←2007-12-09 2007-12-10 2007-12-11→ ↑2007 ↑all
00:12:05 <bsmntbombdood> maybe i'll ski to school tommorow
00:14:13 <oklopol> :<
00:14:16 <oklopol> we have rain here...
00:15:18 * pikhq reboots for kernel
00:16:32 <oerjan> in Trondheim we have a snow, rain, ice, hip bone fracture cycle :/
00:17:00 <oerjan> which currently is firmly in the ice stage
00:18:40 <oklopol> hip bone?
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00:20:22 <ehird`> hmm, the dialect of lisp in my head is pretty esoteric
00:20:25 <oerjan> hip or leg, i guess
00:20:49 <ehird`> e.g. for one thing (although this isn't THAT esoteric), you can marshal continuations to a bytestring
00:22:51 <oerjan> fun fact: if you put gravel on ice to make it safe to walk, and it then snows/rains a bit, the gravel gets embedded in the ice so it only _looks_ safe.
00:23:59 <ehird`> awesome
00:24:26 <oklopol> i don't fall on ice, ice falls under me
00:24:55 <oklopol> i guess that makes me chuck norris or something
00:25:18 <oerjan> depends. do you cry?
00:25:19 <DocWilco> ice rises up to smack you
00:27:31 <ehird`> hmm, i don't think my formatting lang is crazy enough
00:27:42 <ehird`> it's more like printf than cl's format :-)
00:27:56 <oerjan> is it TC yet?
00:29:53 <ehird`> no :-(
00:30:11 <ehird`> it does have a loop construct, though!
00:30:46 <ehird`> not sure about the syntax, but i'm thinking ^l{element,generator,...}
00:31:24 <ehird`> ^l{x,(cdr some-list),^?{(car x)}
00:31:27 <ehird`> that's crazy
00:31:34 <oklopol> that's lisp for ya
00:31:46 <ehird`> that could barely be called lisp :-)
00:32:00 <ehird`> methinks i should replace the formatting lang with some way of embedding lisp
00:32:34 <ehird`> like, ~"Hello, #\thing!"
00:32:42 <ehird`> ~"Hello, #\(car thing)!"
00:33:07 <ehird`> ~"Hello, \#\! I typed that in as: \\\#\."
00:33:18 <ehird`> oklopol: oerjan: that seems a bit too sane, doesn't it? :-)
00:34:03 <oklopol> hmm
00:34:34 <oklopol> quite nice
00:34:41 <oklopol> so REMOVE IT
00:34:48 <ehird`> you could do ~expr too to apply it on a string
00:35:08 <oklopol> i'm so tired i think i'll write a song about it
00:35:15 <ehird`> templating language = (in <context-you-want-to-run-the-template-in> ~templ) :P
00:37:18 <ehird`> actually, maybe the root of my problem is: this kind of fucking sucks
00:37:30 <ehird`> instead: concat operator ~
00:37:39 <ehird`> (~ "Hello, " thing "!")
00:37:46 <ehird`> (~ "Hello, " (car thing) "!")
00:37:58 <ehird`> (~ "Hello, #\! I typed that in as, er.... #\.")
00:40:08 <ehird`> Which will basically be (defproc (~ . args) (apply append (map ->string args)))
00:42:35 <ehird`> oklopol: it's not very esoteric now is it
00:43:33 <oklopol> indeed not
00:43:51 <oklopol> (apply append (...))?
00:43:56 <oklopol> why not append
00:44:16 <oklopol> actually not sure what apply is, possibly.
00:44:46 <oklopol> i guess it might be reduce or something
00:45:14 <ehird`> (apply x '(1 2 3)) -> (x 1 2 3)
00:45:25 <oklopol> :O
00:45:32 <oklopol> i see.
00:45:37 <ehird`> (defproc (~ . args) ...) ; args is a list, but of course append takes many arguments and shoves them together, so we need to use apply
00:45:45 <ehird`> to explain
00:45:49 <ehird`> the translation of ~ to python is
00:46:08 <ehird`> define tilde(*args): append(*map(to_string, args))
00:46:15 <ehird`> err, s/define/def and add a return
00:46:16 <ehird`> but yeah
00:46:30 <oklopol> oerjan: i often cry because of my malfunctioning eyes, never because i'm sad; is that a problem regarding chuck'ness?
00:47:19 <ehird`> oklopol: Screen brightness. Turn it down. :P
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00:48:00 <oklopol> append?
00:48:07 <oklopol> i didn't know python had that as a function
00:48:17 <oklopol> neither does my python interp :\
00:48:26 <ehird`> it doesn't
00:48:29 <ehird`> it was a direct translation
00:48:29 <oklopol> oh
00:48:33 <ehird`> the idea is to figure out what apply does
00:48:50 <ehird`> here's a definition of apply in python
00:48:57 <ehird`> def apply(func, args): return func(*args)
00:48:59 <ehird`> you see?
00:50:34 <oklopol> oh
00:50:37 <oklopol> right.
00:51:49 <ehird`> :-)
00:52:39 <oklopol> need... sleep
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00:55:45 <oerjan> oklopol: i am not sure. check the cancer-curing properties.
00:56:25 <oklopol> !check cancer curing properties
00:56:52 <oklopol> cccp
00:57:02 <oerjan> oh dear
00:57:20 <oklopol> you filthy communist or something
00:57:54 <oerjan> i am just thinking that the collapse of the soviet union lost us the cure for cancer
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00:58:06 <oklopol> the screen brightness can't really be an issue, since i've had multiple screens, and they hurt with any screen
00:58:46 <oklopol> also, it's weird how i think of an answer right away, but for some reason answer much later, even if the guy has already gone
00:59:03 <bsmntbombdood> fractured hip
00:59:46 <oerjan> we are approaching a black hole, strange time dilation observed
01:00:10 <bsmntbombdood> i thought only old people fractured their hips
01:00:41 <oerjan> mostly so i guess
01:01:06 <oklopol> young people don't have hips, hips are something you get with menopause
01:01:26 <oerjan> apparently scandinavia also has the world's highest incidence of osteoporosis, or something
01:01:56 <oklopol> that's mainly because the polar bears eat the cows.
01:02:33 <oerjan> i am not sure, because i also think we have some of the highest milk intake
01:03:28 <oerjan> i even vaguely recall someone suggesting milk might actually _hurt_ bone calcium, in some perverse way
01:03:51 <oerjan> now that was probably dubious even when i read/heard it
01:05:57 <pikhq> I'd suspect genetic influence.
01:06:00 <oklopol> you can scientifically prove anything
01:06:36 <pikhq> oklopol: Actually, you can't scientifically prove anything: science cannot prove, only guess, observe, and disprove.
01:06:39 <bsmntbombdood> oerjan is old enough to be my dad
01:07:17 <oklopol> i'm old enough to be my own dad
01:07:20 <pikhq> oerjan can't be *that* old.
01:07:52 <pikhq> Just because he's got a Ph.D. doesn't make him quite that old. ;)
01:08:03 <oklopol> oerjan is 32
01:08:28 <oerjan> why thank you.
01:08:35 <bsmntbombdood> hmm nevermind then
01:08:36 <oklopol> some people ask, i give incorrect information and wait for things to happen
01:08:37 <oerjan> but actually, 37.
01:08:38 <oklopol> oh, right
01:08:41 <bsmntbombdood> he would have to be a very young dad
01:08:45 <oklopol> age doesn't work that way.
01:08:46 <bsmntbombdood> oh, that's more like it
01:08:51 <pikhq> So, he's moderately close to how old my mom is.
01:09:18 <oklopol> have i told the story of how i almost became a dad when i was 15
01:09:45 <bsmntbombdood> that oklopol
01:09:53 <oklopol> i guess i just told it
01:09:56 <bsmntbombdood> didn't your mommy teach you to use protection?
01:10:01 <oklopol> :D
01:10:12 <oklopol> i don't like condoms
01:10:43 <oklopol> but let's try to keep the conversation non-genitaley for once?
01:11:03 <oklopol> conversations should only be about sex and programming
01:11:19 <oerjan> software exchange ftw
01:11:32 * pikhq programs sex
01:11:50 <oklopol> uhh small deja vu
01:12:59 <bsmntbombdood> sexbot passes turing-test!
01:14:48 <oklopol> yep, no surprise
01:15:09 <oklopol> wonder if i should read one chapter more, watch an fg or go to sleep
01:15:27 <pikhq> In that order.
01:16:01 <oklopol> well, who am i to say no
01:16:07 * oklopol reads
01:16:28 <oklopol> only 42 pages
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01:16:56 <bsmntbombdood> what are you reading?
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01:26:45 <oklopol> i think i'm reading the art of assembly language
01:27:05 <oerjan> DAMN, r.e.s. is dense.
01:27:21 <oerjan> *cough*
01:28:04 <oklopol> you mean bob wyatt?
01:28:11 <oklopol> answers.com never fails
01:28:37 <oerjan> now, i mean the one on our wiki.
01:28:49 <oerjan> *no
01:30:31 <oklopol> ah, the nothing
01:30:42 <oklopol> i disagree, i think nothingness is far from dense
01:31:16 <oerjan> DAMN, oklopol is dense. on purpose, even.
01:31:45 <oklopol> :D
01:32:28 <pikhq> r.e.s.?
01:32:43 <oklopol> well, yes, that's what i meant with "bob wyatt"
01:32:45 <oerjan> we're having an argument. :)
01:32:54 <oklopol> oh, right
01:33:05 <oklopol> oerjan: shut up you disoriented fool!
01:33:25 <pikhq> I see.
01:33:37 * oklopol still doesn't
01:34:06 <oerjan> oklopol: Talk:Brainhype
01:34:26 <pikhq> I looked at the recent changes, saw a *lot* of stuff from R.e.s
01:35:04 <pikhq> It's computable because you could use an oracle to interpret it? WTF?
01:35:14 <pikhq> I see he doesn't know what "computable" means.
01:36:36 <oklopol> not sure what's hard to exist in gravity
01:37:09 <oklopol> also, why does he mention gravity if he hasn't bothered to read the 50 lines of it on the wiki :P
01:37:25 <oklopol> let's all mock him now, yes?
01:37:30 <oklopol> why ain't i reading...
01:41:46 <pikhq> Although I love how Brainhype seems to profess to claim to solve the halting problem for Brainhype.
01:58:18 <oklopol> argh
01:58:20 <oklopol> can't read
01:58:22 <oklopol> must
01:58:24 <oklopol> sleep ->
01:58:27 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Springs_church_shooting
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02:14:59 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: again, terrible performance
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09:48:27 <oklopol> lol... someone tell me a good way to reverse a list in bf :D
09:48:33 <oklopol> this is fucking huge :\
09:48:34 <oklopol> [<-[+<<-]+<[[->+<]+[>[->>+<<]>]>[->>+<<]>[>[->>+<<]>]>[-<+>]<-[<<]<]<]>>>[>>]<<[->>+<<]>>
09:49:08 <oklopol> pebble to the rescue?
09:50:03 <dbc> Let me see.
09:51:14 <oklopol> i can give you the version vwith comments
09:51:21 <oklopol> unless you wanna decipher yourself
09:51:38 <oklopol> well, not really comments, just the same thing in pseudocode
09:51:56 <oklopol> wellll, almost the same
09:53:05 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p655362262.txt the notation is in no way consistent, but the examples may show what it does, unless you already found out
09:53:28 <oklopol> x's are the list to reverse, it can't contain zeroes
09:54:00 <dbc> Thanks.
09:54:03 <oklopol> it's just i'm pretty sure there's a "oneliner" for that
09:55:32 <oklopol> curr-=n sometimes means to move the pointer, sometimes to change the value xD
09:56:03 <dbc> There was a contest a while ago to reverse a zero-terminated byte string. Judged on prog length * mem use * commands executed, I think, but the shortest was Bertram Felgenhauer's here >[[[>]>+<<[<]>-]>[[<+>-]>]<<]>>>[[<<+>>-]>]<<<<[<]
09:56:19 <oklopol> oh
09:56:25 <oklopol> then i consider mine well enough
09:56:26 <dbc> Although I'm thinking with all the known 1s it must be possible to do better.
09:56:40 <oklopol> they're not known
09:56:43 <oklopol> they are added
09:56:49 <oklopol> x's are the list
09:56:57 <oklopol> 1's are to help me reverse it...
09:57:02 <dbc> I mean, after they're added, then they're known. I.e. by the time the reverse happens those bytes are known to be 1.
09:57:10 <oklopol> ah, well yeah
09:58:42 <oklopol> i was fearing you could do that somehow just as simply as reversed catting
09:59:01 <oklopol> not that i have any idea what that code does.
10:00:14 <oklopol> heh, you know you haven't done brainfuck for a while when you consider reversing a string a trivial task :D
10:00:32 <oklopol> or, you have done it a lot.
10:00:34 <oklopol> either way...
10:02:40 <oklopol> hmm, actually
10:02:44 <oklopol> i'm a fucking idiot.
10:02:58 <dbc> Yeah? You don't need to reverse it at all?
10:03:17 <oklopol> i could easily make mine a lot faster + shorter
10:03:37 <oklopol> i just realized i can actually move bytes longer distances than a constant one
10:03:42 <oklopol> with [>>] loops
10:03:46 <dbc> Right.
10:03:53 <oklopol> [+[>>]-[<<]]
10:03:55 <oklopol> or something
10:04:19 <oklopol> didn't occur to me, loooong time since i last did brainfuck, and i'm fairly sure i was a steenking noob back then
10:04:31 <dbc> Ah.
10:04:44 <oklopol> and, well
10:04:49 <oklopol> not sure whether i need to reverse
10:04:56 <oklopol> i need input in reverse
10:05:09 <oklopol> but... i have right-extended memory
10:05:26 <oklopol> if i don't reverse it, i'll get complications later
10:07:22 <dbc> Might shift the whole thing right with each input byte. Probably not actually any slower.
10:07:52 <dbc> >,[[>]<[[>+<-]<]>,] or something.
10:08:42 <oklopol> it shifts
10:08:47 <oklopol> i mean, mine
10:08:53 <oklopol> ooooh
10:09:10 <oklopol> sorry, i forgot the context completely there :P
10:09:45 <oklopol> so obvious, should've thought of that
10:10:09 <oklopol> it's just it's slow to change ordo intuition when switching between languages
10:10:22 <dbc> Or if you wanted the ones for something other than reversing, more like >,[[>]<[[>>+<<-]<]>>+<,] I think.
10:10:57 <oklopol> i see you have the skill.
10:11:25 <dbc> Nah, I just barely switch. I rarely write anything except in C or brainfuck.
10:13:04 <oklopol> what more could a programmer possibly need
10:13:11 <dbc> :)
10:15:04 <oklopol> after trying python, i've become so lazy it was real hard for me to actually get started on my bf project... it's scary when there's actually a possibility there's an error in my code!
10:15:15 <oklopol> well, not trying, using for a few years
10:15:33 <oklopol> or one... i can't assess time really
10:15:56 <oklopol> hmm
10:15:58 <oklopol> "assess"
10:16:09 <oklopol> well, close enough
10:18:03 <dbc> What's the project, just out of curiosity?
10:18:34 <oklopol> i actually did have an error there, wrote [>-<+]-[<<] when should've had >[-<+>]<-[<<]
10:18:38 <oklopol> oh
10:19:11 <oklopol> thought i'd try making a brainfuck interpreter for unlambda, although quickly changed it to making ski in brainfuck for unknown reasons ;)
10:19:31 <oklopol> in bf code, i'm currently at getting input :D
10:19:40 <oklopol> although, i've had about an hour of coding sofar
10:19:41 <dbc> :)
10:20:07 <oklopol> i have the algo a bit further on paper, shouldn't be hard to make, but fucking tedious
10:20:40 <dbc> Right.
10:21:01 <oklopol> pikhq: have you thought about making something a bit more high-level than pebble, where you could do stuff like [set a [+ [* 8 c] b]]
10:21:29 <oklopol> "right" as in "shuuuure...."? :P
10:21:54 <dbc> "Right" as in "Yeah, tedious.".
10:23:02 <dbc> And probably really hard to make concise and graceful.
10:23:15 <oklopol> i've tried making ski once in an imperative language, it was the ti-89 basic on my calculator, the implementation as far as i got it was quite interesting, for example, used pictures for a stack :P
10:24:06 <oklopol> yeah, for the actual computation part it'd be nice to get something a bit prettier than a reversing algo that leaves random shit behind :P
10:24:14 <oklopol> (hope you didn't run my reverser...)
10:24:27 <dbc> I didn't.
10:24:53 <oklopol> it leaves behind ones in place of the original values, plus a one at the beginning
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15:43:04 <Slereah> Yay!
15:43:14 <Slereah> I succeeded with that first Turing machine program on mine!
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16:08:37 <ehird`> hmm
16:08:43 <ehird`> someone rate the esotericness of this idea:
16:09:04 <ehird`> A Scheme implementation that converts to CPS. (Wait, but that isn't esoteric? Chicken does that.) Ah yes -- but it's an interpreter!
16:25:04 <ehird`> ok apparently that doesn't suprise people
16:30:05 <Slereah> Either that or noone's reading.
16:32:04 <ehird`> Slereah: you are, evidently :\-)
16:32:41 <Slereah> Yes, but barely understand your words!
16:40:11 <ehird`> hehe
16:40:17 <ehird`> cps=continuation-passing-style
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16:56:05 <ehird`> oklopol: it's also written in python, so it will be 10x more crazy than your impl
17:23:56 <Slereah> Rargh.
17:24:40 <Slereah> I can't get some program working, and I don't know if it's because of my interpreter or if I entered it wrong.
17:24:51 <Slereah> I need to find an easier way of typing it in.
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17:29:12 <ehird`> what lang?
17:30:06 <Slereah> I wrote a Turing machine in Python.
17:30:21 <Slereah> And I'm trying to type in this : http://www.abelard.org/turpap2/tp2-ie.asp#section-3
17:30:29 <Slereah> The "001011011101111011111" one.
17:31:06 <Slereah> Since my program asks for every step, it is frustrating to type it.
17:31:20 <ehird`> a 2d program then
17:31:24 <Slereah> Hm?
17:31:28 <ehird`> also: make it read from the file
17:31:30 <ehird`> a file
17:31:55 <Slereah> Well, right now, I'll be happy if I can just copypasta the whole Turing program.
17:32:04 <ehird`> Well, evidently you can't
17:32:20 <Slereah> Well, it can't be bigger than a hundred chars.
17:32:40 <Slereah> If I find a way for the program to read it in one go.
17:33:28 <ehird`> what is this interp written in
17:33:36 <Slereah> Python.
17:34:28 <Slereah> So far, it's that : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/turing.py
17:34:54 <ehird`> Slereah: can i suggest formatting your code? :-)
17:35:08 <Slereah> Can I suggest defining the word "formatting"?
17:35:22 <Slereah> If it means "Clean that thing up", it would be a nice idea.
17:38:22 <ehird`> for a start, add more spaces around binary operators and 'print'
17:38:28 <ehird`> remove the spaces around your function calls
17:38:35 <ehird`> and indent to 4 spaces (python standard)
17:38:35 <ehird`> :-)
17:38:46 <Slereah> Oh.
17:38:56 <Slereah> I don't really pay attention to that.
17:39:12 <ehird`> others who may want to read your code do!
17:39:16 <ehird`> but anyway
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17:39:32 <ehird`> why not just read the stuff from a file
17:39:36 <ehird`> instead of your raw_inputs
17:39:57 <Slereah> The main reason is that so far, I haven't tried file input in Python.
17:40:08 <Slereah> And I had a bad experience with it in C.
17:40:28 <ehird`> open(filename).read() -> string
17:40:35 <ehird`> gives the whole file.
17:40:49 <ehird`> for better closing:
17:40:54 <ehird`> try:
17:41:00 <ehird`> f = open(filename)
17:41:04 <ehird`> text = f.read()
17:41:06 <ehird`> finally:
17:41:08 <ehird`> f.close()
17:41:10 <Slereah> Well, if I first make the raw_input thingy, I can see how it works and then change the source of the string from raw_input to the file.
17:41:17 <ehird`> but you're having problems.
17:41:19 <ehird`> so just do that.
17:41:20 <ehird`> QED.
17:41:39 <Slereah> Well, the problem is just typing all the instructions everytime.
17:41:56 <Slereah> Since I have to confirm everystep, I can't just copypasta it.
17:42:51 <ehird`> so remove the confirm
17:43:07 <Slereah> That's what I'm doing.
17:43:50 <Slereah> But I can't just write one line to do that, as far as I know.
17:45:44 <oerjan> well if you didn't make a function for confirmation in the first place...
17:46:09 <oerjan> if you did, replacing it with a dummy one should be simple
17:46:35 <Slereah> Well, as you can see, there's a whole lot of raw_input.
17:47:29 <oerjan> actually i cannot since i didn't note the url
17:47:36 <Slereah> Oh.
17:48:00 <oerjan> snatching from logs
17:49:18 <oerjan> well, global search and replace should fix that
17:49:34 <oerjan> i.e. rename it to your own function.
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19:50:38 <Slereah-> Aaaargh
19:50:38 <Slereah-> Too much Slereah.
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19:51:25 <Slereah> I think I did it.
19:51:40 <Slereah> It probably won't go down as the cleanest code in history, but it seems to work.
19:58:48 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/
19:58:54 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Hello%20world!.txt means I
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20:09:51 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Hello%20world%202.txt
20:10:05 <Slereah> Thar.
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20:23:25 <oerjan> R.I.P., i say
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20:35:42 <bsmntbombdood> feck
20:37:11 <ehird`> fuck
20:38:50 <bsmntbombdood> "It was like passing through checkpoints," he said. "But I had Wikipedia and a few other sites open, so it was not so difficult really."
20:38:54 <bsmntbombdood> http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=3973925
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20:56:43 <oerjan> that reminds me of an old comedy series here in norway (which i think actually was translated from britain)
20:57:18 <oerjan> in which the main character called Nikita Krushchev
20:57:29 <GregorR> Hahahah
20:57:31 <GregorR> That = awesome
20:57:52 <oerjan> oh wait, it was Breshnev
20:58:16 <oerjan> i think
21:00:49 <bsmntbombdood> --EDITOR QUIZ TIME--
21:00:53 <bsmntbombdood> what editor do you use?
21:02:06 <oerjan> vim
21:05:14 <GregorR> cat
21:05:43 <oklopol> dog
21:05:54 <ehird`> various things
21:06:01 <oklopol> (bet cha didn't see that coming xD)
21:06:05 <ehird`> i toy with writing my own often
21:06:48 * oerjan calculates what oklopol owes him
21:07:23 <oerjan> you are _so_ predictable
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22:18:51 <lament> i use an editor, yes.
22:19:30 <bsmntbombdood> groundbreaking, this one
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