< 1174521644 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost every program consists of an initialization chunk, a big loop, some smaller loops called from the big loop and an optional cleanup when the program ends < 1174521655 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Writing a kernel without understanding hardware is probably like trying to swim without entering the water. :) < 1174521662 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1174521683 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"possible to learn, but ultimately not very applicable" < 1174522045 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :addition is hard < 1174522130 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :addition of what? < 1174522147 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integers < 1174522155 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integers? imaginary numbers? scorpions and apples? < 1174522157 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1174522158 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1174522163 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what language? < 1174522168 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C < 1174522184 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm writing some multiprecision integer code < 1174522339 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the overflow that makes it hairy < 1174522353 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In C I would expect the worst part to be the memory management. < 1174522604 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1174522625 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very true, oerjan < 1174522637 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, the hm... part? :) < 1174522654 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that as well as the memory management in C sucking things < 1174522659 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thing < 1174522664 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scorpions and apples? Who added scorpions? < 1174522685 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION slowly raises his hand
< 1174522724 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems pretty simple so far... < 1174522849 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AUTOMATIC MEMORY MANAGEMENT FTW LOL < 1174522866 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1174522905 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...with the ability to shift back into manual transmission (lol car analogy) when you want. < 1174522921 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes to bed
< 1174522935 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cya, SimonRC < 1174523017 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the simplest way to handle overflow would probably be to have more bits in the temporary variables than in each array cell < 1174523622 0 :nazgjunk!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"sleep" < 1174523795 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we should go with a far far unmonolithic kernel than say.... Linux. :) :) :) < 1174523819 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(eh, fix my grammar as you see fit) < 1174523861 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....with many many many filesystems... that you can switch between. < 1174523865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*than=unlike < 1174523872 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, HURD. < 1174523881 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WEIRD filesystems - at that. < 1174524092 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TRUE esotericness would probably require a WYRD filesystem. < 1174524107 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :file systems that look like MUDs - super-compressed file systems - stenographic/cryptographic filesystems - a filesystem based on worms.... somehow < 1174524404 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a filesystem consisting of rainbow tables in which you reverse-engineer MD5s instead of editing files < 1174524481 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who says we need an fs? < 1174524483 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SevenInchBread: by worms, do you mean rogue processes carrying data around in the computer, or physical earthworms? Or both/either? < 1174524516 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gigantic sandworms roaming below the surface producing spice. < 1174524578 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....essentially what lament said. < 1174524925 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...well, I'm kind of convinced that... to store data... you need some method of organizing the data - regardless of how you store it. < 1174524926 0 :ShadowHntr!i=sentinel@wikipedia/Shadowhntr JOIN :#esoteric < 1174524931 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woot, I can add!! < 1174524970 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What an antiquated conviction. < 1174525034 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1174525064 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether you call it a file system or not is regardless. < 1174525102 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :base 2**32 is the best < 1174525125 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(4294967295 4294967295) + (3) == (1 0 2) < 1174525207 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't you just use longs and forget about overflow? < 1174525216 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1174525300 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the contrary, base 3^42 is best. < 1174525910 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah... here's an idea. < 1174525951 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interprocess communication could use filesystems to communicate instead of the usual "stream". < 1174526958 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... representing files as linked lists allows you to create infinite files - and tree structures. < 1174527115 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :representing files as lazy thunks allows infinite files without loops. < 1174527147 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This message was presented to you by the Haskellers for World Domination) < 1174527153 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :represent files as lambd terms allows a turing complete filesystem < 1174527179 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :representing, lambda < 1174527233 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so.... basically... a simple change in the OS's representation of a file gives you quite a number of possibilities for structure... universally accessible from any language. < 1174527367 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wicked, dysfunctional people might point out that a next step could be using persistent objects. < 1174527384 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have persistant objects, they are called files < 1174527420 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean with code < 1174527453 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in object-oriented < 1174527533 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and at this point the relational database people will probably want a word in edgewise < 1174527585 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is when we throw them out of #esoteric and decide each file should be a running brainfuck program. < 1174527589 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh.... I have a love-hate relationship with OO. < 1174527610 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....brainfuck, coincidentally, is a very handy representation of the typical file. :) < 1174527629 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a running brainfuck program could work < 1174527654 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pause execution while there's no IO with that file < 1174527692 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just use... running brainfuck programs... file writes would just be like an input. < 1174527703 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1174527720 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, no < 1174527725 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no waiting... just pause when we want input... and then all the changes are persistent... < 1174527733 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you couldn't change the program < 1174527744 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :writes replace/change the program < 1174527749 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then we make a hot-swappable brainfuck. < 1174527848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks that Unlambda could hot-swap pretty easily.
< 1174527872 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is off to make another brainfuck derivitive.
< 1174527873 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course its I/O sucks. < 1174527883 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1174527886 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brainfuck... ON LINKED LISTS. < 1174527914 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must test every input against every possible value < 1174529009 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SevenInchBread: how's that different from brainfuck? < 1174529026 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too many brainfuck derivitives < 1174529202 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, i certainly think an esoteric OS shoudn't have files < 1174529331 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you use for persistance then? < 1174529349 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gnomes < 1174529362 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very small gnomes carrying papyrus rolls < 1174529382 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asparagus < 1174529474 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOUNDS LIKE A PLAN. < 1174529498 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: some sort of objects < 1174529525 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: a "file" is raw data that anything can read. It's a fairly bizarre concept. < 1174529548 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a file is an object < 1174529551 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, i have an mp3 file < 1174529556 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a song < 1174529562 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why should i be able to open it with a text editor? < 1174529569 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes no sense. It breaks abstraction. < 1174529599 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all things shall be the POLYNUMEROUS PAM... which is left implemtnation specific, to confuse everyone as to what it is. < 1174529602 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand, look at PalmOS for a working example < 1174529618 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bu bu but < 1174529621 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything is a file < 1174529647 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all forms of persistence, memory management, back scratching, and ultimate deliberation... shall be of the POLYNUMEROUS PAM . < 1174529763 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SevenInchBread: polyamorous < 1174529798 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: only in the same sense that "everything is a number" < 1174529809 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1174529813 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..... < 1174529820 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :files are described by numerical file descriptors ;) < 1174529832 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: it's not the kind of an abstraction a decent OS should provide. It's too low-level. < 1174529845 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all those "everything is a " people scare me.... it's like religious adherance to some weird all-powerful principle. < 1174529882 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....instead, those people should believe that EVERYTHING SHALL BE OF POLYNUMEROUS PAM. < 1174529916 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Polymerous Spam! < 1174529969 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....everything in esoos should be represented in overly verboose XML.... < 1174530392 0 :ShadowHntr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"End of line." < 1174531599 0 :crathman!n=chatzill@cpe-76-185-186-143.tx.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1174533433 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1174533448 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1174534940 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1174538310 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1174538314 0 :crathman!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]" < 1174539817 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1174540953 0 :anonfunc!n=dholman@ppp-67-121-238-228.dsl.chic01.pacbell.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1174541652 0 :ShadowHntr!i=sentinel@wikipedia/Shadowhntr JOIN :#esoteric < 1174541791 0 :digital_me!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1174542433 0 :Arrogant!i=Arrogatn@76.orlando-09rh15-16rt.fl.dial-access.att.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1174543325 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1174544738 0 :mule|!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1174547351 0 :sekhmet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1174547354 0 :sekhmet!n=pez@76.201.153.11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1174547617 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'night, guys < 1174548481 0 :ShadowHntr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1174548649 0 :anonfunc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1174548652 0 :anonfunc!n=dholman@ppp-67-121-238-228.dsl.chic01.pacbell.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1174549469 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you poor thing :( < 1174549498 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha... i scroll up and say something that'd be weird even there :P < 1174549801 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you poor thing. < 1174550399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1174550400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1174551040 0 :RodgerTheGreat_!n=Rodger@wads-5-232-13.resnet.mtu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1174551040 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1174554856 0 :Arrogant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1174558803 0 :mule|!i=mule@ppp-69-217-62-181.dsl.applwi.ameritech.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1174559298 0 :jix!n=jix@195.37.106.60 JOIN :#esoteric < 1174561119 0 :helios_!n=helios@gaia.n2.helzilla.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1174561148 0 :helios_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1174561236 0 :helios24!n=helios@gaia.n2.helzilla.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1174561308 0 :helios24!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1174561398 0 :helios24!i=helios@gaia.quasar-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1174561455 0 :anonfunc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1174561460 0 :helios24!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1174561482 0 :helios24!i=helios@gaia.quasar-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1174561953 0 :ais523!n=chatzill@chillingi.eee.bham.ac.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1174562357 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht" < 1174563078 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea: every file is a datastructure equivalent to XML... < 1174563098 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... but you have to all IO on the file as raw characters of XML < 1174563101 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1174563111 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that's just perverse, rather than esoteric < 1174563230 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does everyone like XML so much these days. Why not a readable format that saves on characters (IMO JSON is more readable and more concise but not perfect) < 1174563250 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nonono, BER < 1174563280 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We talk about XML a lot here because it is easy to take the piss out of it. < 1174563333 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :classic example: http://www.codu.org/rxml.php < 1174563343 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because everything in XML has to be formatted more redundantly than needed < 1174563373 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does nobody try to format XML in XML? < 1174563415 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because everything in XML has to be formatted more redundantly than needed < 1174563447 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and of course this can be continued ad infinitum if this is believed to be beneficial) < 1174563462 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, codu is GregorR's site: http://www.codu.org/hats.php < 1174563608 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one idea I had for a nonstandard file structure that might actually be useful is to change the one-many relationship between directories and files into a many-many relationship < 1174563634 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then loop it round so that any directory could be a subdirectory of any other directory (with the system maintaining lists of backlinks) < 1174563661 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, you could go further and use just a combined file/directory concept with some contents and a list of files it linked to < 1174563661 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have a netwok rather than a tree < 1174563675 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with that is that stuff can get lost < 1174563690 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a directed network where you're allowed to go backwards along the lines if you want, as long as you say what you're doing < 1174563694 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have files that are reachable but you have no idea how to reach them < 1174563708 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and things lack a canonical name < 1174563718 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it would be like an ordinary directory structure with more links < 1174563724 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1174563730 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as for canonical names, modern filesystems don't really have them anyway < 1174563743 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irc://irc.freenode.org/esoteric/../esoteric < 1174563751 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have no idea if that would actually work!) < 1174563754 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT JUST FEELS WRONG < 1174563788 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(BTW, when I clicked on that link, nothing happened at all, but I'm not sure why) < 1174563789 0 :helios24!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1174563789 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would there be a root node? < 1174563797 0 :helios24!i=helios@gaia.quasar-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1174563822 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least one. Probably one for the system and one for each user on a multi-user system, like c:\ and My Documents\ on Windows, or / and ~ on Unix < 1174563828 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooooh < 1174563835 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know about the plan 9 FS, right/ < 1174563836 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1174563847 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not too aware of that, < 1174563851 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/,// < 1174563852 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well look it up < 1174563881 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it implements much of its security by not even giving people a *name* for things they aren't supposed to know about. < 1174563888 0 :helios_!i=helios@item.n1.helzilla.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1174563888 0 :helios_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1174563899 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks it up
< 1174563908 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The two systems could be combined easily enough < 1174563910 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is lots of mounting and union directories < 1174563962 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :silly idea: you have union directories in Plan9FS, so EsoFS should have intersection directories, set difference directories, and complement directories. < 1174563965 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1174563977 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1174563996 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, intersection directories don't sound like a bad idea < 1174564005 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That could actually be useful. I'd like to see the symmetric difference between C-INTERCAL versions 0.24 and 0.25 < 1174564006 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but complement directories sure do! < 1174564019 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nonono < 1174564050 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have a directory containing all the picture files you have, and another containing all the files from 2003... < 1174564057 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard it suggested that a big long list of 'every file on the computer' would actually be easier to navigate than other systems < 1174564064 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the intersection of these would be all your pictures from 2003 < 1174564077 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tada! < 1174564082 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your directory system would be a fully-featured categorisation system < 1174564088 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like that featuer a lot actuall < 1174564089 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y < 1174564094 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes < 1174564126 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a sort of cross between a big directory tree and a collection of DB tables < 1174564131 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, wiki software has been doing this sort of thing for ages; in MediaWiki, the links and backlinks do what I suggest, the categories would do what you suggest if the developers got round to it, and subpages give you canonical names < 1174564132 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kewl < 1174564179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another thing I'd like is unlimited amounts of metadata in files < 1174564188 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have file-size and permissions at the moment < 1174564214 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Macs have that don't they? < 1174564219 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some do < 1174564237 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like a list of metadata so that we can find the right program to open a file, even if we've never come across the format before < 1174564245 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I personally don't like any metadata system between the small system unix uses and the fully-fleged resource fork of older macs < 1174564274 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ideally, we want to load our BF programs in a BF IDE, but Emacs will do if we don't have one (as they're text files) and in the worst case a hex editor < 1174564293 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or if really needed, you could edit the file using cat) < 1174564331 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BF programs are basically trees of strings of "<>+-,.", right? < 1174564348 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is the sort of person who uses cat /dev/random to get their terminal out of the wrong shift state
< 1174564356 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: yes < 1174564392 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, the actual characters used don't really matter IMO; <>+-., are just conventional so that people can communicate BF programs and have them mean the same thing at their destination < 1174564399 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should also be a way to get a list of options for opening, including options in the metadata as well as the programs you have installed (in separate lists) < 1174564435 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have a 'relevance' result like you do on search results, according to how suited a program would be for a file < 1174564445 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and each program could have its own algorithm < 1174564470 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a plaintext editor is going to be moderately-high-relevance for a plain-text file containing text < 1174564477 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, so that what google's "I'm feeling lucky" really is - the default open < 1174564506 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and moderate relevance for a program in most non-esoteric languages, and low but still positive relevance for a uuencoded binary < 1174564559 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, esoteric programming languages are reaching the state where they are actually useful in some cases < 1174564587 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For instance, ALPACA gives one of the simplest Life implementations around, and BF (not C89) is probably now the world's most portable language) < 1174564600 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linear Lisp < 1174564664 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is being chased all over the Internet by SimonRC at the moment
< 1174564668 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sent < 1174564769 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the principle of building enforced garbage-collection into all your commands is really quite esoteric < 1174564796 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, it's logic is like a functional version of BF (you have to decompose something whilst creating two copies if you want to copy it) < 1174564821 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/'// < 1174564866 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks that clog should respond to sed commands so that you can correct your typos in the logs too
< 1174564990 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISTR there is a plug-in for some IRC clients that does that for the client. < 1174565019 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't be surprised; surely someone had the same idea before me < 1174565194 0 :helios24!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1174565202 0 :helios24!i=helios@gaia.quasar-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1174567631 0 :jix!n=jix@195.37.106.60 JOIN :#esoteric < 1174568051 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~dof ,[.,]!Most simple BF programs also work in DoFuck < 1174568076 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's strange, I got the output in #bsmnt_bot_errors rather than here) < 1174568083 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec exec self.bf7+self.bf8 < 1174568087 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~dof ,[.,]!Most simple BF programs also work in DoFuck < 1174568087 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most simple BF programs also work in DoFuck < 1174568087 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most simple BF programs also work in DoFuck < 1174568119 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec self.raw_regex_queue.pop() < 1174568121 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~dof ,[.,]!Most simple BF programs also work in DoFuck < 1174568122 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most simple BF programs also work in DoFuck < 1174568237 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec sys.stdout(os.listdir("/bot/scripts/")) < 1174568237 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[] < 1174568271 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've taken to messing with bsmnt_bot in #bsmnt_bot_errors to avoid spamming #esoteric < 1174568303 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. well i just wanted to remind you that you can save files in /bot/scripts/ now. < 1174568331 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how? We could put the BF and DoFuck interpreters in there < 1174568346 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just with the usual python file commands < 1174568379 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't actually know much Python at all; I've picked it up mostly from the #esoteric logs) < 1174568410 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, what does it do with the files there? Does it run them on startup, or do we have to run them manually, or what? < 1174568418 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :manually so far < 1174568466 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :www.python.org/doc < 1174568618 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec with open("/bot/scripts/bf.py") as f: write bf3+bf4 < 1174568618 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SyntaxError: invalid syntax < 1174568635 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec exec "with open("/bot/scripts/bf.py") as f:\n write bf3+bf4" < 1174568635 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SyntaxError: invalid syntax < 1174568650 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec exec "with open('/bot/scripts/bf.py') as f:\n write bf3+bf4" < 1174568651 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SyntaxError: invalid syntax < 1174568667 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bot is still running an old version of python. i tried the same as you... < 1174568706 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec exec "f=open('/bot/scripts/bf.py')\nf.write(bf3+bf4)\nf.close()" < 1174568706 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/bot/scripts/bf.py' < 1174568728 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was opened for reading < 1174568740 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add , "w" < 1174568743 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1174568756 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec exec "f=open('/bot/scripts/bf.py','w')\nf.write(bf3+bf4)\nf.close()" < 1174568757 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NameError: name 'bf3' is not defined < 1174568763 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht" < 1174568766 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec exec "f=open('/bot/scripts/bf.py','w')\nf.write(self.bf3+self.bf4)\nf.close()" < 1174568779 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec sys.stdout(os.listdir("/bot/scripts/")) < 1174568779 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :['bf.py'] < 1174568794 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION came to the same conclusion as oerjan at about the same time
< 1174568806 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec exec "f=open('/bot/scripts/dof.py','w')\nf.write(self.bf7+self.bf8)\nf.close()" < 1174568810 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec sys.stdout(os.listdir("/bot/scripts/")) < 1174568810 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :['bf.py', 'dof.py'] < 1174568826 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec self.raw_register_queue.pop() < 1174568827 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AttributeError: IRCbot instance has no attribute 'raw_register_queue' < 1174568828 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec self.raw_register_queue.pop() < 1174568829 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AttributeError: IRCbot instance has no attribute 'raw_register_queue' < 1174568836 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec self.raw_regex_queue.pop() < 1174568839 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sys.stdout(self.bf7) < 1174568841 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec self.raw_regex_queue.pop() < 1174568848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec sys.stdout(self.bf7) < 1174568849 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :def bfarg(x,y): < 1174568849 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : p=y.group(2) < 1174568849 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : a=y.group(3)+unichr(0) < 1174568849 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : o='' < 1174568850 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : p=p+'!' < 1174568851 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : t=[0]*30000 < 1174568853 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i=0 < 1174568855 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : l=0 < 1174568857 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : while p[i]!='!': < 1174568859 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if p[i]==']' and t[l]!=0: < 1174568861 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : c=1 < 1174568863 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : while c>0: < 1174568865 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i=i-1 < 1174568867 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if p[i]==']': c=c+1 < 1174568869 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if p[i]=='[': c=c-1 < 1174568876 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops < 1174568887 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was about to warn you against that when you corrected your command < 1174568903 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~bf ,[.,]!Definitely stopped this working? < 1174568927 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now all we have to do is reload it from the directory, somehow < 1174569031 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec exec "f=open('/bot/scripts/bf.py')\nexec '\n'.join(f.readlines())\nf.close()" < 1174569031 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SyntaxError: EOL while scanning single-quoted string < 1174569044 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec exec "f=open('/bot/scripts/bf.py')\nexec '\\n'.join(f.readlines())\nf.close()" < 1174569052 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~bf ,[.,]!Testing < 1174569052 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Testing < 1174569055 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay! < 1174569078 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec exec "f=open('/bot/scripts/dof.py')\nexec '\\n'.join(f.readlines())\nf.close()" < 1174569104 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~dof [,.]!Testing < 1174569105 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Testing < 1174569138 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because outputting \0 with bsmnt_bot has no obvious effect, cat is actually one character shorter in DoFuck) < 1174569210 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: if you're interested in the code and don't want to flood the channel, do this: < 1174569218 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec sys.stdout(repr(self.bf7)) < 1174569218 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"def bfarg(x,y):\n p=y.group(2)\n a=y.group(3)+unichr(0)\n o=''\n p=p+'!'\n t=[0]*30000\n i=0\n l=0\n while p[i]!='!':\n if p[i]==']' and t[l]!=0:\n c=1\n while c>0:\n i=i-1\n if p[i]==']': c=c+1\n if p[i]=='[': c=c-1\n" < 1174569221 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec sys.stdout(repr(self.bf8)) < 1174569222 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" if p[i]=='+': t[l]=t[l]+1\n if p[i]=='-': t[l]=t[l]-1\n if p[i]=='<': l=l-1\n if p[i]=='>': l=l+1\n if p[i]=='.': o=o+unichr(t[l])\n if p[i]==',':\n t[l]=ord(a[0])\n a=a[1:]\n i=i+1\n sys.stdout(o)\nself.register_raw(r'\\S+ PRIVMSG (\\S+) :~dof ([^!]*)!?(.*)',bfarg)" < 1174569249 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~help < 1174569280 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh by the way, I invented a new joke language in my sleep last night. Look at this: < 1174569281 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!huh < 1174569289 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1174569290 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!ps < 1174569301 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, EgoBot's down < 1174569320 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to write Huh-language into bsmnt_bot instead, then. < 1174569370 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec self.register_raw(r'\S_ PRIVMSG \S+ :~huh', lambda x,y:sys.stdout('Huh?')) < 1174569373 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~huh < 1174569386 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec self.register_raw(r'\S+ PRIVMSG \S+ :~huh', lambda x,y:sys.stdout('Huh?')) < 1174569388 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~huh < 1174569388 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh? < 1174569420 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1174569472 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an esoteric language because it was already programmed into EgoBot before hand, just nobody noticed before < 1174569488 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's Turing-complete < 1174569539 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg! < 1174569587 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1174569603 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec sys.stdout(bot) < 1174569603 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xb7c9140c> < 1174569610 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right... < 1174569645 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did you expect that line to do? < 1174569653 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it ought to be possible to use execfile if the scripts is designed to modify bot < 1174569657 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*script < 1174569689 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for shorter loading < 1174569742 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec self.raw_regex_queue.pop() < 1174569743 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec self.raw_regex_queue.pop() < 1174569745 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec self.raw_regex_queue.pop() < 1174569746 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec self.raw_regex_queue.pop() < 1174569755 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec execfile('/bot/scripts/bf.py') < 1174569760 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~bf ,[.,]!Testing < 1174569761 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Testing < 1174569765 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec execfile('/bot/scripts/dof.py') < 1174569785 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think execfile works anyway in this case < 1174569812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... i suppose so, given the way ~exec is constructed < 1174569855 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec sys.stdout(bot) < 1174569856 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xb7c9140c> < 1174569857 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec sys.stdout(bot) < 1174569857 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xb7c9140c> < 1174569858 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec sys.stdout(bot) < 1174569859 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<__main__.IRCbot instance at 0xb7c9140c> < 1174569861 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1174569895 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what confuses SimonRC
< 1174569915 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders why SimonRC gave the same command three times
< 1174569937 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't actually mean to print out the contents, just check that it had the value i thought < 1174570256 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: to see if it gave the same answer < 1174570278 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it might be something like that < 1174570408 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, I take it MechaniQue is Turing-complete? From the wiki description, it looks like it would be easy to write a Minsky machine in it < 1174570444 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's also the only language other than INTERCAL I know of that uses NEXT for flow control; but it doesn't seem to have a FORGET statement or RESUME for values >1) < 1174570539 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BASIC uses NEXT, although not in the same way. < 1174570616 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, BASIC uses NEXT as a punctuation mark (like } in C or cis in Perligata). A 'NEXT statement' to me would always imply the INTERCAL version < 1174570628 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-106-96.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1174570672 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1174570694 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops, that was me, sorry < 1174570701 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I thought it had been throttled? < 1174570724 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION throttles ais523.
< 1174570736 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the sense of strangling you. < 1174570746 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guessed. < 1174570788 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I asked it for all the attributes of the 'self' object and their values, without realising there were quite so many < 1174570856 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, I discovered that 1174566977.4449899 was on its list of currently running commands < 1174571004 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now the only bot we have running is clog? < 1174571121 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't cmeme here? < 1174571135 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is, I missed it < 1174571188 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the good news is that for the first time, not all work was lost :) < 1174571199 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so we hope < 1174571238 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think the flood protection works for long lines. < 1174571254 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only for many short ones < 1174571261 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it had split its message over three maximum-length lines and was kicked when it tried to write the fourth < 1174571274 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right... < 1174571295 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and not all work has been lost for ages, I normally just copy the most-recently-working commands back out of the logs and type them in again) < 1174571738 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, #bsmnt_bot_errors isn't logged, so I might have to use a different method to save the experiments < 1174571861 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like logging it yourself. < 1174572512 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strangely enough, my client's so old and/or primitive it appears not to have a logging function < 1174572526 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't matter though, I'll find a way (copy-and-paste has worked in the past) < 1174572613 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it's so primitive that I have to identify to nickserv by hand < 1174572836 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you give a password on startup? that has been supported since the first IRC RFC. < 1174572914 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. The only startup option is to run a JavaScript script, with scant information about how to use that to give a password or to message NickServ < 1174572935 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need to message nickserv. i don't. < 1174572957 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ordinary irc password is passed on by the server to nickserv. < 1174572967 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have a choice: message NickServ or give a server password. If you can't give the password, messaging NickServ is given as a workaround < 1174573013 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically you have a client that is _worse_ than some older ones. < 1174573026 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait... < 1174573041 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you using a URL for irc login? < 1174573071 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about 50-50 between using a URL and using /join < 1174573089 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there might be a spot in the URL for login/password. < 1174573154 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try that now < 1174573160 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Testing" < 1174573226 0 :ais523!n=chatzill@chillingi.eee.bham.ac.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1174573245 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it didn't work; I got 'invalid IRC URL: (null)' < 1174573256 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1174573296 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it had problems trying to parse the resulting URL < 1174573455 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft's website about including username/password in URLs (it's about http, but it's the same for ftp and presumably irc too) is amusing < 1174573463 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* webpage < 1174573482 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://support.microsoft.com/kb/834489 < 1174573559 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems there are two workarounds for Microsoft disabling the feature: don't include a username-password pair (which is pretty obvious, really) < 1174573596 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and /instructing users/ not to include a username-password pair < 1174573734 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i found a draft IRC URL scheme which conspicuously does not include a spot for password, just a request to prompt the user for one. < 1174573746 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION eats dinner
< 1174573760 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose putting a password in a URL is a security risk < 1174573776 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but probably not much more than sending it over IRC in plaintext < 1174573935 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, Microsoft's website also has step-by-step instructions for opening the box that the software comes in < 1174574478 0 :RodgerTheGreat_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi guys < 1174574494 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1174574843 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5" < 1174574856 0 :mtve!i=mtve@mtve.vm.jvds.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1174578080 0 :felixx!n=felixxx@p57b5dd6f.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1174580481 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1174581710 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-091-096-034-058.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1174582466 0 :ais523!n=chatzill@chillingi.eee.bham.ac.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1174585062 0 :felixx!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1174585987 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1174586751 0 :RodgerTheGreat_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1174587410 0 :RodgerTheGreat!n=Rodger@rover-93-200.rovernet.mtu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1174588290 0 :SevenInchBread!n=CakeProp@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1174588358 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...have their been any efforts to convert the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript into a computer-readable encoding? < 1174588436 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that many traditional efforts to solve that assumed that the text itself was irrelevant and the code was encoded in the metadata < 1174588466 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some do < 1174589153 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SevenInchBread: Your new Dupdog-like language with a name I can't remember or type: do you think Wiki Cyclic Tag would be suitable as a language in it? Your new language provides the framework needed to make it Turing-complete by itself < 1174589432 0 :nazgjunk!n=htitan@wikipedia/Nazgjunk JOIN :#esoteric < 1174589464 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm.... Kallisti? < 1174589487 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... it's not finished yet... so I have no clue how it will turn out... until someone writes me some interpreters. :) < 1174589567 0 :mule|!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1174589747 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that you'll get syntax errors all over the place unless you harmonize all the interpreters. Perhaps only interpreters that don't have syntax errors should be used on any run, so programs can be simple using just 1, or complex using most of them? < 1174589758 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :syntax errors are impossible. :P < 1174589802 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, that means that you /will/ have to use every interpreter on any run, and so whenever a new interpreter's written it'll invalidate all previous programs written in the language < 1174589805 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way a non-esoteric language (Forth) shares the syntax with kallisit. < 1174589807 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti < 1174589819 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, forth is fairly esoteric, but it's also fairly mainstream) < 1174589917 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's impossible to write a syntax error HOMESPRING (although you can write something that causes the interpreter to generate a temporal paradox), but it's not really suited to how I expect kallisti will end up < 1174589930 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/(HOMESPRING)/in $1/ < 1174589985 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there will only be a certain set of interpreters.... it's a callaborative design - not the method in which you program in it. < 1174590054 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The basic idea was to create dupdog with a huge number of interpreters instead of two... but I'm too lazy to do that - thus I turned it into a collaboration. :) < 1174590144 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define huge < 1174590167 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....anything greater than 2.... < 1174590172 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-shrug- < 1174590197 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.1 ? :) < 1174590321 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1174590332 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU PROGRAMMERS AND YOUR PEDANTICS. < 1174590346 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MUST ALL THINGS BE DEFINED?????? < 1174590510 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :undefined behavior sucks < 1174590510 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do it like TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL with the list of interpreters changing every day < 1174590524 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :undefined behaviour is very useful in defining specifications for languages < 1174590612 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.... < 1174590655 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is beginning to become weary of all the strictness entailed in computing...
< 1174590816 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we should have a forgiving esolang that can withstand small amounts of mistakes by its authors. It would make a change. < 1174590831 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/its authors/people programming it/ < 1174590930 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...no one in "serious" programming language design seems to want this behavior... except like, Perl. I think it would be great to experiment with the idea and turn it into a workable idea. < 1174590995 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally it would even fix mistakes in the algorithm you were using < 1174591006 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a self-healing language < 1174591045 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that it would probably make it difficult to do things it "thinks" are a mistake, unless the syntax is very carefully designed < 1174591074 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right... one of the issues with Perl I think... the syntax is all weird because of all the corrective behaviors. < 1174591127 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could just have some sort of 'I really mean this' delimiter that you could use over small sections of code < 1174591132 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1174591137 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could work < 1174591193 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer the idea of designing syntax to eliminate programmer by either making mistakes more difficult to make or making it easier for the compiler to help the programmer find mistakes before the program can run < 1174591201 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*programmer error < 1174591273 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, I don't care much about the later... but I use a lot of interpreted languages that don't do a lot of nifty compile-time checks. < 1174591296 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just seems natural to me that an error occurs when it's tried... < 1174591353 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was an interesting example in a book about compilers I read once; it was the quadratic formula with one closing bracket missing < 1174591380 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the book said that although it was obvious to a human where it went, it wasn't obvious to a computer, because there were 10 places it could legally be put and lead to a non-syntax-error < 1174591442 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm, that's a good point. Computers have a hard time with ambiguity. < 1174591458 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...unless you give them rudimentary artifical intelligence. < 1174591514 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anyone read about the Elephant language? It's got some weird ideas borrow from human intelligence and natural languages. < 1174591528 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps set up a learning algorithm that'll pick up a coder's style and use that to guide corrections? < 1174591542 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SevenInchBread: link us up < 1174591681 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/elephant.html < 1174591881 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it reminds me of TwoDucks, only it's actually theoretically possible to implement < 1174592009 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it has a "don't" keyword, just like INTERCAL. Wow, it's almost esoteric! < 1174592041 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I suspect it's don't is more practically useful than INTERCAL's (which is redundant except for comments), though). < 1174592133 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It reminds me of... programming a human. < 1174592184 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only less frustrating < 1174592194 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none of this "free will" nonsense < 1174592203 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you don't have to feed programs < 1174592306 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know; IRP can be a pretty efficient language sometimes if you're skilled in writing it < 1174592376 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as you have one or more reliable interpreters, that's very true < 1174592396 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Find the greatest prime number! < 1174592429 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SYNTAX ERROR: PLEASE INSERT 25 CENTS < 1174592445 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.......................where?...... i don't wanna know < 1174592460 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: there is no greatest prime number. Program complete in ...um... I've lost count. < 1174592510 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1174592523 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, find the smallest prime number! :) < 1174592539 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: using one definition it's 2 < 1174592558 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there was a book I read once called 'Maths made difficult' which debated the usual definition of prime < 1174592568 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the title < 1174592576 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the definition 'a prime is a number with two factors, itself and 1', the only prime is -1 < 1174592577 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from the plural "maths" < 1174592582 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is ridiculous < 1174592599 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or british < 1174592604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a pretty good book; it was sort of maths from an esoteric perspective < 1174592648 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of it was highly mathematical (it's the only place I've ever seen the formula for solving cubic equations written out _in full_) < 1174592668 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1174592680 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but some of it was frivolous (it had in a list of 'Objections to fractions' one based on a misquote from the Bible, and answered with a different misquote from the Bible) < 1174592711 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still the word "maths" is ridiculous :) < 1174592755 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I generally take any example cited from a fictional work as instantly invalidating a proof. < 1174592760 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a common abbreviation in English as spoken in England, I think. (The North American abbreviation 'math' sounds strange to me.) < 1174592782 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh @ http://planetmath.org/?op=getobj&from=objects&id=1407 < 1174592794 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: I think what it did was take lots of arguments of different levels of seriousness, and 'refuted' them with the same level of seriousness < 1174592804 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1174592807 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1174592821 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another fact from the same book: most people know that if you multiply two numbers, you get their product < 1174592824 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: just because it's common doesn't make it any less ridiculous :) < 1174592847 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and many people know that the numbers being multiplied are called the multiplier and multiplicand < 1174592851 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....it could be... subjective? < 1174592864 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :likewise, most people know about numerator and denominator for division < 1174592864 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: because 'mathematics' is a singular noun < 1174592878 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: so is 'maths' < 1174592885 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they both end with 's', after all) < 1174592899 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, in an addition the numbers are tha addend and the augend < 1174592909 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in a subtraction the numbers are the minuend and the subtrahend, apparently < 1174592910 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, but it's a strange way to shorten 'mathematics' < 1174592924 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> it's only strange if you've been using "math" for your whole life. < 1174592929 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...like me. < 1174592936 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: let's not turn IRC in to Usenet here < 1174592942 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i suppose there's no good way to shorten an inherently bizarre noun (singular noun ending in s) < 1174592982 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's shorten it to MM for the time being, then, to avoid the argument < 1174592991 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I always understood it as "mathematics" referring to a wide body of topics, each covering a specific type of "math" < 1174592999 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: well, then you understood it wrong < 1174593005 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: because that's not the etymology. < 1174593009 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.... < 1174593013 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.... < 1174593026 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more importantly.... why does it matter? and why must someone always be right or wrong? < 1174593039 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usage is occasionally more important than etymology. < 1174593048 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I say... < 1174593051 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually wait, maybe you're right < 1174593065 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we call mathematics... MATHorgy < 1174593075 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...FROM NOW ON... AS IT IS THE NATURE OF OUR CHARACTERS. < 1174593078 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to do so. < 1174593093 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"google" is derived from a number's name. However, it's verb-based usage has only a tenuous connection with this meaning < 1174593102 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and YES I know the correct spelling is "googol" < 1174593118 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, numbers are functions in some languages (like my work-in-progress Underload) < 1174593131 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SevenInchBread: I support this course of action < 1174593134 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when applied to another number, it returns the argument to the power of the function < 1174593147 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when applied to a string, it repeats the string that many times < 1174593162 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when applied to a function, it acts like the corresponding Church numeral would < 1174593184 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...math creates crazy people. < 1174593189 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....I mean, MATHorgy. < 1174593427 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid google makes it hard to search for 'maths' < 1174593439 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it thinks 'math' matches < 1174593458 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you try searching for "maths" ? < 1174593466 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in quotes? < 1174593468 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1174593469 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works < 1174593478 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION bows
< 1174593519 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no useful hits, though < 1174593537 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how do brits shorten 'economics'? < 1174593545 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just searched for "math" limiting it to pages in .uk domains and found no useful hits either < 1174593554 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I GROW TIRED OF THE ARRAY OF BYTES. < 1174593568 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I don't think they do (I know an economist and they say 'economics' in full) < 1174593574 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need HARDWARE REPRESENTATIONS OF STRUCTURES. < 1174593579 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...in caps < 1174593640 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't think of any singular nouns ending with s that get shortened.... < 1174593646 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"in case I get caught up in an interesting conversation and miss my bus" < 1174593659 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...they both make sense to me.. < 1174593690 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who both < 1174593945 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : math and maths < 1174593999 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION eats dinner
< 1174594019 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION eats dinner
< 1174594567 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SevenInchBread: 'mathematics' and correspondingly 'maths' makes little sense to me because i'm not a native English speaker < 1174594588 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SevenInchBread: and it's really bizarre for a singular noun have a plural ending. < 1174594624 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SevenInchBread: it's something like 'mathematica' in all the other languages i'm familiar with. < 1174594645 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently it's only plural in english and french < 1174594671 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never actually heard maths used until today... it sounded odd at first, but then in relation to "mathematics" it made sense. < 1174594769 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... mathematics is, grammatically, singular... even though it looks plural. < 1174594916 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly, it's grammaticaly singular, which is why it's weird for it to have a plural ending. < 1174594959 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's singular in both greek and latin. < 1174595059 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematics, economics, gymnastics, hueristics, physics, ergonomics, cybernetics, logistics, statistics < 1174595072 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1174595079 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none of those make much sense to me. < 1174595080 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....just a weird convention with... fields of study apparently. < 1174595118 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a special case... sounds natural to me. :/ < 1174595121 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i basically have to mentally change the final 's' to 'a' < 1174595239 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very infrequently does the breaking of a "regular" part of English grammar sound strange to me. :P < 1174595285 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...because they're everywhere - the grammatical rules you follow for a word depends mostly on its origin. < 1174595366 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :analysis? < 1174595387 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :analysis sounds completely singular to me... where mathematics has a sort of semi-plural sound to it. < 1174595490 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1174595498 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1174595537 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mathematics is the art of pedantic rigour" and "The mathematics are of vital importance" both sound fine to me (the second one sounds a bit more formal though) < 1174595709 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SevenInchBread: yes, the grammatical rules do depend on the origin - and the origin is quite singular < 1174595725 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :analysis _is_ a singular noun with a singular ending < 1174595731 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the plural would be analyses < 1174595748 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'is' is a common singular ending < 1174595758 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 'cs' though < 1174595791 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh... I would divide it at "ics" myself. :) < 1174595806 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ics < 1174595811 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1174595832 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-shrug- doesn't matter much < 1174595850 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I define grammatically correct as semantically meaningful. < 1174595882 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it conveys an idea - even a bizzare one - the grammatic formation doesn't matter much. < 1174595941 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...even "colorful ideas sleep furiously" conveys an idea... < 1174595944 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er... < 1174595952 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :colorless green ideas sleep furiously. < 1174596017 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo < 1174596102 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ...has a fetish for wordplay.
< 1174596366 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_homophonous_phrases --strangely hilarious < 1174597959 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... interesting... anyone ever heard of the Synthesis kernel? < 1174597972 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an extremly fast OS kernel that makes heavy use of self-modification. < 1174598243 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :l < 1174599375 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, considering you were told about it in this channel... < 1174599542 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. haha, don't remember that. < 1174600457 0 :nazgjunk!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1174600478 0 :nazgjunk!n=htitan@wikipedia/Nazgjunk JOIN :#esoteric < 1174602635 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht" < 1174602857 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1174602901 0 :bsmnt_bot!i=gavin@abacus.kwzs.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1174602909 0 :bsmnt_bot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1174602965 0 :bsmnt_bot!i=gavin@abacus.kwzs.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1174603876 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1174603970 0 :SevenInchBread_!n=CakeProp@h228.247.213.151.ip.alltel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1174603999 0 :SevenInchBread_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :SevenInchBread < 1174604250 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... I think it makes more sense to represent concatenations as trees... instead of just returning the combined result. < 1174604263 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially with things like and/or < 1174605037 0 :UpTheDownstair!n=htitan@wikipedia/Nazgjunk JOIN :#esoteric < 1174605166 0 :UpTheDownstair!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1174605621 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-52-136.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1174605774 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1174605789 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goedel's incompleteness theorem proves that humans are super-turing < 1174605793 0 :RodgerTheGreat!n=Rodger@wads-5-232-13.resnet.mtu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1174605938 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because axiomatic systems are equivalent to turing machines, and humans can derive results not possible from axiomatic systesm < 1174606053 0 :nazgjunk!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1174606378 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1174606411 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: what results? < 1174606430 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1174606435 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1174606461 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a key element of your proof, unless your proof is supposed to be super-turing too < 1174606512 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Humans are super-turing, because i said so." - "But that is illogical!" - "That's right. Humans are above logic." < 1174606733 0 :nazgjunk!n=htitan@wikipedia/Nazgjunk JOIN :#esoteric < 1174606751 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out