00:00:05 C C# D D# E F F# G G# A B B# if that is right in English. 00:00:20 almost 00:00:37 Or do they use H for B# too? 00:00:41 C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B is english 00:00:44 no 00:00:48 oh 00:00:51 sorry :) 00:00:54 they do 00:00:58 too many standards 00:01:02 wait, I got that backwards 00:01:07 and all of them too crappy to use 00:01:18 better look it up 00:01:19 wow... I didn't even realize there was another standard. 00:01:24 aah 00:01:27 Bb B 00:01:31 Bb is A# 00:01:39 right. 00:01:41 it was you who misguided me :P 00:01:47 why don't we just use like... 12 letters? 00:01:59 so we don't have to deal with those missing half-tones. 00:02:05 in Norwegian at least, for historical reasons Bb is B while B is H 00:02:05 because pythagoras was an idiot 00:02:09 or pascal 00:02:12 i can't remember :) 00:02:15 typographical reasons, in fact. 00:02:26 in finnish too 00:02:31 i don't know the reasons 00:02:35 please tell me 00:03:03 They were written as different font versions of B, and one of them resembled H... 00:03:18 so eventually turned into it. 00:03:20 base 24 if we wanted to include some microtones.. 00:03:37 you hear them? 00:04:00 eh... there's a subtle difference. 00:04:04 it's common in Indian music 00:04:09 i don't hear clearly other than 12, since i didn't hear them early enough 00:04:09 i know 00:04:29 note ear i one thing you only learn young (note ear?) 00:04:55 It's 7 because that is how many there are in a single scale 00:05:11 yeah, but it's a stupid system 00:06:49 i should make my music language... then i could start playing with automatic music generation 00:06:59 i mean, the scales are harmonic. it's only when you want to mix scales and use dissonances that you need more notes. 00:07:07 that's pretty no-man's-land 00:07:18 yeah... Western music is based on harmony. 00:07:43 wouter's page has a nice article on that 00:07:45 yeah... I had an idea for a rhythm-based language... that broke up a beats into infinitely-divisible sub beats... 00:07:48 i mean 00:07:51 the scales 00:08:04 even on a finite tape of memory its theoretically infinite due to fractional divisions 00:08:19 but the whole scale thing is just a too-far-gone abstraction... 00:08:40 hm... brainfuck with an infinitely divisible tape might be something 00:09:05 well.. 00:09:27 you could use the numbers to represent microtones. 00:09:37 and have a finite limit to the tape. 00:10:02 divisions just "expand" the tape... as things kind of break down 00:14:13 You mean http://wouter.fov120.com/rants/hertz_12notes.html ? 00:14:35 yeah 00:14:51 the only rational thing i've heard said about numbers 00:14:56 okay 00:14:59 not the only on 00:15:00 *on 00:15:03 *one 00:15:13 but most musicians have no idea... about anything 00:15:50 it's hard explaining why a riff is good if ppl can't understand it's mathematical idea 00:16:09 wouter of course talked about a different thing that riffs etc 00:16:18 but scales instead 00:16:34 though it's a lot similat 00:16:36 *r 00:19:28 well, of course what has a good idea always sounds good 00:22:37 it's a fairly context sensitive means of expression... 00:23:02 If we just used instruments capable of bending across any number of frequencies... you'd have the full range of options... 00:23:25 sitars do something like this... you can tune them to some stalbe notes... while having quite a bit of leeway with bending the strings. 00:23:42 stalbe means? 00:24:23 ...stable 00:24:45 the frets serve as landmarks... but most of the tones are somewhere inbetween. 00:25:03 can't do that with a piano... which always has an exact tone for an exact position. 00:25:21 you can do that with most instruments 00:25:24 but you never do 00:25:30 in western music 00:25:41 yeah. 00:26:05 For blues and jazz guitar... nothing quite sounds right if it's not somewhere near (or slightly off of) the penatonic scale. 00:26:40 in western music you always have more than one note playing at the same time, the division to twelwe maintains a nice set of harmonical chords 00:26:57 styles, I guess... both genres center heavily on the penatonic. 00:27:41 well, subsetting the 12 notes can be done but it's merely a way of abstraction and only helpful for a composer 00:28:15 that's true... istars are usually one note at a time, with the resonating strings usually doing octaves. 00:28:38 indeed, it gets too complicated otherwise 00:28:41 -!- wooby has quit. 00:28:41 for the ear 00:28:53 i've always liked dissonance though 00:28:54 I was suggesting that the solution to the "perfect" musical system is that there isn't one... you just pick your frequencies for the song. 00:29:12 my piano teacher always yelled at me when i played tritonus all the time in my compositions 00:29:41 hmm... 00:30:06 it would be interesting to find some way to represent near-human-like performances via something like a programming language. 00:30:34 you mean like... make the computer sound like a human playing? 00:30:42 like... you could create frequency abstractions... rhythm abstractions... melodic patterns (and a way to make slight changes to that pattern)... 00:30:51 yeah. 00:31:16 dl quitar pro 5 and see how good the technology is today... 00:31:19 very minute changes patterns. 00:31:37 everything is recorded from real instruments and it sounds terrible 00:31:40 ( 00:31:54 (though prolly not the best possible program for it...) 00:31:55 * SevenInchBread is kind of fuzzy on how sound is encoded. 00:32:04 wav 00:32:12 uses 0...255 values 00:32:15 just raw in there 00:32:27 and there is this tiny thingie in the loudspeaker 00:32:38 that can be up (255) or down (0) 00:32:42 * oerjan only now went to the logs. Good grief how you have been talking! 00:32:45 ah... so wav is like the bitmap of sound files. :) 00:33:00 and at certain intervals it takes the next number and moves the thingien in there in the right place 00:33:01 yes 00:33:05 exactly 00:33:31 mp3 uses something very mathematical and clever, but everything is always reduced to wav when playing 00:33:50 since the physical way to represent sound in a loudspeaker is done like that 00:34:02 with a moving thingie 00:34:04 hmm... so if you could make abstractions of all the various musical patterns (rhythm, harmony, melody, timbre(?)) 00:34:40 i don't care about sound that much, i'm more interested in melody 00:34:49 i mean, mathematically at least 00:35:01 but 00:35:11 I want to create worthwhile music with nothing but a computer program... basically. 00:36:02 to make a square wave (the simplest wave) with note "a" you make the wave change the position 440 times in a second and put in a file 0 255 0 255 0 255... 00:36:03 sorry 00:36:06 880 times a second 00:36:28 since 0 255 is one wave only 00:36:41 you get it? 00:36:49 usually it's 44000 b/s 00:36:53 *B 00:37:24 so you do 50 0's, then 50 255's, then 50 0's etc to make the "a" note 00:37:41 but it wouldn't sound very good... 00:37:55 if you don't like square 00:38:19 you would need very very very subtle changes in the frequency... to make it sounds good. 00:38:22 square is used in old games and a the base of a few soloish tunes of a synthesizer 00:38:29 *tunes -> sounds 00:38:43 and i like it, but 00:38:49 you can use a sine wave 00:38:55 I'm looking for natural sounds. :) 00:38:59 so yeah 00:39:01 a sine wave 00:39:04 that is done - suprisingly - with a sin() 00:39:12 or like... some sort of imaginary number oscillator thing? 00:39:20 sin(t*something) 00:39:21 yeah 00:39:43 t meaning we are playing the t:t'h time step of the note 00:39:52 but even then... that's going to be a very very steady wave... hardly "the real deal". 00:40:02 natural sounds are done with addition of sine waves and random generation 00:40:10 and i don't care about it that much 00:40:16 so i can't tell you a lot about is 00:40:18 *it 00:40:22 maybe some dynamical systems stuff? 00:40:28 ? 00:40:47 chaos theoy, fractals, etc? 00:40:57 you can't make natural sounds since NO ONE has EVER been able to do them 00:41:00 period. 00:41:12 ...then I'll make unnatural natural sounds. 00:41:16 :) 00:41:18 you can record them and clone them as you wish 00:41:25 but it's the same as cloning humans 00:41:41 it works but how it really works is unknown 00:41:59 heh... you'd basically need to simulate a recording... at which point you might as well just go record someone. 00:42:08 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 00:42:26 simulate the release of air from vocal chords pressing against a microphone.. etc 00:42:28 you can make a continuation in python that returns values for the thingie (0-255) one step at the time 00:42:36 and use it to fill a wav file 00:42:38 and play it 00:42:40 yeah yeah... I get how that would work. 00:42:57 with some couroutinal crap you could send in some input for mild alterations based on surrounding stuff. 00:43:03 i did a random music generator once :P 00:43:11 it randomized the tone and the melody 00:43:11 ....how'd that go? 00:43:25 i liked the melodies... no one else did 00:44:13 and i was like 14 then (okay.. you're that age now and better than me so fuck you but anyway) annnnnnnnnnnnnd i didn't understand the wave things 00:44:19 so i made it in a bad way 00:44:24 It would be cool to apply some fractal-like mathematic stuff... 00:44:28 that's vague but... 00:44:29 yeah 00:44:44 i randomized a sequence for the thingie, not a mathematical formula for the sine waves 00:44:51 so it rarely randomised good tones 00:45:14 ah 00:45:25 you used a random sample of some typical tones? 00:45:32 like... the notes? 00:45:43 or was it just... totally random byte values? 00:46:12 yeah, oklopol is just really fond of white noise :) 00:46:15 i used [int(random.random()*256) for i in range(10000)] and then put those values in slower or faster according to the current pitch 00:46:53 oerjan i can send you some, it sounds terrible though, prolly, but i could create random tones and play them at varying pitches :) 00:47:06 so it has some coolness in it 00:47:18 but, i must confess, i like white noice 00:48:16 i have this experimental project called - who'd've thank it - brainfuck, i make white noiceish pieces using random generated tones and misuse of audacity 00:48:20 and i like it 00:48:24 I don't know why it never occured to me that I could play around with sound using programs. 00:48:25 mmmmmmh it's nice 00:48:28 being the huge music nut I am... 00:48:44 * SevenInchBread goes off to learn some basic stuff. 00:48:50 yeah, i love to find out i've actually done stuff in the past 00:49:11 with a bad memory like me you often get a feeling you've wasted 17 years and archieved nothing 00:49:16 hmmm... maybe a BF-like language that does something with sine waves? 00:49:35 i've been designing brainsick 00:49:49 brAInSICk that is 00:50:00 *BrAinSICk 00:50:03 anyway 00:50:23 brainfuck with everything in it, music, 3d graphics, networking, gui, etc 00:50:27 but only brainfuck 00:51:23 eh 00:51:24 actualy 00:51:26 *ll 00:51:48 i once made a language for creating music... i don't think i ever finished it 00:53:02 i've always been a big fan of c++, but realized just now i could actually use inheritance with it too and avoid having to make manual memory handling to get different datatypes to work :) 00:53:13 just now == 4 months or smth 00:53:48 i've done a lot of interpreters, always used one data class with a void pointer and enum for type :D 00:53:55 very oo... 00:54:09 maybe i'll stop the monolog and go to sleep 00:54:13 -----------------------> 00:56:08 ...I don't like C++ 00:56:36 hrm... I'm a bit rusty on my wave physics / mathematical represenatations of that. 00:57:11 hmm 00:57:22 if you have two wave functions going over the same medium... they usually add together right? 00:57:36 if the mediam is at 0 00:57:51 superposition, yes i think so 00:57:59 yeah... that's right 00:58:02 yes 00:58:44 of course.... there's more to it than that. 00:59:02 what? 00:59:14 string instruments produce standing waves, harmonics, fundamental frequency, partial tones etc 00:59:30 hmm 00:59:38 standing waves are the same thing 00:59:53 because we only consider the wave, not how it begins 00:59:56 *is created 01:00:14 harmonics -> result of the addition 01:00:16 ah yeah... 01:00:33 fundamental frequency 01:00:34 hmm 01:00:36 the standing wave is the result of the original wave being plcuked and reflrected across the string. 01:00:41 i don't know what that is 01:00:42 which results in... all of that occuring naturally. 01:00:59 yes, it results in a wave in air :) 01:01:28 if you can simulated a string stretched across frets... and a point of pressure from a finger... then you can simply create all of that without knowing what it is exactly. 01:02:02 partial tones: actual_note sin(n) = sin(n) + 1/2*sin(n*2^(7/12)) + 1/4*sin(2n) 01:02:29 ...I don't know Haskell.. 01:02:45 partial tones mean for a wave with a certain pitch there are always weaker one with a pitch that is a certain factor of it 01:02:52 that wasn't haskell 01:02:55 hmmm... oh that's neat... Haskell can define functions implicitly? 01:03:01 haskell couldn't understand that 01:03:12 but, yes 01:03:28 if i understand what you mean 01:04:05 well see... I'm trying to get more than just the note here.. 01:04:09 it's nearly correct Haskell, just change ^ to ** and add a missing * I think 01:04:22 yeah, prolly 01:04:29 but it's not what i meant :) 01:04:32 hmm 01:04:32 you start off with a simple wave... from plucking... which oscilates and reflects over itself. 01:04:37 might be haskellish :P 01:04:39 indeed 01:05:02 I want the sound of that initial startoff too... not just the result of it. 01:05:55 partial tones is essentially the result of Fourier transforming any period signal - it is pure mathematics. 01:06:02 and a harmonic is caused by the vibrations of the string on the other side of your finger... which may or may not happen (and has a very likely chance of occuring on certain frets) 01:06:21 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:06:50 essentially any periodic signal is the sum of a series of sine-like waves with periods that are fractions of the big one. 01:07:23 -!- oklofok has joined. 01:08:40 did i miss a lot? 01:08:45 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklopol. 01:08:56 you may have missed: 01:08:58 partial tones is essentially the result of Fourier transforming any period signal - it is pure mathematics. 01:09:01 essentially any periodic signal is the sum of a series of sine-like waves with periods that are fractions of the big one. 01:09:02 -!- crathman has joined. 01:09:08 yeah 01:09:16 that's what i was trying to say earlier 01:09:54 i just don't know fourier... except it's another trivial thing someone named after themselves because they were the first to publish the idea 01:10:06 yes, unsurprisingly, the mathematics behind music is pure mathematics... however there's obviously something missing from a mathematical model. 01:10:18 there is a lot missing from it 01:10:37 there is no mathematics behind music yet, i mean no popular theories 01:10:41 -!- crathman has quit (Connection reset by peer). 01:10:44 i've not found at least 01:10:55 -!- crathman__ has joined. 01:10:57 -!- crathman__ has changed nick to crathman. 01:10:59 there is wave theory but that's trivial 01:11:35 anyways, functions can't represent waves that well 01:11:44 i have a brilliant idea for the music lang 01:11:53 but it's not in it's final form yet 01:12:02 and requires some learning 01:12:15 heh the earlier mention of list slicing syntax: 01:12:31 it's basically you can use a function as a list of all it's values... but a bit different 01:12:47 I think you could use coroutines to effect the iteration of the wave function in subtle ways... based on certain conditions (i.e. previous notes). 01:12:52 You _could_ do map (list !!) [10..20] in Haskell, but it would be horribly inefficient. 01:12:54 makes certain things handy... i wish i had more time :\ 01:13:14 SevenInchBread yeah, it's kinda like that 01:13:24 you do a continuation for the wave 01:13:29 then generalize it into a note 01:13:46 since these things are always used the same way i'll insert them into the language 01:14:12 like for string instruments there's a natural descrease in amplitute... it starts off very sharp and then dies down in profressively more gradual steps. 01:14:26 if you know the language well, it's a perfect composition tool assuming i get the playing without wav files working 01:14:30 so you feed values into the coroutine to create that change. 01:14:38 but you can also play with harmonics etc easily 01:14:46 yeah 01:14:59 that's basically what i'll insert into the language 01:15:14 you have maths for sine wave so that basically you only change the derivative 01:15:27 as if you were just calcing more values to a list 01:15:28 BUT 01:15:45 it's all calculated to a simple sine function that just changes over time 01:15:52 hmm 01:16:13 i don't know if that makes sence, i'm not good at explaining my thoughts 01:16:38 heh... OO SHALL SAVE US 01:16:41 MAKE WAVE OBJECTS 01:16:48 AND ADD THEM TOGETHER WITH THE __ADD__ FUNCTION 01:17:05 and to handle the addition we shall isntantiate WaveHandlerHandlers. 01:17:21 to the WaveHandlerHandlerMetaclass as a metaclass 01:17:23 you know the bad thing is you have to understand math to make a wave gradually decrease in pinch 01:17:37 sounds like a square root. 01:17:40 but with changing the derivative only it's a trivial mental task 01:18:04 SevenInchBread what does? 01:18:05 a square root function thing over the amplitude. 01:18:09 eh 01:18:11 hmm 01:18:21 i'd need paper at this point... 01:18:24 anyway 01:18:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Square_root.png 01:18:47 if the wave slows down at a certain rate, there are errors if you only change the pitch 01:19:02 -!- crathman has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.1/2006120418]"). 01:19:13 amplitude... not pitch. 01:19:29 amplitude is trivial 01:19:35 it needs no language support 01:20:02 that you can do with power or 1/x 01:20:26 changing pitch at a rapid rate on the other hand is complicated 01:20:33 ....what are you talking about? 01:20:39 I'm just talking about in general... making waves. 01:20:42 and i have _some_ methods of making it easy to do 01:21:06 i'm saying it is complex to make pitch change over time 01:21:15 well... lets's figure out why the change in pitch occurs. 01:21:20 amplitude is of course not 01:21:51 ...because the programmer wants it to? 01:22:24 I think you could use a combination of math and some randomality to make it sound more natural. 01:22:44 yes, randomality is another thing of complexity 01:22:53 I mean... what occurs in the instrument to make rapid pitch changes... and how does it effect the wave if we were to slow it down. 01:23:03 the best way is to simply look at some waves in action. :) 01:23:33 because not only separate values of the wave change randomly - that leads to white noise on the backround - you have to change the pitch and amplitude randomly 01:24:06 well, you can deduce the math for changing pitch on the fly 01:24:39 i've been designing this 2d-music generator where you make blocks more in patterns you specify 01:24:46 og... duh. 01:24:52 they're totally different waves. 01:25:07 depending on the instrument... and how you transition between notes. 01:25:08 and little circles bounce around making waves that - when hit the ceiling - produce sound 01:25:16 there's going to be some interplay of multiple pitches going on 01:25:28 yes, as oerjan said earlier 01:26:08 partial tones exactly 01:27:11 you mean when changing pitch? 01:27:24 hmmm... I bet Erland would be good for this kind of job... 01:27:30 ...Erlang 01:27:38 :P 01:27:48 yeah... when changing pitch. 01:27:50 like... notes 01:27:57 yeah, same thing 01:28:22 OH. 01:28:24 hmm... 01:28:41 except of course notes refer to an abstraction of pitch where the growth has been changed to fit the working of the human ear 01:28:45 -!- ShadowHntr has joined. 01:29:37 the speed of change in a slurred note from one pitch to the next would be based on the physical distance between the two notes and when the next note needs to played. 01:30:03 not always... but something close to that. 01:30:09 pitch n = 440 * (2^(n/12)), where n is the distance between "a" and the wanted note in half-steps 01:30:25 that's the difference 01:30:36 assuming we're on guitar... the pitches would change in stair-case like manner... 01:30:50 yeah 01:30:51 because of well... the frets. 01:31:28 heh... and then there's the squeek. :) 01:31:35 hmm? 01:31:47 guitar squeeks :) 01:32:02 aah 01:32:05 harmonics 01:32:15 when you slide across the strings really fast.. it makes a shrill little screech. 01:32:17 confusing term 01:32:23 oh 01:32:30 that i'm not familiar with 01:32:33 ah 01:32:34 okay 01:32:37 now i see 01:32:47 that's not really a guitar thing... random noise 01:32:49 It's just background noise. 01:33:03 you could implement smashing the quitar then as well :P 01:33:08 *into a wall 01:33:37 the only way to produce natural-sounding music is to take into the account the dynamics between notes... and the transitions... rather than having a single value for each note. 01:33:45 you could. 01:34:14 and the clicking of the pick... a function of the picks density, the material used, the speed of the thrust, the thickness and the number of the strings. 01:34:14 yes 01:34:21 ... 01:34:30 * SevenInchBread is obviously stumbling off into semi-sarcasm. 01:34:49 well, i don't care about real life 01:35:14 it does not have to sound like a guitar if you ask me 01:35:23 or natural 01:35:34 by the way... sleep -> 01:35:59 sweet dreams 01:36:06 sure! -> 01:36:07 -> 01:56:18 -!- ihope has joined. 02:18:51 crappy day 02:19:20 Stop using the calendar as toilet paper. 02:19:22 (...) 02:19:38 and stay away from fans. 02:19:42 just in case. 02:20:12 Especially if you're in North Korea. 02:20:13 justin case is a loser 02:20:25 Justin Case, eh? 02:22:39 Anyway, about those ordinal numbers... 02:25:13 oh god 02:26:04 :-P 02:26:24 yes? 02:26:48 Well, grok them yet? 02:27:08 i don't know and i don't care right now 02:27:39 i already know enough 02:46:36 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 03:09:50 -!- SevenInchBread has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:10:52 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:42:38 -!- meatmanek has joined. 03:44:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:50:43 Y = SII(\f.\g.g ((f f) g)) right? 03:51:50 seems right 03:54:37 alternatively, \g.SII(\f.g (f f)) 03:56:07 no 03:56:32 ? 03:58:12 oh 03:58:14 yeah 03:58:17 sorry 04:08:14 -!- ooooo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 04:15:02 !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. 04:15:05 Hello World! 04:15:29 hey egobot, long time no see 05:01:26 -!- wooby has joined. 05:42:42 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:51:59 -!- ShadowHntr has quit ("End of line."). 05:57:57 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:20:38 -!- Arrogant has joined. 06:22:33 -!- digital_me has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:25:35 -!- goban has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 06:29:15 -!- goban has joined. 06:44:19 -!- goban has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 06:48:24 -!- goban has joined. 06:51:05 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving"). 07:17:37 -!- goban has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:18:04 -!- goban has joined. 07:50:13 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:14 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 08:01:47 Uryyb rirelbar! 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