00:03:21 -!- GregorR has changed nick to noteventhyme. 00:13:34 -!- noteventhyme has changed nick to GregorR. 00:15:26 You know, Mussolini made the trains run on thyme. 00:37:30 -!- sebbu has quit ("Leaving"). 00:40:15 pikhq: that is like, so last week 00:41:26 * SimonRC ges to bed 00:52:45 last century 00:52:58 Huzzah. 01:43:56 -!- ihope has joined. 02:50:35 -!- cosmic_string has joined. 02:56:28 -!- jix_ has quit ("CommandQ"). 03:03:58 Why doesen't Programming Python explain all of Python's syntax? 03:04:28 Is it meant for beginners who already know the language? 03:06:04 Maybe the Nutshell series is more for me. Java in a Nutshell was a great book (and I still refer to it). It goes first through the syntax for doing all the things most programming languages have, then it goes over OOP, then over common idioms, and lastly over the standard library (and then has a huge reference on the library). 03:09:34 books are for wimps 03:09:37 just read the spec 03:09:50 oh wait, python doesn't have a specc 03:10:04 ;D 03:10:18 I generally want a spec and the common idioms, yes. 03:10:28 And examples. 03:11:33 or you could just read http://docs.python.org/tut/tut.html, then http://docs.python.org/lib/lib.html and http://docs.python.org/ref/ref.html 03:11:47 Dead trees are nice. 03:14:14 well, the second link is a nice reference once you're done with your dead trees 03:14:32 Sure then. 03:21:26 i wonder if tar archives are random access 03:21:34 They aren't. 03:22:04 i figured 03:22:10 that nasty "tape" thing 03:28:40 Oh yeah, tape archive. 03:28:44 Come up with a new tar! 03:28:52 A... um, non-tape archive. Call it nar. 03:28:59 dar? 03:29:03 rar, random access archive? 03:29:15 dar and rar already exist, heh 03:29:17 Call it Zip++. 03:29:31 ...Are rar and dar uncompressed multi-file things? 03:29:42 No, they're *compressed* multi-file things. 03:29:58 is gz random access? 03:30:05 *No*. 03:30:19 Well, tar isn't ever compressed, is it? 03:30:27 Tar itself is uncompressed. 03:30:28 tar -z 03:30:36 Your mom is never compressed either. 03:30:41 bsmntbombdood: That pipes tar through gzip. 03:30:46 i know 03:30:56 and tar -j pipes it through bzip2 03:30:57 And how many people have created single-file compression algorithms called "feather" so far? 03:31:10 Sukoshi: That's stupid enough when testosterone-driven guys do it. 03:31:22 Such a bad pun it must have been done hundreds of times! 03:31:29 pikhq: That's the reason behind me saying it ;) 03:31:39 The point is to use the jokes when it's so stupid, it's pathetically funny. 03:31:43 it stops being ironic the second time 03:31:45 it's not funny 03:31:58 And, of course, the estrogen-driven female bit makes it even more stupid. 03:32:07 actually i compressed his mom just last night 03:32:21 you made her wear a corset? 03:32:34 A) Corset B) ??? C) Profit 03:32:35 It overflows once on funny_t (unsigned long), so it's at funny level 0. 03:32:55 It's so funny it overflows a bignum! Wait, it doesn't; it's just not funny. 03:32:57 :-P 03:33:02 pikhq: things can be negative-funny 03:33:23 That just means they're really funny, bsmntbombdood. 03:33:40 You know, with the sign-bit on? 03:33:52 The signed versus unsigned stuff is a teeny bit stupid. 03:33:56 But not very. 03:34:03 (And by stupid, I mean silly.) 03:34:10 why? 03:34:20 Arithmetic is the same; it's just comparison and overflow checks that are different. 03:34:25 it would be stupid in a high level, strongly typed language 03:34:39 ihope: comparison is a big one. 03:34:44 Having different types for signed and unsigned would be stupid? 03:34:53 lament: you could use different comparison operators. 03:35:04 that's how forth does it 03:35:05 You could add a constant to both and then compare :-P 03:35:12 with doubles too 03:35:36 It has more than one of each comparison operator for doubles? 03:35:48 actually signed vs. unsigned IS a high-level feature 03:35:57 a truly low-level language, such as forth, doesn't have it 03:36:25 it has an operator that works on doubles for every math operator for singles 03:36:40 the point is, you're dealing with 2 completely different types - a subset of the naturals, and a subset of the integers 03:36:42 it has to be, because doubles take up two stack slots 03:37:01 the implementation happens to be very similar, but because C is high-level, it abstracts that and presents them as two different types. 03:37:05 while forth doesn't. 03:37:20 we have different definitions of high-level 03:37:28 Quite. 03:37:50 bsmntbombdood: won't you agree that "high-level" implies a higher degree of abstraction? 03:38:12 I wouldn't say the implementation "happens to be" very similar. There's a big mathematical reason for it. 03:38:12 higher-level 03:38:23 And caring about the *sign bit* sure as hell isn't high level. 03:38:25 ...or maybe I would. :-P 03:39:07 i guess i mean it would be stupid in a to-the-metal language 03:39:12 another example: C has strings, despite them being simply arrays of characters 03:39:19 but C abstracts the implementation 03:39:22 (badly) 03:39:27 the only reason C has signed and unsigned is so programmers can save a bit 03:39:31 it's a high-level feature 03:39:39 C doesn't have strings 03:39:43 the stdlib has strings 03:39:44 Funny, I thought that C did no abstraction on that. . . 05:50:12 -!- clog has joined. 05:50:12 -!- clog has joined. 06:14:58 i never learnded glass 06:15:08 Blasphemer. 06:15:12 * pikhq <3 Glass 06:16:04 blaspheme (plural blasphemes) 1. Things said against the Church or God. 06:16:39 Gregor is a diety in the Church of Esome. 06:17:05 -!- olsner has joined. 06:48:04 -!- cosmic_string has quit. 07:05:56 -!- cherez has quit ("Leaving."). 07:06:18 -!- Arrogant_ has joined. 07:08:12 -!- olsner has quit. 07:16:24 (lament) bsmntbombdood: when you see a[b] and b[a], you think the same thing? <<< if i see *(a+b) and *(b+a), i do not think about the same thing 07:28:39 -!- Arrogant has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 07:32:30 bsmntbombdood sure knows how to make a conversation out of nothing 07:32:39 what 07:33:39 you sure know how to press the buttons of these esolangists 07:33:49 i've seen it happen before 07:34:38 heh 07:34:43 and you mean esolinguist 07:35:19 well yes, i just like to make my words wrong 07:35:31 esolinguist does sound kinda nice 07:36:39 -!- olsner has joined. 07:54:17 -!- olsner has quit. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:04 Python's generators are just continuations, aren't they? 08:05:49 no 08:26:19 -!- Arrogant_ has quit ("Leaving"). 09:01:21 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:13:21 I'm starting to understand what Pythonic code is. 09:13:33 Coding in Python feels very Lispy indeed. 09:16:11 python is imperative 09:16:17 so, no 09:17:02 I forgot that you use Scheme functionally. 09:17:34 who doesn't use scheme functionally? 09:17:55 Me. 09:18:15 freak 09:18:21 Yus. I know. 09:18:49 i mean, i still use the ! functions 09:19:19 In general, I code imperatively, unless it's a small utility thing. 09:32:02 (define (sukoshi) "omg syntactic sugarz!") 09:36:59 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 10:35:10 night all 10:35:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Man who stand in frond of car is tired. Man who stand behind car is exhausted."). 10:47:25 -!- cherez has joined. 11:02:27 -!- ehird` has joined. 11:17:21 -!- jix_ has joined. 13:48:46 -!- RedDak has joined. 14:33:00 -!- ihope has joined. 14:34:46 Oh dear. 14:35:00 My client was repeatedly trying to connect to freenode with the nick %ihope. 14:35:06 ...which is invalid. 14:39:17 blahbot did it! 14:39:26 he is rebelling against the use of % as his command character 14:40:00 Get him in here and see if %ihope does anything. 14:40:28 okay 14:40:36 (Op me in #implang while you're at it, will you? :-P) 14:40:50 -!- blahbot` has joined. 14:41:13 %ihope 14:41:15 %cmds 14:41:16 quit, eval, ps, kill, cmds, help, reload, join, part, send, topic, raw, bf, parse, reduce, nc, wapr, rp (use %help for argument information) 14:41:17 naw 14:54:59 -!- RedDak has quit ("I'm quitting... Bye all"). 15:21:49 %quit 15:21:49 -!- blahbot` has quit. 15:21:52 :| 15:22:00 %comeback 15:22:05 %please 15:22:14 i have too much power 15:23:20 ok 15:23:23 restarting 15:23:32 -!- blahbot` has joined. 15:23:48 can i still ruin the party? 15:23:59 i guess i can if that was but a reboot 15:33:48 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 15:34:08 hi everyone 15:35:14 is that a 'hi' for everyone individually or a general 'hi'? 15:35:39 that's implementation-defined 15:36:49 i'm talking about this spesific case 15:37:31 as I said, implementation-defined- think of yourself as an interpreter (implementation), whereas my statement constitutes a program 15:39:09 i am a buggy implementation 15:39:12 you just offended me. 15:39:30 unfortunate 15:39:42 this is the problem with undefined behavior 15:41:23 my implementation does not guess if it's not sure, while i know i have a direct contact to the programmer in time of need 15:41:36 so, can you, the programmer, tell me what you meant? 15:42:08 I forgot to comment my code. <:/ 15:42:19 * RodgerTheGreat runs nm on his binaries 15:42:35 the greatest problem in undefined behavior is that you make fun of the compilers, i have to agree with that 15:44:01 well, It appears I make a call to NGenerateGroup_GrePi or something. 15:44:09 %@$! name-mangling 15:46:12 i am a nice compiler 15:46:17 i compiled that as 15:46:29 pushobj (hi->every)one $$ 15:46:42 which is saying hi to every, and only one every, and "fuck you" to everyone else and i am not every :( 15:47:06 clearly, I failed to write portable IRP 15:48:16 yes 15:48:19 you should write it as 15:48:45 $inline_bytecode [ pushobj everyone ] \hi% exit; 15:49:08 Looks like valid Tcl. 15:49:55 how about foreach x in(#Esoteric) [greet ->x;] ? 15:50:22 foreach isn't in the standard 15:50:24 How about: 15:50:29 Greet everyone in #esoteric 15:50:34 also, greet ->x; only works if your interpreter has the iso-morphism honorific rule 15:50:48 pikhq: everyone can still be parsed as (EXPR->every)one 15:51:09 pikhq: what if everyone is autoboxed into "everyone"? Then we run into the same problem as ehird`'s compiler 15:51:23 ah, wait, a less-hacky portable version can be done with the pattern-matching name feature 15:51:30 here's how: 15:52:03 for [ ] ->greet $ 15:52:24 hm 15:53:02 hmm 15:53:05 there's a shortcut for that 15:53:12 for$ ->greet 15:54:22 and as we all know 15:54:31 an unbounded-for with a method-accessor can be shortened 15:54:33 so, that's: 15:54:38 $->greet 15:54:51 and, since it's unambigious here, the full code is 15:54:57 $ greet 15:55:10 alright, so do all the test compilers here agree upon the acceptability of the new standard "$ greet"? 15:55:50 ooh, i forgot 15:55:54 you can make it shorter by one character 15:55:58 greet$ 15:56:10 using the operator-postfix-matching feature 15:56:28 and, since greet is the default entry method 15:56:32 it can simply be: 15:56:37 &$ 15:56:54 which is unambigiously equal to & 15:57:01 so, i suggest "&" as a replacement for "hi everyone" 15:57:54 ihope: ping 16:06:29 does this compile right to everyone? 16:15:53 ehird`: pong. 16:16:04 such a slow irp response. 16:16:47 welcome to the world of high-latency scripting 16:18:16 ehird`: that's what happens when your interpreter is out having breakfast. 16:19:06 :p 16:49:18 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:49:45 sebbu: do you speak French at all? 16:50:23 i'm french 16:50:34 it's my mother tongue 16:50:46 why ? 16:51:09 Well, there's this sort of experimental thing I... am doing, kind of. 16:51:23 Trying to communicate without using English and hoping a new language comes about somehow. 16:51:44 so is #implang abandoned now? 16:52:01 I think I'm trying to get more people for it. 16:52:13 but #implang turned into a planned language, didn't it? 16:52:18 I guess I'm not sure of whether I'm really doing that. 16:53:00 Well, I don't think I really like the way that that's going. 16:53:22 aww 16:53:24 it was going well :( 16:53:30 Hmm... 17:17:44 -!- olsner has joined. 17:44:53 everything sucks ass 17:45:10 try to keep that in mind, y'all 17:45:43 By "ass", do you mean "donkey" or That Body Part with Many Names? 17:47:02 latter 17:47:26 former 17:50:01 :< 17:56:57 -!- jix_ has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:57:13 -!- jix__ has joined. 18:47:17 -!- ns_ has joined. 18:47:31 I should write an Unlambda interpreter in Haskell. 18:47:39 Er, why is my nick ns_? 18:47:40 -!- ns_ has changed nick to ihope_. 18:47:54 I guess it didn't get the picture when I said /nick ihope_... 18:52:43 unlambda interpreter in haskell = 5 minute job 18:52:57 just represent the primitives as real haskell functions 18:53:00 I'm taking it slow. :-) 18:56:13 hmm... how do you do call/cc in haskell? 18:57:01 Continuation monads. 18:57:23 ah, a monad.. should've guessed ;-) 18:57:36 Unlambda in just about any functional language is trivial. . . 18:57:42 callCC :: (MonadCont m) => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a 18:58:00 Don't tell me I should be done by now. I haven't started yet. 19:00:30 * pikhq should implement Unlambda in Scheme to learn some Scheme. . . 19:00:44 Know of any good Scheme interpreters? 19:00:59 I don't. 19:01:05 Helpful. 19:01:10 Indeed. 19:01:28 we used Chez Scheme for our SICP course 19:01:33 I do know "Write Yourself a Scheme in 48 Hours", a Haskell tutorial which presumably results in a Scheme interpreter. 19:01:41 Know of it, rather. 19:02:08 oh, that reminds me that I was thinking of going through that tutorial... any day now 19:02:18 Also, . is to | as ? is to the command Unlambda needs. 19:03:35 hmm... please clarify? 19:04:40 `|X returns `X.x where x is the current character. There should be a command--", say--such that `"X returns `X?x where x is the current character. 19:06:50 I think the monad I want is ContT IO. 19:10:25 (Also, I wonder if this kernel update will break ndiswrapper.) 19:33:07 -!- ihope_ has quit ("Lost terminal"). 19:41:31 good scheme interpreter? 19:41:33 chicken! 20:20:38 -!- blahbot` has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:24:35 omg it's raining 20:33:48 pikhq: mit-scheme 20:34:54 tree rewriting! 20:36:52 aaaaardappel 20:39:29 Aardappel? 20:40:10 sure 20:41:08 i love that lang, though i haven't really used it 20:41:12 It's like an aardvark, except more of a potato. 20:41:16 wouter is one smooth talker 20:41:18 *writer 20:41:26 or 20:41:31 did i remember the name wrong? 20:41:37 And it's Dutch! 20:41:48 And who? 20:41:51 aardvark? 20:41:55 whuzz that+ 20:42:08 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aardvark 20:42:14 Orycteropus afer! 20:42:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Orycteropus_afer_stuffed.jpg omg i've never seen anything this beautiful :O 20:44:30 Quite the thing! 20:44:46 Rather scary. 20:45:47 "[The House Mouse] is probably the second most populous mammalian species on Earth (after humans)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Mouse 20:46:06 Quite the thing. If humans are the most populous mammal, and they're so big... 20:48:00 I'd like to see the top-ten populous animals... things like cockroaches - how many can there be on the entire earth? 20:48:14 -!- oklokok has left (?). 20:48:14 -!- oklokok has joined. 20:48:44 Hmm... 20:48:54 Heck, I wonder what the most populous organism is. 20:49:13 your mo- er, yeah 20:50:43 Whoa, nematode. 20:52:01 hehe, the Methuselah Mouse Prize is somewhat like competing in server uptimes, but for mouse breeders 20:52:17 "Heck, i wonder what most people thing an orgasm is." 20:52:25 s/thing/think 20:52:36 current record: a mouse that lived for 1819 days 20:59:13 MY MOUSE LIVED FOR 14 EO 20:59:17 -ns. 20:59:30 House Mouse: Mus musculus. Apparently "musculus" means "little mouse", and the word "muscle" comes from that. 21:01:23 Looks like there have been only four eons. 21:01:28 This is the fourth. 21:02:21 so my body has lots of little mice 21:02:27 acting as muscles? 21:03:40 Nope. Ideally, your muscles make it look like there are mice running around under your skin. 21:03:46 At least, that's what I've heard on the radio. 21:04:02 And that ideal is an old one, not a current one. :-) 21:30:18 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 21:30:50 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Client Quit). 22:31:16 fuck :( 22:31:48 they won't give me the storm sewer map 22:36:30 who 22:36:33 they say i need a better reason than "just curious" 22:36:38 the city government 22:36:59 they think you're a terrorist 22:38:11 probably 22:39:30 also i think he's a terrorist... who in their right mind would have 'bomb' in their nick unless they're a terrorist... 22:39:39 lol 22:39:53 Claim it's for a school project. 22:40:22 i thought about that 22:40:56 but, they invited me to come talk to their engineer who could show me how the system works 22:41:08 which is probably what they would have done if i said it was for school 22:42:28 "the water comes in, then it goes out" 22:43:11 lament: Python is indeed very nice. 22:43:11 greaaaaaat... 22:43:22 The only thing I don't like about it is the somewhat-shoddy OOP. 22:43:51 What's the point of having to include self as a parameter in each object method? 22:44:47 foo.bar() is just syntactic sugar for class_of_foo.bar(foo) 22:45:11 bsmntbombdood: Claim you are writing a novel about a volcano erupting in the city and you think the storm drains could be used to re-direct lava. 22:45:40 That was the plot of some movie the "sci-fi" channel show occasionally 22:45:44 I realize that oklopol, but still, they could have made the system a bit more OOP-ish. 22:45:50 several of their movies in fact 22:45:54 If it's, as it claims, ``built-around-OOP''. 22:46:31 erm, you are using a silly definition of OOP 22:47:02 http://paulgraham.com/reesoo.html 22:47:11 Sukoshi: i don't like the self thing either, but just because i don't like typing the extra 5 characters. 22:47:14 you are concentrating too much on #9 22:47:26 otoh, Python is heavily oriented to #9 22:47:35 Yes I am. I'm assuming a message-passing system with methods belonging to classes that naturally perform state-based behavior. 22:47:40 SimonRC: that wouldn't require knowing the real locations 22:48:07 On that assumption, which I believe is tacit when referring to Python, I make my arguments :) 22:48:11 Sukoshi: self is explicitly passed, rather than implicitly 22:48:14 so what? 22:48:17 bsmntbombdood: it might do. Depends if there is a bright that falls down blocking it or something 22:48:28 a bright? 22:48:28 SimonRC: You've just commited a grave logical fallacy: Argumentum ad Paul Graham. 22:48:29 you could just walk round them and map them yourself 22:48:39 i wouldn't know where the tunnels and outfalls are 22:48:40 pikhq: :D 22:48:55 and which manholes are storm drains and which are sanitary/water 22:48:59 pikhq: I just think there is more to OO than the Smalltalk family 22:49:09 manhole... hihi 22:49:28 ah, I was thining of storm drains as the big open things like in the movie Grease. 22:49:31 oklopol: put your man-stick in my man-hole? 22:49:37 hehehehe 22:49:42 lolol 22:49:46 bsmntbombdood: with pleasure 22:49:47 I'm familliar with the different systems but, it is a bit baroque to talk about edge cases of a multimethod system when referring to a message-passing system, is my point :) 22:49:53 Besides, he ignores Snit's delegation behavior. . . 22:49:58 SimonRC: outfalls, you mean? 22:49:59 we'll do that next time you're in finland 22:50:08 bsmntbombdood: dunno 22:50:15 if i could find the outfalls, i wouldn't need the map 22:55:35 maybe i can get someone to go taxpayer on their ass 22:56:04 `` "Heck, i wonder what most people thing an orgasm is."'' <--- ?!?! 22:56:59 bsmntbombdood: with that there is always the worry that they will offer you a refund. :-) 22:57:25 (about 1ยข) 22:59:12 SimonRC: like that would happen 23:00:38 speaking of OO, haskell so doesn't have any :( 23:01:41 erm 23:01:56 actually: 23:03:18 by the reeese definitions, it has 1, 2, 4, 5, and 7 23:06:52 SimonRC: that was how i read what ihope said a couple lines before that 23:06:58 ah, ok 23:09:32 by the what definitions? 23:13:14 I guess fixing ndiswrapper is a little fun. 23:17:12 -!- olsner has quit. 23:21:06 lament: http://paulgraham.com/reesoo.html 23:27:24 i don't think 5 applies to haskell, but in any case the fact that so many definitions apply seems to suggest that that list of definitions is bullshit 23:27:33 http://pi.ytmnd.com/ ha! i love that song. it also occurs to me that this is an excellent way to memorize pi 23:29:32 I don't think I get number 1. 23:33:42 i should make an infinite flash piece for pi 23:33:52 that oughtta be trivial 23:34:05 Mmh, I don't want to have a password anymore. 23:34:17 I've typed it rather a many times today. 23:42:48 * GregorR 's laptop has a fingerprint scanner. 23:42:57 <-- winnar 23:43:33 * pikhq 's desktop has a unique entry method composed of a collection of alphanumeric buttons, used for both textual and mathematic input 23:43:54 Well. "unique". 23:44:34 Is this new and unique method of input called a "keyboard"? 23:44:38 oklopol: but can you make it generate that song 23:44:56 it's just a beat + some vocals :p 23:45:03 record vocals for 0-9 and some patterns of numbers, 23:45:15 play the background using some synthesiser or whatever 23:45:22 and play the vocal samples on top while scrolling by pi 23:45:30 perfect way to memorize pi! 23:46:07 Typing my password requires pressing Shift four times... which isn't that bad, I guess. 23:46:34 GregorR: Yes, it is! Quite incredible! (I take it you have one, too!) 23:46:47 um for some reason these digits popped into my head 2058914058291749238410697980 23:46:49 pikhq: I have at least four :P 23:46:53 i think they are in pi somewhere, but i got a part wrong 23:46:55 i think 23:46:58 * pikhq counts 23:47:03 pikhq: I also have a touchscreen laptop OOOOH BURN 23:47:08 near the start, of course 23:47:15 Touchscreen laptop? 23:47:20 My laptop has a touchpad! 23:47:22 :-P 23:47:22 4, if you count a broken laptop, an AT keyboard, and a keyboard without a space bar. 23:47:33 I don't :P 23:47:44 Well, I *have* the space bar. . . 23:47:50 Just a few feet away from the keyboard. 23:48:16 X-D 23:48:59 Yay, I now better know what the problem with ndiswrapper is! 23:49:28 (Cool. One of the spelling suggestions for "ndiswrapper" is "handicappers".) 23:55:35 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).