00:00:18 "Kubuntu." 00:00:21 Was I saying 00:00:28 OK: 00:00:31 get a terminal 00:00:41 and enchant thus: 00:00:43 I'm on it 00:00:46 sudo apt-get install sbcl 00:00:58 enter a 'pass~worde', and sit patiently 00:01:44 The enchantment is working. 00:02:28 Slereah: You are installing a compiler for the ancient~magick arts of Lithp, by the way. 00:02:58 Is it a gay language? 00:03:45 No. It's a language with a lot of parentheses. 00:03:59 You may have heard of it before ;) 00:04:56 Yes indeed. 00:07:04 Slereah: Installed? 00:07:20 It seems! 00:08:55 Slereah: run 'sbcl' 00:08:57 and do (+ 2 3) 00:09:02 check that it prints out the result correctly 00:09:34 5. Is that correct? I don't have my calculator at hand. 00:11:53 haha 00:15:23 Slereah: just getting a nice program runner 00:18:47 Slereah: won't be long ;) 00:19:16 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:19:37 So, what's the program? 00:20:52 Slereah: almost... 00:21:01 lisp is more suited to the REPL way, heh 00:21:05 i'm making it so you can do: 00:21:10 ./run.lisp blah.q 00:21:11 err 00:21:11 qq 00:31:15 -!- Asztal has joined. 00:33:56 Slereah: almost ready 00:38:23 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 00:40:34 OK Slereah 00:40:51 make a new directory 00:40:52 like 00:40:54 ~/qq 00:41:24 then, Slereah, download these files to these names in that dir: 00:41:26 http://rafb.net/p/nva8Do66.txt qq.lisp 00:41:39 http://rafb.net/p/ssdUo542.txt qq.asd 00:41:52 http://rafb.net/p/APz2d592.txt run.lisp 00:41:58 Slereah: Then, when you've done that, do: 00:42:00 chmod +x run.lisp 00:42:08 And you're ready to go. To run a qq program, just do: 00:42:15 ./run.lisp prog.qq 00:42:28 and voila 00:43:03 Heh. I usually do my interpreters in a copypasta form. 00:44:11 Slereah: But, got all that? 00:44:28 It is saved. 00:44:45 Did you do the chmod? 00:45:07 Yes. 00:45:10 What does it do? 00:45:20 Lets you run it as an executable 00:45:34 OK, put 0 7(6) in a file - say foo.qq 00:45:35 then do: 00:45:38 ./run.lisp foo.qq 00:45:44 and enter a character, and hit enter 00:45:57 it should say that character (though bumped before your prompt because it does not output a newline) 00:46:17 component :ITERATE not found, required by # 00:47:33 oshi 00:47:34 ok: 00:47:36 sbcl 00:47:37 then: 00:47:39 (require 00:47:41 err 00:47:42 then: 00:47:53 (require 'asdf) (require 'asdf-install) (asdf-install:install :iterate) 00:48:04 answer 2 to the first question, and 0 to the second 00:48:09 then, when it's done, exit sbcl 00:48:10 then try again 00:51:16 oerjan: ping 00:52:01 Slereah: is it working now? 00:52:34 gnip 00:52:59 oerjan: i released a qq interpreter 00:53:06 http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/bin/1201049292-qq-v1_0.tar.gz and check the README 00:53:12 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Huh.png 00:53:14 oh wait 00:53:16 i forgot the readme 00:53:17 A mystery 00:53:42 Slereah: bizzare. try in another dir 00:53:44 oerjan: reuploading 00:54:28 oerjan: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/bin/1201049491-qq-v1_0.tar.gz 00:54:30 Slereah: try with http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/bin/1201049491-qq-v1_0.tar.gz 00:54:46 oerjan: (will you? :P) 01:01:52 oerjan: aww ping 01:05:46 NOBODY CARES =( 01:05:57 pikhq, aer you alive? oklopol? :P 01:06:32 I'm writing sum article for Lazy Bird. 01:06:56 Slereah: WELL TEST THE NEW INTERP :P 01:07:00 And try in a different directory 01:07:47 It's late and all! 01:08:07 =( 01:08:14 Nope. 01:08:24 pikhq: HOW CAN YOU SAY NOPE IN REPLY TO THAT 01:08:25 that makes no sense 01:08:55 :) 01:09:27 pikhq: Download http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/bin/1201049491-qq-v1_0.tar.gz and read the README :P 01:09:32 Don't worry it's free software ;) 01:09:33 (MIT) 01:10:29 Well, I was about to give you lots of money, but... 01:11:13 Slereah: d'aww 01:13:52 don't worry, you can still buy it as part of my proprietary enterprise turnkey solution. 01:14:08 Asztal: brilliant 01:20:24 http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Lazy_Bird 01:20:26 Comments? 01:22:39 Slereah: lazy evaluation + IO = you need monads 01:23:49 this also solves your _ problem 01:24:46 I tried to read them monads. 01:25:50 It's not that easy! 01:26:54 no, but you'll get it eventualy 01:27:09 heh, we edited simultaneously and had an identical fix 01:27:14 and you'll have the most bloated type system in a combinator language as well as a nice way to do IO and state 01:27:19 (the # one) 01:27:20 oerjan: hey! you! try my qq interp! 01:27:26 NEVER 01:28:04 * Slereah does not know type system :( 01:28:13 Apart from the one in the Principia Mathematica 01:28:20 But I assume it isn't that helpful 01:28:34 btw is there any way to cause a currying integer to end up in a list? 01:28:50 otherwise they might be hard to duplicate 01:29:03 oerjan: please try it :( 01:29:32 Damn, I suck at English apparently. 01:29:57 oerjan: awww come on 01:31:23 er it requires a _specific_ CL interpreter? 01:32:05 nvg has cmucl which knowing them is probably old as sin 01:32:23 oerjan: run.lisp won't work 01:32:44 *invoke-debugger-hook* and similar should be ok 01:32:48 (locally (declare (sb-ext:muffle-conditions style-warning)) 01:32:52 you'll definately have to change that 01:33:01 posix-argv might have to change too 01:33:06 and SBCL is a compiler 01:37:17 oh wait 01:37:30 sbcl is there too :) 01:37:53 -!- uvanta has joined. 01:38:02 good 01:38:07 just: 01:38:11 read the README then 01:38:25 you have to do a fancy dance. 01:40:24 oerjan: is it going OK? 01:41:45 oerjan: ping 01:42:27 catching up with #haskell 01:42:45 although my naive attempt gave "Illegal variable name." 01:42:56 naive attempt at what? 01:43:05 the dance? 01:43:16 ./run.lisp prog.qq without any dance 01:43:24 (i did make a prog.qq) 01:43:26 do the dance. 01:43:28 see: README 01:43:38 also, make sure prog.qq is the example from the esolangs wiki, just to be sure 01:43:52 curiously i did 01:43:57 did what 01:45:02 make it that example 01:45:04 ouch 01:45:22 i reiterate 01:45:24 typing sbcl gives an error message (after a long banner) 01:45:27 haha 01:45:29 what error 01:45:39 could not open file "" 01:46:02 remove ~/.sblrc? 01:46:17 does not exist 01:46:37 what version does it say it is? 01:46:44 0.6.0 01:46:48 ouch 01:47:02 the lastest version is 1.0.13 01:47:02 :) 01:47:14 about as i expected 01:47:16 oerjan: pastebin everything from 'sbcl' to it dying 01:47:44 the unexpected thing was that cmucl was from 2007... 01:48:25 i still need the output to be able to help you usefully :) 01:48:28 and yeah that's pretty odd 01:48:37 evidently, some bias is in place :P 01:49:14 yep. nvg uses the university's custom package manager 01:49:16 -!- calamari has joined. 01:49:19 yow 01:49:23 evil university 01:49:37 there is a 0.9.16 version but it is not propagated 01:49:46 anyway do the pastebin thing :P 01:50:25 it is cross-platform, i guess is the one nice thing about it 01:51:07 hellooooo, pastebin 01:53:20 http://pastebin.com/m2e9abd8c 01:53:44 sbcl --help 01:54:36 why that gives after the banner: 01:54:37 fatal error encountered in SBCL runtime system: 01:54:38 GC invariant lost, file "gencgc.c", line 6157 01:54:39 LDB monitor 01:55:03 i think that version is a lost cause... 01:55:27 yes. 01:55:37 do you have any means of installing to perhaps ~/bin etc.? 01:55:44 wait, alternatively 01:55:46 take the dumb route 01:55:48 cmucl 01:55:49 let me check... 01:55:59 wait, no, you couldn't 01:56:01 asdf stuff. 01:57:19 oerjan: well, if you do manage, you can use my README etc 01:57:25 maybe i'll see a new qq program by tomorrow :P 01:57:27 good luck 01:57:41 -!- ehird has quit. 02:09:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:11:58 -!- boily has joined. 02:27:57 Well, I start my Calc II class tomorrow. . . :) 02:30:11 woohoo 02:30:49 Interestingly, it's a class offered online with recorded lectures. . . 02:30:54 But whatever. I has calculus! 02:31:10 perhaps it's just me, but my Calculus 2 course at MTU was not fun. Cryptography and Formal Models of Computation were both a blast. 02:31:59 I enjoyed Calc 1, so I suspect Calc 2 will be equally enjoyable. 02:34:34 For me, I really lost interest when Calc 2 bogged down in algebraic minutia revolving around integrals. I had the whole "Whoa, calculus is really just a few basic principles!" revelation in Calc 1, so I don't think there was much more for me to enjoy. 02:35:52 I'm much stronger in some areas of math than others, and really wicked algebra and algebra based on "guessing" or intuitively knowing things frustrates me no end. 02:36:42 Algebraic manipulation is something that comes easily to me. . . 02:36:50 As is quite a bit of math, really. 02:37:24 when explaining Factoring seemed to boil down to "...and then you try numbers until you find some that make this equation work", my reaction was essentially "If you cannot write an algorithm a computer would use to solve this, why am I expected to be capable of solving it?" 02:37:29 * pikhq remembers forgetting a few derivatives on a calc test, and therefore, as part of the work, had proofs of the derivatives of functions. :p 02:38:49 I also remember figuring out the derivative of x^x without it having been taught. . . 02:39:08 (I've since forgotten it. XD) 02:39:20 I can crunch through matrix operations wonderfully. They have a zenlike, mechanical feel to them. I enjoy how linear algebra can take ugly, complex problems and make them regular, clean solutions through straightforward algorithms 02:39:37 * pikhq won't comment 02:40:14 -!- boily has left (?). 02:52:00 * oerjan remembers having an epiphany with x^x and the multivariable chain rule 02:52:15 well, very vaguely 02:56:00 hey, let's watch a scientology orientation video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3094137170809569203&hl=en 02:59:22 the rhetoric is pretty impressive. Very clever stuff. 02:59:44 I always enjoy dissecting the arguments of religious nutcases. 03:10:34 -!- immibis has joined. 03:11:23 -!- immibis has left (?). 03:36:29 I enjoy dissecting the arguments of all nutcases. 03:38:21 religious arguments are to owl pellets as arguments are to dung 03:39:25 The music over the video of the various Scientology buildings serves to excite viewers, without actually giving any reasons for it. . . 03:39:49 And the claim of thousands of churchs is another show of illogic. 03:39:56 If you don't have time to watch the whole video, skip to the last 5 minutes- it's awesome 03:40:33 An appeal to God and Christianity in Scientology amuses me. 03:40:54 "THE GOVERNMENT WAS DEVELOPING MIND CONTROL BUT A HACK SCI-FI WRITER FOILED THEIR DASTARDLY PLANS. BUY HUNDREDS OF HIS BOOKS TO ACHIEVE NIRVANA OR FREEZE IN SPACE WHILE WE CHILL OUT WITH ALIENS OK" 03:40:58 And they make a big show of proving that they're a religion. 03:41:03 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 03:41:15 With patriotic music over it. 03:41:33 I'm watching this all the way through, because it's too damned amusing. 03:42:06 I like how they on one hand claim they're in opposition to the government's mind control programs, and then on the other hand use government investigations to justify being a legit religion 03:42:35 it's all a fantastic mindfuck 03:42:40 "L. Ron Hubbard is just a man." and they go on to imply that he's a minor diety. 03:42:57 exactly. 03:43:15 "Just a man. Like the Buddha. Or Jesus." 03:43:34 And the suits & ties are themselves implying that they speak from authority. . . 03:43:37 Ugh. 03:43:48 "We won't mention Muhammed as we don't like our churches to burn." 03:43:56 And they note that he had '65 professions'. 03:44:11 oerjan: lol 03:44:18 And they have a fucking *shrine* to his sci-fi. 03:44:22 you mean "Orgs", right? 03:44:35 they also have a shrine to him- keep watching 03:45:21 The mental gynmastics required in this is astounding. 03:45:34 And now, the conspiracy theory. 03:45:36 I knew you'd love it 03:45:55 I absolutely love anti-Scientology stuff. 03:46:03 I had no idea how *openly* crazy scientologists were before watching this 03:46:07 (I've read OT-I through III. Hilarious.) 03:46:12 I thought they tried harder to hide the crazy 03:46:44 And I love how they claim dianetics is available to all who want it. 03:46:56 Then why do they charge several billion? 03:47:07 I also love how in the beginning, they claim religion inherently makes sense because it has existed for thousands of years 03:47:08 And they make an appeal to the popularity of his books. . . 03:47:17 In a Scientologist bookstore. 03:47:22 yes 03:47:45 bah, I can't seem to seek to a specific point in the video. 03:48:24 * Asztal wonders why so many flash video players are so terribly bad at this seemingly simple task 03:48:38 "L. Ron Hubbard's words are truth." "He mad revision after revision after revision." 03:48:45 haha 03:49:26 pikhq: lmao 03:49:28 And the *basics* of Scientology? 10 hard-cover, glossy books. 03:49:48 "You, too, can be a scientologist! Just send $1,000 to us!" 03:49:49 "why do my arguments always sound stupid when you rephrase them?" 03:49:53 LMAO 03:50:06 just wait for the dude with charts on how your personality can be improved 03:50:32 I'm loving how they claim that all the different Orgs are completely independent. 03:50:53 Then how do they have that much pooled funds? 03:51:00 the kicker is "legally independent". That's very good planning. 03:51:22 Ah. 03:51:31 Legally independent is just clever legality. 03:51:57 "We don't worship Ron. We just have an office for a dead man in every Org." 03:52:21 EXACTLY! 03:52:39 I laughed out loud at that part 03:53:07 I'm really loving the Religious Technology Center. 03:53:29 "We give it out to everyone! That's why we charge up the wazoo!" 03:53:41 Also, they claim they serve to prevent the 'tech' from being changed. 03:53:59 Note that Ron has 'written' books post-mortem. ;) 03:54:22 fascinating 03:54:34 I wonder which office his spirit uses 03:55:02 Those graphs are so fake & laughable. 03:55:54 They don't even *try* to hide the crazy. 03:56:14 More conspiracy theory! 03:56:18 Anti-psychology, this time. 03:56:48 And claiming that Scientology, if allowed to work, makes the world perfect. 03:56:53 'Brilliant!' 03:57:22 And another hardcover book they recommend for beginners! 03:57:52 That's $1,100 and counting. (I'm assuming, from the pictures and knowledge of the church, that these are college textbook-priced.) 03:58:36 "Scientology: cures what ails ya!" 03:59:28 And they still have yet to even *define* Scientology. 03:59:34 At 23 minutes in. 04:01:14 And are they claiming that all denominations are welcome at the CoS?' 04:01:37 And another book, with a leather and gold cover. . . 04:01:42 $1,300 or so. 04:01:53 leather + gold = credibility 04:02:41 And they're going back to the "Scientology *is* a religion!" bit. 04:03:54 "Scientology helped me!!!" claim people. 04:03:58 But *how*? 04:04:26 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E <- this is a great follow-up 04:04:55 It's like Scientology 101 is "Saying words without saying anything". 04:05:40 "If you leave this room after seeing this film and walk out and never mention Scientology again, you are perfectly free to do so. It would be stupid, but you can do it. You can also dive off a bridge or blow your brains out. That is your choice." 04:05:44 This is even more vague than fortune cookies, for $diety's sake! 04:06:22 Almost to the last 5 minutes. . . 04:06:28 I assume the crazy goes to 11 there? 04:06:45 *Another* book! 04:06:54 The total is $1,400 for recommendations. 04:06:57 the last couple minutes are pure gold 04:07:44 And after half an hour, that video does not explain what Scientology *is*. 04:08:18 "Materialistic Science has not disproven god or the spirit - they just say there isn't one" 04:08:28 "Arise above the decay." 04:08:40 "You are an immortal being." 04:08:47 Yeah, the crazy has hit 11. 04:09:25 it hits at least 12 at the end 04:09:43 (at least most religions put this up front, as a given. Scientology claims that "... therefore, you're immortal, QED.") 04:10:04 ever woken up from a dream to continue it for a while while awake? i just woke up, and actually felt someone hit their teeth deep inside my skull, and actually started fighting back, at least for about 10 sec before i realized there was no one there 04:10:46 "What's true is what is true for you." 04:10:52 Ooooooh, Orwell! 04:12:04 Those last 2 minutes are too damned crazy to describe. 04:12:21 I like huxley's version. something like "6742 repetitions equals one truth." 04:12:39 That is a good version, yes. 04:13:26 and really, scientology is closer to a Brave New World than 1984 for a variety of reasons. They just need soma. 04:14:36 I know, but that one line was also quite Orwellian. 04:14:45 I always though Brave New World was a more frightening book, because people do it to themselves. THX-1138 is chilling for the same "watchers watching watchers" type of reason. 04:14:57 Brave New World was *damned* chilling. 04:15:18 1984 was eerie, but BNW is *scary*. 04:17:52 1984's scariest moments come as the agents in MiniLuv wear down and destroy Winston's mind. 04:18:32 And just considering the depths of meaning in the name "Ministry of Love" can give me chills. 04:20:24 Agreed. 04:20:35 great quote from hubbard himself: "Did you ever read poor old George Orwell's uh.. 1984? Yes, yes, that's wonderful. That would be, could be, the palest imagined shadow of what a world would be like under the rule of the secret use of Scientology with no remedy in existence" 04:21:11 Miniluv is where all the truly *freaky* shit happens: even the very *mind* is changed. 04:21:19 *shudder* 04:21:34 "He loved Big Brother." is, to me, the scariest thing in that whole book. . . 04:21:47 but at the heart of MiniLuv, of course, is room 101. 04:22:22 "if you want a crystal clear vision of the future, imagine a boot stomping on a human face, forever." 04:22:55 Now, this room feels like I'm in an English class that I'd actually care about. :p 04:23:44 wanna talk about Lord of the Flies? God, I loved that book. 04:23:50 It really spoke to me. 04:23:56 That's another good one. 04:24:05 I hated how my English class taught it though. 04:24:13 "What is the symbolism of the shell?*" 04:24:25 "To think that the beast was something that could be hunted and killed... I've been with you all along..." <- fucking goosebumps every time 04:24:34 Who gives a fuck? The interesting thing is the discussion of what a beastial creature man can be. 04:24:47 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 04:24:51 breaking books into symbolism like that completely destroys the fun of reading them 04:25:02 Absolutely. 04:25:10 It also distracts from the meaning of the book. . . 04:25:44 I'm enjoying my current English class, just because it asks not "what's the symbolism of foo bar and baz", but "What does this mean, and why?" 04:25:50 I can handle that. 04:25:57 Anyways, Lord of the Flies. 04:26:54 my favorite aspect of the book is the ending, when you think about it 04:27:07 * pikhq nods. . . 04:27:25 It's been a while, but I think I remember that ending. Kids get discovered by pilots, IIRC. 04:27:52 naval officers rescue the kids, and they instantly come to their senses. But the true irony is that the officers themselves are getting ready to RETURN TO A WAR. The implication is, "who's going to snap the *adults* out of it?" 04:28:10 Oh, yeah. . . 04:28:20 Probably the only way that story could sanely end. 04:28:54 * pikhq wonders why more assigned books in English couldn't have such interesting implications. . . 04:29:11 because most of what we read is really shit. 04:29:21 -!- EgoBot has joined. 04:29:31 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:29:36 Jane Eyre, Great Expectations, the Great Gatsby... eugh. 04:29:51 Instead, we get books like 'Bless Me Ultima', which is about half hallucinations, and half meaningless. 04:29:54 I kinda liked "One day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich" 04:30:21 Never heard of it. 04:30:32 "Crime and Punishment" was kinda decent, but it felt really drawn out and I have difficulty enjoying a book where you're *supposed* to hate the narrator. Plus the ending was horrible. 04:31:06 "BUT IT'S OK, BECAUSE HE REPENTED, FOUND JESUS AND WILL MARRY A HOOKER WITH A HEART OF GOLD!" 04:31:19 *groan* 04:31:22 talk about tripping on the finish line there 04:31:36 the dude MURDERED two people, one of which was a really nice person! 04:31:56 And he was an insanely egotistical asshole! 04:32:03 * pikhq wonders: would you call Hemingway any good? 04:32:15 We just started doing stuff on Hemingway, so. . . 04:32:31 I liked "Old man and the sea" and "Of Mice and Men" 04:32:46 "Of Mice and Men" was pretty good, IIRC. 04:32:51 the grapes of wrath was rather dull, but it had it's moments. That was another WTF ending. 04:33:02 Not read that one. 04:33:03 His short stuff was the best, really 04:33:28 And "Of Mice and Men" and "Grapes of Wrath" are Steinbeck, not Hemingway. 04:33:44 don't bother with the grapes of wrath, but read "the old man and the sea" sometime. Actually, you could probably run through it on project gutenburg in a couple hours. 04:33:51 argh, crap 04:34:03 I was thinking totally in the wrong direction there 04:34:07 We're doing Hemingway's short fiction here. 04:34:10 that makes me feel really stupid. 04:34:22 "The Old Man and the Sea" is genuinely Hemingway, though. ;) 04:35:03 hunh. I guess the styles reminded me of one another. 04:35:10 Length probably helped. 04:35:22 From what I've read of both of them, their simplistic style *is* similar. . . 04:35:35 Hemingway's seems a bit more spare, though. 04:38:47 yes! I found it! 04:38:57 this is the cover of my copy of Lord of the Flies: 04:38:57 http://static.flickr.com/119/300643227_7c903a0d7d.jpg 04:39:12 It's very simple, but it so perfectly describes the mood of the book 04:39:16 Agreed. 04:40:24 something like this just doesn't do the book as much visceral justice: http://www.shopholyokenews.com/shop/shopimages/products/normal/9780399501487.JPEG 04:43:10 *That's* the latest one? 04:43:19 What the hell are they thinking? 04:43:38 The book has torment, not a fly mounted on a kid! 04:46:40 old man and the sea wasn't good, lord of the flies wasn't good... though 04:46:45 *-though 04:49:23 oklopol: :< 04:49:25 well, old man and the sea had an interesting idea... lord of the flies i just found plain bad 04:49:52 i can't stand books based on idiots fighting over nothing. 04:50:06 even if they're kids and that seems probable to actually happen 04:51:10 it's an exploration of human nature 04:51:24 i know 04:51:52 I suspect it's a book more easily enjoyed by those who read remarkably obsessively. 04:51:56 and the main characters represent different archetypes- mysticism, repressed violence, authority, intellectualism 04:52:07 yep, i hate all that 04:52:15 using the name "roger" is actually some really great biblical symbolism 04:52:27 too black and white characters 04:52:31 * pikhq will probably pick up his book-a-day habit again in college 04:52:45 if you recall, "roger" in LotF became the torturer- "a stick sharpened at both ends". 04:53:11 Biblically, the name "roger" means "he who carries the spear" 04:53:22 i, on the other hand, have decided never to read a fictional book again :D 04:53:35 You are a *freak*. 04:53:53 (as in, the roman soldier who supposedly stabbed christ out of mercy) 04:54:02 it's very interesting to think about 04:54:13 You'll take my fiction from my cold, dead fingers. 04:54:31 I also like the fact that they never make it fully clear what roger does to people- it makes it all the more chilling. 04:54:36 well, i do sometimes enjoy modern stuff 04:54:42 strangler ficus was quite good 04:55:00 not sure what the original name is, that's just a crude translation 04:55:01 On a different note: Mmm. The Time Machine. 04:55:30 RodgerTheGreat: i don't remember at all who roger was anymore 04:55:58 so i'm missing the point a bit :< 04:58:02 he's one of Jack's followers. He's described as a dark child, with many scenes painting him as having deeply sadistic tendencies. As I said, he later becomes Jack's torturer, wielding "a stick sharpened at both ends", which he uses to do something unspeakable to those that oppose Jack. 04:59:02 lol i don't remember anything... guess i should read it again. 04:59:12 anyway, i don't find biblical references that interesting 04:59:17 Sodomy is sometimes called the sin which a Christian cannot say :P 04:59:31 One could also call it ... unspeakable ... :P 05:01:28 GregorR: it's possible, but it's pretty obvious that leaving whatever he did unspoken is much better from a dramatic perspective than just telling the reader 05:01:43 Heh 05:02:24 and that wouldn't necessarily require a stick. Even if the obvious explanation there held, it wouldn't explain why it was sharpened at two ends. 05:02:35 i can imagine the book getting a better status with a long gay rape scene! :D 05:03:13 Plus there are significantly more painful, if not more dehumanizing, forms of torture, like the veritable cornucopia of things that can be done to the human body with bamboo. 05:04:22 RodgerTheGreat: link! 05:04:41 That's !quote-worthy :P 05:05:16 I dunno of any off the top of my head, but a popular one is sharpened bamboo shoots inserted underneath fingernails and toenails. I understand it's excruciating. 05:05:38 yeah, i never really believed in that 05:05:47 had a lot of stuff under my nails 05:06:08 You've never had anything stabbed just a liiiitle bit too far? 05:06:08 -!- adu has joined. 05:06:11 It's pretty damn painful. 05:06:17 hmm 05:06:32 may have just been too shallow in 05:06:38 you can also split it and whip people with a stalk- every bit as painful and damaging as a cat-o-nine tails 05:06:40 hi oklopol 05:06:55 hi adu 05:07:02 oh god... i forgot what you asked me :< 05:07:04 i've been working on my language 05:07:14 oklopol: what did I ask you? 05:07:16 when dry bamboo is cut axially, it gets really, *really* sharp 05:07:32 (for wood, obviously) 05:07:36 RodgerTheGreat: what have you been reading? :P 05:07:46 I dabble in many things. :) 05:07:49 adu: i don't remember, it was quite a lot of time ago. 05:08:08 oklopol: I actually saved that chat, I could pull it up :) 05:08:17 haha, do that! 05:08:27 i've been trying to answer you for ages :-) 05:08:43 i get a bit obsessed about not being able to answer a question 05:09:05 [23:17] adu: what new thing? 05:09:05 [23:17] oklopol: not a programming language 05:09:15 is that it? 05:09:20 nope 05:09:22 after 05:09:44 [23:18] oklopol: with happy bouncing balls! 05:09:47 you asked something, then said "nevermind, i have to leave" 05:10:02 :) 05:10:37 you saying there's no question there? :\ 05:11:04 ooh, found a new one: http://www.answers.com/topic/chinese-bamboo-torture 05:11:28 q 05:11:46 the whole "wanna buy some bamboo art?" thing on the right makes that article pretty funny 05:12:22 adu: i need to see the log, what day was that? 05:12:50 "acupuncture diagram" 05:13:03 "chinese torture" 05:13:29 10:50:21 adu: what do you mean "part of a single model"? 05:13:31 is that it? 05:13:41 :\ 05:13:44 i don't think so 05:14:34 11:05:41 what is "koed"? 05:14:49 pikhq: more scientology goodies: http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-6812164614976718979 05:14:50 ah. 05:14:57 yes, just found that myself too 05:15:04 "koed" == "code" 05:15:07 oo 05:15:16 ic 05:15:28 anyways I've been working on my hash-lang 05:15:38 hash-lang? 05:15:44 For the longest time I've been debating about Patterns and Symbols 05:15:48 ya 05:15:56 everything is a hash-table basically 05:16:03 if statements are like this: 05:16:25 {True: texpr; False: fexpr}.(x == "fish") 05:17:13 makes sense. After all, one definition of a function is simply a set of mappings from input to output. 05:17:21 {#t: texpr; #f: fexpr} (X == "fish") 05:17:27 (okloyalk) 05:17:29 *t 05:17:35 err 05:17:40 s/:/-> 05:17:45 But if you allow hashtables to have Defaults and Patterns and Order 05:17:50 then you have everything 05:17:56 :) 05:18:05 oklotalk does the same, but the functions are actually functions :-) 05:18:19 but i like hashtables 05:18:38 well, PatternDefaultHashTables are like functions 05:18:53 heh yeaaaah 05:18:56 oh, actually 05:18:57 square = {\x: x*x} 05:19:12 hashtables make a bit more sense if they're mutable. 05:19:17 oklotalk has mutable functions :D 05:19:36 nice 05:20:06 pikhq: the fascinating thing about these interviews with steven fishman is that he appears to display rational thought GIVEN that you accept the writings he's read as truth. This is pretty much textbook schizophrenia. 05:20:42 ...or "faith" as the case may be. 05:20:42 who is Steven? 05:20:47 Thanks. . . Hmm. 05:20:55 I dunno, some guy brainwashed by L. Ron Hubbard. 05:21:13 who is Hubbard? 05:21:33 a mediocre science fiction writer and creator of a highly successful cult/religion 05:21:42 Said cult is called Scientology. 05:21:57 not just a finction writer! also an AVIATOR 05:22:12 *fiction 05:22:39 oklopol: Their shrine to him claims that he had over 60 professions. 05:22:56 WOW 05:22:59 he must be right 05:23:09 i'll go join the cult now 05:23:14 oklopol: that depends 05:23:29 what does Mr. Fishman claim? 05:23:30 That's really creepy. 05:23:40 Standard Scientology fair. 05:23:49 http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-6812164614976718979 <- you can watch if you'd like 05:23:51 s/fair/fare/ 05:24:43 i'm actually quite terrified by even the normal religious people coming to my door 05:24:50 i don't think i'd make a good cultist 05:25:02 Poison. . . Milk. 05:25:16 I've never had door-to-door Jesus solicitors. 05:25:31 I have. 05:25:52 i was just told the other day about "god having set the variables of the world" 05:25:56 I might enjoy that if I could trip them up logically. 05:26:02 Even I, as a Christian, am tempted to respond with "Sorry, you're interrupting my human sacrifice. Could you make this quick?" 05:26:19 and they were a bit worried i might believe in that "evolution thing" 05:26:29 RodgerTheGreat: You can only trip people up logically if their argument has logic. 05:26:55 GregorR: therein lies the problem 05:26:58 RodgerTheGreat: When they've totally exempted themselves from the rules of logic and reason, you really have no weapon. Except for bullets. 05:27:29 hmm 05:27:33 watching vidieo 05:27:33 i could never tell someone their whole life has no point :\ 05:27:46 even if they wouldn't believe me 05:28:32 especially if it's an old woman... i feel it's better not to upset them during the little time they have 05:28:46 "How did you exteriorize yourself then?" "Well, I just located myself in space and time. Then I produced a beam. I was vaccilating." 05:28:51 wow 05:28:59 :D 05:29:07 then i produced a beam xD 05:29:25 Holy crap. I knew they were crazy, but the crazy goes to 110!!! 05:29:39 pikhq: again, I knew you'd like it 05:30:02 I'm convinced that you and I have similar tastes. . . 05:30:09 vaccilate? 05:30:10 Excepting OS choice, of course. 05:30:25 hey, everyone likes a religious freak ;) 05:30:35 vacillate? 05:30:44 oklopol: yeah, probably a typo 05:31:15 i'm fairly sure cults are just for the entertainment of the people with a brain. 05:31:29 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:32:13 "You don't need your eyes to see." 05:32:33 So, he wouldn't mind if I removed them? 05:32:51 pikhq: you take things to litterally 05:33:02 much of spirituality is linguistic metaphors 05:33:11 In this case, he's being literal. 05:33:19 yep, it doesn't mean anything, and it doesn't have to 05:33:20 ! 05:33:24 Huh? 05:33:26 technically speaking, there's a grain of truth to that. "MInd's Eye", or audiovisual scratchpad, depending which model of cognition you subscribe to. :) 05:33:39 He is literally saying that he can leave his body, and see without his eyes. 05:33:47 RodgerTheGreat: That's not quite what he's discussing. 05:33:49 ;) 05:33:51 what's wrong with the topic 05:34:09 this is plausible, but it's very difficult to be certain what is metaphor and what is not 05:34:17 it's a rich memetic tapestry 05:34:57 There is only 1 outwrite falsehood I've encountered so far 05:35:12 (outright) 05:35:15 hehehe 05:35:19 :P 05:35:27 it's very interesting, and disturbing at the same time 05:35:37 elegantly constructed, this worldview 05:35:56 RodgerTheGreat: his worldview is not unique 05:36:06 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 05:36:15 For a while, I've thought it would be interesting to create a discipline called "Memetic Engineering" 05:36:24 is it? i thought it's rather simple and boring 05:36:26 RodgerTheGreat: there are elements of his worldview scattered throughout all world Religions 05:36:28 err 05:36:37 adu: but it was constructed, in this case by L. Ron Hubbard. 05:36:42 "thought" not as in "my opinion is" 05:37:07 I view religions of all kinds as a type of organism, but in this case they are generally built purposefully, at least at first 05:37:38 An organism composed not of matter, but of ideas, and living not in the physical universe, but in the minds of human communities 05:38:15 "the viruses of mind" 05:38:16 it's like a computer virus- a little bit alive, although existing in an entirely artificial universe 05:38:20 precisely 05:38:27 or, as I like to say, memetic viruses 05:38:36 yep, that's an interesting way to put it. 05:38:57 science is a memetic virus, too, as is the square knot and written language 05:39:14 my two favorite sources of rational mind candy are: 05:39:14 ideas with utility reproduce 05:39:15 http://anewlife.org 05:39:20 http://www.geohanover.com/philo.htm 05:39:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. and dlte ur files. thx."). 05:39:51 science is kinda like the virus in Phenomenon, makes you better and better until you soon die of it 05:40:00 oops, i forgot http://fusionanomaly.net/ 05:40:10 or the metavirus of Snow Crash. :) 05:40:18 whats Snow Crash? 05:40:19 hmm, what's that? 05:40:26 a great sci-fi book 05:40:38 well, obviously, but can you describe it? 05:41:10 Its... very complicated. It's one of my favorite books, so I don't think I could reduce it very well- check out the wiki article 05:43:14 but what I find interesting, as a fundamental difference between science and religion, is that one's very existence is defined by change, while another has intricate mechanisms designed to impede change and maintain a constant memetic genome. 05:44:10 and memetic viruses, like biological viruses, cannot stand alone- they function together with a complex network of other ideas and logical frameworks 05:45:11 hmm... religions can live for quite long without new religions though 05:45:41 I consider a "worldview" to be the sum total, roughly, of memes hosted by an individual 05:45:58 mmmyeah 05:46:11 oklopol: I think you misinterpreted my statement. Science is defined by change, and religions are designed to minimize mutation 05:46:24 written language, and written scriptures are one such mechanism 05:46:25 i know 05:46:57 oh 05:47:09 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric: The best channel for ridiculous religious arguments on FreeNode!. 05:47:17 :D 05:47:22 The study of religions can be very interesting, but I don't think many theologians would take kindly to my mechanistic way of thinking about them 05:47:42 GregorR: I dunno, I don't think we're really having an argument, at least not yet 05:47:52 so I'll quit while I'm ahead- 'night, everyone 05:48:01 the problem is i agree with you almost completely 05:48:10 so... hard to make an argument. 05:48:16 yeah- so it's a discussion 05:48:38 indeed, execpt i prefer watching you go than contributing myself. :) 05:48:47 so it's a lecture! :) 05:49:05 *Except 05:49:07 *Except 05:49:10 ... 05:49:19 well, I appreciate you listening, but as I said I need sleep 05:49:23 *except 05:49:28 yep, nights 05:50:20 " and memetic viruses, like biological viruses, cannot stand alone- they function together with a complex network of other ideas and logical frameworks" <<< my mistake was for some reason thinking you especially meant religions by this. 05:50:41 just btw. 05:51:19 on the contrary, religions are exceptionally self-sufficient (although not completely) 05:52:09 and most religions are exclusive, so they obviously don't need other religions to thrive. ;) 05:52:47 they just need other religions as evolutionary pressure, to become resilient 05:53:41 well that video what certainly entertaining 05:54:11 Aparently scientology metaphors are so numerous, there are various dictionaries exclusively for it 05:54:16 RodgerTheGreat: indeed, that was what i found weird about it. 05:54:46 adu: There's probably several thousand dollars worth of books needed just to figure out what Scientology is. 05:54:52 -!- cherez has joined. 05:54:56 (I cheat. Project Clambake = w00ts.) 05:54:59 pikhq: lol 05:55:49 i'm too much a behaviorist to really care what "scientology is" 05:56:22 Obviously, its the study of "scient" 05:57:29 cherez: You took Latin. Tell us. 05:57:45 Pikhq What's up? 05:57:55 Scientology. Etymology. 05:57:56 Go. 05:58:01 adu: Bravo X-D 05:58:15 'tology is Greek-based. 05:58:15 * pikhq mashes go on that Cherez again 05:58:19 Ah. 05:58:26 * pikhq still mashes go on that Cherez 05:58:36 is 'nomy latin? 05:58:42 Scient* though, comes from the Latin scientia meaning knowledge. 05:58:42 of greek too 05:58:46 *or 05:58:53 Is Ig-pay Atin-lay Latin? 05:58:55 Greek, I believe. 05:59:07 IGPAY ATINLY IS GREEK!!! :D 05:59:09 :p 05:59:12 The first day of my Latin class someone did ask that. 05:59:19 LMAO 05:59:25 X-D rocks! 05:59:43 "Christian Science and Scientology are not related. Christian Science is antasy, Scientology is sci-fi." 05:59:49 *fantasy 06:01:01 Scientology would come out literally to something like "the study of knowledge." 06:01:44 lolol 06:01:51 I love security check #101 06:01:55 "101. HAVE YOU EVER CAUSED A PLANET TO DISAPPEAR?" 06:02:07 wut? 06:02:12 Aside from how mixing langauge rootsi s generally a no-no.... 06:02:14 lol 06:04:26 from the " Operation Clambake" site 06:05:10 Operation Clambake is a beautiful site. 06:05:48 no, Wikipedia is a beautiful site 06:07:47 Why the A x 89 in the title? 06:09:43 -!- GregorR has set topic: TOPIC NOSTALGIA! 'Why is there an 'L' in Noel? || Because "Noël" is prettier than an "L"? Errr... || Celebrate Mungday!'. 06:09:45 Because you're not the boss of me. 06:10:05 -!- GregorR has set topic: TOPIC NOSTALGIA! (topic from 2004/01/05) 'Why is there an 'L' in Noel? || Because "Noël" is prettier than an "L"? Errr... || Celebrate Mungday!'. 06:10:42 i don't get it 06:10:51 http://www.dresdencodak.com/cartoons/dc_038.html Get it. 06:14:27 actually you make a good point, if scientology doesn't make claims, it isn't anything 06:14:58 just a healing label :D 06:17:10 umm 06:17:19 to be honest, i still don't get it :D 06:18:57 -!- uvanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:19:33 -!- uvanta has joined. 06:20:04 anyways 06:20:19 oklopol: wanna hear what I came up with today for my lang? 06:20:28 yes 06:20:37 A syntax for patterns and symbols 06:20:57 pattern identifiers can be used for whatever the pattern has matched 06:21:05 and symbols will only match that symbol 06:21:06 hmm 06:21:12 \pattern 06:21:16 /symbol 06:21:17 pattern identifiers? 06:21:21 ya 06:21:23 like in lambda 06:21:28 \x:x*x 06:21:43 right 06:21:45 x is a pattern that matches whatever you give it 06:21:45 yeah 06:21:57 \[a,b]:a*b 06:22:10 will only match a list of two "whatever"s 06:22:17 yep 06:22:34 do you have something like haskell's @? 06:22:47 but /e:(exp 1) will only match E 06:22:55 er i mean "e" 06:23:07 i hate it when pattern matches lack that, or, similarly, an imperative language lacks an "=" whose result is a normal value 06:23:42 oklopol, not yet, but i'm thinking about it 06:24:11 that's a very fundamental idea, good if you had it yourself, but many have had it before you 06:24:20 if it was just that match/set distinction 06:24:28 I like Haskell's @ as well :) 06:26:07 i've realized that not going to school has actually been bad for me... when i'm at school, i get millions of ideas, but i can't code, so i get nothing done... but at least i have stuff to write in the evening... if i don't go anywhere, i'm on the computer, but i have no ideas :D 06:26:31 oklopol: i understand completely 06:26:48 Hearing teachers talk about anything gets me thinking 06:26:54 "..." has become my period, i now realize... "." is just too little when you don't capitalize. 06:27:11 like listening to my spech class teacher, made me want to write a database 06:27:21 yeah, usually it's not even remotely related to whatever they're saying 06:27:24 just like that 06:27:26 listening to my art teacher made me want to write a typeseting language 06:28:02 yep, had a lecture about b-trees, and i had this idea about a network-shared tuplespace 06:28:12 lol 06:28:33 have I told you about my 2 favorite spaces? 06:28:36 http://www.vjn.fi/index.php?app=0 hat! 06:28:52 nope you haven't 06:28:57 or then you have and i don't remember 06:29:17 FungeSpace, ZZSpace, and possibly the exponential magma over finite sets 06:29:42 fungespace? infinite dimensions? 06:29:47 hmm 06:29:58 like the funge in befunge 06:30:15 i haven't done befunge really, or any 2d language 06:30:56 http://xanadu.com/zigzag/ 06:30:57 http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html 06:31:04 hat is awesome, it's a chat with two commands, setting a variable, and checking the value of a variable 06:31:24 you can have any number of users, and they all share the hashmap! 06:31:43 (5 is the maximum, though, any number just sounds better) 06:32:46 i feel graphs are the ultimate datastructure 06:33:09 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magma_(algebra) 06:34:09 oklopol: then how do you represent 2D rectangular arrays? 06:34:26 i can show the graphica program again 06:34:50 yey 06:35:31 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p352542264.txt 06:35:49 just have (x,y) connect to (x+1,y) and (x,y+1) 06:36:12 that' 06:36:23 *that notation will be present in graphica later 06:38:04 ok, how do you select all elements in the second column? 06:38:28 {x y <-> x+1 y <-> x y+1} most likely 06:38:28 (for the notation, that is) 06:38:28 umm, you can't do that yet in graphica 06:38:36 but, it's simple to explain 06:38:38 ic 06:38:47 so 06:39:00 this graph here does not understand the concept of right and left 06:39:23 but those can easily be added 06:39:52 you know how ZigZag Space does it? 06:39:58 no. 06:40:20 every arrow is labelled with a # of a dimension and a sign 06:40:33 umm what? 06:40:46 arrow as in edge? 06:40:47 i.e. positive in the y direction, negative in the z direction 06:40:55 i mean, is it something that connects two things 06:40:55 directed edge 06:40:58 yes 06:41:00 yep 06:41:10 umm, wtf 06:41:22 dimension? graphs go way beyond that.. 06:41:34 without any labels. 06:41:36 technically all edges are "undirected" but somehow know which one is "more positive", which mathematically implies a directed edge 06:41:52 in ZZ 06:42:01 undirected edges can simulate a directed edge, naturally. 06:42:09 how? 06:42:21 trivial, but a bit hard to explain on irc 06:42:24 basically 06:42:25 heh 06:42:34 you have N---N for an edge 06:42:39 ok 06:43:12 replace each edge with N-f-r-N, where f and t are nodes whose number of connections differentiate them from each other 06:43:23 f=from 06:43:24 t=to 06:43:27 oic 06:43:32 interesting 06:43:45 kind of inefficient, but interesting 06:43:56 i've come up with quite an intuition about graphs 06:44:09 they're awesome 06:44:24 yep, but inefficiency is the way to beauty 06:44:34 you should add the ability to import RDFS 06:44:46 you see, after you know that can be done, you don't have to do it, just keep in mind what you are simulating when adding features. 06:44:50 RDFS? 06:45:06 http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-schema/ 06:45:38 left, right, up and down can be done in a similar fashion, which makes it easy to go "down" 06:45:50 and don't forget http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/ 06:46:12 if you don't care about whether to get the second row or the second column, you don't even need to label the directions. 06:46:23 (assuming you can check for identity between nodes) 06:46:46 you can always go straight to *a* direction in a 2d array 06:46:53 i wish i could "program" in rdf 06:47:37 i'm leaving soon, can you nutshellify that? 06:49:21 RDF is the platform for OWL = Web ontology lang, which is an rdf word-set for describing classes and relationships, which I hope to build a chat-bot with oneday 06:49:23 like: http://www.daxtron.com/cyn.htm 06:49:32 i made an attempt once at a natural language with as little vocab as possible 06:49:43 15 words could already do a lot 06:49:56 hmm, which words? 06:50:22 hmm, some logic, derivative, integration and "world" 06:50:28 also, i think i had some concept of identity 06:50:44 interesting 06:50:46 world was for getting something physical in 06:50:52 ic 06:51:10 it was a bit complex an object, a hashmap with coords in, content out 06:51:14 hmm 06:51:17 like "a chair is part of the world" 06:51:19 doesn't sound that complex actually. 06:51:26 chair... urghh... 06:51:41 "speed" took about 1000 characters 06:51:43 *100 06:51:51 chair would prolly be impossible. 06:52:30 the idea behind it was, once you've ruled out every other imaginable object by describing, you've described your object 06:52:43 i think this is implicitly true for every language 06:53:09 hmm 06:53:23 it's just if you don't have a word for "chair", it's interesting to see what you need to be able to explain it unambiguously for someone with the same cultural background as you. 06:53:41 I knew a guy in california who had this idea that there was a "line" between an object and that which it was not 06:54:09 "lalna", my other lang, had a separate module for geometry, you could explain a chair in that one quite easily without an actual word for chair. 06:54:22 ("table" happened to be one of my most used testcases) 06:54:22 and he thought that the outside of that boundary-line was "definition" and then he asked me: What do you think is on the inside of that boundary? 06:55:01 hmm 06:55:09 Then he said, in an authoritative, eureka-like tone: "Ambiguity" 06:55:27 "outside" is the definition? 06:55:33 yes 06:55:39 wait 06:55:40 hmm... isn't an object's identity something you approach from all directions? 06:55:42 maybe I have it backwards 06:55:50 he was crazy 06:56:20 He also wrote dense poetry where the shorted word was 17 letters long 06:56:33 shorted -> shortest 06:56:42 doesn't sound crazy, just sounds like someone has had too little ideas and gotten overexcited about their first good one 06:57:15 he majored in acoustics, he must have listened to too many ideas 06:57:25 acuostics? 06:57:28 *acoustics 06:57:38 The study of sound 06:57:44 ... 06:57:46 lol, right. 06:58:07 why did i ask, i should know that perfectly well xD 06:58:25 i guess i didn't know you could major in it 06:58:34 Apparently you can 06:58:53 i think only crazy people can major in acoustics 07:00:01 hmm 07:00:33 if you visualized concepts in a 3-dimensional space or something 07:00:48 so that going nearere an object would be describing some part of it 07:01:03 then there wouldn't really be "balls" 07:01:18 since if two objects are close, their balls don't really intersect 07:01:26 because you can only be unambiguous inside one ball. 07:02:09 so basically, balls would take their shape from 1. how unique they are, or how far they are from others, and 2. their importance... the probability at which a certain object is described should grant it greater space 07:02:31 *nearer 07:04:21 heh 07:04:25 interesting 07:04:45 so... now we need four words, two to change dimension and two to move on it (we'll assume the "concept space" has infinite dimensions), with these four words you can describe anything! 07:04:55 i'll be removing 11 words from my language now. 07:05:15 I just made a poem he would be proud of 07:05:26 Desolate flawlessness snags juxtaposed galvanization. 07:05:50 this might be interesting used as the basis of a simulation, where the humanoids being simulated actually had a 2d concept space. 07:06:03 "snags" is 5 :o 07:06:09 i know, i lose 07:06:30 <\#your_poem = 5 07:06:34 lol 07:06:37 oklotalk is niec 07:06:53 i'll need to be going now, still naked and the bus leaves in 10 min. 07:06:57 cya! -> 07:06:58 lol 07:07:00 bye 07:16:16 -!- adu has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 11:04:10 Stupid idea : a language with a transformable data structure. 11:05:11 Where's my pen! 11:13:30 -!- jix has joined. 11:16:46 -!- MommeMC has joined. 11:55:45 moin jix 12:02:10 moin 12:27:11 :) 13:43:57 I knew I'd seen ehird somewhere before 14:34:20 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:44:32 -!- uvanta has quit ("blame!"). 15:08:11 -!- ehird has joined. 15:18:32 hello 15:19:39 Hi. 15:19:45 -!- MommeMC has quit. 15:20:33 -!- MommeMC has joined. 15:24:46 Slereah: did you get qq working :p 15:25:14 Well, I was in class. 15:25:20 i was sleeping! 15:25:24 And I was working on another stupid idea 15:25:29 -!- ehird has set topic: TOPIC NOSTALGIA! (topic from 2004/01/05) 'Why is there an 'L' in Noel? || Because "Noël" is prettier than an "L"? Errr... || Celebrate Mungday!' || We are rebellious, and thus anger freenode by not having the logs in the url. 15:25:33 -!- ehird has set topic: TOPIC NOSTALGIA! (topic from 2004/01/05) 'Why is there an 'L' in Noel? || Because "Noël" is prettier than an "L"? Errr... || Celebrate Mungday!' || We are rebellious, and thus anger freenode by not having the logs in the topic. 15:25:53 The idea being, you start your program with one data structure, a string, which is the program itself. 15:26:18 Then, you create moar. Strings, stacks, queues, tapes, whathaveyous. You modify them, make them interact and all. 15:26:40 and everytime the original structure is modified, the program counter goes back to 0. 15:27:12 It would make for some pretty short quines and self-interpreter. 15:29:50 i dun get it. 15:30:42 Well, imagine you want to do a CAT program. 15:30:55 First, you create a string. 15:31:01 (N,s) 15:31:35 It's the second structure, so it has number 1. You make it the current. 15:31:41 (N,s) 1 15:31:56 Then, you input something on it, and you output it. 15:32:04 (N,s) 1 i o 15:32:33 And then, you change the first structure (the program itself), by repeating it. 15:33:07 (N,s) 1 i o 0 "(N,s) 1 i o 0 "(N,s) 1 i o 0 "" 15:33:15 i dun get it 15:33:19 Hm. 15:33:20 give me a soucre file 15:33:20 :P 15:33:25 and i probably will 15:33:27 Thinking about it, it might not work. 15:33:57 Maybe I should copy the program on some string and paste it back. 15:34:08 ehird: have you visited hoodwink'd before? this explains why I recognised your name. 15:34:15 Asztal: yes, i haev 15:34:16 *have 15:34:28 that was quite a while ago though 15:34:33 (N,s) (N,s) 1 i o 2=0 0=2 15:35:57 There. 15:35:57 Creates one string, two, uses the first one to input something and output it, then the program is copypasted in the second and viceversa 15:35:57 So it starts over 15:38:25 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:38:42 Hi. 15:38:48 hello ais523 15:38:51 hello 15:39:08 I had the following problem: transmit a lot of binary files to a distant terminal 15:39:13 where basically no software was installed 15:39:17 -!- MommeMC has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:39:18 not even uudecode 15:39:25 and the only connection I could use was via telnet 15:39:52 so I invented the .tar.gz.sh format to transmit binary as plaintext 15:40:15 it has lots of lines starting printf '\x40\x41\x42...`\ and so on 15:40:36 >>ing to the output file, and starting with a new printf every now and then to get round argument-length limits 15:40:45 I discovered salt, and invented FM radio. 15:40:58 I had actually written a self-uudecode application before, but it only ran on DOS 15:40:58 nice. 15:41:04 and produced a plain-text .COM file as the output 15:41:49 ais523: bah 15:41:53 you should have made it a .shar 15:42:22 there were problems with what apps were available at the other end... 15:42:34 sed was there, but it was a stripped down version that didn't accept \x escapes 15:42:40 so I aimed at printf instead 15:43:00 shar is trivial! 15:43:03 it's just a shell script 15:43:11 except, it's STANDARD unlike your format 15:43:14 apart from the escape things 15:43:23 but you would be innovating instead of relplacing! ;) 15:44:31 shar needs uudecode to work 15:44:40 and I already pointed out that there was no uudecode at the other end 15:45:13 shar uses uudecode? 15:45:15 rubbish! 15:45:32 * ais523 was actually looking at its output a few seconds before they wrote that 15:45:38 and | uudecode was definitely there 15:45:41 no shar here 15:46:05 nope 15:46:09 no uudecode 15:46:10 i tested 15:46:16 though it doesn't encrypt the binary either 15:46:17 XD 15:46:48 I'm beginning to dream of making a portable-to-as-many-OSs as possible uudecode suite 15:46:58 all the programs in the suite are written in plain text in an appropriate language 15:47:18 and the OS at the other end doesn't need any software that isn't standard for it to do the uudecoding 15:47:33 the idea is that you can transmit someone a uudecode binary, and then use it from then on 15:51:11 ais523: so... just implementing uudecode in minimal sh essentially? 15:51:37 yes 15:51:45 although it's hardly a golfer's implementation 15:52:05 * ais523 has had an idea for a Golf contest that obviously comes out of this discussion 15:52:25 ais523: uudecode isn't a hard algorithm 15:52:44 with standard base POSIX utils + bourne-compatible sh, it would be easy 15:52:49 Just slow 16:00:09 I'm just wondering how you'd do the bitwise arithmetic 16:00:12 lookup table? 16:00:21 anyway, I've entered the Golf submission 16:01:00 -!- helios24 has joined. 16:01:41 sample output is the man page for uuencode/decode 16:01:49 -!- timotiis has joined. 16:01:58 ais523: lookup table would be best, probably 16:02:02 quickest, for shell 16:02:31 anyway, my complicated method worked 16:02:33 ais523: i think you could do it in maybe 250 lines 16:02:49 that would be a better self-uudecode program 16:03:01 then the self-uudecode suite could do DOS and POSIXes 16:03:16 and because Windows can emulate DOS, that would cover most commonly used OSs 16:03:17 ais523: have you noticed that barely any of your underloda submissions are real 16:03:17 :) 16:03:23 I'm not surprised 16:03:26 ais523: also i don't ever consider dos 16:03:30 I made the sample outputs too easy to cheat on 16:03:32 if it's not unix i don't care about it 16:03:33 :) 16:03:55 and ehird: on Windows I use the DOS versions of the GNU utilities for everyday work, when at home and for some reason using Windows 16:04:11 so just like Mac and Linux users, I can use ls, cp and emacs running via bash 16:04:45 ais523: uudecode will be easy to cheat on 16:04:53 figure out a simple way to compress the manpage, print it out 16:04:59 you should have added more examples 16:05:15 there's enough info there that it's likely that a genuine solution will be shorter 16:05:21 in most cases 16:05:35 ais523: meh. also, is a uuencode script worth it? 16:05:38 for my 'long' one 16:05:39 and I tried 'man uudecode' as a submission, it doesn't work because neither uudecode nor man are installed 16:05:54 what do you mean by your 'long' one? 16:08:46 ais523: non-golf 16:10:49 worth it for what, in that case? 16:11:04 ais523: should i write a uuencode 16:11:08 or is it mostly pointless 16:11:13 [vs uudecode] 16:11:26 write a program that does both depending on what name it's invoked as 16:11:43 or even better, figures it from its command line arguments and input 16:12:56 but uudecode is much more useful because you can use it to send a uuencode binary 16:15:23 I wonder, are there ways to do binary operations on your hands? 16:15:32 Like, simple ways. 16:15:38 Yes. 16:15:42 If you use finger down = 0 16:15:43 And finger up = 1 16:15:49 Yes, that I know 16:15:55 But to do operations on the numbers. 16:15:58 bitshifting is just shuffling your fingers. 16:16:23 It would be a good way for dealign with big numbers, since it can go up to 1023 16:17:40 Although I guess it would be better to keep it under 32, to have two hands to do it. 16:20:08 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_binary 16:20:17 Wikipedia, is there anything you can't do? 16:20:36 that one surprised even me 16:21:09 It's like that brainsphere in Futurama. 16:21:13 "2+2 = 4" 16:21:18 "BEAVERS MATE FOR LIFE" 16:21:30 Every information in the universe! 16:22:56 Although I still wonder if there's any algorithm usable on that handcounting 16:24:40 bitwise-XOR! 16:25:29 Matching fingers go down :o 16:25:47 And single fingers get paired 16:26:41 Bitwise and would just be single fingers go down. 16:27:50 -!- glen_quagmire has joined. 16:27:52 -!- olsner has joined. 16:28:08 HAI IS LOLCODE? 16:28:13 Noooooes! 16:28:13 oh god 16:28:21 not lolcode 16:28:36 ADD ONE TO COBOL GIVING COBOL 16:28:54 heh, cobol with lazy evaluation ;-) 16:28:57 COBOL = ++COBOL + COBOL++ 16:29:03 Problem with finger-bitwise operation is, it's hard to keep just any finger up 16:29:04 -!- sarah87 has joined. 16:29:14 functional COBOL would be quite a sight to behold 16:29:25 Like the flaming gates of hell? 16:30:15 actually I think it'd be better than plain cobol in most ways 16:30:23 Is it possible to build some arithmetics from bitwise operations? 16:30:28 most things would be better than plain cobol 16:30:33 olsner: not quite cobol with lazy evaluation, if you say COBOL already has a value 16:30:44 and Slereah: yes, with a certain relaxing of the meaning of 'bitwise' 16:30:48 that's just COBOL++, then, ergo 'object-oriented' (sorry, alan kay) cobol 16:30:49 that's what's done in INTERCAL 16:31:01 although admittedly most arithmetic requires a loop 16:31:16 Well, with fingers, loops wouldn't be too much trouble 16:31:26 You got a hooman supervising most of them 16:32:01 Just wondering if you can build some simple arithmetics with finger binary 16:32:49 ehird: no, but it kind of looked like one of those let x = ... in ... x ... constructions familiar from haskell one-liners 16:33:04 olsner: yeah 16:33:13 Does the building of arithmetics via bitwise have a particular name? 16:33:20 It is for teh googling. 16:33:22 Slereah: 'insanity' 16:33:38 Yes, but, you know, a more professional lame 16:33:42 *name 16:34:03 (1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1" 16:34:03 the shortest addition command I've yet found in INTERCAL that doesn't reference the standard library 16:34:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:34:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:35:00 and requires several extensions to be implemented properly 16:35:26 Slereah: you could try looking for half adders and full adders, the digital circuits for addition - connect n full-adders and you can do n-bit addition 16:35:28 I can't read INTERCAL. 16:35:39 whyever not? 16:35:41 I'll google it, thank you. 16:35:52 Well, I also can't read Japanese and Malbolge 16:36:06 It's just, you know, lack of skill acquisition in the area 16:36:08 INTERCAL isn't too bad when you get used to it 16:36:17 it helps if you use a fixed-width font 16:36:22 Much like the HAUNTED AUSCHWITZ :O 16:36:22 so you can tell apart ' and " easily 16:36:49 "Adder (snake), a family of snakes." 16:36:50 Heh. 16:36:59 WE NEED LOGS 16:37:27 incidentally, I've been working on the concept of a combined Unlambda/Underload/Brainfuck language 16:37:40 Underload and Brainfuck are actually not too hard to mix 16:37:47 Unlambda and Brainfuck are somewhat harder 16:38:09 Isn't there already some brainfuck-unlambda mix? 16:38:23 0x29A and C or something 16:38:41 * ais523 had forgotten about 0x29A 16:38:51 but it has many significant differences from Unlambda 16:38:55 Underload? 16:39:05 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload 16:39:16 !ul (Does this still work?)S 16:39:16 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:39:26 that wasn't meant to happen 16:39:26 -!- EgoBot has joined. 16:39:35 !ps d 16:39:38 1 ais523: ps 16:39:54 !daemon ul bf http://pastebin.ca/raw/367774 16:39:59 oh, is it a functional stack language? 16:40:00 !ul (Hopefully working now.)S 16:40:02 Hopefully working now. 16:40:05 concatenative 16:40:14 which is like functional but even more elegant in my opinion 16:40:20 Hm.I might not have enough hands to do addition with my hands 16:40:23 you can write functionally in it, but don't have to 16:40:50 well, you can't write in any other known paradigm than functional/concatenative, but there are some weird unknown paradigms you can use 16:41:34 !ul (:aSS):aSS 16:41:38 (:aSS):aSS 16:42:12 Heh. Ass. 16:42:21 (from #lisp) 16:42:25 hi 16:42:25 does anyone know of an online lisp parser that shows the parse tree? 16:42:53 heh, that's basically just a web interface for cat 16:43:57 olsner: 'xactly 16:44:12 I don't regret making the folding function on Python. Always useful for tapes! 16:44:29 Fifth time I'm reusing it. 16:45:09 Slereah: reduce() 16:45:13 reduce(func,lst) 16:45:23 ? 16:45:35 its standard pyhon, folding. 16:45:36 :| 16:45:55 Is it the Z ---> N function? 16:46:27 reduce(func,[1,2,3]) -> func(1,func(2,func(3))) 16:46:31 err 16:46:33 wait: 16:46:38 reduce(func,x,[1,2,3]) -> func(1,func(2,func(3,x))) 16:46:42 it's a list fold 16:47:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:47:28 Folding function is [..., -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, ...] -> [0, -1, 1, -2, 2, -3, 3, ...] 16:47:43 Easier to make infinite tapes or infinite grids. 16:48:37 then.. no 16:54:59 reduce = foldr? 16:55:16 olsner: or foldl, i dunno 16:55:37 reduce(lambda x,y:x-y, [1,2,3]) 16:55:43 => -4 => 1-2-3 16:55:46 so foldr 16:55:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:55:59 hello ais523 16:56:09 * ais523 was having connection problems 16:56:17 and so switched to a different connection 16:56:34 which involved physically moving to a different location, therefore the wait 16:57:51 also, I accidentally renamed all the files in my home directory to be lowercase 16:57:59 and then wondered why all my desktop icons had disappeared 16:58:19 yeah, connection problems often lead to having your files renamed? 16:58:44 they were separate issues 16:58:48 Holistic technical support 16:58:54 I have a shell-script to rename all the files in a directory to be lowercase 16:59:00 and ran it in the wrong directory by default 16:59:27 dangerous script, that 16:59:41 yes 16:59:57 but it's so annoying to transfer files from Windows and have them all be in uppercase 17:00:09 it really needs to chmod a-x the files that aren't really executable, too 17:00:19 for some reason Windows sets +x on every file by default... 17:00:23 I think you can fix that with the proper mount flags 17:00:55 I just use automount 17:01:14 * ais523 remembers a Windows sysadmin trying to install a program 17:01:26 it failed because he had permissions to create files in a directory but not to rename them 17:01:37 so it was full of executables with names like oiaewrca.tmp 17:02:15 hmm, but how can you be a sysadmin without administration privileges on the machines you're supposed to admin? 17:02:30 he did have administration privileges 17:02:40 but on Windows, even admins are limited by permissions 17:02:58 oh joy 17:03:01 they can change permissions to allow themselves to do things, but can't do everything by default 17:03:19 probably because most Windows XP users ran as administrator all the time but still needed to be prevented from doing stupid things 17:04:15 I was actually doing some rather 'stupid things' today, like typing rm /var/log at a root prompt 17:04:33 it was on an embedded system, and I was removing a symlink to /tmp ... 17:05:39 apt-cache search brainfuck: 4 results, all relevant to some extent 17:05:57 apt-cache search unlambda: 1 result, which is relevant 17:06:15 apt-cache search intercal: 2 results, the 2 main modern INTERCAL compilers 17:06:28 macports has no esoteric stuff 17:06:30 apt-cache search befunge: 0. I'm disappointed 17:06:44 maybe we need the ePMS (esoteric package management system) 17:06:58 [the pun came about naturally but let's say it was intentional from the start] 17:08:22 * ais523 goes and installs all those packages 17:08:38 apart from clc-intercal and unlambda, which I already have installed, and intercal, which I develop and so have a newer version of 17:10:09 our project management system at work is called Project Management System, i.e. PMS :P 17:11:35 * ais523 just got a relevant result for apt-cache search perligata 17:11:49 anyone know of any other esolangs I can fetch like this? 17:11:57 ais523: with ePMS, everything! 17:12:03 the only problem is implementing it :P 17:12:30 how is http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters doing? 17:12:39 cuddly 17:12:51 we need to get that full of links, really 17:14:20 I can post the Brainfuck on a Turing machine one if you want 17:15:09 any nice small string rewriting esolangs out there? thinking of writing an interpreter in mod_rewrite 17:15:15 olsner: yes 17:15:16 olsner: thue 17:15:26 or thutu for something more complex but more usable 17:15:36 ais523: also i've pretty much narrowed down the Underload compiler reimplementation langugaes to two: haskell or common lisp 17:15:39 ais523: pick one. :p 17:15:54 if it's not an esolang, let's go for Haskell 17:16:24 you don't know about haskell? you should try it out, it's sweet 17:16:36 I do know about Haskell 17:16:54 and I'm a big fan, if slightly disappointed that there's no easy way to write a mockingbird 17:16:59 but I'm not very good at it 17:17:05 "if it's not an esolang, ..."? 17:17:11 I meant 'if we're not writing this in an esolang' 17:17:29 oh, I see 17:17:30 ais523: that would be painful. or optimizations 17:17:45 the thing about haskell is that this program has some mutability at the core which i haven't figured out how to refactor out 17:17:48 now, i could use a state monad 17:17:58 I read it as "what's this haskell? as long as it's not an esolang, let's take it" 17:18:05 but it's really anti-haskell if it isn't really truly fundamentally *state* 17:18:34 also, lisp may be easier for ais523 to grok than haskell :-) it's really a choice of which type of alienation is better 17:18:46 underload :: Stack -> (String, Stack) 17:18:50 I understand both, just am not used to either 17:19:03 olsner: compiler. 17:19:17 olsner: the way we compile it is... a bit hard to grok 17:19:19 it involves 'blimps' 17:19:28 (it targets c) 17:19:37 and wouldn't it be (String, Stack) -> (String, Stack) or possibly IO String -> Stack? 17:20:15 does underload have input? 17:20:17 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Lore2.txt 17:20:28 Here's a broad outline of my horrible horrible idea 17:20:29 olsner: no 17:20:46 but you need to input the program 17:20:48 which is a string 17:20:56 if it had input equiv. to (inputted text) it'd be uncompilable 17:21:00 so it could be just String -> (String, Stack) 17:21:09 Hm. Forgot to add the "1" after (N,s) in the example programs 17:21:15 ah, yes, forgot the part about the input program 17:21:17 thankfully ais523 says that all input stuff would be: 17:21:20 church numerals 17:21:22 of ascii chars 17:21:28 if I get round to writing a new version 17:21:43 or I can just make the Unlambda/Underload/Brainfuck language and use Brainfuck's . for input 17:23:20 which would input a Church numeral replacing the current TOS 17:24:16 ais523: so -- take your pick, you can either have a lot of parens or crazy, terse awesomeness 17:24:49 unfortunately to do the optimizations we want we need to parse it 17:25:00 which also means storing the originating code in Push parse tree segments 17:25:06 which is, aggrevating 17:25:18 I still favour Haskell for this 17:25:51 okies 17:26:42 ais523: i'm going to delete the Makefile, but not underload.scm because i need it for a reference to write the code on 17:26:50 again OK 17:27:01 I'll save a backup on my own computer for my own amusement 17:27:09 ais523: you can always check out a previous revision 17:27:22 I know... 17:27:26 speaking of VCS... are you sure you don't have darcs? svn is driving me crazy :P 17:27:40 apt-get darcs 17:27:56 olsner: this is a good point, beforehand ais523 couldn't install anything though 17:28:02 I starded doing that as soon as I saw ehird's comment 17:28:07 haha 17:28:08 s/d/t/ 17:28:37 now I'm on my own computer, I can be a lot more flexible 17:28:45 the bendy kind of flexible? 17:28:49 i don't see what computers have to do with that 17:28:59 Auto-fellatio? 17:29:03 darcs has a pretty low barrier to entry really, took like 30 minutes to get going 17:29:23 -!- MommeMC has joined. 17:29:28 no funky databases, servers or any of that crud 17:29:52 flexible in that I have no reasonable excuse not to act exactly according to ehird's orders 17:30:01 hehe 17:30:02 :) 17:30:08 quick darcs primer: 17:30:13 - there is no central repository 17:30:20 - your _darcs dir has the whole history, isn't that nice 17:30:37 - it's distributed, basically you pull and push tons of servers in a tangly web of metapatterns or something 17:30:48 - we'll just emulate a distributed server by putting a copy on my VCS 17:30:53 - and giving push/pull rights to that 17:31:01 - conflicts are easily resolvable, because darcs is clever 17:31:13 - it's interactive: when your record a patch it asks which changes you want to record 17:31:18 (but you can tell it to record everything) 17:31:32 - record != push: you need to push to share your changes 17:31:35 end of darcs primer 17:31:53 -!- MommeMC has quit (Client Quit). 17:31:56 I'm sure I'll get used to it in a bit 17:31:58 hehe 17:32:19 ais523: because i'm lazy i'm not setting up a secure darcs push... so you get an ssh account on my server, i hope you feel special 17:32:31 thanks 17:33:30 how would you set up a darcs push without giving shell access? 17:33:41 olsner: i'm not sure, but meh 17:34:08 hm 17:34:10 darcs-server, probably. 17:34:36 ah 17:34:40 darcs-server in debian is the cgi 17:36:13 I guess the secure way is to darcs send things to an e-mail and let some maintainer person apply after review 17:36:29 ais523: now you need to give me a password :P in /msg 17:36:37 olsner: yes, well, that's not quite rapid enough for me :-) 17:36:41 I've heard of e-mail services with GPG-based authentification of patches 17:36:55 but still, ssh-access is probably still easiest 17:39:14 lol, $ sudo chmod 777 darcs 17:40:08 darcs failed: Failed to download URL ssh://elliotthird.org//home/darcs/underload/_darcs/inventory : unsupported protocol 17:40:09 wtf 17:40:15 oh 17:40:16 duh 17:40:28 darcs get elliotthird.org:/home/darcs/underload underl 17:40:28 oad_darcs 17:40:29 :) 17:40:37 isn't user@host:path the syntax for ssh? yeah :P 17:42:02 * ais523 ran that command, and it apparently worked 17:42:59 ais523: damnit 17:43:04 remove that dir, i need to get the repo up first 17:43:05 :-) 17:43:15 ais523: by the way, if you use emacs, you'll want this: http://chneukirchen.org/repos/darcsum/darcsum.el 17:43:26 it's gone 17:43:44 and although I use emacs, I generally prefer to exit it and type shell commands to do things like compile or checkin 17:45:32 ais523: pff, you might as well use vi ;) 17:45:35 oh by the way 17:45:39 when darcs asks you what your email is 17:45:42 huh? darcs get worked on a non-repository? 17:45:48 answer "Name ", not "email" 17:45:54 olsner: that is a repository. 17:45:56 note the /repos/ 17:46:21 "remove that dir, i need to get the repo up first" 17:46:26 oh 17:46:27 I meant 17:46:31 importing all the stuff, etc 17:46:33 it was an empty repo, as far as I could tell 17:46:57 * ais523 is annoyed that the following Anarchy Golf quine-by-cheating was rejected: ps -Cps -oargs= 17:47:04 it segfaults 17:47:11 sfghdkjlsfgdhlhdfgsdgjlssdfghjkfgsdhjklsdfghjkl darcsum is odd 17:47:14 how do i get it to record my changse! 17:47:29 darcs record 17:47:52 olsner: darcsum. 17:47:54 the emacs mode. 17:48:11 oh 17:49:35 ais523: oh well: 17:49:47 darcs get ais523@elliotthird.org:/home/darcs/underload 17:49:57 s/ais523@// if that's your username on your computer 17:50:40 ais523: By the way, at one time you said you had a way to make some part of prelude.c less recursive 17:50:41 what was it? 17:50:58 olsner: the underload compiler is interesting because at first glance, it seems self-modifying and uncompilable 17:51:01 it wasn't less recursive, I don't think, but more efficient 17:51:10 ais523: which was it, what were the implications? 17:51:13 it would have involved using binary trees rather than lists 17:51:17 ah 17:51:20 that's not acceptable 17:51:27 it means call isn't tail-recursive 17:51:27 which made dup O(1), but the rest of the program much more complicated 17:51:32 it'd have to recurse for both branches 17:51:47 yes, I couldn't see a way around that introducing recursion 17:51:55 and imo that's more serious than dup being kinda slow 17:52:00 and also I think it just spread the inefficiency around, so it wouldn't have been worth it anyway 17:54:03 olsner: what's the simple way to get a read-only darcs? 17:54:07 without setting up an http server 17:54:27 ehird: I had a http server laying around and just set up a vhost for darcs 17:54:40 olsner: i don't have a server lying around until i get my site up :-) 17:57:15 oh well 17:57:20 olsner: any other easy way? 17:58:09 searching, but it seems that http is the preferred way of getting read-only public access 17:58:23 darcs should come with an http server ;) 17:58:38 ehird: I got the Qq. 17:58:48 Slereah: define 'got' 17:58:53 the interp works? you wrote a program? .. 17:58:56 It seems to be working 17:58:59 yay 17:59:11 Or... Wait 17:59:24 Error during processing of --eval option (LOAD #P"./run.lisp"): 17:59:24 invalid number of arguments: 0 17:59:34 Noes. 17:59:38 Slereah: pastebin run.lisp 17:59:46 Slereah: also, how did you start it? 17:59:57 slereah@Vixem:~/1201049491-qq-v1_0$ ./run.lisp prog.qq 18:00:06 cat prog.qq 18:00:20 slereah@Vixem:~/1201049491-qq-v1_0$ cat prog.qq 18:00:20 0 7 ((8)) 18:00:38 I also tried with only one parethesis 18:00:41 you're using old-style commands 18:00:45 Oh 18:00:45 0 7(6) 18:00:55 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Qq will be useful ;) 18:01:16 Stop changing syntax damn you! 18:01:26 Now, to try the big cat program 18:01:32 What was my idea again? 18:01:39 it's really not that hard to set up apache2 and a vhost (or a symlink for ~darcs to go to the right place) 18:01:43 um, i forgot Slereah :) 18:01:45 logs might help! 18:01:46 Got it written somewhere, partly 18:01:47 ircbrowse.com 18:01:52 olsner: eww, apache 18:02:09 ITYM nginx, or lighttpd, or maybe some Lisp server 18:02:23 or any other web browser for that matter, since darcs only needs plain http file serving 18:02:28 Ah yes 18:03:14 do you also get database errors from esolangs.org? 18:03:16 olsner: I should write my own :P 18:03:19 olsner: and everyone does 18:03:22 olsner: once in a while 18:03:26 they go away when you refresh 18:03:37 3 (0 8 (0 (0 7(6)) 3)) 18:03:43 Or something 18:04:04 Slereah: just check the wiki to see if your stuff is still right :P 18:04:26 I did 18:04:27 lalalla sudo vi /etc/thttpd/thttpd.conf 18:04:37 My big problem is the parenthesis 18:04:42 yeah 18:04:42 I'm not too sure where to put them 18:04:49 Slereah: like in what case 18:04:59 Let's review this program. 18:05:20 Will 3 (something) convert to (something) (something)? 18:05:33 And the first something will be evaluated first, presumably entierly 18:06:15 http://elliotthird.org/ look at thttpd's lovely sense of colour design! 18:06:27 olsner: if you want to see the crazy state-stuff that the compiler uses to compile: 18:06:31 darcs get http://elliotthird.org/underload/ 18:06:38 (read only, so ais523 - don't do that :P) 18:07:05 * ais523 looks at it with a web browser instead 18:07:08 haha 18:07:13 did you mean to put your bashrc in there? 18:07:23 ais523: not mine 18:07:26 'darcs's 18:07:31 it's serving /home/darcs :) 18:07:31 ah 18:07:44 besides it's 403 forbidden 18:07:54 and the error page's colours are superb :P 18:08:00 it's from 2002, that thttpd :D 18:08:08 not a very updated software: but rock solid, and fast 18:08:13 do I want prelude.c, postlude.c or underload.scm? 18:08:31 all of them are needed for the current version of the compiler 18:08:38 underload.scm is the compiler, the other two are data files 18:09:13 olsner: prelude.c is all the library functions and structures that the output uses 18:09:21 postlude.c is the end of all the c files 18:09:34 I show the code to my brain but it refuses to parse although I know that it knows scheme 18:09:37 underload.scm compiles an underload program, and sticks it between prelude.c and postlude.c 18:09:47 olsner: it's not pretty that's for sure 18:09:50 time to get home from work I think! 18:09:52 it's imperative scheme with WTF mixed in 18:10:32 the name 'blimp' reminds me of haskell's thunks 18:11:22 olsner: it's kind of similar 18:11:22 in: 18:11:25 ((a)b)c 18:11:29 the blimps are: a, b, and c 18:11:33 and we 'unroll' them 18:11:38 so ((a)b)c transforms into: 18:11:49 1=<2>c; 2=<3>b; 3=a 18:12:04 we do this because we need to compile them as C code, and also retain their strings 18:12:12 so <2> looks like: 18:12:18 push(2, "(a)b"); 18:12:28 and the whole program is a switch statement dispatching on blimp numbers 18:12:35 in a function, so we can handle non-tail-calls too 18:13:50 olsner: which is why we have ugly code 18:13:52 handling that unrolling. 18:14:25 sounds like something you might be able to use a tie-the-knot technique on 18:14:49 olsner: is that really a programming technique? 18:14:51 :| 18:14:53 heh. 18:15:16 it's all those cool haskell tricks where you build a value that depends on itself 18:15:53 they look like magic 18:15:57 ah 18:16:02 olsner: how would i use that in THIS case...? 18:16:31 dunno, I don't even understand how the language we're compiling works yet ;-) 18:16:39 *you're 18:16:41 olsner: another thing is that i want to generate a parse tree, but for (...) i need to store the string ... as well as its parse tree 18:16:44 which is gonna be a pain 18:16:48 olsner: the wiki can help 18:16:58 as can the online interpreter 18:19:03 -!- Corun has joined. 18:21:14 well, gotta run now, cya 18:21:19 * Slereah 's writing sum Lore interpreter 18:21:24 bye olsner :) 18:21:27 -!- olsner has quit ("leaving"). 18:22:54 -!- RedDak has joined. 18:31:24 http://forums.devshed.com/database-management-46/ddate-discordian-date-problems-321852.html this is too surreal not to be true 18:52:54 ais523: you alive? :) 18:53:25 yes 18:53:41 I've developed a trick of making my terminal window slightly transparent so that I can see IRC through it 18:53:50 proper 'I SAID YOUR NAME beeps would still be useful, though...' 18:54:21 ais523: M-x erc 18:54:26 s/E (.*)'/E' \1/ 18:54:46 -!- ehercd has joined. 18:54:48 it's emacslicious! 18:55:01 and perhaps a bit over the top, but hey, it'll beep for you.. 18:55:13 I wonder what would happen if i (dissociated-press)'d right now 18:55:16 better not try 18:55:24 ...aw,alright 18:56:03 *** #esoteric: topic set by not having the logs in the topic 18:56:35 I noticed the topic 18:56:40 and I like it 18:57:00 o 18:57:04 ais523: that was what dissociated-press had to say about this erc buffer 18:57:11 oklopol: klopol 18:57:29 I thought you were actually trying to make sense 18:57:42 ais523: you know what dissociated-press is right? 18:57:52 it's an implementation of dissociated press, which is a character-based markov chain 18:57:57 in Emacs lisp 18:58:00 and you apply it to a buffer. 18:58:28 yes 18:59:01 Because "Noël" is prettier than the thusers on #esociated-press)'d right? 18:59:05 tee hee 19:00:19 character-based, rather than word based? I wouldn't guess that would actually work in practice, without a fairly long chain.. 19:00:30 Asztal: it 'works' sofar as it produces funny crap 19:00:41 Asztal: try reading dissociated-press.el, but I warn you: Emacs Lisp is not happy fun time 19:01:00 I've done a markov bot but it made chains of words 19:01:17 I have done that too. I think everyone has. 19:01:24 I am going to refine it in Lisp sometime. 19:01:24 I guess that's why it came up with "thusers" 19:01:28 and esociated 19:01:33 interesting. 19:02:01 Asztal: you do need relatively big files, though, in practice 19:02:42 Gah. I want M-x firefox 19:02:52 I just tried M-> in Safari. 19:03:19 guess I should try conkeror 19:07:59 -!- ehercd has left (?). 19:19:51 -!- olsner has joined. 19:20:18 * ais523 has written a maze solver in GolfScript, but it times out if I set the number of iterations high enough to actually solve the maze 19:20:26 hmm, maybe the best thing for an emacs-webbrowser, 19:20:32 is creating a sort of 'base-emacs' 19:20:37 probably because the GolfScript implementation on Anarchy Golf is so slow 19:20:37 emacs sans the editor, kind of 19:20:40 i.e. 19:20:43 an embedded lisp 19:20:48 the basic app infrastructure 19:20:55 and some basic concepts like 'frame' 19:21:04 and a gui abstraction 19:21:09 and a default set of keybindings 19:21:14 and then, building apps on top of that: 19:21:17 editor, web browser, irc client 19:21:36 kind of like 'emacs, planned as it would have been if it was started aiming for what it is today, but cleaner' 19:28:43 wow, frappr was useless 19:29:22 anyone have opinions on my emacs-base thing? it's pretty esoteric i might say :P 19:29:35 stuck in som kind of weird slideshow, and the only place I can put a pin is Null in Texass 19:30:14 ehird: that might just be Common Lisp with a windowing library... 19:30:19 ais523: naw 19:30:30 ais523: it would have loads of infrastructure. 19:30:42 ais523: like, standard keybindings by default 19:30:47 ways to represent concepts 19:30:50 (frame, buffer, etc) 19:31:04 CL already has a gui interface btw and it's standard: CLIM 19:31:11 with the most-developed impl being McCLIM 19:31:14 but it's not very nice. IMO. 19:31:17 and Climacs is kinda sucky 19:31:21 so: i think a restart is in order 19:31:38 ais523: pluggability of the gui lib would be important too: for using gecko for the web browser 19:38:26 wow, frappr now takes all keypresses twice 19:41:17 up 'n' down? 19:41:23 oh, frappr 19:41:38 oklopol: how about you comment on my emacs-base idea! :P 19:42:33 i'll comment once my friend leaves 19:42:40 he talks all the time, can't irc 19:42:52 you don't want him to know that you read things with 'emacs' in? :P 19:43:31 emacs should be removed, not rewritten... but I guess that can be construed as motivation for doing it 19:43:54 * ais523 has discovered a new Golfing trick, which owes much to Underload 19:44:10 to do something $x times, eval'something;'x$x 19:44:30 works the same way that Church numerals can create loops 19:44:56 in ruby, it's basically literally what you said: 19:44:58 eval'something'*x 19:45:03 :) 19:45:07 lisp: 19:45:15 ooer, i don't know how to replicate a string. 19:46:23 in lisp you could do it with progn and replicating a lisp 19:46:30 s/p$/t/ 19:46:38 you could also use literal eval.. 19:46:41 (eval 'foo) 19:46:41 :-) 19:46:48 You know... Lisp invented it? ;) 19:46:55 maybe 19:46:55 1 character shorter than "x.times{something}", although much sorter if 'something' is dynamic 19:47:02 although it was possible in machine code all along 19:47:13 ais523: Uh, Lisp invented the eval function. 19:47:30 in machine code, goto or gosub serve the same function 19:47:35 no, not really. 19:47:50 you just jump into your data, and it's evaluated! 19:48:31 (defmacro (times n &body body) (if (= n 1) body `(progn ,body (times ,(- n 1) ,@(cdr body)))) 19:48:33 silly :D 19:48:50 yeah, i know i'm going to hell 19:48:54 oshi 19:48:57 schemeish XD 19:49:03 (defmacro times (n &body body) (if (= n 1) body `(progn ,body (times ,(- n 1) ,@(cdr body))))) 19:49:22 aww shucks 19:49:31 silly me: 19:49:35 (defmacro times (n &body body) (if (= n 1) body `(progn ,@body (times ,(- n 1) ,@(cdr body))))) 19:49:52 hm 19:50:20 oh duh 19:50:25 (defmacro times (n &body body) (if (= n 1) body `(progn ,@body (times ,(- n 1) ,@body)))) 19:50:54 (defmacro times (n &body body) (if (= n 1) `(progn ,@body) `(progn ,@body (times ,(- n 1) ,@body)))) 19:51:16 return value magick: 19:51:59 hmm 19:58:45 ehird: i still don't know much about emacs, but i agree anything grandioso and awesome is kinda cool. 19:58:57 (defmacro times-helper (n &body body) 19:58:57 (if (zerop n) 19:58:57 nil 19:58:57 `((progn ,@body) ,@(macroexpand `(times-helper ,(- n 1) ,@body))))) 19:58:58 (defmacro times (n &body body) 19:58:58 `(values ,@(macroexpand `(times-helper ,n ,@body)))) 19:59:00 oops 19:59:02 sorry for the flood 19:59:07 but there's your compile-time (TIMES n ...) 20:01:08 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 20:02:36 oklopol: not that hard, just read what i said :p 20:02:44 hm, it would be quite a bit porjcet, wouldn't it 20:04:06 ais523: i'm flooding quite a bit aren't i? 20:05:32 I'm fine with it 20:05:36 hehe 20:05:42 ais523: you know, golfscript isn't actually that compact 20:05:47 + it loses in speed benchmakrs 20:06:12 we need a language that takes some few really strange operators, and mangles them in fun ways to create insanely compact code, implemented in efficient C 20:06:13 :D 20:06:35 I'm well aware that golfscript can be improved upon 20:06:58 I've been working on a language for a long time designed for similar purposes that I think would do better in length, although probably not in speed 20:07:04 Underload is a tarpit version of it 20:07:14 but the full version has never been implemented or even properly documented 20:07:32 golfscript? i bet cise owns that 20:13:26 ais523: perhaps not always using the stack is an idea for conciseness 20:13:50 the stack leads to RPN, which tends to be short 20:14:02 but having commands for 'double TOS' rather than having to write 2* might help in some cases 20:14:30 ¨ = double TOS 20:14:32 :D 20:14:40 ais523: yes, a standard prelude can be written 20:14:45 ais523: but, infix can also shorten code 20:14:47 prefix less so-- 20:14:52 but infix can cut down on the spaces 20:15:04 also, it can remove quoting 20:15:04 e.g.: 20:15:17 prefix == postfix 20:15:20 "hello" 'foo {doohickey} 20:15:28 where 'blah is a quote 20:15:33 with infix that's: 20:15:36 "hello"{doohickey}foo 20:15:43 because {doohickey} can quote the foo itself 20:15:43 the way mine worked no commands were longer than one character, so spaces weren't needed 20:15:52 ais523: that can lead to problems though 20:15:54 there was a wimpmode for decimals 20:16:03 it's just "stack manipulation" is easier to comprehend than "high-order functions" in most cases 20:16:05 although I should probably add a command for arbitrary high number if it's being used for golfing 20:16:05 when you have a really useful command but are running out 20:16:12 so: 1 = most used for compactness 20:16:14 2 = 2nd most used 20:16:16 ... etc 20:16:23 and ofc decimals indeed 20:16:26 I'm not near running out of letters yet 20:16:30 and some commands were multiple letters 20:16:36 ais523: one thing that is NEEDED 20:16:41 is a way to extend the parser, in some way 20:16:43 to add new infix ops 20:16:46 instead of: x = 5 20:16:46 due to z and Z being modifiers on the next command, and other similarities 20:16:49 x=5 must be possibly 20:16:57 which is only possible by defining = to be a special kind of token. 20:17:14 are you talking about variable assignment? 20:17:16 ais523: this also means much of the stdlib can be written in itself 20:17:29 much of the stdlib /is/ written in itself in my unfinished implementation 20:17:40 and many of those are commented out with some faster C++ code next to them... 20:17:52 ais523: maybe ideas from yours could help form UltimateGolfLangugaeThing? 20:17:59 I pretty much abandoned the C++ version, though, even though it was the most complete, because it was getting unmaintainable 20:18:26 new commands can be defined pretty easily, by the way; so to define x to be y, you could write 'y'x# 20:18:36 'a is equivalent to (a) 20:18:44 saves one char in a common situation... 20:18:55 ultimategolflanguagething: 20:18:58 cmd:code 20:19:07 code terminated by, ehh, let's just say ; 20:19:08 so 20:19:18 foo:2 2+; 20:19:25 is the function const(4) 20:19:34 though i am thinking that + will be binary 20:19:37 foo:2+2; 20:19:39 one char shorter. 20:19:48 if you want a postfix version of a binop, prefix it with ` 20:19:52 foo:2 2`+; 20:19:57 ais523: seems good to me 20:20:04 in my case, if you really wanted to add 2 and 2 and save it in a command, it would be something like (22+)'f# 20:20:24 ais523: 2+2 is evaluated when you call foo 20:20:26 it's just a function 20:20:28 same here 20:20:36 (22+) quotes the command, just like in Underload 20:20:40 foo:2+; 20:20:46 ^^ that takes advantage of partial evaluation ^^ 20:20:49 gives you an add-2 function 20:20:54 yep 20:20:55 just like (2+)'f# 20:21:09 foo:+2; would also work 20:21:26 because numeric literals are positive by default 20:21:27 but then you have two commands that do the same thing, which is bad for conciseness 20:21:30 so you can't use +foo on them 20:21:38 foo:-3; probably won't work, obviously 20:21:42 my language didn't /have/ negative numbers 20:21:43 foo:3-; will though 20:21:49 ais523: they are useful 20:21:53 I found they were rarely needed and confusing 20:21:56 we're thinking about golf here 20:22:00 I know 20:22:08 but how do you execute something a negative number of times? 20:22:18 probably by triggering an error. 20:22:27 anyway, as soon as i figure out a language name maybe we should move to a different channel, it's getting floody in here 20:23:04 make a channel called something like #esoteric_flood where we can flood all we like 20:23:11 that exists. 20:23:13 #esoteric-blah 20:23:18 mainly for bots, but basically 'crap' 20:23:22 we may as well go there, then 20:23:22 but - not good for discussion 20:23:26 ah 20:23:33 well make one which is for discussion but floodable 20:23:47 at that point i might as well just make one for the language :P 20:23:59 #moderatelyrainyesoteric 20:23:59 if only golfscript wasn't taken 20:24:13 heh 20:24:21 wholeinone :) 20:24:35 well, my language was called Overload, due to the massive overloading of the operators and due to the way a simple program could easily overload a computer if not optimised 20:24:44 ais523: now I get underload 20:24:45 and Underload was a tarpit version of it... 20:24:46 hee hee hee 20:24:51 ehird you bitch 20:24:58 i am male, Slereah 20:25:05 Yes. Bitch. 20:25:32 ais523: how does v^ sound as a name? :P 20:25:42 1. it looks like some kind of mountain, if you squint your eyes 20:25:46 2. it's two directions 20:25:49 3. it's unpronouncable 20:25:58 4. nobody will ever figure out a file extension 20:26:04 * ais523 pronounces it as v followed by a kind of hiccup 20:26:10 v-hu! 20:26:28 ehird: .mnt 20:26:36 that's already used 20:26:42 So what 20:26:48 .v^ 20:26:48 by a piece of music composition software for Windows I was using a while ago 20:26:54 the so what is that I actually knew what it was used for 20:26:57 One day, I will make a file extension for NTCM 20:26:58 but I agree with the so what 20:27:01 It will be .lm9 20:27:16 BTW, does anyone know of an Unlambda debugger? 20:27:26 I'm having a bit of trouble with a program I've been working on for a while 20:27:38 Not really. 20:29:25 hrm 20:29:29 ais523: foocode 20:29:30 :P 20:29:36 or fucode 20:29:57 give it a zero-length name 20:29:59 no wait 20:30:00 due to the shortness of it 20:30:01 codeFu 20:30:11 although I like that suggestion 20:30:16 oh I know! 20:30:18 golFu 20:30:19 or fugolf 20:30:26 eh, ok, here are the options: 20:30:27 my regexp language has negative-length strings 20:30:34 so you could use one of those 20:30:43 foocode, fucode, codeFu, golFu, fugolf, 20:30:54 golFu looks good 20:31:07 but kind of hard to interpret the first time you look at it 20:31:10 (kind of like the language then) 20:32:06 :) 20:32:21 i don't really like fucode 20:32:22 agree? 20:32:33 yes 20:33:34 ok 20:33:40 and foocode isn't too hot - agreed? 20:34:08 food cooked certainly is hot 20:34:28 foocode is just a bit meh 20:34:54 ok: 20:34:59 what about fugolf? 20:35:06 i don't like the sound of it, even in fuGolf form 20:35:17 and it's not at all obvious what you're getting at 20:35:26 the -fu suffix is much more recognisable at the end of a name 20:35:31 yes. 20:35:32 ok: 20:35:42 codeFu, golFu, golfFu (repetition but nicer than golFu maybe), 20:36:10 Golf-Fu? 20:36:29 ais523: kind of a pain to type 20:36:33 also try to pronounce it 20:36:35 'golfufu' 20:36:50 golffffu 20:36:59 is how I pronounce it 20:37:08 I agree about the typing difficulty, though 20:37:30 ok, so we're still at what i said last time =P 20:37:46 golfu just sounds japanese to me. 20:38:07 ninjaFu! 20:38:14 :D 20:38:38 -!- ais523 has set topic: TOPIC NOSTALGIA! (topic from 2004/01/05) 'Why is there an 'L' in Noel? || Because "Noël" is prettier than an "L"? Errr... || Celebrate Mungday!' || We are rebellious, and thus anger freenode by not mentioning the logs in the topic. 20:38:48 for better paradoxicality 20:38:51 wait you didn't even change the topic xD 20:39:00 s/having/mentioning/ 20:39:02 near the end 20:39:11 okay: 20:39:12 codeFu, golFu, ninjaFu, 20:39:48 do you think it's a good idea to mention golfing in the lang's name or not? 20:39:54 cram 20:39:58 does it really matter, ais523? :) 20:40:00 it was a precedence when I designed my language 20:40:14 I actually had the kind-of-insane idea that it could be used to send interactive content via Teletext 20:40:19 thus the need for the shortness of the name 20:40:35 teletext :D 20:40:42 s/name/code/ 20:40:44 britain is so weird. 20:40:56 Hmm, what? 20:40:58 is there an equivalent where you live? 20:41:03 other than the Internet, of course? 20:41:03 * Corun is british 20:41:22 ais523: I live in britain 20:41:22 :P 20:41:29 aha 20:41:33 so the answer is yes 20:41:39 ostensibly,y es 20:43:57 ais523: what's wrong with mentioning golf in the name? 20:44:10 i guess it does reduce the possibility that people will write in it outside of golf contests 20:44:42 if the language has practical utility outside, it might be an idea to use a different name 20:44:50 define practical 20:44:51 it's an esolang 20:44:52 :P 20:45:24 practical = you might write in it to produce a program that does X when no language choice is specified and you aren't deliberately choosing an esolang 20:46:22 ais523: i don't get what you're saying 20:46:33 you mean like to write up a quick hack? like what you might do with perl? :P 20:46:37 bit odd to use an esolang for that i guess 20:46:41 that sort of thing 20:46:54 or maybe you want to write an interpreter for your latest esolang 20:46:55 i guess so then 20:46:57 and need a language to write it in 20:47:02 codeFu, ninjaFu, 20:47:05 those are our choices 20:47:15 ninjaFu is so much better than codeFu as a name 20:47:23 but ninjafu.com is taken, etc 20:47:24 so it's common 20:47:30 and ninjaFu doesn't really suggest, well, code 20:47:31 How 'bout Fu 20:47:36 GregorR: heh. 20:48:34 ais523: I can't think of good entries for 20:48:39 so: codeFu vs ninjaFu, unless you can 20:49:05 codeFu vs ninjaFu sounds like the name of a TV program 20:49:15 yes 20:49:16 it does 20:49:30 ais523: ninjafu 1k goog results 20:49:31 codefu 2k 20:49:37 ninjafu.com is first result though 20:49:43 and seems active 20:49:58 codefu.com is taken but just parked 20:50:05 codefu.org is taken and used. 20:50:21 what about ninjacode? Is that taken? 20:50:25 ais523: honestly maybe we should just give it some kind of abstract name 20:50:31 * ais523 guesses probably but can't be bothered to checl 20:50:38 like Rast or something 20:50:42 s/l$/k/ 20:50:48 ais523: ninjacode.{com,org} is taken 20:50:52 .com->apache2 default 20:50:58 not surprising 20:51:06 ninjacode.org -> not much done but a few links 20:51:15 incl. gallery 20:51:27 ok, options: 20:51:34 codeFu, ninjaFu, ninjacode, 20:52:27 you could give it a name that's a program in the lang itself 20:52:35 preferably a very short one which does something crowd-pleasing 20:52:45 ais523: and with just a-z.. 20:53:35 why add that restriction? 20:53:56 because otherwise it's kind of hard to pronounce 20:54:23 random strings of letters can be hard to pronounce anyway 20:54:56 true 20:54:57 I have a language called :≠, for instance 20:55:17 and just arbitrarily defined a pronunciation for it 20:55:47 anyway 20:55:54 codeFu ninjaFu ninjacode 20:55:55 pick one 20:56:33 I'll go for ninjaFu, then 20:56:41 not ninjacode? 20:56:46 or ninjascript 20:57:30 ninjascript sounds better 20:57:37 bit reminicent of golfscript, then 20:57:46 s/en/ough/ 20:57:54 so? 20:58:17 s%n/%n$/% 20:58:24 I think that's right now 21:01:11 ais523: ninjaFu doesn't sound very good IMO 21:01:14 ok! finally! down to three 21:01:27 codeFu ninja{code,script} 21:01:38 Gentleman, I am at war! 21:02:22 * ais523 currently favours ninjascript 21:02:25 maybe in camelCase 21:03:38 ais523: no love for ? 21:04:15 it's hard to pick something in particular for that 21:04:26 if you have a concrete suggestion for , feel free to suggest it 21:05:49 Vort. Yaern. Baut. Cason. Rafdae. 21:06:31 :P 21:07:55 ais523: None of them? 21:08:30 I like the second and last best 21:08:46 ae is obviously a good vowel to use 21:09:34 hwaet? 21:09:53 Yaen, Rafdae, codeFu, ninjacode, ninjascript 21:09:53 * Asztal <3 old english 21:09:59 pick one and let's be quick this is taking far too long 21:10:19 hey, it's your lang, and every time I make a suggestion you disagree 21:10:23 I'll randomise if you like 21:11:49 :P 21:11:54 hmm ninjaCode ninjaScript 21:11:59 they look nicer camelcased 21:12:04 let's just go with one of them 21:12:08 it's a binary decision :-) 21:12:10 ninjaScript, then 21:12:23 kind of similar to golfscript like you said 21:12:27 also, define 'script' 21:12:33 its not just a scripting language, is it? 21:12:37 hopefully not 21:12:45 then ninjacode 21:12:47 #ninjacode 21:12:49 I'll use the D definition that a script is something that allows #! at the start 21:13:26 well, it will allow #! as a comment 21:13:27 :) 21:13:30 anyway, #ninjacode 21:17:45 -!- helios24 has quit ("Leaving"). 21:39:32 -!- Peter3m has joined. 21:44:13 Hi 21:44:18 hello 21:45:17 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:45:56 you are from? 21:46:11 I'm from the UK, anyway 21:48:47 oerjan is from norway! 21:49:19 I am from brazil 21:49:19 i am from the uk! 21:49:31 oklopol is from Kuala Lumpur 21:49:59 I am from teh interwebs 21:51:05 yeah, i admit it, i'm a kualalumpurian hacker 21:51:30 can I be an oompaloompian hacker? 21:52:06 depends. are you good at hacking chocolate? 21:52:22 I get by 21:55:03 i wanna be ouagadougouian ! 21:55:33 don't be silly. no place could have such a ridiculous name. 21:56:14 on moment 21:57:02 llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogochian! 21:57:13 olsner: bless you! 21:57:16 *actual place name* 21:57:24 someone entered a massively long cheat BF entry into my uudecode challenge on codegolf 21:57:27 what was that tangiwanga thing now.. 21:57:29 sorry, Anarchy Golf 21:57:30 ais523: lmao 21:57:40 this is why i love anarchy golf. 21:57:56 it strikes me as a pointless thing to do 21:58:06 they probably just memorised the entire man page for uudecode... 21:58:16 ais523: or used a text generator 21:58:26 also, lots of goruby entries, probably it has a command built in 21:58:51 likewise I'm not sure how Perl could be that short without some sort of unpack magic 21:59:21 -!- Gabriz has joined. 21:59:35 someone got 105 chars of brainfuck in my scheme interpreter 21:59:37 embarrasing 21:59:57 cheating, obviously 22:00:15 duh, you have to: i have wrong parens in one of the examples 22:00:16 :P 22:00:24 specifically 22:00:24 I know 22:00:24 (let ((acc (accgen 4)) 22:02:10 -!- Gabriz has quit (Client Quit). 22:02:16 -!- Gabriz has joined. 22:02:40 What happened? 22:02:59 people submitted cheat entries instead 22:03:46 * oerjan thinks that to prevent cheat entries, the test cases should be longer than a real program 22:03:54 don't know if that is allowed... 22:04:09 that's how I tried to prevent cheats on the uudecode challenge 22:04:16 I used uudecode's man page as the sample output 22:04:51 crazy 22:04:54 :D 22:05:09 ic 22:05:41 anarchy golf should let you provide a test program 22:05:45 i guess to beat that, there needs to be a reference implementation and a test case generator 22:05:49 so along withy our examples, it runs the program with the program 22:05:53 I had the same idea as well 22:05:54 so you can bash it and see if its really 22:06:12 and also get the first entry with certainty 22:06:18 nah 22:06:50 Here are all of England? 22:06:57 have you seen my latest golfing challenge, yet? 22:07:01 Peter3m: no 22:07:07 ais523: which 22:07:09 the problem is to transpose a matrix of characters 22:07:21 and I'm still winning on the two langs where I entered 22:07:26 ah those yes 22:11:43 -!- Gabriz has left (?). 22:12:34 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:17:54 -!- ais523 has quit ("bye"). 22:19:46 now that ais523 is gone, who wants to discuss an esolang designed to be very good for 1. small code size, for golfing 2. easy to refactor to be smaller 3. mostly written in itself, as an stdlib: a very big stdlib, with tons and tons of stuff 4. the core is just a very simple kernel written in C, which compiles the very small core it provides to native code (!!!) and then the rest is done by the stdlib 22:19:59 concatentative, but most of the specifics have been totally-not-decided right now 22:20:02 if so: #ninjacode 22:21:00 :D 22:21:58 something like perl? :P 22:21:59 Any good movie you recommend me? 22:22:12 olsner: nah, not really 22:22:14 :) 22:22:36 olsner: you can't easily refactor perl, it isn't mostly written in itself, and it doesn't have a native-compiling kernel 22:22:50 olsner: but really jokes aside you should join #ninjacode, it's going to be awesome :P 22:22:51 yeah, the analogy is quite imperfect 22:23:37 -!- Peter3m has left (?). 22:35:43 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:42:59 -!- immibis has joined. 22:53:43 -!- timotiis has quit ("leaving"). 22:58:23 -!- glen_quagmire has quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"). 23:43:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:51:23 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 23:53:09 Hmm. 23:53:24 Anarchy golf didn't have a rot13. 23:53:24 Oh well: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?rot13 23:59:40 bah... 26 and 65 both have awful factors.