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00:23:00 <CakeProphet> The symbol is the identation... and some people (like me) space out blocks with a lot of carriage returns.
00:23:18 <CakeProphet> I space out my code logically to make it readable.
00:26:46 <GregorR-W> Don't you see - exactly what the forced indentation was supposed to fix, it has caused, in a different form.
00:26:55 <pikhq> Some of us prefer [{""}].
00:27:52 <GregorR-W> It's supposed to enforce a sort of unified coding style, but because said coding style makes one part very fuzzy (ending multiple blocks), people do it different ways, causing a proliferation of different styles, which is exactly what they were trying to stop by doing it in the first place X_X
00:28:18 <CakeProphet> Seems to me it was used to limit the need to type a bunch of braces... to make the code easier to read... and to make it easier for the programmer.
00:29:05 <CakeProphet> Not sure it was for enforced code style... since technically I could call braces-to-end-keywords a coding style using your definition :D
00:29:49 <CakeProphet> They both serve the same function... they're just typed differently... like any other keyword.
00:30:35 <CakeProphet> For me anyways... I can usually tell when the code goes back a large number of blocks... since the length of the ident decreases a noticable amount.
00:31:01 <GregorR-W> If you have a while in a for in an if in a sub and you lose six spaces ...?
00:31:21 * CakeProphet scratches his head, "I could see how that'd be a problem..."
00:31:34 <pikhq> I prefer Tcl's braces, because it makes it easy to see how it will be parsed. . .
00:31:36 <CakeProphet> After a bunch of idents it can start to get confusing which block a paticular bit is in.
00:31:57 <GregorR-W> There ya go. That's literally the /only/ problem I have with Python syntax.
00:32:01 <GregorR-W> It's infinitely cleaner than Perl.
00:32:23 <CakeProphet> Yeah... Perl doesn't design for readability... so it's sort of expect anyways. ^_^
00:32:35 <CakeProphet> Perl was designed to... uh... actually be instable...
00:32:41 <pikhq> Inside of [], and the block is replaced with the commands within. Inside of {}, and it's used literally. Inside of "", and variables and [] blocks are parsed.
00:34:04 <pikhq> [this_is_a_command] {This is a literal string} "$this is a string with variables and [commands] being parsed."
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00:34:51 <pikhq> this [stuff {allows you to do} "crazy [stuff] that you can't {do in a single line} [of Python]."]
00:35:03 <GregorR-W> this_is_a_command; "This is a literal string". this ~ " is a string with variables and " ~ commands() ~ " being parsed."
00:35:16 <GregorR-W> pikhq: You just went from "had a point" to "ARGH MUST KILL" :P
00:35:30 <pikhq> Couldn't resist. Sorry.
00:45:51 <CakeProphet> "Using " + addition() + " to add" + variables + "to a string in " + " ".join(Python) + "can be kind of annoying."
00:46:26 <GregorR-W> I prefer using concatenation to putting variables in strings.
00:46:35 <GregorR-W> Even in languages that do interpolate, I usually use concatenation.
00:46:39 <CakeProphet> But I'd get tired of typing all of those damn parentheticals.
00:46:58 <CakeProphet> I think "blah" + variable is how you concatenate in Python...
00:47:45 <pikhq> You sure you want to do [lappend "This is a list" $which "is being concatenated using lappend."]?
00:48:45 <GregorR-W> pikhq: Just because your language provides no decent means of concatenation doesn't mean ours don't :P
00:48:53 <pikhq> There are no strings in Tcl. It's all a bunch of lists.
00:49:14 <CakeProphet> I mean... lists are great and all... but... uh... :D
00:50:35 <CakeProphet> I like the way Python slices stuff.... how do other languages slice?
00:51:58 <GregorR-W> somethingOfAnyArrayTypeIncludingStringsOfCourse[lbound..ubound]
00:52:55 <GregorR-W> OK ... that's sort of lame actually ...
00:53:16 <CakeProphet> Yeah... I have to think about how it's going to slice a while before I do it.
00:53:56 <CakeProphet> If that were a list.. with each word being a list item... it would have returned "wow this is"
00:55:28 <CakeProphet> Python slicing works like there's a bunch of little lines inbetween everything...
00:56:00 <CakeProphet> D apparently goes by the character number I guess.
00:56:37 <CakeProphet> Well... in Python... the index works just like slicing... so yeah... same here... just in different ways.
00:57:28 <CakeProphet> That's how Python slices.... the first little mark is 0... and then you count up...
00:57:45 <GregorR-W> Yeah, that'd be what we call the index :P
00:58:02 <CakeProphet> I thought it might be different with D or something.
00:58:20 <GregorR-W> "Oh wow this is a string"[3] == 'w'
00:58:27 <GregorR-W> "Oh wow this is a string"[3..4] == "w"
00:58:38 <GregorR-W> "Oh wow this is a string"[3..14] == "wow this is"
00:58:58 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... does D go before or after the index number?
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00:59:57 <GregorR-W> That is, it includes the first one and all elements up to but discluding the last one.
01:00:53 <CakeProphet> I don't feel like thinking... tell me how Python works.
01:00:58 <CakeProphet> >>> string = "oh wow this is totally a string omigod"
01:01:05 <CakeProphet> I typed that into IDLE... tell me how it slices...
01:01:38 <ivan`> spoooooon feeding session
01:02:12 <oerjanj> cakeprophet: let me get this straight, you like python syntax but not math?
01:02:36 <oerjanj> which makes me wonder what you think about haskell :-)
01:02:45 <CakeProphet> I also hate hitting the shift key... so any language I create myself will need absolutely no shift key unless you specifically want to capitalize something.
01:03:00 <ivan`> CakeProphet, try Whitespace
01:03:28 <CakeProphet> Nothing irks me more than all those shift-key stuffs like ^ & * and crap...
01:03:31 <GregorR-W> CakeProphet: Y'know, you could just depress the shift key without actually "hitting" it.
01:03:35 <oerjanj> alas nothing but letters is necessarily the same in all keyboard layouts
01:03:49 <GregorR-W> oerjanj: Even letters aren't necessarily the same :)
01:03:50 <ivan`> in python you do need : but it's mostly lowercase
01:04:15 <GregorR-W> CakeProphet: So, rather than +, you'll have ... "add" for addition? Or is numpad OK?
01:04:34 <CakeProphet> You need : and () for functions and {} for dictionaries (associative arrays) and [] for lists.
01:04:34 <oerjanj> at least lower case english letters still don't need shift on a norwegian keyboard
01:04:35 <GregorR-W> CakeProphet: Also, why is it that you're one of the very few people on this channel who capitalizes?
01:05:06 <CakeProphet> Eh.... I'm fine with shifting while typing... I just hate having to find all those damn symbols...
01:05:10 <oerjanj> [] needs Alt Gr on my keyboard
01:05:19 <CakeProphet> and I haven't gotten into the habit of using the numpad... so I use the + that's on the keyboard.
01:06:39 <oerjanj> the only bracketing that doesn't need shift on my keyboard is <>
01:07:23 <oerjanj> i suppose if you don't like to find symbols you don't like haskell syntax either
01:07:54 <CakeProphet> I like the concept of Perl.. if only it didn't have those damn sigils... >.<
01:08:02 <GregorR-W> oerjanj: Funny, those DO need shift on an American keyboard :P
01:08:17 <CakeProphet> Which... I'm sure after typing them long enough... they get pretty easy.
01:08:18 <GregorR-W> CakeProphet: ... those symbols ARE THE CONCEPT OF PERL
01:08:23 <oerjanj> actually > does but not < here, they're on the same key
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01:12:09 <CakeProphet> Any language that's easy to type.... I'll love...
01:12:31 <CakeProphet> Anyone know any good languages that are easy to type and require bare minimum is thought to execute :D
01:16:10 <oerjanj> um, the last point would seem to leave out most esoteric languages.
01:17:06 <CakeProphet> Oh no worries... I can handle complete nonsense with ease... by easy-to-type I basically just mean to shifts or out-of-reach keys.
01:17:43 <oerjanj> so using just alphabetic letters, if it is to be reasonably multinational...
01:19:56 <oerjanj> but there sure do seem to be a lot of letters in that
01:20:06 <CakeProphet> Well.. I'm using an american keyboard... so my shifts are different.
01:20:20 <oerjanj> i was just about to mention it
01:20:23 <GregorR-W> But there sure do seem to be a lot of letters in that.
01:20:45 <CakeProphet> All numbers... letters... and [ ] ; ' , . / \ - = and probably some other stuff... I can deal with () and {} and + and _...
01:21:25 <oerjanj> i suppose .gertrude would be nice, too
01:24:04 <oerjanj> incidentally, my last two languages have been attempts at combining readability with esotericness...
01:24:21 <oerjanj> seeing as most esolangs are highly encrypted
01:24:24 <CakeProphet> That's probably what I would do... if I could make languages.
01:26:09 <CakeProphet> lazy as in me-having-to-do-less-shit-to-get-something-to-happen-by-any-means-possible.... not any sort of code terminology you might know/
01:26:51 <oerjanj> ORK is the same, and Glass has the possibility
01:27:09 <CakeProphet> I just... looked at ORKs Hello World program...
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01:28:00 <CakeProphet> I'm getting butterflies just looking at the code..
01:29:51 <CakeProphet> It has the possibility of both surrealness... functionality... and ease of use... and it sounds cool to read.
01:32:26 <oerjanj> btw the reason i was mentioning COBOL was because i was thinking about making a language based on financial transactions
01:33:11 <oerjanj> basically the way to get an object in the language to perform an action is to pay it :-)
01:33:40 <oerjanj> and only the MAIN BANK object or something can print money...
01:34:20 <CakeProphet> I was thinking of a "who stole the cookies from the cookie jar"-based event-oriented programming language :D
01:34:35 <oerjanj> and naturally, for such a language a COBOL-inspired syntax would be appropriate
01:35:15 <CakeProphet> So the code would detect what triggered the event "stole" on the item "cookies" in the array/function/something "cookie jar"
01:35:20 <oerjanj> hm, would that be a detective story language?
01:35:48 <oerjanj> seems like it would need to be a logic language
01:36:29 <oerjanj> call it SHERLOCK :-) unless that is taken.. let me google
01:37:40 <oerjanj> seems to be just some application with that name, nothing to worry about
01:38:08 <oerjanj> or maybe some other detective name of your choice
01:38:39 <CakeProphet> Anything I make is going to be silly... detective-styled code is a huge turn-off to my idea :D
01:39:22 <CakeProphet> Well... I don't really want themes... themes kind of annoy me... except the cookie jar theme for some reason..
01:39:57 * oerjanj is all for a language based on self-contradiction
01:42:23 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... if I'm going for a language that actually -uses- an equal sign... I'd definetely mix it up.
01:42:32 <CakeProphet> So that the assigned value comes first... with the variable second.
01:43:50 * CakeProphet wonders if you could possibly create a language that functions on the concept of unassignment.
01:44:08 <CakeProphet> string = "the string" actually makes that value -not- that string... but for everything else it is true.
01:44:21 <CakeProphet> It'd take a while to get used to... but if it's possible to create... it would be interesting.
01:44:39 <oerjanj> even worse than my Reaper :-)
01:45:53 <oerjanj> it is based on replacement, a = b changes every reference to a into a reference to b
01:46:26 <oerjanj> i haven't yet got around to implementing it, alas
01:47:15 <oerjanj> it's a destruction-oriented language
01:47:18 <CakeProphet> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Reaper
01:48:15 <oerjanj> i noticed that Forte is somewhat similar, i am pondering a bit on implementing that...
01:48:35 <oerjanj> it is even weirder because there you replace _numbers_
01:48:59 <CakeProphet> Actually.. ORK is probably an excellent OOP
01:49:27 <CakeProphet> Unfortunately I'm noit very good with OO yet.
01:49:48 * oerjanj has a soft spot for functional languages
01:50:05 <oerjanj> but then i am a mathematician
01:50:26 <CakeProphet> I'm pretty much only capable of imperitive.
01:50:47 <CakeProphet> functions confuse and infuriate me... but only when I'm defining them myself... I can -use- them fine :D
01:51:51 <CakeProphet> Imperitive just makes sense naturally to me *nodnods*
01:54:44 <oerjanj> i suppose it is a shorter translation to what the computer actually does, sort of
01:55:46 <CakeProphet> I only create functions for minor stuff... like quick and commonly-used string manipulations or stuff like that...
01:56:00 <CakeProphet> shortcuts... but the structure (if you want to call it that) is essentially imperitive.
01:58:15 <oerjanj> experimenting with the edit keys can be dangerous
01:59:26 <oerjanj> even in haskell, the top level of a program is essentially imperative
02:01:04 <oerjanj> i understand functional structure has less problems when doing things concurrently
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02:05:53 <Spion> Please type the prime numbers up to 100 and press enter?
02:07:01 <Mrak> Please, whatever
02:07:15 <Spion> Due to IRP's nature, any quine is potentially a severe DDOS worm.
02:07:31 <oerjanj> 2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61 67 71 73 79 83 89 97
02:10:21 <oerjanj> (some noise must be expected in IRP transmission)
02:10:33 <Spion> i see, you had to make things more interesting
02:10:52 * CakeProphet begins making a prime number program just for the hell of it.
02:12:43 <CakeProphet> So... the most clunky way I can think to make a prime number program... is just to divide each and every number in a range of numbers by a shitload of numbers...
02:13:00 <Mrak> who needs a prime number program anyway? :))
02:13:20 <oerjanj> you've not heard of Eratosthenes's sieve?
02:13:41 <oerjanj> it is enough to divide by smaller primes
02:15:31 <Spion> you can go up to sqrt(num)+1 then
02:16:08 <CakeProphet> So the shitload of numbers... would be the sqrt of the number + 1?
02:17:44 <randomness> Well, its Wednesday and Spion is on IRC.
02:17:52 <Spion> Eratosthenes has another approach: start with 1, X it, then go to 2, <prime> it, and X all multiples of 2
02:18:03 <Spion> then go to 3, <prime> it, X all multiples of 3
02:18:25 <Spion> the higher you go, the more primes left in
02:18:43 <Spion> cool way to do it would be a linked list
02:18:59 <Spion> faster would be an array
02:23:33 <CakeProphet> Eh... Python doesn't use arrays unless you specifically need them...
02:24:25 * oerjanj made his Haskell version work
02:24:27 <Spion> Python... ermm su..c.. ceeds in bringing the worse of me
02:28:12 <oerjanj> primes = sieve [2..] where sieve (n:rest) = n:sieve (filter (\r -> r `mod` n /= 0) rest)
02:28:26 <CakeProphet> Ugh... that looks way too hard to touch to write... so...
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02:32:12 <CakeProphet> print num, 'equals', numanuma, '*', num/numanuma
02:33:50 <oerjanj> isn't that range(2,num * num) a bit excessive?
02:34:27 <oerjanj> it should be square root, not square
02:36:29 <ivan`> learn python, then program in python
02:36:53 <oerjanj> to avoid square roots, you could add a test (numanuma * numanuma <= num, although that would be a bit ineffective...
02:37:04 <CakeProphet> Oh ho... now don't get all mean-grumpy-pants-coder on me... I -am- learning...
02:37:44 <ivan`> http://www.google.com/search?q=python+module+reference+sqrt
02:38:44 <ivan`> sqrt isn't a builtin :)
02:39:36 <ivan`> those pythonistas wanted to make it as hard as possible
02:40:11 <CakeProphet> Eh.... square root doesn't come into play that often.. really.
02:42:13 <CakeProphet> Numbers in general... are... really only needed for a few things... as far as practical programming goes..
02:42:25 <CakeProphet> Unles.. of course... you're building something that is specifically intended for mathemathics.
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02:47:01 <oerjanj> well, Python is no worse than Glass, where even addition is a method...
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