< 1146268830 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and was a little disconcerted to find that when he returned home, he'd turned into a giant insect < 1146268841 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kate`: and what alternative are you suggesting < 1146268868 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari, for this example, to store objects directly, instead of serialising them (files are serialisations of objects) < 1146268888 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari, that's not even a new idea, but it emphasises how stuck-in-a-rut we are in our ways < 1146268906 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "it's always been this way" or "this works, why change it" train of thought disgusts me < 1146268915 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disks store bits in a serial fashion, even if they are random access < 1146268929 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, at a much lower level than we're talking about < 1146268951 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does your ram: do you treat your structs as a string? < 1146269006 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine you have a jpeg: the first thing you do is parse it into a tree < 1146269014 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you're done, you serialise that tree back to a file < 1146269027 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not store the parsed tree in the first place? < 1146269045 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS/400 (iirc) did this < 1146269056 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we seem to have forgotten about the idea < 1146269082 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to bed. < 1146269291 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION de-lurks < 1146269302 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm. interesting discussion :) < 1146269328 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you think so, you may enjoy this: http://www.mca-ltd.com/martin/Ten15/introduction.html < 1146269342 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about the jpeg example: how is that a fault in the OS, and not the jpeg file format? < 1146269349 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(BTW, kate`, the answer is UNIX, with files-as-byte-streams. See the essay "The rise of Worse-is-Better") < 1146269358 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to bed. < 1146269371 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, thanks :) < 1146269391 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kipple, it's the fault of the concept of a file existing at all: this is nothing specific for jpeg < 1146269406 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kipple, your XML document is not a bunch of ascii: it's a DOM tree < 1146269417 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kipple, ditto your haskell program < 1146269420 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see: smalltalk, with its "system image" < 1146269426 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*exactly* < 1146269448 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but since the hardware is serial everything has to be stored serialized. the difference is just at what level the serialization occurs < 1146269463 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, VMS, with its "indexed files" (database tables). < 1146269469 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kipple, yes, but this is a much lower level < 1146269484 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the LISP machine. < 1146269495 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, indeed :) < 1146269515 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, i recognise this essay, btw < 1146269536 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some list terps saved and restored a memory image every weekend instead of doing run-time GC. :-D < 1146269543 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*LISP < 1146269588 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION really goes to bed this time. < 1146269597 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1146269669 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I completely understand what you want, but doesn't modern virtual machines like java and .NET do something like that? < 1146269729 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kipple, sure, a .NET OS would be equivalent. why has it taken since the mid 80s to appear? < 1146269743 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it'd also be humonosly less beautiful, i bet) < 1146269749 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1146269767 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ten15 was around so much earler - and so were other beautiful examples < 1146269785 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the essay SimonRC mentioned explains why: "worse is better" has better survival characteristics < 1146269790 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. they win because of marketing < 1146269992 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html < 1146270004 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Once the virus has spread, there will be pressure to improve it, possibly by increasing its functionality closer to 90%, but users have already been conditioned to accept worse than the right thing." < 1146270029 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compare that to the ideas earlier for small incremental improvements (adding features, etc) < 1146270038 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and see how heavily ingrained that concept has become < 1146272467 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1146273487 0 :GregorR!n=gregor@paulus.cs.pdx.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1146274943 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1146274946 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1146297599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1146297600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1146297799 0 :pierce_!n=pierce@dsl093-040-198.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1146297847 0 :pierce_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1146310474 0 :kipple!n=kipple@250.80-202-100.nextgentel.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1146326583 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No conversation in over TWELVE HOURS. < 1146329046 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's rather common in this channel... < 1146330591 0 :nooga!i=nooga@ip-50.net-41.rev.inter-c.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1146330601 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1146330611 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1146331340 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i>o < 1146331371 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why egobot is not here? < 1146333255 0 :Baughn!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His creator had an acute attack of humility < 1146333296 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm, i see < 1146333306 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1146333437 0 :Baughn!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Saturn was in presentile conjunction with mars, causing fear of morbidity in all egobot creators. < 1146333538 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nasty < 1146333544 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION jumps on Baughn < 1146333605 0 :Baughn!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kate`: ..what, do you want your palm read? < 1146333695 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there're people doing that in town - if the process didn't involve giving them money, i'd try it, just to see what they have to say < 1146333724 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit hard to read the palm over IRC... < 1146333738 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could draw it in ascii art < 1146333762 0 :Baughn!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah. A *true* palm reader can see your palm even across half a planet. < 1146333891 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm. an online palm reading service... that could be a good business plan :D < 1146333902 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1146333956 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"please place your palm on your mouse and sit still for 10 seconds while concentrating on positive energies" < 1146333988 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAA NOOOO! attack of the VIDEO-TAPE-RECORDER-MAN!!! ...again?! < 1146334109 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kipple: that's damn good idea, i think i'll implement it because i've got loads of free time < 1146334127 0 :Baughn!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mouse? "Please place your palm on the screen for ten seconds while we scan it. (See this visible moving line)" < 1146334140 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah. even better < 1146334151 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1146334160 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if someone has an optical mouse < 1146334196 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with this terrifying red laser eye < 1146334269 0 :kate`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to sort through bank stuff < 1146334324 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"for extra accurate palm readings please purchase our patented USB palm scanner for only $299.99" < 1146334356 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xDD < 1146334383 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet that there is a group of pph who would be ready to buy it < 1146334386 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ppl* < 1146335018 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe < 1146335039 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :online church fete store? ;d < 1146335054 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or selling church fetes on ebay < 1146335069 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a church fete? < 1146335088 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1146335114 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAIK it's a deletion of all your sins < 1146335123 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some < 1146335140 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of them... depends on price ;d < 1146335197 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite popular in middle ages < 1146335206 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I know < 1146335266 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :put my list of grades through: plot . zip [1..] . map (log . (100-)) . sort and you get an almost straight line :-S < 1146335270 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :odd < 1146335301 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell < 1146335328 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Haskell. < 1146335405 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for the grade of 100%, which goes wrong < 1146335426 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh: "But after a while I learned the trick of speaking fast. You don't have to think any faster; just use twice as many words to say everything." < 1146338809 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1146339897 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip68-231-173-86.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1146340980 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1146341984 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*yaaaaaaaaawn* < 1146342166 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION falls asleep < 1146343409 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1146343414 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip68-231-173-86.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1146345468 0 :GregorR_!n=gregor@andmike.cs.pdx.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1146345522 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1146345562 0 :GregorR_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :GregorR < 1146345637 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION begins snoring < 1146346138 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you're sleep chatting? :) < 1146346176 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wakes up < 1146346190 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One could say that :-) < 1146347778 0 :sekhmet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1146347794 0 :sekhmet!n=pez@ppp-70-226-165-36.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1146350737 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I heard about a guy who would cook meals in his sleep < 1146350745 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He was a professional chef. < 1146351733 0 :ihope__!n=ihope@c-67-172-99-160.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1146351742 0 :ihope__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ihope < 1146351857 0 :graue!i=graue@ip68-100-130-21.dc.dc.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1146352270 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1146352978 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got another interp down to 42 bytes.. was hoping for smaller < 1146353004 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it interpret? < 1146353025 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a modified form of oisc < 1146353058 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that 42 bytes for the binary? < 1146353084 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1146353086 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what platform? < 1146353091 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8088 < 1146353145 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: btw, curious if you implemented those spam changes that were posted < 1146353267 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the best solution, if code is changing, is to implement a password box.. then the browser can save the password < 1146353289 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt very much if the spammers will bother to update their code for one wiki < 1146353316 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did this on the qemu wiki and haven't had any spam since < 1146353371 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course the password is printed right next to the box.. basically the simplest captcha possible < 1146353771 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1146353808 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it would be a machine-readable CAPTCHA, pretty much? < 1146353848 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but as long as no machine implements it, who cares < 1146353880 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another idea along the same lines is to change the html so the form is different < 1146353899 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia hides values in the form < 1146353902 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc etc < 1146353919 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is slightly better I think, because it doesn't rely on browser tricks < 1146353986 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, didn't explain that ery well, did I < 1146354095 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia sends a value with the editing page, whihc the browser automaically submits back to them, so they know it was a browser < 1146354669 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an even simpler captcha method is what I implemented in a phpBB forum a few weeks ago < 1146354685 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Always check this checkbox: [ ]" < 1146354712 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lordkiri.lo.funpic.org/ (when trying to post) < 1146354742 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spam is no longer a problem there < 1146354789 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: great idea! < 1146354835 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(besides, there's another change that is not relevant here: when registering a new user, no URL is allowed) < 1146354934 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1146354957 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the "Web page" field *must* be blank < 1146354968 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there were massive registrations of spammers < 1146354980 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to increase Google rating, I suppose < 1146355017 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1146355060 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course I also changed the "Web page" title for the field to "Leave this blank" < 1146355063 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, did you have the confirm of email addresses in place? < 1146355074 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but spammers didn't care < 1146355096 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose they just wanted the address to appear in the user list < 1146355107 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the users appear in the list even if not active) < 1146355114 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oic < 1146355141 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or they don't care whether the email activation feature is in effect