00:00:41 pikhq: 00:00:42 ping ping 00:00:52 agora are trying to exile you because you're a shite speaker 00:23:56 -!- tusho has quit. 01:00:32 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 01:00:54 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 01:07:18 BITCHES OF #ESOTERIC, HERE ME 01:07:25 HEAR EVEN 01:07:30 I HAVE MANY TYPOES FOR YOU ALL 01:09:01 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 02:25:58 -!- Corun has joined. 03:11:27 -!- Corun has quit ("BAKED"). 03:24:32 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 03:27:27 so guys 03:27:29 hows it goin 03:27:55 oklofok, have i mentioned recently how hot you are? 03:45:23 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 03:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | fizzie pulls out his marijuana - "And this helped too". 03:58:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:18:37 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:28:00 q45t 05:28:19 silly num lock 05:28:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:29:37 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 06:49:43 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:05:43 -!- oklopol has joined. 07:05:43 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:34:19 -!- jix has joined. 07:49:38 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:45 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:12:49 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 08:20:49 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 08:46:20 -!- oklopol has joined. 08:46:25 I have no recollection of the context the current topic has. 08:48:06 Apparently I woke up at 16:00 one Friday, and the topic was GregorR's speculation on the reason. 09:14:05 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 09:25:38 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:26:27 fungot: How should I improve you next? 09:26:28 fizzie: see this: slashdot.org/ comments.pl?sid=99801&cid=8509203 linux. or at least a few people are making silly things for linux 09:29:17 fungot: Uh... I don't quite get it. You already have a command line interface of sorts, and are running on Linux; and I'm not going to expose that stuff directly to people on the channel, nope. 09:29:18 fizzie: but kelsey still has it. basically you get bloat at runtime instead of compiletime function an ok way to describe it. ( plt scheme actually has such a mechanism often named thus. all syntax-rules implementations based on this single statement of yours? :) 09:29:52 optbot: You're usually more coherent; do you have any good ideas? 09:29:53 fizzie: *Oh*. 09:30:02 optbot: What? 09:30:02 fizzie: !undaemon ctcp 09:30:27 optbot: fungot doesn't have any "ctcp" command, and I don't quite see the point. 09:30:27 fizzie: things like online javadocs, tutorial sites and w3schools have saved me hundreds of dollars in books 09:30:28 fizzie: according to our consensus, for " 3" does not mean that all rings should have a locale with an encoding that will be 09:31:00 Those things aren't very useful for serious advice. :/ 09:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | lisp is nice too. 09:50:34 optbot: Isn't it traditionally "a cat" which is fine too, not lisp? 09:50:34 fizzie: A recursive array. 09:50:46 A recursive array is fine too. Hmm, right. 10:14:19 -!- oklopol has joined. 10:22:31 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Jesus loves you"). 10:23:44 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 10:42:51 -!- oklofok has joined. 10:42:51 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:43:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Jesus loves you"). 10:44:28 hiya all 11:02:43 -!- tusho has joined. 11:06:35 -!- LinuS has joined. 11:26:19 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:26:32 -!- oklopol has joined. 11:47:57 -!- oklofok has joined. 11:49:17 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 12:08:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:26:45 hi ais523 12:26:49 you are early 12:26:52 hi 12:26:54 and no, I'm late 12:26:57 I still haven't gone to bed yet 12:26:58 ? 12:27:01 oh. 12:27:01 wow. 12:27:06 it happens sometimes 12:27:06 ais523: ... wow 12:27:07 :D 12:27:12 I can't sleep for an entire night... 12:27:30 i can, mostly because i stay up late. 12:27:35 so i'm tired. 12:27:54 although things have been working out to about 8 hours of sleep recently 12:28:28 -!- LinuS has quit (Connection reset by peer). 12:29:20 ugh 12:29:25 jksdfhisdfhsdkjfhkdjsfksdjf fuck reddit comments 12:29:29 "[citation needed]!! HAHA! Xkcd!" 12:29:37 what the fuck happened to DOING YOUR OWN RESEARCH 12:29:41 god damn. 12:30:09 No original research! 12:30:15 tusho: to be fair, if you make an assertion, you should back it up 12:30:23 Deewiant: of course 12:30:31 but it's done when the poster has made a negative assertation 12:30:47 "Hey, I bet this steals your passwords and eats your babies." "Um... no it doesn't?" "[CITATION NEEDED BITCH]" 12:31:05 you're the one who made the statement, give ME the evidence 12:31:12 hmm... there are burden of proof problems right there 12:31:42 just post the source and they'll shut up :-P 12:31:56 Deewiant: "but you could be running a modified version with extra evil" 12:32:04 (seriously, I am 100% certain they would say that) 12:32:15 sure, somebody would 12:32:17 most wouldn't 12:32:26 #ifdef LICENCE_MANAGER 12:32:44 (a line from pic30, a modified version of gcc with extra evil) 12:33:00 Deewiant: but I see it all over reddit 12:33:02 it's just annoying 12:33:07 sorry, it's called MPLAB C30, pic30 is what gcc thinks of it as internally 12:33:13 you can say whatever you want and if people challenge you you can just say [citation needed]. 12:33:17 bullshiiiiiiiiiiit 12:33:21 tusho: citation needed 12:33:29 ais523: [citation needed] 12:33:38 tusho: ( ais523) tusho: citation needed 12:33:51 ("that's evil" "i don't think it is..." "[citation needed]") 12:33:53 tusho: you may laugh, but people actually use {{disputedtag}} on occasion 12:33:58 (can be reduced to "that's evil" "[citation needed]" "[citation needed]") 12:34:01 there have been edit wars over it too 12:34:10 however, the ones who say [citation needed] are never the ones who understand burden of proof 12:34:11 :D 12:34:13 which means that there's a dispute over whether something is disputed or not 12:34:19 ais523: wow 12:34:43 tusho: there can be edit wars over the strangest things on wikis, Wikipedia gets them a lot but I think they affect other wikis too 12:35:01 for instance there was an edit war about whether a particular truck in the background of an area in Pokemon was notable or not 12:35:09 ais523: kind of related: people bugged me on WikiWikiWeb for not using my real name 12:35:15 because apparently using my real name makes me more trustworthy. 12:35:18 riiiiiiiiiiight 12:35:19 http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TuSho 12:35:44 tusho: it's not exactly that, it's that people who aren't trustworthy tend to be unwilling to reveal their own names for some reason 12:35:50 so it works as a filter one way but not the other 12:35:57 you exclude lots of people who are trustworthy too 12:36:10 ais523: actually, when I was young and naive I'd have a good reason not to reveal my name 12:36:13 my password was "elliott"... 12:36:53 tusho: anyway, where's the history link on c2? 12:37:00 as it is, it's very difficult to tell who's talking to you 12:37:11 arguably it doesn't matter, but that goes against the thrust of what they were saying 12:38:43 heh, c2 doesn't record contributors to a page forever, only for a certain length of time 12:38:55 so it's simultaneously anonymous and requires real names 12:38:59 that's an interesting compromise 12:39:37 Plastic SCM is saying goodbye to stuffy old software configuration management tools that are high on complexity and low on usability. With Plastic SCM every aspect of what you would expect from a configuration management tool has been enhanced. Trace the history of your projects with a number of graphical tools such as the per-file history that you can view through a 3D revision tree! How cool is that?! 12:39:41 I found it amusing 12:39:48 and it's more ontopic than the normal spam I come across 12:39:56 doesn't make me want to buy their product though 12:41:05 back 12:41:12 ais523: yes, that's intentional 12:41:16 also 12:41:19 plastic scm is quite popular 12:41:22 are you sure it's spam? 12:41:35 i haven't heard of well-known companies spamming a lot, reall 12:41:35 well, it's unsolicited bulk email 12:41:36 y 12:41:51 Subject: ?spam? Our Version Control tool is not just cool looking, its smart too! Is yours? 12:42:03 maybe someone else is spamming them 12:42:08 but there's no obvious reason why 12:42:14 it doesn't look like the work of a reputable company 12:42:29 maybe a phishing attempt disguised as spam? 12:42:32 that would be something new 12:42:43 ais523: you can find all the revisions in the wiki data dir 12:42:49 i can't remember where that is , though 12:42:52 and again they get expired 12:43:00 http://c2.com/cgi/quickDiff?TuSho 12:43:05 (found by clicking the link) shows the last change 12:43:14 it has no accounts, anyway 12:43:17 so it's all honour system 12:43:50 there is something very odd about that, but it resonated with me as being Wiki too 12:43:58 which makes sense, as c2 is the Wiki with a capital W 12:44:15 ais523: c2 is bizarre 12:44:21 wikimedia is such a distant relative 12:44:26 e.g. their Recentchanges is updated by a bot 12:44:29 once every 24 hours 12:44:34 just a regular pge 12:44:40 *mediawiki 12:44:52 yes, but even so I think I understand c2 in a way, pretty much any wiki model you'll have a faction of people on Wikipedia who thinks Wikipedia ought to work like that 12:45:14 and you get used to the politics after a bit, c2 is a bit like Wikipedia would be with a different political party in charge 12:45:28 ais523: it's kind of like america, isn't 12:45:29 it 12:45:31 both the parties suck 12:45:36 but one is mildly preferable :P 12:45:48 tusho: which one depends on who you are, though 12:46:06 http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ChangesInWeekThirtyThree 33rd week of 2007 ... listing changes from 2008 12:46:11 ais523: yea, i guess insane people differ ;) 12:46:17 [ICE BURN needed] 12:46:27 wonder how c2 would do citation needed. 12:46:32 probably add a long italic comment below it. 12:46:54 tusho: when I've worked on effective internal wikis they've ended up looking a lot like c2 12:47:04 indee 12:47:04 they normally act like extended group mind-maps, with hyperlinks 12:47:05 d 12:47:11 which is a good thing 12:47:21 although it's funny, wikis are actually a good replacement for most html sites 12:47:31 Wikipedia is pretty strange as wikis go, it's sort of like using Google Docs to write an encyclopedia with a wiki attached for discussing it 12:48:59 hmm... wiki software is strangely abusable too 12:49:13 for instance I wrote a JavaScript multiplayer networked chess program 12:49:18 using MediaWiki for data storage 12:49:44 ha 12:49:52 ais523: one problem I think mediawiki has 12:50:00 is that was designed for 'everyone edits, better make it safe' first 12:50:18 i think if you started with something made for a personal site-wiki-thingy that are quite popular these days - i.e. free for all, locked down permissions 12:50:25 then put the restrictions etc on top of that 12:50:32 it might result in something more flexible & less adhoc 12:50:50 for wikis, adhoc is good 12:51:12 well, yes 12:51:21 but not in the part of the software meant to be structured, ais523 12:51:24 i'm talking about the software 12:51:28 ah 12:51:57 e.g. for a personal wiki, you'd want something that you could poke about in standard tools for some purposes 12:52:05 sort of like the monks from HHGTTG, but instead of demanding rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty you're demanding a rigidly structured framework in which to be adhoc 12:52:09 so you store stuff in the filename (not much relational about well, documents anyway) 12:52:12 err 12:52:13 LOL 12:52:15 nice slip 12:52:18 in the FILESYSTEM 12:52:21 (how intercal.) 12:52:26 and use an existing VCS, etc 12:52:27 tusho: yes, very INTERCAL 12:52:30 and probably a DVCS so you could edit locally 12:52:37 and then, wow, hey, you get merging 12:52:42 which turns out to be helpful in a more open, public site! 12:52:44 see, benefits like that 12:52:49 btw were you reading what I said when I told you about my new evil idea for command line argument syntax? 12:52:59 kind of 12:53:12 sorry, I like telling people about that sort of random evil 12:53:23 I haven't implemented most of the random evil ideas I've come up with yet, though 12:53:52 ais523: incidentally, 12:54:01 http://developer.mozilla.org/En doesn't run on mediawiki, although it really looks like it at first glance 12:54:11 "Powered by MindTouch Deki Enterprise Edition v.8.05.2b" 12:54:28 http://developer.mozilla.org/index.php?title=En&action=history <-- The goddamn URL is even the same. The UI for the history is better, though. 12:56:21 http://developer.mozilla.org/index.php?title=Special:Listusers&limit=50&offset=50 12:56:26 that is the EXACT URI that mediawiki uses 12:56:27 :) 12:56:33 it doesn't look like it's based on MW, though 12:56:42 tusho: the UI for the history is the same, but skinned differently 12:56:55 ais523: but the other pages look different 12:56:56 e.g. login 12:56:59 the confusing thing is it's using the same URIs as MediaWiki everywhere 12:57:02 i think they just imitated mediawiki 12:57:04 ais523: well, no 12:57:10 but doesn't have any of the other hallmarks of MediaWiki 12:57:17 http://developer.mozilla.org/Project:en/About 12:57:23 lots of language stuff in the url 12:57:27 i am pretty sure it's not based on MW, anyway 12:57:32 i guess they just imitated the UI they likec 12:57:34 *liked 12:59:22 well it's open source, so I'm going to settle this the traditional open source way 13:00:06 indeed 13:00:08 check it :P 13:00:11 * tusho does the same 13:00:15 hmm 13:00:18 they only provide distro packages 13:00:20 and a vmware thing 13:00:21 enterprisey 13:00:55 ais523: http://wiki.developer.mindtouch.com/Deki_Wiki/Installation_and_Upgrade/1.9.0_Itasca_Source_Code_Install_and_Upgrade_Guide 13:01:02 ok, THAT is obviously not mediawiki 13:01:13 guess mozilla just made it looks like MW 13:02:37 ais523: can you slap me, I'm about to go off writing a wiki engine 13:02:43 and I Shouldn't 13:02:47 tusho: no, slaps tend not to work over IRC 13:02:50 at least not very well 13:02:54 ais523: how about a Swhack 13:03:06 ok 13:05:14 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 13:05:18 Deki Wiki looks worrying, anyway, it's full of dependencies on Windows and/or Mono 13:05:27 "Adding services, like Microsoft Windows Live Controls, as a built-in component 13:05:27 to a wiki is super interesting; MindTouch Deki Wiki is truly breaking new ground," 13:05:27 said George Moore, general manager, Windows Live Platform at Microsoft. 13:05:31 that's from their README 13:05:39 ais523: well, that's what microsoft want to do with it 13:05:44 ais523: if you read their installation instructions, they're for mono 13:05:49 nothing wrong with mono/C# 13:05:52 nice VM, nice language 13:05:54 well they have mono as a dependency 13:05:57 yes 13:05:57 and 13:05:59 ? 13:06:13 and lots of people are paranoid about mono because they think installing it allows Microsoft to sue you some time down the line 13:06:13 ais523: gnome depends on Mono these days 13:06:17 http://www.gnome.org/projects/tomboy/ 13:06:25 a gnome/C# app that runs on Mono 13:06:29 i don't think it'd even run on windows 13:06:33 tusho: no it doesn't, the person in charge wants it to but there are no Mono dependencies in Gnome core nowadays 13:06:42 ok, well ubuntu includes t 13:06:43 it 13:06:47 yes 13:07:02 apparently there are two programs in Ubuntu by default that depend on it 13:07:28 also someone put in a dependency for OpenOffice.org on Mono but there isn't a dependency there actually and after removing the dependency it still works 13:07:41 what gui toolkit does openoffice use again? 13:07:47 it's some crazy shit that looks like java but isn't 13:07:48 iirc 13:07:55 not sure 13:08:26 and arguably any GUI made by Sun ends up looking like Java, because it's the same GUI designers 13:09:08 they should fire 'em 13:09:08 :D 13:11:56 -!- tusho has changed nick to mupersan. 13:12:04 -!- mupersan has changed nick to tusho. 13:12:25 -!- tusho has changed nick to mupersan. 13:12:30 -!- mupersan has changed nick to tusho. 13:14:45 Well, mupersan has been defeated. 13:14:55 The name would trip me up if I didn't already have one. 13:15:23 Hm. Now language choice will trip me up. Damn. 13:15:26 INTERCAL! 13:15:26 tusho: the last few events here in #esoteric would look pretty weird to anyone who wasn't in the other channels that provide context 13:15:31 ais523: quite 13:15:40 oh, btw, hi optbot, hi fungot 13:15:41 ais523: no it's not :( 13:15:41 ais523: so include the code? :p) and all is well and good.' you can hang around in mystream. but when you pass your custom port to a procedure without naming it after " people who are used to 13:15:53 I, for one, am confused about what just happened. 13:16:26 fizzie: I don't think it makes sense without having been in ##nomic at the same time 13:16:27 Especially with irssi's nick-tracking-for-query-windows, which added a "You are now talking with mupersan" line as the first line I noticed. 13:18:58 fungot: provide some context for fizzie 13:19:04 fungot? 13:19:05 ais523: do you think I should give perl another chance for this? 13:19:15 fungot: test 13:19:15 fungot: Why so quiet? 13:19:19 tusho: actually I'd rather like to see it in INTERCAL 13:19:24 ^help 13:19:26 ais523: you can port it ;) 13:19:27 but that would be really difficult 13:19:31 Wow, been a while since the last crash. 13:19:33 i'm not insane enough 13:19:42 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:19:48 maybe I should make an INTERCAL backend for gcc, not sure if it would be easier or harder than brainfuck 13:20:01 worryingly many of INTERCAL's commands are not too hard to explain to gcc 13:20:07 It saw that ais523 "provide some context" line and got confused. 13:20:13 it can understand what ABSTAIN does to some extent, for instance 13:20:24 but it tends to assume things that aren't true 13:20:25 -!- fungot has joined. 13:20:48 fungot: Feeling better? 13:20:49 fizzie: ( indirectly via fnord and my blue fnord long underwear all ready to go through all words in the stdlib 13:20:59 Sounds... fungotty enough. 13:21:00 fizzie: guess i've not done any forth coding since... well, physically around me without specifying " good stewart" versus " xtu". ( advanced in his mind uses it. 13:21:45 Test hi 13:21:56 hi fungot 13:21:56 ais523: those are just the ordinary ( for call/ cc))) hangs 13:23:58 ais523: is there any actual justification for a lot of perl's weirdness? 13:24:02 yes 13:24:04 I can see how some of it leads to interesting stuff 13:24:05 but most of it... 13:24:21 Perl is designed to be ruthlessly pragmatic AFAICT 13:24:57 but a lot of the pragmatism is just silly & afaict not very helpful either 13:30:53 ais523: does perl have a Git module? 13:30:54 hmm. 13:30:56 seems so 13:31:02 ah. it's part of official git 13:37:28 For disturbingly many X, "does perl have a X" has a positive answer. 13:39:36 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 13:39:36 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:41:32 fizzie: libido? 13:42:00 tusho: well in C you could import that with -lido, Perl naming conventions are a bit different though 13:42:18 man someone make a protocol called ido already 13:42:18 :D 13:43:13 Hmm. I haven't bought any albums, recently, apart from this one. 13:43:19 * tusho Swhacks himself for being a naughty pirate. 13:43:23 * tusho denies that Swhack. 13:43:30 (/me checks download status...) 13:44:10 -!- tritonio__ has joined. 13:44:44 Why must there be throttles in the world. 13:44:45 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:44:46 Whyyyy. 13:45:12 tusho: to prevent one person being able to slashdot the entire Internet with wget 13:45:40 (there are ways to set its settings so it'll download every web page linked from any other webpage recursively forever, which will end up downloading much of the Internet, but this is a bad idea) 13:46:10 ais523: Or rather so that the file dump sites can sucker you into being a premium account. (I'd use bittorrent except 1. if a friend uploads it I can be sure of the quality & correct tags 2. It's more reliable, in general, whereas torrents often end up with incomplete files etc) 13:50:53 Woop woop. Downloaded. 13:51:09 tusho: what did you download? 13:51:19 An album. 13:51:26 Ugh, my fonts have messed up. 13:51:32 Always seems to happen after catting /dev/urandom. 13:51:34 * tusho restarts 13:51:40 tusho: use the reset command? 13:51:52 that cleans up a random cat for me 13:51:55 ais523: no I mean literally 13:52:00 even if I restart the terminal 13:52:04 how? 13:52:05 it's something to do with os x font caches 13:52:09 I imagine leopard fixes it 13:52:11 that's pretty bad terminal design... 13:52:19 ais523: it happens with any terminal 13:52:21 I think its an os bug 13:52:24 but it rarely happens 13:52:33 mostly if you give it really wacky unicode over the course of several days 13:52:38 how can the OS mess up the fonts just because you catted something to a terminal? 13:52:43 i don't know. :P 13:53:51 oh, btw I found an explanation of SGML comments that actually made sense 13:54:12 it seems that is fine in SGML (and therefore in early versions of HTML) 13:54:18 it is 13:54:26 because ends it, and -- toggles a comment inside a declaration 13:54:46 ah, that's how it got the syntax 13:54:50 that's why starts and ends a comment but ends up inside a comment 13:54:53 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:55:10 brb. 13:55:16 -!- tusho has quit. 13:56:48 -!- jix has joined. 13:58:21 -!- tusho has joined. 13:58:41 ugh, mouse out of battery again 13:58:50 that does it, after this i'll put back in my crappy old wired mouse 13:59:02 tusho: that's why I'm using a wired mouse at the moment too 13:59:10 ais523: it didn't used to do this 13:59:14 but it's been dropped a few times 13:59:16 and this mouse is very crappy, I suspect it's made of cardboard but am not sure 13:59:25 and I think that fucked it up 13:59:39 (the batteries have a little checker thing on the side and they always have like a third) 13:59:45 (and yet the mouse says they're dead) 14:00:40 tusho: could be a loose connection causing resistance inside the mouse, the battery charge would appear lower to the mouse because less voltage and/or current would get through 14:00:40 and I can see how dropping a mouse would cause a loose connection 14:00:55 ais523: something over my head like that, yes 14:00:59 it scratched the teflon base 14:01:08 so now it's awkward to use on anything other than a fibrous mouse mat 14:01:11 and it's slowed down a bit even on that 14:01:16 so i had to turn accelleration up 14:02:38 ais523: http://zeepmobile.com/ neat 14:02:52 they use the last 40 chars of the message for ads though :( 14:02:57 still. neat. 14:03:30 tusho: now all that's needed is someone interfaces it with Java, then we can plz send everyone the code 14:03:37 ais523: brillant 14:04:04 sending SMS messages from Java was the original question that sparked off that particular meme 14:04:10 yes, I know 14:09:00 -!- oklopol has joined. 14:11:48 So. 14:12:03 hi oklopol 14:12:20 hi 14:12:27 anyone an expert on mips? 14:12:36 yes, GregorR 14:12:36 i want like a spec, but i'm too lazy to ggl 14:12:38 GregorR is I think 14:12:48 hear that GregorR? we're pinging you 14:12:53 like this: GregorR 14:15:50 mp[e 14:15:51 *nope 14:16:41 tusho: the FSF have released a new propaganda video which I'm watching atm, it's good if you like unintentional humour 14:16:48 ais523: by stephen fry? 14:16:51 yes 14:16:55 i'll watch that in a bit 14:16:58 i like stephen fry a lot 14:17:28 basically they've persuaded him to spout propaganda lines explaining what FSF-free software is in terms that a kindergarten could understand 14:17:34 which is all very patronising 14:18:01 ais523: i'm sure he had a lot of fun being patronising too 14:18:13 yes, I agree 14:18:43 the FSF are still desperately trying to promote gNewSense 14:18:55 yea, i read the reddit comments to that video and saw gnewsense 14:18:58 and i just laughed 14:19:09 oh FSF, when will you learn about reality? 14:20:23 ais523: could you check if rutian's apache is gzipping pages it sends? 14:20:24 i hope so 14:20:25 they released it cc-nd 14:20:32 ugh, I hate -nd 14:20:32 tusho: I think I can check 14:20:40 it's evil 14:20:48 tusho: the FSF think propaganda should be no-derivs 14:20:55 ais523: yea, god forbid they get made fun of 14:20:57 the Emacs manual ended up being declared non-free by Debian 14:21:01 for a while 14:21:05 until they changed their mind about that 14:21:21 ais523: i think I might remix stephen fry's video to make the FSF look even more ridiculous (after watching it) and host it out of spite 14:21:34 and have at the bottom, two links 14:21:41 fsf.org - "Support free software!" 14:21:45 Lots of GNU program documentation is in Debian non-free, thanks to GFDL. 14:21:47 creativecommons.org - "Support free culture!" 14:21:49 "...wait" 14:22:07 fizzie: Hm, so Wikipedia isn't debian-free? 14:22:28 tusho: it depends on what options on the GFDL you select 14:22:31 Wikipedia is debian-free 14:22:40 According to vrms, I've got non-free packages like: autoconf-doc, gdb-doc, gcc-doc-base, ocaml-doc. 14:22:40 but the GFDL has all sort of optional extras you can add on 14:22:55 for including propaganda into a document in a non-free way 14:23:06 as long as it's unrelated to the subject of the document 14:23:07 Immutable sections were the thing I saw people griping about. 14:23:09 i have non-free software such as ... um ... I don't think it'll fit on an IRC line :P 14:23:32 Yes, well, I just selected some of the "-doc" packages I had; there's others. 14:23:36 in other words GFDL lets you add a section of propaganda to your documentation that nobody's allowed to remove, as long as it has nothing to do with the content people are actually looking for 14:24:25 of course people who try to use the GFDL sanely, like me and whoever selected the licence for Wikipedia, disable all the optional extras and just end up with a licence that actually resembles the cc licences a bit 14:24:55 i'd say something witty but I can't think of anything to make this funnier :) 14:25:44 I think the problem is that the FSF don't really 'get' free software, despite having invented it 14:26:06 ais523: my take on it is that the FSF are obsessed with making the general public all brainwashed to support everything they say 14:26:15 so they add loads of terms to obligate the spreading of the propaganda 14:26:27 (exaggerated, of course, but the basic idea) 14:26:40 they'd be good virus writers 14:26:41 tusho: bad news, it isn't gzipping, I would tell you in #ESO but you aren't there 14:26:49 ais523: ah, so that's why it's not all that fast 14:34:38 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/dbkAv776.html 14:34:41 not sure about it 14:34:44 but could be relevant 14:35:06 or could be false positive 14:35:12 AnMaster: those warnings aren't just in the compiler, they're in the C-INTERCAL manual too 14:35:22 they're potential gotchas for people writing code to interface with INTERCAL code 14:35:29 ais523, um? 14:35:31 huh? 14:35:40 ah 14:35:47 AnMaster: the manual warns that the variables won't be initialised and so don't rely on them being initialised 14:35:48 longjmp into a function? 14:36:01 AnMaster: yes, or goto into a block with initialised variables 14:36:07 right 14:36:13 as in goto a; {int b; a: ; } 14:36:14 ais523, anyway you could have a bug there 14:36:28 ais523, and this is not with EC stuff 14:36:30 continuation.i 14:36:32 -m 14:36:35 so not sure... 14:36:59 oh, wait 14:37:05 actually that's just a false positive 14:37:16 because those variables go out of scope before they can be used 14:37:24 the code for -m is more like goto a; {int b=2; } a: ; 14:37:29 which is clearly not a problem 14:37:52 it's kind-of obvious that's happening from the error because it's skipping a huge number of variables with the same name 14:37:57 which don't shadow each other 14:38:03 so they all go out of scope before there's a problem 14:40:38 * tusho downloads some more stuff 14:41:13 ok 14:42:24 17 minutes remaining... 14:44:55 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p144322651.txt readable and/or Cish? 14:44:58 i'm a bit rusty 14:45:19 oklopol: quite Cish 14:45:24 oklopol: those bitfields will cause havoc on an 8-bit system 14:45:27 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:45:31 ais523: how so? 14:45:34 oklopol: use int argc, char **argv though 14:45:37 instead of nargs,args 14:45:40 right 14:45:43 they don't fit nicely on 8-bit boundaries 14:45:44 but apart frmo that, it looks kind of like c from the 70s :P 14:45:46 which is cool 14:46:00 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:46:06 ais523: well then i'll just have to do the bitshifts manually. 14:46:21 oklopol: do you care about 8 bit systems 14:46:21 tusho: C from the 70s would be main()int argc;char** argv;{} 14:46:22 :P 14:46:26 ais523: well, you know what i mean 14:46:39 which basically means writing in python what the C compiler has for this exact case 14:46:57 oklopol: just do what you're doing 14:47:05 unless you wanna run it on a nes 14:47:48 -!- oklofok has joined. 14:47:48 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:47:55 i've managed to break another cable 14:47:58 god i suck 14:48:09 "as always, i want it to run on my own computer, everything else is just gravy." was my last message, not sure if you got it. 14:49:16 oklopol: no, leave it as it is 14:49:16 the compiler will sort it out for you 14:49:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:49:31 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:49:33 "sort it out"? 14:49:34 wb ais523 14:49:36 what do you mean 14:49:51 i need the bitfields to have that exact structure, because i'm writing that raw into a file 14:50:13 sort out the shifting the data into the struct? 14:50:25 oklofok: C doesn't guarantee any structure in bitfields 14:50:36 for instance, what's the endianess of a 26-bit int? 14:50:41 well that sucks donkey ass 14:50:46 it will vary from system to system 14:50:58 -!- Judofyr has quit. 14:51:03 the bits are guaranteed to be in the order you say but there may be padding between them 14:51:28 so basically i have to shift everything manually into an int 14:51:31 gcc lets you remove the padding with __attribute__((__packed__)) but I'm not sure if that'll work on non-32-bit systems, where your bitfields cross the boundaries between ints 14:51:40 manual shifting is safer, and easy 14:51:42 that sucks donkey balls 14:51:58 yeah, well, i'll stick with this one, and make a python program convert all that for me 14:52:11 not convert, shiftorize is the correct term 14:52:23 oklofok: why not just use attribute packed 14:52:25 it's probably the best 14:52:30 after all, you only care about your system 14:52:30 -!- tritonio__ has quit (Client Quit). 14:52:31 anyway i have some business to attend to, see you in a bit 14:52:32 so it'll be OK 14:52:37 tusho: well i kinda missed that line :P 14:52:40 :P 14:52:44 yeah, that'll indeed be okay 14:53:02 i think i automatically skip lines that contain something as complicated as __attribute__ 14:53:25 you will have to tell me how that's used later, when i actually start making this 14:53:45 oklofok: it isn't standard C, gcc lets you do that sort of thing but some compilers don't or have different syntax 14:53:59 ais523: yeah that's fine by me, but how exactly is it used? 14:54:22 do i just write __attribute__((__packed__)) in my diary or something? 14:54:28 you put the syntax after the } of the struct definition 14:54:30 or should it be written in the code somewhere 14:54:37 ah, after the whole thing 14:54:44 good, i'll be trying that 14:54:58 but, ima take a break from irc now, see you in a bit -> 14:55:03 ok 14:58:04 tusho: heh, newlib is formed by combining code licenced under 28 different BSD-style licences and the LGPL 14:58:15 haha 14:58:18 that's legal, but hardly good style 14:58:25 :P 14:58:53 it makes the copyright notice stupidly long 14:59:19 ais523: idea for a copyright license 14:59:34 for each derivative 14:59:39 you have to add one word to a one word story included with the program 15:00:20 tusho: I wanted to write an anti-copyleft licence which was still open-source; all derivative works had to add an extra condition to the licence, preferably a silly one which hardly ever comes up 15:00:24 heh 15:00:29 copyside 15:00:35 therefore derivative works can be non-open-source but the original is open source 15:00:55 I don't think I'd use such a licence except for something silly though 15:01:04 I mean, sillier than usual 15:01:22 ais523: what about a licensenomic 15:01:32 different derivatives could vote on license changes in their parents 15:01:36 tusho: combining a nomic legal system with a RL legal system? 15:01:40 exactly 15:01:58 that would get very dangerous very quickly, especially when it came to indemnification 15:02:16 ais523: it'd probably have a huge legalese of limitations 15:02:18 you might end up having to pay Apple the damages for being sued by Microsoft, for instance 15:02:24 ha 15:02:30 it'd only be for silly things anyway 15:14:32 a 15:22:52 hmm, is there an assembly that requires you to declare a register before you use it 15:23:16 you could have the speed benefit of not having to push everything @ call, but still have the safety 15:23:42 oklofok: C written entirely with gcc asm statements 15:23:54 well yeah 15:24:10 but that's even higher up 15:24:12 i don't want that 15:24:29 that gives you the speed benefit 15:24:38 it's just very verbose 15:24:47 the whole thing collapses into just the asm when it's compiled 15:25:00 sure 15:25:09 * ais523 recalls writing asm like that on a different compiler because they didn't know how to use the assembler 15:25:20 but, you don't have to specify the registers you use, and that's a bit boring 15:25:26 hmm 15:25:31 actually you do have to do that 15:25:51 you will have to elaborate on how a register is declared in C 15:26:05 inside an asm statement 15:26:16 oklofok: again you can't do that in general, in gcc you can declare a variable to be in a particular register 15:26:18 can't you just write any assembly you like? 15:26:31 and in gcc you have to specify the inputs and outputs to each asm statement you write 15:27:08 i should learn more about gcc, it seems to be incredibly awesome and great 15:27:35 it's good for doing non-portable stuff, and most of the stuff you're asking about can't be done portably 15:29:13 i don't care about portability, i mainly wanted to know whether that idea has been investigated 15:29:38 gcc's asm is awesome compared to asm in all the other non-gcc-based compilers I've used 15:29:48 well, i invented it for my stack-language->brainfuck compiler as well, it's not really an invention; guess that's why i specifically asked whether it exists 15:29:58 most of the others required you to guess where everything went when mixing asm and C 15:30:02 in the same source file 15:30:09 heh 15:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | print message. 15:46:30 optbot! 15:46:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you are not allowed to use a printout?. 15:46:34 optbot! 15:46:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Ah. Fine ;).. 15:46:39 :) 16:04:34 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:06:39 brb. 16:10:35 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 16:11:26 gcc lets you remove the padding with __attribute__((__packed__)) but I'm not sure if that'll work on non-32-bit systems, where your bitfields cross the boundaries between ints 16:11:26 manual shifting is safer, and easy 16:11:27 well 16:11:30 in erlang it would be easy 16:11:36 very easy 16:11:46 AnMaster: what if you were on a system with 11-bit ints? 16:11:51 not that they exist, but they could do in theory 16:12:14 well, 11-bit char 16:12:22 it would have to be 22-bit int, 33-bit or 44-bit long 16:12:30 and long long would be 66 bits or more 16:18:36 -!- AnMaster_ has joined. 16:19:48 -!- AnMaster has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:20:14 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster. 16:20:19 so 16:20:21 what was the last I said? 16:20:23 ais523, ^ 16:20:27 not that they exist, but they could do in theory <-- last I saw from anyone else 16:20:29 I said several lines after that though 16:20:42 [16:11] gcc lets you remove the padding with __attribute__((__packed__)) but I'm not sure if that'll work on non-32-bit systems, where your bitfields cross the boundaries between ints 16:20:42 [16:11] manual shifting is safer, and easy 16:20:42 [16:11] well 16:20:42 [16:11] in erlang it would be easy 16:20:42 [16:11] very easy 16:21:15 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/yehiAb75.html 16:22:07 _ means don't care in Prolog too 16:22:38 well erlang doesn't do back tracking 16:23:40 for union it would be harder 16:24:01 you would probably do it in two steps 16:24:22 <> 16:24:29 unless there was some easy way to see 16:24:46 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:24:49 for example, first bit set of Opcode means that it is a "Rinstr" 16:24:52 then you could do: 16:24:54 -!- oklopol has joined. 16:25:30 <<2#1:1,Opcode:5,Rs:5,Rt:5,Rd:5,Shamt:5,Funct:6>> 16:25:35 2# for base 2 16:26:00 I love Erlang pattern matching :) 16:26:07 ais523, it is so powerful 16:26:34 lots of langs have powerful pattern matching, unfortunately most of the really popular ones don't 16:26:38 -!- BMeph has joined. 16:26:54 I saw some code to detect if it was a MPEG frame. the function prototype was: decode_header(<<2#11111111111:11,B:2,C:2,_D:1,E:4,F:2,G:1,Bits:9>>) 16:27:02 MPEG frame header* 16:27:45 ais523, anyway how many got such powerful bit matching syntax? 16:27:56 -!- BMeph has quit (Client Quit). 16:28:09 -!- BMeph has joined. 16:28:23 it can also be used to construct, not just pattern match 16:28:34 AnMaster: Prolog doesn't have bitwise variables but it can match arrays and tuples the same way as that, and likewise can construct the same way 16:28:53 well erlang can do it for arrays and tuples too 16:29:37 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/C7qQoh24.html 16:30:10 in Prolog the entire lang's pattern matching, pretty much 16:30:13 with backtracking 16:30:45 well erlang doesn't use backtracking, doesn't really make sense for something "soft realtime" (which erlang is, not hard realtime though) 16:30:53 I should really write more Prolog, it's a beautiful language but I haven't written more than simple test programs in it 16:31:36 ais523, back tracking wouldn't be good for something performance critical 16:31:49 AnMaster: it depends on how deep it is 16:32:05 you can write Prolog so that every predicate is deterministic, then all backtracking collapses into an if 16:32:13 -!- Mony has joined. 16:32:23 ais523, does prolog have list comprehensions? 16:32:36 hi 16:32:43 hello 16:32:45 I'm not entirely sure what a list comprehension is, but I'm pretty sure from memory that it does 16:32:48 and hi Mony 16:33:06 1> L = [1,2,3,4,5]. 16:33:06 [1,2,3,4,5] 16:33:23 say you want to multiply each number in the list by 2 16:33:31 you could use lists:map 16:33:32 like: 16:33:38 2> lists:map(fun(X) -> 2*X end, L). 16:33:38 [2,4,6,8,10] 16:33:40 or 16:33:44 -!- BMeph has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 16:33:48 ah, that sort of thing's generally done using setof 16:33:52 3> [2*X || X <- L ]. 16:33:53 [2,4,6,8,10] 16:33:56 like that 16:33:59 where the list comprehension is mixed into the syntax of the rest of the language 16:34:01 that is a list comperhension 16:34:02 the last one 16:34:05 map of course isn't 16:34:36 ais523, eh? 16:34:45 doublemember(A,L) :- member(B,L), A is B*2; 16:34:48 well 16:34:51 then you do setof(doublemember(A,L),A) 16:34:52 [2*X || X <- L ]. 16:34:56 that is a list comprehension 16:34:59 map() isn't 16:35:03 that's almost exactly your list comprehension just with more verbose synta 16:35:05 s/$/x/ 16:35:10 ais523, hm yeah 16:35:42 ais523, you can have several comma separated entries after the || there in erlang 16:35:44 well, "list comprehension" generally means "that, but with less verbose syntax" :-) 16:36:03 of course all list comprehensions can be rewritten in terms of combinators like map 16:36:09 Deewiant: yes, a quick Wikipedia check shows that someone invented "Visual Prolog" which has a short syntax for a list comprehension 16:36:13 Deewiant, indeed 16:36:21 1> [ X || {a, X} <- [{a,1},{b,2},{c,3},{a,4},hello,"wow"]]. 16:36:22 [1,4] 16:36:24 Prolog tends to have consistent syntax rather than short syntax, though 16:36:31 pattern matching everywhere! :) 16:36:46 pretty much syntax can be deduced from the rules of the language 16:37:08 ; , ! :- are pretty much the only control flow operators you need 16:37:13 List comprehensions have been all the rage after Python did them; they added those to Javascript, too. (In Mozilla, although it might be in a later ECMAScript version too.) 16:37:17 and you don't need to write ; explicitly either 16:37:56 ais523, um, erlang got if and case, but you can always use pattern matching instead 16:38:11 however sometimes it is clearer with if and case 16:38:18 than calling another function for it 16:38:22 AnMaster: in Prolog it's always done with pattern matching 16:38:30 or with , 16:38:32 for if 16:38:33 sometimes 16:38:34 ais523, sometimes the alternative is more readable 16:38:45 it depends on if you're used to reading Prolog, I suppose 16:39:16 max(X, Y) when X > Y -> X; 16:39:16 max(X, Y) -> Y. 16:39:17 nice 16:39:24 AnMaster: trivial 16:39:28 tusho, indeed 16:39:33 max x y | x > y = x 16:39:34 but still a nice syntax 16:39:38 AnMaster: that looks like Prolog with a non-standard syntax 16:39:38 | otherwise = y 16:39:40 max x y | x > y = x 16:39:41 | otherwise = y 16:39:46 (just getting that in line :P) 16:39:51 ais523, it is erlang 16:39:59 let me translate it into Prolog 16:40:01 max x y = if x > y then x else y 16:40:10 don't hate if statements :< 16:40:19 max(X,Y,R) :- X > Y, !, X=R 16:40:25 well the "when" keyword in erlang is a guard 16:40:34 can be used with pattern matching too 16:40:34 max(X,Y,R) :- !, Y=R 16:40:39 hmm... that can be shortened 16:40:47 max(X,Y,X) :- X > Y, ! 16:40:56 max(X,Y,Y) :- Y > X 16:40:59 X,Y,X? 16:41:04 AnMaster: pattern matching 16:41:09 it matches the argument to the function against the result 16:41:13 ais523, it takes 3 parameters? 16:41:16 there is no distinction in Prolog 16:41:24 AnMaster: the return variable is always one of the arguments in Prolog 16:41:29 ah ok 16:41:33 things return values through their arguments 16:41:44 apart from pass/fail Booleans 16:41:46 ais523, so everything doesn't have a value in prolog? 16:41:54 AnMaster: functions are only pass/fail 16:41:56 AnMaster: prolog doesn't work like that 16:41:57 ah 16:41:59 well, not functions, predicates 16:42:02 it's a totally different paradigm 16:42:03 right 16:42:16 "Most actual digital computers have only a finite store." <<< wonder what turing meant by this exactly 16:42:19 they can put extra restrictions on their arguments as a side effect 16:42:21 tusho, yes though ais523 seem to suggest it is close to erlang 16:42:26 and erlang is functional 16:42:27 AnMaster: it's not 16:42:29 other than syntax 16:42:33 and functionalism 16:42:34 AnMaster: no, I was suggesting it had similar pattern matching facilities 16:42:40 Prolog is declarative, not functional 16:43:03 ais523, well I read that erlang is classed as something in between declarative and functional 16:43:04 well, functional is declarative to an extent 16:43:39 Deewiant: yes, it can be, but it's not really crazy declarative like Prolog 16:43:40 the difference is that prolog is logic programming 16:43:55 Deewiant: apart from ! 16:44:02 the cut messes things up so beautifully 16:44:07 although it's pretty hard to explain 16:44:09 what does ! do? 16:44:36 AnMaster: prevents backtracking backwards past the ! to earlier in the same predicate or an alternative to that predicate, backtracking has to go to a previous predicate instead 16:44:49 heh ok 16:45:14 ais523, does Prolog support files? sockets? 16:45:31 probably the best way to explain to a C programmer is that the difference between no cut and cut is a bit like the difference between if(a){do_a();} if(b){do_b();} and if(a){do_a();} else if(b){do_b();} 16:45:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:45:54 ais523, well I'm an erlang programmer too :P 16:46:00 AnMaster: not sure if that's in the standard library, the original implementation implemented files in a pretty quaint way with routines with silly names that tended not to be copied 16:46:00 well a bit 16:46:07 AnMaster: but I don't know erlang and I do know C 16:46:13 ah true 16:46:29 to get the Prolog equivalence working properly, think of do_a() and do_b() as either doing nothing or not returning depending on whether they can do something 16:46:30 ais523, concurrency in prolog? 16:46:51 AnMaster: they wouldn't mix well, loops in Prolog work differently from in most other languages 16:46:59 well, you can loop by recursion, which functional programmers are fine with 16:47:06 yes erlang does loops that way 16:47:09 and you can loop by backtracking which is just weird if you're not used to it 16:47:13 tail recursion 16:47:31 ais523, how do you cause a backtrack to happen? 16:47:44 AnMaster: any command failing, normally due to a lack of pattern match 16:48:00 ais523, won't it give up at some point? 16:48:03 AnMaster: you can look at http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/prolog.php for instance for prolog programs 16:48:07 AnMaster: when it runs out of possibilities 16:48:08 when it tried all possibilities 16:48:14 ais523, so how could you loop then? 16:48:22 AnMaster: repeat. repeat:-repeat. 16:48:33 ais523, meaning? 16:48:41 that translates roughly as "One way to repeat is to do nothing; another way is to repeat." 16:48:52 ok.... 16:48:53 which means that there are an infinite number of different ways to repeat, due to the recursion 16:49:01 ais523: you're kind of breaking AnMaster's brain 16:49:13 ais523, is this like tail recursion? or does it eat up stack space 16:49:23 AnMaster: you;re thinking way too low level 16:49:26 STACCKKKKKKKKKKKKKK 16:49:26 AnMaster: it doesn't eat up stack space, nor trail space 16:49:32 ah ok 16:49:43 it does have a problem with nowhere to save data though unless you use things like assert 16:49:58 so normally you implement your own leaky version of repeat so you can leave the loop at both ends 16:50:09 now is the loopie actually done by writing stuff in the first repeat? 16:50:17 tusho, a non-tail recursion would eat up call stack space, while a tail recursive one would basically be translated to a goto to the start of the function 16:50:18 so you don't just infloop nop 16:50:28 AnMaster: that's low-level thinking 16:50:38 oklopol: no, a sample infloop printing hello world would be goal:- repeat, print("Hello, world!"), fail. 16:50:38 prolog is a Very High Level language, as they're called 16:50:44 tusho, "what the implementation is doing" thinking yes 16:50:49 nothing wrong with that 16:50:55 AnMaster: it is when you're thinking about the language 16:51:02 ais523: oh i see 16:51:06 it's why a ton of things i try and explain to you go over your head 16:51:07 tusho: I know the naive way to implement prolog, so I can think in terms of implementations too 16:51:17 ais523: but he's not thinking naively 16:51:20 there are less naive ways that run a lot faster though 16:51:23 he's thinking about optimizations and stuff 16:51:28 it's just not productive in this situation 16:51:42 no I'm not 16:51:46 tusho: you need to read several mathematical papers which I haven't read to understand how Prolog optimisation works, apparently 16:52:00 if you want to do an infinite loop, for example a thread dispatching messages 16:52:06 then you want tail recursion 16:52:19 god, now I remember why I ignored AnMaster 16:52:22 as you will run out of memory after some 10000 loops or so 16:52:22 that's better. 16:52:32 now this is very erlang style of thinking actually 16:52:45 because erlang is kind of a mix between high and low level functional language 16:52:55 AnMaster: tail recursion or backtracking in Prolog to prevent running out of stack, a good implementation won't run out of trail in tail-recursion either unless you're doing something silly like building an infinitely-long list 16:52:59 erlang supports so called "linked in drivers" to interact with native code 16:53:14 for example someone made a "SDL and OpenGL" linked in driver 16:53:19 used by wings3d 16:53:29 a 3D modelling program written in erlang 16:53:58 ais523, indeed, but *non* tail recursion... 16:54:30 AnMaster: well you wouldn't use that if you wanted to write an infinite loop 16:54:42 that way you'd run out of both stack and trail, probably irrelevant which one runs out first 16:54:50 i don't believe in stack overflows 16:55:05 ais523, exactly what I said... 16:55:43 ais523, I'd say erlang is both high and low level 16:56:05 high level functional programming is perfectly possible, but interacting with low level stuff is easy too 16:56:37 not very odd when you think about it 16:56:40 well Prolog is definitely high level, it doesn't even have anything very equivalent to what most languages call variables 16:56:46 it is a general purpose programming language 16:57:04 ais523, variables are "one time assign" in erlang if that is what you mean 16:57:24 I heard somewhere that one of Prolog's original creators (or old developers) said that it would have been better off as a library in another language 16:57:32 can anybody verify that? 16:58:14 Deewiant: it's widely agreed on nowadays, I believe 16:58:21 ais523, there *are* ways to get around that, for example using something called EDS tables, which are mostly used by the transaction database mnesia coded in erlang, it need to be stateful for obvious reasons 16:58:28 AnMaster: variables are not exactly one time assign in Prolog, they get narrowed down over time 16:58:31 Franz's Allegro Common Lisp has a prolog query language built in 16:58:33 tusho: is there a semi-credible source for such a statement? 16:58:37 Deewiant: my brain 16:58:38 ais523, oh that is a new one hehe 16:58:42 tusho: so no :-) 16:58:48 Deewiant: cocks 16:58:51 wait, no 16:58:55 they dont' generally remember things 16:59:00 sheesh, thought i was on to something then 16:59:01 sorry 16:59:02 nor are they credible 16:59:03 no semi-credible sources 16:59:11 Deewiant: oh I know some VERY credible cocks 16:59:13 IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN 16:59:16 ... I don't know what I mean. 16:59:45 tusho: where do you get "it's widely agreed on", then :-) 16:59:48 said cocks? 16:59:54 my brain 17:01:03 AnMaster: basically in SSA a variable gets a value once and never changes, in Prolog once it gets an actual value it never changes (although the assignment can be backtracked past), but variables can be unified with other variables causing the variables to have to have the same value once a value does appear 17:01:19 tusho: your brain is that wide? 17:01:31 Deewiant: my brain is a cock, i think 17:02:48 tusho: i was going to avoid saying that 17:02:59 oerjan: it's ok, i can take the immaturity of this channel to new levels 17:02:59 ais523, heh 17:03:02 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:03:04 it's just hard finding a good time to do so 17:03:17 ais523, this sounds more like an automated logic proof checker or so 17:03:21 hmm it's also possible that my cock is a brain 17:03:24 but that'd be weird. 17:03:35 (I mean, weirder than this hypothetical "braincock") 17:03:49 ais523, no, more like: you give it some rules, and it works out a result that fits with all the rules 17:03:49 AnMaster: doesn't sound far off the mark, actually 17:04:00 AnMaster: that's pretty much exactly it 17:04:29 question: will it do "any ok match" or "best match"" 17:04:30 say 17:04:34 AnMaster: yes, were it not for the existence of ! that would be Prolog in a nutshell, ! throws the whole system quite out of kilter, which is why I like it 17:04:36 "any ok" 17:04:50 you have the coast line of africa and south america, and want to find the best possible fit 17:04:55 AnMaster: "first match", and you can get subsequent matches using something like setof or failing when you get a match you don't like the look of 17:04:59 within a given error range 17:05:20 or in your case you could mess about with assert, which is another way to go insane in Prolog 17:05:31 ais523, so prolog isn't suited for problems where there are "good" and "better" matches 17:05:38 like best possible fit 17:05:43 while no fit would be perfect 17:05:53 AnMaster: it's not really good for anything but headlong depth-first search which is bad for that sort of problem 17:06:07 that sort of problem is trivial to specify in Prolog but very difficult to specify efficiently 17:06:10 ais523, so what language would you recommend for the problem I suggested? 17:06:26 i'd recommend muture, if it existed yet 17:06:27 :P 17:06:30 how many albums have I downloaded today, 4 or 5? 17:06:33 i think 5... 17:06:46 and one arrived that i'd bought 17:06:47 AnMaster: not really sure, I can't think of one that fits offhand 17:06:56 tusho: sqrt(20) 17:07:00 well, I like all of them so far, so that's good 17:07:02 oerjan: wowzers 17:07:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection reset by peer). 17:07:12 made muture exactly for that, running it as a human computer can already accomplish fun stuff 17:07:28 ais523, actually I would use the "coast line" at say 1000 meters below the sea, I read somewhere that is a much closer fit than the "real" cost line 17:07:36 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 17:07:49 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection reset by peer). 17:08:23 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 17:08:28 the tectonic plates don't stop exactly at the seaside... 17:08:34 oerjan: lies 17:08:40 oerjan, true 17:09:07 oerjan, I'd blame erosion I guess 17:09:08 for example, i think britain is on the same plate as the rest of europe, and the north sea 17:09:16 + ireland 17:09:47 yes I know 17:09:54 also, sea level change 17:10:11 there was a relevant WP article... 17:15:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epeiric_sea i think it was 17:16:36 what *don't* you have vague knowledge about! 17:17:28 it's just a month or so since i discovered that article, and i had a hard time finding it again 17:18:32 (turned out North Sea had a link to it) 17:19:35 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgression_(geology) is also relevant 17:19:53 bam. 17:22:04 Lost the game/ 17:25:42 omg 17:25:43 i have an idea 17:25:50 oh dear, tell me anyway 17:26:04 a client filter that filters out messages like 'the game', 'i lost the game', 'the game: you all just lost it', etc 17:26:04 (n.b. this tends to be my typical reaction to anyone who claims to have a new idea, not just you) 17:27:09 he never claimed it was new 17:27:21 a wise move, probably 17:30:36 well, that was another good album 17:32:22 what you lisnin 17:32:29 izzi good 17:32:42 oklopol: no, i said it was good but i was lying 17:32:43 duh 17:32:47 why would i tell the truth? 17:33:00 i have no idea how good was it? 17:33:31 tusho: because it's shiny! 17:33:35 -4% in base -9i2 17:33:47 eek 17:34:04 er, what is that % doing there 17:34:52 tusho: I had that thought approximately immediately when you said "Lost the game/" 17:35:01 Deewiant: haha, awesome 17:35:02 oerjan: because 17:35:34 tusho: I was interested enough to look at /help ignore but too lazy to write the regex 17:36:25 Deewiant: .*[Gg]ame.* should work for most cases 17:36:37 ais523: a bit too inclusive :-) 17:36:58 TH/\T'5 WH/\T Y0U TH1NK 17:37:14 false positives are okay for that important a filtering 17:37:17 Also the ".*"s surrounding it are spurious, as it will accept a regex match anywhere in the string if you don't anchor it with ^/$. 17:37:32 fizzie: ah, I didn't know whether it was anchored or not 17:37:37 assuming anchored is more orthogonal 17:38:06 U \/\/ILL L0S3 TH3 G/\M3 /\NYH0\/\/ 17:38:47 oerjan: I have a Firefox extension to generate leet-speak, I only installed it for rot13 though and the leet came free with it 17:39:05 I used to have that one too 17:39:11 Y()|_| J|_|57 L()57 7|-|3 64|\/|3 17:39:19 ais523: GAME woul dwork with that, to 17:39:20 o 17:39:22 the question here is whether you have an extension to filter it, me thinks 17:39:25 YOU JUST LOST THE GAME 17:39:35 come to think of it that's sufficiently leet that I can't decipher it myself 17:39:38 oko 17:39:42 okoko 17:39:47 I had an ircII script installed which did leet among other ugly formats, once. 17:40:11 It did not convert from leet back to plain text, though. 17:40:20 okokoko 17:40:33 fizzie: the leet back to plain text converter worked fine on that string I pasted 17:40:40 oh, and okokokoko 17:40:41 a GAME fingerprint that maps A-Z to q? 17:40:58 Deewiant: wouldn't that be kind of pointless? 17:41:06 kind of? 17:41:25 Not just a "kind of", many kinds of. 17:41:25 besides, it should probably make all of A-Z print out the source code to the GAME fingerprint 17:41:30 in different programming languages 17:41:38 *, * -> *, * -> * -> *, etc. 17:42:02 oerjan: is that a Haskell kind signature? 17:42:03 okokokokokokoko 17:42:04 if so, what for? 17:42:04 okokokokokokoko 17:42:06 okokokokokokoko 17:42:10 a list of them 17:42:12 kokokokokokok 17:42:22 oerjan: ah 17:43:52 ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+[.----.++++] 17:43:53 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ... 17:44:03 fizzie: a work of art 17:44:08 oklopol: oko-approved? 17:44:25 is what oko approved? 17:44:30 that program 17:44:33 ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+[.----.++++] 17:44:33 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ... 17:44:44 i like it 17:44:53 especially [.----.++++] 17:45:12 oklopol: hmm 17:45:17 * tusho considers setting up ESO's Shrine to Oko 17:45:22 wait, no 17:45:22 it's oko 17:45:28 * tusho slaps himself 17:45:37 tusho: it's actually plp, there was an off-by-one error 17:45:44 ais523: like HAL? 17:47:03 oklopol: the oko shrine will have everything getting bigger and smalling and flickering and will be impossible to navigate 17:47:06 unless you are amazing. 17:47:23 aww, oko.org is squatted :P 17:47:38 apparently okoko is a surname 17:47:50 tusho: I once saw a website about how not to design websites 17:48:03 and they'd invented a navigation system which was even worse than the one they liked least 17:48:06 ais523: heh 17:48:11 what was it called? 17:48:16 Osuuspankki (a Finnish bank) has taken oko.fi; that's not surprising. (Although they're not using that domain any more.) 17:48:35 they were annoyed at navigation systems which just showed abstract shapes until rolled over 17:48:43 so you had to roll over each image to tell where you could go 17:48:51 oklopol: how many 'ko's does an oko site need? 17:48:55 so they invented one where the targets of the link were randomised on each rollover 17:48:55 okoko, okokokokokoko, etc? 17:48:57 (for the domain) 17:49:05 ais523: brilliant 17:49:29 ais523: http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/mysterymeatnavigation.html? 17:49:32 that's it 17:50:40 oklopol: well? 17:50:55 okoko, okokoko, okokokokokokokokokoko, ... 17:50:55 :P 17:53:21 And the Wikipedia Terrible Main Page Suggestion Combined With Bad Sig award goes to... 17:53:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page#Icon 17:54:23 tusho: there's a Main Page redesign competition-like object going on at the moment, there are therefore many candidates for the Wikipedia Terrible Main Page Suggestion award 17:54:29 not sure about the Combined With Bad Sig part 17:54:40 ais523: but that one is truly terrible, click the guys name and see it in action 17:54:56 tusho: I've seen the barnstar in question befor 17:54:58 s/$/e/ 17:55:04 ais523: but behind the logo? 17:55:06 spinning? 17:55:07 why do I keep leaving off the last character of sentences today? 17:55:25 ais523: becaus 17:56:03 anyway, I tend to look suspectly at anyone with 4 collapsible boxes of userboxes on their userpage, at least as far as main page design is concerned 17:56:46 oh wow, a wikipedia page that needs javascript 17:57:05 Deewiant: needs it? 17:57:13 most of the collapse stuff is designed to work without JS 17:57:14 contains stuff that needs it 17:57:24 although the way it's abused for userpages probably it does need the JS installed 17:57:28 I can't uncollapse anything with JS disabled 17:57:37 and I do have JS disabled for wikipedia 17:57:49 ugh, it should autoexpand without JS, someone's been messing up the autocollapse code for userpage use 17:57:56 a whole lot of dubious coding practices happen on userpages 17:58:25 hmm... if you can position:absolute things on wikipedia 17:58:33 then you could do a MySpace(TM) and make your completely own page 17:58:36 with just the basic chrome at the top 17:58:46 it'd probably be removed, but damn, gotta try that 17:58:58 oklopol: an oko shrine would have to run really fast, wouldn't it? 17:59:04 because while oko code is not fast 17:59:07 it EMBODIES fast 17:59:15 tusho: you can, but they started messing around with blacklisting various z-index messabouts because people were using them for trolling 17:59:29 ais523: ah yes, that one 17:59:33 GAWKY or something 17:59:36 with ascii goatse 17:59:40 all the ones that spambots have used automatically will be blocked, so you'll have to write the code an entirely different way 18:00:00 and no, the ascii goatse was something else but they blocked that too 18:00:24 hmm 18:00:30 i need to incorporate oko javascript into this shrine 18:00:36 perhaps news reports will be delivered by twitter 18:00:44 and got by making an ajax request to the archives 18:00:51 applying a formatting language for multi lines, etc 18:00:56 and accounting for split over multiple messages 18:00:58 then rendering it in the page 18:02:17 ais523: http://www.toad.com/gnu/sysadmin/index.html#firefox-eula-sux 18:02:20 Hear her. 18:02:21 *hear 18:02:32 tusho: Firefox has an EULA? 18:02:37 ais523: apparently 18:02:42 http://blogs.gnome.org/hughsie/2008/05/23/firefox-eula/ 18:03:36 well I never agreed to one on Ubuntu 18:03:45 ais523: presumably ubuntu remove it 18:03:52 yes, that's what I assumed 18:04:01 it's not like an EULA does anything in open source software anyway 18:04:08 ais523: speaking of browsers, seen google chrome? 18:04:10 besides, sed on a binary is pretty weird... 18:04:15 tusho: I've heard of it, but not seen it 18:04:18 the process seperation is badly needed, and IE8 actually excels in this area 18:04:29 and a new javascript VM is a plus too, js kind of sucks these days + a sandbox = yay 18:04:36 also a lot of the UI ideas look quite nice 18:04:46 just about every browser is getting a new JS engine anyway :-P 18:04:52 Deewiant: yes :) 18:04:58 should be coming out today for windows, apparently an os x version is following 18:05:01 tusho: apparently Slashdot has just decided that IEb2 uses more memory than Windows XP 18:05:01 and then linux 18:05:13 ais523: no wifi, less space than a nomad, lame. 18:05:31 s/nomad/monad/, or am I missing something here? 18:05:50 ais523: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23/1816257&tid=107 18:06:28 tusho: ah, Slashdot editor deciding they didn't like the iPod 18:06:36 ais523: cmdrtaco, even 18:06:40 admittedly there are still people who don't like iPods, quite a few 18:06:41 it's a rather famous post 18:06:48 but they are popular amongst the people who do 18:06:58 i use an iphone 18:07:02 though mostly as a portable web browser. 18:07:07 I don't use a mobile at all 18:07:11 (and ipod, though less often) 18:07:17 i never call anyone, pretty much 18:07:18 arguably my laptop's a portable web browser, though 18:07:19 except once recently 18:07:21 and texts are rare. 18:07:26 if a little bulky 18:07:36 and it needs to be in range of a wifi connection I can access 18:08:01 admittedly I generally use it to feed my web addiction before I go to sleep :\ 18:12:42 bye 18:12:45 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire..."). 18:15:20 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 18:21:56 g 18:25:35 http://www.kavoir.com/ <- crAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAzy 18:31:59 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:38:08 ais523: oh no. 18:38:14 oh no, oh no, NO! 18:38:15 http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10026577-2.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=Webware 18:38:27 ugh. 18:38:30 what a fuckup. 18:38:32 where do i opt-out? 18:38:42 come to think of it, isn't this shit illegal? 18:39:03 tusho: what are you referring to, the fact that the page you linked had no text put a headline? 18:39:08 s/put/but/ 18:39:14 ais523: um, no. 18:39:15 ah, it was just slow loading 18:39:31 more to the new advance in the war against privacy. 18:40:18 I normally don't worry about such software because it's too incompetent to do its job properly 18:40:32 let's just hope it doesn't become competent 18:47:07 What is it exactly that you would want to be illegal? 18:47:33 fizzie: I couldn't specify it exactly, but stuff like that. Anyone can just identify me in a photo like that. 18:47:39 (Obviously, it won't be that good, but that's the IDEA) 18:48:02 That's a violation of privacy. 18:49:33 tusho: where exactly is the violation? People teaching Google what you look at? Google using that information to find other pictures of you? Somewhere else/ 18:49:38 s/at/like/ 18:49:55 ais523: the violation is in the use of the feature to identify me & others 18:50:08 although since the feature has absolutely no other use, the feature itself is at fault 18:50:30 tusho: presumably it's for people tagging their own images Facebook-style 18:50:34 to help them tag more quickly 18:50:40 ais523: yeah, and I think that's bad too 18:51:03 i don't care if a photo you took has me in it. without my explicit consent you have no right to identify the figure as me 18:59:50 ZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM 19:00:10 on the subject of Web Pages That Suck, they found this: <-- warning don't visit if you suffer from epilepsy or similar problems 19:00:32 sorry, , I copied the wrong link 19:00:42 make sure you have JS on or you won't be able to see what's wrong 19:01:06 my god. 19:01:13 ais523: isn't that, like, an art site thing 19:01:16 if so it kind of makes sense 19:01:18 well, probably 19:01:20 without JS it's not that bad 19:01:20 but still... 19:01:29 Deewiant: have you tried with? 19:01:40 hmm... I wonder if that could be done with CSS nowadays, probably it could be 19:01:41 ais523: i think it's not a bad design for an arty kind of site 19:01:47 and no, it couldn't 19:01:48 ais523: I don't dare :-) 19:01:50 there's no < operator in css 19:01:53 tusho: except for knocking you out when you move the mouse? 19:01:54 you can't say "the parent of X" 19:01:58 ais523: that's art ; 19:02:00 *;) 19:02:03 the rule would be: 19:02:09 a:hover < body { background: ...; } 19:02:11 e.g.: 19:02:21 #link-about-trees:hover < body { background: green } 19:03:27 still, I reckon that design's inexcusable on any website, no websites should require the user to navigate with the keyboard because using the mouse drives them insane 19:03:44 also there's the apparent harmlessness of it before you hover the links 19:04:02 i think it fits for a graphic design site, personally 19:04:44 aww, they've changed it - http://moire.ch/ 19:04:45 tusho: you're insane 19:04:50 and yes, no wonder they changed it 19:04:53 ais523: yes, and? 19:05:19 tusho: most websites don't kill their users when they move the mouse from one end of the screen to the other 19:05:28 that would be an awesome site 19:05:34 ekillyourselfonline.com 19:05:38 tusho: I wouldn't want to visit it, though 19:05:43 I like the e in your name for it 19:05:52 ais523: They could travel back in time and put commercials on superbowl 19:06:03 they'd only cost $100million to make. 19:06:07 -!- Corun has joined. 19:06:15 and think of the benefit: people could eKill themselves! online! 19:06:20 tusho: there are standards for that sort of thing, the London 2012 Olympic adverts had to slow down because they flashed too quickly 19:06:55 ais523: the seizures were because it sucked so much 19:06:58 not because of the flashes 19:07:25 seizure the moment 19:07:27 tusho: they were, they have an automatic seizurometer 19:07:38 they had to slow it down to 1/4 of the speed to explain what they were talking about on the news 19:07:39 man I want one of them 19:07:46 oh 19:07:47 I thought you said 19:07:50 seizuromater 19:08:01 umm... that doesn't even make sense 19:08:02 egiveyourselfaseizureonline.com 19:08:05 seizuron 19:08:40 and it's lightweight cousin, the seizurino 19:08:44 *its 19:10:43 tusho: Okay, I was just checking that you don't advocate illegalizing facial recognition algorithms or something insane like that. (And sure the feature has other uses: you could use it to tag pictures from your collection containing the face of someone who consents, like yourself. In any case, it would probably be pretty hard to make it illegal to offer that sort of feature.) 19:11:25 fizzie: well, you can easily identify yourself without automatic recognition... 19:11:32 it's...not hard... 19:12:26 A friend with permission, then. And even tagging pictures containing yourself is hard if there are gazillions of them. Although I fail to see why anyone would want to add a "hey_look_its_me_hey_look_hey_look" tag. 19:12:38 eDeath sounds like something far less serious than death. 19:13:16 seizure the moment <-- heh 19:13:17 well lots of people tag photos on places like Facebook, I don't really understand it myself but apparently Facebook's quite popular 19:13:26 there is also the fancy design iDeath, which works straight out of the box 19:13:46 oerjan: You mean with plain old death you need to install all kinds of patches to make it work right? 19:14:09 yeah 19:14:24 no, plain old death is ok but kind of buggy 19:14:35 dthxi is the patch one 19:14:48 Death bugs might explain all the zombies that seem to be around. 19:14:51 iDeath is fashionable. Hipsters use it. Slogan: Die Different. 19:14:56 hahah 19:15:03 -!- ais523 has left (?). 19:15:12 tusho, :D 19:15:17 dthxbye _thinks_ it is fashionable 19:15:44 oerjan, what about plain old Death? 19:16:03 it hasn't been fashionable for eons 19:16:07 true 19:16:10 OpenDeath 19:16:13 there is always that :D 19:16:18 uh 19:16:19 death = windows 19:16:19 :P 19:16:25 tusho, good point 19:16:25 it _does_ have a large installed base, though 19:16:33 dthxi = linux 19:16:33 iDeath = os x 19:16:33 those were my analogies 19:17:01 hah 19:17:43 tusho, But some use the much more secure OpenDeath ;P 19:18:04 at least they think so 19:18:14 there was the Death Machine with its AI technology, but it was not commercially viable 19:18:20 AnMaster: well, I parodied apple with iDeath and am arguably an Apple fanboy but apparently openbsd fanboys can't bring themselves to do that 19:18:35 tusho, hah you are right 19:18:47 well I both like and dislike openbsd 19:19:07 on one hand, they made some pretty good stuff: OpenSSH, the pf firewall... 19:19:26 on the other: social skills = *even* less than tusho ;) 19:19:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:20:17 wb ais 19:20:19 aos 19:20:20 ais523: 19:20:55 tusho: 19:20:59 ais523: 19:21:49 Your :'s line up! Awesome. 19:21:55 fizzie: 19:22:10 fizzie: not really, given that the lines contain the same characters in a different order 19:22:38 ooh commutativity 19:25:23 45 19:25:37 656566969667596767665654657767444454646364454423435534432323321 19:25:45 61 19:26:06 (unsigned bignum)-1 19:26:11 0 19:26:25 (+ 1 MOST-POSITIVE-BIGNUM) 19:26:32 beth-aleph-aleph-3 19:26:44 (http://jwz.livejournal.com/854482.html) 19:26:58 s/-/_/g 19:27:17 s/[a-zA-Z]/A/g 19:27:32 AAAA_AAAAA_AAAAA_3 19:27:50 AAA AAAAA AA AAAAA! 19:28:07 oh ha ha, a joke from uncyclopedia 19:28:10 those are always funny 19:28:25 tusho: someone even based an esolang on it 19:28:31 ais523: unfortunately. 19:28:36 the strange thing about that joke is it has no obvious reason for existing 19:28:46 or even an obvious reason why it's funny 19:28:50 ais523: most uncyclopedia jokes are like that. 19:28:52 http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/AAAAAAAAA! 19:28:55 they don't really have a justification. 19:28:59 Deewiant: thank you, captain obvious! 19:29:03 hmm... can a joke be funny if it has no punchline, and no setup? 19:29:08 ais523: yes 19:29:11 like the null string, for instance? 19:29:16 "Very few things are truly justified" -- Oscar Wilde 19:29:25 tusho: more like, preventing others from having to search for it 19:29:33 ais523: here's a funny joke: 19:29:36 BUNNIES! 19:29:42 oerjan: nowadays, you can justify anything if you have a decent word processor 19:29:44 ("BUNNIES!" is not a punchline.) 19:29:56 ais523: ragged text is a lot nicer to read, though. 19:30:13 I didn't say it was a good idea, and not everyone agrees with you 19:30:19 :) 19:30:25 I think AnMaster would disagree very much 19:30:27 LEMURS! 19:30:30 Deewiant: probably. 19:30:36 though, uncontroversial is for screen use 19:30:41 This sentence is not a punchline. 19:30:44 oerjan: nowadays, you can justify anything if you have a decent word processor << :D 19:30:47 it has been studied a lot and proven that for screen use at least, ragged text is a LOT nicer 19:31:00 AnMaster: it's not an original joke, I misquoted it from somewhere 19:31:05 i prefer it overall, but for screen use there's really no controversy 19:31:08 AnMaster: Oscar Wilde did surprisingly well without one 19:31:16 well I always use justified text 19:31:19 much easier to read 19:31:20 tusho: on Wikipedia enough people wanted justified that they made it a preference option, and the devs hate adding preferences 19:31:21 even on screen 19:31:29 ais523: ew 19:31:33 unless I use monospace of course 19:31:37 although ragged is the default 19:31:38 like when programming 19:31:40 ais523, ^ 19:31:59 AnMaster: well, justifying program code is the sign either of an insane mind or an IOCCC entry 19:32:10 ais523, haha :D 19:32:17 AnMaster: 19:32:21 AnMaster: you do not have to highlight everyone 19:32:22 AnMaster: all the time 19:32:26 ais523: um i think one of those is contained in the other 19:32:27 AnMaster: because if they've just talked 19:32:31 AnMaster: then they're paying attention 19:32:33 AnMaster: to the channel. 19:32:34 ais523, I do tend to justify block comments however 19:32:35 AnMaster: thank you. 19:32:46 tusho, ah thanks for that :D 19:32:52 much easier to read 19:32:58 * AnMaster ducks 19:33:01 I tend to nick-prefix when there's more than one conversation going on at once 19:33:10 yes and there was there for a bit 19:33:18 * oerjan gooses 19:33:19 if I have two conversations at once with the same person in the same channel I normally nick-prefix one and not the opther 19:33:32 huh 19:33:34 AnMaster: ais523: oerjan: In future I'm going to nickping everyone active when I want to address everyone 19:33:35 ok that is strange 19:33:39 AnMaster: ais523: oerjan: so i'm sure they can see it 19:33:51 I agree with ais523 however there 19:34:04 and I'm going to do something else: tusho 19:34:04 tusho: optbot: fungot: that can get annoying when some of the addressees are irrelevant 19:34:05 ais523: gambit's compiler is somewhat better than realtime, meaning joe and jane average don't use linux 19:34:05 ais523: No. Everyone would have to leave here to keep the secret. 19:34:11 I'm going to nick suffix: tusho 19:34:21 i'm going to do something different too 19:34:24 classic: AnMaster 19:34:31 i just did it! ais523: i bet you can guess what it is 19:34:35 is it classic? didn't know that, ais523 19:35:14 anyway, I think I'll have a go at compiling newlib into brainfuck:AnMaster 19:35:19 middle-fix it, tusho? I guess so 19:35:21 ais523: don't wanna guess? 19:35:29 that way I don't have to implement more than about 8 or so functions 19:35:38 and a couple of them are trivial 19:35:40 ais523, still don't have internet at home btw? 19:35:49 no: AnMaster 19:35:52 :/ 19:35:54 An: i like circumfix :Master 19:36:21 that doesn't highlight (oerjan) highlight me 19:36:36 oTeHrAjTa nC:O U L D M A K E I T H A R D T O H I G H L I G H T 19:36:37 ooh 19:36:59 now please nobody tell me off for shouting 19:36:59 ais523: hmm? 19:37:18 otehrajta, atjarheto? 19:37:22 huh? 19:37:37 highlight(ais523). 19:37:43 wow, I'm surprised neither of you figured out what I just did 19:37:54 i'm waiting ais523 19:37:55 ais523, rot13? 19:38:03 railfence can be hard to read but I put one set of characters in uppercase and the other in lowercase to make it easier 19:38:10 read the uppercase and lowercase separately 19:38:25 ais523: what do you mean didn't figure out 19:38:25 OMG 19:38:27 oerja that? 19:38:28 all 2003 logs are gone from http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ 19:38:35 tusho, huh? 19:38:37 that's strange 19:38:50 tusho: do you still have them saved for optbot? 19:38:51 ais523: nothing really 19:38:54 i don't have to comment on every obvious thing 19:38:58 ais523: yep 19:39:24 tusho, so upload them somewhere 19:39:35 Uh? There's still old/esoteric-03.zip there. 19:39:41 ah! 19:40:50 oh 19:40:55 right :P 19:41:23 is this nef guy dead? 19:41:34 he does't seem to have updated thinsg since like 2006 19:49:52 -!- oerjan has quit ("ZZZZZZZZZZ"). 19:55:02 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:55:30 Oh, right; happened across that old old Penny Arcade comic the earlier webdesign conversation immediately reminded me of: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/1999/3/3 19:56:03 fizzie: did you visit the website in question with JS on? 19:56:13 tusho: is tunes dead? 19:56:17 ais523: yep 19:56:20 completely 19:56:25 The one discussed here? Nope. 19:56:27 for some years now 19:56:30 fizzie: tunes.org 19:56:52 it was kind of wheezing out the last breaths it could manage in 2003, 2004 19:56:58 but had been inactive a little before that 19:57:05 since then it's just a ghost town 19:57:23 there are still people in #tunes but they never speak until you comment on how dead the place is and they joke that it'll be active again one day. 20:02:48 ais523: well, that's the first time I've seen someone claim that the IE team has "imperial contempt for the world and all its people" seriously 20:03:00 where? 20:03:09 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6z460/official_google_blog_a_fresh_take_on_the_browser/c059gba, third child now 20:03:10 *down 20:05:24 God damn. hoodwink.d (http://hoodwink.d/) is still down. 20:05:28 -!- olsner has joined. 20:05:38 .d? 20:05:41 is that a real TLD? 20:05:50 ais523: no, you have to add hoodwink.d to your hosts file to go to it 20:06:04 so does it actually have a domain name then? 20:06:14 nope, but the ip doesn't work directly as it hosts multiple sites 20:06:17 so you have to add it to your hosts 20:06:18 after all you could aim, say, example.com there if you really wanted to 20:06:25 no 20:06:27 the Host header would be wrong 20:06:37 anyway, it's a site+greasemonkey script by why the lucky stiff that lets you comment on any site at all 20:06:43 it uses xpath expressions to find out where to put the comment box 20:06:49 it's a little underground toy thing and it was a lot of fun 20:06:56 but sometime in 2007 it just stopped working. :( 20:07:13 that actually sounds like an interesting idea 20:07:30 it is 20:07:31 -!- LinuS has joined. 20:07:49 ais523: one of the funniest was on wikipedia 20:07:59 people put nonsense articles in the comments for nonexistent articles 20:08:10 so that you could actually go there and see the article, albeit not in the content box 20:09:17 hey perhaps i could revive it myself 20:09:21 ... Nah. Nobody would use it. 20:09:44 I think there have been at least some "leave comments on any site" thingies; never have used any of them, though. 20:10:00 fizzie: this one was funnier, though, because of the undergroundness of it all 20:10:09 it had its own little forum which didn't do any foruming at all 20:10:16 it just had a hoodwink.d entry and put that in the content area 20:10:27 so all it handled was giving a new uri out on request 20:10:34 and to top it off, you couldn't see it 20:10:37 if you went there, it just wasn't there 20:10:41 because everything was display: none 20:10:44 so you had to add a user style 20:12:07 bye for a while (hour or so) 20:12:31 What sort of time zone was tusho in, anyway? 20:13:32 fizzie: UTC+1 20:13:37 the same as me 20:15:36 Oh, okay. 20:17:25 are there any java fanboys here? 20:17:39 I doubt it, we tend to scare them out of existence 20:17:39 The fact that the mentioned zeepmobile.com site only works in the US sort-of confused me. 20:17:47 ais523, good 20:17:54 heh 20:17:58 What do you need a Java fanboy for? 20:18:31 however I was looking for a fight with someone, since I tried to make a java app run and it just cause all sorts of problems 20:18:53 oh well 20:19:12 I'm sure there's a ##java or something. 20:19:26 tusho, are you ignoring randomly currently? 20:20:26 you will love this (and no: I'm making a joke, I don't really care about it, I was looking for something else when I came a across this) "Intel® VTuneâ„¢ Performance Analyzer 9.0 for Linux" ... but I can't use it, not free software 20:20:28 * AnMaster ducks 20:20:33 http://www.intel.com/cd/software/products/asmo-na/eng/vtune/239145.htm btw 20:20:47 I was looking for ICC for Linux x86_64 download actually 20:20:53 since I needed to try something out 20:21:25 AnMaster: Intel invented powertop too IIRC, that's something that Windows has no real hope of replicating atm 20:21:39 ais523, yes but powertop is open source 20:21:43 Isn't ICC a bit non-free, though? 20:21:43 so I like it and use it 20:21:48 fizzie, indeed it is 20:21:53 but I need to make sure stuff compiles 20:22:09 so does cfunge compile on VC? 20:22:19 Deewiant, it does compile on ICC 20:22:37 but current software uses X, my P3 that got ICC on it doesn't have X 20:22:49 it doesn't even have any screen 20:22:51 LLVM? DMC? Comeau? 20:23:03 Deewiant, gcc-llvm tested, works fine 20:23:04 Borland? 20:23:07 DMC and comeau? 20:23:11 I don't know what they are 20:23:17 MSVC doesn't do C99 20:23:24 -!- oklofok has joined. 20:23:26 Borland, don't plan to pay anything 20:23:36 hmm, I'm somewhat surprised you haven't at least heard of Comeau 20:23:46 but I guess it's more of a C++ thing 20:23:49 Borland compilers are available, I think. At least some of 'em were at some point. 20:23:51 AnMaster: pretty much nobody does all of C99, gcc implements the more often used bits though 20:23:52 Deewiant, Comeau sounds slightly familiar 20:23:56 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:24:00 ais523, err ICC does it more or less 20:24:11 Comeau has pretty much the best standards support AFAICT 20:24:14 not free though 20:24:17 ah 20:24:17 well 20:24:21 what about Sun CC? 20:24:23 I can get ICC for no cost 20:24:32 I thought it supported C99 nowadays, I might be wrong though 20:24:35 free as in beer, but not open 20:25:05 ais523, and about C99, iirc the ICC frontend is pretty good, oh and GCC are working on it too 20:25:13 GCC is getting better at C99 20:25:19 somewhat evidently: http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/819-5265/bjayy?a=view 20:25:22 part of the problem is that gcc's only about two-thirds of a compiler 20:25:29 http://gcc.gnu.org/c99status.html is looking reasonably good already. 20:25:35 the libraries need to handle it too, also the linker 20:26:04 on windows, the problem is the libraries 20:26:22 MSVCRT doesn't have any C99 stuff 20:26:42 damn complex.h is broken 20:26:45 I wouldn't be surprised if it lacked some obscure part of C90, too :-P 20:26:51 and I was planning a project using complex numbers 20:26:52 oh well 20:26:56 have to use something else 20:27:00 or do the maths myself 20:27:18 of course you might want to check what "broken" actually means 20:27:30 for instance, VLAs are "broken" but most cases probably work fine 20:27:30 Deewiant, and I got syntax errors from Visual Studio C++ Express or whatever it is called 20:27:34 You can also get Borland C++ Compiler 5.5 free-as-in-beer too. Very new; released in the year 2000. 20:27:35 AnMaster: it's not very broken, it probably just doesn't conform with the specs in some cases 20:27:38 was 2005 edition or 2008 edition 20:27:43 Deewiant, and it was a legal C99 think 20:27:45 thing* 20:27:50 fizzie: where? I still have bc4 at home 20:27:55 so it would be an upgrade for me... 20:27:59 ip ips[]; 20:28:01 AnMaster: well, it doesn't support C99 so that's not unexpected. 20:28:02 at end of struct 20:28:06 Deewiant, exactly 20:28:14 www.codegear.com/downloads/free/cppbuilder 20:28:52 I had 4.x from a pcplus magazine cover CD, too. That was some time ago., 20:29:44 fizzie, does it do C99 at all? 20:29:49 and is it for Linux? 20:29:53 I don't have windows any more 20:29:56 AnMaster: no, it's for windows and is C89/C++98 20:29:58 since several months 20:30:02 well then 20:30:09 that's an improvement, bc4 was well before C++98 20:30:11 no point in even trying cfunge under it 20:30:25 That's also the command-line stuff only; I had the IDE parts of bc4 too. 20:30:38 and so its C++ wasn't very standard, I have #ifdefs all over my C++ code that I wrote to compile on both bc4 and g++ 20:30:45 fizzie: yes, I have the IDE parts too 20:30:47 ICC handles the parts of C99 that cfunge use, So does GCC 20:30:55 however there is a known library issue on FreeBSD 20:31:03 FreeBSD lacks sinl() cosl() and such 20:31:05 Comeau is the only compiler that supports the C++98 feature "export templates" 20:31:08 ie, the long double ones 20:31:20 Deewiant, "export templates" what is that? 20:31:39 google it, I can't easily explain it in a few lines 20:31:44 especially if you're unfamiliar with C++ 20:31:50 well I know some basic stuff 20:31:59 oh dear, yes Deewiant's right here 20:32:00 and I know similiar concepts from other languages 20:32:04 templates are bad enough as they are 20:32:05 I have coded in C# 20:32:07 I admit that 20:32:23 ais523, aren't templates like type generic classes or such? 20:32:27 can cause all sorts of weirdness in C++, for instance they can do Turing-complete calculations at compile time 20:32:32 ie List List 20:32:33 and so on 20:32:35 right? 20:32:41 yes, in the simple case 20:32:42 AnMaster: a bit, well a lot really except there are a huge number of edge/corner cases 20:32:49 but also Factorial<10> can give 3628800 20:32:57 Deewiant, ok *that* is strange 20:32:58 as a compile-time constant 20:33:03 oh my 20:33:14 AnMaster: hehe, good luck copying stuff from CCBI when the next version comes out 20:33:20 it uses templates a /LOT/ to generate code 20:33:22 ah well the simple case here, that is about what C#'s generic classes implement 20:33:28 Deewiant, ouch why? 20:33:34 Deewiant, and does D have that really 20:33:36 simpler that way 20:33:40 because they're oh so esoteric 20:33:41 yes, D's templates are more powerful than C++'s 20:33:43 Deewiant, + you can't do that for all fingerprints 20:33:51 what do you mean 20:33:52 Deewiant: no they aren't, C++'s are turing-complete 20:33:56 you don't even know what I do :-P 20:34:13 Deewiant, the stuff I reuse is basically when the fingerprint specs are too vague and you have already implemented it 20:34:18 ais523: well, I suppose you know what I meant 20:34:20 Deewiant, I implemented my SOCK not looking at your 20:34:22 for example 20:34:36 and your NULL I suppose ;-) 20:34:44 I think C# generics have more in common with Java generics than C++ templates. Does C# even do code generation with them? Java ones at least are implemented with that type erasure thing. 20:34:54 Deewiant, and a lot more 20:35:10 Deewiant, issues are stuff like butterfly operator in TOYS 20:35:27 and 3DSP since I don't know matrix manipulation 20:35:42 fizzie: Java templates are an utter mess, they tried to retrofit them to a language that doesn't like them 20:35:45 fizzie, I think they could be done at runtime 20:36:06 and as a result you have a lot of random arbitrary casts and such trying to get things to the right data type 20:36:13 anyway doesn't lisp have some sort of powerful macros? 20:36:14 iirc 20:36:16 Well, they're not even called "templates" there. 20:36:32 maybe you could approximate that using C++ templates! 20:36:32 XD 20:36:34 AnMaster: Lisp macros are like text substitution on steroids 20:36:38 ais523, hah 20:36:45 they're more like #define than template 20:36:47 D's have approximately the same power as those of Lisp 20:36:47 ais523, how does that factorial one work? 20:36:53 but the syntax is of course much uglier 20:36:55 or wait 20:36:56 AnMaster: recursion in the template definition 20:36:59 ah 20:37:01 and they don't currently work on ASTs directly 20:37:03 only strings 20:37:09 I couldn't write it offhand though, I'm not very good at writing C++ templates 20:37:16 which makes it an occasional pain to work with 20:37:24 also another thing with C++ 20:37:31 cout << foo; 20:37:43 what the heck does bitshift have to do with STDOUT? 20:37:44 really 20:37:45 AnMaster: operand overloading 20:37:53 ais523, yes but it is silly operator overloading 20:37:56 that makes no sense 20:37:57 I mean 20:37:57 the answer is "nothing, so we can use the << operator for something else" 20:38:04 ais523, well that is confusing 20:38:05 that was a bad choice 20:38:11 honestly :-P 20:38:24 really operator overloading has it's uses 20:38:38 say you implement a class that does number as fractions of BIGNUMS 20:38:54 AnMaster: that's sane operator overloading, go and talk about it in a sane channel 20:38:56 so you can represent stuff like 1/9 precisely 20:39:04 then you could overload / * and so on 20:39:15 but using << for "write to output" 20:39:16 well 20:39:18 you can overload casts too in C++ 20:39:20 that's just insane 20:39:23 ais523, um huh? 20:39:26 AnMaster: you've actually seen D's templates in CCBI already, mixin (Code!("NULL")) and so forth 20:39:33 like define (int) to mean something different on your class 20:39:37 then you can cast it to int easily 20:39:40 AnMaster: so that you can do (int)bignum 20:39:59 although C++ has 4 different types of cast so you can explain to the compiler why you're doing it 20:40:07 one of which can only be resolved at runtime 20:40:19 hooray for 5 different ways to cast 20:40:27 because of polymorphism, the time an object looks like at compile time is not necessarily the type it actually is 20:40:34 s/time/type/ 20:41:22 If you want to see template nastinessitude, Boost is a nice place to look at; for example Boost.Lambda, http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_36_0/doc/html/lambda.html -- I _think_ the implementation was pretty template-heavy. 20:41:48 It is rather extreme in any case. 20:41:48 Deewiant, ah ok 20:41:50 makes sense 20:42:10 although C++ has 4 different types of cast so you can explain to the compiler why you're doing it 20:42:10 one of which can only be resolved at runtime 20:42:14 4 different ones? 20:42:15 HUH? 20:42:23 I can think of two 20:42:28 AnMaster: const_cast which adds or removes const/volatile 20:42:28 AnMaster: 5 20:42:32 "have say (foo) explicitly" 20:42:32 and 20:42:38 "happens automatically" 20:42:46 static_cast which is for casts that can be calculated at compile time 20:42:47 like double bar = somefloat 20:42:56 AnMaster: the latter, implicit casting, wasn't included 20:42:58 dynamic_cast is the one that only works at runtime 20:42:59 ais523, ah ok, makes sense I guess 20:43:00 AnMaster: with that, it's 6. :-P 20:43:06 I've forgotten what the fourth named one is 20:43:10 ais523, dynamic cast? 20:43:11 huh 20:43:12 reinterpret_cast 20:43:21 Deewiant, and that is? 20:43:26 I can't remember 20:43:29 Deewiant: ah yes, taking the bit pattern of something and interpreting it as a different data type 20:43:30 I only ever use static_cast 20:43:32 With dynamic_cast(bar); you get a NULL out of it if "bar" is not a Foo pointer. Or something like that. 20:43:36 like interpreting a pointer as an int 20:43:41 ais523, ever heard of union 20:43:42 ... 20:43:57 And reinterpret_cast is the one which looks most like the C casts. 20:43:57 AnMaster: want to define a new union type every time you do that? 20:44:01 AnMaster: yes, but that's type-punning and that's wrong, in fact it can be optimised to not work correctly in some cases in C++ I think 20:44:03 hm 20:44:14 ais523, type-punning? 20:44:17 even in C 20:44:25 -!- minirop has joined. 20:44:44 AnMaster: there's an example in the GCC docs, say you have a union of a float and an int, then you assign to the int and return a pointer to the float to the function, then access a float through that pointer 20:44:45 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_punning 20:44:47 ais523, if union breaks the compiler is obviously wrong 20:45:04 it's not necessarily going to have been set from the bits of the int, according to the C standard, it might just read garbage 20:45:07 ais523, well I do use float/int unions 20:45:08 due to the aliasing rules 20:45:15 don't think I return pointers to one of them 20:45:19 AnMaster: well on gcc it only breaks when pointers are involved 20:45:30 ais523, no pointers except to the whole union 20:45:33 Yes; the C standard says that if you write a union using one member, you must not read it through any other member. 20:45:43 For example, reading from a different union member than the last one written invokes undefined behavior, but the effect in practice is usually to permit type punning. 20:45:54 fizzie, it does? 20:45:58 AnMaster: it does. 20:46:02 Well, there was the wikipedia quote. 20:46:04 how the heck can you then store a float in an int 20:46:07 gcc deliberately allows it to work in the situation when you write from one and read from the other without doing anything tricky 20:46:09 AnMaster: you can't. 20:46:15 -_- 20:46:20 AnMaster: read up about the strict aliasing rules some time 20:46:23 Deewiant: you can, memcpy() 20:46:25 implementation-defined, not portable and all that. 20:46:28 ais523, it works under other compilers too 20:46:34 ais523: eh? 20:46:39 ais523, ah good point 20:46:45 Deewiant: you can access both of them via unsigned char pointers 20:46:48 safely 20:46:57 that's actually well-defined? wow. 20:46:58 unsigned char is special with respect to the aliasing rules 20:47:05 it was special-cased in the standard 20:47:07 ah, that rings a bell, yes indeed 20:47:08 ais523, nice, so I just do: (float*)(unsigned char*)&myint? 20:47:27 presumably that should work 20:47:41 I think so, not sure though 20:47:51 float would have to be the same size as int for that to make sense 20:48:00 and the result's going to differ depending on padding, etc 20:48:11 ais523, yes it would be int32_t actually 20:48:34 ais523: I'm not certain the memcpy apporach is safe; surely you can read all the bits of a float with memcpy (or through a unsigned char *), but the bit pattern might be some sort of a trap representation when interpreted as int. You could store the _value_ of the bytes in the integer if it's large enough, of course. 20:48:38 ais523, so you mean you can't implement FPSP, FPDP and 3DSP in any portable way? 20:48:50 course you can, you can memcpy 20:49:08 and emulate 32-bit float yourself on targets which don't have it 20:49:18 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. Sì, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 20:49:22 fizzie: unsigned int isn't allowed to have trap representations 20:49:26 but apart from that you're right 20:49:27 ais523, well actually I would just error out on those 20:49:32 well, uint32_t isn't 20:49:35 I was adding size checks in cmakelists today 20:49:36 unsigned int is 20:49:51 ais523, "trap representations"? 20:49:55 ais523: Okay, I was in fact thinking there might be something special when one of the parties is an integer. 20:50:07 well, if it's signed, you can have problems 20:50:17 a trap representation's a number that causes a program to error if it's used 20:50:19 well it would be in FPSP and FPDP 20:50:24 since funge space is signed 20:50:31 same for 3DSP 20:50:46 0x80000000 is common as a trap representation on 32-bit systems, and is in fact the only value allowed for one in a 32-bit signed int by the standard 20:50:56 even more systems don't have a trap representation at all 20:51:00 though 20:51:00 ais523, anyway how comes no tools "warn portability" checks actually warn about using an union there? 20:51:15 AnMaster: because everyone does it anyway so no sane compiler manufacturer would break it 20:51:19 Still, with a large enough signed integer you could store the value of the float bytes in there. 20:51:21 ais523, ah good 20:51:27 so I'll just depend on it then :) 20:51:35 fizzie: or enough unsigned chars 20:51:55 Yes, but if you only have a single funge-cell to work with. 20:51:57 ais523, um what if I want to use something that happens to be 0x80000000 20:52:26 for example will those systems crash when the unix timestamp hit that value? 20:52:26 -!- moozilla has joined. 20:52:28 AnMaster: the range of int doesn't include that number 20:52:32 on such systems 20:52:34 that's signed int 20:52:41 ais523, so int isn't 32-bit? 20:52:43 so such systems break 1 second earlier than other systmes 20:53:02 AnMaster: yes it is, it's -2^31-1 to +2^31-1 with one trap representation 20:53:10 that's 2^32 possibilities total, so 32 bit 20:53:18 anyway we will all have 64-bit timestamps by then 20:53:29 And they might break harder; a trap representation might cause hard abort()s or something, instead of some sort of wrap-around. 20:53:32 will we? I doubt it. 20:53:35 ais523, so what about those systems that doesn't have a trap? 20:53:41 AnMaster: they roll over, normally 20:53:44 Deewiant, well linux already got it in kernel iirc 20:53:59 but incrementing a signed int past its maximum is undefined behaviour 20:54:06 I wonder what will happen to embedded systems 20:54:09 and in fact gcc takes advantage of this on occasion 20:54:16 Deewiant, good question 20:54:38 ais523, it does? 20:54:57 Deewiant, does Funge-98 say what should happen on funge cell overflow? 20:55:01 undefined I think? 20:55:10 not sure 20:55:27 Deewiant, does CCBI trap SIGPIPE? 20:55:29 I think it doesn't. 20:55:43 AnMaster: it's undefined in C for signed integers, wraparound for unsigned 20:55:43 the bit representation is probably also unspecced 20:55:54 this implies that unsigned can only have trap representations if it also has padding 20:55:54 AnMaster: no, CCBI does nothing with signals. 20:55:58 Deewiant, if it doesn't your SOCK could be non-conforming 20:56:09 Deewiant, since you would crash on a SIGPIPE iirc if not handled 20:56:13 AnMaster: do the SOCK specs say I have to trap SIGPIPE? 20:56:13 instead of reversing 20:56:20 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 20:56:21 Deewiant, they say you have to reverse on error iirc 20:56:24 http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/GE/GE.Basic.1965.102646121.pdf 20:56:31 Deewiant, and you get SIGPIPE on error 20:56:43 AnMaster: that's not an error, that's a signal. :-P 20:56:48 Deewiant, so just ignore SIGPIPE and use the PIPE return value 20:56:55 Deewiant, yes but it is caused by an error 20:56:56 AnMaster: but in all honesty most likely tango does something 20:57:04 ah I guess so 20:57:08 AnMaster: can you whip up a test program? 20:57:40 Deewiant, not really, it happens on network errors iirc 20:58:24 well I can just netcat something and Ctrl-C, or? 20:58:25 actually hm 20:58:50 I always heard it applies to sockets too, however http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIGPIPE seems to say it is pipes only 20:58:58 huh 20:58:58 Deewiant: netcat and ctrl-d probably 20:59:20 ais523, it is for sockets too right? 20:59:37 sigpipe verily applies to sockets as well 20:59:43 ah :) 20:59:46 AnMaster: not sure, I don't know all that much POSIX yet 20:59:58 ais523, you edit on wikipedia right? go fix http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIGPIPE :P 21:00:19 ah yes 21:00:19 AnMaster: anyone can edit Wikipedia 21:00:22 send() can return EPIPE 21:00:32 ais523, except I refuse for religious reasons :P 21:01:01 and your religion doesn't prevent you from inciting others to do so? 21:01:11 Yes, and send() will give you a SIGPIPE if the socket has been shutdown(foo, SHUT_WR)ed, for example. 21:01:11 -!- megatron has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:01:40 I guess it might happen because of some network error too; at least it doesn't seem to be forbidden. 21:01:56 Deewiant, indeed doing that is the command of the higher force 21:02:25 this higher force sounds like an idiot 21:02:31 fizzie, ah yes so if remote end does shutdown() on it? 21:02:39 Deewiant, hehe :D 21:11:42 "one of the changes from C90 to C99 was to remove any restriction on accessing one member of a union when the last store was to a different one" 21:11:42 hm 21:11:47 AnMaster: http://wwwold.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/WG14/www/docs/dr_257.htm 21:11:52 that's to do with type punning in unions 21:11:56 ais523, that was I was reading 21:11:59 and quoting above 21:12:05 basically someone suggested that it should work the way that you suggested 21:12:09 and the standards body said no 21:12:19 but then, they say no to just about every defect report raised 21:12:25 and it costs a lot of money to submit one to them 21:13:27 "one of the changes from C90 to C99 was to remove any restriction on accessing one member of a union when the last store was to a different one" 21:13:35 ais523, what about that then? 21:13:45 -!- LinuS has joined. 21:14:00 from that sentence I can't figure out which direction the change was in 21:20:09 ais523, hm http://wwwold.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/WG14/www/docs/dr_283.htm 21:20:55 AnMaster: well they didn't even answer... 21:21:22 http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n980.htm 21:21:25 there is that too 21:21:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:25:21 ais523, http://wwwold.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/WG14/www/docs/dr_236.htm 21:27:34 Even if C99 had relaxed the aliasing rules re type-punning with unions, I'm still pretty sure that a float interpreted as int might well be that one allowed trap representation of a signed integer. 21:28:24 fizzie, So FPSP and FPDP are basically broken? 21:28:47 fizzie, for me it is just int64_t btw 21:28:51 not int32_t 21:28:55 fizzie: AnMaster: luckily not with IEEE floats, 0x80000000 happens to be an invalid float 21:29:09 ais523, ah which I actually say in README is needed 21:29:29 * cfunge requires IEC 60559 floating-point arithmetic (please see Annex F in 21:29:29 ISO/IEC 9899 for more details.) 21:29:43 AnMaster: why does it require that sort of float arithmetic? 21:30:10 hmm... I'm not sure if 0x00000080 is an invalid float though, what if floats are big-endian and ints are little-endian? 21:30:29 ais523, because it is needed for FPDP and FPSP. You can't be sure it works otherwise 21:30:36 anyway I do double too 21:30:39 in FPDP 21:30:48 union over 2 32-bit ints 21:31:22 AnMaster: what if you're using 64-bit funge? 21:31:44 actually, that could break badly if you're compiling 32-bit on a 64-bit system 21:31:56 because the two ints could quite possibly have 32 bits of padding between them 21:32:19 ais523, hm 21:32:26 well that I know a way to fix 21:32:30 called pointers 21:32:44 in theory they could have 32 bits of padding between them anyway, but compilers tend not to do that without a reason 21:33:18 it should be possible to access an int32_t at an address evenly divisible by sizeof(int32_t) I assume? 21:33:53 it would be rather tricky to handle stuff if that wasn't true 21:34:04 I'm not convinced, probably, but that's asking about alignment and all sorts of weird stuff happens when you think about alignment 21:34:17 maybe someday I'll write a DS9K implementation that aligns all structs to prime numbers 21:34:23 ais523, anyway if you like, rewrite FPSP and FPDP to be strictly conforming then! 21:34:42 memcpy is your friend 21:34:44 if a little slow 21:34:50 ais523, a little slow yes... 21:35:05 ais523, anyway that wouldn't work for double 21:35:07 on int32_t 21:35:15 I can easily imagine a system where int32_t is implemented as a 64-bit quantity with padding; perhaps because the system does not do any <64-bit access and the implementor doesn't want to do any shifting around. 21:35:17 if what you say about padding ever happens 21:35:18 AnMaster: accessing a char is always aligned 21:35:33 so you just memcpy 4 chars at a time 21:35:53 presumably you're assuming 8-bit char, some systems have 9-bit char but I seriously doubt cfunge would run on those the way you're doing things 21:36:15 ais523, well I need to handle FPSP and FPDP 21:36:25 and I need to conform to other parts of the befunge specs 21:36:32 With that int64_t, you could also store the 32-bit float bit-pattern as the value of an integer with something like: float f; int64_t i; ... unsigned char *p = (unsigned char *)&f; i = p[0] | (p[1] << 8) | (p[2] << 16) | (p[3] << 24); 21:36:33 so... 21:36:57 fizzie: yes, that's the sort of thing that can be done correctly 21:37:03 hm 21:37:14 fizzie, USE64 vs. USE32 is decided at compile time 21:37:17 if -fweb and -O3 are on then gcc might not even slow down as a result 21:37:18 for the size of funge cells 21:37:19 Of course that assumes CHAR_BIT == 8, sizeof(float) == 4 and sizeof(int64_t) == large enough. 21:37:25 so that makes everything more complex 21:37:30 and -fweb is implied by -funroll-loops 21:37:51 fizzie: sizeof(int64_t) == 64/CHAR_BIT 21:37:52 always 21:37:56 that's how int64_t is defined 21:38:18 -fweb... oh god 21:38:27 what exactly does -fweb do? 21:38:41 AnMaster: allows the compiler to change which register it's holding a register variable in midfunction 21:39:02 ais523, well I don't declare any variable with register... 21:39:03 it makes it near-impossible to explain to a debugger what's going on, but if you ask for funroll-loops it assumes you don't care much about that anyway 21:39:13 AnMaster: -O3 auto-registers variables when it helps 21:39:20 I think -O2 does too, for that matter 21:39:24 BaKKK 21:39:42 ais523, ggdb4 obviously needs to be invented ;) 21:39:59 ais523: google chrome is out 21:40:01 only for windosw 21:40:02 atm 21:40:05 http://www.google.com/chrome 21:40:09 tusho: does it run in Wine, I wonder? 21:40:13 maybe 21:40:20 their own browser? 21:40:32 can you use Windows Live search in it? XD 21:40:34 * tusho parallelz it up 21:41:23 I guess you should be able to "portably" store a 32-bit IEEE float in a "long", since the value range of long is [-(2^31-1), 2^31-1] and that's enough distinct values to hold all the IEEE floats, which have at least that one illegal value. 21:42:06 well unless anyone complains I won't change current one, unless you can come up with one universal and sane solution :P 21:42:23 I hardly expect anyone to use cfunge on non-x86/x86_64 21:42:35 tusho: I'm not downloading it anyway because I don't like their EULA 21:42:43 and if someone actually hits an issue with it in a non-contrived case then I shall fix it 21:42:48 which is actually potentially enforceable because you have to agree to it pre-download 21:42:49 Given how common the "union of float and int" (or even "union of int and pointer") approaches are, the current way probably works just about anywhere. 21:42:52 however until that happens... 21:43:01 at least it gets around many of the common problems with enforcing EULAs 21:43:09 Don't you want your cfunge to work on a DS9K? :p 21:43:21 fizzie, well tell me what DS9K is 21:43:25 then I may answer 21:43:26 AnMaster: would you consider an automated C to brainfuck translater to be a contrived case 21:43:34 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=DS9K, I wrote that article 21:43:38 ais523, does it do such aligning issues? 21:43:48 have* 21:44:02 fizzie, oh that, and then: yes 21:44:03 AnMaster: no alignment issues on gcc-bf, it aligns to 8 bits 21:44:09 -!- tusho has quit ("And then-"). 21:44:16 the DS9K has all alignment issues possible, except when you want it to 21:44:25 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:44:26 ais523, well I checked it on 32-bit and 64-bit x86 21:44:29 GCC and ICC 21:44:31 -!- tusho has joined. 21:44:39 once clang is ready I plan to make sure it works there too 21:44:44 ais523: 21:44:46 1. it's open source, just remove the eula 21:44:47 currently I can't get clang to build even so ;P 21:44:48 then recompile 21:44:57 ais523: 2. is it the stuff about sending your browser history to google 21:45:00 because that has a setting to turn it off 21:45:09 and yeah, that being default is the most braindeaded thing ever 21:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i just meant, when you start going oracle, you might wanna rethink what it means for something to be "O(n)". 21:45:53 AnMaster: Was cfunge-0.3.0 recent enough to run fungot? 21:45:53 tusho: it's the stuff about if you use any of their services they can change their Ts&Cs without telling you and if you use their services again you're bound by the new Ts&Cs 21:45:53 fizzie: and more plus shipping ( honest). other scheme implementations but guile is my favorite. i.e. you never have to 21:46:03 ais523: dude. everything has that 21:46:07 fizzie, hm... let me check 21:46:08 seriously: everything 21:46:25 tusho: well nowadays I don't agree to EULAs that require that, that's like zombifying yourself in Agora 21:46:39 ais523: every EULA has done that since I can remember. 21:46:40 I don't think I have bzr here. :/ 21:46:42 how am I meant to check the Ts&Cs for scams when they can change while I'm looking 21:46:42 fizzie, no 21:46:46 you can't avoid it. 21:46:50 fizzie, only later ones got SOCK it seems 21:47:01 tusho: you can, most computer games come with a fixed EULA for instance 21:47:05 that doesn't change behind your back 21:47:07 ais523: ok, games 21:47:10 apart from that/ 21:47:14 all online services have it 21:47:15 and most software. 21:47:31 fizzie, so next release (a few weeks I guess, but I never make promises about that) will have it 21:47:38 tusho: well I don't agree to online services with those sorts of rules nowadays, and most software I use doesn't have EULAs at all 21:47:43 fizzie, the current development version is stable enough to run it though 21:47:47 ais523: enjoy your 1999 21:47:48 just 28 different trivial modifications to BSD 21:47:51 fizzie, actually core is pretty much stable 21:48:03 tusho: I'm not on the Internet that much, so why should I rely on online services? 21:48:04 tusho, ais523: about the aliasing issue 21:48:09 berkely sockets 21:48:16 most of the time I spend on the Internet is on IRC and email... 21:48:16 you need to cast there 21:48:30 damn chrome is fast 21:48:33 even in parallels 21:48:34 AnMaster: there's an exception in C99 just so berkeley sockets work, amazingly 21:48:36 INFORMATION SUPER HIGHWAY 21:48:42 ais523, there is? 21:49:05 AnMaster: you can union structs as long as they start with the same members and you only access those members, and the union's visible from the declaration of both structs 21:49:08 tusho, any browser is fast here... 21:49:12 which is a really weird rule when you think about it 21:49:17 AnMaster: but this is superspeed. :) 21:49:29 tusho, would anyone notice? 21:49:33 yes 21:49:40 rendering times have a long way to go 21:49:47 tusho, it is still restricted by network speed for me 21:49:51 8 mbit down 21:50:00 AnMaster: no, you're bound by rendering speed 21:50:02 almost certainly 21:50:05 tusho: I wonder how much they modified WebKit? 21:50:11 ais523: i don't think much 21:50:19 tusho, they based it on webkit? 21:50:22 AnMaster: yes 21:50:24 is it just unmodified Safari or Konqueror stuff, or is it Special Google Nonevil Webkit 21:50:25 it's open source, too 21:50:26 well long live konqueror then 21:50:29 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:50:38 ais523, nonevil? is webkit evil? 21:50:44 AnMaster: konqueror is pretty much terrible. 21:50:58 AnMaster: when Google make a version of something, their version is by definition less evil than the original 21:51:00 tusho, agreed, but not the rendering really, it is a bad browser in other aspects 21:51:15 if Google sold fluffy kittens then your fluffy kittens would be evil by comparison to theirs 21:51:20 ais523: have you slept yet. 21:51:24 tusho: no 21:51:25 ais523, google is evil :P 21:51:33 probably 21:51:39 AnMaster: I may have been sarcastic over my past few comments 21:51:39 google are as evil as any corp except they're cooler so. 21:51:51 tusho, does it support gopher ;) 21:51:59 gimme a gopher link, i'll test. 21:52:08 a sec 21:52:13 tusho: try it on anagolf with the back buttons, that has some weird breakage on Konq 21:52:21 tusho, gopher://inspircd.dyndns.org/ 21:52:28 AnMaster: nope, treats it as a "needs external program" 21:52:35 aww 21:52:41 useless then 21:52:47 long live lynx! 21:52:48 ;) 21:52:59 ais523: works fine 21:53:06 ah, they must have fixed that bug then 21:53:17 Konq is really confusing, all the labels end up on the wrong buttons 21:53:23 or inside text boxees 21:53:24 * tusho sees how fast gmail is 21:53:27 Just for the heck of it, tried to build cfunge development version on this 32-bit ppc OS X thing. Dies when building SOCK; INADDR_NONE not defined. 21:53:47 INADDR_NONE's just a constant 0, isn't it? 21:53:49 this shit owns, even in parallels 21:53:51 and parallels is a dog 21:54:33 ok, google, now you have to release an os x version 21:54:35 immediately. 21:54:36 tusho, chrome doesn't have a search box? 21:54:40 huh 21:54:43 AnMaster: it's the URL bar 21:54:45 AnMaster: the address bar is an everything bar 21:54:51 it's like the awesomebar, except even more awesome. 21:54:54 well maybe I don't want to end up on google every time 21:55:02 AnMaster: you can configure the search engine 21:55:02 maybe I want another search engine 21:55:08 believe it or not 21:55:08 tusho: I'd argue less awesome, in that the awesomebar adjusts itself to websites you visit 21:55:15 ais523: as does this 21:55:19 tusho, actually I prefer firefox 1.5 theme 21:55:22 I prefer that look 21:55:26 I guess few agree 21:55:30 but to me it is great 21:55:47 well, I'm one of the 3 people in the world who actually likes Ubuntu's default colour scheme 21:55:53 ais523: i'm another 21:55:56 ais523: Usually I think it's ((in_addr_t)-1). It's the "error value" from inet_addr, but it's a bit problematic since it's also a valid address. 21:55:58 "By keeping each tab in an isolated "sandbox", we were able to prevent one tab from crashing another" 21:55:59 um 21:56:02 http://www.google.com/chrome/intl/en/why.html?hl=en 21:56:03 wtf 21:56:09 what is wtf about that 21:56:09 any browser should do that 21:56:11 it's perfectly reasonable 21:56:16 AnMaster: they don't 21:56:19 only chrome and IE8 21:56:24 really? 21:56:29 yep 21:56:43 AnMaster: it takes the tab=sandbox idea even further 21:56:47 all JS alerts, etc are contained within it 21:56:51 they're not separate OS processes though? 21:56:53 I expect ff people are working on it 21:57:00 you can't lock up the browser with [[while (true) { alert("lol") }]] 21:57:03 for JS alerts, I think they are 21:57:10 or there's an open bug for that anyway 21:57:40 Heh: "/usr/bin/ld: unknown flag: -O1" 21:57:43 one annoying thing about that site is it seems to do OS detection 21:57:50 so I had to fake my useragent to get the Windows download 21:57:58 ais523: well, i can understand why they did that 21:57:59 does it have support for addons? 21:58:02 like firefox does 21:58:03 otherwise it just links to the Linux deveopment plac 21:58:05 AnMaster: i don't think so not yet 21:58:06 s/$/e/ 21:58:08 but it's open source 21:58:10 = only a matter of time 21:58:12 so you can create googlecustomise for it 21:58:13 wlel 21:58:14 well 21:58:15 and this isn't really a 1.0 release anyway 21:58:28 removing click tracking and ads from google using their browser would rock 21:58:28 ais523: i just used firefox in parallels 21:58:29 :P 21:58:29 :D 21:58:53 tusho: now compare it to the blazingly fast speed of C-INTERCAL's INTERCAL-to-C conversion 21:59:01 ais523: does that render HTML yet? 21:59:03 if not MAKE IT SO 21:59:09 which is so much faster than the gcc step that runs after it there's no point optimising 21:59:09 c2html 21:59:13 pretty sure that exists 21:59:19 or something like it 21:59:20 AnMaster: nothing to do with this 22:00:07 -!- fungOSX has joined. 22:00:19 wow 22:00:20 There's fungot running with cfunge on ppc-32/OS X. 22:00:21 fizzie: it's a nice way to remember that? tell me a good number, though? is it php? peice of cake 22:00:25 best bug ever 22:00:30 i closed a rickroll tab 22:00:31 hi fungOSX 22:00:34 and the music CONTINUED PLAYING 22:00:35 XD 22:00:37 hmm... hi fungot 22:00:38 ais523: did you read my article in the kb has character fragments on it which the computer executes. it's intended to implement a ports driver? my current one, looping back to where/ how to start doesn't seem that bad 22:00:40 fuck! 22:00:41 I don't have the language model files there, so no talking. :p 22:00:43 make it stop! 22:00:47 -!- oklopol has joined. 22:00:54 tusho: permanent rickrolls? 22:01:01 ais523: bet they did it intentionally 22:01:01 is that a new browser feature? 22:01:22 tusho: does it happen for anything but rickrolls? 22:01:24 ^echo optbot 22:01:24 optbot optbot 22:01:25 "The following page(s) have become unresponsive. You can wait for them to become responsive or kill them. 22:01:25 Deewiant: HP 48gII. 22:01:25 [gmail]" 22:01:25 fungot: What's so fucked about it? 22:01:26 optbot: i meant the bored thing :) like forcer and riastradh, and lecture him. i didn't download any software. that's just the highscores :p) with the bad decisions. 22:01:27 fungot: 2(d-1) 22:01:27 optbot: that's rather strange. looks fine to me 22:01:28 How ironic! 22:01:28 fungot: well we have nothing to worry about 22:01:29 optbot: or, as liquidengineer might say, i'm a tcler when being serious. and a bad thing... i learn very much from your solution... thanks :) 22:01:29 fungot: ~exec sys.stdout( [i[1] for i in inspect.getmembers(self.f) if i[0] == "func_code"][0] ) 22:01:30 optbot: i'll try to explain with a srfi? the editors were constrained to quite a few!!! fnord! fnord 22:01:31 fungot: it can't curry a lambda yet 22:01:33 OH MAN 22:01:34 HAHAHA 22:01:38 you know the sad macs? 22:01:42 we get a sad tab. 22:01:50 yes, that was in the cartoon 22:01:51 right down to the pixelly black-and-white 22:01:55 Deewiant: yes 22:01:56 but in person... 22:02:10 the cartoon also said "it really does look like that" OWTTE 22:02:16 tusho: oh dear, I'm starting to like Chrome less and less as time goes on 22:02:22 -!- fungOSX has quit (Client Quit). 22:02:26 ais523: not a fan of the sad mac? 22:02:35 tusho: in a browser? 22:02:43 ais523: it's after a tab has been killed due to crashes 22:02:47 it's just a tab with a sad face 22:02:52 it just happens to be pixelly and black and white 22:02:56 and say "Aw, snap!" 22:02:56 :) 22:03:08 also a lot of this crap is due to me running it under parallels 22:03:11 which is less than perfect. 22:04:16 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 22:06:23 oh man 22:06:26 resizable input widgets 22:06:28 thank GOD 22:06:39 nevermore will i have to deal with shitty tiny text areas 22:07:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:09:27 -!- chromeeeee has joined. 22:09:35 fuck that was fast. 22:09:36 :~ 22:09:37 test 22:09:52 i am typing to you from mibbit running in google chrome running in parallels running in os x 22:09:55 :3 22:10:05 -!- LinuS has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:10:13 hi chromeeeee, presumably you're tusho? 22:10:13 byebye linus 22:10:16 ais523: no 22:10:32 my name is Ritanj 22:10:33 well, same IP, anyway 22:10:39 Ritanj Urban Muller 22:10:43 Ritanj Urban Muller Lite 22:10:58 To be specific, Ritanj Urban Cherry-On-Top Muller Advertising Campaign Lite-Lite 22:11:17 yep, definitely tusho 22:11:21 -!- LinuS has joined. 22:11:23 what. 22:11:25 who is tusho. 22:11:42 chromeeeee: the other person in this channel from the same IP who talks the same way as you 22:11:47 ais523: ah, him 22:11:48 ignore him 22:11:50 he's stupid 22:12:35 yeah he should be banned 22:12:54 lament has already banned him many times because of his outrageous behavior 22:13:09 but his brother is an fbi agent, so there's not much we can do 22:13:45 what with all the drugs and prostitution going on @ the esolang wiki 22:14:01 i am a prostitute and a drug 22:14:02 night 22:14:15 There's fungot running with cfunge on ppc-32/OS X. 22:14:16 cool 22:14:16 AnMaster: ask again?) :) smileys fall from the blue sky, sadly.)) the .x. .y. stuff is code that loops over each ip.... 22:14:19 so it compiled? 22:14:28 :) smileys fall from the blue sky, sadly. 22:14:28 ais523: so what's the optimal compression thingy for bf-sc? :) imagine if the state paid for the fnord health, therefore you might now want him to beg?! 22:14:29 fungot: you are not a prostitute or a drug 22:14:30 chromeeeee: hah perl again 22:14:33 that's poetry 22:14:46 -!- ais523 has changed nick to fungotty. 22:14:50 fungot: hi 22:14:51 fungotty: using esc all the time while awake.' wikipedia 22:14:58 optbot: hi 22:14:59 fungotty: yeah 22:15:00 wow 22:15:01 optbot: one of the copies in http://www.bloodandcoffee.net/ campbell/ proposals/ optional.text. but before css, the scheme model of efficient and concise elegance wins me over the nose every time i see it 22:15:01 fungot: what other things? 22:15:02 optbot: waiting at 4am for code to be portable i assume? and the tools fro eopl on a regular basis is firefox. 22:15:02 fungot: :P 22:15:03 fizzie, did you need to do anything special to make it compile and work? 22:15:03 optbot: ah. of course, impossible in any lower scheme) but it looks like it's fairly simple :p 22:15:03 this is amazing micropoetry 22:15:04 fungot: G! {M[m(_f)(Fib)!<20>(_f)(fib).?]} 22:15:04 optbot: also tell me if this isn't required to actually mutate the original list? ( cadr expr) is sufficient." 22:15:06 fungot: ok 22:15:20 -!- fungotty has changed nick to ais523. 22:15:38 ":) smileys fall from the blue sky, sadly." "using esc all the time while awake.' wikipedia" 22:15:43 two great peieces of art from fungot 22:15:43 chromeeeee: now youve failed 365 times. 22:15:48 three pieces. 22:16:04 fizzie, can you run mycology under cfunge on PPC? 22:16:07 I like fungot's last comment, I thought it was from a human for a moment 22:16:08 ais523: is there an irp interpreter in the mini-funge..." you said did it... :) 22:16:10 fizzie, I'd love to see the results 22:16:19 hmm 22:16:22 mibbit died 22:16:43 tusho: chromeeeee's still responding to pings 22:16:52 butts 22:16:53 ah 22:16:54 now it works 22:17:43 fizzie, well I need to sleep, hope you will tell me tomorrow 22:17:44 night 22:17:56 fungot: forth line of poetry? 22:17:57 chromeeeee: i must depart now. i'll fix it.)) the golden ratio" achieved by the shortest known 99 bottles of beeron the wall! 97 bottles of beer 22:18:10 the longest line yet, and the best 22:18:14 the whole thing is poetry don't you think ais523? 22:18:28 what are all these "'s and ))'s 22:18:28 99 bottles of beeron the wall! 97 bottles of beer 22:18:33 we should have fungot in #irp 22:18:34 it's lamenting on how fast things end (i must depart now) 22:18:34 ais523: not exactly scheme, but i didn't had his code and he hadn't died. he was supposed to combine these so that the left and right chunks, would not treat ( foo fnord fnord) are best at fnord fast code by way of combinatory logic, as opposed to 22:18:39 and yet how they can continue within ourselves 22:18:40 oklopol: fungot isn't very good at punctuation yet 22:18:41 ais523: please tell me :) but i guess i left it around here somewhere. i've only skimmed the paper. the web server has been rebooted though the program doesn't 22:18:41 (i'll fix it.) 22:18:45 and then it has a seperator, )) 22:18:48 as if a buffer 22:18:52 and we're hit by the next piece of text 22:18:57 the golden ratio" 22:18:58 cut off 22:19:00 what could be there? 22:19:03 the point is: we can't know. 22:19:06 things are fleeting. 22:19:12 "achieved by the shortest known 99 bottles of beeron the wall! 97 bottles of beer" 22:19:21 our obsession with achivements, and our illogicalness: 99 to 97? 22:19:24 it goes 99, 98, 97 22:19:27 someone quotedb this whole conversation for about two screensworth, please 22:19:27 but that is mathematics 22:19:35 humans are not based on mathematics. 22:19:36 -!- chromeeeee has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 22:19:40 we are illogical, and fungot help us realise this. 22:19:41 tusho: well nm then but thx for help :) the number tower is one thing which you might want to sync all possible disks and so on. the scheme system has the best design; however, i'm doing it 22:19:57 "well nm then but thx for help :)" the humbleness, denying its own meaning, somehow enrichens the meaning 22:20:06 ironically using net speak 22:21:00 ais523, you do it! 22:21:10 such overwhelming irony 22:21:12 night really! 22:21:15 AnMaster: I have no idea how quotedbs work 22:21:17 and night 22:21:21 ais523: you select text 22:21:24 then you put it in the box 22:21:25 and hit submit 22:21:28 and watch it get rejected. 22:22:03 well let's use ESO's quotedb, then 22:22:10 that way you can choose not to reject it 22:22:10 yes, that bastion of existance 22:22:25 exemplifying the best virtues of existance, apart from existence 22:23:12 Define an existing unicorn to be a unicorn that exists. By definition, an existing unicorn exists. As some kind of unicorn exists, therefore, at least one unicorn exists. 22:23:24 And it's pink and invisible. 22:23:38 (Praise be.) 22:24:08 well in NetHack unicorns can be invisible and still black/grey/white 22:24:51 night AnMaster 22:27:44 ais523: where's the logical fallacy in that? 22:29:27 AnMaster: Here's everything I did to make it compile: http://zem.fi/~fis/cfunge.diff.txt -- this is gcc-4.0.1 so therefore the -Wfoo flag commenting; linker here is not GNU ld but "Apple Computer, Inc. version cctools-622.5.obj~13" so the linker flags had to go; and the SOCK getaddrinfo usage would make that last change unnecessary. 22:30:06 ((in_addr_t)-1) is a wonderful example of C's ambiguity 22:30:13 is that a cast or a subtraction 22:30:32 tusho: depends on the namespace of in_addr_t 22:30:38 ais523: well i know the answer myself, so no need to answer, since you most likely know more about logic than me :P 22:30:38 fizzie, yes FIXME comment is there 22:30:40 ais523: of course 22:30:42 but even so 22:30:51 fizzie, as for linker flags please provide a patch that detects linker 22:30:55 I can fix to detect compiler 22:30:59 but not linker 22:31:09 if you can do that: great! 22:31:11 AnMaster: autotools? 22:31:18 better even: check if flag is supported 22:31:21 by trying to link 22:31:22 AnMaster: And mycology results: http://zem.fi/~fis/mycology.txt 22:31:26 http://code.google.com/chromium/ google chrome source 22:31:33 fizzie, ah no bad 22:32:17 btw iirc INADDR_NONE is POSIX? 22:32:47 I don't have my copy of POSIX here on this laptop right now. 22:33:04 fizzie: what OS is it running? Windows? 22:33:10 ais523: os x. 22:33:29 fizzie, what version of OS X btw? 22:33:39 OSX is POSIX, isn't it 22:33:45 ais523: and certified unix 22:33:53 AnMaster: It might need some other header, then. 22:34:04 AnMaster: INADDR_NONE is mentioned in the inet_addr man page of this thing. 22:34:12 well, Windows didn't fail the UNIX certification tests when it was tested, it's not entirely obvious that it passed either 22:34:22 ais523: How on earth did that work? 22:34:25 I mean ... fork. 22:34:39 #include 22:34:39 #include 22:34:39 #include 22:34:44 tusho: apparently certain things are allowed to be unimplemented 22:34:49 fizzie, those are mentioned in my inet_addr man page 22:34:53 ais523: But fork is a basic pillar of UNIX! 22:35:02 AnMaster: Same here plus . 22:35:02 fizzie, I include all three 22:35:19 fizzie, check if it is in sys/types.h please 22:35:30 tusho: well Windows has CreateProcess, doesn't it? 22:35:33 fizzie, anway I include sys/types.h already too 22:35:36 for other reasons 22:35:36 ais523: nowhere near the same thing! 22:35:36 that can be used to implement fork eventually 22:35:37 so.. 22:35:54 and they'd only have needed an implementation that produced the right answers on the testsuite 22:36:14 It's in , actually; I wonder why it didn't see it. 22:36:50 #include 22:36:50 -!- ais523 has quit ("going home"). 22:36:53 fizzie, that is included 22:36:55 Here is the First Poem of Fungot: 22:36:57 [[:) smileys fall from the blue sky, sadly. 22:36:57 using esc all the time while awake.' wikipedia 22:36:57 now youve failed 365 times. 22:36:57 i must depart now. i'll fix it.)) the golden ratio" achieved by the shortest known 99 bottles of beeron the wall! 97 bottles of beer 22:36:58 well nm then but thx for help :)]] 22:37:02 fizzie, so that makes no sense 22:37:29 AnMaster: Ah, it's in but inside a #ifndef _POSIX_C_SOURCE .. #endif block. 22:37:48 ADD_DEFINITIONS(-D_POSIX_C_SOURCE=200112L -D_XOPEN_SOURCE=600 -D_XOPEN_SOURCE_EXTENDED) 22:37:59 fizzie, unless you messed with that too? 22:38:05 I don't think I did. 22:38:10 fizzie, then why the heck? 22:38:17 and wtf 22:38:22 "#ifndef _POSIX_C_SOURCE"? 22:38:26 you mean "#ifdef"? 22:39:07 No; #ifndef. 22:39:18 fizzie, ok that is strange 22:39:35 fizzie, anyway since I plan to replace that :) 22:39:53 fizzie, oh and you need to come up with a way to find what linker flags are ok 22:40:01 I guess they don't think it's POSIX, and therefore want to avoid introducing that identifier if the program requests POSIX compliance. Can't check the standard right now, though. 22:40:02 I can do it for compiler flags 22:40:03 sure 22:40:14 there is a command for that in cmake 22:40:15 No, I need to sleep. I'll consider that tomorrow. -> 22:40:22 fizzie: 22:40:23 why 22:40:24 do you fins 22:40:24 fizzie, thanks 22:40:25 :) 22:40:26 all use that -> 22:40:28 nobody else does 22:40:42 tusho, interesting observation 22:40:48 tusho: It's a cultural thing. Being a heathen foreigner, you wouldn't understand. 22:40:50 night too 22:40:50 AnMaster: i've observed it before 22:40:53 with oklopol and Deewiant 22:40:54 but now fizzie too! 22:40:58 also, they all use iki.fi 22:41:07 and they all act in just about the same way 22:41:24 tusho, they are the same person 22:41:28 using different nicks 22:41:28 It's because we're all clones. Uh, I mean, nothing. 22:41:33 No, really, sleepery. 22:41:33 AnMaster: no, there are 2 people in finland 22:41:40 i guess they're just really similar. 22:41:45 5 of them are in this channel 22:42:04 tusho, how many are there in UK and Sweden in your opinion? 22:42:14 none 22:42:17 UK is finland 22:42:20 sweden is the UK 22:42:39 tusho, ah that is just a fake 22:42:43 AnMaster: no 22:42:47 you'll understand one day 22:42:49 tusho, the real Sweden is hidden 22:42:53 oh 22:42:57 like the swedish language is a hoax? 22:43:05 tricksy buggers, you swedes 22:43:06 tusho, ah no it actually isn't 22:43:08 let's ban them all 22:43:09 AnMaster: yes it is 22:43:12 you talk telepathically 22:43:20 tusho, not really, we make everyone think it is a hoak 22:43:22 hoax* 22:43:26 wow 22:43:26 so no one tries to learn it 22:43:41 what about hoaxologists 22:43:44 thus we can talk shit about other ppl on IRC 22:43:48 without those understanding 22:43:48 :D 22:43:59 tusho, what are hoaxologists? 22:44:00 noble cause 22:44:06 AnMaster: people who olog hoaxes 22:44:19 tusho, hm I'm not familiar with that 22:44:28 so afraid I can't really answer 22:44:31 AnMaster: they're secret 22:44:34 they're hoaxes, too 22:44:37 tusho, interesting 22:44:58 for example: ais523 is a hoax 22:45:02 tusho, you? 22:45:04 but not a hoax if a hoax hoaxes a olog 22:45:09 AnMaster: i am an olog 22:45:24 well I got to say I can't follow you 22:45:30 you confused me :P 22:45:43 anyway 22:45:47 it shouldn't be a olog 22:45:53 it would be an olog 22:45:57 tusho, ;P 22:46:09 AnMaster: swedes olog hoaxes if they olog hoaxes telepathically with the 5 of the 2 people of sweden in a box that carries the car over there. 22:46:29 tusho, um we hidden the rest 22:46:36 there is a total of five billion 22:46:37 really 22:46:42 just we hide that too 22:46:45 AnMaster: no, no, no, they're like finland 22:46:49 except their finland is not a UK 22:46:50 hoax 22:46:52 ologising 22:46:53 tusho, no that is *another* hoax 22:47:06 AnMaster: no, you're a hoax 22:47:08 this conversation is a hoax 22:47:11 it doesn't really exist. 22:47:13 tusho, we really pulled the best 1 April joke on the world 22:47:13 you must olog it. 22:47:18 except we never told anyone 22:47:21 so they still believe it 22:47:21 ! 22:47:22 :D 22:47:39 tusho, not sure I can olog it... 22:47:40 AnMaster: ah, but the hoax is not believed by the hoaxologists, who olog hoaxes so that finland is ended 22:47:42 I can log it though 22:47:45 just not the o bit 22:47:46 simple, really 22:48:03 oh? 22:48:06 O(log n)? 22:48:09 maybe 22:48:14 no, that has an n 22:48:15 O(log) 22:48:17 the very FUNCTION log 22:48:20 it's first-class 22:48:21 ooh 22:48:24 tusho, hm 22:48:25 and a lambda hoax, passed around by finns 22:48:26 via UK post 22:48:31 in their hoax domes 22:48:37 where they invent poems and irc bots and -> 22:48:59 ok as they said in some Monty Python (dead parrot iirc): This sketch is getting too silly 22:49:06 and really I need to sleep 22:49:24 ^<->v 22:55:44 but...hoax domes 22:56:55 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. Sì, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 23:18:07 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:18:11 Ok. Ok. 23:18:12 Swedes. 23:18:13 Finns. 23:18:14 UKs. 23:18:17 Hoax domes? 23:18:26 Not IRC bots, unsurely. ->? 23:33:38 Who the heck taught me how a rocket works? 23:33:58 Quit parodying my surelies. :-P 23:36:45 -!- minirop has left (?).