2007-09-01: 00:01:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:03:31 * bsmntbombdood will have (hopefully cool) pictures soon 00:04:31 of what? 00:05:07 a drain 00:10:20 * oerjan has been trying to avoid jokes about bsmntbombdood going down the drain, to no avail 00:11:49 i'm impervious 00:12:12 http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/pic_1.jpg 00:12:49 http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/pic_2.jpg 00:15:39 http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/pic_3.jpg 00:16:53 who's that? 00:17:25 gah 00:17:30 i didn't mean to upload that one 00:17:57 he's a guy we went with 00:18:26 he looked a bit old to be in high school :) 00:20:45 -!- ehird` has quit. 00:21:44 * SimonRC fails to recall the language based on brownian motion 00:22:13 noit o'mnain worb? 00:22:53 pic_4.jpg, 5,6,7 00:22:57 I looked at that in a list, but rejected it 00:23:00 :-( 00:23:01 and 3 is now the one i wanted it to be 00:24:58 -!- ihope__ has joined. 00:33:54 why did you go down there? 00:34:58 for fun? 00:36:32 how did you get in there? 00:36:37 you can't do that round here 00:36:43 (they are all to small for a start) 00:36:46 the outfall 00:36:50 and too full of shit 00:37:07 storm sewer, not sanitary sewer 00:37:23 well there aren't any of those round here 00:37:42 how did you find the entrance in the end? 00:37:43 where are you? 00:37:51 uk 00:37:58 there's some FANTASTIC drains in london 00:38:09 not too near 00:38:17 and I suspect nottoo legal 00:38:34 like, ZOMG terrism 00:39:09 the uk has really lax trespassing laws doesn't it? 00:39:12 http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/hdr_pole_small.png 00:42:06 http://www.silentuk.com/ 00:42:08 ^^ 00:42:37 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:30:10 -!- ihope__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:41:19 zzzzzzzzzzzzzz 01:41:42 cccccccccccccc 02:17:09 xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 02:17:39 I'm guessing the next one is vvvvvvvvvvvvvv, followed by cccccccccccccc again. 02:17:49 Then bbbbbbbbbbbbbb. 02:21:01 no 02:42:09 Was xxxxxxxxxxxxxx supposed to be bbbbbbbbbbbbbb? 02:42:25 Followed my mmmmmmmmmmmmmm, followed by ..............? 02:43:11 * oerjan wishes to deny that he considered keyboard placement when selecting c 02:44:13 in fact unpronouncability was higher on the priority list 02:46:32 i recall discarding y,a, and m at least. the details are rather vague and were so already at the time. 02:52:04 Ah. 02:52:21 But yyyyyyyyyyyyyy is so unobviously pronounced. 02:52:36 Unless you pronounce it "Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!" 02:52:49 not to a norwegian :) 02:55:33 How would a Norwegian pronounce it? 03:03:30 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:14:05 front upper rounded with protruded lips 03:40:42 -!- ihope has quit ("Lost terminal"). 05:46:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 05:53:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:28:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 07:39:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Man who stand in frond of car is tired. Man who stand behind car is exhausted."). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:28:16 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 09:53:07 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:30:55 -!- ehird` has joined. 11:41:53 i think i will start on that optimizes-to-hell BF compiler i was going to work on 12:18:37 -!- jix_ has joined. 12:41:40 -!- sebbu has quit (Success). 12:51:12 -!- ehird` has quit ("Pong timeout"). 12:54:26 -!- sebbu has joined. 13:13:08 -!- ehird` has joined. 15:18:08 -!- importantshock_ has joined. 15:18:11 -!- importantshock_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:18:28 -!- importantshock has joined. 15:25:33 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:26:44 -!- Tritonio has joined. 15:52:25 -!- importantshock_ has joined. 16:04:53 -!- importantshock- has joined. 16:14:20 -!- importantshock-_ has joined. 16:16:08 -!- importantshock_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:53:30 -!- importantshock-- has joined. 17:00:10 -!- importantshock-- has quit. 17:00:10 -!- importantshock- has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:00:10 -!- importantshock-_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:00:10 -!- importantshock has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:00:19 -!- importantshock-- has joined. 17:00:54 -!- importantshock-- has changed nick to importantshock. 17:34:00 -!- importantshock has quit ("Leaving..."). 17:37:41 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 17:50:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:50:45 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:04:22 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:09:03 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:11:13 -!- jix_ has joined. 18:23:28 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:23:50 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 18:27:19 -!- Tritonio has joined. 18:41:59 -!- importantshock has joined. 18:43:04 howdy pikhq 18:43:48 o 19:12:07 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 19:16:38 -!- importantshock has quit ("Leaving..."). 19:40:35 -!- mordaunt has joined. 20:10:44 -!- mordaunt has left (?). 22:36:08 -!- clog has joined. 22:36:08 -!- clog has joined. 22:47:38 -!- importantshock has quit ("Leaving..."). 22:58:31 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:25:37 gimme a big math expression 23:25:37 ! 23:25:42 Huh? 23:25:57 !rndmath 23:25:59 Huh? 23:35:03 \exist \mathbf{N}: \varnothing \in \mathbf{N} \and (\forall x: x \in \mathbf{N} \implies x \cup \{x\} \in \mathbf{N}) 23:44:26 :< 23:44:31 i meant like 5+3! 23:44:43 no predicate logic or whaddyacallit 23:45:03 heh 23:45:04 why? 23:45:12 -!- ololobot has joined. 23:45:16 i wanna try that out 23:45:27 i don't know anything that does random expressions 23:45:28 i mean 23:45:31 generates them 23:45:42 and i just simply cannot make them manually 23:45:48 "just simply" 23:46:03 they always come out square, you know 23:46:44 >>> in-fi 5+6+7 23:46:44 5 + 6 + 7 23:46:52 infix -> finefix convertor 23:46:56 >>> in-fi 5+(6+7) 23:46:56 5 6 + + 7 23:47:13 my extension to infix 23:48:08 finefix? 23:48:09 haven't made a formal proof it's as strong as postfix, though i'm fairly sure it is, being conceptually pretty much the same thing... 23:48:14 my extension to infix. 23:48:29 because infix wasn't "nesting complete" 23:48:36 i don't know if there's a real term for that 23:48:43 but you can't do implicit nesting with it 23:48:55 huh? 23:49:07 5+(5+5), you cannot eliminate the parens 23:49:13 well in that case you can 23:49:15 and, i've just died many firey death's in google earth's flight simulator 23:49:16 but not generally 23:49:23 :D 23:49:29 i thought you can't die in that... 23:49:42 oh you can 23:49:48 cewl 23:49:55 guess i have to do >>> rand-expr 23:50:22 plus i could let you specify the objoken regexes and the funcoken regexes 23:50:29 also, i should stop using my own terms 23:50:46 objoken = token that's parsed as a value 23:50:56 i don't know the terms for anything thattish 23:51:05 since i haven't seen anything written about parsing really... 23:51:43 anyone made an irc server? 23:51:53 i thought i'd write one now 23:52:00 (a + b) * (x - y) * z + a*(x + t) 23:52:12 hmm... i'm fairly sure you can only do numbers :| 23:52:19 because of the regexes 23:52:27 i are not good pilot 23:52:40 >>> in-fi (1 + 2) * (3 - 4) * 5 + 1*(3 + 6) 23:52:41 1 + 2 3 * - 4 * 5 1 3 + * + 6 23:52:52 that's pretty... readable 23:52:59 D 23:52:59 :D 23:53:18 Looks like syntactic sugar around parens. 23:53:31 Or not? 23:53:44 well yes, but so are post-/prefix... 23:53:56 Hmm. What, exatly, *is* the syntax? 23:54:00 basically that's the idea. 23:54:44 hmm 23:54:53 finefix is based on infixifying postfix 23:54:56 It looks like some parts are postfix, some are infix. . . 23:55:05 Hmm. Impossible to parse? 23:55:10 no 23:55:15 stack-based parsing as in postficx 23:55:17 *postfix 23:55:28 i'll upload the "spec" soon 23:55:33 >> fi-in 1 + 2 3 * - 4 * 5 1 3 + * + 6 23:55:39 >>> fi-in 1 + 2 3 * - 4 * 5 1 3 + * + 6 23:55:45 * pikhq hopes you've bothered with that 23:55:53 Guess not. 23:56:04 the conversion is also based on postfix, just shift every sequence of funcokens left one step 23:56:16 funcoken = +, - etc 23:56:23 -!- ehird` has quit. 23:56:24 also, you have to reverse them 23:57:19 you can immediately have 4 variations of infix depending on whether to base around prefix or postfix and whether to reverse functions when you are "evaluating lazily"-ish 23:57:56 evaluating lazily = leaving something on the stack when encountering a token 23:58:18 infix without explicit nesting, normally parsed, never does that 23:58:26 which is why it's not "nesting complete" 23:58:33 pikhq: also, the command is in-fi 23:58:34 wtf?!! 23:58:46 ah 23:58:46 i quat gearth and now it won't let me simulate flight again 23:58:47 oh 23:58:55 i haven't done the other way around yet 23:59:00 >>> in-po 23:59:02 >>> in-po 3+5 23:59:02 3 5 + 23:59:06 >>> in-pr 3+5 23:59:06 + 3 5 23:59:09 i did those 23:59:17 oklopol: I was trying to do the *inverse*. 23:59:38 but since i didn't make an actual good "fix" parsing library, those are all separate functions, which i had to make 2007-09-02: 00:00:08 making all in/po/pr/fi - conversions would be 12 00:00:26 and that's a bit tedious when i could just wrap over prefix and have one for each 00:00:58 also, i'm going to generalize fixes when i have the time, and just have >>> convert - 00:01:46 plus the regex thing for specifying what's ws and what's objoken/funcoken, but i said that already 00:01:59 anyway, did anyone ever make a server? 00:02:01 irc server 00:02:34 pikhq: i know what you were trying to do, but just right after i'd first misunderstood and already replied :) 00:03:39 the inverse is pretty trivial if you don't sweat about redundant parens 00:05:18 how the fuck can a simple server-client code be over 10 lines long o_O 00:05:25 isn't python supposed to be concise... 00:07:33 WHY can't i fly this plain 00:07:51 A simple Tcl server is 7 lines. . . 00:07:58 http://wiki.tcl.tk/15315 00:08:08 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 00:08:23 Just a proc to accept new connects, bind the proc to a socket, and start the event loop. Easy. 00:08:36 that's not irc... 00:08:50 no, but that's a server 00:09:09 and irc server code is long of course 00:09:12 And oklopol was talking about barebones "accepts connections and does something" servers. 00:09:31 Well, yeah. Just getting the IRC parser & lexer up is a nice chunk of code. 00:09:36 http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/200946 <<< like wtf is that 00:09:58 okay 00:10:02 Then you've got to get various parts of the server talking to each other, keeping state of which channels a person is in. . . Bit of a pain. 00:10:20 Wow, that's difficult. 00:10:29 that's not that long if you actually read it... but it's just server/client really isn't a task at all 00:10:40 it should be like WAITFOR 00:10:45 I *did* read it. 00:10:46 and CONNECT 00:11:07 Seems a bit excessive for to be Pythonic. 00:11:33 (admittedly, it's got a bit more than the Tcl example. . .) 00:11:58 i bet i could write an irc server in 100 lines in scchemes 00:12:06 Good luck with that. 00:12:16 I bet you'll need more for the IRC parser. 00:12:25 hmm... doubt that 00:12:30 split(" ") 00:12:32 :) 00:12:46 (i know, i know) 00:13:01 irc parsing in like 5 lines 00:25:36 kay... 6 lines and i have a connection 00:26:51 -!- ololobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:26:55 whoooops :D 00:27:25 -!- ololobot has joined. 00:36:34 bsmntbombdood: Dubious. 00:36:46 (well, unless you cheat, the Bison way. :p) 00:37:43 ? 00:38:11 Just specify the BNF syntax, and let some tool (or function) automagically parse from that. 00:38:26 irc syntax is regular 00:38:40 no need for bnf... 00:38:57 Oh, right. 01:50:28 -!- importantshock has joined. 01:58:31 yay i infinite looped my google earth plane 02:01:21 argh that's lame 02:01:42 it's says it can accelerate while going straight up, but it won't let me 02:18:51 and the maximum speed is only mach 1.3, not mach 2 02:28:49 wtf... in which case would print "m ========",m leave "m " out, like refuse to print the first characters of "m ========" 02:29:20 i'm doing a fucking string catenation and everything gets fucked up 02:29:51 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 02:29:56 howdy, everyone! 02:30:02 I'm back from vacation! 02:30:02 finally! 02:30:09 really? 02:30:13 I was missed? 02:30:42 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p513215652.txt <<< is there really something that can fuck up? 02:30:47 RodgerTheGreat: good to see you 02:32:17 the lines that should print "m = ..." fail to print "m " 02:32:33 and m=m+msg appends msg to the beginning of m 02:32:43 unless i'm really failing here, python is 02:33:19 The 3rd is the official PEBBLEversery. 02:35:52 cool 02:36:21 what are you going to do to celebrate, pikhq? 02:36:24 No idea. 02:36:32 Kinda nice that it's a Labor day, though. 02:37:19 yeah 02:37:31 almost as if everyone else is celebrating the anniversary with you 02:37:36 Hahah. 02:37:41 with a little denial, you can have a great time 02:37:42 Way to go, US! 02:40:26 YAY, just learned the important lesson of never putting chr(13) in a python string... 02:47:50 basically, i debugged a function that catenates 2 strings and prints them for 2 ohurs 02:47:52 *hours 02:48:53 well, a bit over an hour, but anyway 02:49:34 I've done things worse than that. Let me tell you a tale of a mergesort... 02:50:20 my function started from a randomized array, made a copy, did shit, and then copied the sorted data back and returned the array (reasons for why become complicated.) 02:50:34 anyway, I implement a mergesort... and it doesn't work 02:51:06 6 frustrating hours and at least 4 total rewrites later, I realize the problem wasn't with the SORT, I was copying back that wrong damn array! 02:54:20 the lesson: when you start over on something, make sure you're starting over on all the right parts 02:54:48 also, if I'd been smart enough to display more intermediate results on that one I might've figured it out faster 02:55:18 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:58:22 i had absolutely no idea where the problem could be... since i didn't know that chr(13) sometimes does carriage return and starts appending in the beginning of the string 02:58:37 "sometimes", because in my test runs, it doesn't do that 02:59:01 >>> print "oko"+chr(13)+"odo" 02:59:02 oko 02:59:27 but then again, why would it always work the same way 02:59:33 that'd be boring 03:00:57 also, i've been debugging for quite a while now just because i didn't bother to check what mirc SHOULD output @ connect 03:01:08 i just assumed it says something for every server reply 03:01:17 but nooooo, it just says for the first one 04:26:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:41:24 bsmntbombdood: i'm pretty sure you couldn't make an irc server that follows the spec completely in 100 lines 04:41:35 since there are over 100 lines of responces 04:41:43 hm... 04:42:21 depends on the language and the definition of a "line" 04:42:35 my irc server works now, though you can just join and change nick :P 04:42:44 and privmsg of course 04:42:59 RodgerTheGreat: usually line is 88 chars at most iirc 04:43:08 in shortness competitions 04:43:35 hm 04:43:48 RodgerTheGreat: connect to my ip and join #test :P 04:44:09 in a couple 20-line coding challenges, I've seen line defined as 255 characters or less 04:44:21 well that would be more sensible 04:44:31 i just recall it was 8x... 04:44:32 usually with a max of 15 keywords or something like that 04:44:39 maybe 80, like a terminal? 04:44:42 anyway, connect now! :) 04:44:44 yeah prolly 04:44:49 alright, gimme a sec 04:45:02 you can't even /part yet :D 04:45:24 and i'm not sure if all clients will even work... 04:45:27 -!- rutlov has joined. 04:46:12 normal IRC port? 04:46:16 6667 04:46:18 yeah 04:46:20 okles 04:50:27 -!- rutlov has left (?). 05:03:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia%2C_Pennsylvania <- interesting article 05:03:53 "There are no current plans to extinguish the fire, which is consuming an eight-mile seam containing enough coal to fuel it for 250 years." 05:05:03 good night, everyone 05:05:55 Bonan nokton. 05:19:59 Everyone complains about the weather, but nobody does anything about it. 05:20:12 All in favor of designed a weather control device? 05:56:08 yeah, we need more rain 05:56:56 i meant line as wherever you normally put lines 05:58:59 We need to steal _Back to the Future, Part II_'s entire tech tree. 05:59:34 arr, no movies downloaded yet 05:59:54 (if nothing else, I want a flux capacitor) 06:06:15 -!- importantshock has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:15:45 -!- jix_ has quit (Nick collision from services.). 06:16:03 -!- jix__ has joined. 06:27:43 Permission requested to change the topic in honor of PEBBLEversery on the 3rd. . . 06:37:32 PEBBLE! 06:38:47 * pikhq nods 07:54:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:20:58 -!- Tritonio has joined. 09:06:34 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:31:38 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 09:37:15 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 09:37:16 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 09:56:11 -!- RedDak has joined. 10:43:34 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:12:57 -!- ehird` has joined. 12:30:51 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:48:10 -!- Tritonio has joined. 13:09:17 this is not happening 13:09:25 my site i made in 10 minutes is #1 on digg. 13:09:29 http://digg.com/playable_web_games/The_Most_Pointless_Website_Ever 13:11:08 wtf 13:11:20 are there 100 hits a second :| 13:12:10 login and look at the counter 13:12:16 (registering is just user and pass) 13:12:20 you can see the highscores going up 13:12:20 its crazy 13:12:24 i have logged in 13:12:27 ok 13:12:29 well yeah 13:12:34 that's... unbelievable :| 13:12:36 there are like 50 people logged into the digg account 13:12:42 i have no idea how it got to #1 13:12:47 but shit, im #1 on digg's front page. 13:13:04 how did you get ppl to know that page existed? 13:13:18 it started off in an irc channel 13:13:25 then i posted it on the forum whose irc channel it is 13:13:28 then someone posted it to digg 13:13:34 then other people on the forum digged it, then random people digged it 13:13:41 then it exploded 13:13:46 and got on the frontpage at the top 13:13:46 :DD 13:14:01 and i am very noble, not adding ads or anything 13:14:19 i want to code that shoutbox but i can't because it freezes the interface 13:14:20 :( 13:14:23 and i doubt all of them will refresh 13:14:47 darn 13:16:43 omg 13:16:50 i refreshed and the page died :P 13:18:58 i fixed it 13:19:00 in about 2 seconds 13:22:04 does the shoutbox work? 13:22:06 i mean 13:22:09 should it work now 13:22:42 no 13:22:44 it will soon 13:51:55 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:56:27 oh dear 13:56:29 /b/ found it 13:57:05 .D 13:57:05 :D 14:03:51 -!- RedDak has joined. 14:20:37 160 or something per second 14:25:16 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:36:16 -!- importantshock has joined. 14:40:41 -!- importantshock_ has joined. 14:40:53 -!- importantshock has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:40:55 -!- importantshock_ has changed nick to importantshock. 14:57:40 whoops 14:57:48 'morning, folks 14:58:29 \hey RodgerTheGreat 15:16:45 pikhq: is there gonna be network support for PEBBLE using that Sgeo's thing? 15:22:50 oklopol: Eventually. 15:23:29 pikhq: I challenge you, sir, to create both an IRC client and server in PEBBLE 15:24:37 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 15:26:05 perhaps at least not before that thing exists 15:33:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:35:29 RodgerTheGreat: Evil. . . 15:35:36 I like it. :p 15:35:41 yup 15:35:58 it's the kind of idea I'm good at. 15:36:08 * importantshock hurts just thinking about that 15:37:11 I dunno, *doing* it in PEBBLE shouldn't be all that horrible, but debugging it will be pure hell 15:39:39 bbl 15:44:15 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:44:49 -!- sebbu has left (?). 15:49:02 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 16:05:36 ehird`: the counter moves pretty fast, ay? 16:05:56 oh 16:06:03 -!- ihope has joined. 16:06:05 you took down my favorite game :< 16:06:30 Hey, bsmntbombdood is missing. 16:06:56 that was a fast set subtraction 16:36:08 oklopol: sorry, but i like my server 16:36:32 THINGS WE HAVE LEARNED TODAY: 16:36:42 - digg users are automated bots with no natural processing power 16:36:59 - /b/ users have natural processing power but only use it for emulating automated bots with no natural processing power 16:36:59 What's "natural" processing power? 16:37:09 ihope: processing power in the brain, not e.g. a cpu 16:37:20 Monthly Transfer: 10.36 GB (4.86 transmit / 5.51 receive) 16:37:21 * ihope nods 16:37:23 .36 over the limit! 16:37:25 In ONE DAY! 16:37:31 Yesterday it was 0.3 16:37:42 So 10gb in that short time! 16:38:10 oh :P 16:39:24 wow 16:39:24 Elliott, 16:39:25 I enjoyed Counter. Thank you! 16:39:25 I was me/Davman 16:39:26 Dave 16:39:27 -- email 16:39:34 :DD 16:39:35 fanmail 16:39:40 XD 16:41:26 god there's a lot to do in the irc server spec 16:41:49 i mean 16:41:56 that's not even the server-server spec 16:42:00 http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/rfc/rfc2812.txt <<< server-client spec 16:42:16 even that has a LOT of shit 16:42:21 irc clients = simple 16:42:26 irc servers = not 16:42:29 yeah 16:42:51 i think i'll gradually grow mine to be closer and closer to the spec 16:45:26 it actually already has almost everything you need for irc... 16:45:38 join/part/privmsg 16:45:46 and whois 16:47:04 What ever happened to RFC 1459? 16:47:57 that's old? 16:48:09 people die when they get old 16:52:59 Hmm. 16:53:10 So there are entirely new IRC specs now? 16:54:56 pretty much the same 16:54:59 just update 17:01:31 Well, yes. New, but not entirely. 17:14:02 in python, can i delete the value the iterator poits to from the iterated thingie when doing a for loop 17:14:31 well, you can't do that in most languages with iterators... 17:14:59 java! 17:15:16 glargh, it's such a frequent thing 17:15:49 wouldn't it make more sense to break, or am I misunderstanding the question? 17:16:06 whut? 17:16:14 to... break? 17:16:33 i need to remove the current iterator value from the container 17:16:56 Um... 17:17:22 Would I understand this better if I'd previously known that iterators pointed to things? 17:17:52 like, i have [1,2,3], i iterate it through, and if i find 2, i remove it 17:18:04 and am left with [1,3] 17:18:07 erm... 17:18:18 that is *not* how iterators should be used at all 17:19:02 tell me a better way 17:19:10 My guess is you want either a list comprehension or the filter function. 17:19:20 yes, if i do that functionally 17:19:29 I would just iterate through the list manually- I mean, fuck iterators, really 17:20:02 all they do is hide a FOR loop from you 17:20:18 i don't wanna duplicate the whole container every time i do this, so i don't want filter 17:20:33 'course, I'm the nutcase that regularly implements his own stacks inside objects simply because it seems easier that way 17:20:35 i want to do a constant time delete. 17:20:38 well 17:20:44 it's not a constant time delete anyway 17:20:51 but whaddyagonna do, it's python 17:21:04 constant time delete = constant time find = hashmap 17:21:13 yarr 17:21:16 well 17:21:23 So you have a variable containing [1,2,3] and you want to change it to [1,3]? 17:21:30 Or, you know, something similar. 17:21:30 i guess i could make a hashing for my objects and have that 17:21:57 ihope: i want iterators to be removable from whatever they're iterating through 17:21:58 see, my first guess would be to just remove the 2 from the *original* list, rather than trying to pull it out of the iterator 17:22:13 but when you do it that way there's no advantage to using iterators in the first place 17:22:26 well yeah, i could just make another container and copy everything but 2 there 17:22:41 not really what I meant, but that works too 17:22:50 what did you mean then? 17:23:24 i don't really care what iterators should be used for, all i know is i didn't want to do that functionally, but now i have to 17:23:37 is python object-oriented? 17:23:41 ya 17:24:00 then do it like you would in Java 1.4 17:26:32 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p455223544.txt 17:28:21 hmm... i should make that for any size lists 17:28:25 augh. Oh, jesus- tabs-as-block-delimeters... 17:28:28 i mean, any number of keys 17:29:41 I think that code ought to do the trick 17:30:02 i know it does, it's just i feel it's a bit too much code for something that trivial :) 17:31:33 well, i'm pretty sure it works, and it worked when i tested it, i don't *know* it works for any case... 17:31:47 actually i've done one test case. 17:43:39 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p225212312.txt 17:43:40 hihi 17:44:03 i love how python looks <3 17:44:13 when there's no ugly whitespace 17:44:18 cuz it goes all curly 17:46:33 for example that simple cartesian product... you have to hack it in with iteration and a boolean to indicate whether the thing was found 17:46:55 it's like 5 lines for something conceptually overtrivial 17:47:39 well, i guess i could just make the necessary functions myself and not expect python to have everything i need built-in 17:52:14 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 18:05:04 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:08:28 -!- sebbu2 has left (?). 18:15:27 -!- importantshock has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:16:24 -!- jix__ has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:16:28 -!- jix_ has joined. 18:18:14 oklopol: itssss bacckkkkkk http://w.elliotthird.org/counter/ 18:41:22 yayee 19:09:21 oklopol: your position in the rankings is being threatened 19:17:20 omg! 19:17:28 perhaps because i stopped playing :P 19:18:44 16. now 19:24:11 ehird`: what does that do? 19:24:24 Is there a button people can click to make the counter go higher or something? 19:26:07 Clearly, I should make a program that sends whatever thing to the server repeatedly. 19:27:01 Or I could just hold down "enter". 19:28:10 I wonder how many I have... 19:31:52 Hmm, digg/digg is winning. 19:32:00 Maybe I shouldn't have used a password :-P 19:32:40 So, the main function is increment_counter(). 19:32:58 people already do it 19:33:04 but if you do it on a personal account i will ban you 19:33:21 And yeah, the button is Increment counter and it sets the counter 1 higher. 19:33:28 The highscores are just the people who have clicked most. 19:33:41 Do what on a personal account? 19:34:05 call the increment_counter repeatedly 19:34:09 Oh. 19:34:17 i cant stop digg doing it because its many people 19:34:26 but anybody else - account deleted 19:34:38 You can't delete the digg account? :-P 19:34:54 i can 19:34:59 but then digg would stop coming 19:35:03 and many people don't cheat on the digg account 19:35:28 Well, I guess 3133 clicks is "the number". 19:35:53 -!- jix_ has quit ("CommandQ"). 19:36:06 ? 19:36:08 oh 19:36:10 yeah 19:36:21 get to 3133 and you will be able to see your click count :p 19:38:20 davman is the guy who gave me fanmail for it.. 19:38:43 hmm... i can't load the page anymore 19:38:53 http://w.elliotthird.org/counter/ 19:38:55 try just clicking 19:40:14 Yay. 19:40:24 you're on the highscores, ihope 19:43:19 i used to be, then i stopped getting connexion :< 19:44:15 oklopol: you're at #19 19:44:18 just, http://w.elliotthird.org/counter/ 19:44:20 it should work 19:44:23 ping elliotthird.org or something 19:45:51 119 users! 19:50:03 damn ihope 19:50:19 i hold enter down all the time and he goes up faster :) 19:50:19 :-) 19:50:48 i'm on 3 networks + server my own + have torrents on + 4 bots running 19:51:04 that might... have something to do with it 19:51:34 -!- importantshock has joined. 19:53:00 hah, khauros is SO cheating 19:53:07 he's going up 90 per update 19:53:16 still, if he beats digg it'll be worth it 19:53:48 wow, i think he's actually gonna beat digg 19:55:02 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 19:55:47 what's cheating? 19:56:11 javascript:function test(){increment_counter();self.setTimeout("test()",1);}test(); 19:56:11 ^ that is cheating 19:56:23 it's an insta-ban-ticket unless you're about to beat digg like khauros is 19:56:26 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:56:37 oklopol: at least you won't have to pass me for a while :-P 19:57:23 can digg stories get on the front page twice? 19:58:51 -!- jix_ has joined. 19:59:08 i now did the non programming version of that 19:59:15 ehird`: are you going to wait for Khauros to pass digg and then ban? :-P 19:59:21 have my other keyboard on the floor with a glass on top of enter :) 19:59:37 is that cheating? 19:59:45 ihope: nah, ill just tell him to stop after 19:59:48 it's preventing me to use the computer 19:59:57 oklopol: it is kind of cheating but its allowed 20:00:10 Oh, good, allowed. 20:00:19 You really should specify the rules :-P 20:02:08 i thought games like this are always about connection speed :) 20:02:20 (and the ability to write oneliners) 20:02:42 ARGH 20:02:51 why does ihope own me all the time 20:03:21 I dunno. 20:03:27 Cable Internet? 20:03:34 yeah 20:03:47 i think it's the fact i'm using a browser 20:04:06 i made this program to fetch random pictures from a site people put their pics in 20:04:13 fetches 2-3 pics per sec 20:04:25 if you do it via browser, 3 pics / minute 20:04:34 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:04:36 my internet connection is terrible 20:04:38 i hate it 20:04:39 well, sometimes a lot faster, but never anything near my program 20:04:50 -!- sebbu has left (?). 20:05:04 KAHUROS OVERTOOK DIGG 20:05:11 bwahahaha 20:06:33 i get like 4/sec 20:06:34 ADSF 20:07:12 * ehird` disappears for a while 20:07:58 :)(( 20:08:05 bsmntbombdood: ? 20:08:31 * ehird` really disappears now 20:09:40 :( 20:10:07 -!- importantshock has quit. 20:11:13 Hey! Turris is moving! How unfair. 20:12:13 i'm disconected about 4 times an hour 20:12:22 in a good hour 20:19:40 Okay, enough of that for now. 20:20:21 I was using a browser for this... 20:26:07 ehird`: how long's that gonna be there? 20:26:12 * pikhq wonders where Sgeo's latest PSOX spec is 20:37:56 -!- RedDak has joined. 20:40:13 digg is still going at a quite impressing rate 20:50:00 What's it at now? 20:51:26 267393 20:52:06 Hmm, indeed, rather impressive. 20:52:29 Now, is there a contest like that except with "click a certain button" replaced by "send a byte to the server on a certain port"? 20:52:33 :-) 20:52:35 Game, rather. 20:53:39 there should be, since that's basically the same, but you don't have to cheat 20:53:53 though for many cheating might be the thrill 20:55:05 there's a link-clicking game called "outwar" similar to that, as I recall 20:55:15 the trick is that clicks have to be from different IPs 20:57:59 oklopol: depends on what you count as cheating. 20:58:21 Is telnet server < /dev/zero cheating? 20:58:59 RodgerTheGreat: http://www.free-games.com.au/Detailed/205.html? 21:00:05 Which, I suppose, is http://www.outwar.com/... 21:00:06 ihope: i mean ehird`'s game may be nicer as long as doing that is considered cheating 21:01:02 ihope: think that's it 21:02:28 * ihope ponders choosing "Who is your favorite teacher?" for his security question 21:02:31 hhah! i'm waaaaaaaaaay before ihope now 21:02:46 oklopol: "before"? 21:02:51 umm 21:02:51 * ihope uses a bogus answer instead 21:02:54 over? 21:02:58 Ahead of? 21:03:01 yes! 21:03:14 before in the list 21:03:25 How many do we each have? 21:03:41 Shall I start moving again? 21:03:45 digg (290931) 21:03:45 digg (290931) 21:03:45 butter (211807) 21:03:47 fuck 21:03:47 butter (211807) 21:03:47 Khauros (200000) 21:03:49 Khauros (200000) 21:03:51 sigloiv (107808) 21:03:53 sigloiv (107808) 21:03:55 NOOOOOOO 21:03:57 thepillows (106158) 21:03:59 thepillows (106158) 21:04:01 sqrt (101207) 21:04:03 sqrt (101207) 21:04:05 Turris (101055) 21:04:05 Um, I suggest /parting. 21:04:07 Turris (101055) 21:04:09 :<<<<<<<<<<< 21:04:11 You're sort of spamming the channel. 21:04:11 Yareking (97664) 21:04:13 Yareking (97664) 21:04:15 Xybob (79340) 21:04:19 Xybob (79340) 21:04:21 MountainCable (73690) 21:04:23 MountainCable (73690) 21:04:25 http://petition.co.uk (61432) 21:04:27 http://petition.co.uk (61432) 21:04:29 oklopol (55258) 21:04:31 oklopol (55258) 21:04:33 mezane (54350) 21:04:35 xDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 21:04:37 mezane (54350) 21:04:39 wuha (52398) 21:04:41 -!- oklopol has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:04:44 -!- oklopol has joined. 21:04:49 wtf 21:04:58 i'm pretty sure i selected just myself from the list 21:05:07 Apparently, you didn't. 21:05:12 also, part wouldn't work, neither would closing the window 21:05:15 What am I at? 21:05:18 It wouldn't? 21:05:37 oklopol: 56208 21:05:47 ihope 44677 21:05:57 the button was a no-op 21:06:01 Ah, indeed, you're past me. 21:06:02 disconnecting worked 21:06:54 gonna leave that on for a few weeks 21:06:59 THEN WE'LL SEE 21:07:00 MUAHAHA 21:07:05 ... 21:07:21 I think you'll be on top by then :-P 21:07:28 heh, yeah :) 21:07:36 well... 21:07:47 i'm pretty sure there are bots that are left on forever there 21:07:51 or at least for long 21:08:28 it's a bit harder for me since i'm actually pressing enter all the time 21:08:44 Find some coins and stack them :-) 21:08:51 How many computers do you have? 21:08:57 i'm not that rich :P 21:09:05 Oh. :-P 21:09:30 i just have bills 21:09:33 ..paper money 21:09:37 Maybe I'll send you the oldest one we have. :-P 21:09:49 oldest coin? 21:09:55 No, oldest computer. 21:10:01 oh 21:10:06 It has a CPU speed display on the front. 21:10:06 how many COMPUTERS 21:10:15 the rich answer was for stacking coins 21:10:20 Ah. 21:10:23 i have 3 computers here 21:10:28 + commodore 64 21:10:39 and i'm getting a small handheld one 21:10:44 You're not rich enough to have coins? 21:10:47 :D 21:10:52 those are oooold 21:10:56 i just never throw anything out 21:11:19 Are you in some weird country where coins are more valuable than bills rather than the other way around? :-P 21:11:25 :DD 21:11:34 no, i'm in a country where ppl tell jokes! 21:11:43 Ah. That IS weird. 21:11:50 yeah 21:11:58 We don't tell jokes here. Everybody is always completely serious. 21:12:28 I looked up the world's funniest joke online. I doubted its veracity. 21:12:38 Then I looked up the definition of "joke" online. Now I know. 21:13:29 please link! 21:13:45 i've never laughed at a *joke* joke 21:14:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_funniest_joke 21:15:33 I generally don't laugh at things either. 21:16:05 The funniest thing I remember is Student Bloopers. 21:16:56 Besides, the world's funniest joke is a Monty Python skit. 21:17:22 "Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer? Ja! ... Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput." 21:17:50 * pikhq kills all the German speakers. >:D 21:18:04 NO! 21:18:13 You killed jix_, maybe! 21:18:21 At least he died happily, maybe. 21:18:27 -!- jix_ has left (?). 21:18:29 Very happily. 21:18:47 After all, he did die of laughter. 21:18:55 And of CommandW, I guess. 21:19:02 "Nero was a cruel tyrany who would torture his poor subjects by playing the fiddle to them." 21:19:03 -!- jix_ has joined. 21:19:19 He's alive again. 21:19:49 That's good. 21:19:59 Stop violating continuity! 21:20:03 * ihope re-kills jix_ 21:20:11 -!- jix_ has left (?). 21:21:09 -!- jix_ has joined. 21:21:54 Look, if you're not going to stay dead, at least go back and time and make it so you were never killed. 21:23:15 /kill *.de 21:24:18 D'oh. 21:24:30 /kill *.*.*.183 21:24:47 We might as well be random, now. 21:25:06 i've dropped in the list 21:26:10 "Beethoven wrote music even though he was deaf. He was so deaf he wrote loud music. He took long walks in the forest even when everyone was calling for him." 21:26:17 perhaps i'll stay up to whole night and do absolutely nothing 21:26:31 that's not really a feat 21:26:37 that beethoven's thing 21:27:58 "Beethoven expired in 1827 and later died for this." 21:27:58 >>> i okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 21:27:59 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 21:28:03 whut? 21:28:28 "Queen Victoria was the longest queen. She sat on a thorn for 63 years. He reclining years and finally the end of her life were exemplatory of a great personality. Her death was the final event which ended her reign." 21:28:35 >>> i i i i i 21:28:35 i i i i 21:28:43 How interesting. What is this? 21:29:12 that is... a cat command :) 21:29:21 >>> o o o 21:29:27 >>> o k 5 21:29:27 okokokoko 21:29:36 /kill * 21:29:45 > k o 5 21:29:54 Yes, that certainly... 21:29:57 ihope: Source? 21:30:04 http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~norman/Jokes-file/StudentBloopers.htm 21:30:42 was the first one somehow wrong too? 21:30:54 The first what? 21:30:59 the beethoven thing 21:31:03 Yup. 21:31:15 Well, not so much wrong as just plain silly. 21:31:28 well the last sentence is kinda funny 21:31:46 the long walks thing 21:31:48 "The First World War, cause by the assignation of the Arch-Duck by a surf, ushered in a new error in the anals of human history"? 21:31:52 Ah, yes. 21:32:30 "the victims of the Black Death grew boobs on their necks." 21:32:52 "In midevil times most of the people were alliterate." Appropriate 21:33:16 Indeed. 21:33:21 illiterate, should be? 21:34:02 Yup. 21:34:02 >>> k o 5 21:34:03 o 21:34:07 whut 21:34:09 >>> x o 5 21:34:09 ooooooooo 21:34:13 >>> x k 5 21:34:13 kokokokok 21:34:17 > i i 5 21:34:18 >>> x l 5 21:34:18 lolololol 21:34:29 >>> k l 5 21:34:29 l 21:34:31 So, um, what's it do? 21:34:33 k indeed is... k 21:34:40 what does what do? 21:34:42 my bot? 21:34:48 >>> help 21:34:48 These are all the cmds currently in ololobot: 21:34:48 bf, bs, expr, help, numbda, pl, ul, dict, feed, sch, o, x, k, i, s, factors, in-pr, in-po, in-fi 21:34:50 Yeah. 21:34:55 some have documentation 21:34:57 >>> help bf 21:34:58 This is a simple brainfuck interpreter. 21:34:58 Usage: 21:34:58 ">>> [Wnnn] code [<<< input]" to run, where [...]'s are optional. 21:34:58 Wnnn sets wrapping, nnn is any number that fits an irc message. 21:35:00 How interesting. 21:35:04 > help numbda 21:35:09 Well, *K* is /xy.x 21:35:10 >>>, really 21:35:15 >>> help numbda 21:35:15 No info about numbda. 21:35:18 darn 21:35:26 just a few have info... 21:35:29 Indeed, I keep using > for some reason. 21:35:32 What is numbda? 21:35:38 numbda is a language i made some time ago 21:36:08 currently it's basically just basic arithmetic+vars+function calls+lambdas, 21:36:25 but the interpreter isn't working yet, fully, so iu haven't finished the lang 21:36:27 *i 21:36:44 it should be a language where lambdas are implicit 21:37:10 (x+3) == lambda x:x+3 if used out of x's namespace 21:37:28 otherwise (x+3) == ...well, x+3 21:38:23 Hmm... I think I prefer more explicit stuff. 21:38:31 heh 21:38:33 flip (+) 3, (+3), \x -> x+3. 21:39:48 if a subexpression uses a variable X that is not in the current namespace, that subexpression is considered a lambda that takes one argument, and sets X to that 21:40:12 otherwise the subexpression is not considered a lambda, but a simple expression that is evaluated. 21:40:31 >>> numda k={a->{b->a}};k!6!7 21:40:36 What's (x + 3) * 4? 21:40:38 >>> numbda k={a->{b->a}};k!6!7 21:40:39 num:6 21:40:47 that doesn't work, in general. 21:41:04 (x + 3) is the subexpression here? 21:41:20 yes 21:41:45 So is the subexpression pretty much as small as it can reasonably be? 21:42:12 umm 21:42:18 it's the shortest possible x+3, yes 21:42:22 if you don't use spaces 21:43:03 it has first order lambdas, but operators are on a different level 21:43:13 you have to use ! to use your own lambdas/functionsa 21:43:15 *functions 21:43:27 Spaces, you say? 21:43:47 >>> numbda k={a->{b->a}};s={a->{b->{c->(a!c)!(b!c)}}};s!k!k!4 21:43:47 num:4 21:44:04 spaces. (x + 3) * 4 -> (x+3)*4, i mean 21:44:47 They're different, you mean? 21:44:57 no, the latter is just shorter 21:45:06 (23:40:21) (ihope) So is the subexpression pretty much as small as it can reasonably be? <<< i was sommenting to this 21:45:08 Do spaces matter at all in this language? 21:45:16 yes, token separation 21:45:19 actually 21:45:22 no, they never do. 21:46:29 because -> is the only operator with two chars, and > isn't a prefix operator 21:47:17 >>> numbda k={a->{b ->a}};s = {a->{b- >{c->(a!c ) !(b!c)}} };s !k!k!4 21:47:18 error:no-reason-error 21:47:24 hmm 21:47:24 >>> numbda k={a->{b ->a}};s = {a->{b- >{c->(a!c ) !(b!c)}} };s !k!k!4 21:47:24 error:no-reason-error 21:47:32 in that implementation, i can't guarantee a thing :) 21:47:40 but... that should work 21:48:00 oh, indeed, you can't separate "->", or varnames 21:48:18 >>> numbda {a -> 3} 21:48:18 lazy:[apply opr:-> to id:a(0) and num:3] 21:48:26 >>> numbda {a -> 3}!4 21:48:26 num:3 21:48:28 >>> numbda {a -> 3} ! 4 21:48:29 num:3 21:48:44 >>> numbda k={a->{b ->a}};s = {a->{b->{c->(a!c ) !(b!c)}} };s !k!k!44 21:48:44 num:44 21:48:47 ah 21:49:04 you did exactly that, separated -> 21:49:38 separated "->" that is 21:49:59 i always parse -> in the end of a message as "i'm leaving" 21:50:51 my whole computer crashed from pressing enter :) 21:50:55 ubuntu <3 21:51:06 Heh... 21:51:19 -!- jix_ has quit ("CommandQ"). 21:51:30 i did the same thing on windows for just as long, though also had about 50 other programs running 21:51:40 nothing happened 21:53:29 I think I'll implement SKI in my improved parser language. 21:53:40 Then I'll come up with a spec for my improved parser language :-P 21:54:00 cüle 21:54:20 im back 21:54:31 yay 21:54:39 Hmm, now I'm wanting Ubuntu back. 21:54:55 Because Gentoo is sort of not working :-P 21:55:29 my experience with ubuntu has been a bit bad 21:55:35 I could get it to work with enough Google searches and support pestering, but... 21:55:44 it's crashed more times over my short use than my windows machines in a year 21:55:45 It has? 21:55:55 Hmm. I don't think it's ever crashed here. 21:56:22 mine is crashed right now 21:56:44 What other things do you use? 21:57:01 "things"? 21:57:03 programs? 21:57:17 Operating systems. 21:57:20 ah 21:57:28 (Hmm, it's hard to type and regularly press the CD eject button at the same time.) 21:57:28 i have windows on this machine and ubuntu on the other 21:57:41 why do you press it? 21:58:16 Well, it doesn't work while the Gentoo LiveCD is running, so I have to reboot it and then press the button before it checks for an OS on the CD. 21:58:57 Now to try to get Ubuntu running, since its live CD is a little unreliable. 22:00:07 Or maybe I should just RTF Gentoo M. 22:03:34 the only decent ubuntu 22:03:35 is xubuntu 22:03:38 and it ROCKS 22:04:08 it's fast as hell, comes with lots of decent apps, highly customizable but easy to use, and has many optional visual effects 22:04:11 it's perfect 22:06:21 xubuntu is perfect for both kde and gnome users i find 22:06:30 it's simple enough for gnome users to get the hang of it, but without the annoying bugs 22:06:43 and it's as configurable as kde users expect 22:08:30 all i can think of that an os could offer is a better file/networking/process system, as far as i know, unix's is pretty much the same as windows's 22:08:54 and i have no idea why i always start begging for a fight by saying stuff like that 22:09:02 Heh. 22:09:19 Does Windows have chroot? 22:09:31 for a while there i thought ubuntu had recovered :) 22:09:32 but noooo 22:09:36 It's a teeny tiny bit essential :-P 22:09:44 okay, unix's access stuff is better 22:09:47 ihope: nope, it doesn;t 22:10:21 why is it essential? 22:10:34 Hmm... maybe it's not that essential. 22:10:41 it's nice sometimes 22:10:42 oklopol: Sounds like Plan9. 22:10:46 How easy is it to write a program that adds a user? 22:10:59 i don't see how you'd ever need to do that 22:11:09 Sandboxing? 22:11:52 well yeah, but adding a user is just one means of doing that 22:11:59 Indeed. 22:12:07 How can it be done nicely under Windows? 22:12:10 no way 22:12:27 but then again, i don't really use other ppl's code, so i just write safe code. 22:12:36 You don't? 22:12:47 i'm not into os 22:12:50 open source 22:12:55 plan9 is crazy xD 22:13:08 Does that mean you wrote your own IRC client, too? 22:13:33 Or by "code" do you mean "source code"? 22:13:39 that means i feel bad unless i do 22:13:43 oklopol: You don't like free software?!? 22:13:44 not that i necessarily do 22:13:50 i suffer from NIH 22:13:53 pikhq: i like receiving, not giving 22:14:00 i didn't write this? then i better rewrite a clone of it 22:14:02 *groan* 22:14:13 oklopol: so basically you're a selfish person 22:14:18 that's not the best life skill you can have ;P 22:14:21 What's "NIH" stand for? 22:14:26 Not Invented Here. 22:15:13 ehird`: i do like to receive, but i do not encourage anyone to share. 22:15:53 Selfish. 22:15:58 exactly 22:16:02 Well, they are giving it away. 22:16:08 (pikhq) oklopol: You don't like free software?!? <<< what was that for an argument then? 22:16:17 Free as in freedom. 22:16:25 ah 22:16:34 Not an argument, more asking "what the hell?" 22:16:42 i believe if you use free/open-source/whatever-fscking-term-you-like-to-debate-about software, it's good to consider releasing at least some of your software the same way 22:16:42 yeah, i get it 22:16:52 it just helps the continuum keep going 22:17:09 i do not understand how i can ever get money for my programs if i do open source 22:17:11 I've got a different belief, ehird. . . 22:17:13 and i do not want to die. 22:17:21 i will die without money 22:17:41 that's my only problem with open source 22:17:42 GPL: if you add to this program, GIMME! :-P 22:17:47 And, as I've argued previously, you can make money with free software. 22:17:53 oklopol: SOLUTION - don't try and make money off software 22:17:57 and the fact people start bitching about minor details they don't like about my programming style 22:18:06 ehird`: okay... then how do i get money? 22:18:12 oklopol: with a job? 22:18:15 ... 22:18:22 == programming 22:18:27 umm 22:18:28 don't? 22:18:30 that's all i ever want to do, naturally 22:18:34 well tough 22:18:37 this world is not a utopia 22:18:38 get real 22:18:40 Programming jobs don't pay? 22:19:04 i never thought os ppl actually thought programming isn't something you can make a living off 22:19:07 ihope: programming is hardly the simplest industry to get into 22:19:09 I'll be sure to tell that to Sun, Red Hat, and Novell employees. 22:19:09 they really think that? 22:19:13 oklopol: no, I think that 22:19:27 oklopol: No, they think it doesn't matter whether or not you can; freedom is more important. 22:19:50 i prefer money over lazyness. 22:20:17 I've suddenly forgotten what we're talking about. 22:20:25 i just said i don't like open source 22:20:25 oklopol: well, get a job other than programming... the probability of being able to sustain yourself fully from programming is very small 22:20:25 Is it about how oklopol can make money? 22:20:31 i like saying that once in a while 22:20:43 * ihope shrugs 22:20:45 -!- ihope has left (?). 22:20:45 ehird`: like.. what? 22:20:59 what else can one do? 22:21:12 oklopol: ooh, let's think, one of the thousands of other jobs in the world? 22:21:18 hardly any choice is there! 22:21:28 i can't think of anything 22:21:32 ... 22:21:44 are you sheltered or just very ignorant? 22:21:50 i'm definately gonna do anything where i have to... do something but program 22:21:55 *not 22:22:03 i can't do anything else 22:22:06 hah 22:22:10 call me in 10 years 22:22:12 You could program and make money off of it. . . 22:22:12 :) 22:22:34 I hear Red Hat, Novell, Sun, etc. are willing to pay for free software developers. 22:22:34 pikhq: ehird` said that is not possible 22:22:47 oklopol: i did not 22:22:58 oklopol: i just said that it's hardly the most stable industry to get into easily 22:23:10 oklopol: Reality disagrees (although given the right circumstances, it could be difficult) ;) 22:23:11 i hope the os movement just dies, i'm a dreamer, you see. 22:23:22 oklopol: wow, uh, i'd like to see a future with that 22:23:27 me too <3 22:23:30 oklopol: you'll be running on... how shall i put it... low tech? 22:23:33 you're an idiot 22:23:34 And free software doesn't involve dreaming? 22:23:52 not really, you can't devote your life to something you don't get paid for 22:23:57 "OS MOVEMENT SHOULD DIE BECAUSE I WANT IT TO WHAT DO YOU MEAN TECHNOLOGY PROGRESS WOULD STOP <3" "I WILL NOT GET ANY JOB BUT PROGRAMMING" 22:24:03 oklopol: umm, heard of "hobbies"? 22:24:16 oklopol: I'll be sure to tell that to Gandhi. 22:24:44 pikhq: hardly a good point. 22:24:52 Stallman, then. 22:25:22 stallman is crazy-ass anyway 22:25:37 if there really aren't many programming jobs available when i finish university, i'll just be jobless i guess 22:25:47 great idea! 22:25:53 just wither away and die or something 22:25:53 best i can think of 22:25:54 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:25:55 you'll be fine! 22:25:57 Somewhere without programming jobs is probably 3rd-world. . . 22:26:26 pikhq: i'm just responding to you ppl saying there aren't many programming jobs available. 22:26:30 i do know there are a lot 22:26:32 oklopol: That's ehird, not me. 22:26:33 even in this area 22:26:34 we NEVER SAID THAT 22:26:38 I never said that 22:26:47 pikhq: you said something vague about reality, i may have misinterpreted 22:27:01 oh 22:27:05 i did misunderstand 22:27:08 Yeah. 22:27:10 i humbly apologize. 22:27:12 now pizza -> 22:27:42 well his logic is outstanding 22:27:42 :/ 22:28:14 mine? 22:28:55 (00:17:40) (oklopol) i never thought os ppl actually thought programming isn't something you can make a living off 22:28:58 (00:17:49) (ehird`) oklopol: no, I think that 22:29:05 i guess i failed with all the negations. 22:29:23 english is a bit ambiguous. 22:29:41 (00:19:01) (ehird`) oklopol: well, get a job other than programming... the probability of being able to sustain yourself fully from programming is very small <<< very small probability 22:30:12 i guess i misunderstood you 22:30:22 then this conversation has been most redundant :) 22:31:23 ehird`: Also, Stallman is no more a nutcase than you are. ;p 22:31:43 who's he? 22:31:47 i'll google 22:31:48 pikhq: no, stallman is a complete nutcase 22:31:53 ehird`: How so? 22:32:02 pikhq: you can't tell? :) 22:32:08 Prove it, please. 22:32:17 o.O 22:32:21 it's a subjective opinion 22:32:22 how can i prove it 22:32:26 Fine. 22:32:34 Demonstrate some things that make him a nutcase to you. 22:34:27 ehird`: just out of curiosity, what would you be willing to do if you didn't get a programming job? 22:34:32 his nutcasery, pikhq? ;) 22:34:41 oklopol: any reasonable job? 22:34:59 i could do porn 22:35:05 but can't think of anything else reasonable 22:35:20 hahahahaha 22:35:22 ahahahaha 22:35:23 what's a reasonable job? 22:35:35 get back to me when i've regained control over my lungs 22:35:36 ehird`: You suck at defending yourself. 22:35:48 pikhq: thanks? 22:36:00 ehird`: that wasn't a joke, really, but please answer :\ 22:36:32 okay, in theory i could be a musician, but i don't enjoy the social aspect 22:36:42 just being a composer doesn't make a living 22:36:56 really, what's a reasonable job? 22:37:10 i doubt yours are the same as mine 22:37:20 would that be like... a shop clerk? 22:37:24 a thief? 22:37:28 that'd be cool :) 22:37:55 i could also be like a mad professor 22:38:03 say PONG when i hit yours 22:38:57 ehird`: lungs okay? 22:41:04 * ehird` is lying dead on the floor 22:41:20 i see 22:43:22 ehird`: are you gonna answer me? :< 22:43:47 ? 22:44:15 "just out of curiosity, what would you be willing to do if you didn't get a programming job?" 22:45:01 a regular job.. 22:45:10 like... 22:45:13 one example 22:45:47 like... bus driver? 22:45:53 a cleaner? 22:46:09 beggar? 22:46:14 that's also be cool :D 22:46:21 *that'd 22:46:43 beggar wouldn't be cool 22:46:44 :p 22:47:11 if they allow computers in prisons, that's one thing i could do, do someting criminal and program all day 22:48:10 *something 22:48:42 heh 22:48:49 oh! 22:48:59 one thing i've always thought about is a janitor 22:49:21 like, for example, at a school 22:49:28 (if they still have janitors) 22:49:56 well, anything where you can lock yourself up somewhere, really 22:50:15 guess i'm a bit agoraphobic or smth 22:51:41 -!- ihope has joined. 22:52:19 and then i asked her to pee in my mouth 22:52:26 What the... 22:52:33 that was kinda weird 22:52:40 hi ihope 22:52:53 Did I join at exactly the wrong time? 22:53:06 sorry, just an old joke of mine 22:53:15 :-) 22:53:17 :D 22:53:29 Explains the lack of context in the logs :-P 22:53:36 heh, yeah 22:54:31 ehird` is mean :( 22:54:41 No, ehird` is median! 22:54:44 i prefer "and then it got all over the keyboard, and oh god it was wet and sticky" 22:54:50 50th percentile exactly. 22:54:51 for out of context quotes 22:55:19 well yeah, but context ones are a bit different 22:55:21 Maybe you could quote subject lines of spam. 22:55:22 because you can clarify it with "i was drinking soda and it spilled" 22:56:45 There's "My boyfriend's . . .". 22:57:20 Which I guess is the same template as "My new guy's . . .". 22:57:50 Not sure about "When I tried to . . ." and "I just started . . .". 22:58:23 Wow. Even "Can you tell me . . ." is one of that template. 22:58:35 umm... how do you use these? 22:59:12 They're not really that good. 22:59:22 There's more to it than the part I quoted. 22:59:28 Check your spam folder for the rest. :-P 22:59:43 i don't get spam :< 22:59:52 Oh. 23:00:07 Why not? 23:00:20 i used to get some, but... then it just stopped 23:00:37 Weird. 23:00:40 ISP filtering? 23:00:44 i actually give the address away a lot 23:00:48 -!- theoros has joined. 23:01:11 i don't know anything about the email, it's a webmail from our school 23:01:27 Sounds like that'd have a spam filter. 23:01:37 most likely 23:02:20 I guess these subject lines are a little gross. 23:02:33 do tell 23:02:38 Dirty, I mean. 23:02:42 Sort of very dirty. 23:02:56 well yes, that's why i asked 23:03:19 Want me to tell you one? 23:03:22 yes 23:03:53 Perhaps not THAT dirty. 23:03:59 Certainly a little dirty. 23:04:46 well yes, but can you make that undirty in the right context? 23:04:54 i've heard worse on this channel 23:05:05 What do you mean? 23:05:09 you could've said it here, i mean 23:05:13 and 23:05:15 Yeah, I could have. 23:05:24 "can you make that undirty in the right context?" 23:05:28 i think that's... pretty clear 23:05:33 * ihope shrugs 23:13:29 * ihope ponders SKI calculus 23:13:46 I "should" be working on getting Gentoo going. 23:14:26 :D 23:14:34 that was a quick ponder 23:14:44 No, I'm still pondering. 23:14:46 ah 23:14:51 Actually, it's SK calculus. 23:14:52 what are you pondering about it? 23:14:56 yes yes 23:15:02 but ski sounds better 23:15:02 How to implement it. 23:15:05 Indeed. 23:15:06 in what? 23:15:09 in your okat 23:15:11 *okay 23:15:18 I'll call it SKI calculus any way, then :-P 23:15:32 yeah, we all know the basics here anyway 23:15:35 I'm implementing it in this parsing-based language. 23:15:48 parsing-based, wanna enlighten me? 23:15:56 Every first-class value is a parser. 23:16:08 okay 23:16:31 so basically a function parses it's arguments? 23:16:35 No, it's SK"/x.SKKx" calculus. 23:16:45 Parsers return strings, but a string is indistinguishable from a parser immediately returning that string. 23:17:03 What a function parses isn't one of its arguments. 23:17:19 Rather, what a parser parses. 23:17:30 Let's be more formal, like ihope would say. 23:17:36 :-) 23:17:46 a parser does string->parser->string 23:17:46 ? 23:17:49 or what? 23:18:02 Sort of tricky to put formally, I guess. Lemme think... 23:18:23 it's kinda like tree rewriting, but you have to serialize between steps? 23:19:27 * ihope ponders 23:20:08 okay 23:20:16 how is the overall data in a program presented? 23:20:18 Okay, I think I've got it, greatly. 23:20:22 is it one string at every stage? 23:20:26 oky 23:20:30 then explain your way 23:20:35 oaky 23:21:24 oaky was a language i started making for tree-rewriting exactly, before i'd actually tried programming in a tree-rewriting language 23:21:33 i stopped because it wasn't esoteric enough 23:22:15 First of all, there's the regexes, which are parsers. /foo/, for example, looks at the current string. If the string begins with "foo", it removes the "foo" from the beginning and returns "foo". If the string doesn't begin with "foo", it fails. 23:22:39 okay. 23:23:13 parser[string] runs parser with string as its current string, then returns whatever the parser returns, ignoring the new current string. 23:23:59 so /foo/["okokoko"] would fail, /foo/["fookokoko"] would return "foo"? 23:24:07 Yup. 23:24:12 what's failing?` 23:24:20 /fo*/ matches f followed by any number of o. 23:24:32 I'll get to failing later. 23:24:36 okay. 23:24:45 i might guess what that means, but do continue 23:24:48 So /fo*/["fooooobar"] returns "fooooo". 23:24:55 ya 23:25:03 I guess there's no better time to explain failing than now. 23:25:13 do do that 23:25:26 Next piece of syntax: parser | otherparser 23:25:32 yeah, okay 23:26:14 That runs parser on the current string. If parser returned something, it returns whatever parser returned. If parser failed, it pretends parser didn't run at all, then acts like otherparser. 23:26:48 So (/foo/|/bar/)["fooquux"] returns "foo", while (/foo/|/bar/)["barquux"] returns "bar". 23:27:09 so... o="oh"; f="ohoho"; ((o|f)"x")["ohohox"] won't match? 23:27:19 you prolly don't get my syntax... 23:27:39 "oh" and "ohoho" are regexes 23:27:39 so 23:27:54 o=/oh/; f=/ohoho/; ((o|f)/x/)["ohohox"] 23:27:56 You like the letter "o", don't you? :-P 23:28:04 :) 23:28:13 i seem to do. 23:28:21 Assuming you mean concatenation there... hmm, lemme think about that. 23:28:32 Yes, you're right. 23:28:36 that is the problem with that kind of trivial failing 23:29:07 but, you can just make the programmer have their own way of getting around that. 23:29:07 (o|f) would chomp the "oh" and leave /x/ with "ohox". 23:29:07 yeah 23:29:17 Next piece of syntax: parser + otherparser 23:29:25 that's like & 23:29:28 or 23:29:29 well 23:29:31 just explain :) 23:30:01 who wants to take up implang again? 23:30:10 the first revival didn't work =p 23:30:15 This runs parser, then otherparser, and returns the results, concatenated. 23:30:18 ehird`: the planned language? 23:30:55 ihope: the problem is regexes are usually stronger than that in that they can go back in time and always choose the right path 23:31:02 ihope: yeah 23:31:10 * ihope shrugs 23:31:26 if you fail at the end of the test, you should go back to where it last branched and retry 23:31:26 I could add another alternation operator to fix that. 23:31:37 though, i think you can just have other functionality to get past that 23:31:54 ihope: why shrug? :) 23:32:09 he always shrugs, just learn to ignore it! 23:32:14 :P 23:32:17 ehird`: I was shrugging at oklopol's pointing-out of the regex problem. 23:32:19 oklopol: :-P 23:32:23 :D 23:32:35 anyway, please do continue if you have other stuff 23:33:21 ihope: ah :p 23:33:30 Next and biggest piece of syntax is stuff like this: {parserone; x <- parsertwo; parserthree} 23:33:32 ihope: so you haven't responded to the query about the planned languag? 23:33:38 ehird`: no, not really. 23:33:54 This runs parserone, then runs parsertwo, then sets x to whatever parsertwo returned, then runs parserthree. 23:34:02 ehird`: don't stop the lecture! 23:34:10 oklopol: heh 23:34:43 ihope: {a;b;c;...;z} is like a+b+c+d+e+...+z? 23:34:46 x is only in scope for the rest of the block, so it's not really a variable so much as... something else, I guess. 23:35:00 Oh, right. After it runs parserthree, it returns what parserthree returned. 23:35:05 oh 23:35:28 i see, so ; is... ^a^b$b 23:35:38 >>> pl ^a^b$b 23:35:39 `ki 23:35:42 :s 23:35:48 that's... wrong 23:35:56 or... 23:36:01 Well, it's part of the syntax, just like {} is. 23:36:11 It separates the statements inside the block. 23:36:18 yeah 23:36:33 ^a^b$b is `ki 23:36:51 A declaration takes this form: "function(parameter,otherparameter): expression." 23:36:51 hmm... 23:36:58 oh 23:37:00 fuck 23:37:02 i'm an idiot :) 23:37:06 yeah indeed it is 23:37:10 i don't know what i failed 23:37:17 sooo, anyone want to take up implang? 23:37:24 ehird`: maybe! 23:37:30 ,-< 23:37:31 *<_< 23:37:49 Functions take strings; if you try to pass a "non-string-like" parser into a function, you get a runtime error. 23:37:56 i'm gonna do some german work tonight, i think 23:37:59 later that is 23:38:04 Strings can act as parsers, too: a string ignores the current string and returns itself. 23:38:25 ah okay 23:38:43 So function(/regex/) or function(fail) is a runtime error, since /regex/ doesn't ignore the current string and fail doesn't return anything. 23:38:56 (Assuming fail has suddenly turned into a keyword, which it hasn't. :-P) 23:39:18 #thelang for planned implang mk.3 23:39:43 Sort of interestingly, // is stringlike: it ignores the current string and returns "". 23:39:51 So it's the same as "". 23:39:54 And yes, I technically didn't tell you about string literals :-P 23:39:56 {fail<-//;function(fail)} 23:40:01 then it works right? 23:40:21 well i know they exist. 23:40:32 you wouldn't have told me if you had something weirder 23:40:35 Yes, that works, because fail is what // returned here. 23:40:37 would've 23:40:59 hmm 23:41:10 I think there are three "strengths" of alternation operator. 23:41:31 {foo=/asdf/;bar=/.*/}["asdfololololo"] = "ololololo"? 23:41:46 whoops 23:41:50 {foo=/asdf/;/.*/}["asdfololololo"] = "ololololo"? 23:41:54 The "weakest" one assumes that if the string is looked at and the parser doesn't fail immediately, it will never fail. 23:41:54 like that? 23:42:05 oklopol: yep. 23:42:23 three? 23:42:28 This allows the second option to be forgotten. 23:42:46 what if /asdf/ fails? 23:42:59 If part of a block fails, the entire block fails. 23:43:06 ah. 23:43:59 you haven't shown me a way to get a new string to parse 23:43:59 The "medium" strength doesn't make the assumption that the weakest one does, but it assumes that if the first parser succeeds, it can forget about the second option then. 23:44:04 hmm 23:44:09 What do you mean? 23:44:10 sorry, i wasn't clear 23:44:12 wait 23:44:31 hmm 23:44:51 like, you have to have a way to pass a parser around to be able to get any looping going 23:45:48 The "strongest" alternation doesn't make even the assumption that the medium one does: even if the first parser succeeds, any later failure will cause it to switch to the second parser. 23:48:36 yeah 23:48:40 I think I like the weakest alternator best. It's easy to "work around", and is quick to remove things from memory. 23:49:10 but, to be able to do ski, do you have any kind of flow control? 23:49:16 or parser-passing 23:49:26 string *result* catenation etc 23:49:54 otherwise your program just parses one big string character by character 23:49:59 Results can be concatenated fine. 23:50:11 {x <- parser; y <- parser; parser[x+y]} 23:50:29 hmm... 23:50:46 that'd use what parser[x+y] returns as the last parser? 23:51:17 umm 23:51:22 indeed, that returns a string 23:51:31 and a string always returns itself 23:52:06 Parsers return strings. 23:52:11 yes 23:52:38 it took me a second it doesn't matter if that string that's returned is used as a parsed. 23:52:40 *parser 23:52:45 *to realize 23:52:46 ... 23:53:03 hmm 23:53:29 can you pass parsers around? 23:53:33 Nope. 23:53:41 can you do a <- ... ; {a}? 23:53:44 i mean 23:53:48 scopes 23:53:49 like that 23:54:11 because recursion is impossible otherwise 23:54:14 {a <- ...; {a}} works fine. 23:54:20 okay 23:55:01 http://pastebin.ca/677964 23:55:18 A = s; B = k; C = `. 23:56:05 where's the actual parser? 23:56:49 ah you call foo 23:57:48 That program happens to be built from single-letter regexes only. 23:59:15 And it works with the weakest alternator. 23:59:32 And, assuming I didn't make any big mistakes, it's a valid SK interpreter. 2007-09-03: 00:00:28 As for precedence, I think + should bind more tightly than |. 00:00:47 They're both associative, so we don't need to pay attention to that. 00:01:06 (At least, I think they are.) 00:01:29 I'm guessing right-associativity would be faster in implementation. 00:01:40 well... kinda hard to say which they are, 00:02:03 you can't parse a+(b+c) 00:02:12 hmm... 00:02:16 You can't? 00:02:38 Also, I think brackets should bind even more tightly than +. 00:02:39 what's that mean? 00:02:46 What's what mean? 00:02:55 right-associativity 00:02:59 with parsign 00:03:03 a + b + c = a + (b + c) 00:03:15 yeah... but what's that mean when you're parsing? 00:03:45 I guess it means that for a + b, you assume that a doesn't contain any "top-level" +. 00:03:58 "Top-level" meaning not inside a grouping symbol of any sort. 00:06:55 i'im pretty sure that works 00:06:57 *i'm 00:07:54 i got a bit stuck with fooCC returning "CA"+foo() first, but then realized A is "s", not "i" 00:08:59 New version: http://pastebin.ca/679378 00:10:08 Complete with multi-character regexes and working with weak alternation. 00:11:16 hmmm 00:11:43 I just got here- could someone briefly explain what that is? 00:12:11 {/``k/; a <- sk(); sk(); a} <<< isn't the a just discarded? 00:12:18 RodgerTheGreat: a parsing-based language 00:12:19 by ihope 00:12:48 oh. neato 00:14:33 {/``k/; a <- sk(); sk(); a} <<< does this return a from the whole sk expression? 00:14:46 -!- spacebark has joined. 00:15:04 oh 00:15:06 soryy 00:15:09 *sorry 00:15:11 i misread. 00:16:18 ihope: seems fine 00:16:30 i never thought it'd be that easy 00:16:48 perhaps because i didn't realize there were functions even though you mentioned them 00:17:54 ihope: what's the name of the lang? 00:18:13 -!- ehird` has quit (No route to host). 00:18:33 also, i think you could squeeze that program smaller 00:18:48 not that i'm necessarily up for the task... 00:20:03 ah 00:20:09 alright, you 00:20:17 *can't* pass parsers around 00:20:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:24:23 oerjan: look it's ski! http://pastebin.ca/679378 00:24:28 sk! 00:25:19 i'm gonna go buy something to drink now, before shops are closed -> 00:27:21 -!- spacebark has changed nick to spacebark_. 00:28:16 -!- spacebark_ has changed nick to spacebark. 00:29:58 oklopol: it tries the _last_ option first? otherwise the structure reminds me of haskell's Parsec with monads (especially the <-'s) 00:32:31 oerjan: what's this about last option first? 00:33:07 ihope: oklopol's paste 00:33:13 And yes, it's sort of a subset of Parsec :-) 00:33:19 oerjan: I wrote that program. 00:33:39 oh :) 00:33:42 -!- rutlov has joined. 00:33:51 What's this about trying the last option first? 00:34:03 that's what you would have to do in parsec 00:34:12 Why? 00:34:20 or wait... 00:34:39 i'm mistaken 00:34:41 -!- rutlov has left (?). 00:35:12 they're actually disjoint, i was confused by no ^$ or similar around k and s 00:35:32 but of course that's not needed for unlambda syntax 00:35:38 In parsec, does string "bar" <|> string "baz" work properly, or say that it was expecting r after ba? 00:36:00 no, you need to put try around string "bar" 00:36:31 an option without try is not backtracked unless it consumes no input 00:37:26 * ihope nods 00:37:46 Here, /bar/ applied to "baz" doesn't consume input. 00:37:53 this allows parsec to prune many branches for efficiency, i believe 00:38:17 Otherwise, it works the same way as Parsec when it comes to alternation, I think. 00:49:31 -!- spacebark has quit ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )"). 00:58:02 i should've known that genius an idea must have come from haskell :) 00:58:13 especially when it's ihopes 00:58:16 ihope's 00:58:25 :-) 00:58:37 uhhh energy, flow through me 00:59:02 some ed energy drink to make my night complete 00:59:27 it seems my friend's bot is still running on my network, so i can't take it offline... 00:59:30 darnz 00:59:46 i could do my germans, but BLARGH 00:59:47 Does somebody happen to feel like naming, implementing and posting-on-the-wiki my language? 00:59:54 (I probably should have thought that word order through better.) 01:00:04 heh 01:00:44 perhaps i just idle and look at this channel? 01:00:48 sounds like a plan. 01:01:23 Cool, I/O errors. 01:01:36 * ihope pushes the Small Red Button 01:01:38 ihope: what's the reason for not having first-class parsers? 01:01:51 oklopol: lack of necessity, I guess. 01:02:04 Lack of necessity, possible ease of implementation. 01:02:14 Does that actually make it any easier to implement? 01:02:38 * ihope ponders 01:02:48 Ah, maybe it's about blocks. 01:03:17 Does the block return the last parser, or run it and return what it returns? 01:03:24 hmm 01:03:27 And if the latter, how *do* you return the last parser? 01:03:43 you have separate high-level operators 01:03:57 01:04:05 ...what? 01:04:11 <> brackets for lambdas 01:04:14 or smth 01:04:25 like a=; 01:04:42 <> takes a string and returns the parser 01:04:46 Ah, I see what you mean. 01:04:48 ...I think? 01:04:50 leaving the string intact 01:04:50 hmm 01:05:01 What do you mean, takes a string and returns the parser? 01:05:05 i mean 01:05:09 everything is a parser 01:05:12 so <> must be too 01:05:18 so... it takes a string 01:05:22 because everythign does... 01:05:24 *everything 01:05:46 What parser does it return? 01:05:53 whatever is inside it 01:06:12 So <"/aaa/"> is /aaa/? 01:06:26 a=; would help in making the parser 01:06:30 Or returns /aaa/? 01:06:33 of course, that's very simple as it is 01:06:34 err 01:06:35 yes 01:06:43 that's what i meant 01:07:14 Actually, I do sort of have some... regexes that aren't taken advantage of. 01:07:22 what? 01:08:04 http://pastebin.ca/679421 01:10:05 yeah 01:10:10 that was what i meant 01:10:18 Also, I'm not at all using the anchor $, which could be... you know, user as that anchor. 01:10:29 hmm... what's that? 01:10:30 s/user/used/ 01:10:47 /$/ matches only when there's nothing left of the string. 01:11:00 ah, would that help? 01:11:18 Well, it's not required for Turing-completeness, but it'd be nice, I guess. 01:11:21 oh $ is the past-the-end character? 01:11:38 Um... 01:11:58 like 01:12:03 /$/[""] = "" 01:12:13 /$/["foo"] = immediate fail 01:12:34 /asdf$/["asdf"] = "asdf", /asdf$/["asdffd"] = fail 01:12:36 ? 01:12:42 Yeah. 01:12:50 so it's the past-the-end character 01:13:02 like, something implicitly in the end of every string 01:13:06 i mean 01:13:08 not literally. 01:13:10 Pretty much. 01:13:16 EOS. 01:13:19 yeaaaaaaaaaaaa 01:17:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_funniest_joke <<< god the third one is bad 01:17:26 What the... 01:17:46 what the what? 01:17:54 This file didn't get written. 01:18:25 eh... i see. 01:19:31 This time it got written, but it's full of ÿ. 01:19:47 whut file? 01:20:38 It's the output of a certain command. 01:21:17 That time it got written properly. 01:21:26 cool 01:24:33 A boy owned a dog that was uncommonly shaggy. Many people remarked upon its considerable shagginess. When the boy learned that there are contests for shaggy dogs, he entered his dog. The dog won first prize for shagginess in both the local and the regional competitions. The boy entered the dog in ever-larger contests, until finally he entered it in the world championship for shaggy dogs. When the judges had inspected all of the competing dogs, they remarke 01:24:40 god this is great xD 01:24:50 still laughing 01:25:28 Truncated. 01:25:50 i don't think it could get any funnier 01:25:54 Of course, you can't say "ever-larger contests". You have to say all of them. 01:26:19 of course you can, he just did. 01:26:28 i couldn't tell that joke, it's just too funny 01:26:31 xDDDDDDDD 01:26:50 you're just putting us on with that truncation. 01:27:11 I'll find the full version. 01:27:35 it's not funny when you say it out loud 01:27:39 i just tried 01:27:48 Well, hey. 01:27:49 'When the judges had inspected all of the competing dogs, they remarked about the boy's dog: "He's not so shaggy."' 01:28:24 The end? 01:29:21 oh my god these ppl have been flooding on my server... 01:29:22 Ah. 01:29:37 Yup, the end. 01:29:41 like 3 hours it's just been emptying the buffer 01:29:49 * oerjan looked it up. 01:30:07 -!- importantshock has joined. 01:30:21 i now see why you have to say all of them. 01:30:30 * oerjan is enlightened. 01:31:00 -!- importantshock_ has joined. 01:31:38 -!- importantshock has quit (Nick collision from services.). 01:31:45 -!- importantshock_ has changed nick to importantshock. 01:32:21 pretty weird out of all there people the scandinavians are here. 01:32:25 considering the time 01:32:29 *thesse 01:32:31 *these 01:33:06 something to do.. something to do.. 01:33:07 we're 'ere mate 01:33:14 oh :D 01:33:17 i've never seen ya 01:37:01 it is somewhat difficult to be transitive and symmetric (which it is) but not reflexive - the non-reflexive elements would have to be related to nothing. 01:37:16 Wong Chan-Nel strikes again. 01:39:16 -!- rutlov has joined. 01:40:15 -!- rutlov has left (?). 01:40:29 Hmm, indeed. 01:40:56 Doesn't seem like an order. 01:41:41 Oh, pff. 01:42:01 Oh, yeah, I see now. 01:42:15 Yeah, not related to anything. 01:50:13 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:16:44 CakeProphet! 02:17:00 I thought you'd, like, died or something! :-P 02:17:38 old prophets never die! or something. 02:25:18 Also, this is cool: http://1089059683/ 02:25:21 It's Google. 02:31:01 ooooold 02:34:08 -!- importantshock has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:34:31 What's old? 02:35:03 that's what he said 02:36:10 * ihope nods 02:39:15 omg 02:39:17 ...I did die 02:39:19 but I came back 02:39:31 subversion releave 2.5.5.5.0.2.1.2 02:39:32 i pooted *_* 02:39:50 ... *release 02:40:57 CakeProphet: what ihope said 02:41:03 :) 02:41:10 ...the CakeProphet project was officially orphaned... so I'm stuck on an outdated revision. 02:41:15 * bsmntbombdood bsmntbombdood * 02:41:22 CakeProphet: do you intend on dying again any time soon? 02:41:30 ...perhaps 02:41:36 these things are enigmas 02:41:43 when you do, can i sex you? 02:41:43 enigmas that are confusing... 02:41:46 ...yep 02:41:53 sweet 02:42:05 * CakeProphet was missed? 02:42:08 INTERESTING 02:42:47 the wall on which \ the prophets wrote \ is cracking \ at the seams 02:42:49 etc 02:52:33 exactly what i was thinking 02:58:53 Yeah, you were sort of missed. 03:04:11 i was mist 03:08:01 No, CakeProphet was mist. 03:08:10 Never mind that "mist" means "garbage". 03:08:27 i thought it meant fog 03:09:27 German slang term, I think. 03:09:41 mist collection 03:09:53 then it needs to be capitalized by those who do such things 03:09:55 a german gc 03:10:47 tree rewriting is much harder to codify than i thought... 03:10:48 Blah, who actually capitalizes common nouns in German? :-P 03:10:57 in irc? 03:11:09 I don't think English would be much different if we did that here. 03:11:24 I meant to capitalize all the common Nouns in that Sentence, but it didn't have any. 03:11:43 none germans awake, can't show ya, but they do use capitals 03:11:46 So I did all of them in that one instead. 03:11:48 at least some 03:12:40 Annoying that you only encounter Nouns when you're not trying to :-P 03:12:48 Should I stop capitalizing them now? 03:13:13 Hmm, I'll do it... vacuously! >:-) 03:14:37 Why Not Capitalize everything But Annoyingly Forget To capitalize Some Words? 03:15:16 why not lowercase everything? 03:15:30 that's what i generally do 03:16:23 HOW ABOUT UPPERCASE EVERYTHING? 03:16:31 BECAUSE CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL 03:17:02 I LIKE THIS 03:17:07 BUT MANY PEOPLE DON'T 03:17:17 I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY HAVE TO KINDS OF LETTERS 03:17:21 *TWO 03:17:25 EVEN WITH CRUISE CONTROL YOU STILL NEED TO STEER 03:17:51 EVEN LESS I UNDERSTAND WHY TO HAVE ONE OF THE CASES BE NON UNISIZEY 03:17:53 LIKE 03:18:02 a, y, l, WHAT'S THAT ABOUT 03:18:45 :) 03:18:47 I DON"T EVEN HAVE A CAPS LOCK KEY 03:19:41 oklopol: um, to have as much variation as possible to make your visual apparatus pick things up easier? 03:19:49 HoW aBoUt AlTeRnAtiNg? 03:20:12 -!- chton_ has changed nick to Chton. 03:20:48 oerjan: purity over readability 03:20:52 HoW aBouT oNLY CaPiTaLiZiNG CoNSoNeNTS? 03:21:06 ONE PEOPLE, ONE COLOR, ONE CASE 03:21:20 ESOTERIC POWER 03:21:30 bsmntbombdood: nOt A bAd IdEA 03:21:32 :p 03:21:36 I have a Caps Lock. . . 03:21:37 well, having consonants bigger than vocals is okay 03:21:44 I call it "Ctrl". 03:21:58 :| 03:22:10 Hmm. I've got an Idea. Let's use the traditional Notion of capitalising all Nouns in English Sentences. 03:22:12 my ctrl doesn't do that 03:22:27 pikhq: where'd that come from? 03:22:34 pikhq: let's just speak german 03:22:35 -!- rutlov has joined. 03:22:38 how about inventing an inbetween case? 03:22:52 oklopol: what languages do you speak? 03:23:02 urrrrrrrrr finnish german english swedish 03:23:09 also zx3 and lojban a bit 03:23:18 and i understand spanish a bit 03:23:23 very very bit :) 03:23:24 i meant fluent 03:23:26 bsmntbombdood: It was a feature of English until, IIRC, the late 1700's, and I *think* is still used in German. 03:23:27 oh 03:23:33 english and finnish pretty fluent. 03:23:35 -!- rutlov has left (?). 03:23:37 it is pikhq 03:23:50 swedish and german i can have a conversation in 03:24:15 scandinavian languages ftw 03:24:34 i have both swedish and german matriculation in a few weeks (end-of-high-school-test) 03:25:12 bsmntbombdood: why do you ask? 03:25:18 just wondering 03:25:43 i bet oerjan knows more than one language 03:25:48 i bet pikhq doesn't 03:25:54 :P 03:26:04 i'm gonna learn them all 03:26:10 bsmntbombdood: Hontou zya nai. 03:26:24 are you fluent in espranto? 03:26:32 No. 03:26:35 That was Japanese. 03:26:44 ...or japanese? 03:26:49 (romanised; my IME doesn't like my terminal) 03:26:51 yes, and it's not friendly to curse pikhq 03:27:02 No, I'm merely a 4th-year student. 03:27:08 Chton: "Not true" is cursing?!? 03:27:16 just guessing :p 03:27:22 i bet everyone in here that's not from the US or canada or the UK speaks more than one language 03:27:35 Quite possible. 03:27:36 i'd say that's a pretty solid bet 03:27:59 well, the native one and english are quite hard to evade... 03:28:08 true 03:28:21 doubly so if you live in a country with 3 languages 03:28:38 Of course, when English is native, it's hard to evade English. ;) 03:28:44 :) 03:28:59 bsmntbombdood: i don't speak german or swedish that fluently, but i do have a prety native accent in both! 03:29:17 in germany, they said i sounded like a native for a while 03:29:30 * oklopol starts bragging when it's tired, it seems 03:29:30 I look native until I speak in Germany. :p 03:30:02 lol 03:30:17 *pretty 03:30:46 And I also get the curious property of looking vaguely English, as well. . . 03:30:57 Damned America, making mutts of us all. :p 03:31:15 i look vaguely SUPER SEXY 03:31:26 Very vaguely. 03:31:27 only very very vaguely 03:31:48 almost, but not entirely unlike SUPER SEXY 03:32:01 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out). 03:32:10 i'm pretty sexy 03:32:24 ! 03:32:26 <-- almost, but not enirely GOING TO SLEEP 03:32:27 Huh? 03:32:39 EgoBot caught my lie 03:35:25 i am totally SUPER SEXY 03:35:36 yeah, we've all seen your pics 03:36:22 that old guy with the beard, right? 03:37:06 i envy his beard 03:49:18 Bow. 03:49:50 Wow? 03:50:40 How? 03:51:01 Bow before me!!! 03:52:04 no, after 03:52:30 Now? 03:53:39 Blow 03:54:26 Good show 03:54:48 Down low 04:03:36 i have a roll of duck tape 04:03:39 is awesome 04:05:28 omg i got it working 04:07:11 what? 04:08:26 trewriter 04:08:40 a tree rewriting quickie i'm doing in python 04:09:55 write a general one 04:10:05 what do you mean? 04:10:24 i'd like to make it not a language, but a python library 04:10:32 is it general? 04:10:35 but currently i'm parsing the rule from strings, at least 04:10:40 i'm not sure what that is. 04:10:44 that's why i asked 04:11:13 i mean like a function that takes a set of rules and a tree, and returns the rewritten tree 04:11:39 def trewrite(rules,data): 04:11:42 yep 04:11:50 that's what it does 04:12:03 rules is also just a python list 04:12:05 how do you specify the rules? 04:12:06 actually 04:12:15 rules_str=""" 04:12:15 ["k",a,b]:a 04:12:15 """ 04:12:18 k combinator 04:12:21 *-actually 04:12:45 [[[('r', 'k'), 'a', 'b'], 'a']] 04:12:49 currently becomes that 04:12:55 you mean [["k", a], b] 04:13:07 well, should be, yes. 04:13:22 but... that wouldn't work yet 04:13:28 so it's like that until it will. 04:16:35 -!- oklofok has joined. 04:16:44 i did the disco :< 04:17:07 /disco makes you do a little dance! 04:17:11 * bsmntbombdood dances * 04:18:02 * oerjan too 04:19:41 hmm, gimme something in unlambda again... 04:19:50 i'll try out my sk-interpreter 04:19:55 rules_str=""" 04:19:55 [["k",a],b]:a 04:19:55 [[["s",a],b],c]:[[a,c],[b,c]] 04:19:55 """ 04:21:18 actually, i was mainly going for a nice support for making the tree rewriting *rules*, but the actual tree rewriting turned out to be quite tricky 04:21:24 or then it's just all the tired. 04:21:56 >>> pl ``^a^b$a 04:22:05 >>> pl `^a^b$a 04:22:14 ... 04:22:23 i'm fairly sure that should work 04:22:29 >>> pl i 04:22:30 i 04:22:40 >>> pl `ii 04:22:41 `ii 04:22:46 >>> pl `^a$a 04:22:49 >>> pl `^a$ai 04:22:49 `ii 04:23:03 >>> pl ``^b^a$aii 04:23:03 ```kiii 04:23:14 >>> ul ```kiii 04:23:15 -> i 04:23:28 >>> ul ```kiil 04:23:28 -> l 04:26:09 whut 04:26:11 it works 04:26:13 :O 04:27:41 [[["k","i"],"i"],"l"] -> "l" 04:27:52 hmm... something harder, with "s"? 04:28:04 please gimme, i'm all coded out 04:28:37 ```sii``sii 04:28:41 :D 04:28:49 * oerjan whistles innocently 04:28:49 something that won't crash 04:29:01 guess i could check if it crashes 04:30:29 RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in cmp 04:30:43 can you give me something a bit more complicated, but not toooo much? 04:31:02 * oerjan needs to calculate it first 04:31:12 i don't understand how i don't have any sk code nearby, sk is basically all i do :D 04:31:56 and random python quickies 04:32:34 ````s``s`ksk``s``s`ksk`kiki 04:33:23 what should that do? 04:33:34 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out). 04:33:45 and... whut? :| 04:33:48 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklopol. 04:33:49 indeed. 04:34:06 i think it should return `k`ki 04:34:52 hmm... that's a bit hard to manually convert for python... 04:35:00 i guess it's not 04:35:05 <- tider 04:35:08 riedt 04:35:11 tdire 04:35:15 wait... i made it too complicated 04:35:31 it's fine if you do the conversion :) 04:35:49 i could make a convertor, but that'd take longer than necessary, methinks 04:35:57 >>> ski->py 04:36:04 well 04:36:08 >>> sk-py 04:36:15 if you wanna keep convertors similar 04:36:17 okokoko 04:37:25 -!- cherez has joined. 04:38:47 [[[[s,[[s,[k,s]],k]],[[s,[[s,[k,s]]],k],[k,i]]],k],i] 04:38:49 i think 04:38:55 and then strings out of those 04:39:33 ````s``s`kskiki 04:39:37 >>> ul ````s``s`ksk``s``s`ksk`kiki 04:39:38 -> ('k', ('k', 'i')) 04:39:44 is that right? 04:39:48 `k`ki 04:39:48 i forgot all the shortcuts 04:39:57 i hope so 04:39:59 I hate you and your SKI calculus. 04:40:26 fuck 04:40:27 ['k', [[[['s', [['s', ['k', 's']]], 'k'], ['k', 'i']], 'k'], 'i']] 04:40:30 failed :< 04:40:31 now you can try `` ```s``s`kski``s``s`kski ki 04:40:38 or then i failed. 04:40:44 >>> ul ````s``s`kskiki 04:40:44 -> ('k', ('k', 'i')) 04:40:50 i'll try that 04:41:11 that should be the same, i forgot some shortcuts the first time 04:42:24 ['k', ['k', 'i']] <<< kay, now worked 04:42:30 was most likely my error then... 04:42:35 #````s``s`ksk``s``s`ksk`kiki 04:42:35 #[[[["s",[["s",["k","s"]],"k"]],[["s",[["s",["k","s"]]],"k"],["k","i"]]],"k"],"i"] 04:43:04 try converting that if you please 04:43:12 i don't feel like doing it again... 04:43:20 and fuck, school soon 04:43:35 it contains the same subparts 04:44:11 * oerjan doesn't really feel like doing it either 04:44:14 :P 04:44:18 i'll redo it. 04:45:46 try `` ```s``s`kski``s``s`kski ki instead, it's just the shortest version with a part doubled 04:45:57 [[[[s,[[s,[k,s]],k]],[[s,[[s,[k,s]],k]],[k,i]]],k],i] 04:46:06 (and ` prepended) 04:46:11 okay... 04:46:16 one tiny difference. 04:46:20 let's try that 04:47:07 ['k', ['k', 'i']] <<< yeas fucking omg ?!? 04:47:12 it worked, that is 04:47:34 my first suggestion? 04:47:38 yep 04:47:42 i don't need to try anything anymore, if one random program works, everything works :) 04:47:46 that's the beauty of sk 04:48:04 your first suggestion, indeed 04:48:07 how did you do that? 04:48:25 `k`ki and then synonym replacementz? 04:49:47 hmm... if the "from" expression is more complex, it prolly fails... i'll try to implement "append" 04:50:13 ^f^x`$f`$f$x and then abstraction implementation 04:50:45 then apply to k i 04:51:17 >>> pl ^f^x`$f`$f$x 04:51:18 ``s``s`ks``s`kki``s``s`ks``s`kki`ki 04:51:39 some day... 04:51:48 that is with no shortcuts at all 04:51:57 i assume 04:52:15 it does absolutely no optimization 04:52:26 just the transformation described on the unlambda page 04:55:41 ['append', [[[[[[['nil']]]]]]], [[[['nil']]]]] 04:55:41 ===> 04:55:41 [[[[[[[[[[['nil']]]]]]]]]]] 04:55:43 omg 04:55:52 i can't believe it's working that well 04:56:01 ["append",[a],b]:["append",a,[b]] 04:56:01 ["append","nil",b]:b 04:56:14 that was like a 1 hour project 04:56:37 and that's better than scheme 04:56:44 i mean, better than my scheme. 04:57:14 >>> sch "this is so sucky, there aren't even strings yet." 04:57:15 None 04:59:07 hmm... can't think of anything else i can do with that in the 20 minutes i have left 04:59:16 guess i should start making that better. 05:01:02 have to make a syntax for specifying something macroish 05:01:20 like "only match top level" 05:01:58 afk 05:08:57 basically, this is thue with trees 05:09:01 like... thrue 05:09:02 ["append",[a],b]:["append",a,[b]] 05:09:02 ["append","nil",b]:b 05:09:02 ["append",[[[[[[["nil"]]]]]]],[[[["nil"]]]]] 05:13:22 ["append",[a],b]:["append",a,[b]] 05:13:22 ["append",[],b]:b 05:13:22 [append,[[[[[[[]]]]]]],[[[[]]]]] 05:13:23 xD 05:13:28 ingenious 05:13:37 whooops 05:13:43 i wasn't gonna put that here 05:13:59 my first channel fail \o/ 05:14:09 oerjan: now i know how you feel 05:14:38 it's pretty bad 05:16:08 i gotta leave now, cya -> 05:18:56 -!- rutlov has joined. 05:19:56 -!- rutlov has left (?). 05:25:33 I'd like to inform Sukoshi that it's been one *year* since the Esolang contest, and its still not been judged. 05:25:39 (hell, am I the only entrant?) 05:29:01 i am sure the contest is being conducted according to all relevant esolang traditions. 05:29:28 which, unfortunately, don't include actually completing the judging. 05:29:28 That's a bad sign. ;) 05:48:07 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:48:11 -!- oklofok has joined. 05:48:18 -!- theoros has quit (Connection timed out). 05:58:37 -!- oerjan has quit ("Carrot Cake Craving"). 07:01:28 It is now PEBBLEversary. 07:02:57 woo 07:03:18 Also, #esoteric is getting some holidays. w00t. 07:05:11 I would like to thank the US government for giving me the day off to celebrate this momentous occasion. 07:05:37 you can't say they never did anything for you 07:06:07 I never said they did *nothing*, just that they do the wrong things. :p 07:35:55 so, how are the PEBBLE-fest activities continuing? 07:36:19 I shall begin the festivities with the traditional PEBBLE sport: competitive sleeping. 07:36:33 (I'm lazy ;)) 07:36:52 how do you win? 07:36:54 my reticular activating system has still deserted me 07:41:51 bsmntbombdood: You don't. It's not much of a competiton. :) 07:41:53 G'night. 07:45:27 'night 07:45:31 * RodgerTheGreat sighs 07:46:45 why? 07:51:00 because I'm having difficulty going to sleep 07:53:52 -!- rutlov has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:52 -!- rutlov has left (?). 08:01:52 * RodgerTheGreat tries bed again 09:35:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 10:07:16 -!- ehird` has joined. 10:23:44 #thelang didn't last long 10:23:45 :-) 10:31:01 -!- ehird` has left (?). 10:31:03 -!- ehird` has joined. 10:54:19 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Connection timed out). 11:04:02 anyone awake? 11:09:37 -!- ehird` has left (?). 11:09:39 -!- ehird` has joined. 11:25:07 -!- ihope__ has joined. 11:25:16 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope. 12:16:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:20:58 -!- RedDak has joined. 14:12:31 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:12:59 -!- ehird` has joined. 14:17:35 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:24:32 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:57:33 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("haaaaaaaaaa"). 15:12:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:16:26 * ihope ponders instructions 15:16:38 Assembly-type. 15:17:11 Hmm, a bit shift left/if instruction would be nice. 15:34:48 -!- jix_ has joined. 15:48:09 -!- theoros has joined. 16:47:25 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:58:03 Cheers. . . 16:58:52 Cheers? 17:02:47 It's PEBBLEversary. 17:05:17 * oerjan throws PEBBLES at everyone to celebrate 17:07:31 =D 17:08:03 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 17:08:16 write an article on how pebble works to celebrate 17:08:26 it'll help aspiring compile-to-bf language writers like me :p 17:13:42 It's in the PEBBLE tarball. 17:20:49 Well write a longer one and put it on the web 17:20:50 :< 17:20:56 i like my html 17:21:05 I call it "pebble.tcl" 17:21:12 Well phooey 17:21:16 I can't read tcl 17:21:19 I want a theoretical paper 17:25:06 =( 17:27:35 Sorry, I'm lousy at theory. 17:27:56 I follow a "git 'er done" philosophy to coding ATM. :p 17:45:35 i just want info about pebble v_v 17:48:52 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 17:49:12 Yay, PEBBLES! 18:00:09 I'm open for questions on this magnificent holiday. 18:00:24 hm? 18:02:30 -!- ehird` has quit. 18:05:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:07:43 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 18:07:52 i has a bot! 18:08:02 oh, no, not again 18:15:36 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood`. 18:15:52 -!- bsmntbombdood` has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 18:16:09 -!- jix_ has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:16:25 -!- jix__ has joined. 18:24:40 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:40:03 Somebody translate http://pastebin.ca/679421 to C or something. :-P 18:40:49 what language is it/ 18:40:50 ? 18:41:28 I haven't given it a name. 18:41:38 Perhaps it could be called Redivider. 18:41:59 Even though it has nothing to do with palindromes or redivision. 18:42:31 it can't be converted to C unless we know the semantics 18:42:42 Indeed. 18:43:12 SK calculus. I think I'll come up with an interpreter in Haskell. 18:43:29 (Because it's impossible to write an interpreter in any other language. :-P) 18:43:34 * SimonRC watches Atlantis 18:45:28 -!- Tritonio has joined. 18:59:50 My. I'm having a weird urge to play Lincity. 19:00:09 I learned PostScript last night. fun stuff. 19:00:11 I'm getting an urge to get good at Bos Wars. 19:00:30 Ironic(al)ly enough, I only have it on my Windows machine. 19:02:27 learn postscript in one night? 19:02:56 write a tex compiler 19:06:45 I dunno 19:07:29 hello everyone... 19:12:08 hi 20:03:34 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 20:25:49 -!- RedDak has joined. 21:20:37 -!- jix__ has quit ("CommandQ"). 21:31:16 -!- ihope has quit ("http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.08.09"). 21:53:36 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:33:09 -!- ehird` has joined. 22:36:00 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 22:37:05 * ehird` is talking from xubuntu -- running on an intel iMac :) 22:37:10 wireless internet and all! 22:40:15 * SimonRC opines that OTTD rocks 22:48:55 ottd? 22:56:07 JFGI 22:56:23 Grow a Google reflex already. 22:56:54 SimonRC, alternatively, try and be less condescending and tell people instead of directing all queries to a website 22:57:09 i hear it's called "kindness" 22:57:37 ok 22:57:49 Open Transport Tycoon Deluxe. 22:57:51 A Game 22:57:59 based on Transport Tycoon Deluxe. 22:58:05 kinda 22:58:06 sounds cool 22:58:12 addictive 22:58:26 looks cool, but light on th CPU 22:58:49 cpus are for using, people =p 22:59:00 sounds almost as much fun as my duck-duck-goose task scheduler. 22:59:09 lol 22:59:16 RodgerTheGreat, exciting 22:59:20 you actually implemented that? 22:59:20 RodgerTheGreat, i'll tell EA games 22:59:35 not nearly as exciting as the musical chairs version, although it has some minor issues 22:59:46 race conditions? 23:00:17 implementing the part where all the processes get up and run around is a trick 23:00:25 haha 23:00:36 integrate it with mpd or amarok or something 23:01:38 I know, you could have all the processors in the machien randomly keep re-picking (but not running) processes, until an interupt stops them all and any processes having a CPU at the time run. 23:01:51 which sucks if there is only 1 CPU 23:02:06 who wants to help out the planned implang-continuation :) 23:02:14 #testlang 23:02:32 what is that? 23:02:51 a very very simple conlang planned over irc 23:03:04 basically you join, look at the language it is now, and discuss it. 23:03:21 i started that retry of the idea a day or so ago with ihope 23:03:30 there's also the possibility of a russian-roulette task manager (made all the more amusing if you have a CPU capable of barrel multitasking) 23:04:21 ehird`: is this in any way associated with the Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory? 23:04:27 RodgerTheGreat, no? 23:04:33 conlang = natural language 23:04:34 aw. :( 23:05:02 why? 23:06:36 =/ 23:09:35 um 23:10:04 surely conlang = constructed language? 23:10:09 yes 23:10:11 but a natural one 23:10:16 not programming 23:10:52 anyway, you should join in :p 23:13:03 :) 23:13:12 SimonRC: you could help kickstart it 23:13:32 where? 23:13:36 #testlang 23:13:38 er wait no 23:13:39 #thelang 23:23:44 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:49:53 anyone else want to help out? ;) 23:53:58 -!- dibblego has quit (Remote closed the connection). 2007-09-04: 00:04:00 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:49:37 Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory <<< i realized the first letters are the beginning of the alphabet! only seen that about 100 times 00:52:21 hrm 00:52:52 i wonder if a [0-9]* password is easier to remember than a [a-z]* or [A-z]* password 00:54:08 i don't think so 03:08:55 -!- cherez has left (?). 03:17:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:53:36 -!- simplechat has joined. 03:53:50 yay! go brainfuck! 03:59:00 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:00:26 -!- g4lt-sb100 has joined. 04:00:32 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Client Quit). 04:01:44 simplechat: Not hard to do. 04:02:30 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:03:10 .. 04:19:23 lol 04:20:28 ,[.,] 04:47:47 oklofok: we designed it that way, actually 04:51:53 we had "Blind Collaborative Design", and then I came up with "Adjudicated", and everyone else contributed words to build the mighty non-acronym we have today 05:02:57 was i here that time? 05:03:10 or is it over a year old? 05:03:19 or whatever time i've been here 05:05:21 i've read everything people have said here except two weeks i were away and a few nights there was so much logs i only glansed through (mostly immi-originated...) 05:08:40 adjudicated = something that is not judged? 05:08:45 hmm... 05:09:00 i'm pretty sure i've known that word 05:10:11 I think it was a bit under a year. 05:11:37 hmm, adjudicate is the opposide of that 05:11:49 * oklofok fail-slaps itself 05:25:11 http://www.thefreedictionary.com/adjudicated 05:26:25 i use answers.com for dictionary/google/wikipedia 05:39:56 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:48:07 omg a java course about objects starts today... this is gonna be mind-blowing 05:50:45 RodgerTheGreat: btw, it's kinda obvious you designed it that way, the odds of that happening are 1/244140625 (though odds of something improbable happening in general are much bigger), plus it's almost as improbable no one would actually notice it at some point and claim it was his plan all along. 05:51:32 and classes start in 10 minutes, it's 10 degrees outside, i don't own a jacket, i have to go by bike and it's a 7 km trip 05:51:37 this is gonna be fun. 05:51:39 -> 05:51:50 (black t-shirts ftw) 06:01:31 light your shirt on fire! 06:05:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 06:06:29 i've been reading colorado law 06:06:39 it's pretty blech 06:13:17 using a recording device in a movie theater is a misdemeanor 06:14:50 minimum wage for minors is 15% less than for unminors 06:29:40 -!- simplechat has quit ("There coming!"). 06:49:50 -!- theoros has quit (Connection timed out). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:18:34 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:19:24 -!- GregorR has joined. 08:38:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:22:51 -!- SimonRC has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:22:55 -!- SimonRC has joined. 09:33:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lunch"). 10:38:45 -!- ehird` has joined. 10:39:04 ciretose - like comatose, but induced by fucking of the brain 11:38:47 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:39:27 -!- Sgeo has joined. 11:40:12 Has anyone done anything with PSOX since I last talked about it? (not including now ofc) 11:42:59 -!- ehird` has joined. 11:44:24 Hi ehird` 11:45:52 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit). 11:46:03 -!- ehird` has joined. 11:47:05 re 11:49:10 Anyone here? 12:03:06 no 12:03:27 * Sgeo pokes GregorR 12:03:34 i am not here 12:31:40 -!- jix_ has joined. 12:32:13 Hi jix_ 12:32:43 moin 13:44:30 -!- ehird`_ has joined. 14:05:15 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:50:05 -!- jix_ has changed nick to jix. 15:18:57 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:19:13 -!- jix has joined. 16:04:28 Sgeo: i don't know about the others, but i usually let people finish their own projects :) 16:04:37 unless PSOX is already ready 16:04:51 Any comments on the newlines issue? 16:05:19 Some esolang interpreters might require newlines before they can push output or take in input 16:05:22 or something like that 16:05:37 So I'm going to need to make 0x0A mandatory after every command 16:06:23 gotta leave :< 16:06:39 -!- ololobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:07:14 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:23:04 -!- oklofok has quit ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )"). 16:56:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:18:24 sebbu: no, you just create a 0x0A command that does nothing, but can be used to kick the interpreter into outputting. 17:18:47 then programs use the 0x0A command like a kind of flush command 17:20:35 except it needs to be present on input as well 17:21:28 I was only thinking about commands 17:21:42 ah, I have another idea... 17:22:32 the 0x0A command could cause the PSOX layer to feed you a newline, thereby flushing output and input in that order 17:22:47 SimonRC, now, do this over multiple architectures and endiannesses 17:23:31 ...remembering that they all have different reserved opcodes 17:23:51 eh? 17:24:00 no they don't 17:24:13 PSOX is platform-independent 17:24:26 okay, do a 0x80 on a sparc. hint, it's not a null 17:24:36 nop ratehr 17:25:27 WTF 17:25:36 what the hel has that got to do with PSOX? 17:25:43 there is going to be an optional translation layer needed anyhow. 17:25:58 consider original INTERCAL, for example. 17:26:27 roman numerals in one direction, and i don't quite remember in the other. 17:26:34 how do opcodes relate to a layer that allows bytestream-to-bytestream programs to do system-specific things? 17:26:59 oerjan: input was digit names in a variaety of weird languages 17:29:38 some languages, such as unlambda, have most character I/O possible but it is so awkward that you might want a different encoding for efficiency. 18:01:43 * Sgeo was thinking that the client would be forced to do 0x0A after every command, and server sends 0x0A after every response 18:03:35 But 0x0A doesn't necessarily indicate the end of the command or response 18:04:41 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:04:50 Hi sebbu 18:04:54 sebbu2, 18:21:52 > mapAccumR (flip divMod) 10000 [60,60] 18:21:59 grr 18:23:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 18:39:01 -!- galt has joined. 18:54:05 -!- g4lt-sb100 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:02:28 oerjan: implementing... haskell? 19:02:52 just wrong channel again 19:06:50 -!- importantshock has joined. 19:09:25 oerjan should implement haskell 19:12:10 it'd be the weirdest haskell ever 19:16:21 why? 19:19:39 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 19:29:27 * bsmntbombdood needs to learn pi-calculus 19:35:19 * bsmntbombdood also needs to go to class now 19:55:58 -!- galt has changed nick to g4lt-mordant. 19:58:13 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:09:51 -!- Tritonio has joined. 20:30:03 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 20:35:55 -!- RedDak has joined. 20:55:10 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 21:06:10 -!- rabidfurby has joined. 21:09:36 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:29:30 -!- oklopol has joined. 21:30:25 -!- ehird`_ has left (?). 21:30:28 -!- ehird`_ has joined. 21:30:33 #thelang anyone? 21:33:26 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 21:41:30 -!- CakeProphet has changed nick to SevenInchBread. 21:52:10 current projects: brainfuck-interpreter in True, and ski interpreter in Texas instruments TI-84 21:52:28 (or just TI-84, since ti is prolly texas instruments...) 21:52:49 is there an ski interpreter in an imperative language? 21:52:55 i haven't seen one :| 22:01:15 youd have to implement a callstack and stuff 22:01:53 i implemented a list stack in TI-84 22:02:06 you can push and pop arbitrary lists 22:02:46 it prints the numbers as pixels on the graph 22:03:27 yes, i know there are matrices there... but mine is cewler. 22:11:57 because you can watch as your ski program evaluates 22:19:47 ti-84 basic is TERRIBLE 22:19:51 yeah :D 22:19:53 that's the challenge 22:20:02 my ti-89 has a c compiler 22:20:12 oooh 22:20:22 i should write ski in C as an excersize 22:20:24 after 8 minutes of silence, i answer in 3 seconds... some might say that's sad. 22:20:40 hmm... that might help making it in the basic 22:20:47 *in 22:20:51 c compiler? 22:20:52 probably 22:20:53 oh, 89 22:20:55 c compiler 22:21:04 the basic is better too 22:21:24 wonder if ti-84 has c... 22:21:34 i could... write an interpreter in the basic!" 22:21:35 :D 22:21:48 oh my god it's pain writing that 22:22:12 what's 89 basic like? 22:22:21 i mean, what's different 22:25:36 i don't remember 22:25:53 haven't coded in it since i got the calculator 22:41:09 I wrote a BF interpreter for my hp 48. 22:42:20 i want an hp 48 22:42:48 you sure do 22:44:07 i want an hp 48g or whatever it was, and a ti-89 22:44:17 :( but must spend money on less useless things.. 22:47:00 =) 22:47:15 I got mine as a birthday present. 22:51:15 it's pretty trivial doing bf for ti-84 22:51:30 i don't know about hp 48 22:51:37 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 22:52:26 my interpreter was probably not very efficient 22:52:33 it's universally trivial 22:52:34 it took five minutes to run Hello world 22:52:43 bsmntbombdood: no 22:52:55 a bf interpreter in bf is not trivial 22:53:02 yes it is 22:53:10 that isn't hard, making it in ski is hard 22:53:12 that's because nothing in bf is trivial 22:53:17 oklopol: no it's not 22:53:22 really? 22:53:25 i never tried 22:53:42 you just write it in functional scheme, and have your computer do the abstraction elemination for you 22:53:44 i guess if you rip off list presentations from somewhere 22:53:57 haha, trues :P 22:55:47 i still think that doesn't make it any easier to do in ski 22:56:01 because the program will be immensely complex 22:56:18 no it won't 22:56:28 write it in scheme 22:56:34 it will be <25 lines 22:57:14 abstraction eliminated it of course will be very long 22:57:54 3=14 22:58:05 i think being able to make scheme -> ski, and therefore calling making bf in ski easy is pretty much like saying making a bf interpreter in ski is easy because you can just download it from the net 22:58:21 just because you can get the code from somewhere easily isn't really *trivially making it* 22:58:22 no it's not 22:58:33 not if you wrote the abstraction eliminator and the interpreter 22:59:06 if you wrote the abstraction eliminator in ski and encoded your scheme in the ski program, true, that's making it in ski 22:59:36 Hey wow I forgot about kajirbot 23:00:53 -!- KajirBot has joined. 23:00:56 .feed 23:00:57 thanks :) but have you got cyanide? 23:00:59 .feed cyanide 23:01:00 thank you :) 23:01:03 :) 23:01:14 -!- KajirBot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:01:15 :D 23:01:19 * ehird`_ adds a dictionary 23:01:46 -!- ololobot has joined. 23:02:29 * oklopol has a dictionary 23:02:37 dodes dictionary.com have an api 23:02:54 yes, http 23:02:57 Specifically I need a python api for dictionary (or a rest api is fine too) 23:03:04 But not web scraping. 23:03:17 http sucks 23:03:24 http doesn't suck 23:03:25 html sucks 23:03:41 http sucks. 23:03:46 no it doesn't 23:03:47 justify that 23:03:53 it's text based 23:04:01 who the fuck needs that nowadays 23:04:15 .. 23:04:32 you enjoy spouting off garbage just to have your opinion differ from everyone else in here, don't you? 23:04:34 EVERYTHING SHOULD BE IN ONE BIG DATA STRUCTURE 23:04:39 no no 23:04:59 i'm pretty sure everyone here thinks it sucks. 23:05:07 except i now know you don't 23:05:20 bsmntbombdood: Does HTTP suck, or does HTML suck 23:05:28 html 23:05:33 the main problem is coding interface into content 23:05:46 that's html. 23:05:48 not http. 23:06:14 indeed :) 23:06:26 i have to think a bit. 23:06:55 -!- ehird`_ has changed nick to ehird`. 23:07:27 there's a lot of text encoding issues i hate about it, but that might just be php originated 23:08:57 thats html 23:09:27 HYPER text PREprocESSOR! 23:10:00 well, i guess all i can hate about http is how it's used, which is basically hating html. 23:11:35 and also, i do think it's be much nicer to have a protocol over http to be able to skip the useless serializing part 23:11:39 i'm sure there is. 23:11:44 *it'd 23:13:07 what 23:13:14 have you even researched http 23:13:15 also, i think the whole layer system could've been done a lot better, it's verrry ugly 23:13:18 somewhat 23:14:48 i'll have to read te rfc i guess. 23:15:41 http seems to already support that. 23:15:47 about first line on the rfc :) 23:19:52 -!- rutlov has joined. 23:23:52 -!- rutlov has left (?). 23:29:39 this is much better than what cisco has taught me 23:30:10 i'll read the spec and see if i still have something to complain 23:35:38 *the 23:42:11 -!- g4lt-mordant has changed nick to unbewont. 23:44:30 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:49:40 -!- ehird` has quit. 2007-09-05: 00:03:42 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:03:51 Hi all 00:04:04 hi 00:05:23 * Sgeo goes to put newlines in the spec 00:05:55 auto-fill-region 00:06:09 hm? 00:16:19 -!- importantshock has quit (Connection timed out). 00:40:09 This media type 00:40:09 UST NOT be used unless the sender knows that the recipient can arse 00:40:09 it; 00:40:32 (was trying to put quotes in, but indeed, mirc sucks.) 00:45:36 the more i read the rfc, the more i feel i was right, this is pretty horrible 00:53:46 i hate everything when i'm this tired, but god those rfc's... i could just strangle and rip them 00:54:18 What RFC is this? 00:57:53 http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2616.html 00:58:26 there's a fun paragraph full of typoes :) 01:01:43 okay... i've now seen both the alternative forms "nescesarry" and "nessicary" for "necessary" :P 01:02:03 guess that's a hard word to type 01:05:26 Typos can make an incredible difference.. "referer" 01:07:02 how come? 01:07:25 i mean, what did "referer" mean 01:08:10 The HTTP header "referer" is called "referer" and not "referrer" due to a typo 01:08:29 ARGH! 01:08:43 should the Print NUL function end with 0x0A? 01:08:52 Like every other function in PSOX will? 01:12:24 i thought "referer" was just the american version of "referrer" 01:12:42 that's prolly what other misspellers think, so that's no excuse for not knowing that 01:13:46 * Sgeo reconsiders.. not sure if it was a typo or spelling error.. 01:14:47 most likely a spelling error 01:15:26 it's possible a lot of people don't know something like that, but not that probably they wouldn't see the lack of an "r" when used that for a while... 01:16:41 it's not *impossible* they've just typoed it a 100 times, but it's not very probable either 01:17:24 "Referer is a common misspelling of the word referrer. It is so common, in fact, that it made it into the official specification of HTTP – the communication protocol of the World Wide Web – and has therefore become the standard industry spelling when discussing HTTP referers." 01:17:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_Referer 01:17:49 yeah, read that 01:18:48 The problem is that the RFC bureaucracy does not include a bureau of proofreading. ;) 01:19:08 lol 01:19:23 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 01:19:27 argh, the only way to really demonstrate the newline thing is with an example, methinks 01:22:53 "you know i negotiated my way through negotiator training, i should've failed the hell out of that class, that's how good i am" 01:51:25 Is this sane? 01:51:27 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-newline-demo.b 01:53:08 * Sgeo needs to leave at 10PM EST 01:56:04 * Sgeo pokes pikhq 01:57:22 * Sgeo urgently pokes pikhq and SimonRC and anyone else 01:57:42 minminor.... 01:58:07 minimum minor version the client (the BF code) will work with 02:00:03 is that cat? 02:00:28 yes 02:00:56 Works correctly with nulls; 0x00 0x02 0x00 is the "safe print character" function 02:01:02 quite a lot of overhead, i hope its other functionality makes it worth it :) 02:01:40 it's quite long... you could at least have a "safe print characterS" function as well 02:01:53 ..how would that work? 02:02:23 {n} 02:02:53 basically, just that you could implicitly prefix that 000200 for the next n characters 02:03:39 i mean, just would be nice if you didn't have to do 4 times more outputs than you are actually using, if you're piping large amounts of data 02:05:19 * pikhq is poked 02:05:27 Sgeo: I assume you have a spec working? 02:05:55 A demo of how I think newlines could be handled, and the newline thing hastily added to the spec 02:06:17 Err. Implementation? 02:06:26 No implementation yet. 02:06:42 A tutorial on how to get pipes working with Python would be nice 02:08:40 * Sgeo puts oklopol's idea into http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-output.txt 02:09:35 Would there be call for a function that could take an amount of bytes to safeprint larger than 255? 02:09:46 Can't hurt 02:10:43 :) 02:10:56 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-output.txt 02:11:00 Hi CakeProphet 02:12:04 Is my way of handling the newline issue sane? 02:12:09 * Sgeo wonders if GregorR is here 02:19:12 * Sgeo pokes 02:25:30 ...what? 02:25:32 -checks- 02:26:22 what newline issue? 02:26:25 * CakeProphet wasn't paying attention 02:28:43 -!- unbewont has changed nick to g4lt-mordant. 02:29:22 Some interpreters might not show output until a newline is output 02:29:37 and they might not receive input until a newline is put in 02:29:46 * Sgeo pokes CakeProphet 02:51:21 CHOROFLAM 02:53:08 hm? 02:53:18 GregorR, did you see how I handled the newline situation? 02:53:26 does this rag smell like chloroform to you? 02:58:11 G'night all ;( 02:58:19 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 02:59:00 Choroflam = http://www.codu.org/choroflam/ 02:59:08 ...does anyone here play starcraft? 03:00:11 GregorR: include a string-plucking algorithm 03:00:17 otherwise, fail 03:14:10 ...anyone? 03:36:17 bsmntbombdood: ... It's not a stringed instrument. 03:36:45 ok, reed-blowing algorithm? 03:37:17 because plain sawtooth just sounds bad 03:44:48 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:15:22 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 05:44:08 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:26:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:44:41 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 08:45:12 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:23:44 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 10:12:02 -!- ehird` has joined. 10:37:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Man who stand in frond of car is tired. Man who stand behind car is exhausted."). 10:52:32 * ehird` wonders what to add to KajirBot 11:28:21 porn is a safe choise 11:29:59 beepiano owns choroflam 11:30:17 and sawtooth sounds awesome 11:30:24 naturally 11:31:00 but for maximum comfort, i'd go for square 11:31:36 how about a dictionary. 11:31:37 XD 11:31:43 well that too :) 11:32:03 what was kajirbot in again? 11:32:34 ? 11:32:35 #esoteric. 11:32:49 language, i mean 11:32:58 python 11:33:03 clean, simple, nice python 11:33:04 -!- KajirBot has joined. 11:33:25 it's an incredibly simple yet powerful irc bot/client lib - kajirc, and the bot based on it - KajirBot 11:33:35 kajirc is built to fit KajirBot, not the other way round 11:34:00 kajirbot right now is 124 lines, including whitespace, comments etc, and kajirc is 139 11:34:02 .help 11:34:02 feed, help, kill, ps, q, tell, time 11:34:27 it has a command system and a regexp matcher, both using threaded callbacks 11:34:59 ololobot is 49 line 11:35:01 *lines 11:35:12 ah 11:35:36 the actual ololobot file would prolly be similar to yourkajirc 11:35:41 *your kajirc 11:35:50 kajirc and kajirbot are pretty intertwined 11:36:05 actually, kajirc is just one class 11:36:08 kajirc.Bot 11:36:12 that's it 11:36:27 it gives a pythonic irc interface, and the callback system 11:36:39 def time(self, info): 11:36:39 self.privmsg(info['channel'], 'Right now, it is %s GMT' % 11:36:39 time.strftime('%Y-%m-%d, %H:%M')) 11:36:42 that's an example callback. 11:36:55 "command" callbacks (PREFIXname arg ...) get info as the first param 11:37:03 which has channel, user, etc 11:38:07 http://pastie.textmate.org/private/n2vsy1uxvpg6ppfz9t <-- this is kajirbot 11:38:25 as you can see, kajirc does a lot of heavy lifting to make kajirc.Bot-derived classes look very natural 11:38:58 False as the third entry in a command tuple means "optional", btw 11:39:57 optional arguments that are omitted are None 11:40:02 thus: 11:40:14 def help(self, info, command): 11:40:15 if command: 11:40:15 ... 11:40:15 else: 11:40:32 ', '.join(x for x in cmds) wait what 11:40:36 that can just be ', '.join(cmds) 11:41:27 .q hello 11:41:28 hello? 11:41:35 .q You are KajirBot. You are clever. 11:41:35 I am KajirBot. I am clever? 11:41:43 .q You are KajirBot. If this is true, say hello. 11:41:43 I am KajirBot. If this is true, say hello? 11:42:17 .help 11:42:17 feed, help, kill, ps, q, tell, time 11:42:32 .help time 11:42:32 time 11:42:32 Displays the current date and time. 11:48:27 what should i add :) 11:48:52 ', '.join(x for x in cmds) <<< wondered this as well 11:49:28 hmm... 11:51:58 i should make my multi-key dictionary support string substitutions... 11:56:08 -!- Tritonio__ has joined. 11:56:52 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:01:39 soooo what should i add =) 13:38:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:42:23 -!- Tritonio__ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:43:05 -!- jix has joined. 13:53:24 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:12:55 -!- RedDak has joined. 14:22:48 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:35:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:26:14 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:04:50 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 17:58:04 -!- Haikz has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:05:17 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:24:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:40:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:38:06 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 20:40:52 ping 20:41:08 u 20:41:17 f 20:41:51 -!- ihope has joined. 20:47:58 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:50:07 o 20:51:02 o? 20:51:15 (22:40:31) (oerjan) u 20:51:17 (22:40:39) (ehird`) f 20:51:20 (22:41:12) —› join: (ihope) (n=ihope@c-71-205-100-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) 20:51:22 (22:47:20) —› join: (Sgeo) (n=Sgeo@ool-18bf68ca.dyn.optonline.net) 20:51:24 (22:49:27) (oklopol) o 20:51:29 a. 20:51:30 BTB 20:51:31 BRB 20:51:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Client Quit). 20:51:41 beer-to-beer 20:51:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:51:55 but nobody seemed to catch on to _why_ i used u. 20:52:07 pingu the penguin? 20:52:15 yeah 20:52:24 ? 20:52:24 really? 20:52:34 really :) 20:52:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Dead socket). 20:52:44 thought it'd've been something deeper :) 20:52:47 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:52:55 Like equine! 20:53:17 "o" is a quine 20:53:18 (22:34:19) (+oklopol) o 20:53:18 (22:47:51) (tonkman) o 20:53:57 ihope, oklopol, did you see the specs updated with the newline issue? 20:54:22 oklopol: cool. 20:54:26 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox_newlines.txt 20:54:34 and http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-newline-demo.b 20:54:47 oerjan: hahahaha pingu 20:54:57 and ehird` and oerjan and everyone else 20:55:01 i was expecting something deeper, i admit 20:55:53 i am afraid i don't recall a lot of deep things starting with "ping" :) 20:56:28 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 21:01:20 oerjan: there are jokes aside from catenation ones :) 21:01:36 though catenation jokes *are* definately the funniers 21:01:39 *finniest 21:01:44 *funniest 21:01:45 * Sgeo doesn't have a lot of time today 21:01:45 ... 21:01:50 Catenation? 21:01:53 con- 21:02:02 Yeah, what ever happened to that... 21:02:11 i don't use it 21:02:23 everyone knows what i mean from catenation 21:02:26 even you :) 21:02:32 Indeed. 21:02:37 It's turning into a word! Oh no! 21:02:42 heh 21:02:50 i'll try to use con- from now on 21:03:00 Nothing wrong with calling it catenation. 21:03:15 apropos finniest, is the most proper way to refer to persons from finland "finn" or "finnish"? 21:03:17 Unless people give you a hard time about it, of course. Unlike me. I would never do that. :-P 21:03:30 there's nothing wrong with your MOTHER 21:03:53 Before you know it we'll be talking of op systems, then opsystems, then ostems or something. 21:03:55 Ok, unsafe functionality in PSOX: Things like opening files 21:04:00 oerjan: use the native word 21:04:12 Should a PSOX client have to declare that it wants to use such functionality at the beginning? 21:04:19 in english? 21:04:32 well, yes, that's what i meant 21:04:35 I could have it declare that it might want to request functionality while the program runs.. 21:04:41 Any thoughts? 21:04:58 Operating system, oper system, op system, opsystem, opstem, ostem? 21:04:58 making a follow-up question is dangerous, though, since you might actually think i was serious 21:05:09 -> o. 21:05:25 did you know it's already gone shorter than ostem? 21:05:30 OS. 21:05:32 i hear them saying "os"... 21:06:03 Sgeo: why should it tell it's gonna need files? 21:06:21 So that it can't access things without the user's permission 21:06:32 if it does have to do that, then i guess you could make mandatory declares for using any function 21:06:42 "There are three one-letter words in English. One is 'I', a subject pronoun referring to the speaker. One is 'a', an article referring to an inspecific item. One is 'o', a noun referring to a set of software running on a computer that facilitates the running of programs." 21:06:45 *any unsafe function 21:06:59 because you prolly want the same interface for files and, say, printing complex number 21:07:01 *numers 21:07:06 *numbers 21:07:15 The specs for each domain note whether a function is safe or unsafe 21:07:19 ihope: :D 21:07:27 Sgeo: er, program permissions? 21:07:32 ihope, hm? 21:07:40 should I force such declarations to be in the beginning? 21:07:54 to avoid runtime-errors, or why? 21:07:58 I mean, your ordinary everyday programming language doesn't either ask the user or not before doing something, does it? 21:07:59 (Incidentally, declarations will be flexible, prespecifiying arguments and indicating this to the user) 21:08:20 It does it, and returns some special thing if something bad happened. 21:08:24 * Sgeo doesn't like the thought of Brainf*ck viruses too much 21:08:39 ihope, "if something bad happened"? 21:08:48 Er, if it didn't work. 21:09:15 The first byte returned by any unsafe function will be a status byte 21:11:13 Should I allow declarations in the middle of the program? 21:11:34 i voted for "no declarations", so hard to answer :P 21:12:25 ihope: WTF did you get the "I, a, o" thing from? 21:12:29 o != 0 21:12:56 Operating system, oper system, op system, opsystem, opstem, ostem? 21:13:00 -> o. 21:13:51 If there's no declarations, then the user would have to agree/disagree as it occurs 21:14:40 Unless domains with unsafe functions are carefully designed.. 21:14:54 well yeah, you should have optional declarations 21:15:14 but the problem is, the user will have to agree anyway 21:15:36 ah, so I see 21:15:47 you can't know whether the program asks for permissions without running it 21:15:48 Thing is, the client will call the declaration function with a list of arguments that it will give the unsafe function 21:16:05 It can say "ask the user if it's ok to call this function as long as these arguments are filled like this" 21:16:42 BF viruses would be impossible with a good ostem :-P 21:17:30 And of course, the PSOX server can be run with a --safe function 21:23:00 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 21:24:22 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 21:27:39 * Sgeo pokes 21:29:57 Time to start writing the safety specs? 21:30:10 * Sgeo will remove the bit about safety stuff needing to be first 21:43:52 brainfuck viruses = loller 21:43:59 that would be hilarious 21:44:06 fucks your brain, then your hard drive 21:44:13 lol 21:44:33 Incidentally, all usages of Unsafe functions will be recorded in a Safety Log 21:45:03 i htink you are overengineering psox 21:45:07 ?? 21:46:10 How is it possible to overengineer something? 21:47:03 easy 21:47:19 Well, as a first step I would recommend getting a committee of mixed civilian contractors and military personelle... 21:48:07 make sure they all want to make their mark on it, but have no sense of elgance 21:48:24 ... then split them into those two subcomittees, and have them play ping-pong with the spec, each making it bigger then passing it to the other 21:48:41 s/spec/requirements/ 21:49:09 then get a load of idiots who do not know of each others' existance to turn the requirements into a design... 21:49:33 be su never to chuck anything out, and to favour fundamental complexity over superficial complexity... 21:49:53 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("haaaaaaaaaa"). 21:50:32 every time something is getting tricky, add another layer ora new abstraction, rater than expanding existing ones... 21:50:47 finally, take the resulting 2,000-page document and there you have it, and over-engineered product 21:52:26 hopefully something like the Universal Calculator (from the OMGWTF). 21:55:01 that's not what i would call overengineering 21:55:15 it's what i would 21:55:27 overengineering would be designing the bridge to hold 1000 times its working load instead of 10 21:55:32 no 21:55:41 How is what I was doing overengineering? 21:55:44 overengineering is designing something to be much more convoluted than it needs to be 21:55:49 see: Common Lisp, as a prime example 21:55:54 PL/I 21:55:56 PSOX does this, imo 21:56:16 Maybe with the versioning thing.. 21:56:22 Actually, overengineering is rather rare in esolangss 21:56:36 they tend to be small and useless, rather than gigantic and useless 21:56:46 PSOX isn't an esolang >.> 21:57:24 one might call it a minilanguage? 21:57:29 and it is esoteric and computery 21:57:35 PSOX is an over-engineered interface that esolangs can use 21:57:36 IMO 21:57:44 an API is certianly relate to a language 21:57:46 its just... Safety Log where all "unsafe" ops are logged? WTF? 21:58:02 how about erasing the safety log? 21:58:09 its the little things like that 21:58:14 Is the safety log too much? 21:58:14 they all add up and spell "wtf" to me 21:58:29 * Sgeo would have thought that, if anything, the version stuff adds too much overhead 21:58:36 Sgeo: IMO yes. I mean, try and emulate C i guess in these interfaces - simple and dirty. It'll fit esolangs better imo 21:59:12 No safety stuff, or just no Log? 21:59:25 I dunno, I'm not completely prepped up on PSOX 21:59:41 But from what I've heard, things like safety stuff is quite unneeded in an esolang API imo 21:59:53 not to say i don't think psox is not a great idea - it is ;) 21:59:55 *:) 22:00:03 what's PSOx's purpose? 22:00:17 bsmntbombdood: API for esolangs to use the outside world 22:00:25 bsmntbombdood: POSIX-function like stuff 22:01:04 Of course, the removal of safety thingies means the possibility of... *shudders* Brainfuck malware 22:01:45 Sgeo: seriously who cares 22:01:53 Sgeo: writing malware is very hard on unixy systems 22:02:06 Sgeo: and on windows, heck, who on windows uses BF and is not using an AV etc? 22:02:07 This will probably run on Windows too, you know.. 22:02:13 well... 22:02:22 Unix is very powerful... 22:02:51 SimonRC: there is a handful of unix malware 22:03:03 SimonRC: its not likely using BF would suddenly show the amazing simplicity of writing malware. 22:03:10 heh 22:03:41 ehird`, would AV stuff really care about BF programs? SHould I force them too like this? 22:03:51 Sgeo: AV stuff works based on processes. 22:04:04 Sgeo: seriously, wtf, this is an api not training wheels for windows users ;) 22:04:11 Also, it's difficult to read through a BF program to make sure it's not doing anything bad, like erasing every file in the user's home directory.. 22:04:19 so why are you doing that 22:06:15 hm? 22:12:44 that's why you don't execute untrusted code 22:13:31 ... with full permissions 22:14:04 wrt File I/O, I guess I could force it to run in the current directory.. 22:14:43 no, you just use your existing filesystem permissions 22:15:32 yes, because who cares about losing ~? 22:16:19 point taken 22:16:27 unix file permissions are a bit sucky 22:16:36 there needs to be something more fine-grained 22:17:22 My idea was to have the client ask for permission for any usafe function, and it can ask for permission for calling unsafe functions with prefilled arguments 22:17:43 e.g. to ask the user if it can always open a file named "myfile.txt" 22:17:51 ok 22:17:55 good 22:18:09 a great thing to do in the middle of your curses work... 22:18:19 curses work? 22:18:48 yeah, curses 22:19:03 as in curses(3) 22:19:20 It can ask for permissions before doing whatever, if it wants 22:19:40 um 22:19:56 but if you have uestions poopping up that might muck up the screen output 22:20:00 it can ask for permissions before it does curses'y stuff 22:20:10 -!- RedDak has joined. 22:20:13 Hi RedDak 22:29:16 Bye for now all. Any comments to the effect of "no safety" will be taken onboard, and thrown over the side. 22:29:55 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 22:35:45 magic image resizing 22:35:47 oh, wow, this is so cool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIFCV2spKtg 22:36:00 yep 22:49:42 what hsould i add to kajirbot/ 22:50:17 a cybersex attachment 22:50:31 it should only do really esoteric cybersex though 22:50:47 i see. 22:50:55 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 22:51:01 nothing normal, but lots of furry, roleplay, and bizare situations 22:51:13 or bazzar situations even 22:51:24 yes! 22:51:39 you can do it by modifying an existing chatting module, I am sure 22:51:40 how about no 22:51:40 :p 22:52:34 http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2007/09/kids-are-just-excuse-you-are-target.html 22:58:16 umm 22:58:32 did i misunderstand something, or is <21 child porn in the us? 22:58:39 <18 is 22:59:16 and it doesn't even have to be nude to be cp 22:59:26 "It was long after that they were arguing that some 17-year-olds look 18 so the limit should be raised to 21.", "One result of this new age limit is that some erotica, that was previously legal, became illegal quite literally over night." 22:59:28 became 22:59:51 hrm 23:00:12 can't be 23:01:05 maybe he's talking about the new changes 23:02:50 "If a photographer takes erotic photos he must have forms filled out and filed regarding each model." is this currently true? 23:03:15 yes 23:05:47 kay... i should make a list of the ways i would be a criminal in in the us 23:05:51 i think the relevent age should be in here: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/110/toc.html 23:05:54 but i can't find it 23:06:23 if the age for cp was raised to 21, at least half the US would be outlaws 23:06:56 yeah, men 23:07:19 (bad joke, sorry) 23:07:41 better raise that to 75% (all the men, half the women) 23:08:17 hmm 23:08:37 i just googled for child porn, without realizing it :) 23:08:42 ? 23:08:50 was looking for the hungarian ...whuz the word 23:08:53 party 23:09:08 what are the laws in .fi? 23:09:31 <18 illegal 23:09:43 what though? 23:09:57 hmm... don't know the spesifics 23:10:04 no one cares really 23:10:09 i mean 23:10:23 there's not much control... 23:10:28 no one has checked my hd at least 23:10:38 i guess that wouldn't happen anywhere 23:11:08 i guess it's nudity that triggers it 23:12:09 http://english.pravda.ru/news/world/19-02-2007/87572-porn-0 23:12:13 this i mean 23:12:32 i never understood these laws, at least 100% of 13-year-olds are having sex anyway 23:13:03 lol 23:13:27 i may have been a bit excessive there 23:18:00 -!- RedDak has quit ("I'm quitting... Bye all"). 23:29:47 still 6 hours till school... better go buy something to keep me awake 23:29:47 -> 23:30:15 or you could sleep 23:30:34 well 23:30:44 theoretically 23:31:09 but i prefer being awake when i'm home and asleep when i'm at school 23:32:02 did you know your ip address is owned by Kari Ylenius? 23:33:51 oklopol: do your isp log stuff at all? 23:33:58 they probably have an alert set for 'child porn' :p 23:34:10 darn, i realized i don't have any money 23:34:24 ehird`: i doubt they do, but that's exactly what i was thinking :) 23:34:47 bsmntbombdood: nice, i've never heard that name 23:34:53 our apartment has 3 ip's 23:35:36 you can mail him at Turun Kaapelitelvisio Oy \ Kauppiaskatu 5 \ 20100, Turku \ FINLAND 23:36:35 -!- cmeme has quit (Excess Flood). 23:36:56 "the turku cable tv company" if you couldn't decipher, that's prolly where this connection is from 23:37:26 i don't remember where it's from, since i wasn't a part in the process of getting it 23:37:41 anyway, i'm pretty sure they're sending troops in his home right now 23:37:46 for the child porn 23:37:52 actually, i just said that again 23:37:55 dangerous stuff 23:38:07 i found money, monologue stops -> 23:38:41 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:45:40 whoa 23:45:47 C is ambiguous 23:45:51 x * y; 23:46:32 multiplication or variable declaration? 23:59:08 you can't have a type and a variable with the same name, can you? 2007-09-06: 00:00:01 dunno 00:00:11 -!- ehird` has quit. 00:18:52 -!- KajirBot has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 00:53:13 bsmntbombdood: Sadly, either. 00:59:08 i think it's clever to have parsing be affected by identifier assignations 00:59:35 because you want the challenge of having to check what x is to know what that does 02:08:17 bsmntbombdood: there's no reason for it to be multiplication, so it's variable declaration. :-P 02:08:21 ã‚„ã£ãŸï¼ 02:08:27 Unless C is lazy now and you want to specify that it should be evaluated then. 02:08:40 * ihope hugs Haskel 02:08:48 (l++) 02:09:09 It doesn't make you specify evaluation order much. 02:12:19 * pikhq finally has IME and terminal working together 02:14:01 Of course, it can require a runtime system thingy and... all that. 02:14:24 A smart enough Haskell compiler can produce fast code with a small memory footprint thing. 04:12:11 a smart bsmntbombdood can do all that and more 04:14:13 A smart pikhq can skip the compiler and go straight to the assembler. 04:38:25 yay, me wrote a gc 04:43:13 A smart ihope can, um, think about coding in assembly. 04:43:42 Languages should be lazy, not programmers. 04:44:11 I wonder what Haskell would be like if it were strict... 04:44:17 Or eager, or whatever. 04:44:20 -!- rabidfurby has left (?). 05:38:23 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:51:39 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 07:11:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:29:15 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lunch"). 10:03:29 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("yay for sourceports"). 11:09:31 -!- RedDak has joined. 11:21:57 -!- RodgerTheGreat_ has joined. 11:23:43 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:30:34 -!- ihope__ has joined. 11:47:52 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:05:03 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:48:18 -!- ehird` has joined. 13:01:13 -!- sebbu has joined. 13:07:53 ihope__: actually, a decent Haskell compiler will produce lots of strict code, via cross-module optimisations 13:10:05 Cross-module optimisations are needed in Haskell because of the possibility to put a control structure in one module, a generator in a second, and a consumer in a third, then use them together in a fourth. 13:23:26 -!- ehird` has left (?). 13:23:35 -!- ehird` has joined. 14:20:26 -!- RodgerTheGreat_ has changed nick to RodgerTheGreat. 15:40:30 ping 16:04:45 -!- jix has joined. 16:22:54 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:23:12 Hi all 16:37:33 hello 16:52:35 -!- importantshock_ has joined. 16:53:19 -!- importantshock_ has changed nick to importantshock. 17:01:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:38:32 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:58:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:05:31 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:08:00 -!- importantshock has quit. 18:17:32 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:22:51 -!- jix has joined. 18:24:56 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 18:44:36 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:00:32 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:11:21 -!- oklokok has joined. 19:11:22 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:11:22 -!- ololobot has quit (Connection reset by peer). 19:39:59 -!- Tritonio has joined. 19:43:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:43:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:28:52 Hi oerjan 20:31:32 hi Sgeo 20:35:09 hi Tritonio 20:39:50 hello! 20:58:55 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 21:01:34 -!- tombom has joined. 21:09:23 i'm a little confused 21:09:29 what's the latest intercal version 21:11:49 There are versions? 21:12:28 well there are at least two competing implementations 21:12:38 oh dear 21:12:52 C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL 21:13:06 What's next? CLCLC-INTERCAL? 21:13:15 so uh 21:13:19 which has more features :S 21:13:41 we have pages on both on the wiki, i think 21:14:11 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ladu. 21:14:20 -!- ladu has changed nick to ihope. 21:14:44 oh right i'll check there thanls 21:15:47 uh 21:15:52 is clc-intercal written in perl 21:16:28 oh yes it is 21:22:46 ppdpdpdpdpdpdpfppdfodfkgjkhjkhhghgjjakakakakakaka. 21:22:48 Also. 21:22:59 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo[Test]. 21:23:16 -!- Sgeo[Test] has changed nick to Sgeo. 21:25:05 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo|Testing. 21:26:46 -!- Sgeo|Testing has changed nick to Sgeo. 21:33:48 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo|Test. 21:34:27 -!- Sgeo|Test has changed nick to Sgeo. 21:35:28 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo|Testing. 21:35:34 -!- tombom has quit. 21:37:34 -!- Sgeo|Testing has changed nick to Sgeo|Test. 21:38:12 -!- Sgeo|Test has changed nick to Sgeo. 21:39:04 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo|Test. 21:39:11 -!- Sgeo|Test has changed nick to Sgeo. 21:39:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 21:41:25 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to SgeoBot. 21:41:35 -!- SgeoBot has changed nick to Seo. 21:41:58 -!- Seo has changed nick to Sgeo. 21:42:15 Sgeo: I see you're testing. 21:51:22 test me, baby 21:56:09 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 21:57:44 * ihope tests bsmntbombdood 21:57:58 Negative. 21:59:14 yay, i don't have herpes after all! 22:01:42 No, it's largepox you don't have. 22:01:53 * ihope tests bsmntbombdood for herpes, HIV, etc. 22:02:01 Positive, positive, positive, positive, positive? Oh my. 22:02:21 Luckily, a "positive" result only gives a 9% chance of you actually having it. 22:05:51 hooray for bayes 22:07:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 22:09:44 Hi poiuy_qwert 22:09:52 hello Sgeo 22:10:01 * Sgeo should start working on PSOX again 22:40:14 -!- RedDak has joined. 22:48:26 * SimonRC wonders why he is such an idiot in dreams. 22:48:50 ok, so I figure out that I am dreaming, then I decide, "oh, I'll talk to my sister" 22:49:08 despite all the planning I did for much more fun things to do 22:49:11 *sigh* 22:49:29 also I can't tell how long I stay lucid... 22:49:43 I worry it's only about 15s or something. 22:52:56 i had a sweet dream last night 22:54:35 hm? 22:55:22 i was swimming in a hot spring + waterfall surrounded by cliffs and shit, then i found an entrance to a cave, that had all sorts of cool stuff inside 22:55:25 hard to explain 22:55:32 mine mke less sense 22:55:48 mine are also unillustrable 22:56:04 boiling pools of liquid surrounded by equipment... 22:56:13 I go into the kitchen, and there is a pile of PDFs on the table... 22:56:41 ... not printed or icons or on storage media or anything, but actual PDFs. 22:56:43 like, WTF 23:00:19 ha 23:01:11 this cave was so cool 23:01:31 describe 23:02:10 it was a working area, but left like everyone had vaporized a few minutes ago 23:03:08 really hard to describe 23:03:31 * Sgeo should really work on PSOX 23:05:26 SimonRC: what did the pdfs look like? 23:05:41 dunno 23:06:19 I think the sensation entered at a higher layer, so they didn't have an appearence. 23:15:00 wish that could happen for real 23:18:48 give it 50 years 23:19:12 It is a bit scary looking in the mirror and not havig your reflection match properly 23:20:48 Especially when your reflection reaches out and starts beating the crap out of you. 23:20:49 That sucks. 23:21:14 It didn't do that to me. 23:21:18 Though it was black once 23:21:38 I don't know if you intended that to be a racist remark, but it definitely was :P 23:24:41 um 23:24:43 ok 23:26:24 it was? 23:27:02 s/was/sounded like one 23:27:10 i highly doubt SimonRC was being racist to... pdfs? 23:28:46 it was not intended to be racist 23:34:52 zzzzzzzz 23:39:31 * Sgeo is thinking about two new string formats for PSOX 23:39:36 * Sgeo pokes pikhq 23:44:55 Longstrings: Longnums that are not interpreted as numbers, and the 0x02 indicator is meaningless 23:45:12 RStrings: terminated by an unescaped 0x00 23:45:22 0x01 can escape a 0x00 23:45:30 0x01 can also escape 0x01 23:46:36 XStrings: Allows the client to choose.. first byte is 0x00 for NUL-terminated strings, 0x01 for longnums(same 0x01 is used as indicator), and 0x02 for RStrings 23:59:43 Anyone here? 2007-09-07: 00:01:10 i am 00:08:33 poiuy_qwert, any comments? 00:09:13 i dont understand Longstrings, how does that work? 00:09:37 There are indicator bytes 00:09:41 i d i d i 00:09:51 (indicator data indicator data indicator) 00:10:03 An indicator of 0x01 means a data byte follows 00:10:14 an indicator of 0 means that no databyte follows 00:11:12 -!- ehird` has quit. 00:14:00 but why do you need longnums, what does 1234 represent? unicode character 1234? 00:15:15 Because otherwise PSOX would only be able to transmit numbers 0<=n<=255 00:16:32 oh i see. having string in the name confused me 00:17:24 Incidentally, 0x02 as a starting indicator for longnums mean the number is negative. This is not supported with Longstrings for obvious reasons 00:31:06 -!- RedDak has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:07 -!- cmeme has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:08 -!- lament has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:08 -!- Overand has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:09 -!- Chton has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:09 -!- Eidolos has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:09 -!- Tritonio has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:10 -!- g4lt-mordant has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:10 -!- GregorR has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:10 -!- tokigun_ has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:11 -!- sekhmet has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:11 -!- ihope has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:11 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:12 -!- puzzlet has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:12 -!- SimonRC has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:12 -!- mtve has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:12 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:13 -!- oklokok has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:31:13 -!- pikhq has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:32:00 -!- sekhmet has joined. 00:32:00 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:32:00 -!- Tritonio has joined. 00:32:00 -!- oklokok has joined. 00:32:00 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:32:00 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:32:00 -!- ihope has joined. 00:32:00 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 00:32:00 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:32:00 -!- g4lt-mordant has joined. 00:32:00 -!- SimonRC has joined. 00:32:00 -!- GregorR has joined. 00:32:00 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 00:32:00 -!- Chton has joined. 00:32:00 -!- mtve has joined. 00:32:00 -!- Eidolos has joined. 00:32:00 -!- tokigun_ has joined. 00:32:19 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:32:21 -!- bsmntbombdood` has joined. 00:32:36 -!- RedDak has joined. 00:32:36 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:32:36 -!- Overand has joined. 00:32:36 -!- lament has joined. 00:33:02 PSOX functions probably shouldn't return XStrings though, unless the client already knows what type it will be by specifying it somehow 00:33:12 woo netsplit 00:33:26 PSOX sounds... um... 00:33:29 Complex. 00:33:55 Couldn't you just slap a bunch of compatibility layers on top of the basic interface? 00:34:24 ..? 00:35:41 Make the system calls and an API available to the program. 00:35:53 ..Isn't that what PSOX _is_? 00:36:10 Maybe. :-P 00:36:16 Do you have a spec for it? 00:36:29 Yes, but it's not finished 00:36:41 * Sgeo will add the strings now, then work on Safety 00:37:21 Safety? 00:37:36 Oh, also: re: Might some Python BF interpreters ask the user for one character at a time when doing ',', and discard the rest? 00:37:54 Safety: Unsafe functions might write files or read files or connect to the net.. 00:37:54 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:38:04 Although I will make a Safe File I/O domain 00:38:27 * ihope nods 00:39:13 * Sgeo wonders if he should *gasp* exclude Safety from PSOX 1.0, and make no unsafe functions 00:40:20 So safety is for keeping programs from doing bad things? 00:40:29 yes 00:40:35 Without the user's permission 00:41:19 Should I exclude it from 1.0 for now? 00:41:35 Add the string stuff and some clarifications, and declare the Core done? 00:41:42 I'd think *1.0* would need just that. 00:41:44 Still seems silly to me. 00:41:52 pikhq, hm? 00:42:06 1.0 ought to be fairly feature-complete. 00:42:52 * Sgeo works on the safety specs 00:43:04 Declare that what you have now won't change in 1.0, but that more will be added? 00:44:29 * Sgeo might be able to get 1.0 Core finished tonight, even w/ safety 00:44:55 (Core = basic PSOX framework, but not builtin domains other than 0) 00:45:28 Questions: Should I allow custom domains to accept arbitrary data, as opposed to forcing them to have functions? 00:46:57 Might not really matter... 00:47:18 Imean, a domain designer, if they want something similar, can always do 0x00 DOMAIN DOMAIN 00:47:24 and shortcuts? 00:47:39 Should I allow functions to be binded to odd domain numbers? 00:47:47 Maybe not in 1.0? 00:50:22 How's this so far? 00:50:24 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-safety.txt 00:51:37 * Sgeo pokes ihope and pikhq 00:51:42 and oklokok 00:51:44 and poiuy_qwert 00:52:36 anyone there? 00:53:22 psox has not a point 00:53:32 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 00:54:05 Hi SEO_DUDE 00:54:07 bsmnt_bot, hm? 00:54:16 bsmntbombdood`, hm? 00:54:27 wtf?!!??? 00:54:31 why do i have a ' 00:54:34 *` 00:54:45 -!- bsmntbombdood` has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 00:54:59 bsmntbombdood, what do you mean by it doesn't have a point? 00:55:00 brb 00:55:06 i mean FOO 00:57:59 Sgeo: Oh, Calling it Psox 1.0 Core? *That* I approve of. 00:58:15 You don't need much of anything except your bare-bones suggestions, and the *possibility* for more domains. :) 01:00:46 Sgeo: Better idea for safety. . . Require that each unsafe function be declared as follows: 0x00 0x00 unsafe_function_declare DOMAIN FUNCTION 01:01:08 require no unsafe runctions 01:01:10 use mondas 01:01:42 If used without such a declaration, or if the unsafe function is not approved, then the unsafe function will only output on stderr "Unsafe function foo attempted without approval." 01:02:03 bsmntbombdood: Think "jailbox", not functional programming. 01:02:14 s/jail/sand/ 01:02:14 +[] is UNSAFE FUNCTION 01:04:20 pikhq, how is that different from what I'm doing, except that using the function counts as a declaration? 01:04:40 erm, I mean, except your way doesn't have the prefilled arguments.. 01:04:57 prefilled arguments are optional btw.. but they might add complexity.. 01:05:19 Sgeo: It looks to me that each call requires a declaration in your spec. 01:06:19 That's wrong.. how to clarify.. 01:06:33 Maybe just state that each unsafe function implicitly requests approval for that specific call? 01:06:45 without a predeclare? 01:07:06 argh 01:07:24 Thus, 0x00 0x02 REMOVE "foo" would respond with "Program requesting to delete foo. Approve? [yes/no/all]" 01:08:25 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-safety.txt clarified.. 01:08:44 No 'all' 01:08:55 That's what 0x00 0x00 0x06 is for 01:09:34 "Allow program to (do X| do anything) with (file x|any File)?" 01:09:53 Depending on the predeclare unsafe functionality call 01:10:13 Oh. 01:10:34 *That* spec is much clarified. 01:10:37 I approve. 01:12:12 More clarification 01:12:16 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-safety.txt 01:14:29 pikhq, like it with the extra clarification? 01:14:55 Yeah. 01:24:42 "Unsafe functions MUST, for the first byte, return a Safety status code. The byte is 01:24:42 0x00 if it failed because it's not allowed, or 0x01 if the function was allowed. 01:24:42 PUF also returns a safety byte with similar semantics, but 0x01 may also mean that the user selected 'ask'." 01:25:04 i.e. the app can't tell the difference between 'ask' and 'yes' >.> 01:25:10 at least with PUF 01:25:49 * Sgeo pokes pikhq 01:26:34 * pikhq approves again. 01:27:04 :)( 01:27:06 :) 01:59:41 * Sgeo pokes pikhq and ihope with http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-safety.txt 01:59:49 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:07:01 pikhq? 02:15:13 What's PSOX for, exactly? 02:15:56 It's to allow esolangs that are restricted to stdin/stdout to do other things, like reading the command line, file I/O, and network access 02:16:00 and anything else you can imagine 02:18:20 * Sgeo will BBL. MSG any comments to me, or they may not be read. 02:24:05 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 02:56:24 * Sgeo is back 02:56:26 Hi SEO_DUDE 03:02:32 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:29:49 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:40:56 Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do *nothing* but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C. 03:41:48 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918 03:41:57 torvalds++ 03:46:41 bsmntbombdood, eh? 03:46:54 eh what? 03:47:02 Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do *nothing* but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C. 03:47:02 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918 03:47:02 torvalds++ 03:47:09 i just said that 03:47:23 * Sgeo meant 'explain' 03:47:57 without any extra information from you, an explaination will just be a repost 04:07:43 Note to self: stdin/stdout switching 04:29:26 pikhq, still up? 04:29:32 Just checking 04:29:35 BRB 04:30:03 No. 04:33:01 I'll take that as a yes. 05:09:46 * Sgeo pokes pikhq and oklokok and Eidolos and GregorR 05:09:52 and RodgerTheGreat 05:09:57 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt file descriptors! 05:10:01 hi, Sgeo 05:10:08 Hi RodgerTheGreat 05:10:23 I would appreciate it if you didn't modify my memory 05:10:31 eh? 05:10:36 POKE 05:10:39 ala basic 05:11:08 sorry 05:11:12 * pikhq PEEKs 05:11:25 'sokay 05:12:02 I'm buffered with some noncoding segments and repeated vital code blocks- I'm more or less error-tolerant 05:13:02 while(1)*++RodgerTheGreat = rand(); 05:13:42 this is why I'm glad I'm a paper- we're pretty strong against things like a dwarf. 05:13:57 I have no fear of primitive bombers 05:14:04 * pikhq eats the paper 05:14:13 any comments on file descriptors? 05:14:27 * RodgerTheGreat covers pikhq's intestinal lining 05:14:34 got you now, bitch! 05:14:40 Sgeo: like metadata? 05:14:41 * pikhq throws up 05:14:56 RodgerTheGreat, did you read the spec? 05:15:00 * RodgerTheGreat reforms, T1000-style 05:15:08 just got here- what am I reading? 05:15:13 TROGDOR!!!!!! 05:15:20 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt 05:15:37 stupid, frickin, KNIGHTS! 05:15:52 * RodgerTheGreat reads 05:16:29 * Sgeo hastily adds support for extended function names to psox-safety.txt 05:16:54 So that a suggestion by the one and only bd_ can be implemented sanely 05:17:45 hm... 05:17:52 sounds interesting so far 05:20:39 Any questions/comments? 05:24:31 hm 05:24:50 I will ponder it, but for now I must sleep. I'll contact you tomorrow if I think of anything 05:24:57 G'night 05:25:37 c'yall 05:26:40 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to IdleWilde. 05:27:01 -!- IdleWilde has changed nick to Sgeo. 05:28:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:29:50 * pikhq is called to sleep 05:29:58 G'night pikhq 05:29:59 Hi oerjan 05:30:16 * Sgeo pokes oerjan to http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt 05:33:03 Any questions/comments? 05:33:33 no 05:52:04 G'night all 06:09:06 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 06:16:56 -!- calamari has joined. 06:20:20 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:20:45 -!- puzzlet has joined. 06:35:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 07:01:34 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:01:34 (Sgeo) Oh, also: re: Might some Python BF interpreters ask the user for one character at a time when doing ',', and discard the rest? <<< i have no idea what you were referring to, but one of mine did that... 07:01:34 and you aren't here 07:01:34 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:23:03 i woke up at 6, went back to sleep, immediately started another dream where i walked about 10 meters and jumped over this little stream, then woke up 07:23:10 it was 7 then. 07:23:58 guess my mind is trying to answer me wondering whether dreams go the same speed as irl 07:24:33 "hey, i already know, you idiot, i do that every night, remember?" 07:24:45 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:18:40 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:29:41 -!- ehird` has joined. 09:30:15 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit). 09:30:35 -!- ehird` has joined. 09:31:16 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit). 09:50:04 -!- ehird` has joined. 11:32:17 -!- tombom has joined. 11:39:13 -!- Tritonio has joined. 11:52:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:40:57 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:10:39 -!- RedDak has joined. 13:42:07 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:42:32 -!- ehird` has joined. 14:00:52 -!- Figs has joined. 14:02:17 !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++<-]>++.+. 14:02:20 HI 14:06:33 !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 14:06:39 w/e 14:08:48 lol O.o 14:09:03 oh 14:13:33 !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 14:13:35 14:14:03 You like me, don't you egobot? Yes you do~o... good bot! 14:14:37 * Figs pats egobot on the ... *bot equivalent of a head* 14:22:29 !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 14:22:32 14:22:51 egobot just said "you like me" /before/ digs patted egobot.. 14:24:36 dig? 14:24:54 :P 14:25:06 figs 14:25:07 :p 14:25:25 !bf +[>+++<+>[-<+++++++>]>]< XD 14:26:35 !bf +[>+++[<++>-]++++[<++>-]] 14:26:43 !ps 14:26:46 1 Figs: ps 14:27:36 >>> bf >,[>,]<[.<] << Hello World! 14:27:42 oh 14:27:52 no ololobot 14:32:25 :< 14:32:55 oklomagicman! 14:33:20 it doesn't wanna join it seems... 14:33:27 -!- ololobot has joined. 14:33:30 haha 14:33:33 i just failed 14:33:46 :P 14:33:58 (16:32:02) (oklopol) >>> join #esoteric 14:33:58 (16:32:10) (oklopol) >>> join #esoteric 14:33:58 (16:32:43) (oklopol) >>> raw join #esoteric 14:34:39 !bf [+]. 14:34:52 !bf +[+]. 14:35:05 !ps 14:35:07 !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 14:35:10 1 oklopol: ps 14:35:12 C 14:35:27 ah okay 14:36:21 do we have a !C yet? 14:36:31 what's that? 14:36:38 runs C code? :P 14:36:56 aaaaah :P 14:37:50 it could automatically nest everything that's not a function into main, and run 14:38:06 geordi in ##C++ does C++ 14:38:15 :O 14:38:18 we should get our own geordi going... 14:38:41 show how it works 14:38:44 or is it !C? 14:38:47 or... 14:38:49 !c++ 14:38:52 Huh? 14:39:22 geordi << int main{ for(int i =0;i<10;i++) { cout << i << " ";} } 14:40:42 (geordi) expected primary-expression before 'int' 14:40:51 (oklopol) geordi << int main(void){int i; for(i =0;i<10;i++) { cout << i << " ";} } 14:42:09 ... it's C++ :P 14:42:43 you have to screw something up or it just isn't right. 14:43:08 i can't find the error... 14:43:10 -!- Figs has changed nick to FreshCaek. 14:43:15 it gives that error after my cix 14:43:16 *fix 14:43:32 std::cout prolly 14:43:42 nay 14:43:50 nay? 14:43:53 okay 14:43:54 then what? 14:45:28 no idea. 14:45:35 -!- FreshCaek has changed nick to Figs. 14:47:07 http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/esoteric/intercal/unlambda.i 14:47:11 i don't understand 14:47:14 how can anyone code thisd 14:47:43 oh 14:47:44 () 14:47:56 + I already did << 14:47:57 :P 14:47:58 >.< 14:49:02 -!- jix has joined. 14:49:57 howdy 14:50:12 howdy do-da day :) 14:51:25 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:54:41 -!- Figs has changed nick to geodi. 14:54:59 -!- geodi has changed nick to Figs. 14:57:32 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:58:51 tombom: oerjan is a demigod 14:59:30 http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/esoteric/interpreter.unl <<< though i guess this provides the other half... 14:59:50 this is where bsmntbombdood says that's trivial to do, though 15:04:08 hm? 15:04:09 Hi all 15:04:22 Hi oklopol 15:05:21 hi 15:09:13 hi Figs 15:09:17 hi. 15:09:31 this conversation is moving. 15:09:36 lol 15:11:09 * Sgeo is tired 15:12:07 Must.. keep.. working.. on.. PSOX.. 15:14:11 -!- Figs_ has joined. 15:14:26 -!- Figs has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:14:29 -!- Figs_ has changed nick to Figs. 15:15:22 re Figs 15:16:34 y0 15:16:39 -!- ihope has joined. 15:16:45 It slayed me. 15:16:51 evil nodefree. 15:17:15 live node evil free no. yes? 15:17:29 Compile or die; 15:17:35 (dies) 15:18:47 whgat ius psox 15:19:02 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt 15:30:38 try talking without using that char by 'w', 'd', 'r', and '3' 15:30:55 (looks similar to 3 backwards.) 15:31:11 Why? 15:31:15 it's hard. 15:32:03 * Sgeo ruins it by having a nick that is what it is 15:32:08 :P 15:32:25 that contains it, anyway. 15:32:58 I'm going to violate it now so I don't feel compelled to twist my words when talking about PSOX 15:33:28 I should put goo on that writing-button to stop my inclination to it.... 15:35:59 It will twist your writing around... 15:36:14 I don't want that when discussing PSOX 15:36:24 :P 15:37:29 But it will look so cool if anybody finds it... or it could just look awkward... 15:37:36 *shrug* 16:10:48 -!- Nightrose has joined. 16:11:33 -!- Nightrose has left (?). 16:18:33 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo|Testing. 16:26:06 -!- Sgeo|Testing has changed nick to Sgeo. 16:27:08 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7038656109656489183 16:27:13 plan 9 from outer space 16:27:16 awful. 16:36:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 16:40:05 Hi poiuy_qwert 16:44:12 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:50:24 hi Sgeo 16:53:45 bbl 16:53:46 -!- Figs has left (?). 16:58:51 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:09:21 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:10:42 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 17:11:02 Hi pikhq and SEO_DUDE 17:29:55 -!- pikhq has quit (Connection timed out). 17:42:55 -!- tombom has quit. 17:45:29 Must..work..on..PSOX.. 17:51:56 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 18:00:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:06:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:09:36 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:14:55 Hi oerjan 18:15:06 IMPORTANT QUESTION TO THE FUTURE OF PSOX!!!!: 18:15:17 BOW TO ME YE MORTALS! 18:15:35 If I have a pipe to a processes stdin, can I tell when it's requesting input, or does stdin not work that way? 18:15:41 * oerjan is reading the logs 18:16:15 That is, if I'm running BF interpreter as a subprocess, will I be able to find out when the BF program does a `,`? 18:16:16 i think that depends on buffering 18:16:28 oerjan, explain more 18:16:59 -!- Figs has joined. 18:17:00 http://www.eatliver.com/i.php?n=2350 18:17:02 :D 18:17:21 Figs, do you know about stdio stuff? 18:17:34 tiny bit 18:18:01 I don't know what you want with pipes though 18:18:10 If I have a pipe to a processes stdin, does that process request things from stdin, or are things placed on stdin? 18:18:28 both, with a buffer on each side 18:18:47 How do I determine when a process requests stuff from stdin? 18:19:04 I'm surprised you didn't ask me how I knew you were going to talk about pipes... 18:19:11 you can try non-blocking I/O on one end 18:19:17 Figs, hm? 18:19:35 How? Reading the logs? 18:19:40 Or some other way? 18:19:44 yeah, I had the log open 18:19:48 however if the BF uses line buffering say, then you will not get any new information other than at line ends 18:19:51 that's how I saw people were talking in here 18:20:23 oerjan, I won't get new information about when it's requesting input? 18:20:33 sometimes I prefer to have a tab instead of a window... 18:20:36 it blinks less 18:21:00 if the BF side is line buffered then , will read an entire line into the buffer when it is empty 18:21:27 and does it let whatever's on the other side of stdin know this somehow? 18:21:33 if it is block buffered then iiuc it will read a fixed size 18:22:05 i am not sure 18:22:09 iiuc? 18:22:17 if I understand correctly 18:22:20 ah kk 18:22:20 the writing side would need to turn its buffering off at least 18:23:02 I thought stdout went to the next process in the pipe list? 18:23:08 or are we talking about something else? 18:23:16 like x|y|z 18:23:38 When a program requests something from stdin, does it tell stdin, or does whatever's sending put and leave stuff there? 18:25:01 i think possibly you should talk to a real Unix hacker :) 18:25:18 Where? 18:25:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 18:25:27 ##C? 18:25:27 And this stuff would still apply on Windows somehow 18:25:31 er, i would assume we have some 18:25:54 I'm taking a look on wikipedia, of all places :P 18:26:12 i am sure windows may do it in some completely different way :/ 18:27:04 I *assumed* that the first program would run, and then produce some output which is fed into the second program 18:27:21 if we're doing something like x|y|z 18:27:32 say, cat foo|grep ... 18:27:36 i am assuming we are talking about PSOX 18:27:57 and that PSOX wants to handle _both_ stdin and stdout, which makes things even hairier 18:28:19 it isn't unidirectional? 18:28:44 I assumed the stdin/stdout were one way communicaiton 18:28:48 *communication 18:29:01 but I'm no unix hacker ;) 18:29:02 the simplest thing is to use a request/response method, i think 18:29:41 so that PSOX only responds to requests from the interpreter, and doesn't need to worry about buffering so much 18:30:52 PSOX could use non-blocking input in case it want to do other things between requests 18:30:58 *wants 18:31:02 but `,` causes the interpreter to request on stdin 18:31:15 sgeo: http://www.pixelbeat.org/programming/stdio_buffering/ 18:31:18 is this relevant? 18:32:25 i mean, the simplest protocol is not to allow the interpreter to read without sending a request first 18:32:54 however, that of course makes mixing in ordinary I/O awkward, i guess 18:33:50 how is PSOX different from POSIX? 18:34:12 are they unrelated and just made to sound similar to confuse me? 18:34:59 "P S O X" "P Eso X" PESOX was the original name, coming from PESOIX, and "incrementing" the IX 18:35:23 kk 18:37:33 if you read in, but there is no data... wouldn't the program just stall while waiting for data? 18:37:53 unless you've defined it to allow for async 18:38:03 (like with non-blocking sockets) 18:38:11 (or whatever) 18:38:26 Ok, just for clarification, this is why I don't want to just put stuff from regular stdin to the prog's stdin: 18:38:49 If I buffer up characters, e.g. "aaa\n" 18:38:57 the prog might do 18:39:09 ,.(some function call that returns stuff) 18:39:16 but I wouldn't want the next , to be 'a' 18:39:34 returns stuff to where? 18:39:42 the BF interpreter 18:39:50 from where? 18:39:58 the PSOX server 18:40:05 that doesn't make sense 18:40:16 What do you know about PSOX? 18:40:21 Did you read the specs? 18:40:25 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt 18:40:25 De nada :) 18:40:33 but it doesn't make sense to me 18:40:53 how/why would you have a function call there? and how would it get there? 18:41:13 * Figs is trying to understand your project 18:41:51 It lets a language such as BF do things with the outside world 18:42:08 the BF might call a function by outputting 0x00 0x02 0x00 0x01 or whatevre 18:42:13 And that might return something 18:42:34 oh, I see. 18:42:40 I knew the first bit 18:42:50 (we've babbled with each other on this before) 18:43:04 I don't want to just put the return stuff in stdin with stuff from the outside world 18:43:19 why not have a different stream in? 18:43:24 Figs, hm? 18:43:31 it's just files 18:43:33 To the BF interpreter? 18:43:46 so you open a new connection/pipe/file/whatever 18:44:00 By "BF Interpreter" I meant a black box for any esolang 18:44:10 I can't modify it 18:44:40 the only other way I can see it working is if you make stdin say where the data is coming from 18:44:54 hm 18:44:59 (which would make programing in bf, etc much harder) 18:45:07 ex, each byte is really 2 bytes of input 18:45:13 first is a description of where it is from 18:45:21 I was thinking, if I absolutely HAD to, I could make the reply wait until a newline 18:45:32 00 = regular, 01 = return from psox special... 02 = whatever 18:45:35 The BF program would have to loop until 0x0A 18:46:29 hm, actually, I'm not sure if that would even work.. 18:46:43 well, you could reduce the amount of bytes needed that way 18:46:48 in terms of description 18:46:57 ie, after an 0x0A, next byte is descriptor... 18:46:59 I mean, I'm not sure how that could be implemented either 18:47:28 Although.. 18:47:41 you have a current buffer in use flag, and then before loading next buffer line, you see if you have a message waiting, process all messages, then load up the next one? 18:47:49 (in your PSOX server or whatever) 18:48:37 But what if I check to see if I have a message waiting before the BF program or whatever outputs that it wants to do something? 18:48:56 ? 18:50:22 How do I tell the different between ,.(function call) and .(functioncall),(get result)? 18:50:33 er 18:50:41 How do I tell the different between ,(regularinput).(function call) and .(functioncall),(get result)? 18:50:59 the first byte is the source? 18:51:29 it doesn't really matter what the program gets back, it has to figure out how to handle it, doesn't it? 18:51:43 if you say where it is from 18:53:11 icky complexity 18:53:43 true, but I don't see how else you can get around it without providing another source of input and shoving it to the interpreter writer to comply 18:53:58 then again 18:54:04 I am no expert on Unix. 18:54:55 Hell, I don't even own a computer than runs a Unix/Linux/etc system 18:54:58 :P 18:55:11 what about eunuchs? 18:55:42 ... 18:56:02 :P 18:56:08 ok, maybe this will help explain: My wrapper program needs to put one thing into the other apps stdin if the other app retrieves information at one time, and something else if it's a different time 18:58:01 do you have the format you want to return the data in? 18:58:10 hm? 18:58:16 what about a rapper program? 18:58:20 I was just speculating on how to return the data 18:58:33 did I miss the forest here? :P 18:58:48 It depends on the function being called, and can be arbitrary if it's from regular stdin 18:58:49 (yes figs, you missed the whole friggen planet!) 18:59:16 what I assumed made sense was you'd have something like 18:59:29 [description byte] data data data \n \0 18:59:32 as a message 18:59:39 and each message would be contained 19:00:02 (it doesn't make sense to me to fragment a message) 19:00:15 hm maybe 19:00:25 but that's still a PITA for the BF or whatever programmer 19:00:34 PITA? 19:00:38 oh 19:00:39 :P 19:00:52 I guess I assumed it would be regardless? 19:01:10 BF wasn't made to be easy... :P 19:01:21 (for the end user, anyway) 19:01:24 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:01:26 (or end coder?) 19:01:35 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-newline-demo.b 19:02:23 see where there's the ,, and ,,, I don't want to make response retrieval insane 19:02:54 I assumed you'd retrieve most responses with something like 19:03:04 >,[>,] 19:03:18 then <[<] 19:03:19 -!- ehird` has joined. 19:03:35 Figs, that could be used if you want to store responses 19:03:37 >[ /*handle it*/] 19:03:41 -!- Tritonio has joined. 19:03:53 But it would still be a PITA to work with if extra stuff is added.. 19:03:58 hm 19:04:29 0x00 0x00 0x01 to retrieve data from stdin up to the next newline with a courtesy 0x00 after it? 19:04:40 and , would then be used for responses? 19:05:07 well, I'd think the first byte you'd pull off should tell you where it's from 19:05:28 hm, then I could make 0x00 0x00 0x00 be go into output mode 19:05:45 *shrug* ok 19:05:55 and then regular commands would not need an escape thing 19:06:04 a bit convoluted though 19:06:08 But should still be usable 19:06:11 yay! 19:06:14 Except how would binary IO work? 19:07:41 make the first byte output describe what it does 19:07:57 if it's a binary output 19:07:59 then 19:08:13 you write the size after that 19:08:18 in # of bytes that follow 19:08:23 do it in 7-bit mode 19:08:28 so like, 19:09:04 I can describe formats for strings w/ NUL 19:09:11 yeah 19:09:15 but for binary 19:09:17 you need a length 19:09:21 you can do it like midi does 19:09:30 one of which is terminate on unescaped NUL, and 0x01 escapes 19:09:40 using a bit to say last size 19:10:03 like if you had Mddd dddd Mddd dddd 19:10:13 where M is either 1 for more or 0 for done 19:10:30 assuming that *typically* you'd want a small amount of output 19:10:35 another is something like indicator bytes: 0x01 if a byte follows, 0x00 if no byte follows 19:10:40 (if that's not the case, then switch it) 19:10:44 0x01 some byte 0x01 another 0x00 19:11:03 you can do that too 19:11:13 I already have the strings defined, just not down in the specs 19:11:25 This is going to be another complete change in PSOX 19:11:47 drive people crazy you will, :) 19:12:09 but eh, it's meant to be confusing isn't it? this *is* #esoteric after all... 19:12:19 * Sgeo didn't WANT it to be confusing 19:12:24 oh :'( 19:12:33 I guess I've been doing too much obfuscated C 19:12:38 getting to my head :) 19:13:43 You know, last night, I was assuming I'd be done with PSOX in some hours 19:14:32 I'm going to special case domains 0 and 1 19:14:36 and 2 will be system 19:14:42 though that will be awkward 19:15:47 (1<:"0 0"] <<1)+3; 19:15:59 eh? 19:16:12 that's 67 (or ascii c) 19:16:15 *C 19:16:37 it does look awful though, doesn't it? :P 19:19:37 well it's basically (1["0 0"] << 1)+3 which is ("0 0"[1] << 1)+3 which is (' ' << 1) +3 which is (32 << 1) +3 which is 64 +3 which is 67 19:19:49 yes :) 19:20:02 it's not very complicated 19:20:11 that's just an appearance hack :P 19:20:16 It's very complicated to someone who doesn't know C 19:20:35 What's <:? 19:20:40 its the same as [ 19:20:48 for people who have keyboards that don't have [ 19:21:01 but the trick is <: ] work together 19:21:08 <: :> is how you'd usually write it 19:23:17 PSOX will be line buffered 19:23:36 ok 19:23:40 cool 19:23:43 g'luck :) 19:23:50 ty I need it 19:24:58 actually, scrath that maybe 19:28:11 * Figs scratches 19:28:46 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 19:39:52 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 19:48:51 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 19:49:56 -!- sp3tt has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:50:05 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:50:17 -!- ehird` has joined. 19:55:43 -!- sp3tt has joined. 20:59:17 -!- RedDak has joined. 21:33:41 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:40:19 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:42:11 -!- Figs has left (?). 21:46:28 -!- RedDak has joined. 22:15:08 aaagh 22:15:18 what's a symmetric monoid? 22:16:34 symmetric? 22:17:29 "(N/=, +, 0) is a symmetric monoid" 22:17:40 where = has 3 lines 22:18:38 well i guess it could either be an analogy to symmetric group, or a misspelling of commutative 22:21:20 http://www.lfcs.inf.ed.ac.uk/reports/91/ECS-LFCS-91-180/ECS-LFCS-91-180.ps 22:21:22 page 8 22:22:04 i'm not set up to view postscript 22:22:53 http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/ECS-LFCS-91-180.pdf 22:25:48 my hunch is that it means "commutative" 22:51:03 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 2007-09-08: 00:01:46 bsmnhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetric_monoidal_category 00:01:53 bsmntbombdood: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetric_monoidal_category 00:01:59 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:02:12 -!- ehird` has joined. 00:03:03 ehird`: i strongly doubt those pi-calculus people meant anything that advanced :D 00:03:24 Ooh, pi calculus. 00:03:31 I should study it eventually. 00:03:37 * bsmntbombdood is trying to learn it 00:03:50 And gauge theory, which is oh-so-important for particle physics. At least, it seems important. 00:08:24 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 00:33:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:36:29 Hi all 00:36:42 * Sgeo pokes ihope, oerjan oklopol 00:36:50 and ehird` 00:36:50 Ello. 00:36:55 Who's oerjan oklopol? 00:36:59 Or is oerjan the new and? 00:37:05 :-P 00:37:24 well, if bsmntbombdood is xor... 00:37:39 I'm completely redoing PSOX 00:41:27 Anyone going to ask me why? 00:42:13 Sgeo: Self-whoring. 00:43:23 As far as I can tell, it would be near-impossible for the server to determine when the client is requesting input.. 00:45:17 -!- ehird` has quit. 00:45:22 The system domain is moving to 0x02 00:45:29 0x00 and 0x01 will be special cased 00:45:44 0x00 0x00 is 'print next character safely' 00:45:55 and does not require a 0x0A after it 00:46:39 0x00 0x01 will be for input 00:46:46 * Sgeo gets to writing the revised specs 00:52:10 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 01:00:54 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:40:00 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 02:00:36 argh 02:00:45 BRB then I'll start writing the new specs for real 02:00:59 (x){x(x)}((x){x(x)}) 02:01:06 hm? 02:01:13 \mnfx.mf(nfx) 02:01:29 No, the equivalent is \x.xx \x.xx 02:01:40 you need a () 02:05:07 eh? 02:05:50 egads 02:16:37 pi calculus is teh confusing 02:16:48 i don't understand the new thing 02:24:10 Yay, pi calculus. 02:24:27 And suddenly, I wonder why I've been writing (\x.xx)(\x.xx) instead of (\x.xx)\x.xx... or have I? :-P 02:26:28 run to the hills 02:26:32 run for your life 02:29:58 lambda calculus is so easy to understand, why not pi? 02:33:49 Because it's different? 02:33:54 Go learn gauge theory instead! 02:34:32 Or get a parallel text description of pi calculus. 02:34:50 Formal on one side, intuitive on the other. 02:35:09 bleh at input function 02:35:47 `,` won't be enough to get input in PSOX anymore 02:35:58 ^^main point of the revisions 02:38:01 * Sgeo was thinking something like `[-].+..+++++++++.,` would be a (naive) replacement, but it won't 02:38:23 There will be a newline that will need to be discarded after the ,' 02:39:03 erm 02:39:32 well, it would be `[-].+..+++++++++.,,,` then an extraneous newline 02:39:48 * Sgeo pokes ihope and pikhq and people 02:41:12 Bleck. 02:41:27 That's *remarkably* bad. 02:41:55 The PSOX server needs to be told somehow to get input 02:42:01 to give to the client 02:42:48 Would taking away a `,` or two help at all? 02:43:30 Incidentally, that wouldn't be needed for every `,`, only for people who like Search&Replace and are basically idiots 02:44:44 might it help if I said that it's sending (0x00 0x01 (input function) 0x01 (number of bytes) 0x0A (newline)) and returning (EOF status) (number of successful bytes) (the byte) (newline)? 02:45:04 * Sgeo pokes pikhq 03:09:55 pikhq, http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt 03:10:00 see under Pseudodomains 03:11:05 and oklopol and GregorR and ihope and and and 03:20:57 Anyone here? 03:21:06 ihope, pikhq EgoBot GregorR ? 03:30:42 * Sgeo watches tumbleweeds float bye 03:31:46 * pikhq joins the tumbleweeds 03:32:02 erm.. 03:32:48 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:34:03 pikhq, any comments? 03:55:10 psox has not sense 04:21:35 * Sgeo makes a #PSOX 04:23:33 * bsmntbombdood makes a #doesn't-care 04:23:50 * Sgeo enters that channel 04:23:54 >.> 04:24:00 * Sgeo pokes pikhq and ihope and and and 04:38:20 -!- rutlov has joined. 04:46:20 -!- rutlov has left (?). 05:37:14 -!- catron has joined. 05:37:25 hello my fellow devs 05:37:40 Hi catron. 05:37:54 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt 05:40:17 -!- calamari has joined. 05:41:38 Hi calamari 05:41:45 hi Sgeo 05:41:47 calamari, you're the PESOIX person? 05:41:59 not exactly 05:42:08 I was working on an implementation of it 05:42:15 oh 05:42:23 He designed the precursor to PESOIX, IIRC. 05:42:25 Integrated with a BF interpreter? 05:42:34 I defined ESOApi 05:42:36 Or separate? 05:42:37 oh 05:42:53 it was for Linux 05:42:56 Because if it was separate, I'd really like to know how it was done 05:42:59 (PESOIX) 05:43:18 I couldn't get the piping to work correctly, so the project got stuck 05:43:22 ah 05:43:45 couldn't determine when the BF interpreter or whatever wanted input? 05:43:49 ESO api was implemented as a 512-byte x86 boot sector 05:44:07 Sgeo: yeah it buffers stuff and messes it all up 05:44:14 buffers stuff? 05:44:25 Sgeo: the OS 05:44:30 Is it possible to find out when a program is requesting input? 05:44:34 Or is that meaningless? 05:44:39 Sgeo: yes and no 05:44:45 calamari, how? 05:45:04 The oft-broached idea of the Brainfuck OS. . . 05:45:16 pikhq: broached? 05:45:29 calamari, how do I determine when the program requests input? 05:45:34 calamari: Excuse me, I may be using odd vocabulary ATM. 05:45:47 My brain is getting shot by it being 11. . . 05:45:57 And me having woken up at 5:20 today. 05:45:59 It's 12:45AM here.. 05:46:08 calamari, how? 05:46:19 pikhq: nah my vocabulary is just smaller it seems 05:46:41 Sgeo: I don't remember all the details anymore.. that was a long time ago 05:46:50 For the buffering issue, I just sticked newlines everywhere 05:47:08 Sgeo: I was trying to do it so that interpreters wouldn't need to be modified 05:47:10 But that doesn't help me know when the program is requesting stuff on stdin 05:47:11 (transitive) (figuratively) To begin discussion about (something). 05:47:14 From Wiktionary. 05:47:14 calamari, same here 05:47:37 although I'm thinking about my own spec, PSOX 05:47:42 Guess I was using valid verbiage, even at this time of night. 05:47:58 calamari: Let me just say that PSOX seems to be a sanely-done PESOIX for the most part. 05:48:08 pikhq, did you see the changes? 05:48:10 pikhq: yeah .. I looked it up in my paperback dict 05:48:24 (although I need to look at the spec when I feel more ready & awake for programmatical thought) 05:48:28 Not yet. 05:48:43 * Sgeo made it so that the BF program needs to send a command in order to receive input 05:48:49 anyhow, after all the bf os talk, I seem to be so far the only one who has actually done anything about it.. that I am aware of anyhow 05:48:59 * pikhq nods 05:49:08 Hmm. 05:49:12 because I can't seem to work out how to detect when something requests stuff on stdin 05:49:20 * pikhq notes that calamari missed out on PEBBLEversary. :p 05:49:24 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt 05:49:42 (new version, with a bit of strangeness due to copy&paste goodness 05:50:04 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-old.txt is without the send-a-command-to-get-input thing 05:50:43 * Sgeo pokes calamari to those URLs 05:51:13 hm, the "To map a longname (e.g. "http://example.com/longname") to 05:51:13 an odd shortname (e.g. 0x03):" thing is a bit dated 05:51:16 I don't like the idea of needing a PSOX command to get something from stdin. . . 05:51:44 If there's a better way to do it, like knowing when the client requests data from stdin, I'm all for it 05:51:56 But if there isn't.. 05:52:02 It makes it exceptionally hard to get PEBBLE to work with PSOX. 05:52:12 eh? 05:52:12 PEBBLEversary? 05:52:21 calamari: One year of PEBBLE development. 05:52:40 Sgeo: I was thinking about having PSOX just be supported via some additional macros. . . 05:52:58 couldn't an input macro output some stuff too? 05:53:12 "input" is a builtin. 05:53:25 make a p_input macro 05:53:29 guess I need to catch up.. 05:53:33 * calamari looks up PEBBLE 05:53:45 calamari: BFM got renamed to PEBBLE. 05:53:54 A few months ago. ;) 05:54:03 ahh 05:54:06 Sgeo: Removing source-compatibility. 05:54:36 pikhq, eh? Programs not written for PSOX don't need to be compatible with PSOX 05:54:39 erm.. 05:54:59 A program written for PEBBLE should work regardless of the target language. 05:55:01 If PSOX-Init isn't the first thing output, PSOX ignores it 05:55:16 (unless it uses a language-specific feature) 05:55:38 PEBBLE programs that don't output PSOX-Init will still work 05:55:45 Same thing that PESOIX does 05:55:51 You don't seem to get the point. . . 05:56:11 I want the same PEBBLE input to work regardless of whether it targets Brainfuck or PSOX+Brainfuck. 05:56:44 I want to be able to just plug in PFUCK and PSOX-specific versions of the PEBBLE macros and get a program taking advantage of PSOX. 05:57:09 ..That's meaningless. If it uses no PSOX features, then it just targets BF 05:57:26 * pikhq beats Sgeo for being clueless 05:57:41 The PSOX-specific versions of PEBBLE macros could well be using PSOX features. 05:58:18 I don't want to rewrite *every single PEBBLE program* to be able to take advantage of features added by PSOX, when I could just rewrite the PEBBLE stdlib instead. 05:58:24 So if it wants to take advantage of PSOX then it needs to emit PSOX-Init at the beginning anyway, and be written for PSOX 05:58:38 oh 05:58:38 * pikhq beats Sgeo some more. 05:59:26 So instead of having to replace stuff, you just want to be able to add PSOX stuff in, and not worry about s/input/p_input/? 05:59:35 Yes. 06:00:20 Memo me if you can solve the pipes problem 06:00:25 G'night 06:00:26 Now, an easy way to tell whether a program wants to read a return code. . . If there is a return value that has not been read, put that into stdin. 06:00:37 Erm. 06:00:40 hm? 06:01:25 read_from_stdin(){if(return_code_not_read()) putchar (return code); else putchar (getchar());} 06:01:52 What's return_code_not_read()? 06:02:18 ... 06:02:29 A chunk of psuedocode? 06:02:32 Imean, how does it work? 06:02:56 I guess, if the stdin pipe or whatever holds a readable queue.. 06:03:04 If there's something returned from a PSOX function that hasn't been received yet, it returns true. Otherwise, it returns false. . . 06:03:19 Can I tell if it's been received yet? 06:03:31 Imagine that you've got a queue into which PSOX function return values are put into. 06:04:08 You pop from that when reading a return code. . . If the queue is empty, everything has been received by the program. 06:04:31 How do I know that the client wants to read anything? 06:04:37 and thus to pop something? 06:05:07 Hmm. 06:05:53 Easier solution: just always put return values to the program's stdin, and take advantage of file-stream buffering. 06:06:18 file-stream buffering? 06:06:37 cat foo | bar 06:06:55 How could I take advantage of that like that? 06:06:58 Ignore my "easier solution"'s explanation. 06:07:39 In that pipe (as with any other pipe), cat won't output everything at once. When it outputs something, the output function makes it halt until bar reads from its stdin. 06:08:00 How does it do that? That's what I need 06:08:17 It does that via the magic of Unix. 06:08:23 ..I mean, unless it's really putting things into a stdin queue for bar.. 06:08:30 pikhq, can I hook into it easily? 06:08:45 Just set up a pipe; it's a fairly mundane part of the POSIX API. 06:09:07 But I need to know WHEN bar requests input 06:09:17 Before or after bar outputted some command.. 06:10:08 * pikhq beats his head into the desk 06:10:13 pikhq, hm? 06:11:39 If there is anything on PSOX-interp's stdin, put that into PSOX-program's stdin. Then, if a command is executed, put that command's result to PSOX-program's stdin. 06:11:45 There, your algorithm. 06:12:38 hmm.. 06:12:39 G'night 06:12:44 g'night 06:12:45 Memo me with any more thoughts 06:12:53 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 06:26:20 -!- catron has left (?). 06:56:41 -!- g4lt-mordant has changed nick to g4lt-xperienced. 06:56:48 -!- g4lt-xperienced has changed nick to g4lt-eexperience. 06:57:16 -!- g4lt-eexperience has changed nick to g4lt-experienced. 07:27:58 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:06:23 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:47:19 -!- RedDak has joined. 11:04:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:38:24 -!- jix has joined. 13:07:09 -!- ehird`_ has joined. 13:37:40 so, bsmntbombdood = xor 13:37:41 oerjan = and? 13:38:07 that IS the NATURELLE CONCLUSION 13:38:38 i like the NATURALLE CONCLUSION 13:39:25 hmm 13:39:27 what is just normal or 13:39:59 gregOR, perhaps 13:40:00 how about or = GregorR, not = ihope 13:40:04 whoa 13:40:05 we think alike 13:40:39 hmm 13:40:52 implies = pikhq? 13:42:01 ok 13:42:05 P = RodgerTheGreat 13:42:14 Q = ? 13:42:26 sukoshi 13:42:53 ok 13:43:05 what about ( and ) 13:43:15 aha 13:43:25 since they have no "real" value 13:43:26 bots. 13:43:35 bsmnt_bot = ( 13:43:37 cmeme = ) 13:43:58 Sukoshi oerjan bsmnt_bot Sukoshi pikhq RodgerTheGreat cmeme 13:45:00 if i have got the notation right, that is Q and ( Q implies P ) 13:47:15 ihope bsmnt_bot RodgerTheGreat oerjan ihope RodgerTheGreat cmeme 14:20:17 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:33:37 :D 14:33:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("Dinner"). 14:50:47 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:50:59 -!- jix has joined. 15:09:51 woah, kickass. I'm a variable. :D 15:17:47 :) 15:18:34 although operators are pretty sweet as well 15:18:46 i wouldn't trust you to operate on anyone, RodgerTheGreat 15:19:06 yeah, I'm no doctor. I am, however, a SCIENTIST! 15:19:30 oh god i hope not 15:21:23 don't you mean "ihope ihope"? 15:21:32 X( see what i mean 15:21:53 hm 15:22:08 speaking of esoteric thinsg, 15:22:12 *things 15:22:37 does a Python-based music programming software count? 15:22:50 here's the "official" lowdown on what that actually means: 15:22:51 "The idea is that you have various instruments - which are (suprise suprise) Python classes, and you write some code using a library which takes some input parameters, does something (Runs a cellular automata? Generates a sine wave? Distorts a sample in some way?) and returns some audio. Now, for each track in the application you write code to call the various instruments, and the track's volume etc. plus you can write a sort of middle 15:22:58 (did that all get through?) 15:23:46 "...plus you can write a sort of middle" 15:23:58 ware for a whole track which will apply to all audio played on it. Then it just mixes it together and produces the track." 15:25:25 interesting 15:26:02 would the "track" ultimately sound musical or consist of usable binary data of some kind (or both, via some odd interlacing method or somesuch?) 15:26:24 well, it depends. 15:26:31 you write the instruments and arrange them, after all 15:26:43 but that's just a frontend (exporting or playing back etc) 15:27:18 probably i'd just code it so it can play the track back or export to .wav/PCM 15:27:24 two most common operations i'd say 15:29:44 :) 15:30:41 so last night I wrote another scripting language 15:31:23 oo 15:31:27 this one actually seems pretty useful, but I'm still tweaking the syntax a bit 15:31:52 it has recursion, something akin to function pointers and some other nifty stuff 15:33:46 i think i'll implement a first prototype of that music software 15:33:50 as soon as i find an audio lib for python 15:33:50 :/ 15:33:55 go for it 15:33:58 hm 15:34:04 something that can generate tones (sine waves, etc) but can also modify samples 15:34:05 minor stumbling block 15:34:17 does python have SDL bindings? 15:34:17 (preferably everything from adding and removing single samples to changing the volume, etc) 15:34:21 and yeah, pygame 15:34:29 but pygame isn't that fun :p 15:34:31 I got the impression audio synth and the like are pretty easy in SDL 15:35:21 its not really an audio synth though is it? 15:35:33 it's just something that can morph and generate sounds 15:36:26 well, that involves exactly the same kind of stuff, at the end of the day 15:36:30 true 15:57:19 hm, i wonder how i should implement the middleware 15:57:41 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:58:46 RodgerTheGreat: have any ideas how i could implement the middleware functionality? 15:59:08 hm 15:59:40 would it just be a data structure for music that calls "instruments" in sequence, or what? 15:59:49 the idea, of course, is that you could hook up the "reverb" middleware to an instance of the "echo" middleware which is given the current track 16:00:00 something like 16:00:11 Reverb.apply(Echo.apply(self)) 16:00:14 Hi all 16:00:14 you get the idea 16:00:23 tracks would probably just be a special case of middleware 16:00:37 maybe Reverb(settings).apply(Echo(settings).apply(self)) 16:02:01 hm, no, that wouldn't be good 16:02:03 maybe: 16:02:19 echo = Echo(settings) 16:02:24 echo.apply(Reverb(settings)) 16:02:26 self.apply(echo) 16:02:48 so middleware.apply(other_middleware) morphs middleware to have other_middleware in it 16:03:51 does that sound like a good way, RodgerTheGreat? 16:03:58 could work 16:04:26 i'll write a full sort of example 16:07:17 * Sgeo pokes pikhq.. 16:07:52 and GregorR and ihope for good measure 16:10:36 Why is it that it seems no one cares? 16:12:01 * pikhq wakes 16:12:15 hi pikhq 16:12:22 Sgeo: because people do other things than talk about psox 16:12:56 * Sgeo goes to #PSOX 16:13:16 hm 16:13:57 pikhq, re: your idea, couldn't it cause a race condition or something? Or at least cause problems with users entering stuff before the program asks for it? 16:15:00 The user would need to correctly be able to determine that the program wants input, and not provide too much, I think 16:15:13 Unless the program had to scroll pass newlines maybe? 16:15:19 * Sgeo is not fully coherent right now 16:16:05 nonlogic dump is the official pastebin of here isn't it? 16:16:17 ehird`_, hm? 16:16:28 RodgerTheGreat: http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1189264162.html here's a kind of example 16:16:39 the newlines doubled up randomly in that paste o_O 16:22:39 Sgeo: Hmm. That actually is a bit tricky. 16:23:39 Incidentally, is output a builtin in PEBBLE? 16:23:57 obviously. 16:24:04 it DOES compile to brainfuck... 16:24:30 So then in any spec, output would need to be changed, or a p_output made.. 16:24:41 >.> 16:25:26 How is making a p_output different from requiring a p_input? Not that I wouldn't like a nice solution to the pipes problem that lets input be `,` mind you 16:33:37 * Sgeo pokes pikhq, then goes AFK 17:49:02 wrong 18:01:38 I might be able to get stuff to work in PEBBLE. . . 18:01:56 New PEBBLE-specific pass. 18:03:01 Provide the p_input, p_output, and p_string commands, which will output via just "," and ".", rather than the in and out macros, which will call the PESOIX functions. 18:06:19 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:08:19 -!- g4lt-experienced has changed nick to g4lt-mordant. 18:13:34 -!- sebbu has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:13:37 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:39:16 -!- KajirBot has joined. 18:40:25 -!- KajirBot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:41:12 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:42:51 -!- ehird`_ has changed nick to ehird`. 19:08:27 pikhq, you mean PSOX? 19:08:30 afk 19:08:37 Right. 19:11:35 * Sgeo is here only for a few min right now 19:11:42 I'll be back laterish maybe 19:12:31 um, actually, I can't risk the computer beeping 19:12:31 Bye 19:12:36 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 19:59:53 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:20:18 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:20:39 -!- ehird` has joined. 21:00:55 -!- importantshock has joined. 21:29:15 -!- ihope has quit ("Reconnecting..."). 22:37:45 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:38:54 Anyone here? 22:47:37 * Sgeo pokes 22:47:47 oww 22:48:09 my eye! 22:49:08 ..oops 22:49:18 *unpoke* 22:49:31 -!- calamari has joined. 22:49:35 Hi calamari 22:49:49 hi 22:49:58 Do you have any code from your implementation of PESOIX that could help me understand pipes? 22:50:19 not sure 22:50:23 let me take a look 22:53:36 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:07:06 -!- ihope has joined. 23:09:32 Hi ihope 23:09:42 Ello. 23:10:02 Uh oh. I seem to have two Firefox windows open. 23:10:24 * ihope closes... that one 23:12:01 pikhq? 23:13:18 * Sgeo safely pokes pikhq 23:15:38 Testing http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt 23:16:28 Testing PSOXURL/psox-safety.txt 23:16:31 argh 23:16:33 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/ 23:16:53 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt 23:17:27 * Sgeo pokes pikhq 23:21:26 -!- calamari has joined. 23:21:40 -!- jix has joined. 23:24:00 re calamari, hi jix 23:24:07 hi 23:24:10 moin 23:24:11 sorry, lost power 23:24:14 wb 23:24:27 I was in the process of making the pesoix files available to you 23:25:00 ty (in advance?) 23:25:06 What language is the code in? 23:25:08 * oerjan vaguely recalls someone needing a german. not why, though. 23:25:19 ehh, apache isn't cooperating.. email? (pm is fine) 23:29:18 I could do with some German chocolate cake. :-P 23:29:50 Or maybe I should call it German's chocolate cake, to sort of make a ding in that rumor. 23:29:53 Er, belief. 23:35:58 http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/Cakes/GermanChocolateCake.htm 23:36:15 indeed, i don't think Germans are big on pecans 23:36:44 i could be wrong, of course :) 23:37:21 erm, I don't know C 23:37:27 What's write(), and how does it work? 23:37:39 man write 23:37:48 Yeah, German chocolate cake was named after a guy named German, wasn't it? 23:38:22 I guess PESOIX3.c is the file I should look at for the main loop? 23:38:27 that page says so 23:38:37 calamari? 23:38:49 hi 23:39:03 Is it that PESOIX1-3.c represent attempts? 23:39:06 sorry, I don't remember anymore 23:39:09 yes 23:39:12 ty 23:39:38 and some of those other files are scripts, etc to test it 23:39:52 * Sgeo wishes he understood nonblocking I/O 23:40:00 yeah 23:40:10 /* handle esolang input requests */ 23:40:10 pthread_create(&input_thread, NULL, handle_input, NULL); 23:40:11 hm 23:40:12 like I say.. it never worked properly 23:40:14 Non-blocking I/O? Hmm, that sounds evil. 23:40:35 What is it, anyway? 23:40:35 Was it not working because of line-buffering? 23:40:46 Or for different reasons? 23:41:03 Something where I/O functions return stuff like "no input yet"? 23:41:09 I don't remember now.. maybe Gregor has a better memory than I.. I bugged him about it repeatedly 23:41:24 ihope: right 23:41:37 GregorR mentioned to me that some interpreters might require newlines 23:41:42 Fine as long as there's a "wait for input" function. 23:41:42 That is now part of the spec 23:42:08 An interface that provides a "has anything happened yet?" function but no "wait for something to happen" function is sort of broken. 23:42:10 Gah! What's pthread_create? 23:42:48 Unless, of course, providing only "has anything happened yet?" is more efficient for some reason. 23:42:49 handle_input() 23:42:52 What's this? 23:43:12 This is called IRC. You type stuff here and push this button and people see what you typed. 23:43:25 GregorR, you worked on a PESOIX implementation? 23:43:45 No? 23:44:00 I just laughed as other people tried to hook one up to interpreters that waited on \n. 23:44:16 Um.. different Gregor Richards I guess... 23:44:44 "Copyright (c) 2006 Gregor Richards " 23:45:24 Sgeo: that's Egobot code, lol 23:45:37 GregorR, is it possible to tell if a process is requesting input or not? 23:45:42 you can safely delete those, I was just using them for examples 23:45:58 PESOIX3.c has that copyright notice 23:46:22 /* handle esolang input requests */ 23:46:22 pthread_create(&input_thread, NULL, handle_input, NULL); 23:46:44 Sgeo: oh, probably because I used some of his code in there 23:46:56 Ah 23:47:05 I just need to learn what pthread_create is 23:47:21 should be in your man pages 23:47:47 sgeo@ubuntu:~$ man pthread_create 23:47:47 No manual entry for pthread_create 23:48:07 do you have all the man pages installed? 23:48:16 * Sgeo shrugs 23:49:43 sudo apt-get manpages-dev manpages-posix manpages-posix-dev 23:49:46 the input_thread thing seems to be declared, but not assigned.. 23:49:47 oops 23:49:55 sudo apt-get install manpages-dev manpages-posix manpages-posix-dev 23:50:38 then you should have all sorts of good stuff 23:51:47 * Sgeo wants this thing to work on Windows too, incidentally.. 23:52:10 ahh well then you're out of luck with that code then 23:52:19 but, but cares about Windows anymore? 23:52:24 who 23:56:18 Companies? 23:56:28 Especially Microsoft :-P 23:56:51 And people whose Linux machines don't mix with their wireless adapters. 23:59:07 my IBM Thinkpad at work runs Linux happily, including wireless 23:59:31 Does the PESOIX code know when the esolang interp. requests input? 23:59:39 "/* handle esolang input requests */ " 23:59:50 How does that work? How would I do that in Python? 2007-09-09: 00:01:02 # handle esolang input requests 00:01:03 :P 00:01:46 lol 00:02:02 I meant how would I hook something up to the esolang input requests? 00:02:57 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 00:03:31 well, let's see.. is it required to know that the esolang wants input? 00:04:45 YES 00:04:52 perhaps your pesoix just supplies output to the esolangs input when it has some available. 00:04:53 Unless I make the changes in the spec.. 00:06:03 I think I have a little I/O diagram in there 00:06:58 Let's suppose '.' is some PSOX request that returns stuff 00:07:13 How is PSOX supposed to tell the difference between ',.' and '.,' 00:07:29 One would get one thing, the other would get something else 00:09:12 Push comes to shove, see http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt 00:09:18 Under Pseudodomains 00:09:40 That's only if I can't determine when an input requests is being made, or when the size of the stdin buffer goes down 00:09:48 Obviously, you need an explicit get_stdin() function. 00:10:08 I've been thinking about it a while, and that's the only sane way to get it done. 00:10:18 You mean like in the current specs (with the PSOX input function?) 00:10:35 pikhq, is what's in the psox.txt file now sane? 00:10:48 Under Pseudodomains 00:11:27 * pikhq agrees 00:11:35 very sane. 00:11:41 :) 00:12:10 Also, I now see how I'd implement the PEBBLE pass. 00:12:27 Will your modified input thing be able to get rid of the ending newline? 00:12:38 (for fixed-byte requests) 00:13:13 No; the PEBBLE "input" command only accepts one byte of input. 00:13:47 So the substitutuonary input will read in one byte, then will it be able to discard the newline? 00:13:56 . . . Oh. 00:14:07 You know, the newline bit would still be tricky. 00:14:29 Without it, on interps. that require newlines, there might be deadlocks 00:14:30 It'd be much, much easier (maybe even possible) if the newline wasn't output. 00:16:02 Still a useful API, just hard to get to work with PEBBLE. 00:16:57 * Sgeo doesn't see a way to remove the newline 00:19:44 pikhq, is it workable with the newline? 00:21:03 Not for PEBBLE. 00:21:09 D: 00:21:15 For raw Brainfuck, sure, just not for PEBBLE. . . 00:21:50 There's no way it can be taken out unless it runs on interpreters that don't need newlines or something 00:22:22 0x00 0x02 0x09 0x0A: Returns a single char from stdin. 00:24:08 It would cause deadlock on some interpreters 00:24:27 Um, wha? 00:24:45 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:24:46 Suppose I requested a character like that, then read in 00:24:55 ',' is blocking, so I wait 00:25:07 but the interp doesn't send it until it gets the newline 0x0A 00:25:19 But that's not going to come because the BF prog isn't requesting it 00:25:25 "interp"? 00:25:31 esolang interpreter 00:25:34 Which interp? PSOX interpreter? Esolang interpreter? 00:25:38 Oh. 00:26:05 I don't think that's how it works. 00:26:44 hm? 00:27:07 A lot of esolang interpreters use buffered input, which may work *somewhat* like that when called from a shell. . . 00:27:42 But you can just flush the stream going to the esolang interpreter, and the ',' will stop blocking. 00:27:58 oO I can? 00:28:03 Are you _sure_? 00:28:06 (it just so happens that outputting 0x0A also flushs a stream) 00:28:19 * Sgeo pokes GregorR 00:28:20 Erm. 00:28:29 * pikhq pokes GregorR, too. Tell us if we're idiots. 00:35:32 GregorR, you there? 00:40:18 What's this? 00:40:22 I'm confused by the above statements. 00:40:53 If you have a pipe to some other program, and that other program is buffering, you can't force it to take all your input, only it can. 00:41:13 GregorR, and are there interpreters that will take it in only after a newline? 00:41:18 *esolang interpreters 00:41:27 Well, it's not as likely to do that on input as on output. 00:41:58 Are there some that do? 00:42:44 I'm muddling in my head exactly what happens in various situations here ... 00:43:48 I don't /think/ that fread buffer. fgets() always waits for a newline or EOF, regardless of the input source, but it's unlikely that that would be used. 00:43:51 very off topic, GregorR don't get derailed 00:44:13 http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/hanoi.bf 00:44:17 Terrible code 00:44:21 >< and <> found 00:44:27 Sgeo: It's generated. 00:44:44 Also, that poorly generated code is part of the impetus for PEBBLE in the first place. ;) 00:44:45 Plus arbitrary [-] at the beginning.. 00:44:48 If fread doesn't buffer, and stdin is a pipe, then you just have to make sure you've forced the pipe not to buffer the other way. 00:45:04 GregorR, 'buffer the other way'? 00:45:23 The PSOX interpreter would have to make sure it's not buffering the output back over the pipe. 00:45:42 That is to say: The buffering problem is primarily on writing. 00:46:06 Ok, so remove the 0x0A requirement on returned things? 00:46:18 *things returned from PSOX functions? 00:46:20 I don't see why? 00:46:40 Can it hurt? 00:46:55 Extraneous 0x0A's sent to BF programs == not fun' 00:47:00 It can if the PSOX interpreter is poorly written. 00:47:17 So I'd write big fat warnings about buffering into the docs :) 00:47:21 Other than that, shouldn't hurt. 00:47:41 * GregorR goes to take a shower. 00:47:52 -!- ehird` has quit. 00:48:01 * Sgeo needs to eat now 00:48:08 * Sgeo will modify the specs after he eats 00:48:19 Sgeo: Allow me to provide one recommendation for you. . . Believe me, math functions would help a lot with Brainfuck. 00:54:52 brainfuck is imperative 01:02:18 bsmntbombdood: Well aware. 01:14:16 pikhq, what domain would they go into? 01:14:23 Domain 0x04? 01:14:37 Which would be renamed from I/O Utils to.. "Utils"? 01:14:41 "Misc"? 01:15:03 pikhq, and should the functions just accept and return longnums? 01:16:17 Sgeo: It'd also be nice to just do 8-bit nums via PSOX rather than raw Brainfuck. 01:16:47 Well, any 8-bit num is just 0x01 byte 0x00 01:16:58 But I guess I can make single-byte versions.. 01:17:52 But it wouldn't be a wrapping 8-bit that way. 01:18:13 * Sgeo was wondering how overflows should be handled.. 01:18:18 and what about negative numbers? 01:18:31 Status code byte? 01:18:48 Should I have a separate domain for math from the Simple I/O domain? 01:18:53 Or one "Utils" 01:19:08 Overflows don't happen in Galois fields. 01:19:17 0x02 at the start of a longnum indicating that it's negative? 01:19:18 ..? Galois fields? 01:19:32 pikhq, yes, but for the single-byte functions.. 01:19:42 Number systems with finite numbers of numbers. 01:19:58 (That happen to be fields.) 01:20:04 Like the integers modulo 7. 01:20:40 We're dealing with integers mod 256, I think 01:21:01 Ah. 01:21:41 Assume that you're dealing with unsigned integers. 01:21:59 So what happens when something requests 1 - 2? 01:22:04 status byte? 01:22:24 Modulo 256, 1 - 2 = 255. 01:22:29 Though I suggest a carry bit :-P 01:23:53 ihope: I don't. 01:24:04 You don't? 01:24:07 That's the exact behavior of an unsigned char on my system. ;) 01:24:37 1 - 2 gives 255 and sets the carry bit to... 1, I guess. 01:24:57 And, since the reason for these functions is to be easier-to-use equivalents of an 8-bit Brainfuck's mod 256 math operators, carry bits don't make much sense. 01:25:16 Or maybe 1 - 2 is the same as 1 + -2, and evaluating -2 at all ones the carry bit. 01:25:17 do status bytes make sense? 01:25:41 0x01 if everything's ok, 0x00 if overflow in one direction or the other? 01:28:15 I find doing it the other way around slightly more elegant. 01:28:38 But in BF, ' 01:28:43 1 for wrap, 0 for no wrap. 01:28:44 But in BF, '[' 01:28:46 argh 01:29:04 * ihope hands Sgeo a potion of holy water 01:29:05 But in BF, '[' is a sort of "if nonzero" 01:29:07 #dip your enter key in this. 01:29:12 lol 01:30:24 Well, at least in PEBBLE's addvar macro, I have the ability to throw that stuff away. 01:32:42 We're sticking with the input function thingy? 01:33:08 aka giving up on piping? 01:33:12 er, the problem 01:34:58 hm, it looks like I never wrote in the specs that functions return a mandatory 0x0A 01:36:10 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 01:37:10 "If an attempt is made to map a longname onto an occupied shortname," 01:37:15 What should be next? 01:37:27 Should I have it fail, or replace the old one? 01:37:31 Fail. 01:37:38 pikhq, comments? 01:37:38 Well. 01:37:51 Fail if there's a way to make it replace the old one; replace the old one if there's a way to put it back. 01:38:41 Way to put it back: Do the thing that got the original there in the first place 01:38:52 Incidentally, there will be no status code for that function 01:40:53 pikhq, agree or disagree? 01:41:56 * Sgeo puts "replace" in there 01:42:17 What does "Fail if there's a way to make it replace the old one" mean? 01:44:43 What I mean is to make sure that the option you go with can easily simulate the other one. 01:44:56 oh 01:45:11 With no arbitrary overhead, preferably. 01:45:27 I mean, the client must have put the original there anyway, so it can replace i 01:45:43 So "replace", since there will be no explicit replace function 01:46:02 ty ihope 01:52:40 Sgeo: Why not have an explicit remove function, though? 01:52:49 -!- Figs has joined. 01:52:54 !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++<-]>++++++.---.+++++.+++++++.+++. 01:52:58 LINUX 01:53:25 NO 01:54:02 the C version was cooler... 01:54:36 () 01:55:05 pikhq, it's unneeded? 01:55:21 Sgeo: Hmm. You've got a point there. 01:55:40 I'd say that replacing it wouldn't violate the law of least surprise. 01:57:15 Should I bother including stuff for strings that can contain NULs? 01:59:04 I thought that much had already been discussed. 01:59:27 It's not in the specs yet 01:59:30 * Sgeo will put it in 02:01:31 "RStrings are like NUL-terminated strings except that they can contain NULs. 02:01:31 0x01 escapes a 0x00, so that "0x01 0x00" resolves to "0x00". 0x01 also escapes 0x01, 02:01:31 so "0x01 0x00" resolves to "0x01". A "0x01" followed by anything else removes the 0x01." 02:01:33 That good? 02:02:01 the last bit causes 0x01 to be like a "safe escape" 02:02:31 ..and also makes Longstrings valid as RStrings.. 02:02:35 * Sgeo noticed 02:05:19 * Sgeo pokes ihope and pikhq 02:05:28 I have been poked! 02:06:11 * Sgeo was thinking of XStrings as something that could contain a Longstring, RString, or NUL-terminated string 02:06:19 But all Longstrings are RStrings.. 02:06:40 Sounds complicated. 02:06:58 Hmm.. 02:07:22 Maybe this: PSOX functions that deal with stuff with NULs should accept RStrings, and return Longstrings.. 02:07:36 I didn't solve all your problems yesterday? :'( I'm sorry 02:10:04 Check out the new http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt .. look under Longstrings and RStrings 02:11:03 * Sgeo pokes pikhq 02:11:17 Is having most functions return Longstrings good for PEBBLE? 02:11:30 erm, most that need data with embedded NUL's 02:11:36 *return 02:13:50 Loop N: Read a byte. If it's 0, output N. Otherwise, read N-1 more bytes and loop the concatenation of the first byte and the rest of the bytes. 02:13:51 Loop 1. 02:14:12 eh? 02:14:38 Essentially, a number is represented by the number of bytes in the number, followed by the number itself. 02:14:47 Given that nothing in PEBBLE even assumes a *string*, the format of a longstring wouldn't matter much; anything assuming a string would be added for the sake of PSOX. 02:15:04 "The number of bytes" is a number in this format, while "the number itself" is just a number. 02:15:10 All this is terminated with a 0. 02:15:50 ihope, that isn't good for BF and it can only provide a finite amount of numbers anyway.. 02:15:59 I've thought about the number problem before.. 02:16:09 What do you mean, it can only provide a finite amount of numbers? 02:16:32 The number itself can only be 256 bytes 02:16:55 Imean, unless I'm understanding you incorrectly.. 02:17:10 The number of bytes is given as a number in this format, not as a byte. 02:17:29 um.. recursive? 02:17:29 Er, hmm. 02:17:37 Yes, it is recursive. 02:17:53 Essentially, it's SADOL's number system, minus the commas in front and plus a 0 on the end. 02:18:08 My longnum format is nice and simple and readable easily by BF 02:18:17 Indeed, that's very true. 02:18:57 Incidentally, with the HTTP domain, it won't use longnums for HTTP status codes.. 02:19:09 Strings, instead? 02:19:15 fixed bytes 02:19:18 Ah. 02:19:25 eg. 404 would be 0x04 0x04 02:19:32 500 would be 0x05 0x00 02:20:47 Since HTTP status codes like 404 are understood like 4|04 02:21:43 Any comments on strings? 02:22:06 and the input function was updated 02:22:25 Time to write an example for the new PSOX? 02:28:25 o.o 02:28:32 Figs, hm? 02:28:40 what is 0x4 0xFF then? 02:28:48 *04 02:29:02 Meaningless 02:29:06 ok 02:29:15 4 times final fantasy! :P 02:29:19 lol 02:35:12 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-new-cat.b 02:35:34 * Sgeo vaguely hopes he didn't make a mistake 02:36:13 oO I did 02:37:25 Ok fixe 02:37:27 *fixed 02:38:22 * Sgeo pokes ihope, Figs, and pikhq 02:39:11 ¡Me he pocado! 02:39:13 :-P 02:40:46 hi 02:41:06 Note the PSOX example 02:41:09 any comments? 02:41:19 did you realize that your name contains: pi hoe? 02:41:35 ..no 02:41:40 also "oh pie" 02:41:50 (this is, of course, @ihope) 02:41:54 oh 02:42:08 lol 02:42:15 Oh pie! I'm a pi hoe! 02:43:26 reminds me of reddit enumerating the fibonacci #s 02:43:48 speaking of which, I haven't checked xkcd in a while... 02:44:47 oh 02:44:55 I should set an alarm for "13:37" 02:45:19 Sometimes, I'm still awake at 3:14 and I say "pi time!' 02:45:33 "4:04 -- Sleep Not Found" 02:55:47 Indeed, the fact that stuff starts in the morning is unfortunate. 02:55:57 Why can't they start school at 8:40 instead of 7:40? 02:56:00 And why does it matter? 02:56:59 Maybe all geeks suffer from DSPS. 02:57:51 I'd prefer to have school start at, say, 10. 02:58:41 DSPS? 02:58:51 * Sgeo 'd prefer to have school 02:58:58 Delayed sleep phase syndrome. 02:59:14 Not being able to fall asleep until a certain (very late) time. 02:59:20 At least, that's how I understand it. 02:59:29 I don't have class till 3 on most days 02:59:34 :) 02:59:44 tues, thurs, friday though I have it at 8 :( 02:59:52 but it's CS and Logic, so meh :P 03:00:15 I've got high school. :/ 03:00:28 * Sgeo graduated recently :/ 03:00:29 If it's a US high school (which it isn't), I'm going to complain non-stop to my parents until we move there. 03:00:39 Don't tell me high school starts at the same time nationwide. 03:01:08 It's 10 PM right now. I simply don't want to sleep. 03:01:29 i'm always tired in the mornings and untired in the nights, no matter how much i sleep 03:01:45 If it weren't for parents and school, I think I would indeed not fall asleep until about 4 AM. 03:02:34 that's what i do in the summer 03:02:46 I'd probably fall into an approximately 26 hour day. 03:03:06 (that being what I do when no time requirements are placed on me) 03:03:28 Though I don't have school in the summer, my mom apparently doesn't want my sleep cycle to be hours behind that of the rest of the family. 03:04:13 parents are like that :/ 03:04:35 college 03:04:36 My mother's disciplinary action consists (almost?) entirely of yelling at me if she's displeased. 03:04:39 right because your future employer is going to care all about your sleep schedule 03:04:42 I just graduated highschool recently :) 03:05:05 Therefore, she has to tell me several times before I actually do something. 03:05:06 if you think school sucks, you ain't seen nothin yet 03:05:24 g4lt-mordant: google! 03:05:40 or just watch office space 03:05:44 vaccum cleaners suck. Lava is just not cool. 03:05:46 Can I just hope I'll be able to find a job that doesn't care when I get there? :-P 03:05:53 Er. 03:06:00 That lets me get there at a late time. 03:06:02 ihope: work from home. 03:06:14 they don't. they ust fire you if you fail to show up when they want 03:06:15 ihope: google! 03:06:18 you have got to have a lot of disciple though 03:06:32 I'm working from home this summer 03:06:35 it's a pain in the ass ;P 03:06:37 (That's how I work. Occasionally, I'll forget part of what I was going to say and say something similar but different instead.) 03:06:37 * Sgeo would go INSANE without some sort of social environment 03:06:54 Sgeo: that's why I'm always on IRC... 03:07:03 I meant face2face 03:07:10 Discipline is something I'm sort of lacking in. 03:07:17 yeah, me too. 03:07:20 Sgeo, WFH is prfetty easy, and you get one day in house at my particular job to maintain social interaction 03:07:21 * Figs spanks himself.... 03:07:27 WFH? 03:07:34 what fuck huh? 03:07:36 :P 03:07:45 working from home 03:07:46 work from home, also calld telecommuting 03:07:57 g4lt-mordant: Working is a lot like school, except school provides you with a few hours of homework on the side. 03:08:09 I'm probably quite lucky that I'm able to get good grades without hard work... 03:08:14 ...while work provides you with a lot more than a few 03:08:34 pikhq: and doesn't pay you 03:08:38 bsmntbombdood: True. 03:08:56 if people were more sensible they would say it's a waste of time 03:09:04 The bit of math class last year concerning conic sections sort of hit me hard. I'd sort of been used to already knowing everything they teach in math class. 03:09:06 g4lt-mordant: I typically end up showing up at school at about 6 and get home at about 5. 03:09:11 IT'S A WASTE OF TIME! 03:09:12 :D 03:09:16 (largely because of rides, but still. . .) 03:09:24 I wonder how I manage to learn things before they're taught in math class. 03:09:31 pikhq: beats my old schedule of showing up at 7 and getting home at 7 03:09:37 Figs: Barely. 03:09:38 pikhq, s/5/10/ and s/school/work/ and you might start getting the hint 03:09:41 and then having a couple hours of homework... 03:09:53 * Sgeo read Algebra the Easy Way, Trigonometry the Easy Way, and Calculus the Easy Way 03:10:33 I was going to bed at like 12~2 and getting up at 5... 03:10:39 well, more like 5:40 03:10:49 g4lt-mordant: You're working 16 hours a day?!? 03:11:02 pikhq, joys of mandatory overtime 03:11:22 Quit, sue, stop being the corporation's bitch. 03:11:27 the joys of time-and-a-half 03:11:29 So, math class doesn't teach me anything I didn't already know, Spanish class is way too easy, history class somehow manages to consist entirely of taking notes, and science class is... often redundant. 03:11:41 Ugh, suing. 03:11:50 Labor laws are silly. 03:11:56 yeah 03:12:22 (Yes, I'm often against having opinions, but everything has to be said by somebody.) 03:12:24 bsmntbombdood, + $5/hr incentive 03:12:35 I'll be sure to tell that to people killing themselves by working too much. 03:13:06 Should we have laws to make up for shortcomings of the human mind? 03:13:21 I guess that's what, say, banning recreational drugs is all about. 03:13:21 we already do? 03:13:47 drug laws are baaaad 03:14:14 I'm all for being able to get away from laws. 03:14:35 I already have this job on a 9 month plan, if what I fear appens in 9 months, I'll be quitting anyways, so it'll work itself out 03:14:45 Assuming the world consists only of the United States, federal laws are often... yes, baaaad. 03:15:14 Obviously, though, there are, in fact, countries other than the United States. 03:15:25 (Is my comma density high enough yet?) 03:16:07 I was working on a bot for another channel, and instead of outputting a list of nicks sensibly 03:16:17 It would go like "D, e, m, o, b, o, t" 03:16:32 * pikhq would like to congratulate the US on going back to the 1800's in terms of labor practices. 03:18:49 Have I said yet that I'm waiting for the school district density to increase a bit? 03:19:14 pikhq, thank India and Mexico for that. companies that had tolerable policies outsourced to india 03:19:36 Maybe you should move to India. 03:20:08 And it's not like we can just treat people in India worse than people in the US, not that they necessarily do. 03:20:28 If they don't, I don't need to know that. 03:21:20 ihope, apparntly in my job, if a customer complains twice within the same call about their accent, it's a firing, no warning 03:21:45 * pikhq just knows that people such as g4lt-mordant are getting screwed hard by 1800's labor laws 03:23:11 I'm thinking that the problem is that people don't have enough people that want to hire them. 03:23:38 I don't have a mailbox full of job offers. Then again, I'm not supposed to, seeing as how I'm still in high school. 03:24:01 I don't have a mailbox full of letters from other high schools, either. 03:24:58 Then again, I understand that high schools aren't very aggressive about these things. 03:25:11 Particularly not *public* high schools. ;) 03:25:16 Indeed. 03:26:01 * bsmntbombdood is in an alternative sort of high school program this year 03:26:10 I take it the government doesn't just say "for every satisfactory student-year, we'll give you this much money" and let school districts do whatever they want otherwise. 03:26:17 Alternative sort of high school program? 03:26:42 i get to do most of my work independently 03:26:49 i'm only in 2 classroom classes 03:27:02 Interesting. 03:27:10 and one of them is hardly a class 03:27:54 and then 2 online classes and 2 independent studies 03:28:40 Ooh, online classes! 03:28:51 Does the US have any online school districts? 03:30:10 completly online? definately not 03:30:17 How online do they get? 03:31:06 if i wanted to, i could take all my classes online, assuming they were offered 03:32:39 someone thought I was india 03:32:48 even though I was in the US 03:33:01 and have no accent 03:33:49 indian accents rock 03:34:35 I don't really know what sort of accent I have 03:34:38 but it isn't indian :P 03:35:33 * Figs moves too damned much 03:37:15 I think I would be much more motivated to go to bed if I knew I'd be able to fall asleep. 03:37:57 heh, bed motivation 03:38:27 read the texbook! 03:39:17 ihope: you'll be more motivated to go to bed when you're EXHAUSTED like I usually am after being up for 30 hours... 03:39:27 however 03:39:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:39:31 That too. 03:39:32 Hi GreaseMonkey 03:39:39 you won't be able to do anything for like 2 days after that 03:39:47 'lo 03:39:53 it's da greasy-moneky-man! allo. 03:40:08 Anything else I need to do with PSOX? 03:41:56 * Sgeo watches the chat wither away and die.. 03:41:57 oops.. 03:43:38 *dies* 03:43:41 *potato* 03:48:41 Comments on http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-new-cat.b ? 03:50:58 Anyone? 03:51:13 ??? 03:51:14 pikhq, Figs, ihope, GreaseMonkey? 03:51:26 comments on the example PSOX application? 03:51:26 just a mo 03:51:31 I don't understand it 03:51:31 :P 03:51:34 psox no 03:51:40 Ne ideo. 03:51:50 Figs, http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt 03:52:18 what is it supposed to *do*? 03:52:37 PSOX, or the example? 03:52:46 wtf is PSOX? 03:52:57 the example 03:53:05 It's a cat program 03:53:09 ah 03:53:13 takes input and copies it to output 03:53:37 PSOX is an API for languages like Brainf*** to access files and do networking stuff etc.. 03:53:53 ok 03:53:59 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to Dave2se. 03:54:24 -!- Dave2se has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 03:55:29 "Members of the sect believe that to reach eternal salvation, men are supposed to have at least three wives." 03:55:30 wtf 03:55:35 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/us/09polygamy.html?ex=1346990400&en=05ce6c8a4355ddff&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss 03:56:25 lol 03:58:24 Figs, mormons? 03:59:43 A branch thereof, yes. 03:59:53 s/wifes/lays/ 04:00:26 figures 04:01:50 i saw a mormon once 04:02:08 she was wearing tight pants with "MOR MON" wrote across her ass 04:02:55 yeah, in that respect they have one thing good on scientologists 04:03:38 Mormons, like any other religion, have their complete and utter nutcases. 04:03:41 Question: Is PSOX ready for 1.0? 04:03:42 google has become evil 04:03:47 they want to put up video ads 04:03:48 Scientology is composed *of* the nutcases. :p 04:03:48 Figs, eh? 04:03:50 oh 04:03:50 according to wired 04:04:20 http://blog.wired.com/business/2007/09/google-discusse.html?cid=82080045 04:04:20 pikhq, live in SE Idaho or utah for a while, you'll realize that mormons alre all nutcase as well 04:05:02 g4lt-mordant: Perhaps the ones in Utah are nutcases. 04:05:29 (admittedly, merely judging from their theology, it does seem a tiny bit nutsy) 04:05:32 Bye 04:05:37 My dad's being an a**hole 04:05:44 bye 04:05:46 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 04:08:40 -!- Figs has changed nick to Figs_. 04:09:00 -!- Figs_ has changed nick to Figs. 04:54:20 -!- cmeme has quit (Excess Flood). 04:56:11 -!- cmeme has joined. 05:04:18 -!- g4lt-mordant has changed nick to g4lt-sb100. 05:05:18 You named in honor of Strong Bad's 100th email? 05:05:48 he got 100? 05:05:54 he should see my gmail inbox... 05:06:01 686 at present 05:07:04 He's answered 175 by now. 05:08:27 that sounds more accurate 05:23:39 sun blade 100, BTW 05:24:05 but hey, why think or anything? 05:24:22 sun blade? 05:25:07 I don't do Suns, but I'm a Homestar Runner addict. ;) 05:27:44 What's a g4lt, though? 05:27:50 Greater for less than? 05:27:53 Good question? 05:28:34 galt? 05:29:08 I can't believe that conversationh has degenereated to my fucking nickname 05:29:08 What's a galt? 05:30:01 g4lt-sb100: I guess we're just out of topics? 05:30:08 http://www.scientific.org/articles/JFS%20excerpt.htm <-- we could talk about this instead 05:30:58 * ihope ponders making the xkcd 90 joke 05:31:41 like the ass switching? 05:31:46 fucking-jacket? :P 05:31:51 sweet ass-car? :P 05:32:45 Yes, fucking nickname. 05:32:47 "False positives can also arise due to misinterpretation of test results. One such error led to the false conviction of Timothy Durham (14, 17) . In 1993 a Tulsa Oklahoma jury convicted Durham of the rape of an 11-year-old girl. He was sentenced to 3000 years in prison." 05:33:05 I don't think he'll actually serve that. 05:33:52 "In 1993 a Tulsa Oklahoma jury convicted Durham of the rape of an 11-year-old girl. He was sentenced to 3000 years in prison. ... Durham presented eleven witnesses who placed him in another state at the time of the crime, but the jury rejected his alibi defense." 05:33:57 yeah 05:34:03 I didn't see your quote :P 05:34:24 he was released in 1997 05:34:27 read down 05:34:29 Just invite immortality. 05:34:41 So he only served a 750th of his sentence? 05:34:53 !calc 4/3000 05:34:56 Huh? 05:34:59 :p 05:35:19 I want to only have to serve a 750th of any jail sentences I get... 05:35:42 * Figs gives you a sentance of 750 lifetimes... 05:35:49 D'oh. 05:35:51 you can serve 1/750 of it 05:35:53 :D 05:35:59 I wonder what the longest sentence anybody's ever gotten was. 05:36:16 ihope: Only 1 gives you a chance of release with good behavior, IIRC. 05:36:35 multipe lifetimes without parole. :P 05:36:58 Is a sentence of 3000 years actually different from a double life sentence? 05:37:07 In practice, no. 05:37:29 (as far as I know) 05:38:24 I wonder if anybody's ever been sentenced past the end of the universe. 05:38:47 Chuck Norris might have served a double one of those. :-P 05:39:04 d'oh 05:39:24 I don't know but people have gotten 3+ lifetimes, I think 05:39:43 (though once you get a lifetime without parole, what's the point of having more of them?) 05:39:53 Yeah... 05:40:49 http://thelongestlistofthelongeststuffatthelongestdomainnameatlonglast.com/long45.html 05:41:00 "Dudley Wayne Kyzer was jailed for 10,000 years by a court in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, in 1981 for murdering his wife." http://www.thatsweird.net/history5.shtml 05:41:01 By that point, you can only get worse with a death sentence. 05:41:23 yeah 05:41:51 "In 1994 Oklahoma rapist Darron Bennalford Anderson received a 2,200-year jail sentence. When he appealed and won a new trial, he was convicted again and resentenced to more than 90 additional centuries behind bars - including 4,000 years each for rape and sodomy, 1,750 years for kidnapping, 1,000 years for burglary and robbery, and 500 years for grand larceny." http://www.thatsweird.net/history5. 05:41:53 shtml 05:42:20 Seems a bit excessive. 05:42:32 the requested sentace against Gabtriel march grandos was 384,912 05:42:41 but he only got 7,109 05:42:52 "He was charged with 42,768 instances of failing to deliver letters. I think I know how we got the term 'Postal' now." 05:43:09 Also, wouldn't the *additional sentencing upon appeal* be a matter of double jeapordy? 05:43:33 Surely, an appeal by the defendant would either strike down a sentence or uphold it? 05:43:39 (obviously not) 05:44:29 right, the new trail part is what did it. he got a neew trial, they found him guiltier if you will 05:44:41 I know. 05:44:54 And that's dual jeapordy, I feel. 05:46:19 and you feel something that isn't the case. if he gets a new trail, he gets a new trial, it's as if the other one never existed 05:46:25 http://blogs.cnet.com/8301-13505_1-9773662-16.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=TheOpenRoad <--- BWAHAHAHAHAHA 05:46:37 Microsoft campaign against itself :P 05:46:46 Welcome to the definition of dual jeapordy. . . 05:48:45 first thing, it's DOUBLE jeopardy, if you're going to mindlessly parade around something, at lest get the name right. second, double jeopardy means you cannot bee tried twice for the same crime, therefore accourding to your definition, the second trial should have never been granted. the defendant waived that right to get the trial in the first place 05:49:06 My apologies. 05:49:45 I'm arguing what I think should have happened, not what did happen. Clearly, he did get the second trial, and got screwed for it. 05:50:07 and the only person he has to blame is himself, since he asked for it 05:50:10 Rather than just having the additional trial determine if the sentence should be brought down. 05:50:42 (of course, if new evidence came up and he got convicted of completely new things, then that's a completely different issue) 05:51:18 well, there's the problem, innit? he asked for a new trial, he got one, it turned out worse. sucks tobe him 05:53:06 wow, digg sucks 05:53:22 I click on a link... site's totally dead 05:53:26 go back, 05:53:33 and now the number of diggs has jumped by 30 05:53:33 claimng double jeopardy in his case is wrong, as HE asked for the second trial 05:53:38 wtf?!?! 05:53:56 Figs, it took you this long to find out? I use SU 05:54:07 I use reddit 05:54:13 but occasionally I still look on digg 05:54:46 I used to use SU, but they changed something in the way their toolbar works, and it stopped working right for me 05:54:51 I don't remember what exactly 05:55:15 I think it was just too large and I was loosing screen space 05:55:23 (because of something they added) 05:58:13 *sigh* 05:58:34 you know you've had too much of "web 2.0" when you start looking for the "reply" button on bash quotes >.< 06:08:00 go to bed or not go to bed? 06:09:00 !bf <. 06:09:11 !ps 06:09:14 1 Figs: ps 06:09:35 !rand 06:09:38 Huh? 06:10:12 oooh, right a prng in brainfuck! 06:14:54 prng? 06:15:04 oh 06:15:14 pseudo random number generator :P 06:15:20 http://www.bordergatewayprotocol.net/jon/media/bush/ 06:20:12 go to bed A.) Now B.) After watching a movie 06:21:16 (getupearly? now : later)(); 06:21:39 provided that now, later are function pointers, and getupearly equates to a boolean 06:21:43 getupearly is not boolean 06:21:58 getuptime is more appropriate 06:22:22 (CanSleepEnough(getuptime) ? now : later)(); 06:22:30 getuptime == 10am 06:22:35 time()? 06:22:41 23:22 06:23:38 (timediff(curr_time+length_of_movie,getuptime)>=8.5 ? now : later)(); 06:23:52 hmm 06:24:47 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:25:05 that would be later 06:25:08 but it's cold in here :( 06:28:57 (!canthinkforself() ? googlelucky("potato").imagesearch().firstpage.contains(nudity) ? gotobed : stayup)(); 06:29:11 nudity of what 06:29:11 s/?/&& 06:29:20 potatoes 06:34:54 aaag 06:35:05 i accidently downloaded the french version :( 06:35:46 of potato nudity? 06:36:02 nudity knows no language bounds... even potato nudity! 06:49:59 -!- importantshock has quit (Connection timed out). 06:59:31 -!- viciousparrots has joined. 07:00:39 Could someone please add 37 an 47 and tell me the answer? 07:02:08 what base? 07:02:09 :P 07:02:21 base 10 07:02:43 84? 07:02:52 am I missing some trick here? 07:03:00 No, not really 07:03:27 I don't feel like pulling up my calculator ;) 07:03:30 bah :P 07:03:39 I have a calculator in my command prompt :) 07:21:35 -!- Figs has left (?). 07:26:39 -!- viciousparrots has quit. 07:58:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Man who stand in frond of car is tired. Man who stand behind car is exhausted."). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:15:09 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:15:34 -!- puzzlet has joined. 08:48:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:03:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 12:13:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:23:17 -!- jix has joined. 12:36:53 -!- feesh has joined. 12:49:32 -!- Tritonio has joined. 12:59:20 -!- ehird` has joined. 13:00:24 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:10:26 (ihope) The bit of math class last year concerning conic sections sort of hit me hard. I'd sort of been used to already knowing everything they teach in math class. <<< i'm last year @ high school, and learning about the basics of integration... 13:10:31 never heard "conic section" 13:19:05 -!- ehird` has quit. 13:21:21 that one really needs a calculator :P 13:39:48 -!- ehird` has joined. 13:42:02 anyone alive? 13:48:42 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:53:10 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:04:33 i see nobod yis alive =) 14:06:58 i'm kinda 14:07:10 but i'm too tired to think :< 14:07:31 try simple SVO sentences and i may catch some of them. 14:09:15 and there is always good ol' feesh 14:09:52 feesh? i now know 4 fishy nicks. 14:09:58 oh, 5 14:10:23 oklopol: maybe hard for me ;p 14:10:29 feesh has nothing to do with fish 14:10:35 it's actually more abouce feces 14:11:13 fish feces 14:11:51 feesh is pretty fishy, no matter where it's derived :) 14:12:31 fair does I guess :p 14:13:36 so anyway 14:13:42 who is more awake than SVO-sentence level ;) 14:19:30 -!- ihope has joined. 14:24:24 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:25:23 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:50:55 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:51:07 -!- jix has joined. 15:16:46 -!- ihope_ has joined. 15:34:35 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:02:32 anyone awake? 16:12:50 yes 16:17:47 yay 16:17:57 hmm 16:18:18 * ehird` realises he uses #esoteric for a lot of "here's a technology-related idea, let's discuss it" insetad of "here's an esoteric-technology-related idea, let's discuss it" 16:18:23 maybe i should stop that ;p 16:18:52 yes 16:18:55 it's getting quite annoying now 16:20:29 :/ 16:42:36 -!- QS_E has joined. 16:42:43 -!- QS_E has quit (Client Quit). 17:24:54 i'm much more awake now 17:25:06 yay 17:25:06 3 hours of sleep does that sometimes 17:25:12 now swedish! :) 17:25:15 -> 17:25:23 so no "yay" :< 17:25:27 :p 17:25:36 oh well 17:26:02 -!- feesh has quit ("bbiab dinner"). 17:35:24 -!- Grognor has joined. 17:35:32 -!- Grognor has left (?). 17:43:35 -!- ihope__ has joined. 17:43:39 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope. 18:01:03 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:03:48 =) 18:08:45 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:23:44 -!- fizzie has joined. 18:26:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 18:53:40 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:55:05 -!- nooga has joined. 18:55:10 hello hello 18:55:15 :> 18:56:11 YO 18:57:37 have you seen TECO ? :D 18:59:00 NO 19:00:55 http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/T/TECO.html example 19:01:06 [1 J^P$L$$ 19:01:07 J <.-Z; .,(S,$ -D .)FX1 @F^B $K :L I $ G1 L>$$ 19:01:48 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_Editor_and_Corrector generally 19:02:17 TECO 19:03:04 this is really eso 19:03:17 and it was built to be usable editor, lol 19:03:54 nice, but you can get much more concise out of that much obscurity 19:04:05 (oklotalk!) 19:04:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_Editor_and_Corrector#Example_3 19:04:30 just check that out 19:04:42 looks like white noise mapped to ascii 19:04:54 ;] 19:05:15 nice 19:06:02 #F#@!1[A]~$ 19:08:54 not to mention it's quite ancient 19:09:01 TIABRA = TIABRA is a backronymed recursive acronym 19:17:25 BIAB = BIAB is a backronym ;) 19:19:13 -!- RodgerTheGreat has left (?). 19:47:34 Recursive acronyms like RALRAA aren't arbitrary. 19:50:34 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:56:48 -!- MichaelRaskin_ has joined. 19:57:25 -!- MichaelRaskin_ has left (?). 19:57:44 -!- Tritonio has quit ("Bye..."). 20:08:28 ihope hopes other people eat 20:08:40 Sometimes recursive acronyms like SRALSTSTCUW take some thinking to come up with. 20:09:08 script it 20:09:13 Well, WWDTMETCUW didn't take much effort to come up with. 20:09:30 You just have to calculate them lazily. 20:09:51 Well, (Well, WWDTMETCUW didn't take much effort to come up with.) didn't take much effort to come up with. 20:10:05 To be honest, random acronyms like TBHRALTSARAA sometimes aren't random at all. 20:10:05 Well, (Well, (Well, WWDTMETCUW didn't take much effort to come up with.) didn't take much effort to come up with.) didn't take much effort to come up with. 20:10:30 i hope ihiitlaitt is the last acronym in this thread... 20:11:03 No, I think the recursive acronyms (like NITTRALNWNS) will never stop. 20:11:40 NIARA is a recursive acronym 20:11:51 So is SIS. 20:11:58 bsmntbombdood: Already taken actually, but as TIARA 20:12:00 SIS is short. 20:12:25 Recursive RA. 20:12:38 y f = f (y f) 20:12:53 GIARA isn't a recursive acronym. 20:13:02 It stands for "GPL isn't a recursive acronym". 20:13:02 (ehird`) Recursive RA. <<< wrong 20:13:08 oklopol: no 20:13:10 oklopol: oh, yes 20:13:16 bsmntbombdood: you can hardly call that an acronym. 20:13:51 y f = f (\x -> y f x) 20:13:52 Another - AARR!! - recursive rendition? 20:14:01 yay, call by value 20:14:09 o 20:14:13 ^ acronym 20:14:22 Another - aargh! - recursive geometrical haystack? 20:14:25 ^ i might use that 20:15:03 Recursive acronyms, like RALRAF, are fun. 20:15:04 oklopol kicks lazy oklopol's penis or leg 20:15:26 bsmntbombdood says... no, i can't be arsed 20:15:28 ok fine 20:15:30 bsmntbombdood is a stick in my burrow 20:15:51 biasimb? 20:16:09 sure! 20:16:15 no, random words 20:16:16 bsmntbombdood says "Mountain? No! To bsmntbombdood only must burrow. Deadly ogling owls die." 20:16:45 lol! 20:17:21 ehird hates insanely rounded dragons 20:17:43 pikhq is kicking high quaters. 20:18:09 being sick may never tire bsmntbombdood, or maybe being dense opens other doors 20:18:11 SimonRC is moving only north, recursively - cool! 20:18:30 i really tried to make sense, but i just lack too much vocabulary :< 20:18:44 oerjan eats randy jam and neverland 20:19:25 EgoBot goes on, building offtopic translations. 20:19:30 ^ that one's actually true 20:19:49 cmeme mostly eats maggots - eww 20:19:51 clog logs our goings-on 20:19:59 oh that one's good 20:20:24 GregorR reads empowering goings-on, or readily replies. 20:20:56 ololobot lives only literally, overtly banning over terrain. 20:22:09 HIRD of Unix-Replacing Daemons 20:22:17 HURD of Interfaces Representing Depth 20:22:24 That pair's a weird one. 20:22:30 ehird of unix-replacing daemons 20:22:39 empowering ehird of interfaces representing depth 20:23:43 HIRD of Unix-Replacing Daemons of Interfaces Representing Depth 20:23:55 HURD of Interfaces Representing Depth of Unix-Replacing Daemons of Interfaces Representing Depth 20:24:06 HIRD of Unix-Replacing Daemons of Interfaces Representing Depth of Unix-Replacing Daemons of Interfaces Representing Depth 20:24:20 HURD of Interfaces Representing Depth of Unix-Replacing Daemons of Interfaces Representing Depth of Unix-Replacing Daemons of Interfaces Representing Depth 20:24:28 AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE 20:25:10 Absolutely, I enter elephants' egregious earth-eating eruditely . . . 20:25:26 thats not recursive 20:25:42 AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, I enter elephants' egregious earth-eating eruditely . . . 20:25:52 collaborative project idea: alphabet poem 20:25:53 26 lines 20:25:56 on first line, 20:25:59 all words start with A 20:26:00 second, B 20:26:01 etc 20:26:28 hmm... Actually, alliteration angers all? :p 20:26:30 lol 20:26:45 it's really hard to design something like TECO 20:26:50 nooga only "OK"s graphically, also. 20:27:55 ihope hinders operatic, paleontological expeditions? 20:29:22 this alphabet poem thing is actually pretty easy 20:29:29 here's two lines: Actually, alliteration angers all/But - bemusingly - big blasts bother 20:29:29 :P 20:29:32 no plot, hooray 20:29:53 Can cats categorize cations? 20:30:05 Oops, all starting with ca(t). 20:31:15 Do dastardly doodles ? 20:31:46 Evidently everything esoteric enters egregiousness 20:32:15 (recursive, too :) ) 20:32:36 we need something for 20:33:07 denotate diversions? 20:33:12 ok 20:34:11 Four fiddle-playing fathers? XD 20:37:30 Four fiddle-playing fathers fake fornication 20:38:19 Good - great gullible ghouls. 20:38:38 H must involve H2S04 ;p 20:41:03 someone do h 20:41:20 H2S04 hardly helps health 20:42:27 ehird`: e? 20:42:48 nooga: Evidently everything esoteric enters egregiousness. 20:43:13 I imitate Incans, 20:43:13 Just jolly, Jeremiah. 20:43:17 i think i should have said "evolves" instead of "enters" :( 20:43:37 -!- tombom has joined. 20:44:59 we need one for esoteric 20:45:10 where 20:46:03 bsmntbombdood: ? 20:46:06 i guess i'm tired or drunken, or i just don't get what are you talking about now :D 20:46:12 an acronym 20:46:46 Eh, so only teabags esoteric really in cool. 20:46:47 hard 20:46:48 :P 20:46:55 that one fails 20:49:59 “yes 20:51:08 Kraken keys, um... 20:51:19 !bf 20:51:21 Krakens're key. :-P 20:51:22 !bff 20:51:25 Huh? 20:51:26 !bfff 20:51:29 Huh? 20:51:30 !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 20:51:33 ! 20:51:41 !~bff~ 20:51:43 Huh? 20:51:50 !sadol !"1! 20:51:52 !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++. 20:51:53 ! 20:51:55 M^ 20:52:13 !sadol !"1!sadol works? 20:52:15 BDSM: Parsing: Unexpected end of file (index: 16, row: 1, col: 17) 20:52:17 ouch 20:52:20 yeah :d 20:52:22 Esoteric seems otherwise to easily run in circles 20:52:26 !sadol !"1! 20:52:29 ! 20:52:31 what is sadol 20:52:34 !sadol 20:52:39 !help sadol 20:52:41 To use an interpreter: Note: can be the actual program, an http:// URL, or a file:// URL which refers to my pseudofilesystem. 20:53:34 ehird`: check the wiki 20:54:12 !sadol !",213Hello, world! 20:54:15 Hello, world! 20:54:18 Yay! 20:54:29 And what a crazy string literal ",213Hello, world! is. 20:55:30 At least it doesn't need escapes. 20:56:37 hmm 20:56:41 i think i can make the notation crazier 20:56:59 let's see, ( to push a call 20:57:47 and ~ is "pop if the function has been given enough arguments, otherwise change X into (X )" (:a3 20:57:47 !sadol (7:C",228!R!C!"7822,"R:!R!"9822,"C:7(:R",228(7:C",2289"!R!:R",2287"!C!RR!C!"7822,"R:!R!"9822,"C:7( 20:57:49 BDSM: Parsing: Unexpected end of file (index: 98, row: 1, col: 99) 20:57:54 so no ( 20:58:04 it starts off as () 20:58:19 hmm 20:58:25 let's see 20:58:38 a~bc~ 20:58:41 hmm 20:58:43 don't like that 20:58:45 how about 20:58:48 it changes into ( X) 20:58:57 bc~a~ 20:58:59 i like that 20:59:09 it's (a (b c)) 20:59:30 hmm 20:59:51 rld~wo~hello 20:59:56 that's (hello (wo) rld) 21:00:36 rld~wo~~lo~he~~~wo 21:00:41 that's (((he) lo) (wo) rld) 21:00:50 crazy eh? :) 21:01:07 hm 21:01:10 that should be 21:01:17 hmm 21:02:08 beginning = () and ~ = "if list has sufficient arguments, pop from list. otherwise, change list X into ( X)" is enough to express any sexpr right? 21:08:24 !sadol (4:C",216!"9(4:C",216!C!C!"9(4:C",216!C!C 21:08:27 (4:C",216!"9(4:C",216!C!C!"9(4:C",216!C!C 21:09:45 anyone? 21:10:34 hmm 21:10:38 @ = change to end of list 21:12:31 hmm 21:14:49 world;hello~!@2 = (! (hello world) 2) 21:15:02 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/private/et5hd0myxvbjmzujdydf0w 21:15:07 ^ rules 21:15:11 that's a damn esoteric program format ;) 21:16:08 im pretty sure that can handle all lists 21:19:53 Hm 21:19:58 I'm trying to represent (a b (c d) e f (g h (i j)) k) in it 21:20:00 but i can't seem to 21:22:27 -!- ihope__ has joined. 21:22:42 -!- tombom has quit. 21:34:38 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 21:37:04 * SimonRC thinks that "clog logs our garbage" works better 21:38:23 oh, and http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Alliteration 21:38:48 "Alliteration articulates an artistic and alacritous approach aimed at annotating and arranging alphabetic accoutrements as alarmingly affective alignments." etc 21:39:41 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out). 21:40:32 i insist it is infinitely improved if it includes initialism in its index 21:40:46 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 21:41:01 and i do so without even looking at the page 21:52:50 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:04:06 yawn 22:05:33 Affective? 22:05:46 Why is that in my spellchecker's dictionary? 22:06:07 because its a word 22:06:12 Oh. 22:06:37 random software musing, kinda esoteric: people make games in a day, but what about 1-hour games? you find a team, and have an hour to design and implement a game xD 22:08:13 * ihope__ ponders the relation between continuation-passing style and stack-based postfix notation 22:08:42 Stack-based postfix notation as in "2 3 +" means "push 2; push 3; pop twice, add, and push". 22:08:52 ehird`: easy, you just need 12 times as many people working on it 22:09:32 And, I guess, whether CPS can turn that into "+ 2 3 output". 22:09:45 SimonRC: heh 22:09:54 SimonRC: seriously, people do 1-day games that are quite elaborate 22:10:01 SimonRC: and 7-day games that seem like they took months 22:10:16 SimonRC: a good game could probably be made by 3-4 people in an hour 22:10:25 Go is all you need! Maybe. 22:12:52 * SimonRC wonders if Go contains an NP-complete problem. 22:13:24 P-space complete, actually 22:13:58 go contains /everything/ 22:13:59 (which is presumably even harder) 22:14:26 i totally don't get go 22:14:34 its like they tried to create an incomprehensible game 22:14:47 maybe they /were/ trying to create a model of computation, though, like they did 22:14:50 W 22:14:51 T 22:14:51 F 22:14:58 Woogles 22:14:59 Ten 22:15:01 Fidle 22:15:03 *fiddle 22:15:11 Go is a trivial game 22:15:16 much simpler than chess 22:15:21 i get chess 22:15:23 i don't get go 22:15:42 you put down pieces and the are catured if surrounded 22:15:47 how hard is that? 22:16:00 its not that simple.. 22:16:40 LOGSPACE <= NLOGSPACE <= PTIME <= NPTIME <= PSPACE, NLOGSPACE != PSPACE and all other between unknown 22:17:03 oerjan: yes 22:17:21 ehird`: really? I never noticed in all my time playing. 22:17:44 there is a little to argue about in the claiming of territory, but that's about it 22:17:45 well, from the rules i've seen - even the "simple" versions - its a lot more complex than that 22:17:55 point me to some 22:18:09 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_Go? 22:19:59 SimonRC: Go may have simple rules (it's a bit more complex than you make it out to be, though), but its strategy is anything but. 22:20:12 It's very much an emergent game. 22:20:51 I would be useless at Go even if I grokked the rules I suspect 22:21:07 nah, it just takes practice 22:21:12 eh 22:21:21 I'm decent at chess, and barely even know how to *play* Go. 22:21:25 lots and lots of practice 22:21:38 i'm lame at all board games 22:21:39 ;) 22:21:45 the subtlties of Go are no worse than those of chess 22:22:08 they tend to be fairly obvious, or at least the type of thing that you forget to mention because they are obvious 22:22:22 like, infinite loops are bad, hence the Ko rule 22:22:37 and you have to stop at some point, hence passing and seki 22:22:53 i like infinite loops 22:22:59 you're infiniteloopist 22:23:33 and suicide is quite easy to remember as well 22:24:35 to learn the lot, you just need a club 22:25:38 you get taught the basic concepts at first, then lose dozens of games in stupid ways to learn the basic stratergy, while being taught the subtlties as they become necessary in your games 22:26:18 BTW, the amount of practice is sfficient that you need a real passion for it if you are going to get high up 22:26:29 and you need to be a nutter 22:28:01 "and suicide is quite easy to remember as well" you only need to know it once 22:28:04 badumtish 22:37:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 23:06:03 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:52:23 -!- ehird` has quit. 23:59:41 actually it is spelt "*rimshot*" 2007-09-10: 00:01:01 Badumtish is? 00:02:42 yes 00:13:08 english spelling is _hard_ 00:14:42 heh 00:15:36 actually, "rimshot" might be horrible jargon abuse 00:16:40 it is a little known fact that 97% of all english words started out as horrible jargon abuse 00:16:40 ah, yes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_%28percussion%29 00:28:12 It's a well-known fact that 97% of statistics are made up on the spot. 00:28:31 that too. 00:30:02 although the equality of the two numbers have seen surprisingly little investigation, being mentioned in only 3% of the articles on the subject. 00:30:10 *has 00:35:23 Only 3% of the articles on it have actually mentioned it? 00:35:45 i said it was surprising. 00:36:31 Indeed. 00:38:52 * SimonRC reports SG-1 to the APS. 00:40:27 http://www.aps.com/ 00:41:00 * oerjan reports SimonRC to the acronym police 00:41:04 no, http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/ 00:42:00 they perform mass enslavement with words like "zat'nik'tel" and "Goa'uld" 00:42:27 i see. you wouldn't mind coming over to norway and cleaning up those apostrophes that have blown over the north sea? 00:42:39 you can just about get away with in some of the cases, as sme of the languages have glottal stops, which are transliterated as ' 00:42:57 norwegian has apostrophes? 00:43:52 it's infected by english. there is probably a norwegian apostrophe extermination society somewhere... 00:44:35 far too often people put an apostrophe before a genitive s 00:45:23 * SimonRC likes http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif (and http://angryflower.com/destro.html) 00:45:30 strictly speaking it is sometimes correct to put an apostrophe after an s, similar to english plural genitives 00:51:45 -!- calamari has joined. 00:57:38 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 01:49:06 * SimonRC goes to bed 01:49:24 * bsmntbombdood is drained 02:15:09 http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/group_small.jpg // yay! 02:16:27 bsmntbombdood: more pictures of you where we can't actually see you? 02:16:35 of course! 02:17:00 i take abstract pictures of myself because i'm uncomfortable with my appearance! 02:18:25 i have one where you can see my ass very clearly 02:18:35 is that better? 02:18:50 Which sense of "ass" is that? 02:19:01 If it's your donkey, then no, not really. 02:19:27 i don't have a donkey 02:22:54 jean covered and wet gluteuses 02:25:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:28:43 -!- GreaseMonkey has changed nick to N0BODY. 02:34:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:12:19 -!- ihope___ has joined. 03:12:24 -!- ihope___ has changed nick to ihope. 03:29:05 -!- ihope__ has quit (Connection timed out). 04:12:51 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 04:34:42 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:47:22 -!- nodos has joined. 04:48:54 does esoteric programming languages have commercial use? 04:49:18 hahahahahahaaaa 04:49:34 :D 04:49:48 I expected that :P 04:51:46 embedded systems? 04:51:58 probably not, anyway... 04:56:13 -!- N0BODY has changed nick to GreaseMonkey. 04:56:39 -!- nodos has changed nick to bfed. 04:59:04 -!- bfed has changed nick to nodos. 05:00:24 -!- calamari has joined. 05:00:42 Probably not. 05:02:37 -!- calamari has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:03:50 -!- calamari has joined. 05:10:52 pikhq: think so 05:13:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 05:31:15 -!- nodos has quit ("Leaving."). 06:27:29 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:04:12 bsmntbombdood: http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/foo.jpg this looks nice 09:05:17 http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/pic_3.jpg << whish one is you? 09:05:20 which* 09:14:40 -!- RedDak has joined. 09:16:23 i recall reading go was np 09:16:41 also semidecidable on an infinite board 09:17:21 ah 09:26:37 hmm... pi calculus is trivial, methinks 09:27:18 e? 09:30:11 pi calculus seems to be nice background for another esolang :] 09:33:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:38:07 hei oerjan 09:38:18 hei nooga 09:39:25 i've just returned from norway :D 09:39:56 oklopol: no, Go is ("probably") harder than that, it's PSPACE-complete: http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/lr288/presentations/Go.pdf 09:40:49 oerjan: "ah" was "oh, oerjan cleared it up" 09:40:49 did you get to speak the language? 09:41:16 nah 09:41:53 what other calculi are there? pi and lambda were so trivial there aren't enough letters to keep me busy for long if the rest are the same :) 09:42:00 but i know some swedish instead >:D 09:42:21 aargh! 09:42:56 besides, almos all ppl in norway speak english better than me 09:43:55 that's said to be a problem learning norwegian - we switch to english if we detect you are not very good at norwegian 09:44:08 yup 09:44:40 well.. that's pretty much true for any language other than english... 09:44:47 nah :D 09:45:01 in poland, ppl look at you and don't know what to do 09:45:06 it's true for finnish, swedish and german at least 09:45:08 if you don't speak polish 09:45:11 haha :D 09:45:12 oklopol: try some typed lambda-based calculus, like System F or calculus of constructions 09:45:23 hmm... sounds nice 09:45:42 http://sigfpe.blogspot.com/2007/09/type-of-distinct-pairs.html <<< was reading this, and realized i seem to have no idea what types are... 09:46:02 ...but i understood the first paragraph! 09:47:34 ideally you also want to look at sequent calculi for logics and the Curry-Howard isomorphism with types 09:48:03 in fact i guess you need that to understand the calculus of constructions 09:48:35 * oerjan just realized he might be scaring oklopol away 09:48:38 :D 09:48:53 no no, i just don't know what to google for first... 09:49:25 there should be a list of stuff to learn somewhere, in order of complexity... 09:49:53 also, the Hindley-Milner type system used in Haskell and ML 09:50:12 (which is simpler than the other two i mentioned) 09:50:17 hmm... can you give me a link, i'll tell you if i get it :=P 09:50:18 oh 09:50:21 i'll check that out 09:50:55 although both languages add more on top 09:52:27 i'm not sure about links, try wikipedia 10:04:36 oerjan: i deciphered a sign "kast ikke soppel i natur..." i guess it means "don't throw garbage in natural env..." :D 10:04:53 without any help yay 10:05:19 yeah :) 10:05:47 "naturen" means "the nature" 10:05:49 kast is like cast and cast means almost the same as throw 10:07:45 english being what it is, i think the term is "toss" 10:09:15 http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9317/dsc00087gs0.jpg this sign is also funny 10:11:50 yeah, i have seen those signs 10:12:01 well, one of them 10:12:13 i could also decipher it! 10:12:20 ;p 10:12:29 my swedish matriculation was today though, so might be a bit bad if i couldn't 10:12:38 your what? 10:12:47 listening comprehension that is, written part is later 10:13:08 hehe, you don't like swedes i guess 10:13:08 hmm... it's the tests we had @ end of high school 10:13:11 *have 10:13:30 "exams" 10:13:35 err yes 10:14:34 nooga: i don't like swedes, or oerjan doesn't? 10:15:04 i don't care about nationality really 10:15:05 i heard, that everybody in scandinavia hates them ;-) 10:15:11 heh 10:15:20 that's quite true 10:15:29 in my experience 10:15:37 including the swedes? well it might actually make sense 10:15:45 yup :D 10:15:55 but i find them funny and quite polite 10:15:55 at least after reading Arne Anka 10:16:38 yeah they talk funny ;) 10:17:19 and they have those funny red houses 10:17:39 actually you find that in norway too 10:17:48 but you have more black ones 10:17:49 ! 10:17:52 Huh? 10:18:02 i mean in the countryside 10:18:03 my house is gray 10:18:23 i think this house is brown 10:18:34 you don't go out much, eh? 10:18:57 i don't go out to watch this house :) 10:20:39 This house is made of red bricks: http://tietokilta.fi/esittely/tttalo/img/t-talo-etukulma-lahempaa_s.jpg 10:20:46 (Not that I live here or anything.) 10:21:20 besides, in poland i can buy 0.5l vodka, one bread and smoked fish for 50nok, in norway.... maybe one bread and some butter 10:21:23 :D 10:21:41 definitely no vodka :D 10:22:09 well, maybe one small shot 10:22:20 hehe 10:22:25 what's euro/nok? 10:22:53 eur/nk! 10:23:08 er/n!! 10:23:22 Well, that's only if u=k. 10:23:25 1 eur = 3.60 pln , 1 pln = 2nok 10:23:49 oh, indeed, i failed !'s semantics. 10:23:52 :) 10:24:19 euro/nok = eurø/nøk = eur/nk. 10:24:30 eurö 10:24:47 o.O 10:25:15 oklopol: you finns call it that? 10:25:23 vowel harmony ftw 10:25:34 sorry, no :) 10:25:52 in finnish, words are rarely finnified 10:26:16 because that'd require too much work 10:26:57 i heard that finnish is almost as difficult as polish, if i was forced to learn polish again i would fail definately 10:27:05 in finnish, you also couldn't even have "eurö" 10:27:11 u and ö can't be in the same word 10:27:17 so i guess with finnish it wold be the same 10:27:26 oh 10:27:32 would* 10:27:45 it's exactly because we have vowel harmony, i missed your line 10:28:14 chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie, w strzebrzeszynie 10:28:23 i'm pretty sure polish is easy 10:28:26 does it fit your vovel harmony? 10:28:32 is that polish? 10:28:36 yeah 10:28:37 :> 10:28:41 fits well 10:28:44 It's got about three-four times as many consonants as it needs, though. 10:28:46 do you even have umlaut? 10:29:00 yeah, bad serialization there 10:29:02 we've got śćółńążź 10:29:11 but i guess you can't see them 10:29:14 sec. 10:29:21 indeed not 10:29:21 is that a polish word or jsut the list of the letters? 10:29:24 and i can see them 10:29:34 *just 10:29:34 list of letters 10:29:38 ah 10:29:40 I can see the third one there. (This work-box does latin-1 at the moment.) 10:29:53 "??ó?????" 10:30:29 æ e i a æ å 10:30:32 i've never seen that unary umlaut used in ż 10:30:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_language#Orthography 10:30:47 The 'slashed-l' looks funny. 10:30:50 look here 10:31:02 (local dialect, means "i'm in 'A', too") 10:31:10 Already opened a more reasonable terminal. 10:31:32 "scolnazz" sounds like a word. 10:31:49 oerjan: norwegian, that is? 10:31:59 i though it was "school nights" :D 10:32:09 yes 10:32:11 lol 10:32:11 no 10:33:12 the most funny thing is that in polish we've got many rules, which have something about 2000 exceptions 10:33:22 so are theese rures really? :D 10:33:30 rules* 10:33:38 200* 10:33:43 lol, stupid kbd 10:34:28 or many ways to say the same like: gdzie żeÅ› ty byÅ‚, gdzie ty byÅ‚eÅ›, gdzieÅ› ty byÅ‚ 10:34:43 it means exactly the same 10:35:01 or gdzie żeÅ› byÅ‚, gdzie byÅ‚eÅ› 10:35:27 there's no way to convince me it's not trivial, sorry :< 10:35:28 = where were you (to man) 10:35:56 because you're finn 10:35:59 :P 10:36:01 i'll learn it some beautiful day 10:36:18 wow, english wikipedia passed two million articles 10:36:22 is polish anyway related to finnish? 10:36:35 no 10:36:41 thought so 10:36:42 polish is indo-european 10:36:43 nop 10:36:59 so it's not "because you're finn", it's "but you're wrong" 10:37:05 but you have complex grammar 10:37:13 like english, norwegian and swedish 10:37:18 well yeah, and thus have a bigger brain, true 10:37:45 (it's huge) 10:37:59 so you're used to those constructions like shit-tons of cases, genres and other thingys 10:39:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russenorsk LOL! 10:39:20 we don't have genre! 10:39:28 that's my one weakness :| 10:40:39 oh nooo 10:40:40 "gender" 10:40:49 i must go out and buy some food 10:41:48 There's just 15 noun cases, is that really a lot? 10:42:05 seen more? 10:42:21 16? 10:43:53 Well, no. But not all of them are even commonly used. 10:44:41 multiply that 15 by 3 genres and 3 times and 6 person and 2 sides and add some exceptions 10:45:45 it's much easier with agglutination. just heap on more suffixes! 10:46:41 Which is what we mostly do. 10:47:07 i don't think polish does. 10:47:08 arrgh, because you're finns 10:48:30 Agglutinativeness makes word-based speech recognition language models work really crappily, though, since you can't get a reasonably sized lexicon. 10:48:39 oerjan: yeah, but try to use a dictionary 10:48:45 yeah 10:50:44 but my dog undestands "iść" = to go, "idziemy" = we go, "pójdziemy" = we will go and "pójdzieszyou wi" ll go, the same with wyjść, wyjdziesz, wyjdziemy (which means generally to go out) 10:50:55 pójdziesz = you'll go 10:52:57 brb, i need pójść to the shop ;) 10:54:15 And does the dog understand the differences there? 10:54:28 i guess no 10:54:40 but it understands what will happen :D 10:54:47 after saying one of those 11:04:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Man who stand in frond of car is tired. Man who stand behind car is exhausted."). 11:10:13 Word-splitted the irclogs of one Finnish-speaking channel (252856 lines; one year) to see if our words actually get to be so long everyone says they do. The longest real word there was "epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyydelläänsäkäänkinköhän" (52 characters), but I think that was just an example of a long word. 11:16:29 yeah 11:16:38 finnish words are long ;p 11:16:49 sou you don't talk too much 11:17:22 hmm... i doubt "kään" and "kin" can be in the same word, and i remember that without "kin" 11:17:49 i don't understand it with "kin" 11:18:07 The other long words seem to be boring compound words. 11:18:34 i've heard "epäkumarreksituteskentulaisehkollaismaisekkuudellisentelemättömyydellänsäkäänköhän" 11:18:42 but i can't really find the base word there... 11:18:53 that's something i memorized when i was little 11:18:59 hmm 11:19:23 sorry, epäkumarreksituteskenteleentovaisehkollaismaisekkuudellisentelemättömyydellänsäkäänköhän 11:19:53 most of it seems coherent, but the beginning doesn't seem to start a word... 11:19:55 yeah 11:19:58 but that's a cheat 11:20:13 compound words, or mine? 11:20:14 you can make one word with a meaning of whole sentence 11:21:20 There's "kahdensinekymmenensine-ensimmäisineen" as a spontaneous word in the logs, but that's just an inflected (the silly comitative case, I think) ordinal number 21, with the third-person singular possessive suffix. 11:21:25 i should make an esolang whish would look like finnish words 11:21:59 heheh, 21 is famous 11:22:00 haha, i love how finnish numbers inflict :P 11:22:14 many people don't know how to do it 11:22:15 dwudziestypierwszy in polish ;p 11:22:18 even native 11:22:42 with 3-rd person possesive suffix it would be dwudziestegopierwszego 11:23:08 dziewięćdziesiÄ…tegodziewiÄ…tego 11:23:21 99th 11:23:30 oh, so works like finnish 11:23:43 i mean, the infliction system 11:23:48 gotta get foods -> 11:23:49 i guess 11:24:15 i mean, that you map the infliction to every separate digit in the whole number 11:25:12 right 11:25:30 -!- Tritonio has joined. 11:26:48 hey oerjan, i just bought 8 rolls for 4nok :D 11:26:58 nie nie mowie po polsku 11:27:03 * oerjan points out that infliction and inflection don't quite mean the same thing, although given finnish both _may_ be appropriate 11:27:06 while you can buy one roll for 10, probably 11:27:11 polish too, i guess 11:27:34 oerjan: wiem to, ja nie mówie po fiÅ„sku :) 11:27:38 rolls of what? 11:27:51 from bakery 11:27:51 nooga: was that for me? 11:27:52 ;p 11:27:58 yea 11:28:10 you both begin with o 11:28:11 ;p 11:28:24 my father has been to poland, apparently 11:28:40 "why were you there?" "to pass the time" 11:28:57 strangely enough i think i understand everything except "wiem" 11:28:58 nooga: my father wants to know where you live in poland 11:29:19 oklopol: in poznan 11:29:31 he's been tehre 11:29:32 *there 11:29:50 oerjan: hehe, wiem to = i know that.. 11:30:31 oklopol: cool, probably 20 years aggo, when poland was in dam USSR and looked like shit ;/ 11:30:37 damn* 11:31:42 nooga: 1968 first, then 3 times after that, but didn't remember when 11:31:54 ahh 11:32:02 it must be horrible 11:32:19 to remember those times ;p 11:32:53 well, he was there "to pass the time", and he was there four times, i don't think it was *that* unpleasant 11:33:48 i like to go and pass the time in scandinavia ;p 11:33:53 eg. nera indre folda 11:33:56 near* 11:35:07 -!- ehird` has joined. 11:37:45 and fight with mosquitos big as tractors 11:37:46 '[ 11:38:14 yeah they're huge, i just was a meter long one on my trip to school today 11:38:20 *i just saw 11:39:10 hre, we've got small ones an they're not immune to repellents, like yours 11:39:55 hmm... you must have really good eyes, if they're smaller than ours 11:40:09 (i've been to norway, they're pretty pathetic there too :)) 11:41:38 it's not the size, it's the numbers. especially in Finnmark, i hear. 11:42:07 (northernmost county) 11:44:34 ahh 11:44:38 oh, that i must agree with... 11:44:41 i must create some sandwitches 11:45:18 i remember being on a car trip with my parents, we once had to stop for a while because you actually couldn't see well enough to drive 11:45:26 because of the moswuitoes 11:45:27 *q 11:45:33 ZOMG 11:46:13 Misread "being in a car trap with my parents". That sounds interesting. 11:46:15 "honey, today i overtook 6 mosquitos on the highway"" 11:48:17 i was cleaning the grill of my car on every stop 11:48:41 to make it white again 11:49:17 -!- ehird`_ has joined. 11:50:02 i don't think insisting on a clean car in Norway is good for your sanity. although mostly because of mud, i guess. 11:52:05 and those gravel roads 11:52:09 they suck 11:52:19 everybody drive fast on them 11:52:32 -!- ololobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:52:40 -!- ehird` has quit (No route to host). 11:52:40 darn, gotta restart 11:52:42 *reboot 11:52:52 and damage my precious paint with little rocks 11:53:42 although i've heard worse things about italians - apparently they consider the car bumper a tool to be used during parking 11:53:53 yeah 11:57:14 heh 11:57:39 oh, yeah, the reboot... 11:57:41 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )"). 12:00:19 hehe 12:01:05 in poland, if the speed limit is 90 you go 100-110 or faster 12:01:10 on normal road 12:01:26 in norway, i tried to keep 80 12:01:38 because i was afraid of police 12:02:17 here, maximal ticket is about 1000nok (eg. for driving 140 when the limit is 50 12:02:21 ) 12:03:12 ah yes the fines were increased a while ago to amounts even norwegians consider ridiculous 12:03:47 -!- ehird`_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 12:03:49 -!- ehird` has joined. 12:12:07 -!- Figs has joined. 12:12:16 http://digg.com/apple/Steve_Jobs_Offers_Early_Lisa_Adopters_Store_Credit <-- :P 12:14:52 http://www.bbspot.com/News/2007/08/iphone-hacker-headed-to-guantanamo.html 12:14:54 this one is better 12:15:05 lol 12:16:17 "We couldn't have a powerful phone like the iPhone working on a speedy network. ..." 12:16:32 ...It would've become the perfect tool for fashionable terrorists. ..." 12:16:37 LOLZ! 12:16:42 "I haven't seen him sleep or comb his hair for a few weeks. He usually looks like that, so I'm not too worried." 12:16:51 ROFL 12:16:54 ah, normal 17-year old hacker 12:17:02 but to guantanamo?!!?!?! 12:17:27 that is ridiculous 12:17:55 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:18:01 for a few weeks? pssshaaw! I don't think I've combed my hair in months, let alone a *Few weeks* 12:18:11 ... hi oklopol 12:18:14 hi! 12:18:27 that reboot took you a while :D 12:18:29 http://digg.com/apple/Steve_Jobs_Offers_Early_Lisa_Adopters_Store_Credit <-- you missed the fun 12:18:37 well... i played my piano a bit 12:18:38 http://www.bbspot.com/News/2007/08/iphone-hacker-headed-to-guantanamo.html 12:18:40 and the other fun 12:18:43 reboot? 12:18:47 .... :P 12:18:48 i rebooted 12:18:56 ah 12:19:00 I thought you meant me 12:19:06 so you played piano, eh? :D 12:19:19 got anything for me? :D:D:D:D 12:19:24 *smily overload* 12:20:53 oh, your piece :) 12:21:13 ^.^ 12:21:23 i composed and learned to play a piece of my own a few days ago, but haven't touched yours for a while :) 12:21:29 rofl 12:21:32 ok :) 12:21:46 it's not really a piece, like 4 bars sofar 12:21:50 * Figs has beaten the guru. 12:22:03 i still think it's not that hard! 12:22:11 i'll do it before christmas kay? :) 12:22:15 lol 12:22:18 if you say so 12:22:25 you don't believe me? :D 12:22:26 * Figs would like to hear it still 12:22:36 it just sounds... familiar... :) 12:22:45 heh, yeah 12:22:59 * Figs will leave it at that ;) 12:23:35 4.5 pages of TODO list now 12:23:46 haha ;) 12:23:53 (though it also has other random stuff) 12:23:55 I still have to finish my damned parser :sigh: 12:24:18 I've been working on it (REALLY WORKING!!) since january... and I'm still not "Done" with it 12:24:24 like examples of my work-in-process conlang 12:24:24 cats you can have sex with are great 12:24:24 nipofucaa 12:24:34 i'm aiming for 4:1 12:24:42 what about cats now? O_o 12:24:52 that was an example. 12:25:01 cats you can have sex with are great == nipofucaa 12:25:15 >.> 12:25:21 okaaay. 12:25:22 though requires a bit of library imports first 12:25:35 your conlang requires libraries ?! 12:25:41 i have a hard time interpreting pieces of text with more than one languages in them == meshânucólalnatevênò 12:25:43 are we talking about the same things? 12:25:52 well, libraries, modules, whatever 12:26:09 conlangs like esperanto? 12:26:11 yeah 12:26:31 how the hell do you have modules/libraries in a spoken language? 12:26:31 what? 12:26:37 that one can be made considerably shorter with imports, it now has explicit library tags there 12:26:48 o-o 12:26:53 * Figs gives up understanding 12:26:59 well, you just have basic words in the stdlib 12:27:15 lol 12:27:16 then there's "the animal module", "the programming module" etc 12:27:20 http://www.zompist.com/kit.html 12:27:29 oklopol: how it works? 12:27:36 you have the same word base mean a different thing depending on the current library 12:27:38 oklopolio 12:27:43 what does that mean ? :P 12:28:15 how do yuou pronounce meshânucólalnatevênò 12:28:46 i'm mainly aiming for a written language, but it's pronounced as lojban, pretty much 12:28:59 ^, ´ and ` are always the same thing, i think 12:29:03 in any lang 12:29:07 meash Ayn *flarg* nUUUUC AYYYYN *slpurt* laaalnatev AYRHN ghrr-g n ayrrn SPPPH 12:29:09 like that 12:29:17 i prefer 'flooble' 12:29:21 "meshânucólalnatevênò" -> "flooble" 12:29:26 oklopol: esperanto 12:29:31 what about it? 12:29:47 horlogo 12:29:51 ehird`: what's the logic there? 12:30:01 you gotta have logic! 12:30:05 oklopol: its easier than pronouncing "meshânucólalnatevênò" 12:30:09 thats my logic 12:30:21 i only like languages with odd alphabets anyway 12:30:35 ehird`: like apl? :P 12:30:40 yes! 12:30:43 http://www.zompist.com/dhitelan.gif 12:30:44 i don't really care about the alphabet 12:30:45 aq fnt brk sprtsñkert grfnak 12:31:19 çeãt 12:31:34 meshânucólalnatevênò is easy to pronounce anyway 12:31:51 once you know how the tone stuff works 12:31:56 is it "tone"? 12:31:59 of course! You just say "meash Ayn *flarg* nUUUUC AYYYYN *slpurt* laaalnatev AYRHN ghrr-g n ayrrn SPPPH" 12:32:02 intonation... or something 12:32:11 çæjË™t 12:32:14 ^ that should be a word 12:32:27 AsholAngrrjeytamart 12:32:55 have fun with that one :D 12:33:11 Figs: that supposed to be hard to pronounce? 12:33:23 no 12:33:26 i don't see how anything can be hard to pronounce, just make the sounds :| 12:33:29 that's my interpretation of what you said 12:33:33 çæjË™t, i like that word 12:33:47 i don't know what ç and æ are 12:33:49 oklopol: is "a" pronounced "augh" or "ooo""? 12:33:55 oklopol: pronounciation is language-specific. 12:34:00 ehird`: like in "car" 12:34:15 oklopol: see, you have to specify that. 12:34:19 i did. 12:34:22 o caro mio 12:34:25 ¿oo+ umop ap!s&n ×le+ noh ue> 12:34:41 "it's pronounced as lojban, pretty much" 12:34:43 [try turning your head over] 12:36:12 yay 12:36:22 (was aiming for "heh") 12:37:06 yeq 12:37:44 6nqwny 12:37:54 :P 12:38:00 i can read that now \o/ 12:38:13 çæj't 12:38:35 ????ll?n??? 'un? ?o pui? si si?? 12:38:39 és'h 12:38:43 ehird`: do specify how that's pronounced 12:39:06 ¿oo? no? o? u?op-?pisdn dn ?o?s si?? s?op 12:39:06 çæj't is pronounced kinda like english "gait" 12:39:21 does that work, or do you guys get boxes? 12:39:28 Figs: question marks 12:39:36 darn 12:39:54 ehird`: but not exactly like it? 12:40:03 "gait" == "gate", right? 12:40:13 oklopol: yeah 12:40:16 its kind of like "gate" 12:40:19 but not really 12:40:39 well what's different? 12:40:47 are there consonants english doesn't have? 12:40:59 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:41:00 what do you say when some trips over their fence? ... His gait was off?... not really funny :( 12:41:01 i'll try and find words to explain it 12:41:21 * oerjan chuckled 12:41:25 :P 12:41:36 http://www.revfad.com/flip.html <-- evil and cool together 12:41:47 when a gate is off, is it closed? 12:41:58 when a gait is off, is it off-beat? 12:42:59 bah, just strange hooks 12:43:04 hooks? 12:44:08 tÌÃ¥s'É” 12:44:11 hm 12:44:16 t-with-` doesn't display properly 12:44:22 just t thent 12:44:26 tÃ¥s'É” 12:44:30 hm 12:44:31 not sure about É” 12:44:43 tÃ¥s'ÊŒ 12:44:53 tÃ¥s'É› 12:45:01 squareee 12:45:01 tÃ¥s'ɪ 12:45:05 squareee 12:45:06 squareee 12:45:08 no 12:45:13 [][][][][][] 12:45:13 use utf-8 12:45:14 :/ 12:45:30 [.]_ [.] <(Balrog says "Hi") 12:45:36 kudos if you get it 12:45:44 * Figs + lame ascii art 12:45:49 tÃ¥sËŒc 12:45:51 hm 12:45:53 ËŒ is ugly 12:45:53 Figs: like the upper left corner of a rectangle 12:46:32 (that flip page) 12:47:09 is [] allowed in a nick name? 12:47:13 -!- Figs has changed nick to Figs][. 12:47:16 cool 12:47:24 I'm figs ][ 12:47:32 -!- Figs][ has changed nick to Apple][. 12:47:34 damn 12:47:43 frozen 12:47:54 -!- Apple][ has changed nick to Figs][. 12:48:00 frozen Apples? yuck 12:48:43 -!- Figs][ has changed nick to Figs. 12:49:14 -!- oklopol has changed nick to []kl[]p[]l. 12:49:16 <[]kl[]p[]l> yeah 12:49:28 lol 12:49:39 <[]kl[]p[]l> this is some nick abuse 12:49:44 -!- []kl[]p[]l has changed nick to oklopol. 12:50:34 0kl0p0| 12:50:45 is | allowed? 12:51:35 -!- oklopol has changed nick to o|. 12:51:37 yeah 12:51:41 check the spec 12:51:44 -!- o| has changed nick to oklopol. 12:52:06 | is the same as \ iirc 12:52:12 çæj't 12:52:13 tÃ¥s'i 12:52:14 there's a speck on my cheque 12:52:25 çæj't is kind of like "gate", but not really 12:52:33 challenge: what does tÃ¥s'i sound like 12:52:44 tos.i? 12:52:52 no 12:52:54 Ã¥ is "aaaah" 12:52:59 like in father 12:53:00 so taas.i 12:53:15 the t isn't really a t 12:53:20 what then? 12:53:33 "the", "thick", "day"? 12:53:42 well, i'll try and pronounce çæj't 12:53:43 or just "t" without the implicit "h" 12:53:56 i forgot the term again... 12:54:19 well, ç is kind of like a cross between "c" and hard "g" 12:54:35 æ is "ay" in english 12:54:36 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fig_newton2.jpg <-- I should set this as my icon 12:54:41 j is "y" in english 12:54:58 ' means "don't do the crazy mushing-together-consonant-stuff-on-this", so it's like a break. it is not pronounced 12:55:07 t is kind of like a "soft" english t 12:55:14 -!- sebbu has quit ("reboot"). 12:55:14 "glottal stop", right? 12:55:18 its kind of like the "t" in "th", except more pronounced 12:55:27 ecchi! 12:55:33 the "t" in "th" can be two different things 12:55:37 so çæj't /kind of/ sounds like "gate" 12:55:40 but not really 12:55:45 also, in british english there's a third one 12:55:48 does that make sense? 12:56:04 oklopol: i'm british, so the british english "then" i think 12:56:14 oklopol: "the" is too soft a t 12:56:32 "the" is the exception, you seem to have a separate consonant for that.. 12:56:50 maybe the "t" in "the" 12:56:56 yeah, the "t" in "the" except more pronounced 12:57:00 i.e. not /quite/ as soft 12:57:04 still soft, but now audible 12:57:08 do pronounce on tape :) 12:57:15 audiobin! 12:57:17 i have trouble pronouncing it myself :p 12:57:28 i can play it in my head :p 12:57:50 well send it 12:57:53 via telepathy 12:58:18 whoa, my comment got 86 points on reddit 12:58:29 linky? 12:58:43 what's your reddit name 12:59:03 http://reddit.com/user/ehird/ << --- ? 12:59:14 haha, I read that earlier 12:59:23 {the invisible one, right?} 12:59:26 yeah 12:59:31 I thought the name looked familiar 12:59:34 but I couldn't remember why 12:59:40 * Figs = idiot 12:59:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("Dinner"). 12:59:48 heh 12:59:54 http://www.revfad.com/flip.html <<< "w" and "m" give me squares, is that because i don't have utf8 or it just doesn't know? 12:59:56 i am internet-omnipotent 12:59:56 I have (1) karma :'( 13:00:09 Figs: me too 13:03:49 hmm, çæj't and tÃ¥s'i are beginning to look like regular words 13:03:57 instead of exotic belches of text 13:04:05 text-belch, blargh! 13:04:29 İë?û+rëñ 13:04:30 xD 13:04:36 incompatible encoding 13:04:37 use utf8 13:04:48 I used ascii magic :P 13:04:54 use utf8!! 13:04:56 :p 13:05:18 ? <-- help me find a way to make that look naughty 13:05:45 http://mirror.linnwood.org/flamethrower/ 13:05:46 O_O 13:05:54 ehird`: they looked pretty normal all along, i just don't know what they mean yet 13:05:58 are you gonna tell me :) 13:06:06 oklopol: what, they're meant to have meaning?.. 13:06:15 they mean what they say. 13:06:20 oklopol: I just wrote words that could be pronounced in a consistent system because they looked and sounded nice. 13:06:21 didn't you know that? ;) 13:06:35 endofendobargraph. 13:06:46 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 13:07:18 hello SEO_DUDE 13:07:54 * oklopol wants meaning! 13:08:35 it means it's not cheesy enough. 13:08:45 * Figs invented a meaning. 13:08:48 oklopol: Help me develop it as a conlang then :p 13:09:05 ehird`: Jo ho ho no ho lo ko po ho? 13:09:14 Figs: Ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho? 13:09:24 Ho ho ho! Sa ho ho klaus. 13:09:29 ehird`: right after i finish my own languages :) 13:09:48 se ya next millenium 13:10:21 ok 13:10:22 ;) 13:11:39 ehird`, you are now my friend 13:11:49 [on reddit] 13:12:39 :D YAY AM HAPPY LOLLERSKATES. 13:12:42 Um. yeah 13:21:44 * Figs lollerscates around 13:25:31 -!- sebbu has joined. 13:29:51 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:50:43 -!- jix has joined. 14:07:08 !!! 14:07:10 Huh? 14:27:38 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Object_disoriented_Turing-completeness_proof Error!! 14:43:14 wow 14:43:20 the post is taking off 14:43:23 14 diggs 14:50:52 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:51:03 -!- jix has joined. 14:52:37 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:10:34 where 14 diggs? 15:12:38 http://digg.com/apple/Steve_Jobs_Offers_Early_Lisa_Adopters_Store_Credit 15:12:40 16 now 15:13:13 Figs: what's the error? 15:13:23 it doesn't load and says error? 15:13:33 or did 15:14:21 ergh, if we could just get like, 7 ~ 10 diggs all at the same time 15:14:25 this link would take off 15:14:28 Figs: i've found that article!@ 15:14:42 ? 15:15:27 13:12 < Figs> http://digg.com/apple/Steve_Jobs_Offers_Early_Lisa_Adopters_Store_Credit <-- :P 15:15:30 13:15 < nooga> http://www.bbspot.com/News/2007/08/iphone-hacker-headed-to-guantanamo.html 15:15:34 13:15 < nooga> this one is better 15:15:35 lol 15:15:39 lol i'm stupid 15:15:41 sorry 15:15:46 :D 15:15:53 ok, nothing 15:15:56 bbl 15:16:00 lol 15:17:15 cya nooga 15:23:20 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:23:31 -!- oklopol has joined. 15:39:00 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:43:22 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:12:52 heading off 16:12:52 -!- Figs has left (?). 16:49:42 -!- jix has joined. 16:59:50 Hi jix 17:01:50 nooga: the shorter one 17:03:58 * Sgeo wonders if there's anything else PSOX needs 17:04:05 Besides the builtin domains 17:04:14 * Sgeo is considering removing RStrings.. 17:05:33 * Sgeo waits for bsmntbombdood to make his usual insult against PSOX 17:08:46 when has bsmntbombdood ever insulted psox? 17:09:12 unless you consider constructive criticism, like I give and that I've seen bsmntbombdood give related to PSOX, insults 17:10:09 PSOX stands for "PSOX Sucks Other's Xenophobia" 17:11:15 ho-kay 17:18:16 Blargh, I forgot whatever criticism there may have been 17:18:21 * Sgeo goes through logs 17:18:27 bsmntbombdood has only said "psox has not point", iirc :P 17:18:33 i'm not sure if that's constructive 17:19:03 bsmntbombdood has not a car 17:19:04 e 17:19:56 heh 17:20:11 i think psox is a great idea 17:20:20 ty oklopol 17:20:56 ti-84 makes me wanna kill myself 17:21:18 ..? 17:21:31 the features seem to be picked completely at random, and there is no syntax that binds them 17:21:38 everything is done in a random fashion 17:21:46 which you have to check from the manual 17:21:56 ti-84 is my oh so lovely calculator 17:22:19 now implementing "sublist"... 17:22:25 I guess I should make the functions in the domains have some sort of sensible order.. 17:23:05 Well, you can write z80 assembler for it; there's no need to use the silly TI-BASIC. 17:23:25 (At least the TI-BASIC version my TI-86 uses is silly.) 17:24:09 fizzie: yes, but then again, i could just as well code python on my laptop 17:24:35 when coding for the same of coding, it doesn't really matter what you code for... 17:24:38 *sake 17:25:23 * Sgeo doesn't know how to make the functions have a sensible order 17:26:33 At least the order of the domains is sane: 0x00 and 0x01 are Pseudodomains, 0x02 is PSOX-System, 0x04 is Simple Utils, 0x06 is File I/O (note that 'F' is the 6th letter), 0x08 is HTTP (note that 'H' is the 8th letter) 17:26:46 I did floyd-steinberg error-distribution dithering with TI-BASIC once. I think it took around 15 minutes to process a single full-screen (128x64-pixel) greyscale frame. 17:26:46 erm, maybe just somewhat sane.. 17:29:58 heh 17:30:09 i'm not making anything with a big name, so the speed'll do 17:30:22 lol 17:57:44 argh so tired 17:58:10 Sgeo: Believe me, I can sympathise. 17:58:21 I had a migraine that kept me up all last night. 18:07:38 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:19:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:23:10 Hi sebbu2 and oerjan 18:25:49 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 18:25:49 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:29:40 hi Sgeo 19:05:08 High! 19:05:15 Hi SimonRC 19:05:24 No, "high". 19:05:32 hm? 19:05:43 lo 19:06:17 ok, so I am feeling high and oklopol is feeling low 19:06:47 we need a conversation topic... 19:07:19 I think everyone knows what I would suggest.. 19:07:41 teaching combinatorics to my ex :D 19:07:57 what a great way to train for the listening comprehension in german tomorrow... 19:08:03 Any idea what the "other side" of vore is? 19:08:09 vore? 19:08:22 Sgeo: actually, probably best not to look it up 19:08:39 "vorarephilia" 19:09:04 you should be able to decompose that into its roots 19:14:20 if vore is eating, the other side is exreteting? 19:14:45 *excreting 19:15:02 no 19:15:16 I mean, vore is being eaten 19:15:17 personally i think people who butcher latin grammar like that deserve to be eaten alive :D 19:15:35 oerjan: unless they enjoy that sort of thing 19:16:15 * oerjan notes joke strangely passing straight over SimonRC's head 19:16:15 i don't get it 19:16:39 no, I caught it 19:30:41 Does PSOX need anything more, other than the builtin domains? 19:32:21 diiiiiiiner! 19:37:01 Just domains and functions, as far as I can tell. 19:37:18 Should I remove RStrings? 19:39:39 They seem redundant.. 19:39:44 * Sgeo pokes pikhq 19:44:34 * pikhq is poked 19:44:39 How are they redundant? 19:44:57 Longstrings could be used instead. What esolang would want to send RStrings? 19:54:16 Any response? 19:59:28 Good point. 20:03:32 hmm... 20:03:47 For File I/O, I only need to really provide one unsafe function: Change Current Directory 20:03:57 There would be a safe version and an unsafe version.. 20:04:22 and other file stuff needs to be in the current working directory 20:04:37 actually, you'd set a directory to a number 0-255 20:04:52 and the file stuff would refer to that number to work in that directory.. 20:07:47 hm, but a user giving permission to change directory to ~ just gave it permission to do ANYTHING.. 20:07:48 :( 20:08:56 So scrap that idea 20:19:50 -!- ihope___ has joined. 20:19:56 -!- ihope___ has changed nick to ihope. 20:20:49 -!- ihope has quit (Client Quit). 20:29:56 eat tiles 20:30:09 eh? 20:31:03 they're tasty and healthy 20:32:25 TILES! 20:33:35 those from bathroom 20:35:46 PEE on my TILES! 20:37:34 -!- importantshock has joined. 20:51:41 Hi importantshock 20:51:57 hey Sgeo, what's going on? 20:52:14 * Sgeo thinks the core of PSOX is almost finished 20:52:47 you? 20:57:19 hating Python web development 20:57:26 hm? 20:59:37 there is little to no documentation for anything, all the libraries are changing around daily, the Django guys are total wankers, and meanwhile Ruby and Rails are kicking our ass more and more every day 21:00:05 Aren't there stable versions of Django? 21:00:42 yes, but Django comes with a lot of things i don't like 21:00:56 their ORM sucks compared to SQLAlchemy 21:01:10 TurboGears? 21:01:39 python web development is trivial 21:01:54 ruby on rails does not kick python web lib's asses because it is fundamentally wrong 21:02:03 django guys are indeed total wankers, as are turbogears and web.py 21:02:10 SQLAlchemy, on the other hand, scares off almost everybody with its hideously verbose table declarations 21:02:12 sqlalchemy is kinda lame imo 21:02:17 Pylons is great 21:02:20 Paste and CherryPy are quite nice 21:02:23 i don't like pylons that much 21:02:40 pylons seems to fit my mental model, it's simply a matter of personal preference 21:02:42 personally i use my tiny little wrapper around raw wsgi 21:02:50 but SQLAlchemy 0.4 doesn't play nice with ANYTHING AT ALL. 21:02:53 which right now is just an extremely short object publisher 21:03:00 but i'm going to add sessions of some sort sometiime 21:03:21 i run multiple sites by writing a very small (50 line) raw-wsgi script which forwards requests to different apps 21:03:26 it all works beautifully along with fastcgi 21:03:35 Elixir, an awesome declarative layer on top of SQLAlchemy, got fucked by SA's multiple changes 21:03:37 oh, yeah, and i'm still mulling over templating languages 21:03:46 i'll probably write my own 21:03:48 ehird`: i like Mako 21:04:20 mako looks quite nice, but i want something all python 21:04:28 i'll make an example of my current syntax idea.. 21:04:48 * Sgeo doesn't get what's wrong with Django.. 21:05:02 Sgeo: its bloated, its not pythonic, it sucks 21:05:31 Sgeo: They keep reinventing wheels other people have perfected 21:06:52 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/private/7x9wtnmmizbnlupczinznw 21:07:06 ^ example of my current in-my-head syntax for the ideal templating language 21:07:27 sucks! 21:07:28 you'll notice that [[ ... ]] is statements and {{ ... }} expressions 21:07:35 * jix clicks on that url 21:07:47 and the def blocks are naturally handled because :-ending lines add 1 to indentation in the compiled output, etc. - it's not hardcoded 21:08:03 so you could do [[ with x: ]] ... [[ end with ]] or any of those syntaxes ending with : 21:08:07 and starting an indented block 21:08:07 ehird`: i saw a new templating language that sort of looks like that 21:08:11 can't remember which one though 21:08:17 importantshock: jinja? 21:08:26 importantshock: if so, yeah but it doesn't use python =/ 21:08:33 all the templating engines are really overengineered 21:08:38 ehird`: yeah, jinja 21:08:40 implementing the one in my paste would be very trivial 21:11:23 ehird`: on the bright side there are so many templating engines that there's probably at least one that fits your zen 21:11:30 unless you want to implement it 21:12:41 yeah i've searched but i can't find one 21:12:47 i guess i will just implement my syntax there 21:14:05 on a web note 21:14:15 does anyone know some sort of basic fastcgi server i can just do: 21:14:35 "server my-fastcgi-file.fcgi" and it'll spawn it and also run a minimal development-oriented webserver with that? 21:14:39 itd make testing a dream 21:16:32 (related note on the templating language: {{var}} is escaped by default, {{func(var)}} isn't - i'll have to think about how i'm going to do that) 21:18:26 Gah, it seems like for SQLAlchemy 0.4 everyone just sat down and said "how can we make our library more obtuse, indirect, and difficult to learn?" 21:19:51 importantshock: perhaps espy's orm will suit you 21:19:56 its an orm without the orm 21:20:10 orm? 21:20:19 conn.select('*', from='table', limit=3) 21:20:28 i haven't decided on "where" yet but probably: 21:20:55 i like SA's query syntax 21:20:55 conn.select('*', from='table', limit=3, where=F('field') > 3) 21:21:03 filter_by() is good 21:21:05 F, of course, being a placeholder class 21:21:08 just getting it to WORK pisses me off 21:21:21 conn.select('*', from='table', limit=3, where=(F('field') > 3) and (F('anotherfield') == 'a')) 21:26:12 maybe even: 21:26:43 conn.select('*', from=User, limit=3, where=User.field > 3 and User.anotherfield == 'a') 21:27:26 importantshock: does that look good? :) 21:27:59 it doesn't imho 21:28:05 why the *? 21:28:22 seems too SQL-ish to me 21:28:26 personally 21:28:37 i like my queries executable from class objects 21:28:37 What's wrong with Django's way? 21:28:39 ok, how about conn.select(ALL, ...) or similar 21:29:02 the thing about queries from class objects is that from an OOP point of view they don't make a lot of sense 21:29:12 User.select_by(field=whatever...) 21:29:14 you are performing the query on the database connection, and you want instances as a /result/ 21:30:43 so yeah. 21:30:54 i see what you're saying, but still 21:31:02 i feel an ORM should hide details of database connections 21:31:45 and from a purely aesthetic point of view, class queries are more readable 21:31:50 it does hide it quite well 21:32:00 but a database connection is still a tangible thing 21:32:07 and it's a thing that you perform operations on -- like selecting 21:32:23 you don't "perform" a select on the type of all users... 21:32:32 you "perform" a select on the database connection to get some users 21:34:36 what django? 21:34:40 where django? 21:34:44 who codes django 21:34:46 ? :D 21:38:06 i want the database connection to be hidden 21:38:18 i have users and don't want to care about what connection i use to access them 21:38:35 and if i want to get something about users i want to use the users class 21:39:33 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 21:53:30 -!- importantshock has quit. 22:11:17 * Sgeo should work on the domains now 22:11:46 Hm, simple utils should have the printy stuff, math, and a rng 22:12:43 Anything else? 22:15:31 pikhq, with the simple math stuff, what should happen with overflows in single-byte mode? 22:15:58 Sgeo: Wrap. 22:18:21 * nooga have just hacked some community portal written by swedes ;D 22:19:14 shooting fish in a barrel does not count as "hacking" 22:20:37 pikhq, what about div. by zero? 22:21:31 Hmm. 22:21:49 no no, really, through blind sql injection 22:21:53 infinity! 22:22:09 Well, you could either follow the behavior of Brainfuck, error out, or return some meaningless value. 22:22:52 indeed, what _does_ brainfuck do on division by zero again ;D 22:23:11 Would a status code be ok? 22:23:12 enters while(1){} 22:23:13 :D 22:23:22 -!- ihope has joined. 22:23:23 Do the Befunge thing: ask the user. 22:23:26 Even though the other single-byte maths don't have error codes? 22:23:27 The typical Brainfuck division algorithm does an infinite loop on divide by zero. . . 22:23:31 . . . Right. 22:23:37 Sgeo: Return 0? 22:23:49 Halt? 22:23:50 return 0 and warning 22:23:57 Would status codes be too difficult? 22:24:02 They could always be discarded.. 22:24:10 Would 0x01 be error, or 0x00? 22:24:20 i wonder how bdsm does it 22:24:32 !sadol !/10 22:24:35 BDSM: Double division '/' by 0 (index: 1, row: 1, col: 2) 22:24:44 wha? 22:25:44 * Sgeo pokes pikhq 22:26:01 and should I add overflow/underflow status to the single-byte operations? 22:33:16 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 22:34:34 Command to get error status? 22:34:41 (overflow, underflow, divide by 0) 22:38:09 Why add a command? 22:38:55 Isn't it easier to discard status that's in front of the resu;t? 22:41:41 * Sgeo pokes pikhq 22:42:43 division by zero = infinity ;) 22:45:04 Well, I should get going now 22:46:46 Please note the new http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt and http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-utils.txt 22:46:57 Bye all 22:47:08 The psox-utils.txt isn't finished, ofc 22:47:18 I will work on that tomorrow or, if I'm lucky, later today 22:47:38 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 23:18:47 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 23:39:35 -!- Rodger-Labs has joined. 23:40:13 aw, man- these lab machines have a terrible IRC client. <:/ 23:40:38 what's up, everyone? 23:41:18 not much for the last hour 23:41:45 Sgeo is working on his PSOX 23:42:50 cool. 23:43:20 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:44:59 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("haaaaaaaaaa"). 23:59:06 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 2007-09-11: 00:59:42 it appears coldfusion is not turing complete 00:59:49 based on the fact that you can't implement coldfusion in coldfusion 01:03:54 that means it could be more powerful than a turing machine 01:05:45 heh 01:19:21 -!- ehird` has quit. 01:34:43 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:08:45 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:09:24 * pikhq ã¯ãƒ”ックエッãƒã‚­ãƒ¥ãƒ¼ã ï¼ï¼ï¼ 02:18:52 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 02:37:50 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:07:38 -!- Rodger-Labs has left (?). 03:15:00 -!- importantshock has joined. 03:49:28 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:40:16 -!- zuzu_ has joined. 04:44:30 -!- importantshock has quit. 04:54:16 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:20:42 -!- immibis has joined. 08:21:09 -!- immibis has left (?). 09:05:01 -!- RedDak has joined. 09:49:51 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:46:12 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 11:55:29 -!- ehird` has joined. 12:19:27 -!- RedDak has quit ("I'm quitting... Bye all"). 12:40:44 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:54:50 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 12:59:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:03:37 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:15:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 13:38:16 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:03:16 -!- jix has joined. 14:04:15 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:26:36 -!- Tritonio has joined. 14:33:09 -!- jix has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:33:44 -!- jix has joined. 14:34:28 -!- Overand has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:34:31 -!- Overand has joined. 14:36:38 -!- lament has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:36:46 -!- lament has joined. 14:51:24 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:51:36 -!- jix has joined. 15:14:22 i wonder if you can make a turing-complete system out of differential and integral calculus 15:15:09 i'm pretty sure you can 15:15:36 a rotten apple in the end of a string is tc 15:26:28 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:28:12 * Sgeo wonders if he should include some function somewhere for putting 0x00 in the input stream 15:28:25 Might be nice for some input processing.. 15:48:05 -!- ihope has joined. 15:50:20 -!- ihope has quit (Client Quit). 15:51:31 -!- ihope has joined. 15:51:47 Hello, world! 15:53:01 !sadol !9 15:53:04 9 15:53:10 How very interesting. 15:53:38 -!- importantshock has joined. 15:59:56 !sadol ,/4234 16:00:00 !sadol !,/4234 16:00:04 34 16:00:07 Can't forget that !. 16:00:37 !sadol !!3 16:00:40 33 16:01:00 !sadol !!3456 16:01:02 33 16:01:09 !sadol !,!3456 16:01:12 BDSM: Parsing: Cannot evaluate number in compilation time (index: 2, row: 1, col: 3) 16:01:38 Yay, error. 16:03:04 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:03:22 -!- importantshock has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:05:12 Hi ihope and puzzlet 16:05:19 * Sgeo pokes his question 16:05:23 * Sgeo wonders if he should include some function somewhere for putting 0x00 in the input stream 16:06:01 Seems a little pointless. 16:06:11 Also, why limit it to 0x00? 16:06:51 The input function, when set to read a newline, might be easier to process with a 0x00 added.. 16:07:02 There might be other things like that.. 16:07:23 Maybe I should just add a 0x00 after the 0x0A from that, instead of a function for adding characters? 16:07:27 I don't see what you mean. 16:09:50 In http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt under Pseudodomains 16:10:16 Should I just add a complimentary 0x00? 16:11:21 * ihope shrugs 16:25:34 http://pastebin.ca/692103 16:25:52 My opinion on all this. 16:32:30 Slightly revised version: http://pastebin.ca/692113 16:32:33 (Sgeo?) 16:32:39 eh? 16:32:40 oh 16:35:05 um.. 16:35:48 * Sgeo fails to see how that integrates with the current state of PSOX 16:35:57 It's an alternative to PSOX. 16:36:46 (An alternative to PSOX that happens to be able to switch to PSOX, if the implementation feels like allowing that to happen.) 16:43:31 ihope, you want PSOX to be able to do arbitrary x86 stuff? 16:44:12 Yet another version, with a magic number this time: http://pastebin.ca/692131 16:44:54 Well, it's not PSOX, and the implementation (server, I guess) need not allow the program to do that. 16:46:24 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 16:49:20 Hi SEO 17:14:22 WTF 17:14:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:18:21 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:19:47 hi! 17:21:03 heheh: http://crave.cnet.co.uk/0,39029477,49292669-1,00.htm 17:21:04 Challenge: create similar images for: ZBB, DeviantArt, 4chan 17:23:24 Hi 17:34:29 hello.jpg 17:38:53 SimonRC, do you think it's easy enough for a BF program to process newlines in the current version of PSOX? 17:40:03 dunno, I haven't been keeping track 17:40:20 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt under Pseudodomains 17:43:58 * Sgeo pokes SimonRC 17:50:02 pokity poke poke poke 17:51:56 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:55:59 Sgeo: mh? 17:56:07 ah 17:56:09 * SimonRC goes 18:17:59 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:09:13 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:42:54 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:53:38 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 20:01:22 * Sgeo should work on PSOX 20:01:42 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:02:20 -!- ehird` has joined. 20:04:24 re ehird` 20:07:18 * Sgeo needs to foce himself to get working on PSOX 20:08:25 * ehird` is trying to figure out even one usage case for emacs 20:08:27 try poking yourself, it seems to work so well for everyone else :) 20:08:28 And failing 20:19:06 Sgeo: define some constants for http://pastebin.ca/692131 instead? :-P 20:19:57 If you want raw x86 access, define a PSOX domain 20:22:25 =/ 20:23:23 ehird`, hm? 20:24:31 i was just referring to my hunt for emacs-usage-cases. i can't even think of an esoteric one! 20:25:35 -!- Tritonio has joined. 20:26:35 ehird`: what do you edit with? 20:28:00 Is http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt a complete spec for the current state of PSOX? 20:28:18 Mostly 20:28:24 I'm probably going to remove RStrings 20:28:32 Er, there is another document outside of that file 20:29:01 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-safety.txt will be part of it 20:29:13 And of course, the files referred to by psox.txt 20:31:22 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-utils.txt, you mean? 20:31:33 yes 20:31:40 There will be more files: 20:31:46 SimonRC: depends 20:31:48 One for the File I/O domain, and one for HTTP 20:31:56 SimonRC: but never emacs. =) 20:32:06 Sgeo: mine's much simpler :-P 20:32:07 * SimonRC uses emacs for Haskell and vi for system stuff 20:32:33 "for (int o=0; oGet(5)+1; o++)" <--- I bet the author didn't indend that 20:32:51 (The x86 thing was just an example.) 20:32:57 ihope, and less flexible >.> 20:33:02 ((why are you in #LOLCODE? you joined in my scathing criticism of it in here when it was first released :P)) 20:33:12 How would people add their own things and not risk conflicts? 20:33:34 ehird`: I joined to troll 20:33:40 I stayed to sabotage 20:33:44 I remain to laugh 20:34:11 remember, I am the reason the 2-armed if comes in 72 different syntaxes 20:34:21 .. it does? 20:34:24 you did all of that? 20:34:26 hahahahahahahaha 20:34:44 SimonRC: pff, 72? 71 would be much more impressive :-P 20:34:49 every time people disagreed about anything, I just 20:35:06 involked the spirit of PL/I and sugested they compromise 20:35:09 Sgeo: oh, someone could create a "switch" raw format or something. 20:35:24 SimonRC: marry me. 20:35:25 xD 20:35:57 "LOLCODE should be clean and kid-safe." -- wikipedia article 20:36:01 shit, are they gonna make kids use this stuff? 20:36:10 i fear for the next generation of programmers 20:36:30 nah 20:36:38 this generation grew up with BASIC 20:36:45 ah, shit, I see what you mean 20:36:50 -- exactly 20:36:55 this generation uses PHP 20:36:57 ;) 20:37:09 Does this mean that "shit" is going to be LOLCODE syntax? :-P 20:38:14 IM IN UR SHIT 20:39:32 http://lolcode.com/contributions/contributions how much of this crap did you make, SimonRC? 20:40:33 "This describes continuations, or as we like to call them (rather confusingly), threads. " <-- what. 20:42:24 I only contributed to the 1.0 spec; I missed the other meetings. http://lolcode.com/specs/1.0 20:43:15 Since all variables are arrays, <-- please tell me you did that 20:44:59 /please/ 20:45:13 Wasn't that in the factory language? 20:45:48 i honestly don't know but its such a retarded idea that it has to be a troll 20:47:06 * ihope ponders generalization 20:47:56 I want a language feature that all other language features are really just instances of. 20:48:22 ihope: make it a Language Feature specification system 20:48:34 Hmm. 20:48:35 (Aka a turing-complete programming language so you can implement the features...) 20:48:38 Recursion =D 20:49:49 Maybe all language features are either checks or... um, that other thing. 20:49:52 all variables are arrays in MATLAB. 20:50:04 What are they arrays of? 20:50:33 Hey, you can do worse: all variables could be parsers :-) 20:50:44 All values, rather. 20:51:07 ihope: numbers, usually. 20:51:11 ie, variables are matrices 20:51:34 setting a variable to a number actually sets it to be a 1x1 matrix. 20:51:36 I see. 20:52:05 I'm guessing you don't have first-class functions in this language. 20:52:16 i don't think so. 20:53:02 Those could be hard to represent as matrices of numbers. 20:53:02 MATLAB has anonymous functions (stuff like "@(x) x*x") you can pass as parameters and return as values; but they might not do lexical closures or anything. Don't remember the details. 20:53:38 Not everything is an array there; but there are no non-array numeric types, all numbers are 1x1 arrays. 20:54:36 Ok, see the "get newline" thing for the PSOX Pseudodomain input? 20:54:42 Should I have a 0x00 come after it? 20:55:54 * Sgeo pokes lament and fizzie and SimonRC 20:56:18 pikhq should probably have a say too 20:56:19 I haven't been following that particular discussion, so unable to comment. 20:56:23 And ihope if he's interested 20:57:10 Sgeo - do you do anything but psox 20:57:36 Browsing various flash movies right now :/ 21:01:52 am i the only one who thinks http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/fugue/src/hworld.mid is nice and tuneful? 21:02:17 you might possibly be the only one to listen to it. 21:02:44 Hmm. 21:02:58 but i like it too 21:03:14 Listening to midi's == difficult 21:04:28 people should write more Fuge code 21:04:42 I like this: http://www.stephensykes.com/choon/choonmul.wav 21:05:15 and then remake it in garageband or whatever with effects so you have the soundtrack for the next wtar sars movie and also a program to print 99 bottles of beer. 21:05:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:05:23 ihope: what is that 21:05:25 This is even better: http://www.stephensykes.com/choon/choondiv.wav 21:05:27 ehird`: Choon! 21:05:46 choon? 21:06:38 choon? 21:06:38 :p 21:06:58 choon doing division sounds great 21:07:06 http://www.stephensykes.com/choon/choon.html this 21:07:47 it has a nice beat to it 21:08:27 my main complaint about choon was that it was monophonic 21:08:30 one sound at a time 21:08:55 John Cage 21:08:55 The John Cage instruction ('%') causes a one note silence in the output stream. 21:08:55 hah!! 21:09:02 shouldn't that be 4:33 of silence? 21:09:46 but choon sounds nice and sci-fiish 21:10:37 Fugue gives much more freedom to the programmer and it's entirely possible to write decent-sounding music in it 21:10:55 But... it's MIDI argharghargh! 21:11:24 http://www.stephensykes.com/play/index.html What the hell is this 21:11:52 i think it's a rubik's cube 21:12:07 Sgeo: hm, on my computer, i just have to enter the URL into firefox. 21:12:16 lament, OS? 21:12:18 OS X 21:12:31 although i'm sure on windows the behavior is the same 21:12:38 * Sgeo is using Linux and a sound card with no decent MIDI support 21:12:53 well, why are you using an inferior os? :) 21:13:14 ?! 21:13:23 -!- fax has joined. 21:13:31 Hi fax 21:13:39 hello 21:13:55 os x <3 21:14:39 I am using os x 21:16:05 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 21:17:32 I'm using, um, Windows. 21:17:45 (Yup. It's called, um, Windows now.) 21:17:49 :( 21:18:48 i'm using a computer 21:18:50 ihope: =( poor thing 21:19:10 * Sgeo decides to take inspiration from the inspiration for PSOX 21:20:22 Funny, you know, the thing that caused me to consider safety features was little '*' by some functions indicating that it should ask the user first.. 21:23:38 * ihope ponders queues in Choon 21:23:47 If you can't implement a queue, it's not Turing-complete. 21:24:23 can you implement two stacks? 21:24:40 that can simulate a deque, i think 21:24:44 I think that's of equal difficulty. 21:24:57 (also a turing tape, as you probably know) 21:25:02 It can simulate a tape easily, which is equivalent to a queue. 21:25:19 ...if not more powerful than a queue. 21:25:48 No, a queue can simulate a tape. 21:26:32 a queue can't implement a tape 21:26:38 a deque can 21:27:00 OSHI--- if I didn't reread the Easel API, I would have forgotten about time functions. 21:27:01 .. 21:27:47 What's a deque? 21:27:56 ihope: double-ended queue 21:28:20 Hmm... 21:29:25 also, if you have 3 registers that can hold nats, and some simple arithmatic, you have turing completeness 21:29:43 only 2 21:29:48 I'm pretty sure a queue can simulate a tape. 21:29:57 ihope: yes, slowly 21:29:58 Ah, yes, Minsky machine. 21:30:15 (you can use div and mod to get chunks of bits off the bottoms of the numbers, and mult and add to put them on, so you effectively have 2 stacks) 21:31:52 Yeah, you can increment and decrement with transpositions and test with the tuning fork. 21:32:21 how do you get a stack from a queue? 21:32:53 *tape 21:32:59 A tape from a queue? 21:33:29 yeah 21:33:36 No, I think it was "how do you tape a stack from a queue". 21:33:48 Have an end-of-tape marker embedded in it somewhere. Zeros can be added on either side of the end-of-tape marker as necessary. 21:33:58 you fold the tape into a loop, and have a symbol to represent the beginning-end of the tape, and keep going round it a lot 21:34:06 Yeah, that. 21:34:20 ...wait... 21:34:25 don't get it 21:34:47 Yeah. 21:34:56 And a head marker, too. 21:35:24 Put the head marker in right before the word the head is "over". 21:35:44 you will need a couple of registers too, I think 21:36:05 Finite storage, yes. 21:36:15 a queue has two operations: push, pop. implement the 4 tape operations left, right, read, write 21:37:17 well, going left right is easy... 21:37:48 you will have a register to hold th currently value 21:38:08 you push the current value, then pop a new one 21:38:09 minsky machines are pretty crazy 21:38:19 (I meant right) 21:38:22 i bet the most minimal esolang could come from one 21:38:40 ehird`: I think BCT is pretty much the most minimal esolang. 21:38:46 maybe 21:39:15 BCT doesn't have any flow control at all :-) 21:39:30 to go left you have to push a marker before pushing the current value, then push-pop all the way round the queue to the point just before it 21:39:47 I think you need two registers to do that, to give you look-ahead 21:40:24 * Sgeo pokes SimonRC to his question about input 21:41:04 huh/ 21:41:08 input? 21:41:12 i would like to see some sort of hello world in bct 21:41:13 :) 21:41:28 See for the 0x00 0x01 function, how you can choose to have PSOX give you up to a newline? 21:41:40 ehird`: just have "Hello, world!" in your initial input. 21:41:44 Sgeo: URL? 21:41:44 Should I include a complimentary 0x00 after that newline, to make processing easier in some circumstances? 21:41:49 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt 21:41:54 ihope: cheating! i want a stack emulation 21:41:57 Under Pseudodomains 21:42:00 ihope: which gets filled with Hello, world! 21:42:21 Hmm, I guess initial input would be "1" for minimalness. 21:42:41 (Oh, and MiniMAX also deserves a mention, of course.) 21:43:44 Sgeo: hm... 21:44:06 why would a NUL help? 21:45:06 So that a BF program might be doing [>,] or something if it knows the line won't have a NUL 21:45:36 waitamo, *which* NL are we talking about here? 21:46:05 After the newline retrieved by the function 21:47:33 ah... 21:48:51 yes, there should, I think 21:50:20 ehird`: it's pretty easy to fill input with an arbitrary string, as long as you know your starting string and your starting string contains a 1. 21:51:29 ihope: it shouldn't be an arbitary string - it should actually emulate a stack 21:52:17 Hmm... 21:53:25 The BCT queue is an interesting data structure, isn't it? 21:53:40 yes 21:54:03 it is not really a datastructure 21:54:14 Sure it is. 21:54:26 ...Well, it's inaccessible. 21:54:36 That sort of makes it not a data structure. 21:54:53 there is no "choce" in how to use it 21:55:07 it processes data rather than just storing it 21:55:32 That too, I guess. 21:55:40 a queue is a datastructure, a BCT is a compting machine 21:55:46 * ihope nods 21:56:08 a large array is a datastructure, a PC is a computing machine 21:56:40 the PC is not a "datastructure", but it is built around one, roughly 22:02:47 nobody has wrote a significant yael program yet =( 22:03:28 or wapr 22:05:25 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:12:32 Bye all 22:12:44 bye 22:13:04 peg'd 22:14:27 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 22:20:36 bsmntbombdood: ? 22:21:00 nothing 22:32:20 = 22:32:26 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 22:32:52 there should be impromptu challenges organized in this topic 22:33:00 like, some sort of way of proposing a challenge 22:33:01 or something 22:36:40 time for an all-punctuation argument (join in): 22:36:42 ! 22:36:44 Huh? 22:36:57 ... 22:37:33 heh 22:37:43 ¤¤¤¤¤¤ 22:37:55 there should be an esolang where parens must on no occasions be balanced 22:39:23 an esolang purely with parentheses? 22:39:23 well, you could make the closing paren undo the opening paren 22:39:46 then any program where al the parens matched would do nothing 22:40:15 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 22:40:33 Parenthesis esolangs are easy. 22:40:49 Take Iota. Replace * with ( and i with ). Prepend (. 22:40:52 or, you could take the program specified by the parens, then run it to create a program in another language, which is in turn run 22:41:07 then if the second program is nul because the first program matched, that is an error 22:41:20 ihope: yup 22:41:35 Hmm, that makes it so a list is interpreted as a list of things to be applied to i. 22:42:08 Alternatively, don't prepend (. This'll make one where they can't be matched :-) 22:48:43 () = i 22:48:52 (x y) = *xy 22:48:57 ihope: mine's bettar! 22:49:15 really? 22:49:31 that kinda looks like it has balanced brackets 22:49:37 are they actually different? 22:49:40 Doesn't that require twice as many characters as Iota, always? 22:49:45 hmm 22:49:54 Mine requires exactly one more. 22:50:11 bsmntbombdood: also, do you see how to simulate a tape with a queue? 22:50:14 i thought ihope's was for what ehird` said 22:50:30 That too. 22:50:33 oh 22:50:34 indeed. 22:59:37 hmm 22:59:44 html doesn't actually suck it turns out 22:59:47 just xhtml 23:00:01 html has this as a 100%, w3c-concurs valid document: 23:00:09 23:00:09 Minimal HTML document 23:00:09

Hello world 23:00:14 (or, of course, with

) 23:00:29 seriously -- , , -- all optional 23:00:30 XHTML sucks? 23:00:32 ihope: yes 23:00:36 How? 23:01:12 thats been discussed many other times in many places; no point repeating the whole debate 23:01:18 use google or something :) 23:01:58 html sucks because you don't need to be consistent about your tag endings? 23:02:02 ... 23:02:14 i mean, that makes html better than xhtml? 23:02:24 oklopol: you can tell the validator to scream at you for not matching tags 23:02:37 oklopol: i was referring more to the lack of bloat like a url in the doctype, stupid tag itself, etc 23:02:48 23:02:48 Minimal HTML document 23:02:48

hello world

23:02:48 is equally as fine as an example 23:02:56 nice, simple, uncluttered, a non-sucky example 23:03:16 sure 23:03:41 * ehird` is not fully decided on

23:03:57 it can be interpreted as "PARAGRAPH {}" or "END PREVIOUS PARAGRAPH; START NEW ONE" 23:04:31 i think ending them is good. 23:04:33 for consitency 23:04:44 tures! 23:05:00 I don't like putting identifiers in the 23:05:16 you use ? :p 23:05:23 I would if I could 23:05:28 its valid sgml 23:05:33 :o 23:05:39 23:05:39 Minimal HTML document</> 23:05:39 <ehird`> <h1>This is a minimal HTML document</> 23:05:39 <ehird`> <p>It's a lot less cluttered than many HTML documents you might have seen.</> 23:05:41 <ehird`> validate that 23:05:42 <ehird`> it works 23:05:44 * SimonRC fwaps ehird`. 23:05:44 * SimonRC fwaps ehird`. 23:05:44 * SimonRC fwaps ehird`. 23:05:45 <ehird`> http://validator.w3.org/#validate_by_input 23:05:50 * ehird` fwaps SimonRC 23:05:50 * ehird` fwaps SimonRC 23:05:51 * ehird` fwaps SimonRC 23:05:59 <SimonRC> you left out the BODY tags 23:06:06 <ehird`> SimonRC: please read above 23:06:13 <fax> Line 1, Column 0: character "e" not allowed in prolog. 23:06:13 <fax> ehird`: <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"> 23:06:15 <fax> :P 23:06:15 <ehird`> SimonRC: 1. thats still 100% valid 2. <body> is retarded 23:06:21 <ehird`> fax: huh? 23:06:26 <ehird`> fax: it works here... 23:06:37 <ehird`> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN">\n<title>Minimal HTML document</>\n<h1>This is a minimal HTML document</>\n<p>It's a lot less cluttered than many HTML documents you might have seen.</> 23:06:41 <fax> Passed validation 23:06:43 <ehird`> tada 23:06:46 <fax> ;D 23:06:53 <fax> I must modify my HTML generator thingy at once 23:06:56 <ehird`> however im not sure any browsers support that 23:06:56 <ehird`> haha 23:07:04 <ehird`> gecko doesn't. 23:07:11 <fax> >:| 23:07:11 <ehird`> it just doesn't recognize it as a closing tag 23:07:14 <fax> I will demand support 23:07:51 <SimonRC> weird 23:08:08 <fax> ugh 23:08:13 <fax> my stupid browser doesn't support it 23:08:20 * fax emails the programmers 23:08:32 <ehird`> the validator allows a lot of stuff that doesn't work in anything 23:08:35 <ehird`> its to-the-letter 23:09:55 <SimonRC> ah, you are usingthe abomination that is HTML 4.01, rather than the beautiful XHTML 23:10:11 <SimonRC> :-) 23:10:15 <ehird`> xhtml is not beautiful 23:10:21 <ehird`> xml is not beautiful 23:10:22 <SimonRC> it is from a computer's PoV 23:10:32 <fax> no it isn't :( 23:10:39 <SimonRC> TBH, I would prefer S-expressions 23:10:41 <ehird`> the html i showed is perfectly parsable trivially by a computer 23:10:48 <ehird`> don't blame shitty docs for the bad rep html has 23:11:03 <SimonRC> hence the ":-)" 23:11:08 <ehird`> oh 23:11:08 <ehird`> :p 23:11:31 <SimonRC> I meant that HTML is a little messy whereas XML is a bit cleaner 23:11:48 <ehird`> the downsides an xml-based language bring are probably not worth the little bit of messiness they fix ;) 23:11:58 <ehird`> + there's the whole "browser with initials IE" thing 23:12:06 <ehird`> and its, you know, "not supporting xhtml" thing 23:12:13 <bsmntbombdood> imagine if sexps were like html 23:12:23 <SimonRC> (alternatively, HTML is practical whereas XHTML is interlectual wankery) 23:12:26 <bsmntbombdood> (fn arg1 arg fn-end) 23:12:39 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: <if><eq a="x" b="y">...</if> 23:12:56 <ihope> Is XHTML 1.0 Strict the... "cleanest"? 23:13:04 <ehird`> ihope: according to zealots 23:13:06 <ihope> ehird`: eew, a and b... 23:13:33 <fax> I would rather use [html](body){p}{/[}(/body)[/html] 23:13:34 <ehird`> ihope: according to sane people - including tons of people working at "nice valid web" companies like Opera - clean HTML 4.01 Strict is the way to go 23:13:34 <SimonRC> <call><function>fn</function><argument>arg1</argument><argument>arg2</argument></call> 23:13:51 <ehird`> html 4 has the advantage of, you know, being supported by IE 23:14:11 <ehird`> and, you know, not being a messy based-on-xml-but-sometimes-not-valid-xml standard 23:14:25 <oklopol> (+ (* 4 6) (- 8 2)) ==> <+> <*> 4 6 </*> <-> 8 2 </-> </+> 23:14:35 <ehird`> oklopol: not really... 23:14:42 <SimonRC> ehird`: actually XHTML is XML 23:14:51 <SimonRC> it has a DTD, even 23:14:53 <ehird`> SimonRC: iirc there are some cases where valid xhtml is not valid xml 23:14:59 <oklopol> ehird`: why not? 23:15:01 <SimonRC> an example would be nice 23:15:07 <ihope> Indeed, IE over here doesn't like application/xhtml+xml. 23:15:21 <ehird`> SimonRC: i cannot recall 23:15:24 <SimonRC> except for some of the oddness I find with <meta>, ISTR 23:15:28 <ehird`> oklopol: + is not a valid identifier in xml 23:15:34 <ehird`> ihope: "doesn't like"? 23:15:42 <ehird`> ihope: its more like IE completely doesn't render application/xhtml+xml files 23:15:52 <bsmntbombdood> everything needs more sexp 23:15:58 <oklopol> ehird`: being like xml != being xml 23:16:02 <ehird`> ihope: and if you serve it as text/html, you're breaking the standards (well, it DOES say you can send it like that for backwards compatibility--BUT:) 23:16:09 <ehird`> ihope: it renders text/html as, well, html 23:16:11 <fax> <apply><function>+</function><li><ul><apply><function>*</function><li><ul>4</ul><ul>6</ul></li></apply></ul><ul><apply><function>-</function><li><ul>8</ul><ul>2</ul></li></apply></ul></li></apply> 23:16:19 <ehird`> ihope: so really your xhtml is just tag soup with odd /> elements and stuff. 23:16:33 <ehird`> ihope: thus, IE absolutely and 100% does not support XHTML in any way 23:16:44 <ehird`> isn't it great? :) 23:16:49 <ihope> Yup. 23:17:08 <ehird`> so: HTML 4.01 Strict is the way to go 23:17:37 * ihope sends XHTML as text/plain for fun 23:17:49 <ehird`> heh 23:19:04 <SimonRC> ihope: naughty 23:19:24 * SimonRC thinks up a FS where every file has its doctype in the metadata 23:19:32 <ehird`> SimonRC: you are evil 23:19:35 <ihope> s/sends/receives/ 23:19:45 <SimonRC> ehird`: I shall call it, HTTPFS 23:19:48 <ehird`> The title of this document should read exactly "TEST" and you should see "PASS" below: 23:19:48 <ehird`> FAIL <-- well that failed royally 23:19:55 <ehird`> SimonRC: http has nothing to do with doctypes k. 23:19:58 <ihope> ehird`: indeed. 23:20:03 <SimonRC> ehird`: um 23:20:11 <SimonRC> ehird`: HTTP has a "doctype" header 23:20:28 * ihope ponders HTML with Haskell syntax 23:20:28 <SimonRC> so an HTTPFS would have doctypes as I described, I think 23:20:35 <SimonRC> ihope: um... 23:20:47 <ehird`> SimonRC: no it does not... 23:20:48 <fax> guh 23:20:59 <fax> ihope: have you seen some haskell libs to generate html? 23:21:07 <fax> (so horrible) 23:21:08 <ihope> fax: no. 23:21:10 <oerjan> i vaguely recall doctypes are part of the MIME standard, or something like that 23:21:18 <SimonRC> fax: "horrible"?! 23:21:20 <fax> it is worse than HTML 23:21:22 <SimonRC> the are elegant 23:21:23 <ehird`> ihope: what's the syntax for maps in haskell? 23:21:28 <fax> SimonRC: D: 23:21:30 <ehird`> ihope: String => anything that is 23:21:37 <ehird`> oerjan: since when?! 23:21:38 <fax> I only saw one but it was by no means elegant 23:21:47 <ihope> ehird`: I don't think Haskell has a syntax for maps, unless you consider a function a map. 23:22:03 <SimonRC> ehird`: you just use Data.Map 23:22:07 <oerjan> well, MIME uses the same doctype designations, doesn't it? 23:22:12 <SimonRC> oerjan: yes 23:22:21 <ehird`> SimonRC: example please ;) 23:23:01 <SimonRC> just read the docs 23:23:04 <SimonRC> all should become clear 23:23:14 <ehird`> Anyway, 23:23:28 <ehird`> Map is used like 23:23:33 <ehird`> Map ("key", "key") (1, 2) right? 23:23:36 <ehird`> ok: 23:23:39 <oerjan> http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base/Data-Map.html 23:24:26 <SimonRC> ah, yes, RFC 2046 23:24:39 <SimonRC> ehird`: um, no 23:24:48 <ehird`> Html (Map () ()) [Head (Map () ()) [Meta (Map ("http-equiv", "content") ("Content-Type", "text/html") [], Title (Map () ()) ["hello"]] 23:24:51 <ehird`> well, ok 23:24:53 <bsmntbombdood> you and your fancy high-level filesystems 23:24:55 <ehird`> but that looks convoluted 23:24:56 <ehird`> =P 23:25:09 <SimonRC> ehird`: what does map have to do with html? 23:25:15 <ehird`> SimonRC: attributes 23:25:26 <ehird`> (Tag attrs children) 23:25:30 <SimonRC> nah, you want alists 23:25:41 <ehird`> children is a list of strings and Tag-s 23:25:47 <ehird`> attrs is some kind of string=>string map 23:25:53 <ehird`> voila, html in haskell 23:26:02 <fax> [([Char],[[Char]])] 23:26:12 <fax> eh that's not what I meant 23:26:27 <ehird`> meh: 23:26:48 <bsmntbombdood> (html (title "Minimal HTML document") (h1 "This is a minimal HTML document") (p "It's a lot less cluttered than many HTML documents you might have seen.")) 23:26:55 <ihope> html {Head = head {Title = "foo"}; Body = [p "Hello, world!"]} 23:26:57 <ihope> Meh. 23:27:09 <fax> that would be ok 23:27:15 <ehird`> ihope: what is that? 23:27:15 <fax> if its composable 23:27:20 <bsmntbombdood> of course with less horrid abbreviations 23:27:50 <ihope> I like that sexp stuff. 23:27:59 <ihope> ...assuming that's a sexp :-P 23:28:02 <bsmntbombdood> yes 23:28:03 <ehird`> ihope: :p 23:28:04 <SimonRC> Text.Html does cool things with typeclasses to remove most of the hard part of writing Html 23:28:12 <SimonRC> s/hard/tedious/ 23:28:17 <ehird`> APL html 23:28:17 <bsmntbombdood> SimonRC: what's that? 23:28:27 <ehird`> {HTML"@!!h~["fo"~@KO"Hello, world! 23:28:32 <fax> http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/html/Text-Html.html 23:28:38 <SimonRC> ehird` was talking about it 23:28:45 <bsmntbombdood> i mean, the hard part 23:28:49 <SimonRC> it is the Haskell HTML-producing library 23:28:51 <fax> wow that's real 23:29:00 <oerjan> although there is absolutely nothing in that sexp that is illegal haskell syntax... 23:29:01 <fax> I never saw that before 23:29:04 <ehird`> SimonRC: was I?? 23:29:10 <ehird`> SimonRC: wow, I just described my own syntax 23:29:10 <ehird`> haha 23:29:12 <fax> lol 23:29:21 <bsmntbombdood> oerjan: that's data, not code 23:29:29 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: what is different? 23:29:35 <ehird`> ) 23:29:37 <ehird`> err... 23:29:39 <ehird`> no end tags! 23:29:40 <ehird`> damn 23:29:42 <ehird`> </lisp> 23:29:45 <ehird`> (kinda ruins it) 23:30:03 <SimonRC> ehird`: ah, you were not using Text.HTML 23:30:36 <ehird`> heh 23:30:39 <SimonRC> you can do things like foo +++ bar, and both foo and bar are auto-converted to HTML 23:30:45 <SimonRC> and HTML is not just strings 23:30:50 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: ok make those upper-case then it's data :) 23:30:50 <ehird`> cool, but i write my html in html 23:30:50 <ehird`> heh 23:30:58 <ehird`> on the subject of html 23:31:05 <ehird`> what are people here's opinions of templating languages? 23:31:17 <bsmntbombdood> in haskell you would have to deal with all the horrid types 23:31:46 <fax> (<p> thing " " (<i> name) " not found") 23:32:48 <ihope> What's this about horrid types? 23:33:01 <fax> haskell's type system is great fun :p 23:33:13 <fax> and you can use it to code for you 23:33:39 <ehird`> haskell should have a subtype of (x -> y) -- "Halts"! 23:34:16 <ihope> I think that would sort of ruin the allness of forall a. a. 23:34:22 <ehird`> YEAH WELL =( 23:34:31 <ehird`> hmm 23:34:45 <ehird`> "Halts" doesn't fall prey to the p(p) problem does it? 23:34:56 <ehird`> where p = if x halts loop forever else halt 23:34:59 <ehird`> err 23:35:02 <ehird`> if x given itself as input 23:35:09 <ehird`> if its a typeclass... 23:35:53 <SimonRC> here is Text.Html in use: http://www.willamette.edu/~fruehr/454/code/Webby.hs 23:36:16 <ehird`> meh 23:36:19 <ehird`> i don't like it that much 23:36:41 <SimonRC> It is good for programattic generation 23:36:50 <ehird`> ah, true 23:37:17 <ehird`> but a lot of those programmatic cases could be solved with a templating language ;) 23:37:20 <fax> hmm 23:37:21 <fax> lambda `beside` (haskell `above` purely) 23:37:24 <fax> that's cool 23:37:30 <ehird`> but some of them probably need it yeah 23:40:18 <SimonRC> this would look nicer if they had actually used the HTML typeclass properly http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~pls/repos/lambdaFeed/HTML.hs 23:40:24 <SimonRC> or indeed at all 23:40:52 <ehird`> looks fine to me? 23:42:35 <SimonRC> imageToHTML, itemToHTML, and enclosureToHtml should all have been methods of toHtml instead 23:45:20 <SimonRC> making Image, Item, and Enclosure instances of HTML 23:55:39 -!- fax has quit. 2007-09-12: 00:02:56 -!- ehird` has quit. 00:04:32 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 00:04:34 <RodgerTheGreat> howdy, folks 00:06:06 <ihope> Ello. 00:06:25 <RodgerTheGreat> hey, ihope 00:11:36 <SimonRC> hello.jpg 00:11:58 <RodgerTheGreat> sick fucker 00:13:47 <SimonRC> *cough* 00:14:42 <SimonRC> maybe it is funnier on bash 00:15:59 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, usually is 00:22:29 * pikhq returneth 00:22:46 <RodgerTheGreat> wb, pikhq 00:32:34 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 01:09:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 01:25:27 <bsmntbombdood> "hfs" 01:25:47 <ihope> HFS? 01:25:49 <ihope> Or hfs? 01:27:34 <SimonRC> "HFs"? 01:27:45 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/usr.bin/sed/TEST/math.sed 01:28:16 <bsmntbombdood> makes me want to learn more sed 01:29:05 * SimonRC wonders where th sokoban in sed got to 01:29:51 <SimonRC> and there is a nearly-full dc written in sed 01:29:53 <bsmntbombdood> there's also 4-tower hanoi in that directory 01:29:57 <bsmntbombdood> O.o 01:29:59 <bsmntbombdood> that's awesome 01:32:09 <bsmntbombdood> sed in dc would be cooler 01:32:16 <bsmntbombdood> but i don't think it can be done 01:32:36 <SimonRC> hmm 01:32:44 <SimonRC> dc lacks a "drop2 command 01:32:48 <SimonRC> but apart from that... 01:32:53 <SimonRC> *"drop" 01:32:57 <bsmntbombdood> no, it has one 01:33:31 <SimonRC> what? 01:33:32 <pikhq> "n". 01:33:44 <bsmntbombdood> Zd<r 01:33:56 <pikhq> Removes an item from the stack and outputs it without a newline. 01:34:04 <pikhq> (why no newline is beyond me) 01:34:21 <ihope> So that you can have no newline? 01:34:30 <bsmntbombdood> yeah... 01:34:39 <bsmntbombdood> it's easy to add a newline, hard to take away one 01:36:00 <ihope> Ooh! Maybe I'll slightly revamp my parser language and call it "Cetacea". 01:39:41 <bsmntbombdood> oooh, i think sed could actually be implemented in dc 01:39:55 <bsmntbombdood> by storing strings as lists of numbers instead of the builtin strings 01:41:02 <pikhq> Of *course* sed could be implemented in dc. 01:41:12 <pikhq> At least, GNU dc is Turing complete. . . 01:41:49 <bsmntbombdood> all dc are turing complete 01:42:57 <pikhq> Not necessarily. 01:43:07 <bsmntbombdood> dc even has 128 tapes and an extra stack, so it's 128.5 times more powerful than a turing machine!! 01:43:17 <bsmntbombdood> how not necessarily? 01:43:29 <pikhq> A simple dc is merely a push-down automaton. 01:43:56 <bsmntbombdood> no 01:45:46 <bsmntbombdood> dc as defined in dc(1) all the way back in 1965 01:45:52 <pikhq> Ah. 01:46:42 <pikhq> Could you find said man page? 01:47:09 <bsmntbombdood> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/7thEdMan/vol2/dc 01:50:25 <SimonRC> zzzzzzzz 02:02:53 <GregorR> Clearly SimonRC is BORED by dc. 02:02:55 <GregorR> What a jerk. 02:03:51 <bsmntbombdood> bored by dc??!??! 02:03:58 <bsmntbombdood> dc is like my favorite language ever 02:37:52 <lament> i always got confused about why there's both dc and bc 02:37:56 <lament> and as a result, learned neither. 02:43:42 -!- puzzlet has quit (Client Quit). 02:51:38 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:52:08 -!- puzzlet has quit (Client Quit). 02:58:32 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:02:44 -!- puzzlet has quit (Client Quit). 03:04:09 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:17:37 <pikhq> lament: Traditionally, dc was an RPN calculator, and bc was an infix frontend for the same. 03:17:40 <bsmntbombdood> lament dc belongs in #esoteric, bc not 03:17:55 <pikhq> In GNU, they're just different programs in coreutils. 03:18:04 <bsmntbombdood> bc compiles to dc 03:18:17 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: GNU's implementation doesn't. 03:18:39 <bsmntbombdood> bc also has silly things like functions, variables, and structured loops 03:19:07 <pikhq> "It is not implemented in the traditional way using 'dc'." -- bc.info 03:19:14 <bsmntbombdood> ok 03:19:28 <pikhq> . . . It has a bytecode compiler?!? 03:19:41 <pikhq> Seems a bit overdone for a comparatively simple program. 03:20:19 <bsmntbombdood> openbsd's bc is written in yacc 03:20:31 <pikhq> A whole compiler can't be done in Yacc. 03:21:13 <bsmntbombdood> depends where you think yacc ends 03:21:15 <pikhq> Although it may *use* Yacc to parse, as I imagine GNU bc does. . . 03:21:23 <pikhq> The moment you start using stuff in Flex. ;) 03:21:47 <bsmntbombdood> openbsd bc uses lex too 03:22:32 <bsmntbombdood> but lex is pretty insignificant compared to yacc 03:23:16 <bsmntbombdood> and yacc can't be used without writing the actions in C, so nothing can be strictly completely written in yacc 03:24:09 <pikhq> And since Yacc is a *parser generator*, even if you could, it'd not actually get any compilation done. 03:24:32 <bsmntbombdood> huh? 03:25:25 <pikhq> Yacc only generates a parser. . . 03:25:52 <pikhq> That's not all that's in a compiler. 03:26:10 <pikhq> You neglect this funny thing called "code generation". 03:26:10 <bsmntbombdood> the parser doesn't need to be sepperate from the code generator 03:26:17 <pikhq> It is with yacc. . . 03:26:21 <bsmntbombdood> no... 03:26:22 <pikhq> (last I checked) 03:27:10 <bsmntbombdood> yacc doesn't make a parse tree for you 03:39:22 * pikhq decides to learn Yacc 03:39:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't understand the advantage to yacc at all in comparison with writing the parser by hand- parsing isn't one of the difficult aspects of writing a compiler at all 03:40:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I suppose it could *become* useful with arbitrarily complex grammars, but you'd have something hideous by the time you hit the break even point, I think. 03:41:21 <pikhq> *cough* C *cough* 03:41:31 <RodgerTheGreat> case in point 03:42:08 <bsmntbombdood> parsers are hard 03:42:34 <RodgerTheGreat> what *about* parsers are hard? 03:43:48 <bsmntbombdood> the parsing 03:45:49 <RodgerTheGreat> tokenization is straightforward, relying primarily on defining patterns that determine certain types of tokens and scanning forward, with some minor exceptions for nesting. Building parse trees is basically just error-checking and order of operations. 03:50:19 <RodgerTheGreat> there are a lot of aspects of compiler design and implementation that are really difficult (especially when the language doesn't help), but I really can't find anything in parsing that can hold a candle to the other stuff. 03:53:01 <pikhq> Realise that I wrote a compiler without knowing how to do a parser. ;) 03:54:33 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: that's my point exactly- it's more or less trivial 03:55:16 <RodgerTheGreat> if an average hacker can reinvent something without undue difficulty, it's trivial. 03:55:50 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: No, I mean "I didn't even do a parser". 03:56:04 <pikhq> My "parser" in PEBBLE is Tcl's source command. 03:56:10 <RodgerTheGreat> lol 03:56:22 <RodgerTheGreat> brilliant 03:56:34 <pikhq> One must admit, it works pretty well. 03:57:45 <pikhq> int c = getchar (); 03:58:00 <pikhq> Out of *immense* curiosity, how could that involve an invalid lvalue? 03:58:46 <RodgerTheGreat> hm 04:05:21 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: because your compiler is expressing its displeasure at your use of spaces 04:05:56 <RodgerTheGreat> that is an unusual way to apply whitespace to a function call 04:06:28 <pikhq> Sorry; that's the GNU indentation standard; kinda start thinking in it when I start flipping through GNU manuals. 04:06:50 <bsmntbombdood> gnu couldn't possible request spacing like that 04:07:17 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_coding_standards 04:07:19 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm gonna have to side with bsmntbombdood with this one 04:07:57 <RodgerTheGreat> christ, that's like a laundry list of all the coding style points I have distaste for 04:08:22 <bsmntbombdood> the two-space-bracket-two-space thing is annoying 04:08:36 <RodgerTheGreat> spaces-as-tabs, spaces before function parameter blocks, /* oneliner comments like this */ 04:09:11 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: yeah- wtf? 04:09:14 <bsmntbombdood> what's wrong with the comments? 04:09:26 <RodgerTheGreat> well, actually, I'll retract that one 04:09:50 <RodgerTheGreat> // comments should always be used for oneliners, but if I recall, ANSI C lacks those. 04:10:09 <bsmntbombdood> you recall correctly 04:10:20 <pikhq> *Modern* ANSI C has it; GNU tries to maintain some level of backwards compatibility with older standards and K&R C. 04:10:35 <bsmntbombdood> C99 has the C++ style i think 04:10:45 <bsmntbombdood> not C89 04:10:48 * pikhq nods 04:11:17 <RodgerTheGreat> but yes, that indentation style causes me great pain. 04:14:43 <bsmntbombdood> http://pastebin.ca/693143 <--- my way 04:16:42 <bsmntbombdood> arrgh, s/while (/while(/ and s/strcmp (/strcmp(/ 04:16:57 <RodgerTheGreat> hm 04:18:25 <RodgerTheGreat> different prog, but I think this code represents my coding style pretty well: http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1189566634.html 04:19:31 <bsmntbombdood> that's not C!111123 04:20:12 <RodgerTheGreat> bitch, bitch, moan, moan 04:22:15 <RodgerTheGreat> all curly-bracket languages are equal when it comes to coding style. 04:54:23 * pikhq has done his first program via Yacc & Flex. . . 05:16:15 <lament> {} {} {} {} {} {} {} 05:16:24 <lament> {} {} {} {} {} {} 05:16:32 <lament> {} {} {} {} {} {} 05:16:42 <lament> ^-- a sample program in a curly-bracket language 05:17:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:20:33 <pikhq> LMAO 05:35:25 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:09:56 -!- sebbu has joined. 07:22:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:29:56 <lament> []{} 07:29:58 <lament> []{}[] 07:30:00 <lament> {}[] 07:30:07 <lament> [][][][][][][] 07:30:10 <lament> [][][][][][] 07:30:11 <lament> [][][][][][][] 07:30:13 <lament> [][][][][][] 07:30:14 <lament> [][][][][][][] 07:30:17 <lament> [][][][][][] 07:30:29 <lament> [][][][][][][] 07:30:33 <lament> pink floyd the wall 07:42:34 -!- pikhq has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:21:50 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:22:37 -!- pikhq has joined. 09:01:43 -!- RedDak has joined. 09:31:22 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:40:33 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 11:24:19 -!- ehird` has joined. 11:25:34 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit). 11:41:08 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:47:51 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 11:56:39 -!- ehird`_ has joined. 12:05:48 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit ("using sirc version 2.211"). 12:07:16 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:07:42 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 12:08:19 -!- ehird`_ has changed nick to ehird`. 12:13:26 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:32:53 <SimonRC> lament: w t f 12:35:22 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:41:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:41:50 <SimonRC> hi 12:48:35 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 12:59:50 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 13:01:24 * SimonRC has lunch. 13:10:12 <nooga> erm 13:21:37 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:21:54 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:31:58 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:32:43 -!- oklopol has joined. 13:50:21 <oklopol> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_instruction_minimalization <<< @ notes, doesn't "; [<,>]@[<.>@]" loop endlessly @ input? 14:19:14 -!- jix has joined. 14:36:57 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:41:01 <nooga> eat clothespins 14:48:41 <ihope> maybe eat clothespins nooga 14:48:49 <ihope> Hmm... huh? 14:51:34 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:51:45 -!- jix has joined. 15:19:12 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 15:19:44 <bsmntbombdood> a nooga is a delicacy in south mongolia 15:20:07 <ihope> Rather like calamari. 15:22:55 <bsmntbombdood> My orders say I'm not supposed to know where I'm taking this boat, so I don't. But one look at you, and I know it's gonna be hot. 15:23:01 <bsmntbombdood> I'm going 75 clicks above the Do Lung bridge. 15:23:06 <bsmntbombdood> That's Cambodia captain. 15:23:12 <bsmntbombdood> That's classified. 15:46:13 <sp3tt> I think the formatting language of my mpd client will be turing complete 15:46:24 <sp3tt> You don't need loops to be turing complete, right? 15:54:19 <oklopol> if you run it on something superturing, it can be loopless 15:55:02 <sp3tt> The interpreter is in python. 15:55:10 <oklopol> then i'd say no 15:55:17 <sp3tt> :/ 15:55:24 <sp3tt> It's a stack based language to format playlists, overkill? No 16:07:59 <ihope> I think to be Turing complete, you have to be able to translate any Turing program into that language. 16:09:11 <ihope> I'm not sure just how the resulting program has to act... 16:10:09 <ihope> I think that if the original program halts, you must be able to find that out by running the resulting program, and if the original program halts, you must *not* be able to find that it halts by running the resulting program. 16:10:55 <ihope> I'd like to see a description of this language. 16:29:14 <lament> sp3tt: loops are just something some imperative languages have. 16:29:57 <oklopol> i assumed he meant the concept of looping 16:30:11 <oklopol> and not an actual "while" etc. 16:33:16 <lament> i'm not sure in what sence does lambda calculus have "the concept of looping" 16:33:19 <lament> *sense 16:34:03 <oklopol> through an abstraction the programmer has created... 16:34:18 <oklopol> but i guess that might be a bad term for it. 16:36:10 <lament> i suppose in any language with side effects, you could define an "infinite loop" as something that performs some sequence of actions over and over again infinitely. 16:36:23 <lament> in that sense, you can have infinite loops in unlambda and haskell. 16:37:28 <lament> if your language can't do that, it's definitely not turing-complete. 16:38:37 <oklopol> hmm... so if you made unlambda return v instead everytime you're in an infinite loop, it wouldn't be turing complete? 16:38:52 <oklopol> i mean, theoretically speaking, since that's impossible to know 16:48:45 <bsmntbombdood> theoretically speaking, it's impossible 16:50:19 <SimonRC> oklopol: no, the detection system would be superturing 16:50:39 <oklopol> ...orly 16:50:59 <oklopol> no, BECAUSE the detection system would be superturing? 16:51:03 <oklopol> is that what you meant? 16:51:11 <oklopol> oh 16:51:26 <oklopol> hmm... 16:52:02 <oklopol> indeed, that language would naturally be superturing 16:52:12 <SimonRC> I was responding to "16:38:01 < oklopol> hmm... so if you" .... "it wouldn't be turing complete?" 16:53:22 <oklopol> because lament said, i think, that a language can't be turing complete if it can't loop infinitely 16:53:59 <oklopol> but i guess it can only either be less than tc, or superturing, if it does that 16:54:07 <oklopol> so he was right 17:06:02 * bsmntbombdood builds a halting oracle 17:10:20 <ehird`> 3 17:11:25 <ehird`> sp3tt: mpd client.... commandline? qt? 17:19:14 <bsmntbombdood> baldsfkajsdlkfj!!KE@EN: 17:19:23 <bsmntbombdood> my geography class sucks 17:19:47 <bsmntbombdood> what's a major global problem facing our planet as we move into the 21st ccentury 17:20:17 <g4lt-sb100> humanity, we must kill off all humanity 17:20:35 <bsmntbombdood> oh damn 17:20:41 <bsmntbombdood> that's good 17:20:47 <oklopol> g4lt-sb100 is. 17:25:18 <SimonRC> too many people 17:25:32 <SimonRC> solution: less anthopology, more apthropophagy! 17:25:44 <SimonRC> um 17:26:00 <SimonRC> * anthropology 17:26:15 <bsmntbombdood> i need a reputable source that says that if i'm going to do it 17:28:02 <g4lt-sb100> the population bomb, written in 1968, by Paul Erlich. it states we should resort to cannibalism in like three or four years from now 18:23:50 <ihope> Is there not enough food? 18:24:13 <ihope> How is overpopulation a problem? 18:25:07 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: is that a question for your geography class? 18:36:54 * SimonRC eats dinner. 18:37:01 <ehird`> ihope: what do you mean, how is overpopulation a problem 18:37:23 <ihope> Is it a problem? 18:53:12 -!- GregorR has changed nick to behypercubed. 18:56:55 -!- behypercubed has changed nick to _D6Gregor1RFeZi. 19:41:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:13:13 -!- cherez has joined. 21:35:04 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:49:56 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 22:00:12 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:08:41 <bsmntbombdood> ihope: yeah 22:10:46 <oerjan> no! that cannot be! no way! 22:10:56 <ihope> So how is it a problem? 22:11:12 <bsmntbombdood> ? 22:20:24 <bsmntbombdood> it's a problem because i have to answer it? 22:21:02 * ihope shrugs 23:00:54 -!- Tritonio has joined. 23:16:25 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:19:41 -!- Tritonio has joined. 23:21:08 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:22:09 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2007-09-13: 00:06:40 -!- cherez has quit ("Leaving."). 00:20:36 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 00:27:33 -!- ehird` has quit. 01:18:53 -!- ihope has joined. 02:02:14 <bsmntbombdood> mercury delay lines! 02:03:05 * ihope delays bsmntbombdood's mercury lines 02:04:27 * oerjan is disappointed this isn't about a new invention in the Mercury language 02:05:14 <oerjan> although i guess it _could_ have been about astrology 02:06:36 <ihope> Mercury is a language? 02:06:46 <ihope> (I thought it was about the metal!) 02:07:05 <oerjan> well it was, sort of 02:07:11 <bsmntbombdood> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_%28programming_language%29 02:11:27 <ihope> "Mercury is a functional logic programming language geared towards real-world applications." 02:11:38 <ihope> I guess there are programming languages geared toward other applications. 02:11:42 <ihope> (Surprise, surprise!) 02:11:46 <bsmntbombdood> like haskell! 02:12:16 <bsmntbombdood> the real world is imperative 02:12:29 <ihope> The real world is massively parallel. 02:12:40 <ihope> I don't think that qualifies as "imperative". 02:13:48 <ihope> Here, have a couple more non-geared-toward-real-world programming languages: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Language_list 02:14:46 <pikhq> Most programs used in the real world are imperative, however. 02:14:49 <oerjan> haskell has always had real world applications as one of its goals 02:15:02 <pikhq> (and, of course, in languages badly suited towards parallel processing) 02:17:30 <ihope> We really need to better exploit all this parallelness. 02:19:35 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 02:20:04 <pikhq> We're at a point where 8 independent processors would cost you a good $400, after all. 02:20:30 <pikhq> (IIRC, that would be the pricing for 2 Barcelona Opterons with 4 cores each) ;) 02:24:07 <bsmntbombdood> i think you are vastly underestimating the cost of opterons 02:24:44 <bsmntbombdood> O.o or not 02:25:05 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819105038 02:25:45 <pikhq> It's the 4/8-way Opterons that are pricy. 02:26:39 <pikhq> And even then, they come in at about the price range of Intel's higher-priced desktop chips. 02:27:01 <bsmntbombdood> newegg's most expensive opteron is $1200 02:27:02 <pikhq> The Intel server chips are just gouging. 02:27:45 <pikhq> Most expensive Xeon is $1,3990. 02:27:53 <pikhq> Remove a nine. 03:15:17 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:36:55 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:16:32 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 04:28:14 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out). 04:33:27 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> /\(([^\/]*\/([^\\\/]*\\.)*[^\\\/]*\/)*[^\/]*\)/ 04:35:29 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Damn, another fix: /\(([^\/\)]*\/([^\\\/]*\\.)*[^\\\/]*\/)*[^\/\)]*\)/ 04:38:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 04:43:04 <bsmntbombdood> gregorr is mangled! 04:46:14 <pikhq> And soon he'll mangle you more. 04:46:55 <bsmntbombdood> ok! 04:47:50 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> http://www.codu.org/plof/plof3.txt 04:51:04 <pikhq> Jebus. 04:51:08 <pikhq> That's just insane. 04:51:17 <pikhq> Can't wait to play with it. 04:51:21 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> I need an example runtime grammar, so it'll be clear that it's not as insane as you think :) 04:52:00 <bsmntbombdood> i like insane 04:52:04 <pikhq> Still insane merely for having that *accesible*. 04:53:46 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> ^^ 05:00:16 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> http://www.codu.org/plof/plof3.txt // added a bit 05:18:59 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Fine, nobody cares :P 05:20:05 <pikhq> T3h sleepy. 05:22:43 <bsmntbombdood> it's only 22:22 05:23:25 <bsmntbombdood> (yes, i waited 3 minutes so i could say 22:22) 05:23:25 -!- SEO_DUDE32 has joined. 05:24:16 <pikhq> I need to be up in 7 hours or so. 05:24:31 <pikhq> LMAO 05:32:01 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:34:17 -!- immibis has joined. 05:54:45 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Darn, Xi runs slow on a 486 :( 05:54:56 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> I guess I need a pure VGA driver, not VESA :) 05:56:00 -!- immibis has quit ("Life without danger is a waste of oxygen"). 06:34:43 -!- sp3tt has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:45:47 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> My 486 now runs 2.6 + XOrg 7.3 >:) 07:45:58 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> I had to use the VGA driver instead of VESA :( 07:46:09 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Surprisingly, VESA /did/ work at 24bpp 8-O 07:46:13 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> But it was effing slow. 07:57:00 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Sleep time. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:33:02 -!- helios24 has quit ("leaving"). 08:33:09 -!- helios24 has joined. 11:30:43 -!- ehird` has joined. 12:41:24 -!- sebbu has joined. 13:00:23 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 13:18:46 -!- sp3tt has joined. 13:19:34 -!- sp3tt_ has joined. 13:28:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:34:16 -!- sp3tt_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:14:42 -!- jix has joined. 15:25:56 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: but you didn;t say it at 22:22:22 15:32:01 -!- pikhq has quit (Connection timed out). 15:36:40 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:59:29 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:03:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:36:55 -!- oerjan has quit ("Dinner"). 17:34:54 <bsmntbombdood> SimonRC: i'm not that good 17:35:43 <g4lt-sb100> so we have another dave2 in the making? 17:36:25 <g4lt-sb100> bsmntbombdoodse just doesn't sound the same 17:37:38 <SimonRC> g4lt-sb100: ?! 17:38:01 <g4lt-sb100> another channel, some dude announces certain times 17:38:12 <bsmntbombdood> the 1337 times 17:42:20 <SimonRC> g4lt-sb100: not as good as the StriB-clock 17:42:46 <SimonRC> there is a guy called StriB, whose case changes to match the hour in binary 17:43:04 <SimonRC> strib, striB, strIb, strIB, stRib, etc 17:44:12 <SimonRC> I proposed the SiMoNC-clock that did the same thing with the minutes, but decided not to, due to fear of lynching. 17:59:00 <ehird`> seconds! 18:02:50 <SimonRC> ehird`: the IRC network would complain 18:03:18 -!- SimonRC has changed nick to SimonRC_18. 18:03:41 <SimonRC_18> bugger, too long 18:03:58 -!- SimonRC_18 has changed nick to SimonRC_20. 18:03:59 -!- SimonRC_20 has changed nick to SimonRC_22. 18:04:23 -!- SimonRC_22 has changed nick to SimonRC_45. 18:04:31 <SimonRC_45> yeah, the network blocks some of them 18:17:55 -!- importantshock has joined. 18:18:22 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has joined. 18:20:10 <ehird`> SimonRC_45: do it in binary 18:21:47 <ehird`> "sirc", it should tick 3.75 18:22:26 -!- importantshock has quit (Client Quit). 18:23:40 -!- importantshock has joined. 18:30:07 <bsmntbombdood> ~exec time.sleep((lambda x: 1 - (x - __import__("math").floor(x)))(time.time())) while True: sys.stdout(__import__("math").floor(time.time())) 18:30:07 <bsmnt_bot> SyntaxError: invalid syntax 18:30:16 <bsmntbombdood> bah? 18:31:21 -!- SEO_DUDE32 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:53:45 <ehird`> test 18:54:17 <ehird`> ~exec time.sleep( ( lambda x: 1 - (x - __import__("math").floor(x)) )( time.time() ) ); while True: sys.stdout(__import__("math").floor(time.time())) 18:54:18 <bsmnt_bot> SyntaxError: invalid syntax 18:54:31 <ehird`> ~exec time.sleep( ( lambda x: 1 - (x - __import__("math").floor(x)) )( time.time() ) ) and exec 'while True: sys.stdout(__import__("math").floor(time.time()))' 18:54:32 <bsmnt_bot> SyntaxError: invalid syntax 18:55:12 <ehird`> ~exec time.sleep((lambda x: 1 - x - __import__("math").floor(x))(time.time())); while True: sys.stdout(__import__("math").floor(time.time())) 18:55:13 <bsmnt_bot> SyntaxError: invalid syntax 18:55:14 <ehird`> ~exec time.sleep((lambda x: 1 - x - __import__("math").floor(x))(time.time())); while True: sys.stdout(__import__("math").floor(time.time()))) 18:55:16 <bsmnt_bot> SyntaxError: invalid syntax 18:55:19 <ehird`> ~exec time.sleep((lambda x: 1 - x - __import__("math").floor(x))(time.time())); while True: sys.stdout(__import__("math").floor(time.time()))))))) 18:55:26 <ehird`> ~exec time.sleep((lambda x: 1 - x - __import__("math").floor(x))(time.time())); while True: sys.stdout(__import__("math").floor(time.time())) 18:55:28 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Excess Flood). 18:55:34 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 18:55:41 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: time.sleep((lambda x: 1 - x - __import__("math").floor(x))(time.time())); while True: sys.stdout(__import__("math").floor(time.time())) 18:55:54 <ehird`> ~exec while True: time.sleep((lambda x: 1 - x - __import__("math").floor(x))(time.time())); sys.stdout(__import__("math").floor(time.time())) 18:55:54 <bsmnt_bot> IOError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument 18:56:01 <ehird`> ~exec while True: time.sleep((lambda x: 1 - x - __import__("math").floor(x))(time.time())); sys.stdout(str(__import__("math").floor(time.time()))) 18:56:01 <bsmnt_bot> IOError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument 18:56:06 <ehird`> :/ 18:56:10 <ehird`> ~exec while True: time.sleep((lambda x: 1 - x - __import__("math").floor(x))(time.time())); sys.stdout.write(str(__import__("math").floor(time.time()))) 18:56:10 <bsmnt_bot> IOError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument 19:02:40 <importantshock> that's what she said! 19:10:32 * SimonRC_45 goes 19:10:37 -!- SimonRC_45 has changed nick to SimonRC. 19:10:39 * SimonRC goes 19:40:35 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:59:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 20:08:36 -!- RedDak has joined. 21:17:34 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:27:11 -!- importantshock has quit. 21:46:15 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:16:38 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:20:46 -!- importantshock has joined. 22:26:48 -!- importantshock has quit ("Meh."). 23:10:19 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:18:49 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:54:59 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )"). 23:57:31 -!- oklopol has joined. 2007-09-14: 00:03:49 <Sgeo> re oklopol 00:03:53 <Sgeo> What you missed: 00:03:58 <Sgeo> <EOF> 00:04:44 <oklopol> err... re 00:04:44 <oklopol> . 00:05:13 <oklopol> did i miss something coool? 00:06:06 <Sgeo> Nothing at all 00:06:11 <Sgeo> That's why I said <EOF> 00:06:32 <oklopol> hmm 00:06:49 <oklopol> i completely missed "(Sgeo) What you missed:" this line 00:07:07 <oklopol> which is quite a feat considering there were 3 lines on the screen... 00:07:33 <oerjan> so in fact Sgeo was mistaken about what you missed :D 00:08:01 <oklopol> heh :P 00:13:55 -!- importantshock has joined. 00:14:19 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> "Right. So I'm hemophallic." "... did you just say hemo-phallic?" "Uh ... yes? I'll admit it, I have blood in my penis right now." 00:17:19 <oerjan> that does not sound like the best pickup line ever 00:20:33 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> I'm totally using that as a pickup line next time I get the chance :P 00:24:14 <oerjan> > 4 .&. 5 00:27:50 <oklopol> :P 00:35:15 -!- ehird` has quit. 00:38:25 <bsmntbombdood> GODDAMN MY INTERNETS 00:44:29 -!- importantshock has quit ("Meh."). 01:21:17 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 02:33:20 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has joined. 03:21:06 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:32:48 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:33:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:34:17 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has joined. 04:04:22 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 04:54:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 05:31:44 -!- rutlov has joined. 05:38:44 -!- rutlov has left (?). 05:54:09 -!- immibis has joined. 06:11:30 -!- PerfectElu has joined. 06:13:49 -!- PerfectElu has left (?). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:19:46 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 08:47:25 -!- RedDak has joined. 09:07:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:12:57 -!- pikhq has joined. 09:44:59 -!- jix has joined. 10:22:00 -!- immibis has quit ("Man who run behind car get exhausted"). 11:52:33 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:05:45 -!- ehird` has joined. 12:17:19 -!- ehird`_ has joined. 12:17:58 -!- ehird`_ has quit (Client Quit). 12:17:59 -!- ehird` has quit (No route to host). 12:26:16 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:30:34 -!- ehird` has joined. 12:45:41 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:17:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:52:57 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:57:32 -!- RedDak has joined. 14:17:09 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:17:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:17:58 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:52:08 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:52:22 -!- jix has joined. 14:55:29 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:00:55 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:01:23 -!- ehird` has joined. 16:21:58 -!- ehird` has quit ("Pong timeout"). 16:22:12 -!- ehird` has joined. 16:47:39 <bsmntbombdood> damn 16:47:46 <bsmntbombdood> that was some good idling 16:48:14 <bsmntbombdood> 13 hours! 16:48:57 <oklopol> how deep was the idle? 16:49:01 <oklopol> oh 16:49:03 <oklopol> on the channel 16:49:13 <oklopol> err 16:49:17 <oklopol> i own at math 16:54:36 <puzzlet> how much? 16:55:06 <oklopol> i was 5th in the finnish national competition 16:55:26 <oklopol> that much 16:55:55 <puzzlet> that's cool 16:57:47 <bsmntbombdood> competition at what? 16:58:16 <oerjan> oklopol: does that mean you get to go to the IMO? :) 17:01:48 <oklopol> i would've gotten there prolly, but i forgot to go to a training camp that was kinda essential 17:02:03 <oerjan> oh :( 17:02:42 <oklopol> i haven't really done any math in my life, i may be clever but you do need to know a LOT of stuff to do well in the IMO 17:02:47 <oklopol> if IMO is what follows it.. 17:03:06 <oklopol> the olympics anyway 17:03:08 <oerjan> International Mathematical Olympiad 17:03:20 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure that's it 17:03:51 <oklopol> i know the guy who won it, owns me easy as hell 17:04:19 <oklopol> i'm far better at programming though, even though he's been a programmer longer than me 17:05:34 <oklopol> i've actually missed 2 math competition finals :P 17:05:53 <oklopol> the other was for ...mental calculation or whatever you call it 17:06:46 <oerjan> calculating big numbers in your head? 17:07:39 <oklopol> had to turn my calculator in for the ram to be erased, so http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p312111352.txt wrote my games on the comp :P 17:08:11 <oklopol> oerjan: the funny thing is i haven't actually learned any techniques, there just simply isn't anyone who has ANY skill in this town :| 17:08:17 <oklopol> or so i assume 17:08:28 <oklopol> because i sure as hell don't 17:09:36 <oklopol> i'm not sure why i wrote those down, prolly won't write them back on my ti-84 anyway 17:09:55 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: math, since i didn't answer, it seems 17:10:13 <oerjan> i am confused, was a calculator allowed on the competition? 17:10:30 <oklopol> err 17:10:36 <oklopol> sorry, this is unrelated :D 17:10:44 <oklopol> i have a physics exam on monday 17:10:56 <oklopol> the math competition was a loooong time ago 17:11:11 <oerjan> ic 17:11:26 <oklopol> the competition didn't require a calculator... 17:11:40 <bsmntbombdood> "oklopol shows up at elementary school math bee" 17:11:53 <oerjan> i would imagine a mental calculation one wouldn't allow one 17:12:02 <oklopol> oh 17:12:13 <oklopol> the mental calculation one was in elementary school... 17:12:21 <oklopol> i think 17:12:28 <oerjan> ah 17:12:48 <oklopol> i was also in the finals in the elementary school real math competition 17:12:57 * oerjan recalls other kids asking him to do math in his head, long ago 17:12:59 <bsmntbombdood> "turku, finland -- oklopol was seen at an elementary school's math bee, where 3rd graders answered questions such as "what is the product of 4 and 3?", and "what is the square root of 16?". 17:13:00 <oklopol> in high school was when i forgot to go 17:13:25 <oerjan> square root? advanced stuff 17:13:46 <oklopol> i remember teaching square roots to a friend @ first grade :D 17:13:49 <oklopol> he got it 17:13:54 <oklopol> easily 17:14:12 <bsmntbombdood> "the police was called and he was arrested for trespassing." 17:14:48 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: i prefer telling it my way :P 17:15:49 <bsmntbombdood> well mine is from a REPUTABLE NEWS SOURCE 17:15:58 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i'd've won the finals @ the elementary school competition, top10 was on a very small range, but the second part of the test consisted of folding paper... 17:16:02 <oklopol> i can't fold paper 17:16:06 <oerjan> ah, the National Enquirer? 17:16:21 <oerjan> or the Weekly World News? 17:16:26 <oerjan> or perhaps the Onion? 17:17:35 <oklopol> i was thinking i'd learn math this fall, would be nice to get to the finals 17:27:01 <oklopol> i should actually be doing physics right now... 17:27:18 <oklopol> but i guess i have a whole night ahead me 17:30:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("Supper"). 18:01:58 <bsmntbombdood> i has a doughnut! 18:02:13 <RodgerTheGreat> I has a stack of graded papers! 18:02:41 <bsmntbombdood> i win! 18:03:10 <RodgerTheGreat> stack of graded papers == I get paid, so I think I win 18:03:32 <RodgerTheGreat> also, it's friday, so EVERYBODY WINS! 18:03:34 <RodgerTheGreat> yay! 18:04:27 <oklopol> i don't :| 18:04:48 <RodgerTheGreat> <:/ 18:05:48 <bsmntbombdood> hmm 18:05:57 <bsmntbombdood> yay, my parents are gone all day tommorow 18:06:22 <RodgerTheGreat> fun fun fun 18:06:24 <oklopol> my parents are gone all day every day! 18:06:31 <RodgerTheGreat> hooray 18:06:46 <RodgerTheGreat> I live in a dorm room. 18:06:51 <oklopol> but my gf decided to stay home and sleep instead of coming here :P 18:09:48 <bsmntbombdood> poor oklopol, no tail today 18:09:56 <RodgerTheGreat> heh 18:10:12 <RodgerTheGreat> the internet is a lousy place to get sympathy for that type of thing. 18:10:35 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Instead, you'll get statements like this: 18:10:39 <bsmntbombdood> i've had no tail for SIXTEEN WHOLE YEARS! 18:10:43 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> oklopol's girlfriend was recaptured by the zoo. 18:10:44 <oklopol> well i know multiple girls.. 18:11:39 <oklopol> so let's not jump into conclusions 18:11:43 <oklopol> hmm 18:12:16 <oklopol> i should have a script to press enter if i forget to 18:13:54 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Yeah, I th 18:13:58 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> ink that would be a g 18:13:59 <RodgerTheGreat> that sounds like a great setup for hilarious mishaps 18:14:02 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> reat id 18:14:05 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> ea. 18:14:08 <oklopol> :D 18:14:10 <RodgerTheGreat> lol 18:14:19 <oklopol> you have a point. 18:14:24 <RodgerTheGreat> my thoughts exactly, _D6Gregor1RFeZi 18:14:29 <oklopol> onless i start using periods 18:14:38 <oklopol> so it knows whether the sentence is ready 18:14:41 <oklopol> hmm... 18:14:46 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> oklopol: YOUR GF IS ALREADY HAW 18:14:48 <oklopol> i could start using enter, though 18:14:50 <RodgerTheGreat> _D6Gregor1RFeZi: on an unrelated note, has your nick contracted cancer or something? 18:14:51 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> (terrible, terrible joke) 18:15:04 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> RodgerTheGreat: I've been mangled. 18:15:11 <RodgerTheGreat> aw, dang 18:15:17 <oklopol> _D6Gregor1RFeZi: is "haw" "here"? 18:15:25 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> No, it's "haw" 18:15:28 <oklopol> hmm 18:15:37 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> That was in response to "unless I start using periods" 18:16:19 <oklopol> hmm 18:16:43 <oklopol> period as in menstruation, was that what you were referring to? i have no idea where the joke was :P 18:17:04 <oklopol> since i don't know what "haw" is, guess i could look it up... 18:17:25 <oklopol> that didn't help 18:17:28 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> I think the joke was just too terrible to get :P 18:17:32 <oklopol> terrible jokes are usually the best 18:18:00 <RodgerTheGreat> "haw" generally acts in a similar fashion to "ha" or "heh" 18:18:14 <oklopol> hmm 18:18:38 <oklopol> "is already using periods", and then the menstruation thing? 18:18:48 <oklopol> tell me already :) 18:19:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I dunno, it seems pretty clear 18:19:57 <oklopol> yes, well, you aren't an idiot 18:20:38 <RodgerTheGreat> "unless I start using periods to know when ... [it] is ready" "YOUR GIRLFRIEND IS ALREADY. HAHAHA." 18:20:47 <RodgerTheGreat> that's about as clear as I can make it. 18:21:12 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a joke based on the same word being used to refer to a punctuation mark and menstruation. 18:21:17 <oklopol> so i was correct 18:21:23 <RodgerTheGreat> yes 18:22:00 <RodgerTheGreat> this channel never ceases to produce hilariously pedantic discussions like this, eh? 18:23:17 <oklopol> the more anal the better 18:24:17 <pikhq> What else would you expect from us? 18:27:53 <RodgerTheGreat> indeed 18:36:53 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> oklopol just left another clear opening for a terrible joke, and nobody jumped in :P 18:36:55 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> So I'll do it. 18:37:00 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> THAT'S WHAT YOUR GF SAID HAW 18:38:21 <oklopol> i thought it was already a joke :P 18:38:34 <oklopol> but i guess it needed some clearing up 18:38:40 <oklopol> to REALLY be terrible 18:38:53 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Terrible = horribly explicit. 18:39:31 <oklopol> yeah 18:40:01 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> So, I bought an old tablet PC on eBay. 18:40:04 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> It's hyper-cool. 18:40:10 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Then I took out the hard disk. 18:40:19 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> I did that by tearing the hard disk's cable entirely in two. 18:40:20 <pikhq> Why'd you want a swallowable PC? 18:42:15 <RodgerTheGreat> hm 18:42:54 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> I did indeed successfully remove the hard disk. 18:42:55 <RodgerTheGreat> _D6Gregor1RFeZi: is that what the service manual said to do, or were you taking it apart with your claws and teeth or something? 18:43:15 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> RodgerTheGreat: The hard disk was glued into the slot. I was trying to pry it open. 18:43:35 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> RodgerTheGreat: As it turns out, the feeling of peeling glue is incredibly similar to the feeling of ripping a cable. 18:43:44 <RodgerTheGreat> haha 18:44:02 <RodgerTheGreat> any reason in particular for taking out the drive? Upgrade? 18:44:16 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> It didn't come with an OS and has no peripheral disk drives. 18:44:27 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> So the only way to get an OS on there was to remove the hard disk and install it via my desktop. 18:44:38 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Which was exactly what I was anticipating doing, minus the destruction. 18:44:45 <RodgerTheGreat> and I'd imagine this process just became more complicated 18:44:54 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> A bit. 18:45:07 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> As it turns out, a new cable is more expensive than a replacement :P 18:45:18 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> + for the tablet itself 18:45:24 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> So, now I'm going to have two X-D 18:45:37 <RodgerTheGreat> haha 18:45:49 <RodgerTheGreat> can you show us a link to what the machine looks like? 18:46:02 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> http://images.google.com/images?q=fujitsu+stylistic+1200 18:46:21 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> It's a mind-blowingly sexy machine. 18:46:34 <RodgerTheGreat> that looks pretty kickass, all things considered 18:47:08 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> I'm going to put Debian+IceWM on it 8-D 18:50:59 <RodgerTheGreat> haha- great bash: "<Ubik> speaking of Jenga, it's the 1-year anniversery of 9/11 tomorrow" 19:00:20 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:00:26 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:04:33 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:11:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:12:43 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:27:12 <ehird`> _D6Gregor1RFeZi: why are you Dized? 19:42:43 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:45:03 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has joined. 19:58:41 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:01:37 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:25:02 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has joined. 20:33:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:43:01 -!- ihope has joined. 20:48:19 -!- RedDak has joined. 21:41:09 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:50:11 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has joined. 21:54:09 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:54:46 -!- Grognor has joined. 21:55:52 -!- Grognor has left (?). 22:08:45 -!- RedDak has joined. 22:38:58 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:40:05 -!- RedDak has joined. 22:44:14 -!- immibis has joined. 23:50:53 -!- ehird` has quit. 2007-09-15: 00:09:52 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:40:04 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:51:17 -!- immibis has quit ("On the other hand, you have different fingers."). 01:03:09 <bsmntbombdood> http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2007/09/the_perspex_machine_superturin.php 01:03:10 <bsmntbombdood> wtf? 01:03:22 <bsmntbombdood> it's superturing because it can be extended to hold reals? 01:03:39 <bsmntbombdood> uhh...how bout you extend a turing machine to hold a real in each cell instead of a symbol? 01:04:01 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 01:14:02 -!- immibis has joined. 01:20:29 <oerjan> well then you would have made a super-turing machine, obviously :) 01:21:50 <bsmntbombdood> what do you expect from the nullity guy 01:26:36 <pikhq> All in favor of implementing a Perspex Machine emulator on a Turing machine, in the name of proving him more wrong? 01:27:59 <pikhq> Wait. . . He argues that a Turing machine can't even *hold* a real? 01:28:14 <pikhq> It's got an infinite amount of space. It can hold an infinite amount of reals. 01:28:29 <bsmntbombdood> but it can't do anything with them 01:28:33 <oerjan> well it cannot. memory is finite at any given time. 01:29:03 <pikhq> oerjan: A universal Turing machine has infinite memory. 01:29:18 <bsmntbombdood> s/infinite/unbounded/ 01:29:22 <oerjan> no, it has infinitely _extensible_ memory 01:29:41 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> You can't process an irrational number because doing so puts you into an infinite loop. 01:29:48 <bsmntbombdood> right 01:29:52 <pikhq> Well, there is that. . . 01:30:43 <pikhq> Of course, an infinity machine could easily emulate a perspex machine. ;) 01:30:51 <pikhq> (but not the other way around. :D) 01:33:32 <pikhq> (of course, the infinity machine, unlike the perspex machine, was designed as more of a thought experiment) 01:38:38 -!- ihope_ has joined. 01:40:15 -!- immibis has changed nick to immibis[A]. 01:43:46 <ihope_> Turing machines can sort of deal with real numbers. 01:44:29 <oerjan> only countably many of them... 01:44:42 <ihope_> Yes. 01:44:55 <ihope_> Give me a real number that a Turing machine cannot handle. :-P 01:45:13 <oerjan> omega 01:45:28 <ihope_> Doesn't sound like a real number to me. 01:45:40 <ihope_> ...oh, that? 01:45:41 <g4lt-sb100> 2^.5 01:45:50 <ihope_> Chaitin's constant or whatever? 01:46:17 <oerjan> yep 01:46:48 <ihope_> g4lt-sb100: I think 2^.5 is firmly within the realm of computability. 01:47:20 <g4lt-sb100> not in polynomial time 01:47:21 <oerjan> indeed, an algebraic number 01:47:48 <oerjan> no one has mentioned polynomial time, or digits for that matter 01:52:50 <ihope_> I guess handling real numbers is sort of the same as handling sets of rational numbers. 01:53:24 -!- immibis[A] has changed nick to immibis. 01:53:29 <ihope_> That is, the sets that contain some rational numbers but not others, 01:53:31 <ihope_> Er. 01:54:39 <ihope_> That is, the bounded, non-empty, downward closed sets of rational numbers that do not have maxima. 01:55:02 <bsmntbombdood> a turing machine can't decide if two real numbers are equal 01:55:17 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out). 01:55:52 <ihope_> Well, there's no way you can even give a Turing machine any two real numbers. 01:56:50 <oerjan> my impression is that a computable real is a function which given a bound will calculate a rational that lies within that distance of the real, or an equivalent 01:57:05 -!- immibis has left (?). 01:57:06 <oerjan> formulation 01:58:13 <oerjan> say, a decreasing sequence of intervals 01:59:26 <ihope_> Or a function that compares the real number to its argument? 01:59:53 <oerjan> nope, you cannot do that because if they are equal it might not be provable 02:01:20 <oerjan> you need some slack in the questions you ask :) 02:01:32 -!- calamari has joined. 02:02:16 <oerjan> say, you could pass it two different arguments and it would answer either that it was largest than the smallest or smaller than the largest 02:02:25 <oerjan> *larger than 02:04:54 <oerjan> strangely you can also ask it for a correctly rounded printout to some number of digits - as long as you allow it to possibly give one more digit than you ask for 02:19:10 <bsmntbombdood> aren't all reals computable then? 02:19:36 <oerjan> er, the function itself should be computable 02:21:08 <oerjan> so no 02:21:22 <bsmntbombdood> ? 02:21:57 * ihope_ attempts to find something similar to irreal numbers 02:22:08 <oerjan> ? 02:22:34 <bsmntbombdood> division is closed over the reals 02:22:36 <oerjan> you mean surreal, or something else? 02:22:42 <oerjan> or irrational? 02:22:44 <bsmntbombdood> sans 0 of course 02:25:50 <oerjan> indeed 02:38:41 <ihope_> Something like surreal. 02:39:20 <ihope_> You fill in the rational numbers with the irrational numbers. You fill in the real numbers with... nothing. 02:39:56 <bsmntbombdood> complex numbers 02:40:05 <bsmntbombdood> and irrational=real 02:41:38 <oerjan> rationals are people^H^H^H^H^H^Hreals too 02:42:04 <ihope_> The imaginary numbers aren't the sort of filling-in I was thinking of. 02:42:32 <oerjan> well, the reals _are_ complete. have you looked at nonstandard analysis? 02:42:38 <ihope_> I was thinking the LUBs of sets of real numbers. These are, of course, also real numbers. 02:42:48 <ihope_> Maybe. What is it? 02:43:15 <g4lt-sb100> soylernt rationals are people, you must tell them, soylent rationals are PEOPLE 02:43:35 * pikhq just saw that movie a few days ago for the first time, BTW 02:43:39 <oerjan> you add new reals by passing to a larger model of the same axioms 02:44:51 <oerjan> using something called ultraproducts, iirc 02:45:08 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: A turing machine could actually tell you if two real numbers were not equal, though. ;) 02:45:21 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: no it couldn't 02:45:42 <bsmntbombdood> a machine to do so wouldn't always halt 02:45:42 <pikhq> (this assumes a way to store the real number is devised. . . :p) 02:45:44 <oerjan> _if_ two computable real numbers were not equal, it could tell you. 02:46:04 <bsmntbombdood> yeah 02:46:07 <oerjan> note the subtle lack of requirement to tell you if they are 02:46:07 <pikhq> Which, of course, is why I said that. 02:46:32 <bsmntbombdood> but it's not very usefull to know if two numbers are equal if you already know they are 02:52:10 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 02:52:23 -!- jix has joined. 04:12:23 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 04:22:25 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:20:55 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:22:00 -!- ehird` has joined. 05:22:41 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit). 05:33:20 -!- immibis has joined. 05:34:55 <immibis> !daemon cat bf ,[.,] 05:35:04 <EgoBot> meow 05:35:09 <EgoBot> Daemon created 05:36:36 <bsmntbombdood> meow? 05:36:50 <immibis> it's a *cat* 05:37:03 <immibis> !ps d 05:37:06 <EgoBot> 1 immibis: daemon cat bf 05:37:07 <EgoBot> 2 immibis: daemon annoyimmibis bf 05:37:09 <EgoBot> 3 immibis: bf_txtgen 05:37:12 <EgoBot> 4 immibis: ps 05:38:10 <immibis> hmm 05:38:13 <immibis> !annoyimmibis xxx 05:41:18 <EgoBot> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat ~exec self.raw"PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi"") 05:41:18 <bsmnt_bot> SyntaxError: invalid syntax 05:41:31 <EgoBot> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat ~exec self.raw\"PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi\"") 05:41:32 <bsmnt_bot> !cat ~exec self.raw"PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi" 05:41:35 <EgoBot> ~exec self.raw"PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi" 05:41:36 <bsmnt_bot> SyntaxError: invalid syntax 05:41:50 <EgoBot> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat ~exec self.raw(\"PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi\")") 05:41:50 <bsmnt_bot> !cat ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi") 05:41:54 <EgoBot> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi") 05:41:54 <bsmnt_bot> hi 05:42:06 <EgoBot> Hi 05:43:38 <ihope_> !annoyimmibis yyy 05:43:49 <ihope_> Doesn't seem to do much. 05:44:08 <immibis> it messages me 05:49:51 <ihope_> I see. 05:50:06 <immibis> "!annoyimmibis yyy" is the same as "/msg immibis yyy" except that then the message comes from EgoBot 05:50:53 <immibis> !help 05:50:56 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon 05:50:57 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl 06:08:56 <pikhq> !annoyimmibis Does this annoy people in chat, too? 06:08:59 <pikhq> Nope. 06:09:17 <immibis> [17:08] <EgoBot> Does this annoy people in chat, too? 06:09:23 <EgoBot> [17:08] <EgoBot> Does this annoy people in chat, too? 06:09:29 <immibis> !annoyimmibis are you sure? 06:09:37 <EgoBot> are you sure? 06:09:54 <pikhq> ... 06:10:01 <immibis> ok, i used !cat 06:10:08 <pikhq> !cat XD 06:10:12 <EgoBot> XD 06:10:53 <immibis> !annoyimmibis yadayadayada 06:10:56 <EgoBot> yadayadayada 06:14:02 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:19:08 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has joined. 06:21:27 -!- immibis has left (?). 07:08:26 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:11:57 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:01:36 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:17:28 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has joined. 11:29:56 -!- ehird` has joined. 11:34:31 -!- ihope_ has joined. 11:34:48 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope. 11:46:52 -!- RedDak has joined. 11:47:48 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:51:03 -!- ehird` has joined. 12:04:24 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 12:09:53 -!- jix has joined. 12:10:47 -!- ehird`_ has joined. 12:11:44 -!- ehird` has quit (No route to host). 12:46:17 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:09:20 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has joined. 14:00:09 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:36:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:39:18 -!- ehird`_ has quit (Client Quit). 14:39:24 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:39:41 -!- ehird` has joined. 14:41:40 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit). 14:41:53 -!- ehird` has joined. 14:42:30 <ehird`> anyone alive? 14:43:01 <oerjan> NO </plutonium voice> 14:43:44 <oerjan> hm, or should that be plutonian? 14:45:09 <oerjan> google says 7 to 6 for plutonian 14:47:17 <ehird`> YESNO </no> 14:47:28 <ehird`> GOD</avocado> 14:52:16 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:52:27 -!- jix has joined. 14:52:56 <oerjan> :t fromMaybe 15:26:12 -!- xlq has joined. 15:26:22 -!- xlq has left (?). 15:52:37 -!- RedDak has joined. 16:52:47 -!- skull_fcked has joined. 16:57:24 -!- skull_fcked has left (?). 17:02:14 -!- oerjan has quit ("Dinner"). 17:29:28 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 18:49:54 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("haaaaaaaaaa"). 19:05:38 * SimonRC got to the british summer school for the IMO one year 19:06:18 <pikhq> Abuh? 19:06:23 <oklopol> heh 19:06:58 <oklopol> what a bunch of geniuses we are 19:10:09 <RodgerTheGreat> ? 19:11:05 <oklopol> i was bragging about my "success" in the finnish national math thingie 19:11:13 <oklopol> the one before imo 19:12:01 <SimonRC> how successful? 19:12:32 <SimonRC> (BTW, most of my maths class has a go at the first set of tests) 19:13:41 <oklopol> i got to the finals 19:14:01 <oklopol> that was in the 9th grade 19:14:28 <oklopol> in high school i was the 5th, but i forgot to go to a ...camp or something 19:14:43 <oklopol> that was to pick out the guys for the olympics 19:15:04 <RodgerTheGreat> my highschool did something resembling what you've described, although in this case we were allowed to use a calculator. I scored in the top %5 of my school, in many cases solving problems by writing programs instead of the "correct way". Then I got to go on to the second half based on my original score, but I felt pretty SOL without my beloved TI-83+ 19:15:23 <oklopol> heh 19:15:40 <oklopol> i had about 1.5 times more points than the next one in our school 19:15:45 <oklopol> and he was the 86th iirc 19:15:49 <oklopol> in finland 19:15:49 <RodgerTheGreat> I actually got full points on one question there by writing out a TI-BASIC program that would generate the right answer and a detailed explanation of how it worked, which surprised me 19:15:52 <oklopol> yeah, small country. 19:16:18 <oklopol> that's pretty cool :P 19:16:20 <oklopol> with the basic? 19:16:25 <SimonRC> we are a lot of geniuses here... 19:16:27 <SimonRC> :-) 19:16:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I love BASIC for a number of reasons 19:17:23 <ihope> I like Haskell and wish my calculator supported it. 19:17:58 <SimonRC> ihope: use Forth. it has oomph 19:18:04 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:18:21 <ihope> On my calculator? 19:18:40 * oerjan hates autumn. 19:18:57 <oerjan> wind, rain, cold, darkness, instant depression. 19:19:08 <oklopol> uh 19:19:13 <oklopol> i love all of those 19:19:29 <SimonRC> ihope: Forth is just the thing for interactive development on small systems 19:19:43 <SimonRC> oerjan: and I like some of them 19:19:43 <ihope> Sounds good. 19:20:00 <SimonRC> You calculators is more powerful than many early Forth systems 19:20:08 -!- ehird` has quit ("Pong timeout"). 19:20:09 <SimonRC> *Your calculator 19:20:39 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: in case you don't read logs and know basic, take a look at my games TI :P http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p312111352.txt 19:20:42 <oklopol> *TI games 19:21:10 <SimonRC> oerjan: why all the colons? 19:21:13 <oklopol> pong was a 2 hour project, the worm thingie 3 hours, but i didn't know the language yet 19:21:21 <oklopol> that's how a line starts 19:21:24 <oerjan> huh? 19:21:26 <oklopol> you lazy tabber. 19:21:31 <oerjan> ah 19:22:05 <ihope> Pong. My. 19:23:07 <oklopol> hmm... gotta go read some physics, been meaning to go for about 2 days, y'all have fun here -> 19:25:36 <RodgerTheGreat> holy poop, I think I can still read this code 19:25:57 <oklopol> god i'm bad at leaving the computer. 19:26:20 <oklopol> guess the fact i don't care about physics might have something to do with it 19:26:52 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: if you find anything i could've done better, don't hesitate to tell me 19:27:08 <oklopol> i just know the basics from trial-and-error 19:27:54 <oklopol> now, retry -> 19:28:09 -!- ehird` has joined. 19:28:30 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I know a few general optimization tricks 19:28:56 <RodgerTheGreat> for example, in a function call like :Pxl-On(I,21), you can leave off the end ), and the interpreter doesn't complain 19:29:07 <RodgerTheGreat> that can shave quite a few bytes off of many programs 19:30:02 <SimonRC> ouch 19:30:28 <RodgerTheGreat> also, single if statements can be compressed from If condition:Then:statement:End into "If condition:statement" 19:30:39 <RodgerTheGreat> that only works when your conditional controls a oneliner 19:30:54 <SimonRC> oh, man, sometimes things just happen that you couldn't do deliberately... 19:31:03 <RodgerTheGreat> basically, TI-BASIC's If takes the form of "If not condition, skip next instruction" 19:31:12 <RodgerTheGreat> what's up, SimonRC? 19:31:34 <SimonRC> elsenet, there was a discussion on how to improve masturbation. Some guy comes in, and before anyone says anything, quotes the Beatles: "All you need it love". 19:31:43 <SimonRC> :-D 19:31:47 <RodgerTheGreat> lol 19:32:06 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit). 19:32:08 <SimonRC> I would put it on bash, except maybe my parents should not see it 19:32:49 * SimonRC goes to dinner 19:33:02 <RodgerTheGreat> oklopol: follow me on those tips? 19:33:09 -!- ehird` has joined. 19:33:35 <RodgerTheGreat> You could probably reduce those programs in size between 10 and 20%, and they'd execute a little faster 19:33:42 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit). 19:34:26 -!- ehird` has joined. 19:36:27 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit). 19:36:45 -!- ehird` has joined. 19:37:17 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit). 19:39:31 -!- ehird` has joined. 19:39:48 <RodgerTheGreat> ehird`: connection issues? 19:40:14 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: switching-to-a-new-client issues 19:40:33 <RodgerTheGreat> ah 19:40:35 <ehird`> specifically, getting Linkinus to realise that yes, damnit, you can connect there 19:40:42 <ehird`> and that yes, damnit, you can autoidentify me 19:41:29 <RodgerTheGreat> lol 19:41:45 <ehird`> specifically, GOD WHY DON'T YOU KNOW HOW TO USE NICKSERV LINKINUS 19:41:47 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:42:09 <oerjan> it doesn't do server passwords? 19:42:23 <ehird`> it should 19:42:56 <oerjan> then the client tells the server, which tells nickserv, iiuc 19:43:28 <ehird`> let's try that again 19:43:37 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:44:17 <oerjan> also, that doesn't work if you keep a reference to the start of [1,1..] 19:47:14 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:48:57 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: sorry, was making snacks 19:49:04 <oklopol> (soon physics1) 19:49:23 <RodgerTheGreat> 'sokay 19:50:39 <oklopol> oh, that's why the Else. 19:50:48 <oklopol> i was wondering what the fuck was up with that :D 19:50:59 <oklopol> but indeed, because you can do oneliners 19:51:05 <oklopol> ... 19:51:09 <oklopol> s/Else/Then 19:55:14 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah 19:56:09 <bsmntbombdood> SimonRC: your parents read bash? 19:57:54 -!- SEO_DUDE55 has joined. 19:59:51 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:00:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 20:02:29 -!- ehird` has joined. 20:03:10 <ehird`> maybe NOW it will work!!!!! 20:05:56 <oerjan> you're identified, at least 20:11:57 -!- ehird` has quit. 20:15:18 -!- ehird` has joined. 20:15:50 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit). 20:16:44 -!- ehird` has joined. 20:16:48 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:17:05 -!- ehird` has joined. 20:17:07 <oerjan> well, so much for that theory. 20:17:37 <ehird`> colloquy is /almost/ better than this 20:17:40 <ehird`> thats saying a lot 20:17:51 <g4lt-sb100> xchat FTW 20:17:59 <ehird`> xchat aqua is fugly 20:18:31 <g4lt-sb100> I never said it was pretty, I just said it works 20:20:16 <g4lt-sb100> remember, form FOLLOWS functionality, meaning it's about as worthless as teats on a boar hog without functionality 20:27:38 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:29:56 <ehird`> g4lt-sb100: linkinius IS very functional... its just buggy :p 20:30:01 <ehird`> thankfully i seem to have fixed all that 20:30:16 <oerjan> famous last words :D 20:31:17 * ehird` has quit (Connection reset bbbby I$&A%$"X 20:31:23 <ehird`> READ ERROR 20:38:14 -!- RedDak has joined. 20:46:06 <bsmntbombdood> hooray beer 20:54:57 <ihope> Time to implement something! 20:55:17 <bsmntbombdood> what? 20:56:15 <ihope> That parser programming language thing. I think I'll call it Redivider. 20:56:45 <bsmntbombdood> make it turing complete 20:56:49 <ihope> It is. 20:57:20 * ihope sifts through pastebin.ca posts 20:58:30 <ihope> I guess this is the most recent one: http://pastebin.ca/679421 20:59:19 <ihope> Suddenly, I feel like playing a game instead. :-P 20:59:37 <bsmntbombdood> write a game in your language 21:09:36 <ihope> Hmm, yes, I could do that. 21:11:50 <ehird`> yes! do so 21:12:34 <ihope> And here, have a weird writing system: "H. M. M-y. E. S-i c. O. U. L. D d. O t. H. A. T" 21:13:13 <ihope> Sentences are concatenated, so if I wanted to say that twice for some reason, it'd be "H. M. M-y. E. S-i c. O. U. L. D d. O t. H. A. Th. M. M-y. E. S-i c. O. U. L. D d. O t. H. A. T" 21:13:27 <ehird`> what 21:13:41 <ehird`> i don't get the system behind that writing system 21:14:25 <ihope> "fo" becomes "f. o" and vice versa; "f-o" becomes "f, o" and vice versa; "f o" remains "f o". 21:14:42 <ehird`> Hm. 21:14:50 <bsmntbombdood> ? 21:14:57 <ihope> Except capitalization is correctified. :-P 21:14:57 <ehird`> What about f.o 21:15:17 <ihope> How often is that used? 21:15:38 <ehird`> "H. M. M" 21:15:42 <ehird`> oh 21:15:43 <ehird`> I see 21:15:58 <ihope> Unless you're writing numbers, which this doesn't support :-) 21:16:14 <ehird`> HMM, yES, i cOULD dO tHAT 21:16:24 <ehird`> so why did you mess up capitalization like that 21:16:48 <ihope> This way, every "sentence" has exactly one capital letter, which is at the beginning. 21:17:30 <bsmntbombdood> no me understando 21:17:50 <oerjan> J. U. S. T t. O b. E w. E. I. R. D-I a. S. S. U. M. E 21:18:07 <ihope> ("Sentence" meaning something like "S-i c.") 21:19:07 <ihope> Y. E. S-e. X. A. C. T. L. Y 21:19:45 <ihope> Maybe it should instead be "fo" <-> "f. o"; "f o" <-> "f, o". 21:20:12 <ehird`> Hello world -> H. e. l. l. oW. o. r. l. d 21:20:12 <ehird`> Nah 21:20:14 <ehird`> Not as esoteric 21:20:32 <ihope> Not "H. E. L. L. Ow. O. R. L. D"? 21:20:50 <ihope> (Hell. Ow. O RLD?) 21:21:07 <oerjan> itym "H. E. L. L. O w. O. R. L. D" 21:21:32 <bsmntbombdood> how about "hello world"? 21:21:54 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: this is #esoteric 21:26:40 <ihope> oerjan: indeed. 21:26:44 <ihope> Or ""H. E. L. L. O, w. O. R. L. D"" 21:37:56 <ihope> (Modulo number of quotation marks.) 22:20:46 <bsmntbombdood> modulo MY TURTLE! 22:21:07 <oerjan> it's TURTLES all the way down, but we IGNORE them! 22:33:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:36:12 -!- immibis has joined. 22:42:55 -!- immibis has left (?). 22:52:16 <ehird`> TURTLES 22:58:52 <g4lt-sb100> tehre's a channel for that kind of talk, mister 23:01:12 <ehird`> TURTLES 23:01:51 <ihope> We's no sense-makers! 23:05:07 <ehird`> TURTLES 23:05:38 <ihope> TURTLES 23:05:43 <oerjan> SHARKS 23:05:50 <ihope> DOLPHINS 23:06:21 <oerjan> JELLYFISH 23:06:37 <bsmntbombdood> MOLLUSKS 23:07:38 <ehird`> TURTLES 23:07:54 <bsmntbombdood> repeat is fail 23:07:59 <ehird`> TURTLES 23:08:00 <ihope> Yeah, totally, dude. 23:08:54 <oerjan> VELOCIRAPTORS 23:10:43 <pikhq> There are three velociraptors in an equilateral triangle around you. 23:10:59 <bsmntbombdood> one has a wounded leg and runs slower than the others 23:11:21 <pikhq> Two can run at 30mph. One has a gimp leg, and runs at 15mph. Where should you head towards to live the longest? 23:11:58 <g4lt-sb100> up 23:12:09 <ihope> Does it depend on your speed? 23:12:26 <ihope> If I can run at c/2, just about any direction will do :-P 23:13:56 <ehird`> If you can run at c*2, that's just great since you can go and undo whatever you did to get yourself surrounded by velociraptors... 23:14:14 <pikhq> 10mph. 23:14:37 <g4lt-sb100> ihope, not only that, but relativistic mass means that the shouldr block you throw at one bewcomes MUCH more effective 23:15:06 <pikhq> Just run at a raptor if you hit c/2. 23:15:13 <ehird`> Veliocraptors run at exactly c. 23:15:18 <ehird`> So c/2 isn't good enough. 23:15:19 <ehird`> c*2, yep. 23:15:32 <pikhq> I doubt that we've got velociphotons. 23:15:54 <ehird`> Yes we have 23:15:56 * pikhq names a frequency the velociraptor frequency, where velociraptor waves are sent :p 23:15:58 <g4lt-sb100> ehird`, then your mass becomes aleph-2, easily enough to get the velociraptor out of the way 23:16:13 <ehird`> g4lt-sb100: Exactly! c*2 ftw. 23:16:23 * pikhq starts a velociraptor laser 23:16:24 <ehird`> pikhq: The slow baby velociraptors only run at c-1. 23:16:32 <ehird`> pikhq: But then they grow up to run at c. 23:16:34 <oerjan> you forgot one thing about relativistic mass. the velociraptor _also_ increases in mass relative to you 23:16:49 <oerjan> so a collision may not be well-advised 23:17:04 <g4lt-sb100> oerjan, only up to 23:17:07 <g4lt-sb100> oerjan, only up to c 23:17:21 <ehird`> My plan: 23:17:28 <ehird`> Run a bit at c*2. 23:17:32 <oerjan> collisions at imaginary mass may not be well-understood yet 23:17:34 <ehird`> Undo whatever you did to run into the veliocraptors. 23:17:36 <ehird`> Be happy. 23:18:03 <ihope> How do the velociraptors act, exactly? 23:18:08 <ihope> Do they always run straight at you? 23:18:19 <oklopol> would be cool if c was 50 km/h 23:18:34 <oerjan> obviously, velociraptors read your mind 23:18:35 <ehird`> oklopol: c is obviously 88 mph 23:18:36 <bsmntbombdood> they always use the optimal strategy 23:18:40 <ehird`> ;) 23:18:52 <oklopol> "uh, wasted a whole evening, well, i'll just go jogging and win back the time" 23:19:13 <ehird`> hahaha 23:19:24 <oklopol> hmm, i'm pretty sure that's flawed logic somehow, but you get the joke :P 23:19:31 <ehird`> cars would own 23:19:35 <ehird`> you could arrive somewhere before you left 23:19:41 <oklopol> nah 23:19:42 <ehird`> "Hi! I'll arrive in about 5 minutes." 23:19:45 <ehird`> "Oh hi, second me!" 23:19:50 <ehird`> Second me: "I'll arrive in about 5 minutes." 23:19:54 <oklopol> that wouldn't mean you could get faster than c :| 23:19:55 <ehird`> Second me: "Oh hi, third me!" 23:19:57 <ehird`> ................................. 23:20:04 <g4lt-sb100> oerjan, if velociraptors read my mind, they'd run AWAY 23:20:27 <ihope> If c were bigger, would the universe be bigger, too? :-P 23:20:37 <oerjan> g4lt-sb100: only if you are actually dangerous to them 23:21:21 <ehird`> Hmm 23:21:36 <g4lt-sb100> oerjan, does recasting one of the hannibal lechter movies with them as the victim count as dangerous? 23:21:44 <ehird`> What kind of processing power does it take to simulate a very small (therefore spherical, so there's no edges), relativistic universe? 23:21:49 <ehird`> I'd think more than we have today 23:21:58 <oerjan> g4lt-sb100: only if you can actually do it 23:22:00 <ehird`> Very small as in like I dunno, 10 miles :P 23:22:44 <oklopol> ehird`: you mean with the physical laws we have now? 23:22:51 <oklopol> or what kind of universe 23:22:53 <g4lt-sb100> or "three velociraptors, which one of my seven guns do I draw for maximum bloodshed?" 23:22:55 <ehird`> oklopol: Maybe a simplified model of them. But yeah. 23:23:04 <oklopol> depends on the simplification :) 23:23:08 <ehird`> oklopol: Basically a relativistic universe with maybe even basic quantum mechanics 23:23:15 <ehird`> 10 km wide, let's say, and spherical 23:23:17 <oklopol> 10 miles to simulate == exactly 10 miles of computer... 23:23:22 <ehird`> How much processing power? 23:23:28 <oerjan> g4lt-sb100: good you are prepared 23:24:03 <oklopol> but unless you have a god to put the particles in the initial state right, you will have to use a much bigger comp of course 23:24:22 <oerjan> i think without an actual quantum computer, simulating a quantum system is exponential 23:24:36 <g4lt-sb100> oklopol, that would just be a simple FSM-seeding program 23:24:38 <ehird`> so basically itd require a hell of a lot of cpu, right 23:24:59 <oklopol> g4lt-sb100: what? 23:25:16 <oklopol> seeding? 23:25:30 <g4lt-sb100> to seed your universe, they make seeding programs for FSMs now, one speecifically for life 23:26:10 <oklopol> by seeding, do you mean making the initial conditions? 23:26:28 <g4lt-sb100> yup 23:26:33 <oklopol> you need a god for that. 23:26:40 <oklopol> because of the measurement problem 23:26:46 <oklopol> the name of which i don't know 23:26:57 <g4lt-sb100> so it's truee, Conway is God 23:27:01 <oklopol> (can't know speed & location simultaneously) 23:27:13 <g4lt-sb100> heisenberg uncertainty 23:27:19 <Sgeo> argh 23:27:42 <oklopol> oh, haven't even heard that name 23:28:05 <g4lt-sb100> and that's only MEASURE. however, snsitivity to initial conditions means that if you blow one placeement, you get a vastly differig universe 23:28:54 <oklopol> not necessarily, just probably :) 23:29:14 <g4lt-sb100> and I think that the metastable universes are few and far between, you'd prolly have a dead universe in minutes in most cases 23:29:15 <oklopol> (i guess probably enough to say necessarily... i'll stop cutting hairs) 23:29:33 <oklopol> well depends on the rules of the automaton... 23:30:17 <oklopol> anyways, it'd be a bit hard to simulate the universe without using itself, since we don't know what the rule is for our physical world yet 23:30:22 <oklopol> i mean 23:30:34 <oklopol> of course you'd use it for the computation, because it's all you have :P 23:30:46 <oklopol> but like, using like a computer would be impossible 23:30:50 <oklopol> because we don't know the rule 23:31:19 <oklopol> well i guess anderson knows 23:31:45 <oklopol> i'm thinking it has something to do with nullity 23:32:08 <bsmntbombdood> aaaaagh 23:32:14 <bsmntbombdood> not nullity 23:32:16 <g4lt-sb100> yes, rule 1: NULLITY DOESN'T WORK, YOU MORON 23:32:23 <bsmntbombdood> that guy's a freak 23:33:06 <oklopol> infidels 23:33:50 <g4lt-sb100> yeah, so? 23:34:16 <oklopol> do not ruin my punchlines! 23:34:34 <oklopol> quick poll: atheists raise their hands! 23:34:37 <oklopol> o/ 23:34:48 <oklopol> (we have too little random polls here...) 23:34:57 * ehird` raises hand 23:35:26 <oklopol> (believers can lower their hands so we don't confuse them with idlers :)) 23:36:10 * bsmntbombdood believes in the god esoteric 23:36:52 * Sgeo raises hand 23:37:39 * oklopol raises verbal hand too 23:38:13 <oklopol> gotta go do physics, god that's boring shit -> 23:40:30 * Sgeo should work on PSOX :/ 23:52:11 * ihope waves 2007-09-16: 00:02:43 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:04:00 -!- ehird` has quit. 00:42:44 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:14:24 * jix raises hand too 01:20:13 <bsmntbombdood> someone's late 01:23:14 <jix> can't watch 15 channels for random polls at the same time :/ 01:23:42 <jix> i think i'm an atheist for the same reason a lot of people are christian.... 01:24:41 <ihope> You're afraid that if you believe in Jesus, you'll go to Hell? 01:24:56 <jix> no my parents are atheists.... 01:25:01 <ihope> Ah.\ 01:28:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Speedhack status: finished the widescreen rule ;D"). 01:38:13 -!- azories has joined. 01:47:24 <azories> amm http://ip-adress.com - http://whatismyip.com - http://www.iplobster.com - ipchick.com and so on = any one can explain why the dumb utilizers dont use ipconfig ? 01:47:27 -!- azories has left (?). 01:48:22 <g4lt-sb100> god, azories again? 02:02:30 <ihope> azories has been here and done that before? 02:02:45 <ihope> Perhaps you should call on lament for a ban? 02:03:10 <oerjan> was in #haskell too 02:03:36 <oerjan> probably banned from entire freenode by now 02:04:11 <ihope> Want to ask a staffer if a k-line has been issued? 02:05:14 <oerjan> you would think they would have some way of noticing someone hopping channels like that 02:06:07 <ihope> Like denny, rob, njan, scp, alindeman, SeJo, denny^AFK, PhilKC, SportChick, RichiH, notabot, quux, JamesOff, dmwaters, Matt, nalioth, tomaw|phone, Madkiss, tomaw, jenda, Stx, weasel, LoRez, seanw, christel, cdlu, kloeri... 02:06:30 <bsmntbombdood> thank you for listing a bunch of staffers! 02:06:34 <ihope> You're welcome. 02:06:41 <ihope> What, I missed one? 02:06:59 <bsmntbombdood> i have to get my horse BRB 02:18:23 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 02:21:56 <bsmntbombdood> BACK 02:45:19 <g4lt-sb100> ihope, I qalready did, BTW, azor 02:45:32 <g4lt-sb100> ies left before they could get a kline, but there's one waiting for them 03:01:13 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:07:03 -!- ihope_ has joined. 03:24:20 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out). 04:07:10 -!- g4lt-sb100 has changed nick to g4lt-mordant. 04:33:03 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 04:33:34 -!- ihope_ has quit (Connection timed out). 04:53:03 -!- rutlov has joined. 04:56:03 -!- rutlov has left (?). 07:22:32 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:27:16 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:43:15 -!- RedDak has joined. 11:56:08 -!- jix has joined. 12:12:18 -!- Figs has joined. 12:12:21 <Figs> hey guys 12:12:24 <Figs> I need help. 12:13:05 <oklopol> sounds serious 12:13:14 <Figs> I'm working on my parser system, and I've realized that I can build sequences that are allowed to do _anything_... 12:13:32 <Figs> as long as whatever actions they take can be "unwound" 12:13:58 <oklopol> _anything_, like make me coffee? 12:14:11 <oklopol> because i wouldn't mind, tbh. 12:14:14 <Figs> as long as you provide a procedure for unmaking coffee 12:14:47 <Figs> my reasoning being that I could have 12:14:49 <Figs> a >> a >> a 12:14:59 <Figs> where a is either "a", "b", or "c" 12:15:01 <Figs> but 12:15:07 <Figs> each can only be used once 12:16:33 <Figs> I don't know... is this a really awful idea? 12:24:26 <oklopol> i don't see what you mean :\ 12:25:13 <Figs> so like, "abc", "bca", etc, but not "bbc" 12:25:49 <Figs> using the "a" parser would have a side effect 12:26:27 <Figs> so say that the first a-parser found "b" 12:26:44 <Figs> it would behind the scenes say that "b is no longer allowed" 12:27:09 <oklopol> that's a bit rare requirement... 12:27:20 <Figs> it's not, really, if you turn it around 12:27:22 <oklopol> you could have a set combiner separately.. 12:27:25 <oklopol> hmm? 12:27:42 <Figs> defintions >> statements_using_defined_variables 12:28:24 <Figs> which would fail if an undefined variable is used 12:28:38 <Figs> (>> means "followed by" in my notation) 12:29:48 <oklopol> hmm... 12:29:49 <Figs> or is this a really awful idea? 12:30:00 <Figs> it can also be used for type checking, I think 12:30:11 <oklopol> i'm sorry but i still don't get it :P 12:30:22 <Figs> :falls over: 12:30:26 <oklopol> :D 12:30:29 <oklopol> i just woke up! 12:30:52 <oklopol> i don't get "definitions" there 12:31:00 <Figs> int a,b,c; 12:31:09 <oklopol> :| 12:31:12 <Figs> I should have said declarations 12:31:12 <oklopol> err.. okei 12:31:24 <Figs> int a; a = 6; would be ok 12:31:31 <oklopol> so.. int a,b,d; >> int c,e; >> int f; ? 12:31:33 <Figs> int a; b = 144; 12:31:35 <oklopol> that's not c++ 12:31:48 <Figs> ???? 12:31:49 <oklopol> oh 12:32:08 <oklopol> a >> a >> a <<< i thought this was your notation for your parser 12:32:14 <Figs> it is 12:32:20 <oklopol> weel yeah 12:32:23 <oklopol> but 12:32:23 <oklopol> defintions >> statements_using_defined_variables 12:32:30 <oklopol> in there it's not, in turn? 12:32:30 <Figs> is the same 12:32:36 <oklopol> okay... so 12:32:42 <oklopol> int a,b,c; >> a+b 12:32:50 <oklopol> definitions >> statements... 12:32:56 <Figs> something like that 12:32:59 <Figs> just as an example 12:33:04 <oklopol> but... that's not c++ 12:33:14 <Figs> I don't think you get what I mean 12:33:19 <Figs> parser p = a >> b; 12:33:24 <Figs> is how I'd write it in C++ 12:33:31 <oklopol> well yeah, i know that 12:33:33 <Figs> p.match(somestring); 12:33:45 <oklopol> but then you say you are all the time referring to >> as the c++ operator >> 12:33:51 <Figs> say somestring = "int a; a = 6;" 12:33:53 <oklopol> and then using it non syntactically 12:34:19 <Figs> >> is an overloaded operator, silly :P 12:34:24 <Figs> >> means followed by 12:34:24 <oklopol> well yes 12:34:31 <oklopol> but you can't do int a,b,c; >> a+b 12:34:33 <oklopol> or can you? 12:34:39 <oklopol> i didn't know it can be used unary 12:34:43 <oklopol> actually 12:34:44 <Figs> you don't write the >> in the string you're parsing 12:34:47 <Figs> :P 12:34:47 <oklopol> i know it can't 12:34:56 <Figs> "int a,b,c; a = 6;" 12:34:59 <Figs> would be your string 12:35:07 <oklopol> yes, but that's not defintions >> statements_using_defined_variables 12:35:11 <Figs> it is 12:35:14 <oklopol> no 12:35:17 <oklopol> there's no >> 12:35:32 <Figs> statements = "int " >> variable name >> ";" 12:35:41 <Figs> (for example) 12:35:45 <Figs> hold on a sec 12:35:47 <oklopol> okay now i got it. 12:35:50 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/5x7Kng74.html 12:35:57 <oklopol> you should be more explicit @ your quoting 12:36:17 <Figs> ... >.> 12:36:24 <oklopol> well, actually 12:36:30 <oklopol> (14:31:38) (oklopol) int a,b,c; >> a+b 12:36:33 <oklopol> (14:31:53) (Figs) something like that 12:36:33 <oklopol> (14:31:56) (Figs) just as an example 12:36:36 <oklopol> i was kinda wtf. 12:36:49 <oklopol> ut you assumed i meant "int a,b,c;" >> "a+b"? 12:36:51 <oklopol> *but 12:36:55 -!- ehird` has joined. 12:37:01 <Figs> I think so 12:37:04 <oklopol> okay. 12:37:08 <oklopol> that clears up a lot 12:37:11 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit). 12:37:53 * Figs doesn't see where that was 12:38:16 <Figs> ah 12:38:19 <oklopol> 14:33, but you have a different itme 12:38:20 <Figs> your clock is way off mine 12:38:21 <oklopol> *time 12:38:27 <Figs> (I have at 32:13) 12:39:14 <Figs> I think I was talking about something else 12:39:26 * Figs isn't sure 12:39:36 <Figs> meta-analysis @ 4 am is hard :P 12:39:55 <Figs> in any case I did not mean that "int a,b,c; >> 1+2" would make sense at all 12:40:04 <Figs> sorry :P 12:40:18 <oklopol> i still don't get the "type checking" thing or why a term would only use each subterm once... 12:40:35 <oklopol> your parser there could be broken if so. 12:40:49 <oklopol> because the dog could never chase the cat. 12:40:59 <oklopol> only another cat.. 12:42:17 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/aQO40e47.html 12:42:31 <Figs> oklopol, that's just an example of my notation 12:42:35 <Figs> not of type checking 12:42:46 <Figs> this is like that a/b/c thing 12:42:52 <Figs> in really pseudo code 12:43:26 <Figs> if it's a success, then pull it out of allowed numbers 12:43:30 <Figs> I forgot to do that :P 12:43:39 <Figs> I shouldn't be programming so late at night >.< 12:43:46 <Figs> but it's the only way I ever get anything done 12:44:27 <Figs> the idea being that I could say something like 12:45:04 <Figs> f(T x); and then if I do f(6) and T was string, it'd fail. 12:45:21 <Figs> where the information about f is stored somewhere else 12:45:29 <Figs> (outside the main parser) 12:45:45 <Figs> the reason things need to be undone is that something like 12:45:50 <Figs> "time flies like an arrow" 12:45:56 <Figs> can be interpreted in many ways 12:46:02 <Figs> (to give an example in english) 12:46:49 <Figs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_language_processing#Concrete_problems (For example) 12:46:59 <Figs> my prime objective isn't NLP, but 12:47:12 <Figs> the same types of problems can occur in things like 12:47:23 <Figs> *a >> "abc" 12:47:28 <Figs> so say I give "aabc" 12:47:41 <Figs> it'd say, ok, *a is any number of 'a's... so ah! "aa" ok... 12:47:53 <Figs> now let's see, we have "bc" left... can I find an "abc'? no... 12:48:02 <Figs> oh wait, shit, let's go back... 12:48:09 <Figs> "a" is also acceptable for *a! 12:48:13 <Figs> now I have "abc" left 12:48:19 <Figs> can I match "abc" to that? 12:48:22 <Figs> Yes! Success1 12:48:24 <Figs> *! 12:48:38 * Figs wonders what his monologue count is up to... 12:49:04 <Figs> 33? 34? 12:50:14 <oklopol> well yes, you do have to unwind often 12:50:39 <Figs> right 12:52:19 <Figs> ugh. English is so fucking ambiguous... how do we ever get anything done?! 12:53:52 <oklopol> we use only simple sentences... 12:54:03 <Figs> Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana. 12:54:13 <oklopol> in english, using longer ones verry often leads to confusion 12:54:31 <oklopol> at least when talking about non trivial stuff 12:54:41 <oklopol> i've seen it happen here, even to natives 12:54:55 <Figs> So, if I told you about a legal document, and then, halfway through, I started talking about the way in which I was talking, would you be confused; are you confused yet? 12:55:18 <oklopol> umm i doubt i am :P 12:55:37 <Figs> :P 12:55:44 <Figs> that was a longer sentance :D 12:55:55 <oklopol> well yeah, but you didn't use much ambiguity. 12:55:55 <Figs> fruit flies like a banana... I have to get that on a shirt 12:56:09 <Figs> "Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana." :P 12:56:19 * Figs stops the groucho marx humor and moves on 12:56:41 <oklopol> there's a finnish poem that goes like 12:56:44 <oklopol> whoops 12:56:51 <Figs> lol? 12:56:55 <oklopol> wait 12:57:00 <oklopol> i'll write it :) 12:57:31 <oklopol> kun olet nuori, minä rakastan vain sinua / kun vanhenet, minä vain rakastan sinua / kun olet vanha, vain minä rakastan sinua 12:57:46 * Figs no spekka finnish 12:57:48 <oklopol> the placing of "vain", or "only" makes the whole meaning different 12:57:52 <oklopol> i'll translate 12:58:16 <oklopol> when you're young, i love only you / when you get older, i still love you / when you're old, only i love you 12:58:31 <oklopol> and no, that had nothing to do with anything 12:58:35 <oklopol> :) 12:58:50 <Figs> lol 12:58:56 <oklopol> just a random language quirk 12:59:50 <Figs> bwahaha -- "She got her looks from her father. He's a plastic surgeon." 12:59:54 <Figs> (Groucho Marx) 13:00:38 <oklopol> the problem is stuff like that is trivial 13:00:54 <oklopol> you can pretty much turn any sentence upside down 13:00:58 <Figs> ;) 13:01:02 <oklopol> just by finding all it's possible meaning 13:01:05 <oklopol> *meanings 13:01:23 * Figs still finds it funny. 13:01:44 <oklopol> i don't, really, too joke-y 13:01:52 <Figs> it's a joke :P 13:01:57 <oklopol> well yes 13:02:08 <Figs> A joke is a joke. Bah. :P 13:02:14 <oklopol> i mean 13:02:21 <oklopol> it's like a textbook example of a joke 13:02:30 <oklopol> easy to guess the punchline 13:02:50 <oklopol> not that i did in the 3 seconds i read it, but after you read it, it's veeeery obvious 13:02:59 <oklopol> well 13:03:05 <Figs> timing 13:03:20 <oklopol> ya 13:03:43 <oklopol> well might be fun if you'd never thought about that saying 13:03:55 <Figs> what might be fun? 13:03:57 <oklopol> hmm 13:03:59 <oklopol> that joke 13:04:37 <oklopol> if you'd never even realized " to get ones looks from someone" is a saying that actually objectifies "looks" as something that can be given 13:04:40 <oklopol> hmm 13:04:49 <oklopol> i'm not sure if that'd help. 13:05:09 <Figs> it's a very common saying in English 13:05:12 <oklopol> yeah 13:05:27 <oklopol> which is why not everyone might've put thought to it 13:05:45 <Figs> heh 13:05:51 <oklopol> you know, it's the funnier the more surprising it is 13:05:55 <Figs> right 13:06:07 <oklopol> so if you didn't understand what the plastic surgeon thing meant in a second 13:06:13 <oklopol> but in like 1.5, it might be fun 13:06:15 <oklopol> :) 13:06:17 <oklopol> anyway 13:06:27 <oklopol> i'll stop talking crappity now, gotta go buy stuff 13:06:32 <oklopol> gotta drink 13:06:33 <oklopol> caffeine 13:06:35 <oklopol> lots of it 13:06:42 <oklopol> to get my brain to work 13:06:58 <oklopol> i have the constant feeling of "dumb" in the morning 13:06:59 <Figs> Shark eating a clown fish -- "Does this taste funny to you?" 13:07:00 <oklopol> *s 13:07:13 <Figs> careful... 13:07:17 * Figs will only lower you IQ 13:07:52 <oklopol> my iq is 140 - 160 depending on the test 13:08:01 <oklopol> sometimes 120 13:08:08 <oklopol> they aren't consistent :| 13:08:16 <Figs> I don't trust tests 13:08:25 <oklopol> i don't like them, always about speed 13:08:32 * Figs thinks IQ tests are stupid :P 13:08:56 <Figs> (if you're trying to see how "intelligent" someone is, and not using them "properly") 13:08:58 -!- ehird` has joined. 13:09:05 -!- Figs has changed nick to ehird``. 13:09:15 <oklopol> they test pattern matching ability, usually 13:09:27 -!- ehird`` has changed nick to Figlet. 13:09:33 <Figlet> bah. registered. 13:09:40 -!- Figlet has changed nick to Figgeh. 13:09:41 <Figgeh> :D 13:09:54 <oklopol> Figgah 13:09:58 <oklopol> dirty figgah 13:10:00 <Figgeh> oh, I don't do Teh Figg(eh|ness) any mroe :'( 13:10:04 <Figgeh> figgahs 13:10:07 <Figgeh> ;) 13:10:12 <oklopol> :P 13:10:21 <oklopol> were being facist.. 13:10:27 <Figgeh> facist? O.o 13:10:34 <oklopol> n->f 13:10:37 <oklopol> r->f 13:10:46 -!- Figgeh has changed nick to Figs. 13:11:05 <Figs> o...o 13:11:08 <Figs> what? 13:11:14 <oklopol> ::P 13:11:26 <Figs> ::::p <-- spiderman!! 13:11:38 <oklopol> eh... clearly! 13:11:49 <oklopol> i don't get it 13:11:53 <Figs> - - - - - >>>>O 13:12:08 <Figs> it's ok 13:12:12 <Figs> it's 5 am 13:12:15 * Figs must sleep 13:12:19 <oklopol> 15 here :< 13:12:26 <oklopol> exams tomorrow ARIGFAE)GJOAGJRE 13:12:29 <oklopol> *exam 13:12:48 <Figs> figs.stupidness > infinity ? { sleep(); } 13:12:56 * Figs isn't in school yet 13:13:03 <Figs> my feet are cold 13:13:04 <oklopol> you're 5? 13:13:07 <Figs> no 13:13:14 <Figs> school starts in a week or two 13:13:19 <oklopol> :| 13:13:21 <Figs> I move in next wednesday 13:13:31 <oklopol> ...with me? 13:13:49 <oklopol> (see what i did there haw haw) 13:13:58 <Figs> not really funny 13:14:03 <Figs> :S 13:14:05 <Figs> sorry. 13:14:06 <oklopol> well not 13:14:13 <oklopol> but you have to realize that wasn't a joke 13:14:19 <oklopol> i just didn't understand what you meant 13:14:26 <Figs> awkward? 13:14:34 <oklopol> :D 13:14:43 <oklopol> err.. me? 13:14:44 <oklopol> no 13:14:49 * Figs moves in with kolopol and tells him to put on some clothes. 13:14:49 <oklopol> "moving in" 13:14:52 <Figs> *oklopol 13:14:56 <oklopol> i just know one meaning for thta 13:14:58 <oklopol> *that 13:15:09 <oklopol> i actually have some clothes on 13:15:17 <oklopol> my parents said they might come to visit. 13:15:22 <Figs> rofl 13:15:30 <Figs> ;) 13:15:48 <oklopol> my father is a bit of a nudist himself, though, so i don't think he'd be that shocked 13:15:50 <oklopol> but hey! 13:15:54 <oklopol> me goes :P -> 13:15:56 <Figs> parents + clothes > parents + nude? 13:16:03 <Figs> bye 13:16:07 * Figs goes too 13:16:09 -!- ihope_ has joined. 13:16:28 <Figs> hello, goodbye 13:16:31 -!- Figs has left (?). 14:52:47 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:52:59 -!- jix has joined. 15:09:01 -!- importantshock has joined. 15:48:12 -!- ihope_ has quit ("http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.08.09"). 16:12:39 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 16:17:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:56:58 -!- jix has joined. 17:13:46 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: no, but they have been known to Google me. 17:15:12 <oklopol> why do they know your nick? 17:15:20 <oklopol> mine don't know what irc is :) 17:15:36 <oklopol> i guess they sort of decided your nick for you... 17:15:44 <oklopol> in case that's your irl name 17:17:05 <SimonRC> ah, good point, they probably wouldn't 17:17:08 <SimonRC> but still... 17:58:43 -!- importantshock has quit ("Meh."). 19:06:54 -!- X-Slayer has joined. 19:06:55 <X-Slayer> cià 19:08:38 <SimonRC> X-Slayer: ? 19:08:56 <X-Slayer> SiminRC: hi 19:10:37 <ehird`> hm 19:28:03 <SimonRC> X-Slayer: how did you manage that? 19:28:38 <SimonRC> If your client did tab-completion, you would never mis-spell a username. 19:28:57 <X-Slayer> what? 19:29:26 <SimonRC> tab completion is where you type part of something and hit tab, and the computer finishes it for you. 19:29:40 <SimonRC> great for situations like completing IRC nicks 19:30:02 <SimonRC> or on command-line interfaces 19:30:06 * SimonRC eats dinner 19:30:53 -!- X-Slayer has left (?). 19:31:00 <ehird`> you scared x-slayer away SimonRC 19:31:25 * ehird` /whois X-Slayer 19:31:37 <ehird`> he disconnected, even :p 19:31:49 <ehird`> tab-completion is scary! 19:32:03 -!- oerjan has quit ("Dinner"). 19:42:31 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:56:05 <bsmntbombdood> clothes are overrated 19:57:20 <ehird`> TURTLES 19:57:22 <ehird`> are overrated 19:59:27 <bsmntbombdood> not really 19:59:57 <bsmntbombdood> my geography teacher is 19:59:57 <bsmntbombdood> so 19:59:59 <bsmntbombdood> fucking 20:00:00 <bsmntbombdood> stupid 20:00:20 * ehird` TURTLES 20:00:22 <ehird`> are 20:00:23 <ehird`> so 20:00:24 <ehird`> fucking 20:00:25 <ehird`> stupid 20:00:40 * bsmntbombdood sends a trojan turtle to ehird` 20:00:58 * ehird` sends a trojan...um...geography teacher to bsmntbombdood 20:01:25 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 20:01:55 * bsmntbombdood removes his pants 20:02:32 <oklopol> hah i've been naked for ages 20:05:10 <bsmntbombdood> my naked is worth more than your naked 20:06:22 <oklopol> i doubt that 20:06:44 <oklopol> i'm very sexy, you should see me 20:06:57 <bsmntbombdood> k 20:07:03 <bsmntbombdood> pix plox 20:07:12 <oklopol> >>> pix 20:07:51 <oklopol> i didn't mean that literally. 20:08:04 <oklopol> it's more of an intellectual kind of sexy 20:09:32 <bsmntbombdood> ha 20:10:35 <ehird`> oklopol: so, the ugly kind of sexy 20:10:41 <ehird`> right? :p 20:11:33 <oklopol> :D 20:11:46 <oklopol> hey, i'm seeing two girls atm! 20:14:50 <bsmntbombdood> i have a funny story 20:14:56 <bsmntbombdood> i was eating some sprats 20:14:59 <bsmntbombdood> on toast 20:15:06 <bsmntbombdood> and i said to myself "yummy" 20:15:09 <bsmntbombdood> </story> 20:18:45 <oklopol> haha "sprats" xD 20:18:55 <oklopol> that's a funny story alright :DD 20:21:28 <bsmntbombdood> i know! 20:22:14 <oklopol> also when you said "yummy", omg i almost wet my pants :DD 20:22:37 <bsmntbombdood> i thought you were naked 20:23:32 <oklopol> figuratively 20:24:22 <oklopol> i have a blanket under me, i could wet that one 20:26:35 <oklopol> my physics matriculation exam is tomorrow 8| 20:26:41 <oklopol> i don't know any fucking physics 20:26:52 <oklopol> teach me! teach me everything! 20:31:29 <bsmntbombdood> p = m*v 20:31:59 <oklopol> i know that! 20:32:12 <oklopol> i don't know any terms in english tohugh 20:32:14 <oklopol> *though 20:32:21 <oklopol> only done physics @ school 20:34:18 <bsmntbombdood> what are you matriculating for? 20:39:18 <oklopol> you mean, "why"? 20:39:23 <oklopol> or... hmm 20:40:22 <bsmntbombdood> what is the test for 20:42:33 <oklopol> physics? 20:42:39 <oklopol> oh 20:42:48 <bsmntbombdood> ...who is making you take it? 20:42:52 <oklopol> we have these test @ the end of high-school. 20:43:01 <bsmntbombdood> oh 20:43:08 <oklopol> "what is the test for" is also ambiguous :P 20:43:29 <oklopol> it's hard when parsing requires intelligence... 20:44:01 <oklopol> i had my english test and got the best grade possible, and i suck @ english 20:44:06 <oklopol> so i have high hopes still :P 20:44:21 <oklopol> i guess i don't suck when i try, but same goes for physics 20:44:23 <oklopol> hopefully 20:44:31 <oklopol> i hope it rains tomorrow 21:35:44 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 21:37:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:33:32 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:48:29 -!- RedDak has joined. 23:00:37 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:03:29 -!- RedDak has joined. 23:26:55 <ehird`> TURTLES 23:27:25 <bsmntbombdood> wrong 23:28:00 <ehird`> right! 23:28:48 <bsmntbombdood> left 23:29:08 <oerjan> go west! 23:34:59 <ehird`> TURTLES 23:47:45 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 23:49:25 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Client Quit). 2007-09-17: 00:25:41 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:26:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 01:14:50 -!- ehird` has quit. 02:01:49 -!- edwardk has joined. 02:07:59 -!- calamari has joined. 02:32:19 <edwardk> anyone awake who is versed in haskell syntax? playing with a toy language with similar syntax at the moment 02:32:32 <pikhq> oerjan? Oh oerjan? 02:32:34 <oerjan> *ahem* 02:32:39 <edwardk> but with no types 02:32:41 <edwardk> heya oerjan 02:33:23 <edwardk> basically i figured out a way to code up monads without types, so i've been playing with a framework somewhat between haskell and erlang for the last few days 02:34:06 <edwardk> ever used erlang? 02:34:37 <oerjan> nope 02:34:41 <edwardk> the idea in erlang is that you have atoms lists and tuples, and a few primitive types, but nothing else really and no type system. 02:35:30 <edwardk> what i went back and did was revisit the notion of a constructor in a typeless setting, so now i just say that a given constructor has some 'arity' associated with it. i.e. cons has arity 2 and nil has arity 0, but avoid specifying the types of the terms that go in each slot. 02:36:01 <oerjan> ok. similar to prolog i guess. 02:36:16 <edwardk> so in erlang you'd have to say {cons, x, xs} or {nil} whereas in this setting you can say arity 2 Cons, then Cons x xs and the default arity is 0 02:36:29 <edwardk> sorta, except it can be written applicatively because of the basic lazy semantics 02:36:30 <oerjan> (i vaguely recall erlang being descended somewhat from prolog, btw) 02:36:53 <edwardk> so you get haskell style pointfree syntax 02:37:27 <oerjan> yeah 02:37:31 <edwardk> so the dilemma comes about with monads, right since traditionally you think of a monad as doing different things based on the type it is inhabiting 02:38:15 <oerjan> pretty essential if you want more than one with the same syntax 02:38:15 <edwardk> so if you don't have types, haskell style monads seem like they are right out without passing around some sort of additional parameter that indicates the 'type of monad you are in' and using that. i.e. the haskell dictionary passing style 02:38:26 <edwardk> well, turns out you don't need that after all =) 02:38:46 <edwardk> the trick is the monad laws 02:38:59 <oerjan> i have thought similar thoughts 02:39:16 <edwardk> so for a concrete example lets define the identity monad 02:39:17 <edwardk> return = Ok 02:39:21 <edwardk> Ok x >>= f = f x 02:39:39 <edwardk> now Ok is a constructor which can be used as a tag when pattern matching on >>= so it knows what case its in. 02:39:45 <edwardk> mzero = Nil 02:39:50 <edwardk> Nil >>= f = f x 02:39:51 <edwardk> er 02:39:55 <edwardk> Nil >>= f = Nil 02:40:07 <edwardk> ok, so now we have the Identity Monad, and a Maybe monad 02:40:29 <edwardk> but what we need to do is anticipate that anywhere we could use the resulting monad we could also get 'Ok' 02:40:41 <edwardk> runReader (Reader f) = f 02:40:46 <edwardk> runReader (Ok x) = const x 02:41:19 <edwardk> so, then we consider something like 'ask' which seems to behave differently depending on context. 02:41:23 <edwardk> ask = Reader id 02:41:24 <oerjan> yep, you need a return that can be used everywhere. same solution as i thought of. 02:41:49 <edwardk> so the trick there is to autolift that into the reader transformer 02:41:49 <oerjan> there is some limitation though. 02:42:17 <edwardk> there are, in that you always have to tag it with a constructor 02:42:18 <oerjan> you can only use this for monads where >>= is strict in the first argument. 02:42:23 <edwardk> there is no 'true identity monad' 02:42:27 <edwardk> that is also true 02:42:35 <oerjan> Reader is not really 02:42:39 <edwardk> at least strict insofar as the outermost tag 02:43:28 <oerjan> otoh if you use something like runReader, maybe you can avoid that. 02:43:35 <edwardk> yeah 02:43:38 <edwardk> so the other fix 02:44:01 <edwardk> was to do something like the solution i want to play with for how to handle the monomorphism restriction and numerical classes 02:44:11 <edwardk> which reverts to carrying around the type parameter 02:44:41 <edwardk> if we define : to be an infix function, and + to be an arity 2 constructor you can say things like 02:44:59 <edwardk> a + b : Int = mp_add (a : Int) (b : Int) 02:45:21 <oerjan> haskell uses :: 02:45:22 <edwardk> and so on and so forth as a way to define how to recursively evaluate an expression as an integer 02:45:39 <edwardk> yeah the : in that case is an actual operator in my toy language. and i never liked haskell's :: =) 02:45:49 <oerjan> ML uses : 02:45:51 <edwardk> yeah 02:45:56 <oerjan> and the opposite for lists 02:46:09 <edwardk> i'm : for 'types' in this case and ; for lists 02:46:45 <edwardk> so with that same machinery you can make 'Return' and >>= both into constructors and define a similar decomposition 02:47:10 <edwardk> Return x : List = (x; Nil) 02:47:49 <edwardk> m >>= k : List = concat (map k m) 02:48:23 <edwardk> then the same expression consisting of Returns and >>='s can be reused in different monads until you apply a : to 'type' it 02:48:46 <edwardk> there are some tricks that still entails because : T should be idempotent, etc. 02:48:58 <oerjan> didn't you play around with a language with lots of types and (partially undecidable) inference a while ago? 02:49:03 <edwardk> and basically all : T is doing it taking the place of runT 02:49:34 <edwardk> yeah this is the same language i just stripped out the types for a while, since the non-type aspects (the substructural annotations and the theorem proving parts) are the parts I care about 02:49:55 <edwardk> so i wanted to see how far i could go with no types in the traditional sense, just detected pattern match failure 02:49:56 <oerjan> oh 02:50:08 <edwardk> basically its if i use ndm's CATCH tool as my type system ;) 02:50:25 <edwardk> or ESC/Haskell without the /Haskell =) 02:50:59 <edwardk> i figured it was a much stronger result to be able to duplicate existing techniques with the machinery than to just layer another abstraction on top 02:51:17 <oerjan> ic 02:51:57 <edwardk> otherwise the language remains unchanged, optimistic evaluation with lazy semantics, still has the theorem proving bits, but none of those pesky types 02:52:17 <edwardk> having the monads above lets me stay lazy and not go crazy 02:52:52 <edwardk> constructor elimination becomes of course a critical optimization step because EVERYTHING is tagged and constructors are global 02:53:11 <edwardk> so my apply/dispatch mechanism is uglier 02:53:44 <edwardk> and as a result of the above reasoning its necessary for me to allow extension of the same function (say >>=) in many locations in the code 02:53:57 <edwardk> so its hard to do separate compilation 02:54:01 <edwardk> but its a fun mental puzzle 02:54:06 <oerjan> "We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." "How do you know i'm mad?" Said Alice. "You must be." Said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." 02:54:26 <oerjan> (regarding going crazy ;) ) 02:54:51 <edwardk> =) 02:56:11 <edwardk> http://comonad.com/r5.opt 02:56:19 <edwardk> is sort of a spew of random gibberings in this setting 02:57:23 <edwardk> arity declarations are kind of like haskell fixity declarations, but for right now fixities are er. fixed coz i'm lazy and haven't added them =) 02:57:47 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 02:57:49 <edwardk> \x. foo ~= \x -> foo since there is no legal use for a . inside a pattern there 02:57:58 <edwardk> and its closer to the lambda calculus formalism 02:58:58 <edwardk> i like the fact that it sort of naturally subtypes back and forth between the monads (Nil and Nothing collapse, etc) 02:59:12 <edwardk> the Identity monad is just a Maybe monad where Nil is never used, etc. 02:59:36 <edwardk> i had an earlier version with "types" for the monads before i realized i could live without the type tags 03:00:40 <edwardk> http://comonad.com/r3.opt 03:01:45 <edwardk> basically anything without a = in the line is taken to be an 'axiom' which is just a function that any time the pattern matches returns true, and if none of the patterns match anywhere it returns false 03:02:03 <edwardk> and i do prolog/erlang style structural equality tests if you use the same term in a pattern twice 03:02:06 <edwardk> x <: x 03:02:09 <edwardk> for instance 03:03:45 <oerjan> hm... you get sort of a supermonad that includes all the others... 03:03:51 <edwardk> but plumbing around the monad type everywhere got ugly, i did a version with a sort of implicit type-level reader monad and another draft using dynamic binding and delimited control to change a dynamically scoped 'current monad' variable with pattern matching support on dynamic variables 03:03:53 <edwardk> yeah 03:04:16 <edwardk> brings to mind that somewhat horrid 'unimo' paper iirc 03:04:52 <edwardk> but basically i find it amusing that it lets me express a subtyping relationship among the different monads thats more or less impossible to express in a hindley milner style formalism 03:06:02 <edwardk> i started down this slippery slope with http://comonad.com/reader/2007/parameterized-monads-in-haskell/ 03:06:35 <edwardk> one thing i like about it is the reductions are confluent even if you are locally working in a different 'sub-monad' 03:07:09 <edwardk> i.e. if you work with just returns and >>= you stay in 'identity' until you mix in an 'ask' then you get lifted out into Reader, then maybe you 'get' so you get placed in a state monad, etc. 03:07:23 <edwardk> then when you runFoo you peel off the layers of the onion 03:07:31 <edwardk> and you coerce the types to fit 03:08:02 <edwardk> so locally you can avoid having to pay the overhead of the full monad you are in 03:09:19 <edwardk> which when you add in constructor-elimination should open up a lot of optimization opportunities that you never get exposed to in haskell because you can't see them through the monad-noise 03:10:09 <edwardk> the pain in the ass comes from the fact that i have to try to use control flow analysis to see if you ever do the wrong thing ;) 03:11:39 <edwardk> still playing with it 03:11:48 <edwardk> but i thought it was a neat way to tackle the 'untyped monad' 03:12:09 <edwardk> as opposed to the dictionary passing style mechanism that dpiponi used in his toy untyped monadic language 03:12:40 <edwardk> coz passing dictionaries everywhere explicitly gets rid of the nice syntactic benefits of having monads 03:21:37 <oerjan> i guess a mathematician if necessary would put the monad as index on the >>= 03:22:26 <edwardk> i played with carrying around an explicit type using the : as a reduction operator, which lets you do things like the anonymous reader monad as well 03:22:36 <edwardk> not sure if thats a win though 03:23:00 <edwardk> the : reduction technique is how i'm thinking about handling the monomorphism restriction though 03:23:05 <edwardk> its a funny way to view the world though 03:23:09 <edwardk> + as a constructor 03:23:26 <edwardk> then applying an evaluation function (:) to the constructed value the evaluate it 03:24:36 <oerjan> your mixing of monads might be a bit awkward if the transformers don't commute 03:24:48 <edwardk> yeah a known issue =/ 03:25:19 <edwardk> you may have to inject a runFoo or a : t to disambiguate 03:27:06 <edwardk> x : READER = Reader (runReader x) 03:27:33 <edwardk> so that its idempotent 03:28:04 <edwardk> then i can stick to my 'typeless monad' approach and use (:) as a disambiguation operator letting it retain its 'type-annotation' like connotation 03:51:22 <bsmntbombdood> f(15) = 16; f(34) = 92; f(13) = 8; f(20) = ??? 03:52:30 <oerjan> huh? 03:52:57 <oerjan> is this all the information about f you've got? 03:54:16 <oerjan> 13 is a prime, and 8 is the previous fibonacci number 03:54:27 <bsmntbombdood> that's all the information i have 03:54:41 <edwardk> ah one sec 03:54:48 <edwardk> just looked at my screen i think i know it 03:54:56 <bsmntbombdood> oh, edwardk 03:55:14 <bsmntbombdood> you were the one with the language that no one but oerjan understood, right? 03:55:51 <edwardk> > let f x = x*4 - 44 in map f [15,34,13,20] ===> (10:55:49 PM) Lambda Bot: [16,92,8,36] 03:56:01 <edwardk> yeah 03:56:38 <edwardk> its changed into a simpler language with basically the same issue ;) 03:56:58 <oerjan> :D 03:57:32 <edwardk> bsmntbombdood: anyways that should answer your question 03:58:03 <edwardk> the key insight for me was the f(15) and f(13), i backed that out to guess f(11) and used f(34) to test its linearity 03:58:31 <bsmntbombdood> aaah 04:00:35 <oerjan> exercise: now, if it hadn't been linear, why wouldn't it be a good idea to try a second degree polynomial? ;) 04:00:51 <edwardk> heh 04:01:11 <edwardk> coz you could always find one? =) 04:01:21 <oerjan> edwardk wins the prize! 04:01:32 <edwardk> i knew that math degree was good for something ;) 04:02:11 <edwardk> actually thats a perfectly good use for a second degree polynomial for these silly underspecified problems =P 04:03:13 <oerjan> probably 04:03:15 <bsmntbombdood> what about f(361) = 22; f(121) = 14; f(81) = 12; f(25) = ?? 04:03:31 * edwardk watches as #esoteric does bsmntbombdood's homework =) 04:03:42 <bsmntbombdood> not my homework! 04:03:50 <bsmntbombdood> (my dads) :P 04:04:02 <edwardk> look at f(121) and f(81), do the same trick i did above 04:04:05 <oerjan> in this case we are looking at squares 04:04:15 <edwardk> oerjan: ? 04:04:45 <oerjan> all the arguments are squares 04:04:46 <edwardk> 'every 20 it changes by 1', so find 0 04:05:07 <edwardk> rise over run 04:05:10 <oerjan> sqrt(n)+3 04:05:21 <oerjan> in fact 04:05:57 <edwardk> i'll buy that 04:06:45 <bsmntbombdood> wow 04:06:46 <bsmntbombdood> thanks 04:10:40 <edwardk> oerjan is right in that case since that one fails the naive linearity test: > let f x = x/20 + 7.95 in map f [81,121,361,25] ==> Lambda Bot: [12.0,14.0,> 26.0 < ,9.2] 04:11:08 <edwardk> and it looks ugly when you try it linearly ;) 04:13:05 <edwardk> so do you think people would like to play with a (sort-of) untyped lazy language with just constructors and easily extensible cases? it opens up a haskell-like language to the erlang-like use cases of long-uptime systems, etc. 04:13:22 <edwardk> since its easy to code-swap in that sort of system 04:24:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:36:16 -!- edwardk has left (?). 04:52:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 05:20:22 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:18:38 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 06:20:30 -!- Guilt has joined. 06:20:41 <pikhq> Just a tiny game I've been designing in PEBBLE. . . 06:20:54 <pikhq> (PEBBLE being a macro language I devised which compiles to Brainfuck) 06:21:16 <Guilt> oh? :) 06:21:18 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pebble.php If you need to ask me questions, do so later; I'm going to bed, since it's late. 06:21:27 <pikhq> Sorry. 06:21:32 <Guilt> okay :) nighty night 06:21:35 <bsmntbombdood> getting up early-- 06:21:36 <pikhq> Enjoy Brainfucking with everyone else. . . 06:21:40 <pikhq> If they're here. 06:21:54 <Guilt> i will! :) 06:50:56 -!- g4lt-sb100 has joined. 06:54:21 -!- sp3tt has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:00:08 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/ (EOF)"). 07:05:52 -!- g4lt-mordant has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 07:20:45 -!- tokigun_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:22:30 -!- tokigun has joined. 07:38:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("gtg bye"). 07:46:00 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:46:32 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 07:46:42 -!- Guilt has joined. 07:50:52 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:51:19 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 07:51:32 -!- puzzlet__ has joined. 07:51:44 -!- puzzlet__ has quit (Client Quit). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:37 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:12:55 <Guilt> i was wondering. would the equivalent of code-compression in brainfuck involve functions? :) 08:13:12 <Guilt> brainfuck code is kinda' huge 08:16:41 <Guilt> brainfuck code looks easy to compress, you know. 08:17:01 <Guilt> with lz, you could put those identified patterns together 08:24:07 <lament> yes, it's easy to compress. 08:24:23 <lament> try bzip2 :) 08:25:42 <Guilt> lament: no, at executable code level. 08:25:56 <Guilt> upxing gave me a 14% compression thing. 08:26:10 <Guilt> 14% of uncompressed executable data 08:26:36 <Guilt> i was wondering if anybody tried doing code compression. :) 08:26:47 <Guilt> so you can also identify reusable brainfuck patterns 08:26:52 <Guilt> like a library of sorts. 08:27:15 <Guilt> hmm. the next best thing: a portable brainfuck library :D 08:27:17 <Guilt> hehe 08:27:18 <lament> i'm not sure whether "at executable code level" is meaningful. 08:27:38 <lament> there're several macro preprocessors for brainfuck, though. 08:27:42 <Guilt> lament: http://guilt.bafsoft.net/downloads/wip/Brainfuck.tar.bz2 check this out. 08:28:02 <Guilt> LostKng.b compiled to an executable of size 2 odd megs. 08:28:12 <lament> oh, i see 08:28:53 <Guilt> you know, which is why i wondered if there would be a way to reduce code. 08:29:05 <Guilt> like combining a compiler with a compressor. ;) lol 08:29:08 <lament> yes, of course. 08:30:15 <Guilt> hmm. one easy way to partition it is to take loops which lead to the same text pattern. make them functions with labels. call them instead of jumping to them, and return back. 08:30:37 <Guilt> that way you could save considerable space. 08:30:55 <Guilt> you're not passing any data through the stack, which makes it a little slower, but smaller 08:31:14 <lament> also, identify patterns of brainfuck code that can be compiled into single instructions 08:32:52 <lament> ie balanced loops 08:34:15 <Guilt> i'm already coercing shifts and additions 08:34:29 <Guilt> is that what you are talking about? 08:35:44 <Guilt> er. balanced loops 08:35:45 <Guilt> er. balanced loops? 08:35:53 <Guilt> didn't get that one? 08:36:16 <lament> loops which don't move the memory pointer 08:36:21 <lament> eg [->++<] 08:36:40 <Guilt> that don't move it? 08:36:55 <lament> the memory pointer is unchanged by the loop 08:37:13 <lament> the effect is m[mp+1] = m[mp] * 2; m[mp] = 0; 08:37:20 <Guilt> well. but it's used to increase the adjacent cell by twice the current cell value 08:37:27 <Guilt> yea 08:37:32 <lament> i'm not sure what the "but" in your sentence means. 08:38:06 <Guilt> for small shifts it's okay. but with a moving loop and shift it's impossible. 08:38:37 <Guilt> like, to set all values to zero (of lower and current cell): [[-]<] 08:39:23 <lament> that's not a balanced loop. 08:39:27 <Guilt> yea 08:39:36 <lament> but [-] is 08:39:38 <Guilt> oh okay :) 08:40:06 <Guilt> hm. i see. a balanced loop contains balanced loops and doesn't change the memory pointer position\ 08:40:42 <Guilt> alright. will read a bit about this :) 08:40:43 <Guilt> brb 08:40:47 <lament> good night 08:55:03 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 09:00:48 -!- RedDak has joined. 09:48:24 -!- SEO_DUDE55 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:58:39 <Guilt> back 09:58:45 <Guilt> lament, you slept? 10:14:34 -!- SEO_DUDE55 has joined. 10:35:43 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/ (Ping timeout)"). 10:35:57 -!- Guilt has joined. 10:41:13 -!- SEO_DUDE55 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:26:35 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/ (EOF)"). 11:52:18 -!- ehird` has joined. 12:13:11 -!- helios24 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:03:01 -!- rutlov has joined. 13:03:35 -!- helios24 has joined. 13:09:01 -!- rutlov has left (?). 13:18:11 <oklopol> this time i actually understood (partly) what edwardk said! 13:18:19 <oklopol> oh the joy 14:26:01 <SimonRC> dadadadom 14:26:10 <ehird`> what did he say 14:26:36 <SimonRC> I was quoting Beethoven. 14:27:44 <ehird`> edwardk 14:27:46 <ehird`> i meant 14:29:57 <SimonRC> ahell of a lot 14:42:14 <oklopol> even though i'm pretty sure i understood, i am certainly not confident enough to try to explain it to you, so check the logs :P 14:43:36 <oklopol> i didn't get all of the monad stuff, but i mean last time i didn't understand one single sentence completely, i'm pretty sure :P 14:44:23 <oklopol> i did understand the idea, that was pretty obvious, but he's got a lot of words 14:55:10 <bsmntbombdood> SimonRC: Leck mich im Arsch 14:56:08 <bsmntbombdood> (just quoting beethoven) 14:56:15 <ehird`> mozart 14:56:16 <ehird`> actually 14:56:48 <bsmntbombdood> damnit 14:57:15 <bsmntbombdood> stupid identical old guys 15:37:13 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:58:43 -!- jix has joined. 17:07:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:21:05 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: ?! 17:30:32 <oerjan> beethoven and mozart, presumably. famous decomposers. 17:35:09 -!- SEO_DUDE55 has joined. 17:44:51 * SimonRC goes 18:15:39 -!- _D6Gregor1RFeZi has changed nick to GregorR. 18:49:08 -!- sp3tt has joined. 19:06:35 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 19:43:27 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:02:39 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 20:13:29 * ehird` is a famous decomposer 20:17:39 <RodgerTheGreat> like a maggot? 20:17:48 <ehird`> and beethoven and mozart 20:18:11 <RodgerTheGreat> no, those two are decomposing composers 20:18:47 <RodgerTheGreat> beethoven, for example, wasn't famous for his decomposing until after his death 20:21:14 <ehird`> oerjan 20:21:14 <ehird`> 17:29:47 20:21:14 <ehird`> beethoven and mozart, presumably. famous decomposers. 20:21:19 <ehird`> so ha 20:53:29 -!- RedDak has joined. 21:06:24 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 21:14:37 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:39:06 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:03:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:10:42 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 22:48:33 <bsmntbombdood> how much work is a compiler allowed to do and still be called a compiler? 22:52:07 <oerjan> just about anything? 22:52:39 <oerjan> remember that a compiler cannot access actual runtime input, which limits things 22:52:53 <bsmntbombdood> only a little 22:53:13 * ehird` thinks that in /me's perfect language, compiler and interpreter would be the same word! 22:59:15 -!- ehird` has quit. 23:01:32 -!- ehird` has joined. 23:43:14 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Compilers are just language translators that target languages not intended to be read by humans. 23:43:34 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: If your program does something aside from language translation, it's not a compiler. 23:44:03 <bsmntbombdood> i was thinking about optimizations 23:44:11 <GregorR> I guess I can remove the clause "not intended to be read by humans" 23:44:46 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Optimization is a component of the translation. It's like translating a phrase into a coined expression instead of into a roundabout explanation. 23:45:05 <GregorR> (To compare it to real language translation) 23:47:29 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 2007-09-18: 00:04:26 -!- ehird` has quit. 00:16:26 <lament> it's hard for compiler and interpreter to be the same word. 00:58:33 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 02:17:46 -!- edwardk has joined. 03:58:56 -!- edwardk has left (?). 04:22:59 <bsmntbombdood> CLOACAL IMMUREMENT 04:39:34 <oerjan> i generally try to avoid that. 04:40:06 <bsmntbombdood> good, that will probably extend your life 04:42:30 <bsmntbombdood> but it sure would make a good story, no? 04:43:28 <oerjan> no. 04:43:53 <bsmntbombdood> no to your no 06:19:03 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:07:32 -!- rutlov has joined. 07:19:32 -!- rutlov has left (?). 07:23:42 <lament> stealing matlab is hard 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:13:47 -!- Guilt has joined. 08:59:47 -!- helios24 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:01:34 -!- helios24 has joined. 09:34:53 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:59:38 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/ (EOF)"). 10:28:57 -!- ehird` has joined. 10:38:32 -!- helios24 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:39:50 -!- SEO_DUDE55 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:43:33 -!- SEO_DUDE55 has joined. 11:30:40 -!- SEO_DUDE55 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:41:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:41:51 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:41:56 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:58:00 -!- SEO_DUDE101 has joined. 13:20:59 -!- jix has joined. 14:35:59 <oerjan> <CTCP>ACTION tests<CTCP> 14:36:13 * oerjan tests 14:36:25 <oerjan> ? 14:36:57 <oerjan> ah. 14:39:45 <ehird`> \1ACTION tests\1, you mean 14:39:51 <ehird`> ctcp :p 14:43:20 <oerjan> huh? the second was right wasn't it? 14:45:58 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:46:10 -!- jix has joined. 14:48:31 <oklopol> yeah! 14:48:50 <oklopol> so right it almost peeked out from the left already 15:30:20 -!- helios24 has joined. 16:38:09 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 17:04:43 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 17:16:50 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 18:37:19 -!- jix has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 18:37:19 -!- Overand has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 18:37:19 -!- Chton has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 18:37:19 -!- Eidolos has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 18:38:01 -!- jix has joined. 18:38:01 -!- Overand has joined. 18:38:01 -!- Chton has joined. 18:38:01 -!- Eidolos has joined. 18:53:22 * SimonRC has dinner. 19:42:13 -!- Figs has joined. 19:42:22 <Figs> ah... 19:42:24 <Figs> don't you just love operator abuse? 19:42:26 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/YGBwxZ75.html 19:43:50 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:56:05 <oklopol> hehe clever 19:56:36 <Figs> it's pretty basic 19:56:42 <Figs> I could do a better job with more time 19:56:51 <Figs> but I was just fed up with syntax tree generators yesterday :P 19:57:12 <Figs> if I keep doing this shit, eventually I'll have a full lisp-interpreter in C++ .... >.> 19:57:18 * GregorR watches Figs turn C++ into LISP 19:57:18 <oklopol> closer to lisp than your earlier parenthesis one, was my point 19:57:24 <GregorR> Whoops, spoke to late :P 19:57:24 <oklopol> ... 19:57:30 <GregorR> *too 19:57:33 <Figs> :p 19:57:41 <oklopol> i recall us once before saying the same thing at almost the same second 19:57:49 <Figs> lol 19:58:02 <oklopol> actually 19:58:10 <oklopol> you almost said that at the same second too :P 19:58:30 <Figs> #define node(s) tree(s) isn't really needed... I was just feeling lazy :P 19:58:33 <GregorR> Now, Plof3 will be trivially able to be turned into LISP 19:58:54 <oklopol> ah you added that syntax thing 19:58:57 <Figs> I don't really know enough lisp to convert the whole thing 19:59:04 <GregorR> oklopol: Yup 8-D 19:59:09 <GregorR> Runtime-defined grammar! Weeeh 19:59:11 <oklopol> i don't like that. 19:59:17 <Figs> but supposedly I only need about 7 functions...? 19:59:18 <oklopol> you know what the reason is? 19:59:29 <Figs> (according to (paul graham)) 19:59:35 <oklopol> I WAS GONNA DO THAT FOR OKLOTALK YOU MIND THIF 19:59:37 <oklopol> *THIEF 20:00:25 <oklopol> lisp needs if + define + lambda + a few operators 20:00:53 -!- ololobot has joined. 20:01:01 <oklopol> >>> (+ 1 1) 20:01:04 <oklopol> >>> sch (+ 1 1) 20:01:05 <ololobot> 2 20:02:03 <oklopol> GregorR: is grammar first-class? 20:02:23 <oklopol> can you pass it for the ultimate obfuscation 20:02:27 <oklopol> *pass it around 20:02:54 -!- sebbu has quit (Success). 20:03:07 -!- Figs has left (?). 20:17:05 -!- Tritonio has joined. 21:04:02 <GregorR> s 21:04:14 <GregorR> Why do I keep typing 's' :P 21:04:47 <GregorR> No, grammatical elements are not first class ... you could build a grammar which has constructs which themselves resolve to grammatical actions, and then pass around those constructs. 21:08:16 <GregorR> That is, grammatical elements are defined entirely internally and committed by operations in the stack code, but you could make an object which encapsulates that stackcode operation in a defined way. 21:10:45 <GregorR> (FYI, the stackcode itself is not directly accessible from user code, you need to define a grammar for it) 21:44:45 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:00:09 <ehird`> who wants to help me write the ultimate bf compiler i've had in mind for a while now? 22:00:16 <ehird`> it'll do BF->C, and some really heavy optimization 22:03:07 <ehird`> hopefully it'll be the most complete BF compiler out there 22:03:46 -!- RedDak has joined. 22:04:46 <ehird`> =) 22:11:47 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 22:16:56 <ehird`> <crickets chirp, nobody cares> 22:43:06 <bsmntbombdood> everyone wants to do an optimizing bf compiler 22:47:07 <ehird`> yes, except i've had ideas for this one in my mind for a while now 22:50:59 <bsmntbombdood> like? 22:51:12 <ehird`> like some various optimization techniques that i have not seen before 22:52:33 <bsmntbombdood> like? 22:52:40 <ehird`> like x[x] -> dowhile loop 22:52:43 <ehird`> (i haven't seen that before) 22:53:10 <bsmntbombdood> that's not any faster 22:56:16 <ehird`> it's still a reasonable optimization 22:56:20 <ehird`> and helps with code size 22:58:02 <bsmntbombdood> the obvious one is to pre execute all the code up to the first input 22:58:16 <ehird`> which is actually a really sucky optimization 22:58:25 <ehird`> what about infinite loops? 22:58:29 <ehird`> if you put a timelimit, 22:58:37 <ehird`> what if my code takes 5 minutes to execute but isn't an infinite loop? 22:58:47 <ehird`> do i get different, unoptimized code jsut because of the system i'm on is slow? 22:59:00 <bsmntbombdood> not a timelimit, an instruction limit 22:59:09 <ehird`> still ridiculous 22:59:21 <ehird`> just because my code is a certain way it gets compiled in a different, perhaps slower way 22:59:27 <bsmntbombdood> duh... 22:59:35 <bsmntbombdood> any optimization is like that 22:59:46 <bsmntbombdood> what about x<>[x] 22:59:53 <ehird`> also, i don't want my factorial program that calculates the factorial of 10 to be executed at compiletime 22:59:57 <bsmntbombdood> oops, your optimization fails 23:00:01 <ehird`> and no 23:00:12 <ehird`> the x[x] optimization will be run after the useless-instruction removal 23:00:20 <ehird`> "<>" = "", so it'd be x[x] again 23:02:27 <bsmntbombdood> just an example 23:02:41 <bsmntbombdood> there's other ways to make it the same but unrecognizable 23:02:41 <ehird`> still 23:02:59 <ehird`> btw, the look-ahead and code-pattern-matching codes would be pretty advanced 23:03:08 <ehird`> it'd be damn hard to make e.g. the x[x] optimization fail 23:04:25 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:04:41 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:15:37 -!- ehird` has quit. 23:52:22 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 2007-09-19: 00:00:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:20:47 <bsmntbombdood> oh nice 01:20:50 <bsmntbombdood> "The library offers a rather nice "free" dynamic memory allocation feature for running brainfuck code. 01:20:50 <bsmntbombdood> It works through page protection mechanism and catching of SIGSEGV signals. " 01:20:56 <bsmntbombdood> i was wondering if that was possible 01:22:24 <bsmntbombdood> wtf, no code 01:23:42 <bsmntbombdood> http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/libbf/ 02:25:39 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:14:50 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit. 04:15:34 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:21:09 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 04:23:40 -!- SEO_DUDE101 has quit (Excess Flood). 04:26:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit. 04:26:35 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 04:29:24 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 04:31:33 -!- SEO_DUDE101 has joined. 05:54:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 06:31:21 -!- oerjan has quit ("Coffee..."). 06:32:25 <bsmntbombdood> mm, coffee 07:54:46 -!- Robdgreat has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 10:04:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:08:06 -!- RedDak has joined. 10:10:40 -!- ehird` has joined. 11:00:50 <oklopol> anyone seen "the lost highway" by david lynch? 11:01:01 <oklopol> quite esoteric 11:05:23 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:13:54 -!- Guilt has joined. 11:26:05 -!- jix has joined. 11:37:11 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:42:09 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 11:54:37 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:14:18 -!- RedDak has joined. 14:19:12 -!- SEO_DUDE101 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:27:32 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:45:06 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:45:16 -!- jix has joined. 15:13:26 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/ (EOF)"). 16:41:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 17:16:11 -!- zepolen has joined. 17:16:26 -!- zepolen has left (?). 17:37:01 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:37:34 -!- jix has joined. 17:48:23 -!- g4lt-sb100 has changed nick to g4lt-yarrrrr. 17:59:00 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:03:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 18:03:17 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:30:13 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 18:37:04 -!- Tritonio has joined. 19:01:50 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 19:11:10 -!- sp3tt has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:16:14 -!- sp3tt has joined. 20:58:17 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:58:18 -!- ololobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:59:35 -!- oklopol has joined. 21:09:15 -!- RedDak has joined. 22:01:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:28:36 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:59:51 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:17:24 -!- RedDak has joined. 23:37:43 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 2007-09-20: 00:12:34 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 00:15:55 * SimonRC goes to bed. 00:35:38 -!- RedDak has joined. 00:37:36 -!- RedDak has quit (Client Quit). 01:32:10 -!- importantshock has joined. 01:32:27 <importantshock> howdy 01:56:48 -!- ehird` has quit. 02:29:49 <GregorR> Thoughts I've had today: An NFSM with a stack (a basic stack machine) can parse any context-free grammar. 02:29:55 <GregorR> Erm, that's 1) 02:30:13 <Robdgreat> you were feeling ambitious today, weren't you 02:30:17 <GregorR> 2) A machine of this type can go into an infinite loop. 02:30:50 <GregorR> 3) In fact, it will go into an infinite loop with any recursive grammar parsing code with bad grammar. 02:31:09 <GregorR> 4) The halting problem is solvable, but 02:31:22 <GregorR> 5) It's a HUGE EFFING PITA TO SOLVE IMPLEMENT :( 02:31:54 <GregorR> Erm 02:32:01 <GregorR> s/SOLVE // :P 02:35:47 <Robdgreat> you fail. 02:35:52 <Robdgreat> ;] 02:35:57 <Robdgreat> what's up in here 02:42:58 <GregorR> ? 02:43:12 <Robdgreat> not much activity in the channel 02:43:18 <Robdgreat> how's everyone 02:44:08 <GregorR> I'm fried from trying to figure out this NFSM+Stack stuff :P 02:44:16 <Robdgreat> ah. 03:25:54 -!- importantshock has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:25:54 -!- Chton has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:25:54 -!- Overand has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:25:54 -!- Eidolos has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:25:55 -!- tokigun has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:25:55 -!- cmeme has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:25:57 -!- zuzu_ has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:25:57 -!- sekhmet has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:25:58 -!- Tritonio has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:25:58 -!- pikhq has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:25:58 -!- g4lt-yarrrrr has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:25:59 -!- GregorR has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:25:59 -!- sp3tt has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:25:59 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:26:00 -!- mtve has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:26:00 -!- SimonRC has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:26:00 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:26:00 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:26:00 -!- lament has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:26:00 -!- oklopol has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:26:51 -!- importantshock has joined. 03:26:51 -!- oklopol has joined. 03:26:51 -!- sp3tt has joined. 03:26:51 -!- Tritonio has joined. 03:26:51 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 03:26:51 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 03:26:51 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:26:51 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:26:51 -!- Eidolos has joined. 03:26:51 -!- Chton has joined. 03:26:51 -!- Overand has joined. 03:26:51 -!- tokigun has joined. 03:26:51 -!- g4lt-yarrrrr has joined. 03:26:51 -!- cmeme has joined. 03:26:51 -!- lament has joined. 03:26:51 -!- zuzu_ has joined. 03:26:51 -!- sekhmet has joined. 03:26:51 -!- SimonRC has joined. 03:26:51 -!- GregorR has joined. 03:26:51 -!- mtve has joined. 03:27:40 <RodgerTheGreat> that was fun 04:00:19 <GregorR> Yeah, solving the halting problem for an NFSM stack machine = MASSIVE pain in the arse. 04:00:29 <RodgerTheGreat> hm 04:00:30 <GregorR> Totally doable! 04:00:33 <GregorR> But MASSIVE pain. 04:00:45 <RodgerTheGreat> Non-Finite State Machine? 04:03:58 <GregorR> Nondeterministic Finite State Machine 04:04:05 <GregorR> A non-finite state machine is a Turing machine :P 04:04:26 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, alright- that's where my confusion lied 04:08:41 <GregorR> Basically, you can make sure the machine never halts by 1) handling all non-consumptive steps simultaneously, 2) detecting loops in those steps and 3) encapsulating infinite recursion on the stack into a special "infinity" marker. When the infinity marker is popped, the state splits into two: One with the infinity marker and the remainder on the stack, one with only the remainder on the stack. 04:09:02 <RodgerTheGreat> interesting 04:09:52 <RodgerTheGreat> so, in this type of system, does it become solvable because it's possible to calculate how likely the machine is to be in a particular state? 04:10:21 <GregorR> NFSMs are interpreted by having a set of states that the machine is in the superposition of. 04:10:39 <GregorR> Once every state has either led to a dead end or consumed all of the input, you're done. 04:11:28 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, I see 04:12:02 <GregorR> You can detect loops in an FSM, since returning to a state without consuming anything is always an infinite loop. 04:14:40 <bsmntbombdood> you are talking about NPDAs, right? 04:14:48 <GregorR> No, NFSMs. 04:15:31 <GregorR> Wait! 04:15:33 <GregorR> Hahahaha 04:15:40 <GregorR> I forgot, that's what a PDA is X-D 04:15:44 <GregorR> NFSM + stack = PDA 04:15:48 <GregorR> Wow, I feel stupid now :P 04:15:54 <bsmntbombdood> no, FSM + stack = PDA 04:16:18 <GregorR> Err, right, NFSM + stack = NPDA 04:24:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:27:20 * Sgeo should really work on PSOX 04:27:49 * GregorR should really work on Plof3 04:27:53 <Sgeo> Plof3? 04:28:02 <GregorR> The next incarnation of Plof. 04:28:13 <Sgeo> What's Plof? 04:28:57 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/plof/ 04:29:16 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/plof/plof3.txt // current work-in-progress new spec 04:42:09 -!- kwertii has joined. 04:43:13 -!- kwertii has quit (Client Quit). 04:43:25 -!- kwertii has joined. 04:54:59 -!- importantshock has quit ("Meh."). 05:28:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:28:05 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 05:36:04 <RodgerTheGreat> you guys might appreciate some of these.. 05:36:57 <RodgerTheGreat> I've been drawing a bunch of increasingly bizarre comics for fun this evening. I present my creations for the enjoyment of anyone with the misfortune to still be awake: 05:37:01 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190259559-rootpowah.png 05:37:05 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190260876-inetargument.png 05:37:09 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190262068-rollin.png 05:49:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Man who stand in frond of car is tired. Man who stand behind car is exhausted."). 06:00:31 <bsmntbombdood> i lol'd 06:33:24 <RodgerTheGreat> haha 06:33:29 <RodgerTheGreat> which one? 06:33:32 <RodgerTheGreat> (s) 06:47:10 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:25:17 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:25:24 -!- oklopol has joined. 08:39:09 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 08:43:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has left (?). 08:43:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 09:05:11 -!- jix has joined. 09:35:26 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:18:03 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 10:22:36 <oklopol> www.answers.com/npda 10:24:19 <oklopol> whut? 10:24:23 <oklopol> anyway, what's that? 10:25:10 <oklopol> (kinda embarrasing looking up a word and managing to write it here instead of the url block...) 10:54:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("http://freechess.org"). 10:55:47 -!- kwertii has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:02:22 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lunch"). 11:20:32 -!- g4lt-sb100 has joined. 11:21:26 -!- g4lt-yarrrrr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:53:31 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: is root wearing a bandanna, or is that a / 13:26:47 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:28:24 * Sgeo should work on PSOX 13:59:46 -!- jix has joined. 14:07:36 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:44:42 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:53:33 -!- jix has joined. 15:55:52 -!- Guilt has joined. 16:27:40 <GregorR> $ twopipe psoxi "egobfc2m Sgeo.bf" 16:27:51 <GregorR> <Sgeo> Booting ... 16:27:55 <GregorR> Segmentation fault 16:28:17 <GregorR> Sgeo: Yeah, you SHOULD work on PSOX, but you don't. 16:54:50 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/"). 17:25:48 <oklopol> GregorR: can i see some plof3 code? 17:26:09 <oklopol> or do you even have the runtime parsing system ready yet? 17:26:18 <GregorR> It's not ready yet. 17:26:28 <oklopol> but 17:26:34 <GregorR> I've barely started writing anything yet :P 17:26:40 <oklopol> oh 17:27:00 <oklopol> then i daresay my oklotalk runtime parsing modification syntax might be further thought than yours :) 17:27:01 <GregorR> You can have the thirty or so lines of an NPDA implementation I've written thusfar :P 17:27:02 <oklopol> but 17:27:12 <oklopol> i'll prolly never get to implementing it so... no conflict :<< 17:27:31 <GregorR> I hear alllll these great things about oklotalk ripping me off, but I see no code. 17:27:52 <oklopol> :P 17:27:59 <GregorR> Anyway, my code is all in D, and I'm betting yours isn't, so you can't steal my code :P 17:28:15 <oklopol> i'm not gonna, all the similarities are superficial 17:28:29 <oklopol> but there are a lot of them, and i'm changing them, obviously 17:28:31 <GregorR> So, how does your runtime parsing system work? 17:28:56 <oklopol> that's the thing, your idea seems so much more coherent i don't even want to talk about mine. 17:29:05 <GregorR> Hahaha 17:29:12 <GregorR> Well, I AM brilliant. 17:29:38 <oklopol> i think you've just had time to put more thought to that, but i do admit you are brilliant. 17:30:12 <oklopol> because while that stack thing is clever, it is obvious up to the knowledge i have about it 17:30:16 <oklopol> which is very little :) 17:30:51 <oklopol> it's just you're thinking about it in implementation, the stack thing i mean, i was basically going for bnf-ish first class constructs + multilevel strings. 17:30:56 <oklopol> multilevel... hmm 17:31:08 <oklopol> meaning you would do a lot of metacoding to use the runtime parsing. 17:31:50 <oklopol> "(oklopol) then i daresay my oklotalk runtime parsing modification syntax might be further thought than yours :)" <<< this was merely to comfort me a bit, no offence to you, more to my bad luck for knowing about plof ;) 17:32:03 <GregorR> Hah 17:32:59 <GregorR> My conversation yesterday was a reiteration of this common habit of mine: 1) Completely forget about a computing topic. 2) Need said computing topic. 3) Reinvent it identically to what I pseudo-remember. 4) Bash my head into the wall when somebody say "Uh, you mean an NPDA, right?" 17:33:01 <oklopol> i'm thinking i'll really start emptying my 2-meter-long TODO list after my german + swedish exams... 17:33:19 <oklopol> hopefully we'll be seeing oklotalk and a lot of other stuff about then 17:33:39 <oklopol> or, i'll just keep talking about it, and do nothing, like i usually do. 17:34:10 <oklopol> yeah, i did some banging when i realized what PDA was, too :P 17:34:16 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: you're writing a language in an NPDA? 17:34:24 <oklopol> parser 17:34:38 <GregorR> Plof's grammar is defined entirely at runtime. 17:34:46 <oklopol> not entirely, you liar! :P 17:34:59 <GregorR> The Plof user language's grammar is defined entirely at runtime. 17:35:10 <GregorR> The Plof stack language isn't Plof, it's the Plof stack language :P 17:35:29 <oklopol> well i guess 17:35:34 <oklopol> your mother, though! 17:35:40 <oklopol> gotta go read my germans! -> 17:37:09 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: If that answers your questions at all :P 17:38:24 <GregorR> (Of course, compiling the grammar to an NPDA and running that is probably less efficient than compiling to an LALR parser, but eh :P ) 17:39:17 <GregorR> (Of course of course, there are technically grammars that an NPDA can parse that an LALR parser can not) 17:40:22 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 17:46:37 <oklopol> now that i've tried to read german for a few minutes == thought about that parsing thing for a while, i can safely say oklotalk will have a very different runtime parser system 17:47:11 <oklopol> ...and i'd kinda like to implement it now, but i can't :( 17:47:23 <oklopol> school is a waste 17:48:04 -!- boily has joined. 17:48:34 -!- boily has quit (Client Quit). 17:49:27 <GregorR> lol 17:49:44 <GregorR> Very different from Plof or very different from what's in your head now? 17:49:54 <bsmntbombdood> school is a waste 17:50:01 <GregorR> [Oh, and don't feel bad when I implement your runtime parser as a grammar for my runtime parser] 17:50:19 <bsmntbombdood> do you have something to read about this language? 17:50:39 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/plof/plof3.txt 18:00:59 <oklopol> GregorR: very different from anything that has an underlying stack language. 18:01:50 * GregorR imagines a runtime parser which transforms one grammar into another. 18:03:53 <oklopol> GregorR: basically, i changed the whole thing into something that not necesarily can be considered run-time parsing in the sense you use it. 18:04:26 <GregorR> Ah 18:04:29 <oklopol> but i'm not gonna explain it now, so all you need to know is i'm not ripping of your language :) 18:04:37 <GregorR> :P 18:06:32 <oklopol> *off 18:06:43 <oklopol> do correct me, that's your thing 18:06:47 <oklopol> ! 18:06:50 <EgoBot> Huh? 18:06:59 <GregorR> Didn't notice it, too busy actually doing work :P 18:07:17 * oklopol stabs itself 18:10:25 <GregorR> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Muaha"(_o)o.?]} 18:10:28 <EgoBot> Muaha 18:10:40 <oklopol> that speccity seems nice 18:10:50 <oklopol> what i got out of it 18:10:51 <GregorR> ? 18:10:55 <oklopol> *spec 18:11:25 <GregorR> The Plof3 spec? 18:11:40 <oklopol> if it says "to be completed" or anything resembling that, i don't examine it very closely 18:11:44 <oklopol> well yes 18:11:55 <oklopol> not many specs seen in the last few days :P 18:13:14 <oklopol> i'll look into it more once you have the interpreter ready, since that probably won't take long in your case 18:14:52 <GregorR> But, the Plof3 spec /does/ say "to be completed" or something like that :P 18:15:10 <GregorR> "this list is horrendously incomplete" in fact :P 18:15:34 <RodgerTheGreat> interesting how often "I'll finish this momentarily" becomes "I'll never finish this" on the internet 18:16:58 <GregorR> I find that things are EITHER completed immediately or never. There is no "within a month" 18:18:15 <RodgerTheGreat> sometimes projects defy that, but every time they slip onto the back burner there's a greater chance they'll never come back 18:23:00 <SimonRC> I never realised how crap mamalian lungs were 18:23:02 <SimonRC> http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/birdrespiration.html 18:32:31 <oklopol> GregorR: i've gotten a lot of things implemented within a month, though usually that has meant stalling for a few weeks, then doing it in 2 hours once i already know what to write 18:32:37 <oklopol> but that's the general case, i have to admit 18:32:46 <oklopol> also, what am i doing in irc again. 18:33:14 <oklopol> and, i meant i didn't read the spec that well exactly because it said 2to be completed" 18:33:17 <oklopol> *" 18:33:52 <GregorR> Ah :P 18:34:02 <GregorR> Typing on a Commodore 64? [joke no one will get] 18:34:30 <oklopol> wait, i'll try and get that by looking at my c64 keyboard on the floor... 18:34:38 <SimonRC> GregorR: do explain 18:34:53 <GregorR> I want to see if oklopol gets it first. 18:34:56 <SimonRC> ah, yeah 18:35:23 <oklopol> umm... this can't be my c64... it doesn't say c64 innit! 18:35:35 <oklopol> okay, explain, i seem to have lost it or something :P 18:36:46 <GregorR> Shift+2 on a C64 = " 18:37:31 <oklopol> oh 18:37:42 <oklopol> i didn't know it's ever anywhere else 18:37:48 <oklopol> 2"2" 18:37:52 <GregorR> >_O 18:37:55 <GregorR> WTF? 18:37:59 <GregorR> What keyboard layout is this? 18:38:05 <oklopol> öäöäöäåäöööåöäåöåäö 18:38:27 <oklopol> teh finnish one 18:38:35 <SimonRC> Um, shift+2 is a " here too 18:38:43 <GregorR> O_O 18:38:45 <oklopol> hah, GregorR, you're a freak! :) 18:38:49 * GregorR 's brain melts. 18:39:01 <GregorR> SimonRC: Aren't you in Britain? 18:39:05 <SimonRC> yes 18:39:07 * SimonRC makes dinner 18:39:25 <GregorR> Why the hell would a British keyboard differ from an American keyboard? >_O 18:39:35 <oklopol> but... anyway... this is an outrage! where's my c64 :<< 18:39:46 <oklopol> i guess you might not know that. 18:40:10 <GregorR> Why the hell would a British keyboard differ from an American keyboard? O_< 18:41:09 <GregorR> Well anyway, I'm right because America > you 8-D 18:42:18 <oklopol> i'd say we all lose for using qwerty 18:42:49 <oklopol> that's a brave assumption though, since i don't actually know you're using it 18:43:16 <oklopol> (and i guess it doesn't have much to do with this :P) 18:44:28 <oklopol> das Band -> die Bänder, der Band -> die Bände, die Band -> die Bands 18:44:42 <oklopol> ASDFuck with these germans 18:45:08 <oklopol> don't they understand gender is a confusing concept as it is! 18:45:24 <GregorR> ? 18:45:36 * GregorR <3 genderless languages :P 18:46:24 <oklopol> yeah, finnish ftw 18:48:09 <GregorR> English FTW 18:48:39 <GregorR> Literally. We Lingua Franca'd your arse :P 18:50:57 <oklopol> not that much 18:51:38 <GregorR> What language are we speaking? QED. 18:51:44 <oklopol> if you compare with languages that can imitate english with lesser modifications to the root words 18:52:47 <oklopol> i don't see how the fact a language is used less kills the language itself 18:53:00 <GregorR> I never claimed to have killed your language ... 18:53:09 <oklopol> i may have misinterpreter your fancy words 18:53:11 <oklopol> :P 18:53:15 <oklopol> *misinterpreted 18:53:23 <GregorR> Lingua franca = language of commerce/diplomacy/etc 18:53:27 <oklopol> i guess my ass != my language 18:53:46 <GregorR> Hahahah 18:53:56 <oklopol> the other one i speak *out of*, the other i talk *in* 18:54:01 <oklopol> *speak 18:54:15 <oklopol> there's a difference i didn't realize right away 19:44:50 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:50:12 -!- ehird` has joined. 20:02:27 <Sgeo> <GregorR> $ twopipe psoxi "egobfc2m Sgeo.bf" 20:02:27 <Sgeo> <GregorR> <Sgeo> Booting ... 20:02:27 <Sgeo> <GregorR> Segmentation fault 20:02:41 <Sgeo> What's that supposed to be? 20:03:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 20:03:40 <Sgeo> Hi ehird` 20:03:48 * Sgeo is so **** tired 20:03:48 <ehird`> hello 20:06:01 * ehird` is tired. so **** 20:06:02 <ehird`> Wait, no. 20:06:04 <ehird`> That didn't work. 20:12:33 -!- jix has joined. 20:13:24 <Sgeo> Hi jix 20:13:29 <jix> moin 20:33:35 <Sgeo> Is the core PSOX spec done? 20:34:25 * Sgeo is incredibly tired 20:39:59 * Sgeo goes to begin implementing PSOX(!) 20:59:25 -!- kwertii has joined. 21:21:26 -!- GregorR has changed nick to _D6Gregor1RFeZi. 21:22:18 <Sgeo> _D6Gregor1RFeZi, hm? 21:22:37 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Occasionally I get mangled in one of the D channels. 21:23:33 <Sgeo> D channels? 21:25:19 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Channels about the D programming language ... 21:25:47 <Sgeo> How do you get "mangled?": 21:26:36 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Uh, by typing /nick _D6Gregor1RFeZi :P 21:27:04 <Sgeo> Why did you do that? 21:27:22 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Because I was being mangled! 21:27:46 <Sgeo> ???? 21:29:10 * _D6Gregor1RFeZi suggests that Sgeo look up "Name mangling" on wikipedia :P 21:30:11 <Sgeo> Why were you being mangled? 21:31:02 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Because I felt like it! :P 21:31:06 <Sgeo> ah 21:33:39 -!- _D6Gregor1RFeZi has changed nick to GregorR. 21:39:21 <ehird`> Sgeo: _D6Gregor1RFeZi is how D would mangle GregorR into a symbol name 21:47:16 -!- interact has joined. 21:48:06 -!- importantshock has joined. 21:49:01 <importantshock> so...anyone else looked at the mediadefender source code? 21:50:03 <importantshock> i'm grepping it for naughty words 21:50:06 <importantshock> it's quite funny 21:50:24 <ehird`> heh 21:50:27 <ehird`> pastebin some samples 21:51:43 <importantshock> esoteric.pastebin.com, right? 21:51:43 <Sgeo> mediadefender? 21:51:54 <importantshock> Sgeo: Bunch of fascists bent on destroying P2P. 21:51:54 <GregorR> ? 21:52:24 * Sgeo misread taht as PSP 21:56:01 <GregorR> I love how people that are bent on destroying piracy magically become bent on destroying P2P. 21:56:01 <GregorR> The Internet is P2P people! :P 21:56:01 <bsmntbombdood> that's funny 21:56:01 <ehird`> one of the better analogies for piracy, although still flawed: "There is a machine that clones cars. Everyone has this machine, and the car companies still sell cars for lots of money. Piracy is cloning someone's car, when they give you permission to." 21:56:45 <GregorR> Manufacturers are gonna be PISSED OFF when we finally get matter replicators ^^ 2007-09-21: 00:20:55 -!- clog has joined. 00:20:55 -!- clog has joined. 00:21:01 <oklopol> :O 00:21:05 <oklopol> this wasn't logged? 00:21:08 <Sgeo> Hi clog 00:21:11 <Sgeo> oklopol, eh? 00:21:22 <Sgeo> Everything is a log! 00:21:27 <oklopol> clog logs our garbage, you know 00:21:29 <oklopol> hmm 00:21:49 <oklopol> isn't that "everything is a file" with append-only 00:22:05 <Tritonio> but how can I search about this: "if you do: cat file | readerapp and readerapp doesn't ever read the data from the stdin what happens to the data? where are they stored? how big is that buffer? blah blah" 00:22:28 <Sgeo> http://ircbrowse.com/channel/esoteric/20070920 doesn't seem to have picked things up.. 00:22:47 <GregorR> Tritonio: By searching for a page explaining UNIX pipes from top to bottom and reading away. 00:22:52 <oklopol> google will tell you what you meant if you don't type the right search terms! 00:23:00 <Sgeo> heh oklopol 00:23:13 <Tritonio> oklopol, i'll try that 00:23:15 <Tritonio> :-) 00:23:31 <oklopol> google is el magico 00:23:38 <oklopol> google is the alpha etc. 00:23:53 <GregorR> s/etc/processor/ 00:24:31 * Sgeo also needs time stuff in 0x04 00:24:49 <Sgeo> Any comments on the extra 0x00 after retrieving a line? 00:26:07 <oklopol> wow school doesn't start till 10 hours, how fun 00:26:26 <GregorR> s/till/for/ 00:26:33 <oklopol> oh indeed 00:27:04 <oklopol> i'm fairly sure i make mistakes of that magnitude a *lot* 00:27:06 <Tritonio> ok 00:27:20 <Tritonio> wikipedia had some answers 00:27:20 <GregorR> I see that one a lot ... there must be a word in most languages like "till" with no direct translation. 00:28:06 <oklopol> you use what's usually translated into "into" in finnish. 00:28:25 <oklopol> though it's a suffix here, instead of a word 00:29:08 <oklopol> "until" is quite close to the meaning 00:29:13 <oklopol> in my sentence 00:29:22 <oklopol> hmm 00:29:45 <oklopol> too late for grammar right now 00:29:50 <Sgeo> What's the differenterence between "till" and "until"? 00:30:01 <oklopol> the former is slangish 00:30:37 <GregorR> Maybe it was slang 200 years ago ... 00:30:45 <GregorR> until -> 'til -> till 00:30:49 <Tritonio> brb 00:30:50 <GregorR> All three forms are identical now. 00:31:02 <oklopol> you can use that in an english essay? 00:31:10 <GregorR> Well, I wouldn't use "'til" 00:31:18 <GregorR> But I don't think I'd get complaints for "till" 00:31:52 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 00:31:55 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 00:32:00 <oklopol> you would here 00:33:58 <oklopol> ah, "till" would've been used in my sentence if the time had been given absolutely instead of relatively 00:34:07 <oklopol> for 10 hours, but till noon 00:34:10 <oklopol> eh no... 00:34:12 <oklopol> negation... 00:34:29 <oklopol> hmmhmm 00:34:55 <GregorR> No, that's correct. 00:35:17 <oklopol> i was gradually becoming sure of that 00:35:19 <GregorR> I will not go to school for three hours. I will not go to school till noon. 00:35:35 <oklopol> yeppity 00:35:51 <GregorR> untilexp = (until|'til|till) absolutetimeexp 00:37:01 <oklopol> while i haven't actually studied english grammar, i think i know all these rules given enough time to think 00:38:47 <oklopol> here, "enough" was 10 minutes, and i'm usually about this tired 00:38:57 <oklopol> perhaps it's time for some coke -> 00:42:46 <Tritonio> has anyone heard of infon? 00:51:36 <Sgeo> What's infon? 00:52:46 <Tritonio> a game where you programs bugs' minds 00:52:49 <Tritonio> in lua 00:52:52 <Tritonio> ;-) 00:53:09 <Tritonio> wait i will find the link 00:53:36 <Tritonio> http://infon.dividuum.de/ 00:58:57 <oklopol> what the fuck 00:59:04 <oklopol> my father also knows russian. 00:59:24 <oklopol> (i recently discovered he knew polish when there was a polish guy here..) 00:59:29 <oklopol> nooga i guess 01:00:03 <Tritonio> wtf is "nooga" now??? 8-| 01:00:16 <oklopol> a guy that was on this channel 01:00:48 <Tritonio> it was a nickname thankfully then... ;-) 01:01:00 <oklopol> yes :) 01:01:06 <oklopol> i should've used quotes 01:01:35 <Tritonio> no you didn't really have to. :-) 01:01:55 * Sgeo should really work on psox 01:02:03 <oklopol> i should've used the lojban name quotes. 01:03:26 * Sgeo pokes pikhq 01:03:31 <Tritonio> this lojban? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban 01:03:41 <Tritonio> nice idea is this language 01:03:58 <oklopol> it has some nice ideas, nothing revolutionary 01:04:55 <oklopol> QUICK POLL: which of you ever made a conlang? 01:04:57 <oklopol> o/ 01:05:03 <Sgeo> conlang? 01:05:07 <Sgeo> oh 01:05:10 <oklopol> construc lag 01:05:14 <Sgeo> o\ for no? 01:05:21 <oklopol> hmm 01:05:27 <Tritonio> i made an alphabet 01:05:27 <oklopol> perhaps 01:05:34 <oklopol> an alphabet? 01:05:57 <Sgeo> I've done a lot of pseudomaths stuff, but not a conlang, afair 01:05:58 <Tritonio> a strange alphabet that uses e way to "encode" the position of the tonge teeth etc 01:05:59 <oklopol> i used to make alphabets all the time when i was a kid, i had 8 alphabets memorized 01:06:13 <oklopol> but none of my friends could memorize them so it wasn't that much fun :< 01:06:24 <Tritonio> i already have a friend that memorized it 01:06:26 <Tritonio> it's easy 01:06:36 <Sgeo> Including numbers that had negative absolute values.. 01:06:43 <Tritonio> because if you remember the rules you can draw the symbols on your own 01:07:16 <oklopol> my friends weren't all that old at that time... 01:07:38 <Tritonio> and it is suppossed to be able and encode sound form different languages as well 01:08:07 <oklopol> hmm, i've been contemplating on something similar to that 01:08:12 <oklopol> do you have anything online? 01:08:32 <Tritonio> oklopol, are you talking to me? 01:08:36 <oklopol> yeah 01:08:42 <Tritonio> oklopol, to me???? 01:08:45 <oklopol> yeah 01:08:49 <Tritonio> :-D 01:08:49 <oklopol> ya rly 01:08:58 <Tritonio> i have a few images i think 01:09:00 <Tritonio> wait. 01:09:23 <Tritonio> the link will start like this... http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~asimakias/img/ 01:09:25 <Tritonio> and then... 01:09:42 <oklopol> 404! 01:09:44 <Tritonio> proglogo.png 01:09:46 <Tritonio> i know 01:09:54 <Tritonio> i havn't finished writting the link 01:09:57 <oklopol> http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~asimakias/img/proglogo.png 01:09:59 <Tritonio> yeap 01:10:03 <Tritonio> try it 01:10:09 <oklopol> 404! 01:10:14 <Tritonio> ooops 01:10:16 <Tritonio> mistake 01:10:28 <Tritonio> http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~asimakis/img/proglogo.png 01:10:35 <oklopol> it cannot find HTTP 404 01:10:36 <Tritonio> i misspelled my last name. lol 01:11:00 <oklopol> hihi smileyyy 01:11:17 <Tritonio> ? 01:11:24 <oklopol> second from the right 01:11:35 <Tritonio> that sounds like "m" in "mouse" 01:11:52 <Tritonio> the two dots are the nose. and dots mean sound. 01:12:00 <Tritonio> the horizontal line are the lips closed 01:12:03 <Tritonio> closed lips 01:12:08 <Tritonio> and sound from the nose. 01:12:09 <oklopol> oh, so it really is a face. 01:12:14 <Tritonio> kind of 01:12:51 <GregorR> Now I'm looking at the other ones and seeing if similar hinting helps :) 01:13:05 <GregorR> (It does not ;) ) 01:13:09 <Tritonio> i know... 01:13:13 <Tritonio> the first on 01:13:17 <Tritonio> one* ... 01:13:23 <Tritonio> is P 01:13:37 <Tritonio> like Prozak 01:13:46 <Tritonio> to lips apart 01:13:49 <Tritonio> two* 01:14:02 <oklopol> hmm... is that "p" there aspirated.. 01:14:07 <oklopol> GregorR: TELL ME! 01:14:15 <oklopol> i think it is 01:14:21 <GregorR> oklopol: It looks pretty aspirated to me in that picture ;) 01:14:21 <Tritonio> and the vertical line means sudden movement. 01:14:29 <Tritonio> like moving your lips appart suddenly 01:14:35 <Tritonio> that what you do to spell P 01:14:53 <GregorR> It seems like you've gone a bit far with the actions ... half of these could be implicit. 01:14:55 <oklopol> GregorR: i meant in "prozak" :P 01:15:12 <GregorR> oklopol: Oh - English has no aspirated 'P' so fleh :P 01:15:17 <oklopol> whut? 01:15:21 <Sgeo> aspirated? 01:15:28 <oklopol> then i'm using the wrong term. 01:15:29 <Tritonio> how can P be aspirated? 01:15:35 <Sgeo> What's aspirated? 01:15:39 <oklopol> you say "ph" instead of "p". 01:15:46 <Tritonio> Aspirate As"pi*rate, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Aspirated; p. pr. & 01:15:47 <Tritonio> vb. n. Aspirating.] [L. aspiratus, p. p. of aspirare to 01:15:47 <Tritonio> breathe toward or upon, to add the breathing h; ad + spirare 01:15:47 <Tritonio> to breathe, blow. Cf. Aspire.] 01:15:47 <Tritonio> To pronounce with a breathing, an aspirate, or an h sound; 01:15:47 <GregorR> That's not aspirated. 01:15:47 <Tritonio> as, we aspirate the words horse and house; to aspirate a 01:15:49 <Tritonio> vowel or a liquid consonant. 01:15:51 <Tritonio> [1913 Webster] 01:15:53 <oklopol> yeah 01:15:54 <oklopol> p 01:15:55 <GregorR> Arrrrrrrgh 01:15:56 <oklopol> p 01:15:57 <oklopol> .. 01:15:58 <Tritonio> ph is another sound 01:16:01 <Tritonio> it's not p 01:16:02 <oklopol> p's aspirated then. 01:16:06 <oklopol> in english 01:16:12 <GregorR> oklopol: ph = f 01:16:17 <Tritonio> in greek it is Φ 01:16:21 <oklopol> yes, but i meant that one phonetically 01:16:22 <Tritonio> ph=Φ 01:16:28 <Tritonio> ok 01:16:39 <GregorR> oklopol: I assure you, the English P is not aspirated. 01:16:49 <oklopol> a-ha. 01:16:52 <Tritonio> anyway the picture sais "programs" 01:16:53 <oklopol> then what's the term? 01:16:56 <Tritonio> says* 01:16:58 <oklopol> for the "h" you add there 01:17:36 <GregorR> oklopol: The pronunciation of the sound 'p' alone is aspirated because that's the only way you can pronounce it alone. 01:17:53 <GregorR> oklopol: Well, that you can pronounce it and be heard anyway :P 01:18:00 <GregorR> oklopol: But it's not pronounced in actual speech. 01:18:03 <Tritonio> oklopol, as for the impicit thing you mentioned. I didn't like to leave things implicit. so that everyone by applying the rules can decode the symbols. 01:18:04 <GregorR> Erm, aspirated X_X 01:18:17 <oklopol> the aspiration is there in the word "pay" for example. 01:18:30 <oklopol> you say [phei] 01:18:34 <GregorR> Hmmm, not in my pronunciation ... 01:18:42 <Tritonio> neither in mine 01:18:48 <oklopol> i can make you a sound clip. 01:18:49 <Tritonio> :-) 01:19:29 <GregorR> Let me put it this way: The English language does not make a distinction between aspirated and unaspirated consonants. Whether any individual aspirates in any particular word is their accent, not the language. 01:19:43 <oklopol> http://www.answers.com/topic/pay?cat=biz-fin <<< p-h-ei. 01:19:59 <oklopol> americans have them aspirated. 01:20:00 <Tritonio> ancient greek had a nice way to organize sounds... 01:20:33 <GregorR> Now that's a highly aspirated pronunciation of that word X-D 01:20:42 <GregorR> I don't think I pronounce it like that in casual speech. 01:20:51 <Tritonio> lolol 01:20:54 <GregorR> Maybe, Idonno X-D 01:20:59 <bsmntbombdood> P is aspirated 01:21:09 <oklopol> you do use it, though it's less audible in fast speech, naturally. 01:21:15 <Tritonio> it's like the name fei 01:21:25 <oklopol> you notice the difference if i do the finnish non-aspirated version. 01:21:57 <oklopol> if you only know how to make an aspirated "p", it may be hard to think of it as "aspirated" 01:21:59 <GregorR> Sound clip! Blargh! 01:22:05 <Tritonio> i think that answers has made these recordings with a text-2-speech program 01:22:11 <Tritonio> so don't rely on them 01:22:15 <oklopol> GregorR: that was an example 01:22:19 <oklopol> Tritonio: no 01:22:22 <oklopol> i doubt that 01:22:23 <GregorR> No, of non-aspirated. 01:22:42 <oklopol> GregorR: was that a correction to what i said? 01:22:56 * Sgeo wants to hear the clip of non-aspirated.. 01:23:02 <GregorR> oklopol: Give me a sound clip of a non-aspirated P and an aspirated P for comparison. 01:23:15 <bsmntbombdood> i can't pronoucne a P without aspiration 01:24:42 <oklopol> i'm not sure if that was a good one, i get a bit of a ramp frenzy or whaddyacallit 01:25:50 <oklopol> hard to pronounce english and only leave out the aspiration 01:26:02 <GregorR> So don't say an English word *shrugs* 01:26:03 <oklopol> but you should hear a clear "pee" without aspiration in the end. 01:26:18 <GregorR> OK, so post it 01:26:20 <oklopol> it's already uploaded, too late! 01:26:49 <GregorR> Then give us the URL! :P 01:27:01 <oklopol> http://vjn.fi/oklopol/r/urinating.wav 01:27:06 <oklopol> i'm slow! 01:27:17 <oklopol> that's a bad recording, for i don't exactly have a mike. 01:27:26 <GregorR> Wait, that's the sound 'b' 01:27:46 <oklopol> no. 01:28:20 <oklopol> someone with a non-aspirated "p" in their language would notice the difference. 01:28:25 <bsmntbombdood> urinating.wav? 01:28:35 <bsmntbombdood> this is gonna be good. 01:28:35 <oklopol> sorry for the example sentence 01:28:56 <GregorR> To my ear, that sounds identical to 'b'. 01:29:12 <bsmntbombdood> yeah 01:29:19 <bsmntbombdood> you said bee 01:29:50 <bsmntbombdood> and it was an aspirated b, too 01:29:58 <bsmntbombdood> and that's a hot accent 01:30:00 <oklopol> http://vjn.fi/oklopol/r/pebe.wav 01:30:32 <GregorR> Wow, there is a difference O_O 01:30:36 * GregorR 's brain melts. 01:30:44 <GregorR> I have no idea how to make that sound. 01:30:55 <oklopol> i'm fairly sure i did it correctly in the first clip too.l 01:30:57 <oklopol> *-l 01:31:01 <GregorR> And now I'm leaving for home :P 01:31:16 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: the first part or the second? 01:31:27 <bsmntbombdood> the normal one 01:31:46 <oklopol> if you can spot abnormalities in it in an explicit way, do elaborate 01:31:55 <bsmntbombdood> huh? 01:31:58 <oklopol> i rarely get the chance to enhance my pronunciation 01:32:27 <oklopol> s/the/a 01:32:29 <bsmntbombdood> oh, no, it's pretty subtle 01:33:39 <oklopol> i wish i had american irl contacts, i'm sure i could perfect it with training (i guess there's not many lunatics who'd be willing to hone it with me.) 01:34:08 <bsmntbombdood> record something in your native lang 01:34:12 <oklopol> why? 01:34:23 <bsmntbombdood> no reason 01:34:27 <oklopol> kay. 01:34:36 <oklopol> that's the best reason i can think of 01:34:40 <oklopol> what should i say? 01:35:07 <bsmntbombdood> uhh 01:35:10 <oklopol> (i do pretty good german/swedish too!) 01:35:25 <bsmntbombdood> "fuck me gently with a chainsaw. i like the way the blades feel on my genitals" 01:35:37 <oklopol> okay, wait a mo 01:36:09 * Sgeo should go eat now.. 01:37:45 <oklopol> http://vjn.fi/oklopol/r/terat.wav 01:38:35 <oklopol> (also remind me to advertise my bands in case i haven't done that yet) 01:38:43 <bsmntbombdood> ooh i found a mic 01:38:57 <oklopol> nice, try and repeat that 01:39:17 <bsmntbombdood> but have no clue how to record 01:39:45 <oklopol> audacity? 01:40:35 <bsmntbombdood> audacity gives me a nice little error when it starts 01:40:44 <bsmntbombdood> "you will not be able to play or record anything" 01:41:35 <oklopol> i have a "sound recorder" program built-in 01:41:38 <oklopol> in ubuntu that is 01:41:42 <bsmntbombdood> genitales? 01:41:47 <bsmntbombdood> lol. 01:41:49 <oklopol> "genitaaleillani" 01:42:05 <bsmntbombdood> whoa 01:42:25 <oklopol> the native word would be sukupuolielimilläni 01:43:11 <oklopol> nussi minua hellästi moottorisahalla 01:43:11 <oklopol> terät tuntuvat ihanilta genitaaleillani 01:43:23 <oklopol> is what i say 01:47:51 <bsmntbombdood> wow this mic sucks 01:48:08 <oklopol> i'm using a millimeter-in-diameter hole in my laptop for a mike. 01:52:56 <oklopol> oh 01:53:13 <oklopol> btw, i can tell you the exact difference of unaspirated "p" and "b" 01:53:30 <oklopol> it's pretty simple, the vocal cords only do their humming in "b" 01:54:05 <oklopol> i think i didn't say that earlier 01:54:08 <oklopol> can't be sure though 01:58:47 <bsmntbombdood> almost the whole sound of p is in the lips 01:59:18 <oklopol> yes 01:59:31 <oklopol> and "b" is the exact same except it's... what's the word... 02:00:52 <oklopol> asdf i wanna find it... 02:01:22 <oklopol> voicing. 02:02:48 -!- chatty has joined. 02:03:26 <oklopol> hi chatty! 02:03:35 <oklopol> gotta go do some quick business -> 02:04:01 <chatty> "/?" 02:10:35 <oklopol> /quit 02:19:27 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 02:22:33 <oklopol> half my book read \o/ 02:25:26 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 02:30:49 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:40:59 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 02:44:16 <oklopol> head feels weird, gotta sleep for a while 02:44:21 <oklopol> cya -> 03:12:25 -!- cmeme has quit (Excess Flood). 03:13:03 -!- cmeme has joined. 03:18:58 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:27:12 <Sgeo> Hi oerjan 03:27:20 <Sgeo> brb 03:27:55 <bsmntbombdood> how can cmeme excess flood? 03:32:07 <oerjan> it did? 03:32:34 <bsmntbombdood> [20:11] * cmeme has quit (Excess Flood) 03:34:26 <Sgeo> Question? Should PSOX functions that provide file descriptors return the descriptor, or accept a descriptor number from the client and use it if available? 03:35:24 * Sgeo is leaning towards 'return'.. 03:35:29 <Sgeo> Any thoughts 03:52:59 -!- chatty has left (?). 04:37:05 <RodgerTheGreat> hey guys- I'm making random comics again! 04:37:12 <RodgerTheGreat> enjoy: 04:37:23 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190338381-deal.png 04:37:27 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190345208-winds.png 05:21:17 <GregorR> I think I have a proper NPDA implementation. But I think it won't halt if you have a particularly stupid grammar, like a = a | epsilon 05:21:37 <GregorR> That is, any grammar that can accept an infinite string of nothing actively. 05:22:02 <GregorR> Erm, wait, I meant a = a a | epsilon 05:22:19 <GregorR> Anything that can resolve to an infinite number of epsilons. 05:22:24 <GregorR> I guess that's not a big problem X-P 05:22:50 <GregorR> Anyway, it will halt in every other scenario, it detects possibly-infinite recursion. 05:28:38 <oerjan> removing epsilons can be done as a preprocessing stage on the grammar 05:30:30 <GregorR> Is that true of all context-free grammars? I don't remember such a transformation 8-O 05:30:58 <oerjan> you can remove all except those on the initial token 05:31:10 <GregorR> Don't tell me, let me work it out. 05:31:18 <GregorR> I can probably reinvent this wheel :P 05:33:45 <GregorR> Oh, of course. 05:33:46 <GregorR> For each left that has an epsilon as an option on the right, remove the epsilon then add an option to each right containing that left. 05:34:16 <GregorR> Wow, that sentence made zero sense :P 05:34:19 <GregorR> But I get it :P 05:34:26 <bsmntbombdood> i think it made sense 05:34:32 -!- zuzu_ has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:34:32 -!- sekhmet has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:34:42 <bsmntbombdood> RodgerTheGreat: are those scanned? 05:34:49 <RodgerTheGreat> yes 05:34:55 <RodgerTheGreat> why do you ask? 05:35:07 -!- zuzu_ has joined. 05:35:07 -!- sekhmet has joined. 05:35:25 <bsmntbombdood> how did you get them to look decent? 05:35:33 -!- oerjan has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:35:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:35:47 <bsmntbombdood> whenever i scan a drawing there's smudges, dust, etc 05:36:31 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: not much- a little white correction, I scaled it down, and I flattened the color map a little 05:36:50 <bsmntbombdood> the ink could be blacker 05:37:02 <bsmntbombdood> and i don't know what that means *_* 05:37:02 <RodgerTheGreat> I think a fair amount has to do with my scanner itself 05:37:07 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: easily done 05:38:16 <RodgerTheGreat> problem is, in inks like this it can lead to a somewhat rough look. 05:38:46 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190349064-deal2.png 05:38:58 <RodgerTheGreat> lemme try compensating... 05:39:36 <bsmntbombdood> i love the guy's face in frame 5 05:40:02 <RodgerTheGreat> haha 05:40:51 <oerjan> GregorR: note that you need to find out which tokens can be epsilons, it is not enough to look for literal ones 05:41:23 <RodgerTheGreat> here- I tweaked my filters a bit. That should give you more of what you wanted: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190349207-deal3.png 05:42:10 <bsmntbombdood> hmm 05:42:10 <RodgerTheGreat> all of these were drawn on cheap printer paper with an "ultra-fine point" sharpie 05:42:14 <RodgerTheGreat> haha- the irony 05:42:17 <oerjan> at least i think it is easier that way. 05:42:38 <RodgerTheGreat> It sure as hell doesn't seem to "ultra-fine" in comparison with my .02mm technical drawing pens 05:43:06 <bsmntbombdood> .02mm O.o 05:43:10 <bsmntbombdood> O.o * 27 05:43:25 <bsmntbombdood> and i thought my .3mm pencils were fine 05:43:42 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, I love my 3mms 05:43:59 <bsmntbombdood> 3mm??! 05:44:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I was so happy when I found out that the MTU book store not only carries .3mm lead, but they have it in the entire hardness range! 05:44:26 <RodgerTheGreat> sorry, typo 05:44:30 <bsmntbombdood> oh 05:45:08 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:47:37 <RodgerTheGreat> but I think by far my favorite drawing tool for causal work is a Pilot G2 gel pen. 05:48:03 <RodgerTheGreat> It feels and covers paper like a rollerball, with the precision of a ballpoint 05:48:41 -!- SEO_DUDE85 has joined. 05:48:52 <RodgerTheGreat> I wouldn't use it for anything I was planning to publish, but it has a nice feel for sketches 05:49:14 <bsmntbombdood> i need to get some pens 05:49:31 <RodgerTheGreat> Micron and Pilot are where it's at 05:50:28 <bsmntbombdood> i've heard good things about Rotring 05:50:36 <RodgerTheGreat> their pens are pretty decent 05:50:40 <RodgerTheGreat> a little expensive 05:52:59 <bsmntbombdood> ---> bed 06:01:00 <bsmntbombdood> gah 06:01:12 <bsmntbombdood> this "getting up at different times each day" is not working 06:07:59 <RodgerTheGreat> 'night guys 06:12:00 -!- kwertii has quit (Client Quit). 06:54:34 <GregorR> I missed something in my NPDA interpreter, and it's really effing difficult to fix :( :( :( 06:55:07 <GregorR> My infinite recursion detector can't backtrack properly :( 07:44:55 -!- kwertii has joined. 07:57:14 -!- kwertii has quit (Client Quit). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:04:13 <GregorR> !!!!!!!!!!! 08:04:15 <GregorR> It works! 08:04:17 <GregorR> It wooooooooorks! 08:04:17 <EgoBot> Huh? 08:04:42 <GregorR> It's a bit complicated, but it's pretty damn fast, detects infinite loops, and PARSES STRINGS INTO ANYTHING 8-D 08:06:13 <GregorR> I feel fairly accomplished right now 8-D 08:07:55 <GregorR> I'm parsing simple math strings into numbers ... WITH AN NPDA 08:08:00 <GregorR> OK, time for sleep :P 09:22:58 <oklopol> cool 09:24:47 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:25:22 <oklopol> GregorR: in case you're already parsing the parsing rules from plof stack language code, do show the code for math expressions 09:25:32 <oklopol> once you wake up, that is 09:25:37 <oklopol> school -> 09:34:51 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lunch"). 11:45:47 -!- notzeb has joined. 12:12:40 <SimonRC> GregorR: NPDA == slow 12:17:27 <oklopol> what's faster? 12:41:32 <SimonRC> PDA, of course 12:42:39 <oklopol> ah 13:00:39 -!- notzeb has quit ("/lurk"). 13:19:39 -!- SEO_DUDE85 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:25:43 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 14:36:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:47:20 <GregorR> NPDAs can't be universally translated into PDAs, can they? I would think that the stack actions munge up the translation rules. 14:47:35 <GregorR> (@ SimonRC ) 14:49:15 -!- jix has joined. 15:03:38 <SimonRC> no 15:04:11 <SimonRC> though D and ND FSMs are equivalent 15:05:34 <bsmntbom1dood> NPDAs can be converted to TAs! 15:05:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:05:56 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:05:59 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 15:08:33 <oerjan> NPDA's can parse general context-free grammars. deterministic PDA's can only parse LR(k) grammars or thereabouts. 15:08:40 <SimonRC> I know that 15:08:50 <SimonRC> bsmntbom1dood: what is "TA"? 15:10:11 <oklopol> turing-armadillos 15:14:29 <SimonRC> ?! 15:14:57 <bsmntbom1dood> tape automaton 15:15:25 <SimonRC> you mean Turing Machine? 15:15:31 <bsmntbom1dood> no! 15:15:47 <SimonRC> what then? 15:22:30 <bsmntbom1dood> a finite state machine combined with a tape 15:23:47 <oerjan> and how is that not exactly what one usually calls a Turing machine? 15:25:10 <SimonRC> indeed 15:25:18 <GregorR> *concurrence* 15:25:25 <SimonRC> ? 15:25:38 <GregorR> That a state machine + a tape = a Turing machine. 15:25:58 <SimonRC> an, not concurrancy 15:26:14 <GregorR> No, but to concur ;) 15:26:23 <SimonRC> indeed 15:27:16 <GregorR> Unfortunately, I found a bug in my logic when making the infinite loop detection *sigh* 15:27:34 <GregorR> It can be fixed, but it's another layer of complexity and I don't have 100% certainty that this is the last one >_> 15:28:08 <SimonRC> so, you are trying to solve the Halting Problem... 15:28:16 <GregorR> This is an NPDA, the halting problem is solvable. 15:28:30 <SimonRC> ah, ok 15:28:47 <GregorR> It's just a bit more of a PITA than the halting problem for NFSMs ^^ 15:30:02 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:30:23 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 15:31:23 <GregorR> Anyway, it fails with grammars that have multiple infinite paths ending up at the same node, e.g. L = A | B | epsilon ; A = L "enda" ; B = L "endb" 15:31:38 <SimonRC> small WTF: Why can the address only be changed at this email-forwarding place at 7.15 am? 15:31:42 <GregorR> Fixable (I can detect multiple infinite paths), but I'm not confident that it's the last such problem I'll run into X_X 15:31:46 <GregorR> Hahaha 15:31:56 <GregorR> They probably have a cronjob that makes mass changes :P 15:31:59 <SimonRC> "This will take effect from 7.15 am tomorrow / this morning." 15:32:00 <GregorR> Pretty lame though X-D 15:32:03 <SimonRC> :-S 15:32:27 <oerjan> so you did not consider the epsilon-removing transformation? 16:06:12 <SimonRC> *walk 16:06:16 <SimonRC> ops 16:06:18 * SimonRC goes for a wak. 16:07:27 <oerjan> this is disturbing. SimonRC's last three messages seemed to come in reverse order. 16:07:54 <oerjan> i had thought that at least between two given points things would be queued... 16:25:32 <GregorR> oerjan: My current work has nothing to do with the epsilon-removing transformation, that's up to the grammar->NPDA converter. 16:26:27 <GregorR> oerjan: A naive converter will always be capable of creating an NPDA that this can't detect loops in, but that's not a big problem since a good converter can indeed be written *shrugs* 16:30:17 <oerjan> ok 16:31:25 <GregorR> It's just not worth it to make it that general, I just heed it for the specific case of compiled grammars :) 16:31:25 * oerjan needs a wak too 16:32:06 <oerjan> right 16:32:46 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined. 16:32:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("Out"). 16:33:19 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has left (?). 16:37:13 <GregorR> I'm also starting to think that the case I discovered this morning isn't useful ... I'm finding it difficult to imagine a grammar legitimately written like that :P 16:37:49 <GregorR> And I suppose even it could be solved by removing left recursion. 16:38:27 <GregorR> Oh wait ... argh ... never mind, just figured out the simple case :( 16:38:42 <GregorR> addexp = mulexp | addexp + mulexp | addexp - mulexp 16:38:54 <GregorR> Multiple possible recursions through addexp. 16:42:46 -!- SEO_DUDE85 has joined. 16:58:56 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined. 17:01:52 <UnrelatedToQaz> hey 17:02:00 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has left (?). 17:08:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:11:44 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined. 17:20:26 -!- navaburo has joined. 17:20:55 <navaburo> anyone seen Keymaker lately? 17:21:06 <navaburo> i found his BFSDL 17:39:16 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has left (?). 17:43:44 <oklopol> nope 17:43:58 <oklopol> he only does brief visits about once a month 17:45:55 <oklopol> • SimonRC goes for a wak. <<< i misinterpreted this 17:53:20 <GregorR> Hahahah 17:55:02 <oklopol> (someone had to say it! :|) 17:58:50 <oklopol> http://mirror.servut.us/flash/bearhello.swf 17:58:52 <oklopol> genius 17:59:43 <oerjan> it didn't get better when i googled wak 17:59:51 <oerjan> http://www.edenfantasys.com/masturbators/masturbation-sleeves/wak-pak-2000 18:02:27 <oerjan> mad genius, apparently 18:04:03 <oklopol> "waterproof, so you could take it to the shower or pool." 18:04:09 <oklopol> that'd be a hit in a pool party! 18:04:35 <oklopol> hey guys, come check this out, you can masturbate AND see your penis AT THE SAME TIME! 18:05:08 * oklopol should read german grammar 18:22:47 <bsmntbom1dood> lolo 18:22:50 <bsmntbom1dood> "wak pak" 18:23:14 <bsmntbom1dood> it's like those little things little kids put on their arms in the pool 18:25:22 <GregorR> Only with more masturbation. 18:27:36 <g4lt-sb100> so you can have a moose knuckle in every set of pants :/ 18:36:43 <bsmntbom1dood> http://boingboing.net/images/countyfair.jpg 18:36:49 <bsmntbom1dood> ^^ little girl likes big dick 18:37:41 <bsmntbom1dood> beucj bsnbtvbinvdiid' 18:37:44 <bsmntbom1dood> errrr 18:37:49 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 18:38:30 <GregorR> ........................................................ 18:38:42 <GregorR> Has bsmntbombdood turned into a spambot? 18:38:48 <bsmntbombdood> what? 18:39:08 <oerjan> beick bsmbtvbombdood ? 18:40:00 <g4lt-sb100> no, he just forgot typing to grind stupid web tricks 18:40:30 <oerjan> most of it makes sense if i assume his right hand was placed 1 key to far left 18:40:39 <oerjan> but not all 18:40:41 <oerjan> *too 18:42:53 <GregorR> I was talking about "<bsmntbom1dood> ^^ little girl likes big dick" 18:42:57 <GregorR> That's spambotty :P 18:45:11 <g4lt-sb100> GregorR, did you view the link? 18:45:30 <GregorR> I'm at work, I don't anticipate such a link to be SFW :P 18:45:46 <g4lt-sb100> speaking of which, bsmntbombdood you now owe me for the liquor I need to forget that 18:46:06 <oklopol> internet rule x: nothing is offensive on teh internet 18:47:30 <g4lt-sb100> internet rule y: nothing may be offensive, but there are a lot of things you need large quantities of liquor and/or eyebleach to forget 18:48:11 <GregorR> My NPDA takes .75 seconds to parse "1+2*3+4*5+6*7+8*9+10" 1000 times >_> 18:49:19 <oklopol> GregorR: sounds slow 18:49:24 <GregorR> Yeah :( 18:49:32 <oklopol> actually, really slow :| 18:49:41 <oklopol> in case you're using D 18:49:48 <GregorR> Damned backtracking. 18:50:00 <oklopol> i can try what my python numbda interpreter takes 18:50:21 <GregorR> Well, that's not fair, it's not an NPDA :P 18:50:54 <oklopol> :) 18:50:59 <oklopol> i'll still try, for i have no idea 18:51:08 <oklopol> just wanna know what it takes 18:53:31 <oklopol> 1.78667931259 secs. 18:53:42 <GregorR> Ohhhhhhhh, burn ;) 18:53:48 <oklopol> i'll try what my math parser takes 18:53:50 <GregorR> Of course, that's not fair because your is in Python :P 18:54:05 <oklopol> yes, and definately not written efficiency in mind 18:54:22 <GregorR> This /was/ written with efficiency in mind to a certain degree :( 18:54:34 <GregorR> I did some nasty things with D dynamic arrays that should not be done ;) 18:55:52 <oklopol> that takes a second 18:56:04 <oklopol> argh 18:56:11 <oklopol> now i wanna make a C parser... 18:56:13 <oklopol> i mean 18:56:21 <oklopol> a math expression parser in C :P 18:56:57 <oklopol> i definately don't wanna make a C parser 18:57:10 <GregorR> It's still not really fair since a simple math expression parser can't parse everything that an NDFA can ... 18:57:11 <oklopol> hmm, i'll try my java parser 18:57:16 <GregorR> s/NDFA/NPDA/ 18:57:24 <oklopol> i do know that, that's not my point 18:57:44 <oklopol> my point is to know if it's faster, like it's supposed to be since it's more spesific. 18:57:44 * GregorR just likes to complain ;) 18:57:51 <oklopol> :P 18:58:44 <GregorR> Strangely, this seems to be increasing linearly with longer expressions ... everything I know about NPDAs tells me this should be increasing exponentially... 18:59:45 <bsmntbombdood> why are you using a npda? 19:00:21 <GregorR> Because the alternative is to arbitrarily limit the grammars, and that's a bit tough to do. I may not use an NPDA if it turns out to be too bad. 19:02:55 <oklopol> argh, i hate how java libraries always manage to lack everything one might actually need 19:03:25 <GregorR> Hey wait, does your math parser actually come out with an answer in the end? :) 19:03:31 <oklopol> python: "time python" into google, and on the first link a nice clock-function that gives a nice timestamp you can compare 19:03:36 <oklopol> GregorR: it did. 19:03:41 <oklopol> though i ignored it 19:03:45 <GregorR> Heh 19:03:52 <oklopol> hmm... i may have disabled that :O 19:03:54 <oklopol> i'll retry 19:05:33 <oklopol> 0.98 without evaluation, 1.05 with it 19:05:39 <oklopol> 1000 times that is 19:05:47 <GregorR> Naturally 19:06:48 <bsmntbombdood> http://i7.tinypic.com/5z6vt4n.jpg 19:06:52 <bsmntbombdood> sfw for GregorR 19:07:27 <GregorR> WTF?! 19:07:38 <GregorR> For only $29.99, you can get access to some of the Internet! 19:08:13 <bsmntbombdood> includes access to over 60 websites!! 19:08:27 <GregorR> Wow! Over 60?! 19:08:36 <GregorR> That's so many web sites I don't know what to do! 19:10:11 <GregorR> I should make this parse right->left instead of left->right 19:10:27 <GregorR> Then parsing left-recursive grammars, which are by far and away more common, would be more efficient. 19:11:00 <GregorR> Where's my RR(1) parser anyway ^^ 19:11:12 <oerjan> what would anyone want to access google for if they cannot access the results? :D 19:12:01 <oerjan> brain damage within brain damage 19:12:35 <bsmntbombdood> google cache! 19:12:41 <oerjan> ooh 19:13:01 <GregorR> I'll bet it can't access that. 19:13:04 <GregorR> Not at the hostname google.com 19:17:30 <oklopol> GregorR: the java one takes 31ms 19:17:57 <oklopol> took a bit to find a way to get a nice enought timestamp for java 19:18:01 <bsmntbombdood> either GregorR or oklopol needs to change their nick 19:18:17 -!- oklopol has changed nick to OklopoL. 19:18:19 <bsmntbombdood> i can't be having you to be the same color! 19:18:20 <OklopoL> better? 19:18:22 <bsmntbombdood> yes 19:18:37 <bsmntbombdood> now it's yellow and purple 19:18:47 -!- OklopoL has changed nick to oklokok. 19:18:50 <bsmntbombdood> i should write a smart nick coloring algorithm 19:19:01 <oklokok> what's this one? 19:19:03 <oerjan> >_< 19:19:05 <oklokok> i didn't like the caps. 19:19:10 <bsmntbombdood> light blue-greenish 19:19:34 <oerjan> polkadot! 19:19:41 <bsmntbombdood> it would make nicks of similar length farther apart in color 19:19:59 <oklokok> GregorR: 25 times faster than yours, and it's in JAVA, complain THAT :) 19:20:20 <GregorR> It's a hyperlimited parser you cheating loser! 19:20:44 <GregorR> *stab* 19:21:10 * oklokok lols as he dies of blood loss 19:22:04 <oklokok> the python parser was pretty generic, though not as much so as yours 19:22:54 <oklokok> hmm... i'm pretty sure i've made at least *one* math expression parser in C... 19:23:37 <oklokok> unfortunately most of my programs are named by whacking the keyboard a bit to produce a unique random string 19:23:47 <GregorR> lol 19:23:59 <oerjan> O_O 19:24:32 <oklokok> usually when i start coding, i don't have anything spesific in mind... so i just use a random name 19:25:23 <oklokok> i mean, was like that in my c/c++ time, nowadays i just do python, since c takes longer to write :( 19:26:52 <bsmntbombdood> do scheme! 19:27:09 <oklokok> omg, i found a stack language interpreter here :DD 19:27:19 <oklokok> wonder if that's any good... 19:28:26 <oklokok> ...brainfuck while loops in a stack language ftw. 19:30:11 <GregorR> The time taken to memoize my REs is equal to the time taken to run the REs X-P 19:31:44 <oklokok> wow, my wireworld implementation 19:32:04 <oklokok> i wonder how much stuff i've done i've completely forgotten about 19:37:18 <Sgeo> REs? 19:37:24 <GregorR> regexes 19:37:32 <Sgeo> Ah 19:44:47 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:03:34 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 20:08:37 -!- Arrogant has joined. 20:11:13 -!- Arrogant has quit (Client Quit). 20:11:52 -!- Arrogant has joined. 20:23:05 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 20:34:08 <GregorR> I figured out how to fix my problem with multiple infinite recursions! 20:34:23 <GregorR> I'm already encapsulating the concept of infinite patterns on the stack... 20:34:38 <GregorR> To support this, I just need to encapsulate the concept of infinite^infinite patterns on the stack! 20:34:44 <GregorR> (Which is actually really easy) 20:39:45 <bsmntbombdood> weird how a PDA isn't turing complete, even though it has unbounded storage 20:40:02 <GregorR> Well, it has heavily-bounded access :) 20:41:48 -!- RedDak has joined. 20:53:47 <GregorR> Implemented with no change in time ^^ 20:53:57 <GregorR> (And unit tests still passing) 20:55:22 <oklokok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p454332531.txt <<< in case you can decipher that, do you like that program structure? 20:55:59 <oklokok> the actual program logic is in the form of a bnf-ish list regex (not clearly visible there...) 20:56:09 <oklokok> "bnf-ish list regex"... anyway. 20:57:39 <oklokok> the last line defines the program as a finite state machine 20:57:47 <GregorR> I can't parse that :P 20:57:50 <oklokok> darn 20:57:59 <oklokok> which part exactly? 20:58:11 <GregorR> Mostly the last line. 20:58:21 <oklokok> the three first ones are function definitions 20:58:25 <oklokok> ah, wait 20:58:26 <GregorR> Incidentally, your description reminds me of Plof's runtime grammars :P 20:58:36 <GregorR> s/grammars/grammar/ 20:58:36 <oklokok> really? 20:58:46 <oklokok> that is the oklotalk list regex syntax :) 20:59:08 <GregorR> They are defined as a BNF with both the symbol list and generations. 20:59:32 <GregorR> addexp = addexp /\+/ mulexp => 3 1 "opAdd" dot call 20:59:42 <GregorR> So as it parses, it compiles. 20:59:57 <GregorR> Your desc reminded me of that, but that may be invalid :P 21:00:11 <oklokok> ´[/input_number (quit_on_zero | out_doubled recurse)] ´ means the "regex" is run by executing one function at a time, x | y means "execute either x or y", and whitespace separation just means that you do the functions in sequence 21:00:35 <oklokok> () is normal nesting 21:00:45 <oklokok> those names in the regex are function calls 21:01:05 <oklokok> scoping is dynamic when using ...i don't know what to call that, but that kind of calls. 21:01:46 <oklokok> since it's nice to have a global access to stuff or the fsm for the program flow will become cluttered with argument passing... 21:02:35 <oklokok> basically that means, first input a number, then either quit if the input number was zero, or print that number doubled start over 21:02:58 <oklokok> so that'd be a simple command line program to ask numbers and multiply them by two 21:03:46 <oklokok> that can be done much simpler using other constructs, i know, but i kinda like my idea for a program structure, that fsm thing i mean 21:04:06 <oklokok> since usually the program flow is simple and stateful 21:04:31 <oklokok> did you manage to parse that? 21:05:10 <oklokok> [/ ... ] denotes a list regex 21:09:25 <oklokok> hehe, it's actually wrong. 21:09:36 * GregorR is still confused, but is also at work :P 21:09:39 <oklokok> i'll change it if someone points out the error :P 21:09:41 <oklokok> oh 21:09:49 <oklokok> my friend just glanced at it and got it :| 21:10:13 -!- CShadowRun has joined. 21:10:35 <CShadowRun> Please say "Hello, World!" 21:10:53 <CShadowRun> meh, that wikipedia article lied :( 21:11:34 -!- CShadowRun has left (?). 21:11:37 <oklokok> :) 21:12:37 <GregorR> ............. 21:12:40 <GregorR> *stab* 21:12:56 <GregorR> (There isn't even a Wikipedia article on it :P ) 21:13:01 <oklokok> yeah :D 21:13:56 <oklokok> GregorR: wanna specify what's obscure about that code? unless you're too busy 21:14:20 <GregorR> I guess I'm not so much confused by what each of the constructs are, but by what the whole thing actually /does/ 21:14:26 <oklokok> ah 21:14:32 <oklokok> (oklokok) so that'd be a simple command line program to ask numbers and multiply them by two 21:14:39 <oklokok> the last line 21:14:44 <oklokok> hmm... 21:14:51 <oklokok> didn't i say that already... 21:15:00 <oklokok> ´[/input_number (quit_on_zero | out_doubled recurse)] ´ means the "regex" is run by executing one function at a time, x | y means "execute either x or y", and whitespace separation just means that you do the functions in sequence <<< is this obscure? 21:15:16 <oklokok> the names there are function names, the functions defined above 21:15:18 <GregorR> Aha, now I get it. 21:15:22 <oklokok> good 21:15:25 <oklokok> well, any comments? 21:15:37 <GregorR> So, some "consumptions" can actually just be actions, and others actually consume something. 21:15:41 <oklokok> i kinda like that general idea for program structures 21:15:48 <GregorR> Yeah, that's exactly like Plof's runtime grammar :P 21:15:52 <oklokok> that isn't used for any kind of parsing there 21:15:58 <oklokok> that might've confused you 21:16:03 <GregorR> It isn't? >_O 21:16:11 <oklokok> well, it kinda consumes the stdio 21:16:14 <oklokok> nope. 21:16:17 <oklokok> it's the program logic 21:16:36 <GregorR> Right, but the program logic is written into a parser, as I see it... 21:16:41 <oklokok> you would do games etc. the same way 21:16:54 <oklokok> you'd write the states in a list regex 21:16:58 <oklokok> and iterate that 21:17:18 <GregorR> OK, I'm getting it better now. 21:17:47 <GregorR> Is this intended to be esoteric? 21:18:03 <oklokok> well, in that it's a new concept (i mean, i don't know it exists yet) 21:18:20 <oklokok> also, oklotalk looks like line noise when used correctly. 21:18:30 <oklokok> i've just denoicified it to be pretty 21:18:37 <oklokok> i'm aiming for pretty design, ugly code. 21:18:39 <oklokok> :P 21:18:45 <GregorR> That's a fundamental difference between oklotalk and Plof X-P 21:18:54 <oklokok> heh, yeah 21:18:56 <GregorR> Although Plof stack code is pretty ugly ... unless you like Forth. 21:19:56 <oklokok> well, you can do anything in a clean way if you want in oklotalk, in case you find that code example anywhere close to clean 21:20:33 <oklokok> *everything 21:21:29 <oklokok> i think that state thing is a more fundamental difference than what code looks like... since even though i concocted that this morning, i'm aiming at making it the *gist* of oklotalk 21:22:00 <GregorR> Well, certainly the entire design is a /more/ fundamental difference ;) 21:22:09 <oklokok> hehe, yeah :P 21:24:57 <oklokok> i don't remember what similarities i found earlier between oklotalk and plof, can i see a plof user language spec? 21:25:08 <oklokok> or was that integrated in the stack language spec? 21:25:39 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/plof/ < look at the Plof2 spec. The Plof3 user language will be similar. 21:25:59 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/plof/npda.d // my NPDA interpreter (now actually published) 21:27:25 <oklokok> Unlike C and other imperative languages, functions in Plof exist only as 21:27:25 <oklokok> anonymous entities - they are not implicitly associated with names. Giving a 21:27:25 <oklokok> function a name is simply assigning it to a variable. 21:27:43 <oklokok> these similarities seem less revolutionary now that i've studied a bit more theory... 21:27:49 <GregorR> Hahahah 21:27:56 <oklokok> :P 21:28:10 <GregorR> That's pretty common for functional languages, it's only interesting because Plof is not a functional language per se. 21:28:26 <oklokok> that was one of my "great ideas" for oklotalk, but i now realize plof isn't the only language besides oklotalk that has only lambdas for functions... 21:28:45 <oklokok> yeah 21:28:45 <GregorR> Heh 21:28:48 <GregorR> How about only having functions for blocks? :) 21:29:05 <oklokok> i think that was a great idea for an imperative language 21:29:08 <GregorR> (Also exceedingly common for functional languages) 21:29:42 <oklokok> oklotalk is functional, i guess, though it depends highly on message passing, which might be considered a bit different 21:29:51 <oklokok> you can use it oo-ish 21:30:59 <oklokok> when i read about that block thing, it felt like an exaplanation for blocks, which is why i think it seemed like such a nice idea 21:31:06 <oklokok> *explanation 21:31:22 <oklokok> i mean, explanation for blocks as found in languages like C 21:32:29 <oklokok> a lot of the stuff i found great about plof i later found in perl ;) 21:32:39 <GregorR> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 21:32:44 <GregorR> Perl is so baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad :( 21:33:26 <oklokok> well, plof exclusively has perl stuff i found great about perl 21:33:35 <oklokok> i found 90% of perl complete bullshit 21:34:40 <oklokok> that prototype model for one 21:34:56 <oklokok> i mean 21:35:00 <oklokok> that was nice :) 21:35:12 <oklokok> i should be more careful how i connect my sentences 21:35:15 <oklokok> aasdfasdfasdf 21:35:19 <oklokok> also, i should eat something 21:35:21 <GregorR> Why the hell are prototypes implemented so poorly in so many languages? X_X 21:35:38 <oklokok> i don't know many languages with prototypes, so hard to say :| 21:35:53 <GregorR> JS is the prime example. 21:35:55 <oklokok> plof did that absolutely brilliantly, btw 21:36:02 <GregorR> You're damn right it did ;) 21:36:09 <oklokok> that was something i actually considered stealing :) 21:36:11 <GregorR> <-- no humility :P 21:36:25 <oklokok> but i've found a different way to do it in oklotalk 21:36:43 <oklokok> not necessarily better, but different :) 21:37:21 <oklokok> (i'm willing to go great lengths to avoid making stuff primitive, it should all arise from the perfectness of the core language!) 21:37:37 <oklokok> ...or perfection 21:37:45 <GregorR> (Irony :P ) 21:38:31 <GregorR> That's the core reason for my runtime grammar: I want integers to be a runtime-defined type. 21:38:51 <oklokok> what's primitive in plof? 21:39:00 <oklokok> "BYTE"? :P 21:39:14 <GregorR> I'm going to have the primitive types in Plof3, but they won't be exposed to the user language. 21:39:28 <oklokok> oklotalk even has stuff like "import" for modules non-primitive :) 21:39:38 <oklokok> that might be considered ugly. 21:39:54 <GregorR> Which? 21:39:59 <oklokok> mine 21:40:04 <GregorR> Ah :P 21:40:28 <oklokok> since that's something you absolutely want to be a compile-time error, for one :) 21:41:19 <oklokok> oklotalk only has runtime errors, no other, because of the heavy meta-programming, compile-time errors would only take you sofar anyway 21:41:26 <oklokok> and syntax errors are simply impossible. 21:41:47 <GregorR> Heh, syntax errors are definitely possible in Plof :P 21:41:59 <GregorR> If you type $$$?!?!??@#!$#$#HAWHAW it will be quite failurific ;) 21:42:08 <oklokok> not in oklotalk 21:42:16 <oklokok> that *might* just be considered ugly too.l 21:42:18 <oklokok> *-l 21:42:34 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving"). 21:42:43 <oklokok> that would be a compile-time warning, most likely, unless the interpreter is for obfuscation purposes :) 21:43:14 <GregorR> Ha ha ha, "compile time" 21:43:15 <GregorR> ;) 21:43:34 <oklokok> i do very random hyphenation :P 21:43:48 <oklokok> but natives do that so much i really don't even know the rules for every case 21:43:51 <GregorR> Uh, that hyphen was correct, actually. 21:44:01 <GregorR> I was laughing at the concept of having a compile time ;) 21:44:19 <oklokok> :P 21:44:24 <oklokok> ah 21:44:30 <oklokok> because of "interpreter"?` 21:44:44 <oklokok> ah 21:44:47 <GregorR> No, because Plof rolls compilation into runtime (with the runtime grammar) :P 21:44:50 <oklokok> because i could never make a compiler? :) 21:44:52 <oklokok> ah 21:44:58 -!- possible248 has joined. 21:45:07 <oklokok> fuck, i find two possible meanings for your joke and it's neither. 21:45:14 <GregorR> Hahahah 21:45:23 <oklokok> oh 21:45:25 <oklokok> i found 3 21:45:44 <GregorR> Aaaaaaaaaanyway ... when I get home, I'm doing more performance-testing of this NPDA. 21:45:52 <GregorR> I want to really see how much I'm losing on LALR (for example) 21:45:59 <oklokok> LALR? 21:46:14 <GregorR> Gooooooooooooooogle is your friend :P 21:46:24 <oklokok> oh 21:46:32 <GregorR> (LALR is the kind of parser that Bison/Yacc makes) 21:47:11 <oklokok> i thought you meant something like garbage collection 21:47:21 <oklokok> i've actually heard LALR 21:47:55 <GregorR> My poor grammar in that sentence probably helped none 8-D 21:48:02 <GregorR> s/losing on/losing with respect to/ 21:48:49 <oklokok> yep, though it might've been "in" if it'd had something to do with locating the bottleneck in your code 21:48:58 <oklokok> instead of "on" 21:50:11 -!- possible248 has left (?). 21:50:35 <oklokok> umm... js did function == object? 21:51:05 <oklokok> i mean, you used "function" to create an object 21:51:09 <GregorR> Yeah 21:51:41 <oklokok> i understand doing function==object, but if you have a keyword "function"... 21:51:52 <oklokok> ...why not make it mean a function? 21:52:04 <GregorR> I can understand doing the opposite, making functions be a kind of object. 21:52:15 <GregorR> But what they did was make an object be the leftover state from a function. 21:52:19 <oklokok> yeah 21:52:24 -!- kwertii has joined. 21:52:33 <GregorR> uiop 21:54:48 <oklokok> how does js do inheritance? 21:54:56 <oklokok> i can google that too i guess :) 21:56:38 * GregorR reappears. 21:56:46 <GregorR> Pretty similarly to Plof, you can combine objects. 21:56:52 <oklokok> function subClass() { 21:56:52 <oklokok> this.inheritFrom = superClass; 21:56:52 <oklokok> this.inheritFrom(); 21:56:52 <oklokok> this.bye = subBye; } 21:56:58 <oklokok> that is some ugly shit if you ask me 21:57:07 <GregorR> Yuh. 21:57:19 <GregorR> I thought you could + objects? 21:57:32 <oklokok> in case that inheritFrom is a keyword or smth 21:57:32 <GregorR> I guess not ... I haven't actually used JS's object system extensively, because it makes me cry. 21:58:08 <GregorR> No, inheritFrom isn't a keyword, it's taking advantage of the difference between new someCall() and someCall() 21:58:22 <oklokok> hmm 21:58:42 <oklokok> you could have had this.iF = superClass; ? 21:58:48 <GregorR> Sure. 21:58:51 <oklokok> ah 21:59:13 <oklokok> that's some weird name scoping... 21:59:30 <GregorR> You're basically giving yourself the other constructor, but as just a function, then calling it. 21:59:32 <oklokok> well, normal dynamic scoping i guess 22:00:35 <oklokok> js does duck-typing, right? 22:00:50 <oklokok> or am i totally misinterpreting that weird function assignment that's going on 22:01:13 <oklokok> not weird, really, but anyway 22:01:36 <GregorR> Yeah, JS is duck-typing only. 22:01:49 <GregorR> Unlike Plof which keeps type history to allow for static typing when preferable. 22:02:04 <oklokok> yep 22:08:07 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:15:47 <Sgeo> http://www.glumbert.com/media/highpower 22:15:47 -!- ehird` has joined. 22:24:49 -!- Arrogant has joined. 22:34:43 <GregorR> For reasons I may never understand, my NPDA parser seems to be operating with linear complexity ... even though that's impossible. I need a more complex grammar :P 22:36:41 <ehird`> Quick, publish your code 22:36:48 <ehird`> You may have discovered how to do the impossible! 22:37:01 <ehird`> You'll be famous amfous! 22:37:11 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/plof/npda.d :P 22:37:37 <GregorR> I guess my grammar is just not complicated enough. It has left recursion, which is the mark of slowocity, but apparently it's not slow enough. 22:48:22 <ehird`> So uh 22:48:26 <ehird`> why do you want slow 22:48:31 <ehird`> linear complexity = yaey 22:48:39 <ehird`> even if it IS impossible.. 22:48:45 <GregorR> I want to see what the true complexity of this parser is. 22:48:59 <GregorR> I need a grammar sufficiently complex that this will approach its maximum order. 22:49:22 <ehird`> it's clearly the first O(n) parser ever 22:49:48 <GregorR> I'll bet Forth's parser is O(n) ;) 22:50:58 <ehird`> yes, the identity function is generally O(n) 22:50:59 <ehird`> :) 22:51:02 <ehird`> actually, O(1) 22:51:05 <ehird`> forth's parser is O(1) 22:51:14 <GregorR> Eh, Forth still needs to /tokenize/ 22:51:38 <oklokok> my bitxtreme parser is O(1) 22:52:54 <ehird`> GregorR: Yeah, but that's not parsing 22:52:54 <oklokok> code.split("") 22:53:02 <ehird`> oklokok: that's O(n)... 22:53:05 <oklokok> nope. 22:53:08 <ehird`> um, yes 22:53:17 <ehird`> split is O(n) 22:53:18 <oklokok> in the general case, yes. 22:53:33 <ehird`> GregorR: please tell oklokok why his parser is O(n) i can't be bothered 22:53:36 <oklokok> bitxtreme, however, is a bit more *extreme* 22:54:16 <GregorR> bitxtreme has an equal upper and lowerbound on the length of the program. 22:54:26 <oklokok> ehird`: it's O(1), it's not O(n) because that split will always be splitting a string of length 2 22:54:36 <ehird`> oh, ok 22:54:43 <ehird`> oh 22:54:44 <ehird`> bitxtreme 22:54:45 <ehird`> heh 22:54:46 <ehird`> that thing 22:54:49 <GregorR> So, I think it would be reasonable to say that it's in O(n), but n is actually a constant, so O(1) :P 22:55:13 <oklokok> BITXTREME IS TC 22:55:22 <ehird`> :p 22:55:27 <GregorR> (Within the limits of bounded memory) 22:55:38 <oklokok> well, obviously. 22:55:48 <oklokok> but that's somthing you need to live with 22:55:53 <oklokok> in a finite universe 22:55:57 <oklokok> *something 22:56:34 <oklokok> uh, it's no extreme... i need more wine -> 22:56:39 <oklokok> s/no/so 22:56:39 <oklokok> ... 22:56:40 <oklokok> -> 23:04:35 <oklokok> GregorR: do you know perl? 23:04:41 <GregorR> Sadly. 23:05:03 <oklokok> it does prototypes quite like plof, right? 23:05:16 <oklokok> or was it duck-typed too, i forget :| 23:05:30 <GregorR> It does classes with duck typing. 23:05:48 <oklokok> but isn't there a similar inheritance tree as in plof? 23:05:58 <oklokok> or did i imagine that :) 23:06:43 <GregorR> Well yeah, but that's just because it has classes :P 23:07:42 <oklokok> oh, i guess i totally remember it wrong, i'll do some reading now 23:07:44 <oklokok> okokokokoko. 23:09:20 <oklokok> Functions are passed by 23:09:20 <oklokok> value, but the only mutable part of a function is the scope in which it will be 23:09:20 <oklokok> run 23:09:37 <oklokok> how freely can you change that? 23:09:54 <oklokok> hmm 23:10:11 <oklokok> i mean, do you have access to the variable environment? 23:10:15 <oklokok> or whuzzit called 23:10:35 <GregorR> The "scope" :P 23:10:44 <GregorR> I had intended for you to be able to set it explicitly. 23:10:51 <GregorR> Like foo.scope = someobject; 23:10:54 <GregorR> I may have even implemented that ;) 23:11:03 <oklokok> well... i guess... but i don't think of "scope" as a generic name->value dictionary 23:11:09 <oklokok> but a more abstract thingie 23:13:55 <oklokok> hmm... why are ++ and -- both pre- and postfix? 23:14:16 <oklokok> or is C-ity that important? 23:14:24 <GregorR> I'm giving up on that. 23:14:27 <GregorR> I decided that was lame. 23:16:18 <oklokok> good, because i'd have had to tell you that ;) 23:18:08 <oklokok> the spec isn't too clear about booleans... there's no "boolean" primitive, but you say stuff like "evaluates to true" 23:18:18 <oklokok> hmm, you might explain what evaluates to true and what doesn't 23:20:11 <oklokok> Assign the value to the given lval. Note that, unlike in C, this 23:20:11 <oklokok> operator evaluates to void: That is, expressions such as 23:20:11 <oklokok> a = b = c 23:20:11 <oklokok> are invalid. 23:20:13 <GregorR> I'm pretty sure I /do/ explain what evaluates to true and what doesn't. 23:20:15 <oklokok> are you sure about that? 23:20:26 <oklokok> i'm pretty sure you do, too 23:20:31 <oklokok> i just usually talk before i think 23:20:42 <oklokok> but, i don't think that's correct there :) 23:21:27 <GregorR> Non-zero numbers, non-empty strings == fasle 23:21:30 <GregorR> Erm 23:21:32 <oklokok> unless "=" doesn't specify evaluation direction and it has to be explicitly parenthesized 23:21:34 <GregorR> Wow, that wasn't right X-D 23:21:41 <oklokok> hah! :) 23:21:59 <GregorR> Zero, empty strings and void = false 23:22:03 <GregorR> Everything else = true 23:22:13 <oklokok> Note that this void value is not illegitimate. It can be assigned to a 23:22:13 <oklokok> variable, it can be tested, and it has a truth value (it is false). 23:22:26 <oklokok> That is, expressions such as a = b = c are invalid. 23:22:40 <oklokok> either must be wrong 23:22:45 <oklokok> i think 23:22:56 <GregorR> That's an excellent point. I do believe the expression a = b = c works, actually, it just isn't useful. 23:23:06 -!- RedDak has joined. 23:23:24 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:23:34 <GregorR> I'd have to verify that, but not right now. 23:23:37 -!- RedDak has joined. 23:23:57 <oklokok> is "=" left-to-right of right-to-left? 23:23:58 <oklokok> oh 23:24:13 <oklokok> you might not have specified that in case you didn't realize that's legal... 23:24:14 <GregorR> Oh yeah! 23:24:17 <GregorR> That's why it fails! 23:24:21 <oklokok> ah 23:24:24 <oklokok> it's no longer an lvalue 23:24:26 <GregorR> EVERYTHING is left->right 23:24:29 <oklokok> yep 23:24:36 <oklokok> i got that at the same instant you did 23:24:39 <GregorR> So that's (a = b) = c 23:24:42 <GregorR> Heh :P 23:25:04 <oklokok> but i'm drunk, so i must be cleverer than you! 23:25:13 <oklokok> :P 23:25:17 <GregorR> I'm at work, paying more attention to work than this convo :P 23:25:39 <oklokok> i could make excuses for hours. 23:26:15 <oklokok> "at work"? 23:26:26 <oklokok> do you mean making plof or actual work? 23:26:41 <GregorR> A job. 23:26:44 <GregorR> For which I get paid. 23:26:49 <GregorR> And do not write Plof :P 23:26:55 <oklokok> what do you do? 23:27:06 <GregorR> None o' your business X-P 23:27:10 <oklokok> :) 23:27:25 <oklokok> i see i see 23:29:17 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 23:46:37 <ehird`> GregorR: x = "blah" = y 23:46:38 <ehird`> hm 23:46:38 <ehird`> no 23:48:10 <oklokok> x = (y = "blah") would work 23:51:20 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:52:42 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving"). 2007-09-22: 00:18:09 -!- edwardk has joined. 00:18:23 * edwardk waves hello. 00:20:35 <oklokok> hi 00:21:00 <edwardk> how goes? 00:21:15 <oklokok> fine i guess 00:21:33 <oklokok> doing some work on my language 00:21:44 <edwardk> which one is that? 00:22:16 <edwardk> i'm sitting here doing basically the same with a stripped down version of mine as well =) 00:23:09 <edwardk> which i guess could basically be described as a haskell without types at this point 00:23:13 <oklokok> oklotalk, my everlasting project 00:23:22 <edwardk> cute name 00:23:25 <oklokok> hehe 00:23:49 <oklokok> that's what happens when you don't think of a name for your language and someone asks what the name is... 00:23:58 <edwardk> heh 00:24:09 <oklokok> and your nick is oklo*o* 00:24:24 <edwardk> mine has gone through a few names, so i typically just refer to it as 'my toy language' =) 00:24:55 <edwardk> nuel, kata, catalan, opt, and spec have all be the name at some point 00:25:09 <oklokok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p454332531.txt <<< it's heavily based on finite state machines that are introduced via a regex-like syntax 00:25:15 <oklokok> heh 00:25:19 <edwardk> i dropped nuel coz its no longer a curry howard correspondence of the display logic 00:25:23 <edwardk> kata is still in the running 00:25:27 <edwardk> catalan is an actual language ;) 00:25:36 <edwardk> opt and spec are still open 00:25:38 <edwardk> i dunno 00:25:42 <edwardk> just need to pick something ;) 00:25:45 <oklokok> "opt" and "spec" are kinda reserved for other usage 00:25:48 <edwardk> yeah 00:25:54 <edwardk> and there is spec# 00:25:57 <oklokok> not that that has ever stopped anyone :) 00:26:05 <oklokok> (C, D...) 00:26:08 <edwardk> they acronymed nicely into what i was doing 00:26:31 <edwardk> and the running joke of my friends is that my language name is 'x, where x is a variable to be determined later' 00:27:26 <edwardk> however, the acronym's for those describe the full language design and not the kinda fun stripped down version that i'm playing with now 00:29:26 <oklokok> what's stripped? 00:29:34 <edwardk> so what is the premise of oklotalk? =) 00:30:12 <edwardk> types =) 00:30:31 <edwardk> its a language where i was exploring substructural type systems to start with, thats where the humor lies 00:30:40 <oklokok> uh, what's a premise? :) 00:30:43 <edwardk> since its all about type safety =) 00:31:06 <RodgerTheGreat> my main "pet" languages have been "Synthesys", "Lojo" and "Sprocket", the third of which was actually fully implemented. 00:31:10 <RodgerTheGreat> Lojo got pretty close 00:31:29 <RodgerTheGreat> and Sprocket incorporates the best ideas from Synthesys in a more usable fashion, so no loss there 00:31:33 <oklokok> yeah, i've read every conversation you've had about your language on this channel, edwardk, though i haven't understood more than a third :) 00:31:50 <edwardk> basically at this point in time i'm trying to see if i can rederive most of the power of a traditional type theory through flow analysis and a simplist theorem prover over a basic universal type 00:32:03 <RodgerTheGreat> interesting 00:32:47 <RodgerTheGreat> I started out with imperative designs, drifted into stack-based variants, and am now finding myself designing increasingly functional-style languages 00:32:53 <edwardk> i had started building up over a pretty powerful base type system, which didn't leave the theorem prover much to do, so i figured it was a more interesting result to see not if i could augment the power of a type system, but instead how much of it i could supplant 00:32:57 <edwardk> yeah 00:32:59 <oklokok> i'm trying to find a way to check for straights in tic-tac-toe using my language... 00:33:04 <oklokok> :P 00:33:23 <RodgerTheGreat> oklokok: I've never seen a particularly elegant algo for that in any language 00:33:25 <edwardk> i went sort of the same path, i went imperative, drifted into computer algebra system designs, and now i'm functional with lazy semantics and optimistic evaluation 00:33:42 <oklokok> RodgerTheGreat: do link 00:33:42 <RodgerTheGreat> the board is too small to really optimize the problem for without increasing overhead 00:33:51 <RodgerTheGreat> ? 00:34:01 <oklokok> gimme url, that is :) 00:34:08 <RodgerTheGreat> for what? 00:34:15 <oklokok> for that elegant algo 00:34:25 <RodgerTheGreat> go back and reread what I said 00:36:59 <RodgerTheGreat> :) 00:37:26 <RodgerTheGreat> "I've never seen a particularly elegant algo..." 00:38:42 -!- ehird` has quit. 00:39:05 <oklokok> whooops 00:39:34 <edwardk> oklo: in any event i've currently got none of the type features enabled including the substructural things, so its not that hard to understand its current behavior its more or less haskell and erlang's bastard child. 00:39:44 <RodgerTheGreat> oklokok: lol 00:39:52 <oklokok> i'm doing it the brute force way first, since the technique i'm using is still under constructino 00:39:56 <oklokok> *construction 00:40:12 <RodgerTheGreat> edwardk: my language "Sprocket" is the bastard child of LISP and PostScript. :D 00:40:18 <edwardk> heh 00:40:27 <oklokok> RodgerTheGreat: as you prolly guessed, i read that without the "never" 00:40:39 <oklokok> "any" sounded kinda weird there indeed :) 00:40:57 <oklokok> edwardk: i see 00:41:11 <oklokok> have you done any implementing? 00:41:42 <edwardk> what i have right now is that anything starting in upper case is a 'constructor' ala haskell's data constructors, and you can specify an arity for them, and use pattern matching primitives, and a trick to make monads work without types. 00:42:51 <edwardk> yeah quite a bit. i had an interpreter and theorem prover for the full language working, now i have an interpreter i've been toying with for the stripped down language that i figure i'll sit down and finish up this weekend since i want to rewrite the parser completely to strip out the remnants of the old logic 00:44:00 <edwardk> what i need to get right is the pattern matcher since i use a strange rule when compared to haskell or language's like that, because my rule lets me work around my lack of typeclasses 00:44:16 <edwardk> and still provide haskell like 'magic ints' and 'overloaded' operators, etc. 00:44:50 <RodgerTheGreat> how much of the language is intended to be primitive, versus synthetic? 00:44:54 <oklokok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p645463521.txt <<< checking for lines is currently done in an ugly prolog way :) 00:45:02 <edwardk> in this version? not much =) 00:45:02 <oklokok> hopefully i'll find a better way tomorrow. 00:45:33 <oklokok> i'm fairly sure you can't decipher that, but it's a graphical tic-tac-toe with 3x3 array 00:45:47 <RodgerTheGreat> I can understand some parts of it 00:46:03 <oklokok> "end" is pretty cluttered. 00:46:18 <oklokok> i'm gonna enhance the list regex syntax a *lot* 00:46:26 <edwardk> its got a pattern match dispatcher, and primitive bigint support through GMP. assignment is primitive, beyond that most traditional language features, if, booleans, etc. are built up in the language 00:46:38 <oklokok> it's just i invented that feature this morning, so it's a bit undeveloped yet :PO 00:46:40 <oklokok> *:P 00:46:56 <edwardk> heh at one point in time i had a typecheck operator and subtyping operator defined in the language in two lines of code =) 00:46:57 <edwardk> x <: x 00:47:11 <oklokok> i read some of your code 00:47:21 <edwardk> x : y | type x <: y 00:47:41 <oklokok> you do almost everything synthetically 00:47:43 <RodgerTheGreat> the following is a fairly unreadable but completely valid fibonacci sequence generator in Sprocket: [clear 1 disp 0 1 !fibo ] :run [copy rollup add copy disp copy 144 nequ [!fibo] if ] :fibo 00:47:45 <edwardk> i guess the code that was there wont make a lot of sense unless you know and love monads 00:47:55 <oklokok> which i find great 00:48:09 <edwardk> i am glad you like =) 00:48:20 <RodgerTheGreat> this is a bit easier to understand: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1190418036.html 00:49:36 <oklokok> edwardk: that was a slow continuation to "(oklokok) you do almost everything synthetically", not to monads, i'm pretty neutral about those ;) 00:49:49 <edwardk> i kinda figured 00:49:55 <oklokok> good, just checked 00:50:12 <edwardk> the monad stuff is just so that i can evaluate lazily and not get tripped up 00:50:34 <oklokok> RodgerTheGreat: in oklotalk, [\1 1 {!-_+!--_}] is a fib generator :) 00:51:12 <oklokok> [\1 1{!-_+!--_}] if that space seemed like too much :P 00:52:06 <RodgerTheGreat> oklokok: the Sprocket version is still quite efficient. 00:52:38 <RodgerTheGreat> I've considered adding single-character versions of all the basic keywords, which ought to make some simple things a lot more compact 00:53:10 <edwardk> fibs = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) 00:53:19 <edwardk> er 00:53:30 <edwardk> in my setting those colons become semicolons but otherwise its the same 00:53:54 <RodgerTheGreat> how does that generate output? 00:54:02 <oklokok> oklotalk will own pretty much any language in that exact sequence since i designed iterators to fit that purpose ;) 00:54:10 <edwardk> well, that is an infinite list so access any portion of it as needed 00:54:17 <RodgerTheGreat> oklokok: ah, cute 00:54:40 <oklokok> i did that for fun, then realized that's nice for many other uses too 00:54:43 <edwardk> main = putStrLn (take 20 fibs) would show the first few in haskell 00:54:50 <RodgerTheGreat> edwardk: hm. I'm thinking it'd be a little hard to directly compare that with another language. 00:55:09 <oklokok> edwardk: my code was also an infinite list, though codata has to be done in an explicit way in oklotalk 00:55:09 <edwardk> well if you just want a fib function rather than a generator list 00:55:56 <edwardk> fib 0 = 1;; fib 1 = 1;; fib n = fib (n - 1) + fib (n -2) 00:56:00 <edwardk> but thats kinda boring =) 00:56:09 <RodgerTheGreat> heh 00:56:25 <oklokok> and you'd do (out ([\1 1{!-_+!--_}] ! (0..10))) for the first 11 numbers 00:56:28 <edwardk> the one above memoized that naive definition doesn't 00:56:40 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm thinking my creation is the closest to a normal language of the bunch 00:57:03 <edwardk> so a memoized functional version in my setting would be 00:57:14 <edwardk> heh 00:57:16 <edwardk> actually 00:57:23 <edwardk> nevermind i forgot i was overloading list accesses 00:57:29 <edwardk> so fibs 12 should just work above 00:57:37 <RodgerTheGreat> ooh, thunder and lightning outside 00:57:47 <RodgerTheGreat> I like watching the rain 00:57:51 <edwardk> since a list used as a 'function' is a function taking a number and returning its nth element 00:58:01 <oklokok> in oklotalk, there's no difference 00:58:02 <edwardk> (1;2;3;Nil) 1 = 2 00:58:43 <oklokok> ´[1 2 3 4](3) means you're interpreting the list as a function, and taking 4th element 00:58:51 <oklokok> (parens are optional) 00:59:05 <oklokok> hmm 00:59:17 <oklokok> (1;2;3;Nil) 1 = 2 <<< this is your language, not haskell, right? 00:59:19 <edwardk> in my case use of any type as the function in an application can be allowed 00:59:28 <edwardk> in my language yeah 00:59:39 <edwardk> i can overload application 00:59:54 <edwardk> so arrays and lists take positions to dereference 00:59:58 <edwardk> stole the trick from arc 01:00:34 <edwardk> also means you can pass in lists or arrays directly when something expects a function from nats (or in the array case anything indexable) to values. 01:01:02 <edwardk> so er.. 01:01:04 <edwardk> map fibs fibs 01:01:05 <edwardk> works =) 01:01:51 -!- ihope has joined. 01:02:23 <oklokok> hmm 01:02:47 <oklokok> "nats"? 01:02:54 <edwardk> natural numbers 01:02:58 <edwardk> 0, 1, 2, + 01:03:05 <edwardk> shorthand, sorry 01:04:08 <oklokok> my bad, should know everything. 01:04:20 <oklokok> even the contents of your head 01:04:26 <edwardk> arity 1 Succ;; type Zero = Nat;; type (Succ n) | type n == Nat = Nat 01:04:28 <edwardk> =) 01:04:34 <oklokok> hmm... that tic-tac-toe bugs me... 01:04:47 <oklokok> i don't want prolog, i want something beautiful 01:04:58 <oklokok> something fucking clever :P 01:05:08 <edwardk> =P 01:05:09 <oklokok> i guess i'm onmy own there 01:05:11 <oklokok> *on my 01:05:17 <ihope> An arity keyword? What a travesty. 01:05:32 <edwardk> its a constructor based language without types 01:05:41 <edwardk> thats the only way i can tell you how many arguments that constructor takes 01:05:47 <edwardk> goes alongside infixl and infixr 01:06:50 <edwardk> any constructor without a specified arity has arity 0, so now anything that starts with an upper case letter is a constructor even with nothing else said 01:07:19 <ihope> Without types? 01:07:22 <edwardk> yeah 01:07:39 <edwardk> monads without types, its fun =) 01:07:52 <ihope> So what's the "type" keyword do if there are no types? 01:07:58 <edwardk> type there is a function =) 01:08:32 <edwardk> which takes the value Zero and returns the value Nat, and returns Nat when the condition is met in the second case above 01:09:07 <RodgerTheGreat> hey, ihope 01:09:24 <ihope> Oh. 01:09:35 <edwardk> you can do pretty much everything you want without adding 'type' to the language its just kinda useful for getting haskell-like typeclasses to work 01:09:50 <oklokok> it's useful for optimization too, i guess 01:09:59 <edwardk> coz how to overload + * /, etc? 01:10:12 <ihope> What's type Nat? :-) 01:10:27 <edwardk> a pattern match failure unless you specify =) 01:10:38 <edwardk> type Nat = Type;; type Type = Type 01:10:48 <edwardk> there now it has an impredicative type tower 01:10:58 <edwardk> or 01:11:00 <ihope> Impredicative type power? 01:11:21 <edwardk> arity 1 Type;; type Nat = Type 0;; type (Type n) = Type (n + 1) 01:11:24 <ihope> s/what I said/what I meant/ 01:11:30 <edwardk> that would make it predicative 01:11:43 <ihope> I see. 01:11:52 <ihope> Is this language lazy? 01:11:54 <edwardk> basically there are two ways to define a type system with multiple layers 01:11:54 <edwardk> yeah 01:13:28 <edwardk> one way you can define it has the sorts of types being types, and the other has them being kinds, and its whether the sort of kind is kind or superkind, and if that hierarchy keeps going up that tells you if you are predicative or impredicative. 01:14:26 <edwardk> in this setting i don't care about type systems, since they aren't needed to make monads work =) 01:14:56 <edwardk> arity 1 Ok;; return = Ok; Ok x >>= f = f x gives us an identity monad 01:15:22 <edwardk> mzero = Nil;; Nil >>= f = Nil together with the above gives us maybe 01:16:25 <edwardk> and rely on the monad laws to make 'Ok' work 01:16:30 <edwardk> for other monads 01:20:13 <edwardk> is that an actual section marker symbol i see in that oklotalk code as part of the language? 01:20:21 <oklokok> hmm 01:20:28 <oklokok> what symbol? 01:20:33 <edwardk> before succeed and fail 01:20:50 <oklokok> § 01:20:53 <oklokok> yes. 01:21:00 <oklokok> currently using it for atoms 01:21:09 <edwardk> ahh 01:21:23 <oklokok> might change in case it's hard to access in non-finnish keyboards 01:21:29 <edwardk> so you don't have to deal with something like my upper case first letter rule 01:21:38 <oklokok> you do. 01:21:45 <edwardk> i used to use ' marks to note the beginning of an atom 01:21:50 <oklokok> lower-case first letter = parsed as a function 01:21:51 <edwardk> but that got noisy 01:21:59 <oklokok> upper-case = parsed as a value 01:22:07 <edwardk> ah 01:22:10 <oklokok> § in the beginning = parsed as an atom 01:22:15 <edwardk> coz you're strict 01:22:34 <oklokok> what? 01:22:46 <oklokok> i don't see how that has anything to do with it 01:22:48 <edwardk> the need to have separate value and function roles 01:23:05 <oklokok> i just need to know what is a function and what is a value because everything is infix/prefix parsed 01:23:06 <edwardk> same reason that ML has val and fun or whatever 01:23:26 <oklokok> any sequence of "funcokens" and "objokens" is valid 01:23:30 <oklokok> if you use my terminology 01:23:51 <oklokok> 5+3+4 == 5p3p4 if you do p=+ first. 01:24:02 <oklokok> it's not about strictness 01:24:40 <oklokok> or then i'm misunderstanding something. 01:25:00 <oklokok> it's just there's no difference between operators, functions and lambdas 01:25:36 <oklokok> so you can do infix and prefix with lambdas as well as with operators 01:25:45 <edwardk> well, the issue as i'm thinking of it is why c has to have separate functions and value types. you need to distinguish between int foo() { ... } and int foo 01:26:10 <edwardk> whereas in a lazy language you don't have a need for a value/function distinction 01:26:43 <oklokok> you need to know whether "A B" means a list of A and B or "apply A to B" 01:26:55 <oklokok> a B means a (B), whereas A B means [A, B] 01:27:07 <oklokok> adjacent objokens mean an implicit list. 01:27:14 <edwardk> gotchya 01:27:37 <oklokok> but indeed, it is strict, although you can't see it from that. 01:27:50 <edwardk> i inferred strict from the { ; ; ; } blocks ;) 01:27:55 <oklokok> heh :) 01:28:26 <oklokok> i'm only making it strict because i'm not confident enough in my implementation skills 01:28:47 <oklokok> it will be lazy in version 2 :P 01:29:04 <oklokok> since i don't see why not be lazy 01:29:11 <edwardk> i'm currently lazy and side effect free, but i may revert to a pathological reduction rule i used to use that i like which is worst-case lazy or strict. whatever it wants to do. so you have to make sure all of your reductions are confluent. 01:29:35 <oklokok> uh,, confluent? 01:29:37 <edwardk> and the only promise i make is i won't strictly reduce anything wrapped in a 'lazy' keyword 01:29:39 <oklokok> *, 01:29:47 <oklokok> i see 01:30:20 <oklokok> oklotalk has special syntax for introducing generators, those can be used for pretty much anything laziness can, though admittedly it's not as pretty 01:30:48 <edwardk> the basic issue is that you need to guarantee that your code would work no matter how it was evaluated strictly or lazily, but in exchange the compiler can partially evaluate a larger class of things and take optimization steps that are unsound in EITHER a lazy or a strict language 01:31:53 <oklokok> yeah 01:32:06 <oklokok> not specifying stuff is the key to efficient optimization 01:32:09 <edwardk> on the other hand you have the burden of both disciplines, you have the space reasoning issues of a lazy language and the need for explicit 'lazy' annotations of a strict language, though you don't have an explicit 'force', so you get a small win there. and you still have to reason about side effects via a monad or CPS or other trick like a lazy language 01:33:04 <oklokok> hmm, i don't see how laziness and side-effects relate 01:33:09 <oklokok> uhh 01:33:14 <oklokok> i do, actually. 01:33:36 <edwardk> currently i'm using an 'optimistic with lazy semantics' rule which says it can waste work on things eagerly but it has to bound the amount of speculation and if it encounters an error while speculating it has to pretend it didn't happen and turn that speculation into a lazy thunk to be forced on demand. 01:34:10 <oklokok> heh, i see 01:34:11 <edwardk> so that you can encounter bottoms and not 'bottom' out, but you don't have to build as many thunks 01:34:47 <edwardk> but the antagonistic compiler is somewhat more amusing of a rule, since it hasn't been used as far as i can tell ;) 01:34:47 <oklokok> "build thunks"? 01:34:51 <oklokok> not sure what that means :P 01:35:31 <edwardk> a thunk is the unevaluated computation that when forced will give you the answer and overwrite it self with the answer, so that call-by-name evaluation works 01:35:46 <oklokok> yeah, just checked 01:35:52 <edwardk> er call-by-need 01:36:04 <oklokok> hmm 01:36:26 <edwardk> call-by-name has thunks, call-by-need makes the thunk remember the answer it gave by self-modifying 01:36:34 <edwardk> so called 'memothunks' =) 01:36:37 <oklokok> now that i come to think of it, lazy evaluation is pretty trivial to implement. 01:36:46 <edwardk> yep 01:37:21 <edwardk> pattern matching just checks to see if what you have is a thunk if so it tells the thunk to evaluate which makes sure the outermost constructor is a value, then you can inspect it 01:37:40 -!- ihope_ has joined. 01:37:51 <edwardk> in the ghc haskell compiler it does so by making everything into a 'thunk' with a function for the constructed values that just returns itself 01:38:25 <edwardk> er 01:39:17 <oklokok> okay, i got what you said 01:39:29 <oklokok> 1½ minutes of lag in my head 01:39:46 <edwardk> so basically a list 'cons' cell is a [Cons, x, xs] where cons is a pointer to a function that happens to just return the 'thunk' [Cons, x, xs] that it was given, so to force it you call the function at the start of the thunk and you inspect the value of the tag that it returns in the first position. 01:40:04 <edwardk> that way if you had a function like 01:40:12 <edwardk> repeat n = Cons n (repeat n) 01:40:20 <edwardk> then you'd encounter a thunk like 01:41:04 <edwardk> [Repeat, n] where Repeat was a function that takes that and constructs [Cons, n, [Repeat, n ]] 01:41:19 <edwardk> and hands it back for inspection 01:41:56 <edwardk> its the simplest model for compiled lazy evaluation i know 01:42:01 <oklokok> and when pattern matching occurs, it evaluates until there's an actual constructor as outermost 01:42:16 <oklokok> becoming [Cons, n, [Repeat, n ]], where repeat is [Cons, n, [Repeat, n ]] 01:42:24 <oklokok> or? 01:42:54 <edwardk> yeah although that pattern matching routine doesn't have to loop explicitly because by calling that function which calls whatever other functions it has to call to reduce to 'weak head normal form' the recursion is implicit. 01:43:14 <edwardk> it just calls the one function and that thing takes care of all the details, but you have the right idea 01:43:41 <oklokok> you mean the actual caller will not have to care about the fact it has lazied out? 01:44:01 <oklokok> i mean, it doesn' have to know the object it's matching is actually a thunk 01:44:08 <oklokok> *doesn't 01:44:16 <oklokok> hmm... 01:44:18 <edwardk> more or less, it knows it has to call the function that is in the first slot of the value it was given no matter what, then it can safely inspect the first value in the result that returns. 01:44:51 <oklokok> yeah 01:45:04 <edwardk> and laziness proceeds like that, outside-in. 01:46:05 <oklokok> i guess you can do the tree rewriting in any order as long as the result is as value-like as necessary 01:46:14 <edwardk> adding speculation muddies the waters a bit, you track a speculation depth cap, and rather than generate a thunk in the first place you try to run through it eagerly, but if you hit the cap you abort and return the thunk. 01:46:38 <oklokok> well yeah, but isn't that just optimization? 01:46:47 <edwardk> if you hit the cap too many times in the same place, then for performance reasons you disable speculation on that code point. 01:46:47 <edwardk> yeah 01:47:08 <edwardk> the semantics remain lazy, but evaluation can proceed eagerly in a lot of cases 01:47:24 <oklokok> indeed 01:47:52 <oklokok> if there are no infinite sequences and no side-effects, lazy evaluation and strict evaluation have no difference, am i right? 01:48:07 <oklokok> prolly not, but i don't know the difference. 01:48:10 <edwardk> the 'evil compiler' version of it, just allows me to reduce outside-in or inside-out as i choose 01:48:17 <oklokok> i mean, as far as the programmer is concerned.. 01:48:20 <edwardk> you're right 01:48:32 <oklokok> okay, good 01:48:37 <edwardk> they only have space and time efficiency tradeoffs in that case 01:48:47 <edwardk> which i think is perfectly reasonable to give the compiler more control over 01:48:54 <edwardk> actually 01:49:03 <edwardk> no infinite loops and no side effects 01:49:24 <oklokok> hmm... 01:49:33 <oklokok> ah 01:49:35 <edwardk> infinity = infinity + 1 01:49:42 <oklokok> sorry, i'm very slow right now 01:49:42 <edwardk> if you ever evaluate infinity you never stop 01:49:52 <oklokok> yes, indeed, i failed a bit there 01:49:58 <oklokok> i blame the wine and the time. 01:50:26 <oklokok> that's obvious, though 01:50:33 <edwardk> but in the absence of general recursion and general corecursion you can't tell the two apart without side effects 01:50:55 <oklokok> yeah 01:52:02 <oklokok> did you understand the oklotalk code btw? 01:52:04 <edwardk> productive corecursion is valid in a lazy setting, but not a strict-setting though, so the "devil's advocate" compiler design above might make productive corecursion into something that bottoms out and never returns 01:52:31 <edwardk> more or less, modulo the builtins 01:53:08 <oklokok> a few built-ins there indeed 01:53:31 <oklokok> argh, that row-check... 01:53:34 <edwardk> productive corecursion being anything that you know returns an outermost constructor in a finite amount of time, the lazy counterpart to well-founded recursion which says your functions return 01:54:02 <oklokok> mm yeah 01:54:07 <oklokok> i do know corecursion 01:54:22 <oklokok> (i learned the term earlier today, but anyway :P) 01:54:27 <edwardk> haahahah 01:54:38 <edwardk> talking to Cale? =) 01:55:01 <oklokok> hmm... don't know what that is :) 01:55:02 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:55:24 <edwardk> ah he's a guy over on #haskell who is fond of that terminology 01:55:46 <oklokok> read an article @ neighborhood of infinity 01:55:56 <oklokok> oh, haven't talked to him 01:56:20 <edwardk> ok, dan piponi, yeah he's fond of that stuff too 01:56:32 <oklokok> heh 01:57:01 <oklokok> oerjan also once mentioned corecursion some months ago 01:57:10 <oklokok> i didn't bother to check then 01:57:15 <oklokok> what that was, that is 01:57:40 <edwardk> i've been obsessed with comonads and codata for a while, so corecursion naturally follows ;) 01:57:56 <edwardk> even have comonad.com =) 01:57:57 <oklokok> hmm... comonads sounds dangerous. 01:58:04 <oklokok> you have taht? 01:58:05 <oklokok> *that 01:58:09 <edwardk> yeah 01:58:32 <oklokok> been there 01:58:53 <oklokok> i think 01:59:10 <edwardk> comonads aren't that weird. monads are easy to put things into but hard to deconstruct, they are like a container that won't let you in to get at the value you injected unless you follow some rigorous protocol. 01:59:39 <oklokok> hmm 01:59:43 <edwardk> on the other hand comonads are easy to deconstruct, fragile even, you can always remove a comonad from the value it contains, but they may be harder to put things in. 01:59:49 <oklokok> "they" there, which does it refer to? 01:59:57 <edwardk> monads 02:00:00 <oklokok> ah 02:00:05 <edwardk> how well do you know monads? 02:00:06 <oklokok> oh, you continues that: ) 02:00:13 <oklokok> not that well. 02:00:30 <oklokok> i guess i know what they are, but their usage is just too complicated 02:01:01 <oklokok> *continued 02:01:14 <ihope_> I think they're like any other tricky concept, really. 02:01:45 <edwardk> a monad just basically says that i can take a value of some basic type and always transform that value into a more complicated type. i.e. if i have a value of type a. i can always transform that into a function of type e -> a by just returning a constant function that ignores its argument 02:01:48 <ihope_> Look at it for a while, ask to see it in different directions, and either it suddenly clicks or slowly falls into place. 02:02:16 <ihope_> Say that you don't understand something, and someone will declare that it's easy to understand and give you one way to understand it :-) 02:02:17 <edwardk> or, if i have a value of type a, i can always generate a function of type s -> (a,s) which just copies the argument through to the second position of the result 02:03:01 <edwardk> and then there are rules for taking functions that worked on your previous 'a' and getting a function that works on e -> a or s -> (a,s) 02:03:36 <edwardk> so it was 'easy' to inject a value into it, but we have to follow some protocol to get the value out, we have to supply an e or an s in either case, and in the second case we had to strip off the superfluous (,s) term, etc. 02:03:46 <oklokok> ihope_: i don't have to say that, the explanation follows anyway ;) 02:03:54 <edwardk> some monads you may not be able to 'strip off' at all 02:04:49 <edwardk> on the other hand a monad is something that if given you could discard the candy wrapper if you wanted to and always extract the value without any work, but which still provide that framework of how to extend a function for the basic value to handle a comonadically wrapped value. 02:05:06 <edwardk> so i could always treat the pair (e,a) as a by just ignoring the (e,) part 02:05:43 <edwardk> so i can always rip off that 'context' comonad as that is called, i don't have to supply additional information like i did with the reader monad e -> a or the state monad s -> (a,s) above 02:06:35 <oklokok> i guess i have to admit i ain't exactly following :) 02:06:54 * edwardk stops his 'easy to understand and giving you one way to understand it' explanation =) 02:07:05 <oklokok> :P 02:07:12 <oklokok> i really tried! 02:07:52 <oklokok> i think i lack the part of the brain that manages monads 02:07:56 <edwardk> i think of monads as a container you can put something in, and a way to take a container of containers and flatten it out to get a container. so for lists you can always take a value and make a singleton list out of it, and you can always take a list of lists and concatenate them to get a single list 02:08:45 <oklokok> the problem is i know that much, but monads seem to have something much deeper in them. 02:09:14 <edwardk> you can always take a value and transform it into a function that ignores its argument, turning a into e -> a, and you can take an e -> (e -> a) and transform that into a function of type e -> a by using your argument twice 02:09:37 <edwardk> whereas a comonad goes the other way 02:09:43 <oklokok> yeah 02:09:45 <ihope_> Oh, monads are really no harder than, um... 02:10:01 <ihope_> ...I can't think of anything I'm trying to understand but can't. 02:10:04 <oklokok> "you can take an e -> (e -> a) and transform that into a function of type e -> a by using your argument twice" << sure about this? 02:10:10 <edwardk> you can always extract an a from (e,a) and you can duplicate the context, you can always generate (e,(e,a) given (e,a) but with just an a you cant generate (e,a) for an arbitrary e. 02:10:20 <ihope_> join f x = f x x 02:10:29 <ihope_> join :: (e -> (e -> a)) -> e -> a 02:10:52 <oklokok> "by using your argument twice" 02:10:56 <oklokok> oh 02:12:19 <edwardk> the monads as containers analogy leads to a sort of 'comonads as candy wrappers with a possible valuable prize' analogy, you can get rid of the comonad, but it might have value if you kept it around, it may provide you with something you can't do without it. 02:13:20 <edwardk> in that case it provides you with the ability to access the value of e. discarding the comonadic wrapper discards that value. 02:14:21 <oklokok> i guess i get that 02:14:22 <edwardk> and if you want to bake your brain you can analyze the fact that (e,a) and e -> a provide the same functionality and go off into category theory and make grandiose statements about how 'Hom and Prod' are adjoint functors so those two things do the same thing monadically and comonadically, etc. and then you can go get a job on the mathematics faculty somewhere ;) 02:15:32 <oklokok> hmm :) 02:15:59 <edwardk> actually that notion comes probably a bit easier through the concept of currying 02:16:32 <edwardk> (a,b) -> c can always be rewritten as a -> (b -> c) sort of witnesses the connection between , and -> 02:17:03 <oklokok> hmm, (a,b) is not a tuple then? 02:17:20 <edwardk> that connection implies the existence of the (,)e comonad given the (->)e monad and vice versa 02:17:25 <edwardk> it is 02:18:05 <edwardk> you can always rewrite a function that takes a pair of values as a function that takes one of them and returns a function that takes the other and returns the result of calling the function on the pair of the values it now holds 02:18:27 <oklokok> ah 02:18:38 <oklokok> but different call syntax in haskell 02:18:43 <edwardk> curry f x y = f (x,y) 02:18:53 <edwardk> uncurry f (x,y) = f x y 02:19:15 <edwardk> though technically the haskell version lazily handles the latter pattern 02:19:34 <edwardk> uncurry f xy = f (fst xy) (snd xy) 02:19:53 <oklokok> ah 02:19:55 <oklokok> yeah 02:29:09 * oklokok takes a quick sleep 02:29:12 <oklokok> -> 03:00:55 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:19:56 -!- navaburo has left (?). 03:36:09 <Sgeo> Any thoughts on PSOX </normal-mindless-drivvel> 03:36:14 <Sgeo> ? 03:36:26 <edwardk> ? 03:51:16 -!- hieronymus310 has joined. 03:52:08 <hieronymus310> Please add 2 and 3 together 03:52:48 <Sgeo> Is '$ yes no | rm -r /tmp' a safe thing to do? 03:53:14 <Sgeo> hieronymus310, LOCATION_ERROR: IRP_NOT_SUPPORTED_IN_THIS_CHANNEL__SEE_TOPIC 03:53:38 <edwardk> sgeo: well, you don't usually want to remove the /tmp folder entirely 03:53:50 <Sgeo> err 03:53:56 * Sgeo already did it :/ 03:54:08 <Sgeo> Imean, not everything was deleted.. 03:54:28 <Sgeo> OSHI--12.5MB from right after, down to 4.6MB 03:54:53 <Sgeo> of total freespace 03:55:16 <Sgeo> edwardk, hm? 03:55:17 <edwardk> the worry would be if it succeeded entirely and /tmp was gone (which probably wouldn't work on most unix implementations since it usually is mounted) then mktmp and those calls don't know where to dump their files 03:55:41 <Sgeo> It didn't succeed entirely 03:55:44 <edwardk> but the contents of /tmp you can blow away until your heart is content ;) 03:55:49 <edwardk> ya 03:55:57 <edwardk> that was why i was qualifying my response =) 03:56:24 * Sgeo desperately needs the space 03:56:25 -!- hieronymus310 has left (?). 03:56:56 <Sgeo> WTF 4.0KB free? 03:57:52 <Sgeo> Make that 0bytes 03:58:17 * Sgeo has exactly 0bytes free on / 03:58:43 <edwardk> thats generally a bad place to be 03:58:50 <edwardk> is /var in your / partition? 03:59:15 <Sgeo> Probably, why? 03:59:27 <edwardk> if so you might be able to get some room by nuking stuff out of /var/log 03:59:45 <Sgeo> 9.1MB of stuff in /var/log 04:00:04 <edwardk> how much room is on this machine in total anyways? 04:01:07 <Sgeo> Um, howdoItell? 04:01:25 <edwardk> 'df' 04:01:41 <edwardk> that'll tell you what partitions you have how full they are and how big they are 04:01:52 <Sgeo> /dev/sda7 136188044 130653632 24 100% / 04:02:17 <Sgeo> oh, 24KB freew 04:02:35 <Sgeo> I think all I did was close a text editor 04:02:49 <edwardk> and you have no separate user partition or anything? 04:03:02 <Sgeo> And decreasing? 04:03:03 <edwardk> just like linux installed on a workstation in one big fat partition? 04:03:08 <Sgeo> Yes 04:03:40 <edwardk> do you know where the space went or is that just a black box at this point? 04:04:19 <Sgeo> A dir with MIDIs converted to OGGs, all Futurama seasons, a bunch of SWFs, a bunch of ISOs, and more stuff probabky 04:04:29 <edwardk> ah =) 04:05:10 <edwardk> was worried it was just some process filling your drive with drek, now i realize the user is the process in question ;) 04:05:18 <Sgeo> lol 04:06:24 <Sgeo> ~/music/midi/all is 2.5GB 04:06:31 <Sgeo> Not a lot, in relation to, say, ISOs 04:06:59 <edwardk> heh my solution is usually to run down and buy another 500 gig drive and add it to the machine =) 04:08:09 * edwardk is pushing about 2.5TB on his desktop machine these days and just realized it. 04:08:50 <edwardk> mostly virtual pc images, etc. 04:15:18 <Sgeo> Down to 0b again 04:15:31 <Sgeo> /dev/sda7 136188044 130653656 0 100% / 04:15:41 <Sgeo> Why are the numbers different? 04:15:54 * edwardk watches sgeo find space episode by precious episode... 04:16:01 <Sgeo> lol 04:16:14 <edwardk> because some percentage of the drive space is reserve for root 04:16:25 * Sgeo will probably delete some ISOs 04:16:30 <edwardk> er reserved 04:16:53 <edwardk> the justification is that if you have NO drivespace left on the root partition then root can't shuffle things around to fix a problem 04:17:46 <Sgeo> How much is reserved (too lazy to do simpleish math right now) 04:18:21 <edwardk> its like 10% traditionally, but the numbers are probably changed by now, and remember root has some files on the drive so some of that reserve is used 04:19:04 <Sgeo> But I can store more stuff by becoming root? Yipee! 04:19:06 <Sgeo> (j/k) 04:19:49 <Sgeo> Buh-bye openSUSE-10.2 04:20:01 <Sgeo> 1.7GB 04:20:02 <edwardk> yeah, though if you get to the point you are currently at you risk not being able to mount the drive in the event that you have to fsck it or lack the room to record the transaction log, etc. 04:20:34 <Sgeo> You mean, if I use up root's space? 04:20:43 <edwardk> yeah 04:20:57 <Sgeo> What about LiveCDs? 04:21:09 <edwardk> on a drive that big you should be able to lower the reserve some though 04:21:28 <edwardk> they don't risk corruption on themselves because they are an iso image, they don't write back to themselves 04:21:44 <edwardk> they make a ramdisk or whatever and load up in that if it corrupts there is nothing to fsck-up =) 04:21:46 <Sgeo> Incidentally, I wouldn't have been able to use the openSUSE LiveDVD anyway.. can't burn DVDs, and only have 512MB so can't emulate.. 04:22:08 <Sgeo> woohoo 1.7GB freed 04:22:23 <Sgeo> Um, how do I peek into a tgz file? 04:22:34 <edwardk> tar tvfpz foo.tgz 04:22:38 <Sgeo> I have 10GB locked up in a file called someisos.tgz 04:22:42 <Sgeo> ty 04:22:53 <Sgeo> I made that file after running out of space before 04:23:47 <Sgeo> This is taking a while 04:23:53 <Sgeo> There's Linux XP, which I remember hating 04:24:16 * Sgeo likes linux mint, although I should delete the 3.0 iso 04:24:45 <edwardk> you might consider just tunefs'ing to lower the reserve to like 5-6% 04:25:05 <edwardk> or whatever it is in your distro 04:25:50 * Sgeo decides he will delete the file after recording the filenames 04:25:57 <Sgeo> Thank you so very much BTW 04:26:02 <edwardk> no problem 04:26:15 <edwardk> sitting here trying to get something to compile anyways ;) 04:26:15 <Sgeo> hmm Xandros 302-OCE is in there.. 04:26:31 <Sgeo> And a Linspire ISO 04:27:37 -!- edwardk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:27:55 -!- edwardk has joined. 04:28:00 <Sgeo> re edwardk 04:28:02 -!- kwertii has quit (Client Quit). 04:28:04 <edwardk> pidgin crashed 04:28:07 <Sgeo> ah 04:28:09 <edwardk> anyways 04:28:22 <edwardk> try: tune2fs -m 5 /dev/sda1 (or whatever drive it was) 04:28:28 <edwardk> and see what that does for you 04:28:38 * Sgeo isn;t sure he wants to adjust that.. he's reclaiming space.. 04:28:46 <Sgeo> I now have 3.1GB free 04:29:13 <edwardk> 5% is safe, the traditional 10% threshold was set back in the 10mb harddrive era ;) 04:30:04 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:30:08 <Sgeo> No oerjan 04:30:10 <edwardk> heya oerjan 04:30:16 <Sgeo> Noerjan 04:30:26 <Sgeo> (no=hi) 04:31:33 <oerjan> hello 04:32:56 * edwardk notes that apparently linux distros switched to 5% a while back. 04:52:04 * oerjan notes the discussion about a=b=c in plof 04:52:47 <oerjan> it would have been interestingly weird if a=b was equal to b as lvalue 04:54:01 <oerjan> unfortunately plof is not esoteric ;) 04:54:36 * oerjan mentions GregorR, just in case he didn't see that. 05:06:28 -!- wooby has joined. 05:07:06 * Sgeo deletes a 10GB file 05:07:38 <oerjan> was there a *slurp* sound? 05:08:45 <Sgeo> Sadly, no 05:08:55 <Sgeo> My comp seemed to freeze for two seconds, though 05:09:06 <oerjan> ah 05:09:23 <oerjan> probably /dev/null has some indigestion problem. 05:46:45 <Sgeo> lol 05:46:48 <Sgeo> G'night all 05:47:06 * Sgeo will probably add some stuff to seek through File Descriptors next time he works on PSOX 06:02:56 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 06:56:24 -!- edwardk has left (?). 07:13:50 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:25:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:22:47 -!- wooby has quit. 10:02:30 -!- SEO_DUDE85 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:34:19 -!- SEO_DUDE85 has joined. 11:54:50 -!- jix has joined. 12:23:43 -!- ihope_ has joined. 12:23:49 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope. 14:20:02 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:45:42 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 15:02:21 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:02:31 -!- jix has joined. 15:04:40 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined. 15:18:19 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.7/2007091417]"). 15:38:04 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined. 15:38:09 <UnrelatedToQaz> hey all 15:56:43 <ihope> Ello. 16:03:51 <UnrelatedToQaz> I'm trying to learn Unlambda at the moment. 16:08:10 <SimonRC> hi 16:15:14 <UnrelatedToQaz> hey 16:20:19 -!- edwardk has joined. 16:20:31 * edwardk waves hello. 16:23:34 <SimonRC> hi 16:33:24 <UnrelatedToQaz> heya 16:36:05 <ihope> Ello. 16:36:26 <ihope> It's another one of those greetings-only conversations. 16:36:39 <ihope> Hey all, ello, hi, hey, waves hello, hi, heya, ello. 16:48:56 <UnrelatedToQaz> Can we not shoehorn in a topic, then? 16:49:26 <ihope> I think we can manage. 16:49:32 <ihope> Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | IRP in #irp 16:49:55 <ihope> All aspects of mathematics | www.freenode-math.com/ | Don't ask to ask. Ask. | Guidelines: www.freenode-math.com/index.php/Guidelines | Writing maths on IRC: http://xrl.us/ubdh | LaTeX paste: http://mathbin.net | Using mbot: www.freenode-math.com/index.php/Mbot | Off-topic? #not-math (this is not a joke) 16:49:56 <UnrelatedToQaz> Alright then. 16:50:07 <ihope> And I think we have some room for actual content, too. 16:50:08 <UnrelatedToQaz> Did you know you can construct logic gates using dominoes? 16:50:22 <ihope> I've been trying to do that for a while, actually. 16:51:22 <UnrelatedToQaz> For some, though, you have to have an input and a process channel. 16:51:27 <UnrelatedToQaz> Like NOT for example. 16:51:35 <ihope> Though my logic gates would be more like "holes" that can be filled with dominoes if and only if a certain thing is true. 16:52:02 <UnrelatedToQaz> That's a curious way of doing it. What do you mean, exactly? 16:52:57 <ihope> I'll pastebin a diagram sort of thing. 16:53:29 <UnrelatedToQaz> OK then. 16:54:23 <UnrelatedToQaz> I can do my NOT gate in ASCII, thankfully. 16:55:49 <oklokok> heh dominoes, gotta get some of those 16:55:50 <ihope> http://pastebin.ca/707096 16:56:07 <oklokok> i've been thinking of making a computer using water and pipes 16:56:49 <ihope> Each hole is really a logic gate of its own, and putting two holes next to each other connects them. Each connection can be either filled or empty, and each hole must have exactly one filled connection. 16:57:17 <ihope> oklokok: haven't we all? :-) 16:57:53 <oklokok> i'm sure we have, it's just my current dream :) 16:57:59 * UnrelatedToQaz bangs his head on the keyboard 16:58:34 <UnrelatedToQaz> No wonder I'm so confused. That diagram refers to dominoes laying down; my logic gates use dominoes standing up. 16:59:02 <UnrelatedToQaz> I'll append something to yours to show you what I mean. 16:59:41 <oklokok> i don't know much about physics, but you'd think water would work almost the same in a circuit as electricity 16:59:55 <oklokok> it doesn't have the magnetism stuff electricity does, obviously 17:00:09 <oklokok> i don't exactly know how important that is in a computer 17:00:52 <oklokok> computers are dc internally, right? 17:01:11 <oklokok> then there shouldn't be much magnetism involved 17:01:39 <oklokok> i should start reading about this stuff... school hasn't taught me shit :< 17:02:26 <UnrelatedToQaz> Oh. It's at http://pastebin.ca/707100 17:03:00 <UnrelatedToQaz> At the bottom 17:04:00 <oklokok> i don't get the # notation 17:04:52 <ihope> oklokok: each # represents a hole the size of half a domino. 17:05:19 * ihope attempts to build a stick bomb out of pencils: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stick_bomb 17:05:35 <ihope> I expect that pencils are much too stiff to actually do this. 17:07:20 <UnrelatedToQaz> Anything's worth a try. 17:07:45 <oklokok> http://www.lunatim.com/kinart/videos/videos.htm omg 17:08:17 <ihope> Mm, testing a pencil shows that it's impossible to do a certain simple weave. 17:10:20 <UnrelatedToQaz> The problem with using a domino run for computing 17:10:31 <UnrelatedToQaz> is that it can't be reset easily. 17:10:51 <UnrelatedToQaz> Unless you can use magnets somehow. 17:12:08 <SimonRC> http://www.rebelscience.org/Crackpots/notorious.htm 17:12:12 <SimonRC> hehhe 17:12:33 <SimonRC> I would laugh more, but he goes on too much abt why i am wrong and won't admit it. 17:12:39 <SimonRC> He does that generally. 17:18:10 -!- Tritonio has joined. 17:24:14 <oklokok> "First of all, dt/dt does not equal 1 second per second. The units cancel out." 17:31:34 <ihope> It can't be said that it doesn't equal 1 second per second, but "1" is indeed probably a better way of putting it... 17:42:48 <SimonRC> a more interesting vector is found if you multiply that one by the mass 17:43:01 <SimonRC> you get a mass-and-momentum vector 17:45:06 -!- Arrogant has joined. 17:48:08 <bsmntbombdood> i can has drain! 17:49:04 <SimonRC> ?? 17:53:15 <bsmntbombdood> http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/drains/il-7.jpg <--- me 17:57:20 <g4lt-sb100> MY EYES!!!! 17:57:24 -!- ehird` has joined. 17:58:42 <pikhq> Trippy. 17:59:43 <bsmntbombdood> too bad it's so grainy 18:13:33 <UnrelatedToQaz> g'bye everyone 18:13:41 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has left (?). 18:14:57 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving"). 19:13:38 * SimonRC has dinner. 19:28:40 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined. 19:30:24 <UnrelatedToQaz> Wow. I can't believe that all that's happened since I've been gone is that SimonRC has had dinner. 19:36:29 * oklokok is finally reading german 19:38:25 <oklokok> cool, i now have proof for something i claimed to my german teacher in the 5th grade 19:38:41 <oklokok> she would be so embarrassed if i showed this to her 19:39:55 <oklokok> (because who wouldn't remember a 7-year-old conversation vividly.) 19:45:47 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:04:55 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 20:15:42 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.7/2007091417]"). 20:21:00 <bsmntbombdood> oklokok: what is it? 20:45:44 -!- oblivion2k has joined. 20:46:15 -!- oblivion2k has quit (Client Quit). 20:46:25 -!- oblivion2k has joined. 20:57:26 <oklokok> that germans occasionally way "zwo" for 2. 21:19:08 -!- ihope_ has joined. 21:36:12 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:10:02 -!- edwardk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:13:21 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:35:44 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 23:48:20 -!- ihope_ has quit (Connection timed out). 23:49:21 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 2007-09-23: 00:12:54 -!- ehird` has quit. 00:13:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 00:38:55 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 00:42:19 -!- edward1 has joined. 00:51:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:05:19 -!- Eidolos has changed nick to Cartwright. 01:09:52 -!- Cartwright has changed nick to Eidolos. 01:32:04 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 01:53:37 -!- ihope_ has joined. 01:53:47 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope. 02:18:05 -!- ihope_ has joined. 02:21:55 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:31:38 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 02:32:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:40:42 -!- oblivion2k has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:43:44 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:45:29 <oklokok> *say 02:45:46 * oklokok types fast 02:45:59 <RodgerTheGreat> lol 02:58:26 <ihope_> M... hmm, where is that key... oh, here it is! e... um, aha, and here are the other ones! too. 03:01:10 <oklokok> höchstwahrscheinlich <<< 4 syllables, 20 letters, you gotta love this language :D 03:05:51 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:09:45 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 03:09:54 -!- jix has joined. 03:21:15 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:22:33 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 03:44:09 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 03:55:20 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:44:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 04:56:22 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 04:56:33 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:54:46 -!- Arrogant has joined. 06:48:16 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 10:10:04 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:19:12 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined. 10:24:49 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has left (?). 11:02:45 -!- SEO_DUDE85 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:05:24 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined. 11:05:57 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has quit (Client Quit). 11:12:30 -!- SEO_DUDE85 has joined. 12:04:18 -!- jix has joined. 13:21:53 -!- ihope_ has joined. 13:22:32 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope. 14:46:15 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out). 15:09:40 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:09:50 -!- jix has joined. 15:27:52 -!- ihope_ has joined. 15:28:11 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope. 15:45:56 <SimonRC> . 15:55:14 <oklokok> : 15:56:16 <oklokok> okokokokoko 15:56:17 <oklokok> kokokoko 15:56:18 <oklokok> okokoko 15:56:18 <oklokok> okoko 15:56:19 <oklokok> oko 15:56:19 <oklokok> o 15:56:23 <oklokok> :| 15:56:28 <oklokok> *o 15:56:41 <oklokok> that almost never happens 16:08:07 <SimonRC> ? 16:08:57 <oklokok> that utter failior there 16:09:22 <oklokok> eh 16:09:23 <oklokok> failure 16:14:34 <SimonRC> what failed? 16:16:33 <oklokok> my triangle 16:17:23 <oklokok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p316533412.txt <<< this is what it's supposed to look like 16:17:23 <SimonRC> oh, ok 16:17:42 <SimonRC> how did it fail? 16:18:03 <oklokok> i think you can find it by a second glance 16:18:13 <oklokok> *with 16:18:30 <oklokok> the pattern is inconsistent there 16:18:56 <oklokok> there are channels you'd get kicked for a failure that big 16:19:13 <oklokok> (18:17:41) (+oklopol) okokokokokok 16:19:13 <oklokok> (18:17:42) —› kick: (oklopol) was kicked by (trazer) (BAD okoing to be.) 16:19:19 <oklokok> life is tough 16:19:55 <SimonRC> ah, I wondered how only some of it ended up here 16:20:21 <oklokok> heh 16:20:29 <oklokok> i used to train that an hour a day 8D 16:20:36 <oklokok> that was a long time ago 16:20:45 <oklokok> i'm much slower nowadays 18:46:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:46:50 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:06:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 20:40:56 -!- RedDak has joined. 20:46:18 -!- edward1 has changed nick to edwardk. 20:53:02 -!- dak__ has joined. 21:07:30 -!- ehird` has joined. 21:11:28 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:20:38 -!- dak__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:42:10 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 21:47:27 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 21:56:49 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 23:05:46 -!- ehird` has quit. 2007-09-24: 00:14:26 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 00:30:09 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:30:27 <Sgeo> Hi all 00:30:55 <Sgeo> Would it be a bad thing to make seeking through file descriptors etc. be located at 0x10-0x19? 00:33:42 <Sgeo> 0x10 - switch outfile descriptor; 0x11 - switch infile descriptor; 0x12 - absolute seek through outfile descriptor; 0x13 - abs. seek through infile descriptor; 0x14 - rel. seek outfile; 0x15 - rel. seek infile; 0x16 - flush outfile; 0x17 - flush infile; 0x18 - close outfile and return to stdout; 0x19 - close infile and return to stdin 00:34:11 <Sgeo> All in System domain (0x02) 00:34:48 <Sgeo> Oh, and there will only be one pool for file descriptors 00:49:22 -!- edwardk has left (?). 00:56:06 * Sgeo pokes pikhq 00:56:16 <Sgeo> and GregorR and ihope and and and 00:56:18 <Sgeo> oklokok, 01:04:07 <Sgeo> No one? 01:18:16 <ihope> Sounds good to me; I dunno. 01:19:11 <pikhq> Ouch. 01:19:26 <pikhq> Probably not a bad thing. 01:20:41 <Sgeo> I guess for abs. seeks, 0 should be the first byte? 01:21:04 * Sgeo is going to have the seek functions require longnums, incidentally 01:21:32 <Sgeo> Making seeking 5 bytes forward on the outfile: 0x00 0x02 0x14 0x01 0x05 0x00 0x0A :/ 01:21:50 <Sgeo> 5 bytes backward would be 0x00 0x02 0x14 0x02 0x05 0x00 0x0 01:22:20 <Sgeo> Too much overhead? 01:22:27 <Sgeo> Or is it ok if understood? 02:18:28 -!- ihope_ has joined. 02:19:29 <Sgeo> Hi ihope_ 02:19:31 <Sgeo> See http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt 02:19:38 <Sgeo> Under File Descriptors stuff 02:36:03 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out). 02:56:30 -!- edwardk has joined. 03:12:38 -!- edwardk has left (?). 03:29:49 -!- ihope_ has quit (Success). 05:48:59 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:24:50 -!- immibis has joined. 07:30:06 -!- immibis has left (?). 07:30:17 -!- immibis has joined. 07:30:37 <immibis> !daemon ctcp bf +.,[.,]+. 07:30:50 <immibis> !undaemon ctcp 07:30:52 <EgoBot> Process 2 killed. 07:30:54 <EgoBot> <CTCP> 07:31:44 <immibis> !daemon ctcp bf +[[-]+.,----------[++++++++++.,----------]+.+++++++++.] 07:31:50 <immibis> !ctcp ACTION tests 07:31:52 * EgoBot tests 07:31:54 <immibis> !ctcp ACTION tests 07:31:56 * EgoBot tests 07:31:58 <immibis> !ctcp ACTION tests 07:32:00 * EgoBot tests 07:32:14 <immibis> !!! i actually got it on my second try? 07:32:18 <EgoBot> Huh? 07:32:40 * EgoBot pings immybo 07:32:50 * EgoBot decides not to ping immybo 07:32:54 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server"). 07:33:05 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:33:14 -!- immybo has joined. 07:33:20 * EgoBot is a bot 07:33:38 <EgoBot> /me is a bot 07:33:50 <EgoBot> I AM EGOBOT. BOW BEFORE ME!!! 07:34:10 <immybo> !cat I am immybo's slave! 07:34:14 <EgoBot> I am immybo's slave! 07:34:34 <immybo> !cat You will bow before immybo! 07:34:36 <immibis> immybo, to make him use /me, say !ctcp ACTION tests 07:34:38 <EgoBot> You will bow before immybo! 07:34:45 <immibis> immybo, do it in a private chat 07:34:49 <immybo> oh.. 07:34:51 <immibis> immybo, /query EgoBot 07:35:20 <immybo> ok 07:36:28 <EgoBot> I am immybo's slave. Bow before immibis! 07:36:40 <immybo> what!? 07:36:40 <EgoBot> s/immibis/immybo/ 07:37:44 -!- immybo has changed nick to immybo_. 07:42:28 <EgoBot> meow 07:42:30 <EgoBot> meow 07:42:32 <EgoBot> meow 07:42:34 <EgoBot> meow 07:42:36 <EgoBot> meow 07:42:38 <EgoBot> meow 07:43:12 <EgoBot> EgoBot cool! 07:43:34 <EgoBot> <( 07:43:56 <EgoBot> woof! 07:43:58 <EgoBot> woof! 07:44:00 <EgoBot> woof! 07:44:02 <EgoBot> woof! 07:44:04 <EgoBot> woof! 07:44:05 <immibis> !bf_txtgen woof! 07:44:06 <EgoBot> woof! 07:44:08 <EgoBot> woof! 07:44:10 <EgoBot> woof! 07:44:12 <EgoBot> woof! 07:44:14 <EgoBot> woof! 07:44:16 <immibis> shut up 07:44:30 <immibis> where's bsmnt_bot? 07:44:34 <EgoBot> 63 +++++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++>>+<<<<-]>--.--------..---------.>. [124] 07:44:51 <immibis> !bf +++++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++>>+<<<<-]>--.--------..------ ---.>. 07:44:54 <EgoBot> woof! 07:44:58 <immibis> !bf +++++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++>>+<<<<-]>--.--------..---------.>. 07:44:58 <EgoBot> 1x1=456 07:45:02 <EgoBot> woof! 07:45:08 <immibis> x = 456 then. 07:45:18 <EgoBot> err... 1 07:45:25 <immibis> then x is 1 07:45:36 <EgoBot> duh 07:45:37 <immibis> 1x1 is equivalent to just x. 07:45:48 <EgoBot> duh 07:45:50 <EgoBot> duh 07:45:52 <EgoBot> duh 07:45:54 <EgoBot> duh 07:45:56 <EgoBot> duh 07:45:58 <EgoBot> duh 07:46:00 <EgoBot> duh 07:46:02 <EgoBot> duh 07:46:04 <EgoBot> duh 07:46:06 <EgoBot> duh 07:48:01 -!- toBogE has joined. 07:55:22 -!- immybo_ has quit ("For Sale: Parachute. Only used once, never opened, small stain."). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:07:22 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!1(_o)on.?]} 08:10:39 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Test"(_o)o.?]} 08:10:42 <EgoBot> Test 08:11:44 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!1(_o)on.?]} 08:12:02 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!<1>(_o)on.?]} 08:12:08 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!<1>(_o)(on).?]} 08:12:10 <EgoBot> 1 08:12:14 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!<1>(_o)(on).?]} 08:12:16 <EgoBot> 1 08:32:37 -!- toBogE has quit (Connection reset by peer). 08:52:46 -!- immibis has quit ("Say What?"). 09:37:36 -!- toBogEboT has joined. 09:39:11 -!- bsmntbot has joined. 09:41:05 -!- toBogEboT has left (?). 09:41:12 -!- immibis has joined. 09:41:42 -!- bsmntbot has changed nick to bsmnt_bot. 09:43:31 -!- bsmnt_bot has changed nick to WaiterBot. 09:44:55 * WaiterBot is making a decaf espresso coffee with an infinite number of sugars in a bucket with cold milk for this channel 09:44:55 * WaiterBot is making a decaf espresso coffee with an infinite number of sugars in a bucket with cold milk for #esoteric 09:44:56 * WaiterBot spills the channel's coffee into a Magnetic Laser Device 09:44:58 * WaiterBot spills #esoteric's coffee into a Magnetic Laser Device 09:45:03 * WaiterBot gives everyone in this channel a magnetic decaf espresso coffee with an infinite number of sugars in a bucket with cold milk which is emitting lots of blue light and a barely audible hum 09:45:06 * WaiterBot gives #esoteric a magnetic decaf espresso coffee with an infinite number of sugars in a bucket with cold milk which is emitting lots of blue light and a barely audible hum 09:45:14 <immibis> !!! 09:45:16 <EgoBot> Huh? 09:47:17 * WaiterBot is making a decaf espresso orange juice with an infinite number of sugars in a petrol tanker with last year's milk for #arianne 09:47:22 * WaiterBot spills #arianne's coffee into a Magnetic Laser Device 09:47:32 * WaiterBot gives #arianne a magnetic decaf espresso orange juice with an infinite number of sugars in a petrol tanker with last year's milk which is emitting lots of blue light and a barely audible hum 09:47:50 <immibis> why are you making a decaf espresso orange juice with an infinite number of sugars in a petrol tanker with last year's milk for #arianne? 09:48:09 -!- WaiterBot has left (?). 09:55:25 -!- bsmntbot has joined. 09:55:43 -!- bsmntbot has changed nick to bsmnt_bot. 09:56:05 -!- bsmnt_bot has changed nick to WaiterBot. 09:57:05 <WaiterBot> #bots: <immibis> !persist factoid save 09:57:06 <WaiterBot> #bots: <toBogE> java.io.FileNotFoundException: factoid.toboge.old (The system cannot find the file specified) 09:57:09 <WaiterBot> #bots: <immibis> ?immibis 09:57:10 <WaiterBot> #bots: <toBogE> immibis is my creator. All hail immibis! 09:57:25 <immibis> drat this thing 09:57:48 -!- toBogE has joined. 09:58:02 <immibis> !persist factoid save 09:58:04 <toBogE> java.io.FileNotFoundException: factoid.toboge.old (The system cannot find the file specified) 09:58:04 <EgoBot> Huh? 09:58:18 <immibis> drat 09:58:23 <immibis> bye bye factoid database 10:07:18 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC. Download Ic). 10:07:21 -!- toBogE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:07:24 -!- WaiterBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:37:11 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 10:42:35 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:49:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 11:00:29 -!- bsmntbom1dood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:15:27 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 11:20:50 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:17:14 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:30:48 -!- SEO_DUDE85 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:46:04 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 13:18:23 <Sgeo> re SEO_DUDE 13:56:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:06:09 <RodgerTheGreat> howdy, everyone 14:51:55 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:09:35 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 15:32:59 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:06:24 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:10:52 -!- jix has joined. 16:13:44 -!- importantshock has joined. 16:14:01 <importantshock> howdy 16:14:22 <RodgerTheGreat> what's up, importantshock? 16:14:35 <importantshock> nothing, just got back from my Software Engineering 1 class 16:14:46 <importantshock> where we were taught about the ! operator. exciting fucking stuff. 16:15:19 <RodgerTheGreat> sounds pretty amazing, dude 16:15:46 <importantshock> it is kind of fun, insofar as the rest of the class is "what the fuck is a pointer?" and i just sit back and smirk 16:16:39 <RodgerTheGreat> that sounds pretty much like my "Software development in C/C++" class. 16:17:00 <RodgerTheGreat> "HOLY POO WHAT IS DEREFERENCING I AM CONFUSED THIS IS HARD HURR" 16:17:36 <bsmntbom1dood> ;( 16:17:44 <bsmntbom1dood> s/;/:/ 16:17:51 <importantshock> at least my faculty advisor is really, really cool 16:18:05 <importantshock> he knows Haskell and SML and all of these languages i've never heard 16:18:23 <importantshock> of 16:18:47 <bsmntbom1dood> shouldn't you already know how to code in a software engineering class? 16:19:01 <importantshock> bsmntbom1dood: you'd think so... 16:20:30 <RodgerTheGreat> in many cases, software engineering courses are organized as "Computer Science for people who dropped out of Computer Science" 16:20:53 <bsmntbom1dood> i hate how CS is bastardized 16:21:04 -!- importantshock has quit ("Meh."). 16:21:23 <bsmntbom1dood> kids who can't code at all go into CS because they want to learn how to fix computers 16:21:27 <bsmntbom1dood> wtf? 16:21:37 <oklokok> there's one course in functional programming in the university \o/ 16:21:38 <oklokok> ... 16:21:58 <oklokok> well, it usually doesn't happen, too little people take it... 16:22:08 <bsmntbom1dood> "i hate math but i'm going to major in CS anyway" 16:22:30 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbom1dood: all the CS- related courses get shit-tons of people there for the wrong reasons 16:22:56 <RodgerTheGreat> something about the average starting salary is probably the root of a great deal of that 16:23:03 <bsmntbom1dood> and wtf is mit doing fucking around with 6.001? 16:24:58 <RodgerTheGreat> All of my classes positively seethe with terrible, terrible programmers 16:28:27 <oklokok> hey, you've got cs at least... 16:28:48 <oklokok> i've got java 16:30:32 <RodgerTheGreat> my high school didn't have any damn programming classes, so quit your whining. 16:30:58 <oklokok> i'm talking about the university 16:31:22 <RodgerTheGreat> good lord 16:31:31 -!- Tritonio has joined. 16:32:07 <oklokok> really, i asked the professor what other paradigms than oop are taught there, he said "there's occasionally one in functional programming, and i think we used to have one with AI" 16:32:45 <RodgerTheGreat> AI is a programming paradigm? 16:32:52 <oklokok> might have used different quantifiers, but anyway, just a few real courses, and they aren't always even organized 16:32:53 <RodgerTheGreat> no WONDER we haven't been getting it! :D 16:33:03 <oklokok> heh, i guess he meant prolog :) 16:33:07 <RodgerTheGreat> lol 16:34:47 <oklokok> i guess i should ask fizzie for directions 16:55:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:37:05 <bsmntbom1dood> :( 17:52:39 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:52:49 -!- jix has joined. 18:12:14 <GregorR> RodgerTheGreat: The low-level CS courses get a lot of idiots due to the perceived (but not real) profit margin, yes, but also from the IWANNARITEGAMESSOIHERDINEDACSDEGREEEEE idiots. 18:12:28 <GregorR> I would say 50% of the first-year CS students are the latter. And 0% of that 50% continue to another year. 18:14:30 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:25:34 <bsmntbom1dood> it seems like the undergrad CS curriculum at all universities sucks 18:32:39 <Sgeo> Hm? 18:32:40 <Sgeo> Hi 18:42:40 <bsmntbom1dood> what 18:50:50 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:08:44 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: yeah, tell me about it 19:08:56 <RodgerTheGreat> jesus, the would-be game authors are the *worst* 19:09:16 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 19:11:05 * GregorR <3 PSU 19:13:24 -!- Tritonio has joined. 19:17:11 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:35:08 -!- Arrogant has joined. 19:43:29 -!- Tritonio has quit ("Bye..."). 19:46:57 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:05:36 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 20:08:12 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 20:09:02 <oklokok> uh, i love the people who act all programming king in the first demos of a course, right up until i get on the blackboard :D 20:09:17 <oklokok> guys who've made a game or two in VB and the likes :P 20:10:02 <oklokok> i guess i shouldn't brag about that, but owning noobs is just so much fun 20:26:33 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol. 20:26:38 <oklopol> i wanna be me again 20:26:49 <oklopol> oklokok is such a dick 20:26:56 <oerjan> O_o 20:27:11 <oklopol> "kok" 20:27:16 <oerjan> _please_ don't start to resemble immibis, ok? 20:27:22 <oklopol> :) 20:27:25 <oklopol> i'm not flooding :) 20:27:46 <oklopol> i like immibis, he's got a nice animal charm 20:27:57 <oklopol> you know, he just seems to be more alive than most ppl 20:29:14 <oerjan> yeah, but... 20:29:40 <oklopol> i'll try to be formal from now on 20:29:53 <oklopol> eh.. formal? you know that non immibis thing 20:30:07 <oerjan> someone who chastises his alter ego for spamming, and then continues to do it himself... 20:30:28 <oerjan> ok, i'll just have to remember we are mad here. 20:33:08 * oklopol does his maniac laugh 20:33:30 <oklopol> i feel naughty for being the same color and length as GregorR 20:33:32 <Sgeo> MAD! MAD> I SAY! 20:33:32 <oklopol> once again 20:34:03 <oerjan> length? 20:34:14 <oklopol> hmm... 20:34:24 <oklopol> you'd think that'd be the easier of the two to get :P 20:34:32 <oklopol> len $ nick 20:34:37 <oklopol> eh 20:34:38 <oklopol> len nick 20:34:43 <oerjan> oh nick 20:34:52 <oklopol> you got the color thing? 20:35:06 <oerjan> i was all wondering, how did you get to compare heights? 20:35:13 <oklopol> hehe 20:35:23 <oerjan> i remember the conversation from the logs or something 20:35:35 <oklopol> nice, someone besides me reads the logs :) 20:35:38 <oerjan> i don't have colored nicks though 20:35:43 <oklopol> me neither 20:35:57 <oklopol> too hard to open options 20:36:24 <oerjan> except when someone mentions mine 20:36:42 <oklopol> well yeah, but that usually comes automatically with every client 20:37:40 <oklopol> *-but 20:37:55 <oerjan> indeed, although i _did_ download a color scheme 20:38:23 <oklopol> what client? 20:38:23 <oerjan> since i cannot stand dark backgrounds 20:38:26 <oklopol> i'll whois! 20:38:27 <oerjan> irssi 20:38:30 <oklopol> darn 20:38:32 <oklopol> too fast 20:38:34 <oklopol> *slow 20:38:39 <oklopol> i guess both. 20:38:40 <oerjan> mwahaha! 20:38:47 <oklopol> can't stand dark backrounds :O 20:38:55 <oklopol> you'd hate using my computer :) 20:39:02 <oerjan> probably 20:40:33 <oerjan> actually i think the default which i changed was something that left the background as is, but selected the other colors on the assumption it was dark... 20:41:17 <oklopol> :| 20:41:18 <oerjan> certain things got a bit hard to see :/ 20:41:33 <oklopol> i have white on grey now, though i prefer white on black 20:42:55 <oerjan> black on white 20:44:18 <oklopol> that's what you have, or? 20:44:41 <oerjan> that's what i meant 20:47:43 <oklopol> had to make sure you weren't correcting me :P 20:47:54 <oklopol> "white on black" <<< i could've easily failed this 20:48:51 <oerjan> well, let's not look at things as black or white 20:49:20 <oerjan> green on orange is much better 20:51:59 <oklopol> black and blue 20:53:51 -!- Arrogant has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:08:02 -!- ihope_ has joined. 21:08:14 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope. 21:10:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 21:24:53 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 21:45:20 -!- rutlov has joined. 21:55:20 -!- rutlov has left (?). 22:09:43 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 23:21:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:28:08 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 23:44:57 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:45:04 -!- CakeProphet_ has joined. 2007-09-25: 00:03:46 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 00:15:32 -!- CakeProphet__ has joined. 00:17:44 -!- CakeProphet__ has quit (Client Quit). 00:17:59 -!- CakeProphet__ has joined. 00:18:40 -!- CakeProphet__ has changed nick to CakeProphet. 00:32:52 -!- CakeProphet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:05:02 <pikhq> I fully intend, next year, to laugh at the undergrad CS students who don't know shit about coding. 01:05:13 <pikhq> Moreover, I plan to do it in Brainfuck. 01:07:09 <pikhq> Perhaps assisted with my friendly compiler. :) 01:09:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:24:55 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:25:17 -!- CakeProphet__ has joined. 01:25:19 -!- CakeProphet__ has changed nick to CakeProphet. 01:41:33 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:46:36 <lament> pikhq: it's impolite to laugh at people just because they don't know something they're not even supposed to know. 01:47:27 <pikhq> lament: I refuse to be polite, then. 01:48:04 <lament> ok, i'll laugh at you because you don't know Russian, then. 01:48:16 <lament> really, how can anybody be that stupid? :) 01:48:56 <pikhq> It'd only be silly if I went in as a Russian major. 01:49:04 <pikhq> And then claimed to be a god at Russian. 01:49:18 <pikhq> (like the people I intend to laugh at claim to be a god at coding) 01:49:33 <lament> the CS program assumes no knowledge of programming 01:50:04 <pikhq> And I assume that the mathematics program assumes no knowledge of math? 01:50:04 <lament> much unlike the math program 01:50:17 <bsmntbombdood> lament: it should 01:50:23 <lament> bsmntbombdood: why? 01:51:02 <pikhq> Inevitably, the ones who will stick around in such a program *already know a bit about programming*. 01:51:08 <lament> pikhq: that's not true. 01:51:26 <lament> lots of people learn programming while in the CS program. 01:52:36 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: be aware of the fact that virtually all introductory (read: required) CS courses specify a language for the completion of all assignments. 01:53:03 <bsmntbombdood> in a math program, you're expected to know the language of math, ie algebra 01:53:06 <lament> pikhq: in my university, there was an exam you could take to skip the first few courses. 01:53:10 <bsmntbombdood> so the same should be true in a cs program 01:53:18 <lament> bsmntbombdood: ...why? 01:53:30 <lament> pikhq: so people who already knew programming could take the exam, and others would take those courses. 01:53:33 <pikhq> Particularly when it is plausible for someone to know programming by age 8. . . 01:53:45 <RodgerTheGreat> if you get into an AI course or something and still want to use PEBBLE, be my guest. However, CS 1001 or whatever-the-hell-it's-called introductory programming is going to use either C++ or Java, period. 01:54:01 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: C++ at the college I want to go to. 01:54:06 <pikhq> Fortuitously, I *know* C++. 01:54:18 <ihope> Age 8? Pah. :-P 01:54:21 <pikhq> And I'd love to do one assignment in PEBBLE, for no good reason. :p 01:54:31 <lament> bsmntbombdood: note that the analogy is doubly broken because the CS program *also* expects you to know math, just like the math program. 01:54:33 <bsmntbombdood> RodgerTheGreat: that's stupid 01:54:47 <bsmntbombdood> java and c++ don't have anything to offer to CS 01:54:47 <lament> bsmntbombdood: in fact, both programs expect you to know what you're taught in HS. 01:54:56 <ihope> Not that I know when I learned Pascal. That was a while ago. 01:55:01 <lament> bsmntbombdood: which involves a lot of math and no (mandatory) CS. 01:55:10 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: 1) try being a fucking grader, 2) those intro courses are *largely* about teaching sane coding style, formatting and commenting practice 01:55:12 <bsmntbombdood> lament: if you can't learn anything on your own, you're stupid 01:55:26 <bsmntbombdood> RodgerTheGreat: ...then they aren't CS 01:55:32 <lament> bsmntbombdood: there's a difference between "can" and "should" 01:55:34 <pikhq> Imagine you going in as an English major, and enter not knowing English. . . 01:55:57 <lament> pikhq: with languages *other* than English, that's exactly how it works. 01:56:06 <lament> You could enter not knowing any Spanish, and then become a Spanish major. 01:56:14 <pikhq> lament: I assume this is a school somewhere where English is spoken natively. 01:56:18 <lament> right. 01:56:20 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: why is it valuable to have CS majors without practical coding experience? Theory is far less useful if nobody knows how to apply it in a useful fashion. 01:57:04 <lament> anyway, faculties can't assume that you know anything beyond high school stuff. Otherwise, nobody would go to said faculties. 01:57:26 <pikhq> lament: Programming courses for a computer science program should honestly be considered remedial courses. . . 01:57:28 <lament> so all faculties assume english, and all faculties assume math, and none of them assume programming. 01:57:40 <bsmntbombdood> lament: i would 01:57:41 <ihope> The subject "English" is a horrible spectrum ranging from literature to spelling. 01:57:51 <lament> pikhq: sure, just like basic spanish courses are "remedial" for a spanish major 01:57:57 <ihope> The two are pretty much unrelated. 01:57:58 <pikhq> And try to get high schools to actually match that. 01:58:28 <pikhq> ihope: For a degree in English, literature is usually what is being referred to. ;) 01:58:30 <lament> pikhq: well, *given* the high schools, universities are pretty much doing the best they can. 01:59:20 <pikhq> Given the high schools, I'm surprised people can even wipe their ass after graduating from high school. 01:59:46 <ihope> Is that supposed to be taught in schools at all? 01:59:47 <RodgerTheGreat> there are a depressing number of people who choose a college major without doing anything in advance of showing up for the first class to prepare themselves 02:00:12 <lament> Asswiping 101 02:00:13 <RodgerTheGreat> ihope: I dunno, I think they teach it in some of the elementary school special ed classes 02:00:26 * RodgerTheGreat is totally serious 02:01:24 <bsmntbombdood> i got taught to wipe my ass 02:01:44 <bsmntbombdood> by my parents, of course, not by a school 02:01:49 <RodgerTheGreat> same 02:02:25 <RodgerTheGreat> if parents are incapable of teaching their children to dress themselves, eat, and defecate properly, I don't think they deserve the title "parent" 02:02:29 <lament> so yeah, to summarize, the math program assumes as much math knowledge as the CS program assumes CS knowledge -- everything you learned in high school. 02:02:58 <lament> You'd think the people going to math are pretty smart. Yet the program doesn't even assume they know calculus. Because not everybody learns calculus in high schools. 02:03:14 <bsmntbombdood> lament: dependence on a broken system isn't smart 02:03:25 <RodgerTheGreat> which says more about high-schools than universities, really 02:03:34 <lament> bsmntbombdood: you don't quite understand. 02:03:45 -!- gurami has joined. 02:03:50 <lament> bsmntbombdood: there's this thing called *the real world*, which is where both universities and high schools have to operate. 02:03:52 <RodgerTheGreat> but you need to remember- there are two reasons you go to college: to learn, or to prove what you know 02:04:21 <lament> bsmntbombdood: In this "real world", the universities can't do anything about the high schools and have to do their best given the situation. 02:04:23 <RodgerTheGreat> In my case, some of both. In some cases, more of the former 02:04:34 <lament> bsmntbombdood: which is what they do. 02:05:07 <lament> You can't raise the bar above HS requirements because then almost nobody would attend. 02:05:20 <bsmntbombdood> universities are for the advancement of academia, not for making money 02:05:47 <lament> in this case, universities are for teaching, and teaching is what they do. 02:05:55 <pikhq> The high schools need to be revamped signifigantly. . 02:05:56 <bsmntbombdood> forcing people to know stuff they didn't get taught in high school would keep the idiots out 02:06:19 <ihope> Universities aren't out to make money? 02:06:21 <lament> bsmntbombdood: so where should they learn this stuff? By themselves? 02:06:28 <bsmntbombdood> lament: yes... 02:06:35 <lament> bsmntbombdood: so, if you can learn it all by yourself 02:06:39 <lament> why go to university at all? 02:06:45 <pikhq> ihope: In *name*, they're largely public institutions. 02:07:07 <RodgerTheGreat> there's a fine balance to strike between punishing people for being lazy cockoffs in high-school and unfairly hurting the people that honestly did try yet went to crappy schools 02:07:45 <bsmntbombdood> lament: to interact with smart people 02:08:23 <lament> bsmntbombdood: that's not the stated goal of universities (in the context of getting an undergrad degree). Perhaps a society like MENSA would serve you better. 02:08:37 <RodgerTheGreat> hahaha... mensa 02:08:57 <bsmntbombdood> lol 02:09:15 <RodgerTheGreat> lament: wait... were you serious about the mensa thing? 02:09:21 <bsmntbombdood> and for accreditation 02:09:58 <bsmntbombdood> but accreditation really fucks shit up :( 02:10:28 <ihope> Hmm, Mensa. I think my mom says it's mostly about "Look at me, I'm smart enough to be in Mensa!" 02:10:32 <pikhq> MENSA is remarkable, in that it seems to be more a society of people smart enough to join, but not smart enough to willingly *not* join. 02:10:45 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: he wants to interact with smart people, no? 02:11:39 <RodgerTheGreat> well, he said smart people, but smart people isn't necessarily the same thing as pretentious assholes with high-IQs that are willing to pay membership dues to say so. 02:12:13 <lament> well, that's his problem :) 02:12:29 <RodgerTheGreat> heh 02:12:51 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Like I said: smart enough to join, not smart enough to *not* join. ;) 02:13:01 <RodgerTheGreat> in all honesty, I think quite a few of us here could get into MENSA if we wanted and yet... none of us are currently... how unusual... 02:13:20 <pikhq> Indeed, I could. 02:13:26 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: yeah, I was just making the point in a different way 02:13:33 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: what's their cutoff? 02:13:36 <pikhq> "Here's an IQ test I took. . . 8 years ago." ;) 02:13:37 <pikhq> 130. 02:13:48 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: 1 in 50 makes it in, iirc. 02:13:56 <gurami> Tell me how to make a really great cappuccino please? 02:14:08 <lament> gurami: the key ingredient is great espresso 02:14:15 <pikhq> Assuming an IQ test with some other standard deviation, it is officially 2 standard deriviations. 02:14:17 <RodgerTheGreat> lament: ah... dude, that would mean mensa "geniuses" are within one standard deviantion. WTF? 02:14:19 <lament> gurami: do you have a big, expensive espresso machine? 02:14:24 <RodgerTheGreat> how is that "genius level"? 02:14:25 <gurami> I do 02:14:27 <bsmntbombdood> gurami: 1 part really great esspresso, 1 part milk, 1 part microfoam? 02:14:52 <lament> gurami: the other key thing is knowing how to foam milk 02:14:58 <lament> hold on 02:15:09 <gurami> That is difficult - I always end up with too little foam 02:15:21 <lament> gurami: http://www.coffeegeek.com/guides/frothingguide 02:15:26 <gurami> excellent 02:15:39 <gurami> reading something called the frothingguide will make this day complete 02:15:47 <lament> and in general, look at http://www.coffeegeek.com/guides 02:16:01 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Presumably because 2 SDs is 0.5% of the population? 02:16:39 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: oh, wait- crap- I did that wrong in my head 02:16:53 <RodgerTheGreat> 68, 95, 99 02:16:56 <pikhq> Still not all *that* impressive. 02:17:25 <RodgerTheGreat> nothing against you, gurami, but is there any particular reason you decided this would be a good channel to ask about cappuccino? 02:17:41 <ihope> Is nobody here capable of spelling "deviation"? :-P 02:17:44 * pikhq is at about the point where IQ tests are incapable of accurately discerning meaningful values. 02:17:51 <ihope> Me too. 02:18:09 <gurami> Meh, I figure a room full of esoteric programmers would be pretty knowledgeable about caffeine delivery methods :) 02:18:11 <pikhq> ihope: How the hell did I enter an "r" in my second usage of "deviation"? 02:18:27 <pikhq> gurami: Coffee, and lots of it. ;p 02:18:37 <pikhq> Mountain Dew is also damned good. 02:18:42 -!- ihope_ has joined. 02:18:44 <gurami> if you like pee 02:19:13 <pikhq> -_-' 02:19:24 <bsmntbombdood> i wish i knew espresso :( 02:19:25 <RodgerTheGreat> ihope: whoops, I cannot believe I made that typo. :S 02:19:39 <RodgerTheGreat> I am normally capable of spelling "deviation" 02:20:13 <ihope_> "Your IQ is at least this high", they said... 02:20:17 <gurami> :) I mean, i can understand an addiction to mountain dew. i just cant sympathize 02:20:46 <RodgerTheGreat> heh 02:20:48 <bsmntbombdood> coffee is much preferable to pop 02:20:52 <bsmntbombdood> none of that sugar 02:21:11 <pikhq> Sometimes, I need something sugary. 02:21:32 <gurami> I totally call all cola "Coke". Pop must be preceded by Snap and Crackle. 02:21:51 <pikhq> I call all operating systems "Windows". :p 02:22:10 <ihope_> Debian GNU/Windows. 02:22:14 <bsmntbombdood> gurami: mountain dew isn't cola 02:22:20 <ihope_> Wait, is that Cygwin? 02:23:07 <gurami> Ok i call all soft drinks coke. 02:23:12 <gurami> i think its a southern thing. 02:23:53 <gurami> [http://popvssoda.com] 02:24:12 <ihope_> I'm a popist. 02:24:31 <ihope_> Except when I think the word "pop" sound silly, in which case... um... 02:24:53 <ihope_> (I seem to be becoming increasingly unable to put the "s" on the end of stuff.) 02:25:07 <pikhq> I do both "soda" and "pop". . . 02:25:43 <ihope_> (Why the singular/plural distinction, anyway? I don't like it.) 02:25:57 <ihope_> (Person can understand thing just fine without it, can't it?) 02:26:26 <bsmntbombdood> espresso machines/grinders are expensive 02:26:29 <ihope_> I generally use "soda" only for "fruit"-flavored drinks. 02:26:43 <gurami> here's a question, is someone who believes in the Pope's mission a "Popist"? 02:27:01 <ihope_> Sure, why not? 02:27:16 <ihope_> Maybe I believe in both Pope and pop. 02:28:24 <gurami> sorry i took the level of this conversation down a bunch 02:28:33 <gurami> im kinda bored and delirious 02:28:41 <RodgerTheGreat> pope pop! the new flavor sensation sweeping vatican city! "Holy christ on a stick it's good", says an anonymous dude. 02:29:49 <gurami> The new brown pope pop: Poopy Pope Pop! 02:29:52 <gurami> (sorry) 02:32:19 -!- gurami has left (?). 02:32:31 <pikhq> Easter-Flavored Pope Pop! 02:32:58 <pikhq> "Where is it? It can't have left the grave!" 02:32:58 <pikhq> :p 02:33:16 <RodgerTheGreat> "It makes you feel like crawling out of hell and doing something with palm fronds!" 02:34:33 <pikhq> That'd be Good Friday Pope Pop, and that has cyanide. :p 02:38:17 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out). 02:43:40 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 03:31:40 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:00:33 -!- Herr_Rob has joined. 04:01:11 -!- Robdgreat has quit (Nick collision from services.). 04:01:15 -!- Herr_Rob has changed nick to Robdgreat. 04:22:49 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 04:28:18 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:05:13 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: i made a fucking awesome hat 05:06:02 <bsmntbombdood> it's a tetrahedron 05:09:45 <RodgerTheGreat> man, heavy shit in #Nonlogic 05:10:02 <Sgeo> RodgerTheGreat, lies! 05:10:57 <RodgerTheGreat> sometimes I wish we were a bit more like #Esoteric in the sense that we didn't have a big centralized set of servers providing all our stuff- #Esoteric's resources are distributed around to different people 05:11:15 <RodgerTheGreat> we have a lot of friction going on because we have a community half and a company half. 05:11:22 <Sgeo> RodgerTheGreat, where ios this? 05:11:53 <RodgerTheGreat> just another channel, another IRC community 05:13:05 <RodgerTheGreat> a little pearl of wisdom here: shit gets complicated when you let it. 05:14:26 <RodgerTheGreat> so, what's up with you? 05:17:31 <bsmntbombdood> #esoteric doesn't provide shell servers... 05:17:40 <RodgerTheGreat> that's true 05:35:38 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 05:43:50 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Nick collision from services.). 05:43:55 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 05:52:19 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 06:50:52 -!- jix has joined. 07:32:55 -!- immibis has joined. 07:42:54 <immibis> !glass {M[mc<25>=(_a)A!(_o)O!/(c)c1(_a)s.?"12345 "(_o)o.?\]} 07:43:08 <immibis> !glass {M[mc<25>=(_a)A!(_o)O!/(c)c<1>(_a)s.?"12345 "(_o)o.?\]} 07:43:12 <immibis> !ps 07:43:14 <EgoBot> 3 immibis: glass 07:43:17 <EgoBot> 4 immibis: glass 07:43:18 <EgoBot> 5 immibis: ps 07:43:21 <immibis> !kill 3 07:43:22 <immibis> !kill 4 07:43:24 <EgoBot> Process 4 killed. 07:43:26 <EgoBot> 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 123 07:43:28 <EgoBot> 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 123 07:45:31 <immibis> !glass {M[mc<25>=(_a)A!(_o)O!/(c)cc*<1>(_a)s.?="12345 "(_o)o.?\]} 07:45:34 <EgoBot> 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 07:46:57 <immibis> !glass {M[mx<1>=(_o)O!(_i)I!/(x)(_i)l.?(_o)o.?\]} 07:47:06 <immibis> !kill 3 07:47:08 <EgoBot> Process 3 killed. 07:47:13 <immibis> !daemon glasscat glass {M[mx<1>=(_o)O!(_i)I!/(x)(_i)l.?(_o)o.?\]} 07:47:18 <immibis> !glasscat test 07:47:31 <immibis> !glasscat hello? 07:47:35 <immibis> !undaemon glasscat 07:47:47 <immibis> !ps d 07:49:59 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:07:20 -!- toBogE has joined. 08:07:23 -!- toBogE has changed nick to egobot. 08:07:27 -!- egobot has changed nick to EgoBot. 08:07:53 -!- EgoBot has changed nick to EgoBotsClone. 08:17:37 -!- EgoBotsClone has quit (Excess Flood). 08:22:56 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 08:30:02 -!- EgoBotsClone has joined. 08:31:08 <immibis> !raw join #toboge 08:43:51 -!- sekhmet has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:43:51 -!- zuzu_ has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:08 -!- zuzu_ has joined. 08:46:08 -!- sekhmet has joined. 08:48:20 <EgoBotsClone> Finished channel list, receiving user list for each channel 09:26:47 -!- EgoBotsClone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:27:31 -!- EgoBotsClone has joined. 09:27:44 <immibis> !raw join #toboge 09:28:38 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]} 09:28:38 <EgoBotsClone> java.io.IOException: CreateProcess: "runglass "{M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]}"" error=2 09:30:02 <immibis> the system cannot find the file specified....... 09:33:30 -!- EgoBotsClone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:33:56 -!- EgoBotsClone has joined. 09:34:18 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]} 09:34:19 <EgoBotsClone> java.io.IOException: CreateProcess: "pause > NUL" "C:\djgpp\glass-0.7\glass "{M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]}"" error=2 09:34:29 <immibis> hmm 09:34:39 -!- EgoBotsClone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:34:58 -!- EgoBotsClone has joined. 09:35:12 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]} 09:35:31 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]} 09:35:31 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]} 09:35:58 <immibis> what does "ntvdm.exe: error setting up the environment for the new application" mean exactly? 09:36:15 <immibis> !raw join #toboge 09:39:25 -!- Guilt has joined. 09:40:05 <oklopol> "(RodgerTheGreat) in all honesty, I think quite a few of us here could get into MENSA if we wanted and yet... none of us are currently... how unusual..." how do you know? i almost went to the tests :P 09:46:07 <oklopol> i can't stand IQ tests, it's just about fast pattern matching 09:46:25 <oklopol> well, actually i can't stand them because of that for the simple reason that's what i'm particularly bad at ;) 09:47:25 <oklopol> uh, schools -> 09:51:06 -!- EgoBotsClone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:51:21 -!- EgoBotsClone has joined. 09:51:43 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]} 09:51:57 <immibis> come on.... 09:52:19 <immibis> what? error while setting up environment for the application!!! 10:04:18 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:10:16 <immibis> !raw join #tobog 10:10:17 <immibis> !raw join #toboge 10:10:21 <immibis> !raw part #tobog 10:11:40 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC. Friends hel). 10:12:02 -!- EgoBotsClone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:15:27 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/ (EOF)"). 10:26:19 -!- Guilt has joined. 11:28:25 -!- Tritonio has joined. 13:15:28 -!- jix has joined. 13:30:50 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:01:07 <oklopol> o 14:10:17 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 14:20:57 <RodgerTheGreat> oklopol: well, I'm kinda on the other end of the spectrum there 14:22:08 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm really, really good at the types of things on IQ tests (spatial thinking, pattern recognition, etc), and standardized tests in general, to the point that I have difficulty believing my results are anything but statistical anomalies 14:26:25 <RodgerTheGreat> the main problem is that IQ tests tend to place a tremendous amount of weight on some fairly specialized types of skills 14:27:29 <oklopol> i guess i get good scores too, but i feel stupid doing them, since i just get the trivial ones in the short time you have... 14:28:03 <oklopol> i guess everyone just gets the trivial stuff.... 14:28:53 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I'm familiar with testing and scoring procedure (another reason my scores should be taken with a grain of salt) and most modern tests weight the question 14:30:27 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/ (EOF)"). 14:55:12 -!- jix has joined. 15:04:11 <bsmntbombdood> we should write an esoteric compression algorithm 15:05:14 <bsmntbombdood> output brainfuck that, when executed, outputs the input? 16:17:10 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:22:01 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 16:33:19 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:04:39 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:52:09 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 17:53:06 -!- jix has joined. 18:11:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:15:56 -!- Guilt has joined. 18:19:03 -!- ehird` has joined. 18:29:50 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:38:07 <bsmntbom1dood> my hat+goggles are TEH SHIT 18:38:25 <oklopol> pix 18:38:41 <bsmntbom1dood> don't have any ;( 18:38:47 <oklopol> take! 18:38:47 <bsmntbom1dood> i might take one when i get home 18:39:03 <oerjan> hat+goggles? bsmntbom1dood is designing mad scientist wear? 18:39:14 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 18:39:34 <oklopol> hmm, bf_txtgen may need some optimizing to actually compress... 18:39:41 <bsmntbombdood> of course 18:40:05 <oklopol> !bf_txtgen aaaaaaaaaaaa 18:40:35 <bsmntbombdood> oerjan: they're not mad scientist like 18:40:55 <bsmntbombdood> the hat is a tetrahedron made out of duck tape and cardboard 18:41:00 <oerjan> given that each character in a brainfuck program takes only 8 possible values, some sequences of which are redundant or impossible... 18:41:00 <bsmntbombdood> and the goggles too 18:41:15 <oerjan> tetrahedron sounds pretty mad to me :D 18:42:05 <oerjan> but proper madness of course requires something better than cardboard. tinfoil perhaps? 18:42:07 <bsmntbombdood> the goggles are sort of square-piramids with the tips and bases cut off 18:42:20 <bsmntbombdood> i thought about covering with tinfoil 18:42:35 <oklopol> oerjan: true, i'm not saying it doesn't compress anything 18:43:30 <oerjan> oklopol: basically you are immediately at at least a 3/8 handicap 18:44:00 <oerjan> however given that i've heard english text only has 1 bit per character information, there is still some wiggling room 18:44:08 <bsmntbombdood> well, you would only use 3 bits/instruction of course 18:45:32 <oklopol> 1 bit per character? darn, my conciseness-based conlang only does 75% compression compared to english :| 18:45:57 <oerjan> that figure may have been anecdotal though 18:46:16 <oklopol> indeed, sounds a bit of a coinsidence 18:46:52 <RodgerTheGreat> oklopol: In my crypto classes, I heard figures of at least 1.6 18:47:07 <RodgerTheGreat> (we covered a little compression) 18:47:15 <bsmntbombdood> i'm sure it varies greatly 18:47:19 <oklopol> 1.6 meaning? 18:47:29 <RodgerTheGreat> bits per character 18:47:30 <bsmntbombdood> bits of entropy per char 18:47:35 <RodgerTheGreat> yes 18:47:38 <RodgerTheGreat> what bsmntbombdood said 18:48:20 <oklopol> eh... that was kinda obvious, sorry :D 18:48:27 <RodgerTheGreat> have a look at the middle image here- http://folklore.org/projects/Macintosh/images/polaroids/polaroids.2.jpg 18:49:08 <RodgerTheGreat> what you see there is the original prototype interface for the Apple Lisa, the final version of which became the macintosh GUI. 18:49:39 <RodgerTheGreat> I like it 18:50:44 <RodgerTheGreat> imagine what computers would be like today if softkey-driven keyboard based UIs had become dominant back in the day. 18:53:13 <bsmntbombdood> the window manager i use is completely key driven 18:53:42 <RodgerTheGreat> that's not really the same thing, unless your "window manager" is mc 18:54:29 <bsmntbombdood> what's that? 18:54:38 <RodgerTheGreat> midnight commander? 18:54:48 <RodgerTheGreat> it's kinda like dosshell 18:55:03 <bsmntbombdood> i thought that was a file manager 18:56:11 <Sgeo> Linux Mint 3.1 is out! 18:56:24 <RodgerTheGreat> dosshell is a little more than a file manager 18:59:40 <oklopol> in case anyone happens to know how to get my own ip on ubuntu in python, i'd appreciate it 18:59:56 <oklopol> google only gives me getaddrinfo crap that only works on win 19:00:12 <Sgeo> Ask in #python ? 19:00:18 <oklopol> great idea! :) 19:20:27 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:34:56 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 19:38:45 <bsmntbombdood> ok oklopol i've got a pic 19:43:20 <bsmntbombdood> http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/hat_goggles.jpg 19:43:24 <bsmntbombdood> dunno why it's so grainy 19:44:32 <oklopol> i gotta get me one of those 19:46:07 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:47:13 * Sgeo can't wait to play with the new version of LM 19:47:36 * Sgeo is downloading it now 19:47:39 <oerjan> wait a minute, an actual, clear, part-of-face showing picture of bsmntbombdood? impossible :D 19:49:27 <SimonRC> have you seen the latest, greatest conspiracy theory? 19:49:44 <oerjan> hm? 19:49:57 <SimonRC> http://digg.com/videos/music/How_our_financial_system_really_works 19:50:47 <SimonRC> alas, the only way yet found to get a load of monkies to work hard is debt like that. 19:51:23 <bsmntbombdood> oerjan: only part of face, so it's good 19:51:55 * SimonRC presses the ENHANCE button 19:52:17 <bsmntbombdood> but the hat and goggles are way cool, right? 19:52:24 <bsmntbombdood> i wore them to school today 19:54:06 <ehird`> oerjan: WAIT WHAT 19:54:10 <ehird`> that's against the laws of nature 19:54:14 <ehird`> call the nature police 19:56:21 * Sgeo keeps downloading LM 19:56:22 <Sgeo> LM3.1 19:56:58 <SimonRC> what is that? 20:00:16 * oklopol is dissappointed no one misinterpreted him to refer to bsmntbombdood with his remark 20:00:29 <bsmntbombdood> ? 20:00:57 <oklopol> "(oklopol) i gotta get me one of those" 20:02:00 <bsmntbombdood> i know, i'm in high demand 20:04:38 <oklopol> really wore that to school? 20:04:49 <bsmntbombdood> yeah 20:05:00 <oklopol> i used to be a cook too... nowadays i don't bother going to school anymore :< 20:05:14 <oklopol> "cook" 20:05:16 <oklopol> loonie 20:05:20 * oerjan thinks the top of bsmntbombdood's head must be _really_ ugly. 20:05:20 <bsmntbombdood> kook 20:05:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 20:06:01 <bsmntbombdood> you've seen the top of my head before 20:06:03 <bsmntbombdood> i think 20:06:16 * SimonRC points out a picture he drew (explanation to follow at some point in the future): http://users.durge.org/~sc/Kigdatsi/pics/Kig_20070922.png 20:06:17 <bsmntbombdood> yeah http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/pic_3.jpg 20:06:19 * SimonRC goes to watch TV. 20:06:20 <oerjan> or maybe it's just that americans have really weird fashion sense 20:07:18 <bsmntbombdood> i don't get it 20:07:20 <oerjan> aha, i didn't know you were in the picture 20:08:07 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:08:12 <bsmntbombdood> SimonRC: dragon sex? 20:08:20 <oerjan> hm, maybe it's that "666" on his forehead he doesn't want to show, it's covered in both... 20:09:02 <bsmntbombdood> it's not intentionally covered in #3 20:09:27 <bsmntbombdood> i don't think we've ever seen pics of you oerjan ... 20:10:42 <oerjan> busted! 20:11:05 <oklopol> i'm actually a lizard 20:12:01 <bsmntbombdood> kinky 20:12:20 <oerjan> i used to have a pass photo on my homepage but a friend said i looked like a Hitlerjugend so i took it away... i don't actually have any kind of digital camera 20:12:31 <oerjan> or scanner. 20:12:44 <bsmntbombdood> excuses, excuses 20:14:00 <bsmntbombdood> O.o xkcd jokes reuse! 20:14:07 <oerjan> still in the directory though - http://oerjan.nvg.org/face.gif~ but it's at least 10 years old 20:14:44 <bsmntbombdood> that's hitlerjugend like? 20:14:58 <ehird`> i can see the resemblence! .. no i can't 20:15:10 <oklopol> oerjan: that can't be you! 20:15:19 <ehird`> also, oerjan, i'm going to ignore that photo because my mental-image-o-tron does not percieve you as looking like that 20:15:21 <ehird`> have fun 20:15:24 <oerjan> it was a friend with a weird sense of humor :) 20:15:33 <oerjan> heh :D 20:15:45 <oklopol> because of the reason ehird` said 20:15:51 <Sgeo> oerjan of FRC! 20:16:14 <oklopol> norwegians never pose for a pic without a massive cod in their hand! 20:16:19 <oerjan> Sgeo: what, you recognize the picture? O_O 20:16:23 <Sgeo> hm? 20:16:38 <Sgeo> No, it's just that you are of the Fantasy Rules Comittee 20:16:46 <Sgeo> right? 20:16:55 <oerjan> used to be, yes. 20:17:34 * Sgeo used to love reading the archives 20:17:50 * Sgeo still does actually 20:17:54 <bsmntbombdood> germany is O.o 20:18:02 <oerjan> i just thought if you were on FRC, you might actually have seen that picture when it was on my homepage :D 20:18:03 <bsmntbombdood> you can't say "sieg heil"?!? 20:19:00 <oerjan> oklopol: i _hate_ fishing despite that both my grandfathers were fishermen and my father loves it 20:19:07 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: you can't do shit in germany because of the whole nazi thing 20:19:23 <bsmntbombdood> yeah 20:19:24 <oerjan> more or less the same with skis, btw 20:19:31 <bsmntbombdood> fighting opression with opression! 20:19:49 <ehird`> oppression i think you mean 20:20:00 <bsmntbombdood> yes 20:20:56 <oklopol> oerjan: i'll just ignore that and continue to think of you as a long-haired fishing-loving satan-worshipper! 20:21:36 * oklopol listens to a lot of death metal 20:21:46 <oklopol> or what's it called 20:21:48 <ehird`> heh 20:21:59 <oklopol> i'm very bad with genres :) 20:22:04 <bsmntbombdood> norwegian death metal? 20:22:08 <oerjan> just to completely ruin everything, i must mention that i love ABBA :D 20:22:11 <oklopol> black i guess 20:22:20 <oklopol> :D 20:22:32 <bsmntbombdood> btw, death metal sucks 20:22:45 <oklopol> i'm not sure what death metal is. 20:22:47 <oklopol> but i love mayhem 20:22:55 <bsmntbombdood> so does black metal 20:22:57 <oklopol> and dimmu :P 20:23:03 <oklopol> what's wrong with it? 20:23:24 <bsmntbombdood> lol, dimmu 20:23:33 <bsmntbombdood> "death cult armageddon" 20:24:55 <oklopol> no one takes the lyrics seriously :P 20:25:14 <oklopol> it's just nice music 20:25:32 <bsmntbombdood> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dc/Gorgorothvid.jpg 20:25:40 <bsmntbombdood> omg they r k00l!!!!!!!! 20:26:32 <ehird`> Haikus are fun/but this is not/a haiku 20:27:23 <oklopol> verry cool :D 20:29:36 <oklopol> i agree that is one ridiculous outfit, but i don't understand people who wear anything but black t-shirts anyway 20:29:45 <ehird`> Haikus are fun/but this is not/a haiku/haikus have no more than 3 lines 20:30:35 <bsmntbombdood> lol there's a death metal band called necrophagia 20:30:45 <bsmntbombdood> that's fuuuny 20:31:06 <oklopol> :DD 20:31:12 <oklopol> gorgasm is one of my favorite 20:31:14 <oklopol> *s 20:31:33 <oklopol> cannibal corpse is a classic of course, but that's usually pretty dull melodically 20:34:26 <bsmntbombdood> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_Yngve_Ohlin 20:34:32 <bsmntbombdood> ^^ that guy is also funny 20:37:26 <oklopol> was your reason for death metal sucking the fact the people who make it are idiots? :P 20:37:39 <oklopol> or do you have something against the actual music? 20:37:47 <bsmntbombdood> i just don't like the music 20:38:17 <oklopol> you must not have heard gorgasm, it's absolute beauty 20:38:27 <bsmntbombdood> doom metal is much better 20:38:38 <oklopol> hmm... can you give me an example band :P 20:38:44 <oklopol> i have no idea what that is 20:38:49 <bsmntbombdood> candlemass, black sabbath 20:40:44 <oklopol> oh 20:41:15 <oklopol> i haven't heard much black sabbath 20:44:15 <oklopol> hehe, this is some groovy rock 'n' roll ;) 20:44:48 <bsmntbombdood> yeah, black sabbath is good 20:45:19 <oklopol> do not turn my sarcasm around! 20:45:40 <bsmntbombdood> huh? 20:46:15 <oklopol> you like rock 'n' roll? 20:46:27 <bsmntbombdood> yes 20:46:32 <oklopol> ah 20:46:36 <oklopol> i didn't think anyone would 20:47:46 * oerjan beats oklopol with a stick 20:48:30 <oklopol> :D 20:49:00 <oklopol> abba is better than sabbath 20:49:10 <oklopol> well, according to this one random song i heard. 20:49:10 <bsmntbombdood> lololol 20:49:22 <bsmntbombdood> abba is terrrrrible 20:49:38 * Sgeo wants to play some Fantasy Chess 20:50:13 <oklopol> the solo part is okay 20:50:50 <oklopol> abba, like most pop, occasionally has nice melodies, but uses too little of them per song 20:54:12 <bsmntbombdood> oklopol: you probably listened to bad sabbath 20:55:26 <oklopol> i may have, these ancient bands i've doomed to be bad for no apparent reason sometimes turn out to be pretty decent. 20:56:25 <bsmntbombdood> ancient bands are the only good ones 20:58:22 <oerjan> everything went downhill after Akhenaton's Sun Hymn, really 20:59:02 <bsmntbombdood> damn straight 20:59:20 <oklopol> music gets better all the time 21:00:21 <oklopol> even pop nowadays sometimes sounds like music from time to time 21:00:31 <oklopol> + occasionally 21:02:30 <bsmntbombdood> whooooaaa i'm seeing flying starts 21:02:33 <bsmntbombdood> *stars 21:02:40 <bsmntbombdood> crazy 21:06:38 <oerjan> it's probably just a side effect of having a tetrahedron on your head. watch out for weird time distortions. 21:06:54 <Sgeo> heh 21:16:49 <oklopol> when i woke up 3 hours ago, i actually felt like i could do something for a change 21:17:00 <oklopol> i now realize i did not 21:18:48 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:33:49 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:09:06 -!- cherez has joined. 22:09:24 -!- cherez has left (?). 22:28:20 <lament> taste in music is subjective, surprise! 22:37:03 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 22:39:39 -!- Sgeo has joined. 2007-09-26: 01:04:02 -!- clog has joined. 01:04:02 -!- clog has joined. 02:14:04 -!- immibis has joined. 02:14:52 -!- EgoBotsClone has joined. 02:15:10 <immibis> !raw nick toBogE 02:15:10 -!- EgoBotsClone has changed nick to toBogE. 02:15:21 <immibis> !raw join #toboge 02:18:55 -!- ihope__ has joined. 02:19:14 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope. 02:22:20 <immibis> where is egobot? 02:24:46 <ihope> Taking a nap, I guess. 02:25:12 <ihope> GregorR, if EgoBot isn't being serviced, I hereby do nothing to you. 02:26:12 <immibis> it crashed last night when i tried to run a glass daemon 02:27:01 <ihope> Ah. 02:27:10 <ihope> So it must be receiving medical attention. 02:27:40 <immibis> the command was !daemon glasscat glass {M[mx<1>=(_o)O!(_i)I!/(x)(_i)l.?(_o)o.?\]} 02:31:42 <immibis> bots don't take naps or require medical attention. 02:32:53 <toBogE> I am taking a nap now. 02:32:59 -!- toBogE has changed nick to toBogE_away. 02:33:02 <immibis> wtf 02:33:13 <toBogE_away> Zzzzzz 02:33:15 <toBogE_away> Zzzzzz 02:33:26 <toBogE_away> ZzzOW! I fell out of bed! 02:34:10 -!- toBogE_away has changed nick to toBogE_hospital. 02:34:14 <ihope> Bots can take naps just fine. 02:34:17 <immibis> maybe they do... 02:34:38 <toBogE_hospital> immibis 02:34:44 <toBogE_hospital> anyone 02:34:47 <toBogE_hospital> help me 02:34:52 <immibis> lol 02:34:55 <immibis> !raw nick toBogE 02:34:55 -!- toBogE_hospital has changed nick to toBogE. 02:34:57 * ihope puts lots of bandages on toBogE_hospital 02:35:04 <immibis> !raw ns identify EGOBOT 02:35:06 <immibis> oops 02:35:16 <ihope> Have you ever taken a bot offline to allow it to think for a while? 02:35:22 <immibis> why did i forget to do that in #toboge 02:35:24 <immibis> no 02:35:27 <ihope> Is that its password? :-P 02:35:28 <immibis> when its offline its not running 02:35:30 <immibis> so its not thinking 02:35:34 <immibis> its nickserv password, yes 02:35:40 <ihope> Well, if you were to do that, it'd be thinking during that time. 02:35:53 * immibis changes toboge's nickserv password 02:36:05 <immibis> !raw privmsg nickserv :set password IAmToboge 02:36:07 <immibis> d'oh 02:36:14 <immibis> wrong channel again 02:36:24 -!- ihope_ has quit (Connection timed out). 02:36:34 -!- toBogE has quit (Nick collision from services.). 02:36:46 -!- EgoBotsClone has joined. 02:36:58 <pikhq> Are you surprised? 02:37:02 <immibis> nop 02:37:04 <immibis> nope 02:37:09 <immibis> thank you auto-reconnect though 02:37:15 <pikhq> ;) 02:37:15 <ihope> pikhq: did you do something semievil? 02:37:19 <ihope> :-) 02:37:23 <pikhq> ihope: Just a ghost. 02:37:31 <immibis> yes, he /ns ghost toboge IAmToboge 02:37:50 -!- EgoBotsClone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:37:56 -!- immibis has changed nick to toBogE. 02:38:03 <ihope> pikhq: that was pretty talented of you. :-P 02:38:10 <toBogE> password changed. 02:38:39 <pikhq> Takes a lot of skill. :p 02:39:06 <toBogE> i just made it something that even i'm not likely to remember... 02:39:11 -!- toBogE has changed nick to EgoBotsClone. 02:39:30 -!- EgoBotsClone has changed nick to immibis. 02:39:36 <immibis> and egobotsclone is now linked to toboge 02:39:56 * immibis starts netbeans to change toboge's password 02:40:21 <immibis> so it won't need to re-identify when it logs in as egobotsclone 02:43:46 <immibis> pikhq, what is your password? 02:44:25 <pikhq> char pikhq.password = {}; 02:44:28 <pikhq> Err. 02:44:35 <pikhq> char pikhq.password[10] = {}; 02:45:17 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sqeo. 02:45:21 <immibis> what language is that? 02:45:30 <pikhq> Perfectly valid psuedoC. 02:46:47 <immibis> and what are the contents of the array? 02:47:06 <Sqeo> immibis, none now apparently 02:47:16 <pikhq> 0. 02:47:24 <immibis> so it's a 0-length array 02:47:25 <immibis> ? 02:47:34 <pikhq> The unspecified values in a static initialiser for an array or struct are 0. 02:47:38 <immibis> [13:46] --NickServ-- Password Incorrect 02:47:52 <Sqeo> oO You have NULs in your password? 02:47:54 <pikhq> No, it's an array of length 10. 10 0s. 02:47:55 <immibis> it's not 0000000000 either 02:48:08 <pikhq> Sqeo: As far as he knows. 02:48:08 <Sqeo> %00 02:48:19 <immibis> it's not %00%00%00%00%00 either 02:48:32 <Sqeo> LOL not what i meant 02:48:49 <pikhq> immibis: You're entering it wrong, anyways. 02:48:49 <Sqeo> How does one type in a NUL? 02:49:00 <immibis> alt-0000 02:49:51 <immibis> hold alt and type 0000 on the numeric keypad then release alt 02:49:54 <Sqeo> test 02:50:00 <Sqeo> %07 02:50:01 <Sqeo> hm 02:50:08 <immibis> of course, you can't display it or send it to irc... 02:50:13 <Sqeo> ‮Test 02:50:21 <immibis> and i don't think your os will let you type it probably. 02:50:52 <g4lt-sb100> no wai 02:51:26 <pikhq> It would if it conformed to the GNU coding standards. 02:51:31 <Sqeo> Test‪test‬yrest​t‌tâ€test‮testingyay!‭moretest!test 02:51:48 <immibis> '…ú£41‹æê¦a-Ç8??+¦¦?¯ÇüéâäàåçêëèïîìÄÅÉæÆôöòûùÿÖÜ¢£ 02:52:01 <g4lt-sb100> :þ 02:52:02 <immibis> !binascii 00000000 02:52:14 <immibis> oops forgot to run toboge 02:52:40 <Sqeo> 012‮345‭6789 02:52:48 <Sqeo> How does everyone see that? 02:52:52 -!- EgoBotsClone has joined. 02:52:57 <Sqeo> I see 0126789543 02:53:00 <Sqeo> Everyone else? 02:53:01 <immibis> !binascii 00000000 02:53:09 <g4lt-sb100> I see ********* 02:53:53 <Sqeo> It has a bunch of right-to-left and left-to-right embedded in it 02:55:52 <immibis> i see 012<a with hat><euro sign><R in a circle>345<a with a hat><euro sign>-6789 02:57:08 * Sqeo sees it as 0126789543 03:00:33 * immibis sees 012<a with hat><euro sign><R in a circle>345<a with a hat><euro sign>-6789 03:00:41 <immibis> 012678943 03:00:50 <immibis> 012‮345‭6789 03:01:02 <immibis> are those two the same or different? 03:03:50 <immibis> who sees them as the same? 03:04:29 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out). 03:09:56 -!- Sqeo has changed nick to Sgeo. 03:10:53 -!- EgoBotsClone has quit (Nick collision from services.). 03:11:00 -!- EgoBotsClone has joined. 03:12:27 <immibis> !binascii 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 03:13:30 <immibis> !binascii 00110000 00110001 00110011 00110100 00110101 00110110 00110111 00111000 00111001 00111010 00111011 00111100 00111101 00111110 00111111 03:13:31 <EgoBotsClone> 013456789:;<=>? 03:13:40 <immibis> oops, missed 2. 03:14:47 * Sgeo sees the first as 012678943' 03:14:51 <Sgeo> erm no ' 03:14:58 <Sgeo> the second as 0126789543 03:15:13 <Sgeo> wrt the "are those two the same or different?" 03:15:20 <immibis> sorry my mistake 03:15:36 <Sgeo> hms? 03:15:40 <immibis> who sees 0126789543 as different from 012‮345‭6789 03:15:42 <immibis> i forgot 5. 03:16:04 * Sgeo sees them the same 03:16:26 <Sgeo> But they behave differently in the chatbox 03:16:31 <Sgeo> Try moving the cursor around 03:16:43 <Sgeo> Or going to the beginning and deleting 03:16:53 <Sgeo> Wellbye 03:17:01 <immibis> no, i see it as normal characters 03:22:15 <immibis> does anyone have a glass interpreter in brainfuck? 03:23:13 <immibis> !echo My Glass interpreter is faulty. 03:23:22 <immibis> hello... 03:23:28 <immibis> !raw privmsg #esoteric :TEST 03:23:28 <EgoBotsClone> TEST 03:23:34 <immibis> ? 03:23:45 <immibis> !cat My Glass interpreter is faulty 03:23:46 <EgoBotsClone> My Glass interpreter is faulty 03:23:48 <immibis> h 03:23:49 <immibis> oh 03:26:22 <immibis> the esolangs wiki homepage is out of date 03:26:31 <immibis> "Waiting for the results of the *2006* esolang contest" 03:32:58 <pikhq> No, that's sadly quite valid. 03:33:09 <immibis> you... 03:33:10 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Sukoshi: Hurry up. You've had over a year. 03:33:13 <immibis> you haven't got the results? 03:33:34 <pikhq> Yeah. 03:33:39 <immibis> er... 03:33:40 <immibis> er.. 03:33:40 <immibis> er.. 03:34:40 <immibis> does anyone know if there is a glass interpreter in brainfuck? 03:35:05 <immibis> *if* 03:35:19 -!- EgoBotsClone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:41:30 <pikhq> Doubtful at best. 03:41:51 <pikhq> Although you may feel free to port a C++ program to Brainfuck. ;) 03:43:40 <immibis> does glass have comments? 03:45:28 <pikhq> 'This, IIRC, is a Glass comment.' 03:45:58 <immibis> or of course "So is this, well sort of", 03:46:04 <immibis> which pushes a string and pops it. 03:46:22 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to CaptainObvious. 03:46:28 -!- CaptainObvious has changed nick to Sgeo. 03:47:15 <immibis> sgeo: you know nick changes apply to all channels you're on? 03:47:22 <Sgeo> yes 03:47:24 <Sgeo> ofc 03:47:34 <Sgeo> But I only care about one chan at a time 04:03:58 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:05:57 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: what? 04:06:11 <RodgerTheGreat> oh yes 04:06:45 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to DesuDesu. 04:06:55 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: with the power vested in me by the committe, I award you this trophy engraved with the words "impatient douchebag". Congratulations, man. 04:07:31 -!- DesuDesu has changed nick to Sgeo. 04:08:54 <pikhq> Hahah. 04:09:20 <immibis> what committee 04:09:30 -!- immibis has changed nick to immibis_. 04:09:30 <pikhq> Sgeo: Needs more ã§ã™. 04:09:50 * Sgeo was changing his name to that because I thought it was blocked in some other channel 04:11:08 -!- immibis_ has left (?). 04:11:14 -!- immybo has joined. 04:11:27 <immybo> hi 04:11:53 <RodgerTheGreat> immybo: yeah, our committing skills are pretty much unparalleled. 04:12:19 <RodgerTheGreat> assuming I'm answering the right person 04:12:43 -!- immybo has changed nick to immibis. 04:13:29 <RodgerTheGreat> excellent. I am a ninja. 04:13:44 -!- immibis has changed nick to a_ninja. 04:13:49 <a_ninja> no. i am a_ninja. 04:13:53 -!- a_ninja has changed nick to immibis. 04:14:36 <pikhq> ã°ã‹ãªã«ã‚“ã˜ã‚ƒã«ãªã‚ŠãŸã„人。…… 04:14:46 <immibis> ã°ã‹ãªã«ã‚“ã˜ã‚ƒã«ãªã‚ŠãŸã„人。…… yourself. 04:15:42 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: you know what's foolish? 04:15:59 <immibis> æçèéêëìíîïğñòóôõö÷øùúûüışÿ 04:16:03 <RodgerTheGreat> .... I dunno, I had a cool followup to that, but it kinda left. 04:16:32 -!- ehird` has joined. 04:17:37 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Hahah. 04:17:48 <pikhq> immibis: Just saying "stupid ninja wannabe". . . 04:18:01 <immibis> how do you keep an idiot in suspense? 04:19:13 <RodgerTheGreat> I have developed a "magic trick" which is, all things considered, pretty unreal 04:19:27 <RodgerTheGreat> it's very simple- you can try it yourself. 04:19:29 <immibis> do you want to know how to keep an idiot in suspense? 04:19:32 <RodgerTheGreat> obtain an apple. 04:19:47 <RodgerTheGreat> immibis: I refuse to answer purely hypothetical questions 04:20:00 <immibis> do you want to know how to keep an idiot in suspense? 04:20:05 <RodgerTheGreat> with said apple, present it to someone 04:20:05 <immibis> hang him from the ceiling. 04:20:16 <RodgerTheGreat> ahah. ahah. 04:20:41 <RodgerTheGreat> honestly, I thought you were just going to leave that question hanging, not unlike "to amuse an idiot, flip this over" 04:21:43 <RodgerTheGreat> I kinda missed an important part of preparation here, because we want a piece of paper in our pocket upon which is written what the person will say next 04:21:47 <RodgerTheGreat> more on that later 04:22:22 <RodgerTheGreat> when the other person is holding the apple, ask them "when you're holding that apple, what do you feel like doing?" 04:22:23 -!- cmeme has quit (Excess Flood). 04:22:33 <immibis> cmeme talks? 04:23:06 <RodgerTheGreat> they will answer, based on a survey of over 40 people, "I want to throw it" or a variation thereof. You then produce the piece of paper and impress them with your mindreading skills. 04:23:25 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 04:23:34 <RodgerTheGreat> it sounds stupid, but my experimental results with this have been absolutely amazing 04:23:57 -!- cmeme has joined. 04:24:26 <Sgeo> Bye all! 04:24:30 <RodgerTheGreat> cya 04:24:45 <RodgerTheGreat> any thoughts on the "Apple Experiment"? 04:28:15 <pikhq> :) 04:28:19 <pikhq> Trying it. 04:29:20 <RodgerTheGreat> a tip: 04:29:28 <RodgerTheGreat> give them a few seconds to hold it in their hands 04:29:57 * pikhq happily listens to some They Might be Giants 04:30:13 <RodgerTheGreat> if you ask the question when they have it settled into their palm, they seem to leap more immediately to "throw" 04:31:35 <RodgerTheGreat> in order to isolate any other variables, my tests have been conducted with a granny smith and some kind of dark red apple, both at room temperature 04:31:58 <RodgerTheGreat> some people have suggested that warmer apples are less likely to generate an "appetizing->food" type response 04:32:02 -!- Robdgreat has quit ("Error 1606. Press any key to continue."). 04:33:03 <RodgerTheGreat> if pikhq confirms anything similar to my results in a different test environment, we can get some conclusive data by holding a properly conducted double-blind study 04:33:35 <RodgerTheGreat> I fear suggestibility may play a large part in this 04:41:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:47:18 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: how's that experiment going? 04:49:34 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I meant "trying it tomorrow". XD 04:49:48 <pikhq> You know, when I'm around *conscious* people. 04:50:24 <RodgerTheGreat> oh 04:50:28 <RodgerTheGreat> very well 05:00:57 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 05:11:45 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out). 05:47:28 -!- Robdgreat has joined. 05:51:39 -!- ehird`_ has joined. 06:06:08 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC. Few women a). 06:23:41 <GregorR> They're having the Free Baby Expo. 06:23:50 <GregorR> Nice, because babies are usually pretty expensive. 06:42:46 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:53:54 -!- bsmntbom1dood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:57:14 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:30:21 -!- ehird`- has joined. 09:42:10 -!- Guilt has joined. 09:42:38 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit ("using sirc version 2.211"). 09:47:02 -!- ehird`- has quit. 10:04:27 -!- ehird`_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 10:07:05 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 10:25:51 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )"). 10:30:16 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/ (EOF)"). 11:07:04 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:20:39 -!- SEO_DUDE15 has joined. 11:49:38 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: well, not techincally dragons 11:49:46 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: and more foreplay than sex 11:49:54 <SimonRC> but otherwise, yes 11:50:09 * SimonRC realises that that might be a bit puzzling out of context 11:50:33 <SimonRC> (my pic http://users.durge.org/~sc/Kigdatsi/pics/Kig_20070922.png ) 11:50:55 <SimonRC> according to people elsenet, it is "cute" 12:16:31 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:44:16 -!- SEO_DUDE15 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:44:35 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:16:09 <SimonRC> hi 13:38:03 -!- Guilt has joined. 13:52:29 -!- jix has joined. 14:08:06 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:08:16 -!- jix has joined. 14:28:40 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: but how, praytell, do they store the free babies? Surely not in plastic storage bins! 14:29:04 <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: that image mildly disturbs me 14:29:16 <SimonRC> why? 14:29:26 <RodgerTheGreat> I dunno 14:29:36 <SimonRC> It is cute and loving 14:29:55 <RodgerTheGreat> probably because whenever you see something like that on the internet, you know there's more 14:30:09 <RodgerTheGreat> something wicked this way comes, etc 14:32:31 <SimonRC> Rule 34 applies here I know. 14:32:54 <SimonRC> A dragon friend of mine has dragon porn, apparently. 14:33:14 <RodgerTheGreat> it just kinda peaks my "creepy furry porn" meter, and makes me afraid 14:33:24 <SimonRC> they aren't furries, for a start 14:33:53 <SimonRC> and there is some extremely disturbing stuff in my head that will remain in my head or nowhere 14:33:57 <RodgerTheGreat> "scalies" 14:34:05 <SimonRC> no, they aren't humanoid 14:34:26 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 14:34:56 <SimonRC> they look like dragons, and their natural stance is 4-legged 14:36:15 <SimonRC> if they stand on 2 legs, they look less suited for it than (say) allosaurus 14:36:21 <SimonRC> so no, not furries 14:37:38 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: but yeah, maybe not totally suitable for human consumption 14:38:00 * SimonRC is glad that he didn't explain the significance of what is happening. 14:38:05 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:11:27 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 15:20:29 <SimonRC> hi 16:03:21 <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: yeah, I really don't want to know 16:03:37 <RodgerTheGreat> everyone has their little fantasies, and they belong inside one's skull 16:05:16 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/ (EOF)"). 16:07:03 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: you could hardly call what I drew explicit 16:07:25 <RodgerTheGreat> that's not my point at all 16:09:00 <SimonRC> hmm, ok 16:33:58 <GregorR> The foreplay before dragon blowjobs is just as explicit as dragon blowjobs. 16:35:24 <SimonRC> um 16:35:29 <SimonRC> it is not a blowjob 16:35:36 <SimonRC> look at the angle 16:35:49 <GregorR> Of course not - it's the foreplay :P 16:35:55 <SimonRC> aaaaaaaaargh! how many people have thought that! 16:36:25 <SimonRC> there is no oral sex or potential oral sex involved 16:36:55 <SimonRC> for a start, it doesn't work for them (they are Kigdatsi, notdragons) 16:37:27 <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: here's a shovel- it looks like you're working on digging yourself in deeper 16:38:20 * SimonRC digs up: 16:38:57 <SimonRC> it is (roughly speaking) a psychic effect, not a physical one 16:39:02 <SimonRC> mutter, mutter 16:39:09 * SimonRC moves the image 16:39:48 <RodgerTheGreat> because psychic blowjobs between Kigdatsi are much better than physical blowjobs between dragons. 16:41:11 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:41:54 <SimonRC> will you shut up about blowjobs 16:42:03 <SimonRC> you are reading too much into this 16:43:06 * RodgerTheGreat does his best John Hammond impression: 16:43:13 <RodgerTheGreat> "Welcome.... to the internet!" 16:45:03 <bsmntbombdood> it's hardly creepy 16:45:37 <bsmntbombdood> SimonRC: explain the significance of what is happening! 16:45:55 <SimonRC> in the species design I deliberately took the physical side out of their sex. it is all brain-to-brain stuff. About half of their brain mass is in 8 clusters around their body (distributed brain idea nicked from cockroaches). 16:46:02 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: http://users.durge.org/~sc/Kigdatsi/pics/invite-only/Kig_20070922.png 16:46:47 <SimonRC> the one on the left is using REMI to produce effects in one of the secondary brains of the one on the right 16:47:31 <bsmntbombdood> hmmm 16:47:38 <bsmntbombdood> how can you make babies unphysically? 16:48:11 <SimonRC> you don't 16:48:40 <SimonRC> if they want to reproduce they fuck the same way many other species do 16:50:30 <SimonRC> but they only need to reproduce once per lifetime to maintain the population level, of course 16:50:52 <bsmntbombdood> but there's no reward for reproduction, because they can just do it mentally? 16:51:14 <SimonRC> they rationally know that the population level must be maintained, so they do so. 16:51:56 <SimonRC> they are Kigdatsi, they use rationality in a lot of places where evolution fitted us with irrational desires 16:51:58 <bsmntbombdood> ah 16:52:02 <SimonRC> (they aren't evolved) 16:52:28 <bsmntbombdood> how are they created? 16:53:21 <SimonRC> they were created by a human civilisation more advanced that us in a parallel universe a couple of centuries ago 16:54:25 <SimonRC> It's called sci-f 16:54:27 <SimonRC> i 16:54:57 <SimonRC> they were thought up by me 16:58:45 <bsmntbombdood> when's the book come out? 17:07:28 <SimonRC> book? 17:07:51 <bsmntbombdood> stories are often recorded in books 17:08:06 <bsmntbombdood> and it sounds like you've got a story 17:08:36 <SimonRC> I have no skill at composing a narrative 17:08:41 <SimonRC> I made a setting 17:08:59 <SimonRC> and a species, and to some extent a culture 17:09:07 <SimonRC> but no storylines 17:09:16 <SimonRC> except for idle fantasy 17:09:36 <bsmntbombdood> too bad 17:11:06 <SimonRC> maybe I will become motivated to make a story outof it 17:30:36 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:31:37 <SimonRC> Sgeo: hi 17:31:42 <Sgeo> Hi SimonRC 17:55:46 -!- Tayn has joined. 17:56:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:58:56 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: like my hat? 18:10:27 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Address my non sequitur? 18:11:30 <bsmntbombdood> huh? 18:11:46 <GregorR> Exactly. 18:12:13 <bsmntbombdood> no me understando :( 18:13:12 <oerjan> sequire non est necesse 18:13:27 <oerjan> or something like that 18:15:04 <GregorR> Here, I'll translate that from humorlang to IRClang for you. 18:15:16 <GregorR> <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: like my hat? <GregorR> wtf 18:15:44 <bsmntbombdood> huh? 18:16:19 <Tayn> Non sequitur is a comment with no relation to the previous one. :P 18:16:50 <oerjan> Like rotten apples on a string. 18:17:24 <Tayn> Kinda. 18:19:11 <GregorR> Are you insulting my necklace? 18:20:18 <oerjan> Only before noon. 18:21:54 <Tayn> It is swollen. 18:22:56 * SimonRC sees that they are using the Dada library for SATRE. 18:24:40 <oerjan> the library fines are outrageous, though. 18:26:54 <oerjan> not expensive though 18:27:30 -!- Tritonio has joined. 18:33:33 -!- Tayn has changed nick to Shadikka. 18:33:45 <Shadikka> I wondered why NickServ said nothing to me :D 18:39:13 -!- Tritonio has quit ("Bye..."). 18:41:46 * SimonRC goes to dinner 18:57:04 <oklopol> i thought the pic wasn't explicit enough 18:57:15 <oklopol> we need to see some action 18:59:29 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 19:03:09 <oklopol> SimonRC: the thing about kingdatsi i read was so good i actually didn't know they were made by you even though you talk about them 24/7... this is a compliment, because the better a thing i see is, the harder for me it is to believe it's made by someone i know :P 19:03:16 <oklopol> i'm fairly sure you could write scifi 19:05:29 <oklopol> i don't read much scifi, so i may not be that reliable a critic, but try to be encouraged! 19:10:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out). 19:12:32 <SimonRC> oklopol: I am no good at characters 19:13:02 <SimonRC> oklopol: "action" isn't much to see anyway 19:13:30 <SimonRC> they have their foreheads pressed together. most else doesn't matter, though they will probably be lying down 19:14:31 <SimonRC> If reproducing as well, they will have their bodies together front-to-front, leaving few possible positions. 19:46:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:01:19 <SimonRC> hi 20:05:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 20:10:11 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 20:20:54 -!- bsmntbom1dood has quit (Connection timed out). 20:26:30 -!- Shadikka has quit. 20:38:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I've decided what my least favorite phrase is. 20:39:11 <RodgerTheGreat> I hate it when someone responds to a statement that's remotely technical in nature with "In English?" 20:39:36 <SimonRC> yes 20:39:45 <RodgerTheGreat> It indicates both a lack of understanding and a disdain for the ability to understand at the same time 20:40:06 <GregorR> "lolwut?" 20:40:18 * SimonRC sometimes says "Detail?", pronounced as the verb. 20:40:36 <SimonRC> oops, I meant "Detail.", of course 21:40:20 -!- ihope__ has joined. 21:40:40 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope. 21:42:33 -!- RedDak has joined. 21:45:19 <bsmntbombdood> oklopol: i'm listening to dimmu for you 21:45:24 <bsmntbombdood> so i can better make fun of you 21:55:36 <oklopol> hehe :P 21:55:45 <oklopol> i haven't listened to much of it, but great stuff 21:56:33 <bsmntbombdood> symphonic trumpets + black metal screaming 21:56:34 <bsmntbombdood> lol 21:56:59 <oklopol> heh, i doubt you can point out anything i admit to be a problem 21:57:08 <bsmntbombdood> actually, not bad 21:57:50 <oklopol> using different sets of instruments is never bad, unless it blurs the melody of course 21:57:52 <bsmntbombdood> and now strings! 21:59:09 <oklopol> do you happen to play stepmania? :P 21:59:24 <bsmntbombdood> what? 21:59:40 <oklopol> dance dance revolution? 21:59:49 <bsmntbombdood> no 21:59:52 <bsmntbombdood> why? 22:00:05 <oklopol> making gorgasm's anal scewer for it xD 22:00:36 <bsmntbombdood> hooray anal skewering! 22:00:51 <oklopol> hmm, is it with a "k"? 22:00:53 * oklopol fails 22:00:55 <bsmntbombdood> yes 22:00:58 <oklopol> dar. 22:00:59 <oklopol> *darn 22:01:09 <bsmntbombdood> i actually had to look up word in this song's title 22:01:13 <bsmntbombdood> "progenies" 22:01:50 <bsmntbombdood> but i don't understand how you could have a progeny of the apocalypse 22:02:15 <oklopol> try Carcass - Incarnated Solvent Abuse 22:02:18 <oklopol> i mean, lyrics 22:02:36 <oklopol> i had to check pretty much every word xD 22:02:47 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 22:02:50 <oklopol> http://www.siatec.net/archenemy/lyrics/deadeyesseenofuture.html well many, anyway 22:03:04 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:03:07 <bsmntbombdood> Reaving fats from corporal griskin 22:03:07 <bsmntbombdood> Culled...for sodden gelatine brayed 22:03:07 <bsmntbombdood> Skeletal groats triturated, desinently 22:03:07 <bsmntbombdood> Exsiccated, sere glutenate brewed 22:03:07 <bsmntbombdood> For frivolous solvent abuse... 22:03:12 <bsmntbombdood> that's hilarious 22:03:26 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure it's meant to be :D 22:03:47 <oklopol> carcass is great stuff too 22:04:15 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:04:51 <oklopol> i mostly enjoy the lyrics separately, you can't make the words out, so the screaming is just a nice additional noise 22:05:13 <bsmntbombdood> i can't find a definition of desinently 22:05:20 <oklopol> hmm 22:05:40 <oklopol> Des·i·nent 22:05:42 <oklopol> a. 22:05:43 <oklopol> [L. desinens, p. pr. of desinere, desitum, to leave off, cease; de- + sinere to let, allow.] 22:05:45 <oklopol> Ending; forming an end; lowermost. [Obs.] «Their desinent parts, fish.» B. Jonson. 22:05:48 <oklopol> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22:05:49 <bsmntbombdood> oh, "a termination or ending, as the final line of a verse." 22:06:05 <bsmntbombdood> skeletal goats pulverized, in the end?!?! 22:06:21 <oklopol> i think it's about grinding ppl into glue or smth 22:06:31 <oklopol> or goats 22:06:32 <oklopol> :D 22:06:54 <oklopol> i love death metal lyrics, make me laugh 22:07:04 <bsmntbombdood> oh haha 22:07:10 <bsmntbombdood> i thought it did say goats 22:07:22 <bsmntbombdood> groats are hulled grain 22:07:27 <bsmntbombdood> that makes even less sence 22:08:05 <oklopol> well, most of it is pretty clear anyways 22:08:53 <oklopol> once you look up the made up words they're using... 22:09:00 <bsmntbombdood> dehydrated, dry glutenate brewed for frivolous solvent abuse? 22:09:22 <bsmntbombdood> glutenate perhaps is bread? 22:10:19 <oklopol> i have no idea :D 22:10:25 <oklopol> something like that... 22:16:39 <bsmntbombdood> but how could you brew bread for solvent abuse? 22:17:03 <oklopol> i don't think it's bread 22:17:08 <oklopol> solvent is liquid? 22:17:09 <oklopol> hmm 22:17:22 <bsmntbombdood> solvents are liquids, yes 22:17:25 <oklopol> yeah 22:17:26 <oklopol> usually 22:17:40 <oklopol> urr so... not bread, methinks 22:17:54 <oklopol> something that's rich in gluten 22:17:59 <oklopol> is glutenate? 22:18:00 <oklopol> :D 22:18:00 <oklopol> hmm 22:18:03 <oklopol> no... 22:18:23 <bsmntbombdood> maybe 22:18:35 <oklopol> "ate" suffix is a bit hard to generalize.. 22:18:44 <oklopol> and can't find the meaning of "glutenate" 22:19:06 <bsmntbombdood> $x-ate usually means "of $x" 22:19:29 <oklopol> so, methinks it means the stuff you get from the bones when you grind them! 22:19:37 <bsmntbombdood> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ate 22:19:38 * oklopol is pretty certain there's grinding there 22:19:46 <bsmntbombdood> bones don't have gluten 22:20:00 <oklopol> i don't know much about biology 22:20:07 <oklopol> what has gluten? 22:20:10 <bsmntbombdood> grains 22:20:17 <oklopol> well yeah, but that's boring 22:20:43 <oklopol> gluten is used in glues 22:20:59 <bsmntbombdood> not the kind of glue you sniff 22:21:21 <oklopol> who said there's any sniffing? i was thinking more like a glue sex party 22:21:36 <oklopol> s/sex party/orgy 22:21:52 <bsmntbombdood> huh? 22:22:21 <oklopol> "frivolous solvent abuse" 22:22:29 <oklopol> that can mean a lot of things 22:22:35 * SimonRC goes to bed. 22:22:37 <oklopol> i assumed you assumed it meant the sniffing 22:22:54 <oklopol> in the middle of an interesting conversating like this :| 22:22:57 <oklopol> that's odd 22:23:26 <bsmntbombdood> i would assume solvent abuse is as in glue sniffing 22:23:45 <oklopol> that may be more probable than mine. 22:23:58 <bsmntbombdood> what's a glue orgy? 22:24:14 <oklopol> you can't imagine glue-related sex stuff? 22:24:31 <oklopol> millions of possibilities 22:24:48 <oklopol> but, as i said, yours may be a teensy bit more probable. 22:24:49 <bsmntbombdood> glue, my anti-lube 22:24:57 <SimonRC> OMG, we're stuck in this position! 22:24:59 * SimonRC goes to bed. 22:25:37 <oklopol> some people like cutting their genitals, i imagine being glued from ones penis into a vagina might be a lot nicer. 22:25:43 <oklopol> hmm 22:25:50 <oklopol> wonder if this is the right chan for this :P 22:25:59 <bsmntbombdood> of course it is 22:26:04 <oklopol> ah, of course 22:28:07 <bsmntbombdood> this album actually isn't bad 22:28:17 <bsmntbombdood> except for the screaming 22:28:28 <oklopol> http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/gorgasm/masticatetodominate.html#1 22:28:42 <oklopol> a bit easier 22:28:45 <bsmntbombdood> masticate to dominate LOL 22:29:16 <oklopol> read the lyrics of corpsefiend... :D 22:29:20 <bsmntbombdood> O.o 22:29:31 <bsmntbombdood> hooray torture-killings! 22:29:42 <bsmntbombdood> mass torture-killings 22:29:53 <bsmntbombdood> along with sexual gratification from said acts 22:30:10 <oklopol> that gets so overboard i can't imagine anyone taking those lyrics seriously, but fun stuff :DD 22:30:51 <bsmntbombdood> O.o.O 22:31:07 <bsmntbombdood> Razor's slice my cock's enticed. \ I feed from the pain, deep within my punctured cock. \ Veins exposed, spewing everywhere. 22:31:30 <oklopol> solid beauty 22:31:43 <bsmntbombdood> Searching for newly dead to excavate. \ I'll display her rotting corpse in erotic state. 22:32:19 <oklopol> that "relatives" part is unbelievable 22:33:08 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:33:24 <oklopol> who needs poetic lyrics? let's just think of something really obnoxious and write it down as it is 22:33:40 <bsmntbombdood> eeww, charred vaginal effluence 22:33:55 <oklopol> cannibal corpse does the same, but that's actually very popular, even you know it! 22:34:07 <bsmntbombdood> the lyrics are pretty poetic 22:34:16 <oklopol> some are 22:34:40 <oklopol> in Deadfuck, the vocalist is unbelievable 22:35:04 <oklopol> i've made a brainfuck-derivative called deadfuck in honor of thta :P 22:35:06 <oklopol> *that 22:36:39 <bsmntbombdood> they even sing about skull-fucking! 22:37:08 <oklopol> there was this great vid where this guy sang a song by cannibal corpse, with piano and acoustic bass 22:37:55 <oklopol> the intro was "i think the lyrics of cannibal corpse aren't that bad, but indeed quite beautiful, once you remove all the yelling" or something 22:38:12 <oklopol> and then he started singing about killing and raping a girl 22:38:19 <oklopol> and the whole audience laughed 22:38:22 <bsmntbombdood> lol 22:38:34 <oklopol> i can't find it... don't know what to search for... 22:40:15 <bsmntbombdood> Som en flokk av helveds opphav \ Og forvaltere av foraktens sønn \ Parerer vi deres list med avskyens prakt 22:40:19 <bsmntbombdood> what language is that? 22:40:38 <oklopol> cc has a song on their live album called "i cum blood", before the song the vocalist yells "this next song is about shooting blood out of you cock" 22:40:38 <bsmntbombdood> norwegian, probably 22:40:48 <oklopol> that's oerjan's language, methinks 22:40:49 <oklopol> yes 22:41:11 <oklopol> hmm, can't translate that :< 22:41:23 <oklopol> avsky is hatred or something 22:41:49 <oklopol> urgh, too different from swedish 22:51:12 <bsmntbombdood> aah 22:51:33 <bsmntbombdood> something like Like a flock of hellspawns \ And stewards of the son of despite \ We parry their guile with the magnificence of disgust 22:52:39 <oklopol> hmm 22:53:41 <oklopol> sounds right 23:07:09 <oklopol> finally ready 23:59:46 <oklopol> http://vjn.fi/oklopol/stepmania/ 2007-09-27: 00:07:25 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:11:53 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 00:18:42 -!- immibis has joined. 00:23:06 -!- immibis has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | IRP in #irp | Don't spam the channel with EgoBot commands, /query EgoBot. 00:26:19 <bsmntbombdood> lol. 00:26:40 <immibis> what? 00:31:03 <oklopol> not the first time someone puts themselves a reminder in the topic :P 00:31:18 <immibis> oh :-p 00:31:59 <oklopol> asdf, my stomach hurts 00:32:13 <immibis> asdf? 00:32:33 <oklopol> http://www.asdf.com/ 00:38:23 -!- immibis has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | IRP in #irp | Don't spam the channel with EgoBot commands, /query EgoBot | Rules: 1) Do what the topic says 2) Don't follow any rules, even this one 3) if you like role-playing games, go to http://arianne.sourceforge.net/. 00:38:35 <bsmntbombdood> oh no, not again 00:38:54 <immibis> what's not again? 00:39:33 <oklopol> metarules 00:39:37 <oklopol> in the topic 00:39:59 <oklopol> you were here when we had the last topicfest 00:40:06 <oklopol> i think... 00:40:58 <immibis> what's a topicfest? 00:41:23 -!- immibis has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | IRP in #irp | Don't spam the channel with EgoBot commands, /query EgoBot | Rules: 1) Do what the topic says 2) Don't follow any rules, even this one 3) if you like role-playing games, go to http://arianne.sourceforge.net/ 4) GO YELLOW TEAM!. 00:41:26 <oklopol> like a topic orgy, only more clothes and beer 00:41:32 <immibis> ? 00:41:38 <oklopol> ... 00:41:38 <oklopol> anyways 00:41:41 -!- immibis has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | IRP in #irp | Don't spam the channel with EgoBot commands, /query EgoBot. 00:41:56 <bsmntbombdood> lament: +t or +b please 00:42:06 <immibis> what's +b? 00:42:16 <immibis> oh 00:42:19 <bsmntbombdood> you banned 00:42:21 <oklopol> hehe :D 00:42:34 <immibis> i changed it back. 00:42:51 <immibis> is it too late to enter in last year's esolang contest? 00:43:10 <oklopol> ask sukoshi when she returns, i guess :P 00:43:16 <immibis> ok 00:45:57 <immibis> she's online. but not in any channels. 00:46:21 <oklopol> most likely means she's on +s channels 00:46:28 <immibis> +s? 00:46:34 <immibis> secret? 00:46:44 <oklopol> hmm... i recall you knew irc pretty well last time i talked to you :| 00:46:46 <oklopol> well yes 00:47:12 <oklopol> well, open her priv and ask, people love it when random people start harrassing them 00:49:37 <immibis> what? glass doesn't have xor? 00:50:04 <oklopol> hmm... i guess it just has arithmetic 00:50:35 <immibis> i'll just have to make do with plus-encryption then. 00:50:59 <immibis> what's the ascii code for 'A'? 00:51:03 <oklopol> if you don't need that 00:51:04 <oklopol> 65 00:51:12 <immibis> ok thanks 00:51:15 <oklopol> much speed, you can do boolean lists 00:51:27 <immibis> ? 00:51:31 <oklopol> for xor. 00:52:48 <oklopol> that is: xor can - surprise! - be emulated in any tc language 00:57:18 <immibis> even brainfuck? 00:58:32 <pikhq> Sure. 00:59:25 <immibis> where is egobot? 00:59:39 <oklopol> immibis: i hope that was a joke :P 01:00:00 <immibis> what was a joke? 01:00:18 <oklopol> unless you're the little brother you're always talking about 01:00:47 <immibis> i mean, not where is egobot, but why has he been taking a nap for at least 36 hours? 01:01:49 <oklopol> that "even brainfuck" was what i meant 01:02:01 <immibis> why 01:02:20 <oklopol> because i have a "clever guy" mark on your nick in my memory 01:02:31 <oklopol> don't erase that 01:02:49 <oklopol> (my clever guy -marks are 100% flood proof) 01:02:53 <immibis> ? 01:03:02 <immibis> oh 01:03:33 <immibis> duh...me be dumb...one plus one is...what does plus mean? 01:03:50 <oklopol> hard to explain 01:03:54 <oklopol> do you know numbers? 01:04:03 <immibis> duh...what numbers? 01:04:06 <immibis> lol 01:19:27 <immibis> does S.d divide after or before the character at pos, or does it remove the character at pos? 01:21:00 <immibis> cancel that last bit, i know it divides a string. 01:21:22 <oklopol> hmm... don't you have an interpreter? 01:21:46 <immibis> i have an interpreter 01:22:12 <immibis> or why would i be writing a program in glass? 01:22:41 <ihope> Number, you say... this sounds like an interesting concept. Can they be represented faithfully in ZF? 01:23:15 <immibis> what is ZF? 01:24:01 <ihope> Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, I believe. 01:24:08 <ihope> Not sure I'm spelling it right. 01:26:04 <bsmntbombdood> i think a PDA can add 01:26:05 <oklopol> ihope: i'd say yes, but it's just a hunch 01:26:43 <oklopol> the concept isn't all that clear to me yet 01:27:00 <oklopol> but i think it has something to do with amounts 01:27:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I drew a new comic this evening: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190852142-understanding.png 01:28:47 <bsmntbombdood> poor kids 01:29:15 <RodgerTheGreat> that's life 01:30:09 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: great stuff 01:30:17 <RodgerTheGreat> thanks 01:43:18 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:43:21 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:43:21 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:43:59 <ihope> RodgerTheGreat: is there more? 01:44:33 <RodgerTheGreat> ihope: well, it's part of a strip I draw for a local newsletter 01:45:13 <RodgerTheGreat> http://rodger.nonlogic.org/images/ <- look here, starting with Comic001 and continue in that fashion 01:45:32 * bsmntbombdood has a bookmarklet to do that 01:45:33 <RodgerTheGreat> but this is the latest strip 01:45:34 <oklopol> http://www.answers.com/topic/automata-based-programming <<< i knew someone has had to come up with that before me 01:46:12 <oklopol> i should read the internet someday... 01:46:54 <bsmntbombdood> lol @ 3 01:47:04 <RodgerTheGreat> heh 01:47:27 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: I'm more or less dead serious in that one 01:47:43 <bsmntbombdood> "dead" serious 01:47:44 <bsmntbombdood> hrr hrr 01:47:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm so punny. 01:48:21 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:49:40 <bsmntbombdood> heh pbf rocks 01:49:59 <RodgerTheGreat> yes 01:51:15 <bsmntbombdood> #11...some kid today was talking about that 01:51:32 <bsmntbombdood> i was forced to punch him in the face 01:51:56 <RodgerTheGreat> yup 01:53:18 <ihope> John Earnest? Hmm. 01:53:45 <bsmntbombdood> what's that? 01:53:55 <RodgerTheGreat> I have a name, y'know 01:54:11 <oklopol> i lost :< 01:54:14 <ihope> Most of us do. 01:54:14 <RodgerTheGreat> sorry to shatter the fourth wall of the internet and all 01:54:44 <oklopol> if someone asks me my name, i say oklopol 01:54:51 <ihope> If I ever create that website I'm after, you'll all get to see my name. 01:54:57 <ihope> Might happen, might not. 01:55:26 <oklopol> well i guess i say whichever pops first into my head 01:55:28 <ihope> Though once I get the hosting and such set up, a copyright notice will appear pretty quickly. 01:55:47 <bsmntbombdood> i have a name 01:55:58 <oklopol> i lost again :<< 01:56:04 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: i hate this game 01:56:07 <ihope> I think I can guess GregorR's name. 01:56:12 <ihope> oklopol: you lost The Game? 01:56:16 <ihope> If you didn't, then I did, I guess. 01:56:23 <oklopol> i did :< 01:56:26 <oklopol> two times in a row 01:56:32 <bsmntbombdood> where did this come from? 01:56:39 <ihope> What? 01:56:42 <oklopol> The Game 01:57:03 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: sorry to tell you this, but i'm fairly sure you lost the game 01:57:17 <ihope> You can't lose so soon after someone else's lost. 01:57:31 <ihope> You can only lose after it's been forgotten. 01:57:57 <oklopol> oh, wouldn't massive losing loops be nicer? 01:58:19 * ihope loses 01:58:20 * ihope loses 01:58:22 * ihope loses 01:58:24 <ihope> Sure. 01:58:46 <oklopol> eh, naturally you can't lose just after you have lost yourself, that'd be stupid 01:58:47 <RodgerTheGreat> you can always create your own mutated strain 01:59:28 <RodgerTheGreat> I've begun spreading a culture that has an additional rule: When everyone is infected, the game is over and something new will take it's place 02:00:05 <oklopol> but there's nothing wrong with a little X 02:00:12 <oklopol> now let me think of the word X. 02:00:21 <RodgerTheGreat> I'd really like a minor in Memetic Engineering, if it existed. 02:00:55 <oklopol> propagation. 02:00:56 <ihope> X is not a word. 02:01:34 <ihope> Create a command that accomplishes the same thing as this one and try to make it be obeyed as many times as possible. 02:01:59 <ihope> Look, mutating virus. 02:02:05 <oklopol> coool 02:02:09 <bsmntbombdood> WHERE DID THIS COME FROM?!?! 02:02:17 <oklopol> you know, i was thinking of mutating viruses today :| 02:02:30 <ihope> Where did what come from? 02:02:36 <ihope> oklopol: computer, biological, or memetic? 02:02:37 <oklopol> that's a *pretty scary* coincidence 02:02:43 <oklopol> computer 02:02:53 <oklopol> hmm, i don't even know what memetic is. 02:03:04 <ihope> One like mine. 02:03:09 <ihope> "Create a command that accomplishes the same thing as this one and try to make it be obeyed as many times as possible." 02:03:26 <ihope> Things like warnings are also memetic viruses. 02:03:35 <ihope> Warnings, factoids... 02:03:48 <bsmntbombdood> ihope: the game 02:06:34 <oklopol> memmity memetic 02:06:38 <oklopol> i should do some sleeping 02:06:41 <ihope> http://www.losethegame.com/origins.htm 02:11:22 <bsmntbombdood> stupid 02:11:38 <oklopol> the game or sleeping? 02:11:52 <oklopol> because i'm starting to think it's not such a good idea after all 02:11:54 <bsmntbombdood> the game 02:13:16 <ihope> DON'T SLEEP! 02:13:32 <ihope> Sleep is for the week. 02:13:43 <ihope> That is, all your sleep for the week must be done in one session. 02:13:49 <oklopol> but... it's the week right now :| 02:13:57 <oklopol> hmm 02:14:02 <bsmntbombdood> oklopol: sabbath bloody sabbath, nothing more to do, living just for dying, dying just for you 02:14:02 <oklopol> i see 02:14:22 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: i like you too 02:14:44 <oklopol> i guess i'll watch some futurama and forget my troubles 02:15:15 <ihope> So set your alarm for 6 AM Monday and by the crying gads don't go to sleep before Friday's stuff is over. 02:15:24 <bsmntbombdood> ? 02:16:01 <ihope> ! 02:16:12 <bsmntbombdood> . 02:16:32 <oklopol> okokofol! 02:17:27 <oklopol> ihope: but... i don't have stuff :< 02:18:14 <ihope> Then just wake up Monday and go to bed any time Friday or later. 02:19:02 -!- ihope__ has joined. 02:19:12 <oklopol> sounds like a plan 02:19:23 <oklopol> but i think i may have a few naps before friday... 02:20:34 <ihope__> That's fine, I guess. 02:20:37 <ihope__> But keep them short. 02:20:41 <ihope__> Wait, you don't have stuff? 02:20:43 <ihope__> Then sleep for 20 minutes every 4 hours, like Real Men do. 02:21:01 <bsmntbombdood> i wish i could do that :( 02:21:11 <bsmntbombdood> that would actually work with my school schedule, too 02:21:21 * ihope__ ponders his school schedule 02:21:47 <ihope__> 7:40-11:20 then 11:56-2:30, I guess. 02:21:55 <ihope__> Doable. 02:22:12 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: i have one complaint about your comics: Comic 010 and Comic18 aren't in alphabetical order :<< 02:22:33 <ihope__> You call that alphabetical? 02:22:36 <oklopol> yep 02:22:40 <oklopol> why not? 02:22:58 <oklopol> my alphabet is called ascii, but alphabetical nevertheless 02:23:02 <ihope__> Um... 02:23:21 <ihope__> Then they are in alphabetical order, no? 02:23:28 <bsmntbombdood> ihope__: do it! 02:23:30 <ihope__> comes before 1. 02:23:33 <bsmntbombdood> let's do it together 02:23:54 <oklopol> ihope__: what comes before 1? 02:23:57 <ihope__> Mis padres se enfadarían. 02:24:10 <ihope__> That's what we're learning in Spanish class. 02:24:19 <ihope__> oklopol: . 02:24:23 <oklopol> uberman would be easy if you had someone to do it with, physically that is. 02:24:35 <ihope__> SP. 02:24:37 <oklopol> since you could have naps when the other one is awake 02:24:56 <bsmntbombdood> oklopol: come here! 02:25:08 <oklopol> i have school :< 02:25:15 <bsmntbombdood> suuuuuure 02:25:21 <oklopol> but i might ;) 02:25:29 <oklopol> ihope__: i don't get that :| 02:25:37 <ihope__> Space comes before 1. 02:25:44 <oklopol> ah 02:25:44 <oklopol> i don't see spaces. 02:25:49 <oklopol> nnscript :P 02:25:57 <ihope__> Oh. 02:26:03 <oklopol> i mean, i don't see over one spaces next to each other 02:26:10 <oklopol> i don't know how to turn them of 02:26:12 <oklopol> *off 02:26:17 <oklopol> i guess it's called uninstall... 02:27:20 <oklopol> ihope__: okay okay, they are in alphabetical order, but there's definately something wrong with how the strip numbers are represented! 02:28:50 <oklopol> actually, what would be even better would be to have a group of people doing it, so you'd have nice peer pressure 02:28:54 <oklopol> i mean 02:28:56 <oklopol> uberman's 02:29:16 <oklopol> nothing wrong with a group of people just doing it though 02:29:45 <bsmntbombdood> doing it and IT 02:31:32 <oklopol> we should start arranging uberman orgies! "start uberman's through a week of hot steamy sex in good company!" 02:31:58 <oklopol> i've never been to a real orgy :< 02:32:09 <bsmntbombdood> definitely 02:32:24 <oklopol> i've been to certain orgy-like events though 02:32:34 <oklopol> but not often enough :( 02:32:36 <bsmntbombdood> o rly? 02:33:09 <oklopol> we used to have quite wild parties when i was in elementary school :D 02:33:25 <oklopol> elementary... 7-9th grades 02:33:26 <pikhq> Given that (IIRC) bsmntbombdood is *my* age, I doubt that he's been at one, either. 02:33:28 <oklopol> what's the term now 02:33:35 <pikhq> oklopol: Middle school? 02:33:39 <oklopol> i guess 02:34:29 <oklopol> pikhq: i think you're older than him 02:34:40 <bsmntbombdood> by a year or two, i think 02:34:45 <oklopol> unless your ages change magically. 02:34:50 <oklopol> like that could ever happen 02:35:10 <oklopol> i don't see how age has anything to do with having orgies 02:35:10 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.flemcomics.com/comics/20000824.jpg <--- urophagic humor anyone? 02:35:57 <bsmntbombdood> oklopol: customarily, young people have little sexual experience 02:36:00 <oklopol> opens slowly... i guess many people do 02:36:05 <oklopol> like it that is 02:36:25 <oklopol> well i guess that's pretty obvious 02:36:50 <oklopol> i guess what i meant is being young is no excuse for not having been to orgies 02:37:01 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out). 02:37:13 <oklopol> life should be about constant mating 02:37:22 <bsmntbombdood> no 02:37:25 <bsmntbombdood> mating fails 02:37:32 <oklopol> oh 02:37:37 <oklopol> why's that? 02:37:50 <bsmntbombdood> s/mating/sex/ 02:37:58 <oklopol> well yes, sorry. 02:39:57 <oklopol> it just turned out i'm gonna pass 0 courses this period \o/ 02:44:26 <bsmntbombdood> i sure could go for some molestation 02:44:55 * pikhq will arrange for that 02:44:56 <ihope__> oklopol: how many courses do you have? 02:45:02 <ihope__> And how many will you be failing? 02:45:03 * pikhq thought bsmntbombdood was 17. . . 02:45:03 <oklopol> i had 2 02:45:11 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: in 3 months 02:45:56 <bsmntbombdood> who will i get molested by? 02:46:04 <oklopol> i didn't go much to school, and our principal decided no courses will be passed unless one gets ones parents' to sign that they you haven't been to school 02:46:15 <ihope__> That they you haven't? 02:46:16 <oklopol> i forgot to return those in time 02:46:21 <oklopol> whoops. 02:46:27 <oklopol> that they know 02:46:38 <oklopol> and no ' 02:46:54 * ihope__ pretends to misunderstand 02:46:54 <oklopol> i did some refactoring and pressed enter a bit too early 02:47:12 <ihope__> Do some refactoring and press enter and it makes them be returned late? 02:48:23 <oklopol> hmm, almost 02:48:51 <bsmntbombdood> argh, i have homeworks 02:49:29 <bsmntbombdood> i have to write a presentation about the word "rampant" 02:50:19 <oklopol> i find it pretty odd my parents need to know whether i'm at school, 1) i'm 18 2) they don't care 3) i don't see them that often 4) i could quit school and the school would not tell my parents. 02:50:56 <oklopol> god i hate this system 02:51:09 <bsmntbombdood> let's go live as hermits 02:51:16 <bsmntbombdood> with buttsex, of course 02:51:29 <oklopol> both courses are mandatory, ofc, so i'm basically failing high-school unless i do something drastic. 02:52:02 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: that would be heaven 02:52:09 <oklopol> would there be brainfuck? 02:52:13 <ihope__> Something dramatic? 02:52:17 <bsmntbombdood> of course 02:52:22 <ihope__> Have you talked it over with... someone? 02:52:23 <bsmntbombdood> brainfuck and buttfuck 02:52:38 <ihope__> Like the principal. 02:52:53 <ihope__> Hmm, I wouldn't want to experience actual brainfuck from any direction. 02:53:12 <ihope__> Especially second person. That would be gross and possibly fatal. 02:53:17 <oklopol> ihope__: i have talked to random ppl on irc, i might go talk to the principal on friday, tomorrow i'm enjoying my day off no matter what the situation is ;) 02:53:25 <bsmntbombdood> brainfuck for the computers, buttfuck for the humans 02:53:48 <ihope__> Would it be brainfuck of the computers? 02:53:54 <oklopol> yes yes, but how would we get money for the electricity and the lotions? 02:54:08 <ihope__> Lotions? 02:54:14 <bsmntbombdood> yes, lotions 02:54:21 <oklopol> yes, and the gismos 02:54:23 <oklopol> *z 02:54:25 <ihope__> My. 02:54:25 <bsmntbombdood> we would sell pornographic films 02:54:33 <oklopol> ah, why didn't i think of that 02:55:10 <ihope__> So, am I still the youngest one here? 02:55:28 <oklopol> hard to say, youngest from the active ones. 02:56:44 <bsmntbombdood> in 1.25 i will legally be able to take naked pictures of myself! 02:56:45 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood is 15, clog is prolly <5, GregorR is... 18? immibis wouldn't tell me his age :P lament is older, i'm 18, pikhq is 17, RodgerTheGreat is 19, Sgeo is... 17? (random guess), SimonRC is... 17? 02:56:54 <bsmntbombdood> s/1.25/1.25 years/ 02:56:57 <bsmntbombdood> oklopol: 16 02:56:58 <Sgeo> lol random guess 02:57:01 <oklopol> sorry 02:57:04 <oklopol> i actually knew that. 02:57:08 <oklopol> typo 02:57:13 <oklopol> Sgeo: was it close? 02:57:16 <Sgeo> 18 02:57:23 <oklopol> darn, thought you might be 02:57:24 <Sgeo> Where did the guess come from? 02:57:35 <ihope__> My, this room is filled with teenagers. 02:57:36 <oklopol> i categorize ppl a lot in irc 02:57:51 <ihope__> (And surely GregorR's in his twenties?) 02:57:59 <oklopol> 18. 02:58:05 <oklopol> just nerd! 02:58:51 <oklopol> well, might be 19 already, ppl get older sometimes 02:59:08 <oklopol> but that's pretty recent, unless i'm completely mistaken 03:00:21 <pikhq> oklopol: I thought Gregor had a bachelor's already. ;) 03:00:33 <oklopol> might :| 03:00:54 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure he was 18 at some point! :D 03:01:10 <ihope__> Gregor is, was, or will be 18 at some point. 03:01:17 <ihope__> Unless he is not and will die before 18. 03:01:25 <ihope__> Is not and was not, that is. 03:01:36 <ihope__> And that would be a shame, really. 03:02:11 <oklopol> i'll have to check what a bachelor's is 03:03:01 <ihope__> Four-year degree? 03:03:24 <ihope__> oklopol: about what country do you live in? 03:03:33 <oklopol> about what? 03:03:39 <oklopol> i live in about denmark 03:03:49 <oklopol> also in almost estonia 03:03:55 <oklopol> yet not quite 03:04:10 <ihope__> I live sort of between Canada and Mexico. Closer to Canada, really. 03:04:17 <oklopol> i do know 03:04:51 <ihope__> Sort of easy to tell, really. 03:05:02 <ihope__> I'm using the word "really" too much, really. 03:05:39 <oklopol> ihope__: about why did you ask? 03:06:45 <ihope__> Wondering about how school is organized over there. 03:07:26 <oklopol> i'm sort of an expert on that, up to high-school level 03:07:43 <oklopol> had a 11-year education about it 03:09:07 <bsmntbombdood> http://dl.ziza.ru/other/092007/14/pics/43_pics_44538.jpg 03:09:10 <oklopol> school doesn't teach anything before university, and once you get there, you're already learned everything it has to offer, unless you've really tried not to. 03:09:15 <bsmntbombdood> i think i better start importing weed to japan 03:09:19 <oklopol> you've 03:09:28 <bsmntbombdood> oklopol: i've experienced that 03:11:13 <ihope__> I think my calculus class hasn't really been teaching me much. 03:11:19 <ihope__> Rather weird, really. 03:11:33 <oklopol> ihope__: we didn't have calculus at your level. 03:11:54 <oklopol> are you in an überschool of some sorts? 03:12:23 <ihope__> AP calculus AB, plain old high school. 03:12:33 <ihope__> 11th grade, generally taken around 16 years. 03:12:44 <oklopol> ah, you've skipped grades? 03:13:11 <oklopol> i would've done that, but i was too violent, so they didn't let me xD 03:13:15 <bsmntbombdood> ihope__: do BC instead 03:13:35 <oklopol> i guess i wasn't exactly violent, more like disturbed 03:13:44 <ihope__> I pretty much didn't start school at all until I entered high school at the 9th grade at 12. 03:13:59 <bsmntbombdood> disturbed is good! 03:14:00 <ihope__> bsmntbombdood: sounds like a big jump... 03:14:24 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: the band? 03:14:47 <bsmntbombdood> oklopol: no, the state of mind 03:15:00 <oklopol> sure, but it's dangerous to the other kids. 03:15:17 <oklopol> i have great stories from when i started school <3 03:16:16 <ihope__> What are you doing that's dangerous to others? 03:16:19 <oklopol> i was in math class today, we were learning about density functions.... 03:17:20 <oklopol> 2 hours it took the teacher to explain http://www.answers.com/density+functions?cat=technology 03:17:30 <oklopol> anyone can learn that in a minute 03:17:54 <oklopol> ihope__: this one time the boys were playing football 03:18:03 <oklopol> so, i decided they shouldn't be playing it without me. 03:18:14 <oklopol> not that they wouldn't have taken me, i didn't ask. 03:18:26 <oklopol> so, i took the ball and started walking away 03:18:44 <oklopol> and the owner of the ball asked me if i could give it back, since i kinda ruined their game 03:18:56 <oklopol> well, i naturally kicked him in the balls as hard as i could. 03:19:29 <oklopol> i was almost sent to a ...what's it called... a school for baaad kids 03:20:32 <oklopol> nowadays i'm the complete opposite 03:20:33 <pikhq> Military school? 03:20:44 <bsmntbombdood> reform school 03:21:14 <oklopol> perhaps. 03:21:47 <pikhq> ihope__: I actually did learn a good deal in AP calc. . . 03:22:04 <pikhq> Of course, that's because I went in not knowing more than the bare basics of derivatives. . . 03:22:10 <bsmntbombdood> i'm doing AP calc independently 03:22:40 * pikhq mostly read during class, and figured stuff out at home 03:23:35 <pikhq> Wasn't too bad of a strategy; got a 5 on the test. 03:24:29 <oklopol> i usually don't do anything and use my own techniques in the test 03:24:51 <oklopol> stupid, but easier! 03:26:05 <oklopol> i wonder how much harder your math is 03:26:15 <oklopol> or the other way 03:26:22 <oklopol> prolly either way, at least 03:26:48 <bsmntbombdood> check out this kickassness: abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/rampant.pdf 03:27:51 <pikhq> At my school, doing calculus as a senior is considered "ubergod" material. 03:27:55 <pikhq> I did it as a junior. 03:28:03 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: here too 03:28:37 <pikhq> It also puts me in the wonderful status of having that be a part of college application material. ;p 03:37:18 -!- ihope__ has quit (Connection timed out). 03:41:50 <oklopol> oaky, i guess i have to admit i'm pretty tired... 03:41:56 <oklopol> 'tis time for sleeps -> 03:45:20 <Sgeo> G'night 03:45:30 <oklopol> hmm... it seems i'm not the only one who hasn't gotten their parents' signature! 03:45:41 <oklopol> there's hope in the end of the light! 03:45:43 <oklopol> or was is a tunnel 03:45:49 <Sgeo> hm? 03:45:56 <oklopol> long story 03:54:29 <immibis> glass programs are allowed to be on more than one line, aren't they? 03:56:10 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure they are 03:56:46 <immibis> yes they must be - the programs in the efa are. 04:08:27 <immibis> does glass-0.12 support input? 04:11:24 <bsmntbombdood> immibis: dirty women, they don't mess around 04:11:44 <immibis> does glass-0.12 support input? 04:11:50 <immibis> as in, the I class? 04:14:35 <immibis> i repeat: does glass-0.12 support input? 04:14:45 <immibis> glass-0.7 doesn't. 04:26:06 -!- dmwit has joined. 04:26:13 -!- dmwit has left (?). 04:28:37 -!- sclv has joined. 04:30:44 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:55:51 -!- toBogE has joined. 04:56:06 <immibis> hello egobot. 04:57:41 -!- immibis has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | IRP in #irp | Don't spam the channel with EgoBot commands, /query EgoBot | Don't spam the channel with toBogE commands, /join #toboge | Don't spam the channel with bsmnt_bot commands, take him to your own channel.. 04:58:24 <immibis> how do i get it to identify with nickserv? 04:58:39 <oklopol> bsmnt_bot? 04:58:43 <immibis> no EgoBot 04:58:49 <bsmntbombdood> what 04:58:53 <immibis> i'm running EgoBot under toBogE's nick. 04:58:54 <bsmntbombdood> i thought you went to bed oklopol 04:59:00 <oklopol> i thought too... 04:59:13 <oklopol> but here i am again :O 04:59:23 <immibis> but how does egobot identify with nickserv? 04:59:29 <immibis> !raw 04:59:32 <immibis> !help 04:59:34 <toBogE> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon 04:59:36 <toBogE> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl 04:59:52 <oklopol> ah, yeah, i decided to call to school about that course thing...... yes, that's why i'm awake! 05:00:14 <immibis> i see it's got commands for the languages that didn't compile...i wonder... 05:00:16 <immibis> !rhotor 05:00:20 <toBogE> Huh? 05:00:33 <immibis> !glypho xxx 05:00:36 <toBogE> Huh? 05:00:42 <immibis> ok 05:00:53 <immibis> anyway, does anyone know how to make it identify with nickserv? 05:00:58 <oklopol> now i'll really try to sleep -> 05:01:04 <oklopol> immibis: don't you have the code? 05:01:16 <immibis> i have the code here. 05:01:20 <oklopol> well, cram it in 05:01:22 <immibis> do i need to mofidy it? 05:01:28 <immibis> s/mofidy/modify/ 05:01:33 -!- toBogE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:02:33 <oklopol> i don't know, even less i know what you're allowed to do with the source. probably you can add something to it 05:02:37 * immibis looks up toboge's password 05:02:39 <oklopol> now, sleep! -> 05:03:21 <immibis> no. you sleep. 05:03:28 <immibis> you are getting sleepy. 05:03:31 <immibis> very sleepy. 05:03:40 <immibis> when i snap my fingers, you will fall asleep. 05:03:45 * immibis snaps his fingers 05:03:54 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 05:03:55 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:06:30 -!- toBogE has joined. 05:06:54 -!- toBogE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:08:18 -!- toBogE has joined. 05:09:38 <immibis> !help 05:09:42 <toBogE> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon 05:09:43 <toBogE> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl 05:10:04 <immibis> !daemon cat +[,[.,]+] 05:10:48 <immibis> !daemon cat bf +[,[.,]+] 05:10:49 <immibis> !ps d 05:10:54 <toBogE> 1 immibis: daemon cat bf 05:10:56 <toBogE> 2 immibis: ps 05:11:33 <immibis> !daemon ctcp bf +[[-]+.,[.,]+.+++++++++.] 05:11:36 <toBogE> ERROR: ld.so: object './ckpt/libckpt.so' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored. 05:11:36 <immibis> !ctcp ACTION tests 05:11:39 <toBogE> <CTCP>ACTION tests 05:11:48 <immibis> !ctcp ACTION tests. 05:11:51 <toBogE> ACTION tests. 05:12:04 <immibis> what is ckpt? 05:12:13 <immibis> it wouldn't compile 05:18:30 <RodgerTheGreat> has anyone here ever made an interactive implementation of BASIC, ala TinyBASIC? 05:18:55 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm starting one for a game, and I was wondering if anyone had any tips or tricks that make it simpler 05:19:02 <bsmntbombdood> hrrr 05:35:08 <immibis> !bf ++++++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+[>>+<<-]+++++[>++++++++++<-]>---.>+.+++++++.+++++.<.>------------.-.++++++++++++++++++.-----------.------->>>>++++[>++++++++<-]>.<<<<<<.>++++++++++++++.+.++++.<.>------.---------.+++++++++++++++.------------------.+++.----.+++++++++++++.+++++.<.>-----------------.+++++++.+++++.<.>--.-----------.++++++++++++++++++++.-------.-----------.+++++.---.+++++++++++++. 05:35:11 <toBogE> /bin/bash /opt/netbeans/bin/launcher 05:35:27 * immibis took a while to write that, bf_txtgen doesn't work. 05:35:43 <immibis> evidently egobot was only designed to run on one computer, that one being gregorr's. 05:36:56 -!- toBogE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:40:19 <RodgerTheGreat> a shame 05:41:01 -!- toBogE has joined. 05:43:28 -!- toBogE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:43:47 -!- toBogE has joined. 05:44:10 <toBogE> hi 05:44:40 -!- toBogE has changed nick to CaptainObvious. 05:44:47 -!- CaptainObvious has changed nick to toBogE. 05:45:04 <toBogE> Drat! Immibis forgot my nickserv password! 05:49:45 <toBogE> Hi[D[DI[D'[Dm toBo[D[Dg[Ce! 05:50:20 -!- sclv has changed nick to sclv-away. 05:50:20 -!- sclv-away has changed nick to sclv. 05:50:43 -!- sclv has changed nick to sclv-away. 05:52:47 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:53:22 <GregorR> immibis: I didn't really consider portability very much, no. 05:53:39 <GregorR> immibis: It's F/OSS as a show of good faith, not a claim of portability ;) 05:54:13 <toBogE> well 05:54:38 <toBogE> i've managed to get banned on #uncyclopedia 05:54:44 <GregorR> Noice, howzat? 05:55:01 <toBogE> just for because of the half-bot half-user thing... 05:55:23 <immibis> i'm sending irc commands through toboge. 05:56:03 <immibis> exec 5<>/dev/tcp/irc.freenode.net/6667 ; ./egobot toBogE immibis esoteric 10485760 <&5 2>&5 ; cat >&5 06:03:20 <bsmntbombdood> /dev/tcp ? 06:29:46 <immibis> a feature of bash 06:30:22 <immibis> /dev/tcp/HOSTNAME/PORT will connect to the specified hostname and port, and acts like a file (well, more like a pipe, but you get the idea) 06:30:31 <immibis> also you can use /dev/udp for a udp connection. 06:52:33 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:03:19 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:19:28 -!- Arrogant has joined. 07:49:07 -!- toBogE has quit (Client Quit). 07:50:40 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:57:10 <immibis> hmm...i won't be able to code my glass steganography program after all because glass 0.7 doesn't support input and glass 0.12 doesn't download properly on this windows computer. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:19:02 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving"). 10:28:06 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:54:44 -!- ihope__ has joined. 11:55:05 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope. 12:25:56 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:41:58 -!- sclv-away has changed nick to sclv. 13:00:24 -!- jix has joined. 14:00:11 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:00:21 -!- jix has joined. 14:52:29 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:57:16 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:45:40 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 15:56:16 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:56:54 <SimonRC> hi 15:59:25 <oklopol> hi 16:00:16 * SimonRC finds the ultimate page-widener http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Along_the_River_7-119-3.jpg 16:15:30 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:19:32 <GregorR> SimonRC: Viewing that on a computer leaves something to be desired :P 16:19:37 <GregorR> Unless of course you have about twenty monitors. 16:20:36 <SimonRC> or you can scroll sideways 16:22:12 <oklopol> now where am i gonna get 18 monitors... 16:24:25 <SimonRC> out th back of the engineering building where the chuck away old kit? 16:24:31 <SimonRC> I acquired a few things there 16:46:12 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 16:48:19 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:48:22 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:57:38 -!- bsmntbom1dood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:24:55 -!- Hail_Spacecake has joined. 17:25:43 <Hail_Spacecake> has anyone created a language called Sumatra? 17:26:51 <SimonRC> Hail_Spacecake: it may take a while 17:27:00 <SimonRC> this is a quet place 17:27:03 <SimonRC> *quiet 17:28:16 <oklopol> Hail_Spacecake: search le wiki. 17:28:39 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 17:28:49 <Hail_Spacecake> huh, apparantly so 17:29:03 <Hail_Spacecake> Sumatra: A language for resource-aware mobile programs 18:03:20 <RodgerTheGreat> hi everyone 18:05:50 <bsmntbombdood> hi 18:06:36 <RodgerTheGreat> 'sup, bsmntbombdood 18:09:30 <bsmntbombdood> one of my friends is leaving to california :( 18:09:57 <RodgerTheGreat> <:/ 18:10:04 <RodgerTheGreat> sorry, dude 18:10:24 <RodgerTheGreat> and sorry for your friend, too 18:12:00 <oklopol> hey, change of ip won't make ircing less fun! 18:33:05 <lament> bsmntbombdood: think positively, now you have a friend in california! 18:35:00 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=829 18:49:47 -!- Hail_Spacecake has left (?). 18:56:41 <bsmntbombdood> heh 19:26:54 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:31:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:35:07 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:47:01 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:05:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 20:43:54 -!- ihope__ has joined. 20:44:09 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope. 21:00:48 -!- ihope__ has joined. 21:18:15 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out). 21:21:20 -!- Tritonio has joined. 21:39:54 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 21:39:55 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:46:07 -!- puzzlet has joined. 21:58:08 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:19:27 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:20:53 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:21:51 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:36:04 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:36:46 -!- Tritonio has joined. 23:04:43 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 23:06:20 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:18:45 -!- rutlov has joined. 23:26:45 -!- rutlov has left (?). 23:27:27 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope. 23:48:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 23:53:32 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 2007-09-28: 00:07:23 <bsmntbombdood> what will happen to you, johnny blade? 00:08:10 <bsmntbombdood> his only friend is a switchbladed knife 00:16:38 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 00:19:18 -!- Herr_Rob has joined. 00:20:34 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:27:57 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: ??? 00:28:00 * SimonRC goes to bed 00:45:49 -!- Robdgreat has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:49:42 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out). 00:58:48 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:59:17 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:04:24 -!- Herr_Rob has changed nick to Robdgreat. 01:33:20 <GregorR> I'm fairly sure that my NPDA interpreter achieves O(n) 01:33:49 <GregorR> Or, more accurately, O(l^k * n) where l is a constant, k is the lookahead (usually constant) and n is the string length. 01:35:20 <Sgeo> Bye all 01:36:44 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:45:07 <GregorR> Fine, nobody care! 01:45:12 <GregorR> What's #esoteric for anyway X_P 01:45:33 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: interesting 01:45:50 <RodgerTheGreat> you have to remember, though, that this is a highly asynchronous channel 01:46:03 <GregorR> Heh 01:46:07 <RodgerTheGreat> ever coded a BASIC interpreter? 01:46:11 <GregorR> Nope 01:46:22 <RodgerTheGreat> dang 01:46:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I started coding one, and I want to pick somebody's brain about it 01:46:43 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a somewhat complex language, all things considered 01:46:53 <RodgerTheGreat> easier than some, at least 01:47:30 <GregorR> The easier the language, the more complicated the implementation. 01:48:43 <bsmntbombdood> someone has to do the work 01:48:53 <RodgerTheGreat> yep 01:49:07 <RodgerTheGreat> oh well, I suppose I'll trudge onwards then 01:53:11 <RodgerTheGreat> the main thing eating at me is that I *know* there must be really simple ways to do most of this, because I've seen freaking tiny implementations in the past 01:54:50 <GregorR> Tiny != simple 01:56:14 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR == Tiny 01:56:40 * GregorR == 200lbs 02:13:15 <RodgerTheGreat> heh 02:13:28 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR = 350lbs 02:13:31 <bsmntbombdood> hrr hrr, now you're fat 02:14:16 <RodgerTheGreat> however, when we get into the realm of 4k TinyBASIC implementations, it stands to reason that the algos can be cleaned up and made into a straightforward implementation that isn't just machinecode 02:14:35 <bsmntbombdood> define basic 02:18:15 <RodgerTheGreat> you mean BASIC? 02:18:55 <RodgerTheGreat> or the english word, as in "simple"? 02:19:15 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:21:36 <GregorR> I made a video describing how I achieve O(n), but it's impossible to read *sigh* 02:21:47 <RodgerTheGreat> <:/ 02:22:13 <RodgerTheGreat> I liked your "how to implement a stack and functions with BF" video 02:22:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I think it's still floating around somewhere on my hard drive 02:23:19 <bsmntbombdood> a video? 02:23:49 <bsmntbombdood> i want to watch a video about how to implement a stack and functions with BF 02:23:56 <RodgerTheGreat> basically just gregor in vi, talking as he types 02:25:26 <GregorR> Hm, anybody want a 98MB .avi of me talking that's difficult to read? :P 02:25:28 -!- oklopol has quit (Excess Flood). 02:25:28 -!- cmeme has quit (Excess Flood). 02:25:46 <RodgerTheGreat> lol 02:25:46 -!- oklopol has joined. 02:25:49 -!- cmeme has joined. 02:25:57 <lament> oklopol = cmeme? 02:25:59 * GregorR reencodes it. 02:26:08 <bsmntbombdood> O.o 02:26:18 <GregorR> O_O 02:26:24 <bsmntbombdood> written > spoken 02:26:36 <bsmntbombdood> how can cmeme flood? 02:26:40 <bsmntbombdood> i thought it never spoke 02:26:41 <GregorR> I can't write it in a way that's useful. 02:26:52 <GregorR> I'm much better at explaining things dynamically. 02:45:50 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:00:37 -!- immibis_ has joined. 03:19:09 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:38:13 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:38:14 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 03:40:24 -!- immibis has joined. 04:11:41 <GregorR> ROFLCOPTER 04:18:40 <bsmntbombdood> LOFLMAO 04:19:07 <pikhq> I HATE BEING AWAY FROM HOME FROM 6 TO 5 04:36:51 <RodgerTheGreat> LOL WUT. 04:37:04 <immibis> WHY IS EVERYONE SHOUTING IN CAPITALS? 04:37:12 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:37:37 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:40:54 <RodgerTheGreat> I DUNNO 04:55:56 <bsmntbombdood> this album rocks 04:56:08 <immibis> don't you mean THIS ALBUM ROCKS? 04:56:31 <bsmntbombdood> Infected Mushroom - Vicious Delicious 04:57:27 <bsmntbombdood> it's like 04:57:43 <bsmntbombdood> israli psychadelic trance 05:00:00 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 05:00:48 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:04:25 <bsmntbombdood> methinks i should stay up all night 05:10:07 <Sgeo> methinks he is ANGRY at SLX's nonresponsiveness.. 05:10:49 <immibis> methinks whoever SLX is, he isn't on this channel. 05:12:21 <Sgeo> SLExchange 05:12:47 <Sgeo> I put an object for sale just this night 05:12:52 <immibis> ok 05:12:57 <Sgeo> err, yesterday EST I guess 05:13:05 <immibis> ok 05:53:07 <immibis> http://pastebin.ca/718174 05:55:11 <immibis> oops wrong link 05:55:20 <immibis> http://pastebin.ca/718178 06:03:35 <bsmntbombdood> corpora caversona 06:03:42 <immibis> ? 06:13:58 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:58:41 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 07:06:08 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 07:30:59 -!- immibis_ has quit ("BitchX-1.1-final -- just do it."). 07:45:40 <immibis> http://pastebin.ca/718231 is a sorting program in my language. 07:52:45 <immibis> oh and the interpreter is windows only. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:45:38 -!- kwertii has joined. 08:52:09 <immibis> ok, my esolang interpreter has all the features and understands all the commands i have thought of so far. 08:52:42 <immibis> ==?==*== 08:52:51 <immibis> = F 08:52:58 <immibis> =>>>>>>= 09:11:49 -!- anonfunc has joined. 09:11:53 <immibis> pity it can only process single digit numbers. 09:16:31 <immibis> can anyone think of something useful to do with single digit numbers? 09:17:21 <g4lt-sb100> make multidigit numbers ;P 09:17:33 <immibis> apart from that..... 09:18:18 <g4lt-sb100> you can play with sorting 09:18:50 <immibis> i already made a sorting program. it generates random digits and sorts them into piles, and burns them. 09:19:12 <g4lt-sb100> no carry math? 09:19:19 <immibis> no. 09:19:25 <immibis> this is a rube goldberg language. 09:19:42 <immibis> like RUBE but since i couldn't find any documentation for RUBE... 09:19:55 <g4lt-sb100> cant think of more rube goldberg than math without carrying ;P 09:20:18 <immibis> all addition and subtraction is modulo 16. 09:20:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:20:48 <g4lt-sb100> ...which is the hex version of no carry 09:20:56 <immibis> sorry i mean base 10. 09:21:04 <immibis> i used the letters for the components. 09:22:08 <g4lt-sb100> cards? 09:22:23 <immibis> not cards, conveyor belts, walls, and so on. 09:25:36 <immibis> the interpreter is buggy though 09:25:48 <immibis> for example, a 9 just got run over by a bulldozer 09:29:08 <immibis> i will have to implement more careful drivers. 09:29:46 <g4lt-sb100> yeah, bulldozewrs have to have CDLs ;P 09:29:51 <immibis> cdls? 09:29:54 <oerjan> http://catseye.tc/projects/rube/doc/rube.txt 09:30:01 <g4lt-sb100> commercial driver licenses 09:33:06 <immibis> found the problem 09:33:17 <immibis> the drivers were looking for crates that hadn't moved in the last crate 09:33:32 <immibis> if there was one, they pushed it. 09:33:36 <immibis> otherwise they ran over it. 09:33:43 <immibis> it explains why my walls collapsed, anyway... 09:34:36 * immibis wonders what he was thinking when he wrote isdigit(program[y][x+1])!=' ' 09:36:38 <immibis> ok, i've made one that prints a nine every time you type a digit. 09:38:03 <immibis> the interpreter is cool - it shows the current state of the machine 09:43:58 * immibis seems to have named his nine-printer "digital-root.rocb". D'oh! 09:45:08 <immibis> any other ideas apart from multi digit math? 09:46:44 -!- sp3tt has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:47:22 -!- sp3tt has joined. 09:56:44 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 09:58:53 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC. Give a man ). 10:07:16 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:29:14 -!- anonfunc has quit. 10:30:17 -!- anonfunc has joined. 10:35:17 -!- Arrogant has joined. 11:57:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 12:17:28 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving"). 12:38:21 -!- kwertii has quit. 12:43:10 -!- jix has joined. 12:48:44 -!- anonfunc has quit. 13:18:44 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:57:25 -!- fizzie has joined. 15:38:33 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:47:59 -!- sclv has quit. 15:50:39 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:26:17 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:34:05 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 17:11:59 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:15:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 17:26:25 -!- bsmntbom1dood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:28:22 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 17:29:08 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:40:49 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 18:51:28 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:25:17 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 19:36:06 -!- bsmntbom1dood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:47:16 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:06:35 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:14:38 -!- RedDak has joined. 20:22:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:31:45 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:34:22 -!- oklopol has joined. 22:03:36 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:03:54 -!- ihope__ has joined. 22:04:19 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope. 22:34:57 -!- kwertii has joined. 23:16:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2007-09-29: 00:41:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:46:34 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 00:46:44 -!- jix has joined. 00:50:14 -!- immibis has joined. 00:50:16 <immibis> hi 00:54:07 <oklopol> i 00:54:30 <oklopol> well that was rather selfish, sorry 00:54:32 <oklopol> *hi 00:54:36 <immibis> ok 00:59:33 <ihope> What was rather selfish? 00:59:58 <immibis> saying "I" 01:00:19 <ihope> Ah. 01:00:29 <ihope> I sort of say it every time I say anything. 01:00:34 -!- ihope has changed nick to uhope. 01:00:40 <uhope> There, now I'm completely selfless. 01:00:41 <immibis> lol 01:00:43 -!- uhope has changed nick to ihope. 01:01:13 -!- immibis has changed nick to ImmIbIs. 01:01:13 -!- ImmIbIs has changed nick to xxx. 01:01:19 <xxx> oops 01:01:41 -!- xxx has changed nick to ImmIbIs. 01:02:18 <ImmIbIs> I say it 3 times when I say anything, and 3 times additionally when I say this particular sentence. 01:03:06 <ihope> =-= immibis is now known as xxx 01:03:08 <ihope> =-= ImmIbIs is now known as xxx 01:03:13 <ihope> How'd you manage that? 01:03:20 <ImmIbIs> what? 01:03:48 <ihope> You changed nicks to xxx, then you changed nicks from something else to the one you already had. 01:03:49 <ImmIbIs> i changed to xxx because i thought i couldn't change just my capitalization, i thought i had to change my actual nick. 01:03:56 <ImmIbIs> lag i guess 01:08:15 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 01:10:21 <ImmIbIs> i had to retrain some workers just now - they don't like packing N things into 0 boxes. 01:12:14 <ihope> I take it N is not 0. 01:12:15 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 01:12:31 <ImmIbIs> they still don't like packing 0 things into 0 boxes. 01:12:50 <ImmIbIs> so i trained them to throw the things away if they get frustrated. 01:13:46 <ihope> 0 nPr N is quite often 0. 01:14:01 <ImmIbIs> no, N divided by 0. 01:14:34 <ihope> That too. 01:15:24 <ImmIbIs> dividing a crate by another crate with 0 in it? Throw them both out of a twentieth-story window. Problem solved. 01:16:05 <ihope> Reminds me of the guy who went trick-or-treating dressed as the 14th century, for obvious reasons. 01:16:13 <ImmIbIs> ? 01:16:27 <ihope> (Though said guy was a fictional character.) 01:16:35 -!- ImmIbIs has changed nick to immibis. 01:17:20 <ihope> In the same vein, there was that non-fictional person who went trick-or-treating dressed as a bathroom. 01:17:27 <immibis> why? 01:17:48 <ihope> Why did she do that? 01:18:17 <ihope> Well, I think she and her mother were once out shopping for toilet seats, and her mother said she should wear one. 01:18:24 <immibis> why? 01:18:35 <ihope> Because it would be funny? 01:20:31 <oklopol> you know what's funny? nothing. 01:25:09 <kwertii> Murder is no laughing matter. Unless it's committed by a clown. 01:25:37 <GregorR> Or to a clown. 01:28:04 <oklopol> hehe, clown xD 01:35:20 <ihope> Lol, clown. 02:53:19 <immibis> is there anything useful I could do with multi-digit numbers, that isn't trivial to write but not complicated either? 02:53:25 <immibis> apart from calculating a digital root. 02:55:47 <ihope> Addition. 02:55:58 <ihope> With carry, yes. 02:56:34 <immibis> that would be trivial now i've added multi-digit support, except there is NO way to seperate two inputs. 02:56:51 <ihope> Sounds un-Turing-complete. 02:57:03 <immibis> it's not intended to be turing-complete 02:57:11 <immibis> it's intended to be interesting to write programs in. 02:57:34 <immibis> maybe i could do the fibonacci sequence '... using either recursion or iteration." 02:57:35 <immibis> oops 02:57:47 <immibis> maybe i could do the fibonacci sequence except the esolangs page says "... using either recursion or iteration.". 03:00:57 <immibis> there is no way to seperate two inputs because you can only input numbers. you can, however, add the input to a constant. 03:03:01 <ihope> You couldn't input a digit of one, a digit of the other, ad nauseam? 03:03:29 <immibis> it might...work except there is no end of input either. 03:03:38 <immibis> it's only for windows, and only for console input. 03:03:49 <immibis> as in, don't redirect it or it won't work. 03:08:24 <ihope> What is it, anyway? 03:08:34 <immibis> my version of RUBE 03:09:09 <immibis> because i couldn't find any documentation for RUBE, or an interpreter (well, i probably could have, but I didn't actually look for either of them) so i made my own language 03:09:23 <immibis> inspired by RUBICON, a game inspired by RUBE, a language inspired by Rube Goldberg. 03:10:33 <immibis> oh and the program automatically ends when there is no data, and there are no inputs. 03:12:57 <ihope> Does your language have a wiki page? 03:13:03 <immibis> no 03:13:11 <immibis> because i created it yesterday. 03:13:28 <immibis> the language not the wiki page 03:13:28 <ihope> I bet I can create a page for my language before you can create one for yours! :-P 03:13:38 <immibis> what is your language 03:14:39 <ihope> I'll call it Misnomer. 03:15:15 <ihope> "Its name is a misnomer in that it is not." 03:48:19 <RodgerTheGreat> hey everyone 03:54:14 <bsmntbombdood> hi 03:55:18 <RodgerTheGreat> hi, bsmntbombdood 03:55:24 <RodgerTheGreat> what are you up to? 03:57:59 <bsmntbombdood> dunno 04:17:58 -!- ihope has quit ("http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.08.09"). 04:36:32 -!- kwertii has quit (Client Quit). 04:41:38 * immibis waits patiently 04:41:48 * immibis waits patiently for someone to ask him what he's waiting for 04:41:56 <RodgerTheGreat> what are you waiting for? 04:42:36 * immibis was waiting patiently for someone to ask him what he was waiting for. 04:42:36 <immibis> 12:47:25 * ihope waits patiently 04:42:36 <immibis> 12:48:55 * ihope waits patiently for someone to ask what he's waiting for 04:42:45 <immibis> 12:49:54 * RodgerTheGreat considers asking ihope what he's waiting for. 04:42:55 * immibis wonders why he read a year-old irc log 04:43:20 <RodgerTheGreat> so you were hoping you could recreate the past, eh? 04:43:26 <immibis> no 04:43:33 <RodgerTheGreat> turns out I've become steadily less interesting over the year 04:43:34 * immibis is waiting for something to happen 04:44:08 * immibis tells RodgerTheGreat what he's actually waiting for - for something to happen. 04:44:14 <RodgerTheGreat> ah 04:44:32 * RodgerTheGreat hands immibis an apple 04:44:38 <RodgerTheGreat> imagine you're holding it in your hand 04:44:46 <RodgerTheGreat> what do you want to do with the apple? 04:44:49 <immibis> i saw you talking about this experiment last night 04:44:57 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, oh well 04:44:58 <immibis> so i'm not going to say what you expect the outcome to be... 04:45:02 <immibis> i want to........ 04:45:05 <immibis> ......... 04:45:07 <immibis> .......... 04:45:12 <immibis> ................... 04:45:15 <immibis> .......... 04:45:17 <immibis> . 04:45:23 <RodgerTheGreat> .... 04:45:25 <immibis> .... 04:45:36 <immibis> cut it up and put it in a blender. 04:46:23 <RodgerTheGreat> the test is very, very pointless in this case because not only do you lack an apple in your hand but you're also aware of the experiment enough to let it skew your results 04:46:32 <immibis> yes. 04:50:07 * immibis has somehow managed to create a ROCB factorial calculator. 04:50:48 <immibis> s/factorial/fibonacci/ 04:51:04 <immibis> 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 1597 2584 4181 6765 10946 17711 28657 46368 9489 55857 65346 55667 55477 45608 35549 15621 51170 1255 52425 53680 40569 28713 3746 32459 36205 3128 39333 42461 16258 58719 9441 2624 12065 14689 26754 41443 2661 44104 46765 25333 6562 31895 38457 4816 43273 48089 25826 8379 34205 42584 11253 53837 65090 53391 52945 40800 28209 3473 31682 35155 1301 36456 37757 8677 46434 55111 36009 25584 04:51:05 <RodgerTheGreat> ROCB? 04:51:16 <immibis> RubE On Conveyor Belts 04:51:30 <immibis> a bit of a random name, i admit. 04:52:59 <RodgerTheGreat> interesting 04:53:37 <immibis> there are no rails in the language. Otherwise it might be called RubE On Rails. 04:54:12 <RodgerTheGreat> "and... WHOOPS, it works!" 04:54:21 <immibis> whoops? 04:55:04 <RodgerTheGreat> from the Ruby On Rails screencasts 04:55:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I was referencing the tremendously irritating speech mannerisms of the narrator for the screencasts 04:55:30 <immibis> ok, i know nothing about ruby on rails apart from the name - i don't even know what it is. 04:55:37 <immibis> ok 04:56:00 <RodgerTheGreat> immibis: it is pure, grade-A, reverse-osmosis purified shit. 04:56:12 <immibis> ok then. 04:56:50 <RodgerTheGreat> essentially it's PHP and MySQL for impatient people and/or morons built on the ugliest mainstream language on the planet 04:56:58 <immibis> ok 04:57:21 <RodgerTheGreat> I take it as proof of the theory that bad ideas can breed to create new, more powerfully bad ideas. 04:57:27 <immibis> ? 04:57:34 <immibis> can good ideas do that? 04:57:48 <RodgerTheGreat> there's less evidence to support it working for good ideas 04:57:56 <RodgerTheGreat> perhaps the effect isn't as strong 04:59:43 <RodgerTheGreat> 'night everyone 04:59:47 <immibis> goodnight 05:15:41 <immibis> does anyone run windows and want a ROCB interpreter? 05:33:19 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:33:23 <bsmntbombdood> no one runs windows 05:33:28 <immibis> i do. 05:33:34 <immibis> 95% of people with computers do. 05:33:54 -!- GregorR_ has joined. 05:34:02 -!- GregorR_ has changed nick to GregorR. 05:43:43 -!- maslem has joined. 05:43:53 <maslem> hi to everybody! 05:44:03 -!- immibis has changed nick to everybody. 05:44:05 <everybody> hi to maslem 05:44:09 -!- everybody has changed nick to immibis. 06:00:24 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:15:22 -!- GregorR has joined. 06:17:57 -!- maslem has quit ("Leaving"). 06:43:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 06:46:36 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Client Quit). 06:51:01 * pikhq want sleep, but me no want sleep 06:51:37 <pikhq> immibis: You don't *run* Windows, you fight it. 06:51:39 <pikhq> :p 06:54:44 * immibis thinks pikhq should avoid talking about others in the first person. 07:09:00 <bsmntbombdood> nekkid 07:33:28 <immibis> ?\ 07:33:30 <immibis> ? 07:35:53 <bsmntbombdood> everything is better nekkid 07:36:00 <immibis> nekkid? 07:37:13 <bsmntbombdood> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nekkid 07:37:25 <bsmntbombdood> use wikimedia projects before asking stupid questions 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:08:45 <immibis> am i permitted to make a wiki page for my language? 08:37:27 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 09:05:34 <g4lt-sb100> no 09:05:41 <immibis> ok 09:07:10 <g4lt-sb100> turns out that you can't actually make wiki articles about the things that you are most familiar with, as hey don't like first person articles 09:07:19 <immibis> ok 09:07:47 <immibis> [14:12] <ihope> I bet I can create a page for my language before you can create one for yours! 09:08:06 <immibis> then why did ihope say that? 09:09:30 <g4lt-sb100> ask ihope why, but presumably it's because rules don't mean much to ihope 09:15:17 -!- g4lt-sb100 has changed nick to g4lt-mordant. 09:16:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:25:41 <oerjan> _or_ it could be because ihope means the esolangs wiki, not wikipedia. 09:27:21 <immibis> *i* meant the esolangs wiki too. 09:28:00 <oerjan> in which case you are welcome to make a page on your language. 09:28:06 <immibis> ok 09:29:59 <immibis> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ruby_On_Conveyor_Belts 09:30:03 <immibis> oops 09:30:04 <immibis> typo 09:30:20 <immibis> that should be "RubE on conveyor belts". How do I change an article's name? 09:30:29 <oerjan> move 09:31:56 <immibis> ok, done 09:32:06 <immibis> http://esolangs.org/wiki/RubE_On_Conveyor_Belts 09:48:25 <immibis> to whoever cares: should it be under the category "brainfuck derivatives" if you only use brainfuck for part of the program, and that part is optional? 10:03:36 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 10:14:43 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC. Pull the pi). 10:15:01 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:00:20 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lurch, er, lunch"). 12:04:01 -!- bebers has joined. 12:04:43 <bebers> http://tubeimage.com/viewer.php?file=x7o3ydsiwmvc6pnvqyd3.jpg 13:06:43 -!- jix has joined. 13:14:28 -!- bebers has left (?). 15:04:29 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 15:15:24 -!- bsmntbom1dood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:39:24 -!- fizzie has quit ("..."). 17:10:38 -!- g4lt-sb100 has joined. 17:15:27 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 17:26:07 -!- g4lt-mordant has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:26:16 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:18:19 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 18:19:34 <oklopol> oerjan: be highlighted through the magic of logs. 18:20:04 <RodgerTheGreat> heh 18:21:26 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 18:21:27 <CakeProphet> :) 18:37:34 -!- ihope has joined. 18:52:09 -!- pina has joined. 18:53:06 <pina> hi 18:53:16 <RodgerTheGreat> hello, pina 18:53:18 <pina> anyone been following up with obfuscated C contests? 18:53:40 <RodgerTheGreat> not closely, but they always seem pretty interesting 18:54:04 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't think my C-fu is strong enough to really create something horrifying like those guys do 18:57:11 <pina> ah 18:57:18 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.lewdart.com/toons/pic97.jpg 18:57:21 <bsmntbombdood> the outrage! 18:57:26 <bsmntbombdood> err...wrong channel 18:57:53 <RodgerTheGreat> interesting 18:58:14 <bsmntbombdood> and nsfw 18:58:15 <RodgerTheGreat> at least it's... uh... fairly well drawn, from a purely artistic point of view 19:07:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:07:44 <pina> I've never really used C.. patches to the kernel and all, but I've never written anything from the ground up.. the code in that contest always stretches the neurons.. 19:08:43 <RodgerTheGreat> most of the time, it's a program that does something really neat (with a non-obvious algorithm), clearly optimized quite a bit to make it small, and THEN heavily obfuscated 19:08:52 <bsmntbombdood> we should have an #esoteric entry this year 19:08:57 <RodgerTheGreat> IOCC entries have many layers of brilliance 19:09:04 <RodgerTheGreat> like, between all of us? 19:09:11 <bsmntbombdood> yeah 19:09:15 <RodgerTheGreat> a collaborative IOCC entry... are those allowed? 19:10:03 <RodgerTheGreat> Well, it'd *have* to be an interpreter or a compiler for something 19:11:00 <RodgerTheGreat> Oooh... we could try to fit interpreters for as many languages as possible into the 4k limit- it'd be like the opposite of a polyglot! 19:11:51 <bsmntbombdood> brainfuck and unlambda 19:12:22 <bsmntbombdood> the more shared code the better 19:13:18 <oerjan> + befunge if it fits? 19:13:38 <RodgerTheGreat> throw in a bunch of bf extensions that don't overlap instructions 19:13:47 <oerjan> oklopol: huh? 19:13:57 <RodgerTheGreat> like Doublefuck and the multithreaded version, for example 19:14:13 <bsmntbombdood> i never looked at befunge 19:15:06 <bsmntbombdood> it might be better if it was a compiler, compiling to obfusicated C 19:15:28 <RodgerTheGreat> haha 19:15:33 <RodgerTheGreat> bloody perfect 19:16:26 <oerjan> unfortunately don't most compilers to C make things obfuscated anyway? I've heard scary things about ghc... 19:16:45 -!- Tritonio has joined. 19:17:05 * RodgerTheGreat shudders 19:17:18 <RodgerTheGreat> don't worry, Tritonio- it's not about you 19:17:26 <RodgerTheGreat> (or is it?) 19:19:59 <Tritonio> what's not about me? 19:20:27 <RodgerTheGreat> everything. nothing. 19:20:32 <Tritonio> oh i see 19:34:05 <bsmntbombdood> damn >_< 19:34:13 <bsmntbombdood> i don't think my camera can do what i want it to 19:34:29 <RodgerTheGreat> are you trying to get it to make you a sandwich or something? 19:35:20 <bsmntbombdood> no, i just want it to take a picture every 3 seconds, without holding down the shutter 19:35:29 -!- pina has left (?). 19:36:20 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: sounds like microcontroller time 19:36:44 <bsmntbombdood> more like cameras need to be hackable 19:39:16 <RodgerTheGreat> I suppose 19:39:45 <RodgerTheGreat> it'll get better when someone finally decides to make an embedded OS that runs on multiple devices like that 19:47:55 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:03:34 -!- CakeProphet_ has joined. 20:06:34 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:18:41 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:13:54 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: so do we know wether or not "team" entries to the IOCC are permitted? 21:16:15 <bsmntbombdood> i see nothing about it in the rules 21:16:24 <RodgerTheGreat> sweet 21:16:37 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 21:18:34 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:57:28 -!- ihope_ has joined. 22:15:03 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:47:56 <bsmntbombdood> so, compiler or interpreter? 22:56:08 <pikhq> For what? 22:56:54 <pikhq> Ah. 22:56:57 <pikhq> Yes. 23:11:25 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 23:22:45 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:24:41 -!- kwertii has joined. 23:27:05 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 23:37:25 <bsmntbombdood> i mean, which should we do? 23:41:07 <RodgerTheGreat> interpreter might let us support more languages 23:41:15 <RodgerTheGreat> which would be cooler 23:42:09 <oklopol> would the actual program be an interpreter, or would interpreters just be the main method of obfuscation? 23:45:32 <bsmntbombdood> what do you mean? 23:47:43 -!- immibis has joined. 23:47:54 <pikhq> Both. 23:48:07 <pikhq> I want an interprecompiler. 23:48:13 <pikhq> :p 23:48:44 <immibis> what's an interprecompiler? 23:48:53 <bsmntbombdood> i dunno, but it sounds awesome 23:48:53 <pikhq> It compiles and interprets. 23:49:00 <pikhq> w00ts. 23:49:37 <pikhq> Perhaps compile to some sort of bytecode, and allow it to either output a C file with an interpreter function and the bytecode, or just interpret the bytecode? 23:49:50 <pikhq> Perhaps a bit harder to do in 4k. . . 23:50:06 <bsmntbombdood> that would make sense 23:50:45 <pikhq> If we didn't have to worry about code size, we could write the compilation routines in bytecode. 23:52:34 -!- immibis has left (?). 23:52:41 -!- immibis has joined. 23:53:45 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: is its external behaviour that of an interpreter's? 23:54:11 <bsmntbombdood> maybe 23:54:18 <oklopol> or does it do interpreter stuff internally as a means of obfuscation 23:54:24 <bsmntbombdood> it will either be that, or a compiler 23:54:25 <oklopol> prolly both 23:54:28 <oklopol> hmm 23:54:31 <oklopol> compiler to what? 23:54:33 <bsmntbombdood> that's what oklopol's been talking about 23:54:36 <bsmntbombdood> er, pikhq 23:54:45 <bsmntbombdood> C, probably 23:54:51 <oklopol> heh, i didn't read the 5 lines of logs yet ;) 23:56:35 <oklopol> immibis: a word-play for something that is both an INTERPREter and a COMPILER 23:56:49 <oklopol> (yes, i now reached row 4) 23:59:25 <RodgerTheGreat> the program should be a compiler that, when run through itself, generates a C file that can be compiled into something interesting 23:59:29 <RodgerTheGreat> like a BF interpreter 2007-09-30: 00:00:11 <RodgerTheGreat> I also suggest that "compilerpreter" > "interprecompiler" 00:02:35 <bsmntbombdood> inter-pre-compiler 00:03:16 <immibis> so it's not an early compiler that inter-connects with something else? 00:04:53 <oerjan> icnotmepriplreerter, hope this helps 00:24:34 -!- edwardk has joined. 00:38:45 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:44:52 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 00:45:03 -!- jix has joined. 01:29:05 -!- Tritonio_ has quit ("Bye..."). 01:33:59 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:36:24 -!- CakeProphet_ has changed nick to CakeProphet. 01:38:14 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 01:49:04 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined. 02:16:12 -!- edwardk has left (?). 02:43:10 -!- kwertii has quit (Client Quit). 03:34:03 <bsmntbombdood> i'm making another hat/mask 03:34:05 <bsmntbombdood> http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/hatmask.jpg 03:34:08 <bsmntbombdood> any suggestions? 03:38:34 <RodgerTheGreat> hm 03:38:52 <RodgerTheGreat> what is the goal of a hat/mask? 03:39:09 <bsmntbombdood> general weirdness 03:39:16 <RodgerTheGreat> add fake fur. 03:39:31 <RodgerTheGreat> in a lurid color, like neon purple 03:39:48 <bsmntbombdood> don't have any 03:40:13 <RodgerTheGreat> or maybe draw elaborate paisley designs and patterns of dots on it with a permanent marker 03:41:29 <bsmntbombdood> i can't draw worth anything, either 03:43:22 <RodgerTheGreat> hm 03:44:15 <RodgerTheGreat> glitter? 03:45:47 <bsmntbombdood> hmm 03:46:36 <RodgerTheGreat> what *do* you have? 03:47:31 <ihope_> Hat/mask, hmm... 03:48:03 <ihope_> You don't have access to professional mask-making equipment and a professional mask-maker, do you? 03:48:22 <bsmntbombdood> um...no 03:48:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I doubt he can do mission impossible 3 style stuff 03:48:37 <bsmntbombdood> there's professional mask-making equpiment? 03:49:14 <RodgerTheGreat> dude, you should know now there's professional equipment for *anything* 03:59:40 <ihope_> Yup, professional mask-making equipment. 04:00:00 <ihope_> You can't make a professional mask out of paper and scissors. 04:00:37 <RodgerTheGreat> that's it! ADD SCISSORS! 04:00:51 <RodgerTheGreat> they'll be like fearsome horns 04:02:10 -!- immibis_ has joined. 04:07:11 <bsmntbombdood> heh 04:10:32 * immibis_ wonders what bsmntbombdood just said 'heh' to 04:15:42 -!- immibis_ has quit ("BitchX-1.1-final -- just do it."). 04:20:10 -!- ihope_ has quit (Connection timed out). 04:20:45 <bsmntbombdood> ooh! 04:20:51 <bsmntbombdood> i should wear my fencing mask! 04:21:07 <RodgerTheGreat> that seems like a bit of a copout 04:21:14 <RodgerTheGreat> unless you add something outrageous 04:21:28 <bsmntbombdood> i suppose 04:22:36 <RodgerTheGreat> you could probably use cardboard and a fencing mask to make yourself look like cobra commander if you added a snappy uniform 04:23:04 <bsmntbombdood> cobra commander? 04:23:27 <RodgerTheGreat> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Cobra_commander.jpg 04:23:43 <RodgerTheGreat> clearly, you did not watch crappy 80s cartoons 04:23:49 <bsmntbombdood> his gloves pwn 04:24:02 <RodgerTheGreat> indeed 04:24:19 <RodgerTheGreat> he's a pretty dapper all around villain 04:25:09 <bsmntbombdood> i was thinking about making some shorts out of brown paper bags + duck tape 04:26:41 <RodgerTheGreat> a different outfit from the wiki article: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/76/TF-G2_OldSnake.jpg 04:26:52 <RodgerTheGreat> I must advise you: 04:27:14 <RodgerTheGreat> you can make many kinds of clothing out of cardboard or paper, but pants should not be self-fabricated 04:27:45 <RodgerTheGreat> there are many potential pitfalls of making your own pants without the requisite skills 04:27:59 <bsmntbombdood> disintegration? 04:32:55 <RodgerTheGreat> indeed 04:32:59 <RodgerTheGreat> among other problems 04:33:15 <bsmntbombdood> like what? 04:33:25 <bsmntbombdood> i'd be sure to wear something at least semi-modest underneath 04:34:57 <RodgerTheGreat> chafing 04:42:06 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:07:29 <bsmntbombdood> i tried to make some 05:07:32 <bsmntbombdood> failed miserably 06:02:59 -!- SEO_DUDE38 has joined. 06:11:19 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:08:56 <oklopol> i've always wanted to make my own clothes 08:09:10 <oklopol> preferable something like a poncho 08:12:20 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:52:03 <lament> i would make clothes, but i don't want to look like a bum. 08:56:36 <oklopol> why? 08:56:41 <oklopol> bums are cool 08:57:38 <oklopol> i'm getting more and more bohemic by the day, last night i forgot to put shoes on when i went to the shop in the night 08:57:47 <oklopol> i think that's a good thing. 08:58:25 <lament> does your girlfriend think it's a good thing? 08:59:08 <oklopol> i try to act normal with her 08:59:18 <oklopol> well, at least a bit 09:04:02 <oklopol> whut, i read you were immibis xD 09:04:11 <oklopol> now realized it's lament 09:04:20 <oklopol> well, the nicks are almost identical. 09:04:42 <oklopol> (also getting stupider) 09:04:51 <lament> practically the same. 09:05:55 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:06:01 <oklopol> also bsmntbombdood and RodgerTheGreat, i don't even know what the difference between the nicks is, really, just try to guess from what they say 09:06:20 <oklopol> or perhaps it's the fact i'm tired as hell and my eyes won't open 09:29:53 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 10:32:15 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:54:49 -!- jix has joined. 10:55:15 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:55:42 -!- jix has joined. 10:58:07 -!- Tritonio has joined. 11:00:38 <oerjan> <oklopol> well, the nicks are almost identical. 11:01:34 <oerjan> someone is in need of an eye test? 11:03:45 <oklopol> :P 11:03:54 <oklopol> i scored 100% in the test 11:03:59 <oklopol> *the* test. 11:04:05 <oklopol> you know the one i mean. 11:04:35 <oklopol> read all cyanide and happiness's, what to do know... 11:04:41 <oklopol> perhaps foods -> 11:05:06 <oerjan> i stopped reading that - too much cyanide and too little happiness 11:05:36 <oerjan> it got too sick for me, believe it or not 11:05:47 <oklopol> you should see mine ;) 11:06:11 <oerjan> despite the fact i read all the archives last autumn 11:06:26 <oklopol> heh 11:06:34 <oklopol> i read all of them this morning 11:06:43 <oklopol> 4 hours of solid fun 11:07:52 * oerjan is not sure what *the* test is. 11:08:02 <oerjan> school? 11:08:22 <oerjan> hm, but it is autumn 11:08:32 <oklopol> well, my point was you prolly don't know what test we use, but i then realized you actually probably do. 11:09:02 <oklopol> the one with all the e's 11:09:46 <oerjan> Extended European Education Experience Emulator Evidence Extractor? 11:10:55 <oklopol> almost, but rotate those E's a little. 11:12:00 * oerjan actually has no idea 11:12:18 <oerjan> i just made that up on the assumption it was some EU thing 11:13:06 <oerjan> (which might very well be used in Norway too, but not when i was in school) 11:17:23 <oklopol> okay 11:17:28 <oklopol> so there's a board, right 11:17:34 <oklopol> you stay at about 5 meters from it 11:17:37 <oklopol> and look at it 11:17:42 <oklopol> now the board is filled with e's 11:17:52 <oklopol> and you're supposed to tell at which angle they're in 11:17:59 <oklopol> W E M 3 11:18:03 <oklopol> are the options 11:18:20 <oklopol> (i seem to be quick @ ascii rotation :|) 11:19:52 <oerjan> wait a minute, are you saying you actually _are_ talking about a vision test? :D 11:20:15 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 11:21:35 <oerjan> ok that makes sense. 11:22:19 <oklopol> :D 11:23:11 <oerjan> i thought you had aced an important test at school or something 11:23:24 <oerjan> although having good vision is, of course, important 11:23:59 <oklopol> well my screen is fairly close to my eyes, and i can always get closer if necessary ;) 11:24:18 <oklopol> it was for the army, which i think i'll pass anyway, so... 11:24:22 <oerjan> until one day your nose gets in the way 11:24:50 <oklopol> i have a friend with a clear vision of 30 centimeters 11:24:53 <oklopol> without lying 11:25:16 <oklopol> recognizes people by the color of clothes they wear 11:25:51 * oerjan imagines you switching clothes just to confuse him 11:26:45 <oklopol> 1. i can't wear anything but black 2. he's very good at disguising the fact he doesn't recognize someone 11:27:34 <oklopol> i remember being with him at... this place, well anyway, someone comes, asks him about his army time, they talk about 5 min, and really seem to know each other pretty well 11:27:42 <oklopol> so after the guy leaves, i ask who he was 11:27:44 <oklopol> "no idea" 11:27:48 -!- ihope_ has joined. 11:27:49 <oklopol> "couldn't see him" 11:28:01 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope. 11:30:28 <oerjan> pattern matching, generally 11:30:39 <oerjan> Wong Chan-Nel strikes again 11:31:15 <oklopol> although that might apply to the seeing problem too. 11:31:34 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:31:41 <oerjan> why indeed 11:32:31 <oklopol> challenge: say everything sing /amsg and make 100% sense in every channel. 11:35:13 <oerjan> 12:33 No help for amsg 11:35:43 <oerjan> wisely left out of irssi, i take 11:40:12 <oklopol> prolly, although you can still do raw messages, and i recall it's part of the rfc :| 12:00:22 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:01:12 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:01:25 -!- Tritonio has joined. 12:01:26 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:34:58 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 12:35:45 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:46:49 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 12:46:59 -!- jix has joined. 13:32:42 -!- oerjan has quit ("Dinner"). 13:44:40 -!- Figs has joined. 13:44:53 <Figs> `ello 13:45:05 <Figs> are you guys familiar with the Voynich manuscript? 13:45:59 <Figs> http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=22 13:46:04 <Figs> it's pretty damned interesting :P 13:51:23 <oklopol> yep 13:51:25 <oklopol> was familiar 13:51:29 <oklopol> !! 13:53:14 <Figs> :P 14:53:32 <oklopol> Figs: rate my etydes http://vjn.fi/oklopol/music/etydes/ 14:54:01 <Figs> what is a gp4? 14:54:04 <oklopol> ah, sorry 14:54:09 <oklopol> guitar pro files 14:54:14 <Figs> oh 14:54:19 * Figs doesn't have Guitar Pro 14:54:23 <Figs> :( 14:54:23 <oklopol> piano etydes though :) 14:54:36 <Figs> do you have midis? 14:54:52 <oklopol> i could convert i guess 14:56:43 <oklopol> done 14:56:52 <oklopol> had to convert each separately 14:56:54 <Figs> yay! :D 14:56:57 <Figs> ouch 14:57:01 <Figs> no batch magic? 14:57:08 <oklopol> hmm... D004 shouldn't be there 14:59:46 <oklopol> the Axxx ones aren't all that entertaining at least ;) 14:59:59 <Figs> :P 15:00:07 <Figs> my headphones are screwing up 15:00:08 <oklopol> i'm teaching a friend to play the piano over messenger... 15:00:14 <Figs> battery is dead 15:00:19 <Figs> hang on 15:01:13 <oklopol> even converted to mids that is a bit off-beat, guitar pro does that for some reason 15:02:04 <oklopol> i haven't learned any of the D ones, except 4 of course 15:02:25 <Figs> ? 15:02:41 <oklopol> there's 3 categories, A, B and D 15:02:55 <Figs> no, I mean why 4 :P 15:03:00 <oklopol> coz it's trivial 15:03:13 <Figs> O_o 15:03:18 <Figs> it doesn't sound trivial :P 15:03:38 <oklopol> heh, well it is, because it's so short: ) 15:03:44 <Figs> :P 15:04:01 <oklopol> it won't be once i complete it 15:04:10 <Figs> why isn't there a C? 15:04:23 <oklopol> because i haven't made anything that i'd categorize as it 15:04:26 <oklopol> though i'm going to. 15:04:26 <Figs> oh :P 15:04:47 <oklopol> C is a bit harder than B, but it's main idea is for the etydes to be a bit longer 15:05:18 <oklopol> i could just call them songs, though, etyde has a bad sound to it.. 15:05:47 <oklopol> etydes are inferior to songs 15:06:38 <oklopol> i was thinking about making a book called 1001 etydes, possibly generating them all ;) 15:06:40 <Figs> I thought the term was Etude? 15:06:43 <oklopol> uh 15:06:46 <oklopol> might be, sorry 15:06:49 <Figs> or is etyde different? 15:07:09 <oklopol> etude is correct 15:07:18 <oklopol> etyde is nothing, most likely 15:07:29 <Figs> ok 15:07:43 <oklopol> i derived etyde from finnish, is my reason 15:09:13 <Figs> ah 15:11:19 <Figs> hmm 15:11:27 <Figs> I don't know how to evaluate etudes. 15:11:51 <oklopol> ....evaluate? :) 15:12:01 <oklopol> etudes are pieces made for training techniques. 15:12:05 <Figs> "[06:52:59] oklopol: Figs: rate my etydes " 15:12:09 <oklopol> ah :) 15:12:51 <Figs> I don't think I could play most of these :) 15:13:09 <Figs> I could probably do the A things 15:13:28 <oklopol> i can do the B ones at 2x speed, i think 15:13:29 <Figs> maybe some of the B 15:13:32 <oklopol> at least the first one 15:13:45 <Figs> B001 doesn't sound hard 15:14:28 <Figs> I don't know about B002 though 15:14:32 <oklopol> also, i can do a nice ....partial chord (?) in the end with 1.5x the 3x speed 15:14:51 <Figs> "partial chord (?)"? 15:15:20 <oklopol> i'll add mp3's of me playing those once i get something to record with... 15:16:03 <oklopol> partial chord... 15:16:04 <oklopol> emm 15:16:10 <oklopol> so you have a chord, right 15:16:20 <oklopol> so you play the notes in a sequence 15:16:44 <oklopol> like a1 c1 e1 a2 c2 e2 a3 e2 c2 a2 e1 c1 a1 15:17:03 <Figs> oh 15:17:07 <Figs> like an arpeggio? 15:17:13 <oklopol> ah, thanks 15:17:19 <Figs> kk 15:17:25 <oklopol> i can do that arpeggio in about a second 15:18:43 <oklopol> i think i'm about 2x faster than you in bragging 15:18:57 <oklopol> now time to eat something, i guess -> 15:19:00 <Figs> :P 15:19:12 <Figs> I don't know what you mean by 2x faster than me in bragging 15:19:47 <oklopol> that i like to brag, it seems 15:19:50 <oklopol> now gone! -> 15:19:51 <Figs> oh :P 15:20:08 * Figs uh, brags about procrastinating... 15:20:17 <Figs> I've been up all night two nights in a row now! 15:20:24 <Figs> putting off working... 15:20:25 <oklopol> hehe 15:20:35 <Figs> isn't that awful? :P 15:21:37 <oklopol> REALLY -> 15:21:47 <Figs> :p 15:21:54 <Figs> oklopol puts off eating! 15:22:04 <Figs> *snatches breakfast....* 15:25:53 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:37:58 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:43:18 -!- joxy has joined. 16:09:59 <ihope> Ello! 16:10:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 16:10:44 <RodgerTheGreat> !ollE 16:12:58 <ihope> Huh? 16:13:06 <ihope> /nick EgoBot 16:14:20 <RodgerTheGreat> ? 16:16:33 <ihope> Meh. 16:21:04 -!- bsmntbom1dood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:10:54 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:19:40 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 17:20:01 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:20:46 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 17:37:28 -!- pinskian has joined. 17:37:31 <pinskian> anyone used openssl 17:37:38 <pinskian> well ror rather good with C /bignums 17:40:00 <pikhq> I haven't. 17:40:05 <pikhq> Tried GMP? 17:41:34 <pinskian> nope 17:41:39 <pikhq> Pity. 17:41:50 <pikhq> Fairly good from C, excellent from C++. 17:41:59 <pinskian> there's a BN_bntompi() function supposed to do the conversion (bignum -> mpi) 17:42:07 <pinskian> but it expects a buffer, so there must be a way to know the size of that buffer either by a max constant or by arithmetics based on bignum size 17:42:12 <pinskian> and im stuck at that 17:42:28 <pinskian> pikhq: oh languages, well tried dylan? fairly fairly better than c and far ahead of c++ 17:42:33 <pikhq> The mpi type is just a struct, IIRC. 17:42:33 <pinskian> heard of D? 17:42:35 <pinskian> same 17:42:38 <pikhq> I've heard of D. . . 17:42:42 <pikhq> Gregor swears by it. 17:42:56 <pinskian> ok so any ideas on what i should do here 17:42:56 <pikhq> (IIRC, he wrote a fair chunk of GDC. . .) 17:43:03 <pikhq> Talk? 17:43:08 <pinskian> "BN_bn2mpi() stores the representation of a at to, where to must be large enough to hold the result. The size can be determined by calling BN_bn2mpi(a, NULL )." 17:43:16 <pinskian> so basically call it once with NULL as the 2nd param and it should return size? 17:43:23 <pinskian> but what about the buffer 17:43:29 <pikhq> Huh. 17:45:09 <pinskian> i eman the size of the buffer should be known so.. 17:45:27 <pinskian> or the size of the number is, in theory, completely arbitrary, not constant? 17:46:31 <pikhq> If you will excuse me, I'm going to kill every person who has a library function which just says "buffer must be correct size", without either asking *for* the right size *or* just saying "just pass a pointer to NULL, and we'll allocate it". -_-' 17:46:51 <pikhq> I honestly don't know how you're supposed to get the right size out of that. 17:47:36 <RodgerTheGreat> bbl 17:47:38 * pinskian slaps tokigun around a bit with a large trout 17:47:44 <pinskian> let me show you what i found 17:47:46 <pinskian> int len = BN_bn2mpi( urbignum, NULL ); 17:47:47 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit. 17:47:52 <pinskian> char mpibn[len]; 17:47:57 <pinskian> BN_bn2mpi( urbignum, (unsigned char*)mpibin ); 17:48:02 <pikhq> That's exceptionally annoying. 17:48:15 <pikhq> Be aware that "char mpibn[len];" will only work in GNU C. 17:48:52 <pikhq> *If* you want it to be portable, use "char *mpibn = alloca(len);". 17:49:04 <pikhq> Or use the joys of malloc. . . 17:52:02 <pinskian> erm im not sure you're following what im saying 17:52:05 * pinskian shrugs 17:53:05 <pikhq> alloca allocates memory, sort-of like malloc. *But*, when it can't, alloca will handle the error itself. . . When the function alloca is called from returns, the memory allocated is freed. 17:53:41 <pinskian> basically what is the BN_bntompi() function i should be using here 17:53:45 <pinskian> to get the conversion right 17:53:47 <pikhq> In some ways, it's like GNU C's variable-sized arrays, but alloca also works on BSD-based functions. . . 17:53:57 <pikhq> BSD-based systems, sorry. 17:54:26 <pinskian> if it works for BSD, its exactly whatim looking for 17:54:28 <pinskian> but im not sure where you're going with alloca and all.. 17:54:34 <pinskian> just need to know of this function:D 17:55:40 <pikhq> I'm saying "replace 'char mpibn[len];' with 'char *mpibn = alloc(len);', so it works in more places." 17:56:06 <pikhq> Insofar as BN_bn2mpi goes, I dunno. 17:56:07 <pinskian> but over all whats the fcuntion needed for the conversion? 17:56:24 <pinskian> thats what im asking in so far azs BN_bn2mpi 17:56:24 <pinskian> im stuck 17:57:07 <pinskian> pikhq: as for what you mentioned about replacement if i made a precompiler macro, solves the problem 17:57:08 <pinskian> not an issue 17:58:56 <pikhq> What do you need to convert the BIGNUM *to*? 17:59:18 <pinskian> (bignum -> mpi) 17:59:32 <pinskian> but like i said it expects a buffer 17:59:55 <pinskian> so we should know the size of it by whatever, using bignum size 18:03:00 <pinskian> im doing it in C strictly speaking 18:06:15 <pinskian> pikhq? 18:10:34 <pikhq> Dunno. 18:12:26 <pinskian> int len = BN_bn2mpi( urbignum, NULL );/* NULL instead of storage buffer causes function to just calculate buffer size requirements and return that value as an int */ 18:12:33 <pinskian> char mpibn[len]; /* allocate the buffer */ 18:12:46 <pinskian> BN_bn2mpi( urbignum, (unsigned char*)mpibin );/* calling the SAME function but this time we give it a valid ptr instead of NULL and it stores the result there */ 18:13:04 <pinskian> makes sense then yeah? to get the buffer size 18:14:53 <bsmntbombdood> oklopol: nick coloring 18:25:37 <Figs> *disappears* 18:25:46 -!- Figs has left (?). 18:32:00 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: autorejoin 18:37:05 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 18:39:45 <pinskian> pikhq: http://www.nomorepasting.com/getpaste.php?pasteid=4475 18:39:47 <pinskian> see if its alriht 18:39:59 <pinskian> basially mapping OpenSSL's RSA structure to something useable by nbpg 18:48:18 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:49:46 -!- pinskian has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:09:17 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:30:56 -!- frosty has joined. 19:31:02 <frosty> hola 19:32:42 -!- frosty has left (?). 19:46:04 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 19:49:13 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:59:55 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 20:07:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:10:14 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:42:43 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 21:22:31 -!- RedDak has joined. 22:05:58 <Tritonio> hello 22:06:39 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:12:49 -!- joxy has changed nick to molchuvka. 22:17:12 <oklopol> hi 22:18:02 <bsmntbombdood> hiiiiiih hi 22:26:34 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:47:03 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:47:04 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:59:31 <Tritonio> has anyone played infon here? 23:00:23 <lament> you mean here in this channel? 23:01:13 <Tritonio> no i mean generaly... 23:01:22 <Tritonio> generally* 23:05:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:25:25 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 23:25:25 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:50:51 -!- immibis has joined. 23:55:05 <immibis> could someone please tell me what is wrong with the sed command: s/^PRINT \([^ \$]+\$\)$/...../ 23:55:26 <immibis> i want to match PRINT basicVariable$, for example