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10:21:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I very much doubt that LLVMDC can currently compile Tango, hence you can't compile CCBI with it either
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11:36:07 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that is, I haven't tried it myself but from what I gather it's not at all production-ready
11:42:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it seems to be so indeed
11:44:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what should a funge interpreter do on an empty input file?
11:44:37 <AnMaster> is it allowed to error out on it?
11:45:29 <Deewiant> why not... unless you think an IP is going to jump from the future and start editing it, or a concurrent IP running in another file will ;-P
11:46:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok thanks, it means I can simplify loading from file code a lot by simply mmap()ing the file and then reading from that
11:46:32 <tusho> I have a new slogan. CFUNGE: Who cares, it's fast
11:46:47 <Deewiant> it's equivalent to a C executable erroring out given the code "main() { for (;;); }"
11:47:27 <tusho> ERROR: INFINITE LOOP DETECTED
11:47:30 <tusho> PROGRAM DOES NOT HALT
11:47:34 <tusho> COMPILATION TERMINATED.
11:52:35 <AnMaster> <tusho> I have a new slogan. CFUNGE: Who cares, it's fast
11:52:46 <AnMaster> it is about cleaning up the IO stuff
11:53:00 <tusho> CFUNGE: Who cares, the code is modular and pretty
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14:29:38 <AnMaster> tusho, as a result of this change to mmap() there is no more posix_* functions I think
14:29:52 <AnMaster> this will make you complain less I hope
14:29:55 <tusho> You can still handle empty files.
14:30:18 <AnMaster> tusho, yes just need to create an empty funge-space
14:30:28 <AnMaster> which is what I'm coding right now
14:30:38 <AnMaster> tusho, mmap() doesn't work on files of size == 0
14:30:40 <tusho> Just special-case it.
14:30:53 <AnMaster> tusho, so yes I will special case it indeed
14:31:05 <AnMaster> an empty file == empty funge space
14:31:16 <tusho> why even bother with fungespace
14:31:19 <tusho> just loop forever.
14:32:04 <AnMaster> tusho, um what? funge space is created empty....
14:32:19 <AnMaster> and an empty file would load nothing into it
14:32:26 <tusho> AnMaster: if (filesz == 0) {for (;;); }
14:32:38 <AnMaster> tusho, doesn't work as you can load files with i
14:32:55 <tusho> if (filetoloadsz == 0) { for (;;); }
14:34:49 <AnMaster> I prefer short variable names that are still readable :P
14:34:57 <AnMaster> len is such a one, it means length
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15:00:19 <AnMaster> ais523, I changed my file loading to use mmap() now in order to simplify parser and to get rid of the posix_fadvise stuff, I guess mmap() don't cause any problems for C-INTERCAL?
15:00:54 <ais523> in fact I don't think you could do anything to cause problems unless either you do stack-smashing or something similar, or you fundamentally change the way the stack behaves (such as by using pthreads)
15:01:29 <AnMaster> ais523, well I do compile with stack smash protection on my system
15:01:45 <ais523> I'm not actually doing any stack-smashing
15:02:02 <ais523> but I expect the bit of the stack I use to be untouched by whatever you're doing
15:02:16 <ais523> which it will be if the stack acts as a stack
15:02:35 <ais523> and you don't, say, return from functions more often than you call them, which probably isn't even possible in C
15:03:35 <ais523> yes, I use it quite a bit
15:03:46 <ais523> but that's returning /less/ often than you call the functions...
15:04:13 <ais523> it's because I was messing around with longjmp that AnMaster's asking all sorts of questions about what will cause bad interactions
15:04:33 <ais523> but I think I've got it pretty watertight now against anything e might try short of forking and returning twice, or using pthreads
15:04:49 <pikhq> Well, given some inline assembly, one could probably screw with the stack so that you can keep ret'ing forever...
15:05:56 <pikhq> ret_add: stick ret_add on the stack. return.
15:06:21 <ais523> strangely that wouldn't be a problem
15:06:32 <ais523> the sort of thing that would be would be taking a snapshot of the stack continuation-style and using it later
15:06:57 <pikhq> Isn't that what longjmp *does*?
15:07:10 <ais523> longjmp only records the location on the stack
15:07:15 <pikhq> Sorry; it's been a while since I've looked at longjmp.
15:07:24 <ais523> and longjmp pops the right number of elements to get down to it
15:07:35 <ais523> so it's just like RESUME with an argument greater than 1 in INTERCAL
15:07:44 <ais523> except that in INTERCAL you have to calculate the argument yourself
15:07:49 <ais523> and in C the runtime calculates it for you
15:09:22 * pikhq considers longjmp and setjmp a form of arcane magic.
15:09:41 <pikhq> One which I simply *must* find an excuse to use in my 'intro to CS' cflass.
15:10:05 <ais523> pikhq: I have an IOCCC entry ready for the next time it's open
15:10:09 <ais523> which uses stack smashing to store data
15:10:19 <ais523> I'd actually like to test it on AnMaster's stack-smash-protected system
15:10:30 <ais523> because I think that unlike other stack smashing methods it should be pretty portable
15:10:48 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bubble-indent.c <- My attempt at obfuscated C code.
15:10:49 <ais523> basically it should work on anything that uses an array-like rather than linked-list-like structure as the variable stack
15:11:13 <pikhq> Oh; I think I've paraded that about before.
15:11:18 <ais523> incredibly readable, also you're using a GNU-specific extension
15:11:32 <ais523> let me try to figure out what the algorithm does
15:11:33 <pikhq> Well aware that I'm using a GNU-specific extension.
15:11:43 <ais523> because you can still have an obfuscated algorithm in a readable program
15:11:44 <pikhq> Quite intentional.
15:12:13 <pikhq> In the IOCCC, you get extra points for having well-formatted code that people still can't figure out. ;p
15:12:24 <ais523> well, mine /is/ well-formatted
15:12:26 <ais523> it's indented correctly
15:12:39 <ais523> only it looked a bit long, so I wrote it in two columns and indented each of those correctly
15:13:11 <pikhq> Well, yeah. Your obfuscation comes from it storing data via stack smashing, not from exploiting the insanities of C's syntax.
15:13:23 <ais523> no, it exploits the insanities of C's syntax too
15:13:44 <ais523> I'll show you somehow if you promise to keep it secret, I wouldn't keep it secret normally but you can be disqualified from the IOCCC for publishing an entry early
15:13:52 <ais523> also I can paste my entry last year
15:13:57 <ais523> which didn't use stack-smashing
15:14:35 * ais523 waits for pastebin.ca to load
15:15:09 <pikhq> Lemme know when or if you've figured out my C code there.
15:15:30 <ais523> bubble sort of its command line argument?
15:15:50 <ais523> must be, I just noticed the file name
15:15:56 <pikhq> Dammit; you figured it out.
15:16:08 <pikhq> That was fun to write, at least.
15:16:12 <ais523> that was a guess to start with on the basis that you were comparing consecutive string elements and going back to the start if they were equal
15:16:24 <ais523> s/equal/different in the wrong way/
15:16:51 <pikhq> Actually, comparing characters in argv[1].
15:17:18 <ais523> the first command line argument
15:18:12 <Deewiant> ah, statics are initialized to zero
15:18:44 <ais523> http://rafb.net/p/iaUKUX21.html
15:18:47 <ais523> that's last year's entry
15:18:55 <ais523> it seems to have screwed the whitespace up slightly, but oh well
15:19:10 <ais523> (I encoded hidden info in the whitespace, so it's relevant...)
15:19:24 <ais523> that needs a command-line define to work
15:19:43 <ais523> gcc '-D_(a,b,_,d,e)=while(a(d(e(_?putchar(b):(c=getchar())<0?b:c))))' -Dunsigned= -funsigned-char -ansi
15:19:53 <ais523> plus the filename of course
15:19:59 <ais523> but it's not a ridiculously long define
15:20:18 <ais523> Deewiant: that's a neat trick, I absolutely need argv to be pointer to pointer to unsigned char
15:20:26 <ais523> so I write unsigned char** as its data type
15:20:45 <ais523> but that violates the standard, so when using gcc I define the unsigned away and use -funsigned-char to add it implicitly...
15:20:49 <pikhq> Is that a Brainfuck implementation?
15:21:15 <ais523> also the block of BF-like code near the start is not all Brainfuck
15:21:28 <ais523> the rest is just junk that's there to make it hard to read
15:21:57 <Deewiant> hm, the rafb syntax highlighter doesn't catch that it's a comment
15:22:16 <ais523> well, yes, the / and the * of the start-comment marker are on different lines
15:22:20 <pikhq> Deewiant: That's because it uses a naive parser, I bet.
15:22:22 <ais523> very few syntax highlighters catch that
15:22:50 <pikhq> ais523: Nice work on the comment insanity.
15:23:03 <ais523> pikhq: strangely, that's the only way I could do it
15:23:08 <pikhq> I *still* don't get it, but I can get that part, at least.
15:23:11 <ais523> you see, the program's a C/Perl/Brainfuck polyglot
15:23:24 <ais523> and /* is inevitably a syntax error at the start of a Perl program
15:23:27 <pikhq> That explains a lot.
15:24:04 <ais523> the Perl and the BF programs just discover yet more programs hidden in the original
15:24:14 <ais523> #; '/\' <<; /)|}.${.(/=)_$(
15:24:18 <ais523> that line should give something else away
15:24:31 <ais523> and also explain why the first line is blank
15:24:39 <ais523> nope, not even shell looks like that
15:24:43 <ais523> it's Perl, but written backwards
15:24:48 <pikhq> You've not seen my shell.
15:25:13 <ais523> pikhq: I'd love to see a shell which actually understands syntax like that
15:25:16 <ais523> and isn't just backwards Perl
15:25:40 <pikhq> Though I bet there's a way to get Zsh to handle that syntax.
15:26:02 <ais523> I'm pretty sure there's a way to get bash to /tab-complete/ that syntax
15:26:07 <ais523> although why you'd want it to is beyond me
15:26:44 <ais523> anyway, it isn't a "naive" implementation of Brainfuck
15:26:48 <pikhq> Zsh's tab completion is much better than Bash's.
15:26:53 <ais523> because it handles the loops somewhat funkily
15:27:02 <ais523> pikhq: I know, which is strange as Bash's is Turing-complete
15:27:17 <ais523> Deewiant: it's written in bash
15:27:22 <ais523> so not particularly surprising
15:27:23 <pikhq> Zsh's is a superset, IIRC.
15:28:33 <pikhq> Yup; zsh's completion bits are generally zsh functions.
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15:46:33 <AnMaster> <ais523> I'd actually like to test it on AnMaster's stack-smash-protected system <-- hm?
15:46:45 <ais523> AnMaster: my stack-smashing IOCCC entry
15:46:55 <ais523> I can try it over here
15:47:08 <AnMaster> 4.2 or later (or 4.1 with distro-patched gcc)
15:47:29 <AnMaster> gentoo has the patch back ported to 4.1, but official gcc only got it in 4.2 iirc
15:48:14 <AnMaster> ais523, oh btw does C-INTERCAL build using LLVM?
15:48:22 <AnMaster> cfunge builds fine with llvm-gcc
15:48:37 <AnMaster> but it is really a pain to setup, so I wouldn't even try that myself on ick
15:48:42 <ais523> AnMaster: I've never tried
15:49:38 <AnMaster> ais523, reading POSIX specs it turns out mmap() is optional, but have you ever seen any modern system that lacks mmap()?!
15:50:39 <AnMaster> ais523, I added a check for that in cfunge, (like it depends on IEE <whatever it was> floating point)
15:50:48 <tusho> AnMaster: Windows.
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15:51:45 <ais523> yes, IIRC cygwin can't handle it
15:52:25 <pikhq> AnMaster: Strictly speaking, you only need brk() for malloc purposes; mmap() is optional, but very, very handy.
15:52:38 <AnMaster> well... I depend on mmap() now
15:52:55 <pikhq> In addition to the obvious uses of it, it makes for a much saner malloc implementation.
15:53:00 <AnMaster> ais523, sure cygwin doesn't emulate it, quite a few software depends on mmap() iirc
15:54:30 <AnMaster> anyway I'm not going to loose any sleep over that it doesn't work on cygwin :)
15:55:29 <ais523> I actually tried to get it working on cygwin earlier today
15:55:33 <AnMaster> mmap() allows the file reader to be much simpler than the previous rather complex parser that had to keep track of if last char was a \r between the fgets()s
15:55:37 <ais523> because I was checking to see if C-INTERCAL worked on cygwin
15:55:48 <ais523> C-INTERCAL itself worked first time
15:55:56 <ais523> a huge number of things it needed weren't in the headers
15:56:18 <ais523> most of the stuff the TERM fingerprint uses
15:56:26 <ais523> but there were other things too
15:56:40 <AnMaster> ais523, TERM only uses ncurses, and assumes a termcap database
15:56:41 <ais523> but apparently it didn't
15:56:51 <AnMaster> and I'm pretty sure cygwin got ncurses
15:57:05 <ais523> I can't remember off the top of my head
15:57:09 <ais523> and don't have Windows here to test on
15:57:51 <AnMaster> ais523, well, worse for Deewiant if he wants to test it officially for mycology results page at some point (still haven't had time to fix that concurrency bug, next weekend probably as I said)
16:02:08 <ais523> yep, my stack-smashing program survives -fstack-protector
16:02:14 <AnMaster> but well, it works on freebsd 6.2 with one minor change in FIXP
16:02:27 <AnMaster> ais523, it only checks for return address being clobbered iirc
16:02:36 <ais523> it segfaults with -O3 though
16:02:45 <AnMaster> if it isn't clobbered enough there will be no detection iirc
16:03:42 <ais523> all this proves is that there are some things gcc's optimiser can't handle...
16:04:00 <ais523> with code like that, though, I stand no chance of winning unless I can get it to work on a variety of ccs
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16:04:24 <tusho> Imagine an AnMaster IOCCC entry.
16:04:32 <tusho> It'd be modular, multiple-files, and optimized to hell.
16:04:41 <tusho> And the .hint would be full documentation.
16:04:43 <AnMaster> tusho, no not for IOCCC of course...
16:04:45 <ais523> I don't think you can do a multiple-files entry...
16:04:54 <tusho> ais523: That would stop him?
16:04:55 <AnMaster> tusho, not that I would take part in IOCCC
16:04:58 <ais523> at least, prog.c has to compile by itself
16:05:05 <tusho> AnMaster: Yeah. It's a DISGRACE.
16:05:14 <ais523> AnMaster: http://rafb.net/p/iaUKUX21.html
16:05:24 <ais523> gcc '-D_(a,b,_,d,e)=while(a(d(e(_?putchar(b):(c=getchar())<0?b:c))))' -Dunsigned= -funsigned-char -ansi
16:05:34 <ais523> is the required command line args to gcc
16:05:49 <ais523> tusho: guess, there's a pretty big clue near the start of the program
16:05:57 <AnMaster> well as far as I can see it includes brainfuck
16:06:05 <pikhq> ais523: For the IOCCC, I think you can get away with it only working on a specific C compiler, so long as you state what C compiler it is.
16:06:16 <ais523> btw the block of code at the top is about 3/4 BF and about 1/4 padding
16:06:25 <ais523> with no obvious distinction between the two
16:06:25 <AnMaster> ais523, um "-Dunsigned= -funsigned-char "
16:06:40 <ais523> pikhq: no you can't, read the guidelines
16:06:49 <AnMaster> ais523, care to explain why -Dunsigned= -funsigned-char is there?
16:06:55 <ais523> AnMaster: well, I absolutely needed argv to be a pointer to pointer to unsigned char
16:07:03 <ais523> so I defined its type as unsigned char **
16:07:07 <ais523> ANSI doesn't like that though
16:07:16 <AnMaster> why not just remove the unsigned?
16:07:23 <ais523> so on gcc I make the program correct C89 by removing the unsigned and forcing char to unsigned
16:07:30 <ais523> AnMaster: because it has to be a pointer to pointer to unsigned char
16:07:37 <ais523> how else could I guarantee that the char was unsigned?
16:07:58 <ais523> well, one way's to use -funsigned-char
16:08:10 <ais523> in which case the unsigned is unneccessary
16:08:14 <ais523> and I can define it away
16:08:25 <ais523> but on compilers which aren't so obliging, there's the unsigned in the program itself
16:08:33 <ais523> which is theoretically wrong but should work anyway
16:11:22 <ais523> oh, and it turns on trigraph support
16:11:27 <ais523> which is off by default in gcc
16:11:34 <ais523> and there are a few trigraphs in there
16:11:47 <ais523> it's really useful so you can have an array subscript in C easily
16:17:38 <tusho> i made an interpreter for a language i made called 42
16:17:41 <tusho> http://unforgettable.dk/42.zip
16:17:59 <tusho> containing the interpreter.
16:20:31 <tusho> http://steike.com/code/useless/zip-file-quine/droste.zip
16:21:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: TERM can't use curses
16:21:37 <Deewiant> unless you init it at the start of your program and use it for all output, then maybe
16:24:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, give me a good reason
16:24:57 <Deewiant> initializing curses clears the screen
16:24:59 <ais523> because it might not be loaded at the start of the program
16:25:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and? it is cleared first time fingerprint is loaded, that's it
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16:25:51 <AnMaster> but I could change it to make the interpreter call it
16:25:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it works using term.h
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16:26:03 <Deewiant> and with TERM you should be able to do a"raboof",,,,,,,"MRET"4( <forget the commands, replace the written "foobar" with "foobaz">
16:26:19 <Deewiant> if you use curses, the ( clears the screen and that wouldn't work
16:26:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh? where in the specs does it say so
16:26:43 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: want to help me out here? ;-)
16:26:45 <MikeRiley> TERM was not originally designed for use with curses...
16:26:59 <MikeRiley> if i remember correctly,,,TERM just outputs vt-100 codes...
16:27:09 <MikeRiley> but would have to look at the code to be sure of that...
16:27:12 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, that is not portable
16:27:19 <AnMaster> you need to use term info database
16:27:20 <tusho> AnMaster: YOUR GODDAMN THING ISN'T PORTABLE
16:27:23 <MikeRiley> i agree,,,thought about chaning it to ansi....
16:27:30 <AnMaster> tusho, it may not be to cygwin
16:27:36 <AnMaster> tusho, it is to stuff like *BSD
16:27:42 <tusho> You go complaining about portability and stuff it full of obscure functions that might not even work.
16:27:50 <Deewiant> I only tested on cygwin so that might explain why RC/Funge didn't work :-)
16:27:53 <AnMaster> tusho, all but mmap() is optional
16:27:59 <ais523> well, I think C-INTERCAL possibly predates C89
16:28:06 <ais523> although it uses prototypes throughout anyway
16:28:08 <tusho> Just stop being so ridiculous and making everyone here's life harder by whining that it's not portable for every goddamn thing we suggest.
16:28:13 <ais523> it certainly predates C89 catching on
16:28:17 <ais523> but it was modernised ages ago
16:28:19 <tusho> Nobody. Cares. How. Portable. Your. Befunge. Interpreter. Is.
16:28:20 <MikeRiley> TERM works for me while using xterm as my terminal windows...
16:28:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well as cygwin lacks mmap() apperently you can't get cfunge to work on it
16:28:41 <MikeRiley> ideally, the underlying code for TERM should be tailored to the environment the particular interpreter is meant to run...
16:28:46 <pikhq> Rule one of coding in C: USE AUTOTOOLS.
16:28:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ais523 tried it seems
16:28:52 <pikhq> Thank you, that is all.
16:28:56 <MikeRiley> the spec just specifies what TERM is to do, not how it is to do it...
16:28:57 <tusho> pikhq: Well that's an awful rule.
16:29:01 <tusho> It involves using autotools.
16:29:03 <ais523> AnMaster: there were also problems in FPSP
16:29:07 <pikhq> -- Your friendly psychotic guy who hates people not using sane build systems.
16:29:14 <MikeRiley> i used vt-100 codes since they work in xterm, i used ansi on the windows version since that woked in the dos windows...
16:29:18 <ais523> pikhq: I use autoconf but not the others
16:29:19 <tusho> pikhq: Haha, you just called autotools sane :)
16:29:22 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe, sinf() and the other *f are C99 functions
16:29:30 <AnMaster> ais523, so very possible that doesn't work
16:29:30 <ais523> pikhq: AnMaster once tried to automakise it and failed
16:29:42 <pikhq> tusho: Compared to the 4,000 line Perl script I'm being paid to make work, it is sane.
16:29:45 <MikeRiley> well,,,i know...meant more that it can be run in a windows environment instead of unix...
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16:30:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: does your TERM work and not use curses, then?
16:30:10 <pikhq> Yes, a 4,000 line Perl script for a build system.
16:30:19 <MikeRiley> to a certain extent TERM is going to be platform dependent...
16:30:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it works but yes it initialize on first load and it uses term.h
16:30:29 <pikhq> Some days, I hate building RPMs.
16:30:33 <MikeRiley> on unix systems it could be built on top of curses,,,but that is not available for windows...
16:30:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: as long as it doesn't clear the screen that's fine :-)
16:30:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, putting into the addressing mode thingy cause screen to clear
16:31:00 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: PDCurses works on DOS, Windows, and various other platforms.
16:31:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but I found out that it isn't needed on xterm or linux console
16:31:03 <AnMaster> it may be needed on other ones
16:31:09 <ais523> AnMaster: cygwin doesn't have term.h, that's one thing that caused lots of errors
16:31:18 <AnMaster> ais523, well that is POSIX iirc
16:31:35 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: it's the only curses implementation I think I've ever used. :-P
16:31:48 <MikeRiley> i have only used ncurses on unix...
16:31:58 <Deewiant> ais523: hmm, I think cygwin should have term.h
16:32:01 <AnMaster> ais523, can't find if it is, but I'm pretty sure term.h is standard
16:32:04 <ais523> I've used both pdcurses and ncurses
16:32:09 <ais523> pdcurses on DOS, ncurses on Linux
16:32:20 <MikeRiley> cygwin should have it if the necessary package was installed...
16:32:22 <ais523> Deewiant: maybe it was in a weird place and couldn't find it
16:32:28 <ais523> MikeRiley: I installed all the packages in cygwin
16:32:29 <Deewiant> term.h comes with ncurses, no?
16:32:53 <MikeRiley> hold on, let me go and look at a cygwin installation,,,brb,,,,
16:33:02 * ais523 also looks at a cygwin installation
16:33:52 <Deewiant> ncurses/term.h, does that count
16:34:06 <ais523> probably that's the one
16:34:14 <ais523> in which case AnMaster needs to use some sort of autolocation tool for it
16:35:49 <MikeRiley> termio and termcap are the ones that are in cygwin...no term.h
16:37:40 <MikeRiley> doing a search of the entire cygwin structure does not have term.h
16:38:04 <Deewiant> maybe you don't have ncurses installed
16:38:13 <Deewiant> /usr/include/ncurses/term.h exists here
16:38:19 <MikeRiley> i thought all packages were installed, but they may not be...
16:38:22 <ais523> and I have ncurses/term.h
16:39:06 <AnMaster> ais523, try changing in cfunge then to see if it works
16:39:09 <Deewiant> and what was that about mmap in cygwin?
16:39:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no idea, anyway cfunge now loads files using mmap() because that makes the parser much simpler
16:39:33 <ais523> I don't know if it works, but I wouldn't expect it to
16:39:38 <AnMaster> as I no longer need to care about previous char
16:39:39 <ais523> AnMaster: never heard of fungetc?
16:39:52 <AnMaster> ais523, um yes I know about it
16:39:59 <AnMaster> ais523, but I prefer to get in chunks
16:40:11 <AnMaster> the performance for loading mycology gets worse otherwise
16:40:13 <Deewiant> so just have a buffer in between
16:40:20 <ais523> "makes the parser much simpler" and "makes the parser much faster" are contradictory to some extent
16:40:33 <ais523> so if you're going for speed, you shouldn't really go for simplicity
16:40:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but what if stuff happens a \r\n is across the edge of the buffer?
16:40:40 <ais523> after all you're even funrolling loops...
16:40:42 <AnMaster> that is what I wanted to remove
16:41:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: why would it matter?
16:41:14 <Deewiant> you get a char, notice that it's \r, get another char, the buffer loads another block, you get \n
16:41:17 <AnMaster> ais523, -O2 already does that sometimes
16:41:17 <ais523> that's why the funroll, you see
16:41:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well mmap is what I use now, much simpler really
16:41:53 <Deewiant> you can just loop over the file?
16:42:14 <ais523> AnMaster: what if the whole file doesn't fit into memory?
16:42:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also this allowed me to get rid of some posix_fadvise stuff ;P
16:42:18 <ais523> although I suppose that would fail anyway
16:42:26 <AnMaster> ais523, then it wouldn't fit into funge space either
16:42:38 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, you need a posix_memory_cache_advise instead now
16:42:51 <AnMaster> no more posix_* in loading stuff :P
16:42:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but don't you now need to have memory for both the file and the Funge-Space at the same time?
16:43:16 <AnMaster> but I don't think I'm likely to hit that
16:43:28 <AnMaster> nothing in funge specs says I can't use mmap()
16:43:55 <Deewiant> no, but it's a bit wasteful to not be able to load a 300MB file with 512MB of memory :-P
16:43:55 <ais523> well, nothing in the funge specs says I can't use CreateProcessEx
16:44:04 <ais523> that doesn't mean it's a good idea...
16:44:18 <AnMaster> ais523, you are free to do so if you want
16:44:36 <ais523> not really, Microsoft went back to calling it CreateProcess
16:44:55 <AnMaster> ais523, and you may even need it (or the non-Ex version) if you want PERL to work on windows
16:45:12 <AnMaster> on *nix I can just use fork() and execvp()
16:45:13 <Deewiant> only if you're coding at the OS level...
16:45:13 <MikeRiley> btw,,,,Rc/Funge-98 v1.10 is going to have some new fingerprints....
16:45:22 <Deewiant> and fork() and execvp() are at the OS level :-P
16:45:22 <ais523> AnMaster: well, you could do the same on cygwin
16:45:30 <ais523> which can fork on Windows
16:45:33 <Deewiant> ais523: except that exec won't do what you think it does
16:45:40 <ais523> although it advices you to do spawn instead to save a lot of trouble
16:46:01 <Deewiant> but I think both fork() and exec() will do a CreateProcess
16:46:13 <ais523> fork definitely does a createprocess
16:46:20 <ais523> because cygwin doesn't cow forking processes
16:46:21 <AnMaster> only "spawn" man page here is spawn(8)
16:46:25 <ais523> but instead copies everything over at once
16:46:27 <AnMaster> " The spawn(8) daemon provides the Postfix equivalent of inetd. It listens on a port as specified in..."
16:46:38 <ais523> AnMaster: "spawn" is a common name for fork/exec mixes
16:46:54 <ais523> it's often implemented even on systems where fork isn't
16:47:45 <ais523> No manual entry for posix_spawn
16:47:53 <Deewiant> http://www.google.com/search?q=posix_spawn
16:48:29 <Deewiant> These functions are part of the Spawn option and need not be provided on all implementations.
16:48:54 <AnMaster> just fork() and execv() + some pipe() and dup2()
16:48:57 <ais523> generally it's best for configure to check for spawn and use it if it's available
16:48:58 <Deewiant> why would you anyway, given that you have a working implementation
16:49:14 <Deewiant> yeah, "just" four kernel primitives ;-)
16:49:14 <ais523> because systems which bother to implement spawn normally need it pretty badly
16:49:19 <AnMaster> posix_spawn, posix_spawnp - spawn a process (ADVANCED REALTIME)
16:49:36 <ais523> not the ADVANCED REALTIME version
16:49:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 2008-07-29 18:48:57 ( Deewiant) why would you anyway, given that you have a working implementation
16:49:56 <AnMaster> int posix_spawn(pid_t *restrict pid, const char *restrict path,
16:49:57 <AnMaster> const posix_spawn_file_actions_t *file_actions,
16:49:57 <AnMaster> const posix_spawnattr_t *restrict attrp,
16:49:57 <AnMaster> char *const argv[restrict], char *const envp[restrict]);
16:50:15 <ais523> spawnlp is the common name on Windows
16:50:28 <Deewiant> This POSIX function is deprecated beginning in Visual C++ 2005. Use the ISO C++ conformant _spawnlp instead.
16:50:29 <ais523> which has 3 args and a ...
16:50:54 <ais523> is that the same as execlp?
16:51:06 <ais523> as spawn is vfork+exec I'd expect it to be
16:51:12 <Deewiant> int execlp(const char *file, const char *arg, ...);
16:51:12 <ais523> posix_spawn looks like something different
16:51:26 <ais523> ok, the Windows spawnlp has an int flags at the start
16:51:41 <ais523> Deewiant: vfork's just an optimisation for things that can't handle forking properly
16:51:54 <ais523> in fact it exists for the same reason spawn does...
16:52:04 <Deewiant> It is rather unfortunate that Linux revived this specter from the past. The BSD man page states: "This system call will be eliminated when proper system sharing mechanisms are imple‐
16:52:08 <Deewiant> mented. Users should not depend on the memory sharing semantics of vfork() as it will, in that case, be made synonymous to fork(2)."
16:52:33 <ais523> Deewiant: the correct interpretation of vfork is as a limited version of fork
16:52:38 <Deewiant> I think when the docs for a function say "[i]t is rather unfortunate that [this exists]" you know you're not doing well ;-)
16:52:40 <ais523> where you can't change memory in the child until you exec
16:52:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, isn't it synonymous on linux iirc?
16:52:56 <ais523> AnMaster: no, on Linux vfork blocks the parent until the child execs for efficiency reasons
16:53:02 <ais523> basically, vfork + exec = spawn
16:53:12 <AnMaster> well I need to do some other stuff as well
16:53:15 <ais523> the difference is that you can't legally use vfork for anything else...
16:53:25 <ais523> it's an optimisation, which the programmer is forced to do
16:53:26 <AnMaster> because I need to mess with file descriptors in the child
16:53:34 <ais523> and it's unfortunate that it exists because the OS should figure it for itself
16:53:41 <ais523> AnMaster: I can't remember whether you're allowed to do that
16:53:57 <AnMaster> ais523, and even malloc() to create an array
16:53:59 <ais523> the annoying thing being that even if you aren't it'll probably work anyway
16:54:03 <AnMaster> which I'm pretty sure you can't
16:54:18 <ais523> that would definitely not be allowed
16:54:30 <AnMaster> ais523, so I just use full fork()
16:55:03 <ais523> and take the performance hit on systems where vfork is several orders of magnitude faster than fork?
16:55:13 <ais523> I'd have expected you to set things up so that you /could/ use vfork
16:55:36 <ais523> http://www.unixguide.net/unix/programming/1.1.2.shtml
16:55:42 <ais523> is apparently a guide about vfork vs. fork
16:55:42 <AnMaster> ais523, well freebsd doesn't have that issue
16:56:08 <AnMaster> I would be surprised if modern solaris had the issue
16:56:16 <ais523> cygwin has that issue for obvious reasons
16:56:26 <ais523> which is that hooking into the Windows kernel memory manager would be ridiculous
16:56:32 <AnMaster> and really, I don't give a damn about cygwin
16:56:38 <AnMaster> sorry to say that, but that is how it is
16:57:40 <AnMaster> I'm happy if it works on there, but if it doesn't I won't care. I don't plan to install windows to try it out, nor install wine
16:58:04 <ais523> cygwin doesn't run on wine
16:58:40 <tusho> AnMaster: I dunno why you care more about ObscuroPOSIX than the OS most of the worl duses.
17:00:36 <AnMaster> tusho, I care about a standard that works
17:00:56 <AnMaster> cfunge worked on OS X, at least it did last month when I got a friend to try it out
17:01:13 <AnMaster> I tested it on all BSD (found an issue today that I just fixed, with a missing include on freebsd)
17:02:08 <oklopol> i'll probably stop programming the day i start caring whether my program works on computers other than mine
17:02:23 <Deewiant> I just think it's harder to write a non-platform-agnostic program in general
17:02:25 <ais523> oklopol: well, I was originally like that
17:02:31 <ais523> but I've had to move computers several times
17:03:28 <oklopol> ais523: i will, hopefully, make my own platform some day, and disconnect from the rest of the world
17:03:41 <ais523> oklopol: will you still join #esoteric?
17:04:12 <oklopol> anyway i use python so platforms aren't that much of an issue ofc
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17:04:41 <oklopol> if the python people care about different platforms, then i kinda get that for free
17:05:30 <oklopol> really it would be better to stop using programming languages altogether, i could just program in pi calculus
17:05:54 <Deewiant> yeah, you wouldn't have to run programs then either
17:06:17 <oklopol> yeah! i could like live in the woods.
17:07:19 <oklopol> that would be awesome, i'd live in a hole and have like a torch for light and code on leaves with my piece of coal
17:07:33 <oklopol> i should've rhymed hole/coal
17:07:54 <Deewiant> and what would this code be for
17:08:19 <oklopol> for my amusement, naturally
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17:13:32 <oklopol> so much fun, now i need a c++ compiler, so i need to do exactly what i did when i was getting intercal, although now click on "i want c++ too"
17:13:48 <oklopol> do i have any idea how to do this after just doing it a week ago? hell no! :D
17:14:09 * oklopol continues trying & failing miserably
17:14:59 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> BeOS or RISC OS <-- OS/2?
17:15:13 <oklopol> and what the fuck is this about really, i get a list of files all of which i need to download, but there's no way to just download them all :D
17:15:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but BeOS got some users iirc
17:15:38 <AnMaster> something like a open source clone
17:15:53 <AnMaster> something japanese style in name
17:15:56 <Deewiant> I wonder, is having "OS" in the name of an OS a criterion for it not becoming popular
17:16:33 <ais523> PCLinuxOS is a pretty popular Linux distro
17:16:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it isn't very popular ;P
17:17:07 <oklopol> ais523: is it more popular than mac os?
17:17:11 <AnMaster> anyway has anyone here tried twinview?
17:17:29 <ais523> oklopol: I doubt it, Mac OS X is way more popular than all Linux distros combined for the home market I think
17:17:29 <AnMaster> had a monitor around due to my dad's PC having a broken mobo
17:17:38 <AnMaster> so took it's monitor while he waits for getting a new from work
17:20:31 <tusho> os x is second to windows
17:20:44 <ais523> tusho: nah, it's fourth to Windows, Windows and Windows IIRC
17:20:45 <tusho> 13-20% of the market I believe
17:20:54 <tusho> linux has something pitiful like 5%
17:20:55 <ais523> and the figures I saw most recently put it at 6%
17:21:02 <tusho> and BeOS has 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000%
17:21:09 <tusho> (there is no 1 at the end)
17:21:28 <ais523> well, my MegaWeirdOS has about -90% of the market
17:21:32 <ais523> because it's the exact opposite of Windows
17:21:39 <ais523> it doesn't exist yet, I just made it up on the spot
17:22:03 <ais523> it can do file copies very quickly, but cannot do anything else in a reasonable timespan except within the first 15 mins or so after its perfect startup
17:22:05 <tusho> so it's featureful
17:22:23 <ais523> oh, and it prompts whenever you try to do something that doesn't require admin privileges
17:22:31 <ais523> or looks like it might not need them
17:22:42 <tusho> innocentprogram.exe
17:22:52 <ais523> it comes with a stock of 50,000,000 sample programs
17:22:58 <ais523> although strangely no basic text editors
17:23:18 <Deewiant> and no web browser or file manager
17:23:39 <tusho> IE being a web browser is debatable...
17:23:41 <ais523> it doesn't need a file manager though
17:23:55 <ihope> It doesn't have a file system. That's why file copies need to be so optimized.
17:23:56 <ais523> it has a chording command line interface
17:24:00 <ais523> like a cross between bash and emacs
17:24:14 <ais523> Deewiant: yes, it's copied a lot of good features from Firefox badly
17:24:26 <ais523> Deewiant: ESCape Meta-Alt-Control-Shift-
17:24:29 <Deewiant> which Opera enthusiasts claim Firefox copied badly ;-)
17:24:32 <ihope> Commands are performed by pressing multiple keys simultaneously.
17:25:13 * ais523 thinks that that's their favourite backronym for Emacs
17:25:43 <ais523> it's accurate, but not necessarily a bad thing
17:25:52 <ais523> I'm used to pressing alt-control-shift-5 to do a regex replace
17:25:57 <ais523> and it isn't that difficult to type...
17:26:04 <ais523> (alt=meta on this keyboard)
17:27:22 <Deewiant> alt-control-shift-5? doing that with one hand seems annoying
17:27:26 <tusho> escape = meta = alt
17:27:30 <Deewiant> and with two, even more so ;-)
17:30:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, when would you use that?
17:31:20 <AnMaster> it seems like a stupid key combo
17:31:21 <ais523> regex replace in Emacs
17:31:26 <ais523> and normally I use both hands for it
17:31:43 <ais523> no, it's control-meta-%
17:32:27 <ais523> I think removing one of the keys in it does it without the regex
17:32:38 <AnMaster> ais523, yes Meta-% is without regexc
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17:33:07 <ais523> I suppose the keybindings don't seem silly to emacs users after a while
17:33:08 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway wouldn't emacs be worse on a dvorak?
17:33:27 <AnMaster> ais523, and no I'm happy with C-x C-s for save :)
17:33:50 <AnMaster> but control-meta-% is just silly
17:33:52 <ais523> <AnMaster> ais523, anyway wouldn't emacs be worse on a dvorak? <--- no idea, but the mind boggles
17:34:09 <olsner> geez, alt-ctrl-shift-5
17:34:16 <AnMaster> ais523, btw escape then ctrl-shift-5 works
17:34:23 <ais523> well yes but that's harder to type
17:34:33 <AnMaster> ais523, no you can release after esc
17:34:33 <ais523> esc's all the way up the top left of the keyboard
17:34:39 <ais523> AnMaster: it takes longer
17:34:43 <ais523> and I have to move my left hand
17:34:52 <AnMaster> so it is within reach even when I'm on home row
17:35:00 <ais523> that was a control-alt-shift-5 with one hand
17:35:08 <ais523> and I tend to type a bit below home row
17:35:15 <ais523> maybe Emacs users get used to that...
17:35:15 <AnMaster> this is a full size keyboard yes
17:35:40 <AnMaster> ais523, depends on what editor I use :)
17:36:59 <AnMaster> ais523, in kate or kdevelop I move differently
17:37:12 <AnMaster> ais523, I use several text editors
17:37:26 <ais523> but in Kate I generally have to go through the menus to get to things
17:37:31 <ais523> and in nano I often can't find them at all
17:37:36 <AnMaster> ais523, nah I tend to know where the keys are in all
17:37:41 <ais523> partly because they aren't there
17:37:59 <AnMaster> it is great for a quick config file edit
17:38:33 <ais523> what does the *~ represent?
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17:39:34 <ais523> well, I backup my files into a dedicated backup directory
17:39:43 <AnMaster> ais523, can't be arsed to set that up
17:39:49 <ais523> I started that practice after accidentally typing rm * one time too often
17:39:56 <ais523> now the backups are elsewhere, I can restore from them
17:40:01 <ais523> and get the second most recent version
17:40:04 <ais523> which is normally good enough
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18:00:12 <MikeRiley> new fingerprint idea, would like feedback,,,,
18:00:15 <MikeRiley> A ( V n -- ) - Execute command at vector n times from current
18:00:15 <MikeRiley> location, IP will be pointed at the A
18:00:15 <MikeRiley> B ( V n -- ) - Like A but IP will be reset each iteration
18:00:16 <MikeRiley> G ( V -- ) - Set position of IP to delta
18:00:18 <MikeRiley> K ( n -- ) - what k should have been, will skip following
18:00:20 <MikeRiley> instruction if it is the iterated one
18:00:21 -!- tusho has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:00:22 <MikeRiley> R ( n -- ) - Like K but IP is reset after each iteration
18:00:24 <MikeRiley> X ( cmd n -- ) - execute command on stack n times
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18:04:56 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, this is "Variations of k in C flat"? ;P
18:05:31 <MikeRiley> then we can have a k that we would all like to have...
18:05:33 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, X got some problems maybe
18:05:45 <MikeRiley> parameters would be above the command
18:05:47 <AnMaster> not sure how it will be handled
18:06:01 <MikeRiley> yep....cmd would be popped from the stack
18:06:33 <MikeRiley> so the stack would appear as if the command came from Funge-space...
18:07:28 <AnMaster> "internal error: verification job didn't find specified track on CD"....
18:09:24 <AnMaster> maybe 8x instead of 16x will help
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18:27:54 <Tritonio_> hello! I just finished a new implementation for arrays in brainfuck. The array can be of ANY size and can store more than one byte in each position.
18:29:02 <pikhq> ... More than one byte in each position?!?
18:29:18 <Tritonio_> more than one byte in each indexed position
18:29:21 <pikhq> Using more than one cell for each position.
18:29:30 <pikhq> That is fucking awesome.
18:29:33 <Tritonio_> of course... :-D it's not a compression algo
18:30:15 <Tritonio_> In fact it is a Lua script that creates the code needed to read and write to the array after you give it n and k
18:31:07 <AnMaster> Tritonio_, rewrite that script in brainfuck
18:31:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, array variables is one thing I wanted in Def-BF
18:31:32 <Tritonio_> AnMaster, that would be really interesting!
18:31:49 <pikhq> So, the code needed to write to the array depends upon the size of the array...
18:31:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, otherwise there is no way to create arrays in Def-BF as high level compiler could assign something else to same memory place
18:32:22 <Tritonio_> AnMaster, if I do it in FBF or in Calamari's Basic does it count as a brainfuck script? :-P
18:32:28 <ihope> New BF commands: (...): execute ..., unless you have good reason not to. {...}: hope that ..., if run, would end on a non-zero cell.
18:32:33 <AnMaster> Tritonio_, Def-BF is for system programming btw
18:32:45 <AnMaster> Tritonio_, brainfuck with jumps + some other stuff
18:32:55 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat and pikhq invented it
18:32:59 <pikhq> That would actually be, well, not too hard to insert into PEBBLE.
18:32:59 <AnMaster> Tritonio_, yeah like kernels...
18:32:59 <tusho_> Tritonio_: writing OS'
18:33:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, but see the issue with Def-BF and arrays
18:33:45 <Tritonio_> you could use my implementation to do memory allocation. You could use a really huge table.
18:33:55 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, you can't do arrays in current Def-BF I think. Why? Because you can't know where high level compiler will place variables
18:33:56 <RodgerTheGreat> I wrote the initial spec when we were originally discussing an Eso-OS a while back, and then pikhq drummed up some fresh interest
18:33:57 <pikhq> AnMaster: Ever heard of malloc? :p
18:34:00 <Tritonio_> memory allocation by the OS, i mean.
18:34:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, how will you implement it in Def-BF?
18:34:29 <pikhq> Same way you do in C.
18:34:35 <Tritonio_> Wait, I thought that the whole OS except of a small part is written in brainfuck
18:34:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes but you need to know where the static variables will be
18:35:00 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, no that isn't the issue
18:35:05 <tusho_> Tritonio_: There are multiple Brainfuck OS'.
18:35:09 <RodgerTheGreat> ^ and as pikhq said you can allocate in the same way as any language
18:35:12 <tusho_> This one is for one of them.
18:35:16 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, the issue here is creating variables with larger than one cell
18:35:26 <RodgerTheGreat> globals are easy and predefined, local variables are placed on a "stack"
18:35:36 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, yes global arrays
18:35:54 <Tritonio_> I will do some more debugging later. I haven't tryied tables larger than 256^2 and I haven't tried if it works for more than one byte per position...
18:36:01 <AnMaster> and if you write a malloc() in Def-BF, how do you know what memory is safe to allocate from
18:36:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I have a hand-compiled high-level -> low level example that demonstrates function calling conventions
18:36:34 <pikhq> AnMaster: This is actually *exactly the same* as in C.
18:36:44 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, function calling ABI would be implementation specific
18:36:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, and I don't know what that is, tell me!
18:37:11 <AnMaster> the kernel need to know where the variables in question are stored
18:37:16 <AnMaster> so it can avoid them in malloc
18:37:32 <pikhq> And the kernel knows that, because it loaded all of them into memory.
18:37:37 <RodgerTheGreat> from the kernel's perspective, all memory is a hugeass tape
18:37:52 <RodgerTheGreat> and you'd then have allocation records and things just like in a normal OS
18:39:45 <pikhq> Anyways, the kernel knows where the variables are because those variables are marked in the data section of the binary.
18:39:47 <RodgerTheGreat> in all likelihood a real esoOS would work something like JavaOS, with a kernel and several language interpreters written in compiled Def-BF, and then everything else made on top of these facilities
18:40:14 <RodgerTheGreat> 'course, there's no reason you can't do standard binary loading at runtime this way either
18:40:31 <pikhq> It loads those binaries into memory, sticking the data section wherever the kernel declares that it will go.
18:40:51 <pikhq> Then, as far as malloc goes? The kernel defines an area where the heap goes.
18:40:57 <RodgerTheGreat> as well as patching addresses with the offset it's loaded at in memory
18:41:14 <pikhq> The userspace malloc() function assigns addresses out of the process's heap.
18:41:49 <pikhq> malloc() uses the mmap and brk system calls to change the size of the heap when needed.
18:42:42 <pikhq> And, yeah, this is mundane in the OS development world.
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18:54:44 <Tritonio_> (btw the new implementation can be used for multidimensional arrays.)
18:55:37 <pikhq> Tritonio_: Single dimension arrays can be used for multi-dimensional arrays.
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18:55:59 <pikhq> Actually, single dimension arrays can be used for any data structure.
18:56:34 <Tritonio_> yes but it's fairly easy with this implementation because of the multiple indexes.
18:57:06 <Tritonio_> but every dimension except the first should have size 256^something
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19:02:49 <oklopol> integers can be used for any data structure
19:03:42 <pikhq> That's because integers + a turing machine can implement arrays. :p
19:04:47 <oklopol> arrays suck, graphs are the shit
19:06:24 <pikhq> What about associative stacks?
19:07:45 <oklopol> now what are associative graphs?
19:09:24 <tusho_> oklopol: i said tell me
19:12:01 -!- lament has joined.
19:13:34 <tusho_> IT IS GOOD YOU ARE BACK.
19:14:05 <alexbobp> is that a programming language? Because it could be.
19:14:11 <lament> my friend, whose box i normally irc from, has destructively updated it
19:14:24 <lament> catastrophically improved
19:14:25 <tusho_> YOUR BOX'S PASSING AWAY
19:14:28 <tusho_> IT IS GOOD YOU ARE BACK.
19:14:32 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:14:48 <alexbobp> lament: did your friend update the security, or what?
19:15:03 <tusho_> alexbobp: The flux capacitators, duh.
19:15:07 <lament> he kinda killed everything
19:15:16 <lament> i should stop using his box
19:15:39 <lament> alexbobp: because that joke got old several years ago
19:16:12 <alexbobp> lament: I bet that whatever computer you are using to connect to his computer, you could just use to connect to freenode directly :P
19:16:31 <lament> alexbobp: having an always-on connection is very nice
19:17:07 <lament> constantly joining and leaving is a hassle
19:17:19 <lament> and people can't message you while you're away
19:17:19 <alexbobp> lament: good point. Do you not have a broadband Intertube connection?
19:17:37 <alexbobp> if people want to message you while you're away, they should use email :P
19:17:51 <lament> if they normally talk to me on irc
19:18:02 <lament> because that's what's more convenient to both them and me
19:18:11 <pikhq> Perhaps we should just use msgserv? :p
19:18:20 <pikhq> Or was it memoserv?
19:18:36 <lament> i'd need a linux box so i could run screen on it
19:18:40 <alexbobp> whatever it is, it shall be coded in befunge
19:18:49 <alexbobp> lament: what sort of box do you currently have, if not a linux one?
19:19:04 <alexbobp> ah, well, that's not to bad. You can't run screen on it?
19:19:26 <alexbobp> if not, you can probably get it with DarwinPorts.
19:19:42 <lament> i'll just use my home box then.
19:19:50 <tusho_> lament: there's an irssi thing
19:19:54 <tusho_> which is basically irrsi.
19:20:01 <tusho_> (it actually runs irssi)
19:20:08 <tusho_> lament: well, it's just regular irssi
19:20:12 <lament> the whole point of using irssi is that it runs in screen
19:20:19 <tusho_> just with keyboard shortcuts 'n stuff.
19:20:59 <lament> btw, anybody here puts their home directory in a VCS?
19:21:36 <pikhq> If I had a sufficiently large hard drive, I would.
19:23:31 <lament> i'm seriously considering it
19:23:38 <lament> os x has this thing called time machine
19:23:52 <lament> but using a vcs seems less magical
19:24:37 * pikhq also badly needs to organise his home directory
19:24:43 <pikhq> I'll do that when I get to college.
19:24:58 <pikhq> (can't now; my computer and I are in a different state)
19:25:21 <pikhq> Though I could probably start by organising my Nonlogic home directory.
19:26:29 <alexbobp> lament: I keep my resume and a lot of my text documents in rcs, but I just use an rdiff backup for my home directory
19:26:55 <tusho_> lament: time machine is nice in the way it integrates with apps
19:27:07 <alexbobp> is it like Vista's shadow copy?
19:27:08 <tusho_> (e.g. press it on iphoto and itunes and it'll do what you expect)
19:27:11 <alexbobp> (not that I condone the use of vista)
19:27:19 <tusho_> alexbobp: it's an automatic backup system that lets you browse old versions
19:27:22 <tusho_> and selectively copy them back
19:27:28 <alexbobp> tusho_: okay, so just like shadow copy
19:27:36 <lament> yeah, time machine sounds nice for those specific apps
19:27:40 <alexbobp> you can also do that with an rdiff backup :P
19:27:47 <tusho_> alexbobp: that doesn't integrate with apps.
19:28:02 * pikhq also needs a decent way of doing backups...
19:28:10 <tusho_> with time machine you can just press it, slide up, pick a photo, and drag it back into a certain category on the current iphoto
19:28:20 <lament> putting stuff in VCS can get messy if you forget to commit for a long time
19:28:24 <pikhq> Of course, sticking it in CVS, SVN, or Git would make backups easy.
19:28:41 <alexbobp> tusho_: wouldn't that only work with apps made by Apple or specifically to support the thang?
19:28:48 <pikhq> Get a big friggin' hard drive, rsync the repository over to it every week or so.
19:28:56 <tusho_> alexbobp: Well duh, it needs support code for the integration.
19:29:04 <tusho_> If there is no support code, then you can just press it in finder
19:29:14 <tusho_> But, there's always the pressure to implement it
19:29:17 <lament> i guess the biggest difficulty with VCS would be in telling it which files to ignore
19:29:23 <tusho_> so an awful lot of apps that it makes sense for do it already
19:29:23 <lament> and then actually remembering those rules :)
19:29:30 <alexbobp> tusho_: I see no reason to have app integration. Unlike the target audience for a mac, I know where my programs keep their files anyway.
19:30:02 <tusho_> alexbobp: It's clever because you're belittling the intelligence of people who have better things to do than sit around a file system doing wizardry all day when they want to get a file back.
19:30:11 <pikhq> lament: With SVN, unless you specifically add a file, it's ignored.
19:30:31 <lament> then you'd get pages upon pages of ? files in each svn report
19:30:50 <lament> i guess that's when you notice and create ignore rules for them
19:30:58 <alexbobp> tusho_: I run a program called "keep". It's with KDE and does it all automatically. I dunno where you think that takes a lot of time or anything.
19:31:10 <lament> there're two sets of files
19:31:12 <tusho_> alexbobp: " Unlike the target audience for a mac, I know where my programs keep their files anyway."
19:31:13 <alexbobp> It's basically a frontend for cron and some command line backup tool.
19:31:29 <alexbobp> tusho_: well yeah. If I want to restore my firefox profile, I say "Hey keep, restore ~/.firefox".
19:31:31 <tusho_> The reason for integration is that *it makes it a 2-second process to get a file back* and you are just insulting OS X users' intelligence without justification.
19:31:35 <alexbobp> I don't need integration with firefox.
19:31:46 <lament> various config files like .bash_profile that i want replicated among different systems, and various files like photos that i want to keep on my system (but still version)
19:31:57 <lament> is this solvable nicely?
19:32:15 <lament> other than using two different VCS to version the same directory with different ignore rules :)
19:32:19 <alexbobp> tusho_: By the way, I'm not insulting mac users' intelligence. I know plenty of smart mac users. I'm just saying the OS is designed to support people with a much lower intelligence.
19:32:41 <tusho_> "I'm just saying the OS is designed to support people with a much lower intelligence." You are a pretentious asshat who judges people's intelligence by their willingness to learn the innards of a computer.
19:32:50 <lament> intelligence has nothing to do with knowing where files are kept
19:33:03 <alexbobp> lament: Or use a decentralized RCS like darcs, and all computers can pull patches from eachother
19:33:15 <lament> alexbobp: not sure how that solves the problem i described
19:33:54 <alexbobp> tusho_: sorry, I was referring to a specific subset of intelligence. I chose my words poorly. What I should have said was that the target audience of a mac doesn't give a shit about computers and will not willingly learn about how they work.
19:34:21 <tusho_> alexbobp: I would say you have a rather skewed version of the target audience.
19:34:32 <alexbobp> lament: Well, you said you want to be able to update a file on one of the computers and then propagate it to the others, right?
19:35:21 <alexbobp> tusho_: Most of the mac users I've seen are artists and such with no interest in how computers work, they just want to check email, edit video, etc. Also, if you watch Steve Jobs' keynote speeches, he talks down to the audience big time.
19:35:56 <oklopol> i don't give a shit where programs keep their files, and in my opinion a modern os shouldn't even let a user know about as low-level things as files.
19:36:05 <lament> alexbobp: no, that's not what i said.
19:36:40 <tusho_> oklopol++. I do know where programs keep their files, I just don't think it means fuck all.
19:36:47 <alexbobp> oklopol: I don't know what you mean by "modern," but if my OS tried to hide any details from me, I'd bitchslap it.
19:36:47 <tusho_> I also agree that files are a pretty darned low-level abstraction.
19:37:04 <lament> does firefox keep each bookmark in a separate file? i bet it doesn't
19:37:12 <alexbobp> lament: it keeps them in an xml file
19:37:16 <tusho_> alexbobp: see, that's wrong
19:37:19 <tusho_> to use files 'elegantly'
19:37:19 <lament> that means... firefox could benefit from time machine integration!
19:37:27 <tusho_> bookmarks/Bookmark\ name
19:37:34 <tusho_> lament: indeed it could
19:37:39 <tusho_> you could restore only some bookmarks
19:37:39 <lament> alexbobp: so you know where firefox keeps data, but it would not help you recover a specific bookmark that you deleted
19:37:43 <tusho_> instead of 'hey keep, gimme the old file'
19:37:46 <tusho_> and then merging it manually
19:37:49 <lament> alexbobp: but with time machine integration, you could
19:37:50 <tusho_> which is sooooooooo much fun
19:38:12 <alexbobp> lament: Sure it would. If I wanted to recover a specific bookmark, I'd tell my revision control system to backtrack the patch where I deleted that.
19:38:31 <alexbobp> lament: If I'm not using RCS, but I'm using rdiff backups, and I remember when I deleted it, I can revert to just before that.
19:38:47 <lament> alexbobp: then you would lose all bookmarks you added afterwards
19:39:05 <alexbobp> lament: Or I could just open the backup file from the correct time, and copypaste that bookmark into the current file.
19:39:07 <oklopol> alexbobp: would you mind if an os hid the info about where in your hd a file exists, exactly? i doubt that, because as everything is on a higher level of abstraction, why would you give a shit
19:39:15 <tusho_> "lament: Or I could just open the backup file from the correct time, and copypaste that bookmark into the current file."
19:39:17 <lament> alexbobp: so you'd have to do much more work
19:39:21 <tusho_> That's a WASTE OF FUCKING TIME
19:39:22 <oklopol> similarly, i don't think there's any use to have serialized binary files
19:39:23 <tusho_> I should never have to do that.
19:39:24 <lament> alexbobp: how does that correlate with higher intelligence?
19:39:29 <tusho_> Why when I can just go back using time machine, and copy over a folder?
19:39:31 <alexbobp> oklopol: As it turns out, in both Linux and Windows you can look up where exactly on an HD the file exists.
19:39:34 <tusho_> You have to know the XML format.
19:39:42 <oklopol> alexbobp: yes, but is that at all useful?
19:39:52 <alexbobp> lament: It's not more work, it's just as easy but requires more expertise.
19:40:01 <lament> alexbobp: no, it is more work
19:40:08 <lament> alexbobp: it will take more time
19:40:09 <tusho_> I'M AN EXPERT BECAUSE I CAN MERGE XML FILES
19:40:16 <alexbobp> lament: I'm sorry, you're wrong, it won't, and insisting won't make you right.
19:40:21 <tusho_> I AM SO FUCKING ELITE AND YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS BECAUSE YOU DON'T SPENT YOUR WHOLE DAY MERGING XML FILES
19:40:26 <tusho_> INSTEAD YOU JUST DRAG ACROSS BOOKMARKS
19:40:27 <alexbobp> tusho_: having some expertise does not make one an expert
19:40:30 <lament> alexbobp: oh, okay then.
19:40:30 <tusho_> WTF IS UP WITH THAT NOOBS
19:40:33 <alexbobp> tusho_: stop typing in all caps you asshat
19:40:49 <tusho_> alexbobp: telling _me_ to stop being an asshat...?
19:40:58 <tusho_> You're saying people who don't spend all time merging a custom XML format have less expertise.
19:41:08 <alexbobp> tusho_: Uh, no, I never said that.
19:41:16 <tusho_> "it's just as easy but requires more expertise."
19:41:31 <alexbobp> tusho_: Quote me on where I said anything about "all time" or even it taking longer at all.
19:41:48 <tusho_> It's a waste of effort.
19:41:55 <tusho_> I can also guarantee that one of these takes more time:
19:42:03 <tusho_> 1. Click time machine. Scroll back. Drag bookmark over.
19:42:22 <tusho_> 2. Restore file. Find correct bookmark. Copy to current file, making sure not to break the format. Save. Restart and hope for the best.
19:42:28 <tusho_> I can also tell you that it's #2.
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19:42:40 <alexbobp> tusho_: I can do #2 with one line of grep and sed.
19:42:52 <tusho_> alexbobp: It still takes longer than click, swish, drag.
19:43:00 <tusho_> And it's also a whole lot less convenient.
19:43:06 <lament> alexbobp: by the way, are you guaranteed to have stored the old version of the bookmark file at all?
19:43:14 <alexbobp> tusho_: mice are slow, and you still have to find the bookmark where you lost in the blob of deleted bookmarks
19:43:21 <tusho_> Mice aren't slow, by the way.
19:43:28 <tusho_> (Go read a Plan9 paper.)
19:43:35 <alexbobp> lament: It depends on whether there was a backup between me making the bookmark and deleting it.
19:43:42 <lament> alexbobp: right, exactly
19:43:48 <alexbobp> tusho_: My hands are on the keyboard most of the time, so it takes time to move them to the mouse.
19:43:48 <lament> with time machine this would happen automatically
19:44:03 <alexbobp> lament: does time machine backup every time a file is changed?
19:44:04 <tusho_> alexbobp: Zomg! Using a mouse incorrectly is slower!
19:44:14 <lament> alexbobp: i believe so
19:44:16 <tusho_> Learn to use a mouse with a keyboard efficiently and you will be faster.
19:44:29 <alexbobp> tusho_: I like just using the keyboard when I can, how is that "wrong"?
19:44:34 <alexbobp> tusho_: I don't need a mouse for most of what I do.
19:44:39 <tusho_> alexbobp: Claiming that mice are slow is incorrect.
19:44:41 <alexbobp> I'm typing right now, and I also code, and read email and stuff
19:45:12 <Deewiant> mice are fast for accessing an arbitrary point on the screen
19:45:18 <alexbobp> * for the way I use my computer. Your mileage may vary. This disclaimer necessary due to tusho_.
19:45:22 <Deewiant> I just find I don't have to do that often
19:46:05 <Deewiant> fortunately, fingers are slower
19:46:06 <alexbobp> lament: only if your hand is on the mouse
19:46:08 <lament> editing text without a mouse is a huge pain
19:46:17 <alexbobp> lament: editing text without a mouse works fine, actually
19:46:23 <Deewiant> I rarely, if ever, use the mouse for editing text
19:46:28 <tusho_> Oh oh, alexbobp, what editor do you use?
19:46:32 <tusho_> Let's start another holy war.
19:46:42 <tusho_> alexbobp: 38d8ah4naodu
19:46:51 <alexbobp> tusho_: I don't think that's a real editor :P
19:46:52 <tusho_> BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
19:47:00 <oklopol> it would be fun to have like ten keys for a mouse, you have the whole screen selected, and pressing one of the keys splits the screen in nine pieces, and chooses one of them for the next selection
19:47:00 <tusho_> hello wBEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
19:47:03 <tusho_> BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
19:47:08 <oklopol> and another key for getting upwards
19:47:12 <lament> alexbobp: i find it very difficult to navigate to some random portion of the text, already on the screen, without a mouse
19:47:18 <tusho_> oklopol: that has been implemented
19:47:27 <tusho_> it divides it into 4 spaces
19:47:28 <alexbobp> oklopol: There are tools that do that. I know Dragon NaturallySpeaking does that with voice cues.
19:47:31 <tusho_> and divide that further
19:47:35 <tusho_> until you get in the vicinity
19:47:39 <tusho_> where you can precisely move and click
19:47:43 <alexbobp> lament: okay, that's nice, but I don't. I don't see how that means I'm doing it wrong.
19:47:46 <lament> that is, it's -much- faster to move the hand to the mouse, click on the correct position and move the hand back to the keyboard than it is to try to navigate there using the keyboard alone
19:48:17 <lament> alexbobp: i never said you're doing it wrong. I'm getting more and more convinced that you're a supergenius.
19:48:34 <tusho_> oklopol: you should implement an x window manager with all your crazy ui ideas.
19:48:35 <oklopol> tusho_: implementing it takes about a minute, i'm more interested in how handy that would be
19:48:38 <oklopol> do you have info about that?
19:48:41 <tusho_> and apparently it's pretty handy
19:48:48 <tusho_> not for specific moving
19:48:52 <tusho_> but getting to the 'right place' roughly fast
19:49:07 <lament> you probably instantly calculate the number of words you need to move forward or backward and move to the correct position with something like 237w
19:49:34 <lament> trying to get to the position you want in vim is a lot like golf
19:49:39 <alexbobp> lament: I just need to count the number of lines, and you don't wasd in vim :P
19:49:42 <lament> first you do big jumps, then little jumps
19:49:44 <Deewiant> what I'd do is look at the line number and type <number>gg
19:49:45 <oklopol> i have quite a lot of ui ideas, but as with all my ideas, they've been thought of, implemented and gotten bored with before i was born.
19:50:17 <lament> Deewiant: that doesn't get you to the correct position. It just gets you to the correct line.
19:50:24 <alexbobp> lament: I would like a copy of your version of vim. Mine apparently is not as much like a first person shooter as yours.
19:50:27 <lament> alexbobp: 'w' means 'move to the end of the word'.
19:50:42 <Deewiant> after that, getting to the correct position is quick
19:51:02 <tusho_> ok, alexbobp has been using vim for...24 hours, I'll say
19:51:06 <tusho_> if he just uses hjkl to navigate
19:51:13 <tusho_> 24 hours is pushing it really.
19:51:18 <alexbobp> tusho_: Lot more hours than that, actually, but I still find it faster than moving my hand to the mouse
19:51:38 <lament> alexbobp: don't you have to move your hand to the esc key to use hjkl?
19:51:47 <tusho_> lament: when using vim I use ctrl-c
19:51:58 <alexbobp> lament: If "move my hand" means "move my pinky" then yes.
19:52:01 <lament> tusho_: you know that, and i know that, but i doubt alexbobp knows that.
19:52:14 <tusho_> lament: well yeah. hjkl!
19:52:27 <pikhq> I was about to ask how anyone could use Vi without moving Esc to, say, Caps Lock...
19:52:38 <lament> i can't press Esc without moving my hand from the home row
19:52:46 <lament> maybe i need to get one of them happy hacking keyboards
19:52:46 <Deewiant> except that it doesn't work on Windows :-P
19:52:51 <tusho_> I never could use ctrl=caps-lock.
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19:52:53 <tusho_> Just not comfortable for me.
19:52:55 <lament> then i will be a real hacker
19:52:59 <tusho_> (Then again, my hands aren't exactly big..)
19:53:14 <pikhq> Caps-Lock does not exist here.
19:53:17 <lament> tusho_: even less comfortable than "real" ctrl?
19:53:29 <tusho_> lament: I type really bizzarely, so ctrl is comfortable for me
19:53:30 * alexbobp realizes he needs to revisit vimtutor
19:54:00 * alexbobp deletes multiple lines by holding down the "d" key
19:54:22 <tusho_> alexbobp: Well, you're truly showing your mastery of interface design.
19:54:27 <lament> tusho_: i saw an awesome keyboard from an old mac
19:54:47 <pikhq> Bah; use C-k to delete multiple lines.
19:54:48 <alexbobp> tusho_: Did I ever say I was good at vim? All I said was that I'm better at it than I am with a mouse.
19:54:57 <lament> it had ctrl and capslock where nature intended, and capslock would actually stick down when pressed
19:54:58 <pikhq> Or, if you know the exact number, C-u number C-k
19:55:08 <lament> i still regret not stealing it :D
19:55:25 <lament> (it would need some work to make modern computers talk to it, though)
19:55:40 <alexbobp> okay, you guys are distracting and I have to get back to work
19:55:53 <tusho_> why are you on irc if you are trying to work lament
20:07:29 <SimonRC> lament: I have seen suns with ctrl and caps the "other" way round
20:07:50 <tusho_> Hmm. I want a 3d iterated game theory simulator.
20:07:53 <lament> would be nice to have a keyboard like that
20:08:20 <lament> there's a little groove between capslock and A
20:08:30 <pikhq> Not *quite* the same, obviously, but it does give you a feel for what it's like.
20:08:35 <lament> that groove is there because they realized that that was a stupid place to put capslock
20:08:40 <lament> so they made it harder to hit accidentally
20:08:50 <pikhq> I just have Caps Lock set to be a third Control, myself.
20:08:50 <lament> ctrl doesn't need that groove
20:09:04 <lament> i do have capslock set to ctrl
20:09:10 <lament> but that groove is annoying :)
20:09:11 <SimonRC> what is capslock good for?
20:09:27 <SimonRC> lament: pry key off, rotate 180deg, put back on
20:09:27 <pikhq> Well, except for sounding like an idiot.
20:09:31 <lament> a whole bunch of buttons would be good on rare occasions
20:09:42 <lament> but the keyboard doesn't have those buttons
20:09:57 <Deewiant> keyboards should have more buttons
20:09:59 <pikhq> tusho_: Next man to make a language which is all-caps gets shot.
20:09:59 <lament> like, i want a smiley button that types :)
20:10:05 <pikhq> Even in the esolang world.
20:10:06 <lament> because :) is three whole keypresses!
20:10:39 <lament> pikhq: you mean lolcode people shouldn't be shot?
20:10:53 <SimonRC> well, INTERCAL's use of all-caps was standard for its time
20:10:54 <pikhq> lament: Because I don't want to start on a killing spree.
20:11:17 <pikhq> And the LOLcode people need to be shot for reasons other than just its all-caps.
20:11:34 <lament> SimonRC: sorry, friendly fire
20:11:51 <pikhq> SimonRC: You're first up.
20:11:54 <tusho_> LOLcode is NOT friendly fire.
20:12:27 <pikhq> Sorry; thought you were saying "but I am involved in LOLcode".
20:12:53 <tusho_> SimonRC is involved in LOLcode - he helped make the 1.2 specification horrible.
20:12:56 <SimonRC> all I did was try to sabotage it
20:13:07 <SimonRC> and that was the first version only
20:13:25 <lament> maybe you did deserve the shooting after all.
20:13:39 <tusho_> lament: what? He tried to sabotage it
20:14:36 <pikhq> That's not being responsible for it.
20:14:37 <lament> how can you sabotage lolcode?
20:14:57 <pikhq> That's taking the shotgun into your own hands and firing.
20:16:38 <SimonRC> Complaining that LOLCODE is a bad esolang is like complaining that a radio play has poor illustrations.
20:16:56 <lament> does lolcode have zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms?
20:17:42 <SimonRC> you've been hanging aroud with that video compression crowd again haven't you?
20:18:05 <SimonRC> video compression has the world's best technobabble by far, IME
20:18:21 <lament> no, that's just normal haskell stuff :)
20:19:02 <Deewiant> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Zygohistomorphic_prepromorphisms
20:19:12 <SimonRC> "Hey, $developer, your new adaptive quantization patch results in a corrupt stream when interlaced encoding is activated! We use interlaced encoding for our live broadcasts, so though your adaptive quantization patch looks astounding, we can't use it until you fix this."
20:19:21 <SimonRC> "Logarithmically-scaled variance-based complexity-masking adaptive quantization with Hadamard-weighted automatic sensitivity."
20:19:26 <SimonRC> Hadamard-thresholded rate-distortion optimized inter-macroblock partition decision"
20:19:32 <SimonRC> Rate-distortion optimized quantizer lookahead with adaptive range and scenecut detection."
20:19:37 <tusho_> SimonRC: Put that shit in a markov chain generator!
20:20:02 <pikhq> SimonRC: Actually, complaining that LOLcode is a bad esolang is like complaining that a rotten grilled cheese sandwich has poor illustrations.
20:20:25 <SimonRC> from here: http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/7711/143632.aspx
20:20:46 <tusho_> RodgerTheGreat: it's actually real
20:20:46 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: alas, that is several hoops past comprehending monads
20:20:56 <tusho_> albeit only used by the guy who does crazy shit with comonads
20:21:02 <tusho_> and monomorphisms and shit
20:21:03 <SimonRC> pikhq: indeed, it isn't supposed to
20:21:23 <Deewiant> isn't that only half-serious anyway
20:21:31 <pikhq> SimonRC: LOLcode just sucks, to be perfectly honest.
20:21:38 <lament> SimonRC: all those quotes are pretty legible, i think...
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20:22:05 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: yeah, it looks like a shitty skin for BASIC, really. Not terribly creative in semantics
20:22:13 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: co- is used everywhere in math for the dual
20:22:34 <lament> or at least, in some places
20:23:23 <tusho_> RodgerTheGreat: once I did some wacky gadt stuff in haskell to implement monads
20:23:29 <tusho_> since Monad was taken I named it Gonad
20:23:31 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: Goshdarnit people; LOLCODE was never intended to have interesting semantics.
20:23:38 <tusho_> when I asked #haskell for help, cue 'you just want us to look at your gonads'
20:23:50 <SimonRC> it is supposed to have interesting keywords and to a lesser extent syntax
20:23:51 <tusho_> "can anyone look at my gonads? they're broken"
20:24:16 <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: yeah, I know. it's just a clusterfuck of python and VB people thinking they're being "creative"
20:24:25 <SimonRC> it is supposed to have *lolcat* keywords
20:24:34 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: do they think that?
20:24:42 <RodgerTheGreat> not entirely unlike everyone who screams "whitespace LOL" when somebody mentions "strange languages"
20:25:04 <tusho_> RodgerTheGreat: Those people are pretty clever.
20:25:08 <tusho_> It's the ones who mention Brainfuck that are the problem.
20:25:37 <SimonRC> BF is stranger than most languages people come across.
20:25:46 <RodgerTheGreat> whitespace is a trivial isomorphism of BF. you're either being sarcastic or you're an idiot.
20:26:03 <SimonRC> um, whitespace isn't based on BF
20:26:05 <tusho_> RodgerTheGreat: Whitespace isn't a BF cypher.
20:26:11 <tusho_> Also, it's pretty obscure as these things go.
20:26:38 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: "python and vb"? what's that supposed to mean? :D
20:27:13 * SimonRC references the author of WS, who he has known for a few years
20:27:16 <lament> there's nothing wrong with whitespace other than popularity
20:27:23 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, dang. I'm mistaken. I think I came to that conclusion because it's encoding scheme looked a lot like Ook! at first.
20:27:23 <tusho_> whitespace isn't even popular!
20:28:45 <alexbobp> I can't program in whitespace because I have to use SNOW on all my programs...
20:28:55 <olsner> tusho_: hey, whitespaces are everywhere! *ten* whitespaces in this line only!
20:29:08 <tusho_> SimonRC: http://www.darkside.com.au/snow/
20:29:30 <SimonRC> tusho_: on the source or the binaries?
20:29:39 <alexbobp> SimonRC: It's a stego tool, except in no way hard to detect :P
20:29:40 <tusho_> SimonRC: source, I presume
20:29:44 <lament> this sentence has seven spaces and eight words
20:29:48 <tusho_> SimonRC: whitespace in binaries _generally_ stops them running
20:29:55 <alexbobp> SimonRC: it would have to be the source. Modifying whitespace in binaries would mangle them.
20:30:05 <SimonRC> alexbobp: that was the joke I was making
20:30:14 <tusho_> SimonRC: it wasn't ... very funny
20:30:16 <lament> alexbobp: you 'have' to use it?
20:30:35 <alexbobp> lament: It is absolutely necessary.
20:30:46 <alexbobp> I have quotas for the data I have to hide, and I barely have enough places to hide it.
20:31:26 <SimonRC> Hmm, "SNOW" is too readily discoverable by the fraction of the populatio that habitually highlight random blocks of text as they read.
20:31:40 <lament> SimonRC: we could shoot all those people
20:31:48 <alexbobp> SimonRC: yeah, it's not good stego
20:32:19 <SimonRC> I hope not; one of them is the best comprehender of one of the systems I work on.
20:32:20 <alexbobp> lament: good idea... we could also use nonbreaking spaces and murder everyone with a hex viewer!
20:32:21 <tusho_> Also I grab links and drag them
20:32:25 <tusho_> and leave go so they shoot back
20:32:33 <tusho_> also I often cmd-a and drag it around
20:32:37 <tusho_> in ff3 it gives me a little version of the page
20:33:02 <alexbobp> RodgerTheGreat: it's been mentioned :P
20:33:08 <tusho_> alexbobp: how about using unicode rtl characters
20:33:11 <tusho_> and reversing the text in them
20:33:13 <pikhq> You could probably get a good way of steganography on binaries by sticking stuff in .data and .bss...
20:33:25 <alexbobp> tusho_: That somehow gets really crazy sometimes
20:33:48 <pikhq> Though it'd be easiest (and most undetectable) to do stuff like that to encode a single message inside a whole installed OS.
20:34:32 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: you already know *my* favorite place to hide data
20:34:51 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: umm, where
20:35:05 <pikhq> Let's just say that Rodger knows the .tiff format way too well.
20:35:27 <RodgerTheGreat> http://rodger.nonlogic.org/PHP/Example.php <- go ahead and find out
20:37:09 <tusho_> RodgerTheGreat why did you make it a 403
20:37:15 <tusho_> it was more confusing as a 404
20:37:26 <SimonRC> experience shows that I am shit at that sort of puzzle
20:37:35 <tusho_> ok, I seem to remember a 404
20:37:35 <SimonRC> they serve only to infuriate me
20:37:41 <pikhq> The first couple of pages are meant to be easy to get past.
20:37:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I changed something else to give people a tiny hint, though
20:38:01 <pikhq> I'm especially fond of the Gulesfish.
20:38:19 <RodgerTheGreat> gulesfish and basil are the most hideous, but gules is a great deal more clever
20:38:42 <tusho_> gulesfish was quite nice
20:38:58 <SimonRC> but, should you want me to quit this channel and never come back, a sufficiently large number of puzzless that everyone else can solve and I cannot would be one of the better ways to make it happen.
20:39:12 <tusho_> SimonRC: we'll get right on it
20:39:40 <pikhq> SimonRC: Those puzzles are fucking hard; don't consider it a bad thing if you can't get them.
20:39:55 <alexbobp> RodgerTheGreat: I'm getting a connection refused
20:40:07 <SimonRC> alexbobp: that's the first hurdle#
20:40:18 <alexbobp> SimonRC: ooh, is this a hacker game?
20:40:24 <SimonRC> pikhq: so several other people here are capable of solving the damn things and I am not
20:40:55 <pikhq> SimonRC: I'm not aware of many people in here that finished Basil.
20:41:05 <pikhq> I think 2 other people have finished Basil...
20:41:30 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: how can one cheat?
20:41:47 <RodgerTheGreat> if you had admin access and could cat out my PHP files
20:42:20 <tusho_> alexbobp: it's really trivial.
20:42:43 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: that doesn't *solve* the puzzle as such, but in deed the app can't tell
20:42:49 <tusho_> but he was going in totally the wrong way
20:42:55 <tusho_> connection refused != 403
20:43:01 <tusho_> connection refused = no connection was even made to the http server
20:44:10 <RodgerTheGreat> but honestly, it's surprising how many people seem to find it perfectly normal to be getting apache error pages from "port 69"
20:44:44 <alexbobp> RodgerTheGreat: I'm getting a connection refused on port 69
20:45:13 <RodgerTheGreat> alexbobp: you have completely ignored easy advice and hints from several people already, so I'm not helping you any more
20:45:14 <alexbobp> alex@server-fo-shizzle:~$ nc rodger.nonlogic.org 69
20:45:14 <alexbobp> rodger.nonlogic.org [208.64.37.45] 69 (?) : Connection refused
20:45:39 <alexbobp> RodgerTheGreat: I got the port 42 thing on the other thing
20:45:44 <tusho_> alexbobp: you're an elite h4x0r that's for sure
20:46:04 <pikhq> "You must be at least this geeky to go on further."
20:46:29 * alexbobp just realized those two hostnames have the same IP
20:47:42 <psygnisfive> hey guys hpw about we talk about interesting languages? :D
20:48:08 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I bet it'll take him a while. Should be damned hilarious to watch, though.
20:48:24 <tusho_> "DO I HAVE TO BUY BASIL IRL TO BEAT THIS"
20:49:40 * pikhq shall go off to get the @!#%@ home; see ya in about an hour.
20:49:46 -!- pikhq has left (?).
20:49:49 <RodgerTheGreat> one of these days, I should add some additional puzzles, but I'm not sure if I should put their trailheads after basil or make a diverging path, to be halfway humane
20:49:58 <tusho_> RodgerTheGreat: make it branch out
20:50:09 <tusho_> each 'milestone' branches out into, like, 2 possible paths
20:50:13 <oklopol> how many puzzles does it have?
20:50:19 <tusho_> and at the end you have like 10 paths
20:50:22 <alexbobp> where do I find a brainfuck interpreter?
20:50:23 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, maybe have a "solve these x puzzles in any order" segment
20:50:26 <tusho_> and the last puzzle on each of them unifies them all to the last one
20:50:30 <tusho_> which is super-duper hard
20:51:42 <tusho_> RodgerTheGreat: maybe some of them will let you go -backwards-, but on another path
20:51:48 <tusho_> and you have to do some puzzles from all of the paths to do it
20:51:56 <RodgerTheGreat> I'd love teaming up with one or two people to make a game like that, but it'd reduce my gleeful plotting time and my audience
20:51:56 <tusho_> so you sort of navigate it like a ladder with puzzles at each step
20:51:57 <SimonRC> it shall divide people into the leet and the unleet
20:52:03 <tusho_> then add them all together for the final puzzle
20:52:07 <tusho_> you could make a team to do different paths
20:52:33 <SimonRC> I don't like being the unleet, yet I do not generally like being the leet
20:53:19 <RodgerTheGreat> tusho_: oh, don't worry- I have oodles of ideas floating around
20:53:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I actually have a couple of pretty nasty tricks up my sleeves I haven't used in any puzzles yet
20:54:27 <SimonRC> I don't like being the unleet, yet I do not generally manage to become the leet
20:57:34 <alexbobp> RodgerTheGreat: I see you're a mac user?
20:57:47 <lament> basil is the one that at some point just becomes fucked up silly?
20:57:49 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: at puzzles that most people cannot do
20:58:01 <tusho_> we have an awful lot of mac users in here
20:58:10 <tusho_> lament, me, psygnisfive, RodgerTheGreat ...
20:58:17 <tusho_> we have good taste, evidently ;)
20:58:17 <alexbobp> RodgerTheGreat: I can tell because it craps ".DS_Store" all over the place :P
20:58:48 <tusho_> psygnisfive: um... since forever
20:58:55 <tusho_> december 2006 I think?
20:59:33 <lament> tusho_: it's a channel full of fags
21:00:00 <lament> macs are for fags, little children, and idiots.
21:00:08 * SimonRC resents the implication that he is a smoker
21:00:13 <alexbobp> lament: oh, be nice, there's nothing wrong with being gay
21:00:34 <lament> psygnisfive: no, i'm an idiot.
21:01:34 <alexbobp> lament: I know plenty of gay people who don't use a mac.
21:02:19 <lament> psygnisfive: i mean, i wish i could, but i don't think i can control it!
21:02:21 <oklopol> alexbobp: implication != equivalence
21:02:34 <alexbobp> oklopol: (15:00:42) lament: you have to use a mac
21:02:36 <SimonRC> them and their hatred has left no room for people that are actually scared of homosexuality
21:02:47 <SimonRC> or rather has left no word for it
21:03:05 <SimonRC> fortunately I am not in that category as much as I used to be
21:03:32 <SimonRC> working with someone who is gay has made me less twitchy around gay people
21:03:44 <SimonRC> now I just need a blasck co-worker
21:04:39 <alexbobp> Or you could just watch the weathergay.
21:04:56 <lament> a black, gay, jewish coworker with a mullet.
21:05:09 <alexbobp> http://youtube.com/watch?v=TT4XO3Hjp7M
21:05:26 <alexbobp> psygnisfive: If so, I want pictures!
21:05:27 <lament> it would be pretty gay!
21:10:25 <SimonRC> (as in, what are you inking?)
21:11:21 <SimonRC> you were saying that you thought someone might have cheated on the Basil puzzle?
21:12:53 <SimonRC> *prod* but they had to be an admin, 'cause it isn't world-readable
21:14:13 <SimonRC> well, what about the big fat world-readable file called "website.tar.gz" that's right next to the non-world-readable directory?
21:15:55 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a puzzle. The point of the thing is to work to solve it.
21:16:18 <tusho_> RodgerTheGreat: he was just joking...
21:16:28 <SimonRC> of course, there should be no reason that the basil puzzle's source needs to be secret
21:17:17 <SimonRC> if one were to just store md5's of the password that one must enter, you *could* make basil's source public
21:17:28 <SimonRC> um, wait, I am treating you like an idiot
21:17:37 <SimonRC> sorry, you must do that already
21:18:24 <tusho_> SimonRC: I believe the term is Swhack. :P
21:19:02 <tusho_> SimonRC: Canada was the nomic played in #ircnomic (now ##nomic).
21:19:05 <SimonRC> (seriously, I didn't get the "lolcanada" message until after I said "eh?)
21:19:09 <tusho_> By me, ihope, AnMaster, and quite a few other people.
21:19:17 <tusho_> Swhacks were voluntary point deduction.
21:19:23 <tusho_> If you thought someone did something silly, you could swhack them.
21:19:31 <tusho_> If they accepted it, a point was transferred from them to you.
21:20:35 <tusho_> AnMaster: I was talking about canad
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21:26:50 <oklopol> heh, i can't solve even the first puzzle :D
21:27:10 <oklopol> not that i really tried, since i don't have a clue what to do
21:27:12 <tusho_> oklopol: pages are made of html
21:27:37 <lament> that's your other clue!
21:28:02 <SimonRC> I respond poorly to lack of clues of progress.
21:28:17 <tusho_> SimonRC: Where are you up to?
21:28:26 <alexbobp> oklopol: It's the kind of "puzzle" that's actually a treasure hunt for information and not a puzzle.
21:28:28 <oklopol> actually, i did solve the first one
21:28:43 <lament> basil is the one with a huge tif, right?
21:28:48 <oklopol> yeah it was a different kind than i thought, that was extremely trivial
21:29:16 <tusho_> of course the first one is
21:29:19 <SimonRC> It is like a game of hot-cold where, if you are on the spot, you get "hot", and if you are anywhere else in the planet, you get "cold".
21:29:20 <tusho_> oklopol: which bit are you up to
21:30:12 <lament> yeah, i wouldn't call it a 'puzzle'
21:30:16 <oklopol> tusho_: i just opened the page like a minute ago
21:30:27 <tusho_> oklopol: have you got past the first page
21:30:30 <tusho_> onto the page that looks the asme
21:30:45 <lament> gulesfish is a puzzle, basil didn't seem to be one
21:30:55 <oklopol> well yeah, right away, once i figured it wasn't actually a hacker task, but, err, a puzzle
21:31:02 <SimonRC> lament: "didn't seem to be a puzzle"?
21:31:05 <tusho_> lament: the puzzle is figuring out what to actually do.
21:31:13 <tusho_> oklopol: why not use the same tatctic again
21:31:33 <oklopol> tusho_: have i said i can't solve the second one?
21:31:41 <tusho_> oklopol: define 'second one'
21:31:48 <tusho_> well, how did you solve the first one?
21:31:49 <lament> tusho_: it didn't seem to be a puzzle. blind guessing isn't a puzzle. It seemed like blind guessing.
21:31:59 <oklopol> tusho_: err, i read the source
21:32:10 <SimonRC> lament: that is reassuring to hear
21:32:11 <tusho_> these two are really the entry puzzles
21:32:21 <tusho_> gulesfish & basil are the real hard ones
21:32:31 <tusho_> 1. you used tactic T on the previous page
21:32:40 <tusho_> 2. this page looks 100% the same as the previous page
21:32:44 <oklopol> so... err... i simply have to solve them because they're simple? :D
21:32:52 <tusho_> oklopol: so view the source on the second one!!!!
21:33:02 <oklopol> wtf, didn't i just say the second one is fucking trivial too
21:33:07 <oklopol> 23:31… oklopol: tusho_: have i said i can't solve the second one?
21:33:08 <SimonRC> I thought oklopol already did these puzzles
21:33:17 <tusho_> "have i said i can't solve the second one?"
21:33:21 <tusho_> if you can't solve it, how is it trivial
21:33:36 <oklopol> someone help me with english
21:33:40 <tusho_> oklopol:"have i said i can't solve the second one?"
21:33:43 <oklopol> my language skills have disappeared
21:33:46 <tusho_> "I am unable to solve the second puzzle."
21:33:52 <lament> oklopol: no, your english is fine
21:33:53 <SimonRC> it is trivial, so he not "can't solve it", so he didn't say he "can't solve it"
21:33:54 <tusho_> "The second puzzle is really easy."
21:33:55 <lament> tusho_: read it again.
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21:34:08 <oklopol> tusho_: i'd've said "have i mentioned..."
21:34:16 <oklopol> not that that would've made any sense
21:34:18 <tusho_> oklopol: ok, so you're on to gulesfish?
21:34:48 <oklopol> no i'm in the second puzzle, read source, was sure about the answer, and went on with my life
21:35:03 <tusho_> oklopol: but ... the third one is the first actually hard one.
21:35:18 <tusho_> these are really just obstacles to start it off.
21:35:27 <oklopol> ...so i just have to solve the second one so i can fail at that?
21:35:50 <oklopol> let's imagine a puzzle with a big red button saying "press this for level 2"
21:35:51 <tusho_> not if you actually try and solve it
21:36:00 <oklopol> i wouldn't necessarily press that.
21:36:14 <oklopol> because, err, i don't especially like puzzles
21:36:14 <lament> oklopol: the reason the first two puzzles are there is so people who fail at the third still have somebody to laugh at.
21:36:37 <oklopol> right, well i can already laugh at those who don't know what GET is
21:36:38 <SimonRC> the art with these things is not to make them hard, but to make them hard yet cause people to consider themselves blithering idiots if/when they find (out) the answer
21:37:18 <oklopol> i like puzzles where i know exactly what to do, but not how to do it
21:37:25 <oklopol> more like, write a program that does X
21:37:31 <oklopol> this is also called programming
21:37:54 <SimonRC> oklopol: and even better, some kind of indicator that you are going the right direction
21:38:00 -!- alexbobp has left (?).
21:38:24 <oklopol> SimonRC: well when i know exactly what to do, i can just supply that heuristic myself
21:39:03 <SimonRC> anyway, solved it though I haven't, Basil will greatly increase my future appreciation of H.P. Lovecraft and similar...
21:39:09 <lament> psygnisfive: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/PHP/Example.php
21:39:27 <lament> psygnisfive: it's what we're talking about.
21:39:47 <oklopol> psygnisfive: it's a puzzle
21:39:53 <lament> we can spend _hours_ talking about a Forbidden page.
21:39:54 <SimonRC> ... because I will truly be able to believe that a single enigma can drive one to complete insanity in a week or two
21:39:54 <tusho_> it's just a very pretty forbidden page
21:40:15 <tusho_> psygnisfive: what is there that you don't consider stupid?
21:40:25 <SimonRC> just but looking at the effect it had on me over a day or two
21:40:40 <lament> SimonRC: did you actually parse the tif and stuff?
21:40:51 <SimonRC> lament: I looked at the size of the tiff
21:41:03 <oklopol> psygnisfive: i tried to install a c++ compiler today
21:41:10 <SimonRC> the picture is in bitmap form
21:41:42 <SimonRC> not, as artifacts suggest, a jpeggy form
21:42:36 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: I read the wikipedos article and I thought it said it can be compressed sometimes
21:43:03 <tusho_> psygnisfive: you really hate brainfuck don't you
21:43:10 <SimonRC> damn you, you are trying to make me look at it again aren't you!
21:43:41 <tusho_> psygnisfive: so what, its just an entry puzzle
21:43:45 <tusho_> gulesfish and basil are the real puzzles
21:46:17 <SimonRC> ah, that may muck up the puzzle
21:47:01 <SimonRC> elf is a binary program format
21:47:28 <psygnisfive> well thats as far as im going in this game.
21:47:43 <psygnisfive> im not running a binary from some weirdo like rodger! :o
21:47:48 <tusho_> i'd say something relevant here
21:47:52 <tusho_> but RodgerTheGreat would kill me for spoilers
21:49:02 <RodgerTheGreat> but there's already enough information here to get past that if he was paying close attention
21:49:25 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: who managed to solve it without your help?
21:51:31 <oklopol> tusho_: i solved the second one, are you happy?
21:52:02 <oklopol> you AREN'T?? oh god what do i have to do to get you happy?!?
21:52:11 <tusho_> oklopol: this channel is pg-13!
21:52:18 <SimonRC> remind me what the first four puzzles are again?
21:52:37 <SimonRC> or however many it is up to gules
21:52:52 <psygnisfive> rodger, tusho_ i presume its possible to run ELFs on a mac?
21:53:31 <tusho_> when I did it i ran it with my brain
21:54:57 <tusho_> psygnisfive: you're overthinking
21:56:16 <RodgerTheGreat> the general hint I give for all these puzzles is that none of them require specialized tools, any particular operating system or any ridiculously specialized skills to solve
21:56:39 <SimonRC> well, not specialised for *here*
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21:56:44 <RodgerTheGreat> every single one can be easily broken by a novice in less than 5 minutes if they know what they're doing
21:57:23 <RodgerTheGreat> this is what makes them "fair". I could've done hideous puzzles that are nigh-impossible, but that's really lame
21:57:23 <lament> SimonRC: artifacts could easily be because the image in the TIF was originally a JPEG.
21:57:56 <RodgerTheGreat> or subtly added by my own malicious processing. Muahaha!
21:58:07 <SimonRC> one can go down 1000 5-minute dead-ends before finding the right path though
21:58:50 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: suppose i give you a 10000-page book and the solution is written on the margins of some page. This "puzzle" requires no tools ot solve and can be solved in a second!
21:59:10 <SimonRC> but the simplicity of the hidden technique to answer them is what is the art of your puzzles is
21:59:31 <RodgerTheGreat> lament: now you're just pissing and moaning. I made a game for you guys to enjoy. Play it and have fun or do something else and shut the hell up.
21:59:53 <SimonRC> as I said a while back, the answer must be simple enough to make one feel like an idiot when the answer is found (out).
22:00:57 <tusho_> psygnisfive: 6 i think
22:01:31 <psygnisfive> well 3 is pointlessly hard from my perspective.
22:01:33 <ihope> I guess I should figure out a way to back up Normish before tusho requires it.
22:02:12 <lament> psygnisfive: what's 3?
22:02:29 <psygnisfive> unless we're counting from 0, in which case its 2
22:02:33 <tusho_> psygnisfive: what does gules mean
22:02:34 <lament> isn't basil right after gulesfish?
22:02:52 <tusho_> psygnisfive: what do you normally do when you don't know what a word means.
22:02:59 <ihope> Gules sounds like... what's it called...
22:03:13 <ihope> Blazon, that's it.
22:03:19 <psygnisfive> i thought it was some silly name rodger came up with
22:03:25 <SimonRC> in this context, one might reasonably assume it is a meaningless proper noun
22:03:27 <lament> ihope: yep, it's a blazon tincture
22:03:42 <ihope> As in "Tierced palewise sable, argent, and sable, charged with a quill and an axe in saltire, proper, and in the chief a capital letter A, gules."
22:03:55 <lament> we need a blazon esolang
22:04:06 <lament> blazons are the first vector graphics format
22:04:11 <SimonRC> see, if one applies logic, one can easily get led up the garden path
22:04:15 <lament> with human-readable representation, too!
22:04:23 <psygnisfive> "In heraldry, gules (pronounced with a hard 'g') is the tincture with the colour red, and belongs to the class of dark tinctures called "colours". In engraving, it is sometimes depicted as a region of vertical lines or else marked with gu. as an abbreviation."
22:04:32 <SimonRC> blazons are symbolic, not vector
22:05:02 <lament> psygnisfive: nothing, really. it's not much of a hint.
22:05:06 <tusho_> psygnisfive: what color is it
22:05:19 <ihope> One fish, two fish, gulesfish, azurefish?
22:05:23 <lament> psygnisfive: at least, i got stuck on the puzzle for a while while fully aware of the implications.
22:05:31 <lament> i don't think it's a hint at all :)
22:05:49 <ihope> Argent is silver and sable is black, right?
22:06:06 <SimonRC> ah, I found an analogy that lament might like...
22:06:23 <lament> SimonRC: careful, RodgerTheGreat might abuse you if you say it
22:06:58 <SimonRC> these puzzles are like a maze: any fool can walk fast enough to get through it in 5 minutes
22:07:18 <SimonRC> (*cough* knowing the route *cough*)
22:07:25 <RodgerTheGreat> but they'd be completely missing the point of the maze
22:07:33 <psygnisfive> any fool and do it in 5 minutes, but it takes a special kind of genius to get completely stuck :D
22:07:45 <lament> i kinda like gules, i failed at solving it without help and did feel like an idiot afterwards
22:08:14 <RodgerTheGreat> it's one of my favorite puzzles because it has so many layers that fit together
22:08:21 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: you are at a disadvantage; you have no clue how hard the puzzles are if one doesn't knoe that answer
22:08:28 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: gules?
22:08:47 <lament> psygnisfive: it means red. it's the color red.
22:08:47 <ihope> So where are these puzzles?
22:09:01 <lament> ihope: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/PHP/Example.php
22:09:05 <psygnisfive> thats stupid why would you use gules to represent the color red
22:09:15 <lament> because it's a puzzle.
22:09:19 <tusho_> because otherwise it would be trivial.
22:09:37 <lament> tusho_: i knew from the beginning what gulesfish meant and still got stuck on the puzzle.
22:09:38 <ihope> So, "gulesfish" is not a hint at all.
22:09:44 <lament> i don't think it's a hint at all.
22:09:51 <tusho_> psygnisfive: what are red fish
22:09:52 <ihope> lament: I get a 403.
22:10:28 <tusho_> you're a native english speaker
22:10:29 <lament> it's a particular kind of fish. It's a herring.
22:10:38 <tusho_> lament: Now you just spoiled ihope
22:10:48 <lament> ihope: please don't read that line
22:10:59 <RodgerTheGreat> this is why I keep telling people to put hints in PMs.
22:11:04 <ihope> lament: I knew that.
22:11:11 <tusho_> psygnisfive: Perhaps you should just resign yourself to the fact that you consider everything idiotic
22:11:13 <ihope> Yes, I read it. Sorry.
22:11:14 <tusho_> instead of pointing it out all the time
22:11:24 <lament> besides ihope already knew it.
22:11:35 <psygnisfive> that kind of fish doesnt even look like that
22:11:37 -!- atsampson has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:11:50 <lament> again, i just don't think it's much of a hint, by itself
22:12:05 <lament> it doesn't work as a hint, except in retrospect you can say "oh yeah, i see that this was intended as a hint."
22:12:52 <lament> still gules is a nice puzzle
22:13:22 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: it's not really a hint as much as an explanation, later on, for why you should feel like an idiot :)
22:13:39 <tusho_> ok so apparently psygnisfive has NEVER EVER heard red herring as a literary term
22:13:39 <RodgerTheGreat> basil is more of a "fuck you" puzzle than the others mainly because I wanted to end with a stumper
22:13:49 <tusho_> and thought it was a type of fallacy instead.
22:14:25 <lament> yeah, if you don't know what red herring means then it's a bit less fair.
22:14:32 <SimonRC> so, you claim that a novice can do them in 5 minutes each
22:14:36 <ihope> Well, I don't know how to do the second one. What's the answer?
22:14:36 <tusho_> let me break it down for psygnisfive
22:14:44 <tusho_> 1. You don't need a special platform
22:14:48 <lament> ihope: what do you mean you don't?
22:14:50 <RodgerTheGreat> basil is mainly hard because you have to look at it in a totally different way than you do most of the other puzzles. I train players one way, and then they have to spin their brain around
22:14:53 <lament> ihope: you're in #esoteric
22:15:16 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: with the number of hints you gave me, I didn't exactly get trained in any direction
22:15:48 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: i'd say it's hard mainly because you have no idea whatsoever of what way to look at it.
22:16:50 <ihope> Note to self: Don't stop the first time you see something.
22:19:58 <SimonRC> the route to the end is but 5 minutes long, but there are 1000 doors to try
22:20:12 <ihope> Bah, other-style line breaks.
22:20:19 <ihope> Notepad is a fan of not displaying those properly.
22:20:37 -!- atsampson has joined.
22:22:11 <tusho_> well psygnisfive you're on your own.
22:22:31 <tusho_> yes. everything is stupid to you psygnisfive
22:22:43 <psygnisfive> tusho, why are you replying to PM in #esoteric?
22:22:52 <tusho_> because there is no point for it to be in pm
22:23:04 <psygnisfive> except that noone knows the context of your reply
22:27:08 <oklopol> i can't do the third one even with the hints
22:27:17 <oklopol> and i refuse to try anymore
22:27:39 <ihope> Okay, I don't know how to do the gules fish.
22:27:46 <psygnisfive> its some stupid brainfuck program that you run the elf file through. that much was obvious from the beginning, only the thing doesnt do anything.
22:28:15 <RodgerTheGreat> the official hint for this puzzle is and was "look at everything you downloaded"
22:28:34 <RodgerTheGreat> but the puzzle's page also contains a really blatant hint
22:29:53 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
22:30:46 <psygnisfive> just tell us. if this puzzle is genuinely interesting, we'll see it as such, and if its not, you'll know it sucks and you can revise it.
22:31:02 <tusho_> actually, at least 3-4 people in this channel really like it
22:31:09 <tusho_> and you're the only one getting all angry and upset about it
22:31:28 <psygnisfive> oklopols giving up and ihope doesnt get it either
22:31:39 <psygnisfive> and you, you're just insane so ofcourse it makes sense to you :P
22:32:31 <tusho_> heh, I see ihope needed that hint too
22:33:03 <SimonRC> "< tusho_> and you're the only one getting all angry and upset about it" <-- BS, I got far more angry and upset about it
22:33:06 <tusho_> "thats the stupidest thing ive ever heard."
22:33:11 <tusho_> you continually break that recodr
22:33:19 <ihope> No, I still don't know.
22:33:53 <tusho_> SimonRC: but you didn't call it stupid afterwards
22:34:09 <SimonRC> I express my bitterness in different ways
22:35:20 <SimonRC> you may have noticed that I have been hinting that peoples' judgement of difficulty is being clouded by knowing the answer
22:35:36 <tusho_> looks like psygnisfive finally got it.
22:35:41 <psygnisfive> i still havent gotten it and its STILL idiotc
22:35:56 <tusho_> I think I might filter any message coming from psygnisfive with the words stupid or idiotic
22:36:02 <tusho_> they're all, without exception, useless
22:36:15 <tusho_> I have practically spelled it out to you on pm.
22:36:42 <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: I am aware of this inherent fact with puzzles. However, I've worked closely with many people as they've solved these, so I have a good understanding of the "hard parts" and usual stumbling blocks
22:36:44 <ihope> Okay, I looked inside the zip and saw something. It wasn't the password.
22:37:11 <psygnisfive> you open the zip file in a text editor and at the bottom it says much needed input: blahblahblah
22:37:21 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: yeah, and you may have noticed that no novice every actually solved them each in 5 minutes
22:37:24 <psygnisfive> when you run it through the program it spits out password is MD5 of the red herring
22:37:38 <tusho_> psygnisfive: You're a fucking asshole who ruins other people's fun.
22:37:50 <ihope> No, he's a fucking asshole who gave me a hint.
22:37:57 <psygnisfive> Rodger used shady techniques to make this puzzle
22:37:58 <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: actually, one dude on #Linux beat everything (it ended in gules those days) in about 8 minutes flat
22:38:00 <tusho_> ihope: What, by spelling out the whole damn puzzle?
22:38:14 <psygnisfive> "look inside the zip" is always, ALWAYS, understood to mean unzip and look at the contents
22:38:19 <RodgerTheGreat> apparently he'd done a lot of web hacking puzzles in the past
22:38:23 <tusho_> psygnisfive: OMFG!! PUZZLES SOMETIMES DEPEND ON WORDPLAY!
22:38:31 <tusho_> I AM SHOCKED AND AMAZED AT THIS NEW DEVELOPMENT!
22:38:35 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: interesting
22:38:49 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: is there any point to my continued existance
22:38:53 <tusho_> kind of like whirl huh
22:38:57 <tusho_> I think I might ignore psygnisfive
22:39:02 <ihope> tusho_: he said that if you run that string through the program, you get an instruction to take the MD5 of the red herring. He didn't say what to do with it.
22:39:18 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: hmmmmmmmmmmm
22:39:25 <RodgerTheGreat> so maybe it takes a savant, but it can be done damn fast
22:39:37 <ihope> So can someone give me the answer so I can move on to the next puzzle?
22:39:38 * tusho_ tries to recall the last time psygnisfive said anything useful instead of just disparaging other people
22:39:56 <SimonRC> presumably, the order one thinks of possibilities is quite random
22:40:07 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
22:40:13 <psygnisfive> "7566cb649f60a8a2d838750b2268720a" does nothing
22:40:14 <SimonRC> and the order can make the difference between taking 3 weeks trying and 8 minutes
22:40:21 <psygnisfive> nor does "646241e2ff7e13dc72c461809b2daa99"
22:40:27 <ihope> psygnisfive: what if you use capital letters?
22:40:45 <ihope> They sure look lowercase to me.
22:40:58 <psygnisfive> you mean capital letters in the MD5 string?
22:41:08 <lament> can you stop spoiling the puzzle for ihope
22:41:17 <ihope> Please, keep spoiling the puzzle for me.
22:41:19 <psygnisfive> thats stupid and not how MD5 outputs but ill bloody try
22:41:32 <tusho_> ihope there is no point playing a puzzle if you just get everything spoiled for you.
22:41:46 <ihope> lament: why do you want me to not hear the answer?
22:41:51 <psygnisfive> theres no point in playing a puzzle when its stupid either.
22:41:52 <ihope> tusho_: I'm curious as to what's next.
22:41:56 <tusho_> psygnisfive: so STOP PLAYING IT
22:41:58 <lament> ihope: there is no answer, it's just a puzzle
22:42:00 <tusho_> at least you'd shut up
22:42:14 <psygnisfive> no, im going to continue playing it and pointing out how stupid it is.
22:42:19 <ihope> Is that thing you put in the password box not the answer?
22:42:32 <tusho_> psygnisfive: We'll carefully ignore you.
22:42:47 <tusho_> i'm sure RodgerTheGreat feels a stab of pain each time you say 'your puzzle is stupid
22:42:53 <ihope> I'm still listening eagerly.
22:43:24 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:43:41 <ihope> pikhq, solve this puzzle and tell us the answer: http://rodger.shadowarts.org/PHP/gules.php
22:43:46 <SimonRC> this is quite the most spectacular way to make people hate one another and/or themselves that I have ever seen outside of fiction
22:43:59 <SimonRC> this game is like a bloomin' ring of conflict
22:44:02 <pikhq> ihope: I solved it a year ago.
22:44:09 <psygnisfive> SimonRC: you should've seen some of me and vlad's arguments over in #isharia!
22:44:17 <lament> ihope: what do you mean by answer, the password?
22:44:18 <tusho_> SimonRC: Actually, psygnisfive is always like this. As am I with him.
22:44:22 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: did the entire channel join in?
22:45:06 <pikhq> I have just been informed that I am now in the posession of a system with 2 Xeons, 2 gigs of RAM, and 4 100G SATA drives.
22:45:10 <psygnisfive> tusho why are you all up in a huff about me telling people the secret magic of this level?
22:45:30 <SimonRC> take discussion to another channel
22:45:35 <pikhq> In other words: I now have the space to make me a version-controlled ~.
22:45:55 <tusho_> #esoteric is dead apart from this anyway.
22:46:03 <pikhq> SimonRC: Don't physically have the 100G drives yet, though.
22:46:06 <tusho_> why kill #esoteric and just move everything to #anotherchannel?
22:46:06 <SimonRC> tusho_: because it is causing a damn argument, that's why
22:46:14 <tusho_> SimonRC: It'll cause a damn argument in there too.
22:46:15 <pikhq> And my actual ~ is on a system that's not currently on.
22:46:30 <SimonRC> tusho_: no, a couple of days ago there were long befunge discussions
22:46:39 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: well get a room
22:46:41 <tusho_> SimonRC: And there will be tomorrow.
22:46:45 <tusho_> But there is no befunge to discuss.
22:47:22 <ihope> #gulesfish, everyone?
22:47:35 <tusho_> ihope: That'll break when you get past #gulesfish.
22:48:10 <tusho_> This channel is dead anyway
22:48:13 <tusho_> there'll be arguments in that one too
22:48:18 <tusho_> so moving it accomplishes nothing
22:48:21 <tusho_> (dead apart from this)
22:48:27 <ihope> I'm thinking there won't be arguments if you're not there.
22:48:38 <tusho_> I guess I'll join then
22:49:08 <lament> bah, i forgot how to do gate 3 lock 1
22:49:18 <lament> i just remember that it's easy :D
22:49:25 <SimonRC> lament: is that the one with the flashing squares?
22:49:43 <psygnisfive> I MD5ed everything conceivable. the words "THEREDHERRING" "THEREDHERRINGÿ" "theredherring" "theredherringÿ" and the elf file
22:49:43 <lament> oh, i think i know what i did last time
22:49:56 <psygnisfive> and i tried those MD5s both all caps and all lowercase
22:50:07 <lament> psygnisfive: that's not everything conceivable.
22:50:19 <lament> psygnisfive: what's another way to say red herring?
22:50:21 <pikhq> Care to stick it in PM? I'd prefer not to spoil it.
22:50:28 <pikhq> Especially not for people who read the logs.
22:50:36 <psygnisfive> no actually there isnt, because "gulesfish" does not mean "red herring"
22:50:39 <ihope> To #gulesfish with ye. :-)
22:51:09 <tusho_> ihope: nobody's going to go to that channel
22:51:20 <lament> SimonRC: i think the last time i just tried permutations
22:54:45 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
22:55:42 <lament> mm, got to basil and don't feel like playing with it any more than i had last time :)
22:58:11 <lament> it's not really a maze, more like a blank wall :)
22:58:25 <SimonRC> (because knowing that other people could solve the puzzle in a minute or two but you can't is really reassuring)
22:58:28 <lament> gules at least has an obvious false trail
22:58:40 <lament> basil has no trail at all
22:59:06 <SimonRC> I assume Rodger meant literally 8 minutes for that other guy.
22:59:25 <tusho_> SimonRC: ihope just kicked me from #gulesfish
22:59:31 <tusho_> for telling psygnisfive he fails at reading comprehension
22:59:50 <psygnisfive> he kicked you because you're an annoying little shit
23:00:02 <tusho_> ihope: why did you kick me?
23:00:07 <oklopol> tusho_'s better than the rest of you, and not afraid to show it
23:00:18 -!- SimonRC has changed nick to RodgerTheGrape.
23:00:43 <RodgerTheGreat> simonRC- the guy that beat everything in 8 minutes didn't do basil, too
23:00:44 -!- RodgerTheGrape has changed nick to SimonRC.
23:01:04 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: oops, silly me
23:01:38 <tusho_> for future record i'm an annoying little shit
23:02:11 <SimonRC> we need a ruler with an iron fist
23:02:18 <ihope> I wonder if I could cause chaos in #math this way.
23:02:21 <SimonRC> yeah, one iron fist and one candy fist
23:02:33 <tusho_> SimonRC: i'm happy with lament's level of opping
23:02:36 <SimonRC> iron fist for the bad and candy fist for the good
23:02:46 <tusho_> it means that people aren't kicked just because someone considers them an annoying little shit
23:03:14 <tusho_> someone else founded it
23:03:19 <tusho_> but he's been here since 2002 and is the only active op
23:03:39 <SimonRC> ah, of course, Freenode's non-falunty ops policy
23:03:44 <ihope> I'm no longer in #gulesfish.
23:03:58 <SimonRC> he is the basket in which all our eggs are?
23:04:14 <SimonRC> maybe RodgerTheGreat or someone else sensible should be made into a backup op
23:04:25 <tusho_> i don't think we need more ops SimonRC
23:04:33 <tusho_> #esoteric is, mostly, totally free speech
23:04:35 <tusho_> and it's better this way.
23:04:42 -!- cherez has joined.
23:05:10 <SimonRC> in case lament goes into witness protection or something
23:05:43 <tusho_> lament barely excersizes his op power
23:05:55 <tusho_> (apart from the lack of his vulgar puns. Which would be missed.)
23:06:04 <tusho_> (although it's more vulgarity, and puns, seperately.)
23:07:16 <lament> don't we have other ops, sheesh
23:07:28 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: not in here, please
23:07:53 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: I would like to actually sleep tonight
23:09:46 <tusho_> lament: we have one other
23:09:57 <tusho_> and he's dropped off the face of the earth for years, no?
23:10:16 <lament> wasn't calamari an op?
23:10:23 <lament> i always thought he was
23:10:23 <tusho_> not when i've been here
23:10:26 <lament> but he's not on the list
23:10:36 <tusho_> to me #esoteric is your channel :P
23:13:47 <oklopol> wanna give the puzzle url again
23:14:02 <oklopol> i know a guy who likes playing with these
23:14:11 <tusho_> http://rodger.shadowarts.org/PHP/Example.php
23:20:16 <lament> since time immemorial, i think
23:20:30 <lament> try /msg chanserv access #esoteric list
23:20:42 <lament> Aardappel is there, for obvious reasons
23:21:25 <tusho_> lament: fizzie only started talking recently
23:21:33 <tusho_> didn't talk in 2007 as far as I can tell
23:21:38 <tusho_> only recently in 2008, probably talked before that ofc
23:21:57 <lament> i think he was on the esolang list
23:22:25 <lament> the esolang list still exists, it's amazing
23:22:35 <tusho_> does anyone still post?
23:22:42 <lament> the only message in the past ~5 years was a test message crosslisted to some other list
23:23:00 <lament> but it's totally there
23:23:05 <tusho_> Surely someone has to post a message every now and then
23:23:08 <tusho_> even if it's just hah it's dead
23:23:17 <tusho_> lament: well then you know what i'll do
23:23:21 <tusho_> i'll go and send an email to it
23:23:42 * tusho_ subscribes to friends-of-brainfuck too
23:23:47 <lament> i'm not sure if it still exists
23:23:56 <tusho_> you said it did lament
23:24:40 <lament> http://esoteric.sange.fi/
23:24:48 <lament> you figure out the subscribe link :)
23:25:21 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:25:21 <tusho_> there's an email from jul 06 there
23:25:27 <tusho_> http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/current
23:26:20 <tusho_> MUST SUbSCRIBE!!!!!!!!!!!
23:26:23 <lament> it's some popular listserv
23:26:30 <lament> try listserv@ or majordomo@ or subscribe@
23:26:49 <tusho_> https://sange.fi/oiva/esoteric -> not found
23:26:57 <tusho_> <lang@esoteric.sange.fi>
23:27:03 <lament> To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of:
23:27:03 <tusho_> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a
23:27:04 <lament> unsubscribe lang[if you receive these messages via lang]
23:27:04 <lament> unsubscribe misc[if you receive these messages via misc]
23:27:13 <lament> ... you figure out how to subscribe :D
23:27:21 <tusho_> are you subscribed lament
23:27:46 <tusho_> ok, let's hope that worked
23:27:50 <tusho_> List context changed to 'lang' by following command.
23:27:51 <tusho_> Subscription confirmation ticket sent to user being subscribed.
23:28:07 <lament> this is what always amazed me about the internet
23:28:13 <lament> things that are dead seem so alive
23:28:15 <tusho_> Welcome to list 'lang'
23:28:28 <lament> at least post something on-topic
23:28:30 <tusho_> for my reference: lang@esoteric.sange.fi & misc@esoteric.sange.fi
23:29:02 <lament> maybe mention this channel, just in case somebody missed the announcement 5 years ago
23:30:18 <tusho_> Let's see if some life can't be kicked back into this thing.
23:30:24 <tusho_> I'm not even going to set up a filter+label
23:30:31 <tusho_> I am under no illusions on how much traffic to expect
23:30:56 <tusho_> friends of brainfuck seems to be dead though
23:31:04 <tusho_> it says it's sent off the confirmation but hasn't
23:31:35 <lament> ...suddenly billions of forgotten esolangers awaken from their ancient dreams...
23:31:46 <lament> ...and eat tusho's soul!
23:32:21 <tusho_> You have successfully confirmed your subscription request for "penguinofthegods@googlemail.com" to the Friends-of-brainfuck mailing list. A separate confirmation message will be sent to your email address, along with your password, and other useful information and links.
23:32:33 <tusho_> mailing lists make me happy
23:32:37 <tusho_> they're so ... deliciously arcane
23:32:54 <lament> does usenet make you happy?
23:33:04 <tusho_> usenet doesn't work, lament.
23:33:08 <SimonRC> ooh, another mailing list to fill up my gmail account and ignore!
23:33:20 <tusho_> SimonRC: You're assuming any messages get sent to it to ignore
23:33:25 <tusho_> and yeah, usenet works for binaries.
23:33:28 <SimonRC> I am on several populated groups
23:34:02 <lament> usenet definitely works better than the esolang mailing list :)
23:35:04 <tusho_> Jul 26 = last non-spam on the friends-of-brainfuck list
23:35:10 <tusho_> it's asking if there's anyone still there in all the spam.
23:35:36 <tusho_> how can people suddenly just be so unenthusiatic about esolangs
23:35:38 <tusho_> while the esolang wiki survives
23:35:42 <tusho_> to not post for 4 fucking years?
23:35:47 <tusho_> i mean, ok, i can understand it going dead
23:35:58 <tusho_> lament, did you get the email I sent to misc@?
23:36:19 <tusho_> ok, the listserv still works then
23:40:32 * SimonRC tries sending "help" to the listar
23:40:50 <SimonRC> "Unable to process request due to filesystem error"
23:41:04 <tusho_> SimonRC: here's what to do
23:41:11 <SimonRC> make the help command work?
23:41:17 <tusho_> send {subscribe lang} to listar@esoteric.sange.fi
23:41:19 <tusho_> send {subscribe misc} to listar@esoteric.sange.fi
23:41:44 <SimonRC> what other lists are there?
23:41:58 <tusho_> that's all the esoteric lists
23:42:05 <tusho_> esoteric/lang and esoteric/misc
23:42:10 <tusho_> on the esoteric.sange.fi listserv
23:42:12 <tusho_> anyway, https://mail.koeln.ccc.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/friends-of-brainfuck
23:44:05 <tusho_> lament: how much spam do you get from those lists
23:44:36 <tusho_> all on the esoteric listserv?
23:44:44 <SimonRC> say "lists" to listar@esoteric.sange.fi
23:44:50 <tusho_> lament: which are you subscribed to
23:45:17 * SimonRC tries multi-subscribe in one message
23:46:28 <SimonRC> chat doesn't work: "filesystem error"
23:46:52 <tusho_> Unable to generate subscription cookie!
23:46:52 <tusho_> Unable to process request due to filesystem error.
23:47:15 <tusho_> kind of an eerie feeling this
23:47:22 <tusho_> a half-broken listserv
23:47:24 <SimonRC> I wonder where it is hosted
23:47:27 <tusho_> serving the occasional spam
23:47:39 <tusho_> and even then just a test message
23:47:48 <SimonRC> how did we find it out again?
23:48:04 <SimonRC> I thought that stuff on the net got taken down as soon as no-one was using it
23:48:13 <tusho_> SimonRC: It hosts lots of stuff too
23:48:17 <tusho_> http://esoteric.sange.fi/
23:48:24 <tusho_> it's the esoteric file archive
23:48:26 <SimonRC> 23:21:57 < lament> i think he was on the esolang list
23:48:27 <SimonRC> 23:22:25 < lament> the esolang list still exists, it's amazing
23:48:43 <tusho_> i knew of it before though
23:48:45 <tusho_> just never tried subscribing
23:48:49 <lament> we found it because i remember the url :)
23:48:57 <tusho_> and because esolangs.org links to it
23:49:02 <tusho_> just not the actual thing
23:49:05 <tusho_> so we looked in archives/
23:49:09 <tusho_> and saw unsubscribe instructions
23:49:19 * SimonRC <heart> internet archaeology
23:49:41 <SimonRC> it's like discovering a forgotten city
23:49:52 <tusho_> i have no idea how you can not post to a mailing list for 5 years though
23:50:10 <tusho_> everything i'm on always gets a 'is this still on' every now and then
23:50:20 <lament> tusho_: it never officially died, either
23:50:22 <SimonRC> I subscribed to the thress that work
23:50:23 <lament> people just stopped posting
23:50:31 <tusho_> SimonRC: friends-of-brainfuck too?
23:50:31 <lament> #esoteric played a large part in killing it
23:50:49 <SimonRC> (hmm, how did *I* find this place)
23:51:21 <lament> at least these days the esolangs wiki is high up on google
23:51:24 <SimonRC> some listserv software says "BTW you are still subscribed y'know and here is your password" every month
23:51:25 <lament> and from it, people can find irc
23:51:37 <SimonRC> anbd from there THE WORLD!
23:51:45 <lament> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_Portal
23:51:50 <lament> that page actually mentions the mailing lists
23:51:57 <SimonRC> who owns the server the list is on
23:52:01 <lament> The mailing list lang@esoteric.sange.fi is is a common place to announce new languages, programming contests etc., though it is rather low on traffic these days.
23:52:04 <lament> To subscribe to lang@esoteric.sange.fi, send a mail with subscribe lang as the message body to listar@esoteric.sange.fi.
23:52:11 <tusho_> SimonRC: some listserv == mailman.
23:52:24 <tusho_> i used to be subscribed to a mailing list from coollist.com
23:52:29 <tusho_> which, at the bottom, proudly sports:
23:52:34 <tusho_> © Copyright 2000 Coollist.
23:52:41 <SimonRC> or, who owns esoteric.sange.fi?
23:52:56 <SimonRC> (the list mustn't die, not after we just found it)
23:53:03 <tusho_> SimonRC: we can keep it alive.
23:53:20 <lament> if the list is referenced from the comunity portal page on the wiki
23:53:27 <lament> means it was always accessible to newcomers
23:53:33 <SimonRC> I mean, he mustn't notice and say "oh that thing's still going I mean to get rid of that"
23:53:44 <tusho_> lament: doesn't mean they did it.
23:53:46 <lament> he's subscribed to the list of course
23:54:07 <SimonRC> I am bothered by my desire to try and bring together groups of people that are split and only have me in common
23:54:25 <tusho_> i also hate to see sites die
23:54:29 <tusho_> then it just disappears
23:54:34 <tusho_> it kind of feels like everyone on it is gone too.
23:54:41 <SimonRC> e.g. my recent desire to reunite SourceryNet's #afd with the parent newsgroup alt.fan.dragons
23:54:41 <lament> esoteric.sange.fi used to be the hub
23:54:49 <tusho_> i also generally dislike meeting someone on the internet
23:54:52 <tusho_> and then never seeing them again
23:54:59 <SimonRC> tusho_: one of my webcomics died a couple of days ago
23:55:02 <tusho_> coollist.com seems to be broken
23:55:07 <tusho_> subscribe.cgi -> empty
23:55:08 <SimonRC> Everything You Know Is Right
23:55:51 <SimonRC> enough thought like this could make one an insane dictator who desires no information should ever be lost
23:56:07 <tusho_> i prefer retaining information in a vigilante way
23:56:17 <tusho_> now, shall we figure out how to work coollist?
23:56:25 <tusho_> i'll try -making- a list
23:56:41 <lament> at one point the esolang list was lively enough that somebody proposed an esolang ([]) to go in the message title tags
23:56:55 <SimonRC> lament: I remember seeing that
23:57:09 <tusho_> The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.
23:57:25 <lament> that esolang is not even on the wiki :(
23:57:35 <tusho_> oh god, now we've made lament sad too
23:57:52 <tusho_> SimonRC: http://coollist.com/
23:57:59 <tusho_> it seems to be 100% borked
23:58:12 <lament> a lot of cool people used to come to this channel and don't come anymore
23:58:13 <tusho_> SimonRC: it died early 2007 it seems
23:58:19 <tusho_> so it went for 7 years without maintainence...
23:59:08 <lament> this channel is dying just as the list died
23:59:10 <tusho_> Your query has been successfully sent to the Coollist Support Team. We will get back to you as soon as possible.
23:59:16 <tusho_> lament: wtf? It's active.
23:59:23 <lament> it's just dying very, very slowly :D
23:59:32 <tusho_> ok, it was in a lull a while back
23:59:34 <tusho_> but it's perked up again
23:59:45 <SimonRC> google thinks the FOBF subscribe messages are spam
23:59:55 <tusho_> ircbrowse.com seems to be dead...