< 1196727134 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1196727138 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.160 JOIN :#esoteric < 1196728554 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1196735404 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1196735432 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.160 JOIN :#esoteric < 1196736311 0 :cmeme!n=cmeme@boa.b9.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1196737907 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1196737928 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, oerjan. < 1196737939 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION enjoys nomic recursion < 1196737949 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :morn morn < 1196737952 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh oh < 1196737952 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan < 1196737971 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my idea with converting game of life into minesweeper and solving it worked btw < 1196737985 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but someone wrote a program that's hundreds of times faster just by using search and replace on the input < 1196738004 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1196738012 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I have to learn CLP! < 1196738015 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it was good < 1196738028 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats nomic recursion? < 1196738051 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a game of nomic inside a game of nomic < 1196738063 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More than just that. < 1196738083 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agora's Child is a member of Agora. . . I'm trying to make it so that Agora is a member of Agora's Child. < 1196738090 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ujh < 1196738098 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell is nomic o_o < 1196738115 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION complains about long FAQs < 1196738115 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomic < 1196738156 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh geez < 1196738160 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my childhood was wasted < 1196738168 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I knew about this .. things would have been better < 1196738234 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_O < 1196738289 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, I am insane. < 1196738335 0 :Paro!n=dfdfdfdf@d149-67-202-245.col.wideopenwest.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1196738386 0 :Paro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please say "Hello, World!" < 1196738425 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hei verden! < 1196738442 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ぜんぜん! < 1196738448 0 :Paro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please say "Hello, World!" in English < 1196738454 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never! < 1196738461 0 :Paro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O.O < 1196738479 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please say "Hello, world!" in Japanese! < 1196738492 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was awesome you two < 1196738509 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION bows < 1196738513 0 :Paro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oٟ < 1196738519 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wrong. < 1196738532 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :もしもし、世界。 < 1196738533 0 :Paro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is filled with sorrow. < 1196738775 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smil til verden og verden smiler til deg < 1196738800 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf +[.+] < 1196738804 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1196738814 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1196738818 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1196738821 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh crap.. < 1196738836 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1196738839 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EgoBot: !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~€‚ƒ„…†‡ˆ‰Š‹ŒŽ‘’“”•–—˜™š›œžŸ ¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬ ®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞßàáâãäåæçèéêëìíîïðñòóôõö÷øùúûüýþÿ < 1196738841 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in PM < 1196738842 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1196738856 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1196739329 0 :RodgerTheGreat!n=Rodger@wads-5-232-170.resnet.mtu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1196739907 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-236-169-229.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1196740117 0 :Paro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1196746995 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip24-255-58-134.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1196747379 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. Don't push the red button!" < 1196747794 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Coffee" < 1196749863 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1196751248 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-236-169-229.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1196753361 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. He who laughs last, thinks slowest" < 1196754414 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1196755199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1196755200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1196757871 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any like < 1196757877 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sub-turing language design channel ? < 1196757878 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1196758029 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there aren't enough good subturing languages! < 1196761376 0 :jix!n=jix@195.37.106.60 JOIN :#esoteric < 1196762298 0 :JontteG!n=joonas@dsl-hkibras1-ff0ac300-216.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1196762616 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's easy to make one. You just put a rigid and moderately low storage limit on any Turing-complete language. Yawn. < 1196762624 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1196762627 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not like that < 1196762654 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things like regex, SQL, The Haskell Type System < 1196762671 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I really don't know that many interesting subturing languages) < 1196762685 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HTML, too. < 1196762689 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1196762697 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all capable of solving some interesting problems < 1196762700 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Context-sensitive grammars. < 1196762947 0 :JontteG!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1196763216 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok wow < 1196763221 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to find something to do with Context-sensitive grammars < 1196763235 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I haven't really much intuition about what they're capable of at all < 1196764102 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"CommandQ" < 1196765078 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-78-29.w83-203.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1196765108 0 :Jontte!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1196765867 0 :Jontte!n=joonas@dsl-hkibras1-ff0ac300-216.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1196766364 0 :Jontte!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1196766452 0 :Jontte!n=joonas@dsl-hkibras1-ff0ac300-216.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1196766960 0 :Jontte!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1196773447 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-085-016-233-218.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1196773488 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1196773496 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-085-016-233-218.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1196773822 0 :Jontte!n=joonas@dsl-hkibras1-ff0ac300-216.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1196777149 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1196777284 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1196777835 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any small sets of these "subturing" languages faxathisia was speaking of that are together TC? < 1196778129 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know about those he mentioned < 1196778157 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you take a turing-complete language and split it up into small pieces that are each not TC... < 1196778174 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like just K and just S from combinatory logic... < 1196778195 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1196778215 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what we call "vacuously true" < 1196778216 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or split away [] from brainfuck... < 1196778232 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was primarily wondering about existing languages < 1196778253 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :creating a language for the purpose of this idea doesn't really accomplish much < 1196778329 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there are undecidable type systems for one thing < 1196778455 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently you cannot combine haskell-like type systems with subtyping without making the result undecidable, which i think usually is shown by finding TC sub-problems < 1196778688 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1196778799 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually ocaml manages somewhat, i think you may need so-called higher rank polymorphism as well < 1196779019 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i just thought of one thing: while all regex languages are context-free, regex languages are closed under complement but not context-free ones < 1196779090 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you combine the features, the result is TC < 1196779151 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as mentioned here a while ago, it is undecidable whether a CF language includes _all_ strings of the alphabet) < 1196779554 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1196780213 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sql is subturing? < 1196780302 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no way of looping, they say < 1196782361 0 :faxathisia!n=more@137.195.250.2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1196783292 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1196783312 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.160 JOIN :#esoteric < 1196785260 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would hope that SQL is intentionally sub-TC < 1196785297 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the impression i got < 1196785321 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find it very similar to haskell < 1196785326 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe I'm just imagining it? < 1196785333 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Geeze, raggin' on Haskell. < 1196785341 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no... < 1196785347 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought SQL is really nice to use < 1196785349 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a good language < 1196785370 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Geeze, raggin' on logic and reason. < 1196785390 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really though, SQL is fine for its purpose :P < 1196785396 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I only wrote square root and game of life yet < 1196785404 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to do a raytracer but I didn't bother yet < 1196785411 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And unlike many other special purpose languages, it hasn't escaped its niche to become a crapsy general purpose language. < 1196785462 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want more subturing languages to try :( < 1196785480 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, are you saying you wrote the game of life in SQL? >_O < 1196785494 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume it's a query that's called repetitively? < 1196785498 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I thought it came out really nicely! < 1196785516 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah there is a query which runs a single iteration < 1196785529 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could try Epigram or Agda >:) < 1196785533 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that makes more sense :P < 1196785540 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://rafb.net/p/fy3e5L63.html < 1196785541 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since SQL is in fact not TC, and the game of life is :P < 1196785560 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It doesnt' work in sqlite but you can split it in two to use sqlite) < 1196785593 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I couldn't get xemacs to work so I don't think I can use epigram here < 1196785601 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I would like to try it sometime < 1196785618 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thought he was joking < 1196785645 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regardless.. Epigram seems cool < 1196785658 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seeing as those languages are probably _more_ complicated than many that are TC < 1196785693 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't bother me :D < 1196785718 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Come now, pushdown automata aren't more complicated than Turing machines. < 1196785728 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^^ Counterexample :P < 1196785734 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess many people in this channel wouldn't be... < 1196785749 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: i was referring to epigram and agda < 1196785761 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahhh, specific choices, zomg < 1196785778 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or dependently typed languages in general < 1196785801 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the dependency almost forces a terminating language, iiuc < 1196785811 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since _types_ have to be terminating < 1196785899 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(disclosure: i haven't used any of them) < 1196785930 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like what i've seen of Coq.. the typechecking algorithm asks you for help! < 1196786043 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i recall trying to get Coq started but something was wrong with the UI that made me annoyed enough to uninstall it. < 1196786066 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use Proof General mode in emacs < 1196786074 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although some people are allergic to emacs or something < 1196786085 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway Proof General seems good < 1196786091 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cough*, *cack*, *aackpthoo* < 1196786131 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I really don't know what to do < 1196786161 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the shortest regex to match a set of strings is a decidable problems isn't it? < 1196786230 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in principle, since you can exhaustively test them... < 1196786252 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once you have one < 1196786392 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the SQL language allows for looping via recursion, but it intentionally tries to detect recursion and halt < 1196786410 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can decide whether two regular expressions match the same set < 1196789271 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1196789281 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-080-228-188-095.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1196795267 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1196795494 0 :faxathisia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1196795503 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1196798419 0 :RodgerTheGreat!n=Rodger@wads-5-232-170.resnet.mtu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1196799786 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought equivelance of regexs was undecideable < 1196800729 0 :RedDak!n=dak@87.6.86.131 JOIN :#esoteric < 1196804490 0 :Jontte!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://support.microsoft.com/kb/261186 < 1196804899 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahaha < 1196805056 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"CommandQ" < 1196805565 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :old < 1196805570 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am making saurkraut! < 1196806084 0 :RedDak!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1196811576 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"@+"