< 1156291232 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a piece of something blasphical. < 1156291254 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or blasphemic. < 1156291288 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or blasphetic. < 1156291291 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is ALGOL considered esoteric? < 1156291299 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razor-X: reading SICP is more important than knowing Lisp or Scheme < 1156291308 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: It is? < 1156291326 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razor-X: if it wasn't intended to be esoteric, it's not esoteric. < 1156291327 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, unless you already know the material. < 1156291334 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which CakeProphet clearly doesn't. < 1156291346 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1156291346 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COBOL and BANCstar are not esoteric. < 1156291400 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently blasphemes are the main concept behind blasphology. < 1156291454 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm... so.... how about a language that changes itself based whatever the hell the programmer needs? < 1156291471 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thubi? < 1156291479 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say you want lazy evaluation for some project instead of eager... then you can just set the parameter at the very beginning of the program. < 1156291481 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: you mean Lisp? < 1156291492 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like Lisp... < 1156291493 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1156291509 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh... thunks. The eager kind. < 1156291522 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's how you do eagerness in Thubi. < 1156291555 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's thubi? < 1156291563 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe have keywords for different types of evaluation... you can switch in and out of different types of evaluation with a special keyword. < 1156291576 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Thue plus full I/O capabilities. < 1156291583 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or anything... typing... compilation/interpretation. < 1156291592 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thue already has full O, but not full I. < 1156291677 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, it has full O as long as you use the newline hack. < 1156291678 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: haha < 1156291695 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: please read SICP < 1156291724 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1156291759 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there some fundamental flaw in that idea? < 1156291795 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1156291813 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes - you haven't read SICP < 1156291830 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1156291840 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which actually looks at that < 1156291844 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :among other things < 1156291917 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a copy of SICP online? < 1156292005 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i pasted it quite recently < 1156292012 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html < 1156292032 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1156292049 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You better read in, CakeProphet, because I'm reading it, and it's you who's supposed to read it. < 1156292060 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1156292663 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm.. Ruby and Lisp both look cool... < 1156292879 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sets some masses on a gravitational field < 1156292925 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, they're marbles on a Ziploc bag with some water in it. < 1156292929 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same thing, right? < 1156292935 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much < 1156292966 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm.. a programming language that looks like pirate jargon. < 1156292995 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Lower the sails!" < 1156293028 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Yes, you should read SICP to get familiar with the concepts of Lisp. < 1156293045 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes yes yes okay I'll read it.. sheesh < 1156293075 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And pick up Guile too, so you can have fun with Scheme. < 1156293093 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may also want to look at the Abelson-Sussman lectures instead. < 1156293101 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which is for Common Lisp.) < 1156293109 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus, you get a guy who looks like a gnome in it! < 1156293118 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://swiss.ai.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/gjspicture.jpg < 1156293124 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They all look... really demanding on the coder... < 1156293155 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm used to Python's lack-of-shit-to-type-for-something-to-happen. < 1156293174 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, programming is dependant on the gray matter that exists betwen the cranial buffer fluid. < 1156293204 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I can accomplish something with less typing... I'm going to use that language. < 1156293210 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Lisp, with macros (not sure that much about Scheme's macros), it should decrease *most* user overhead effectively. < 1156293223 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although lisp looks pretty terse. < 1156293425 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the idea of a programming language specially designed for creating or adding onto a programming language. < 1156293425 0 :macgeek-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :macgeek < 1156293439 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeahp. It's a lot of fun. < 1156293452 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what makes functional languages fun, the language changes for you, not you for it. < 1156293458 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... Lisp does that right? But that's not its main goal.. < 1156293469 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No! It *is* one of its main goals! < 1156293524 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, are you going by the lectures or SICP? < 1156293585 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1156293590 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1156293624 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you going to read SICP first or read the lectures then SICP? < 1156293673 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno... I don't plan crap like that out... < 1156293681 0 :RodgerTh1Great!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1156293696 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_-'' < 1156293698 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION procrastinates, "I'll get to 'em..." < 1156293799 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programming isn't a passion of mine... it's a hobby... I have no rush to learn as much about it as I can... Python is just easy enough to be fun... everything looks too annoying to type. < 1156293814 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"everything else"... rather < 1156293825 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel slighted if I don't learn everything about a subject I'm interested in. < 1156293829 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh.. maybe I just can't get out of my comfort zone... oh well... at least I'm comfortable. < 1156293830 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't like feeling slighted. < 1156293847 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quantum computing is the only thing I've really taken on faith. < 1156293879 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just simply don't care... life is here for me to have fun... if I'm not having fun I'm wasting my life. < 1156293887 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm having fun. < 1156293903 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love learning languages, finding grammar rules, programming, creating new languages, dreaming up stories, etc, etc. < 1156293904 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrugs* Different people have different ways of having fun... < 1156293909 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1156293922 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I personally love the idea of -making- programming languages... but using them is a little less attractive. < 1156293937 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a creative type too :D < 1156293947 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. Piano is fun too. < 1156293957 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION plays guitar. < 1156293967 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might play violin one day. < 1156293969 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That maybe so, but you should be familiar with the concepts of other languages so you don't reinvent the wheel and so you have a basis of ideas. < 1156293989 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup... but I'll get to it later... < 1156293991 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ``know'' more languages than I can remember, but I doubt I can program much in them. I know their concepts though. < 1156293996 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No rush. < 1156294020 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know most of the concepts on the surface... nothing in-depth though. < 1156294023 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But my human languages are all pretty good. < 1156294047 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht" < 1156294059 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In that I haven't forgotten them.) < 1156294303 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: no, you don't know most concepts even on the surface < 1156294316 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: when only today you had to be told what lists are < 1156294325 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it really doesn't get any more basic than that < 1156294337 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1156294349 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1156294357 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you build languages, you should know how a computer works on a certain level. < 1156294394 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you know your concepts, write a BF->Python compiler in Python. < 1156294593 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm... < 1156294601 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is actually really easy. < 1156294604 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only thing I really enjoy doing is... hmmm... music and writing... < 1156294606 0 :RodgerTheGreat!n=RodgerTh@c-68-41-14-137.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156294610 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even coding seems like a pain to me. < 1156294635 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coding is a great joy. . . < 1156294638 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1156294699 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably the most enjoyable part of joding is taking what I've crerated and writing comments for it. < 1156294798 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is everybody putting some ++++++++++[>++++++<-]>.---------. into their submissions for the contest? < 1156294840 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf ++++++++++[>++++++<-]>.---------. < 1156294844 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1156294848 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1156294859 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reads the logs upon occasion. :) < 1156294868 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :music? < 1156294873 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what instruments do you play? < 1156294878 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He plays guitar. < 1156294886 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guitar, trombone, harmonica, a little bit of piano. < 1156294892 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There y'are. < 1156294900 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh.. and the kazzoo... ^_^ < 1156294914 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, cool < 1156294916 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i play harmonica < 1156294946 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guitar is my main focus though < 1156294960 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :classical, acoustic, electric? < 1156294993 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an acoustic and an electirc... oh and a bass < 1156295027 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, what kind of music do you play? < 1156295067 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh.... blues/rock (not shitty new rock...)/psychadelic-ish-stuff/whatever < 1156295082 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly improvisational. < 1156295088 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1156295091 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone who plays music loves calling one genre bad :D < 1156295096 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Playing something planned bores me to no end. < 1156295122 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh... it's not bad.. I just personally don't like it.. everything is preference though. < 1156295133 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's really... uh... simple to play... < 1156295138 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's boring. < 1156295147 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer classical to play, personally. < 1156295153 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :European Classical, to be exact. < 1156295159 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've considered learning some classical. < 1156295191 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The style that is... then I would imrpov classical-sounding stuff. < 1156295203 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This keyboard feels really weird since I've gotten used to touching that Ziploc bag filled with water. < 1156295237 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can improv something classical-sounding.. but I don't really know anything about it so it's probably something generic sounding. < 1156295239 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Classical sounding music is pretty definitely defined, you know. There's a set time and a set of scales which people love to play on. < 1156295241 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Music theory is not my forte. < 1156295258 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Music theory is fun. One of my favorite parts of music. < 1156295286 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh < 1156295308 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. I'm not much of a romantic, if you haven't noticed. < 1156295326 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is probably a romantic... maybe < 1156295337 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Playing something written on a sheet feels.... emotionless. < 1156295405 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is listening to Icemachine: Revolution by skyrunner from BrainControl < 1156295428 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye for now all, see you later < 1156295441 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cya < 1156295467 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is listening to Nothing -- No-one [0:00/0:00]. < 1156295519 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not a big fan of music theory, not sure how much playing classical has to do with it < 1156295540 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way i see it < 1156295561 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just music, that happens to be thousands times better than whatever crap you're going to improvise; so why not play it? < 1156295562 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A good bit.. classical pretty much -is0 music theory. < 1156295565 0 :tgwizard!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1156295572 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: you are wrong. < 1156295589 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is listening to White Noise -- Frodo [time unknown] < 1156295614 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has music theory down pretty well. . . < 1156295621 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As well as actual *music*. ;) < 1156295637 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know the basics... otherwise I would sound terrible improvising. < 1156295661 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, going home, bbl < 1156295792 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cya < 1156296293 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uggh. I didn't know Abelson is so *boring*. < 1156296377 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm... Hal Abelson? < 1156296445 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Abelson ? < 1156296688 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The guy from the Lisp lectures. < 1156296711 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He has just spent 19 minutes teaching me about black boxes. < 1156296733 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19 minutes? < 1156296741 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1156296763 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was struggling not to fall asleep. < 1156296776 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A black box is a function that we don't know anything about, but we can still feed inputs to a black box and get outputs. < 1156296781 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Black boxes in 19 seconds. < 1156296788 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're a slow reader, that is. < 1156296790 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or to float off into magic-land when a teacher goes into some horribly boring lecture. < 1156296843 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shrugs < 1156296852 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't think they were too bad. < 1156296863 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear they're great but, please tell me it gets more interesting. < 1156296868 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are somewhat long. < 1156296897 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they don't get better? < 1156296908 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've only been through about half of them, but I thought they improved. < 1156296921 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might want to just skip ahead if you already know the language. < 1156296951 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, his introduction seems aimed for the completely new person into programming. < 1156296961 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's kinda the idea. < 1156296965 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. :P < 1156296974 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, just skip ahead. < 1156296981 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Principles of abstraction become pretty obvious after coding for a while. < 1156296996 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What lecture does the meat start from? < 1156297017 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I mostly watched them to learn the semantics of LISP more thoroughly. < 1156297023 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I still say Sussman looks like a gnome.) < 1156297036 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate it when teaching stuff assumes you already know shit about programming.. < 1156297047 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I swear I've yet to find instructions for someone who knows JACKSHIT about programming... < 1156297058 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of what I know is self-taught and learned from others. < 1156297087 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You think I've taken a programming course in my life? :D < 1156297101 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I said, I haven't been through all of them, but I imagine the last couple would be pretty interesting. < 1156297112 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or any math course above Pre-Calculus Algebra and Trigonometry? < 1156297118 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do think it would help a bit if material actually -explained- terminology... < 1156297131 0 :Weirdbro!n=Weirdbro@pool-141-152-252-232.phlapa.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156297138 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1156297157 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since I started when I was 7 and in the ages of dial-up, the help of other people was not really there. < 1156297165 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat, That function-as-list idea was conceptualized in my head with Python... and in Python lists are arrays. < 1156297169 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to learn to read and absorb things on my own. < 1156297170 0 :macgeek!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :macgeek- < 1156297176 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION had no computer at age 7. :( < 1156297178 0 :Weirdbro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRP: Please, some one write the 12 number of the Fibonacci Sequence in binary < 1156297192 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hark- is that a fellow mac user? < 1156297197 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do it j00rself. < 1156297199 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bub. < 1156297206 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :error = lazy evaluation doesn't want to try. < 1156297212 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hark! Is that a slave of proprietary software? < 1156297224 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1156297232 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hark! Why is everyone using ``Hark'' ? < 1156297234 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Calculation could not be performed: programmer too lazy. < 1156297238 0 :Weirdbro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Nice < 1156297271 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, dude. you're every bit as much a slave to software created by other people as I am. everyone using a computer stands on the shoulders of giants. < 1156297294 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proprietary is not equal to software created by others. < 1156297298 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: The difference is that I can actually stand on the shoulders of giants instead of being stomped on by them. < 1156297299 0 :Weirdbro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hark! I am mostly not a slave of proprietary software. My Linux just happens to be running in a virtual machine inside of windows. < 1156297319 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is depressed... someone hand me a shoulder to cry on :( < 1156297325 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you edit your WM in real time? Ho ho. < 1156297332 0 :Weirdbro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION rips off his shourlder < 1156297335 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION detaches a spare shoulder and hands it to CakeProphet. < 1156297341 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you edit your WM at all? < 1156297349 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That too. < 1156297352 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hugs Ratpoison < 1156297362 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :StumpWM and Ratpoison for the win! < 1156297373 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would I want to modify my window manager? It does precisely what I need. < 1156297378 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is temporarily enslaved by nonfree software. . . Curse you, Nvidia! < 1156297399 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: That's because you haven't yet thought of ways of making it better. < 1156297399 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm having one of those "I have no purpose" fits of depression. < 1156297424 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat, BRAINSTORM FASTER DUMBASS. < 1156297427 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm bored right now at Abelson and want to take a shower and the read some more of my Japanese novel. < 1156297438 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here in the world of GNU/Linux, if I want a new feature, I can write it myself, ask a friend to do it for me, pay a programmer to do it, or do without. < 1156297440 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*then < 1156297476 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Out there in the world of nonfree software, if you want a new feature, you can beg and pay for the upgrade with the feature, beg and not get the new feature, or not beg and just do without. < 1156297492 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you can beg and pay and get no upgrade. < 1156297511 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razor-X: Still getting raped up the ass. < 1156297512 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use my computer to accomplish tasks, not to constantly tweak my environment in pursuit of some lofty "perfect environment". I am pleased with my machine how it is, and I strike a useful balance between having unix at my fingertips and being able to run software without being forced to compile it. < 1156297521 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you could engage conversations with windows and mac users about how awesome linux is. < 1156297546 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love my perfect environment :3. < 1156297553 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use my computer to accomplish tasks, and if it doesn't yet accomplish a task I want, it will in a week. < 1156297561 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hehe. < 1156297585 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your computer doesn't yet accomplish a task you want, it *might* after several months of begging and a paid upgrade. < 1156297602 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least I'm not instantly dismissive and elitist to users of "inferior" operating systems. It's called choice. < 1156297603 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In many ways... the computers are our bitches... which is why I follow the-coder-should-have-it-easy philosophy < 1156297605 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Linux has its faults too, dun forget. < 1156297619 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My bitch does my work... I just tell it what to do in the easiest way possible :D < 1156297622 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Cough* Encoding software *Cough*. < 1156297625 0 :Weirdbro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would love Linux even more if all the proprietary stuff suddenly became FOSS by means of the Linux penguin destroying the resistance. < 1156297627 0 :Weirdbro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Ex-Chat" < 1156297633 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"all your basment are belong to bsmntbombdood" < 1156297666 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have the video background neccessary to code encoding software :(. < 1156297691 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "I have no purpose" depression can be remedied easily by finding someone who cares about you. < 1156297710 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always have a purpose in my self-centered world. < 1156297712 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And stuff. < 1156297714 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "easily" in that sentence is misleading. < 1156297755 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1156297773 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pah. Just ask somebody if he cares about you, and if the answer's "no", ask somebody else. < 1156297810 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you decide to join a clique and conform to the mores of a large social group, it's anything but simple to find someone that cares about you. The internet can be a lonely place. < 1156297815 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I'm pretty sure the answer here will be "no"... and I don't really... know a lot of people.. < 1156297838 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here? < 1156297839 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The answer: Become hopelessly introverted and egotistical. < 1156297849 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The WORLD is at fault, not YOU :D. < 1156297853 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, we seem pretty alike. < 1156297882 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love Python, despite the fact that I don't know much and it doesn't have the features I want. < 1156297886 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razor-X seems to have stumbled across the underlying cause of myspace's popularity. < 1156297892 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1156297906 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is really quite depressing. < 1156297932 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, I also realize that to these other people that believe they exist but are a figment of my imagination, they don't have the synapses space dominated in my brain to care about my likes and dislikes. < 1156297946 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/dominated/allocated/ < 1156297977 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1156298015 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a fact that the only person we can be sure is real is ourself, and even then it can be difficult. < 1156298027 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1156298055 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. CakeProphet, I'd like to learn Python tomorrow, and if you commit suicide or something, I will be very unhappy. < 1156298060 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this brings into play the question of sentience: is there ANY way someone can really prove to you that they're sentient? I'd say there isn't. < 1156298092 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the text-only communication in IRC only serves to reinforce this concept. < 1156298096 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: Go and read a reference manual. Bub. < 1156298108 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pah... < 1156298121 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no no... I'm way more knowledgable than a reference manual. < 1156298123 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1156298125 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like coding in Lisp again. < 1156298136 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, that's it. < 1156298152 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you depressed now? < 1156298162 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everybody who has a nick starting with "r" is now banned from ##quantum. < 1156298167 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1156298184 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, it just so happens that everybody who has a nick starting with "r" can use the UNBAN command on ChanServ. < 1156298200 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So feel free to unban yourselves at any time. < 1156298224 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now you've made me angry. < 1156298232 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will now ban every nickname that starts with `z'. < 1156298246 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1156298249 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU CAN'T STOP ME. < 1156298250 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely certain what that would accomplish. < 1156298263 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a display of my godlike power. < 1156298293 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, yes. the deistic display. < 1156298296 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyhow. I feel icky and unfeminine. Shower time. < 1156298297 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=root@unaffiliated/bsmntbombdood JOIN :#esoteric < 1156298306 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1156298349 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1156298419 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razor-X: so where's the ban? < 1156298876 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1156298970 0 :Igor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1156298988 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea how Igor managed to stay in without PONGing. < 1156298989 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@67-21-19-37.clspco.adelphia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156299452 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: hm? < 1156299454 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi pikhq < 1156299570 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@124.48.237.50 JOIN :#esoteric < 1156299968 0 :Weirdbro_!n=Weirdbro@pool-141-152-252-232.phlapa.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156300003 0 :Weirdbro_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRP: Please output a link to a Brainfuck tutorial < 1156300083 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Error: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck only links to tutorials, but is not in itself a tutorial: programmer thought that this would help, but didn't parse it literally. < 1156300096 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exit(ERROR_FAILURE); < 1156300097 0 :Weirdbro_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gosh, this IRP server is useless. I'd better go to one with strict evalutation. < 1156300173 0 :Weirdbro_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1156302235 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1156303410 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Ex-Chat" < 1156303691 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf61f7.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156303735 0 :ihope_!n=foo@c-71-205-100-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156304370 0 :ivan`!i=ivan@wikipedia/ivan JOIN :#esoteric < 1156304759 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1156305565 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HELLO I AM MUHAMMED MUSSAFFAH IL BAN FALLAFEL I AM FROM MADAGASCAR AND NEED A TRUSTWORTHY ACCOUNT IN YOUR COUNTRY I GOT YOUR CHANNEL NAME FROM A FRIEND WHO SAYS YOU CAN BE TRUSTED I NEED TO TRANSFER LARGE SUMS OF MONEY ($4000000 USD) PLEASE EMAIL this_is_not_a_spam_email_address@yahoo.com WITH YOUR BANK INFORMATION AND I WILL SEND YOU THE MONEY YOU WILL GET 15% AS COMPENSATION THANK YOU GOD BLESS YOU JESUS WUVS U KTHXBYE < 1156305615 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, to combine it with other common forms of spam ... < 1156305663 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a spam-based programming language, mayhap? < 1156305668 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Ex-Chat" < 1156305678 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HELLO I AM MUHAMMED MUSSAFFAH IL BAN FALLAFEL I AM FROM MADAGASCAR AND NEED A TRUSTWORTHY ACCOUNT IN YOUR COUNTRY I GOT YOUR CHANNEL NAME FROM A FRIEND WHO SAYS YOU CAN BE TRUSTED I NEED TO TRANSFER LARGE SUMS OF PENIS ENLARGEMENT (10 INCHES IN ONE WEEK WOW) PLEASE EMAIL this_is_not_a_spam_email_address@yahoo.com WITH YOUR BANK INFORMATION AND I WILL SEND YOU THE MONEY YOU WILL GET 8 INCHES IN TWO WEEKS AS COMPENSATION THANK YOU GOD BLESS YOU JESUS WUVS < 1156305678 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :U KTHXBYE < 1156305708 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, God. . . < 1156305717 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a very good idea. < 1156305719 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly. < 1156305720 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1156305783 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HELLO I AM MUHAMMED MUSSAFFAH IL BAN FALLAFEL I AM FROM MADAGASCAR AND NEED A TRUSTWORTHY ACCOUNT IN YOUR COUNTRY I GOT YOUR CHANNEL NAME FROM A FRIEND WHO SAYS YOU CAN BE TRUSTED I NEED TO TRANSFER LARGE SUMS OF PENIS ENLARGEMENT (10 INCHES IN ONE WEEK WOW) PLEASE EMAIL this_is_not_a_spam_email_address@yahoo.com WITH YOUR BANK INFORMATION AND I WILL SEND YOU THE MONEY YOU WILL GET 8 INCHES IN TWO WEEKS AS COMPENSATION THANK YOU GOD BLESS YOU JESUS WUVS < 1156305784 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :U KTHXBYE IF YOU FORWARD THIS EMAIL TO SEVEN PEOPLE JESUS WONT STRIKE YOU DOWN ADD YOUR EMAIL HERE: moron@hotmail.com dumbass@hotmail.com AND YOU WILL GET LOTS OF PENIS ENLARGEMENT ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS SEND 1 INCHE OF PENIS ENLARGEMENT TO EACH NAME ON THE LIST THEN ADD YOURSELF AND EMAIL SEVEN PEOPLE IT REALLY WORKS WOW < 1156305825 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :No route to host < 1156307485 0 :ivan`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1156309548 0 :CXI!n=Sanity@dialup-167.89.221.203.acc50-kent-syd.comindico.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1156310008 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1156310015 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1156310105 0 :RodgerTheGreat!n=Rodger@c-68-41-14-137.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156310162 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1156310295 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1156310357 0 :RodgerTheGreat!n=Rodger@c-68-41-14-137.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156310376 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops < 1156310652 0 :Arrogant!i=Scott@214.orlando-09-10rs.fl.dial-access.att.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156311775 0 :ivan`!i=ivan@wikipedia/ivan JOIN :#esoteric < 1156312047 0 :ivan`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1156312389 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1156312449 0 :RodgerTheGreat!n=Rodger@c-68-41-14-137.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156313211 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1156313324 0 :ivan`!i=ivan@wikipedia/ivan JOIN :#esoteric < 1156316999 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1156317742 0 :macgeek-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :macgeek < 1156318654 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is anyone submitting the trig function calculator to the contest? < 1156319072 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would we know? < 1156319096 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, read the Talk page. < 1156319322 0 :macgeek!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :macgeek- < 1156319826 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm asking the contestants. < 1156319999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1156320000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1156320172 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1156320225 0 :GregorR-W!n=chatzill@jffwprtest.jf.intel.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1156320275 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're at work now?! < 1156320469 0 :Arrogant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razor-X, when I get married I demand you be best man. < 1156320498 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man? < 1156320504 0 :Arrogant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1156320505 0 :Arrogant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man. < 1156320509 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why Man? < 1156320516 0 :Arrogant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because. < 1156320540 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1156320545 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makes sense. < 1156325955 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1156325957 0 :wooby!n=alan@ny-lancastercadent4g1-3a-236.buf.adelphia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156331131 0 :Arrogant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1156331723 0 :tgwizard!n=tgwizard@c-e33fe155.178-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1156332800 0 :tgwizard!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1156332845 0 :tgwizard!n=tgwizard@c-e33fe155.178-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1156335331 0 :jix!i=jix@L627c.l.strato-dslnet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1156335809 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're best man now, dog... < 1156338331 0 :tgwizard!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1156340800 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1156342323 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> data Sentence = True | False | ForallSentences (Sentence -> Sentence) | ExistsSentence (Sentence -> Sentence) | Surely Sentence | Maybe Sentence | Not Sentence | Fails Sentence | Sentence `And` Sentence | Sentence `Or` Sentence | Sentence `Implies` Sentence < 1156342332 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/> // < 1156342386 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data TruthValue = SurelyTrue | Unknown | SurelyFAlse < 1156342394 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/FAlse/False/ < 1156342399 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh, eh? < 1156342458 0 :CakeProphet!n=CakeProp@h33.233.213.151.ip.alltel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156342500 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm... the joys of -not- going to school todat. < 1156342502 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :today < 1156342641 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lucky bastard. < 1156342667 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm... the joys of summer vacation... < 1156342840 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... bo I'm back in school... I just decided not to go today... because I'm a rebel like that. ;) < 1156343020 0 :jix!i=jix@L627c.l.strato-dslnet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1156343534 0 :RodgerTheGreat!n=Rodger@c-68-41-14-137.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156343546 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'morning. < 1156343569 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Morn'. < 1156343995 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Skipping school? < 1156344003 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1156344066 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um... < 1156344739 0 :tgwizard!n=tgwizard@c-e33fe155.178-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1156345867 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_, yeah < 1156346502 0 :RodgerTheGreat_!n=Rodger@c-68-41-14-137.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156346502 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1156346790 0 :RodgerTheGreat_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1156346852 0 :RodgerTheGreat!n=Rodger@c-68-41-14-137.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156347179 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1156347865 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm.. lisp looks pretty cool. < 1156347885 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could do all sorts of complex expression with just a few lines of code. < 1156347919 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. < 1156347941 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since everything works like a function. < 1156347968 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm... I wonder... can you put a cond inside of +, -, /, or *? < 1156347996 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cond works like any other lisp function right? It can be placed inside other functions I'm guessing. < 1156348116 0 :pgimeno!n=pgimeno@124.Red-80-59-211.staticIP.rima-tde.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156348119 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(+ 5 (cond ( (= meh bleh) 5) (else x) ) ) < 1156348125 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would that work? < 1156348140 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes- I think conditionals just return a boolean. < 1156348148 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool. < 1156348203 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an interesting way to think about it... rather than the usual use-if-statements-to-assign-a-variable-then-add-the-variable-to-5 method of doing that. < 1156348218 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could put the if in the addition itself. < 1156348305 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah- I've used that trick to save a couple bytes writing programs on my calculator. < 1156348331 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x + (if x == 7 then 2 else 5) < 1156348380 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm... and then if you -needed- a variable... you could put a cond into a define statement. < 1156348388 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION likes how everything in lisp is interchangeable. < 1156348400 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's 4 billion different ways to do the same thing. < 1156348402 0 :kipple!n=kipple@203.80-202-102.nextgentel.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1156348435 0 :kipple_!n=kipple@203.80-202-102.nextgentel.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1156348496 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if 7 /= x then 5 else 2) + x < 1156348531 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What language is that? < 1156348555 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell. < 1156348725 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too bad Lisp doesn't have indexes.. < 1156348740 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could do some crazy stuff with indexes. < 1156348908 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_, what are the key differences between Lisp and Scheme? < 1156348916 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno. < 1156348965 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme has call-with-current-continuation and uses ? for predicates, and Lisp doesn't have call-with-current-continuation and uses p for predicated. < 1156349055 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1156349058 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1156349063 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WOw... I didn't understand any of that. < 1156349073 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1156349162 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yaaaay not logging off! < 1156349167 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yaaay company bandwidth! < 1156349181 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll never use call-with-current-continuation, and the other difference doesn't matter. < 1156349200 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno the other differences. < 1156349429 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm... wow... < 1156349438 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I -just- figured out how a while loop works... < 1156349451 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it seems so obvious now. < 1156349468 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1156349469 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least... I know how you would define a while-looping function in Lisp. < 1156349534 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what's one look like in Lisp? < 1156349555 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not especially different from in Haskell. < 1156349563 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh dear... I temporarily forgot how the define function works for defining functions.... I forgot where the ()'s go. < 1156349615 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's bad... < 1156349943 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(define (while meh statement) (cond (meh (while meh statement))) Although I have a feeling I messed up horribly somewhere. < 1156349984 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has only a days worth of reading-one-book-but-never-actually-using-Lisp < 1156350037 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's basically a recursive function.. < 1156350044 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a conditional in it. < 1156350055 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :factorial 0 = 1 < 1156350061 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if conditional is true, then repeat" < 1156350063 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :factorial x = x * factorial (x-1) < 1156350141 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION now sees why Lisp is so lovable. < 1156350228 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The while function calls itself if the "meh" conditional is true... yaaaay figuring-shit-like-this-out. < 1156350242 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recursiveness = magical. < 1156350301 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while p f x | p x = while p f (f x) < 1156350313 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We kind of program in the reverse order of what the computer does... in a way. < 1156350313 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while p f x | otherwise = x < 1156350349 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We work on the outside layer of the program... and the computer starts at the bottom and works its way up... while we start from the top and work our way down. < 1156350627 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still haven't figured out iterators though. < 1156350638 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... not iterators... but for rather < 1156350652 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get for... or at least the way Python's for works. < 1156350897 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1156351172 0 :CakeProphet!n=CakeProp@h33.233.213.151.ip.alltel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156351214 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone recommend any good Lisp compilers? (or interpreters.. I can't remember which one it is.) < 1156351236 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, elisp? :P < 1156351266 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1156351278 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: you mean you don't know what Python's for does, or you don't know how to do it in Lisp? < 1156351286 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's always scheme. < 1156351320 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both.... although I vaguely know that Python's for involves the __iter__ attribute of certain datatypes... < 1156351340 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know the specific functioning... at a low level. < 1156351475 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Link to a decent compilter/interpreter? < 1156351882 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm.. if Malbolge wanted to be more impossible to code... it could dynammically encrypt every line after you type it. < 1156351891 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Move down a line... and the line above becomes illegible. < 1156351895 0 :RodgerTheGreat!n=Rodger@204.39.15.221 JOIN :#esoteric < 1156351906 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm.. if Malbolge wanted to be more impossible to code... it could dynammically encrypt every line after you type it. < 1156351909 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Move down a line... and the line above becomes illegible. < 1156351916 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(repeated that, for RodgerTheGreats pleasure) < 1156352059 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION feels pleasure < 1156352332 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat, Can you link me to a Lisp compiler? Or is it interpreter? < 1156352356 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm... I can look for one. what OS do you use again? < 1156352429 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know of one for PalmOS offhand, but I can probably find you a good one for OSX/Linux/Windows < 1156352509 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XP < 1156352518 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.gnu.org/software/scheme/ < 1156352529 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION winces, and then begins a search < 1156352531 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn. That's what I get for making up URLs. < 1156352536 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :404 < 1156352539 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :l < 1156352562 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/ < 1156352576 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yes- scheme. < 1156352591 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scheme is a variant of LISP that's nearly identical < 1156352615 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Note that you cannot build a working system from the source unless you have a working MIT/GNU Scheme compiler to do the compilation." hahahah < 1156352622 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recursive dependencies are good for you. < 1156352626 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1156352635 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION 's opinion is that that's only excusable for C :P < 1156352648 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And only for C because you need to have /some/ base. < 1156352707 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ufasoft.com/lisp/ <- might work < 1156352731 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has an IDE < 1156352795 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1156352801 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't find anything on the page. < 1156352850 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmmm. No, there are a good many differences. < 1156352871 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme's most popular interpreter is Guile, and Lisp's most common interpreter is clisp. < 1156352884 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Lisp/Common Lisp/ < 1156352894 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other good ones for Common Lisp are SBCL and CMUCL. < 1156352904 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme sounds okay.. although it might be more limited. < 1156352928 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is more limited, and there are some nasty differences between the two. < 1156352939 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Little nitpicky ones, I mean. < 1156352975 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I haven't deeply explored scheme, but my LISP code ran fine in a scheme interpreter. < 1156352995 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also Scheme abstracts a bit more. Common Lisp makes a distinction between symbols and functions (defun and defparameter) while Scheme makes no distinction (define), there's scoping rules, and other such things. Depends on what you want to do. < 1156353024 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to do multimedia-ish things, Common Lisp is your best bet. But if you want to build compilers/interpreters, either is fair game. < 1156353056 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1156353074 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only because Common Lisp has more libraries now. < 1156353100 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, Common Lisp's standard is like insane-huge (bigger than C++, IIRC) and because of the hugeness it seems in constant flux. < 1156353167 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm < 1156353181 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why distinguish between functions and symbols? < 1156353190 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Between what and what? < 1156353197 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean between functions and what? < 1156353202 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :symbols.. < 1156353210 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razor-X: ... C++'s standard library is not particularly "insane-huge" < 1156353223 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-W: Isn't the standard like 900 pages+? < 1156353226 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A symbol is a lisp datatype. < 1156353232 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION points Razor-X at Java. < 1156353235 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functions and types? < 1156353237 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION kind of likes how scheme doesn't distinguish between functions and symbols. < 1156353242 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"insane-huge" is *java's* standard library (API). < 1156353249 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How big is Java? :P < 1156353254 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BIG < 1156353269 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because Sun has absolute constrol over it, they have no reason not to just add, add, add. < 1156353270 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so they do. < 1156353274 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/ < 1156353281 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A wiki for code libraries would be neato. < 1156353292 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahahah, "org.omg" XD < 1156353295 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll be reading that to take an AP test on my own this year, you know -_-''. < 1156353299 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's great when you find what you need, but finding what you want can be a challenge... < 1156353314 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A collaborative compilation of a crapload of modules. < 1156353317 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The AP CS is not that bad at all, actually. < 1156353322 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I took it this last year. < 1156353329 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looked really easy. < 1156353339 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and I didn't take the class) < 1156353349 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor, I would assume, have you. < 1156353354 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew nothing about Java and got a 60% on a practice test, getting my scope rules wrong and some Java-specific stuff wrong. < 1156353392 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And because I haven't done OOP in ages. < 1156353459 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I took a 5 day class as an intro to java, and then worked with it as my main language for a couple of months. < 1156353480 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much everything syntax-wise on the essays you can figure out from the example code. < 1156354061 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1156354103 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you'll have any trouble with it. < 1156354104 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java = pansy language < 1156354110 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:/ < 1156354112 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1156354145 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Be a *real* man, manage your own bits and busses! < 1156354148 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oooh, pointers scare me, I don't want to think about the fact that there's memory on my system *sobbles*" < 1156354169 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eew, pointers. < 1156354175 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean yum, pointers. < 1156354175 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-W: Lots of languages don't deal with pointers. I don't think that's as much the issue. < 1156354197 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't even know what a pointer does... cause he's never used one. < 1156354202 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I LOVE Object Oriented programming to the degree that the (totally ridiculous) code 'public static void main' makes me happy 8-D" < 1156354237 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm.. OO can get a bit tedious... < 1156354243 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too many "selfs" everywhere < 1156354245 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C# can work with pointers if you want, but can Java? < 1156354250 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1156354255 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ouch. < 1156354259 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not at *all*? < 1156354263 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointers are useless < 1156354263 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1156354279 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pointers are not an absolute necessity, but when they help, they /really help/. < 1156354296 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The inverse is true as well ;) ) < 1156354298 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would make more sense to me that the language would just assume all variables that aren't specified otherwise are within the class namespace... rather than doing "self.variable" over and over. < 1156354304 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointers are useless in a language with implicit references < 1156354318 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1156354320 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: doesn't Java do that? < 1156354330 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrugs* I dunno.. I was referring to Python. < 1156354330 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why C didn't use implicit references. < 1156354341 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ruby does that. < 1156354343 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razor-X: Because C predates the concept. < 1156354344 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: would Haskell be one of those implicit reference languages? < 1156354350 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-W: wrong < 1156354351 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-W: Really? < 1156354357 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-W: ALGOL had it, IIRC. < 1156354360 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-W: Lisp predates C < 1156354364 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I should say, it predates the concept in that form of language. < 1156354369 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp too, yeah. < 1156354377 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: Haskell is a special case entirely < 1156354379 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, compiled, sits-atop-the-asm languages. < 1156354382 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: it doesn't really have variables at all < 1156354387 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is like a very high-level ASM *shrugs* < 1156354389 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-W: Lisp was always compiled < 1156354397 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, practically always < 1156354398 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp was compiled before C came along. < 1156354411 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp != a very high-level ASM < 1156354425 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp does not resemble the underlying architecture. < 1156354427 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C does. < 1156354432 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are no pointers in ASM. < 1156354439 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp and ASM are high-level versions of each other. < 1156354439 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razor-X: there sort of are. < 1156354446 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razor-X: the different addressing modes < 1156354450 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razor-X: There are, just without C's syntactic sugar. < 1156354451 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh..... < 1156354453 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razor-X: how do you write into memory, then, eh? < 1156354458 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: MOV ? < 1156354467 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's its second argument? < 1156354478 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. I guess you'd call that a pointer. < 1156354496 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an address *shrugs* < 1156354501 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A pointer is just a slight abstraction of an address. < 1156354507 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(VERY slight) < 1156354508 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an address < 1156354522 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assembly and forth are the only lanugages i'm aware of that use actual addresses to do stuff < 1156354525 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They don't have to be slight. < 1156354537 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forth :P < 1156354557 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The language that went nowhere fast. < 1156354570 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, people still use it for some things < 1156354574 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_O < 1156354589 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can you retire ALGOL and keep Forth? Sheer madness. < 1156354612 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forth is pretty much the best language for extremely tiny architectures < 1156354637 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like BF? < 1156354645 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1156354648 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1156354658 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forth isn't much better than ASM though. < 1156354675 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razor-X: it is. < 1156354697 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razor-X: it's like Lisp. It's what you make it to be < 1156354704 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's arbitrarily extendable < 1156354733 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :import foobar < 1156354743 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main() = interpret("...") < 1156354812 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forth is perhaps the most esoteric of mainstream languages < 1156354818 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only reason Lisp is "extendible" is because all of its syntax is the same... it's really just giving you an illusionary effect of adding to the language. < 1156354848 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: eh? < 1156354858 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I wanted... I could add to Python by defining a bunch of functions.... same thing as using define in Lisp. < 1156354859 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: define "illusionary" < 1156354864 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: no, you couldn't. < 1156354875 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: go ahead, add do...while loops to Python < 1156354879 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Oh? I didn't know. < 1156354883 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... all functions add to the language... but Lisp just seems to... add onto the syntax itself because the syntax is uniform. < 1156354908 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: add do...while loops to Python using any syntax. < 1156354911 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Make an ``if'' for me in Python. < 1156354930 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It already has an if... that's pointless. < 1156354946 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't have a do..while < 1156354954 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't have a goto either < 1156354957 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try those < 1156354958 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there y'are. < 1156354961 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, try goto. < 1156354972 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno enough about Python to do that. < 1156354974 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1156355004 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a do..while? < 1156355027 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you think a do..while is? < 1156355032 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.... < 1156355034 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In English. < 1156355043 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do something while something is something? < 1156355048 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes! < 1156355055 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the same thing as a... while loop. < 1156355062 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1156355067 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only, the condition is checked *after* the loop. < 1156355068 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The English definition is. < 1156355078 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english sucks!! < 1156355091 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh... that'd be even easier than making while. < 1156355092 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament.history[0].truth = 5; < 1156355104 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: okay, so make it! < 1156355104 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why it's not a while..do loop, but a do..while loop. < 1156355113 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: with functions, or with whatever you want < 1156355123 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Python < 1156355135 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then in Glass. < 1156355137 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1156355157 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should add one thing to Glass then fork it and call it Rlass. Just for the effect. < 1156355177 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could do the same, and call it llass < 1156355177 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...what's the effect of "Rlass" < 1156355180 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree with your philisophy, GregorR-W!!!11!!!! < 1156355185 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :def dowhile(cond, equal, action): < 1156355187 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if cond == equal: < 1156355188 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : dowhile(cond, equal, action) < 1156355189 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*philosophy < 1156355200 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razor-X: SOFTWARE IS /MEANT/ TO BE FREE YOU XEMACS USING SCUMPILE < 1156355202 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1156355205 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: that never actually does the 'action' < 1156355213 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-W: I don't use XEmacs. < 1156355220 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh... yeah forgot about that. < 1156355221 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razor-X: That was called a joke. < 1156355225 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know :P < 1156355248 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm... okay I see what you mean. < 1156355266 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Please. Read SICP :\ < 1156355271 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1156355275 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because everything is the same syntax... it's capable of adding onto itself in ways other languages can't. < 1156355282 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I've been reading it. < 1156355285 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly. < 1156355286 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good! < 1156355301 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(eat (and milk cookies)) < 1156355307 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds cool. < 1156355312 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eat and milk cookies. < 1156355314 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not because everything is the same syntax, but because you can change the language in the language. < 1156355316 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does this work? http://pastebin.ca/146454 < 1156355337 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not... a valid reason. < 1156355338 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: not really < 1156355342 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: Akk, recursion X_X < 1156355351 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It can add to itself, because you can change the language in the language" < 1156355362 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: 'act' doesn't do anything, act is already evaluated < 1156355377 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bweh. < 1156355385 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :act(), then. < 1156355390 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works < 1156355416 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything is a function.... if, while, everything.... because everything is a function, creating more functions adds to the everything... thus you've extended the language. < 1156355431 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also.. having everything as functions allows for more expressive statements than other languages. < 1156355433 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Not everything is a function in lisp. < 1156355435 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Scheme has macros, right? < 1156355443 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Many many things aren't functions. < 1156355448 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: do..while loops aren't functions. < 1156355450 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razor-X: yes. < 1156355457 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, Every -statement- is a function... < 1156355458 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: 's what I thought. < 1156355466 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: no, that's wrong < 1156355469 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You haven't seen *anything* until you've seen macros. < 1156355472 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: every statement is _not_ a function :) < 1156355540 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(define x 2) is a function.... (cond (= x 2) (eat (and cookies milk) is a function... each () takes parameters and runs them through a bit of code to return a value... which is the definition of a function. < 1156355676 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(func parameter (func parameter parameter)) it's a function/ < 1156355689 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: actually, of those things, only the last one is a function < 1156355698 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or.. at least it operates like functions < 1156355705 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it doesn't. < 1156355708 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1156355721 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please -explain- instead of just saying "no it doesn't" < 1156355772 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a function is an object that, when given a bunch of values, produces another value. < 1156355797 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or, possibly, fails to return) < 1156355835 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(define x 2) doesn't produce any value. < 1156355855 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead it binds x to 2, which is not something functions do. < 1156355884 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(define x 2) is not a function for the same reason that "x = 2" is not a function in Python. < 1156355893 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay... define is a special form... it provides a means to define the rest of the everything... which is functions :D < 1156355907 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, define is a special form < 1156355915 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just as "def" is a special form in Python < 1156355924 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, it's not the only special form < 1156355935 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, 'if' is also a special form (just as in Python) < 1156355952 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 'cond' is a special form < 1156355955 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm... I thought if was a function? < 1156355982 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't be, and i'm pretty sure SICP covers why. < 1156356018 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It -does- take input and return a value however. < 1156356040 0 :kipple_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't (define x 2) return 2? < 1156356057 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pah, who needs define? < 1156356060 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kipple_: i don't think it ought to. < 1156356075 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: consider the Python code: < 1156356081 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :def if(cond, a,b): < 1156356082 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(+ 5 (if (eat(and cookies milk)) 3 4) ) < 1156356091 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if cond: < 1156356094 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : a < 1156356096 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : else: < 1156356097 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : b < 1156356101 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would that work? no :) < 1156356147 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1156356182 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why wouldn't it? < 1156356201 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, suppose foo() prints 'hello' and bar() prints world() < 1156356206 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean prints "world" :) < 1156356215 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods.\ < 1156356238 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then if (1==1, foo(), bar()) would print 'helloworld' BEFORE the function would even start evaluating! < 1156356292 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1156356295 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1156356311 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd evaluate from the inside out? < 1156356323 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about this: if(1==1, foo, bar)()? < 1156356326 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: because python would evaluate the arguments before evaluating the function. < 1156356345 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That works, if I'm not mistaken... < 1156356350 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: that works < 1156356361 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :???? < 1156356386 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo(bar()) calls bar, then calls foo with the result. < 1156356475 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's clearly not a substitute for being able to write < 1156356492 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if(1==2, print "pigs can fly", return 42) < 1156356503 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck doing that :) < 1156356509 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still not sure how this ties into if not operating like a function.. < 1156356520 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.ca/146481 < Gregor's idle musings on an interpreted programming language. < 1156356590 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: 'if' only evaluates one of its arguments, instead of evaluating both < 1156356606 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...why does that matter? < 1156356640 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because all arguments to functions are evaluated before calling the function, at least in Scheme and in Python. < 1156356644 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if cannot be a function. < 1156356648 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least in Scheme and in Python. < 1156356671 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it can be in languages with wildly different semantics) < 1156356676 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It returns results... that's really all you need to act like a function... it operates just like a function when you actually use it. < 1156356697 0 :kipple_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you guys just operate on different definitions of what a function is < 1156356706 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much. < 1156356746 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kipple_: well, he only knows Python < 1156356756 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Python has call-by-value semantics < 1156356797 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet.Function = put(crap_in), get(crap_out) < 1156356813 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that one language that had call-by-name? :) < 1156356872 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, ALGOL < 1156356883 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah... I'm sort of thinking in terms of Python... since I'm predominantly more accustomed to it... I consider every S-expression in lisp to return some kind of value to be used in the expression that contains it. < 1156356886 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, maybe the if function would take a condition and two tuples, and each tuple would contain a function and its arguments... eh. < 1156356910 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: what if you want to do < 1156356916 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if(1==2, print "pigs can fly", return 42) < 1156356929 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: 'return 42' certainly can't be a function < 1156356931 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python would actually give youy a sybtax error for that one. < 1156356946 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't do stuff like "print "pigs can fly"" as the parameter to a function. < 1156356954 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: exactly. < 1156356959 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: that's why you can't make if a function :) < 1156356962 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print("pigs can fly") < 1156356969 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right? < 1156356978 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: print is not a function in python < 1156356979 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... that might work. < 1156356984 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: it's a statement < 1156356992 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's silly. < 1156356993 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Special syntax? < 1156356997 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your snake-language is really silly. < 1156357005 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's silly. < 1156357007 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: nah, not really < 1156357009 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah print is a special syntax < 1156357013 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it's mostly for debugging purposes anyway < 1156357018 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's PERFECT... but yeah, it's silly. < 1156357023 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"print" being syntax sounds rather BASIC-y. < 1156357031 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i.e. print is not something you'd use in real code < 1156357042 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: so might as well make it convenient :) < 1156357062 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHP's "echo" was probably special syntax, too, though. < 1156357064 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would you use in real code? < 1156357100 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: probably some_file.write(stuff) < 1156357110 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while some_file could be sys.stdout by default < 1156357116 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mrph. < 1156357124 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :def out(stuff): < 1156357128 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : print stuff < 1156357154 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print adds some formatting for 'easy' printing < 1156357161 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is great for debugging, not so great otherwise < 1156357183 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah... I mainly use print for debugging... and when I need to -see- what's happening. < 1156357185 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e print 'a','b' prints "a b\n" < 1156357216 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My IRC bot prints pretty much everything is receives from the connection... just so I know how to deal with crap. < 1156357225 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm not working in the dark. < 1156357594 0 :smokecfh!n=user@53549344.cable.casema.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1156357744 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much everything? < 1156357754 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not just plain everything? < 1156357769 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because in normal conversation not everything is said literally :D < 1156357783 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It -does- print everything... usually in a nice perty formatted form. < 1156357808 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normal conversation? in this channel? < 1156357822 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ridiculous. < 1156357824 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a prospect. < 1156357825 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Face it. We're normal. < 1156357838 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: that makes me worried < 1156357839 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If by channel you mean an IRC channel... then yes. < 1156357854 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait.. < 1156357856 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1156357859 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...that didn't make any sense. < 1156357865 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1156357868 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none at all! < 1156357874 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ an / / < 1156357878 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it makes sense. < 1156357900 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: You just changed it to: < 1156357905 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet> If by channel you meanIRC channel... then yes. < 1156357920 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um... < 1156357929 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a space between the last two slashes. < 1156357934 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH < 1156357937 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there is XD < 1156357939 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<-- can't read < 1156357945 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor is a terrible interpreter. < 1156357963 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1156357970 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python doesn't like it when I indent this thing. < 1156357973 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better known as Gregor the Terrible < 1156357978 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print "Hello, world!" < 1156357980 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : print "Hello, world!" < 1156357984 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: Python hates you. < 1156357987 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first is okay, the second is not. < 1156358016 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: that is correct. < 1156358020 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you want to... ident it? < 1156358024 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indent < 1156358029 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? < 1156358049 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python does special stuff with indenting... < 1156358065 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: because it's incorrect syntax. < 1156358087 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell doesn't care about indentation as much as Python does... < 1156358098 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: that's why Haskell is a different language! < 1156358102 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That means Python's better than Haskell, right? < 1156358107 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Tons. < 1156358159 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help < 1156358163 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blocks are indents in Python. < 1156358163 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon < 1156358165 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl < 1156358180 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help trigger < 1156358183 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To use an interpreter: Note: can be the actual program, an http:// URL, or a file:// URL which refers to my pseudofilesystem. < 1156358187 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So indenting that second line is saying that it's in a block that doesn't exist. < 1156358338 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So does Python have for-loops? < 1156358370 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: not really < 1156358377 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: it has for-each loops which are called 'for' < 1156358386 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, perfect. < 1156358399 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not many languages care about indentation as much as Python. < 1156358400 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for x in blah: < 1156358402 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what's the list of everything from 1 to 100? < 1156358403 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FORTRAN does, in a way. < 1156358415 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :range(1, 1000) < 1156358416 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: range(1,101) < 1156358420 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh... yeah < 1156358441 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: everything is python is very heavily biased towards counting from 0 < 1156358457 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: so range(100) gives you the list from 0 to 99 < 1156358461 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a SRFI (or a SRFI proposal, or just crazy-talk) for indentation-sensitive Scheme, too. < 1156358472 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: sounds like crazy-talk < 1156358475 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1156358482 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme would be annoying with forced identition. < 1156358502 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So would Python. < 1156358579 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow I don't think the word "would" is really appropriate there. < 1156358599 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So Python doesn't have infinite lists, eh? < 1156358614 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: not _really_ < 1156358624 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinite arrays? :-) < 1156358626 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_: it has generators which are pretty much that < 1156358660 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Python... lists are arrays < 1156358670 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And vice versa? < 1156358671 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arrays are arrays that function like C arrays < 1156358677 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1156358686 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how do I make a generator? < 1156358688 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure what you use for lists... I guess tuples or something. < 1156358699 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm... dunno much about generators. < 1156358727 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I can do without them. < 1156358812 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact.. I kinda forgot what a generator does. < 1156358835 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like an infinite list to me. < 1156358882 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I see that this Python thingamahoochie doesn't like tail recursion. < 1156358961 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1156358986 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where am I supposed to get my daily fix of tail recursion? < 1156359050 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Scheme. < 1156359059 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eew. < 1156359076 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where the Spec promises you proper tail recursion. < 1156359924 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, Python doesn < 1156359932 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'t like recursive constants either? < 1156359980 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope. < 1156359990 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop fucking snakes. < 1156360012 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't worry, I'm not putting them on planes. < 1156360180 0 :macgeek-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :macgeek < 1156360918 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MOTHAFUCKIN SNAKES ON A MOTHAFUCIN PLANE < 1156360919 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean hi. < 1156361332 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1156361624 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.ca/146582 ... comments? < 1156361646 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Perhaps not the greatest example for comments ^^ < 1156361648 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1156362053 0 :macgeek!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :macgeek- < 1156365384 0 :RodgerTheGreat!n=Rodger@c-68-41-14-137.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156365572 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello again. < 1156365590 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who here's coding something for the competition? < 1156365637 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1156365647 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-W, is that Perl? < 1156365716 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh.. C < 1156365800 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope_, Hmmm.... how's Python coming? < 1156365903 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python? < 1156365923 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, that was, like, ages ago... < 1156365940 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Over an hour and a half. < 1156365942 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: which competition? < 1156365957 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there more than one? < 1156365962 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the esoteric programming competition. < 1156365981 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/2006_Esolang_Contest < 1156366278 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: how about mentionin that the entries have to be free software? < 1156366320 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it mentions that under "Licensing" < 1156366332 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: no it doesn't actually < 1156366456 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: it just talks about FSF approved licenses < 1156366510 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, what would you define as "free software"? Public domain? < 1156366532 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html < 1156366572 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: maybe this is nitpicking but isn't that quite on-topic when we talk about esoteric languages ;) < 1156366665 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose- I didn't really come up with the license regulations, though. If you ask me, people should just make their code public domain- I don't see all this concern with licenses. If you want to give stuff away, give it away. < 1156366694 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only takes two words to explain the rights you want to give. < 1156366699 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"public domain" < 1156366705 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: s/FSF approved license/FSF approved free software license/ < 1156366737 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: public domain afaik does not exist in all countries in the same way it exists in US < 1156368901 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :public, mublic < 1156369284 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Private domain! < 1156369333 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's called the "my encrypted harddrive, bitch" license. < 1156370140 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: It is neither C nor Perl. < 1156370146 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used C syntax highlighting just to do something. < 1156370152 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the language I'm writing in my head. < 1156370168 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks kind of Pythonis < 1156370170 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :h < 1156370176 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no, public domain does /NOT/ explain the rights. < 1156370185 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, I would really prefer that nobody submit under public domain. < 1156370187 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Public domain == bad. < 1156370212 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1156370237 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A) You can't legally declare something to be public domain without paperwork, despite the common misconception. < 1156370256 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B) Despite all logic, public domain implies a warrantee /which you cannot by any means remove/. < 1156370296 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't it spelled "warranty"? < 1156370325 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I always misspell that for some reason >_< < 1156370343 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no such thing as a guaranty... < 1156370359 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what kind of warranty is it? < 1156370369 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Liability against damages. < 1156370377 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(At least in the US) < 1156370388 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, mind you, it's hard to define "damages" in terms of software. < 1156370392 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it may be inert. < 1156370394 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So writing a public domain computer virus would be a bad idea? < 1156370420 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably, if you write a computer virus, you are not licensing it to its users, so it falls under the same warranty. < 1156370440 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only with a license can you revoke that warranty (look at every software license ever) < 1156370466 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I guess you can't get away with a plain unlicensed virus or anything either. < 1156370486 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So who can be liable for these damages? < 1156370519 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a virus, I don't know, but I believe for software the original writer and the distributor (if anybody can verify this, thanks) < 1156370525 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if the virus was written by another virus, which was in turn written by another virus, which came about accidentally? < 1156370540 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IANAL. < 1156370657 0 :[1]kipple!n=kipple@203.80-202-102.nextgentel.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1156370755 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1156370756 0 :Anders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1156370756 0 :[1]kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :kipple < 1156370767 0 :Anders!i=anders@unaffiliated/anders1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1156372465 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somebody give me a fairly simple example program to write in my in-progress non-esoteric language ... < 1156373719 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = getContents >>= putStr < 1156373742 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people call that 'cat' < 1156373747 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's TOO trivial. < 1156373749 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, you're making a language? < 1156373755 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trying to. < 1156373765 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe a factorial program. < 1156373768 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I started having ideas, trying to formalize them into something useful. < 1156373796 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = do x <- readLine; print (product [1..x]) < 1156373826 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :== factorial :P < 1156373837 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have stdlib defined yet, so I'll just look at the second part. < 1156373909 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too easy: < 1156373911 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :factorial = (n){ < 1156373912 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : res = 1; < 1156373914 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : while({n > 0}, { < 1156373916 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : res *= n; < 1156373917 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : n -= 1; < 1156373919 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : }); < 1156373920 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : return(res); < 1156373922 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :}; < 1156373936 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's... a bit longer than ihope's version < 1156373960 0 :smokecfh!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1156373963 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's ... not pseudocode. < 1156373996 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope's is not either < 1156374009 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that some actual language >_O < 1156374016 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell. < 1156374024 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1156374038 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if we assume that the "factorial" function is built in, we get: < 1156374055 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x = (something to get the input); println(factorial(x)); < 1156374077 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your language seems kinda boring. < 1156374088 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you haven't seen any of it yet. < 1156374093 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it have in the way of types? < 1156374101 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's dynamically typed, so it only has four "types" < 1156374116 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Numerical scalar, string scalar, objects and functions. < 1156374122 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Objects == sets as well. < 1156374128 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And functions == types as well. < 1156374129 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is while a function up there? < 1156374132 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1156374137 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is return one? < 1156374139 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1156374155 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops, time to abruptly... go. < 1156374158 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though both would have to be internally defined since they're sort of self-reliant. < 1156374167 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could override them if you were an idiot though ^^ < 1156374214 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need an example that can show off its cool OO/functional hybrid abilities ... < 1156374224 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :While can be defined recursively. < 1156374230 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or with gotos. < 1156374352 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, you could make a recursive while, that's true < 1156374364 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no intent on goto right now, it'd be pretty nasty with how it works ... < 1156374441 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while = (x of function, y of function) { if(x, { y(); while(x, y); }); }; < 1156374449 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1156374453 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while = (x of function, y of function) { if(x(), { y(); while(x, y); }); }; < 1156374567 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for a purely functional approach, a function can also be defined by a single expression (with no ;) < 1156374568 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :No route to host < 1156374601 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That being said, this is not intended to be a purely functional language) < 1156375650 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION had a very, very weird idea. . . < 1156375660 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is terrified. < 1156375667 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As you should be. < 1156375713 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know the notation of, say "f(x)=x^2" used in mathematics? I was just thinking. . . What if I could manage to prove that Turing complete? < 1156375745 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you would have lambda calculus? < 1156375769 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funny. . . I thought Lambda Calculus used slightly different notation. . . < 1156375785 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. . . Oh, you're right. That would be lambda calc, wouldn't it? < 1156375794 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fundamental idea is the same, some function = expression < 1156375814 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry ;) < 1156375828 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man difference being that I'd be using full, proper mathematical notation, instead of coming up with a new notation. < 1156375859 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Man/Main/ < 1156376049 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, array = (x...) { x }; < 1156376053 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a bit silly. < 1156376059 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of ? m n f x. m f (n f x), I could just do add(x,y)=x+y < 1156376081 0 :macgeek-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you guys think of this idea? http://farhnware.homelinux.com/misc/plain.txt < 1156376090 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add = (x of float, y of float) { x + y }; < 1156376126 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pure math, and therefore untyped. < 1156376162 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :macgeek-: What's the difference between ? and )? < 1156376174 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well, the "of's" are optional. add = (x, y) { x + y; < 1156376180 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(/me's mind is still on his new lang :P ) < 1156376306 0 :macgeek-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-W: ? outputs as a character, ) outputs the value; "x" versus "120" < 1156376323 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1156376344 0 :macgeek-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was able to create Hello World, Cat, and 99 Bottles of Beer < 1156376434 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheh < 1156376442 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, World! or Hello? World? ;) < 1156376515 0 :macgeek-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1156376560 0 :macgeek-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to remember a language similar to Plain, but I couldn't find it on esolangs.org/wiki < 1156376711 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PATH? < 1156376727 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge, to a lesser degree? < 1156376748 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf61f7.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156376779 0 :macgeek-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I'm not sure < 1156376796 0 :macgeek-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be thinking of a mix of languages < 1156376808 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm inclined to agree. < 1156376942 0 :Sph1nx!n=sphinx@89-178-30-83.broadband.corbina.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1156376989 0 :tgwizard!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1156377083 0 :CakeProphet!n=CakeProp@h184.251.213.151.ip.alltel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1156377287 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Behringer created a USB guitar... everyone laugh < 1156377422 0 :GregorR-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah? < 1156377568 0 :ivan`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a USB hard drive that's actually a 120V DC source < 1156377573 0 :ivan`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my friends buy new computers through me