00:03:42 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:03:51 Hi all 00:04:04 hi 00:05:23 * Sgeo goes to put newlines in the spec 00:05:55 auto-fill-region 00:06:09 hm? 00:16:19 -!- importantshock has quit (Connection timed out). 00:40:09 This media type 00:40:09 UST NOT be used unless the sender knows that the recipient can arse 00:40:09 it; 00:40:32 (was trying to put quotes in, but indeed, mirc sucks.) 00:45:36 the more i read the rfc, the more i feel i was right, this is pretty horrible 00:53:46 i hate everything when i'm this tired, but god those rfc's... i could just strangle and rip them 00:54:18 What RFC is this? 00:57:53 http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2616.html 00:58:26 there's a fun paragraph full of typoes :) 01:01:43 okay... i've now seen both the alternative forms "nescesarry" and "nessicary" for "necessary" :P 01:02:03 guess that's a hard word to type 01:05:26 Typos can make an incredible difference.. "referer" 01:07:02 how come? 01:07:25 i mean, what did "referer" mean 01:08:10 The HTTP header "referer" is called "referer" and not "referrer" due to a typo 01:08:29 ARGH! 01:08:43 should the Print NUL function end with 0x0A? 01:08:52 Like every other function in PSOX will? 01:12:24 i thought "referer" was just the american version of "referrer" 01:12:42 that's prolly what other misspellers think, so that's no excuse for not knowing that 01:13:46 * Sgeo reconsiders.. not sure if it was a typo or spelling error.. 01:14:47 most likely a spelling error 01:15:26 it's possible a lot of people don't know something like that, but not that probably they wouldn't see the lack of an "r" when used that for a while... 01:16:41 it's not *impossible* they've just typoed it a 100 times, but it's not very probable either 01:17:24 "Referer is a common misspelling of the word referrer. It is so common, in fact, that it made it into the official specification of HTTP ā€“ the communication protocol of the World Wide Web ā€“ and has therefore become the standard industry spelling when discussing HTTP referers." 01:17:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_Referer 01:17:49 yeah, read that 01:18:48 The problem is that the RFC bureaucracy does not include a bureau of proofreading. ;) 01:19:08 lol 01:19:23 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 01:19:27 argh, the only way to really demonstrate the newline thing is with an example, methinks 01:22:53 "you know i negotiated my way through negotiator training, i should've failed the hell out of that class, that's how good i am" 01:51:25 Is this sane? 01:51:27 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-newline-demo.b 01:53:08 * Sgeo needs to leave at 10PM EST 01:56:04 * Sgeo pokes pikhq 01:57:22 * Sgeo urgently pokes pikhq and SimonRC and anyone else 01:57:42 minminor.... 01:58:07 minimum minor version the client (the BF code) will work with 02:00:03 is that cat? 02:00:28 yes 02:00:56 Works correctly with nulls; 0x00 0x02 0x00 is the "safe print character" function 02:01:02 quite a lot of overhead, i hope its other functionality makes it worth it :) 02:01:40 it's quite long... you could at least have a "safe print characterS" function as well 02:01:53 ..how would that work? 02:02:23 {n} 02:02:53 basically, just that you could implicitly prefix that 000200 for the next n characters 02:03:39 i mean, just would be nice if you didn't have to do 4 times more outputs than you are actually using, if you're piping large amounts of data 02:05:19 * pikhq is poked 02:05:27 Sgeo: I assume you have a spec working? 02:05:55 A demo of how I think newlines could be handled, and the newline thing hastily added to the spec 02:06:17 Err. Implementation? 02:06:26 No implementation yet. 02:06:42 A tutorial on how to get pipes working with Python would be nice 02:08:40 * Sgeo puts oklopol's idea into http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-output.txt 02:09:35 Would there be call for a function that could take an amount of bytes to safeprint larger than 255? 02:09:46 Can't hurt 02:10:43 :) 02:10:56 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-output.txt 02:11:00 Hi CakeProphet 02:12:04 Is my way of handling the newline issue sane? 02:12:09 * Sgeo wonders if GregorR is here 02:19:12 * Sgeo pokes 02:25:30 ...what? 02:25:32 -checks- 02:26:22 what newline issue? 02:26:25 * CakeProphet wasn't paying attention 02:28:43 -!- unbewont has changed nick to g4lt-mordant. 02:29:22 Some interpreters might not show output until a newline is output 02:29:37 and they might not receive input until a newline is put in 02:29:46 * Sgeo pokes CakeProphet 02:51:21 CHOROFLAM 02:53:08 hm? 02:53:18 GregorR, did you see how I handled the newline situation? 02:53:26 does this rag smell like chloroform to you? 02:58:11 G'night all ;( 02:58:19 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 02:59:00 Choroflam = http://www.codu.org/choroflam/ 02:59:08 ...does anyone here play starcraft? 03:00:11 GregorR: include a string-plucking algorithm 03:00:17 otherwise, fail 03:14:10 ...anyone? 03:36:17 bsmntbombdood: ... It's not a stringed instrument. 03:36:45 ok, reed-blowing algorithm? 03:37:17 because plain sawtooth just sounds bad 03:44:48 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:15:22 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 05:44:08 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:26:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:44:41 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 08:45:12 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:23:44 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 10:12:02 -!- ehird` has joined. 10:37:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Man who stand in frond of car is tired. Man who stand behind car is exhausted."). 10:52:32 * ehird` wonders what to add to KajirBot 11:28:21 porn is a safe choise 11:29:59 beepiano owns choroflam 11:30:17 and sawtooth sounds awesome 11:30:24 naturally 11:31:00 but for maximum comfort, i'd go for square 11:31:36 how about a dictionary. 11:31:37 XD 11:31:43 well that too :) 11:32:03 what was kajirbot in again? 11:32:34 ? 11:32:35 #esoteric. 11:32:49 language, i mean 11:32:58 python 11:33:03 clean, simple, nice python 11:33:04 -!- KajirBot has joined. 11:33:25 it's an incredibly simple yet powerful irc bot/client lib - kajirc, and the bot based on it - KajirBot 11:33:35 kajirc is built to fit KajirBot, not the other way round 11:34:00 kajirbot right now is 124 lines, including whitespace, comments etc, and kajirc is 139 11:34:02 .help 11:34:02 feed, help, kill, ps, q, tell, time 11:34:27 it has a command system and a regexp matcher, both using threaded callbacks 11:34:59 ololobot is 49 line 11:35:01 *lines 11:35:12 ah 11:35:36 the actual ololobot file would prolly be similar to yourkajirc 11:35:41 *your kajirc 11:35:50 kajirc and kajirbot are pretty intertwined 11:36:05 actually, kajirc is just one class 11:36:08 kajirc.Bot 11:36:12 that's it 11:36:27 it gives a pythonic irc interface, and the callback system 11:36:39 def time(self, info): 11:36:39 self.privmsg(info['channel'], 'Right now, it is %s GMT' % 11:36:39 time.strftime('%Y-%m-%d, %H:%M')) 11:36:42 that's an example callback. 11:36:55 "command" callbacks (PREFIXname arg ...) get info as the first param 11:37:03 which has channel, user, etc 11:38:07 http://pastie.textmate.org/private/n2vsy1uxvpg6ppfz9t <-- this is kajirbot 11:38:25 as you can see, kajirc does a lot of heavy lifting to make kajirc.Bot-derived classes look very natural 11:38:58 False as the third entry in a command tuple means "optional", btw 11:39:57 optional arguments that are omitted are None 11:40:02 thus: 11:40:14 def help(self, info, command): 11:40:15 if command: 11:40:15 ... 11:40:15 else: 11:40:32 ', '.join(x for x in cmds) wait what 11:40:36 that can just be ', '.join(cmds) 11:41:27 .q hello 11:41:28 hello? 11:41:35 .q You are KajirBot. You are clever. 11:41:35 I am KajirBot. I am clever? 11:41:43 .q You are KajirBot. If this is true, say hello. 11:41:43 I am KajirBot. If this is true, say hello? 11:42:17 .help 11:42:17 feed, help, kill, ps, q, tell, time 11:42:32 .help time 11:42:32 time 11:42:32 Displays the current date and time. 11:48:27 what should i add :) 11:48:52 ', '.join(x for x in cmds) <<< wondered this as well 11:49:28 hmm... 11:51:58 i should make my multi-key dictionary support string substitutions... 11:56:08 -!- Tritonio__ has joined. 11:56:52 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:01:39 soooo what should i add =) 13:38:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:42:23 -!- Tritonio__ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:43:05 -!- jix has joined. 13:53:24 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:12:55 -!- RedDak has joined. 14:22:48 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:35:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:26:14 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:04:50 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 17:58:04 -!- Haikz has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:05:17 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:24:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:40:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:38:06 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 20:40:52 ping 20:41:08 u 20:41:17 f 20:41:51 -!- ihope has joined. 20:47:58 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:50:07 o 20:51:02 o? 20:51:15 (22:40:31) (oerjan) u 20:51:17 (22:40:39) (ehird`) f 20:51:20 (22:41:12) —› join: (ihope) (n=ihope@c-71-205-100-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) 20:51:22 (22:47:20) —› join: (Sgeo) (n=Sgeo@ool-18bf68ca.dyn.optonline.net) 20:51:24 (22:49:27) (oklopol) o 20:51:29 a. 20:51:30 BTB 20:51:31 BRB 20:51:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Client Quit). 20:51:41 beer-to-beer 20:51:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:51:55 but nobody seemed to catch on to _why_ i used u. 20:52:07 pingu the penguin? 20:52:15 yeah 20:52:24 ? 20:52:24 really? 20:52:34 really :) 20:52:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Dead socket). 20:52:44 thought it'd've been something deeper :) 20:52:47 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:52:55 Like equine! 20:53:17 "o" is a quine 20:53:18 (22:34:19) (+oklopol) o 20:53:18 (22:47:51) (tonkman) o 20:53:57 ihope, oklopol, did you see the specs updated with the newline issue? 20:54:22 oklopol: cool. 20:54:26 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox_newlines.txt 20:54:34 and http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-newline-demo.b 20:54:47 oerjan: hahahaha pingu 20:54:57 and ehird` and oerjan and everyone else 20:55:01 i was expecting something deeper, i admit 20:55:53 i am afraid i don't recall a lot of deep things starting with "ping" :) 20:56:28 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 21:01:20 oerjan: there are jokes aside from catenation ones :) 21:01:36 though catenation jokes *are* definately the funniers 21:01:39 *finniest 21:01:44 *funniest 21:01:45 * Sgeo doesn't have a lot of time today 21:01:45 ... 21:01:50 Catenation? 21:01:53 con- 21:02:02 Yeah, what ever happened to that... 21:02:11 i don't use it 21:02:23 everyone knows what i mean from catenation 21:02:26 even you :) 21:02:32 Indeed. 21:02:37 It's turning into a word! Oh no! 21:02:42 heh 21:02:50 i'll try to use con- from now on 21:03:00 Nothing wrong with calling it catenation. 21:03:15 apropos finniest, is the most proper way to refer to persons from finland "finn" or "finnish"? 21:03:17 Unless people give you a hard time about it, of course. Unlike me. I would never do that. :-P 21:03:30 there's nothing wrong with your MOTHER 21:03:53 Before you know it we'll be talking of op systems, then opsystems, then ostems or something. 21:03:55 Ok, unsafe functionality in PSOX: Things like opening files 21:04:00 oerjan: use the native word 21:04:12 Should a PSOX client have to declare that it wants to use such functionality at the beginning? 21:04:19 in english? 21:04:32 well, yes, that's what i meant 21:04:35 I could have it declare that it might want to request functionality while the program runs.. 21:04:41 Any thoughts? 21:04:58 Operating system, oper system, op system, opsystem, opstem, ostem? 21:04:58 making a follow-up question is dangerous, though, since you might actually think i was serious 21:05:09 -> o. 21:05:25 did you know it's already gone shorter than ostem? 21:05:30 OS. 21:05:32 i hear them saying "os"... 21:06:03 Sgeo: why should it tell it's gonna need files? 21:06:21 So that it can't access things without the user's permission 21:06:32 if it does have to do that, then i guess you could make mandatory declares for using any function 21:06:42 "There are three one-letter words in English. One is 'I', a subject pronoun referring to the speaker. One is 'a', an article referring to an inspecific item. One is 'o', a noun referring to a set of software running on a computer that facilitates the running of programs." 21:06:45 *any unsafe function 21:06:59 because you prolly want the same interface for files and, say, printing complex number 21:07:01 *numers 21:07:06 *numbers 21:07:15 The specs for each domain note whether a function is safe or unsafe 21:07:19 ihope: :D 21:07:27 Sgeo: er, program permissions? 21:07:32 ihope, hm? 21:07:40 should I force such declarations to be in the beginning? 21:07:54 to avoid runtime-errors, or why? 21:07:58 I mean, your ordinary everyday programming language doesn't either ask the user or not before doing something, does it? 21:07:59 (Incidentally, declarations will be flexible, prespecifiying arguments and indicating this to the user) 21:08:20 It does it, and returns some special thing if something bad happened. 21:08:24 * Sgeo doesn't like the thought of Brainf*ck viruses too much 21:08:39 ihope, "if something bad happened"? 21:08:48 Er, if it didn't work. 21:09:15 The first byte returned by any unsafe function will be a status byte 21:11:13 Should I allow declarations in the middle of the program? 21:11:34 i voted for "no declarations", so hard to answer :P 21:12:25 ihope: WTF did you get the "I, a, o" thing from? 21:12:29 o != 0 21:12:56 Operating system, oper system, op system, opsystem, opstem, ostem? 21:13:00 -> o. 21:13:51 If there's no declarations, then the user would have to agree/disagree as it occurs 21:14:40 Unless domains with unsafe functions are carefully designed.. 21:14:54 well yeah, you should have optional declarations 21:15:14 but the problem is, the user will have to agree anyway 21:15:36 ah, so I see 21:15:47 you can't know whether the program asks for permissions without running it 21:15:48 Thing is, the client will call the declaration function with a list of arguments that it will give the unsafe function 21:16:05 It can say "ask the user if it's ok to call this function as long as these arguments are filled like this" 21:16:42 BF viruses would be impossible with a good ostem :-P 21:17:30 And of course, the PSOX server can be run with a --safe function 21:23:00 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 21:24:22 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 21:27:39 * Sgeo pokes 21:29:57 Time to start writing the safety specs? 21:30:10 * Sgeo will remove the bit about safety stuff needing to be first 21:43:52 brainfuck viruses = loller 21:43:59 that would be hilarious 21:44:06 fucks your brain, then your hard drive 21:44:13 lol 21:44:33 Incidentally, all usages of Unsafe functions will be recorded in a Safety Log 21:45:03 i htink you are overengineering psox 21:45:07 ?? 21:46:10 How is it possible to overengineer something? 21:47:03 easy 21:47:19 Well, as a first step I would recommend getting a committee of mixed civilian contractors and military personelle... 21:48:07 make sure they all want to make their mark on it, but have no sense of elgance 21:48:24 ... then split them into those two subcomittees, and have them play ping-pong with the spec, each making it bigger then passing it to the other 21:48:41 s/spec/requirements/ 21:49:09 then get a load of idiots who do not know of each others' existance to turn the requirements into a design... 21:49:33 be su never to chuck anything out, and to favour fundamental complexity over superficial complexity... 21:49:53 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("haaaaaaaaaa"). 21:50:32 every time something is getting tricky, add another layer ora new abstraction, rater than expanding existing ones... 21:50:47 finally, take the resulting 2,000-page document and there you have it, and over-engineered product 21:52:26 hopefully something like the Universal Calculator (from the OMGWTF). 21:55:01 that's not what i would call overengineering 21:55:15 it's what i would 21:55:27 overengineering would be designing the bridge to hold 1000 times its working load instead of 10 21:55:32 no 21:55:41 How is what I was doing overengineering? 21:55:44 overengineering is designing something to be much more convoluted than it needs to be 21:55:49 see: Common Lisp, as a prime example 21:55:54 PL/I 21:55:56 PSOX does this, imo 21:56:16 Maybe with the versioning thing.. 21:56:22 Actually, overengineering is rather rare in esolangss 21:56:36 they tend to be small and useless, rather than gigantic and useless 21:56:46 PSOX isn't an esolang >.> 21:57:24 one might call it a minilanguage? 21:57:29 and it is esoteric and computery 21:57:35 PSOX is an over-engineered interface that esolangs can use 21:57:36 IMO 21:57:44 an API is certianly relate to a language 21:57:46 its just... Safety Log where all "unsafe" ops are logged? WTF? 21:58:02 how about erasing the safety log? 21:58:09 its the little things like that 21:58:14 Is the safety log too much? 21:58:14 they all add up and spell "wtf" to me 21:58:29 * Sgeo would have thought that, if anything, the version stuff adds too much overhead 21:58:36 Sgeo: IMO yes. I mean, try and emulate C i guess in these interfaces - simple and dirty. It'll fit esolangs better imo 21:59:12 No safety stuff, or just no Log? 21:59:25 I dunno, I'm not completely prepped up on PSOX 21:59:41 But from what I've heard, things like safety stuff is quite unneeded in an esolang API imo 21:59:53 not to say i don't think psox is not a great idea - it is ;) 21:59:55 *:) 22:00:03 what's PSOx's purpose? 22:00:17 bsmntbombdood: API for esolangs to use the outside world 22:00:25 bsmntbombdood: POSIX-function like stuff 22:01:04 Of course, the removal of safety thingies means the possibility of... *shudders* Brainfuck malware 22:01:45 Sgeo: seriously who cares 22:01:53 Sgeo: writing malware is very hard on unixy systems 22:02:06 Sgeo: and on windows, heck, who on windows uses BF and is not using an AV etc? 22:02:07 This will probably run on Windows too, you know.. 22:02:13 well... 22:02:22 Unix is very powerful... 22:02:51 SimonRC: there is a handful of unix malware 22:03:03 SimonRC: its not likely using BF would suddenly show the amazing simplicity of writing malware. 22:03:10 heh 22:03:41 ehird`, would AV stuff really care about BF programs? SHould I force them too like this? 22:03:51 Sgeo: AV stuff works based on processes. 22:04:04 Sgeo: seriously, wtf, this is an api not training wheels for windows users ;) 22:04:11 Also, it's difficult to read through a BF program to make sure it's not doing anything bad, like erasing every file in the user's home directory.. 22:04:19 so why are you doing that 22:06:15 hm? 22:12:44 that's why you don't execute untrusted code 22:13:31 ... with full permissions 22:14:04 wrt File I/O, I guess I could force it to run in the current directory.. 22:14:43 no, you just use your existing filesystem permissions 22:15:32 yes, because who cares about losing ~? 22:16:19 point taken 22:16:27 unix file permissions are a bit sucky 22:16:36 there needs to be something more fine-grained 22:17:22 My idea was to have the client ask for permission for any usafe function, and it can ask for permission for calling unsafe functions with prefilled arguments 22:17:43 e.g. to ask the user if it can always open a file named "myfile.txt" 22:17:51 ok 22:17:55 good 22:18:09 a great thing to do in the middle of your curses work... 22:18:19 curses work? 22:18:48 yeah, curses 22:19:03 as in curses(3) 22:19:20 It can ask for permissions before doing whatever, if it wants 22:19:40 um 22:19:56 but if you have uestions poopping up that might muck up the screen output 22:20:00 it can ask for permissions before it does curses'y stuff 22:20:10 -!- RedDak has joined. 22:20:13 Hi RedDak 22:29:16 Bye for now all. Any comments to the effect of "no safety" will be taken onboard, and thrown over the side. 22:29:55 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 22:35:45 magic image resizing 22:35:47 oh, wow, this is so cool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIFCV2spKtg 22:36:00 yep 22:49:42 what hsould i add to kajirbot/ 22:50:17 a cybersex attachment 22:50:31 it should only do really esoteric cybersex though 22:50:47 i see. 22:50:55 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 22:51:01 nothing normal, but lots of furry, roleplay, and bizare situations 22:51:13 or bazzar situations even 22:51:24 yes! 22:51:39 you can do it by modifying an existing chatting module, I am sure 22:51:40 how about no 22:51:40 :p 22:52:34 http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2007/09/kids-are-just-excuse-you-are-target.html 22:58:16 umm 22:58:32 did i misunderstand something, or is <21 child porn in the us? 22:58:39 <18 is 22:59:16 and it doesn't even have to be nude to be cp 22:59:26 "It was long after that they were arguing that some 17-year-olds look 18 so the limit should be raised to 21.", "One result of this new age limit is that some erotica, that was previously legal, became illegal quite literally over night." 22:59:28 became 22:59:51 hrm 23:00:12 can't be 23:01:05 maybe he's talking about the new changes 23:02:50 "If a photographer takes erotic photos he must have forms filled out and filed regarding each model." is this currently true? 23:03:15 yes 23:05:47 kay... i should make a list of the ways i would be a criminal in in the us 23:05:51 i think the relevent age should be in here: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/110/toc.html 23:05:54 but i can't find it 23:06:23 if the age for cp was raised to 21, at least half the US would be outlaws 23:06:56 yeah, men 23:07:19 (bad joke, sorry) 23:07:41 better raise that to 75% (all the men, half the women) 23:08:17 hmm 23:08:37 i just googled for child porn, without realizing it :) 23:08:42 ? 23:08:50 was looking for the hungarian ...whuz the word 23:08:53 party 23:09:08 what are the laws in .fi? 23:09:31 <18 illegal 23:09:43 what though? 23:09:57 hmm... don't know the spesifics 23:10:04 no one cares really 23:10:09 i mean 23:10:23 there's not much control... 23:10:28 no one has checked my hd at least 23:10:38 i guess that wouldn't happen anywhere 23:11:08 i guess it's nudity that triggers it 23:12:09 http://english.pravda.ru/news/world/19-02-2007/87572-porn-0 23:12:13 this i mean 23:12:32 i never understood these laws, at least 100% of 13-year-olds are having sex anyway 23:13:03 lol 23:13:27 i may have been a bit excessive there 23:18:00 -!- RedDak has quit ("I'm quitting... Bye all"). 23:29:47 still 6 hours till school... better go buy something to keep me awake 23:29:47 -> 23:30:15 or you could sleep 23:30:34 well 23:30:44 theoretically 23:31:09 but i prefer being awake when i'm home and asleep when i'm at school 23:32:02 did you know your ip address is owned by Kari Ylenius? 23:33:51 oklopol: do your isp log stuff at all? 23:33:58 they probably have an alert set for 'child porn' :p 23:34:10 darn, i realized i don't have any money 23:34:24 ehird`: i doubt they do, but that's exactly what i was thinking :) 23:34:47