00:00:04 By which I do not mean anything "Numix" has likely referred to in the past. 00:01:02 ihope: Is that good or bad 00:01:39 Make that "nomic with root access". 00:02:57 ihope: Huh? I don't get it. 00:03:02 What are you trying to say 00:03:26 I want a nomic with root access to some (virtual, I hope) machine? 00:04:05 virtual ihope - the game 00:04:17 ihope: Sure, that's easy enough. 00:04:23 Step 1. Take smallnomic 00:04:26 I would be interested in that. 00:04:28 Step 2. Make a virtual machine 00:04:33 Step 3. Run smallnomic on that machine as root. 00:04:40 Then you can just build a little shell into smallnomic. 00:06:26 Telnet access to a bashy thing and all that would be nice. 00:06:54 -!- timotiis has quit (Connection timed out). 00:07:58 ihope: Then it's not a nomic. 00:08:02 Then it's just free-for-all! 00:08:18 Not telnet access to a root account, surely. 00:10:13 ihope: What, exactly, do you want? 00:10:21 A nomic played by a regular user account, that proposals are scripts run as root? 00:10:35 Sounds right. 00:11:15 ihope: So, like, you have 00:11:19 /usr/nomic/bin/propose 00:11:23 and you might do 00:11:28 Yeah. 00:11:30 $ propose 00:11:39 Title: Rename 'propose' to 'monkey'. 00:11:44 Filename: foo.py 00:11:46 Proposed. 00:11:46 $ 00:11:51 $ cat foo.py 00:11:56 #!/usr/bin/env python 00:12:03 # stuff to move 'propose' to 'monkey' 00:12:10 And presumably, propose copies the proposal to a safe place. 00:12:10 ihope: and /usr/nomic/* is root-editable-only? 00:12:15 yes 00:12:23 * ihope nods 00:12:27 ihope: Well, it's interesting. 00:12:32 You'd need to forbid network connections 00:12:42 And somehow still hook into it for telnet 00:12:45 Would you? 00:13:02 ihope: Yes, because otherwise seriously illegal things could happen 00:13:05 And you'd be responsible 00:13:24 Stick a disclaimer on it, then. :-P 00:13:31 ihope: Legally meaningless for this. 00:13:40 If someone downloads something illegal with it, you're fucked. 00:14:04 Just like if I download something illegal via Comcast, Comcast is... in trouble? 00:14:55 ihope: that's different 00:15:07 but if they refuse to terminate your account it's possible that they are in trouble 00:15:08 but still 00:15:10 an isp is not a nomic 00:15:12 My thought was to firewall all ports except 23, 8080, and the Private Ports. 00:15:20 Though obviously, that wouldn't help here. 00:15:50 ihope: Just run it in a VM and don't give it a network device. 00:15:50 Why can't our nomic have the same legal status as an ISP? 00:15:58 Then hook into that VM and run a telnetd outside it. 00:16:02 That works, I guess. 00:16:02 ihope: Because we're not an ISP 00:16:29 Allow incoming connections on ports 23, maybe 80, probably 8080, possibly 6667, and nothing outgoing? 00:16:31 Besides, it's not like there'd be many good uses for a networky thingy. 00:16:37 ihope: Well, here's my idea. 00:16:57 [ VM - no networking AT ALL ] <-- [ machine it's running on, is running a telnetd hooking directly into the VM ] 00:17:02 you connect to this one -----------------------------------^ 00:17:08 which gets to ^ this one 00:18:41 * ihope nods 00:19:42 Maybe we should just find a hosting service in Zimbabwe. :-P 00:20:37 :P 00:21:35 ihope: smallnomic will be fun, because people will have proposals to add crazy things like refactoring tools 00:21:36 :-P 00:23:06 :-) 00:23:20 Now, don't those who host virtual private servers have immunity like an ISP? 00:23:33 ihope: Nope. And their TOS specifically say you're responsible. 00:23:42 But they're responsible too. 00:23:44 So it's just a guard, really. 00:23:48 It's complicated! 00:23:54 Interesting. 00:24:15 So the law is silly, then. 00:24:37 aren't you in different countries? 00:24:40 ihope: What else is new? 00:24:44 oklopol: Going by US law here. 00:24:50 Since it's really all that matters when the servers are in the US. 00:24:51 ehird: where are you? 00:25:02 ehird: right, right 00:25:05 ihope: the land of rain and crappy techno and indie bands 00:25:06 (england) 00:25:15 We should find a country where the laws aren't silly. 00:25:22 *found 00:25:32 If we can't find it, we'll have to found it. 00:25:41 unless we already found it. 00:25:47 ihope: esoia 00:25:56 with the states: 00:26:03 Okoland 00:26:09 ehirdpamatron 00:26:14 and 00:26:17 Ihopethisisagoodname 00:26:24 We just have to find an uninhabited thingy that we can claim. Or anything else we can buy. 00:26:31 government: ihope, oklopol, me, gregorr, ais523 00:26:33 , lament 00:26:39 honorary government: sgeo 00:26:50 oh you won't like me with authoritah. 00:26:54 Maybe we should host our stuff with HavenCo. :-P 00:27:04 Why am I only honorary? 00:27:13 thou shalt be knighted 00:27:14 Sgeo: i'm scared you'll break things 00:27:22 but hopefully fake power will keep you happ 00:27:31 psoxia 00:27:43 hahaha 00:27:53 Kingdom of Esco!! 00:27:57 (psst, Slereah_, time to make a joke) 00:28:09 * Sgeo wants real power 00:28:10 Let's give Agora power over something. :-P 00:28:52 well, the most logical choice would be to let me govern all. 00:29:00 Claro. 00:29:28 omgz idea 00:29:31 Haskellnomic 00:29:37 proposals must be type safe! 00:31:22 First-order-logicnomic. Propose something be done if and only if a certain Turing machine halts. 00:32:26 ihope: Very funny :P 00:33:01 AInomic. 00:33:02 ihope: Any opinions on type-safe-haskellnomic? 00:33:05 Er. 00:33:13 ehird: probably. 00:33:32 AInomic. "I propose that ehird be awarded a few points." 00:33:43 heh 00:34:22 "If this is an apple, every player who voted FOR this proposal gets 10 points. Otherwise, every player who voted AGAINST this proposal gets 10 points." 00:34:33 comgimme some thread titles 00:34:40 err 00:37:25 ehird, do you have a good way of hosting servery stuff? 00:37:35 ihope: Yes. 00:37:37 I have a slicehost. 00:37:38 It is a VPS. 00:37:41 Cool. 00:37:44 I have root. I can do whatever I want with it. 00:37:55 - Within the law, of course. 00:37:59 US law, specifically. 01:20:51 -!- SimonRC has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:21:36 Bye for today. :-) 01:22:23 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:43:13 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:48:14 -!- lament has joined. 01:57:28 -!- SimonRC has joined. 01:58:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:15:33 -!- Tritonio has quit (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:15:33 -!- cmeme has quit (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:16:13 -!- Tritonio has joined. 02:16:13 -!- cmeme has joined. 02:32:38 yeah, bye -> 03:12:56 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:13:06 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:45:58 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:47:50 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 05:23:21 -!- boily has joined. 05:27:03 -!- boily has quit ("Schtroumpf!"). 05:32:13 -!- Slereah- has joined. 05:50:46 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:04:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:28:55 OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 06:28:58 I HAS C-P-U 06:29:04 IT QUAD CORE AND SO CAN'T YOU 06:29:09 IT SO FAST AND YOURS SO SLOW 06:29:19 LOOK IT PROCESS WATCH IT GO 07:01:16 quad core sounds pretty esoteric 07:34:21 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:34:50 -!- puzzlet has quit (Client Quit). 07:36:32 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:27:41 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:27:46 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:37:04 -!- GregorR has joined. 08:37:35 When I get my new system up and running, my old system will need to be repurposed. 08:37:59 Anybody have a suggestion for an experimental/weird/esoteric OS for it? 08:39:48 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:40:11 -!- Slereah- has joined. 09:14:29 * oklopol thought everyone had quad core 09:14:46 except me of course, even this one is too fast for me 09:45:45 GregorR: try coding an OS in BF 09:45:52 s/BF/befunge/g 09:46:01 or having Befunge/Linux 09:47:25 What's the definition of an OS exactly? 09:48:24 that when you press buttons it does smth 09:49:25 Does smth means "receive bacon"? 09:50:30 i had a dream where my ex gf was begging for sex, and i said "yes", but my current one, who had just done a crazy killing spree with me, as we were trying to escape from the russians, happened to be alive still, to my surprise, so i went to tell my ex there was no way 09:50:57 and then i didn't even fuck her :| 09:51:27 Slereah-: it is a something 09:52:14 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Teletubbies_episodes <<< i. need. to. see. now. 09:53:03 * Slereah- pushes Buthan 09:55:12 13 seasons? 09:55:12 if anyone knows where to find those, do inform me, i'm dying to have a tt marathon 09:55:19 so it would seem :| 09:55:24 like... wtf xD 09:55:26 oklopol : Have you tried the internet? 09:55:33 i've tried torrentz.com 10:35:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Unisex."). 10:48:18 -!- Iskr has joined. 11:02:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:06:33 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 11:06:55 -!- Tritonio has joined. 11:15:45 -!- Corun has joined. 13:08:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:19:34 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 13:19:34 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:36:29 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:54:00 -!- ehird has joined. 13:55:06 so. 13:55:06 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:55:09 -!- ehird has joined. 13:55:13 So. 13:55:22 So. 14:05:06 heh 14:05:09 nomic.st is available 14:19:57 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:24:09 -!- jix has joined. 14:31:32 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:44:44 -!- timotiis has joined. 14:59:28 ehird: AnMaster: C-INTERCAL development snapshot is now up at http://eso-std.org/darcs/c-intercal 15:00:03 nice 15:00:14 ais523: here's how to advertise it 15:00:18 $ darcs get http://eso-std.org/darcs/c-intercal 15:00:28 ehird: have done already 15:00:41 I've already applied fixes for the bugs that #esoteric denizens have reported 15:00:45 as well as several others 15:00:58 ais523: advertised it where? 15:01:03 alt.lang.intercal 15:01:10 there are a couple of new features there too 15:01:12 ok, that's cool :-) 15:01:17 i expect about 3 people will use it 15:01:17 so the provisial version number is 1.29 15:01:24 s/provisial/provisional/ 15:01:44 I wasn't sure whether to increment the major or minor version number, so in true INTERCAL style I incremented both 15:01:56 ais523: your announcement would be funnier without this: 15:01:58 'Come to think of it, INTERCAL should not be used in production 15:01:58 code anyway.' 15:02:13 ehird: may as well cover myself legally 15:02:17 :-) 15:02:37 I don't know how many people would try to use INTERCAL in production, but there are sufficiently many idiots on the Internet that it's worth making sure 15:02:51 ais523: 'i tried intercal .. reminded me of cobol! no digg' 15:03:06 ehird: ever seen VHDL? 15:03:09 'how can anyone read this crap??? stupid.. ruby is far better' (+3423 diggs) 15:03:20 it reminds me a bit of INTERCAL, but it isn't that bad as a language 15:03:38 ais523: PLEASE DO INCREMENT THE VARIABLE COBOL BY ONE GIVING THE VARIABLE COBOL 15:03:43 it's almost an esolang, though, even though it's used for a lot of important programs 15:03:49 ehird: ever seen "Hello, world!" in VHDL? 15:03:53 it's worse than in Java 15:03:59 ais523: well, it's a hardware description language 15:04:02 so ... suprise? 15:04:05 not really 15:04:13 it's more the amount of verbiage that's needed to do anything 15:04:22 I think it's last on anagolf, or if not last at least near the bottom 15:04:35 ais523: anyway, i've been working on smallnomic 15:04:44 not in the actual editing sense, but in the 'let's play with shiny seaside' sense 15:06:11 http://ghdl.free.fr/ghdl/The-hello-word-program.html 15:06:30 also, VHDL has an interesting control flow 15:06:40 it's non-local but can have bits in sequence, just like INTERCAL 15:07:33 really, they should have written a program to flash an LED, that's the hardware equivalent of hello, world 15:10:30 ais523: ye 15:10:30 s 15:13:40 ais523: so, smallnomic. 15:13:41 it will be awesome. 15:14:12 depends on how many people are involved 15:14:24 ehird: AnMaster: C-INTERCAL development snapshot is now up at http://eso-std.org/darcs/c-intercal 15:14:26 very nice 15:14:39 however *goes to install darcs again* 15:15:24 ais523: a few, i imagine 15:15:37 i imagine one or two squeakers/seasiders and one or two nomicers 15:15:45 so, perlnomic kind of activity 15:15:51 maybe a bit more, since this'll be easier to do 15:15:56 (you can just quickly amend a method) 15:16:05 ehird: (if enough people vote on it) 15:16:54 ais523: obviously it'll be based on the number of total users... 15:17:11 well, of course 15:17:18 I kind of like the PerlNomic system, actually 15:19:31 yes = only way to allow a proposal through, no = disallow it, prevent amending, and punish the submitter, abstain = disallow the proposal but allow amendments and withdrawals without penalty 15:19:39 but it should really be called something other than 'abstain' 15:21:14 ais523: heh, seaside has fancy lightboxes built-in 15:21:17 if you add the SULibrary 15:21:19 then you can do 15:21:25 self lightbox: aWATask 15:21:31 lightbox? 15:22:23 ais523: the fade-the-screen-to-grey-and-overlay-a-box-on-top-of-it 15:22:26 mostly annoying, sometimes useful 15:22:30 like gksudo 15:22:38 ais523: yes, but for the web 15:22:51 * ais523 imagines a web-based VPN for a moment 15:22:54 ais523: the most common usage is for image on-clicks 15:22:56 which is kinda annoying 15:22:57 see: http://www.huddletogether.com/projects/lightbox/ 15:23:09 but i can see it useful in smallnomic 15:23:09 for e.g. 15:23:13 when you do 'self inform: 'foo'' in seaside 15:23:17 it replaces the whole current component 15:23:21 and then an OK brings it back 15:23:23 which is kinda ugly 15:23:31 a lightbox could just grey out the smallnomic screen and show the confirmation in the middle 15:23:35 then go back after an OK 15:23:45 wouldn't you have to aim it at something other than self, in that case? 15:24:19 ais523: yes 15:24:28 WAComponent>>lightbox: expects a WATask 15:24:37 so we'll have to do some monkeypatching to add a lightbox for blocks 15:25:14 there should really just be a generic inform message that always aims at the same global-like object, sort of like alert in JavaScript 15:27:12 ais523: indeed 15:27:15 we can probably do that 15:27:18 remember? you can change anything in smalltalk 15:27:27 s/smalltalk/smallnomic/ 15:27:27 & brutally modifying other package's methods is good practice :-) 15:27:28 fun! 15:27:34 ais523: latter only because the first 15:27:46 ehird: there should be a message you can send to an object to tell it to change its own methods 15:27:55 actually, knowing Smalltalk, there probably is 15:29:06 ais523: there is, i believe 15:29:17 ais523: this is the language where 'true become: false' doesn't throw an error 15:29:23 (unless crashing is throwing an error i guess) 15:29:33 need that necessarily crash? 15:29:46 ais523: yes, since an awful lot of things use boolean values 15:29:47 if you've written your code carefully enough, it should be able to cope with true becoming false 15:29:58 ais523: if you're joking, you're being very funny 15:30:02 if not, i want to kill you 15:30:03 :-P 15:30:14 I was joking, pretty much 15:30:25 * ais523 wonders if you could compile Forte into Smalltalk 15:32:42 ais523: no, because the lower layers kinda depend on numbers 15:33:17 ehird: are those lower layers unavoidably needed in Smalltalk? Is it possible to write a program without them, or are they a necessary part of the language? 15:34:06 ais523: you could write a program without them but you'd end up reimplementing them or you wouldn't be able to write anything useful 15:34:17 ais523: what you could do - 15:34:20 ForteInteger 15:34:22 which just holds an integer 15:34:23 and then 15:34:28 aForteInteger become: anotherForteInteger 15:34:29 yes, I was thinking along those lines 15:34:31 ais523: then the integers themselves are okay 15:34:34 but the forte integers change 15:34:35 that would work fine 15:34:37 wouldn't you need an infinite number of them? 15:34:50 ais523: no, just create them when you need them 15:34:54 and cache them in a dictionary 15:35:10 OK, so it would be similar to interpreting Forte 15:35:12 'course then you could just change the value in the dictionary 15:35:13 but hey. 15:35:50 ais523: one thing about smalltalk i'm finding is that it's terribly fun 15:35:56 there's no 'best practices' malarky for the most part 15:36:05 if you wanna change some behaviour in a framework to how you like it, go ahead 15:36:17 Monticello recognizes your monkey patches and even version controls them 15:36:19 it's all great 15:36:26 Smalltalk really needs to be better known 15:36:35 I may even learn it at some point 15:36:42 I know vaguely how it works, but have never written in it 15:38:16 ais523: this is my fisrt real smalltalk app! 15:38:22 i'm lovin' it 15:38:41 i never really liked hand-holding frameworks, but half of the html in these pages is completely generated by seaside 15:38:43 and it's lovely 15:39:41 ais523: yay! lightboxBlock: works 15:39:48 self lightboxBlock: [:e | e confirm: 'really?'] 15:40:11 -!- Iskr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:43:15 -!- Iskr has joined. 15:52:26 ais523: one of the hardest things will be duplicating the smalltalk editor in html :-P 15:52:32 first thing i'll do is make the tab key insert a real tab 15:52:38 (squeak actually uses real-live tabs for indentation!) 15:52:50 (this is all nice and fine because of its closed-world view, it can be so idealistic) 15:52:55 and then make tabs display as 4 spaces 15:54:03 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:54:22 ais523: 15:54:22 RandalSchwartz: all editors suck 15:54:22 s/editors/software/ 15:54:22 s/suck/sucks/ 15:54:22 s/software// 15:54:22 s/all/everything/ 15:59:30 ais523: you'll like this, 15:59:32 smalltalk has no statements 15:59:39 2 + (x := 3). "5" 15:59:41 x. "3" 15:59:52 yes, I like that 16:00:04 although assignment's an expression in many langs with separate expressions and statements 16:00:50 ais523: and, of course, smalltalk has no syntax for classes or anything 16:00:52 :-P 16:00:58 (even the class creation is an >expression<) 16:01:02 you just send a message: 16:01:14 ehird: yes, I really do like that sort of style 16:01:17 Class>>subclass:instanceVariableNames:classVariableNames:poolDictionaries:category: 16:01:17 etc 16:01:20 Smalltalk is elegant in the ais523 sense 16:01:50 ais523: and the ehird sense 16:02:03 so it's doubly elegant 16:02:14 yep 16:02:27 -!- Iskr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:03:23 -!- Iskr has joined. 16:16:23 ais523: seaside is insufferably fun 16:21:08 ais523: ok, some people in #seaside are dumb 16:21:12 ssastre> so what is you question then? 16:21:12 ssastre: how do i, given a regular form with a submit button, change the button so that when the browser can do javascript, it runs my ajax updator and doesn't submit 16:21:13 but if we don't support JS, we just do it like it was before 16:21:16 are you sure that is possible at all? 16:21:30 that was like ... the second article anyone wrote after ajax was popularized :\ 16:21:41 it is possible, obviously 16:21:50 the way you do it is to write the button as a normal submit 16:22:01 and use JavaScript to change it to an AJAXy button once you load 16:22:11 ais523: no 16:22:13 that's not how you do it 16:22:27
...
16:22:31 that's how you do it 16:22:39 that's another way to do it 16:22:40 (return false; = don't submit this) 16:22:45 ais523: that's the most common, robust wya 16:22:46 *way 16:29:09 looks slightly ugly to me, but I can understand how that's robust and works 16:29:24 ais523: that's why you write a js that sets it based on the form id 16:29:26 non-obtrusive JS 16:29:27 :-) 16:29:47 the only thing that could break it that I can think of would be a browser that supported a scripting language, but didn't support JavaScript, and how many of those are there? 16:33:48 ais523: should I make the counter shared across users? 16:33:49 :P 16:34:00 ehird: why? 16:34:07 it doesn't do anything useful anyway 16:34:38 ais523: just to toy around with updating it via ajax 16:35:02 ehird: what about race conditions? 16:36:43 ais523: hey, my 'the most pointless website ever' didn't care about 'em 16:36:47 but then it didn't support decrements 16:37:00 and wasn't the counter per-user? 16:37:05 ais523: no.. 16:37:07 it was global 16:37:12 although you had per-user totals 16:37:14 that's why it had highscores, and the count got above 2 million 16:42:29 ais523: hm 16:42:37 i'm going to implement a SNComponent 16:42:47 ais523: which requires things like a 'component slug' 16:42:55 ais523: so if it's 'bite', you get /nomic/bite?_k=asdasd 16:43:01 ais523: so that all entry points have unique urls 16:43:06 ok 16:43:23 ais523: good idea? 16:43:27 or should i KISS 16:43:34 no idea 16:45:19 ais523: hm 16:45:25 should I make the slug part of the subclassing call? 16:45:42 SNComponent subClass: #SNFoo instanceVariblahblah: ...; slug: 'bite'; ... 16:47:53 ais523: no opinions? 16:47:58 no 16:48:02 I don't know Seaside 16:48:15 and I'm not that interested in making original design decisions for smallnomic 16:50:02 ais523: bah ;) 16:53:49 ais523: i think i'll map classnames to urls 16:54:00 SNScrapCounter inside Nomic-Scraps-Seaside: 16:54:05 /scraps/scrap-counter 16:54:11 you can just ignore me if you want 16:54:11 :P 16:54:25 I am, more or less, until you talk about something I'm more interested in 16:54:43 ais523: how voting should work :P 16:55:00 I like the PerlNomic system 16:55:07 but it's a little hard to explain to new users 17:00:37 ais523: what is 17:00:38 it 17:01:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:02:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:06:59 BTW, anyone here tried out the development C-INTERCAL snapshot yet? 17:07:19 nope 17:07:20 about to 17:07:24 I know that it doesn't build first-time on Solaris (although it's always required a bit of manual hacking to work with Solaris lex) 17:07:30 but it should be OK on most other platforms 17:07:38 that I know of 17:07:40 ais523: i don't think ANYBODY here uses solaris :-) 17:07:51 ehird: I do sometimes when I don't have my laptop on me 17:07:57 it's a choice between that or Windows 17:08:00 ais523: why are your short descriptions one words? 17:08:02 you can do 17:08:04 Initial commit. 17:08:07 Add the floobdoob again. 17:08:07 ehird: I did after a while 17:08:13 but I was just getting used to darcs 17:08:16 ais523: alright 17:08:23 it's just convention to make them brief full sentences 17:08:43 ehird: convention? Why did you expect C-INTERCAL to follow convention? 17:09:12 ais523: :-) 17:09:26 you're the one who said that eso compilers don't have to be eso 17:09:33 ais523: 17:09:33 mv .c temp/lexer.c 17:09:34 mv: cannot stat `.c': No such file or directory 17:09:46 where? 17:10:28 gcc -O2 -W -Wall -g -O2 -DICKINCLUDEDIR=\"/usr/local/include/ick-1.29\" -DICKDATADIR=\"/usr/local/share/ick-1.29\" -DICKBINDIR=\"/usr/local/bin\" -DICKLIBDIR=\"/usr/local/lib\" -DYYDEBUG -DICK_HAVE_STDINT_H=1 -I./src -I./temp -c -o temp/parser.o temp/parser.c 17:10:28 y: src/lexer.l 17:10:28 rm -f temp/lexer.c 17:10:28 mv .c temp/lexer.c 17:10:29 mv: cannot stat `.c': No such file or directory 17:10:31 make: *** [temp/lexer.c] Error 1 17:11:22 something went wrong with the configure, then 17:11:28 it's meant to move @LEX_OUTPUT_ROOT@.c 17:11:37 but for some reason it didn't determine what the output root was 17:11:48 try reconfiguring; what does it say about lex? 17:11:59 checking for flex... no 17:11:59 checking for lex... no 17:12:06 ais523: prey tell why you don't die when they're not there? 17:13:15 ehird: oh, it's to do with the prebuilt versions 17:13:28 they're there specifically for DJGPP systems without lex 17:13:41 ais523: well .. still 17:13:43 but it seems they're interfering with the build from a dev snapshot 17:14:06 I'll have to look into this 17:14:40 in the meantime, install lex and reconfigure and it should work 17:14:47 ick works 17:15:08 ehird: how did it end up working if the compile failed? 17:15:15 are you using an old version of ick? 17:15:23 maybe I should add a display-version command 17:15:59 ais523: i installed flex 17:16:41 actually, it's not the prebuilt versions interfering 17:16:48 it's worse than that 17:17:04 it seems that autoconf replaces the lex command with a null string if lex isn't found 17:17:14 and the lex line isn't a syntax error... 17:17:30 I should just get it to bail out if it can't find a version of lex, somehow 17:21:15 * ais523 downloads the autoconf documentation 17:21:28 up to now, I'd been working on a really old version of the documentation, 'twould be nice to read a newer copy 17:30:39 A=4 17:30:50 ehird: context? 17:31:05 context={#A: 4} 17:31:42 why did you say a random Smalltalk expression, then? 17:32:36 ais523: that was not a random smalltalk expression 17:32:47 why did you say that smalltalk expression, then? 17:36:55 ais523: It is not a smalltalk expression 17:37:01 what lang is it, then? 17:37:16 ais523: it's not 17:37:27 (it's not even a valid smalltalk expr, fwiw) 17:37:35 (it's :=... or right arrow <-, in ASCII as _) 17:37:39 so what is A, then, and why is it 4? 17:37:48 and I assumed = was comparison because assignment was := 17:38:13 ah yes 17:38:15 it is comparison 17:38:20 but context={#A: 4} 17:38:25 implies that i was assigning to a variable 17:38:33 now continue prompting me with 'expr?' 17:38:39 expr? 17:39:09 'context?' was one 17:39:11 ais523: not literally 17:39:24 OK, but I have to have some idea of what you want me to do 17:40:57 ais523: hmm, ask me 'context?' again 17:41:01 context? 17:41:01 my previous one was wrong 17:41:10 this is as bad as #irp 17:41:18 {a: 4, context: {a: 4, context: {a:4, context: [stack overflow] 17:41:24 Reset. 17:41:31 stack? 17:42:06 LinkedList(Context>>viewStack, Empty) 17:42:20 nomic? 17:42:46 a Nomic 17:43:03 LinkedList? 17:43:41 LinkedList 17:43:49 true? 17:44:25 true 'dat 17:44:43 but I thought you'd caused true to become false earlier 17:45:00 true 'dat 17:45:14 'dat? 17:45:23 [syntax error] 17:45:25 Reset. 17:45:31 dat? 17:46:10 recursive structure of Great Meaning 17:46:17 recursive? 17:46:53 recursive 17:47:04 literal LOL, again... 17:47:11 twisty little passageway? 17:47:34 a maze of them, all alike 17:47:59 super(twisty little passageway)? 17:48:35 [syntax error, expecting message send, found '('] 17:48:37 Reset. 17:48:46 version? 17:49:09 2i 17:49:18 IRP? 17:49:26 -!- timotiis has joined. 17:49:49 stupid shit that I would never participate in 17:50:09 well, that little conversation looked like a strange mix of Smalltalk and IRP to me 17:50:19 as opposed to Smalltalk itself, that's an ugly concept 17:50:25 [humour error] 17:50:27 Reset. 17:50:36 * ais523 got the humour 17:50:42 ais523: you haven't got the cake yet 17:50:43 but was getting bored of the thread 17:50:45 oops, what did I just say! 17:50:59 you still have a ton of objects you can send messages to 17:51:02 cake: areYouALie? 17:51:20 (is that the right syntax?) 17:51:21 [syntax error] 17:51:24 Reset. 17:51:30 ais523: maybe try just 'cake' 17:51:34 OK 17:51:35 cake? 17:51:38 a NiceTry 17:51:58 How do you send a message and get a result back from it? 17:52:03 I can't remember the syntax 17:52:08 ais523: it's invisible 17:52:17 'thing message' 17:52:19 'thing message: arg' 17:52:22 ah 17:52:25 'thing message: arg foo: arg' (message is actually message:foo:) 17:52:33 cake becomes: delicious. 17:52:49 [invalid 'a become: a'] 17:52:50 Reset. 17:52:57 ais523: try the passageways and the nomic object 17:53:06 nomic becomes: delicious. 17:53:23 ais523: become: actually 17:53:25 but: 17:53:31 [Nomics are already delicious. Duh.] 17:53:32 Reset. 17:53:39 (try 'nomic players') 17:53:44 nomic players? 17:54:04 a Set (YOU) 17:54:12 [error: wrong result] 17:54:13 a Set (YOU, cake) 17:55:12 [ais523 ping error] 17:55:12 cake proposeContract: contractid1 players: {me, cake} text: "conspire against ehird"? 17:55:53 [NiceTrys do not respond to proposeContract.] 17:55:59 [And "" is a comment.] 17:56:05 what's a string? 17:56:08 single quotes? 17:56:10 [Single quotes.] 17:56:21 [Also, {me, cake} should be Set with: me with: cake] 17:56:31 the same arg twice? 17:56:32 [And maybe you should change the id into a title.] 17:56:35 that's kind-of clever, too 17:56:38 ais523: yes, it actually sends with:with: 17:56:51 with: a ^(self new) add: a; yourself 17:56:56 with: a with: b ^(self new) add: a; add: b; yourself 17:56:56 etc 17:56:56 to a Set object, which is responsible for creating sets 17:57:00 yes 17:57:08 you can't do a 'variadic with' though 17:57:18 Smalltalk ought to be classified as an esolang 17:57:22 I don't care if it's used seriously 17:57:30 it's just far too elegant to be a mainstream language 17:57:46 ais523: truth 17:57:55 but it's elegant *and* useful! 17:57:56 perfect 17:58:02 ais523: thankfully, though, it's not mainstream ;) 17:58:22 "mainstream" as in "not esoteric" 17:58:32 but if it did become truly popular, what do you think would happen? 17:58:38 Microsoft Visual Smalltalk.NET? 17:58:50 * ais523 shudders at the thought of Smalltalk bindings to the Win32 API 17:58:56 ais523: they exist, I believe 17:58:58 but abstracted 17:59:00 VW Smalltalk 17:59:02 oh god 17:59:14 well, not really 17:59:15 AnMaster: what 18:00:11 I mean, imagine sending a Smalltalk message to CreateProcessEx 18:00:21 one other thing, what happens if you write the args in a different order? 18:00:24 ais523: OK, that's evil 18:00:29 and... 18:00:30 it fails 18:00:42 thing part1: x part2: y part3: z 18:00:44 is really sugar for 18:00:55 send #part1:part2:part3: to thing, with args #(x y z) 18:00:57 I was wondering if they were reordered if there wasn't a match otherwise 18:01:03 well except that you can't literally put it in #() 18:01:06 but that is the basic idea 18:01:08 ais523: nope 18:01:16 the keyword arguments are just sugar, really 18:01:18 but it's simpler this way 18:01:19 ehird, " Microsoft Visual Smalltalk.NET?" 18:01:21 about that 18:01:29 well, it doesn't exist AFAIK 18:01:34 * ais523 googles it just to make sure 18:02:12 yeah but the idea... -_ 18:02:14 -_- 18:02:43 oh dear 18:02:44 http://www.smallscript.org/ 18:03:00 their language S# appears to be an extension of Smalltalk over .NET 18:03:05 ais523, well there is FORTH for .NET too 18:03:09 ais523: oh dear 18:03:27 "Smallscript provides a valuable development environment on the .NET Framework", said John Montgomery, group product manager for the Microsoft.NET Framework at Microsoft Corp. "Microsoft is excited to be working with Smallscript Corp. to offer developers of Smalltalk and other languages a productive, reliable, easy-to-use platform for building and deploying cross-language applications and Web services." 18:03:33 " Site last updated: April 8, 2004" 18:03:33 http://www.gemstone.com/ this is a better smalltalk company ;) 18:03:37 that whole thing is a quote 18:03:46 (http://www.gemstone.com/products/smalltalk/) 18:05:11 worse 18:05:12 http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc301882.aspx 18:05:20 Ctrl-F on "smalltalk" 18:05:33 ah, it's describing the same thign 18:05:37 s/gn/ng/ 18:05:45 COBOL for .NET? APL for .NET? Smalltalk for .NET? 18:05:47 W T F 18:05:59 well, after all, .NET's just a VM really 18:06:11 yes and a bloated crap runtime 18:06:23 Dataman is publishing Delta Forth .NET, a simplified dialect of the Forth programming language. 18:06:28 i guess by simplified 18:06:30 so I can just about understand people targeting it, especially if they're easily influenced by Microsoft 18:06:30 they mean complexified 18:06:32 I bet it has GC. 18:06:34 * AnMaster prefers a lean runtime, just there to handle the "talk to OS bit" 18:06:35 And abstractions. 18:06:39 And that's 'simpler'. 18:06:42 like libc is mostly 18:06:59 ehird: simpler implementation, or simpler to code? 18:07:01 ehird, well I knew about Delta Forth before 18:07:05 iirc it is open source 18:07:08 ais523: exactly! 18:07:18 forth's simplicity is in both 18:07:19 at least it's not like C-INTERCAL, where garbage collection makes a semantic difference to the language 18:07:22 because you have the low level stuff 18:07:26 and then layer tiny abstractions on top 18:07:37 i bet delta forth has 'big abstractions' 18:07:40 and no low level stuff 18:07:57 Forth is its implementation, really. 18:08:13 do you mean by that that there's only one sane way to implement the language? 18:08:29 ais523: if you implement it another way i'd hesitate to call it forth 18:08:39 even if it accepts the same programs? 18:08:49 yep 18:09:11 does that imply that Forth can't be compiled into high-level languages 18:09:15 because it wouldn't be Forth if you did? 18:09:59 well, it would be forth 18:10:01 but i wouldn't call it forth 18:10:25 that gives me a silly idea for an add-on feature to a silly esolang 18:10:31 it can be compiled into any language except C 18:10:41 becaues the name of the original language changes if you compile it into C 18:10:46 so you really compiled a different language 18:10:54 ais523: ha 18:11:01 can you even do that? 18:11:07 I don't think so 18:11:17 but half the players in Agora would try 18:11:27 at least it's not like C-INTERCAL, where garbage collection makes a semantic difference to the language 18:11:30 if it were an esonomic 18:11:30 *blink* 18:11:31 ??? 18:12:03 AnMaster: backtracking past the point where you multithreaded kills the current thread unless it's the last remaining thread to be alive at that point 18:12:08 threads need to be garbage-collected 18:12:21 and as aggressively as possible, too, or the program might quit for no reason 18:12:29 interesting 18:12:34 in C-INTERCAL, you can backtrack past a fork() 18:13:14 Malcom Ryan wrote the semantics for INTERCAL backtracking and multithreading, by the way, I just coded most of it (apart from the original multithreading code, which I ignored and made my own version of anyway) 18:16:17 interesting 18:25:35 -!- Corun has joined. 18:27:23 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:27:26 -!- timotiis has joined. 18:36:19 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:02:07 -!- helios24 has joined. 19:11:13 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 19:11:23 -!- jix has joined. 20:17:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:46:58 -!- Judofyr has joined. 20:54:39 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 21:00:36 -!- timotiis_ has joined. 21:25:18 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:27:18 -!- timotiis_ has changed nick to timotiis. 21:58:27 -!- helios24 has quit ("Leaving"). 22:00:50 People of Esoteria. 22:01:03 Does Recursive Functions of Symbolic Expressions and Their Computation by Machine Part II exist? 22:01:07 I can only find part 1. 22:02:31 Slereah_: Maybe 22:06:01 Also, is Quote necessary in the basic Lisp? 22:06:12 Slereah_: you can simulate it with macros 22:06:29 I mean, on a theoretical level. 22:06:38 Everything seemed just dandy without it. 22:06:54 well, you need something to construct your new objects out of 22:06:56 Although I have no idea what's the minimal for TCness. 22:07:06 quote isn't needed, although you need a stock of objects to manipulate 22:07:11 otherwise you can't actually /do/ anything 22:07:18 luckily, atoms can be that stock of objects 22:07:24 and they don't normally need to be quoted 22:07:27 How does QUOTE create objects? 22:07:48 -!- Iskr has quit ("Leaving"). 22:07:53 Slereah_: it's a special form that just reads its args literally and makes them an object 22:08:00 so by definition, more or less 22:08:15 but it would be possible to start with loads of atoms and cons them all together into an object, I think 22:08:18 just tedious 22:08:32 more or less the same way that it's possible to write Underload without nested parens 22:09:09 A guy was telling me how quote was totally necessary. 22:09:25 And that in M form, parenthesis worked like quote. 22:09:38 well, the point is that atoms are self-quoting 22:09:43 BRB 22:09:49 at least, it depends on the situation 22:10:11 does lisp try to evaluate atoms on the RHS of an expression, or just leave them as-is? I can never remember 22:10:11 Slereah_: all you need is lambda, really 22:10:12 and apply 22:10:14 and it's TC 22:10:16 lisp is just everything else 22:10:20 ais523: evaluate 22:10:24 oh 22:10:31 ehird : Well, lambda is TC by itself 22:10:40 in that case, you'd need some other way to get a stock of unevaluating atoms 22:10:51 Slereah_: no, you need apply, that's in the lambda calculus too 22:11:12 Well yes 22:11:32 But can Lisp be TC with just the cons-car-cdr-eq-atom-cond? 22:11:42 what does atom do? 22:11:42 And a buttload of atoms 22:11:50 and other variables 22:12:06 Atom returns T or F, depending on the atomicity of the variable 22:12:09 Atomicitude 22:12:11 Atomicism 22:13:30 well, I imagine you could manage a BF to LISP like that compiler 22:13:39 as long as you could somehow set up a loop 22:14:23 Well, the original paper, it was possible to do recursion 22:14:30 So I guess 22:14:31 that's easy with recursion, but you didn't put anything that could define a function in your list 22:14:59 however, it may still be possible with the Underload/Unlambda :^/``sii trick 22:15:07 Yeah, there's function definition 22:15:16 if you have function definition it's easy, I think 22:15:25 because apply is in the syntax of the language 22:15:25 back 22:15:30 and function definition can simulate lambdas 22:15:36 actually, no it can't 22:15:44 but I think it can simulate them well enough for these purposes 22:15:49 ais523: by the way 22:15:58 basic evaluation method of scheme 22:16:06 For instance, http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/recursive/img100.png 22:16:07 (apply (eval (car expr)) (map eval (cdr expr))) 22:16:47 TC: 22:17:54 (define (tc expr) (cond ((eq? (car expr) 'lambda) (lambda (x) (replace (cadr expr) x (cddr expr)))) (else (apply (eval (car expr)) (map eval (cdr expr))))) 22:18:13 just define replace to replace all occurences with the other 22:18:20 unless there's a function with the arg equal to the atom 22:18:23 in which case it's left alone 22:18:36 is that a Scheme interp in Scheme? 22:18:41 ais523: no, an LC interp 22:18:46 given the definition of replace that i quoted 22:18:49 well 22:18:51 strict LC interp 22:18:54 LC? 22:18:58 oh, lambda calculus 22:19:01 ais523: lambda calculus 22:19:09 I thought you'd mistyped an acronym for Common Lisp for a moment 22:19:10 technically, if you give the definition of replace I stated, 22:19:19 it's call-by-value LC 22:19:27 but you can specify multiple values in the application 22:19:34 even though it'll just trigger an error 22:19:41 meh 22:19:44 call-by-value LC is easier to write in, I think, because it doesn't need a quote 22:19:54 otherwise you end up in an infinite evaluation loop 22:19:57 ais523: err, neither does any other kind 22:20:02 ais523: regular LC is lazy. 22:20:05 oh 22:20:05 it needs no quote 22:20:07 of course 22:20:22 the Y combinator is ugly in call-by-value 22:20:32 call-by-value LC destroys eta-reduction basically 22:25:36 Zoop 22:26:34 ZIBBIDIBAH 22:29:24 ais523: Gonna make the browser more advanced in a sec 22:37:25 . 22:37:35 .. 22:38:16 ... 22:38:31 ais523: let's do sierpinski 22:38:42 please, I need to concentrate right now 22:38:50 I'm trying to defend myself against an Agoran criminal case 22:38:58 at least one person doesn't like scammers... 22:39:44 ais523: sorry for your loss 22:39:49 not really, this is fun 22:39:51 i'll miss you 22:41:10 I hereby request to be listed as an observer of Agora Nomic. 22:41:14 'sthat even valud 22:41:17 *valid 22:41:19 yes 22:41:23 they keep track of people who are watching 22:42:51 ais523: I bet they'd be nicer if it wasn't a n00b who was having some luck with a clever scam 22:46:27 ais523: Email erez make 'em activate 22:46:35 ehird: why don't you do that? 22:46:45 why did you ask me to, in other words? 22:47:18 ais523: quite busy right now 22:47:22 so am I 22:47:24 And you were the one who 22:47:31 sauid that they woul 22:47:32 let's email them later, when less busy 22:47:36 dn't actibsyr 22:47:41 dn' t activate 23:51:36 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"").