00:02:44 <bsmntbombdood> what do you mean?
00:04:14 <happy_song> the kolmogorov complexity result.
00:04:23 <happy_song> can't find the optimal compression.
00:04:39 <bsmntbombdood> it doesn't need to be optimal
00:05:45 <bsmntbombdood> "8 repitions of 'a'" and "8 repitions of 'b'", while not any smaller than the original strings, still help to compare them
00:08:42 <oerjan> but it requires human interpretation.
00:10:33 <bsmntbombdood> no it doesn't
00:10:51 <oerjan> a computer just dumbly comparing programs would not be able to tell why that was essentially better than ["aaaaaaaa","bbbbbbbb"]!!0 and ["aaaaaaaa","bbbbbbbb"]!!1
00:11:21 <bsmntbombdood> compression algorithms...
00:11:40 <bsmntbombdood> 8b1f 0008 de47 4612 0300 4c4b 0084 002e 66b6 add7 0009 0000
00:11:52 <bsmntbombdood> 8b1f 0008 de52 4612 0300 4a4b 0082 002e 0d07 d1d7 0009 0000
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00:12:13 <bsmntbombdood> the first is 8 a's gziped, the second is 8 b's gziped
00:13:39 <oerjan> rather lousy compression :)
00:14:13 <bsmntbombdood> because it's so short
00:15:38 <oerjan> that method will not show similarity of strings, anyhow, unless you are very lucky with how the strings and gzip interact.
00:17:04 <oerjan> what you might do is to compare the compressed lengths of the two strings concatenated and each of them.
00:17:29 <oerjan> that might at least give some information
00:17:34 <bsmntbombdood> You could use a custom compression algorithm that is designed for this purpose
00:18:11 <bsmntbombdood> "aaaaaaaabbbbbbbb" gziped is 8b1f 0008 e00d 4612 0300 4c4b 8084 2824 02e0 1100 a19d 11b8 0000 0000
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00:19:14 <happy_song> what if one of my strings is digits of pi, and the other is digits of 4-pi?
00:19:43 <oerjan> however gzip doesn't help with things that have no characters in common, does it?
00:20:05 <bsmntbombdood> happy_song: it can't consider _all_ similarities
00:20:13 <bsmntbombdood> oerjan: i dunno
00:21:54 <happy_song> bsmntbombdood: precisely
00:23:01 <bsmntbombdood> the similarity of A and B could be the length of a program to convert A into B
00:23:03 <bsmntbombdood> a la sed
00:23:33 <bsmntbombdood> a la Levenstein distance
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00:27:33 <bsmntbombdood> "aaaaaaaa" -> "bbbbbbbb" = s/a/b/g
00:29:11 <oerjan> which reduces to kolmogorov complexity in the case A=""
00:29:32 <bsmntbombdood> right
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01:51:48 <bsmntbombdood> I think levenshtein distance of compressed strings is a good similarity metric
01:54:57 <bsmntbombdood> using gzip,
01:55:05 <bsmntbombdood> dist("a"*8, "a"*8) => 0
01:55:15 <bsmntbombdood> dist("apple", "appel") => 4
01:55:28 <bsmntbombdood> dist("apple", "bannana") => 10
01:55:41 <bsmntbombdood> dist("a"*8, "b"*8) => 4
01:56:43 <bsmntbombdood> dist("a"*100, "b"*100) => 6
01:58:04 <bsmntbombdood> dist("abcde", "edcba") => 5
02:00:12 <bsmntbombdood> using bzip2 the results are ... different
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03:04:53 * Pikhq almost has an IME set up. . .
03:05:08 <Pikhq> Just need to figure out how to get KDE to start with some environment variables exported.
03:05:10 <Pikhq> Sukoshi?
03:05:42 <Pikhq> . . . Found it.
03:07:07 -!- Pikhq has left (?).
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03:12:02 <Pikhq> やった！
03:12:32 <GregorR> ARRRRRRRRR, TEH NOT ENGLISH
03:12:39 <GregorR> [You don't have #plof on autojoin :( :P]
03:16:30 <Pikhq> 少しがいるか？
03:16:42 <GregorR> ARRRRRRRRR, TEH NOT ENGLISH
03:16:53 <Pikhq> It's for the other Japanese speaker in here.
03:54:04 <bsmntbombdood> ok, maybe min(levenshtein(a, b), levenshtein(compress(a), compress(b)))
03:57:24 <CakeProphet> polyglots with C and any language with #-style comments is so easy :)
03:58:07 <bsmntbombdood> because levenshtein(compress.compress()"the quick brown fox jumped over the fence"), compress.compress("the quic brown fox jumped over the fence")) => 6
03:58:18 <bsmntbombdood> where levenshtein(...) => 1
04:08:33 <Sukoshi> ちょっとね。
04:08:51 <CakeProphet> ....I want to write an operating system as a polyglot of a bunch of languages.
04:09:03 <CakeProphet> well... I say that.
04:09:05 <CakeProphet> but...
04:09:12 <CakeProphet> I'd probably go crazy
04:09:15 <CakeProphet> before taht happend.
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04:11:49 <bsmntbombdood> removing headers and shit from the gzipping should help
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04:13:00 <CakeProphet> most polyglots play around with comments to achieve polyglotness.
04:13:47 <GregorR> You almost have to.
04:13:51 <CakeProphet> C works well with bash-comments... you can make macros tha won't break the languages that treat it as comments.
04:13:53 <CakeProphet> yeah.
04:14:17 <GregorR> The ones that don't take advantage of comments take advantage of the intersection of language syntax :-P
04:14:47 <CakeProphet> heh... like... Python floor division and...... C comments????
04:14:53 * CakeProphet attempts to think of a use.
04:15:16 <CakeProphet> well..
04:15:20 <CakeProphet> that's still comment-based
04:15:28 <GregorR> You probably aren't going to find any between C and Python ...
04:15:33 <GregorR> I'm talking about things like C++ and Java.
04:15:35 <CakeProphet> function calls are nice and common.
04:16:03 <CakeProphet> yeah Python and C are tough... especially because of the differences in blocks.
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04:17:29 <CakeProphet> Perl and PHP are easy.
04:25:04 <GregorR> Perl is write-only, PHP is domain-specific (no matter what strange people want to do with it)
04:27:31 <bsmntbombdood> removing the checksum helped
04:27:38 <calamari> python is good
04:28:43 <bsmntbombdood> helped A LOT
04:29:12 * CakeProphet ...likes Perl. :(
04:29:34 <GregorR> Bloody Perl.
04:29:38 <GregorR> Godawful language.
04:30:01 <GregorR> They miserably failed to draw "the line."
04:30:51 <Sukoshi> Pikhq: I'm here sort of.
04:31:59 * CakeProphet draws the line _________________________________________
04:36:06 <bsmntbombdood> ok, CakeProphet, I think i've satisfactorily implemented an algorithm to compare strings
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04:38:33 <bsmntbombdood> and here she is: http://pastebin.ca/423400
04:41:11 <bsmntbombdood> note, that's the distance between strings, not a ratio of similarity
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04:55:24 <CakeProphet> hmmmm
04:55:31 <CakeProphet> what's it intended for
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05:36:20 <bsmntbombdood> CakeProphet: finding how similar two strings are
05:39:25 <bsmntbombdood> gives a value in the range [0..]
05:39:38 <bsmntbombdood> 0 = the same string
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05:57:53 <CakeProphet> bsmnt, no I mean... do you want to find typos... or do you want "pure" difference in characters?
05:58:07 <bsmntbombdood> what do you mean?
05:59:26 <bsmntbombdood> it'll recognize typos, sure, but i wanted to create an algorithm that recognizes strings like "aaaaaaaaa" and "bbbbbbbbb" as similar
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06:06:50 <bsmntbombdood> data compression is interesting
06:07:10 <CakeProphet> oooh
06:07:32 <CakeProphet> for typos... addings a transposition operation does wonders.
06:10:01 <bsmntbombdood> transposition in compressed data won't mean much
06:14:46 <CakeProphet> yeah
06:15:09 <CakeProphet> data compression is the art of finding similarities
06:19:40 <CakeProphet> I wonder how effective "macro-like" compression would be.
06:19:42 <CakeProphet> like...
06:20:09 <CakeProphet> say you split data up and then check each of their similarities.
06:21:04 <CakeProphet> you could find parts that are similar to a large number of these chunks... and abstract that as a "macro"... which can take arguments corresponding to the differences.
06:21:21 <bsmntbombdood> that's just backreferences
06:21:37 <bsmntbombdood> lz77
06:21:52 <CakeProphet> hmmm?
06:21:55 <CakeProphet> like...
06:23:20 <CakeProphet> x5=Hello,\0!         
06:24:18 <CakeProphet> you could compress anything that had that pattern into a macro like x(World) x(Goats) etc
06:25:11 <CakeProphet> for redundency that isn't always linear.
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06:37:28 <bsmntbombdood> or you could just make the decompressor an interpreter for a turing complete language...
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06:58:37 <bsmntbombdood> I'd like to see a step by step view of bzip2 compressing something
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07:31:51 <nooga> GregorR: not universe
07:32:03 <nooga> only a scene with bounds
07:32:38 <GregorR> Wow, that's so many conversations ago O_O
07:33:01 <nooga> photons would disappear when they are absorber or they leave the boundaries or hit the virtual photographic film
07:33:08 <nooga> absorbed*
07:33:32 <GregorR> I believe I mentioned something about an "arbitrary bounds"
07:33:56 <nooga> oh
07:35:04 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_tracing
07:35:06 <nooga> check that out
07:35:14 <nooga> it was done in java
07:35:32 <nooga> i would code in C with inline asm 
07:37:26 <nooga> http://www.cpjava.net/raytraces/DRUN.GIF
07:37:34 <nooga> results r stunning
07:40:37 <nooga> i think the best part of fun will be collecting computers for distributed rendering
07:48:45 <nooga> g2g bye
07:49:25 <happy_song> i woludn't exactly call that picture stunning.
07:53:02 <happy_song> amusing, maybe.
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08:01:04 <GreaseMonkey> eww, java
08:05:25 <GreaseMonkey> afk, food
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10:35:43 <GreaseMonkey> gonna go sleep, gnight
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12:48:12 <SimonRC> # I don't feel like dancing #
12:48:41 <SimonRC> Sorry about the pink text, but that guy has the most irritating falsetto voice ever.
13:10:31 * SimonRC indicates that this might be of some interest to people here:   http://jededag.blogspot.com/
13:10:45 <SimonRC> I know more than a little about the story behind it
13:48:08 <nooga> aaa
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15:08:27 <nooga> a q q
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18:59:29 <CakeProphet> hmmm...
18:59:39 <CakeProphet> I need a server... so I can host a Subversion repository.
19:02:59 <CakeProphet> or.. maybe find a free host... do such things exist?
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20:41:14 <LookA> Howdy
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20:41:53 <fax> cool
20:42:03 <LookA> It does exist.
20:42:31 <fax> O_o
20:42:38 <fax> why are tunes logging this
20:43:01 <LookA> ?
20:43:25 <GregorR> Some people wake up in the morning and read #esoteric logs instead of the newspaper.
20:43:38 <fax> haha
20:46:41 * oerjan points out that he reads #esoteric logs _and_ the newspaper.
20:47:47 <oerjan> although truth be told, i usually read #esoteric logs first.
21:10:33 <LookA> EgoBot: !help
21:11:16 <oerjan> The ! must be first on line
21:13:51 <LookA> Oh, thanks.
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22:24:41 <Ryacko> Please say "Hello, World!"
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22:29:48 <bsmntbombdood> dooo
22:30:07 <fax> oh hi bsmntbombdood 
22:30:59 <fax> you are welcome to join #lispcafe as is everyone else here :D
22:31:23 <bsmntbombdood> #lispcafe?
22:32:00 <fax> bsmntbombdood: yet another lisp channel, but there is good discussion a lot of the time
22:45:16 <RodgerTheGreat> I had an idea for an esolang recently
22:45:38 <oerjan> aha
22:45:40 <RodgerTheGreat> it'd be an emo-person based programming language called "Theirspace"
22:45:56 <RodgerTheGreat> the emo people (enodes) are arranged in a graph
22:46:35 <RodgerTheGreat> they can exchange messages via comments, and internally store opinions of other enodes (an endex, or emo-index).
22:46:53 <RodgerTheGreat> endices are naturally the product of what other people say about a specific person
22:47:25 <RodgerTheGreat> so comments can include phrases with specific meanings like "you suck" or "this person sucks" that influence endices.
22:47:46 <RodgerTheGreat> (the opposite of sucking would be being "totally HxC"
22:47:48 <RodgerTheGreat> )
22:48:18 * oerjan ponders the effect of the message "NN always lies about other people"
22:48:51 <RodgerTheGreat> and enodes can also store rules imparted via comments from enodes they respect, like "don't listen to <name>" or "tell people who write poetry to kill themselves"
22:49:20 <bsmntbombdood> heh, gonad
22:49:31 <bsmntbombdood> two data types, testicles and ovaries
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22:49:53 <RodgerTheGreat> rules can also be obeyed or ignored based on the cliques enodes belong to
22:51:01 <RodgerTheGreat> what do you guys think? Does it show promise?
22:52:18 <oerjan> it seems like it requires AI
22:52:24 <fax> it would be interesting if you could acutally execute myspace.com
22:53:11 <RodgerTheGreat> oerjan: what do you mean? The enodes would just be looking for and generating sequences of canned phrases
22:53:23 <RodgerTheGreat> it would only be designed to *resemble* online conversations.
22:53:47 <oerjan> ok
22:55:14 <RodgerTheGreat> although, I guess you could use Markov chains or something to make it more spontaneous
22:55:27 <RodgerTheGreat> then you could feed in actual emo-speak and the like.
22:55:53 <bsmntbombdood> computation through genetics!
22:55:53 <RodgerTheGreat> and generate a garbled mishmash of words resembling random emo-speak
22:56:03 <RodgerTheGreat> ooh
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23:38:01 <CakeProphet> so like..
23:38:11 <CakeProphet> is there anything better than Windows command prompt out there?
23:38:23 <bsmntbombdood> uh huh
23:38:26 <CakeProphet> ...and if you say bash I will FUCKING KILL YOU
23:38:27 <bsmntbombdood> bash
23:38:36 <CakeProphet> I meant... for Windows
23:38:59 <bsmntbombdood> wtf would you use windows?
23:39:23 <CakeProphet> ...because I can't get my network adapter to work for Linux.
23:39:36 <CakeProphet> ...and because I don't think Linux is too much better than Windows.
23:39:42 <CakeProphet> It's too extremes.
23:39:45 <CakeProphet> two
23:40:22 <bsmntbombdood> then don't use linux
23:40:25 <bsmntbombdood> use bsd
23:40:32 <CakeProphet> >.>
23:41:20 <atrapado> CakeProphet, try cygwin , a unix environment for windows
23:41:26 <CakeProphet> got it.
23:41:33 <CakeProphet> it's kind of clumsy
23:41:38 <CakeProphet> to use.
23:42:00 <lament> your mom is kinda clumsy
23:42:02 <lament> to use
23:42:11 <lament> cygwin is fun!
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