaster> pretty sure about that 21:48:58 <dbc> Anyway. In this "Drainfuck" there doesn't appear to be any need for negative numbers unless it's to address cells below cell 0, which I'm guessing don't exist...they haven't been mentioned, anyway. 21:49:33 <dbc> And therefore there's no obvious benefit to using signed cells. 21:49:46 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine 21:50:40 <CO2Games> ...wo 21:50:41 <CO2Games> w 21:50:45 <CO2Games> first compile worked 21:50:51 <CO2Games> I guess it's testing time 21:52:28 <CO2Games> 65536 cells per tape now 21:52:42 <dbc> Good number. 21:52:51 <CO2Games> why? 21:53:01 <CO2Games> Because it's the maximum a short can point to? 21:53:32 <dbc> It's part of the series 0, 1, 2, 4, 16, 65536... 21:53:48 <tusho> hi dbc 21:53:56 <dbc> which are my favorite numbers. 21:54:00 <dbc> hi tusho. 21:54:24 <tusho> 65536 is a pretty bitchin' number 21:54:25 <tusho> gotta agree there 21:54:46 <dbc> (the one after that is too long to memorize) 21:55:45 <dbc> (and the one after THAT is too long to store anywhere) 21:57:29 <CO2Games> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 21:57:41 <CO2Games> tah dah 21:57:51 <oklopol> 1 5 5 7 7 3 8 23 98 124 8 8 345 2 2 947 21:58:04 <CO2Games> er? 21:58:13 <GreyKnight> :-) 21:58:30 <CO2Games> Now my long series of numbers simplified 21:58:31 <GreyKnight> is it Random Integer Sequence Day already? 21:58:43 <AnMaster> <dbc> (and the one after THAT is too long to store anywhere) 21:58:44 <GreyKnight> I haven't got a hat or anything! 21:58:45 <AnMaster> hm? 21:58:51 <AnMaster> dbc, you mean 2^64? 21:58:54 <AnMaster> no? 21:58:58 <dbc> No. 21:59:13 <AnMaster> dbc, what series then? 21:59:38 <dbc> f(n)=2^(f(n-1)). 21:59:44 <AnMaster> ah 22:00:01 <tusho> also known as "the powers of two" 22:00:01 <tusho> :P 22:00:05 <oklopol> 1 5 5 7 7 3 8 23 98 124 8 8 345 2 2 947 22:00:05 <AnMaster> yes 22:00:07 <dbc> Nope. 22:00:10 <AnMaster> was trying to work it out 22:00:13 <AnMaster> actually no 22:00:14 <oklopol> fucking touchpad. 22:00:35 <AnMaster> dbc, some hyper operator? 22:00:39 <AnMaster> no wait no 22:01:01 <CO2Games> 1 10 100 1000 10000 100000 1000000 10000000 100000000 1000000000 10000000000 100000000000 1000000000000 22:01:29 <CO2Games> 10000000000000 22:01:35 <CO2Games> 100000000000000 22:01:40 <CO2Games> agh I'm lost 22:01:45 <CO2Games> too many zeros 22:01:51 <AnMaster> dbc, you mean: f(1) -> 1; f(N) -> math:pow(2,f(N-1)). 22:01:53 <CO2Games> *brain segfaults* 22:01:53 <AnMaster> (in erlang) 22:02:39 <dbc> Yeah, but start with f(0) -> 0 instead. 22:02:53 <oklopol> 1 5 5 7 7 3 8 23 98 124 8 8 345 2 2 947 22:02:57 <oklopol> ... 22:02:59 <oklopol> and again 22:03:00 <AnMaster> dbc, ah 22:03:03 <AnMaster> dbc, you know erlang btw? 22:03:11 <dbc> I don't. 22:04:10 <AnMaster> 4> X = fun(0) -> 0; (N) -> math:pow(2,f(N-1)) end. 22:04:10 <AnMaster> #Fun<erl_eval.6.13229925> 22:04:12 <AnMaster> in an erlang shell 22:04:20 <AnMaster> special syntax needed there 22:04:36 <AnMaster> "anonymous" function 22:04:51 <CO2Games> NOOOOOOOOO 22:04:55 <CO2Games> My tape is broken 22:04:58 <AnMaster> actually that won't work 22:05:00 <CO2Games> The constructor doesn't work 22:05:06 <dbc> Figured. fun vs f. 22:05:25 <AnMaster> dbc, need to ask in #erlang now 22:06:20 <AnMaster> dbc, the normal syntax would work in a compiled erlang module htough 22:06:22 <AnMaster> though* 22:07:20 <AnMaster> <ttyerl> Y = fun(0, X) -> 0; (N, X) -> X(N-1) end. 22:07:23 <AnMaster> hehe of course 22:08:08 <AnMaster> 11> X = fun(0, Y) -> 0; (N, Y) -> math:pow(2, Y(N-1, Y)) end. 22:08:09 <AnMaster> that works 22:08:20 <GreyKnight> CO2Games: the typical life of a program of this sort is that eventually the author rewrites it from scratch at some point. ;-) It is actually a good thing because, having written one once, he has now figured out how to do it even better! 22:08:49 <CO2Games> heh 22:09:20 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, unless he or she wrote it in a functional language, in a modular way, and with good design 22:09:27 <AnMaster> then he or she should easily fix it 22:09:36 <tusho> AnMaster: no 22:09:39 <tusho> always throw one away. 22:09:40 <AnMaster> tusho, yes 22:09:44 <AnMaster> tusho, depends 22:09:45 <tusho> even in functional languages 22:09:49 <tusho> it is a basic principle of software design 22:10:01 <tusho> write one knowing that you will throw it away, then throw it away and write another 22:10:03 <AnMaster> tusho, well yes, you throw the first interpreter away 22:10:12 <tusho> otherwise you get bloated, overengineered programs 22:10:13 <AnMaster> I threw away bashfunge really 22:10:15 <GreyKnight> AnMaster: actually, in any language, you can often get some improvements. Great modularity means you can throw bits of it away at a time, is all ;-) 22:10:17 <AnMaster> and wrote cfunge instead 22:10:18 <tusho> not that AnMaster would know anything about *those*... 22:10:26 <AnMaster> tusho, I already done it that way :) 22:10:36 <dbc> I've been trying to think what's the best way to match brackets in self-modifying variants of brainfuck. It can be done for constant cost added to increment and decrement (for the code "tape")... 22:10:37 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, indeed 22:10:45 <AnMaster> I replaced large parts of cfunge several times 22:10:47 <tusho> actually, writing a program with a kafka book as guidance would be lulzy 22:10:52 <AnMaster> since it is coded in modular C 22:11:02 <GreyKnight> (of course, in order to learn how to *do* good design in the first place usually involves a lot of throwing away on prior projects) 22:12:35 <AnMaster> dbc, only issue with that erlang code uses math:pow which returns floating point values 22:12:40 <AnMaster> so it can't compute the next value 22:12:48 <AnMaster> normal erlang numbers are bignums 22:12:51 <dbc> Ah. 22:12:58 <AnMaster> so for integers it would work 22:13:08 <AnMaster> and I don't feel like writing my own pow 22:13:45 <AnMaster> dbc, actually math:pow/1 to be specific above ;) 22:14:08 <AnMaster> (oh yes, erlang got strange notation for referring to functions, it is name/<count of parameters>) 22:14:12 <dbc> (I used gnu bignum library to get the next number a long time ago, so I don't need such a program myself) 22:14:22 <AnMaster> (if parameter count differs then it is different functions) 22:14:57 * AnMaster calls q(). in the shell 22:15:15 <AnMaster> (alias for init:stop/1) 22:15:33 <AnMaster> hm no 22:15:35 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:15:38 <AnMaster> init:stop/0 actually 22:15:43 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:15:46 <AnMaster> stop/1 is different one 22:16:09 <dbc> CO2, how do you modify the code tape anyway? Or do you? 22:16:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there? 22:16:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I got a question about conforming funges in exceptional circumstances! 22:17:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for example, what if the programming language the funge is written in *can't* return a specific exit code to the shell. Or if the language will always print the return value of the function before exiting? 22:17:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does that prevent implementing Befunge-98 in such a language? or does it count as a special circumstance 22:17:40 <AnMaster> after all it is actually the shell of the interpreter of the interpreter that prints it out 22:17:47 <AnMaster> not the befunge interpreter itself 22:17:53 <AnMaster> so it is really not a part of it 22:18:03 <AnMaster> but a part of the shell (erlang shell or whatever) it runs in 22:18:52 <fizzie> That's not so strange: Prolog uses "predicate/arity" notation too. 22:19:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway what do you think about the return value and stuff issue? 22:19:29 <AnMaster> the befunge interpreter won't run from command line either 22:19:34 <AnMaster> you will need something like: 22:19:41 <AnMaster> $ erl 22:19:45 <AnMaster> Erlang (BEAM) emulator version 5.6.3 [source] [64-bit] [async-threads:0] [hipe] [kernel-poll:false] 22:19:46 <AnMaster> Eshell V5.6.3 (abort with ^G) 22:19:46 <AnMaster> 1> 22:20:00 <AnMaster> then enter efunge:run("path/to/program.b98"). 22:20:01 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p554424121.txt 22:20:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm? 22:20:14 <fizzie> I haven't been really following all this, only just arrived back here. 22:20:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, question was just about 5 lines above 22:20:44 <fizzie> Oh, there. 22:20:47 <AnMaster> 8-5 lines before your comment 22:21:23 <AnMaster> oklopol, wow 22:21:35 <AnMaster> oklopol, and the next step? 22:21:37 <AnMaster> ;) 22:21:44 <AnMaster> oklopol, anyway you can't call that on 7 22:22:00 <AnMaster> so xrange 10... 22:22:20 <AnMaster> I assume that means {0..10} 22:23:28 <fizzie> Personally I wouldn't really care about the "q" exit code missing if there's a reasonable reason. 22:23:41 <oklopol> AnMaster: what? 22:24:00 -!- GreyKnight has quit ("zzzzz"). 22:24:11 <oklopol> xrange(10)=[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9], yes 22:24:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, well it wouldn't be missing. since everything has a return value in erlang, and the shell prints that out when the function returns 22:24:49 <AnMaster> it would look like: 22:25:49 <fizzie> Well, that's certainly good enough. 22:25:57 <AnMaster> hm 22:26:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait 22:26:02 <AnMaster> hit a bug 22:26:09 <AnMaster> I got a befunge93 version here 22:26:21 <AnMaster> odd bug 22:27:16 <Mony> 'night 22:27:19 <AnMaster> ah 22:27:23 <AnMaster> didn't like ~ in paths 22:27:24 <fizzie> No, really, I got the point; if your interpreter is a function under some sort of "eval"-type situation, I think you can and should substitute the "exit code" of the spec with "return value". 22:27:31 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire..."). 22:27:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://rafb.net/p/NJr9IR26.html 22:27:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, the code is compiled, to bytecode 22:27:58 <AnMaster> which is then run under the erlang vm 22:28:08 <AnMaster> also I figured out how to do FPDP here 22:28:12 <AnMaster> it is really nifty 22:28:15 <AnMaster> want to hear? 22:28:23 <AnMaster> you can't do the union style trick 22:28:23 <AnMaster> but 22:28:38 <AnMaster> you can make the stack, a list, contain other stuff than integers 22:28:45 <AnMaster> so you make a tuple: 22:28:52 <AnMaster> {float, <value>} 22:29:22 <AnMaster> now if your normal routines pop that, then you just let to code see some dummy value 22:29:33 <AnMaster> apart from of course keeping track of the metadata still 22:29:39 <AnMaster> so it is handled if pushed back 22:29:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, think that would work? :D 22:30:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, I plan to make it befunge 98 and then implement MVRS 22:30:57 <AnMaster> when I get some time 22:31:05 <fizzie> With a non-homogenous container like a list that can store anything, sure, I don't see why you couldn't stick type-tagged tuples in there for the uncommon case. 22:31:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes, just need to handle it gracefully if the befunge program tries to do something strange with it 22:31:40 <AnMaster> like, say, add an integer 22:31:49 <fizzie> Does FPDP even define what happens then? 22:31:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, nop 22:31:59 <AnMaster> but shouldn't crash at least 22:32:04 <AnMaster> I will probably make it reflect 22:32:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, one issue though 22:32:43 <AnMaster> erlang doesn't have single/double 22:32:48 <AnMaster> it just have floating point 22:33:31 <AnMaster> I got no idea what type of float 22:33:40 <AnMaster> could even be long double 22:34:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway this befunge-93 is already turing complete, it got bignums 22:34:18 <AnMaster> :) 22:34:32 <AnMaster> oh however input is weird 22:34:34 <AnMaster> doesn't work well 22:34:42 <fizzie> Google says Erlang uses IEEE 754 64-bit floats, i.e. doubles. 22:34:43 <AnMaster> shows [] as a prompt all the time 22:36:06 <fizzie> I have a piece of Perl for writing MATLAB's binary ".mat" file format which stores the desired MATLAB type of the value by "bless"ing (Perl's curious class system here) it to a class name indicating the type. 22:36:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, huhu 22:37:11 <fizzie> If I were inclined to write a Perl-based Funge thing, which I don't, I guess I would do FPDP and friends by sticking in the stack a reference to a scalar blessed to Funge98::Float or something. It would be appropriately perverse. 22:38:13 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:40:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, hehe 22:42:58 <tusho> yay, http://eso-std.org/ has been all improved (note to people seeing it the first time: not the design that will be used for ESO's site but just for my personal blog) 22:43:01 <tusho> lots of little tweaks 22:44:19 <AnMaster> tusho, even worse in ff2 now 22:44:28 <tusho> AnMaster: screenshot? :P 22:44:31 <fizzie> Incidentally.. is FPDP usally done by using two consecutive stack cells or something? I think I've seen talk like that here, although I haven't really been reading very carefully. If so, does it actually say so anywhere in the spec? Is there any spec other than the RC/Funge manual? 22:44:49 <AnMaster> tusho, sure, once I recover from the brain damage 22:44:52 <AnMaster> of seeing it 22:45:03 <tusho> brain damage causing site 22:45:03 <tusho> awesome 22:45:33 <AnMaster> tusho, firefox crashed 22:45:35 <AnMaster> wait a bit 22:45:38 <AnMaster> it is just buggy 22:45:45 <AnMaster> firefox I mean 22:45:45 <tusho> AnMaster: firefox 3 doesn't crash 22:45:46 <tusho> :) 22:45:52 <AnMaster> tusho, not on the site 22:46:00 <AnMaster> tusho, just by having 3 lines of tabs in general 22:46:13 <tusho> psht i have like 300 tabs open at once 22:47:38 -!- Judofyr has quit. 22:48:13 <fizzie> At work approximately every ~100th time I try to plot something -- especially if it's a "pcolor" style spectrogram plot -- it goes and kills my X server. It is very very very very annoying, and I haven't really figured out a really good workaround for it. 22:48:32 <fizzie> The previous sentence was supposed to have the word MATLAB in there somewhere. 22:48:37 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure where. 22:48:45 <fizzie> Anyway, MATLAB's the "it" there. 22:48:48 <tusho> https://browsershots.org/screenshots/0269e9f697ee09b438699e1bb2ed4501/ 22:48:50 <tusho> that _is_ bad 22:48:53 <tusho> but totally not my fault 22:48:54 <tusho> :) 22:49:04 <tusho> just the same "elements it don't know can't be styled" 22:49:24 <fizzie> (I don't usually use FF3 for plotting.) 22:50:33 <AnMaster> tusho, http://omploader.org/vcTJ2 22:50:43 <tusho> yea 22:50:48 <tusho> AnMaster: gimme a sec 22:50:56 <AnMaster> tusho, well, just consider that design bad 22:51:05 <tusho> AnMaster: no, just consider that browser broken 22:51:11 <AnMaster> tusho, compatiblity 22:51:12 <AnMaster> ! 22:51:17 <tusho> fuck that. 22:51:23 <tusho> the people I know use firefox 3 and IE 7 22:51:29 <tusho> i don't really give a shit about anything els 22:51:30 <tusho> e 22:51:45 <tusho> my code is totally valid & 100% semantic 22:51:50 <AnMaster> with that attitude, no more testing from me 22:51:53 <tusho> it works in the two browsers that will actually visit my blog 22:51:57 <tusho> and that's the end ofi t 22:52:17 <tusho> AnMaster: i didn't actually needed your testing 22:52:22 <tusho> but you were nearby so i told you to 22:52:27 <tusho> i could have asked someone else 22:54:42 <tusho> anyway, yay, all i need now is tusho.net 22:55:16 <fizzie> Valid and valid; the doctype doesn't even say what sort of HTML it is. 22:56:34 <tusho> fizzie: html 5. 22:56:39 <tusho> currently a draft. 22:56:44 <tusho> http://validator.nu/ is an html 5 validator 22:56:57 <tusho> and <!DOCTYPE html> is the actual html 5 doctype 22:57:21 <tusho> hmm 22:57:25 <tusho> its not actually valid html5 22:57:26 <tusho> lemme fix that 23:00:43 <tusho> http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Feso-std.org%2F 23:00:44 <tusho> done 23:04:55 <fizzie> For some reason that whole "doctype is just trickery to trigger a rendering mode in browsers" thing makes me feel vaguely uneasy. I do understand the rationale, it's just an emotional thing. 23:05:08 <tusho> fizzie: html 5 is pragmatic 23:05:23 <tusho> doctypes today ARE just for triggering rendering modes, and remembering them is hell anyway 23:05:40 <tusho> so the html 5 guys discovered a doctype that makes stuff go into standards mode and has no version and is easy to remember 23:05:43 <tusho> <!DOCTYPE html>, voila. 23:06:44 <fizzie> Yes, I did say I understood the rationale. 23:07:15 <AnMaster> I still think <!DOCTYPE html 5> or so would have been saner 23:07:21 <tusho> AnMaster: no 23:07:24 <tusho> because that's not a valid doctype 23:07:25 <fizzie> I think I'm just being contradictionary for no reason; I like the Perl pragmatism, but for some reason I don't like it in HTML. 23:07:27 <AnMaster> tusho, true 23:07:30 <tusho> and also, versioning is dead 23:07:36 <tusho> for html 23:07:46 <AnMaster> tusho, what will happen to xthml in the future 23:07:49 <AnMaster> I bet it won't die 23:07:54 <tusho> AnMaster: HTML 5 can be expressed as XML 23:07:56 <tusho> and is called XHTML 5 23:08:02 <AnMaster> tusho, that was not my question 23:08:17 <AnMaster> xhtml 1.1 xhtml 2.0 maybe 23:08:19 <AnMaster> and so on 23:08:37 <AnMaster> tusho, ? 23:08:41 <tusho> meh 23:08:47 <AnMaster> what about them? 23:08:59 <tusho> AnMaster: xhtml 2.0 will probably be finalized in 10 years and a grand total of 3 people will use it 23:09:09 <tusho> xhtml 1.1 will continue to be used by a fringe 23:09:11 <AnMaster> tusho, [citation needed] 23:09:22 <tusho> AnMaster: xhtml 2.0 has absolutely no steam behind it 23:09:30 <tusho> and is losing pace compared to a snail 23:09:33 <AnMaster> tusho, ok. xhtml 1.1 still does 23:09:37 <tusho> AnMaster: not much. 23:09:43 <AnMaster> and that was the [citation needed] 23:09:46 <tusho> a fringe of geeks use it ... that's it 23:09:55 <AnMaster> tusho, [citation needed] 23:09:58 <tusho> AnMaster: you go out and find me some xhtml 1.1 websites 23:09:59 <tusho> i'll wait here 23:10:22 <AnMaster> sure, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge/ 23:10:23 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/ :p 23:10:26 <AnMaster> just the first one 23:10:31 <tusho> AnMaster: ok, that's one, and it's fringe 23:10:38 <tusho> it's a nerd's site for an esoteric language interpreter 23:10:40 <fizzie> "I'm not a fridge!" 23:10:53 <tusho> fizzie: nerd's tiny site with fringe info. 23:11:27 <AnMaster> tusho, what about xhtml 1.0 then? 23:11:41 <tusho> AnMaster: it's used pretty widely and will probably continue to 23:11:53 <tusho> prediction: html 5 will slowly, but steadily gain steam 23:11:57 <AnMaster> tusho, http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/ 23:11:58 <AnMaster> HAH! 23:11:59 <AnMaster> ;P 23:12:05 <tusho> AnMaster: zomg!11121212 23:12:06 <tusho> ;) 23:12:07 <AnMaster> it is xhtml 1.1 itself 23:12:24 <tusho> but yeah, xhtml 1.1 isn't really very exciting and i doubt it'll see a huge influx of sites 23:12:25 <AnMaster> main w3.org is xhtml 1.0 23:12:31 <tusho> but html 5 is getting quite the buzz out there 23:12:44 <tusho> obviously growth will be sloooooow but i don't think it'll stop for a while 23:12:45 <AnMaster> tusho, between the geeks yeah 23:12:53 <tusho> AnMaster: geeks are the ones who make webpages 23:13:00 <AnMaster> tusho, fringe 23:13:01 <fizzie> http://xkcd.net/ is also XHTML 1.1, and it's at least popular, even if it's a "nerd" site. 23:13:02 <AnMaster> sorry 23:13:14 <tusho> I haven't seen xhtml 1.1 on a site targeted at non-geeks, though. 23:13:24 <AnMaster> tusho, html5 is so neardy 23:13:39 <tusho> AnMaster: you're misinterpreting my point and turning it around so you look like an idiot again 23:13:40 <tusho> just fyi 23:13:48 <AnMaster> tusho, show me *one* single site using html5, apart from your own and one that is actually advocating html5 23:13:53 <AnMaster> so blog about html5 doesn't count 23:14:06 <tusho> http://intertwingly.net/, http://diveintomark.org/ 23:14:13 <tusho> of course all of them are nerd sites now 23:14:28 <tusho> but the more it's specified and talked about, the more it's supported, the more non-geek sites will switch over 23:14:53 <tusho> intertwingly.net is XHTML 5 23:14:54 <tusho> btw 23:16:22 <CO2Games> dbc: I intend to add code-tape modification commands 23:16:42 <CO2Games> Also I can't get my thingy to work now 23:18:19 <AnMaster> tusho, all lighttpd's auto generated directory indexes are XHTML 1.1 23:18:29 <AnMaster> so that means a lot of sites probably 23:18:32 <tusho> AnMaster: that hardly counts as a site ;) 23:18:41 <AnMaster> tusho, counts once for every site :P 23:18:50 <AnMaster> tusho, waht does apache use? 23:18:55 <AnMaster> I guess xhtml 1.0 23:18:57 <tusho> no 23:18:59 <AnMaster> but I don't know 23:19:00 <tusho> doctype-less 23:19:04 <AnMaster> not html 5 anyway 23:19:04 <tusho> and <UPPERCASE TAGS> 23:19:05 <AnMaster> tusho, eww 23:19:09 <AnMaster> just eww 23:19:18 <tusho> AnMaster: that code probably hasn't been touched since 1995 23:19:24 <AnMaster> tusho, I hope html 5 forbids uppercase tags! 23:19:29 <tusho> no 23:19:35 <AnMaster> ok that is eww 23:19:37 <CO2Games> lowercase* 23:19:46 <AnMaster> lower case tags are better 23:19:50 <AnMaster> stop trying to troll CO2Games 23:19:51 <CO2Games> why would it be forbidden anyways 23:20:52 <CO2Games> reguardless, I can't get my interpreter to work 23:21:18 <CO2Games> drainfuck::>+[++++++++++>,----------]<[<]>>[.>]E 23:21:43 <CO2Games> It gets lost after the first loop ends 23:21:54 <CO2Games> Both with and without nested loop support 23:22:09 <CO2Games> So it wasn't the addition of the nested loop support that broke it 23:28:36 <fizzie> www.cpan.org is XHTML 1.1 and it's also sort-of for non-"geeks", since it's pretty much targeted to all Perl programmers. I'm having trouble thinking of "non-geek" sites given that the places I visit... 23:33:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, same 23:39:13 <tusho> fizzie: is it served application/xml+xhtml 23:39:17 <tusho> if not, it's not xhtml 1.1 23:39:24 <tusho> it specifically disallows sending it as text/html 23:42:45 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:43:00 -!- oklopol has joined. 23:43:10 <fizzie> tusho: Could I have a citation on that? The XHTML 1.1 spec I have says "XHTML 1.1 documents SHOULD be labeled with -- application/xhtml+xml" 23:43:22 <tusho> fizzie: it's somewhere in the spec 23:44:03 <fizzie> I don't think it can be, if they already say SHOULD there. 23:44:14 <tusho> it's in some appendix of the xhtml 1.0 spec, then 23:44:18 <tusho> but it definitely is somewhere 23:44:27 <fizzie> That's not the XHTML 1.1 spec. 23:44:48 <tusho> fizzie: yo 23:44:48 <tusho> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/#summary 23:44:52 <tusho> SHOULD NOT 23:45:14 <tusho> even if it is valid, browsers treat it as invalid html 4 23:45:15 <tusho> http://hixie.ch/advocacy/xhtml 23:45:35 <fizzie> SHOULD NOT does not equal "specifically disallows". 23:46:22 <fizzie> On the other hand, cpan.org has their doctype public ID wrong, I think. 23:47:04 <AnMaster> good you beat tusho 23:47:14 <tusho> AnMaster: because it's a fucking war 23:47:20 <tusho> jesus christ you are so childish, everything is about beating or winning 23:47:29 <tusho> i'm having what is referred to as a DISCUSSION 23:47:31 <AnMaster> tusho, hope you learn the difference between should and must in standards from now on 23:47:47 <tusho> AnMaster: go fuck yourself, i misremembered the standard, so fucking what 23:47:47 <AnMaster> tusho, and I'm just adapting to your style 23:47:50 <AnMaster> childish I mean 23:47:55 <tusho> AnMaster: you're just trolling actually 23:48:13 <tusho> "adapting to someone's supposed style to irritate them" = "trolling" 23:48:30 <fizzie> I have no idea how to ask my Firefox "what do you think about this page?", but at least page info says "Render Mode: Standards compliance mode". I'm a bit disappointed that it doesn't say what standards those are. 23:48:31 <AnMaster> tusho, I mean adapt as in do the same as you do 23:48:32 <AnMaster> :) 23:48:39 <AnMaster> hoped you would feel a home 23:48:41 <AnMaster> at* 23:48:47 <tusho> AnMaster: see, that is plainly trolling 23:48:58 <AnMaster> tusho, how so? 23:49:00 <tusho> "Aww! I'm doing the same thing you do! Doesn't it piss you off? Haha!" 23:49:13 <tusho> 1. you are not doing what i do, you are exaggerating what you think I do 23:49:14 <AnMaster> tusho, iirc "When in Rome do like the Romans" is an English proverb? 23:49:16 <AnMaster> right? 23:49:25 <tusho> AnMaster: and also a bullshit one 23:49:32 <AnMaster> tusho, I disagree 23:49:55 <tusho> AnMaster: you're just trying to piss me off by acting like an exaggerated version of what you see me as, which is completely unrelated to how i am 23:50:01 <tusho> that is pretty much the definition of trolling. 23:50:06 <AnMaster> adapting to the local culture is better than trying some imperialist style and imposing on other 23:50:15 <AnMaster> as the English did with their colonies 23:50:16 <AnMaster> sadly 23:50:24 <AnMaster> of course that is unrelated to modern time 23:50:56 <tusho> AnMaster: you're portraying yourself as some wonderful person who adapts to people to fit in 23:51:06 <tusho> you're just acting annoying to piss me off, and don't try and fucking sugar-coat it 23:52:03 <AnMaster> tusho, I'd say it was rather successful if your interpretation was correct. and sadly rather a failure if you respect the truth that I just said about it 23:52:18 <tusho> yes, yes it has pissed me off. congratu-fucking-lations, you are able to piss people off. 23:52:20 <tusho> what a wonderful powre. 23:52:22 <tusho> *power 23:52:25 <tusho> pissing people off is _easy_. 23:52:26 <AnMaster> (probably non-idiomatic) 23:52:48 <tusho> AnMaster: now you may _NEVER_ accuse me of being a troll again, lest I accuse you of being an utter hypocrite 23:52:58 <AnMaster> tusho, ooh a super power? Captain piss off? The piss-off man? 23:53:00 * AnMaster ducks 23:53:02 <tusho> i hope that it was worth giving that up, since you seem to do it very often. 23:53:18 <AnMaster> tusho, of course I am a hypocrite, like you are 23:53:40 <AnMaster> tusho, and you still troll more than I do 23:53:44 <AnMaster> this was a joke 23:53:46 <AnMaster> not trolling 23:54:00 <tusho> AnMaster: just shut the fuck up. you're being immature, trolling, being hypocritical, and shouting random accusations without bias. i am going now, i dearly hope you are less of an idiot/asshole in the morning 23:54:01 -!- tusho has quit. 23:54:29 <AnMaster> hhehe 2008-09-06: 00:56:19 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:56:35 -!- oklopol has joined. 01:29:09 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:20:43 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:45:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | so the bot is still around I see. 03:47:43 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:48:07 <CO2Games> Ahh! 03:48:16 <CO2Games> err wrong channel 04:02:48 <CO2Games> Yay my parser works again 04:03:18 <CO2Games> And now with nested loops! 04:03:44 <CO2Games> Someone got a test program with nested loops for me? 04:15:18 <CO2Games> Nevermind then 06:01:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:34:29 -!- calamari has joined. 07:17:32 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Jesus loves you"). 07:20:02 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:28:05 -!- Mony has joined. 08:28:27 <Mony> hi 08:53:54 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:42:10 <AnMaster> yay, efunge now handles input correctly, buffered like cfunge and ccbi 09:42:26 <AnMaster> efunge is still just befunge93, but :) 09:45:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i guess there doesn't have to be a reason. 09:46:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there? 09:47:05 <AnMaster> mycouser.b98 only *almost* work in befunge-93 09:47:10 <AnMaster> there is one cosmetic bug 09:47:15 <AnMaster> "UNDEF: STRN fingerprint not loaded, wo<n't check I." 09:47:24 <AnMaster> prints a < extra in befunge-93 09:47:48 <AnMaster> I verified it was related to 93 vs. 98 spaces by using cfunge 09:52:26 <oklopol> CO2Games: a nested bf program or what? 09:53:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: might not be able to do anything about that without moving that stuff out of befunge-93 :-/ 09:53:40 <Deewiant> I remember that particular < being a pain 09:53:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah ok... 09:54:24 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 09:54:29 <oklopol> hi KingOfKarlsruhe 09:54:30 <oklopol> ! 09:54:33 <Deewiant> i.e. I can make it work in either -93 or -98 but not both 09:54:43 <KingOfKarlsruhe> hi oklopol 09:55:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw if I make efunge 98 at any point the only part I will keep of current code will be the stack code, because the stack code is beautiful 09:56:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and I figured out how to do FPDP, I can't do a union hack, so I thought, why not push a tuple like {float, <data>} on the stack, then handle tagged tuples like that specially elsewhere 09:56:34 <AnMaster> so if normal + ever tries to use it I could push a 0 or whatever 09:56:39 <AnMaster> see what I mean? 09:56:50 <AnMaster> or even reflect 09:56:55 <Deewiant> you'd have to ask Mike whether that's valid 09:57:08 <AnMaster> well the specs doesn't say it isn't 09:57:41 <Deewiant> well the specs don't say squat anyway 09:57:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also the erlang shell will always print the return value of the program, so that will be the exit code 09:57:54 <AnMaster> it will not be possible to run directly from shell I think 09:58:01 <Deewiant> I think referring to Mike's specs is always a mistake since they're so vague that they allow most anything anyway :-P 09:58:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well either that way or skip implementing FPDP at all 09:58:30 <AnMaster> FPSP will be impossible 09:58:36 <AnMaster> since erlang doesn't have single 09:58:54 <AnMaster> it have integer bignum or double 09:58:59 <AnMaster> that's all for numbers 09:59:29 <AnMaster> of course I guess you could mess around with <<>> binaries and bit packing... 09:59:37 <AnMaster> probably not for float though 10:01:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: hmm, I suppose you have a -93 interpreter around: can you change the last char in line 13 in mycouser.b98 from a space to X and add a $ near the right edge of line 2 and see if that works in -93 10:02:18 <AnMaster> a sec 10:02:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, where on line 2? 10:03:00 <AnMaster> before the v$ ? 10:03:03 <Deewiant> the right edge, where there are many $s anyway 10:03:11 <Deewiant> just add a third after the two that are there 10:03:20 <AnMaster> a sec 10:03:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, worked 10:04:03 <Deewiant> yay 10:11:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/7VdQNs57.html 10:11:33 <AnMaster> see why normal rules about exit code can't apply 10:11:39 <AnMaster> yes 0 is the return value 10:11:45 <AnMaster> but... 10:11:53 <AnMaster> the erlang shell always print it 10:12:11 <Deewiant> well if you can't do it then you can't do it 10:12:13 <AnMaster> and q(). was me exiting the erlang vm 10:12:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so can it still be valid Befunge-98? 10:12:29 <AnMaster> if I took it that far 10:12:36 <Deewiant> depends on how strictly you want to read the standard 10:13:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does it say OS return code? If you could interpret it as return code to the interpreters environment that environment could mean the erlang shell 10:13:23 <AnMaster> :) 10:13:28 <Deewiant> if you want, you can read "the operating system" as "the host system" and it becomes your interpreter 10:13:33 <Deewiant> so yes, exactly 10:13:50 <AnMaster> would you read it that way? 10:14:00 <Deewiant> I don't care 10:14:23 <AnMaster> assuming you updated your mycology results page at some point I mean ;P 10:15:15 <AnMaster> anyway if I would make this befunge-98 I would rewrite everything but the stack code from scratch 10:15:19 <Deewiant> if I were you I'd just put it in a readme or somewhere that because of the way Erlang works, can't return to the OS, return it as result of function call (or whatever that is) instead 10:16:31 <Deewiant> so I'd say "as close to 100% compliant as is possible in Erlang" or whatever 10:16:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it can do free standing programs... but: 1) it is messier 2) I plan to use this integrated into other software + mix this up to implement async style MVRS. It would not be a free standing program but a distributed befunge node network ;) 10:16:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I guess I could try to write a wrapper 10:17:06 <AnMaster> still think that will print the return value though 10:17:07 <Deewiant> well then I'd say "100% compliant but the OS is not the host OS, it's the Erlang OS" 10:17:28 <Deewiant> I mean, whatever. It's not important :-P 10:17:33 <AnMaster> also I haven't got command line parameter parsing to work at all 10:17:40 <AnMaster> have to figure that out 10:17:48 <AnMaster> heh 10:18:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm also considering the possibility to have weird fingerprints like: W^X. that is memory protection on cell regions in befunge 10:19:06 <AnMaster> so you can mark code as write protected or no-execute or such 10:19:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:19:16 <Deewiant> feral much? ;-) 10:19:18 <AnMaster> just because it would be so weird to do that in befunge 10:19:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a lot :) 10:19:37 <AnMaster> but cfunge really have problems with feral fingerprints, really bad problems 10:19:43 <AnMaster> hard to add stuff to code 10:19:57 <AnMaster> with efunge I think a lot of stuff that would be feral in cfunge would actually be rather tame 10:20:25 <AnMaster> for example adding per-ip data? Just use a dict 10:20:42 <AnMaster> type-tagged values on stack too 10:20:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, basically the initial design will allow much more feral stuff 10:21:00 <Deewiant> exactly, feralness is dependent on many things which is why I think it's a stupid concept 10:21:03 <AnMaster> still... *NO* TRDS 10:21:08 <AnMaster> never 10:21:09 <Deewiant> REFC is feral in a purely functional language because global state is ferla 10:21:11 <Deewiant> s/la/al/ 10:21:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, TRDS is always feral 10:21:22 <Deewiant> probably yes 10:21:45 <AnMaster> everything is relative except the feralness(sp?) of TRDS ;P 10:21:52 <Deewiant> so the only ones we can really call feral thus far are TRDS and MVRS, the rest are relative :-P 10:22:18 <AnMaster> MVRS would be highly feral too, but efunge will be designed to support that from the beginning 10:22:42 <AnMaster> since the only current code I will keep is the stack code which actually came out clean, working and near perfect the first time 10:22:49 <AnMaster> while the other efunge code is kind of messy 10:23:11 <AnMaster> I need to look deeper into the design though before 10:23:36 <AnMaster> for example k will be painful I think 10:24:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, will you implement MVRS in ccbi? 10:25:05 <AnMaster> and if yes: will mycology test it? 10:31:54 -!- Judofyr has joined. 10:35:50 <Deewiant> probably, probably 10:38:08 <AnMaster> ok 10:43:05 <oklopol> OOOOOO 10:54:09 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:00:55 -!- tusho has joined. 11:02:26 <Mony> bye 11:02:30 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire..."). 11:07:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I got a TRDS question 11:08:04 <AnMaster> do you have time? 11:08:12 <AnMaster> heh (no pun intended) 11:08:16 <AnMaster> basically the issue is: 11:08:35 <AnMaster> * assume one ip (no t ever) 11:08:48 <AnMaster> 1. ip run to 200 11:09:01 <AnMaster> 2. the ip jumps back to 100 11:09:09 <AnMaster> 3. the ip does some changes 11:09:18 <AnMaster> 4. the ip jumps forward to 200 again. 11:09:22 <AnMaster> Will that work? 11:09:23 <AnMaster> because: 11:09:29 <AnMaster> "Time travel into the future is not quite so punishing. The ip that time travels will merely be frozen until time catches up with it, at which point it will continue to execute." 11:09:44 <AnMaster> that indicates that this would cause a lockup that can't be fixed 11:09:51 <AnMaster> or does the original ip still continue to run? 11:10:56 <AnMaster> what if it killed the old copy of itself at 3? 11:11:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ? 11:17:10 <oklopol> zzzzzzermelo 11:22:18 <tusho> oklopol: zermellllllo 11:27:57 <oklopol> wonder if he insisted on his friends calling him "sir mellow" 11:30:38 <Ilari> AnMaster: The way I see it, yes, the original IP continues to run. And if the original was killed, the jump to future just creates gap in time where nothing happens (but which can be jumped to)... 11:31:57 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 11:33:53 <oerjan> oklopol: since he spoke german not english, i doubt it 11:35:22 <oklopol> way to ruin my life there 11:36:00 <oerjan> well you can probably do something with "Herr" instead 11:36:50 <oerjan> since z = ts in german, it's not really a worse fit 11:37:13 <oerjan> (also in italian, where his name is probably from) 11:38:17 <oklopol> your head is full of lies! 11:38:56 <oerjan> according to buddhism, all words are lies 11:39:32 <oklopol> are you a buddhist? 11:39:56 <oerjan> not exactly 11:40:13 <oerjan> i don't hold much with that nirvana theory 11:41:50 <oklopol> i know a few people who call themselves buddhists, with the exception that they don't actually believe in anything 11:42:38 <oerjan> ah that's not me. i believe in something. i'm just not sure what it is. 11:42:45 <oerjan> :D 11:43:08 <oklopol> well i meant they only believe in their own senses, and in science where it seems appropriate 11:43:35 <Ilari> Hmm... How do TRDS and IIPC interact? :-) In practicular, IIPC:L looks bit problematic with time-travel... 11:43:44 <oklopol> what was iipc again? 11:44:06 <Ilari> oklopol: Inter Instruction Pointer Communication. 11:44:08 <oerjan> i vaguely recall that buddhism says you _shouldn't_ believe your own senses. or thoughts. 11:44:33 <oerjan> not too much, at any rate. 11:44:38 <Ilari> oklopol: L is stack peek (for another IP). 11:45:47 <oklopol> oerjan: well that makes no sense. 11:46:20 <oklopol> well, i guess you could believe in your own senses just enough to realize you shouldn't 11:46:41 <oerjan> well it is pretty scientifically established that senses are not entirely reliable 11:46:45 <oklopol> and i don't really know anything about buddhism, and don't really want to 11:46:50 <Ilari> Well, the question really is: Which copy should be poked? 11:47:15 <oklopol> they are reliable in the sense that you sense what you sense. 11:47:38 <oklopol> doesn't really matter whether it's the real world or a mirage 11:48:21 <oerjan> i am sure that all this discussion is really prejudiced compared to some deep, buddhist philosophical writing which neither of us have heard about 11:48:25 <oklopol> basically, that when you see something, you believe you experience seeing it. 11:48:44 <oklopol> :) 11:49:43 <oklopol> oerjan: that may be, but i'm sure whoever wrote that's mother. 11:49:55 <oerjan> er what 11:50:01 <oklopol> (whoever wrote that)'s mother 11:50:13 <oklopol> as a genetive 11:50:33 <oerjan> and also, buddhist probably don't agree more than anyone else on details 11:50:37 <oerjan> *buddhists 11:51:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, I would call myself an agnostic with a hint of Buddhism, a lot of Buddhism makes sense, and it doesn't conflict with science really, so well... 11:51:53 <oklopol> religion usually doesn't conflict with science, it's just it's useless 11:52:05 <AnMaster> after all the texts doesn't claim they are true, they are just a metaphor to describe something else 11:52:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, well just look at southern US then... 11:52:34 <oklopol> fuck, why did i promise to go see our bass player's other band play 11:52:39 <AnMaster> <Ilari> Hmm... How do TRDS and IIPC interact? :-) In practicular, IIPC:L looks bit problematic with time-travel... 11:52:59 <oklopol> AnMaster: i don't get the reference 11:53:02 <AnMaster> Ilari, TRDS probably conflicts with a lot... 11:53:07 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm? 11:53:08 <oklopol> what about southern us? 11:53:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, well you know how much they are against evolution? 11:53:26 <AnMaster> preferring "god did it" 11:53:43 <oklopol> well sure, i'm not saying religion can't be a bad thing 11:53:48 <oklopol> just that it can't be a good thing 11:53:54 <AnMaster> oklopol, "religion usually doesn't conflict with science" 11:53:56 <AnMaster> that isn't true 11:54:30 <AnMaster> oklopol, you still need some type of philosophy or such to provide a set of moral rules 11:54:48 <AnMaster> that is basically what religion is actually useful for 11:54:51 <oklopol> not really. 11:55:08 <AnMaster> oklopol, no? 11:55:12 <oklopol> no 11:55:28 <oklopol> but you're right from the perspective of someone who likes the society to work 11:55:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm? 11:55:41 <oklopol> it's just you can supply these morals without adding a god 11:55:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, agreed 11:56:06 <oklopol> "likes it if the society works", ig uess 11:56:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, Buddhism doesn't add any god 11:56:12 <oklopol> *i guess 11:56:18 <oklopol> maybe "prefers a working society" 11:56:39 <oklopol> AnMaster: god as in something that cannot be proved 11:56:50 <oklopol> an axiom 11:57:21 <oklopol> we don't need an axiom, we need a set of rules, and a set of physical punishments for breaking them 11:57:24 <AnMaster> oklopol, go tell that to the string theory scientists :P 11:58:35 <AnMaster> oklopol, also, you need some axioms according to Gödel 12:00:03 <oklopol> in life, they shouldn't be given externally, people should decide their own axioms on the basis of the rules, and the punishments, perhaps even on their own beliefs about whether other people actually exist 12:00:28 <oklopol> i find it a bit silly to believe others exist, but it seems some people do believe that 12:00:49 <oklopol> can you imagine that, you being real, yeah right :D 12:00:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, you mean you don't think other people exist? 12:00:59 <AnMaster> huh 12:01:06 <oklopol> definitely not, it's all me 12:01:17 <AnMaster> oklopol, I suspect you are trolling now 12:01:36 <AnMaster> or need to visit a doctor to help with those heads *in* your head ;P 12:01:39 <oklopol> somewhat, i don't really believe either way :) 12:02:00 <oklopol> oh i have a lot of issues with my head 12:02:03 <oklopol> but i like them 12:02:11 <oklopol> i wish i were totally insane 12:02:13 <oklopol> well 12:02:21 <oklopol> not insane enough not to be able to appreciate it 12:02:27 <oerjan> "As against solipsism it is to be said, in the first place, that it is psychologically impossible to believe, and is rejected in fact even by those who mean to accept it. I once received a letter from an eminent logician, Mrs. Christine Ladd Franklin, saying that she was a solipsist, and was surprised that there were no others. Coming from a logician and a solipsist, her surprise surprised me." (Bertrand Russell) 12:02:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, a "solipsism" is? 12:03:05 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysical_solipsism 12:03:31 <oerjan> the theory that others don't exist 12:04:07 <oklopol> you gotta draw the line somewhere, i don't see why not draw it where the evidence stops 12:04:28 <oklopol> hmm 12:05:08 <oklopol> well i guess there's a great difference between not believing in anything but yourself, and believing you're the only one with a mind 12:06:04 <oklopol> also russell's argument works as a joke, but i don't see why a solipsist should be disallowed to personify the zombies where it's a useful abstraction 12:07:03 <oerjan> hm Franklin actually has a WP article 12:08:43 <oklopol> cool stuff 12:08:49 <oklopol> is it time to read? 12:08:51 <oklopol> i think so. 12:17:40 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:26:04 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 12:26:04 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 12:42:41 -!- Linus` has joined. 12:47:04 -!- oerjan has quit ("Cooffffeeeeeeee"). 13:16:07 -!- Linus` has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:21:48 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:22:38 <AnMaster> impressive, clang can compile large parts of ick 13:38:09 <tusho> AnMaster: if only they weren't liars 14:09:10 -!- Mony has joined. 14:10:05 <Mony> hi 14:22:10 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving."). 14:39:19 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 15:45:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ~exec print >>sys.stdout, self.raw_regex_queue[-1][1].f_code. 15:50:02 -!- oklopol has joined. 15:50:12 <oklopol> i think the halting problem proof is just circular logic 15:50:39 <oklopol> does the definition of turing-completeness actually say there must be programs that never halt? 15:51:01 <oklopol> hmm, actually i guess it does 15:51:34 <oklopol> i hate computability, every once in a while i start questioning it, only to find myself making an old mistake once again 15:53:36 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:53:45 -!- oklopol has joined. 16:21:01 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:21:14 -!- oklopol has joined. 16:26:00 <CO2Games> Hey I need some information 16:26:30 <CO2Games> Does lost kings depend on wrapping or is it ok if it goes into negative areas? 16:32:46 <AnMaster> CO2Games, memory should never wrap, however the integers in the cells must wrap and be 8-bit 16:32:50 <AnMaster> as we said before 16:33:12 <CO2Games> they absolutely must be 8-bit for lost kingdom? 16:33:13 <AnMaster> the tape iself not defined to wrap when you use < and/or > 16:33:26 <AnMaster> CO2Games, you know we discussed this before 16:33:35 <CO2Games> Uhh no 16:33:40 <CO2Games> I don't know 16:33:40 <AnMaster> yes we did 16:33:44 <AnMaster> yesterday 16:33:45 <CO2Games> Really? 16:33:52 <AnMaster> try your logs 16:33:57 <CO2Games> Err 16:33:57 <AnMaster> or logs in topic 16:34:06 <CO2Games> I don't keep logs 16:34:23 <AnMaster> links to logs are in /topic 16:34:42 <CO2Games> oh 16:34:46 <fizzie> Current topic is also perhaps a bit uninspired. 16:34:48 <fizzie> optbot! 16:34:49 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ok let me make it more familiar to you. 16:35:21 <fizzie> That just sounds like a come on. 16:35:26 <AnMaster> optbot! 16:35:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and most generate "Hello, world!\n" this one generates "Hello World!\n". 16:35:59 <fizzie> optbot: Please try to think of something funnier next time. 16:35:59 <optbot> fizzie: 1 to go 16:36:12 <fizzie> Let's see that one, then. 16:36:14 <fizzie> optbot! 16:36:14 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and what is "Reaumure"?. 16:36:22 <AnMaster> well what is it? 16:36:28 <fizzie> No clue. 16:36:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, topic good enough? 16:36:50 <CO2Games> optbot! 16:36:50 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | makes me appreciate python a lot more, thats for sure. 16:36:52 <olsner> it's a unit for something iirc 16:36:59 <fizzie> For temperature, it seems. 16:37:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw what funge interpreter do you use for fungot now? 16:37:11 <fungot> AnMaster: eval ( person-integer forcer) 16:37:13 <tusho> optbot! 16:37:13 <AnMaster> optbot! 16:37:14 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | main = putStr s >> print s where s = "main = putStr s >> print s where s = ". 16:37:20 <tusho> optbot! 16:37:21 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric |. 16:37:23 <tusho> hahahah 16:37:24 <tusho> win 16:37:25 <AnMaster> good one 16:37:26 <AnMaster> :D 16:37:30 <fizzie> Aw, the last one was quite appropriate for #esoteric. 16:37:34 <AnMaster> tusho, someone did a space line? 16:37:46 <AnMaster> 16:37:47 <tusho> AnMaster: 16:37:48 <AnMaster> like that? 16:37:58 <AnMaster> tusho, ah you think it was just that way? 16:38:07 <tusho> it strips a name 16:38:13 <CO2Games> Can someone here write me something with nested loops in brainfuck? 16:38:18 <tusho> and it didn't put a space 16:38:18 <AnMaster> tusho, oh and does it just handle <nick>: or also <nick>, 16:38:19 <tusho> just nothing 16:38:24 <tusho> AnMaster: both 16:38:32 <oklopol> CO2Games: ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+. 16:38:34 <AnMaster> CO2Games, sure, there is lost kingdom for example 16:38:38 <oklopol> oh nested loops 16:38:39 <tusho> oklopol: that isn't nested 16:38:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, not *nested* loops 16:38:45 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's still RC/Funge-98, with a tiny patch so that it can do the chroot/setuid stuff all by itself. Haven't bothered to change yet, even though cfunge would work now too. 16:38:52 <AnMaster> ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+. 16:38:52 <fungot> A 16:39:17 <CO2Games> My interperter doesn't support lost kingdom so something else 16:39:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, well cfunge need a more complex chroot I guess 16:39:25 <CO2Games> interpreter* 16:39:28 <AnMaster> and well chroot by itself.. you could add that 16:40:00 <CO2Games> chroot? are we talking bash? 16:40:20 <AnMaster> hm I think I have to ignore someone here soon.... 16:41:05 <oklopol> me me me! 16:41:09 <CO2Games> lol 16:41:15 <fizzie> Heh, fungot actually does s/^\S+[;:,]\s+// to the text, so it supports even my nonstandard "nick; foo" attributions. Although I've been using : lately because of you people. 16:41:16 <fungot> fizzie: i would suppose he is. but the same code on every other register, in which we use different names for integer-set and char-set. or change lexmod-name to fnord or keep logs 16:41:35 <oklopol> fizzie: because of us people? 16:42:01 <fizzie> oklopol: Someone here (tusho?) asked me why I don't use ":" like all right-thinking people. 16:42:07 <oklopol> oh 16:42:17 <fizzie> I didn't really have a good answer for that. 16:42:43 <tusho> fizzie: the problem with ; is that \S+[,:] is already cutting tons out 16:42:53 <CO2Games> Ok I've added dowhile {} and if () to my interpreter 16:43:05 <CO2Games> no ifelse yet though :\ 16:43:17 <tusho> AnMaster: ignore CO2Games? why? 16:43:34 <tusho> because you think you're smarter than him for knowing more unix terminology and being better at implementing brainfuck? 16:44:07 <CO2Games> hey AnMaster, rm -rf /*, do it now 16:44:25 <tusho> CO2Games: hm, clever, that'll actually work 16:44:28 <tusho> as opposed to rm -rf / 16:44:31 <tusho> which is specialcased 16:44:42 <CO2Games> heh I know from experience 16:44:59 <tusho> CO2Games: i doubt he's stupid enough to shell as root, though 16:45:05 <pikhq> CO2Games: ++[>++[>--<+]<+] 16:45:06 <CO2Games> sudo 16:45:10 <CO2Games> oh alright 16:45:12 <tusho> CO2Games: you didn't specify sudo 16:45:21 <CO2Games> oh well :\ 16:45:42 <CO2Games> thanks 16:45:44 <AnMaster> there are two versions it wouldn't work 16:45:44 <oklopol> AnMaster is clever enough to append sudo when that doesn't work 16:45:47 <AnMaster> 1) not using root 16:45:53 <AnMaster> 2) I'm not that stupid 16:45:58 <AnMaster> and actually 3 reasons: 16:46:00 <tusho> 2) disputed 16:46:07 <AnMaster> 3) / is mounted read only 16:46:11 <CO2Games> 1 is probably the case 16:46:16 <fizzie> There isn't really much in my logs that starts with \S+; and isn't either me doing "nick;", mooz doing "nick;" or some sort of code snippet. 16:46:18 <CO2Games> fine 16:46:19 <AnMaster> all 3 apply 16:46:22 <CO2Games> sudo mount 16:46:38 <CO2Games> now get the name of what's mounted at / 16:46:49 <CO2Games> and mount it again 16:46:58 <CO2Games> Or an even simpler idea 16:47:11 <CO2Games> Get a bucket of salt water, pull out the drive, and drop it right in. 16:48:04 <CO2Games> I think he actually did it rofl 16:48:12 <CO2Games> That or he has me on ignore 16:48:18 <CO2Games> Or he doesn't like talking 16:48:33 <CO2Games> Or he's established a background privmsg through nicknames network 16:48:37 <tusho> he has you on /ignore, i imagine. 16:48:48 <tusho> don't worry. you're not missing much. 16:48:55 <CO2Games> lol 16:49:45 <Ilari> More funky way for removing access to suid/sgid binaries would to fork in new namespace and then remount everything nosuid... And unmount /home and /var while at it... :-> 16:50:11 <CO2Games> that's interesting 16:50:47 <CO2Games> I hate how windows can deny me access to my folders 16:51:20 <CO2Games> D:\My backup - blah blah\backup\Documents and Settings\Owner\ - Permission Denied\ 16:51:27 <oklopol> :-) 16:51:42 <CO2Games> Even when I'm logged in as an administrator 16:52:35 <CO2Games> Oh but I boot into linux, I get them all fine 16:52:57 <CO2Games> Although I still have to teach it that it needs a different mounting setup at start 16:53:42 <CO2Games> /dev/sda1 is supposed to go to /media/library, and /dev/sda2 to /media/ruins 16:54:33 <CO2Games> and /dev/hda1 to /media/xp, /dev/hda2 to /media/backup 16:54:33 -!- oklofok has joined. 16:54:52 <CO2Games> Hmm 16:54:55 <CO2Games> 1 sec 16:56:24 <CO2Games> pikhq... 16:56:32 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:56:38 <CO2Games> Is the code you gave supposed to loop infinitely? 16:56:48 <CO2Games> err 16:56:53 <CO2Games> Almost infinitely? 16:57:14 <ais523> hi tusho 16:57:16 <ais523> <tusho> oh no 16:57:23 <tusho> :D 16:57:24 <tusho> hi ais523 16:57:41 <tusho> you'll note (probably not) that http://eso-std.org/ has changed, because I'm testing the design I'm going to use for my blog on it 16:57:51 <tusho> (note: try with firefox 3 or ie 7 everything else is too stupid to get it right) 16:57:58 <tusho> (and it is fully valid, it's just they have a stupid bug) 16:58:30 <ais523> tusho: does it work on IE8? And what in particular does everyone else get wrong? 16:58:38 <pikhq> CO2Games: It should eventually terminate. 16:58:43 <ais523> besides, it looks good on Konqueror 16:58:45 <tusho> ais523: it also works in webkit-based stuff but less so 16:58:50 <tusho> and no, it doesn't 16:58:52 <tusho> konqueror gets it wrong 16:58:53 <pikhq> It'll take a fairly long time to do so, of course. 16:58:58 <tusho> badly wrong 16:59:18 <tusho> ais523: anyway, the bug is that they don't let you style elements they don't recognise, which means that they don't let you style the HTML 5 elements I use 16:59:21 <tusho> that is 100% a bug on their side 16:59:33 <tusho> and since the only people who're gonna read my blog are people i know who use one of those two browsers, i don't care 16:59:36 <CO2Games> Hmm it seems to loop a lot 16:59:43 <pikhq> ... You use HTML 5 elements? 16:59:46 <CO2Games> maybe it's the fact that it's an unsigned short 16:59:52 <pikhq> I'm afraid that your website's the bug. 16:59:59 <tusho> pikhq: Why? 17:00:15 <tusho> http://intertwingly.net/, http://diveintomark.org/ <- two html5 websites, i could find more if i cared. 17:00:18 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:00:28 <pikhq> HTML5 is not a standard. 17:00:32 <ais523> tusho: it's generally considered to be a bad idea to code your website for standards that hardly anything supports yet, for pragmatic reasons 17:00:36 <pikhq> It's a series of draft documents. 17:00:40 <tusho> ais523: pragmatic reasons don't apply right now, though 17:00:45 <tusho> pikhq: the bits I use are stable, more or less. 17:00:51 <tusho> and i know very well, thanks, I'm in #whatwg 17:01:05 * pikhq beats tusho with a cluebat. 17:01:26 * tusho beats pikhq with a "it works on everything I care about, it's valid, the bits I use have been stable since forever, and most importantly I don't give a shit" bat 17:01:31 <pikhq> It's not a bug to not support an unfinished standard. 17:01:33 -!- oklofok has left (?). 17:01:39 <pikhq> Tusho: a man of anticlue. 17:01:41 <tusho> No, see, it's not specified in HTML 5. 17:01:46 <tusho> It's a bug in css 17:02:00 <tusho> in their css impl 17:02:13 <tusho> it should apply to html 4, even 17:02:23 <CO2Games> It's not terminating! 17:02:27 <pikhq> Funny, I didn't know CSS was supposed to apply style to unsupported elements. 17:02:50 <ais523> tusho: maybe the default stylesheet for an unsupported element has an !important in it somewhere, you can't prove otherwise 17:02:50 <tusho> It is. 17:03:07 <tusho> ais523: quite possible 17:03:18 <tusho> but unlikely ;) 17:03:23 <pikhq> CO2Games: You're doing it wrong. 17:03:25 <tusho> aalso I can prove otherwise 17:03:27 <tusho> firefox is open source. 17:03:31 <tusho> well, gecko in specific 17:03:36 <CO2Games> What why 17:04:01 <pikhq> tusho: BTW, your doctype declaration is wrong. :p 17:04:16 <tusho> pikhq: no. 17:04:16 <pikhq> CO2Games: Because the loop terminates. 17:04:20 <tusho> <!DOCTYPE html> is the html5 doctype. 17:05:36 <CO2Games> Interesting 17:05:37 * pikhq beats HTML5 with a stick. 17:05:43 <tusho> pikhq: http://annevankesteren.nl/2005/07/html5-doctype 17:05:46 <tusho> please read. thanks. 17:05:48 <CO2Games> Does this only work if they are unsigned CHARs? 17:06:42 <fizzie> Heh, I wasn't the only one who was surprised by that html5 doctype. (I'm probably still the only one who thinks it's somehow unclean without a reason.) 17:07:10 <CO2Games> I hate doctypes 17:07:20 <CO2Games> If it has html as the root tag, it's html 17:07:29 <CO2Games> I mean seriously 17:07:42 <pikhq> tusho: I'm one of the crazy people who thinks web browsers should use SGML parsers. 17:07:47 -!- ihope has joined. 17:07:57 <tusho> pikhq: You're in #esoteric, I'm pretty sure craziness is a given. 17:08:03 <ihope> So, an artificial intelligence operating system. 17:08:08 <tusho> But yea, less HTML 5 talk in here, I was just trying to inform ais523 :P 17:08:12 <CO2Games> GLaDOS? 17:08:13 <tusho> How does it look in FF3, ais523? 17:08:17 <tusho> I assume fine as it looks ok here 17:08:19 <tusho> but you never know... 17:08:24 <pikhq> I'm afraid that that's not a valid SGML doctype, so it's not strictly speaking valid HTML, even if it does validate. 17:08:25 <ihope> CO2Games: if someone's actually written GLaDOS, yes. 17:08:25 <ais523> tusho: it looks fine, ye 17:08:27 <pikhq> :p 17:08:28 <ais523> s/$/s/ 17:08:39 <ais523> grr, I seem to be in the habit of missing off the last letter of my sentences agai 17:08:42 <tusho> ais523: any suggestions? 17:08:55 <ihope> Seems simple enough: take an AI engine and stick an operating system on top of it. 17:08:57 <ais523> not particularly, as I actually like it, which is probably a first 17:09:05 <tusho> hm... maybe ESO could use it given a colour/font/background/etc rejiggle 17:09:09 <CO2Games> GLaDOS isn't AI 17:09:15 <ais523> by the way, I had a brilliant idea for designing a shell recently 17:09:23 <ais523> people get confused if they're new to the command line 17:09:27 <CO2Games> GLaDOS is real intelligence. 17:09:38 <CO2Games> It learns. AI is pre-programmed 17:09:46 <tusho> er, no 17:09:46 <ais523> so there should be a command which you just give various filenames to and it figures out for itself some of the things you might want to do with them 17:09:52 <tusho> any sort of reasonable AI will have some for m of learning 17:09:56 <fizzie> AI is bogus, as was famously said. 17:09:57 <tusho> intelligence requires it 17:10:04 <ais523> e.g. if you give an existing file and a nonexistent file, it suggests copying or moving 17:10:09 <tusho> ais523: that's clever 17:10:13 <ais523> and if they have different extensions, it suggests various programs to do the translation 17:10:39 <CO2Games> That would be AI 17:11:43 <tusho> no it wouldn't 17:11:47 <tusho> CO2Games: your definition of "AI" is very strange 17:11:53 <CO2Games> What do you define AI 17:12:09 <tusho> non-organism-based intelligence 17:12:17 <CO2Games> lol 17:12:53 <CO2Games> I define AI as something that is a sample of intelligence, but does not learn from previous mistakes or successes 17:13:12 <tusho> that is a terrible definition :) 17:13:15 <tusho> and not what anyone means by AI 17:13:23 <tusho> heck, even SHRDLU learned, iirc 17:13:24 <CO2Games> Ever watch iRobot? 17:13:33 <tusho> no, I'm not a masochist 17:13:40 <CO2Games> A what? 17:13:44 <tusho> ... 17:13:51 <ais523> I didn't because I heard how much of a mess it made of the book, which I rather like 17:13:58 <tusho> CO2Games: go look it up. 17:14:04 <CO2Games> Oh well 17:14:08 <ais523> Asimov was pretty clear on the reasons why his book didn't do various things, and the film did all of them... 17:14:09 <ihope> A masochist is one who enjoys pain. 17:14:12 <CO2Games> fuck the book 17:14:15 <CO2Games> books suck 17:14:31 <CO2Games> I've only really liked one book. 17:19:34 * tusho kicks CO2Games 17:19:51 <CO2Games> lol 17:20:05 <CO2Games> Well I'm not sure what this program is supposed to do 17:20:31 <CO2Games> drainfuck::++[>++[>--<+]<+] 17:20:43 <CO2Games> I mean... 17:21:23 <CO2Games> It loops until it wraps, and does that over and over until it wraps as well 17:21:31 <CO2Games> No wonder it's so slow 17:21:56 <pikhq> It takes a few milliseconds in EgoBF. 17:23:03 <CO2Games> Yeah but I'm using shorts not chars 17:23:21 <CO2Games> Also my parser is interpreting, not compiling. 17:44:11 -!- M0ny has joined. 17:57:49 <ihope> What's the book you've really liked? 18:02:32 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:06:45 <AnMaster> ihope, asking anyone? 18:07:27 <ihope> CO2Games, what's the book you've really liked? 18:07:39 <AnMaster> well if I had K&R would probably answer that, since obviously that would be the right geek answer :D 18:07:48 <AnMaster> sadly I don't have a copy of K&R 18:08:17 <ihope> K&R isn't some Lisp book, is it? 18:09:21 <Deewiant> meh, ran into a bug in DMD which pretty much halts my CCBI work until it's fixed 18:09:39 <ais523> Deewiant: what is it? 18:09:43 <ais523> and does it affect gdc? 18:09:50 <Deewiant> probably, since it's a frontend bug 18:09:55 <Deewiant> http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=2339 18:11:16 <tusho> "K&R isn't some Lisp book, is it?" 18:11:24 <tusho> K&R is The C Programming Language 18:11:31 <tusho> written by dennis richie and kercan'tspellhisname 18:11:40 <Deewiant> kernighan 18:11:42 <tusho> came out before even the spec was finalized, iirc 18:11:53 <Deewiant> and ritchie, not richie 18:11:57 <tusho> whatevs. 18:14:11 <Deewiant> ██■██ 18:16:10 <AnMaster> <ihope> K&R isn't some Lisp book, is it? 18:16:11 <AnMaster> no 18:16:17 <AnMaster> *the* C one 18:16:46 <ais523> AnMaster: I guess the -fstd=c89 is autoconf getting confused 18:16:53 <AnMaster> ais523, ah hi 18:17:12 <AnMaster> ais523, also clang almost works, and the bug that happens I think is in ccc itself 18:17:20 <Deewiant> ccc? 18:17:21 <AnMaster> it got problems passing the right order to llvm-ld 18:17:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wrapper for clang to accept GCC command line arguments 18:17:43 <Deewiant> ah 18:17:43 <AnMaster> and to handle standard POSIX ones 18:17:44 <ais523> oh, the old-style protos are just a couple I didn't catch, everything was like that originally but the ones which took no arguments looked correct enough that I didn't notice them, nor did the other person who ANSIfied the source before I got to it 18:17:46 <AnMaster> so you can do ccc -c 18:17:51 <AnMaster> normal clang doesn't support -c 18:18:17 <AnMaster> ais523, gcc with the right -W flags catches it 18:19:08 <ais523> AnMaster: iffi.diff has a bit of a ring to it, anyway 18:19:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you need that static assert btw? 18:19:20 <AnMaster> ais523, hm? 18:19:46 <ais523> AnMaster: I just like the way your filename sounds 18:19:51 <AnMaster> ok 18:19:59 <AnMaster> ais523, diffi sure I could see it 18:20:01 <AnMaster> .diff no 18:20:04 <AnMaster> oh well 18:20:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: ? 18:20:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=2339 18:20:26 <Deewiant> what I need is for it to work properly 18:20:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why do you need static asserts? sure they are nice for preventing bugs 18:20:39 <Deewiant> I'm not using it in an assert 18:20:40 <AnMaster> but apart from that? 18:20:44 <AnMaster> oh ok 18:20:46 <Deewiant> it's just there to make a simple testcase 18:21:04 <Deewiant> the basic problem is that mixin("FooMixin.x") can't be passed to a template as an alias parameter 18:21:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, go do some work on llvmdc or whatever the D compiler targeted at llvm is called 18:21:31 <AnMaster> does it use a custom frontend or DMD? 18:21:32 <Deewiant> doesn't help 18:21:36 <Deewiant> they all use the same crap-ass frontend 18:21:55 <AnMaster> so write a new frontend targeted at LLVM 18:21:59 <AnMaster> all issues solved 18:22:00 <Deewiant> I did 18:22:00 <AnMaster> ;) 18:22:07 <Deewiant> only finished the lexer, then got bored 18:22:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you did? 18:22:11 <AnMaster> oh? 18:22:15 <AnMaster> hm 18:22:18 <Deewiant> then donated the code to dang just a few days ago 18:22:26 <Deewiant> which is essentially D clang, just like mine was 18:22:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that "was not the answer I had expected" 18:22:43 <Deewiant> I know :-P 18:22:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what happened to dang? 18:22:52 <Deewiant> it exists 18:22:59 <Deewiant> also dil exists 18:23:05 <AnMaster> dil? .NET? 18:23:07 <AnMaster> ew 18:23:07 <Deewiant> but DMD is the only one near production-quality 18:23:09 <Deewiant> no 18:23:35 <Deewiant> http://code.google.com/p/dil/ 18:24:04 <Deewiant> currently it's mostly a documentation generator from what I understand 18:24:20 <AnMaster> ah well 18:24:33 <Deewiant> the smartest thing for me to do would be to fix the DMD frontend 18:24:42 <Deewiant> but meh, it's C++, and not exactly obvious 18:24:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yep, and then use gdb 18:24:47 <AnMaster> gdc* 18:24:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, huh C++? not D? 18:24:54 <AnMaster> weird 18:25:01 <Deewiant> the DMC compiler backend was C++ 18:25:10 <Deewiant> hence, llvmdc is also C++ 18:25:25 <Deewiant> which annoyed me, which is why I started writing that frontend 18:25:32 <AnMaster> ah I see 18:25:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: using gdc doesn't matter here 18:25:39 <Deewiant> it's all the same frontend 18:25:42 <AnMaster> yep 18:26:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so well maybe time to updated the mycology results page with the current mycology (excluding myco edge since CCBI can't pass it) 18:26:22 <Deewiant> the other option would be to get dil to a usable state but that's too much work :-P 18:26:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well, mycoedge doesn't exist yet :-P 18:26:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you think so I will have a new cfunge release out by tomorrow morning which support SOCK and SCKE 18:26:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, dil or dang you mean? 18:27:06 <Deewiant> dil, it's much more complete than dang 18:27:10 <AnMaster> ah ok 18:27:19 <Deewiant> of course I'd probably prefer working on dang 18:27:31 <Deewiant> but that would be another order of magnitude more work :-P 18:27:39 <Deewiant> and in any case, none of this is practical 18:28:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well anyway do you plan to update the mycology result page soon, considering rc/funge got better too? 18:28:12 <Deewiant> maybe 18:28:23 <AnMaster> if yes cfunge with SOCK SCKE will be released this evening or before noon tomorrow 18:39:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, 0.3.1 release in progress... 18:41:53 <Deewiant> first I'll update old results, so Language::Befunge followed by RC/Funge (and removing jvh and other versions, just the latest) 18:42:01 <Deewiant> so now I'm installing a new version of Perl :-P 18:43:41 <AnMaster> very nice 18:44:03 <Deewiant> oh now this is sad 18:44:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh? 18:44:11 <Deewiant> At present, Strawberry Perl must be installed in C:\strawberry 18:44:24 <Deewiant> I wonder how they managed to hardcode that 18:44:27 <AnMaster> ok why that perl? 18:44:51 <Deewiant> evidently it's a smart option 18:45:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a what? 18:45:11 <ais523> Deewiant: what about non-Windows systems, does it still have to be installed in C:\strawberry 18:45:20 <Deewiant> ais523: it's for Windows only 18:45:39 <Deewiant> but screw that, I refuse to install it in such a place 18:45:53 <Deewiant> so activestate it is 18:45:59 <ais523> Deewiant: you can hardlink directories on Windows, you could use that to install it... 18:46:11 <Deewiant> across partitions? 18:46:17 <ais523> probably not 18:46:19 <ais523> not sure though 18:46:24 <Deewiant> I think not 18:46:28 <ais523> Windows' filesystem is weird 18:46:43 <ais523> on Linux you can hardlink files but not directories, Windows is the other way round... 18:46:47 <AnMaster> https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=221310&package_id=267309&release_id=624578 18:46:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there you are ^ 18:47:10 <AnMaster> note, that probably doesn't work on windows, since I don't have cygwin available 18:47:16 <AnMaster> cygwin does not run under wine 18:47:18 <Deewiant> I can test it on cygwin 18:47:21 <AnMaster> and I got no other windows 18:47:40 <ais523> AnMaster: I have cygwin available although not here, do you want me to test it when I get home? 18:47:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I can't do much if it doesn't compile under that, if it is something either part of C99 or POSIX.1-2001 that it can't handle 18:49:57 <ais523> I have to go now, forgot it was Saturday... 18:49:59 -!- ais523 has quit ("9"). 18:51:18 <CO2Games> ihope: The curious incident of the dog in the night-time 18:51:33 <CO2Games> I'm able to relate to the main character in it, unlike other books. 19:20:30 * pikhq needs to read that book some time. 19:23:54 -!- oklofok has joined. 19:30:36 <fizzie> Yes, and you can "mount --bind" directories around on Linux, across anything obviously. 19:32:05 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:32:05 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:36:43 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:36:47 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:38:01 <M0ny> optbot... 19:38:02 <optbot> M0ny: going to investigate 19:38:05 <M0ny> yeah 19:38:13 <M0ny> i love investigations 19:41:09 <Deewiant> the new k testing dropped Language::Befunge and pyfunge out earlier than before :-/ 19:44:07 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:05:55 <Deewiant> and oh snap, !Befunge loops infinitely on k at "2k ;;;5" 20:17:36 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:17:47 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:18:15 <fizzie> What should that sort of thing do? Skip the first ;, then do the ;; normally and push a 5? 20:18:43 <Deewiant> ;;; is a no-op assuming no other semicolons on that line 20:19:01 <Deewiant> first ; goes to second, third to first, second to third, and then we're through 20:19:27 <fizzie> And k, will it pick the 5 as the instruction to execute? 20:19:31 <Deewiant> yes 20:20:27 <fizzie> I'm not really a Funge-98 person, so fungot doesn't use either 'k' or ';', I think. There's two 'j's, though. 20:20:28 <fungot> fizzie: when a schemer says " this" 20:20:41 <fizzie> fungot: Then what? 20:20:42 <fungot> fizzie: depending on the viewer. some may like to think befunge, but still 20:22:19 <fizzie> And a single ], all other turns are plain old <>v^, even though I could've saved characters with []. And no w. It's very crappy code. :/ 20:23:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you around? 20:36:51 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:37:07 <Deewiant> well, with a lot of hacking (removing the mmap check as well as a bunch of fingerprints) I managed to get cfunge to compile under cygwin 20:37:15 <Deewiant> crashes in o: 20:37:15 <Deewiant> Trying to write to it with o... 20:37:15 <Deewiant> Segmentation fault (core dumped) 20:41:40 <Deewiant> guess that testing cfunge is for tomorrow then 20:54:16 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:54:18 -!- fungot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:02:18 <CO2Games> Ok I know what the problem in my interpreter is 21:02:24 <CO2Games> Well 21:02:28 <CO2Games> Sort of 21:03:01 <oklopol> brainfuck interpreter? 21:03:13 <CO2Games> drainfuck 21:03:24 <CO2Games> Although it's supposed to support most brainfuck 21:03:41 <CO2Games> The wrapping not so much because they are 16-bit cells not 8-bit 21:03:48 <oklopol> you added a few loop constructs? 21:03:53 <CO2Games> Yeah 21:04:14 <CO2Games> The [ and ] aren't working when nested 21:04:24 * oerjan wonders if this is another case of not skipping loops properly 21:04:26 * KingOfKarlsruhe eat streusel cake like this http://tinyurl.com/5b469r 21:04:27 <CO2Games> Actually they might be entirely broken 21:04:29 <oklopol> i can fix your code you wanna 21:04:34 <oklopol> *if you 21:04:45 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:04:52 <CO2Games> The problem is it won't exit the loop once it is 0 21:05:00 <oklopol> if it's in python, otherwise i can't promise anything :P 21:05:05 <CO2Games> c++ 21:05:32 <oerjan> CO2Games: does it avoid entering loops if they're 0 at the start? 21:05:32 <oklopol> KingOfKarlsruhe: you're a king, how hard can it be to get some cake? 21:05:37 <oklopol> also that looks delicious 21:05:53 -!- GreyKnight has joined. 21:06:17 <CO2Games> Ye...errrr 21:06:20 <CO2Games> hmm 21:06:24 <CO2Games> I don't know 21:06:33 <KingOfKarlsruhe> oklopol: i have a lot of grandmas 21:06:37 <CO2Games> eww 21:07:00 <oklopol> KingOfKarlsruhe: i read that as "wants to eat" 21:07:27 <KingOfKarlsruhe> oklopol; no i eat it now ^^ 21:07:37 <oerjan> kings always have to let them eat cake. and they may _still_ lose their head for it 21:07:38 <CO2Games> Lemee check if it does or not 21:07:55 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat, GreyKnight and KingOfKarlsruhe, we have a lot of majestetic names here 21:08:08 -!- oklopol has changed nick to OkloThePol. 21:08:40 <GreyKnight> Oklob Police? :-) 21:08:45 <CO2Games> oerjan: Yeah it skips the loop 21:08:58 <OkloThePol> Oklob? 21:09:01 <oerjan> ok so it's not that common newbie mistake :) 21:09:05 <CO2Games> Well, [] does, but {} doesn't as intended 21:09:19 <OkloThePol> CO2Games: give us some code or start debugging, whining doesn't help :P 21:09:24 <CO2Games> [] is a while, and {} is a dowhile 21:09:29 <CO2Games> and () is an if :D 21:09:43 <CO2Games> ok 21:09:44 <GreyKnight> OkloThePol: "oklob plants" are a dastardly and widely-feared monster from the game Crawl (see ##crawl) 21:09:50 * oerjan is with Pol the Great 21:09:56 <OkloThePol> KingOfKarlsruhe: hey! you can only have 2 grandmas, i just realized :--) 21:10:28 <oerjan> hm was it gilgamesh who had two mothers? 21:10:29 <CO2Games> biological* 21:10:42 <oerjan> or was it three 21:10:50 <ihope> No, that was Florence Ambrose. 21:10:56 <ihope> And maybe Gilgamesh, too. 21:10:58 <CO2Games> I've always wondered if eggs could fuse resulting in two or more fathers 21:11:31 <GreyKnight> CO2Games: you could put some code in a pastebin if you want help, then we could see the problem more easily 21:11:33 <ihope> I doubt it, given that horses and donkeys can't exactly mix, and they have almost the same number of chromosomes. 21:11:38 <CO2Games> Alright 21:11:39 <CO2Games> 1 sec 21:11:40 <oerjan> what? i don't remember florence having - oh, that. but only one was biological right? 21:11:42 <ihope> Or something like that, anyway. 21:11:51 <ihope> Right. 21:11:53 <GreyKnight> (you are the guy that is doing YA bf-alike, right?) 21:12:16 <KingOfKarlsruhe> OkloThePol: thats enough 21:12:20 <oerjan> er is wikipedia down? 21:12:28 <ihope> Why did EU have both a mother and a father, anyway? You don't need two people to make a clone. 21:12:31 <OkloThePol> KingOfKarlsruhe: okay i'll stop 21:12:41 <KingOfKarlsruhe> oerjan: yes wikipedia is down 21:12:59 <ihope> Wikipedia doesn't seem to be down here. 21:13:02 <GreyKnight> WP works for me 21:13:09 <GreyKnight> (en-wp, that is) 21:13:48 -!- OkloThePol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:13:52 -!- OkloThePol has joined. 21:14:32 <CO2Games> http://pastebin.com/da33c84b 21:14:58 <ihope> no.wikipedia.org works, ja.wikipedia.org works, fi.wikipedia.org works, zh.wikipedia.org works. 21:15:21 <GreyKnight> so only http://oerjan.wikipedia.org is the problem :-) 21:15:29 <ihope> Now I need to look at the Hungarian, German, Spanish, Klingon, Lojban, and French Wikipedias. 21:15:31 <CO2Games> moveleft and moveright move the pointer for the data tape 21:15:36 <CO2Games> or code tape 21:15:40 <CO2Games> whichever is used 21:15:44 <ihope> Oh, and Hindi. 21:15:47 <CO2Games> I know for a fact that they work 21:16:05 <GreyKnight> ihope: wasn't the tlhingan Hol one discontinued? 21:16:08 <oerjan> i still cannot reach en.wikipedia 21:16:10 <GreyKnight> hi btw :-) 21:16:33 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ihope: de.wikipedia is not available 21:17:14 <CO2Games> +[>+[>-<+]<+] - Works but not on my interpreter 21:17:15 <GreyKnight> KingOfKarlsruhe: I can get at de-wp as well, there must be disruption on the path from you to them somewhere 21:17:20 <oerjan> no. was fine 21:18:02 <CO2Games> So any ideas? 21:19:06 <CO2Games> It seems to be looping back to the start of its loop regardless of the result. 21:19:14 <GreyKnight> Topic for #wikipedia is "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Status: Down in Europe | Maintain civility and respect at all times | No public logs allowed | No speaking bots allowed. | For an op, join #wikimedia-ops" 21:19:15 <CO2Games> but only the outside loop not the inside one 21:19:25 <GreyKnight> "Status: Down in Europe" being the important bit :-) 21:19:53 <CO2Games> optbot, help 21:19:53 <optbot> CO2Games: Ouch. 21:19:57 <CO2Games> optbot, please 21:19:58 <optbot> CO2Games: I really need to learn LISP and Perl, and practice Scheme and C. 21:20:05 <CO2Games> optbot! 21:20:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I think you broke EgoBot.. 21:20:13 <GreyKnight> anyway :-) 21:20:23 <OkloThePol> i can get to wp 21:20:39 <CO2Games> Guys? 21:20:43 <GreyKnight> OkloThePol: yeah, I can from Ireland too. It is probably the mainland or else patchy 21:20:53 <GreyKnight> CO2Games: we could probably help more with pasted code and/or copious debugging output :-) 21:21:08 <GreyKnight> GreyKnight's First Rule of Debugging: When in doubt, print it out 21:21:10 <CO2Games> debugging output? There isn't an error 21:21:14 <CO2Games> Oh 21:21:16 <CO2Games> I did 21:21:19 <CO2Games> It takes too long 21:22:01 <OkloThePol> guys my code doesn't work can you help me 21:22:09 <CO2Games> Ok what's the code 21:22:21 <oerjan> OkloThePol: there's a missing semicolon on line 43 21:22:27 <GreyKnight> CO2Games: I mean that, while the executable is running, it should append information to a file on what its current status is 21:22:49 <GreyKnight> that way you could trace through said output to see where it is deviating from expectations 21:23:11 <CO2Games> Oh so you want me to output each operation to a file and upload the file? 21:24:01 <CO2Games> Code symbol - Cell being pointed to before the operation - its value before the operation 21:24:17 <CO2Games> I already have it setup for stdout so I can get that out to a file instead 21:24:36 <fizzie> Wasn't oklopol a Python guy? Missing semicolon in Python code sounds fishy. 21:24:52 <GreyKnight> basically, write out everything you can think of, run a short test of what doesn't work, and then go through the output performing the code operations by hand to see which ones are wrong :-) 21:26:24 <ihope> Doesn't Python have traditional braces-and-semicolon type syntax? 21:26:47 <OkloThePol> NO 21:27:20 <OkloThePol> haven't you seen 21:27:20 <OkloThePol> >>> from __future__ import braces 21:27:21 <OkloThePol> SyntaxError: not a chance (<pyshell#2>, line 1) 21:28:09 <fizzie> Python is (in)famous for its indentation-sensitive syntax. 21:29:42 <GreyKnight> I was under the impression that it's not so much that the syntax is *sensitive* to indentation as that the indentation *is* the syntax :-) 21:30:12 <fizzie> Although you can use ;s to put multiple statements on a single line, so I guess there could be a missing ;. 21:30:44 <oerjan> fizzie: are you doubting my oracular powers? 21:30:53 <ihope> I like doubting people. 21:31:16 <oerjan> ihope: hey, you're back to your old self! 21:31:18 <ihope> I'm doubting... everyone except oerjan right now. 21:31:28 <ihope> Did I change temporarily? 21:31:32 <fizzie> Doubt, doubt, doubt the boat. 21:31:52 <GreyKnight> I doubt that ihope likes doubting people 21:32:06 <oerjan> ihope: you had that sorta weredog look 21:32:51 <ihope> Ah. 21:33:06 <ihope> So I didn't change from always doubting myself to thinking I'm always right, or vice versa. 21:33:21 <oerjan> you may have, i didn't notice 21:34:21 <oerjan> although i doubt that. and i'm always right. 21:37:21 <CO2Games> guys 21:37:45 <CO2Games> the debug output is 28.3 MB 21:37:56 <GreyKnight> for what kind of input?! 21:38:02 <CO2Games> huh? 21:38:04 <CO2Games> +[>+[>-<+]<+] 21:38:19 <oerjan> what is your cell size? 21:38:25 <CO2Games> what? 21:38:29 <CO2Games> oh 21:38:32 <CO2Games> unsigned short 21:39:13 <oerjan> how many bits on your system? 21:39:18 <CO2Games> bits of what 21:39:25 <CO2Games> you mean per short? 21:39:28 <CO2Games> 16-bit cells 21:39:32 <oerjan> OF COURSE 21:39:45 <CO2Games> Sorry I thought you meant ram heh 21:39:51 <oerjan> oh 21:40:30 <CO2Games> +[>+[>-<+]<+] takes a fraction of a second on brainfucking machine 21:40:30 <oerjan> good grief someone is doing fireworks outside 21:41:25 <GreyKnight> CO2Games: put the first bunch of lines of the debug output on a pastebin and let's see if it's doing something wrong early on 21:41:32 <CO2Games> alright 21:42:14 -!- OkloThePol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:42:23 -!- OkloThePol has joined. 21:43:36 <CO2Games> http://pastebin.com/d7efc8647 21:43:39 <oerjan> mind you that should take 2^32 steps of the inner loop, right? 21:43:59 <CO2Games> errr ok 21:44:01 <CO2Games> 1 sec 21:44:58 <CO2Games> 32^2 or 2^32 21:45:06 <oerjan> 2^32 21:45:10 <CO2Games> damn 21:45:18 <CO2Games> That's a lot of lines 21:45:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | just use ssh instead. 21:45:46 <oerjan> take the first 2^16 steps 21:45:58 <oerjan> until the inner cell should wrap around 21:46:17 <oerjan> that's the first place you'd expect something could be wrong 21:46:51 <GreyKnight> better idea might be to take the section around that, cutting off both before *and* after? 21:47:00 <CO2Games> notepad crashed 21:47:05 <CO2Games> wait nevermind 21:47:05 <oerjan> well that's what i meant. 21:47:27 <GreyKnight> oerjan: ok, ignore my misunderstanding then :-) 21:47:31 <CO2Games> Wait what? 21:48:07 <oerjan> CO2Games: you want to see what happens around the point when cell 2 wraps around to 0 for the first time 21:48:47 <CO2Games> ok 21:49:00 <oerjan> er or cell 1 21:49:13 <oerjan> i guess that should be about simultaneous 21:49:30 <tusho> OkloThePol: 21:49:34 <tusho> Oklo my pol. 21:49:42 -!- tusho has changed nick to TuTheSho. 21:50:34 <oerjan> CO2Games: should be around line 5*65536 21:50:53 <CO2Games> oh ok 1 sec then 21:51:06 <oerjan> = 327680 21:52:01 <CO2Games> http://pastebin.com/d7ed995ad 21:53:28 <oerjan> i see, so it _does_ end the inner loop 21:53:44 <CO2Games> Yez 21:53:47 <CO2Games> Yes* 21:54:03 <CO2Games> But never the outer one 21:54:23 <CO2Games> I'm thinking it has something to do with my usage of shorts instead of chars 21:54:35 <CO2Games> like the code needs to wrap to work or something 21:54:39 <oerjan> well sure that makes it much slower 21:54:51 <GreyKnight> hm 21:54:53 <oerjan> but shorts should wrap just as well 21:54:58 <CO2Games> Yes 21:55:02 <oerjan> and clearly they do in the inner loop 21:55:04 <CO2Games> But not at the same point 21:55:12 <GreyKnight> is your cell type typedef'd? If so you could temporarily change it to char and see what happens 21:55:24 <CO2Games> typedef'd? 21:55:53 <CO2Games> I haven't used the typedef keyword 21:56:25 <GreyKnight> that is, do you refer to your tape explicitly as "unsigned short tape[];" or use "typedef unsigned short cellvalue; cellvalue tape[];" 21:56:27 <GreyKnight> oh 21:56:36 <CO2Games> err 21:56:43 <CO2Games> tapes are actually classes 21:56:52 <GreyKnight> well, you get what I mean :-P 21:57:06 <oerjan> CO2Games: anyway you need to get beyond line 5*2^32 and a bit more for the big one 21:57:24 <CO2Games> Ok I'll look for it in my log 21:57:32 <oerjan> 21474836480 21:57:38 <CO2Games> k 1 sec 21:57:40 <GreyKnight> phreeow 21:57:59 <CO2Games> Uhh 21:58:07 <CO2Games> Is that a whole terrabyte 21:58:33 <oerjan> something like that 21:58:37 <CO2Games> jesus christ thats fucking huge 21:59:18 <CO2Games> ok well 1 sec 21:59:44 <CO2Games> 2006689 is as far as the log goes 22:00:06 <CO2Games> so 1 sec 22:01:37 <GreyKnight> I think charification might be the order of the day, to be honest :-) 22:01:45 <GreyKnight> and see if that shows it up any better 22:02:02 <GreyKnight> (with a typedef you could switch between them easily!) 22:02:41 <CO2Games> Well I can make it unsigned chars pretty easy so 1 sec 22:03:00 <oerjan> that should be fast enough 22:04:55 <CO2Games> ... 22:05:01 <CO2Games> ................................ 22:05:03 <CO2Games> It worked 22:05:06 <CO2Games> wtf 22:05:10 <CO2Games> WTF 22:05:16 <oerjan> yay 22:05:22 <CO2Games> wtf did I do D: 22:05:49 <CO2Games> it works now that I changed them to unsigned chars 22:05:51 <oerjan> i guess 5*2^32 + 65536 steps is just a bit slow... 22:06:04 <oerjan> (that's my latest calculation) 22:06:09 <CO2Games> no no no it couldn't be 22:06:40 <CO2Games> I used if's to check if I was at zero and it was like I was always not. 22:07:41 <CO2Games> So it was the goddamned shit... 22:07:46 <CO2Games> well 1 sec in that case 22:09:13 * oerjan envisions some if (cell=0) ;D 22:12:19 <CO2Games> huh 22:12:38 <oerjan> (that was a joke. i hope.) 22:13:11 <CO2Games> dude you need to use == 22:13:27 <oerjan> that _was_ the joke :D 22:13:28 <CO2Games> And I meant my if commands in drainfuck 22:13:33 <CO2Games> oh rofl 22:14:02 <CO2Games> (^0+++++++.V) 22:14:22 <CO2Games> Prints a beep without altering the current cell's contents 22:14:37 <CO2Games> Although you could also 22:14:48 <CO2Games> X0+++++++.X 22:15:00 <CO2Games> the () is an if 22:15:19 <CO2Games> it has the effect of a [. but the ) doesn't do anything but sit there 22:15:40 <CO2Games> And the opposite {} 22:15:43 <CO2Games> { does nothing 22:15:48 <CO2Games> } has the effect of ] 22:16:05 <CO2Games> So now I have while, if, do-while 22:16:20 <CO2Games> I simplified the loop 22:16:31 <CO2Games> +[>+[+]<+] 22:16:59 <CO2Games> Brainfuck did it in .02 seconds 22:17:09 <CO2Games> drainfuck is still working on it 22:17:23 <OkloThePol> many brainfuck interps parse [+] as (set cell to zero) 22:17:33 <CO2Games> Yeah mine too 22:17:46 <CO2Games> Didn't know about the wrapping until after I made the 0 though 22:17:48 <OkloThePol> or, preferably, optimize it 22:17:57 <OkloThePol> well 22:18:07 <CO2Games> although 0 is much faster 22:18:19 <CO2Games> especially in an interpreter 22:18:29 <GreyKnight> more wrapping-dependent code? I wonder how BF ever managed to get so vilely popular with all this carryon. 22:19:02 <CO2Games> Mine doesn't directly parse [+] or [-], it just goes [ then + then ] then + then ] etc. 22:19:25 <OkloThePol> CO2Games: i'm not following you 22:19:28 <CO2Games> Still gotta add X and L for my parser 22:19:41 <OkloThePol> does yours optimize [+] into a single action setting the current cell to 0? 22:19:44 <CO2Games> No 22:19:45 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:19:49 <CO2Games> But I have the 0 command for that 22:19:57 <OkloThePol> err okay. 22:20:00 <CO2Games> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Drainfuck#Examples 22:20:02 <CO2Games> err 22:20:05 <CO2Games> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Drainfuck 22:20:44 <CO2Games> My parser sees [+] as three commands, not one 22:20:49 <CO2Games> same with [-] 22:21:12 <OkloThePol> i know 22:22:04 -!- OkloThePol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:22:12 -!- OkloThePol has joined. 22:23:32 <OkloThePol> hmm, muriel + brainfuck, all loops balanced, ^ runs tape as a bf program with a new empty tape 22:24:01 <CO2Games> Hot damn that's interesting 22:24:02 <OkloThePol> also i guess you could have 1 mean +, 2 mean - etc, so it's easier to create the code 22:24:42 <CO2Games> I use ^ to store the current cell's data into the cache 22:25:27 <OkloThePol> cache is like a one-byte buffer for temporary storing? 22:25:32 <CO2Games> Yeah 22:25:32 <OkloThePol> well one-word 22:25:36 <CO2Games> 2 bytes 22:25:39 <OkloThePol> yarrrr 22:25:54 <CO2Games> And it isn't affected by swapping tapes 22:26:08 <CO2Games> ^XV 22:26:15 <CO2Games> I just copied a byte to the other tape 22:26:17 <CO2Games> err 22:26:19 <CO2Games> a cell 22:26:25 <OkloThePol> yah 22:26:51 <CO2Games> Each tape has an independant reel, so if you start the program and >X you are still at 0 22:27:12 <CO2Games> But the other tape is at 1 22:27:28 <CO2Games> I intend to add a function to swap the data tape out 22:28:10 <CO2Games> YAY 22:28:21 <CO2Games> The loop I fed my program finished 22:28:25 <OkloThePol> CO2Games: what country are you in? 22:28:32 <CO2Games> United States 22:28:47 <CO2Games> why? 22:28:51 <OkloThePol> for some reason "reel" immediately gave it away for me that you were native 22:28:53 <OkloThePol> dunno. 22:28:55 <CO2Games> lol 22:29:13 <CO2Games> I have a 5.25" working floppy drive in my dos 6.22 computer 22:29:19 <CO2Games> right now that is 22:29:50 <CO2Games> If I could I would also have an 8" drive 22:29:58 <CO2Games> but noo they don't sell those 22:30:12 <CO2Games> I had to get my 5.25" off ebay 22:30:13 <OkloThePol> the ones commodore 64 used? 22:30:14 <CO2Games> drive that is 22:30:23 <CO2Games> They use 5.25" 22:30:27 <OkloThePol> oh 22:31:08 <CO2Games> Now Playing: Mutato Muzika - N. Cortex 22:32:10 <CO2Games> I love the crash bandicoot 2 background music 22:35:50 -!- oklofok has joined. 22:35:51 -!- OkloThePol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:38:56 <TuTheSho> .0 22:40:21 <oklofok> o 22:40:35 <GreyKnight> .o0o. 22:44:04 <oerjan> _.00._ 22:54:01 <CO2Games> Alright I've got a working drainfuck-specific program now 22:54:08 <CO2Games> drainfuck::{++++++++++>,----------}@>[.>]E 23:07:25 <TuTheSho> cool 23:23:17 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving."). 23:23:30 -!- Judofyr has quit. 23:32:12 -!- TuTheSho has changed nick to tuhso. 23:32:14 -!- tuhso has changed nick to tusho. 23:36:01 <GreyKnight> finally, I was half-tempted to /nick GreyTheKnight for a while there 23:36:55 <GreyKnight> Unlambda is neat, maybe I should roll together a program to interpret or compile it 23:37:04 <GreyKnight> hmm effort 23:37:31 <oklofok> unlambda rocks ass 23:40:06 <tusho> compiling unlambda is quite difficult 23:40:07 <tusho> due to d 23:40:21 -!- oerjan has quit ("```.Z.Z.Zi"). 23:47:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 23:52:09 -!- tusho has quit. 23:52:48 -!- calamari has joined. 2008-09-07: 00:03:31 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:03:38 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 00:23:44 -!- OkloThePol has joined. 00:23:44 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:51:49 <CO2Games> Anyone want to try out my drainfuck parser? 00:54:18 <CO2Games> If my langauge has all of the brainfuck commands working the same way, is my language turing-complete as well? 00:57:01 <CO2Games> Hey I thought brainfuck was intended to have the smallest compiler ever. 00:57:41 <CO2Games> 200 kb my ass 00:58:01 <CO2Games> My interpreter is only 88 kb 00:58:59 <GreyKnight> yeah but theirs is tested :o) 00:59:05 <CO2Games> True 00:59:06 <GreyKnight> (a joke, but you never know) 00:59:09 <CO2Games> But mine can be. 00:59:18 <CO2Games> A joke? Theirs aren't tested? 00:59:54 <GreyKnight> I'm afraid I try to stay away from bf-alikes, so would be hard pressed to see any problems with it, but hopefully someone else will give you a hand 01:00:09 <CO2Games> :D 01:00:12 <CO2Games> D:* 01:01:40 <CO2Games> Wow 01:02:02 <CO2Games> Why is my interpreter smaller than their compilers? 01:02:35 <GreyKnight> well, compilation and interpretation are different beasts for a start, perhaps that has an effect. 01:02:43 <OkloThePol> err 01:02:54 <OkloThePol> i think the brainfuck compiler was 200b 01:02:58 <OkloThePol> umm, actually 01:03:03 <CO2Games> Oh...bytes... 01:03:04 <OkloThePol> what compiler are you talking about? 01:03:05 <CO2Games> ...eheh.... 01:03:08 <OkloThePol> the original? 01:03:17 <CO2Games> The smallest working 01:03:33 <OkloThePol> well the original was near 200b 01:03:34 <CO2Games> Sorry I was thinking kilobytes ahah 01:03:57 <OkloThePol> there's a 3d game in 98kb 01:04:07 <OkloThePol> .kkrieger or something 01:37:32 -!- oklofok has joined. 01:37:33 -!- OkloThePol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:40:07 -!- M0ny has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire..."). 01:42:18 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 02:24:45 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 02:25:19 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:40:10 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:42:27 -!- GreyKnight has quit ("fell into a bucket of sleep"). 03:45:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you could easily have like 10 buttons that way. 04:13:35 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:31:59 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 04:32:10 <psygnisfive> so 04:32:15 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/transfers/prettyboy.jpg 04:32:16 <psygnisfive> hot 04:32:18 <psygnisfive> want him 04:32:21 <psygnisfive> love his cock 04:32:23 <psygnisfive> D: 04:34:38 <GregorR> Note to self: Read commentary BEFORE clicking random links. 06:10:12 <psygnisfive> :) 06:10:18 <psygnisfive> TOO MUCH FUN? 06:18:54 <RodgerTheGreat> hey guys- want to try out a new stack-based language I've cooked up? 06:18:55 <RodgerTheGreat> http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/GraphScript/ 06:19:23 <RodgerTheGreat> the interpreter is still a little brittle, but it can deal with most syntax errors somewhat gracefully 06:20:24 <RodgerTheGreat> running either of the frontends I provide from the console will provide you with more helpful debugging information in the case of an error than just running the applet in a browser. 06:27:03 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR, pikhq? 06:31:37 <psygnisfive> i dislike your symbol choices. :( 06:36:38 <RodgerTheGreat> how so? Not a fan of square brackets? 06:47:22 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:47:33 <psygnisfive> not a fan of not using + - etc 06:49:03 <psygnisfive> >.< 06:50:16 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 07:28:42 <RodgerTheGreat> well, 'night, folks 07:50:05 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I'll check it out in the morning. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:12:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:18:21 <oklofok> i'll check it out in the now. 08:20:18 <oerjan> these days, efficiency requires you to check it out in the past 08:20:39 <oerjan> always keep a time machine handy 08:20:47 <oklofok> well, in the past, i was checking out your mum. 08:21:21 <oerjan> how far in the past? 08:24:08 -!- tusho has joined. 08:24:41 -!- kar8nga has joined. 08:24:45 <tusho> Whew. 08:24:47 <tusho> I am here early. 08:25:11 <oklofok> yay i drew a line 08:25:14 <oerjan> surprisingly, some people are awake 08:26:45 <oklofok> i was woken up by a friends asking me to go to some whacky martial arts thing 08:28:40 <tusho> oerjan: yea, but i doubt there's anyone british in here 08:28:41 <tusho> :) 08:31:19 * oerjan watches tusho doubt himself 08:31:38 <tusho> i'm too tired to doubt. :3 08:31:53 <tusho> if anyone is 1. awake 2. on IRC 3. british say "aaaaaaaaaafjkahsiuebfbuaishdiuqh312h3893y*&*&£Y" 08:32:19 <oerjan> i really thought you were british 08:34:13 <tusho> oerjan: that was a command to others 08:34:14 <tusho> not to myself 08:35:08 <oerjan> but still, you seem not to include yourself in "anyone" 08:35:09 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:35:18 -!- puzzlet has joined. 08:35:43 <oerjan> conclusion: tusho is a british robot 08:40:39 <oklofok> or, he is two 08:41:51 <oerjan> impeccable logic 08:43:36 <tusho> oerjan: i am fuzzy 08:43:38 <tusho> and i like hugs. 08:44:05 * oerjan hugs tusho 08:44:15 <oerjan> eww, that fuzz is mold! 08:44:17 * tusho 's fuzzy state continues unchanged 08:44:21 <tusho> no it's not :( 08:46:13 <oklofok> i read too slowly 08:46:49 <oerjan> me too. must be a sign of genius. 08:47:56 <oklofok> :D 08:47:57 * oerjan investigates the fuzz more carefully with a microscope 08:48:11 <oerjan> hey, there are little people in there! and skyscrapers! 08:48:16 <oklofok> 8| 08:48:37 <oerjan> and a starbucks! 08:50:51 <oklofok> as a plus side to my slow reading, i do usually remember every little detail about the book 08:51:10 <oklofok> except for names and years of course, for some reason i cannot remember those 08:51:24 <oklofok> easier for me to convert the name to meaningless numbers, then remember them 08:51:35 <oklofok> or, well, think of the word as a random string 08:51:39 <oerjan> that doesn't explain the years 08:51:43 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklopol. 08:52:07 <oklopol> basically, at some point in my life i've decided names and times are not important 08:52:22 <oklopol> and now i just cannot remember them. 08:53:20 -!- OkloThePol has joined. 08:53:21 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:53:52 <OkloThePol> i can't remember any one of my friends' birthday, even though i've put quite a lot of effort into remembering them; i do remember about 20 long passwords though, even the passwords of a few of my friends, i remember all phone numbers, and much more useless trivia though 08:54:10 <OkloThePol> though though 08:54:25 <OkloThePol> i do remember the names of my friends though, that's not as bad :) 08:55:07 -!- OkloThePol has changed nick to oklopol. 08:55:34 <oklopol> fucking mirc remembers my jokes and keeps repeating them 08:56:37 <tusho> i read really fast. 08:56:59 <tusho> i don't really remember many details post-book but I could give you a summary. it's a pleasure for while I read it, at least 08:57:19 <tusho> I also don't type anywhere near the speed at which I can for some reason. 08:57:25 <oerjan> must be a sign of .. erm 08:59:02 <oklopol> i don't read books where it's useful to give summaries 08:59:12 <oklopol> i guess that's one reason why i read slow, i don't read fiction 09:02:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, now I'm around 09:03:01 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> well, with a lot of hacking (removing the mmap check as well as a bunch of fingerprints) I managed to get cfunge to compile under cygwin 09:03:01 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> crashes in o: 09:03:01 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Trying to write to it with o... 09:03:01 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Segmentation fault (core dumped) 09:03:02 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> guess that testing cfunge is for tomorrow then 09:03:05 <AnMaster> got a backtrace? 09:03:39 <AnMaster> it works perfectly under Linux, FreeBSD and Mac OS X 09:03:42 <AnMaster> I know that 09:06:42 <AnMaster> and well those changes you made, they could have caused the issue, potentially 09:08:21 <Deewiant> how do I get a backtrace 09:09:00 <AnMaster> you got gdb? 09:09:05 <Deewiant> yes 09:09:23 <AnMaster> gdb --args path/to/cfunge path/to/mycology.b98 09:09:40 <AnMaster> type "r" (without quotes) to run the program 09:09:50 <AnMaster> wait till it crashes and you get a gdb prompt 09:09:54 <AnMaster> then type: 09:09:56 <AnMaster> bt 09:10:02 <Deewiant> useless stacktrace 09:10:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, useless as in? 09:10:13 <Deewiant> as in, useless 09:10:17 <Deewiant> I can paste it for you 09:10:20 <AnMaster> you mean lot of question marks? 09:10:25 <AnMaster> did you build with debug info? 09:10:40 <Deewiant> I just did "cmake . -G 'Unix Makefiles'" 09:10:44 <AnMaster> DEBUG for build type in cmake 09:11:05 <AnMaster> -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=DEBUG 09:12:12 <AnMaster> try that Deewiant :) 09:12:18 <Deewiant> the other question I had was how to remove fingerprints from the build 09:12:19 <tusho> Deewiant: i wanna contribute a ccbi patch, are there any neat fingerprints i could implement for ccbi2? 09:12:41 <Deewiant> I went hacking in the CMake-generated makefiles to do it 09:12:51 <Deewiant> but surely there's an easy way 09:13:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, remove the directory and rerun tools/gen_fprint_list.sh 09:13:21 <Deewiant> tusho: I don't know about "neat", but sure, there's a bunch of stuff of RC/Funge's that I haven't done 09:13:25 <AnMaster> to rebuild fingerprints.h 09:13:32 <Deewiant> remove what directory 09:13:38 <tusho> Deewiant: yay. any up-to-date ccbi2 source tarballs? 09:13:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, src/fingerprints/FILE or whatever 09:13:52 <AnMaster> and the file src/fingerprints/FILE.spec 09:14:04 <Deewiant> tusho: would be kinda pointless as the fingerprint stuff isn't done in ccbi2 (currently blocked on a compiler bug indefinitely) 09:14:13 <tusho> Deewiant: ouch. what's the bug? 09:14:15 <tusho> any hacky workarounds? 09:14:18 <Deewiant> none 09:14:25 <Deewiant> I already have dozens of bug workarounds in my code 09:14:29 <Deewiant> couldn't think of one for this 09:14:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I didn't have any need to disable some in an easy way. sorry 09:14:35 <tusho> Deewiant: what's the bug? 09:14:48 <Deewiant> http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=2339 09:15:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway got any useful stack trace now? 09:15:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I am removing fingerprints so that I can get this to build 09:15:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah 09:16:01 <tusho> Deewiant: couldn't you like, restructure how your stuff works and sacrifice neatness for workingness 09:16:01 <tusho> :P 09:16:09 <tusho> mixin magic is nice, but when it doesn't work... 09:16:13 <Deewiant> tusho: that was 1.0 09:16:14 <AnMaster> tusho, you mean make it work like ccbi 1? 09:16:22 <tusho> true. :p 09:16:30 <tusho> Deewiant: write it in something else. =P 09:17:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but I don't have too high hopes for this since I know cygwin's gdb can be whacky, and you said you edited funge-space.c to remove mmap... well that is where the actually file writing happens too, though that bit doesn't use mmap() 09:20:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no help anyway 09:20:07 <Deewiant> http://rafb.net/p/fzo95417.html 09:20:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah, cygwin's gdb is whacky, not much I can do except note that using locally changed source is unsupported :/ 09:20:59 <tusho> ues 09:21:00 <tusho> yes 09:21:03 <tusho> you cannot get paid phone support 09:21:11 <tusho> or use any of the Unofficial cfunge Community Support Channels 09:21:23 <tusho> for assistance with The Product. 09:21:28 <tusho> (As specified by the EULA.) 09:21:31 <AnMaster> tusho, very funny, but point is I need a good backtrace to be able to debug it 09:21:44 <AnMaster> and eula is GPL so *shrug* 09:21:51 <tusho> AnMaster: so you need a backtrace to do it but you won't do it anyway as it was locally changed? 09:21:52 <tusho> i see. 09:21:58 <AnMaster> tusho, the backtrace is broken 09:22:01 <tusho> "give me a backtrace then proceed to watch me do nothing with it!" 09:22:10 <AnMaster> and I would help if there was a good backtrace 09:22:15 <AnMaster> even if it was locally changed 09:22:18 <tusho> ...contradicting what you just said 09:22:50 <AnMaster> but, now that it is locally changed and there is no good backtrace... well hard to debug, hard to reproduce 09:23:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you got a diff of your local changes I could take a look at them 09:24:29 <AnMaster> if I could reproduce a bug with that here maybe I could help you make it work 09:24:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: just defining M_PI somewhere where it wasn't, removing the check for _POSIX_mmap_works or whatever, and removing 3DSP,FIXP,PERL,REXP,TERM 09:25:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so you use mmap() still? just removing the sanity check for it? 09:25:07 <Deewiant> yes 09:25:27 <Deewiant> not like I'm going to rewrite your file loading code to get it to work :-P 09:25:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then I'm totally lost. If you had removed mmap() and replaced it with something else then I could see that something could have caused it... but... now, huh? 09:26:03 <Deewiant> I don't know 09:26:12 <AnMaster> as for where was M_PI not defined? 09:26:18 <Deewiant> can't remember, somewhere 09:26:21 <AnMaster> here math.h define it 09:26:22 <AnMaster> so :/ 09:26:32 <Deewiant> not in cygwin evidently 09:26:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, think that is due to windows in fact 09:26:47 <AnMaster> anyway will take a look at that 09:26:52 <Deewiant> yes, it is 09:27:21 <AnMaster> TURT.c I guess 09:28:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but the bug you describe doesn't happen on any OS I have access to, so I'm sad to say that I'm unable to reproduce it :/ 09:28:33 <AnMaster> hard to see what I could do :/ 09:29:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you could run with -S to drop =, o and i 09:29:32 <AnMaster> but... 09:29:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as for PERL, why wouldn't it work under cygwin? 09:29:56 <AnMaster> cygwin does have fork() 09:30:38 <tusho> AnMaster: Is this where I get revenge for you whining about my blog design? 09:30:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: link error to __Exit 09:30:43 <tusho> AnMaster: Portability!!!!!! 09:30:51 <tusho> POOOOOOOOORTABILITY 09:30:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah 09:31:06 <tusho> oh wait, you're portable to anything that supports C99 and POSIX right? 09:31:18 <tusho> my design is portable to anything that supports CSS2 and some elements of CSS3. 09:31:25 <tusho> it works without the CSS3 stuff too. 09:31:26 <AnMaster> tusho, well that is fine 09:31:32 <AnMaster> if you say that in the README :P 09:31:45 <AnMaster> I make sure to not use GCC or glibc extensions 09:31:46 <tusho> AnMaster: but 100% standards compliance is universal! 09:31:47 <AnMaster> and so on 09:31:53 <tusho> is it not?! you are shattering my world here 09:32:05 <AnMaster> tusho, no it isn't, I never claimed to work on Mac OS 7 09:32:24 <tusho> Deewiant: does ccbi run on macos7 09:32:34 <Deewiant> tusho: haven't seen anyone try 09:32:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does cygwin have _exit() then? 09:32:36 <Deewiant> in theory, why not 09:32:39 <AnMaster> if it doesn't have _Exit() 09:32:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't know 09:33:09 <tusho> Deewiant: what, but everyone who asks about something is an expert on it.[1][2] 09:33:09 <tusho> References 09:33:09 <tusho> --------------- 09:33:10 <tusho> [1]: ais523 09:33:10 <tusho> [2]: tusho 09:33:12 <AnMaster> NAME 09:33:12 <AnMaster> _exit, _Exit - terminate the calling process 09:33:15 <AnMaster> CONFORMING TO 09:33:15 <AnMaster> SVr4, POSIX.1-2001, 4.3BSD. The function _Exit() was introduced by C99. 09:33:15 <tusho> okay, I'll stop irritating AnMaster now 09:33:25 <tusho> wait no i won't 09:33:37 <tusho> AnMaster: but you just said that standards-compliance wasn't universal... 09:33:39 <AnMaster> so replacing it with _exit() could work 09:33:48 <tusho> so why are you citing one 09:33:50 <AnMaster> tusho, that is sadly the truth 09:33:57 <AnMaster> tusho, I'm saying that you could use either 09:34:11 <AnMaster> if you want it to work under cygwin 09:34:53 <tusho> okay well i said that before you said that. 09:34:54 <tusho> type faster :p 09:34:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, o uses normal file streams so I'm not sure what is the cause of stuff going wrong there. I'm unable to reproduce that type of error 09:35:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, cygwin use / not \ right? 09:35:59 <Deewiant> tusho: if you really want to implement stuff for ccbi you can do it against the current version and I can update it myself for version 2 later 09:36:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes, of course 09:36:09 <tusho> Deewiant: alright. any juicy fingerprints? 09:36:12 <Deewiant> and Windows NT supports / as well anyway 09:36:23 <tusho> i don't know a good list of them, so 09:36:28 <tusho> and i think rcfunge98.com is down 09:36:34 <Deewiant> it isn't 09:36:34 <tusho> ah 09:36:35 <tusho> 'sback 09:36:36 <Deewiant> not for me, anyway 09:36:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, I got no idea what could be wrong, if I had a bugzilla I would probably close with "WORKSFORME" or "NEEDMOREINFO" at this point :( 09:37:36 <Deewiant> tusho: EXEC, FING, LONG, MACR, SETS, STCK, TRGR, from a quick look 09:37:45 <tusho> EXEC sounds sexalicious. 09:37:47 * tusho checks 09:37:56 <AnMaster> tusho, EXEC is just "variations of k in C maj" 09:38:07 <AnMaster> ;P 09:38:11 <tusho> ah. not very interesting from the looks either 09:38:14 <Deewiant> tusho: you want to clone a mercurial branch to play with? 09:38:22 <tusho> Deewiant: oh, sure 09:38:30 <tusho> i was just going to sync the tarball manually with git but that sounds better :^) 09:38:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you manage to get an usable backtrace, or even better a nice patch, then I shall handle fix it as fast as I can (probably the weekend after) 09:38:58 <Deewiant> tusho: hg clone http://tar.us.to:8000/ should work 09:38:58 <AnMaster> until then: NEEDMOREINFO and WORKSFORME 09:39:00 <AnMaster> :( 09:39:07 <tusho> AnMaster: it works for you on cygwin? 09:39:11 <tusho> the problem is "doesn't work on cygwin" 09:39:14 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't have cygwin 09:39:15 <tusho> WORKSFORME is inappropriate. 09:39:21 <tusho> because you haven't even tested 09:39:33 <AnMaster> tusho, right, NEEDMOREINFO LACKNEEDEDRESOURCESTOTESTONCYGWIN 09:39:37 <Deewiant> I agree, more like NEEDMOREINFO or WONTFIX 09:39:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, WILLFIXWITHMOREINFO 09:39:49 <tusho> AnMaster: couldn't you, ahh, just run qemu.. 09:39:59 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't have any windows cd or license 09:40:04 <tusho> AnMaster: pirate it. 09:40:11 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't do that... 09:40:35 <AnMaster> I don't break the law like that 09:40:36 <tusho> AnMaster: is windows worth the money it costs. 09:40:36 <AnMaster> really 09:40:39 <tusho> :p 09:40:43 <AnMaster> tusho, no, but I don't break the law 09:40:47 <tusho> Deewiant: operation timed out 09:40:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, same as tusho here 09:41:02 <Deewiant> meh 09:41:02 <tusho> AnMaster: ok, i'll call you back post-copyright-reform. :D 09:41:15 <AnMaster> tusho, hm? 09:41:28 <tusho> Deewiant: any other location for the repo? 09:41:29 <tusho> i guess not 09:41:44 <Deewiant> tusho: I can give you the IP address instead or you can wait while I update the DNS record :-) 09:41:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ip is fine 09:41:58 <tusho> Deewiant: that sounds nice 09:42:02 <Deewiant> 88.114.230.95 09:42:16 <Deewiant> alright, somebody worked 09:42:20 <AnMaster> me 09:42:22 <tusho> me 09:42:24 <AnMaster> I did a clone 09:42:24 <Deewiant> and tusho as well 09:42:37 <tusho> oh, STCK looks incredibly trivial 09:42:38 <tusho> i'll do that 09:42:42 <Deewiant> heh 09:42:44 <AnMaster> not that I can build it due to gdc and tango mess 09:43:08 <tusho> Deewiant: can i install rebuild with dsss? 09:43:09 <tusho> :P 09:43:10 <Deewiant> just get DMD, what's so wrong with that :-P 09:43:16 <Deewiant> tusho: rebuild is part of dsss 09:43:20 <tusho> Deewiant: oh 09:43:22 <Deewiant> if you have dsss, you have rebuild 09:43:23 <tusho> i don't have dsss, it seems 09:43:24 <tusho> lulz 09:43:26 <Deewiant> heh 09:43:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway as it stands now: cygwin is unsupported and NEEDMOREINFO | CANTFIXCURRENTLY 09:44:01 <tusho> # dsss-0.75-gdc-mac-10.4.dmg <-- oh yeah baby 09:44:03 <tusho> i hated compiling dsss 09:44:18 <AnMaster> so cygwin issues is not valid for mycology results page 09:44:25 <tusho> http://dsss.codu.org/ wow, gregorr uses the cherokee http server 09:44:25 <AnMaster> since I don't currently support cygwin 09:44:29 <AnMaster> however I accept patches 09:44:32 <tusho> that's...even more obscure than nginx and lighttpd. 09:44:37 <AnMaster> and good backtraces 09:44:37 <tusho> and thttpd. 09:45:07 <AnMaster> tusho, agreed, I used both lighttpd and thttpd (and apache of course) 09:45:15 <AnMaster> I heard about nginx 09:45:20 <AnMaster> but cherokee? huh? 09:45:29 <tusho> cherokee looks like a neat project but meh 09:45:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | OK. 09:45:39 <tusho> it seems neat but ... no reason to switch atm i think 09:45:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: the problem is cf_putc_unlocked 09:45:59 <Deewiant> fputc works fine 09:46:02 <tusho> rutian uses apache 'cause it's easy to spread out domains in different directories (the way we do it is: domain X administered by user Y goes in ~Y/www/X) 09:46:08 <tusho> and it has Passangers and nifty stuff 09:46:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, interesting. I do call the needed locking and unlocking functions before and after 09:46:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you should probably report this bug to the cygwin project I suspect 09:46:53 <tusho> rutian is a pretty nifty little machine. 09:46:54 <AnMaster> for now if you give me some thing to ifdef on I can work around it for cygwin 09:46:56 <tusho> nicely organized and such 09:46:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, :) 09:47:09 <tusho> and always zippy 09:47:33 <tusho> % rebuild -rfccbi.rf 09:47:33 <tusho> ccbi.d(13): module Exception cannot read file 'tango/core/Exception.d' 09:47:39 <tusho> what's the dsss command to tangoify again 09:47:47 <Deewiant> beats me, I don't use dsss 09:47:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, #ifdef what? to detect cygwin? 09:47:57 <tusho> Deewiant: To make things easiest, get Rebuild and run rebuild -rfccbi.rf, passing any other options you wish (e.g. for optimization, -O -inline -release). If not, you’ll need to manually pass each source file to the compiler. 09:48:10 <Deewiant> tusho: you don't have tango 09:48:20 <tusho> Deewiant: i know 09:48:26 <tusho> but there's a dsss command to download&install tango 09:48:29 <Deewiant> so why paste that :-P 09:48:32 <Deewiant> dsss net install tango? 09:48:34 <tusho> ah 09:48:38 <AnMaster> # define cf_putc_unlocked(x, y) putc_unlocked((x), (y)) 09:48:38 <AnMaster> or 09:48:41 <AnMaster> # define cf_putc_unlocked(x, y) putc((x), (y)) 09:48:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ^ 09:48:53 <AnMaster> depending on if the system claims to support unlocked IO 09:49:13 <AnMaster> so does normal putc, not fputc work? 09:49:15 <tusho> Deewiant: are those gdc problems still relevant 09:49:22 <AnMaster> fputc() writes the character c, cast to an unsigned char, to stream. 09:49:22 <Deewiant> tusho: probably yes 09:49:23 <AnMaster> putc() is equivalent to fputc() except that it may be implemented as a macro which evaluates stream more than once. 09:49:26 <Deewiant> GDC hasn't been updated in ages 09:49:27 <tusho> Deewiant: i can't use dmd on os x :\ 09:49:46 <Deewiant> tusho: well, like said, it's fine as long as you don't use 'o' :-P 09:49:49 <tusho> lib/common/tango/core/Exception.d:71: internal compiler error: Abort trap 09:49:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, give me something to #ifdef on and I shall special case cygwin 09:49:54 <tusho> /opt/local/var/db/dports/build/_opt_local_var_db_dports_sources_rsync.rsync.darwinports.org_dpupdate_dports_lang_gdc/work/gcc-4.1.2/gcc/d/dmd/toobj.c:417: failed assertion `classinfo->structsize == CLASSINFO_SIZE' 09:49:54 <tusho> lib/common/tango/core/Exception.d:71: internal compiler error: Abort trap 09:49:56 <tusho> the fuckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk 09:50:03 <Deewiant> tusho: yeah, hooray for GDC 09:50:12 <tusho> ah: 09:50:12 <tusho> gdc (GCC) 4.1.2 20070214 ( (gdc 0.23, using dmd 1.007)) 09:50:12 <tusho> Copyright (C) 2006 Free Software Foundation, Inc. 09:50:13 <Deewiant> tusho: do you have the latest SVN? 09:50:17 <tusho> I AM EVER SO SLIGHTLY OUT OF DATE 09:50:17 <Deewiant> evidently not 09:50:36 <AnMaster> tusho, surely that is bad, you must of course use the last! ;P 09:50:46 <AnMaster> tusho, use cvs head of your glibc! 09:50:48 * AnMaster ducks 09:51:01 <tusho> AnMaster: django is worse 09:51:09 <tusho> well 09:51:09 <tusho> was 09:51:12 <tusho> they released 1.0 recently 09:51:13 <AnMaster> ah 09:51:18 <tusho> but before that they were on 0.96 09:51:24 <tusho> and the trunk was like 3 major releases ahead 09:51:29 <tusho> production enterprise websites used the trunk 09:51:31 <AnMaster> tusho, yes most projects tend to get a bit more stable by 1.0 09:51:38 <tusho> and the actual experimental development was on other branches scattered about 09:51:59 <tusho> Deewiant: will i have to reinstall dsss for the new gdc 09:52:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I can't reproduce it trivially 09:52:04 <Deewiant> tusho: I don't know 09:52:07 <tusho> Deewiant: :D 09:52:20 <Deewiant> probably not 09:52:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm... well give me an #ifdef for cygwin then, and I shall use normal putc for it 09:52:32 <tusho> i hope gdc compiles easy... 09:52:33 <AnMaster> unless it needs fputc not putc? 09:52:53 <tusho> http://sourceforge.net/projects/gdcmac 09:52:55 <tusho> june 1 2008 09:52:58 <tusho> woop woop 09:53:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, other places in the code also use these functions so... well I need *something to use in #ifdef to detect cygwin* 09:54:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, want the GCC command to list predefined #defines? 09:54:22 <AnMaster> echo | gcc -std=c99 -E -x c -dM - -o - 09:54:38 <AnMaster> see if there is anything about cygwin there 09:54:41 <Deewiant> outputs nothing :-D 09:54:48 <tusho> #ifdef _CYGWIN_ 09:54:49 <tusho> i think... 09:54:49 <AnMaster> ok that's strange.... 09:54:51 <tusho> osmething like that 09:55:00 <Deewiant> but yeah, __CYGWIN__ 09:55:03 <AnMaster> right 09:55:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, support.h, line 138 09:55:58 <AnMaster> change it to 09:56:01 <AnMaster> #if !defined(__CYGWIN__) && defined(_POSIX_THREAD_SAFE_FUNCTIONS) && (_POSIX_THREAD_SAFE_FUNCTIONS > 0) 09:56:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: btw, easier, echo | cpp -dM 09:56:12 <AnMaster> that is, add "!defined(__CYGWIN__) &&" 09:56:15 <tusho> Deewiant: what the fuck i have to switch gcc for gdc? 09:56:22 <Deewiant> tusho: ? 09:56:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm ok 09:56:40 <tusho> Deewiant: i hate how gcc language stuff requires compiling another gcc 09:56:44 <tusho> instead of plugging it into your existing one 09:56:49 <Deewiant> ah, yes, quite 09:57:02 <tusho> is there a dmd for os x yet... 09:57:04 <tusho> goddamn 09:57:06 <tusho> no. 09:57:07 <Deewiant> doubtful 09:57:18 <tusho> this was easy the last time i did it 09:57:18 <tusho> :| 09:57:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: btw, I get many warnings building cfunge 09:57:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, like? 09:58:04 <Deewiant> mostly implicit declarations 09:58:11 <Deewiant> and "warning: #warning is a GCC extension" 09:58:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm, I do include all headers I think 09:58:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh right.. that one 09:58:28 <Deewiant> also redundant redeclarations 09:58:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, like? 09:58:33 <tusho> warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: stack overflow 09:58:34 <Deewiant> and nested extern declarations 09:58:38 <AnMaster> care to pastebin some 09:59:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because I suspect many of those are in system headers, since cfunge turns on lots of warnings, that could lead to warnings about stuff in system headers 09:59:40 <AnMaster> I certainly don't get those warnings here you see 09:59:56 <AnMaster> I get *two* warnings, both in genx that tusho recommended 09:59:58 <Deewiant> baah, the paste broke, http://rafb.net/p/RMegHR33.html 10:00:17 <tusho> AnMaster: oooh so sorrrryyy! 10:00:21 <AnMaster> wow. cool breakage 10:00:25 <AnMaster> of the pastye 10:00:27 <AnMaster> paste* 10:00:28 <Deewiant> I resized the window 10:00:38 <Deewiant> and expected that it wouldn't break copying from it 10:00:41 <Deewiant> evidently I was wrong 10:00:57 <Deewiant> I'll just redirect make to a file 10:01:01 <AnMaster> D:/Progging/funge/others/cfunge-0.3.1/src/fingerprints/TURT/TURT.c: In function `GenerateCircle': 10:01:01 <AnMaster> D:/Progging/funge/others/cfunge-0.3.1/src/fingerprints/TURT/TURT.c:475: warning: nested extern declaration of `snprintf' 10:01:01 <AnMaster> <internal>:0: warning: redundant redeclaration of 'snprintf' 10:01:07 <AnMaster> to me, that makes no sense 10:01:13 <AnMaster> I do include the right header before 10:01:28 <AnMaster> so how could it be nested extern decl 10:01:51 <AnMaster> and if it was, it couldn't be redundant redeclaration 10:02:14 <AnMaster> those two warnings are mutually exclusive 10:02:27 <AnMaster> at least if you trust what the gcc man page says about them 10:02:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, somehow I suspect cygwin is doing something strange that breaks when you turn on lots of warning flags in GCC 10:03:23 <Deewiant> more legible: http://rafb.net/p/RPxTt679.html 10:03:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, lets see here: 10:03:53 <AnMaster> D:/Progging/funge/others/cfunge-0.3.1/lib/genx/genx.c: In function `storePrefix': 10:03:53 <AnMaster> D:/Progging/funge/others/cfunge-0.3.1/lib/genx/genx.c:345: warning: implicit declaration of function `snprintf' 10:03:53 <AnMaster> D:/Progging/funge/others/cfunge-0.3.1/lib/genx/genx.c:345: warning: nested extern declaration of `snprintf' 10:03:53 <AnMaster> <internal>:0: warning: redundant redeclaration of 'snprintf' 10:04:02 <Deewiant> I don't know, I'm just reporting 10:04:02 <AnMaster> doesn't that seem rather strange to you? 10:04:10 <AnMaster> just lets see if you agree with me 10:04:10 <Deewiant> I don't know what "nested extern" means 10:04:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, means putting: 10:04:19 <AnMaster> extern foo(); 10:04:22 <AnMaster> inside a function 10:04:35 <Deewiant> yeah, so snprintf is probably a macro 10:05:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it would also happen if you haven't included the right header. *but* I do include the right header. and it can't also be "redundant redeclaration" then 10:05:21 <AnMaster> some of those warnings are mutually exclusive 10:05:56 <AnMaster> snprintf needs #include <stdio.h> 10:05:59 <AnMaster> according to man page 10:06:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: some SOCK/SCKE fails in mycology 10:06:04 <tusho> i talk in a row a lot 10:06:08 <tusho> i wonder if it annoys anyone 10:06:13 <tusho> does it annoy any of you? 10:06:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not here hm 10:06:19 <tusho> i've gone 10-15 interrupted i think 10:06:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, with what does it fail on cygwin? 10:06:23 <tusho> average 3-4 10:06:24 <Deewiant> BAD: couldn't close original socket with K 10:06:29 <Deewiant> and then in SCKE 10:06:29 <Deewiant> BAD: need working B to test P 10:06:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh? that's odd... let me see 10:07:04 <AnMaster> if (shutdown(sockets[s]->fd, SHUT_RDWR) == -1) { 10:07:04 <AnMaster> goto error; 10:07:04 <AnMaster> } 10:07:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what Mycology version do you have? 10:07:09 <AnMaster> if (close(sockets[s]->fd) == -1) { 10:07:09 <AnMaster> goto error; 10:07:09 <AnMaster> } 10:07:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the one after you fixed the lock up in rc/funge and cfunge 10:07:49 <Deewiant> so what version 10:07:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, where does it say? 10:08:03 <Deewiant> just the latest date in readme.txt 10:08:07 <AnMaster> a sec 10:08:25 <AnMaster> 2008-08-30 - Fixed the case where SCKE is included in SOCK. 10:08:33 <Deewiant> alright 10:08:38 <AnMaster> too old? 10:08:42 <Deewiant> new enough 10:08:50 <Deewiant> newest released, I think 10:09:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, src/fingerprints/SOCK/SOCK.c, try adding something perror("K failed:" in FingerSOCKkill() after line 252 10:09:47 <AnMaster> error: 10:09:47 <AnMaster> FreeHandle(s); 10:09:49 <AnMaster> between those lines 10:09:50 <AnMaster> that is 10:10:12 <AnMaster> would say what went wrong at least with K 10:10:51 <AnMaster> oh and you have to add an include for stdio.h too to that file Deewiant 10:11:09 <Deewiant> K failed:: Transport endpoint is not connected 10:11:40 <AnMaster> hm 10:12:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok, that's strange... you see there is both a shutdown() and a close() call above 10:12:16 <Deewiant> B failed:: Address already in use 10:12:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, try adding some code to print to see which of those that fails 10:12:26 <Deewiant> that makes sense, because the K failed 10:12:33 <AnMaster> yes sure does 10:13:08 <AnMaster> possibly something doesn't like shutdown on a socket that didn't connect 10:13:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: shutdown fails 10:13:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, try to make it keep going to close after shutdown instead 10:13:30 <AnMaster> I think that may be the bug 10:13:52 <AnMaster> so just remove the if bit over shutdown 10:13:59 <AnMaster> and ignore the return value of shutdown() 10:14:00 <Deewiant> works fine if I comment out the goto error after shutdown 10:14:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: like the man page says 10:14:31 <Deewiant> ENOTCONN 10:14:32 <Deewiant> The specified socket is not connected. 10:14:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, right, *fixes that*, seems like linux, *bsd and OS X accepts shutdown on a non-connected socket though 10:14:41 <AnMaster> since it doesn't fail here 10:14:47 * AnMaster fixes 10:14:51 <Deewiant> so it looks like cygwin is more POSIX-compliant here ;-) 10:15:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and yes I fixed it locally, will commit soon 10:15:12 <tusho> pwnt 10:15:14 <tusho> :D 10:15:18 <AnMaster> tusho, not really 10:15:28 <AnMaster> if it is possible to track down a bug I'm fine with doing so 10:15:33 <tusho> AnMaster: note the ":D" 10:15:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: append a "&& errno != ENOTCONN" or what? 10:15:59 <Deewiant> or just call the close always 10:16:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm looking at man page atm 10:16:34 <AnMaster> just calling close anyway probably 10:17:09 <AnMaster> EBADF, ENOTCONN and ENOTSOCK will not cause any kind of horrible failure as far as I can see 10:17:49 <Deewiant> well whatever, that's that 10:18:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, right. and what about the compile failure in 3DSP? Any idea of cause? 10:18:55 <Deewiant> I think it was *l functions being used 10:18:57 <Deewiant> sinl etc 10:19:03 <Deewiant> link errors resulted 10:19:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah it doesn't implement those? 10:19:29 <Deewiant> evidently not if they don't link 10:19:50 <AnMaster> well, they are part of C99. But since older FreeBSD also miss them I was planning to add some sort of detection and fallback to non-l versions 10:19:57 <AnMaster> so that will be in next version too 10:21:49 <tusho> "We are happy to announce that W3C has integrated a version of HTML 5 conformance checker into a beta instance of the W3C Markup validator. That will help us to detect bugs, improve the user interface, and benefit from the large W3C communities" 10:21:50 <tusho> woop woop 10:22:47 <Deewiant> oh, nice 10:23:17 <tusho> http://qa-dev.w3.org/wmvs/HEAD/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Feso-std.org%2F&charset=(detect+automatically)&doctype=Inline&group=0 10:23:18 <tusho> woop woop 10:23:29 <tusho> no ugly button yet, though :P 10:24:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok, those fixes are in, the l vs. non-l math ones will probably be done later today 10:24:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway now you can put that on the mycology results page :) 10:25:02 <tusho> today I think I will finally buy tusho.net 10:25:11 <tusho> and go "woop woop" again 10:25:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, these were in r406. btw 10:25:21 <AnMaster> trunk 10:25:58 <AnMaster> revision-id: anmaster@envbot.org-20080907092316-eczkdchbs861mm1s 10:26:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("meep meep"). 10:26:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: nah, I need to run it in an environment where everything works 10:27:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, some of those you may never be able to get working under cygwin 10:27:16 <AnMaster> at least some of the fingerprints 10:27:23 <Deewiant> exactly, so I need to run it on a linux machine 10:27:29 <AnMaster> right 10:27:31 <Deewiant> just like RC/Funge, so that I can get TURT results 10:27:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what ones was it you had disabled on cygwin now again? 10:28:16 <Deewiant> can't remember, see the scrollback 10:28:45 <AnMaster> 3DSP,FIXP,PERL,REXP,TERM right 10:29:17 <AnMaster> 3DSP, FIXP, well those use sinl and such. PERL was _Exit. REXP and TERM.... not sure what could go wrong on cygwin in those 10:31:12 <AnMaster> actually, 3DSP does not use sinl? 10:32:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm at loss what was the issue in 3DSP 10:32:48 -!- Judofyr has joined. 10:33:10 <tusho> ok wtf happened to http://eso-std.org/ :| 10:33:32 <AnMaster> Parse error: syntax error, unexpected T_STRING, expecting ';' in /home/tusho/www/eso-std.org/user/themes/tusho-blogs/header.php on line 1 10:33:38 <AnMaster> looks like a php error 10:33:45 <tusho> thank you AnMaster, I kind of knew that. 10:33:49 <tusho> :| 10:33:56 * AnMaster is now known as CaptainObvious 10:34:31 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Jesus loves you"). 10:34:33 <AnMaster> tusho, possibly: echo $a "foo" could cause it, that is a missing . between variable and string 10:34:49 <tusho> nope, no concatenation going on here 10:34:51 <tusho> it's just a template file 10:34:53 <tusho> not a code file 10:34:57 <tusho> so just simple function calls and loops etc 10:35:09 <tusho> here, I can even paste the whole thing 10:35:31 <tusho> (the reason it is 1 line is because I automatically compact it before uploading, probably a placebo but it feels more compact... might stop doing that :P) 10:35:33 <tusho> <?php if (!defined('HABARI_PATH' )) { die;} ?><!DOCTYPE html><html lang="en"><head><title><?php if ($request->display_entry && isset($post)) { echo $post->title;} else { Options::out('title');} ?>
10:36:14 inserting newlines would help locate the error 10:36:21 yes, yes it would :p 10:36:21
10:36:23 this time 10:36:26 yes 10:36:28 that's the full thing then 10:36:31 anyway 10:36:35 I have a non-compacted version here 10:36:39 and no obvious causes for the error 10:36:44 anyway, try the non-compacted one on server 10:36:48 see what line it fails on 10:36:54 yea probably a good idea 10:36:59 site::out_url() doesn't have a ";", does the next statement just concatenate after it with multiple 's? 10:37:31 no 10:37:41 right of course not that would make no sense 10:37:51 oh 10:37:53 duh 10:37:53 10:37:59 tusho, lets see, assuming \n newlines, you save 1 byte / line per file by removing newlines? 10:38:00 should be foreach ($pages as $page) 10:38:02 >.< 10:38:10 AnMaster: well, no, much more 10:38:14 since, newlines in loops duplicate 10:38:19 and also it strips out general whitespace to 10:38:23 tusho, ah. hm 10:38:27 before the stuff was like 3 pages of lines not longer than 30 chars 10:38:34 now it's 3 lines of ... well, a lot, but quite a bit less than before 10:38:54 i'm gzipping the output on there too, it's still not as fast as some sites but it's very zippy compared to most 10:39:11 and it's just a 25 line shell script to compress&upload 10:39:18 tusho, for 1100 baud modems? ;) 10:39:23 :D 10:39:28 I suspect that it really doesn't matter 10:39:30 hmm 10:39:34 $pages isn't predefined...odd 10:39:35 you are over optimising 10:39:35 :P 10:39:53 AnMaster: actually i tested it when i made that script and it was a little faster 10:39:54 tusho, so if you ever claim that I am, you are just a hypocrite :P 10:39:58 you should have seen the whitespace it generated without it 10:40:01 i mean, literally, tons 10:40:07 newlines and like 5 spaces in a row all over the place 10:40:11 tusho, did you do profiling? 10:40:14 it's not over-optimizing, it's making the output sane ;) 10:40:21 AnMaster: yes. i reloaded a page and reloaded after compression. 10:40:24 it was faster. 10:40:31 tusho, how did you measure? 10:40:35 by wall clock? 10:40:38 by feeling? 10:40:39 AnMaster: human perception. 10:40:39 :) 10:40:46 not very exact 10:40:48 it's 24 lines of shell script i don't really care if it's placebo 10:40:57 hahah 10:41:21 it's just some trivial sed incantations that 1. makes the output of the templates look nicer (that whitespace abuse is really ugly) 2. save me a miniscule amount of bandwidth & make the site a miniscule amount faster & save a miniscule amount of disc 10:41:23 *disk 10:41:30 sounds like a good deal to me 10:42:07 hehe 10:42:28 tusho, and make finding cause of error a lot harder 10:42:38 "Notice: Undefined variable: pages in user/themes/tusho-blogs/header.php line 1" yes 10:42:45 uh, that one was easy 10:42:52 i thought $pages was predefined for themes 10:42:53 turns not 10:43:00 AnMaster: i just have to comment out the compression 10:43:09 agreed 10:43:14 besides, the php calls are trivial that the only time i get it wrong are when i do things like that for thing 10:43:22 because php's syntax is stupid and my brain wants it to not be :D 10:43:27 AnMaster: i meant for debugging 10:43:36 tusho, what do you think about the source of http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge/ 10:43:36 ? 10:43:44 AnMaster: it's xhtml 1.1 10:43:45 :) 10:43:48 or rather, :( 10:43:49 tusho, apart from that? 10:43:57 yeah, it's fine 10:44:08 tusho, do you think it is generated or hand written? 10:44:09 though 10:44:11 why "? 10:44:18 AnMaster: knowing you hand written 10:44:31 tusho, well hand written since it is a rather simple page 10:44:34 I don't need php 10:44:36 or such 10:44:39 for such a siumple 10:44:48 tusho, why not "? 10:45:01 AnMaster: it makes reading&editing the source more obscure and is unneeded when you coudl just use " 10:45:13 hm true 10:45:13 although " isn't a quotation mark. 10:45:19 “ and ” are :P 10:45:40 tusho, if I want good typography I would use LaTeX not html :P 10:46:18 AnMaster: another comment on that page is that I'm not a fan of the background colour 10:46:20 but that's it 10:46:32 tusho, you mean off-white color? 10:46:38 AnMaster: yes, it makes it harder to read the text for me 10:46:55 tusho, well I need non-white since it is hard to read for some if it is white 10:47:01 forgot the name of the condition 10:47:02 AnMaster: why specify it at all 10:47:10 those people will have it set in their preferences 10:47:24 additionally your link colours are almost the browsers default, the only thing you really need is: 10:47:29 10:47:35 well 10:47:41 img{border:0} 10:47:41 too 10:47:42 you might want a