00:01:34 <ehird`> i wonder how many mellenia it'll take me to get to hello world
00:09:48 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:10:53 <ehird`> if i keep generating and mutating programs at random, odds are extremely high i'll hit it :)
00:11:06 <ehird`> .>+-+>+>+[>>.[]].+>->>.->>.+[>->][[.[-]..+---[->>]]>..>>>][+]+>>+>>>>>-[+[]]
00:11:06 <ehird`> "\000\000\000\000\000"
00:11:10 <ehird`> see? I get output already! ;)
00:11:16 <ehird`> although mostly i'm hitting inf-loops
00:12:01 <ehird`> that program outputted a shitload of \377
00:13:09 <ehird`> >-+>.>>->.>>>+..[[>[>[[>>[>>[+>>.>+>>>>[-->]>>..+[+].[>[>>[>>-.].>>-->>][>>+>-.[>[.+-]>]+[+[>-+-->]]>.]>-.[.[.+>>[+>>][[>>-++]+>[][[+.[+.>]>-]-.[>[+..[-+>..->.>]][+-]>]]]]]]]]]]]]]
00:13:14 <ehird`> outputs "\000\000\001\001"
00:13:20 <ehird`> not bad, really, it's getting differing output ;)
00:24:44 * Sgeo_ goes to murder yet another innocent norn
00:25:31 -!- calamari has joined.
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00:27:59 * Sgeo_ likes murdering norns
00:28:07 <Sgeo_> Although this last one died painlessly
00:31:19 <Sgeo_> The last one died of old age, actually.. admittedly, it was 0 minutes old and artificially aged, but still..
00:32:45 <Sgeo_> 'me push sgeo' how cute
00:35:43 <Sgeo_> And there's the more painful method, which fills it with pain constantly and attacks its internal organs
00:35:53 <Sgeo_> And you get to hear the norns scream
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00:40:25 * oerjan wouldn't want to mess horribly with goddesses of fate, himself. or maybe he would.
00:42:04 <Sgeo_> It took me a while to figure out what you were talking about
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02:29:32 <Sgeo_> Oh, I didn't mention in here that I grew another hand
02:29:54 <Sgeo_> http://forums.gamewaredevelopment.com/showthread.php?t=6299
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02:50:01 <GreaseMonkey> there's some really funky stuff you can do with windows
02:50:39 <GreaseMonkey> you can steal the windows 3.1 kernel from the windows 95 and 98 setup CDs
02:51:18 <GreaseMonkey> in the win98 ones, they're under mini.cab, precopy1.cab, and precopy2.cab
02:51:42 <GreaseMonkey> note that you WILL need to find a windows 3.1 shell
02:52:02 <GreaseMonkey> then you run xmsmmgr.exe from the CD, and dosx.exe from where you extracted the stuff
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02:56:37 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: progmgr.exe is the Windows 3.1 shell.
02:56:47 <pikhq> It's in one of the Win95 cabs. ;)
02:57:11 <GreaseMonkey> oh, and you can do pretty much the reverse under windows 3.1 by using winfile.exe as a shell
02:59:29 <dbc> You know what has a terrible user interface? The oboe. I used to play it when I was a kid. Ick.
03:01:33 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: Also, install Win32s.
03:01:48 <pikhq> (it's a subset of the Win32 API, which works under Windows 3.1. ;))
03:06:25 <GregorR> GreaseMonkey, pikhq: Alternatively, you could install Windows 3.1.
03:07:33 <GregorR> Time now to port WINE to Windows 3.1?
03:13:04 <GreaseMonkey> oh, as it turns out, winfile.exe was designed to be run as the windows 3.1 shell, but notepad.exe wasn't.
03:18:26 <graue> dbc: i've heard the violin is better
03:57:26 <immibis> two men are sitting in a bar: Rob V. Bert and Ivanna B. Kikked.
04:09:43 <GreaseMonkey> hehe: http://img.romerican.com/post070209_microsoft_windows_vista_wow_marketing_advertising_campaign.jpg
04:22:17 <immibis> puzzlet: say that out loud
04:24:20 <immibis> no, say it aloud. what does it sound like?
04:24:30 <immibis> it sounds like "I wanna be kicked"
04:24:56 <graue> joke only works if you are an op, who can kick people from the channel
04:27:39 <immibis> bug: esolangs wiki returns errors from MediaWikiBagOStuff at seemingly random times.
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11:50:38 <asiekierka> it'll be an OISC, but it'll NOT use subleq :/
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11:59:02 <ais523> have you seen noit o' mnain worb?
11:59:23 <ais523> it's not quite an OISC, but making transistor-like components seems to be the easiest way to program in it
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12:29:07 <oklopol> on another note, i am going to generate a brainfuck "hello world" using natural selection. <<< me too!
12:33:45 <EgoBot> 124 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++>++++++++<<<<-]>++.>+++.+++++++..+++.>++.------------.<++++++++.>>-.+++.------.--------.<+. [305]
12:45:49 <ais523> !daemon ul bf http://pastebin.ca/raw/367774
12:46:40 <ais523> I don't think it's possible to do better than that in Underload, and a natural selection program would likely find that quickly if at all well written
12:46:44 <ais523> Malbolge, on the other hand...
12:54:31 <ais523> !bf ++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++>++++++++<<<<-]>++.>+++.+++++++..+++.>++.------------.<++++++++.>>-.+++.------.--------.<+.
13:28:33 <asiekierka> !bf_txtgen Hello guys! I'm the man of the year, asiekierka.
13:28:54 <ais523> I don't think the txtgen code is very efficient
13:29:37 <asiekierka> I wonder if anybody will do an Artistic Piet Text Generator (i mean an esolang of course xD)
13:29:48 <ais523> that should leave only one of the processes running
13:32:33 <ais523> I can't think of one offhand; you might want to try asking a search engine
13:36:45 <asiekierka> !bf ++++++++++[>++++>+++++++>+++>++++++++++<<<<-]>>++.>>+.+++++++..+++.<++.>--------.++++++++++++++.++++.------.<+.-.<+.<-.>>>------.<.>+++++++.<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.---.<-------.>++++++++.>>-------------------.<<+.>.<+.>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<.>+++++.>++.---.<<.>+++++.>.>.<<-------.<++++++++++++.------------.>>>.<<+
13:36:47 <EgoBot> Hello guys! I'm the man of the year, a
13:38:22 <ais523> presumably it sent the whole thing, but it got cut off by the IRC servers because the line was too long
13:38:52 <ais523> I've been autokicked from the channel for typing too much on a line before, I think
13:46:22 <asiekierka> !bf +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>+++++++++>+++++++++++<<<<-]>>.>-.++++.-------.>-----.++++.----.<++++++++.--.+++++++++.<-.<-.>>+.---.<++++++++++++++.
13:46:35 <ais523> EgoBot doesn't trigger itself
13:47:13 <ais523> sometimes the interaction of two bots has been used to do this sort of loop, though, but bsmnt_bot doesn't seem to be here at the moment
13:49:35 <asiekierka> There should be a quine printing itself, but with "!bf " at the beginning.
13:50:50 <ais523> it's normally easy to modify a quine to do that sort of thing
13:51:03 <ais523> except the famous Lisp one, because !bf isn't legal Lisp
13:52:38 <asiekierka> just to make a quine print it at the beginning, then itself.
13:54:15 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:54:25 -!- puzzlet has joined.
13:54:53 <ais523> the Lisp quine works by manipulating Lisp expressions rather than strings, so would need to be rewritten to print a non-lisp expression at the start
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14:14:01 <oklopol> <asiekierka> There should be a quine printing itself, but with "!bf " at the beginning.
14:14:08 <oklopol> oldest trick in the book :P
14:15:32 <ais523> !ul ((!bf )SaS(:^)S):^
14:15:35 <EgoBot> !bf ((!bf )SaS(:^)S):^
14:15:48 <ais523> Underload is a pretty good language for writing quines in
14:16:13 <ais523> Of course, it should be this:
14:16:15 <ais523> !ul ((!ul )SaS(:^)S):^
14:16:17 <EgoBot> !ul ((!ul )SaS(:^)S):^
14:16:29 <ais523> !ul ((<ais523> !ul )SaS(:^)S):^
14:16:31 <EgoBot> <ais523> !ul ((<ais523> !ul )SaS(:^)S):^
14:16:54 <oklopol> ais523: is underload your lang?
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14:17:38 <oklopol> not based on the fact you constantly use it as an example, but because i recall seeing your name on the page, for the not
14:18:14 <ehird`> i really need to write a bouncer.
14:18:19 <oklopol> underload is one of my favorite stack languages, although i haven't used it much
14:18:33 <ais523> I like Underload a lot too
14:18:43 <oklopol> ehird`: or you can just keep irc open
14:18:57 <ehird`> oklopol: the computer shuts down
14:19:14 <ehird`> heck, even when my mac gets back [soon, soon] i put it on sleep when i leave
14:19:21 <ehird`> and because this computer is noisy as fuck
14:19:41 <ehird`> also, what about when i need to reboor
14:19:51 <ehird`> my server on the other hand NEVER dies :)
14:20:00 <oklopol> i've never seen our gas bill, and my parents have never complained about my comps, don't really know how much this uses :P
14:20:19 <ehird`> once i tried leaving it on
14:20:23 <oklopol> pneumatic computer, i have it.
14:20:26 <ehird`> when the electricity bill arrived
14:20:33 <ehird`> i can tell you it was not a fun number :-)
14:26:25 <ehird`> !ul ((**ul )SaS(:^)S):^
14:26:29 <EgoBot> **ul ((**ul )SaS(:^)S):^
14:26:45 <ehird`> that would need me to add **ul to peyavi
14:26:55 <ehird`> "**ul ((!ul )SaS(:^)S):^"
14:27:01 <ehird`> which is a bit harder, than the above
14:27:21 <ehird`> hey, this wsa all a few minutes ago
14:27:25 <ais523> you need to wrap it in quotes?
14:27:34 <ehird`> **ul ((**ul )SaS(:^)S):^
14:27:36 <ehird`> **ul ((!ul )SaS(:^)S):^
14:28:10 <ehird`> So basically we need: !ul program-that-produces-itself-but-with-**ul-in-front-of-it-and-in-the-program-code-**ul-replaced-with-!ul
14:28:24 <ais523> this is usually done more easily asymmetrically
14:29:08 <ehird`> but still, in underload quite a challenge
14:29:16 <ehird`> (If it was in brainfuck -- even more so)
14:30:20 <ais523> !ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
14:30:23 <EgoBot> **ul (!ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^)S
14:30:34 <ais523> !ul (!ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^)S
14:30:37 <EgoBot> !ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
14:30:50 <ehird`> ais523: Is there a reference Underload implementation? :P
14:31:01 <ais523> it's in JavaScript, linked from the wiki
14:31:01 <ehird`> Also, is there a way to make EgoBot join a channel, so we do not flood here?
14:31:14 <ais523> there's /query EgoBot, which I use
14:31:16 <ehird`> javascript :| i don't want to install spidermonkey and call it from my bot, haha
14:31:26 <ehird`> well yeah but my bot can't /query EgoBot and still let us see
14:31:32 <ais523> EgoBot's running Keymaker's Underload-in-BF program
14:31:38 <ais523> which I modified to work as an IRC daemon
14:31:59 <ais523> see http://pastebin.ca/367774
14:32:06 <ehird`> i don't have a BF impl embedded yet
14:32:35 <ehird`> also, ()^ is in no way a self-interp unless you count 'eval' as one ;)
14:33:06 <ais523> eval's a self-interpreter by cheating
14:33:45 <ehird`> maybe in e.g. CMUCL and SBCL and lots of Lisps
14:33:50 <ehird`> since they themselvs are written in lisp
14:33:55 <ehird`> but in Python or something? i wouldn't count it :P
14:34:54 <ais523> Underload maybe should have an input command that takes a character and converts it to a Church numeral
14:35:13 <ais523> 0 as a Church numeral in Underload is (!()), but the rest follow a pattern
14:35:59 <ais523> then multiplication is * and exponentiation is ^, thus the characters used for those operations
14:38:23 <ais523> of course, once you've started doing calculations on them they end up looking like mess like (:*::!()*:**), but that's what happens when your only string operations are concatenation, eval, and enclose-in-parens
14:39:49 <ais523> I posted a new Underload program to the wiki talkpage today, actually
14:40:03 <ais523> I'd been meaning to for a while, but was reminded when Keymaker posted one yesterday
14:40:51 <ehird`> ais523: this interp is obfuscated! :-)
14:41:51 <ais523> which interpreter are you referring to?
14:42:15 <ais523> My JavaScript interpreter isn't deliberately obfuscated, so if you think it's obfuscated it's because I always write like that
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14:43:49 <ehird`> ais523: "o" is the output right?
14:44:27 <ais523> it's the textarea that holds the output, so yes
14:44:39 <ais523> p and s are the textareas that hold the program and stack
14:44:55 <ais523> and the stack elements are separated by <> because that isn't a legal string anyway in an Underload program
14:45:30 <ais523> only I forgot to implement the quoting-with-" for special characters
14:45:47 <ehird`> so if i made o a string
14:45:51 <ais523> I wonder if the BF version implements that?
14:45:52 <ehird`> and removed the timeout
14:46:58 <ais523> I think the quoting-with-" is probably now officialy not part of the language because nobody ever bothered to implement it
14:47:08 <ais523> o isn't a legal Underload command
14:47:52 <oklopol> heh, "ulos" is finnish for out :O
14:48:17 <oklopol> dunno if that's funny unless saying "o" is your standard way to test output
14:49:08 <ais523> length of time to wait before recursively calling yourself
14:49:26 <ais523> it's the way you do a slow loop in JavaScript without busy-waiting
14:49:52 <ais523> that is, once the function finishes running, it schedules the window to call itself in lp milliseconds
14:50:09 <ais523> and while it isn't running (that is, most of the time) it's possible to do other things on the same browser
14:51:15 -!- peyavi has joined.
14:51:27 <ehird`> i need to pass the stack
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14:52:00 <ehird`> now it's tail-recursive
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14:52:37 <ehird`> ais523: what should the stack be initially?
14:52:49 <oklopol> wonder if i'm evil enough to implement that into ololobot before you ;)
14:53:08 * ais523 doesn't even have a bot
14:53:22 <ehird`> oklopol: i've already done it, really
14:53:30 <ehird`> oklopol: just fixing 1 or 2 bugs
14:53:42 <ais523> if you're getting an empty-stack error, it may be that the (o) isn't being pushed onto the stack properly
14:53:44 <oklopol> then i'd be in a bit of a hurry.
14:53:50 <ehird`> if(s.indexOf("<>")==-1) {throw("ERROR: Empty stack");}
14:54:18 <ais523> if there's an o on the stack, then s is "o<>"
14:54:33 <ais523> with an o and a p (with the p on top) it would be "p<>o<>"
14:54:55 <ehird`> ah heck i'll implement my own
14:55:41 <ehird`> oklopol: it's really annoying how i can't even add something to my bot without you going on and on about implementing it yourself.
14:59:07 <oklopol> but... i thought it was our thing!
14:59:14 <oklopol> i have to leave anyway, now
14:59:26 <peyavi> !paste | see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
14:59:28 <peyavi> oklopol: i've already done it, really
14:59:30 <peyavi> oklopol: just fixing 1 or 2 bugs
14:59:34 <peyavi> under root user i can find most famous , "catagorised" apps for linux.
14:59:36 <peyavi> short, one is you can utilize more RAM
14:59:37 <peyavi> whats rm -rf myfolder, myfolder will be gone.
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14:59:51 <ehird`> ais523: i think i fixed it
15:00:28 <oklopol> ehird`: also, may i once again remind you markov chains were my idea first ;)
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15:00:52 <oklopol> i need to see the underload spec
15:00:53 <ehird`> oklopol: markov chains were not your idea :P
15:00:55 -!- peyavi has joined.
15:01:09 <oklopol> i mean implementing them in a bot
15:01:29 <ehird`> markov chains were in bots beforey ou did that
15:01:51 <oklopol> i mean implementing them in a bot, now
15:02:13 <oklopol> anyway, either get my point or don't
15:03:40 <oklopol> i'll make it, i'll just not put it in the bot, i'm gonna implement every lang on esolangs.org anyway
15:04:41 -!- peyavi has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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15:04:53 <peyavi> TypeError: p.value has no properties
15:05:13 -!- peyavi has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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15:08:34 <ais523> ehird`: have you remembered to remove all the .value suffixes from the code?
15:09:10 -!- peyavi has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:09:21 -!- peyavi has joined.
15:09:22 <ehird`> ais523: in fact, i've made it extra evil just now
15:09:24 <peyavi> ReferenceError: p is not defined
15:09:51 -!- peyavi has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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15:10:23 <ehird`> ok how do you invite egobot somewhere?
15:11:39 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
15:11:41 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
15:12:21 <ehird`> ok who has a copy of egobot lying around
15:12:31 <ehird`> ais523: run the infinite loop quine thing
15:12:37 <ehird`> i'll kill peyavi when the flood starts
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15:12:50 <ais523> !ul (!ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^)S
15:12:53 <EgoBot> !ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
15:12:54 -!- peyavi has joined.
15:13:03 <ais523> !ul (!ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^)S
15:13:07 <EgoBot> !ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
15:13:23 <ais523> !ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
15:13:25 <EgoBot> **ul (!ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^)S
15:13:25 <peyavi> !ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
15:13:27 <EgoBot> **ul (!ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^)S
15:13:27 <peyavi> !ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
15:13:29 <EgoBot> **ul (!ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^)S
15:13:29 <peyavi> !ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
15:13:29 <peyavi> !ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
15:13:31 <EgoBot> **ul (!ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^)S
15:13:31 <peyavi> !ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
15:13:33 <EgoBot> **ul (!ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^)S
15:13:33 <peyavi> !ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
15:13:35 -!- peyavi has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:13:35 <EgoBot> **ul (!ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^)S
15:13:37 <EgoBot> **ul (!ul ((**ul )Sa(!ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^)S
15:15:35 <ehird`> an esoteric language designed to write esolang interpreters
15:15:48 <ais523> I'm working on at least two of those at the moment
15:16:15 <ais523> and there's Thutu, of course; its wimpmode version Thutu2 is the only language in which Forte has been implemented
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15:20:05 <ais523> are you sure that you mean to be sending smart-quotes as input to the channel?
15:20:10 -!- peyavi has joined.
15:20:13 <ais523> three backquotes are likely to work better
15:20:38 <ais523> you're right, it's my client
15:20:50 <ehird`> which is why you should dump chatzilla :)
15:20:57 <ais523> I don't have any choice in the matter
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15:21:47 <peyavi> ((:)~*(~)*a(~*(~^)*)*)()~^()~^((:)~*(~)*a(~*(~^)*)*)()~^()~^~^
15:22:11 <peyavi> ((:)~*(~)*a(~*(~^)*)*)
15:22:14 <peyavi> ((:)~*(~)*a(~*(~^)*)*)(a(!)~*)~^
15:22:17 <peyavi> ((:)~*(~)*a(~*(~^)*)*)(a(!)~*)~^(a(!)~*)~^
15:22:27 <peyavi> ((:)~*(~)*a(~*(~^)*)*)~^
15:22:39 <peyavi> ((H)S)((i)S)~^((!)S)~^()~^~^
15:22:54 <ehird`> **ul ((H)S)((i)S)~^((!)S)~^()~^~^
15:23:04 <peyavi> ((H)S)((i)S)~^((!)S)~^()~^
15:23:09 <ais523> mistake in my program, sorry
15:23:26 <ais523> **ul ((H)S)((i)S)~^((!)S)~^()~^
15:23:31 <ais523> !ul ((H)S)((i)S)~^((!)S)~^()~^
15:24:39 <ais523> **ul (a)(b(c))(d)(e)~*:!*(S)^
15:25:01 <ehird`> standalone, spidermonkey source: http://pastebin.ca/raw/792589
15:25:10 <ehird`> syntax highlighted: http://pastebin.ca/792589
15:25:14 <ehird`> yes, the _ object is evil :)
15:25:34 * ais523 was writing another Underload interpreter during that
15:25:38 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/792590
15:26:27 <ehird`> i'll write one functionally, in scheme
15:26:41 <ais523> mine does no error checking, though
15:34:28 <ehird`> are the only commands atm
15:34:39 <ehird`> but it has got all the infrastructure
15:34:54 <ehird`> multithreaded commands, argument parsing, helper methods, etc
15:34:57 <ehird`> just not many real commands :-)
15:36:25 <ehird`> I wish there was a Scheme implementation like regular, CL Lisps
15:36:29 <ehird`> I find them amusing :-)
15:36:38 <ehird`> with their core image files and their full VMs and everything
15:36:48 <ehird`> it's so detached from the OS or anything
15:36:52 <ehird`> still, MIT scheme is pretty close
15:37:47 <ehird`> .. I also wish there was an editor other than Emacs that works well with scheme. :|
15:38:37 <ais523> I'm sure that one exists
15:38:59 <ais523> whether it's easy to obtain a copy is another matter
15:40:29 <ehird`> bah, mit scheme doesn't implement enough srfis for me
15:40:32 <ehird`> time to find another impl
15:40:54 <ehird`> i wish there was an agreement of what scheme interpreter to use
15:41:26 <ehird`> I guess scheme48/PLT scheme are the main choices
15:41:49 <ais523> I suppose you could just implement scheme in Common Lisp or vice versa
15:41:59 <ehird`> but common lisp makes me sad :P
15:42:15 <ehird`> the only thing i like about common lisp is its weird systems :P
15:44:25 <ais523> How many implementations of Underload does that make now?
15:44:52 <ais523> There's the original JS, the modified JS, the BF, the Thutu, and the Perl (not counting the self-interpreter-by-cheating)
15:46:22 <ehird`> and now my scheme when gauche installs
16:06:26 * ais523 has just come across a great Ben Olmstead quote
16:07:01 <ais523> "I think Malbolge needs an update. I may write Visual M++ 2008 Extra Ultimate Edition if I'm feeling bored some weekend."
16:09:02 <ehird`> ((#\*) (ul-inner program (cons (append (cadr stack) (car stack)) (cddr stack)) output inner))
16:09:10 <ehird`> ais523: i have a feeling this isn't idiomatic scheme :)
16:10:12 <ais523> is that the code for the ~ instruction?
16:10:17 <ais523> and are you tail-recursively looping?
16:10:46 <ais523> I understand lispy scheme, but not the strings of punctuation marks that appear every now and then
16:11:25 <ehird`> #\c is the character c in scheme
16:11:31 <ehird`> # is used for 'extra atoms'
16:11:53 <ais523> I missed the 'append', you're right, that is *
16:11:55 <ehird`> #t #f #\newline #\tab #\space #\c (where c is a char)
16:12:11 <ehird`> also i'm tail-recursively looping yeah.
16:12:19 <ehird`> wimping out for parens though
16:12:30 <ehird`> and just making a inner-parens or something function
16:13:31 <ais523> I must have a go at writing a Cyclexa version sometime
16:13:46 <ais523> but I'll have to finish up the spec and start writing the interpreter first
16:15:54 <ais523> and I should probably avoid mentioning languages in IRC channels when nobody else knows what they are because I haven't posted any info
16:17:30 <ehird`> what's the singular of parentheses?
16:22:09 <ehird`> ^ When the ^ command is called, it includes the top element of the stack into the program, immediately after the ^ command, ready to be run next.
16:23:18 <ais523> does pop, that's a mistake in the definition. I'll go and fix it on the wiki
16:23:51 <ehird`> then i have an underload interp in 31 lines
16:24:16 <ehird`> and also 100% functional
16:24:29 <ehird`> output comes after the program is run
16:24:35 <ehird`> so, no e.g. fibonacci program atm
16:24:41 <ehird`> i can easily fix that.
16:24:54 <ais523> that's not a problem really for an output-only language, except for infinite loops
16:27:08 <ais523> the way the non-wimpmode Thutu is defined it's incapable of doing output without asking for input
16:27:31 <ais523> but this doesn't technically speaking restrict what I/O sequences are allowed, because it can always be stored up until input is needed
16:27:52 <ais523> it's pretty frustrating, though, which is why I used the wimpmode version Thutu2
16:29:01 <ehird`> give me an underload program to test
16:29:24 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
16:30:22 <ais523> the standard quine (:aSS):aSS is one possibility to test
16:31:05 <ais523> if you want something harder, you could try one of Keymaker's programs, or the decimal-counting program I just posted on the wiki talk page
16:31:44 <ais523> and there's (a)(b(c))(d)(e)~*:!*(S)^ which I just came up with off the top of my head to test the Perl version (and checked the correct result with peyavi)
16:35:01 <ais523> do you have a debugger?
16:35:24 <ais523> printf debugging in Scheme would be quite a beauty to behold, I expect, especially if you were just dumping expressions
16:36:12 <ehird`> yeah i don't want to printf (display) debug in scheme :P
16:36:18 <ehird`> i wonder if there IS a scheme debugger..
16:36:23 <ehird`> I mean, generally you don't debug in lisp
16:36:26 <ehird`> you load stuff into your REPL
16:36:30 <ehird`> and test +modify it there
16:38:10 <ehird`> I think my parens don't match up
16:38:29 * ehird` resigns to the fact that he needs to use emacs
16:38:47 * ais523 uses Emacs all the time
16:39:32 <GregorR> EMACS is a perfectly good OS, albeit showing its age. With evile or similar it has a fairly good text editor, and the browser, IRC client etc aren't bad.
16:40:43 <ehird`> GregorR: ha, ha, we did this last week.
16:42:00 <ais523> it doesn't work very well as an OS on DOS, due to the impossibility of multiple processes
16:42:23 <ais523> it works better than many other text editors on DOS for much the same reason
16:45:49 <pikhq> GregorR: From #emacs: "Emacs follows the Unix philosophy. It does one thing, and does it well: everything." :p
16:46:59 <ehird`> emacs is infuriating me already! :P
16:47:48 <ehird`> pikhq: are you defending it? :P
16:48:01 <GregorR> pikhq: OMG, that's so brilliant I may have to switch to EMACS :P
16:48:17 <ehird`> GregorR: Ok, come on, emacs may be terrible, but it's not called EMACS any more :P
16:48:19 <pikhq> ehird`: I'm a member of the Church of Emacs.
16:48:37 <pikhq> ehird`: Using Vi is not a sin in the CoE, BTW.
16:48:50 <GregorR> ehird`: I thought people were just lazy and decapped, I didn't realize it had been officially decapped.
16:48:54 <pikhq> Only using nonfree software is a sin in it.
16:49:04 <ehird`> pikhq: On my mac i use a non-free editor. :P
16:49:19 <ais523> I believe the Emacs solution to vi was to try to emulate it
16:49:19 <pikhq> Then I sentence you to a horrendous penance.
16:49:28 <GregorR> Well, you're using it on a nonfree system, so you have more problems than just the editor :P
16:49:29 <pikhq> Use Vi (or viper-mode).
16:49:31 <ais523> and then talk about why the Emacs version of vi was so superior
16:49:33 <ehird`> GregorR: It officially refers to itself as "Emacs" or "GNU Emacs"
16:49:44 <ehird`> the title bar says "emacs@hostname", though, but that's just to be unix-y in specifying it
16:50:14 <ehird`> ais523: "Instead of i you can type (set-vi-mode 'insert)"
16:50:22 <ehird`> "This allows for additional flexibility"
16:50:54 <ais523> ehird`: are you agreeing with me or arguing with me? I can't quite tell
16:52:42 <ais523> they have a whole chapter in their manual about why Emacs' version of vi is so much better than vi
16:52:50 <ais523> but they sort of miss the point about why people use bi
16:53:27 <ais523> by the way, what's your favourite backronym for EMACS
16:54:33 <ais523> I'd go with Escape-Meta-Alt-Control-Shift, although that doesn't actually do anything by itself because that's five modifier keys without specifying a character at the end of it
16:55:52 -!- ais523 has quit ("changing to a different computer, will be logged off IRC in the meantime").
16:56:30 <ehird`> oh my god!!! emacs just indented with a mix of spaces and tabs!!
16:56:40 * ehird` runs to #emacs and demands to know how to disable it
16:56:58 <GregorR> Damn I before E except after C and when pronounced 'ay' as in neighbor and weigh!!!
16:57:11 <ehird`> GregorR: or a few other cases!
16:57:28 <GregorR> But piece isn't one of them :P
16:57:46 <pikhq> Escape == Meta == Alt in modern Emacs, anyways.
16:57:57 <pikhq> So, that's 3 modifiers.
16:58:07 <GregorR> I thought escape was escape?
16:58:45 <pikhq> GregorR: Escape is set to be Alt to allow for archaic systems without an alt key.
16:59:35 <ehird`> it's (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil)
16:59:52 <ehird`> GregorR: of course its archaic
17:00:15 <ehird`> GregorR: the emacs tutorial says things like "If you are running in a windowed environment, ..." and "If your terminal has cursor keys, ..."
17:00:32 <pikhq> Emacs still runs on the PDP-11, IIRC.
17:00:36 <ehird`> no -- seriously, it does :)
17:00:50 <GregorR> pikhq: Doesn't surprise me. ehird`: Doesn't surprise me.
17:00:57 <pikhq> All this is because some people actually *use* it on such old systems.
17:01:12 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:01:43 <ehird`> pikhq: Okay -- but nobody uses emacs on a PDP-11.
17:01:48 <ehird`> I will not accept that! ;)
17:02:07 <pikhq> Someone actually runs GCC on a PDP-11. ;)
17:02:22 <pikhq> (why else would the PDP-11 backend still work?)
17:04:34 <ais523> as for 'if you're running in a windowed environment...'; when I run Emacs on DJGPP on DOS on NTVDM on Windows, Emacs doesn't have access to the windowed environment it's running on 4 levels down, and besides I normally run it in full-screen mode
17:05:01 <ais523> if you look hard enough there'll probably be a mode designed to pipe output to a lineprinter
17:05:05 <pikhq> If you run emacs without X, you don't have a windowed environment.
17:05:19 <pikhq> ais523: Confirmed.
17:05:29 <pikhq> Somewhere in with the DOS stuff in the manual.
17:09:07 * ais523 is busy reading the horrific details about newlines in Emacs on DOS
17:09:44 <ais523> it's a real problem, though. I know because the INTERCAL compiler I maintain now targets both Linux/UNIX systems and DOS via DJGPP, and everything has to be written for both
17:10:08 <ais523> also, all the important filenames are 8.3, so instead of 'configure' you configure it with 'config.sh'
17:10:54 <ehird`> nobody sane uses dos!!!
17:10:58 <ehird`> (even insane people like us)
17:11:13 <ais523> it's the sanest way I found to run it under Windows
17:11:34 <ais523> NTVDM is awful, but it's possible to work around most of its bugs with frequent restarting
17:12:01 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:12:06 <ais523> the most annoying is the way that it crashes with a Windows error message every time I run 'tar', for no obvious reason
17:12:30 <ais523> oh, and the printer stuff in the DOS section is a false positive
17:24:08 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:29:34 -!- Sgeo has joined.
17:32:36 <ehird`> ais523: because he was as annoying yesterday as the previous time he came in
17:32:56 * ais523 will have to read the logs a bit further back
17:35:54 <ais523> it seems reasonable to me, but I have an unusually high tolerance
17:36:16 <GregorR> Yeah, that seems a bit harsh.
17:36:19 <ais523> and being a Wikipedia admin, I also have a tendency to help new users rather than insulating them
17:36:47 <ehird`> yeah, well last time he came in here [not yesterday] he spammed up the channel
17:36:52 <ehird`> also got his bot to spam it at one point
17:37:05 <ehird`> and yelled a lot when people did not reply to him within 30 seconds
17:37:22 <ais523> sounds to me like someone who's eager but doesn't really understand IRC
17:37:45 <ehird`> ais523: yes -- that's his defense. along with "I'm only 10!!!"
17:37:56 <asiekierka> I'm also a dumbass that nobody cares about.
17:38:08 <Slereah-> Let us show you the SUPER HIGHWAY OF INFORMATION.
17:38:14 <ehird`> i just stated how you have been in this channel
17:38:31 <asiekierka> So you stated in 4 words "Asie is a dumbass".
17:38:50 <ehird`> but if you'd like to believe that's what i said, go ahead
17:38:56 <pikhq> You're just young is all.
17:39:38 <ehird`> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Nobody_cares
17:39:39 <GregorR> Ah, to be young again. And also a robot.
17:39:51 <ais523> ehird`: it was inevitable that someone would post that link
17:40:05 <ais523> even though I've never actually seen what's at the other end of it
17:40:20 <ehird`> it's not a shock site or anything
17:40:39 <Slereah-> Well, at least until you search it for goatse.
17:40:52 <ehird`> there's no goatse on that page. :P
17:41:07 <Slereah-> But who knows! It might only be clicks away!
17:41:10 <ais523> last time I tried to look at uncyclopedia was in a cybercafe, and I hit a content filter
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17:41:36 <asiekierka> o`/ Well, why you should? I don't know! o`/
17:41:44 <ehird`> soon, asiekierka will discover razor blades
17:41:49 <ehird`> and then we'll all be investigated
17:42:22 * ais523 wonders how to de-escalate this discussion without making it worse or insulting one side or the other for life
17:42:23 <asiekierka> o`/ No you will not be. Why? I don't know o`/
17:42:58 <GregorR> ais523: I do believe the solution is to simply put people on temporary ignore, allow the argument to resolve itself in time, and then let the ignores expire.
17:43:02 <Slereah-> ais523 : The solution would probably be to steer the conversation toward something unrelated.
17:43:05 <ehird`> asiekierka, your song-writing skills are lacking.
17:43:32 -!- asiekierka has left (?).
17:43:54 <ehird`> he'll be back in 10 minutes
17:44:53 -!- _ has joined.
17:45:01 <ehird`> when i say '10 minutes'
17:45:06 <ehird`> i actually mean '1 minute'
17:45:18 <ehird`> disguised as an underscore
17:45:25 <_> you know that's me, right?
17:45:33 -!- _ has changed nick to asiekierka.
17:45:42 <ehird`> no. "_ (n=asiekier@81.15.226.6) has joined #esoteric" did not give it away at all.
17:46:11 <asiekierka> Waiting for somebody to say that he likes me.
17:46:37 <Slereah-> Hm. My sarcasm muscle is twitching.
17:46:46 <ais523> Slereah-: base 1 uses no digits but 0
17:47:36 <GregorR> Base 1 is unresolvable, but anyway.
17:47:40 <Slereah-> Well, it could be that base 1 only use 1, and 0 as a place holder.
17:47:47 <ehird`> but let's assume he meant "unary, with 0 as nop"
17:48:00 <ehird`> Slereah-: base 2 uses 10, base 3 uses 210
17:48:04 <ehird`> so, base 1 must use only 0
17:48:05 <ais523> there should be more numeric systems with NOPs in
17:48:09 <ehird`> so, nothing can be expressed in base 1
17:48:19 <ais523> you could use an infinite number of 0s
17:48:23 <ais523> not that it would help much
17:49:14 <ais523> of course, that can't be the first line of the program, because such lines are traditionally numbered '10', and it's undefined behaviour to redefine integers while you're actually using them
17:50:59 <GregorR> There is one number that can be expressed in base 0.
17:51:46 <ais523> no, the only number that can be expressed in base 0 is the null string
17:52:01 <ais523> because it doesn't use any symbols at all
17:52:15 <ais523> on the other hand, base -2 uses two symbols, so maybe the pattern doesn't last indefinitely...
17:52:32 <GregorR> Since I made giant horrible errors saying what I was trying to say there, I'll repeat: There is one number that can be expressed in base 1, namely 0.
17:53:17 <ais523> Agreed. There are an infinite number of ways to express it, too.
17:53:38 <GregorR> Well, there are an infinite number of ways to express 0 in any base.
17:54:20 <ais523> in Roman Numerals, there aren't any ways to express 0 at all, but it isn't really a base
17:54:56 <GregorR> I'm perfectly happy with terrorist numerals, thank you very much.
17:55:14 <ais523> I don't get the reference
17:56:23 <ais523> I like oerjan's Aromabic, personally
17:56:27 <GregorR> 0123456789 = Arab numerals, and my govment learned me that there TERRISTS
17:56:45 <ais523> I'm even thinking about implementing them as a new I/O format for INTERCAL
17:56:50 <ais523> so that it can actually read its own output
17:57:04 <GregorR> More info, por favor. (URL?)
17:57:05 <ais523> only shortest-length representations of numbers would be allowed
17:57:23 <ais523> GregorR: it's in the logs somewhere, but might take a while to find
17:57:52 <GregorR> I'm sure the keyword "aromabic" will help :P (/me hunts)
17:58:53 <ais523> basically, each character in [0123456789IVXLCDM] is a command in a language that modifies one number on top of the stack
17:59:14 <ais523> well, there's no way to access any other stack elements, so it's a bit of a degenerate stack
17:59:34 <ais523> the number at TOS starts at 0
17:59:48 <ais523> any digit multiplies TOS by 10 and then adds itself to TOS
18:00:17 <ais523> so that strings like "1234" map to exactly the numbers you'd expect if you're used to decimal and aren't expecting something esoteric to surprise you
18:01:33 <ais523> whilst the letters each have a value (as in ordinary roman numerals); say TOS is t, their value is n, and % is the modulus operator, then they map t to t+n-2*(t%n)
18:01:50 <ais523> sorry, it took me a while to remember what the exact formula was
18:02:00 <ehird`> So what's "0123456789IVXLCDM"? :)
18:02:11 <ais523> so IV = 1V = 1+5-(1*2) = 4
18:02:36 <ais523> 0123456789I would be 1234567890
18:02:51 <GregorR> So, if you're writing in roman numerals, it works ... and if you're writing in decimal, it works ... but you can also mix and match.
18:03:50 <GregorR> Incidentally, how is that a stack? Seems like just a single register.
18:03:52 <ais523> then the V makes it 1234567895, X: 1234567895, L:1234567855, C:1234567845, D:1234567655, M:1234567345
18:04:02 <ais523> it isn't, I just said 'stack' to start with and then kept on going
18:04:24 <ais523> presumably you could use these as numeric input commands in a Befunge-like language
18:04:45 <ais523> the idea is that INTERCAL would only accept minimum-length representations
18:05:42 <ais523> so one possible way to count would be 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,X,11,12,...,49,L,51,52,...,99,C,CI,X2,X3,...,X9,CX, and so on
18:06:10 <ais523> it can be quite confusing trying to work out minimum length representations of numbers
18:06:33 <ais523> unfortunately very large numbers normally end up mostly in decimal; maybe if the overlined versions of letters are used that would help
18:06:42 <ais523> and the lowercase letters that INTERCAL uses for times-1000
18:10:16 -!- oklopol has joined.
18:11:04 <ehird`> asiekierka: you should learn to teach yourself languages
18:11:10 <ehird`> you won't find many esolang tutorials beyond brainfuck
18:11:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:13:28 -!- ais523 has joined.
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18:15:54 <ais523> that disconnection was slightly scary, by the way
18:16:18 <ais523> I know it just looked like a normal remote-close from the logs, but what happened was that the terminal I was using lost network access
18:17:17 <GregorR> I don't know if I'd use the term "scary" for that :P
18:17:19 <ais523> so I was forcibly logged off both the UNIX server and the Windows terminal without even so much as a close-files-I'm-using, and then had to find and kill the processes that were left behind and keeping the files open that would let me reconnect
18:17:42 <ais523> and then the Windows terminal rebooted for no apparent reason, no, correction, it turned itself off
18:18:11 <ais523> and I ended up deleting my entire .mozilla directory
18:18:24 <ais523> to try to get things back to some semblance of sanity
18:19:05 <Slereah-> It deconnected because he fell in a time vortex.
18:19:45 <ais523> oklopol: it was more than a minute at my end, more like 5 minutes according to the logs
18:20:04 <ais523> it's just that the deconnection was so sudden it took the servers some time to notice that it had even happened
18:20:21 <ais523> I'm on a different terminal at the moment, hoping the same thing won't happen again
18:20:44 <oklopol> that's some serious time dilation
18:20:48 <ehird`> it was 2 minutes, ais523
18:21:06 <oklopol> and a bee flew into my room, it's fucking -10 outside :\
18:21:14 <ais523> it was more like 18:06->18:13 to me
18:21:15 <oklopol> well i guess more like 0, but anyway
18:21:40 <ehird`> oklopol: "HALP AM WANT HOME COLD OUT DER"
18:21:41 <Slereah-> Shouldn't it be in its hive hibernating?
18:22:02 <ais523> and why did I just try to use tab completion on the word 'hibernate'?
18:22:11 <oklopol> it was actually just a fly, looked bigger first
18:22:23 <oklopol> although i don't know if they should be awake either...
18:23:06 <oklopol> ais523: happens to me often too
18:23:08 <Slereah-> Apparently most bees don't hibernate.
18:24:36 <Sgeo> That was madness
18:24:55 <Sgeo> I made a norn trapped in an elevator's body which looks like a robot toy
18:26:48 <Slereah-> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers/6exd65h.png
18:28:00 -!- ehird[erc] has joined.
18:28:33 <oklopol> Slereah-: what was that now?
18:28:58 <Slereah-> "The barbarian messenger spoke: "You profane! You are all mad!" Replied Leonidas: "We are mad? WE ARE SPARTA.""
18:29:00 <ais523> ehird[erc]: I didn't even realise that Emacs had an IRC client
18:29:19 <ais523> although I suppose I should have guessed
18:29:25 <ehird[erc]> it has 3 in the standard distrobution, iirc
18:29:45 -!- ehird[rcirc] has joined.
18:30:08 <asiekierka> You know how to make an easiest quine in some of esoteric languages?
18:30:20 <ehird`> asiekierka: WOW THAT'S NEW AND EXCITING
18:30:28 <ehird`> really??? nobody ever put an empty file in an interpreter before!!
18:30:36 <pikhq> I prefer the one that must be possible in any Turing machine.
18:30:39 -!- RedDak has joined.
18:31:00 <oklopol> The empty program is not a quine in <???>.
18:31:14 <ais523> the impressive version of the null quine was when someone submitted it to the IOCCC
18:31:29 <ais523> with a makefile that made it produce no output even though there was an error
18:31:44 <ais523> they added a minimum length of 1 byte after that
18:31:57 <ais523> and oklopol, you're thinking of "In HOMESPRING, the null program is not a quine."
18:32:23 <oklopol> i remembered it has something to do with fishes... that was a fucking helpful clue.
18:32:40 <ais523> there was a one-character program before that used preprocessor tricks to become a valid program
18:32:47 <ais523> so they had to limit the length of the makefile
18:32:56 <ais523> it apparently drove some versions of lint into an infinite loop
18:34:15 <ais523> I can't remember, but I think it's mentioned in one of the hint files, if that helps
18:34:20 <ais523> they removed the limit again after a while, I think
18:36:55 <ais523> I think there's also a rule that the resulting C file has to be executable
18:37:06 <ais523> after the record breaking hello, world
18:37:16 <ehird`> GregorR: gimme a binary
18:37:32 <ehird`> ais523: it still would be
18:37:37 <ehird`> just do some crazy gcc tricks
18:37:44 <ehird`> and include a header file or something
18:37:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:38:36 <ais523> the build-size rule was apparently a 160 byte limit
18:38:49 <ais523> although someone got round that one year with a sh/make/C polyglot
18:39:03 <ehird`> 160 bytes?? for a makefile?
18:39:11 <Sgeo> no oerjan (no=hi)
18:39:22 <oerjan> ais523: i don't think i've said so yet, congratulations!
18:39:25 <ais523> oh, and the record Hello, world was char*_="Hello world.\n";
18:39:39 <ehird`> you do realise, Sgeo, that "hi" is the same amount of typing as "no"
18:40:22 * oerjan disappears in a puff of Sgeo's logic
18:40:33 <Sgeo> ehird`, yes, I realize that, it's just that no=hi is a Sine meme
18:40:44 <ais523> the build instructions contained what was effectively -o /dev/stdout
18:40:58 <Sgeo> It's a semi-private IRC network
18:41:13 <ais523> sorry, /dev/tty but it comes to much the same thing
18:41:15 <ehird`> how can something be "semi-private"? :p
18:41:33 <ehird`> ais523: how did it avoid binary crap?
18:41:33 <ais523> maybe it's protected: only derived networks can access it
18:41:36 <ehird`> piped through strings? :P
18:41:52 <oerjan> freenode is a bit semi-private, isn't it
18:41:56 <ais523> ehird`: it didn't, it just worked on the basis that "Hello world.\n" was likely to be in there somewhere
18:43:03 <GregorR> ehird`: Platform = arch + OS X_X
18:43:15 <oerjan> it's governed by a non-profit organization, or something, isn't it
18:43:18 <ehird`> i live in a little hole
18:43:30 <ehird`> oerjan: i don't think semi-private means that :P
18:43:37 <GregorR> So, ELKS? No, ELKS only works on 286, right?
18:43:37 <ehird`> although admittedly i may be wrong having no idea what it means
18:43:38 <ais523> well, I run GNU/Windows on something x86-compatible but much more modern
18:43:54 <ais523> sort of like GNU/Linux, only Windows is the kernel and I run the GNU utilities on top of that
18:44:03 <Sgeo> It means that it's not like we'll kick people out, but we don't give the address to random people.. well, mostly
18:44:07 <ehird`> ais523: i must question though why you use windows
18:44:16 <Sgeo> ihope is on Sine
18:44:22 <ehird`> Sgeo: random as in random.choice(people)?
18:44:22 <ais523> other people who want to use Windows, and me using the same computer
18:44:26 <GregorR> ais523, ehird`: All the driver support, less of the garbager.
18:44:35 <asiekierka> You still aren't suprised i'm not spamming the channel?
18:44:46 <ehird`> asiekierka: sorry, are we meant to comment on that?
18:44:51 <ais523> asiekierka: it's usual for IRC users to be inactive for a while
18:45:07 <ais523> except for me, but that's for somewhat confusing reasons
18:45:26 <ais523> that are the same reasons why I'm using a client so old that I can't figure out how to get it to auto-authenticate or keep logs
18:45:35 <oerjan> ehird`: i guess it's a continuous scale from completely closed network to complete anarchy
18:45:37 <ais523> GregorR: that's the second time I've been accused of being a bot
18:45:58 <ais523> ehird`: a really old version of ChatZilla
18:46:47 <ais523> navigator.userAgent gives me Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20040414, so it's a relatively recent build, but still too old
18:47:04 <ais523> that is, 2004 isn't really 'relatively recent' in computer terms nowadays
18:47:08 <ais523> although I suppose it was in 2004
18:47:54 <oerjan> once upon a time, the pyramids were relatively recent
18:48:14 -!- ehird` has quit ("K-Lined by peer").
18:48:35 -!- ehird` has joined.
18:49:17 <ais523> what on earth does that quit message mean? I suppose that as it's in quotes, it might just be ehird` messing around, but it does look concerning
18:49:25 <ehird`> just me messing around
18:49:33 <ehird`> you're the second person to comment about it in here
18:49:57 <GregorR> And this is the second time I've commented that FreeNode makes user quit messages easily distinguishable from system quit messages :P
18:52:10 -!- ehird[erc] has left (?).
18:52:12 -!- ehird[rcirc] has left (?).
18:52:40 <ehird`> ais523: can you read Scheme? :P
18:53:45 <ehird`> immediately after lookign at it
18:54:21 <ais523> I hope you get it working
18:58:28 <ais523> asiekierka: see if you can make a negative-length quine
18:58:39 <ais523> you first have to invent a language for which the concept makes sense
18:58:54 <ais523> probably some extension to TURKEY BOMB
18:59:21 <ais523> which is a great language that I actually tried to implement at one point, but got confused
18:59:46 <ais523> I think with suitable choices for the parts of the language that are vaguely specifed it may be Turing-complete
18:59:59 <asiekierka> Every character you type is treated as a random command.
19:00:11 <asiekierka> so "h" can be once push, once add, once pop, once delete...
19:00:22 <ehird`> turkey bomb isn't TC, ais523
19:00:28 <ehird`> for example the turkey bomb instruction :P
19:00:32 <ais523> ehird`: how do you know?
19:00:53 <asiekierka> I'll call it YOUR ESOTERIC LANGUAGE OF THE DAY, MAN.
19:01:13 <ais523> you can use multiple people playing it to form some sort of infinite loop with skips forwards and backwards
19:01:30 <ais523> after all, a couple of the commands mention unusual things happening to the TURKEY BOMB itself
19:01:39 <asiekierka> - Every line must end with ", man." (without the quotes)
19:01:39 <asiekierka> - every char is treated as a random command.
19:02:35 <ais523> I think it works if the operation that involves three-trits is greater-than on two of them picked at random, with short-circuiting from left to write
19:03:22 <ais523> because the short-circuiting lets you do conditional jumps
19:04:13 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: correct
19:04:19 <ais523> I noticed. We had to use peyavi instead for the two-bot infinite loop that we set up earlier
19:04:33 <ais523> I suppose that if you persuade it to join a three-bot infinite loop might be possible
19:04:35 <ehird`> but his underload interp is getting rewritten in scheme
19:04:58 <ais523> ('it' in my last comment refers to bsmnt_bot. That's the problem with asynchronous communication.)
19:05:05 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
19:05:25 <ais523> wow, I just need to figure out what the relevant three-bot code would be
19:05:47 <ais523> Doing it with ~exec is very hard due to the way Python treats quotation marks
19:06:01 <ehird`> ais523: you can add handlers with bsmnt_bot
19:06:12 <ais523> ehird`: I know, that's how I did it last time
19:09:44 <ehird`> not once have i figured out
19:09:45 <oklopol> Sgeo: according to your experiments with norns, you must be pleased to hear the fly has grown tired of living and now lies on its back on the floor, occasionally buzzing a bit
19:09:56 <ehird`> how to copy text from emacs into another app
19:09:59 <ehird`> i can do it within emacs
19:10:03 <ehird`> but i do not know how to copy it out
19:11:04 <ais523> ehird`: that tends to be quite annoying as it depends on your OS. Normally, if you copy text to the kill ring with M-w, it also copies it to your OS's clipboard, but in my experience it tends to usually get this wrong
19:11:18 <ehird`> yeah, it doesn't work for me
19:11:34 <ehird`> ;The object (#\( #\S #\S #\a #\: . #\)), passed as an argument to append, is not a list.
19:11:38 <ehird`> just need to use middle-click
19:11:41 <ehird`> instead of shift-insert or ctrl-v
19:11:46 <ehird`> that's the bug i'm tackling now :P
19:12:27 <ehird`> debugging functional programs in scheme is a bitch.
19:18:06 -!- v1nc3L has joined.
19:20:53 <ais523> ~exec sys.stdout("test")
19:21:01 -!- asiekierka has quit.
19:21:39 <ais523> !ul ((**ul )Sa(~cat !ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
19:21:41 <EgoBot> **ul (~cat !ul ((**ul )Sa(~cat !ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^)S
19:21:41 <peyavi> ~cat !ul ((**ul )Sa(~cat !ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
19:21:42 <bsmnt_bot> !ul ((**ul )Sa(~cat !ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
19:21:45 <EgoBot> **ul (~cat !ul ((**ul )Sa(~cat !ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^)S
19:21:45 <peyavi> ~cat !ul ((**ul )Sa(~cat !ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
19:21:46 <bsmnt_bot> !ul ((**ul )Sa(~cat !ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
19:21:49 <EgoBot> **ul (~cat !ul ((**ul )Sa(~cat !ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^)S
19:21:49 <peyavi> ~cat !ul ((**ul )Sa(~cat !ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
19:21:50 <bsmnt_bot> !ul ((**ul )Sa(~cat !ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
19:21:53 <EgoBot> **ul (~cat !ul ((**ul )Sa(~cat !ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^)S
19:21:54 <peyavi> ~cat !ul ((**ul )Sa(~cat !ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
19:21:54 <bsmnt_bot> !ul ((**ul )Sa(~cat !ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
19:21:57 <EgoBot> **ul (~cat !ul ((**ul )Sa(~cat !ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^)S
19:21:58 <peyavi> ~cat !ul ((**ul )Sa(~cat !ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
19:21:58 <bsmnt_bot> !ul ((**ul )Sa(~cat !ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
19:22:01 <EgoBot> **ul (~cat !ul ((**ul )Sa(~cat !ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^)S
19:22:01 <peyavi> ~cat !ul ((**ul )Sa(~cat !ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
19:22:02 <bsmnt_bot> !ul ((**ul )Sa(~cat !ul )~*(:^)*aS(S)S):^
19:22:09 <ehird`> now make it peer to peer
19:22:16 <ehird`> each part, when spawned, can continue with at least one partner
19:22:23 <ehird`> but does not require the whole chain to be active
19:22:33 <oklopol> make it always print a command for both the other bots...
19:22:46 <ais523> I don't think that's possible unless you get the bots to output two commands each
19:22:56 <ais523> and that would involve embedding newlines in the input to the bots
19:23:09 <ais523> let's just reinstall the Underload daemon, anyway (thanks Keymaker!)
19:23:16 <ais523> !daemon ul bf http://pastebin.ca/raw/367774
19:23:19 <oklopol> i mean, is that not possible?
19:23:35 <ehird`> ais523: meh you can figure out a way! ;)
19:23:42 <ehird`> next up: distributed computing, via irc bots
19:23:51 -!- v1nc3L has left (?).
19:24:03 <ais523> the problem is that the three bots all use different identifying characters so that each bot would have to send out two commands, one for each other bot
19:24:19 <ais523> but the only way to say that in Underload is to put a literal newline in the string, so you couldn't send the info over IRC anyway
19:24:49 <oklopol> you need to include PRIVMSG #esoteric :
19:25:44 <oklopol> although any decent bot will either 1. ignore newlines 2. make newlines illegal 3. split by newlines and print each separately
19:25:48 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: zomg you deleted the BF interpreter
19:26:07 <oklopol> 3rd is what for example ololobot does, and i guess EgoBot too
19:26:26 <oklopol> !bf ++++++++++>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.<.>.
19:26:53 <GregorR> Well, it doesn't flood channels.
19:26:57 <GregorR> If you ask it to, it'll flood you ^^
19:27:06 <oklopol> shouldn't it send that to my pric?
19:27:26 <GregorR> !bf ++++++++++>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.<.>.
19:27:43 <GregorR> EgoBot must not be auth'd.
19:27:45 <oklopol> then the bot isn't identified
19:28:27 <oklopol> i need to go again for a bit -<
19:28:40 <GregorR> !bf ++++++++++>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.<.>.
19:37:01 * oerjan suddenly imagines running Chef through a Swedish Chef generator
19:37:36 <ais523> ~bf ,[.,]!Got this working again
19:38:10 <ais523> now all we need is a Python Underload interpreter so that three bots can do it at once...
19:40:16 <oerjan> nah, just filter the bf underload interpreter through bsmnt_bot's python bf interpreter
19:41:26 <ais523> I thought of that, but the logistics of trying to retype the whole thing through IRC (even with the benefit of copy/paste) are staggering
19:41:33 <peyavi> sometimes the way I'm proposing will make a pastebin ?
19:41:41 <peyavi> The developers Brazilians are very impatient
19:41:44 <peyavi> Mark761966: hidden files
19:41:53 <ais523> what exactly is it doing?
19:41:59 <ehird`> ais523: it's a markov chain
19:42:03 <peyavi> rnenjoy, and also, a rule that the blocks follow
19:42:14 <ais523> that's reasonably obvious, but what is it based on?
19:42:33 <ehird`> everything it hears in irc (its in here, ##moosanity, and #php and #ubuntu for idiot-watching)
19:42:43 <peyavi> Creed now thats totally subjective try them and see if it still shows the loading progress bar. on the Medibuntu servers is "not evaluating $file correctly
19:42:51 <oerjan> ais523: it is possibly to get a network connection from bsmnt_bot, i think
19:43:02 <ehird`> "Creed now thats totally subjective try them and see if it still shows the loading progress bar." that's pretty good
19:43:26 <ehird`> ~exec self.msg("#esoteric",dir(self))
19:43:27 <bsmnt_bot> AttributeError: IRCbot instance has no attribute 'msg'
19:43:38 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :" + repr(dir(self)))
19:43:38 <bsmnt_bot> ['COMMAND_CHAR', 'THREADING', '__doc__', '__init__', '__module__', 'ban', 'ban_file', 'banlist', 'bf3', 'bf4', 'chan', 'commands_running', 'commands_running_lock', 'connect', 'connected', 'disconnect', 'do_callbacks', 'do_ctcp', 'do_exec', 'do_kill', 'do_ps', 'do_quit', 'do_raw', 'error_in_chan', 'errorchan', 'exec_execer', 'get_message', 'handle_callback', 'host', 'ident', 'listen', 'load_callbacks', 'locals', 'message_re', 'nick', 'o
19:43:51 <ais523> ~exec sys.stdout("This is how you print things.")
19:44:02 <bsmnt_bot> AttributeError: IRCbot instance has no attribute 'callbacks'
19:44:18 <ehird`> ~exec sys.stdout(dir(self))
19:44:19 <bsmnt_bot> ['COMMAND_CHAR', 'THREADING', '__doc__', '__init__', '__module__', 'ban', 'ban_file', 'banlist', 'bf3', 'bf4', 'chan', 'commands_running', 'commands_running_lock', 'connect', 'connected', 'disconnect', 'do_callbacks', 'do_ctcp', 'do_exec', 'do_kill', 'do_ps', 'do_quit', 'do_raw', 'error_in_chan', 'errorchan', 'exec_execer', 'get_message', 'handle_callback', 'host', 'ident'
19:44:19 <bsmnt_bot> , 'listen', 'load_callbacks', 'locals', 'message_re', 'nick', 'owner', 'pong', 'port', 'print_callbacks', 'raw', 'raw_regex_queue', 'read_bans', 'realname', 'register_raw', 'save_callbacks', 'socket', 'sockfile', 'unban', 'verbose', 'write_bans']
19:44:29 <ehird`> ~exec self.print_callbacks()
19:44:53 <ehird`> Essentially i'm trying to find the bf callback.
19:45:02 <ehird`> ~exec print self.raw_regex_queue
19:45:07 <ehird`> ~exec print >>sys,stdout, self.raw_regex_queue
19:45:07 <bsmnt_bot> NameError: name 'stdout' is not defined
19:45:10 <ehird`> ~exec print >>sys.stdout, self.raw_regex_queue
19:45:10 <bsmnt_bot> [(<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0xb7d4abf0>, <bound method IRCbot.pong of <__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xb7cd56ac>>), (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80e0d10>, <bound method IRCbot.do_quit of <__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xb7cd56ac>>), (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80dc640>, <bound method IRCbot.do_raw of <__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xb7cd56ac>>), (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object
19:45:15 <bsmnt_bot> at 0x80dc440>, <bound method IRCbot.do_ctcp of <__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xb7cd56ac>>), (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80dcab0>, <bound method IRCbot.do_exec of <__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xb7cd56ac>>), (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80dcfa0>, <bound method IRCbot.do_exec of <__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xb7cd56ac>>), (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80b91c0>, <bound me
19:45:20 <bsmnt_bot> thod IRCbot.do_ps of <__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xb7cd56ac>>), (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80dd278>, <bound method IRCbot.do_kill of <__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xb7cd56ac>>), (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80e2d00>, <function <lambda> at 0xb7cd4764>), (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80b9400>, <function <lambda> at 0xb7cd8dbc>), (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80de898>
19:45:25 <bsmnt_bot> , <function bfarg at 0xb7cd8cdc>)]
19:45:31 <bsmnt_bot> NameError: name 'bfarg' is not defined
19:45:38 <ais523> it's the top pattern object in the raw_regex_queue
19:45:38 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw_regex_queue[-1]
19:45:48 <ehird`> ~exec print >>sys.stdout, self.raw_regex_queue[-1]
19:45:49 <bsmnt_bot> (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80de898>, <function bfarg at 0xb7cd8cdc>)
19:45:51 <ehird`> ~exec print >>sys.stdout, self.raw_regex_queue[-1][1]
19:45:56 <ehird`> ~exec print >>sys.stdout, self.raw_regex_queue[-1][1]("+.")
19:45:57 <bsmnt_bot> TypeError: bfarg() takes exactly 2 arguments (1 given)
19:46:07 <ehird`> ~exec print >>sys.stdout, self.raw_regex_queue[-1][1].f_code
19:46:07 <bsmnt_bot> AttributeError: 'function' object has no attribute 'f_code'
19:46:20 <ais523> if you want to see the source:
19:46:33 <ais523> ~sys.stdout(repr(self.bf3+self.bf4))
19:46:53 <ais523> ~exec sys.stdout(repr(self.bf3+self.bf4))
19:46:54 <bsmnt_bot> "def bfarg(x,y):\n p=y.group(2)\n a=y.group(3)+unichr(0)\n o=''\n p=p+'!'\n t=[0]*30000\n i=0\n l=0\n while p[i]!='!':\n if p[i]=='[' and t[l]==0:\n c=1\n while c>0:\n i=i+1\n if p[i]=='[': c=c+1\n if p[i]==']': c=c-1\n if p[i]==']' and t[l]!=0:\n c=1\n while c>0:\n i=i-1\n if p[i]==']': c=c+1\n if p[i]=='[': c=c-1\n if p[i]=='+': t[l]=t[l]+1\n
19:46:54 <bsmnt_bot> if p[i]=='-': t[l]=t[l]-1\n if p[i]=='<': l=l-1\n if p[i]=='>': l=l+1\n if p[i]=='.': o=o+unichr(t[l])\n if p[i]==',':\n t[l]=ord(a[0])\n a=a[1:]\n i=i+1\n sys.stdout(o)\nself.register_raw(r'\\S+ PRIVMSG (\\S+) :~bf ([^!]*)!?(.*)',bfarg)"
19:47:28 <ais523> x is ignored. y is a regex whose second and third groups give the program and input, respectively
19:47:44 <ehird`> in python how would i construct one of those regexps?
19:47:44 <ais523> so that bfarg is an appropriate raw_regex_queue callback
19:48:19 <ais523> r"\S+ PRIVMSG (\S+) :~bf ([^!]*)!?(.*)"
19:48:29 <ais523> is the regex that I used (retyped, so I may have typoed)
19:48:39 <ais523> it just matches raw IRC data
19:48:58 <ais523> bfarg wasn't really designed with being called from anything else in mind
19:49:20 <ais523> but you could just concatenate a string with ! in between, match a regex against it somehow, and then use that as bfarg input
19:49:24 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:49:47 <ehird`> is that you just use the http functions of python
19:49:55 <ehird`> define a nice handler for it
19:50:58 <ais523> I don't actually know Python. That BF interpreter was my first program. After all, BF interpreters are easy to write, right?
19:52:53 <ehird`> what's the bash way to get an absolute path given a relative path
19:52:57 <ehird`> (assumed relative to current directory?)
19:54:33 <ais523> you could do /dev/env/pwd/path, but that's cheating
19:55:11 <GregorR> ehird`: What I always do is: OLDPWD="$PWD" ; cd "$SOMEPATH" ; FULLPATH="$PWD" ; cd "$OLDPWD"
19:55:18 <GregorR> oerjan: That's bad if it actually is a full path.
19:55:29 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined.
19:55:34 <GregorR> (Presumably one would want to accept either)
19:55:36 <ehird`> GregorR: OK, the Ruby GUI toolkit 'Shoes' needs to be run in its own directory
19:55:40 <ehird`> I'm writing a wrapper function around it
19:55:52 <ehird`> but i ofc want to specify relative paths (and possibly absolute ones)
19:55:58 <ehird`> How would I write the func with your way?
19:56:08 <GregorR> Well, pushd takes relative paths anyway ...
19:56:33 <GregorR> Uh, that's not a relative path.
19:56:35 <ehird`> BLAH needs to be absolute of course
19:56:48 <ehird`> shoes() { pushd /shoes/dir; ./shoes BLAH; popd }
19:56:57 <ehird`> since i may call "shoes" in a directory with a relative path
19:57:27 <GregorR> I think my trick is right.
19:57:50 <GregorR> When you're in the directory it's relative to, just pushd to it and then save your $PWD
19:57:50 <ehird`> I don't see how it would work.
19:58:02 <ehird`> shoes /an/absolute/path
19:58:19 <GregorR> pushd /an/absolute/path pushes to that absolute path.
19:58:42 <ehird`> I do pushd /path/to/shoes
19:58:59 * GregorR bashes his head into the wall.
19:59:13 <GregorR> BEFORE changing the directory at all
19:59:33 <GregorR> Wait, are you saying you pushd /relative/path/that/starts/with/a/slash?
20:01:23 <GregorR> I can only reiterate, because I know for a fact that my method works: Before you've changed the directory at all, pushd to your path. Whether it's relative or absolute, you'll end up in the right place. Then just store $PWD and popd, and you're golden.
20:01:39 <ehird`> I am not pushd'ing to any user defined path.
20:01:47 <ehird`> the app "shoes" must be started from /path/to/shoes
20:01:58 <ehird`> I want an alias "notshoes" so I can do "notshoes file-in-current-dir"
20:02:03 <ehird`> notshoes will "pushd /path/to/shoes"
20:02:12 <ehird`> but, when i run shoes, it will obviously need an absolute path
20:02:16 <ehird`> I am wondering how to calculate it.
20:02:22 <ehird`> And, I cannot do $PWD/$1 before hand,
20:02:27 <ehird`> because I may do "notshoes /abs/path"
20:02:34 <GregorR> That's exactly what my method describes.
20:02:58 <GregorR> (Mind, I didn't realize you were talking about a file, so you'd need e.g. pushd `dirname $foo` etc, but otherwise it's the same)
20:03:46 <ehird`> I don't. ever. pushd. with. a. variable.
20:04:03 <ais523> this is one advantage that Emacs has over bash in processing paths
20:04:30 <ais523> ~msg #esoteric // or /~ anywhere in the directory rename resets to the root or the home directory respectively
20:05:03 <ais523> so that $PWD/$1 would actually work if emacs supported dollar-notation
20:05:25 <GregorR> ehird`: I know you don't. You SHOULD, to get the information you need X_X
20:05:44 <ehird`> GregorR: write me "notshoes", because i don't think you know what i'm trying to make it do
20:06:14 * ais523 is annoyed with themself for messing up the syntax for sending a message starting with /
20:06:55 <GregorR> ehird`: http://pastebin.ca/792890
20:08:35 <ehird`> that leaves me in the dir of shoes
20:08:52 <ehird`> also, function!=bash script
20:09:18 -!- peyavi has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:09:26 <GregorR> There is no function here ...
20:09:36 <GregorR> And I thought the whole idea was that you needed to run shoes from its own dir?
20:10:12 <ehird`> i /want/ a function, is what i mean
20:10:16 <ehird`> but after running shoes
20:10:20 <ehird`> i get dumped into shoes' dir
20:10:31 <GregorR> No you don't, that's not how scripts work.
20:10:47 <GregorR> It's easy enough to put that in a function, there's nothing non-function-specific about that code.
20:11:09 <ehird`> but bah i've got it working
20:15:57 -!- ais523 has quit.
20:37:07 <oerjan> <GregorR> I'm sure the keyword "aromabic" will help :P (/me hunts)
20:37:18 <oerjan> actually it is Arombiac
20:37:27 <oerjan> although that doesn't show up either
20:40:18 <oerjan> no idea why it isn't in the tunes.org logs
20:52:46 <GregorR> ehird`: I'd love to see what your method is.
20:55:01 <ehird`> it doesn't support absolute paths.
20:55:20 <bsmntbombdood> i was watching some old people talk about sex on pbs
20:55:36 <GregorR> OK, so my method, which supports both relative and absolute paths, is unacceptable because?
20:55:57 <bsmntbombdood> "we see a strong relationship between overall health and sexual health"
20:56:07 <bsmntbombdood> "lubrication can help when vaginal dryness is an issue"
20:56:25 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: I care so little I can't even explain it.
20:57:02 * oerjan hands GregorR a microscope
20:57:29 <GregorR> I hope this is an electron microscope.
20:57:38 <ehird`> GregorR: wait no it is your method
20:57:49 <GregorR> ... ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh kay :P
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20:59:47 <ehird`> pushd "`dirname $1`" > /dev/null
20:59:47 <ehird`> FULLNAME="$PWD/`basename $1`"
20:59:47 <ehird`> pushd ~/shoes/dist > /dev/null
21:00:13 <GregorR> Well, my work here is done.
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21:24:29 <GregorR> You see, what graue and ehird` have done here is made a strong statement on the true, underlying uncertainty and doubt of life. It's like they've said, "World, I have given up, I accept the fear and emptiness of life." It's a truly poetic statement.
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21:28:04 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAA </Weltscmertz>
21:30:10 * oerjan never got to the accepting part
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