00:00:29 Is this NURD CENTROL? 00:00:55 Y RLY 00:10:53 YA 00:11:25 O I C 00:15:49 OMG 00:16:20 -!- ehird has set topic: let awesome channel = channel == Channel { topic = "esoteric programming languages", internationalHub = True, logUrl = "http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric" } in filter awesome channels -- [#esoteric]. 00:17:58 -!- oerjan has set topic: let awesome = (==) Channel { topic = "esoteric programming languages", internationalHub = True, logUrl = "http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric" } in filter awesome channels -- [#esoteric]. 00:18:15 -!- ehird has changed nick to aoesunthsoneuah. 00:18:33 oerjan: oh ho HO 00:18:36 are we going to GOLF? 00:19:07 I'd rather FOLG than GOLF 00:19:08 -!- aoesunthsoneuah has set topic: filter (Channel { topic = "esoteric programming languages", internationalHub = True, logUrl = "http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric" } ==) channels -- [#esoteric]. 00:19:31 it's almost, but not entirely unlike GOLF. 00:19:56 FOLG is not to be confused with GLOF or FLOG. 00:32:12 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:36:55 -!- aoesunthsoneuah has changed nick to ehird. 00:37:46 bye for today :-) 00:38:15 LOGF 00:38:24 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:39:10 Slereah-: most of us use log(n), but ok. 00:41:26 Can't we just used A(n,n)? 00:41:39 hm 00:42:46 ooh, pretty: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/AckermannComplexFig2a.jpg 00:42:47 can't we all just get a LOGN? 00:43:06 oerjan: you stole my joke. :( 00:43:34 BWAHAHA *CACK* *WHEEZE* 00:43:37 LOGNUTS 00:43:46 NUTLOGS 00:44:18 Pi calculus hurts mah brain 00:44:31 SNOTLUG 00:44:55 TONSULG 00:45:04 Lugnut! 00:45:07 GLUTONS 00:45:19 GUNLOT 00:48:08 Does pi calculus have some simple, deterministic transformation rules? 00:48:40 Also does it actually have a way to define the system before defining its behaviour. 00:49:10 Everything I found assumed that there was already a bunch of agents connected. 00:55:19 well it's definitely non-deterministic 00:55:45 Oh. 00:56:51 of course there are ways to make systems where there is only one rule that can fire at a time - you can encode lambda calculus in it after all 00:57:28 well one substantial rule 00:58:15 afaiu everything other than sending+receiving a message is reversible 00:58:34 But what happens if you have something like -a.P'|a(y).Q'|a(y).R'? 00:58:42 Who gets mister X? 00:59:12 definitely non-deterministic, iirc 00:59:30 and if i understand your notation 00:59:58 It are "P sends x through a, Q and R are open for business" 01:00:19 and all use the channel name a 01:00:19 Through a as well. 01:00:45 so yes, either Q or R could receive the x 01:01:04 Damn you pi calculus. 01:01:49 I suppose I could just add some arbitrary rule to decide who gets it. 01:02:08 Like the first agent open for business in the list. 01:05:11 What about that other thingy, do I have to define the system separately? 01:05:18 Or can it be expressed with the language itself? 01:06:29 -!- Phenax has joined. 01:07:17 er what? 01:08:01 You know, the little agents and their communication channels. 01:08:17 In everything I found so far, they're just assumed to exist ex nihilo. 01:08:37 you have just one expression really 01:08:52 which then evolves by applying a rule to it 01:09:13 'kay. 01:09:49 so agents will be separated by |'s i assume 01:09:49 Most things in pi calculus focus on what it's supposed to mean, not too much on the rules. 01:10:10 There's that. 01:11:51 Any way to create agents apart from the !P = P|!P ? 01:12:26 that's the only way to get duplication iirc 01:12:43 That's a challenge right there. 01:14:13 or wait... 01:14:29 unlimited duplication that is 01:14:53 What? 01:15:43 a(y).(Q|Q) could be used to get two identical processes, say 01:16:36 That is not very unlimited. 01:16:59 anyway i don't know much more than the basic definitions for pi-calculus 01:17:20 Durned. 01:18:07 Problem is, pi calculus is like the less popular brother of lambda calculus. 01:18:13 It are hard to find good ressources. 01:18:17 yeah 01:21:33 And right now, I'm trying to find a way to fit it in some awesome language. 01:36:20 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 02:20:30 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:48:42 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 03:31:30 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:31:40 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 03:33:35 -!- Slereah- has joined. 03:50:33 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:20:28 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:30:59 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 07:27:21 -!- Judofyr has joined. 07:33:35 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:35:15 -!- olsner has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:32:09 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:03:17 -!- Corun has joined. 09:05:34 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 09:05:41 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:09:51 -!- Iskr has joined. 09:36:07 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 10:03:19 -!- Corun has joined. 10:34:46 -!- jix has joined. 10:37:44 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 11:00:18 -!- Corun has joined. 11:27:55 -!- Tritonio has joined. 12:10:41 -!- timotiis has joined. 12:47:53 -!- ehird has joined. 12:47:58 um, ais523-log-reading: 12:48:07 pikhq has given away your identity on the agora lists.. 12:48:12 if I recall correctly you don't like that 12:48:21 I guess it can be passed off as a name coincidence 12:48:26 it's not like 'Alex Smith' is particularly unique 12:58:30 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:21:34 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:43:38 SIRGEO 13:44:58 ELIOTTHIRD 13:49:43 WHO IS THAT 13:50:01 WHO IS SIRGEO 13:50:47 ELIOTTHIRD 13:50:49 NOTE SPELLING 13:51:15 THIS, MY GOOD SIR, IS THE YEAR FUTURE 13:52:31 http://pixelcomic.net/ 13:53:30 Sgeo: 'ELLIOTT' GOD DAMNIT 13:54:01 I FIGURE THAT OUT EVENTUALLY BUT DIDN"T KNOW IF CORRECTING IT WAS WORTH IT SORRY DIDN"T REALIZE YOU"D APPRECIATE THE CORRECTION 13:54:12 ELLIOTTHIRD 13:55:53 Sgeo: B 14:01:58 WHAT"S B? 14:06:53 A 14:07:32 Sgeo: I just founded InconsisteNomic 14:07:33 1. Rule 2 is false. 14:07:33 2. Rule 1 is false. 14:07:33 3. This is a nomic. 14:07:52 (FUN FACT: not actually inconsistent) 14:08:25 indeed 14:23:13 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 14:29:17 -!- RedDak has joined. 14:31:48 * Sgeo has a final today 14:31:54 SQL and database normalization 14:31:58 zzz 14:44:02 i have that on tuesday! 14:44:03 umm 14:44:04 next one 14:45:31 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 14:46:07 Slereah_: i hear your doing pi! 14:47:10 I swear, I didn't know she was only twelve! 14:47:16 Oh, pi calculus you mean! 14:47:24 well yes 14:47:34 i haven't done a 12-year-old in ages :< 14:48:12 Do you happen to have that tutorial that was posted here some time ago? 14:48:29 about what? 14:48:32 pi? 14:48:34 Pi calculus. 14:48:39 most likely in the logs 14:48:44 do you remember anything about the link? 14:49:00 erm, what's some time ago? 14:49:22 I dunno. Maybe a month or two. 14:49:32 I tried searching the logs with "pi calculus" 14:49:34 then i have no idea 14:49:38 But the google, they do nothing 14:50:24 i found wikipedia's explanation about it sufficient iirc 14:50:57 It has no rules for !P, just an equivalence. 14:51:05 So I'm not too sure how to proceed with it 14:51:17 what's !? 14:51:24 it's ages since i touched pi 14:51:37 !P means that you can has copies of P. 14:51:38 (bsmntbombdood said it was hard so i had to learn it) 14:51:47 !P is equivalent to P|!P 14:51:48 hmmm, i'll look at an page 14:52:08 I probably should get ready to leave at some point 14:52:11 If I miss my bus.. 14:58:04 hmm 14:58:11 indeed, it doesn't seem to really explain ! 14:58:36 I just have no idea how to do something to compute it. 14:59:20 !x(y).P≡x(y).P | !x(y).P. 14:59:30 !x(y).P == x(y).P | !x(y).P. 15:00:04 !! isn't there at all 15:00:05 but 15:00:42 it seems just that when you have the head !x(y) for some process, it doesn't ever get to the tail, just gives x(y) forever 15:01:23 and because you can't have ! as a value, it seems to me like P could just as well be 0 15:01:24 How do you stop the recursion at some point then? 15:01:33 umm, don't send it anything? 15:01:57 it will just receive as long as someone is sending something 15:02:02 i mean, if i get this right 15:02:18 i'm basing this on !x(y).P == x(y).P | !x(y).P 15:02:25 ohoh 15:02:29 rrrright 15:02:32 i misread that 15:02:37 well 15:02:38 okay 15:02:53 !x(y) 15:03:02 when something is sent to a process with that as a tail 15:03:32 it is a special receiver that, when sent something to, continues to its tail, but makes a copy of itself before that 15:03:38 pi calculus sux 15:03:38 :P 15:03:44 so basically, you do the duplication only when something is sent to you 15:03:46 get it? 15:03:48 ehird: how so? 15:03:55 oklofok: i dunno 15:04:00 I think 15:04:00 alright 15:04:25 Though I'd like to find something with the set of rules well explained 15:06:12 well yeah, i'm not sure what exactly happens to names when you duplicate etc 15:06:29 i assume the new copy gets its own namespace, because if not, it would make noesnse 15:06:31 *no sense 15:06:58 Is the big book of pie worth buying? 15:07:05 'cause it's $40 15:07:28 what's hat :D 15:07:33 (sic) 15:07:57 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0521658691/portlandpatternrA/ 15:08:50 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:09:23 looks very buy-worthy 15:10:28 i need to leave, nightwatchmanship starts in a few hours 15:10:33 bye. 15:10:40 NOT SO FAST! 15:11:55 there's so much great stuff on amazon 15:12:17 if only i was FUCKING RICH 15:17:49 Be back later 15:18:20 oklofok : Try emule! 15:18:27 Lots of free books.. 15:20:51 emule? link 15:21:08 It's a software 15:21:13 ou can google it 15:21:25 your mother can google it 15:35:04 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:55:58 NOW i leave 15:56:05 -!- oklofok has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 16:04:16 -!- Tritonio has joined. 16:09:13 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:09:31 -!- RedDak has joined. 16:20:00 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:29:23 -!- RedDak has joined. 16:43:14 -!- dak has joined. 16:48:17 -!- dak has quit (Client Quit). 16:48:32 -!- dak has joined. 16:51:13 -!- Deewiant has quit ("Viivan loppu."). 17:02:34 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:02:57 -!- Deewiant has joined. 17:17:30 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:48:46 -!- dak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:53:09 -!- ehird has joined. 18:53:54 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit). 18:57:38 -!- ehird has joined. 18:57:42 I am trying out stumpwm, indeed. 18:58:07 oh no 19:00:15 lament: oh no what 19:00:18 I'm back? 19:00:43 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:01:38 oh no stumpwm 19:01:50 lament: what's wrong with stumpwm 19:01:56 oh, I guess you don't like emacs 19:01:57 so it would follow 19:01:59 i dunno, never tried it 19:07:23 i tried to learn pi calculus 19:07:24 i failed 19:11:40 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:11:51 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 19:12:08 -!- jix has joined. 19:12:16 -!- ehird has quit ("Lost terminal"). 19:20:27 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Connection timed out). 19:27:12 -!- RedDak has joined. 19:28:35 -!- ehird has joined. 19:47:29 -!- olsner has joined. 19:47:56 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:55:40 -!- Deewiant has quit ("= Viivan loppu."). 19:56:14 -!- Deewiant has joined. 20:35:29 Luciano Bello discovered that the random number generator in Debian's openssl package is predictable. This is caused by an incorrect Debian-specific change to the openssl package (CVE-2008-0166). As a result, cryptographic key material may be guessable. 20:35:31 LULZ 20:47:12 -!- Sgeo[College] has joined. 20:53:39 -!- timotiis_ has joined. 20:56:24 ehird: the patch in question: http://svn.debian.org/viewsvn/pkg-openssl/openssl/trunk/rand/md_rand.c?rev=141&view=diff&r1=141&r2=140&p1=openssl/trunk/rand/md_rand.c&p2=/openssl/trunk/rand/md_rand.c 21:06:25 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:09:10 -!- timotiis_ has changed nick to timotiis. 21:10:32 -!- Tritonio has joined. 22:03:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:20:36 -!- Iskr has quit ("Leaving"). 22:32:48 -!- oklopol has joined. 22:37:45 -!- Sgeo[College] has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 23:03:49 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:55:31 I feel like I'm right on the cusp of figuring out a way to arrange abstractions such that code written with no concurrency in mind could be massively concurrent, but every time I get closer to the solution I find a problem, the fix to which causes things to become serial again :( 23:56:10 Zooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom 23:56:16 GregorR: You want to go purely functional for that. 23:56:19 It's the only way to have it reliable. 23:56:32 Well, that's the OBVIOUS solution. 23:56:36 I don't want the obvious solution :P 23:56:54 I want the "average moron X who doesn't know what a monad is could write concurrent code" solution. 23:57:13 GregorR: Maintaining a system like that sounds scary 23:57:40 I don't think I'm going to come to a clean solution, so this isn't going to go anywhere, but it's an interesting thought experiment :P 23:58:18 Unfortunately, I keep ending up needing to maintain data dependencies in such a way that either everything turns serial or marking dependencies reduces to the halting problem. 23:58:48 GregorR: I am afraid I think it's impossible 23:59:10 I don't think it is either. 23:59:12 -!- Corun has joined. 23:59:18 But that doesn't make it any less interesting of a thought experiment. 23:59:28 I think about the halting problem allll day