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11:37:47 <Slereah> Maybe I should get the Linux shirt :o
11:38:12 <Slereah> I wonder if it would be considered cheating in programming exams
11:38:58 <Slereah> A bunch of useful stuff on the penguin, apparently
11:40:11 <ais523> it's not clear enough to see what data's there
11:40:19 <ais523> but my guess is it's mostly POSIX shell commands
11:41:13 <Slereah> Which would be nice. I really suck at it.
11:43:27 <Slereah> Man. I really hate the online stuff that won't send you your password
11:43:33 <Slereah> It's always about generating a new one.
11:43:41 <ais523> Slereah: it doesn't know your password
11:43:41 <Slereah> Fuck it, I'll just write it down.
11:43:52 <ais523> that's why it generates a new one
11:44:00 <Slereah> Yeah, but putting it on a post-it might also be bad security.
11:44:17 <ais523> the database will only store a hash of the password
11:44:23 <ais523> so the password can be checked, but not retrieved
11:44:25 <Slereah> But damn, that's what I'm gonna do
11:44:45 <Slereah> I'm tired of generating new passwords for the shit I almost never use
11:48:02 <Slereah> What I do love, though, is the current euro-dollar exchange rate :D
11:50:04 <Slereah> I feel richer than a lion if that lion was rich
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13:50:25 <ais523> I have to go in an hour or so, btw
13:50:28 <ais523> but I'll be back later
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14:14:41 <tusho> http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/31/35/31_35_mm_bjs_reaction.html
14:15:00 * ais523 apologises for all the quit/join spam
14:15:12 <ais523> also I sent a ping to myself about 20 seconds ago and it hasn't returned yet, no idea if any of you can see this then
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14:16:30 <tusho> ais523: a news article with an unfortunate/possibly-intentional headline
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14:19:50 <ais523> tusho: you know how traceroute works?
14:19:54 <ais523> my connection problems remind me of that but with the IRC connect sequence
14:19:56 <ais523> or possibly the way they sequence DNA
14:20:00 <ais523> stopping at a random point and seeing what the value is at that point
14:20:12 <ais523> also, half the time I manage to stay online long enough to see your paste
14:20:28 <ais523> the other half I lose my connection during the connect sequence
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14:23:36 <ais523_> that's probably a record for bad connection quality for me
14:23:38 <ais523_> although I've done pretty badly in the past
14:23:43 <tusho> ais523_: what do you want the version string to be
14:23:44 <ais523_> ais523: I like your quit message
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14:23:50 <ais523> nobody's going to see this line anyway, probably, so I may as well write whatever I like
14:24:08 <tusho> now pick a VERSION reply
14:24:09 <ais523> tusho: what is the version string in this context?
14:24:14 <tusho> CTCP VERSION reply
14:24:20 <ais523> make it a short esoprogram
14:24:29 <ais523> ,[[-].,] or something like that
14:24:39 <tusho> how about 'netcat'
14:24:46 <tusho> people will think you're the fastest typer ever
14:24:46 <ais523> no, I don't like lying about that
14:25:08 <ais523> when people CTCP version me and get "netcat" 30 seconds later, it's because I replied with "netcat"!
14:25:26 <tusho> olol, it listens on 31337 by default
14:25:37 <tusho> you can tell this program was written by 31337 irc users in 1999
14:25:40 <ais523> I wonder how many other programs use that particular port?
14:26:12 <ais523> unfortunately port 523's a bit too low to be usable
14:26:19 <ais523> and 415523 is too high
14:26:34 <tusho> ais523: bouncer name?
14:26:51 <tusho> happy fluffy puppy irc bouncer
14:27:02 <ais523> but put flourescent in there somewhere
14:27:14 <tusho> happy fluffy flourescent puppy irc bouncer
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14:29:09 <ais523> my pings aren't returning again...
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14:35:46 <ais523_> hmm... fifth attempt lucky
14:35:52 <tusho> /msg me a bouncer pass
14:35:59 <tusho> it won't be tmp, but it won't help people impersonate you
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14:38:08 <ais523> actually, I'm giving up for a couple of hours or so, it isn't worth trying to stay connected under these conditions
14:38:13 <ais523> hopefully I'll be back later, and I'll use an entirely different connection then
14:38:20 <ais523> also, self-ping time was 38 seconds just then
14:38:24 <tusho> i'll leave your password as puppy then,
14:38:34 <ais523> well, say it in the channel, will yo?
14:38:37 <ais523> you'll have to change it now
14:38:43 <tusho> doesn't help people actually impersonate
14:38:46 <tusho> it doesn't nickserv
14:38:49 <ais523_> that's to get connected at all
14:38:49 <ais523_> how long it will last remains to be seen
14:38:49 -!- ais523_ has quit (Success).
14:38:55 <ais523> also I don't know where to put the password
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14:45:40 <ais523> i am testing the bouncer
14:46:08 <tusho> ais523: you are now disconnected
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15:05:15 <tusho> ̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀à̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀a
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15:33:52 <ais523> tusho: I'm on a different connection this time
15:34:00 <tusho> ais523: i set up the bouncer
15:34:08 <tusho> might be worth using for futureproofing?
15:34:24 <ais523> might just be better never to go into the Library again if I want a reliable connection
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15:37:27 <tusho> ais523: ya read me?
15:37:53 <ais523> it's not set up properly yet
15:37:55 <tusho> ais523: create an artificial network drop to test that?
15:38:00 <ais523> let me finish setting it up
15:38:00 <tusho> say "going now" before you do
15:38:04 <ais523> and ok, dropping the network now
15:38:04 <tusho> i'll test pinging you after that
15:38:36 <tusho> ais523: did it tell you about my pings?
15:38:36 <ais523> I saw 8 9 and 10 in realtime
15:38:43 <ais523> the others came in a batch
15:38:48 <ais523> presumably being replayed
15:39:07 <tusho> also, you have an @eso-std.org hostname now
15:39:25 * tusho considers settin' up sum of dat bouncer for himself
15:39:45 <tusho> think i'd need to recompile
15:39:47 <tusho> meh, i'll do it later
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15:40:06 <tusho> Hm.. I wonder how it'd handle like 5000 messages overnight?
15:40:13 <tusho> ... Probably just lag my irc client for a few seconds sending them all
15:40:31 <ais523> tusho: I want to test something
15:40:59 <tusho> yeah... lots of monkeys
15:41:28 <ais523> ok, it remembers my identifiedness between connects
15:41:30 <ais523> no reason not to reidentify though just in case
15:41:42 <tusho> ais523: yeah, it doesn't disconnect from the server
15:41:43 <ais523> also, this way I always win at the hi tusho game
15:41:46 <tusho> i never saw you leave
15:41:48 <ais523> because you have no way to know whether I'm online
15:42:01 <tusho> it doesn't respond to ctcps when you're offline
15:42:03 <tusho> that's a feature apparently
15:42:06 <tusho> although i have no idea why...
15:42:22 <ais523> presumably so you don't ping people and think they're online
15:43:01 <tusho> ais523: disconnect for a minute will you? Wanna test if it sets away.
15:44:38 <ais523> could you get it to hide my IP on disconnect easily?
15:44:52 <tusho> ais523: hmm... i think so
15:45:02 <ais523> that way it would be an anonymising bouncer, as well as a connection-sustaining bouncer
15:45:09 <ais523> and if it's easy to anonymise you may as well
15:45:12 <ais523> (if it isn't I don't mind)
15:45:16 <tusho> ais523: yes, it is, a sec
15:45:39 <tusho> ais523: gonna disconnect the bouncer to add me as an admin so I can set that, you'll have an outage of a few minutes, OK?
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15:48:15 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | help ps kill i eof flush show ls.
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16:08:06 <ais523> hmm... does anyone here know OCaml?
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16:08:28 <tusho> but i know people who know it
16:08:38 <ais523> well, I'll just have to learn it this afternoon, then
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16:09:45 <tusho> ais523: here's a general overview from what i know
16:10:25 <tusho> it's like Haskell, except it's strict, there aren't any typeclass thingies (floating point is +. instead of + - ugly things like that, because of it), it has OOP-style classes, and various other differences.
16:10:37 <tusho> fast enough for system tools, i don't think an os would be much of a stretch
16:11:10 <ais523> that's pretty similar information to what I know about it
16:11:31 <tusho> ais523: http://www.ocaml-tutorial.org/?
16:11:34 <Deewiant> "like Haskell except it's strict" :-P
16:11:48 <Deewiant> which means, to me, that it's very unlike Haskell.
16:11:49 <tusho> the guy who wrote that is a crazy ocaml programmer guy
16:11:53 <tusho> Deewiant: whatever
16:13:56 <ais523> tusho: on my OS, the programming tutorials are stored in the repos
16:13:59 <ais523> so I don't even need to use the Web
16:14:07 <tusho> ais523: ocaml-tutorial isn't an official one
16:14:13 <tusho> i tried the official one once, it kind of sucked
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16:16:09 <ais523> heh, w3m even works with the mouse
16:16:30 <tusho> i thought you said without
16:16:39 <ais523> I'm used to using it without
16:16:46 <ais523> way better than most graphical browsers at keyboard use
16:20:28 <tusho> Meanwhile, pigs are now officially referred to as 'pre-bacon'.
16:21:04 <ais523> hmm... OCaml claim to have half the performance of C
16:21:10 <ais523> which is pretty impressive for a functional language
16:21:23 <ais523> I can believe it too, it's effectively decompiling the programs into the imperative equivalent wherever that makes sense
16:21:41 <tusho> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=all
16:21:57 <tusho> gcc, ats, g++, java, lisaac, ghc, fortran, lisp
16:22:01 <tusho> that is not haskell
16:22:32 <Deewiant> the situation in that regard is better on the 4-core side
16:22:41 <Deewiant> tusho: but, have you looked at ATS? it's much worse
16:22:49 <tusho> ATS appeared out of nowhere
16:23:02 <ais523> PHP's last on that list?
16:23:08 <ais523> maybe we should enter some esolangs
16:23:13 <ais523> and challenge the bottom of the scale
16:23:24 <tusho> ais523: ruby isn't even _on_ that list
16:23:26 <Deewiant> ruby's not on the list, probably because it was too slow ;-P
16:23:36 <tusho> probably for the best
16:23:36 <ais523> ruby will be on the list eventually
16:23:42 <ais523> just the programs haven't finished running yet
16:23:44 <Deewiant> but you can still look at the old one which had a lot more langs
16:23:45 <Deewiant> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=all
16:23:53 <Deewiant> and ruby is at the bottom of /that/ list.
16:24:02 <Deewiant> a bit over twice as slow ar php.
16:24:07 <ais523> actually, they said they aren't putting langs there with more than a couple of timeouts
16:24:08 <tusho> so, uh, in 2054...
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16:24:16 <ais523> maybe Ruby was timing out on a couple of the projects
16:25:05 <ais523> also, I reckon I could get way below either of the C implementations there using gcc-bf, once it's finished
16:25:28 <ais523> hmm... #esoteric is one of those places where doing badly at benchmarks is a sport
16:25:51 <ais523> maybe one of these days we'll get a hello world which takes over 24 hours to run
16:26:19 <Deewiant> the quad-core benchmarks, with all the unsafeGHC# entries set to a weight of 0: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=all&xfullcpu=1&xmem=0&xloc=0&binarytrees=1&chameneosredux=1&fannkuch=0&fasta=1&knucleotide=0&mandelbrot=1&meteor=1&nbody=0&pidigits=1®exdna=1&revcomp=0&spectralnorm=0&threadring=1&calc=calculate
16:26:33 <tusho> by a person on everything2.com
16:26:40 <tusho> it had an md5 of the string hello world
16:26:43 <tusho> and it randomly generates strings
16:26:45 <tusho> and prints it out if it matches
16:26:53 <ais523> I meant a genuine version
16:26:56 <tusho> Deewiant: cuz it was in 2000 or something
16:27:04 <ais523> maybe by chaining together esocompilers
16:27:05 <Deewiant> tusho: the md5 is still pointless
16:27:12 <Deewiant> just plain randomizing would be just as slow :-P
16:27:18 <ais523> also, is hugeurl.com down?
16:27:37 <Deewiant> http://hugeurl.wiggy.net/ exists
16:27:39 <ais523> although I can agree with Deewiant to some extent
16:29:45 <ais523> Google confirms that hugeurl.com used to exist
16:29:52 <ais523> nowadays it's a 403 though
16:33:54 <ais523> yep, SKI doesn't work in OCaml, it must have decent typing
16:35:44 * ais523 is always annoyed that combinators don't type properly
16:36:00 <ais523> well, not those ones, anyway
16:36:25 <Deewiant> although hmm, do you mean specifically Ix -> x, Kxy -> x, Sxyz -> xz(yz)?
16:36:53 <ais523> as it requires the infinite type 'a -> 'a -> 'a -> ...
16:37:18 <ais523> btw the Haskell and OCaml interps I have give pretty different error messages for that situation, but both are useful
16:38:53 <Deewiant> I'm sure the fix-point combinator can be defined in ocaml somehow, though, so that's not such a big loss ;-)
16:39:56 <ais523> hmm... OCaml doesn't allow things to be defined in terms of themself, at least not variables
16:40:05 <ais523> let a = [1] @ a;; is an error
16:40:32 <Deewiant> I think such is somewhat annoying
16:40:38 <ais523> This kind of expression is not allowed as right-hand side of `let rec'
16:41:27 <Deewiant> maybe it recognizes that that would loop infinitely?
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16:49:22 <tusho> ais523: why are you learning it?
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16:50:25 <ais523> tusho: my project for this year will probably be written in OCaml
16:50:31 <ais523> or at least interface with OCaml code a lot
16:50:36 <tusho> ephemist or ephemerist?
16:50:48 <ais523> I've never heard the first word
16:50:58 <ais523> but the second would presumably mean "someone who specialises in ephemera"
16:51:05 <ais523> which is a pretty strange meaning to be saying in the first place
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16:51:21 <tusho> ephemerists are those who like ephemera and often like to preserve it
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16:51:47 <tusho> i'm an ephemerist in that i absolutely hate things expiring so i try and preserve info as much as possible...
16:51:56 <tusho> but i think perhaps ephemist is more correct
16:52:22 <ais523> oklocop: it's to do with hardware synthesis
16:52:59 <tusho> ephemist gets basically no results
16:53:02 <tusho> ephemerist gets a ton
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17:10:53 <tusho> I wonder how much lag eso-std.org gives u
17:11:06 <ais523> which isn't really that accurate
17:11:35 <tusho> the difference between
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17:11:39 <tusho> and you -> bouncer -> server
17:11:50 <ais523> it depends on how approximately en route the bouncer is
17:12:00 <tusho> ais523: of course, our pings will always be immediate
17:12:03 <ais523> if someone's been filling the Internet with duff routing information again, it may even be quicker
17:12:07 <tusho> since psyBNC will respond to them directly
17:12:10 <tusho> as we're on the same server
17:12:28 <tusho> so no freenode involved there
17:13:27 <tusho> ais523: silly wabbit, why not d$?
17:14:00 <tusho> ais523: there has to be a sed->perl compiler using perl regexps
17:14:10 <ais523> I've never looked at its source though
17:14:18 <tusho> right, then say your corrections are in s2p
17:25:18 <tusho> In a stunning break from tradition, this project is going well.
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17:26:38 <tusho> the * glob ignores .files
17:27:01 <tusho> so "rm -rf ~/my-aretea/*" will work fine
17:27:10 <tusho> since all the important stuff is in a dot-directory
17:27:16 <tusho> even so, i'm uneasy actually doing that...
17:27:37 <ais523> you could use a [] glob to whitelist various first characters
17:27:52 <ais523> ~/my-aretea/[a-zA-Z0-9]*
17:27:59 <tusho> most likely i'll just let the user easily use it to clear the cache
17:28:11 <tusho> instead of manually doing it
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17:30:35 <Slereah> What was that website, with the programming language in plain english?
17:30:54 <tusho> http://www.osmosian.com/
17:32:17 <tusho> "What if I'm not happy?
17:32:20 <tusho> Try chocolate cake."
17:32:25 <tusho> How about a nice big cup of YOUR LANGUAGE SUCKS ASS
17:32:52 <tusho> I like how the purchasing stuff can't even work
17:33:00 <tusho> card number + expiry + name + email
17:33:04 <tusho> you need to know the card type and such...
17:33:31 <tusho> var calfilelocation="cal-3037.zip";
17:33:31 <tusho> var samplefilelocation="sample.zip";
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17:59:33 <tusho> [[I see the case of something that you CANNOT do but are privileged to
17:59:33 <tusho> do as something like if the government granted you a license to
17:59:33 <tusho> operate a faster-than-light vehicle powered by a perpetual motion
17:59:34 <tusho> machine on public roads.]]
18:10:00 <Slereah> tusho : You could try it for all cards:
18:11:03 <Slereah> I love the "What language is it written in? Plain English".
18:11:17 <Slereah> Yeah, and not in Assembly.
18:11:27 <Slereah> since all processors are in Plain English.
18:11:58 <Slereah> He conjured a Plain English compiler from space and wrote Plain English in it.
18:13:31 <Slereah> https://www.osmosian.com/page04.png
18:13:40 <Slereah> What our customers could be saying, if held at gunpoint.
18:19:01 <Slereah> "It should be noted that all this functionality is embodied in a single, stand-alone, native-code executable less than one megabyte in size."
18:19:11 <Slereah> Feh! I could create ten languages in less space than that!
18:20:46 <tusho> I love how they think Noam Chomsky would somehow benefit from a programming language with keywords from English
18:22:08 <Slereah> Maybe he meant Nim Chimpski
18:22:11 <Slereah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim_Chimpsky
18:37:00 <Slereah> This language is the Hitler of programming language D:
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18:38:38 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...
18:38:56 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...
18:39:00 <tusho> Slereah: just mentally replace 'kludge' and 'whore' with 'system'
18:40:28 <Slereah> I wonder if they did anything since the last time I visited
18:44:30 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:47:48 <tusho> -psyBNC: Tue Sep 30 17:47:30 :connect from sm01-fap04.bham.ac.uk
18:47:49 <tusho> -psyBNC: Tue Sep 30 17:47:30 :User ais523 logged in.
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19:09:16 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving").
19:11:35 <optbot> tusho: What you're saying is roughly equivalent to "I student."
19:11:35 <optbot> fungot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarball#Tarbombs
19:11:36 <fungot> optbot: yes there is, foof? it strikes me as something that works for a certain amount of experience in building software.
19:11:37 <optbot> fungot: there are two things it's good at
19:11:38 <optbot> fungot: you can change it
19:11:38 <fungot> optbot: i was being sarcastic
19:11:39 <fungot> optbot: yeah, that in perl multi dimensional arrays are flattened because it suited the author best at the moment
19:11:40 <optbot> fungot: GOOD - www. redirects to www.www
19:11:47 <tusho> optbot: fungot: You guys have the best conversations
19:11:48 <optbot> tusho: ok that's insane
19:11:48 <fungot> tusho: testing it, that is
19:11:55 <optbot> tusho: i'm sure there's foo-in-jvm for some useful values of foo
19:12:01 <tusho> optbot: JVM for OS!
19:12:06 <tusho> optbot: anyway. fungot your opinions?
19:12:06 <optbot> tusho: and flip the accept/reject states
19:12:06 <fungot> tusho: keymaker probably wanted a c version faster than list? because smalltalk has it?
19:12:13 <tusho> fungot: that makes no sense
19:12:20 <ais523> actually I rather like the idea of a JVM OS
19:12:35 <tusho> http://www.jnode.org/
19:12:41 <ais523> except it should have a #esoteric twist
19:12:52 <ais523> such as be portable to a huge number of different windowing systems, despite being an OS
19:13:00 <ais523> as a sort of abstraction inversion
19:13:14 <ais523> it should try to model all sorts of low-level stuff but access it through high level Java stuff
19:13:20 <tusho> jnode is disturbingly useful looking:
19:13:21 <tusho> http://www.jnode.org/screenshots/jnode-0.2.7/5.png
19:13:24 <tusho> it runs swing and everything
19:13:36 <ais523> (the classic example is implementing threading constructs in ADA)
19:13:38 <oerjan> an inside-out software hierarchy!
19:14:02 <ais523> heh, on jnode presumably Swing and AWT would be the same
19:14:11 <ais523> because Swing /is/ the native windowing system...
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19:14:33 <tusho> AWT is probably unimplemented
19:14:36 <tusho> or if not, mapped to swing
19:14:43 <ais523> mapped to Swing would be my guess
19:14:55 <ais523> whoops, someone new has joined the channel, and we're discussing Java
19:15:28 <ais523> <Uleibheist> Your comment is subject to review, and will normally be included below: the review is simply to exclude unacceptable language (such as Java).
19:15:37 <tusho> ais523: where's that from? :-)
19:15:39 <ais523> also, I probably got that nick wrong
19:15:46 <ais523> it's Claudio Calvelli's IRC nick I think
19:15:50 <ais523> but I probably typoed it as it looks wrong
19:16:19 <ais523> and more specifically it's from the CLC-INTERCAL guestbook
19:17:45 <oerjan> what's the preferred GUI toolkit for INTERCAL?
19:18:09 <ais523> at a guess, GTK, or possibly Win32 API, as it interfaces most easily with C
19:18:23 <ais523> but that doesn't have GUI toolkit bindings really
19:18:43 <oerjan> oh so INTERCAL has a good C interface?
19:18:46 <ais523> but AFAIK there are no real INTERCAL GUI programs
19:18:54 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:18:59 <ais523> oerjan: C-INTERCAL allows linking of INTERCAL programs with C programs
19:19:12 <ais523> it's all very simple, you write COME FROMs and other INTERCAL-like flow commands in the C program
19:19:30 <ais523> well, if you follow the instructions, anyway
19:19:36 <ais523> which tell you not to do a huge list of things that could break it
19:19:43 <ais523> mostly because C doesn't really like cross-function gotos
19:20:15 -!- Corun_ has joined.
19:20:21 <oc2k1> that would smash the stack....
19:20:40 <ais523> if you're interested, http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/src/ick_ec.h is the source
19:20:43 <ais523> and it doesn't smash the stack
19:20:57 -!- Corun_ has changed nick to Corun.
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19:21:03 <ais523> it longjmps out of as many functions as it can safely jump out of without losing data, then calls the function you're jumping into and gotos the relevant line
19:21:24 <ais523> all nice and transparent to the user, except it makes something of a hash out of all the variables on the stack
19:22:02 <tusho> http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/src/ick_ec.h is the kind of code I wish I could write so I could write all day
19:22:22 <ais523> that's one of the only pieces of code I think I ever pseudocoded beforehand
19:22:25 <ais523> to make sure it was right
19:22:57 <ais523> luckily it works great in a debugger so long as you set suffficiently many breakpoints and don't try to single-step past any of the longjmps
19:23:14 <ais523> basically when you encounter a longjmp, you hit c and hope you remembered to set a breakpoint on the other side
19:23:31 <ais523> the longjmps are in the associated .c file, though, not the .h
19:23:45 <ais523> the .c file handles the INTERCAL end of things, the .h handles the C end of things
19:23:59 * ais523 considers renaming ick_ec.h to ick_ec.i just to get the symmetry perfect
19:30:36 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host).
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19:51:23 <tusho> in another unexpected turn, the project is still going well, and i managed to tweak a bit of it without the whole thing falling down just now
19:51:37 <tusho> i wonder when my brain was replaced...
19:52:03 <ais523> tusho: no, it's just that the laws of physics were repealed last week
19:52:10 <tusho> a scam, i suppose?
19:52:11 <ais523> some sort of scam involving a Fountain...
19:52:19 <tusho> i never liked fountains anyway
19:52:29 <oerjan> except for the strong force
19:52:40 <ais523> oerjan: they were fully repealed, but people conform to them anyway mostly due to custom
19:53:08 <oerjan> hm, that's not actually a change. we always did that.
19:53:24 <ais523> going against them gets you some funny looks and a 3-in-20 chance of being hunted down by a pack of vigilante ninjas
19:54:01 <oerjan> the ninjas are not a problem, unless they disobey the laws too, which would be hypocritical.
19:54:29 <ais523> oerjan: they're ninjas, there's no way to tell if they disobey the laws or not
19:55:15 <oerjan> well even better, that means they'll be occupied hunting down each other
19:56:05 <ais523> that's why there's only a 3-in-20 chance
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19:57:32 <oerjan> anyway another trick is to only break the laws in such a way that it looks like they haven't been broken.
19:58:12 <ais523> given that this is the laws of physics we're talking about, couldn't you break the laws in such a way that they actually hadn't been broken?
19:59:00 <oerjan> changing the past is highly dangerous, as you should well know
20:01:12 <tusho> my mac's fan went on full blas, it does that sometimes
20:01:16 <tusho> only stops when i restart
20:01:22 <tusho> probably should get it checked out
20:01:25 <tusho> but yeah, didn't want it to catch fire
20:01:42 <oerjan> tusho: you will be surprised to know we didn't notice
20:01:53 <tusho> because of the bouncer
20:02:01 <tusho> because -psyBNC told him.
20:02:05 <tusho> since he's on the same bouncer
20:02:20 <oerjan> psychic powers now... let me call those ninjas
20:02:20 <ais523> tusho's motivation for configuring a system which makes us both appear to be always online, except to each other, is clearly to confuse #esoteric
20:02:46 <tusho> its easy to figure out if we're online
20:03:22 <tusho> i saw everything that happened when i was gone
20:03:22 <ais523> oh, and happy Australian Mailman Reminders Day, everyone!
20:03:26 <tusho> since my bouncer told me about it
20:03:29 <oerjan> hah, you're only doing it to ESCAPE MY MIGHTY FLYSWATTER
20:03:37 <tusho> ais523: ha, last time i said that AnMaster yelled at me because i just made it up
20:03:48 <tusho> and i told him that it was simple, i linked him to mailman reminder day definitions
20:03:49 <ais523> it's become something of a tradition, though, I think
20:03:55 <oklocop> tusho: can i be on your bouncer too
20:03:56 <tusho> and then said it was the ones from australia
20:04:09 <oklocop> i'm not sure i want to, but i want to know whether i have the opportunity!
20:04:15 <ais523> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Happy+Mailman+Reminders+Day&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a
20:04:21 -!- oklocop has changed nick to oklopod.
20:04:22 <tusho> oklocop: it makes you connected forever
20:04:26 <tusho> even if your internet connection goes down
20:04:29 <tusho> when you reconnect
20:04:33 <tusho> it spews to you all the lines that you missed
20:04:34 <oklopod> yes i've licked bouncers before
20:04:35 <tusho> while you were gone
20:04:35 <ais523> first hit: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2004-April/016708.html
20:04:42 <tusho> oklopod: yes but most don't do the latter
20:04:49 <tusho> ais523: yes, but AnMaster took issue with the 'australian' modifier
20:04:55 <ais523> see, the Python mailing lists had us beaten by years
20:05:04 <ais523> tusho: well it happens 12 hours earlier in Australia
20:05:07 <tusho> oklopod: unfortunately since it just slams it back at you, they all are from the same timestamp
20:05:09 <ais523> and a day before for us here in the UK
20:05:10 <tusho> but who cares about timestamps
20:05:26 <ais523> tusho: get it to send you the messages retroactively?
20:05:44 <tusho> best would be to have it a specific protocol
20:05:46 <tusho> instead of just an irc server
20:05:51 <tusho> so that it can send the right time
20:06:17 <ais523> http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/search?query=tag%3Amailman
20:06:22 <tusho> http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/search?query=tag%3Amailman
20:06:26 <tusho> is where i discovered it
20:06:33 <tusho> and now i consider it my duty to spread it everywhere
20:06:35 <oerjan> oh _those_ reminders. i get a couple from Agora
20:06:51 <ais523> http://chris-lamb.co.uk/2008/02/01/happy-mailman-day-sun/
20:06:53 <tusho> oerjan: BRINGS YOU BACK
20:06:53 <oerjan> i thought this was about physical mailman :D
20:07:24 <tusho> the plural of the program mailman is mailmans
20:07:28 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
20:07:31 <tusho> as the plural of computer mouses is mouses.
20:07:43 -!- Slereah has joined.
20:08:40 <ais523> oerjan: tusho's just trying to teach AnMaster bad English, I reckon
20:09:07 <tusho> its just how i use it
20:09:11 <oerjan> there once were three mice who lived in three hice
20:09:14 <ais523> m4wrap(`this is how to do a quit message')there's something hidden at the start of this line that none of you can see
20:09:20 <ais523> but when I quit you'll be able to see it
20:09:22 <tusho> ais523: i can see it!
20:09:25 <tusho> ais523: m4wrap(`this is how to do a quit message')there's something hidden at the start of this line that none of you can see
20:09:34 <ais523> then the m4wrap will triggerr
20:09:41 <ais523> until then you have no way of knowing its there
20:09:52 <ais523> (N.B. if this fails please set your IRC client to parse m4)
20:11:46 <tusho> Meanwhile, ais523 is still crazy.
20:12:15 <oerjan> also, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.
20:13:26 -!- Judofyr has joined.
20:14:55 <ais523> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mailman+day
20:17:31 <olsner> who would do something as crazy as setting their IRC client to parse m4?
20:18:20 <oerjan> olsner: the answer should be obvious
20:18:36 <fizzie> You can also opt to set your brain to parse m4.
20:18:49 <ais523> fizzie: that isn't physically possible, have you /seen/ m4?
20:19:09 <fizzie> Only the little bit I've run across in autoconfy things.
20:19:10 <olsner> fizzie: hmm, that'd explain alot of the behaviour of people in this channel
20:19:31 <oerjan> And thus, olsner was enlightened.
20:19:32 <olsner> oklo-something has probably done that
20:19:58 <ais523> actually, I imagine that oklopod could quite possibly mentally calculate m4
20:20:17 <ais523> after all, oklopod is programming-the-noun
20:20:18 * oerjan suddenly has an idea for an #esoteric slogan
20:20:25 <tusho> olsner: sez the thue-in-mod_rewrite
20:20:29 <oerjan> "Bringing madness to a planet near you"
20:20:40 <ais523> oerjan: I like that, actually
20:20:40 <olsner> ais523: he'd recite an m4 implementation in BF, more likely
20:20:47 <tusho> also, oklopod could trivially do it, probably
20:20:51 -!- Mony has quit ("Ne regrettons pas le passé, ne nous préoccupons pas de l'avenir : le sage vit dans le présent.").
20:20:59 * ais523 concludes that Mony must be some form of modern art
20:21:12 <olsner> tusho: bah, that was trivial once I got my compiler done
20:21:14 <oerjan> we have not quite decided that yet
20:22:21 <olsner> curiously though, sed turned out to be the language of choice for writing the compiler
20:22:48 <oerjan> oh no, oklopod has become one of the pod people
20:23:18 <oerjan> ais523: it's a cross between Monet and money
20:24:09 <ais523> olsner: I have a Thue-without-certain-punctuation-marks-to-sed compiler written in sed somewhere
20:25:17 <oklopod> i don't wanna dissappoint you, but i don't know what m4 is.
20:25:30 <oklopod> unless it's like an airplane or something.
20:25:46 <ais523> oklopod: it's a programming language which would be an esolang if less widespread
20:25:54 <oerjan> ais523: let's just say it's probably a planet _very_ near you
20:25:59 <oklopod> then i think i've heard about i
20:26:24 <ais523> oklopod: try running the m4 command on your computer
20:27:09 <ais523> oh in that case m4 is the name of a motorway
20:28:02 <ais523> I'm not very good at m4
20:28:28 <olsner> oklopod: it's the language you write configure.ac and sendmail.conf files in
20:28:42 <ais523> sendmail.conf is written in m4?
20:28:58 <olsner> well, no, one common package for *generating* sendmail configuration files is written in m4
20:29:07 <ais523> that also explains a lot
20:29:09 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:29:10 <olsner> the sendmail config format is worse... *much* worse
20:29:29 -!- Slereah has joined.
20:30:05 <tusho> yay, i have plugins working
20:30:11 <ais523> to think about m4, think of the C preprocessor
20:30:23 <ais523> so that after something was expanded, it checks for macros again
20:30:32 <ais523> then think about a crazy quoting scheme
20:30:38 <ais523> and commands which do illogical things
20:31:17 <oc2k1> Idea: Modified brainfuck: [] is only a if construction and the code tape is an endless loop. Maybe it is also possible to remove the recursion of [] so only a single if(0)goto next if instructions remains...
20:31:18 <ais523> btw, m4 has built-in commands to change its own syntax, which people normally end up using
20:31:38 <ais523> oc2k1: I think that one's been had before
20:32:03 <ais523> but if you like, take a look at http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/pit/sort.i
20:32:09 <tusho> If you cycle the code.
20:32:14 <ais523> that's INTERCAL not Brainfuck
20:32:16 <ais523> but it's the same idea
20:32:29 <tusho> would be an echo program
20:32:30 <ais523> nothing but nested computed ABSTAINs and a loop enclosing the program
20:32:32 <tusho> in a cyclic brainfuck
20:32:49 <oc2k1> ,. would be an echo program
20:33:03 <tusho> oc2k1: you need nested loops
20:33:16 <ais523> I'm actually wondering
20:33:25 <tusho> ais523: i think dbfi has 4 nested loops
20:33:25 <ais523> is 2 enough, for instance?
20:33:33 <ais523> well, it must be at most 4 then
20:33:44 <tusho> ,. doesn't terminate on EOF
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20:34:27 <ais523> tusho: you created an infinitely nested set of loops there!
20:34:47 <tusho> an infinite cyclic brainfuck with []=if echo program is ,[.
20:36:26 <ais523> define(`divert', `ifelse(`$#', `0', ``$0'', `builtin(`$0', $@)')')
20:36:31 <ais523> that's from the GNU m4 manual
20:36:40 <oc2k1> it should be possible to write a BF interpreter with a single loop and if constructions. In that case the nested loops won't be nessesary for turing completenes
20:36:48 <ais523> explaining how to define the divert command not to trigger on random occurences of the word divert inside the text you're operating on
20:37:32 <tusho> a single, program-wide loop + ifs = not turing complete as far as I know
20:37:38 <tusho> even with things like infinite nested ifs like ,[.,
20:37:46 <ais523> tusho: http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/pit/sort.i
20:37:54 <ais523> a single, program-wide loop + ifs
20:38:11 <tusho> can sort.i perform any computation a turing machine can do with unlimited memory?
20:38:22 <ais523> I believe Joris was working on a compiler to compile arbitrary INTERCAL programs into that form
20:38:49 <tusho> ais523: so you think that cyclic brainfuck where [] = if and no infinite [] stacks is TC?
20:38:52 <ais523> I know because e sent me a feature request asking me to fix the way ABSTAIN interacted with array dimensioning
20:38:52 <tusho> i really, really doubt it
20:39:20 <ais523> the INTERCAL version corresponds to nested []
20:39:31 <ais523> but there must be some limit to the nesting
20:39:35 <ais523> and all of them are ifs
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20:39:39 <ais523> with a loop surrounding
20:39:48 <ais523> you'll get some idea of how it works
20:39:57 <tusho> ais523: I don't know INTERCAL.
20:40:03 <oerjan> tusho: it's rather trivial to rewrite a finite state machine as a single loop + ifs. this gives you the core of a turing machine.
20:40:18 <tusho> but it's the non-core bit thats hard...
20:40:38 <ais523> tusho: I think you can do it using variables to hold the location in the program
20:40:42 <oerjan> no it is not the rest is just the infinite tape
20:41:01 <ais523> say you have a BF tape with every other cell empty
20:41:10 <tusho> Well, it's easy to simulate this language with regular BF...
20:41:14 <ais523> you can use the distance from the pointer to the "empty" cell set to 1
20:41:21 <ais523> to record where in the program you are
20:41:27 <tusho> you'd need to copy
20:41:45 <tusho> if anyone can write a bf interp where [] is forbidden, {} is if, and the program is cyclic...be my guest
20:41:47 <tusho> I would love to see it
20:41:59 <tusho> in the modified language
20:42:00 <ais523> bf to that language compiler?
20:42:11 <ais523> or just compile across a BF interp in BF
20:42:18 <ais523> hmm.. dbfi is BF in BF, is it?
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20:42:44 <tusho> bf -> language compiler
20:42:47 <tusho> or a program written in that language
20:42:49 <tusho> that interprets bf
20:43:29 <ais523> the case statement structure I'm inventing for gccbf never loops
20:43:45 <ais523> so you just do the program as a case statement in a loop
20:43:56 <ais523> or nested case statements if you have more than 256 commands
20:44:24 <oc2k1> the only disadvantage is that looping have to be emulated by running the full program n times
20:45:56 <ais523> oc2k1: not really, my case statement is quite optimised
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20:47:30 <oc2k1> but coding could be very hard, because each recursive if state ment hast to be emulated by non recursive ones
20:47:43 <ais523> we're allowing any number of nested ifs
20:47:50 <ais523> just not whiles apart from around the whole program
20:48:46 <oc2k1> that requires a stack counter ... waste of hard/software
20:49:21 <ais523> just a program counter
20:49:23 <tusho> hardly a waste at all
20:49:26 <tusho> also, ais523 is right
20:49:30 <ais523> it's basically the switch in a loop paradigm
20:49:48 <ais523> which can be used in any language, more or less, to convert the program into ifs surrounded by a loop
20:49:59 <ais523> probably not Malbolge, though
20:50:51 <ais523> PLEASE DO .6<-"&!8$.5'"~'#0$#65535' DO .8<-"?!8$.5'"~'#0$#65535' DO .5<-!6$#0'~"#32767$#1" DO .7<-'V.7$".6~#32768"'~"#0$#65535"
20:50:56 <ais523> I ended up writing that 16 times
20:51:01 <ais523> an unrolled loop to do addition
20:51:17 <ais523> because it was easier and faster than figuring out how to localise the addition loop amongst the rest of the program...
20:51:30 <ais523> ofc (1)DOCOMEFROM".2~.2"~#1WHILE:1<-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1" is shorter
20:51:43 <ais523> but that has a loop in so isn't allowed in the TRY AGAIN paradigm
20:51:56 <tusho> http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/1600/2h6yet5bk6.jpg
20:52:31 <ais523> incidentally, the above is actually a golfed version to get it into the Slashdot sig limits
20:52:32 <tusho> if i explained it to you i'd have to transcript the whole image
20:52:42 <ais523> although I just noticed its possible to save one character
20:52:44 <tusho> and then it wouldn't be as funny :-P
20:52:51 <ais523> ofc (1)DOCOMEFROM!2~.2'~#1WHILE:1<-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1" is shorter
20:53:33 * ais523 is annoyed that tusho doesn't know how to read INTERCAL
20:53:44 <ais523> INTERCAL is one of the easier esolangs to read someone else's program in...
20:54:53 <ais523> someone should add INTERCAL to anagolf
20:55:17 <tusho> golf is dead, long die golf
20:55:32 <ais523> anagolf is still going
20:55:40 <ais523> and codegolf even added a new problem a few months ago
20:55:49 <ais523> which given the speed codegolf goes at is lightning-fast
20:56:43 <tusho> the codegolf stuff is just too difficult
20:56:55 <ais523> just harder than anagold
20:57:03 <ais523> none of the individual programs are hard to right
20:57:11 <ais523> just hard to write golfily
20:57:27 <tusho> I’m going to make the bold promise that we’ll have a new challenge next Friday, but I’ve said that before so we’ll see if it actually happens!
20:57:27 <tusho> Wow, it only seems like 236 yesterdays ago when we added the Tower of Hanoi challenge!
20:57:33 <tusho> ^ codegolf.com in a nutshell
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20:59:30 <tusho> http://www.blue.sky.or.jp/grass/
20:59:38 <tusho> (has english docs scroll down)
21:00:03 <tusho> 2006-2007... how did we not find out about this?!
21:00:51 <ais523> I remember it from somewhere
21:01:06 <ais523> almost certainly there
21:01:14 <tusho> ah: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Grass
21:01:23 <tusho> it looks interesting
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21:04:00 <ais523> beh... Perl needs zip as an operator
21:05:13 <tusho> ok, not as easy as i was thinking
21:05:15 <tusho> because perl sucks
21:05:58 <ais523> that sierpinsky carpet anagolf challenge is the first time I've seen an anagolf challenge and thought "hmm, that would be easy in Matlab"
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21:12:18 <oc2k1> That machine would have a problem: I't impossible to init the memory, but if the memory is et to valid values it may work
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21:16:23 <tusho> what would you guys call a name vs human readable name
21:16:34 <tusho> name='FooBarBAZINATOR!', ???='foobarbazinator'
21:16:43 <tusho> name='Oh Em Gee', ???='oh_em_gee'
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21:17:28 <tusho> i was thinking 'id'
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21:20:52 <oerjan> tusho: also known as ... identifier
21:21:34 <oerjan> are you taking things seriously again?
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21:25:41 <ais523_> my Internet connection is malfunctioning badly...
21:26:08 <ais523_> tusho: did you get my email? I sent you one to see if my email was working
21:26:28 <ais523_> obviously this connection works
21:26:40 <oerjan> time dilation is a bitch
21:26:43 <ais523_> tusho: my laptop's connecting to the router fine
21:26:49 <ais523_> but the router itself seems to have dropped off the internet
21:26:51 <tusho> ais523_: no email from you
21:27:02 <tusho> anyway, are you on a different computer then?
21:27:48 <ais523_> this is a Windows computer
21:28:07 <ais523_> it wouldn't even work on "FrontMotion Firefox", whatever that is
21:28:15 <ais523_> although Help|About says it's Mozilla Firefox
21:28:42 <tusho> http://www.frontmotion.com/Firefox/fmfirefox.htm
21:28:46 <tusho> seems to be for mass deployment
21:29:51 <ais523_> tusho: I sent you another email, or tried ti
21:30:44 <tusho> "let's go pen" -- you
21:30:45 <ais523_> well, obviously this works
21:30:51 <ais523_> tusho: reference to the Fight Arena
21:30:56 <ais523_> that was before my connection went mad
21:33:43 <ais523_> also, I can't leave this room
21:33:49 <ais523_> at least, not if I want to be able to get back in again
21:33:56 <ais523_> they announced that they fixed the door
21:34:03 <ais523_> and of course at that moment it stopped working altogether
21:34:09 <ais523_> luckily there were some people in the room at the time
21:34:15 <ais523_> and it opens from the inside
21:34:28 <ais523_> so once I leave the room there'll be nobody here, and no way to get back in
21:35:35 <ais523_> also, obviously there can't be such a thing as a Web-based ssh client
21:36:38 * oerjan recalls nvg had one at one point
21:36:50 <ais523_> wouldn't be very secure...
21:36:52 <oerjan> only for connecting to nvg though
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21:38:11 <oerjan> you can only connect to http ports?
21:38:25 <ais523_> my main laptop connects to the router but not beyond that
21:38:36 <ais523_> at least, it can't do DNS queries
21:38:45 <ais523_> and even if I enter IPs the data seems to go to /dev/null
21:39:11 <ais523_> this computer can connect to the Web, but not to the UNIX system I sometimes use here
21:39:11 <oklopod> they taught us what /dev/null is today at the university.
21:39:21 <ais523_> and it has no useful programs on for Internet stuff other than ping
21:39:26 <ais523_> also I can't install software on it
21:40:10 <ais523_> hmm... this thing has telnet on
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21:41:03 <ais523_> tusho: could you set up telnet on eso-std.org, or is that too insecure, do you think?
21:41:17 <tusho> you'd be sending your pwd in the plain...
21:41:20 * oerjan recalls nvg disabled telnet years ago
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21:41:43 <tusho> Telnet became obsolete in 1995. :-P
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21:42:17 <tusho> Windows was obsolete before it came out.
21:42:24 <ais523_> hmm... I think I will risk leaving this room
21:42:33 <ais523_> I know, I'll go to a completely separate lab that's open until midnight
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21:43:06 <tusho> Windows was obsolete before it came out: Apple Lisa (then Macintosh)
21:43:13 <tusho> but I doubt they'd be too nice as a desktop OS
21:43:19 <tusho> x11 is painful enough today...
21:43:34 <tusho> er, by other unices i mean non-linux ones
21:43:37 <tusho> due to the lack of linux then
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21:48:15 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | (9:09:13 PM) zmnszctzs: i dont think it runs out of possibilities it has a mapping to train maybe you see the fragments will need to perfect that is the sentence.
21:51:53 <oklopod> zmnszctzs, that was one helluva nick
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21:52:55 <oklopod> i'm gonna fuck off now, if you know what i mean (you don't, btw.) ->
21:54:38 <fungot> fizzie: the whole point of the at command: telling the parser where the pointer ends up
21:54:47 <fizzie> fungot: Right, right, just checking.
21:54:47 <fungot> fizzie: interface and behavior, that is
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22:33:51 <tusho> ais523 is taking his time
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