←2008-05-17 2008-05-18 2008-05-19→ ↑2008 ↑all
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02:25:47 <ehird> Bye for today :-)
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09:00:56 <asiekierka> Hey
09:00:57 <asiekierka> and
09:01:00 <asiekierka> Eww... http://rafb.net/p/gu9rwa95.html
09:01:17 <asiekierka> Asie-1 CPU turned out to be a failure, mostly because of a lack of one function.
09:01:31 <asiekierka> MOV b, (value)
09:01:40 <asiekierka> also, wait, i must explain the Asie-1 CPU in clearer detail
09:02:47 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/Thp4Xp89.html
09:02:52 <asiekierka> this is some more explanation
09:03:42 <olsner> asiekierka: that first link is a 404 for me
09:04:24 <asiekierka> i deleted it
09:04:29 <asiekierka> the second one is the revamp
09:04:31 <olsner> oh, okay
09:04:36 <asiekierka> explains it in clearer detail
09:04:52 <asiekierka> Sadly, i couldn't put another instruction in. MOV b, (value)
09:04:55 <asiekierka> or LDA (value)
09:05:03 <asiekierka> well, i could extend LDA to 16 bits
09:05:04 <asiekierka> but
09:05:05 <asiekierka> eeeww
09:05:26 <asiekierka> or maybe YOU can propose an instruction to remove
09:05:31 <olsner> but immediates are pretty simple to do with load-from-memory, right?
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09:05:59 <asiekierka> you must INC b a ton of times
09:06:10 <asiekierka> but 256 bytes of memory is just NOT enough for this.
09:06:24 <asiekierka> see, i need to either revamp LDA
09:06:27 <asiekierka> to be 16-bits
09:06:33 <asiekierka> or remove an instruction
09:06:51 <asiekierka> so, basically, you CAN'T do immediates without creating them first
09:07:02 <olsner> oh, 16-bit registers, but 8-bit memory?
09:07:07 <asiekierka> 8-bit registers
09:07:10 <asiekierka> 8-bit memory
09:07:18 <asiekierka> 8-bit program counter
09:07:27 <asiekierka> which calls for a total of 256 bytes of program size.
09:07:44 <asiekierka> that's why i tried to make all instructions <16 bits.
09:07:48 <asiekierka> 13 bits is just an odd size
09:08:13 <asiekierka> so, instructions are either 4 bits or 12 bits
09:08:43 <asiekierka> if i want to do NOT x (0101) and AND x (0111), i do: 0101 0111 in a single byte
09:08:56 <asiekierka> olsner: any ideas on what to remove?
09:09:09 <asiekierka> I thought of removing NOT b and AND b and replacing them with NAND b
09:09:25 <olsner> hmm, so why can't you just put the immediate in memory somewhere and just do LDA addr; MOV b, a;?
09:09:33 <asiekierka> i can
09:09:34 <asiekierka> but
09:09:40 <asiekierka> i don't have the way to put the immediate
09:09:46 <asiekierka> also, MOV works MOV src,dest here
09:09:50 <asiekierka> so i think you mean MOV a, b
09:09:57 <asiekierka> i can only INC a ton of times
09:10:08 <asiekierka> but that can waste more than a half of the program!
09:11:36 <asiekierka> any ideas on what to remove?
09:11:46 <asiekierka> I'm thinking of combining NOT x and AND x
09:11:51 <olsner> NOP sounds obviously removable
09:11:59 <asiekierka> you DON'T know how useful it is
09:12:04 <asiekierka> how else will you make delays in the program?
09:12:14 <asiekierka> NOP sounds obviously UNremovable
09:12:19 <olsner> INC b; DEC b; for example?
09:12:26 <asiekierka> *sigh*
09:12:32 <asiekierka> NOP is one-cycle here
09:12:36 <olsner> or just jump around a lot
09:12:40 <asiekierka> every command is 1 cycle
09:13:00 <asiekierka> well, olsner, NOT x and AND x can be combined
09:13:06 <asiekierka> while NOT b and AND b will be left separate
09:13:19 <olsner> hmm, so you're using this for a real-world application where 1-cycle accuracy in delays is vital?
09:13:19 <asiekierka> you still can MOV x, a and MOV a, b
09:13:27 <asiekierka> no, i was just creating this
09:13:29 <asiekierka> but anyway
09:13:31 <asiekierka> you're half-right
09:13:39 <asiekierka> but i'm wasting 4 bits with your code
09:13:45 <asiekierka> and space is important in 256 bytes
09:13:51 <asiekierka> i will combine NOT x and AND x
09:14:05 <olsner> yeah, program size is a big factor with such a small memory space
09:14:15 <asiekierka> also, i'm making more space by adding NAND x
09:14:18 <asiekierka> still 4 bits
09:14:21 <asiekierka> but is 2 functions in one
09:15:36 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/ODmyxB22.html
09:15:39 <asiekierka> the newest link
09:15:48 <asiekierka> now I think i can write an useful program
09:16:02 <asiekierka> what about you?
09:16:14 <asiekierka> will you try?
09:18:36 <GreaseMonkey> hey look, it's asie!
09:18:48 <GreaseMonkey> i had no idea you did esolangs.
09:18:49 <asiekierka> hey look, it's the Grease Monkey!
09:18:53 <asiekierka> it's not an esolang
09:18:59 <asiekierka> it's a full-blown CPU architecture
09:19:13 <asiekierka> I did set myself a goal of making a functional CPU in as less opcodes as possible
09:19:20 <asiekierka> while still doing most of possible functions
09:19:23 <asiekierka> without bonus registers
09:19:26 <asiekierka> And i succeded
09:19:28 <asiekierka> with 16 opcodes
09:19:38 <asiekierka> but you can minimize it to 14
09:19:41 <asiekierka> by removing the NOP
09:19:47 <asiekierka> and combining NOT b and AND b
09:19:54 <GreaseMonkey> i recommend using the stack if you want a good amount of memory
09:19:56 <asiekierka> but 15 opcodes is the bare usefulity minimum
09:20:07 <asiekierka> GreaseMonkey: no opcodes left
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09:21:06 <asiekierka> An entire processor can be created using NAND gates alone.
09:21:08 <asiekierka> hmm
09:21:13 <GreaseMonkey> hmm... i have a plan for a system somewhere...
09:21:15 <asiekierka> 0000 - NAND a, b
09:21:18 <asiekierka> 0001 - NAND a, x
09:21:23 <asiekierka> 0010 - NAND b, a
09:21:28 <asiekierka> 0011 - NAND x, a
09:21:34 <asiekierka> 0100 - NAND x, b
09:21:39 <asiekierka> 0101 - NAND b, x
09:21:49 <asiekierka> NAND reg1, reg2/dest
09:21:57 <asiekierka> 6 opcode NAND cpu
09:22:20 <GreaseMonkey> you'd probably need to load some stuff up, first.
09:22:31 <oklofok> asiekierka: nand gates != nand opcodes, though
09:22:52 <asiekierka> just kidding
09:22:54 <oklofok> you cannot really do much program flow control on pure computative opcodes.
09:23:00 <GreaseMonkey> also, logic opcodes are really irritating when it comes to arithmetic
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09:23:16 <asiekierka> oklopol: i wanted to keep it simple
09:23:24 <oklopol> heh, quite a coincidence i dropped
09:23:32 <asiekierka> hmm
09:23:37 <asiekierka> wait
09:23:46 <asiekierka> wait
09:23:52 <olsner> using nand gates for useful stuff involve re-routing of bits, not sure you can get it complete with just nanding bitwise between whole words
09:24:01 <asiekierka> ... just kidding anyway
09:24:05 <asiekierka> well
09:24:07 <asiekierka> returning to Asie-1
09:24:07 <oklopol> olsner: my point exactly
09:24:18 <asiekierka> I.E. http://rafb.net/p/ODmyxB22.html - for oklopol
09:24:40 <GreaseMonkey> have you ever coded for the 6502?
09:24:45 <asiekierka> the "no-special-register as-small-instruction-set-CPU-as-possible with-some-usefulity"
09:24:53 <asiekierka> GreaseMonkey: slightly, but nothing pretty important
09:24:58 <asiekierka> so, GreaseMonkey, yes
09:25:03 <GreaseMonkey> ok.
09:26:05 <oklopol> nand-and-branch-if-zero
09:26:08 <oklopol> hmm
09:26:49 <oklopol> right, right, won't work
09:27:20 <asiekierka> i have compare-and-jump-if-equal
09:27:33 <oklopol> (you need bitshifts, which are implicit in wire maps, but not as opcodes)
09:27:40 <asiekierka> ... ok
09:27:47 <asiekierka> but i don't really have space
09:27:50 <asiekierka> only one single opcode
09:27:53 <asiekierka> erm... or two
09:27:58 <asiekierka> SHR and ROL i think
09:28:01 <oklopol> asiekierka: i mean, nand-and-branch won't work without em
09:28:16 <asiekierka> SHR and ROL... maybe some else?
09:28:33 <oklopol> is that an asm of yours?
09:28:37 <asiekierka> sorta
09:28:43 <asiekierka> my CPU thingie
09:28:49 <asiekierka> Asie-1
09:28:56 <asiekierka> I'd so like to implement it in Verilog
09:29:00 <asiekierka> then connect it to a TV xD
09:29:44 <oklopol> connect it to a tv?
09:29:57 <asiekierka> yes
09:30:02 <asiekierka> or add a diode
09:30:03 <asiekierka> whatever
09:30:08 <asiekierka> so it can show something
09:30:10 <asiekierka> :)
09:30:11 <oklopol> to achieve what, i'm sensing i'm missing some awesomeness
09:30:28 <asiekierka> nothing really
09:30:33 <oklopol> hmm, can't you "show something" on a computer?
09:30:48 <asiekierka> i wanted to showcase Asie-1 with connecting it to a screen
09:30:53 <asiekierka> Asie-1...
09:31:01 <asiekierka> But well, i'll probably wait for Asie-2 with this.
09:31:10 <asiekierka> which bitshifts are needed?
09:31:14 <asiekierka> ROR, ROL, SHR, SHL?
09:31:16 <asiekierka> up to two
09:32:02 <oklopol> one of them can do all the others if you make SH's set a flag indicating the thingie that was dropped
09:32:17 <oklopol> thingie = bit
09:32:17 <asiekierka> no place for flagd
09:32:20 <asiekierka> flags
09:32:22 <asiekierka> except if in memory
09:32:34 <oklopol> even then, one can do all the others
09:32:39 <asiekierka> ROR...
09:32:42 <asiekierka> i guess ROR
09:32:50 <asiekierka> is it the good choice?
09:33:13 <asiekierka> it basically keeps the last bit
09:33:18 <asiekierka> you can AND the value
09:33:20 <asiekierka> then ROR it again
09:33:25 <oklopol> i ROL with it.
09:33:46 <asiekierka> ROL. so... should i add a ROckeR or a ROLler?
09:33:48 <oklopol> umm what do you mean basically keeps the last bit
09:34:04 <GreaseMonkey> hmm... you could ROL, SHL, and INV
09:34:11 <asiekierka> SHR is: 76543210 -> #7654321
09:34:13 <GreaseMonkey> INV will invert the bit order
09:34:25 <asiekierka> ROR is: 76543210 -> 07654321
09:34:39 <asiekierka> you can then AND the value from ROR to get SHR
09:34:45 <oklopol> also i'm pretty sure my neighbors are having sex
09:34:46 <asiekierka> the same with SHL
09:34:48 <asiekierka> and ROL
09:35:12 <asiekierka> also, is there a very simple low-opcode CPU architecture out there?
09:35:23 <oklopol> subtract-and-branch-if-zero?
09:35:33 <asiekierka> slightly higher than this
09:35:41 <asiekierka> but slightly lower than my own
09:36:01 <oklopol> well less than or equal to zero i guess is the official one
09:36:15 <oklopol> although equal-to is prolly enough
09:36:28 <oklopol> i don't know any.
09:36:31 <oklopol> i've made a few myself
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09:36:40 <oklopol> one with some 6 ops
09:36:50 <asiekierka> 6 ops :)
09:36:50 <oklopol> but it had bignums!
09:36:54 <asiekierka> oh
09:37:00 <asiekierka> can't we decrase it to 8 or 16 bits?
09:37:13 <oklopol> umm, actually 4 or 5, but one was cheated and did tons of stuff.
09:38:04 <oklopol> you just need subtraction for arithmetic, ror and nand for bit stuff, and branch-if-less-than-or-equal-to-zero for jumping around
09:38:10 <asiekierka> :)
09:38:26 <oklopol> ALSO PERHAPS AN INSTRUCTION THAT PUTS THE COMPUTATION IN A MONAD
09:38:33 <asiekierka> what do you mean
09:38:33 <oklopol> AND CALL/CC
09:38:54 <oklopol> i mean nothing
09:39:00 <asiekierka> also, you need LDA for loading immediates/memory values AND STA for saving them
09:39:07 <oklopol> right, right
09:39:17 <oklopol> that's 6
09:39:31 <oklopol> and even then it has some sweet redundancy!
09:39:33 <asiekierka> but it still gives more opcodes in total
09:39:55 <oklopol> depends
09:40:26 <oklopol> on what do you consider a separate opcode
09:40:35 <asiekierka> anything that has different register params
09:40:46 <oklopol> mov a,b != mov b,a?
09:40:50 <asiekierka> no
09:40:52 <asiekierka> i'm putting only
09:40:53 <asiekierka> swp b,a
09:40:55 <asiekierka> and swp x,a
09:40:57 <asiekierka> oklopol: yes
09:41:05 <asiekierka> but with swaps, i'm limiting 4 instructions to just 2
09:41:09 <asiekierka> which IS an improvement
09:41:32 <oklopol> well mov is more general
09:41:53 <oklopol> with swp, you can only move, with mov, you can copy.
09:42:07 <oklopol> kinda ironic, huh?
09:42:14 <asiekierka> i'll see how many instructions i'll have left
09:42:45 <asiekierka> also, my values are unsigned
09:42:53 <asiekierka> so i can do branch-if-zero
09:43:19 <oklopol> 0111$$$$ $$$$ - LDI ($$$$$$$$ - immediate value)
09:43:19 <oklopol> 1000$$$$ $$$$ - LDA ($$$$$$$$ - memory position)
09:43:19 <oklopol> 1001$$$$ $$$$ - STA ($$$$$$$$ - memory position)
09:43:27 <asiekierka> ...yes
09:43:28 <oklopol> right, different register params
09:43:45 <asiekierka> that's different commands though!
09:43:46 <oklopol> i'm not really practical enough to assume a register-based processor.
09:44:02 <asiekierka> LDI loads an immediate, LDA loads from a memory position, STA stores to a memory position!
09:44:18 <oklopol> which is why i found it weird different params would be different opcodes
09:44:24 <oklopol> yeah, yeah
09:44:51 <oklopol> i just usually have the memory, and no registers, for my asms
09:45:04 <asiekierka> I will have 2 kinds of branches
09:45:14 <asiekierka> beq (branch-if-equal) and bze (branch-if-zero)
09:45:24 <asiekierka> and nop
09:45:27 <asiekierka> i will still have 2 opcodes left
09:45:50 <asiekierka> so i can change the swaps to MOVs
09:45:58 <oklopol> bze and beq are just a few ops away
09:46:06 <oklopol> although i'm sure you knew that already.
09:46:19 <asiekierka> what do you mean "just a few ops away"?
09:46:24 <asiekierka> also
09:46:26 <asiekierka> saving space
09:47:06 <oklopol> code = code[bze/beq] +- n, where n is about 4, and A/B means swap A and B
09:47:19 <oklopol> umm, about 4 per swap
09:47:48 <oklopol> (and these number are opcounts)
09:47:58 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/FDA2ox85.html
09:47:58 <asiekierka> hmm
09:48:20 <asiekierka> INCs now can be done in loops with beq
09:48:25 <asiekierka> with 255 DECs
09:48:26 <oklopol> what i mean is, you don't *need* both of those, but you knew that already
09:48:32 <asiekierka> but i can
09:48:40 <asiekierka> i don't have any other instruction to add anyway
09:49:01 <asiekierka> well
09:49:03 <asiekierka> i can remove bze
09:49:08 <asiekierka> since i can set B to zero
09:49:20 <asiekierka> then just beq
09:49:51 <oklopol> well yeah, bze a = beq a a, beq a b = bze (sub a b)
09:50:06 <oklopol> err
09:50:08 <oklopol> lol.
09:50:16 <oklopol> how the fuck can i fail at that :D
09:50:16 <asiekierka> what?
09:50:22 <asiekierka> what did you do?
09:50:24 <oklopol> bze a = beq a 0 ofc
09:50:35 <asiekierka> and that's what i'm doing
09:50:45 <asiekierka> i could add an instruction "ZERO b"
09:50:49 <asiekierka> that zero's B
09:51:00 <asiekierka> but you can do it manually
09:51:02 <oklopol> you can just load an empty memory slot
09:51:06 <asiekierka> i know
09:51:08 <oklopol> have those be 0
09:51:13 <asiekierka> mov a, b (moves A to B)
09:51:21 <asiekierka> lda #0 (loads zero to A)
09:51:28 <asiekierka> copies A to B*
09:51:29 <asiekierka> here
09:51:47 <asiekierka> bze was 4 bits, this is sadly 16
09:51:51 <asiekierka> but who cares :P
09:52:00 <asiekierka> 256 bytes of program is there.
09:52:04 <asiekierka> but you can bank it, heh.
09:52:09 <asiekierka> Memory != program, sadly
09:52:10 <asiekierka> oh
09:52:12 <asiekierka> i could add
09:52:13 <asiekierka> LDP
09:52:16 <asiekierka> or wait
09:52:17 <asiekierka> not
09:52:33 <asiekierka> Well, the program can either supply it's own 256 bytes of memory
09:52:37 <asiekierka> or use the builtin
09:52:47 <asiekierka> if the program supplies it's own, this allows for banking
09:53:05 <asiekierka> i could add LDPC
09:53:07 <oklopol> perhaps i should make a declarative asm
09:53:10 <asiekierka> which loads the Program Counte----
09:53:13 <asiekierka> well, not
09:53:14 <oklopol> that would be so sweet
09:53:19 <asiekierka> since the program counter is "9 bits"
09:53:19 <oklopol> sugary goodness
09:53:28 <asiekierka> oklopol: Do you like Asie-2?
09:53:37 <asiekierka> will you program anything for it?
09:54:10 <oklopol> well i'll gladly program something given something to program in it
09:54:20 <asiekierka> hmm
09:54:26 <asiekierka> Pi number calculator?
09:54:31 <oklopol> heh
09:54:36 <asiekierka> a tool that calculates Pi numbers
09:54:42 <asiekierka> well, i think, with such a limited amount of opcodes
09:54:45 <asiekierka> Asie-2 will be quite fast
09:57:08 <asiekierka> oklopol: are you doing it, or are you waiting for an easier task?
09:58:21 <oklopol> i'm actually trying to find the best way to do it, not that i'm necessarily going to do it anyway
09:58:43 <oklopol> you can compile it to c, and use a c compiler, perhaps.
09:59:26 <asiekierka> nope, this will be too much of a waste
09:59:31 <asiekierka> Pi number calculator for asie-2
10:01:19 <oklopol> what will be too much of a waste?
10:02:19 <asiekierka> C compilation
10:02:27 <asiekierka> for 256 bytes of program size
10:03:53 <oklopol> pi calculation is impossible in 256 bytes
10:09:29 <olsner> yes, pi has over 9000 decimals
10:12:06 <oklopol> olsner: what do you mean?
10:12:50 <oklopol> 256 bytes ~ 616 decimals, pi has inf decimals, 256 != 9000, what's 9000?
10:13:44 <olsner> 9000 is a random big number that is well above the number of decimals that fit in 256 bytes
10:14:32 <oklopol> please elaborate on why you picked exactly *that* random number.
10:14:38 <oklopol> 8794 is much more random.
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10:18:05 <olsner> an attempt to integrate the OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!! meme into the discussion, but it seems to have failed
10:18:34 <oklopol> i know, just wanted you to explain the joke.
10:18:41 <olsner> how mean
10:18:44 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
10:18:51 <oklopol> sorry, i'm pretty tired.
10:19:04 <oklopol> i think i'll break the pi calculation record now
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10:19:38 <asiekierka> Back
10:19:47 <oklopol> how was it?
10:19:49 <asiekierka> oklopol: heh, you can implement banking in memory
10:19:56 <asiekierka> for your pi calculation
10:20:24 <oklopol> what do you mean?
10:20:36 <asiekierka> you can set a register in memory
10:20:37 <oklopol> 256 bytes is not enough to hold a program that calculates pi
10:20:45 <asiekierka> you can have 256^2 bytes
10:20:51 <asiekierka> but you can only access 256 at a time
10:20:55 <asiekierka> Answer is banking
10:21:00 <asiekierka> you have a register in memory
10:21:12 <asiekierka> that accesses the bank of program equal to it's value
10:21:35 <oklopol> and does what exactly?
10:22:08 <oklopol> runs it tail-recursively?
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10:37:12 <asiekierka> well
10:37:14 <asiekierka> oklopol
10:37:20 <asiekierka> 256 bytes means up to 512 commands
10:37:31 <asiekierka> except loading/storing/comparsion stuff, that takes 12 bits, not 4
10:37:44 <asiekierka> also
10:37:49 <asiekierka> what about Fibonacci, oklopol?
10:39:52 <asiekierka> also
10:40:06 <asiekierka> is there any System 7 C compiler to download for free?
10:40:10 <asiekierka> or System 6
10:40:51 <oklopol> asiekierka: i can calculate the number of ops per 256 bytes, i'm asking what it means to change the bank
10:41:07 <asiekierka> you set $01 (or whatever position you want) to the number of the bank
10:41:10 <oklopol> i'm assuming it's a recursive call, and you can use a bank load as a function call
10:41:22 <asiekierka> then the Nth bank becomes the program code
10:41:23 <asiekierka> N=$01
10:41:28 <asiekierka> $01 memory address
10:41:33 <asiekierka> you start in the same position tho
10:41:43 <oklopol> start in the same position?
10:42:02 <asiekierka> if you set it when PC = ..4.5
10:42:11 <asiekierka> 4.5 byte
10:42:23 <asiekierka> then the bank starts execution at the 5th byte
10:42:28 <asiekierka> or 6th byte
10:42:34 <asiekierka> depends how large the set instruction is
10:42:51 <oklopol> makes compilation into banked pretty hard
10:43:02 <oklopol> but i like a challengr
10:43:05 <oklopol> *challenge
10:43:10 <asiekierka> heh
10:43:17 <asiekierka> that's the only way to do anything IMPRESSIVE
10:43:23 <oklopol> :o
10:43:32 <oklopol> can you set pc explicitly?
10:43:37 <asiekierka> no
10:43:37 <oklopol> i haven't read the instruction set
10:43:40 <oklopol> i'm illiterate
10:43:42 <asiekierka> i can add one more instruction
10:43:43 <asiekierka> though
10:43:44 <asiekierka> for it
10:44:35 <asiekierka> LDPC
10:44:39 <asiekierka> or no
10:44:40 <asiekierka> STPC
10:44:46 <asiekierka> sets the Program Counter
10:44:51 <asiekierka> but takes effect immediately
10:44:59 <asiekierka> and you can use Branching for it anyways
10:46:51 <asiekierka> is there an assembler/C compiler for the System 6?
10:46:54 <asiekierka> Mac 6.0.8
10:47:51 <Slereah_> The Ghostviewer logo looks like a Klansman.
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11:27:17 <oklopol> gonna sleep for a sinister second now ->
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11:27:54 <asiekierka> Heh
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16:05:20 <wooby> hello!
16:06:47 <ehird> hi
16:07:09 <wooby> hows it goin
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16:07:47 <ehird> well.
16:34:49 <uvanta> ...
16:40:55 <ehird> uvanta: yeah.
16:41:12 <uvanta> yeah
16:41:47 <ehird> uvanta: yeah
16:41:55 <uvanta> so...
16:41:59 <ehird> uvanta: so...
16:42:09 <uvanta> hows it goin?
16:42:19 * ehird has quit (Client Quit)
16:43:15 <uvanta> well.
16:43:32 <ehird> ...
16:43:35 <uvanta> ...i can't do this anymore ROFL
16:43:46 <ehird> uvanta: damn you, i was going on for 6 hours there
16:44:14 <uvanta> sorry man
16:44:38 <ehird> uvanta: i'm not accepting your apology. you have ruined my life
16:44:42 <ehird> good bye forever
16:44:44 * ehird has quit (Client Quit)
16:44:56 <uvanta> well.
16:45:21 <ehird> ...
16:45:35 <uvanta> ehird: yeah.
16:45:41 <ehird> so...
16:45:48 <uvanta> ehird: so...
16:45:59 <ehird> hows it goin?
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16:46:13 <ehird> err.
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17:48:41 <asiekierka> Hheeyy
17:49:11 <ehird> Oh no,
17:49:13 <ehird> Oh no,
17:49:14 <ehird> Oh no.
17:49:24 <asiekierka> no worries, i'm not a troll now
17:49:26 <asiekierka> I changed.
17:49:42 * ehird eyes suspiciously
17:49:46 <ehird> :P
17:53:23 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/UqWHs616.html
17:53:27 <asiekierka> Asie-1.2 CPU architecture
17:53:32 <asiekierka> 15-opcode madness
17:54:19 <asiekierka> 1101 - reserved, I.E. think of anything you could put there for Asie-1.3 :)
17:54:47 <ehird> asiekierka: 15 opcodes ... sounds like Yael
17:54:51 <asiekierka> Yael?
17:54:59 <ehird> ... and indeed the opcodes are similar
17:55:03 <ehird> asiekierka: esolangs.org/wiki/Yael
17:55:09 <asiekierka> didn't know about Yael
17:55:20 <asiekierka> oklopol proposed what instructions should be there for minimalism
17:56:01 <asiekierka> my is slightly different, though
17:56:03 <asiekierka> it has only nand
17:56:05 <asiekierka> only dec
17:56:14 <asiekierka> only 3 registers
17:56:23 <asiekierka> and trying to keep opcode size minimalism
17:56:50 <asiekierka> you must do other gates with nand
17:57:01 <asiekierka> also, this one is easy to implement
17:57:16 <asiekierka> 256 bytes of program, 256 bytes of memory
17:57:16 <ehird> asiekierka: er, so is mine
17:57:19 <ehird> asiekierka: ah
17:57:28 <ehird> asiekierka: then yours is hideously underpowered
17:57:39 <asiekierka> it was meant to be easy to implement
17:58:02 <asiekierka> though i was thinking of STP as the 16th opcode, it'll store whatever you have at A into the program counter
17:58:04 <ehird> asiekierka: {} is easier
17:58:11 <asiekierka> {}?
17:58:14 <asiekierka> what is {}
17:58:25 <ehird> asiekierka: the empty set.
17:58:38 <asiekierka> what is the empty set?
17:58:40 <asiekierka> it's empty
17:58:45 <asiekierka> it's an empty set
17:58:46 <ehird> asiekierka: correct.
17:58:48 <asiekierka> but what do you mean?
17:58:52 <ehird> this means that implementing it is trivial
17:58:54 <ehird> cases in point
17:58:57 <ehird> brainfuck:
17:59:02 <asiekierka> also, implementing it into an FPGA
17:59:02 <ehird> C: int main(){return 0;}
17:59:03 <asiekierka> i mean
17:59:14 <ehird> FPGA: { -- air -- }
17:59:21 <asiekierka> in Verilog
17:59:24 <asiekierka> i actually plan to do this
17:59:27 <asiekierka> Asie-1.2 FPGA
17:59:36 <asiekierka> it could be really fast, you know?
17:59:40 <ehird> asiekierka: empty set is faster
17:59:42 <asiekierka> with such a small instruction amount
18:00:00 <asiekierka> Empty set... i.e. no instructions?
18:00:07 <ehird> asiekierka: correct
18:00:21 <asiekierka> Asie-0, you mean
18:00:23 <ehird> asiekierka: you said that yours was designed to be easy to implement
18:00:29 <asiekierka> and still useful
18:00:33 <ehird> asiekierka: and, well, your actual machine is useful for just about nothing
18:00:36 <asiekierka> without registers that do special stuff
18:00:39 <asiekierka> calculations, ehird
18:00:40 <ehird> so the empty set doesn't cost you much
18:00:41 <ehird> and wins you a lot
18:00:46 <asiekierka> another device can output stuff
18:00:50 <asiekierka> like, calculations
18:00:52 <asiekierka> it's possible
18:00:58 <ehird> asiekierka: but .. still not very useful
18:01:02 <ehird> it would need to be a bit higher power
18:01:05 <ehird> to be more useful than {}
18:01:10 <asiekierka> {} does NOTHING
18:01:15 <asiekierka> this does A BIT
18:01:21 <asiekierka> a bit I.E. somethning easy
18:03:57 <ehird> asiekierka: meh
18:04:00 <ehird> its's not much useful
18:05:48 <asiekierka> I was bored while making it
18:05:57 <asiekierka> i wanted something that has more opcodes than subleq
18:06:01 <ehird> asiekierka: sure, it's cool
18:06:05 <asiekierka> while less than most of the CPUs out there
18:06:05 <ehird> jus tnot particularly useful :-P
18:06:18 <asiekierka> i had this idea for an INVersion mode
18:06:20 <ehird> asiekierka: here's a challenge
18:06:23 <ehird> asiekierka: a lazy cpu
18:06:23 <asiekierka> dec x becomes inc x
18:06:31 <asiekierka> ror x becomes rol x
18:06:33 <asiekierka> and nand x - nor x
18:06:40 <asiekierka> a lazy cpu?
18:06:49 <ehird> asiekierka: yes
18:06:52 <ehird> a cpu based on lazy evaluation
18:07:00 <asiekierka> lazy evaluation? what's that?
18:07:05 <ehird> asiekierka: ... :'(
18:07:06 <asiekierka> you must explain things to an 11-year-old
18:07:16 <ehird> asiekierka: the wikipedia!
18:07:24 <asiekierka> i must pack to school now
18:07:25 <asiekierka> sry
18:07:36 <ehird> awlrighty then
18:07:40 <asiekierka> but i have a challenge for you!
18:07:46 <asiekierka> A CPU with -1 opcodes.
18:08:31 <ehird> asiekierka: quite impossible and meaningless
18:08:35 <ehird> :p
18:08:38 <ehird> however
18:08:39 <ehird> }{
18:08:43 <ehird> if CPU 0 = {}
18:08:47 <asiekierka> ehird: #1: Everything is possible
18:08:47 <ehird> then CPU -1 is where it overflows
18:08:49 <ehird> ergo }{
18:08:57 <asiekierka> #2: If something's impossible, see #1
18:09:01 <ehird> the challenge is writing a compiler for }{
18:09:05 <ehird> it's quite impossible.
18:09:19 <ehird> you could probably write one in }{ though.
18:09:20 <asiekierka> (hidden {)... }{ ... (hidden })
18:09:22 <asiekierka> haha
18:09:34 <asiekierka> well
18:09:35 <asiekierka> always
18:09:38 <asiekierka> } 0 {
18:09:45 <asiekierka> if you use Asie-}{
18:10:28 <ehird> I wonder what -x86 is.
18:10:34 <ehird> if x86 is {foo}, -x86 is }foo{
18:10:38 <ehird> oklopol would have a field day with this
18:10:39 <asiekierka> it's wrong!, it should be x-86
18:10:44 <asiekierka> x = 86 - ?
18:10:47 <asiekierka> ? = ??
18:11:00 <asiekierka> ?? = [??]
18:11:04 <asiekierka> [??] = [00]
18:11:07 <asiekierka> [00] = []
18:11:17 <asiekierka> [] = 42
18:11:20 <asiekierka> ? = 42
18:11:23 <asiekierka> x = 86 - 42
18:11:29 <asiekierka> x = 44!
18:11:30 <asiekierka> i win
18:11:32 <asiekierka> xD
18:11:37 <asiekierka> or not
18:11:41 <asiekierka> it should be 42 - 86
18:11:44 <asiekierka> but who cares
18:12:24 <ehird> asiekierka: I .. see
18:12:53 <asiekierka> i'm just kidding anyway
18:13:03 <asiekierka> it's the Idiot's way to solving idiotic equations
18:13:27 <asiekierka> Rule #1: [] = 42
18:13:43 <asiekierka> Rule #2: If a value dosen't fit or is random, and you can't do anything with it, turn it to zero's!
18:13:53 <asiekierka> Rule #3: Behave like an idiot adding stuff and mixing it
18:14:17 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: OMFG NEW DRESDEN CODAK
18:15:08 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
18:15:25 <ehird> :-------__O
18:16:32 <RodgerTheGreat> gah! he answers questions with more perplexing riddles!
18:20:03 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: I judge this contract, which is a contest: {}
18:20:54 <RodgerTheGreat> uh
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19:11:41 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: !!!
19:11:45 <RodgerTheGreat> :D
19:12:22 <pikhq> OMFG!
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19:14:41 <ehird> gazonk
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21:32:01 <SimonRC> I have the beginnings of a compiler that targets befunge
21:32:04 <SimonRC> properly
21:32:27 <SimonRC> not like that scheme compiler that put all the code on one line
21:32:54 <SimonRC> currently you can't do much interesting with it though
21:33:34 <SimonRC> but it can do this:
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21:33:46 <SimonRC> *Main> ppp $ emit $ fst $ parse "1 zput begin zget 1 > while zget * zget 1- zput again"
21:33:49 <SimonRC> 18 3 1 2
21:33:51 <SimonRC> neat, eh?
21:33:54 <SimonRC> vp00-1g00*g00<
21:33:56 <SimonRC> 100p>00g1` |
21:33:59 <SimonRC> >
21:34:08 <SimonRC> the input is forth-like
21:34:35 <SimonRC> the first line of output is width, height, entry row, exit row
21:34:50 <SimonRC> correct, of course
21:35:51 <SimonRC> whaddya think?
21:35:55 <SimonRC> anyone?
21:38:36 <SimonRC> (Haskell makes throwing this stuff together so easy.)
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21:42:16 <ehird> Back
21:42:32 <ehird> SimonRC: HASKELL!
21:42:56 <SimonRC> yes
21:43:27 <ehird> SimonRC: can i see the code?
21:43:29 <ehird> hpaste it
21:43:40 <SimonRC> are you on nonlogic?
21:43:45 <SimonRC> (I forget)
21:43:55 <ehird> SimonRC: define 'on'
21:44:04 <SimonRC> actually...
21:45:39 <SimonRC> http://sc.nonlogic.org/Beforth/
21:46:03 <ehird> SimonRC: lern2notpollutemainnamespace
21:46:04 <ehird> :-
21:46:05 <ehird> :-P
21:46:10 <SimonRC> My idea of a website is a set of symlinks into some other directories :-)
21:46:20 <ehird> SimonRC: kinda talking about your haskell
21:46:20 <ehird> heh
21:46:41 <SimonRC> I should re-arrange things
21:47:47 <ehird> SimonRC: I suggest:
21:47:51 <ehird> Language.Beforth.*
21:48:01 <ehird> SimonRC: which gives you the dir tree:
21:48:04 <ehird> src/Language/Beforth/*
21:49:24 <ehird> SimonRC: I am of course nitpicking unimportant things on purpose
21:49:25 <ehird> :P
21:50:54 * SimonRC moves it anyway
21:51:10 <SimonRC> one problem is that your main module has to be called "Main"
21:51:20 <SimonRC> and not "Foo.Bar.Main"
21:52:39 <AnMaster> SimonRC, aww? I wanted to see it
21:54:01 <ehird> SimonRC: yeah
21:54:03 <ehird> so have Main
21:54:11 <ehird> which is a thin wrapper around some stuff in your module
21:54:15 <ehird> SimonRC: Main should be in src/
21:54:22 <ehird> SimonRC: it should do option parsing and file reading and all that
21:54:28 <ehird> then dump the output to a file
21:54:29 <ehird> that's it
21:54:55 <AnMaster> ehird, why not interactive program?
21:55:06 <AnMaster> I assume that is possible in haskell?
21:55:06 <ehird> AnMaster: that makes no sense
21:55:46 <AnMaster> <SimonRC> the input is forth-like
21:55:48 <AnMaster> hm?
21:55:56 <ehird> AnMaster: that means the input language ....
21:56:07 <AnMaster> ah right
21:56:10 * AnMaster reads up
21:56:24 <AnMaster> SimonRC, forth to befunge converter? sounds really really interesting
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21:57:26 <ehird> AnMaster: not real forth
21:57:28 <ehird> just forth-esque
21:57:36 * SimonRC fiddles more
21:57:37 <AnMaster> ah ok
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21:57:40 <AnMaster> still quite cool
21:57:48 <ehird> also, wooo! I Wanna Be The Guy: The Movie: The Game runs with WINE!
21:57:55 <ehird> 8-bit masochism GO
21:58:02 <AnMaster> <SimonRC> vp00-1g00*g00<
21:58:03 <AnMaster> <SimonRC> 100p>00g1` |
21:58:03 <AnMaster> <SimonRC> >
21:58:19 <AnMaster> SimonRC, that > at the end makes no sense
21:58:31 <AnMaster> it will cause an infinite loop
21:58:41 <ehird> AnMaster: maybe he wants an infinite loop
21:58:42 <AnMaster> that can't be broken
21:58:44 <AnMaster> ah
21:58:46 <AnMaster> still
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22:01:53 <SimonRC> AnMaster: it is only a program fragment
22:02:02 <SimonRC> the > at the end leads on to more stuff
22:03:49 <AnMaster> ah
22:03:59 <AnMaster> SimonRC, now, can you compress the code :D
22:04:05 <AnMaster> optimize it I mean
22:05:55 <SimonRC> well, it is optimised a bit
22:06:23 <SimonRC> it folds the second half of the loop backwards and puts it in top of the first half
22:07:14 <SimonRC> Th problem with _ is that you can't flip it horizontally easily
22:07:34 <AnMaster> SimonRC, hm?
22:07:44 <AnMaster> SimonRC, are you doing befunge93 or befunge98?
22:07:55 <AnMaster> I'd say do befunge98
22:08:07 <AnMaster> then you got w instruction that will help you a lot
22:08:11 <SimonRC> yes, 98
22:08:42 <SimonRC> well, I don't want to be too '98y
22:08:50 <SimonRC> yet
22:09:54 <AnMaster> SimonRC, are you using ccbi or cfunge to test the output with?
22:10:04 <AnMaster> that are the only good 98 interpreters out there really
22:10:12 <AnMaster> those*
22:10:45 <AnMaster> ccbi does have better debugging support in general, while cfunge is faster
22:10:51 * AnMaster wrote cfunge and Deewiant wrote ccbio
22:10:52 <AnMaster> err
22:10:53 <AnMaster> ccbi*
22:13:07 <ehird> * [minerale] (i=35181@about/cooking/alfredo/Minerale): minerale
22:13:07 <ehird> * [minerale] #pmog #ircnomic ##mac ##java #gentoo #irssi #lighttpd #oracle #vim #rtorrent #erlang #zsh #screen #wikipedia #macdev ##textmate ##apple #ubuntu #debian #drm ##helenthomasflowers #macports #macosx #goruco
22:13:12 <ehird> >>why<< did that guy join #ircnomic?
22:13:17 <ehird> ###helenthomasflowers? seriously?
22:13:49 <AnMaster> ehird, what on earth is that channel?
22:14:29 <ehird> AnMaster: i have no fucking idea
22:14:32 <ehird> it has him only
22:14:48 <AnMaster> yes I checked that
22:14:49 <ehird> i am thinking BOT
22:14:54 <ehird> but ... i'm not sure
22:15:01 <AnMaster> ehird, not with that cloak
22:15:02 <AnMaster> really
22:15:22 <ehird> AnMaster: about cooking alfredo!
22:15:33 <AnMaster> ehird, anything except a unaffiliated cloak would be impossible to get as a bot
22:15:41 <ehird> AnMaster: about cooking!
22:16:02 <AnMaster> ehird, yes.. about as in ## channel
22:16:05 <ehird> yes
22:17:38 <SimonRC> ok, so the source is moved to http://sc.nonlogic.org/beforth/
22:19:04 <AnMaster> SimonRC, there are more stuff you can't flip
22:19:29 <SimonRC> like?
22:19:49 <AnMaster> oh wait is it only flip horizontally?
22:19:55 <SimonRC> yes
22:20:02 <SimonRC> it isn't very smart
22:20:06 <SimonRC> just a bit smart
22:22:03 <AnMaster> SimonRC, well some would cause different result if you flip them, x sets absolute vector
22:22:10 <AnMaster> so you need to flip the arguments as needed too
22:22:33 <AnMaster> as in not just reverse them
22:22:39 <AnMaster> but add minus sign as needed
22:22:44 <SimonRC> screw x
22:23:02 <SimonRC> it only has to work on befunge that I emit
22:23:24 <AnMaster> SimonRC, anyway what interpreter are you using to test this?
22:23:50 <SimonRC> I'm not
22:23:57 <SimonRC> I'm just inspecting the outputted code
22:24:11 <AnMaster> SimonRC, well I can recommend ccbi and cfunge :)
22:24:20 <SimonRC> actually, currently I'm not working on it
22:24:32 <SimonRC> AnMaster: what're the relative advantages?
22:24:35 <AnMaster> ccbi got better debug support, supports more fingerprints and is more stable, it is coded in D
22:25:16 <AnMaster> cfunge is coded in C, is faster, got some debugging support, but not yet as much, doesn't yet support as many fingerprints and it's code base isn't as stable yet
22:25:24 <AnMaster> ccbi is coded by Deewiant in here
22:25:29 <AnMaster> and cfunge is coded by me
22:25:41 <AnMaster> SimonRC, oh and cfunge will not be easy to run on windows
22:25:52 <AnMaster> but cfunge is mainly coded for speed
22:26:20 <AnMaster> SimonRC, also cfunge is less likely to crash on random input as I have done fuzz testing on it ;)
22:26:29 <AnMaster> with an automated script
22:26:47 <SimonRC> cool
22:27:22 <AnMaster> SimonRC, links to both exist on the befunge page on the esolang wiki
22:27:31 <SimonRC> ok
22:28:09 <ehird> SimonRC: did I mention that AnMaster uses hairy functions like posix_tell or whatever to preallocate stuff
22:28:11 <ehird> and preallocates files
22:28:13 <ehird> for the sake of 1ms
22:28:17 <ehird> :-)
22:28:22 <AnMaster> SimonRC, oh and if you don't want to install boehm-gc: it won't be the default to use boehm-gc in next version. and you can already disable it by:
22:28:24 <AnMaster> cmake -DLEAK_MODE=ON .
22:28:25 <ehird> (while, for example, leaving the hashtable algorithm as non-optimal)
22:28:39 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm working on said hash table
22:29:05 <AnMaster> I have been making it a bit faster already
22:29:14 <AnMaster> ehird, but I do plan a complete rework of that part
22:30:04 <AnMaster> SimonRC, + there are binaries for both ccbi and cfunge available. for ccbi there are win32 and linux32 binaries, while for cfunge there are linux32 and linux64 binaries
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22:38:33 <oerjan> Slereah_: was it this year you invented the Andrei Machine?
22:38:51 <ehird> oerjan: yes
22:39:12 <oerjan> Slereah_: i salute your remarkable ventriloquist powers
22:39:16 <ehird> haha what
22:39:42 <oerjan> anyway i'll fix the wiki category
22:41:38 <oerjan> and is it really unimplemented?
22:44:02 <AnMaster> what is a "Andrei Machine"?
22:44:32 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Andrei_Machine_9000
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22:49:22 <SimonRC> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
22:50:24 <AnMaster> night too
23:01:46 <ehird> So.
23:02:42 * oerjan recalls reading that "So" accidentally means the same in Japanese as in English
23:26:11 <olsner> and in scandinavian, dutch and german :P
23:26:58 <oerjan> that's not accidental, that's probably inherited
23:27:25 <olsner> yeah, so it's more like it means the same in japanese and germanic
23:28:27 <AnMaster> olsner, nop
23:28:30 <AnMaster> "så"
23:28:31 <AnMaster> not "so"
23:28:33 <AnMaster> in Swedish
23:28:50 <ehird> AnMaster: dirty language.
23:28:51 <AnMaster> which belongs to the subgroup scandinavian
23:28:57 <olsner> jajaja, men det r ju samma ord oavsett om det stavas med eller o :P
23:28:57 <AnMaster> ehird, what?
23:29:00 <oerjan> the pronunciation is the same essentially. except in english i guess
23:29:12 <ehird> jajajajjajajajjaa.
23:29:13 <AnMaster> olsner, jo i och för sig
23:29:28 <ehird> oerjan: <subliminal>#ircnomic</subliminal>
23:29:29 * AnMaster slaps ehird with a super-large, super-smelly, decaying digitally-enhanced reinforced IRC-grade trout
23:29:46 * ehird slaps AnMaster with stupid client scripts
23:30:01 <oerjan> ehird: the wiki _still_ wasn't updated last i checked. how shall i know what game i am playing?
23:30:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, well the pronunciation of så and so are quite different
23:30:06 <AnMaster> ehird, not a script
23:30:10 <AnMaster> ehird, just a plain alias
23:30:17 <AnMaster> nothing random
23:30:39 <oerjan> AnMaster: in swedish yes, but sw/no ~ german o
23:30:51 <ehird> <oerjan> ehird: the wiki _still_ wasn't updated last i checked. how shall i know what game i am playing?
23:30:54 <ehird> oerjan: we'll tell you
23:30:55 <ehird> :-P
23:31:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, well I'm no expert of german, not knowing more than maybe 2-3 words in it
23:32:05 <oerjan> well essentially sw/no ~ nearly everyone else's o
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