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00:15:05 <Aardwolf> my deepest condolences to stux, shame he had to be banned when he tried to help
00:17:19 <kipple> yeah. hopefully he wont be scared away
00:18:51 <Aardwolf> graue really is harsh, I remember when I fixed that spelling error :p
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00:46:53 <graue> hey, I have an idea
00:47:07 <graue> on the wiki, instead of that overkill "year category" thing, why don't we do a [[timeline of esoteric programming languages]]
00:47:27 <graue> then we could add analysis of what inspired what and suchlike
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00:48:29 <graue> I guess P'' now counts as the first esoteric programming language?
00:48:44 <graue> it's funny having INTERCAL be second all of a sudden
00:48:52 <kipple> the advantage of the category approach is that you don't have to edit the article averytime you add a new language
00:49:06 <graue> well, only "notable" languages should be included in the timeline
00:49:10 <kipple> but having a proper article gives more options
00:49:30 <kipple> deciding what is notable is not too easy though
00:49:42 <graue> there are some languages that someone just made in a few hours and nobody noticed and no programs were written by anyone else
00:49:53 <graue> Archway, 1L-a, Braincopter, etc
00:50:56 <kipple> personally I don't see the problem with having a category for each year (at least for > 1990)
00:51:19 <kipple> but a timeline article might be a good compromise
00:52:16 <kipple> whether or not P" counts is an interesting topic :)
00:52:34 <graue> P prime prime, though, not P quotation mark
00:53:13 <Aardwolf> the fact that you just mentioned those languages makes them notable :D
00:53:31 <kipple> I'd say P'' is not an esolang.
00:54:31 <graue> no, being mentioned in #esoteric as an example of a nonnotable language does not make an esolang notable
00:55:00 <graue> and I'm not saying those were not all cool ideas
00:55:10 <graue> but nobody has really explored them (yet)
00:55:15 <graue> so they're not history
00:55:20 <Aardwolf> by the way, I suppose that if I'd suggest an esolang forum, you'd say the talk pages are the forum, right?
00:55:37 <graue> I'd prefer if people went back to using the esolang mailing list
00:55:56 <graue> however, given that nobody seems to want to do that, a forum might be an okay substitute
00:56:16 <kipple> the talk pages are not ideal anyway
00:56:34 <Aardwolf> forums take a lot of bandwidth tho
00:56:38 <graue> they are ideal for talking about the wiki itself, directly, but not for talking about the subject matter
00:56:54 <kipple> the nice thing about a web forum is that people can browse it without being members
00:57:28 <kipple> mailing list archive are seldom as easy to browse
00:57:36 <graue> you can "browse" the archives at esoteric.sange.fi, but they are pretty raw
00:57:52 <kipple> threads and subforums are very nice to have
00:58:17 <Aardwolf> on a newsgroup on the other hand...
00:59:47 <kipple> about the bandwidth: I don't think that will be a problem in this case
01:01:09 <kipple> graue: is the wiki using much bandwidth?
01:01:36 <graue> I haven't been monitoring it, but probably not
01:02:03 <graue> people grabbing the 1.7 MB backup daily might be using a lot of bandwidth
01:02:06 <graue> other than that, it should be fine
01:02:35 <kipple> yeah. I'm nice and only grabs it once a week ;)
01:05:09 <calamari> E!bf http://kidsquid.com/pumpkin.b
01:11:47 <cpressey> if P'' is an esolang, then so is the lambda calculus
01:22:56 <graue> they both belong in a timeline either way
01:25:11 <kipple> how should we structure the timeline article?
01:25:19 <kipple> a subheading for each year?
01:25:45 <graue> by subheading you mean ==subheading==?
01:25:56 <kipple> probably a better word for it
01:26:39 <kipple> I guess a lot of years will be pretty much empty
01:27:00 <graue> well, don't include headings for those then
01:27:12 <graue> I thought you meant a subheading for each year in which something actually happened
01:27:31 <kipple> well, yeah. that's the way to do it I guess
01:28:28 <graue> so should I set up an esolang forum?
01:29:45 <kipple> I think stuff like the works in progress articles in the wiki would be better to have in a forum, and not in the wiki
01:30:56 <graue> I agree 10000000000%
01:34:57 <graue> yeah, it allows everyone else in here to agree 0% while the average agreement level remains above 100%
01:36:29 <Aardwolf> not if someone agrees a negative percentage
01:37:40 <graue> well, then I'll just agree NaN% and mess everything up and we'll have to do a recount
01:38:02 <graue> anyone feel like making a favicon.ico file out of the three-limes logo?
01:49:14 <kipple> http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/wiki.ico
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02:08:40 <graue> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/
02:10:13 <duerig> Somebody should make a thread.
02:10:19 <graue> maybe it can be you!
02:10:24 <graue> who does this, I mean
02:11:33 <duerig> The only thread topics I can think of off hand are boring, "Welcome to the forum!", or dumb, "First Post!", or self-serving "Isn't Rail cool!?!?". Hahaha. So it'd better be somebody else.
02:20:16 <graue> I started a timeline, although it is very sketchy and incomplete
02:21:16 <graue> I can't type the letters with accents in "Bohm" and "Muller", so someone will have to fix that for me
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02:28:14 <cpressey> graue: btw, your C-like language looks interesting (that was yours, wasn't it?)
02:28:51 <graue> I have not had time to learn how to use lex and yacc in order to implement it
02:29:35 <cpressey> ehh, they're overrated anyway :) recursive descent parsing is easy enough to do by hand
02:30:22 <cpressey> you could add a third type, "truth-value", just to make things a royal mess
02:31:21 <graue> how is that different from boolean?
02:32:07 <cpressey> how is 'bit' different from boolean? other than you have imposed arbitrary restrictions on its usage?
02:32:10 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_value
02:32:16 <graue> well, how would the arbitrary restrictions differ?
02:32:20 <cpressey> you could insist they only appear in truth-tables, or something similar
02:32:54 <graue> seems a little non-orthogonal to me
02:33:57 <graue> the bit-vs-bool distinction is based on arguments raised in regards to an actual programming language (D)
02:34:18 <graue> some people argued that D should have bools in addition to just bits, and that bits should allow arithmetic and bools logical operations, but not vice-versa
02:50:24 <duerig> I agree with that argument. Think of the conversions. Often you'll want to convert an int to a bool meaning 0 is false and anything else is true.
02:50:44 <duerig> Whereas if you want to convert an int to some small bitfield (like 1), you'll want to convert it mod 2.
02:52:06 <duerig> What is the c-like language called, btw?
02:52:44 <graue> "bitlang", temporarily
02:53:02 <graue> http://www.voxelperfect.net:3875/esolang/bitlang.txt
02:53:17 <duerig> Ack. Whyfor evil port number?
02:54:58 <graue> what's so "evil" about it?
02:55:25 <duerig> Well, I have to view the page using lynx 'cuz I don't want to make a special exception in my firewall for one webpage.
02:55:36 <duerig> Usually, websites use port 80. or 443 if they are going over SSL.
02:55:48 <duerig> Its not 'evil', exactly. Just odd.
02:55:50 <graue> you must have to make a lot of exceptions... nyud.net is 8090, lots of pages are 8000 and 8080
02:55:57 <duerig> And a bit inconvenient. :)
02:56:06 <graue> in any event, that's my computer and the ISP filters port 80
02:56:07 <duerig> I've never been to nyud.net.
02:56:48 <duerig> I was just wondering why.
02:58:33 <duerig> A pity about your ISP.
02:58:38 <duerig> This looks like a nifty language.
02:58:43 <graue> cpressey, maybe you have some ideas for enhancing this: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Timeline_of_esoteric_programming_languages
03:01:04 <graue> what year was Piet made in?
03:01:15 <graue> (clearly 2002 or earlier, since it was in the 2002 MIT mystery hunt thing)
03:02:03 <duerig> Graue, Why disallow '==' for bools? It is just 'if and only if' which makes sense in the context of bools. Did I miss something?
03:04:14 <graue> == is "1 if both arguments are equal, 0 otherwise"
03:04:41 <duerig> Which is identical to the truth table for 'if and only if'.
03:05:20 <duerig> A B A <=> B (if and only if):
03:05:22 <graue> for a bool, you should never do "== 1" or "== 0", since it's redundant, or in the second case, !() should be used
03:05:30 <graue> so I intended to disallow that
03:05:55 <graue> if you want a == b, where a and b are bools, you can do if ((a & b) || (!a & !b))
03:06:04 <graue> er, substitute | for || there
03:06:17 <duerig> So no exlusive or either.
03:06:47 <graue> or you can do if (bit2bool(bool2bit(a) + bool2bit(b)))
03:07:16 <graue> that would be equivalent to if (!(a == b))
03:07:25 <GregorR> How about an overloaded b2b for that ;) :P
03:08:51 <graue> there are no built-in functions except getchar() and putchar()
03:09:48 <duerig> Wait, can there be bool arrays?
03:11:32 <duerig> Hmmm... One problem here is that many bit-arithmetic things will be quite a bit harder. Many involve bizarre combinations of addition, equality, and other logic operators.
03:11:36 <kipple> graue: the timeline article is nice
03:11:51 <graue> kipple: great! it is missing Piet though because I don't have the year of creation for that
03:12:13 <kipple> yeah. I remember having wondered about that myself
03:12:20 <kipple> guess we could ask DMM
03:12:41 <kipple> I'm wondering about this one though: "Kipple is invented, and turns out to be the first esolang to rise to prominence in which the use of stacks is a defining characteristic."
03:12:57 <kipple> seems to me there are tons of stack-based languages
03:13:05 <graue> anyone aware of a counterexample is encouraged to edit the page
03:13:13 <duerig> Does kipple predate Befunge? Befunge is the earliest one that comes to mind with that.
03:13:16 <graue> Befunge uses stacks of course, but it's known for the 2D, not for the stacks
03:13:27 <graue> Kipple came 10 years later
03:13:44 <duerig> Hmm. Does the HP RPN language count as an esolang?
03:13:56 <duerig> I remember playing around with that a bit on my graphics calculator a few years ago.
03:13:58 <graue> if it was invented for serious use, it doesn't count
03:14:15 <duerig> Ok. I suppose it doesn't count then.
03:14:31 <graue> the intent is an important thing; otherwise, APL might count as an esoteric language
03:14:56 <graue> by the dictionary meaning of 'esoteric', it is one
03:17:41 <duerig> APL, FORTH, the languages in esolang, and a turing machine are all in the same category in my mind. The category of languages that I would only ever program in for fun. But you are correct that the creator's intention is the only way to have anything like an objective definition.
03:19:09 <duerig> cpressey, you still live?
03:20:25 <duerig> When I read the truth value article on wikipedia, I remembered this recent daily WTF entry which was entertaining: http://thedailywtf.com/forums/47844/ShowPost.aspx
03:22:58 <duerig> graue, I like your language. The only suggestion I'd make to improve it is to allow foreach to iterate over multiple arrays simultaneously. You'll be able to make sure that the cardinality of the various arrays are equal.
03:26:54 -!- graue has set topic: #esoteric,.
03:27:20 <duerig> Lets discuss the metaphysical significance of #esoteric.
03:27:27 -!- graue has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - falsebot: F!<false>, EgoBot: !help - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang.
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03:30:53 <GregorR> Let's change the order to confuse him.
03:31:59 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - falsebot: F!<false>, EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ -logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
03:32:11 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - falsebot: F!<false>, EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
03:33:30 <duerig> I wonder if he will notice.
03:33:42 <duerig> Unless he reads the logs.
03:35:11 <duerig> Did you read graue's bitlang document?
03:35:49 <duerig> What would you think about a variant like this:
03:35:57 <Arrogant> Actually, that article reminds me of Haskell.
03:36:08 <duerig> You can make arbitrary lists of stuff equal to other arbitrary lists of stuff.
03:37:00 <duerig> Like if you wanted to implement bitwise-or as in C, you'd have function body that looked like:
03:37:21 <duerig> return a[0-7] | b[0-7];
03:37:33 <duerig> Which would or each one of the lists and return a bitarray of the results.
03:38:30 <duerig> Or if you took four arguments and wanted to return a bit-array of the first two or-ed together with the second two, you could do something like:
03:38:48 <duerig> return (a, b) | (c, d);
03:38:52 <duerig> Maybe not that syntax.
03:38:57 <duerig> But do you get the idea?
03:39:24 <duerig> Essentially you could make bitarrays of stuff arbitrarily in expressions.
03:49:54 <duerig> My paper got rejected! No trip to Barcelona for me. :(
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05:15:50 <Robdgreat> !bf +++++++++++[>++++++>+<<-]>+.>-[.[-],]
05:19:38 <GregorR> Was that the desired result?
05:26:02 <Robdgreat> I don't even remember what it was supposed to be
05:26:46 <GregorR> I just recently started up "The Anti-Smoker Forums" 8-D
05:27:11 <GregorR> An addendum to my already-existing "treat smokers like scum" site.
05:27:21 <GregorR> First time I've ever been a moderator on any forum XD
05:28:28 <lament> treat smokers like scum?
05:29:05 <GregorR> I figure, if society treated smokers like subhumans rather than victims, there would be a lot more pressure to stop smoking.
05:29:28 <GregorR> With society treating smokers as victims, even if smoking isn't viewed as "cool" it will still be done.
05:31:21 <lament> perhaps we should treat C++ programmers like scum, too
05:31:37 <lament> otherwise, even if programming C++ isn't viewed as "cool" it will still be done
05:31:38 <Robdgreat> hell, why not treat everybody like scum
05:32:34 <GregorR> I advocate for treating smokers like scum because they hurt everybody around them. They might as well just have a knife and stab everybody in the throat as they walk by.
05:33:41 <lament> I think smokers should be crucified alongside busy highways
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05:34:59 <calamari> well, I understand the linux boot / shutdown process slightly better now :)
05:35:00 <Robdgreat> everybody has something about them that offends somebody else
05:35:09 <GregorR> calamari: El teh w00t, init 0 !
05:35:18 <Robdgreat> how about all of humanity just commit mass suicide
05:35:55 <calamari> Robdgreat: sounds good.. you first ;)
05:36:19 <Robdgreat> but didn't want to be a hateful jackass ;)
05:36:20 <lament> GregorR: how about treating drivers like scum?
05:36:27 <calamari> well, you're the leader of the mass-suicide movement, so it's only fitting
05:36:29 <lament> you're quite likely to be killed by a driver, you know
05:36:35 <lament> even if you're only a pedestrian
05:36:41 <GregorR> I treat bad drivers like scum.
05:36:47 <GregorR> Not all drivers kill people.
05:37:02 <lament> not all smokers kill people, either
05:37:09 <GregorR> It has nothing to do with killing.
05:37:11 <GregorR> It has to do with hurting.
05:37:27 <GregorR> Because people who don't smoke can't breathe smoke.
05:37:29 <cpressey> duerig: i cut in and out randomly. i find it enhances my air of mystery.
05:37:43 <cpressey> i can't breath car exhaust, either
05:38:09 <GregorR> There's a usefulness-vs-damage-to-society ratio here ...
05:38:29 <GregorR> The average modern car has very little exhaust, less than a smoker even *hahahah*
05:38:43 <lament> GregorR: drivers destroy the environment. This will ultimately lead to death of all life on Earth. "Very little" adds up.
05:38:49 <Robdgreat> you mean a "I-engage-in-that-behavior-so-it-gets-a-pass" ratio
05:38:57 <calamari> modern car exhaust smells a lot worse to me than old car
05:39:23 <calamari> probably because it isn't as masked with gasoline fumes :)
05:39:27 <GregorR> So "I-don't-engage-in-that-behavior-but-its-clearly-necessary-for-modern-society-to-survive-as-is"
05:39:59 <calamari> I knew somebody who wouldn't drive.. they were also a vegan... are you a vegan by chance? lol
05:40:43 <lament> GregorR: and yes, what about meat eaters? Shouldn't we treat them like scum? And people who perform abortions?
05:40:54 <Robdgreat> I'm a level five vegan. I don't eat anything that casts a shadow
05:41:00 <lament> And what about Americans?
05:41:22 <lament> shouldn't we treat them like scum? They live in a country that fucks up other countries.
05:41:35 <lament> And they made a conscious choice to stay in it :)
05:41:35 <Robdgreat> as I see it, if we werent' meant to eat animals, they wouldn't be made of meat
05:41:54 <GregorR> These are the most ludicrous arguments I've ever heard.
05:42:12 <calamari> lament: nah, I didn't vote for W
05:42:34 <lament> you support whoever's elected by staying in the country :)
05:42:38 <calamari> if there were a more free country somewhere, I'd move there
05:42:55 <calamari> as screwed up as America is, it's still on top
05:43:04 <lament> "free" is a fairly nebulous term, but by the most popular definitions, america's nowhere nearly the "most free"
05:43:06 <Robdgreat> clearly, the mere desire to leave the country will get you elsewhere
05:43:30 <GregorR> Or years of adjustment either.
05:43:59 <lament> GregorR: Nobody said it's easy.
05:44:03 <lament> GregorR: quitting smoking isn't easy, either.
05:44:12 <GregorR> STARTING smoking is a choice.
05:44:24 <GregorR> You don't decide what country you're born in.
05:44:47 <GregorR> I'ts not Xs fault that X is an American, but it is Xs fault that X is a smoker.
05:44:52 <lament> have you ever tried smoking?
05:45:10 <Robdgreat> lament: if Gregor can go through life without ever having made a bad decision, so can anybody.
05:45:23 <GregorR> There are bad decisions, and then there's smoking.
05:45:27 <GregorR> It's a whole other plane of bad decisions.
05:45:43 <GregorR> It's like saying "Oh, I see, Gregor hasn't killed somebody, he thinks he's some kind of saint'
05:45:50 <lament> even my health nut friend who religiously refuses weed has tried smoking :)
05:45:52 <cpressey> in america, you are free to smoke!
05:46:11 <GregorR> In America, you ought to be free to breathe.
05:46:14 <calamari> I never hung around people that smoked and my parents didn't smoke
05:46:23 <GregorR> I think the right to breathe preempts the "right" to smoke.
05:46:24 <calamari> the 2nd hand smoke gives me a headache
05:46:37 <lament> i have a tail because of second hand smoke
05:46:39 <cpressey> GregorR: what about someone who smokes on their own time in their own basement?
05:46:54 <lament> cpressey: he won't see them doing that, so he won't treat them like scum
05:47:07 <GregorR> cpressey: I hope they never have a family.
05:47:24 <GregorR> I can't really actively treat them like scum since I don't know whether they're a smoker or not XD
05:47:27 <lament> Treat C++ programmers like scum.
05:47:31 <GregorR> Innocent 'til proven guilty.
05:47:33 <lament> After all, they made a choice to use C++.
05:47:41 <calamari> yeah, they could have used Java
05:48:10 <GregorR> And now you have exposed the problem with that scenario ;)
05:48:13 <lament> My right to use Python preempts others' "right" to use C++
05:48:27 <GregorR> lament: My using C++ does not prevent you from using Python.
05:48:47 <lament> GregorR: no, but when you're using C++ i get sick of second-hand C++ poisoning.
05:49:00 <GregorR> Now, if only there was such a thing you would have a legitimate point.
05:49:34 <Arrogant> Getting C++ code to compile on various platforms is such a disgusting hassle
05:50:00 <lament> how about treating drummers like scum
05:50:20 <GregorR> The kind who stay up 'til 1AM and drum loudly, yeah, I agree.
05:50:20 <Arrogant> They drown out the rest of the band.
05:50:44 <Arrogant> The guitarist is there, but you really can't tell.
05:50:48 <lament> they're worse than smokers
05:51:07 <lament> many people die of second-hand drumming
05:51:31 <lament> it's not pretty, either, as their heads explode
05:51:54 <lament> at least smoking doesn't kill you instantly.
05:55:59 <calamari> drummers -> drum machines -> trance... so drummers are good
05:57:32 * calamari got his .NET Windows Forms in a Nutshell.. maybe I can avoid using Visual Studio a little longer now
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06:36:10 <cpressey> in support of the "Java consumes souls" theory...
06:36:37 <cpressey> just try reading some of the sentences there. you'll see.
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17:43:15 <GregorR> lament: What's your opinion on C programmers BTW?
18:42:20 <lament> GregorR: ah, those are merely misguided :)
18:42:58 <lament> GregorR: that's the dumbest argument ever, and an esoteric programmer shouldnt use that even as a joke
18:43:07 <lament> im tired of people saying that :(
18:43:31 <GregorR> Tell me how it's an invalid argument? Python wouldn't even exist without lower level languages (IE C)
18:44:09 <lament> GregorR: the most popular implementation of Python happens to be written in C. I couldn't care less.
18:44:47 <GregorR> So the people who wrote Python were misguided?
18:47:31 <lament> now that python is available... :)
18:48:05 <GregorR> My I just say that language advocacy is silly in general?
18:49:05 <GregorR> I said it louder therefore I'm right.
18:50:25 <lament> im stuck here with qwerty and no means to change the layout
18:50:28 <GregorR> Also, OMG FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER >>> JESUS LOL!
18:50:46 <lament> even typing "qwerty" is easier on dvorak :(
18:51:18 <lament> i used to know this at some point
18:51:28 <lament> im on linux, with no X
18:51:54 <GregorR> Admittedly, neither do I, there...
18:53:56 <lament> there IS a way to do that
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20:16:09 <ihope> I just thought up a language called "Foobar and Foobaz and Barbaz, oh my!"
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20:43:32 <ihope> EgoBot's not working, it seems.
20:44:24 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls
20:44:26 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} glass glypho kipple lazyk malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01
20:46:24 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls
20:46:26 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} glass glypho kipple lazyk malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01
20:55:19 <ihope> !input zonkmeister\n
20:55:37 <ihope> !input 1 zonkmeister\n
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20:58:13 <Keymaker> kipple: have you seen some norwegian movie called "villmark"?
20:58:34 <Keymaker> (i hope i remember the name correct)
20:58:58 <Keymaker> it's something horror movie, and really scary in my opinion. i just saw it
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21:28:56 -!- Taliesin41 has changed nick to Kevin.
21:29:10 -!- Kevin has changed nick to K.
21:29:45 -!- K has changed nick to Kevin.
21:30:09 <Kevin> why are all nicks already owned?
21:30:20 -!- Kevin has changed nick to KevinN.
21:33:02 <KevinN> hm... your nick somehow reminds me of my own... ^_^
21:33:21 <GregorR> Originality is not my strong suit in nick selection :P
21:33:54 <KevinN> ^_^ at least one knows your real name within an instant... ;)
21:35:19 <KevinN> thought I should have a look after visiting esolangs.org ...
21:36:07 <GregorR> Please, introduce yourself by filling out this 15-question survey. The answers don't need to be any longer than 10pages/ea, so it should only take you a few hours.
21:36:17 <Keymaker> how did you find out esolangs.org?
21:36:47 <KevinN> wanted to see if someone knows my language... ^_^
21:36:52 <KevinN> well... someone does...
21:37:30 <jix> KevinN: are you the AlPhAbEt(?) guy?
21:38:22 <KevinN> yes... and inspired by a phonecall with an austrian... ^_^
21:39:41 <KevinN> by the way... where is esolangs from? or better: where is the founder from?
21:39:58 <jix> graue runs the wiki and file archive
21:40:04 <jix> wooby owns the domain
21:41:03 <jix> oh and the word esolang is short for esoteric programming language and afaik the name is from cpressey
21:42:13 <KevinN> I saw that my description was translated to English... really fascinating...
21:43:03 <jix> KevinN: yeah there was a stub for a long time and one day i decided to translate it checked the wiki and WHAM .. it was allready translated
21:43:27 <KevinN> looking for what, robdgreat?
21:44:20 <Keymaker> he doesn't know yet, he's still looking for it :)
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22:02:25 <kipple> hi Kevin, and welcome :)
22:02:39 <kipple> (and hi to you other guys too)
22:03:06 <Keymaker> kipple, saw that my guestion about a movie?
22:03:16 <kipple> Keymaker: yes, I've seen the movie and you remember the name correctly
22:03:30 <kipple> it was OK, but I'm not much of a horror fan
22:03:49 <kipple> I have a problem finding them scary, so they kind of misses the point for me
22:04:02 <Keymaker> uh, that's probably their point :)
22:04:26 <kipple> no, I mean my problem is that I generally DON'T find them scary :)
22:05:00 <Keymaker> it was visually very good, the nature
22:05:43 <Keymaker> norwegian movies i've seen this far have been good
22:05:57 <kipple> ok. you can't have seen many then :)
22:07:10 <kipple> which ones? (if you remember their titles)
22:07:35 <Keymaker> the one before this was Ni albni, that was very good too
22:08:03 <kipple> keymaker: what? never heard of it... and not a norwegian name either
22:08:30 <calamari> lecture was about turing machines today
22:08:56 <kipple> ah. well that's an esoteric language all right ;)
22:09:00 <Keymaker> i remembered wrong country, sorry :)
22:09:53 <calamari> Keymaker: one thing I didn't know.. if you move left at the edge of the tape, it stays in the leftmost cell, without error (vs BF)
22:11:09 <calamari> eof is handled by adding an "empty" symbol
22:11:30 <calamari> maybe a base 257 bf variant? hehe
22:22:13 <KevinN> *cough* still there? ^_^
22:22:22 <KevinN> (talking about turing...)
22:22:31 <GregorR> We tend to disappear and reappear at random in #esoteric.
22:22:56 <Keymaker> and sometimes there's the time delay; an answer to a question appears two days late
22:23:16 <Keymaker> ..and confuses one for a while..
22:24:11 <KevinN> is a language turing-complete when I'm able to implement a turing-machine?
22:24:44 <Keymaker> i didn't think; i thought there was supposed to read "it is"
22:24:55 <Keymaker> but then realized that'd be rather strange
22:25:15 <Keymaker> (like, "it is" instead of "I'm")
22:25:26 <calamari> Keymaker: how about "...in it?"
22:25:26 <Keymaker> but i realize now what you meant
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22:26:30 <Keymaker> but the usual way is to make a brainfuck interpreter :)
22:26:34 <KevinN> however, is there any specification how a "turing-machine" has to work...
22:26:47 <calamari> or bitchanger if that's easier
22:26:59 <KevinN> i once saw something like <state><tape-value><state><operation> ...
22:27:31 * calamari tries to remember what he heard in class today
22:27:55 <KevinN> I know... that already works...
22:28:06 <calamari> since start state, single accept state single rejecting state
22:33:10 <KevinN> I just don't get it... how is one to work with only the symbols "< } [ ]"
22:33:28 <GregorR> To do a +, you do <}, to do a >, you do }<}
22:34:13 <KevinN> don't know brainfuck good enough to know what >, is...
22:34:51 <KevinN> (I mean, I don't know the dot and the comma)
22:35:07 <calamari> KevinN: bf has a memory array (the tape).. > and < move the head across the tape left or right one memory cell
22:35:18 <calamari> err that should have been right or left
22:35:49 <KevinN> ah... dot is output and , is input...
22:35:58 <calamari> . means output char (so 65 will output 'A'), , means input char (cell = char ascii value)
22:36:41 <calamari> bitchanger only handles one bit cells (rather than 8 bit).. so + and - become identical
22:37:32 <calamari> so I combine them into @ as an intermediate step
22:37:44 <calamari> you could do @@ and the cell would be unchanged
22:39:06 <KevinN> and } is a > and additional a @
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22:39:57 <KevinN> and what are the brackets for? [ and ]
22:40:56 <calamari> essentially while(cell) { ... }
22:41:44 <calamari> where cell is the value of the current cell
22:42:11 <KevinN> so... byebye bitchanger-interpreter... ~.~
22:42:16 <calamari> there wasn't originally [] in BitChanger, but that was an error so I had to add it back in
22:43:12 <KevinN> how am I to keep the whole source in-memory...?
22:43:54 <KevinN> I'm just thinking of how to implement bitchanger...
22:44:35 <KevinN> those while-loops are breaking my neck...
22:45:17 <calamari> they can be thought of different ways
22:45:28 <KevinN> and it is (of course) possible to do thinks like this: [ [ ] ]
22:46:13 <calamari> for example: test: if (cell) goto label; ... goto test; label:
22:46:28 <KevinN> I don't have any goto... ^_^
22:46:34 <calamari> for example: test: if (!cell) goto label; ... goto test; label:
22:46:47 <KevinN> but... hm... let me think....
22:47:06 <calamari> just mentioning that it doesn't need to be a while
22:47:22 <KevinN> the main problem is keeping the sourcecode in-memory... (since my memory is used for the tape)
22:47:52 <KevinN> it doesn't need to be a while?
22:48:31 <calamari> KevinN: maybe I'm being confusing.. that if goto stuff is equivalent to a while
22:49:18 <calamari> I don't know what language you're trying to implement this in.. so just giving options :)
22:49:27 <KevinN> ah... well... still got no goto, though... ^_^
22:49:34 <KevinN> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/AlPhAbEt
22:52:04 <KevinN> we have a tape that has a beginning?
22:52:28 <calamari> I need to get going.. sorry :)
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22:52:53 <KevinN> really tricky that is...
22:55:42 <KevinN> think i've got an idea know...
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22:56:04 <KevinN> (brain)f*ck... so late already...
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03:19:12 <GregorR> It's amazing how different the Freenode culture is from the rest of the IRC universe.
03:19:59 <Robdgreat> Because you're not the first I've seen make that observation
03:20:11 <GregorR> Well for one, they're never out to burn out your eyes in Freenode.
03:20:18 <GregorR> That color combo wasn't as bad as I intended ...
03:20:22 <GregorR> Well for one, they're never out to burn out your eyes in Freenode.
03:20:31 <GregorR> Well for one, they're never out to burn out your eyes in Freenode.
03:20:46 <GregorR> In fact, colors on freenode are rare.
03:20:58 <GregorR> Two, though most people don't use grammar, "u" and "r", etc are quite rare.
03:22:09 <GregorR> And overall, it just has some sort of nonquantifiable difference.
03:27:59 <kipple> $t0p wh1n1ng n00bz0rz!!!! fr33N00B iz teh g4y3zt
03:29:23 <kipple> now if you only add leet to egobot....
03:30:58 <GregorR> Yes, a language with networking, that sounds genius.
03:31:50 <kipple> hmm. l33t is not in the normal language list nor the joke list (in the wiki)
03:32:04 <kipple> which one is appropriate, I wonder
03:44:09 <Robdgreat> Gregor, what was that code server you're on, again?
03:45:52 <Robdgreat> I asked you about it shortly after first coming in here.
03:46:00 <Robdgreat> some hosting account with code in the name
03:46:18 <Robdgreat> I think it had code in the name. wasn't codu
03:49:11 <Robdgreat> I'll find it. question: what's the simplest way to clear a file in *nix, while not actually deleting it
03:49:50 <kipple> cat /dev/null > filename ?
03:51:03 <kipple> it was a suggestion, there could be easier ways...
03:51:25 <Robdgreat> a massive log file put me over quota.
03:51:37 <GregorR> So why didn't you want to actually delete it?
03:52:00 <Robdgreat> I wanted to know how to clear it for future reference, if nothing else
03:52:22 <GregorR> Yeah, cat /dev/null > it is a pretty effective way.
03:53:29 <GregorR> But awesome rox0r C users just write this program: int main(int argc, char **argv) { int i; FILE *fl; for (i = 1; argv[i]; i++) { fl = fopen(argv[i], "w"); if (fl) fclose(fl); } return 0; }
03:56:17 <GregorR> Oh wait, I just remembered that there's a truncate syscall :P
03:56:24 <kipple> what a lot of code to do something so simple. here is a nice brainfuck program to do it: . (just run bf clearfile.b > filename)
03:57:00 <kipple> hmm, no that wouldn't make it completely empty. forget about that
03:57:04 <GregorR> int main(int argc, char **argv) { int i; for (i = 1; argv[i]; i++) truncate(argv[i], 0); }
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05:56:59 <fizzie> open(argv[i], O_WRONLY | O_TRUNC) would be a lot more impressive than some puny fopen(). Although there is that truncate.
05:58:51 <fizzie> And to abuse: main(c,v)char*v;{while(++v)truncate(*v);}
06:25:05 <GregorR> Proof that Gregor has too much free time: I just made a minute-long ASCII-art pr0n.
07:17:43 <GregorR> Woah, #asciipr0n was not a good place to join XD
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16:34:08 <nooga> i wonder when i'll finally meet tokigun ;p
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19:19:53 <GregorR> calamari: No, it did not get me "too excited", it was just the pocket of usual-IRC-world in Freenode.
19:20:13 <GregorR> drew0hard pumpin house or hard house
19:20:15 <GregorR> GregorRUmmmmm ............. neither? I don't even know what you're referring to .......
19:20:19 <GregorR> GregorR.................................. why?
19:20:22 <GregorR> GregorRWell, no, I don't actually, I don't really listen to much music other than the radio, but I'm confused as per when it was suggested that I would send some sort of music or something ...
19:22:37 <GregorR> I'm proud of my ASCII pr0n, but that encounter was just scary XD
19:23:49 <GregorR> At the time I didn't even realize that by "house" he meant the musical style.
19:24:12 <GregorR> drew0u gonna hax me or wat bra
19:24:16 <GregorR> GregorR..............................?
19:24:20 <GregorR> GregorRis now quite confused.
19:24:21 <GregorR> drew0u got some house 2 trade bra?
19:24:24 <GregorR> GregorRI'm trying to decipher that .... and failing ...
19:24:25 * calamari runs "apt-get install libc6" not something you can do every day :)
19:24:40 <GregorR> GregorRHow? DCC, FTP, what?
19:25:41 <calamari> finally got all my prblems worked out.. so now I can finally build a real system
19:26:17 <calamari> seems like I've been messing with it for more than a week
19:26:32 * GregorR leaves for class - see y'all later.
19:32:40 <calamari> lol, it requires me to run a perl script to complete the install
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20:15:15 <duerig> "There you have it folks, all Microsoft ever wanted was love. That and billions and billions of dollars." -Wes Borg
20:16:25 <kipple> well, in that respect they are not exactly alone...
20:17:15 <duerig> Its just a funny line. :)
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21:13:14 <calamari> yay, now I have libc6, installing coreutils :)
21:14:05 <calamari> my hacked version of dpkg doesn't omplain as much as the original ;)
21:14:31 <calamari> ahh that was fast.. now to install the real dpkg
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21:38:22 * calamari notes that packages dependency lists are incomplete, especially where scripts are concerned
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22:05:09 <calamari> there, finalyl dug myself out.. packages seem to be installing without any complaints now
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23:24:45 <graue> I have been learning m4, the UNIX macro language, lately
23:24:56 <graue> it is in a class of languages that are pretty esoteric but still useful
23:24:58 <calamari> hehe still don't have the official /etc/inittab.. not sure what package it's in
23:25:09 <graue> there should be more languages like that
23:25:59 <graue> too many esolangs are still following the old "hard to program in, easy to implement" formula, but since Brainfuck there has been little true innovation there
23:26:26 <lament> the language also has to be easy to learn
23:26:39 <lament> otherwise nobody would have enough of an attention span to try that.
23:26:46 <lament> m4 probably doesn't qualify there.
23:27:00 <graue> I had enough of an attention span to try it
23:27:46 <lament> m4 at least has some real world uses.
23:30:03 <calamari> wow, these debian packages really know how to use up disk space :)
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00:25:44 <GregorR-L> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"So do I!"(_o)o.?]}
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04:30:06 <lament> holy shit i got banned from #math
04:31:16 <calamari> lament: because you're not banned there
04:31:35 <Arrogant> How do you get banned from #math?
04:31:38 <lament> calamari: there's a nearly infinite number of channels i'm not banned from!
04:32:00 <calamari> did you do something to get banned?
04:32:28 <calamari> I discovered I was banned and I knew I did nothing, so it was probably someone else at my isp
04:33:00 <calamari> btw finite == nearly infinite?
04:33:14 <Arrogant> I'm not banned from #sexwithprogramminglanguages
04:33:45 <GregorR> calamari: finite == not infinite
04:34:41 <GregorR> All the numbers between 0 and 3 is (uncountably) infinite.
04:35:07 <calamari> not many esolangs include real numbers
04:35:34 <lament> they might include complex floats
04:35:54 <calamari> didn't know Python was considered an esolang
04:36:09 <GregorR> Umm ... almost all languages include real numbers XD
04:36:15 <Arrogant> And then you meant any languages
04:36:41 <lament> you can't store most real numbers in a computer
04:36:46 <calamari> Arrogant: np, just being silly ;)
04:36:52 <lament> so most languages have a floating point datatype
04:38:22 * calamari tries to remember.. |Q is a subset of |R, right?
04:39:16 <lament> in practice, the distinction between Q and R is irrelevant
04:40:01 <lament> (floating point isn't Q, either. That would be arbitrary precision floats)
04:41:14 <lament> er, actually i'm probably wrong
04:41:24 <lament> quaternions are totally different.
04:41:54 <lament> beyond R it all gets pretty arbitrarily
04:42:00 <lament> you can construct your own structures
04:42:28 <lament> you can consider R as a subset of all vectors with elements in R, for example.
04:42:33 <lament> or a subset of all matrices.
04:47:58 <calamari> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercomplex_numbers
04:52:56 <calamari> hmm does an infinite dimensional algebra make any sense?
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13:32:05 <kipple> hehe. just took a test of my english skills, and one of the questions was: Which of these two is spelled correctly? Weird or Wierd
15:13:21 <GregorR> And our community made you choose incorrectly, that's terrible!
15:28:14 <kipple> both were correct, so how could I go wrong :)
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18:18:49 <Keymaker> my sceql 99 bottles of beer is still not in 99-bottles-of-beer.net!
18:18:59 <Keymaker> i submitted it over a week ago
18:27:04 <Keymaker> by the way, anyone knows band called ryksopp?
18:33:03 <kipple> I submitted a var'aq version of 99bob several weeks ago, and it hasn't showed up either
18:33:36 <kipple> maybe they're really busy, or maybe the submission form is broken...
18:34:05 <kipple> and, yes, Ryksopp is a good band
18:35:10 <Keymaker> i e-mailed one of the team members about it
18:35:25 <kipple> ok. let me know if you hear anything
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19:41:04 <Keymaker> ok, off to watch "home alone 2"
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20:50:52 <jix> i can't remember typing a ","
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21:03:00 <jix> moin calamari
21:03:58 <jix> i can't work on bfgentext until next weekend
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22:02:08 * Sgep will be back in 30min
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22:02:34 <GregorR> Why, Sgep, why won't you talk to us?! :P
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22:13:59 * calamari has added his ESO thoughts to the forum http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/index.html
22:15:55 <calamari> oops my post was too long.. lol
22:18:39 <GregorR> That's a very strange forum script ... I don't like it ...
22:19:10 <calamari> GregorR: it's a bit too esoteric for ya? ;)
22:19:56 <GregorR> +-<>[],. = 000, 001, 010, 011, 100, 101, 110, 111?
22:20:18 <calamari> yeah I think so.. there were some bf compression projects a while back
22:20:40 <calamari> not sure of the exact mapping of bf to bits
22:21:09 <GregorR> Well, if there's no problem with that one, why not use it?
22:21:21 <GregorR> Err, to make it a bit more internally consistent:
22:21:23 <calamari> btw, what did you think of my post.. am I too far out there?
22:21:24 <GregorR> +-><[],. = 000, 001, 010, 011, 100, 101, 110, 111?
22:21:41 <GregorR> I don't know, I can't find posts on this forum :P
22:22:07 <calamari> hmm actually nm.. hard to say ., or ,.
22:22:41 <calamari> although I'd argue ., because . increases output while , decreases input :)
22:23:10 <GregorR> [ increases stack depth, ] decreases stack depth :P
22:23:51 <calamari> Glass is mentioned in my post :)
22:24:14 <calamari> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/kareha.pl/1130879735/9
22:25:52 <GregorR> I think in the last para you got a bit overzealous.
22:26:01 <GregorR> I don't know if I agree that it should change with time :P
22:26:53 <calamari> well, the idea is that it's not an os and shell, they are one
22:27:05 <calamari> so whatever you do in the "shell" directly affects the os
22:27:36 <GregorR> But the way you put it it seems like you couldn't do an ls command (whatever that may be) twice ...
22:28:05 <calamari> well, you couldn't, because the api would change and you'd have to write a new program to run ls
22:28:32 <GregorR> See, that's where I stop agreeing :P
22:29:54 <calamari> Might be difficult for them to learn the new api :)
22:31:17 <calamari> actually it might be impossible, as each probe to try to determine how the new api worked would change the api
22:31:26 <calamari> unless the api changed in a predicatble way
22:33:28 <calamari> there you're immortalized on the forum ;)
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22:38:36 <calamari> GregorR: how about http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/phpBB2/
22:38:47 <GregorR> I always agree with phpBB :P
22:39:05 <GregorR> Sgep, you said something on #esoteric!
22:41:04 <GregorR> Sgep: I like your binbf, better than the one I put above.
22:41:26 <Sgep> GregorR: above?
22:41:40 * Sgep goes to the wiki
22:42:01 <GregorR> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Sgeo/binbf vs my simple 000,001,... one.
22:42:13 <GregorR> Far better compression for repeated commands, which is nice.
22:43:38 * Sgep isn't good at knowing what to say
22:43:47 <GregorR> My response is only two months late, eh? :P
22:46:47 <calamari> GregorR: what's a good division for the forums.. by code layout (1d, 2d, graphical), by type (oo, functional, procedural..), or something else
22:47:39 <calamari> perhaps 1d/2d/etc because that's most obvious to a newcomer
22:48:02 <GregorR> Seeing as that 1D would be the huge group :-P
22:48:19 <calamari> true.. I wonder if groups can have subgroups.
22:48:33 <calamari> actually there wouldn't be a need
22:48:51 <calamari> I could just say 1D: oo, 1D: functional, etc)
22:48:53 <GregorR> Just a forum for each lang
22:49:20 <calamari> and people would then have to ask me to add new ones
22:50:17 <calamari> one dimensional object oriented.. 1d is probably not the best name
22:50:35 <GregorR> Basically the Gregor section :-P
22:50:53 * Sgep saw oo as the infinity symbol...
22:50:54 <calamari> I think there was one other oo
22:52:57 <calamari> hah, and you wrote it: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ORK
22:53:41 <GregorR> <GregorR> Such as Glass, ORK.
22:54:11 <GregorR> Like I said, the Gregor section ;)
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03:15:28 <GregorR> I've been considering designing a non-esoteric language.
03:15:47 <GregorR> But I know I'm too lazy to follow through.
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03:25:59 <calamari> GregorR: did you have something in mind?
03:28:31 <calamari> i.e. oo, procedural, functional, your own twisted design?
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03:52:17 <GregorR> calamari: OO and procedural both as options.
03:52:46 <GregorR> Everything is an object (as in ruby), and generic operator overloading is supported.
03:53:00 <calamari> GregorR: cool.. will it be run on a vm or compiled natively?
03:53:07 <GregorR> It would be nice to do both :)
03:53:30 <GregorR> Since it's never going to happen, I can just say whatever I want ;)
03:54:17 <GregorR> That's the obvious cheat to avoid actually compiling :P
03:55:27 <calamari> and it can optimize for you so you don't have to deal with it
03:56:19 <calamari> hmm .. I wonder if someone did that for java
03:56:42 <GregorR> Main tenants: 1) Dynamic typing (templates, etc, are unnecessary, because a list of ints is just a list of "things" with ints in it)
03:56:55 <GregorR> 2) Pass-by-reference in all cases
03:57:15 <GregorR> 3) Objects have a reference count and delete themselves when that gets to 0 (garbage collection)
03:57:25 * calamari notes that Microsoft QuickBasic was pass by reference
03:57:27 <GregorR> 4) I'll never get around to writing it, so I can say whatever I want
03:57:46 <GregorR> Wasn't QB was "all-global-variables" :P
03:58:02 <calamari> gw-basic was.. and line numbers, etc
03:58:05 * GregorR notes that Java is pass-by-reference.
03:58:43 <calamari> but qb had functions that didn't share the same variables..
03:59:20 <GregorR> Umm, lesse: Like many scripted languages, variables are in a separated namespace ($blah is a variable)
04:00:10 <calamari> you mean blah$ like lin basic ;) hehehe
04:01:16 <GregorR> Does this look terrible to you? $a = [100...2]
04:01:39 <GregorR> Make a an array with the values from 100 to 2
04:02:05 <GregorR> Because I separated the variable namespace ...
04:02:24 <GregorR> The name of a random variable :p
04:02:29 <GregorR> $a, $b, $c are all valid variable names.
04:02:56 <GregorR> "blah" would be referring to a function or a class.
04:03:31 <GregorR> OK, more C/C++/Java-like :P
04:04:36 <calamari> hmm.. C++ is the only oo lang I know of that compiles natively, except gcj hacks
04:06:46 <GregorR> I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with the C++ point.
04:07:03 <calamari> oh, that I can't think of other oo examples to compare against
04:07:19 <calamari> I'm not particularly fond of C++, but I haven't used it much
04:07:39 <GregorR> Java = slightly less evil :P
04:08:30 <GregorR> Oh, other points I wanted to make:
04:08:35 <calamari> C# less so than Java because it's trying to copy without copying hehe
04:08:42 <GregorR> Support for threading, mutexes and semaphores is built in ...
04:08:55 <GregorR> Support for networking is built in as well.
04:09:56 <calamari> did you see the Glass -> Java translator the other day?
04:10:30 <GregorR> It wasn't complete was it?
04:10:34 <GregorR> I thought it was in-progress.
04:11:09 <calamari> looks good except change . to + :)
04:11:36 <GregorR> Hmm, I like the .-style of string concatenation.
04:11:43 <GregorR> So as to not confuse it with adding.
04:11:46 <GregorR> But then, I guess it is adding ...
04:12:59 <GregorR> That's a tough decision ...
04:13:12 <calamari> don't do the lame interface thing :)
04:14:39 <calamari> since it's imaginary, might as well make it good
04:14:42 <GregorR> Part of my dynamic typing idea is that if you had a variable a with a List in it, and called length(), then later did the same thing but this time the variable a has a Que in it, it would still work.
04:14:55 <GregorR> So interfaces are unnecessary.
04:15:02 <GregorR> Unfortunately, that makes compilation really difficult ;)
04:16:00 * calamari scrolls back.. garbage collection. good
04:16:28 <GregorR> Garbage collection is easy compared to this level of dynamic typing.
04:16:42 <calamari> I don't think I understand the dyn typing yet
04:16:53 <GregorR> Well, the only type of variable is a "var"
04:17:05 <GregorR> No ints, floats, Lists or Ques per se.
04:17:19 <GregorR> In fact, let me post a segment of code.
04:20:56 <calamari> new List.. so if a function doesn't take args you don't require ()
04:21:13 <GregorR> Umm, "new List" isn't a function per-se.
04:21:25 <calamari> isn't it calling a constructor
04:21:35 <GregorR> And if the constructor took args, you'd put ()s there.
04:21:41 <GregorR> But in general you need ()s for functions ...
04:21:46 <GregorR> Maybe I'm being dumb there ...
04:21:57 <GregorR> No, I think it makes sense.
04:22:09 <GregorR> The call to the constructor is implicit, not explicit. What you're really doing is making a new List.
04:22:17 <calamari> well, List() would work too, right?
04:23:19 <calamari> Could do the same with functions to keep things consistent
04:23:38 <GregorR> In my mind, I'm still trying to reconcile a way to make functional programming possible.
04:23:58 <calamari> well I'm calling it a function.. it'd be a method
04:24:25 <GregorR> If you don't have ()s on functions, the line is blurred horribly between variables and functions.
04:24:52 <calamari> I think you'd run into the same thing on classes
04:24:52 <GregorR> In fact, irrecoverably, not almost.
04:25:05 <GregorR> Well, the class name as a standalone token has no meaning.
04:25:18 <GregorR> It's only meaningful after the keywords "new" or "class"
04:25:39 <GregorR> (Since variables aren't typed)
04:26:59 <GregorR> I always misspell Queue XD
04:27:15 <GregorR> It's like bananananananananana
04:28:14 <calamari> actually, would it be a bad thing to blur variables and functions?
04:28:22 <calamari> you could pass a variable or pass a function
04:29:03 <GregorR> Passing a function would be nice ...
04:29:19 <GregorR> But that goes back to my original thing of () vs no (). You would pass a function by not putting a () on it.
04:29:45 <calamari> right but then whats wrong with a = myFunction
04:29:56 <GregorR> Nothing - so long as that doesn't call myFunction.
04:30:03 <GregorR> In fact, I like that - so long as it doesn't call myFunction.
04:30:10 <calamari> actually that'd make sense as a function pointer
04:31:56 <calamari> you can still have real functions by saying func(tion) rather than method
04:32:21 <calamari> it'd be like public static in java
04:33:10 <GregorR> I would rather /not/ make a big distinction between functions and methods.
04:33:19 <GregorR> (/me writes a snippet of code)
04:34:06 <GregorR> Lemme backtrack for a sec.
04:34:13 <GregorR> Should constructors be named the same as the function?
04:34:27 <GregorR> Or something more meaningful, like "Cons"
04:34:35 <calamari> well the default one should be at least, so you could nest new calls
04:35:17 <GregorR> That has nothing to do with the name of the constructor ...
04:35:50 <GregorR> The name of the constructor is totally arbitrary, I just don't really like that it's always named after the class, seems like a more descriptive name would be better.
04:35:58 <calamari> yeah I always thought using the name of the class was a little clinky
04:37:10 <calamari> public () { ... } .. seems obfuscated
04:37:34 <GregorR> Yeah, I'm doing public the java way.
04:37:45 <GregorR> Not sure what you just said :P
04:38:20 <calamari> (java for a moment) public class A { public A() { } }
04:38:30 <calamari> vs public class A { public () { } }
04:38:46 <GregorR> http://pastebin.ca/27570 < how does this look to you?
04:38:49 <calamari> just seeing what it would look liek with no label
04:39:16 <GregorR> Heheh, borrowed C++ style class definitions :P
04:39:21 <GregorR> Don't like Java-style inline definitions.
04:39:33 <calamari> what is it equivalent to in Java ?
04:40:09 <calamari> if you're going to say func.. say class too hehe
04:41:28 <calamari> I think it's appropriate that the class encloses all its methods
04:41:33 <GregorR> Oh, that codes a bit funky, wait.
04:43:03 <calamari> is it a c++ thing to move the methods outside the class and use :: ?
04:43:26 <GregorR> Because the class definition just tells you information about the class.
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04:43:53 <calamari> but a class encloses the methods it contains, so it seems nice to show that
04:44:10 <calamari> how does c++ handle nested classes ?
04:44:12 <GregorR> Anybody else present to tie-break?
04:44:23 <GregorR> Hmm ... does C++ support subclasses?
04:44:57 <calamari> in Java/C# it's as simple as aanother class definition nested inside the parent
04:45:31 <GregorR> And on the one hand I like it, and on the other hand I don't.
04:45:57 <calamari> I really only use them when coding Swing
04:46:09 <calamari> because of all the event handling
04:46:39 <GregorR> OK, yes, it supports nested classes.
04:46:47 <GregorR> And it's simply SuperClass::SubClass::Function
04:47:14 <GregorR> I /STILL/ find it better to have the class declaration function-content-free.
04:47:57 <GregorR> Merely so that you can look at the top of a file and see all the interfaces to your class, instantly.
04:48:04 <GregorR> Without needing to dig around the functions.
04:56:55 <calamari> GregorR: you should do it your way since it's your lang ;)
04:57:10 <calamari> I find SuperClass::SubClass::Function hard to understand tho hehe
04:57:31 <calamari> and it's all imaginary anyways so who cares ;)
04:57:39 <GregorR> Which is why I want a tie-breaker :-P
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05:00:40 <calamari> where do you put class variables.. just anywhere outside a method?
05:02:00 <GregorR> Forgot I was in Dvorak :-P
05:02:02 <calamari> nm.. thought I had something but it was bad
05:02:39 <GregorR> Anyway, yeah, class variables just go in the class.
05:03:19 <GregorR> Thats what constructors are for ...
05:03:42 <calamari> but if its a private constructor
05:05:02 <GregorR> http://pastebin.ca/27572 < Break this tie!
05:05:12 <calamari> 2) control contruction of your class.. you can have them call a method and it can return a new instance or an old one, or even null if it wants to
05:05:37 <calamari> I think it's called the singleton pattern
05:06:04 <GregorR> I don't see how it would be useful :P
05:06:17 <GregorR> Do C++ and Java support private constructors?
05:06:20 <lament> it's like having a constant.
05:07:21 <calamari> GregorR: look up singleton and factory design patterns
05:10:38 <calamari> how does c++ do abstract classes
05:11:12 <GregorR> It's really unintuitive >_>
05:12:16 <GregorR> Really, abstract classes and interfaces in C++ are just classes with functions defined to nothing.
05:12:24 <GregorR> Then you subclass them and define those classes.
05:13:08 <calamari> I remember when I was first trying to learn oo programming, someone was trying to show me c++, but it really confused me.. Java seemed to make sense automatically. So it could just be different ways our brains folded hehe
05:13:57 * GregorR finally sort of figured out what private constructors are for.
05:14:59 <lament> c++ and java are not all that different
05:15:11 <GregorR> It's mostly syntactic sugar.
05:15:39 <calamari> Java has a great class library
05:16:52 <GregorR> You know, I still don't see anything that a singleton class can do that you can't do less obtusely by other means.
05:18:27 <GregorR> Having this bizarre class with a static member of its own type and a private constructor ... yukk.
05:19:04 <GregorR> How about a means of producing singleton classes that isn't so obtuse?
05:20:02 <calamari> or just skip the whole oo thing ;)
05:20:22 <GregorR> Really, I guess, if you're using a singleton class, it's hardly even OO :P
05:20:33 <GregorR> It's more like a namespace than a class.
05:22:53 <GregorR> calamari: Let's cooperate on the construction of the compiler - and since I don't and won't write Java, and you don't and won't write C++, we can write it in Perl ;)
05:23:41 <calamari> I have the feeling that would degenerate into a perl golf
05:24:38 <calamari> btw I would write C++, I just don't know it..
05:25:22 <calamari> I used to be a language snob, then I realized how much I liked Java and had to give up
05:25:45 <GregorR> What language were you snobby towards?
05:26:10 <calamari> and anything that wasn't compiled generally
05:26:41 <calamari> I wrote programs in asm rather than dos batch files
05:27:35 <calamari> I still can't quite shake the same feeling when watching linux boot up.. too many scripts
05:27:36 <GregorR> So you mean anything that /was/ compiled?
05:28:15 <GregorR> I think we have reverse definitions of "snobby towards"
05:28:23 <GregorR> Since it's a meaningless phrase.
05:29:12 <calamari> I have a poor vocabulary... just one of those things
05:30:00 <calamari> so you never have to worry about me running for a public office
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05:30:38 <calamari> hmm but there's bush.. blows away that theory
05:31:09 <GregorR> calamariI have a poor vocabulary... just one of those things
05:31:11 <GregorR> calamariso you never have to worry about me running for a public office
05:31:26 <GregorR> Arrogant: Tie-break this: http://pastebin.ca/27572
05:31:48 <Arrogant> Hell, the people like idiots because they can feel they're on the same level
05:32:17 <calamari> actually as president you just need to be good at reading what someone else wrote hehe
05:32:35 <calamari> not likethey write their own speeches
05:33:08 <Arrogant> GregorR: I nest functions in the class definition
05:33:17 <Arrogant> It's something I picked up from Python
05:33:32 <Arrogant> Javascript doesn't let you do it at all
05:33:52 <GregorR> Thanks - trying to write a non-obfuscated language :P
05:35:17 <GregorR> Trying to strike a nice balance between C++ and Java and others.
05:35:30 <GregorR> And also be dynamically typed.
05:35:51 <Arrogant> I don't see a need for public and private data
05:36:13 <GregorR> Arrogant's opinion no longer matters :P
05:36:39 <GregorR> The division between public and private data is as old as programming itself!
05:36:56 <Arrogant> War is as old as civilization itself
05:37:28 <Arrogant> Give me a good reason that you'd want it.
05:37:47 <GregorR> It's mostly to keep programmers from being idiots XD
05:38:00 <Arrogant> Programmers will find other ways to be idiots
05:38:19 <Arrogant> You're just putting up a safety fence
05:40:14 <calamari> then down with the public private
05:40:20 <GregorR> Err, wait, I totally f'd up that code.
05:40:23 <GregorR> Ignore that previous link.
05:41:25 <GregorR> (Also I took out public/private)
05:41:35 <GregorR> Oh wait, I failed to take out public/private XD
05:41:41 <GregorR> Ignore the word "private" in there ;)
05:42:43 <Arrogant> http://livelogix.net/tom/blog/?p=20#more-20
05:42:54 <Arrogant> Although it's got an obvious syntax problem it's got potential
05:43:22 <Arrogant> (It uses <- for return, what's to keep <- x from being < -x
05:44:43 <GregorR> I barely condone breaking at all :P
05:46:05 <GregorR> However, a function ought to have multiple exit points, but (IMHO), a loop ought not to.
05:46:21 <GregorR> A function should give back its results whenever they become available. A loop ... isn't a function.
05:46:24 <calamari> although I have to say that I don't miss goto much in Java.
05:46:35 <Arrogant> A function doesn't have to be special.
05:47:08 <GregorR> Regardless of syntax, loops are not functions. Even if they were syntactically the same, loops are still not conceptually functions.
05:47:22 <GregorR> That being said, I break now and then myself ;)
05:47:35 <Arrogant> They're blocks that operate in a special way.
05:47:39 <calamari> I think I continue more than I break
05:47:40 <Arrogant> A function is also a block that operates in a special way.
05:47:57 <Arrogant> The article seeks to unite them
05:48:23 <Arrogant> Logix is a really cool project but it's not going anywhere. There are some really good ideas in there though
06:04:43 <lament> they're like functions, but they're loops!
06:05:51 <Arrogant> Too bad most languages suck at tail-calling
06:07:18 <lament> s/languages/implementations
06:16:05 <GregorR> http://www.bash.org/?60297
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07:06:21 <Arrogant> damn we totally missed some good cybering there
07:06:25 <GregorR> That was almost suggestive of female-ness ...
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07:08:41 <Blonde_19> http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://free-sex-pictures-gallery.org/gallery/teen/1013.jpg&imgrefurl=http://free-sex-pictures-gallery.org/gallery/teen/&h=700&w=525&sz=24&tbnid=AfkJCM11d3IJ:&tbnh=138&tbnw=103&hl=en&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dnude%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN (NSFW)
07:09:03 <Blonde_19> http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:AfkJCM11d3IJ:free-sex-pictures-gallery.org/gallery/teen/1013.jpg rather XD
07:09:41 <Blonde_19> Damn, wasn't paying attn to detail.
07:09:53 <Blonde_19> http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:m5LDc0ylbIcJ:www.nudistpicturegallery.com/thin_blonde_woman_nude.jpg
07:10:52 <Blonde_19> What does that have to do with cybering :P
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07:11:54 <Arrogant> Really though. How hard would it be to make downloads that you could pause and resume over sessions
07:12:00 <Arrogant> You can already pause them in the middle of a session
07:12:51 <GregorR> Yeah, something like getright would be a welcome addition.
07:13:46 <Arrogant> Something like GetRight without the crap that comes with GetRight
07:15:01 <Arrogant> HydraIRC is alright but it lacks scripting
07:15:10 <Arrogant> But it's scripting is Javascript
07:15:18 <Arrogant> mIRC has scripting but it also sucks
07:15:30 <GregorR> Javascript is not nice :-P
07:15:44 <Arrogant> But it is better than mIRC's sorry excuse
07:15:58 <GregorR> How about I write an IRC client scriptable in Glass? :)
07:16:37 <Arrogant> But sucks in almost every other way
07:16:54 <Arrogant> It's alright for Linux but the Windows port...
07:21:07 <Arrogant> I'll probably drag my PC over to a friends house and do a full apt-get upgrade
07:39:28 <Arrogant> You know, with Firefox 2, Chatzilla will have Python scripting.
07:42:56 <GregorR> With that, it's time for me to sleep :-P
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13:12:07 <Keymaker> Arrogant: use opera, opera's download manager is pretty good
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13:55:09 <Keymaker> anyways, it's time for me to go.. bbl.
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14:33:17 <jix> moin calamari
14:35:51 <jix> i have much spare time now => developing bfgentext
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22:12:39 * jix is learning a lot about c++ and stl
22:13:04 <jix> bfgentext is a good project to learn how to do things in c++
22:17:15 <calamari> lament: c++ is an esoteric language ;)
22:17:45 <jix> because i need high speed
22:18:14 <jix> i implemented the thing in ruby to check if it works.. now i'm reimplementing it in c++ to make it fast enough
22:22:38 <calamari> what does it find for the hello world test
22:23:08 <jix> i'm still doing the rhs no lhs yet
23:17:56 <GregorR> jix ... come to the dark side ... use C++ >: )
23:18:06 <GregorR> (That's how I got 'im to use C++)
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23:56:52 <jix> !bf8 >>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<+++++++++++++++.<++++++++++.
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01:49:51 <KevinN> wow... a brainfuck-interpreter for IRC...
01:51:20 <KevinN> !bf32 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
01:51:50 <KevinN> !bf32 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
01:52:40 <KevinN> !bf32 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
01:52:51 <KevinN> !bf32 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
01:53:01 <KevinN> !bf32 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
01:53:21 <lament> KevinN: bf is far from the only language available.
01:56:50 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls
01:56:52 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} glass glypho kipple lazyk malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01
01:57:00 <calamari> hmm wiki writing seems to be messed up
01:58:16 <lament> where's the output? :(
02:00:43 <KevinN> seems it doesn't work... somehow...
02:00:53 <calamari> hrm.. can't modify my user page.. bummer
02:01:19 <lament> at least falsebot works :)
02:01:37 <lament> F!"False is clearly the best"
02:02:12 <calamari> lament: what languages have you invented? I have a bad memory
02:02:22 <lament> calamari: prelude and fugue
02:02:48 <lament> well, and BEST, and a couple of joke ones.
02:03:39 <KevinN> wow... more'n 4 already... :O
02:03:52 <lament> i didn't invent smallf* :)
02:04:10 <lament> but that hardly qualifies as "invent"
02:04:35 <KevinN> well... better than nothing at all... ;)
02:04:38 <calamari> btchanger barely, because of the combination of commands
02:04:53 <calamari> I should just modify the timeline and see if anyone complains
02:05:51 <KevinN> talking of which... I'm going to write a btchanger-to-AlPhAbEt-compiler (in AlPhAbEt) to prove its turing-completeness...
02:06:15 <KevinN> it's much easier to do it that way than write an btchanger-interpreter...
02:08:08 <lament> KevinN: prove the turing-completeness of what?
02:08:30 <KevinN> of AlPhAbEt itself... ;)
02:09:23 <KevinN> (since btchanger is turing-complete, and since every btchanger-source can be translated to an equivalent AlPhAbEt-source, AlPhAbEt is turing-complete, too)...
02:09:47 <KevinN> at least that's the idea...
02:12:41 <lament> seems pretty straightforwardly TC
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02:14:55 <KevinN> jupp... so, I don't need to think about how to prove turing-completeness, but implement an already turing-proven language...
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02:16:41 <lament> should be fore fun, too
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02:19:30 <KevinN> well... that's the cool thing about ABC... it's not fun using it... ^_^
02:19:38 <KevinN> well... maybe a bit...
02:20:33 <KevinN> however, time doesn't go by so fast... so you can solve more complex problems...
02:20:45 <KevinN> (really don't know, how this works, but it does)
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04:58:09 <calamari> maybe I should use the nifty new forum for it
05:21:24 * calamari notes that it's hard to come up with good categories for esolangs that don't overlap
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05:23:12 <duerig> !rail http://pastebin.ca/raw/27689
05:23:55 <duerig> But it isn't done yet.
05:25:08 <duerig> Except that it runs pretty much instantaneously on my computer.
05:25:37 <duerig> Could the EgoBot be lagged down for some reason?
05:25:49 <duerig> Anyhow, check out the code for that.
05:25:59 <duerig> I had the idea as I was going to sleep last night.
05:26:44 <duerig> Running it on Egobot didn't finish.
05:27:35 <duerig> !rail http://pastebin.ca/raw/27689
05:27:50 <duerig> It only says 'foobar!'
05:27:55 <duerig> It should say 'raboof!' too.
05:28:12 <GregorR-L> The issue is probably that EgoBot isn't logged in.
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05:29:01 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to GregorR.
05:29:25 <duerig> Anyhow, how did you like the code? It runs backwards and forwards over the same track, and does something subtly different each time.
05:29:34 <duerig> !rail http://pastebin.ca/raw/27689
05:30:13 * duerig shakes the EgoBot's hand.
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05:30:34 <GregorR> lol, my alter ego rejoined :P
05:31:11 <GregorR> I killed my home connection through nickserv.
05:35:42 <duerig> !rail http://pastebin.ca/raw/27692
05:37:28 <duerig> Whoops. I forgot to expire that pastebin. Oh well.
05:49:16 <GregorR> duerig: Did you see the nonesolang I was designing?
05:49:59 <GregorR> How 'bout I point you to the logs for yesterday :P
05:50:38 <GregorR> The meme ones are lacking ...
05:50:50 <duerig> I too am trying to design a nonesolang. But order of execution is hurting my head.
05:51:37 <GregorR> Aha, the tunes.org logs are complete
05:52:42 <duerig> It messes me up that they are in a completely different timezone than I am. :)
05:54:08 <duerig> btw, somebody should do a ternary bf some day.
05:55:40 <duerig> Just to be pedantic, compiling to c is just as valid a compilation as compiling to some assembler. :)
05:56:51 <duerig> It is *more* difficult.
05:57:10 <GregorR> Actuall, I'm half considering compiling to C++ to get free OO
05:57:14 <duerig> The backend is the same.
05:57:32 <duerig> The code generation is simpler with a simpler instruction set.
05:58:06 <duerig> To take advantage of c, you have to be more subtle than just using 'goto'.
05:58:19 <duerig> 'cuz there are all those other kinds of constructs that are optimized in different ways.
05:58:31 <duerig> That is just how I see it, though.
05:58:43 <Arrogant> C-- would be a good language to generate
05:58:54 <GregorR> It's intended for that, isn't it.
05:58:56 <duerig> I wouldn't compile to C++. Too much of a headache.
05:59:04 <duerig> I'm not sure what C-- is.
05:59:22 <duerig> What is the purpose of your new language?
05:59:45 <Robdgreat> can someone point me to a bf interpreter in a language whose only control structure is if/then/goto ?
05:59:50 <GregorR> Basicall, the power of C(++) but with a more scripting lang feel.
05:59:59 <Robdgreat> I've looked in the archives and haven't found any
06:00:15 <GregorR> Robdgreat: I'm sure there are ASM ones ...
06:01:01 <duerig> GregorR, what advantage will the scripting language feel get you? I know there are many advantages, I'm just wondering which ones are most important to you.
06:01:24 <GregorR> Dynamic typing, RAD are the primary ones.
06:02:09 <GregorR> Enough builtin stuff to make apps quickly is always nice :)
06:04:02 <duerig> Hmm... my current vision of your language seems a lot like python. How does it differ?
06:04:46 <duerig> btw, named constructors is *really* good!
06:05:02 <duerig> One of the major flaws in C++ is the fact that all constructors must have the same name.
06:05:24 <GregorR> It's actually not very dissimilar to python, but there are things in python that I ust don't really like.
06:05:36 <GregorR> Hopefully, this language won't have 'em ;)
06:06:10 <duerig> What do you dislike about python?
06:07:15 <GregorR> Well, a lot of it is actually syntactic - if I took a python interpreter, and changed the parser a bit, it would be pretty close ;)
06:07:35 <GregorR> Idonno, I haven't used Python in a while, so I don't remember the specifics I disliked.
06:07:45 <GregorR> I'll go read my Python book and get back to you ;)
06:08:46 <duerig> I would be interested to know. I like the idea of python, but certain things about it make me nervous.
06:09:45 <duerig> I don't know whether I can handle no braces. :) And the fact that subclassing is not done based on names kind of freaks me out.
06:10:04 <duerig> But if I actually sat down with it, I'd probably get used to it.
06:10:11 <GregorR> Also it seems like you can change WAY too much at runtime ...
06:10:55 <GregorR> Somebody told me about his using a library, but remaking the whole central class to the library to do something he wanted >_<
06:11:10 <GregorR> In HIS CODE, not actually changing the library code.
06:12:09 <GregorR> The problem is, you could fuck up somebody's code in your code, then submit a bug to their bugtracking system :P
06:13:02 <duerig> True. But generally if you are dinking around with somebody else's code and something goes wrong, you can be pretty sure it is your own bug.
06:13:33 <GregorR> You underestimate how stupid people are ;)
06:14:04 <duerig> But that is an easy thing to do. :)
06:16:26 <duerig> It looks like your language could be interesting.
06:17:58 <duerig> If I could give one bit of advice, though, that would be to focus onto one or a few design goals and then decide everything in relation to them.
06:19:09 <duerig> One of my coworkers, a PHD student, wanted to design a language for his dissertation. His design goal was 'write a language that will take over the c/c++/java marketshare. Not a good design goal. :)
06:20:07 <duerig> On the other hand, making a language good at RAD is a decent design goal.
06:20:08 <Arrogant> That language would have to have a built-in do-everything construct.
06:20:50 <duerig> It probably wouldn't take over even then. The kind of person who uses c wouldn't trust a do-everything construct. :)
06:21:34 <Arrogant> do-everything.loadWebpageAndRenderItPrettyLike()
06:22:00 <duerig> There is probably some Microsoft researcher trying to implement that class right this second! :-)
06:22:18 <Arrogant> But it'll mess up on the pretty
06:22:33 <duerig> I'm going to idle for a bit.
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06:47:15 <calamari> RobDGreat: still looking for an if/then/goto bf interpreter?
06:48:20 * calamari should code one for spaghetti :)
06:51:35 <Robdgreat> actually I just got back to the comp
06:56:41 <calamari> Robdgreat: any language preference?
07:05:51 <calamari> times up! spaghetti here we come :)
07:23:43 <Robdgreat> but right now I'm preoccupied with the Oracle of Bacon
07:25:01 * calamari is still figuring out how to read in the bf program :(, lol
07:34:53 <Robdgreat> Adolf Hitler and Ron Jeremy: 4 degrees of separation
07:52:35 <duerig> Robdgreat, don't do it in atari basic. Do it in atari assembler!
07:53:40 <duerig> Atari assembler is great. You've gotta love those 8-bit registers. :-)
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08:15:02 <calamari> a few students are using my 5200bas compiler for a grad class project
08:17:17 <calamari> coding in spaghetti has some 6502 similarities.. having to code high and low pointer bytes
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09:32:53 <calamari> weird bug.. I can print "Hello Wor", but if I print the l it goes weird
09:39:42 <calamari> I needed unsigned char in not just char
09:44:48 <calamari> hahah for spaghetti c output -O3 is smaller than -Os
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10:19:37 <jix> debugging...
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10:45:51 <jix> i'm working on my bf text-output-code generator
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10:59:29 <jix> c++ sucks..
10:59:41 <jix> i'm not going to continue writing this in c++
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14:38:03 <sekhmet> Robdgreat: Was that just me splitting all the time? I had figured that was something going on with Freenode in general
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15:44:40 <Robdgreat> sekhmet: you appeared to have been repeatedly getting booted
15:45:31 <Robdgreat> you split twice and once was no route to host
16:01:00 <jix> GregorR_: ... target)))))))) ;)
16:01:06 <jix> writing lisp is fun
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16:48:51 <CXI> jix: ruby! :o)
16:49:11 <jix> ruby is too slow
16:49:18 <jix> i used ruby for prototyping the algorithm
16:49:41 <CXI> yeah, fair enough
16:50:40 <jix> i implemented a binary heap in lisp... the code looks... lispy ;)
16:53:29 <CXI> gotta heart them brackets
16:53:36 <CXI> incidentally, have you ever heard of D?
16:53:56 <jix> yes it's a horror to compile it
16:54:18 <jix> i gave up...
16:55:03 <CXI> shame, I've heard good things about it
16:55:06 <CXI> never used it myself
17:00:04 * Sgep needs to leave for 30min
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17:05:55 <CXI> hmm, I wish I knew more about website performance
17:06:31 <CXI> 'cause I'm kicking around an idea for a CMS, but I'm not quite sure about stuff
17:06:38 <CXI> like the performance of disk reads vs database reads
17:08:25 <jix> data base searches faster database faster for small data sets (texts etc, account informations) harddisk ist faster for files (images etc) configurations is faster if it's written in native code
17:08:39 <jix> some things changes if you have a process that answers multiple requests
17:08:57 <jix> than configurations should be yaml or something human readable and parsed once not once per request
17:09:11 <CXI> hmm, right
17:09:20 <CXI> so it's basically always a better idea to store stuff in databases?
17:11:42 <jix> no it's bad to store downloads and images in databases
17:11:57 <jix> but you may store the paths to the files in the database
17:11:58 <CXI> er, sorry, yeah, by stuff I meant pages
17:12:29 <jix> if you have multiple requests/process you may want to cache some pages
17:12:44 <jix> or parts of pages
17:13:54 <CXI> it's terrible, I keep throwing around ideas and either ending up at "oh, wait, that's PHP"
17:14:02 <CXI> or "oh, wait, that's smarty"
17:14:21 <CXI> php templating engine
17:14:30 <jix> do not use php
17:14:39 <jix> np: Ensiferum - Guardians Of Fate [ Ensiferum ]
17:15:04 <CXI> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smarty <--- etc
17:15:13 <CXI> and yeah, I'm not using php - it's icky :P
17:17:08 <jix> use lisp!)))))) ;)
17:17:45 <jix> or with slime: use lisp!C-x C-q
17:21:12 <CXI> but yeah, it's tough to come up with any ideas without realising you're just duplicating someone else's work
17:22:40 * jix has to eat something
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18:25:24 <jix> c++ sucks...
18:25:32 <jix> moin calamari
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18:40:44 <jix> moin Keymaker
18:43:30 <jix> i switched back to lisp because c++ sucks
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19:27:17 <Keymaker> was there some way to list the channels and their topic?
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20:14:24 <jix> Keymaker: /list
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20:22:20 <GregorR> I finally updated my hats page :P
20:23:33 <jix> maybe you should update the text too?
20:24:01 <GregorR> Hmm, just saw a commercial that seemed a lot like Santa Clause and Garth Brooks were going to have gay sex.
20:24:21 <Keymaker> hmmm, i know garth brooks but who is santa clause?
20:25:13 <Keymaker> i have no idea who is garth brooks
20:25:49 <calamari> country music artist.. eew country
20:26:32 <jix> np: Ensiferum - Lai Lai Hei [ Iron ]
20:26:56 <Keymaker> i assume ensiferum is country band?
20:27:08 <GregorR> Nobody in their right mind likes country.
20:27:17 <jix> i don't like country
20:27:17 <GregorR> But anyway, I fixed the text :P
20:27:41 <jix> ensiferum is melodic death metal
20:28:16 * jix is bad at music categorisation i just copied that description from somewhere
20:28:33 <Keymaker> i just stopped today at one finnish web music store
20:28:45 <Keymaker> they had probably hundred metal categories
20:29:01 <GregorR> And Gregor doesn't like any of 'em :P
20:29:17 <calamari> Keymaker: btw, did you run the bf golf contests a while back?
20:29:46 <calamari> GregorR: you know you secretly like hair metal .. :P
20:30:29 <jix> ensiferum is a finnish band btw
20:30:55 <jix> GregorR: what's your favorite music?
20:31:18 <GregorR> Hmmm, I'd have to go with Romantic-era Russian.
20:31:46 <jix> any online samples?
20:31:48 <GregorR> Borodin, Rimsky-Korsakov, Ippolotov-Ivanoff, etc.
20:32:05 <GregorR> Well, I'm sure you've heard Flight of the Bumblebee, that's by Rimsky-Korsakov.
20:32:26 <jix> yeah i'm sure i heard something of them but i'm sure i don't remember the name
20:32:44 <GregorR> Heh, just google any of them, I always buy CDs so I don't know of any particular sites.
20:32:59 <Keymaker> calamari: no, i haven't ran any bf golf contests,
20:33:05 <jix> scooter is music?
20:33:36 <Keymaker> calamari: and the latest one ended few days ago
20:34:08 <Keymaker> even i, as a competition planner, didn't get mine done
20:34:32 <GregorR> Anyway, I'm off again, byeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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20:34:58 <Keymaker> http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1360541&forum_id=201037
20:36:10 <calamari> I have an idea for a new contest... it shouldn't be especially difficult
20:36:57 <calamari> in my automata/grammars/tcm clas we have discussed the various models of computation
20:38:30 <calamari> one problem a finite automaton couldn't solve was L = a^n b^n, (basically two strings of characters of equal length)
20:38:43 <calamari> but a context free language could, because of its stack
20:39:07 <calamari> however, a context-free lang can't handle a^n b^n c^n
20:39:44 <calamari> so I thought it'd be neat to see the shortest bf program that would either accept/reject an input based on whether it fits a^n b^n c^n
20:40:15 <calamari> for example aaaabbbbcccc is in the language, but aaaabccc would not be
20:40:52 <Keymaker> hmmm, i still don't get it :) i'm sorry, i'm dumb
20:41:25 <calamari> aaaa bbbb cccc, another way to write it is a^4 b^4 c^4
20:42:04 <calamari> but aaaa b ccc = a^4 b^1 c^3, 4 != 1 != 3
20:42:17 <calamari> so it is not in the language a^n b^n c^n
20:42:46 <calamari> it's considered the canonical example of a language requiring a turing machine
20:43:02 <jix> and there is no length limit for a b and c?
20:43:18 <Keymaker> like: hah -- valid, aabc -- invalid
20:43:19 <calamari> jix: correct.. it could definitely be more than 255
20:43:50 <jix> it has to be the letters a b c in that order
20:44:03 <calamari> so abcabc is also not inthe language
20:44:53 <calamari> sorry.. the alphabet is = {a, b, c}
20:45:06 <calamari> but I think for the purposes of the contest that would be undefined
20:45:23 <jix> abc is good
20:45:32 <calamari> I think it'd be okay for the contestant to choose any three ascii symbols (except spaces)
20:45:35 <jix> oh and the terminating character is 10 \n ok?
20:45:46 <jix> but it should be specified
20:45:56 <calamari> perhaps it should be a b c then
20:46:14 <calamari> another common form is 0^n 1^n 2^n
20:46:46 <Keymaker> 1. write a brainfuck program that reads a file as input
20:46:48 <calamari> I'd also like the form of output to be "accepted" or "rejected", but that may be too much trouble
20:47:07 <jix> no! thats good!
20:47:16 <jix> (because i'm working on bfgentext
20:47:24 <Keymaker> 2. read inputs, each separated from each other by unix new-line
20:47:29 <calamari> okay, I'll review my notes and write up a format description of the language and examples
20:47:40 <Keymaker> 3. output "valid" or "invalid" depending whether the data is
20:48:02 <calamari> Keymaker: that's not traditional
20:48:11 <calamari> Keymaker: the input is simply a string of characters
20:48:43 <Keymaker> ok, so there will be only one input per program?
20:48:49 <jix> so its aaabbbccc\0 ?
20:48:55 <jix> thats not that easy to enter
20:49:01 <jix> \n is better
20:49:15 <Keymaker> but entering it as file is rather easy
20:49:27 <calamari> I'll write up a spec and then we can work out problems
20:49:35 <Keymaker> especially if it's something like aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbccccccccccccccccccccccccccc
20:49:46 <Keymaker> calamari, this is excellent idea
20:50:19 <Keymaker> i'll grab my brainfuck competition coding gloves
20:52:19 <Keymaker> are the abc always in that order?
20:53:08 <jix> should the program expect a^n b^m c^l \n or any input (like hah)
20:53:26 <Keymaker> and how does the program tell whether it's valid or invalid input?
20:54:25 <jix> it outputs "accepted\n" or "rejected\n"
20:54:58 <Keymaker> anyways, to mention, i think the input terminating would be better with 0, since eof = 0, one didn't need to enter anything
20:55:57 <jix> and thats why the terminator should be \n.. the output gets misplaced if the user doesn't press \n
20:56:22 <Keymaker> i'm going to feed the input as file..
20:56:43 <jix> \n shouldn't be a problem in a file
20:57:22 <Keymaker> ..yep, it's not.. ..and most probably calamari, in case the input is long (which i suggest it should be), so he doesn't need to write 400 'a's etc..
20:57:52 <Keymaker> but that's naturally just my (humble) opinion
20:57:57 <jix> \n is just one keypress more
20:58:22 <Keymaker> but it doesn't look good in text editors..
20:58:44 <Keymaker> well, whatever calamari decides, i'm oppositing it unless it's 0. >xD
21:00:09 <Keymaker> but anyways, i need to repeat once more: this competition idea is really good! seems like interesting 'test' or whatever, i haven't heard about it before. i wonder why i never realize good competition ideas like this..
21:01:09 <Keymaker> since calamari probably has more money than me, he should buy prizes for gold, silver, and bronze winners :D
21:01:35 <Keymaker> something small like around-the-world trip..
21:06:23 <jix> does anyone of you know string figures?
21:07:13 <jix> take one long string loop and to hands with 5 fingers on each hand
21:07:36 <jix> then do some magical things and you get string figures
21:07:51 <Keymaker> no, haven't heard of those before
21:09:03 <jix> here are figures for beginners: http://www.alysion.org/figures/introkids.htm
21:09:20 <jix> or with video clips: http://www.alysion.org/figures/introkids.htm
21:09:44 <jix> i'm able to "make" a dog that is able to walk if i extend
21:12:00 <jix> i want to make a photo of the dog (as i'm not able to find a description or photo of that figure on the internet)
21:12:07 <jix> but i can't find my webcam
21:12:48 <Keymaker> it's interesting that there's this kind of thing existing, and i have never heard of it
21:13:29 <Keymaker> people have made all kinds of stuff..
21:13:53 <Keymaker> some get interested in some specific thing and dedicate all their freetime and effort on it
21:15:17 <jix> string figures are very old.. (most are from the native americans)
21:28:49 <jix> back to lisp coding
21:29:05 <jix> calamari: how's the spec going?
21:29:41 <Keymaker> by the way, any ideas for the competition starting date and deadline?
21:29:59 <jix> from now to in 5 mins? ;)
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21:37:17 <calamari> jix: wrapping up the last few details
21:38:28 <jix> oh and the bf implementation should use wrapping
21:38:46 <jix> Keymaker's compo had no entries because it was nonwrapping
21:38:58 <Keymaker> it was probably not because of that..
21:39:11 <jix> i was done implementing the important things using wrapping bf
21:39:12 <Keymaker> bf golf has always had entries and it is non-wrapping ;)
21:39:45 <Keymaker> and my laurent made an entry to my previous competition (and i got mine almost done)
21:39:57 <calamari> it will be non-wrapping.. sorry jix :)
21:40:07 <Keymaker> and the first one had a lot entries (and it was non-wrapping)!
21:40:16 <calamari> although I very much enjoy wrapping, it seems better to disallow it
21:40:18 <jix> but than make it nochange on decrement 0 instead of error
21:41:18 <calamari> sorry jix :) it's the bf golf tradition to not allow wrapping
21:42:38 <jix> does bfdebug support nonwrapping?
21:42:54 <jix> because bfdebug is THE ULTIMATE bf coding utillity
21:43:31 <Keymaker> just to note, before someone else does, the "and my laurent made" should be "and laurent made"..
21:44:54 <jix> ultimate bf debugger written by calamari (right?)
21:44:55 <calamari> http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=387#387
21:45:05 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context.").
21:45:08 <calamari> jix: dunno about ultimate, but I really like it :)
21:45:29 <jix> had Keymaker a wrong button problem?
21:45:51 <jix> but he was able to talk after he wrote that
21:45:52 <calamari> perhaps it took that long to die?
21:46:16 -!- Kmkr has joined.
21:46:28 <Kmkr> i hate clicking the wrong window..
21:46:36 * jix was right!
21:46:54 <Kmkr> i accidentally closed this window when trying to close that darn firefox
21:47:28 <calamari> Rebdgreat: btw, I finished that Spagetti program last night and compiled it to c, so I can send you a bf interpreter using only if and goto :)
21:48:20 <Robdgreat> actually what I think would be great is an atari basic interpreter/compiler in c
21:48:58 <calamari> I wrote a basic -> 6502 compiler for the Atari 5200, not sure if you were here when I mentioned that :)
21:49:28 <calamari> not too bad.. I didn't include expression parsing
21:49:34 <jix> it's a pretty lowlevel basic right?
21:49:58 <calamari> I was able to include expression parsing, but I do not know how to optimize them yet
21:50:13 <calamari> since the language was for writing games it needed to be fast
21:54:42 <Kmkr> hmmm, seems the competition is on!
21:55:03 <Kmkr> calamari: i'll report about in it in the brainfuck golf forums
21:55:14 <Kmkr> (although nobody reads them anyways)
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21:56:32 <GregorR> I CAN TRADE PR0N PM ME KTHXBYE
21:58:37 <Robdgreat> whatever gave them the idea that that's anything resembling clever?
21:59:19 <Robdgreat> I type like that sometimes, but only because it's so idiotic it's funny.
21:59:44 <Kmkr> can you trade some corpse pics for some mp3s gregor?
22:00:05 <Kmkr> ..and of course i'm not joking!
22:01:11 <GregorR> OMG NECROF33L334 IZ HOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!
22:03:17 <Kmkr> hey, cheers man, these pics are great.. i wish the local cemetery would as hot as the one over there..
22:08:37 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
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22:09:51 <calamari> linux is really stupid sometimes.. I bet I've been disconnected for about 15 minutes and didn't even know it
22:10:12 <calamari> what was the last thing I said?
22:10:44 <GregorR> I don't even have the last thing you said because you didn't talk after I connected.
22:10:55 <Kmkr> calamari: i informed about the new competition in brainfuck golf forum
22:11:02 <Kmkr> https://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1380003&forum_id=201037
22:11:44 <calamari> Nov 05 14:51:15 <calamari> any comments on the writeup?
22:11:44 <calamari> Nov 05 14:51:25 <calamari> I had to have made at least one error :)
22:11:44 <calamari> Nov 05 14:53:08 <calamari> Ahh.. non wrapping memory array.. didn't mention that
22:11:44 <calamari> Nov 05 14:53:21 <calamari> thanks Keymaker :)
22:11:44 <calamari> Nov 05 14:53:30 * calamari is reading Keymakers spec
22:11:45 <calamari> Nov 05 14:58:46 <calamari> okay .. edited :)
22:11:47 <calamari> Nov 05 14:59:25 <calamari> I suppose I should provide a reference interpreter.
22:11:49 <calamari> Nov 05 15:04:23 <calamari> how are entries usually handled?
22:11:51 <calamari> Nov 05 15:04:45 <calamari> do they get sent somewhere, or are they held on to until the contest is over and checked against their MD'4's?
22:11:54 <calamari> Nov 05 15:04:51 <calamari> err MD5's
22:11:58 <calamari> Nov 05 15:06:11 <calamari> Robdgreat: http://kidsquid.com/bf2.c
22:13:12 <calamari> Keymaker: how are entry submissions usually handled?
22:13:38 <calamari> I want to participate in the contest, so they can't be sent to me :)
22:14:44 <Kmkr> calamari: first md5s are posted before the deadline
22:15:01 <Kmkr> then, after deadline, the actual entries
22:15:08 <calamari> that's how I had it.. just wanted to make sure :)
22:15:26 <Kmkr> and the judge, who can also enter the competition by himself too, checks the md5s match the submitted programs
22:15:52 <Kmkr> the md5s should be taken from a program that has nothing else than brainfuck characters in it
22:16:04 <Kmkr> that way the checking if it matches the md5 is easier
22:17:01 <Kmkr> anyways, good luck! :)
22:18:27 <Kmkr> *be back in few minutes*
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22:45:25 <Kmkr> calamari: the empty string is always followed by a new-line, too?
22:45:56 -!- duerig has joined.
22:46:43 <Kmkr> calamari: and can there be strings like "ab"?
22:47:04 <Kmkr> or is there at least three characters if the string is not empty?
22:52:31 <calamari> you can have ab, but it is not in L
22:52:46 <calamari> and there will always be a trailing newline..
22:53:05 <jix> to the md5's
22:53:21 <Kmkr> you're already ready?!
22:53:29 <jix> everyone should precede the code with some non bf characters to avoid bruteforcing the md5
22:53:56 <jix> like calculating the md5 of bla+++ instead of +++ .. because it's easy to brute force brainfuck md5s if the code is small
22:53:59 <Kmkr> hmm, but all the codes will be probably at least 300 instructions
22:54:08 <jix> 300 instructions is ok
22:54:17 <jix> but like 40 instructions is brute-force-able
22:54:25 <calamari> jix: the first posted entry (if two are the same) is the winner
22:54:39 <calamari> jix: doubtful with printing acceppted or rejected that it will be under 40
22:54:42 <Kmkr> forgot that :9
22:55:11 <Kmkr> i'll eat gregor's newest hat if someone can get it under 500
22:55:31 <GregorR> Again - my hats, you can't just eat them.
22:56:03 * jix is ripping a cd into iTunes
22:58:48 * GregorR is ripping jix into shreds
22:59:41 <Kmkr> oh, not really, it just looked good with those other words
23:00:21 <Kmkr> what about prizes?
23:00:27 <calamari> also added that not all input must be read
23:00:28 <Kmkr> you need to promise at least joy of winning ;)
23:01:28 <jix> np: Ten Years After - Rock Your Mama [ Undead Live '68 ]
23:01:29 <calamari> can't be money as I am poor :(
23:01:56 <GregorR> There's always sexual favors!
23:02:17 <calamari> GregorR: thanks for offering the prize
23:03:14 <Kmkr> calamari: non-materialistic prizes are fine as well ;)
23:03:27 <jix> calamari: paint a picture
23:03:37 <Kmkr> for example something graphical "i won a^n b^n c^n brainfuck competition" button
23:04:08 <Kmkr> that's what i have sent laurent from the two competitions :D
23:04:21 <jix> i beat the sword master
23:04:44 <jix> in monkey island 1
23:04:52 <Kmkr> never visited that place
23:04:58 <jix> if you beat the sword master you win a t-shirt saying "i beat the sword master"
23:05:29 <Kmkr> also, a t-shirt would be awesome if calamari has extra money :)
23:05:44 <Kmkr> for whoever wins it..
23:05:55 <jix> or a graphic for printing a t-shirt ;)
23:06:23 <calamari> lol, I have neither extra money or graphic design skills.. just see my webpage for proof of that :)
23:06:38 <calamari> I have a spare abacus, how's that?
23:06:54 <jix> ultra-cool!
23:07:19 <Kmkr> probably not turing-complete at least
23:08:00 <jix> well you can move the "things" on the abacus to any position with arbitrary precision..
23:08:09 <jix> haha @ http://bash.org/?574542
23:09:22 <Kmkr> ^ well, if it's in usa i can understand
23:09:57 <jix> they have signs FIRE IS HOT don't they?
23:10:19 <GregorR> Warning: Hot coffee is hot!
23:10:43 <Kmkr> better pour some coffee on myself and sue somebody
23:11:16 <jix> Warning: stopping to breath may result in lack of oxygen
23:12:04 <jix> in some special cases.. yes
23:12:15 <GregorR> SURGEON GENERALS WARNING: Breathing toxins is bad for you!
23:13:19 <jix> Warning: running around naked and crying "i'm genius" may cause people to think you aren't genius
23:13:56 <GregorR> WARNING: FATTY FOOD MAKES YOU FAT!
23:14:01 * calamari should test that theory sometime
23:14:12 <jix> which one?
23:14:33 <jix> GregorR: doesn't true for me
23:14:50 <jix> i'm eating and eating and eating without getting FAT
23:15:00 <GregorR> SHUT UP! I don't want to hear about your metabolism!
23:15:23 <calamari> on irc no one can see your waist :)
23:15:33 * Kmkr eats cheeseburger
23:15:58 <Kmkr> that's 100000 cheeseburgers at once!
23:17:46 <calamari> okay.. I need a forum category for bf and similar langs
23:18:30 <Kmkr> hmmm.. 1 dimensional languages?
23:20:09 <calamari> okay, that's what I'll call it then :)
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23:32:11 <calamari> hmm, I already made forum.kidsquid.com .. I'll just add esoforum.kidsquid.com
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23:52:54 <Kmkr> good night everyone
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00:11:25 <duerig> Jix, last night you said that you refused to use C++ anymore. What was troubling you?
00:14:16 <jix> something didn't work as i expected and i was unable to find the bug
00:15:15 <jix> some people say they hate dynamic languages because they have too less compile time checks.. i hate c++ because the runtime error msgs doesn't help
00:15:15 <duerig> Want me to take a look? I'm enough of a C++ weenie that I can usually spot even obscure bugs.
00:15:50 <duerig> That is true. If you want decent error reporting in C++, you have to roll your own. :(
00:16:03 <jix> it's something with obscure memory management i just don't want to care about MM...
00:16:09 <jix> that's why i'm using lisp now
00:16:29 <jix> lisp is more intuitive for me
00:17:40 <duerig> I don't suppose you'd let me look at the code that was troubling you?
00:18:08 <jix> i'd have you to send 3 c++ files that probably wont compile...
00:18:27 <jix> i have no idea where the bug is and my fixing attempts resulted in even more bugs
00:18:49 <jix> you'd probably have to rewrite the whole code too fix it
00:19:04 <duerig> I'd still be curious to see. If you want, you can just copy and paste them into the following form: http://www.xmission.com/~tyrecius/mail.html
00:19:06 <jix> and i've done more in lisp know that i did in c++ for that project
00:19:08 <duerig> And then I could read them.
00:35:49 <duerig> And I see why you wanted a GC. :)
00:39:53 <duerig> The problem is that all of the pointers in your RHS object come from the vector in 'vector<AStarNode> snodes = current_node->subnodes();'. This is destroyed at the end of every 'step()' call. Thats why you get dangling pointers.
00:40:11 <duerig> And with a proper GC, all of that is moot 'cuz the GC will keep them around for you.
00:43:05 <jix> objc memory management would be ok too
00:48:51 <duerig> I am a bit puzzled about why your priority queue holds pointers rather than just the objects themselves.
00:49:39 <jix> i tried every pointer not pointer combination
00:50:58 <duerig> Well, I don't blame you for being frustrated in a situation like that. It looks like it just calls out for a GC. :)
00:51:10 <duerig> I hope you are having more fun doing it in LISP. :)
00:51:41 <duerig> Nifty. And thanks for letting me sate my curiosity.
00:57:00 <jix> HAH i just noticed a big error in my algorithm and it was just a little work to fix it!
00:57:11 -!- lirthy has joined.
00:57:16 <jix> moin lirthy
00:58:38 <jix> duerig: you arn't on the esolang map
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01:27:43 <jix> - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang -
01:32:19 <duerig> Unfortunately, I'm not from anywhere interesting. :)
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01:52:05 <jix> !bf8 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<-.+.
01:52:19 <jix> successfully ported
01:53:33 <jix> wait the numbers of > is wrong
01:54:36 <jix> ah was a stupid typo
01:55:23 <jix> hmm there seems to be a bug in the priority queue
02:14:12 <jix> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.---------------.++++++++++++++.+.
02:14:18 <jix> !bf8 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.---------------.++++++++++++++.+.
02:14:37 <jix> done with rhs in lisp
02:17:04 <jix> !bf8 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++..>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++.+++++..--------.-------.++++++++++++++.>.<----.---------.>.<----.+++..+++++++++++++.>.<---.-.>.<++++++.------------.---.>.<++++++++++++++++++.----------------------.+++++++++++..++.
02:17:38 <EgoBot> 99 bottles of beer on the walln
02:19:08 <jix> and that is the shortest code for that string without looping
02:20:10 <jix> Right Hand Side
02:20:25 <duerig> I realize that. But what is it in the context of bf?
02:20:30 <jix> its just the right part of the code (the left is generated using genetic algorithms)
02:20:35 <jix> in context of bf it's nothing
02:21:07 <jix> in context of bf output code breading it's partitioning the program into data-cell-initialisation (left hand) and outputing (right hand)
02:21:19 <jix> and without left hand data is initialized to 0,0,0....
02:22:30 <duerig> So you wrote a search program which tries to find the shortest bf code which will initialize a set of cells to particular values, right?
02:23:46 <jix> i wrote a program to search the shortest code to output a givin string using a givin memory data
02:25:41 <duerig> It is interesting that you had to use a graph search algorithm for that. I would have naively thought that it was a simpler problem than that.
02:26:15 <duerig> But I can see why you chose to do it that way in retrospect.
02:26:48 <jix> if you choose the shortest one with each step you may have to choose longer one later because you messed up the memory with the first shorter one
02:27:31 * jix has to refine the estimation function
02:28:50 <duerig> Hmm. I notice that there is no looping in your programs.
02:29:18 <jix> in subnodes
02:29:38 <duerig> Er. I meant in the bf programs that you tried out.
02:29:58 <duerig> So looping just didn't happen to be advantageous in those circumstances?
02:30:15 <jix> looping would make A* kinda impossible..
02:30:35 <jix> i don't have a limited set of subnodes then
02:30:58 <jix> there are some special cases and i'm going to take advantage of them
02:31:14 <duerig> That could be a big issue. That means that you probably aren't being minimal.
02:31:42 <jix> take a look at most output codes.. the right side is like 90% loop less
02:34:53 <duerig> But there are all kinds of places where [<+>-] might stand in for arbitrarily long '+' strings.
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02:35:33 <duerig> Or [<->-], or having a different number of '<' and '>'.
02:35:54 <duerig> Er I mean the having more than one '<' and more than one '>' even if they are the same.
02:36:22 <duerig> And that is just something off the top of my head. It seems like there might be any number of situations.
02:36:28 <duerig> But that might make the whole problem untractable.
02:36:44 <jix> thats the point.. there might be any number of situations
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02:38:21 <duerig> Let me think about this. There may be some clever way we can get the best of both worlds.
02:40:05 <jix> i have an idea!
02:40:12 <jix> split the output into multiple rhs and lhs
02:40:31 <jix> the lhs can contain arbitrary code including all possible loop constructs
02:45:43 <duerig> I thought that the lhs was generated0.
02:46:03 <jix> later it's generated using genetic algorithms
02:46:16 <duerig> Why not do the rhs with GAs too?
02:46:25 <duerig> If we're in approximation-ville anyhow?
02:46:44 <jix> because it would take too long to generate an output that actually prints the wanted string
02:47:31 <duerig> Gah. Cat on the keyboard. :)
02:48:21 <duerig> Hmm... Suppose that we start out with something relatively naive that outputs the data. Then we have output-preserving mutations? I'm not sure exactly how to do those, but if we could, then I think we'd be home free.
02:49:50 <duerig> Grr.. I dunno. Combination would be really hard.
02:49:55 <duerig> Let me think some more. :(
02:50:18 <jix> rule of making super cool programs:
02:50:24 <jix> make them working first
02:50:32 <jix> then make them super cool ;)
02:50:44 <duerig> But you've already got it working. :)
02:51:05 <jix> not all parts only a simple rhs not a rhs with good estimates
02:51:53 * Sgep is going to check out ReactOS's LiveCD...
02:52:33 <calamari> does that have a bash terminal, or is it tryign to be as windows as possible?
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02:57:18 <duerig> Hmm. I've got an idea.
02:57:28 <duerig> You could do a Simulated Annealer.
02:59:13 <duerig> There would be a small number of ways that you could do a one-off modification of the bf code: insert a bounded loop, insert some number of left shifts or right shifts, insert some number of increments or decrements. And you could have a greedy completion.
02:59:16 <jix> it's 4am here...
02:59:36 <duerig> And good luck with your RHS.
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03:00:46 <Robdgreat> hey is there something available to convert 6502 assembly to x86?
03:01:05 <calamari> robdgreat: I need a better chat program.. wonder if there any any console chats that allow scrollback
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03:01:24 <duerig> The one I'm using does.
03:01:34 <duerig> Or rather it uses my own console's scrollback.
03:01:48 <calamari> robdgreat: I don't know of any automatic tools.. what are you trying to do?
03:02:09 <calamari> blah that's what I'm using hehe
03:02:21 <Robdgreat> I have a disassembler listing of a rom image, I might take this opportunity to port it manually
03:03:05 <duerig> What terminal are you using, calamari?
03:03:13 <calamari> if you have it in binary form you can run it on the atari800 emu
03:03:19 <Robdgreat> I'm gonna make a native atari basic interpreter
03:03:31 <calamari> duerig: not sure what you mean.. I'm using getty
03:03:50 <calamari> duerig: I'm not in x if that's what you're asking
03:04:35 <duerig> Ah. A text only screen.
03:04:38 <calamari> duerig: I call it ctrl-alt-f1 mode.. not sure of the real name of it
03:05:03 <duerig> In that case have you tried shift-pgup, ctl-pgup, and alt-pgup to see if they'll scrill?
03:05:39 <duerig> Ok. Then it is your terminal.
03:05:46 <calamari> shift-pgup doesn't do anything, the other combos give ~
03:05:51 <duerig> I'm not sure how to configure the text-only terminal on linux.
03:06:04 <calamari> duerig: no prob.,. neither do I :)
03:06:26 <duerig> My advice: Use x, then you can use an xterm and those are very configurable. :-)
03:06:37 <calamari> can't.. I have 26mb of disk space free :)
03:07:00 <calamari> I was thinking of setting up svgalib tho.. I understand links works with that :)
03:07:35 <calamari> if I can get a halfway decent web browser working I may decide to zip up the windows intall and that'll give me more room to play
03:08:52 <duerig> calamari, http://www.unixguide.net/linux/faq/07.06.shtml talks about messing around with the kernel source to change scroll-back behaviour.
03:09:01 <duerig> Maybe you can do that and recompile the kernel.
03:20:37 <duerig> That might be a good search term for google. :)
03:24:32 <calamari> that doc helped a lot actually, thanks
03:24:50 <calamari> I have 6 vc's, and maybe that's why I can't scroll back... no remaining video memory
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03:33:46 <duerig> Be sure to make enough text to run off the top of the screen. Otherwise it won't scroll back regardless.
03:59:38 <lament> lock picking is interesting.
04:43:48 <duerig> lament, yes. But of limited utility.
05:14:17 <calamari> it gave me a lot more scrollback
05:14:27 <calamari> however, I found out what happens to my scroll
05:14:39 <calamari> if I switch to another vc and back I lose all my scrollback
05:16:40 <Robdgreat> then don't ever switch to another vc
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08:07:28 <duerig> calamari: Hmm. That is unfortunate. Let me see if I can find a remedy.
08:11:19 <duerig> An imperfect solution would be to auto-log to a particular file. Then you could just 'less' the file. That would allow searching as well. But much less convenient than just scrollback.
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08:30:43 <calamari> duerig: :) thanks for the suggestions. I'll figure something out.
08:31:19 <calamari> links with svgalib seems to be working fine, although I guess the driver for my card only gives 256 colors
08:34:07 <duerig> Yeah. The more I look at this, the more certain I become that you'd need to edit code in the kernel to get what you want.
08:34:16 <duerig> Sorry I couldn't be of more service.
08:35:17 <duerig> I'm going to stop looking now. However, some promising keywords I discovered were mdacon vgacon vga-text-console and linux-frame-buffer. I was reading the webpage http://www.digitalhermit.com/linux/hiresconsole.html
08:35:23 <duerig> That is if you want to pursue my leads further.
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09:04:30 <calamari> okay, past 2am.. must go to bed :)
09:04:48 <calamari> thanks again duerig for your research & links
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12:03:50 <jix> !bf8 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++.------.+++++.>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<---------.+++++++++++++++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++.+++++++.----------.-.---------.>+.>++++++++++.
12:06:14 <puzzlet> !bf8 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++.------.+++++.
12:21:28 <jix> the lisp implementation is so much faster than the ruby one
12:55:08 <jix> !bf8 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+.+++++.------------.---.+++++++++++++.>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<++.---------------.++++++++++++++.+.>++++++++++++++...
12:55:52 <jix> 0.048 seconds of real time 0.035805 seconds of user run time
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13:30:48 <Keymaker> me likes new opera 8.5 (haven't bothered upgrading until now)
13:32:22 <jix> i don't like opera
13:32:23 <jix> moin Keymaker
13:46:35 <Keymaker> grhh. i haven't managed to do anything yet! i've been awake for six hours
13:55:19 <Keymaker> grhh. i should learn some valid web designing..
13:55:43 <Keymaker> something that would tell how to do the stuff without tables
13:55:54 <jix> pha... who needs tutorials...
13:55:57 <Keymaker> why does everyone complain about tables?
13:56:12 <Keymaker> well, i don't know the commands
13:56:14 <jix> because tables are for tabular (?) data not for layout
13:56:49 <jix> just learn it by looking at css of csszengarden
13:57:05 <jix> and use the w3schools reference
13:57:30 <Keymaker> perhaps i should just use tables..
13:59:21 <jix> they make it hard to change the design they make it hard to print only the content of the page instead of the design (which is maybe not suited for printing..)
13:59:50 <jix> use what you want ;;)
14:01:07 <Keymaker> jix, know what font that is? http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/184/184.css&page=0
14:01:31 <Keymaker> it's nice font and common in blogs and stuff, i'd like to know what it is
14:01:53 <jix> font:11px/32px Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif;
14:02:10 <jix> on your computer it's the first font in the list that is installed
14:05:25 <Keymaker> how they make those gradients?
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14:28:51 <Keymaker> noticed there's a new brainfuck competition going on, organized by calamari
14:29:43 <int-e> Keymaker: yes. I still get notifications from the sourceforge forum.
14:30:03 <jix> it has a cool prize!
14:30:12 <int-e> Keymaker: so thanks to you I know about it.
14:36:57 <Keymaker> hmmm, can one have different favicons to different pages?
14:38:30 <int-e> heh. wikipedia says: <link rel="shortcut icon" href="/favicon.ico" /> in the <head> section of the document.
14:39:22 <int-e> while the 'classic' favicon.ico is limited to the root 'directory' of the web site.
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15:31:05 <ihope> I just made a binary lambda calculus syntax, which doesn't look very nice.
15:32:10 <ihope> program: 1[function]
15:32:11 <ihope> function: 0[function][function] or 11[identifier] or 10[lambda]
15:32:13 <ihope> lambda: [identifier][function]
15:32:14 <ihope> identifier: [pidentifier]11
15:32:16 <ihope> pidentifier: [null] or 0[pidentifier] or 10[pidentifier]
15:35:25 <ihope> Of course, it's not very efficient: the smallest syntactically valid program is number 447.
15:39:07 <ihope> It's the identity function.
15:42:40 <ihope> The K combinator is 3535, and the S combinator is too big to convert into decimal at the moment.
15:43:15 <ihope> Aha. S is 398949562099.
15:44:53 <int-e> why do you distinguish programs and functions?
15:45:19 <int-e> ah, to allow 0 prefixes. ok
15:50:49 <int-e> shouldn't that be 948705375987 to make a program?
15:54:18 <int-e> and the K is missing a pair of 11 ...
15:55:46 <int-e> (110111001111 = program lambda 11 lambda 011 identifier <missing>)
15:55:58 <ihope> Why so it is. So that means it's 14143?
15:58:02 <ihope> Okay. So does anybody know how to make the S combinator in Lisp?
16:05:20 <int-e> I'd say it's no fun, due to lack of partial application in Lisp
16:05:52 <ihope> You mean currying is wonky?
16:06:31 <int-e> (defun s (f g x) (funcall (funcall f x) (funcall g x))) works if all your functions are curried.
16:07:08 <int-e> obviously, this s is *not* curried.
16:07:57 <ihope> Is there a way to curry it?
16:10:58 <int-e> (defun curry3 (f) (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (lambda (z) (funcall f x y z)))))
16:11:21 <int-e> I don't know about any builtin ways, but I have very little experience with Lisp
16:14:11 <int-e> * (funcall (funcall (funcall (curry3 #'s) (curry2 #'+)) #'1+) 5)
16:14:56 <int-e> compare to Haskell:
16:14:59 <int-e> Prelude> let s f g x = (f x) (g x) in s (+) (1+) 5
16:15:33 * ihope tosses Lisp in the trash can
16:16:40 <jix> lisp isn't good for lambda calculus
16:16:41 <int-e> Lisp is cool, but it's not a functional programming language. Its greatest power is its Macro facility.
16:16:55 <jix> i'm using lisp for my new bfgentext
16:17:10 <jix> because c++ has no gc and ugly syntax and ruby is too slow
16:18:29 <int-e> C++ is a very useful high level assembler
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18:31:48 <Keymaker> ugh.. why every place is filled with sound, animation, video, pictures?!
18:32:17 <Keymaker> why every place allows user to have 300 mb of space for pictures, music, video?!
18:33:40 <Keymaker> why everything is so personal these days? people have blogs, make own podcasts, have hundred pictures of theirselves..
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22:22:08 <calamari> GregorR: do you know how to use autoscan?
22:22:46 <GregorR> It's the M4 script used to create the configure script.
22:22:55 <GregorR> autoscan should create configure.scan
22:23:27 <calamari> autom4te: configure.ac: no such file or directory
22:23:27 <calamari> autoscan: /usr/bin/autom4te failed with exit status: 1
22:23:47 <GregorR> What's that the output to?
22:24:02 <GregorR> That's obnoxious output that autoscan produces for no reason :)
22:24:37 <calamari> it did create the scan file :) I was just worried I'd done something wrong
22:24:40 <GregorR> You have to modify configure.scan to your liking, then rename it configure.ac
22:24:58 <GregorR> It's because autoscan can also tell you how to update configure.ac
22:35:05 <GregorR> Yes, I know how to use that too.
22:35:23 <GregorR> That being said, if you want to use them in combination, you should make the .am files before running autoscan.
22:35:57 <calamari> I was wondering why I was having to put that stuff in manually
22:35:57 <GregorR> After all, autoscan does /scan/ :)
22:36:32 <calamari> either I'm terrible at searching or the docs for this stuff are nonexistant
22:36:42 <GregorR> The docs are quite excellent.
22:36:50 <GregorR> http://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/
22:36:52 <GregorR> http://www.gnu.org/software/automake/
23:07:19 <GregorR> A lot of exciting talk here :-P
23:17:27 <calamari> got bfigolf.c bfstrip.c done.. just figureing out the auto* stuff
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03:16:42 <graue> I am thinking of rewriting the 1L specification to make it more general
03:18:17 <graue> like whatever character appears in the top left will be a 'space', and anything else will be a 'turning wall', so literal spaces won't need to be used
03:25:55 <GregorR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:XEyeStCdNYCSmall.jpg < Can anybody else get this?
03:26:11 <GregorR> My roomate can't, I think it's easy...
03:26:54 <GregorR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_imaging#Side-by-side < the article with info on how too view it.
03:31:39 <graue> is that esolang-related?
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03:43:55 <graue> it's just one of those 3D imaging things
03:45:57 <graue> what does it take to get an esolang standard to be blessed by ENSI?
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03:49:13 <GregorR> lol, that's a very good question ;)
03:49:27 <GregorR> Without a very good answer I'll bet.
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04:34:56 <graue> 1L standard draft: http://www.voxelperfect.net:3875/esolang/1l_a105.html
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05:09:43 <graue> no comments, eh? well, I'll check the log later
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05:31:02 <GregorR> For no particular reason (actually, requested in another channel), here's a picture of me with my hair down: http://www.codu.org/hats/Hair-med.jpg
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05:41:38 <GregorR> Since calamari missed the worthless link :P
05:41:45 <GregorR> For no particular reason (actually, requested in another channel), here's a picture of me with my hair down: http://www.codu.org/hats/Hair-med.jpg
05:41:49 <calamari> GregorR: I've been messing around with this packaging for hours.. I'm wondering if you'd be willing to take a look at it? It's 2 c files each compiles into a separate program
06:58:02 <calamari> http://kidsquid.com/programs/bf/bfgolf.tar.gz
06:58:22 <calamari> okay, need to go to bed.. thanks again Gregor
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08:23:11 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/GIMPregor.jpg
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11:31:46 <jix> moin everyone!
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12:53:34 <Keymaker> esoteric forums are a good thing
12:54:08 <Keymaker> however, i wish there'd be only one of them. two is too much. either i have to post everything twice or select which one i want to use
12:55:46 <Keymaker> graue's forum has better design, but it doesn't have the possibility to register. calamari's forum is the traditional phpbb that has all the good stuff but it looks crap! (don't take this personally when you read this calamari ;))
12:56:46 <Keymaker> i hate the traditional phpbb design. if you'd install some modification/theme/skin it'd look much better
12:57:51 <Keymaker> anyways, and i like the address of graue's board more
12:58:22 <Keymaker> but, calamari's board is easier to navigate.. there are categories..
12:58:44 <Keymaker> well, i need to think which one to join, unless the boards join their forces
13:00:04 <Keymaker> or well, one can't join graue's forum, but i meant with that which one to start using more
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13:19:15 <Keymaker> raven: how is project you showed me long time ago.. ?
13:49:08 <{^Raven^}> Keymaker: I keep forgetting to email the maintainer and ask permission
13:50:06 <Keymaker> it'll be great addition to the community forum, map, irc log list..
13:50:13 <{^Raven^}> Ravens are known for being bird-brained
13:50:23 <Keymaker> by the way, seen the esomap yet?
13:51:09 <Keymaker> it's a map where esoprogrammers can place their location
13:51:39 <Keymaker> (and it's located at frappr.com/esolang, although i said that already)
13:52:55 <Keymaker> and another news is that calamari is running a brainfuck competition ;)
13:54:10 <Keymaker> and it has a physical prize as well! a spare abacus (with 9 rods) he has
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14:43:20 <Keymaker> well, i didn't bother going to record shop, afterall..
14:43:31 <Keymaker> i'll just order the records via net..
14:48:49 <{^Raven^}> Keymaker: was adding myself to the map (on the other pc)
14:54:45 <{^Raven^}> there was a real post on the FoBF mailing list recently (I've never seen a real one before)
14:56:07 <Keymaker> must check, haven't checked for a while
14:56:45 <kipple> it was calamari about the contest
14:58:39 <Keymaker> kipple: they haven't added our beer programs nor replied me yet..
14:59:11 <kipple> they're probably busy with other things then
15:00:27 <Keymaker> ..but what kind of computing could be more important?
15:14:54 <{^Raven^}> they're probably adding DRM to esolangs so we can't pirate commercial INTERCAL apps anymore
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15:22:24 <graue> seen the new 1L spec yet?
15:22:45 <graue> http://www.voxelperfect.net:3875/esolang/1l_a105.html <-- the draft
15:22:47 <kipple> been away, and hasn't read the logs
15:23:53 <graue> I'm looking for comments, since I may have stupidly left something out
15:34:39 <graue> just the 'A' program
15:34:58 <graue> http://esolangs.org/files/1l/src/1l_a/a.1l
15:35:20 <graue> also a tidier version at http://infestationgardens.net/files/a4.1l
15:35:59 <graue> also... hang on a sec
15:36:18 <graue> ...a graphical version at http://infestationgardens.net/files/a.1l.png
15:36:42 <Keymaker> nice (thanks to opera's zoom!)
15:37:51 <graue> the idea behind this exercise was to show that whether or not a language is "non-textual" is a matter of the implementation more than the language itself, just like no language is necessarily compiled or interpreted
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15:44:59 <Keymaker> the universe faq was useful, i know now everything i need to :)
15:45:10 <graue> oh, you mean those writings, heh
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15:46:06 <Keymaker> the site has interesting simplicity
16:04:18 <graue> speaking of simplicity
16:04:35 <graue> why do you want the esoforum to support registration?
16:04:42 <graue> it already remembers your name, doesn't it?
16:07:00 <kipple> registration is nice if it allows email notification when someone replies to your posts
16:07:35 <kipple> what I really like about the current forum is the css-feed which allows me to browse it (and even post to it) in Thunderbird
16:07:37 <Keymaker> personally i hate e-mail notification..
16:07:42 <graue> hmm... you can load the RSS feed into your RSS reader, maybe :)
16:07:55 <Keymaker> but anyways, in forum with registeration it's easier to post
16:08:23 <Keymaker> and one can be certain no idiot comes and starts to use your name
16:08:39 <Keymaker> although that probably doens't happen in these circles, luckily
16:08:44 <graue> hmm, the board actually does have a feature to deal with this, without registration
16:09:09 <graue> if you type "Keymaker##secretphrase" it'll add some stuff after your name which can't be produced unless someone enters the same secret phrase
16:09:36 <graue> I'm not sure if that is working correctly, though (there seems to be a weird problem with FreeBSD's crypt() call)
16:09:51 <Keymaker> i think it makes that stuff automatically somehow
16:10:02 <Keymaker> i have never written anything after the name but it has added there some random stuff
16:10:32 <graue> well, that's the "ID: " part which is derived from your IP address, but I mean right next to your name
16:11:33 <Keymaker> well, as said, both forums have good sides, but it's annoying to have two of them
16:38:35 <graue> I don't like phpBB-type registration/profiles/post counts/etc.; it makes it about people rather than ideas
16:48:51 <graue> the "post too long. click here to view the whole post" thing is annoying me; think I should lengthen the length limit before that kicks in?
16:49:05 <graue> and by the way: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/
17:07:16 <graue> what do you not understand?
17:07:59 <Keymaker> that why languages can't be nontextual
17:09:11 <graue> it's because the format of the source code is really just a way to read symbols that comprise the program
17:09:44 <graue> if you say "in my programming language, red does X and green does Y and blue does Z", I can make a 2D textual language where $ does X and & does Y and ! does Z, and it's really the same language
17:11:17 <Keymaker> uh, yes.. but if language is defined so that the source code is a picture, it seems very non-textual to me
17:11:44 <Keymaker> if you make a piet interpreter that uses some ascii i wouldn't say it's not really a piet interpreter
17:11:55 <graue> exactly; I wouldn't either
17:12:14 <Keymaker> oops, i accidentally inserted 'not'..
17:12:23 <graue> if a language definition says "the source code is a picture", it is actually saying something about how interpreters should work, not about the language
17:12:57 <Keymaker> hmm. but the language consist of instructions. and the instructions are represented as colours in image..
17:14:11 <graue> Piet does get points for using a lightness cycle and hue cycle, so that the color representation makes more sense than a textual representation would
17:14:36 <Keymaker> well, unnecessary is non-textial, at least
17:14:47 <graue> compare Braincopter, which would make much more sense to represent textually
17:14:55 <graue> s/compare/contrast/
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18:45:39 <graue> it's going all right
18:47:04 * calamari should start working on his golf entry :)
18:48:07 <calamari> oh cool.. didn't know this mode http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/subback.html existed
18:48:15 <calamari> can that be the default starting mode?
18:53:49 <graue> it can if you bookmark that page, I guess
18:54:19 <graue> want me to add a link from http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/ to it?
19:02:53 <calamari> btw, when I go to a long thread, it'll skip .. the forum thread skips from 1 to 12
19:03:16 <calamari> entry 1 to 12, I should have said
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19:08:40 <graue> calamari: hmm? it's not doing that for me
19:13:47 <calamari> graue: http://kidsquid.com/skip.png
19:20:06 <calamari> since you like bash: http://bash.org/?6460
19:23:59 <jix> my idea for a forum:
19:24:22 <jix> you can add keywords to threads (brainfuck 2d new-language etc.) and can filter for them
19:24:30 <jix> no need for hard coded categories than
19:24:56 <jix> i like the idea of using a simple forum over a compilicated (and often buggy (?)) phpBB
19:25:12 <jix> but the current forum is a bit too simple
19:25:19 <jix> i think registered users are good
19:26:35 <calamari> one thing I wondered with the current forum.. seems easy to impersonate someone
19:27:25 <Robdgreat> "post by calamari: I'm a doodoo head"
19:27:37 <graue> well, 1) if I can get the crypt()-on-FreeBSD thing worked out, you would be able to securely identify yourself, 2) who's gonna bother?
19:27:41 <calamari> Robdgreat: and it'd be true most of the time hehe
19:27:47 <graue> but most of all, 3) it's about ideas, not people
19:27:58 <graue> you can't impersonate an idea, now can you?
19:29:36 <calamari> graue: does your forum offer a serach feature?
19:30:14 <graue> Google does (if it's started indexing the site yet)
19:31:08 <graue> anyone know an implementation of crypt() in Perl (or, is anyone willing to write one)?
19:31:13 <calamari> is it easy to modify the output? I could code up a quick html form for the google search if you'd like
19:32:28 <graue> I need a crypt() in Perl to get some stuff working correctly... it just needs to implement the traditional DES-based algorithm with 4096 possible salts
19:33:11 <jix> is it possible to add my keyword and keyword filter idea?
19:33:39 <jix> and then add a list of the most used keywords on the top of the page
19:33:40 <calamari> graue: there is a crypt function
19:34:12 <calamari> here is part of the example from programming perl:
19:34:47 <calamari> if (crypt($word, $pwd) ne $pwd) { die "Sorry...\n"; } else { print "ok\n"; }
19:35:21 <graue> calamari: yeah but it uses the libc crypt
19:36:59 <graue> FreeBSD sucks: http://wakaba.c3.cx/sup/kareha.pl/1130723862/59-66
19:38:23 <graue> if the script could call a well-behaved crypt() then you would be able to identify yourself securely using "name##secretword", i.e., you'd have all the imposter-preventing power of registration
19:39:27 <GregorR> Good thing that's so intuitive >_>
19:49:49 <calamari> google's site search doesn't seem to be able to restrict the search any more than "esoteric.voxelperfect.net"
19:51:01 <jix> it is but the forum isn't indexed yet
19:52:03 <calamari> so /forum will too, eventually
19:54:38 * calamari goes back to working on his entry :)
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19:55:28 * jix is only able to type with one hand
19:55:50 * jix types with too hands but it hurts
19:57:12 <calamari> so when you win, you can say you did it one handed?
19:57:23 <jix> no read my last msg
19:58:37 <graue> jix: the keyword thing would be cool but require a lot of changes to the script
19:58:57 <graue> if you're willing to write Perl, go ahead and try it ;)
19:59:15 <calamari> jix: ahh.. my mistake.. the phrase is "single handed" :)
19:59:40 <jix> /ME ? PERL ? NEVER! (*h*)
19:59:49 <calamari> jix: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Single-Handedly&defid=1271538
19:59:52 <graue> jix: heh, that's what I thought
20:00:27 <graue> hmm, now it's time to write a Piet interpreter that reads code from text files
20:01:52 <calamari> there you go, add language extensions to the forum :P
20:02:13 <jix> a forum plugin for the wiki would be cool
20:02:21 <jix> cross referencing wiki and forum
20:02:26 <jix> same accounts for both
20:02:41 <calamari> have it as another tab besides "Talk"
20:02:53 <jix> talk is for a wiki entry
20:03:02 <jix> a forum topic is a thing on it's own
20:03:34 <calamari> where woulkd the entries go on the wiki then
20:04:04 <jix> forum:topic-name?
20:04:09 <jix> but not as a tab
20:04:33 <jix> and forum threads can have Category tags too
20:04:52 <calamari> would that arrange them by alphabetical order or by last edit?
20:05:04 <jix> they arn't like wiki entries
20:05:10 <jix> they are like normal forums
20:05:15 <jix> but with wiki markup and accounts
20:05:39 <jix> maybe something like that exists
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20:13:34 <graue> I think I'll represent the colors by the letters A through F
20:13:57 <graue> dark: AA, normal: Aa, light: aa
20:14:51 <graue> white: two spaces, black: ##
20:19:15 <jix> graue: is the site hosted by textdrive?
20:19:29 <jix> <!-- Served by pendrell.textdrive.com in 0.58 secs. -->
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20:21:30 <graue> jix: you answered your own question I guess?
20:26:26 <graue> maybe I'll implement a textual Braincopter/Brainloller first, then Piet
20:28:01 <graue> Braincopter should be pretty easy
20:33:05 <graue> a 2D Thue would be fun
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21:46:05 <graue> 2D macro languages...
22:00:59 <graue> is there a way to display the integers from 1 to n with less than O(n) storage?
22:01:19 <graue> wait, also I meant "in random order"
22:05:32 <calamari> depends on your definition of random, I suppose
22:06:03 <calamari> I'm generating random numbers in bf with around 8 memory cells
22:08:42 <GregorR> I think graue needs non-repeating.
22:12:49 <calamari> for n=5 (numbers 0 to 4, just add one before output), use (n+3)%5
22:14:17 <calamari> hmm.. I wonder if there are always two constants x and y such that (n+x)%y doesn't repeat over y iterations
22:21:44 <calamari> but it still inst very random at all
22:21:53 <graue> no, it's really not
22:22:02 <graue> I was thinking like, equal chance of every possible permutation
22:22:10 <graue> which I guess is not possible
22:22:31 <graue> I do know how to permute an array in place with that result, though
22:23:48 <graue> 2D string-rewriting language: http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1131402000/
22:24:31 <graue> it predates Knuth; there's lots of people who are credited with "inventing" it, in fact
22:24:56 <graue> may have been made famous by one of his writings though
22:24:58 <calamari> yeah sure.. I even invented it
22:25:35 <calamari> but I think that's what it's generally known as
22:27:15 <graue> Perl programmers seem to know it as the "Fisher-Yates shuffle"
22:28:11 <graue> my original question was inspired by thinking about how to implement that 2D language
22:28:15 <graue> how's it sound to you?
22:30:42 <calamari> sounds confusing, so it's probably good :)
22:32:08 <fizzie> I seem to recall that (n*x)%y goes through all [0, 1, ..., y-1] (for n in [0, 1, ..., y-1]), when x and y are coprime.
22:36:18 <graue> calamari: when no substitutions can be made the program terminates
22:36:44 <graue> while substitutions still can be made, one is made, at random, then this process repeats itself
22:37:17 <calamari> so it's like an ambiguous grammar
22:37:30 <graue> that's the only part that really comes from Thue at all; I didn't copy its interactive I/O for instance
23:07:28 <fizzie> Ah, now I realized where I remembered that result from: it's needed for double hashing. (Where the probe sequence for slots is (h1(k) + i*h2(k) % N) and needs to be a permutation of {0, 1, ..., N-1}.)
23:11:58 <graue> that's cool, I never thought of hashing that way before
23:13:46 <fizzie> Often the collisions are handled simply by making the slots linked-lists so they can contain >1 elements.
23:15:30 <fizzie> I happened to have the "write an 'open addressing' hash table" question on my "introduction to imperative programming" course. (Half of the class got that one, the other half wrote their hash tables with chaining.)
23:20:19 <fizzie> I wrote an open-addressing double-hashing table with table-size constrained to 2^N, and h1(str) = sum(i=1->len) p1[str[i]%32] * 31^(n-i), h2(str) = (sum(i=1->len) p2[str[i]%32] * 31^(n-i))*2+1. (Where p1,p2 were random permutations of {0, 1, ..., 31}.)
23:23:48 <fizzie> I think the hash function was inspired by the one the String class in Java uses. (Except that that one doesn't use those permutations I used to make h1/h2 differ.)
23:31:48 <calamari> graue: dunno if this helps http://www2.toki.or.id/book/AlgDesignManual/BOOK/BOOK4/NODE151.HTM
23:32:34 <graue> it is a broken link
23:33:30 * graue checks the #esoteric log
23:33:45 <graue> oh, it's NODE151, not NODE11
23:33:53 <graue> my IRC client has a stupid wrapping bug in it
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23:58:36 <Aardwolf> Sorry about my post, I was a bit extreme in there, I just wanted to write some feeling down there
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00:39:20 <graue> Aardwolf: on the wiki?
00:39:34 <Aardwolf> yes, I mean the comment about the timeline article
00:40:26 <graue> you might be interested in this: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/kareha.pl/1131382031/
00:42:11 <Aardwolf> 1L code looks nice in an image
00:42:28 <graue> I was going to write a text-based Braincopter/Brainloller interpreter to prove the point further, but I lost interest when I realized they were essentially 1D and I'd just be converting them into Brainfuck then running them
00:42:35 <graue> you think? I guess it does
00:43:04 <calamari> Aardwolf: do you have an example 1L image?
00:43:12 <Aardwolf> yes, in the link graue gave :)
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00:44:46 <Aardwolf> well, an image based language can't do more than a text based language, except that in an image you can store up to 3 bytes in 1 pixel, which would look messy in a text file (where you have to count with special ascii characters you can't easily use and such), so it gives an advantage but it is a point that being image based can't add anything extra to the language itself
00:48:21 <Aardwolf> I don't think it makes sense to convert mycelum to text based, because it's completely defined with modulo divisions of color channel values, and piet would be even harder, because of the different shapes that color zones can have
00:52:08 * calamari was able to fit a bf interpreter into a bmp image.. runs in ms-dos :) wonder when I did that... should check the test image date
00:54:28 <calamari> very small.. http://kidsquid.com/programs/msdos/msdos.html
00:55:09 <Aardwolf> so the image is actually executable in dos?
00:55:37 <calamari> the company I was working for at the time blocked download of "executables".. so I couldn't resist :)
00:56:18 <calamari> it works with com programs.. they're encoded into the image.. so it didn't really need to be a bf interpreter, but I thought that'd be fun
00:57:03 <calamari> it's the factor program, so you'll need to push alt-(keypad)1 (keypad)0 for "enter"
00:58:17 <Aardwolf> hmm, it said <heart> kjqsdfoui
00:58:40 <graue> I was considering making a textual Piet interpreter using the letters A thru F for the hue cycle
00:58:59 <graue> dark would be all-caps like AA, normal would be mixed (Aa), light would be lowercase (aa)
00:59:11 <graue> white would be two spaces, and black would be ##
01:00:05 <graue> but really, I'd rather do something more interesting, like my 2D string-rewriting language idea
01:01:04 <Aardwolf> remember deltaplex? I think I'll consider writing a simpeler version of it (my original idea would have been a bit too much work to make an interpreter for)
01:01:16 <graue> calamari: what do you mean "it's the factor program"? the interpreter can't load programs from files?
01:02:10 <graue> oh geez... (just read Deltaplex article)
01:02:10 <Aardwolf> I think factor.com is going extremely slow in dosbox
01:02:20 <calamari> graue: I embedded the program into the interpreter so it would be self contained...
01:02:31 <graue> graphics and audio are cool, but they're not really anything to do with languages
01:02:36 <calamari> graue: but of course a normal interpreter could read from files
01:02:52 <graue> calamari: was this interpreter also a normal interpreter?
01:03:48 <Aardwolf> maybe they don't have to do with languages, but I want to break the barrier of stdin and stdout
01:03:58 <calamari> I used my tiny asm interpreter
01:04:17 <calamari> and I haven't looked at it in years
01:04:17 <graue> I wonder if 1L_a is Turing-complete if the program height is limited to 16 rows, maximum
01:04:35 <graue> if so I could load programs from MIDI files
01:05:47 <calamari> I chose a bmp because it would be automatically downloaded by the brwoser into the cache... so I didn't "download" anything ;)
01:06:27 <calamari> of course I never made use of the thing.. floppies were easier
01:07:58 <Aardwolf> with those super tiny bf interpreters around, I wonder if someone would ever get the crazy idea to write a computer virus that uses bf code hidden in all sorts of things as executable
01:10:12 <calamari> you want it to be small, just writie it in asm yourself
01:11:41 <graue> this is somewhat offtopic, but you know that Panu Kalliokoski guy who invented iag, B5, and Lisp2K and ran the esolang mailing list?
01:11:49 <graue> his "stx" structured text program is really nice
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01:25:36 <graue> also, I don't think B5 is intended to be an esolang
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01:33:35 <Aardwolf> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/kareha.pl/1131382031/ <--- what do you think about the 5th reply there?
01:36:37 <graue> yeah, that might be neat
01:39:04 <Aardwolf> it could be called something like, standard textual to image converter
01:39:55 <Aardwolf> or ascii to image converter, because the korean language would be left out
01:46:19 <graue> yeah, those poor korean language speakers :(
01:46:29 <graue> people are always stepping all over them, making programs that only support us-ascii
01:48:20 <Aardwolf> something like: R = (ascii*53)%256, G = (ascii*27)%256, B = ascii, rotate left = (0,0,255), rotate right = (0,255,0) could work (just an example)
01:48:45 <Aardwolf> I meant to say *17 instead of *27 for G :)
01:49:34 <Aardwolf> gotta go tho, got an important class tomorrow
01:50:40 <graue> I'm working on a better plan for colors
01:51:03 <graue> well, check the forum topic later then...
01:56:49 <graue> I think I like Pbrain
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06:32:01 <duerig> If all the world is a stage, then who is the audience?
06:33:13 <duerig> Yeah. Their so uppity, they don't even deign to send us a message. :)
06:34:01 <GregorR> They send messages all the time!
06:34:06 <GregorR> You just have to listen to the yokels!
06:35:09 <duerig> No wonder they are uppity, if the only earthlings they talk to are yokels. Maybe they don't realize we have cities and skyscrapers and stuff.
06:35:38 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/pics/Portland2.jpg < Can you get the effect?
06:37:03 <duerig> I keep getting a finger.
06:37:20 <GregorR> Try without the finger thing, just cross your eyes and try to make the images matchl.
06:38:11 <Robdgreat> yeah I've seen pics like that before
06:38:22 <Robdgreat> I have a bitch of a time getting the images to merge though
06:38:34 <GregorR> For some reason it comes totally naturally to me.
06:38:39 <duerig> I can kind of merge them. But it looks like a wide, repetitive landscape if I do that.
06:38:50 <GregorR> And it seems like it does for a few other people too.
06:38:54 <lament> GregorR: pretty, but cross-eye pics never look too great
06:39:07 <GregorR> lament: They're quite crisp and great 3D to me.
06:39:17 <lament> GregorR: i mean, compared to the other kind.
06:39:29 <GregorR> I hope you're not comparing to red-green :p
06:39:40 <GregorR> Polarized = better, with stereographic equipment = better.
06:39:50 <GregorR> But with no equipment, cross-eyed is quite good.
06:40:05 <duerig> Grr. I hate it when I crave ice cream at midnight. All of the ice cream places are closed. :(
06:40:06 <lament> i mean, when you look further than the image
06:40:12 <lament> instead of in front of the image
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08:19:40 <calamari> GregorR: did you ever have one of those 3-d cameras? It was a disposable w/ 3 lenses. The prints use serrated plastic, like on those cheapie tilt 3-d things
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17:35:38 <Keymaker> i'm quite happy too, my long wait is over, tomorrow i can finally get one album..
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17:39:47 <kipple> count on #esoteric for interesting discussions
17:40:10 <Keymaker> too bad i have no other channel..
17:42:00 <Keymaker> seriously, i can't understand how some people can spend hours _discussing_ in irc! where do they find the channels?
17:42:58 <GregorR> You have to get a rotation going.
17:44:36 <Keymaker> by the way, you guys going to enter the calamari's brainfuck competition?
17:45:17 <jix> going to enter...
17:45:59 * kipple is not entering because he's not good at bf programming
17:46:31 <Keymaker> (i'm entering too, although i have no chance of winning the abacus)
17:46:43 <jix> i hope i get the abacus
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18:26:31 <Keymaker> grhhh. there's nothing in the net. the net should be closed and we should start writing letters instead
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18:33:23 <GregorR> Or an Esolang television show!
18:38:00 <kipple> it could be like a cooking show, except you don't make food but esolangs :)
18:40:31 <kipple> hmm. a Chef/cake recipe polyglot would be fun.
18:40:33 <Keymaker> what about an esolang based on television? you have infinite amount of channels as memory, looping is channel-browsing, the program ends when the television is turned off..
18:41:12 <jix> and the program is a program guide
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22:09:42 <GregorR> Hmm, I could get http://brai.nf/uck/ for only $1022
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00:15:59 <beerkills> I call myself Sgeo everywhere but Freenode
00:16:48 <beerkills> Err... too lazy to retrieve my password might be more accurate.
00:17:17 <beerkills> Back when I used Windoze, I used a program called passwordsafe
00:17:37 <beerkills> On linux, I've been too lazy to attempt to retrieve it
00:22:57 <beerkills> Partially because I typed it into the nick box in Konversation, and clicked out of it, forgetting that that sets nick
00:23:10 <beerkills> And also because someone on another network mentioned drinking beer
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01:12:38 <GregorR-L> And the ident was UNIX ... might not have been a mistaken join!
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01:49:01 <CXI> I can never find a nifty way to do text to brainfuck
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03:35:23 <GregorR> I found a good "trainer" 3D image :P
03:39:37 <kipple> I have no idea what you're talking about :)
03:39:59 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/pics/3d/RedPhone.jpg
03:41:27 <kipple> I can never get those things to work for me
03:42:09 <GregorR> I've found that that pic has had great success with those who couldn't do others.
03:42:20 <GregorR> And once you've got one, you sort of "get it", and others are easier.
03:42:34 <kipple> when I cross my eyes everything gets so blurry that it is impossible to seee whether it is 3D or not
03:42:53 <GregorR> The focussing is the hardest part.
03:43:19 <kipple> does the distance to the screen matter?
03:43:40 <GregorR> Not AFAICT, but I'm told that if you get farther away it's easier.
03:45:03 <calamari> that's not a trainer image, lol
03:45:10 <calamari> that requires quite the crossing
03:45:22 <calamari> unless you mean training for extra crossing?
03:45:37 <GregorR> I have no idea, just several people that couldn't see other ones were able to get that one.
03:45:43 <GregorR> So I have to assume that it's somehow intrinsically easier.
03:46:19 <calamari> well it's a decent image.. wish it had part of a wallway for extra depth or somethin :)
03:46:47 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/pics/3d/Down-Lg.jpg
03:48:57 * calamari likes crossing his eyes as hard as he can, then looking straight ahead through one eye.. freaks people out :)
03:51:24 <calamari> the way I was taught to cross my eyes was to look at my finger (pointing up) and move it closer and closer to my face while still looking at my finger. It sort of works automatically.
03:51:37 <calamari> of course one you train your eyes you don't need that anymore
03:52:03 <GregorR> Note that that instruction is on the images ;)
03:52:33 <GregorR> "Or, put a finger over the blue rectangle, and pull it back until you see the 3D image."
03:52:56 <calamari> see thats different.. mine the finger moves toward you
03:53:14 <GregorR> What do you imply from that sentence?
03:53:29 <calamari> I don't know.. it's a difficult sentence to understand
03:53:40 <GregorR> I was limited in the length of the sentence :-P
03:54:14 <calamari> oh, are these your images? cool
03:55:19 <calamari> I realized the problem with the red phone.. most ppl probably run 1280x1024 and I'm at 1024x768 on a 21" monitor :)
03:55:39 <GregorR> That's why I have both the -Lg and the not -Lg.
03:55:48 <GregorR> So the non-Lg works well for me.
03:56:19 <calamari> I downloaded the image and resized it.. much less eye-straining.. if I have to cross too much the images seem to go diagonal from each other and I can't get a good lock
03:57:05 <GregorR> Firefox and IE scale it to the width of your monitor, so I find that -Lg is good for that.
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05:31:37 <Arrogant> Man. Firefox 2.0 is going to rock out.
05:31:52 <Arrogant> Of course I realize that Firefox 1.5 is not done yet!
05:31:58 <Arrogant> But that doesn't mean I'm not anticipating already.
05:40:40 <GregorR> Just a sort of "by the way, I'm alive" thing.
05:41:22 <Arrogant> Which means that Chatzilla will become my new IRC client.
05:41:29 <GregorR> Awesome, gonna be scripting?
05:41:42 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/pics/3d/Trainer.jpg < Can you see the 3D phone? :P
05:41:51 <Arrogant> Oh, definitely. The only thing keeping me from writing Chatzilla scripts is that it is in JAVASCRIPT.
05:42:09 <GregorR> Yeah, Javascript is bad ...
05:42:49 * Arrogant checks the mimetype of said link
05:43:24 <GregorR> Like goatse is just a jpeg.
05:43:58 <GregorR> No, this is just a 3D phone ;P
05:44:04 * Robdgreat tries to reach for the bottle of moxie.
05:44:43 <Robdgreat> try crossing your eyes until the images merge
05:44:54 <Robdgreat> that's the only way that works for me
05:44:55 <Arrogant> I do that then I accidentally focus.
05:45:17 <GregorR> Both are explained on the image.
05:49:14 * GregorR has no idea what that means :P
05:49:32 <Robdgreat> Once I get the images to merge, it takes me a second before I can actually focus
05:49:56 <Robdgreat> often it goes in and out of focus, wavering a bit until I can finally see it
05:50:13 <Arrogant> It's there, but in peripheral vision
05:51:21 <GregorR> I've gotten too damn good at these XD
06:19:52 <calamari> oh no, uninstalling and reinstalling kstars fixed it.. welcome to Windows. Click here to begin :(
06:20:17 * calamari was really hoping it was a bad config file entry or something
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06:21:07 <calamari> well that's okay.. still a cool program
06:23:41 <calamari> I still haven't thought of a clever way to eliminate all the bad cases from my golf entry
06:28:30 <calamari> and for another random comment.. grip is great at reading badly damaged discs and still making them listenable (no stuttering)
06:30:17 <Robdgreat> www.thepaddedcell.org/bandnamegen2.php <-- English counts as an esoteric language, right?
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06:47:20 <duerig> Hey, does anyone know why lhope added mispellings of lambda to the wiki with redirects to lambda calculus?
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07:53:39 * GregorR wonders if ramkrsna is a certain person GregorR knows from Intel ...
07:54:26 * GregorR notes that that's about as silly of a thought as thinking "I wonder if this Mohammed online is the same Mohammed as the friend of mine"
07:55:49 <GregorR> Yeah, the more I thought about it the more I figured that didn't actually make sense :-P
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09:04:11 <GregorR> I have decided to disown Kansas from my knowledge. The US has 49 states and a black hole roughly the size and shape of an average state that destroys intelligent thought.
09:32:12 <duerig> Kansas? What is that? Oh. Do you mean Kansas-City, Missouri? :-)
09:32:16 <duerig> http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=Kansas+City,+MO
09:33:35 <duerig> In my own state, there is an idiot trying to get science out of the classroom. His argument is that 'You see cats and dogs, but no dat. So obviously species are what they are and can't change'.
09:40:36 <duerig> And he was voted as a state senator.
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15:18:13 <jix> moin nooga
15:18:41 <jix> nooga: http://www.frappr.com/esolang
15:26:34 <nooga> i forgot abt the photo
15:38:33 <nooga> google maps include my city :D
16:15:08 <kipple> yay, europe is catching up with the US on the map :)
16:15:52 <nooga> i must add my photo ;p
16:16:06 <nooga> but i look like an idiot ;p
16:26:24 <nooga> how is it with ortographical mistakes in english?
16:27:32 <nooga> i.e. if i write "kindergarnen" will you know i meant "kindergarden" ?
16:28:10 <kipple> probably. there aren't any other words that I know of that it could be
16:28:21 <nooga> in polish: przedszkole (kindergarden) is correct, but i can write ciekole
16:28:38 <nooga> it sounds simmilar but it's wrong
16:29:24 <nooga> i just need some english ortographic errors in my new language ;p
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17:04:24 <nooga> trying to write SADOL compiler for .NET
17:04:31 <nooga> but idk how to start ;p
17:06:40 <nooga> compile to MSIL and then compile MSIL using M$ ILDASM
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18:35:43 <Keymaker> anythin' interestin' goin' on?
18:39:52 <kipple> I've thought about writing a version i Rail as well, but when the site is not updated it is not so inspiring...
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19:52:47 <calamari> how is your entry going? I'm still trying to find a good way.. lots of different bad input cases to throw out
19:52:58 <Keymaker> well, i haven't started programming yet
19:53:22 <Keymaker> but when i feel non-lazy enough i'll try to plan a better version
19:54:10 * calamari hads found 11 different input configs, 2 are good, 9 not :)
19:54:47 <calamari> of course I'm probably missing a few.. wrote those up during a boring lecture
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21:30:05 <Keymaker> aardwolf: done any work on deltaplex?
21:30:39 <Aardwolf> Keymaker: yeah but it's a lot of work, and I'm currently making a game
21:30:53 <Keymaker> and yeah, i belive it's a lot work
21:31:11 <Aardwolf> I think I'll make a simpler kind of deltaplex, with only a few commands, only able to draw triangle primitives or so
21:32:26 <Aardwolf> Appearantly it's not really considered innovative tho, because it's not a new kind of language, only more input and output possibilities.
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22:49:08 <kipple> Aardwolf: you shouldn't take graue's opinions as everybody else's
22:50:13 * GregorR-L disagrees with every point graue has ever made :-P
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00:10:52 * nooga is trying to write SADOL -> .NET's CIL
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01:05:42 * calamari notes that it takes much longer to compile qemu than the linux kernel
01:17:15 <GregorR-L> Hmm, works great for me, but I could be out of date....
01:22:03 <calamari> ahh there we go.. it must have been the cvs qemu I was trying to use
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01:44:30 <calamari> qvm86 doesn't seem to help much
02:07:27 <calamari> which kqemu would work.. the latest version is supposed to be faster than qvm86
02:10:02 <GregorR-L> See, I wouldn't use it because it's proprietary :-P
02:11:32 * calamari just uses what gets the job done.. until it starts getting in the way
02:12:13 <calamari> win xp doesn't get the job done.. it's crap :) but I have to use it for visual studio
02:12:45 <GregorR-L> Now if only VS got the job done ...
02:17:32 <calamari> well, monodevelop failed me.. the latest version crashes out constantly
02:17:50 <calamari> but I need it for the windows.forms support
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06:52:09 <calamari> qemu win2003 startup: no accel 4:53, qvm86 4:46, kqemu 4:19
06:52:43 <GregorR> However, that seems like a very I/O bound operation ...
06:52:47 <GregorR> Try it with something more proc-bound.
06:53:06 * GregorR searches in vain for a way to pimp OBLISK.
06:53:45 <calamari> however the i/o being done is the same in all cases... :)
06:54:49 <calamari> and qvm86 was basically like having no acceleration at all
06:55:17 <calamari> if it wasn't installed for qemu I'd try it plain.. hehe
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07:31:46 <calamari> I was running tow qemus at the same time.. with only one, kqemu boots in 2:45
07:32:02 <calamari> need to retry qvm86 to make sure on it
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07:37:42 <calamari> 2:54.. guess it helps when you're not running two copies of 2003 at the same time :)
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22:26:11 <ihope> I just set up Haskell to do SKI-combinator calculus.
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22:27:03 <ihope> But it keeps complaining that the type ((a -> b) -> a -> b) is not of type (a -> a -> b).
22:27:49 <ihope> Indeed, the superset of those types is (x -> b), where x *is* (x -> b).
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22:40:46 <KevinN> whee... AlPhAbEt 0.20 is released... :)
22:45:49 <ihope> Hmm... 0.20. Sounds good to me!
22:46:21 <KevinN> changed a lot since 0.14
22:51:47 <ihope> Hmm, lemme fudge this a bit...
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01:50:59 <ihope> Eh, infinite types in Haskell. Can it be done?
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04:35:56 <GregorR> I'm going to try C# ... if I like it I'll be pissed.
05:00:55 <GregorR> Woah .... REALLY hate C#'s operator overloading ......
05:04:15 <GregorR> Don't like delegates either ... seems like they tried to escape function pointers but just made something even worse ...
05:07:35 <GregorR> Hmm, I guess I don't hate its operator overloading, just indexers ...
05:10:15 <GregorR> Overall opinion: Better than Java, but no better than C++. Sacrifices too much power for finesse. I don't need an "override" keyword to know when a method is overriding the method of its base class (etc)
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12:31:40 <Keymaker> (the traditional weekend-start message)
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12:40:09 <jix> moin Keymaker
12:41:51 <Keymaker> a hour earlier than here, it seems
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13:49:39 <Keymaker> too bad no update on 99bob.net
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19:13:03 <Keymaker> underflow!!!! i love non-wrapping ;)
19:13:21 <lament> http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/
19:22:43 * Keymaker tosses out his aluminium foil helmet
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19:29:53 <Sgep> Bye all for now
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21:42:00 <Keymaker> after rewriting: still underflow and strange behaviour
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02:32:51 <ihope> Aha. Apparently it's just very laggy and all that...
02:34:43 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls
02:34:45 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} glass glypho kipple lazyk malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01
02:35:03 <GregorR> Oh, I know why, I'm running too much stuff :P
02:36:07 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls
02:36:09 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} glass glypho kipple lazyk malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01
02:37:18 <ihope> Now I'm getting a help thing via msg's...
02:47:15 * ihope will resist the urge to spam it with !help and !ps
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03:29:02 <ihope> I suddenly want to write a Haskell-to-Lazy K compiler.
03:30:52 <ihope> It'd probably be done in an imperative language until I get Haskell down.
03:32:04 <ihope> Now, according to Hugs, the last element of toinfinity (defined to be 1 : [ a+1 | a <- toinfinity ]) is 246625.
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03:38:56 * ihope suddenly realizes the ChanServ was spying on us
03:41:24 <GregorR> And the aluminum foil helmets don't work!
03:43:27 * ihope dons a +7 Helm of Referential Transparency
03:43:40 <ihope> Oops, wait a minute
03:43:53 * ihope dons a +7 Helm of Referential Opacity
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15:53:05 <Keymaker> hmmm, the language list is quite impressive already
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16:20:29 <jix> Keymaker: are you working on a golf entry?
16:21:13 <Keymaker> at the very moment, actually :)
16:21:35 <jix> i'm able to detect aba as wrong an abbcca too and abbccb too
16:21:35 <Keymaker> yesterday night i thought i got it done, but there seems to be some stupid bug
16:22:00 <jix> but i have some problem if it passes the first test and i need the first test to do my 2nd test
16:22:38 <Keymaker> i wonder if the other have worked on their entries..
16:23:34 <jix> i'm not done (no output and some code is still missing) and i'm at 258bytes
16:25:34 <jix> do you use some debugging tools?
16:26:09 <Keymaker> or well, the interpreter i use prints the final memory state
16:26:53 <jix> it would be cool if bfdebug would support non wrapping
16:27:43 <jix> it displays the memory allows step by step running breakpoints and labeled memory positions (i don't use the last one)
16:28:33 <jix> its very easy to use... it's written by calamari
16:28:52 <Keymaker> ok.. but i still won't use it :)
16:28:57 <jix> how many bytes do you have atm?
16:29:14 <jix> including output?!
16:29:35 <jix> how can you do those tests with only 169 bytes?
16:29:46 <Keymaker> i won't tell, this is a competition :p
16:29:54 <jix> it wasn't a real question
16:30:26 <Keymaker> but just wait, knowing laurent he manages to stuff the whole thing in 250 bytes..
16:31:13 <Keymaker> hopefully he has time to enter
16:31:30 <jix> 246 bytes and far from complete :(
16:34:24 <jix> i think i have to rewrite it
16:34:59 <Keymaker> i'll rewrite mine too, i'm too lazy to search the bug any other way :)
16:35:37 <jix> the problem sounds easy but it's quite difficult to implement
16:39:17 <jix> i'm at 18 bytes ;)
16:52:56 <jix> and i'm again at 95 bytes.. (growing too fast)
17:06:38 <jix> again at 0 bytes
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17:17:35 <jix> i forgot about order in my 2nd try you too?
17:18:25 <Keymaker> but i realized one simple error
17:26:06 <Robdgreat> between the keyboard and the chair, eh
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18:44:25 <Keymaker> i may not win, but at least i have one working solution!!!!!!
19:11:19 <Keymaker> found small bug that happened only if the input was only the new-line char and nothing more, but now it's fixed
19:11:30 <Keymaker> i did a lot testing and the solution should work perfectly
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19:23:10 <Keymaker> i just got my first competition entry done
19:23:19 <Keymaker> i'm about to post the md5 soon
19:23:41 <calamari> I hadn't checked it in a couple days
19:31:03 <calamari> hmm nothing new yet.. guess you'll be the first :)
19:33:12 <lindi-> Keymaker: md5? what for?
19:33:29 <Keymaker> my solution for calamari's competition
19:34:10 <Keymaker> http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=134
19:34:13 <calamari> dont forget to post the size too :)
19:35:26 <calamari> you don't have to, I suppose.. but I thought golf entries usually did? maybe I'm remembering wrong
19:35:47 <Keymaker> yeah, they did, but your rules didn't require it ;)
19:36:48 <calamari> well, I'll amend the rules, but since you submitted before that, you are exempt if you prefer :)
19:38:18 <Keymaker> the actual code is probably as optimized as i can optimize, but the message printings aren't very optimized.. i'll need to try to squeeze them down..
19:38:59 <Keymaker> it was a nice task, i gotta say
19:39:25 <calamari> did the interpreter and stripper work properly?
19:39:47 <Keymaker> stripper worked as supposed to, but i have used another interpreter
19:40:44 <Keymaker> because i always use that interpreter for my brainfuck programming
19:40:57 <Keymaker> it's some simple interpreter written by dbc
19:41:31 <calamari> oic :) no problem.. just paranoid I guess. Some of the changes were done late at night and without much testing
19:42:52 <Keymaker> calamari: you've done any work on your entry yet?
19:43:54 <jix> Keymaker: can you edit your post to include size?
19:43:58 <calamari> so far it can print accepted or rejected depending on the value of a cell :)
19:44:33 <Keymaker> jix: no, i'm too embarrassed! the size grew a lot from the 169..
19:44:46 <Keymaker> i had to add three error routine codes..
19:44:50 <jix> it was without output
19:45:15 <Keymaker> i was just going to say it was without output, but jix got first :)
19:45:27 * calamari better post before Keymaker posts the size.. otherwise I'll be too embarrassed :)
19:46:40 * calamari checks his current wip .. 698 bytes.. but that's with comments and a lot of commented out code
19:47:17 <jix> calamari: do you use bfdebug for debugging bf code? if yes, is there a non wrapping version?
19:47:39 <calamari> yeah I'm using bfdebug.. no there isn't a non-wrapping version.. I should add that, it would be easy
19:47:59 <Keymaker> to say once again; when i rewrote the code i added three error routine codes.. and the output code is 200+ bytes! x(
19:48:31 <calamari> well, I haven't actually done any of the meat of the program yet..
19:50:24 * calamari suspects that if his program is larger than Keymaker's, he will then edit his entry to include the size.. :D
19:50:33 <Keymaker> i know i will have no chances of winning, but at least got one working solution made for my own enjoyment
19:50:57 <calamari> never know.. could win by default
19:51:31 <Keymaker> i have a bad feeling laurent comes up with something extra elegant, like in my second contest..
19:57:32 <Keymaker> just to add, dbc once explained me in very great detail how his random generator program works.. and gotta say it is a H-A-C-K!!
21:07:14 <calamari> jix: http://kidsquid.com/programs/bf/bfdebug-1.70.jar
21:09:09 <calamari> oops I just realized a bug.. don't d/l that yet :)
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22:36:42 <lament> Keymaker: the cellular automaton one?
23:03:58 <jix> calamari: thanks!
23:04:20 <calamari> jix: yw.. let me know if you have problems
23:05:04 * jix launches Jar Bundler
23:05:15 <jix> .jar => .app
23:06:46 * calamari wonders what it looks like on a mac
23:07:09 <calamari> I guess it should be the same for everyone since I'm using metal
23:07:51 <jix> it's native osx theme here
23:09:30 <calamari> maybe java for osx overrides the default
23:09:50 <calamari> jix: care to make a screenshot? :)
23:10:17 <calamari> sometimes seeing a program run in a different environment exposes layout flaws
23:13:27 <jix> the default window size is a bit too small
23:15:34 <jix> http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5349/bild24go.png (the menu title was entered by me in jar bundler)
23:18:45 <calamari> I'm not too crazy about the tabs, but everything else is great
23:19:02 <jix> hmm anther idea...
23:19:18 <jix> 15 memory fields are to few to fill a 19" screen
23:19:46 <jix> and the memory view jumps a bit fast in run mode
23:21:00 <calamari> its supposed to go fast in run mode
23:21:34 <jix> while running code like [->+<] you can't watch the memory view
23:21:35 <calamari> thinking about the options for the 15 fields
23:22:22 <calamari> jix: why not? it seems fine here.. so maybe its a bug?
23:23:55 <jix> it doesn't seem to be a bug.. run >>>>>>>>>>+>>>>+>>+>>>>-[->+<] and try to find the 1 values
23:26:46 <calamari> oh.. are you saying you'd like a speed control?
23:27:06 <jix> no but only move the memory view if the data pointer moves out of it.. don't always center it
23:27:12 <jix> but yes speed control would be cool too
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15:10:45 <Keymaker> kipple: seems they've added my sceql 99 bottles of beer now!
15:10:49 <Keymaker> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-sceql-924.html
15:11:55 <kipple> yeah they've added a lot of languages now
15:12:10 <kipple> guess they finally had the time to review the submissions
15:12:29 <Keymaker> what was the one you submitted?
15:12:55 <kipple> var'aq is probably the least esoteric of the esoteric languages
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22:41:23 <kipple> calamari: bfdebugger looks good, but it behaves
22:42:05 <kipple> argh! it uses all my CPU-cycles when trying to open a file :(
22:54:45 <kipple> probably a java issue and not bfdebugger's fault
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03:07:01 <mad> uh, -> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Object_disoriented
03:07:38 <kipple> hi mad, and welcome :)
03:07:51 <kipple> I just saw your lang on the wiki
03:08:00 <kipple> in fact I just edited the article a bit :)
03:08:29 <mad> It probably needs a bit polishing, no?
03:08:51 <kipple> some simple code examples would be nice
03:09:19 <kipple> it's a bit hard to understand now (or maybe I'm dense)
03:09:54 <mad> hmm, there's an untested brainfuck interpreter linked at the bottom... but you're right, it could definitely use something like a hello world
03:10:18 <kipple> I've seen the bf-interpreter, but it is not exactly easy to comprehend :P
03:10:50 <calamari> "untested" and "bf interpreter" usually don't go well together :)
03:11:16 <calamari> bf is simple but there are many oppotunities for error
03:11:21 <mad> basically, the lang's main selling point is that everything is encapsulated, so you can only access at most 5 variables at the same time
03:12:05 <mad> calmari: Right, I bet it probably has some bugs and doesn't work... but it's always a good test to know if your lang is turing complete, no?
03:13:52 <kipple> mad: I don't see how you can do even simple arithmetics with this language...
03:14:08 <mad> An important data structure it uses is a stack
03:14:16 <mad> And a pair
03:14:45 <mad> A pair is an object that successively returns object A, then object B, then object A, etc...
03:15:43 <mad> It uses the mpair. class to make a pair with two objects, using currying to read the two parameters
03:16:28 <mad> The stack returns A, then returns B, then returns C, etc... until it runs out and just turns into z (null object)
03:17:23 <mad> For numbers, it uses 8 bit stacks... but you can implement them in many ways :)
03:18:31 <mad> As bits, it uses either z (null object), or an object with a function that just activates the parameter's function
03:19:50 <mad> So if you go fab (use a's function on object b), and a is either '0' or '1', and b is a pair, then, if a is 0, the pair stays the same, but if a is 1, the pair is switched.
03:20:40 <mad> Crazy functional programming :)
03:21:51 <mad> But it would be better with, uh, more OOP parody stuff
03:24:17 <mad> The result is that, since there's so few member data, you have to write interfaces for more or less everything, and that there's many different ways to write those interfaces... which possibly comes not that far from actual OOP
03:26:10 <mad> I think it's halfway between unlambda and other similar really insane languages, and standard imperative stuff... it's actually vaguely usable :)
03:26:58 <kipple> It looks interesting. hopefully the article will become easier to understand :)
03:29:26 <mad> yeah, I have to work on that
03:37:43 <mad> hmm, this hello world isn't very neat...
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03:48:21 <mad> well... um... that's it :)
03:50:48 <mad> well, about the language
03:55:43 <mad> I wonder if I should add some other stuff to the wiki
03:56:13 <kipple> what do you mean? what other stuff?
03:56:30 <mad> oh, another vaguely similar lang
03:56:47 <kipple> if it's esoteric then go ahead :)
03:57:02 <mad> functional too, more low level
03:57:07 <Robdgreat> pardon my ignorance; I just got back
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03:58:11 <mad> the one I've just talked about? Something I've just posted to the wiki, "Object disoriented" ( http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Object_disoriented )
03:58:39 <mad> It's a new lang, I guess
04:01:05 <mad> nasty stuff, yeah
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04:14:45 <mad> It possibly has a member variable too much, but I think it's nasty enough.
04:17:06 * GregorR is glad nobody can ever claim his prize of /first/ object oriented esolang :)
04:21:24 <GregorR> What program for GNU/Linux should I package with OBLISK next ...?
04:23:12 <mad> Ah, no, I can't claim that... but can I claim the first functional object oriented esolang? :)
04:23:53 <GregorR> Hmmm, I guess so, if that phrase can be proven to me not completely meaningless ;)
04:25:46 <mad> Well, I'm not sure, but the esolang I've come up with does seem to have a pretty important functional flavour.
04:26:17 <mad> You have to do stuff like currying and recursion
04:27:05 <GregorR> "Since there's no looping statement, recursion must be used." < Hahah, same with ORK :)
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04:38:56 <GregorR> Mmmmmm, flesh of the innocent.
04:40:00 <mad> gregor: Any suggestions you'd make?
04:41:11 <GregorR> I haven't taken a detailed look, but as LORD OF OO ESOLANGS I will.
04:41:19 <GregorR> And will get back to you ;)
04:53:38 <mad> data encapsulation is the best feature of oop to use in tarpits :)
04:54:05 <mad> imho, of course
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18:36:13 <Keymaker> anyways; anyone good with unknown file formats? i mean, there's one old game i'd like to modify, but there are no modding tools for it.. :)
18:36:26 <Keymaker> anyone good inspecting and realizing file formats?
18:36:48 <Keymaker> http://www.bluemoon.ee/history/skyroads/
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19:24:17 <kipple> keymaker: I've almost no experience with figuring out file formats, but I guess it's a bit like esoteric programming ;)
19:24:39 <Keymaker> yeah, although a lot more difficult :)
19:25:10 <Keymaker> perhaps i'll try to figure the format out on my own, someday..
19:25:32 <kipple> what kind of files do you want to mod?
19:25:50 <kipple> are they very complex?
19:26:05 <Keymaker> so the format should be discoverable
19:26:38 <Keymaker> the full version is free and legal to download
19:26:39 <Keymaker> http://www.bluemoon.ee/history/skyroads/
19:26:53 <Keymaker> (that is the site of the team that made the game)
19:27:06 <kipple> looks old. does it require dosbox or something?
19:27:21 <Keymaker> it does if you don't have windows or dos :)
19:27:38 <Keymaker> it's pretty good game, i think
19:28:01 <Keymaker> as well, there is some demo version of it (that i haven't tried), and some x-mas version with new levels and graphics
19:28:06 <Keymaker> so that means i can compare the files
19:28:25 <Keymaker> and that might help to discover the formats
19:31:31 <kipple> yeah the levels look simple enough
19:31:44 <kipple> there seem to be 3 levels per file
19:32:34 <Keymaker> at least i remember so, because i switched some once
19:32:56 <kipple> trekdat.lzs might be the file (?)
19:33:23 <Keymaker> or in the worst case both combined in some bizarre way
19:37:19 <Keymaker> it's annoying how every old game has the files packed in some strange format
19:38:47 <kipple> both the worldN.lzs files and cars.lzs has the same header: "CMAPR". trekdat.lzs and roads.lzs does not
19:39:19 <kipple> guess you just have to try and change some bytes and see what happens
19:39:25 <Keymaker> cars.lzs is probably the graphics
19:39:36 <Keymaker> oh, i think i know where the tracks are, now
19:39:44 <Keymaker> i compared the full and the demo;
19:39:58 <Keymaker> trekdat is equally sized in both of them
19:40:05 <Keymaker> so that probably means there is some other stuff than tracks
19:40:36 * kipple thinks it's probably easier to rewrite entire game than to reverse engineer the track files...
19:41:06 <kipple> well, then it's probably only a 17k file to decipher :) not too bad
19:41:32 <Keymaker> you see, rewriting would be pointless
19:41:38 <Keymaker> the point is to modify the ORIGINAL game!
19:42:18 <Keymaker> as well, the muzax.lzs is equally sized in both versions
19:42:19 <kipple> with 30 tracks that means only about 560 bytes of data per track.
19:42:46 <Keymaker> could it be a music file or something?
19:43:04 <Keymaker> in the best case the game uses some big array, and every level data is equal size
19:43:13 <Keymaker> but i have a bad feeling it won't get that easy
19:43:40 <kipple> there are hardly any 0s in roads.lzs
19:43:56 <Keymaker> and the full x-mas version has the same amount of levels, but the file size is different
19:44:50 * kipple lacks a decent hex editor for windows
19:45:07 <Keymaker> it's pretty decent, and totally free
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19:47:08 <Keymaker> only thing in this game that sucks is the sounds
19:47:13 <Keymaker> but i hope those can be changed later, too :D
19:47:51 <kipple> the sound didn't work for me
19:48:33 <Keymaker> the music i haven't heard, since that doesn't work normally and haven't tried dosbox
19:49:00 <Keymaker> anyways, i'd say we are almost done, only thing we need to is decipher the level format, we at least know where the data is located!
19:49:32 <Keymaker> when that's done i'll make a level editor and small site for it..
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19:51:33 <kipple> a theory: the first word in the file tells how many bytes of level data the first has.
19:52:28 <kipple> that is perhaps not much, but the first level is rather simple
19:52:30 <Keymaker> it's most probably 2 byte integer
19:53:05 <kipple> after the first word and another 124 bytes the next word is 130
19:54:28 <kipple> could be a pattern, but maybe not....
19:54:35 <Keymaker> but after that, it doesn't make sense anymore
19:55:08 <Keymaker> it can be for example amount of "objects" in the level
19:55:54 <Keymaker> as well, probably in this file there is also stored some level settings;
19:56:07 <Keymaker> like how fast the fuel burns in the level
19:56:12 <Keymaker> or what kind of gravity there is
19:56:34 <Keymaker> (if you play it long enough, you'll see)
19:58:34 <kipple> have you tried changing it?
20:05:45 <calamari> nice game.. was just playing it in qemu :)
20:06:16 <Keymaker> nice that you like it :) and, hmmm, i changed data quite randomly in the beginning of the file, but see no difference in game..
20:09:11 <Keymaker> but i don't think so, still :)
20:09:46 <Keymaker> the colour changed to black and the game crashed when i opened the level!
20:09:57 <Keymaker> the terrain looked black, and then it crashed
20:12:59 <Keymaker> another good news is that the size of tracks isn't hard coded anywhere in the exe or something
20:13:38 <Keymaker> oh, and it's now 100% sure roads.lzs is the right file; i replaced it with the x-mas edition track file and it worked just perfectly
20:13:58 <Keymaker> so, it seems the level sizes and stuff are defined in the track file itself
20:15:58 <Keymaker> and when i switched the x-mas version demo tracks to the original full, it still works!
20:16:32 <Keymaker> and if you try to load the levels that don't exist in the demo (levels > 6), it reads null to the level and acts strange
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20:19:42 <Keymaker> when it loads the null level, the gravity-o-meter (or something) shows 2100, so that must be some constant in the game
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22:41:05 <madbrain> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Object_disoriented#Examples <- Wrote a couple of easy examples for object disoriented
22:54:31 <kipple> ha! is that the easiest way to do Hello World? :D
22:56:25 <madbrain> The easiest way is just to do a bunch of oz and o(equivalent to 1) statements
22:57:32 <kipple> well congratulations on making a truly low-level OO-language :)
22:59:28 <kipple> I'm struggling to understand the cat example....
23:00:48 <madbrain> Yeah, haven't written an implementation yet
23:01:27 <GregorR> Ah, well then I guess EgoBot isn't going to support it any time soon :P
23:03:16 <madbrain> I'll possibly need help on the recursion-optimisation-so-that-the-stack-doesn't-explode.. from those functional programming gurus
23:04:20 <kipple> OK, I think I get the cat example :)
23:06:21 <madbrain> mostly I wonder if there's some more or less automatic of doing it, or if that would require solving some impossible problems and it's better just to optimise all the "usable"
23:47:28 <calamari> if I understand correctly, the halting problem only applies to undecidable languages, right? because all decidable languages either accept or reject
23:49:21 <calamari> are there any languages that by their syntax allow any decidable program to be written, but not undecidable? or is that impossible to enforce for the halting problem?
23:50:22 <calamari> I can imagine a string of if statements with no loops.. but I'm not sure that can handle every decidable language
23:51:57 <madbrain> The halting problem is more complex than that... basically, you have a program, which might terminate or have an infinite loop. There is no program that can differentiate for any program ever whether it terminates or not, without either going into an infinite loop for some programs, or simply don't decide for some programs
23:52:36 <calamari> well, that's a function of the language syntax
23:52:47 <calamari> if there are no loops, the program WILL terminate
23:53:19 <calamari> well, I'm consdidering the case where there aren't loops
23:53:21 <madbrain> How do you determine whether these will terminate or not?
23:53:32 <calamari> can that handle all decidable languages?
23:54:19 <madbrain> I'm not sure what were decidable languages...
23:54:33 <madbrain> They're a subclass of turing complete languages?
23:54:33 <calamari> perhaps I need to review the definition.. afk to look it up
23:56:55 <cpressey_> calamari: yes, the halting problem only applies to undecidable languages... in fact, that's what the word "undecidable" basically means: that you can't construct a program that can decide if another program will halt or not
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23:57:51 <madbrain> So the problem is to know whether recursive function stack optimisation is decidable or not?
23:58:14 <calamari> Chris: so I'm curious what a language that accepts only deciders would look like
23:58:43 <calamari> Chris: or does that no make sense? hehe it's hard for me to put this in the correct wording
23:59:26 <calamari> basically a language that doesn't have the halting problem and I can write deciders in
23:59:55 <cpressey> take a turing machine and prove that it always halts.
00:00:39 <calamari> oic.. I guess I need a universal turing machine - minus the udeciable part, don't I :)
00:00:53 <cpressey> just because the halting problem says that, in general, you can't decide whether a TM halts or not, doesn't mean that you can't work it out for a specific TM...
00:01:41 <calamari> I think I'm still grappling for the correct term
00:02:09 <calamari> I can create a language that computes for all finite state machines and never halts
00:02:31 <calamari> I can create a language that computes for all pushdown automata and never halts
00:02:50 <calamari> Can I create a language that computes for all deciders and never halts?
00:03:16 <calamari> the answer should be yes, if I understand correctly
00:03:23 <cpressey> i don't know what you mean by "a language that computes for all Xs"
00:03:58 <calamari> I mean that I can create a programming language where any possible finite state machine is understood and computed
00:04:17 <calamari> so given the syntax, I can type in my fsm and run it
00:04:38 <cpressey> so a language for fsm's, easy enough
00:05:04 <calamari> so the next step is a language for pda's.. no problem either
00:05:05 <cpressey> what do you mean by "and never halts"?
00:05:37 <cpressey> or did you mean "and always halts"?
00:05:48 <calamari> so there is a lnaguage for turing complete languages, for exampel bf.. but it can halt.. so I want to back up one step
00:06:21 <cpressey> ok, i think i can guess at what you're asking
00:06:36 <calamari> so a program run in this language would never halt.. but it would be a decider and not just a pda
00:06:58 <cpressey> but first i'm pretty sure you're typing "never halt" when you mean "always halt" :)
00:07:22 <cpressey> fsm's alwyays halt. (for finite input strings, anyway)
00:08:38 <calamari> you're right.. I want the language to always halt
00:09:54 <calamari> it just seems like there is a missing machine between the universal pda and universal tm, I'd call it the universal decider
00:09:59 <cpressey> ok, so... say you have a language for describing deciders... will it always halt? yes, because deciders always halt. HOWEVER - the problem is - how is it that your language only describes deciders? how do you know that you can't accidentally describe a Turing machine in your language? that's the hard part.
00:10:24 <cpressey> it's probably not impossible though
00:10:34 <cpressey> there are several "missing" languages
00:10:58 <cpressey> it disturbs me slightly that deterministic and non-deterministic PDA's accept different languages
00:11:28 <calamari> right, the deterministic pda is also glossed over .. but still more powerful than a fsm
00:12:26 <calamari> so I guess the question is, is it possible to construct a universal decider?
00:14:11 <calamari> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machines_that_always_halt
00:14:16 <cpressey> well... what exactly do you mean by "universal" in this context? i wasn't aware that there was a "universal" PDA
00:15:51 <calamari> It should be possible to make a programming language that takes any arbitrary pda and computes it..
00:15:55 <cpressey> well... ok, i guess there sort of is, in the weak sense that all context-free languages are equivalent to balanced parentheses... if you ignore the details... but that's sort of unsatisfying
00:16:17 <cpressey> a language-for-describing-pda's
00:16:35 <calamari> so I need a language-for-describing-deciders
00:16:42 <cpressey> but, could that meta-language be processed by a PDA, itself?
00:17:07 <calamari> oic.. universal doesn't work there :)
00:17:43 <cpressey> easier to think about for fsm's though
00:17:59 <calamari> that wiki page I think answers it
00:18:01 <cpressey> would be hard to imagine a language-for-describing-fsm's that could itself be described by an fsm
00:18:08 <calamari> In practice, a machine that always halts can be implemented as a programming language with restricted flow control instructions, so that no program (i.e. description) will ever cause the machine to enter an infinite loop. Note that this does not imply that the language is free of looping capabilities ? all we require is that such loops be finite
00:18:48 <calamari> so basically my if statement language is right.. because that's just a loop unrolling
00:18:50 <cpressey> calamari: check out the book that's referenced on that wiki article, if you can
00:20:11 <calamari> I don't have Brainerd, W.S., Landweber, L.H. (1974), Theory of Computation
00:21:00 <cpressey> what i mean is: check your local math library :) it's not actually a very good book, but they explain what they mean by PL-{GOTO} better than the wiki article does
00:21:51 <calamari> I guess you don't mean the Sipser book, because it doesn't mention PL-GOTO :)
00:22:19 <cpressey> i guess more references were added to that page since i last looked at at
00:22:29 <calamari> that's okay, I whittled it down :)
00:22:29 <cpressey> yeah, i meant brainerd & landweber.
00:23:28 <cpressey> indefinate loan, so long as i keep remembering to renew it online :)
00:23:31 <calamari> ahh.. does it describe lambda calculus?
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00:27:11 <cpressey> ok.... looks like the last chapter talks a little about lambda calc, but, the chapter is really about combinatory logic (SKI calculus) so it looks mostly incidental
00:27:58 <calamari> looks like I can buy it from amazon.com for 55 cents :)
00:29:30 <calamari> I don't think I can go wrong for that price.. snagging it
00:44:11 <cpressey> calamari: btw, you might be interested in this: for one of my classes we get to do a project where we do some static analysis of Java code... I was thinking of doing some sort of halting analysis... basically, for each method of an object, determine if it is guaranteed to always halt :)
00:49:44 <calamari> which class? they mentioned static analysis in my computer engineering class
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00:52:19 <cpressey> "definition of programming languages"
00:52:54 -!- zerozero has quit (Client Quit).
00:53:36 <cpressey> which is actually a pretty cool course overall. i thought it would be easy, but i've actually learned quite a bit
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01:36:13 <lament> heh, i'm taking a course called that
01:37:25 <lament> you're not in my university are you?
01:37:42 <lament> static analysis of java code is the project we're doing as well...
01:41:05 <lament> you better not turn out to be fromD my uni, cause then i'd have to buy you a beer or something.
02:06:08 <cpressey> lament: does the name "Spotty Dotty" mean anything to you?
02:06:15 <lament> cpressey: jesus christ
02:06:30 <cpressey> you must not read the names of the posters on webct :)
02:06:50 <lament> i can't say i particularly care about that course
02:07:09 <lament> anyway, i'm the guy who sits in the front row and showed up in a mask for hallDoween
02:08:36 <cpressey> yeah, i suspected - since your name isn't exactly common
02:11:03 <lament> anyway, i must go now - see you tomorrow i guess... bizarre
02:12:28 <cpressey> ok, cya tomorrow :) bizarre, indeed.
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05:34:20 <Keymaker> whoaly sh!t.. does this mean lament and cpressey are in the same university?!
05:34:52 <Keymaker> what are the odds for that happening?
05:35:29 <calamari> well, I dunno.. maybe people in candaa are crazier than the rest of the world.. might skew the stats ;)
05:39:10 <GregorR> Don't you mean "It is a statistically proven fact that"
05:40:33 * calamari suggests that GregorR read the book "How to lie with statistics"
05:42:26 <calamari> GregorR: http://www.jhuapl.edu/newscenter/pressreleases/2005/051109.asp
05:42:36 <GregorR> Yes, I've heard of the book.
05:42:41 <GregorR> (Don't know if that's what that link is though :P)
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06:29:14 <GregorR> You walked into that brick wall ;)
06:29:38 <lament> I'm not stupid! I'm neuron challenged!
06:31:22 <Keymaker> ha! discovered some new things from roads.lzs! :D gotta go to skool now. :/
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13:50:34 <Keymaker> now i know where in the file the level data is read from
13:51:09 <kipple> what have you found out so far?
13:52:15 <Keymaker> :) in every level data piece there's the variables for how fast o2 goes down etc..
13:52:23 <Keymaker> but the actual level format is still bizarre
13:52:30 <Keymaker> i've tried changing things but it's just crazy
13:52:44 <Keymaker> i've managed to change colours
13:53:03 <Keymaker> i have no idea how the level pieces are formed, and how the coordinates are set
13:53:42 <Keymaker> once i changed only two bytes a bit, and the whole level got very strange
13:53:52 <Keymaker> so i have no idea how the blocks are placed
13:57:52 <kipple> well, I guess you just have to try more...
13:58:42 <Keymaker> actually at the moment i'm in hex editor..
14:01:52 <Keymaker> i suppose the format needs to be correct.. x)
14:08:54 <Keymaker> trekdat sounds like trackdata, so i suppose there's something vital inside, but i'd assume it's the 3d models
14:10:14 <kipple> seen this: http://skystreets.kaosfusion.com/ ?
14:10:48 <Keymaker> yeah. the "clone" sucks, and the author hasn't discovered any files except sounds
14:10:59 <Keymaker> and iirc he doesn't tell the format on the page either
14:12:57 <kipple> well the source code is available, so if you need to mod the sounds you could look at those
14:13:20 <Keymaker> yeah, although iirc the clone had own sounds, not the original ones
14:13:56 <Keymaker> by the way, just discovered muzax.lzs is really the music file, and not any game related
14:14:19 <Keymaker> i renamed the file and started the game, and when toggled the music on it crashed, since couldn't find the music file
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14:18:59 <Keymaker> i really hope they don't have any bizarre compression of their own..
14:27:45 <Keymaker> trekdat seems to be exactly same in the different versions
14:28:13 <Keymaker> that means that the level data should be entirely in roads.lzs
14:32:09 <jix> .lzs lz is often lempel-ziv (compression (but there are different lz variants)
14:33:50 <jix> could you send me the roads.lzs file?
14:34:54 <Keymaker> http://www.bluemoon.ee/history/skyroads/skyroads.zip
14:36:37 <Keymaker> hmm, this is interesting -- it says on some page that Lempel-Ziv(-Welch) is a popular data compression often used in images
14:36:57 <Keymaker> it could make sense that the level data would be pictures, instead
14:37:35 <jix> yeah lzw is used in gif
14:37:45 <jix> lz77 is used in zip and gzip (in combination with huffman)
14:37:51 <jix> and in png
14:38:06 <jix> lzw was patented until april05 lz77 was always patent-free
14:38:16 <jix> that's why png uses lz77 instead of lzw
14:38:34 <Keymaker> ok :) i don't know much about compression..
14:39:03 <kipple> a lot of the lzs files share the same header CMAPr, but some don't so there is at least two different file formats I think
14:39:26 <Keymaker> yeah, all that have those are images in the game
14:39:56 <Keymaker> too all the files use the same extension for some reason
14:40:09 <kipple> anyway, it was pretty common to use the same extension on all data files regardless of format in the old days (perhaps now too)
14:40:10 <Keymaker> maybe they are all compressed with lzs, whatever it is
14:40:33 <kipple> I doubt the extension says anything at all, but it's worth checking out I guess
14:40:50 <Keymaker> yeah, but why would they use lzs?
14:41:22 <jix> maybe 0x10 0x00 0x00 0x00 is a little-endian adress (byte 13)
14:41:46 <jix> HELPMENU.LZS
14:42:02 <jix> idea! cmap == color map it contains the pallette data... PICT == picture data, contains the picture
14:42:03 <kipple> I doubt they use 32bit ints
14:42:59 <jix> and the space between CMAP and PICT are 51 bytes thats 17 3 byte pairs
14:43:42 <Keymaker> there's only ten ways to find that out, and i'll try the first: hex editoring the file
14:43:50 <kipple> I think you're on to something there. but it doesn't help for the levels
14:44:03 <Keymaker> nope, but i want to change graphics too :D
14:45:55 <Keymaker> i changed the first 3F 3F 3F of helpmenu to 3F 00 00 (red), and texts that were white show up red now
14:52:19 <Keymaker> i don't know what format it is, or how to conver it to some other format, but i know one thing: one image file can have more than one image. the helpfile has the two help screens inside it
15:01:25 <Keymaker> it's very probable the roads.lzs uses that lzw (or something) compression
15:02:23 <Keymaker> there probably are track pieces that are just connected to each other
15:04:37 <kipple> I think it's a bit unlikely that they've compressed the level data. the levels are so simple that compressing wouldn't save that much space. And decompressing is expensive on old computers
15:05:10 <Keymaker> but there's some compression in almost every game
15:08:39 <Keymaker> and there got to be something in this, too. for example, each row can have stuff on 3 level, on 7 places. that's 21 per row. and if one level has for example 100 rows, and three bytes for rgb value, that'd make 6300 bytes. even more if the stuff would be represented as integers. and the demo roads.lzs is 4k and has six tracks :)
15:10:55 <kipple> that is only if they're stored as "tiles". they could be areas
15:11:41 <kipple> and they don't need 3 bytes for color. only one
15:11:46 <Keymaker> but that'd probably mean trekdat is filled with different areas, that all of the versions use
15:12:14 <Keymaker> but there are colours that use three bytes, in the roads
15:12:27 <Keymaker> for example, i just today changed couple of them to pink, white etc..
15:12:53 <Keymaker> there definitely is colours in rgb form, in roads.lzs
15:14:00 <kipple> the video mode is MCGA I think, which only handles 256 colors (at teh same time)
15:14:12 <kipple> so there is probably a palette defined somewhere
15:14:38 <Keymaker> hmmm, the colours can be from 0 0 0 to 63 63 63 in this one
15:14:58 <Keymaker> and i have no idea how it works.. :\
15:15:22 <Keymaker> if one sets values larger than 3F (63) the colours go strange
15:15:38 <kipple> perhaps the palette has only defined 63 colors...
15:16:36 <kipple> if that is the case, then color info could possibly be stored in 6 bit integers
15:17:11 <Keymaker> yes, but i think they wouldn't try to save space that much :)
15:17:21 <kipple> don't be too sure of that
15:17:45 <fizzie> Standard VGA only has 6 bits of color for each channel.
15:18:14 <kipple> we might be on to something... :)
15:19:59 <fizzie> IIRC the palette control registers take values between 0x00 - 0x3f, too, although can't be sure of that - it's been ages since I last wrote anything that accessed hardware directly. :p
15:21:05 <Keymaker> grrh. i wish this format can be discovered some day..
15:21:44 <Keymaker> naturally we could read the exe in assembler.. and try to find out what it does.. :)
15:22:28 <Keymaker> ..but it's not that easy job..
15:37:24 <Keymaker> i wish i'd get the original level editor they used..
16:30:08 <fizzie> I've been disassembling it with ida-pro a bit, but it's still a.. mess: http://gehennom.org/~fis/skyroads-graph.png But at least I've located the fopen/fread-like functions. Next I should figure out what the routines that use those do.
16:30:47 <fizzie> I'd like to get a linux version of that thing, though - using wine is a pain.
16:32:56 <fizzie> Although I think the linux version lacks the rather usable GUI.
16:34:53 <fizzie> Now I need to go grocery-shopping. ->
16:35:30 <Keymaker> or did you mean linux version of that program? probably.. :\
16:40:22 <Keymaker> anyways, hopefuly you'll discover something, every piece of info is required! :)
16:44:15 <fizzie> I have an unverified guess that the first 128 bytes of ROADS.LZS is a header of some sort. It's too symmetric to be anything else:
16:44:18 <fizzie> fis@colin:~/tmp/skyroads$ hexdump -n 128 -x ROADS.LZS
16:44:20 <fizzie> 0000000 007c 08c0 02cb 0302 0432 064a 064c 0348
16:44:23 <fizzie> 0000010 07af 0524 096b 06e4 0b42 02a0 0c9e 0348
16:44:26 <fizzie> 0000020 0e10 05cc 101a 03d4 117c 046e 1332 0ae2
16:44:28 <fizzie> 0000030 15b9 08f8 17aa 0620 1a02 0cf6 1dc2 0afe
16:44:36 <fizzie> 0000040 21b4 077e 23d2 085e 25f9 08ea 282c 080a
16:44:36 <fizzie> 0000050 29ef 0a2c 2c6a 071c 2e86 08c0 30d5 0c40
16:44:36 <fizzie> 0000060 342a 048a 35ea 0834 37c0 0a72 3a91 0914
16:44:40 <fizzie> 0000070 3c66 0ccc 3ea7 0770 40c4 0af0 0008 0082
16:45:44 <fizzie> Note that for even columns, the higher byte seems to always be <0x10, and in odd columns it's ~0x00-0x40 and the numbers are monotonically increasing.
16:46:34 <Keymaker> i've discovered that, i'll upload my notes soon
16:49:25 <jix> i'm going to reverse engineer the picture files
16:49:52 <jix> and that without a x86 cpu!
16:49:57 <jix> (or emulator)
16:50:41 <Keymaker> jix: if you can, document everything! :)
16:50:55 <jix> i'm going to do that
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17:22:57 <Keymaker> fizzie: here's my notes about the header http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/skyroads/roads.txt
17:23:07 <Keymaker> here's an ugly site for this project: http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/skyroads/
17:24:39 * calamari notes, INT 10h, AX=1010h, Set Individual DAC Register..
17:25:32 <calamari> I should also note that quickbasic had the same 0-63 limitations.. so that's mildly scary ;)
17:25:49 <calamari> Keymaker: that's in my book, pc interrupts
17:26:15 <calamari> Keymaker: you can also look it up online, http://www.ctyme.com/rbrown.htm
17:28:07 <calamari> the executable doesn't appear to be compressed
17:29:42 <calamari> uses pupses and pops for function calls
17:30:44 <calamari> definitely not compiled quickbasic
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17:31:51 <Keymaker> and, it's most probably done in c or pascal, i'd guess.. may be assembler too
17:35:20 * GregorR is so glad he has long hair.
17:35:29 * GregorR never needs to buy a scarf.
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17:43:11 <GregorR> Or earmuffs for that matter.
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17:56:13 <fizzie> It doesn't much look like compiled C either. A lot of functions pass parameters in registers, although some do use the stack too.
17:56:31 <Keymaker> fizzie, noticed that link about the header?
17:57:09 <fizzie> I'll continue digging around the disassembled exe when I have some free time. Must eat, and then there's some work to do.
17:57:32 <GregorR> It could very well have been written in ASM ... I mean, this is DOS ...
17:58:04 <Keymaker> the game is quite old, and it's 3d
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19:23:38 <calamari> after I logged off I realized I said it wrong.. the function is the one pushing and popping, to protect the registers at call
19:23:56 <calamari> anyhow.. next class in a few mins ;)
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01:46:58 <kipple> puh. that was one marathon wiki-editing session ...
01:47:11 <kipple> anyway, the year categories are back! :)
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04:24:47 * kipple likes mediawiki templates
04:26:36 <kipple> recursion is your friend :)
04:27:09 <GregorR> void recursion() { printf("recursion is your friend :)\n"); recursion(); } int main() { recursion(); }
04:27:23 <madbrain> recursion means you don't have to implement a looping construct :)
04:28:44 <puzzlet> afaik mediawiki's template recursion is allowed but to the limit of 3 or something
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11:26:21 <Keymaker> ah, home sweet home. at the moment i should be at the math class but i decided not to attend, for several reasons.
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12:56:04 <kipple> We beat you :) started snowing yesterday here
12:56:38 <Keymaker> grhh, guess what? now it stopped raining already..
12:56:54 <Keymaker> i just turned my head left and noticed..
12:58:05 <Keymaker> something is seriously wrong when you can walk your jacket open and without gloves or hat at this time of the year
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13:06:13 <Keymaker> is today tuesday or wednesday?
13:06:48 <Keymaker> well, the sooner the weekend, the better
13:31:52 <calamari> it hasn't snowed here in years... :(
13:33:16 <ineiros> fizzie: But at least there's frost.
13:36:11 <Keymaker> fizzie: too bad :( around here there was snow for couple of days about a month ago, but there hasn't been a flake since then.. until now
13:36:34 <Keymaker> i hope the snow that stays would come soon
13:38:31 <fizzie> We had a day of snow ~a month ago too.
13:41:35 <fizzie> Nice documentation here:
13:41:37 <fizzie> You can override DefaultServlet with you own implementation and use that in your web.xml declaration. If you can undertand what was just said, we will assume yo can read the code to DefaultServlet servlet and make the appropriate adjustments. (If not, then that method isn't for you)
14:06:00 <calamari> does this page work for anybody? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonsillolith
14:06:58 <calamari> weird.. I can get to other wikipedia pages, but that one just sits there and spins
14:07:43 <calamari> copying and pasting the url into a new window did the trick
14:10:45 <calamari> cool.. maybe I'll try that hydrogen peroxide trick.. pencil wasn't working
14:13:35 <calamari> I'd previously assumed it was a piece of decayed food that found its way back up.
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15:07:58 <Keymaker> i'll go to try to get something to eat
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16:11:03 <jix> moin Keymaker
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20:24:59 <kipple> hmm. looks like the years 1994-1996 were bad year for esoteric programming languages.
20:27:34 <kipple> in fact, that goes all up until 2000
20:28:33 <kipple> 2005 looks to be one of the best :)
20:29:04 <kipple> hwo goes your skyroads project?
20:29:23 <Keymaker> i was just going to say that the boom started when the millenium changed..
20:29:42 <Keymaker> i mean, i haven't managed to discover the level format
20:30:11 <kipple> but the millennium started in 2001... :P
20:31:31 <Keymaker> i assume everyone got annoyed of the "normal" languages and wanted something with less instructions
20:41:24 <calamari> there.. added some 2000 & 2001 action for ya :)
20:42:51 <Keymaker> calamari: honestly, i got an idea to make esolang based on the towers of hanoi, before i found out you had done it already
20:43:09 <Keymaker> but i couldn't decide what instructions to use etc..
20:43:31 <Keymaker> but naturally your language had been out for four years at the time i got the idea :)
20:45:07 <calamari> well, maybe you can do better than I did with a version 2
20:45:46 <calamari> having the same name and different lang would make it more esoteric.. right? :)
20:46:38 <Keymaker> oops, i read wrong, i read it that you had version 2 somewhere.. :)
20:47:10 <calamari> nope... I was thinking of making a spaghetti 2 tho
20:47:39 <Keymaker> by the way, numberix was among the first esolang specs i read :) the language is somehow old school
20:49:13 <calamari> thanks :) I was hoping for that
20:49:51 <calamari> it's really a hack of a language tho.. I threw a bunch of different ideas together.. not much of a theme
20:50:46 <Keymaker> iirc when i read the specs in web it had some blue page and there was some calamari picture
20:50:58 <calamari> when I was writing the bf interpreter in spaghetti there were some parts that were clumsy.. could probably be fixed
20:51:51 <calamari> Keymaker: this? http://calamari.8k.com/numberix/
20:52:21 <calamari> I'm very surprised that site is still working
20:52:43 <calamari> it was free hosting and they switched to pay (or get deleted).. I guess they missed me
20:53:24 <calamari> maybe they decided not to go pay.. still has a free ad
20:53:59 <Keymaker> ..and i couldn't understand the calamari picture on the site, it felt even more esoteric :)
20:54:19 <calamari> the picture was a link to my old homepage
20:54:45 <Keymaker> but back then i didn't know of your screen name and so on
20:54:46 <calamari> the squid lives on, here: kidsquid.com
20:55:23 <Keymaker> but these days seeing three lemon slices as logo makes perfect sense..
20:55:27 <calamari> I "borrowed" the pic from an online aquarium a LONG time ago..
20:57:31 <calamari> it was a esolang creation contest
20:57:55 <calamari> I think it ran 2 or 3 times but was ended when there was only one entry
20:58:10 <Keymaker> perhaps they should be ran again :)
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05:03:00 <lament> cpressey: i didn't see you in cpsc311!
05:06:23 <lament> no, i just don't know what he looks like
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05:29:21 <cpressey> lament: i'm the guy with the beard who usually sits three or four rows back on the left but adjacent to the aisle
05:30:00 <lament> cpressey: it's a cs course! Everybody has a beard!
05:30:07 <lament> well, like two people do
05:30:35 <cpressey> oh, well in that case, you should know that i wear glasses, too.
05:31:47 <lament> could you be any more stereotypical?!
05:33:03 <lament> okay, i'll look for you
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07:21:02 <puzzlet> lament, i never noticed you had been playing idle RPG
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07:38:58 <puzzlet> i've gone as far as Oracle at the best games
07:39:14 <puzzlet> down to like 6th floor or something
07:39:28 <GregorR-L> I've gotten to the 20-something'th.
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08:22:57 <Keymaker> my second version to the brainfuck competition is done
08:23:46 <GregorR> I want to drink a Moxie ...
08:23:55 <GregorR> And I need to go to sleep.
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18:30:02 <jix> german snacks?
18:30:34 <Keymaker> at least its bought from Lidl, so i assume it's german
18:31:25 <Keymaker> and the texts are first in german..
18:31:42 <kipple> so you've got Lidl in Finland as well?
18:32:05 <kipple> they recently arrived here in Norway (with some controversy)
18:32:23 <jix> lidl has tasty bitter lemon...
18:33:03 <kipple> I tasted their beer last weekend. that was rather crappy (just let them stay on the wall!)
18:33:26 <jix> which beer was it?
18:33:40 <kipple> don't remember. a friend of mine bought it
18:33:46 * jix doesn't like beer at all (except 99 bottles of it ;) )
18:33:47 <kipple> the bottles were really long though
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18:50:31 <calamari> blah.. aciddentally pressed enter and the wiki submitted prematurely
19:01:40 <kipple> well, it's better than accidentally closing the browser window...
19:08:41 * calamari notes that many of the languages on http://web.archive.org/web/20000817232901/www.catseye.mb.ca/lala/index.html aren't in the wiki
19:09:31 <kipple> hmm. something should be done about that.
19:09:37 <kipple> does specs still exist for those?
19:11:08 <calamari> just follow the links from the site above
19:11:48 <calamari> I've been adding them to the language list as I find them, but I was mostly adding years not articles :)
19:12:05 <calamari> I also found bak.. needs a lot of work
19:12:25 <calamari> (found as in found a page with info about it)
19:13:22 <calamari> a lot of these langs don't have dates.. so I've been relying on file dates from interpreters and the wb machine archives, etc.. I can usually find something
19:14:10 <calamari> so far I don't have years for: 23, Aheui, and Automouse (sometime before 2000)
19:15:20 <Keymaker> hmm, yeah, many names i've never even heard
19:15:44 <kipple> and a lot of them are by chris too. are they not on the new site?
19:16:31 <calamari> dunno.. I just discovered them when looking up the year of am old lang on chris's original site
19:16:47 <calamari> they could also be on the new site, but a lot isn't
19:18:00 <calamari> this link is probably better.. as it's newer
19:18:01 <calamari> http://web.archive.org/web/20030211031900/http://www.catseye.mb.ca/lala/index.html
19:29:11 <calamari> okay I stopped at Braintwist :) will continue another day
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22:07:14 * calamari loves going into the UofA science library.. it's a nerd paradise.. 5 floors of journals and technical books
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22:12:47 * calamari needs to find a good book on digital disc laser head tracking
22:32:19 <calamari> anyone have access to pkzipfix ?
22:32:53 * GregorR watches the subject of calamari's conversation bounce around.
22:35:35 <calamari> GregorR: I've been wanting to create a digital copy of my analog star wars laserdiscs
22:36:22 <calamari> GregorR: I finally found a book that got me most of the way after the data is read, but first of course I must read the data
22:37:19 <calamari> seems like the easiest way would be to sacrifice an existing ld player and use its laser and hardware assembly, but I'll need to replace the brains of it
22:38:13 <GregorR> And what does this have to do with pkzipfix?
22:38:39 <calamari> it has to do with the science library :)
22:38:52 <calamari> and then I started researching language dates again
22:39:11 <calamari> and found old 96-98 mailing list archives, but the zip was corrupted
22:40:36 <GregorR> And how do you adjust for timezone in C? >_O
22:42:35 <calamari> seems that the mailing list started off with befunge discussion exclusively
22:46:17 <kipple> the list started out as the Befunge Mailing List according to http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Chris_Pressey
22:46:38 <calamari> cool, just got to the Blank announcement on the Befunge list :)
22:50:05 * calamari may need to go back and delete all the dates based on the wb machine
22:54:48 <calamari> temporary repaired archive location: http://kidsquid.com/bfml.zip
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05:45:38 <lament> cpressey: i still didn't see you!
05:46:36 <GregorR> Maybe, after all that, you're just in insanely similar classes :)
05:47:36 <lament> no way another class would have Spotty Dotty.
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06:56:22 <puzzlet_> http://tokigun.dnip.net/test/mediawiki/index.php?title=Template:AddTable&action=edit
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21:14:39 <calamari> there.. all the easy year adds are done.. the rest will need additional research (specs, file dates, etc)
21:18:15 <calamari> thanks.. it's kinda fun researching the history of these :)
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21:32:26 <graue> at one time, I was thinking about making a language in which programs would look like software licenses, like, EULAs and the GPL and such
21:33:02 <graue> I eventually abandoned the idea, but here are a few "programs" I wrote while imagining how the language might work: http://infestationgardens.net/files/hello.license http://infestationgardens.net/files/beer.license
21:35:45 <calamari> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User_talk:Calamari
21:36:24 <calamari> now I can work on the history project without carrying scraps of paper around :)
21:37:28 <graue> I'm pretty sure Aheui was invented in 2005
21:37:44 <graue> try grepping the #esoteric logs for the first mention of it
21:38:02 <calamari> graue: good idea.. I hadn't thought of using the logs.. thanks
21:38:25 <graue> the Fm family of languages aren't really esoteric programming languages, but they were written up in 2005 by that r.e.s. guy, I think
21:38:43 <graue> LNUSP was almost certainly invented in 2003 around the same time as PATH and SNUSP
21:39:14 <calamari> graue: I wasn't sure what to do with Fm as the category was only for languages
21:39:25 <graue> Sceql is definitely from 2005; I discussed it on the wiki when I first invented it
21:39:32 <graue> Qdeql is also from 2005
21:41:10 <graue> Cvlemar and Network Headache are probably 2005; I doubt the author had invented them long before adding them to the wiki
21:41:52 <graue> GraNoLa/M was a submission to the second Essies, so it dates to 2002
21:41:57 <calamari> graue: your license language reminds me of another esolang, but I can't quite put a finger on it :) I like it
21:42:53 <graue> Shakespeare, possibly?
21:43:03 <calamari> not sure.. the other lang used similar english-style declarations
21:45:13 <calamari> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Chef
21:47:54 <jix> i invented subskin in 2005
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21:51:12 <graue> I guess you didn't notice me saying I invented Sortle, Qdeql, and Sceql in 2005?
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21:52:38 <calamari> graue: yes I did.. thanks.. still workin on em
21:54:10 <kipple> graue: I like your license lang :)
21:58:10 <kipple> wow. 2005 has a LOT of languages compared to the others...
21:58:25 <kipple> I suspect the creation of the wiki has a big part in that
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22:01:52 <calamari> did you create any of these langs? http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User_talk:Calamari
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22:02:31 <kipple> I remember Homespring was announced on the mailing list a while back. I think I can dig it up
22:03:14 <kipple> it was posted 15.04.2003
22:06:08 <calamari> I know there are some langs form the mailing list that aren't on the wiki.. I remembered Spaz and added it yesterday
22:15:29 <Keymaker> graue: the license langauge idea looks nice
22:21:13 <kipple> hmm. the Sorted! home page says it won the eso awards in 2000, but the wiki says it was in 2001, and that that was the FIRST eso awards...
22:21:49 <Keymaker> i guess the page maker has made a mistake, then
22:22:14 <kipple> the files in the distribution are dated december 2000
22:22:23 <calamari> kipple: yeah.. the wiki page seems to conflict.. I messed with it but probably not for the best
22:22:31 <kipple> so, it is correct that the eso awards started in 2001?
22:22:54 <calamari> the deadline just kept getting pushed back until they became the 2001
22:23:15 <kipple> though I think sorted! should be dated to 2000
22:23:20 <calamari> can you give a url for the file date?
22:23:34 <kipple> http://p-nand-q.com/humor/programming_languages/sorted_/sorted.tar.bz2
22:23:57 <kipple> anyway, that dates Shakespeare to 2001
22:24:45 <kipple> the shakespeare spec mentions sorted as a reference, and that it was created in february
22:24:56 <kipple> the spec was last updated in 2001
22:25:37 <calamari> kipple: feel free to edit the wiki.. I don't want to take credit for your research and it takes longer to add quotes from you, etc :)
22:35:52 <kipple> added 2000 to TMMLPTEALFJwhatever
22:39:03 <calamari> thanks.. also thanks for adding a reason.. I've been trying to do that also
22:39:18 <kipple> yeah, I learned that from you :)
22:42:17 <kipple> java2k: 2000 (who would've guessed?) - original impl. date
22:45:22 <kipple> smith#: 2000 (windows impl)
22:52:13 <calamari> redgreen 1999 chris's old page
23:05:35 <calamari> I love the descriptions made for these old languages: "ILLGOL in short: Take three parts Perl, two parts Basic, two parts Fortran. Marinate for six hours in Budweiser and canola oil. Boil until pulped and serve with a side of Intercal."
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23:32:03 <kipple> damn, Chris has made a lot of languages :D
23:32:24 <kipple> it's almost like we should have a separate Chris Pressey category for languages ......
23:33:04 <calamari> I've been adding stubs for some that were missing
23:33:26 <calamari> does this seem like a joke or a real language: http://web.archive.org/web/20030223112205/www.catseye.mb.ca/esoteric/turkeyb/index.html
23:34:16 <calamari> some of the descriptions are so elaborate it makes it seem like a joke (because of the Intercal-style humor).. but it could still be a real lang
23:34:16 <kipple> well it's definately a joke (but that doesn't necessarily prevent it from being a real language)
23:35:04 <calamari> I'll call it lang until Chris or someone involved in it steps forward
23:40:20 <calamari> well, I think that's it for http://web.archive.org/web/20030211031900/http://www.catseye.mb.ca/lala/index.html
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00:27:38 <calamari> does Haifu in 2005 seem right ?
00:43:27 <kipple> no, but I could be wrong...
00:47:02 <kipple> it was added to the language list in wikipedia in sept. 2003
00:47:15 <kipple> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_esoteric_programming_languages&oldid=1406250
00:47:54 <kipple> I suspect it is from 2000-2001 as most of DMM's languages
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00:49:07 <calamari> I sent an email to David Morgan-Mar as I noticed several langs by him I didn't have dates for
00:49:22 <kipple> yeah, that's probably the best way to do it :)
00:49:27 <calamari> so hopefully I'll be able to get better dates for his langs
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08:33:35 <calamari> uncovered a lang from the sange.fi mailing list: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Dumbf%2Ack
08:41:55 <kipple> nice work detective :)
08:52:59 <calamari> seems that I had just forgotten about it... because I later post my approval of it hehe
08:54:53 <kipple> well there are so many bf-clones. can't expect to remember them all
08:59:11 <calamari> new lang http://web.archive.org/web/20011107102634/http://www.guldheden.com/~sandin/when/When.txt
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11:18:58 <calamari> wow.. 4am and I'm still not done with 2001.. oh well :)
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11:46:18 <jix> i'm working on bfgentext again
11:47:52 <jix> i need to do something until my gp2x arrives (it's on the way from korea to UK atm... UK to germany is the next stage. Somewhere in germany to me is the last stage)
12:56:22 <jix> my sort is 2 bytes longer than the shortest i found :(
13:03:36 <jix> my version: >>,[[-[->>+<<]+>>]<+<[-<<]>>,]+[>[-<.>]<[->>+<<]>>+] (using byte counting)
13:03:55 <jix> Daniel B Cristofani's version: >>,[>>,]<<[[-<+<]>[>[>>]<[.[-]<[[>>+<<-]<]>>]>]<<]
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17:48:17 <nooga> who knows something about graphs?
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18:34:58 <jix> bfgentext is about getting usable
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19:31:13 <jix> moin calamari
19:52:32 <jix> my first lhs is done 90%
19:56:37 <jix> lisp is really a cool language
19:56:56 <jix> somewhat esoteric but fast and has really cool features
19:57:22 <jix> yeah but i need speed and there are better lisp implementations for osx
20:04:01 <calamari> is it possible to create a link to a category in an article, without becoming that category?
20:04:30 <calamari> I could copy the entire url but that seems bad
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20:06:09 <jix> Keymaker: i'm modifying my bfgentext to support wrapping and unwrapping code (but only 8-bit because non 8bit is stupid for text output)
20:06:40 <jix> left hand side...
20:06:53 <jix> not important unless you know how the program generates the bf code
20:07:15 <jix> it does it in 2 passes.. one is the lhs the other one is the rhs
20:07:57 <jix> my bf output text generator
20:08:07 <jix> like textgen.java but in lisp and a bit more flexible
20:08:15 <Keymaker> yes, but you're talking about bfgentext, right?
20:11:33 <jix> calamari: does textgen.java use wrapping or nonwrapping bf?
20:12:40 <jix> i first wrote wrapping code only but it was only a little change to allow wrapping in the written part too
20:13:24 <calamari> to do wrapping I'd need a way to compute the result of a wrap very quickly
20:13:53 <calamari> I think at one time I'd figured it out, but then I've forgotten
20:15:25 <calamari> jix: for example ---[>----<+]>
20:16:13 <jix> that (3*-4)&0xFF
20:19:51 <calamari> ahh this is better.. no 1: ----[>---<--]>++ = 136
20:24:48 <calamari> I believe the equation is 254 mod x = 252
20:30:47 <calamari> I know of no O(n) solution to that.. there are algorithms to find it but they take several steps or there may not be a solution
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22:22:55 <jix> calamari: if you want tables for set_to_x[sub_y>add_z<] you could take a look at my bf2a.rb look up tables
22:24:45 <jix> calamari: is your textgen.java still under 'active' development?
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22:31:26 <calamari> but it is gpl, so you may change it however you like
22:33:59 <jix> hehe no my bfgentext isn't for from complete... i was just interested whether you are still trying to improve it or not
22:40:38 <calamari> probably not.. but who knows.. someday it may become very interesting to me again.. can't predict these things :)
22:51:04 <KevinN> calamari, you're a pro, aren't you?
23:11:13 <jix> KevinN: a pro?
23:12:19 <jix> a professional what?
23:13:10 <KevinN> a pro in matters of language-design and stuff...
23:19:27 <KevinN> I think that every turing-complete language can be converted into a turing-tarpit consisting of only 2 operators...
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23:37:56 <calamari> KevinN: I think I'm far from being a pro.. but thank you for the compliment :)
23:39:02 <KevinN> to come to the interesting part: I think the way I've found does work for every language there is so far...
23:41:45 <KevinN> I call it IM (or: "In-Memory")...
23:41:56 <KevinN> you have to think of it as a kind of brainfuck...
23:42:10 <KevinN> however, in a special sense of way...
23:42:31 <KevinN> you take language A that allows N different characters as input...
23:43:16 <KevinN> your source is written on a tape... its pointer can only be moved to the right and the value of the current cell can only be incremented by one...
23:43:53 <KevinN> the minimum value of a cell can be zero (no character) and the maximum value can be N
23:44:11 <KevinN> now you write the whole source onto the tape...
23:44:50 <KevinN> when you're tape-writing-source (in the so-called IM-language) comes to its end, the source that was written ONTO the tape is executed...
23:45:45 <KevinN> to make it simple: you write for example C - code onto the tape and that C - code is executed after writing the code onto the tape...
23:47:29 <calamari> if the original source is executed, is'not more than 2 operators?
23:48:54 <KevinN> well... I think operator is the wrong word... operand should be more correct...
23:49:12 <calamari> for example I could make a language that you just said B for the "code", but then fed a bf program to standard input.. now all B programs are alike and one characters but the language is really defined by the interpreter of B
23:49:39 <KevinN> it consists of the > - operand (move right) and the + - operand (increment)
23:50:30 <KevinN> everything is done in-memory... ;)
23:50:45 <KevinN> so you need some kind of second interpreter or so...
23:51:11 <calamari> right, but having a second interpreter (IMO) means that whatever the 2nd interpreter does added to the operators
23:51:13 <KevinN> one that understands the IM-source (>+++++>+++>+++++ etc.) and one that understands that source that's written on the tape...
23:51:55 <KevinN> naaah... don't think so...
23:51:57 <calamari> Why not describe the source in terms of 0 and 1, it is the same :)
23:52:20 <KevinN> you see... that's the basis...
23:52:22 <calamari> then you have binary, which is how it is represented
23:52:39 <KevinN> yes... in some way or another...
23:52:57 <jix> now the real genetic algorithm...
23:55:35 <calamari> KevinN: I think a lang can be devised with 3 operators that perform the essentials (iteration, infinite memory, etc), but with two I think it is impossible without enforcing some outside design on the two.. for example with iota and jot, they are decoded according to lambda calculus, so that a single 0 or 1 does not perform a single task, it does several depending on context.
23:56:36 <calamari> with bitchange or bf, each instruction performs a well defined task that does not change function depending on positioning, only on state
23:57:22 * GregorR is shocked as calamari bursts into flames!
23:58:24 <GregorR> Anybody want to chat on DirectNet 8-D
23:58:41 <GregorR> 8-D being a punctuation mark with roughly the same meaning as '?'
00:00:06 <calamari> yeah, that 8th dimension is a real mystery
00:02:27 <jix> GregorR: checking command line arguments of a osx.app is somewhat stupid
00:02:48 <jix> mac os x passes -psn something to all double clicked apps... directnet tries to parse that...
00:03:45 <jix> how does directnet work?
00:04:06 <GregorR> You connect to some other DN user ...
00:04:10 <GregorR> Then you're on ... THE MESH
00:04:18 <jix> ok i want to connect to someone
00:04:30 <jix> gpg username?
00:04:55 <GregorR> jix: If you don't have GPG, don't put in a GPG username ;)
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01:12:34 <jix> moin sekhmet, puzzlet, graue, Sgep
01:14:19 <jix> puzzlet: do you know the gp2x?
01:15:33 <graue> I've heard of it, but I'm skeptical of whether it will be as good as rumored
01:16:06 <jix> i can't wait for my gp2x to arrive
01:16:24 <graue> you'll have to inform me of whether it is actually good, since, if so, I might obtain one
01:21:08 <graue> they don't multitask, do they?
01:21:27 <jix> it runs linux so multitasking is no problem
01:21:38 <jix> but they don't multitask the built in apps
01:21:48 <jix> and there can be only one sdl screen
01:22:11 <jix> so only one app can communicate with the user
01:22:40 <graue> is SDL the only way to make games on it?
01:23:12 <jix> using linux sdl is the only way to get a screen buffer (sdl_surface is just a image buffer)
01:23:38 <graue> so, written any subskin programs lately?
01:23:45 <jix> using HH (hardcore homebrew firmware (under development not yet released not made by gph)) it's possible to talk with the hardware directly
01:23:56 <jix> graue: hmm i wrote a quine...
01:24:25 <jix> i had some different versions
01:24:31 <graue> not quine1.subskin dated september 12th?
01:25:13 <jix> i have quin2.subskin
01:25:33 <jix> dated september 12th
01:25:52 <graue> you gave me a quine2.subskin that day and told me if I added it to the file archive I should call it quine1.subskin, because the 2 was just due to your bootstrapping process, or something like that
01:25:54 <jix> and quine1.subskin is dated september 11th here
01:26:06 <jix> yes i know the 2 was bootstrapping
01:26:13 <jix> but the 2 i have here is different from the online version
01:26:29 <jix> i did some cleanup
01:27:00 <jix> http://rafb.net/paste/results/4NW7wq58.txt
01:29:07 <jix> i have a undocumentated subskin-assembler-hack and 2 programs written using it (quine and 99bob) should they be in the archive too?
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02:02:36 <jix> !bf8 +++++++++++++++++++++[->+++>-------<<]>+++++++++.>--------.+++++++..+++.>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.<<<++++++++++.
02:04:30 <graue> jix: does the subskin-assembler-hack quine print out its source code in the assembler language, or in subskin?
02:05:04 <jix> in subskin
02:05:12 <jix> i used it to generate quine1.subskin and quine2.subskin
02:05:43 <jix> it allows one to not readjust every adress if the code moves by 1 byte
02:06:05 <graue> that sounds useful
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02:29:15 <graue> so are you going to post this assembler hack somewhere somehow?
02:30:43 <jix> hmm can i dcc you?
02:34:27 <graue> you can privately message me a password for svn access to the file archive, if you wish
02:37:00 <jix> i don't know svn commands
02:37:42 <jix> i'm going to upload it tomorrow
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02:39:59 <GregorR> Fine, everybody just leave :'(
03:25:02 * Sgep goes to attempt to write a python implementation of something
03:30:58 * Sgep works on implementing Foobar and Foobaz and Barbaz, oh my!
03:31:20 <graue> heh, that's a funny language
03:31:25 <graue> at least the name is
03:35:46 <GregorR> Monty Python's Flying Whitespace!
03:36:08 <GregorR> Juuuust a subtle mockery of Python's indentation significance.
03:36:51 <Sgep> Hardest part of processing that language is related to my lack of string-handling skills...
03:37:06 <Sgep> *The Foobar one
03:40:07 <Sgep> So far, the interpreter does absolutely NO checking to see if it makes sense
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03:51:54 <Sgep> So far, my interpreter is going to allow the user to get away with using , instead of " and " and ", oh my"
03:54:07 <graue> why don't you have yacc create a parser for you?
03:54:20 <Sgep> Because I have no clue what yacc is
03:55:32 <graue> it's a UNIX program that generates parsers
03:56:50 <Sgep> Need documentation
03:57:39 <Sgep> Please tell me that Python can use the generated parser easily
04:01:46 * Sgep installs pyparsing
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04:39:06 * Sgep is almost done
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04:41:20 <Sgep> I think I finished it
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04:51:53 <Madbrain> I wonder how a script designed for writing 2d video games could be like
04:53:40 <Madbrain> These things are really light on data storage requirements
04:53:57 <Madbrain> But are heavier on behaviour, interactions, collisions
05:01:58 * Sgep wrote an implementation of http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Foobar_and_Foobaz_and_Barbaz,_oh_my!
05:03:14 <Sgep> But it wasn't implemented
05:03:27 * Sgep needed an easy language to implement
05:04:19 <Madbrain> too bad it's not turing complete
05:05:58 <Madbrain> I've yet to implement my lastest lang...
05:06:45 <Madbrain> But it's complicated stuff to implement
05:07:45 * Sgep had difficulty even implementing what he did implement
05:08:54 <Madbrain> It involves some very dynamic memory stuff, which I have to learn to do properly in C++ or switch to a more appropriate language... perhaps java
05:09:45 <Madbrain> And crazy recursion optimisation so the stack doesn't explode
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06:22:03 <GregorR> http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/GregorRichards/Cruising.jpg
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17:02:53 <kipple> sgep: is you foobar and barbaz implementation available anywhere?
17:03:08 * Sgep will post it on a pastebin service now
17:04:37 <Sgep> The horrible code is here:
17:04:42 <Sgep> http://rafb.net/paste/results/jFdGal77.html
17:04:56 <Sgep> First it asks for filename of the program, then it executes it
17:05:05 <Sgep> Raises IndexError when program is done
17:05:22 <Sgep> And uses the pyparsing module
17:05:53 <Sgep> Not really well tested
17:06:03 <Sgep> And I accidentally pasted it as formatted as C++
17:07:50 <Sgep> And it could be horribly incorrect...
17:10:45 * kipple changes foobar and foobaz... to implemented
17:12:17 <Sgep> There should really be a poorly implemented category
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20:19:06 <Sgep> Is the sample program for switching at http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Foobar_and_Foobaz_and_Barbaz,_oh_my! correct?
20:19:48 <Sgep> My interpreter (which is very buggy) doesn't like it, but the program there presumably wasn't tested either...
20:38:39 <Sgep> I fixed my interpreter to work with boygirl.omy
20:38:59 <Sgep> Except that newlines and comments need to be stripped out
20:44:50 <Sgep> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:Sgeo/ffbimp
20:45:46 <GregorR> I'm not yawning at your convo.
20:45:49 <GregorR> Just my morning tiredness.
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00:35:41 <kipple> dang, another wiki controversy :(
00:37:10 * kipple wishes graue would be a bit gentler to people...
00:37:45 <kipple> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Talk:Dumbf*ck
00:40:06 * GregorR takes nine steps away from that conversation.
00:40:38 * kipple worries that we'll get another fragmentation...
00:42:26 <Sgep> fragmentation?
02:00:31 <calamari> sorry to cause a dispute.. I was just getting tired of the abuse and spoke out in a moment of frustration
02:09:37 <calamari> well, just in case there is any doubt.. I won't be tryign to fragment the wiki or anything of the sort :)
02:18:58 <GregorR> Nah, graue offered to write a curses UI for DirectNet :P
02:28:49 <GregorR> http://directnet.sourceforge.net/
02:38:04 <calamari> bah.. I wanted to say how cool it was that it compiled without any warnings, but it snuck a couple in :(
02:38:39 <GregorR> Are they not in src/enc-cyfer/cyfer or src/enc-cyfer/gmp ?
02:38:43 <calamari> get_d_2exp.c: In function `__gmpz_get_d_2exp':
02:38:43 <calamari> get_d_2exp.c:60: warning: matching constraint does not allow a register
02:38:43 <calamari> get_d_2exp.c:60: warning: matching constraint does not allow a register
02:38:50 <GregorR> Cool, that's not my code ;)
02:39:45 <GregorR> Incidentally, I'm releasing 1.0.0rc2 as we speak :P
02:40:08 <calamari> lol, you did that to me the last time I compiled it
02:40:25 <GregorR> It's just a few bugfixes of course.
02:40:40 <GregorR> Almost exclusively problems on OpenBSD and Mac OS X.
02:41:01 * calamari checks the file to see what the warning means
02:42:52 <calamari> asm ("" : "=m" (res) : "0" (res));
02:57:06 <calamari> does directnet use the same port for outgoing and incoming connections?
02:57:28 <calamari> I can't seem to connect and I'm wondering if I need to open a port on my router
03:03:52 <GregorR> If you wanted to connect to yourself, then yes, you would.
03:04:00 <GregorR> But you don't /need/ to to be on the DN network.
03:13:35 * calamari left out a "to" when reading that and got slightly confused.. :)
03:15:44 * calamari wonders if having a list of active nicks and ip's goes against the spirit of directnet
03:16:16 <GregorR> Certainly not if they're on different IPs.
03:16:32 * GregorR misinterpreted that sentence.
03:16:44 <GregorR> The "route list" is essentially that.
03:17:33 <calamari> I guess what I mean is that on irc I can join a channel and find people, so I don't have to search.. but I wouldn't know how to discover people on dn
03:18:12 <GregorR> Yeah, that's sort of an issue :P
03:18:34 <GregorR> It's not against the "spirit" of DN, but it's against the technology of serverless networks ;)
03:20:08 * calamari tries to think of how a chat room would work on p2p
03:20:19 <GregorR> There are chatrooms on DN.
03:20:25 <GregorR> But you have to have a route to one person in the chat room.
03:21:01 <GregorR> (Meaning, amongst other things, that there can be two chatrooms with the same name)
03:23:08 <GregorR> Still trying to work out the technoissues.
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07:24:39 <GregorR> Nothing makes you feel more stupid than digging through code for twenty minutes trying to find a bug, only to discover that you forgot to NULL-terminate a string.
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17:38:36 <jix> GOOGLE IS DOWN (well i found one google server that responses but all google groups and gmail servers are down)
17:44:12 <lindi-> jix: are you sure it's just google?
17:44:34 <jix> i'm reading http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1813828,00.asp atm
17:44:37 <jix> but all other websites work
17:44:55 <lindi-> jix: i'm seeing http://iki.fi/lindi/google_last_10800.png
17:45:18 <lindi-> jix: i have problems with e.g. en.wikipedia.org too
17:45:40 <jix> wikipedia is faster than normal here
17:45:50 <jix> but i can't read google groups
17:46:02 <jix> and some people can't read mails using gmail...
17:46:27 <lirthy> I'm reading mails in gmail.com. i have no problem. lucky :p
17:46:58 <jix> dns problems are often provider local .. but there seems to be many dns problems with many providers only affecting google
17:47:00 <lindi-> --- www.eweek.com ping statistics ---
17:47:00 <lindi-> 21 packets transmitted, 10 received, 52% loss, time 22174ms
17:47:01 <lindi-> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 143.979/165.792/183.558/11.645 ms
17:47:31 <jix> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1813828,00.asp works google doesn't work.. everything except google works
17:48:44 <lindi-> jix: i can read that if i ssh to work first ;)
17:48:59 <jix> google is back here
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22:15:56 <calamari> afk to bake a birthday cake :D
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23:17:25 <Sgep> Did you see that I implemented your Foobar and Foobaz and Barbaz, oh my! language?
23:18:02 <ihope> I haven't had the chance to test it yet, though.
23:18:38 <Sgep> It currently crashes after hitting a blank line or a comment :-(
23:22:15 <ihope> Well, the 99 bottles of beer program probably doesn't need any of those, since it'll pretty much contain the whole song, one line per character.
23:22:51 <Sgep> There's a 99 bottles of beer program?
23:22:58 <ihope> At least I think that's what it'll do. Theoretically, it could be packed into less than 12000 lines, but I'm not sure how to do that.
23:23:52 <ihope> And I'm working on the beer program. Since this computer somehow got restarted, I'll start over.
23:24:45 <ihope> All I need is a simple parser, to turn each raw character into "[ASCII code] and [ASCII code] and [ASCII code], oh my.\n".
23:31:00 <Sgep> Shouldn't just the two on the left be the same
23:31:06 <Sgep> And the third 0?
23:32:21 <ihope> All those [ASCII code]s are the same.
23:33:03 <ihope> An exclamation point would translate to "33 and 33 and 33, oh my.", for example.
23:33:30 <Sgep> Why the third 33?
23:33:56 <ihope> No reason, really. It could be 32 or 1 or 0.
23:34:17 * Sgep decides to make something that outputs:
23:34:24 <Sgep> [ASCII code] and 255 and 0, oh my.\n
23:35:06 <fizzie> fis@colin:~$ echo foo | perl -ne 'print ord($_), " and 255 and 0, oh my.\n" foreach split //;'
23:35:10 <fizzie> 102 and 255 and 0, oh my.
23:35:12 <fizzie> 111 and 255 and 0, oh my.
23:35:15 <fizzie> 111 and 255 and 0, oh my.
23:35:17 <fizzie> 10 and 255 and 0, oh my.
23:36:46 <Sgep> http://rafb.net/paste/results/nvPFP965.html
23:37:09 <Sgep> Bleh. Accidentally pasted as C++
23:37:26 <fizzie> Mine has less characters. :p
23:39:40 <ihope> Hmm... foobar x = [ show (ord a) : " and 255 and 0, oh my.\n" | a <- x ]
23:44:25 <fizzie> ~.25*".ym ho ,0 dna 552 dna">:#,_
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23:48:53 <ihope> foobar x = concat [ reverse ("\n.ym ho ,0 dna 552 dna " ++ [show (ord a)]) | a <- x ]
23:49:42 <Sgep> http://rafb.net/paste/results/akEyDY56.html
23:49:45 <fizzie> There's not much point reversing the string if you're not writing befunge. Besides, wouldn't that reverse the input'd character?
23:50:06 <Sgep> My script leaves two blank lines at the end
23:50:32 <Sgep> Which would need to be stripped out before it works with my implementation :-/
23:51:56 <fizzie> Sgep; Well, my befunge version doesn't understand EOF so if you pipe input to it, you'll end up with an infinite amount of "-1 and 255 and 0, oh my."s. Compared to that, two blank lines shouldn't seem all that bad, right?
23:52:02 <ihope> foobar x = concat [ reverse ("\n.ym ho ,0 dna 553 dna " ++ [reverse (show (ord a))]) | a <- x ]
23:53:51 <ihope> compose x y z = y (x z)
23:53:56 <ihope> compose foobar foobar
23:54:07 <fizzie> ~:1+!#@_.25*".ym ho ,0 dna 552 dna">:#,_
23:54:42 <fizzie> Befunge oneliners are silly, they should really be small rectangular blocks of code.
23:58:30 <ihope> mesh x y = concat [ [a,b] | (a,b) <- zip x y ]
23:59:12 <ihope> mesh (x:xs) y = x : (concat [ [a,b] | (a,b) <- zip y x ])
00:01:53 <fizzie> Oh, just realized that a more perly solution would've been:
00:01:56 <fizzie> perl -ne 'print "$_ and 255 and 0, oh my.\n" foreach unpack "C*", $_'
00:02:37 <fizzie> Witness the firepower of this fully-armed and operational perl station.
00:03:04 * ihope left Hugs downstairs
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00:12:56 <ihope> Which is better: taking x and returning its head or taking (x:xs) and returning x?
00:14:40 <fizzie> 42 READ(UNIT=*,FMT=*,END=43) CIN
00:14:40 <fizzie> IF(ICHAR(CIN(I+1:I+1)).NE.32) THEN
00:14:43 <fizzie> WRITE(UNIT=*,FMT=*) ICHAR(CIN(I+1:I+1)), ' AND 255 AND 0 OH
00:15:01 <fizzie> (Couldn't help myself.)
00:15:12 <ihope> Wow. What was that written in?
00:15:37 <fizzie> I should really have used some more esoteric fortranisms, like a computed goto or something.
00:20:28 <ihope> Well, I'm writing one in Haskell...
00:27:45 <ihope> mesh x y = concat [ [a,b] | (a,b) <- zip x y ]
00:27:46 <ihope> mesh (x:xs) y = x : (concat [ [a,b] | (a,b) <- zip y x ])
00:27:50 <ihope> firstfew 1 (x:xs) = x
00:27:52 <ihope> firstfew x (y:ys) = y : (firstfew x-1 ys)
00:27:57 <ihope> lastfew 1 x = last x
00:27:59 <ihope> lastfew x (y:ys) | length ys == x = ys
00:28:02 <ihope> | length ys > x = lastfew x ys
00:28:03 <ihope> scramble [x] = [x]
00:28:05 <ihope> scramble [x,y] = [x,y]
00:28:06 <ihope> scramble x | even (length x) = mesh (scramble firstfew (length x / 2) x) (scramble lastfew (length x / 2) x)
00:28:08 <ihope> foobar x = concat [ show (ord a) : scramble " 5dmdaha2\n0 o y n n5," | a <- x ]
00:28:27 <ihope> ...With that : replaced with a ++.
00:28:31 <fizzie> Are you _sure_ that's the simplest possible solution? :p
00:28:58 <fizzie> foo([X|_], Y) :- int_to_atom(X, X2), atom_concat(X2, ' and 255 and 0, oh my.', Y).
00:29:02 <fizzie> foo([_|Rest], Y) :- foo(Rest, Y).
00:29:03 <fizzie> Y = '102 and 255 and 0, oh my.' ;
00:29:03 <fizzie> Y = '111 and 255 and 0, oh my.' ;
00:29:03 <fizzie> Y = '111 and 255 and 0, oh my.' ;
00:29:06 <fizzie> Y = '46 and 255 and 0, oh my.' ;
00:29:22 <ihope> Can you write a shorter one that uses the string " 5dmdaha2\n0 o y n n5," to make the thinger?
00:30:01 <Sgep> What are we trying to do?
00:30:22 <ihope> Write something that turns a string into a Foobar program that outputs it.
00:30:55 <Sgep> Are we trying to do that in as many languages as possible?
00:31:15 <fizzie> And also in as senseless ways as possible, it seems.
00:31:43 <Sgep> Are these programs able to process multi-line strings?
00:32:11 <ihope> A string is a string is a string, to these ones.
00:32:25 <ihope> Of course, they have to be in ASCII.
00:32:34 <fizzie> And my fortran implementation does not support space characters. :p
00:32:58 <ihope> That's FORTRAN for you.
00:33:19 <fizzie> (Fortran's "READ" sets the un-assigned characters to spaces, and does not return the amount of characters assigned to.)
00:34:01 <ihope> Could someone make a program that does this by bruteforcing an md5 hash?
00:36:30 <fizzie> There's that md5 collision source, but iirc it can only mangle two files to collide, not specify what the resultant hash value is.
00:40:53 * Sgep needs to leave in 5min
00:41:46 <fizzie> The one that was slashdotted few days ago.
00:41:58 <fizzie> And probably all based on that same paper.
00:42:45 <ihope> http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/15/2037232&from=rss?
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01:03:58 <fizzie> Just this one, then I'll stop writing these:
01:04:01 <fizzie> fis@colin:~/prog/tmp/ps$ gs tmp.ps
01:04:01 <fizzie> ESP Ghostscript 815.00 (2005-08-11)
01:04:01 <fizzie> Copyright (C) 2004 artofcode LLC, Benicia, CA. All rights reserved.
01:04:01 <fizzie> This software comes with NO WARRANTY: see the file PUBLIC for details.
01:04:06 <fizzie> 102 and 255 and 0, oh my.
01:04:08 <fizzie> 111 and 255 and 0, oh my.
01:04:11 <fizzie> 111 and 255 and 0, oh my.
01:04:13 <fizzie> 46 and 255 and 0, oh my.
01:04:16 <fizzie> 10 and 255 and 0, oh my.
01:04:25 <fizzie> { (%stdin) (r) file read { 10 string cvs print ( and 255 and 0, oh my.\n) print } { exit } ifelse } loop
01:19:07 <ihope> Is there any Haskell builtin to test whether a list contains a specified value?
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01:53:24 <ihope> Hmm... aleph-one is not a prime number, as it is higher than the highest prime number, but is aleph-null a prime number?
01:56:24 <ihope> I guess not, as the highest prime number, squared, is a composite number, which means there are numbers higher than the highest prime number. This means that aleph-null is also higher than the highest prime number, right?
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01:58:09 <puzzlet> there are infinte prime numbers, and you can find a prime higher than any given number also
01:59:12 * puzzlet just broke in, so is checking the context of the discussion
01:59:53 * kipple realize he has nothing to contribute to this discussion, and therefore keeps his mouth shut
02:00:07 * Sgep needs to be oriented to this discussion
02:01:20 <puzzlet> isn't aleph-one a degree of infinte set, other than just a number?
02:01:37 <puzzlet> i don't understand what you're wondering
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02:07:52 <GregorR-L> echo Hmm, apparently there are no files in this directory
02:08:28 <lament> ihope: hint: aleph-zero is not an integer number
02:08:51 <lament> ihope: is 3.89723 a prime number? Who knows?
02:09:29 <puzzlet> it's not dividable at first look
02:10:40 <lament> puzzlet: oh, there's lots of things you could divide it by.
02:14:23 <puzzlet> i just got curious. is there a concept something like "prime complex number"?
02:19:13 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_ideal
02:20:10 <lament> "A commutative ring is a field if and only if {0} is its only prime ideal"
02:20:28 <lament> so concept of prime numbers is inapplicable to fields
02:20:45 <lament> including reals, complex numbers, rationals...
02:23:16 <lament> ihope: there's no highest prime number, so aleph-zero cannot be higher than it.
02:23:38 <lament> ihope: but aleph-zero is greater than ALL prime numbers :)
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03:28:45 <calamari> bash: which: command not found
03:29:25 <calamari> afaik which is a debian program
03:29:40 <GregorR> calamari: Nah, which is generic (...?)
03:29:58 <lament> /usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/opt/bin
03:30:21 <GregorR> There's no /usr !!!!!!!!!!! >_O
03:30:48 <GregorR> So where's ls coming from?
03:31:01 <GregorR> There's no /usr, there's no /opt, so where's ls coming from?
03:31:01 <lament> i'm guessing it's a builtin.
03:31:09 <GregorR> OK, then where's bash coming from?
03:31:21 <GregorR> I guess it could have been running when I rm -rf /*'d :P
03:31:31 <lament> statically link bash and try that
03:31:40 <lament> feel free to chroot first or whatever
03:31:50 <GregorR> No, I'd prefer to wipe out my HDD.
03:32:12 <lament> of course ls isn't actually a bulitin.
03:32:24 <lament> but you could use echo *
03:32:24 <calamari> good idea.. clean up the drive before the holidays
03:32:40 <GregorR> graue logged on for long enough to tell me he wasn't making the UI for DirectNet, then logged off XD
03:33:09 <lament> since you don't need any more functionality :)
03:33:16 <calamari> lament you could work for Lucas
03:33:38 <calamari> coming up with explanations after the fact
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03:57:05 <cpressey> lament: i'll sit up front tomorrow. that should make it obvious who i am
03:58:30 * calamari would just stay after class or something.. ;)
03:59:11 <calamari> bring a Befunge program for him to autograph
03:59:36 <lament> i might have one in my notebook
04:01:02 <calamari> and take a pic for the map page ;)
04:02:45 <lament> i could take a pic of Spotty Dotty.
04:05:06 <lament> our prof's plush toy dog.
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05:48:50 <GregorR> Many pings unto you my friends.
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07:45:29 <fizzie> In tcsh you could "ls-F", that's a builtin.
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07:57:41 <jix> well atm i'm not going i'm sitting right in front of my computer
07:58:09 <GregorR> Presumably you're referring to only your inertial frame of reference.
07:58:17 <GregorR> As in a static frame of reference, you are indeed moving.
07:59:21 <GregorR> On an unrelated note, I am officially the over-releaser.
07:59:27 <GregorR> Three releases in three days XD
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08:02:53 <jix> stupid french homework
08:06:14 <GregorR> I could help you ... if I knew any French at all :-P
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13:47:58 <{^Raven^}> anyone know of references/guides aimed at a writer of an esolang?
13:58:26 <{^Raven^}> having a concrete idea and doing something with it is proving awkward
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16:01:48 <ihope> So, is SIMPLE actually a language, or just a description of one?
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16:56:16 <nooga> i've go an excellent idea :>
17:03:53 <jix> tell us about it
17:05:16 <nooga> i will write some interpreters of esolangs for J2ME and then i will be able to play everywhere !!:D
17:05:22 <nooga> isn't it great? ;p
17:05:38 <nooga> and then and then... maybe for an iPod!
17:05:39 <lindi-> nooga: interesting idea
17:06:08 <jix> i'm going to write some for the gp2x (as soon as i get my gp2x)
17:06:23 <lindi-> nooga: what development environment are you planning to use? i've used microemulator.sf.net
17:07:20 <nooga> oh, last time i've tried to write something for mobile i used siemens sdk + jBuilder ;/
17:07:49 <lindi-> nooga: sounds proprietary
17:08:26 <nooga> so then i just got rid of those ;p
17:09:52 <nooga> the thing is... i just hate java!
17:10:32 <nooga> but now i'm motivated...
17:10:46 <lindi-> nooga: don't worry, you can develop j2me without proprietary stuff now
17:12:36 <nooga> brb -> switching to linux
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17:16:13 <fizzie> Writing code with a non-qwerty keyboard isn't too fun, though.
17:16:21 -!- nooga has joined.
17:16:47 <fizzie> 19:15:50 < fizzie> Writing code with a non-qwerty keyboard isn't too fun, though.
17:17:29 <fizzie> My TI-86 has a befunge interpreter, but it's not really very usable, and that thing at least has different keys for all letters.
17:17:39 <nooga> but it makes it even more 'hardcore'
17:18:28 <fizzie> I've been planning a j2me scheme interpreter once or twice.
17:20:44 <kipple> I ported my java brainfuck interpreter to j2me. worked fine in the emulator, but not on my phone :(
17:21:24 <fizzie> J2ME implementations in phones are horribly horrible. (At least in Nokia's phones, no experience with other manufacturers.)
17:22:52 <fizzie> I had a Siemens M50 thing, and didn't run into any problems with its j2me implementation. (Wrote an IRC client and a bus-schedule-thing for it.)
17:23:20 <nooga> i have siemens S55 ;p
17:23:39 <fizzie> Whereas my current N-Gage multimedia mobile gaming deck device (the cheapest S60 device when I bought it) has a rather horrible jvm.
17:23:40 <nooga> shish... i think i must download netBeans
17:24:53 <fizzie> And the 6600 we had at work was even worse. It claims to support midp2 and mmapi, but it's implemented so badly it's ~useless.
17:25:16 <nooga> and that's why i hate java
17:25:58 <fizzie> Well, Nokia's S60 Symbian SDK is about the same size.
17:26:15 <fizzie> (And HP's printer driver is >500 MB, so...)
17:27:45 <kipple> I don't have a USB-cable for my phone (or a wireless connection), so I have to pay for each time i download a program into it. Which is why I gave up debugging it
17:28:00 <lindi-> nooga: why do you must download netbeans? ;)
17:28:14 <fizzie> "Description: If the FullScreenMode of Canvas is changed to true, the Commands in the Options menu don't have any effect. If any soft key is pressed, the Options menu is shown, but choosing a Command does nothing. Solution: No solutions exist for software version 3.42.1 or 4.09.1."
17:28:49 <fizzie> "Description: Commands can be added to full screen but they do not work. Solution: No solutions exist for software version 3.42.1, but this issue has been corrected in software version 4.09.1."
17:28:59 <nooga> lindi-: i don't imagine coding in *JAVA* without IDE
17:29:05 <fizzie> Two adjacent entries from the nokia 6600 j2me known issues document.
17:29:12 <lindi-> nooga: why not use eclipse?
17:29:23 <nooga> because it's even bigger and hard to configure
17:29:27 <lindi-> both debian and fedora include it
17:29:52 * kipple is still using a straight text editor to code java.
17:29:57 <lindi-> even I managed to import stuff to it and i rarely use these so called IDEs
17:30:27 <lindi-> nooga: well, take another look and ask if you hit problems
17:31:55 <jix> STUPID FRENCH HOMEWORK!
17:35:42 <nooga> i wonder is there eclipse for suse 10
17:37:17 <fizzie> http://www.novell.com/products/linuxpackages/professional/eclipse-gtk2.html says there is.
18:39:55 <lindi-> fizzie: but that probably runs on some proprietary jvm
18:49:02 <nooga> now i must go and do my home...fu**ing...work
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19:12:21 <Keymaker> kipple: by the way, remember codename: rgb?
19:12:42 <Keymaker> perhaps we should continue some time..?
19:15:02 * kipple looks up codename:rgb on the wiki
19:20:42 <kipple> hmm. if each instruction has a pre-determined number of arguments then we don't need to use B for argcount
19:21:28 <kipple> though it is nice to be able to use an arbitrary number of args for certain instructions
19:21:44 <Keymaker> so, it may be good choice, afterall
19:22:46 <kipple> I'm not sure. There are probably other uses for the B too
19:27:40 <Keymaker> i'd like to create something oldskool esolang..
19:28:39 <kipple> that would be against all that basic stands for :)
19:30:09 <kipple> there should be more languages with COME FROM
19:30:29 <kipple> it's an instruction. the opposite of GOTO
19:30:46 <kipple> I think it appeared in INTERCAL first
19:31:22 <kipple> if you have a statement that says COME FROM 23, then when the program reaches line 23 it jumps to the come from
19:32:18 <kipple> what happens when you have several come froms with the same line# could be a lot of fun
19:33:04 <kipple> guess forking the program is the most natural solution
19:34:57 <kipple> hmm. occult is the opposite of visual, right? Occult Basic could be an interesting language :)
19:37:10 <Keymaker> that kind of language probably shouldn't output anything nor let user know anything of its state
19:38:39 <kipple> according to the wikipedia " A very minimal BASIC syntax only needs the LET, PRINT, IF and GOTO commands."
19:39:10 <kipple> variable assignment I suppose
19:39:40 <Keymaker> hah, now that's called minimal basic instead of esoteric :D
19:48:10 <Keymaker> it'll have some assembler features
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19:49:15 <kipple> arrays and variables are really unnecessary. you could instead store data in the program space.
19:49:25 <kipple> then self-modification also becomes possible :)
19:50:34 <Keymaker> that's true, although it's difficult in language where instructions are long (in other words, not one character)
19:50:54 <Keymaker> i think i'll have variables, but allow selfmodifying whole lines
19:50:59 <kipple> true. but difficult is a good thing, right? ;)
19:52:15 <Keymaker> the problem will be the implementation.. well, must ask jix once the specs is done :)
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20:30:59 <kipple> shouldn't be that hard to implement a basic-like language
20:31:14 <Keymaker> well, with my real-language-programming-skills, yes
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20:56:32 <Keymaker> just posted my second entry at your forum
20:56:57 * GregorR-L has been too busy with /real/ code to write BF ;)
20:57:14 * calamari just got done taking an exam.. now I can work on my entry without feeling guilty
20:59:08 <calamari> I assume your 2nd entry was shorter than the first? :)
21:02:49 <calamari> I updated your original entry a tad
21:03:28 <GregorR-L> No, just the technology is all dead.
21:04:20 <calamari> scream out "Thank you for choosing Microsoft products"
21:04:36 <calamari> Sgep: http://esoforum.kidsquid.com/
21:04:58 <GregorR-L> calamari: How did you know it was MS? ;)
21:06:19 <ihope> Hmm... self-modifying Foobar?
21:06:19 <calamari> my weird Linux crashes aside (probably my fault or hardware related), most Linux machines I've used are rock solid
21:06:51 <calamari> of course, I can ssh into a machine and fork-bomb..
21:07:30 <ihope> Wikipedia is getting slower, it seems...
21:09:50 <Keymaker> calamari: ok. by the way, i just checked, and the first was 574 bytes
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21:10:23 <lindi-> ihope: what are they using to run the search engine nowadays?
21:12:16 <Keymaker> i'll go.. ZZzzZzz.. good night
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22:00:40 <ihope> I just realized there's an esoteric programming language already in common use, and often called "legalese".
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01:29:11 <{^Raven^}> idea for esolang != clue to implementation
01:32:37 <{^Raven^}> have an idea for a wierd esolang implementation, got the basic structure worked but he rest is hiding from me
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01:34:53 <{^Raven^}> i'm stuck working out a language to use inside the esoteric structure
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08:38:08 <CXI> has anyone here heard of the J programming language?
08:38:51 <CXI> for some reason wikipedia doesn't have it under the esolang category
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13:04:28 <kipple> CXI: I wouldn't count J as an esolang
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13:44:01 <CXI> I'd say it's debatable :P
13:46:04 <jix> i'm working on a whitespace mandelbrot
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14:03:11 * nooga has got netbeans and everything...
14:27:24 <nooga> but i can't install !@$#@^% j2me -.-'
15:13:07 <jix> H4sIALCGhEMAA3VRWw6AMAj7bk/R+59SVso2TZxRSdMHMEkQ6+NTdR3CP8C4kNd4QVTDLlhP6NSmuAbR5txkjANiE8Tmcvrpg2kH1rl0HiavUd6ircHWMM0x7EjeyYrJJCpY+lpkMtMkhBqWB/XMzNZC9G5mqM6ZXb7ndELrFo/K3L/3cntbhY/7fWuxX0fdOU/z7L4X4QHBZEA/DAIAAA==
15:13:18 <jix> this is my gziped base64ed whitespace mandelbrot
15:15:00 <nooga> mandelbrot in whitespace?
15:15:47 <nooga> im playing with netBeans -.-'
15:37:46 <nooga> designing menus and everything is fun ... but time to code for real -.-'
15:37:52 <nooga> shish... i hate java
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19:31:19 <jix> moin Arrogant
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19:50:31 <jix> moin Keymaker
19:50:47 <jix> i wrote a whitespace mandelbrot
19:51:01 <jix> hmm? well it works like mandelbrot works...
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19:55:02 <jix> next lang to implement mandelbrot!
19:57:07 <jix> because there is a mandelbrot for befunge somewhere
19:57:53 <jix> hmm yeah why not...
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19:59:40 <jix> but i'd prefer to implement mandelbrot in a language not written by me
19:59:52 <jix> no wait! i'm going to implement a compression routine in axo!
20:00:10 <jix> my fungoid
20:00:19 <jix> (i wrote it before i knew befunge)
20:00:49 <jix> i knew there are 2dimensional languages but i never saw one then
20:01:32 <jix> here is the spec: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Axo
20:01:52 <Keymaker> yeah, i've seen it.. i just couldn't remember the name first
20:05:20 <jix> idea! write an optimizing axo compiler
20:05:29 <jix> but first compression
20:10:06 <jix> no nothing more today.. i'm too tired
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20:29:13 <kipple> hey Keymaker. Any progress with the bizarre basic?
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20:29:53 <ihope> Memory abstraction layer...
20:30:25 <ihope> The Memory Abstraction Layer for Esoteric Kernels.
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20:38:48 <Keymaker> i think bizarre basic will have memory inside the program file
20:39:37 <Keymaker> should the very first line be line 0 or line 1?
20:39:52 <kipple> I think the original basic used 1
20:40:16 <kipple> or you could use something else like -17.345
20:40:25 <kipple> but then again, maybe not
20:40:44 <Keymaker> i'll stick with the first one (ha ha ha)
20:41:26 <kipple> you could let the user define them himself
20:41:40 <ihope> I don't suppose you're going to use imaginary numbers in there at all?
20:41:50 <kipple> I remember from gwbasic (my first programming language), that you had to start each line with a number
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20:42:17 <kipple> I think that is a nice way to do it
20:42:35 <Keymaker> yeah, it's oldschool at least :)
20:43:32 <kipple> it was normal to use 10, 20, 30 etc. as line numbers so you could insert lines between them without renumbering
20:43:47 <ihope> How about not referencing lines by numbers, but by... something else?
20:43:56 <calamari> I think I've figured out how I want Linguine to work.. still a lot like Spaghetti
20:43:57 <kipple> if you use floating point line numbers that would be even more flexible!
20:44:46 <ihope> You could use functions as line identifiers...
20:45:03 <calamari> kipple: "spaghetti 2" basically
20:45:08 <kipple> you could use anything really
20:45:46 <calamari> kipple: it should be turing complete this time and not have the same pointer problem.. last time it was rather annoying to use without much eso-benefit
20:46:06 <kipple> don't remember the spaghetti language. sorry ;)
20:46:23 <calamari> that's okay.. it was never big
20:46:40 <calamari> it forced every instruction to be followed by a goto
20:46:51 <calamari> and every instruction had a line number
20:47:08 <calamari> so you could randomly rearrange the program lines and it still worked
20:47:30 <ihope> What if lines had to be arranged in a specific order, but characters within each lines could be randomly arranged?
20:48:07 <calamari> ihope: I think that would make it difficult to tell 123 from 321 :)
20:48:10 <Keymaker> hey, this was supposed to be basic..
20:49:10 <calamari> unless I came up with a different number system
20:49:43 <calamari> a=1, b=2, c=4, etc.. but then it would have a max number size
20:51:51 <ihope> Continue with ^[aa, ^[ab, ^[ac, etc
20:53:16 <Keymaker> planning a basic language is hard because there's so much stuff to choose from..
20:53:59 <calamari> oic.. so like basic with weird stuff added in?
20:54:12 <GregorR> I don't see how BASIC needs anything added to be bizarre ;)
20:54:47 <GregorR> It's pre-structured-programming.
20:54:51 <GregorR> It's spaghetti programming :P
20:54:53 <ihope> Just change the name to COMPLICATED and you've got an esoteric programming language :-)
20:54:55 <GregorR> (Not really, but basically)
20:55:11 <calamari> GregorR: nah.. quickbasic removes all the line numbers.. it's a good lang
20:55:20 <GregorR> I wasn't referring to line numbers.
20:55:21 <Keymaker> basics can be more low-level, in a way
20:55:33 <GregorR> I was referring to the fact that it doesn't have anything for decent data structures, etc.
20:55:46 <ihope> Is BASIC Turing-complete?
20:55:49 <calamari> GregorR: it has type (similar to struct)
20:58:44 <calamari> quick poll: perl, python, ruby, or java?
21:00:29 <calamari> is haskell free software? not seeing a debian package for it
21:00:47 <GregorR> Scripting, scripting, scripting or compiled?
21:00:49 <ihope> Doesn't Hugs have one?
21:01:05 <calamari> GregorR: ahh.. but they all run on vm's, don't they?
21:01:30 <GregorR> In the most technical sense, yes.
21:01:57 <calamari> but I don't know of such a thing
21:02:50 <calamari> the point is that none of those langs is compiled to linux, windows, etc native code
21:03:50 <calamari> befunge can be compiled as an interp + code.. but that's hardly compiled :)
21:03:54 <GregorR> It links to libperl, but I don't think it works by having an embedded interpreter.
21:04:07 <GregorR> I think libperl just provides convenience functions (so to speek)
21:04:42 <calamari> I thought gcj was doing a wrapper trick tho..
21:04:51 <lindi-> calamari: wrapper trick?
21:04:54 <GregorR> It links to a libjava, but, well, so does C :P
21:05:25 <lindi-> calamari: libjava is written in java and compiled to native
21:05:48 * calamari chooses python, since that was the only valid vote :)
21:07:00 <lindi-> calamari: apt-cache search haskell finds 69 packages
21:07:21 <GregorR> Well, not perl, and not Java, so I'd go with python.
21:07:44 <calamari> lindi-: weird.. must be Ubuntu then.. I have all sorts of haskell docs and things, but no haskell itself
21:08:34 <ihope> Haskell -> Lazy K?
21:08:35 <lindi-> ghc-cvs - GHC - the Glasgow Haskell Compilation system ?
21:08:36 <fizzie> Hugs is the interpreter I've used.
21:11:27 <fizzie> Debian is not being friendly to me again. Eclipse debs are in unstable only, and depend on libgcj6 >= 4.0.2-3, and 4.0.2-2 is the version in testing. Maybe I should switch completely to unstable and not try to have this weird hybrid.
21:13:07 <lindi-> fizzie: i run unstable under chroot, safe and easy
21:13:13 <calamari> I didn't use an eclipse package.. just d/led and installed
21:13:37 <fizzie> I've been using a manually downloaded eclipse so far, but since there is a debian package..
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00:32:13 <ihope> Some combinators: ``^ab -> `ba; ```*abc -> `b`ac; ````+abcd -> ``bc``acd
00:40:59 <MadBrain2> heh, I should learn that kind of crazy functional programming one of those days
00:41:41 <ihope> Those all perform their respective operations on Church numerals.
00:42:13 <ihope> As well, they are the reverse application function, the composition function, and the substituted composition function.
01:01:14 <fizzie> Meh. Tried to make jogl work with gcj (it should be possible now, since there's libjawt included), but can't get past http://gehennom.org/~fis/jogl.txt
01:04:43 <fizzie> I'm blaming lindi. Normally I'd have been content enough with Sun's evil proprietary JDK.
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01:19:06 <fizzie> _Whoa._ Jogl with SWT apparently even seems to work with gcj, provided I give it enough magic.
01:19:44 <fizzie> gcj --classpath ../jogl.jar:./swt.jar -findirect-dispatch -o jtest --main=jtest jtest.java ; export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.4.2-gcj-4.0-1.4.2.0/jre/lib/i386:.:../jogl-natives ; export CLASSPATH=../jogl.jar:./swt.jar ; ./jtest works.
01:23:10 <fizzie> OpenGL bindings for Java.
01:23:56 <kipple> I guess it's not esoteric related...
01:24:46 <fizzie> Not really, no. Our computer graphics course assignments were made with jogl, and I got curious whether it would work with gcj. (And incidentally I have an opengl application to write, and was going to use C++ for it, but compiled Java might suffice. If only it wouldn't be this horrible to write.)
01:25:42 <fizzie> Lindi uses gcj, afaik. :p
01:26:09 <kipple> Sun's java is much faster than gcj in my experience
01:27:26 <fizzie> But it's an evil soulless corporation. Completely unlike the warm-and-fuzzy-feelings GNU.
01:28:17 <fizzie> And gcj should be relatively fast, when all the classes are compiled to native code. I understand much of it's slowness is because it needs, for one reason or another, bytecode-interpret things.
01:28:45 <fizzie> Oh well, maybe I'll stick with C++, or plain C.
01:36:09 <ihope> Well, I decided to make a design for SLOBOL. Programs will be in the form of SHA-1 hashes.
01:36:42 <kipple> SLOBOL? is that one of the lesser known ones?
01:40:03 <ihope> Make that SHA-512 hashes.
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02:01:46 <calamari> is that the one that it's supposed to take a long time to compile programs ?
02:02:26 * calamari wonders if SHA-512 existed in 1982
02:05:25 <kipple> my guess: no sha512 in 1982...
02:06:30 * calamari suggests that SLOBOL not include SHA-512 then :)
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03:53:40 <cpressey> ftr, it appears that there is no universal decider.
03:54:12 <cpressey> if by "decider" you mean "a machine which computes only primitive recursive functions"
03:54:20 <cpressey> http://www.math.psu.edu/~clemens/Math459/computability.pdf
03:54:31 <cpressey> gives a proof that there is no universal primitive recursive function
03:55:16 <cpressey> on the other hand... you can take any universal turing machine, and IF you only feed it turing machines that are guaranteed to halt on its input... then (trivially) the UTM will always halt :)
04:01:44 <calamari> yeah, I incorrectly used the term "universal decider" when I really meant "machine that always halts"
04:01:44 <calamari> so basically what I was after was a language capable of describing every language that always halts
04:02:14 <cpressey> i don't think that can be done
04:02:53 <cpressey> that language must also be capable of describing languages that don't halt
04:04:10 <calamari> so to make the lang powerful enough for deciders, it will also need to understand tm's ?
04:04:27 <cpressey> what do you want your machine (/language) to do, if it is given a machine (/language) that doesn't halt, on its input?
04:04:55 <cpressey> well, how do you plan to stop it?
04:05:08 <calamari> the syntax of the language would prevent writing programs that wouldn't halt
04:05:25 <cpressey> but there are some programs that won't halt that are undescribable in that language
04:06:47 <calamari> I don't wish to run programs that won't halt, I only wish to allow programs that do
04:07:08 <calamari> so it would not be as powerful as a tm
04:07:48 <calamari> I thought we decided that PL-{GOTO} was the lnguage I was looking for
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04:08:30 <calamari> and that it boiled down to a language consisting of if-else statements
04:08:37 <cpressey> ok, how to explain this... PL-{GOTO} describes primitive recursive functions; all primitive recursive functions are guaranteed to halt; but not all functions that are guaranteed to halt are primitive recursive
04:09:42 <cpressey> there are some general-recursive functions which could be proven to halt, but which can't be written in PL-{GOTO}
04:10:19 <cpressey> basically... you can't write a PL-{GOTO} interpreter in PL-{GOTO}. even though the PL-{GOTO} interpreter will always halt.
04:10:44 <calamari> I would write the PL-{GOTO} interpreter in a TM language
04:11:34 <calamari> it doesn't really matter to me what the interpreter is written in
04:11:47 <cpressey> sure. it's not as bad as it sounds; there are lots of interesting prim-rec functions; factorial, for example
04:13:10 <calamari> let me make sure I understand what you're saying.. are you saying that the language PL-{GOTO} isn't capable of describing all possible deciders?
04:13:57 <cpressey> no, it is capable of that. what it's not capable of is describing a decider which simulates some other decider (like a UTM simulates some other TM.)
04:14:06 * Sgeper sees why... PL-{GOTO}, if it wants to be able to always halt, cannot be turing-complete
04:14:28 <calamari> PL-{GOTO} is exactly what I was looking for then :)
04:15:09 <calamari> and if I understand correctly, PL-{GOTO} can be implemented with if-else
04:15:26 <cpressey> i was thinking along different lines, a bit. consider: if you want to make a UTM which will only simulate TM's that halt... it has to prove that they halt first, which of course runs smack up against the halting problem
04:15:54 <cpressey> PL-{GOTO} is more than if-else. it contains loops. but the loops are guaranteed to halt
04:16:17 <calamari> right, so I can unroll the loops
04:17:07 <calamari> then I'd have a programming language where there was only if-else statements.. or are the loops not unrollable?
04:18:31 <cpressey> "When a LOOP statement is encountered, the value of the LOOP variable specifies the # of times that the group of statements inside the LOOP is to be executed"
04:18:43 <cpressey> the variable doesn't need to be constant
04:18:48 <cpressey> i don't think you can unroll that.
04:19:15 <Sgeper> But LOOP variable's value can't be changed inside the loop?
04:19:23 <calamari> I guess it assumes that the loop var won't change
04:20:03 <calamari> if it can't, then that should mean we could work backwards and discover the value of the loop variable?
04:20:29 <cpressey> if you say: LOOP X ; X <- X + 1 ; END then the loop occurs only the # of times as X originally contained
04:26:56 <cpressey> in other news, i've been trying to read this book:
04:26:58 <cpressey> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0387982817/103-0339561-1100666
04:30:29 * calamari guesses that mandelbrot is not discussed anywhere inside the text
04:31:04 <pau> wee things that halt
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04:31:09 <calamari> yay.. a non-meaningless graphic used for a book cover
04:31:40 <lament> everything that's fun doesn't halt :(
04:32:55 <calamari> I guess that means you're no fun :(
04:34:13 <lament> what is this PL-{goto} you keep talking abouT?
04:35:15 <calamari> it is a language that Brainerd, et all made up
04:35:50 <calamari> then it subtracts the GOTO statement
04:36:24 <calamari> wonder when that book will get here... hehe
04:36:42 <calamari> I looked at it in the school library for a few mins
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04:44:45 <cpressey> PL-{GOTO} actually looks trivial to implement
04:45:42 <cpressey> the GOTO is the most complicated part of PL, by the looks of it
04:46:00 * lament distrusts languages that halt
04:46:40 <lament> it's not fun when everything can be optimized to a single instruction :)
04:47:12 <cpressey> i trust them to halt :> unless you give them an infinite amount of input or something pathological like that
04:49:08 <lament> i guess one could have fun writing an interpreter for brainfuck-with-limited-running-time in it, or something like that.
04:49:59 <lament> (if that can be done at all...)
04:50:57 <lament> they should have a complementary langugage with programs guaranteed to not halt.
04:51:29 <lament> Solving the halting problem in a neat new way.
04:52:15 <calamari> lament: something like adding [-]+[] to the end of bf programs? :)
04:53:17 <lament> that could work, although i'm sure there're more interesting ways to do this.
04:53:33 <lament> For example a language in which the only statement is GOTO.
04:53:43 <lament> I'll call it GOTO-{PL}
04:54:21 * calamari tests his Linguine interpreter
04:55:04 * lament meditates on the profound differences between "1. goto 1" and "1. goto 2; 2. goto 1"
04:57:25 <cpressey> Program ::= Instruction [Program]
04:57:25 <cpressey> Instruction ::= (Loop | Assignment) ";"
04:57:25 <cpressey> Loop ::= "LOOP" Name ";" Program "END"
04:57:25 <cpressey> Assignment ::= Name "<-" ("0" | Name ["+" "1"])
04:57:25 <cpressey> Name ::= <<begins with a letter, consists of letters and numbers>>
04:57:48 <cpressey> that's my renditiion of an EBNF grammar for PL-{GOTO}.
04:58:07 <cpressey> if it didn't have a hundred other things to do, i'd be tempted to implement it
04:58:11 <lament> that seems horribly impotent
04:58:45 <cpressey> that's certainly a colourful way to say "not turing complete" :)
04:59:07 <lament> well, there's not turing complete and there's not turing complete :)
04:59:23 <lament> computers aren't turing-complete but they can still do a lot of stuff.
05:00:07 <lament> it almost reminds me of that guy's brainfuck variant ages ago on the mailing list.
05:00:18 <cpressey> this thing can multiply arbitrarily large integers together... fsa's can't do that.
05:01:02 <lament> but can you write a web server in it?? I don't think so!!
05:02:00 <lament> is there a name for this class of abilities?
05:02:16 <lament> primitive recursive functions?
05:02:49 <cpressey> yep, primitive recursive functions.
05:03:49 <cpressey> which godel originally thought represented all computable functions. until ackermann gave a counterexample, which is today slightly famous
05:21:30 <calamari> 1[0=72,0$,0+29,0$,0+7,0$,0$,0+3,0$,1=32,1$,0-24,0$,0+24,0$,0+3,0$,0-6,0$,0-8,0$,1+1,1$,1-23,1$]0
05:43:14 <cpressey> calamari: what on earth is that?
05:52:14 <calamari> I made Linguine after implementing BF in Spaghetti and noticing some things that were annoying, but not really esoteric either
05:53:10 <calamari> so now there are infinite pointers, infinite memory cells, and each cell can hold any integer value
05:53:43 <calamari> rather than silly pointer building
05:57:29 <calamari> also adds negative cell values and line numbers just for fun
06:04:38 <lament> cpressey: do you think i should skip tomorrow's lecture? :)
06:05:30 <calamari> lament: infinite number of them, vs Spaghetti only having a single pointer
06:07:12 <calamari> perhaps unlimited is a better term
06:07:56 <lament> yes. I thought you'd have actual infinite pointers somehow.
06:08:20 <lament> whatever _that_ would mean.
06:10:26 <calamari> not very much since infinity isn't a number
06:12:41 <calamari> translation: -1: mem[-2] -= -3; goto -4;
06:14:40 <lament> my infinities are numbers :)
06:25:07 <cpressey> lament: that's up to you, i suppose :)
06:26:27 <lament> we're gonna start objects i think :(
06:31:19 <cpressey> ah, but we also have course evaluations tomorrow, so if you skip, you won't get the chance to affect steve's funding in the future!
06:31:56 <lament> i already had a course with steve
06:32:07 <lament> so i wrote he's the best prof ever and too bad he teaches CS and not math :)
06:32:42 <lament> that should be enough i think :)
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07:48:10 <nooga> my bfi for MIDP1.0 crashes even emulator :F
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08:02:39 <jix> moin nooga
08:02:51 <nooga> 08:47 < nooga> my bfi for MIDP1.0 crashes even emulator :F
08:02:51 <nooga> 08:52 < nooga> im the best
08:03:16 <nooga> midlet programming is cool
08:03:29 <nooga> with netBeans (sic)
08:12:25 <nooga> java isnt so bad under linux
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11:26:05 <lindi-> fizzie: jogl seems to compile on debian unstable quite easily, http://iki.fi/lindi/build-jogl.txt
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12:09:40 <fizzie> lindi; This is debian unstable, and it just didn't compile (tm) here.
12:10:37 <fizzie> I might retry it to see where it failed.
12:10:41 <lindi-> fizzie: those four symlinks need to be fixed at least
12:10:52 <lindi-> i already reported it as a bug
12:11:08 <lindi-> fizzie: try taking exactly the same steps that i took
12:11:34 <fizzie> Later tonight, perhaps.
12:12:07 <fizzie> Although with gcj probably a CNI-based opengl binding thing (instead of the JNI jogl uses) might make more sense.
12:12:49 <fizzie> Have you tried to run anything with the jogl library you compiled?
12:13:11 <lindi-> this vncserver does not provide GLX extension so nope :/
12:14:00 <fizzie> Well, I guess I'll try to compile it.
12:14:14 <lindi-> shouldn't take that long "Total time: 22 minutes 4 seconds
12:15:00 <fizzie> I wonder what's with the "needs LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.4.2-gcj-4.0-1.4.2.0/jre/lib/i386 to find libjawt" thing, too.
12:24:32 <lindi-> fizzie: https://jogl-demos.dev.java.net/source/browse/jogl-demos/ does not seem to respond so I can't get the source for those demos
12:24:58 <fizzie> /home/fis/prog/java/jogl/make/build.xml:1221: The following error occurred while executing this line:
12:25:01 <fizzie> /home/fis/prog/java/jogl/make/build.xml:506: GlueGen returned: 1
12:25:04 <fizzie> Total time: 4 minutes 59 seconds
12:25:49 <fizzie> Seems I missed a symlink.
12:26:21 <lindi-> fizzie: https://jogl-demos.dev.java.net/servlets/ProjectSource says that i need to login to see cvs instructions
12:26:56 <fizzie> Or mispointed, actually.
12:27:27 <fizzie> /usr/lib/jvm/java-1.4.2-gcj-4.0-1.4.2.0/include/linux/jawt_md.h now points to ../../../gcc/[blah], which is missing one '..'.
12:27:35 <lindi-> hope they'll fix those symlinks soon
12:28:45 <lindi-> oh, indeed. i wrote down those instructions AFTER i had built it :)
12:29:24 <fizzie> /home/fis/prog/java/jogl/make/build.xml:1221: The following error occurred while executing this line:
12:29:28 <fizzie> /home/fis/prog/java/jogl/make/build.xml:635: Compile failed; see the compiler error output for details.
12:29:37 <fizzie> [javac] 565 problems (373 errors, 192 warnings)
12:30:30 <lindi-> can you put the full build log online? i used screen's "^a H" to capture it
12:31:32 <lindi-> fizzie: also, that ant build.xml is seriously broken. if the build fails once you have no way to retry easily :)
12:32:06 <lindi-> fizzie: it sets some variables in build targets. if it considers those build targets done the variables are never set and the build fails later because of that
12:32:35 <fizzie> http://gehennom.org/~fis/jogl-ant.txt (and jtest.java in the same directory is a really minimal test executable, which fails with sigsegv here when used with pre-built jogl.jar)
12:32:39 <lindi-> (alternatively i'm missing something very important)
12:33:48 <lindi-> fizzie: rm -fr and unzip the source again and retry ;)
12:35:37 <fizzie> Heh, from Gluegen.java:
12:35:38 <fizzie> * You acknowledge that this software is not designed or intended for use
12:35:38 <fizzie> * in the design, construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear
12:36:31 <fizzie> Already rm'd and restarted. This time under ^a-H from the start.
12:43:15 <fizzie> A simple set of opengl bindings shouldn't really take this long to compile. :p
12:43:57 <fizzie> [javac] 344 problems (344 warnings)
12:44:02 <lindi-> hmm, awt/swing is broken in gcj, gij and kaffe in debian unstable at the moment
12:44:37 <fizzie> Total time: 8 minutes 27 seconds
12:46:07 <fizzie> I'm guessing I'll get the same sigsegv-from-JAWT_GetAWT with this jogl, too.
12:46:45 <lindi-> see above, awt is broken in unstable :/ it works with jamvm and sablevm but i don't know if those can work with jogl
12:47:29 <lindi-> both jamvm and sablevm cause java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: Native library `jawt' not found (as file `libjawt') in gnu.classpath.boot.library.path and java.library.path
12:47:35 <fizzie> Well, SWT (>= 3.2M1 or M2) has an opengl canvas that's usable with jogl, managed to get a black screen with it.
12:47:53 <lindi-> yes, swt works as eclipse uses it :)
12:48:08 <fizzie> But the swt in unstable is 3.1 still.
12:48:16 <lindi-> but try any awt hello world and see it fail with gcj, gij or kaffe
12:49:03 <fizzie> I guess I should get to work now, at least there I'd get paid for having to deal with things that don't work.
12:50:13 <fizzie> Although my Tomcat installation has (knocking-on-a-wooden-surface) miraculously fixed itself, apparently when I upgraded 5.5.9 -> 5.5.12.
12:50:52 <fizzie> It runs on Sun JDK/JRE there. :p
12:51:03 <lindi-> i have glx on this 200MHz pentium system but gij seems to take a while to start...
12:52:50 <lindi-> fizzie: ok, i get a window with title "jogl/awt test..." with some random piexls in it
12:54:08 <lindi-> fizzie: i just did export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/home/lindi/local/jogl/build/obj/; java -cp /home/lindi/local/jogl/build/jogl.jar:. jtest
12:58:04 <fizzie> Wow. I wonder why I don't.
12:58:34 <fizzie> What's that "java" there?
13:03:12 <lindi-> /usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/java
13:05:22 <lindi-> http://fitzsim.org/blog/ seems to mention jogl working too
13:06:59 <lindi-> let's see if i can retrieve source of jogl-demos with http://iki.fi/lindi/cvsweb-dump.pl
13:08:07 <lindi-> hmm, that's not quite secure .P
14:05:51 <fizzie> But didn't you mention a broken awt?
14:06:07 <lindi-> fizzie: i did, that that's why i'm bit puzzled here
14:06:55 <lindi-> fizzie: swing hello world fails with "** ERROR **: file ../../../src/libjava/jni/gtk-peer/gnu_java_awt_peer_gtk_GtkImage.c: line 572 (createRawData): assertion failed: (data_fid != 0)"
14:07:01 <fizzie> With your invocation, I get:
14:07:02 <fizzie> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: libjawt: libjawt.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
14:07:51 <fizzie> And if I add /usr/lib/jvm/java-1.4.2-gcj-4.0-1.4.2.0/jre/lib/i386 to LD_LIBRARY_PATH, I..
14:08:15 <fizzie> I used to get that SIGSEGV I mentioned.
14:08:51 <fizzie> With this gcj-compiled jogl, it doesn't segfault. I might even have a window on my screen now - am not at home, so can't check.
14:09:59 <fizzie> I'd like a native-code-compiled jogl, though.
14:10:47 <lindi-> it's just that gcc is always bit old when it comes to gnu classpath. it's easier to test things with interpreters like jamvm because they can use gnu classpath cvs head directly
14:10:54 <jix> i just found netlogo.. pretty cool program
14:12:00 <lindi-> fizzie: also note that /usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/javac points to ecj
14:15:45 <lindi-> fizzie: i get that UnsatisfiedLinkError if i try to run jtest with jamvm instead of 'java' which is gij
14:16:55 <fizzie> My 'java' is gij too, and I still get it.
14:17:13 <fizzie> Although I'm not sure what I compiled my jtest with, that .class might be old.
14:17:33 <lindi-> note that 'java' needs to be '/usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/java' which sets some LD_LIBRARY_PATH magic and calls gij
14:19:03 <fizzie> That's what my "java" is, but apparently the problem was the .class was compiled with sun-jdk-javac.
14:19:16 <fizzie> Since my 'javac' symlink wasn't auto-managed by debian.
14:20:00 <fizzie> Or maybe it wasn't the problem - I still have that manually corrected LD_LIBRARY_PATH exported.
14:20:03 <lindi-> jix: netlogo seems non-free :/
14:20:38 <lindi-> fizzie: my javac points to /usr/bin/jikes-sablevm
14:21:07 <jix> lindi-: i have much non-free software on my computer
14:21:27 <fizzie> I get the UnsatisfiedLinkError with /usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/javac -cp jogl/build/jogl.jar:. jtest.java ; /usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/java -cp jogl/build/jogl.jar:. jtest unless I manually include /usr/lib/jvm/java-1.4.2-gcj-4.0-1.4.2.0/jre/lib/i386 to LD_LIBRARY_PATH.
14:21:33 <fizzie> (Horribly long directories.)
14:22:00 <jix> big parts of my system are non-free
14:22:20 <lindi-> jix: i find that uncool :)
14:22:37 <lindi-> fizzie: try jikes-sablevm just in case
14:22:42 <jix> i like free-software but i have no problems with not-free software
14:22:51 <fizzie> lindi; Just did. UnsatisfiedLinkError.
14:23:25 <lindi-> fizzie: i'll put full strace output online so you can figure out where our setups differ
14:26:06 <lindi-> fizzie: http://iki.fi/lindi/javac_jtest.strace
14:27:56 <fizzie> Heh, that's a lot of open() attempts when the gcj classloader attempts load com.sun.opengl.impl.GLContextImpl. It tries to find lib-com-sun-opengl-impl-GlContextImpl.la, .so, lib-com-sun-opengl-impl.{la,so}, lib-com-sun-opengl.{la,so}, lib-com-sun.{la,so}, lib-com.{la,so}, and all these in a dozen directories.
14:34:53 <fizzie> I don't see much differences in the javac straces.
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14:35:23 <fizzie> I assume your "java" is smarter than mine and knows where to locate libjawt when run, but I'm not sure why's that.
14:35:27 <lindi-> fizzie: apart from the fact that one fails and the other one doesn't? ;)
14:35:40 <fizzie> Oh, I'm able to compile it just fine.
14:36:14 <lindi-> i thought you got UnsatisfiedLinkError with javac too
14:37:01 <fizzie> Maybe I should've been more clear. I get the error on runtime, but not depending what I've compiled it with (tested jikes, ecj, sun-javac).
14:37:53 <lindi-> i'll provide runtime strace too then
14:39:22 <lindi-> but only to the point where it says that i don't have GLX
14:39:39 <lindi-> since it takes forever to run on the pentium system that has GLX
14:40:16 <lindi-> fizzie: try to compare to http://iki.fi/lindi/java_jtest.strace
14:41:48 <fizzie> I get the same UnsatisfiedLinkError when I "gcj -I jogl/build/jogl.jar -o jtest -lgij -findirect-dispatch jtest.java ; ./jtest -cp jogl/build/jogl.jar jtest", but it possibly-works when I manually set LD_LIBRARY_PATH=the-long-path-to-jawt.
14:44:48 <lindi-> fizzie: ok, i'll try to compile it to native then. usually i don't bother to try since gcj is simply much less flexible than the interpreters at the moment
14:45:58 <fizzie> Well, one thing I easily notice is that "/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.4.2-gcj-4.0-1.4.2.0/jre/lib/i386/" is missing from the open()/access() attempts to locate libs on my system.
14:51:40 <fizzie> I think gcj is supposed to set it automagically. There's some talk in http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/java-patches/2005-q3/msg00285.html
14:52:43 <lindi-> since those straces only use 'jikes' and 'gij', not gcj
14:53:08 <fizzie> "libgcj", it says there.
14:53:24 <fizzie> Here's about jawt: http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/java-patches/2005-q3/msg00295.html
14:54:41 <fizzie> Maybe I should try with 1.0.41-2 of java-gcj-compat instead of 1.0.30-4 I have installed.
14:54:53 <fizzie> (This testing/unstable hybrid is probably worse than unstable. :p)
14:55:10 <lindi-> oh, that's probably it :)
14:55:29 <lindi-> this is completely unstable and has 1.0.41-2
14:57:31 <fizzie> Right, now it works, at least jikes-compiled and with /usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/java. The gcj-native-compiled (-lgij -findirect-dispatch blahblah) doesn't, but might after recompilation.
14:57:57 <fizzie> Heh, interesting, it doesn't.
14:59:24 <fizzie> fis@colin:~/prog/java$ gcj -I jogl/build/jogl.jar -o jtest -lgij -findirect-dispatch jtest.java
14:59:28 <fizzie> fis@colin:~/prog/java$ ./jtest -cp jogl/build/jogl.jar jtest
14:59:30 <fizzie> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: libjawt: libjawt.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
14:59:34 <fizzie> fis@colin:~/prog/java$ jikes-sablevm -cp jogl/build/jogl.jar jtest.java
14:59:35 <fizzie> fis@colin:~/prog/java$ /usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/java -cp jogl/build/jogl.jar:. jtest
14:59:37 <fizzie> libGL warning: 3D driver claims to not support visual 0x23
14:59:45 <fizzie> (That last warning is perfectly normal.)
15:00:39 <fizzie> Well, I don't think I'll use Java for my opengl application after all, anyway. :p
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19:40:41 <Sgep> Bye all; disconnecting for Thanksgiving
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05:01:26 <calamari> did you celebrate the holiday by eating until you nearly popped?
05:02:25 <calamari> need to finish the bf interpreter for Linguine then I'll put it up
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05:56:55 <calamari> almost 80 in here.. my brain is threatening to shut down :(
06:31:12 <GregorR-L> MUST ... NOT ... GIVE IN TO TRIPTOFAN (sp)!!!!
06:44:52 <calamari> ;) http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/turkey.asp
06:49:03 <calamari> good thing I'm writing the bf interp.. just found a language annoyance I need to fix :)
06:51:33 <calamari> I needed to do a double deref but I was only allowing one *
06:51:47 <calamari> so now it should allow unlimited derefs
07:18:47 <calamari> bf is a good test.. always seems to find problems :)
07:32:48 <calamari> http://kidsquid.com/compilers/linguine
07:39:43 <calamari> okay I'm tired.. I'll write the wiki page later
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17:13:11 <jix> moin Keymaker
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18:48:34 <Keymaker> if i remember correct (which i may not), was someone here making c compiler or interpreter in c sometime?
18:49:19 <kipple> why would you want to make a c compiler? there are tons of those... unless it's for some very obscure hardware
18:50:59 <jix> i'm working on a parser for german text adventures
18:51:42 <jix> and anyone that is going to use my parser engine for source-code is stupid..
18:55:09 <Keymaker> kipple: no idea, i wouldn't waste my time on that :)
19:06:05 <jix> HAH! no one cares about my projects...
19:10:46 <jix> you can use my parser for non german too
19:11:02 <jix> but it's complexity is O(n^3) so it's stupid to parse long things using it
19:11:18 <Keymaker> sorry, i don't need it for anything
19:11:34 <jix> you don't want to parse finnish?
19:12:28 <jix> is that a problem?
19:12:34 <lindi-> www.hunspell-fi.org/ is on a crusade to parse finnish :)
19:13:52 <jix> WOW! finnish is really too esoteric (taivutuspäätteitä ???!?!?!(looks very esoteric))
19:16:06 <jix> a funny german sentence (for english speaking people): die, die die, die die Diebe gefangen haben, beleidigt haben, sitzen jetzt im Gefägnis
19:16:39 <Keymaker> well, what's the funny part? :D
19:16:46 <jix> die, die die die die die....
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19:50:43 <Keymaker> if you see calamari around tell him to check his e-mail :) (in case i don't see him today)
19:52:42 <Keymaker> i sent him a linguine quine, but since i don't have interpreter here i'm not 100% sure it works
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19:57:34 <calamari> Keymaker: just ran your quine.. it worked perfectly! Awesome job, especially considering that you didn't test it
20:00:15 <Keymaker> feel free to post it on your site, if you want to.. ;)
20:00:46 <calamari> is it still a quine if it has a comment giving you credit?
20:01:25 <Keymaker> not really, but you can add "(remove this line before executing)" or something
20:01:57 <Keymaker> or credit outside the file, for example "click <here> to see a quine by keymaker" :)
20:02:41 <Keymaker> i'm very happy it works as supposed to
20:03:21 <calamari> I still haven't figured out the secret of quines yet.. although it's been explained to me a few times :)
20:03:51 <Keymaker> i'm happy i realized the secret before reading it up :)
20:04:04 <Keymaker> my first quine ever was in brainfuck, and weighted 7000+ instructions
20:04:21 <Keymaker> but almost all of that was data part
20:06:20 <calamari> http://kidsquid.com/compilers/linguine/
20:11:08 <jix> c=>linguine is maybe possible...
20:11:51 <jix> there was a way to dump the gcc gimple tree (for making a c => linguine compiler)
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20:21:27 <jix> i think it would be possible but i'm not going to do that
20:21:43 <jix> maybe a self-made lang => linguine but not ansi-c
20:21:59 <ihope> I'm slowly converting Haskell's getLine function into Lazy K.
20:30:32 <jix> linguine basic!
20:35:26 <calamari> someday I'd like to learn how to write backends for gcc (with the goal of a BF backend).. perhaps Linguine would be an easier start
20:37:31 <calamari> well I've started the wiki article, but I need to do other work now, so it's missing the program description and commands. Maybe I can just copy and paste out of the spec, since I wrote it :)
20:38:44 <Keymaker> calamari: there's no way to print value directly, without first saving it to memory?
20:39:08 <calamari> because x is always referring to a memory location
20:39:45 <calamari> I had a value in the cell -1 which was the IP for BF
20:39:57 <calamari> so I wanted the command at the IP.. that is *-1
20:40:15 <calamari> but I wanted to store the command in another cell.. so I did -3=**-1
20:40:36 <calamari> If I just did -3=*-1 it would be storing the ip again
20:41:06 <calamari> wasn't technically necessary to allow multiple *'s, but it was easy so I did it
20:41:25 <Keymaker> the brainfuck interpreter written it is quite compact
20:42:23 <calamari> I'm not sure how esoteric the language really is.. but I think it's closer to how I would have wanted Spaghetti to be
20:43:44 <calamari> except the multiple commands per line
20:44:24 <calamari> I did that because of the meaning of the word linguine.. and I like the feature a lot.. but I think it makes it a tad less esoteric
20:45:26 <Keymaker> but it's esoteric language enough :)
20:45:46 <calamari> glad to hear that.. thank you :)
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21:27:44 <Keymaker> hah, some of these bash quotes are actually funny :)
21:35:55 <Sgep> <Keymaker> hah, some of these bash quotes are actually funny :)
21:36:22 <Keymaker> yes..? :) i don't understand..
21:36:29 <Sgep> Which bash quotes
21:36:59 <Keymaker> for example this one http://bash.org/?3169
21:37:32 <Keymaker> :) but, there's naturally a lot crap
21:37:48 <Keymaker> people seem to say allkinds of stupid on some channels..
21:48:34 <jix> ok i'm going to do a mini c-alike => linguine compiler
21:51:12 <jix> no in ruby
21:51:30 <jix> parsing in c is somewhat ARGHGHGHG!HGHDGHDGHAGDHAUDFIi,sogvfjz.k.........
21:51:44 <jix> in ruby i have regexp and a parser generator (not the one i wrote)
21:52:12 <Keymaker> i could only parse one-byte sequences, perhaps :)
22:08:32 * jix is reading c standard ...
22:09:22 * ihope would never understand such a document
22:09:34 <jix> some parts are really simple
22:09:43 <jix> i'm just searching the c operator precedence
22:11:31 <jix> nah.. stupid c standard (me is searching the ruby sources for the ruby operator precedence)
22:11:37 <jix> implementation > spec
22:12:03 <ihope> Maybe you should have grabbed a language like Lazy K instead...
22:12:40 <jix> lazy k isn't well suited for compiling to linguine
22:12:54 <jix> found the ruby operator precedence table
22:13:02 <jix> ruby > c MUAHAHAHAHA
22:17:38 <jix> pretty well suited for c compiling
22:18:32 <fizzie> There are dozens of C operator precedence tables in the 'web.
22:18:59 <jix> yes but i have the ruby one on my hard disk
22:19:02 <jix> and i'm used to the ruby one
22:19:22 <jix> and i'm not making a c compiler but a LinC compiler...
22:19:40 <jix> you won't be able to compile ansi-c code
22:19:49 <jix> but if you know how to code c you will be able to code linc
22:20:03 <jix> Lin(guine)C
22:20:10 <fizzie> The precedence for bitwise &|^ in C doesn't make any sense, anyway.
22:20:21 <fizzie> And &|^ is probably a valid operator in perl 6.
22:20:43 <jix> fizzie: tell me a good operator precedence table
22:21:31 <fizzie> "Good" as in "sensible", or as in "valid <whatever-language>"?
22:22:01 <jix> the first one
22:22:07 <ihope> Prefix notation needs no operator precedence.
22:22:28 <fizzie> You can just do the precedence tables the way you'd expect them to be.
22:22:39 <fizzie> And people'll use parenthesises if they're unsure.
22:22:50 <fizzie> '@array ^_= "foo"' in perl 6 will concatenate "foo" to all elements of array.
22:23:00 <jix> fizzie: i don't expect anything besides + - * / to have some precedence...
22:23:18 <jix> i expect and and or to have some pretty high precedence but that's all...
22:23:32 <ihope> Hmm... catfoo x = [a ++ "foo" | a <- x]
22:24:05 <fizzie> _= is also a perl 6 operator, although I don't know what it does, and it might not render correctly, since those two characters are not ascii.
22:24:15 <fizzie> I think <<_=>> is an accepted way to write that one.
22:24:25 <jix> lazy evaluation is funny.. i wrote a haskell code to generate a list with ALL primes in it...
22:25:08 <ihope> ...And something happened?
22:25:52 <jix> i told haskell to print the list AFTER generating them... you can't do that without lazy evaluation
22:26:15 <Sgep> lazy evaluation?
22:26:52 <ihope> Evaluate just what you need to produce a result.
22:27:45 <ihope> Suppose you have the psuedocode "Return 3, not the highest prime". Eager evaluation would calculate the highest prime and return 3; lazy would just return 3.
22:28:50 <Sgep> not the highest prime?
22:29:29 <ihope> Well, the psuedocode says not to return the highest prime :-)
22:29:54 <fizzie> Here's one version of precedences: assignment - (ternary ?: if you want it) - logical || - logical && - equality tests (==, !=) - relational tests (<, >, <=, >=) - bitwise or/xor - bitwise and - bitshifts - add/sub - mul/div/mod - "the rest" (dereference, address-of, pre/postdecrement/increments) - member-selection (".", "->")
22:32:09 <fizzie> That one is still a bit iffy about the bitwise operations. "a + b << 4" is parsed as "(a + b) << 4", but at least "a == b & 5" is parsed as "a == (b & 5)", unlike C. (In C it would mean "(a == b) & 5".)
22:33:05 <jix> i'm going to make my own....
22:33:19 <jix> i have to do more essential thinks first anyway....
22:34:04 <jix> LinC has no function prototypes!
22:34:45 <jix> (because there is no need for them in the parsing or compiling task of lincc)
22:37:21 <lament> lazy evalution is cool.
22:37:44 <lament> now to make a lazily-evaluated brainfuck...
22:38:27 <jix> i once thought about that
22:44:54 <calamari> jix: you might not be able to do function pointers easily, as pointers only refer to data not to code
22:48:50 * Sgep considerates writing an esolang that uses metakit somehow
22:56:04 <ihope> Hey, I didn't write the spec for FCELL yet, did I?
22:57:12 <ihope> FCELL, the First-Class Execution Language (lol), where the basic data type is the syntax element.
22:59:03 <ihope> Not very much like it.
23:00:16 <ihope> Programs look like [([)[xxx][xxx]]] over here.
23:01:25 <ihope> Well, that program outputs "xxx[[". Very obvious, aye?
23:01:40 <lament> no, but neither is lisp :)
23:03:15 <ihope> The "Hello, world!" program is "[H[Heelloo,, wwoorrlldd!Hello, world!]]".
23:04:18 <ihope> Hmm, no it's not, is it?
23:05:28 <ihope> I guess it's [H[Heelloo,, wwoorrlld@Hello,world!]].
23:06:00 <ihope> Oh right. The "Hello, world!" program is "Hello, world!"
23:06:45 <ihope> Without the quotes.
23:09:02 <ihope> A syntax error in FCELL outputs the junk that didn't parse. Since no character in "Hello, world!" is valid, this will output itself.
23:09:48 <ihope> "This is a quine." is a quine :-)
23:10:20 <ihope> If you want to output something with a right bracket in it, you have to put ] before the output.
23:10:47 <ihope> Outputting a backslash requires ]], and a closing bracket requires ]]].
23:11:13 <Sgep> and just talking to heam himself talk
23:11:54 <ihope> ]]]This [program] will out\put its own source code, except for the first three closing brackets.
23:13:22 <jix> struct test { int a = 1; int b; }; struct test2 { int c = 2; int d; } => [[:struct, "test", [["int", "a", 1], ["int", "b", nil]]], [:struct, "test2", [["int", "c", 2], ["int", "d", nil]]]]
23:13:40 * Sgep believes that he is writing an esolang where each execution step[?] will result in another program in that same language that will pick up where the other left off
23:13:56 <ihope> Who--you or me? :-)
23:14:10 <ihope> Well, that's exactly what FCELL does...
23:15:00 * Sgep 's esolang is going to use metakit
23:15:11 <lament> Sgep: pretty much any language can be looked at in that way...
23:15:52 <ihope> Now, jix's program remaps "[" to "[:" and pops "[s" onto the stack, then pops it back off the stack, then pops off all the three predefineds.
23:16:37 <jix> that's a tree build from ruby arrays.... not a program...
23:16:52 <ihope> It's a valid FCELL program, though.
23:17:05 <Sgep> So far, my language is making it much easier to get input at a time defined at compile-time..
23:17:05 <jix> isn't everything a valid FCELL program?
23:17:47 <ihope> So it outputs "struct test { int a = 1; int b; }; struct test2 ( int c = 2; int d; } => struct, "test", [["int", "a", 1 ["int", "
23:19:05 <ihope> I'm not sure what it outputs.
23:19:34 <Sgep> Also, my language is not going to be easy to provide examples for
23:26:19 <Sgep> Using http://www.equi4.com/metakit.html
23:26:27 <Sgep> So any examples wouldn't be plaintext
23:30:19 <Sgep> move[time:I,branch:S,itable:S,itime:I,ibranch:S,irest:S,otable:S,otime:I,obranch:S,orest:S]
23:30:38 <Sgep> ^^^ one of the tables[?] that programs need to have
23:32:12 <Sgep> Forget the irest
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23:33:56 <Sgep> "Hello world" will be trivial
23:34:19 <ihope> As trivial as in FCELL?
23:36:01 <Sgep> To have branches reset time, or not to have branches reset time, that is the question...
23:37:10 <ihope> Have branches reset everything.
23:37:37 <Sgep> not everything
23:38:10 <ihope> What's time used for?
23:38:31 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht").
23:38:40 <Sgep> The first instruction-like thing is executed at time 0
23:38:52 <Sgep> Certain things can set the branch
23:39:22 <ihope> Okay. Reset the time.
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23:44:53 <Sgep> computer went insane on me
23:45:07 * Sgep abolishes the move table
00:26:38 * ihope sends something to this chat channel
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00:43:20 * lament lets his irc client do it for him
00:46:58 <ihope> Ook! I just realized Haskell's imperative composition thingamajig is "tricky". Then again, maybe not.
00:58:13 <ihope> Yep. I think Haskell's "imperatives" aren't compatible with those of Lazy K.
00:59:40 <ihope> Lazy K just needs two more "characters": GET and END.
01:01:57 <ihope> Hmm, but end-of-list could easily represent this END character, and GET isn't really required anyway.
01:02:04 <ihope> So yep, they're compatible.
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01:35:09 * Sgep calls his language MKBL
01:35:17 <Sgep> MetaKit Based Language
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05:27:24 <calamari> hmm... I wonder if I can change Linguine if it remains 100% backward compatible with the original? :)
05:28:29 <calamari> I think I can make jix's life easier by treating jump locations like y values.. first it's a number, so jump 100, but jump *100 would jump to the line given in cell 100
05:29:39 <calamari> that would make subroutines a lot easier.. could set the return line number then the function can jump to it
05:29:59 <calamari> bah.. gonna do it.. the spec will just need to be amended :)
05:45:44 <calamari> wish I would have thought of it before.. seems obvious now :/
06:17:46 <calamari> and uploaded again.. bug, fixed now
06:19:04 <calamari> now I can write something very similar to c functions
06:19:27 <calamari> by just adding that one thing .. hehe
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08:17:24 <calamari> added a pi calculator and general mult/div/ascii->int examples
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10:39:31 <kipple> LOL. I was reading an example of how to use Yacc and Lex, but I kind of lost my concentration when they started talking about the "analizer"
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12:09:18 * Keymaker grabs the camera and goes to take some snow pictures
12:10:44 <ineiros> I'm afraid fizzie is asleep, but living in the neighbourhood I can say that it is indeed snowing. Slightly.
12:26:50 <Keymaker> back. ok, nice :) and cool, in neighbourhood
12:26:58 <Keymaker> you know fizzie personally, i assume
12:36:15 <Keymaker> ineiros: what's your favourite esolang? :)
12:46:14 <ineiros> Can't say I have one, the esoteric bug hasn't really bitten me... yet. :) Though I find "natural language" esolangs, such as Perligata and Shakespeare rather fascinating.
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14:48:18 <kipple> Perligata? never heard of that one...
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15:58:49 <ihope> I decided once again that Haskell's IO types are not compatible with Lazy K programs.
16:01:51 <ihope> But I found a way to do infinity. Just have an 'a' combinator, which takes a Church numeral and returns the appropriate infinity.
16:02:21 <ihope> Adding a 0 and a + combinator should be able to make anything :-)
16:02:43 <ihope> And an i combinator, I suppose.
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18:41:13 <jix> moin calamari
18:41:39 <calamari> last night I improved Linguine slightly.. should make that c->Ling compiler must easier
18:41:55 <calamari> the only thing I changed was to allow dereferencing of jumps
18:41:55 <jix> yeah i thought linguine had that feature
18:42:13 <jix> (and i noted it because i tried pi with the old interpreter)
18:42:43 <jix> there is one feature i'd like to see .. thats bitshift right by 1 bit...
18:43:21 <jix> i managed to implement it somewhat fast in software (it's speed is log(n)*some_factor now...)
18:43:46 <jix> but that code is messy and it's really needed often
18:44:01 <calamari> I put up generic multiply and divide routines
18:44:30 <jix> yeah i was talking about numbers like 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
18:44:39 <jix> but my div by 2 routine does that pretty fast now
18:44:58 <jix> oh and i used your read-a-number routine in my linguine program.. is that ok?
18:46:04 <jix> here is my collatz program: http://rafb.net/paste/results/Qfq8AC85.html
18:46:25 <jix> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CollatzProblem.html (here is more information)
18:46:32 <calamari> thanks, was just about to ask :)
18:46:50 <jix> just enter a number and it calculates all steps until it reaches 1
18:47:50 <jix> oh and i wouldn't call my language c anymore.. i made too many changes (some because they look nicer some because i don't know how to parse them)
18:48:16 <jix> the most important change is that casting is done in this way int:bla instead of (int)bla
18:49:17 <calamari> btw, does it accept a program on stdin and output on stdout ?
18:49:28 <jix> because the parser i'm using is too stupid to get the difference between (int)bla and (bla)
18:49:34 <calamari> if so, it may be able to be rewritten in Linguine :)
18:50:43 <calamari> I translated that pi program.. it was originally Haskell, someone converted it to Ruby, then I converted it to Python and finally to Linguine
18:50:47 <jix> hah that would be difficult
18:50:56 <jix> because i'm using a parser generator
18:51:07 <jix> that generates ruby code
18:51:16 <jix> and the other parts are all written in ruby too
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18:51:32 <calamari> I'm used to writing my own parsers :) haven't figured out how to use the aut ones yet
18:51:41 <Keymaker> nice looking program jix (can't run it, but looks good visually)
18:51:58 <jix> Keymaker: why can't you run it?
18:52:13 <Keymaker> i don't have python on this computer (this isn't my computer)
18:52:20 <Keymaker> besides, this is old and doesn't have much memory
18:52:53 <jix> line 4 to 8 is my fast divide by 2 routine
18:52:53 <calamari> does it have any compilers or interpreters ?
18:52:59 <jix> the problem with it is that it needs log(n) memory cells... so i can't use it in my compiler
18:53:16 <jix> that's why i'd like to see that divide by 2 instruction
18:56:00 <calamari> I'm afraid to add any instructions.. because then it might be wondered why I don't add > or !=, or and/or/xor/not, ^, etc :)
18:56:28 <calamari> Keymaker: what do you think.. does it become less esoteric if I add multiply and divide?
18:56:48 <jix> not multiply and divide
18:56:52 <jix> that would make it less esoteric
18:57:36 <jix> but a divide by 2 instruction would make it only a pico-bit less esoteric but would make some calculations a lot faster
18:57:44 <calamari> I can cell the right shift >.. that would be funny :)
18:58:49 <calamari> can a general division routine be improved with divide by 2?
18:59:03 <Keymaker> calamari: i mean "no, it doesn't become that less esoteric"
18:59:05 <jix> hmm i think it can
18:59:24 <jix> computers are using right (and left) shifts for division
19:00:36 <jix> a/2 == a >> 1
19:00:57 <Keymaker> i don't know what ">>" does :)
19:00:58 <jix> calamari: wait
19:01:08 <jix> let me see if it really improves generic division
19:01:31 <calamari> Keymaker: it's a right bit shift
19:02:15 <calamari> Keymaker: for example 10 in binary is 1010.. if I shift the bits right I get 101 (the 0 is lost), and 101 = 5
19:02:33 <calamari> so it's the same as 10 / 2 = 5
19:03:08 <calamari> of course if it was 11 (1011) you still get 5 :)
19:03:34 <Keymaker> cool, didn't know of that trick
19:03:57 <calamari> jix: actually, I seem to remember implementing division for the 6502
19:04:05 <calamari> it was binary division if I recall
19:04:17 <jix> you have to remember that we use bignums
19:04:33 <jix> not it floors on odds
19:04:52 <calamari> well it works on odds too, it just drops any remainder
19:06:25 <jix> i think it helps
19:06:28 <jix> you can do:
19:06:31 <jix> 500/1+500/3
19:06:31 <jix> 500/1+250/1+250/3
19:07:02 <jix> very stupid me
19:07:09 <jix> 1000/3 != 666 != 833
19:10:37 <jix> http://courses.cs.vt.edu/~cs1104/BuildingBlocks/divide.030.html there is a shift the divisor one place right
19:11:00 <Keymaker> heh, i was just browsing that page :)
19:12:17 <jix> yeah i know.. but i wasn't getting the right shift in there...
19:13:00 <jix> no a+a = a * 10 (base 2)
19:13:18 <calamari> there are are 10 kinds of people... :)
19:14:04 <calamari> that gives remainder too, which is very nice
19:14:24 * calamari codes it up for his pi program
19:15:18 <jix> and even * 10 (base 10) is easy thats b = a+a; c=b+b; result = c+c+b
19:15:41 <jix> or b = a+a+a result = b+b+b+a
19:17:24 <calamari> I use that often in my pi program
19:17:53 <calamari> if you do a+a then a+a again that is *4
19:18:18 <jix> you do that in your readnum routine too
19:18:55 <calamari> didn't realize you were checking it out that closely :)
19:19:13 <jix> my program is the first one that uses the | operator?!
19:21:08 <calamari> okay, uploaded.. haven't tested it yet, lol
19:21:19 <jix> oh and there is no way to generate a random number...
19:22:38 <calamari> I had a time funciton in Numberix (for random number seeds), but I don't think it was ever used hehe
19:24:12 <jix> 1[1?,1~10:2,0+*0,2=*0,0+*0,0+*0,0+*2,0+*1,0-48]1
19:24:13 <jix> 2[0#,5=10,5$,0~1:0,1=*0,1|1,1<-1:3,0>1]2
19:24:13 <jix> 3[1=*0,0+*1,0+*1,0+1]2
19:24:16 <jix> that's the new collatz
19:26:59 <calamari> now I need to decipherthat and steal the algorithm >:)
19:29:54 <jix> dc -e '10 20 ^ 1 - p' | xargs echo | xargs echo | tr -d ' ' | time python linguine.py collatz2.lng => 1.57 real 0.42 user 0.13 sys
19:30:22 <jix> dc -e '10 20 ^ 1 - p' | xargs echo | xargs echo | tr -d ' ' | time python linguine.py collatz.lng => 9.63 real 4.48 user 0.24 sys
19:30:37 <jix> that's a factor of more than 8 (user time)
19:31:24 <jix> HAH i know how to left shift using > .... 1>-10
19:33:00 <jix> that doesn't work
19:33:02 <jix> stupid python
19:33:08 <jix> ValueError: negative shift count
19:33:24 <jix> ruby knows how to negative shift!
19:33:41 <calamari> that's what you get for trying to use undefined behavior :)
19:33:57 <jix> it wasn't undefined for me.. i'm used to ruby
19:34:03 <calamari> I should do that tho... you can use a neg everywhere else
19:34:32 <jix> Shifts _fix_ left _count_ positions (right if _count_ is negative).
19:34:34 <jix> not undefined!
19:34:41 <jix> ruby defines that
19:35:09 <jix> but there's an error in the documentation... >> and << share the SAME doc...
19:39:00 <calamari> I like the -y trick.. it seems to fit with the lang
19:42:04 <jix> shortened collatz
19:42:04 <jix> 1[1?,1~10:2,0>-1,2=*0,2>-2,0+*2,0+*1,0-48]1
19:42:05 <jix> 2[0#,5=10,5$,0~1:0,1=*0,1|1,1<-1:3,0>1]2
19:42:05 <jix> 3[1=*0,0+*1,0+*1,0+1]2
19:43:28 <calamari> is it faster that using addition, or just shorter?
19:43:55 <jix> but that code is only executed once
19:44:57 <calamari> any opinions on how I can get the high order bit of a number?
19:45:12 <jix> there is no high order bit in bignums
19:45:41 <calamari> not sure how I can implement that binary division then
19:46:04 <jix> http://courses.cs.vt.edu/~cs1104/BuildingBlocks/divide.030.html
19:46:25 <calamari> yeah .. but this line is the problem: If that portion of the dividend above the divisor is greater than or equal to the divisor
19:47:54 <calamari> I found my binary division routine... it also requires getting at the leftmost bit
19:48:12 <jix> i know how to do it without that
19:57:29 <calamari> aha.. if the number is negative then the high order bit is 1, otherwise it is 0
19:58:02 <jix> yes but that doesn't help if you use that algorithm you'd need infinity iterations
20:09:40 <jix> hmm the python << doesn't support bignums well ( i think)
20:09:44 <jix> linguine.py:291: FutureWarning: x<<y losing bits or changing sign will return a long in Python 2.4 and up
20:09:56 <jix> how can x<<y loose bits (it does in python...)
20:10:49 <calamari> dunno.. but it seems to be messing up my lang hehe
20:11:06 <calamari> perhaps we should remove > again
20:11:23 <jix> i'm done with > fast div
20:11:46 <jix> but i can't test it with large numbers because of pythons stupid >> i'm searching a workaround atm
20:12:02 <calamari> oh, is >> giving a problem too ?
20:12:27 <jix> replace x << y with x*(2**y)
20:12:31 <jix> that should fix the problem
20:12:38 <jix> because it works with bignums as it should
20:13:28 <jix> set_cell(x, get_cell(x) * (2**(-y)))
20:15:26 <calamari> uploaded.. I think I may have accidentally put your collatz in the archive last time.. but it was removed this time
20:15:51 <jix> feel free to put my collatz (the latest version) in the archive
20:15:56 <jix> just add a not that it's written by me
20:16:21 <calamari> I'll have it separate so it is more visible
20:16:48 <jix> http://rafb.net/paste/results/igb2Op10.html
20:17:13 <jix> i used large numbers for lables and mem positions because you have to change them if you use the routine in your program
20:17:24 <jix> and it is fast...
20:18:08 <jix> user 0m0.324s for 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999/7
20:18:28 <jix> multiplication is somewhat trivial
20:18:33 <calamari> can I use that in my pi program?
20:18:51 <jix> all my linguine code snippets are public domain
20:19:43 <jix> you may want to remove the last line and do the 44>1 at some other position
20:19:50 <jix> because it returns the result *2 by default
20:21:31 <calamari> perhaps I'm missing something but I think I can remove line 1001
20:23:08 <jix> no.. take the case 55==66
20:24:21 <jix> and you have to re-init 77 to 0 if you call it a 2nd time
20:24:39 <calamari> 1000[55<*66:1002,66>-1,77+1]1000
20:24:39 <calamari> 1002[44>-1,99=*55,66>1,77-1,77<0:*-1,55<*66:1002,55-*66,44+1]1002
20:25:16 <jix> i missed the case 55==66 a long long time ago and had to use two lines
20:26:16 <jix> i really like linguine
20:27:05 <jix> oh and my LinC compiler executes lines=lines.sort_by{rand} after compiling ;)
20:27:38 <jix> but i still have to write the part between parsing and calling that...
20:32:02 <calamari> hmm I think I messed it up.. lol
20:32:12 <calamari> 102[-2>-1,99=*-5,-4>1,-6-1,-6<0:*-1,-5<*-4:102,-5-*-4,-2+1]102
20:33:10 <calamari> I just removed the remainder since I did not need it
20:33:26 <jix> then remove 99=*-15
20:33:43 <calamari> well it shouldn't matter in any case
20:35:09 <calamari> (trying to make it act like my original so I can plug it in)
20:36:16 <jix> wait you can't switch between -2 and -4 in the code
20:36:32 <jix> wait.. i have to check my code
20:36:40 <calamari> yeah I probably changed too much at once
20:39:04 <calamari> yeah I messed it up someplace.. I'll try again
20:39:15 <jix> remove the a>b condition
20:39:28 <jix> nothing to do with your problem
20:39:37 <jix> but it works without that restriction
20:40:07 <calamari> it seems that line 1003 is needed
20:40:17 <calamari> the answer doesn't seem to be *2
20:41:17 <jix> but line 103 does nothing more than divide by 2
20:41:40 <jix> (with *2 i wasn't talking about the position 2 points to)
20:44:10 <jix> does it work now?
20:46:17 <jix> calamari: ping
20:51:36 <calamari> got it.. it was my silly mistake (just finished :)
20:51:39 <calamari> 200[-5=*-2,-4=*-3,-2=0,-6=0]201
20:51:39 <calamari> 202[-2>-1,99=*-5,-4>1,-6-1,-6<0:203,-5<*-4:202,-5-*-4,-2+1]202
20:51:52 <jix> remove 99=*-5
20:52:18 <jix> you can do *x as a jump target on the end of a line too?
20:53:14 <jix> my div routine is surprisingly compact...
20:53:26 <jix> i thought it would be a lot bigger
20:56:28 <calamari> I'm not seeing a huge speed difference between the two
20:56:52 <calamari> for two lines of pi it took 24 seconds with the new and 25 with the old
20:57:18 <jix> maybe the division wasn't the slow part in it
20:57:30 <jix> or the numbers are too small to see the difference
20:57:51 <calamari> it gets some huge numbers.. but the numbers it is dividing by are relatively small
20:58:04 <jix> wait if the dividend is about the same as the divider both are equivalent fast
20:58:38 <jix> in your pi thing?
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20:58:52 <jix> how does your divide work
20:59:01 <jix> result is small a and b are about the same size.. right?
20:59:16 <jix> yeah then a and b are about the same size
20:59:38 <jix> (it has to be so... if a is big and b is small repeated subtraction is very slow)
21:00:58 <calamari> 812972754127758592775274035577391041579186330552469296119363243600296019639208984375000318537578519104536384176423385561174750764872736614900378433832599380450864237060546875
21:01:17 <calamari> hmm lost the division sign there
21:01:41 <calamari> 812972754127758592775274035577391041579186330552469296119363243600296019639208984375000 / 318537578519104536384176423385561174750764872736614900378433832599380450864237060546875
21:02:01 <ihope> It's the A-in-a-box.
21:02:32 <calamari> but in my term it's a division symbol
21:02:56 <ihope> I've been having problems with A's-in-the-boxes lately...
21:02:56 <lindi-> calamari: what encoding are you using?
21:03:21 <calamari> dunno.. I should set it to utf 8
21:03:35 <ihope> I think that's what I'm using.
21:03:40 <lindi-> calamari: no, just stick to ascii :)
21:04:04 <calamari> I guess x-chat picks its own default
21:04:40 <calamari> anyhow those numbers are quite large
21:04:56 <calamari> wouldn't want to calculate that by hand :)
21:07:33 <ihope> I'm trying to calculate ack 4 1 by hand.
21:08:25 <ihope> So far, I have ack 3 (ack 1 (ack 1 (ack 1 (ack 0 (ack 1 4))))).
21:12:07 <ihope> ack 3 (ack 1 (ack 1 (ack 1 7)))
21:15:16 <ihope> Lemme define an alternative ack function...
21:16:00 <ihope> ack [n:0:xs] = ack [n+1:xs]
21:16:33 <ihope> ack [n:0:xs] = n+1
21:17:21 <ihope> Grr. ack n:0:xs = n+1
21:17:35 <ihope> ack 0:m:xs = ack 1:m-1:xs
21:17:54 <ihope> ack n:m:xs = ack n-1:m:m-1:xs
21:19:49 <ihope> So I'm computing ack [1,4].
21:20:34 <calamari> hey, pgimeno contributed to he talk page :)
21:21:03 <calamari> he suggested http://en.wikipedia.org/math/2/1/b/21b63e721296a61d600d6bbcce802029.png
21:24:07 <pgimeno> because of its interesting properties for understanding how the hierarchy is formed
21:24:29 <ihope> ...So ack 4 1 = 2?
21:25:02 <pgimeno> with this definition, yes; with the regular definition, no
21:25:07 <pgimeno> i.e. they are not "compatible"
21:28:26 <ihope> ack 3 (ack 1 (ack 1 9))
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21:43:07 <ihope> comp x y z = y (comp x-1 y z)
21:44:53 <ihope> ack m n = comp n+2 (ack m-1) 0
21:46:21 <ihope> ack m 0 = comp 3 (ack m-2) 0
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02:32:53 <ihope> ack (9 -> 9 -> 9 -> 9, 9 -> 9 -> 9 -> 9)
02:53:30 <ihope> So I hear it's possible to write a Brainhype program that will check to see if it halts, and if it does, infinite-loop?
02:56:23 <lament> because brainfuck is TC, that should be possible
02:57:14 <ihope> Hmm... maybe someone could write one and post it on the forums?
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03:01:25 <lament> actually, probably not...
03:06:31 <lament> now that i think about it, brainhype doesn't create any paradoxes
03:06:52 <lament> you can't "break" the {} instruction
03:20:51 <calamari> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainhype
03:21:40 <calamari> guess that one won't be implemented soon :)
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03:49:29 <Sgep> Could the alternative version of Brainhype be implemented?
03:51:33 <GregorR-L> I've not seen of it, I'm not at home and don't have the logs therefore.
03:52:15 <Sgep> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainhype ?
03:53:41 <Sgep> hmm...... When there is code between the {}, simply have run a Brainhype interpreter on it, ignoring IO, and when done, places 0 on the current cell
03:53:54 <Sgep> If it never halts...
03:56:22 <Sgep> GregorR: Not with the alternative specified...
03:56:43 <GregorR-L> You can't compute whether a program will halt.
03:57:34 <Sgep> GregorR-L: If the program between the {} doesn't halt, then the whole thing doesn't halt
03:59:22 <GregorR-L> Oh, wait, I see .... so really it just runs whatever's in {} ...
04:02:11 <Sgep> (Of course, referring to the alternative)
04:04:47 <fizzie> I want a befunge interpreter on a DVD player VM, but the silly thing completely lacks all heap-style memory, it only has something like 16+24 32-bit registers. (And it does all the normal binary operators (and, or, xor) on those registers, which is probably oh-so-useful when all you can do is jump to title number N (or select audio track N) on the disc.)
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04:11:18 * calamari suggests the play button on the remote ;)
04:30:20 <fizzie> One can do simple I/O from the registers by having short video-clips containing a single number, and then playing those back in an ordered sequence. But the lack of memory is a rather severe restriction.
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04:32:52 <Sgep> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/MKBL.txt <<< My personal notes on a language I'm making
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05:49:55 <Sgep> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/MKBL.txt
05:50:01 <Sgep> ^^^ personal notes
05:50:12 <Sgep> NOT specs (too unreadable...)
05:50:22 <Sgep> And it's nowhere near done
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11:00:57 * nooga is writing libsadol :)
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11:15:24 <jix> moin nooga
11:18:00 <jix> tired... zzZZ....
11:19:16 <nooga> ehhe.. im writing libSADOL ;p
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12:56:25 <jix> moin Keymaker
12:59:47 <Keymaker> i'm writing a sci-fi short story
13:16:15 <jix> 1[0=2920010139644052621]3
13:16:15 <jix> 3[1#,1=*0,0>1,1|1,1|*1,1<1:4]3
13:16:15 <jix> 4[3=9223372036854781733,2=*0,0|*3,3|*3,2|*2,3|*2,0|*3,0|*0]3
13:18:16 <jix> it should have a period of 2^64
13:20:49 <jix> pseudo random number generator
13:21:38 <jix> the first big number is the seed
13:21:53 <jix> the 2nd big number shouldn't be changes because in most cases it results in a lower period
13:23:50 <jix> it generates 16 exabytes (thats 17179869184 gigabyte) without repeating
13:24:12 <jix> but that isn't much compared with MT
13:24:39 <jix> Mersenne Twister
13:24:59 <jix> it repeats after:
13:25:00 <jix> 401905253286302336310524075882315620691881984772785706926626203712386142475312397920568600570024779676881338825986244113351239052923251072964894298041324764667152197507595608912426234357864418091824411586330057869665946141863093669075408727648975046759118648448869552382652510009963247929821784108659705296105115446136682110298092945440999871700665997787829001362565702771561413870308725670672327694754890845839328233974660572797306528790646305422138696
13:25:00 <jix> 953421669830456914566725163342423408909376719040437562394366174505002702240776846118942006685152787793869924857721928202341120370182281796905369924998191834449779803307606175045017464512722290264734001793201898977068433313657186656111382343558398878830515863014151395916388419359664339721556758243878140965234297840366774744663885561665950791281690041923863361315573392987259286200765857602241981000308373847518919762191244441163264999384252627068372033
13:25:02 <jix> 763111933980550327534027629016684766185140254468796078835436354368351649215978886270470928451660048312951427468905541138223278914882273249567933713889062224031935413805139845547524008619593826820035713606314057959271250843507832621367887924746386518091551034509831977332030888003937697939028884420167676864318828086560698518626411885386315090235498881811701636151255397071779075040277054989648673189942462029818497132474212455947188692775527087237185159
13:25:07 <jix> 285590811568299895764642182655379678933841624928789735624686101266822082312651269641096431819119244285586424906522611733370654073363587322562241118375794792204641863670475294474292246969596946939625424745445705551569518210600261983148606395664183203617942963284017811862197413912312554993243967760894843088345345453558909635202751480109693467398530223859606275400533788896904933482341635963009873092800072519775784718634522305851641058860350428723734409
13:25:14 <jix> 465783733761635505812515964174132520069518882090187528070784131316255311617158576067481328016007555012139598198968935842223544200014498804384934079245514095813239200626816475285642492404879924885373645381534804456517361693374798823490984080501745948314651320031345914976730651979960073639663455753842287970932922599362978717180758402898450916792059614416362424154632339935683280993906592580557520035536539145208631964961604162559243909099550162201200541
13:25:21 <jix> 471672631326137201415532103096019583120909261804468744780038739084112996375538286284027488435784102137449609286800223753555687919990567435340481755240290277607498175543139914790884517656643197200835111263671941029197734265368431172849344872058242193876826014077933957565416164855051227975133151022507833089361070352161316657271161383352851137068879548299505935412828240732837247696414242779441034794252355403191062065480395091519540873724723403575106334
13:25:28 <jix> 778762119321672003339440280866230493413016937925959062149095369331265423917515210582163905707952837342344688802796881636671941656836630477110586935364074881632858514937363011998417234225376788375805269112022269520313087790353239316564868842832537899680952926212017677651906238612740832608657999618078048290359428011992699227524026914199805244825657286558393035231894725808402742302969011883433452283242200647862328487302512172034250392866137194030560105
13:25:33 <jix> 778687406520608632121689650146274195622947884674329435506772711365572438133116905792497645867747401977407239274787144705228582781864687572261213573995264016991868759518545974120341513676822563771002487209436637535104430459326213982153606058542718202626644550745420413475747045005042533456774308703385617977579870024900082543661374474559380983420415482517172007668415904820305998270106312255807070243471996136965997260449112167264107699690234412423447395
13:25:38 <jix> 751412485882393683682934285368714358137360698128273825121478705374641886644388515859629240250196682286812719529901402217066646212755457520520106456039225376069962370228551948779804054682070886550563475736133679097160940039162605462369232499088528965234298316387788928496019422030861288877732133192380843051003320130591569633154031319643391412814338033297382591195556028259695648435484016352771640485017238431635983821944336722119761018553787092706467972
13:25:44 <Keymaker> how do you calculate that number?!
13:25:47 <jix> 174313737945085434274243842124636297627305078791012909092381415173324566434929087580150769085601728991068098774710981378965960366097338952394567498161562790117523561200066553602210197696066643673044077932497572332289384254392826007687634946646692624097351215512761675552914350269141136950360241936638656691239914642944722040881522059749593399427778490894646105795714192242821626563338695357208232861531404601905556488796698821565663592827061837651085398
13:25:52 <jix> 714141451488377947321936647854584724449197309257648689992886833833602510587001942847167051478799654202027680038526833442117780938322359165320989777126610382329712863008140208329710041019106708197507613351771250043648529363865103809210936836800486399851875943451238596594984294102060281494270496715405988262168724641148130993418086798761968434504156980407953434701066696596842406280927076168905398064849886617375798772307601582850973655536893324365662798
13:25:57 <jix> 543029605211676137100879919371781374433526383055549267985159945364042940898560871355096477789687992786023254959148414278324275703077091760517246969630424801588513121008007965383640801367552077318329224874606656014520888406142112822156057722103025817173286991581139323475871036331668228805199013472211271589826088241928166926201134103251802606886197245441864446532161737524150797682448927728213170166254167484512609907951741609138165963904068226247106174
13:26:02 <jix> 508460595627883667103823785616370812910983804500731206138729340991498443808015978016201002530918857149702932803481398352865790226132299264376246143205641418087767689473261995986735350044161104544930288228165894745359996087420647568603169180537022929978058600979018342652811953308939013780706438708452038056052665263320083478237083749452018379785078399027828461636855545733655124132393420144891490343097763944394018354454966604339945971413594497969441851
13:26:07 <jix> 18652403114494638117608816547554166036536718641160638647554605691604189678640504837566913017664795312128
13:26:13 <jix> hm that number didn't fit on one line
13:26:15 <jix> using ruby code: 2**19937/2**30
13:26:17 <jix> the period of MT is 2**19937 and one gigabyte is 2**30 bytes
13:26:28 <jix> ** is power btw
13:26:46 <jix> python would do that too
13:26:51 <jix> haskell too
13:26:55 <jix> linguine too!
13:27:14 <Keymaker> it's just the matter of writing the code
13:27:23 <jix> but ruby's number output algorithm is inefficient
13:27:30 <jix> it's a simple divide and reminder algorithm
13:27:44 <jix> you can write a pure ruby algorithm that performs better!
13:28:00 <Keymaker> perhaps it'll change in the future, then
13:28:17 <jix> using the mid-divide and reminder algorithm (i don't know if that is the name but that is what it does)
13:30:32 <jix> but my prng isn't cryptographic secure
13:30:35 <jix> MT neither
13:31:17 <fizzie> > (/ (expt 2 19937) (expt 2 30))
13:31:28 <fizzie> Most sensible languages have built-in bignums. :p
13:32:05 <jix> one could implement a MT with a period of 2**25964951
13:33:17 <fizzie> I'm having trouble with my prolog-scheme. :/
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15:32:58 <calamari> jix: after seeing your cool rng, I added a time in seconds since the epoch feature.. if you use this for the seed you can change line 1 to: 1[0^]3
15:33:39 <calamari> I figured nobody would use it, but what the heck.. why not hehe
15:34:10 <Keymaker> i'm writing a sci-fi short story
15:35:20 <calamari> oh yeah.. I remember seeing that in the logs now. How is that going?
15:35:56 <jix> calamari: cool
15:36:19 <Keymaker> i've had some fun (imho) things in it
15:37:07 <calamari> are you planning on releasing it?
15:37:42 <Keymaker> perhaps i will let those to see it who want to read it
15:38:06 <calamari> yeah, let me know.. I generally like sci-fi stuff
15:40:51 <calamari> jix: it seems to always start with 0.. am I just lucky?
15:44:01 <jix> calamari: no
15:44:08 <jix> the first number is printed after the first tap
15:44:28 <jix> look at line 3
15:45:42 <calamari> 4[3=9223372036854781733,2=*0,0|*3,3|*3,2|*2,3|*2,0|*3,0|*0]2
15:46:38 <jix> adding a 1# to the end of line 3 and 4 would be shorter
15:47:20 <jix> oh and it isn't a very strong prng
15:48:49 <calamari> 2[1=*0,0>1,1|1,1|*1,1<1:3,1#]2
15:48:49 <calamari> 3[3=9223372036854781733,2=*0,0|*3,3|*3,2|*2,3|*2,0|*3,0|*0,1#]2
15:49:20 <calamari> perhaps not.. but it'd be good for games, etc
15:49:42 <jix> but for games one could use a period smaller than 2**64
15:49:59 <calamari> I was looking at the timer function.. but it can only guarantee 1 second accuracy
15:50:28 <calamari> so it's no good for speed limiting a game
15:50:55 <jix> and there is no way to controll the tty device
15:51:08 <jix> for getting non-blocking input
15:51:11 <jix> or non-echoing input
15:51:32 <jix> linguine sdl bindings would be cool
15:51:43 <jix> or linguine dynamic linker bindings => call any c lib!
15:52:26 <jix> but that is maybe a bit bloated
15:52:33 <calamari> I don't know anything about those really
15:53:15 <jix> i know how to call the dynamic linker using ruby/dl but with python i have no idea
15:54:22 <calamari> if you can call c libraries, that would really improve your c ompiler :)
15:54:41 <jix> but it would make linguine insecure
15:54:55 <calamari> yeah I dunno.. I think I'll just leave it be :)
15:55:20 <calamari> was looking up how to do this in python and its not great :)
15:56:43 <jix> btw this ( 2=*0,0|*3,3|*3,2|*2,3|*2,0|*3,0|*0 ) is 0^=3
15:57:11 <calamari> you can always use an i/o extender with any esolang to enhance the i/o abilities
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17:54:25 <Keymaker> i made up a new quit message: "You can never read this quit message fully in one exact point of time. When you're reading one part of it, how do you know the other parts remain as they were when you read them?"
18:06:41 <lirthy> I zipped that message: "Leaving".
19:12:56 <fizzie> 3.80 seconds to calculate the value of (letrec ((fib (lambda (n) (if (= n 1) 0 (if (= n 2) 1 (+ (fib (- n 2)) (fib (- n 1)))))))) (fib 8)) -- this must be one of the slowest scheme systems ever built.
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19:38:41 * Sgep is superhypoer\
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21:12:15 <Sgep> Attempting to restart into ReactOS
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22:24:17 <Keymaker> well, the first draft of the story is finished
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00:06:56 <calamari> 300[-2|*-2]*-1 'NOT: -2 = NOT(*-2)
00:07:33 <calamari> 301[-2|*-3,-2|*-2]*-1 'AND: -2 &= *-3
00:07:55 <calamari> 302[-2|*-2,-4=*-3,-4|*-4,-2|*-4]*-1 'OR: -2 |= *-3
00:08:18 <calamari> 303[-4=*-3,-4|*-4,-4|*-2,-2|*-2,-2|*-3,-2|*-4]*-1 'XOR: -2 ^= *-3
00:08:39 <calamari> 304[-2|*-2,-4=*-3,-4|*-4,-2|*-4,-2|*-2]*-1 'NOR: -2 = ~(*-2 | *-3)
00:09:02 <calamari> 305[-4=*-3,-4|*-4,-4|*-2,-2|*-2,-2|*-3,-2|*-4,-2|*-2]*-1 'XNOR: -2 = ~(*-2 ^ *-3)
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00:09:21 <calamari> 306[-3=*-2,-2=0,-2-*-3]*-1 'NEG: -2 = -*-2, -2 = !*-2
00:10:36 <calamari> Sgep: using NAND to construct the other logic operators
00:11:32 <calamari> p AND q = (p NAND q) | (p NAND q)
00:11:49 <calamari> p AND q = (p NAND q) NAND (p NAND q)
00:12:02 <calamari> p OR q = (p NAND p) NAND (q NAND q)
00:12:19 <Sgep> calamari: is this online somewhere?
00:12:48 <Sgep> If it isn't, I can put it online
00:13:13 <calamari> so I'll put that up in the linguine distro
00:13:36 <calamari> I did find XOR online, (Mathworld)
00:13:47 <calamari> It happens to be one NAND shorter than jix's
00:14:34 <calamari> p XOR q = (p|(q|q)) | ((p|p)|q)
00:17:31 <calamari> it's possible that NOR and XNOR could be made shorter
00:17:50 <calamari> because I'm simply doing another NOT at the end and that may not be optimal
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04:40:05 <calamari> cool... 4 nand xor: 303[-4=*-3,-4|*-2,-2|*-4,-4|*-3,-2|*-4]*-1
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12:16:54 <jix> calamari: i just did ((a or b) and not (a and b)) => ((a or b) and (a Nand b)) => ((not a Nand not b) and (a Nand b)) => not ((not a Nand not b) nand (a Nand b)) (not is done using a nand a)
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14:30:50 <puzzlet> first, state your identification
14:30:57 <puzzlet> second, finish your statement
14:32:21 <Gs30ng> still don't know... why don't you first identify yourself? that'll be a guide for me
14:34:07 <Gs30ng> impossible to see any utf-8 character... mIRC sucks
14:36:07 <lirthy> why don't you use telnet?
14:36:26 <Gs30ng> my windows telnet is on cp949
14:36:50 <Gs30ng> do you know how to make it utf8-based?
14:37:11 <lirthy> do you know "putty" client?
14:37:24 <lirthy> it surpports utf-8 greatly.
14:37:36 <Gs30ng> oh, well, i use it for ssh connection...
14:38:02 -!- Freya has joined.
14:38:06 <Gs30ng> but well, IRC with a telnet client is... well crap it sucks more than mIRC
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14:39:27 <puzzlet> all you have to do is \rJOIN #esoteric and some others
14:39:31 <lirthy> don't you want utf-8? it's good solution for utf-8 chat - except for ping manually.
14:39:56 <jix> Gs30ng: get xchat
14:40:30 <Gs30ng> jix, i'd love to but my xchat is cracked
14:40:41 <lirthy> who's the bad cracker?
14:40:42 <Gs30ng> i mean, it totally does not work on my machine
14:40:57 <jix> get a new machine
14:41:19 <Gs30ng> DCC-send me a new machine
14:42:13 <Gs30ng> lirthy, nice to meet you... have we already met?
14:42:53 <Gs30ng> or are you a newcomer of esolang community? then, welcome
14:42:53 <lirthy> choose the red pill, and you can see the truth
14:44:01 <lirthy> Blue pill may taste Pepse Blue
14:44:33 <Gs30ng> lirthy, then DCC-send me both. i'll choose.
14:44:45 <puzzlet> don't blame that it's not that bad
14:45:23 <Gs30ng> i haven't drunken any Pepsi blue... i really wonder how it would be tasted
14:47:05 <lirthy> there's a report of brave man in wikipedia... he said it's much more sugary
14:47:27 <Gs30ng> is that 'deployment' on topic a typo, or are esolangs truly deployed to our society(maybe secretly)?
14:48:18 <puzzlet> "brave man" reminds me of something
14:52:23 <Gs30ng> i'm waiting for what you say
14:52:52 <puzzlet> you are on the way to destruction
14:53:50 <Gs30ng> dude, that's way out of fashion
14:55:19 <Gs30ng> i've got some questions about the language... Brainhype.
14:56:39 <Gs30ng> Can anybody explain me what {...} instruction does? Description on wiki is kinda hard to understand... Maybe because of my humble English
14:57:00 <puzzlet> gimme the url and i'll explain that
14:57:27 <Gs30ng> thx it's here http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainhype
14:58:21 <puzzlet> i don't understand it either
14:58:34 <puzzlet> why are the citrus placed there anyway
14:59:14 <Gs30ng> i mean i don't know why either
15:02:40 <Gs30ng> but anyway i like them
15:03:48 <Gs30ng> they matches on the wiki... with numerical expressions, with program codes, i think
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15:37:47 <ihope> What paradigm should our Esoteric Operating System be?
15:38:25 <jix> oh i thought language...
15:38:30 <ihope> How about imperative, a la Haskell?
15:38:52 <Gs30ng> haskell is a stack-based imperative language
15:39:06 <jix> haskell isn't stack based
15:39:09 <jix> and haskell is functinal
15:39:23 <ihope> Haskell's do notation looks imperative :-)
15:39:24 <Gs30ng> stack-based imperative = functional
15:39:55 <jix> applies 1 to + and 2 to 1 applied to +
15:40:09 <Gs30ng> now a stack-based imperative language
15:40:12 <jix> but thats just standard lamda calculus notation nothing stack based
15:40:28 <Gs30ng> 1 pushes 1 to the top of stack
15:40:28 <ihope> jix:It applies (+) to 1 and then to 2.
15:40:32 <jix> it's the same as (((+) 1) 2)
15:40:34 <Gs30ng> 2 pushes 2 to the top of stack
15:41:04 <jix> it's interpreted as (((+) 1 ) 2)
15:41:06 <ihope> And what about all those piles of syntactic sugar?
15:41:21 <Gs30ng> is a reversed haskell code.
15:41:47 <jix> Gs30ng: haskell uses currifizing arguments that's why it looks like stack based but it isn't
15:42:09 <jix> it FIRST does ((+) 1) ... resulting in another function
15:42:18 <Gs30ng> curry style is kinda stack-based imperative
15:42:20 <ihope> Infix operators! Hoes do those work?
15:42:20 <jix> than it does (this_function 2)
15:42:29 <jix> ihope: syntactic sugar
15:43:15 <Gs30ng> jix: well i was just kidding... but aren't they similar?
15:43:38 <Gs30ng> stack-based imperative one could be reversed-curry style functional one.
15:43:46 <jix> Gs30ng: take a look at imperative_programming on wikipedia
15:43:58 <jix> the 2nd paragraph says it's different from functional languages like haskell
15:44:11 <Gs30ng> well most of imperative ones are
15:44:17 <jix> In computer science, imperative programming, as opposed to declarative programming, is a programming paradigm that describes computation in terms of a program state and statements that change the program state.
15:44:21 <Gs30ng> but 1-stack based imperative ones aren't
15:44:26 <jix> in functional languages there is no local state!
15:44:34 <jix> and imperative languages only modify the local state...
15:44:40 <jix> so they are different from ground on
15:45:52 <ihope> How about using Enigma as a platform for our operating system? It's a good virtual machine.
15:46:06 <Gs30ng> but whatever the structure and kernal way it has, apparently 1-stack-based imperative one and functional one are similar
15:46:19 <jix> Gs30ng: they arn't similar
15:46:36 <ihope> They are somewhat similar.
15:46:37 <jix> they look a bit similar but they are completely different
15:46:48 <Gs30ng> we can see the stack itself as an argument of function
15:48:07 <jix> of course you can try to combine them but then it's neither functional nor imperative programming...
15:48:27 <jix> in functional programming there is no evaluation order.. (that's why haskell uses monads)
15:49:15 <ihope> No defined evaluation order...
15:49:42 <jix> well our computer forces the interpreter to do some evaluation order...
15:50:08 <ihope> Indeed, there has to be some evaluation :-)
15:50:09 <jix> but super parallel computers could evaluate everything at one time... the language doesn't care
15:51:36 <Gs30ng> well, without any care of classes, monads, defining functions... state a language with reversed order of haskell
15:51:56 <Gs30ng> then 1 2 (+) represents 3
15:52:30 <Gs30ng> and now state a stack based imperative one, 1 pushes 1, 2 pushes 2, + adds top two element...
15:52:35 <jix> take lazy-k with reversed source...
15:52:53 <jix> and add macros for curch numerals and things...
15:53:00 <ihope> And what happens when you add all that "tricky" stuff?
15:53:11 <Gs30ng> they look really similar
15:53:24 <Gs30ng> ihope, excuse me but what do you mean
15:53:26 <jix> let's make it pure functional (like lazy k)
15:53:39 <jix> but change the syntax so that it is possible to program in
15:53:54 <ihope> Lazy K's possible. Very possible.
15:53:56 <jix> (macros etc but no recursive macro expansion)
15:54:07 <jix> ihope: you program in lazy k without tools?
15:54:22 <jix> yeah ok it is possible
15:54:40 <jix> it is possible to write subskin too so well i guess lazyk too
15:55:25 <ihope> But I'd like to make it so Lazy K's programs are compatible with Haskell's IO types.
15:55:55 <Gs30ng> well, i've been thinking about 2-dimensional functional one
15:56:21 <ihope> Me too, but not very long...
15:56:55 <Gs30ng> i've found a way reducing all <>^v
15:57:29 <ihope> I know the apply operator could be replaced with substituted function composition.
15:57:51 <Gs30ng> i don't think they are needed for functional one, since they controls the flow
15:58:14 <Gs30ng> 2-dimensional flow control is kinda... it seems it's only important for procedural ones
16:04:10 <ihope> Hey: what if the language itself evolved along with the evaluation?
16:20:27 <ihope> A program in that language would have to have an interpreter for that program before it.
16:20:44 <ihope> And the interpreter would have to have an interpreter, etc...
16:33:19 <ihope> data Maybe Maybe a = Just Just a | Just Nothing | Nothing
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19:48:05 <calamari> 2[1=*0,0>1,1|1,1|*1,1<1:3,1#]2
19:48:05 <calamari> 3[3=9223372036854781733,2=*3,2|*0,0|*2,2|*3,0|*2,1#]2
19:49:03 <calamari> method was from this page: http://www.play-hookey.com/digital/xor_function.html
20:05:08 <calamari> all the new stuff has been uploaded
20:05:23 <calamari> you probably have all of it tho
20:07:19 <calamari> jix: how is your bf text gen going?
20:08:29 <jix> i have one lhs working
20:08:34 <jix> but it isn't really efficient...
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03:24:50 <calamari> yay, the Brainerd book got here
04:04:36 <calamari> is there a way I can verify that a debian package I have installed matches the files in the package? (for example if one was corrupted)
04:05:33 <calamari> for for the wrong channel spam :)
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00:58:56 <kipple> well, it's better than nothing :)
00:58:59 <Sgep> any comments on my .. and .. and .., oh my interpreter?
00:59:05 <kipple> been awfully quiet here lately
00:59:13 <kipple> sorry. haven't tried it
00:59:36 <kipple> haven't had the time for esoterics lately
00:59:47 <GregorR-L> Been busy getting DirectNet 1.0.0 going :)
01:00:01 * Sgep currently has negative time for using the computer...
01:00:19 <kipple> and I who was gonna release a new version of Kipple. guess I might have to up it to Kipple 06 ...
01:05:43 <ihope> Negative time? Does that produce an overflow and turn into infinite time?
01:06:00 <GregorR-L> No, time is a 32-bit signed integer.
01:06:23 <ihope> But what if you're using one of the newer versions? >:-)
01:06:48 <ihope> Then instead of the Year 2038 problem, we have the Year SomeMillions problem.
01:07:01 <kipple> I fail to see that as a problem really
01:07:09 <ihope> repeat . concat . sequence_ [putStrLn "How to keep an idiot entertained for hours: Press enter.", getLine]
01:23:06 <ihope> (mmh, xbox 360 ad)
01:29:30 <fizzie> I was going for a rewrite of GLfunge98, since it's a shamefull mess (and I cringe every time I think of it), but then this deadline for the Prolog-Scheme appeared, so haven't yet had the time. "Soonishly."
01:33:14 <fizzie> With a 64-bit signed time_t there's the Year (1970+(2^63-1)/60/60/24/365.2425) Problem, abbreviated to Y~292G.
01:58:03 <ihope> What would happen if I pasted a ⌘ in here?
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02:09:13 <fizzie> What character is that?
02:09:43 <ihope> Place of interest sign, also known as command key.
02:09:59 <fizzie> That's what it looked like, a bit.
02:10:13 <fizzie> It was a bit too tiny to be sure, though.
02:10:50 <ihope> So, a note-to-self: ⌘-H is not the "find" combination.
02:12:08 <fizzie> Oh, thanks for reminding me: I need to plug the iBook back to the charger thing, otherwise it'll shut down soon.
02:23:50 <ihope> ...Replacing the f with a fix.
02:24:08 <ihope> So what's fix fix?
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03:44:32 <kipple> nah, all you need is byte-arrays
03:44:48 <kipple> (and you only need one of those)
04:01:46 <lament> no, i need the high E for my guitar.
04:03:33 <kipple> ah. that kind of string
04:03:45 <kipple> you should always keep spares around :)
04:04:25 <lament> i'm forced to play on five strings
04:11:40 <lament> which is just really weird.
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05:56:59 <GregorR> That's me, Mr. 2L ORK Glass
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06:12:02 <GregorR> I wish Glass could garner the sort of cult following that brainfuck and befunge have :p
06:12:26 <GregorR> jix, following his pattern of being briefly interested in every esoteric programming language I make, was briefly interested in it :P
06:14:12 <calamari> I'm waiting for the Smalltalk/Java/etc to Glass compiler ;)
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11:26:13 <jix> moin calamari
11:30:48 <calamari> my sleep schedule is all screwed up :( was doing good for a while there.. now it's almost 5am .. lol
11:32:36 <calamari> okay.. well.. I should at least try to slwp.. cya all :)
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21:44:52 <calamari> wow it's been exciting in here today :P
22:27:55 <calamari> man.. qemu is just too slow to get work done
22:28:36 <calamari> I think I'm gonna have to dual boot and use 2003 native :(
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