00:00:17 oerjan: does it work for any thue program? 00:00:45 well _simultaneous_ substitutions 00:00:53 every letter to some word 00:01:24 :( 00:01:29 also, the atoms in Conway's numerical look-and-say can be handled this way too 00:01:46 to get frequencies and the "cosmological constant" 00:02:37 123456789 111213141516171819 31121113111411151116111711181119 00:02:40 such fun 00:04:18 er, "Conway's constant" 00:04:33 Conway's constant?!? 00:05:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look_and_say_sequence 00:05:35 22 22 22 22 22 22 22 00:05:49 LOL: 00:05:50 # No digits other than 1, 2, and 3 ever appear in the sequence, unless the seed number contains such a digit or a run of more than three of the same digit. 00:05:55 congrats einstein 00:06:13 that's the constant for the limit of growth, which is also the eigenvalue from the PF sequence 00:06:21 tusho: trivial? 00:06:22 s/sequence/theorem/ 00:06:28 oklopol: thoroughly 00:06:41 do prove it 00:06:46 no it is _not_ trivial 00:06:47 "This sequence is also referred to as containing Langford numbers." <-- are they like langford basilisks? :P 00:06:53 oerjan: ok, well it sounded it 00:07:06 i had to correct someone on the talk page for that once 00:07:21 well it is _nearly_ trivial, but not quite 00:07:27 tusho is even worse a trivializer than i am 00:07:37 nearly trivial 00:07:37 :D 00:07:55 the point is that you could imagine getting there after several iterations 00:07:56 whoa, it's the first section on the talk page 00:07:57 coooooooool 00:09:32 1111111111 101 111011 311021 1321101211 1113122110111221 00:09:34 look and say is fun 00:09:57 is 10 base carrying an official part of it btw? 00:10:35 shrug 00:10:36 oklopol: sort of. all bases >= 4 behave nearly identical after the first few steps 00:10:42 what about bases < 4? 00:11:02 they are somewhat different, i found 00:11:25 cooooooooooool 00:11:27 let's try it 00:11:30 you don't get digit 3 popping up 00:11:35 oh. 00:11:36 hah 00:11:38 xD 00:11:50 oerjan: unary look and say is boring 00:11:57 1 11 1111 11111111 00:12:02 heh 00:12:11 1 11 111 1111 actually 00:12:21 oklopol: er 00:12:22 really? 00:12:26 well 00:12:33 ah yes 00:12:39 because 11 is '11' 1s 00:12:41 isn't unary carry N -> 1(N-1)? 00:12:43 yeah 00:12:47 heh 00:12:48 cute 00:13:04 even more boring. yay! 00:13:08 :) 00:13:17 let's try base 3 00:13:25 1 11 21 1211 00:13:30 111221 00:13:37 well, really base 2 00:13:38 1012211 00:13:41 hmm 00:13:46 i _think_ Conway did all bases in the original paper but i haven't checked 00:13:53 1110112221 00:14:07 101102110211 00:14:22 111021101221101221 00:14:30 not that interesting, yeah. 00:14:37 base 2 might be 00:14:38 1 00:14:39 11 00:14:41 21 00:14:44 1211 00:14:44 heh 00:14:51 111221 00:14:51 tusho: forgot the unary carry. 00:15:01 wait 00:15:04 I was doing base 2 there 00:15:08 no 00:15:09 no i wasn't 00:15:10 agh 00:15:11 I'm stupid 00:15:14 1 00:15:15 11 00:15:17 101 00:15:21 111011 00:15:30 11110101 00:15:35 ah, right, zero 00:15:36 silly me 00:15:41 it's not the same as unary 00:15:43 100110111011 00:15:48 hmm 00:15:50 that's fractally 00:15:51 isn't it 00:16:02 if we consider '0's eyeballs, it kind of grows a new eyeball every now and then 00:16:08 :D 00:16:43 i expect the base 2 and 3 cases to have similar theorems as the >= 4 ones, just different 00:17:09 -!- edwardk has joined. 00:17:17 i don't recall if i thought it through all the way when pondering it 00:17:33 oerjan: what about odd bases 00:17:33 edwardk! 00:17:36 like base i and stuff 00:17:41 also, one more variation: you could say the digit _first_, then the number of digits 00:17:50 heya oklopol 00:17:50 tusho: you don't get any i's there 00:17:54 hmm 00:17:59 base -2i 00:18:09 haven't wandered over this way in a while, thought I'd swing by =) 00:18:19 tusho: you could of course generalize completely and code each length as an arbitrary word 00:18:28 oerjan: that's only different if you have carry 00:18:54 edwardk: hi there 00:18:58 edwardk: what's the news on your uncomputable superlanguage? 00:19:06 i mean an arbitrary function from lengths to strings 00:19:13 did you add another construct only oerjan can understand? 00:20:11 oerjan: i still like the idea of a base -2i look and say 00:20:12 :D 00:20:12 hi edwardk 00:20:12 zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz 00:20:23 tusho: go ahead :) 00:20:29 oklopol: heh, well, hrmm. i don't remember if we talked about nuel or kata 00:20:38 if it was nuel i shelved it pretty much completely 00:20:41 oerjan: i don't know base -2i 00:20:42 unfortunately 00:20:55 if it was kata i'm hacking away quite furiously ;) 00:21:23 oklopol: kata = nuel without types, but i temporarily cut the theorem proving bits while i work on the main language 00:21:56 otoh, i still get some of the benefits because i can check a lot of the pattern matching at compile time 00:22:12 i vaguely recall thinking something like, if the strings representing lengths don't grow more than logarithmically (as -2i also wouldn't) then there will be a bound on what digits eventually appear 00:22:22 oklopol: and yeah there are plenty of oerjanly constructs in it ;) 00:22:49 edwardk: is it oklo though 00:22:53 and is it eso 00:22:55 and is it o and oko 00:22:58 if not, oklopol doesn't want to know 00:23:04 especially if it's easy to use 00:23:39 heh, well it does have a built-in sugar for working with comonads, and you have to do IO using the codensity monad of a free monad of IO actions, so its definitely esoteric ;) 00:23:43 (and by 'oklopol' we are referring to the collective pronoun of 'the disciples of the oko religion') 00:23:56 oklopol: here, let's demonstrate our faith to the oko 00:23:57 o 00:24:06 edwardk: sounds like fun. 00:24:11 hmph 00:24:12 o 00:24:45 but i'm afraid i still lack some crucial theory when it comes to category theory. 00:24:50 err 00:24:57 oklopol: IT'S OKO TOWER TIME DAMNIT 00:24:58 o 00:24:59 knowledge 00:25:01 o 00:25:04 okokokoko 00:25:06 okokokokoko 00:25:08 okokokoko 00:25:10 o 00:25:11 oklopol: heh i've blogged a ton of category theory bits on the topic over the last few months 00:25:14 that was a lame tower 00:25:22 tusho: i guess 00:25:24 okokokokoko 00:25:25 okokokoko 00:25:26 okokoko 00:25:26 okoko 00:25:27 oko 00:25:27 o 00:25:32 vista failed it, not me 00:25:33 let's do it properly 00:25:33 o 00:25:57 (i know i was gonna switch to linux, but you know, i'm lazy.) 00:26:07 oko 00:26:17 * oerjan wonders how oklofok and oklokok differ from oklopol, grammatically 00:26:30 oerjan: what do you mean? 00:26:32 they are obviously closely related 00:26:53 oklopol: in the context of (and by 'oklopol' we are referring to the collective pronoun of 'the disciples of the oko religion') 00:27:01 they're obvciously lmlads 00:27:23 oerjan: ah, oklofok refers to the innate oko _nature_ all oklopol have within us 00:27:35 that is, it still refers to the disciples, but shifted to refer to the innate oko nature of them 00:27:39 (which is themself) 00:27:59 oklokok is the same, but with the string of anti-oko instead of the innate oko nature 00:28:04 (of course, oko is defined by the string of anti-oko) 00:28:52 * tusho scared off edwardk 00:29:05 are you prejudiced against our religion edwardk?!~?~?~?~?~?!~!@ 00:29:05 ah it all makes sense now. if i don't think too hard, anyway. 00:29:18 not scared off 00:29:43 i'm sure he was a little scared on by that, rather 00:29:47 was sitting here trying to figure out how to merge a couple of ways to thinking about coroutines and if i'd get any benefit out of thw windows fiber api 00:29:49 * oerjan didn't know about the anti-oko before 00:29:50 ack 00:29:51 gtg tusho 00:29:53 oerjan: it's kind of like zen except we mock zen for being stupid 00:29:54 ::bite:: 00:29:58 ill be back in an hour 00:30:02 uh, bye? :p 00:30:04 dont worry, im close to being finished :p 00:31:00 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:31:02 windows has fibers? it appears to be more advanced than i previously had been aware 00:31:27 oerjan: yeah actually they've got arguably a better fiber api than the posix makecontext/swapcontext crap 00:31:57 its not all that complicated to use either, sql server runs on top of it 00:32:19 * oerjan of course is assuming fiber has the usual mathematical meaning, since he doesn't even know the compsci one. just so you're warned. 00:32:26 hahahaha 00:32:44 a fiber is a lightweight cooperative thread 00:32:52 ah 00:32:56 you swap fibers cooperatively, its like switching stacks 00:32:59 and registers 00:34:28 basically since kata is pretty much designed to be more or less bare metal speed where it can for a language with so little type info, permitting fibers and async io as a useful default practice would drive the right behavior in the APIs 00:34:54 most languages just kinda throw a thin veneer over the basic blocking posix crap and call it a day 00:35:21 er designed to be as close to bare metal speed 00:36:47 basically trying to figure out how to hand around fibers in a type-safe manner at the moment or if i shouldn't bother to add them to my cognitive overhead 00:37:22 one can argue that they add no value if the rest of your language is designed right 00:38:27 edwardk: We like kittens. 00:38:44 I do too =) 00:39:28 no! evil subversive monster felines! 00:40:10 oklopol: http://comonad.com/reader/2008/kan-extensions/ explains the codensity stuff i mentioned earlier, but if you don't do haskell it might cause your brain to segfault 00:43:35 i don't do haskell, i just know some of it. 00:43:51 for an example of their evil, see from the bottom of http://www.webcomicsnation.com/shaenongarrity/narbonic/series.php?view=archive&chapter=9816 00:48:38 oerjan: I liked tha 00:48:39 t 00:50:37 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:05:08 -!- tusho has quit. 01:34:30 -!- Slereah has joined. 01:34:38 -!- ihope has joined. 01:36:33 cctoide : Frieeend? 01:36:37 back 01:36:44 tusho: its hard to see the fractals :( 02:03:23 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:04:44 -!- Slereah has joined. 02:18:47 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:18:50 -!- Slereah has joined. 02:29:59 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 02:30:44 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:04:35 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 04:50:07 Man it's hard to find a good version of Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye. 04:50:19 Either it's sung mediocrely, or it's incomplete. 04:50:41 I found one that almost was perfect, but the last verse is missing. 04:51:35 -!- pikhq has quit ("Sleep is t3h good"). 05:19:22 dude omg 05:19:25 doctor who 05:19:25 omg 05:19:28 omg omg omg 05:31:49 As sung by the Who? :o 06:00:11 yes 06:00:19 OH DOCTOR WHOOOOOO ARE YOU 06:00:31 *rimshot* 07:05:37 lalala 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:42:31 -!- GregorR has joined. 08:42:45 GREGOR ALIVE 08:48:30 hey gregor. 08:49:10 Well, better than Gregor Dead, I suppose. 08:49:18 MUMMIES ALIVE 08:59:25 night guys 09:33:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 09:34:32 hello, my new version (0.1.0) is finished :-) it produces smaller BF code http://paste.pocoo.org/show/78109/ 10:07:11 hey man that's python 10:08:15 "Hello World" is saved as "[H][E][L][O][W][R][D]" what? 10:08:58 like, nub(...)? 10:09:03 i don't get it 10:12:56 oklopol whats wrong ? 10:14:18 well i have no idea what you meant by that 10:15:08 you can type "hello world" or you can type H = 1 e = 2 l = 3 o = 4 --> 12334 --> hello 10:17:08 the produced code is smaller 10:20:44 okay, what's the algo, i can't really get that just by reading. 10:21:31 first of all, it's a function from texts to brainfuck codes that output that text? 10:21:47 yes 10:22:32 text(ascii/unicode/binary) -> BF -> text 10:23:39 i calculate the BF equivalent of the character an save it in my dictionary 10:24:05 and you just stack those one after another in a string? 10:24:24 if the character in the dictionary: goto position else: save it on the end of the dictionary 10:24:53 so if that char is output twice, it rewinds to last use? 10:25:01 with <<'s or something 10:25:09 yes you have it 10:25:25 "hel" < "o" = "hello" 10:25:27 so it nubs the whole string on the tape 10:26:16 yes on the tape i have [H][E][L][O][W][R][D] and i use the ">", "<" to print the rest 10:26:23 okay, that was how i assumed it worked 10:26:33 now, that's very inefficient 10:27:59 what you want to do is create as little "base characters" as possible, and when printing char X, navigate to closest char in ascii value, make it X, and output 10:29:20 thats a good idea 10:35:52 heheh my next version produce smaller code than this version :) 10:44:00 hhee 25,3 KB text -> 345,7 KB Brainfuck code :P 10:44:24 very inefficient 10:49:10 -!- Corun has joined. 10:50:46 i should make a bf generation program 10:50:49 in fact 10:50:51 i will, now. 10:50:59 KingOfKarlsruhe: let's compete 10:51:02 mwahaha 10:51:29 oklopol: heheh cool :) 11:10:08 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:11:00 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 11:15:52 bfbots, anyone? 11:15:54 ++++++++++[->+++>++++>+++++++>++++++++++<<<<]++.+.+++++++..+++.++++.++.++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.+. 11:15:58 is this hw 11:25:46 +++++++++++++++[->++>+++>+++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<<]---.----.+++++++..+++.-.++.-..+++.------.--------.+. 11:25:53 oh, actually 11:26:04 i could just have read it and realized i don't have the <>'s 11:26:58 +++++++++++++++[->++>+++>+++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<<]<<<---.<----.+++++++..+++.>>-.>++.<<<<-.>.+++.------.--------.>>>+. 11:27:08 ridiculously long 11:27:23 but wonder if it works 11:27:28 perhaps i have to write a bf 11:29:14 oklopol: you need a bf-interpreter ? 11:34:47 well i made it 11:34:50 -!- timotiis has joined. 11:34:51 so not anymore 11:34:55 anyway, it works now 11:35:01 +++++++++++++++[->++>+++>+++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<<]>>>---.>----.+++++++..+++.<<-.<++.>>>>-.<.+++.------.--------.<<<+. 11:35:04 hello world 11:35:05 :< 11:35:09 long as hell 11:35:32 can someone run egobot or something? 11:36:29 +++++++++++++++++[->+>++>++++>++++++>+++++++<<<<<]>>>++++.>-.+++++++..+++.<<--.>>>.<.+++.------.--------.<<+.<-------. is "Hello world!" 11:36:38 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.- 11:36:47 in wp 11:37:24 perhaps i'll try adding some heuristic 11:40:41 actually, nm, don't really feel like it 11:40:43 too harddd 11:41:21 KingOfKarlsruhe: can i see some of your results so i can try to beat your original naive one? 11:43:16 oklopol: ok 11:43:31 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p433226444.txt 11:44:09 there's the a trivial heuristic of not letting base values grow too near each other. 11:44:15 but i didn't even make that one 11:47:38 http://paste.pocoo.org/show/78116/ 11:48:18 your code works correctly 11:48:33 That's brainfuck in mine: +++++++++++++++++[->++>++++>+++++>++++++>+++++++<<<<<]>>>-.>++.-------.>---.<<<<+++++.>>>>-.<<<<-------.>--.>>>-.<.++++++++.+++++.--------.>+++.<---.++++++++. 11:48:38 output : Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia 11:48:38 deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. 11:48:48 yeah, i tried 11:48:55 well i tried the hw 11:49:49 oklopol: Oo thats very cool ^^ its smaller and better 11:50:20 yeah who's the king now! 11:50:46 you are the KingOfBF :) 11:51:09 you coded this in that little time ? 11:51:35 well yeah 11:51:58 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p122223663.txt 11:52:37 you calculate from all letters the middle-value and then you add ' - ' or '+' 11:52:55 thats python O_O 11:53:03 middle-value? average you mean? 11:53:25 yes ^^ 11:53:29 well, tusho calls okopython, i write it a bit differently from others 11:54:06 in german it is middle-value the literal interpretation 11:55:05 in finnish too 11:55:13 i feel so bad ^^ i worked 3 days on my solution and your code is smaller and better wahhhh 11:55:36 how old are ya? 11:55:40 20 11:55:56 on this channel, the older you are, the more you get owned, it seems 11:56:25 but really i've coded so much python i don't really have to give it any thought 11:56:27 the algorythm is the special point 11:56:54 i don't really decide on an algo, i just open a text file and wait for about an hour for the code to be ready 11:57:05 it's python that does all the work 11:57:55 i'm a bit of a python-enthusiast 11:58:37 oklopol: i am new on coding ... my first code was at December 07 11:59:09 KingOfKarlsruhe: anyway, i separated basemultiplier + basenumbers -> code, and then just iterated through possible basemultipliers and found the heuristically best list of basenumbers 11:59:19 and checked what produces the shortest code 11:59:43 that algo is wonderful ^^ 12:00:16 well it's been used before, i didn't really invent it 12:00:29 although i'm 90% sure i'd've invented it if i hadn't seen it 12:01:57 algorithm is the correct form btw 12:03:42 but with my way to create the actual output from the base list, i don't get the results of wikipedia even with the base list they use 12:03:45 you have a char like "C" then you so ord() so you habe the char-value... then you have 67 and do 67 * '+'.. then you divide it for the best factors 12:03:50 not nearly the same 12:04:04 o i don't factor anything 12:04:11 basically 12:04:19 to get the base number for a certain base number 12:04:21 errrr 12:04:25 oh ok you do this like 2 ^^ 3 12:04:27 to get the base numbers for a certain base multiplier 12:04:31 o no. 12:04:32 wait a sec 12:04:41 def findc(s,b): 12:04:44 c=set([]) 12:04:47 for i in s: 12:04:50 c.add(int(round(float(ord(i))/b))) 12:04:53 return sorted(c) 12:04:54 this finds the base numbers 12:05:02 nnscript fucks up the indentation 12:05:09 but it should be clear 12:05:42 amazing.. so small code 12:05:47 that just does 12:05:48 like 12:05:51 for hello world 12:06:09 [72, 101, 108, 108, 111, 44, 32, 119, 111, 114, 108, 100, 33] 12:06:16 this is the map(ord,...) for it 12:06:17 so 12:06:46 it would create the sorted set set([30,40,70,100]) 12:06:54 set([30,40,70,100,110]), actually 12:06:59 if base was 10 12:07:14 for base 100, it would create set([0,100]) 12:08:10 i must realize what that code do... 12:08:12 for base 17, there'd be 34 for the value 33, and 51 for 44, etx 12:08:14 *etc 12:09:16 for each character in the string to be generated, it takes the closest integer multiple of the basemultiplier 12:09:22 that's really t. 12:09:23 *it 12:10:39 so sorted(set([int(round(float(i)/base)) for i in s])) 12:10:47 if you want it shorter 12:11:07 base is the base multiplier 12:11:36 also it generates the list of numbers before multiplying with the base number, not the actual multiplied numbers 12:11:43 and from where you know what the base multi is ? 12:11:53 i try all base multipliers 12:12:00 and check which produces shortest code 12:12:11 return least(len,[txt2bf_(s,b,findc(s,b)) for b in xrange(3,40)])[1] 12:12:18 the xrange is the base numbers i try 12:12:23 oklopol your geniality is awesome 12:12:52 :D 12:12:59 thanks, i guess! 12:13:55 anyway, i'd prolly have done all this genetically, but as EgoBot already has such a bfgen, i couldnt 12:13:56 couldn't 12:14:27 i usually go for genetics, and let things sort themselves out 12:15:49 oh btw, don't use the bf, it doesn't actually work for anything but this 12:16:20 didn't wanna type the 50 more characters, too much work-o 12:19:49 this code i much higher than my brain... i learn very much from your solution.. thanks 12:20:08 hey, i couldn't read yours either :P 12:20:34 i need declarative explanations for functions 12:20:37 to get code 12:20:39 usually 12:23:38 if i understand your code, i do a rewrite of it ^^ 12:24:37 ok have a nice day, and your're awesome !!! bye 12:25:09 oh 12:25:10 bye 12:25:28 weird leavers 12:29:41 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:30:48 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:38:22 oklopol, genetic programming 13:38:25 how do you do that 13:38:38 it seems useful 13:39:11 guess a few, take the best, guess a few close to the good ones, iterate 13:40:05 oklopol, do you use some automated software to do this? 13:40:35 what do you mean? 13:40:48 iirc there are frameworks for genetic programmin 13:40:50 well whatever you mean, i use python 13:40:58 well sure, but i usually write the 5 lines myself 13:41:06 aha 13:41:09 takes less time 13:41:19 also why don't you like C? 13:41:38 it doesn't have sets without importing a module, that's an instantsetback 13:41:50 *instant setback, although still a weird word choice 13:41:58 um? 13:42:04 you mean like array? 13:42:08 it doesn't have lists at all, that really renders it completely useless for fun programming 13:42:12 no i mean sets 13:42:31 anyway you got hashes by libraries 13:43:09 what hashes? 13:43:15 hash arrays 13:43:17 .. 13:43:23 sparse arrays if you want 13:43:34 i assumed you meant a hash value 13:43:37 but yeah 13:43:43 sure you do get those from libs 13:43:49 also you can write faster programs in C than in any interpreted language 13:43:54 oklopol, from the INTARNET ;P 13:44:13 i don't like downloading libs 13:44:23 anyway, i have time to wait for my slow programs to finish 13:44:39 doesn't really matter to me whether it's a microsecond or a millisecond 13:44:51 oklopol, when python can be compiled to native machine code I may change opinion 13:44:56 i'm a human, you see 13:45:10 i simply can't tell the difference 13:45:13 oklopol, the day python can be used to write a kernel... 13:55:19 kernels aren't all that interesting 13:56:04 anyway, i've done tons of C/C++ 13:56:33 but nowadays i just prefer to do my daily coding in non-esolangs 13:58:48 and before you can answer my malicious joke 13:58:50 * oklopol leaves 13:58:52 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 14:00:04 -!- Corun has joined. 14:18:04 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:52:47 -!- ihope has joined. 14:58:17 -!- Corun has joined. 15:17:10 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:23:20 -!- ihope has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.14/2008040413]"). 15:46:16 Heh. I think I saw sum phishing :D 16:00:54 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:02:37 -!- oklopol has joined. 16:15:06 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:15:34 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:55:17 -!- edwardk has left (?). 17:00:55 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 17:06:03 -!- Corun has joined. 17:25:59 hey oklopol, i understand now your script :) 17:39:17 -!- tusho has joined. 17:39:42 hi ais523 17:42:36 03:55:56 on this channel, the older you are, the more you get owned, it seems 17:42:36 *g* 17:43:14 -!- timotiis has joined. 17:43:32 KingOfKarlsruhe: and yeah, oklopol's code often does tons of crazy stuff in a tiny amount of space 17:43:59 i mean, the last function there is even a BF interpreter 17:44:04 although it only handles one set of nested brackets 17:44:07 so it's not turing complete 17:45:25 05:45:13 oklopol, the day python can be used to write a kernel... 17:45:30 is the day when you can use python to write a kernel 17:45:31 nothing more 17:48:39 is the day I will use python maybe 17:48:56 tusho: oklopol geniality is aweosome ! i need 3 hours to understand _what_ this code do 17:49:17 btw anyone know a good non-intrusive cd player for linux? console 17:49:21 no X dependency 17:49:45 AnMaster: why does every language have to be able to be usable for kernel writing to use it? 17:49:48 I can't do the normal for file in *.ogg; do ogg123 "$file"; done 17:49:56 tusho, because I'm insane ;P 17:50:00 AnMaster: mp3blaster ? 17:50:01 why does that matter if you're not writing a kernel? 17:50:08 tusho, because I'm insane ;P 17:50:13 or mad? 17:50:18 AnMaster: bash can't write a kernel 17:50:26 tusho, sad but true 17:50:33 *g 17:50:33 * AnMaster ponders making a bash -> C compiler 17:50:48 KingOfKarlsruhe, hm can it play CDs? 17:50:52 because that is what I need 17:51:02 AnMaster: what do you think of my blog design http://xs128.xs.to/xs128/08266/picture5214.png 17:51:11 (warning: picture is drunk on design simplicity) 17:51:17 (and meaningless filler text) 17:51:19 tusho, very nice and clean 17:51:25 thanks 17:51:25 :) 17:51:37 AnMaster: i don't know .. try it :) 17:51:37 i like the text 17:51:40 makes ya think 17:51:43 oklopol: yeah 17:51:44 it's deep 17:51:48 tusho, maybe a small title (

) at the top? 17:52:07 KingOfKarlsruhe: congrats if you get it, not many have even tried to read my code. 17:52:27 AnMaster: considered it, not sure if it's really necessary though, the little introductory paragraph is pretty simple and explicit 17:52:31 plus what would I put there? 17:52:35

tusho.org

? 17:52:38 because that's self-evident 17:52:45 tusho, oh if you got no better name... 17:52:59 well, i'd like to call it copenhagen because that's a nice name 17:53:03 but copenhagen.org is obviously taken 17:53:04 haha 17:53:26 and points to a site much uglier than mine may I add 17:55:22 AnMaster: i wish I could control the spacing of sentences through css 17:55:27 i'd like to make the space a bit wider 17:55:35 and I certainly don't want to do    that's just hideous 17:55:43 alas, that would be css meddling with i18n 17:55:45 to define 'sentence' 17:55:47 so it won't happen 17:56:05 tusho, if you want typesetting try LaTeX 17:56:13 also sure you can't do it in CSS? 17:56:18 very sure, yes 17:56:18 I got no idea 17:56:24 it isn't much of a problem though 17:56:33 since I'm used to reading sentences seperated by one space 17:56:47 (certainly, two spaces is just as silly as one. It's not about how many spaces there are, it's about the actual spacing.) 18:00:29 AnMaster: http://xs128.xs.to/xs128/08260/picture6487.png here's what it looks like without css 18:00:38 (note, I added the '3.0' to the license and removed subtitles just now, so that's not due to css being off) 18:00:55 tusho, why are the titles links? 18:01:01 AnMaster: links to the entries 18:01:05 that bit look a bit uggly, but apart from that: nice 18:01:19 it's quite common to click on a title to get to a post page 18:01:28 of course, the blueness isn't that appealing, so it's styled away 18:01:34 i think wordpress was the first one to link the titles 18:01:37 but it's quite common now 18:01:41 and anyway I click titles all the time 18:02:03 oh, and it rocks in lynx/elinks/w3m 18:26:28 KingOfKarlsruhe, yay cplay can do it 18:31:33 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 18:34:01 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:39:26 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:42:07 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:14:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:24:17 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:36:23 -!- Corun has joined. 19:43:21 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:43:39 -!- augur has joined. 19:45:18 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:52:14 hello! :D 19:53:33 hello 19:54:19 ooooooooo 19:56:05 heyo. hows it goin? :D 19:56:40 omg tusho did you see doctor who last night?! 19:56:52 no 19:56:52 :| 19:57:02 why not?! 19:57:05 i'm lazy 19:57:17 what? 19:57:24 watching television is the most lazy thing you can do 19:57:38 no 19:57:39 coding is 19:57:40 duh 19:57:40 :P 19:57:48 coding requires that you type 19:57:49 and think 19:58:03 omg dude 19:58:07 holy fucking shit it was crazy 19:58:08 type? think? 19:58:09 CRAZY 19:58:15 wow, I just kind of transfer my glob into the text file 19:58:17 :\ 19:58:35 i'd transfer your glob if you know what i mean 19:58:41 wayy hey hey 19:58:42 ;D 19:58:43 :P 19:59:28 (read that in the voice of ainsley harriot) 19:59:38 lawl 19:59:44 fags 19:59:58 lament, did YOU watch doctor who? 20:00:27 no. 20:00:44 lame. 20:01:05 you can't spell "lament" without "lame" 20:01:05 ;D 20:01:22 BOTH OF YOU GO WATCH IT RIGHT NOW 20:01:26 no 20:01:26 you too oklopol. 20:01:27 fuck you. 20:01:30 :) 20:01:34 promise? 20:13:15 augur, in what country? 20:13:29 there is no doctor who on any of the tv channels I got here in Sweden 20:13:35 augur, so tell me about it 20:14:08 surfthechannel.com 20:14:12 its all the TV i need :P 20:16:21 no flash needed? 20:16:51 AnMaster: tell me a good way to distribute streamed video content that works cross-browser and cross-platform 20:16:52 that isn't flash 20:16:55 i'll wait 20:17:12 tusho, can't you stream ogg-theora? 20:17:13 vlash very needed 20:17:24 augur, forget it then 20:17:24 AnMaster: cross-browser and cross-platform 20:17:25 flash* 20:17:33 and something that people actually have installed 20:17:33 tusho, well browser? why? 20:17:40 tusho, mplayer! 20:17:42 AnMaster: because they can't allow downloads easily 20:17:43 vlc! 20:17:44 xine! 20:17:46 they have to go through barriers 20:17:51 to stay legal (if that site even is legal) 20:17:54 (if it's not, then meh) 20:17:58 (a web interface is convenient) 20:18:03 tusho, I can save a stream 20:18:06 even from flash 20:18:09 yes 20:18:16 but legality requires putting up Big Pointless Barriers 20:18:20 law sucks 20:18:42 big? 20:19:16 big as in tedious 20:20:00 for youtube is is dead easy 20:20:07 youtube-dl url 20:20:11 emerge it! 20:20:15 if you are on gentoo 20:20:16 otherwise 20:20:27 http://www.arrakis.es/~rggi3/youtube-dl/ 20:20:55 arrakis is in estonia? 20:21:00 I NEVER KNEW! 20:21:03 augur, no clue 20:21:04 AnMaster: that's not the point 20:21:06 who is arrakis? 20:21:09 augur, ? 20:21:23 legal content distributors, by law, are mostly only allowed to be legal by the bigcorps if they put up some barriers to download 20:21:23 arrakis is a planet 20:21:26 augur, I just checked the homepage url of the ebuild 20:21:30 augur, it is? 20:21:32 so that Average Joe or Slightly More Than Average Joe can't download them 20:21:35 way to show your scifi ignorane 20:21:38 ignorance* 20:21:55 augur, star trek? star wars? 20:22:05 DUNE. 20:22:10 BE GONE. 20:22:10 augur, ah no clue then 20:22:18 I do know what dune is 20:22:21 but I never read that 20:22:28 neither have i 20:22:31 BUT I STILL KNOW WHAT ARRAKIS IS 20:22:40 because im not LAME like YOU 20:22:47 you should read it, it's good 20:24:22 Deewiant, hi 20:24:34 hi deewiant, you're yellow 20:24:35 i know this 20:24:40 Deewiant, is TURT hard to implement? 20:24:52 not really 20:25:01 your code seems rather complex 20:25:05 you might have to think about it a bit though 20:25:09 oh? 20:25:11 why? 20:25:15 it might be overcomplex 20:25:19 hah 20:25:24 can't remember 20:25:51 but yeah, because there's the thing about when to draw and when not to 20:26:05 oh? 20:26:12 can't remember all the commands but I remember getting something wrong a few times :-P 20:26:17 Deewiant, does mycology test it well or? 20:26:34 not really, I don't think 20:26:43 well what does test it well then? 20:26:50 nothing I know of 20:27:02 Deewiant, you got to have wrote your own test programs? 20:27:04 haven't run into any TURT programs :-P 20:27:08 no, only mycology 20:27:20 Deewiant, well how do you know you got them wrong then? 20:27:24 trust me, it was hard enough to finish that ;-) 20:27:43 I can reason about programs without having to run them :-P 20:27:47 hm 20:27:56 Deewiant, well what about that TURT quine? 20:28:06 made by !Befunge author 20:28:17 "mad domain name" 20:28:20 news to me, or I've forgotten it 20:28:33 http://www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info/befunge/tquine.php 20:28:47 thanks 20:28:51 p.s. 20:28:54 that domain is available at http://www.phlamethrower.co.uk/ 20:29:12 and the thing with befunge programs on the net is that you have to read them through and think about it to know whether it's correct, you can't trust implementations :-P 20:29:19 well 20:29:19 phlamethrower hehe 20:29:20 almost the same 20:29:22 {# Wondering what the deal is with the domain name? Head over to my befunge pages to find out.} 20:29:28 Deewiant, true! 20:29:32 is on the crazy one 20:29:32 on the main page 20:29:41 and 'Out of cheese?', linking to phlamethrower on the crzy one, 20:29:47 changes to 'Got egnufeB?' 20:29:49 linking to the crazy one 20:29:58 yes 20:30:05 tusho, why "out of cheese" though 20:30:09 doesn't make sense to em 20:30:10 me* 20:30:12 shrug 20:30:17 who cares 20:30:25 well me obviously 20:30:27 :P 20:30:32 tell me about it 20:30:58 I don't know 20:34:07 cool, my stylesheet fits in ten lines 20:34:56 you ran it through CSSTidy? :-P 20:35:32 ah no, that puts everything on one line 20:37:23 Deewiant: well, a tidier 20:37:26 but it's still pretty readable 20:37:32 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1058380 20:38:37 Deewiant: i'd organize it a bit different 20:38:40 actually I think CSSTidy is fairly configurable, that's just max compression 20:38:40 but that's pretty nice 20:39:16 and well, that can't be compressed any more without removing a few spaces and line breaks :-) 20:39:40 Deewiant: yes, I was commenting rather on its simplicity 20:39:47 as it's still readable like that 20:40:43 CSS is fairly readable 20:55:24 * SimonRC reads the /topic 20:55:27 syntax error 21:00:07 also, oerjan made me start reading another webcomic, damn him 21:04:27 -!- tusho has set topic: THISTOPICISNOTCYCLICTHISTOPICISNOTCYCLICTHISTOPICISNOTCYCLICTHISTOPICISNOTCYCLICDONOTREADTHESIGNONTHEBUSTHISTOPICISNOTCYCLICTHISTOPICISNOTCYCLIC. 21:05:21 -!- SimonRC has set topic: NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP. 21:05:36 in honour of an old ELER strip 21:05:41 -!- tusho has set topic: overflowdisabledreadaboutitsothatitwillbeacyclicloop. 21:05:47 SimonRC: ha, i thought of that strip 21:05:51 then i was like 'nahh.. nobody reads eler' 21:06:11 lord, it still hasn't been updated 21:06:31 also, I found the world's best communication protocol: the port jump 21:06:59 read word from memory-mapped port; don't increment IP, execute, repeat 21:08:35 SEAforth chips have this capability 21:10:19 -!- eduardopl has joined. 21:11:18 -!- timotiis has joined. 21:12:34 SimonRC: cool 21:12:39 but isn't that a bit insecure 21:13:01 these are on-chip ports 21:13:11 o 21:13:11 :p 21:13:20 you may as well worry about your RAM comspiring against your processor 21:13:25 i do 21:13:27 i have nightmares about it 21:19:27 even better, the code for "n times: [ read port, write port ]" fits in one instruction word 21:19:48 SimonRC: kigforth goes how 21:20:44 tusho: haven't touched it for months 21:21:12 (... such techniques are used to initially load the programs into the 24 processors) 21:21:17 SimonRC: you should 21:21:17 :) 21:27:54 whoa, that chip I was talking about... 21:28:09 all 24 processors fit into an 8*8mm chip 21:28:19 shit 21:29:08 Alas they have so little memory 21:30:20 SimonRC: i wonder what a decent functional-ly forth with some oop stuff would look like 21:30:24 either lovely or horrible i guess 21:30:52 now about factor 21:31:05 they have irc on this net at #concatenative 21:31:20 *How about Factor? 21:31:21 i know about factor 21:31:25 but it's kind of not what I was thinking of 21:31:26 :\ 21:31:53 joy? 21:32:29 Forth tries to be close to the machine and powerful rather than abstract and powerful. 21:33:14 yes 21:33:20 i'm thinking kind of like forth blended with joy 21:33:26 with an angle neither have - 21:33:33 _practical_ abstractions 21:33:39 e.g. some elements of oop 21:36:01 * tusho writes an example of some sort 21:40:37 SimonRC: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1058441 21:40:47 the interesting thing there is that it's basically as syntaxless as forth. {...} is a lambda 21:41:15 tusho, what language is that? 21:41:18 looks very simple 21:41:20 and nice 21:41:23 AnMaster: just invented it 21:41:27 thanks :) 21:41:39 tusho, don't get the : double ... line though 21:41:46 AnMaster: function definition 21:42:04 it's a concatenative (aka stack based) languages 21:42:06 *language 21:42:07 tusho, what does that function do? 21:42:10 so { 2 * } doubles 21:42:14 oh I see 21:42:25 why the starting :? 21:42:27 it is remarkably readable for a concatenative language though :-P 21:42:35 tusho, yes I agree 21:42:35 AnMaster: that's the definer. 21:42:47 : name { body } 21:42:48 I would call it object orientated 21:42:52 not concatenative 21:42:56 from a first look at it 21:43:04 AnMaster: but that's not actually integral to the language 21:43:08 it could be implemented as a library 21:43:09 oh it isn't? 21:43:12 and probably would be 21:44:18 tusho, what is called? 21:44:33 AnMaster: i just invented it right now to show that example to SimonRC 21:44:37 ah 21:44:38 so you can probably guess that it's unnamed 21:44:45 tusho, implement it fully! 21:44:47 specs! 21:44:53 AnMaster: i will! 21:44:55 it got potential 21:45:11 i would anyway, if only to see you maybe write a program in something that isn't c or bash :) 21:45:19 (or an esolang) 21:45:24 tusho, hah 21:45:34 tusho, I have coded in pascal and apple script before 21:45:39 oh and C# 21:45:40 *g* 21:45:47 tusho, but they are worse 21:45:47 tusho: do you know how Forth programs are compiled? 21:45:49 way worse 21:45:51 SimonRC: yes 21:45:55 i've read jonesforth a few times 21:45:59 good 21:46:35 SimonRC: do you like my little language? 21:46:40 in it, class: etc are just words, of course 21:46:41 alas, I get DNS errors for pastebin.ca 21:46:44 huh 21:46:45 okay 21:46:47 i'll paste elsewhere 21:47:00 http://rafb.net/p/0V40Bd52.txt 21:47:23 tusho, well what do you think of C#, Pascal (Delphi style) and apple script 21:47:41 c# has some nice functional things, better than java certainly 21:47:48 pascal, well, it's alright :) tex and all 21:47:49 tusho, C# 2.0 that is 21:47:56 tusho, object pascal 21:48:00 apple script, I Can't Believe It's Not English! Wait yes I can 21:48:07 tusho, hahah :D 21:48:22 tusho, but yes it sucks 21:50:35 personally, I would extends using this syntax: 21:50:46 parent class: child 21:51:08 things with no superclass just use 0 or object as the parent 21:51:22 SimonRC: my way allows for MI, though :-P 21:51:26 anyway, if you don't like it 21:51:28 write your own oop lib 21:51:35 those features are totally orthogonal to the language 21:51:37 -!- RedDak has joined. 21:51:39 not built in at all 21:51:51 I have seen simple OO for forth done in literally 1 screen of code 21:52:11 SimonRC, same 21:52:15 seen bashforth btw? 21:52:18 quite cool 21:52:26 SimonRC: yes, but my language is different in paradigm :) 21:52:27 * SimonRC googles 21:52:35 there is one thing I can't figure out though, how to use methods and functions named the same 21:52:37 like 21:52:43 if I want a function named 'foo' but I have a method named foo 21:52:44 my language is a paradigm too! 21:52:45 and I do 21:52:50 instance foo 21:53:02 and the instance is on the class wth the method named foo 21:53:03 kaboom 21:53:07 * SimonRC sucks at his teeth 21:53:26 surely classes should be words that leave some speical address on the stack 21:53:45 and anything that consumes a class consumes the speciall address of the class from the stack? 21:53:57 SimonRC: You are thinking too low-level. :-P 21:54:01 seems nice to me 21:54:09 tusho: it's more forthy 21:54:15 my language isn't very forthy 22:00:37 SimonRC: how minimal do you think I can make my bootstrap language? 22:00:45 hopefully, I want to make it like the lambda calculus of functional concatenative langs 22:02:47 you could make lambda-abstractions and application the primitives? 22:03:01 using de bruijn indexes of course 22:03:07 SimonRC: hmm, example? 22:03:29 actually, I am not quite sure how that would work 22:04:20 the most primitive bootstrapping you could get away with is a "read word into memory" and an "execute" 22:04:23 hmm 22:04:59 * SimonRC doesn't feel helpful 22:14:20 * SimonRC goes to bed 22:24:05 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 22:27:11 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 22:40:55 -!- Corun has joined. 22:55:11 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:05:26 Bacl 23:17:14 26 hours on planes and in airports = ROCK ON 23:18:34 GregorR: yes 23:19:54 26 hours on planes and in airports AFTER being awake for 24 hours = ROCK ON++ 23:20:40 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:28:14 GregorR: Kittens 23:28:16 ROCK ON 23:28:25 AGREED 23:37:19 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:41:12 Rocks 23:47:46 cctoide: GregorR: Socks! 23:49:00 SOCK ON 23:59:23 cctoide: GregorR: 'SOCK EMPORIUM'