00:00:14 <lament> i'm not _quite_ sure you understand yourself what you're talking about
00:00:36 <pikhq> lament: Like I said, I'm making it up as I go right now. :p
00:00:54 <pikhq> You're just getting my thoughts on the subject right now.
00:01:39 <lament> i don't want your thoughts, i want a spec :)
00:01:56 <pikhq> Argh. I'm not entirely sure that's truly multidimensional code.
00:02:16 <pikhq> It's merely code that has a lot of ways to fork.
00:02:37 <pikhq> Still seems good in my head, but. . .
00:02:48 <pikhq> It's more of a "Brainfuck with functions" as it is, right now.
00:04:11 <lament> for the love of god, can people stop creating more brainfuck variants?
00:04:14 <lament> there's 9832478907345 already
00:04:23 <pikhq> lament: Sorry. Thought this was interesting.
00:04:41 <pikhq> It's not too late to abort it, though. :p
00:09:17 * pikhq has a (rather small) spec. . .
00:10:01 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/115926
00:14:00 <pikhq> It's all my fault, isn't it?
00:15:09 <lament> holy shit the topic is long.
00:15:54 <pikhq> Thoughts? Comments? Accusations of stupidity?
00:18:46 <pikhq> I was beginning to think that myself.
00:18:56 <pikhq> It seems my brain and I have gone our seperate ways.
00:24:29 <pikhq> Could you just forget everything I've aid in the past. . . $large_amount_of_time?
00:25:39 <pikhq> Could you at least be willing to try and forgive me?
00:31:15 <pikhq> (I assume that'd be pending upon me doing something smart)
00:34:35 <pikhq> Now, I've got a psuedo-smart specification on my hard drive.
00:34:44 <pikhq> And no, I'm not posting it yet.
00:35:05 <pikhq> I want to re-examine it some time when I'm not in the middle of a stupidity streak.
00:59:34 <pikhq> I think programming in this is going to be a bitch.
01:00:25 <GregorR-W> (Unlike BF, in which programming is like a cool summer breeze)
01:08:47 <pgimeno> <ihope> Well, ][ is useless, except in making comments.
01:08:47 <pgimeno> <ihope> Just like <>, ><, +-, and -+.
01:09:49 <pgimeno> I can find uses for all of the pairs of commands in the second line.
01:10:44 <pgimeno> Many BF interpreters stop when D=0 and executing <, so <> can be thought of as "Stop if D=0; otherwise continue normally."
01:11:28 <ihope_> What about the others?
01:11:32 <pgimeno> >< can be a check to stop if no more memory is available.
01:12:09 <pgimeno> In the case of nonwrapping-constrained interpreters, -+ can serve as a check for if an attempt to decrement zero is done.
01:12:41 <pgimeno> And, of course, +- can be used for overflow detection in the same interpreter scenario.
01:13:15 <pgimeno> I can't find a use for ][, though, except writing comments which is useful per se.
01:13:39 <pgimeno> Or even commenting out code.
01:15:11 <ihope_> Well, they're all useless in BF interpreters which provide infinite tapes in both directions and allow arbitrary integers of either sign...
01:15:47 <pgimeno> which are not very numerous and are highly nonstandard
01:16:28 <pgimeno> (nonstandard for the infinite tape part)
01:17:36 <pgimeno> But that will not stop you if you were planning a BF-tidy program :)
01:20:09 <pgimeno> I have also imagined another BF variant in which ][ could be useful
01:21:24 <pgimeno> so the number of BF variations is now 9832478907346 including mine
01:22:10 <pgimeno> in this variant the code starts at data position -1 and goes backwards
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01:23:27 <pgimeno> the commands are in ASCII so it permits self-modification
01:24:07 <pgimeno> but in order to manipulate instructions it may be necessary to have "dead code" in the middle of the program
01:25:00 <pgimeno> this would allow a BFOS, since in this way loaders could be written
01:26:00 <ihope_> But it wouldn't allow optimization of code and all that.
01:26:16 <pgimeno> yeah, you have to live with that
01:26:55 <pgimeno> but some programs with unbalanced [] could even be valid
01:27:51 <pgimeno> e.g. a program with an extra ] could be valid if the data area (which is also executable) has been written with a matching [
01:28:45 <pgimeno> or if self-modified to match
01:29:10 <pgimeno> it opens a whole new world of BF power :)
01:29:33 <ihope_> Here's an idea: an optimizing BF compiler that turns its input into some fancy type thing, then churns out something of that type, which is the compiled program.
01:29:58 <ihope_> It'd be hard to guarantee that each type only goes with one program, though, eh?
01:30:56 <pgimeno> I don't get the fancy type thing part
01:36:28 <RodgerTheGreat> pgimeno: don't forget that +-, -+, <>, and >< could be useful in a self-modifying BF program as spacers, even moreso ][, which in the case of [......][.....] could be "opened up" to [............] as a simple way of extending a main loop.
01:37:28 <pgimeno> yeah, interesting usage case too :)
01:45:30 <ihope_> The compiler would just turn its input into some complex specification of just what the program does, then turn it into some other type of code.
01:49:36 <RodgerTheGreat> I always thought a good tool would be a powerful preprocessor for BF that would support things like macros, variable names, etc, (vaguely like BFBASIC, perhaps), that would render out raw BF, and then a matching BF compiler that would transform the raw BF into efficient assembly.
01:50:32 <RodgerTheGreat> they kinda exist as seperate utilities, but if you combined the two it would be like a regular high-level language.
01:51:13 <RodgerTheGreat> brings to mind the old "gluing parts onto a skateboard to make a luxury car" adage.
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02:06:18 * pikhq just might have his infinite dimensional Brainfuck variant specified by now. . .
02:08:20 <pikhq> I think ihope can attest that, right now, you *don't* want to see it.
02:09:17 <pikhq> Give me a couple more days to make sure I'm not just on crack by mistake. :p
02:56:45 <RodgerTheGreat> this image speaks to me: http://i.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/08-04-06-difficulty/occamsmonkey.jpg
03:01:34 <GregorR> Diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiet Cherry Vanilla Orange Grape Lemon Lime Mint Roast Chicken Mayonnaise and Colaaaaaaaaaaaa Dr Pepper!
03:04:25 <RodgerTheGreat> we should design a language around your previous sentence so that it will *become* a hello world.
03:10:35 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. "Hello, World" = 12 characters. there are 12 a's in "Colaaaaaaaaaaaa", so that can be output.
03:10:58 <RodgerTheGreat> "Diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiet" can allocate a stack or something...
03:11:25 <RodgerTheGreat> and then we need to get "Cherry Vanilla Orange Grape Lemon Lime Mint Roast Chicken Mayonnaise" to push data into a stack... or something...
03:49:44 <pikhq> http://nickv111.is-a-geek.com:8080/~pikhq/dimensifuck
03:53:51 <RodgerTheGreat> wait- isn't this ultimately just a *big* three dimensional space?
03:55:02 <pikhq> That's a bug in how I'm specifying the dimensions.
03:55:13 <pikhq> I need a good damned way of doing it.
03:56:51 <pikhq> Then a set of those series is 6d. . . And so on.
03:57:23 <RodgerTheGreat> now, to actually store this as a data structure, you'll need a treelike system.
03:57:53 <RodgerTheGreat> problem is, you'd have to define it bottom-up, which makes things difficult.
03:57:53 <pikhq> I'd prefer a way of representing it in simple ASCII.
04:01:01 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't think there's a simple way to represent xD code that is at the same time clear.
04:03:14 <pikhq> Maybe express it as follows: 2D piece 1, 3D piece 4, 4D piece 3. . . etc.?
04:03:20 <RodgerTheGreat> heh. idea- add a command that sets you to a random "dimensional index"...
04:03:59 <RodgerTheGreat> I would define dimensions like ip addresses- x.y.z.a?.b?...
04:04:16 <pikhq> Hmm. That's a good idea.
04:05:55 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/dcvogllmrcmcdp.ogg
04:06:13 <RodgerTheGreat> if you want to define your code that way, you can preface each command with an address like that- sorta like BASIC line-numbers.
04:08:08 <pikhq> What'd be nice is a program to allow easy editing of code like this. ;)
04:09:09 <pikhq> I've got a new spec up.
04:09:19 * RodgerTheGreat perceives the meaning of gregor's enigmatic food-related statement!
04:09:20 <pikhq> Try it, and see if that's a less sucky version.
04:09:34 <pikhq> Sorry. Need to copy to public_html.
04:09:48 <GregorR> Incidentally, that first section is my voice unedited. Yeah, my voice sucks.
04:11:44 <pikhq> I made edits, and they disappeared.
04:12:01 <GregorR> Crap, I screwed it up .... I didn't say "lemon lime" in the "small print"
04:16:48 <pikhq> The spec could use refining, I know, but I believe now it should at least be actually infinite-dimensional in nature. . .
04:18:15 <pikhq> If it actually is correct, then I dare someone to write an interpreter or compiler for it. :p
04:19:24 * RodgerTheGreat demands a credit line for fundamental underlying concepts of dimensifuck.
04:21:15 <pikhq> Just getting your head around it is a challenge. Specifying a language in it is making me near-insane.
04:21:45 <pikhq> And the fact that I'm not even sure if any of it makes any sense at all isn't helping.
04:22:26 <RodgerTheGreat> just be sure to include my name somewhere in the Esolang article when you create it.
04:23:12 <pikhq> Along with Nick, for a) giving me the idea and b) trying to convert my scratchings into a proper LaTeX spec.
04:24:20 <pikhq> I'd do it, but I'm not entirely capable of figuring out what I mean at the moment, so. . .
04:28:15 <pikhq> There, that should be a bit more clear.
04:28:56 <pikhq> Sorry. Need to fix it.
04:29:11 <pikhq> My explanation of the example code, mostly.
04:31:13 * pikhq waits for the inevitable accusations of stupidity/insanity
04:34:24 * pikhq just realised one thing that it needs
04:34:35 <pikhq> You think maybe I could use a way to end the program?
04:34:55 <RodgerTheGreat> programs that end are easier to write interpreters for.
04:36:16 <pikhq> It already clashes with Braintwist. :p
04:37:17 <pikhq> Well, at least I know my language is Turing complete, via a trivial isomorphism with Brainfuck. ;p
04:38:20 <pikhq> Just do: 1.1 *brainfuck code here*X
04:39:20 <pikhq> Any Brainfuck coder can write for Dimensibrain. Just not every Brainfuck coder can use the dimensional features. ;)
04:39:39 <pikhq> Argh. s/ibrain/ifuck/
04:39:48 * pikhq needs to get the name right, at least.
04:39:51 <GregorR> <pikhq> Argh. s/ibrain/ifuck/
04:40:36 <RodgerTheGreat> ^ notice the clever combination of "Brillaint" and "ain't" (which is not a word)
04:40:49 <pikhq> Now. . . Do you think that it's now actually validly multi-dimensional, and *gasp* makes sense?
04:41:46 * pikhq notices an issue. . .
04:43:46 <RodgerTheGreat> you have to *tell* me the issue before I can solve it, unless you want me to make shit up.
04:44:12 <pikhq> It's just that ^ and v ended up doing the opposite of what they'd appear to do.
04:44:33 <pikhq> That's just an issue with my example code.
04:44:45 * pikhq needs to stop coding when he's this irrational.
04:48:08 <pikhq> *There*, the example code should now actually fit the language.
04:49:27 <pikhq> It's actually a language that makes some sense now, I believe.
04:49:37 <pikhq> And it only took me a few hours to get there. :p
04:50:26 <RodgerTheGreat> d'you know that gasoline smell? Smells like... victory!
04:50:51 * pikhq runs s/three/five/ on his spec
04:53:27 <pikhq> I believe this can be called "masochism at work" now.
04:53:40 * pikhq dares anyone to implement it
05:01:28 <pikhq> A certificate which is written in Dimensifuck.
05:03:57 <RodgerTheGreat> "In a moment, pikhq is going to step into another dimension. A dimension not only of sight and sound, but of the mind. There's a signpost up ahead- he has entered... The Dimensifuck Zone..."
05:06:02 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm glad I stumbled across this channel a few days ago- I feel so at home. :)
05:07:54 <RodgerTheGreat> I've been learning about esolangs as a hobby for years now- little did I know there was a community of madmen (and madwomen) just like me RIGHT BELOW MY NOSE
05:17:13 <pikhq> Just be glad I'm not overloading the operators. :p
05:20:37 <RodgerTheGreat> I've been thinking about the feasibility of implementing a raytracer in BFVGA, but I know nothing about raytracing other than that it's slow and looks cool.
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05:46:25 <pikhq> A friend convinced me that ^ and v should be conditional, so we can get rid of [ and ].
05:47:21 <pikhq> And Nick got a nice LaTeX version.
05:48:25 <pikhq> http://nickv111.is-a-geek.com/~pikhq/dimensifuck.tex
05:49:08 <BigZaphod> RodgerTheGreat: hey! I remember you. :-)
05:49:17 <BigZaphod> I made Whirl, Cow, Taxi, and 3code. ;-)
05:49:53 <pikhq> I've been working on Dimensifuck with a few people.
05:50:11 <BigZaphod> been quite awhile since I've been in that world, though. :-)
05:50:25 <BigZaphod> anyway, I'm just popping off to play a game with the wife for a spell. be back later. ;-)
05:51:10 <pikhq> http://nickv111.is-a-geek.com:8080/~pikhq/dimensifuck.tex
05:52:33 <pikhq> Actually, that happened by chance.
05:52:38 <pikhq> He didn't hear any of that.
05:52:46 * pikhq didn't right that; my friend Nick did
05:53:15 <pikhq> Argh. This has been a very bad day for me. Can't seem to think at all.
05:53:51 <pikhq> Him? Probably being punny.
05:54:40 <pikhq> He's serious, and begs to differ with you.
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05:55:59 <GregorR> I am Alpha and Omega. And that guy is Epsilon.
05:56:24 <nickv111> Um, pikhq tells me you guys don't think Upsilon is a Greek letter, or something of the like
05:56:25 <RodgerTheGreat> I assume that you, nickv111, are the guy assisting pikhq with his esolang.
05:56:28 <pikhq> nickv111: RodgerTheGreat just found out you're both right.
05:56:39 <RodgerTheGreat> [12:54am] RodgerTheGreat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upsilon
05:56:39 <RodgerTheGreat> [12:54am] RodgerTheGreat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epsilon
05:56:39 <RodgerTheGreat> [12:55am] RodgerTheGreat: We're both right, it would appear. :/
05:57:04 <nickv111> Right, I said specifically to pikhq, "If you look up greek letters, Upsilon is definitely a greek letter
05:57:14 <nickv111> Both of them are definitely greek letters"
05:57:17 <nickv111> So, I said both of them were definitely greek letters.
05:57:48 <nickv111> Yeah, I never said that Epsilon isn't a greek letter. I said that Epsilon and Upsilon are two completely separate letters
05:57:53 <nickv111> Just wanted to clear that up ;)
05:57:55 <pikhq> I didn't see that when I said "He's serious, and begs to differ with you.".
05:58:56 <pikhq> nickv111: So, would you agree with me that anyone who implements this is quite probably insane?
05:59:01 <RodgerTheGreat> interestingly, it appears nick and I came up with similar explanations for multiple dimensions independently.
06:00:40 <RodgerTheGreat> [10:55pm] RodgerTheGreat: use dimensions like a tree structure.
06:00:40 <RodgerTheGreat> [10:55pm] RodgerTheGreat: imagine a cubical arrangement of cells.
06:00:41 <RodgerTheGreat> [10:55pm] RodgerTheGreat: now imagine a line of these cubes- that's time.
06:00:43 <RodgerTheGreat> [10:56pm] RodgerTheGreat: now imagine a whole series of these lines. that's 5d
06:00:51 <RodgerTheGreat> [10:56pm] RodgerTheGreat: good. I'm glad I could describe it.
06:00:53 <RodgerTheGreat> [10:56pm] pikhq: Then a set of those series is 6d. . . And so on.
06:00:56 <RodgerTheGreat> [10:56pm] RodgerTheGreat: just imagine panning back infinitely.
06:00:58 <RodgerTheGreat> [10:57pm] RodgerTheGreat: now, to actually store this as a data structure, you'll need a treelike system.
06:05:34 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I'm going to get some sleep. Good night, everyone.
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17:12:18 * pikhq wonders if someone's going to be crazy enough to implement Dimensifuck
17:13:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I dunno... I might try it in Java at some point, but my OOP-fu is weak
17:14:00 <pikhq> One condition: try and make it work with GCJ, please.
17:14:11 * pikhq doesn't like having non-free software around. . .
17:14:20 <RodgerTheGreat> creating the data structure necessary for storing code is gonna be a bitch.
17:15:06 <pikhq> Well, it should just end up being a simple CLI app, so it should work with GCJ. . .
17:15:32 * pikhq also likes the ability to compile the Java bytecode to a native binary. ;)
17:15:39 <RodgerTheGreat> I have access to a shell on a machine with GCJ so I ought to be able to test it out.
17:16:31 <RodgerTheGreat> Java is really pretty fast, dude- a properly coded app can achieve 60-70% the speed of C, and it's actually portable. Take a look at JAKE, for example.
17:17:42 <pikhq> Yeah, yeah, yeah. . .
17:17:51 * pikhq codes in Tcl, not C, anyways. ;)
17:18:47 <RodgerTheGreat> C has it's place (coding drivers, for example), but I think it's inconvenient for most of my purposes.
17:19:09 <RodgerTheGreat> I've done most of my recent coding work in PHP, actually.
17:19:50 <pikhq> I think *Java* is inconvenient for most purposes.
17:20:41 <pikhq> Combines the ease of use of C++ with the speed of running your code in an emulator.
17:20:51 <RodgerTheGreat> textedit -> javac -> java. No screwing around with preprocessors, makefiles or compiler flags.
17:21:39 <pikhq> Then I'll run gcj on the Java bytecode when I get it, so I have a native binary.
17:22:48 <pikhq> Mostly for simplicity of execution; using gij to execute it takes a little bit more typing.
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19:55:33 <Razor-X> Especially on older machines.
19:56:35 <lindi-> Razor-X: got some benchmark?
19:57:27 <Razor-X> Not as much speed as it eats up memory like the devil.
19:57:39 <Razor-X> Especially on a box with only 256 MB of RAM.
19:57:54 <lindi-> depends on the program i guess
19:58:13 <Razor-X> Even something small like jMemorize takes up almost as much memory as an Opera session with 40 tabs.
19:58:56 <Razor-X> Java and GTK2 are the two biggest memory hogs for Linux. GTK2 is improving, but I can't see Java improving.
19:59:28 <Razor-X> Not unless you use the OSS VMs, which require GNU Classpath for the most part, which relies on a bunch of stupid Gnome dependancies that I don't want to deal with.
20:00:39 <lindi-> Razor-X: gnu classpath has QT4 peers
20:00:50 <lindi-> Razor-X: and pure X peers are being planned
20:00:51 <pikhq> It uses too damned much memory. And I've got 1G. . .
20:01:26 <lindi-> "java.lang.reflect.InvocationTargetException at java.lang.reflect.Method.invokeNative(Native Method) at java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke(Method.java:372) at jamvm.java.lang.JarLauncher.main(JarLauncher.java:49) Caused by: java.lang.NullPointerException at jmemorize.gui.swing.CardTable.valueChanged(Unknown Source) at javax.swing.DefaultListSelectionModel.fireValueChanged(DefaultListSelectionModel.java:710) "
20:01:41 <pikhq> Razor-X: What do you think of Dimensifuck?
20:01:53 <GregorR> C = nice. C++ = horrible but usable bastardization of C. Java = horrible, weak, insulting bastardization of C++.
20:02:09 <GregorR> (Insulting because it treats the programmer like an idiot)
20:02:29 <GregorR> Derrr, what are pointers? ME SCARED BY POINTER ARITHM...ARITH...ADDING N' STUFF!
20:03:35 <Razor-X> lindi-: Oh yes, QT4 is also full of annoying dependancies. I only have QT3.
20:03:48 <pikhq> Jeeze. . . If you're going tu use C syntax, at least be willing to use the power of pointers.
20:04:05 <pikhq> (They may be highly annoying at times, but they *are* powerful in the right hands)
20:04:07 <lindi-> Razor-X: i'm all in favor of reusing parts and not reinventing the wheel unnecessarily :)
20:04:08 <Razor-X> I prefer C# over Java many times over, personally.
20:04:08 <GregorR> Actually, Qt4 has very few dependencies ...
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20:04:27 <lindi-> Razor-X: and as i said, it is possible to add new peers quite easily
20:04:34 <pikhq> Razor-X: Oddly enough, C# is more free then C++. ;)
20:04:40 <Razor-X> GregorR: I don't run any DE, or anything resembling one.... so anything that depends too heavily past GTK/GTK2 or base of QT is annoying for me.
20:05:10 <GregorR> pikhq: I was gonna say ... :P
20:05:17 <Razor-X> Yeah, I know. It's really ``hit it off'' in the OSS community.
20:05:18 <GregorR> Public service announcement: D.
20:05:33 <Razor-X> lindi-: Are there any pure GTK2 or QT3 peers?
20:05:35 <lindi-> but portability is a problem with java definitely, too many programs run only on sun's class library
20:05:43 <GregorR> Razor-X: Which is disgusting, because as soon as it's big enough in the OSS community, M$ will drop their patent hammer.
20:05:52 <Razor-X> For GNU Classpath, since I wouldn't mind running Kaffee just to bear with my Java programs.
20:06:27 <Razor-X> GregorR: That's why Mono and <the-other-implementation> are being written, no?
20:06:53 <GregorR> Razor-X: You can't break copyright law without knowing it. You can break patent law without knowing it.
20:07:20 <lindi-> Razor-X: there's GTK and QT4 currently
20:07:35 <Razor-X> lindi-: But GTK depends on GConf.
20:08:21 <lindi-> well, if i can get freedom by spending some extra ram i'm all for it :)
20:09:15 <Razor-X> Freedom shouldn't come at the cost of the means of production.
20:09:25 <Razor-X> (Shameless Marx reference.)
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23:14:23 <pikhq> ihope: I think you'll be glad to hear that my infinite dimensional Brainfuck variant is now in the realms of sanity.
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23:23:53 <pikhq> The last time he saw it, I think, it wasn't even ooD.
23:23:57 <pikhq> It was more like 3D.
23:24:08 * pikhq was highly confused then
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23:24:44 <RodgerTheGreat> well, now dimensions are defined quite a bit differently.
23:25:19 <RodgerTheGreat> the last spec I saw defined "dimension indices" in a format a bit like an IP.
23:26:16 <pikhq> Which is how it still works.
23:26:41 <pikhq> Really hasn't changed much since late last night.
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