00:00:52 SimonRC: its interseting 00:00:55 No. 00:01:36 * SimonRC goes to bed 00:01:40 ( o/~ # Pedants. / Hgh / What are they good for? / Designing air-trafic control systems. # ) 00:03:12 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 00:03:49 SimonRC: bye 00:03:53 Slereah: :P 00:08:11 I wonder what databases have many-to-many as their primitive relationship. 00:08:18 You can do many-to-one and one-to-many based on those. 00:16:43 nobody interested in databases? 00:28:57 * Sgeo is in a database class 00:29:07 http://www.itwire.com/content/view/13339/53/ 00:29:08 Heh. 00:35:58 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:51:21 Sgeo: Huh? 00:53:30 Why huh? 00:55:25 My good God, my math teacher last year is such a geek. . . 00:55:38 Him and his son are going to the Shadowmoor prerelease tournament. 00:55:53 (they're doing two-headed giant) 00:56:01 Well, he has a son. 00:56:12 So that means that he had sex at one point, I suppose. 00:56:18 He can't be that much of a dork. 00:56:32 Having relations with the opposite gender does not eliminate geekiness. 00:56:48 Does it not? 00:56:54 I have a girlfriend; does that make me un-geeky? 00:57:00 I could market some sort of cure otherwise. 00:57:08 LMAO 00:57:33 It would be like a whore house in a computer lab. 00:58:04 Meanwhile, I'll just be amused that I'm going to a prerelease tournament with my *math teacher*, of all things. :p 00:58:13 Why huh? 00:58:16 your statement made no sense 00:58:19 * Sgeo is in a database class 00:58:29 I'm taking a database class in college. 00:58:33 pikhq: You said that a few days ago. 00:58:34 Sgeo: Oh. 00:58:40 ehird`: Oh. 00:58:49 Sgeo: Let me guess: It's totally full of relational theory 00:58:54 Or.. not. 00:59:08 We just got through Database normalization. 00:59:12 Heh. 00:59:58 Are you here when I'm in here thursday mornings? 01:00:31 I am in here most any day because I have nothing better to do 01:00:39 But define 'morning' in GMT 01:01:04 A bit past 12:30EST actually 01:01:16 So not really even morning where I am 01:01:26 GMT. 01:01:35 I am a timezone bigot! :D 01:01:41 Sgeo, you're currently on EDT. 01:01:46 ;) 01:01:51 * Sgeo is not a time person 01:02:00 EDT, IIRC, is UTC-4. 01:02:55 "Call it what you want, I don't care. I make six figures being a general practitioner with a trade-school bachelor's that, in retrospect, I didn't need. I have never even needed to use high school algebra on the job. Most brilliant mathematicians and computer scientists will be stuck in academia or staff-level drone positions for their entire careers because they don't have any soft skills or business sense. They are forever 01:03:03 That guy is like the cool dude of computing! 01:03:15 He probably has all sorts of popped collars. 01:03:21 And I hate cool dudes. 01:04:02 "I have never even needed to use high school algebra on the job." Apparently, he's never had to do any algorithm more complicated than shell sort. 01:04:12 ;p 01:04:55 Since the last big program I had to write was to treat nuclear physics datas, I had to throw in a little math. 01:05:24 Didn't work though. I suck at C for manipulating files. 01:05:31 "Stuck in academia." Is being in academia as bad as all that? 01:05:46 (oerjan's not here, so I can't really know) 01:07:02 programming pretty much is high school algebra 01:07:14 " 01:07:16 Hey, you computer scientists...you are leaving your "I ride a high horse" comments on a web page that was probably designed, coded, managed, etc, by people who have no need for anything at all beyond basic algebra, so I would say that the article is correct -- it is not much algorithims/math that creates value, it is the thoughtful expression of a process. 01:07:17 Heh. 01:07:23 The comments are so awesome. 01:08:28 Link, please. 01:08:48 lament: but orthogonal to it 01:08:52 -!- kwertii has joined. 01:08:55 same difficulty, but not equals 01:08:56 Already gave it 01:08:59 they overlap of course 01:09:00 http://www.itwire.com/content/view/13339/53/ 01:20:31 " 01:20:31 As an artist who has long been interested in computer programming I'm very interested in the philosophical (ontological and epistemological) aspects of computer programming (including mathematics and language) -but it does seem that (even in the arts) these aspects have become buried deeply out of sight =largely because of academic and commercial interests it seems. 01:20:59 I don't agree with that statement. 01:21:28 I lolled at that statement. 01:21:32 Certainly computer /programming/, as the menial engineering field it has become, shows this flaw, but I don't think it's true of computer /science/ at all. 01:21:48 (That is, I don't think it's true of academia) 01:22:36 Mind you, I'm trying not to lol because of the stupid way this is written :P 01:22:51 not sure what's stupid about that comment 01:22:52 The comments are a gold mine. 01:23:00 It's like a gigantic flamewar. 01:23:31 it's not at all obvious that programming should be related to math 01:23:40 (shouldn't it be related to language instead?) 01:23:56 "I really like cats and programming." 01:23:58 What I find silly about the comment is that the wording there is unnecessary, it's just there to go "OOH I'M SO SMART I'M A PHILOSOPHER BLAH BLAH BLAH" 01:24:12 "computer science" involves math simply because it's a science 01:24:16 GregorR: what's unnecessary there? 01:24:40 GregorR: "ontological" and "epistemological" are real words, they actually mean stuff 01:24:55 I'm not claiming that they don't. 01:25:00 I don't think anything was invented. 01:25:06 I just don't think they add anything to the comment. 01:25:09 Except long words. 01:26:04 "The algorithm is not the essential paradigm of computer science", he proclaims. 01:26:16 Alright. Sort a list without an algorithm. 01:26:21 You have infinite time. 01:26:24 Begin. . . Now. 01:26:46 GregorR: of course they add to the comment. Without them, it would say "i'm very interested in the philosophical aspects of computer programming". 01:26:59 that just makes you sound like a moron who has no idea about philosophy or computer programming 01:27:05 * GregorR bashes his head into the wall. 01:27:28 Instead, it makes him sound like a *well-educated* moron who has no idea about philosophy or computer programming. ;) 01:27:39 *ding* 01:28:04 Why do I ever get into arguments online? Soooo pointless. 01:28:20 i don't understand this at all 01:28:44 "An operating cannot be deterministic" 01:28:47 precise terminology is good 01:28:49 Operating system, rather. 01:29:27 * pikhq laughs his ass off until the end of time 01:29:47 "An operating system does not terminate" 01:29:58 Hrm. I dunno what shutdown -h does. 01:30:06 *Can't* be halting. 01:31:10 ontology is actually a pretty cool subject, ESPECIALLY as it related to computer programming 01:31:28 is code data? or is data code? or is it both at once? :) 01:31:29 It doesn't HAVE to terminate due to internal causes.. 01:31:44 s/related/relates 01:32:22 Sgeo: I can make a deterministic, halting operating system. 01:32:27 Plus, an algorithm doesn't have to terminate either. 01:32:39 And he stupidly assumes that. . . Slereah has that covered. 01:32:55 Hell, the original never terminated! 01:33:07 * pikhq can easily make a deterministic operating system. 01:33:34 Am I allowed to not use any non-deterministic hardware on the computer? :p 01:33:39 so what's an algorithm? 01:33:51 pikhq : Are you going to use any atoms? 01:33:52 A sequence of steps. 01:34:09 Slereah: Fine. Any physical machine will, by its very nature, be slightly non-deterministic. 01:34:16 a sequence of steps? 01:34:23 *series of tube 01:34:23 is a haskell function an algorithm? 01:34:34 Poor definition perhaps, but a fairly intuitive one. 01:34:45 Well, lambda calculus is done by a sequence of step 01:34:50 When applying beta conversion 01:34:55 So I assume that yes. 01:35:08 so reducing LC is done by an algorithm 01:35:16 but LC itself is not an algorithm, it's just an expression 01:35:20 a bunch of symbols 01:35:22 isn't that so? 01:35:29 Well, it also has transformation rules. 01:35:31 True. It's a way of defining algorithms. 01:35:35 They're as important! 01:35:43 pikhq: so what's an algorithm? 01:36:02 presumably not a sequence of steps, because there're no steps in fac n = product [1..n] 01:36:08 no sequence, either 01:36:28 it's a working program, though 01:36:29 A sequence of steps is a good abstraction! 01:36:32 Well, there is at least one! 01:36:33 Imperative programs can be beautiful. 01:36:44 Would you like a formal definition? 01:36:59 is it a useful one? 01:37:08 It's nonexistent, actually. 01:37:17 lament: Yes! There are QUITE A FEW languages based on it.. 01:37:38 I think what that article really talks about 01:37:41 Unless you define 'algorithm' as 'anything that can be expressed in a Turing-complete language'. 01:37:45 is operational vs. denotational semantics 01:37:59 his "process expression" is simply operational semantics 01:38:17 "A logic circuit is an expression of a logical process" 01:39:18 this makes sense 01:39:43 you could talk of the "algorithm" that the logic circuit implements, of course 01:42:24 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:18:50 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:47:13 -!- Slereah has joined. 02:56:36 -!- adu has joined. 03:41:19 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:00:48 -!- adu has quit ("Bye"). 04:56:41 G'night all 04:57:29 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 05:16:22 pikhq: you should see this: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/images/aldez/ 05:18:40 I <3 05:18:52 :D 05:18:55 Now, check this out: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5737070239476680627 05:18:58 (not me) 05:19:00 it's the intro to a game I'm making 05:19:09 (just totally fucking awesome) 05:19:16 I own his CD, "The art of motion" 05:19:17 and yes 05:19:54 Ah. Good taste. 05:26:05 * RodgerTheGreat is listening to Hiphopopotamus Vs. Rhymenocerous (Featuring Rhymenocerous And The Hiphopapoatumus) by Flight Of The Conchords from Flight Of The Conchords (Original Staging) 06:06:03 i'm the hiphoppopotomus! My lyrics are bottomless! ........... 06:07:02 Bloody hell. I think I can go to be, and then find out that I need to do laundry. 06:07:07 There goes my sanity tomorrow. 06:07:42 Rarely do you see so many words have so little meaning. 06:08:06 Never read a paper by a liberal arts major, have you? 06:08:12 Heh :P 06:09:23 "And thus, we can conclude that the underlying symbolic metaphor of the /Mona Lisa/ is a misogynistic tyrade against all women everywhere, by giving a simple example of feminine beauty for all to despise." 06:09:31 (translation: I am full of shit.) 06:09:58 -!- calamari has joined. 06:16:41 hi 06:24:07 GregorR: you here? 06:27:08 pikhq: spoilers beware, but I've added the frames for the end of the demo we're finishing this week: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/images/aldez/ 06:32:46 calamari: Not very, but a bit. 06:33:08 GregorR: you need a site map :P ls -R would work in a pinch.. hehe 06:33:20 location of egobot? 06:33:24 Site map? My site needs any sort of organization at all :P 06:33:29 EgoBot is on the Eso files archive. 06:33:33 ahh ok 06:33:35 thaks 06:33:50 i need to rip off part of your code since I'm too lazy to write it myself 06:34:16 It's in C++. 06:34:24 Well, it's in extremely C-ish C++. 06:34:42 yeah 06:35:00 been messing around with a qemu sandboxed mini linux 06:35:22 got it booting up and starting telnetd so now I just need to add the bot wrappers 06:36:06 ooh 11.1 MB getting bigger 06:37:04 I should probably provide a C compiler tho.. what do you think? right now it only has python 06:38:20 wonder how much that'll bloat it 06:44:56 Use tcc 06:45:01 gcc = much bloat, tcc = tiny 06:57:27 good idea 06:58:14 I'll have to figure out how to cross compile that for uclibc 07:02:50 Oh 8-O 07:02:53 G'luck :P 07:18:13 calamari: So, why did you randomly find me on [shivers down the spine] facebook? 07:20:17 GregorR: I was checking to see if anyone I knew was in the esoteric group 07:20:35 so then I searched for a few people in the chat room 07:20:43 you were the lucky one ;) 07:21:11 yeah facebook is pretty lame 07:21:50 I only joined it because IBM promoted it for something, don't even remember now 07:35:03 -!- kwertii has quit ("bye"). 07:37:33 -!- Iskr has joined. 07:46:24 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:47 -!- olsner has joined. 10:08:37 -!- jix has joined. 11:10:00 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:10:10 -!- oklopol has joined. 11:33:26 -!- Corun has joined. 12:49:55 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:02:23 -!- timotiis has joined. 14:39:17 -!- Corun has joined. 15:57:17 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 16:47:03 -!- Corun has joined. 17:02:37 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:42:03 -!- ehird` has joined. 18:42:06 -!- ehird has joined. 18:42:21 -!- ehird` has left (?). 18:50:49 oklopol: oko 18:51:12 -!- timotiis has quit (Connection timed out). 18:53:14 -!- oklofok has joined. 18:56:44 oklofok: oko2 18:57:45 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:57:55 -!- jix has joined. 18:59:56 gto 18:59:58 jh 19:00:13 oklofok: unfortunately noooo okohird YET 19:00:23 didn't work on it much after you left, got distracted :( 19:00:29 however, i will continue the parser 19:01:17 oklofok: it will have crazily cool parse errors though 19:01:25 like (a) -> 'Application with <2 expressions' 19:01:37 ( -> 'EOF while parsing application' 19:01:50 oklofok: OH, and my cons has a bug 19:01:57 [$pb :] should be [$pb $:] if i am not mistaken 19:02:08 hmm 19:02:10 yes. 19:02:36 oklofok: when making oklotalk i suggset trying to cut down on the $ and []s 19:02:38 they're quite ugly 19:03:06 [] is implicit in oklotalk 19:03:22 and $ was originally §, but wasn't ascii so i changed it 19:03:28 indeed, i don't like $ 19:03:31 §atom 19:03:35 i liked that 19:05:12 oklofok: [] is implicit -- can;t you find a way to add elegant multi-arg funcalls to the APL-style? 19:05:14 would be really neat 19:05:26 oklofok: and it's more having to mark it full stop, really 19:06:30 http://xkcd.com/329/ 19:06:39 whaddya mean 19:06:59 oklofok: look at my cons code 19:07:07 replace $ with any symbol - its still too much 19:07:29 it will need some good thinking to work out how to cut them down though 19:08:12 what did you mean by that apl thing 19:08:26 oklofok: like, instead of passing around lists when you want to pass like 5 arguments 19:08:33 find out a way to actually have 5(etc)-argument functions 19:08:42 while keeping in with the elegant apl/oklotalk hybrid semantics 19:09:18 what exactly do you mean? 19:09:22 currently, you would do 19:09:24 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:09:28 func Arg Arg Arg Arg Arg 19:09:35 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklopol. 19:09:49 oklopol: yes, but it would be passed as [arg arg arg arg arg ] or something 19:09:49 right? 19:09:58 yes 19:10:00 I mean, funcs are only unary or dyadic 19:10:01 so 19:10:04 what i'm saying is that's kludgey 19:10:09 i bet you can do it without implicit []s 19:10:13 REALLY support them 19:10:46 it's not kludgey, i disagree :) 19:10:57 anyway, going to the shop! 19:15:28 oklopol: :( 19:15:33 it iiiis kludgey 19:17:49 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:18:14 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:18:28 ehird: i don't see the point in not making it a list... only possibility for what i can imagine *actually supporting n-adic functions* might mean is having to match all args separately, which would only complicate stuff. 19:18:33 that was an obscure sentence, but anyway 19:18:35 i don't see the point 19:18:53 oklopol: but :( 19:19:41 :P 19:19:50 well tell me the advantages :) 19:19:59 oklotalk doesn't aim for conceptual perfection. 19:25:05 oklopol: well, implicit [] is just weird 19:25:10 what if you want to pass an array as the last param? 19:26:54 oklopol: = and -> are the only special cases rigt 19:27:05 and what is a ->node called? 19:27:07 = is an assignmentnode 19:27:09 what about -> 19:28:22 There are probably some languages where the empty program is a cat. Concatenative languages where the program is a function to turn input into output. 19:28:26 yes -- golfscript 19:29:48 and lazy k! 19:31:06 !dog god! 19:31:08 Huh? 19:31:12 !daemon dog bf ++++++++++[---------->,----------[>,----------]<[++++++++++.<]++++++++++.] 19:31:14 !dog god! 19:34:17 !undaemon dog 19:34:20 Process 1 killed. 19:34:20 !daemon dup bf ++++[->++++++++<]>>+[->,----------[>,----------]<[++++++++++<]>[.>]<[<]<.>>[.>]++++++++++.[<]+] 19:34:31 !dup !dup 19:34:42 GregorR: EgoBrokent 19:35:05 -!- oklofok has joined. 19:35:18 oklofok: foklo-ok 19:35:33 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:36:07 !ps 19:36:09 !ps d 19:36:10 2 ehird: ps 19:36:13 1 ehird: daemon dup bf 19:36:14 2 ehird: ps 19:36:19 !dup lulz 19:36:23 !undaemon dup 19:36:27 Process 1 killed. 19:36:49 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:40:44 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:41:16 oklopol: oko 19:46:00 oooko 19:46:09 ok 19:46:13 ;) 19:46:15 bb 19:46:31 ehird: [] is also list 19:46:53 okokokokoko 19:47:05 oklopol: okokokoko.. 19:50:33 -!- oklofok has joined. 19:50:51 ehird: [] is also list 19:50:54 yes 19:50:55 okokokokoko 19:50:55 but oko. 19:50:57 also you can up into singleton with ^ 19:50:59 in case those didn't come 19:51:01 okokoko 19:52:17 func [Arg Arg Arg] == func Arg Arg Arg 19:52:35 yes 19:52:37 ugly 19:52:41 oh no 19:52:41 but yeah 19:52:45 what is a ->node called 19:52:48 in two meanings 19:53:05 "oh no" as in "who cares", and "oh no", as in "oh dear god you're wrong" 19:53:19 hmm 19:53:26 hmmhmm 19:53:32 i fail to remember 19:53:50 match node, i'd say 19:53:52 okay 19:54:03 how is that ugly? 19:54:24 thing,list,1app,2app,match,assign,atom,var(subclass of atom),int,strnig 19:54:28 that's my ast 19:54:44 those are what i have, yeah 19:54:47 oklofok: is ($-> a b) a match node 19:54:50 or just (-> a b) 19:54:58 good point 19:55:02 only latter 19:55:57 oklofok: same with =? 19:56:05 yes 19:56:24 oklofok: what is (= a) 19:56:30 error 19:56:31 is it an unary application of = to a 19:56:33 or an error 19:56:33 OK 19:57:04 -!- oklopol has quit (No route to host). 19:57:11 oklofok: what about (-> a) 19:57:26 that's okay, i think. 19:57:32 oklofok: what does it mean 19:57:40 hmm... 19:58:22 match on a, just return what would've been returned if it weren't for the match 19:58:31 my implementation fails on that. 19:58:39 oklofok: returns [] 19:58:40 when you app it 19:58:41 :P 19:58:49 oklofok: are you sure it shoultn't be (-> a f) 19:58:50 yes, have no idea why, but lessee 19:58:51 or even an error 19:59:17 no.. not an error 19:59:34 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:59:41 you should be able to do stuff like (= _ [4 5]) (-> [a b]) (+ a b) 20:00:23 err 20:00:25 of not 20:00:35 hmmhmm 20:00:39 oklofok: i think (-> a) should be an error 20:00:51 its either redundant (and only 2 chars shorter than its replacement) OR useless 20:01:03 ah 20:01:04 right 20:01:20 it was just for assignment, (-> [$set tail]) etc 20:01:51 oklofok: yeah, that's kinda sucky 20:01:56 mostly you'll want to return tail or similar 20:01:56 s. 20:01:59 so 20:02:13 oklofok: my parser uses a neat trick 20:02:18 it can .pop() because it reverses the input 20:02:50 neat, neat 20:03:01 oklofok: did i mention my implementation uses unicode 20:03:08 hmmhmm, i think [] is a good thing to return, but i cannot quite see why my implementation does it 20:03:48 ah 20:04:00 that is one obscure way to make it return [] xD 20:04:15 also, try doing operations on the list 20:05:13 it's not an Lst, it's a python list :) 20:05:46 oklofok: haha 20:06:03 oklofok: my interp will have script capabilit 20:06:06 maybe even a COMPILER 20:06:07 into python 20:06:11 yes with continuations 20:06:56 i'm gonna make a compiler later, would you recommend java or python bytecode? :) 20:07:00 oklofok: is '2a' a valid atom 20:07:05 no 20:07:16 can't start with a number 20:07:24 but oklotalk-- has very retarded parsing rules 20:07:25 oklofok: :((( that sucks 20:07:28 yes 20:07:31 you should parse as a string 20:07:36 then if everything's a digit make it an int 20:07:37 ...as a string? 20:07:38 i see 20:07:49 oklofok: schemes do that 20:07:55 1+ is a valid id in a lot of them 20:08:00 ofc it is 20:09:02 anyway, i don't care much about that before you can extend syntax 20:09:21 i think i've come up with quite a nice way to do parsing for actual oklotalk 20:09:36 there will be a separate string type for strings with structure 20:09:41 well, list type ofc 20:11:05 will prolly integrate state lists, structured lists and pattern lists into just primitive lists later 20:11:11 but needs a lot of conceptual refinement 20:11:14 everything, really 20:13:41 oklofok: oko 20:15:49 oklofok: oops, atoms are special cases of vars 20:15:51 not the other way around 20:16:00 need a more generic name.. 20:16:01 NameNode 20:16:52 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 20:16:53 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:17:11 oklofok: what breaks a node? 20:17:18 is a2 'a2' or a,2 20:17:31 just whitespace,(,),{,},[,],",$? 20:17:32 or.. 20:17:38 yes 20:17:39 the latter 20:17:44 umm 20:17:49 once you start a name 20:18:26 it continues until one of the ending parens of whitespace 20:18:44 oklofok: does ( break it 20:18:47 (-> a(b c)) 20:18:49 no 20:18:51 that's okay 20:18:51 wtf 20:18:52 so that's 20:18:52 a(b 20:18:53 that sucks 20:18:55 totally 20:19:06 sure 20:19:13 oklofok: will you kill me if i break that 20:19:24 ok, what about " 20:19:27 i don't consider it relevant. 20:19:27 thats a closer AND an ender 20:19:28 a"b 20:19:37 and what about $ 20:19:59 i already said what the rules are :) 20:20:03 a"b is okay 20:20:22 this is trivial stuff, who cares, is my opinion 20:20:30 :) 20:20:46 it will be made sane once i actually *make a syntax* 20:21:02 anyway 20:21:07 so, oklofok: whitespace,),},] 20:21:09 for a clearer answer: yes, you can chan that 20:21:13 *change 20:22:02 the parser was whipped up in less than 10 minutes, before which i didn't have any idea how it should look. 20:22:10 oklofok: 2a is 2,a right 20:22:14 yes. 20:22:18 that i'm not gonna change 20:22:36 but indeed, i guess making opening brackets break tokens is a must 20:24:54 oklofok: is \n an escape sequence 20:24:55 or: should it be 20:25:10 it is, and should be 20:25:30 \t is not 20:25:36 and shouldn't be, atm 20:25:54 i despise the tab character 20:26:23 oklofok: why? 20:26:26 think about it this way 20:26:31 the tab has a semantic meaning for code 20:26:32 it means: 20:26:35 'we are indenting now, ok' 20:26:37 now 20:26:38 the problem is 20:26:45 that editors used to interpret that as '+N spaces' 20:26:50 instead of semantically 20:26:57 and people tried to use tabs for alignment 20:27:07 so now everyone uses soft spaces, and people can't decide how they want to look at code 20:27:12 and everything is less semantic 20:27:15 and quite a few bytes are wasted. 20:27:21 so in summary: 20:27:31 tabs rock, spaces suck. but the real world means we must use spaces 20:28:09 well i wasn't thinking about code, i'm more an ast level guy 20:28:17 tabs are nice for that yeah 20:28:24 but, i have other issues with them 20:29:02 oklofok: like. 20:30:07 let's not get into that 20:30:10 :) 20:30:20 oklofok: did tabs abuse you when you were young?!111212 20:30:24 :) 20:30:33 i have issues with a lot of things 20:31:01 oklofok: so is "\r" literally a backslash then an r 20:31:08 no 20:31:12 an error? 20:31:13 it is a syntax error 20:31:38 oklofok: just need to parse assignment and voila 20:31:40 i'm done with the parser 20:31:41 either have characters you need in source code or use the chr function for now. 20:31:43 then i haev to er, test it 20:31:55 well good for you 20:32:19 oklofok: :D 20:32:23 continuations, compilation.. 20:32:26 AWESOMETALK 20:32:28 -- 20:32:30 :) 20:32:55 Awesometalk without the -- will be THE BEST ENTERPRISE OKLOTALK 20:33:10 heh 20:33:31 oklofok: it will cost $32.99 20:33:36 and include a MEGA IDE 20:33:43 perhaps we can spend our lives making better and better oklotalk interps and compilers topping each other until i die of age.. 20:34:22 Either that. 20:34:27 Or we could buy cotton candy. 20:34:31 hmm 20:34:33 THE CHOICE IS YOURS 20:34:36 you make a decent point 20:34:53 It's quite a conundrum. 20:34:59 perhaps we can spend our lives making better and better oklotalk interps and compilers topping each other until i die of age.. 20:35:08 and trying to get people to actually use it 20:35:21 hmm... well then count me out :P 20:35:51 i don't care whether people use my stuff really 20:35:52 oklofok: imagine when google releases its first oklotalk application 20:36:11 this is the reason why i don't aim for perfection in the parsing rules etc. 20:36:23 oklofok: OH NO 20:36:26 I have not made lists yet 20:36:27 :P 20:36:32 oh 20:36:47 not hard 20:36:48 oh, right 20:36:50 i can just rip off the Thing code 20:37:08 you said something about it being lame that i use the python stack 20:37:14 i remember the reason now 20:37:20 what 20:37:37 it was just that you need to do oklotalk calls in pattern matching, and i hadn't taken that into account 20:37:46 so i'd have had to change the code a bit 20:38:02 oklofok: ah 20:38:03 so i just started over, and the randomizer in my head didn't do it stack-based again 20:38:23 >>> print parse('[a b c]')[0] 20:38:23 [a b c] 20:38:29 oklofok: an oklotalk parser in 1-3 man hours 20:38:33 of not much work 20:38:34 well 20:38:36 oklotalk-- 20:38:55 anyway, i'm pretty sure i could reimplement all of oklotalk much better now that i know the scoping/evaluation/parsing rules, so beware, i'll remake it if you finish yours, and it will own it. 20:38:58 hmm 20:39:03 some bad use of "it" 20:39:16 oklofok: oh sure ;p 20:39:22 but my oklotalk-- will support CALLING INTO PYTHON 20:39:32 though if you have this: 20:39:33 oklotalk-- parsing is about 10 man-minutes of work, i have no idea about oklotalk, as its syntax isn't even ready yet 20:39:46 oklofok: ah but i have very specific errors 20:39:49 anyway 20:39:52 oklotalk-- calls python --> python calls oklotalk-- -> oklotalk-- code 20:40:02 heh 20:40:05 the rightmost oklotalk-- code's continuations will only be up to the python one 20:40:14 since obviously you can't capture the python and upwards continuation 20:40:14 BUT 20:40:21 that's never ever gonna happen now is it :p 20:41:00 oklofok: damn, this parser works FIRST TIME 20:41:09 mine did too 20:41:11 i literally implemented 50% of it just now, without reloading 20:41:16 and it is all working, with nice error messages 20:41:17 crazy 20:41:24 i just wrote it, and assumed it worked :) 20:41:33 hmm 20:41:36 mine isn't hideously broken though 20:41:36 :)) 20:41:40 is mine? 20:41:43 don't think so 20:41:45 in error cases 20:41:46 yeah 20:41:53 i see 20:41:55 how exactly? 20:42:10 oklofok: it returns weird stuff 20:42:11 like lists 20:42:18 show example 20:42:22 mine always raisea n exception that has reasonable text 20:42:38 oklofok: also, yours is broken 20:42:43 show example 20:42:43 you cant pass a string as an argument 20:42:46 it tries to parse as an int 20:43:30 show example 20:43:36 oklofok: jesus christ 20:43:52 have no idea what you mean 20:43:55 well 20:43:57 look in logs 20:43:58 we found it 20:44:12 you mean (lol "asdasdads") 20:44:13 ? 20:44:33 have no idea what you mean 20:45:38 oklofok: look in logs 20:45:52 okay 20:45:53 parser done 20:45:58 now i guess i should do types 20:46:47 ehird: i won't, i'll just assume you're lying 20:46:49 :) 20:47:06 oklofok: ass 20:47:33 :: (error "DIE DIE DIE")16:40:55 20:47:33 An error: invalid literal for int() with base 10: 'DIE DIE DIE' 20:47:41 :: (+ "DIE DIE DIE" "oklotalk")16:41:18 20:47:41 An error: invalid literal for int() with base 10: 'oklotalk' 20:48:32 class Oko(object): 20:48:35 cutest code i've written all day 20:48:53 Okoer should be the interpreter class 20:48:55 but that's silly 20:48:56 hmm 20:48:57 okit 20:48:58 err 20:49:00 okoist 20:49:02 the first one is correct 20:49:07 second, doesn't err 20:49:30 oklofok: well its from logs 20:51:30 oklofok: should objects (okos) belong to okoists (interpreters) 20:51:32 or independent 20:53:00 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:53:00 -!- Deformative has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:53:00 -!- AnMaster has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:53:00 -!- GregorR has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:53:00 -!- Quendus has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:53:00 -!- Deformati has joined. 20:55:04 -!- AnMaster has joined. 20:55:22 -!- Quendus has joined. 20:56:43 anyone know the mail or something of ais 20:56:45 in an EXTREMELY silly way 20:56:47 #ifdef _POSIX_SOURCE \n #include \n #else \n #include \n #endif 20:56:49 well for some reason it does not define _POSIX_SOURCE on freebsd........ 20:59:17 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 21:01:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:05:38 ehird: strings, indeed, don't have much functionality in oklotalk--, mainly because i'm very lazy when it comes to the trivial stuff 21:05:47 but there is no parse error there 21:06:02 anyone know the mail or something of ais 21:06:11 as a matter of fact yes 21:06:19 -!- GregorR has joined. 21:06:32 oerjan, ah so I can send a bug report 21:06:36 thanks could you /msg it? 21:07:58 I don't know if that's where he wants bug reports though 21:08:33 just spit it out, man! 21:12:28 AnMaster: post to usenet 21:12:30 alt.lang.intercal 21:12:39 ehird, sent him a mail 21:12:49 /sigh 21:12:56 ehird, and I don't have any read/write news account 21:13:00 so I can't post it there 21:13:06 google offers them for free. 22:14:51 -!- Iskr has quit ("Leaving"). 22:18:25 Deewiant, WTF does the I of PERL fingerprint do 22:18:34 Deewiant, I looked at CCBI's code and it make no sense 22:29:12 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:47:21 -!- timotiis has joined. 22:53:34 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit. 23:09:39 hello chaps 23:09:52 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:11:22 oklofok: oh NO 23:11:23 parser BUG 23:11:52 fix'd 23:14:19 oklofok: soo 23:14:26 what's the general structure of your oklotalk-- interp? 23:14:31 does it have multiple interps at one time? 23:21:59 oklofok: ping 23:30:51 ... 23:40:29 oklofok: ping 23:44:12 pong 23:44:35 whaddyamean 23:44:39 multiple interps at one time? 23:44:42 i'm going to sleep btw 23:44:45 so be fast 23:45:18 to sleep, perchance to dream 23:45:36 heh 23:45:36 no you can't purchase my dreams 23:45:43 wish i could be ast 23:45:45 fast 23:45:50 but busy:((( 23:45:59 "multiple interps at one time"? 23:46:53 well 23:47:01 to answer what i think that sentence means... 23:47:17 the interpreter doesn't have interpreters at all, it only *is* one 23:47:23 oklofok: ok 23:47:25 so no, it doesn't have multiple interps at one time 23:47:30 so i cant have 2 'contexts' 23:47:34 oh 23:47:42 r=oklotalk.Runner() 23:47:49 aha 23:47:51 r.run(oklotalk_code) 23:47:52 thanks 23:47:54 :) 23:47:57 returns result, stores context 23:48:03 you can use that from the pyc of c 23:48:06 *ofc 23:48:11 oklofok: yeah 23:48:13 not that you didn't know that 23:48:18 hard to use python without the src though :)) 23:48:25 indeed. 23:48:25 its not really oriented to that 23:48:39 i told you about Runner, but quite briefly 23:48:53 whhell 23:48:56 you can just dir the modules 23:49:18 yeah 23:49:20 even so 23:49:41 oklotalk.run will run contextless pieces of code 23:49:55 in case you're really in a hurry! 23:50:09 :) 23:50:18 oklofok: i bet £999 that you won't actually go to sleep 23:50:22 anyway, night-o 23:50:23 :O 23:50:29 and that you'll stay here 23:50:30 ;) 23:50:31 YES I WILL 23:50:38 suuure 23:50:56 there's a naked chick next to me 23:51:04 still want to bet? 23:51:10 oklofok: ok, good point 23:51:13 i retract my bet 23:51:14 :) 23:51:29 whhhell, wouldn't be the first time i choose oklotalk over a chick 23:51:35 but let's hope i succeed 23:51:37 see ya 23:51:38 -> 23:51:42 oklofok: WHAT ABOUT SCOPING 23:51:48 ... 23:51:48 * ehird watches oklofok reappear 23:51:58 you're fucking evil. 23:52:02 totally 23:52:09 you know all about scoping, man 23:52:18 nah 23:52:24 what about dynamic container singletons 23:52:25 static, dynamic look-up if static finds nothing. 23:52:30 ...whut? :D 23:52:34 * oerjan still has doubts about the sleeping part 23:52:40 dunno, better make up a meaning 23:52:41 ok 23:52:42 dynamic 23:52:43 container 23:52:44 singletons 23:52:50 are containers 23:52:52 that contain a dynamic variable 23:52:55 and have set/get operations 23:53:02 a -dynamically scoped- variable that is 23:53:12 how does this interact with the stack? 23:53:28 hmph 23:53:40 err 23:53:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 23:53:46 can you be more spesific... 23:53:55 oklofok: its a structure 23:53:58 yes 23:54:00 but instead of contianing structure-local lexicals 23:54:06 it contains a dynamic variable reference 23:54:14 what's that, exactly, in oklotalk--? 23:54:17 can you code it? 23:54:31 oklofok: maybe, dunno how to do the exact forcing 23:55:02 scoping is only done for variables 23:55:13 oklofok: yes 23:55:15 i'm not sure what you mean here, so hard to say... 23:55:17 but its a variable INSIDE a structure 23:55:19 but i admit it 23:55:23 i'm just trying to keep you here 23:55:25 for me £999 23:55:25 inside it... 23:55:25 ;) 23:55:28 like {a} 23:55:29 srsly, go 23:55:29 :D 23:55:30 :D 23:55:32 asdasdf 23:55:34 oklofok: but 23:55:35 like 23:55:36 okay, okay... 23:55:38 ... 23:55:40 {(-> a ...)} 23:55:45 yarr 23:55:45 but a is dynamically scoped 23:55:47 and ... is {...} 23:55:52 umm 23:55:57 a isn't dynamically scoped 23:56:03 i know 23:56:04 it's bound by the pattern match 23:56:05 you force it to be 23:56:10 how? 23:56:14 by using the other expressions 23:56:15 like 23:56:27 {magic setting stuff, (-> z {...})) 23:56:30 and instead of z in the object 23:56:32 use magic getting stuff 23:56:45 the object 'contains' a dynamically scoped varialbe 23:56:59 i don't think you can do that. 23:57:05 but i'll really go now :D 23:57:07 see ya -> 23:57:29 :D 23:57:32 bye 23:58:30 oklofok: you are still here.