< 1221523256 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1221523453 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"CommandQ" < 1221525003 0 :Slereah2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1221525010 0 :Slereah2!n=x@ANantes-252-1-52-12.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1221525377 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1221525841 0 :Slereah2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1221526634 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :No route to host < 1221528071 0 :Slereah2!n=x@ANantes-252-1-52-12.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1221529671 0 :Slereah2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gaiz < 1221531392 0 :Corun!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1221531413 0 :Corun!n=Corun@cpc1-rdng19-0-0-cust700.winn.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1221531624 0 :Corun!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1221536739 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | .. < 1221543311 0 :oklobol!n=nnscript@oklopol.yok.utu.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1221544062 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )" < 1221545597 0 :GreaseMonkey!n=gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1221546102 0 :oklobol!n=nnscript@sparkgw.utu.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1221549412 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p664652165.txt < 1221549416 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oklopol < 1221549458 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a sophisticated message passing scheme for java < 1221549492 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^rev !tobtpo < 1221549492 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot! < 1221549493 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Because... um... < 1221549496 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lecturer said there was no direct way to send a message from an object to another, so i had no choice but to prove him wrong < 1221550211 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I almost got 20% off of an assignment for having a vector class which resized when you tried to access something out of bounds... < 1221550264 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The grader apparently thought that a buffer overflow error was appropriate. < 1221550286 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder whether he'd like my message passing < 1221550362 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well holy fuck cannot you serialize a java object into a string < 1221550455 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't you just love Java? < 1221550639 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not right now. but sometimes i don't hate it < 1221550654 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, sure you can serialize objects? < 1221550662 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but only into files :) < 1221550672 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course i could write and then read < 1221550677 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh? Just use an ObjectOutputStream writing to a ByteArrayOutputStream. < 1221550683 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a bad idea < 1221550703 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know anything about java streams, can you elaborate < 1221550730 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1221550737 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i know how to do it yes < 1221550742 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a bit < 1221550776 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ByteArrayOutputStream b = new ByteArrayOutputStream(); ObjectOutputStream o = new ObjectOutputStream(b); ... o.writeObject(foo); ... byte[] serialized = b.toByteArray(); < 1221550866 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could use the newer and more enterprisey XMLEncoder too, if you swing that way. < 1221550904 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one more thing < 1221550910 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where are these streams? < 1221550914 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :java.lang.io or something? < 1221550919 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or java.io < 1221550920 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :java.io. < 1221550931 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOX. < 1221551319 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1221551329 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i bit-and in java? < 1221551335 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :& seems to require a boolean < 1221551349 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was this one of java's retarded changes from c? < 1221551499 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, no. < 1221551509 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :&& requires a boolean, & should work for integers. < 1221551635 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But both sides need to be integers. < 1221551640 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or booleans.) < 1221551894 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could get a "boolean expected" type of warning out of a&b if one was boolean and the other was integer, since there's no automagical conversion from boolean to the integral types. < 1221551999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1221552000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1221552180 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i got it, but gotta leave for a sec, lecture ended -> < 1221552343 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and mind the sign bits; the normal ">>" sign-extends, so a loop like for(; b != 0; b >>= 1) ...; will never terminate for negative b, one must use "b >>>= 1" (or the >>> operator in a more generic case) for the "sensible" bitshift. For one value of sensible; I guess sign-extending makes some sort of sense too. < 1221552373 0 :oklobol!n=nnscript@sparkgw.utu.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1221552415 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you miss the bitshift comment? < 1221552456 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1221552467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, everyone knows >> is input ;) < 1221552469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs < 1221552509 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I don't like about "Java for bit-mangling" is that everything's signed, even the "byte" type. < 1221552549 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: wanna code the unserialization part for me as well? < 1221552565 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :string -> object < 1221552571 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'm ready after that < 1221552684 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's pretty much the reverse, if you have that same byte[] the serialization gave you. ObjectInputStream in = new ObjectInputStream(new ByteArrayInputStream(serialized)); Object o = in.readObject(); < 1221552910 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks, i guess i could've guessed that < 1221552924 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, i have an error, need to debug a bit < 1221552948 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit! Heh, heh. < 1221553017 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::----------) < 1221553026 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pun was somewhat intended actually < 1221553375 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm < 1221553418 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think this error is in your code, actually < 1221553429 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well prolly not, but at least in how i'm using it. < 1221553468 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No warranty, not even for fitness for a particular purpose. < 1221553516 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heyyy < 1221553520 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1221553536 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not giving the bytestream the object :P < 1221553547 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i'm just reading an uninitialized stream < 1221553567 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That should give you an empty byte[]. < 1221553571 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b.write(theobject) < 1221553572 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1221553582 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah, that's what i got out of it, methinks. < 1221553592 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1221553594 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.write < 1221553599 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.writeObject. < 1221553633 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is possible yo ushould also do an o.flush() before calling b.toByteArray to make sure all the bits are there. < 1221553697 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see what happens < 1221553710 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should work now, but probably doesn't < 1221554259 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1221554260 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :done < 1221554271 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanna see? no? i'll show anyway < 1221554314 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p522143264.txt < 1221554356 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1221554360 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have two threads, a and b < 1221554370 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a sends messages to b by interrupting its sleep < 1221555458 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )" < 1221558339 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you need to be really good at editing dense, obfuscated python < 1221560044 0 :oklobol!n=nnscript@sparkgw.utu.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1221560750 0 :jix!n=jix@paed-gw.schule.bremen.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1221563413 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Jesus loves you" < 1221563506 0 :oklopol!n=nnscript@sparkgw.utu.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1221564613 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1221566274 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6Fr65PFqfk says that Homespring is the best language ever < 1221566768 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1221567683 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1221568685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh and there are some bugs in efunge, stuff mycology doesn't find, and can't find, like 1kq would have crashed with a backtrace "no such function" instead of quitting < 1221568690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixed now < 1221568711 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and I really don't care :-P < 1221568728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, Mycology doesn't test 0k vv btw < 1221568748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very well defined in 98 I guess < 1221568752 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it also doesn't test karsdnieaedianrbsnbtkliawlfktearnsvdiarskidnarkd;qwypgq < 1221568778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh ok < 1221568858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, that would be rather boring, 0ka, hit reflect, push a, run k over edge (undef I bet) and hit q, so it would quit < 1221568865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming that is the whole program < 1221568891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it wouldn't test other parts, since l is only valid in trefunge iirc < 1221568900 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it causes a crash in this obscure befunge interpreter < 1221568903 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!! < 1221568903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which you entered near the middle < 1221568917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hah. well "0k vv" doesn't casuse a crash < 1221568926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but which v will it go down from? < 1221568931 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whose source code is essentially "if input-file contains ktearnsvdiarskid then crash else ccbi input-file" < 1221568944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say the last one < 1221568947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you think? < 1221568950 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1221568969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is 0 k, then it should search past instruction. Well I got a small test in the cfunge test directory for that < 1221569001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how should j across the edge (ie, wrapping) behave < 1221569023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0a5+-j #v'C,a,@ < 1221569024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : >'W,a,@ < 1221569027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the whole program < 1221569053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge prints C, efunge gets an infinite loop < 1221569055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tests ccbi < 1221569070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ccbi also C < 1221569075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but is it well defined? < 1221569088 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's as well defined as # over the edge < 1221569094 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so "somewhat" < 1221569098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1221569106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what do you think it should do then? < 1221569157 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it should hit the @ < 1221569184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, really? as far as I can tell it jumps -15 < 1221569189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so hm < 1221569203 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it kind of depends < 1221569208 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1221569214 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you see the funge-space as an infinite grid < 1221569224 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it should just jump 15 left < 1221569226 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then wrap < 1221569229 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hitting the @ < 1221569242 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternately, you can think that it wraps as soon as it jumps left of the 0 < 1221569272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0a5+-jvvvvvvvvv < 1221569273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 123456789 < 1221569273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : @,a.<<<<<<<<< < 1221569279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ccbi ends up with a 1 < 1221569282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does cfunge < 1221569295 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same way you can think of # over the edge as either jumping over one of the infinite spaces, then wrapping, or jumping+wrapping < 1221569313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1221569333 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because consider < 1221569341 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you indent all three lines there by 20 spaces? < 1221569354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that would change this program definitely < 1221569364 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, and IMHO it shouldn't probably < 1221569372 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because spaces are ethereal < 1221569387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you mean jump across edge should hit opposite edge? always? < 1221569399 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I think that makes most sense as a whole < 1221569406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure spaces are etheral < 1221569412 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's probably what was intended < 1221569414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't hold true for # and j < 1221569425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they treat spaces as existing cells < 1221569431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in non-wrapping case < 1221569432 0 :tusho!n=tusho@91.105.85.60 JOIN :#esoteric < 1221569433 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1221569438 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why not in the wrapping case as well < 1221569445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm true < 1221569464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well # in both cfunge and efunge do hit opposite edge < 1221569525 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@HSI-KBW-091-089-028-216.hsi2.kabelbw.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1221569537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, except what j actually do (in both) is: store current delta, multiply delta by distance, call routine that moves ip forward once, restore delta < 1221569558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while # is just "call routine moving forward once" < 1221569590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and then another call at end of main loop) < 1221569667 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lol wut. Some people tried "CONNECT 6667 HTTP/1.0" on my server last night < 1221569670 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[9.9 CONNECT < 1221569671 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This specification reserves the method name CONNECT for use with a proxy that can dynamically switch to being a tunnel (e.g. SSL tunneling [44]). ] < 1221569672 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol wut x_x < 1221569683 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just a private server testing a thing i'm writing. < 1221569688 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No link published or anything < 1221569699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, random scans over ip blocks? < 1221569707 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many IRC servers do open proxy tests like that also. < 1221569716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that too < 1221569717 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1221569723 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems very likely. < 1221569729 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is from 12:50, I just noticed :P < 1221569743 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also a POST / by one of them, presumably trying to nph-proxy test < 1221569749 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :92.62.43.77 - - [16/Sep/2008:12:55:34] "CONNECT 6667 HTTP/1.0" 404 1174 "" "" < 1221569753 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can give up now. < 1221569753 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Honest. < 1221569996 0 :Corun!n=Corun@cpc1-rdng19-0-0-cust700.winn.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1221572541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, a whois on that ip says "descr: Underworld IRC services Trondheim, Norway" < 1221572547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no clue what network that is < 1221572549 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll be quakenet, then. < 1221572555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1221573069 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1221573338 0 :Slereah_!n=x@ANantes-252-1-52-12.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1221573338 0 :Slereah2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1221574931 0 :oklobol!n=nnscript@oklopol.yok.utu.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1221575273 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1221575468 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION knows what Trondheim, Norway is < 1221577475 0 :Corun!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1221577748 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Why are videos worse than text? I have to consume them at the pace and in the order dictated by the producer. I cannot skim them. They take orders of magnitude more bandwidth. I cannot search for a word or phrase. I am unable to quote from them without transcribing by hand. I cannot easily page around to see the general shape, or pick out an interesting paragraph to read, or send a part to somebody else. They are not indexed properly by Google.] < 1221577761 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it is a video of a keynote presentation thing that is amusing) < 1221577764 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he must hate real life < 1221577809 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@HSI-KBW-091-089-028-216.hsi2.kabelbw.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1221577927 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who doesn't < 1221578054 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1221578096 0 :oklobol!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oklopol < 1221578968 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-080-228-179-145.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1221579758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow... this is crazy, there is a log4sh... http://log4sh.sourceforge.net/ < 1221579802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there also seems to be a unit testing framework for shellscripts based on junit?... crazy... http://code.google.com/p/shunit2/wiki/ProjectInfo < 1221579939 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | it's a full language that can express anything english or anything else can < 1221580037 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot: talking about oko? < 1221580038 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: C = nice. C++ = horrible but usable bastardization of C. Java = horrible, weak, insulting bastardization of C++. < 1221580159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think optbot is right there < 1221580160 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ``ci`ci < 1221580167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though not sure C++ is that usable < 1221580174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bastardization certainly < 1221580284 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot: have you gone all loopy? < 1221580285 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: How many of those nicks are registered? < 1221580293 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot: both of them < 1221580293 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I might do h[0][0][0][0] by mistake (extra "[0]") and not know about it until my program crashes < 1221580333 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot: i don't know if that's a legal nick < 1221580333 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: :P < 1221580469 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :h[0][0][0][0] < 1221580477 0 :h[0][0][0][0]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you know, it was < 1221580483 0 :h[0][0][0][0]!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oerjan < 1221580809 0 :Corun!n=Corun@cpc1-rdng19-0-0-cust700.winn.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1221580968 0 :Corun!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1221581011 0 :Corun!n=Corun@cpc1-rdng19-0-0-cust700.winn.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1221581602 0 :ais523!n=ais523@sm01-fap04.bham.ac.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1221581602 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1221581689 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1221581907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hi < 1221581912 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1221581927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, did you register that h[0][0][0][0] nick? < 1221581947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders nicks like argv[0] < 1221581949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be valid < 1221581957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no I won't care of someone registers it < 1221581961 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: don't square brackets not count as part of the nick? < 1221581966 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so argv[0] would actually just be registering argv < 1221581971 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like ais523|busy is equivalent to ais523 < 1221581971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* oerjan is now known as h[0][0][0][0] < 1221581972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : would you know, it was < 1221581972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* h[0][0][0][0] is now known as oerjan < 1221581981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wtf are you talking about? < 1221581990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523|busy is not equivalent to ais523 < 1221581993 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: only part of an IRC nick is considered for uniqueness < 1221581994 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes it is < 1221581996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to any ircd < 1221582011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that was some idea freenode used to have iirc, don't think they ever implemented it < 1221582012 0 :Corun!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1221582020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but depending on that would be unportable < 1221582031 0 :ais523_|test!n=ais523@sm01-fap04.bham.ac.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1221582031 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523_|test < 1221582034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the original IRC RFC | is upper case of [ iirc < 1221582039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, that was scripted < 1221582041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, stop that < 1221582046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi tusho < 1221582048 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: why should i < 1221582052 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 was gonna script it one time < 1221582054 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but decided not to < 1221582055 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, { is uppercase of [ < 1221582064 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it was too much work < 1221582064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah yes, that was it < 1221582073 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no, i'm going to leave that script there < 1221582078 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, ais523 found a way to beat it today < 1221582078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway you could remove the _ and it would work, at least on every ircd I know < 1221582093 0 :ais523_|test!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523|test < 1221582098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see? < 1221582105 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, I was testing with nickserv < 1221582113 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was nickserv that enforced that rule not the ircd < 1221582116 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but apparently it doesn't either < 1221582124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it is no rule < 1221582134 0 :ais523|test!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1221582136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rule only existed in the head of some freenode oper at some time < 1221582141 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1221582143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was never implemented < 1221582174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even if it was implemented it wouldn't be standard < 1221583438 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that oper who died, i seem to vaguely recall < 1221583463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, lilo, possible < 1221583579 0 :Slereah2!n=x@ANantes-252-1-24-38.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1221583600 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: lilo is the founder < 1221583607 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no i split an infinite. and i promised to never ever in my life do such a wicked thing < 1221583615 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though tbh i can't remember him doing much more than begging for money. < 1221583622 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::\ < 1221583639 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone's got to do that < 1221583641 0 :Slereah2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan : Was it an infinite or just a half infinite? < 1221583684 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION would like Slereah2 to please pretty please with sugar on top tell him what a half infinitive ... oh wait < 1221583707 0 :Slereah2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1221583732 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually x = 2*x for all infinite cardinalities < 1221583803 0 :Slereah2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But only for cardinalities :o < 1221583805 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ordinalities too but that is about ordinal multiplication being strange and non-commutative) < 1221583809 0 :Slereah2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, also for some other infinites < 1221583816 0 :Slereah2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the extended real line < 1221583830 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1221583840 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, limit ordinals < 1221583892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, s/is/was/ in the line sent directly after Slereah2 joined < 1221583916 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, he didn't suddenly retroactively not found it < 1221583918 0 :Slereah2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't omega =/= 2*omega? < 1221583921 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when he died < 1221583931 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, is. in sense that Kim Il Sung is the president of North Korea < 1221583942 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which i think is true) < 1221583956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, huh, well true, but it sounds weird English < 1221583962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me < 1221583965 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that is true < 1221583970 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1221583972 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah2: no, omega = 2*omega < 1221583977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, I even suspect the usual way would be using "was" there < 1221583983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even in English < 1221583985 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the right side is 2+2+2+... < 1221583995 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be, but i can opt for crazy correctness occasionally, can't I? < 1221584022 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while omega+omega = omega*2, the other way < 1221584129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is inf / 2? I don't mean mathematically (where it is inf), but rather in IEEE floating point format < 1221584136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it NaN or inf? < 1221584193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, sure you can < 1221584231 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :17:56 =oerjan> > (isIEEE 2.0, let x = 1/0 in x/2) < 1221584231 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :17:56 =lambdabot> (True,Infinity) < 1221584271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1221584281 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that first was just to confirm lambdabot/ghc uses IEEE) < 1221584288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1221584306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let x = 1/0 in x/2 <-- that syntax makes no sense to me < 1221584317 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's < 1221584319 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's haskell < 1221584320 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x/2 where x = 1/0 < 1221584321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is wrong with (1/0)/2 < 1221584325 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nothing < 1221584329 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan could have done it < 1221584333 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess he wanted a variable that meant infinity < 1221584334 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be clearer < 1221584336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1221584337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1221584388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I bet mathematicians, not programmers, designed Haskell....) < 1221584393 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1221584397 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: almost certainly, and why not? < 1221584399 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very close to mathematics < 1221584404 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet very usable for everyday tasks < 1221584418 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the programmers appeared after the mathematicians got started < 1221584421 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and helped tweak it so it's useful < 1221584429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do see that of course.. Just look at darcs or such < 1221584433 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while the mathematicians kept it mathematically pure < 1221584433 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1221584446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however that doesn't mean I must like it < 1221584459 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't. < 1221584462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can think a language does the job it has been made for, without liking it < 1221584471 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's nothing wrong with a language being designed by mathematicians < 1221584481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example COBOL arguably *does* the job it was made for, yet you can't really like it I bet < 1221584524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I didn't say there was anything wrong with mathematicians making a language < 1221584536 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"-> bus" < 1221584552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is just that I find haskell confusing as a programming language < 1221584566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to have a lot of "syntactic sugar" < 1221584576 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1221584579 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has quite minimal syntax < 1221584580 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just flexible < 1221584583 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in its syntax < 1221584604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: list comprehensions, two different ways to write case, changing things from prefix to infix at will? < 1221584610 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's syntactic sugar < 1221584612 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the last one is not syntactical sugar < 1221584613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1221584616 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is extensible syntax < 1221584622 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: yes it is, you can write everything prefix in theory < 1221584623 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i didn't deny that there was sugar < 1221584625 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course there is < 1221584631 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: syntax != syntactical sugar < 1221584636 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has infix syntax, it just so happens that it's extensible infix < 1221584642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what did you mean with the last one? < 1221584646 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, the first two are valid < 1221584649 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you can define infix operators < 1221584655 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mod 2 3 is equivalent to 2 `mod` 3 in Haskell < 1221584660 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that, yes < 1221584661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1221584662 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can infixise anything that takes two args like that < 1221584670 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, you can infixise anything < 1221584673 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do it the other way too: 2 + 3 is equivalent to (+) 2 3 < 1221584677 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no such thing as two arguments < 1221584683 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: yes, I know < 1221584686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... syntactical sugar I'd say < 1221584688 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mod :: Integer -> (Integer -> Integer) -- generalizing the type signature here < 1221584695 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's more confusing than useful if you aren't using it like it's taking two args < 1221584702 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: true < 1221584715 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: of course haskell has syntactical sugar: so does C < 1221584719 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesn't have huge excesses of it < 1221584721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1221584726 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :putting something that's normally a unary operator to infix, for instance, is just crazy < 1221584729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just noted haskell seems to have a lot of it < 1221584732 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the syntax of haskell isn't really all that complex, save for the alignment-syntax thing < 1221584779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp seems to be one of the languages with *least* syntactical sugar, though at least some lisp variants got some of it, like the (foo 'quoted string) thing I seen in at least elisp < 1221584792 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :' is not quoted string < 1221584801 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'x is (quote x), i.e. return x without evaluating it < 1221584801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, what was the exact difference then? < 1221584803 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can do '(1 2 3) < 1221584808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1221584808 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which evaluates to (1 2 3) < 1221584815 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of calling 1 with the arguments (2 3) and balking < 1221584819 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can't call a number... < 1221584831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still I'd say lisp got one of the purest syntax out there < 1221584838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for non-esolangs < 1221584841 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1221584869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could argue brainfuck got even less syntactical sugar, at least if you remove - ;) < 1221584899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then there is the turing tarpit funge variant Deewiant and me discussed a while back < 1221584911 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a while back = like 2-3 days < 1221584913 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1221584913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think we got down to something like 6 existing commands < 1221584919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, yes probably < 1221584927 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it was 5 for Befunge, 6 for Unefunge < 1221584934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1221584971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]-1y_ for befunge right? < 1221585010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the addition of x for unefunge < 1221585023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, or? < 1221585024 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what's the y for? < 1221585025 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1221585035 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what do these do: ]y_ < 1221585035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it's secondary function, stack pick < 1221585048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :] is turn right < 1221585048 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ah, how are you going to know how much it would push anyway? < 1221585059 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ goes left or right according to if TOS is 0 < 1221585060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well you could check using y ;P < 1221585063 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and y is crazy < 1221585080 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1221585086 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, I reckon y should push the number of entries y pushes as the top entry of the resulting stack < 1221585090 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think a nicer command set is *-1x? (same functionality, just different names) < 1221585099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, nah, not in specs :P < 1221585102 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. the programs would look nicer using those characters < 1221585109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, err you need _ too < 1221585113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait hm < 1221585115 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: _ is ? < 1221585121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, horizontal if < 1221585125 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...... < 1221585128 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'_' is '?' < 1221585132 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :command set = *-1x? < 1221585133 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: _] were combined to w < 1221585139 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: you're suggesting redefining all the chars in Befunge for aesthetics? < 1221585141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, no ? is random direction < 1221585141 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: what does w do? < 1221585146 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: SHUT UP < 1221585149 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I MEANT IN MY REBOUND VERSION < 1221585152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ah right < 1221585153 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god < 1221585162 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: maybe you could use x < 1221585164 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: for the tarpit, yes < 1221585165 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of _] < 1221585166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so -1wy < 1221585166 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: pops two cells and turns left if <, right if >, otherwise goes straight < 1221585168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would work < 1221585168 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for tarpitting < 1221585170 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tons of ]s around the place would be ugly < 1221585174 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: ah < 1221585182 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then my charset is -1*x < 1221585185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but for unefunge you need _-1yx then < 1221585194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, err * is multiply < 1221585195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no need < 1221585198 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ...................................... < 1221585199 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yep < 1221585204 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I was rebinding them to look better when tarpitted. < 1221585218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, redefining the letters were not allowed in the original discussion < 1221585220 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- and 1 stay the same, w gets renamed to *, y gets renamed to x < 1221585222 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i don't care. < 1221585222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor will we do it here < 1221585228 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: tusho's inventing his own fungeoid in which all the commands are the same as Befunge but mapped to different characters < 1221585230 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will do it here, because I like the look better < 1221585233 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, no < 1221585235 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same as the tarpit < 1221585239 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of -1wy < 1221585239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah right, well not really interesting < 1221585242 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with w renamed to * < 1221585244 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and y renamed to x < 1221585251 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same semantics, just looks prettier. < 1221585258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, also y got the befunge-98 semantics < 1221585260 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Deewiant: you also need space and newline < 1221585271 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... could it work without space? < 1221585272 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they were seen as implicit < 1221585278 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1221585283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well space yes, but newline is not part of the command set < 1221585292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no newlines in funge space after loading a file < 1221585293 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's worth thinking about, though, due to the existence of 2L/1L < 1221585302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just increment y and reset x to 0 < 1221585305 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no but they matter to the file loader so they need to be specced < 1221585310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, right < 1221585329 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally when discussing tarpits I go by characters in the source, not by characters in the internal representation < 1221585361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well I'd argue you could store it as an array in C and then link the interpreter to that C file < 1221585368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1221585376 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that takes a lot more characters < 1221585379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the actual source representation could vary in other words < 1221585391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it is the actual program representation we are discussing < 1221585395 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's really the language + representation combination that's the tarpit IMO < 1221585397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not it's carrier format < 1221585437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you could encode it in some other charset, would it not be the same *program*? < 1221585463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you could define "wrap around at col 80, infinite line count" < 1221585465 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the same program < 1221585469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you wouldn't need \n < 1221585477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just spaces to fill each line < 1221585486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all stored on one line < 1221585487 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's different for tarpit purposes if you're trying to golf the number of characters in the language < 1221585511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I golf the number of commands, not the source representation < 1221585525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I compressed it with deflate, wouldn't that add more symbols? < 1221585536 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: see 1L and NULL, "number of commands" can be pretty hard to pin down on occasion < 1221585541 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and Whirl for that matter < 1221585545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1L is? < 1221585550 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 1l is < 1221585554 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/1L < 1221585558 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's a 2D language with only two commands, one of which is represented by space < 1221585558 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shocking, I know < 1221585573 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's Turing-complete < 1221585585 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the commands do varies according to which way the IP's going < 1221585600 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it has 8 commands really, actually 7 as two of them are the same < 1221585606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm ok, well if you dump the memory it is stored in, as a binary tree representing funge space, would it not be the same program? < 1221585617 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, but different representation of it < 1221585618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is just the representation that differs < 1221585628 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we're agreeing on this < 1221585645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm golfing the actual language, not the representation < 1221585663 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that golfing an actual language for command count can be hard to define < 1221585683 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many commands does Whirl have, for instance? What about NULL? Does 1L have 1, 2, or 8 commands? < 1221585712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could declare "how the implementation decides to continue loading the rest of the source at a different funge row is implementation defined" < 1221585720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there you are < 1221585728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could use newline, or whatever < 1221585741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could even say that the source representation format is implementation defined < 1221585759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if it read from an infinite paper sheet? < 1221585781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there wouldn't be any LF in the source anywhere < 1221585784 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: *it's < 1221585796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet you would surely argue that \n should be a part of the charset of the language? < 1221585896 0 :Corun!n=Corun@cpc1-rdng19-0-0-cust700.winn.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1221585896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ^ < 1221585949 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm talking here specifically about the notion of creating something with the minimum possible number of commands < 1221585957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so am I < 1221585959 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the representation of the language is not important for the language, usually < 1221585968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, exactly < 1221585976 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in my opinion taking a particular representation+language combination is the best thing to minimize command count over < 1221585980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is why \n is *not* part of the commands in the language < 1221585984 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that way it is at least easy to define < 1221585988 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no, \n isn't a command < 1221586011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus only space and w1-y are needed < 1221586012 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but IMO it is worth counting when comparing 2D langs with 1D langs < 1221586018 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arguably EOF is relevant too < 1221586027 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance Iota doesn't need EOF, whereas brainfuck does < 1221586032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, EOF is never on disk < 1221586034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all < 1221586054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is just a state that makes feof() return true < 1221586060 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is, just not written directly on disk, it's implicit from the filesize, which is written on the disk < 1221586086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well then the interpreter will read the source from an infinite sheet of paper, starting in the upper left corner < 1221586089 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it's transmitted as something special if you're reading your program from a network stream < 1221586098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will have infinite many scanning heads < 1221586106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus reading infinitely many lines at once < 1221586111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, there is no \n in there < 1221586136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you could just say that the representation is implementation defined < 1221586148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, which http://esolangs.org/wiki/1L#1L_a105 seems to do < 1221586166 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree with ais523. < 1221586174 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\n is part of the language. < 1221586178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not < 1221586179 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EOF isn't, if the fungespace is infinite < 1221586180 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which it is < 1221586192 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's 1-wy < 1221586192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the *representation is implementation defined* < 1221586198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, can't you read < 1221586200 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, you are wrong in this case. < 1221586202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1221586207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, if it read it from a paper < 1221586211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a 2D grid on paper < 1221586216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would there be any \n then? < 1221586217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me < 1221586218 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: then is symbolic < 1221586223 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still involves multiple lines < 1221586228 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus is part of the language < 1221586229 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: suppose I have a programming language that has no commands, what it does is implementation-defined to be whatever the user wants it to do < 1221586232 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this cheating or nopt? < 1221586246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, hardly, it could have multiple scanner head one for each line < 1221586256 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I said SYMBOLIC < 1221586263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1221586264 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quoth you: AnMaster, can't you read < 1221586266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just make it like this then < 1221586290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite line count, no \n is allowed in source, a new funge row will begin at each time it hits 80 chars in the current row < 1221586305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus after 80 symbols it will continue reading the rest of the source in a new line < 1221586305 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you have a different language < 1221586311 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the other one, you could have infinitely long horizontal fungespace < 1221586317 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this one you can only have 80 characters < 1221586325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, and \n is of course still part of the language? < 1221586337 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it is irrelevant. it is a different language < 1221586342 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and therefore your variation is incorrect < 1221586357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the \n is a part of that language. It is symbolic for tusho is wrong < 1221586383 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, you are making no fucking sense. < 1221586393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory each line in the original language could be stored in parallel < 1221586399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and read in parallel < 1221586400 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are thinking of the wrong definition of symbolic. < 1221586422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, yes of course, but you are thinking of the wrong definition of newline < 1221586431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so hardly makes a difference < 1221586451 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no. you are wrong. < 1221586452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: suppose I have a programming language that has no commands, what it does is implementation-defined to be whatever the user wants it to do < 1221586453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Is this cheating or nopt? < 1221586455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it isn't < 1221586461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is perfectly esoteric and valid < 1221586474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though probably not implementable < 1221586476 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I would consider it cheating < 1221586482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are lots of non-implementable esolangs < 1221586482 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely chating < 1221586484 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cheating < 1221586485 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a tarpit language competition < 1221586488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :banana scheme < 1221586492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example < 1221586498 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in your golfing competition i submit ais523's language that he just talked about < 1221586500 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what about Wait? That's Turing-complete, and has no source file as the input < 1221586503 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can go home now < 1221586507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, valid of course < 1221586511 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wait < 1221586512 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wait isn't a language < 1221586524 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: it's a programming... thing < 1221586526 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait is just a program that happens to run langauges < 1221586528 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*language < 1221586528 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1221586531 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arguably not a language as it doesn't take source code < 1221586537 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :saying it is turing-complete is nonsense < 1221586545 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like saying, oh, photoshop is turing complete < 1221586546 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's technically speaking usable for programming, if you're very patient < 1221586548 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it uses embedded language X < 1221586552 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in its internal workings < 1221586554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1221586557 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: would you say Excel is Turing-complete? < 1221586560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd argue Wait is valid < 1221586563 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't a programming language either < 1221586568 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: excel is not turing complete, excel's macro language is turing complete < 1221586573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a valid implementation of ais523's language < 1221586581 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/bin/perl is not turing complete, Perl is turing complete < 1221586587 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I say Excel itself is Turing-complete, as you can give it input to cause it to act in arbitrary ways < 1221586589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it gets the users intentions from the current time < 1221586591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus valid < 1221586595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well done ais523 :) < 1221586609 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well I didn't invent it, presumably it was invented as the result of a similar discussion though < 1221586621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and I'd argue it is perfectly valid < 1221586627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though probably not very usable < 1221586632 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: < 1221586633 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the wait spec < 1221586634 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Each implementation must choose some Turing-complete programming language as < 1221586635 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a "reference language"] < 1221586636 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if wait is TC < 1221586641 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could choose Wait as that language < 1221586648 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously, that would be nonsense < 1221586651 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: but what implementation of Wait! < 1221586653 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as wait isn't a langauge nor is it TC < 1221586656 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd argue that isn't nonsense at all < 1221586659 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does it matter? it conforms to the wait spec < 1221586662 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a turtles all the way down situation < 1221586664 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore it is a wait interpreter < 1221586671 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seperate wait interps != seperate wait languages < 1221586672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed < 1221586676 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait based on Wait based on brainfuck is entirely TC < 1221586682 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it isn't < 1221586683 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait based on brainfuck < 1221586684 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's < 1221586689 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a wait interpreter using brainfuck as the language < 1221586692 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's implementation defined < 1221586694 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait itself is a language < 1221586696 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a TC language < 1221586702 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: arguably the definition of Wait on the wiki is a template for creating langs < 1221586703 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language it uses internally is just impl-defined < 1221586710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I agree with ais523 < 1221586711 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't leave all the details specified < 1221586722 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i am arguing that wait isn't a language by absurdity < 1221586735 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1221586736 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'The wait Programming Language Specification.' < 1221586740 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few lines before the line in question < 1221586744 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes, 'a wait interpreter' is unambiguous < 1221586754 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: yes, just no valid Wait program is portable < 1221586759 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite there only being one program! < 1221586759 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, 'a wait interpreter with wait as the inner interpreter' < 1221586763 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is surely not TC < 1221586776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, depends on what the inter interpreter use < 1221586779 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: yes it is, it depends on what the interpreter inside that is though to how you give it input < 1221586782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inner* < 1221586794 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my conclusion: Wait is not a language < 1221586794 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's TC, it's just there's no way to find out how, other than looking at the source or guessing < 1221586797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this turns out as "turtles all the way down" < 1221586799 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not a template for languages < 1221586801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, as ais523 said < 1221586803 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is just a rough specification for a program < 1221586812 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that program happens to run a TC language as part of its workings < 1221586815 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, turtles all the way down is entirely possible and mathematically self-consistent, just a bit hard to implement < 1221586821 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think about a game that has its AI coded in python < 1221586824 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the game turing complete? < 1221586825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed < 1221586828 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, then wait is not TC either < 1221586834 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: yes if there's some way to get it to act in a TC way < 1221586837 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for Wait there is < 1221586841 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some games there aren't < 1221586850 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turingcompleteness is a property of languages < 1221586856 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not other things < 1221586857 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like programs < 1221586858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, can't you read: also, turtles all the way down is entirely possible and mathematically self-consistent, just a bit hard to implement < 1221586859 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: it's a property of things in general too < 1221586863 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, a game with its AI in python is not TC < 1221586865 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, wait is not TC < 1221586883 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i did read that, but I've gone on to another point < 1221586884 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you read? < 1221586889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have wait of wait of wait of wait of wait... < 1221586910 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: a game with its AI in python may or may not be TC, my guess is usually it won't be but if there's some way to set up the gamestate so that arbitrary TC computations can occur then it is < 1221586911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, you ignore the opponents arguments? bad style IMO < 1221586922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for that matter, I've been wondering about whether Agora is Turing-complete < 1221586923 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you're making no fucking sense < 1221586926 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wasn't even talking about that < 1221586931 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was talking about games with AI being tc < 1221586932 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect probably not as people will ignore programs that are too complex < 1221586944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, which got nothing to do with wait < 1221586949 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes it has < 1221586955 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you address a completely different point to the one I am making? bad style IMO < 1221586957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes it can be TC < 1221586959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as ais523 said < 1221586970 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: tusho is working off a different definition of "Turing-complete" to us I think, in which Wait is trivially non-TC < 1221586975 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree with his definition, though < 1221586980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, same < 1221587225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I implemented a game of life inside a scriptable (closed source) RPG game engine for mac os 9 a few years ago. It could have been tc, almost. Only two issues that prevented that was due to implementation: limited runtime for scripts (to prevent lockup) and limited map size (for similiar reasons), Though it should have been possible to chain together several scripts, and several maps to do it. Didn't t < 1221587225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ry though < 1221587243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd argue without those two limitations it would have been TC < 1221587254 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's the sort of programming I like doing too < 1221587256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those limitations were due to implementation < 1221587286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the scripting language was horrible C-like + god knows what mess < 1221587293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :had hints of pascal too < 1221587306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :used begin end and {} depending on *type* of block < 1221587327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in begin end for functions but {} for blocks inside functions < 1221587337 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1221587350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it didn't have functions, it had numerical event handlers < 1221587353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like: < 1221587360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mapevent 18; < 1221587361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :begin < 1221587364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :code here... < 1221587365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :end < 1221587374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could call other map events though iirc < 1221587379 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's pretty much functions < 1221587383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :limited to 99 per script < 1221587416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though there were no *documented* limit on the size of the event handlers < 1221587429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no I don't remember the name of that game engine < 1221587444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I implemented game of life by changing floor tiles < 1221587449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :between light and dark ones < 1221587461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could read floor tile ids too < 1221587491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a way for the PC (not computer, character) in the game to set floor tiles to set initial state < 1221587500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then pull a lever to advance it one generation < 1221587504 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: heh, I know what PC means in that context.. < 1221587518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : well didn't know if that was the case < 1221587537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway yes I was limited in size of board because of runtime of script < 1221587569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have done more by processing it in several sections (one lever per section) < 1221587570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1221587622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd argue that the need for user input there (pull levers) is no different than a computer needing electricity to advance state in case anyone try to say that makes it no tc or something < 1221587623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1221587632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non* < 1221587689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have something script (hah) those input moves, or you could power a computer using one of those bicycle thingies < 1221587743 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: like Wait but based on pedalling speed? < 1221587756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, nah? < 1221587765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like the power used to advance state < 1221587779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't affect the result if you did it slower < 1221587785 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1221587814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that make me wonder, you could script cut scenes, and move the PC, and you could add scripts that activated when you stepped on a tile < 1221587827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't know if cut scene disabled those "step on" scripts < 1221587838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not that should have been pretty interesting < 1221588331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway arguably this had the potential to be turing complete, but there were some pretty tight *implementation* limits < 1221588347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is just like no actual computer is TC < 1221588360 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, there's a term for that, "bounded-storage machine" < 1221588372 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something that would be TC except there are arbitrary implementation limits < 1221588391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1221588406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was nothing in the scripting language itself that prevented it being TC < 1221589263 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1221589306 0 :Corun!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1221589928 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1221590373 0 :oklobol!n=nnscript@oklopol.yok.utu.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1221590374 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1221591769 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[ < 1221591769 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> FLOSS licenses < 1221591770 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I own my dental products. I think it's gross to license them!]] < 1221591770 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- reddit < 1221593019 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-12-186.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1221593382 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1221593382 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1221594061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, heh < 1221594817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there? < 1221594832 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye < 1221594832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just found out that I couldn't implement the normal behaviour of = in efunge < 1221594837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically impossible < 1221594846 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"normal"? < 1221594850 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: which one's =? System call? < 1221594852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :system() one < 1221594860 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you can implement it how you like < 1221594866 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same with C system, really < 1221594868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes I could evaluate erlang < 1221594869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1221594876 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least Funge requires you to say what you're doing to some extent... < 1221594881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only one is os:cmd() < 1221594885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is silly really < 1221594888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it captures stdout < 1221594890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not stderr < 1221594895 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :system() requires the implementation to act in an implementation-defined manner IIRC < 1221594895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and does not return the exit code < 1221594897 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: o rly? < 1221594901 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there has to be a package doing it peroperly < 1221594904 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*properly < 1221594928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, well there are the erlang:open_port(), which could be used, except it doesn't return exit code < 1221594939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you could use linked in driver, that is a module written in C < 1221594946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhat like python can do < 1221594975 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ask #erlang? < 1221594977 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there has to be something < 1221595012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, already done < 1221595036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use a linked in driver yes < 1221595041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems like only solution < 1221595050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1221595058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will implement my = to evaluate erlang code < 1221595064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not implement it at all < 1221595086 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that puts erlang lower down in my opinion. It's not exactly closed-world like e.g. Squeak so it doesn't really have an excuse. < 1221595097 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't? < 1221595102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, it isn't? < 1221595108 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not as much as Squeak, I don't think. < 1221595123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :squeak is a smalltalk isn't it? < 1221595134 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1221595141 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has its own windowing & gui library < 1221595142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ok, not as much as that then < 1221595143 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :runs in one big window < 1221595153 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only outside thing it'll touch is networking and the filesystem < 1221595155 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it desperately avoids the latter < 1221595171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, oh well erlang got it's own library for GUI, It use tk, yet erlang manage fine if no TCL is installed < 1221595174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very odd < 1221595180 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh, I don't mean its own GUI library < 1221595183 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it literally has one big window < 1221595186 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and draws its own fonts < 1221595186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah that < 1221595189 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and frames < 1221595192 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and cursors < 1221595194 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just uses SDL < 1221595197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, no outside world interaction? < 1221595203 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: some, but it's avoided < 1221595210 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can access the filesystem and the network and such < 1221595210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1221595214 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but generally you don't < 1221595229 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(most resources that you'd put in files go in the class hierarchy which is how it's designed) < 1221595231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about other stuff? like calling external programs? < 1221595248 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it is also image-based (it's a whole system that you modify directly within itself) < 1221595248 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of code-in-file-and-it's-run < 1221595260 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i've never seen it done but i imagine it's possible if you really really must < 1221595264 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very closed world, but it is very interesting < 1221595269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, so self modifying? < 1221595270 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've played about with stuff and made some little things in it < 1221595272 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like it < 1221595272 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a C++ library with a C API. How the hell do I make a .a out of it which I can link into non-C++ programs without hitting C++-related link errors like "undefined reference to `operator delete[](void*)`"? < 1221595272 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1221595276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, with no ability to go back? < 1221595281 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, it has history < 1221595282 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and such < 1221595299 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the community uses a VCS written in it which operates at the semantic level of smalltalk code < 1221595299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, ah, because with a C program I can just press ctrl-c to reset state < 1221595302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean like that < 1221595304 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of diffs and things < 1221595315 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if it crashes, you open it up and it lets you recover changes from your last save < 1221595328 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: hmm, I think you'd either have to put the c++ library into the .a file, or require your users to link with g++ < 1221595332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what about using extern "C" { } ? < 1221595333 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crashing it isn't extraordinarily hard to do on purpose but hard to do on accident < 1221595336 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on purpose: 'true become: false' < 1221595337 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1221595348 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: or just give -libstdc++ on the command line of gcc < 1221595353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, I see it is not for x86_64 though < 1221595358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well multilib sucks < 1221595359 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: compile it yourself. < 1221595359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1221595365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, it works on x86_64? < 1221595365 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I use ar somehow to add libstdc++ to the .a file? < 1221595366 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: extern "C" operator delete[]? :P < 1221595370 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I dunno. Does it? < 1221595374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, that is hardly a C API < 1221595377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would say it is C++ < 1221595382 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: yes, unpack libstdc++ using ar, then repack them all using ar < 1221595390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sounds horrible < 1221595406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, well it seems gentoo package manager suggests it doesn't < 1221595409 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah, I was saying that using extern "C" is no solution to the problem (he's already using extern "C" since it's a C api) < 1221595423 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because gentoo has completely everything and never misses a certain arch < 1221595424 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nosiree < 1221595435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, no it may not be true < 1221595440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is generally a good indicator < 1221595449 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you should link the c++ library into the .a, since that'll probably give double definition linker errors for anyone compiling C++ programs and linking to the c++ library again < 1221595454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since x86_64 is one of the more popular archs < 1221595455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, ! < 1221595465 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ! < 1221595467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after x86 < 1221595467 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ^ < 1221595468 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ! < 1221595478 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just addressed me 10 seconds ago. < 1221595482 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do not have to do it again after your messages. < 1221595486 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ^ < 1221595500 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: well is there another way? < 1221595522 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that seems to work, thanks < 1221595533 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: yes... < 1221595537 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can build a .so file that links dynamically to the c++ library < 1221595537 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :install libc++ < 1221595537 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1221595537 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever < 1221595541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, that is due to concurrent discussions < 1221595543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1221595543 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm on windows < 1221595559 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, don't do it, please. < 1221595562 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so .so files are out < 1221595563 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's quite irritating < 1221595568 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Due to the bloop noice. < 1221595569 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so you're building a .lib and not a .a? < 1221595569 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*noise < 1221595570 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Cygwin can create .dlls < 1221595581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well SOL < 1221595584 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm not on Cygwin, I'm on plain MinGW. < 1221595592 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: ah, ok < 1221595592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well it doesn't work on x86_64 < 1221595593 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: no, I'm building a .a. < 1221595622 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :essentially the problem was that the configure script wouldn't work on MSYS and I figured it'd be easier to build the thing manually than hack up the script < 1221595625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that was not to Deewiant, but since I'm talking to multiple ppl at once and can't highlight one, how would anyone know < 1221595652 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can highlight people < 1221595654 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just do it once < 1221595655 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the cleanest way may actually be to link with c++ libraries when linking the final executable < 1221595656 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: use reverse higlights < 1221595656 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: do it like this < 1221595657 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then this < 1221595659 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then don't do this: < 1221595659 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like this: < 1221595660 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ^ < 1221595664 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that is _annoying_ < 1221595665 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyonebuttusho: this is an example < 1221595667 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@151.60.134.230 JOIN :#esoteric < 1221595672 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: it doesn't work, I'm afraid :-/ < 1221595673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also turn off that sound then, I make mine just flash the window < 1221595678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so well tusho's own issue < 1221595684 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: that was the first thing I tried, -lstdc++, but no help < 1221595690 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i like the sound because most people DON'T ABUSE IT BY HIGHLIGHTING THE SAME PERSON TWICE FOR ONE BLOCK OF MESSAGES < 1221595693 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: -lstdcxx on Windows < 1221595695 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not my problem, YOUR abuse < 1221595697 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the filename restrictions < 1221595700 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, it's libstdc++.a < 1221595701 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC < 1221595702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :issue is tusho that I'm switching between several convos < 1221595703 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1221595717 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and it would complain if it couldn't find it :-) < 1221595718 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: SO ADDRESS ME AT THE START, I AM A HUMAN BEING IN POSSESSION OF A BRAIN. I CAN WORK OUT WHICH MESSAGES FIT < 1221595723 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: tried linking with g++? < 1221595735 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I can't do that, this is a Haskell program I'm linking in to < 1221595739 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: ah, I took your message to say it had complained < 1221595744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, one word: SOL < 1221595751 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's four words < 1221595755 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: evidently other people have got this to work < 1221595764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, not after the : now < 1221595765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no* < 1221595770 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figure I'm going to ask them next if I can't get this to work < 1221595775 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, I expanded the acronym < 1221595782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1221595785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets try again < 1221595798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, one acronym (or four words): SOL < 1221595802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1221595808 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I wonder what the hell is _Unwind_Resume < 1221595821 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: ah, I might remember that one < 1221595824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, guess: related to C++ exceptions < 1221595827 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check something and get back to you < 1221595832 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :librtti then or something? < 1221595842 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r01jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1221595860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, as far as I can remember, unwind information is used for when you throw exceptions < 1221595864 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you should visit ##nomic. < 1221595865 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1221595873 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lies. < 1221595879 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why. :( < 1221595886 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: it's in libgcc.a < 1221595889 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the secret library < 1221595893 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1221595897 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only if compiling for C++, I think < 1221595940 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I seem to have no such library < 1221595964 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: it isn't in /usr/lib < 1221595968 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in some top secret gcc place < 1221595978 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in /usr/lib/gcc/[arch triplet]/[gcc version]/libgcc.a < 1221595986 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evidently so, pikhq < 1221595989 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just found it < 1221596001 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: same for me without the /usr, in gccbf at least < 1221596020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: http://www.squeakvm.org/squeak64/faq.html now that means the image files are incompatible across 32/64-bit, and 64-bit is very very experimental < 1221596024 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Speaking of gccbf, how well is that working? < 1221596029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I assume you can export stuff outside the image? < 1221596035 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, you can < 1221596041 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chunk streams < 1221596050 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and voila, the thing compiles < 1221596053 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks everybody < 1221596054 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically converts a bunch of classes and shit to code < 1221596057 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is run when you import it < 1221596062 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, yeah, shame that it's experimental < 1221596065 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure it's being worked on < 1221596067 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: that's from 2007-10 < 1221596070 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps not very up to date < 1221596073 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I've done all the easy bits, a few hard bits left < 1221596077 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also most of it isn't tested < 1221596081 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1221596091 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm busy doing other things to avoid having to work on the hard bits... < 1221596092 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this whole process took less time than the average time to run a ./configure script < 1221596096 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should start doing this every time < 1221596160 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: what were you trying to compile < 1221596169 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: FTGL < 1221597072 0 :jix!n=jix@g224152065.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1221597221 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1221597238 0 :ais523!n=ais523@sm01-fap04.bham.ac.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1221597238 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1221597549 0 :Hiato!n=Hiato@dsl-245-24-48.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1221598464 0 :comexk!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comex < 1221598548 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"CommandQ" < 1221598819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heheh this is wickedly versatile < 1221598856 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what is? < 1221598863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://rafb.net/p/T54vtH55.html < 1221598875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it can load a binary (special erlang data type) anywhere in funge space < 1221598899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was using some bad line based code before < 1221598909 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks like both Haskell and Prolog < 1221598916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, with about 10 times the loc < 1221598922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh what part looks like haskell? < 1221598931 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the algorithm < 1221598939 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Haskell it would be written the same way just with different syntax < 1221598954 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :likewise Prolog would use the same algorithm again < 1221598966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it is tail recursive, and it loads into FungeSpace, which is a special thing called "ets" table, offers destructive storage tables < 1221598977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that speed was actually needed < 1221598982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or mycology took several minutes < 1221598987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using a dict < 1221598990 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to load, or to run? < 1221598995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, to run < 1221599044 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... maybe an attempt to make a fast Funge interp would have a fixed-size array for the area of the code taken up by the original program and a hash table for other parts of fungespace < 1221599046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ets tables are implemented as BIFs (built in functions), are not garbage collected (means I have to remember to call ets:delete() at the end) < 1221599059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge is still several times faster < 1221599071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy to notice when running the life.bf example in cfunge < 1221599075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it is life.b93 < 1221599079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot filename < 1221599082 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I've been thinking of things like using plain arrays for dense areas < 1221599091 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't bothered to implement anything though < 1221599102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that should probably help < 1221599107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would* < 1221599147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also what part looks like Prolog? < 1221599155 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: erlang's syntax is a carbon-copy of prolog < 1221599158 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is practically identiacl < 1221599161 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*identical < 1221599163 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm talking about the algorithm < 1221599167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, well the binary match syntax too? < 1221599171 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no < 1221599173 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the syntax is also similar, despite the paradigm being different < 1221599180 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's one section of two lines < 1221599185 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rest of it looks like prolog < 1221599189 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Prolog uses [ | ] rather than << / >> < 1221599193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, and yes erlang did take a lot of syntax from prolog < 1221599195 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but other than that it's the same syntax < 1221599198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that is for lists < 1221599198 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<< / >> is not [ | ] < 1221599206 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<< >> is some weird binary thing < 1221599207 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, in Prolog it would be a list < 1221599209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and / is for data type < 1221599221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<<>> is indeed a binary like tusho said < 1221599235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway what about erlang's use of ,;. < 1221599240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is in fact slightly annoying < 1221599248 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not identical < 1221599251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it use ,;. instead of {} blocks < 1221599253 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since prolog doesn't really have structures like that < 1221599259 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, {} blocks suck < 1221599262 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Prolog, , is and and ; is or < 1221599264 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :srsly < 1221599268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example , between statements, ; at the end of a block and . at the end of the final function block < 1221599270 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and . is the end of a predicate < 1221599284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so when you move stuff around you need to change line ending < 1221599290 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :, is necessary AFAIK, ; isn't as you can simulate it with other things and in fact people normally don't use it < 1221599295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well at least I don't need to change indention like in python < 1221599299 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't? why not? < 1221599302 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(use ;) < 1221599306 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: change identation? < 1221599309 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*indentation < 1221599311 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, your editor sucks. < 1221599311 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1221599319 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just rearrange and voila. < 1221599320 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: because you can write the condition twice instead, that's often clearer < 1221599353 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance p(A,B) :- q(A) ; r(B). can also be written p(A,B) :- q(A). p(A,B) :- r(B). < 1221599365 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, cool, I didn't know that worked < 1221599367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, your editor auto indents? < 1221599371 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's one of the few contexts where doing it with the ; is shorter and neater, normally writing twice works better though < 1221599374 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Uh...yes? < 1221599378 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, I am 1970! < 1221599380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, ah well < 1221599388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well mine does too for erlang or such < 1221599393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but copy paste, blergh < 1221599398 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for befunge then? ;-P < 1221599404 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: python-mode handles rearranging and copypasting and everything < 1221599411 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just not an issue < 1221599417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does even the word "indentation" make any sense in befunge context? < 1221599421 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: do you use Prolog much? Writing multiple conditions is really common < 1221599452 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I have a Prolog course at school right now so no, I don't use it much, but I better learn it soon ;-) < 1221599457 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance p(A,B) :- A = 1 ; A = 2, q(B) is better written p(1,_). p(2,B) :- q(B). < 1221599461 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, of course not. :-P < 1221599492 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get used to that sort of thing after a while; probably very quickly as I hardly know Prolog but I know tricks like taht < 1221599495 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ah/ha/ < 1221599513 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the case I was thinking of was p(A,B) :- q(A,B) ; q(B,A). < 1221599531 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: that could be written out twice, semicolon's probably neater there < 1221599537 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reasonably unusual to see something like that < 1221599542 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you use q for anything else? < 1221599549 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q was given in the assignment < 1221599555 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, q(A,B) :- q(B,A) at the end of the definition of q might have been neater < 1221599569 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1221599573 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably the teacher doesn't let you modify their predicates, though... < 1221599578 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it possible to define predicates out of order? < 1221599582 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. < 1221599589 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p(A,B). q(A,B). p(B,A). < 1221599590 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: depends on the implementation, I think < 1221599598 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but one of the ones I used didn't conform to the standard < 1221599606 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case I think it could be done < 1221599609 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in-order is neater anyway, and asserts are allowed out of order < 1221599629 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, q(A,B) :- q(B,A) doesn't work < 1221599632 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an infinite loop < 1221599646 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it doesn't match, right < 1221599647 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logically correct but not programatically correct < 1221599657 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid logic being so idealistic < 1221599675 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, can that be dealt with? < 1221599676 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so easy to write an infinite loop in Prolog because you write something that's mathematically correct but can't be implemented... < 1221599677 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Stupid programming being so pragmatic. < 1221599691 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: yes, q(A,B) :- q(B,A) works just fine in Proud < 1221599718 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is idealistic not pragmatic < 1221599723 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, I know, I think I need to understand the evaluation model a bit better as I'm finding it a bit hard to reason about predicates < 1221599725 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand Proud doesn't work just fine on modern computers < 1221599728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, "Proud"? < 1221599738 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: basically Prolog minus all its restrictions < 1221599749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? and why doesn't it work on modern computers? < 1221599750 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an esolang I invented and never specced, nor really worked out the syntax for < 1221599754 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's superTuring < 1221599759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah........ < 1221599761 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1221599771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, solves the halting problem? < 1221599785 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, it can compare functions < 1221599791 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think so < 1221599807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so could I, give me the program code or byte code for two functions < 1221599813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I shall be able to compare them < 1221599832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the byte code match, the functions logically match too < 1221599846 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if you can compare any two single functions < 1221599852 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and tell us if they do the same thing or not < 1221599854 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, functions can do the same thing despite having different code < 1221599856 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(compute the same thing for the same arguments) < 1221599858 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... < 1221599860 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, x*2 is the same as x+x for integer x < 1221599865 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you are the most amazing human ever found on this planet < 1221599877 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can calculate, er, anything < 1221599878 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe < 1221599941 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: AnMaster's found a sufficient but unnecessary condition < 1221599950 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two functions having identical bytecode are the same, generally speaking < 1221599953 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1221599960 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but two functions can be the same even with different code < 1221599975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: no, functions can do the same thing despite having different code <-- of course < 1221599985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the question wasn't clear enough < 1221599994 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: for instance, imagine comparing a function which prints 1 if there's a solution to the Riemann hypothesis with a function which always prints 1 < 1221600018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also for " for instance, x*2 is the same as x+x for integer x" <-- strong typing functional language, and a good optimiser, then byte code will be same < 1221600035 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, yes, but that was a trivial example < 1221600041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed I couldn't solve that < 1221600084 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nobody can, it's a super-Turing problem < 1221600096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, however if you write the first function then I shall gladly try < 1221600098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1221600101 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible to write a Proud program to solve that problem, though, thus Proud is super-Turing < 1221600114 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, this explains the existence of some of Prolog's restrictions... < 1221600131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway you can solve it in some cases, you can say that two functions are "definitely the same" or "maybe different" < 1221600135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on the byte code test < 1221600145 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but that isn't super-Turing < 1221600159 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could compare it to an interpreter that ran Proud programs sometimes, if they weren't too difficult < 1221600162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but the original question wasn't clear enough then < 1221600163 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be pretty eso in itself < 1221600336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how goes gcc-bf and Feather? < 1221600343 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not much progress atm < 1221600353 0 :Corun!n=Corun@cpc1-rdng19-0-0-cust700.winn.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1221600361 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm busy finding displacement activities to avoid having to work out how to divide 64-bit numbers in 8-bit brainfuck < 1221600373 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if someone would just paste an algorithm, that would be great... < 1221600376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well do all the other parts work? < 1221600382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the only bit left? < 1221600387 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: most of them, there are a few other parts roughly as difficult as that < 1221600391 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the other parts aren't tested < 1221600398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well what other parts? < 1221600406 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a few other relatively easy things to do like comparisons < 1221600406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test the parts you can test < 1221600417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make hello world in it < 1221600423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 32-bit cfunge should work fine < 1221600428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you have double data type < 1221600540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also it can't be that hard < 1221600560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, just extend the algorithm for working on 16 bit divide, then the one for 32-bit < 1221600568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually two of the 32-bit < 1221600572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ some glue magic < 1221600574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should work < 1221600580 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I have code for that, it's insanely slow even to think about < 1221600586 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I compiled the asm for it to see what would happen < 1221600590 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and brainfuck in general isn't? :-P < 1221600593 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I think it calls itself recursively in an infinite loop < 1221600593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how many lines? < 1221600603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, then it is broken < 1221600605 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :over 9000 < 1221600606 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably a few thousand taking into account all the recursive calls < 1221600612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so fix that < 1221600621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what is that reference? < 1221600643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, cfunge got some recursive calls in it hm < 1221600667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :body recursive in at least one case < 1221600671 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dragonball z, english dub of the anime, a guy looks at something that tells him the power level of his enemy, yells "over 9000" in disgust and crushes the device < 1221600674 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :approximately < 1221600685 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably easy to find on youtube < 1221600700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, some rpg? < 1221600706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what is that dragonball? < 1221600711 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english dub of the anime, like I said < 1221600717 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which word do you not understand :-P < 1221600719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean you don't have power levels outside games < 1221600724 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you do :-P < 1221600735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you don't, not measurable ones < 1221600738 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you do :-P < 1221600750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not in real life anyway < 1221600754 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :later on their power levels are so high though that the devices just break < 1221600757 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you think? < 1221600779 0 :ais523_!n=ais523@sm01-fap04.bham.ac.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1221600779 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523_ < 1221600791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, turn off that script < 1221600810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no way you could say it same second otherwise < 1221600821 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1221600823 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1221600825 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's definitely a script, tusho was asking me to cycle to help em debug < 1221600846 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not only that but it says it in several different channels... < 1221600895 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no. < 1221600897 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 was going to script it < 1221600904 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he only gave up because he thought it not worth the effort < 1221600907 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, it is fair game < 1221600924 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: "not worth the effort", exactly < 1221600932 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but i've already done the effor < 1221600932 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I decided the gain from it would be small and possibly negative < 1221600932 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1221600936 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's no effort for me, so. < 1221600945 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we stopped really playing the game a while ago < 1221600946 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so meh < 1221600951 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p.s. you just lost the game < 1221601161 0 :ae5ir!i=rob@unaffiliated/robdgreat JOIN :#esoteric < 1221601539 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Maybe I'll try finding the phone number of "Greg Richards" instead. < 1221601662 0 :Hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1221602387 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1221603605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1221603608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, tusho < 1221603612 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi AnMaster < 1221603612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Deewiant < 1221603616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2003-May/008886.html < 1221603621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C. Pressy used erlang < 1221603625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who would have thought < 1221603631 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1221603638 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at catseye.tc sometime would you < 1221603640 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he has tons of erlang stuff < 1221603655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho, ah I looked at his befunge pages mostly < 1221604261 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1221604270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night all < 1221604279 0 :ais523!n=ais523@sm01-fap04.bham.ac.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1221604279 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1221604283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1221604323 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1221604765 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1221604940 0 :tusho!n=tusho@91.105.85.60 JOIN :#esoteric < 1221604957 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1221604960 0 :tusho!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Connecting to Tor is slow. < 1221604971 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho: in #esoteric? < 1221604988 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION says c-b-l to confuse the #esoteric denizens the same way it confuses the ##nomic denizens < 1221605694 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1221605911 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1221606292 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1221607066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* ais523 says c-b-l to confuse the #esoteric denizens the same way it confuses the ##nomic denizens < 1221607080 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lies! There is _no_ c-b-l < 1221607109 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: actually I was in #c-b-l a while ago, it was empty though < 1221607131 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a one person c-b-l is no c-b-l < 1221607165 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you are a schizophrenic solipsist, perhaps < 1221607208 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/schizophrenic/multiple personality/ < 1221607241 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm would a solipsist have to believe he has multiple personality disorder, i wonder < 1221607869 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"9"