00:01:58 <pikhq> I suggest you worship before the Shrine to Gregor.
00:11:53 * GregorR 's eyes glow.
00:12:36 * ehird` worships to GregorR with his above question
00:12:53 <oerjan> if you ask pikhq you will just end up with tcl syntax :)
00:13:22 <GregorR> No, I don't have suggestions :P
00:13:24 <GregorR> EVAR
00:13:30 <ehird`> =(
00:13:33 <ehird`> oerjan: heh
00:13:52 * GregorR disappears again.
00:14:16 <pikhq> oerjan: The Tcl syntax for PEBBLE is *ease of implementation*.
00:14:27 <pikhq> s/is/is\ for/
00:14:32 <ehird`> pikhq: WHat's your perfect PEBBLE syntax?
00:14:33 <ehird`> :P
00:14:38 <ehird`> regardless of ease
00:14:42 <ehird`> for implenntation
00:15:25 <pikhq> I'd probably go for something sexpy.
00:15:41 <bsmntbom1dood> wooooooo
00:15:59 <ehird`> pikhq: Um, s-exps are basically as easy as Tcl-style to implement
00:16:11 <pikhq> ehird`: Not really.
00:16:14 <bsmntbom1dood> no, because tcl parses tcl natively
00:16:20 <pikhq> My parser: [source foo.tcl]
00:16:25 <pikhq> ;)
00:16:41 <ehird`> wait, pebble actually parses through tcl?
00:16:44 <ehird`> euuuurgh
00:17:04 <pikhq> PEBBLE is 100% well-formed Tcl.
00:17:18 <ehird`> :X
00:17:27 <ehird`> ok, what's your perfect, non-hijacking syntax for pebble
00:17:27 <ehird`> :P
00:17:33 <ehird`> i.e. platonic ideal, with no boundries
00:17:43 <pikhq> No boundaries?
00:17:53 <ehird`> depends on what you are about to say...
00:18:27 <pikhq> None; I would make PEBBLE read your mind for each bit of code. :p
00:18:37 <ehird`> syntax that actually involves syntax
00:18:41 <ehird`> in a file, on disk
00:18:43 <pikhq> Tricky.
00:18:55 <pikhq> Probably sexpoid, but I dunno.
00:19:11 <pikhq> A *good* syntax is fairly tricky to devise.
00:19:19 <ehird`> sexpoid = plain sexps or something more
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00:22:10 <ehird`> pikhq: ?
00:22:20 <pikhq> Yes.
00:22:26 <ehird`> whihc
00:22:29 <ehird`> which
00:22:31 <pikhq> Yes.
00:22:39 <ehird`> plain sexps?
00:22:42 <bsmntbom1dood> hrr hrr not funny
00:23:00 <ehird`> bsmntbom1dood: yeah, X or Y doesn't return a boolean indiscriminately in ANY reasonable language
00:23:02 <pikhq> (plain sexp || something more) == 1
00:23:05 <ehird`> it returns either X or Y
00:23:11 <ehird`> nuh-huh, pikhq
00:23:18 <bsmntbom1dood> english isn't reasonable
00:23:25 <ehird`> (plain sexp || something more) == plain sexp IF plain sexp ELSE something more
00:23:33 <ehird`> C does that, for one
00:23:37 <ehird`> also every other reasonable language ever
00:25:04 <pikhq> Abuh?
00:25:43 <ehird`> pikhq: Abuh what
00:25:49 <bsmntbom1dood> abu graib
00:26:14 <pikhq> (plain sexp || something more) returns either 1 or 0. I declare that it is 1.
00:26:20 <ehird`> no
00:26:21 <ehird`> you are wrong
00:26:26 <ehird`> bsmntbom1dood: back me up here ;)
00:26:27 <bsmntbom1dood> it's not C
00:26:29 <bsmntbom1dood> it's english
00:26:31 <ehird`> right
00:26:38 <ehird`> but in english it commonly means the same thing
00:26:44 <ehird`> and programming languages - here implied by || - agree with me
00:26:50 <bsmntbom1dood> and in english, "plain sexp or something else" isn't boolean
00:26:55 <ehird`> exactly
00:27:11 <bsmntbom1dood> it doesn't matter what esr told you
00:27:32 <ehird`> if it has esr in it - it doesn't matter, full stop
00:27:33 <ehird`> :-)
00:28:05 <pikhq> Anyways, you meant either plain sexp or something else. . . And I'm not sure which one yet.
00:28:37 <ehird`> i don't know much about pebble
00:28:53 <ehird`> give me a quick overview of the core commands and semantics will you? i'd like to dabble in it sometime
00:29:33 <pikhq> @ var ?location?
00:30:00 <ehird`> that's... not helpful
00:30:01 <pikhq> Declare a variable. . . If you specifiy a location, that's where it will be in Brainfuck memory.
00:30:01 <ehird`> :-)
00:30:07 <ehird`> ?? means optional right?
00:30:10 <pikhq> Yeah.
00:30:14 <ehird`> OK
00:30:37 * pikhq groans a bit at the next. . . Why the hell isn't this + and -?
00:30:42 <pikhq> add var number
00:30:46 <pikhq> subtract var number
00:31:09 <pikhq> Add or subtract, from var, number.
00:31:18 <pikhq> while var {code}
00:31:30 <ehird`> wait! stop! {...} is string right
00:31:41 <pikhq> Basically.
00:32:01 <ehird`> ok
00:32:02 <pikhq> in var
00:32:04 <pikhq> out var
00:32:07 <ehird`> wait wait
00:32:11 <ehird`> explain while's semantics
00:32:20 <pikhq> while(var!=0){code}
00:32:42 <ehird`> i mean in brainfuck :-)
00:32:52 <pikhq> goto var[code goto var]
00:33:11 <ehird`> ok
00:33:40 <pikhq> right number: just ">" number amount of times. . .
00:33:43 <pikhq> left number: same.
00:33:54 <ehird`> whats in/out var
00:34:00 <pikhq> at var: tell the compiler that the current location is var.
00:34:06 <pikhq> in var: ,
00:34:08 <pikhq> out var: .
00:34:17 <ehird`> OK
00:34:37 <pikhq> set var number: set var to number.
00:35:02 <pikhq> macro name {input-args} {output-args} {temp-args} {code}
00:35:18 <pikhq> That'll be called as "name input-args > output-args : temp-args".
00:35:27 <ehird`> WOW okay this needs more explanation (macro)
00:36:10 <pikhq> Hmm.
00:36:29 <pikhq> Let's do set as a macro for demonstration.
00:37:03 <pikhq> macro set {var num} {} {} {
00:37:12 <pikhq>   while var {subtract var 1}
00:37:17 <pikhq>   add var num
00:37:18 <pikhq> }
00:37:26 <ehird`> that's a bad way to do set, but hehe
00:37:26 <ehird`> ok
00:37:32 <ehird`> so, how is that stored/called
00:37:54 <pikhq> You'd just call *that* as "set foo bar".
00:38:04 <ehird`> right
00:38:06 <ehird`> i mean internally
00:38:09 <ehird`> what would set foo bar compile to
00:38:28 <pikhq> Let's say you've got a variable foo at location 5. . .
00:38:52 <pikhq> "set foo 5" would compile to the following (assuming we're at location 0):
00:38:59 <pikhq> >>>>>[-]+++++
00:39:03 <ehird`> ah, ok
00:39:11 <ehird`> what do output-args and temp-args do???
00:39:24 <pikhq> Allow for syntactic sugar in some of the more complex macros.
00:39:30 <ehird`> explain
00:39:46 <pikhq> "addvar foo > bar : temp1" is a bit simpler to read than "addvar foo bar temp1".
00:40:01 <ehird`> but what does it do
00:40:20 <pikhq> Those are just more arguments. . .
00:40:48 <ehird`> ah
00:40:55 <ehird`> so output-args and temp-args are just normal args
00:41:02 <ehird`> and the > and : just seperate them
00:41:04 <pikhq> Yeah.
00:41:15 <ehird`> addvar foo > bar : temp1 "add foo to bar using temp1 as the tmp var"
00:41:23 <pikhq> *Exactly*.
00:41:41 <ehird`> wow
00:41:43 <ehird`> i'm 1337
00:41:44 <ehird`> :)
00:42:08 <pikhq> There's a bit more to the language than that, but that's the core of it.
00:42:16 <ehird`> bit more = ?
00:42:26 <ehird`> i'm pretty sure i've seen functions in pebble too
00:42:29 <ehird`> not just mcaros
00:42:30 <pikhq> Nope.
00:42:32 <pikhq> Only macros.
00:43:03 <ehird`> OK
00:43:29 <ehird`> macros cannot recurse correct
00:43:45 <pikhq> There's the source command, a couple of commands to make dealing with strings easier, some stuff to talk to the optimizing pass, and a *bunch* of stuff not needed unless you're trying to fiddle with the stdlib. . .
00:43:49 <pikhq> Correct.
00:44:26 <ehird`> is there native multiplication?
00:44:32 <pikhq> It's a macro in the stdlib.
00:45:36 <ehird`> OK
00:45:39 <ehird`> what is its syntac?
00:45:41 <ehird`> *syntax
00:45:53 <pikhq> mulvar a > b : temp1 temp2
00:46:19 <ehird`> it goes to b right?
00:46:27 <pikhq> Right.
00:49:35 <ehird`> http://pastebin.com/m10e58490 factorial
00:49:46 <ehird`> i should probably have res as an output argument
00:49:49 <ehird`> but, it's a minor change
00:49:57 <ehird`> fact a b == "b = a!"
00:50:16 <ehird`> is that right?
00:50:19 <ehird`> (vars default to 0 iirc)
00:50:21 <ehird`> err
00:50:23 <ehird`> i don't even need tmp
00:50:38 <ehird`> rm @ tmp, s/2,3/1,2
00:51:24 <ehird`> pikhq: is that right?
00:52:29 <ehird`> pikhq: i think it is, but im not sure
00:53:01 <pikhq> Lemme look.
00:53:14 <ehird`> ignore tmp :-) it's useless
00:53:28 <ehird`> and s/while tmp/while n
00:53:42 <ehird`> pikhq: http://pastebin.com/m8734736 updated
00:53:54 <pikhq> It'll work.
00:53:57 <GregorR> TODAY AND THE NOW IS SUPER DANCE EXPLOSION TIME
00:54:03 <pikhq> I'd take the temp variables as arguments, though.
00:54:05 <ehird`> ah
00:54:09 <ehird`> i just did that
00:54:09 <ehird`> haha
00:54:13 <ehird`> final version: http://pastebin.com/m8d6c22f
00:54:24 <ehird`> fact a > b : tmp1 tmp2 is "b = a!"
00:54:33 <ehird`> is that all right? :-)
00:54:42 <pikhq> Yup.
00:54:48 <pikhq> Hmm. Why set res 1?
00:54:53 <pikhq> . . . Never mind.
00:54:55 <pikhq> I'm stupid.
00:54:57 <ehird`> because 0 * n = 0
00:54:57 <ehird`> :P
00:55:05 <pikhq> That's exactly right.
00:55:25 <ehird`> OK
00:55:27 <ehird`> great
00:55:39 <ehird`> I'll code more PEBBLE tomorrow :-)
00:55:42 <pikhq> :)
00:55:53 <ehird`> hey, i mgiht write an EsoAPI (or similar) interface for it
00:55:56 <ehird`> bot written in pebble!
00:56:25 <pikhq> I planned the same for a while.
00:56:33 <pikhq> Right now, I'm waiting on PSOX. ;p
00:56:55 <ehird`> i don't like waiting :P
00:56:59 <ehird`> PSOX is overengineered anyway
00:57:12 <ehird`> (if Sgeo now says "Wait, what?" instead of ACTUALLY READING, please kill him for me)
00:57:17 <ehird`> byebye for today, see you tomorrow
00:59:11 <GregorR> I wonder if anybody makes a battery-powered USB device charger.
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01:03:16 <pikhq> It's called a laptop.
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01:10:44 <bsmntbom1dood> all those power-through-usb devices are dumb
01:11:09 <pikhq> And a violation of the USB spec besides.
01:11:59 <bsmntbom1dood> why have power if that's the case?
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01:16:26 <pikhq> The USB spec grants every device a *very small* amount of power, so that it can at least negotiate power needs. . .
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01:16:58 <pikhq> Most power-through-usb devices don't negotiate this; they merely go and take power from USB.
01:17:18 <pikhq> The worst part is, they usually try to take more power than the USB spec even *allows* any one device to have.
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01:55:38 <GregorR> Oh my GOD, people NOT COMPLYING TO A STANDARD? It's almost like we're in some filthy HUMAN society!
01:55:57 <pikhq> GregorR: It's just in bad taste.
01:56:48 <GregorR> If my video watch didn't charge from USB, that would be one more port on it. That's hard to swing.
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02:19:38 * bsmntbombdood lights his hand on fire
02:20:18 <pikhq> GregorR: Or it'd negotiate the power as needed by the USB spec.
02:20:38 <pikhq> (as well as a nice data channel)
02:20:40 <pikhq> ;)
02:21:51 <GregorR> For all I know, it does :P
02:22:02 <GregorR> And it does have a nice data channel.
02:22:08 <GregorR> For, y'know, transferring files.
02:35:56 <bsmntbombdood> did you get your watch?
02:49:21 * pikhq whistles innocently here, too
03:01:24 * Sgeo_ wonders if anyone uses BF-RLE
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03:19:53 <Sgeo_> Welcome back sp3tt
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05:06:27 <ihope> ais523's won a Wolfram research prize?
05:08:03 <pikhq> Yeah.
05:08:15 <ihope> Not the 2,3 Turing machine thing?
05:12:55 <ihope> Or yes?
05:16:50 <pikhq> Yes.
05:17:06 <ihope> Wow.
05:17:35 <pikhq> Well, it's not like we have stupid people in here.
05:23:17 <ihope> True.
05:24:50 * ihope skims the proof
05:32:02 * bsmntbom1dood skimmed the proof and quit after the first few words
05:32:47 <Sgeo_> What proof?
05:33:07 <bsmntbom1dood> the 2,3 turing machine completeness proof
05:35:03 <Sgeo_> What's it about, and where can I find it?
05:36:45 <ihope> http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solution_news.html
05:36:58 <bsmntbom1dood> wolfram proposed a 2,3 turing machine and offered $25k for a proof of (un)/completeness
05:38:47 <bsmntbom1dood> it would be cool to have a proof that it's the simplest utm
05:38:56 <ihope> Haven't all the simpler ones been tried?
05:39:19 <bsmntbom1dood> it might be there's another 2,3 one
05:39:31 <ihope> Oh, indeed.
05:42:22 <bsmntbom1dood> it's funny how people think that the machine is applicable
05:42:44 <bsmntbom1dood> "it could be implemented in a molecule", yeah, that's useful
05:43:07 <ihope> Seems a cellular automaton would be more useful for that.
05:43:24 <ihope> And we have plenty of simple cellular automata.
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05:48:55 <pikhq> It be cheese!
05:49:09 <cherez> Yar!
05:50:18 <ihope> Hi, cheese!
05:50:45 <ihope> And here's that USAMO one of my classmates took: http://www.mathlinks.ro/Forum/resources.php?c=182&cid=27&year=2007
05:51:10 <ihope> Or maybe it's just similar to it.
05:51:59 <ihope> No, that's probably the one. Seems that you should be able to make a primitive dinosaur of any size.
05:53:06 <pikhq> ihope: Obviously, a primitive dinosaur is 2007*2-1. . .
05:54:14 <ihope> You can have bigger primitive dinosaurs.
05:54:39 <ihope> Wait, at least 2007 cells...
05:54:40 <pikhq> Show me one larger dinosaur that is primitive.
05:54:47 <pikhq> Oh.
05:54:50 <pikhq> At least 2007 cells?
05:54:53 <pikhq> Misread that.
05:55:06 <pikhq> I thought it was "dinosaur has 2007 cells".
05:55:52 <pikhq> Anyways, yeah. Anything larger than 2007*2-1 is not primitive.
05:56:13 <ihope> Start with one square, then attach to each side a line of length 2006.
05:56:49 <ihope> You get a big cross with 2007*4 - 3 squares.
05:57:03 <ihope> Divide that into dinosaurs for me.
05:57:11 <pikhq> Clever.
05:57:18 <pikhq> And that question is deceptively subtle.
05:57:31 <pikhq> This is why I'm not in the math olympiad.
05:58:25 <ihope> The question is how to make that bigger.
05:58:38 <ihope> Or whether that's even possible.
06:00:10 * pikhq salutes whoever can prove that
06:00:21 <ihope> I'm pretty sure 2007*4 - 3 is the best, now.
06:01:37 <ihope> Suppose S is a dinosaur. S is primitive if and only if for all subdinosaurs of S, S minus that subdinosaur contains something that is not a dinosaur.
06:03:34 <ihope> Suppose T is a subdinosaur of S. If the union of T with all non-dinosaur fragments of S-T is a proper subdinosaur of S, then S is not primitive.
06:04:57 <bsmntbom1dood> esoteric programming, not esoteric paleantology...
06:07:14 <ihope> :-P
06:07:52 <ihope> Conjecture: all non-primitive dinosaurs can be divided into dinosaurs containing no loops.
06:08:03 <ihope> This should be easy to disprove, unfortunately.
06:09:37 <ihope> And if it can be proven, it's probably quite hard.
06:13:23 <ihope> Suppose T is a subdinosaur of S. If S is primitive, then no superdinosaur of the union of T with all non-dinosaur fragments of S - T is a proper subdinosaur of S.
06:14:34 <ihope> No, I want to go the other way. If for all subdinosaurs T of S, no superdinosaur of the union of T with all non-dinosaur fragments of S - T is a proper subdinosaur of S, then S is primitive.
06:16:05 <ihope> Maybe the problem IS going the other way.
06:16:48 <ihope> ...which is the first way.
06:18:18 <ihope> Now I'm too tired to understand what I've written, so I'll be going to bed immediately.
06:18:22 <pikhq> LMAO
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11:07:09 <oklopol> (bsmntbom1dood) and in english, "plain sexp or something else" isn't boolean <<< it's either boolean or either of those
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11:22:59 <oklopol> (ihope) Suppose S is a dinosaur. S is primitive if and only if for all subdinosaurs of S, S minus that subdinosaur contains something that is not a dinosaur. <<< er... don't think so, say you have a gazillion cells in a row, if you cut it in the middle, you get two dinosaurs, if you just cut one off one end, you get a dinosaur, and a non-dinosaur
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