←2008-08-27 2008-08-28 2008-08-29→ ↑2008 ↑all
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00:11:46 <tusho> fun fact
00:11:52 <tusho> the writer of the Worse is Better essay doesn't actually agree with it
00:12:02 <Slereah_> This fact is not fun
00:12:04 <tusho> http://dreamsongs.com/Files/worse-is-worse.pdf
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00:41:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | on the other hand i used a trie in my newest interpreter, which is how the subject came up i think.
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01:21:29 <pikhq> "Worse is Better" is little more than old-style UNIX's modus operandi.
01:21:42 <pikhq> It's not necessarily a good way to write software, it's just a way to get it done quick, dirty, and cheap.
01:22:01 <pikhq> Arguably, nobody has figured that out yet.
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01:22:55 <oerjan> optbot!
01:22:56 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | lol.
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02:44:28 <psygnisfive> dogface!
02:44:46 <dogface> Let me guess: :-(
02:44:58 <psygnisfive> :D
02:45:09 <psygnisfive> please? :(
02:45:16 <psygnisfive> if you dont wanna do it you dont have to
02:45:19 <psygnisfive> but you said you would!
02:45:41 <dogface> Well, it hasn't been one of the things on my mind.
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02:46:30 <dogface> I've been thinking about teaching a piano to sing, teaching a chatbot to count IQ points, teaching myself to memorize...
02:47:05 <dogface> Teaching a piano to sing is the most interesting-sounding one because I didn't have to say "teaching".
02:50:08 <oerjan> boring. try teaching a chatbot to sing, teaching a piano to memorize, and teaching yourself to count IQ points
02:50:24 <oerjan> or maybe...
02:51:01 <oerjan> also, the chickens are restless.
02:53:32 <dogface> Chatbots cannot sing, pianos cannot memorize, and me counting IQ points would just be silly.
02:54:11 <dogface> Much more interesting: teach a chatbot to memorize, myself to sing, and a piano to count IQ points. All very easy, except that last one.
02:54:15 <oerjan> WHOOSH!!!
02:54:35 <oerjan> that _would_ depend btw.
02:54:53 <oerjan> you could be tone deaf.
02:55:43 <psygnisfive> x.x
02:56:44 <dogface> I have absolute pitch but unfortunately am kind of tone deaf, yes.
02:56:59 <dogface> Well, maybe not.
02:57:26 <dogface> Yeah, never mind. I can sing the way my brother cannot.
03:01:39 <psygnisfive> cmon dogface please? :O
03:01:49 <dogface> oerjan, will you do it?
03:01:56 <dogface> Or I could have Aftran do it.
03:05:39 <oerjan> huh what?
03:10:32 <dogface> oerjan, will you make a grammar (BNF-like, maybe) of English syntax so psygnisfive will be appeased?
03:10:49 <psygnisfive> this is totally not the point, dogface! >_<
03:10:52 <psygnisfive> you're ruining it!
03:11:01 <dogface> I am?
03:11:04 <psygnisfive> yes
03:11:21 <dogface> What's the point, then? To compare oklopol's idea of English syntax to mine?
03:11:24 <psygnisfive> by even suggesting a BNF like grammar you've tainted oerjan
03:11:28 <dogface> Oh.
03:11:46 <dogface> oklopol, make it BNF-like, maybe.
03:11:50 <dogface> Satisfied? :-P
03:11:56 <psygnisfive> now you've tainted oklopol!!
03:12:11 <dogface> Now both the control and the... non-control are equally tainted again.
03:12:19 <psygnisfive> the point was that no assumptions about the grammar should be introduced, it can take whatever form you need
03:12:25 <psygnisfive> i already have a control
03:12:37 <psygnisfive> :P
03:12:46 <psygnisfive> tho oklopol's already using BNF so it doesnt matter
03:13:03 <oerjan> the grammar is of a transcendent essence - incomprehensible by human reason
03:13:12 <psygnisfive> lol
03:13:15 <oerjan> AUM
03:13:16 <dogface> BNF, really?
03:13:19 <psygnisfive> yeah
03:13:26 <psygnisfive> noone wants to participate! :(
03:13:45 <dogface> It's rather difficult.
03:13:51 <psygnisfive> its not
03:13:54 <psygnisfive> you just arent trying :(
03:14:00 <dogface> Why do you want this done, by the way?
03:14:23 <psygnisfive> i want to see what sort of ideas non-linguists come up with
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03:14:37 <dogface> Aftran's not qualified, then.
03:14:45 <Sgeo> dogface, for what?
03:14:56 <psygnisfive> sort of a metaexperiment to see if the current body of linguistics research is too tradition steeped or not
03:14:58 <dogface> <psygnisfive> i want to see what sort of ideas non-linguists come up with
03:15:08 * dogface ponders
03:15:08 <Sgeo> Oh
03:15:11 <Sgeo> =P
03:15:41 <psygnisfive> i mean, you guys are already tainted in your knowledge of formal grammars
03:16:08 <psygnisfive> ive already seen some distinctly mainline linguistics type ideas from you guys
03:16:17 <dogface> Well, I'd make it mostly BNF, except that conjunction and matching of pronouns make it wacko.
03:16:25 <psygnisfive> whereas this other person im sort of poking and prodding is coming up with less mainstream ideas
03:16:42 <psygnisfive> dogface: but thats the fun part! itll be very difficult for you to make it BNF
03:17:01 <psygnisfive> there are numerous apparently non-BNF behaviors
03:17:15 <psygnisfive> and no clear CFG can account for the data
03:17:31 <psygnisfive> thats why its so interesting
03:17:35 <dogface> <X> ::= <X> "and" <X>, where X is any type of phrase at all.
03:17:50 <psygnisfive> yes, thats a trivial CFG rule
03:17:56 <psygnisfive> but there are other things that aren't so trivial
03:18:00 <psygnisfive> so many things
03:18:19 <dogface> "Where" is a phrase. "Is" is a phrase. "Any" is a phrase. "Type" is a phrase. "Of" is a phrase. "Phrase" is a phrase. "At" is a phrase. "All" is a phrase.
03:18:41 <psygnisfive> :P
03:18:44 <psygnisfive> dont make me smack you
03:18:47 <dogface> I think calculus is necessary.
03:18:51 <psygnisfive> lol
03:18:53 <psygnisfive> ::smack::
03:19:01 <dogface> Hey, I'm being serious, here. :-)
03:19:13 <dogface> Calculus is useful in Haskell programming, after all.
03:20:40 <dogface> Differentiate <X> ::= <X> "and" <X>, and you get 1 ::= <X> "and" 1 | 1 "and" <X>.
03:21:31 <dogface> I'm sure that's useful somehow.
03:21:57 <psygnisfive> no, its not :P
03:22:29 <dogface> How dare you deny the utility of things I say I'm sure are useful.
03:22:43 <psygnisfive> cmon, you have the sentences
03:22:43 <dogface> Though I only say I'm sure when I'm not sure, as you're all aware.
03:22:47 <psygnisfive> i wanna see your ideas
03:22:54 <psygnisfive> you're not even trying you're just being random :(
03:22:59 <dogface> I'm pondering how to apply this calculus stuff to it.
03:23:00 <psygnisfive> if you dont wanna do it just say so
03:23:11 <psygnisfive> but dont say yes and then not do it
03:23:50 <dogface> I don't want you to require me to do it.
03:24:02 <psygnisfive> you're not required, but you said you would
03:24:09 <psygnisfive> which means i expect you to do it :P
03:24:26 <psygnisfive> otherwise you're a liar! :(
03:24:27 <dogface> England requires that every man will do his duty?
03:53:30 <psygnisfive> cmon dogface
03:53:36 <psygnisfive> if you dont want to do it, just say so
03:53:51 <dogface> I don't want you to expect me to do it.
03:54:04 <psygnisfive> i expect you to do it only if you say you'll do it.
03:54:59 <dogface> I don't say I'll do it, then.
03:55:36 <psygnisfive> :(
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08:00:08 <fizzie> Added yet another channel to the fungot mix, but as it has only 12M of logs (compared to 35M of #esoteric and 72M of #scheme) it probably won't show much.
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08:02:01 <fizzie> Oh, orwell.freenode.net had bumped fungot off, also.
08:02:02 <fungot> fizzie: no fnord headers like in c++... so you get the idea. i have a graph of the number of possible matches excluded at each node, and you wanted to do
08:03:19 <fizzie> If fungot ends up speaking Finnish a bit, it's because of that third channel. I'm not certain it has been quite unilingual all the time.
08:03:20 <fungot> fizzie: scheme48 is good, ffi may not matter.' that was based on... xml! i like my new cat moving in here. completely different thing than replacing, namely, the word itself does not specify which functions are not first class, yes, might well be faster than others i guess
08:03:52 <fizzie> That's one messed-up bot right there.
08:25:13 <oklopol> so's your cat
08:25:52 <oklopol> psygnisfive: can you share with me the non-mainstream ideas?
08:26:00 <fizzie> I think it was someone else's cat; we didn't get a cat until later.
08:26:08 <oklopol> or with us, same thing from my perspective ofc
08:26:14 <psygnisfive> i cant share with you anything
08:26:20 <psygnisfive> it would ruin the experiment oklopol
08:26:23 <oklopol> oh
08:26:25 <oklopol> right :)
08:26:51 <psygnisfive> i wish you'd fuckin get online earlier
08:26:56 <oklopol> :P
08:26:57 <psygnisfive> because im going to bed now :(
08:27:00 <oklopol> hehe
08:27:06 <psygnisfive> ::hug:: just message me any ideas youve had
08:27:10 <psygnisfive> or email me
08:27:14 <psygnisfive> or aim
08:27:18 <psygnisfive> im psygnisfive on aim
08:27:20 <oklopol> yeah sure
08:27:23 <psygnisfive> psygnisfive@yahoo.com for email
08:27:32 <oklopol> also i'm doing some night watchmanship this weekend
08:27:44 <oklopol> so i might have some nightly time to waste for you
08:27:49 <psygnisfive> cool.
08:27:50 <psygnisfive> night dude
08:27:53 <psygnisfive> ::bite::
08:27:54 <oklopol> nights
08:28:57 <oklopol> perhaps i should ignore all messages with ::xx::'s from psygnisfive, would make our conversations a whole lot less gay :P
08:29:14 <psygnisfive> ::fuck::
08:29:15 <psygnisfive> ;O
08:29:24 <psygnisfive> ::gayrapesex::
08:29:29 <oklopol> don't worry, i don't ignore
08:29:40 <psygnisfive> ;)
08:29:40 <oklopol> i find it scary
08:29:41 <psygnisfive> night
08:29:44 <lament> fags
08:30:02 <psygnisfive> ;)
08:30:02 <oklopol> night; ignoring is like pressing the "i never want to do the update" button when you don't wanna do an update
08:30:05 <psygnisfive> you know you love it lament
08:30:10 <psygnisfive> ::kisses lament goodnight::
08:30:10 <oklopol> what if i wanna do it in 10 years?
08:30:25 <lament> a goodnight french kiss eh
08:30:27 <oklopol> thus, i must press "ask again later".
08:30:53 <lament> you can always unignore in 10 years
08:31:11 <oklopol> well true, i guess that's a bit different
08:31:22 <psygnisfive> NIGHT GUISE
08:31:45 <oklopol> perhaps i just wanna feel loved or something, like, subconsciously
08:31:54 <oklopol> night you silly goose
08:32:14 <psygnisfive> ::loves oklopol subconciously::
08:33:18 <oklopol> can't you sleep unless we shut up?
08:33:30 <oklopol> i can't, but i'm a fucking retard
08:33:39 <psygnisfive> i cant D:
08:33:42 <oklopol> hehe
08:33:47 <psygnisfive> ive got a monitor bolted over my eyes
08:33:53 <oklopol> well, i'm off to university in a few minutes
08:33:56 <psygnisfive> if you dont stop talking i see the text move!
08:34:35 <fizzie> fungot: Quick, say something before psygnisfive falls asleep.
08:34:36 <fungot> fizzie: fnord windows. that's always tricky. i could actually make progress on my bf 2 glypho compiler last night :) fnord/ fnord/ fnord generic dispatch system, which is an improvement of the scheme community is clearly fragmented with respect to srfi mailing lists... it had to do our project things occasionally.
08:34:41 <psygnisfive> X_X
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08:35:06 <oklopol> what's this thing fungot has for fnords
08:35:07 <fungot> oklopol: it gives the rest to be a priest; while doing that, but it ends up being even more annoying. the ones which come with perl, sometimes without so much as readability
08:35:10 <oklopol> and what are fnords
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08:35:47 <fizzie> oklopol: Didn't I mention? All out-of-vocabulary words (words that occurred only once in the logs) get mapped to token 0 ('UNK') which fungot expands as "fnord".
08:35:47 <fungot> fizzie: i also have mit-scheme installed, although i don't claim t is useful yet.
08:35:57 <oklopol> after fjord, they just started making up impossible-to-pronounce words without meaning, methinks
08:36:10 <oklopol> oh
08:36:14 <fizzie> And fnord is a Discordianism term.
08:36:29 <fizzie> fungot: Uh, how did you manage to install mit-scheme in your little chroot jail?
08:36:30 <fungot> fizzie: this just has ' smbsh' but it's still not easy yet though, unless you'd call scheme's lambda procedure calls ' scheme's object system. ( by ' fusably atomically,' i mean as a complement, not a complete object serialization specification; it's pretty useless without it. :p it was supposed to be
08:36:31 <oklopol> i don't know what that means
08:36:38 <lament> FNORD
08:36:53 <fizzie> Wikipedia "Fnord", then; the article seems accurate enough.
08:36:58 <oklopol> NEVER
08:37:00 <oklopol> ->
08:37:10 <fizzie> There's also a web server, but that's not why I picked it.
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10:51:31 <Mony> bye
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12:41:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Why is he so racist against ... uh ... pig ... penises ....
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14:17:25 * SimonRC is suffering from internet fail, and will remain gone.
14:21:13 <oklopol> SimonRC: what does that mean?
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15:19:11 <AnMaster> optbot!
15:19:12 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | imagine that.
15:29:35 <tusho> heh
15:32:20 <oklopol> :P
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15:44:17 <ais523> hi tusho
15:45:27 <tusho> hi ais523 .
15:49:12 <Slereah_> http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/fetishes.png
15:49:17 <Slereah_> This is relevant to my interests.
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16:24:49 <ais523> hi tusho_
16:25:00 <tusho_> fucking internet
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16:25:56 <Mony> bye
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17:29:21 <psygnisfive> blargle!
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18:38:15 <ais523> wb ais523
18:38:32 <Deewiant> optbot!
18:38:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | could be a leak in my code too, forgetting to clear the results at some point..
18:41:38 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | found the problem.07:40:00.
18:46:51 <Deewiant> optbot!
18:46:51 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | conkeror was much less than i expected.
18:47:29 <ais523> heh, optbot set the topic three times but was only shouted at twice
18:47:29 <optbot> ais523: you can't find the shortest program in the general case
18:48:12 <Deewiant> it either does it randomly or somebody knows how to tell it via query
18:48:24 <ais523> Deewiant: it does it every six hours, I think
18:48:31 <ais523> it was just fortuitous timing I expect
18:48:41 <ais523> oh, and hi fungot
18:48:42 <fungot> ais523: that it provides a structured combinator-based interface as well. it doesn't happen by default, doesn't like the fnord approach. 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
18:48:56 <ais523> fungot: what's with all the zeros?
18:48:57 <fungot> ais523: it's a little sampler of every tract. how come my dr scheme does not work here... unbound variable: the. notation ( can't find that thingie with google/ googlism. i'll gripe if it's an object with a finalizer needs to be
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18:49:20 * ais523 likes it
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21:01:10 <fizzie> fungot: Where did you get those zeros?
21:01:10 <fungot> fizzie: i am a toy by both definitions expressions if used in excess where unnecessary, perhaps. not that i'd want to use multiple shifts resets in one place
21:01:28 <fizzie> fungot: Yes, you are a toy.
21:01:28 <ais523> fizzie: I assume fungot got them in something posted to a channel
21:01:29 <fungot> fizzie: homo sapiens, last i checked
21:01:29 <fungot> ais523: you're lucky, break everything! i mean the set of srfis array slices subarray copying) 2.) define a condition type is created
21:01:46 <ais523> fizzie: it actually gave you an intelligible and relevant reply...
21:02:46 <fizzie> Yes, that's a surprise.
21:03:19 <ais523> optbot does that a lot more often
21:03:19 <optbot> ais523: yes
21:03:22 <ais523> see what I mean?
21:03:42 <fizzie> Yes, I know. optbot's brain works better, fungot's a bit addled.
21:03:43 <optbot> fizzie: seems simple
21:03:43 <fungot> fizzie: it's not a running computation, since there are bfi programs it should be spelled " unnescessary". every recursive call to fact occurs in the _argument_ position for the 70% of the time at some point, sharing might prove useful
21:04:11 <ais523> what fungot says normally almost makes sense without quite getting there
21:04:12 <fungot> ais523: you got cut off at ' because there is nothing implicit. to we pass a pair around, and they can tinker with it. i have a working password to the unix shell and file i/ o with monads!!! chicken installs an scheme-r5rs in /usr/ sbin/ named doesn't segfault but waits infinitely at fnord,
21:05:25 <fizzie> I don't think it's a good idea to install scheme-r5rs in /usr/sbin/named.
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21:16:02 <ais523> fizzie: yep, probably not
21:16:13 <ais523> although it probably wouldn't bork a system, it would just be utterly pointless
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22:15:47 <ais523> I just saw this on comp.lang.c:
22:15:50 <ais523> Writing a conforming C
22:15:50 <ais523> > implementation, even one that's not useful, is a sufficiently large
22:15:50 <ais523> > task that nobody has the time to do it as a joke.
22:16:01 <ais523> that just reminded me of #esoteric so much
22:16:28 <Slereah_> Heh.
22:17:02 <ais523> well, arguably I'm doing something like that, but it's based on gcc and so doesn't count
22:17:15 <ais523> gcc for the conformance with C, brainfuck for the weirdness
22:21:02 <Slereah_> Gentlemen.
22:21:06 <Slereah_> I'm asking for input
22:21:16 <Slereah_> What Linux distro would you advise?
22:21:38 <Slereah_> One that is simple to handle for a stupid man like me
22:22:05 <ais523> Slereah_: Ubuntu if you don't want to do much learning of Linux
22:22:46 <lament> ubuntu but remember to install real vim!
22:23:03 <fizzie> Ubuntu is not bad.
22:23:07 <ais523> lament: well it doesn't have full-featured vim or any emacs by default, but installing new programs is trivial
22:23:20 <ais523> Applications | Add/Remove via the GUI, or sudo apt-get via the command line
22:23:23 <ais523> depending on which you prefer to use
22:23:34 <Slereah_> I had Kubuntu back then
22:23:45 <Slereah_> What's the differences between the different Ubuntus?
22:23:48 <lament> i got very confused for a while because 'vim' launches something that looks exactly like vim but doesn't understand anything
22:23:50 <ais523> Slereah_: window manager
22:24:01 <ais523> Ubuntu uses Gnome, Kubuntu uses KDE
22:24:09 <fizzie> They're call desktop environments when there's more stuff than just your basic wm. :p
22:24:15 <ais523> fizzie: ok
22:24:19 <fizzie> And Xubuntu does xfce. Those are I guess the most mainstream ones.
22:24:29 <ais523> Slereah_: you can install both at once if you like, I have both Ubuntu and Kubuntu mixed on here
22:24:45 <ais523> and can log into either Gnome or KDE, although I usually use Gnome
22:24:48 <Slereah_> I guess I'll try Ubuntu.
22:24:49 <ais523> this is a KDE IRC client, though
22:25:50 <fizzie> I've got evilwm in this OS X laptop, and awesome as the wm for my workstation, so I'm probably not the best person to ask for advice in this regard.
22:26:39 <fizzie> fungot, optbot: What Linux distributions do you guys like?
22:26:40 <optbot> fizzie: I don't know about the system egobot needs
22:26:40 <fungot> fizzie: the lang i described above? data module is discussed in sicp. i don't really know about anyone's schedule here.
22:27:19 <fizzie> optbot: Uh, I don't think running egobot is that much of a criterion here.
22:27:20 <optbot> fizzie: just a moment...
22:30:59 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: idkfa
22:30:59 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: happens often :\
22:31:48 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: M-theory
22:31:48 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: Klingon?
22:31:58 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: Borg
22:31:59 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: the design philosophy is creating a language that can be compiled pretty easily and that is designed so that programming errors are either hard to make or easy for the compiler to catch
22:33:09 <lament> optbot: aoeu
22:33:10 <optbot> lament: ok
22:33:50 <ais523> fungot: hi
22:33:51 <fungot> ais523: that is cfunge output fail in firefox is also a popular motivational speaker. get my opinion without explanation as i'm getting shiny after chandler comment :)
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23:00:08 <ais523> fungot: :)
23:00:09 <fungot> ais523: fnord/ wine/ wine/ fnord/ thue/ doc/ mzc/ mzc-z-h-2.htmlnode_chap_2 gc while the program is?, which takes considerable time from scheme48 hacking.
23:00:25 <ais523> fungot: that's some directory path...
23:00:26 <fungot> ais523: since it isn't supported... in non-r5rs systems, then they're all subject to godel numbering, which means morning, or typically good morning, catfive.
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23:11:54 <ais523> o
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