00:38:14 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 00:40:37 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 00:42:05 -!- rice has changed nick to ehird. 00:43:09 YES 00:43:11 I GOT THIS NICK BACK 00:43:20 WIN 00:43:21 Heh. 00:43:25 LOSE 00:43:36 OK the only nick I need now is Z 00:43:44 which I can have if the guy using it changes nicks (he doesn't own it) 00:43:55 Register it and ghost him. 00:44:13 I can't.. he's online with it, duh 00:44:17 It needs to be dropped. 00:44:25 But: not identified. 00:44:29 So it can be dropped. 00:44:32 Ah. 00:45:20 they appear to be either 00:45:23 -asleep 00:45:23 -a bot 00:45:47 they're in #wikipedia-nl 01:05:03 i can try getting it while you sleep, sounds like a fun objective 01:05:33 damn books are long 01:16:56 oklopol: ok, just go into #freenode, then /whois Z every now and then 01:16:58 if they're gone 01:16:59 /nick Z 01:17:03 and ask for it to be transferred 01:17:05 then, tomorrow 01:17:06 there's no-one called X, but you'd probably be auto-klined for that ;) 01:17:09 tell me the password 01:17:14 Asztal: reserved. 01:17:23 oklopol: you will just steal it yourself won't you :P 01:22:12 oklopol: i can tell! 01:29:55 oklopol: ping 01:31:50 -!- adu has joined. 01:32:02 hi 01:32:07 'Lo. 01:32:17 i'm esoteric 01:32:30 are you an esoteric programmer. 01:32:35 i dunno 01:32:44 well from /whois you are a programmer 01:32:50 the last thing I wrote was in perl, so I guess not 01:32:52 but... befunge? brainfuck? unlambda? underload? intercal? 01:32:55 ah, perl counts 01:33:08 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list pick one. 01:33:13 I wrote a Funge-98 interpreter in perl once... 01:33:23 That counts. 01:33:45 I never got the AB-YZ importing quite right tho 01:33:46 Befunge-98 even counts as good taste. ;) 01:33:55 heh 01:34:36 I really liked funge-space 01:35:00 it was almost like it was a multidimensional array indexed by a polynomial 01:35:15 I like polynomials 01:35:39 no worries about (1, 0) != (1, 0, 0) 01:38:31 is there such a thing as programmer burnout? 01:38:43 Yes 01:39:12 Then you find something new and start again 01:39:22 where one feel the futility of typing any keys that are not going to bring humanity any closer to a future without typing? 01:41:37 for awhile I thought all data could be described by AttributedDefaultList's 01:41:57 faxathisia: whats new for you? 01:42:15 faxathisia: I mean it sounds like you burned-out, what did you find? 01:43:26 auto-klined? 01:43:28 let's check 01:43:33 erroneous 01:44:12 adu, a few times.. lisp earlier I guess, type theory now 01:45:03 ya! Type Theory rocks! 01:45:55 ehird: i won't steal it, just as awesome if i know the owner as it is owning it 01:46:17 oklopol: hehe 01:46:20 (unless there's money involved, in which case i'd have to know you more closely ;)) 01:46:41 one-letter nicks: the best way to gain popularity 01:46:50 heh 01:47:02 i just find stuff like that inherently awesome. 01:47:25 oklopol: what? 01:47:34 -!- Asztal has changed nick to ^. 01:47:39 adu: short nicks in a big network 01:47:41 just like that 01:47:42 <^> bah, owned 01:47:44 :) 01:47:49 -!- ^ has changed nick to Asztal. 01:47:57 o 01:48:05 if i got "o", i'd prolly use that one 01:48:13 for obvious reasons 01:49:03 need to continue the book, kinda lame not finishing books in one go 01:49:04 -> 01:49:09 I implemented an esolang! I think 01:50:04 It's kind of eso .. anyway but the damn self intepreter doesn't work 01:50:28 So I have to write a debugger -_- 01:50:36 I want to make a lang based on AttributedDefaultLists's 01:55:33 just FYI, what I imagine a AttributedDefaultList to be is similar to a hybrid between a python dict and list, and an XML element with those attributes and stuff, only the keys of the attributes are evaluated at runtime, and the values can only be obtained by "getting" the attribute. All elements of a AttributedDefaultList that are not key'ed members are excecuted in order. 01:56:46 so its possible to do something like this: 01:56:47 (if $a then $b else $c) := {True: $b; _: $c}[$a] 01:57:04 I don't think you'd even need functions at all... 01:57:36 just AttributedDefaultList's :) 01:59:32 I wonder if i should try and implement it 01:59:41 You should 01:59:57 This is utterly baffling :D 02:00:02 hehe 02:01:00 o is taken 02:01:03 lol 02:01:09 z is droppable though. 02:01:42 -!- adu has changed nick to i. 02:01:46 Bwahaha! 02:01:49 -!- i has changed nick to adu. 02:02:09 sorry 02:05:09 faxathisia: do you understand the "{True: $b; _: $c}[$a]" part? 02:05:20 Yes 02:05:24 o ok 02:06:07 that would be the esolang, and "(if $a then $b else $c)" is just its everyday equivalent 02:11:00 hahahaha, I picked my favorite esolang! 02:11:04 x-D 02:11:36 adu: which? :D 02:11:44 is Xigxzg related to Zigzag? 02:11:50 http://esolangs.org/wiki/X-D 02:12:11 adu: btw 02:12:24 (if $a then $b else $c) is {False: $c; _: $b}[$a] 02:12:33 since, all non-False things are true in just about everything 02:13:05 ehird: ok, whatever, if I make the language you can use {False: $c; _: $b}[$a] however you want! that is the power of AttributedDefaultList's! 02:13:39 ehird: thank you for the technical correction 02:13:52 mind blowing 02:13:58 *blind mowingh 02:14:36 Could you embed AttributedDefaultList's in some existing language? 02:14:40 sure 02:16:22 its easy in python, just subclass both list and defaultdict, and test for int/str in the __getitem__ method 02:17:32 but that will evaluate the values, which is not right... 02:17:34 hmm 02:17:49 the values in (key:value) pairs must remain unevaluated... 02:18:12 I'll have to think about it 02:19:37 the int/str distinction will also imply that the final implemented would have to require at least two types 02:19:41 adu: they're basically hash tables. 02:19:45 which, if infinite, are functions. 02:19:49 so: nothing really revolutionary 02:19:53 yes 02:20:57 but can a language with only finite hash tables mimic functions? 02:21:19 I suppose thats what a turing machine is... n/m 02:21:43 oklopol: z is still alive 02:22:13 I wish all hash tables looked the same. 02:22:44 like when you're editing a cron tab, or updating a customer database, or passing options to a commandline tool 02:22:48 too many formats 02:25:20 adu: at least i and ehird have invented that, and i'm fairly sure there are languages out there that have it already :) 02:25:42 in fact, the last days i've been thinking about optimizing a pattern-matchable hash-table 02:26:06 which is a generalization of a hash-table, and infinite hash-table, and a function 02:26:12 (pretty much equivalent.) 02:26:16 like a Haskell-like case statement? 02:26:21 yes. 02:26:24 nice 02:26:29 but... 02:26:40 i think a haskell-like LAMBDA might be better... 02:26:46 yup 02:26:55 cuz that has case builtin 02:27:53 yeah, i assume you're bringing case in to get the pattern matching? 02:28:27 So it is you (and ehird) who invented my favorite concept!? Many thanks to you, and your ideas 02:28:38 :) 02:28:43 :) 02:28:45 we came up with it independantly 02:28:46 :P 02:28:47 it's one of my favorite concepts too 02:28:49 indeed. 02:29:25 ok, i'll go for now. 02:29:28 oklopol: make sure to nab Z! 02:29:30 ok 02:29:33 i'll try 02:29:36 -!- ehird has quit. 02:30:56 also been thinking more about graphs a lot, i think those might be my favorite :P 02:31:01 *-moer 02:31:02 * 02:31:05 *-more 02:31:19 ...oh btw, did i mention GRAPHICA yet in this conversation? 02:31:26 graphs are cool 02:31:31 nope 02:31:41 you know haskell? 02:31:56 I came up with a way to super-impose a graph-based filesystem ontop of unix 02:32:09 i tell first! :D 02:32:18 oklopol: I wrote a matrix row-reduction algorithm in Haskell once, I don't remember much... only the basics 02:32:25 okay 02:32:36 well, you know how the data works in general 02:32:42 ya 02:32:45 just mean the named node tree syntax 02:32:59 List = Head, List | Nil 02:33:15 may not be correct haskell, but you get it, hopefully 02:33:55 basically, you have a bnf-like description of an object, where a left side leads into a right side which again contains modes that are branched to 02:34:03 right 02:34:04 say "wtf" if i'm not making sense 02:34:07 good 02:34:18 this only allows for trees 02:34:27 so, i was thinking, why not expand it a bit 02:34:36 in graphica, you can pass parameters to the nodes 02:34:49 and you have a namespace global to each graph object 02:35:01 now, here comes the interesting part 02:35:08 well, the part i found interesting enough to implement it 02:35:17 you can name nodes as you go 02:35:37 and if you happen to name a node with a name that's already been used 02:35:49 it is considered the same node as earlier 02:35:57 meaning you can carry stuff around and "loop back" 02:36:14 for finite graphs, i find it a very interesting way to create graphs 02:36:31 + refactor a bit to get only one "graphs" there 02:36:41 did you get it? i'd love to show code ;) 02:37:01 Graphica in {graphic design firm, Mathematica package, graffiti website}? 02:37:35 i guess it's a back...something from graphs + Mathematica 02:37:37 Nice 02:37:38 oh 02:37:48 you mean something you've seen published? 02:38:07 i have only spoken about it here and on another chan, basically 02:38:56 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p632626363.txt examples! 02:39:07 oklopol: no, I was wondering which Graphica you were talking about 02:39:20 the one of my own 02:39:27 the one you haven't heard about, ever 02:39:48 o ok 02:39:57 the newer version has lists too, so those could be simplified a bit 02:40:21 :: names a node into the graph namespace 02:40:29 <-> makes a connection 02:40:33 as do <- and -> 02:40:44 = is redirection of node creation 02:40:58 so you can do stuff like default parameters 02:41:07 without making an additional node. 02:41:58 tell me if you get any of that, it's always nice to get comments 02:45:14 hmm 02:45:23 I'm reading about 20 languages right now 02:45:46 i'm interpreting about two meanings right now 02:46:18 Theres this one programming language I wish I could remember what it was called 02:46:39 Like? 02:50:05 it was declarative 02:50:35 All I remember about it was that there was a presentation about it in which he started off with 3 built-in objects, copied them and made new objects 02:54:41 it was really cool 02:54:45 darn 02:55:17 well, anyways, its not that important 02:55:29 I just wanted to show you, becasue I thought you might like it 02:56:46 3 built-in objects... t ::= v | t t | λv.t ? 02:57:59 no, they were things like Identity, Link, and Variable or something 03:08:00 let's make a language based on Nonsense, Nothing and Never 03:08:22 do any of them take arguments? 03:08:26 Never is obviously the looping construct 03:08:30 i don't know 03:08:33 are they functions? 03:08:51 Nothing is the basic object 03:08:58 Nonsense is how you make structures 03:09:09 overall, it's a very weird language 03:09:15 i'll continue coding now ;) 03:09:33 I like that idea 03:10:03 me too, i'm just afraid i'm inventing another nopol 03:10:21 (nopol is a language based on no-operation) 03:10:33 technically. 03:11:03 it has a weird system of multiple interpreters of nop lists, each executing the next 03:11:11 and nothing does nothing 03:11:15 uhhh, i love my languages 03:11:20 NOW i'll continue -> 03:11:54 Never could be some sort of constraints system 03:12:02 indeed 03:12:11 Nonsense is what makes it kinda weird ;) 03:12:22 although it is undoubtedly the most interesting sounding 03:12:51 perhaps this is *the language where a program states every program it is not* 03:12:57 oklopol: is nopol turing-complete? 03:13:13 adu: nopol, unfortunately, is far from ready 03:13:32 the concepts of it are very weird, i see no direct connection to any existing language 03:13:42 there are lists though, so probably. 03:15:15 (whereas in most languages, you can only unnest to a certain degree: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=[] -> [[]] -> [], in nopol, negative nesting lists are possible!) 03:15:21 umm 03:15:33 where did that wikipedia article come from. 03:15:36 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=[] 03:15:37 ... 03:15:41 [ [ [ ] ] ] 03:15:46 is what i tried to type 03:15:57 i love these *intelligent* clients <3 03:22:11 hmm 03:22:20 I can't find it 03:22:36 can't find what? 03:22:43 it was something short like "clean" or "pure" or "small" or "codeless" or something 03:22:51 Clean? 03:23:04 that's a haskell-like, iirc 03:28:29 nope 03:30:22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_(programming_language) 03:30:30 "based on graph rewriting" 03:30:48 i was fearing i'd bump into graph rewriting some day :< 03:34:23 I found it! 03:34:30 found it! found it! found it! 03:34:35 coooool 03:34:37 Its called 'subtext' 03:35:06 http://subtextual.org/ 03:35:10 :) 03:36:55 ah 03:41:25 But anyways, we all know that graphs are representable as a set of triples (see W3C's RDF if you are not convinced), so the idea I had for superimposing a graph structure on a file system was to have a special file (or xattr on the parent dir) that contains a list of tripples (inode, arcName, inode) so that all files in that directory could be part of a graph (and still be within the directory that are in according to VFS). 03:42:15 thats my graph-on-VFS idea 03:42:29 heh, i actually "came up with" that exact thing today 03:42:30 i mean 03:42:35 the theoretical aspect of it 03:42:39 o 03:42:41 ok 03:42:51 that you can simulate any graph using tuples of three 03:42:57 yup 03:43:11 kinda like you can simulate finite/infinite lists with pairs ;) 03:43:23 yeah 03:43:35 hmm... 03:43:52 pairs are triples in scheme 03:43:57 if you consider them graphically 03:44:08 it's just there's one "in" and two "outs" 03:44:08 what? 03:44:14 what? 03:44:25 well 03:44:31 there's a *parent* 03:44:45 oh, doubly-linked-lists 03:44:48 ic now 03:44:49 which means you can only go one direction inside a list, but a scheme list can represend any tree 03:44:57 *represent 03:45:00 i mean 03:45:01 any graph 03:45:15 right, all trees can be represented as binary trees 03:45:16 oh, right, i fail a bit here 03:45:28 you can actually point to a pair any times, of course 03:45:35 so makes no sense to call it a triple. 03:45:45 perhaps you could just call it a pair... :D 03:45:56 that makes sense :) 03:46:08 at first you were starting to convince me that 2 == 3 03:46:15 :) 03:46:17 :) 03:46:50 was just thinking... it's a bit different from triples as in "nodes with three connections", since with pairs it's "nodes with 2 connections out, and any number of connections in" 03:47:23 a pointer is a one-directional link to another node 03:47:28 and you have two of those links in a pair. 03:47:55 not sure what i'm trying to say here, was hoping i'd hit something profound, but didn't, and kept blabbering ;) 03:54:25 I think the 3 most important structures to have are Trees Tables and Graphs. 03:54:51 Since unix already has trees (VFS) and tables (CSV), the only thing left is to superimpose graphs... 03:55:03 thats why I tried to fit them together :) 03:55:21 tables as in what? 03:55:27 like, relations 03:55:40 those thingies in dbs 03:55:43 db's 03:56:00 well db's, and like /etc/fstab 03:56:31 well, databases are basically sets 03:57:11 well, everything should be reduced to graphs really 03:57:12 ! 03:57:16 Huh? 03:57:20 well, when you consider 'sort' all files are sets :) 03:57:58 oklopol: no you need tables too, otherwise you would have to make them anyways to ensure rectangularity 03:58:50 what's rectangularity? 03:58:58 i prolly know the concept 03:59:02 but not the term 03:59:21 like {{1,2},{3,4}} is rectangular, but {{1}, {2, 3, 4}} is not 03:59:41 oh, that kinda tables 03:59:49 ya 04:00:04 i thought you meant something like orthogonality 04:00:25 which when you consider types (which don't exist in UNIX text), then you can interpret them as DB tables as well, if all elements in a given column are of the same type 04:00:32 which i think has some meaning when it comes to databases. 04:00:38 like ZigZag-type orthogonality? 04:00:55 something about functional dependencies 04:01:12 the terminology is goddamn robust 04:01:15 everything means everything 04:01:21 everything is everything 04:01:23 there is nothing 04:01:25 yes! 04:01:32 lets write a manifesto about it! :) 04:01:48 :o 04:02:03 let's make an esolang out of it! 04:02:04 grrr.. I dont want to write a debugger 04:02:20 "everything is everything" is actually my official oklotalk phrase 04:02:34 lol 04:02:47 I wonder if that would work 04:03:03 well, everything is an object & everything contains all => everything is everything 04:03:12 basically. 04:03:26 except i take it to ridiculous extent in some parts of the language. 04:03:51 I once came up with a model of the universe, only instead of basing things on "Unification" like how an electron and a positron combine to form a photon, but "Separation" as the fundamental action that breaks a photon into an electron and a positron 04:04:19 i don't think i understand enough physics. 04:04:41 I wonder if its possible to write a language based on Separation (breaking "Nothing" up), rather than Combination (putting Things together). 04:05:08 make sense? 04:05:10 :DD 04:05:13 that's awesome 04:05:21 NNN is back on the table! 04:05:22 you see 04:05:29 it's not Nothing that's split 04:05:32 it's Nonsense 04:05:46 Nonsense is the *all combinations* object 04:05:50 a huge mess of course! 04:06:11 ...and something really poetic 04:06:15 because when you break "Nothing" into pieces like for example along the "Bit" dimension, then we get two things from that separation("Bit" and "Not Bit"), and we all know that all computation can be represented by this :) 04:06:16 ...and there's the esolang! 04:06:27 hmm 04:06:46 heh 04:06:56 sounds like fun 04:07:09 or we could separate again Sep("Bit" along "Truth") = {"True", "False"} 04:07:36 it really doesn't matter which is which as long as you give each part of a separation a name 04:07:40 ...could there be Nonsense? 04:07:57 * oklopol needs nonsense 04:08:02 lol 04:08:17 You could call things whatever you want 04:09:07 I call the root object "Unity", but you can call it "Nothing" they're equivalent when you're talking about the root of everything (which is the same as nothing if you haven't made that distinction yet) 04:09:57 can you recombine, or is there just some serious entanglement? 04:10:05 i prefer the latter, for it sounds less boring 04:10:15 although i don't exactly know what it would mean . 04:10:24 well, I think that is far down the road 04:10:54 but I think there is a way of deriving the concept of "Inverse function" and once you have that concept, then Combine = InverseFunction[Sep] 04:11:37 Separation is like a tree 04:11:52 depending on how far up the tree you are they may or may not be the same thing 04:12:26 but since you Can recombine after several separations, it would end up being more like a graph than a tree I think. 04:13:06 hmm, all i can think of is graphica 04:13:10 :) 04:13:27 (i'm fairly incestous about my projects) 04:14:55 -!- immibis has joined. 04:15:54 anyways, i'm getting tired 04:16:08 maybe I'll be on this weekend, and we can talk about graphica again 04:16:14 :) 04:16:29 i may have a new obsession then, this new thing seems quite interesting 04:16:38 but cya 04:17:35 what new thing? 04:17:59 not a programming language 04:18:04 just some graphical thingie 04:18:22 making a program for representing tree operations graphically 04:18:26 with happy bouncing balls! 04:19:11 ok 04:19:13 l8r 04:19:20 an obsession can of course only be a programming language, but you never know what you invent when playing with stuff like this 04:19:24 -!- immibis has left (?). 04:19:30 yeah, byes 04:19:42 bye 04:19:49 -!- adu has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:35:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:52:18 Slereah: Hi? 04:54:32 Hi. 04:55:59 You have read, To Mock A Mockingbird?? 04:58:47 I have it. 04:58:59 I only read two chapters so far. 05:00:03 Did you write any program to solve the "Make X out of A B C" puzzles? 05:00:37 So far I did the puzzle by hand. 05:00:42 And failed, but oh well 05:00:47 me too 05:01:31 I also wrote a program in my break but it wasn't complete 05:02:38 okay, how the fuck did i ever program in python... you can't do *anything* without first-class continuations 05:03:16 I wonder that about anyone who writes in python :P 05:03:32 :) 05:03:56 It is an interesting program to write though.. 05:04:10 well, generators are okay, it's just feels kinda stupid hacking something with them when you are just simulating call/cc in an awkward manner 05:04:27 (because the complexity is grows so steep) 05:04:29 Good thing I don't know what a first class continuation is! 05:04:40 Otherwise, I might feel self conscious when coding 05:05:10 what i'm trying to do is: i have a sorting algo, a tree structure and a main loop 05:05:40 i should run the sorting function, and every time it changes the tree, the tree should return to the main loop, which would tell it when to return to the sorting algo again 05:05:58 you may realize why i'm having problems. 05:06:14 (or come up with a trivial solution, quickly, tell me) 05:06:55 the mutations of the tree should be shown on the screen, which is why the main loop. 05:07:19 Yes, I would use call-with-current-continuation for that 05:08:06 seems impossible to do that, while separating 1. the algo 2. the main loop 3. the actual tree 4. the graphical tree with movements 05:08:40 ofc it's trivial to hack up some fucked up shit (if that's the correct term for it) 05:09:12 thats a fantastic quote :) 05:09:12 there would be no problem if i just altered the topmost tree 05:09:28 the problem is, i need to get subtrees, and traverse through them and all :\ 05:09:39 so... the LazyList will become HUGGGGGGGGGGGGE 05:09:45 fantastic? thanks :) 05:10:03 i'm pretty fantastilicious 05:11:59 I think the OISC on the Love Machine 9000 will be something like [space][ bunch of 1's][space][ bunch of 1's][space][ bunch of 1's]... 05:12:46 Possibly two symbols for describing input and outpub 05:15:26 INTERESTING FACT: 9000 is pronounced "nain tausönd" in finnish, and "nain" means "i fuck" 05:15:29 coincidence? 05:15:39 Well, it is full of love. 05:15:48 indeed! 05:16:12 well, pretty much every english words is something naught in finnish 05:16:39 *naughty 05:17:12 9 oklopol ? 05:17:27 almost 05:17:37 you have to put oklopol in partitive 05:17:41 "nain oklopolia" 05:17:47 *then* you're fucking me 05:19:10 sweet 05:19:32 quite 05:19:43 The Love Machine 9 Oklopolia :o 05:19:48 :D 05:19:58 actually, in that case, it's not "nain", it's "nai" 05:20:16 Also, Oklopolia has 3 o's, so it's good to replace 000 05:20:27 which happens to be lojban for a kind of "no" 05:20:36 :) 05:21:35 "Slereah the Love Machine: 9 oklopolia" could definitely be a gay porn flick title though. 05:21:48 because then it's ...I-tive again 05:21:59 (I-tive is the form where "I" is the subject) 05:22:15 Well, Turing would be proud that his creation serves the purpose of gay sex even today. 05:22:31 i'm sure he would! 05:23:02 call...cc...i.....need......asfdasdf 05:23:12 It always seems weird to me. Turing seems to be the only famous gay scientist without going back to antiquity. 05:24:43 -!- immibis_ has joined. 05:25:54 my opinion that completely differs from everything we know about psychology: homosexuality cannot be born with, all sexualities "grow on you" given enough exposure; the super geniuses are too busy thinking to build up a "deviance", where deviance is something different from the main stream sexuality 05:26:23 i stand firmly behind that ridiculous assertion! 05:26:33 So Turing saved his week ends for deviance building? 05:27:17 hmm 05:27:58 i have no idea :\ 05:28:00 too tired to think 05:30:17 basically, i'd want to use call/cc to send a continuation to the sort function implicitly, so that it'd get passed to the tree functions, which would call/cc the continuation with their own continuation 05:30:23 I'd guess that an entirely nature or an entirely nurture explanation for homosexuality is oversimplifying things. Homosexuality is associated with notably different brain chemistry (for the person's gender), so I'd guess there's an inherited propensity that's either repressed or reinforced based on the person's experiences 05:30:36 so it'd be Main -> Sort -> Tree -> Main -> Tree -> Sort -> Tree -> Main -> Tree etc 05:31:04 Many diseases, conditions and other types of deviations work like this. 05:31:11 true. 05:31:30 now solve my python problem! 05:31:43 i think it's helpful to think of sexual orientations and paraphilias as the same thing 05:32:21 yeah, doesn't feel so bad when you realize you have all of them 05:33:09 hmm, people are leaving for school 05:33:14 must be morning 05:33:26 6 AM here. 05:33:32 well, 6:33 05:33:35 7:37 here, looks like 05:33:35 and of course (bi|pan)sexuality is the perfect state, with no paraphilias :P 05:33:40 I'm leaving in one hour and a half 05:33:54 bsmntbombdood: depends what paraphilia means 05:34:19 i'm using paraphilia to mean an inability to become sexually aroused without a certain stimulus 05:34:26 oh, i see 05:34:47 but not as "*will* get stimulus also out of certain stimuli" 05:35:07 i think that's a more common definition, although i'd rather agree with yours 05:35:24 i doubt *will* get aroused occurs very often 05:35:46 well, let's say can get aroused. 05:35:54 your standard gynephile certainly isn't aroused by all women 05:35:59 bsmntbombdood: saying pansexuality is a perfect state is analagous to saying that an undifferentiated infant brain is a perfect state. 05:36:30 In what way? 05:36:30 no, it's like saying a brain with no prejudices is the perfect state 05:36:31 or, a matter of opinion about sexuality 05:36:31 I find "perfect" to be more useful in this case when defined as "closest to average" 05:37:00 perfect has to be defined as farther than the farthest from average... 05:37:30 closest to average is equivalent to closest to the intended design, from an evolutionary standpoint. 05:37:32 everyone's perfect, have a medal and some candy! 05:37:45 -!- immibis_ has left (?). 05:38:12 RodgerTheGreat: sure about that? perhaps closest to a local maximum, but i don't think that's necessarily perfect 05:38:14 only in non-superficial components 05:38:20 this is why "perfect" isn't a very appropriate term here- it brings with it many connotations that don't make any sense in this context 05:39:01 i think it was quite unambiguous, but i also think RodgerTheGreat is always right. 05:39:13 i don't see any problem with having contradictory opinions though. 05:39:35 But also you see problems with it! 05:39:58 for example, the perfect value for the number of legs in a human is of course the average, but the perfect value of facial-hotness is far above average 05:40:33 actually... 05:40:35 I like my faces with legs on them 05:41:47 I don't have the paper to back myself up here, but some studies I've read suggest that the "ideal" or "perfect" face is in many ways, geometrically, an average of facial variability 05:42:18 i'm familiar 05:42:18 the perfect face can be geometrically defined in terms of the "Golden Ratio" 05:42:56 * oklopol makes a pun about the shower with the same name to lighten things up 05:43:14 If we ignore population distribution of different features, the ideal body image is pretty close to an average, too 05:43:28 no 05:43:40 somewhere between fat and skinny, between short and tall, etc 05:43:43 if a certain feature becomes common, it will cease to be used for sexual selection 05:44:32 bsmntbombdood: I'm getting there- it's important to recognize that these averages can change over time, and so, accordingly, will this definition of "perfection" 05:45:10 if everyone is within less than a standard deviation of "perfection" in a feature, for example, it will be naturally less valued 05:45:16 oh i see where the misunderstanding is 05:45:48 i was talking about an average attractiveness rating, and you were talking about the average distance betweens eyes, etc 05:47:47 yeah, quantitative averages 05:48:12 Let's build the perfect people! 05:48:23 Where's my handsaw? 05:49:27 I don't think plastic surgery is nuanced enough for that just yet 05:49:49 and really, wouldn't the availability of perfection cheapen it? 05:50:15 Well, I'll only do it for like a bajillion dollars 05:51:56 The other thing to consider is that most people color their visions of perfection with their own preferences and the preferences that have been instilled in them by mass media, upbringing, etc. There does exist a single ideal, but everyone has their own deviating model for beauty. That's why it's entirely possible for two people to disagree about the attractiveness of someone, with both being correct 05:54:36 "correct" 05:55:18 as I was saying before, many of the words used here are pretty treacherous because they carry too many implications 05:55:43 Let's speak in Ithkuil. 05:56:07 Let's avoid unnecessary pedantry. 05:56:54 * oklopol will let you avoid it. 05:57:08 woohoo. 05:57:30 can you think of a better pun from that? 05:57:51 it requires one 05:57:57 I was going to say "perfect", but that would've been pretty subtle 05:58:53 i didn't get the pun 05:58:56 and on a related subject, i got my iterator working! 05:59:19 Yay! 05:59:24 Perfect! 05:59:31 oklopol: what language? oklotalk? 05:59:37 i'm not sure if it works if you have english as your native language 05:59:53 let's = let us, tried my best to interpret that as a direct order 06:00:09 RodgerTheGreat: unfortunately just something simple i'm doing in python 06:00:19 aw. :( 06:00:46 it's funny how functional languages have call/cc, and you actually *need* it most with imperative stuff :D 06:00:53 at least that's my experience 06:01:14 often need to do some kinda collaborative threading when doing computation and drawing at the same time 06:01:30 well, i guess that's the main case. 06:01:52 scheme is pretty imperative 06:02:02 well, true. 06:02:39 hmm... your mother? 06:02:53 Zing 06:03:00 Zong 06:04:40 in my opinion, functional languages are pretty and clean looking, but are an *inherently* inefficient way of programming, because they don't work remotely like conventional hardware does. Magical perfect compilers that can optimize in every conceivable fashion could theoretically balance this, but Magical perfect compilers do not exist. I like my imperative languages. 06:05:08 I can't find a better right bracket in high Unicode that Firefox supports for punycode than 2046 (right square bracket with quill) 06:05:09 for esolangs, they can be quite fun brain exercises, though 06:05:09 :( 06:05:43 RodgerTheGreat: i don't need efficiency though 06:06:02 If I buy http://,[.,].com, will anybody put content there? :p 06:06:07 oklopol: that concept does not fit inside my head 06:06:18 well, it'd be 99bottles except for cats 06:06:43 RodgerTheGreat: why not? how i see it, is computers are so fast nothing can possibly be slow on them :-) 06:07:12 -!- Steik has joined. 06:07:20 -!- Steik has left (?). 06:07:23 oklopol:That's what I thought! 06:07:34 Until I ran some LazyBird program 06:07:41 ow, ow. My brain is hurting. Everything I've ever learned about algorithms and programming fights this concept 06:07:48 :D 06:08:04 okay, sorry, i'll try to be less mentally violent 06:08:18 anyway, I'm going to sleep. 'later, folks 06:08:23 ``m``s``bs``b`s``c``b``c`t`k0ki#``c``bc``c``bc``b`ci`k.xri``c``bb``sii``b``c``bc``b`bc``c``bc``b`bb``cb``b`bttkii``b`m``sbi``sb`m``sbi 06:08:23 nights 06:08:36 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit. 06:08:36 It takes minutes upon minutes to display! 06:08:50 what's it do? 06:09:33 It prints 20 *, then 19, then 18, and so on. The program stops after 1. 06:12:29 i love it when trivial stuff takes ages 06:12:43 you really feel you're giving your machine a task 06:12:47 It's pretty much... ((^x.xx)(^xy.(y is zero) (v)(y(print *)(xx predy)))n 06:13:11 Where v is the unlambda v. 06:13:20 (Except it's # in the code) 06:13:37 pretty much like that? so i'll just check what that does, get the general picture and guess the rest? 06:13:54 wait for a week, i'll look 06:13:59 Heh. 06:14:17 I probably have the thing written in lambda-for-lazy-bird somewhere 06:15:09 what's y? 06:15:14 oh 06:15:15 right 06:15:17 heh 06:15:27 It's to be replaced by n. 06:15:38 Dern, ehird` isn't here to encourage me to buy ,].com :P 06:15:50 buybuybubyubybuy!!!!!! 06:16:06 Will YOU put content there? 06:16:14 it'll be full of lolcats and cat's in different langs! 06:16:19 YES I WILL 06:16:24 What kind of content do you want! 06:16:35 CATS MAYBE? DID I SUGGEST THAT YET? 06:16:53 i want a cat, they're awesome 06:17:25 I was thinking ... y'know ... stuff about BF :P 06:17:38 ``m^x^y``````s`o`k`k0`kky#```y.xri``xx```s``s`ks``s`k`s`ks``s``s`ks``s`k`s`ks``s``s`ks``s`k`s`ks``s`k`s`kkk`k``s`k`s`k`s`k`si``s`k`s`k`s``s`ksk``s`k`s`k`s`kk``s`k`s`kkk`k`kk`k`k`kiy^f^x`f`f`f`fx 06:17:44 Here's a vaguely lambda version 06:17:56 But it's probably not a working one 06:18:37 GregorR: ok then, brainfuck cat programs 06:18:42 ... 06:18:53 Well, it will be a short website 06:18:59 :P 06:18:59 * oklopol thinks his cat suggestion doesn't work as supposed 06:19:05 Hell, the content is in the adress! 06:19:32 Is ⁆ acceptable? 06:19:44 It's the closest I can get to ] that works (at least in FFox) 06:19:50 i can't see that 06:19:55 I can. 06:20:00 :( 06:20:05 invisible cats! 06:20:10 on a visible bike! 06:20:46 oklopol: Get a better IRC client :P 06:21:00 Doesn't work in Konq, but Konq doesn't seem to support Punycode at all (this version) 06:21:03 i just changed again :) 06:21:13 THEN CHANGE SOME MOAR 06:21:30 i don't think i'm man enough 06:21:43 But... are you BAD ENOUGH A DUDE? 06:21:53 Are you TOO TOUGH FOR HELL TO CONTAIN? 06:22:05 When you will be, at last Hell will play fair. 06:22:08 * oklopol is scared 06:23:16 Can somebody with Opera, IE or Safari go to ،⁆.com and see what happens? 06:26:58 *chirp chirp* 06:27:22 *woof woof* 06:27:45 *glob glob* 06:27:45 bsmntbombdood: Have an alternate browser? 06:27:57 i suppose i could start opera.... 06:28:13 Even one other browser agreeing would be nice :P 06:28:47 he URL http://،⁆.com contains characters that are not valid in the location they are found. 06:28:54 :( 06:29:12 firefox gives the same error 06:29:33 Uhhh, it works fine for me in FFox 06:29:38 It must not have copied properly. 06:29:40 One sec. 06:30:01 oh hmm 06:30:14 when i did the thing it didn't wor 06:30:32 when i did the other thing it did, but echoed it as "www.xn--ufb245k.com" 06:30:38 That's good. 06:30:48 In Opera? 06:31:04 Did that to me in Firefox 06:31:14 no, firefox 06:31:18 I've already tested it in FFox, it works there ;P 06:33:14 Maybe in Imagination Land! 06:33:33 ... you both just confirmed that it works. 06:34:11 Oh. 06:34:16 Well, kudos then 06:36:52 Solid state physics exam in one hour :( 06:37:17 You people and your physical universe. 06:38:59 Think of it as a gigantic game of Life! 06:40:50 english class in 7 hours :( 06:41:18 I do not fear Englsih 06:41:27 CS class in 2 months :( 06:41:31 Although tht typo makes it look stupid 06:41:36 Aaaargh 06:41:43 Me cunt spoll :((( 06:41:49 nothing in 200 hours :< 06:41:55 Damn you people! 06:41:59 (more like 100, but anyways) 06:42:09 oh 06:42:16 GregorR kinda pwned me 06:42:33 :P 06:42:39 * GregorR isn't doing anything winter term :P 06:42:41 school is stupid 06:43:00 Except for buying random brainfuck-themed web pages of course :P 06:43:07 (Or considering it anyway) 06:43:27 that's a full-day job 06:45:58 In a Kolmogorov machine, do the vertex contains symbols? 06:45:59 -!- Slereah has changed nick to slereah_. 06:46:01 -!- slereah_ has changed nick to slereah__. 06:54:41 slereah__: i don't think so 06:54:56 It be melting my brain 06:55:00 Damn you Andrey! 06:55:28 the esolang page description sounds awfully close to graphica... 06:56:00 in case that's what it's equivalent to, i consider it pretty advanced though. 06:56:18 (although i haven't yet implemented the rewriting part) 07:16:25 OK, if I bought this BF-themed domain name, nobody would put anything there. 07:16:28 So I'm not buying it. 07:16:54 :) 07:17:00 you're being too rational 07:17:28 I already have four domain names .... that's $40/yr 8-O 07:17:59 hey, it's not about money 07:18:04 it's about being spontaneous 07:18:09 In that case, give me $5! :P 07:27:09 Opera can't handle it anyway :( 07:59:27 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:54 Heh, I can get a C-ish domain :P 08:41:39 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("ok, who cut the cable on akamai?"). 10:52:02 I have 0 domain names. 10:52:17 That's... $0, approximatively 11:00:34 Is there anything with an example of the execution of a Kogloglo machine? 11:00:45 The closest I can find is the wiki article with the pointer machines 11:01:23 But the Glook machine is apparently poorly documented on the interweb. 11:30:22 -!- timotiis has joined. 12:58:12 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:58:13 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 13:01:34 -!- jix has joined. 13:14:20 -!- slereah__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:14:24 -!- slereah__ has joined. 13:32:41 -!- slereah__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:32:56 -!- slereah__ has joined. 13:58:02 -!- RedDak has joined. 14:08:35 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 14:08:49 hey guys 14:09:46 Hello. 14:09:54 So RodgerTheGreat, how tall are you? 14:10:38 why do you ask? 14:11:22 To see how great you are! 14:11:41 5'11" 14:12:09 although I think you're using the wrong definition of "great" there 14:12:16 Am I? 14:12:24 I wasn't aware! 14:13:28 "(the Great) a title denoting the most important person of the name. ex: Alexander the Great" 14:14:09 lucky for me, "Rodger" isn't a tremendously common name, so I don't have as much competition as some people 14:15:12 None that Wikipedia can find! 14:15:42 -!- ehird has joined. 14:16:41 oklopol: get Z? 14:17:51 bah, nope 14:20:21 -!- slereah__ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:26:14 -!- slereah_ has joined. 14:29:45 -!- slereah_ has changed nick to Slereah. 14:30:27 who wants to work on the underload->c compiler! 14:31:27 :( 14:34:36 not Slereah. 14:34:39 apparently 14:35:06 I'm not a big fan of C. 14:35:15 And I do'nt know much of Underload 14:36:08 underload is digestible in a few minutes 14:36:12 also, the compiler isn't written in C 14:36:13 :P 14:36:59 Yes, but you must translate it to C! 14:38:46 Sure... but it's very simple :P 14:40:12 Well, the... second attempt at the Love Machine 9000 was a LV9->C compiler 14:40:22 But boy was I in for a disappointment! 14:44:16 -!- faxathisia has quit (Connection timed out). 14:44:57 Underload is simple. 15:12:16 :) 15:13:34 I'm not very used to stacks 15:15:06 (:aSS):aSS 15:15:09 Lulz 15:23:58 i'll explain that to you: 15:24:06 code [stackelement,stackelement,...,top] 15:24:14 (:aSS):aSS [] 15:24:32 :aSS [:aSS] (...) just pushes what's in it to the stack, like a string 15:24:45 aSS [:aSS,:aSS] : duplicates 15:24:50 -!- helios24 has joined. 15:25:01 SS [:aSS,(:aSS)] 'a' wraps the top string on the stack in parens. 15:25:18 S [:aSS] we output the top, and pop it. (:aSS), that is 15:25:24 [] we output the top, and pop it. :aSS, that is 15:25:29 so: we outputted "(:aSS):aSS" 15:25:35 which is our code, ergo we have a quine! 15:25:42 Slereah: got that? 15:27:02 Yes. 15:27:09 Just one stack? 15:27:26 Yep 15:27:36 Slereah: It's turing complete by way of ^ 15:27:53 i'll step you through (:^):^ 15:28:09 :^ [:^] we push the stuff in parens to the stack 15:28:18 ^ [:^,:^] duplicate 15:28:34 :^ [:^] pop an element off the stack, and place it after the current instruction 15:28:41 ^ [:^,:^] duplicate 15:28:43 :^ [:^] pop an element off the stack, and place it after the current instruction 15:28:44 ............... 15:29:17 'kay 15:29:32 Slereah: now combined with 'a' to enclose the top element in parens, and * to concatentate the top two elements together, and you make kinda-self-modifying-stuff-thingies to do loops etc 15:31:04 Love the self interpreter. 15:37:22 Time for pen and paper programming. 15:37:36 On the table, unary OISC :O 15:39:29 If I substract a negative value, should it add? 15:43:22 yes 15:46:57 I assume negative adress locations should be treated as errors? 15:48:39 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:48:49 -!- jix has joined. 16:11:43 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:23:31 A Turing machine is a poor device for arithmetic. 16:41:41 working with unary isn't that bad 16:42:47 It's mostly the travel on the tape to one adress to the other for substraction that bothers me 16:44:15 Hm. Now that I think of it, instead of copying the code on a second tape to avoid losing some stuff while working on it, I could just replace 1's with some symbol to mean that they've been used. 16:47:49 yes. That's how we learned to use TMs in my formal models of computation class 16:48:01 we actually worked exclusively with single-tape machines 16:49:18 I usually start big programs on two tapes. 16:49:23 Or moar 16:49:29 And then try to reduce it to one. 16:50:29 I dunno if you're using an alternate notation, but I think single-tape is really the easiest to read 16:51:02 Well, Brainfuck on three tapes was really easy. 16:51:37 Unlike that one tape thingy! http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/BRAINFUCK%20INTERPRETER%20ON%20A%20ONE.htm 16:51:54 I have some half-working version, but I should finish it someday 16:52:32 I really like DoubleFuck 16:54:30 woah, that's nifty 16:59:32 On three tapes, I didn't even need markers, apart for the bracket-markers! 16:59:43 It was just code-memory-counter 17:07:16 well, that's rather missing the point of a turing machine, eh? 17:08:12 But not of a LOVE MACHINE 17:31:27 -!- ehird has quit. 17:42:15 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:42:21 -!- Corun has joined. 17:42:44 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:54:46 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:58:01 Idea : Objective programming language. 17:58:12 I've got to figure out what command A = A could be. 18:12:38 -!- adu has joined. 18:15:39 hi 18:16:39 Hi. 18:18:43 I'm learning about factor 18:21:19 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:21:50 adu: ok... 18:22:35 oops wrong channel 18:22:37 :) 18:22:53 SimonRC: has oklopol talked to you about "Graphica"? 18:23:36 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:23:37 no 18:23:37 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 18:24:27 adu: sorry, i slept pretty much all day :) 18:24:56 when my friends start going to school, i lol at them and take 12 hours of sleep! 18:25:22 Are you sure it's because of that? 18:25:28 Maybe you have narcolepsia 18:25:38 :) 18:25:44 i think it's just laziness 18:26:11 was fully awake at 12.00 (now 20:29), and 17:00 at least 18:26:28 oh hehe me2 18:26:30 Lucky you! 18:26:41 but you know, "so... irc... or continue fucking chicks in my dreams" 18:26:46 oklopol: its snowing in DC, so I didn't goto work today 18:26:58 :) 18:27:01 wise choise! 18:27:25 oklopol: Go on IRC, and have cybersex! 18:27:28 * adu doesn't feel like that was very revealing, since my domain name probably has ".dc." in it somewhere... 18:27:49 i once had cybersex on irc, not as fun as you'd think xD 18:27:53 lol 18:27:55 phone sex is even worse 18:28:07 I never had cybersex in IRC, only in AIM ;) 18:28:30 that's more fun, since you get vid 18:28:42 Man, I regret starting this topic. 18:28:56 xD 18:29:35 oklopol: my favorite esolang! 18:29:41 x-D 18:30:01 oklopol: bah, you and your dreams 18:30:06 XP 18:30:12 my favorite os 18:30:23 ew 18:30:27 my favoirite schduling system 18:30:33 Haiku <- my favorite OS 18:30:39 or management style, orwhatever 18:30:49 ColorForth <- my favorite OS 18:30:51 :-P 18:30:54 lol 18:31:08 by Chuck "and application should be 2-4k" Moore 18:31:10 XP <- Really, I'm starting to regret switching to Linux 18:31:11 *an 18:31:32 It would be BeOS if it wasn't disolved when Palm bought it, but Haiku is the closest thing to BeOS that still exists, so thats why it is my favorite 18:31:33 -!- oklopol has set topic: The channel of offtopic nonsense.. 18:31:39 no 18:32:05 -!- SimonRC has set topic: The channel of esoteric programming and sometimes offtopic nonsense when we aren't discu. 18:32:05 adu: have you seen Emoticon, a similar lang 18:32:19 who said that? 18:32:20 -!- SimonRC has set topic: The channel of esoteric programming and sometimes offtopic nonsense when we aren't discussing esoteric programming. 18:32:23 anyone who regrets switching to Linux has something wrong in their head 18:32:32 there are disadvantages 18:32:39 e.g. sound drivers 18:32:46 yeah, like the fact windows worked better 18:32:49 or rather, sound "systems" 18:33:10 when has Windows every worked better than linux? 18:33:13 alsa and esd on one machine play together poorly 18:33:22 As far back as I remember linux has always worked better 18:33:30 adu: when I want to use excel 18:33:32 adu: my windows worked better than my linux. 18:33:57 but, i've tried only one linux installation, so not that fair. 18:34:05 which one? 18:34:11 ubuntu 18:34:18 ya! 18:34:21 good choice! 18:34:27 which version? 18:34:36 Flipper 18:34:43 but ther right word starting with F 18:34:47 *the 18:34:56 feisty fucker 18:36:39 adu: Problem is, nothing works 18:36:39 yesterday, my mouse started lagging suddenly, started taking longer and longer lag pauses, and finally stopped moving... only way to resolve was to press reset :D 18:37:19 Slereah: I agree, and Vista makes it even worse 18:37:32 did you try killing and restarting X? 18:37:36 Actually, I was refering to Linux. 18:37:55 I'm probably doing it wrong, but I can't get most things to work. 18:38:12 well, making things work is what commercial Linuxes are for 18:38:16 then, sometimes when i open vlc or a python program using pygame, the screen makes a loud clicking sounds and becomes a rainbow of screen fragments... basically the screen is divided into a thousand rectangles, which are scrambled around randomly 18:38:19 and the big organised ones 18:38:33 Does Kubuntu qualify as commercial? 18:38:42 sometimes the machine just reboots automatically 18:39:02 and then, sometimes, the screen just goes black and there's an "X" in the middle 18:39:29 SimonRC: by pressing ctrl+alt+backspace? how did you do that again 18:39:42 also, restarting X == restarting the computer 18:39:49 it closes programs 18:40:37 if you don't count the different kinds of rebooting, then there's of course the 5 minute lag pauses every now and then :D 18:41:01 xchat did that all the time, but that happens for other stuff too 18:41:36 then there was this log i was supposed to check to see why it reboots... there's never anything there :D 18:42:00 lolol 18:42:33 most of this may be my fault, but that's a bit beside the point, since i didn't have problems with XP. 18:42:53 but i might try another distro before changing back 18:43:32 oklopol: can you "cat | tee | grep" in XP? 18:43:55 what's "tee"? 18:44:19 no, you can't 18:44:57 "cat file1 | tee file2 | cmd3"takes file1, coppies it to file2, then passes it onto cmd3 18:45:25 its really nice for saving intermediate results in long pipe-commands 18:45:38 i see 18:46:16 like "sort Unsorted.txt | tee Sorted.txt | grep Keyword > SortedWithKeyword.txt" 18:46:30 i've never liked the idea of a sequential file; think oses should consider files an object. 18:46:42 indeed 18:46:51 there needs to less separation between models 18:47:37 yeah, that's my reason for not being that happy about linux' io features, i think it's still pretty primitive 18:47:47 I think all models should be part of a single model, where each model can be both restricted (take methods away), and exposed (add more methods) 18:47:54 (compared to okloOS!) 18:48:07 hmm 18:48:07 What is this OkloOS! 18:48:12 Can I pay money for it! 18:48:13 :D 18:48:18 my favorite examples are integers 18:48:38 Slereah: i'll first make oklotalk, then okloOS :) 18:48:59 What will the OSKLOSOS be like! 18:49:47 There are so many views and models of integers, there is the BoundedInteger model (which maps to a BitArray), then there is the BitArray model itself, then there is UnboundedInteger (which maps to a subset of the Reals, and BitArrays could be described by List (where lists have even more methods, like sorting)... and so on 18:49:52 oklotalk's stdlib doesn't easily allow you to consider files as streams anyway, so i was thinking why not just make an underlying os that let's you store any kind of object as a file 18:50:21 adu: what do you mean "part of a single model"? 18:50:25 I think if you could combine the models different systems have for integers and bitarrays, then the metamodel that allows you to do that would have so many applications 18:50:43 like, that there would be a separation between the theory and th practise 18:51:00 you'd have a declarative definition for an integer, and different implementations? 18:51:06 i'm not sure what you mean 18:51:15 oklopol: ZODB does that 18:51:39 oklopol: are you familiar with OOP? 18:51:48 yes 18:51:54 model == class 18:52:00 i see. 18:52:06 metamodel == metaclass 18:52:15 model == class == metaobject 18:52:26 yep 18:52:27 metamodel == metaclass == meta-meta-object 18:52:39 Heh. 18:52:45 I am pretty sure object-base FSes have been done already 18:52:57 what I find the most odd is that OMG defines 4 levels, then says "there are no others" 18:53:02 probably, that doesn't make me want to make my own. 18:53:06 oh 18:53:10 add a negation there 18:54:39 oklopol: ZODB is a library for Python in which all you have to do is subclass Persistant, and all you modifications to that object are stored in a DB 18:55:37 sounds awesome 18:57:08 what I mean by "part of a single model" is that (char *), GString, QString, KString, Haskell's [Char], Python's str(), and perl scalars, should all be subclasses of a more general String class in some language that supports each of these languages as a module. 18:58:15 I know that sounds Java/.Net-ish, but it is where we are headed anyways, since so many people are doing it 19:00:08 yeah, everyting should be an oklobject 19:00:21 (also called a "thing") 19:00:34 lol 19:00:43 Oh oklopol, you and your oklo-everything! 19:01:02 ;)) 19:01:35 but generally speaking, the tendancy is to start anew with a fresh taxonomy, and this is exactly why we have so many taxonomies 19:03:40 indeed. but conversions between types aren't exactly hard to do... 19:03:53 Universal Uniting Language 19:04:10 that specifies conversions between types 19:04:11 what I've been trying to do is find some way of "importing" current taxonomies under a single root, thus acheiving an ad-hoc version of a single model 19:04:11 anyways its something to think about :) 19:04:25 it is if you are converting between a MySQL database and an HTML form. 19:04:42 then its hard 19:05:27 indeed, luckily, i don't care about stuff like this, i just koed :) 19:05:41 what is "koed"? 19:07:05 n/m igtg 19:07:05 -!- adu has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:15:28 -!- Corun has joined. 19:15:29 hmm, that could be fun 19:16:41 wooot 19:17:43 If you tooke the best of all languages, you would have a language in which you could both (1)put IO operations anywhere without affecting the type of the function (as in C#) and (2)be able to prove that a function has no IO operations just be looking at its type 19:18:25 also, it would be fully strict and fully lazy 19:19:08 and it would have an OO system as powerful as CLISP's yet as simple as Smalltalk's 19:19:57 it would have the dynamic capabilities of ruby with the static provability of epigram 19:20:01 etc 19:20:04 see what I am getting at 19:20:07 ? 19:20:17 not having things is a feature too 19:20:31 which means some things cannot be combined sensibly 19:20:37 19:20:58 OTOH, many things can be sensibly combined 19:21:25 OH YOU MEAN HASKELL 19:21:30 no 19:21:51 Haskell doesn't have easily-used mixed-type lists 19:22:28 and there is no way to attempt to cast types to typeclasses 19:22:46 you can't ask "is this an instance of Ord?" 19:24:35 -!- ehird has joined. 19:24:48 hi 19:25:34 Welcome back little man 19:25:41 hi 19:25:50 -!- ehird has set topic: The channel of offtopic nonsense when we aren't discussing esoteric programming. 19:25:54 fixed the topic for y'all 19:26:02 ;) 19:26:11 -!- Slereah has set topic: What is the title of this topic?. 19:26:15 Fixd 19:26:31 Now, input it in IRP :o 19:28:56 IRPv4[L@< 19:28:59 updated syntax. 19:29:09 Lulwut? 19:47:15 wutlul 19:48:37 what's the Kooglomooh book that contains a description of the Andrey machine? 19:51:18 Since the one I found is $309, I'd better make sure it's the one I want! 20:03:28 TAOCP costs like 150 over here 20:03:30 first 3 volumes. 20:04:46 Most science books are horribly expensive. 20:05:07 Probably to make up the fact that no one wants them 20:05:25 I want The Art of Computer Programming! :( 20:05:45 (btw 150 = about $987 nowadays.) 20:05:59 DOWNLOAD IT 20:07:23 Man, evenAbebooks doesn't seem to have "On the definition of an algorithm" 20:13:36 -!- RedDak has joined. 20:25:06 SimonRC: not all my dreams are fun and joy though, just remembered another dream when in the basement: so, these two gay guys were having sex in my living room, and i told them to leave, because i had guests coming... they did start to leave, but i noticed the other one had dropped his glans, so i told him to take it with him... well, suddenly it disappeared, and i started looking for it, terrified that i'd not find it and a guest would 20:25:22 luckily, after i had looked for a while, he told me he'd eaten it 20:25:43 i hope you enjoyed that, i sure did! 20:25:48 Well, that was considerate of him. 20:26:15 Let's try to interpret that dream! 20:26:24 :) 20:26:43 Repressed homosexuality, and you went to sleep on an empty stomach. 20:27:13 sounds plausible. 20:27:46 The guests representing your peers. 20:27:55 oh, right 20:28:09 "Go secret gayness, and take your cocks with you!' 20:28:17 xD 20:28:43 lucky i don't believe in that stuff 20:29:14 Otherwise, you'd have to buy tighter pants! 20:29:48 indeed! 20:30:23 also, the aids is a minus 20:30:48 Which is why you shouldn't catch is! 20:30:49 t* 20:31:31 can you be gay without aids?! :ooo this turned my world upside down!! 20:31:39 * oklopol goes looking at personals 20:32:37 This is my story, all about how 20:32:48 My life got twisted turned upside down 20:33:06 And I'd like to take a minute just sit right there 20:33:10 I'll tell you how I became the prince of a town called Bel-Air 20:34:05 my words exactly 20:34:41 now to implement a red-black tree and watch it wimble and womble! 20:40:26 i really need to pick a language & stick with it 20:40:58 Pick a really horrible one that's neither practical or interesting. 20:41:39 i can has fermentation! 20:43:43 ??? 20:44:42 bsmntbombdood: poisoning yourself with alcohol agin? 20:44:44 *again 20:44:47 yep 20:44:51 * a gin 20:44:55 i'm gonna distill it this time 20:45:07 should have about a gallon of vodka in 2 or so weeks 20:46:11 read http://www.vjn.fi/index.php?a=52 and http://www.vjn.fi/index.php?a=54 for a touching story about the perils of alcohol 20:47:27 i'll have to brush up on my finnish first 20:48:01 it's not in finnish 20:48:16 didn't you read the topic :) 20:48:28 well it's certainly not english 20:49:02 there exists also a third language 20:49:42 some fucking nordic shit 20:49:56 :P 20:50:19 "Fuke tu! Ja no ee i last notte sleepet!" - "Fuck you! Yeah, last time i didn't sleep" 20:50:37 yep. 20:50:46 most of it is simplified english 20:50:57 although it has some quite different structures as well 20:51:09 what is it? 20:51:18 a language my friend made 20:51:50 http://www.vjn.fi/s/$anasto.txt 20:51:55 finnish - zx3 though 20:52:04 i always forget that 20:52:08 oklopol: that'll be very helpful to bsmntbombdood 20:52:34 how could i remember what language that's in :D 20:53:15 assumed it was english-zx3 20:55:21 too bad i don't have some oak barrels 20:55:35 then i would make bourbon 20:55:37 or maybe rum 20:56:49 perhaps you could open an alcohol store 20:57:47 i'm thinking of it 20:57:53 not a store, but a distillery 20:58:35 yeah, even better 20:59:05 * SimonRC goes. 21:05:24 oklopol: come to my distillery and i'll hire you 21:05:41 sounds like a hard job! :D 21:07:31 i'll have to give it a bitta thought 21:16:52 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 21:17:02 -!- helios24 has quit ("Leaving"). 21:35:56 American Mathematical Society Translations: Series 2, Volume 29: 12 PAPERS ON LOGIC AND DIFFERENTIAL EQUATIONS 21:36:01 Be that the right book? 21:36:13 I'm having a hard time finding a description of it 21:50:49 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:57:03 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:57:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Client Quit). 21:58:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:11:53 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:15:40 CHALLENGE 22:15:59 make a precedentless infix syntax that does not require parens or special markers to disambiguate ANY expression 22:16:06 you merely have to rearrange the equation 22:16:38 not possible 22:17:12 finefix was my attempt at that 22:17:22 but ofc you can't have it fully infix 22:17:28 without adding dummy values 22:17:32 well yeah, of course the rules would be crazy 22:17:45 2+2+3 doesn't even have to do what you expect :P 22:17:49 it's easy to prove impossible. 22:17:50 just something that is "operand operator operand" 22:18:01 doesn't have to look like any regular infix 22:18:10 then finefix, i guess. 22:18:32 finefix requires operator duplication 22:18:34 which is not "operand operator operand" 22:18:36 uses postfix-like semantics for situations where you need other than left-to-right precedence 22:18:50 umm, as i said, that's trivial to prove impossible. 22:19:32 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:19:40 :D 22:19:49 i love assuming people leaving means "fuck you" 22:19:57 although it never does 22:20:39 -!- ehird` has joined. 22:28:34 automake requires ncurses *why*? 22:28:47 -!- GregorR has joined. 22:32:28 m 22:32:29 hmm 22:32:35 i ought to make my magical-golf-site 22:32:53 it'd be like that golf site: shows source length, checks the output by running it in a sandbox, etc 22:32:58 but: other people could add challenges 22:33:02 and the source would be viewable 22:33:12 challenge #1: compact the source code of the site itself 22:33:12 :-) 22:39:51 ... nobody likes that idea :( 22:41:05 sorry, thinking about other things 22:46:03 ehird`: fun idea 22:46:20 oklopol: it exists but is down right now, and iti sn't as cool 22:46:25 you cant' add challenges or view the source 22:46:26 s 22:46:51 hmm? 22:47:01 i meant the source thing 22:47:08 or, was that there, or your idea? 22:47:20 i know there are a lot of pages like that 22:55:22 ah 22:55:23 ok 22:55:25 but yeah 22:55:29 challenge #1 would be cool 22:55:38 it would run a huge unit test suite on it, 22:55:45 and check the generated html, when parsed, is equivilent 22:55:53 if so: update the site to run on it immediately 22:55:59 ok maybe without the update the site immediately part :P 22:56:14 :) 22:56:32 might be interesting to have a site that takes a year to generate. 22:56:51 hehe 22:57:18 -!- timotiis has quit ("leaving"). 23:01:09 oklopol: of course i'd have to decide what language to write the site in 23:01:13 and i'm between languages right now 23:01:28 what are you between? 23:02:02 many 23:05:23 oklopol: just can't decide which i like most for practical things :) 23:08:53 oklopol: any suggestions? 23:09:16 no realistic ones. 23:09:38 i can suggest making AsmScript, and using that 23:10:10 heh 23:10:14 i wsa looking for realistic ones 23:10:27 it has everything a web programmer needs, as easily memorizable short mnemonics, while being exTREMEly efficient! 23:10:40 yeah, well, that's not my specialty. 23:11:01 i'd use php :) 23:12:04 oklopol: not just web stuff 23:12:11 i just mean: generic, practical stuff 23:12:31 hacks generally on the smaller side but i don't want it to die in practicality if something i write grows. 23:12:52 oklopol: where's that oklotalk operator precedence thing again? 23:13:07 oklotalkspec in www.vjn.fi/mb 23:13:17 if you can figure the interface out :) 23:14:36 yes: the interface is what i was really looking for 23:14:38 it says written in python iirc 23:14:45 did you just use the cgi module? :P 23:14:50 hmm it doesn't say that 23:14:53 you must have said that 23:19:41 oklopol: did you? 23:20:15 oklopol: "Loading very unacomplised. Super am sory :(" 23:20:18 truly great english 23:29:22 Everyone's dead! 23:35:13 lalalala 23:36:47 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:37:20 even the computeres 23:38:15 ferment ferment ferment 23:39:45 dead dead dead 23:46:27 i wonder 23:46:33 is there a brainfuck compiler that does constant folding? 23:46:43 of course. 23:47:57 i mean non-trivial 23:47:59 and whoa lament 23:48:03 you're not dead 23:48:24 (also: yikes, Perl parsing is almost *certainly* turing-complete...) 23:48:35 Though successful in creating a Perl parser for document-related purposes, the PPI project determined that parsing Perl code as a document (retaining its integrity) and as executable code simultaneously was, in fact, not possible. Specifically the author claimed that, "parsing Perl suffers from the 'Halting Problem.'" 23:53:05 lament hasn't been here for a long time 23:55:02 i live here, man 23:55:23 bsmntbombdood: exactly 23:55:40 i've only seen you about 3-5 times actually lament 23:55:42 but not for aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaages 23:56:22 it's because i live in a city deep under the sea 23:56:39 once every thousand years or so, the city rises to the surface and wireless starts working 23:59:23 I thought you said you lived here