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03:16:31 <graue> hello
03:16:42 <graue> I am thinking of rewriting the 1L specification to make it more general
03:18:17 <graue> like whatever character appears in the top left will be a 'space', and anything else will be a 'turning wall', so literal spaces won't need to be used
03:20:35 <GregorR> Hmm
03:25:55 <GregorR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:XEyeStCdNYCSmall.jpg < Can anybody else get this?
03:26:11 <GregorR> My roomate can't, I think it's easy...
03:26:54 <GregorR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_imaging#Side-by-side < the article with info on how too view it.
03:31:39 <graue> is that esolang-related?
03:32:33 <GregorR> No, but it's esoteric ;)
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03:43:50 <graue> not really
03:43:55 <graue> it's just one of those 3D imaging things
03:44:10 <GregorR> Heh
03:45:57 <graue> what does it take to get an esolang standard to be blessed by ENSI?
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03:46:12 <GregorR> Probably just asking :-P
03:46:33 <graue> whom do I ask?
03:49:13 <GregorR> lol, that's a very good question ;)
03:49:27 <GregorR> Without a very good answer I'll bet.
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04:34:56 <graue> 1L standard draft: http://www.voxelperfect.net:3875/esolang/1l_a105.html
04:35:01 <graue> comments, anyone?
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05:09:43 <graue> no comments, eh? well, I'll check the log later
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05:31:02 <GregorR> For no particular reason (actually, requested in another channel), here's a picture of me with my hair down: http://www.codu.org/hats/Hair-med.jpg
05:31:40 <Robdgreat> how ironic
05:31:44 <Robdgreat> it's in /hats
05:31:47 <Robdgreat> but there's no hat
05:31:49 <GregorR> Heheh
05:31:53 <GregorR> It's on hats.php *shrugs*
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05:40:36 <calamari> hi
05:40:46 <GregorR> 'lo
05:41:38 <GregorR> Since calamari missed the worthless link :P
05:41:45 <GregorR> For no particular reason (actually, requested in another channel), here's a picture of me with my hair down: http://www.codu.org/hats/Hair-med.jpg
05:41:49 <calamari> GregorR: I've been messing around with this packaging for hours.. I'm wondering if you'd be willing to take a look at it?  It's 2 c files each compiles into a separate program
05:42:08 <GregorR> Sure.
05:43:10 <calamari> thanks
06:58:02 <calamari> http://kidsquid.com/programs/bf/bfgolf.tar.gz
06:58:22 <calamari> okay, need to go to bed.. thanks again Gregor
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08:23:11 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/GIMPregor.jpg
08:23:14 <GregorR> I love the GIMP :P
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11:31:46 <jix> moin everyone!
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12:31:19 <Keymaker> hello
12:52:52 <Keymaker> rhhh. two forums..
12:52:55 <Keymaker> i want only one!
12:53:34 <Keymaker> esoteric forums are a good thing
12:54:08 <Keymaker> however, i wish there'd be only one of them. two is too much. either i have to post everything twice or select which one i want to use
12:55:46 <Keymaker> graue's forum has better design, but it doesn't have the possibility to register. calamari's forum is the traditional phpbb that has all the good stuff but it looks crap! (don't take this personally when you read this calamari ;))
12:56:46 <Keymaker> i hate the traditional phpbb design. if you'd install some modification/theme/skin it'd look much better
12:57:51 <Keymaker> anyways, and i like the address of graue's board more
12:58:22 <Keymaker> but, calamari's board is easier to navigate.. there are categories..
12:58:44 <Keymaker> well, i need to think which one to join, unless the boards join their forces
13:00:04 <Keymaker> or well, one can't join graue's forum, but i meant with that which one to start using more
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13:13:26 <{^Raven^}> hey peeps
13:16:13 <Keymaker> hello
13:19:15 <Keymaker> raven: how is project you showed me long time ago.. ?
13:19:21 <Keymaker> *the
13:49:08 <{^Raven^}> Keymaker: I keep forgetting to email the maintainer and ask permission
13:49:41 <Keymaker> :D
13:49:45 <Keymaker> do it sooon!
13:50:06 <Keymaker> it'll be great addition to the community forum, map, irc log list..
13:50:13 <{^Raven^}> Ravens are known for being bird-brained
13:50:18 <Keymaker> :)
13:50:23 <Keymaker> by the way, seen the esomap yet?
13:50:36 <Keymaker> frappr.com/esolang
13:50:37 <{^Raven^}> No, what/where is it?
13:51:09 <Keymaker> it's a map where esoprogrammers can place their location
13:51:39 <Keymaker> (and it's located at frappr.com/esolang, although i said that already)
13:52:55 <Keymaker> and another news is that calamari is running a brainfuck competition ;)
13:54:10 <Keymaker> and it has a physical prize as well! a spare abacus (with 9 rods) he has
13:54:21 <{^Raven^}> hehe, that's acool map
13:54:46 <{^Raven^}> I spotted calamari's forums
13:54:52 <Keymaker> ok
14:03:56 <Keymaker> hmm
14:04:05 <Keymaker> i'll go..
14:04:10 <Keymaker> bye
14:04:14 -!- Keymaker has left (?).
14:11:13 * {^Raven^} is now on the esomap :)
14:41:14 -!- Keymaker has joined.
14:43:20 <Keymaker> well, i didn't bother going to record shop, afterall..
14:43:31 <Keymaker> i'll just order the records via net..
14:43:33 <Keymaker> :)
14:48:49 <{^Raven^}> Keymaker: was adding myself to the map (on the other pc)
14:49:09 <Keymaker> ok :)
14:54:45 <{^Raven^}> there was a real post on the FoBF mailing list recently (I've never seen a real one before)
14:55:59 <Keymaker> hmmm
14:56:07 <Keymaker> must check, haven't checked for a while
14:56:09 <Keymaker> link?
14:56:45 <kipple> it was calamari about the contest
14:58:09 <Keymaker> oh
14:58:39 <Keymaker> kipple: they haven't added our beer programs nor replied me yet..
14:59:11 <kipple> they're probably busy with other things then
15:00:08 <Keymaker> yeah
15:00:27 <Keymaker> ..but what kind of computing could be more important?
15:14:54 <{^Raven^}> they're probably adding DRM to esolangs so we can't pirate commercial INTERCAL apps anymore
15:16:51 <Keymaker> haha
15:20:45 -!- graue has joined.
15:20:48 <graue> hello
15:21:31 <kipple> hi
15:22:24 <graue> seen the new 1L spec yet?
15:22:30 <kipple> no
15:22:45 <graue> http://www.voxelperfect.net:3875/esolang/1l_a105.html <-- the draft
15:22:47 <kipple> been away, and hasn't read the logs
15:23:53 <graue> I'm looking for comments, since I may have stupidly left something out
15:27:03 <kipple> looks ok to me
15:28:23 <graue> that is good
15:29:15 <Keymaker> hello..
15:29:19 <Keymaker> let's see..
15:32:59 <Keymaker> any examples?
15:34:39 <graue> just the 'A' program
15:34:53 <Keymaker> ah
15:34:58 <graue> http://esolangs.org/files/1l/src/1l_a/a.1l
15:35:20 <graue> also a tidier version at http://infestationgardens.net/files/a4.1l
15:35:37 <Keymaker> heh
15:35:59 <graue> also... hang on a sec
15:36:05 <Keymaker> ok
15:36:18 <graue> ...a graphical version at http://infestationgardens.net/files/a.1l.png
15:36:42 <Keymaker> nice (thanks to opera's zoom!)
15:37:51 <graue> the idea behind this exercise was to show that whether or not a language is "non-textual" is a matter of the implementation more than the language itself, just like no language is necessarily compiled or interpreted
15:44:07 <Keymaker> graue, nice writings :)
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15:44:25 <graue> thanks :)
15:44:59 <Keymaker> the universe faq was useful, i know now everything i need to :)
15:45:10 <graue> oh, you mean those writings, heh
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15:46:00 <Keymaker> hehe
15:46:06 <Keymaker> the site has interesting simplicity
16:04:18 <graue> speaking of simplicity
16:04:35 <graue> why do you want the esoforum to support registration?
16:04:42 <graue> it already remembers your name, doesn't it?
16:07:00 <kipple> registration is nice if it allows email notification when someone replies to your posts
16:07:35 <kipple> what I really like about the current forum is the css-feed which allows me to browse it (and even post to it) in Thunderbird
16:07:37 <Keymaker> personally i hate e-mail notification..
16:07:42 <graue> hmm... you can load the RSS feed into your RSS reader, maybe :)
16:07:46 <graue> oops, too slow
16:07:55 <Keymaker> but anyways, in forum with registeration it's easier to post
16:08:04 <graue> why's that?
16:08:09 <Keymaker> i don't know
16:08:23 <Keymaker> and one can be certain no idiot comes and starts to use your name
16:08:39 <Keymaker> although that probably doens't happen in these circles, luckily
16:08:44 <graue> hmm, the board actually does have a feature to deal with this, without registration
16:08:52 <Keymaker> really?
16:09:09 <graue> if you type "Keymaker##secretphrase" it'll add some stuff after your name which can't be produced unless someone enters the same secret phrase
16:09:35 <Keymaker> hmm
16:09:36 <graue> I'm not sure if that is working correctly, though (there seems to be a weird problem with FreeBSD's crypt() call)
16:09:51 <Keymaker> i think it makes that stuff automatically somehow
16:10:02 <Keymaker> i have never written anything after the name but it has added there some random stuff
16:10:32 <graue> well, that's the "ID: " part which is derived from your IP address, but I mean right next to your name
16:10:33 <Keymaker> no, i was wrong
16:10:35 <Keymaker> yeah
16:10:46 <Keymaker> i was just about to say that
16:11:33 <Keymaker> well, as said, both forums have good sides, but it's annoying to have two of them
16:38:35 <graue> I don't like phpBB-type registration/profiles/post counts/etc.; it makes it about people rather than ideas
16:48:51 <graue> the "post too long. click here to view the whole post" thing is annoying me; think I should lengthen the length limit before that kicks in?
16:49:05 <graue> and by the way: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/
17:05:57 <Keymaker> i don't understand :)
17:07:16 <graue> what do you not understand?
17:07:59 <Keymaker> that why languages can't be nontextual
17:09:11 <graue> it's because the format of the source code is really just a way to read symbols that comprise the program
17:09:44 <graue> if you say "in my programming language, red does X and green does Y and blue does Z", I can make a 2D textual language where $ does X and & does Y and ! does Z, and it's really the same language
17:11:17 <Keymaker> uh, yes.. but if language is defined so that the source code is a picture, it seems very non-textual to me
17:11:44 <Keymaker> if you make a piet interpreter that uses some ascii i wouldn't say it's not really a piet interpreter
17:11:55 <graue> exactly; I wouldn't either
17:12:14 <Keymaker> oops, i accidentally inserted 'not'..
17:12:23 <graue> if a language definition says "the source code is a picture", it is actually saying something about how interpreters should work, not about the language
17:12:57 <Keymaker> hmm. but the language consist of instructions. and the instructions are represented as colours in image..
17:14:11 <graue> Piet does get points for using a lightness cycle and hue cycle, so that the color representation makes more sense than a textual representation would
17:14:36 <Keymaker> well, unnecessary is non-textial, at least
17:14:47 <graue> compare Braincopter, which would make much more sense to represent textually
17:14:55 <graue> s/compare/contrast/
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17:55:27 <Keymaker> bye.
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18:37:50 <graue> moin calamari
18:45:29 <calamari> hi graue
18:45:33 <calamari> how's it going?
18:45:39 <graue> it's going all right
18:47:04 * calamari should start working on his golf entry :)
18:48:07 <calamari> oh cool.. didn't know this mode http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/subback.html existed
18:48:15 <calamari> can that be the default starting mode?
18:52:49 <GregorR> Ada!
18:52:56 <GregorR> Aha even!
18:53:07 <GregorR> It's actually a forum!
18:53:49 <graue> it can if you bookmark that page, I guess
18:54:19 <graue> want me to add a link from http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/ to it?
18:55:53 <calamari> yeah
18:57:29 <graue> done
18:57:53 <calamari> cool.. that helps a lot
19:01:32 * calamari ceases the forum mirroring
19:02:53 <calamari> btw, when I go to a long thread, it'll skip .. the forum thread skips from 1 to 12
19:03:02 <calamari> can that be disabled?
19:03:16 <calamari> entry 1 to 12, I should have said
19:04:02 -!- jix has joined.
19:04:12 <calamari> hi jix
19:08:40 <graue> calamari: hmm? it's not doing that for me
19:13:47 <calamari> graue: http://kidsquid.com/skip.png
19:15:54 <GregorR> WTF?!
19:17:34 <jix> hi...
19:19:05 <calamari> WTF?! WTF?
19:20:06 <calamari> since you like bash: http://bash.org/?6460
19:23:59 <jix> my idea for a forum:
19:24:22 <jix> you can add keywords to threads (brainfuck 2d new-language etc.) and can filter for them
19:24:30 <jix> no need for hard coded categories than
19:24:56 <jix> i like the idea of using a simple forum over a compilicated (and often buggy (?)) phpBB
19:25:12 <jix> but the current forum is a bit too simple
19:25:19 <jix> i think registered users are good
19:26:35 <calamari> one thing I wondered with the current forum.. seems easy to impersonate someone
19:27:23 <jix> yeah
19:27:25 <Robdgreat> "post by calamari: I'm a doodoo head"
19:27:37 <graue> well, 1) if I can get the crypt()-on-FreeBSD thing worked out, you would be able to securely identify yourself, 2) who's gonna bother?
19:27:41 <calamari> Robdgreat: and it'd be true most of the time hehe
19:27:46 <Robdgreat> LOL
19:27:47 <graue> but most of all, 3) it's about ideas, not people
19:27:58 <graue> you can't impersonate an idea, now can you?
19:29:36 <calamari> graue: does your forum offer a serach feature?
19:30:14 <graue> Google does (if it's started indexing the site yet)
19:31:08 <graue> anyone know an implementation of crypt() in Perl (or, is anyone willing to write one)?
19:31:13 <calamari> is it easy to modify the output?  I could code up a quick html form for the google search if you'd like
19:32:28 <graue> I need a crypt() in Perl to get some stuff working correctly... it just needs to implement the traditional DES-based algorithm with 4096 possible salts
19:33:11 <jix> is it possible to add my keyword and keyword filter idea?
19:33:39 <jix> and then add a list of the most used keywords on the top of the page
19:33:40 <calamari> graue: there is a crypt function
19:34:12 <calamari> here is part of the example from programming perl:
19:34:47 <calamari> if (crypt($word, $pwd) ne $pwd) { die "Sorry...\n"; } else { print "ok\n"; } 
19:35:21 <graue> calamari: yeah but it uses the libc crypt
19:35:27 <calamari> yeah
19:36:59 <graue> FreeBSD sucks: http://wakaba.c3.cx/sup/kareha.pl/1130723862/59-66
19:38:23 <graue> if the script could call a well-behaved crypt() then you would be able to identify yourself securely using "name##secretword", i.e., you'd have all the imposter-preventing power of registration
19:39:27 <GregorR> Good thing that's so intuitive >_>
19:49:49 <calamari> google's site search doesn't seem to be able to restrict the search any more than "esoteric.voxelperfect.net"
19:51:01 <jix> it is but the forum isn't indexed yet
19:51:49 <calamari> ahh you're right
19:51:55 <calamari>  /wiki works
19:52:03 <calamari> so /forum will too, eventually
19:54:38 * calamari goes back to working on his entry :)
19:55:02 * jix too
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19:55:28 * jix is only able to type with one hand 
19:55:50 * jix types with too hands but it hurts
19:57:12 <calamari> so when you win, you can say you did it one handed?
19:57:23 <jix> no read my last msg
19:58:37 <graue> jix: the keyword thing would be cool but require a lot of changes to the script
19:58:57 <graue> if you're willing to write Perl, go ahead and try it ;)
19:59:15 <calamari> jix: ahh.. my mistake.. the phrase is "single handed"  :)
19:59:38 <graue> "single-handedly"
19:59:40 <jix> /ME ? PERL ? NEVER! (*h*)
19:59:44 <jix> -h+g
19:59:49 <calamari> jix: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Single-Handedly&defid=1271538
19:59:52 <graue> jix: heh, that's what I thought
20:00:27 <graue> hmm, now it's time to write a Piet interpreter that reads code from text files
20:01:52 <calamari> there you go, add language extensions to the forum :P
20:02:13 <jix> a forum plugin for the wiki would be cool
20:02:21 <jix> cross referencing wiki and forum
20:02:26 <jix> same accounts for both
20:02:27 <calamari> that would be cool
20:02:41 <calamari> have it as another tab besides "Talk"
20:02:45 <jix> no
20:02:53 <jix> talk is for a wiki entry
20:03:02 <jix> a forum topic is a thing on it's own
20:03:07 <jix> -'
20:03:34 <calamari> where woulkd the entries go on the wiki then
20:04:04 <jix> forum:topic-name?
20:04:09 <jix> but not as a tab
20:04:33 <jix> and forum threads can have Category tags too
20:04:52 <calamari> would that arrange them by alphabetical order or by last edit?
20:05:04 <jix> they arn't like wiki entries
20:05:10 <jix> they are like normal forums
20:05:15 <jix> but with wiki markup and accounts
20:05:39 <jix> maybe something like that exists
20:08:48 -!- marcan has joined.
20:09:41 <calamari> jix: nope :( just asked
20:12:32 -!- Sgep has joined.
20:13:34 <graue> I think I'll represent the colors by the letters A through F
20:13:57 <graue> dark: AA, normal: Aa, light: aa
20:14:51 <graue> white: two spaces, black: ##
20:15:43 <Sgep>  #winehq
20:15:45 <Sgep> Err
20:19:15 <jix> graue: is the site hosted by textdrive?
20:19:23 <jix> (wiki)
20:19:29 <jix>     <!-- Served by pendrell.textdrive.com in 0.58 secs. -->
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20:19:46 <jix> whoops
20:21:30 <graue> jix: you answered your own question I guess?
20:21:51 <jix> yes
20:26:26 <graue> maybe I'll implement a textual Braincopter/Brainloller first, then Piet
20:28:01 <graue> Braincopter should be pretty easy
20:33:05 <graue> a 2D Thue would be fun
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21:45:53 <graue> a thought: 2D BNF
21:46:05 <graue> 2D macro languages...
22:00:59 <graue> is there a way to display the integers from 1 to n with less than O(n) storage?
22:01:19 <graue> wait, also I meant "in random order"
22:05:32 <calamari> depends on your definition of random, I suppose
22:06:03 <calamari> I'm generating random numbers in bf with around 8 memory cells
22:08:42 <GregorR> I think graue needs non-repeating.
22:08:49 <calamari> ahh
22:12:49 <calamari> for n=5 (numbers 0 to 4, just add one before output), use (n+3)%5 
22:14:17 <calamari> hmm.. I wonder if there are always two constants x and y such that (n+x)%y doesn't repeat over y iterations
22:15:15 <calamari> hmm of course.. x = 1 :)
22:15:36 <calamari> not very random tho ;)
22:16:39 <calamari> x=4 y=5 works also
22:16:52 <calamari> but that's just 4 3 2 1 0
22:17:54 * calamari checks x=5 y=9
22:19:29 <calamari> 0 5 1 6 2 7 3 8 4
22:19:55 <calamari> how about x=4
22:20:18 <calamari> 0 4 9 .. nope
22:20:27 <calamari> err
22:20:32 * calamari needs to learn basic math 
22:21:05 <calamari> 0 4 8 3 7 2 6 1 5 
22:21:26 <calamari> that seems more random
22:21:44 <calamari> but it still inst very random at all
22:21:53 <graue> no, it's really not
22:22:02 <graue> I was thinking like, equal chance of every possible permutation
22:22:10 <graue> which I guess is not possible
22:22:31 <graue> I do know how to permute an array in place with that result, though
22:23:19 <calamari> yeah
22:23:48 <graue> 2D string-rewriting language: http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1131402000/
22:24:00 <calamari> knuth algorithm, iirc :)
22:24:31 <graue> it predates Knuth; there's lots of people who are credited with "inventing" it, in fact
22:24:56 <graue> may have been made famous by one of his writings though
22:24:58 <calamari> yeah sure.. I even invented it
22:25:35 <calamari> but I think that's what it's generally known as
22:27:15 <graue> Perl programmers seem to know it as the "Fisher-Yates shuffle"
22:28:11 <graue> my original question was inspired by thinking about how to implement that 2D language
22:28:15 <graue> how's it sound to you?
22:30:42 <calamari> sounds confusing, so it's probably good :)
22:31:01 <calamari> I'd need to read up on Thue
22:32:08 <fizzie> I seem to recall that (n*x)%y goes through all [0, 1, ..., y-1] (for n in [0, 1, ..., y-1]), when x and y are coprime.
22:36:01 <graue> fizzie, cool
22:36:18 <graue> calamari: when no substitutions can be made the program terminates
22:36:44 <graue> while substitutions still can be made, one is made, at random, then this process repeats itself
22:37:17 <calamari> so it's like an ambiguous grammar
22:37:30 <graue> that's the only part that really comes from Thue at all; I didn't copy its interactive I/O for instance
23:07:28 <fizzie> Ah, now I realized where I remembered that result from: it's needed for double hashing. (Where the probe sequence for slots is (h1(k) + i*h2(k) % N) and needs to be a permutation of {0, 1, ..., N-1}.)
23:11:58 <graue> that's cool, I never thought of hashing that way before
23:13:46 <fizzie> Often the collisions are handled simply by making the slots linked-lists so they can contain >1 elements.
23:15:30 <fizzie> I happened to have the "write an 'open addressing' hash table" question on my "introduction to imperative programming" course. (Half of the class got that one, the other half wrote their hash tables with chaining.)
23:15:51 <lament> open is more fun
23:20:19 <fizzie> I wrote an open-addressing double-hashing table with table-size constrained to 2^N, and h1(str) = sum(i=1->len) p1[str[i]%32] * 31^(n-i),  h2(str) = (sum(i=1->len) p2[str[i]%32] * 31^(n-i))*2+1.  (Where p1,p2 were random permutations of {0, 1, ..., 31}.)
23:23:48 <fizzie> I think the hash function was inspired by the one the String class in Java uses. (Except that that one doesn't use those permutations I used to make h1/h2 differ.)
23:31:48 <calamari> graue: dunno if this helps http://www2.toki.or.id/book/AlgDesignManual/BOOK/BOOK4/NODE151.HTM
23:32:34 <graue> it is a broken link
23:32:50 <graue> NODE11.HTM?
23:33:30 * graue checks the #esoteric log
23:33:34 <calamari> yeah that's the url
23:33:45 <graue> oh, it's NODE151, not NODE11
23:33:53 <graue> my IRC client has a stupid wrapping bug in it
23:33:56 <calamari> ahh
23:58:07 -!- Aardwolf has joined.
23:58:12 <Aardwolf> Hey guys
23:58:36 <Aardwolf> Sorry about my post, I was a bit extreme in there, I just wanted to write some feeling down there