00:13:18 -!- Corun has joined. 00:26:45 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:17:17 -!- tusho has quit. 02:08:12 -!- cherez1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:12:20 -!- cherez has joined. 02:26:14 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 02:48:21 -!- djgera has joined. 02:50:06 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 02:50:17 hey guys, what are people up to this evening? 02:58:27 Ah, sitting around waiting for something interesting to happen. Me too. 02:58:37 Indeed. 02:58:41 pikhq: done anything with Def-BF yet? 02:59:09 No. 02:59:21 anything about the spec you'd like clarified? 02:59:29 I've been busy muttering about how MST's "intro to" courses suck. 02:59:36 No, not at all; it's a fairly grokkable spec. 02:59:47 hm 03:19:37 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 03:47:27 I was bored, so I wrote a test program in high-level def-bf: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215053139.html 03:47:57 foreach/while loops ended up being very nice and clean looking 03:50:04 I agree. 03:50:13 ah christ, I forgot colons after my define statements: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215053310.html 03:50:16 The whole thing is ridiculously simple to understand. 03:50:21 can't even code in my own languages. :/ 03:50:41 yeah, I'm just insanely pleased with how nicely it comes together 03:51:52 what's interesting is that <> seem to become largely relegated to array manipulation 03:52:14 Insanely, if I write that so that it uses the C calling interface, then the C interface will be trivial. 03:52:38 that'll be pretty badass 03:52:50 To use printf: 03:53:12 var: string "Hello, world!\n\0" 03:53:15 printf[string] 03:53:29 yep 03:53:52 Wait, that's already null terminated, isn't it? 03:54:07 pikhq: uh, might be? 03:54:11 Anyways, that's really fucking cool. 03:54:17 define: print[a][ a [.>];// display a null-terminated string 03:54:17 do you think there's a need for ascii/asciiz? 03:54:27 ]That seems to imply that it's null terminated already. 03:54:44 there are a few things that might be inefficient without post-optimization, but it shouldn't be too much worse speed-wise than regular compiled BF 03:54:57 No; it seems like C gets along just fine without. 03:55:00 pikhq: good point 03:55:25 Hm. what do you think would be more useful in general? 03:57:29 Null termination. 03:57:30 seems like almost every time someone wants to iterate over array elements or characters in a string they'd want a null to easily break out of the loop anyway, so null-terminated seems good 03:57:44 it's not like we're shooting for mega space-efficiency, anyway 03:57:57 It's much, much nicer in Brainfuck than even in C. . . 03:58:12 And even in C, null termination is fairly handy for a few algorithms. 03:58:40 Though it'd be nice if C strings were size-encoded, hell: making a really simple C calling interface is a good idea in my book. 03:59:03 agreed 03:59:44 do you think there's a need for more than numbers->numbers quoted strings->null-terminated character sequence as far as ? is concerned? 04:01:40 I think you can make custom control structures for this language ridiculously cleanly- I haven't even touched the code pointers yet. 04:03:39 and it now occurs to me that there's a need for a convenient way to specify said pointers. I think it should be done as "label: name", and then the name can be used as a variable. 04:08:18 here's a trivial example: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215054391.html 04:08:39 you can extend this to something like a "while a>x" loop pretty easily 04:09:43 I think the "label: name" part is handy. 04:10:13 yeah, otherwise %/: are really crippled in high-level mode 04:10:27 Especially since this language seems to be, as far as hardware interfacing goes, somewhere between C and assembly. 04:10:40 yeah, I think it strikes a good balance 04:11:03 and it achieves a weird kind of LISP-esque elegance somehow 04:12:08 By just being so damned simple. 04:12:36 I should also note that it makes a lot of sense to make it possible to have literals in function calls and return statements, as this is not explicitly said in the spec 04:12:40 My favorite part is that, if you *really* wanted to, you could have this thing write arbitrary pre-assembled code into memory. :p 04:12:47 mmm. :) 04:13:01 -!- djgera has quit. 04:13:09 and you might even be able to use label: to then call it trivially depending on how the semantics work 04:13:11 And thereby forgo all actual assembly files. 04:13:21 ooh, goosebumps 04:13:33 Though I, personally, wouldn't use it. 04:13:35 this will be a grand systems programming language 04:14:03 Instead, I'd just do foreign_assembly_call%. 04:14:31 And let the linker handle the details of figuring out where the fuck that foreign assembly call is supposed to come from. 04:14:52 Indeed, this is a *perfect* esoteric systems programming language. 04:14:56 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:15:49 perhaps having a working compiler and some basic libraries will encourage yet another attempt at creating an esoteric OS from scratch? 04:16:39 -!- cherez has joined. 04:16:39 I plan on making said esoteric OS. 04:16:49 neato 04:16:52 I'll get on the compiler this weekend. 04:16:56 (and possibly finish) 04:17:07 I need to finish my Autotools kick, though. ;) 04:17:16 I'll write some bits and pieces for the std libs when I have free time 04:17:20 Cool. 04:17:40 I'm thinking stdio, stdmath and stdctrl are the main ones to shoot for 04:17:51 I agree. 04:17:55 maybe stdstring and stdarray as well for more complex stuff 04:18:07 I do have to wonder, however. . . 04:18:14 How am I going to implement '.'? 04:18:32 mm. probably a BIOS call at some level? 04:18:46 But what if we go into 32-bit mode? 04:19:00 then it'll probably get rather esoteric 04:19:05 lol 04:19:11 I know. . . 04:19:52 Are you shooting for making this self-hosting eventually? 04:19:57 I'll have '.' call a single function, which shall be my support library for the language. ;) 04:20:00 Yeah. 04:20:28 Said single function could equally well be written in Def-BF as in assembly. . . 04:20:47 yeah, with %/: and #/; it'll be a LOT easier than trying to make PEBBLE self-hosting 04:21:00 PEBBLE is simple not meant to self-host. 04:21:04 PEBBLE is quite powerful but data structures are still a bitch 04:21:05 s/simple/simply/ 04:21:28 I'm just saying that because we've discussed it passingly in the past 04:21:28 Whereas, in Def-BF, it's no harder than writing this in assembly. 04:21:48 Except that it's mildly quirky assembly, of course. 04:21:56 naturally 04:22:23 I like to think of it as a very clean RISC that pretends registers don't exist 04:22:33 Sounds about right. 04:25:06 oh, found another minor typo- there is no ; necessary after the "return a" in the while loop example. My curly-bracket reflexes are biting me. The program ought to compile right anyway, though. 04:28:03 After all, the ; won't ever be executed. 04:30:24 yup 04:30:36 still might trip somebody up if used as an example 04:30:42 True. 04:33:09 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:34:55 * pikhq should sleep. 04:34:57 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 04:35:01 well, good night- I've gotta turn in myself 04:35:26 -!- cherez has joined. 04:44:46 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:44:51 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 05:16:11 -!- jamesstanley has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:16:12 -!- Deewiant has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:17:31 -!- jamesstanley has joined. 05:17:31 -!- Deewiant has joined. 05:17:42 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:17:55 -!- Deewiant has joined. 05:21:46 -!- jamesstanley has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:24:51 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:28:59 -!- jamesstanley has joined. 05:30:44 -!- GreaseMonkey has changed nick to DarkPants. 06:04:41 -!- cherez has left (?). 06:07:15 Zipped files inside zipped files make me a sad panda. 06:22:47 Holy shit 06:22:56 Adobe Reader is 190 Mo? 06:23:15 I'd much rather have text files! 07:14:54 -!- DarkPants has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:18:29 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:18:48 -!- GreaseMonkey has changed nick to DarkPants. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:13 printn[val] <<< i don't get this in the Def-BF 08:05:28 unless it should be printn[tmp] or something 08:05:45 or 1/2 08:16:07 also 08:16:07 add1[val1,tmp] 08:16:07 add1[val2,tmp] // tmp = val1+val2 08:17:34 add1's params are copies, not the original var? 08:17:36 *vars 08:18:27 seems like it would be a bit of a space/efficiency to do that for all calls 08:18:53 define add1[a,b][ 08:18:53 a [- b+;];// add a to b 08:18:53 ] 08:20:03 well, i'll wait for rodgie 08:20:40 also i'll highlight him in case he's already awake, already slept like 3 hours: RodgerTheGreat 08:22:39 Adobe Reader is 190 Mo? 08:22:41 a sec 08:22:46 from copy's definition 08:22:46 add2[a,b,c]// make two copies 08:22:46 add1[c,a]// restore a 08:22:55 so add is clearly destructive 08:23:04 RodgerTheGreat: i do believe you have two errors 08:23:12 $ du -sh /usr/kde/3.5/bin/kpdf 08:23:12 265K /usr/kde/3.5/bin/kpdf 08:23:13 :D 08:23:25 but probably none, i'm a failer 08:25:45 what's this mo? 08:25:52 is it related to megabytor 08:25:53 s 08:28:21 fuck man i'm haf. 08:33:28 oklopol, s/megabytor/moozilla/ 08:33:41 it's related to moozilla? 08:33:48 lol 08:33:50 yes it is 08:33:50 im famous 08:33:58 okay 08:33:59 moozilla, it is in topic... 08:34:23 oklopol: talkin' bout mo here 08:34:25 i know 08:34:27 oklopol, he wrote it in some esoteric specs when he was high (the result of the specs were also written then it seems) 08:34:28 not fuck man i'm haf 08:34:55 http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/27/428255/esoteric.txt 08:35:18 hmm i missed the spec conversation, nnscript decided it doesn't show but about one page of logs now, and i have to use a fucking logviewer to read the rest 08:41:57 you have "h" as 8? 08:43:01 using ascii without the high byte? 08:43:06 *bit 08:45:08 moozilla: respond 08:45:14 how does output work? 08:45:22 second row designated for that? :\ 08:47:24 ah and you don't actually output, just make the second row contain hello world 08:52:54 moozilla: i think your example either fails miserably quite near the beginning, or then i misunderstood the language 08:53:29 but if i understood it correctly, i absolutely love the way you do args 08:56:09 as for tcness, you could set up an initial state and run a line of 110 08:56:55 so my suggestion is you infinitely execute the program for the first line, then move to the next, execute the program infinitely for it, and so on 08:57:03 this way you could easily write ca 08:57:14 moozilla: goddammit you were here 10 minutes ago :P 08:57:56 i'll write an interp for the current one as i understood it 09:01:39 hmm 09:01:57 it seems i managed to read only half of it, and thought it ended there :D 09:02:43 okay if second row indeed is output, as your hello world suggested, it might work 09:02:58 probably works, that is, at least the beginning does 09:05:04 replace(/[^+-*/%|&~#$?<>^v]*/g,''); //remove comments (javascript example) <<< this line is incomplete 09:09:00 hmm. actually i'm not sure how the looping shit works 09:10:02 you say something about looping grids letting you do flow control... not sure what you mean, but in case you either get flow control *or* an infinite grid, it's not tc 09:10:23 but you probably know that, now appear, o sweet moozilla. 09:10:44 i need a cool drink -> 09:12:21 heh, didn't even realize "cool" means cold :D 09:12:28 i meant in the other sense 09:13:52 i love python's "unstable" and/or driven flow control 09:14:02 should esolangify some of that 09:41:43 -!- DarkPants has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:42:32 perhaps i should make a small befunge interpreter in C 09:42:49 need more languages on my page 09:43:22 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/python.txt updated this, it used to be a fucking cartesian product i made in about 30 seconds :P 09:43:54 oklopol 09:43:58 the example works 09:44:02 in my interpreter 09:45:59 * AnMaster ponders writing a very slow interpreter 09:46:07 for some simple C-like language 09:46:25 it should be very slow 09:46:34 slower than bash 09:46:39 why? 09:46:42 moozilla: yep 09:46:43 just for fun 09:47:01 it's just you first start making the string on the second line 09:47:08 but @ l, you stack two in the same spot 09:47:28 moozilla: how does flow control work? 09:47:36 what order do you run the code in 09:47:50 just in order i think 09:47:51 oklopol, check his interpreter 09:47:57 check the spec 09:48:04 * AnMaster can read C# 09:48:10 however I got other stuff to do toda 09:48:12 today* 09:48:32 moozilla: i mean, how do you jump? 09:48:36 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/python.txt updated this, it used to be a fucking cartesian product i made in about 30 seconds :P <-- not readable! 09:48:42 AnMaster: why would i read it when i can just ask? 09:48:56 AnMaster: it's a one-expression bf interp 09:48:56 oklopol, oh you follow the lazy programmer paradigm? 09:48:57 i wrote the spec i year ago 09:48:58 i forget 09:49:04 AnMaster: what's that? 09:49:11 oklopol, "ask instead of read" 09:49:18 duh. 09:50:27 also, i have no idea where the interp is 09:50:53 AnMaster: i can't read code 09:50:54 in general 09:51:17 why not? 09:51:47 if there's a function the meaning of which i don't know, i will just try to read it over and over 09:51:58 oklopol, check man page? 09:52:02 often takes 5 minutes to realize i don't know what it is 09:52:14 it's not like that, i don't actually realize i don't know the function. 09:52:48 anyway, i have a lot of problems like that, when reading 09:53:34 i could probably read a small interp, tho 09:54:13 also i read code like a machine, the names of variables tell me absolutely nothing 09:55:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 10:18:49 -!- RedDak has joined. 10:39:38 -!- GreaseMonkey_ has joined. 10:48:32 -!- GreaseMonkey_ has quit ("Remote closed the previous member app"). 10:54:10 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:04:21 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:26:16 -!- jix has joined. 12:38:01 -!- RedDak has joined. 12:42:09 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:03:10 -!- olsner has joined. 13:09:31 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:22:40 RodgerTheGreat: wake yet? 13:23:08 yeah, but I'm leaving for classes in seconds 13:23:29 and I think you may be right about the program 13:24:56 what class? 13:25:03 if i may ask 13:38:40 The wiki page about Brainloller says 'Infinite loops due to the IP rotators can never happen because they're reversible and the IP starts at the top left.' Surely if execution encounters a square of 4 Rotate-Right instructions, there will be an infinite loop...? 13:39:31 Oh, I see. Never mind. 13:43:29 what did you see? 13:43:44 It is impossible to enter such a construction. 13:43:58 The rotations would prevent execution from getting to the right place to start the loop. 13:48:09 I can see that I'm going to waste a lot of time trying to come up with a shape that will cause an infinite loop because of IP rotators. 13:48:13 -!- Corun has joined. 14:12:01 right they're relative 14:14:48 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:16:03 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:34:32 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:37:25 -!- Corun has joined. 14:38:08 * pikhq <3 Def-BF 14:39:14 "Silly deontologist, cocoa crispies are for consequentialists!" 14:39:20 "I hold you morally responsible!" 14:57:13 -!- RedDak has joined. 15:00:42 "This means, if Azeroth really is a spherical planetoid with a diameter of 12 kms, that the planet must have an average density of roughly 5850 grammes per cubic centimetre. That makes its average density more than 500 times greater than lead. The extreme density of Azeroth would explain why it is impossible to pick up many objects from the ground, including ones that you have just dropped." 15:03:16 -!- olsner has quit. 15:15:06 -!- Slereah_ has quit ("kthxbai"). 15:15:23 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:16:36 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 15:17:55 -!- zolletta has joined. 15:18:37 -!- zolletta has left (?). 15:30:24 cctoide: how did you determine its mass? 15:31:53 it's from here: http://www.spaaace.com/cope/?p=111 15:45:30 -!- olsner has joined. 15:48:19 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:49:16 -!- Corun has joined. 15:49:30 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:49:38 -!- jix has joined. 15:55:02 ais523, hi there 15:55:07 hi AnMaster 15:55:13 ais523, how goes ffungi? 15:55:14 I got COME FROM INTERCAL to Befunge working 15:55:20 nice 15:55:26 and I've written much of the rest of the code but not tested it 15:55:34 ais523, oh in other news: envbot 0.1-beta1 was released today 15:55:35 all I need to do now is handle line labels in the Befunge 15:55:46 http://envbot.org/trac/wiki 15:56:20 ais523, oh befunge has goto using a fingerprint 15:56:24 * AnMaster checks what one it was 15:56:46 SUBR 15:56:47 :) 15:58:13 ais523, will it be possible to come from befunge to befunge? 15:58:15 I guess not 15:58:17 yes 15:58:19 oh? 15:58:27 it's possible to do all the combinations 15:58:32 even COME FROM C to Befunge if you like 15:58:36 you mean that some place in funge space will act as a teleporter to another place? 15:58:39 a wormhole? 15:58:40 :D 15:58:48 well, you can put in a line label like M5L 15:58:52 and a COME FROM like M5C 15:58:59 interesting 15:59:00 then if the M5L is evaluated, it teleports to the M5C 15:59:13 ais523, what is there are 2 places in funge space with same line label? 15:59:15 or errors if another COME FROM aims there 15:59:31 AnMaster: then it's unspecified which one is NEXTed to, and either can be COME FROM 15:59:40 the same behaviour as if you have two of the same line label in C 15:59:46 (duplicate labels are illegal in INTERCAL) 15:59:56 well that would cause an error if they are in same function right? 16:00:13 like: 16:00:14 no 16:00:17 foo: 16:00:20 code; 16:00:23 foo: 16:00:24 other code; 16:00:27 oh, yes if you were using C labels 16:00:33 I mean if you wrote ick_linelabel(5); for instance 16:00:33 ah you mean intercal ones 16:00:37 you can do that twice in the same function 16:00:43 ais523, well what will c-intercal do on that 16:00:59 COME FROMs target both of them, NEXTs switch to an unspecified one 16:01:10 and what one will happen in practise? 16:01:11 (that is, the compiler can choose either for any or no reason, but must choose exactly one) 16:01:13 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 16:01:18 AnMaster: I think it switches to the first one 16:01:21 ah 16:01:29 with a reasonably sensible definition of 'first' 16:01:47 -!- Corun has joined. 16:02:00 ais523, one intersting thing with your FFIs are that they are not really FFIs. They do far more 16:02:05 a FFI would just do function calls 16:02:07 yes, they do, really 16:02:19 they merge all the control structures of INTERCAL into the target language 16:02:29 except ABSTAIN/REINSTATE, but that would be even more feral than COME FROM 16:02:31 ais523, idea: inline C in intercal and vice versa 16:02:33 XD 16:02:49 AnMaster: ugh, both would be pretty difficult 16:02:52 hah 16:02:55 yeah guess so 16:03:08 actually, inline C in INTERCAL would be pretty easy with C-INTERCAL 16:03:12 I could just copy it verbatim to the output 16:03:22 what that actually did, though, would require a good knowlegde of the compiler's internals 16:03:28 hah 16:03:56 well the good thing is if you had that working and you used gcc you could then do inline asm inside that! 16:03:56 :D 16:04:24 anyway it is a bad idea 16:04:28 or inline c in inline intercal in inline c in inline intercal in inline c in intercal etc? 16:04:38 ugh 16:04:44 olsner: don't start on that, it would require writing a recursive compiler 16:05:40 ais523, does svg support background color? 16:05:47 colour* 16:05:48 AnMaster: I think so 16:05:50 but I don't know 16:05:50 extra evil points for requiring escapes for the inline code 16:06:01 olsner: INTERCAL has no escape characters 16:06:03 because it has no strings 16:06:07 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 16:06:08 haha 16:06:16 also, no particularly easy way to represent strings either 16:06:24 ais523: I'm not specifically talking about strings.. 16:06:25 string handling's a pain in INTERCAL 16:06:29 ais523, yet it can be done as it is turing complete I guess 16:06:34 AnMaster: yes, of course 16:06:37 it's just annoying 16:06:57 ais523, what about generating intercal code from some readable language? 16:06:58 just code in general - like have the end-of-inline-c character/syntax conflict with normal C syntax 16:07:11 AnMaster: I've been thinking about that 16:07:22 ais523, object orientated intercal maybe? 16:07:28 I think a C to INTERCAL compiler would be easier than compiling C into most other langs 16:07:34 oh? 16:07:34 and CLC-INTERCAL is optionally object-oriented 16:07:36 it has classes 16:07:38 and lectures 16:07:39 oh my! 16:07:42 lectures? 16:07:43 wtf 16:07:44 btw, do we still not have any programming language with time travel? if so, I'm building it 16:07:44 :P 16:08:02 olsner: TwoDucks (uncomputable), Feather (not properly specced and unimplemented) 16:08:05 olsner, well yes, TRDS in befunge 16:08:07 a fingerprint 16:08:15 cfunge won't implement TRDS 16:08:22 ccbi does 16:08:52 ccbi is a pain to compile, so just get binary downloads 16:08:59 bbl food 16:09:00 AnMaster: I compiled it 16:09:30 AnMaster: TRDS? google comes up almost empty-handed 16:09:38 olsner: see the CCBI docs 16:12:21 Deewiant: [[FBBI’s help text describes a flag -fast with the words “more speed, at the cost of locking up in infinite loops”. Interestingly, all it does is that it prevents the output of the string " \b" whenever the IP moves. I wonder: how exactly does outputting a character and then backspacing over it prevent infinite loops?]] 16:12:45 it's because in DOS, Control-C doesn't work until the next I/O operation by the running program 16:12:59 so it makes it possible to break an infinite loop with Control-C if you do useless IO 16:13:47 hmm, I found ccbi, but not the docs 16:14:37 I can't find its docs either 16:14:41 I found the source for TRDS, though 16:15:44 oh? 16:15:49 where? :D 16:15:56 inside the CCBI source package 16:16:12 there's a lengthy comment explaining how Deewiant managed to get bits of it working 16:17:55 there are two, actually, IIRC :-) 16:18:10 Deewiant: do you know where the TRDS specs are? 16:18:24 ah, fingerprints/rcfunge98/trds.d seems to contain the meat of the time-travel extension 16:18:36 olsner: yes, that's what I found 16:18:45 * olsner should learn befunge 16:18:47 ais523: in the readme of RC/funce-98 16:18:49 er 16:18:52 funge 16:18:53 -!- tusho has joined. 16:18:55 hi tusho 16:18:59 it's because in DOS, Control-C doesn't work until the next I/O operation by the running program 16:18:59 so it makes it possible to break an infinite loop with Control-C if you do useless IO 16:19:00 I see 16:19:14 very interesting 16:19:14 hi ais523 16:19:16 i won 16:19:18 no, I did 16:19:20 tusho, no you didn't 16:19:22 :D i love winning 16:19:32 i hit enter first, probably 16:19:39 as i said, networking is irrelevant 16:19:41 AnMaster: another weird DOS problem is with NTVDM (Windows emulation of DOS) 16:19:46 or in this case, my irc client being a retard 16:19:55 where it slows down to a crawl after a while if you don't give a program any input 16:20:01 ais523: that's odd 16:20:06 you can see individual characters being printed on the screen one at a time 16:20:14 08:18:53 --- join: tusho (n=tusho@91.105.109.15) joined #esoteric 16:20:14 08:18:55 hi tusho 16:20:18 ais523: http://web.archive.org/web/20020816190021/http://homer.span.ch/~spaw1088/funge.html for instance 16:20:19 08:18:59 it's because in DOS, Control-C doesn't work until the next I/O operation by the running program 16:20:19 08:18:59 so it makes it possible to break an infinite loop with Control-C if you do useless IO 16:20:19 08:19:00 I see 16:20:19 08:19:14 very interesting 16:20:20 pressing control, though, or any other modifier key, puts it back to full speed again 16:20:21 08:19:14 hi ais523 16:20:23 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.07.03 16:20:29 AnMaster: do you have to do that every day? I think I've made the game pretty clear 16:20:34 [16:18] hi tusho [16:19] hi ais523 16:20:38 _network_ _and_ _client_ _lag_ _are_ _irrelevant_ 16:20:40 it's about reflexes 16:20:44 tusho: well, I'm playing to different rules than you 16:20:47 ais523: the other long TRDS comment is in the main function or thereabouts 16:21:00 Deewiant, there is one in ip too 16:21:01 ais523: in that case, I'll DDoS freenode before connecting 16:21:02 iirc 16:21:16 quite possible 16:21:25 TRDS is pervasive, you'll find bits of it everywhere :-P 16:21:27 tusho: well, do your logs say when you sent the message? 16:21:27 hah, AnMaster is doing TRDS 16:21:32 ais523: yep 16:21:33 tusho, no I'm not 16:21:35 tusho: no he isn't 16:21:39 tusho, I'm talking about it 16:21:39 oh, okay 16:22:23 ais523: one sec, finding the logs 16:22:32 ais523, why is that slow down? 16:22:38 AnMaster: no idea 16:22:43 probably the Windows scheduler being stupid 16:22:59 ais523, does it only affect ntvdm? 16:23:06 AnMaster: as far as I know 16:23:12 uh, what's the date today ais523 16:23:15 :-| 16:23:22 2008-07-03 18:23:12 ( tusho) uh, what's the date today ais523 16:23:27 tor jul 3 17:23:27 CEST 2008 16:23:28 tusho: thurs July 3 108 16:23:35 ais523: LOL 16:23:40 that's in Unix years, of course 16:23:45 ais523, hehe :) 16:23:50 03-07. kay 16:23:52 unix years? wouldn't that be 38 16:24:00 Deewiant: well, C measures from 1900 16:24:08 and so does POSIX, I think 16:24:11 yes 16:24:14 even though 1970 is the epoch when counting in seconds 16:24:21 ok wtf 16:24:25 my client isn't logging right now 16:24:28 it's logging to the july 2 file 16:24:37 aha 16:24:38 got it 16:24:48 timezones? 16:25:07 AnMaster: tusho is, I suspect, in GMT+1 right now 16:25:12 as is ais523 , yes 16:25:32 ah 16:25:44 ais523, how does UTC and GMT differ? 16:25:51 GMT=UTC 16:25:53 GMT+1=BST 16:25:54 AnMaster: the handling of leap seconds, I think 16:25:56 ah yes 16:25:57 otherwise they're identical 16:25:57 aha 16:26:00 but for all practical purposes 16:26:02 I meant UTC, anyway 16:26:33 ais523: tushohi ais523 16:26:38 16:20:02 16:26:42 when did you send yours? 16:27:07 tusho: that can't be right, your message arrived for me a little after 16:19 16:27:16 tusho, sync your clock 16:27:18 ais523: yes, our clocks are different 16:27:20 and I sent mine in the last few seconds of 16:18 16:27:22 AnMaster: my clock is automatically sync'd 16:27:24 to nt 16:27:24 p 16:27:27 tusho: so's mine 16:27:27 it's ais523's that's wrong 16:27:29 17:19:14 hi ais523 16:27:37 right now 16:27:39 and before 16:27:39 17:18:55 hi tusho 16:27:41 it is 16:28 16:27:45 tor jul 3 15:27:45 UTC 2008 16:27:50 that is correct time 16:27:54 set using nytp 16:27:56 ntp* 16:28:06 ais523: your clock is wrong, I believe 16:28:20 tusho: I just checked, it's NTP'd 16:28:31 ais523: so is mine, to time.euro.apple.com 16:28:37 tusho, that could be it 16:28:47 I am going to write the time as I see it when I start typing the next line: 16:28:50 16:28:47 16:28:56 I use pool.ntp.org which is geodns iirc so it points to Swedish time servers 16:29:00 darn it, TRDS has almost entirely satisfied my thirt for implementing time travel 16:29:16 ais523: > Also, the HTML version of the Notary's report omits the AAA. 16:29:16 Really? I'll have to look into how that happened. 16:29:17 mine's synced to JANET 16:29:18 i think your input has a bug 16:29:30 ais523, what about pool.ntp.org? 16:29:33 enough to make me not want to spend the time, but not enough to not bother me anymore 16:29:55 olsner, what time? you won't spend it, you will gain it! 16:30:08 due to time paradoxes 16:30:09 :P 16:30:30 ais523, what is janet's ntp server? 16:30:32 AnMaster: I've added that one too 16:30:42 just because you suggested it 16:30:43 ais523, pool.ntp.org is good 16:30:44 :) 16:30:53 tell me the hostname for JANET? 16:30:58 ja.net 16:31:09 3 Jul 17:31:05 ntpdate[13404]: can't find host ja.net 16:31:09 ? 16:31:19 ntp2.ja.net 16:31:21 is the NTP server 16:31:38 3 Jul 17:31:32 ntpdate[13412]: adjust time server 193.62.22.98 offset 0.002959 sec 16:31:40 hm 16:31:53 just checked using -q 16:32:01 ais523, try: 16:32:03 ntpdate -q pool.ntp.org 16:32:11 AnMaster: I don't think janet want you using their servers... 16:32:24 tusho, I just checked their time server to see if it was off or not 16:32:25 ... 16:32:32 3 Jul 16:32:17 ntpdate[12689]: adjust time server 130.226.232.145 offset 0.013661 sec 16:32:35 well, apple's is highly likely to be correct :-) 16:32:41 them being a big corp and it being default-sync'd for all macs 16:32:48 3 Jul 17:29:05 ntpdate[13376]: adjust time server 17.72.255.11 offset 0.002143 sec 16:32:50 is the apple one 16:33:07 and my clock is synced to pool.ntp.org 16:33:21 anyway, I'm fairly certain as for hitting-enter-time I won as I did it immediately after it joined 16:33:27 vs typing hi t 16:33:33 but, network-wise 16:33:36 ais523 won and always will 16:33:45 tusho, fix your client maybe 16:34:27 AnMaster: i don't care that much 16:34:38 I guess you always start hacking on code that doesn't behave exactly as you want, too? 16:34:54 tusho, well I often do 16:34:56 tusho: maybe not always, but I did in the case of Nibbles 16:35:02 and sent off the patches to Gnome 16:35:03 I have fixed some issues in my irc client 16:35:04 erc 16:35:07 so this sort of thing is not unknown 16:35:12 ais523: of course, but 'So fix it!' does not really work for software. 16:35:24 and same I sent patches upstream to gentoo 16:35:41 for valgrind errors in the q tool suite 16:35:59 AnMaster: so YOU removed that MD_update call as an attempt to sabotage debian! 16:36:03 no 16:36:04 I didn't 16:36:07 :) 16:36:09 tusho, I fixed it the right way 16:36:12 when I fixed it 16:36:59 which was to check return value of readlink() 16:37:09 as it doesn't null-terminate the string 16:37:30 AnMaster: s/string/array of characters/ 16:37:41 in C, it isn't a string if it isn't null-terminated 16:38:14 ais523, well you could implement your own string 16:38:20 struct safestr { 16:38:24 size_t len; 16:38:29 char data[] 16:38:30 }; 16:38:41 that would be C99, but similar can be done otherwise too 16:38:45 AnMaster: yes, but it wouldn't be a C string 16:38:49 agreed 16:39:05 and yes, that works in practice but not in theory in C89 as long as you put something inside the square brackets 16:39:25 ais523, you could put it as a pointer 16:39:34 more or less same functionality 16:39:43 not exactly of course 16:40:40 or could probably be done with some macros 16:41:53 (char*)(mysafestrpointer + sizeof(size_t)) 16:41:54 XD 16:42:16 malloc would be painful though 16:47:13 ais523, can you paste current ffungi stuff somewhere? 16:47:19 I'm eager to see your fingerprint 16:47:24 AnMaster: doing something else right now, but I will soon 16:47:30 ok 16:53:49 ais523, do you understand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:INTERCAL_Circuitous_Diagram.svg 16:53:53 I certainly don't 16:54:00 I do 16:54:03 oh? 16:54:04 it's very simple 16:54:09 tusho, lier 16:54:10 I think it's a joke 16:54:12 it re-calculates the B/7 at each step, though 16:54:23 note that the bit at the end is defined so vaguely it could mean anything 16:54:26 also, there's an error in it 16:54:27 and it could get a Mornington Crescent in 3 16:54:33 one of the boxes has the wrong number of inputs 16:54:40 tusho, hey that is another game 16:54:57 ais523, oh what one? 16:55:15 AnMaster: I can't remember 16:55:19 it wasn't me who found the error 16:55:27 although it sparked a bit of discussion on Usenet a while back IIRC 16:55:37 ais523, anyway what does it mean exactly? 16:55:44 what is it trying to describe 16:55:50 AnMaster: the select operator 16:55:54 however, I think it's a joke 16:56:03 ais523, can you tell me what the select operator does then 16:56:03 because a circuit diagram for select wouldn't look like that 16:56:05 in the normal way 16:56:18 ais523: also, it's captioned Bus Line 8 and has place names along the side... 16:56:33 AnMaster: http://rafb.net/p/2BWylE78.html <--- IFFI so far 16:56:53 AnMaster: OK, select's a binary operator (i.e. it has two operands) 16:56:59 right 16:57:03 and it's bitwise, in that it operates on the binary representations of its operands 16:57:14 ok nothing odd so far 16:57:41 suppose you write both operands in binary; then the least significant bit of the output is the bit of the left operand corresponding to the least significant set bit of the right operand 16:57:49 same for the second-least, third-least, and so on 16:57:55 that's a bit confusing, so an example will probably help 16:58:10 oh you mean like: 16:58:14 00101 16:58:20 00011 16:58:22 results in 16:58:27 01000 16:58:29 or ? 16:58:32 no, 00001 16:58:40 basically, for 00101 ~ 00011 16:58:44 oh it is like bitwise and? 16:58:56 yes, imagine a right-justified bitwise and 16:59:07 right justified? ah 16:59:10 so 00101 ~ 00110 is 00010 16:59:14 well mine was left justified 16:59:17 right 16:59:18 I see 16:59:22 oh btw: char * ick_iffi_befungeString <-- one issue. try to compile that with -Wwrite-strings 16:59:29 it should be const char * 16:59:37 AnMaster: ah, ok 16:59:40 because literal strings in C are really const char * 16:59:48 it shouldn't be a problem because I only ever use it as const char * 16:59:53 however char * is supported for compatiblity 17:00:01 ais523, well it makes me feel ill :P 17:00:03 AnMaster: yes, and I declare strings as char * for compatibility 17:00:05 but OK 17:00:17 hah 17:00:45 AnMaster: could you try and explain your philosophy to me? C is the most ugly, hackish, awkward, low-level language that twiddles bits ever, and yet you try and encapsulate it and have 'clean', well-guarded code 17:00:47 it makes no sense 17:00:47 ais523, there is no need to declare it like that for compatibility really (unless your function prototypes are wrong) however compilers need to support it for compatiblity 17:00:58 tusho, that is your opinion 17:01:06 AnMaster: lots of library functions take char * arguments 17:01:12 AnMaster: no, i'm pretty sure C being a low-level, hacky bit-twiddling language is fact 17:01:14 and so give warnings if you try to pass const char * to them 17:01:24 ais523, in POSIX API? 17:01:24 even though they don't modify their argument 17:01:34 AnMaster: in POSIX/C99 they fixed it, I think 17:01:37 I'm not sure about C89, though 17:01:40 hm 17:01:50 it's definitely fixed for C++ 17:01:54 but C has a lot of inertia 17:02:18 static void ick_InterpreterRun() 17:02:21 that got another issue 17:02:23 static void ick_InterpreterRun(void) 17:02:29 oh, yes, of course 17:02:30 would be the prototype 17:02:37 sorry 17:02:42 not that it makes any difference in this case 17:02:48 indeed 17:03:01 so you write K&R C still? 17:03:01 ;P 17:03:04 does it actually matter for anything in practice 17:03:10 Deewiant, it may 17:03:15 Deewiant, if a header contains: 17:03:19 int foo(); 17:03:30 then a compiler will accept passing anything to it 17:03:35 I sometimes write K&R: it's much nicer to write void foo(x, y, z, w) const double x, y, z, w; than writing const double 4 times 17:03:36 without giving a warning or error 17:03:38 Deewiant: if you put void in the parens, a compiler will error if you try to pass the function arguments, if you leave it out, the compiler has to accept it but produces UB instead 17:03:42 AnMaster: yes, I realize that 17:03:52 my question was does it matter in practice 17:03:59 there's one point in C-INTERCAL where I deliberately leave the parens empty 17:04:01 Deewiant, as for double, well you got the horrible "expanding" type issue then 17:04:03 it protects from an error of accidentally passing an argument 17:04:07 you can't pass a float that way 17:04:08 after having been told to do so by comp.lang.c 17:04:17 but does it actually generate different code or anything like that 17:04:18 originally I had stuff there 17:04:24 but it required ugly casts 17:04:33 hm well I know one such case too 17:04:37 in crossfire server code 17:04:39 (Situation: I needed to write a function which was capable of taking a pointer to itself as an argument) 17:04:49 AnMaster: huh? the point was that K&R is sometimes more succint 17:04:52 the best would be to use a union of different function pointers 17:05:07 Deewiant, maybe, but I prefer ANSI C 17:05:20 (Situation: I needed to write a function which was capable of taking a pointer to itself as an argument) <-- ok, and? 17:05:21 AnMaster: K&R is legal in ANSI C 17:05:21 Ruby has an awful lot of K&R C code 17:05:24 at least in C89 17:05:29 there are a few files entirely or almost entirely using K&R C 17:05:29 AnMaster: try to figure out what type the function is 17:05:30 ais523, yes it is 17:05:34 but I don't like it 17:05:41 ais523: GCC at least accepts it in C99 mode as well 17:05:45 ais523, hm 17:05:51 haven't checked the standard to see if that's correct but I suspect it is 17:05:51 Deewiant, it is legal in C99 too yes 17:05:56 afaik 17:06:11 however I find I prefer compiler to be able to check arguments 17:06:52 anyway, the simple way to do that is to have an unprototyped function pointer, making the function void(*)(void(*)()) 17:07:04 more verified at compile time = less bugs at runtime 17:07:14 you can call prototyped functions through them, apparently, as long as you aren't using types that autopromote 17:07:34 ais523, idea: 17:07:46 union mydifferentvariants { 17:07:54 void(*)(void(*)(int foo)) 17:07:58 void(*)(void(*)(double bar)) 17:07:59 } 17:08:03 make the code valid of course 17:08:07 AnMaster: I only had one sort of function pointer 17:08:12 some ; and a lot more like names missing there 17:08:19 ais523, oh? 17:08:24 but it's impossible to write 17:08:24 void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void 17:08:24 (*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)( 17:08:27 void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)( 17:08:29 in C 17:08:33 going on forever 17:08:36 ais523: awesome prototype 17:08:37 oh 17:08:38 haha 17:08:38 so the infinite regress has to stop somewhere 17:08:45 ais523: how about 17:08:51 ais523, yes then it makes sense to have it empty 17:08:55 taking the func ptr as (void *) ... wait, no, that's not valid 17:08:56 oh well 17:09:13 ais523, that is one rare case 17:09:13 (can't cast data ptr to func ptr) 17:09:27 tusho, well you have to, see dlsym 17:09:30 tusho: you can use void(*)() as a func ptr equivalent of void* 17:09:40 because function pointers can be freely casted back and forth 17:09:42 it needs casts though 17:09:43 AnMaster: dlsym requires you to break the standard 17:09:51 tusho, yes I know :/ 17:10:02 ais523: yes 17:10:08 besides, I've personally worked on systems where functions and data were in different memory 17:10:17 ais523, oh? 17:10:17 and function pointers and data pointers were different lengths 17:10:26 thus making intercasting kind-of difficult 17:10:28 ais523, they couldn't use shared libraries then? 17:10:42 AnMaster: well, seeing as they only had a few KB of RAM, the situation never came up 17:10:46 ah 17:13:11 ais523, why is ick_iffi_resuming an int? 17:13:16 shouldn't it be a bool? 17:13:31 I'm writing C89 there, more or less 17:13:31 you are C99 anyway as you use uint32_t 17:13:35 so there isn't a bool type 17:13:39 and I know I use uint32_t 17:13:54 but that's actually typedeffed in ick_ec.h if it doesn't exist already 17:14:11 so it works for me even in C89 17:14:33 besides, it's possible that some day I may want the rest of C-INTERCAL to look at those flags for some reason 17:14:43 %url:http://example.com <-- well I hope you fix that at some point, in the funge-108 specs, some form of URIs will be used to load fingerprints 17:14:53 AnMaster: I will fix that eventually 17:15:00 but I don't have an URL for it yet 17:15:03 ah 17:15:14 anyway it is likely to change to java style 17:15:26 because some issues I found with current 17:15:38 java style 17:15:39 ais523, I have to see how to solve it 17:15:39 eurgh 17:15:46 tusho, two fingerprints on one page 17:15:53 that is why a straight url won't work 17:15:55 AnMaster: that's not what a URI is 17:16:02 a URI doesn't have to resolve 17:16:06 tusho, true, uri is wider 17:16:08 a URI is just a universal locator 17:16:10 AnMaster: and 17:16:16 http://mypage.com/befunge#myext1 17:16:17 http://mypage.com/befunge#myext2 17:16:19 yes 17:16:24 hm maybe 17:16:26 so, keep them as just regular URIs 17:16:42 tusho, there were no anchors on that page 17:16:56 tusho: can you make a place on eso-std.org to act as somewhere to store databases required by esolangs 17:16:57 also it is gone, should I do way back machine link or what?! 17:17:02 such as for Funge-108 and for PSOX? 17:17:09 ais523: funge-108 will be distributed... 17:17:11 they'll just be uris... 17:17:15 yes 17:17:16 tusho: yes, I know 17:17:17 doesn't need a DB 17:17:24 tusho is right 17:17:25 but somewhere where people can create pages to describe fingerprints 17:17:27 so the URIs exist 17:17:31 ais523: uris don't have to _exist_ 17:17:39 ais523, well I assume they will use their own websites 17:17:42 tusho: no, but it would be helpful if they did 17:17:45 ais523: yes, true 17:17:45 ok 17:17:46 not everyone has their own website 17:17:46 how about 17:17:51 http://funge.eso-std.org/author/ext 17:17:52 like 17:18:04 http://funge.eso-std.org/tusho/replace_cfunge_with_sane_interp 17:18:05 ;) 17:18:17 anyway it could be: org.eso-std.funge.whatever 17:18:27 or maybe not 17:18:28 ;P 17:18:28 AnMaster: no 17:18:29 tusho: anyway, I think it fits ESO's mission to attempt to document all the fingerprints even if they're documented elsewhere 17:18:31 that's horrible and pointless 17:18:33 and not a real URI :) 17:18:34 tusho, yes I guess so 17:18:37 it omits http:// 17:18:40 true 17:18:42 so you can't use ftp:// or gopher:// 17:18:43 or whatever 17:18:47 ah true 17:18:52 -!- olsner has quit. 17:18:54 gopher://inspircd.dyndns.org :D 17:18:57 gopher:// would be fucking evil, though 17:18:57 :) 17:19:03 tusho, yes :) 17:19:09 AnMaster: nttp:// 17:19:11 *nntp 17:19:13 tusho, does eso-std have gopher? 17:19:18 no 17:19:21 why not? 17:19:25 why? 17:19:30 good question 17:19:31 we only have 256mb of ram 17:19:32 and apache is a hog 17:19:34 oh 17:19:36 true 17:19:39 lighttpd > apache 17:19:47 i've told you why we don't use lighttpd, AnMaster 17:19:51 ais523, one thing 17:19:59 ais523, why extern int in the source file 17:20:06 ais523, it should be in a header file IMO, but ok 17:20:16 oh wait 17:20:17 sorry 17:20:20 AnMaster: which occurence of extern int? 17:20:20 misread that 17:20:26 thought you used nested extern 17:20:45 I read in wrong place 17:21:55 ais523, for FingerIFFIload() the first load stuff seems odd? 17:22:11 oh wait I see what you do I think 17:22:12 AnMaster: basically loading IFFI for the first time signifies the end of the initialisation 17:22:22 reloading it in future has no effect because you aren't in initialisation 17:22:25 true 17:23:05 afk food 17:27:35 ais523: "CFJ 2028 assigned to root ais523" 17:27:36 hah 17:27:39 er, move to ##nomic 17:28:10 ais523, well IFFI looks quite nice 17:28:13 quite readable even 17:28:22 yes, the fingerprint itself is sane 17:28:24 AnMaster: it's not iffy enough then 17:28:28 glue.c99 is the silly part 17:28:33 ais523, well I don't fully agree with the brace style but heh 17:28:39 after all, I'm even using magic internal identifiers in it 17:28:46 I do separate for functions and same line for other stuff 17:28:47 :) 17:28:56 AnMaster: oh, I didn't realise, I'll try to fix taht 17:29:03 also IFFI.h has the wrong copyright information, but I'll fix that too 17:29:11 I forgot to credit me, and the GPL says I have to 17:29:17 yes you should 17:31:18 ais523, you should document each extern in the fingerprint header with doxygen to follow the style of cfunge ;P 17:31:36 AnMaster: maybe, but half of them don't make sense outside the concept of IFFI 17:31:48 well true, but I don't understand half of them either 17:31:49 as they're all flags to communicate with the main loop 17:31:53 ick_iffi_sucking? 17:32:24 ais523, what the heck is ick_iffi_sucking? 17:32:37 AnMaster: checking for suckpoints 17:32:43 and what are they? 17:32:51 AnMaster: COME FROMs and NEXT FROMs 17:33:01 referred to as suckpoints because they can suck in control from elsewhere in the code 17:33:17 ah 17:33:36 ais523, also why mixed spaces and tabs in the main file? 17:33:38 :( 17:33:55 the mix doesn't seem sane to me, sure I accept you use your own coding style 17:33:56 no problem 17:34:01 but why do you mix them? 17:34:04 AnMaster: it's the usual way to indent that most people use, 2 spaces = 1 indent, 1 tab = 4 indents 17:34:14 basically lots of spaces at the start of a line are turned into tabs by most editors 17:34:15 with tab = 8 17:34:28 well... mixed is the worst variant IMO 17:34:47 -*- mode: C; coding: utf-8; tab-width: 2; indent-tabs-mode: t; c-basic-offset: 2 -*- 17:34:54 ais523, that should work for your style? 17:35:17 AnMaster: not really, because I always have tab-width set to 8 so I can read everyone else's files 17:35:26 ais523: mixed spaces and tabs make me want to kill people 17:35:29 as it upsets you, I might set it to spaces only 17:35:30 stupid fucking emacs defaults 17:35:35 hmm 17:35:37 tusho, I agree there 17:35:41 ais523: SELL TICKET 17:35:44 5VP 17:35:45 ais523, well I'm happy with spaces only 17:35:48 Action: switch to tabs only 17:35:53 (i think that's a sell ticket) 17:35:55 or tabs only 17:35:59 issue is mixing them :( 17:36:01 tusho: yes, it would be, but wrong channel 17:36:07 ais523: no, note the action 17:36:18 tusho: it could be either 17:36:21 depending on who filed the ticket 17:36:27 ais523: I will pay you 5VP to switch to tabs only 17:36:32 :-P 17:36:36 then it's a Buy ticket with me as target 17:36:47 ais523, where is the middot? can't find it 17:37:00 AnMaster: 0xB7 17:37:06 but there isn't one in the code at the moment 17:37:10 ais523, I mean in your ick_iffi_befungeString 17:37:11 ah right 17:37:19 because that would be handled by a bit of ick I haven't written yet 17:37:33 what you see there is after that bit's been done 17:37:36 and I did it by hand 17:37:41 although I got it wrong and will need to fix that 17:38:02 ais523, any cfunge questions btw? 17:38:32 AnMaster: for a while I was thinking that an easy way to duplicate IPs would have been helpful, but after a while I realised it wouldn't be and in fact if it was there I wouldn't be using it 17:38:33 ais523, oh also you can remove the line "// TODO: Add code to template functions" from your fingerprint as you have done it 17:38:34 :P 17:39:02 ais523, there is an easy way if you compile with concurrency, so you could resuse that code I guess 17:39:10 AnMaster: yes, I noticed 17:39:13 but I don't need that any more 17:41:02 your fingerprint isn't safe? interesting, well I guess that is correct as you can't sandbox intercal? 17:41:21 AnMaster: INTERCAL's safe atm, but it's possible to link to C via that FFI too 17:41:24 and that can't be sandboxed 17:41:28 ah true 17:41:35 ais523, well it can technically 17:41:39 well, not easily 17:41:58 besides CLC-INTERCAL has file I/O so I may end up implementing that at some point 17:42:07 ais523, LD_PRELOAD trick maybe 17:42:08 0-bit variables and all 17:42:25 AnMaster: even then, the C could have inline asm and make syscalls directly 17:42:27 0-bit variable!? 17:42:34 ais523, hm true :/ 17:42:35 AnMaster: they have no value, but can have metadata 17:42:42 variables tend to gather a lot of metadata in CLC-INTERCAL 17:42:52 I see 17:42:56 sort of like a 0-length file can have a filename 17:42:59 which holds information 17:43:34 oh and attributes if the file system supports it 17:43:38 yep 17:43:47 -!- cherez1 has joined. 17:44:30 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:48:13 hi Sgeo 17:48:25 hi ais523 17:48:49 -!- cherez1 has left (?). 17:50:46 -!- timotiis has joined. 17:54:07 -!- cherez1 has joined. 17:57:21 damn 17:57:23 "SVG does not support specifying an image background color" 17:57:55 presumably you just have to draw a large filled rectangle, then, and put everything on top of it 17:58:44 hm 17:58:53 good ideq 17:58:54 idea* 18:00:55 -!- cherez1 has changed nick to cherez. 18:12:36 -!- Dewi has quit ("leaving"). 18:12:52 -!- Dewi has joined. 18:18:35 oklopol: ok, I'm back for a bit 18:19:57 RodgerTheGreat: "functions leave a 'return value' by storing a pointer to their result in the memory location the main pointer was at when the function was called." 18:19:59 Hmm. 18:20:07 How would that work with the C calling interface? 18:20:28 hm 18:20:40 that's one of the parts I haven't thought about much 18:20:41 (either the return value or the pointer to the return value is in eax, IIRC) 18:20:57 are return values really all that necessary? 18:21:18 so far all the examples we've worked with do great with just pass-by-reference for everything 18:21:31 Ah. 18:21:33 hm. although I imagine it would impair using some existing C libs 18:21:41 This is easy. 18:22:22 Just make the Brainfuck calling interface store the return value in eax, and then the calling function does 'mov eax, pointer'. 18:22:50 that makes sense 18:23:37 do we want a sort of dual nature to functions, so they can return a pointer or a value? 18:24:08 the method you described ought to work for either, the coder just has to remember which is which 18:24:32 and it might call for having two different kinds of return statements 18:24:56 Doesn't make sense to have two different kinds of return statements. 18:24:59 RodgerTheGreat, um? 18:25:01 what are you doing? 18:25:05 that isn't portable 18:25:08 The coder just needs to know if the value in question is a pointer or a value. 18:25:20 RodgerTheGreat, that totally breaks amd64 calling convention 18:25:21 and PPC one 18:25:29 AnMaster: it's his own cpu 18:25:30 i think 18:25:33 ah 18:25:35 AnMaster: we're discussing an x86-specific calling convention. 18:25:36 he said EAX 18:25:37 but the PPC doesn't have an eax I don't think 18:25:49 pikhq, I see 18:25:56 but the result will be portable I assume? 18:26:00 In fact, trying to make Def-BF's calling convention compatible with the standard C calling convention. 18:26:10 We're compiling to assembly, for crisssake. 18:26:14 oh you are 18:26:17 what a pitty 18:26:24 http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215028173.html 18:26:35 What about that reads 'portable code' to you? :p 18:26:38 Def-BF is more utilitarian than most esolangs 18:27:06 RodgerTheGreat, will it be portable to other platforms than x86 or not? 18:27:12 we also have this example of high-level code, which oklopol pointed out some issues with: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215053310.html 18:27:19 lemme debug that now, actually 18:27:34 AnMaster: eventually. x86 is the main target. 18:27:34 Sure, but the actual *code* will probably be only as portable as C code doing the same thing. 18:27:53 great 18:28:14 ais523, how goes ffungi? 18:28:23 I haven't started work on it yet today 18:28:32 but as you've seen, it went quite a way while I wasn't online 18:28:39 yes indeed 18:28:48 I, personally, plan to use Def-BF to write the holy grail of esolang coding. 18:28:49 ais523, maybe that was the cause of it getting that far? ;P 18:28:50 Brainfuck OS. 18:29:01 pikhq, hah 18:29:08 Brainfuck OS isn't very unique. 18:29:15 BF is a pretty typical low-level lang. 18:29:19 Things like Underload are interesting for OS 18:29:20 ' though, 18:29:25 *', though 18:29:40 ais523, could you make it possible to write an OS in intercal? 18:29:43 tusho: BF doesn't actually suffice for writing an OS, though. 18:29:49 AnMaster: what I have to do next is to figure out the other place I have to use ick_l1_ICK_EC_PP_1 18:29:50 well I guess it would be using the ec stuff 18:29:52 pikhq: So? :P 18:29:57 and those magic identifiers are a pain to think about 18:30:02 And I don't think anyone has really done it. 18:30:05 ais523, use what? 18:30:14 what is ick_l1_ICK_EC_PP_1? 18:30:17 basically it's the internals of the external calls code 18:30:23 it gets replaced by a goto label 18:30:25 The closest someone's gotten involves a very low-level Brainfuck interpreter. 18:30:30 http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215106118.html 18:30:34 and each occurence of it can get replaced by a different goto label 18:30:39 ^ that should fix what oklopol pointed out 18:30:42 ick is responsible for pointing them all at the right target 18:30:49 ais523, you mean you need to code intercal side? 18:30:56 and now there aren't any completely useless functions 18:31:05 AnMaster: no, the remaining stuff is on the glue.c99 side 18:31:15 where I have to use magic identifiers to hook into the NEXT targetting code 18:31:22 I see 18:31:55 RodgerTheGreat, is there any implementation? 18:32:06 this is what pikhq is working on 18:32:12 No; I plan to write one this weekend. 18:32:22 hrrm 18:32:22 Should be *ridiculously* simple to compile to assembly. 18:32:23 I wrote the original spec, and the two of us are refining it 18:32:23 I 18:32:34 I'm also helping with the standard libs 18:32:49 RodgerTheGreat, they are coded in the language itself I assume? 18:32:56 yes 18:33:01 Sure, but they don't need to be. 18:33:09 Def-BF will be self-hosting, in theory 18:33:25 Def-BF on Linux should, in theory, be able to use libc. 18:33:36 pikhq, well if you will write an OS in it you need raw access to stuff like interrupts 18:33:42 and certain other opcodes 18:33:44 and we already have some weak capabilities for doing inline assembly 18:33:52 you will need inline asm as far as I can see 18:33:58 RodgerTheGreat, nice 18:33:58 ^ 18:34:05 C doesn't need to be able to do that; it can call external asm functions. ;) 18:34:16 true 18:34:24 And Def-BF can do likewise. 18:34:30 C wrappers are a much cleaner way to do the assembly, but it's still possible without them 18:34:58 RodgerTheGreat, what about a C -> Def-BF compiler? 18:35:00 Def-BF's support is more like "inline machinecode" than inline assembly, really 18:35:16 AnMaster: I don't think that'd be terribly easy, but it should be possible 18:35:20 some parts would be easy 18:35:27 C -> Def-BF would look something like Gregor's CBF. 18:35:28 ;) 18:35:33 RodgerTheGreat, then you could compile linux to it? 18:35:38 and then compile linux to native 18:35:39 XD 18:35:40 theoretically 18:35:56 linux pretty much depends on gcc though 18:36:28 I doubt enough of linux is written in portable ANSI-C to count on being able to convert it 18:36:36 I'd be more likely to write a Def-BF backend for GCC. 18:36:52 and it'd probably run like molasses without proper optimization 18:37:24 RodgerTheGreat: if jsmips can run at acceptable speed... 18:37:31 * RodgerTheGreat shrugs 18:37:40 I never said it wasn't possible, just not easy 18:42:27 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1""). 18:43:31 RodgerTheGreat: jsmips is totally unoptimised 18:43:32 :-P 18:43:55 there's a difference between running a shell and running the linux kernel, dude. 18:44:08 RodgerTheGreat: Nonsense 18:44:08 :-P 18:46:02 And there's a huge difference when the Linux kernel is running a shell. ;) 18:46:04 Deewiant, there? 18:46:23 \o 18:46:25 I got a question: is "real" in D a double or a float? 18:46:33 it's a long double 18:46:47 or I guess that's the closest equivalent in C, anyway 18:46:51 Deewiant, well that is x86 specific iirc? 18:47:04 it's the biggest natively supported floating point type 18:47:05 iiuc, Def-BF solves the problem that's been bugging me that motivated me to start PSOX 18:47:18 largest hardware implemented floating point size (Implementation Note: 80 bits for Intel CPUs) 18:47:48 Sgeo: oh? 18:47:51 Deewiant, for x86_64 it would be a double as x86_64 use SSE instead of the "so called legacy" x87 18:48:19 AnMaster: surely x86-64 supports x87 as well 18:48:25 but in any case, I don't really care 18:48:27 Deewiant, it does, but it is marked as legacy 18:48:29 :) 18:48:33 if you do, run GDC on something and see what comes out 18:48:37 (DMD only generates x86 code) 18:48:41 The reason I started PSOX is because I noticed that "A BF program can do anything another computer program can do" was incorrect 18:48:48 Deewiant, anyway that isn't the issue here 18:48:51 Sgeo: Stunning observation there. 18:48:52 AnMaster: I'd suspect that on SSE-supporting CPUs, GDC and DMD make real SSE-sized. 18:49:00 DMD won't. 18:49:07 Deewiant, can you build ccbi will full debug info? 18:49:21 no optimizing 18:49:22 Sgeo: With Def-BF implemented, that will be true. 18:49:27 DMD doesn't generate code for MMX or SSE etc. extensions 18:49:27 I want to figure out something I don't get 18:49:28 ;) 18:49:33 what don't you get 18:49:55 Deewiant: Apparently, DMD sucks. 18:49:57 it'd be a fair bit of trouble for me to build a linux binary now so I'd rather not bother 18:50:01 pikhq: yep! 18:50:02 Deewiant, I want to trace your and mine TURT to see why mine get margins/scale all fucked up (your get the other stuff fucked up) 18:50:04 if nothing else, Def-BF gives BF programmers the ability to modularize and re-use code. When that's combined with interfacing to C, you have a tremendous amount of power, and it becomes quite feasible for systems programming (by esolang standards, anyway) 18:50:11 Deewiant, and that part of the code shouldn't differ 18:50:12 heh 18:50:19 and I can't figure out from my code 18:50:19 RodgerTheGreat: It becomes quite feasible by any standards. 18:50:22 can't you just trace your own 18:50:47 Deewiant, I have and well the logic seems correct but why does it come up at different answer than your? 18:50:57 it's a little more obscure than most high-level languages, but pikhq is right- it's astonishingly readable and clear 18:50:59 well that's what printf is for :-P 18:51:12 Link to Def-BF? 18:51:13 and valgrind, etc. 18:51:15 The big things you need for systems programming is being able to run without an interpreter, the ability to write directly to memory, and the ability to call arbitrary assembly. 18:51:19 http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215028173.html 18:51:34 Deewiant, I tried it, and I really want to trace your code, to check whenever the in memory path differ or if it is just the printing stuff that is broken 18:51:36 :/ 18:51:51 and once again, the example program: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215106118.html 18:52:07 Deewiant, so please make a debug build -O0 -ggdb3 style (well I don't know what your compiler call it) 18:52:20 Just being able to have functions makes the whole thing much, much easier to write in. 18:52:24 Deewiant, if gdb doesn't work on dmd binaries? maybe gdc? 18:52:40 (kinda like having macros makes PEBBLE much easier to write in than straight Brainfuck) 18:53:10 pikhq, how does unbalanced [] work? 18:53:19 does it keep track of where it was? 18:53:24 AnMaster: try iki.fi/deewiant/ccbi 18:53:31 Deewiant, asec 18:53:37 no idea what version of the source that is but at least it built :-P 18:53:42 AnMaster: dude, do it yourself 18:53:42 in my mind? Unbalanced [] works just the same as it does in Brainfuck. 18:53:44 :| 18:53:45 I basically tried to design a minimal extension to BF that made it possible to cleanly provide functions and other abstractions (code reuse, for example), and the side effect of that is that interfacing with other languages starts to become possible 18:53:46 Namely: it doesn't. 18:53:50 Deewiant, testing a sec 18:53:54 saying "Hey, you, recompile" isn't very nice 18:54:02 AnMaster: you can effectively make GOSUB/RETURN calls now 18:54:19 I wouldn't have done it but it turns out the machine I'm running irssi on has a copy of the source in a buildable state 18:54:24 so it wasn't as much work as I thought 18:55:33 RodgerTheGreat: You know, it might be nice to be able to do both pass by value and pass by reference. 18:55:37 Single stepping until exit from function main, 18:55:38 which has no line number information. 18:55:38 hm 18:55:40 hm 18:55:52 Deewiant, that is gdc or dmd? 18:56:04 hm 18:56:12 maybe I should actually build the object files too and not just link with -g :-P 18:56:14 It'd make calling out to C easier. 18:56:18 Deewiant, hah 18:56:27 AnMaster: try again 18:56:29 don't want to sacrifice usability or clarity, though 18:56:37 printf("%i", foo); wouldn't need a wrapper. 18:56:51 bbl- classes 18:57:01 Deewiant, still no line number info 18:57:11 (as it is, doing var: formatstring "%i", followed by printf[formatstring, foo] would print the pointer to foo) 18:57:13 * AnMaster tries more 18:57:38 and now? 18:57:42 a sec 18:58:00 RodgerTheGreat: I propose just using a $ to indicate that you're passing a value, not a pointer, to the function. . . 18:58:14 So, one could do printf[formatstring, $foo], and voila. 18:58:23 pikhq: Why can't you just make it implicit like how C does it? 18:58:30 (or, if you insist on making it C-esque, make that & instead of $) 18:58:43 s/&/*/ 18:58:48 Deewiant, slightly better 18:58:48 pikhq: That would be better. 18:58:58 tusho: In C, one needs to do & to pass by reference. ;) 18:59:04 pikhq: Sounds good to me. 18:59:12 I don't like things messing wit mah variblz. 18:59:15 AnMaster: that one's is the best I can do: "add symbolic debug info, pretend to be C" 18:59:28 Deewiant, yay it works kind of 18:59:29 :D 18:59:34 Hrm. Now that makes me want to add string literals. :p 18:59:48 But, that's not going to be that easy to add to the language, and it honestly isn't needed. 19:00:20 pikhq: But it'd be really convenient 19:00:33 I'm willing to do without. 19:00:52 Much, much easier to implement, after all. ;) 19:00:56 pikhq: It'll bite you... 19:01:01 It won't be fun :P 19:01:08 Deewiant, ahah, mangled names 19:01:15 that explains a lot 19:01:16 It'll be no worse than coding in assembly. 19:01:19 of course they're mangled 19:01:23 _D4ccbi12fingerprints8cats_eye4turt12printDrawingFZv 19:01:24 :/ 19:01:34 D has a module system, unlike C. :-P 19:01:36 AnMaster: Eagerly awaiting your suggestions on how else to compile an OO languge. 19:01:49 tusho, there must be some way 19:01:52 pikhq: Assembly has string literals. 19:02:02 tusho, storing it as meta data in some other way? 19:02:05 And what about when you've wrote the base and you're writing some slightly higher stuff? 19:02:11 AnMaster: But you need _multiple things_ with the _same name_. 19:02:19 AnMaster: And it has to be _fast_ - no performance penalty. 19:02:22 tusho, yes that sucks 19:02:30 No it doesn't. foo: .asciiz "String here.\n" doesn't count in my mind. 19:02:35 so well I guess this is sane 19:02:35 pikhq: Well okay. 19:02:36 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:02:36 Even so. 19:02:43 When you're writing slightly higher-level stuff... 19:02:44 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:02:44 It'll be painful 19:02:45 And that much, Def-BF supports. 19:03:46 Deewiant, any idea how to access the pic static variable? 19:04:00 nope 19:04:05 183 if (turt.movedWithoutDraw && turt.penDown) 19:04:05 (gdb) print turt 19:04:07 No symbol "turt" in current context. 19:04:08 :( 19:04:37 print _D4ccbi12fingerprints8cats_eye4turt4turt 19:04:39 I think 19:04:53 (gdb) print _D4ccbi12fingerprints8cats_eye4turt4turtS4ccbi12fingerprints8cats_eye4turt6Turtle 19:04:53 $1 = {} 19:04:54 hm 19:05:33 Deewiant, it is the pic variable I want though 19:05:55 ah wait 19:05:57 (gdb) print _D4ccbi12fingerprints8cats_eye4turt3picS4ccbi12fingerprints8cats_eye4turt7Drawing 19:05:57 $2 = {} 19:05:59 :/ 19:06:24 AnMaster: It's not C 19:06:36 tusho, how do I get data from that variable then? 19:06:50 AnMaster: Manually look at the memory. 19:07:04 tusho, well I don't know what internal structure it use 19:07:06 you might want to look at http://www.dsource.org/projects/gdb-patches 19:07:29 or use http://www.zero-bugs.com/ instead 19:07:30 AnMaster: you're using a C debugger on a non-C prorgam 19:07:32 zomgz 19:07:34 it doesn't wurk!!1 19:07:50 can't you get a list of variables in scope or something 19:07:59 tusho, gdb works for C++ so well it was a faulty but reasonable assumption 19:08:09 ah, but I guess you did anyway 19:08:10 AnMaster: c++'s object layout is esoteric, I believe 19:08:24 C++'s object layout is impl-defined 19:08:33 oh well 19:08:41 http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/abi.html 19:08:58 (gdb) print dot 19:08:58 $6 = (void *) 0xf7f71fd0 19:08:59 sigh 19:09:05 AnMaster: print *dot 19:09:07 yeah guess so 19:09:10 print *(dot+1) 19:09:11 print *(dot+2) 19:09:12 ... 19:09:16 tusho, not 19:09:22 (gdb) print *dot 19:09:22 Attempt to dereference a generic pointer. 19:09:24 :P 19:09:30 casting it to char 19:10:00 might as well use int instead 19:10:05 so you see more data at once :-P 19:10:16 Deewiant, still doesn't make sense 19:10:30 what 19:10:35 the data 19:10:44 how 19:11:07 who's in the mood of being really generous and giving me a domain 19:11:08 <.< 19:11:25 Deewiant, it doesn't match what should be there logically, so I guess metadata 19:11:28 Cannot insert breakpoint 0. 19:11:29 Error accessing memory address 0x1: Input/output error. 19:11:34 now that is nice 19:11:38 what should be where logically 19:11:50 Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 19:11:51 0x080936ef in _D9invariant12_d_invariantFC6ObjectZv () 19:11:51 nice 19:12:13 your debugger doesn't support the language being debugged 19:12:14 Deewiant, what D debugger is there then? 19:12:21 for linux 19:12:22 2008-07-03 21:07:06 ( Deewiant) you might want to look at http://www.dsource.org/projects/gdb-patches 19:12:25 2008-07-03 21:07:29 ( Deewiant) or use http://www.zero-bugs.com/ instead 19:12:38 Deewiant, that means compiling gdb again which I know is hard 19:12:39 for windows there's ddbg which is really great 19:12:39 aha 19:13:18 oh cost money, well gdb patches it is then 19:13:27 they offer the 15 day trial 19:13:34 which I suppose you can violate 19:13:40 {:d4} 19:13:45 Deewiant, what exactly does that do? 19:13:45 %4d 19:13:53 not %.4d? 19:14:01 AnMaster: just use the 15 day trial :-P 19:14:02 not sure 19:14:08 put your ideology aside for tools which actually work// 19:14:25 you can look up C# formatting, probably has the best docs on the subject 19:14:35 unless tango has improved in this area lately 19:15:20 evidently the API still only offers " 19:15:20 evidently the API still only offers "The format notation is influenced by that used by the .NET and ICU frameworks, rather than C-style printf or D-style writef notation. 19:15:28 uh? 19:15:29 AnMaster: Compiling GDB is hard?!? 19:15:30 how did that happen 19:15:40 pikhq, maybe I remember wrong 19:15:42 What's so hard about ./configure&&make&&make install? 19:15:50 pikhq, 64-bit and 32-bit 19:16:00 Oh. Well, then. 19:16:10 Prefix all those commands with linux32, and you're set. 19:16:16 http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/wiki/ChapterConversions#Layoutsformatstring 19:16:21 Or just do linux32 bash, and then compile it. 19:16:26 Deewiant, is your getDec correct? 19:16:35 beats me 19:16:45 enum : tc { 19:16:45 PADDING = 10, 19:16:45 MIN = -16383_9999 + PADDING, 19:16:45 MAX = 16383_9999 - PADDING 19:16:45 } 19:16:48 int getInt(tc c) { return (c < 0 ? -c : c) / 1000; } 19:16:49 uint getDec(tc c) { return abs(cast(int)c) % 1000; } 19:16:54 shouldn't it be / 10000 19:16:58 rather than / 1000 19:17:04 Deewiant, ? 19:17:07 yep, apparently 19:17:22 Deewiant, well that explains some part 19:17:38 or should it? 19:17:46 yeah, it should 19:17:51 I was thinking about the padding but no 19:18:13 well that explains *one* part of my problem 19:18:31 Deewiant, also you use a turt.min but no turt.max? 19:18:53 I must have misunderstood it's meaning if there should only be the turt.min 19:19:14 it looks like Turtle only contains a min 19:19:21 Deewiant, yes and I wonder why 19:20:37 RodgerTheGreat: I don't think the import: feature is strictly needed. 19:20:51 I'm imagining this thing just calling out to the linker, you see. . . 19:20:56 AnMaster: so do I :-D 19:21:36 And it's not like you really have prototypes in Def-BF. . . 19:21:41 Deewiant, look at lines 299-307 in turt.d 19:21:46 that doesn't make sense 19:21:48 am looking 19:21:56 so, say 19:22:02 or wait, where does min come from 19:22:03 ? 19:22:12 Deewiant, min is set in newDraw() 19:22:15 whenever something is drawn, yes 19:22:16 or whatever it was called 19:22:20 so it really is the minimum point 19:22:21 okay 19:22:21 Deewiant, but why not max 19:22:25 WHAT? 19:22:28 I don't know, like said 19:22:37 Deewiant, you can have negative coordinates after all 19:22:56 should min be smallest not largest? 19:24:00 that's what I was thinking 19:24:04 so 19:24:06 the area is always square 19:24:09 so it's symmetrical 19:24:12 so we only need to track min 19:24:15 as max is -min 19:24:15 um is it? 19:24:16 or something 19:24:21 I can draw something non-symetrical 19:24:22 well we make it so 19:24:26 so that we center in the middle 19:24:29 aha 19:24:33 I guess 19:24:56 so if min is (-20,-20) 19:25:22 that comes out to (-20,-20) and (40,40), hmm 19:25:41 TBH I think that's crap :-D 19:27:00 needs a partial or complete rewrite 19:27:09 which I'll try and do on the weekend 19:27:56 Deewiant, agreed 19:29:04 but yeah, min = -max doesn't work because as you said if somebody draws only from 0 to -20 then the image should be (-20,-20) to (0,0) not (-20,-20) (20,20), the centre is wrong 19:29:08 so that's crap 19:29:15 and I can't see what the * 2 is about 19:30:03 Deewiant, you wrote it! 19:30:04 ;P 19:30:15 so? :-P 19:33:36 yay I got my margins correct 19:33:41 Deewiant, now I see the 2* 19:33:44 you got: 19:33:59 x,y,width,height 19:34:02 in viewbox 19:34:10 oh, okay 19:34:12 so you need 2xmargins for width and such 19:34:18 I thought it was minx, miny, maxx, maxy 19:34:26 Deewiant, anyway your margins were still messed up 19:34:31 but yeah, that makes sense 19:34:35 and yeah, like said above it's not smart 19:34:52 Deewiant, I do it with min/max now 19:34:56 :D 19:35:24 Deewiant, try this: http://rafb.net/p/OFwhCX47.html 19:35:32 unlike some of ccbi's it won't crash your browser 19:35:32 :P 19:35:49 (well rather ccbi locked up both firefox and konqueror) 19:35:59 so how does yours do on the quine now 19:36:35 Deewiant, haven't tested yet 19:36:41 there are still some other issues to fix 19:37:26 what's with all the style=foo 19:38:22 stroke-width:0.00005px; --> I can't see any of what those paths draw as my monitor only supports 1-pixel pixels :-P 19:38:35 Deewiant: hahahahahahah 19:38:45 dude we've all moved onto fractional pixels 19:38:48 you're BEHIND 19:38:52 (what about my behind?) 19:38:58 oh noes >_< 19:39:14 Deewiant, it is to prevent filling and such 19:39:26 fill:none;fill-opacity:0.75;fill-rule:evenodd; 19:39:29 Deewiant, ccbi's path are filled by default 19:39:36 it seems to me that the latter two are pointless 19:39:36 Deewiant, that was copied from inkscape 19:39:40 because it worked 19:39:51 don't copy from inkscape, read the standard 19:40:05 Deewiant, well that didn't do you any good 19:40:06 :P 19:40:19 sure it did 19:40:22 Deewiant, I can get ccbi to generate invalid xml 19:40:24 it doesn't do me any good any more, though 19:40:39 since I can't remember what I read and what I read of course influenced the code :-) 19:40:45 cool, how 19:41:05 Deewiant: surely you used a proper xml production library 19:41:07 AnMaster: you too 19:41:26 tusho, yes the libc one 19:41:32 fputs()/fprintf() 19:41:34 Deewiant, and a sec 19:41:41 AnMaster: do NOT produce xml that way 19:41:42 just don't 19:41:53 just truthfully, honestly, don't 19:41:59 Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/uavl3h33.html 19:42:11 tusho, why not? 19:42:13 it validates 19:42:20 AnMaster: don't 19:42:25 tusho, why not? 19:42:26 use genx in 19:42:26 tusho: if you're doing something that simple you can 19:42:27 c 19:42:31 tusho, why not? 19:42:34 Deewiant: genx is trivial 19:42:39 AnMaster: because you ARE getting it wrong 19:42:42 printf is even more trivial 19:42:42 it's not even conditional 19:42:48 tusho, is my file wrong? 19:42:48 noi 19:42:50 no* 19:42:52 it validates 19:42:53 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:42:58 AnMaster: no, but it is almost certainly trivial to make it produce an invalid file 19:43:02 "This Page Is Valid SVG 1.1!" 19:43:03 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:43:05 AnMaster: no, but it is almost certainly trivial to make it produce an invalid file 19:43:18 tusho, yes maybe for , that needs more debugging 19:43:20 well 19:43:31 AnMaster: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/genx/docs/Guide.html 19:43:32 however is written atomically 19:43:38 if you can make it produce an invalid file, chances are that if you were using an XML library you can make it produce a valid file with incorrect contents 19:43:42 fix your code now 19:43:45 tusho, is it one source file? 19:43:48 so an invalid file may even be better 19:43:49 AnMaster: i believe so 19:43:56 http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/genx/ 19:43:58 Deewiant, agree 19:43:58 yep 19:44:01 well, two 19:44:06 tusho, ok 19:44:08 one lib and one auxillary lib that it uses 19:44:18 tusho, GPL compatible? 19:44:19 and quite a lot of software uses it 19:44:27 AnMaster: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/genx/COPYING 19:44:29 so I can just drop the source file into cfunge 19:44:30 looks like mit 19:44:35 I'm NOT going to depend on it being installed 19:44:39 tusho: and I suppose if you don't call genxEndDocument() then it can catch the error and complain loudly? 19:44:53 Deewiant: if you don't call endDocument it won't output anything 19:44:55 :) 19:45:12 so it buffers everything in-memory until the whole thing is done? 19:45:14 tusho, is it debugged with valgrind? 19:45:17 AnMaster's going to love this ;-) 19:45:19 Deewiant, yes that seems horrible 19:45:27 that's what every DOM lib does 19:45:30 your browser does it, for instance 19:45:42 tusho, why though? 19:45:42 and I imagine it'll work fine with valgrind, AnMaster 19:45:47 so, we do not want a DOM lib. :-) 19:45:57 well 19:46:00 Deewiant, I agree with you 19:46:01 i'm not sure if it stores it in memory 19:46:04 still, just use it 19:46:09 it's trivial, fast, and memory-efficient 19:46:11 and tons of stuff uses it 19:46:19 and Tim Bray made it, I'm pretty sure he knows xml pretty well 19:46:21 :P 19:46:23 tusho, it is not even in portage or freebsd ports 19:46:34 AnMaster: because you should just drop it in to your app 19:46:54 AnMaster: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/genx/COPYING <-- is that GPL compatible or not? 19:47:01 AnMaster: it's the MIT license 19:47:06 aha 19:47:07 right 19:47:23 it was explicitly designed so you could just drop a few files into your app and use it, AnMaster 19:47:27 "Writing XML or declarations. Of course, you could squeeze these into the output stream yourself before any Genx calls that generate output." 19:47:29 thus the license & 3-fileness, etc 19:47:33 well I guess I have to do that then 19:47:40 AnMaster: well yes, that's just: 19:47:46 19:47:48 tusho, BUT CAN I BE TRUSTED WITH THAT!? 19:47:48 19:47:53 AnMaster: yes. yes you can. 19:47:56 I NEED A DOCTYPE LIBRARY! 19:47:58 ARGH! 19:48:02 it's when variable data comes in that the problem arouses 19:48:20 tusho, so can I print fixed point numbers with it? 19:48:27 I don't feel like creating buffers for them 19:48:34 AnMaster: i haven't used genx that extensively. 19:48:41 but I have seen many uses of it 19:49:00 viewbox=\"%s%d.%04u %s%d.%04u %s%d.%04u %s%d.%04u\" 19:49:01 :P 19:51:18 -!- pikhq has left (?). 20:00:38 I may use genx later 20:00:44 tusho, not today however 20:00:55 alright 20:00:58 maybe in the weekend 20:00:59 actually 20:01:05 the week after next 20:01:14 I will be away to Norway for parts of next week 20:12:24 -!- RedDak has joined. 20:24:39 when did ais leave? 20:24:57 ages ago :( 20:26:08 yes 20:26:11 the place he was at closed 20:26:43 how would you store the notes for a homophonic tune? 20:26:51 tusho, I thought it was open until midnight? 20:26:57 not that place, evidently 20:27:01 :( 20:27:09 lament, huh? 20:27:10 lament: a list of (len,pitch) tuples? 20:27:11 lament: homophonic? sounds suited to #esoteric 20:27:16 har har har 20:27:24 what is homophonic? 20:27:24 hahahahaaaa 20:27:48 I would store normal tunes as (len,pitch,data for how hard the string was hit) 20:27:51 as midi does it 20:28:07 what if there's a pause 20:28:14 lament, ok maybe: 20:28:27 and it makes it difficult to calculate the absolute position of notes 20:28:31 time,len,pitch,data for how the instrument was played) 20:28:40 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:28:49 lament, I would simply use midi 20:28:54 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:28:56 instead of reinventing the wheel 20:29:04 lament, doesn't that seem saner? 20:29:18 isn't midi overcomplicated and a bitch to parse 20:29:21 yes 20:29:24 maybe 20:29:28 I would use a library 20:29:33 like tusho told me to for xml 20:29:34 :P 20:29:42 are there good midi libs? 20:29:45 if not I might write one in C 20:29:48 and bind it to stuff 20:29:48 thankfully midi doesn't do what i need, anyway 20:29:49 no clue 20:29:53 lament, oh? 20:30:04 tusho, I never tried to use midi that way 20:30:07 AnMaster: it doesn't store anything about ties, slurs, stem direction, etc. 20:30:16 lament, hm 20:30:25 lament, ohhh I know 20:30:27 use xml! 20:30:28 :P 20:30:30 no don't 20:30:34 use S-Expressions 20:30:35 really 20:30:36 very funny 20:30:36 xml might actually be sane for this... 20:30:38 :\ 20:30:44 lament, S-Expressions 20:30:45 :P 20:30:49 i'm not asking how to serialize stuff 20:30:56 i'm asking how to represent it 20:31:02 lament: a C structure? 20:31:02 :p 20:31:05 serialization isn't important 20:31:39 lament, well you need absolute point in time of note,length + data for how hard the person hit the key on he piano or whatever 20:31:48 lament, or what do you mean? 20:32:18 just notes? then store it as (type of entry,position in current clef,other data) 20:32:24 or something like that 20:33:39 -!- Deformalite has joined. 20:33:43 Wooohoo, ackermann function works. 20:33:45 :) 20:33:56 This interpreter is coming along nicely. 20:36:14 oh my 20:36:18 Deformalite, running out of memory? 20:36:26 also what language 20:36:39 Uhm, I have not released specs yet. 20:36:44 Sorry. :( 20:36:54 No memory issues. 20:36:54 Deformalite, do that first! 20:37:16 Deformalite, well with ackermann's function that is easy to do 20:37:20 But I do sortof wish I would have compiled to some sort of intermediate code instead of interpreting. 20:37:59 Deformalite, well compile it to C 20:38:00 :) 20:38:17 Not really possible. 20:38:18 Too weird. 20:40:44 It would be much easier to compile to assembly. 20:40:51 Or llvm ir. 20:42:48 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:43:51 Deformalite, do LLVM then 20:43:58 Deformalite, I'm not on x86 so I hate x86 asm 20:44:00 :P 20:44:20 I am on powerpc most of the time. 20:44:29 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:44:32 Deformalite, well x86_64 here mostly 20:44:46 AnMaster: Even on x86, most people hate x86 assembly. 20:45:03 My opinion is "It gets the job *done*, sure, but it's fairly kludgy." 20:45:15 My opinion is "KITTENS" 20:45:27 tusho: Good opinion, if you like lolcats. 20:45:33 pikhq: No. 20:45:34 Just "KITTENS" 20:45:37 With the quotes and uppercase. 20:45:44 "KITTENS" 20:45:59 x86 isn't all bad. 20:46:13 At least it isn't Harvard architecture. 20:46:19 * Deformalite huggles self modifying code. 20:46:39 * pikhq huggles self-modifying code, as well 20:46:46 * tusho huggles "KITTENS" 20:47:15 Self modifying code is terribly interesting, and very esoteric. :) 20:47:29 * pikhq nods 20:47:38 You want interesting, though? 20:47:42 Self-modifying C code. 20:47:48 >:D 20:48:03 Eh, not very difficult to pull off. 20:48:11 True. 20:48:14 But diabolical. 20:48:58 You can make a function for each instruction or procedure, then just utilize higher order functions. 20:49:11 It is essentially just making a cheap interpreter. 20:51:21 I didn't say it was impossible. Merely that it is ridiculously diabolical. 20:51:40 Some IOCCC entries use it; what does that tell you? :p 20:52:17 pikhq: And all IOCCC entries use C. 20:52:19 ZOMG 20:52:24 C is esoteric and obfuscated! 20:52:28 ... wait, yeah, it is 20:52:47 I, of course, meant the 'self-modifying code' bit. 20:52:53 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:52:56 C actually isn't terribly obfuscated. 20:53:02 O RLY 20:53:04 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:53:13 It's not the *greatest* language, but it's got a few things in its favor. 20:53:20 First, it's a fairly simple language. 20:53:37 Second, it's good for systems programming. 20:53:43 Third, it is ubiquitous. 20:53:46 MY Z IS Z 20:53:52 ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzZ 20:54:15 It's that bit about being ubiquitous that makes it handy. 20:54:41 Well, makes it insanely handy. 20:57:02 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 20:57:03 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:58:22 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:58:31 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 21:00:25 * Deformalite huggles self modifying code. 21:00:26 NX bit 21:00:28 :P 21:01:53 tusho, why do you hate C? 21:01:59 i don't 21:02:05 you like it? 21:02:05 i love c 21:02:13 tusho, "but" what? 21:02:18 but nothing 21:02:40 but you don't consider it a clean language? 21:03:01 tusho, ? 21:03:10 define clean 21:03:34 "not obfuscated" 21:03:40 wrong definition 21:03:54 tusho, also you can write obfuscated python 21:03:56 i know very clean obfuscated languages 21:03:58 and vise versa 21:03:58 C is nice, D is nicer. 21:03:59 I have seen oklopol's code 21:03:59 :) 21:04:09 oklopol's python code is lovely 21:04:13 Deewiant, D is a pain to get working (compiler and such) 21:04:15 because it's fun 21:04:26 dsss makes it a bit easier. 21:04:28 it can be, yes 21:04:33 AnMaster: I have never had any problems. 21:04:40 oklopol doesn't piss around for days indenting crap and making it all go fast and modularized and stuff 21:04:42 suggestion: go to tango's web site and get the package they offer 21:04:42 AnMaster: OS? 21:04:42 Deformalite, I couldn't get tango to compile 21:04:44 he just writes something really awful 21:04:46 Deewiant, 64-bit Linux 21:04:47 but it's fun and works 21:04:49 x86_64 21:04:49 Don't use tango then. 21:05:00 AnMaster: x86_64 is a bitch with D. 21:05:01 Deformalite, well the app I needed to use used it 21:05:03 he needs tango because I use it. :-) 21:05:03 * Deformalite is one of the few anti-tango left. 21:05:06 Tango just doesn't build there. 21:05:08 pikhq, well that is a bug 21:05:16 Deformalite: phobos is a bug 21:05:23 a glitch 21:05:25 an error 21:05:31 Phobos is a standard. 21:05:36 pikhq, well I'm anti tango if it doesn't build on x86_64 21:05:45 Deformalite: Who gives a shit about a standard that 3 people use? 21:05:48 pikhq, once it works properly I may be interested 21:05:48 Phobos is much simpler. 21:05:53 No it's not. 21:05:54 It's more trivial. 21:05:58 And less well-designed. 21:06:07 Tango is a terribly ugly api IMO. 21:06:09 AnMaster: can't you just build it as 32-bit code 21:06:10 Very javaish. 21:06:16 Deformalite: Very javaish? 21:06:17 But that's enough of that. 21:06:20 We're using a different Tango here... 21:06:21 ideally in a 32-bit chroot 21:06:24 Deewiant, then I need a 32-bit chroot to get that working for gdc 21:06:29 I don't have any currently 21:06:32 * Deformalite gets back to his interpreter. 21:06:37 set one up :-P 21:06:38 I won't spend that time on it 21:06:44 I just won't 21:06:57 Deformalite: are you Deformative? 21:07:03 once it works on x86_64 and is in portage I may be interested 21:07:04 Indeed. 21:07:06 can't be that hard 21:07:07 all these d guys are scary 21:07:16 Deformalite == Deewiant? 21:07:26 doubtful 21:07:29 err i doubt that 21:07:32 ah 21:07:35 AnMaster: You do not need chroot to get gdc working... 21:07:35 yeah, i doubt that 21:07:47 * tusho plays with the idea of writing a RubyCocoa gmail client 21:07:48 Deformalite, I need it working with tango in x86_64 21:07:59 * Deformalite doesn't know about that. 21:08:02 until that is possible out of box I consider D non-mature 21:08:04 But I know phobos works fine.. 21:08:08 AnMaster: your fault for running a 64-bit OS without support for 32-bit ;-) 21:08:16 Deewiant, I do support 32-bit 21:08:17 AnMaster: s/d/tango 21:08:18 nothing odd 21:08:20 Uh. People. 21:08:25 Tango works fine on 64-bit afaik 21:08:31 hm 21:08:44 Yeah, I have never heard of such problems. 21:08:47 really? 21:08:48 http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/ticket/1097 21:08:50 http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/ticket/865 21:08:56 http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/ticket/1082 21:09:00 http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/ticket/1071 21:09:07 possibly others :-P 21:09:07 Never said without issues, Deewiant 21:09:13 But I'm pretty sure, with dsss, you can 'net install 21:09:16 ' tango pretty easily 21:09:21 "works fine" means "without issues" to me :-) 21:09:38 Then no software works fine my dear Deewiant. 21:09:49 * Deformalite is tired of tango discussion. Back to my work. :P 21:09:59 'echo' works fine so far 21:09:59 work work work 21:10:16 but yeah, depends on your definition of 'issue' 21:10:21 I consider segfaults an issue :-P 21:10:22 oklopol: Before I leave, yeah, I am Deformative, not Deewiant. 21:10:31 Deewiant: I bet gnu 'true' has bugs - have you ever read it? 21:10:33 It's crazily bloated 21:10:41 maybe it does 21:10:47 but it hasn't segfaulted on me yet 21:11:00 and it works upwards of 99% of the time 21:11:07 Deformalite: no one sane thought you might be Deewiant, i was just afraid you might be another De... guy 21:11:08 so it has no issues. :-) 21:11:25 who's that one guy that's here sometimes, Dewi or something? 21:11:28 'D' at the start of the name signifies a D user. 21:11:28 hrrm 21:11:32 Deformative and Deformalite in the same room would probably collapse into singularity 21:11:32 he's somebody else too 21:11:40 'De' means 'Deewiformative clan' 21:11:42 Heh. 21:11:42 Deewiant: Liar 21:11:45 Dewi is not Deewiant 21:11:47 err 21:11:50 s/not// 21:11:52 Dewi is so Deewiant 21:11:58 Deewiant, dewi is in this channel 21:12:00 Eh, if De is grouped together, I need to change my nick. 21:12:02 Dewi is a whole another guy 21:12:02 Erm. 21:12:08 Actually. 21:12:08 is he 21:12:08 wow 21:12:09 AnMaster: ah, good point 21:12:12 No it's all fine. 21:12:14 my tab completion missed him 21:12:14 austarlian 21:12:17 australian 21:12:21 austaralrarian 21:12:26 alright 21:12:30 Austarlia is right next to Canadia 21:12:31 this is the part where I go to bed. :-P 21:12:32 * AnMaster is now known as tusha 21:12:37 j/k 21:12:46 but first I'll leave some reading with you. 21:12:46 http://www.math.sfu.ca/~cbm/errh/101_analysis_bedtime_stories_(epsilon_red_riding_hood).pdf 21:12:49 * AnMaster is now known as oklolop 21:12:50 I wanna be called tasho so I can have t@sho.org 21:12:50 XD 21:12:55 and good night then \o 21:12:58 Deewiant: lmao 21:13:01 Deewiant, not yet 21:13:04 Deewiant, :/ 21:13:36 timezones make me go :/ 21:13:43 tusho, stay! 21:13:51 err what 21:14:08 don't leave! 21:14:13 I wasn't leaving 21:14:21 what did you mean then? 21:14:27 timezones make me go ':/' 21:14:30 you went 'not yet :/' 21:14:35 when, err 21:14:40 obviously it was night where Deewiant is 21:14:59 he is one hour later than me 21:15:02 tor jul 3 22:15:01 CEST 2008 21:15:32 22:15 is totally night, AnMaster 21:15:39 tusho, blergh 21:15:43 not until midnight :P 21:15:57 tusho, anyway it would be 23:* for him 21:18:26 What other helloworldies are there? Hello world, factorial, ackermann, and what else? I am going to do a turing machine soon, but if there are any others it would be nice to test before I go on to the turing machine. 21:19:56 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:20:02 Deformalite: cat 21:20:10 ?cat 21:20:15 ... 21:20:20 Deformalite: open a terminal 21:20:22 run 'cat' 21:20:34 That isn't a helloworld. 21:21:02 All that does is prove use of streams and file io. 21:21:19 http://www.math.sfu.ca/~cbm/errh/101_analysis_bedtime_stories_(epsilon_red_riding_hood).pdf <-- that was fun 21:21:23 I need something that tests language features a bit more, recursion/iteration and stuff. 21:22:22 Deewiant, write a brainfuck interpreter in it? 21:22:47 of course that is the turing test 21:23:30 Deformalite: Y combinator 21:26:32 does anyone have a transparent-background version of the gmail envelope? 21:27:15 nop 21:28:47 :( 21:36:57 tusho, ask google? 21:37:09 AnMaster: tried that 21:37:19 tusho, what did they say= 21:37:22 I mean email them... 21:37:33 not "google for it" 21:38:23 AnMaster: oh 21:38:29 they're a bigcorp and it's copyrighted 21:38:30 no chance 21:39:00 tusho, is it fair use? 21:39:06 it's for my personal use 21:39:09 but think about it 21:39:14 most of their emails probably go straight to /dev/null 21:39:16 they're huge 21:39:20 they'll get 1k+ emails every day 21:39:27 and here I am, asking them for a high-res version of their logo, just like that? 21:39:29 so not happening 21:39:33 hm 21:39:49 tusho, say you are from new york times or something :P 21:40:06 xD 21:55:26 anyone in a domain-buying mood? <.< 22:07:03 Bah, how could I forget quicksort. 22:07:07 ._. 22:53:28 -!- olsner has joined. 23:03:19 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:09:05 -!- Deformalite has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:16:23 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:30:46 RodgerTheGreat: God, Def-BF will kick ass. 23:35:25 will it 23:38:15 Moscoooooow 23:38:30 Enter the Hymen Store, two men are scorched and burned, kite me a sign. 23:38:34 Moscoooooow 23:39:02 Don't worry Bill is dead, there lies the toy opened, Indians are high. 23:40:59 What, GregorR 23:41:17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH8gtrD4_C4 23:41:59 hah 23:44:46 tusho: If you want your domain so badly, why don't you buy it? 23:45:48 GregorR: I already own ONE domain :'( 23:46:23 I own five, cry me a river. 23:46:33 GregorR: ok 23:46:34 :'''''''''''''''''( 23:46:37 :'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''( 23:46:39 :''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''( 23:46:44 :''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''( 23:46:46 :''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' 23:46:48 :''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' 23:46:54 :''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' 23:47:00 :''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' 23:48:02 (HALP!) 23:48:02 v 23:48:02 ~~~O/~~~~ 23:48:11 GregorR: Buy me a domain and I shall help! 23:49:16 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:51:53 tusho: If you already own ONE domain, what's one more? :P 23:52:11 GregorR: Money 23:52:34 -!- olsner has quit. 23:53:29 GregorR: How about. You buy a domain and I'll give you an account on rutian (the machine running eso-std.org) :-P 23:53:32 It is completely useless but fun! 23:53:41 You shall be dictated to by the two sudoers, me and ais523! 23:54:57 GregorR: AWSUM DEAL RITE 23:57:37 GregorR: No? :( 23:58:09 LIKE NO 23:58:14 GregorR: :(