< 1185668021 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1185668087 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-091-096-058-180.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1185668503 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me deskewer is slow as hell < 1185668590 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually...not < 1185668864 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the output of /dev/audio isn't random at all < 1185668953 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blech < 1185670085 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"@+" < 1185671324 0 :Mahjong!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )" < 1185671588 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1185671759 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-091-096-058-180.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1185672046 0 :aschmack!n=fuckyou@cpe-66-66-107-117.rochester.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1185674072 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: the output of /dev/random is probably a bit more random. < 1185674078 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit < 1185674085 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still a PRNG. < 1185674098 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong < 1185674105 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/dev/random uses real entropy < 1185674111 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. . . Oh, right. XD < 1185674125 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as opposed to that fake, decreasing entropy?) < 1185674142 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as apposed to prng "entropy" < 1185674667 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As opposed to /dev/urandom < 1185674677 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or /dev/blum, which probably doesn't exist. < 1185674764 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or as opposed to /dev/null. < 1185674776 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can *you* prove that it's not random? < 1185674782 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might very well emit a 1! < 1185676446 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"CommandQ" < 1185676777 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't it not emit anything at all? < 1185676782 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it blank? < 1185676820 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, blank. < 1185676939 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, it emits 0x00. < 1185676960 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many times? < 1185676969 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Supposedly oo < 1185677092 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's equivalent to /dev/zero? < 1185677113 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia says otherwise. < 1185677116 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. . . I might be wrong. XD < 1185677141 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Am* wrong, rather. < 1185677156 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it does emit 0x00 if it's a 0-on-EOF BFI :p) < 1185677930 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders constants < 1185677990 0 :GregorR-L!n=gregor@c-76-27-232-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1185678040 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When does I ignore its argument? Never. When does K ignore its argument? Never. When does Kx ignore its argument? Always. When does Kxy ignore its argument? Whenever x does. When does S ignore its argument? Never. When does Sx ignore its argument? I'll come back to that one. When does Sxy ignore its argument? Whenever x and y both do. When does Sxyz ignore its argument? I'll come back to... < 1185678041 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...that one as well. < 1185678070 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sx reduces to \yz.xz(yz), and we're looking to know whether the y is ignored. < 1185678102 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The y is ignored iff the yz is ignored, I believe, so it's... um, just a minute. < 1185678134 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you trying to figure out? < 1185678156 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to come up with a few rules for when an SKI calculus expression is a constant. < 1185678165 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously, there's no complete set of rules. < 1185678195 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously, such an expression is constant when it's constant. < 1185678209 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A constant function, that is. < 1185678226 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whether Sx ignores its argument depends on both x and the next argument. It's whenever x(next argument) ignores its argument. < 1185678268 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sxyz ignores its argument whenever xz(yz) ignores its argument, but actually following this rule could result in nontermination. < 1185678295 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I conclude that writing a good compiler is really fun. < 1185678311 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's always something to be discovered... < 1185678421 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, here's a challenge: try to find a constant in SKI calculus whose smallest form is *not* Kx form. < 1185678442 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just wrote a compiler for a string matching language < 1185678522 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SKKx < 1185678530 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, alternately, Ix < 1185678551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you mean SK calculus, instead? < 1185678566 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I=(lambda (x) (x))) < 1185678583 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SKKx is Kx(Kx) which is x, which may not be a constant. Ix is x, which may not be a constant. < 1185678691 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Tricky. < 1185678710 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SIKx? < 1185678733 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SIKx is Ix(Kx) which is x(Kx). Is that always a constant? < 1185678752 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fik. < 1185678801 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION prefers lambda calc. . . (lambda () ()) < 1185678825 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SKI is easier to express :-) < 1185678864 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but lambda is shinier. < 1185678883 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When converting lambda calculus into SKI calculus, since many parts of the expression sometimes don't contain the argument, it may be useful to optimize "weird" constants to "obvious" ones. < 1185678899 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, if an argument is ignored, it probably won't even be present. < 1185678979 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SKSKx < 1185679168 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SKSKx is KK(SK)x which is Kx, but Kx is shorter than SKSKx. < 1185679314 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You asked for the shortest constant not of the form "Kx". < 1185679327 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SKSKx != Kx (although they reduce to the same thing) < 1185679348 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, a constant whose shortest form is not Kx. < 1185679355 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1185679356 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1185679377 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather, whose shortest form is not of the form Kx. < 1185679378 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's any other functions which can ignore its argument. < 1185679443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Sxy *can*, but I think that's doomed to reduce to Kx. < 1185679466 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any functions other than what? < 1185679510 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kx. < 1185679523 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, any that are guaranteed to. < 1185679535 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is S(Kx)(Ky) something you'd say reduces to K(xy)? < 1185679582 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1185679614 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, S(Kx)(Ky) certainly isn't shorter than K(xy). < 1185679637 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :KxzKyz < 1185679654 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there's something whose Kx form uses a variable more times than some other form does... < 1185679666 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reduces to xy. < 1185679678 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean Kxz(Kyz)? < 1185679685 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. . . Right. XD < 1185679698 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrmm. . . < 1185679706 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, K(xy)z is shorter... < 1185679729 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Kxz(Kyz) isn't a constant; its an expression whose value doesn't depend on the value of some variable. < 1185679764 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're the one who suggested S(Kx)(Ky). < 1185679786 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's longer than K(xy). < 1185679814 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. . . Anything not of the form K(xy) is doomed to be. < 1185679848 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything not of the form K(xy) is doomed to be longer than its corresponding K(xy) form? < 1185679931 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah. . . < 1185679933 0 :ihope_!n=ihope@c-71-205-100-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1185679951 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you specify "not of the shortest way possible", you shouldn't be surprised when it's longer than that. < 1185679954 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_-' < 1185680054 0 :aschmack!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"No beer and no TV makes Homer go something" < 1185680313 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I imply that S(Kx)(Ky) was shorter than K(xy)? < 1185680984 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1185680990 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you complained about it being longer, almost as though you expected something shorter. < 1185681226 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shrugs < 1185681323 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, K(xyy) can also be stated as K(SS(KI)xy)... < 1185681934 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1185685670 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1185686742 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1185687050 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1185687336 0 :Sillyman!n=dnpcarey@c-24-17-125-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1185687364 0 :Sillyman!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quit < 1185687365 0 :Sillyman!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1185689925 0 :tokigun_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1185691881 0 :tokigun!n=tokigun@haje8.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1185694773 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1185695021 0 :GreaseMonkey!n=saru@222-154-146-232.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1185695999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1185696000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1185696541 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1185699268 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-143.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1185700789 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1185703034 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-091-096-038-242.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1185704194 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-62-46.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1185704292 0 :sebbu3!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-107-135.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1185704327 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1185704528 0 :RedDak!n=dak@host193-80-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1185705507 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night all < 1185705527 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1185705574 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1185705636 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-26-77.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1185705679 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1185705679 0 :sebbu3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1185705959 0 :RedDak!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I'm quitting... Bye all" < 1185711412 0 :ehird`!n=test@user-514f618c.l4.c3.dsl.pol.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1185711473 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | UNRELATED WEBSITE: http://purple.com -- NO, IRP ALLOWED < 1185711476 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | UNRELATED WEBSITE: http://purple.com -- NO, IRP ALLOWED < 1185711485 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNRELATED WEBSITE is the best thign any topic can have < 1185712325 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1185712340 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is working on an esolang based on alchemy < 1185712344 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is creatively called Alchemy < 1185715212 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1185715317 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-091-096-038-242.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1185721570 0 :zbrown!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1185722229 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1185722243 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-085-016-235-076.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1185726383 0 :Blejdfist!i=blejdfis@c-df4472d5.024-2014-67626714.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1185726958 0 :ihope_!n=ihope@c-71-205-100-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1185726979 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ihope < 1185733091 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1185736768 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://bash.org/?789185 :-S < 1185737218 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1185737560 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )" < 1185744181 0 :cmeme!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1185744306 0 :RedDak!n=dak@host193-80-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1185744354 0 :cmeme!n=cmeme@boa.b9.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1185746833 0 :Twangly!n=chatzill@71-10-125-206.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1185747022 0 :Twangly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1185748001 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"CommandQ"