00:01:01 <ihope__> Badumtish is?
00:02:42 <SimonRC> yes
00:13:08 <oerjan> english spelling is _hard_
00:14:42 <SimonRC> heh
00:15:36 <SimonRC> actually, "rimshot" might be horrible jargon abuse
00:16:40 <oerjan> it is a little known fact that 97% of all english words started out as horrible jargon abuse
00:16:40 <SimonRC> ah, yes   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_%28percussion%29
00:28:12 <ihope__> It's a well-known fact that 97% of statistics are made up on the spot.
00:28:31 <oerjan> that too.
00:30:02 <oerjan> although the equality of the two numbers have seen surprisingly little investigation, being mentioned in only 3% of the articles on the subject.
00:30:10 <oerjan> *has
00:35:23 <ihope__> Only 3% of the articles on it have actually mentioned it?
00:35:45 <oerjan> i said it was surprising.
00:36:31 <ihope__> Indeed.
00:38:52 * SimonRC reports SG-1 to the APS.
00:40:27 <oerjan> http://www.aps.com/
00:41:00 * oerjan reports SimonRC to the acronym police
00:41:04 <SimonRC> no, http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/
00:42:00 <SimonRC> they perform mass enslavement with words like "zat'nik'tel" and "Goa'uld"
00:42:27 <oerjan> i see. you wouldn't mind coming over to norway and cleaning up those apostrophes that have blown over the north sea?
00:42:39 <SimonRC> you can just about get away with in some of the cases, as sme of the languages have glottal stops, which are transliterated as '
00:42:57 <SimonRC> norwegian has apostrophes?
00:43:52 <oerjan> it's infected by english.  there is probably a norwegian apostrophe extermination society somewhere...
00:44:35 <oerjan> far too often people put an apostrophe before a genitive s
00:45:23 * SimonRC likes http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif  (and http://angryflower.com/destro.html)
00:45:30 <oerjan> strictly speaking it is sometimes correct to put an apostrophe after an s, similar to english plural genitives
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01:49:06 * SimonRC goes to bed
01:49:24 * bsmntbombdood is drained
02:15:09 <bsmntbombdood> http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/group_small.jpg    // yay!
02:16:27 <ihope__> bsmntbombdood: more pictures of you where we can't actually see you?
02:16:35 <bsmntbombdood> of course!
02:17:00 <bsmntbombdood> i take abstract pictures of myself because i'm uncomfortable with my appearance!
02:18:25 <bsmntbombdood> i have one where you can see my ass very clearly
02:18:35 <bsmntbombdood> is that better?
02:18:50 <ihope__> Which sense of "ass" is that?
02:19:01 <ihope__> If it's your donkey, then no, not really.
02:19:27 <bsmntbombdood> i don't have a donkey
02:22:54 <bsmntbombdood> jean covered and wet gluteuses
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04:48:54 <nodos> does esoteric programming languages have commercial use?
04:49:18 <bsmntbombdood> hahahahahahaaaa
04:49:34 <nodos> :D
04:49:48 <nodos> I expected that :P
04:51:46 <nodos> embedded systems?
04:51:58 <nodos> probably not, anyway...
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05:00:42 <pikhq> Probably not.
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05:10:52 <nodos> pikhq: think so
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09:04:12 <nooga> bsmntbombdood: http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/foo.jpg this looks nice
09:05:17 <nooga> http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/pic_3.jpg << whish one is you?
09:05:20 <nooga> which*
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09:16:23 <oklopol> i recall reading go was np
09:16:41 <oklopol> also semidecidable on an infinite board
09:17:21 <oklopol> ah
09:26:37 <oklopol> hmm... pi calculus is trivial, methinks
09:27:18 <nooga> e?
09:30:11 <nooga> pi calculus seems to be nice background for another esolang :]
09:33:00 -!- oerjan has joined.
09:38:07 <nooga> hei oerjan
09:38:18 <oerjan> hei nooga
09:39:25 <nooga> i've just returned from norway :D
09:39:56 <oerjan> oklopol: no, Go is ("probably") harder than that, it's PSPACE-complete: http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/lr288/presentations/Go.pdf
09:40:49 <oklopol> oerjan: "ah" was "oh, oerjan cleared it up"
09:40:49 <oerjan> did you get to speak the language?
09:41:16 <nooga> nah
09:41:53 <oklopol> what other calculi are there? pi and lambda were so trivial there aren't enough letters to keep me busy for long if the rest are the same :)
09:42:00 <nooga> but i know some swedish instead >:D
09:42:21 <oerjan> aargh!
09:42:56 <nooga> besides, almos all ppl in norway speak english better than me
09:43:55 <oerjan> that's said to be a problem learning norwegian - we switch to english if we detect you are not very good at norwegian
09:44:08 <nooga> yup
09:44:40 <oklopol> well.. that's pretty much true for any language other than english...
09:44:47 <nooga> nah :D
09:45:01 <nooga> in poland, ppl look at you and don't know what to do
09:45:06 <oklopol> it's true for finnish, swedish and german at least
09:45:08 <nooga> if you don't speak polish
09:45:11 <oklopol> haha :D
09:45:12 <oerjan> oklopol: try some typed lambda-based calculus, like System F or calculus of constructions
09:45:23 <oklopol> hmm... sounds nice
09:45:42 <oklopol> http://sigfpe.blogspot.com/2007/09/type-of-distinct-pairs.html <<< was reading this, and realized i seem to have no idea what types are...
09:46:02 <oklopol> ...but i understood the first paragraph!
09:47:34 <oerjan> ideally you also want to look at sequent calculi for logics and the Curry-Howard isomorphism with types
09:48:03 <oerjan> in fact i guess you need that to understand the calculus of constructions
09:48:35 * oerjan just realized he might be scaring oklopol away
09:48:38 <oklopol> :D
09:48:53 <oklopol> no no, i just don't know what to google for first...
09:49:25 <oklopol> there should be a list of stuff to learn somewhere, in order of complexity...
09:49:53 <oerjan> also, the Hindley-Milner type system used in Haskell and ML
09:50:12 <oerjan> (which is simpler than the other two i mentioned)
09:50:17 <oklopol> hmm... can you give me a link, i'll tell you if i get it :=P
09:50:18 <oklopol> oh
09:50:21 <oklopol> i'll check that out
09:50:55 <oerjan> although both languages add more on top
09:52:27 <oerjan> i'm not sure about links, try wikipedia
10:04:36 <nooga> oerjan: i deciphered a sign "kast ikke soppel i natur..." i guess it means "don't throw garbage in natural env..." :D
10:04:53 <nooga> without any help yay
10:05:19 <oerjan> yeah :)
10:05:47 <oerjan> "naturen" means "the nature"
10:05:49 <nooga> kast is like cast and cast means almost the same as throw
10:07:45 <oerjan> english being what it is, i think the term is "toss"
10:09:15 <nooga> http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9317/dsc00087gs0.jpg this sign is also funny
10:11:50 <oerjan> yeah, i have seen those signs
10:12:01 <oerjan> well, one of them
10:12:13 <oklopol> i could also decipher it!
10:12:20 <nooga> ;p
10:12:29 <oklopol> my swedish matriculation was today though, so might be a bit bad if i couldn't
10:12:38 <nooga> your what?
10:12:47 <oklopol> listening comprehension that is, written part is later
10:13:08 <nooga> hehe, you don't like swedes i guess
10:13:08 <oklopol> hmm... it's the tests we had @ end of high school
10:13:11 <oklopol> *have
10:13:30 <oerjan> "exams"
10:13:35 <oklopol> err yes
10:14:34 <oklopol> nooga: i don't like swedes, or oerjan doesn't?
10:15:04 <oklopol> i don't care about nationality really
10:15:05 <nooga> i heard, that everybody in scandinavia hates them ;-)
10:15:11 <oklopol> heh
10:15:20 <oklopol> that's quite true
10:15:29 <oklopol> in my experience
10:15:37 <oerjan> including the swedes? well it might actually make sense
10:15:45 <nooga> yup :D
10:15:55 <nooga> but i find them funny and quite polite
10:15:55 <oerjan> at least after reading Arne Anka
10:16:38 <oerjan> yeah they talk funny ;)
10:17:19 <nooga> and they have those funny red houses
10:17:39 <oerjan> actually you find that in norway too
10:17:48 <nooga> but you have more black ones
10:17:49 <nooga> !
10:17:52 <EgoBot> Huh?
10:18:02 <oerjan> i mean in the countryside
10:18:03 <oklopol> my house is gray
10:18:23 <oerjan> i think this house is brown
10:18:34 <oklopol> you don't go out much, eh?
10:18:57 <oerjan> i don't go out to watch this house :)
10:20:39 <fizzie> This house is made of red bricks: http://tietokilta.fi/esittely/tttalo/img/t-talo-etukulma-lahempaa_s.jpg
10:20:46 <fizzie> (Not that I live here or anything.)
10:21:20 <nooga> besides, in poland i can buy 0.5l vodka, one bread and smoked fish for 50nok, in norway.... maybe one bread and some butter
10:21:23 <nooga> :D
10:21:41 <oerjan> definitely no vodka :D
10:22:09 <oerjan> well, maybe one small shot
10:22:20 <nooga> hehe
10:22:25 <oklopol> what's euro/nok?
10:22:53 <fizzie> eur/nk!
10:23:08 <oklopol> er/n!!
10:23:22 <fizzie> Well, that's only if u=k.
10:23:25 <nooga> 1 eur = 3.60 pln , 1 pln = 2nok
10:23:49 <oklopol> oh, indeed, i failed !'s semantics.
10:23:52 <oklopol> :)
10:24:19 <fizzie> euro/nok = eurø/nøk = eur/nk.
10:24:30 <oklopol> eur�
10:24:47 <nooga> o.O
10:25:15 <oerjan> oklopol: you finns call it that?
10:25:23 <oerjan> vowel harmony ftw
10:25:34 <oklopol> sorry, no :)
10:25:52 <oklopol> in finnish, words are rarely finnified
10:26:16 <oklopol> because that'd require too much work
10:26:57 <nooga> i heard that finnish is almost as difficult as polish, if i was forced to learn polish again i would fail definately
10:27:05 <oklopol> in finnish, you also couldn't even have "eur�"
10:27:11 <oklopol> u and � can't be in the same word
10:27:17 <nooga> so i guess with finnish it wold be the same
10:27:26 <oklopol> oh
10:27:32 <nooga> would*
10:27:45 <oklopol> it's exactly because we have vowel harmony, i missed your line
10:28:14 <nooga> chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie, w strzebrzeszynie
10:28:23 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure polish is easy
10:28:26 <nooga> does it fit your vovel harmony?
10:28:32 <oklopol> is that polish?
10:28:36 <nooga> yeah
10:28:37 <nooga> :>
10:28:41 <oklopol> fits well
10:28:44 <fizzie> It's got about three-four times as many consonants as it needs, though.
10:28:46 <oklopol> do you even have umlaut?
10:29:00 <oklopol> yeah, bad serialization there
10:29:02 <nooga> we've got śćółńążź
10:29:11 <nooga> but i guess you can't see them
10:29:14 <nooga> sec.
10:29:21 <oerjan> indeed not
10:29:21 <oklopol> is that a polish word or jsut the list of the letters?
10:29:24 <oklopol> and i can see them
10:29:34 <oklopol> *just
10:29:34 <nooga> list of letters
10:29:38 <oklopol> ah
10:29:40 <fizzie> I can see the third one there. (This work-box does latin-1 at the moment.)
10:29:53 <fizzie> "??ó?????"
10:30:29 <oerjan> � e i a � �
10:30:32 <oklopol> i've never seen that unary umlaut used in ż
10:30:47 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_language#Orthography
10:30:47 <fizzie> The 'slashed-l' looks funny.
10:30:50 <nooga> look here
10:31:02 <oerjan> (local dialect, means "i'm in 'A', too")
10:31:10 <fizzie> Already opened a more reasonable terminal.
10:31:32 <fizzie> "scolnazz" sounds like a word.
10:31:49 <oklopol> oerjan: norwegian, that is?
10:31:59 <oklopol> i though it was "school nights" :D
10:32:09 <oerjan> yes
10:32:11 <nooga> lol
10:32:11 <nooga> no
10:33:12 <nooga> the most funny thing is that in polish we've got many rules, which have something about 2000 exceptions
10:33:22 <nooga> so are theese rures really? :D
10:33:30 <nooga> rules*
10:33:38 <nooga> 200*
10:33:43 <nooga> lol, stupid kbd
10:34:28 <nooga> or many ways to say the same like: gdzie żeś ty był, gdzie ty byłeś, gdzieś ty był
10:34:43 <nooga> it means exactly the same
10:35:01 <nooga> or gdzie żeś był, gdzie byłeś
10:35:27 <oklopol> there's no way to convince me it's not trivial, sorry :<
10:35:28 <nooga> = where were you (to man)
10:35:56 <nooga> because you're finn
10:35:59 <nooga> :P
10:36:01 <oklopol> i'll learn it some beautiful day
10:36:18 <oerjan> wow, english wikipedia passed two million articles
10:36:22 <oklopol> is polish anyway related to finnish?
10:36:35 <oerjan> no
10:36:41 <oklopol> thought so
10:36:42 <oerjan> polish is indo-european
10:36:43 <nooga> nop
10:36:59 <oklopol> so it's not "because you're finn", it's "but you're wrong"
10:37:05 <nooga> but you have complex grammar
10:37:13 <oerjan> like english, norwegian and swedish
10:37:18 <oklopol> well yeah, and thus have a bigger brain, true
10:37:45 <oklopol> (it's huge)
10:37:59 <nooga> so you're used to those constructions like shit-tons of cases, genres and other thingys
10:39:15 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russenorsk LOL!
10:39:20 <oklopol> we don't have genre!
10:39:28 <oklopol> that's my one weakness :|
10:40:39 <nooga> oh nooo
10:40:40 <oerjan> "gender"
10:40:49 <nooga> i must go out and buy some food
10:41:48 <fizzie> There's just 15 noun cases, is that really a lot?
10:42:05 <nooga> seen more?
10:42:21 <nooga> 16?
10:43:53 <fizzie> Well, no. But not all of them are even commonly used.
10:44:41 <nooga> multiply that 15 by 3 genres and 3 times and 6 person and 2 sides and add some exceptions
10:45:45 <oerjan> it's much easier with agglutination.  just heap on more suffixes!
10:46:41 <fizzie> Which is what we mostly do.
10:47:07 <oerjan> i don't think polish does.
10:47:08 <nooga> arrgh, because you're finns
10:48:30 <fizzie> Agglutinativeness makes word-based speech recognition language models work really crappily, though, since you can't get a reasonably sized lexicon.
10:48:39 <nooga> oerjan: yeah, but try to use a dictionary
10:48:45 <nooga> yeah
10:50:44 <nooga> but my dog undestands "iść" = to go, "idziemy" = we go, "pójdziemy" = we will go and "pójdzieszyou wi" ll go, the same with wyjść, wyjdziesz, wyjdziemy (which means generally to go out)
10:50:55 <nooga> pójdziesz = you'll go
10:52:57 <nooga> brb, i need pójść to the shop ;)
10:54:15 <fizzie> And does the dog understand the differences there?
10:54:28 <nooga> i guess no
10:54:40 <nooga> but it understands what will happen :D
10:54:47 <nooga> after saying one of those
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11:10:13 <fizzie> Word-splitted the irclogs of one Finnish-speaking channel (252856 lines; one year) to see if our words actually get to be so long everyone says they do. The longest real word there was "epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyydelläänsäkäänkinköhän" (52 characters), but I think that was just an example of a long word.
11:16:29 <nooga> yeah
11:16:38 <nooga> finnish words are long ;p
11:16:49 <nooga> sou you don't talk too much
11:17:22 <oklopol> hmm... i doubt "k��n" and "kin" can be in the same word, and i remember that without "kin"
11:17:49 <oklopol> i don't understand it with "kin"
11:18:07 <fizzie> The other long words seem to be boring compound words.
11:18:34 <oklopol> i've heard "ep�kumarreksituteskentulaisehkollaismaisekkuudellisentelem�tt�myydell�ns�k��nk�h�n"
11:18:42 <oklopol> but i can't really find the base word there...
11:18:53 <oklopol> that's something i memorized when i was little
11:18:59 <oklopol> hmm
11:19:23 <oklopol> sorry, ep�kumarreksituteskenteleentovaisehkollaismaisekkuudellisentelem�tt�myydell�ns�k��nk�h�n
11:19:53 <oklopol> most of it seems coherent, but the beginning doesn't seem to start a word...
11:19:55 <nooga> yeah
11:19:58 <nooga> but that's a cheat
11:20:13 <oklopol> compound words, or mine?
11:20:14 <nooga> you can make one word with a meaning of whole sentence
11:21:20 <fizzie> There's "kahdensinekymmenensine-ensimmäisineen" as a spontaneous word in the logs, but that's just an inflected (the silly comitative case, I think) ordinal number 21, with the third-person singular possessive suffix.
11:21:25 <nooga> i should make an esolang whish would look like finnish words
11:21:59 <nooga> heheh, 21 is famous
11:22:00 <oklopol> haha, i love how finnish numbers inflict :P
11:22:14 <oklopol> many people don't know how to do it
11:22:15 <nooga> dwudziestypierwszy in polish ;p
11:22:18 <oklopol> even native
11:22:42 <nooga> with 3-rd person possesive suffix it would be dwudziestegopierwszego
11:23:08 <nooga> dziewięćdziesiątegodziewiątego
11:23:21 <nooga> 99th
11:23:30 <oklopol> oh, so works like finnish
11:23:43 <oklopol> i mean, the infliction system
11:23:48 <oklopol> gotta get foods ->
11:23:49 <nooga> i guess
11:24:15 <oklopol> i mean, that you map the infliction to every separate digit in the whole number
11:25:12 <nooga> right
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11:26:48 <nooga> hey oerjan, i just bought 8 rolls for 4nok :D
11:26:58 <oklopol> nie nie mowie po polsku
11:27:03 * oerjan points out that infliction and inflection don't quite mean the same thing, although given finnish both _may_ be appropriate
11:27:06 <nooga> while you can buy one roll for 10, probably
11:27:11 <oerjan> polish too, i guess
11:27:34 <nooga> oerjan: wiem to, ja nie mówie po fińsku :)
11:27:38 <oerjan> rolls of what?
11:27:51 <nooga> from bakery
11:27:51 <oklopol> nooga: was that for me?
11:27:52 <nooga> ;p
11:27:58 <nooga> yea
11:28:10 <nooga> you both begin with o
11:28:11 <nooga> ;p
11:28:24 <oklopol> my father has been to poland, apparently
11:28:40 <oklopol> "why were you there?" "to pass the time"
11:28:57 <oerjan> strangely enough i think i understand everything except "wiem"
11:28:58 <oklopol> nooga: my father wants to know where you live in poland
11:29:19 <nooga> oklopol: in poznan
11:29:31 <oklopol> he's been tehre
11:29:32 <oklopol> *there
11:29:50 <nooga> oerjan: hehe, wiem to = i know that..
11:30:31 <nooga> oklopol: cool, probably 20 years aggo, when poland was in dam USSR and looked like shit ;/
11:30:37 <nooga> damn*
11:31:42 <oklopol> nooga: 1968 first, then 3 times after that, but didn't remember when
11:31:54 <nooga> ahh
11:32:02 <nooga> it must be horrible
11:32:19 <nooga> to remember those times ;p
11:32:53 <oklopol> well, he was there "to pass the time", and he was there four times, i don't think it was *that* unpleasant
11:33:48 <nooga> i like to go and pass the time in scandinavia ;p
11:33:53 <nooga> eg. nera indre folda
11:33:56 <nooga> near*
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11:37:45 <nooga> and fight with mosquitos big as tractors
11:37:46 <nooga> '[
11:38:14 <oklopol> yeah they're huge, i just was a meter long one on my trip to school today
11:38:20 <oklopol> *i just saw
11:39:10 <nooga> hre, we've got small ones an they're not immune to repellents, like yours
11:39:55 <oklopol> hmm... you must have really good eyes, if they're smaller than ours
11:40:09 <oklopol> (i've been to norway, they're pretty pathetic there too :))
11:41:38 <oerjan> it's not the size, it's the numbers.  especially in Finnmark, i hear.
11:42:07 <oerjan> (northernmost county)
11:44:34 <nooga> ahh
11:44:38 <oklopol> oh, that i must agree with...
11:44:41 <nooga> i must create some sandwitches
11:45:18 <oklopol> i remember being on a car trip with my parents, we once had to stop for a while because you actually couldn't see well enough to drive
11:45:26 <oklopol> because of the moswuitoes
11:45:27 <oklopol> *q
11:45:33 <nooga> ZOMG
11:46:13 <fizzie> Misread "being in a car trap with my parents". That sounds interesting.
11:46:15 <nooga> "honey, today i overtook 6 mosquitos on the highway""
11:48:17 <nooga> i was cleaning the grill of my car on every stop
11:48:41 <nooga> to make it white again
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11:50:02 <oerjan> i don't think insisting on a clean car in Norway is good for your sanity.  although mostly because of mud, i guess.
11:52:05 <nooga> and those gravel roads
11:52:09 <nooga> they suck
11:52:19 <nooga> everybody drive fast on them
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11:52:40 <oklopol> darn, gotta restart
11:52:42 <oklopol> *reboot
11:52:52 <nooga> and damage my precious paint with little rocks
11:53:42 <oerjan> although i've heard worse things about italians - apparently they consider the car bumper a tool to be used during parking
11:53:53 <nooga> yeah
11:57:14 <oklopol> heh
11:57:39 <oklopol> oh, yeah, the reboot...
11:57:41 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )").
12:00:19 <nooga> hehe
12:01:05 <nooga> in poland, if the speed limit is 90 you go 100-110 or faster
12:01:10 <nooga> on normal road
12:01:26 <nooga> in norway, i tried to keep 80
12:01:38 <nooga> because i was afraid of police
12:02:17 <nooga> here, maximal ticket is about 1000nok (eg. for driving 140 when the limit is 50
12:02:21 <nooga> )
12:03:12 <oerjan> ah yes the fines were increased a while ago to amounts even norwegians consider ridiculous
12:03:47 -!- ehird`_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
12:03:49 -!- ehird` has joined.
12:12:07 -!- Figs has joined.
12:12:16 <Figs> http://digg.com/apple/Steve_Jobs_Offers_Early_Lisa_Adopters_Store_Credit <-- :P
12:14:52 <nooga> http://www.bbspot.com/News/2007/08/iphone-hacker-headed-to-guantanamo.html
12:14:54 <nooga> this one is better
12:15:05 <Figs> lol
12:16:17 <nooga> "We couldn't have a powerful phone like the iPhone working on a speedy network. ..."
12:16:32 <nooga> ...It would've become the perfect tool for fashionable terrorists. ..."
12:16:37 <nooga> LOLZ!
12:16:42 <Figs> "I haven't seen him sleep or comb his hair for a few weeks. He usually looks like that, so I'm not too worried."
12:16:51 <Figs> ROFL
12:16:54 <nooga> ah, normal 17-year old hacker
12:17:02 <nooga> but to guantanamo?!!?!?!
12:17:27 <nooga> that is ridiculous
12:17:55 -!- oklopol has joined.
12:18:01 <Figs> for a few weeks? pssshaaw! I don't think I've combed my hair in months, let alone a *Few weeks*
12:18:11 <Figs> ... hi oklopol
12:18:14 <oklopol> hi!
12:18:27 <oerjan> that reboot took you a while :D
12:18:29 <Figs> http://digg.com/apple/Steve_Jobs_Offers_Early_Lisa_Adopters_Store_Credit <-- you missed the fun
12:18:37 <oklopol> well... i played my piano a bit
12:18:38 <Figs> http://www.bbspot.com/News/2007/08/iphone-hacker-headed-to-guantanamo.html
12:18:40 <Figs> and the other fun
12:18:43 <Figs> reboot?
12:18:47 <Figs> .... :P
12:18:48 <oklopol> i rebooted
12:18:56 <Figs> ah
12:19:00 <Figs> I thought you meant me
12:19:06 <Figs> so you played piano, eh? :D
12:19:19 <Figs> got anything for me? :D:D:D:D
12:19:24 <Figs> *smily overload*
12:20:53 <oklopol> oh, your piece :)
12:21:13 <Figs> ^.^
12:21:23 <oklopol> i composed and learned to play a piece of my own a few days ago, but haven't touched yours for a while :)
12:21:29 <Figs> rofl
12:21:32 <Figs> ok :)
12:21:46 <oklopol> it's not really a piece, like 4 bars sofar
12:21:50 * Figs has beaten the guru.
12:22:03 <oklopol> i still think it's not that hard!
12:22:11 <oklopol> i'll do it before christmas kay? :)
12:22:15 <Figs> lol
12:22:18 <Figs> if you say so
12:22:25 <oklopol> you don't believe me? :D
12:22:26 * Figs would like to hear it still
12:22:36 <Figs> it just sounds... familiar... :)
12:22:45 <oklopol> heh, yeah
12:22:59 * Figs will leave it at that ;)
12:23:35 <oklopol> 4.5 pages of TODO list now
12:23:46 <Figs> haha ;)
12:23:53 <oklopol> (though it also has other random stuff)
12:23:55 <Figs> I still have to finish my damned parser :sigh:
12:24:18 <Figs> I've been working on it (REALLY WORKING!!) since january... and I'm still not "Done" with it
12:24:24 <oklopol> like examples of my work-in-process conlang
12:24:24 <oklopol> cats you can have sex with are great
12:24:24 <oklopol> nipofucaa
12:24:34 <oklopol> i'm aiming for 4:1
12:24:42 <Figs> what about cats now? O_o
12:24:52 <oklopol> that was an example.
12:25:01 <oklopol> cats you can have sex with are great == nipofucaa
12:25:15 <Figs> >.>
12:25:21 <Figs> okaaay.
12:25:22 <oklopol> though requires a bit of library imports first
12:25:35 <Figs> your conlang requires libraries ?!
12:25:41 <oklopol> i have a hard time interpreting pieces of text with more than one languages in them == mesh�nuc�lalnatev�n�
12:25:43 <Figs> are we talking about the same things?
12:25:52 <oklopol> well, libraries, modules, whatever
12:26:09 <Figs> conlangs like esperanto?
12:26:11 <oklopol> yeah
12:26:31 <Figs> how the hell do you have modules/libraries in a spoken language?
12:26:31 <nooga> what?
12:26:37 <oklopol> that one can be made considerably shorter with imports, it now has explicit library tags there
12:26:48 <Figs> o-o
12:26:53 * Figs gives up understanding
12:26:59 <oklopol> well, you just have basic words in the stdlib
12:27:15 <nooga> lol
12:27:16 <oklopol> then there's "the animal module", "the programming module" etc
12:27:20 <Figs> http://www.zompist.com/kit.html
12:27:29 <nooga> oklopol: how it works?
12:27:36 <oklopol> you have the same word base mean a different thing depending on the current library
12:27:38 <Figs> oklopolio
12:27:43 <Figs> what does that mean ? :P
12:28:15 <ehird`> how do yuou pronounce meshânucólalnatevênò
12:28:46 <oklopol> i'm mainly aiming for a written language, but it's pronounced as lojban, pretty much
12:28:59 <oklopol> ^, � and ` are always the same thing, i think
12:29:03 <oklopol> in any lang
12:29:07 <Figs> meash Ayn *flarg* nUUUUC AYYYYN *slpurt* laaalnatev AYRHN ghrr-g n ayrrn SPPPH
12:29:09 <Figs> like that
12:29:17 <ehird`> i prefer 'flooble'
12:29:21 <ehird`> "meshânucólalnatevênò" -> "flooble"
12:29:26 <Figs> oklopol: esperanto
12:29:31 <oklopol> what about it?
12:29:47 <Figs> horlogo
12:29:51 <oklopol> ehird`: what's the logic there?
12:30:01 <oklopol> you gotta have logic!
12:30:05 <ehird`> oklopol: its easier than pronouncing "meshânucólalnatevênò"
12:30:09 <ehird`> thats my logic
12:30:21 <ehird`> i only like languages with odd alphabets anyway
12:30:35 <Figs> ehird`: like apl? :P
12:30:40 <ehird`> yes!
12:30:43 <Figs> http://www.zompist.com/dhitelan.gif
12:30:44 <oklopol> i don't really care about the alphabet
12:30:45 <oerjan> aq fnt brk sprts�kert grfnak
12:31:19 <ehird`> çeãt
12:31:34 <oklopol> meshânucólalnatevênò is easy to pronounce anyway
12:31:51 <oklopol> once you know how the tone stuff works
12:31:56 <oklopol> is it "tone"?
12:31:59 <Figs> of course! You just say "meash Ayn *flarg* nUUUUC AYYYYN *slpurt* laaalnatev AYRHN ghrr-g n ayrrn SPPPH"
12:32:02 <oklopol> intonation... or something
12:32:11 <ehird`> çæj˙t
12:32:14 <ehird`> ^ that should be a word
12:32:27 <Figs> AsholAngrrjeytamart
12:32:55 <Figs> have fun with that one :D
12:33:11 <oklopol> Figs: that supposed to be hard to pronounce?
12:33:23 <Figs> no
12:33:26 <oklopol> i don't see how anything can be hard to pronounce, just make the sounds :|
12:33:29 <Figs> that's my interpretation of what you said
12:33:33 <ehird`> çæj˙t, i like that word
12:33:47 <oklopol> i don't know what ç and æ are
12:33:49 <ehird`> oklopol: is "a" pronounced "augh" or "ooo""?
12:33:55 <ehird`> oklopol: pronounciation is language-specific.
12:34:00 <oklopol> ehird`: like in "car"
12:34:15 <ehird`> oklopol: see, you have to specify that.
12:34:19 <oklopol> i did.
12:34:22 <oerjan> o caro mio
12:34:25 <Figs> �oo+ umop ap!s&n �le+ noh ue>
12:34:41 <oklopol> "it's pronounced as lojban, pretty much"
12:34:43 <Figs> [try turning your head over]
12:36:12 <oklopol> yay
12:36:22 <oklopol> (was aiming for "heh")
12:37:06 <oerjan> yeq
12:37:44 <oerjan> 6nqwny
12:37:54 <oklopol> :P
12:38:00 <oklopol> i can read that now \o/
12:38:13 <ehird`> çæj't
12:38:35 <Figs> ????ll?n??? 'un? ?o pui? si si??
12:38:39 <ehird`> és'h
12:38:43 <oklopol> ehird`: do specify how that's pronounced
12:39:06 <Figs> �oo? no? o? u?op-?pisdn dn ?o?s si?? s?op
12:39:06 <ehird`> çæj't is pronounced kinda like english "gait"
12:39:21 <Figs> does that work, or do you guys get boxes?
12:39:28 <oklopol> Figs: question marks
12:39:36 <Figs> darn
12:39:54 <oklopol> ehird`: but not exactly like it?
12:40:03 <oklopol> "gait" == "gate", right?
12:40:13 <ehird`> oklopol: yeah
12:40:16 <ehird`> its kind of like "gate"
12:40:19 <ehird`> but not really
12:40:39 <oklopol> well what's different?
12:40:47 <oklopol> are there consonants english doesn't have?
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12:41:00 <Figs> what do you say when some trips over their fence? ... His gait was off?... not really funny :(
12:41:01 <ehird`> i'll try and find words to explain it
12:41:21 * oerjan chuckled
12:41:25 <Figs> :P
12:41:36 <Figs> http://www.revfad.com/flip.html <-- evil and cool together
12:41:47 <oklopol> when a gate is off, is it closed?
12:41:58 <oklopol> when a gait is off, is it off-beat?
12:42:59 <oerjan> bah, just strange hooks
12:43:04 <Figs> hooks?
12:44:08 <ehird`> t́ås'ɔ
12:44:11 <ehird`> hm
12:44:16 <ehird`> t-with-` doesn't display properly
12:44:22 <ehird`> just t thent
12:44:26 <ehird`> tås'ɔ
12:44:30 <ehird`> hm
12:44:31 <ehird`> not sure about ɔ
12:44:43 <ehird`> tås'ʌ
12:44:53 <ehird`> tås'ɛ
12:45:01 <oklopol> squareee
12:45:01 <ehird`> tås'ɪ
12:45:05 <oklopol> squareee
12:45:06 <oklopol> squareee
12:45:08 <ehird`> no
12:45:13 <Figs> [][][][][][]
12:45:13 <ehird`> use utf-8
12:45:14 <ehird`> :/
12:45:30 <Figs> [.]_ [.] <(Balrog says "Hi")
12:45:36 <Figs> kudos if you get it
12:45:44 * Figs + lame ascii art
12:45:49 <ehird`> tåsˌc
12:45:51 <ehird`> hm
12:45:53 <ehird`> ˌ is ugly
12:45:53 <oerjan> Figs: like the upper left corner of a rectangle
12:46:32 <oerjan> (that flip page)
12:47:09 <Figs> is [] allowed in a nick name?
12:47:13 -!- Figs has changed nick to Figs][.
12:47:16 <Figs][> cool
12:47:24 <Figs][> I'm figs ][
12:47:32 -!- Figs][ has changed nick to Apple][.
12:47:34 <Apple][> damn
12:47:43 <Apple][> frozen
12:47:54 -!- Apple][ has changed nick to Figs][.
12:48:00 <oerjan> frozen Apples? yuck
12:48:43 -!- Figs][ has changed nick to Figs.
12:49:14 -!- oklopol has changed nick to []kl[]p[]l.
12:49:16 <[]kl[]p[]l> yeah
12:49:28 <Figs> lol
12:49:39 <[]kl[]p[]l> this is some nick abuse
12:49:44 -!- []kl[]p[]l has changed nick to oklopol.
12:50:34 <Figs> 0kl0p0|
12:50:45 <Figs> is | allowed?
12:51:35 -!- oklopol has changed nick to o|.
12:51:37 <o|> yeah
12:51:41 <o|> check the spec
12:51:44 -!- o| has changed nick to oklopol.
12:52:06 <oklopol> | is the same as \ iirc
12:52:12 <ehird`> çæj't
12:52:13 <ehird`> tås'i
12:52:14 <oerjan> there's a speck on my cheque
12:52:25 <ehird`> çæj't is kind of like "gate", but not really
12:52:33 <ehird`> challenge: what does tås'i sound like
12:52:44 <oklopol> tos.i?
12:52:52 <ehird`> no
12:52:54 <ehird`> å is "aaaah"
12:52:59 <ehird`> like in father
12:53:00 <oklopol> so taas.i
12:53:15 <ehird`> the t isn't really a t
12:53:20 <oklopol> what then?
12:53:33 <oklopol> "the", "thick", "day"?
12:53:42 <ehird`> well, i'll try and pronounce çæj't
12:53:43 <oklopol> or just "t" without the implicit "h"
12:53:56 <oklopol> i forgot the term again...
12:54:19 <ehird`> well, ç is kind of like a cross between "c" and hard "g"
12:54:35 <ehird`> æ is "ay" in english
12:54:36 <Figs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fig_newton2.jpg <-- I should set this as my icon
12:54:41 <ehird`> j is "y" in english
12:54:58 <ehird`> ' means "don't do the crazy mushing-together-consonant-stuff-on-this", so it's like a break. it is not pronounced
12:55:07 <ehird`> t is kind of like a "soft" english t
12:55:14 -!- sebbu has quit ("reboot").
12:55:14 <oklopol> "glottal stop", right?
12:55:18 <ehird`> its kind of like the "t" in "th", except more pronounced
12:55:27 <Figs> ecchi!
12:55:33 <oklopol> the "t" in "th" can be two different things
12:55:37 <ehird`> so çæj't /kind of/ sounds like "gate"
12:55:40 <ehird`> but not really
12:55:45 <oklopol> also, in british english there's a third one
12:55:48 <ehird`> does that make sense?
12:56:04 <ehird`> oklopol: i'm british, so the british english "then" i think
12:56:14 <ehird`> oklopol: "the" is too soft a t
12:56:32 <oklopol> "the" is the exception, you seem to have a separate consonant for that..
12:56:50 <ehird`> maybe the "t" in "the"
12:56:56 <ehird`> yeah, the "t" in "the" except more pronounced
12:57:00 <ehird`> i.e. not /quite/ as soft
12:57:04 <ehird`> still soft, but now audible
12:57:08 <oklopol> do pronounce on tape :)
12:57:15 <oklopol> audiobin!
12:57:17 <ehird`> i have trouble pronouncing it myself :p
12:57:28 <ehird`> i can play it in my head :p
12:57:50 <oklopol> well send it
12:57:53 <oklopol> via telepathy
12:58:18 <ehird`> whoa, my comment got 86 points on reddit</nerd>
12:58:29 <Figs> linky?
12:58:43 <Figs> what's your reddit name
12:59:03 <Figs> http://reddit.com/user/ehird/ << --- ?
12:59:14 <Figs> haha, I read that earlier
12:59:23 <Figs> {the invisible one, right?}
12:59:26 <ehird`> yeah
12:59:31 <Figs> I thought the name looked familiar
12:59:34 <Figs> but I couldn't remember why
12:59:40 * Figs = idiot
12:59:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("Dinner").
12:59:48 <ehird`> heh
12:59:54 <oklopol> http://www.revfad.com/flip.html <<< "w" and "m" give me squares, is that because i don't have utf8 or it just doesn't know?
12:59:56 <ehird`> i am internet-omnipotent
12:59:56 <Figs> I have (1) karma :'(
13:00:09 <ehird`> Figs: me too
13:03:49 <ehird`> hmm, çæj't and tås'i are beginning to look like regular words
13:03:57 <ehird`> instead of exotic belches of text
13:04:05 <Figs> text-belch, blargh!
13:04:29 <Figs> ��?�+r��
13:04:30 <ehird`> xD
13:04:36 <ehird`> incompatible encoding
13:04:37 <ehird`> use utf8
13:04:48 <Figs> I used ascii magic :P
13:04:54 <ehird`> use utf8!!
13:04:56 <ehird`> :p
13:05:18 <Figs> ? <-- help me find a way to make that look naughty
13:05:45 <Figs> http://mirror.linnwood.org/flamethrower/
13:05:46 <Figs> O_O
13:05:54 <oklopol> ehird`: they looked pretty normal all along, i just don't know what they mean yet
13:05:58 <oklopol> are you gonna tell me :)
13:06:06 <ehird`> oklopol: what, they're meant to have meaning?..
13:06:15 <Figs> they mean what they say.
13:06:20 <ehird`> oklopol: I just wrote words that could be pronounced in a consistent system because they looked and sounded nice.
13:06:21 <Figs> didn't you know that? ;)
13:06:35 <Figs> endofendobargraph.
13:06:46 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
13:07:18 <Figs> hello SEO_DUDE
13:07:54 * oklopol wants meaning!
13:08:35 <Figs> it means it's not cheesy enough.
13:08:45 * Figs invented a meaning.
13:08:48 <ehird`> oklopol: Help me develop it as a conlang then :p
13:09:05 <Figs> ehird`: Jo ho ho no ho lo ko po ho?
13:09:14 <ehird`> Figs: Ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho?
13:09:24 <Figs> Ho ho ho! Sa ho ho klaus.
13:09:29 <oklopol> ehird`: right after i finish my own languages :)
13:09:48 <oklopol> se ya next millenium
13:10:21 <ehird`> ok
13:10:22 <ehird`> ;)
13:11:39 <Figs> ehird`, you are now my friend
13:11:49 <Figs> [on reddit]
13:12:39 <ehird`> :D YAY AM HAPPY LOLLERSKATES.
13:12:42 <ehird`> Um. yeah
13:21:44 * Figs lollerscates around
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14:07:08 <nooga> !!!
14:07:10 <EgoBot> Huh?
14:27:38 <Figs> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Object_disoriented_Turing-completeness_proof Error!!
14:43:14 <Figs> wow
14:43:20 <Figs> the post is taking off
14:43:23 <Figs> 14 diggs
14:50:52 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
14:51:03 -!- jix has joined.
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15:10:34 <nooga> where 14 diggs?
15:12:38 <Figs> http://digg.com/apple/Steve_Jobs_Offers_Early_Lisa_Adopters_Store_Credit
15:12:40 <Figs> 16 now
15:13:13 <oklopol> Figs: what's the error?
15:13:23 <Figs> it doesn't load and says error?
15:13:33 <Figs> or did
15:14:21 <Figs> ergh, if we could just get like, 7 ~ 10 diggs all at the same time
15:14:25 <Figs> this link would take off
15:14:28 <nooga> Figs: i've found that article!@
15:14:42 <Figs> ?
15:15:27 <nooga> 13:12 < Figs> http://digg.com/apple/Steve_Jobs_Offers_Early_Lisa_Adopters_Store_Credit <-- :P
15:15:30 <nooga> 13:15 < nooga> http://www.bbspot.com/News/2007/08/iphone-hacker-headed-to-guantanamo.html
15:15:34 <nooga> 13:15 < nooga> this one is better
15:15:35 <nooga> lol
15:15:39 <nooga> lol i'm stupid
15:15:41 <nooga> sorry
15:15:46 <nooga> :D
15:15:53 <nooga> ok, nothing
15:15:56 <nooga> bbl
15:16:00 <Figs> lol
15:17:15 <Figs> cya nooga
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16:12:52 <Figs> heading off
16:12:52 -!- Figs has left (?).
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16:59:50 <Sgeo> Hi jix
17:01:50 <bsmntbombdood> nooga: the shorter one
17:03:58 * Sgeo wonders if there's anything else PSOX needs
17:04:05 <Sgeo> Besides the builtin domains
17:04:14 * Sgeo is considering removing RStrings..
17:05:33 * Sgeo waits for bsmntbombdood to make his usual insult against PSOX
17:08:46 <ehird`> when has bsmntbombdood ever insulted psox?
17:09:12 <ehird`> unless you consider constructive criticism, like I give and that I've seen bsmntbombdood give related to PSOX, insults
17:10:09 <bsmntbombdood> PSOX stands for "PSOX Sucks Other's Xenophobia"
17:11:15 <ehird`> ho-kay
17:18:16 <Sgeo> Blargh, I forgot whatever criticism there may have been
17:18:21 * Sgeo goes through logs
17:18:27 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood has only said "psox has not point", iirc :P
17:18:33 <oklopol> i'm not sure if that's constructive
17:19:03 <bsmntbombdood> bsmntbombdood has not a car
17:19:04 <bsmntbombdood> e
17:19:56 <oklopol> heh
17:20:11 <oklopol> i think psox is a great idea
17:20:20 <Sgeo> ty oklopol
17:20:56 <oklopol> ti-84 makes me wanna kill myself
17:21:18 <Sgeo> ..?
17:21:31 <oklopol> the features seem to be picked completely at random, and there is no syntax that binds them
17:21:38 <oklopol> everything is done in a random fashion
17:21:46 <oklopol> which you have to check from the manual
17:21:56 <oklopol> ti-84 is my oh so lovely calculator
17:22:19 <oklopol> now implementing "sublist"...
17:22:25 <Sgeo> I guess I should make the functions in the domains have some sort of sensible order..
17:23:05 <fizzie> Well, you can write z80 assembler for it; there's no need to use the silly TI-BASIC.
17:23:25 <fizzie> (At least the TI-BASIC version my TI-86 uses is silly.)
17:24:09 <oklopol> fizzie: yes, but then again, i could just as well code python on my laptop
17:24:35 <oklopol> when coding for the same of coding, it doesn't really matter what you code for...
17:24:38 <oklopol> *sake
17:25:23 * Sgeo doesn't know how to make the functions have a sensible order
17:26:33 <Sgeo> At least the order of the domains is sane: 0x00 and 0x01 are Pseudodomains, 0x02 is PSOX-System, 0x04 is Simple Utils, 0x06 is File I/O (note that 'F' is the 6th letter), 0x08 is HTTP (note that 'H' is the 8th letter)
17:26:46 <fizzie> I did floyd-steinberg error-distribution dithering with TI-BASIC once. I think it took around 15 minutes to process a single full-screen (128x64-pixel) greyscale frame.
17:26:46 <Sgeo> erm, maybe just somewhat sane..
17:29:58 <oklopol> heh
17:30:09 <oklopol> i'm not making anything with a big name, so the speed'll do
17:30:22 <bsmntbombdood> lol
17:57:44 <Sgeo> argh so tired
17:58:10 <pikhq> Sgeo: Believe me, I can sympathise.
17:58:21 <pikhq> I had a migraine that kept me up all last night.
18:07:38 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
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18:23:10 <Sgeo> Hi sebbu2 and oerjan
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18:29:40 <oerjan> hi Sgeo
19:05:08 <SimonRC> High!
19:05:15 <Sgeo> Hi SimonRC
19:05:24 <SimonRC> No, "high".
19:05:32 <Sgeo> hm?
19:05:43 <oklopol> lo
19:06:17 <SimonRC> ok, so I am feeling high and oklopol is feeling low
19:06:47 <SimonRC> we need a conversation topic...
19:07:19 <Sgeo> I think everyone knows what I would suggest..
19:07:41 <oklopol> teaching combinatorics to my ex :D
19:07:57 <oklopol> what a great way to train for the listening comprehension in german tomorrow...
19:08:03 <SimonRC> Any idea what the "other side" of vore is?
19:08:09 <Sgeo> vore?
19:08:22 <SimonRC> Sgeo: actually, probably best not to look it up
19:08:39 <SimonRC> "vorarephilia"
19:09:04 <SimonRC> you should be able to decompose that into its roots
19:14:20 <bsmntbombdood> if vore is eating, the other side is exreteting?
19:14:45 <bsmntbombdood> *excreting
19:15:02 <SimonRC> no
19:15:16 <SimonRC> I mean, vore is being eaten
19:15:17 <oerjan> personally i think people who butcher latin grammar like that deserve to be eaten alive :D
19:15:35 <SimonRC> oerjan: unless they enjoy that sort of thing
19:16:15 * oerjan notes joke strangely passing straight over SimonRC's head
19:16:15 <bsmntbombdood> i don't get it
19:16:39 <SimonRC> no, I caught it
19:30:41 <Sgeo> Does PSOX need anything more, other than the builtin domains?
19:32:21 <SimonRC> diiiiiiiner!
19:37:01 <pikhq> Just domains and functions, as far as I can tell.
19:37:18 <Sgeo> Should I remove RStrings?
19:39:39 <Sgeo> They seem redundant..
19:39:44 * Sgeo pokes pikhq 
19:44:34 * pikhq is poked
19:44:39 <pikhq> How are they redundant?
19:44:57 <Sgeo> Longstrings could be used instead. What esolang would want to send RStrings?
19:54:16 <Sgeo> Any response?
19:59:28 <pikhq> Good point.
20:03:32 <Sgeo> hmm...
20:03:47 <Sgeo> For File I/O, I only need to really provide one unsafe function: Change Current Directory
20:03:57 <Sgeo> There would be a safe version and an unsafe version..
20:04:22 <Sgeo> and other file stuff needs to be in the current working directory
20:04:37 <Sgeo> actually, you'd set a directory to a number 0-255
20:04:52 <Sgeo> and the file stuff would refer to that number to work in that directory..
20:07:47 <Sgeo> hm, but a user giving permission to change directory to ~ just gave it permission to do ANYTHING..
20:07:48 <Sgeo> :(
20:08:56 <Sgeo> So scrap that idea
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20:29:56 <nooga> eat tiles
20:30:09 <Sgeo> eh?
20:31:03 <nooga> they're tasty and healthy
20:32:25 <oklopol> TILES!
20:33:35 <nooga> those from bathroom
20:35:46 <oklopol> PEE on my TILES!
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20:51:41 <Sgeo> Hi importantshock
20:51:57 <importantshock> hey Sgeo, what's going on?
20:52:14 * Sgeo thinks the core of PSOX is almost finished
20:52:47 <Sgeo> you?
20:57:19 <importantshock> hating Python web development
20:57:26 <Sgeo> hm?
20:59:37 <importantshock> there is little to no documentation for anything, all the libraries are changing around daily, the Django guys are total wankers, and meanwhile Ruby and Rails are kicking our ass more and more every day
21:00:05 <Sgeo> Aren't there stable versions of Django?
21:00:42 <importantshock> yes, but Django comes with a lot of things i don't like
21:00:56 <importantshock> their ORM sucks compared to SQLAlchemy
21:01:10 <Sgeo> TurboGears?
21:01:39 <ehird`> python web development is trivial
21:01:54 <ehird`> ruby on rails does not kick python web lib's asses because it is fundamentally wrong
21:02:03 <ehird`> django guys are indeed total wankers, as are turbogears and web.py
21:02:10 <importantshock> SQLAlchemy, on the other hand, scares off almost everybody with its hideously verbose table declarations
21:02:12 <ehird`> sqlalchemy is kinda lame imo
21:02:17 <importantshock> Pylons is great
21:02:20 <ehird`> Paste and CherryPy are quite nice
21:02:23 <ehird`> i don't like pylons that much
21:02:40 <importantshock> pylons seems to fit my mental model, it's simply a matter of personal preference
21:02:42 <ehird`> personally i use my tiny little wrapper around raw wsgi
21:02:50 <importantshock> but SQLAlchemy 0.4 doesn't play nice with ANYTHING AT ALL.
21:02:53 <ehird`> which right now is just an extremely short object publisher
21:03:00 <ehird`> but i'm going to add sessions of some sort sometiime
21:03:21 <ehird`> i run multiple sites by writing a very small (50 line) raw-wsgi script which forwards requests to different apps
21:03:26 <ehird`> it all works beautifully along with fastcgi
21:03:35 <importantshock> Elixir, an awesome declarative layer on top of SQLAlchemy, got fucked by SA's multiple changes
21:03:37 <ehird`> oh, yeah, and i'm still mulling over templating languages
21:03:46 <ehird`> i'll probably write my own
21:03:48 <importantshock> ehird`: i like Mako
21:04:20 <ehird`> mako looks quite nice, but i want something all python
21:04:28 <ehird`> i'll make an example of my current syntax idea..
21:04:48 * Sgeo doesn't get what's wrong with Django..
21:05:02 <ehird`> Sgeo: its bloated, its not pythonic, it sucks
21:05:31 <importantshock> Sgeo: They keep reinventing wheels other people have perfected
21:06:52 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/private/7x9wtnmmizbnlupczinznw
21:07:06 <ehird`> ^ example of my current in-my-head syntax for the ideal templating language
21:07:27 <jix> sucks!
21:07:28 <ehird`> you'll notice that [[ ... ]] is statements and {{ ... }} expressions
21:07:35 * jix clicks on that url
21:07:47 <ehird`> and the def blocks are naturally handled because :-ending lines add 1 to indentation in the compiled output, etc. - it's not hardcoded
21:08:03 <ehird`> so you could do [[ with x: ]] ... [[ end with ]] or any of those syntaxes ending with :
21:08:07 <ehird`> and starting an indented block
21:08:07 <importantshock> ehird`: i saw a new templating language that sort of looks like that
21:08:11 <importantshock> can't remember which one though
21:08:17 <ehird`> importantshock: jinja?
21:08:26 <ehird`> importantshock: if so, yeah but it doesn't use python =/
21:08:33 <ehird`> all the templating engines are really overengineered
21:08:38 <importantshock> ehird`: yeah, jinja
21:08:40 <ehird`> implementing the one in my paste would be very trivial
21:11:23 <importantshock> ehird`: on the bright side there are so many templating engines that there's probably at least one that fits your zen
21:11:30 <importantshock> unless you want to implement it
21:12:41 <ehird`> yeah i've searched but i can't find one
21:12:47 <ehird`> i guess i will just implement my syntax there
21:14:05 <ehird`> on a web note
21:14:15 <ehird`> does anyone know some sort of basic fastcgi server i can just do:
21:14:35 <ehird`> "server my-fastcgi-file.fcgi" and it'll spawn it and also run a minimal development-oriented webserver with that?
21:14:39 <ehird`> itd make testing a dream
21:16:32 <ehird`> (related note on the templating language: {{var}} is escaped by default, {{func(var)}} isn't - i'll have to think about how i'm going to do that)
21:18:26 <importantshock> Gah, it seems like for SQLAlchemy 0.4 everyone just sat down and said "how can we make our library more obtuse, indirect, and difficult to learn?"
21:19:51 <ehird`> importantshock: perhaps espy's orm will suit you
21:19:56 <ehird`> its an orm without the orm
21:20:10 <Sgeo> orm?
21:20:19 <ehird`> conn.select('*', from='table', limit=3)
21:20:28 <ehird`> i haven't decided on "where" yet but probably:
21:20:55 <importantshock> i like SA's query syntax
21:20:55 <ehird`> conn.select('*', from='table', limit=3, where=F('field') > 3)
21:21:03 <importantshock> filter_by() is good
21:21:05 <ehird`> F, of course, being a placeholder class
21:21:08 <importantshock> just getting it to WORK pisses me off
21:21:21 <ehird`> conn.select('*', from='table', limit=3, where=(F('field') > 3) and (F('anotherfield') == 'a'))
21:26:12 <ehird`> maybe even:
21:26:43 <ehird`> conn.select('*', from=User, limit=3, where=User.field > 3 and User.anotherfield == 'a')
21:27:26 <ehird`> importantshock: does that look good? :)
21:27:59 <jix> it doesn't imho
21:28:05 <importantshock> why the *?
21:28:22 <importantshock> seems too SQL-ish to me
21:28:26 <importantshock> personally
21:28:37 <importantshock> i like my queries executable from class objects
21:28:37 <Sgeo> What's wrong with Django's way?
21:28:39 <ehird`> ok, how about conn.select(ALL, ...) or similar
21:29:02 <ehird`> the thing about queries from class objects is that from an OOP point of view they don't make a lot of sense
21:29:12 <importantshock> User.select_by(field=whatever...)
21:29:14 <ehird`> you are performing the query on the database connection, and you want instances as a /result/
21:30:43 <ehird`> so yeah.
21:30:54 <importantshock> i see what you're saying, but still
21:31:02 <importantshock> i feel an ORM should hide details of database connections
21:31:45 <importantshock> and from a purely aesthetic point of view, class queries are more readable
21:31:50 <ehird`> it does hide it quite well
21:32:00 <ehird`> but a database connection is still a tangible thing
21:32:07 <ehird`> and it's a thing that you perform operations on -- like selecting
21:32:23 <ehird`> you don't "perform" a select on the type of all users...
21:32:32 <ehird`> you "perform" a select on the database connection to get some users
21:34:36 <nooga> what django?
21:34:40 <nooga> where django?
21:34:44 <nooga> who codes django
21:34:46 <nooga> ? :D
21:38:06 <jix> i want the database connection to be hidden
21:38:18 <jix> i have users and don't want to care about what connection i use to access them
21:38:35 <jix> and if i want to get something about users i want to use the users class
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22:11:17 * Sgeo should work on the domains now
22:11:46 <Sgeo> Hm, simple utils should have the printy stuff, math, and a rng
22:12:43 <Sgeo> Anything else?
22:15:31 <Sgeo> pikhq, with the simple math stuff, what should happen with overflows in single-byte mode?
22:15:58 <pikhq> Sgeo: Wrap.
22:18:21 * nooga have just hacked some community portal written by swedes ;D
22:19:14 <oerjan> shooting fish in a barrel does not count as "hacking"
22:20:37 <Sgeo> pikhq, what about div. by zero?
22:21:31 <pikhq> Hmm.
22:21:49 <nooga> no no, really, through blind sql injection
22:21:53 <bsmntbombdood> infinity!
22:22:09 <pikhq> Well, you could either follow the behavior of Brainfuck, error out, or return some meaningless value.
22:22:52 <oerjan> indeed, what _does_ brainfuck do on division by zero again ;D
22:23:11 <Sgeo> Would a status code be ok?
22:23:12 <nooga> enters while(1){}
22:23:13 <nooga> :D
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22:23:23 <fizzie> Do the Befunge thing: ask the user.
22:23:26 <Sgeo> Even though the other single-byte maths don't have error codes?
22:23:27 <pikhq> The typical Brainfuck division algorithm does an infinite loop on divide by zero. . .
22:23:31 <pikhq> . . . Right.
22:23:37 <pikhq> Sgeo: Return 0?
22:23:49 <pikhq> Halt?
22:23:50 <nooga> return 0 and warning
22:23:57 <Sgeo> Would status codes be too difficult?
22:24:02 <Sgeo> They could always be discarded..
22:24:10 <Sgeo> Would 0x01 be error, or 0x00?
22:24:20 <nooga> i wonder how bdsm does it
22:24:32 <nooga> !sadol !/10
22:24:35 <EgoBot> BDSM: Double division '/' by 0 (index: 1, row: 1, col: 2)
22:24:44 <nooga> wha?
22:25:44 * Sgeo pokes pikhq 
22:26:01 <Sgeo> and should I add overflow/underflow status to the single-byte operations?
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22:34:34 <pikhq> Command to get error status?
22:34:41 <pikhq> (overflow, underflow, divide by 0)
22:38:09 <Sgeo> Why add a command?
22:38:55 <Sgeo> Isn't it easier to discard status that's in front of the resu;t?
22:41:41 * Sgeo pokes pikhq 
22:42:43 <ehird`> division by zero = infinity ;)
22:45:04 <Sgeo> Well, I should get going now
22:46:46 <Sgeo> Please note the new http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt and http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-utils.txt
22:46:57 <Sgeo> Bye all
22:47:08 <Sgeo> The psox-utils.txt isn't finished, ofc
22:47:18 <Sgeo> I will work on that tomorrow or, if I'm lucky, later today
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23:40:13 <Rodger-Labs> aw, man- these lab machines have a terrible IRC client. <:/
23:40:38 <Rodger-Labs> what's up, everyone?
23:41:18 <oerjan> not much for the last hour
23:41:45 <oerjan> Sgeo is working on his PSOX
23:42:50 <Rodger-Labs> cool.
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