2005-11-01: 00:01:55 You pretty much have him pegged. 00:02:02 but alas, I run late. 00:02:07 so take care, all 00:14:14 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 00:15:05 my deepest condolences to stux, shame he had to be banned when he tried to help 00:17:19 yeah. hopefully he wont be scared away 00:17:38 somebody got banned? 00:17:54 in this channel? 00:17:59 no. on the wiki 00:18:08 ah 00:18:51 graue really is harsh, I remember when I fixed that spelling error :p 00:19:02 hehe 00:38:07 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 00:40:32 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 00:41:19 -!- calamari has joined. 00:46:49 -!- graue has joined. 00:46:53 hey, I have an idea 00:47:07 on the wiki, instead of that overkill "year category" thing, why don't we do a [[timeline of esoteric programming languages]] 00:47:27 then we could add analysis of what inspired what and suchlike 00:47:41 Be bold in editing ;) 00:47:42 that'd be cool 00:48:12 -!- EsoBot has joined. 00:48:29 I guess P'' now counts as the first esoteric programming language? 00:48:44 it's funny having INTERCAL be second all of a sudden 00:48:52 the advantage of the category approach is that you don't have to edit the article averytime you add a new language 00:49:06 well, only "notable" languages should be included in the timeline 00:49:10 but having a proper article gives more options 00:49:30 deciding what is notable is not too easy though 00:49:42 there are some languages that someone just made in a few hours and nobody noticed and no programs were written by anyone else 00:49:51 true 00:49:53 Archway, 1L-a, Braincopter, etc 00:49:55 Many 00:49:56 those don't count 00:50:56 personally I don't see the problem with having a category for each year (at least for > 1990) 00:51:19 but a timeline article might be a good compromise 00:52:16 whether or not P" counts is an interesting topic :) 00:52:34 P prime prime, though, not P quotation mark 00:53:13 the fact that you just mentioned those languages makes them notable :D 00:53:31 I'd say P'' is not an esolang. 00:53:43 Aardwolf: Those are his ;) 00:53:52 :-P 00:54:09 Braincopter isn't :D 00:54:31 no, being mentioned in #esoteric as an example of a nonnotable language does not make an esolang notable 00:54:57 agreed 00:55:00 and I'm not saying those were not all cool ideas 00:55:10 but nobody has really explored them (yet) 00:55:15 so they're not history 00:55:20 by the way, I suppose that if I'd suggest an esolang forum, you'd say the talk pages are the forum, right? 00:55:37 I'd prefer if people went back to using the esolang mailing list 00:55:56 however, given that nobody seems to want to do that, a forum might be an okay substitute 00:56:16 the talk pages are not ideal anyway 00:56:34 forums take a lot of bandwidth tho 00:56:38 they are ideal for talking about the wiki itself, directly, but not for talking about the subject matter 00:56:54 the nice thing about a web forum is that people can browse it without being members 00:57:09 and without mail client 00:57:09 Unlike a mailing list archive :P 00:57:14 Unlike a mailing list archive :P 00:57:28 mailing list archive are seldom as easy to browse 00:57:36 you can "browse" the archives at esoteric.sange.fi, but they are pretty raw 00:57:52 threads and subforums are very nice to have 00:57:52 has google archived it? 00:57:58 I think so 00:58:07 on forums spam can be deleted 00:58:17 on a newsgroup on the other hand... 00:59:47 about the bandwidth: I don't think that will be a problem in this case 01:01:09 graue: is the wiki using much bandwidth? 01:01:36 I haven't been monitoring it, but probably not 01:02:03 people grabbing the 1.7 MB backup daily might be using a lot of bandwidth 01:02:06 other than that, it should be fine 01:02:35 yeah. I'm nice and only grabs it once a week ;) 01:05:09 E!bf http://kidsquid.com/pumpkin.b 01:05:11 ,_ .-. 01:05:13 \ `\/ '` 01:05:15 _.--"| |"--._ 01:05:16 .' ' '`--`' ' '. 01:05:18 / ' /\ /\ ' \ 01:05:20 ; ' /o_\ /o_\ ' ; 01:05:21 | . . /\ : . | 01:05:23 ; . /\ .'--'. /\ . ; 01:05:25 \ .\ \/\/\/\/ /. / 01:05:26 '._:\_/\__/\_/._.' 01:05:28 `'--'--'--'` 01:05:40 lsl 01:05:43 lol rather 01:11:22 nice :) 01:11:47 if P'' is an esolang, then so is the lambda calculus 01:12:04 exactly 01:12:20 and the UTM etc... 01:22:56 they both belong in a timeline either way 01:23:12 good point 01:25:11 how should we structure the timeline article? 01:25:19 a subheading for each year? 01:25:34 sure 01:25:45 by subheading you mean ==subheading==? 01:25:48 yeah 01:25:56 probably a better word for it 01:26:39 I guess a lot of years will be pretty much empty 01:27:00 well, don't include headings for those then 01:27:12 I thought you meant a subheading for each year in which something actually happened 01:27:31 well, yeah. that's the way to do it I guess 01:28:28 so should I set up an esolang forum? 01:28:42 could be worth a try 01:28:55 will do then 01:29:45 I think stuff like the works in progress articles in the wiki would be better to have in a forum, and not in the wiki 01:30:42 yes! 01:30:56 I agree 10000000000% 01:31:03 wow. that much? 01:31:04 That's a lot of percent :P 01:34:57 yeah, it allows everyone else in here to agree 0% while the average agreement level remains above 100% 01:36:29 not if someone agrees a negative percentage 01:37:40 well, then I'll just agree NaN% and mess everything up and we'll have to do a recount 01:38:02 anyone feel like making a favicon.ico file out of the three-limes logo? 01:47:41 sure. I can do that 01:49:14 http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/wiki.ico 01:49:51 -!- duerig has joined. 01:53:52 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Ik zen der is mee weg"). 02:08:40 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ 02:10:08 Nifty. 02:10:13 Somebody should make a thread. 02:10:19 maybe it can be you! 02:10:24 who does this, I mean 02:11:33 The only thread topics I can think of off hand are boring, "Welcome to the forum!", or dumb, "First Post!", or self-serving "Isn't Rail cool!?!?". Hahaha. So it'd better be somebody else. 02:13:11 okay then 02:20:16 I started a timeline, although it is very sketchy and incomplete 02:21:16 I can't type the letters with accents in "Bohm" and "Muller", so someone will have to fix that for me 02:25:09 -!- Arrogant has joined. 02:25:11 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 02:28:14 graue: btw, your C-like language looks interesting (that was yours, wasn't it?) 02:28:31 yes, it was 02:28:51 I have not had time to learn how to use lex and yacc in order to implement it 02:29:35 ehh, they're overrated anyway :) recursive descent parsing is easy enough to do by hand 02:30:22 you could add a third type, "truth-value", just to make things a royal mess 02:31:21 how is that different from boolean? 02:32:07 how is 'bit' different from boolean? other than you have imposed arbitrary restrictions on its usage? 02:32:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_value 02:32:16 well, how would the arbitrary restrictions differ? 02:32:20 you could insist they only appear in truth-tables, or something similar 02:32:54 seems a little non-orthogonal to me 02:33:10 indeed :) 02:33:57 the bit-vs-bool distinction is based on arguments raised in regards to an actual programming language (D) 02:34:18 some people argued that D should have bools in addition to just bits, and that bits should allow arithmetic and bools logical operations, but not vice-versa 02:50:24 I agree with that argument. Think of the conversions. Often you'll want to convert an int to a bool meaning 0 is false and anything else is true. 02:50:44 Whereas if you want to convert an int to some small bitfield (like 1), you'll want to convert it mod 2. 02:52:06 What is the c-like language called, btw? 02:52:44 "bitlang", temporarily 02:53:02 http://www.voxelperfect.net:3875/esolang/bitlang.txt 02:53:17 Ack. Whyfor evil port number? 02:54:58 what's so "evil" about it? 02:55:25 Well, I have to view the page using lynx 'cuz I don't want to make a special exception in my firewall for one webpage. 02:55:36 Usually, websites use port 80. or 443 if they are going over SSL. 02:55:48 Its not 'evil', exactly. Just odd. 02:55:50 you must have to make a lot of exceptions... nyud.net is 8090, lots of pages are 8000 and 8080 02:55:57 And a bit inconvenient. :) 02:56:06 in any event, that's my computer and the ISP filters port 80 02:56:07 I've never been to nyud.net. 02:56:10 Oh. 02:56:11 Ack. 02:56:13 That sucks. 02:56:24 I see why then. 02:56:48 I was just wondering why. 02:58:33 A pity about your ISP. 02:58:38 This looks like a nifty language. 02:58:43 cpressey, maybe you have some ideas for enhancing this: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Timeline_of_esoteric_programming_languages 03:01:04 what year was Piet made in? 03:01:15 (clearly 2002 or earlier, since it was in the 2002 MIT mystery hunt thing) 03:02:03 Graue, Why disallow '==' for bools? It is just 'if and only if' which makes sense in the context of bools. Did I miss something? 03:04:14 == is "1 if both arguments are equal, 0 otherwise" 03:04:41 Which is identical to the truth table for 'if and only if'. 03:05:20 A B A <=> B (if and only if): 03:05:22 for a bool, you should never do "== 1" or "== 0", since it's redundant, or in the second case, !() should be used 03:05:30 so I intended to disallow that 03:05:31 t t t 03:05:35 t f f 03:05:41 f t f 03:05:48 f f t 03:05:55 if you want a == b, where a and b are bools, you can do if ((a & b) || (!a & !b)) 03:06:04 er, substitute | for || there 03:06:09 Hmm. 03:06:17 So no exlusive or either. 03:06:23 I see. 03:06:47 or you can do if (bit2bool(bool2bit(a) + bool2bit(b))) 03:07:16 that would be equivalent to if (!(a == b)) 03:07:25 How about an overloaded b2b for that ;) :P 03:08:51 there are no built-in functions except getchar() and putchar() 03:09:48 Wait, can there be bool arrays? 03:10:09 yes 03:11:32 Hmmm... One problem here is that many bit-arithmetic things will be quite a bit harder. Many involve bizarre combinations of addition, equality, and other logic operators. 03:11:36 graue: the timeline article is nice 03:11:51 kipple: great! it is missing Piet though because I don't have the year of creation for that 03:12:13 yeah. I remember having wondered about that myself 03:12:20 guess we could ask DMM 03:12:41 I'm wondering about this one though: "Kipple is invented, and turns out to be the first esolang to rise to prominence in which the use of stacks is a defining characteristic." 03:12:45 is that true? 03:12:52 maybe 03:12:57 seems to me there are tons of stack-based languages 03:13:05 anyone aware of a counterexample is encouraged to edit the page 03:13:13 Does kipple predate Befunge? Befunge is the earliest one that comes to mind with that. 03:13:16 Befunge uses stacks of course, but it's known for the 2D, not for the stacks 03:13:21 Er stacks. 03:13:22 Ah. 03:13:23 Haha 03:13:27 Kipple came 10 years later 03:13:44 Hmm. Does the HP RPN language count as an esolang? 03:13:56 I remember playing around with that a bit on my graphics calculator a few years ago. 03:13:58 if it was invented for serious use, it doesn't count 03:14:15 Ok. I suppose it doesn't count then. 03:14:31 the intent is an important thing; otherwise, APL might count as an esoteric language 03:14:42 Hahaha. Granted. 03:14:56 by the dictionary meaning of 'esoteric', it is one 03:17:41 APL, FORTH, the languages in esolang, and a turing machine are all in the same category in my mind. The category of languages that I would only ever program in for fun. But you are correct that the creator's intention is the only way to have anything like an objective definition. 03:19:09 cpressey, you still live? 03:20:25 When I read the truth value article on wikipedia, I remembered this recent daily WTF entry which was entertaining: http://thedailywtf.com/forums/47844/ShowPost.aspx 03:22:25 Ah 03:22:35 black, white, or apple 03:22:58 graue, I like your language. The only suggestion I'd make to improve it is to allow foreach to iterate over multiple arrays simultaneously. You'll be able to make sure that the cardinality of the various arrays are equal. 03:26:54 -!- graue has set topic: #esoteric,. 03:27:03 Good to know. 03:27:15 >_O 03:27:20 Lets discuss the metaphysical significance of #esoteric. 03:27:27 -!- graue has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - falsebot: F!, EgoBot: !help - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang. 03:27:34 that's better 03:28:20 -!- graue has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:30:53 Let's change the order to confuse him. 03:31:42 Agreed. 03:31:59 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - falsebot: F!, EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ -logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric. 03:32:11 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - falsebot: F!, EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric. 03:33:22 Good work. 03:33:28 Thank you, I try. 03:33:30 I wonder if he will notice. 03:33:34 Probably not :P 03:33:42 Unless he reads the logs. 03:33:46 Quick! Tamper! 03:33:50 Which he does :P 03:34:08 :) 03:35:11 Did you read graue's bitlang document? 03:35:23 Yeah 03:35:49 What would you think about a variant like this: 03:35:57 Actually, that article reminds me of Haskell. 03:36:08 You can make arbitrary lists of stuff equal to other arbitrary lists of stuff. 03:36:11 Maybe type: Just a, Nothing. 03:37:00 Like if you wanted to implement bitwise-or as in C, you'd have function body that looked like: 03:37:21 return a[0-7] | b[0-7]; 03:37:33 Which would or each one of the lists and return a bitarray of the results. 03:38:30 Or if you took four arguments and wanted to return a bit-array of the first two or-ed together with the second two, you could do something like: 03:38:48 return (a, b) | (c, d); 03:38:52 Maybe not that syntax. 03:38:57 But do you get the idea? 03:39:24 Essentially you could make bitarrays of stuff arbitrarily in expressions. 03:49:25 Aaargh! 03:49:54 My paper got rejected! No trip to Barcelona for me. :( 03:59:23 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:14:02 -!- marcan_ has joined. 04:16:50 -!- marcan has quit (Success). 04:36:01 -!- marcan_ has quit (Network is unreachable). 05:15:50 !bf +++++++++++[>++++++>+<<-]>+.>-[.[-],] 05:19:17 C 05:19:26 ...? 05:19:38 Was that the desired result? 05:23:41 C 05:23:42 Ha 05:25:52 I don't know 05:26:02 I don't even remember what it was supposed to be 05:26:46 I just recently started up "The Anti-Smoker Forums" 8-D 05:27:11 An addendum to my already-existing "treat smokers like scum" site. 05:27:21 First time I've ever been a moderator on any forum XD 05:28:28 treat smokers like scum? 05:28:30 sounds like a plan 05:28:43 http://smk.codu.org/ 05:29:05 I figure, if society treated smokers like subhumans rather than victims, there would be a lot more pressure to stop smoking. 05:29:28 With society treating smokers as victims, even if smoking isn't viewed as "cool" it will still be done. 05:31:21 perhaps we should treat C++ programmers like scum, too 05:31:37 otherwise, even if programming C++ isn't viewed as "cool" it will still be done 05:31:38 hell, why not treat everybody like scum 05:31:50 why draw a line? 05:32:10 lol 05:32:34 I advocate for treating smokers like scum because they hurt everybody around them. They might as well just have a knife and stab everybody in the throat as they walk by. 05:32:45 Robdgreat: <3 05:33:41 I think smokers should be crucified alongside busy highways 05:33:48 E!quit 05:33:49 -!- EsoBot has quit ("requested by calamari"). 05:34:59 well, I understand the linux boot / shutdown process slightly better now :) 05:35:00 everybody has something about them that offends somebody else 05:35:09 calamari: El teh w00t, init 0 ! 05:35:18 how about all of humanity just commit mass suicide 05:35:32 that'll solve the whole problem 05:35:46 Awesome! 05:35:55 Robdgreat: sounds good.. you first ;) 05:36:09 I was gonna say you first 05:36:19 but didn't want to be a hateful jackass ;) 05:36:20 GregorR: how about treating drivers like scum? 05:36:27 well, you're the leader of the mass-suicide movement, so it's only fitting 05:36:29 you're quite likely to be killed by a driver, you know 05:36:35 even if you're only a pedestrian 05:36:41 I treat bad drivers like scum. 05:36:47 Not all drivers kill people. 05:36:48 * calamari is a bad driver 05:36:53 * calamari is scum :( 05:36:57 not all bad drivers kill people 05:37:02 not all smokers kill people, either 05:37:09 It has nothing to do with killing. 05:37:11 It has to do with hurting. 05:37:18 ALL smokers hurt people. 05:37:27 Because people who don't smoke can't breathe smoke. 05:37:29 duerig: i cut in and out randomly. i find it enhances my air of mystery. 05:37:43 i can't breath car exhaust, either 05:37:53 so ban driving! 05:37:58 down with drivers 05:38:05 they're destroying us all 05:38:09 There's a usefulness-vs-damage-to-society ratio here ... 05:38:28 and by that 05:38:29 The average modern car has very little exhaust, less than a smoker even *hahahah* 05:38:43 GregorR: drivers destroy the environment. This will ultimately lead to death of all life on Earth. "Very little" adds up. 05:38:49 you mean a "I-engage-in-that-behavior-so-it-gets-a-pass" ratio 05:38:57 modern car exhaust smells a lot worse to me than old car 05:38:59 I don't drive. 05:39:23 probably because it isn't as masked with gasoline fumes :) 05:39:27 So "I-don't-engage-in-that-behavior-but-its-clearly-necessary-for-modern-society-to-survive-as-is" 05:39:42 wish I didn't have to drive 05:39:59 I knew somebody who wouldn't drive.. they were also a vegan... are you a vegan by chance? lol 05:40:36 No. 05:40:43 GregorR: and yes, what about meat eaters? Shouldn't we treat them like scum? And people who perform abortions? 05:40:54 I'm a level five vegan. I don't eat anything that casts a shadow 05:41:00 And what about Americans? 05:41:05 lol 05:41:22 shouldn't we treat them like scum? They live in a country that fucks up other countries. 05:41:25 Americans are scum 05:41:35 And they made a conscious choice to stay in it :) 05:41:35 as I see it, if we werent' meant to eat animals, they wouldn't be made of meat 05:41:41 even we know that :) 05:41:43 -_- 05:41:54 These are the most ludicrous arguments I've ever heard. 05:42:12 lament: nah, I didn't vote for W 05:42:20 calamari: irrelevant! 05:42:34 you support whoever's elected by staying in the country :) 05:42:38 if there were a more free country somewhere, I'd move there 05:42:55 as screwed up as America is, it's still on top 05:43:04 "free" is a fairly nebulous term, but by the most popular definitions, america's nowhere nearly the "most free" 05:43:06 clearly, the mere desire to leave the country will get you elsewhere 05:43:23 No money required 8-D 05:43:27 of course not 05:43:30 Or years of adjustment either. 05:43:59 GregorR: Nobody said it's easy. 05:44:03 GregorR: quitting smoking isn't easy, either. 05:44:12 STARTING smoking is a choice. 05:44:24 You don't decide what country you're born in. 05:44:47 I'ts not Xs fault that X is an American, but it is Xs fault that X is a smoker. 05:44:52 have you ever tried smoking? 05:45:00 No, I'm not that stupid. 05:45:04 wow 05:45:07 i am impressed 05:45:10 lament: if Gregor can go through life without ever having made a bad decision, so can anybody. 05:45:23 There are bad decisions, and then there's smoking. 05:45:25 * calamari has never smoked either 05:45:27 It's a whole other plane of bad decisions. 05:45:33 ah what the hell ever 05:45:43 It's like saying "Oh, I see, Gregor hasn't killed somebody, he thinks he's some kind of saint' 05:45:50 even my health nut friend who religiously refuses weed has tried smoking :) 05:45:52 in america, you are free to smoke! 05:46:11 In America, you ought to be free to breathe. 05:46:14 I never hung around people that smoked and my parents didn't smoke 05:46:23 I think the right to breathe preempts the "right" to smoke. 05:46:24 the 2nd hand smoke gives me a headache 05:46:31 so I never had the desire 05:46:37 i have a tail because of second hand smoke 05:46:39 GregorR: what about someone who smokes on their own time in their own basement? 05:46:54 cpressey: he won't see them doing that, so he won't treat them like scum 05:46:57 it's only fair 05:47:07 cpressey: I hope they never have a family. 05:47:19 i still like my idea. 05:47:24 I can't really actively treat them like scum since I don't know whether they're a smoker or not XD 05:47:27 Treat C++ programmers like scum. 05:47:31 Innocent 'til proven guilty. 05:47:33 After all, they made a choice to use C++. 05:47:37 lament: I agree. 05:47:41 yeah, they could have used Java 05:47:48 and C++ kills babies 05:47:48 ... 05:47:57 Java consumes souls 05:48:03 Worse than C++ 05:48:10 And now you have exposed the problem with that scenario ;) 05:48:13 My right to use Python preempts others' "right" to use C++ 05:48:27 lament: My using C++ does not prevent you from using Python. 05:48:47 GregorR: no, but when you're using C++ i get sick of second-hand C++ poisoning. 05:48:55 s/of/by 05:49:00 Now, if only there was such a thing you would have a legitimate point. 05:49:34 Getting C++ code to compile on various platforms is such a disgusting hassle 05:50:00 how about treating drummers like scum 05:50:10 they play so LOUDLY 05:50:16 Yeah, fuck drummers. 05:50:20 The kind who stay up 'til 1AM and drum loudly, yeah, I agree. 05:50:20 They drown out the rest of the band. 05:50:25 Ever been to a jam? 05:50:33 It's just the drummer. 05:50:44 The guitarist is there, but you really can't tell. 05:50:48 they're worse than smokers 05:51:06 Yes! Down with drummers! 05:51:07 many people die of second-hand drumming 05:51:31 it's not pretty, either, as their heads explode 05:51:54 at least smoking doesn't kill you instantly. 05:51:57 Drumming might. 05:55:59 drummers -> drum machines -> trance... so drummers are good 05:57:32 * calamari got his .NET Windows Forms in a Nutshell.. maybe I can avoid using Visual Studio a little longer now 06:18:13 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 06:36:10 in support of the "Java consumes souls" theory... 06:36:12 http://www.picocontainer.org/ 06:36:37 just try reading some of the sentences there. you'll see. 07:03:23 -!- Arrogant has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- State of the art IRC"). 07:30:07 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - blog: http://esoteric.blogssuck.com/ - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - mailing list: http://www.deadmailinglists.com/e/es/eso/esot/esoteric_programming - falsebot: F!, EgoBot: !help - don't !list in here, and no pr0n except for ASCII art (which is actually encouraged) - wiki: http://esolangs.org/w. 07:30:16 Oh darn XD 07:31:46 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - falsebot: F!, EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric. 07:40:36 -!- duerig has left (?). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:22:39 -!- calamari has joined. 08:51:19 -!- calamari has quit ("testing"). 08:59:36 -!- calamari has joined. 09:26:20 -!- lutzhy has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 09:26:24 -!- klutzh has joined. 09:39:55 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 09:52:49 -!- klutzh has changed nick to lutzhy. 12:42:46 -!- kipple has joined. 14:52:50 -!- mtve has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:00:16 -!- mtve has joined. 17:23:03 -!- jix has joined. 17:43:15 lament: What's your opinion on C programmers BTW? 18:42:07 hi 18:42:20 GregorR: ah, those are merely misguided :) 18:42:27 PYTHON IS WRITTEN IN C 18:42:28 WTF 18:42:31 YOU HYPOCRITE 18:42:52 >_O 18:42:58 GregorR: that's the dumbest argument ever, and an esoteric programmer shouldnt use that even as a joke 18:43:07 im tired of people saying that :( 18:43:31 Tell me how it's an invalid argument? Python wouldn't even exist without lower level languages (IE C) 18:44:09 GregorR: the most popular implementation of Python happens to be written in C. I couldn't care less. 18:44:47 So the people who wrote Python were misguided? 18:47:14 no 18:47:21 C was a good choice. 18:47:24 however 18:47:31 now that python is available... :) 18:48:05 My I just say that language advocacy is silly in general? 18:48:47 I agree 18:48:50 it is :) 18:48:52 >_> 18:48:54 <_< 18:49:00 OMG C++ ROX0RZ ROFL ROFL! 18:49:05 I said it louder therefore I'm right. 18:49:15 :P 18:50:07 damn 18:50:25 im stuck here with qwerty and no means to change the layout 18:50:28 Also, OMG FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER >>> JESUS LOL! 18:50:30 its a fucking pain 18:50:39 * GregorR uses Dvorak 8-D 18:50:46 even typing "qwerty" is easier on dvorak :( 18:50:52 Heheh 18:51:05 Why can't you change it? 18:51:11 i dont know how 18:51:18 i used to know this at some point 18:51:28 im on linux, with no X 18:51:36 Ahhh 18:51:54 Admittedly, neither do I, there... 18:53:56 there IS a way to do that 18:54:05 blah 19:02:41 -!- CXI has joined. 20:15:30 -!- ihope has joined. 20:16:09 I just thought up a language called "Foobar and Foobaz and Barbaz, oh my!" 20:17:08 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 20:23:02 -!- jix has joined. 20:24:59 interesting name :) 20:36:30 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:37:09 -!- ihope has joined. 20:41:53 !help 20:43:32 EgoBot's not working, it seems. 20:43:54 !help 20:44:24 help ps kill i eof flush show ls 20:44:26 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} glass glypho kipple lazyk malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01 20:45:50 Hmm. 20:46:24 help ps kill i eof flush show ls 20:46:26 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} glass glypho kipple lazyk malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01 20:55:02 !ps 20:55:04 No repeats. 20:55:10 Ack. 20:55:19 !input zonkmeister\n 20:55:37 !input 1 zonkmeister\n 20:55:39 :-) 20:57:50 -!- Keymaker has joined. 20:57:58 hello world 20:58:13 kipple: have you seen some norwegian movie called "villmark"? 20:58:34 (i hope i remember the name correct) 20:58:58 it's something horror movie, and really scary in my opinion. i just saw it 21:13:06 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:14:03 -!- ihope has joined. 21:17:21 -!- ihope has quit (Client Quit). 21:28:41 -!- Taliesin41 has joined. 21:28:56 -!- Taliesin41 has changed nick to Kevin. 21:29:10 -!- Kevin has changed nick to K. 21:29:45 -!- K has changed nick to Kevin. 21:30:09 why are all nicks already owned? 21:30:20 -!- Kevin has changed nick to KevinN. 21:31:40 Heheh 21:33:02 hm... your nick somehow reminds me of my own... ^_^ 21:33:21 Originality is not my strong suit in nick selection :P 21:33:54 ^_^ at least one knows your real name within an instant... ;) 21:34:39 ANYWAY 21:34:42 Welcome to #esoteric! 21:34:45 yeah 21:34:50 thanks... :) 21:35:19 thought I should have a look after visiting esolangs.org ... 21:36:07 Please, introduce yourself by filling out this 15-question survey. The answers don't need to be any longer than 10pages/ea, so it should only take you a few hours. 21:36:09 :P 21:36:17 how did you find out esolangs.org? 21:36:19 :) 21:36:27 google... ;) 21:36:37 ah 21:36:47 wanted to see if someone knows my language... ^_^ 21:36:52 well... someone does... 21:36:57 what it is? 21:37:30 KevinN: are you the AlPhAbEt(?) guy? 21:37:40 jupp... 21:37:47 ah 21:37:48 cool 21:37:55 it seems like a nice language 21:38:22 yes... and inspired by a phonecall with an austrian... ^_^ 21:38:33 :) 21:39:41 by the way... where is esolangs from? or better: where is the founder from? 21:39:58 graue runs the wiki and file archive 21:40:04 wooby owns the domain 21:41:03 oh and the word esolang is short for esoteric programming language and afaik the name is from cpressey 21:42:13 I saw that my description was translated to English... really fascinating... 21:42:22 I'm still looking for it 21:43:03 KevinN: yeah there was a stub for a long time and one day i decided to translate it checked the wiki and WHAM .. it was allready translated 21:43:27 looking for what, robdgreat? 21:44:20 he doesn't know yet, he's still looking for it :) 21:44:30 ^_^ 21:44:42 nm 21:47:43 g'night 21:47:49 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:48:00 -!- calamari has joined. 21:48:31 hoi calamari... 22:02:25 hi Kevin, and welcome :) 22:02:39 (and hi to you other guys too) 22:02:55 Hi kipple! 22:02:56 hi kipple 22:02:57 :P 22:03:06 kipple, saw that my guestion about a movie? 22:03:16 Keymaker: yes, I've seen the movie and you remember the name correctly 22:03:21 cool 22:03:27 it was quite good i think 22:03:30 it was OK, but I'm not much of a horror fan 22:03:35 me neither 22:03:42 i hardly managed to watch it! 22:03:49 I have a problem finding them scary, so they kind of misses the point for me 22:04:02 uh, that's probably their point :) 22:04:26 no, I mean my problem is that I generally DON'T find them scary :) 22:04:30 ho 22:04:33 *oh 22:04:35 lol 22:05:00 it was visually very good, the nature 22:05:43 norwegian movies i've seen this far have been good 22:05:57 ok. you can't have seen many then :) 22:06:38 three! 22:06:49 (or possibly four) :) 22:07:10 which ones? (if you remember their titles) 22:07:12 hi Kevin 22:07:35 the one before this was Ni albni, that was very good too 22:07:41 Kevin = jix? 22:07:49 nope 22:07:55 hehe okay 22:07:57 :) 22:08:03 keymaker: what? never heard of it... and not a norwegian name either 22:08:29 oops, sorry! 22:08:30 lecture was about turing machines today 22:08:34 it's icelandish! 22:08:56 ah. well that's an esoteric language all right ;) 22:09:00 i remembered wrong country, sorry :) 22:09:06 yeah 22:09:15 so, any interesting calamari? 22:09:17 the lecture 22:09:53 Keymaker: one thing I didn't know.. if you move left at the edge of the tape, it stays in the leftmost cell, without error (vs BF) 22:10:21 ah 22:10:30 didn't know that either 22:11:09 eof is handled by adding an "empty" symbol 22:11:30 maybe a base 257 bf variant? hehe 22:12:15 :) 22:22:13 *cough* still there? ^_^ 22:22:22 (talking about turing...) 22:22:31 We tend to disappear and reappear at random in #esoteric. 22:22:37 hehe, yeah 22:22:40 :) 22:22:56 and sometimes there's the time delay; an answer to a question appears two days late 22:23:16 ..and confuses one for a while.. 22:23:22 ^_^ 22:24:11 is a language turing-complete when I'm able to implement a turing-machine? 22:24:18 you? 22:24:29 oops 22:24:43 huh? 22:24:44 i didn't think; i thought there was supposed to read "it is" 22:24:55 but then realized that'd be rather strange 22:25:15 (like, "it is" instead of "I'm") 22:25:26 Keymaker: how about "...in it?" 22:25:26 but i realize now what you meant 22:25:32 ^_^ 22:25:34 :) 22:25:38 but to answer; yes 22:25:42 -!- marcan has joined. 22:25:47 (i think) 22:25:59 cewl... :) 22:26:30 but the usual way is to make a brainfuck interpreter :) 22:26:34 however, is there any specification how a "turing-machine" has to work... 22:26:47 or bitchanger if that's easier 22:26:59 i once saw something like ... 22:27:31 * calamari tries to remember what he heard in class today 22:27:44 unbounded memory tape 22:27:55 I know... that already works... 22:28:01 ...one-dimensional... 22:28:06 since start state, single accept state single rejecting state 22:28:06 (though) 22:28:15 since->single 22:29:12 *hm* 22:33:10 I just don't get it... how is one to work with only the symbols "< } [ ]" 22:33:28 To do a +, you do <}, to do a >, you do }<} 22:34:13 don't know brainfuck good enough to know what >, is... 22:34:25 or +, 22:34:51 (I mean, I don't know the dot and the comma) 22:35:07 KevinN: bf has a memory array (the tape).. > and < move the head across the tape left or right one memory cell 22:35:18 err that should have been right or left 22:35:49 ah... dot is output and , is input... 22:35:58 . means output char (so 65 will output 'A'), , means input char (cell = char ascii value) 22:36:41 bitchanger only handles one bit cells (rather than 8 bit).. so + and - become identical 22:37:32 so I combine them into @ as an intermediate step 22:37:44 you could do @@ and the cell would be unchanged 22:38:24 < is the same as bf < 22:39:06 and } is a > and additional a @ 22:39:17 yes 22:39:25 gotta go.. 22:39:29 cya Keymaker 22:39:30 nite! 22:39:34 bye 22:39:37 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 22:39:57 and what are the brackets for? [ and ] 22:40:15 KevinN: a while loop 22:40:41 oh my goddess... 22:40:56 essentially while(cell) { ... } 22:41:44 where cell is the value of the current cell 22:41:48 hehehe 22:42:11 so... byebye bitchanger-interpreter... ~.~ 22:42:16 there wasn't originally [] in BitChanger, but that was an error so I had to add it back in 22:43:12 how am I to keep the whole source in-memory...? 22:43:31 ? 22:43:54 I'm just thinking of how to implement bitchanger... 22:44:35 those while-loops are breaking my neck... 22:45:17 they can be thought of different ways 22:45:28 and it is (of course) possible to do thinks like this: [ [ ] ] 22:45:31 isn't it? 22:46:13 for example: test: if (cell) goto label; ... goto test; label: 22:46:15 sure 22:46:28 I don't have any goto... ^_^ 22:46:29 oops 22:46:34 for example: test: if (!cell) goto label; ... goto test; label: 22:46:37 :) 22:46:47 but... hm... let me think.... 22:47:06 just mentioning that it doesn't need to be a while 22:47:22 the main problem is keeping the sourcecode in-memory... (since my memory is used for the tape) 22:47:52 it doesn't need to be a while? 22:48:31 KevinN: maybe I'm being confusing.. that if goto stuff is equivalent to a while 22:48:42 just breaking it down a bit 22:49:18 I don't know what language you're trying to implement this in.. so just giving options :) 22:49:27 ah... well... still got no goto, though... ^_^ 22:49:30 hehe 22:49:34 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/AlPhAbEt 22:51:41 however.... 22:52:04 we have a tape that has a beginning? 22:52:28 I need to get going.. sorry :) 22:52:30 bbl 22:52:32 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 22:52:53 really tricky that is... 22:55:42 think i've got an idea know... 22:55:55 -!- lindi- has left (?). 22:56:04 (brain)f*ck... so late already... 22:56:14 have ter go... 23:21:22 -!- KevinN has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2005-11-02: 01:42:06 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:47:28 -!- kipple has joined. 03:19:12 It's amazing how different the Freenode culture is from the rest of the IRC universe. 03:19:45 Explain that to me 03:19:59 Because you're not the first I've seen make that observation 03:20:11 Well for one, they're never out to burn out your eyes in Freenode. 03:20:18 That color combo wasn't as bad as I intended ... 03:20:22 Well for one, they're never out to burn out your eyes in Freenode. 03:20:31 Well for one, they're never out to burn out your eyes in Freenode. 03:20:33 oh fuck 03:20:34 There we go. 03:20:36 you are teh evil 03:20:46 In fact, colors on freenode are rare. 03:20:56 which is just fine 03:20:58 Two, though most people don't use grammar, "u" and "r", etc are quite rare. 03:21:08 I LOVE that 03:22:09 And overall, it just has some sort of nonquantifiable difference. 03:27:59 $t0p wh1n1ng n00bz0rz!!!! fr33N00B iz teh g4y3zt 03:28:09 ;-) 03:28:39 Wonderful. 03:29:23 now if you only add leet to egobot.... 03:30:11 um, l33t I mean... 03:30:58 Yes, a language with networking, that sounds genius. 03:31:17 hehe. 03:31:50 hmm. l33t is not in the normal language list nor the joke list (in the wiki) 03:32:04 which one is appropriate, I wonder 03:44:09 Gregor, what was that code server you're on, again? 03:44:14 my dev server is having issues :/ 03:45:40 ...? 03:45:52 I asked you about it shortly after first coming in here. 03:46:00 some hosting account with code in the name 03:46:07 codu? 03:46:18 I think it had code in the name. wasn't codu 03:46:25 To the logs! 03:46:28 ah yes 03:49:11 I'll find it. question: what's the simplest way to clear a file in *nix, while not actually deleting it 03:49:50 cat /dev/null > filename ? 03:50:43 ok 03:50:44 thanks 03:51:03 it was a suggestion, there could be easier ways... 03:51:11 that's easy enough 03:51:25 a massive log file put me over quota. 03:51:37 So why didn't you want to actually delete it? 03:52:00 I wanted to know how to clear it for future reference, if nothing else 03:52:10 Mmm 03:52:22 Yeah, cat /dev/null > it is a pretty effective way. 03:53:29 But awesome rox0r C users just write this program: int main(int argc, char **argv) { int i; FILE *fl; for (i = 1; argv[i]; i++) { fl = fopen(argv[i], "w"); if (fl) fclose(fl); } return 0; } 03:55:15 yes. 03:56:17 Oh wait, I just remembered that there's a truncate syscall :P 03:56:24 what a lot of code to do something so simple. here is a nice brainfuck program to do it: . (just run bf clearfile.b > filename) 03:57:00 hmm, no that wouldn't make it completely empty. forget about that 03:57:04 int main(int argc, char **argv) { int i; for (i = 1; argv[i]; i++) truncate(argv[i], 0); } 04:56:53 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:15:23 -!- calamari has joined. 05:56:59 open(argv[i], O_WRONLY | O_TRUNC) would be a lot more impressive than some puny fopen(). Although there is that truncate. 05:58:51 And to abuse: main(c,v)char*v;{while(++v)truncate(*v);} 05:59:05 Hey yeah XD 06:25:05 Proof that Gregor has too much free time: I just made a minute-long ASCII-art pr0n. 06:26:09 We didn't need proof. 06:26:11 ;) 07:17:43 Woah, #asciipr0n was not a good place to join XD 07:46:20 did it get you too excited? 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:22:03 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:58:46 -!- jix has joined. 14:14:52 -!- kipple has joined. 16:02:02 -!- nooga has joined. 16:02:05 hi 16:12:21 ;p 16:34:08 i wonder when i'll finally meet tokigun ;p 16:41:26 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving"). 17:36:46 -!- mtve has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:32:14 -!- mtve has joined. 19:19:20 -!- calamari has joined. 19:19:53 calamari: No, it did not get me "too excited", it was just the pocket of usual-IRC-world in Freenode. 19:20:09 hehe 19:20:10 drew0wat d o u have 19:20:11 GregorRWhat do you mean? 19:20:13 drew0hard pumpin house or hard house 19:20:15 GregorRUmmmmm ............. neither? I don't even know what you're referring to ....... 19:20:16 drew0k 19:20:17 drew0mp3? 19:20:19 GregorR.................................. why? 19:20:21 drew0plzx 19:20:22 GregorRWell, no, I don't actually, I don't really listen to much music other than the radio, but I'm confused as per when it was suggested that I would send some sort of music or something ... 19:20:24 drew0nerd 19:20:25 GregorROK *shrugs* 19:22:37 I'm proud of my ASCII pr0n, but that encounter was just scary XD 19:23:18 bah, hard house sux 19:23:49 At the time I didn't even realize that by "house" he meant the musical style. 19:24:12 drew0u gonna hax me or wat bra 19:24:13 drew0???? 19:24:16 GregorR..............................? 19:24:17 [ERROR]No match for “br”. 19:24:18 drew0i c 19:24:20 GregorRis now quite confused. 19:24:21 drew0u got some house 2 trade bra? 19:24:23 drew0??????? 19:24:24 GregorRI'm trying to decipher that .... and failing ... 19:24:25 * calamari runs "apt-get install libc6" not something you can do every day :) 19:24:26 drew0house 19:24:28 drew0plz 19:24:29 GregorRHouse? 19:24:31 drew0k 19:24:33 drew0send 19:24:34 drew0send 19:24:36 drew0send 19:24:37 drew0send 19:24:40 GregorRHow? DCC, FTP, what? 19:24:46 lol 19:24:48 Awesome. 19:25:41 finally got all my prblems worked out.. so now I can finally build a real system 19:25:49 how long did that take 19:26:17 seems like I've been messing with it for more than a week 19:26:22 lol 19:26:32 * GregorR leaves for class - see y'all later. 19:26:38 cya GregorR 19:32:40 lol, it requires me to run a perl script to complete the install 19:51:44 -!- Sgep has joined. 20:09:27 -!- duerig has joined. 20:15:15 "There you have it folks, all Microsoft ever wanted was love. That and billions and billions of dollars." -Wes Borg 20:16:25 well, in that respect they are not exactly alone... 20:16:44 True. 20:17:15 Its just a funny line. :) 20:36:06 -!- duerig has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:13:14 yay, now I have libc6, installing coreutils :) 21:14:05 my hacked version of dpkg doesn't omplain as much as the original ;) 21:14:31 ahh that was fast.. now to install the real dpkg 21:24:18 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:38:22 * calamari notes that packages dependency lists are incomplete, especially where scripts are concerned 21:45:03 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:05:09 there, finalyl dug myself out.. packages seem to be installing without any complaints now 22:39:04 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 22:49:30 *yaaaaaaaaaaawn* 23:16:33 -!- graue has joined. 23:24:32 hi graue 23:24:45 I have been learning m4, the UNIX macro language, lately 23:24:56 it is in a class of languages that are pretty esoteric but still useful 23:24:58 hehe still don't have the official /etc/inittab.. not sure what package it's in 23:25:09 there should be more languages like that 23:25:59 too many esolangs are still following the old "hard to program in, easy to implement" formula, but since Brainfuck there has been little true innovation there 23:26:20 well 23:26:26 the language also has to be easy to learn 23:26:39 otherwise nobody would have enough of an attention span to try that. 23:26:46 m4 probably doesn't qualify there. 23:27:00 I had enough of an attention span to try it 23:27:46 m4 at least has some real world uses. 23:27:47 I should learn awk sometime 23:30:03 wow, these debian packages really know how to use up disk space :) 23:32:49 It's a talent of Debian packagers 23:40:28 -!- kipple_ has joined. 23:42:01 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2005-11-03: 00:03:39 -!- kipple has joined. 00:03:40 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:11:44 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:25:32 F!"I wish I were part of EgoBot!" 00:25:32 I wish I were part of EgoBot! 00:25:44 !glass {M[m(_o)O!"So do I!"(_o)o.?]} 00:25:54 Hmm, that's not promising :P 00:25:55 So do I! 00:26:00 Oh, there it goes (lag) 00:33:50 F!"No lag here!" 00:33:50 No lag here! 00:34:06 Pfft 00:42:48 -!- graue has quit. 02:23:31 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:48:11 -!- Sgep has quit (Connection reset by peer). 04:18:30 -!- Arrogant has joined. 04:30:06 holy shit i got banned from #math 04:31:00 lament: join #m-a-t-h 04:31:05 calamari: why? 04:31:16 lament: because you're not banned there 04:31:35 How do you get banned from #math? 04:31:38 calamari: there's a nearly infinite number of channels i'm not banned from! 04:31:53 lament: hehe.. 04:32:00 did you do something to get banned? 04:32:28 I discovered I was banned and I knew I did nothing, so it was probably someone else at my isp 04:33:00 btw finite == nearly infinite? 04:33:14 I'm not banned from #sexwithprogramminglanguages 04:33:45 calamari: finite == not infinite 04:33:50 :P 04:34:11 GregorR: right, I agree 04:34:31 3 is finite. 04:34:41 All the numbers between 0 and 3 is (uncountably) infinite. 04:35:07 not many esolangs include real numbers 04:35:13 or complex 04:35:22 in fact, do any? 04:35:34 they might include complex floats 04:35:41 Python has complex 04:35:54 didn't know Python was considered an esolang 04:35:57 hahaha 04:35:58 it is now 04:36:01 Oh 04:36:06 I thought you said 04:36:09 I don't think any esolangs do 04:36:09 Umm ... almost all languages include real numbers XD 04:36:15 And then you meant any languages 04:36:22 nevermind 04:36:34 well 04:36:41 you can't store most real numbers in a computer 04:36:46 Arrogant: np, just being silly ;) 04:36:52 so most languages have a floating point datatype 04:37:02 instead 04:38:22 * calamari tries to remember.. |Q is a subset of |R, right? 04:38:33 it sure is 04:38:45 and |R is a subset of |C 04:39:05 it sure is 04:39:16 in practice, the distinction between Q and R is irrelevant 04:40:01 (floating point isn't Q, either. That would be arbitrary precision floats) 04:40:21 what is |C a subset of? 04:40:40 quaternions for one 04:40:46 Q is rationals 04:41:14 er, actually i'm probably wrong 04:41:24 quaternions are totally different. 04:41:35 er, no, i'm right. 04:41:46 * calamari consults wikipedia 04:41:47 anyway 04:41:54 beyond R it all gets pretty arbitrarily 04:41:56 *arbitrary 04:42:00 you can construct your own structures 04:42:28 you can consider R as a subset of all vectors with elements in R, for example. 04:42:33 or a subset of all matrices. 04:42:44 quaternion is |H :) 04:44:32 mm Octonion 04:45:58 then sedenions 04:46:38 foonion 04:47:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercomplex_numbers 04:52:56 hmm does an infinite dimensional algebra make any sense? 04:54:21 Yes 04:54:29 google seems to agree 05:08:48 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:18:01 -!- Arrogant has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Go on, try it!"). 06:52:36 -!- nooga has joined. 07:04:17 -!- Robdgreat has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:11:44 -!- Robdgreat has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:59:57 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving"). 09:08:14 -!- lutzhy has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:41:18 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 11:38:08 -!- kipple has joined. 13:32:05 hehe. just took a test of my english skills, and one of the questions was: Which of these two is spelled correctly? Weird or Wierd 15:13:21 And our community made you choose incorrectly, that's terrible! 15:28:14 both were correct, so how could I go wrong :) 16:13:08 -!- sekhmet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:14:36 -!- sekhmet has joined. 16:37:36 -!- jix has joined. 17:34:00 -!- mtve has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:18:12 -!- Keymaker has joined. 18:18:30 hmh 18:18:49 my sceql 99 bottles of beer is still not in 99-bottles-of-beer.net! 18:18:59 i submitted it over a week ago 18:27:04 by the way, anyone knows band called ryksopp? 18:27:15 quite good 18:33:03 I submitted a var'aq version of 99bob several weeks ago, and it hasn't showed up either 18:33:36 maybe they're really busy, or maybe the submission form is broken... 18:34:05 and, yes, Ryksopp is a good band 18:34:34 yeah 18:35:10 i e-mailed one of the team members about it 18:35:19 hasn't replied yet 18:35:25 ok. let me know if you hear anything 18:35:30 ok 19:01:44 -!- graue has joined. 19:07:08 -!- graue has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:41:04 ok, off to watch "home alone 2" 19:41:07 yeah, i'm lame! 19:41:14 bye 19:41:15 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 20:09:04 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 20:10:19 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:29:34 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 20:32:02 , 20:49:30 exactly 20:50:42 whoops 20:50:52 i can't remember typing a "," 20:55:15 -!- calamari has joined. 21:00:22 hi 21:03:00 moin calamari 21:03:38 hi jix.. what's new 21:03:43 nothing 21:03:58 i can't work on bfgentext until next weekend 21:11:46 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:17:43 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]"). 21:28:06 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:45:33 -!- fizzie has joined. 21:48:38 -!- Sgep has joined. 22:02:08 * Sgep will be back in 30min 22:02:13 -!- Sgep has quit. 22:02:34 Why, Sgep, why won't you talk to us?! :P 22:04:21 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:07:05 -!- fizzie has joined. 22:07:09 -!- fizzie_ has joined. 22:07:12 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:13:59 * calamari has added his ESO thoughts to the forum http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/index.html 22:15:55 oops my post was too long.. lol 22:18:39 That's a very strange forum script ... I don't like it ... 22:19:10 GregorR: it's a bit too esoteric for ya? ;) 22:19:21 No ... just bad ... 22:19:31 BTW, is binary BF 3-bit? 22:19:56 +-<>[],. = 000, 001, 010, 011, 100, 101, 110, 111? 22:20:18 yeah I think so.. there were some bf compression projects a while back 22:20:40 not sure of the exact mapping of bf to bits 22:21:09 Well, if there's no problem with that one, why not use it? 22:21:21 Err, to make it a bit more internally consistent: 22:21:23 btw, what did you think of my post.. am I too far out there? 22:21:24 +-><[],. = 000, 001, 010, 011, 100, 101, 110, 111? 22:21:41 I don't know, I can't find posts on this forum :P 22:21:42 ., 22:22:07 hmm actually nm.. hard to say ., or ,. 22:22:41 although I'd argue ., because . increases output while , decreases input :) 22:22:53 Heh 22:23:10 [ increases stack depth, ] decreases stack depth :P 22:23:28 there you go 22:23:30 I propose Glass btw. 22:23:31 :P 22:23:51 Glass is mentioned in my post :) 22:24:14 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/kareha.pl/1130879735/9 22:24:22 I hadn't finished yet :P 22:24:26 Reading it, that is. 22:25:52 I think in the last para you got a bit overzealous. 22:26:01 I don't know if I agree that it should change with time :P 22:26:53 well, the idea is that it's not an os and shell, they are one 22:27:05 so whatever you do in the "shell" directly affects the os 22:27:19 I agree with that part. 22:27:36 But the way you put it it seems like you couldn't do an ls command (whatever that may be) twice ... 22:28:05 well, you couldn't, because the api would change and you'd have to write a new program to run ls 22:28:32 See, that's where I stop agreeing :P 22:29:54 Might be difficult for them to learn the new api :) 22:31:17 actually it might be impossible, as each probe to try to determine how the new api worked would change the api 22:31:26 unless the api changed in a predicatble way 22:31:47 hehe 22:31:53 you're probably right 22:31:56 :P 22:33:28 there you're immortalized on the forum ;) 22:36:48 -!- Sgep has joined. 22:37:01 Hi, Sgep! 22:37:12 How are you? 22:38:36 GregorR: how about http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/phpBB2/ 22:38:47 I always agree with phpBB :P 22:38:50 hi 22:38:54 ok 22:39:05 Sgep, you said something on #esoteric! 22:40:33 * GregorR looks through the logs. 22:41:04 Sgep: I like your binbf, better than the one I put above. 22:41:26 GregorR: above? 22:41:40 * Sgep goes to the wiki 22:42:01 http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Sgeo/binbf vs my simple 000,001,... one. 22:42:13 Far better compression for repeated commands, which is nice. 22:43:22 ty 22:43:38 * Sgep isn't good at knowing what to say 22:43:41 lol 22:43:47 My response is only two months late, eh? :P 22:46:47 GregorR: what's a good division for the forums.. by code layout (1d, 2d, graphical), by type (oo, functional, procedural..), or something else 22:47:08 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 22:47:37 I think layout then type. 22:47:39 perhaps 1d/2d/etc because that's most obvious to a newcomer 22:47:42 yeah 22:48:02 Seeing as that 1D would be the huge group :-P 22:48:19 true.. I wonder if groups can have subgroups. 22:48:22 * calamari checks 22:48:30 No :-P 22:48:33 actually there wouldn't be a need 22:48:41 Exactly ;) 22:48:51 I could just say 1D: oo, 1D: functional, etc) 22:48:53 Just a forum for each lang 22:49:01 nah.. that's too many forums 22:49:13 Oh, right :-P 22:49:18 H.h 22:49:20 and people would then have to ask me to add new ones 22:49:21 Heh even 22:49:59 1D: oo? 22:50:17 Such as Glass, ORK. 22:50:17 one dimensional object oriented.. 1d is probably not the best name 22:50:35 Basically the Gregor section :-P 22:50:48 ;) 22:50:53 * Sgep saw oo as the infinity symbol... 22:50:54 I think there was one other oo 22:51:02 Lies! 22:51:13 It was a joke language! 22:52:57 hah, and you wrote it: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ORK 22:53:18 lol 22:53:41 Such as Glass, ORK. 22:53:59 missed that line 22:54:11 Like I said, the Gregor section ;) 22:54:41 hmm why is pingpong oo 22:55:04 and who created it 22:56:02 well bbl 22:56:03 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 23:00:45 * Sgep is leaving yet again for a half hour 23:01:37 -!- Sgep has quit. 23:37:17 -!- Sgep has joined. 2005-11-04: 00:06:10 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 00:13:46 -!- Sgep has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:07:06 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:33:39 -!- Sgep has joined. 02:54:14 -!- calamari has joined. 02:54:53 hi 02:57:41 Hoi 03:06:14 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:11:17 -!- cmeme has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:11:34 -!- ineiros has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:12:30 -!- cmeme has joined. 03:14:47 -!- ineiros has joined. 03:15:28 I've been considering designing a non-esoteric language. 03:15:47 But I know I'm too lazy to follow through. 03:17:39 -!- ineiros has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:17:39 -!- fizzie_ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:17:40 -!- cmeme has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:17:40 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:25:59 GregorR: did you have something in mind? 03:28:31 i.e. oo, procedural, functional, your own twisted design? 03:34:57 -!- fizzie_ has joined. 03:41:47 -!- ineiros has joined. 03:41:54 -!- cmeme has joined. 03:41:54 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 03:41:59 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server"). 03:42:02 -!- cmeme has joined. 03:52:17 calamari: OO and procedural both as options. 03:52:46 Everything is an object (as in ruby), and generic operator overloading is supported. 03:53:00 GregorR: cool.. will it be run on a vm or compiled natively? 03:53:07 It would be nice to do both :) 03:53:16 * calamari hopes for native 03:53:30 Since it's never going to happen, I can just say whatever I want ;) 03:53:38 that's okay tho ;) 03:53:53 or compile to C 03:54:11 Well, yeah. 03:54:17 That's the obvious cheat to avoid actually compiling :P 03:54:51 why reinvent the wheel 03:55:27 and it can optimize for you so you don't have to deal with it 03:55:35 Yeah 03:56:19 hmm .. I wonder if someone did that for java 03:56:42 Main tenants: 1) Dynamic typing (templates, etc, are unnecessary, because a list of ints is just a list of "things" with ints in it) 03:56:55 2) Pass-by-reference in all cases 03:57:15 3) Objects have a reference count and delete themselves when that gets to 0 (garbage collection) 03:57:25 * calamari notes that Microsoft QuickBasic was pass by reference 03:57:27 4) I'll never get around to writing it, so I can say whatever I want 03:57:46 Wasn't QB was "all-global-variables" :P 03:57:50 -was 03:57:51 nope 03:57:56 *shrugs* 03:58:02 gw-basic was.. and line numbers, etc 03:58:05 * GregorR notes that Java is pass-by-reference. 03:58:43 but qb had functions that didn't share the same variables.. 03:58:49 yeah 03:59:20 Umm, lesse: Like many scripted languages, variables are in a separated namespace ($blah is a variable) 04:00:10 you mean blah$ like lin basic ;) hehehe 04:00:22 >_< 04:01:16 Does this look terrible to you? $a = [100...2] 04:01:26 Along with $a = [1, 2, 3] 04:01:29 what does it do 04:01:33 or $a = ["a", "b", "c"] 04:01:39 Make a an array with the values from 100 to 2 04:01:54 why not a = [100...2] 04:02:05 Because I separated the variable namespace ... 04:02:12 Variables are $blah 04:02:18 what is blah 04:02:24 The name of a random variable :p 04:02:29 $a, $b, $c are all valid variable names. 04:02:43 no I mean "blah" vs "$blah" 04:02:51 what is "blah" 04:02:56 "blah" would be referring to a function or a class. 04:03:01 By the name "blah" 04:03:20 drop the $ and I like it 04:03:25 lol 04:03:31 OK, more C/C++/Java-like :P 04:03:49 sounds good 04:04:36 hmm.. C++ is the only oo lang I know of that compiles natively, except gcj hacks 04:06:22 OK? 04:06:33 is what ok 04:06:46 I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with the C++ point. 04:07:03 oh, that I can't think of other oo examples to compare against 04:07:19 I'm not particularly fond of C++, but I haven't used it much 04:07:29 I like it *shrugs* 04:07:29 C# and Java seem easy 04:07:35 C# = evil 04:07:39 Java = slightly less evil :P 04:08:02 I like the syntax of them 04:08:30 Oh, other points I wanted to make: 04:08:35 C# less so than Java because it's trying to copy without copying hehe 04:08:42 Support for threading, mutexes and semaphores is built in ... 04:08:55 Support for networking is built in as well. 04:09:08 and built in BF support 04:09:29 lol 04:09:33 err glass, pardon the slip 04:09:50 http://pastebin.ca/27567 04:09:56 did you see the Glass -> Java translator the other day? 04:10:30 It wasn't complete was it? 04:10:34 I thought it was in-progress. 04:11:09 looks good except change . to + :) 04:11:36 Hmm, I like the .-style of string concatenation. 04:11:43 So as to not confuse it with adding. 04:11:46 But then, I guess it is adding ... 04:12:28 multiple inheritance? 04:12:52 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 04:12:59 That's a tough decision ... 04:13:12 don't do the lame interface thing :) 04:13:28 Heheh 04:14:39 since it's imaginary, might as well make it good 04:14:42 Part of my dynamic typing idea is that if you had a variable a with a List in it, and called length(), then later did the same thing but this time the variable a has a Que in it, it would still work. 04:14:55 So interfaces are unnecessary. 04:15:02 Unfortunately, that makes compilation really difficult ;) 04:16:00 * calamari scrolls back.. garbage collection. good 04:16:08 Heheh 04:16:28 Garbage collection is easy compared to this level of dynamic typing. 04:16:42 I don't think I understand the dyn typing yet 04:16:53 Well, the only type of variable is a "var" 04:17:05 No ints, floats, Lists or Ques per se. 04:17:19 In fact, let me post a segment of code. 04:17:32 oh.. like Visual Basic 04:17:37 or python 04:18:47 * calamari looks it up 04:18:58 VB: Variant 04:19:29 http://pastebin.ca/27569 04:20:56 new List.. so if a function doesn't take args you don't require () 04:21:13 Umm, "new List" isn't a function per-se. 04:21:25 isn't it calling a constructor 04:21:30 Yeah. 04:21:35 And if the constructor took args, you'd put ()s there. 04:21:41 But in general you need ()s for functions ... 04:21:46 Maybe I'm being dumb there ... 04:21:57 No, I think it makes sense. 04:22:09 The call to the constructor is implicit, not explicit. What you're really doing is making a new List. 04:22:17 well, List() would work too, right? 04:22:23 Yeah 04:22:59 I like it then 04:23:19 Could do the same with functions to keep things consistent 04:23:36 like a read-only c# property 04:23:38 In my mind, I'm still trying to reconcile a way to make functional programming possible. 04:23:58 well I'm calling it a function.. it'd be a method 04:24:04 True. 04:24:12 OH, the real issue: 04:24:25 If you don't have ()s on functions, the line is blurred horribly between variables and functions. 04:24:30 yeah 04:24:37 Almost irrecoverably. 04:24:52 I think you'd run into the same thing on classes 04:24:52 In fact, irrecoverably, not almost. 04:25:05 Well, the class name as a standalone token has no meaning. 04:25:18 It's only meaningful after the keywords "new" or "class" 04:25:39 (Since variables aren't typed) 04:26:46 * calamari notes: Queue ;) 04:26:56 Graah 04:26:59 I always misspell Queue XD 04:27:03 I hate that second ue. 04:27:07 cue is the 3 letter word 04:27:15 It's like bananananananananana 04:28:14 actually, would it be a bad thing to blur variables and functions? 04:28:22 you could pass a variable or pass a function 04:28:58 Hmm 04:29:03 Passing a function would be nice ... 04:29:19 But that goes back to my original thing of () vs no (). You would pass a function by not putting a () on it. 04:29:45 right but then whats wrong with a = myFunction 04:29:56 Nothing - so long as that doesn't call myFunction. 04:30:03 In fact, I like that - so long as it doesn't call myFunction. 04:30:10 actually that'd make sense as a function pointer 04:30:15 yeah :) 04:31:56 you can still have real functions by saying func(tion) rather than method 04:32:21 it'd be like public static in java 04:32:28 or c# by default 04:32:41 (iirc) 04:32:49 no I don't 04:32:52 lol 04:33:10 I would rather /not/ make a big distinction between functions and methods. 04:33:12 OH, in fact! 04:33:19 (/me writes a snippet of code) 04:34:06 Lemme backtrack for a sec. 04:34:13 Should constructors be named the same as the function? 04:34:15 *clas 04:34:17 *class 04:34:27 Or something more meaningful, like "Cons" 04:34:35 well the default one should be at least, so you could nest new calls 04:34:55 for ex: C = new A(new B()) 04:34:56 Umm ... hmm? 04:35:17 That has nothing to do with the name of the constructor ... 04:35:21 oh, I see what you mean 04:35:50 The name of the constructor is totally arbitrary, I just don't really like that it's always named after the class, seems like a more descriptive name would be better. 04:35:58 yeah I always thought using the name of the class was a little clinky 04:36:02 err clunky 04:37:10 public () { ... } .. seems obfuscated 04:37:34 Yeah, I'm doing public the java way. 04:37:43 Err, wait... 04:37:45 Not sure what you just said :P 04:37:50 oh.. sorry 04:38:20 (java for a moment) public class A { public A() { } } 04:38:30 vs public class A { public () { } } 04:38:41 I don't like it 04:38:46 http://pastebin.ca/27570 < how does this look to you? 04:38:49 just seeing what it would look liek with no label 04:39:07 what is :: 04:39:16 Heheh, borrowed C++ style class definitions :P 04:39:21 Don't like Java-style inline definitions. 04:39:33 what is it equivalent to in Java ? 04:39:41 Err, one sec, brb 04:39:55 oic.. it'd be "class" :) 04:40:09 if you're going to say func.. say class too hehe 04:41:21 Umm ... no ... 04:41:27 Wait ... 04:41:28 I think it's appropriate that the class encloses all its methods 04:41:33 Oh, that codes a bit funky, wait. 04:43:03 http://pastebin.ca/27572 04:43:03 is it a c++ thing to move the methods outside the class and use :: ? 04:43:07 Yes. 04:43:09 oic 04:43:14 I find it cleaner. 04:43:26 Because the class definition just tells you information about the class. 04:43:28 -!- Sgep has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:43:53 but a class encloses the methods it contains, so it seems nice to show that 04:44:10 how does c++ handle nested classes ? 04:44:12 Anybody else present to tie-break? 04:44:23 Hmm ... does C++ support subclasses? 04:44:25 I've never used them. 04:44:53 Yes, it does ... 04:44:56 * GregorR looks it up :P 04:44:57 in Java/C# it's as simple as aanother class definition nested inside the parent 04:45:19 Yeah, I know that much. 04:45:31 And on the one hand I like it, and on the other hand I don't. 04:45:57 I really only use them when coding Swing 04:46:09 because of all the event handling 04:46:39 OK, yes, it supports nested classes. 04:46:47 And it's simply SuperClass::SubClass::Function 04:47:14 I /STILL/ find it better to have the class declaration function-content-free. 04:47:57 Merely so that you can look at the top of a file and see all the interfaces to your class, instantly. 04:48:04 Without needing to dig around the functions. 04:50:05 Tie-breakers? Anyone? 04:52:27 Pff :P 04:56:55 GregorR: you should do it your way since it's your lang ;) 04:57:10 I find SuperClass::SubClass::Function hard to understand tho hehe 04:57:31 and it's all imaginary anyways so who cares ;) 04:57:39 Which is why I want a tie-breaker :-P 04:57:41 Heheh 04:58:45 -!- calaptop has joined. 04:58:56 I like calamari's way 04:59:12 -!- calaptop has quit (Client Quit). 05:00:40 where do you put class variables.. just anywhere outside a method? 05:01:01 how about this: 05:01:45 NRN 05:01:49 Err 05:02:00 Forgot I was in Dvorak :-P 05:02:02 LOL 05:02:02 nm.. thought I had something but it was bad 05:02:39 Anyway, yeah, class variables just go in the class. 05:02:41 * calamari is blind 05:02:45 private var a 05:02:50 Yeah ;) 05:02:59 private var a = 23; ? 05:03:12 err no semicolon.. nice 05:03:19 Thats what constructors are for ... 05:03:31 Yeah, no semicolons 05:03:42 but if its a private constructor 05:03:48 Ummmm 05:03:57 Does that make any sense? 05:04:01 yes 05:04:09 Explain. 05:04:28 two things 05:04:38 1) only functions 05:04:42 helo 05:05:02 http://pastebin.ca/27572 < Break this tie! 05:05:12 2) control contruction of your class.. you can have them call a method and it can return a new instance or an old one, or even null if it wants to 05:05:37 I think it's called the singleton pattern 05:05:53 Hmmmmm 05:06:04 I don't see how it would be useful :P 05:06:17 Do C++ and Java support private constructors? 05:06:20 it's like having a constant. 05:06:23 GregorR: yeah 05:06:24 or something. 05:06:40 I read C# and Java 05:06:40 * GregorR goes to google. 05:06:47 I dunno about c++ 05:07:20 c++ sucks!!!!! :D 05:07:21 GregorR: look up singleton and factory design patterns 05:07:29 and the tie is broken!!! :) 05:08:30 No it isn't ... 05:10:38 how does c++ do abstract classes 05:11:04 Unfortunately, badly. 05:11:12 It's really unintuitive >_> 05:12:16 Really, abstract classes and interfaces in C++ are just classes with functions defined to nothing. 05:12:24 Then you subclass them and define those classes. 05:13:08 I remember when I was first trying to learn oo programming, someone was trying to show me c++, but it really confused me.. Java seemed to make sense automatically. So it could just be different ways our brains folded hehe 05:13:57 * GregorR finally sort of figured out what private constructors are for. 05:14:59 c++ and java are not all that different 05:15:11 It's mostly syntactic sugar. 05:15:15 And builtin classes :P 05:15:32 yep 05:15:39 Java has a great class library 05:16:52 You know, I still don't see anything that a singleton class can do that you can't do less obtusely by other means. 05:18:27 Having this bizarre class with a static member of its own type and a private constructor ... yukk. 05:18:56 That being said ... 05:19:04 How about a means of producing singleton classes that isn't so obtuse? 05:20:02 or just skip the whole oo thing ;) 05:20:06 lol 05:20:22 Really, I guess, if you're using a singleton class, it's hardly even OO :P 05:20:33 It's more like a namespace than a class. 05:22:53 calamari: Let's cooperate on the construction of the compiler - and since I don't and won't write Java, and you don't and won't write C++, we can write it in Perl ;) 05:23:01 lol 05:23:41 I have the feeling that would degenerate into a perl golf 05:24:38 btw I would write C++, I just don't know it.. 05:25:22 I used to be a language snob, then I realized how much I liked Java and had to give up 05:25:40 Umm ... 05:25:45 What language were you snobby towards? 05:25:48 Java 05:25:51 :) 05:26:09 ... 05:26:10 and anything that wasn't compiled generally 05:26:13 Parser error on line 1. 05:26:41 I wrote programs in asm rather than dos batch files 05:26:57 lol 05:27:26 Umm ..... 05:27:35 I still can't quite shake the same feeling when watching linux boot up.. too many scripts 05:27:36 So you mean anything that /was/ compiled? 05:28:02 Oh wait. 05:28:06 Hahaha 05:28:15 I think we have reverse definitions of "snobby towards" 05:28:17 :P 05:28:23 Since it's a meaningless phrase. 05:28:37 sure 05:29:12 I have a poor vocabulary... just one of those things 05:30:00 so you never have to worry about me running for a public office 05:30:37 -!- Arrogant has joined. 05:30:38 hmm but there's bush.. blows away that theory 05:30:39 Hmmm. 05:30:43 Exactly ;) 05:30:58 Theory huh 05:31:07 calamarisure 05:31:09 calamariI have a poor vocabulary... just one of those things 05:31:11 calamariso you never have to worry about me running for a public office 05:31:25 Hehe 05:31:26 Arrogant: Tie-break this: http://pastebin.ca/27572 05:31:48 Hell, the people like idiots because they can feel they're on the same level 05:32:17 actually as president you just need to be good at reading what someone else wrote hehe 05:32:35 not likethey write their own speeches 05:32:44 They don't 05:33:08 GregorR: I nest functions in the class definition 05:33:17 It's something I picked up from Python 05:33:19 FUCK YOU BITCH 05:33:21 :P 05:33:25 Fine, I lose. 05:33:32 Javascript doesn't let you do it at all 05:33:41 Great language! 05:33:52 Thanks - trying to write a non-obfuscated language :P 05:34:09 Ah 05:34:18 Looks a little bit like C++ 05:35:17 Trying to strike a nice balance between C++ and Java and others. 05:35:30 And also be dynamically typed. 05:35:51 I don't see a need for public and private data 05:36:13 Arrogant's opinion no longer matters :P 05:36:39 The division between public and private data is as old as programming itself! 05:36:48 So? 05:36:56 War is as old as civilization itself 05:37:25 And war is awesome. 05:37:27 :P 05:37:28 Give me a good reason that you'd want it. 05:37:47 It's mostly to keep programmers from being idiots XD 05:38:00 Programmers will find other ways to be idiots 05:38:19 You're just putting up a safety fence 05:38:24 lol 05:39:39 does it improve security? 05:39:51 http://pastebin.ca/27575 05:39:57 I'd have to say not. 05:39:59 Don't see how 05:40:14 then down with the public private 05:40:20 Err, wait, I totally f'd up that code. 05:40:23 Ignore that previous link. 05:41:18 http://pastebin.ca/27576 05:41:25 (Also I took out public/private) 05:41:35 Oh wait, I failed to take out public/private XD 05:41:41 Ignore the word "private" in there ;) 05:42:40 Here, read this 05:42:43 http://livelogix.net/tom/blog/?p=20#more-20 05:42:54 Although it's got an obvious syntax problem it's got potential 05:43:22 (It uses <- for return, what's to keep <- x from being < -x 05:43:25 ) 05:44:35 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 05:44:43 I barely condone breaking at all :P 05:45:04 A return is a break 05:45:18 one entry one exit for you? 05:45:41 Heheh 05:45:43 Valid points. 05:46:05 However, a function ought to have multiple exit points, but (IMHO), a loop ought not to. 05:46:21 A function should give back its results whenever they become available. A loop ... isn't a function. 05:46:24 although I have to say that I don't miss goto much in Java. 05:46:35 A function doesn't have to be special. 05:47:08 Regardless of syntax, loops are not functions. Even if they were syntactically the same, loops are still not conceptually functions. 05:47:22 That being said, I break now and then myself ;) 05:47:25 Of course they're not. 05:47:35 They're blocks that operate in a special way. 05:47:39 I think I continue more than I break 05:47:40 A function is also a block that operates in a special way. 05:47:57 The article seeks to unite them 05:48:23 Logix is a really cool project but it's not going anywhere. There are some really good ideas in there though 06:02:24 floops 06:04:43 they're like functions, but they're loops! 06:05:23 :P 06:05:51 Too bad most languages suck at tail-calling 06:07:18 s/languages/implementations 06:16:05 http://www.bash.org/?60297 06:16:50 sweet 06:28:07 bbl 06:28:09 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 06:50:53 -!- Arrogant2 has joined. 06:51:04 Hmm 06:51:59 -!- Arrogant2 has left (?). 06:59:29 Attack of the clones! 07:01:13 -!- Blonde_19 has joined. 07:01:18 -!- Blonde_19 has left (?). 07:05:56 Woah .... 07:06:21 damn we totally missed some good cybering there 07:06:25 That was almost suggestive of female-ness ... 07:06:28 lol 07:06:49 Hmmmmmmm 07:06:51 * GregorR is blonde ... 07:06:54 * GregorR is 19 ... 07:07:26 -!- GregorR has changed nick to Blonde_19. 07:07:37 Hey baby let's cyber roflrofl 07:08:08 k 07:08:12 pixpls 07:08:41 http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://free-sex-pictures-gallery.org/gallery/teen/1013.jpg&imgrefurl=http://free-sex-pictures-gallery.org/gallery/teen/&h=700&w=525&sz=24&tbnid=AfkJCM11d3IJ:&tbnh=138&tbnw=103&hl=en&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dnude%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN (NSFW) 07:09:03 http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:AfkJCM11d3IJ:free-sex-pictures-gallery.org/gallery/teen/1013.jpg rather XD 07:09:14 she's not blonde 07:09:41 Damn, wasn't paying attn to detail. 07:09:53 http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:m5LDc0ylbIcJ:www.nudistpicturegallery.com/thin_blonde_woman_nude.jpg 07:10:33 you know what firefox needs? 07:10:37 What? 07:10:43 A good download manager 07:10:52 What does that have to do with cybering :P 07:10:54 -!- Blonde_19 has changed nick to GregorR. 07:11:00 Nothing! 07:11:03 Not the point. 07:11:11 Hehehe, I was kidding ;) 07:11:54 Really though. How hard would it be to make downloads that you could pause and resume over sessions 07:12:00 You can already pause them in the middle of a session 07:12:51 Yeah, something like getright would be a welcome addition. 07:13:46 Something like GetRight without the crap that comes with GetRight 07:14:46 * Arrogant needs a good irc client 07:15:01 HydraIRC is alright but it lacks scripting 07:15:02 * GregorR uses Chatzilla *shrugs* 07:15:06 Chatzilla is nice 07:15:10 But it's scripting is Javascript 07:15:14 B--- 07:15:15 Yeah 07:15:16 :) 07:15:18 mIRC has scripting but it also sucks 07:15:23 its* 07:15:30 Javascript is not nice :-P 07:15:37 No it's not. 07:15:44 But it is better than mIRC's sorry excuse 07:15:58 How about I write an IRC client scriptable in Glass? :) 07:16:17 Better than mIRC 07:16:27 XChat has Python scripting 07:16:37 But sucks in almost every other way 07:16:40 Heheh 07:16:54 It's alright for Linux but the Windows port... 07:17:28 Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 07:17:37 You use THAT OS 07:18:56 Unfortunately 07:19:07 Until tomorrow anyway 07:19:21 How's that? 07:19:36 I'm installing Ubuntu Breezy 07:19:42 Coolin 07:19:44 Hmm 07:19:46 Coolio 07:21:07 I'll probably drag my PC over to a friends house and do a full apt-get upgrade 07:39:28 You know, with Firefox 2, Chatzilla will have Python scripting. 07:42:39 Hmmmmmmmmmmmm 07:42:56 With that, it's time for me to sleep :-P 07:43:40 Night 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:25 -!- Arrogant has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:08:34 -!- kipple has joined. 09:12:15 -!- lindi- has joined. 09:12:28 -!- lindi- has left (?). 09:46:33 -!- kipple has left (?). 12:52:42 -!- Keymaker has joined. 13:12:07 Arrogant: use opera, opera's download manager is pretty good 13:12:29 gregorr: nice pics x) 13:52:31 -!- jix has joined. 13:53:44 'ello jix! 13:53:48 it's weeekeeeeend! 13:53:53 right 13:54:08 :) 13:54:17 right too 13:55:09 anyways, it's time for me to go.. bbl. 13:55:13 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 14:24:18 -!- calamari has joined. 14:33:17 moin calamari 14:35:07 hi jix 14:35:19 how's it goin 14:35:51 i have much spare time now => developing bfgentext 15:03:22 hehe cool 16:00:48 -!- Keymaker has joined. 17:04:34 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 17:21:27 -!- jix has joined. 18:25:42 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 19:26:59 -!- fizzie_ has changed nick to fizzie. 20:49:24 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 21:20:19 -!- Sgep has joined. 21:21:54 -!- Sgep has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:23:20 -!- Sgep has joined. 21:55:43 -!- calamari has joined. 22:07:49 hi 22:12:39 * jix is learning a lot about c++ and stl 22:13:04 bfgentext is a good project to learn how to do things in c++ 22:16:38 but why would you? :) 22:17:15 lament: c++ is an esoteric language ;) 22:17:45 because i need high speed 22:18:14 i implemented the thing in ruby to check if it works.. now i'm reimplementing it in c++ to make it fast enough 22:22:38 what does it find for the hello world test 22:23:08 i'm still doing the rhs no lhs yet 22:23:22 oh 23:17:56 jix ... come to the dark side ... use C++ >: ) 23:18:06 (That's how I got 'im to use C++) 23:31:56 -!- Sgep has quit. 23:56:52 !bf8 >>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<+++++++++++++++.<++++++++++. 23:56:59 ?o 2005-11-05: 00:05:11 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 00:24:13 -!- fungebob has joined. 00:26:25 -!- fungebob has changed nick to fungeb0b. 00:27:54 -!- fungeb0b has quit (Client Quit). 00:30:15 -!- fungeb0b has joined. 00:35:35 -!- Sgep has joined. 00:55:08 !bf8 -. 00:55:33 !bf16 -. 00:55:40 !bf24 -. 00:56:26 00:56:28 01:15:33 -!- Taliesin41 has joined. 01:15:37 -!- Taliesin41 has changed nick to KevinN. 01:16:12 hi there 01:17:35 -!- fungeb0b has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]"). 01:31:49 hi Kevin 01:31:54 !bf32 -. 01:31:58 01:35:05 !bf32 +[[+]>+] 01:36:59 !ps 01:39:10 1 Robdgreat: bf 01:39:12 2 ihope: lazyk 01:39:14 3 calamari: bf32 01:39:16 4 calamari: ps 01:42:14 !kill 3 01:42:34 Process 3 killed. 01:46:32 hoihoi 01:47:08 what is that? 01:48:08 !ps 01:48:34 !bf32 -. 01:48:38 01:48:48 aaah... ^_^ 01:48:54 1 Robdgreat: bf 01:48:56 2 ihope: lazyk 01:48:58 3 KevinN: ps 01:49:14 !kill 3 01:49:34 Process 3 killed. 01:49:51 wow... a brainfuck-interpreter for IRC... 01:51:20 !bf32 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 01:51:25 7 01:51:50 !bf32 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 01:51:54 A 01:52:40 !bf32 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 01:52:51 !bf32 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 01:52:54 L 01:53:01 !bf32 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 01:53:06 K 01:53:21 KevinN: bf is far from the only language available. 01:53:51 See the topic. 01:54:21 !help 01:56:50 help ps kill i eof flush show ls 01:56:52 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} glass glypho kipple lazyk malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01 01:57:00 hmm wiki writing seems to be messed up 01:57:42 !befunge "hi",,@ 01:57:52 hm 01:57:54 no? 01:58:16 where's the output? :( 01:58:23 !ps 01:59:13 1 Robdgreat: bf 01:59:14 2 ihope: lazyk 01:59:16 3 calamari: ps 02:00:10 !befunge >< 02:00:11 !ps 02:00:43 seems it doesn't work... somehow... 02:00:53 hrm.. can't modify my user page.. bummer 02:01:14 well 02:01:17 1 Robdgreat: bf 02:01:18 2 ihope: lazyk 02:01:19 at least falsebot works :) 02:01:20 3 lament: befunge 02:01:23 4 lament: ps 02:01:27 !kill 3 02:01:37 F!"False is clearly the best" 02:01:37 False is clearly the best 02:01:48 Process 3 killed. 02:02:12 lament: what languages have you invented? I have a bad memory 02:02:22 calamari: prelude and fugue 02:02:48 well, and BEST, and a couple of joke ones. 02:03:15 and smallf*? 02:03:29 well, yeah. 02:03:34 smallfuck you mean. 02:03:39 wow... more'n 4 already... :O 02:03:40 no I don't ;) 02:03:45 oh 02:03:52 i didn't invent smallf* :) 02:03:58 hehe 02:04:10 but that hardly qualifies as "invent" 02:04:17 true 02:04:35 well... better than nothing at all... ;) 02:04:38 btchanger barely, because of the combination of commands 02:04:53 I should just modify the timeline and see if anyone complains 02:05:51 talking of which... I'm going to write a btchanger-to-AlPhAbEt-compiler (in AlPhAbEt) to prove its turing-completeness... 02:06:15 it's much easier to do it that way than write an btchanger-interpreter... 02:06:27 -n 02:08:08 KevinN: prove the turing-completeness of what? 02:08:30 of AlPhAbEt itself... ;) 02:09:23 (since btchanger is turing-complete, and since every btchanger-source can be translated to an equivalent AlPhAbEt-source, AlPhAbEt is turing-complete, too)... 02:09:47 at least that's the idea... 02:12:41 seems pretty straightforwardly TC 02:12:43 -!- sekhmet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:14:55 jupp... so, I don't need to think about how to prove turing-completeness, but implement an already turing-proven language... 02:15:47 -!- sekhmet has joined. 02:16:31 yes :) 02:16:41 should be fore fun, too 02:16:43 *more 02:19:20 -!- sekhmet has quit (Connection reset by peer). 02:19:30 well... that's the cool thing about ABC... it's not fun using it... ^_^ 02:19:38 well... maybe a bit... 02:20:33 however, time doesn't go by so fast... so you can solve more complex problems... 02:20:45 (really don't know, how this works, but it does) 02:22:14 -!- sekhmet has joined. 02:23:03 re 02:38:38 Night all. 02:41:59 cya sgep 02:51:07 -!- Sgep has quit. 03:03:50 -!- Arrogant has joined. 03:06:53 -!- sekhmet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:07:17 -!- sekhmet has joined. 03:35:42 -!- sekhmet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:42:07 -!- sekhmet has joined. 03:42:45 -!- sekhmet has quit (No route to host). 03:46:52 -!- sekhmet has joined. 03:53:39 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 04:01:22 -!- sekhmet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:03:29 -!- KevinN has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:22:08 -!- sekhmet has joined. 04:45:22 sekhmet, having problems? 04:51:26 who does the bf golf's? 04:51:37 Keymaker, right? 04:51:48 No clue :P 04:57:40 :P 04:58:09 maybe I should use the nifty new forum for it 04:58:40 err I meant "nifty" hehe 05:21:24 * calamari notes that it's hard to come up with good categories for esolangs that don't overlap 05:22:21 -!- duerig has joined. 05:23:12 !rail http://pastebin.ca/raw/27689 05:23:41 foobar! 05:23:45 lol 05:23:48 Hmm. 05:23:49 That was slow 05:23:50 That is slow. 05:23:55 But it isn't done yet. 05:24:01 Or shouldn't be. 05:24:02 Haha 05:24:04 It's your interpreter ;) 05:24:09 Granted. 05:25:08 Except that it runs pretty much instantaneously on my computer. 05:25:20 !ps 05:25:30 Hmm 05:25:36 Must be lag, too. 05:25:37 Could the EgoBot be lagged down for some reason? 05:25:40 Ah. 05:25:43 Hahaha. 05:25:49 Anyhow, check out the code for that. 05:25:59 I had the idea as I was going to sleep last night. 05:26:02 Kind of obfuscatory. 05:26:09 1 Robdgreat: bf 05:26:11 2 ihope: lazyk 05:26:13 3 duerig: ps 05:26:15 I'm looking at it :-P 05:26:44 Running it on Egobot didn't finish. 05:26:49 How odd. 05:27:01 Yes it did ... 05:27:12 !kill 1 05:27:15 !kill 2 05:27:34 Process 1 killed. 05:27:35 !rail http://pastebin.ca/raw/27689 05:27:36 Process 2 killed. 05:27:50 It only says 'foobar!' 05:27:55 It should say 'raboof!' too. 05:27:57 foobar! 05:28:09 !ps 05:28:12 The issue is probably that EgoBot isn't logged in. 05:28:22 To nickserv. 05:28:26 Oh. 05:28:27 1 duerig: ps 05:28:29 That could be it. 05:28:37 -!- GregorR has quit (Nick collision from services.). 05:28:59 Oh well. 05:29:01 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to GregorR. 05:29:25 Anyhow, how did you like the code? It runs backwards and forwards over the same track, and does something subtly different each time. 05:29:26 Now try it. 05:29:34 !rail http://pastebin.ca/raw/27689 05:29:42 (I ust made it log in) 05:29:49 I see. 05:29:57 foobar! 05:30:05 Nifty. 05:30:13 * duerig shakes the EgoBot's hand. 05:30:22 -!- GregorR_ has joined. 05:30:34 lol, my alter ego rejoined :P 05:30:43 Eh? 05:31:11 I killed my home connection through nickserv. 05:31:15 But it rejoined :P 05:31:15 I see. 05:31:19 Heh. 05:31:22 Interesting. 05:35:42 !rail http://pastebin.ca/raw/27692 05:36:23 Hello, world! 05:36:56 * duerig cackles wickedly. 05:37:28 Whoops. I forgot to expire that pastebin. Oh well. 05:49:16 duerig: Did you see the nonesolang I was designing? 05:49:26 No. Tell me about it. 05:49:59 How 'bout I point you to the logs for yesterday :P 05:50:12 Ah. I'll read those. 05:50:31 Hmmm 05:50:38 The meme ones are lacking ... 05:50:50 I too am trying to design a nonesolang. But order of execution is hurting my head. 05:51:22 Heheh 05:51:37 Aha, the tunes.org logs are complete 05:52:25 Ok. 05:52:29 So for Nov. 4th. 05:52:42 It messes me up that they are in a completely different timezone than I am. :) 05:52:45 3rd 05:52:58 Yeah :P 05:54:08 btw, somebody should do a ternary bf some day. 05:55:40 Just to be pedantic, compiling to c is just as valid a compilation as compiling to some assembler. :) 05:56:04 But less difficult ;) 05:56:46 Actually, I disagree. 05:56:51 It is *more* difficult. 05:57:10 Actuall, I'm half considering compiling to C++ to get free OO 05:57:14 The backend is the same. 05:57:32 The code generation is simpler with a simpler instruction set. 05:58:06 To take advantage of c, you have to be more subtle than just using 'goto'. 05:58:09 For instance. 05:58:19 'cuz there are all those other kinds of constructs that are optimized in different ways. 05:58:31 That is just how I see it, though. 05:58:43 C-- would be a good language to generate 05:58:54 It's intended for that, isn't it. 05:58:56 I wouldn't compile to C++. Too much of a headache. 05:59:04 I'm not sure what C-- is. 05:59:22 What is the purpose of your new language? 05:59:45 can someone point me to a bf interpreter in a language whose only control structure is if/then/goto ? 05:59:50 Basicall, the power of C(++) but with a more scripting lang feel. 05:59:59 I've looked in the archives and haven't found any 06:00:15 Robdgreat: I'm sure there are ASM ones ... 06:00:36 good point 06:01:01 GregorR, what advantage will the scripting language feel get you? I know there are many advantages, I'm just wondering which ones are most important to you. 06:01:24 Dynamic typing, RAD are the primary ones. 06:02:09 Enough builtin stuff to make apps quickly is always nice :) 06:02:22 *nod*. I see. 06:02:34 RAD is rad 06:02:37 totally 06:03:15 lol 06:04:02 Hmm... my current vision of your language seems a lot like python. How does it differ? 06:04:22 Umm ... braces ;) 06:04:34 Hahaha. 06:04:46 btw, named constructors is *really* good! 06:05:02 One of the major flaws in C++ is the fact that all constructors must have the same name. 06:05:24 It's actually not very dissimilar to python, but there are things in python that I ust don't really like. 06:05:36 Hopefully, this language won't have 'em ;) 06:06:10 What do you dislike about python? 06:07:15 Well, a lot of it is actually syntactic - if I took a python interpreter, and changed the parser a bit, it would be pretty close ;) 06:07:35 Idonno, I haven't used Python in a while, so I don't remember the specifics I disliked. 06:07:45 I'll go read my Python book and get back to you ;) 06:08:46 I would be interested to know. I like the idea of python, but certain things about it make me nervous. 06:09:45 I don't know whether I can handle no braces. :) And the fact that subclassing is not done based on names kind of freaks me out. 06:10:04 But if I actually sat down with it, I'd probably get used to it. 06:10:11 Also it seems like you can change WAY too much at runtime ... 06:10:55 Somebody told me about his using a library, but remaking the whole central class to the library to do something he wanted >_< 06:11:10 In HIS CODE, not actually changing the library code. 06:11:42 That is kind of odd. 06:12:09 The problem is, you could fuck up somebody's code in your code, then submit a bug to their bugtracking system :P 06:13:02 True. But generally if you are dinking around with somebody else's code and something goes wrong, you can be pretty sure it is your own bug. 06:13:33 You underestimate how stupid people are ;) 06:13:52 Hahaha. Possibly. 06:14:04 But that is an easy thing to do. :) 06:16:26 It looks like your language could be interesting. 06:17:58 If I could give one bit of advice, though, that would be to focus onto one or a few design goals and then decide everything in relation to them. 06:19:09 One of my coworkers, a PHD student, wanted to design a language for his dissertation. His design goal was 'write a language that will take over the c/c++/java marketshare. Not a good design goal. :) 06:20:07 On the other hand, making a language good at RAD is a decent design goal. 06:20:08 That language would have to have a built-in do-everything construct. 06:20:50 It probably wouldn't take over even then. The kind of person who uses c wouldn't trust a do-everything construct. :) 06:20:57 True. 06:21:34 do-everything.loadWebpageAndRenderItPrettyLike() 06:21:42 Hahaha. 06:22:00 There is probably some Microsoft researcher trying to implement that class right this second! :-) 06:22:15 Probably 06:22:18 But it'll mess up on the pretty 06:22:26 Granted. 06:22:33 I'm going to idle for a bit. 06:22:39 Later. 06:22:42 Later. 06:22:42 -!- Arrogant has quit (" Like VS.net's GUI? Then try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-"). 06:47:15 RobDGreat: still looking for an if/then/goto bf interpreter? 06:48:20 * calamari should code one for spaghetti :) 06:49:14 lol 06:51:35 actually I just got back to the comp 06:56:41 Robdgreat: any language preference? 07:05:51 times up! spaghetti here we come :) 07:23:22 I want to do one in atari basic 07:23:43 but right now I'm preoccupied with the Oracle of Bacon 07:25:01 * calamari is still figuring out how to read in the bf program :(, lol 07:25:32 had to re-learn the lang 07:34:53 Adolf Hitler and Ron Jeremy: 4 degrees of separation 07:49:43 bedtime 07:52:35 Robdgreat, don't do it in atari basic. Do it in atari assembler! 07:53:40 Atari assembler is great. You've gotta love those 8-bit registers. :-) 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:14:12 mmm 6502 08:15:02 a few students are using my 5200bas compiler for a grad class project 08:17:17 coding in spaghetti has some 6502 similarities.. having to code high and low pointer bytes 09:03:53 -!- GregorR has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 09:04:20 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 09:07:48 -!- calamari has joined. 09:26:10 re's 09:32:32 hrm 09:32:53 weird bug.. I can print "Hello Wor", but if I print the l it goes weird 09:39:29 fixed :) 09:39:42 I needed unsigned char in not just char 09:44:48 hahah for spaghetti c output -O3 is smaller than -Os 10:10:53 -!- jix has joined. 10:19:37 debugging... 10:19:55 hi jix, bye jix 10:19:57 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 10:44:24 Jix: debugging? 10:45:51 i'm working on my bf text-output-code generator 10:49:07 -!- sp3tt has joined. 10:59:29 c++ sucks.. 10:59:41 i'm not going to continue writing this in c++ 11:33:31 -!- duerig has quit ("Leaving"). 14:25:11 -!- sp3tt_ has joined. 14:38:03 Robdgreat: Was that just me splitting all the time? I had figured that was something going on with Freenode in general 14:42:01 -!- sp3tt has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:44:40 sekhmet: you appeared to have been repeatedly getting booted 15:45:20 oh wait 15:45:31 you split twice and once was no route to host 16:01:00 GregorR_: ... target)))))))) ;) 16:01:06 writing lisp is fun 16:45:08 -!- Sgep has joined. 16:48:51 jix: ruby! :o) 16:49:11 ruby is too slow 16:49:18 i used ruby for prototyping the algorithm 16:49:41 yeah, fair enough 16:50:40 i implemented a binary heap in lisp... the code looks... lispy ;) 16:53:20 :D 16:53:29 gotta heart them brackets 16:53:36 incidentally, have you ever heard of D? 16:53:56 yes it's a horror to compile it 16:54:18 i gave up... 16:54:36 yeah? hmm 16:55:03 shame, I've heard good things about it 16:55:06 never used it myself 17:00:04 * Sgep needs to leave for 30min 17:00:51 -!- Sgep has quit. 17:05:55 hmm, I wish I knew more about website performance 17:06:08 why? 17:06:31 'cause I'm kicking around an idea for a CMS, but I'm not quite sure about stuff 17:06:38 like the performance of disk reads vs database reads 17:08:25 data base searches faster database faster for small data sets (texts etc, account informations) harddisk ist faster for files (images etc) configurations is faster if it's written in native code 17:08:39 some things changes if you have a process that answers multiple requests 17:08:57 than configurations should be yaml or something human readable and parsed once not once per request 17:09:11 hmm, right 17:09:20 so it's basically always a better idea to store stuff in databases? 17:11:42 no it's bad to store downloads and images in databases 17:11:57 but you may store the paths to the files in the database 17:11:58 er, sorry, yeah, by stuff I meant pages 17:12:03 yes 17:12:29 if you have multiple requests/process you may want to cache some pages 17:12:44 or parts of pages 17:13:39 heh 17:13:54 it's terrible, I keep throwing around ideas and either ending up at "oh, wait, that's PHP" 17:14:02 or "oh, wait, that's smarty" 17:14:15 smarty? 17:14:21 php templating engine 17:14:30 do not use php 17:14:39 np: Ensiferum - Guardians Of Fate [ Ensiferum ] 17:15:04 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smarty <--- etc 17:15:13 and yeah, I'm not using php - it's icky :P 17:17:08 use lisp!)))))) ;) 17:17:45 or with slime: use lisp!C-x C-q 17:18:24 haha 17:21:12 but yeah, it's tough to come up with any ideas without realising you're just duplicating someone else's work 17:22:40 * jix has to eat something 17:22:42 bbl 17:31:51 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:34:38 -!- Sgep has joined. 18:00:28 -!- Sgep has quit. 18:01:25 -!- calamari has joined. 18:02:02 hi 18:25:24 c++ sucks... 18:25:32 moin calamari 18:40:12 -!- Keymaker has joined. 18:40:14 hello 18:40:44 moin Keymaker 18:43:13 hi 18:43:16 how's going? 18:43:30 i switched back to lisp because c++ sucks 18:43:44 ah 19:18:01 -!- sp3tt__ has joined. 19:27:17 was there some way to list the channels and their topic? 19:27:30 or is some client feature? 19:27:37 *is it 19:31:19 -!- sp3tt_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:39:23 -!- Sgep has joined. 19:50:24 -!- sp3tt___ has joined. 20:06:20 -!- sp3tt__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:07:10 -!- sp3tt____ has joined. 20:14:24 Keymaker: /list 20:15:02 cheers 20:21:22 -!- sp3tt___ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:22:10 -!- GregorR has joined. 20:22:20 I finally updated my hats page :P 20:22:46 cool! 20:22:51 cool! 20:23:33 maybe you should update the text too? 20:23:40 D'oh >_< 20:23:51 :D 20:23:57 the fez picture is fun 20:24:01 Hmm, just saw a commercial that seemed a lot like Santa Clause and Garth Brooks were going to have gay sex. 20:24:21 hmmm, i know garth brooks but who is santa clause? 20:24:31 (joke) 20:25:13 i have no idea who is garth brooks 20:25:49 country music artist.. eew country 20:26:32 np: Ensiferum - Lai Lai Hei [ Iron ] 20:26:36 hmh 20:26:47 i don't like country 20:26:56 i assume ensiferum is country band? 20:27:04 no.... 20:27:08 Nobody in their right mind likes country. 20:27:17 i don't like country 20:27:17 But anyway, I fixed the text :P 20:27:22 :) 20:27:33 jix: yeah, i guessed 20:27:41 ensiferum is melodic death metal 20:28:16 * jix is bad at music categorisation i just copied that description from somewhere 20:28:21 ok 20:28:33 i just stopped today at one finnish web music store 20:28:45 they had probably hundred metal categories 20:29:01 And Gregor doesn't like any of 'em :P 20:29:17 Keymaker: btw, did you run the bf golf contests a while back? 20:29:46 GregorR: you know you secretly like hair metal .. :P 20:29:56 Yeaaaaaaaaah ... no. 20:30:29 ensiferum is a finnish band btw 20:30:55 GregorR: what's your favorite music? 20:31:18 Hmmm, I'd have to go with Romantic-era Russian. 20:31:46 any online samples? 20:31:48 Borodin, Rimsky-Korsakov, Ippolotov-Ivanoff, etc. 20:32:05 Well, I'm sure you've heard Flight of the Bumblebee, that's by Rimsky-Korsakov. 20:32:26 yeah i'm sure i heard something of them but i'm sure i don't remember the name 20:32:35 SCOOTER!!!!!!!! 20:32:39 is my favourite band 20:32:44 Heh, just google any of them, I always buy CDs so I don't know of any particular sites. 20:32:56 Oh, Balakirev too. 20:32:59 calamari: no, i haven't ran any bf golf contests, 20:33:03 just three of my own 20:33:05 scooter is music? 20:33:12 yes it is! 20:33:18 Keymaker: oic 20:33:19 No, Scooter is vehicle ;) 20:33:36 calamari: and the latest one ended few days ago 20:33:44 without any entries :( 20:34:08 even i, as a competition planner, didn't get mine done 20:34:22 Keymaker: url? 20:34:32 Anyway, I'm off again, byeeeeeeeeeeeeee 20:34:38 bye 20:34:44 cya ego 20:34:44 -!- GregorR has quit ("*POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOF*"). 20:34:58 http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1360541&forum_id=201037 20:36:10 I have an idea for a new contest... it shouldn't be especially difficult 20:36:15 tell me! 20:36:57 in my automata/grammars/tcm clas we have discussed the various models of computation 20:37:08 aha 20:38:30 one problem a finite automaton couldn't solve was L = a^n b^n, (basically two strings of characters of equal length) 20:38:43 but a context free language could, because of its stack 20:39:07 however, a context-free lang can't handle a^n b^n c^n 20:39:44 so I thought it'd be neat to see the shortest bf program that would either accept/reject an input based on whether it fits a^n b^n c^n 20:40:15 for example aaaabbbbcccc is in the language, but aaaabccc would not be 20:40:52 hmmm, i still don't get it :) i'm sorry, i'm dumb 20:41:25 aaaa bbbb cccc, another way to write it is a^4 b^4 c^4 20:41:35 so in that case n=4=4=4 20:41:49 mmh 20:42:04 but aaaa b ccc = a^4 b^1 c^3, 4 != 1 != 3 20:42:15 yeah 20:42:17 so it is not in the language a^n b^n c^n 20:42:23 now i see 20:42:28 :9 20:42:37 that'd be neat 20:42:46 it's considered the canonical example of a language requiring a turing machine 20:43:02 and there is no length limit for a b and c? 20:43:18 like: hah -- valid, aabc -- invalid 20:43:19 jix: correct.. it could definitely be more than 255 20:43:32 Keymaker: or bac invalid 20:43:37 since the order is wrong 20:43:40 hm? 20:43:44 what order? 20:43:50 it has to be the letters a b c in that order 20:43:59 ah 20:44:03 so abcabc is also not inthe language 20:44:29 what about 'hah'? 20:44:43 invalid 20:44:46 ok 20:44:53 sorry.. the alphabet is = {a, b, c} 20:45:00 only abc? 20:45:04 ok 20:45:06 but I think for the purposes of the contest that would be undefined 20:45:15 whatever, 20:45:19 abc is fine with me too 20:45:23 abc is good 20:45:27 yeah 20:45:32 I think it'd be okay for the contestant to choose any three ascii symbols (except spaces) 20:45:35 oh and the terminating character is 10 \n ok? 20:45:42 yeah 20:45:46 but it should be specified 20:45:50 naturally 20:45:56 i'll make the specification 20:45:56 perhaps it should be a b c then 20:46:02 I can write the spec 20:46:08 oh, ok then 20:46:14 another common form is 0^n 1^n 2^n 20:46:23 abc is better 20:46:34 ok, here's my suggestion: 20:46:46 1. write a brainfuck program that reads a file as input 20:46:48 I'd also like the form of output to be "accepted" or "rejected", but that may be too much trouble 20:47:07 no! thats good! 20:47:16 (because i'm working on bfgentext 20:47:24 2. read inputs, each separated from each other by unix new-line 20:47:29 okay, I'll review my notes and write up a format description of the language and examples 20:47:35 formal rather 20:47:40 3. output "valid" or "invalid" depending whether the data is 20:47:49 eof = no change 20:48:02 Keymaker: that's not traditional 20:48:11 Keymaker: the input is simply a string of characters 20:48:18 oh 20:48:20 Keymaker: eof will be 0 20:48:27 blah! 20:48:29 :D 20:48:34 or I should say \0 :) 20:48:42 perhaps \n is better 20:48:43 ok, so there will be only one input per program? 20:48:47 yes 20:48:49 so its aaabbbccc\0 ? 20:48:54 yeah \n is defnitelky better 20:48:55 thats not that easy to enter 20:49:01 \n is better 20:49:07 okay \n then :) 20:49:15 but entering it as file is rather easy 20:49:27 I'll write up a spec and then we can work out problems 20:49:35 especially if it's something like aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbccccccccccccccccccccccccccc 20:49:39 ok 20:49:46 calamari, this is excellent idea 20:49:50 thanks 20:50:19 i'll grab my brainfuck competition coding gloves 20:52:08 this'll be interesting! 20:52:19 are the abc always in that order? 20:53:08 should the program expect a^n b^m c^l \n or any input (like hah) 20:53:26 and how does the program tell whether it's valid or invalid input? 20:54:25 it outputs "accepted\n" or "rejected\n" 20:54:58 anyways, to mention, i think the input terminating would be better with 0, since eof = 0, one didn't need to enter anything 20:55:04 jix: ok 20:55:57 and thats why the terminator should be \n.. the output gets misplaced if the user doesn't press \n 20:56:22 i'm going to feed the input as file.. 20:56:43 \n shouldn't be a problem in a file 20:57:22 ..yep, it's not.. ..and most probably calamari, in case the input is long (which i suggest it should be), so he doesn't need to write 400 'a's etc.. 20:57:40 ..but \n looks ugly :) 20:57:52 but that's naturally just my (humble) opinion 20:57:57 \n is just one keypress more 20:58:22 but it doesn't look good in text editors.. 20:58:44 well, whatever calamari decides, i'm oppositing it unless it's 0. >xD 21:00:09 but anyways, i need to repeat once more: this competition idea is really good! seems like interesting 'test' or whatever, i haven't heard about it before. i wonder why i never realize good competition ideas like this.. 21:01:09 since calamari probably has more money than me, he should buy prizes for gold, silver, and bronze winners :D 21:01:35 something small like around-the-world trip.. 21:06:23 does anyone of you know string figures? 21:06:54 what are those? 21:07:13 take one long string loop and to hands with 5 fingers on each hand 21:07:30 yeah 21:07:36 then do some magical things and you get string figures 21:07:45 cool! 21:07:51 no, haven't heard of those before 21:09:03 here are figures for beginners: http://www.alysion.org/figures/introkids.htm 21:09:12 cheers 21:09:20 or with video clips: http://www.alysion.org/figures/introkids.htm 21:09:44 i'm able to "make" a dog that is able to walk if i extend 21:10:57 these look difficult.. 21:12:00 i want to make a photo of the dog (as i'm not able to find a description or photo of that figure on the internet) 21:12:07 but i can't find my webcam 21:12:25 :( 21:12:48 it's interesting that there's this kind of thing existing, and i have never heard of it 21:13:29 people have made all kinds of stuff.. 21:13:53 some get interested in some specific thing and dedicate all their freetime and effort on it 21:14:14 it's crazy.. :) ..but true. 21:15:17 string figures are very old.. (most are from the native americans) 21:15:40 yeah 21:28:49 back to lisp coding 21:29:05 calamari: how's the spec going? 21:29:21 yeah 21:29:41 by the way, any ideas for the competition starting date and deadline? 21:29:59 from now to in 5 mins? ;) 21:30:53 :) 21:32:09 -!- sp3tt____ has quit (Client Quit). 21:37:09 jix: going okay 21:37:17 jix: wrapping up the last few details 21:38:04 wrapping? aaargh! 21:38:28 oh and the bf implementation should use wrapping 21:38:45 :( 21:38:46 Keymaker's compo had no entries because it was nonwrapping 21:38:58 it was probably not because of that.. 21:39:02 it was 21:39:11 i was done implementing the important things using wrapping bf 21:39:12 bf golf has always had entries and it is non-wrapping ;) 21:39:45 and my laurent made an entry to my previous competition (and i got mine almost done) 21:39:57 it will be non-wrapping.. sorry jix :) 21:40:02 hrmpf 21:40:07 and the first one had a lot entries (and it was non-wrapping)! 21:40:14 :) 21:40:16 although I very much enjoy wrapping, it seems better to disallow it 21:40:18 but than make it nochange on decrement 0 instead of error 21:40:32 no! 21:40:40 * Keymaker suicides 21:41:18 sorry jix :) it's the bf golf tradition to not allow wrapping 21:41:22 hrmpf 21:41:23 ok 21:41:27 blame lament ;) 21:42:38 does bfdebug support nonwrapping? 21:42:54 because bfdebug is THE ULTIMATE bf coding utillity 21:43:31 just to note, before someone else does, the "and my laurent made" should be "and laurent made".. 21:44:27 bfdebug? 21:44:53 okay 21:44:54 ultimate bf debugger written by calamari (right?) 21:44:55 http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=387#387 21:45:05 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 21:45:08 jix: dunno about ultimate, but I really like it :) 21:45:29 had Keymaker a wrong button problem? 21:45:39 * Keymaker suicides 21:45:51 but he was able to talk after he wrote that 21:45:52 perhaps it took that long to die? 21:46:16 -!- Kmkr has joined. 21:46:20 grggh 21:46:24 you ok? 21:46:24 hrhr 21:46:28 i hate clicking the wrong window.. 21:46:36 * jix was right! 21:46:38 you had a vowel movement 21:46:54 i accidentally closed this window when trying to close that darn firefox 21:47:28 Rebdgreat: btw, I finished that Spagetti program last night and compiled it to c, so I can send you a bf interpreter using only if and goto :) 21:47:35 err Spaghetti 21:47:38 yummy 21:48:20 actually what I think would be great is an atari basic interpreter/compiler in c 21:48:58 I wrote a basic -> 6502 compiler for the Atari 5200, not sure if you were here when I mentioned that :) 21:49:08 yeah 21:49:16 how hard was that? 21:49:28 not too bad.. I didn't include expression parsing 21:49:34 it's a pretty lowlevel basic right? 21:49:36 yeah 21:49:58 I was able to include expression parsing, but I do not know how to optimize them yet 21:50:12 didn't send. 21:50:13 since the language was for writing games it needed to be fast 21:50:23 it must be my router 21:52:08 can you post it somewhere? 21:54:42 hmmm, seems the competition is on! 21:55:03 calamari: i'll report about in it in the brainfuck golf forums 21:55:14 (although nobody reads them anyways) 21:55:31 -!- GregorR has joined. 21:55:46 ssshhhh everybody, he's here 21:56:05 HEY GUYS U GOT MP3z?! 21:56:32 I CAN TRADE PR0N PM ME KTHXBYE 21:58:37 whatever gave them the idea that that's anything resembling clever? 21:58:49 lol 21:59:19 I type like that sometimes, but only because it's so idiotic it's funny. 21:59:36 Heheh 21:59:44 can you trade some corpse pics for some mp3s gregor? 22:00:05 ..and of course i'm not joking! 22:01:11 OMG NECROF33L334 IZ HOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!! 22:03:17 hey, cheers man, these pics are great.. i wish the local cemetery would as hot as the one over there.. 22:03:28 *would be 22:03:42 :o 22:08:37 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:08:51 -!- calamari has joined. 22:09:03 -!- calamari has quit (Client Quit). 22:09:07 -!- calamari has joined. 22:09:20 -!- calamari has left (?). 22:09:28 -!- calamari has joined. 22:09:34 hi 22:09:44 Hoi 22:09:51 linux is really stupid sometimes.. I bet I've been disconnected for about 15 minutes and didn't even know it 22:10:12 what was the last thing I said? 22:10:14 Nope, not even one. 22:10:17 it must be my router 22:10:44 I don't even have the last thing you said because you didn't talk after I connected. 22:10:55 calamari: i informed about the new competition in brainfuck golf forum 22:11:02 https://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1380003&forum_id=201037 22:11:44 Nov 05 14:51:15 any comments on the writeup? 22:11:44 Nov 05 14:51:25 I had to have made at least one error :) 22:11:44 Nov 05 14:53:08 Ahh.. non wrapping memory array.. didn't mention that 22:11:44 Nov 05 14:53:21 thanks Keymaker :) 22:11:44 Nov 05 14:53:30 * calamari is reading Keymakers spec 22:11:45 Nov 05 14:58:46 okay .. edited :) 22:11:47 Nov 05 14:59:25 I suppose I should provide a reference interpreter. 22:11:49 Nov 05 15:04:23 how are entries usually handled? 22:11:51 Nov 05 15:04:45 do they get sent somewhere, or are they held on to until the contest is over and checked against their MD'4's? 22:11:54 Nov 05 15:04:51 err MD5's 22:11:55 lol 22:11:58 Nov 05 15:06:11 Robdgreat: http://kidsquid.com/bf2.c 22:12:10 thanks 22:13:12 Keymaker: how are entry submissions usually handled? 22:13:38 I want to participate in the contest, so they can't be sent to me :) 22:14:07 thanks calamari 22:14:22 Robdgreat: yw.. have fun :) 22:14:44 calamari: first md5s are posted before the deadline 22:14:52 Kmkr: then checked after? 22:14:59 ok 22:15:01 then, after deadline, the actual entries 22:15:08 that's how I had it.. just wanted to make sure :) 22:15:26 and the judge, who can also enter the competition by himself too, checks the md5s match the submitted programs 22:15:52 the md5s should be taken from a program that has nothing else than brainfuck characters in it 22:16:04 that way the checking if it matches the md5 is easier 22:17:01 anyways, good luck! :) 22:17:38 good point 22:18:27 *be back in few minutes* 22:27:27 hmm 22:30:43 -!- marcan has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:31:11 -!- marcan has joined. 22:45:25 calamari: the empty string is always followed by a new-line, too? 22:45:56 -!- duerig has joined. 22:46:43 calamari: and can there be strings like "ab"? 22:47:04 or is there at least three characters if the string is not empty? 22:52:31 you can have ab, but it is not in L 22:52:46 grrgh 22:52:46 and there will always be a trailing newline.. 22:52:49 ok 22:53:01 I'll clarify the spec 22:53:05 to the md5's 22:53:09 ok 22:53:21 jix: what? 22:53:21 you're already ready?! 22:53:29 everyone should precede the code with some non bf characters to avoid bruteforcing the md5 22:53:56 like calculating the md5 of bla+++ instead of +++ .. because it's easy to brute force brainfuck md5s if the code is small 22:53:59 hmm, but all the codes will be probably at least 300 instructions 22:54:02 jix: why would it matter? 22:54:07 cheating.. 22:54:08 300 instructions is ok 22:54:17 but like 40 instructions is brute-force-able 22:54:25 jix: the first posted entry (if two are the same) is the winner 22:54:37 oh 22:54:39 jix: doubtful with printing acceppted or rejected that it will be under 40 22:54:42 forgot that :9 22:55:01 * jix too 22:55:11 i'll eat gregor's newest hat if someone can get it under 500 22:55:31 Again - my hats, you can't just eat them. 22:55:36 :D 22:55:39 delicious.. 22:55:53 Tastes like felt :-P 22:56:03 * jix is ripping a cd into iTunes 22:58:48 * GregorR is ripping jix into shreds 22:59:04 * Kmkr is tripping 22:59:41 oh, not really, it just looked good with those other words 23:00:13 updated the spec 23:00:16 ok 23:00:21 what about prizes? 23:00:27 also added that not all input must be read 23:00:28 you need to promise at least joy of winning ;) 23:00:31 prizes? 23:00:53 hehe hadn't occured to me 23:01:05 :) 23:01:28 np: Ten Years After - Rock Your Mama [ Undead Live '68 ] 23:01:29 can't be money as I am poor :( 23:01:56 There's always sexual favors! 23:02:17 GregorR: thanks for offering the prize 23:02:26 >_> 23:02:28 <_< 23:02:40 :D 23:03:14 calamari: non-materialistic prizes are fine as well ;) 23:03:27 calamari: paint a picture 23:03:37 for example something graphical "i won a^n b^n c^n brainfuck competition" button 23:04:08 that's what i have sent laurent from the two competitions :D 23:04:21 i beat the sword master 23:04:35 hm? 23:04:44 in monkey island 1 23:04:52 never visited that place 23:04:58 if you beat the sword master you win a t-shirt saying "i beat the sword master" 23:05:12 nice 23:05:29 also, a t-shirt would be awesome if calamari has extra money :) 23:05:44 for whoever wins it.. 23:05:55 or a graphic for printing a t-shirt ;) 23:06:05 hehe 23:06:23 lol, I have neither extra money or graphic design skills.. just see my webpage for proof of that :) 23:06:38 I have a spare abacus, how's that? 23:06:48 cool! 23:06:54 ultra-cool! 23:06:59 is it tc? 23:07:02 or fsa? 23:07:09 mmh, no idea 23:07:19 probably not turing-complete at least 23:08:00 well you can move the "things" on the abacus to any position with arbitrary precision.. 23:08:09 haha @ http://bash.org/?574542 23:09:22 ^ well, if it's in usa i can understand 23:09:57 they have signs FIRE IS HOT don't they? 23:10:04 Yes :-P 23:10:19 Warning: Hot coffee is hot! 23:10:43 better pour some coffee on myself and sue somebody 23:11:16 Warning: stopping to breath may result in lack of oxygen 23:11:26 lol 23:11:31 it can?! 23:12:04 in some special cases.. yes 23:12:15 SURGEON GENERALS WARNING: Breathing toxins is bad for you! 23:12:51 okay added prizes section :) 23:13:19 Warning: running around naked and crying "i'm genius" may cause people to think you aren't genius 23:13:56 WARNING: FATTY FOOD MAKES YOU FAT! 23:14:01 * calamari should test that theory sometime 23:14:12 which one? 23:14:16 yours 23:14:33 GregorR: doesn't true for me 23:14:41 me neither 23:14:50 i'm eating and eating and eating without getting FAT 23:14:52 * calamari is a metabolism machine.. 23:15:00 SHUT UP! I don't want to hear about your metabolism! 23:15:23 on irc no one can see your waist :) 23:15:33 * Kmkr eats cheeseburger 23:15:43 you people are *FAT* 23:15:46 * GregorR eats a Keymaker. 23:15:58 that's 100000 cheeseburgers at once! 23:16:12 * GregorR gets fat. 23:16:22 haha 23:16:27 * calamari points and laughs 23:17:46 okay.. I need a forum category for bf and similar langs 23:17:54 what should it be called? 23:18:02 (as compared to 2-d's) 23:18:30 hmmm.. 1 dimensional languages? 23:20:09 okay, that's what I'll call it then :) 23:20:21 ok 23:29:48 -!- ihope has joined. 23:32:11 hmm, I already made forum.kidsquid.com .. I'll just add esoforum.kidsquid.com 23:40:32 -!- ihope has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]"). 23:52:45 well. 23:52:54 good night everyone 23:53:00 zzzZZZz 23:53:04 -!- Kmkr has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 23:59:02 -!- GregorR has quit ("NO FOREWARNING, I just quit!"). 2005-11-06: 00:11:25 Jix, last night you said that you refused to use C++ anymore. What was troubling you? 00:14:16 something didn't work as i expected and i was unable to find the bug 00:15:15 some people say they hate dynamic languages because they have too less compile time checks.. i hate c++ because the runtime error msgs doesn't help 00:15:15 Want me to take a look? I'm enough of a C++ weenie that I can usually spot even obscure bugs. 00:15:50 That is true. If you want decent error reporting in C++, you have to roll your own. :( 00:16:03 it's something with obscure memory management i just don't want to care about MM... 00:16:09 that's why i'm using lisp now 00:16:29 lisp is more intuitive for me 00:17:03 I see. 00:17:40 I don't suppose you'd let me look at the code that was troubling you? 00:18:08 i'd have you to send 3 c++ files that probably wont compile... 00:18:27 i have no idea where the bug is and my fixing attempts resulted in even more bugs 00:18:49 you'd probably have to rewrite the whole code too fix it 00:19:04 I'd still be curious to see. If you want, you can just copy and paste them into the following form: http://www.xmission.com/~tyrecius/mail.html 00:19:06 and i've done more in lisp know that i did in c++ for that project 00:19:08 And then I could read them. 00:22:08 done 00:23:00 Thanks. 00:35:22 I see the problem. 00:35:49 And I see why you wanted a GC. :) 00:39:53 The problem is that all of the pointers in your RHS object come from the vector in 'vector snodes = current_node->subnodes();'. This is destroyed at the end of every 'step()' call. Thats why you get dangling pointers. 00:40:11 And with a proper GC, all of that is moot 'cuz the GC will keep them around for you. 00:43:05 objc memory management would be ok too 00:48:51 I am a bit puzzled about why your priority queue holds pointers rather than just the objects themselves. 00:49:39 i tried every pointer not pointer combination 00:50:05 I see. 00:50:58 Well, I don't blame you for being frustrated in a situation like that. It looks like it just calls out for a GC. :) 00:51:10 I hope you are having more fun doing it in LISP. :) 00:51:20 i have 00:51:41 Nifty. And thanks for letting me sate my curiosity. 00:57:00 HAH i just noticed a big error in my algorithm and it was just a little work to fix it! 00:57:11 -!- lirthy has joined. 00:57:16 moin lirthy 00:58:38 duerig: you arn't on the esolang map 01:18:00 -!- J|x has joined. 01:26:55 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 01:26:58 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 01:27:17 jix: esolang map? Eh? 01:27:36 see topic 01:27:43 - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - 01:29:42 Interesting. 01:32:08 I'm on it now. 01:32:19 Unfortunately, I'm not from anywhere interesting. :) 01:38:58 -!- lirthy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:52:05 !bf8 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<-.+. 01:52:12 test 01:52:14 HAH 01:52:19 successfully ported 01:53:33 wait the numbers of > is wrong 01:54:36 ah was a stupid typo 01:55:23 hmm there seems to be a bug in the priority queue 02:05:33 queueueueueueue! 02:14:12 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.---------------.++++++++++++++.+. 02:14:18 !bf8 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.---------------.++++++++++++++.+. 02:14:26 test 02:14:37 done with rhs in lisp 02:17:04 !bf8 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++..>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++.+++++..--------.-------.++++++++++++++.>.<----.---------.>.<----.+++..+++++++++++++.>.<---.-.>.<++++++.------------.---.>.<++++++++++++++++++.----------------------.+++++++++++..++. 02:17:38 99 bottles of beer on the walln 02:19:08 and that is the shortest code for that string without looping 02:19:43 What exactly is RHS? 02:20:10 Right Hand Side 02:20:25 I realize that. But what is it in the context of bf? 02:20:30 its just the right part of the code (the left is generated using genetic algorithms) 02:20:35 in context of bf it's nothing 02:21:07 in context of bf output code breading it's partitioning the program into data-cell-initialisation (left hand) and outputing (right hand) 02:21:19 and without left hand data is initialized to 0,0,0.... 02:21:28 Hmm. I see. 02:22:30 So you wrote a search program which tries to find the shortest bf code which will initialize a set of cells to particular values, right? 02:23:22 no 02:23:46 i wrote a program to search the shortest code to output a givin string using a givin memory data 02:23:51 given 02:23:59 Oh. 02:24:00 I see. 02:25:41 It is interesting that you had to use a graph search algorithm for that. I would have naively thought that it was a simpler problem than that. 02:26:15 But I can see why you chose to do it that way in retrospect. 02:26:48 if you choose the shortest one with each step you may have to choose longer one later because you messed up the memory with the first shorter one 02:27:03 *nod* 02:27:31 * jix has to refine the estimation function 02:28:50 Hmm. I notice that there is no looping in your programs. 02:29:15 there is 02:29:18 in subnodes 02:29:38 Er. I meant in the bf programs that you tried out. 02:29:43 ah right 02:29:58 So looping just didn't happen to be advantageous in those circumstances? 02:30:15 looping would make A* kinda impossible.. 02:30:35 i don't have a limited set of subnodes then 02:30:53 Hmmm... 02:30:58 there are some special cases and i'm going to take advantage of them 02:31:14 That could be a big issue. That means that you probably aren't being minimal. 02:31:25 Hmm. Let me think. 02:31:42 take a look at most output codes.. the right side is like 90% loop less 02:34:53 But there are all kinds of places where [<+>-] might stand in for arbitrarily long '+' strings. 02:35:27 brb 02:35:30 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 02:35:33 Or [<->-], or having a different number of '<' and '>'. 02:35:54 Er I mean the having more than one '<' and more than one '>' even if they are the same. 02:36:22 And that is just something off the top of my head. It seems like there might be any number of situations. 02:36:28 But that might make the whole problem untractable. 02:36:44 thats the point.. there might be any number of situations 02:37:24 -!- calaptop has joined. 02:37:33 re's 02:37:58 Hmmm... 02:38:00 -!- calaptop has changed nick to calamari. 02:38:21 Let me think about this. There may be some clever way we can get the best of both worlds. 02:40:05 i have an idea! 02:40:12 split the output into multiple rhs and lhs 02:40:31 the lhs can contain arbitrary code including all possible loop constructs 02:45:43 I thought that the lhs was generated0. 02:45:48 manually. 02:45:54 atm yes 02:46:03 later it's generated using genetic algorithms 02:46:08 Ah. 02:46:16 Why not do the rhs with GAs too? 02:46:25 If we're in approximation-ville anyhow? 02:46:44 because it would take too long to generate an output that actually prints the wanted string 02:47:19 Hmm... Su 02:47:31 Gah. Cat on the keyboard. :) 02:48:21 Hmm... Suppose that we start out with something relatively naive that outputs the data. Then we have output-preserving mutations? I'm not sure exactly how to do those, but if we could, then I think we'd be home free. 02:49:50 Grr.. I dunno. Combination would be really hard. 02:49:55 Let me think some more. :( 02:50:18 rule of making super cool programs: 02:50:24 make them working first 02:50:32 then make them super cool ;) 02:50:36 Hahaha. Granted. 02:50:44 But you've already got it working. :) 02:51:05 not all parts only a simple rhs not a rhs with good estimates 02:51:53 * Sgep is going to check out ReactOS's LiveCD... 02:52:33 does that have a bash terminal, or is it tryign to be as windows as possible? 02:52:43 -!- Sgep has quit. 02:52:57 I may never know.. hehe :) 02:57:14 -!- lirthy has joined. 02:57:18 Hmm. I've got an idea. 02:57:28 You could do a Simulated Annealer. 02:59:08 g'night 02:59:13 There would be a small number of ways that you could do a one-off modification of the bf code: insert a bounded loop, insert some number of left shifts or right shifts, insert some number of increments or decrements. And you could have a greedy completion. 02:59:16 it's 4am here... 02:59:16 Ummm... 02:59:18 Ok. 02:59:32 Goodnight. 02:59:36 And good luck with your RHS. 02:59:41 thx 02:59:42 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 02:59:44 caaaaaaaaaaaaalimari 02:59:47 er 02:59:53 blah you know what I mean 02:59:59 kaaaaaaaaahn 03:00:00 ! 03:00:05 pretty much 03:00:10 Hahaha 03:00:26 robbbbbbbbbbbdgreat 03:00:29 there you are 03:00:46 hey is there something available to convert 6502 assembly to x86? 03:01:05 robdgreat: I need a better chat program.. wonder if there any any console chats that allow scrollback 03:01:19 -!- Sgep has joined. 03:01:24 The one I'm using does. 03:01:34 Or rather it uses my own console's scrollback. 03:01:48 robdgreat: I don't know of any automatic tools.. what are you trying to do? 03:01:55 duerig: cool, which app? 03:02:02 ircii 03:02:09 blah that's what I'm using hehe 03:02:18 my scrollback must be busted 03:02:21 I have a disassembler listing of a rom image, I might take this opportunity to port it manually 03:02:28 and learn a thing or two 03:02:31 or 80 03:02:44 atari 800? 03:02:57 yeah 03:03:05 What terminal are you using, calamari? 03:03:13 if you have it in binary form you can run it on the atari800 emu 03:03:19 I'm gonna make a native atari basic interpreter 03:03:19 nope 03:03:23 don't want to have to use the emu 03:03:25 I have the emu 03:03:31 duerig: not sure what you mean.. I'm using getty 03:03:50 duerig: I'm not in x if that's what you're asking 03:04:18 Your using windows? 03:04:26 duerig: no, linux 03:04:35 Ah. A text only screen. 03:04:37 Ok. 03:04:38 duerig: I call it ctrl-alt-f1 mode.. not sure of the real name of it 03:05:03 In that case have you tried shift-pgup, ctl-pgup, and alt-pgup to see if they'll scrill? 03:05:12 Er scroll? 03:05:24 yep 03:05:39 Ok. Then it is your terminal. 03:05:46 shift-pgup doesn't do anything, the other combos give ~ 03:05:51 I'm not sure how to configure the text-only terminal on linux. 03:06:04 duerig: no prob.,. neither do I :) 03:06:26 My advice: Use x, then you can use an xterm and those are very configurable. :-) 03:06:37 can't.. I have 26mb of disk space free :) 03:06:43 Hahaha. 03:06:44 Ok. 03:07:00 I was thinking of setting up svgalib tho.. I understand links works with that :) 03:07:35 if I can get a halfway decent web browser working I may decide to zip up the windows intall and that'll give me more room to play 03:08:52 calamari, http://www.unixguide.net/linux/faq/07.06.shtml talks about messing around with the kernel source to change scroll-back behaviour. 03:09:01 Maybe you can do that and recompile the kernel. 03:09:59 thanks 03:12:50 ahh it's called a vc :) 03:13:00 "virtual console" 03:20:28 I see. 03:20:37 That might be a good search term for google. :) 03:24:32 that doc helped a lot actually, thanks 03:24:50 I have 6 vc's, and maybe that's why I can't scroll back... no remaining video memory 03:27:44 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:30:32 brb 03:30:34 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 03:31:13 -!- calamari has joined. 03:33:23 Did it help? 03:33:46 Be sure to make enough text to run off the top of the screen. Otherwise it won't scroll back regardless. 03:59:38 lock picking is interesting. 04:43:48 lament, yes. But of limited utility. 05:14:10 duerig: well yes & no 05:14:17 it gave me a lot more scrollback 05:14:27 however, I found out what happens to my scroll 05:14:39 if I switch to another vc and back I lose all my scrollback 05:16:40 then don't ever switch to another vc 05:16:43 Simple. 05:16:45 hehehe 05:41:41 -!- Sgep has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:03:37 -!- Sgep has joined. 06:49:48 -!- laz_ has joined. 06:51:29 -!- laz_ has left (?). 07:07:58 -!- marcan has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:33 -!- marcan has joined. 08:07:28 calamari: Hmm. That is unfortunate. Let me see if I can find a remedy. 08:11:19 An imperfect solution would be to auto-log to a particular file. Then you could just 'less' the file. That would allow searching as well. But much less convenient than just scrollback. 08:13:37 -!- lirthy has quit (")("). 08:14:12 -!- lirthy has joined. 08:30:43 duerig: :) thanks for the suggestions. I'll figure something out. 08:31:19 links with svgalib seems to be working fine, although I guess the driver for my card only gives 256 colors 08:34:07 Yeah. The more I look at this, the more certain I become that you'd need to edit code in the kernel to get what you want. 08:34:16 Sorry I couldn't be of more service. 08:35:17 I'm going to stop looking now. However, some promising keywords I discovered were mdacon vgacon vga-text-console and linux-frame-buffer. I was reading the webpage http://www.digitalhermit.com/linux/hiresconsole.html 08:35:23 That is if you want to pursue my leads further. 08:35:27 Take care. 08:43:52 -!- GregorR has joined. 08:46:49 -!- GregorR has quit (Client Quit). 08:53:36 -!- GregorR has joined. 09:01:12 -!- GregorR has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 09:04:30 okay, past 2am.. must go to bed :) 09:04:48 thanks again duerig for your research & links 09:04:58 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 09:06:43 -!- Robdgre[a]t has joined. 09:06:43 -!- Robdgreat has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:07:14 * Sgep NEEDS to leave now 09:09:18 -!- Sgep has quit. 10:35:10 -!- duerig has left (?). 10:36:22 -!- mtve has joined. 11:13:54 -!- jix has joined. 12:03:50 !bf8 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++.------.+++++.>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<---------.+++++++++++++++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++.+++++++.----------.-.---------.>+.>++++++++++. 12:04:08 moin everyone! 12:06:14 !bf8 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++.------.+++++. 12:06:26 moin 12:21:28 the lisp implementation is so much faster than the ruby one 12:55:08 !bf8 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+.+++++.------------.---.+++++++++++++.>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<++.---------------.++++++++++++++.+.>++++++++++++++... 12:55:27 Another test... 12:55:52 0.048 seconds of real time 0.035805 seconds of user run time 13:03:18 -!- jix has left (?). 13:03:23 -!- jix has joined. 13:16:32 test 13:30:14 -!- Keymaker has joined. 13:30:48 me likes new opera 8.5 (haven't bothered upgrading until now) 13:32:22 i don't like opera 13:32:23 moin Keymaker 13:36:25 hello 13:36:31 don't like opera?! 13:46:35 grhh. i haven't managed to do anything yet! i've been awake for six hours 13:48:15 HAHA 13:48:17 ;) 13:54:47 :) 13:55:19 grhh. i should learn some valid web designing.. 13:55:31 any good tutorials for css? 13:55:43 something that would tell how to do the stuff without tables 13:55:54 pha... who needs tutorials... 13:55:57 why does everyone complain about tables? 13:56:12 well, i don't know the commands 13:56:14 because tables are for tabular (?) data not for layout 13:56:20 hmh 13:56:23 grrr 13:56:49 just learn it by looking at css of csszengarden 13:57:05 and use the w3schools reference 13:57:30 perhaps i should just use tables.. 13:57:45 they're the best! 13:58:48 no 13:59:07 :( 13:59:21 they make it hard to change the design they make it hard to print only the content of the page instead of the design (which is maybe not suited for printing..) 13:59:37 so..? :p 13:59:50 use what you want ;;) 13:59:56 wheee! 14:01:07 jix, know what font that is? http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/184/184.css&page=0 14:01:31 it's nice font and common in blogs and stuff, i'd like to know what it is 14:01:53 font:11px/32px Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; 14:02:05 cheers 14:02:10 on your computer it's the first font in the list that is installed 14:02:22 ok 14:05:25 how they make those gradients? 14:10:05 images 14:10:14 oh 14:26:35 -!- int-e has joined. 14:28:26 hello int-e 14:28:51 noticed there's a new brainfuck competition going on, organized by calamari 14:29:08 ? 14:29:43 Keymaker: yes. I still get notifications from the sourceforge forum. 14:30:03 it has a cool prize! 14:30:12 Keymaker: so thanks to you I know about it. 14:31:27 :) 14:36:57 hmmm, can one have different favicons to different pages? 14:38:30 heh. wikipedia says: in the section of the document. 14:39:22 while the 'classic' favicon.ico is limited to the root 'directory' of the web site. 14:39:32 ok 15:01:39 -!- Sgep has joined. 15:07:46 -!- Robdgre[a]t has changed nick to Robdgreat. 15:30:09 -!- ihope has joined. 15:31:05 I just made a binary lambda calculus syntax, which doesn't look very nice. 15:32:10 program: 1[function] 15:32:11 function: 0[function][function] or 11[identifier] or 10[lambda] 15:32:13 lambda: [identifier][function] 15:32:14 identifier: [pidentifier]11 15:32:16 pidentifier: [null] or 0[pidentifier] or 10[pidentifier] 15:32:40 * Robdgreat head asplode. 15:32:59 :-) 15:35:25 Of course, it's not very efficient: the smallest syntactically valid program is number 447. 15:37:57 what's that do? 15:39:07 It's the identity function. 15:42:40 The K combinator is 3535, and the S combinator is too big to convert into decimal at the moment. 15:43:15 Aha. S is 398949562099. 15:44:53 why do you distinguish programs and functions? 15:45:19 ah, to allow 0 prefixes. ok 15:50:49 shouldn't that be 948705375987 to make a program? 15:52:50 Um, yes. 15:54:18 and the K is missing a pair of 11 ... 15:55:46 (110111001111 = program lambda 11 lambda 011 identifier ) 15:55:58 Why so it is. So that means it's 14143? 15:56:13 yep 15:58:02 Okay. So does anybody know how to make the S combinator in Lisp? 16:05:20 I'd say it's no fun, due to lack of partial application in Lisp 16:05:52 You mean currying is wonky? 16:06:31 (defun s (f g x) (funcall (funcall f x) (funcall g x))) works if all your functions are curried. 16:07:08 obviously, this s is *not* curried. 16:07:57 Is there a way to curry it? 16:10:58 (defun curry3 (f) (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (lambda (z) (funcall f x y z))))) 16:11:03 (curry3 #'s) 16:11:21 I don't know about any builtin ways, but I have very little experience with Lisp 16:14:11 * (funcall (funcall (funcall (curry3 #'s) (curry2 #'+)) #'1+) 5) 16:14:11 11 16:14:14 it's no fun. 16:14:56 compare to Haskell: 16:14:59 Prelude> let s f g x = (f x) (g x) in s (+) (1+) 5 16:14:59 11 16:15:24 Hmm. 16:15:33 * ihope tosses Lisp in the trash can 16:16:40 lisp isn't good for lambda calculus 16:16:41 Lisp is cool, but it's not a functional programming language. Its greatest power is its Macro facility. 16:16:55 i'm using lisp for my new bfgentext 16:17:10 because c++ has no gc and ugly syntax and ruby is too slow 16:18:29 C++ is a very useful high level assembler 16:18:33 * int-e giggles 16:22:01 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:22:33 -!- ihope has joined. 16:22:39 Ack. 16:27:33 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:30:15 i really like this new opera 16:47:30 grhh. must go 16:47:34 bye 16:47:37 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 16:49:30 -!- mtve has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:43:46 -!- mtve has joined. 18:24:10 -!- Keymaker has joined. 18:31:48 ugh.. why every place is filled with sound, animation, video, pictures?! 18:32:17 why every place allows user to have 300 mb of space for pictures, music, video?! 18:33:40 why everything is so personal these days? people have blogs, make own podcasts, have hundred pictures of theirselves.. 18:35:41 I don't know. 18:47:32 o-k 18:47:36 :) 19:40:44 nite 19:40:46 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 19:43:21 -!- int-e has left (?). 21:35:10 -!- GregorR has joined. 21:46:13 -!- jix has left (?). 21:47:53 -!- calamari has joined. 22:13:50 hi 22:16:04 Hoi 22:19:40 HI!!!11ONE 22:22:08 GregorR: do you know how to use autoscan? 22:22:19 Yup. 22:22:26 what is configure.ac ? 22:22:46 It's the M4 script used to create the configure script. 22:22:55 autoscan should create configure.scan 22:23:27 autom4te: configure.ac: no such file or directory 22:23:27 autoscan: /usr/bin/autom4te failed with exit status: 1 22:23:47 What's that the output to? 22:23:50 OH 22:23:51 Heheheh 22:24:02 That's obnoxious output that autoscan produces for no reason :) 22:24:04 I hate thta. 22:24:06 *that 22:24:09 You can ignore it. 22:24:21 ahh thank you 22:24:37 it did create the scan file :) I was just worried I'd done something wrong 22:24:40 You have to modify configure.scan to your liking, then rename it configure.ac 22:24:58 It's because autoscan can also tell you how to update configure.ac 22:34:50 how about automake? :) 22:35:05 Yes, I know how to use that too. 22:35:23 That being said, if you want to use them in combination, you should make the .am files before running autoscan. 22:35:45 ahh, that makes sense 22:35:57 I was wondering why I was having to put that stuff in manually 22:35:57 After all, autoscan does /scan/ :) 22:36:32 either I'm terrible at searching or the docs for this stuff are nonexistant 22:36:42 The docs are quite excellent. 22:36:50 http://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/ 22:36:52 http://www.gnu.org/software/automake/ 22:37:28 thank you 23:07:19 A lot of exciting talk here :-P 23:17:27 got bfigolf.c bfstrip.c done.. just figureing out the auto* stuff 23:17:36 figureing -e 23:17:43 Heh 23:17:48 afk... 23:40:54 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:50:17 -!- kipple has joined. 23:57:44 -!- pgimeno has joined. 2005-11-07: 00:22:51 -!- Sgep has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:28:55 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:35:05 -!- GregorR has quit ("/me disappears!"). 01:12:55 -!- Sgep has joined. 01:31:59 -!- agw has joined. 01:54:27 -!- Robdgreat has quit. 01:57:24 -!- agw has quit (Connection timed out). 02:01:26 -!- lirthy has quit (")("). 02:13:53 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:14:45 -!- calamari has joined. 02:31:07 -!- GregorR_ has changed nick to GregorR. 02:35:29 -!- calamari_ has joined. 02:43:16 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:16:28 -!- graue has joined. 03:16:31 hello 03:16:42 I am thinking of rewriting the 1L specification to make it more general 03:18:17 like whatever character appears in the top left will be a 'space', and anything else will be a 'turning wall', so literal spaces won't need to be used 03:20:35 Hmm 03:25:55 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:XEyeStCdNYCSmall.jpg < Can anybody else get this? 03:26:11 My roomate can't, I think it's easy... 03:26:54 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_imaging#Side-by-side < the article with info on how too view it. 03:31:39 is that esolang-related? 03:32:33 No, but it's esoteric ;) 03:38:52 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:38:56 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:43:50 not really 03:43:55 it's just one of those 3D imaging things 03:44:10 Heh 03:45:57 what does it take to get an esolang standard to be blessed by ENSI? 03:45:57 -!- calamari_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:46:12 Probably just asking :-P 03:46:33 whom do I ask? 03:49:13 lol, that's a very good question ;) 03:49:27 Without a very good answer I'll bet. 03:53:08 -!- Arrogant has joined. 03:53:47 -!- Sgep has quit. 03:59:54 -!- calamari has joined. 04:01:02 -!- calamari has quit (Client Quit). 04:13:12 -!- calamari has joined. 04:34:56 1L standard draft: http://www.voxelperfect.net:3875/esolang/1l_a105.html 04:35:01 comments, anyone? 04:35:45 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:09:43 no comments, eh? well, I'll check the log later 05:09:47 -!- graue has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:12:25 -!- Robdgreat has joined. 05:19:20 -!- Arrogant has quit (" Like VS.net's GUI? Then try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-"). 05:31:02 For no particular reason (actually, requested in another channel), here's a picture of me with my hair down: http://www.codu.org/hats/Hair-med.jpg 05:31:40 how ironic 05:31:44 it's in /hats 05:31:47 but there's no hat 05:31:49 Heheh 05:31:53 It's on hats.php *shrugs* 05:40:24 -!- calamari has joined. 05:40:36 hi 05:40:46 'lo 05:41:38 Since calamari missed the worthless link :P 05:41:45 For no particular reason (actually, requested in another channel), here's a picture of me with my hair down: http://www.codu.org/hats/Hair-med.jpg 05:41:49 GregorR: I've been messing around with this packaging for hours.. I'm wondering if you'd be willing to take a look at it? It's 2 c files each compiles into a separate program 05:42:08 Sure. 05:43:10 thanks 06:58:02 http://kidsquid.com/programs/bf/bfgolf.tar.gz 06:58:22 okay, need to go to bed.. thanks again Gregor 06:58:38 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:23:11 http://www.codu.org/GIMPregor.jpg 08:23:14 I love the GIMP :P 08:44:11 -!- lindi- has joined. 11:23:59 -!- lirthy has joined. 11:31:41 -!- jix has joined. 11:31:46 moin everyone! 12:13:02 -!- jix has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC for those that like to be different"). 12:29:55 -!- Keymaker has joined. 12:31:19 hello 12:52:52 rhhh. two forums.. 12:52:55 i want only one! 12:53:34 esoteric forums are a good thing 12:54:08 however, i wish there'd be only one of them. two is too much. either i have to post everything twice or select which one i want to use 12:55:46 graue's forum has better design, but it doesn't have the possibility to register. calamari's forum is the traditional phpbb that has all the good stuff but it looks crap! (don't take this personally when you read this calamari ;)) 12:56:46 i hate the traditional phpbb design. if you'd install some modification/theme/skin it'd look much better 12:57:51 anyways, and i like the address of graue's board more 12:58:22 but, calamari's board is easier to navigate.. there are categories.. 12:58:44 well, i need to think which one to join, unless the boards join their forces 13:00:04 or well, one can't join graue's forum, but i meant with that which one to start using more 13:03:06 -!- kipple has joined. 13:10:52 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 13:11:26 -!- lirthy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:13:26 <{^Raven^}> hey peeps 13:16:13 hello 13:19:15 raven: how is project you showed me long time ago.. ? 13:19:21 *the 13:49:08 <{^Raven^}> Keymaker: I keep forgetting to email the maintainer and ask permission 13:49:41 :D 13:49:45 do it sooon! 13:50:06 it'll be great addition to the community forum, map, irc log list.. 13:50:13 <{^Raven^}> Ravens are known for being bird-brained 13:50:18 :) 13:50:23 by the way, seen the esomap yet? 13:50:36 frappr.com/esolang 13:50:37 <{^Raven^}> No, what/where is it? 13:51:09 it's a map where esoprogrammers can place their location 13:51:39 (and it's located at frappr.com/esolang, although i said that already) 13:52:55 and another news is that calamari is running a brainfuck competition ;) 13:54:10 and it has a physical prize as well! a spare abacus (with 9 rods) he has 13:54:21 <{^Raven^}> hehe, that's acool map 13:54:46 <{^Raven^}> I spotted calamari's forums 13:54:52 ok 14:03:56 hmm 14:04:05 i'll go.. 14:04:10 bye 14:04:14 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 14:11:13 * {^Raven^} is now on the esomap :) 14:41:14 -!- Keymaker has joined. 14:43:20 well, i didn't bother going to record shop, afterall.. 14:43:31 i'll just order the records via net.. 14:43:33 :) 14:48:49 <{^Raven^}> Keymaker: was adding myself to the map (on the other pc) 14:49:09 ok :) 14:54:45 <{^Raven^}> there was a real post on the FoBF mailing list recently (I've never seen a real one before) 14:55:59 hmmm 14:56:07 must check, haven't checked for a while 14:56:09 link? 14:56:45 it was calamari about the contest 14:58:09 oh 14:58:39 kipple: they haven't added our beer programs nor replied me yet.. 14:59:11 they're probably busy with other things then 15:00:08 yeah 15:00:27 ..but what kind of computing could be more important? 15:14:54 <{^Raven^}> they're probably adding DRM to esolangs so we can't pirate commercial INTERCAL apps anymore 15:16:51 haha 15:20:45 -!- graue has joined. 15:20:48 hello 15:21:31 hi 15:22:24 seen the new 1L spec yet? 15:22:30 no 15:22:45 http://www.voxelperfect.net:3875/esolang/1l_a105.html <-- the draft 15:22:47 been away, and hasn't read the logs 15:23:53 I'm looking for comments, since I may have stupidly left something out 15:27:03 looks ok to me 15:28:23 that is good 15:29:15 hello.. 15:29:19 let's see.. 15:32:59 any examples? 15:34:39 just the 'A' program 15:34:53 ah 15:34:58 http://esolangs.org/files/1l/src/1l_a/a.1l 15:35:20 also a tidier version at http://infestationgardens.net/files/a4.1l 15:35:37 heh 15:35:59 also... hang on a sec 15:36:05 ok 15:36:18 ...a graphical version at http://infestationgardens.net/files/a.1l.png 15:36:42 nice (thanks to opera's zoom!) 15:37:51 the idea behind this exercise was to show that whether or not a language is "non-textual" is a matter of the implementation more than the language itself, just like no language is necessarily compiled or interpreted 15:44:07 graue, nice writings :) 15:44:21 -!- pgimeno has quit ("This is the default quit message"). 15:44:25 thanks :) 15:44:59 the universe faq was useful, i know now everything i need to :) 15:45:10 oh, you mean those writings, heh 15:45:35 -!- pgimeno has joined. 15:46:00 hehe 15:46:06 the site has interesting simplicity 16:04:18 speaking of simplicity 16:04:35 why do you want the esoforum to support registration? 16:04:42 it already remembers your name, doesn't it? 16:07:00 registration is nice if it allows email notification when someone replies to your posts 16:07:35 what I really like about the current forum is the css-feed which allows me to browse it (and even post to it) in Thunderbird 16:07:37 personally i hate e-mail notification.. 16:07:42 hmm... you can load the RSS feed into your RSS reader, maybe :) 16:07:46 oops, too slow 16:07:55 but anyways, in forum with registeration it's easier to post 16:08:04 why's that? 16:08:09 i don't know 16:08:23 and one can be certain no idiot comes and starts to use your name 16:08:39 although that probably doens't happen in these circles, luckily 16:08:44 hmm, the board actually does have a feature to deal with this, without registration 16:08:52 really? 16:09:09 if you type "Keymaker##secretphrase" it'll add some stuff after your name which can't be produced unless someone enters the same secret phrase 16:09:35 hmm 16:09:36 I'm not sure if that is working correctly, though (there seems to be a weird problem with FreeBSD's crypt() call) 16:09:51 i think it makes that stuff automatically somehow 16:10:02 i have never written anything after the name but it has added there some random stuff 16:10:32 well, that's the "ID: " part which is derived from your IP address, but I mean right next to your name 16:10:33 no, i was wrong 16:10:35 yeah 16:10:46 i was just about to say that 16:11:33 well, as said, both forums have good sides, but it's annoying to have two of them 16:38:35 I don't like phpBB-type registration/profiles/post counts/etc.; it makes it about people rather than ideas 16:48:51 the "post too long. click here to view the whole post" thing is annoying me; think I should lengthen the length limit before that kicks in? 16:49:05 and by the way: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ 17:05:57 i don't understand :) 17:07:16 what do you not understand? 17:07:59 that why languages can't be nontextual 17:09:11 it's because the format of the source code is really just a way to read symbols that comprise the program 17:09:44 if you say "in my programming language, red does X and green does Y and blue does Z", I can make a 2D textual language where $ does X and & does Y and ! does Z, and it's really the same language 17:11:17 uh, yes.. but if language is defined so that the source code is a picture, it seems very non-textual to me 17:11:44 if you make a piet interpreter that uses some ascii i wouldn't say it's not really a piet interpreter 17:11:55 exactly; I wouldn't either 17:12:14 oops, i accidentally inserted 'not'.. 17:12:23 if a language definition says "the source code is a picture", it is actually saying something about how interpreters should work, not about the language 17:12:57 hmm. but the language consist of instructions. and the instructions are represented as colours in image.. 17:14:11 Piet does get points for using a lightness cycle and hue cycle, so that the color representation makes more sense than a textual representation would 17:14:36 well, unnecessary is non-textial, at least 17:14:47 compare Braincopter, which would make much more sense to represent textually 17:14:55 s/compare/contrast/ 17:31:50 -!- mtve has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:35:57 -!- mtve has joined. 17:55:27 bye. 17:55:29 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 18:08:50 -!- calamari has joined. 18:37:50 moin calamari 18:45:29 hi graue 18:45:33 how's it going? 18:45:39 it's going all right 18:47:04 * calamari should start working on his golf entry :) 18:48:07 oh cool.. didn't know this mode http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/subback.html existed 18:48:15 can that be the default starting mode? 18:52:49 Ada! 18:52:56 Aha even! 18:53:07 It's actually a forum! 18:53:49 it can if you bookmark that page, I guess 18:54:19 want me to add a link from http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/ to it? 18:55:53 yeah 18:57:29 done 18:57:53 cool.. that helps a lot 19:01:32 * calamari ceases the forum mirroring 19:02:53 btw, when I go to a long thread, it'll skip .. the forum thread skips from 1 to 12 19:03:02 can that be disabled? 19:03:16 entry 1 to 12, I should have said 19:04:02 -!- jix has joined. 19:04:12 hi jix 19:08:40 calamari: hmm? it's not doing that for me 19:13:47 graue: http://kidsquid.com/skip.png 19:15:54 WTF?! 19:17:34 hi... 19:19:05 WTF?! WTF? 19:20:06 since you like bash: http://bash.org/?6460 19:23:59 my idea for a forum: 19:24:22 you can add keywords to threads (brainfuck 2d new-language etc.) and can filter for them 19:24:30 no need for hard coded categories than 19:24:56 i like the idea of using a simple forum over a compilicated (and often buggy (?)) phpBB 19:25:12 but the current forum is a bit too simple 19:25:19 i think registered users are good 19:26:35 one thing I wondered with the current forum.. seems easy to impersonate someone 19:27:23 yeah 19:27:25 "post by calamari: I'm a doodoo head" 19:27:37 well, 1) if I can get the crypt()-on-FreeBSD thing worked out, you would be able to securely identify yourself, 2) who's gonna bother? 19:27:41 Robdgreat: and it'd be true most of the time hehe 19:27:46 LOL 19:27:47 but most of all, 3) it's about ideas, not people 19:27:58 you can't impersonate an idea, now can you? 19:29:36 graue: does your forum offer a serach feature? 19:30:14 Google does (if it's started indexing the site yet) 19:31:08 anyone know an implementation of crypt() in Perl (or, is anyone willing to write one)? 19:31:13 is it easy to modify the output? I could code up a quick html form for the google search if you'd like 19:32:28 I need a crypt() in Perl to get some stuff working correctly... it just needs to implement the traditional DES-based algorithm with 4096 possible salts 19:33:11 is it possible to add my keyword and keyword filter idea? 19:33:39 and then add a list of the most used keywords on the top of the page 19:33:40 graue: there is a crypt function 19:34:12 here is part of the example from programming perl: 19:34:47 if (crypt($word, $pwd) ne $pwd) { die "Sorry...\n"; } else { print "ok\n"; } 19:35:21 calamari: yeah but it uses the libc crypt 19:35:27 yeah 19:36:59 FreeBSD sucks: http://wakaba.c3.cx/sup/kareha.pl/1130723862/59-66 19:38:23 if the script could call a well-behaved crypt() then you would be able to identify yourself securely using "name##secretword", i.e., you'd have all the imposter-preventing power of registration 19:39:27 Good thing that's so intuitive >_> 19:49:49 google's site search doesn't seem to be able to restrict the search any more than "esoteric.voxelperfect.net" 19:51:01 it is but the forum isn't indexed yet 19:51:49 ahh you're right 19:51:55 /wiki works 19:52:03 so /forum will too, eventually 19:54:38 * calamari goes back to working on his entry :) 19:55:02 * jix too 19:55:07 -!- marcan has quit ("Lost terminal"). 19:55:28 * jix is only able to type with one hand 19:55:50 * jix types with too hands but it hurts 19:57:12 so when you win, you can say you did it one handed? 19:57:23 no read my last msg 19:58:37 jix: the keyword thing would be cool but require a lot of changes to the script 19:58:57 if you're willing to write Perl, go ahead and try it ;) 19:59:15 jix: ahh.. my mistake.. the phrase is "single handed" :) 19:59:38 "single-handedly" 19:59:40 /ME ? PERL ? NEVER! (*h*) 19:59:44 -h+g 19:59:49 jix: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Single-Handedly&defid=1271538 19:59:52 jix: heh, that's what I thought 20:00:27 hmm, now it's time to write a Piet interpreter that reads code from text files 20:01:52 there you go, add language extensions to the forum :P 20:02:13 a forum plugin for the wiki would be cool 20:02:21 cross referencing wiki and forum 20:02:26 same accounts for both 20:02:27 that would be cool 20:02:41 have it as another tab besides "Talk" 20:02:45 no 20:02:53 talk is for a wiki entry 20:03:02 a forum topic is a thing on it's own 20:03:07 -' 20:03:34 where woulkd the entries go on the wiki then 20:04:04 forum:topic-name? 20:04:09 but not as a tab 20:04:33 and forum threads can have Category tags too 20:04:52 would that arrange them by alphabetical order or by last edit? 20:05:04 they arn't like wiki entries 20:05:10 they are like normal forums 20:05:15 but with wiki markup and accounts 20:05:39 maybe something like that exists 20:08:48 -!- marcan has joined. 20:09:41 jix: nope :( just asked 20:12:32 -!- Sgep has joined. 20:13:34 I think I'll represent the colors by the letters A through F 20:13:57 dark: AA, normal: Aa, light: aa 20:14:51 white: two spaces, black: ## 20:15:43 #winehq 20:15:45 Err 20:19:15 graue: is the site hosted by textdrive? 20:19:23 (wiki) 20:19:29 20:19:42 -!- jix has left (?). 20:19:45 -!- jix has joined. 20:19:46 whoops 20:21:30 jix: you answered your own question I guess? 20:21:51 yes 20:26:26 maybe I'll implement a textual Braincopter/Brainloller first, then Piet 20:28:01 Braincopter should be pretty easy 20:33:05 a 2D Thue would be fun 20:54:12 -!- Arrogant has joined. 21:14:24 -!- Arrogant has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC has never been so good"). 21:41:08 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:45:53 a thought: 2D BNF 21:46:05 2D macro languages... 22:00:59 is there a way to display the integers from 1 to n with less than O(n) storage? 22:01:19 wait, also I meant "in random order" 22:05:32 depends on your definition of random, I suppose 22:06:03 I'm generating random numbers in bf with around 8 memory cells 22:08:42 I think graue needs non-repeating. 22:08:49 ahh 22:12:49 for n=5 (numbers 0 to 4, just add one before output), use (n+3)%5 22:14:17 hmm.. I wonder if there are always two constants x and y such that (n+x)%y doesn't repeat over y iterations 22:15:15 hmm of course.. x = 1 :) 22:15:36 not very random tho ;) 22:16:39 x=4 y=5 works also 22:16:52 but that's just 4 3 2 1 0 22:17:54 * calamari checks x=5 y=9 22:19:29 0 5 1 6 2 7 3 8 4 22:19:55 how about x=4 22:20:18 0 4 9 .. nope 22:20:27 err 22:20:32 * calamari needs to learn basic math 22:21:05 0 4 8 3 7 2 6 1 5 22:21:26 that seems more random 22:21:44 but it still inst very random at all 22:21:53 no, it's really not 22:22:02 I was thinking like, equal chance of every possible permutation 22:22:10 which I guess is not possible 22:22:31 I do know how to permute an array in place with that result, though 22:23:19 yeah 22:23:48 2D string-rewriting language: http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1131402000/ 22:24:00 knuth algorithm, iirc :) 22:24:31 it predates Knuth; there's lots of people who are credited with "inventing" it, in fact 22:24:56 may have been made famous by one of his writings though 22:24:58 yeah sure.. I even invented it 22:25:35 but I think that's what it's generally known as 22:27:15 Perl programmers seem to know it as the "Fisher-Yates shuffle" 22:28:11 my original question was inspired by thinking about how to implement that 2D language 22:28:15 how's it sound to you? 22:30:42 sounds confusing, so it's probably good :) 22:31:01 I'd need to read up on Thue 22:32:08 I seem to recall that (n*x)%y goes through all [0, 1, ..., y-1] (for n in [0, 1, ..., y-1]), when x and y are coprime. 22:36:01 fizzie, cool 22:36:18 calamari: when no substitutions can be made the program terminates 22:36:44 while substitutions still can be made, one is made, at random, then this process repeats itself 22:37:17 so it's like an ambiguous grammar 22:37:30 that's the only part that really comes from Thue at all; I didn't copy its interactive I/O for instance 23:07:28 Ah, now I realized where I remembered that result from: it's needed for double hashing. (Where the probe sequence for slots is (h1(k) + i*h2(k) % N) and needs to be a permutation of {0, 1, ..., N-1}.) 23:11:58 that's cool, I never thought of hashing that way before 23:13:46 Often the collisions are handled simply by making the slots linked-lists so they can contain >1 elements. 23:15:30 I happened to have the "write an 'open addressing' hash table" question on my "introduction to imperative programming" course. (Half of the class got that one, the other half wrote their hash tables with chaining.) 23:15:51 open is more fun 23:20:19 I wrote an open-addressing double-hashing table with table-size constrained to 2^N, and h1(str) = sum(i=1->len) p1[str[i]%32] * 31^(n-i), h2(str) = (sum(i=1->len) p2[str[i]%32] * 31^(n-i))*2+1. (Where p1,p2 were random permutations of {0, 1, ..., 31}.) 23:23:48 I think the hash function was inspired by the one the String class in Java uses. (Except that that one doesn't use those permutations I used to make h1/h2 differ.) 23:31:48 graue: dunno if this helps http://www2.toki.or.id/book/AlgDesignManual/BOOK/BOOK4/NODE151.HTM 23:32:34 it is a broken link 23:32:50 NODE11.HTM? 23:33:30 * graue checks the #esoteric log 23:33:34 yeah that's the url 23:33:45 oh, it's NODE151, not NODE11 23:33:53 my IRC client has a stupid wrapping bug in it 23:33:56 ahh 23:58:07 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 23:58:12 Hey guys 23:58:36 Sorry about my post, I was a bit extreme in there, I just wanted to write some feeling down there 2005-11-08: 00:18:07 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:30:51 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:37:50 -!- kipple has joined. 00:39:04 Aardwolf: what? 00:39:20 Aardwolf: on the wiki? 00:39:34 yes, I mean the comment about the timeline article 00:39:41 oh 00:40:26 you might be interested in this: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/kareha.pl/1131382031/ 00:42:11 1L code looks nice in an image 00:42:28 I was going to write a text-based Braincopter/Brainloller interpreter to prove the point further, but I lost interest when I realized they were essentially 1D and I'd just be converting them into Brainfuck then running them 00:42:35 you think? I guess it does 00:43:04 Aardwolf: do you have an example 1L image? 00:43:12 yes, in the link graue gave :) 00:43:27 hehehe 00:44:00 -!- Sgep has quit. 00:44:46 well, an image based language can't do more than a text based language, except that in an image you can store up to 3 bytes in 1 pixel, which would look messy in a text file (where you have to count with special ascii characters you can't easily use and such), so it gives an advantage but it is a point that being image based can't add anything extra to the language itself 00:45:49 mycelium isn't 1D btw :) 00:48:21 I don't think it makes sense to convert mycelum to text based, because it's completely defined with modulo divisions of color channel values, and piet would be even harder, because of the different shapes that color zones can have 00:52:08 * calamari was able to fit a bf interpreter into a bmp image.. runs in ms-dos :) wonder when I did that... should check the test image date 00:52:52 Apr 30, 2001 :) 00:53:39 how big is the image? :) 00:54:28 very small.. http://kidsquid.com/programs/msdos/msdos.html 00:55:09 so the image is actually executable in dos? 00:55:13 yep 00:55:26 I'll try it in dosbox 00:55:37 the company I was working for at the time blocked download of "executables".. so I couldn't resist :) 00:55:56 hehe :D 00:56:18 it works with com programs.. they're encoded into the image.. so it didn't really need to be a bf interpreter, but I thought that'd be fun 00:57:03 it's the factor program, so you'll need to push alt-(keypad)1 (keypad)0 for "enter" 00:58:17 hmm, it said kjqsdfoui 00:58:40 I was considering making a textual Piet interpreter using the letters A thru F for the hue cycle 00:58:42 I'll try it in qemu 00:58:59 dark would be all-caps like AA, normal would be mixed (Aa), light would be lowercase (aa) 00:59:11 white would be two spaces, and black would be ## 00:59:29 that would work 01:00:05 but really, I'd rather do something more interesting, like my 2D string-rewriting language idea 01:01:04 remember deltaplex? I think I'll consider writing a simpeler version of it (my original idea would have been a bit too much work to make an interpreter for) 01:01:16 calamari: what do you mean "it's the factor program"? the interpreter can't load programs from files? 01:02:10 oh geez... (just read Deltaplex article) 01:02:10 I think factor.com is going extremely slow in dosbox 01:02:20 graue: I embedded the program into the interpreter so it would be self contained... 01:02:31 graphics and audio are cool, but they're not really anything to do with languages 01:02:36 graue: but of course a normal interpreter could read from files 01:02:52 calamari: was this interpreter also a normal interpreter? 01:03:17 I don't remember 01:03:48 maybe they don't have to do with languages, but I want to break the barrier of stdin and stdout 01:03:58 I used my tiny asm interpreter 01:04:17 and I haven't looked at it in years 01:04:17 I wonder if 1L_a is Turing-complete if the program height is limited to 16 rows, maximum 01:04:35 if so I could load programs from MIDI files 01:05:47 I chose a bmp because it would be automatically downloaded by the brwoser into the cache... so I didn't "download" anything ;) 01:06:27 of course I never made use of the thing.. floppies were easier 01:07:58 with those super tiny bf interpreters around, I wonder if someone would ever get the crazy idea to write a computer virus that uses bf code hidden in all sorts of things as executable 01:08:46 no 01:09:51 the virus would be too big 01:10:12 you want it to be small, just writie it in asm yourself 01:11:41 this is somewhat offtopic, but you know that Panu Kalliokoski guy who invented iag, B5, and Lisp2K and ran the esolang mailing list? 01:11:49 his "stx" structured text program is really nice 01:15:10 -!- marcan has quit (Success). 01:25:36 also, I don't think B5 is intended to be an esolang 01:25:40 -!- marcan has joined. 01:33:35 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/kareha.pl/1131382031/ <--- what do you think about the 5th reply there? 01:36:37 yeah, that might be neat 01:39:04 it could be called something like, standard textual to image converter 01:39:55 or ascii to image converter, because the korean language would be left out 01:46:19 yeah, those poor korean language speakers :( 01:46:29 people are always stepping all over them, making programs that only support us-ascii 01:46:33 it's sad, sad 01:48:20 something like: R = (ascii*53)%256, G = (ascii*27)%256, B = ascii, rotate left = (0,0,255), rotate right = (0,255,0) could work (just an example) 01:48:45 I meant to say *17 instead of *27 for G :) 01:49:34 gotta go tho, got an important class tomorrow 01:50:37 no, no 01:50:40 I'm working on a better plan for colors 01:51:03 well, check the forum topic later then... 01:51:23 ok :) 01:51:23 cya 01:56:49 I think I like Pbrain 02:22:19 -!- {^Raven^} has quit ("Leaving"). 03:38:19 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:39:36 -!- graue has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:40:57 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:22:36 -!- GregorR has quit ("BRB, upgrading Firefox"). 04:24:12 -!- kipple has quit ("See you later"). 04:25:36 -!- GregorR has joined. 06:10:30 -!- marcan has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:10:30 -!- Aardwolf has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:10:32 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:11:40 -!- marcan has joined. 06:11:40 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 06:11:40 -!- fizzie has joined. 06:22:16 -!- Aardwolf has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:22:19 -!- marcan has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:22:19 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:22:50 -!- marcan has joined. 06:22:50 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 06:22:50 -!- fizzie has joined. 06:31:30 -!- duerig has joined. 06:32:01 If all the world is a stage, then who is the audience? 06:32:09 Martians, probably. 06:32:28 Damn cooky martians! 06:33:13 Yeah. Their so uppity, they don't even deign to send us a message. :) 06:33:20 Er They're 06:34:01 They send messages all the time! 06:34:06 You just have to listen to the yokels! 06:35:09 No wonder they are uppity, if the only earthlings they talk to are yokels. Maybe they don't realize we have cities and skyscrapers and stuff. 06:35:15 :) 06:35:24 Heh 06:35:28 Speaking of (loosely) 06:35:38 http://www.codu.org/pics/Portland2.jpg < Can you get the effect? 06:36:59 No. 06:37:03 I keep getting a finger. 06:37:20 Try without the finger thing, just cross your eyes and try to make the images matchl. 06:37:25 -l 06:38:11 yeah I've seen pics like that before 06:38:22 I have a bitch of a time getting the images to merge though 06:38:34 For some reason it comes totally naturally to me. 06:38:39 I can kind of merge them. But it looks like a wide, repetitive landscape if I do that. 06:38:46 cuz you're demented. 06:38:50 And it seems like it does for a few other people too. 06:38:54 (Two that I know of) 06:38:54 GregorR: pretty, but cross-eye pics never look too great 06:39:07 lament: They're quite crisp and great 3D to me. 06:39:17 GregorR: i mean, compared to the other kind. 06:39:29 I hope you're not comparing to red-green :p 06:39:40 Polarized = better, with stereographic equipment = better. 06:39:50 no, not red-green 06:39:50 But with no equipment, cross-eyed is quite good. 06:40:05 Grr. I hate it when I crave ice cream at midnight. All of the ice cream places are closed. :( 06:40:06 i mean, when you look further than the image 06:40:12 instead of in front of the image 06:40:31 OH 06:40:35 Those are tougher to do. 06:40:52 yes 07:05:37 -!- lirthy has joined. 07:18:50 Hello lirthy 07:19:01 Hello GregorR 07:19:03 and world 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:19:40 GregorR: did you ever have one of those 3-d cameras? It was a disposable w/ 3 lenses. The prints use serrated plastic, like on those cheapie tilt 3-d things 08:47:31 -!- duerig has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:19:17 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 11:17:12 -!- lirthy has quit ("Leave Home"). 11:38:44 -!- jix has joined. 12:20:55 -!- Aardwolf has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:20:21 -!- marcan has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:20:21 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:21:38 -!- marcan has joined. 13:21:38 -!- fizzie has joined. 14:24:16 -!- kipple has joined. 15:14:22 -!- sekhmet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:21:22 -!- sekhmet has joined. 16:43:25 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 16:43:33 -!- jix has joined. 16:46:28 -!- Keymaker has joined. 16:47:08 hi 17:33:23 'lo 17:33:39 'ello 17:33:46 how's going? 17:35:07 Good, fine, etc. 17:35:18 that is good 17:35:38 i'm quite happy too, my long wait is over, tomorrow i can finally get one album.. 17:35:43 *almost over 17:35:59 -!- mtve has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:36:13 L 17:36:14 Err 17:36:16 ? 17:36:23 hm? 17:39:11 ??? 17:39:47 count on #esoteric for interesting discussions 17:39:55 :D 17:40:10 too bad i have no other channel.. 17:40:15 *sigh* 17:42:00 seriously, i can't understand how some people can spend hours _discussing_ in irc! where do they find the channels? 17:42:49 lol 17:42:58 You have to get a rotation going. 17:44:14 :) 17:44:36 by the way, you guys going to enter the calamari's brainfuck competition? 17:44:58 Nah, I am teh sukk. 17:45:10 * jix is 17:45:17 going to enter... 17:45:59 * kipple is not entering because he's not good at bf programming 17:46:11 ok 17:46:31 (i'm entering too, although i have no chance of winning the abacus) 17:46:43 i hope i get the abacus 17:47:12 good luck 18:01:24 -!- graue has joined. 18:26:31 grhhh. there's nothing in the net. the net should be closed and we should start writing letters instead 18:26:38 and start a esolang magazine 18:26:42 *an 18:31:09 -!- mtve has joined. 18:33:23 Or an Esolang television show! 18:34:05 yeah! :) 18:37:32 haha 18:38:00 it could be like a cooking show, except you don't make food but esolangs :) 18:39:16 LOL 18:39:34 :) 18:40:31 hmm. a Chef/cake recipe polyglot would be fun. 18:40:33 what about an esolang based on television? you have infinite amount of channels as memory, looping is channel-browsing, the program ends when the television is turned off.. 18:40:43 hehe, yeah 18:41:12 and the program is a program guide 18:41:32 hehe 18:43:54 well, gotta go 18:44:01 bye 18:44:03 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 18:55:24 -!- graue has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:30:22 -!- Keymaker has joined. 19:48:07 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 20:38:51 -!- Sgep has joined. 21:05:15 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:01:24 -!- Sgep has quit. 22:09:42 Hmm, I could get http://brai.nf/uck/ for only $1022 22:14:31 hah 22:35:44 -!- Sgep has joined. 22:40:51 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:42:16 -!- kipple has joined. 23:32:33 -!- Sgep has changed nick to beerkills. 2005-11-09: 00:08:31 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 00:09:47 hi Aardwolf 00:09:53 hi 00:13:28 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 00:14:12 hi GregorR 00:14:19 'lo beerkills 00:14:30 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to smokekills. 00:14:34 :) 00:15:08 :) 00:15:33 * smokekills wonders who beerkills is really ... 00:15:39 Sgeo 00:15:43 Ahhh 00:15:44 *Sgep 00:15:59 I call myself Sgeo everywhere but Freenode 00:16:10 Already taken? 00:16:30 I forgot my password to it 00:16:36 lol 00:16:48 Err... too lazy to retrieve my password might be more accurate. 00:17:17 Back when I used Windoze, I used a program called passwordsafe 00:17:33 * smokekills uses a password safe ... 00:17:37 On linux, I've been too lazy to attempt to retrieve it 00:17:41 It's called my brain. 00:22:16 So, why "beerkills" btw? 00:22:57 Partially because I typed it into the nick box in Konversation, and clicked out of it, forgetting that that sets nick 00:23:09 lol 00:23:10 And also because someone on another network mentioned drinking beer 00:23:21 Mmm 00:47:15 -!- beerkills has quit. 00:52:55 -!- smokekills has changed nick to GregorR-L. 00:59:53 -!- natasha6 has joined. 01:05:51 -!- natasha6 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:08:59 GASP! 01:09:21 Another potentially female person missed! 01:12:38 And the ident was UNIX ... might not have been a mistaken join! 01:17:45 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Ik zen der is mee weg"). 01:48:34 hmm 01:49:01 I can never find a nifty way to do text to brainfuck 01:51:07 Like textgen.java? 02:11:19 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:36:27 -!- tokigun has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:36:31 -!- tokigun has joined. 02:45:54 -!- graue has joined. 02:56:56 -!- graue has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:01:52 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:32:07 -!- calamari has joined. 03:32:16 hi 03:34:27 'lo 03:35:04 ho 03:35:23 I found a good "trainer" 3D image :P 03:39:37 I have no idea what you're talking about :) 03:39:59 http://www.codu.org/pics/3d/RedPhone.jpg 03:40:20 aha 03:41:27 I can never get those things to work for me 03:42:09 I've found that that pic has had great success with those who couldn't do others. 03:42:20 And once you've got one, you sort of "get it", and others are easier. 03:42:34 when I cross my eyes everything gets so blurry that it is impossible to seee whether it is 3D or not 03:42:53 The focussing is the hardest part. 03:43:19 does the distance to the screen matter? 03:43:40 Not AFAICT, but I'm told that if you get farther away it's easier. 03:45:03 that's not a trainer image, lol 03:45:10 that requires quite the crossing 03:45:22 unless you mean training for extra crossing? 03:45:37 I have no idea, just several people that couldn't see other ones were able to get that one. 03:45:43 So I have to assume that it's somehow intrinsically easier. 03:46:19 well it's a decent image.. wish it had part of a wallway for extra depth or somethin :) 03:46:28 err hallway 03:46:47 http://www.codu.org/pics/3d/Down-Lg.jpg 03:46:53 That one has depth >: ) 03:47:54 now that one is cool 03:48:04 ^_^ 03:48:57 * calamari likes crossing his eyes as hard as he can, then looking straight ahead through one eye.. freaks people out :) 03:49:08 Yeah ... I'll bet ... 03:51:24 the way I was taught to cross my eyes was to look at my finger (pointing up) and move it closer and closer to my face while still looking at my finger. It sort of works automatically. 03:51:37 of course one you train your eyes you don't need that anymore 03:52:03 Note that that instruction is on the images ;) 03:52:08 is it? 03:52:28 nah that's a little different 03:52:33 "Or, put a finger over the blue rectangle, and pull it back until you see the 3D image." 03:52:56 see thats different.. mine the finger moves toward you 03:53:05 Umm ... yes .... 03:53:14 What do you imply from that sentence? 03:53:29 I don't know.. it's a difficult sentence to understand 03:53:40 I was limited in the length of the sentence :-P 03:54:14 oh, are these your images? cool 03:54:25 Yeah. 03:54:29 I took all of those pics. 03:55:19 I realized the problem with the red phone.. most ppl probably run 1280x1024 and I'm at 1024x768 on a 21" monitor :) 03:55:39 That's why I have both the -Lg and the not -Lg. 03:55:43 I have 1024x768 03:55:44 hehehe 03:55:48 So the non-Lg works well for me. 03:56:19 I downloaded the image and resized it.. much less eye-straining.. if I have to cross too much the images seem to go diagonal from each other and I can't get a good lock 03:57:05 Firefox and IE scale it to the width of your monitor, so I find that -Lg is good for that. 04:08:44 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:44:17 -!- Arrogant has joined. 05:31:37 Man. Firefox 2.0 is going to rock out. 05:31:52 Of course I realize that Firefox 1.5 is not done yet! 05:31:58 But that doesn't mean I'm not anticipating already. 05:39:51 Blerr! 05:40:26 Blerr! 05:40:28 Indeed. 05:40:30 Why blerr? 05:40:36 Also, what is blerr. 05:40:40 Just a sort of "by the way, I'm alive" thing. 05:40:42 No meaning. 05:40:49 Ah. 05:40:57 Fx2 will have Python support. 05:41:00 Or rather, 05:41:03 Gecko 1.9 will. 05:41:22 Which means that Chatzilla will become my new IRC client. 05:41:29 Awesome, gonna be scripting? 05:41:42 http://www.codu.org/pics/3d/Trainer.jpg < Can you see the 3D phone? :P 05:41:51 Oh, definitely. The only thing keeping me from writing Chatzilla scripts is that it is in JAVASCRIPT. 05:41:53 And I hate Javascript. 05:42:09 Yeah, Javascript is bad ... 05:42:49 * Arrogant checks the mimetype of said link 05:42:50 ;) 05:42:54 Okay safe. 05:43:12 It's just a jpeg :P 05:43:24 Like goatse is just a jpeg. 05:43:26 I know. 05:43:40 Checking for shockwave 05:43:47 I hate screamers 05:43:54 Ah 05:43:58 No, this is just a 3D phone ;P 05:44:04 * Robdgreat tries to reach for the bottle of moxie. 05:44:07 * Robdgreat fails. 05:44:13 lol 05:44:33 Can't do it. 05:44:41 Bah. 05:44:43 try crossing your eyes until the images merge 05:44:54 that's the only way that works for me 05:44:55 I do that then I accidentally focus. 05:45:14 Then try the other way :P 05:45:17 Both are explained on the image. 05:48:42 I mean, I can see the image 05:48:44 But I can't see it. 05:49:14 * GregorR has no idea what that means :P 05:49:32 Once I get the images to merge, it takes me a second before I can actually focus 05:49:56 often it goes in and out of focus, wavering a bit until I can finally see it 05:50:13 It's there, but in peripheral vision 05:50:18 And when I try to look at it 05:50:19 It's gone 05:51:21 I've gotten too damn good at these XD 06:19:52 oh no, uninstalling and reinstalling kstars fixed it.. welcome to Windows. Click here to begin :( 06:20:17 * calamari was really hoping it was a bad config file entry or something 06:20:21 -!- Arrogant has quit (" Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-"). 06:21:07 well that's okay.. still a cool program 06:23:41 I still haven't thought of a clever way to eliminate all the bad cases from my golf entry 06:28:30 and for another random comment.. grip is great at reading badly damaged discs and still making them listenable (no stuttering) 06:29:52 wow 06:30:17 www.thepaddedcell.org/bandnamegen2.php <-- English counts as an esoteric language, right? 06:34:39 cool 06:35:23 I keep myself entertained. 06:46:33 -!- duerig has joined. 06:47:20 Hey, does anyone know why lhope added mispellings of lambda to the wiki with redirects to lambda calculus? 07:11:10 -!- ramkrsna has joined. 07:29:53 yay nambla calculus. 07:53:19 'lo ramkrsna 07:53:39 * GregorR wonders if ramkrsna is a certain person GregorR knows from Intel ... 07:54:26 * GregorR notes that that's about as silly of a thought as thinking "I wonder if this Mohammed online is the same Mohammed as the friend of mine" 07:55:30 GregorR: nope 07:55:36 Hi 07:55:49 Yeah, the more I thought about it the more I figured that didn't actually make sense :-P 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:56 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 08:33:54 -!- ramkrsna has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 09:04:11 I have decided to disown Kansas from my knowledge. The US has 49 states and a black hole roughly the size and shape of an average state that destroys intelligent thought. 09:32:12 Kansas? What is that? Oh. Do you mean Kansas-City, Missouri? :-) 09:32:16 http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=Kansas+City,+MO 09:32:18 Hahaha 09:33:35 In my own state, there is an idiot trying to get science out of the classroom. His argument is that 'You see cats and dogs, but no dat. So obviously species are what they are and can't change'. 09:40:36 And he was voted as a state senator. 10:39:10 -!- lament_ has joined. 10:50:26 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:44:48 -!- duerig has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:59:23 -!- jix has joined. 14:06:35 -!- kipple has joined. 15:06:24 -!- lindi- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:16:50 -!- nooga has joined. 15:16:55 you 15:18:13 moin nooga 15:18:41 nooga: http://www.frappr.com/esolang 15:24:51 added myself 15:25:05 cool 15:26:28 bah 15:26:34 i forgot abt the photo 15:38:25 ha 15:38:33 google maps include my city :D 15:38:45 erm, okay, town 16:05:06 hm 16:05:12 what's up? 16:15:08 yay, europe is catching up with the US on the map :) 16:15:41 ;] 16:15:52 i must add my photo ;p 16:16:06 but i look like an idiot ;p 16:25:45 hm 16:26:24 how is it with ortographical mistakes in english? 16:26:24 what do you mean? 16:27:32 i.e. if i write "kindergarnen" will you know i meant "kindergarden" ? 16:28:10 probably. there aren't any other words that I know of that it could be 16:28:21 in polish: przedszkole (kindergarden) is correct, but i can write ciekole 16:28:38 it sounds simmilar but it's wrong 16:29:24 i just need some english ortographic errors in my new language ;p 16:58:14 hm 17:01:33 -!- mtve has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:01:39 hm 17:04:24 trying to write SADOL compiler for .NET 17:04:31 but idk how to start ;p 17:06:40 compile to MSIL and then compile MSIL using M$ ILDASM 17:06:40 ? 17:22:47 -!- Freya has joined. 17:35:49 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:14:28 -!- Freya has quit. 18:19:01 -!- lindi- has joined. 18:26:44 -!- Keymaker has joined. 18:27:41 evenin' 18:34:25 hi 18:35:17 hi kipple 18:35:43 anythin' interestin' goin' on? 18:35:47 nah 18:35:53 ok' 18:36:59 still 842 variations.. :\ 18:37:30 no new songs added.. 18:39:52 I've thought about writing a version i Rail as well, but when the site is not updated it is not so inspiring... 18:40:01 yeah 18:40:03 *in Rail 18:40:14 i got i 18:40:18 *it 18:40:22 hehe 18:40:25 :) 18:50:31 -!- mtve has joined. 19:49:55 -!- calamari has joined. 19:50:47 hi calamari 19:52:18 hi keymaker 19:52:47 how is your entry going? I'm still trying to find a good way.. lots of different bad input cases to throw out 19:52:58 well, i haven't started programming yet 19:53:04 i've planned it, though 19:53:22 but when i feel non-lazy enough i'll try to plan a better version 19:54:10 * calamari hads found 11 different input configs, 2 are good, 9 not :) 19:54:19 :) 19:54:47 of course I'm probably missing a few.. wrote those up during a boring lecture 19:55:03 heh 19:59:51 hm.. i'll be back later.. 19:59:54 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 20:50:52 -!- Keymaker has joined. 21:24:03 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 21:30:05 aardwolf: done any work on deltaplex? 21:30:39 Keymaker: yeah but it's a lot of work, and I'm currently making a game 21:30:46 ok :) 21:30:53 and yeah, i belive it's a lot work 21:31:11 I think I'll make a simpler kind of deltaplex, with only a few commands, only able to draw triangle primitives or so 21:32:26 Appearantly it's not really considered innovative tho, because it's not a new kind of language, only more input and output possibilities. 21:33:46 hmm 21:39:15 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:40:01 nite.. 21:40:04 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 22:04:45 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 22:49:08 Aardwolf: you shouldn't take graue's opinions as everybody else's 22:50:13 * GregorR-L disagrees with every point graue has ever made :-P 23:19:35 -!- lament has joined. 23:38:21 -!- Sgep has joined. 23:48:10 -!- nooga has joined. 23:48:14 hi 2005-11-10: 00:02:11 hi nooga 00:04:38 hi calamari 00:10:52 * nooga is trying to write SADOL -> .NET's CIL 00:21:04 -!- nooga has quit. 00:47:50 *yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn* 01:05:42 * calamari notes that it takes much longer to compile qemu than the linux kernel 01:11:53 Have you tried QVM86? 01:16:08 yes 01:16:12 it doesn't work 01:16:19 doesn't patch cleanly 01:17:15 Hmm, works great for me, but I could be out of date.... 01:22:03 ahh there we go.. it must have been the cvs qemu I was trying to use 01:22:15 * calamari compiles again 01:28:48 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Ik zen der is mee weg"). 01:44:30 qvm86 doesn't seem to help much 01:48:08 Hmm, for me it's substantial... 02:07:27 which kqemu would work.. the latest version is supposed to be faster than qvm86 02:07:32 wish even 02:10:02 See, I wouldn't use it because it's proprietary :-P 02:11:32 * calamari just uses what gets the job done.. until it starts getting in the way 02:12:13 win xp doesn't get the job done.. it's crap :) but I have to use it for visual studio 02:12:45 Now if only VS got the job done ... 02:16:49 lol 02:17:32 well, monodevelop failed me.. the latest version crashes out constantly 02:17:50 but I need it for the windows.forms support 02:30:38 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Time to go home!"). 02:39:57 -!- mtve has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:59:51 -!- kipple has quit ("See you later"). 03:01:41 * Sgep really should leave for 30min 03:04:49 -!- Sgep has quit. 03:12:22 -!- sekhmet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:15:44 -!- sekhmet has joined. 03:15:51 -!- sekhmet has quit (Connection reset by peer). 03:16:05 -!- sekhmet has joined. 03:18:44 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 03:31:07 -!- calamari has joined. 03:42:56 -!- sekhmet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:43:29 -!- sekhmet has joined. 03:49:28 -!- sekhmet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:49:38 -!- sekhmet has joined. 03:50:24 -!- sekhmet_ has joined. 03:58:00 -!- lament has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:58:33 -!- lament has joined. 04:05:24 -!- sekhmet has quit (Connection timed out). 06:52:09 qemu win2003 startup: no accel 4:53, qvm86 4:46, kqemu 4:19 06:52:33 lol 06:52:35 Pathetic. 06:52:43 However, that seems like a very I/O bound operation ... 06:52:47 Try it with something more proc-bound. 06:53:06 * GregorR searches in vain for a way to pimp OBLISK. 06:53:45 however the i/o being done is the same in all cases... :) 06:54:13 Umm, exactly ......... 06:54:25 right.. so kqemu is faster 06:54:31 not much tho 06:54:49 and qvm86 was basically like having no acceleration at all 06:55:17 if it wasn't installed for qemu I'd try it plain.. hehe 07:24:02 -!- mtve has joined. 07:27:18 -!- sekhmet_ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:27:31 -!- sekhmet_ has joined. 07:31:22 oops 07:31:46 I was running tow qemus at the same time.. with only one, kqemu boots in 2:45 07:32:02 need to retry qvm86 to make sure on it 07:33:54 -!- sekhmet_ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:34:36 -!- sekhmet_ has joined. 07:37:42 2:54.. guess it helps when you're not running two copies of 2003 at the same time :) 07:40:23 -!- nooga has joined. 07:40:36 -!- lament has quit ("Get MacIrssi - http://www.g1m0.se/macirssi/"). 07:41:50 -!- lament_ has changed nick to lament. 07:42:36 bbl 07:42:38 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:55:08 -!- marcan_ has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:09:36 -!- marcan has quit (Connection timed out). 08:34:08 -!- sekhmet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:44:51 -!- sekhmet has joined. 08:55:52 -!- nooga has left (?). 09:33:02 -!- marcan_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:35:36 -!- marcan has joined. 10:41:05 -!- ChanServ has quit (Shutting Down). 10:49:13 -!- ChanServ has joined. 10:49:13 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 11:06:14 -!- CXI has quit ("this quit is bananas"). 11:06:34 -!- CXI has joined. 14:07:01 -!- kipple has joined. 17:28:09 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 18:27:12 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Can you get kicked for rude quit messages?"). 19:12:44 -!- jix has joined. 19:37:17 -!- cpressey has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:07:11 -!- cpressey has joined. 21:23:06 -!- Sgep has joined. 21:48:00 -!- Sgep has changed nick to Sgeo. 21:48:04 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgep. 21:53:56 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:25:51 -!- ihope has joined. 22:26:11 I just set up Haskell to do SKI-combinator calculus. 22:26:28 -!- Xin_ has joined. 22:27:03 But it keeps complaining that the type ((a -> b) -> a -> b) is not of type (a -> a -> b). 22:27:49 Indeed, the superset of those types is (x -> b), where x *is* (x -> b). 22:36:43 -!- Taliesin41 has joined. 22:36:58 -!- Taliesin41 has changed nick to KevinN. 22:37:44 hiho @ all... 22:39:56 'Ello 22:40:46 whee... AlPhAbEt 0.20 is released... :) 22:45:49 Hmm... 0.20. Sounds good to me! 22:46:14 jupp... 22:46:21 changed a lot since 0.14 22:51:47 Hmm, lemme fudge this a bit... 22:51:50 -!- ihope has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]"). 22:54:15 -!- ihope has joined. 22:54:55 'Ere we go. 22:59:00 hehe... ^_^ 23:07:20 -!- KevinN has left (?). 23:51:44 -!- Sgep has quit. 23:54:02 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2005-11-11: 00:41:23 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:44:51 -!- kipple has joined. 01:50:29 -!- ihope has joined. 01:50:59 Eh, infinite types in Haskell. Can it be done? 02:47:20 -!- ihope has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:13:16 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:35:56 I'm going to try C# ... if I like it I'll be pissed. 05:00:55 Woah .... REALLY hate C#'s operator overloading ...... 05:04:15 Don't like delegates either ... seems like they tried to escape function pointers but just made something even worse ... 05:07:35 Hmm, I guess I don't hate its operator overloading, just indexers ... 05:10:15 Overall opinion: Better than Java, but no better than C++. Sacrifices too much power for finesse. I don't need an "override" keyword to know when a method is overriding the method of its base class (etc) 05:17:25 -!- Sgep has joined. 06:23:19 -!- Sgep has quit. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 12:31:07 -!- Keymaker has joined. 12:31:31 it's weekend! 12:31:40 (the traditional weekend-start message) 12:35:32 -!- jix has joined. 12:40:04 hello jix 12:40:09 moin Keymaker 12:40:19 what's the clokc there? 12:41:32 here? 12:41:37 13:41:09 12:41:42 ok 12:41:51 a hour earlier than here, it seems 13:31:40 -!- cpressey has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:40:13 -!- cpressey has joined. 13:48:26 -!- kipple has joined. 13:48:32 hello kipple 13:49:23 hi 13:49:39 too bad no update on 99bob.net 13:49:51 aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrgggh 13:58:34 :( 14:33:49 -!- Gs30ng has joined. 14:40:33 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 15:09:31 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 17:20:36 -!- Keymaker has joined. 17:59:26 -!- jix has joined. 18:45:14 ah, a programming error! 18:48:25 -!- marcan_ has joined. 18:57:30 -!- marcan has quit (Connection timed out). 19:07:13 -!- Sgep has joined. 19:13:03 underflow!!!! i love non-wrapping ;) 19:13:21 http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/ 19:13:54 :D 19:18:23 hmmmmmmm? 19:22:43 * Keymaker tosses out his aluminium foil helmet 19:26:33 bbl 19:26:35 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 19:29:53 Bye all for now 20:22:05 -!- Arrogant has joined. 20:44:47 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.5/undefined]"). 20:52:04 -!- Keymaker has joined. 21:42:00 after rewriting: still underflow and strange behaviour 22:09:13 YES YES YES YES 22:09:29 :) 22:10:02 it was missing [ ] 22:10:17 brain malfunction.. 22:18:26 brb 22:27:14 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:43:02 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 23:40:50 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 2005-11-12: 02:28:12 -!- ihope has joined. 02:30:46 !help 02:31:35 Hmm. 02:32:51 Aha. Apparently it's just very laggy and all that... 02:33:35 !help 02:33:43 !ps 02:33:52 Dot dot dot 02:34:02 Test... 02:34:05 It's alive. 02:34:14 Hmm. 02:34:22 !ps 02:34:31 1 ihope: help 02:34:33 2 GregorR: help 02:34:35 3 GregorR: ps 02:34:41 Well that's odd :P 02:34:43 help ps kill i eof flush show ls 02:34:45 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} glass glypho kipple lazyk malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01 02:35:02 Lag indeed. 02:35:03 Oh, I know why, I'm running too much stuff :P 02:35:08 :-) 02:35:10 It can't get any cycles. 02:35:39 1 ihope: help 02:35:41 2 GregorR: help 02:35:43 3 GregorR: ps 02:35:45 4 ihope: help 02:35:47 5 GregorR: ps 02:35:53 ! 02:36:07 help ps kill i eof flush show ls 02:36:09 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} glass glypho kipple lazyk malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01 02:37:18 Now I'm getting a help thing via msg's... 02:39:28 It's gone MAAAAAAAAAAAAAD 02:47:15 * ihope will resist the urge to spam it with !help and !ps 02:53:30 -!- DeathJoker has joined. 02:53:48 hello 02:53:57 'lo 02:56:26 -!- DeathJoker has left (?). 03:25:05 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:25:46 -!- ihope has joined. 03:29:02 I suddenly want to write a Haskell-to-Lazy K compiler. 03:29:31 XD 03:30:52 It'd probably be done in an imperative language until I get Haskell down. 03:32:04 Now, according to Hugs, the last element of toinfinity (defined to be 1 : [ a+1 | a <- toinfinity ]) is 246625. 03:37:59 -!- ChanServ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:38:56 * ihope suddenly realizes the ChanServ was spying on us 03:41:24 And the aluminum foil helmets don't work! 03:43:27 * ihope dons a +7 Helm of Referential Transparency 03:43:40 Oops, wait a minute 03:43:53 * ihope dons a +7 Helm of Referential Opacity 03:45:07 -!- ChanServ has joined. 03:45:07 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 03:45:25 * ihope hides 03:49:06 -!- Sgeper has joined. 04:02:44 -!- ihope has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]"). 05:05:48 -!- Sgep has quit (SendQ exceeded). 05:44:58 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:50:09 Bye all 05:52:30 -!- Sgeper has quit. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:38:53 -!- duerig has joined. 08:39:09 Hello, 10:50:48 -!- jix has joined. 12:27:52 -!- kipple has joined. 13:33:05 -!- duerig has quit ("Leaving"). 15:48:28 -!- Keymaker has joined. 15:53:05 hmmm, the language list is quite impressive already 15:54:20 -!- Xin_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:20:29 Keymaker: are you working on a golf entry? 16:21:04 yeah 16:21:13 at the very moment, actually :) 16:21:21 * jix too 16:21:35 i'm able to detect aba as wrong an abbcca too and abbccb too 16:21:35 yesterday night i thought i got it done, but there seems to be some stupid bug 16:21:54 i have some small memory bug 16:22:00 but i have some problem if it passes the first test and i need the first test to do my 2nd test 16:22:10 ok 16:22:38 i wonder if the other have worked on their entries.. 16:22:44 laurent, calamari... 16:23:34 i'm not done (no output and some code is still missing) and i'm at 258bytes 16:23:34 *others 16:24:27 i'll try to hunt the bug now 16:25:34 do you use some debugging tools? 16:25:39 nope 16:25:57 nope?! 16:26:09 or well, the interpreter i use prints the final memory state 16:26:53 it would be cool if bfdebug would support non wrapping 16:27:04 what that program does? 16:27:43 it displays the memory allows step by step running breakpoints and labeled memory positions (i don't use the last one) 16:28:03 uh 16:28:07 sounds too complex for me :) 16:28:33 its very easy to use... it's written by calamari 16:28:52 ok.. but i still won't use it :) 16:28:57 how many bytes do you have atm? 16:29:02 178 16:29:11 oops, 169 16:29:14 including output?! 16:29:17 nope 16:29:35 how can you do those tests with only 169 bytes? 16:29:46 i won't tell, this is a competition :p 16:29:54 it wasn't a real question 16:30:00 i know 16:30:03 :) 16:30:26 but just wait, knowing laurent he manages to stuff the whole thing in 250 bytes.. 16:30:54 or dbc.. 16:31:13 hopefully he has time to enter 16:31:30 246 bytes and far from complete :( 16:34:24 i think i have to rewrite it 16:34:59 i'll rewrite mine too, i'm too lazy to search the bug any other way :) 16:35:37 the problem sounds easy but it's quite difficult to implement 16:35:43 yeah 16:39:17 i'm at 18 bytes ;) 16:39:35 :) 16:52:56 and i'm again at 95 bytes.. (growing too fast) 17:06:18 NARGH 17:06:20 stupid me 17:06:38 again at 0 bytes 17:08:42 same here :) 17:13:27 ahhh 17:13:35 now i realize why.. 17:15:21 -!- Sgep has joined. 17:17:35 i forgot about order in my 2nd try you too? 17:18:13 nope 17:18:25 but i realized one simple error 17:26:06 between the keyboard and the chair, eh 17:26:18 yeah :) 17:36:38 -!- mtve has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:51:52 -!- mtve has joined. 18:44:25 i may not win, but at least i have one working solution!!!!!! 18:44:29 yeaaaaah 19:11:19 found small bug that happened only if the input was only the new-line char and nothing more, but now it's fixed 19:11:30 i did a lot testing and the solution should work perfectly 19:19:47 -!- calamari has joined. 19:20:10 hi 19:22:58 hi calamari! 19:23:05 hi keymaker 19:23:10 i just got my first competition entry done 19:23:19 i'm about to post the md5 soon 19:23:26 cool! 19:23:41 I hadn't checked it in a couple days 19:31:03 hmm nothing new yet.. guess you'll be the first :) 19:33:12 Keymaker: md5? what for? 19:33:29 my solution for calamari's competition 19:33:42 md5 of the program 19:34:10 http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=134 19:34:13 dont forget to post the size too :) 19:34:36 did i have to post that too? 19:34:36 * calamari checks it out 19:35:26 you don't have to, I suppose.. but I thought golf entries usually did? maybe I'm remembering wrong 19:35:45 brbish 19:35:47 yeah, they did, but your rules didn't require it ;) 19:36:01 haha 19:36:48 well, I'll amend the rules, but since you submitted before that, you are exempt if you prefer :) 19:37:02 :) 19:38:18 the actual code is probably as optimized as i can optimize, but the message printings aren't very optimized.. i'll need to try to squeeze them down.. 19:38:34 ..later.. :) 19:38:37 hehe 19:38:59 it was a nice task, i gotta say 19:39:04 there, rules changed :) 19:39:12 thanks, glad you enjoyed it 19:39:25 did the interpreter and stripper work properly? 19:39:47 stripper worked as supposed to, but i have used another interpreter 19:40:07 why? 19:40:44 because i always use that interpreter for my brainfuck programming 19:40:50 and i like it 19:40:57 it's some simple interpreter written by dbc 19:41:31 oic :) no problem.. just paranoid I guess. Some of the changes were done late at night and without much testing 19:41:38 :D 19:42:52 calamari: you've done any work on your entry yet? 19:43:33 yeah 19:43:54 Keymaker: can you edit your post to include size? 19:43:58 so far it can print accepted or rejected depending on the value of a cell :) 19:44:08 :) 19:44:33 jix: no, i'm too embarrassed! the size grew a lot from the 169.. 19:44:40 169? 19:44:44 * calamari cries 19:44:46 i had to add three error routine codes.. 19:44:50 it was without output 19:44:56 yeah, and wasn't functional 19:45:15 i was just going to say it was without output, but jix got first :) 19:45:27 * calamari better post before Keymaker posts the size.. otherwise I'll be too embarrassed :) 19:46:40 * calamari checks his current wip .. 698 bytes.. but that's with comments and a lot of commented out code 19:47:17 calamari: do you use bfdebug for debugging bf code? if yes, is there a non wrapping version? 19:47:39 yeah I'm using bfdebug.. no there isn't a non-wrapping version.. I should add that, it would be easy 19:47:59 to say once again; when i rewrote the code i added three error routine codes.. and the output code is 200+ bytes! x( 19:48:31 well, I haven't actually done any of the meat of the program yet.. 19:49:57 ok 19:50:24 * calamari suspects that if his program is larger than Keymaker's, he will then edit his entry to include the size.. :D 19:50:33 i know i will have no chances of winning, but at least got one working solution made for my own enjoyment 19:50:43 :) 19:50:57 never know.. could win by default 19:51:31 i have a bad feeling laurent comes up with something extra elegant, like in my second contest.. 19:51:40 or dbc 19:51:44 yeah 19:51:47 if he is participating 19:51:52 was just about to add that :) 19:51:56 he is a bf god 19:52:00 yeah 19:57:32 just to add, dbc once explained me in very great detail how his random generator program works.. and gotta say it is a H-A-C-K!! 20:06:49 it's only ~22:00?! 21:07:14 jix: http://kidsquid.com/programs/bf/bfdebug-1.70.jar 21:09:09 oops I just realized a bug.. don't d/l that yet :) 21:16:42 okay, uploaded a new 1.70 21:39:42 -!- cpressey_ has joined. 21:40:10 -!- cpressey has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:36:42 Keymaker: the cellular automaton one? 22:36:56 hm? 22:37:02 RNG 22:37:09 ah 22:37:10 yeah 23:03:58 calamari: thanks! 23:04:20 jix: yw.. let me know if you have problems 23:05:04 * jix launches Jar Bundler 23:05:10 hm? 23:05:15 .jar => .app 23:05:15 what's that? 23:05:20 oh 23:06:46 * calamari wonders what it looks like on a mac 23:07:09 I guess it should be the same for everyone since I'm using metal 23:07:46 no 23:07:51 it's native osx theme here 23:09:15 interesting 23:09:30 maybe java for osx overrides the default 23:09:33 it's graphical program? 23:09:36 yeah 23:09:40 ok 23:09:50 jix: care to make a screenshot? :) 23:10:17 sometimes seeing a program run in a different environment exposes layout flaws 23:13:27 the default window size is a bit too small 23:15:34 http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5349/bild24go.png (the menu title was entered by me in jar bundler) 23:17:30 wow 23:17:51 * calamari now wants a mac 23:18:05 hrhr 23:18:34 agree, looks pretty good 23:18:45 I'm not too crazy about the tabs, but everything else is great 23:19:02 hmm anther idea... 23:19:18 15 memory fields are to few to fill a 19" screen 23:19:46 and the memory view jumps a bit fast in run mode 23:21:00 its supposed to go fast in run mode 23:21:16 you can go slow in step mode 23:21:34 while running code like [->+<] you can't watch the memory view 23:21:35 thinking about the options for the 15 fields 23:22:22 jix: why not? it seems fine here.. so maybe its a bug? 23:23:55 it doesn't seem to be a bug.. run >>>>>>>>>>+>>>>+>>+>>>>-[->+<] and try to find the 1 values 23:26:46 oh.. are you saying you'd like a speed control? 23:27:06 no but only move the memory view if the data pointer moves out of it.. don't always center it 23:27:12 but yes speed control would be cool too 23:27:16 brb 23:38:50 back 2005-11-13: 00:26:26 -!- ChanServ has quit (Shutting Down). 00:29:38 -!- ChanServ has joined. 00:29:38 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 00:30:48 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 00:35:23 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 01:55:21 -!- GregorR has quit ("NO TIME TO SAY GOODBYE HAHAHAH!"). 01:57:23 -!- GregorR has joined. 03:27:17 -!- GregorR has changed nick to GregorR[notHome]. 03:45:14 -!- marcan_ has quit ("Lost terminal"). 03:57:47 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:55:21 -!- marcan has joined. 05:07:31 -!- ChanServ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:34:36 -!- ChanServ has joined. 05:34:36 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 06:01:42 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 06:38:39 -!- Arrogant has joined. 06:55:59 -!- Sgep has quit. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:10:07 -!- Keymaker has joined. 09:10:16 hello 09:21:05 hello 09:21:14 hi 09:23:32 What's up. 09:23:39 hmm, fine 09:23:55 what about you? 09:24:06 Eh, nothing much 09:24:10 o-k 09:46:43 -!- jix has joined. 10:24:27 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.5/undefined]"). 11:08:19 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 14:47:43 -!- kipple has joined. 15:09:57 -!- Keymaker has joined. 15:10:45 kipple: seems they've added my sceql 99 bottles of beer now! 15:10:49 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-sceql-924.html 15:11:55 yeah they've added a lot of languages now 15:12:10 guess they finally had the time to review the submissions 15:12:19 yeah 15:12:29 what was the one you submitted? 15:12:38 var'aq 15:12:47 ah 15:12:55 var'aq is probably the least esoteric of the esoteric languages 15:54:51 i hate school work.. x( 17:35:30 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:40:31 -!- mtve has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:52:18 -!- mtve has joined. 18:40:57 -!- Sgep has joined. 18:52:38 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 19:23:43 -!- Sgep has quit. 19:45:43 -!- Sgep has joined. 21:04:39 -!- calamari has joined. 21:05:05 hi 21:18:39 hi 22:10:36 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:41:23 calamari: bfdebugger looks good, but it behaves 22:42:05 argh! it uses all my CPU-cycles when trying to open a file :( 22:42:11 weird 22:54:45 probably a java issue and not bfdebugger's fault 23:37:14 -!- puzzlet has joined. 23:50:10 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 23:51:48 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 2005-11-14: 00:43:47 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:29:33 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:29:35 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:50:47 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:52:53 Later all~ 01:52:57 -!- Sgep has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:53:32 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:18:22 -!- Arrogant has joined. 02:45:20 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:49:16 -!- calamari has joined. 02:50:10 -!- hamako has joined. 02:52:23 hi 02:52:50 hello 03:01:52 -!- kikko has joined. 03:02:18 -!- kikko has changed nick to MadBrain. 03:04:06 -!- MadBrain has quit (Client Quit). 03:04:42 -!- mad has joined. 03:07:01 uh, -> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Object_disoriented 03:07:38 hi mad, and welcome :) 03:07:49 hello :) 03:07:51 I just saw your lang on the wiki 03:08:00 in fact I just edited the article a bit :) 03:08:29 It probably needs a bit polishing, no? 03:08:51 some simple code examples would be nice 03:09:19 it's a bit hard to understand now (or maybe I'm dense) 03:09:54 hmm, there's an untested brainfuck interpreter linked at the bottom... but you're right, it could definitely use something like a hello world 03:10:18 I've seen the bf-interpreter, but it is not exactly easy to comprehend :P 03:10:50 "untested" and "bf interpreter" usually don't go well together :) 03:11:16 bf is simple but there are many oppotunities for error 03:11:21 basically, the lang's main selling point is that everything is encapsulated, so you can only access at most 5 variables at the same time 03:11:23 hehe 03:12:05 calmari: Right, I bet it probably has some bugs and doesn't work... but it's always a good test to know if your lang is turing complete, no? 03:12:08 looks cool :) 03:12:34 mad: oh yeah, no question 03:13:52 mad: I don't see how you can do even simple arithmetics with this language... 03:14:08 An important data structure it uses is a stack 03:14:16 And a pair 03:14:45 A pair is an object that successively returns object A, then object B, then object A, etc... 03:15:43 It uses the mpair. class to make a pair with two objects, using currying to read the two parameters 03:16:28 The stack returns A, then returns B, then returns C, etc... until it runs out and just turns into z (null object) 03:17:23 For numbers, it uses 8 bit stacks... but you can implement them in many ways :) 03:18:31 As bits, it uses either z (null object), or an object with a function that just activates the parameter's function 03:19:50 So if you go fab (use a's function on object b), and a is either '0' or '1', and b is a pair, then, if a is 0, the pair stays the same, but if a is 1, the pair is switched. 03:20:40 Crazy functional programming :) 03:21:25 indeed 03:21:51 But it would be better with, uh, more OOP parody stuff 03:24:17 The result is that, since there's so few member data, you have to write interfaces for more or less everything, and that there's many different ways to write those interfaces... which possibly comes not that far from actual OOP 03:26:10 I think it's halfway between unlambda and other similar really insane languages, and standard imperative stuff... it's actually vaguely usable :) 03:26:58 It looks interesting. hopefully the article will become easier to understand :) 03:29:26 yeah, I have to work on that 03:37:43 hmm, this hello world isn't very neat... 03:39:46 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 03:48:21 well... um... that's it :) 03:48:44 that's what? 03:50:48 well, about the language 03:55:43 I wonder if I should add some other stuff to the wiki 03:56:13 what do you mean? what other stuff? 03:56:30 oh, another vaguely similar lang 03:56:47 if it's esoteric then go ahead :) 03:56:53 which lang is this? 03:57:02 functional too, more low level 03:57:07 pardon my ignorance; I just got back 03:57:38 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:58:11 the one I've just talked about? Something I've just posted to the wiki, "Object disoriented" ( http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Object_disoriented ) 03:58:39 It's a new lang, I guess 03:59:18 * Robdgreat head asplode. 04:01:05 nasty stuff, yeah 04:07:48 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.5/undefined]"). 04:12:19 -!- GregorR[notHome] has changed nick to GregorR. 04:14:45 It possibly has a member variable too much, but I think it's nasty enough. 04:17:06 * GregorR is glad nobody can ever claim his prize of /first/ object oriented esolang :) 04:21:24 What program for GNU/Linux should I package with OBLISK next ...? 04:23:12 Ah, no, I can't claim that... but can I claim the first functional object oriented esolang? :) 04:23:53 Hmmm, I guess so, if that phrase can be proven to me not completely meaningless ;) 04:23:58 Err 04:24:00 To be 04:25:46 Well, I'm not sure, but the esolang I've come up with does seem to have a pretty important functional flavour. 04:26:17 You have to do stuff like currying and recursion 04:27:05 "Since there's no looping statement, recursion must be used." < Hahah, same with ORK :) 04:27:47 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:33:40 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:37:40 mmmm curry 04:38:56 Mmmmmm, flesh of the innocent. 04:40:00 gregor: Any suggestions you'd make? 04:41:11 I haven't taken a detailed look, but as LORD OF OO ESOLANGS I will. 04:41:19 And will get back to you ;) 04:41:26 Busy right now :) 04:53:38 data encapsulation is the best feature of oop to use in tarpits :) 04:54:05 imho, of course 05:00:31 -!- hamako has quit. 05:17:52 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:37:45 nite 05:39:17 -!- mad has quit ("Christians believe Jesus can save your soul; atheists believe Hungry Man TV dinners are a quick and easy dinner solution for ). 07:26:17 -!- CXI has joined. 07:39:04 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 07:41:00 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:46:14 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server"). 11:11:52 -!- Gs30ng has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:21:32 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:21:38 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:37:16 -!- jix has joined. 12:50:12 -!- kipple has joined. 13:38:04 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:38:06 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:57:02 -!- cmeme has joined. 16:57:29 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:58:03 -!- cmeme has joined. 16:58:10 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:58:44 -!- cmeme has joined. 16:58:51 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:59:25 -!- cmeme has joined. 16:59:32 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:00:07 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:00:13 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:00:48 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:00:55 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:01:29 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:01:35 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:02:18 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:02:18 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:02:51 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:02:57 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:03:32 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:03:38 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:04:13 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:04:20 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:04:54 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:05:00 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:05:35 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:05:42 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:06:16 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:06:23 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:06:57 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:07:04 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:07:39 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:07:45 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:08:20 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:08:26 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:09:01 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:09:09 -!- cmeme has quit (Broken pipe). 17:09:42 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:09:48 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:10:23 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:10:29 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:11:04 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:11:11 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:11:45 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:11:52 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:12:27 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:12:33 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:13:08 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:13:14 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:13:20 hrmpf! 17:13:49 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:13:56 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:14:30 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:14:37 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:15:11 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:15:18 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:15:25 argh 17:15:37 can't someone kick cmeme? 17:15:53 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:15:59 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:16:34 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:16:40 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:17:15 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:17:21 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:17:56 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:18:02 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:18:37 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:18:43 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:19:03 -!- MadBrain2 has joined. 17:19:10 ban not kick 17:19:18 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:19:25 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:19:37 yeah, ban of course 17:19:59 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:20:07 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:20:41 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:20:48 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:24:31 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:24:58 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:25:32 -!- cmeme has joined. 18:16:11 -!- MadBrain2 has quit ("Christians believe Jesus can save your soul; atheists believe Hungry Man TV dinners are a quick and easy dinner solution for ). 18:29:44 -!- Keymaker has joined. 18:30:07 hello 18:32:54 cmeme: behave! 18:33:42 oh behave! :) 18:36:13 anyways; anyone good with unknown file formats? i mean, there's one old game i'd like to modify, but there are no modding tools for it.. :) 18:36:26 anyone good inspecting and realizing file formats? 18:36:36 the game is Skyroads 18:36:48 http://www.bluemoon.ee/history/skyroads/ 19:02:54 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 19:21:50 OH MAN MOXIE IS GOOD 19:22:06 8) 19:22:35 -!- CXII has joined. 19:22:35 * GregorR hasn't had a Moxie in weeks. 19:22:51 hmm 19:23:19 -!- CXI has quit (Connection timed out). 19:24:17 keymaker: I've almost no experience with figuring out file formats, but I guess it's a bit like esoteric programming ;) 19:24:39 yeah, although a lot more difficult :) 19:25:10 perhaps i'll try to figure the format out on my own, someday.. 19:25:32 what kind of files do you want to mod? 19:25:41 levels 19:25:46 ah 19:25:49 and if possible, graphics too 19:25:50 are they very complex? 19:25:57 the levels in game? 19:25:59 nope 19:26:05 so the format should be discoverable 19:26:16 try it out, the game :) 19:26:38 the full version is free and legal to download 19:26:39 http://www.bluemoon.ee/history/skyroads/ 19:26:53 (that is the site of the team that made the game) 19:27:06 looks old. does it require dosbox or something? 19:27:21 it does if you don't have windows or dos :) 19:27:38 it's pretty good game, i think 19:28:01 as well, there is some demo version of it (that i haven't tried), and some x-mas version with new levels and graphics 19:28:06 so that means i can compare the files 19:28:25 and that might help to discover the formats 19:31:31 yeah the levels look simple enough 19:31:44 there seem to be 3 levels per file 19:32:05 the world files are pictures 19:32:10 iirc 19:32:20 ah, the background? 19:32:23 yeah 19:32:34 at least i remember so, because i switched some once 19:32:56 trekdat.lzs might be the file (?) 19:33:10 or roads.lzs 19:33:23 or in the worst case both combined in some bizarre way 19:33:33 * Keymaker 's head explodes 19:34:27 no idea at all.. 19:37:19 it's annoying how every old game has the files packed in some strange format 19:38:47 both the worldN.lzs files and cars.lzs has the same header: "CMAPR". trekdat.lzs and roads.lzs does not 19:39:00 yeah 19:39:19 guess you just have to try and change some bytes and see what happens 19:39:25 cars.lzs is probably the graphics 19:39:27 yeah 19:39:36 oh, i think i know where the tracks are, now 19:39:44 i compared the full and the demo; 19:39:58 trekdat is equally sized in both of them 19:40:05 so that probably means there is some other stuff than tracks 19:40:11 while roads.lzs is different 19:40:30 in demo 4k and in full 17k 19:40:36 * kipple thinks it's probably easier to rewrite entire game than to reverse engineer the track files... 19:41:00 noooo!!! 19:41:06 well, then it's probably only a 17k file to decipher :) not too bad 19:41:12 :D 19:41:32 you see, rewriting would be pointless 19:41:38 the point is to modify the ORIGINAL game! 19:41:43 ok 19:41:45 ;) 19:42:18 as well, the muzax.lzs is equally sized in both versions 19:42:19 with 30 tracks that means only about 560 bytes of data per track. 19:42:46 could it be a music file or something? 19:42:48 and yeah 19:43:04 in the best case the game uses some big array, and every level data is equal size 19:43:13 but i have a bad feeling it won't get that easy 19:43:40 there are hardly any 0s in roads.lzs 19:43:44 yeah 19:43:56 and the full x-mas version has the same amount of levels, but the file size is different 19:44:50 * kipple lacks a decent hex editor for windows 19:45:00 try xvi32 19:45:07 it's pretty decent, and totally free 19:45:26 -!- calamari has joined. 19:47:08 only thing in this game that sucks is the sounds 19:47:13 but i hope those can be changed later, too :D 19:47:51 the sound didn't work for me 19:48:20 you're lucky :D 19:48:33 the music i haven't heard, since that doesn't work normally and haven't tried dosbox 19:49:00 anyways, i'd say we are almost done, only thing we need to is decipher the level format, we at least know where the data is located! 19:49:32 when that's done i'll make a level editor and small site for it.. 19:50:50 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:51:33 a theory: the first word in the file tells how many bytes of level data the first has. 19:51:57 the value is 124 19:52:23 hmm, could be 19:52:28 that is perhaps not much, but the first level is rather simple 19:52:30 it's most probably 2 byte integer 19:52:39 yeah, a word 19:52:44 worrd! 19:53:05 after the first word and another 124 bytes the next word is 130 19:54:25 hmm 19:54:28 could be a pattern, but maybe not.... 19:54:35 but after that, it doesn't make sense anymore 19:54:47 it doesn't? too bad 19:55:08 it can be for example amount of "objects" in the level 19:55:12 amount of 3d blocks 19:55:16 yeah 19:55:54 as well, probably in this file there is also stored some level settings; 19:56:07 like how fast the fuel burns in the level 19:56:12 or what kind of gravity there is 19:56:25 they may differ in levels.. 19:56:34 (if you play it long enough, you'll see) 19:56:49 ok 19:58:34 have you tried changing it? 19:58:49 i'm just about to :) 20:05:45 nice game.. was just playing it in qemu :) 20:06:16 nice that you like it :) and, hmmm, i changed data quite randomly in the beginning of the file, but see no difference in game.. 20:06:45 i'll make a zero attack 20:08:24 hmmmm.. nothing happened 20:08:45 different file then? 20:08:56 i don't think so.. 20:09:03 naturally it could be.. 20:09:11 but i don't think so, still :) 20:09:31 ha! it's right one! 20:09:46 the colour changed to black and the game crashed when i opened the level! 20:09:57 the terrain looked black, and then it crashed 20:10:06 seems we're on right tracks 20:12:59 another good news is that the size of tracks isn't hard coded anywhere in the exe or something 20:13:38 oh, and it's now 100% sure roads.lzs is the right file; i replaced it with the x-mas edition track file and it worked just perfectly 20:13:58 so, it seems the level sizes and stuff are defined in the track file itself 20:15:58 and when i switched the x-mas version demo tracks to the original full, it still works! 20:16:32 and if you try to load the levels that don't exist in the demo (levels > 6), it reads null to the level and acts strange 20:17:10 -!- Sgep has joined. 20:19:42 when it loads the null level, the gravity-o-meter (or something) shows 2100, so that must be some constant in the game 20:48:20 -!- CXII has changed nick to CXI. 20:55:03 bye 20:55:05 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 21:30:03 -!- jix has joined. 22:04:44 -!- madbrain has joined. 22:05:14 mm, hey 22:20:59 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:41:05 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Object_disoriented#Examples <- Wrote a couple of easy examples for object disoriented 22:54:31 ha! is that the easiest way to do Hello World? :D 22:55:32 well, no actually :) 22:56:25 The easiest way is just to do a bunch of oz and o(equivalent to 1) statements 22:56:34 but it's not as pretty :) 22:57:32 well congratulations on making a truly low-level OO-language :) 22:58:38 Thanks :) 22:59:28 I'm struggling to understand the cat example.... 23:00:28 Is OD unimplemented? 23:00:34 yes 23:00:44 AFAIK at least 23:00:48 Yeah, haven't written an implementation yet 23:01:27 Ah, well then I guess EgoBot isn't going to support it any time soon :P 23:03:16 I'll possibly need help on the recursion-optimisation-so-that-the-stack-doesn't-explode.. from those functional programming gurus 23:04:20 OK, I think I get the cat example :) 23:06:21 mostly I wonder if there's some more or less automatic of doing it, or if that would require solving some impossible problems and it's better just to optimise all the "usable" 23:06:23 cases 23:47:28 if I understand correctly, the halting problem only applies to undecidable languages, right? because all decidable languages either accept or reject 23:49:19 eh, it's complicated 23:49:21 are there any languages that by their syntax allow any decidable program to be written, but not undecidable? or is that impossible to enforce for the halting problem? 23:49:39 for->because of 23:50:22 I can imagine a string of if statements with no loops.. but I'm not sure that can handle every decidable language 23:51:09 string -> tree 23:51:57 The halting problem is more complex than that... basically, you have a program, which might terminate or have an infinite loop. There is no program that can differentiate for any program ever whether it terminates or not, without either going into an infinite loop for some programs, or simply don't decide for some programs 23:52:36 well, that's a function of the language syntax 23:52:47 if there are no loops, the program WILL terminate 23:53:02 calamari: Well, yeah 23:53:07 But what if it has loops? 23:53:19 well, I'm consdidering the case where there aren't loops 23:53:21 How do you determine whether these will terminate or not? 23:53:32 can that handle all decidable languages? 23:53:44 define "these"? 23:53:57 the loops 23:54:07 there are no loops 23:54:19 I'm not sure what were decidable languages... 23:54:33 They're a subclass of turing complete languages? 23:54:33 perhaps I need to review the definition.. afk to look it up 23:56:55 calamari: yes, the halting problem only applies to undecidable languages... in fact, that's what the word "undecidable" basically means: that you can't construct a program that can decide if another program will halt or not 23:57:09 Ah 23:57:12 I see 23:57:14 -!- cpressey_ has changed nick to cpressey. 23:57:51 So the problem is to know whether recursive function stack optimisation is decidable or not? 23:58:14 Chris: so I'm curious what a language that accepts only deciders would look like 23:58:43 Chris: or does that no make sense? hehe it's hard for me to put this in the correct wording 23:59:26 basically a language that doesn't have the halting problem and I can write deciders in 23:59:44 calamari: hmmm, ok. well... 23:59:55 take a turing machine and prove that it always halts. 23:59:58 that's a decider 2005-11-15: 00:00:09 oic.. I guess I 00:00:39 oic.. I guess I need a universal turing machine - minus the udeciable part, don't I :) 00:00:53 just because the halting problem says that, in general, you can't decide whether a TM halts or not, doesn't mean that you can't work it out for a specific TM... 00:00:56 udeciable -> undecidable 00:01:41 I think I'm still grappling for the correct term 00:01:45 for example: 00:02:09 I can create a language that computes for all finite state machines and never halts 00:02:31 I can create a language that computes for all pushdown automata and never halts 00:02:50 Can I create a language that computes for all deciders and never halts? 00:03:16 the answer should be yes, if I understand correctly 00:03:23 i don't know what you mean by "a language that computes for all Xs" 00:03:37 ahh 00:03:58 I mean that I can create a programming language where any possible finite state machine is understood and computed 00:04:17 so given the syntax, I can type in my fsm and run it 00:04:27 ok. 00:04:38 so a language for fsm's, easy enough 00:04:58 but 00:05:04 so the next step is a language for pda's.. no problem either 00:05:05 what do you mean by "and never halts"? 00:05:37 or did you mean "and always halts"? 00:05:48 so there is a lnaguage for turing complete languages, for exampel bf.. but it can halt.. so I want to back up one step 00:06:21 ok, i think i can guess at what you're asking 00:06:36 so a program run in this language would never halt.. but it would be a decider and not just a pda 00:06:58 but first i'm pretty sure you're typing "never halt" when you mean "always halt" :) 00:07:07 deciders always halt. 00:07:22 fsm's alwyays halt. (for finite input strings, anyway) 00:08:38 you're right.. I want the language to always halt 00:09:54 it just seems like there is a missing machine between the universal pda and universal tm, I'd call it the universal decider 00:09:59 ok, so... say you have a language for describing deciders... will it always halt? yes, because deciders always halt. HOWEVER - the problem is - how is it that your language only describes deciders? how do you know that you can't accidentally describe a Turing machine in your language? that's the hard part. 00:10:18 yeah hehe 00:10:24 it's probably not impossible though 00:10:26 and yeah 00:10:34 there are several "missing" languages 00:10:58 it disturbs me slightly that deterministic and non-deterministic PDA's accept different languages 00:11:28 right, the deterministic pda is also glossed over .. but still more powerful than a fsm 00:12:26 so I guess the question is, is it possible to construct a universal decider? 00:14:11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machines_that_always_halt 00:14:16 well... what exactly do you mean by "universal" in this context? i wasn't aware that there was a "universal" PDA 00:14:45 that's my fault 00:15:51 It should be possible to make a programming language that takes any arbitrary pda and computes it.. 00:15:55 well... ok, i guess there sort of is, in the weak sense that all context-free languages are equivalent to balanced parentheses... if you ignore the details... but that's sort of unsatisfying 00:16:10 yeah, ok 00:16:17 a language-for-describing-pda's 00:16:22 right 00:16:22 sort of a meta-language 00:16:35 so I need a language-for-describing-deciders 00:16:42 but, could that meta-language be processed by a PDA, itself? 00:16:43 well want, not need :) 00:17:07 oic.. universal doesn't work there :) 00:17:25 hmmm 00:17:29 yeah, i don't think it does 00:17:43 easier to think about for fsm's though 00:17:59 that wiki page I think answers it 00:18:01 would be hard to imagine a language-for-describing-fsm's that could itself be described by an fsm 00:18:08 In practice, a machine that always halts can be implemented as a programming language with restricted flow control instructions, so that no program (i.e. description) will ever cause the machine to enter an infinite loop. Note that this does not imply that the language is free of looping capabilities ? all we require is that such loops be finite 00:18:27 right 00:18:48 so basically my if statement language is right.. because that's just a loop unrolling 00:18:50 calamari: check out the book that's referenced on that wiki article, if you can 00:19:17 which 00:19:49 I have the Sipser book 00:20:11 I don't have Brainerd, W.S., Landweber, L.H. (1974), Theory of Computation 00:20:20 if that's what you mean 00:21:00 what i mean is: check your local math library :) it's not actually a very good book, but they explain what they mean by PL-{GOTO} better than the wiki article does 00:21:51 I guess you don't mean the Sipser book, because it doesn't mention PL-GOTO :) 00:22:05 oh, sorry 00:22:19 i guess more references were added to that page since i last looked at at 00:22:29 that's okay, I whittled it down :) 00:22:29 yeah, i meant brainerd & landweber. 00:22:56 do you own the book? 00:23:17 no, i just have it on loan 00:23:28 indefinate loan, so long as i keep remembering to renew it online :) 00:23:31 ahh.. does it describe lambda calculus? 00:23:40 hm, not sure. one sec 00:24:48 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:25:07 cool, university has it 00:27:11 ok.... looks like the last chapter talks a little about lambda calc, but, the chapter is really about combinatory logic (SKI calculus) so it looks mostly incidental 00:27:32 cool 00:27:58 looks like I can buy it from amazon.com for 55 cents :) 00:28:05 thanks for looking that up 00:28:33 55 cents?!?? 00:28:37 no problem :) 00:29:30 I don't think I can go wrong for that price.. snagging it 00:31:18 yup, 55 cents... wild. 00:44:11 calamari: btw, you might be interested in this: for one of my classes we get to do a project where we do some static analysis of Java code... I was thinking of doing some sort of halting analysis... basically, for each method of an object, determine if it is guaranteed to always halt :) 00:49:44 which class? they mentioned static analysis in my computer engineering class 00:50:04 -!- zerozero has joined. 00:52:19 "definition of programming languages" 00:52:54 -!- zerozero has quit (Client Quit). 00:53:36 which is actually a pretty cool course overall. i thought it would be easy, but i've actually learned quite a bit 00:54:34 -!- CXI has quit (Connection timed out). 01:18:59 -!- CXI has joined. 01:36:13 heh, i'm taking a course called that 01:37:25 you're not in my university are you? 01:37:42 static analysis of java code is the project we're doing as well... 01:41:05 you better not turn out to be fromD my uni, cause then i'd have to buy you a beer or something. 02:05:48 heh. 02:06:08 lament: does the name "Spotty Dotty" mean anything to you? 02:06:15 cpressey: jesus christ 02:06:21 hahahaha 02:06:28 i never suspected! 02:06:30 you must not read the names of the posters on webct :) 02:06:42 i never went there 02:06:50 i can't say i particularly care about that course 02:07:09 anyway, i'm the guy who sits in the front row and showed up in a mask for hallDoween 02:08:36 yeah, i suspected - since your name isn't exactly common 02:11:03 anyway, i must go now - see you tomorrow i guess... bizarre 02:12:28 ok, cya tomorrow :) bizarre, indeed. 03:58:20 -!- Robdgreat has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:08:33 -!- Sgep has quit. 04:45:28 -!- Arrogant has joined. 04:46:11 -!- Arrogant has quit (Client Quit). 04:47:30 -!- Arrogant has joined. 04:52:21 -!- madbrain has quit ("Christians believe Jesus can save your soul; atheists believe Hungry Man TV dinners are a quick and easy dinner solution for ). 05:09:45 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:15:09 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.5/undefined]"). 05:15:41 -!- Arrogant has joined. 05:32:47 -!- Keymaker has joined. 05:34:20 whoaly sh!t.. does this mean lament and cpressey are in the same university?! 05:34:33 and the same class 05:34:41 woah! 05:34:52 what are the odds for that happening? 05:35:29 well, I dunno.. maybe people in candaa are crazier than the rest of the world.. might skew the stats ;) 05:35:38 `:) 05:35:43 awesome 05:39:02 "Maybe"? 05:39:10 Don't you mean "It is a statistically proven fact that" 05:40:33 * calamari suggests that GregorR read the book "How to lie with statistics" 05:41:22 Heh 05:42:26 GregorR: http://www.jhuapl.edu/newscenter/pressreleases/2005/051109.asp 05:42:36 Yes, I've heard of the book. 05:42:41 (Don't know if that's what that link is though :P) 05:42:52 nope 05:43:09 Oooh, cool. 05:47:14 hmm, back to the skyroads :) 05:53:14 *yawn* 06:14:52 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 06:25:28 dum dum dum 06:26:50 Yeah you are HAHAHAHAHAH 06:26:53 :P 06:27:01 :( 06:29:14 You walked into that brick wall ;) 06:29:28 :( 06:29:38 I'm not stupid! I'm neuron challenged! 06:31:22 ha! discovered some new things from roads.lzs! :D gotta go to skool now. :/ 06:31:25 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 07:39:28 -!- Arrogant has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:37 -!- Keymaker has joined. 08:11:39 (back for four hours.. :)) 10:29:26 gotta go, need food. 10:29:27 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 13:42:30 -!- Keymaker has joined. 13:49:41 -!- kipple has joined. 13:49:45 kipple! 13:49:50 hello 13:50:13 ho 13:50:34 now i know where in the file the level data is read from 13:51:00 good question... 13:51:07 i said i know :) 13:51:09 what have you found out so far? 13:51:12 aha 13:51:14 hehe 13:51:18 sorry. I misread 13:51:21 ok 13:51:41 now != how ;) 13:52:15 :) in every level data piece there's the variables for how fast o2 goes down etc.. 13:52:23 but the actual level format is still bizarre 13:52:30 i've tried changing things but it's just crazy 13:52:44 i've managed to change colours 13:53:03 i have no idea how the level pieces are formed, and how the coordinates are set 13:53:42 once i changed only two bytes a bit, and the whole level got very strange 13:53:52 so i have no idea how the blocks are placed 13:57:52 well, I guess you just have to try more... 13:58:20 i will 13:58:42 actually at the moment i'm in hex editor.. 14:00:16 hmm, it crashed.. 14:01:10 hm 14:01:52 i suppose the format needs to be correct.. x) 14:08:54 trekdat sounds like trackdata, so i suppose there's something vital inside, but i'd assume it's the 3d models 14:10:14 seen this: http://skystreets.kaosfusion.com/ ? 14:10:48 yeah. the "clone" sucks, and the author hasn't discovered any files except sounds 14:10:59 and iirc he doesn't tell the format on the page either 14:11:11 too bad 14:11:27 yeah 14:12:57 well the source code is available, so if you need to mod the sounds you could look at those 14:13:20 yeah, although iirc the clone had own sounds, not the original ones 14:13:56 by the way, just discovered muzax.lzs is really the music file, and not any game related 14:14:19 i renamed the file and started the game, and when toggled the music on it crashed, since couldn't find the music file 14:14:47 -!- jix has joined. 14:18:59 i really hope they don't have any bizarre compression of their own.. 14:27:45 trekdat seems to be exactly same in the different versions 14:27:50 thanks heaven 14:28:13 that means that the level data should be entirely in roads.lzs 14:32:09 .lzs lz is often lempel-ziv (compression (but there are different lz variants) 14:32:10 ) 14:33:01 hmmm 14:33:05 cheers 14:33:50 could you send me the roads.lzs file? 14:34:54 http://www.bluemoon.ee/history/skyroads/skyroads.zip 14:36:37 hmm, this is interesting -- it says on some page that Lempel-Ziv(-Welch) is a popular data compression often used in images 14:36:57 it could make sense that the level data would be pictures, instead 14:37:03 or dunno 14:37:35 yeah lzw is used in gif 14:37:42 ok 14:37:45 lz77 is used in zip and gzip (in combination with huffman) 14:37:51 and in png 14:38:06 lzw was patented until april05 lz77 was always patent-free 14:38:16 that's why png uses lz77 instead of lzw 14:38:34 ok :) i don't know much about compression.. 14:39:03 a lot of the lzs files share the same header CMAPr, but some don't so there is at least two different file formats I think 14:39:26 yeah, all that have those are images in the game 14:39:56 too all the files use the same extension for some reason 14:40:09 anyway, it was pretty common to use the same extension on all data files regardless of format in the old days (perhaps now too) 14:40:10 maybe they are all compressed with lzs, whatever it is 14:40:17 yeah 14:40:24 i know, but it's annoying :) 14:40:33 I doubt the extension says anything at all, but it's worth checking out I guess 14:40:50 yeah, but why would they use lzs? 14:40:53 it doesn't make any sense 14:40:59 the game is called skyroads 14:41:22 maybe 0x10 0x00 0x00 0x00 is a little-endian adress (byte 13) 14:41:41 in which file? 14:41:46 HELPMENU.LZS 14:41:59 no idea 14:42:02 idea! cmap == color map it contains the pallette data... PICT == picture data, contains the picture 14:42:03 I doubt they use 32bit ints 14:42:15 hmm! 14:42:33 good idea 14:42:36 really good 14:42:45 let's see.. 14:42:59 and the space between CMAP and PICT are 51 bytes thats 17 3 byte pairs 14:43:06 whoops 14:43:08 bbl 14:43:13 ok 14:43:42 there's only ten ways to find that out, and i'll try the first: hex editoring the file 14:43:50 I think you're on to something there. but it doesn't help for the levels 14:44:03 nope, but i want to change graphics too :D 14:45:10 jix is right! yes! 14:45:55 i changed the first 3F 3F 3F of helpmenu to 3F 00 00 (red), and texts that were white show up red now 14:51:16 cool :) 14:52:19 i don't know what format it is, or how to conver it to some other format, but i know one thing: one image file can have more than one image. the helpfile has the two help screens inside it 15:01:25 it's very probable the roads.lzs uses that lzw (or something) compression 15:02:23 there probably are track pieces that are just connected to each other 15:04:37 I think it's a bit unlikely that they've compressed the level data. the levels are so simple that compressing wouldn't save that much space. And decompressing is expensive on old computers 15:04:49 hmmm 15:05:10 but there's some compression in almost every game 15:05:15 including the old ones 15:08:39 and there got to be something in this, too. for example, each row can have stuff on 3 level, on 7 places. that's 21 per row. and if one level has for example 100 rows, and three bytes for rgb value, that'd make 6300 bytes. even more if the stuff would be represented as integers. and the demo roads.lzs is 4k and has six tracks :) 15:10:55 that is only if they're stored as "tiles". they could be areas 15:11:15 yeah 15:11:41 and they don't need 3 bytes for color. only one 15:11:46 but that'd probably mean trekdat is filled with different areas, that all of the versions use 15:12:14 but there are colours that use three bytes, in the roads 15:12:26 what do you mean? 15:12:27 for example, i just today changed couple of them to pink, white etc.. 15:12:53 there definitely is colours in rgb form, in roads.lzs 15:14:00 the video mode is MCGA I think, which only handles 256 colors (at teh same time) 15:14:12 so there is probably a palette defined somewhere 15:14:24 but maybe I'm wrong 15:14:38 hmmm, the colours can be from 0 0 0 to 63 63 63 in this one 15:14:58 and i have no idea how it works.. :\ 15:15:22 if one sets values larger than 3F (63) the colours go strange 15:15:38 perhaps the palette has only defined 63 colors... 15:15:45 64 I mean :) 15:15:48 hehe 15:16:36 if that is the case, then color info could possibly be stored in 6 bit integers 15:17:11 yes, but i think they wouldn't try to save space that much :) 15:17:21 don't be too sure of that 15:17:45 Standard VGA only has 6 bits of color for each channel. 15:17:52 hmm 15:18:14 we might be on to something... :) 15:18:18 :) 15:19:59 IIRC the palette control registers take values between 0x00 - 0x3f, too, although can't be sure of that - it's been ages since I last wrote anything that accessed hardware directly. :p 15:20:17 :) 15:21:05 grrh. i wish this format can be discovered some day.. 15:21:44 naturally we could read the exe in assembler.. and try to find out what it does.. :) 15:21:49 *disassembler 15:22:28 ..but it's not that easy job.. 15:37:24 i wish i'd get the original level editor they used.. 16:30:08 I've been disassembling it with ida-pro a bit, but it's still a.. mess: http://gehennom.org/~fis/skyroads-graph.png But at least I've located the fopen/fread-like functions. Next I should figure out what the routines that use those do. 16:30:47 I'd like to get a linux version of that thing, though - using wine is a pain. 16:32:56 Although I think the linux version lacks the rather usable GUI. 16:34:28 cool! 16:34:53 Now I need to go grocery-shopping. -> 16:34:55 try dosbox 16:35:03 when you're back 16:35:10 dosbox.sourceforge.net 16:35:30 or did you mean linux version of that program? probably.. :\ 16:40:22 anyways, hopefuly you'll discover something, every piece of info is required! :) 16:44:15 I have an unverified guess that the first 128 bytes of ROADS.LZS is a header of some sort. It's too symmetric to be anything else: 16:44:18 fis@colin:~/tmp/skyroads$ hexdump -n 128 -x ROADS.LZS 16:44:20 0000000 007c 08c0 02cb 0302 0432 064a 064c 0348 16:44:23 0000010 07af 0524 096b 06e4 0b42 02a0 0c9e 0348 16:44:26 0000020 0e10 05cc 101a 03d4 117c 046e 1332 0ae2 16:44:28 0000030 15b9 08f8 17aa 0620 1a02 0cf6 1dc2 0afe 16:44:36 0000040 21b4 077e 23d2 085e 25f9 08ea 282c 080a 16:44:36 0000050 29ef 0a2c 2c6a 071c 2e86 08c0 30d5 0c40 16:44:36 0000060 342a 048a 35ea 0834 37c0 0a72 3a91 0914 16:44:40 0000070 3c66 0ccc 3ea7 0770 40c4 0af0 0008 0082 16:45:44 Note that for even columns, the higher byte seems to always be <0x10, and in odd columns it's ~0x00-0x40 and the numbers are monotonically increasing. 16:46:08 Right, the shop. -> 16:46:25 yeah, it's a header 16:46:34 re 16:46:34 i've discovered that, i'll upload my notes soon 16:49:25 i'm going to reverse engineer the picture files 16:49:31 cool! 16:49:39 that'd be awesome 16:49:52 and that without a x86 cpu! 16:49:57 (or emulator) 16:50:01 :) 16:50:41 jix: if you can, document everything! :) 16:50:55 i'm going to do that 16:51:00 ok 16:55:24 -!- calamari has joined. 17:22:57 fizzie: here's my notes about the header http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/skyroads/roads.txt 17:23:07 here's an ugly site for this project: http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/skyroads/ 17:24:39 * calamari notes, INT 10h, AX=1010h, Set Individual DAC Register.. 17:24:56 that's what sets rgb 0-63 17:25:21 where? 17:25:28 (in which file, i mean) 17:25:32 I should also note that quickbasic had the same 0-63 limitations.. so that's mildly scary ;) 17:25:49 Keymaker: that's in my book, pc interrupts 17:26:00 ok 17:26:15 Keymaker: you can also look it up online, http://www.ctyme.com/rbrown.htm 17:28:07 the executable doesn't appear to be compressed 17:29:42 uses pupses and pops for function calls 17:29:52 pupses -> pushes 17:30:12 :) 17:30:44 definitely not compiled quickbasic 17:31:00 I know what that looks like 17:31:25 ok.. time for class 17:31:27 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 17:31:28 ok 17:31:51 and, it's most probably done in c or pascal, i'd guess.. may be assembler too 17:35:20 * GregorR is so glad he has long hair. 17:35:29 * GregorR never needs to buy a scarf. 17:35:49 -!- mtve2 has joined. 17:36:28 hah :) 17:36:55 -!- mtve has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:43:11 Or earmuffs for that matter. 17:47:50 -!- marcan_ has joined. 17:56:13 It doesn't much look like compiled C either. A lot of functions pass parameters in registers, although some do use the stack too. 17:56:31 fizzie, noticed that link about the header? 17:56:42 Yes. 17:56:46 o-k 17:57:09 I'll continue digging around the disassembled exe when I have some free time. Must eat, and then there's some work to do. 17:57:30 ok 17:57:32 It could very well have been written in ASM ... I mean, this is DOS ... 17:57:37 thanks for the help! 17:57:52 yes, could be 17:58:04 the game is quite old, and it's 3d 18:08:51 -!- marcan has quit (Connection timed out). 18:52:57 well, gotta go. 18:53:29 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 19:21:46 -!- calamari has joined. 19:21:49 hi 19:23:38 after I logged off I realized I said it wrong.. the function is the one pushing and popping, to protect the registers at call 19:23:56 anyhow.. next class in a few mins ;) 19:23:59 -!- calamari has quit (Client Quit). 19:44:12 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 19:49:05 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 19:58:07 -!- jix has joined. 20:06:04 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 20:44:40 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 20:48:43 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:23:32 -!- Sgep has joined. 23:09:41 -!- madbrain has joined. 2005-11-16: 00:53:17 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Ik zen der is mee weg"). 01:34:36 -!- Arrogant has joined. 01:45:33 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:46:58 puh. that was one marathon wiki-editing session ... 01:47:11 anyway, the year categories are back! :) 02:00:38 -!- Arrogant has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-"). 02:15:45 El teh w00t! 02:15:59 wtf? 02:16:56 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:17:13 -!- CXI has joined. 03:05:33 -!- Arrogant has joined. 03:59:22 * madbrain adds his language to 2005 04:02:35 -!- Arrogant has quit (" Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-"). 04:15:32 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:15:48 -!- puzzlet has quit (Client Quit). 04:15:54 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:24:47 * kipple likes mediawiki templates 04:25:09 the recursion 04:26:36 recursion is your friend :) 04:27:09 void recursion() { printf("recursion is your friend :)\n"); recursion(); } int main() { recursion(); } 04:27:23 recursion means you don't have to implement a looping construct :) 04:28:44 afaik mediawiki's template recursion is allowed but to the limit of 3 or something 04:38:21 -!- Arrogant has joined. 04:49:51 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:00:00 -!- Arrogant has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:00:24 -!- madbrain has left (?). 05:11:46 -!- Arrogant has joined. 05:59:06 -!- marcan_ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:59:06 -!- cmeme has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:59:14 -!- lindi- has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:59:14 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:59:14 -!- puzzlet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:59:21 -!- tokigun has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:01:25 -!- puzzlet has joined. 06:01:25 -!- marcan_ has joined. 06:01:25 -!- cmeme has joined. 06:01:25 -!- lindi- has joined. 06:01:25 -!- tokigun has joined. 06:01:25 -!- fizzie has joined. 06:09:22 -!- Sgep has quit. 06:55:42 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 06:56:41 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:58:42 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:05:17 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:08:34 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:10:36 -!- GregorR has joined. 07:21:06 -!- Arrogant has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:31:06 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:40:15 * GregorR considers putting maple syrup in his hot cocoa. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:12:17 -!- puzzlet has joined. 11:03:59 -!- Keymaker has joined. 11:26:21 ah, home sweet home. at the moment i should be at the math class but i decided not to attend, for several reasons. 11:58:10 -!- kipple has joined. 12:36:11 it's snowing!! 12:36:14 finally 12:56:04 We beat you :) started snowing yesterday here 12:56:11 :) 12:56:38 grhh, guess what? now it stopped raining already.. 12:56:54 i just turned my head left and noticed.. 12:57:04 i hate this summer 12:58:05 something is seriously wrong when you can walk your jacket open and without gloves or hat at this time of the year 12:58:16 oh, and the grass is green.. 12:58:33 at least part of it 13:03:47 -!- calamari has joined. 13:06:13 is today tuesday or wednesday? 13:06:26 wednesday :) 13:06:30 really? 13:06:35 oh.. fast week.. 13:06:36 :D 13:06:48 well, the sooner the weekend, the better 13:15:50 the snow started again! 13:29:09 No snow here. 13:31:52 it hasn't snowed here in years... :( 13:33:16 fizzie: But at least there's frost. 13:36:11 fizzie: too bad :( around here there was snow for couple of days about a month ago, but there hasn't been a flake since then.. until now 13:36:34 i hope the snow that stays would come soon 13:38:31 We had a day of snow ~a month ago too. 13:41:35 Nice documentation here: 13:41:37 You can override DefaultServlet with you own implementation and use that in your web.xml declaration. If you can undertand what was just said, we will assume yo can read the code to DefaultServlet servlet and make the appropriate adjustments. (If not, then that method isn't for you) 13:41:53 lol 13:42:05 hmm 14:06:00 does this page work for anybody? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonsillolith 14:06:31 yes 14:06:58 weird.. I can get to other wikipedia pages, but that one just sits there and spins 14:07:09 :\ 14:07:32 aha 14:07:43 copying and pasting the url into a new window did the trick 14:07:49 ok 14:07:54 guess it's a ff bug 14:07:59 yeah 14:10:45 cool.. maybe I'll try that hydrogen peroxide trick.. pencil wasn't working 14:13:35 I'd previously assumed it was a piece of decayed food that found its way back up. 14:21:32 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:07:58 i'll go to try to get something to eat 15:08:07 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 15:34:35 -!- jix has joined. 15:35:55 hi jix 16:10:13 moin 16:10:53 -!- Keymaker has joined. 16:11:03 moin Keymaker 16:11:11 hi jix 18:01:39 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 18:47:44 -!- CXII has joined. 18:48:49 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:11:33 -!- Keymaker has joined. 20:24:59 hmm. looks like the years 1994-1996 were bad year for esoteric programming languages. 20:25:23 :) 20:27:34 in fact, that goes all up until 2000 20:28:15 yeah 20:28:33 2005 looks to be one of the best :) 20:28:39 yeah 20:29:04 hwo goes your skyroads project? 20:29:23 i was just going to say that the boom started when the millenium changed.. 20:29:28 that.. not well 20:29:42 i mean, i haven't managed to discover the level format 20:29:49 i just can't understand it! 20:30:11 but the millennium started in 2001... :P 20:30:33 :D 20:31:31 i assume everyone got annoyed of the "normal" languages and wanted something with less instructions 20:36:46 wierd is a nice language :) 20:41:24 there.. added some 2000 & 2001 action for ya :) 20:41:48 :) 20:42:51 calamari: honestly, i got an idea to make esolang based on the towers of hanoi, before i found out you had done it already 20:43:09 but i couldn't decide what instructions to use etc.. 20:43:31 but naturally your language had been out for four years at the time i got the idea :) 20:43:42 ok, three years 20:44:54 hehe 20:45:07 well, maybe you can do better than I did with a version 2 20:45:33 hmm? version 2? 20:45:46 having the same name and different lang would make it more esoteric.. right? :) 20:46:17 hehe 20:46:38 oops, i read wrong, i read it that you had version 2 somewhere.. :) 20:47:10 nope... I was thinking of making a spaghetti 2 tho 20:47:23 ok 20:47:39 by the way, numberix was among the first esolang specs i read :) the language is somehow old school 20:47:43 at least visually 20:49:13 thanks :) I was hoping for that 20:49:51 it's really a hack of a language tho.. I threw a bunch of different ideas together.. not much of a theme 20:50:10 hehe 20:50:46 iirc when i read the specs in web it had some blue page and there was some calamari picture 20:50:58 when I was writing the bf interpreter in spaghetti there were some parts that were clumsy.. could probably be fixed 20:51:51 Keymaker: this? http://calamari.8k.com/numberix/ 20:52:07 yeah, it's that! :) 20:52:21 I'm very surprised that site is still working 20:52:43 it was free hosting and they switched to pay (or get deleted).. I guess they missed me 20:52:55 hehe 20:53:24 maybe they decided not to go pay.. still has a free ad 20:53:34 yeah 20:53:59 ..and i couldn't understand the calamari picture on the site, it felt even more esoteric :) 20:54:19 the picture was a link to my old homepage 20:54:29 ok 20:54:45 but back then i didn't know of your screen name and so on 20:54:46 the squid lives on, here: kidsquid.com 20:55:02 hehe 20:55:23 but these days seeing three lemon slices as logo makes perfect sense.. 20:55:27 I "borrowed" the pic from an online aquarium a LONG time ago.. 20:57:01 hahaha.. the Essies. 20:57:16 forgot all about that 20:57:19 hm? 20:57:31 it was a esolang creation contest 20:57:35 ok 20:57:52 where they were held? 20:57:55 I think it ran 2 or 3 times but was ended when there was only one entry 20:57:59 at the mailing list? 20:58:05 hmm 20:58:10 perhaps they should be ran again :) 21:17:46 -!- Sgep has joined. 21:23:41 -!- ZeroOne has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:24:18 -!- ZeroOne_ has joined. 21:28:05 i think i'll watch tron 21:28:36 the classic hacking movie ;) 21:46:19 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:42:25 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:46:09 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 22:49:14 -!- kipple has joined. 22:56:07 -!- madbrain has joined. 23:34:04 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 23:34:55 -!- Arrogant has joined. 23:35:14 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:38:00 -!- kipple has joined. 23:54:57 -!- Arrogant has quit ("I AM QUIT HAVE A NICE DAY"). 2005-11-17: 00:00:24 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 00:08:52 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:18:31 -!- madbrain has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:18:49 -!- cmeme has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:18:49 -!- lindi- has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:18:49 -!- marcan_ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:18:49 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:18:50 -!- puzzlet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:18:50 -!- GregorR-L has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:18:50 -!- tokigun has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:19:39 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:19:39 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 00:19:39 -!- madbrain has joined. 00:19:39 -!- marcan_ has joined. 00:19:39 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:19:39 -!- lindi- has joined. 00:19:39 -!- tokigun has joined. 00:19:39 -!- fizzie has joined. 00:22:25 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:24:51 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:26:44 -!- madbrain has quit ("Christians believe Jesus can save your soul; atheists believe Hungry Man TV dinners are a quick and easy dinner solution for ). 01:36:36 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:40:51 -!- tokigun has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:40:55 -!- GregorR-L has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:41:35 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:41:35 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 01:41:35 -!- tokigun has joined. 01:43:02 Yay netsplits 02:12:57 -!- madbrain has joined. 02:20:49 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:28:00 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("AWAAAAAAAAAY!!!"). 02:47:27 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:49:23 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 03:22:05 -!- Sgep has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:04:52 -!- CXII has changed nick to CXI. 04:21:36 -!- GregorR has quit (SendQ exceeded). 04:26:29 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:29:29 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:31:46 -!- madbrain has quit ("Christians believe Jesus can save your soul; atheists believe Hungry Man TV dinners are a quick and easy dinner solution for ). 04:36:38 -!- marcan has joined. 04:50:05 -!- marcan_ has quit (Connection timed out). 05:03:00 cpressey: i didn't see you in cpsc311! 05:05:50 Skipperrrrrrrrr!!! 05:06:23 no, i just don't know what he looks like 05:06:32 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:09:57 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:18:37 -!- Arrogant has joined. 05:27:08 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 05:29:21 lament: i'm the guy with the beard who usually sits three or four rows back on the left but adjacent to the aisle 05:30:00 cpressey: it's a cs course! Everybody has a beard! 05:30:07 well, like two people do 05:30:35 oh, well in that case, you should know that i wear glasses, too. 05:30:37 :) 05:31:47 could you be any more stereotypical?! 05:33:03 okay, i'll look for you 05:41:35 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 07:05:23 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:05:26 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:21:02 lament, i never noticed you had been playing idle RPG 07:21:30 well, i just quit :) 07:27:17 do you play nethack? 07:30:18 Nethack ... online!!! 07:36:22 -!- Arrogant has quit ("I AM QUIT HAVE A NICE DAY"). 07:37:58 sometimes 07:38:02 but not good 07:38:58 i've gone as far as Oracle at the best games 07:39:14 down to like 6th floor or something 07:39:19 ah 07:39:28 I've gotten to the 20-something'th. 07:39:31 With only one key. 07:39:35 j 07:40:00 no >? 07:40:13 j is dig :) 07:40:37 no it's not. 07:40:46 Whoops 07:40:49 Whatever IS dig 07:40:53 Is what I used :P 07:40:59 i thought j was move down 07:40:59 (It was a while ago ;) ) 07:41:01 like vim 07:41:09 Oh, yeah, it is. 07:48:20 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Sleepitime"). 07:50:25 -!- ChanServ has quit (Shutting Down). 07:53:10 -!- ChanServ has joined. 07:53:10 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:17:19 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:18:17 -!- Keymaker has joined. 08:19:52 -!- GregorR__ has joined. 08:19:59 -!- GregorR__ has changed nick to GregorR. 08:22:19 rgrghrg 08:22:30 rgrghrg eh. 08:22:35 :) 08:22:57 my second version to the brainfuck competition is done 08:23:32 have to optimizzzzeee.. 08:23:44 xX 08:23:46 I want to drink a Moxie ... 08:23:50 But it's 12:15 ... 08:23:55 And I need to go to sleep. 08:24:01 hmm 08:26:12 * GregorR drinks water instead. 08:26:15 Not as tasty. 08:28:00 ugh.. water.. 09:11:51 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 09:12:14 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:10:50 -!- puzzlet has joined. 10:15:21 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:22:12 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 13:49:47 -!- Keymaker has joined. 13:59:15 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 14:13:44 -!- jix has joined. 15:19:13 -!- kipple has joined. 16:59:03 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:17:51 -!- puzzlet has joined. 18:25:03 -!- Keymaker has joined. 18:29:41 * Keymaker eats german snacks 18:30:02 german snacks? 18:30:11 something "Snack-Mix" 18:30:34 at least its bought from Lidl, so i assume it's german 18:31:08 hrhr 18:31:25 and the texts are first in german.. 18:31:42 so you've got Lidl in Finland as well? 18:31:47 yeah 18:31:50 many of them 18:32:05 they recently arrived here in Norway (with some controversy) 18:32:12 :) 18:32:23 lidl has tasty bitter lemon... 18:33:00 haven't tasted that 18:33:03 I tasted their beer last weekend. that was rather crappy (just let them stay on the wall!) 18:33:15 :D 18:33:26 which beer was it? 18:33:40 don't remember. a friend of mine bought it 18:33:46 * jix doesn't like beer at all (except 99 bottles of it ;) ) 18:33:47 the bottles were really long though 18:35:17 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:39:55 -!- calamari has joined. 18:39:59 hi 18:43:19 hi 18:50:31 blah.. aciddentally pressed enter and the wiki submitted prematurely 18:52:01 :\ 19:01:40 well, it's better than accidentally closing the browser window... 19:01:50 yeah 19:08:41 * calamari notes that many of the languages on http://web.archive.org/web/20000817232901/www.catseye.mb.ca/lala/index.html aren't in the wiki 19:09:31 hmm. something should be done about that. 19:09:37 does specs still exist for those? 19:10:50 yep 19:11:08 just follow the links from the site above 19:11:48 I've been adding them to the language list as I find them, but I was mostly adding years not articles :) 19:12:05 I also found bak.. needs a lot of work 19:12:25 (found as in found a page with info about it) 19:13:22 a lot of these langs don't have dates.. so I've been relying on file dates from interpreters and the wb machine archives, etc.. I can usually find something 19:14:10 so far I don't have years for: 23, Aheui, and Automouse (sometime before 2000) 19:15:20 hmm, yeah, many names i've never even heard 19:15:44 and a lot of them are by chris too. are they not on the new site? 19:16:31 dunno.. I just discovered them when looking up the year of am old lang on chris's original site 19:16:47 they could also be on the new site, but a lot isn't 19:18:00 this link is probably better.. as it's newer 19:18:01 http://web.archive.org/web/20030211031900/http://www.catseye.mb.ca/lala/index.html 19:29:11 okay I stopped at Braintwist :) will continue another day 19:29:22 bbl.. class 19:29:23 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 19:57:50 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 21:21:30 nite.. zzZZz 21:21:33 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 21:23:14 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 21:53:09 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:06:13 -!- calamari has joined. 22:06:20 hi 22:07:14 * calamari loves going into the UofA science library.. it's a nerd paradise.. 5 floors of journals and technical books 22:11:15 -!- Sgep has joined. 22:12:47 * calamari needs to find a good book on digital disc laser head tracking 22:32:19 anyone have access to pkzipfix ? 22:32:53 * GregorR watches the subject of calamari's conversation bounce around. 22:34:08 ahh.. zip -qF 22:35:35 GregorR: I've been wanting to create a digital copy of my analog star wars laserdiscs 22:36:22 GregorR: I finally found a book that got me most of the way after the data is read, but first of course I must read the data 22:37:19 seems like the easiest way would be to sacrifice an existing ld player and use its laser and hardware assembly, but I'll need to replace the brains of it 22:38:13 And what does this have to do with pkzipfix? 22:38:26 absolutely nothing 22:38:39 it has to do with the science library :) 22:38:52 and then I started researching language dates again 22:39:11 and found old 96-98 mailing list archives, but the zip was corrupted 22:40:36 And how do you adjust for timezone in C? >_O 22:41:15 I'll let you know in 2038 22:41:37 lol 22:41:40 By then you don't 8-D 22:41:51 And Y2K was NOTHING 22:41:53 :) 22:42:35 seems that the mailing list started off with befunge discussion exclusively 22:46:17 the list started out as the Befunge Mailing List according to http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Chris_Pressey 22:46:38 cool, just got to the Blank announcement on the Befunge list :) 22:49:40 blank was 1997 not 2001 22:50:05 * calamari may need to go back and delete all the dates based on the wb machine 22:54:27 lol 22:54:48 temporary repaired archive location: http://kidsquid.com/bfml.zip 22:55:37 bbl.. meeting 22:55:39 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 2005-11-18: 00:13:18 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:39:17 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:46:02 -!- calamari has joined. 00:48:51 re's 00:52:17 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 00:55:58 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:03:10 -!- puzzlet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:03:16 -!- tokigun has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:03:17 -!- cmeme has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:03:17 -!- lindi- has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:03:17 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:04:06 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:04:06 -!- tokigun has joined. 01:04:06 -!- cmeme has joined. 01:04:06 -!- lindi- has joined. 01:04:06 -!- fizzie has joined. 01:39:18 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:40:00 -!- Sgep has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:05:17 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:29:49 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 03:31:16 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:52:40 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:11:46 -!- Arrogant has joined. 05:45:38 cpressey: i still didn't see you! 05:46:36 Maybe, after all that, you're just in insanely similar classes :) 05:46:49 no, he's just hiding 05:47:36 no way another class would have Spotty Dotty. 06:10:11 -!- Paragon_ has joined. 06:29:34 -!- Arrogant has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:32:56 -!- Paragon_ has changed nick to Arrogant. 06:56:22 http://tokigun.dnip.net/test/mediawiki/index.php?title=Template:AddTable&action=edit 06:56:30 Yay for MediaWiki programming 07:04:22 Hmm, is that TC? 07:13:55 dunno 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:12:32 -!- GregorR has changed nick to GregorR[zzz]. 09:17:56 -!- Arrogant has quit ("I AM QUIT HAVE A NICE DAY"). 09:34:20 -!- CXI has quit (Connection timed out). 10:12:18 -!- CXI has joined. 12:16:11 -!- kipple has joined. 14:08:55 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:11:56 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:38:41 -!- jix has joined. 17:59:48 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:33:28 -!- GregorR[zzz] has changed nick to GregorR. 19:45:01 -!- pgimeno has quit ("Closing"). 20:24:38 -!- lindi- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:29:37 -!- calamari has joined. 20:30:31 hi 21:14:39 there.. all the easy year adds are done.. the rest will need additional research (specs, file dates, etc) 21:15:42 good work calamari! 21:18:15 thanks.. it's kinda fun researching the history of these :) 21:31:39 -!- graue has joined. 21:31:41 hello esolangers 21:32:26 at one time, I was thinking about making a language in which programs would look like software licenses, like, EULAs and the GPL and such 21:33:02 I eventually abandoned the idea, but here are a few "programs" I wrote while imagining how the language might work: http://infestationgardens.net/files/hello.license http://infestationgardens.net/files/beer.license 21:35:45 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User_talk:Calamari 21:36:24 now I can work on the history project without carrying scraps of paper around :) 21:37:28 I'm pretty sure Aheui was invented in 2005 21:37:44 try grepping the #esoteric logs for the first mention of it 21:38:02 graue: good idea.. I hadn't thought of using the logs.. thanks 21:38:25 the Fm family of languages aren't really esoteric programming languages, but they were written up in 2005 by that r.e.s. guy, I think 21:38:43 LNUSP was almost certainly invented in 2003 around the same time as PATH and SNUSP 21:39:14 graue: I wasn't sure what to do with Fm as the category was only for languages 21:39:25 Sceql is definitely from 2005; I discussed it on the wiki when I first invented it 21:39:32 Qdeql is also from 2005 21:39:46 as is Sortle 21:39:56 and Subskin 21:41:10 Cvlemar and Network Headache are probably 2005; I doubt the author had invented them long before adding them to the wiki 21:41:52 GraNoLa/M was a submission to the second Essies, so it dates to 2002 21:41:57 graue: your license language reminds me of another esolang, but I can't quite put a finger on it :) I like it 21:42:46 :) 21:42:53 Shakespeare, possibly? 21:43:03 not sure.. the other lang used similar english-style declarations 21:44:24 nope, not shakespeake.. 21:45:10 aha 21:45:13 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Chef 21:46:47 ah, chef 21:47:54 i invented subskin in 2005 21:48:40 g'night 21:48:58 cya jix, tyhanks 21:49:06 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:51:12 I guess you didn't notice me saying I invented Sortle, Qdeql, and Sceql in 2005? 21:52:22 -!- graue has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:52:38 graue: yes I did.. thanks.. still workin on em 21:54:10 graue: I like your license lang :) 21:58:10 wow. 2005 has a LOT of languages compared to the others... 21:58:25 I suspect the creation of the wiki has a big part in that 22:00:34 -!- Keymaker has joined. 22:01:28 hi keymaker 22:01:32 hi 22:01:52 did you create any of these langs? http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User_talk:Calamari 22:01:57 -!- Sgep has joined. 22:02:31 I remember Homespring was announced on the mailing list a while back. I think I can dig it up 22:02:36 not as far as i know :) 22:02:58 kipple: cool, thanks 22:03:14 it was posted 15.04.2003 22:05:06 tada! :) 22:06:08 I know there are some langs form the mailing list that aren't on the wiki.. I remembered Spaz and added it yesterday 22:15:29 graue: the license langauge idea looks nice 22:21:13 hmm. the Sorted! home page says it won the eso awards in 2000, but the wiki says it was in 2001, and that that was the FIRST eso awards... 22:21:49 i guess the page maker has made a mistake, then 22:22:14 the files in the distribution are dated december 2000 22:22:23 kipple: yeah.. the wiki page seems to conflict.. I messed with it but probably not for the best 22:22:31 so, it is correct that the eso awards started in 2001? 22:22:35 nope 22:22:39 they started in 2000 22:22:54 the deadline just kept getting pushed back until they became the 2001 22:23:03 aha 22:23:15 though I think sorted! should be dated to 2000 22:23:20 can you give a url for the file date? 22:23:34 http://p-nand-q.com/humor/programming_languages/sorted_/sorted.tar.bz2 22:23:36 thanks' 22:23:57 anyway, that dates Shakespeare to 2001 22:24:18 it does? 22:24:45 the shakespeare spec mentions sorted as a reference, and that it was created in february 22:24:56 the spec was last updated in 2001 22:25:37 kipple: feel free to edit the wiki.. I don't want to take credit for your research and it takes longer to add quotes from you, etc :) 22:25:46 I've done it already 22:25:48 thanks 22:26:42 editing Sorted!... 22:35:52 added 2000 to TMMLPTEALFJwhatever 22:39:03 thanks.. also thanks for adding a reason.. I've been trying to do that also 22:39:18 yeah, I learned that from you :) 22:41:19 enema: 2002 (interp date) 22:42:17 java2k: 2000 (who would've guessed?) - original impl. date 22:42:30 heheh 22:43:18 :) 22:43:46 ah, the 2k boom 22:43:56 everything was 2k that year 22:44:09 flip 2001 (java impl) 22:45:22 smith#: 2000 (windows impl) 22:52:13 redgreen 1999 chris's old page 22:54:29 shelta 1999 chris's old page 23:05:35 I love the descriptions made for these old languages: "ILLGOL in short: Take three parts Perl, two parts Basic, two parts Fortran. Marinate for six hours in Budweiser and canola oil. Boil until pulped and serve with a side of Intercal." 23:08:13 heh 23:11:20 -!- ZeroOne_ has changed nick to ZeroOne. 23:32:03 damn, Chris has made a lot of languages :D 23:32:24 it's almost like we should have a separate Chris Pressey category for languages ...... 23:32:47 yeah :) 23:33:04 I've been adding stubs for some that were missing 23:33:16 yeah, I saw that. 23:33:26 does this seem like a joke or a real language: http://web.archive.org/web/20030223112205/www.catseye.mb.ca/esoteric/turkeyb/index.html 23:34:16 some of the descriptions are so elaborate it makes it seem like a joke (because of the Intercal-style humor).. but it could still be a real lang 23:34:16 well it's definately a joke (but that doesn't necessarily prevent it from being a real language) 23:34:23 yeah 23:35:04 I'll call it lang until Chris or someone involved in it steps forward 23:40:20 well, I think that's it for http://web.archive.org/web/20030211031900/http://www.catseye.mb.ca/lala/index.html 23:42:06 nite.. i'm asleep already 23:42:11 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 2005-11-19: 00:08:03 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:27:38 does Haifu in 2005 seem right ? 00:43:27 no, but I could be wrong... 00:47:02 it was added to the language list in wikipedia in sept. 2003 00:47:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_esoteric_programming_languages&oldid=1406250 00:47:32 ok 00:47:54 I suspect it is from 2000-2001 as most of DMM's languages 00:48:30 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server"). 00:49:05 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:49:07 I sent an email to David Morgan-Mar as I noticed several langs by him I didn't have dates for 00:49:22 yeah, that's probably the best way to do it :) 00:49:27 so hopefully I'll be able to get better dates for his langs 00:49:37 :) 03:21:55 -!- sekhmet has quit ("omg it's lvm2!"). 03:45:46 Night all 03:45:54 -!- Sgep has quit. 04:18:43 -!- CXI has quit ("If you're reading this, it's probably xchat's fault."). 04:19:16 -!- CXI has joined. 04:52:29 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:09:36 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 06:32:59 -!- sekhmet has joined. 07:09:44 -!- kipple has joined. 07:20:17 -!- cmeme has quit (Network is unreachable). 07:22:07 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:22:11 -!- Arrogant has joined. 07:33:53 -!- sekhmet has quit ("leaving"). 07:47:19 -!- sekhmet has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:16:15 -!- calamari has joined. 08:33:35 uncovered a lang from the sange.fi mailing list: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Dumbf%2Ack 08:41:55 nice work detective :) 08:52:59 seems that I had just forgotten about it... because I later post my approval of it hehe 08:54:53 well there are so many bf-clones. can't expect to remember them all 08:59:11 new lang http://web.archive.org/web/20011107102634/http://www.guldheden.com/~sandin/when/When.txt 08:59:31 err I mean new in 2001 ;) 09:07:51 -!- Keymaker has joined. 09:14:31 re Keymaker 09:14:53 hello 09:15:11 -!- Arrogant has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 09:19:31 -!- Arrogant has joined. 09:31:36 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 09:46:02 -!- Arrogant has quit ("I AM QUIT HAVE A NICE DAY"). 09:49:47 -!- jix has joined. 10:20:04 -!- J|x has joined. 10:22:53 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 10:22:55 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 11:18:58 wow.. 4am and I'm still not done with 2001.. oh well :) 11:19:09 bbl 11:19:13 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 11:46:18 i'm working on bfgentext again 11:47:52 i need to do something until my gp2x arrives (it's on the way from korea to UK atm... UK to germany is the next stage. Somewhere in germany to me is the last stage) 12:56:22 my sort is 2 bytes longer than the shortest i found :( 13:03:36 my version: >>,[[-[->>+<<]+>>]<+<[-<<]>>,]+[>[-<.>]<[->>+<<]>>+] (using byte counting) 13:03:55 Daniel B Cristofani's version: >>,[>>,]<<[[-<+<]>[>[>>]<[.[-]<[[>>+<<-]<]>>]>]<<] 14:00:52 -!- lindi- has joined. 17:04:45 -!- shmeebegek has joined. 17:05:05 hello 17:06:19 -!- sekhmet has quit ("memtest!"). 17:15:24 -!- Sgep has joined. 17:40:11 -!- shmeebegek has quit (" Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-"). 17:42:08 -!- Sgeper has joined. 17:47:53 -!- nooga has joined. 17:47:55 hi 17:48:17 who knows something about graphs? 17:56:23 hmm 18:25:10 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:34:58 bfgentext is about getting usable 18:38:15 bbl 19:18:45 -!- calamari has joined. 19:31:13 moin calamari 19:44:02 hi jix 19:52:32 my first lhs is done 90% 19:56:19 cool 19:56:37 lisp is really a cool language 19:56:56 somewhat esoteric but fast and has really cool features 19:57:02 Scheme is nice too. 19:57:22 yeah but i need speed and there are better lisp implementations for osx 20:04:01 is it possible to create a link to a category in an article, without becoming that category? 20:04:30 I could copy the entire url but that seems bad 20:04:55 -!- Keymaker has joined. 20:05:19 hi Keymaker 20:05:26 hello 20:06:09 Keymaker: i'm modifying my bfgentext to support wrapping and unwrapping code (but only 8-bit because non 8bit is stupid for text output) 20:06:27 ok 20:06:34 btw, what is lhs 20:06:36 `? 20:06:40 left hand side... 20:06:50 i didn't get it :) 20:06:53 not important unless you know how the program generates the bf code 20:07:04 ok 20:07:15 it does it in 2 passes.. one is the lhs the other one is the rhs 20:07:43 bfgentext? 20:07:57 my bf output text generator 20:08:07 like textgen.java but in lisp and a bit more flexible 20:08:15 yes, but you're talking about bfgentext, right? 20:08:23 yes 20:08:26 ok :) 20:08:29 i was a bit confused 20:11:33 calamari: does textgen.java use wrapping or nonwrapping bf? 20:11:54 non-wrapping 20:12:12 ah 20:12:40 i first wrote wrapping code only but it was only a little change to allow wrapping in the written part too 20:13:24 to do wrapping I'd need a way to compute the result of a wrap very quickly 20:13:35 &0xFF 20:13:53 I think at one time I'd figured it out, but then I've forgotten 20:15:25 jix: for example ---[>----<+]> 20:15:43 -3 -4 1 20:16:13 that (3*-4)&0xFF 20:16:42 right 20:16:45 bbl 20:18:28 ---[>+<-------]> = 219 20:19:51 ahh this is better.. no 1: ----[>---<--]>++ = 136 20:24:48 I believe the equation is 254 mod x = 252 20:30:47 I know of no O(n) solution to that.. there are algorithms to find it but they take several steps or there may not be a solution 20:30:57 err I meant O(1) 20:31:15 anyhow.. :) 22:10:10 -!- graue has joined. 22:10:21 -!- graue has quit (Client Quit). 22:19:53 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 22:22:55 calamari: if you want tables for set_to_x[sub_y>add_z<] you could take a look at my bf2a.rb look up tables 22:24:45 calamari: is your textgen.java still under 'active' development? 22:30:53 -!- Taliesin41 has joined. 22:31:05 -!- Taliesin41 has changed nick to KevinN. 22:31:05 nope 22:31:26 but it is gpl, so you may change it however you like 22:33:59 hehe no my bfgentext isn't for from complete... i was just interested whether you are still trying to improve it or not 22:40:38 probably not.. but who knows.. someday it may become very interesting to me again.. can't predict these things :) 22:51:04 calamari, you're a pro, aren't you? 23:11:13 KevinN: a pro? 23:11:35 a professional... 23:12:19 a professional what? 23:13:10 a pro in matters of language-design and stuff... 23:19:27 I think that every turing-complete language can be converted into a turing-tarpit consisting of only 2 operators... 23:37:22 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:37:56 KevinN: I think I'm far from being a pro.. but thank you for the compliment :) 23:38:12 you're welcome... 23:38:19 oehm... well... 23:39:02 to come to the interesting part: I think the way I've found does work for every language there is so far... 23:39:31 what have you come up with? 23:41:45 I call it IM (or: "In-Memory")... 23:41:56 you have to think of it as a kind of brainfuck... 23:42:10 however, in a special sense of way... 23:42:31 you take language A that allows N different characters as input... 23:43:16 your source is written on a tape... its pointer can only be moved to the right and the value of the current cell can only be incremented by one... 23:43:53 the minimum value of a cell can be zero (no character) and the maximum value can be N 23:44:11 now you write the whole source onto the tape... 23:44:50 when you're tape-writing-source (in the so-called IM-language) comes to its end, the source that was written ONTO the tape is executed... 23:45:45 to make it simple: you write for example C - code onto the tape and that C - code is executed after writing the code onto the tape... 23:47:29 if the original source is executed, is'not more than 2 operators? 23:48:54 well... I think operator is the wrong word... operand should be more correct... 23:49:12 for example I could make a language that you just said B for the "code", but then fed a bf program to standard input.. now all B programs are alike and one characters but the language is really defined by the interpreter of B 23:49:39 it consists of the > - operand (move right) and the + - operand (increment) 23:49:55 ok 23:50:16 loops? 23:50:30 everything is done in-memory... ;) 23:50:45 so you need some kind of second interpreter or so... 23:51:11 right, but having a second interpreter (IMO) means that whatever the 2nd interpreter does added to the operators 23:51:13 one that understands the IM-source (>+++++>+++>+++++ etc.) and one that understands that source that's written on the tape... 23:51:55 naaah... don't think so... 23:51:57 Why not describe the source in terms of 0 and 1, it is the same :) 23:52:20 you see... that's the basis... 23:52:22 then you have binary, which is how it is represented 23:52:33 (even normally) 23:52:39 yes... in some way or another... 23:52:57 now the real genetic algorithm... 23:55:35 KevinN: I think a lang can be devised with 3 operators that perform the essentials (iteration, infinite memory, etc), but with two I think it is impossible without enforcing some outside design on the two.. for example with iota and jot, they are decoded according to lambda calculus, so that a single 0 or 1 does not perform a single task, it does several depending on context. 23:56:36 with bitchange or bf, each instruction performs a well defined task that does not change function depending on positioning, only on state 23:57:22 * GregorR is shocked as calamari bursts into flames! 23:57:42 GregorR: I did?! :) 23:57:45 lol 23:57:50 * GregorR enjoys abusing /me :P 23:58:02 * jix doesn't 23:58:07 * calamari tries to parse that sentence 23:58:24 Anybody want to chat on DirectNet 8-D 23:58:41 8-D being a punctuation mark with roughly the same meaning as '?' 2005-11-20: 00:00:06 yeah, that 8th dimension is a real mystery 00:02:27 GregorR: checking command line arguments of a osx.app is somewhat stupid 00:02:48 mac os x passes -psn something to all double clicked apps... directnet tries to parse that... 00:03:30 DAMN YOU MAC OS X!!! 00:03:31 :P 00:03:45 how does directnet work? 00:03:58 It's a mesh network. 00:04:06 You connect to some other DN user ... 00:04:10 Then you're on ... THE MESH 00:04:18 ok i want to connect to someone 00:04:30 gpg username? 00:04:36 d/l complete.. now to compiel 00:04:55 jix: If you don't have GPG, don't put in a GPG username ;) 00:05:13 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:37:39 -!- sekhmet has joined. 00:43:33 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:51:14 -!- graue has joined. 00:54:01 -!- Sgeper has quit. 00:54:17 -!- Sgep has quit (Success). 00:57:57 -!- Sgep has joined. 01:04:40 hello 01:12:34 moin sekhmet, puzzlet, graue, Sgep 01:12:41 hi jix 01:12:56 moin 01:14:19 puzzlet: do you know the gp2x? 01:14:51 heard of. that's all 01:15:33 I've heard of it, but I'm skeptical of whether it will be as good as rumored 01:16:06 i can't wait for my gp2x to arrive 01:16:24 you'll have to inform me of whether it is actually good, since, if so, I might obtain one 01:21:08 they don't multitask, do they? 01:21:27 it runs linux so multitasking is no problem 01:21:38 but they don't multitask the built in apps 01:21:48 and there can be only one sdl screen 01:22:11 so only one app can communicate with the user 01:22:40 is SDL the only way to make games on it? 01:22:44 no 01:22:49 oh, that's good 01:23:12 using linux sdl is the only way to get a screen buffer (sdl_surface is just a image buffer) 01:23:38 so, written any subskin programs lately? 01:23:45 using HH (hardcore homebrew firmware (under development not yet released not made by gph)) it's possible to talk with the hardware directly 01:23:55 that will be neat 01:23:56 graue: hmm i wrote a quine... 01:24:02 a new one? 01:24:09 hmm 01:24:25 i had some different versions 01:24:31 not quine1.subskin dated september 12th? 01:25:13 i have quin2.subskin 01:25:33 dated september 12th 01:25:52 you gave me a quine2.subskin that day and told me if I added it to the file archive I should call it quine1.subskin, because the 2 was just due to your bootstrapping process, or something like that 01:25:54 and quine1.subskin is dated september 11th here 01:26:06 yes i know the 2 was bootstrapping 01:26:13 but the 2 i have here is different from the online version 01:26:17 ah 01:26:29 i did some cleanup 01:27:00 http://rafb.net/paste/results/4NW7wq58.txt 01:29:07 i have a undocumentated subskin-assembler-hack and 2 programs written using it (quine and 99bob) should they be in the archive too? 01:36:57 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server"). 01:40:24 -!- cmeme has joined. 01:42:11 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 02:01:24 jix: sure 02:02:36 !bf8 +++++++++++++++++++++[->+++>-------<<]>+++++++++.>--------.+++++++..+++.>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.<<<++++++++++. 02:02:50 QUE?! 02:02:53 Hello World! 02:04:30 jix: does the subskin-assembler-hack quine print out its source code in the assembler language, or in subskin? 02:05:04 in subskin 02:05:12 i used it to generate quine1.subskin and quine2.subskin 02:05:16 oh 02:05:43 it allows one to not readjust every adress if the code moves by 1 byte 02:06:05 that sounds useful 02:16:29 -!- cmeme has joined. 02:29:15 so are you going to post this assembler hack somewhere somehow? 02:30:35 oh yes 02:30:43 hmm can i dcc you? 02:33:46 no 02:34:27 you can privately message me a password for svn access to the file archive, if you wish 02:37:00 i don't know svn commands 02:37:42 i'm going to upload it tomorrow 02:37:45 gn 02:37:54 8 02:37:57 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 02:39:43 -!- KevinN has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:39:59 Fine, everybody just leave :'( 02:55:57 hmm? 03:25:02 * Sgep goes to attempt to write a python implementation of something 03:30:58 * Sgep works on implementing Foobar and Foobaz and Barbaz, oh my! 03:31:20 heh, that's a funny language 03:31:25 at least the name is 03:35:46 Monty Python's Flying Whitespace! 03:35:53 Hmm? 03:36:08 Juuuust a subtle mockery of Python's indentation significance. 03:36:51 Hardest part of processing that language is related to my lack of string-handling skills... 03:37:06 *The Foobar one 03:40:07 So far, the interpreter does absolutely NO checking to see if it makes sense 03:42:22 -!- puzzlet has quit (Client Quit). 03:42:57 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:47:08 repuzz 03:49:55 yay 03:51:54 So far, my interpreter is going to allow the user to get away with using , instead of " and " and ", oh my" 03:51:59 :-/ 03:54:07 why don't you have yacc create a parser for you? 03:54:12 yacc? 03:54:20 Because I have no clue what yacc is 03:54:52 Ow 03:55:32 it's a UNIX program that generates parsers 03:55:36 type 'man yacc' 03:56:50 Need documentation 03:57:39 Please tell me that Python can use the generated parser easily 03:58:04 I guess it can't 04:01:46 * Sgep installs pyparsing 04:06:48 -!- graue has quit ("Leaving"). 04:39:06 * Sgep is almost done 04:40:09 -!- mad has joined. 04:40:12 hey 04:41:14 hi mad 04:41:20 I think I finished it 04:47:16 -!- mad has changed nick to Madbrain. 04:51:53 I wonder how a script designed for writing 2d video games could be like 04:53:40 These things are really light on data storage requirements 04:53:57 But are heavier on behaviour, interactions, collisions 05:01:58 * Sgep wrote an implementation of http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Foobar_and_Foobaz_and_Barbaz,_oh_my! 05:02:22 doesn't seem very complicated 05:03:14 But it wasn't implemented 05:03:27 * Sgep needed an easy language to implement 05:04:19 too bad it's not turing complete 05:05:11 * Sgep just notices 05:05:58 I've yet to implement my lastest lang... 05:06:45 But it's complicated stuff to implement 05:07:45 * Sgep had difficulty even implementing what he did implement 05:08:54 It involves some very dynamic memory stuff, which I have to learn to do properly in C++ or switch to a more appropriate language... perhaps java 05:09:45 And crazy recursion optimisation so the stack doesn't explode 05:11:48 -!- Sgep has quit. 05:39:10 -!- Madbrain has quit ("Christians believe Jesus can save your soul; atheists believe Hungry Man TV dinners are a quick and easy dinner solution for ). 06:22:03 http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/GregorRichards/Cruising.jpg 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:10:19 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 10:59:42 -!- jix has joined. 11:38:14 -!- ZeroOne has changed nick to Zero0ne. 11:38:20 -!- Zero0ne has changed nick to ZeroOne. 12:25:41 -!- marcan has quit ("Lost terminal"). 12:46:09 -!- Milan30 has joined. 12:46:42 -!- Milan30 has left (?). 14:52:13 -!- kipple has joined. 16:57:01 -!- Sgep has joined. 17:02:53 sgep: is you foobar and barbaz implementation available anywhere? 17:03:08 * Sgep will post it on a pastebin service now 17:04:37 The horrible code is here: 17:04:42 http://rafb.net/paste/results/jFdGal77.html 17:04:56 First it asks for filename of the program, then it executes it 17:05:05 Raises IndexError when program is done 17:05:22 And uses the pyparsing module 17:05:53 Not really well tested 17:06:03 And I accidentally pasted it as formatted as C++ 17:07:21 ok. thanks :) 17:07:31 yw 17:07:50 And it could be horribly incorrect... 17:10:45 * kipple changes foobar and foobaz... to implemented 17:12:17 There should really be a poorly implemented category 17:12:22 haha 17:12:28 is it so bad? 19:18:08 -!- heatsink has joined. 19:32:42 -!- ChanServ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:51:01 -!- ChanServ has joined. 19:51:01 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 20:19:06 Is the sample program for switching at http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Foobar_and_Foobaz_and_Barbaz,_oh_my! correct? 20:19:48 My interpreter (which is very buggy) doesn't like it, but the program there presumably wasn't tested either... 20:38:31 Yay! 20:38:39 I fixed my interpreter to work with boygirl.omy 20:38:59 Except that newlines and comments need to be stripped out 20:44:50 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:Sgeo/ffbimp 20:45:16 *yawn* 20:45:33 hmm? 20:45:46 I'm not yawning at your convo. 20:45:49 Just my morning tiredness. 21:15:23 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:56:46 brb 23:13:00 -!- pgimeno has joined. 23:27:26 hi pgimeno 23:27:53 hi 23:40:39 -!- calamari has joined. 23:42:37 hi 23:43:20 ¡Hola señor! 23:50:32 hi Gregor 2005-11-21: 00:03:40 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 00:07:29 *yawn* 00:35:41 dang, another wiki controversy :( 00:37:10 * kipple wishes graue would be a bit gentler to people... 00:37:39 Where's this controversy? 00:37:45 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Talk:Dumbf*ck 00:40:06 * GregorR takes nine steps away from that conversation. 00:40:38 * kipple worries that we'll get another fragmentation... 00:42:26 fragmentation? 00:42:31 of the wiki 02:00:31 sorry to cause a dispute.. I was just getting tired of the abuse and spoke out in a moment of frustration 02:07:45 Totally legitimately. 02:09:26 haha 02:09:29 "quit being a jerk" 02:09:32 nice 02:09:37 well, just in case there is any doubt.. I won't be tryign to fragment the wiki or anything of the sort :) 02:18:47 MUTINY!!!!!!!!!!!! 02:18:58 Nah, graue offered to write a curses UI for DirectNet :P 02:24:48 DirectNet? 02:28:44 Ow :( 02:28:46 :P 02:28:49 http://directnet.sourceforge.net/ 02:38:04 bah.. I wanted to say how cool it was that it compiled without any warnings, but it snuck a couple in :( 02:38:16 What did? 02:38:19 DN? 02:38:23 yeah 02:38:26 Piffle. 02:38:39 Are they not in src/enc-cyfer/cyfer or src/enc-cyfer/gmp ? 02:38:43 get_d_2exp.c: In function `__gmpz_get_d_2exp': 02:38:43 get_d_2exp.c:60: warning: matching constraint does not allow a register 02:38:43 get_d_2exp.c:60: warning: matching constraint does not allow a register 02:38:50 Cool, that's not my code ;) 02:38:56 hehehe 02:39:05 congrats then! :) 02:39:45 Incidentally, I'm releasing 1.0.0rc2 as we speak :P 02:40:08 lol, you did that to me the last time I compiled it 02:40:18 I'm very good at that ;) 02:40:25 It's just a few bugfixes of course. 02:40:40 Almost exclusively problems on OpenBSD and Mac OS X. 02:40:43 So *shrugs* 02:41:01 * calamari checks the file to see what the warning means 02:42:23 cool.. embedded assembly code 02:42:29 Not mine ;) 02:42:33 It's GMP 02:42:52 asm ("" : "=m" (res) : "0" (res)); 02:43:00 lol 02:43:02 That's a bit odd. 02:43:06 seems like an esolang 02:43:23 XD 02:57:06 does directnet use the same port for outgoing and incoming connections? 02:57:28 I can't seem to connect and I'm wondering if I need to open a port on my router 03:03:46 Oh, hi :P 03:03:52 If you wanted to connect to yourself, then yes, you would. 03:04:00 But you don't /need/ to to be on the DN network. 03:10:08 Err 03:13:35 * calamari left out a "to" when reading that and got slightly confused.. :) 03:15:44 * calamari wonders if having a list of active nicks and ip's goes against the spirit of directnet 03:16:16 Certainly not if they're on different IPs. 03:16:27 Err, wait. 03:16:32 * GregorR misinterpreted that sentence. 03:16:44 The "route list" is essentially that. 03:17:33 I guess what I mean is that on irc I can join a channel and find people, so I don't have to search.. but I wouldn't know how to discover people on dn 03:17:51 /Oh/ 03:18:12 Yeah, that's sort of an issue :P 03:18:34 It's not against the "spirit" of DN, but it's against the technology of serverless networks ;) 03:20:08 * calamari tries to think of how a chat room would work on p2p 03:20:19 There are chatrooms on DN. 03:20:25 But you have to have a route to one person in the chat room. 03:21:01 (Meaning, amongst other things, that there can be two chatrooms with the same name) 03:22:29 that's sick. 03:22:57 It's a problem :P 03:23:08 Still trying to work out the technoissues. 03:38:57 -!- calamari has quit (Connection timed out). 03:39:31 -!- calamari has joined. 03:54:33 bbl 03:54:37 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 04:32:09 -!- calamari has joined. 04:32:16 re's 04:34:11 'lo 04:34:11 re calamari 05:11:23 Night all. 05:11:34 * Sgep forces himself to turn off the computer 05:12:31 -!- Sgep has quit. 05:52:33 -!- puzzlet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:52:42 -!- tokigun has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:52:42 -!- lindi- has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:52:43 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:53:27 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:53:27 -!- lindi- has joined. 05:53:27 -!- tokigun has joined. 05:53:27 -!- fizzie has joined. 06:07:05 -!- Arrogant has joined. 06:09:08 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:44:51 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:24:39 Nothing makes you feel more stupid than digging through code for twenty minutes trying to find a bug, only to discover that you forgot to NULL-terminate a string. 07:49:23 -!- lirthy has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:27:11 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:29:47 -!- GregorR has joined. 08:39:23 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving"). 09:54:06 -!- mtve2 has changed nick to mtve. 12:23:13 -!- CXII has joined. 12:28:02 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:28:22 -!- CXII has changed nick to CXI. 12:51:27 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:03:22 -!- J|x has joined. 13:30:28 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 14:27:14 -!- kipple has joined. 17:38:36 GOOGLE IS DOWN (well i found one google server that responses but all google groups and gmail servers are down) 17:44:12 jix: are you sure it's just google? 17:44:26 yes 17:44:34 i'm reading http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1813828,00.asp atm 17:44:37 but all other websites work 17:44:55 jix: i'm seeing http://iki.fi/lindi/google_last_10800.png 17:45:18 jix: i have problems with e.g. en.wikipedia.org too 17:45:40 wikipedia is faster than normal here 17:45:50 but i can't read google groups 17:46:02 and some people can't read mails using gmail... 17:46:27 I'm reading mails in gmail.com. i have no problem. lucky :p 17:46:58 dns problems are often provider local .. but there seems to be many dns problems with many providers only affecting google 17:47:00 --- www.eweek.com ping statistics --- 17:47:00 21 packets transmitted, 10 received, 52% loss, time 22174ms 17:47:01 rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 143.979/165.792/183.558/11.645 ms 17:47:31 http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1813828,00.asp works google doesn't work.. everything except google works 17:48:44 jix: i can read that if i ssh to work first ;) 17:48:59 google is back here 20:25:32 -!- Sgep has joined. 21:41:25 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:08:46 -!- calamari has joined. 22:08:57 hi 22:09:02 ho 22:12:34 ha 22:12:36 -!- Sgep has quit. 22:15:56 afk to bake a birthday cake :D 22:37:00 -!- Sgep has joined. 23:00:56 -!- Sgep has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:07:35 -!- Sgep has joined. 23:15:52 -!- ihope has joined. 23:16:59 hi ihope 23:17:02 Hello 23:17:25 Did you see that I implemented your Foobar and Foobaz and Barbaz, oh my! language? 23:17:50 Yep. 23:18:02 I haven't had the chance to test it yet, though. 23:18:38 It currently crashes after hitting a blank line or a comment :-( 23:22:15 Well, the 99 bottles of beer program probably doesn't need any of those, since it'll pretty much contain the whole song, one line per character. 23:22:51 There's a 99 bottles of beer program? 23:22:58 At least I think that's what it'll do. Theoretically, it could be packed into less than 12000 lines, but I'm not sure how to do that. 23:23:52 And I'm working on the beer program. Since this computer somehow got restarted, I'll start over. 23:24:45 All I need is a simple parser, to turn each raw character into "[ASCII code] and [ASCII code] and [ASCII code], oh my.\n". 23:31:00 Shouldn't just the two on the left be the same 23:31:06 And the third 0? 23:32:21 All those [ASCII code]s are the same. 23:32:39 hmm? 23:33:03 An exclamation point would translate to "33 and 33 and 33, oh my.", for example. 23:33:30 Why the third 33? 23:33:56 No reason, really. It could be 32 or 1 or 0. 23:34:17 * Sgep decides to make something that outputs: 23:34:24 [ASCII code] and 255 and 0, oh my.\n 23:35:06 fis@colin:~$ echo foo | perl -ne 'print ord($_), " and 255 and 0, oh my.\n" foreach split //;' 23:35:10 102 and 255 and 0, oh my. 23:35:12 111 and 255 and 0, oh my. 23:35:15 111 and 255 and 0, oh my. 23:35:17 10 and 255 and 0, oh my. 23:36:46 http://rafb.net/paste/results/nvPFP965.html 23:37:09 Bleh. Accidentally pasted as C++ 23:37:26 Mine has less characters. :p 23:37:36 :-) 23:39:40 Hmm... foobar x = [ show (ord a) : " and 255 and 0, oh my.\n" | a <- x ] 23:44:25 ~.25*".ym ho ,0 dna 552 dna">:#,_ 23:45:12 -!- marcan has joined. 23:45:18 Ook. 23:48:53 foobar x = concat [ reverse ("\n.ym ho ,0 dna 552 dna " ++ [show (ord a)]) | a <- x ] 23:49:42 http://rafb.net/paste/results/akEyDY56.html 23:49:45 There's not much point reversing the string if you're not writing befunge. Besides, wouldn't that reverse the input'd character? 23:50:06 My script leaves two blank lines at the end 23:50:32 Which would need to be stripped out before it works with my implementation :-/ 23:51:01 fizzie: yes. 23:51:56 Sgep; Well, my befunge version doesn't understand EOF so if you pipe input to it, you'll end up with an infinite amount of "-1 and 255 and 0, oh my."s. Compared to that, two blank lines shouldn't seem all that bad, right? 23:52:02 foobar x = concat [ reverse ("\n.ym ho ,0 dna 553 dna " ++ [reverse (show (ord a))]) | a <- x ] 23:53:51 compose x y z = y (x z) 23:53:56 compose foobar foobar 23:54:07 ~:1+!#@_.25*".ym ho ,0 dna 552 dna">:#,_ 23:54:42 Befunge oneliners are silly, they should really be small rectangular blocks of code. 23:58:30 mesh x y = concat [ [a,b] | (a,b) <- zip x y ] 23:59:12 mesh (x:xs) y = x : (concat [ [a,b] | (a,b) <- zip y x ]) 2005-11-22: 00:01:53 Oh, just realized that a more perly solution would've been: 00:01:56 perl -ne 'print "$_ and 255 and 0, oh my.\n" foreach unpack "C*", $_' 00:02:26 That's perl, eh? 00:02:37 Witness the firepower of this fully-armed and operational perl station. 00:03:04 * ihope left Hugs downstairs 00:05:10 bbl.. study time 00:05:11 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 00:12:56 Which is better: taking x and returning its head or taking (x:xs) and returning x? 00:14:40 PROGRAM TMP 00:14:40 CHARACTER*80 CIN 00:14:40 42 READ(UNIT=*,FMT=*,END=43) CIN 00:14:40 DO 44, I = 0, 79 00:14:40 IF(ICHAR(CIN(I+1:I+1)).NE.32) THEN 00:14:43 WRITE(UNIT=*,FMT=*) ICHAR(CIN(I+1:I+1)), ' AND 255 AND 0 OH 00:14:45 *MY.' 00:14:48 END IF 00:14:50 44 CONTINUE 00:14:53 GOTO 42 00:14:55 43 END 00:15:01 (Couldn't help myself.) 00:15:12 Wow. What was that written in? 00:15:17 Fortran. 00:15:36 Eek. 00:15:37 I should really have used some more esoteric fortranisms, like a computed goto or something. 00:20:28 Well, I'm writing one in Haskell... 00:27:45 mesh x y = concat [ [a,b] | (a,b) <- zip x y ] 00:27:46 mesh (x:xs) y = x : (concat [ [a,b] | (a,b) <- zip y x ]) 00:27:48 firstfew 0 _ = [] 00:27:50 firstfew 1 (x:xs) = x 00:27:52 firstfew x (y:ys) = y : (firstfew x-1 ys) 00:27:53 lastfew 0 _ = [] 00:27:57 lastfew 1 x = last x 00:27:59 lastfew x (y:ys) | length ys == x = ys 00:28:02 | length ys > x = lastfew x ys 00:28:03 scramble [x] = [x] 00:28:05 scramble [x,y] = [x,y] 00:28:06 scramble x | even (length x) = mesh (scramble firstfew (length x / 2) x) (scramble lastfew (length x / 2) x) 00:28:08 foobar x = concat [ show (ord a) : scramble " 5dmdaha2\n0 o y n n5," | a <- x ] 00:28:27 ...With that : replaced with a ++. 00:28:31 Are you _sure_ that's the simplest possible solution? :p 00:28:54 * Sgep gets dizzy 00:28:56 Here's yet another: 00:28:58 foo([X|_], Y) :- int_to_atom(X, X2), atom_concat(X2, ' and 255 and 0, oh my.', Y). 00:29:02 foo([_|Rest], Y) :- foo(Rest, Y). 00:29:03 ?- foo("foo.", Y). 00:29:03 Y = '102 and 255 and 0, oh my.' ; 00:29:03 Y = '111 and 255 and 0, oh my.' ; 00:29:03 Y = '111 and 255 and 0, oh my.' ; 00:29:06 Y = '46 and 255 and 0, oh my.' ; 00:29:08 No 00:29:22 Can you write a shorter one that uses the string " 5dmdaha2\n0 o y n n5," to make the thinger? 00:29:48 hmm? 00:30:01 What are we trying to do? 00:30:22 Write something that turns a string into a Foobar program that outputs it. 00:30:55 Are we trying to do that in as many languages as possible? 00:31:15 And also in as senseless ways as possible, it seems. 00:31:26 Yep. 00:31:43 Are these programs able to process multi-line strings? 00:32:11 A string is a string is a string, to these ones. 00:32:25 Of course, they have to be in ASCII. 00:32:34 And my fortran implementation does not support space characters. :p 00:32:58 That's FORTRAN for you. 00:33:19 (Fortran's "READ" sets the un-assigned characters to spaces, and does not return the amount of characters assigned to.) 00:34:01 Could someone make a program that does this by bruteforcing an md5 hash? 00:36:30 There's that md5 collision source, but iirc it can only mangle two files to collide, not specify what the resultant hash value is. 00:40:19 Which one? 00:40:53 * Sgep needs to leave in 5min 00:41:46 The one that was slashdotted few days ago. 00:41:58 And probably all based on that same paper. 00:42:45 http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/15/2037232&from=rss? 00:45:03 Yes. 00:45:37 Bye all... 00:45:44 -!- Sgep has quit. 00:59:04 any guitar players? 01:03:58 Just this one, then I'll stop writing these: 01:04:01 fis@colin:~/prog/tmp/ps$ gs tmp.ps 01:04:01 ESP Ghostscript 815.00 (2005-08-11) 01:04:01 Copyright (C) 2004 artofcode LLC, Benicia, CA. All rights reserved. 01:04:01 This software comes with NO WARRANTY: see the file PUBLIC for details. 01:04:03 foo. 01:04:06 102 and 255 and 0, oh my. 01:04:08 111 and 255 and 0, oh my. 01:04:11 111 and 255 and 0, oh my. 01:04:13 46 and 255 and 0, oh my. 01:04:16 10 and 255 and 0, oh my. 01:04:25 { (%stdin) (r) file read { 10 string cvs print ( and 255 and 0, oh my.\n) print } { exit } ifelse } loop 01:19:07 Is there any Haskell builtin to test whether a list contains a specified value? 01:44:51 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:53:24 Hmm... aleph-one is not a prime number, as it is higher than the highest prime number, but is aleph-null a prime number? 01:56:24 I guess not, as the highest prime number, squared, is a composite number, which means there are numbers higher than the highest prime number. This means that aleph-null is also higher than the highest prime number, right? 01:57:13 -!- Sgep has joined. 01:58:09 there are infinte prime numbers, and you can find a prime higher than any given number also 01:59:12 * puzzlet just broke in, so is checking the context of the discussion 01:59:53 * kipple realize he has nothing to contribute to this discussion, and therefore keeps his mouth shut 02:00:07 * Sgep needs to be oriented to this discussion 02:01:20 isn't aleph-one a degree of infinte set, other than just a number? 02:01:37 i don't understand what you're wondering 02:06:56 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 02:07:01 $ ls 02:07:52 echo Hmm, apparently there are no files in this directory 02:08:18 hi, I'm virus 02:08:28 ihope: hint: aleph-zero is not an integer number 02:08:30 s/number// 02:08:31 I need to get by you to --- 02:08:51 ihope: is 3.89723 a prime number? Who knows? 02:09:29 it's not dividable at first look 02:10:40 puzzlet: oh, there's lots of things you could divide it by. 02:12:45 i know :) 02:14:23 i just got curious. is there a concept something like "prime complex number"? 02:17:50 no 02:19:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_ideal 02:20:09 note how that says 02:20:10 "A commutative ring is a field if and only if {0} is its only prime ideal" 02:20:28 so concept of prime numbers is inapplicable to fields 02:20:45 including reals, complex numbers, rationals... 02:23:16 ihope: there's no highest prime number, so aleph-zero cannot be higher than it. 02:23:38 ihope: but aleph-zero is greater than ALL prime numbers :) 02:23:54 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:52:23 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:54:10 -!- calamari has joined. 02:55:07 hi 03:00:33 hi 03:01:01 hi calamari 03:01:16 hi lament, Sgep 03:14:08 $ ls 03:20:31 . .. 03:20:57 -!- CXI has quit ("If you're reading this, it's probably xchat's fault."). 03:24:56 $ cd / ; ls 03:25:45 . .. 03:26:02 lol 03:26:08 That's a problem :P 03:26:35 ;) 03:27:22 . .. lost+found 03:27:44 ls /lost+found 03:27:46 $ ls /lost+found 03:27:56 ls: Permission denied 03:28:17 $ which ls 03:28:45 bash: which: command not found 03:28:49 LOL 03:28:53 Convenient :P 03:29:24 $ echo $PATH 03:29:25 afaik which is a debian program 03:29:40 calamari: Nah, which is generic (...?) 03:29:58 /usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/opt/bin 03:30:21 There's no /usr !!!!!!!!!!! >_O 03:30:34 Well, that was fun :P 03:30:40 GregorR: so? 03:30:48 So where's ls coming from? 03:30:48 it's in $PATH 03:31:01 There's no /usr, there's no /opt, so where's ls coming from? 03:31:01 i'm guessing it's a builtin. 03:31:09 OK, then where's bash coming from? 03:31:12 Oh 03:31:15 the memory. 03:31:21 I guess it could have been running when I rm -rf /*'d :P 03:31:27 yes 03:31:31 statically link bash and try that 03:31:37 OK! 8-D 03:31:40 feel free to chroot first or whatever 03:31:50 No, I'd prefer to wipe out my HDD. 03:31:56 okay, as you wish 03:32:12 of course ls isn't actually a bulitin. 03:32:24 but you could use echo * 03:32:24 good idea.. clean up the drive before the holidays 03:32:40 graue logged on for long enough to tell me he wasn't making the UI for DirectNet, then logged off XD 03:32:41 better yet 03:32:50 alias ls=echo ". .." 03:33:02 lol 03:33:04 ;) 03:33:09 since you don't need any more functionality :) 03:33:16 lament you could work for Lucas 03:33:38 coming up with explanations after the fact 03:33:46 heh 03:36:19 -!- CXI has joined. 03:41:22 -!- Sgep has quit. 03:57:05 lament: i'll sit up front tomorrow. that should make it obvious who i am 03:58:30 * calamari would just stay after class or something.. ;) 03:59:11 bring a Befunge program for him to autograph 03:59:23 haha 03:59:36 i might have one in my notebook 03:59:40 but probably not 03:59:51 cpressey: allright! 04:01:02 and take a pic for the map page ;) 04:02:45 i could take a pic of Spotty Dotty. 04:03:47 what's that 04:05:06 our prof's plush toy dog. 05:27:18 bbl 05:27:19 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 05:48:50 Many pings unto you my friends. 06:40:03 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:45:29 In tcsh you could "ls-F", that's a builtin. 07:47:30 tcsh is for PANSIES ;) 07:52:07 -!- jix has joined. 07:53:26 'ello jix 07:54:24 moin 07:57:00 How goes? 07:57:41 well atm i'm not going i'm sitting right in front of my computer 07:57:57 Heheh 07:58:09 Presumably you're referring to only your inertial frame of reference. 07:58:17 As in a static frame of reference, you are indeed moving. 07:59:21 On an unrelated note, I am officially the over-releaser. 07:59:27 Three releases in three days XD 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:53 stupid french homework 08:06:14 I could help you ... if I knew any French at all :-P 08:20:49 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 09:23:04 -!- nooga has joined. 09:23:19 hi 09:40:07 -!- cpressey has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:46:27 -!- cpressey has joined. 09:53:25 hi cpressey 10:06:16 -!- lirthy has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:07:02 -!- lirthy has joined. 10:56:25 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal"). 13:38:50 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 13:47:58 <{^Raven^}> anyone know of references/guides aimed at a writer of an esolang? 13:58:26 <{^Raven^}> having a concrete idea and doing something with it is proving awkward 14:44:59 -!- kipple has joined. 16:00:12 -!- ihope has joined. 16:01:48 So, is SIMPLE actually a language, or just a description of one? 16:08:49 just a joke 16:24:20 -!- jix has joined. 16:53:45 *yawn* 16:55:39 -!- Freya has joined. 16:55:48 -!- Freya has changed nick to nooga. 16:55:50 hi 16:56:16 i've go an excellent idea :> 16:56:24 got 17:03:53 tell us about it 17:05:16 i will write some interpreters of esolangs for J2ME and then i will be able to play everywhere !!:D 17:05:22 isn't it great? ;p 17:05:31 yes it is 17:05:38 and then and then... maybe for an iPod! 17:05:39 nooga: interesting idea 17:05:51 or Symbian 17:06:08 i'm going to write some for the gp2x (as soon as i get my gp2x) 17:06:23 nooga: what development environment are you planning to use? i've used microemulator.sf.net 17:07:20 oh, last time i've tried to write something for mobile i used siemens sdk + jBuilder ;/ 17:07:49 nooga: sounds proprietary 17:08:00 yes :/ 17:08:26 so then i just got rid of those ;p 17:09:52 the thing is... i just hate java! 17:10:32 but now i'm motivated... 17:10:46 nooga: don't worry, you can develop j2me without proprietary stuff now 17:11:04 cool 17:12:36 brb -> switching to linux 17:12:50 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:16:13 Writing code with a non-qwerty keyboard isn't too fun, though. 17:16:21 -!- nooga has joined. 17:16:23 . 17:16:47 19:15:50 < fizzie> Writing code with a non-qwerty keyboard isn't too fun, though. 17:17:04 hmm, that's right 17:17:29 My TI-86 has a befunge interpreter, but it's not really very usable, and that thing at least has different keys for all letters. 17:17:39 but it makes it even more 'hardcore' 17:18:28 I've been planning a j2me scheme interpreter once or twice. 17:20:44 I ported my java brainfuck interpreter to j2me. worked fine in the emulator, but not on my phone :( 17:21:24 J2ME implementations in phones are horribly horrible. (At least in Nokia's phones, no experience with other manufacturers.) 17:21:33 I have a siemens 17:22:52 I had a Siemens M50 thing, and didn't run into any problems with its j2me implementation. (Wrote an IRC client and a bus-schedule-thing for it.) 17:23:11 hm 17:23:20 i have siemens S55 ;p 17:23:39 Whereas my current N-Gage multimedia mobile gaming deck device (the cheapest S60 device when I bought it) has a rather horrible jvm. 17:23:40 shish... i think i must download netBeans 17:24:53 And the 6600 we had at work was even worse. It claims to support midp2 and mmapi, but it's implemented so badly it's ~useless. 17:25:09 hah 17:25:16 and that's why i hate java 17:25:28 111 MB IDE+SDK 17:25:58 Well, Nokia's S60 Symbian SDK is about the same size. 17:26:15 (And HP's printer driver is >500 MB, so...) 17:26:33 wo and yay... 4% 17:27:45 I don't have a USB-cable for my phone (or a wireless connection), so I have to pay for each time i download a program into it. Which is why I gave up debugging it 17:28:00 nooga: why do you must download netbeans? ;) 17:28:14 "Description: If the FullScreenMode of Canvas is changed to true, the Commands in the Options menu don't have any effect. If any soft key is pressed, the Options menu is shown, but choosing a Command does nothing. Solution: No solutions exist for software version 3.42.1 or 4.09.1." 17:28:49 "Description: Commands can be added to full screen but they do not work. Solution: No solutions exist for software version 3.42.1, but this issue has been corrected in software version 4.09.1." 17:28:59 lindi-: i don't imagine coding in *JAVA* without IDE 17:29:05 Two adjacent entries from the nokia 6600 j2me known issues document. 17:29:08 Eclipse's free. 17:29:12 nooga: why not use eclipse? 17:29:23 because it's even bigger and hard to configure 17:29:27 both debian and fedora include it 17:29:52 * kipple is still using a straight text editor to code java. 17:29:57 even I managed to import stuff to it and i rarely use these so called IDEs 17:30:27 nooga: well, take another look and ask if you hit problems 17:31:55 STUPID FRENCH HOMEWORK! 17:35:30 HM 17:35:42 i wonder is there eclipse for suse 10 17:37:17 http://www.novell.com/products/linuxpackages/professional/eclipse-gtk2.html says there is. 18:04:27 yea 96% 18:39:55 fizzie: but that probably runs on some proprietary jvm 18:48:19 idk 18:49:02 now i must go and do my home...fu**ing...work 18:49:06 shihs 18:49:09 bye 18:49:26 -!- nooga has quit ("leaving"). 19:06:47 -!- Keymaker has joined. 19:07:27 evenin' 19:09:48 'lo 19:12:01 hi 19:12:21 kipple: by the way, remember codename: rgb? 19:12:32 yeah ... 19:12:42 perhaps we should continue some time..? 19:12:48 perhaps 19:13:01 :) 19:15:02 * kipple looks up codename:rgb on the wiki 19:20:42 hmm. if each instruction has a pre-determined number of arguments then we don't need to use B for argcount 19:21:00 d'oh 19:21:01 true 19:21:28 though it is nice to be able to use an arbitrary number of args for certain instructions 19:21:34 yeah 19:21:44 so, it may be good choice, afterall 19:22:46 I'm not sure. There are probably other uses for the B too 19:24:05 hmm 19:27:40 i'd like to create something oldskool esolang.. 19:28:01 like some bizarre basic.. 19:28:07 BB :) 19:28:39 that would be against all that basic stands for :) 19:28:44 unbasic 19:28:52 hehe, yeah 19:29:04 kind of like VB 19:29:07 hehe 19:30:09 there should be more languages with COME FROM 19:30:17 what that means? 19:30:29 it's an instruction. the opposite of GOTO 19:30:35 haha 19:30:42 how does that work? 19:30:46 I think it appeared in INTERCAL first 19:31:22 if you have a statement that says COME FROM 23, then when the program reaches line 23 it jumps to the come from 19:31:41 cool! :) 19:32:18 what happens when you have several come froms with the same line# could be a lot of fun 19:32:31 hehe 19:33:04 guess forking the program is the most natural solution 19:34:57 hmm. occult is the opposite of visual, right? Occult Basic could be an interesting language :) 19:35:06 :) 19:37:10 that kind of language probably shouldn't output anything nor let user know anything of its state 19:38:39 according to the wikipedia " A very minimal BASIC syntax only needs the LET, PRINT, IF and GOTO commands." 19:39:01 what's LET doing, by the way? 19:39:10 variable assignment I suppose 19:39:14 yep 19:39:16 oh, yeah 19:39:19 LET A = 1 19:39:24 now i remember.. 19:39:40 hah, now that's called minimal basic instead of esoteric :D 19:47:39 this is fun.. 19:47:47 i'm planning "bizarre basic" 19:48:10 it'll have some assembler features 19:48:26 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:48:33 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:49:15 arrays and variables are really unnecessary. you could instead store data in the program space. 19:49:25 then self-modification also becomes possible :) 19:49:28 :D 19:50:34 that's true, although it's difficult in language where instructions are long (in other words, not one character) 19:50:54 i think i'll have variables, but allow selfmodifying whole lines 19:50:59 true. but difficult is a good thing, right? ;) 19:51:03 hehe :) 19:51:52 oh no.. 19:52:15 the problem will be the implementation.. well, must ask jix once the specs is done :) 20:10:23 -!- Sgep has joined. 20:30:59 shouldn't be that hard to implement a basic-like language 20:31:14 well, with my real-language-programming-skills, yes 20:46:35 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 20:55:50 -!- calamari has joined. 20:56:09 hi 20:56:20 hi 20:56:32 just posted my second entry at your forum 20:56:35 hi Keymaker 20:56:38 cool! 20:56:57 * GregorR-L has been too busy with /real/ code to write BF ;) 20:57:04 :P 20:57:14 * calamari just got done taking an exam.. now I can work on my entry without feeling guilty 20:57:21 hehe 20:58:22 nice job 20:58:30 cheers 20:59:08 I assume your 2nd entry was shorter than the first? :) 20:59:13 yeah 20:59:18 :) 20:59:19 about 170 bytes 21:02:49 I updated your original entry a tad 21:02:51 Our classroom just crashed :P 21:03:10 any deaths or dismemberments? 21:03:28 No, just the technology is all dead. 21:04:14 wha forum? 21:04:20 scream out "Thank you for choosing Microsoft products" 21:04:36 Sgep: http://esoforum.kidsquid.com/ 21:04:58 calamari: How did you know it was MS? ;) 21:05:14 because I just knew 21:06:19 Hmm... self-modifying Foobar? 21:06:19 my weird Linux crashes aside (probably my fault or hardware related), most Linux machines I've used are rock solid 21:06:51 of course, I can ssh into a machine and fork-bomb.. 21:07:30 Wikipedia is getting slower, it seems... 21:09:50 calamari: ok. by the way, i just checked, and the first was 574 bytes 21:10:05 -!- Arrogant has joined. 21:10:23 ihope: what are they using to run the search engine nowadays? 21:10:47 I dunno. 21:12:16 i'll go.. ZZzzZzz.. good night 21:12:22 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 21:15:54 Router lag: 22ms 21:16:28 'Net lag: 140ms 21:18:54 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:24:10 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 21:38:30 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving"). 21:39:18 bbl 21:39:21 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 21:46:14 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:00:40 I just realized there's an esoteric programming language already in common use, and often called "legalese". 22:08:18 -!- ihope has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]"). 23:00:26 -!- kipple_ has joined. 23:00:27 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:14:09 -!- mad has joined. 23:14:54 hey 23:16:07 himad 2005-11-23: 01:28:34 * {^Raven^} is stuck 01:29:11 <{^Raven^}> idea for esolang != clue to implementation 01:30:09 what's the problem? 01:32:37 <{^Raven^}> have an idea for a wierd esolang implementation, got the basic structure worked but he rest is hiding from me 01:34:33 -!- mad has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:34:53 <{^Raven^}> i'm stuck working out a language to use inside the esoteric structure 01:42:13 -!- marcan has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:47:43 -!- marcan has joined. 01:48:55 -!- {^Raven^} has quit ("Leaving"). 02:19:04 -!- lirthy has quit (Connection reset by peer). 02:19:18 -!- lirthy has joined. 03:24:34 -!- GregorR has joined. 03:44:01 -!- Arrogant has joined. 05:04:12 -!- Sgep has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:29:54 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving"). 05:52:03 -!- kipple_ has quit ("See you later"). 06:52:10 -!- lament has changed nick to biznitch. 06:52:44 -!- biznitch has changed nick to lament. 06:57:04 -!- GregorR has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [CentOS 1.0.7-1.4.1.centos4/20050923]"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:38:02 haha, wow 08:38:08 has anyone here heard of the J programming language? 08:38:51 for some reason wikipedia doesn't have it under the esolang category 11:17:43 -!- jix has joined. 12:03:22 -!- kipple has joined. 13:04:28 CXI: I wouldn't count J as an esolang 13:27:11 -!- marcan has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:44:01 I'd say it's debatable :P 13:46:04 i'm working on a whitespace mandelbrot 14:02:49 -!- nooga has joined. 14:02:54 hi 14:03:11 * nooga has got netbeans and everything... 14:27:24 but i can't install !@$#@^% j2me -.-' 15:13:07 H4sIALCGhEMAA3VRWw6AMAj7bk/R+59SVso2TZxRSdMHMEkQ6+NTdR3CP8C4kNd4QVTDLlhP6NSmuAbR5txkjANiE8Tmcvrpg2kH1rl0HiavUd6ircHWMM0x7EjeyYrJJCpY+lpkMtMkhBqWB/XMzNZC9G5mqM6ZXb7ndELrFo/K3L/3cntbhY/7fWuxX0fdOU/z7L4X4QHBZEA/DAIAAA== 15:13:18 this is my gziped base64ed whitespace mandelbrot 15:14:48 whow 15:15:00 mandelbrot in whitespace? 15:15:47 im playing with netBeans -.-' 15:15:48 yes 15:37:46 designing menus and everything is fun ... but time to code for real -.-' 15:37:52 shish... i hate java 15:53:48 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal"). 19:12:44 -!- Arrogant has joined. 19:31:19 moin Arrogant 19:31:37 Ahoy 19:41:09 -!- MadBrain2 has joined. 19:49:39 -!- Keymaker has joined. 19:50:09 'ello 19:50:31 moin Keymaker 19:50:47 hi 19:50:47 i wrote a whitespace mandelbrot 19:50:47 how does the mandelbrot work? 19:51:01 hmm? well it works like mandelbrot works... 19:51:11 :) 19:51:42 it prints ascii? 19:51:46 yes 19:51:51 ok 19:53:52 -!- Sgep has joined. 19:55:02 next lang to implement mandelbrot! 19:55:45 befunge :) 19:56:48 no 19:56:54 why no? 19:56:56 *t 19:57:07 because there is a mandelbrot for befunge somewhere 19:57:12 ok 19:57:38 hmmm.. subskin? 19:57:53 hmm yeah why not... 19:58:03 that'd be awesome 19:59:22 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving"). 19:59:40 but i'd prefer to implement mandelbrot in a language not written by me 19:59:52 no wait! i'm going to implement a compression routine in axo! 19:59:58 axo? 20:00:10 my fungoid 20:00:13 ah 20:00:19 (i wrote it before i knew befunge) 20:00:49 i knew there are 2dimensional languages but i never saw one then 20:00:58 ok 20:01:32 here is the spec: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Axo 20:01:52 yeah, i've seen it.. i just couldn't remember the name first 20:05:20 idea! write an optimizing axo compiler 20:05:29 but first compression 20:10:06 no nothing more today.. i'm too tired 20:11:44 i'm tired as well.. 20:20:36 -!- GregorR has joined. 20:26:55 moxie 20:26:59 errh, hello 20:28:18 * Keymaker sends GregorR a subliminal message: "drink moxie" 20:28:33 Hmm 20:28:37 * GregorR grabs a Moxie. 20:29:04 heh 20:29:13 hey Keymaker. Any progress with the bizarre basic? 20:29:20 hi 20:29:23 too bad not yet 20:29:29 i've read to an exam 20:29:35 -!- ihope has joined. 20:29:38 ..but now i have some time :) 20:29:53 Memory abstraction layer... 20:30:08 what's that? 20:30:25 The Memory Abstraction Layer for Esoteric Kernels. 20:36:20 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 20:38:48 i think bizarre basic will have memory inside the program file 20:39:00 :) I like it 20:39:05 :) 20:39:37 should the very first line be line 0 or line 1? 20:39:52 I think the original basic used 1 20:39:58 yeah 20:40:16 or you could use something else like -17.345 20:40:23 haha 20:40:25 but then again, maybe not 20:40:31 yeah 20:40:44 i'll stick with the first one (ha ha ha) 20:41:26 you could let the user define them himself 20:41:37 define what? lines? 20:41:40 I don't suppose you're going to use imaginary numbers in there at all? 20:41:50 I remember from gwbasic (my first programming language), that you had to start each line with a number 20:41:55 -!- calamari has joined. 20:42:00 hi cal 20:42:01 hi 20:42:04 hi Sgep 20:42:06 hi 20:42:17 I think that is a nice way to do it 20:42:21 hello, also 20:42:28 hmm 20:42:35 yeah, it's oldschool at least :) 20:42:39 very 20:42:44 hi keymaker, kipple 20:42:53 hi calamari 20:43:32 it was normal to use 10, 20, 30 etc. as line numbers so you could insert lines between them without renumbering 20:43:42 yeah 20:43:47 How about not referencing lines by numbers, but by... something else? 20:43:56 I think I've figured out how I want Linguine to work.. still a lot like Spaghetti 20:43:57 if you use floating point line numbers that would be even more flexible! 20:44:09 hah 20:44:16 i don't like floats 20:44:33 especially in my drink 20:44:42 what's Linguine? 20:44:46 You could use functions as line identifiers... 20:45:03 i don't think i 'could' 20:45:03 kipple: "spaghetti 2" basically 20:45:08 you could use anything really 20:45:10 i don't understand them :p 20:45:26 hexadecimal too 20:45:46 kipple: it should be turing complete this time and not have the same pointer problem.. last time it was rather annoying to use without much eso-benefit 20:46:06 don't remember the spaghetti language. sorry ;) 20:46:23 that's okay.. it was never big 20:46:40 it forced every instruction to be followed by a goto 20:46:51 and every instruction had a line number 20:47:08 so you could randomly rearrange the program lines and it still worked 20:47:30 What if lines had to be arranged in a specific order, but characters within each lines could be randomly arranged? 20:48:07 ihope: I think that would make it difficult to tell 123 from 321 :) 20:48:10 hey, this was supposed to be basic.. 20:48:15 ;) 20:49:10 unless I came up with a different number system 20:49:43 a=1, b=2, c=4, etc.. but then it would have a max number size 20:51:51 Continue with ^[aa, ^[ab, ^[ac, etc 20:53:16 planning a basic language is hard because there's so much stuff to choose from.. 20:53:37 basic language? 20:53:43 bizarre basic 20:53:53 my new esolanguage plan 20:53:59 oic.. so like basic with weird stuff added in? 20:54:05 yeah 20:54:12 I don't see how BASIC needs anything added to be bizarre ;) 20:54:18 :) 20:54:24 GregorR: not a basic fan? 20:54:36 No, not really :P 20:54:47 It's pre-structured-programming. 20:54:51 It's spaghetti programming :P 20:54:53 Just change the name to COMPLICATED and you've got an esoteric programming language :-) 20:54:55 (Not really, but basically) 20:55:11 GregorR: nah.. quickbasic removes all the line numbers.. it's a good lang 20:55:20 I wasn't referring to line numbers. 20:55:21 basics can be more low-level, in a way 20:55:33 I was referring to the fact that it doesn't have anything for decent data structures, etc. 20:55:45 so..? 20:55:46 Is BASIC Turing-complete? 20:55:49 GregorR: it has type (similar to struct) 20:55:54 i guess 20:56:00 ihope: yes 20:56:22 it'd be strange if it weren't 20:58:44 quick poll: perl, python, ruby, or java? 20:58:51 python 20:58:52 Haskell? 21:00:29 is haskell free software? not seeing a debian package for it 21:00:35 How is that a poll? 21:00:38 What a strange poll ... 21:00:47 Scripting, scripting, scripting or compiled? 21:00:49 Doesn't Hugs have one? 21:01:05 GregorR: ahh.. but they all run on vm's, don't they? 21:01:30 In the most technical sense, yes. 21:01:41 so the poll is consistent :) 21:01:45 You could run C on a VM. 21:01:51 yes you could 21:01:57 but I don't know of such a thing 21:02:01 qemu 21:02:06 an interpreted c 21:02:11 I didn't say interpreted. 21:02:50 the point is that none of those langs is compiled to linux, windows, etc native code 21:03:02 perl can be ;) 21:03:17 without an embedded interp? 21:03:50 befunge can be compiled as an interp + code.. but that's hardly compiled :) 21:03:54 It links to libperl, but I don't think it works by having an embedded interpreter. 21:04:07 Java can be compiled. 21:04:07 I think libperl just provides convenience functions (so to speek) 21:04:08 There's gcj. 21:04:11 Yup 21:04:42 I thought gcj was doing a wrapper trick tho.. 21:04:51 calamari: wrapper trick? 21:04:54 It links to a libjava, but, well, so does C :P 21:05:05 and libjava is native? 21:05:15 cool then 21:05:25 calamari: libjava is written in java and compiled to native 21:05:36 well whatever... 21:05:46 just like libc :) 21:05:48 * calamari chooses python, since that was the only valid vote :) 21:05:53 lol 21:06:01 C, calamari, C! 21:06:30 brainfuck! 21:06:49 but those aren't options :) 21:06:57 Glass? 21:07:00 calamari: apt-cache search haskell finds 69 packages 21:07:00 ORK? 21:07:00 perl, python, ruby, or java? 21:07:00 :) 21:07:21 Well, not perl, and not Java, so I'd go with python. 21:07:44 lindi-: weird.. must be Ubuntu then.. I have all sorts of haskell docs and things, but no haskell itself 21:07:59 haskell is a language 21:08:21 ghaskell? :P 21:08:34 Haskell -> Lazy K? 21:08:35 ghc-cvs - GHC - the Glasgow Haskell Compilation system ? 21:08:36 Hugs is the interpreter I've used. 21:11:27 Debian is not being friendly to me again. Eclipse debs are in unstable only, and depend on libgcj6 >= 4.0.2-3, and 4.0.2-2 is the version in testing. Maybe I should switch completely to unstable and not try to have this weird hybrid. 21:13:07 fizzie: i run unstable under chroot, safe and easy 21:13:13 I didn't use an eclipse package.. just d/led and installed 21:13:37 I've been using a manually downloaded eclipse so far, but since there is a debian package.. 21:27:54 good night.. 21:27:59 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 21:36:37 -!- ihope has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]"). 2005-11-24: 00:04:41 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server"). 00:04:47 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:11:22 -!- lament has quit (Broken pipe). 00:19:18 -!- pgimeno has quit ("This is the default quit message"). 00:19:18 -!- pgimeno_ has joined. 00:19:41 -!- lament has joined. 00:26:24 -!- Sgeper has joined. 00:29:53 -!- ihope has joined. 00:30:39 hi ihope 00:30:51 Hello 00:32:13 Some combinators: ``^ab -> `ba; ```*abc -> `b`ac; ````+abcd -> ``bc``acd 00:40:59 heh, I should learn that kind of crazy functional programming one of those days 00:41:41 Those all perform their respective operations on Church numerals. 00:42:13 As well, they are the reverse application function, the composition function, and the substituted composition function. 01:01:14 Meh. Tried to make jogl work with gcj (it should be possible now, since there's libjawt included), but can't get past http://gehennom.org/~fis/jogl.txt 01:04:43 I'm blaming lindi. Normally I'd have been content enough with Sun's evil proprietary JDK. 01:05:34 -!- lament has changed nick to pau. 01:10:27 ihope: I see 01:17:12 -!- iano has joined. 01:19:06 _Whoa._ Jogl with SWT apparently even seems to work with gcj, provided I give it enough magic. 01:19:44 gcj --classpath ../jogl.jar:./swt.jar -findirect-dispatch -o jtest --main=jtest jtest.java ; export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.4.2-gcj-4.0-1.4.2.0/jre/lib/i386:.:../jogl-natives ; export CLASSPATH=../jogl.jar:./swt.jar ; ./jtest works. 01:23:01 what's jogl? 01:23:10 OpenGL bindings for Java. 01:23:19 aha 01:23:27 what are you making? 01:23:56 I guess it's not esoteric related... 01:24:46 Not really, no. Our computer graphics course assignments were made with jogl, and I got curious whether it would work with gcj. (And incidentally I have an opengl application to write, and was going to use C++ for it, but compiled Java might suffice. If only it wouldn't be this horrible to write.) 01:25:22 why gcj? 01:25:34 It's GNU. :p 01:25:41 ah, yes 01:25:42 Lindi uses gcj, afaik. :p 01:26:09 Sun's java is much faster than gcj in my experience 01:27:26 But it's an evil soulless corporation. Completely unlike the warm-and-fuzzy-feelings GNU. 01:27:45 hehe 01:28:17 And gcj should be relatively fast, when all the classes are compiled to native code. I understand much of it's slowness is because it needs, for one reason or another, bytecode-interpret things. 01:28:45 Oh well, maybe I'll stick with C++, or plain C. 01:36:09 Well, I decided to make a design for SLOBOL. Programs will be in the form of SHA-1 hashes. 01:36:42 SLOBOL? is that one of the lesser known ones? 01:40:03 Make that SHA-512 hashes. 01:51:29 -!- pgimeno_ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:51:29 -!- MadBrain2 has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:51:42 -!- pgimeno_ has joined. 01:53:48 -!- iano has quit. 01:56:00 -!- lirthy has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:01:46 is that the one that it's supposed to take a long time to compile programs ? 02:02:26 * calamari wonders if SHA-512 existed in 1982 02:04:25 err 1984 I guess 02:04:42 actually it was 1982.. okay 02:05:25 my guess: no sha512 in 1982... 02:06:30 * calamari suggests that SLOBOL not include SHA-512 then :) 02:14:14 -!- lirthy has joined. 02:41:19 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:56:58 -!- GregorR has changed nick to GregorR[notHome]. 03:53:19 calamari: hey 03:53:40 ftr, it appears that there is no universal decider. 03:54:12 if by "decider" you mean "a machine which computes only primitive recursive functions" 03:54:20 http://www.math.psu.edu/~clemens/Math459/computability.pdf 03:54:31 gives a proof that there is no universal primitive recursive function 03:55:16 on the other hand... you can take any universal turing machine, and IF you only feed it turing machines that are guaranteed to halt on its input... then (trivially) the UTM will always halt :) 04:00:08 hi Chris 04:01:44 yeah, I incorrectly used the term "universal decider" when I really meant "machine that always halts" 04:01:44 so basically what I was after was a language capable of describing every language that always halts 04:02:01 hi 04:02:03 well 04:02:14 i don't think that can be done 04:02:34 or rather 04:02:53 that language must also be capable of describing languages that don't halt 04:03:03 why is that? 04:03:24 or is it in the pdf? :) 04:03:29 diagonalization 04:03:31 basically 04:03:57 look at it this way: 04:04:10 so to make the lang powerful enough for deciders, it will also need to understand tm's ? 04:04:27 what do you want your machine (/language) to do, if it is given a machine (/language) that doesn't halt, on its input? 04:04:47 that shouldn't be possible 04:04:55 well, how do you plan to stop it? 04:05:08 the syntax of the language would prevent writing programs that wouldn't halt 04:05:25 but there are some programs that won't halt that are undescribable in that language 04:05:46 really? how odd 04:06:00 can you give an example? 04:06:10 oh wait 04:06:12 I misread 04:06:47 I don't wish to run programs that won't halt, I only wish to allow programs that do 04:07:08 so it would not be as powerful as a tm 04:07:48 I thought we decided that PL-{GOTO} was the lnguage I was looking for 04:08:09 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:08:30 and that it boiled down to a language consisting of if-else statements 04:08:37 ok, how to explain this... PL-{GOTO} describes primitive recursive functions; all primitive recursive functions are guaranteed to halt; but not all functions that are guaranteed to halt are primitive recursive 04:08:57 ok 04:09:42 there are some general-recursive functions which could be proven to halt, but which can't be written in PL-{GOTO} 04:10:08 ugh.. that's bad 04:10:19 basically... you can't write a PL-{GOTO} interpreter in PL-{GOTO}. even though the PL-{GOTO} interpreter will always halt. 04:10:33 oh that's okay 04:10:44 I would write the PL-{GOTO} interpreter in a TM language 04:11:34 it doesn't really matter to me what the interpreter is written in 04:11:47 sure. it's not as bad as it sounds; there are lots of interesting prim-rec functions; factorial, for example 04:13:10 let me make sure I understand what you're saying.. are you saying that the language PL-{GOTO} isn't capable of describing all possible deciders? 04:13:57 no, it is capable of that. what it's not capable of is describing a decider which simulates some other decider (like a UTM simulates some other TM.) 04:14:06 * Sgeper sees why... PL-{GOTO}, if it wants to be able to always halt, cannot be turing-complete 04:14:08 s/some/any/ 04:14:09 oh.. okay, no problem then 04:14:16 * Sgeper thinks 04:14:28 PL-{GOTO} is exactly what I was looking for then :) 04:14:32 ok 04:14:35 scared me for a minute hehe 04:15:09 and if I understand correctly, PL-{GOTO} can be implemented with if-else 04:15:26 i was thinking along different lines, a bit. consider: if you want to make a UTM which will only simulate TM's that halt... it has to prove that they halt first, which of course runs smack up against the halting problem 04:15:53 oops I said that wrong 04:15:54 PL-{GOTO} is more than if-else. it contains loops. but the loops are guaranteed to halt 04:16:17 right, so I can unroll the loops 04:17:07 then I'd have a programming language where there was only if-else statements.. or are the loops not unrollable? 04:18:31 "When a LOOP statement is encountered, the value of the LOOP variable specifies the # of times that the group of statements inside the LOOP is to be executed" 04:18:43 the variable doesn't need to be constant 04:18:44 so, no 04:18:48 i don't think you can unroll that. 04:19:07 nice 04:19:15 But LOOP variable's value can't be changed inside the loop? 04:19:23 I guess it assumes that the loop var won't change 04:19:28 Sgep hehehe 04:19:39 Sgeper: looks like it can't 04:20:03 if it can't, then that should mean we could work backwards and discover the value of the loop variable? 04:20:29 if you say: LOOP X ; X <- X + 1 ; END then the loop occurs only the # of times as X originally contained 04:26:56 in other news, i've been trying to read this book: 04:26:58 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0387982817/103-0339561-1100666 04:27:17 you can feel the hurting 04:30:29 * calamari guesses that mandelbrot is not discussed anywhere inside the text 04:30:47 oops, it is 04:31:04 wee things that halt 04:31:07 -!- pau has changed nick to lament. 04:31:09 yay.. a non-meaningless graphic used for a book cover 04:31:11 and things that don't 04:31:40 everything that's fun doesn't halt :( 04:32:55 I guess that means you're no fun :( 04:33:57 :( 04:34:13 what is this PL-{goto} you keep talking abouT? 04:35:15 it is a language that Brainerd, et all made up 04:35:24 in a computation theory book 04:35:50 then it subtracts the GOTO statement 04:36:24 wonder when that book will get here... hehe 04:36:42 I looked at it in the school library for a few mins 04:38:10 ah. 04:42:15 -!- Sgep has quit (Success). 04:42:16 -!- Sgeper has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:44:33 hi lament 04:44:45 PL-{GOTO} actually looks trivial to implement 04:45:42 the GOTO is the most complicated part of PL, by the looks of it 04:46:00 * lament distrusts languages that halt 04:46:40 it's not fun when everything can be optimized to a single instruction :) 04:47:12 i trust them to halt :> unless you give them an infinite amount of input or something pathological like that 04:49:08 i guess one could have fun writing an interpreter for brainfuck-with-limited-running-time in it, or something like that. 04:49:19 Time bomb brainfuck. 04:49:59 (if that can be done at all...) 04:50:57 they should have a complementary langugage with programs guaranteed to not halt. 04:51:29 Solving the halting problem in a neat new way. 04:52:15 lament: something like adding [-]+[] to the end of bf programs? :) 04:53:17 that could work, although i'm sure there're more interesting ways to do this. 04:53:33 For example a language in which the only statement is GOTO. 04:53:43 I'll call it GOTO-{PL} 04:53:55 :P 04:54:08 ah hrm 04:54:21 * calamari tests his Linguine interpreter 04:55:04 * lament meditates on the profound differences between "1. goto 1" and "1. goto 2; 2. goto 1" 04:57:25 Program ::= Instruction [Program] 04:57:25 Instruction ::= (Loop | Assignment) ";" 04:57:25 Loop ::= "LOOP" Name ";" Program "END" 04:57:25 Assignment ::= Name "<-" ("0" | Name ["+" "1"]) 04:57:25 Name ::= <> 04:57:48 that's my renditiion of an EBNF grammar for PL-{GOTO}. 04:58:07 if it didn't have a hundred other things to do, i'd be tempted to implement it 04:58:11 that seems horribly impotent 04:58:45 that's certainly a colourful way to say "not turing complete" :) 04:59:07 well, there's not turing complete and there's not turing complete :) 04:59:23 computers aren't turing-complete but they can still do a lot of stuff. 04:59:36 this thing though... 05:00:07 it almost reminds me of that guy's brainfuck variant ages ago on the mailing list. 05:00:15 that had no loops. 05:00:18 this thing can multiply arbitrarily large integers together... fsa's can't do that. 05:01:02 but can you write a web server in it?? I don't think so!! 05:02:00 is there a name for this class of abilities? 05:02:16 primitive recursive functions? 05:02:49 yep, primitive recursive functions. 05:03:08 awesome. 05:03:49 which godel originally thought represented all computable functions. until ackermann gave a counterexample, which is today slightly famous 05:04:02 right. 05:21:30 1[0=72,0$,0+29,0$,0+7,0$,0$,0+3,0$,1=32,1$,0-24,0$,0+24,0$,0+3,0$,0-6,0$,0-8,0$,1+1,1$,1-23,1$]0 05:21:50 is that too easy? :) 05:43:14 calamari: what on earth is that? 05:50:59 Hello World in Linguine 05:52:14 I made Linguine after implementing BF in Spaghetti and noticing some things that were annoying, but not really esoteric either 05:53:10 so now there are infinite pointers, infinite memory cells, and each cell can hold any integer value 05:53:23 much easier to work with 05:53:43 rather than silly pointer building 05:57:29 also adds negative cell values and line numbers just for fun 05:57:49 err negative cell indices 06:00:00 ah, cool 06:04:26 infinite pointers? 06:04:38 cpressey: do you think i should skip tomorrow's lecture? :) 06:05:30 lament: infinite number of them, vs Spaghetti only having a single pointer 06:05:39 ah 06:07:12 perhaps unlimited is a better term 06:07:56 yes. I thought you'd have actual infinite pointers somehow. 06:08:20 whatever _that_ would mean. 06:10:26 not very much since infinity isn't a number 06:11:29 hehe -1[-2--3]-4 06:12:41 translation: -1: mem[-2] -= -3; goto -4; 06:14:40 my infinities are numbers :) 06:25:07 lament: that's up to you, i suppose :) 06:26:27 we're gonna start objects i think :( 06:26:29 objects suck :( 06:31:19 ah, but we also have course evaluations tomorrow, so if you skip, you won't get the chance to affect steve's funding in the future! 06:31:52 bah 06:31:56 i already had a course with steve 06:32:07 so i wrote he's the best prof ever and too bad he teaches CS and not math :) 06:32:42 that should be enough i think :) 06:45:00 -!- Arrogant has joined. 07:01:21 -!- lirthy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:09:23 -!- lirthy has joined. 07:28:36 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:43:21 -!- nooga has joined. 07:43:35 hi 07:47:48 hehe 07:48:10 my bfi for MIDP1.0 crashes even emulator :F 07:52:35 im the best 07:58:26 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:12 -!- jix has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:50 ji jix 08:02:38 ji? 08:02:39 moin nooga 08:02:44 hi* 08:02:51 08:47 < nooga> my bfi for MIDP1.0 crashes even emulator :F 08:02:51 08:52 < nooga> im the best 08:03:00 haha^^ 08:03:16 midlet programming is cool 08:03:19 i like it 08:03:29 with netBeans (sic) 08:12:25 java isnt so bad under linux 09:09:15 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal"). 10:28:41 -!- pgimeno_ has changed nick to pgimeno. 10:29:03 -!- J|x has joined. 10:36:38 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:39:31 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:26:05 fizzie: jogl seems to compile on debian unstable quite easily, http://iki.fi/lindi/build-jogl.txt 11:34:13 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 12:09:40 lindi; This is debian unstable, and it just didn't compile (tm) here. 12:10:37 I might retry it to see where it failed. 12:10:41 fizzie: those four symlinks need to be fixed at least 12:10:52 i already reported it as a bug 12:11:08 fizzie: try taking exactly the same steps that i took 12:11:34 Later tonight, perhaps. 12:12:07 Although with gcj probably a CNI-based opengl binding thing (instead of the JNI jogl uses) might make more sense. 12:12:49 Have you tried to run anything with the jogl library you compiled? 12:13:11 this vncserver does not provide GLX extension so nope :/ 12:14:00 Well, I guess I'll try to compile it. 12:14:14 shouldn't take that long "Total time: 22 minutes 4 seconds 12:15:00 I wonder what's with the "needs LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.4.2-gcj-4.0-1.4.2.0/jre/lib/i386 to find libjawt" thing, too. 12:24:32 fizzie: https://jogl-demos.dev.java.net/source/browse/jogl-demos/ does not seem to respond so I can't get the source for those demos 12:24:58 BUILD FAILED 12:24:58 /home/fis/prog/java/jogl/make/build.xml:1221: The following error occurred while executing this line: 12:25:01 /home/fis/prog/java/jogl/make/build.xml:506: GlueGen returned: 1 12:25:01 Same as last time. 12:25:04 Total time: 4 minutes 59 seconds 12:25:37 interesting 12:25:49 Seems I missed a symlink. 12:26:21 fizzie: https://jogl-demos.dev.java.net/servlets/ProjectSource says that i need to login to see cvs instructions 12:26:56 Or mispointed, actually. 12:27:27 /usr/lib/jvm/java-1.4.2-gcj-4.0-1.4.2.0/include/linux/jawt_md.h now points to ../../../gcc/[blah], which is missing one '..'. 12:27:35 hope they'll fix those symlinks soon 12:28:45 oh, indeed. i wrote down those instructions AFTER i had built it :) 12:29:24 BUILD FAILED 12:29:24 /home/fis/prog/java/jogl/make/build.xml:1221: The following error occurred while executing this line: 12:29:28 /home/fis/prog/java/jogl/make/build.xml:635: Compile failed; see the compiler error output for details. 12:29:37 [javac] 565 problems (373 errors, 192 warnings) 12:30:30 can you put the full build log online? i used screen's "^a H" to capture it 12:30:44 Am capturing it now. 12:31:32 fizzie: also, that ant build.xml is seriously broken. if the build fails once you have no way to retry easily :) 12:32:06 fizzie: it sets some variables in build targets. if it considers those build targets done the variables are never set and the build fails later because of that 12:32:35 http://gehennom.org/~fis/jogl-ant.txt (and jtest.java in the same directory is a really minimal test executable, which fails with sigsegv here when used with pre-built jogl.jar) 12:32:39 (alternatively i'm missing something very important) 12:33:48 fizzie: rm -fr and unzip the source again and retry ;) 12:35:19 "Ergh." 12:35:37 Heh, from Gluegen.java: 12:35:38 * You acknowledge that this software is not designed or intended for use 12:35:38 * in the design, construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear 12:35:38 * facility. 12:35:43 or fix the build.xml 12:36:31 Already rm'd and restarted. This time under ^a-H from the start. 12:43:15 A simple set of opengl bindings shouldn't really take this long to compile. :p 12:43:57 [javac] 344 problems (344 warnings) 12:43:58 Yay. 12:44:02 hmm, awt/swing is broken in gcj, gij and kaffe in debian unstable at the moment 12:44:37 BUILD SUCCESSFUL 12:44:37 Total time: 8 minutes 27 seconds 12:45:05 congrats :) 12:46:07 I'm guessing I'll get the same sigsegv-from-JAWT_GetAWT with this jogl, too. 12:46:45 see above, awt is broken in unstable :/ it works with jamvm and sablevm but i don't know if those can work with jogl 12:47:29 both jamvm and sablevm cause java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: Native library `jawt' not found (as file `libjawt') in gnu.classpath.boot.library.path and java.library.path 12:47:35 Well, SWT (>= 3.2M1 or M2) has an opengl canvas that's usable with jogl, managed to get a black screen with it. 12:47:53 yes, swt works as eclipse uses it :) 12:48:08 But the swt in unstable is 3.1 still. 12:48:16 but try any awt hello world and see it fail with gcj, gij or kaffe 12:49:03 I guess I should get to work now, at least there I'd get paid for having to deal with things that don't work. 12:50:13 Although my Tomcat installation has (knocking-on-a-wooden-surface) miraculously fixed itself, apparently when I upgraded 5.5.9 -> 5.5.12. 12:50:52 It runs on Sun JDK/JRE there. :p 12:51:02 Away now. 12:51:03 i have glx on this 200MHz pentium system but gij seems to take a while to start... 12:52:50 fizzie: ok, i get a window with title "jogl/awt test..." with some random piexls in it 12:54:08 fizzie: i just did export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/home/lindi/local/jogl/build/obj/; java -cp /home/lindi/local/jogl/build/jogl.jar:. jtest 12:58:04 Wow. I wonder why I don't. 12:58:34 What's that "java" there? 13:03:12 /usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/java 13:05:22 http://fitzsim.org/blog/ seems to mention jogl working too 13:06:59 let's see if i can retrieve source of jogl-demos with http://iki.fi/lindi/cvsweb-dump.pl 13:08:07 hmm, that's not quite secure .P 14:05:51 But didn't you mention a broken awt? 14:06:07 fizzie: i did, that that's why i'm bit puzzled here 14:06:55 fizzie: swing hello world fails with "** ERROR **: file ../../../src/libjava/jni/gtk-peer/gnu_java_awt_peer_gtk_GtkImage.c: line 572 (createRawData): assertion failed: (data_fid != 0)" 14:07:01 With your invocation, I get: 14:07:02 Exception in thread "main" java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: libjawt: libjawt.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory 14:07:51 And if I add /usr/lib/jvm/java-1.4.2-gcj-4.0-1.4.2.0/jre/lib/i386 to LD_LIBRARY_PATH, I.. 14:07:55 Hmm. 14:08:15 I used to get that SIGSEGV I mentioned. 14:08:51 With this gcj-compiled jogl, it doesn't segfault. I might even have a window on my screen now - am not at home, so can't check. 14:09:59 I'd like a native-code-compiled jogl, though. 14:10:47 it's just that gcc is always bit old when it comes to gnu classpath. it's easier to test things with interpreters like jamvm because they can use gnu classpath cvs head directly 14:10:54 i just found netlogo.. pretty cool program 14:12:00 fizzie: also note that /usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/javac points to ecj 14:15:45 fizzie: i get that UnsatisfiedLinkError if i try to run jtest with jamvm instead of 'java' which is gij 14:16:55 My 'java' is gij too, and I still get it. 14:17:13 Although I'm not sure what I compiled my jtest with, that .class might be old. 14:17:33 note that 'java' needs to be '/usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/java' which sets some LD_LIBRARY_PATH magic and calls gij 14:19:03 That's what my "java" is, but apparently the problem was the .class was compiled with sun-jdk-javac. 14:19:16 Since my 'javac' symlink wasn't auto-managed by debian. 14:20:00 Or maybe it wasn't the problem - I still have that manually corrected LD_LIBRARY_PATH exported. 14:20:03 jix: netlogo seems non-free :/ 14:20:38 fizzie: my javac points to /usr/bin/jikes-sablevm 14:21:07 lindi-: i have much non-free software on my computer 14:21:27 I get the UnsatisfiedLinkError with /usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/javac -cp jogl/build/jogl.jar:. jtest.java ; /usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/java -cp jogl/build/jogl.jar:. jtest unless I manually include /usr/lib/jvm/java-1.4.2-gcj-4.0-1.4.2.0/jre/lib/i386 to LD_LIBRARY_PATH. 14:21:33 (Horribly long directories.) 14:21:41 jix: i don't 14:22:00 big parts of my system are non-free 14:22:20 jix: i find that uncool :) 14:22:37 fizzie: try jikes-sablevm just in case 14:22:42 i like free-software but i have no problems with not-free software 14:22:51 lindi; Just did. UnsatisfiedLinkError. 14:22:57 hrm 14:23:25 fizzie: i'll put full strace output online so you can figure out where our setups differ 14:26:06 fizzie: http://iki.fi/lindi/javac_jtest.strace 14:27:56 Heh, that's a lot of open() attempts when the gcj classloader attempts load com.sun.opengl.impl.GLContextImpl. It tries to find lib-com-sun-opengl-impl-GlContextImpl.la, .so, lib-com-sun-opengl-impl.{la,so}, lib-com-sun-opengl.{la,so}, lib-com-sun.{la,so}, lib-com.{la,so}, and all these in a dozen directories. 14:30:39 indeed :) 14:34:53 I don't see much differences in the javac straces. 14:35:14 -!- kipple has joined. 14:35:23 I assume your "java" is smarter than mine and knows where to locate libjawt when run, but I'm not sure why's that. 14:35:27 fizzie: apart from the fact that one fails and the other one doesn't? ;) 14:35:40 Oh, I'm able to compile it just fine. 14:36:14 i thought you got UnsatisfiedLinkError with javac too 14:37:01 Maybe I should've been more clear. I get the error on runtime, but not depending what I've compiled it with (tested jikes, ecj, sun-javac). 14:37:47 oh 14:37:53 i'll provide runtime strace too then 14:39:22 but only to the point where it says that i don't have GLX 14:39:39 since it takes forever to run on the pentium system that has GLX 14:40:16 fizzie: try to compare to http://iki.fi/lindi/java_jtest.strace 14:41:48 I get the same UnsatisfiedLinkError when I "gcj -I jogl/build/jogl.jar -o jtest -lgij -findirect-dispatch jtest.java ; ./jtest -cp jogl/build/jogl.jar jtest", but it possibly-works when I manually set LD_LIBRARY_PATH=the-long-path-to-jawt. 14:44:48 fizzie: ok, i'll try to compile it to native then. usually i don't bother to try since gcj is simply much less flexible than the interpreters at the moment 14:45:58 Well, one thing I easily notice is that "/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.4.2-gcj-4.0-1.4.2.0/jre/lib/i386/" is missing from the open()/access() attempts to locate libs on my system. 14:47:40 hmm 14:51:40 I think gcj is supposed to set it automagically. There's some talk in http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/java-patches/2005-q3/msg00285.html 14:52:15 gcj or gij? 14:52:43 since those straces only use 'jikes' and 'gij', not gcj 14:53:08 "libgcj", it says there. 14:53:24 Here's about jawt: http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/java-patches/2005-q3/msg00295.html 14:54:41 Maybe I should try with 1.0.41-2 of java-gcj-compat instead of 1.0.30-4 I have installed. 14:54:53 (This testing/unstable hybrid is probably worse than unstable. :p) 14:55:10 oh, that's probably it :) 14:55:29 this is completely unstable and has 1.0.41-2 14:57:31 Right, now it works, at least jikes-compiled and with /usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/java. The gcj-native-compiled (-lgij -findirect-dispatch blahblah) doesn't, but might after recompilation. 14:57:57 Heh, interesting, it doesn't. 14:59:18 As a summary: 14:59:24 fis@colin:~/prog/java$ gcj -I jogl/build/jogl.jar -o jtest -lgij -findirect-dispatch jtest.java 14:59:28 fis@colin:~/prog/java$ ./jtest -cp jogl/build/jogl.jar jtest 14:59:30 Exception in thread "main" java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: libjawt: libjawt.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory 14:59:34 ... 14:59:34 fis@colin:~/prog/java$ jikes-sablevm -cp jogl/build/jogl.jar jtest.java 14:59:35 fis@colin:~/prog/java$ /usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/java -cp jogl/build/jogl.jar:. jtest 14:59:37 libGL warning: 3D driver claims to not support visual 0x23 14:59:45 (That last warning is perfectly normal.) 15:00:05 ok 15:00:39 Well, I don't think I'll use Java for my opengl application after all, anyway. :p 15:01:17 heh 15:57:26 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:58:21 -!- cmeme has joined. 15:58:48 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:59:23 -!- cmeme has joined. 16:07:52 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:30:01 -!- Sgep has joined. 16:48:02 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:51:25 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:40:41 Bye all; disconnecting for Thanksgiving 19:50:58 haha 19:58:35 -!- Sgep has quit (Connection timed out). 22:08:24 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 22:24:57 OMG HAPPY THXGVNG KTHXBYE 23:16:49 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 23:58:30 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Turkey > Strange philosophical conversations"). 2005-11-25: 02:25:30 -!- calamari has joined. 02:25:34 hi 02:32:09 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:34:32 -!- kipple has joined. 03:04:59 -!- kipple has changed nick to rune. 03:05:16 -!- rune has changed nick to kipple. 04:56:39 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 05:00:18 hi Gregor 05:00:25 'ello 05:01:26 did you celebrate the holiday by eating until you nearly popped? 05:01:31 Yup 8-D 05:01:39 me too :D 05:01:49 Hoopla! 05:02:25 need to finish the bf interpreter for Linguine then I'll put it up 05:02:49 (for the TC proof) 05:12:09 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:56:55 almost 80 in here.. my brain is threatening to shut down :( 06:09:49 80 ... C? ;) 06:19:07 lol 06:31:12 MUST ... NOT ... GIVE IN TO TRIPTOFAN (sp)!!!! 06:44:52 ;) http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/turkey.asp 06:49:03 good thing I'm writing the bf interp.. just found a language annoyance I need to fix :) 06:49:09 lol 06:51:33 I needed to do a double deref but I was only allowing one * 06:51:47 so now it should allow unlimited derefs 07:18:22 yay.. done 07:18:47 bf is a good test.. always seems to find problems :) 07:32:48 http://kidsquid.com/compilers/linguine 07:39:43 okay I'm tired.. I'll write the wiki page later 07:39:54 -!- calamari has quit ("bbl"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:26:21 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 11:24:50 -!- jix has joined. 14:02:18 -!- kipple has joined. 17:12:46 -!- Keymaker has joined. 17:12:52 hello 17:13:11 moin Keymaker 17:13:25 hi jix 17:50:06 hi guys 18:00:31 -!- wooby has joined. 18:14:44 hi 18:15:32 hi 18:22:11 -!- wooby has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:46:39 -!- CXI has joined. 18:47:57 hmmm 18:48:34 if i remember correct (which i may not), was someone here making c compiler or interpreter in c sometime? 18:48:41 over year ago 18:49:19 why would you want to make a c compiler? there are tons of those... unless it's for some very obscure hardware 18:50:59 i'm working on a parser for german text adventures 18:51:42 and anyone that is going to use my parser engine for source-code is stupid.. 18:55:09 kipple: no idea, i wouldn't waste my time on that :) 19:06:05 HAH! no one cares about my projects... 19:07:57 :) 19:10:46 you can use my parser for non german too 19:11:02 but it's complexity is O(n^3) so it's stupid to parse long things using it 19:11:18 sorry, i don't need it for anything 19:11:30 i mean i don't need a parser 19:11:34 you don't want to parse finnish? 19:11:43 mmh. no :p 19:11:48 finnish? 19:12:00 it's too esoteric to parse 19:12:28 is that a problem? 19:12:34 www.hunspell-fi.org/ is on a crusade to parse finnish :) 19:12:34 for me, yes 19:13:52 WOW! finnish is really too esoteric (taivutuspäätteitä ???!?!?!(looks very esoteric)) 19:14:39 hehe 19:14:42 "pte" is suffix 19:16:06 a funny german sentence (for english speaking people): die, die die, die die Diebe gefangen haben, beleidigt haben, sitzen jetzt im Gefägnis 19:16:39 well, what's the funny part? :D 19:16:46 die, die die die die die.... 19:16:50 hm 19:16:52 :\ 19:17:01 i guessed 19:43:40 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:44:40 -!- kipple has joined. 19:50:43 if you see calamari around tell him to check his e-mail :) (in case i don't see him today) 19:52:42 i sent him a linguine quine, but since i don't have interpreter here i'm not 100% sure it works 19:56:51 -!- calamari has joined. 19:56:57 hi 19:57:34 Keymaker: just ran your quine.. it worked perfectly! Awesome job, especially considering that you didn't test it 20:00:05 hey, awesome :D 20:00:15 feel free to post it on your site, if you want to.. ;) 20:00:25 okay 20:00:46 is it still a quine if it has a comment giving you credit? 20:01:25 not really, but you can add "(remove this line before executing)" or something 20:01:57 or credit outside the file, for example "click to see a quine by keymaker" :) 20:02:23 yeah I'll do that.. 20:02:30 ok 20:02:41 i'm very happy it works as supposed to 20:03:21 I still haven't figured out the secret of quines yet.. although it's been explained to me a few times :) 20:03:28 :) 20:03:51 i'm happy i realized the secret before reading it up :) 20:04:04 my first quine ever was in brainfuck, and weighted 7000+ instructions 20:04:21 but almost all of that was data part 20:06:20 http://kidsquid.com/compilers/linguine/ 20:07:54 :) 20:11:08 c=>linguine is maybe possible... 20:11:49 that'd be interesting 20:11:51 there was a way to dump the gcc gimple tree (for making a c => linguine compiler) 20:21:07 -!- ihope has joined. 20:21:27 i think it would be possible but i'm not going to do that 20:21:43 maybe a self-made lang => linguine but not ansi-c 20:21:58 yeah 20:21:59 I'm slowly converting Haskell's getLine function into Lazy K. 20:30:32 linguine basic! 20:31:59 well, it's basic :) 20:32:34 bbl 20:34:44 haha 20:35:26 someday I'd like to learn how to write backends for gcc (with the goal of a BF backend).. perhaps Linguine would be an easier start 20:37:31 well I've started the wiki article, but I need to do other work now, so it's missing the program description and commands. Maybe I can just copy and paste out of the spec, since I wrote it :) 20:38:14 hehe 20:38:44 calamari: there's no way to print value directly, without first saving it to memory? 20:38:55 that's right 20:38:58 ok 20:39:08 because x is always referring to a memory location 20:39:12 yeah 20:39:13 then, what two stars ** does? 20:39:21 I've only used ** one time 20:39:28 yeah, but what it does? 20:39:45 I had a value in the cell -1 which was the IP for BF 20:39:57 so I wanted the command at the IP.. that is *-1 20:40:15 but I wanted to store the command in another cell.. so I did -3=**-1 20:40:23 ah 20:40:36 If I just did -3=*-1 it would be storing the ip again 20:40:53 ok 20:41:06 wasn't technically necessary to allow multiple *'s, but it was easy so I did it 20:41:14 ok 20:41:25 the brainfuck interpreter written it is quite compact 20:41:37 yeah I was happy about that 20:42:23 I'm not sure how esoteric the language really is.. but I think it's closer to how I would have wanted Spaghetti to be 20:43:34 yeah 20:43:44 except the multiple commands per line 20:43:59 isn't that a good feature?! 20:44:24 I did that because of the meaning of the word linguine.. and I like the feature a lot.. but I think it makes it a tad less esoteric 20:45:20 yes, in a way.. 20:45:26 but it's esoteric language enough :) 20:45:46 glad to hear that.. thank you :) 20:49:50 ok.. afk then :) 20:52:28 *checks wikipedia* ok 20:55:41 -!- Sgep has joined. 21:27:44 hah, some of these bash quotes are actually funny :) 21:35:17 keyhmm? 21:35:47 hm? 21:35:55 hah, some of these bash quotes are actually funny :) 21:36:22 yes..? :) i don't understand.. 21:36:29 Which bash quotes 21:36:45 hmm, let's see.. 21:36:59 for example this one http://bash.org/?3169 21:37:22 Heh. 21:37:32 :) but, there's naturally a lot crap 21:37:48 people seem to say allkinds of stupid on some channels.. 21:45:25 :D http://bash.org/?112863 21:46:12 Hah. 21:48:34 ok i'm going to do a mini c-alike => linguine compiler 21:51:01 nice 21:51:07 in c? 21:51:12 no in ruby 21:51:16 ok 21:51:30 parsing in c is somewhat ARGHGHGHG!HGHDGHDGHAGDHAUDFIi,sogvfjz.k......... 21:51:39 :) 21:51:44 in ruby i have regexp and a parser generator (not the one i wrote) 21:52:12 i could only parse one-byte sequences, perhaps :) 21:53:29 http://bash.org/?75229 21:56:50 rhh.. too much information 21:56:59 erh, data i mean 22:08:32 * jix is reading c standard ... 22:09:22 * ihope would never understand such a document 22:09:34 some parts are really simple 22:09:43 i'm just searching the c operator precedence 22:11:31 nah.. stupid c standard (me is searching the ruby sources for the ruby operator precedence) 22:11:37 implementation > spec 22:11:43 :-) 22:12:03 Maybe you should have grabbed a language like Lazy K instead... 22:12:22 Lazy K? 22:12:40 lazy k isn't well suited for compiling to linguine 22:12:54 found the ruby operator precedence table 22:12:56 Oh right. 22:13:00 Malbolge, maybe? 22:13:02 ruby > c MUAHAHAHAHA 22:13:40 How about Brooks? 22:14:43 linguine? 22:14:55 calamari's new language 22:17:07 ls -R > /dev/null 22:17:38 pretty well suited for c compiling 22:18:32 There are dozens of C operator precedence tables in the 'web. 22:18:59 yes but i have the ruby one on my hard disk 22:19:02 and i'm used to the ruby one 22:19:22 and i'm not making a c compiler but a LinC compiler... 22:19:40 you won't be able to compile ansi-c code 22:19:49 but if you know how to code c you will be able to code linc 22:19:53 linc? 22:20:03 Lin(guine)C 22:20:10 The precedence for bitwise &|^ in C doesn't make any sense, anyway. 22:20:21 And &|^ is probably a valid operator in perl 6. 22:20:37 what it does? 22:20:43 fizzie: tell me a good operator precedence table 22:21:31 "Good" as in "sensible", or as in "valid "? 22:22:01 the first one 22:22:07 Prefix notation needs no operator precedence. 22:22:28 You can just do the precedence tables the way you'd expect them to be. 22:22:39 And people'll use parenthesises if they're unsure. 22:22:50 '@array ^_= "foo"' in perl 6 will concatenate "foo" to all elements of array. 22:23:00 fizzie: i don't expect anything besides + - * / to have some precedence... 22:23:18 i expect and and or to have some pretty high precedence but that's all... 22:23:32 Hmm... catfoo x = [a ++ "foo" | a <- x] 22:23:42 haskell? 22:24:05 _= is also a perl 6 operator, although I don't know what it does, and it might not render correctly, since those two characters are not ascii. 22:24:15 I think <<_=>> is an accepted way to write that one. 22:24:25 lazy evaluation is funny.. i wrote a haskell code to generate a list with ALL primes in it... 22:25:08 ...And something happened? 22:25:52 i told haskell to print the list AFTER generating them... you can't do that without lazy evaluation 22:26:15 lazy evaluation? 22:26:52 Evaluate just what you need to produce a result. 22:27:45 Suppose you have the psuedocode "Return 3, not the highest prime". Eager evaluation would calculate the highest prime and return 3; lazy would just return 3. 22:28:50 not the highest prime? 22:29:29 Well, the psuedocode says not to return the highest prime :-) 22:29:54 Here's one version of precedences: assignment - (ternary ?: if you want it) - logical || - logical && - equality tests (==, !=) - relational tests (<, >, <=, >=) - bitwise or/xor - bitwise and - bitshifts - add/sub - mul/div/mod - "the rest" (dereference, address-of, pre/postdecrement/increments) - member-selection (".", "->") 22:30:09 thanks 22:32:09 That one is still a bit iffy about the bitwise operations. "a + b << 4" is parsed as "(a + b) << 4", but at least "a == b & 5" is parsed as "a == (b & 5)", unlike C. (In C it would mean "(a == b) & 5".) 22:33:05 i'm going to make my own.... 22:33:19 i have to do more essential thinks first anyway.... 22:34:04 LinC has no function prototypes! 22:34:45 (because there is no need for them in the parsing or compiling task of lincc) 22:37:21 lazy evalution is cool. 22:37:26 Aye. 22:37:44 now to make a lazily-evaluated brainfuck... 22:38:19 Eek. 22:38:27 i once thought about that 22:44:54 jix: you might not be able to do function pointers easily, as pointers only refer to data not to code 22:48:50 * Sgep considerates writing an esolang that uses metakit somehow 22:56:04 Hey, I didn't write the spec for FCELL yet, did I? 22:56:12 nope 22:57:06 FCELL? 22:57:12 FCELL, the First-Class Execution Language (lol), where the basic data type is the syntax element. 22:58:19 sounds like lisp 22:59:03 Not very much like it. 23:00:16 Programs look like [([)[xxx][xxx]]] over here. 23:00:28 looks like lisp :) 23:00:37 Does it? 23:01:09 yes... 23:01:25 Well, that program outputs "xxx[[". Very obvious, aye? 23:01:40 no, but neither is lisp :) 23:01:46 Heh... 23:03:15 The "Hello, world!" program is "[H[Heelloo,, wwoorrlldd!Hello, world!]]". 23:04:18 Hmm, no it's not, is it? 23:05:28 I guess it's [H[Heelloo,, wwoorrlld@Hello,world!]]. 23:06:00 Oh right. The "Hello, world!" program is "Hello, world!" 23:06:19 that's false! 23:06:23 F!"Hello, world!" 23:06:23 Hello, world! 23:06:45 Without the quotes. 23:07:20 ah. 23:09:02 A syntax error in FCELL outputs the junk that didn't parse. Since no character in "Hello, world!" is valid, this will output itself. 23:09:31 mmh.. quine.. 23:09:48 "This is a quine." is a quine :-) 23:10:20 If you want to output something with a right bracket in it, you have to put ] before the output. 23:10:47 Outputting a backslash requires ]], and a closing bracket requires ]]]. 23:10:59 * Sgep faints 23:11:07 * Sgep is hyper 23:11:13 and just talking to heam himself talk 23:11:18 Faintly hyper? 23:11:54 ]]]This [program] will out\put its own source code, except for the first three closing brackets. 23:13:22 struct test { int a = 1; int b; }; struct test2 { int c = 2; int d; } => [[:struct, "test", [["int", "a", 1], ["int", "b", nil]]], [:struct, "test2", [["int", "c", 2], ["int", "d", nil]]]] 23:13:40 * Sgep believes that he is writing an esolang where each execution step[?] will result in another program in that same language that will pick up where the other left off 23:13:56 Who--you or me? :-) 23:14:00 me 23:14:10 Well, that's exactly what FCELL does... 23:15:00 * Sgep 's esolang is going to use metakit 23:15:11 Sgep: pretty much any language can be looked at in that way... 23:15:16 oh 23:15:19 well 23:15:39 somewhot :) 23:15:41 somewhat 23:15:52 Now, jix's program remaps "[" to "[:" and pops "[s" onto the stack, then pops it back off the stack, then pops off all the three predefineds. 23:16:37 that's a tree build from ruby arrays.... not a program... 23:16:52 It's a valid FCELL program, though. 23:17:05 So far, my language is making it much easier to get input at a time defined at compile-time.. 23:17:05 isn't everything a valid FCELL program? 23:17:32 Yes. 23:17:47 So it outputs "struct test { int a = 1; int b; }; struct test2 ( int c = 2; int d; } => struct, "test", [["int", "a", 1 ["int", " 23:17:57 (oops) 23:19:05 I'm not sure what it outputs. 23:19:34 Also, my language is not going to be easy to provide examples for 23:25:49 Why not? 23:26:01 Binary 23:26:19 Using http://www.equi4.com/metakit.html 23:26:27 So any examples wouldn't be plaintext 23:26:55 Ooh boy. 23:30:19 move[time:I,branch:S,itable:S,itime:I,ibranch:S,irest:S,otable:S,otime:I,obranch:S,orest:S] 23:30:38 ^^^ one of the tables[?] that programs need to have 23:30:54 Eep 23:32:12 Forget the irest 23:32:17 err 23:32:19 Don't 23:32:20 hmm 23:32:24 me bed, read crime fiction 23:32:30 *go 23:32:31 bye Keymaker 23:32:33 bye 23:32:38 night all 23:32:41 Byebye 23:32:44 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Funkadelic!"). 23:33:56 "Hello world" will be trivial 23:34:19 As trivial as in FCELL? 23:34:28 Not quite 23:36:01 To have branches reset time, or not to have branches reset time, that is the question... 23:37:10 Have branches reset everything. 23:37:37 not everything 23:37:38 just time 23:37:59 gn8 23:38:09 bye jix 23:38:10 What's time used for? 23:38:14 Bye 23:38:31 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 23:38:40 The first instruction-like thing is executed at time 0 23:38:43 for example 23:38:52 Certain things can set the branch 23:39:22 Okay. Reset the time. 23:39:37 ok 23:42:43 -!- Sgep has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:44:40 -!- Sgep has joined. 23:44:51 Bleh 23:44:53 computer went insane on me 23:45:07 * Sgep abolishes the move table 2005-11-26: 00:26:38 * ihope sends something to this chat channel 00:34:21 -!- Arrogant has joined. 00:43:20 * lament lets his irc client do it for him 00:44:13 * ihope is jealous 00:46:58 Ook! I just realized Haskell's imperative composition thingamajig is "tricky". Then again, maybe not. 00:58:13 Yep. I think Haskell's "imperatives" aren't compatible with those of Lazy K. 00:59:40 Lazy K just needs two more "characters": GET and END. 01:01:57 Hmm, but end-of-list could easily represent this END character, and GET isn't really required anyway. 01:02:04 So yep, they're compatible. 01:03:44 -!- Arrogant has quit ("I AM QUIT HAVE A NICE DAY"). 01:16:48 -!- ihope has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]"). 01:35:09 * Sgep calls his language MKBL 01:35:17 MetaKit Based Language 02:30:37 BBL 04:11:13 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:15:59 Night all 04:55:47 Night all 04:59:51 -!- Sgep has quit. 05:15:06 -!- sekhmet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 05:18:31 -!- sekhmet has joined. 05:27:24 hmm... I wonder if I can change Linguine if it remains 100% backward compatible with the original? :) 05:28:29 I think I can make jix's life easier by treating jump locations like y values.. first it's a number, so jump 100, but jump *100 would jump to the line given in cell 100 05:29:39 that would make subroutines a lot easier.. could set the return line number then the function can jump to it 05:29:59 bah.. gonna do it.. the spec will just need to be amended :) 05:45:44 wish I would have thought of it before.. seems obvious now :/ 06:08:12 amended version uploaded 06:17:46 and uploaded again.. bug, fixed now 06:18:31 this is cool 06:19:04 now I can write something very similar to c functions 06:19:27 by just adding that one thing .. hehe 06:21:41 -!- Arrogant has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:17:24 added a pi calculator and general mult/div/ascii->int examples 08:17:29 and now I'm going to bed :) 08:17:38 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 08:30:48 -!- kipple has joined. 09:37:54 -!- Arrogant has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 09:59:31 -!- Keymaker has joined. 10:39:31 LOL. I was reading an example of how to use Yacc and Lex, but I kind of lost my concentration when they started talking about the "analizer" 10:42:25 :) 10:45:59 hah 11:54:06 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:55:12 -!- kipple has joined. 12:07:50 fizzie: snowin' there? 12:09:18 * Keymaker grabs the camera and goes to take some snow pictures 12:09:19 bbl 12:10:44 I'm afraid fizzie is asleep, but living in the neighbourhood I can say that it is indeed snowing. Slightly. 12:26:50 back. ok, nice :) and cool, in neighbourhood 12:26:58 you know fizzie personally, i assume 12:31:04 Yes. 12:36:15 ineiros: what's your favourite esolang? :) 12:46:14 Can't say I have one, the esoteric bug hasn't really bitten me... yet. :) Though I find "natural language" esolangs, such as Perligata and Shakespeare rather fascinating. 12:46:57 hehe :) 13:12:34 -!- Keymaker has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:29:49 -!- jix has joined. 13:35:24 *Yawn* 14:48:18 Perligata? never heard of that one... 14:48:27 * kipple googles 15:58:11 -!- ihope has joined. 15:58:49 I decided once again that Haskell's IO types are not compatible with Lazy K programs. 16:01:51 But I found a way to do infinity. Just have an 'a' combinator, which takes a Church numeral and returns the appropriate infinity. 16:02:21 Adding a 0 and a + combinator should be able to make anything :-) 16:02:43 And an i combinator, I suppose. 16:04:04 -!- ihope has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]"). 18:40:43 -!- calamari has joined. 18:40:49 hi 18:41:13 moin calamari 18:41:15 hi jix 18:41:39 last night I improved Linguine slightly.. should make that c->Ling compiler must easier 18:41:55 the only thing I changed was to allow dereferencing of jumps 18:41:55 yeah i thought linguine had that feature 18:42:08 it does now :) 18:42:13 (and i noted it because i tried pi with the old interpreter) 18:42:28 hehe 18:42:43 there is one feature i'd like to see .. thats bitshift right by 1 bit... 18:43:00 divide by 2 18:43:04 yeah 18:43:21 i managed to implement it somewhat fast in software (it's speed is log(n)*some_factor now...) 18:43:46 but that code is messy and it's really needed often 18:44:01 I put up generic multiply and divide routines 18:44:16 they aren't too fast, tho 18:44:30 yeah i was talking about numbers like 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 18:44:39 but my div by 2 routine does that pretty fast now 18:44:58 oh and i used your read-a-number routine in my linguine program.. is that ok? 18:45:07 certainly 18:46:04 here is my collatz program: http://rafb.net/paste/results/Qfq8AC85.html 18:46:25 http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CollatzProblem.html (here is more information) 18:46:32 thanks, was just about to ask :) 18:46:50 just enter a number and it calculates all steps until it reaches 1 18:47:50 oh and i wouldn't call my language c anymore.. i made too many changes (some because they look nicer some because i don't know how to parse them) 18:48:16 the most important change is that casting is done in this way int:bla instead of (int)bla 18:48:43 is that for parsing? 18:48:52 yes 18:49:17 btw, does it accept a program on stdin and output on stdout ? 18:49:28 because the parser i'm using is too stupid to get the difference between (int)bla and (bla) 18:49:34 if so, it may be able to be rewritten in Linguine :) 18:50:43 I translated that pi program.. it was originally Haskell, someone converted it to Ruby, then I converted it to Python and finally to Linguine 18:50:47 hah that would be difficult 18:50:56 because i'm using a parser generator 18:51:03 oh.. yeah 18:51:07 that generates ruby code 18:51:16 and the other parts are all written in ruby too 18:51:18 -!- Keymaker has joined. 18:51:32 I'm used to writing my own parsers :) haven't figured out how to use the aut ones yet 18:51:39 auto 18:51:41 nice looking program jix (can't run it, but looks good visually) 18:51:44 hi Keymaker 18:51:47 hi 18:51:58 Keymaker: why can't you run it? 18:51:59 yeah it's very compact :) 18:52:13 i don't have python on this computer (this isn't my computer) 18:52:20 besides, this is old and doesn't have much memory 18:52:53 line 4 to 8 is my fast divide by 2 routine 18:52:53 does it have any compilers or interpreters ? 18:52:59 the problem with it is that it needs log(n) memory cells... so i can't use it in my compiler 18:53:16 that's why i'd like to see that divide by 2 instruction 18:56:00 I'm afraid to add any instructions.. because then it might be wondered why I don't add > or !=, or and/or/xor/not, ^, etc :) 18:56:28 Keymaker: what do you think.. does it become less esoteric if I add multiply and divide? 18:56:44 noo 18:56:48 not multiply and divide 18:56:52 that would make it less esoteric 18:57:36 but a divide by 2 instruction would make it only a pico-bit less esoteric but would make some calculations a lot faster 18:57:44 I can cell the right shift >.. that would be funny :) 18:57:48 cell->call 18:58:49 calamari: no 18:58:49 can a general division routine be improved with divide by 2? 18:59:03 calamari: i mean "no, it doesn't become that less esoteric" 18:59:05 hmm i think it can 18:59:24 computers are using right (and left) shifts for division 18:59:30 true 18:59:47 okay I'll add it 19:00:11 what is that right shift? 19:00:36 a/2 == a >> 1 19:00:57 i don't know what ">>" does :) 19:00:58 calamari: wait 19:01:02 it will be x>y 19:01:08 let me see if it really improves generic division 19:01:11 okay 19:01:31 Keymaker: it's a right bit shift 19:02:15 Keymaker: for example 10 in binary is 1010.. if I shift the bits right I get 101 (the 0 is lost), and 101 = 5 19:02:33 so it's the same as 10 / 2 = 5 19:03:08 of course if it was 11 (1011) you still get 5 :) 19:03:34 cool, didn't know of that trick 19:03:57 jix: actually, I seem to remember implementing division for the 6502 19:04:05 it was binary division if I recall 19:04:17 you have to remember that we use bignums 19:04:22 so it only works on 'evens'? 19:04:33 not it floors on odds 19:04:35 -t 19:04:52 well it works on odds too, it just drops any remainder 19:06:25 i think it helps 19:06:28 you can do: 19:06:31 1000/3 19:06:31 500/1+500/3 19:06:31 500/1+250/1+250/3 19:06:33 ... 19:06:52 wait... 19:06:53 no 19:06:56 stupid me 19:07:02 very stupid me 19:07:09 1000/3 != 666 != 833 19:10:37 http://courses.cs.vt.edu/~cs1104/BuildingBlocks/divide.030.html there is a shift the divisor one place right 19:11:00 heh, i was just browsing that page :) 19:11:29 that is binary division 19:12:17 yeah i know.. but i wasn't getting the right shift in there... 19:12:21 those concatenations use *10 19:12:35 so that part will be slow 19:12:56 actually nm 19:12:59 times two 19:13:00 no a+a = a * 10 (base 2) 19:13:01 lol 19:13:18 there are are 10 kinds of people... :) 19:13:23 yeah... 19:14:04 that gives remainder too, which is very nice 19:14:24 * calamari codes it up for his pi program 19:15:18 and even * 10 (base 10) is easy thats b = a+a; c=b+b; result = c+c+b 19:15:41 or b = a+a+a result = b+b+b+a 19:17:16 yeah 19:17:24 I use that often in my pi program 19:17:32 even did *3 and *4 that way 19:17:53 if you do a+a then a+a again that is *4 19:18:18 you do that in your readnum routine too 19:18:30 yep.. that is for times 10 19:18:55 didn't realize you were checking it out that closely :) 19:19:13 my program is the first one that uses the | operator?! 19:19:18 I think so 19:20:36 cool 19:21:08 okay, uploaded.. haven't tested it yet, lol 19:21:19 oh and there is no way to generate a random number... 19:21:43 I won't add that one 19:21:50 ok 19:22:38 I had a time funciton in Numberix (for random number seeds), but I don't think it was ever used hehe 19:24:12 1[1?,1~10:2,0+*0,2=*0,0+*0,0+*0,0+*2,0+*1,0-48]1 19:24:13 2[0#,5=10,5$,0~1:0,1=*0,1|1,1<-1:3,0>1]2 19:24:13 3[1=*0,0+*1,0+*1,0+1]2 19:24:16 that's the new collatz 19:24:46 is it faster? 19:24:50 yes 19:24:52 cool 19:25:04 a lot 19:25:10 nice 19:26:26 good job hehe 19:26:59 now I need to decipherthat and steal the algorithm >:) 19:27:55 oh wait.. nm 19:27:59 it's not there hehe 19:29:54 dc -e '10 20 ^ 1 - p' | xargs echo | xargs echo | tr -d ' ' | time python linguine.py collatz2.lng => 1.57 real 0.42 user 0.13 sys 19:30:22 dc -e '10 20 ^ 1 - p' | xargs echo | xargs echo | tr -d ' ' | time python linguine.py collatz.lng => 9.63 real 4.48 user 0.24 sys 19:30:37 that's a factor of more than 8 (user time) 19:31:24 HAH i know how to left shift using > .... 1>-10 19:32:39 lol 19:32:57 NOO! 19:33:00 that doesn't work 19:33:02 stupid python 19:33:08 ValueError: negative shift count 19:33:24 ruby knows how to negative shift! 19:33:41 that's what you get for trying to use undefined behavior :) 19:33:57 it wasn't undefined for me.. i'm used to ruby 19:34:03 I should do that tho... you can use a neg everywhere else 19:34:28 what does it do with >>0 19:34:32 Shifts _fix_ left _count_ positions (right if _count_ is negative). 19:34:32 * calamari checks 19:34:34 not undefined! 19:34:41 ruby defines that 19:34:49 >>> print 4 >> 0 19:34:49 4 19:35:09 but there's an error in the documentation... >> and << share the SAME doc... 19:38:24 okay uploaded 19:39:00 I like the -y trick.. it seems to fit with the lang 19:42:04 shortened collatz 19:42:04 1[1?,1~10:2,0>-1,2=*0,2>-2,0+*2,0+*1,0-48]1 19:42:05 2[0#,5=10,5$,0~1:0,1=*0,1|1,1<-1:3,0>1]2 19:42:05 3[1=*0,0+*1,0+*1,0+1]2 19:43:28 is it faster that using addition, or just shorter? 19:43:50 shorter 19:43:55 but that code is only executed once 19:44:57 any opinions on how I can get the high order bit of a number? 19:45:12 there is no high order bit in bignums 19:45:41 not sure how I can implement that binary division then 19:46:04 http://courses.cs.vt.edu/~cs1104/BuildingBlocks/divide.030.html 19:46:25 yeah .. but this line is the problem: If that portion of the dividend above the divisor is greater than or equal to the divisor 19:47:54 I found my binary division routine... it also requires getting at the leftmost bit 19:48:12 i know how to do it without that 19:48:58 * calamari thinks about it 19:57:29 aha.. if the number is negative then the high order bit is 1, otherwise it is 0 19:58:02 yes but that doesn't help if you use that algorithm you'd need infinity iterations 19:58:09 yep 19:58:31 any ideas 20:09:40 hmm the python << doesn't support bignums well ( i think) 20:09:44 linguine.py:291: FutureWarning: x< how can x< dunno.. but it seems to be messing up my lang hehe 20:11:06 perhaps we should remove > again 20:11:14 no! 20:11:23 i'm done with > fast div 20:11:46 but i can't test it with large numbers because of pythons stupid >> i'm searching a workaround atm 20:12:02 oh, is >> giving a problem too ? 20:12:16 no... 20:12:27 replace x << y with x*(2**y) 20:12:31 that should fix the problem 20:12:34 ok 20:12:38 because it works with bignums as it should 20:13:28 set_cell(x, get_cell(x) * (2**(-y))) 20:15:26 uploaded.. I think I may have accidentally put your collatz in the archive last time.. but it was removed this time 20:15:51 feel free to put my collatz (the latest version) in the archive 20:15:56 just add a not that it's written by me 20:15:59 +e 20:16:21 I'll have it separate so it is more visible 20:16:48 http://rafb.net/paste/results/igb2Op10.html 20:17:13 i used large numbers for lables and mem positions because you have to change them if you use the routine in your program 20:17:24 and it is fast... 20:18:08 user 0m0.324s for 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999/7 20:18:28 multiplication is somewhat trivial 20:18:33 can I use that in my pi program? 20:18:38 yes 20:18:41 thanks 20:18:51 all my linguine code snippets are public domain 20:19:43 you may want to remove the last line and do the 44>1 at some other position 20:19:50 because it returns the result *2 by default 20:21:31 perhaps I'm missing something but I think I can remove line 1001 20:21:45 and combine it with 1000 20:23:08 no.. take the case 55==66 20:24:21 and you have to re-init 77 to 0 if you call it a 2nd time 20:24:37 I mean this: 20:24:39 1000[55<*66:1002,66>-1,77+1]1000 20:24:39 1002[44>-1,99=*55,66>1,77-1,77<0:*-1,55<*66:1002,55-*66,44+1]1002 20:24:53 ohw.. yes 20:25:16 i missed the case 55==66 a long long time ago and had to use two lines 20:26:16 i really like linguine 20:26:25 yeah, it's very nice 20:27:05 oh and my LinC compiler executes lines=lines.sort_by{rand} after compiling ;) 20:27:38 but i still have to write the part between parsing and calling that... 20:32:02 hmm I think I messed it up.. lol 20:32:12 100[-5=*-2,-4=*-3,-6=0]101 20:32:12 101[-5<*-4:102,-4>-1,-6+1]101 20:32:12 102[-2>-1,99=*-5,-4>1,-6-1,-6<0:*-1,-5<*-4:102,-5-*-4,-2+1]102 20:32:22 12/4 gave me 102 20:32:46 102?! 20:32:48 '-1=return jump 20:32:48 '-2=a 20:32:48 '-3=b 20:32:48 '-4=copy of b 20:32:48 '-5=copy of a 20:32:49 '-6=temp 20:33:10 I just removed the remainder since I did not need it 20:33:26 then remove 99=*-15 20:33:30 yeah I did 20:33:33 oh 20:33:35 oops I thought I did 20:33:43 well it shouldn't matter in any case 20:34:50 this one is a=a/b 20:35:09 (trying to make it act like my original so I can plug it in) 20:36:00 12/4 = 120, 12/3 = 200 20:36:16 wait you can't switch between -2 and -4 in the code 20:36:32 wait.. i have to check my code 20:36:40 yeah I probably changed too much at once 20:37:48 * calamari tries the original 20:39:04 yeah I messed it up someplace.. I'll try again 20:39:15 remove the a>b condition 20:39:28 nothing to do with your problem 20:39:37 but it works without that restriction 20:39:47 cool 20:40:07 it seems that line 1003 is needed 20:40:17 the answer doesn't seem to be *2 20:41:17 but line 103 does nothing more than divide by 2 20:41:40 (with *2 i wasn't talking about the position 2 points to) 20:44:10 does it work now? 20:46:17 calamari: ping 20:51:36 got it.. it was my silly mistake (just finished :) 20:51:39 200[-5=*-2,-4=*-3,-2=0,-6=0]201 20:51:39 201[-5<*-4:202,-4>-1,-6+1]201 20:51:39 202[-2>-1,99=*-5,-4>1,-6-1,-6<0:203,-5<*-4:202,-5-*-4,-2+1]202 20:51:39 203[-2>1]*-1 20:51:52 remove 99=*-5 20:52:18 you can do *x as a jump target on the end of a line too? 20:52:24 yep 20:52:32 cool 20:53:14 my div routine is surprisingly compact... 20:53:26 i thought it would be a lot bigger 20:56:28 I'm not seeing a huge speed difference between the two 20:56:52 for two lines of pi it took 24 seconds with the new and 25 with the old 20:57:18 maybe the division wasn't the slow part in it 20:57:30 or the numbers are too small to see the difference 20:57:32 that time it was 24 secs 20:57:35 yeah maybe 20:57:51 it gets some huge numbers.. but the numbers it is dividing by are relatively small 20:58:04 wait if the dividend is about the same as the divider both are equivalent fast 20:58:23 a is large, b is small 20:58:38 in your pi thing? 20:58:40 yeah 20:58:42 -!- ihope has joined. 20:58:51 wait no 20:58:52 how does your divide work 20:58:56 that was multiply 20:59:01 result is small a and b are about the same size.. right? 20:59:07 jix: repeated subtractions 20:59:14 dunno I will check 20:59:16 yeah then a and b are about the same size 20:59:38 (it has to be so... if a is big and b is small repeated subtraction is very slow) 21:00:36 brb 21:00:56 yep 21:00:58 812972754127758592775274035577391041579186330552469296119363243600296019639208984375000318537578519104536384176423385561174750764872736614900378433832599380450864237060546875 21:01:17 hmm lost the division sign there 21:01:41 812972754127758592775274035577391041579186330552469296119363243600296019639208984375000 / 318537578519104536384176423385561174750764872736614900378433832599380450864237060546875 21:01:49 some weird char there 21:02:01 It's the A-in-a-box. 21:02:10 in what encoding? 21:02:14 hehe nothing here 21:02:32 but in my term it's a division symbol 21:02:38 Hmm. 21:02:56 I've been having problems with A's-in-the-boxes lately... 21:02:56 calamari: what encoding are you using? 21:03:21 dunno.. I should set it to utf 8 21:03:35 I think that's what I'm using. 21:03:40 calamari: no, just stick to ascii :) 21:04:04 I guess x-chat picks its own default 21:04:40 anyhow those numbers are quite large 21:04:56 wouldn't want to calculate that by hand :) 21:07:33 I'm trying to calculate ack 4 1 by hand. 21:07:58 lol 21:08:25 So far, I have ack 3 (ack 1 (ack 1 (ack 1 (ack 0 (ack 1 4))))). 21:09:14 why not ack 4 3 ? :) 21:09:21 Ack! 21:12:07 ack 3 (ack 1 (ack 1 (ack 1 7))) 21:13:35 I guess the answer is 65533 ? 21:13:40 Yep. 21:15:16 Lemme define an alternative ack function... 21:16:00 ack [n:0:xs] = ack [n+1:xs] 21:16:21 Uh, wait, no: 21:16:33 ack [n:0:xs] = n+1 21:17:21 Grr. ack n:0:xs = n+1 21:17:35 ack 0:m:xs = ack 1:m-1:xs 21:17:54 ack n:m:xs = ack n-1:m:m-1:xs 21:19:49 So I'm computing ack [1,4]. 21:20:34 hey, pgimeno contributed to he talk page :) 21:21:03 he suggested http://en.wikipedia.org/math/2/1/b/21b63e721296a61d600d6bbcce802029.png 21:21:42 yup :) 21:22:19 Aha 21:24:07 because of its interesting properties for understanding how the hierarchy is formed 21:24:29 ...So ack 4 1 = 2? 21:25:02 with this definition, yes; with the regular definition, no 21:25:07 i.e. they are not "compatible" 21:25:16 Ah. 21:28:26 ack 3 (ack 1 (ack 1 9)) 21:31:43 byenite 21:31:46 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Funkadelic!"). 21:33:15 ack 3 (ack 1 11) 21:37:56 ack 3 13 21:42:28 comp 0 x y = y 21:43:07 comp x y z = y (comp x-1 y z) 21:44:53 ack m n = comp n+2 (ack m-1) 0 21:46:21 ack m 0 = comp 3 (ack m-2) 0 21:46:36 ack 0 n = n+1 21:47:08 -!- ihope has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]"). 21:58:38 back 23:19:28 -!- Sgep has joined. 2005-11-27: 00:04:45 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 01:21:33 -!- Taliesin41 has joined. 01:22:06 -!- Taliesin41 has changed nick to KevinN. 01:29:54 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:32:26 -!- ihope has joined. 02:32:53 ack (9 -> 9 -> 9 -> 9, 9 -> 9 -> 9 -> 9) 02:53:30 So I hear it's possible to write a Brainhype program that will check to see if it halts, and if it does, infinite-loop? 02:56:23 because brainfuck is TC, that should be possible 02:57:14 Hmm... maybe someone could write one and post it on the forums? 02:58:34 -!- ihope has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]"). 03:01:25 actually, probably not... 03:06:31 now that i think about it, brainhype doesn't create any paradoxes 03:06:52 you can't "break" the {} instruction 03:12:26 brainhype? 03:20:51 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainhype 03:21:40 guess that one won't be implemented soon :) 03:32:29 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 03:48:43 Hi GregorR-L 03:48:50 'ello Sgep. 03:49:29 Could the alternative version of Brainhype be implemented? 03:51:33 I've not seen of it, I'm not at home and don't have the logs therefore. 03:51:40 Err, I could get the logs :P 03:52:15 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainhype ? 03:53:41 hmm...... When there is code between the {}, simply have run a Brainhype interpreter on it, ignoring IO, and when done, places 0 on the current cell 03:53:54 If it never halts... 03:55:54 It's clearly unimplementable. 03:56:22 GregorR: Not with the alternative specified... 03:56:43 You can't compute whether a program will halt. 03:56:46 Therefore it's unimplementable. 03:57:34 GregorR-L: If the program between the {} doesn't halt, then the whole thing doesn't halt 03:59:22 Oh, wait, I see .... so really it just runs whatever's in {} ... 04:02:11 (Of course, referring to the alternative) 04:04:47 I want a befunge interpreter on a DVD player VM, but the silly thing completely lacks all heap-style memory, it only has something like 16+24 32-bit registers. (And it does all the normal binary operators (and, or, xor) on those registers, which is probably oh-so-useful when all you can do is jump to title number N (or select audio track N) on the disc.) 04:08:20 -!- KevinN has quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"). 04:10:49 fizzie: lol 04:11:18 * calamari suggests the play button on the remote ;) 04:30:20 One can do simple I/O from the registers by having short video-clips containing a single number, and then playing those back in an ordered sequence. But the lack of memory is a rather severe restriction. 04:32:27 -!- bd_ has joined. 04:32:52 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/MKBL.txt <<< My personal notes on a language I'm making 05:19:06 -!- Arrogant has joined. 05:35:26 -!- bd_ has left (?). 05:39:33 hi Arrogant 05:39:41 Hey 05:39:41 What's up? 05:49:55 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/MKBL.txt 05:50:01 ^^^ personal notes 05:50:12 NOT specs (too unreadable...) 05:50:22 And it's nowhere near done 05:56:03 Any thoughts? 05:56:21 -!- Arrogant has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:56:22 -!- puzzlet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:56:22 -!- lirthy has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:56:24 -!- cpressey has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:56:28 -!- tokigun has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:56:32 -!- cmeme has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:56:32 -!- lindi- has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:56:32 -!- pgimeno has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:56:32 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:56:32 -!- ChanServ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:56:32 -!- sekhmet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:56:32 -!- ZeroOne has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:56:32 -!- CXI has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:56:36 -!- mtve has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:56:36 -!- ineiros has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:57:56 owowow! 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13:24:12 but that isn't much compared with MT 13:24:30 MT? 13:24:39 Mersenne Twister 13:24:41 ah 13:24:59 it repeats after: 13:25:00 401905253286302336310524075882315620691881984772785706926626203712386142475312397920568600570024779676881338825986244113351239052923251072964894298041324764667152197507595608912426234357864418091824411586330057869665946141863093669075408727648975046759118648448869552382652510009963247929821784108659705296105115446136682110298092945440999871700665997787829001362565702771561413870308725670672327694754890845839328233974660572797306528790646305422138696 13:25:00 953421669830456914566725163342423408909376719040437562394366174505002702240776846118942006685152787793869924857721928202341120370182281796905369924998191834449779803307606175045017464512722290264734001793201898977068433313657186656111382343558398878830515863014151395916388419359664339721556758243878140965234297840366774744663885561665950791281690041923863361315573392987259286200765857602241981000308373847518919762191244441163264999384252627068372033 13:25:02 763111933980550327534027629016684766185140254468796078835436354368351649215978886270470928451660048312951427468905541138223278914882273249567933713889062224031935413805139845547524008619593826820035713606314057959271250843507832621367887924746386518091551034509831977332030888003937697939028884420167676864318828086560698518626411885386315090235498881811701636151255397071779075040277054989648673189942462029818497132474212455947188692775527087237185159 13:25:07 285590811568299895764642182655379678933841624928789735624686101266822082312651269641096431819119244285586424906522611733370654073363587322562241118375794792204641863670475294474292246969596946939625424745445705551569518210600261983148606395664183203617942963284017811862197413912312554993243967760894843088345345453558909635202751480109693467398530223859606275400533788896904933482341635963009873092800072519775784718634522305851641058860350428723734409 13:25:14 465783733761635505812515964174132520069518882090187528070784131316255311617158576067481328016007555012139598198968935842223544200014498804384934079245514095813239200626816475285642492404879924885373645381534804456517361693374798823490984080501745948314651320031345914976730651979960073639663455753842287970932922599362978717180758402898450916792059614416362424154632339935683280993906592580557520035536539145208631964961604162559243909099550162201200541 13:25:21 471672631326137201415532103096019583120909261804468744780038739084112996375538286284027488435784102137449609286800223753555687919990567435340481755240290277607498175543139914790884517656643197200835111263671941029197734265368431172849344872058242193876826014077933957565416164855051227975133151022507833089361070352161316657271161383352851137068879548299505935412828240732837247696414242779441034794252355403191062065480395091519540873724723403575106334 13:25:28 778762119321672003339440280866230493413016937925959062149095369331265423917515210582163905707952837342344688802796881636671941656836630477110586935364074881632858514937363011998417234225376788375805269112022269520313087790353239316564868842832537899680952926212017677651906238612740832608657999618078048290359428011992699227524026914199805244825657286558393035231894725808402742302969011883433452283242200647862328487302512172034250392866137194030560105 13:25:33 778687406520608632121689650146274195622947884674329435506772711365572438133116905792497645867747401977407239274787144705228582781864687572261213573995264016991868759518545974120341513676822563771002487209436637535104430459326213982153606058542718202626644550745420413475747045005042533456774308703385617977579870024900082543661374474559380983420415482517172007668415904820305998270106312255807070243471996136965997260449112167264107699690234412423447395 13:25:38 751412485882393683682934285368714358137360698128273825121478705374641886644388515859629240250196682286812719529901402217066646212755457520520106456039225376069962370228551948779804054682070886550563475736133679097160940039162605462369232499088528965234298316387788928496019422030861288877732133192380843051003320130591569633154031319643391412814338033297382591195556028259695648435484016352771640485017238431635983821944336722119761018553787092706467972 13:25:44 how do you calculate that number?! 13:25:47 174313737945085434274243842124636297627305078791012909092381415173324566434929087580150769085601728991068098774710981378965960366097338952394567498161562790117523561200066553602210197696066643673044077932497572332289384254392826007687634946646692624097351215512761675552914350269141136950360241936638656691239914642944722040881522059749593399427778490894646105795714192242821626563338695357208232861531404601905556488796698821565663592827061837651085398 13:25:52 714141451488377947321936647854584724449197309257648689992886833833602510587001942847167051478799654202027680038526833442117780938322359165320989777126610382329712863008140208329710041019106708197507613351771250043648529363865103809210936836800486399851875943451238596594984294102060281494270496715405988262168724641148130993418086798761968434504156980407953434701066696596842406280927076168905398064849886617375798772307601582850973655536893324365662798 13:25:57 543029605211676137100879919371781374433526383055549267985159945364042940898560871355096477789687992786023254959148414278324275703077091760517246969630424801588513121008007965383640801367552077318329224874606656014520888406142112822156057722103025817173286991581139323475871036331668228805199013472211271589826088241928166926201134103251802606886197245441864446532161737524150797682448927728213170166254167484512609907951741609138165963904068226247106174 13:26:02 508460595627883667103823785616370812910983804500731206138729340991498443808015978016201002530918857149702932803481398352865790226132299264376246143205641418087767689473261995986735350044161104544930288228165894745359996087420647568603169180537022929978058600979018342652811953308939013780706438708452038056052665263320083478237083749452018379785078399027828461636855545733655124132393420144891490343097763944394018354454966604339945971413594497969441851 13:26:07 18652403114494638117608816547554166036536718641160638647554605691604189678640504837566913017664795312128 13:26:09 GB 13:26:13 hm that number didn't fit on one line 13:26:15 using ruby code: 2**19937/2**30 13:26:17 the period of MT is 2**19937 and one gigabyte is 2**30 bytes 13:26:28 ** is power btw 13:26:29 wow, and ruby outputs that? 13:26:39 yes 13:26:42 woah 13:26:46 python would do that too 13:26:49 lisp too 13:26:51 haskell too 13:26:55 linguine too! 13:27:03 yeah 13:27:14 it's just the matter of writing the code 13:27:14 down with C! 13:27:17 :) 13:27:23 but ruby's number output algorithm is inefficient 13:27:30 it's a simple divide and reminder algorithm 13:27:44 you can write a pure ruby algorithm that performs better! 13:27:51 :) 13:28:00 perhaps it'll change in the future, then 13:28:17 using the mid-divide and reminder algorithm (i don't know if that is the name but that is what it does) 13:30:32 but my prng isn't cryptographic secure 13:30:35 MT neither 13:31:17 > (/ (expt 2 19937) (expt 2 30)) 13:31:18 401905253286302.... 13:31:28 Most sensible languages have built-in bignums. :p 13:32:05 one could implement a MT with a period of 2**25964951 13:33:17 I'm having trouble with my prolog-scheme. :/ 15:03:23 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:03:50 -!- CXI has joined. 15:23:42 -!- kipple has joined. 15:31:26 -!- calamari has joined. 15:31:32 hi 15:32:22 hi 15:32:58 jix: after seeing your cool rng, I added a time in seconds since the epoch feature.. if you use this for the seed you can change line 1 to: 1[0^]3 15:33:16 hi Keymaker.. how's it going 15:33:39 I figured nobody would use it, but what the heck.. why not hehe 15:33:58 calamari: i'm fine 15:34:10 i'm writing a sci-fi short story 15:35:20 oh yeah.. I remember seeing that in the logs now. How is that going? 15:35:54 back 15:35:56 calamari: cool 15:36:09 calamari: nicely, i guess 15:36:19 i've had some fun (imho) things in it 15:37:07 are you planning on releasing it? 15:37:30 not entirely sure :) 15:37:42 perhaps i will let those to see it who want to read it 15:38:01 like, via e-mail or such 15:38:06 yeah, let me know.. I generally like sci-fi stuff 15:38:11 ok 15:40:51 jix: it seems to always start with 0.. am I just lucky? 15:41:41 probably due to the seed.. 15:44:01 calamari: no 15:44:08 the first number is printed after the first tap 15:44:28 look at line 3 15:44:28 3[1# 15:44:44 aha :) 15:45:42 1[0^]3 15:45:42 2[1#]3 15:45:42 3[1=*0,0>1,1|1,1|*1,1<1:4]2 15:45:42 4[3=9223372036854781733,2=*0,0|*3,3|*3,2|*2,3|*2,0|*3,0|*0]2 15:46:38 adding a 1# to the end of line 3 and 4 would be shorter 15:46:52 yeah I suppose it would be 15:47:20 oh and it isn't a very strong prng 15:48:49 1[0^]2 15:48:49 2[1=*0,0>1,1|1,1|*1,1<1:3,1#]2 15:48:49 3[3=9223372036854781733,2=*0,0|*3,3|*3,2|*2,3|*2,0|*3,0|*0,1#]2 15:49:20 perhaps not.. but it'd be good for games, etc 15:49:27 yes 15:49:42 but for games one could use a period smaller than 2**64 15:49:59 I was looking at the timer function.. but it can only guarantee 1 second accuracy 15:50:28 so it's no good for speed limiting a game 15:50:55 and there is no way to controll the tty device 15:51:08 for getting non-blocking input 15:51:11 or non-echoing input 15:51:19 yeah, you'd have to use stty 15:51:32 linguine sdl bindings would be cool 15:51:43 or linguine dynamic linker bindings => call any c lib! 15:52:26 but that is maybe a bit bloated 15:52:33 I don't know anything about those really 15:53:15 i know how to call the dynamic linker using ruby/dl but with python i have no idea 15:54:22 if you can call c libraries, that would really improve your c ompiler :) 15:54:35 yeah 15:54:41 but it would make linguine insecure 15:54:55 yeah I dunno.. I think I'll just leave it be :) 15:55:20 was looking up how to do this in python and its not great :) 15:56:43 btw this ( 2=*0,0|*3,3|*3,2|*2,3|*2,0|*3,0|*0 ) is 0^=3 15:57:11 you can always use an i/o extender with any esolang to enhance the i/o abilities 15:57:19 probably the better way to go 15:57:24 yeah 15:57:37 yay.. xor :) 15:59:46 well, gotta go.. have fun 15:59:48 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 17:54:25 i made up a new quit message: "You can never read this quit message fully in one exact point of time. When you're reading one part of it, how do you know the other parts remain as they were when you read them?" 18:02:02 well i trust my machine 18:02:50 and my reading skill 18:02:51 :) 18:02:54 hehe 18:06:41 I zipped that message: "Leaving". 18:07:08 :) 19:12:56 3.80 seconds to calculate the value of (letrec ((fib (lambda (n) (if (= n 1) 0 (if (= n 2) 1 (+ (fib (- n 2)) (fib (- n 1)))))))) (fib 8)) -- this must be one of the slowest scheme systems ever built. 19:23:42 -!- Sgep has joined. 19:28:18 -!- Sgep has quit. 19:36:41 -!- Sgep has joined. 19:36:43 -!- CXI has quit (Connection timed out). 19:37:59 hiall 19:38:13 hi 19:38:41 * Sgep is superhypoer\ 19:38:44 hyper 19:38:51 hm? :) 19:48:57 -!- Sgep has quit. 19:54:09 -!- Sgep has joined. 21:12:15 Attempting to restart into ReactOS 21:12:19 -!- Sgep has quit. 21:26:34 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:31:09 -!- Sgep has joined. 21:36:58 -!- BodyTag has joined. 21:47:02 hi BT 21:58:43 -!- Sgep has quit. 22:05:58 -!- Sgep has joined. 22:07:48 -!- BodyTag has quit. 22:12:46 -!- Sgep has quit. 22:17:36 -!- Sgep has joined. 22:24:17 well, the first draft of the story is finished 22:28:33 -!- Sgep has quit. 22:38:05 * Keymaker disappears mysteriously 22:38:07 -!- Keymaker has quit ("You can never read this quit message fully in one exact point of time. When you're reading one part of it, how do you know th). 22:41:51 -!- Sgep has joined. 22:53:15 -!- calamari has joined. 22:53:22 hi 22:55:13 hicAL 23:02:17 -!- Sgep has quit. 23:17:53 -!- Arrogant has joined. 23:27:49 -!- Sgep has joined. 23:50:26 -!- Sgep has quit. 2005-11-28: 00:05:56 -!- Sgep has joined. 00:06:56 300[-2|*-2]*-1 'NOT: -2 = NOT(*-2) 00:07:33 301[-2|*-3,-2|*-2]*-1 'AND: -2 &= *-3 00:07:55 302[-2|*-2,-4=*-3,-4|*-4,-2|*-4]*-1 'OR: -2 |= *-3 00:08:18 303[-4=*-3,-4|*-4,-4|*-2,-2|*-2,-2|*-3,-2|*-4]*-1 'XOR: -2 ^= *-3 00:08:39 304[-2|*-2,-4=*-3,-4|*-4,-2|*-4,-2|*-2]*-1 'NOR: -2 = ~(*-2 | *-3) 00:09:02 305[-4=*-3,-4|*-4,-4|*-2,-2|*-2,-2|*-3,-2|*-4,-2|*-2]*-1 'XNOR: -2 = ~(*-2 ^ *-3) 00:09:04 -!- Arrogant has quit ("I AM QUIT HAVE A NICE DAY"). 00:09:21 306[-3=*-2,-2=0,-2-*-3]*-1 'NEG: -2 = -*-2, -2 = !*-2 00:09:53 * Sgep becomes dizzy 00:10:36 Sgep: using NAND to construct the other logic operators 00:11:05 NOT p = p NAND p 00:11:32 p AND q = (p NAND q) | (p NAND q) 00:11:46 whoops :) 00:11:49 p AND q = (p NAND q) NAND (p NAND q) 00:11:50 ;) 00:12:02 p OR q = (p NAND p) NAND (q NAND q) 00:12:19 calamari: is this online somewhere? 00:12:29 probably 00:12:48 If it isn't, I can put it online 00:13:05 I've created a file of it 00:13:13 so I'll put that up in the linguine distro 00:13:36 I did find XOR online, (Mathworld) 00:13:47 It happens to be one NAND shorter than jix's 00:14:07 note: NAND = | 00:14:34 p XOR q = (p|(q|q)) | ((p|p)|q) 00:17:31 it's possible that NOR and XNOR could be made shorter 00:17:50 because I'm simply doing another NOT at the end and that may not be optimal 00:23:19 afk 00:24:19 -!- Sgep has quit. 01:13:37 -!- GregorR[notHome] has changed nick to GregorR. 01:27:11 -!- Sgep has joined. 02:32:04 -!- CXI has joined. 04:25:35 back 04:40:05 cool... 4 nand xor: 303[-4=*-3,-4|*-2,-2|*-4,-4|*-3,-2|*-4]*-1 05:35:49 -!- Sgep has quit. 05:38:01 -!- CXI has changed nick to AMouseXI. 05:40:26 -!- AMouseXI has changed nick to CXI. 05:54:08 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:00:34 -!- Robdgreat has joined. 07:14:56 cya alll 07:14:57 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:41:27 -!- Keymaker has joined. 08:50:03 -!- Keymaker has quit ("IRCAI :: Internet Relay Chat Artificial Intelligence v. 0.3 beta :: Please report bugs!"). 09:14:29 -!- CXII has joined. 09:36:59 -!- CXI has quit (Success). 10:55:57 -!- kipple has joined. 11:23:01 -!- jix has joined. 12:16:54 calamari: i just did ((a or b) and not (a and b)) => ((a or b) and (a Nand b)) => ((not a Nand not b) and (a Nand b)) => not ((not a Nand not b) nand (a Nand b)) (not is done using a nand a) 14:13:01 -!- int-e has joined. 14:26:04 -!- Gs30ng has joined. 14:26:09 long time no see 14:28:28 identify yourself 14:28:38 how 14:30:03 you know 14:30:16 no 14:30:19 tell me 14:30:50 first, state your identification 14:30:57 second, finish your statement 14:31:12 hmm 14:32:21 still don't know... why don't you first identify yourself? that'll be a guide for me 14:32:52 because. 14:33:32 아발발다빠따반반나다발딸발발다빠따따맣발발다뿌 14:33:33 희멓터벅더떠벋떠벌더벌벌떠벌떠더법벍떠더벌벌떠 14:33:34 oops 14:33:44 oops 14:34:07 impossible to see any utf-8 character... mIRC sucks 14:36:07 why don't you use telnet? 14:36:26 my windows telnet is on cp949 14:36:50 do you know how to make it utf8-based? 14:37:11 do you know "putty" client? 14:37:23 there's linux, you know 14:37:24 it surpports utf-8 greatly. 14:37:36 oh, well, i use it for ssh connection... 14:38:02 -!- Freya has joined. 14:38:06 but well, IRC with a telnet client is... well crap it sucks more than mIRC 14:38:08 -!- Freya has left (?). 14:39:27 all you have to do is \rJOIN #esoteric and some others 14:39:31 don't you want utf-8? it's good solution for utf-8 chat - except for ping manually. 14:39:39 manual ping 14:39:56 Gs30ng: get xchat 14:40:03 Gs30ng: get xchat 14:40:13 Gs30ng: get xchat 14:40:20 for great justice. 14:40:30 jix, i'd love to but my xchat is cracked 14:40:41 who's the bad cracker? 14:40:42 i mean, it totally does not work on my machine 14:40:57 get a new machine 14:41:10 get a new os 14:41:17 get both 14:41:19 DCC-send me a new machine 14:41:22 get a rest 14:42:13 lirthy, nice to meet you... have we already met? 14:42:37 deja vu 14:42:53 or are you a newcomer of esolang community? then, welcome 14:42:53 choose the red pill, and you can see the truth 14:44:01 Blue pill may taste Pepse Blue 14:44:08 s/Pepse/Pepsi/ 14:44:08 lol 14:44:33 lirthy, then DCC-send me both. i'll choose. 14:44:45 don't blame that it's not that bad 14:45:23 i haven't drunken any Pepsi blue... i really wonder how it would be tasted 14:47:05 there's a report of brave man in wikipedia... he said it's much more sugary 14:47:27 is that 'deployment' on topic a typo, or are esolangs truly deployed to our society(maybe secretly)? 14:48:18 "brave man" reminds me of something 14:51:34 ok damn 14:51:36 what 14:51:41 puzzlet, what 14:52:23 i'm waiting for what you say 14:52:52 you are on the way to destruction 14:53:50 dude, that's way out of fashion 14:54:33 jal-jara jal-jajira 14:54:48 ok forget it 14:55:01 yeap forget it 14:55:19 i've got some questions about the language... Brainhype. 14:56:39 Can anybody explain me what {...} instruction does? Description on wiki is kinda hard to understand... Maybe because of my humble English 14:57:00 gimme the url and i'll explain that 14:57:27 thx it's here http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainhype 14:58:21 i don't understand it either 14:58:34 why are the citrus placed there anyway 14:59:00 agree 14:59:14 i mean i don't know why either 15:02:40 but anyway i like them 15:03:48 they matches on the wiki... with numerical expressions, with program codes, i think 15:33:37 -!- ihope has joined. 15:37:17 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:37:47 What paradigm should our Esoteric Operating System be? 15:37:54 ...written in? 15:38:14 linguine! 15:38:19 functional 15:38:25 oh i thought language... 15:38:30 How about imperative, a la Haskell? 15:38:52 haskell is a stack-based imperative language 15:39:06 haskell isn't stack based 15:39:09 and haskell is functinal 15:39:23 Haskell's do notation looks imperative :-) 15:39:24 stack-based imperative = functional 15:39:28 listen 15:39:38 a haskell code 15:39:41 (+) 1 2 15:39:50 this represents 3 15:39:55 applies 1 to + and 2 to 1 applied to + 15:40:09 now a stack-based imperative language 15:40:12 but thats just standard lamda calculus notation nothing stack based 15:40:28 1 pushes 1 to the top of stack 15:40:28 jix:It applies (+) to 1 and then to 2. 15:40:32 it's the same as (((+) 1) 2) 15:40:34 2 pushes 2 to the top of stack 15:40:41 NONONO! 15:40:53 + adds top two values 15:41:04 it's interpreted as (((+) 1 ) 2) 15:41:06 And what about all those piles of syntactic sugar? 15:41:14 then a code 1 2 + 15:41:21 is a reversed haskell code. 15:41:47 Gs30ng: haskell uses currifizing arguments that's why it looks like stack based but it isn't 15:41:59 jix: that's the point 15:42:09 it FIRST does ((+) 1) ... resulting in another function 15:42:18 curry style is kinda stack-based imperative 15:42:20 Infix operators! Hoes do those work? 15:42:20 than it does (this_function 2) 15:42:29 ihope: syntactic sugar 15:42:43 Heh... 15:43:15 jix: well i was just kidding... but aren't they similar? 15:43:26 Yes. 15:43:38 stack-based imperative one could be reversed-curry style functional one. 15:43:46 Gs30ng: take a look at imperative_programming on wikipedia 15:43:58 the 2nd paragraph says it's different from functional languages like haskell 15:44:11 well most of imperative ones are 15:44:17 In computer science, imperative programming, as opposed to declarative programming, is a programming paradigm that describes computation in terms of a program state and statements that change the program state. 15:44:21 but 1-stack based imperative ones aren't 15:44:26 in functional languages there is no local state! 15:44:34 and imperative languages only modify the local state... 15:44:40 so they are different from ground on 15:44:43 i know i know 15:45:52 How about using Enigma as a platform for our operating system? It's a good virtual machine. 15:46:06 but whatever the structure and kernal way it has, apparently 1-stack-based imperative one and functional one are similar 15:46:19 Gs30ng: they arn't similar 15:46:36 They are somewhat similar. 15:46:37 they look a bit similar but they are completely different 15:46:43 Think 0x29A. 15:46:48 we can see the stack itself as an argument of function 15:48:07 of course you can try to combine them but then it's neither functional nor imperative programming... 15:48:27 in functional programming there is no evaluation order.. (that's why haskell uses monads) 15:49:15 No defined evaluation order... 15:49:42 well our computer forces the interpreter to do some evaluation order... 15:50:08 Indeed, there has to be some evaluation :-) 15:50:09 but super parallel computers could evaluate everything at one time... the language doesn't care 15:50:54 Heh, right. 15:51:36 well, without any care of classes, monads, defining functions... state a language with reversed order of haskell 15:51:52 Reversed order? 15:51:56 then 1 2 (+) represents 3 15:52:20 Postfix notation? 15:52:30 and now state a stack based imperative one, 1 pushes 1, 2 pushes 2, + adds top two element... 15:52:35 take lazy-k with reversed source... 15:52:42 then 1 2 + is now 3 15:52:49 Hmm... 15:52:53 and add macros for curch numerals and things... 15:53:00 And what happens when you add all that "tricky" stuff? 15:53:11 they look really similar 15:53:24 ihope, excuse me but what do you mean 15:53:26 let's make it pure functional (like lazy k) 15:53:39 but change the syntax so that it is possible to program in 15:53:54 Lazy K's possible. Very possible. 15:53:56 (macros etc but no recursive macro expansion) 15:54:07 ihope: you program in lazy k without tools? 15:54:15 Yes. 15:54:22 yeah ok it is possible 15:54:40 it is possible to write subskin too so well i guess lazyk too 15:54:55 bbl 15:55:25 But I'd like to make it so Lazy K's programs are compatible with Haskell's IO types. 15:55:55 well, i've been thinking about 2-dimensional functional one 15:56:21 Me too, but not very long... 15:56:55 i've found a way reducing all <>^v 15:57:29 I know the apply operator could be replaced with substituted function composition. 15:57:51 i don't think they are needed for functional one, since they controls the flow 15:58:14 2-dimensional flow control is kinda... it seems it's only important for procedural ones 15:58:22 Aye. 16:04:10 Hey: what if the language itself evolved along with the evaluation? 16:20:27 A program in that language would have to have an interpreter for that program before it. 16:20:44 And the interpreter would have to have an interpreter, etc... 16:33:19 data Maybe Maybe a = Just Just a | Just Nothing | Nothing 16:33:33 back 16:41:23 -!- Gs30ng has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:53:17 hasta 16:53:25 -!- Robdgreat has quit. 16:58:34 -!- ihope has left (?). 18:04:42 -!- int-e has quit ("Client exiting"). 19:46:02 -!- calamari has joined. 19:47:05 hi 19:48:05 jix: 1[0^]2 19:48:05 2[1=*0,0>1,1|1,1|*1,1<1:3,1#]2 19:48:05 3[3=9223372036854781733,2=*3,2|*0,0|*2,2|*3,0|*2,1#]2 19:49:03 method was from this page: http://www.play-hookey.com/digital/xor_function.html 19:50:40 hehe cool 20:05:08 all the new stuff has been uploaded 20:05:23 you probably have all of it tho 20:07:19 jix: how is your bf text gen going? 20:08:29 i have one lhs working 20:08:34 but it isn't really efficient... 20:17:43 -!- Arrogant has joined. 20:19:01 -!- marcan has joined. 20:44:13 -!- Arrogant has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:46:22 -!- Sgep has joined. 21:09:05 -!- Arrogant has joined. 21:29:13 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:08:34 -!- Arrogant has quit ("I AM QUIT HAVE A NICE DAY"). 23:51:27 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:52:25 -!- kipple has joined. 23:57:51 wownochat 2005-11-29: 00:11:20 hi Sgep 00:11:28 hi calamari 01:53:40 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server"). 01:54:15 -!- cmeme has joined. 02:01:17 -!- CXI has joined. 02:03:38 hi CXI 02:25:16 -!- CXII has quit (Connection timed out). 03:24:50 yay, the Brainerd book got here 04:04:36 is there a way I can verify that a debian package I have installed matches the files in the package? (for example if one was corrupted) 04:04:52 oops 04:05:33 for for the wrong channel spam :) 04:13:03 Night all... 04:13:09 -!- Sgep has quit. 05:24:46 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:54:37 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:41:28 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server"). 09:42:03 -!- cmeme has joined. 10:44:12 -!- jix has joined. 13:55:13 -!- CXI has quit ("If you're reading this, it's probably xchat's fault."). 13:56:41 -!- CXI has joined. 14:00:49 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:01:20 -!- puzzlet has quit (Client Quit). 14:01:24 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:59:41 -!- kipple has joined. 15:39:38 -!- ZeroOne_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:07:11 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:10:20 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:10:49 -!- CXI has joined. 20:16:01 -!- Sgep has joined. 21:28:01 -!- GregorR[school] has joined. 21:28:08 Bah 21:28:19 -!- GregorR[school] has changed nick to GregorR-L. 22:10:01 -!- jix has left (?). 22:23:44 -!- ihope has joined. 22:59:21 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:15:20 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [CentOS 1.0.7-1.4.1.centos4/20050923]"). 2005-11-30: 00:25:55 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 00:29:49 *yawn* 00:30:55 -!- ihope has joined. 00:31:09 'ello ihope 00:31:16 Hello 00:31:21 How goes? 00:32:08 Good 00:58:32 An exciting conversation. 00:58:56 well, it's better than nothing :) 00:58:59 any comments on my .. and .. and .., oh my interpreter? 00:59:05 been awfully quiet here lately 00:59:13 sorry. haven't tried it 00:59:25 Neither I. 00:59:36 haven't had the time for esoterics lately 00:59:47 Been busy getting DirectNet 1.0.0 going :) 01:00:01 * Sgep currently has negative time for using the computer... 01:00:19 and I who was gonna release a new version of Kipple. guess I might have to up it to Kipple 06 ... 01:05:43 Negative time? Does that produce an overflow and turn into infinite time? 01:06:00 No, time is a 32-bit signed integer. 01:06:08 Aww :-( 01:06:14 I know, it sucks. 01:06:20 The end is near! 01:06:23 But what if you're using one of the newer versions? >:-) 01:06:48 Then instead of the Year 2038 problem, we have the Year SomeMillions problem. 01:07:01 I fail to see that as a problem really 01:07:07 Indeed. 01:07:09 repeat . concat . sequence_ [putStrLn "How to keep an idiot entertained for hours: Press enter.", getLine] 01:23:06 (mmh, xbox 360 ad) 01:29:30 I was going for a rewrite of GLfunge98, since it's a shamefull mess (and I cringe every time I think of it), but then this deadline for the Prolog-Scheme appeared, so haven't yet had the time. "Soonishly." 01:33:14 With a 64-bit signed time_t there's the Year (1970+(2^63-1)/60/60/24/365.2425) Problem, abbreviated to Y~292G. 01:58:03 What would happen if I pasted a ⌘ in here? 02:07:48 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:09:13 What character is that? 02:09:43 Place of interest sign, also known as command key. 02:09:49 Right. 02:09:59 That's what it looked like, a bit. 02:10:13 It was a bit too tiny to be sure, though. 02:10:50 So, a note-to-self: ⌘-H is not the "find" combination. 02:12:08 Oh, thanks for reminding me: I need to plug the iBook back to the charger thing, otherwise it'll shut down soon. 02:23:29 fix x = f . x x 02:23:50 ...Replacing the f with a fix. 02:24:08 So what's fix fix? 02:24:12 -!- ihope has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]"). 03:39:17 i need a string :( 03:43:26 Don't we all. 03:44:32 nah, all you need is byte-arrays 03:44:48 (and you only need one of those) 04:01:46 no, i need the high E for my guitar. 04:03:33 ah. that kind of string 04:03:45 you should always keep spares around :) 04:04:17 yes 04:04:20 this sucks 04:04:25 i'm forced to play on five strings 04:11:40 which is just really weird. 04:17:12 Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmoxie 05:22:19 -!- Sgep has quit. 05:55:44 -!- calamari has joined. 05:56:04 hi 05:56:10 'ello 05:56:41 hi Mr. Glass 05:56:59 That's me, Mr. 2L ORK Glass 05:59:38 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:12:02 I wish Glass could garner the sort of cult following that brainfuck and befunge have :p 06:12:26 jix, following his pattern of being briefly interested in every esoteric programming language I make, was briefly interested in it :P 06:14:12 I'm waiting for the Smalltalk/Java/etc to Glass compiler ;) 06:17:00 ooh ff 1.5 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:48:38 -!- kipple has joined. 09:31:04 -!- CXI has quit (Connection timed out). 09:56:50 -!- jix has joined. 11:26:07 hi jix 11:26:13 moin calamari 11:30:48 my sleep schedule is all screwed up :( was doing good for a while there.. now it's almost 5am .. lol 11:32:36 okay.. well.. I should at least try to slwp.. cya all :) 11:32:41 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 15:46:41 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:52:37 -!- kipple has joined. 15:52:55 -!- kipple has quit (Client Quit). 15:58:45 -!- kipple has joined. 17:44:11 -!- ZeroOne has joined. 18:41:56 -!- Gs30ng has joined. 20:16:45 -!- BodyTag has joined. 20:35:11 -!- Gs30ng has quit ("sleep"). 20:52:41 -!- Sgep has joined. 20:59:27 -!- CXI has joined. 21:24:26 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:42:27 -!- calamari has joined. 21:42:33 hi 21:44:52 wow it's been exciting in here today :P 21:45:12 WOOOH 22:27:55 man.. qemu is just too slow to get work done 22:28:36 I think I'm gonna have to dual boot and use 2003 native :( 22:32:06 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:33:25 -!- GregorR_ has joined. 22:33:43 hi G 22:34:41 bbl 22:34:47 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 22:45:46 -!- GregorR_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:47:10 -!- GregorR has quit (Connection timed out). 22:50:24 -!- BodyTag has quit ("X_x"). 22:56:50 -!- calamari has joined. 23:08:43 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).