←2007-07-28 2007-07-29 2007-07-30→ ↑2007 ↑all
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00:21:43 <bsmntbombdood> me deskewer is slow as hell
00:23:10 <bsmntbombdood> actually...not
00:27:44 <bsmntbombdood> the output of /dev/audio isn't random at all
00:29:13 <bsmntbombdood> blech
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01:54:32 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: the output of /dev/random is probably a bit more random.
01:54:38 <bsmntbombdood> a bit
01:54:45 <pikhq> But still a PRNG.
01:54:58 <bsmntbombdood> wrong
01:55:05 <bsmntbombdood> /dev/random uses real entropy
01:55:11 <pikhq> . . . Oh, right. XD
01:55:25 <pikhq> (as opposed to that fake, decreasing entropy?)
01:55:42 <bsmntbombdood> as apposed to prng "entropy"
02:04:27 <ihope> As opposed to /dev/urandom
02:04:37 <ihope> Or /dev/blum, which probably doesn't exist.
02:06:04 <pikhq> Or as opposed to /dev/null.
02:06:16 <pikhq> Can *you* prove that it's not random?
02:06:22 <pikhq> It might very well emit a 1!
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02:39:37 <ihope> Doesn't it not emit anything at all?
02:39:42 <ihope> Is it blank?
02:40:20 <ihope> Yeah, blank.
02:42:19 <pikhq> Actually, it emits 0x00.
02:42:40 <ihope> How many times?
02:42:49 <pikhq> Supposedly oo
02:44:52 <ihope> So it's equivalent to /dev/zero?
02:45:13 <ihope> Wikipedia says otherwise.
02:45:16 <pikhq> Hmm. . . I might be wrong. XD
02:45:41 <pikhq> *Am* wrong, rather.
02:45:56 <pikhq> (it does emit 0x00 if it's a 0-on-EOF BFI :p)
02:58:50 * ihope ponders constants
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03:00:40 <ihope> When does I ignore its argument? Never. When does K ignore its argument? Never. When does Kx ignore its argument? Always. When does Kxy ignore its argument? Whenever x does. When does S ignore its argument? Never. When does Sx ignore its argument? I'll come back to that one. When does Sxy ignore its argument? Whenever x and y both do. When does Sxyz ignore its argument? I'll come back to...
03:00:41 <ihope> ...that one as well.
03:01:10 <ihope> Sx reduces to \yz.xz(yz), and we're looking to know whether the y is ignored.
03:01:42 <ihope> The y is ignored iff the yz is ignored, I believe, so it's... um, just a minute.
03:02:14 <bsmntbombdood> what are you trying to figure out?
03:02:36 <ihope> I'm trying to come up with a few rules for when an SKI calculus expression is a constant.
03:02:45 <ihope> Obviously, there's no complete set of rules.
03:03:15 <pikhq> Obviously, such an expression is constant when it's constant.
03:03:29 <ihope> A constant function, that is.
03:03:46 <ihope> Whether Sx ignores its argument depends on both x and the next argument. It's whenever x(next argument) ignores its argument.
03:04:28 <ihope> Sxyz ignores its argument whenever xz(yz) ignores its argument, but actually following this rule could result in nontermination.
03:04:55 <ihope> I think I conclude that writing a good compiler is really fun.
03:05:11 <ihope> There's always something to be discovered...
03:07:01 <ihope> Now, here's a challenge: try to find a constant in SKI calculus whose smallest form is *not* Kx form.
03:07:22 <bsmntbombdood> i just wrote a compiler for a string matching language
03:08:42 <pikhq> SKKx
03:08:50 <pikhq> Or, alternately, Ix
03:09:11 <pikhq> Do you mean SK calculus, instead?
03:09:26 <pikhq> (I=(lambda (x) (x)))
03:09:43 <ihope> SKKx is Kx(Kx) which is x, which may not be a constant. Ix is x, which may not be a constant.
03:11:31 <pikhq> Hmm. Tricky.
03:11:50 <pikhq> SIKx?
03:12:13 <ihope> SIKx is Ix(Kx) which is x(Kx). Is that always a constant?
03:12:32 <pikhq> Fik.
03:13:21 * pikhq prefers lambda calc. . . (lambda () ())
03:13:45 <ihope> SKI is easier to express :-)
03:14:24 <pikhq> Yeah, but lambda is shinier.
03:14:43 <ihope> When converting lambda calculus into SKI calculus, since many parts of the expression sometimes don't contain the argument, it may be useful to optimize "weird" constants to "obvious" ones.
03:14:59 <ihope> Then again, if an argument is ignored, it probably won't even be present.
03:16:19 <pikhq> SKSKx
03:19:28 <ihope> SKSKx is KK(SK)x which is Kx, but Kx is shorter than SKSKx.
03:21:54 <pikhq> You asked for the shortest constant not of the form "Kx".
03:22:07 <pikhq> SKSKx != Kx (although they reduce to the same thing)
03:22:28 <ihope> No, a constant whose shortest form is not Kx.
03:22:35 <pikhq> Ah
03:22:36 <pikhq> .
03:22:57 <ihope> Rather, whose shortest form is not of the form Kx.
03:22:58 <pikhq> I don't think there's any other functions which can ignore its argument.
03:24:03 <pikhq> Well, Sxy *can*, but I think that's doomed to reduce to Kx.
03:24:26 <ihope> Any functions other than what?
03:25:10 <pikhq> Kx.
03:25:23 <pikhq> Well, any that are guaranteed to.
03:25:35 <ihope> Is S(Kx)(Ky) something you'd say reduces to K(xy)?
03:26:22 <bsmntbombdood> yes
03:26:54 <ihope> Well, S(Kx)(Ky) certainly isn't shorter than K(xy).
03:27:17 <pikhq> KxzKyz
03:27:34 <ihope> If there's something whose Kx form uses a variable more times than some other form does...
03:27:46 <pikhq> Reduces to xy.
03:27:58 <ihope> You mean Kxz(Kyz)?
03:28:05 <pikhq> . . . Right. XD
03:28:18 <pikhq> Hrmm. . .
03:28:26 <ihope> Well, K(xy)z is shorter...
03:28:49 <ihope> And Kxz(Kyz) isn't a constant; its an expression whose value doesn't depend on the value of some variable.
03:29:24 <pikhq> You're the one who suggested S(Kx)(Ky).
03:29:46 <ihope> Well, it's longer than K(xy).
03:30:14 <pikhq> Yes. . . Anything not of the form K(xy) is doomed to be.
03:30:48 <ihope> Anything not of the form K(xy) is doomed to be longer than its corresponding K(xy) form?
03:32:11 <pikhq> Well, yeah. . .
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03:32:31 <pikhq> When you specify "not of the shortest way possible", you shouldn't be surprised when it's longer than that.
03:32:34 <pikhq> -_-'
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03:38:33 <ihope_> Did I imply that S(Kx)(Ky) was shorter than K(xy)?
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03:49:50 <pikhq> No, you complained about it being longer, almost as though you expected something shorter.
03:53:46 * ihope_ shrugs
03:55:23 <ihope_> Now, K(xyy) can also be stated as K(SS(KI)xy)...
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05:07:50 <ihope_> Hmm.
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10:38:27 <GreaseMonkey> night all
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12:17:53 <ehird`> Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | UNRELATED WEBSITE: http://purple.com -- NO, IRP ALLOWED
12:17:56 -!- ehird` has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | UNRELATED WEBSITE: http://purple.com -- NO, IRP ALLOWED.
12:18:05 <ehird`> UNRELATED WEBSITE is the best thign any topic can have
12:32:05 <ehird`> hmm
12:32:20 * ehird` is working on an esolang based on alchemy
12:32:24 <ehird`> it is creatively called Alchemy
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19:19:28 <SimonRC> http://bash.org/?789185 :-S
19:26:58 <ehird`> haha
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←2007-07-28 2007-07-29 2007-07-30→ ↑2007 ↑all