< 1208736018 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: No, but it does sound nice. < 1208736081 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1208736137 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION now knows what a ting is, and thinks it should have been on the bell < 1208737373 0 :Slereah_!n=Vampire_@ANantes-252-1-58-140.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1208737721 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Envelopes can't ring. < 1208737737 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they cannot ting either < 1208737757 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They can if they have a silver lining. < 1208737786 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which of course there always is < 1208737802 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why oerjan isn't in #ircnomic < 1208737870 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Because i'm going to bed" < 1208738978 0 :timotiis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1208741217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1208744481 0 :Judofyr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1208744513 0 :Judofyr!n=Judofyr@cE699BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1208750716 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two more BF clones? :o < 1208750719 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will this never end? < 1208750880 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlikely < 1208750905 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We need a new flag languag. < 1208750906 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1208750937 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something bold. < 1208750939 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exciting. < 1208750945 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing complete! < 1208750984 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should have a simple instruction set, and intuitive concept! < 1208751418 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's make an ESO meeting. < 1208751429 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who's the PR guy of ESO? < 1208751505 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /// is my vote < 1208751513 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's simple, intuitive, elegant < 1208751526 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately it's only vaguely possible that it's TC < 1208751560 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 and I have done a bit of work on a proof-of-concept halting loop, but no real luck so far < 1208752610 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll interpret the lack of response as Slereah_ going completely insane trying to use ///. < 1208752663 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's 5AM here. < 1208752667 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm not trying anything < 1208752688 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1208752915 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looking at it, the 99 doesn't seem very loopy indeed. < 1208753099 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a simple compression algorithm, not really a loop < 1208753399 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clever, yes, but far less interesting < 1208753451 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main reason I think /// ought to be TC is because the find-and-replace operation *itself* has to do looping and some conditional branching < 1208753501 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also possible to construct simple logic gate like things, but making them arbitrarily extensible (or resetable) is tricky < 1208753965 0 :Judofyr_!n=Judofyr@cE699BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1208753965 0 :Judofyr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1208755357 0 :Judofyr_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1208757287 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Ex-Chat" < 1208757665 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.cust.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1208759864 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1208760426 0 :Judofyr!n=Judofyr@cE699BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1208761421 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-080-228-190-213.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1208762389 0 :Judofyr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1208764187 0 :GreaseMonkey!n=saru@122-57-226-168.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1208764799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1208764800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1208765041 0 :Iskr!n=i@host165-52-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1208767585 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-34-125.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1208768165 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1208768621 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1208769551 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"CommandQ" < 1208770127 0 :immibis!n=immibis@203-97-111-43.cable.telstraclear.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1208770166 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immybo would ask "is anyone here any good with microsoft paint?" but he can't be bothered coming online. < 1208770188 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wtf is a fluffy bell ring or an envelope ting? < 1208771588 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1208774866 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Unisex." < 1208775297 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1208775868 0 :Corun!n=Corun@cpc1-rdng15-0-0-cust168.winn.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1208779013 0 :ais523!n=ais523@ar01-fap04.bham.ac.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1208779811 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ping < 1208779829 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 42 seconds. < 1208779837 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, there's definitely something up with the wireless < 1208779851 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that was without me manually editing the timestamp, by the way, and using a proper IRC client < 1208780227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hi, you got the mail I sent a few days ago? < 1208780235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, about ick failing to compile on freebsd < 1208780251 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, did you get my reply? < 1208780255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, nop < 1208780271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait it *just* arrived < 1208780277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right when I hit enter < 1208780283 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try resending it < 1208780318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, err ^ < 1208780346 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I hit 'stop' on my webmail program when I read that, not sure whether it resent or not < 1208780363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real name or nick, hm in a intercal... hm good question... < 1208780371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nick in that case I think < 1208780377 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone else has used their real name so far, as it happens < 1208780387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well use the real name then < 1208780408 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for the people who created the Atari distribution, who are completely anonymous < 1208780458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, your mail client does "include original message in reply" in an unusual way < 1208780492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to include it at the end of the signature, and without the normal > in front of the lines < 1208780499 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I know < 1208780508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what client is it? < 1208780512 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exchange < 1208780519 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :believe it or not, that's what it does in plain-text view < 1208780520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eww < 1208780523 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use it through choice < 1208780539 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun fact: the webmail version of Exchange works properly in Firefox but not in IE < 1208780547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh what? < 1208780555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it an old exchange version or something < 1208780559 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it detects that the browser isn't IE < 1208780576 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so falls back to text which doesn't use super-proprietary Microsoft extensions which also happen to be buggy < 1208780584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahaha < 1208780594 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just get a JS error when I try it on IE sometimes, although other times it works fine < 1208780607 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's something to do with the IE version or patchlevel, but I don't particularly care < 1208780642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1208780740 0 :Corun!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1208780922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the mail says "3 and a half bug" < 1208780924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1208780941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets see, 1) 64-bit issue, 2) freebsd issue 3) ??? < 1208780945 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the FTBFS on FreeBSD and Mac OS X were the same bugs < 1208780981 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--prefix < 1208780988 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a typo in the documentation for -b < 1208780988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, maybe try autoscan, it generates a configure.scan file with tests it think are needed, could be useful for see if something is missing in configure.ac < 1208780996 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I did, and used it as a guide < 1208781003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1208781005 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I redid the autoconfiguration < 1208781029 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've rewritten quite a bit of the file to allow for proper --prefix sandboxing, though < 1208781035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, does any system lack stdargs.h these days? < 1208781072 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not as far as I know, but CLC-INTERCAL still supports Baudot and punched cards, and maintaining compatibility as far back as possible is a running INTERCAL in-joke < 1208781083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1208781094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is "baudot" btw? < 1208781098 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never come across a single INTERCAL program written in EBCDIC, but C-INTERCAL + convickt could run it if possible < 1208781107 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :baudot was a 5-bit character set used by teletypewriters < 1208781118 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so slightly more advanced than Morse Code, but not by much < 1208781127 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it predates networked computers, but am not sure < 1208781144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok... < 1208781181 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to Wikipedia, it was proposed in 1874, and the advanced version with shift codes was implemented around 1901 < 1208781186 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so old indeed < 1208781201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did computers use it? < 1208781263 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure, it was mostly a teletypewriter code < 1208781270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1208781286 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a bit awkward to use in computers due to the shift codes involved < 1208781297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shift codes is? < 1208781312 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5-bit characters aren't enough to encode all the character set by themselves < 1208781319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1208781330 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so some characters are reserved as shift characters which modify the meanings of future characters < 1208781337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see < 1208781354 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ordinary Baudot has a shift to interpret characters as letters, and a shift to interpret characters as numbers/punctuation < 1208781384 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLC-INTERCAL extended Baudot allows double-shift-codes that do lowercase letters and characters from the INTERCAL character set that aren't in the standard punctuation set < 1208781417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maintaining ick must be painful < 1208781437 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Baudot stuff's in a separate file < 1208781451 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clc-cset.i handles all the CLC-INTERCAL character sets, and everything else is done in Latin-1, ASCII, or UTF8 < 1208781452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even so, in general I mean < 1208781468 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, there's an interesting caveat with your --prefix problem: < 1208781475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, err, you do the conversion in intercal?! < 1208781485 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, in C < 1208781492 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it certainly could be done in INTERCAL < 1208781493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" clc-cset.i handles all the CLC-INTERCAL character sets..." < 1208781500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like you meant .c? < 1208781504 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I meant .c < 1208781506 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1208781507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1208781516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, what's the problem with --prefix? < 1208781535 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in order to install Info documentation, you need to modify /usr/share/dir (locations vary) < 1208781548 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but by default the prefix is /usr/local, so the documentation can't be installed < 1208781558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc you only need to modify the "dir" file in the same directory that you install in < 1208781567 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there is only one "dir" file on the system < 1208781576 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least on my laptop < 1208781583 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there is a "dir" file on the system, great < 1208781596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err... < 1208781601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are several here < 1208781605 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/system/prefix directory/ < 1208781612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/share/info/dir < 1208781612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/share/info/emacs-22/dir < 1208781615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/share/binutils-data/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/2.17/info/dir < 1208781616 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: so that method will work on your laptop < 1208781618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1208781624 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/laptop/computer/ < 1208781626 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sorry) < 1208781644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think there is a list of the dir files somewhere central < 1208781657 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on setups like mine where the prefix doesn't contain a dir file (as would happen with your create-this-for-me prefix) < 1208781662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/etc/env.d/00basic:INFOPATH="/usr/share/info" < 1208781664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/etc/env.d/50emacs:INFOPATH=/usr/share/info/emacs-22 < 1208781666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1208781666 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I now don't install into the main documentation tree < 1208781670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and env-update builds the list < 1208781672 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by default, at least < 1208781679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least on gentoo < 1208781685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so there can indeed be more than one dir file < 1208781687 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I instead give a warning saying that the Info stuff won't be installed because the dir file isn't inside the prefix < 1208781702 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: can be, but on some systems isn't, and I need to handle those < 1208781727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway on gentoo an ebuild should never touch the dir file, it is regenerated by some system scripts when needed < 1208781729 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the user wants to install to the dir tree anyway (outside the prefix), they can request that by symlinking a dir file from inside the prefix to outside < 1208781765 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the man database, there's a much simpler method: I only regenerate that if you install as root < 1208781789 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and otherwise leave it alone for maintenance scripts to update < 1208781814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so if ick ever becomes a gentoo package, it would error out with something like: "error can not install this package, it is trying to overwrite a file it shouldn't" I think < 1208781834 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the people who packaged it would just comment out those lines < 1208781837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that may only happen when the file is owned by some other package, in this case it may not detect it as the file doesn't below to any package < 1208781853 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, I check for install-info in the config script, if it isn't there I assume it isn't needed < 1208781867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :install-info does exist < 1208781893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, man database? < 1208781898 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :check for mandb too < 1208781904 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only use it if the install process runs as root < 1208781928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, you mean for apropos? < 1208781944 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1208781958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no mandb command < 1208781965 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I check for it < 1208781970 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it isn't there I assume it isn't needed < 1208781992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makewhatis is used to generate the db < 1208781996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least on gentoo < 1208782001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is in a cron script < 1208782030 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in a cron on Ubuntu too, but it's hardly userfriendly to install documentation with no obvious way to access it < 1208782045 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(less severe for man than for install-info, because typing man directly would work) < 1208782045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um? man ick? < 1208782053 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, man ick works < 1208782078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for telling man to search the right dir, well it's MANPATH set in /etc/env.d/somefile on gentoo < 1208782091 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :manpath's rarely a problem < 1208782108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you needed a custom one, you could install say /etc/env.d/60ick or something like that < 1208782112 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from mandb sometimes picking up two copies of man pages in /usr/local because it finds them both via a symlink and the realpath < 1208782123 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't need a custom man directory < 1208782125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well mandb is stupid then? < 1208782130 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, it is < 1208782142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever "makewhatis" is, I think it is smarter < 1208782201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway, why a symlink? < 1208782216 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't put it there, it's in the default directory structure < 1208782226 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's something like /usr/local/man to /usr/local/share/man < 1208782227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of what? debian? < 1208782235 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu, so presumably Debian < 1208782251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm gentoo got that too heh < 1208782313 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably to increase portability of installs < 1208782325 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :install-info is arguably broken when installing to a symlink, anyway < 1208782329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw want me to try to compile ick on openbsd? I can do that later this week < 1208782339 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the more operating systems the better < 1208782353 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I should probably send the patched development somewhere < 1208782359 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make this a bit less cathedral-style < 1208782378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try version control, distributed version control should fit you perfectly < 1208782442 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, likely a good idea < 1208782478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, of course, if you really do need it on dos...... < 1208782482 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my current version control is reasonably frequent .tgz snapshots (getting more frequent in the run-up to a release), and setting Emacs to backup files in a directory other than the originals < 1208782504 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I just copy the .tgz to DOS, and test it there, and if it fails change some things and test the resulting source on Linux, etc., iterating to a solution < 1208782541 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other-directory thing, by the way, is so I don't lose work typing 'rm *' (I once deleted all my files about Underlambda that way, which is why I set up the separate-directory backup) < 1208782566 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't mean to type rm *, it was a typo, but it's something that it's useful to be protected against < 1208782620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... version control would also help < 1208782634 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it would < 1208782641 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may switch to that when I have the time < 1208782654 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably using darcs, because that's installed here already and I have a vague idea of how to use it < 1208782704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't hard really, like 1-2 minutes. start with a clean source copy. (no *.o and such), run the command to make a repo, for bzr it is: bzr init, other ones are similar < 1208782733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then bzr add . for bzr, to add recursively. commit. then build. see what "unknown files" are listed, and add those to the ignore list < 1208782741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bzr ignore "*.o" for example < 1208782754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then commit the ignores when you are happy with them < 1208782768 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should I include temp/parser.c, temp/lexer.c and temp/oil.c? < 1208782772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the exact commands differ between bzr/hg/git, but the basic idea is the same < 1208782775 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're compiled from yacc and lex files < 1208782787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, generated files should probably not be included < 1208782788 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I include them in the distribution for DOS users without yacc or lex < 1208782813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't include configure, only configure.ac, HOWEVER, in a distributed tar ball I include configure < 1208782818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie, make dist < 1208782830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can make automake handle the make dist < 1208782835 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1208782843 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I don't use automake < 1208782847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to generate a directory ready to be distributed, then tar it up < 1208782853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, something similar then < 1208782858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a shell script or whatever < 1208782891 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it /can/ handle the need to generate a compiler compiler from source (using yacc as a compiler compiler compiler), then using it to compile the compiler < 1208782894 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't want to try < 1208782896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can export clean copies, bzr export, don't know the commands for the other ones < 1208782913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then run some shell script to generate the missing files, ie: configure, your *.c files and such < 1208782916 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for tarring up for me, it's make distclean, then ls -R1 > MANIFEST.txt, then tar it up < 1208782939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, make distclean could leave some *~ files or such around possibly < 1208782940 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sh etc/ctrlmfix.sh too if I've been editing on DOS to try to fix the line endings < 1208782949 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: my distclean removes *~ files < 1208782965 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I generate those in a separate directory nowadays, as I said earlier < 1208782965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while a command like bzr export, only export the version controlled files < 1208782975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like: < 1208782981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#!/usr/bin/env bash < 1208783004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rm -rf dist; mkdir dist && bzr export . dist < 1208783007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cd dist < 1208783010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :autoreconf < 1208783019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1208783035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo "Done, now rename it to the ick-1.2.3.4 and tar it up!" < 1208783051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :autoreconf generates the configure files and so on < 1208783063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much better than the older way with a complex ./autogen.sh < 1208783073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, see the basic idea :) < 1208783098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually not sure if you need to mkdir it before exporting, could depend on what version control system and so on < 1208783117 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best thing about version control is that I can still do things with my makefile if needed < 1208783125 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just letting version control handle controlling versions < 1208783128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, even if there are no *~, there could be other things, say *.orig from a patch or so on < 1208783140 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I go over the MANIFEST by eye < 1208783144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1208783149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1208783154 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like stray files littering the src directory anyway < 1208783167 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I may need to take action concerning them < 1208783180 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I find doing it manually to be useful < 1208783185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then bzr ignored could list all ignored files, again similar commands exist for other programs < 1208783243 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also nice to be reminded at the same time of all the files which are there < 1208783255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway, generating files for a tar ball should be quite easy :) < 1208783259 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's easy both ways < 1208783366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you need some place to put the repo, some webspace, depending on what version control system you select the needs are different, for example bzr can work with a "dumb" webserver, ie, no special configuration. you can send file over by, scp or ftp to upload < 1208783382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hg prevers some cgi script to work well < 1208783388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :git I don't know < 1208783401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but there are hosting sites for them < 1208783417 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is annoyed at darcs and mySQL for erroring on -ise spellings and accepting -ize < 1208783422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bzr: launchpad, which should fit you as an ubuntu user < 1208783423 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how am I meant to remember which to use? < 1208783433 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's as bad as the COLOR/COLOUR in BASIC < 1208783436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err? < 1208783442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what? < 1208783455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use Brittish English in my programs < 1208783473 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but my gripe is with keywords which differ in American and British English < 1208783476 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should accept both spellings < 1208783498 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using British English in the Win32 API will cause loads of link errors, for instance < 1208783499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I assume intercal does that? < 1208783515 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think all INTERCAL keywords are dialect-agnostic < 1208783540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well why not POSIX, most of the time it isn't full words < 1208783542 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and internal identifiers tend to be abbreviated anyway < 1208783562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just stuff like memcmp instead of memory compare (that may actually be ANSI C rather than POSIX, not sure) < 1208783572 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you seen SQL, by the way? It seems even better than Cobol as a candidate for the language INTERCAL's statement syntax was parodying < 1208783576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :windows would have called it MemoryCompareEx < 1208783582 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: heh < 1208783594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I used some sql yes, mainly postgresql < 1208783599 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're right, of course < 1208783619 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my favourite SQLism: ANY and SOME do the same thing < 1208783635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nothing apart from the basic SELECT/INSERT/UPDATE/DELETE stuff < 1208783644 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can write `column` = ANY (...) and also `column` <> SOME (...) < 1208783652 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it flows more naturally in English, you see... < 1208783654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, done some sqlite too < 1208783656 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's almost as bad as PLEASE < 1208783681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember what ANY or SOME does < 1208783705 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mysql> help analyse; < 1208783705 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Name: 'PROCEDURE ANALYSE' < 1208783711 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mysql> help analyze; < 1208783711 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Name: 'ANALYZE TABLE' < 1208783714 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that really is bad < 1208783720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah indeed < 1208783722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :report a bug? < 1208783734 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't be bothered right now < 1208783771 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might at some point, but I'm just using mysql to learn SQL because it's what I happened to get when collecting dependencies < 1208783795 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm learning how to write server-side web applications at the moment, so I installed MediaWiki for the dependencies.) < 1208783856 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, expr op ANY (list) returns TRUE expr op value is TRUE for any value in the list < 1208783863 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and SOME does exactly the same thing as ANY < 1208783870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1208783921 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other related operator is ALL, which does what you'd probably expect given the above description < 1208783989 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(incidentally, J's 'you never need a loop' philosophy is taken even further to the extremes in SQL) < 1208784006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, a MemoryCompareEx on windows would take 7 arguments, three of them are pointers to structs with unions in them with even more parameters < 1208784007 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SQL is almost Turing-complete, but there's no way to write an infinite loop without extensions, I think < 1208784019 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen a LOOP statement but don't know if it's standard < 1208784064 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: thinking about what they'd likely do, two would be handles to the memory pages the memory is allocated in, two would be offsets within the pages, and one would be a pointer to a struct describing the request and setting parameters, so I'd guess 5 params < 1208784078 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, 6, because the Ex normally means they had to add an extra parameter at some point < 1208784084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1208784113 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(adding extra params to the struct is backward-compatible in Windows API because they have to list the sizeof the struct as its first element) < 1208784135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, that's insane < 1208784176 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been known to use that technique for binary file formats I create, when I feel like creating a binary file format (usually as the save file for a game) < 1208784200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, a version number is saner < 1208784204 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if doing it in an API is a good idea, you've got more fundamental problems elsewhere < 1208784209 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as API bloat < 1208784284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, consider how inspircd does protocol for example, in the initial protocol negotiation the servers send protocol version numbers, if they don't match they abort the link < 1208784311 0 :Corun!n=Corun@cpc1-rdng15-0-0-cust168.winn.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1208784320 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I don't intend to change the file format once I've finished initial development < 1208784323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the current protocol version is 1105, 11 for 1.1, and 05 for the 5th revision since 1.1.0 was released < 1208784335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of them happened in early versions < 1208784345 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I use the save files to help test things, and it would be a bit awkward to have to continuously replay the games every time I changed their format < 1208784353 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I put auto-update-from-older-version code in < 1208784368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what games are these? < 1208784414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the normal way of handling it is adding some form of cheat mode while developing < 1208784421 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :little toy things that have never been released < 1208784425 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are cheat modes too < 1208784437 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but having a consistent game state is more useful < 1208784450 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as allowing me to develop the program and map/levels simultaneously < 1208784450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example supertux got a console that lets you run things in the script language it use (squirrel) < 1208784464 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of my games stored all its information in binary < 1208784467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh and why binary formats? < 1208784474 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you could type a cheat combination and type in raw hex < 1208784476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :supertux use S-Expressions :D < 1208784504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :binary formats is harder to maintain < 1208784515 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :binary formats because it saves atoi overhead, and because breaking portability is sort-of what you want with games < 1208784526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want that? < 1208784529 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't want it easy for the user to edit the save file either < 1208784572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1208784583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well level files shouldn't be in binary then < 1208784592 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're in text in some of the games < 1208784602 0 :Corun!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1208784612 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in some cases I store them in spreadsheets, using the background colour directly < 1208784615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, allowing users to make custom levels in fun < 1208784620 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1208784624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err..? spreadsheets?? < 1208784626 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to extract the colours with Excel macros < 1208784639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a second... this sounds insane? < 1208784648 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but OpenOffice.org macros are lousy, so now I parse the raw ODF < 1208784661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why a document format for it!? < 1208784673 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing a level editor is hard < 1208784674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean... even xml is better than that < 1208784688 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :setting pixels by higlighting them in a spreadsheet program and clicking on a background colour is easy and intuitive < 1208784706 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can type commands directly into the cells < 1208784719 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, so it's insane, but useful in some cases, especially when you have many different background colours < 1208784728 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most text editors don't have a decent rectangle fill < 1208784749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, writing a level editor is simpler than parsing a spreadsheet file < 1208784753 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and with the ones that do, it isn't as intuitive as a spreadsheet, plus you can't store commands in the same place as the colours without breaking the ASCII art < 1208784755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and less prone to bitrot < 1208784762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :file formats change < 1208784771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think openoffice changed it's once, not sure < 1208784859 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://filebin.ca/xkcbq/ods2gbm.pl <-- you can write a level editor simpler than that? < 1208784876 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and OpenOffice.org did change its file format once, to comply with the international ODF standard < 1208784914 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much all office suites except MS Office use ODF nowadays, and the bits of that standard I use are unlikely to change < 1208784923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you can reuse a lot between the game and the level editor < 1208784928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie, rendering, parsing and so on < 1208784952 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a level editor, you generally want much larger amounts of the level to fit onto screen at once than when playing the game < 1208784968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, and? < 1208784997 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now suppose you're using a custom bitmap tileset, which I often am < 1208785003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use opengl to render it you could just move the camera further away < 1208785006 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the tiles become indistinguishable from each other when scaled down < 1208785011 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nothing nearly so advanced < 1208785015 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my Windows games used GDI < 1208785022 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just blitted prerendered bitmaps to the screen < 1208785028 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I am learning OpenGL at the moment < 1208785034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, supertux use tiles of *.png, it renders them by either sdl or opengl, the level editor is opengl only < 1208785039 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the games ran under DOS < 1208785043 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some were even text-mode < 1208785046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zooming is easy, just some matrix tranformation < 1208785056 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an ASCII-art platformer somewhere < 1208785076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well nothing wrong with that, but you can't show more of the level with that < 1208785080 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, IBM-extended-art < 1208785087 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, you couldn't < 1208785108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway you want to be able to zoom in a level editor, to see both the details and to get an overview < 1208785109 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just used edit.com as an editor for that (it worked the best out of the editors I had installed on Windows at that time) < 1208785118 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I was doing it nowadays I'd probably use Emacs < 1208785133 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you aren't helping your case that a level editor is easier than just parsing some ODF < 1208785146 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, both Excel and OpenOffice.org already have zoom functions < 1208785154 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as nifty things like copy-paste < 1208785161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, point is you can reuse a lot of the game engine < 1208785168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least if you do it with opengl or similar < 1208785201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and level parsing/writing is done with serializing classes to < 1208785229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or structs if you aren't used object orientation < 1208785272 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly arrays, actually < 1208785280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1208785296 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when using binary I just write them with fwrite < 1208785345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in supertux you can have multiple tilemaps, some solid, other not, to create say rising lava in a level you would fill a tilemap with lava, set it to solid, and add a path, then add a script activator somewhere to start the moving of the tilemap along the path < 1208785382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each tilemap is a class, the tileids are stored in an array of the tilemap < 1208785453 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, to create rising lava I just fill lots of squares with character 219, foreground set to red... < 1208785464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how do you make it rise? < 1208785495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway having multiple tilemaps, with different z-index, well... a spreadsheet wouldn't work then < 1208785534 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 2D, one direction is gravity < 1208785536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, with a design such as that of supertux, a level editor is quite simple. a lot of code can be shared, just add a few dialog boxes and a draw tool basically < 1208785541 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I make it rise by filling in more square < 1208785574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :supertux is also 2D < 1208785627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, point is, depending on the design of the game engine, adding a level editor need not be harder than trying to parse a spreadsheet < 1208785643 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you look at my spreadsheet parser? < 1208785648 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's only a couple of screens of Perl < 1208785649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did < 1208785658 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a substantial portion of that is defining which colours map to which tiles < 1208785825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yet how would you handle multiple tilemaps in a spreadsheet < 1208785836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or features like adding a path < 1208785838 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by multiple tilemaps, here? < 1208785853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, say a foreground tilemap, a background one and so on < 1208785857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that are overlayed < 1208785867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some can be solid < 1208785887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least one should be solid < 1208785891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but more are allowed < 1208785894 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've used patterns (an Excel) feature before when doing that sort of thing, and they could be used for that purpose < 1208785911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, a limit on amount of tilemaps then < 1208785943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think supertux doesn't have a limit, though 3-5 are recommended, more than that and the game could become slow on old computers < 1208785946 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never used more than 1 anyway < 1208785964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it is quite useful for creating effects < 1208785972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and nice looking levels < 1208785984 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :effects are a bit advanced for what I was doing < 1208786006 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for the most recent stuff, it was a case of black blobs are walls, cyan blobs are people, etc... < 1208786008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, consider that some tiles can be transparent, say a grass tile doesn't take up the whole tile < 1208786014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you want a tree in the bg < 1208786018 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it does < 1208786026 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if I want a tree I'll place a tree tile < 1208786037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, with a bush in front? < 1208786045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need a custom tile for each one then < 1208786056 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm looking at the game world from above < 1208786058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead, you could place a tree and in front of it a bush < 1208786064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah? not a side scroller? < 1208786078 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my side scrollers never got beyond the ASCII-art stage < 1208786080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :supertux is a side scroller < 1208786107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh and what about secret areas < 1208786123 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some games didn't have any < 1208786137 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other games just had them far enough from the main view that they weren't onscreen at the same time as the main areas < 1208786147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want say a grotto on the side that is hidden, then when you enter it, the wall fades away so you can see what's inside the area < 1208786148 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you could only see about 4 tiles away from where you were in most games < 1208786154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you want several tilemaps < 1208786167 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I did that with lots of triggers and recolour commands < 1208786179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go near the wall and it creates the cavern for you < 1208786181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sounds like harder to maintain < 1208786185 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :walk away from the wall and it fills it back in < 1208786190 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was hard to maintain < 1208786212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with supertux you could add a script trigger with say: tilemapfoo.fade(); < 1208786225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can name objects that you can use in scripts heh) < 1208786239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually not sure it is fade(), need to check script api docs XD < 1208786263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://supertux.lethargik.org/wiki/Scripting_reference < 1208786281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah it's: fade(float alpha, float seconds) < 1208786302 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not FadeTilemapEx? < 1208786305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1208786318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well the api is somewhat sane IMO < 1208786322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to windows API < 1208786335 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you could say that about most APIs < 1208786347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is object orientated so... < 1208786352 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd even venture to say that the C-INTERCAL external calls API is somewhat sane compared to the Windows API < 1208786354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well sane overall < 1208786356 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it has COME FROMs in < 1208786431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the only issue is that calls tend to be non-blocking, so if you want a cut scene where you want to fade and wait for it to finish, then do something else and so on, you need to add calls to wait() < 1208786458 0 :timotiis!n=timotiis@jfkew.plus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1208786462 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION envisions what a cross between C++ and bash would be like < 1208786468 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tilemapfoo.fade(a,b) &; < 1208786469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, err why? < 1208786474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahah < 1208786498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, I don't know how the internals of the scripting part work on the C++ side actually < 1208786512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the scripting language is one called squirrel < 1208786525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is where the issues are, rather than in the scripting API < 1208786561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, that C++/bash hybrid doesn't seem so ridiculous; bash has a nice easy-to-use attitude to concurrency < 1208786589 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then all we need are ONCE, AGAIN, computed ABSTAIN, REINSTATE, and COME FROM, and you can construct most threading primitives pretty easily < 1208786589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :want a variable that stays around until next time the script snippet is called? IIRC, you do something like: this.foo <- true < 1208786591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example < 1208786617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, just one thing: bash does concurrency by fork() iirc < 1208786630 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, fork/exec < 1208786636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb food? < 1208786638 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its concurrency model isn't powerful, or anything like that < 1208786641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err s/?/ < 1208786652 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that it's easy to type and think about < 1208787165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1208787186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh and it does fork for a lot of other cases where it really isn't needed < 1208787187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say: < 1208787213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo is a bash function, it only uses bash built-ins < 1208787228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you do say: myvariable=$(foo bar quux) < 1208787235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that will fork and capture the output < 1208787246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when the function is builtin, it really wouldn't be needed < 1208787281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the only way to return a value from a function therefore is to use a out variable < 1208787282 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why bash recommends $(< file) rather than $(cat file) < 1208787283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so: < 1208787294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo myvariable bar quux < 1208787296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then in foo < 1208787308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :printf -v "$1" "%s" "$tempvariable" < 1208787318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that needs bash 3.1 or later < 1208787328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the -v option to printf didn't exist before that < 1208787337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well for reading a file sure < 1208787358 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, $() is just backquotes, but nestable, right? < 1208787393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, iirc yes, there may be more syntax differences related to quoting though, but not sure < 1208787402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just using $() is simpler < 1208787407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easier to read and so on < 1208787427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and unless you need it to run on really old shells it works fine < 1208787450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course for a configure script for example you want backquotes therefore < 1208787468 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like backquotes anyway < 1208787478 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm glad they're in ASCII < 1208787487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well so are $ and ( and ) iirc? < 1208787493 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1208787497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anywa ` is just ` here < 1208787501 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not surprised that they're in ASCII < 1208787502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway* < 1208787508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie, ` is a "dead key" < 1208787511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on Swedish keyboard < 1208787526 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense, most languages need more letters than English does < 1208787529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for stuff like é and such < 1208787551 0 :fizzie2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :` is dead in the normal Finnish keymap, too, but I always make it undead, since I need ~s and such far oftener than strange accented characters. < 1208787567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the forward one is just same as the backward one, same key but ` is shift key as well < 1208787584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie2, err, "need ~s"? < 1208787595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what has ~ got to do with `? < 1208787624 0 :fizzie2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least here ~ is a dead key too. All three of ^, ~ and ¨ are in a single completely corpse-like key. < 1208787660 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on this UK keyboard I only have ¬£ as non-ASCII characters, also a key which sometimes produces a weird vertical-bar-but-not-really char on Windows but is mapped to | on Linux < 1208787660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~ is a dead key here too, hm: AltGr+ followed by space < 1208787685 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :over here ~ is right next to return, so much so that you can type rm * rather than rm *~ by mistake < 1208787691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you mean the split vertical bar thing? < 1208787697 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1208787704 0 :fizzie2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finnish and Swedish keymaps should be pretty similar, I've used the Swedish one with NetBSD or something which didn't have a specific Finnish one in the default set. < 1208787707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that just a case of weird dos font? < 1208787712 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only the key /marked/ split vertical bar is over backspace < 1208787717 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that produces regular vertical bar < 1208787721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie2, yeah iirc they are more or less the same < 1208787730 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the key which looks like a regular vertical bar is AltGr-` < 1208787737 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it produces split vertical bar on Windows < 1208787748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout#Swedish.2FFinnish < 1208787749 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and shade-half-the-pixel vertically on DOS < 1208787754 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/pixel/texel/ < 1208787754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie2, wikipedia says they are the same < 1208787791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : only the key /marked/ split vertical bar is over backspace <-- I got no one marked like that here < 1208787805 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not surprising < 1208787806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, over backspace? that would be F11-F12 on this keyboard < 1208787808 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not backspace < 1208787810 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :backslash < 1208787812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1208787814 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 'over' as in with shift < 1208787821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well \ is AltGr-+ < 1208787827 0 :fizzie2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually in this particular keyboard the normal | key is marked with the broken-bar symbol. < 1208787828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ being right of 0 < 1208787830 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here \ is to the left of z < 1208787845 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`1234567890-= < 1208787850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie2, AltGr-< you mean? < 1208787856 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?qwertyuiop[] < 1208787864 0 :fizzie2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster; Yes. Of course it doesn't produce the silly broken-bar symbol. < 1208787874 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asdfghjkl;'# < 1208787875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1234567890+ < 1208787877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ^ < 1208787885 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\zxcvbnm,./ < 1208787888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :§ is in front of 1 < 1208787893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird IMO < 1208787895 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have section-sign on this keyboard < 1208787909 0 :fizzie2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have a §, and shift-§ produces a ½. < 1208787923 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and | and € are the only chars on the whole keyboard that use AltGr < 1208787928 0 :fizzie2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember when I've last pressed that key non-accidentally. < 1208787931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I do, but that key looks unused (some keys no longer have readable symbols on them) < 1208787944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about as useless as Shift-4 being ¤ < 1208787948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another symbol I never use < 1208787969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie2, same about the ½ bit < 1208787998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have used that once, in this channel, when I suggested that oklotalk should be able to parse that symbol as a fraction meaning 1/3 < 1208787998 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my keyboard's really quite impoverished < 1208787999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1208788003 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but US keyboards are even worse < 1208788009 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have two keys for \, I think < 1208788020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well there are more with AltGr, that aren't marked < 1208788025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :µ = AltGr-m < 1208788031 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually useful < 1208788043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is about the only non-marked one I actually use < 1208788050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wish there was one for pi < 1208788053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think there is < 1208788057 0 :fizzie2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My home keyboard layout has altgr-[a-z] mapped to "correct" greek letters. < 1208788063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh AltGr-e = € < 1208788065 0 :fizzie2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So altgr-p would produce the pi symbol. < 1208788074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AltGr-p = þ < 1208788075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here < 1208788079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever that one is < 1208788097 0 :fizzie2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the standard xfree/xorg altgr mapping is full of all kinds of unlikely characters. < 1208788113 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, it works here too, but they're unmarked chars < 1208788119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie2, I use more or less standard Swedish layout, except that I used xmodmap to do something useful with the windows keys < 1208788125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is meta, the other is super < 1208788133 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :攢ðeđŋħ→jĸłµnøþ@¶ßŧ↓“ł»←« < 1208788146 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and the single Windows key here is super < 1208788162 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange that there's a Windows key at all, though, because the laptop came with Linux preinstalled < 1208788162 0 :fizzie2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Þ and ð are part of at least the Icelandic alphabet. < 1208788166 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and XP manuals < 1208788208 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was doubly confusing: both because a Linux computer doesn't need XP manuals, and because I didn't realise such manuals existed (I've haven't seen them with a Windows computer since 3.1) < 1208788240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are xp manuals? < 1208788253 0 :fizzie2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can understand µ, since that's so very useful, but I don't quite see why of all the greek letters they've included kappa (ĸ) and not π or λ. < 1208788258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc all there was was a "getting started" 4-page thing < 1208788308 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think it may have just been a getting started thing, but it was about 100 pages long < 1208788449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, the one I can find here, contains stuff like "here is how you find the help system, and this how awesome xp is" < 1208788475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 pages in fact < 1208788502 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they could only write 6 pages about how awesome XP was? Sounds about right < 1208788511 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vista would have about 1 and a half pages of how wow it was < 1208788513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well a lot was pictures < 1208788545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one page is how to find online help < 1208788556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 5 pages with a lot of pictures < 1208788585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, note that this isn't even a4, it is more like 20*10 cm, where 10 is the height < 1208788596 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine was small too < 1208788602 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :manuals rarely are A4 < 1208788603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite thick and blank paper though < 1208788623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well they are rarely wider than they are high though < 1208788627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which this one is < 1208788640 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, the reason I haven't been here much recently is that I was recovering from writing a report with a page limit of 80 pages in a group of 10 people < 1208788640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a ruler here so can't check exactly < 1208788654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, about what? < 1208788657 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had the job of reformatting it from 129 pages down to 80 without changing the paper size or font size < 1208788660 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: university project < 1208788663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1208788664 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I managed it, though < 1208788674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about margins then? < 1208788679 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :standardising vertical whitespace, using tiny margins, and changing the font to Arial Narrow < 1208788684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1208788692 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also moving pictures next to each other < 1208788707 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we had to move 3 pages worth of stuff to appendices to leave room for page numbers, though < 1208788708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well not very readable then < 1208788713 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perfectly readable < 1208788724 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not as space-wasting as usual < 1208788725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, too wide lines are not readable < 1208788739 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the lines weren't much wider than regular lines < 1208788748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, you said tiny margins? < 1208788750 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the margin was dropped from 1 in to 1 cm < 1208788759 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not a ridiculous proportional increase in line length < 1208788767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how long was the line then? < 1208788781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything wider than 12-13 cm is hard to read IMO < 1208788789 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A4 page width - 2 cm < 1208788790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :less is preferable < 1208788795 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can work it out from that < 1208788837 0 :fizzie2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to fit an amount of text into a four-page two-column conference paper format without changing font sizes, fonts at all, margins, or just about anything; since they were all dictated by the latex template enforced by the conference organizers. Fortunately there weren't that many extra lines of text, so I got it done by tweaking the inter-figure/table spacing to be a bit narrower. < 1208788838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that means something like 19 cm wide I think < 1208788859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie2, heh < 1208788909 0 :fizzie2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I just stuck the same text to a standard one-column \documentclass{article} template, since they're going to let me extend the paper a bit for study credits; and suddenly it produced a 12-page output file. < 1208788933 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the vertical whitespace is what saved most of the space for me < 1208788956 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we edited the report in Google Docs, and some people copy/pasted from Microsoft Word (which is not advisable) < 1208788956 0 :Corun!n=Corun@cpc1-rdng15-0-0-cust168.winn.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1208788978 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I exported as OpenOffice.org and used regexps to fix the paragraph breaks < 1208788994 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then set paragraph spacing to single and between-paragraph spacing to half a line < 1208789045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie2, oh? < 1208789050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1208789077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the \documentclass{article} got sane line length IMO < 1208789117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with 2 columns you can fill more of the page of course < 1208789129 0 :fizzie2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and the conference paper format was pretty space-efficient, two columns and 9pt font, or 8pt for references. < 1208789154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 pt, a bit small < 1208789698 0 :fizzie2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The line length (when measured in characters) of the 9pt two-column thing seems to be about 80% of what the default article-class (12pt or 11pt or some-such font, nice and wide margins) has. < 1208789908 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has seen a web page where they have a middot with every possible combining diacritical mark on it < 1208789919 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to its credit, Firefox rendered the resulting mess plausibly < 1208790018 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/t/8425.aspx <--- it's a very esolang-attitude thing they're doing there, although you have to appreciate how bad the forum software is to get what they're doing < 1208790262 0 :fizzie2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I came across a rather horrible 10-or-so-combining-characters example somewhere on unicode.org, too, but the site is so hugey I can't find it againt; it wasn't in any of the three places I thought it might be. < 1208790374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie2, hm how is that possible? < 1208790393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and that link doesn't seem to have those dots? < 1208790411 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they discussed using them for a while, and then moved onto even more insane things < 1208790425 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole discussion is what's interesting < 1208790426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it's a long page, I can't find it < 1208790442 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, the forum software used doesn't escape anything but