< 1185753887 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"@+" < 1185754517 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1185755188 0 :RedDak!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1185755288 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzzzzzzz < 1185758459 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-200-73-175.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1185758602 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1185758851 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1185758857 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's up, calamari? < 1185758877 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: working on a FUSE filesystem, it's quite a struggle < 1185758901 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard they can be rather tricky. What is it sitting on top of? < 1185758978 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any filesystem < 1185759046 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the easy part is working fine.. python program that breaks up a file (for example a disk image) into blocks and compresses each one with bzip2 < 1185759079 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then when mounted, the FUSE fs makes it appear that the original image is there < 1185759133 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works okay with raw blocks (if the bz2 was larger than the block size, I throw it out and just store the raw). But the bz2 randomly crashes < 1185759164 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my best guesses are a memory leak or a concurrency problem < 1185759178 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, exception handling with call/cc < 1185759275 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: ? < 1185759292 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exception handling, implemented with call/cc < 1185759295 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty neat < 1185759331 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is call/cc < 1185759340 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call with current continuation < 1185759383 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like a fork < 1185759388 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://paste.lisp.org/display/45319 < 1185759427 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which language is that written in? < 1185759432 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp? < 1185759733 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scheme < 1185765369 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, it was fine.. I guess FUSE does threads, and my code isn't thread safe < 1185765471 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reworks .. can't write to globals < 1185765519 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write mutators to closures, then! < 1185765568 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, never mind.. this is fine for reading but it won't work for writing < 1185765643 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless fuse is smart about that < 1185765700 0 :ihope!n=ihope@tapthru/resident/ihope JOIN :#esoteric < 1185765788 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh oh. < 1185765799 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the shortest ski form of \a.`k`k``axy? < 1185765905 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hopefully it's not ``s`kk``s`kk``s``si`kx`ky. < 1185766024 0 :Sukoshi!n=Sukoshi@user-11fa8vp.dsl.mindspring.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1185766027 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: You home? < 1185769097 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good night, everyone < 1185769114 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1185771102 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: NEVAR < 1185771229 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: Can you use sane C pointer syntax in C++ ? < 1185771422 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1185772459 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, duh. < 1185772527 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay. Stupid C++ reference BS. < 1185772604 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay! r/w working < 1185772633 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The C++ "&" types don't need to be used if you don't want it; char * is still a perfectly cromulent type. < 1185772638 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's funny because cat /dev/zero > a is actually making it take less space (0's compress well) < 1185772674 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good. < 1185772685 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I'm not comfortable with that high-level pointer nonsense. < 1185772747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've not actually *used* it at all. < 1185772765 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might. < 1185772773 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, the new-reference stuff you mean? < 1185772799 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The C++ reference junk. < 1185773369 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did somebody mention pointers? < 1185773379 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION dons a gas mask and heavy gloves < 1185773807 0 :GregorR-L!n=gregor@c-76-27-232-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1185774489 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1185777384 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1185778060 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@71-208-207-122.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1185778254 0 :ihope_!n=ihope@c-71-205-100-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1185778256 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ihope < 1185778336 0 :bsmntbom1dood!i=gavin@abacus.kwzs.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1185778607 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1185778642 0 :bsmntbom1dood!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1185779843 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1185781482 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1185781547 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1185781600 0 :cherez!n=cherez@CPE-65-30-35-192.kc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1185782399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1185782400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1185784716 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1185785482 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1185786079 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :school is going to start soon :( < 1185786267 0 :cherez!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1185789320 0 :helios24!i=helios@tomakin.lupo.hellzilla.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1185789331 0 :helios24!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1185789390 0 :helios24!i=helios@tomakin.lupo.hellzilla.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1185789418 0 :helios24!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1185789474 0 :helios24!i=helios@tomakin.lupo.hellzilla.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1185789533 0 :helios24!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1185789558 0 :helios24!i=helios@tomakin.lupo.hellzilla.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1185794710 0 :ehird`!n=test@user-514f618c.l4.c3.dsl.pol.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1185803316 0 :ihope_!n=ihope@c-71-205-100-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1185803317 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ihope < 1185806203 0 :RedDak!n=dak@host6-86-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1185808575 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1185809140 0 :RodgerTheGreat!n=Rodger@wads-5-232-125.resnet.mtu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1185809152 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'morning, folks < 1185809271 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Morn'. < 1185809341 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :error : syntax anomaly at 'morning, folks\nMorn'.; < 1185809341 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ^ < 1185809341 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : unexpected ;, expecting id < 1185809342 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :howdy, pikhq < 1185809370 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ERROR - Improperly terminated character constant < 1185809385 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1185809397 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're using a stone-age language with ' as the character-marker? :P < 1185809400 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok then < 1185809410 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, one known as Haskell. < 1185809420 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :error : syntax anomaly at 'morning, folks\nMorn'.; < 1185809420 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ^ < 1185809420 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : unexpected o, expecting ' < 1185809804 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1185809889 0 :RedDak!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1185811709 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-96-28.w86-204.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1185812107 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1185813361 0 :ihope_!n=ihope@c-71-205-100-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1185814365 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1185815059 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: You aren't using Schildt as a reference are you? < 1185816794 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#\M #\o #\r #\n #\i #\n #\g < 1185818633 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood, surely you mean (#\M . (#\o ... < 1185818661 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the abbreviated list syntax should be used whenever possible < 1185819704 0 :cherez!n=cherez@CPE-65-30-35-192.kc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1185819932 0 :ihope__!n=ihope@c-71-205-100-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1185819936 0 :ihope__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ihope < 1185820630 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1185821111 0 :aschmack!n=fuckyou@cpe-66-66-107-117.rochester.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1185821157 0 :aschmack!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[>+>+<<-] < 1185821157 0 :aschmack!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++<< < 1185821157 0 :aschmack!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :++++++++++[>>.-<.<-] < 1185821163 0 :aschmack!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1185821397 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-091-096-032-085.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1185821851 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Creative. A BF troll. < 1185821862 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that he can't use copy/paste, obviously. < 1185821864 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hunh < 1185821939 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf is that anyway? Some kind of counter? < 1185821946 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs it < 1185821960 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 " < 1185821978 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1185822747 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[>+>+<<-]>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++<< ++++++++++[>>.-<.<-] < 1185822774 0 :blahbot`!n=blahbot`@user-514f618c.l4.c3.dsl.pol.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1185822775 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[>+>+<<-]>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++<< ++++++++++[>>.-<.<-] < 1185822775 0 :blahbot`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 < 1185822785 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, egobot is dead < 1185822789 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%cmds < 1185822790 0 :blahbot`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quit, eval, ps, kill, cmds, help, reload, join, part, send, topic, raw, bf, parse, reduce, wapr (use %help for argument information) < 1185822800 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%wapr nobody loves wapr! < 1185822801 0 :blahbot`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[72, 73, 60, 73, 62, 83, 70, 73, 80, 63, 77, 81] < 1185823357 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%reduce $^xAt < 1185823357 0 :blahbot`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A < 1185823363 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%reduce $^xx$^xAt < 1185823364 0 :blahbot`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A < 1185823369 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%reduce $^x$xx$^xAt < 1185823370 0 :blahbot`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$AA < 1185823383 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%reduce $^x^y$xyAB < 1185823384 0 :blahbot`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^y$Ay < 1185823390 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%reduce $$^x^y$xyAB < 1185823390 0 :blahbot`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$AB < 1185823395 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%reduce $$^x^y$xy^xxB < 1185823395 0 :blahbot`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$^xxB < 1185823406 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :broken already < 1185824739 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Broken? < 1185824773 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%reduce $^x^xxA < 1185824774 0 :blahbot`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^xA < 1185824794 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :May or may not be right, depending on how you look at it. < 1185824821 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$^x^yx^yy < 1185824824 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%reduce $^x^yx^yy < 1185824825 0 :blahbot`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^y^yy < 1185824858 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%reduce $$^x^yx^yyA < 1185824858 0 :blahbot`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^yA < 1185824865 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's definitely wrong. < 1185824872 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%reduce $$^x^yx^zzA < 1185824872 0 :blahbot`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^zz < 1185824880 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's wrong. < 1185825757 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1185825771 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-091-096-040-248.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1185827022 0 :ihope__!n=ihope@c-71-205-100-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1185827063 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1185827065 0 :ihope__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ihope < 1185828894 0 :ihope__!n=ihope@c-71-205-100-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1185829490 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1185829493 0 :ihope__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ihope < 1185830483 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some would say that the worst type of language is that in which given a piece of code, knowing what it actually does requires knowledge of all the rest of the code as well. < 1185830526 0 :cherez!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12320: goto 11340 < 1185830532 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly. < 1185830536 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a++; < 1185830566 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...though your example is most likely better than mine, seeing as how a++ might be very obvious. < 1185830584 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Likewise, that the best type of language is that in which given a piece of code, even a very small one, you can probably tell exactly what it does and why it does it. < 1185830596 0 :cherez!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And noone likes old BASIC. < 1185830642 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Others would argue that an extension of a language must be better than the original. < 1185830679 0 :cherez!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only in the hands of someone who knows when to use the extensions. < 1185830702 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps the extension consists of a switch which can be placed at the top of the main file so as to make every built-in function do something completely different. < 1185830716 0 :cherez!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems the focus of Computer Science nowadays is asserting that you must use the extensions whenever possible. < 1185830718 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a++ meaning "decrement the value at a", perhaps. < 1185830736 0 :cherez!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define a++ a-- < 1185830739 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are all kinds of philosophies you could bring in. < 1185830759 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some philosophies directly contradict each other. < 1185830817 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here, have some philosophy: Every piece should be as small and generally useful as possible. < 1185830857 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And being small being more important than being generally useful. < 1185830917 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Do I look like I'm collecting obscure English language constructs and using them whenever I feel like doing so?) < 1185830919 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html < 1185830933 0 :cherez!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the best program immediately returns. < 1185831029 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not useful. < 1185831046 0 :cherez!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But smaller. < 1185831057 0 :cherez!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And being small is more important. < 1185831072 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1185831074 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. Being useful is more important than being small. Being small is more important than being generally useful. < 1185831074 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*simple* < 1185831087 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to quote my linked document: "# Simplicity-the design must be simple, both in implementation and interface. It is more important for the implementation to be simple than the interface. Simplicity is the most important consideration in a design. < 1185831100 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And being correct is more important than being useful. < 1185831138 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better to give no answer than to give a wrong answer, since if you give no answer, it's obvious that you didn't give the right answer. < 1185831142 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The good news is that in 1995 we will have a good operating system and programming language; the bad news is that they will be Unix and C++." < 1185831145 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1185831162 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's all kinds of philosophy we could come up with... < 1185831181 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c++ ? < 1185831254 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe this: know exactly what you're doing and do it. < 1185831290 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Know exactly what you want to do. Do exactly what you want to do. < 1185831318 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: the ability to give wrong answers is what differentiates humans and AI from dumb machines. < 1185831377 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: The waterfall model? < 1185831378 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1185831383 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: waterfall model? < 1185831400 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, "Know exactly what you want to do. Do exactly what you want to do." == waterfall modle < 1185831602 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1185831702 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The waterfall model looks more like "make everything be in the same phase". < 1185831887 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the waterfall model falls apart at the first half of your description: requirements < 1185831912 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um... < 1185831990 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the waterfall model is avoiding things like "I want each function to do what the other doesn't" and "I *think* I've handled all the cases I need to"? < 1185832116 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first one isn't knowing exactly what you want to do because you're not specifying just where the dividing line between the functions goes. The second one isn't doing exactly what you want to do because you might easily have missed a case. < 1185832118 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that the user doesn't really know what they *need*. < 1185832134 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if the user thinks they know what they need, they're likely to be wrong in some ways < 1185832163 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mm, I'm not actually sure what this philosophy is for. < 1185832181 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Languages, constructs or programs. < 1185832254 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh... < 1185832256 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1185832316 0 :ihope!n=ihope@tapthru/resident/ihope JOIN :#esoteric < 1185832337 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is that the waterfall model? < 1185832345 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...er, maybe I see. < 1185832360 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both are "know what you do before you do it"? < 1185832548 0 :Sukoshi`!n=Sukoshi@user-11fa9is.dsl.mindspring.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1185832974 0 :RedDak!n=dak@host47-88-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1185833046 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: or rather, don;t do anything until you know exactly what you are going to do < 1185833054 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods < 1185833094 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Always be simple/consistent, never be wrong. < 1185833197 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a very ineffective strategy :) < 1185833217 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, worse is not better < 1185833219 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and better is not better < 1185833233 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i propose, instead, that snakes and chickens is better, which is the philosophy i follow < 1185833250 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: ineffective? < 1185833259 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a bit like the integers and real numbers versus the complex numbers, two follow the same sort of line and one is completely different < 1185833332 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: like i said, the ability to make errors and act on heuristics is one of the differences between humans/strong AI and dumb machines < 1185833523 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1185833540 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess my metholodogy is like a less-specified agile strategy without the stupid parts and without the hype < 1185833572 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it advocates a simple interface whenever possible, though if you can get a great shortage in code size without too much loss of interface quality, do it < 1185833588 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard-to-understand and complex bits of code should be abstracted away in a certain place < 1185833608 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should be able to read the code as a description of "what this does", not "how this does that". abstracting away complex hacks helps immensely < 1185833644 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A type system powerful enough to express exactly what a function does would be quite nice. < 1185833666 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has a simple methodology. . . "Make the program work. Make it readable. Make it beautiful." < 1185833693 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Oops. < 1185833694 0 :cherez!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: SortedSequence sort(Sequence);? < 1185833713 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Unlambda fits the category of languages in which you can take a small piece and tell exactly what it does. < 1185833715 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"CommandQ" < 1185833726 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though it can't tell you why it does it. < 1185833743 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cherez: hmm? < 1185833776 0 :cherez!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A type system that expresses exactly what a function does. < 1185833795 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's... rather difficult < 1185833801 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Integer+2 Add2(Integer) < 1185833807 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: because it doesn't have any names < 1185833826 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MaybeHaltsOrMaybeDoesn't HaltingProblem(void) < 1185833841 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be very difficult, given all this incompleteness and undecidability. < 1185833849 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cherez: I invite *you* to do it. :p < 1185833887 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION indicates Epigram < 1185833919 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't Epigram restrict recursion for the sake of decidability? < 1185833927 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GodKnowsWhatThisCouldPossiblyReturn input(FileStream) < 1185833927 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1185833941 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have written a program to tell you if another program will halt. Unfortunately, it has the nasty tendency of taking forever if the program being tested doesn't halt >_> < 1185833962 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FileStreamInput input(FileStream) < 1185833975 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope, that's just a turing-complete type system < 1185833983 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, we call the signatures in those "code" < 1185833989 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: Run it on itself. . . < 1185834007 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Epigram's type system is Turing-complete? < 1185834010 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: It seems that you can write any sensible program in Epigram. < 1185834016 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1185834037 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION loads up the weird Epigram stuff < 1185834057 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: PERFECT! < 1185834081 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, how about < 1185834085 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any result is a paradox. ;) < 1185834086 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ProbablyAlwaysReturns2 SmallestNumberOfPrimesAddingUpTo(PositiveEvenInteger) < 1185834095 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um... < 1185834098 0 :cherez!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you could use that kind of a type system as a cleaner implementation of asserts.... < 1185834108 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, Epigram has a type that can only hold numbers that are not multiples of 2. < 1185834139 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: is that so difficult? < 1185834152 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...er, multiples of 3, I meant. < 1185834169 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can write any sensible program in Epigram, it probably also has a type that can only hold Turing machines that halt. < 1185834253 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it have a type for all integers except 1,3 and 41893? < 1185834260 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1185834273 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like it's very hard to implement < 1185834282 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it have a type for all integers that are not real numbers? < 1185834283 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1185834290 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what doesn't? < 1185834310 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here it is in Haskell: data NonRealInteger < 1185834310 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most languages don't < 1185834326 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most languages don't have types that hold no values at all? < 1185834328 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C only has a pointer to it :) < 1185834341 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: i sure hope so < 1185834351 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: i can't think of any (other than the aforementioned haskell definition) < 1185834405 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1185834421 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, most languages probably have only a finite number of types, yes? < 1185834458 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, most languages allow user-defined types < 1185834492 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but can there ever actually be an infinite number of them, or just many many many? < 1185834514 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/many many many/arbitrarily many/, to be a bit more exact < 1185834525 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think there can be an infinite many in most languages < 1185834538 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: any language with polymorphic types presumably has infinitely many < 1185834545 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: a list, a list of lists, a list of lists of lists.... < 1185834545 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods < 1185834577 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is void a proper type in C++? < 1185834587 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It ought to be, for parameterisation purposes. < 1185834598 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know if you can define a variable as it < 1185834607 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders his piece of Epigram < 1185834618 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where? < 1185834646 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, void would work quite well if sizeof(void) == 0 < 1185834654 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indexing is pointless, for a start < 1185834679 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes up no space as a return value... < 1185834680 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1185834774 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof(void) == 0 -> sizeof(*voidptr) == 0 -> oh no < 1185834828 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, no < 1185834831 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong < 1185834838 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try again < 1185834859 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I see what you mean < 1185834861 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's difficult to have a completely empty type in a language where you have to explicitly create variables and assign a type to them, after which they hold some value (like C++) < 1185834874 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why is that bad? < 1185834877 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you shouldn't be able to do that < 1185834908 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should only work if you can't use the value in any way < 1185834913 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, you just say that its only value is automatically cast to and from the integer 0, and to and from the null pointer < 1185834921 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void v, w; // v and w don't hold anything < 1185834947 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (v == w) // wrong!!! this should result in an error, you can't compare nothing with nothing < 1185834954 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm actually, you can < 1185834958 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you can't < 1185834965 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would the result be? < 1185834973 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The void typ would be analogous to the 90 type in Haskell < 1185834975 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1185834979 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"() type" < 1185834981 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't confuse a type with one member with a type with 0 members < 1185834997 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the void type should have 1 possible value < 1185835007 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a 0-bit type < 1185835009 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we were talking about the type "integers that aren't real numbers" < 1185835010 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^0 = 1 < 1185835015 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such a type has no members < 1185835029 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't < 1185835102 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides to use "specify everything" as his Epigram philosophy for now < 1185835146 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: you actually program in that thing? < 1185835151 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you got it to work < 1185835152 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1185835153 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1185835157 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, what? < 1185835162 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many questions am I being asked? < 1185835170 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1185835172 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(void question) < 1185835173 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't actually program in it. I did get it to work. < 1185835177 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, did you get the emacs mode to work? < 1185835199 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epigram looks pretty ugly. < 1185835201 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems you can't go back and edit old bits of the program though < 1185835240 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"enclose a b f r x : Result a b f r" < 1185835244 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can. It's just difficult. < 1185835302 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or weird or something. < 1185835306 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not obvious how to do it. < 1185835337 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it's specified in the paper. < 1185836689 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ought to put his philosophy down in words sometime < 1185836704 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like it < 1185836774 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't be hard. < 1185836797 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh you're talking about THAT epigram < 1185836807 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's more than one? < 1185836827 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, i think i know what you're talking about < 1185836861 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what is your philosophy, roughly? < 1185836884 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few main points are: < 1185836909 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. explicit is better than implicit, apart from when explicit is ugly and/or doesn't matter to the reader/hacker of the code < 1185836926 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2. hard-to-understand and complex bits of code should be abstracted away into simple terms! < 1185836941 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3. because of 2 and 1, code will describe /what/ it does, not /how/ it does it < 1185836964 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4. interface simplicity is important, but code simplicity is more important, UNLESS it impacts on interface simplicity greatly < 1185836980 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 seems to imply how rather than what < 1185836982 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5. comments are to be used sparingly, to explain algorithms and abstracts, but not code - which, because of 3, should already be self-explanatory < 1185836988 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, indeed, but just to clarify < 1185836992 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, < 1185836994 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1185836997 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does 1 imply that? < 1185837005 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 is basically "no hidden magic" < 1185837009 0 :Sukoshi`!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sukoshi < 1185837018 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :explicit better than implicit < 1185837021 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't BRUSH OVER things, sure, but don't make code a recipe... make it a description < 1185837038 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't that mean "a hash table with buckets of size 150" instead of "a dictionary"? < 1185837052 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hash tables have buckets? < 1185837062 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird`: Prolog does that. < 1185837078 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi, Yes, prolog heads in the right direction for that < 1185837079 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, no < 1185837093 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python follows explicit>implicit in a way, do you see things like that in it? < 1185837093 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1185837194 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stupid limited auxiliary verbs! < 1185837259 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how I would go about removing those limits... < 1185837280 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I don't often see people speaking in moods other than the indicative. < 1185837787 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't you a native speaker? < 1185837814 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1185837831 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then.... < 1185837840 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :learn to speak your own language :) < 1185837844 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh... < 1185837849 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't I learn to speak Spanish instead? < 1185837865 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no English word for "debiendo"! < 1185837932 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and it seems I am indeed sort of mentally translating into English, seeing as how I'm apparently unable to comprehend anything containing the word "debiendo". < 1185837956 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eso tambien seria bueno, pero el espanol tiene los mismos problemas con verbos auxiliares < 1185837965 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Java, is it good practice to assign null to something that's uninitialized, and then check against null to see if it's uninitialized? < 1185837981 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spanish has auxiliary verbs? < 1185837990 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :si < 1185837996 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Perhaps it's not the "debiendo" that's the problem.) < 1185837998 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :他の語を話して止めてください。 < 1185838013 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I don't believe I'm familiar with auxiliary verbs in Spanish... < 1185838019 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :これは英語ただ話してもいいと思いますし。 < 1185838022 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: is that _supposed_ to be a bunch of squares? < 1185838026 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: no. < 1185838029 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: No :) < 1185838034 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Japanese, ayE? < 1185838036 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1185838040 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION squishes E < 1185838043 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/これ/ここ/ < 1185838063 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assumed it was japanese since it's Sukoshi, but all i see is squares :) < 1185838085 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you're using the right character encoding and other scary things... < 1185838091 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: 'haber' is the main one, meaning the same as the english 'to have' < 1185838103 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have talked - he hablado; etc < 1185838107 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods < 1185838137 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not at all experienced with haber apart from its being used to mean "there is". < 1185838142 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of "would", though, spanish has a separate tense < 1185838149 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Je peux aussi parle en francais, mais ce n'est pas une langue interessante. < 1185838158 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(would talk - hablaria) < 1185838165 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Que je juste pense.) < 1185838170 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the problem with things like "I would have talked"? < 1185838176 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1185838192 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a separate tense for 'would X' where X is a verb < 1185838205 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case, would have - habria < 1185838222 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and talked is just the past participle in both languages < 1185838225 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so hablado < 1185838281 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: all languages are interesting, surely :) < 1185838343 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where's the problem with auxiliary verbs, then? < 1185838436 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the situation is the same as in english < 1185838448 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you just disliked auxiliary verbs in general < 1185838453 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have varying degrees of facillity in 5, and I disagree lament :P < 1185838453 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a specific problem? < 1185838476 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things like "should" don't have all the forms that "normal" verbs do. < 1185838487 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: when is it a problem? < 1185838505 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: frankly, "varying degrees of facility" doesn't sound very impressive :) < 1185838522 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why doesn't everyone use utf8 < 1185838543 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird`: because everyone SHOULD be using UTF-7! < 1185838555 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF-pi < 1185838664 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: well, you might use the present participle instead of other forms when discussing... hypotheticals, I guess. < 1185838695 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm < 1185838700 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :present participle of "should"? < 1185838702 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The sky being red would be pretty cool." < 1185838704 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1185838705 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: One of them I have native-level proficiency, the other I have native-high-school level facillity, a third I have somewhat-below native facillity, a fourth I have layman-speech facillity, and a fifth I have layman-peech facillity. < 1185838733 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/-peech/-speech/ < 1185838734 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: so... you just said it. What's the problem then? :) < 1185838738 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, plain old imperfect subjunctive is iffy. < 1185838784 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus both of you are complaining about a lack of Western language features :) < 1185838792 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not complaining about anything < 1185838798 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, ihope is. < 1185838799 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love all languages < 1185838832 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess "should" is sort of equivalent to "has to". < 1185838880 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: i just don't understand how a language can be "uninteresting" :) < 1185838928 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The sky is blue, so people should wear red glasses if they don't want to see the light from it. It'd be cool if the sky were red, so people would have to wear blue glasses if they didn't want to see the light from it." < 1185838972 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The actual case that rather frustrated me was a hypothetical philosophy. < 1185838995 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather exceptional, really. < 1185839011 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: "Western language" is a rather odd term. Linguists would laugh at you. < 1185839018 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'd rather not use that word the same way three times in a row.) < 1185839058 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Indo-European language"? < 1185839084 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: What superfluous derivationally-correct term would they use to refer to it? < 1185839105 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: i'm not sure, because i don't know what you meant < 1185839121 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is exactly the reason for more exact terms) < 1185839134 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmph. Have you never heard the term ``Western'' in speech before? < 1185839170 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ``Western'' world, for instance? < 1185839189 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Used by historians a good deal too, IIRC. < 1185839199 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: in that sense, "western language" makes sense, but "western language feature" not really < 1185839213 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: since there're so many western languages with all sorts of different features < 1185839254 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you refer to the Celtic languages, which I've never really heard being included as part of the ``West'', I don't see the argument there. < 1185839294 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: is basque a western language? Is Finnish? < 1185839301 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither. < 1185839316 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then our notions of "western world" are quite a bit different < 1185839364 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine certainly includes western europe. < 1185839381 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you cannot exactly call the Moors ``Western''. < 1185839391 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I wouldn't call Finland ``Western Europe''. < 1185839405 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, this is why "western" is a rather unfortuante term :) < 1185839538 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's politically loaded, among other things < 1185839549 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Clash_of_Civilizations_%E2%88%9E.png < 1185839573 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huntington thinks both Spain and Finland are in the "Western Civilization"