< 1185494403 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a continuation does not mutate itself < 1185494409 0 :test_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, why couldn't you do that? < 1185494454 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you implement re-useable continuations on top of non-reusable coroutines? < 1185494476 0 :test_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we're thinking of different ways of defining continuations in coroutines < 1185494479 0 :test_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd explain mine but it's long < 1185494612 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia says that coroutines are "best implemented using continuations" < 1185494650 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says nothing about the possibility of implementing continuations using coroutines, although that does seem intuitively impossible < 1185494721 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1185494723 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! < 1185494757 0 :test_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see why < 1185494764 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One could say that co-routines are more of an imperative thing whereas continuations are more of an impure-functionl thing. < 1185494773 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, not totally relevent < 1185494786 0 :test_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, but co-routines could be said to be functional < 1185494798 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test_: so how would you implement continuations with coroutines? < 1185494807 0 :test_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, the simple way? :P < 1185494810 0 :test_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the obvious way? < 1185494817 0 :test_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not easy to cram into an irc message < 1185494825 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must be not all that simple then :) < 1185494829 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can think of no obvious way < 1185494835 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course, i'm convinced it's impossible) < 1185494845 0 :test_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, to take a quote from lazy k, the computation part of coroutines is an implementation detail... so if you imagine "yield" as a branching statement, they are pure < 1185494852 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the pure functional world we have things like Control.Monad.Cont.ContT, which is fatal to those with an IQ of less that 150. < 1185494872 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test_: erm < 1185494943 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that amb macro is waaay beyond me < 1185494953 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1185494996 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i must've skipped that chapter in sicp < 1185495190 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems that coroutines are almost exactly "one-use" continuations < 1185495210 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how would you get "multi-use" out of them is unclear < 1185495468 0 :test_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loops < 1185495521 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that amb thing is amazing < 1185495557 0 :test_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1185495748 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can write the specification of the problem instead of how to solve it < 1185495786 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: that's exactly how Prolog already works < 1185495792 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider looking at it < 1185495818 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1185495867 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as usually, scheme shines at being able to emulate any programming paradigm out there) < 1185495909 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe Haskell has a LogicT monad somewhere :) < 1185495913 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder how the speed is < 1185495944 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(based on Oleg (TM) work, i think) < 1185496033 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw i have read a couple of times that _delimited_ continuations are essentially equivalent to arbitrary monads. < 1185496347 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucked-up things nobody understands often tend to be equivalent to one another < 1185496451 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(define (an-integer-between lo hi) < 1185496451 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (if (>= lo hi) (amb) (amb lo (an-integer-between (+ lo 1) hi)))) < 1185496454 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's right, right? < 1185496478 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks right < 1185496525 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't that be > rather than >= ? < 1185496555 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think he's using Python semantics for lo and hi < 1185496558 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it won't work with the a-pythagorean-triple-between proc in sicp < 1185496733 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1185496765 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a-pythagorean-triple-between 1 10) => (1 1 0) < 1185496784 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i've been missing something in my life until this if scheme macros can actually archieve stuff like that < 1185496789 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolog has 'between' built-in < 1185496791 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- between(1, 3, N), write(N), fail. < 1185496795 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prints "123" < 1185497258 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does sicp implement amb as an extension to eval rather than just a macro? < 1185500005 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1185500005 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1185500005 0 :meatmanek!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1185500015 0 :meatmanek!n=meatmane@cpe-65-29-79-179.indy.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1185500015 0 :sp3tt!n=sp3tt@80-162.cust.umeaenergi.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1185500015 0 :oklopol!n=ville@194.251.103.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1185500119 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@index showIntAtBase < 1185506763 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is back in Ratpoison. :D
< 1185506959 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion ftw < 1185507132 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"He plans to release future versions of Ion3 as closed source" < 1185507235 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what!?! < 1185507289 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read the Wikipedia page. < 1185507393 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://archlinux.org/pipermail/tur-users/2007-April/004644.html < 1185507703 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :last time i checked in with tumuo there was an ion4 in the works < 1185508082 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, that doesn't make ion any less aweseom < 1185508436 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it does. < 1185508760 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how? < 1185508775 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because his new code won't be open doesn't make his old code any worse < 1185508869 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it means that it'll stagnate. < 1185508902 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ratpoison, on the other hand, is still actively maintained (although a bit less actively, since the main author is currently involved in porting it to Common Lisp) < 1185508944 0 :GregorR-L!n=gregor@c-76-27-232-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1185509109 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think ion can be extended in lua enough to not need active dev < 1185509346 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The dev of Conkeror uses Ratpoison. Since Conkeror rocks, Ratpoison must also rock. < 1185509372 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. < 1185509391 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shawn Betts writes Conkeror, Ratpoison, *and* StumpWm. < 1185509395 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, that guy rocks. < 1185509425 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O.O < 1185509426 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conkeror was much less than i expected < 1185509448 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The man has *also* written nethack-el and LiCE (a port of the Elisp engine to Common Lisp). . . < 1185509464 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION bows
< 1185510816 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-238-37-43.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1185511033 0 :toBogE!n=toBogE@125-238-37-43.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1185511521 0 :GreaseMonkey!n=saru@222-154-141-161.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1185511597 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :alin0 < 1185511600 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1185511623 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric < 1185511632 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was trying to see if you could /topic a user < 1185511637 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1185511821 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well can you? < 1185511921 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1185511930 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sets the topic of the current channel instead < 1185511944 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so don't try it unless you don't like the channel you're in < 1185511955 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since you're only on #esoteric... < 1185512298 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION curses
< 1185512312 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-explode27jul27,0,3190584.story?coll=la-home-local Explosion at Scaled kills 2, injures 4 < 1185512445 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scaled? < 1185512467 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis: i'm not only on #esoteric < 1185512501 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scaled Composites. < 1185512508 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're right in that i like this channel < 1185512511 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Creator of SpaceShipOne. < 1185512539 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did you dure? < 1185512541 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*curse < 1185512561 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(curse -> dure... how?) < 1185512568 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magic. < 1185512601 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did you curse? < 1185512610 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that relevant news? < 1185512616 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To me, at least. . . < 1185512627 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[16:02] ->> oklofok is on :#esoteric < 1185512631 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because... you like rockets? < 1185512636 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damned right. < 1185512648 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, [16:02] ->> oklopol is on #haskell #toboge #esoteric-blah @#vjn #osdev #esoteric < 1185512662 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis: also this one is one multiple channels. < 1185512666 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but oklofok isn't < 1185512671 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah it is. < 1185512674 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric-blah? < 1185512683 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: /whois oklofok < 1185512690 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: very-esoteric. < 1185512709 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: he's the only user on that channel < 1185512709 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it was created for bot flood not to takeover here < 1185512717 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!raw join #esoteric-blah < 1185512745 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it often happens channels die out but i don't leave them < 1185512747 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a few months < 1185512811 0 :Sukoshi!n=Sukoshi@user-11fa8vp.dsl.mindspring.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1185512824 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I'm guessing a constructor in Java can't throw an exception? < 1185512953 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you can. But in this case, I want this constructor to invoke its super's constructor, and the super throws an exception. < 1185512987 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I can't wrap a try/catch around it, because the compiler cries saying it needs the super's constructor to be the first statement in the constructor. < 1185512988 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So :| < 1185513020 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1185513055 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1185513062 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah? < 1185513074 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't throw an exception in a constructor and still have the object actually created < 1185513088 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I want it to throw another exception. < 1185513090 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they don't let you catch the super's exception because you will never need it < 1185513091 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1185513103 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders some more
< 1185513122 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because this class is subclassed by other classes, the meaning of the internal exception has different meanings for the subclass's user based on the subclass used. < 1185513142 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the subclass basically throws a domain-specific version of the exception. < 1185513358 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis: anyway, i'm also on #scheme < 1185513413 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe a minor refactor is neccessary hmm. < 1185513427 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now the interface won't be as nice as I wanted it to be, but it'll work. < 1185513506 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, well, interfaces are overrated anyway < 1185513535 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okomol Opilovonal <<< i have to compliment me on my choise for name < 1185513565 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :public MyClass() throws SuperClassException {super("Parameter");} < 1185513591 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you're not < 1185513597 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it a secret channel? < 1185513617 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i see it's secret < 1185513699 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no it's not < 1185513726 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i'm on that channel, /whois says you are on it < 1185513731 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i'm not, /whois says you're not < 1185513738 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :external messages and colors are disallowes < 1185513739 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*d < 1185513745 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's always like that < 1185513756 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not secret once you're on it < 1185513769 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... i don't see a secret flag on #scheme < 1185513826 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis: that java code doesn't help, she wanted to catch super's constructor's error in the subclass's constructor < 1185513840 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok... < 1185513911 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe: private MyClass(int parm1) throws Exception {super(parm1);} public static MyClass create() {MyClass c=new MyClass(0); CONSTRUCTOR CODE; return c;} < 1185513915 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :messy code though < 1185513916 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it works < 1185513989 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a refactor is better. < 1185514003 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is ``Releases the value stream points to'' a good comment? :P < 1185514019 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because objects *are* technically references. < 1185514072 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno if Java coders understand references/pointers in their lexicon though. < 1185514139 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably ``releases the stream" would be better because java does not distinguish much between the reference and the object it refers to < 1185514162 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright. < 1185514172 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although when I code, I think of Objects as pointers though. < 1185514178 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's just my C background showing. < 1185514213 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: http://www.cecs.csulb.edu/~hill/cecs497/nestreme/howto.html <-- Havas unun bonan tempon. < 1185514240 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unu artikolo ke eksplenas la metodo pri krei unu emulatoro. < 1185514336 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vi kaj via esperanto. :p < 1185514397 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(One article that explains the method of creating one emulator. ?) < 1185514468 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1185514510 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :精神の安心為に、種類が必要と思う。 < 1185514530 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Question marks for everyone! < 1185514539 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not my fault you don't have UTF-8. < 1185514572 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i forgot, i actually thought you were totally bewildered about something :D < 1185514599 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the amount of bewilderment you see on IRC will go down if you get UTF-8 support working :P < 1185514604 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: i actually stopped making the emulator because sdl was just too hard for me to download :) < 1185514616 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it's just an apt-get... < 1185514622 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm convinced that UTF-8 support sucks in UNIX. < 1185514623 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they never *really* work. < 1185514634 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need libsdl and libsdl-dev. < 1185514649 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How hard is that? :P < 1185514671 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very, if i just ask for them to install themselves and they will < 1185514682 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can't link to them? < 1185514684 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i actually have to know where to put what, it gets quite hard < 1185514696 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never done *anything* with multiple files < 1185514699 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1185514701 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess sometimes < 1185514713 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_O Do you write a lot of code? < 1185514719 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the time < 1185514727 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You fit it into one file?! < 1185514743 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err yeah, i don't like having many < 1185514744 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1185514747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* < 1185514747 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..... < 1185514751 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, one file per application < 1185514754 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..... < 1185514756 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: That ain't right. < 1185514758 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1185514760 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That just ain't right. < 1185514781 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good luck having someone else read your code :P < 1185514786 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or making your code even somewhat modular. < 1185514791 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION really, really hates having locale set to en_US.UTF-8 and not having Unicode work at all
< 1185514808 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF-8 works like a beaut on me system har. < 1185514808 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: It's not all that hard. . . < 1185514809 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty modular, i don't see what that has to do with the fact i don't have multiple files < 1185514827 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: I've got USE="unicode", a Unicode local, and yet my terminal hates Unicode. < 1185514831 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's considered a Very Bad Thing (TM). < 1185514836 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it's not, i just never learned how to link other than one .cpp < 1185514839 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or .c < 1185514847 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc -c -o foo.o foo.c < 1185514851 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc -c -o bar.o bar.c < 1185514851 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except with an ide, but i don't have one in linux < 1185514854 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1185514857 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc bar.o foo.o -o foobar < 1185514871 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are the sdl-things .libs? < 1185514880 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you need to link anthing else, one adds it to the last command line. . . < 1185514887 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know how to use those in visual c++, but i'm guessing gcc does it a bit differently < 1185514893 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1185514899 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they're in /lib. < 1185514903 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i don't see how i would not succeed < 1185514903 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Attach the flag -LSDL IIRC. < 1185514905 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1185514908 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.lib < 1185514913 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather -Lsdl < 1185514917 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :library files < 1185514928 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, -lSDL < 1185514934 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: That's not how UNIX works. < 1185514963 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see. < 1185514974 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The libraries are under /lib or /usr/lib. . . To link to them, you just do -lLIBRARY_NAME. < 1185514989 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then, the dynamic linker magically takes care of the rest. < 1185514999 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C libraries are compiled to object files (.o and .so) and these object files are kept in a directory which is maintained by LD_CONFIG. You give gcc an -l flag and it includes the corresponding lib as neccessary. < 1185515023 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklogok: the -lFILENAME flag to ld (or gcc) will link the library called libFILENAME.so or libFILENAME.a which is somewhere on the search path, into your program. < 1185515033 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*oklofok < 1185515047 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is on unix < 1185515059 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on windows...not sure < 1185515091 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apt-get isn't the way to get libsdl < 1185515108 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apt-get install sdl-dev < 1185515115 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. . . I think. < 1185515128 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1185515143 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apt-cache search sdl < 1185515153 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aptitude is better. < 1185515157 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1185515160 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it resolves package removes in a nicer way. < 1185515166 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aptitude search sdl < 1185515169 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION uses Gentoo, anyways
< 1185515175 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slackware :P < 1185515186 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another good distro. < 1185515214 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea what to download there < 1185515224 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a lot of files. < 1185515225 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.... Read the package descriptions ... < 1185515343 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i get the rest of a description? < 1185515370 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Simple DirectMedia Layer development fil" might be it < 1185515392 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd be it. < 1185515553 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"unable to fetch some archives" < 1185515560 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess that's okay < 1185515560 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...? < 1185515565 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh. . . < 1185515571 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aptitude update < 1185515580 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When was the last time you did something like that? < 1185515614 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd be a long time ago. < 1185515618 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1185515635 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aptitude update&&aptitude upgrade; < 1185515635 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Some index files failed to download, they have been ignored, or old ones used instead." < 1185515642 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this, again, is from update. < 1185515642 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1185515651 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did you do? < 1185515693 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh error with connection or something < 1185515739 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fetched 2B in 6s (0B/s) < 1185515808 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do them seperately. ``aptitude update'' ``aptitude upgrade'' < 1185515847 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: "aptitude update&&aptitude upgrade" will only continue to aptitude upgrade if the aptitude update returns 0. < 1185515867 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. Hmph then. < 1185515882 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like BT's weird tracker request thinger. < 1185515900 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i did "apt-get update", aptitude *did* work < 1185515918 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea what aptitude is... but i guess it's like apt-get? < 1185515924 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bit better. < 1185515928 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a more full-featured version of apt-get. < 1185516007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1185516058 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How did BT even catch on, I can't understand. It's a mishmash of technologies. < 1185516106 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BitTorrent, you mean? < 1185516110 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea. < 1185516114 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magic, no doubt. < 1185516187 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. BitTorrent. < 1185516195 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...is there an alternative? < 1185516215 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Distributed IP over Avian Carrier. < 1185516233 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wouldn't be hard to write something cleaner than the BT standard. < 1185516317 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the reason people use it is that not everyone cares if its standard is ugly < 1185516326 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./ knows < 1185516329 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that there's nothing better, sadly. < 1185516345 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there actually something wrong with torrents? < 1185516349 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Writing a BT tracker must be a *royal* pain. < 1185516375 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The standard is heavily baroque. Part of it is CGI, part of it is a peer-wire protocol, another is a BT specific bencode protocol. < 1185516400 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unicode is evil < 1185516414 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, Unicode is most holy. < 1185516419 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pats the missionary.
< 1185516434 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, I come from Tcl, where Unicode is par for the course. < 1185516464 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only complaint I've seen articulated correctly against Unicode is Matz's objection. < 1185516465 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you must use unicode, you should at least have the decency to use UTF-32 < 1185516475 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(seriously: everything is a string, and every string is UTF-8) < 1185516603 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :varied width encodings-- < 1185516758 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incr {ASCII compatible character sets containing more writing systems than any other} < 1185517028 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that i have SDL, i wonder if i should also have sdl.h somewhere < 1185517069 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's SDL.h, but I'm not sure. < 1185517188 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be it either one of those, i can't find it < 1185518211 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: what's wrong with them? < 1185518229 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just don't like them < 1185518265 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you rather all words in a language be the same length, too? :) < 1185518342 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i'm learning tcl, and is that legal, incrementing a string? < 1185518347 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not < 1185518370 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you need to increment a _variable_? < 1185518421 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That *is* incrementing a variable. < 1185518437 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You type [incr var], not [incr $var]. < 1185518446 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it pretty inefficient having strings only? < 1185518479 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: The interpreter stores different representations of the string. . . < 1185518510 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're only using a variable as a number, you only are dealing with a C int. . . If you're only using a variable as a list, then you're only dealing with a list. < 1185518531 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It gets a different representation when you try to use it differently. < 1185518602 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis: To dereference that variable, BTW, one would type either ${{ASCII compatible character sets containing more writing systems than any other} or [set {ASCII compatible character sets containing more writing systems than any other}] < 1185518612 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/{{/{/ < 1185518652 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so variable names can contain spaces? < 1185518655 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1185518663 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you read the Tcl man page? < 1185518671 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but who would want a variable called "ASCII compatible character sets containing more writing systems than any other" < 1185518671 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1185518680 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea, but it's legal. < 1185518683 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read it. < 1185518687 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All 11 rules. < 1185518688 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably just "applicable_charsets" would do < 1185518693 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no man here < 1185518695 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for me < 1185518699 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no man(1) here < 1185518720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.4/TclCmd/Tcl.htm < 1185518745 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the full syntax and semantics of Tcl. . . Memorize it, and your Tcling will be better off. < 1185519047 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats a clever website name, tcl.tk < 1185519069 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. ;) < 1185519123 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume it has info on tcl/tk as well? < 1185519159 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION would go to the website if he actually wanted to know that.
< 1185519173 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's the offical Tcl/Tk website. < 1185519176 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but immibis doesn't have tcl on this computer < 1185519194 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* I don't < 1185519305 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Download a Tclkit. < 1185519334 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks he's already gone over the "limit" on his "unlimited download" connection though.
< 1185519350 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is crazy, really < 1185519433 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very. < 1185519486 0 :toBogE!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1185519506 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can ask greasemonkey about that, he appears to have the same isp, i have to go now. < 1185519509 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1185519510 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day" < 1185521160 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does TCL have live objects? < 1185521210 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"live"? < 1185521217 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like Smalltalk and Lisp. < 1185521228 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. . . That doesn't help me. < 1185521232 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... :P < 1185521238 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fully introspective at runtime? < 1185521245 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On-the-fly editable? < 1185521253 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1185521262 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Duh. < 1185521278 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's something it's had from day one. < 1185521307 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: can you fuck around with the execution stack? < 1185521314 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was my next question. < 1185521317 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it accessible as a first-class object of some kind? < 1185521326 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, no. < 1185521330 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boo < 1185521343 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One can go and pull variables from things up the stack, though. . . < 1185521348 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are blocks/methods first class objects? < 1185521362 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not yet. < 1185521373 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :``Not yet'' ? < 1185521375 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, really? < 1185521384 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Planned for Tcl 9. . . < 1185521385 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those { blah } things aren't first-claass? < 1185521390 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1185521391 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just syntax? < 1185521396 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those aren't blocks, those are *strings*. < 1185521409 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I misinterpreted you. < 1185521412 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you can execute strings... < 1185521418 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that basically makes them blocks too, doesn't it < 1185521427 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since everything's a string anyway... < 1185521428 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1185521435 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are first-class. < 1185521437 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My bad. < 1185521441 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so tcl does have blocks :) < 1185521444 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, if only Tcl had Smalltalk style syntax ... :P < 1185521464 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Io is a very nice language, by the way. < 1185521465 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you specify function signatures in tcl? < 1185521493 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could you do me a favor and use terminology I can find via Wikipedia? < 1185521507 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia's CS articles are woefully bad :P < 1185521514 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, can you specify how many arguments the function has < 1185521518 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1185521530 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you do that for a string? :) < 1185521537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proc foo {arg1 arg2 arg3} {# code here} < 1185521575 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly does proc do? < 1185521588 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Defines a function. < 1185521603 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To call that function: foo arg1 arg2 arg3 < 1185521625 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proc itself is a builtin function? < 1185521630 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1185521633 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it do? < 1185521646 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it create a variable called foo and put the function in it? < 1185521650 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. . . < 1185521662 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functions, unfortunately, aren't first class. < 1185521665 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1185521666 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1185521927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*That* is what's planned for Tcl 9. < 1185521927 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like ruby! < 1185521927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, functions can only be passed by reference ATM. < 1185521927 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a lame shortcoming :| < 1185521927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or, of course, you can do some radical language modification, adding anonymous functions) < 1185521927 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pass-by-reference/pointer stuff is so ugly < 1185521927 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newMethod := method(x, x + 2) < 1185521927 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was Io. < 1185521927 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1185521927 0 :GreaseMonkey_!n=saru@222-154-141-161.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1185521927 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Io is nice but some design decisions seemed silly < 1185521927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proc newMethod x {return [+ $x 2]} < 1185521927 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only decision I think was silly was the decision to nix the ST syntax. < 1185521927 0 :GreaseMonkey_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :GreaseMonkey < 1185521927 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: actually yes, thats one of mine < 1185521927 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newMethod := [ :x | x + 2] is nicer, IMO. < 1185521927 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Io's method calling is much less pretty than smalltalk-style would be < 1185521927 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that < 1185521927 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Wanna fork Io to use ST style? < 1185521927 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, why? < 1185521927 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ST is there, no? < 1185521927 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But most ST implementations ... erm... suck? :P < 1185521927 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose the difference is Io is not supposed to be inside a virtual computer < 1185521927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One can actually take advantage of the Tcl pass-by-reference procs. . . < 1185521927 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus, you can't play around as nicely with live objects if you don't have a prototype based system. < 1185521927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proc lambda {argl body} {K [info level 0] [proc [info level 0] $argl $body]} proc K {a b} {set a} < 1185521927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleh. That didn't paste right. < 1185521927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proc lambda {argl body} {K [info level 0] [proc [info level 0] $argl $body]};proc K {a b} {set a} < 1185521927 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: i wonder how difficult completely changing the syntax of Io would be :) < 1185521927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Voila. A lambda function which returns a reference to a function. < 1185521946 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Hm. Do you know a lot about VM design? < 1185521952 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, you can help out the Slate team. < 1185521952 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: I've seen plugins for Squeak that changed the syntax of Smalltalk < 1185521960 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1185521966 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used to hang out in that channel some years ago < 1185521977 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back when it was actually being developed < 1185521979 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bit hackish, in that it creates named procs. . . < 1185521985 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That must have been glorious. < 1185522000 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's died, now that the main VM developer has left in a sonorous case of OSS angst. < 1185522001 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and recently i just randomly checked #slate logs and saw a conversation between you and water < 1185522009 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1185522009 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about how slate is dead :( < 1185522034 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure if it was all that glorious < 1185522041 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was exactly one developer < 1185522047 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as i can tell < 1185522047 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1185522057 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the channel was basically water and that guy < 1185522085 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had made a syntax highlighting mode for Slate for Nedit :) < 1185522088 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you seen Piumarta's new Coke stuff? < 1185522107 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no... haven't heard of piumarta or coke < 1185522208 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: http://www.tcl.tk/cgi-bin/tct/tip/187.html < 1185522214 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've recently become disillusioned in Python, and now would be interested in another language < 1185522224 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Io seems nice in general < 1185522243 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but perhaps not good enough syntax to be useful < 1185522294 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should try actually writing something in it? < 1185522349 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i will < 1185522432 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wiki.tcl.tk/10743 < 1185522439 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION bows before that god
< 1185522796 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, io is actually really pretty < 1185522821 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Account deposit := method(amount, balance = balance + amount < 1185522823 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1185522929 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proc deposit {amount} {balance} {incr balance $amount;return $balance};# Only meaningful in Jim, which is Tcl + closures + lambda < 1185522950 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rrright :) < 1185523199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1185523200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1185523312 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *really* feel like coding an emulator. < 1185523319 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, I wanna work in a group. < 1185523321 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1185523443 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing I don't like about Io is that it's FFI is pretty bleh. < 1185523566 0 :GreaseMonkey_!n=saru@222-154-141-161.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1185523575 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1185523585 0 :GreaseMonkey_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1185523597 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FFI? < 1185523641 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foreign Function Interface. < 1185523677 0 :GreaseMonkey!n=saru@222-154-141-161.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1185524013 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1185524050 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :io list syntax is ugly :) < 1185524456 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a surprising thing. Why doesen't Java have an OctetString class? < 1185524464 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OctetStrings are useful on many occasions, methinks. < 1185524646 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foo := Object clone < 1185524646 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foo clone := Foo < 1185524650 0 :^_`!n=saru@222-154-141-161.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1185524650 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hee :) < 1185524753 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1185524758 0 :^_`!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :GreaseMonkey < 1185526434 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What interface do you implement to use the addition operator? < 1185526450 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Java, of course. < 1185526515 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, why do you insist on using java :( < 1185526523 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: ? < 1185526529 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did you mean < 1185526554 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean, how do you overload operator + for a class of your own? < 1185526564 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, you can't, of course < 1185526583 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1185526586 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How lhame. < 1185526601 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :java does that sometimes < 1185526628 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think java's separation of primitives and objects is quite pretty < 1185526640 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(don't get me wrong, i hate java) < 1185527672 0 :^_`!n=saru@222-154-141-161.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1185527756 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1185527874 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? I don't like its seperation of primitives and objects. < 1185528355 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeahs, why do you like that? < 1185528405 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it is a bit of a thin wrapper on top of C, which is the only advantage I see. < 1185528441 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, any C coder can think of Object blah = new Object(); to translate to void *blah; blah = malloc(sizeof(blah)); if (blah == NULL) { ... } < 1185528577 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, obviously there's the business of the constructor, but the idea is the same. < 1185528755 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you saying? < 1185528858 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh? < 1185528872 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you understand C, the meaning there should be obvious. < 1185528943 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < Sukoshi> I mean, any C coder can think of Object blah = new Object(); to translate < 1185528946 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : to void *blah; blah = malloc(sizeof(blah)); if (blah == NULL) { ... } < 1185528949 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so? < 1185528969 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: i just do like it. < 1185528987 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Well, it is a bit of a thin wrapper on top of C, which is the only advantage I see. < 1185528995 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reading is a skill :) < 1185529001 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i read that < 1185529008 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There you go then. < 1185529050 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you said would mean the sepperation of objects and primitives is unwarrented < 1185529072 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO it is. < 1185529122 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a separation is needless, true, but it's a good separation. < 1185529137 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now anime time. Yay. < 1185529142 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, sepperation, because that's like 50 times cooler way to type it. < 1185529260 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'morning, everyone. < 1185529271 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err... evening < 1185529299 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1185529317 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 4:40 AM where I'm sitting < 1185529325 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a big hole in my pants... that's not good, there are my only pants < 1185529330 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 11:40 here < 1185529362 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: hm. holy pants could prove problematic. < 1185529375 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's the hole? < 1185529378 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that joke only works when spoken < 1185529383 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in the crotch. < 1185529398 0 :^_`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1185529399 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I've got a hole... in my PANTS..." < 1185529482 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not visible < 1185529497 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just afraid they might break completely < 1185529499 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in public < 1185529501 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or smth < 1185529515 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :going camping for a week tomorrow *shiver* < 1185529524 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: I just had an idea. I was thinking about sewing methods for pant repair, and I realized that you could make a knitting-based esolang < 1185529537 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: camping can be fun sometimes < 1185529552 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially naked camping! < 1185529553 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but not if your ex is there and she hates you < 1185529554 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as there are no stinging insects and it isn't burning hot < 1185529566 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, that could make it less fun < 1185529576 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you forced to go camping with your ex? < 1185529584 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is a scouter-boy
< 1185529601 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1185529603 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1185529616 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you spend a long time with people, you're bound to nail a few of them < 1185529671 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hot is okay, insects are okay, naked is okay, what is not okay is the fact my computer isn't there < 1185529687 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :build one < 1185529704 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a bad idea < 1185529731 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :figure out how to make a few gates with sticks < 1185529737 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pretty sure i could at least build an fsm of some sort from just like branches < 1185529739 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1185529741 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sticks < 1185529743 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noodles < 1185529768 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I go camping I generally either survive by playing with my palm pilot (which conveniently has BF and BASIC interpreters), woodcarving or playing board games like RISK with my friends < 1185529779 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me and a friend made 'or' and 'and' with rubber bands and chop sticks < 1185529788 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: you could also try being social < 1185529800 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we were gonna make a 'xor', but the way we implemented them, it would've taken a while < 1185529811 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did you do it? < 1185529811 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: i can do that... for a few days < 1185529828 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it's a bit complicated... < 1185529835 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, at least the way we did it < 1185529847 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... basically first we built see-saws < 1185529861 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, you have a horizontal stick with another on top of it < 1185529865 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1185529872 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can press down the other end and the other goes up < 1185529881 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, we make 3 of there < 1185529882 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*these < 1185529897 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and attache them so that there is a joint with all three of them in the middle < 1185529906 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is one of the most insane articles I've seen on slashdot in a while? < 1185529910 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can easily make 'or'/'and' that way < 1185529915 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/?/: < 1185529916 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://blogs.nature.com/climatefeedback/2007/07/google_turns_to_the_dark_side.html < 1185529924 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and xor is trivial if you have those < 1185529927 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1185529934 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't get it < 1185529944 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on an LCD, the color displayed on the screen has no impact on power usage! aargh < 1185529953 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it gets problematic with multiple gates, since you have to put in weights everywhere, and everything affects anything < 1185529984 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: what don't you get? if i just try to explain again, i'll say the same thing. < 1185529998 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, unless instructed what to clear up < 1185530000 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the joining 3 see saws in the middle < 1185530007 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. a clever design, but without scalability it's a very limited system < 1185530007 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1185530017 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have two of them be input < 1185530021 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on output < 1185530033 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or: you have input's be under output < 1185530043 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1185530051 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and: you have inputs be over output < 1185530070 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and a weight on the other side? < 1185530082 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you attach weights so that a seesaw will be in a certain position if no external weigth is given < 1185530085 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, exactly < 1185530088 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is needed for and < 1185530092 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'and' < 1185530110 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, you see how this isn't a very modular solution < 1185530212 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those gates will just be able to evaluate simple logic expressions since they work simultaneously < 1185530228 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, when you give input, the output is there at the speed of sound, of course < 1185530243 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should put our heads together to come up with a more scalable gate design, and then you can use it to make a 4-bit adder or something < 1185530279 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's ways to make the levers better < 1185530283 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want something you can program in, you need something that evaluates in *cycles* < 1185530313 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, not just calculates as you put input, like a gate system like that would < 1185530329 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could easily write any adder on that, if you just have the time :P < 1185530333 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that just needs gates that self-reset without a constant input, and then a clock-pulsing system of some kind < 1185530342 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can program it be rearanging the levers < 1185530389 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we tried to figure out a way to get the program "flow", but when you just have rubber bands and sticks, that is a bit of a problem < 1185530408 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean? < 1185530429 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, that it can, for example, have a loop < 1185530483 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :addition can be done on a finite gate system, but that's pretty much it < 1185530488 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like that would just trend towards a balance between the gates < 1185530497 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need a constant motive force input < 1185530507 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err yes, that's what i've been trying to say :) < 1185530527 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1185530529 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the energy can come from the clock < 1185530542 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, a pretty tc-ish system could easily be created just it you could transmit the result back to the input ports < 1185530559 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't have to be turing complete to pass the time < 1185530560 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: yeah, so we need to design a clock or potentially an amplifier < 1185530564 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: the idea was to have just rubber bands and sticks :) < 1185530577 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: nooooo, stay *band+stick*! < 1185530578 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: clock = finger pressing on a stick < 1185530581 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1185530586 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that is okay < 1185530592 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we could come up with a mechanical amplifier, it could add the needed energy to the system < 1185530607 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: can we use rocks and possibly string as well? < 1185530635 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, absolutely, if those will help us get to the cycle level of computation < 1185530659 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, almost any cycle system will be programmable < 1185530678 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. so, a mechanical amplifier... < 1185530686 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lever, of course < 1185530694 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bingo < 1185530707 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you explain what that would do physically? < 1185530734 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm thinking about a system where input is given, then something is done to get the output back to the input ports < 1185530756 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then try to figure out how to do the information flow there < 1185530764 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do that by hanging string from above < 1185530789 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about some kind of pendulum system generating a periodic on/off stick flip? < 1185530791 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1185530827 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: might is well just use some cyclic finger tapping < 1185530868 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so when the output happens, strings are pulled or left loose, and when the pendulum does a swing, whether they were loose or not will then pull on the strings attached to the input? < 1185530884 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I were out in the wilderness, I'd bring along spools of magnet wire, some iron nails, and some cups. < 1185530902 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The challenge: Create a telephone system that broadcasts as far as possible. < 1185530909 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prove the math along the way for extra fun and profit. < 1185530935 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you make a speaker/microphone out of those materials? < 1185530935 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good idea < 1185530940 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :charcoal? < 1185530941 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gimme your number and i can test < 1185530943 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1185530951 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: with a system of coils and electromagnets, you might be able to build relay logic! < 1185530962 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm more of an RF geek, sorry :P < 1185530969 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aw. :( < 1185531017 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You run the wire through the cup. As you speak into the cup, it acts like a waveguide that causes the copper to vibrate. The copper has to vibrate in the presence of an electromagnet to create a changing magnetic flux upon the wire, and cause current to flow along it. You run that through an antenna you make out of more wire, et voila. < 1185531047 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and... it will actually be a wireless phone? < 1185531058 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The receiver works similarly, except that you have to have current running in the receiver wire as well, so that the changes in magnetic flux will create repulsion in the wires. < 1185531062 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course oklofok. < 1185531066 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be very tricky without some form of amplification, but the principle is quite workable < 1185531069 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where do you get the current for the electromagnet? < 1185531074 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Battery. < 1185531078 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1185531080 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yeah, I left that out.) < 1185531085 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought induction current < 1185531087 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's less cool < 1185531091 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that interesting then < 1185531094 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never actually read the original Bell telephone spec, but I know enough electrics to build it myself. < 1185531099 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... okay, it's trivial making a dynamo < 1185531099 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, you could do it with a permanent magnet maybe < 1185531106 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you already have all those things < 1185531110 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where are you going to generate the force to create a large enough current? < 1185531121 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err.... with a magnet? < 1185531121 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hand crank < 1185531125 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you could be moving a permanent magnet back and forth through a coil as an energy source. It'd be hilarious < 1185531128 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Huh? < 1185531141 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the problem is, the source has to be direct current. < 1185531147 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dayum < 1185531148 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1185531150 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't think of that < 1185531160 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a bit trickier < 1185531160 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or else you'll have the magnetic field oscillating, and that'll produce extra anoyances. < 1185531162 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bell made a pressure-sensitive resistor out of powdered carbon < 1185531178 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reading about it takes away 90% of the fun :|. < 1185531182 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you can turn AC into DC a couple of ways... you could fabricate capacitors and diodes out of relatively common materials < 1185531183 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sound compresses the carbon, lowering resistance < 1185531191 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AC to DC is a breeze. < 1185531192 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how could you make a diode? < 1185531199 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, but anyway, a rotating magnet will provide quite a lot of power, it will just need you to rotate it yourself... for which you need a wheel of some sort... < 1185531205 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: gap-junction diode < 1185531210 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and capacitors would need to be huge < 1185531213 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: It probably wouldn't. < 1185531224 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like in a razorblade radio or a pencil-lead radio < 1185531232 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your typical magnet is 10G. Not even close to anything much < 1185531232 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1185531244 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two dissimilar conductive materials can function as a diode in the right configuration < 1185531250 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: not familiar < 1185531280 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: have more loops in your coil < 1185531281 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 G = .001 T, by the way. < 1185531291 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can make a solar cell out of copper and salt water < 1185531295 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Find the maximum of the function. You'll find it's not much. < 1185531314 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: http://members.aol.com/djadamson7/articles/foxhole.html < 1185531331 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :physics... math... urgh < 1185531340 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and heat < 1185531345 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. I didn't know the copper+salt water trick. How much power do you get out of one? < 1185531355 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Science - math = phail. < 1185531360 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: very, very, little < 1185531366 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is it a real solar cell, or does it just work by corroding the copper? < 1185531369 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: physics + _ = phail < 1185531376 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno < 1185531396 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you oxidize one pole of it with the heat < 1185531401 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, who said you have to have a *typical* magnet? and what is T? < 1185531404 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used a blow torche < 1185531419 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Where are you going to get a magnet like that from? < 1185531429 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That can generate appreciable current? < 1185531430 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would a "typical" magnet be a lodestone? < 1185531445 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1185531445 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: it's not about the magnet, it's about the coil < 1185531454 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: might work better just to make a thermocouple if you have a blowtorch. < 1185531460 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: It's not about the coil, it's about the flux. < 1185531480 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can only fit so many coils in so small a space -- if you coil it too much, you need the flux to be as big *anyways*. < 1185531485 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err... yeah, but it's a direct increase in current if you add loops. < 1185531504 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only if they're in the flux. < 1185531516 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the magnet creates the flux.. < 1185531520 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even a fire, actually. You could directly generate quite a bit of current with a good thermocouple system heated in a good fire. < 1185531523 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not an inifinite field. < 1185531533 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes it more practical than a blowtorch in the woods < 1185531543 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you actually know you can't coil up a decent current with a small magnet? < 1185531544 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or else you could build awesome generators with a magnet and massive amounts of coils --> Dun work that way. < 1185531556 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1185531562 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how generators are made < 1185531573 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They use things like water and steam to push them. < 1185531577 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a person's hands :P < 1185531598 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err yes, but we're creating the amount of current a battery creates < 1185531611 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not electricity for the whole town < 1185531611 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I said, do the math if you don't believe me *shrug*. < 1185531651 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The rate of flux change is huge, and so the < 1185531653 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Errr... < 1185531659 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. XChat failure. < 1185531660 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1185531662 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, more anime time. < 1185531664 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1185531666 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::\} < 1185531676 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you finish that sentence first :P < 1185531694 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what animes are being watched? < 1185531734 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sukoshi: if i feel like relearning how to do those boring physics calculations, i'll calculate that < 1185531915 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish there were blueprints for the Z1 available online. I'm sure they'd give us some ideas for our stick-band computer < 1185531943 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what mechanism did it use? < 1185531950 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rod logic < 1185531966 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beyond that, I don't know much < 1185531990 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it represented bits in memory with mechanical rods that could slide back and forth in two positions < 1185532005 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1185532015 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand how the machine functions on a systemic level, but there isn't much information on the mechanical details < 1185532067 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would it take to build a transistor? < 1185532083 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1185532134 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, a better question might be asking how to build an amplifier. Vacuum tubes, Relays and transistors all do essentially the same thing- they modulate a powerful signal based on a weak one < 1185532192 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relays and transistors are easier to work with because they're strictly binary, whereas tubes are analog < 1185532197 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, i gotta get me some sticks and bands... < 1185532447 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too, i'll play around with it in the morning < 1185533278 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, i just realized i have like a ton of both < 1185533313 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta practice a bit though < 1185533318 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these look quite ugly :P < 1185533391 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my friend once made a gun out of these that shot a stick meters < 1185533400 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same guy i did the ports with < 1185533422 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not that hard, but it's pretty fun making stuff out of there < 1185533424 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*these < 1185533476 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno if i'll be able to find stuff for it < 1185533628 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1185534524 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first stick broken, 0 gates done. < 1185534539 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how the hell did we make those ports that pretty... < 1185534543 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gates < 1185537201 0 :ehird`!n=test@user-514f618c.l4.c3.dsl.pol.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1185541353 0 :RedDak!n=dak@host173-81-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1185544411 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1185544411 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1185544411 0 :meatmanek!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1185544425 0 :meatmanek!n=meatmane@cpe-65-29-79-179.indy.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1185544425 0 :sp3tt!n=sp3tt@80-162.cust.umeaenergi.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1185544425 0 :oklopol!n=ville@194.251.103.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1185544437 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1185544513 0 :fizzie!n=fis@sesefras.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1185546269 0 :Tritonio!n=Tritonio@athedsl-136788.home.otenet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1185547936 0 :Tritonio!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1185550935 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't sleep last night and now i fell better than when i do sleep < 1185551349 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i can't find anything to do lever-logic with < 1185552765 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"lever-logic"? < 1185552824 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define SIX 1 + 5 < 1185552824 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define NINE 8 + 1 < 1185552824 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while (SIX * NINE == 42) {...} < 1185552826 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1185552854 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: what is your design? < 1185552866 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird`: we've all seen that before < 1185552875 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, well i haven't, so bleh =P < 1185553056 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's better than #define the_pope_is_catholic 1; while (the_pope_is_catholic) and #define until(x) while (!(x)); #define hell_freezes_over 0; do { ... } until(hell_freezes_over) < 1185553062 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i felt justified in pasting it here. < 1185553547 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: logic with levers < 1185553567 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: like oklofok and RodgerTheGreat and me were talking about < 1185553629 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-33-81.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1185554176 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION makes mental note to clear up space to make rube goldberg machine computer
< 1185554249 0 :atrapado!n=teu@udc-cesga.udc.es JOIN :#esoteric < 1185554866 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evil. < 1185555048 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1185555072 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rube Goldberg computation is evil cause I say so. < 1185555263 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1185555576 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, No, it's fun! < 1185555583 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want tennis balls to compute 2 + 3! < 1185555644 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should start simple, like a calculator that can only add and subtract :P < 1185555661 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't make it any less evil. < 1185556319 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with any mechanical computer is how to amplify < 1185556342 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't forget there is such a thing as a "torque amplifier" < 1185556860 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After more than five years of searching, I have found it! < 1185556861 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://drgoulu.wordpress.com/2005/12/29/eviteur-daxe/ < 1185556862 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the legendary "shaft-passer", that allows one shaft to pass through another < 1185556863 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Despite the name, it is not a snark but really exists. < 1185557054 0 :RedDak!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1185557265 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh bo;y < 1185557313 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1185557349 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the shaft-passer < 1185557388 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now make one that's rigid in 3 dimensions < 1185558392 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-080-228-179-026.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1185558850 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1185559358 0 :RodgerTheGreat_!n=Rodger@rover-93-71.rovernet.mtu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1185559892 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1185561417 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"tempo!" < 1185563544 0 :pikhq_!n=pikhq@209.248.125.179 JOIN :#esoteric < 1185563775 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1185563874 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :pikhq < 1185565509 0 :RodgerTheGreat_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1185565694 0 :ihope!n=ihope@tapthru/resident/ihope JOIN :#esoteric < 1185566099 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1185566101 0 :lament!n=lament@S010600110999ad06.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1185566117 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1185566130 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:53 [freenode] -!- ####esoteric ###esoteric Forwarding to another channel < 1185566130 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:53 [freenode] -!- ###esoteric ##esoteric Forwarding to another channel < 1185566130 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:53 [freenode] -!- ##esoteric #esoteric Forwarding to another channel < 1185566159 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahah. < 1185566174 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone been having fun with chanserv? < 1185566908 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, i was complaining io's list syntax was ugly < 1185566912 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://iota.flowsnake.org/syntax-extensions.html < 1185568030 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somebody should make an ascii movie based on those redirections < 1185568038 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :redirect to the next line of the frame < 1185569149 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: you still haven't created #####esoteric! < 1185569186 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION growls about how binary operators in many OOP languages are fundamentally broken
< 1185569196 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X op Y - if X doesn't respond to op, try Y op X damnit! < 1185569211 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then "" . num . "blah" would just be num . "blah" < 1185569235 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION growls about how the idea of operators is broken. . .
< 1185569257 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1185569265 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION growls about how messages are broken
< 1185569267 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generic functions FTW < 1185569275 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that solves that problem actually < 1185569285 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x + y is just +(x y) < 1185569291 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[+ x y] < 1185569294 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err. < 1185569307 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[+ $x $y];#forgot the dereference < 1185569317 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tcl is hardly a purely object-oriented language with binary operators built in and generic functions :) < 1185569324 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[incr Tcl] doesn't count =P < 1185569325 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no. . . < 1185569339 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't *have* an object system. . . < 1185569376 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And binary operators? Well, Tcl 8.5 gets arithmetic functions that can be used in place of expr. . . < 1185569387 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah yeah whatever :P < 1185569393 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still not relevant, in the context of what i was saying < 1185569411 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Perfect language: Prototype-based OOP, with generic functions, and NO damn messages!) < 1185569414 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(honestly, whose idea was it to have a function which evaluates infix statements rather than just some arithmetic functions?) < 1185569423 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, an idiots < 1185569425 0 :RedDak!n=dak@host173-81-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1185569433 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*an idiot's < 1185569437 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1185569449 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus they wanted to keep their precious parsing spec so small because that is much more important than readability of code. < 1185569464 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find Tcl to be damned readable, actually. . . < 1185569522 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly, yes. < 1185569529 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But some idiosyncracies can make it annoying < 1185569564 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially their insistance on making everything a function, even when it is really ugly as a function < 1185569576 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Example? < 1185569618 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of their control structures < 1185569628 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, that's not ugly. . . < 1185569644 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sort of code-data-happy attitude only works when your code is structured in a data-like way < 1185569648 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if {expr-statement-here} {code-which-is-uplevel'd} < 1185569648 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strings are not. < 1185569663 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's ugly in theory at least. < 1185569665 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not looks. < 1185569680 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION still doesn't see what's ugly about it
< 1185569726 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All if does is do an uplevel if that expr statement returns true. . . < 1185569814 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, my idea of a perfect OOP language is flawed - generic functions don't work well with prototype inheritance < 1185569996 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK: how about in obj message(obj2), if not obj responds_to(message) (or something) it's interpreted as obj2 message(obj) < 1185569998 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's nicely generic < 1185570013 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though it allows for insanely obfuscated code... I think that's a good thing < 1185570086 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hello!\n" print(stdout) < 1185570086 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stdout print("Hello!\n") would be equivilent, i think that's nice < 1185570187 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wait, that won't work < 1185570199 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :99 . " bottles of beer" would be " bottles of beer" . 99 < 1185570210 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :annoying < 1185575901 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"CommandQ" < 1185576849 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need proper generic functions < 1185577061 0 :pikhq_!n=pikhq@209.248.125.179 JOIN :#esoteric < 1185577110 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a simple idea for a reversible esolang. < 1185577150 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll put it on wiki. < 1185577156 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I think I'll call everything "wiki". < 1185577161 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reversible? < 1185577317 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, reversible. < 1185577383 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1185578355 0 :RedDak!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I'm quitting... Bye all" < 1185578886 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, floral wire, twisted into i-hook like shapes, pressed into corkboard for fulcrums < 1185578894 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with toothpicks as the levers < 1185579043 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define: "i-hook" < 1185579058 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it calculate? < 1185579114 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://img.alibaba.com/photo/50205808/Hook_and_Eye_Hook.jpg < 1185579120 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SE2 is an i-hook < 1185579154 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean "eye-hook" < 1185579156 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1185579163 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...whatever < 1185579175 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is so-called because it has an eye like a needle has an eye < 1185579201 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering just HTF something the shape of the letter i would be a "hook" < 1185579230 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never seen eye-hook in print < 1185579231 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iHook < 1185579247 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1185579295 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually aplle have patented the iBrick < 1185579324 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically, they have a patent on the mechanism of a device refusing to charge if it detecs you using it with more that one computer. < 1185579327 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1185579340 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tech support are going to *love* tht one < 1185580003 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :pikhq < 1185580013 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"dowdow" < 1185580205 0 :RodgerTheGreat!n=Rodger@wads-5-232-125.resnet.mtu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1185580219 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :howdy, everybody < 1185580312 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1185580450 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, bsmntbombdood < 1185580452 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'sup? < 1185580465 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :been trying to build some levers < 1185580575 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, the mechanical logic project continues < 1185580791 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been using toothepicks resting on other toothepicks, it's very fragile and almost impossible to chain gates