< 1180569712 0 :crathman!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]" < 1180575690 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, after 15 mins discussing conditional keywords, we realise that we haven't decided on the significance of line-breaks < 1180575702 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we vote ... and get a 4-4 tie < 1180575997 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know you're bored when you get an executable in 324 bytes. . . < 1180576037 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html And you're really bored when you do this. < 1180576239 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, now almost half-an-hour making a decision that one person could have made in 2 minutes < 1180576273 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on syntax, i presume. < 1180576325 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lololol < 1180576335 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION howls with laughter at the latest suggestions < 1180576360 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it comes to 48 possible forms of the simple two-armed conditional < 1180576443 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn, that's dumb. < 1180576471 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New rule: "Your language fails as an esolang when it's less esoteric than x86 assembly". < 1180576486 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just voted in a 72-variation one < 1180576513 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exponential growth, yay! < 1180576516 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"IZ [?] [(.|\n) YARLY] (.|\n) (.|\n) [NOWAI (.|\n) ] KTHX" < 1180576531 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :KHAN! < 1180577350 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you reached 150 yet? :) < 1180577399 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the vote was final for the moment < 1180577483 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :45 bytes, wow < 1180577504 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISTR one of us diong this before < 1180577535 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :121 < 1180577564 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, I'm doing "Hello, world", which is a bit less trivial. < 1180577570 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: What, the "really small asm program"? < 1180577602 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, yeah. That website, I think, was done by one of us. < 1180577602 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1180577613 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a micro-esolang, too < 1180577998 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay, now I'm down to 101 bytes. . . < 1180578011 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1180578097 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what program are you writing? < 1180578099 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I'm down to segfault bytes. < 1180578106 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a simple "Hello, world". < 1180578120 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you done the elf header overlapping stuff yet? < 1180578142 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't see a way to actually fit my code *inside* the elf header. < 1180578233 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. . . I wonder how many bytes a jmp call would take. < 1180578239 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you overlap the two headers though? < 1180578272 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*That* much I have done. < 1180578293 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His second suggested overlap is broken, though. < 1180578443 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe put the first part of the program inside the elf header and jmp to the rest? < 1180578488 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking that. < 1180578564 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is, I can't quite figure out a) how many bytes are being used there b) how many bytes I have to actually work with. < 1180578576 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or write "hi world" instead and put the data there < 1180578595 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, that's a thought. . . < 1180578613 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he says there's nine bytes of padding < 1180578616 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. 9 bytes. < 1180578618 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1180578638 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, just to figure out how many bytes my code is actually *using*. < 1180578651 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Preferably per instruction. < 1180578661 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This'd be easier if I hadn't learned assembly earlier today. < 1180578683 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1180578693 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asm is possibly the most usefull esolang < 1180578792 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :over, after 4h25 or so < 1180578795 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1180578803 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay. Got it down to 87, thanks to the idea of putting the data in the header. < 1180578816 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that time, we did what one man could do in 20 minutes < 1180578836 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1180578884 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see if I can get a shorter way to exit. . . < 1180578897 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :segfault < 1180578915 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1180578931 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :25 minutes to decide on ADD, TIEMZ, NURF, and OVAR < 1180578940 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Segfaulting grants 79 bytes. < 1180578952 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just make the spec say the program must print "segfault" and exit < 1180578981 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if *that* is all I'm going to do, all I need is the ELF header. < 1180579000 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :segfault messages are non standard methinks < 1180579140 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Wadler later formulated a law to describe how effort was allotted to various topics: semantics is discussed half as much as syntax, syntax is discussed half as much as lexical syntax, and lexical syntax is discussed half as much as the syntax of comments. < 1180579172 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from A History of Haskell) < 1180579181 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the end we just about managed to squeeze in a vote saying that we would have only int math initially < 1180579199 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though no-one bothered to say what *width* of integer < 1180579258 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NURF and OVAR? < 1180579324 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which of course leads to the obvious question: have you decided on comment syntax? < 1180579340 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make it 2**16 bits wide < 1180579359 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW to end-of-line < 1180579362 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: heh < 1180579398 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only 2048 words < 1180579402 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suggest ALSO as comment continuation :) < 1180579420 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever the correct spelling is. < 1180579466 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzzzzz < 1180579489 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: I get the feeling his last header is broken. < 1180579543 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which, of course, it is. < 1180579645 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder just how slow 2**16 bit arithmatic would be < 1180580229 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a bit more munging, I was able to get "Hello world\n" to fit in the ELF header. < 1180580319 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1180580327 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the a.out specs look like. < 1180582672 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay. If this *worked* the way I thought, I'd have a damned small program by now. < 1180582784 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. . . Oh. < 1180582793 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I, uh, don't have a.out support in-kernel. < 1180582828 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. . . < 1180583250 0 :GregorR-L!n=gregor@c-76-27-232-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1180583358 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider a number system in base 2i < 1180583370 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you can represent any complex number in it < 1180583380 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with 4 symbols < 1180583403 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :47 (base 10) = 30103 (base 2i) < 1180583458 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's base -4 with a twist < 1180583468 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1180583540 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* < 1180583543 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :base -4 can't do complexes < 1180583608 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-i = 0.2 < 1180583609 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would anyone here happen to know the intimacies of the Linux a.out format well enough to tell me whether or not I'm being an idiot? < 1180583639 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i = 10.2 < 1180583647 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: Intimacies? No. Enough to tell me whether you're being an idiot? Maybe. < 1180583658 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: Mmkay. < 1180583682 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/hello-2.asm < 1180583717 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably am doing something really stupid, like "trying to ignore the assembler's nice little 'header' and such". < 1180583729 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't, however, speak ASM very well. < 1180583737 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yep < 1180583737 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. . . Well, that is exactly what I *am* doing stupid, probably. < 1180583741 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0,1,2,3,130,... < 1180583749 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: Nor do I; I just learned it *today*. < 1180583758 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawlercoptah < 1180583819 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh darn, knuth though of it first < 1180583820 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION would *prefer* being able to do this 'uber-tiny Hello, World' thing using a.out, just because the header is much, much smaller. < 1180583822 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :131,132,133,120,...,110,...,100,... < 1180583822 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quater-imaginary_base < 1180583823 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1180583871 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may just have to stick with my psuedo-ELF version. < 1180583886 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when he was in high school no less < 1180583917 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: So what? I've written a few heaps of code in high school. :p < 1180584134 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For my "Why the *hell* did you do this", working version: http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/hello.asm < 1180584149 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :87 bytes of "Hello, world". < 1180584360 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now make it a BF interpreter. < 1180584393 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll get around to that later. < 1180584399 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good idea < 1180584401 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still need to beat the dead horse. :p < 1180584852 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just a utm < 1180585658 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if anyone ever used the quater-imaginary base seriously in computers < 1180585749 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would you use it instead of 2 floats? < 1180585860 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you could do multiplication quickly or something < 1180585878 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exact arithmetic, anyhow < 1180585911 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe for the same reason no one uses exact reals < 1180586038 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, hi. I'd like to introduce you to the mpz_t type. < 1180586075 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's integers < 1180586166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see one example: "Simplified optical complex multiplication using quater-imaginary number representation." < 1180586183 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION 's head explodes. < 1180586197 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optical multiplication < 1180586331 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"But it takes a true genius (No offence Sid), to invent something as wacky as a Quater Imaginary Base Number System !" < 1180586356 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus we conclude that our bsmntbombdood is a genius too :) < 1180586391 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1180586403 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-200-73-175.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1180586510 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i'm off to bed < 1180586519 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1180587205 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1180587343 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-200-73-175.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1180587598 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Fine. Here's something for you. < 1180587631 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct real_t {mpz_t integer, fractional}; < 1180587689 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q != R < 1180587718 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? That can represent all reals that fit in RAM. < 1180587736 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhh, no. < 1180587740 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohwait < 1180587746 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhh, still no. < 1180587747 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pi < 1180587748 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1180587750 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sqrt(2) < 1180587756 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those don't fit in RAM. < 1180587763 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :touche < 1180587766 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you've got a Turing macine. < 1180587768 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Touché indeed. < 1180587786 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unicode bad < 1180587792 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :touch\'e < 1180587798 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tex good < 1180587800 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1180587800 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1180587812 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unicode good. < 1180587816 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tex also good. < 1180587860 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the Unicode "touché" is *IRC* good. < 1180587877 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :touch\'e is only \tex good. < 1180587898 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1180587934 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, I think "touché" renders properly in recent Tex builds, anyways. ;) < 1180588475 0 :GregorR!n=gregor@c-76-27-232-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1180588475 0 :sp3tt!n=sp3tt@80-162.cust.umeaenergi.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1180588794 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1180588794 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1180590181 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, by representing strings as trees you get constant time concatenation and O(log n) time indexing < 1180590542 0 :GregorR!n=gregor@c-76-27-232-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1180590542 0 :sp3tt!n=sp3tt@80-162.cust.umeaenergi.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1180590855 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1180590855 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1180590947 0 :GregorR!n=gregor@c-76-27-232-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1180590947 0 :sp3tt!n=sp3tt@80-162.cust.umeaenergi.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1180591179 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay, I'm thinking that my little "Hello, world" program is the smallest asm one that will run on a 2.6 kernel. < 1180591295 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how long? < 1180591780 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :80 bytes. < 1180591793 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a 59 byte one, but it won't run on my system. < 1180591960 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what makes you think it runs on others then? < 1180592082 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Need to try it. < 1180592146 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs on Gregor's box and Leibniz. < 1180592157 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1180592172 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux gdeskgor 2.6.17-14mdv #1 SMP Wed May 9 21:11:43 MDT 2007 i686 Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.80GHz GNU/Linux < 1180592184 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux leibniz 2.6.8-3-386 #1 Thu Sep 7 05:39:52 UTC 2006 i686 GNU/Linux < 1180592191 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Notice something in common there? < 1180592549 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than i686 GNU/Linux? No, not really. < 1180592656 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, the "it runs on those"? < 1180592672 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. . . Don't expect coherency from me. < 1180592685 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please, don't. I've been doing a whee bit too much x86. < 1180595621 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-200-73-175.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1180595795 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1180596159 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-200-73-175.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1180597096 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1180598399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1180598400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1180601064 0 :jix_!n=jix@195.37.106.60 JOIN :#esoteric < 1180605731 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1180608164 0 :iamchrist!n=Christ@69.62.232.46 JOIN :#esoteric < 1180608231 0 :pb_ee1!n=nospam@83.145.75.66 JOIN :#esoteric < 1180608474 0 :pb_ee1!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1180609102 0 :aarcane!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1180609578 0 :aarcane_!n=Christ@69.62.232.46 JOIN :#esoteric < 1180609663 0 :iamchrist!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1180609768 0 :iamchrist!n=Christ@69.62.232.46 JOIN :#esoteric < 1180610684 0 :aarcane_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1180613354 0 :jix_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"CommandQ" < 1180616279 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-108-64.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1180618285 0 :jix_!n=jix@dyndsl-091-096-038-104.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1180620324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking python < 1180625800 0 :crathman!n=chatzill@mail2.imedica.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1180627987 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: is that a new sexual deviancy? < 1180628033 0 :crathman!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1180628055 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear, repelled him < 1180628607 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's my little bother. < 1180628621 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*brother < 1180628622 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though < 1180628633 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he has a scoping disorder. < 1180628638 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real bad one < 1180632044 0 :sp3tt_!n=sp3tt@80-162.cust.umeaenergi.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1180632084 0 :sp3tt_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1180633065 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: scoping? < 1180633081 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I am sure I have seen him elsenet... < 1180634822 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes exactly, it's very hard :< < 1180634891 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even harder trying to explain a problem trying to keep it a double entendre < 1180634912 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i now have my constants defined in every function. < 1180634928 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how should i do it? < 1180636165 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION feels confused < 1180637505 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1180637527 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python has neither lexical nor dynamical scoping < 1180637557 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... how do i make a global i don't have to explicitly "include" in every function with "global" < 1180637559 0 :W|cked!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1180638631 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Use Tcl. < 1180638664 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Globals are either prefixed with ::, or included in your function's namespace with "global" or "upvar". < 1180639475 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::: okay < 1180639930 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is too much of a Tcler for his own good < 1180640618 0 :jix_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some things are really hard to phrase < 1180640988 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1180641036 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I occasionally end up expressing things with explicit qualifiers < 1180641043 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*quantifiers < 1180642068 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1180642194 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION boggles at the number of letters in "haemmorrhage". < 1180642208 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with just "hemorage"? < 1180642215 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1180642237 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with just "bogles"? < 1180642257 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with just ""? < 1180642277 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "bogles" would be prnounces differently < 1180642284 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*pronounced < 1180642321 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it is just haemorrhage. < 1180642334 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, oops, yes < 1180642390 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ae is obviously from a greek diphthong, spelling latinized. < 1180642458 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hemorrhage is fine. < 1180642497 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, "hæmorrhage". < 1180642514 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia says AE:e, BE:ae < 1180642534 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"AE"? "BE"? < 1180642545 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :american/british < 1180642551 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1180642607 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway norwegian does not seem to have that word but we spell another word "hemoroider" < 1180642625 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(google says about equally with or without double r) < 1180642653 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have a policy of simplifying spellings < 1180642662 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English is usually the best language for technical vocab. < 1180642682 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English has a policy of keeping the original language's spelling. < 1180642684 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehe < 1180642694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"best"? < 1180642702 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially in words like "jalapeno" < 1180642711 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English has a hell of a lot of technical vocabulary. . . < 1180642724 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most computer terms, for example < 1180642736 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also got a very, very confusing system of spelling, simply because it uses the spelling for the original language. < 1180642745 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway norwegian also seems to be less willing to use excessively technical terms for common medical words < 1180642765 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The French, being the closest "foreign" country, naturally hate anything English (linguistically). < 1180642798 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is kind of ironic, considering that they forced *their* language into ours. < 1180642806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although we are not as fanatical as the icelandic, who translate nearly everything. < 1180642834 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hallelujiah" "café" "ballet", etc < 1180642855 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english is just a gigantic pile of garbage, linguistically. < 1180642861 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heheh < 1180642873 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so complicated, most linguists never bother studying it. < 1180642873 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION recalls PTerry's remark on that. < 1180642885 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the verb declensions are ok < 1180642886 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English is ever language. < 1180642889 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every. Single. One. < 1180642901 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we have got rid of fucking noun genders < 1180642906 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : English has a hell of a lot of technical vocabulary. . . < 1180642906 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : most computer terms, for example < 1180642908 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there we go. I used 3 different linguistic sources in a single sentence!) < 1180642912 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The French, being the closest "foreign" country, naturally hate anything English (linguistically). < 1180642913 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Which is kind of ironic, considering that they forced *their* language into ours. < 1180642915 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :siamese twins? < 1180642919 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i heard there is an indian language which considers all english words included in theirs... < 1180642928 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't *think* so. < 1180642946 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, so your hand is male, the fingers are female, the thumb is neuter, and the wrist is female of neuter depending on which word you use. WFT?! < 1180642950 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*or < 1180642992 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"And then the tsunami pummeled the fjord". There we go. One sentence, 4 languages. < 1180643012 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :".. during the typhoon" < 1180643020 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: it depends on how the word sounds, not on what the thing is. < 1180643037 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in my experience < 1180643046 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: in the languages i'm familiar with, anyway (spanish, russian, ukrainian, hebrew, portuguese) < 1180643053 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :french is not that easy. < 1180643063 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"... after the cumulonimbus clouds came in, following the Czar." < 1180643093 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the germanic languages with genders are not so easy either < 1180643109 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in both cases most endings have turned into -e or nothing < 1180643142 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while in spanish/russian the endings still can be several vowels, mostly correlated with gender < 1180643161 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noice that "came" uses an strong anglo-saxon past tense, whereas "pummelled" uses a weak one. < 1180643256 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even our Germanic roots are muddled. . . I think it's 4 or 5 Germanic languages that contribute to our *early* language. < 1180643260 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand i read somewhere that you can guess most french words by the last letters, but it's a bit more complicated < 1180643262 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: this will probably be eventually followed up with removal of gender from germanic langs < 1180643273 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english has already done so < 1180643286 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in our lifetime of course < 1180643291 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :swedish and danish has collapsed masculine and feminine < 1180643294 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the meantime, just learn spanish instead :) < 1180643310 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every natural language will die pretty soon. < 1180643315 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ne, ne, ne! Lernu Esperanton. < 1180643318 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the overwhelming majority of words have "regular" gender < 1180643328 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Languages don't die, they blend. < 1180643336 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :languages do dei. < 1180643336 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :die. < 1180643341 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1180643348 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the big ones aren't in any danger at teh moment, though. < 1180643351 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They 'die' by merging into another language. < 1180643351 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they die if no one remembers them anymore. < 1180643356 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: correct < 1180643356 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: no, often they just die < 1180643365 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is not dying, Pikhq < 1180643373 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's... merging < 1180643373 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_death < 1180643405 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the majority of languages currently spoken are in immediate danger of death. < 1180643413 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a serious issue for linguists. < 1180643443 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(immediate, as in right now, not in a couple hundred years) < 1180643458 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they will merge into english first, prolly, then, hopefully, they all die and ppl start using a _good_ language, an artificially made one. < 1180643460 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I stand corrected. < 1180643461 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :within 1-2 generations < 1180643475 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :many currently still spoken languages will die < 1180643476 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: that last phrase is an oxmoron < 1180643494 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that no speakable language offers that much over any other, apart from the people who use it. < 1180643507 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i also am an ox moron, you will have to tell me what that is < 1180643514 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*oxymoron < 1180643518 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STFW < 1180643524 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STFWikipedia < 1180643555 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm.. so? < 1180643564 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: if everybody in the world speaks one language... that will just suck < 1180643569 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :monocultures are bad < 1180643576 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the artificial langs can;t really be much better than any natural ones < 1180643580 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps, why not make more than one language? < 1180643584 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes they can. < 1180643588 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how? < 1180643590 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, they can't. < 1180643593 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natural languages suck :\ < 1180643600 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :languages are highly evolved tools < 1180643607 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(natural languages) < 1180643613 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1180643626 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps in a few hundred years spoken languages will give way to visual cybernetically transmitted ones... < 1180643629 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just as you can't design an organism better suited for survival that the naturally evolved ones, you can't design a language that's better than the ones we have < 1180643645 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the existing stuff is just too good < 1180643647 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1180643649 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless we somehow find a "natural" telepathy) < 1180643652 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it sucks < 1180643658 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but you're ignorant < 1180643661 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1180643662 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wish < 1180643672 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beyond the obviously awkard things, like having 93 different phonemic clicks and 8273 verb declensions, there is not much you can do to make a language better < 1180643687 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: that's not "awkward", that's "expressive" < 1180643692 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I'm going to beg to differ. . . < 1180643711 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it mostly comes down to libraries, i.e. vocab, which English is good at < 1180643726 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't have anything on paper about this yet, so you will have to wait a few years for my arguments. < 1180643734 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English is an excellent language. I love it. < 1180643739 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can make an organism which is *much* better than other organisms in certain niches. < 1180643746 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course I love the other ones too. < 1180643748 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you increase the density, people end up speaking slower by ecxactly the same amount because everything is more fragile < 1180643770 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: pretty much; nevertheless, it's good for things like poetry < 1180643792 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you make it more logical, you find that many people don't think logically, and that they want to express some compilcated things often and some simple things rarely < 1180643793 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: a language that doesn't support poetry well is not particularly interesting :) < 1180643815 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that last point is of particular note... < 1180643849 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english is very expressive thanks mostly to vocab < 1180643854 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :learning some Set theory, Prolog, and Haskell did far more for me than 4 years of French < 1180643867 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: how are those things at all related? < 1180643883 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, languages are supposed to offer different views on the world < 1180643884 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esperanto bonas por poezio, mi pensas. < 1180643906 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esperanto is terrible simply because of the suffixes :) < 1180643915 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not enough variety < 1180643919 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At first, I kept getting frustrated by that lack of HoF in English. < 1180643920 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ne, ne, ne. Tre bona! < 1180643922 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, that's not really an issue < 1180643935 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just write unrhymed poetry, like many natural langs do < 1180643945 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(japanese) < 1180643953 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but small vocab is also an impediment < 1180643955 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :はい。 < 1180643959 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: ? < 1180643969 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just said an empty line! < 1180643975 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I said "Hai". < 1180643980 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Japanese? < 1180643988 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not my fault you don't do Unicode. < 1180643989 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1180643994 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a crappy font < 1180644001 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fixedsys < 1180644015 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a.k.a Fixe-days :-P < 1180644027 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway having many languages is nice :) < 1180644035 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jes. < 1180644039 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not stable < 1180644047 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: well, no < 1180644055 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: having many languages is more stable than having one < 1180644068 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have one, it will break apart into several < 1180644075 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: The history of the human race would like to come up and tell you about this bit about "always having multiple languages". < 1180644098 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant it isn't stable *now*. < 1180644104 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: latin is an excellent example, and it's happening slowly with spanish and english < 1180644107 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we seem to be heading for a few dozen < 1180644122 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: hopefully more < 1180644133 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: gobal communications may slow down the differentiation < 1180644138 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: there's a lot of, for example, tiny european languages that coexist with the main language and aren't dying < 1180644144 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(catalan and such) < 1180644147 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm :-S < 1180644150 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, point < 1180644175 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a whole LOT of langs are dying in africa and south america and australia < 1180644179 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they will most likely die < 1180644225 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe there's something like 6000 at the moment and we're heading for 600 very very soon :( < 1180644238 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 600 is still decent < 1180644285 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get the feeling that the number of languages in existence is cyclic. . . < 1180644302 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: no < 1180644302 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We got a ton of languages dying or converging at one point, and later, we get them breaking up. . . < 1180644314 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: no, globalization makes it smaller < 1180644323 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: it's been declining for a while < 1180644333 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(discovery of america was a biggie there) < 1180644339 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it *does*, but I can't help but feel that it more changes the intensity of the cycle. < 1180644365 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: when latin broke apart, the number of parts was much smaller than the number of languages that died as latin expanded < 1180644367 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :next cycle starts when when the human race disperses into outer space < 1180644370 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*when < 1180644390 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: we used to have many small tribes living pretty much separatly < 1180644400 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: so, a huge number of languages, each one with only a couple hundred speakers < 1180644408 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is still the situation in some parts of the world < 1180644408 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Yeah. The increasing globalisation *changes the intensity* of the cycle. < 1180644418 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all these tiny languages will surely die < 1180644430 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(outer space though) < 1180644435 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it changes the basic isolation parameter < 1180644446 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't disprove my point by proving it; you *really* don't. < 1180644451 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: you think things like the internet do nothing to decrease the number of languages? < 1180644476 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to "stabilize" existing ones < 1180644481 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relatively speaking < 1180644492 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Of *course* I do. It's just that that means that when the cycle goes around to *increase* the number of languages, there will be fewer languages at *that* peak than the previous one. < 1180644500 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the internet _could_ stabilize a language that was thinly dispersed < 1180644503 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spanish, for example, was falling apart steadily < 1180644511 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now the process is slowed down by media and pop culture < 1180644515 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in finland it's mostly the less intellectual ones that adapt english into their spoken finnish < 1180644522 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as people in spain watch latin american movies, etc < 1180644524 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intellectual? < 1180644525 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1180644537 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the languages would probably split apart *less* simply because of globalisation, it will still happen. < 1180644537 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i doubt each and every word i write. < 1180644542 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(especially with the smaller ones) < 1180644573 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually languages split after a big expansion of a single language followed by the collapse of the associated empire < 1180644574 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider Esperanto. . . And the *class* of languages that have formed around it, the Esperantidons. < 1180644578 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does not change the _intensity_ of the cycle but its balance point < 1180644588 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Fair enough. < 1180644606 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we don't yet know whether the balance point has shifted so far that it is now 1. < 1180644619 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's "cyclic" in the same death as the "circle of life" is cyclic < 1180644627 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it helps to think of languages as living things < 1180644648 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they practically are < 1180644743 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(thinking of them as species is more accurate but less exciting) < 1180644745 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like bacteria perhaps, which also have the ability to merge genetic material < 1180644758 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just removed about a grapeful of my hair 8| < 1180644798 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you measure hair by the grapful? < 1180644809 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason artificial languages can't work is that they'll stop being artificial as they're used < 1180644810 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: that may or may not be a bad thing, dependent on whether you are a good self-hairdresser... < 1180644817 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... it's a big ball < 1180644827 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: not if that's not allowed. < 1180644832 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: not allowed?? < 1180644836 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!! < 1180644837 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Language Police? < 1180644840 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1180644844 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR and the like. < 1180644847 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: that's what has happened with several signed languages, i guess < 1180644851 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: what arrangement is you hair in? < 1180644853 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: correct < 1180644859 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's a good example actually < 1180644861 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: A good few artificial languages are just *meant* to be artificial at the start, with the *hope* that they'll become natural. < 1180644861 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's long and all around. < 1180644870 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: well, the problem is < 1180644870 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1180644876 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: say you have esperanto, it's nice and regular < 1180644885 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not true, but anyways. < 1180644896 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: if people actually spoke it, it would become irregular in no time < 1180644903 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: as i understand, this has already started to happen < 1180644910 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this did happen to sign languages < 1180644916 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also forked into the Esperantidos. . . < 1180644942 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Some, like Ido, are mutually intelligible, so are more like dialects) < 1180644950 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone comes along and decides to add voicing harmony, then they dike out the voicing distingtion on sybilants, then fuck around with it some more, and before you know it, it's and irregular mess < 1180644986 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: many things happen naturally, without anybody specifically "deciding" to do stuff < 1180645030 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what I mean < 1180645056 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only way to avoid changing a language is to not use it :) < 1180645071 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(case in point: hebrew) < 1180645078 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however some language changes probably really started as deliberate in-jokes < 1180645096 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or to make it so delicate that a change will tumble the whole thing down. . . < 1180645098 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hebrew was revived after 2K years of beind dead < 1180645114 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eek! zombie language! < 1180645115 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it is less "evolved" than other languages < 1180645129 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some sort of esoteric natural language. . . < 1180645138 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the people responsible for revival actually made up a whole bunch of words < 1180645144 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 'kettle' < 1180645151 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :acbg,j. < 1180645153 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for things that weren't around 2000 years ago < 1180645158 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: if you make it too delicate then it will not work in noisy environments < 1180645182 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You could just as well make the *grammer* far to delicate, instead of the phonemes. < 1180645185 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1180645185 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1180645185 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1180645194 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong chan. < 1180645207 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: people will just simplify it then. < 1180645219 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is happening in many languages < 1180645249 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: but if there is redundancy then there _will_ be possibility for compression < 1180645249 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg latin lost its cases and several verb tenses < 1180645300 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. . . The Malbolge of esoteric languages? < 1180645307 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err. < 1180645307 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and if there's no redundancy, people will introduce it, because redundancy is useful < 1180645308 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spoken. < 1180645322 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although several new tenses were added, so romance languages may actually be more complicated on that point < 1180645331 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i don't think they are. < 1180645340 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and spanish is losing some tenses too < 1180645353 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, lost < 1180645357 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i just recall someone saying so < 1180645398 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may depend on if you count the compound tenses as well, i guess < 1180645404 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*whether < 1180645477 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spanish lost future subjunctive < 1180645485 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The future subjunctive is rarely used in modern Spanish and mostly appears in old texts, legal documents, and certain expressions" < 1180645507 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's a simple tense) < 1180645585 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most recent changes in finnish are just that a few complex tenses have died because the majority of finnish ppl don't know how to use them < 1180645588 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the tenses formed after Latin from merging infinitive with haber, i guess? < 1180645592 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not tenses < 1180645596 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...things-. < 1180645657 0 :Trey_!n=Trey@d47-69-231-120.try.wideopenwest.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1180645690 0 :Trey_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :W|cked < 1180646028 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :W|cked: are you one of the language-the-shall-not-be-named devs < 1180646031 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1180646076 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the actually-nothing-wrong-with-it-but-getting-excessive-attention language) < 1180646439 0 :W|cked!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolcode? < 1180646444 0 :W|cked!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAI < 1180646462 0 :W|cked!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no :( < 1180646901 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you hear about their 2-armed IF? < 1180646912 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like an if-else in C < 1180646915 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1180646954 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :W|cked: Due to various compromises between everyone's different ideas, it comes in 72 different forms, all functionally identical. < 1180646974 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was on the comittee that decided that < 1180646995 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eris a god who gets results. < 1180647025 0 :W|cked!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For what language are we talking about? < 1180647028 0 :W|cked!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolcode? :x < 1180647053 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1180647059 0 :W|cked!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're joking right? < 1180647086 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1180647096 0 :W|cked!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example? < 1180647098 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll dig out the description < 1180647105 0 :W|cked!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kk < 1180647120 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that they are not 72 _completely_ different forms, just a form with several independent variations < 1180647125 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we voted in the following: "IZ [?] [(.|\n) YARLY] (.|\n) (.|\n) [NOWAI (.|\n) ] KTHX" < 1180647133 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2*3*2*2*3 = 72 < 1180647209 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of that comes from treating . and \n as equivalent. < 1180647219 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1180647230 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which actually sounds sensible. < 1180647255 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we also decided thaat everything is a 1d array, I think < 1180647258 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell does the same with ; and \n < 1180647264 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: erm, kinda < 1180647276 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the right definition of \n < 1180647289 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it has some slightly-compilcated rules about turning whitespace into ;{} < 1180647298 0 :W|cked!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;{} < 1180647308 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the grammar is in terms of {}; , not whitespace < 1180647353 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without that you get 2*2*1*1*2 = 8 < 1180647374 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python may also be similar < 1180647393 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but simpler < 1180647418 0 :jix_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"CommandQ" < 1180647497 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that YARLY about? < 1180647508 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yeah really < 1180647547 0 :iamchrist!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :aarcane < 1180647579 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"noway" is "else if(false)"? < 1180647585 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*NOWAI < 1180647626 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IZ - YARLY - NOWAI - KTHZ = IF - THEN - ELSE - END, i guess < 1180647660 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not _that_ strange, apart from the variations on YARLY < 1180647706 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are we discussing lolcode < 1180647717 0 :W|cked!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION stammers < 1180647721 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, in fact that is a bit broken, you can have ? . YARLY < 1180647722 0 :W|cked!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :W...ww.wwhat lolcode < 1180647778 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: you have some kind of unhealthy interest in this language. You keep bringing it up. < 1180647787 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1180647812 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least edit its esolang page then :) < 1180647869 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard to do when it is still under construction < 1180647873 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ICBA < 1180647879 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Learn a less odd language, like assembly. < 1180647910 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolcode doesn't seem particularly odd from what i've heard about it < 1180647925 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems the developers are not knowledgeable enough to introduce non-standard features < 1180647940 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not knowledgeable and not imaginative enough) < 1180647949 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine. Learn a *more* odd language. < 1180647954 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like PEBBLE. < 1180648703 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you lot remember who everyone is on this channel? < 1180648711 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are so many here now < 1180648737 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i'm lament < 1180648742 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm pretty sure you're SimonRC < 1180648745 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1180648747 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* < 1180648751 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those others, i have no idea < 1180648758 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1180648759 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, oerjan is oerjan < 1180648776 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I forget things like whether GregorR or RogerTheGreat is the on with the hats. < 1180648784 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be Gregor. < 1180648807 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mst of you blur together a lot for me < 1180648818 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm the one who has far too many towels. < 1180648830 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even me, Mr "I <3 PEBBLE to much"? < 1180648846 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1180648892 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, do you forget things like that about people outside the net? < 1180648973 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gregorR should be easy, we have pictures of him. < 1180649030 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rogerthegreat is a bit vague to me too. < 1180649190 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess information sort of accretes on people until it reaches critical mass < 1180649200 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose so < 1180649237 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan is the gay norwegian farmer < 1180649250 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fizzie is the retired scuba diver with 7 cats < 1180649261 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is? < 1180649301 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're just a blur. < 1180649314 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq is the obnoxious 9 year old with plans for world domination. < 1180649367 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right. < 1180649374 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_-' < 1180649388 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feeling 'complemented' here. < 1180649436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lament is the Russian mafia hitman. < 1180649471 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people who know that little factoid tend to not live for very long < 1180649495 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck. < 1180649508 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: congrats, you just doomed everyone in the channel < 1180649544 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that's ok, just part of my plans for world domination. besides i had to kill them anyhow since you revealed i was gay. < 1180649584 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a complete personality assigned to all of you. < 1180649587 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought that was public knowledge, hence the oerjan.isgay.com website and all that < 1180649601 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just might be biased for those who talk little. < 1180649613 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1180649622 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's just ban all those who talk little < 1180649699 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament... i think of you as a connection between functional and imperative programming... i have no idea where that has come from :) < 1180649702 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed i had to move out of the closet. it got too full of towels. < 1180649771 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus, i have a who-is-friends-with-whom diagram in my head, i guess deduced from conversations of small groups < 1180649814 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mostly play music and take pictures and do no esoteric programming. < 1180649821 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did, however, take a course with cpressey at one point. < 1180649829 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ah, lament is friends with GregorR yet talks about math, GregorR i've mostly seen talking about c++. < 1180649845 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that cpressey is ever around) < 1180649848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or D, or plof < 1180649850 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: you have a does-a-lot brand on you. < 1180649863 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :talks-a-lot maybe < 1180649865 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1180649877 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember which of you is the other one who konws Haskell... < 1180649881 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and i put up falsebot which inspired egobot < 1180649882 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: < 1180649884 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-: < 1180649886 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION raises hand < 1180649890 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know haskell < 1180649890 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1180649893 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also... lament < 1180649894 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1180649896 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1180649902 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and... SimonRC i guess, a bit < 1180649903 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or? < 1180649904 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also like python :) < 1180649910 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1180649936 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oooh, like, we can do duck typing. Yay!" < 1180649959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is that ehird guy again? i finally got his little language implemented after i switched from Perl to Python < 1180649966 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is no conflict between cowboy.draw() and sprite.draw(), nosiree < 1180649991 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: Haskell can resolve that ambiguity just fine) < 1180650027 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with modules, but then so can python < 1180650036 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, python isn;t a bad language at all < 1180650040 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i made some programs with sadol when was around, and he then disappeared for a few months < 1180650049 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the creator < 1180650071 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that'll happen to you too < 1180650079 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that my experienc of it is spending half an hour implementing some algebraic data types, then realising that it would be easier in a language with native support for the darned things < 1180650200 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am sure some people have the opposite experience with objects in a functional language < 1180650480 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1180650584 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, me < 1180650611 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do i still have to write essays on paper... i now have to erase about 70 words just to add one sentence i accidentally left out. < 1180650622 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1180650630 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm so in the conversation. < 1180650638 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are not allowed to use a printout? < 1180650647 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope. < 1180650736 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do it on computer first, then copy it out longhand? < 1180650768 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah... that's what i should've done. < 1180650777 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did that last time < 1180650793 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i finished the essay right on time, the night before i should've returned it < 1180650814 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it took me 6 months to finally copy it on paper and turn it in :) < 1180650914 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus this makes no sense since my handwriting is undecipherable < 1180652237 0 :GregorR-L!n=gregor@c-76-27-232-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1180652289 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"@+" < 1180652297 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still doesn't appreciate being called a 9 year old. . . < 1180652306 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an insult to 9 year olds everywhere, I fear. < 1180652339 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would 99 year old be better? < 1180652355 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not quite that senile. < 1180652366 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sez you! < 1180652389 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can call me that if I get a hip replacement. < 1180652393 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but your perception is clearly distorted by your condition. < 1180652508 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it's distorted by my 17-year-old-ness. < 1180652573 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, 17 year old dogs are often senile. < 1180652593 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you thought no one knew you were a dog on the internet?) < 1180652595 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a member of Homo sapiens, last I checked. < 1180652606 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought only oerjan was homo < 1180652608 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. . . Fine. I'm only a dog when I'm online. < 1180652615 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I'm offline, I change species. < 1180652626 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a weredog, ok < 1180652642 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a genius one at that. < 1180653011 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, ich bin fucking fertig :) < 1180653074 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :following conversations and playing irc trivia i write 1 wpm on average < 1180653130 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pretty sure i'll never have to write another essay in german or swedish, excluding matriculation. < 1180653181 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One word per minute? < 1180653185 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a bit. . . Slow. < 1180653192 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :und there war viel rejoicing. < 1180653226 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARGH!!! GERMANISH! < 1180653338 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a bit slow, that exactly was my point < 1180653372 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, standard deviation is needed before jumping into conclusions. < 1180653384 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :germany outlawed hacking tools < 1180653386 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you mean the average for essay writing. . . < 1180653388 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I blame IrC. < 1180653403 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I think their definition is vague enough to include the human brain. < 1180653415 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: have you seen Folkspraak? < 1180653456 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I haven't. < 1180653464 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would I care about the people's speaking? < 1180653487 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually you hear it, now see. < 1180653676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was an auxiliary Germanish language that we discussed on the conlang mailing list years ago. I am surprised to see it has a (disputed notability) Wikipedia article, and (not as surprisingly) has split into several versions. < 1180653684 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tonight, i'm gonna go to sleep early! ------> < 1180653719 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*not < 1180653778 0 :CakeProphet_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1180654059 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq was on a conlang list? < 1180654094 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i was < 1180654107 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION too < 1180654119 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am on CONLANG-L and the ZBB. < 1180654477 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell < 1180654481 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quoting wp: "there is no article in Latin, Sanskrit, Persian or in some modern Indo-European languages such as standard Russian and Czech." < 1180654489 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this non-standard russian that has articles < 1180654949 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, russian wikipedia has some info < 1180654968 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean it actually exists? < 1180654985 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that non-standard russian) < 1180655019 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the example given is from late-1600s church language. < 1180655038 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anybody know of a good algorithm/library for comparing images more intelligently than just pixel differences? < 1180655120 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the original slavic church language was old Bulgarian, wasn't it. and Bulgarian has articles. < 1180655139 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that there is necessarily a connection. < 1180655142 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's how it got there. < 1180655147 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, there's likely a connection. < 1180655407 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does "skoal (dip) declension" mean? It's in the article on Bulgarian. < 1180655415 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i'm guessing case) < 1180655459 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't understand. < 1180655539 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason i am not sure if there is a connection is because i don't know how recent Bulgarian articles are < 1180655584 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was changed from "noun" to "skoal (dip)" without comment. < 1180655676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll change it into "case", me thinks. < 1180655700 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: Raster->SVG, diff svg1 svg2 < 1180655701 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1180655767 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :......................................... no :P < 1180655813 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. . . You *could* do something a bit lengthy by comparing color values, edges, etc. . . < 1180655821 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm not sure that's "Good".