00:00:08 !persist regex load 00:00:08 Cannot register regex 00:00:11 Huh? 00:00:17 oops wrong channel 00:00:17 sorry 00:00:26 meant to do it in #toboge 00:04:33 is toboge an egobot clone or something 00:05:55 He's trying to outcompete with EgoBot :( 00:05:58 Damn evolution! 00:06:26 GregorR: you have gone too long without adding new languages :/ 00:07:06 -!- immibis_ has joined. 00:08:34 oerjan: People haven't been very persistent in telling me to add them :P 00:09:04 add some non-esoteric languages 00:09:25 I won't add any languages with file I/O, and most non-esolangs have that. 00:09:50 do scheme without filezors 00:10:49 there are only a few file operators that you have to remove 00:11:51 * ehird` thinks blahbot is supreme! 00:11:56 yes i am! 00:12:01 i do all sorts of things! 00:12:08 but not everything quite yet. 00:12:11 just wrap the code in something like: (define (fuck-you . ignored) (write-to-channel "fuck you, hax0r")) (let ((with-output-file fuck-you) et cetra) ...) 00:12:26 Interesting. 00:12:55 * ihope continues pondering stuff 00:13:30 \x is a function from a to a binder of x to a... 00:13:46 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_sec_6.6.1 00:13:52 those are the relevent functions 00:13:54 x is an a given a binding of x to a. 00:14:02 -!- immibis has quit (Nick collision from services.). 00:14:05 -!- immibis_ has quit (Nick collision from services.). 00:14:09 -!- immibis has joined. 00:14:39 \x :: all a. a -> Bind \x\ a 00:15:18 if anyone could tell me how to fix my connection, that would be useful. 00:15:24 x :: [x : a] => a 00:15:31 -!- toBogE has quit (Nick collision from services.). 00:15:35 immibis: duct tape. 00:16:28 call-with-input-file, call-with-output-file, with-input-from-file, with-output-to-file, open-input-file, open-output-file, load, transcript-on 00:16:33 that's all you need to overload 00:16:56 Er, \x\ : a, not x : a. 00:17:55 \x :: all a. a -> Bind \x\ a; x :: [x : a] => a; (::) :: a -> * -> Dec; 00:17:57 bsmntbombdood: _provided_ he knows his scheme implementation has no i/o extensions. 00:18:00 Er. 00:18:55 oerjan: so he just needs to read his implementation's docs 00:19:43 ihope: seems kinda authmathy 00:19:45 er 00:19:47 automathy 00:19:55 edwardk: automathy? 00:19:55 or he could write his own scheme and be absolutely sure 00:20:09 bsmntbombdood: he could write himself a Scheme in 48 hours! 00:20:17 like automath, the grand-daddy of modern functional languages 00:20:32 on the non-lisp side of the family tree ;) 00:20:56 where we got this strange notion of type systems from, etc =) 00:20:59 and not miss anything that puts surprising I/O access into an "obviously" safe place. 00:22:04 \x :: all (\a. a -> Bind \x\ a); x :: all (\a. [\x\ : a] => a); (::) :: all (\a. a -> * -> Dec); all :: all (\a. (a -> *) -> *); * :: *; \x\ :: Id; Bind :: Id -> *-> *; Id :: *; (:) :: Id -> * -> Req; (=>) :: List Req -> * -> *; List :: * -> *; Req :: * 00:23:41 Oh, and (.) :: all (\a. all (\i. (a -> Bind i a) -> [i : a] => b -> a -> b)) 00:23:52 And Dec :: * 00:24:48 And then there's let... 00:25:45 what are you doing? 00:26:06 Trying to invent a language. 00:26:14 Of the programming kind. 00:28:43 ihope: sorry for the late reply, but how can duct tape ensure a wireless connection stays connected? 00:28:56 immibis: duct tape'll connect anything! 00:29:10 even a wireless connection? 00:29:23 even a wireless, ducttapeless connection? 00:29:43 Sure. 00:29:54 See if you can find wireless duct tape. 00:31:27 ihope: see if you can find wired duct tape 00:37:38 -!- toBogE has joined. 00:43:06 all the bizarre bits of Haskell suppoert one another 00:43:17 without type inference, monads are useless 00:43:29 hell, without types they are useless 00:43:55 i am not quite sure of that. 00:44:44 GregorR: scheme scheme scheme scheme 00:44:46 you _could_ have objects with a bind method. 00:46:32 But it is a PITA to have to write type sigs all over the place 00:47:10 >> is ploymorphic remember 00:47:12 i am talking about in a dynamically typed language 00:47:39 >> would call the bind method of its left argument. 00:47:51 but think of all those functions which work for any monad 00:48:01 how would you do those? 00:48:29 liftM :: a -> b -> m a -> m b 00:48:51 that's not right 00:49:01 yes it is 00:49:28 well... 00:49:30 forall a1 r (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => (a1 -> r) -> m a1 -> m r 00:50:14 or, in pseudo-Haskell: 00:50:20 clone :: a -> a 00:50:27 anyway, liftM f x = x.bind(\t -> return (f x)) 00:50:31 write the type signature for *that* 00:50:46 oerjan: I know that, but that is verbose 00:51:12 well, first you have x >>= f = x.bind(f), of course. 00:51:32 I see things like: 00:52:08 readThingy >>= liftM (+2) >>= writeThingy 00:52:49 in the IO monad that is: 00:53:12 -!- immibis has quit ("Download IceChat at www.icechat.net"). 00:53:22 -!- toBogE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:53:26 SimonRC: i meant to make liftM f x a _function_ 00:53:33 defined by the right hand side 00:53:50 *liftM 00:53:51 ah, wait, i can see how that might work 00:54:07 i actually thought about this before a bit 00:54:32 It is occasionally handy to be able to dispatch on return type 00:55:05 yes, that is hard to get. also, this method works only for monads strict in the left argument of >>= 00:55:18 but it does work for a number of monads. 00:55:21 How would one go about writing enumFromTo? 00:55:43 :: forall a. (Enum a) => a -> a -> [a] 00:55:43 that would be a method too, of course. 00:55:57 ah, I can see how this works 00:56:08 Scala has operators as methods of their first argument. 00:56:40 it also has a bit of comprehension syntax, which is thinly disguised monads. 00:56:56 although the type system doesn't support the full concept. 00:57:15 ok, now a pathalogical example: "makeIntoZeros = map (\x -> 0)" 00:58:04 :: forall a, n. (Num n) => [a] -> [n] 00:58:09 btw you can /msg lambdabot 00:58:11 does haskell allow variadic functions? 00:58:25 bsmntbombdood: kkinda 00:58:27 bsmntbombdood: in some cases you can do it with type classes 00:58:34 printf exists, for example 00:58:44 it conflicts interestingly with currying 00:59:12 basically, the final result of the function cannot be a function, i guess 00:59:21 ah, no... 00:59:46 the problem is if there is a type in the return value that cannot be deduced from the arguments 01:00:01 hm? 01:00:17 e.g. 0 :: (Num n) => n 01:00:17 printf is polymorphic on the return value :D 01:00:40 oh, i thought you were still talking about variadic functions 01:01:03 ad many of the types that are in one sense types of arguments end up as part of the type of the return value when you start currying. 01:01:11 e.g. readThingy >>= liftM (+2) >>= writeThingy 01:01:34 the monad type does not appear in the single argument to liftM 01:01:39 but it does in the return type 01:02:11 as i see it, the monad is found from the first object in the >>= chain which is not return _ 01:03:01 and obviously you lose majorly if you get rid of currying 01:03:35 another idea: 01:03:35 well, getting rid of currying was not part of the original specification :) 01:04:11 if you allow currying the Java and C# programmers will kill you 01:05:16 suppose you have a function getStream :: m a -> m [a] 01:05:57 and because it is used deep inside an abstraction, for elegance you want to pass in "return 0", which eventually gets passed as the first argument of getStream... 01:06:30 you have a naked return, so you must specify the type somehow 01:06:51 any any hard-coded type will reduce generality 01:07:34 well, there _would_ have to be default return(x) objects 01:07:48 "default"? 01:08:08 which would know how to insert themselves into a >>= chain 01:08:16 ouch, hack 01:08:36 getStream f = do { x <- f ; xs <- getStream f ; return x : xs } -- I think 01:08:37 no worse than having numerical conversions 01:09:53 basically, you are making the wrapped Identity monad a supertype of the others. 01:12:09 er, subtype 01:12:37 What's all this about? 01:13:01 how much of monads can be done in a dynamically typed language 01:13:36 with code polymorphic over the monad 01:31:09 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:31:18 -!- marvinbot` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:47:10 -!- immibis has joined. 01:49:07 -!- toBogE has joined. 01:50:23 -!- toBogE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:09:30 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:36:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:14:11 -!- andreou has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 04:34:14 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 05:14:30 Hey, if you read() from a Reader, does it always pull in the next byte? 05:14:35 -!- Arrogant has joined. 05:14:41 um 05:14:46 yes, I do believe 05:15:27 actually, that reads a *character* 05:16:00 wait... wtf 05:16:06 this javadoc is confusing. 05:16:11 It reads an int, actually :P 05:16:18 "The character read, as an integer in the range 0 to 65535" 05:16:25 what the hell does that mean? 05:16:27 Grr. 05:16:35 obviously, it IS an int, but... wait 05:16:47 It's the integer representation of the next unicode character. 05:16:49 this may be because Java has builtin Unicode support 05:16:50 yeah 05:18:07 Now I have to like, completely redesign half my classes. 05:18:09 Hooray. 05:18:20 why the refactor? 05:19:05 Wait no, I don't. Only 1 class I need to redesign. 05:19:17 phew 05:19:59 I need to use an InputStream now, so I have to make sure the bytes are converted to their appropriate types before I have the classes perform the internal magic to represent the types I need. 05:20:25 Can you test against bytes like (blah == -1) ? 05:20:31 Or do you have to cast to int? 05:20:50 you should be able to make the comparison you have above 05:22:04 on an unrelated note, I've come up with a bunch of monsters and things for the player and fluffy, his faithful genetically engineered pencil-sharpener, to face in my RPG: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/images/CRPG%20combat.png 05:23:25 ideas not shown here include staple removers, peeps(TM) candy and the ghost of Edsgard Djikstra. 05:23:41 I want the Djikstra! 05:24:07 lol 05:25:31 Also, if you cast byte to char, does it do the auto-conversion for you? 05:25:40 Djikstra's attacks will include "Shunting yard", "FOR loop", "A case against the GO TO statement" and "exhaustive proof" 05:26:00 This primitives business is what really confuses me. I'm so used to C primitives ;-; 05:26:14 char literals are dealt with internally as if they instantly become integers 05:26:22 Aha. 05:26:43 that's how I always think about it- single-quotes are just an alias 05:27:18 so (57 == '9') is true 05:27:29 I haven't written ASM in a *looong* time. 05:27:37 I want to do a low level project. Methinks an emulator. 05:27:43 in Java? 05:27:47 In C :P 05:27:52 eeew 05:28:14 You can't write a substantial emulator in a high-level language and expect it to be fast, though. 05:28:49 Plus you need cheap bit-flipping hacks that is total C-lurv :3 05:29:02 you can't write anything in java and expect it to be fast, that includes emulators 05:29:57 Funny how a byte-code compiled language can't be fast, no? 05:30:09 OSS anti-Java stigma, when unfounded, is funny. 05:30:22 at least, not on my computer 05:30:46 I'll bet my machine is worse than yours. 05:30:59 I'm with Sukoshi on this one, immibis- Java has a tremendous amount of technology behind it to *make* it fast, even when it's innately at a disadvantage 05:31:08 JavaC is a fantastic piece of code. 05:32:22 really? i must have a slow computer then 05:32:31 * immibis checks in System Properties 05:32:50 2GHz, 248MB memory 05:33:19 there is no excuse to have that little RAM. It's a travesty. 05:33:26 immibis: 1.6 GHz, 256 MB. 05:33:44 ;D 05:33:53 ram IS NOT EXPENSIVE. It's the most affordable upgrade you can make to your computer these days. 05:34:11 8MB is used by onboard graphics 05:34:27 i think there is actually 256MB in the box 05:34:44 I have a slower computer, and yet it runs fine. 05:34:55 You even run Windows, and the Linux JVM has historically been known for being crappy. 05:35:21 the sun jvm or gij? 05:36:10 Sun. 05:36:40 I can attest to this- applet compatibility on linux is absolute shit 05:37:04 unreliable keylisteners, improper graphics buffering, and a host of other intermittent problems 05:38:53 I've had numerous programs run on OSX and windows flawlessly, and then utterly fail when I test them out on one of the fedora-based lab machines up here in the CS department 05:39:25 It's gonna improve now that Java is OSSing the thing. 05:39:33 ...in theory. 05:39:57 Never doubt the power of horrendous numbers of OSS coders. 05:39:59 OR, we'll wind up with a ton of slightly broken and weird forks of the language 05:40:14 Read the GNU Classpath mailing list. It's *really* active. 05:40:23 "Woo I should add operator overloading to Java FOR NO REASON! Whoopeee!" 05:40:37 i reckon they'd have a fork of Java with built-in "Hello World!" support 05:40:46 Java 5 did enough bad things. :'( 05:40:58 But Java 1.6 really upped Linux VM awesomeness. 05:41:07 Much faster/lighter on the memory. 05:41:21 the apple can only fall so far from the tree 06:01:44 getting off now, cya 06:02:13 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("custom quit messages --> xchat.org <-- hydrairc sucks"). 06:04:47 Although I used to find it aggravating in the beginning, now I'm starting to like Java's restriction of one class per file and the class should have the same name as the filename. 06:05:04 I remember hunting typedefs in large globs of C codes and shuddering. 06:06:55 :) 06:07:32 although in cases where it makes some sense (like non-public classes), it *is* sometimes possible to have more than one in a file 06:11:07 'later everyone- I require sleep 06:11:16 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit. 06:56:43 could someone please indicate what is wrong with the following bf program: +[,>[-]+.<[.,]+.[-]+++++++++++++.---.] 06:57:31 it is supposed to read from standard input until end-of-file and echo it putting the character with code 1 before and after it 06:57:50 in other words, it is meant to translate plain text into a CTCP request when run on EgoBot as a daemon 07:04:50 why so complicated? 07:05:14 +.>,[.,]<+ 07:05:23 left over from an earlier revision 07:05:30 s/<+/./ 07:05:32 wait a second... 07:05:37 what about the CRLF though? 07:15:18 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:09 -!- sebbu has joined. 08:58:48 !daemon ctcp bf8 +[.[-],[.,]+.++++++++++++.---.] 08:58:52 !ctcp ACTION blinks 08:58:54 ACTION blinks 08:58:55 !ctcp ACTION blinks 08:58:58 ACTION blinks 08:59:03 !undaemon ctcp 08:59:06 Process 1 killed. 08:59:24 !daemon ctcp bf8 +[.[-],[.,]+.+++++++++.] 08:59:28 !ctcp ACTION blinks 08:59:30 ACTION blinks 08:59:37 !ctcp ACTION blinks 08:59:40 ACTION blinks 08:59:48 anyone know what is happening? 08:59:51 !undaemon ctcp 08:59:54 Process 1 killed. 09:00:27 !help usertrig 09:00:30 Use: usertrig

Function: manage user triggers. may be add, del, list or show. 09:00:54 !usertrig add ctcp bf8 +.,[.,]+. 09:00:56 Trigger added (ctcp)! 09:01:02 !ctcp ACTION blinks 09:01:04 * EgoBot blinks 09:01:05 !ctcp ACTION blinks 09:01:08 * EgoBot blinks 09:01:14 well, that works. 09:01:27 !daemon cat bf8 +[,.[-]+] 09:01:34 meow 09:03:36 meow 09:06:05 !cat 09:06:07 !dog 09:06:10 woof 09:06:49 !goat 09:06:52 woof 09:06:57 why does the goat go woof? 09:10:33 -!- immibis has quit ("I cna ytpe 300 wrods pre mniuet!!!"). 10:19:10 "If you are caught downloading copyrighted material, you will lose your ResNet privileges forever.", then, later on the page, "Copyright © 2005 by the University of Kansas". Ouch. 10:32:18 ? 10:33:30 http://www.resnet.ku.edu/ 10:33:40 Ach, du lieber! <<< OMG, rather you? 10:33:48 funny funny 10:36:04 hmph, why is everyone gone when i need them 10:36:23 okay, i admit i did't need oerjan that much 10:44:44 -!- ehird` has joined. 11:00:34 -!- jix has joined. 11:03:50 where's that video about procedures in c2bf again? 11:20:58 -!- Cesque has joined. 11:22:12 -!- Cesque has quit (Client Quit). 11:48:05 -!- andreou has joined. 11:53:27 damn 11:53:37 made a language with static typing 11:54:04 (to be continued...) 11:54:24 eh 11:54:30 actually, i solved my problem 12:05:46 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 12:06:00 -!- jix has joined. 12:36:55 -!- RedDak has joined. 12:40:01 -!- andreou has quit ("Leaving."). 12:48:29 -!- oklofok has joined. 12:48:56 so okay, i make a language, then try creating i using s, k and i -combinators. 12:49:11 WHY CAN'T MY I COMBINATOR USE ITSELF RECURSIVELY??? 12:49:23 this kept me occupied for quite a while 12:49:28 i'm no great <3 12:50:12 (don't use recursion if you don't know it or just happen to be a miserably failish person.) 12:50:23 (is the lesson here) 12:53:05 -!- ololobot has joined. 12:53:31 >>> ul `ii 12:53:33 -> i 12:54:07 >>> numbda s={a->{b->{c->(a!c)!(b!c)}}};k={a->{b->a}};i={a->s!k!k!a};i!7 12:54:08 num:7 12:54:24 the i combinator via ``skk in numbda 12:55:09 (the language i created to make possible to make lambdas using parenthesis while still having them for normal grouping) 12:55:26 and no, this feature hasn't been done yet 12:55:36 and yes, i know no one is interested in whether it is 12:55:48 and now, gonna eat something funnish -> 12:56:27 >>> numbda 5+4-5*2 12:56:28 num:-1 12:56:46 crack it if you wish, tell me if you do 12:56:47 -> 13:00:56 hmm 13:01:50 -!- oklobot has joined. 13:01:52 hihi 13:02:01 !help 13:02:04 help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon 13:02:05 oh 13:02:07 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl 13:02:08 ah 13:02:25 !exec 5 5 3AddAddPrntnl 13:02:28 Huh? 13:02:32 hmm 13:02:38 !exec 5 5 3AddAddPrntNl 13:02:39 ah 13:02:39 13 13:02:40 Huh? 13:03:28 oklobot sucks, i just wanted 4 nicks here for the hell of it 13:03:41 now, retry at the going away thing -> 13:03:47 -!- ihope__ has joined. 13:04:12 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope. 13:28:26 numbda looks like oklotalk 13:29:21 wait how does egobot do befunge 13:29:23 multiple lines 13:35:11 source file url 13:35:11 is there a precompiled binary of fukyorbrane for windows anywhere? 13:35:19 and i'm not gone 13:35:20 why... 13:35:22 :< 13:37:32 =p 13:37:40 hmm 13:37:51 FukYorBrane combined with self-replicating brainfuck? 13:38:01 you could easily replace an opponents code with your own. 13:38:10 or similar weirdness 13:40:10 ololobot has a new language now 13:40:13 just added 13:40:19 >>> bs 33<11<=!Hello> world>: 13:40:20 Hello, world! 13:40:25 yay :) 13:40:36 nice to extend, that one 13:40:49 now, perhaps, i'm going -> 13:52:14 one thing i don't understand about bf function calls like in c2bf 13:52:49 is that the only way to call a function is to put the function id in the current cell, and then >end the loop< (i.e. return from the current function.) so how do you handle my_function() { a_func(); more_code; }? you'd return right after a_func 13:53:05 and you can't use a call stack since you can't represent a certain part of a function 14:18:26 do many brainfuck compilers optimize x[x] to a do..while? 14:29:35 Oh my. 14:29:54 what 14:30:03 oklofok: what's that language? 14:30:12 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:34:04 hmm, x[x] optimization could really speed up some code 14:49:24 * ihope ponders 14:49:59 ponders what 14:50:16 Ponders how to write that without x being present twice. 14:50:26 Oh 14:50:51 ... i think it'd be hard 14:50:58 which is why lovely compilers should do it for us! 14:51:14 * ihope nods 14:51:44 Perhaps AI means a good compiler. 14:52:10 * ehird` ponders writing a bf-to-c compiler in C, optimizing - yeah it's been done before, but they're short affairs, and you can optimize so much in BF 14:52:49 (wow -- i'm stupid, i just realised that cell-wrapping is just modulo 256) 15:03:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:34:44 i might write that bf compiler. 16:32:05 ihope: numbda 16:33:35 what is numbda 16:33:43 (ihope) oklofok: what's that language? 16:33:44 oh 16:33:48 oklobot's language? 16:33:53 that one i call oklobot :) 16:33:58 or The Oklobot Language 16:34:07 >>> bs. 16:34:12 oh 16:34:13 ah 16:34:18 that's a language of my friends 16:34:55 it's kinda like brainfuck, except you have bitwise logic and basic arithmetic for adjacent cells 16:35:04 is there a page on the wiki describing most of the good brainfuck-compilation optimization techniques known? 16:35:24 my friend's knowledge about esoteric languages is pretty much limited to brainfuck 16:35:33 >>> bs 33<11<=!Hello> world>: 16:35:34 Hello, world! 16:35:36 That's numbda? 16:35:41 no 16:35:42 ehird`: that while -> do while thing isn't possible in general, methinks 16:35:48 oklofok, why not? 16:35:48 ihope: that's b00tstrap_ 16:35:55 * ihope nods 16:36:13 just match on a parse tree x[x], where x is matched as what's in the [], then convert 16:36:16 because you can't keep a cell for the while in store if you don't know where in memory x will land 16:36:32 oh 16:36:35 you mean, optimizing that 16:36:36 ah 16:36:39 yes 16:36:42 i was thinking about what ihope said 16:36:47 and answered to him, actually 16:36:56 well you said "ehird: that while -> do..." 16:37:10 i did, because i forgot who asked what. 16:37:12 anyway 16:37:20 what i mean is, instead of x[x] being e.g. x; while(*p){x} it's do{x}while(*p) 16:37:21 optimizing that is just a stirng match 16:37:24 yes 16:37:27 *string 16:37:32 or a parse tree match for more advanced compilers :P 16:37:46 essentially the same in the case of brainfuck 16:38:00 maybe x[xy] could be optimized too 16:38:02 because in brainfuck you can't play with syntax 16:38:07 that is if x isn't just one character or something silly 16:38:32 um, wait, no. 16:39:02 >>> numbda "Hello, world!" 16:39:03 Hello, world! 16:39:16 i realized my static scoping is broken when i was eating 16:39:31 recursion in general will not work 16:39:55 but you can't notice it yet, really, since there aren't control flow operators to make recursion usable 16:40:08 i also think that the algorithms to set the ptr to a certain value can be optimized 16:40:15 things like copying, too 16:40:31 you just need either some heuristics or some hard-coded snippits to optimize 16:40:39