00:16:37 <calamari> GregorR: you can just treat registers as memory locations
00:17:12 <calamari> with fancy names for the memory locations :)
00:17:17 <GregorR> It's not a problem for writing my own compiler.
00:17:23 <GregorR> It's only a problem if I want to put it in GCC.
00:17:34 <GregorR> In which case, treating it as a variable becomes infinitely problematic.
00:19:13 <lament> how hard is it to play the flute?
00:19:55 <GregorR> To just produce a sound, or to actually play it?
00:20:03 <puzzlet> easier than clarinet i think
00:21:07 <lament> http://z3.ca/~lament/syrinx.mp3
00:21:31 <GregorR> Well, as a professional flautist ... :P
00:21:39 <lament> how long would it take a total beginner with clumsy fingers starting at age 21 to play that well? :)
00:22:15 <GregorR> Do you play any instrument?
00:22:58 <GregorR> Woah, WTF, it didn't work XD
00:23:30 <lament> i play some instruments
00:24:07 <lament> well, harmonica, but i doubt that's what you meant :)
00:24:19 <GregorR> It is my untrained opinion that you will never play that well.
00:24:42 <lament> GregorR: do you actually play the flute?
00:24:48 <lament> and have you heard the recording? :)
00:25:06 <calamari> lament: you need to start young
00:25:07 <GregorR> It's simple enough, but I doubt it's as simple as it sounds.
00:25:15 <GregorR> And the flute has a complicated pad setup.
00:25:21 <GregorR> It's not like a piano keyboard or harmonica.
00:25:26 <lament> it doesn't sound simple at all to me
00:25:35 <lament> and harmonicas are reasonably bizarre
00:25:57 <GregorR> Amongst other things, I can play the harmonica - what I mean is that it needs combinations, etc.
00:26:07 <lament> calamari: yes, but i have problems overblowing
00:27:12 <lament> GregorR: i know it does
00:27:26 <lament> but that doesn't make it impossible to learn :)
00:27:34 <calamari> lament: where did you get the flute mp3?
00:27:39 <GregorR> But, if you don't play at least a relatively similar instrument, the learning curve would probably be quite high.
00:28:12 <GregorR> I could ask my music major friend for his opinion ;P
00:28:12 <calamari> lament: is it copyrighted or free?
00:28:30 <lament> calamari: I have no idea. Don't listen to it, it might be tainted.
00:28:42 <lament> by downloading it, you're promoting communism
00:28:58 <GregorR> From kazaa, it's almost certainly copyrighted.
00:29:02 <lament> i'll have to see if any of my friends have a flute
00:29:15 <lament> what instruments do you play?
00:29:34 <calamari> I'd leave this country if there wre a better one to go to.. but there isn't afaik
00:29:47 <GregorR> Piano, viola and I dabble in harmonica but haven't ever cared enough to play it seriously *shrugs*
00:30:36 <GregorR> What's wrong with the Viola?!
00:30:45 <GregorR> The viola is a REAL MANS instrument.
00:31:01 <GregorR> More portable than the cello but not as high as the violin.
00:31:29 <GregorR> My music major friend, incidentally, plays the cello, and pokes fun at me for my selection of the viola :P
00:32:23 <lament> i guess on the plus side, you could pretend the viola's a violin and play violin pieces on it?
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00:32:54 <GregorR> Or, I could play superior, deeper, more toneful viola pieces on it.
00:33:18 <puzzlet> i never heard of those things
00:33:32 <lament> puzzlet: yeah... me neither
00:33:46 <lament> not just superior and deeper
00:33:54 <lament> i've never heard of ANY viola pieces :)
00:34:17 <puzzlet> and cello pieces arraged for viola
00:34:17 <GregorR> Some composers fancy the viola.
00:35:12 <lament> right... the "Lesser-known" ones :)
00:35:55 <lament> "A concerto for viola and three contrabassoons by John Whatshisname"
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00:49:25 <GregorR> nooga: http://www.codu.org/c2bf.pdf
00:49:33 <GregorR> If you have any comments, feel free :P
00:56:41 <nooga> idk what to say... nice, I would never figure it out myself
00:57:40 <GregorR> Well, it seems like it'll work, but I can't guarantee anything until I write some code.
00:57:49 <GregorR> And I can't really write any code until I finish making this damn AST >_<
00:57:57 <GregorR> Then I'll have a parser and can actually do something :P
00:59:49 <GregorR> I found an ANSI C parser in YACC.
01:00:03 <GregorR> I just need to go the extra step and turn it into an AST instead of just a syntax-verifier.
01:02:28 <nooga> http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/ANSI-C-grammar-y.html << this one?
01:02:28 <GregorR> And no, it's not very difficult.
01:02:45 <GregorR> It's a very mechanical process, that I have to do for about fourty nonterminals :P
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01:05:27 <nooga> c2bf will be awesome
01:05:39 <GregorR> Don't count on it actually existing at any point XD
01:05:47 <GregorR> Just because I have a dream doesn't mean it'll ever come true.
01:07:27 <nooga> I don't despair ;p
01:10:13 <nooga> don't u think you should take some ppl to help u/
01:13:09 <GregorR> Well, the easiest part to divide up would be implementation of the basic operations.
01:13:23 <GregorR> Since each of those will basically just be a chunk of BF code.
01:13:31 <GregorR> However, I'm not really far enough to do that yet ^_^
01:13:41 <GregorR> And I'm not sure how to divide up this task :P
01:14:43 <nooga> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms << and we've got this
01:14:52 <GregorR> Yes, that will help immensely.
01:14:54 <nooga> Jeff did good work
01:22:32 <nooga> hey, where do you study?
01:25:59 <nooga> that's where this guy built that cool relay computer?
01:27:08 <GregorR> Man, I'll have to talk to this guy 8-D
01:28:00 <GregorR> I've taken every course he offers :'(
01:29:03 <GregorR> Anyway, PSU is really getting very good for computer science, and is especially good for open source :)
01:29:05 <nooga> http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/index.html
01:30:11 <GregorR> That was the guy I was just talking about.
01:30:20 <GregorR> If I had taken compilers last term, I could have taken it from him :'(
01:30:32 <GregorR> And went "OMG RELAY COMPUTER U ROX0RRRRRRRRRRZ!!!"
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01:32:41 <nooga> it must make funny sounds
01:32:51 <nooga> click click click ^ 2
01:33:36 * GregorR just wrote another page of c2bf.pdf
01:37:33 <nooga> in a minute i'll be going to #&@^(%Q#)^$@&#)%^&@# school
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07:28:07 <kipple> only one? good for you!
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07:58:37 <Keymaker> so there is a looping malbolge version of 99 bottles of beer.. awesome..
07:58:54 <Keymaker> i wonder if there is anything explanations on how the program works or was written?
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08:50:33 <ihope> If somebody managed to "almost" write a Malbolge "beer program", why no proper "Hello, world!"?
08:51:07 <Keymaker> so, is that looping version valid or not?
08:51:55 <Keymaker> there are two versions there, one that is just priting lyrics and another one that says it's looping
08:52:15 <Keymaker> oh, and wikipedia page says that some example program there prints out "Hello, world."
08:52:54 <Keymaker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbolge_programming_language
08:53:07 <Keymaker> (=<`:9876Z4321UT.-Q+*)M'&%$H"!~}|Bzy?=|{z]KwZY44Eq0/{mlk**
08:53:07 <Keymaker> hKs_dG5[m_BA{?-Y;;Vb'rR5431M}/.zHGwEDCBA@98\6543W10/.R,+O<
08:53:35 <ihope> Looks like the "other one" to me.
08:56:33 <ihope> !malbolge '=a;:?87[543216/SR2+*No-,%*#G4
08:56:53 <ihope> ...Well, that's a start, anyway.
08:57:02 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
08:57:04 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda
08:58:04 <ihope> Well, it's certainly different.
08:58:15 <ihope> The "other one" I was thinking of: (=<`$9]7<5YXz7wT.3,+O/o'K%$H"'~D|#z@b=`{^Lx8%$Xmrkpohm-kNi;gsedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:9876543s+O<oLm
10:54:44 <SimonRC> Surely there isn't a looping HW in malbolge?
10:55:27 <SimonRC> I know there is a 99BOB, but that only outputs the gzip, which is hard-coded.
10:55:49 <SimonRC> AFAIK, the only loop written in malbolge is cat.
11:10:17 <pgimeno> http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-malbolge-995.html
11:10:36 <pgimeno> EgoBot, I was not talking to you :P
11:12:56 <pgimeno> I will run it through a malbolge debugger, I have to see that in action to believe it
11:20:06 <pgimeno> judging by the execution speed it might even be true! oh my...
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11:26:41 <Keymaker> simonrc, that was what i was talking about..
11:26:59 <Keymaker> at least the 99bob page claims it's looping
11:27:16 <SimonRC> It looks mightly repetative to me
11:27:57 <pgimeno> yep, that's because there's lots of waste in Malbolge programs
11:28:31 <pgimeno> it has a one-time setup phase similar to the one I suggest
11:33:32 <pgimeno> thanks for the reference, Keymaker
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11:38:51 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/bottles-995.n <- the normalized version
11:41:44 <pgimeno> the program starts by jumping to address 98 where the initialization routine starts; there's no single jump from there until position 22044 approx.
11:42:59 <pgimeno> there isn't an output instruction there eiter, so it's safe to assume that the initialization is about 22K
11:44:21 <pgimeno> quite expectable given the complexity of the program; I'd even say it's a very compact one
11:53:39 <Keymaker> do you think it's somehow computer generated?
11:54:07 <Keymaker> instead of written instruction by instruction by hand
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13:31:15 <nooga> jix: u must be techno god or something
13:31:30 <nooga> being 14 yr old and writing parsers in haskell -.-
13:44:26 <fizzie> When I was 14 I wrote C. :/
13:44:41 <fizzie> At least that's a lot more normal.
13:45:29 <nooga> lol, writing parsers in C being 14y old? x.X
13:45:41 <fizzie> Not very sophisticated parsers, no. :p
13:46:03 <nooga> was it real parser using at least recursion? with lexer and so on?
13:46:23 <fizzie> I think I've managed to lose all my embarrassing code from that age, so can't say.
13:47:03 <fizzie> Although we did have some sort of weird DOS-based Prolog runtime in our 8088 (or was it the 286?) when I was in the tender age of something like 6 to 8. Although I'm not claiming I used it. It did have some example programs, though.
13:49:24 <fizzie> I just did GW-BASIC back then. I'm surprised I didn't emerge any more scarred that I am.
13:49:26 <nooga> when i was 6 to 8 i could only run my favourite games from a dos prompt
13:50:06 <nooga> started programming with @%(@$ TURBO damn PASCAL when i was 10
13:50:59 <nooga> only thing i've done was some stupid thingy with green letters that simulated something...
13:51:46 <nooga> many numbers and werid information, i guess i was waching some films abt "hackers"
13:51:46 <fizzie> Pascal was rather popular. I don't think I ever used it, but I think we had a "programming course" with it when I was at the school-where-people-go-when-they're-uh-13-to-16.
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13:56:31 <nooga> i'm shocked by jix's skills ;p
13:57:05 <nooga> he's 14 and he's writing interpreters in haskell and he knows lambda calculus and everything!!!!!!
13:59:07 <calamari> really sad to be corrupted at such a young age
14:00:21 <nooga> jix, come on, say something!
14:04:42 <nooga> where'd you learn haskell huh!?
14:04:57 <jix> http://www.informatik.uni-bonn.de/~ralf/teaching/Hskurs_toc.html
14:05:03 <jix> using that webpage
14:06:09 <jix> but i skipped some chapters
14:06:16 <nooga> are you learning in school o sitting home whole day?
14:06:36 <jix> well i'm at school in the morning and at home in the afternoon
14:07:09 <nooga> when do you have time to hack?
14:07:17 <nooga> and when did u started?
14:07:24 <jix> i started at grade 4
14:07:50 <jix> using RealBasic (some object orientated basic dialect for mac os)
14:09:18 <nooga> u must be fuc*ing genious
14:09:52 <nooga> what guitar do u have? :D
14:10:14 <jix> my e guitar is a very cheap and crappy yamaha one
14:10:39 <jix> and my acoustic guitar is uhmm no idea
14:11:08 <nooga> how long do u play?
14:11:25 <kipple_> hmm. quite a lot of eso-programmers also plays guitar apparently. is there a connection?? :)
14:11:26 <jix> since grade 1... for about 8,5 years
14:12:38 <jix> well i don't practice very often...
14:12:42 <nooga> from where do you get time for your activities?
14:12:58 <nooga> and who are your parents?
14:13:23 <nooga> my parents are upset when im using computer for longer than 4 hours a day
14:13:34 <jix> my parents aren't
14:14:14 <nooga> and tell me that u like sports huh?
14:14:31 <nooga> and u play football in a local team
14:18:49 <jix> i hate football
14:19:00 <jix> and i hate sports
14:19:44 <lament> but i don't like it much :)
14:27:54 <{^Raven^}> kipple_: you might be on to something :/
14:33:57 <calamari> had to use our chat log yesterday because I forgot how the newer bfbasic line numbering scheme worked
14:37:13 <{^Raven^}> it looks promising for GregorRs project
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14:38:11 <{^Raven^}> i've been doing some more thinkig about bfbasic recently
14:40:48 <{^Raven^}> writing unit tests for each of the commands, exxpressions and array handling
14:41:36 * calamari needs to figure out how to enjoy writing tests more
14:42:14 <calamari> java's junit should be good for that
14:43:08 <{^Raven^}> bfdebug is definately going to come in handy
14:44:00 <{^Raven^}> i need to get each of the known bfbasic issues down to the smallest source that displays the problem
14:44:26 <jix> reqwrite it in rubye
14:45:13 <{^Raven^}> jix: I'd rather see a stable release of bfbasic first
14:45:29 <calamari> although bfbasic does need to be rewriten
14:46:14 <jix> ruby has racc, it's a pretty nice parser generator
14:46:30 <calamari> seems like it I were to rewrite c or c++ would be preferred
14:46:44 <jix> why python but not ruby?
14:47:17 <jix> it's like python but has some nice additional features
14:47:27 <jix> and a different syntax
14:47:27 <{^Raven^}> C has the advantage of being uber multi-platform
14:48:10 <jix> yeah but you have to concentrate on many things that arn't really important for the problem you're trying to solve
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14:48:18 <calamari> and then once c2bf is done we can compile it to bf :P
14:48:40 <jix> we could implement it in bfbasic
14:49:06 <jix> yeah of course the current bf basic isn't able to do that
14:50:08 <jix> if you don't want to use ruby i'd vote for python
14:51:16 <calamari> I think my next "python" project would be porting linguine to c
14:51:50 <calamari> right now programs have to be run under python
14:54:57 <{^Raven^}> the results from the logical brainfuck competition would give bfbasic the bitwise logic operators
14:55:34 <calamari> but I'm not sure that I ever implemented them
14:55:50 <calamari> just pseudocode that seemed good
14:56:02 <calamari> I wanted to be able to do it in a constant amount of memory
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15:14:08 <{^Raven^}> what would you change in a rewrite of bfbasic?
15:15:16 <calamari> I'd preferrably like a separate file for each function or command
15:16:25 <calamari> making functions work will be a pain with it
15:16:48 <calamari> would be better to scrap it and use something like bison
15:17:49 <calamari> also, I really wish I didn't have bf code hardcoded in certain places in the main loops of code.. that just feels wrong
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15:18:20 <calamari> I never got to take my compilers class
15:19:09 <{^Raven^}> named functions and procedures should be farly simple to implement
15:19:34 <calamari> java's reflection should make it easy
15:20:38 <calamari> could use it to dynamically load class files based on their fingerprint (say they extend or implement a certain class)
15:21:10 <calamari> adding a new command is as easy as compiling the class file and re-running
15:21:40 <calamari> so there wouldn't be that awful switch
15:22:04 <{^Raven^}> passing parameters is the hardest, especially if you allow recurson and give local scope to named variables
15:23:16 <{^Raven^}> there will need to be a variable heap
15:23:53 <calamari> also a problem are all thos global variables
15:24:13 <calamari> so yeah, the implementation leaves much to be desired
15:25:22 <calamari> I guess c gets around the function thing by linking with libraries
15:25:49 <calamari> that won't work too well with bfbasic tho, since function calls are expensive
15:27:31 <{^Raven^}> all the changes are in the bfbasic CVS tree
15:28:09 <calamari> cool, I'll have to see how you did that
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15:50:24 <GregorR-L> Good day to you, my good friends, upon this fine Thursday afternoon (or whatever time it is where you are).
15:52:34 <GregorR-L> Alas, there is no conversation here :P
15:59:20 <GregorR-L> And it led to BFBASIC ... so I could have manipulated it into a conversation about C2BF XP
15:59:54 <kipple_> still confuses me sometimes though
16:00:21 <GregorR-L> Well, just remember that Windows XP is named after the smiley of somebody who uses Windows XP.
16:00:24 <kipple_> does look like your writing C2BF for windowsXP, and you don't want that do you ;)
16:01:30 <kipple_> I don't smile like that ;)
16:02:14 <GregorR-L> Today I'll write a page on C2BF relocatable object files.
16:02:34 <GregorR-L> main: *BF CODE*(symbol reference)<constant value>
16:04:47 <kipple_> hopefully someone who understands what you're talking about will read the logs... XP
16:07:24 <GregorR-L> When I write a page on it, it'll make more sense :P
16:20:59 <GregorR-L> What's a symbol that has no meaning in C or BF ...
16:21:27 <GregorR-L> (And furthermore, is an error in C)
16:21:51 <GregorR-L> # ... after preprocessing, # is an error, right?
23:18:39 <{^Raven^}> GregorR-L: It's an interesting and worthwhile project
23:19:06 <GregorR-L> I don't know if I agree that it's worthwhile :P
23:19:32 <{^Raven^}> GregorR-L: Have you seen the SmallC compiler on sourceforge? it's a retargetable C compiler for 8-bit platforms
23:20:01 <GregorR-L> I think BF is just too different from any real architecture to base this on a normal compiler.
23:20:59 <{^Raven^}> there ws talk a few years back to retargeting an existing compiler to bfasm
23:21:19 <GregorR-L> calamari recommended against targetting BFASM :)
23:21:41 <GregorR-L> I'm trying directly C->BF, no middle state.
23:21:49 <GregorR-L> I think it's best that way, or I'm insane.
23:21:55 <{^Raven^}> i reckon that's going to be the best way
23:22:49 <{^Raven^}> all this compiler talk is making me want to play with bfbasic again
23:23:08 <GregorR-L> I need to get my AST tree generator done so you can play with C2BF instead 8-D
23:23:32 <GregorR-L> By writing basic operator action (the worlds most fun thing to do :P)
23:24:57 <{^Raven^}> bfgolf has made a few good advances