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03:50:31 <GregorR> YAY! My crosslibc halts now 8-D
03:50:38 <GregorR> And it supports printf 8-D
04:08:26 <int-e> you mean I'll actually get my prompt back if I try those programs?
04:22:09 <GregorR> svn co svn://idia.codu.org/crosslibc/crosslibc/trunk crosslibc
04:53:23 <GregorR> YES!!!! printf is now working on Linux, {Free,Net}BSD and Solaris :)
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08:23:53 <GregorR> Hmm, anybody have an OpenDarwin/x86 box they can test this on?
08:24:52 <GregorR> Or any other Darwin, really.
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23:07:34 <Keymaker> whose idea was to make a logo with lemons to esowiki? :)
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00:47:11 <GregorR> What's the URL for these proposed logos?
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10:50:39 <puzzlet> argh, i think i forgot my nickserv password
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16:17:45 <sp3tt> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/css-brainfuck.txt o.0 Way too much time on his hands.
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05:12:12 <wildhalcyon> its actually turned into two languages, which is fine by me
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10:06:14 <calamari-> hmm.. is it filesystem or file system?
10:12:05 <calamari-> this wiki filesystem thing is turning out to be a lot of work. Before I can even mess with the wiki stuff, I've had to do a rewrite of my file system handling.
10:12:34 <calamari-> should be a lot easier to add new file systems in the future, though :)
10:41:52 <calamari-> cool.. http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoShell:Brainfuck?action=raw
10:42:20 <calamari-> that'll make loading files easier and faster too
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17:37:22 <jix> i'm doing a new language now!
17:37:34 <jix> and i'm trying to do the most inconsistent syntax ever!
17:42:09 <jix> it's called ElWarte i forgot why...
17:42:22 <jix> El is esoteric language.. Warte was an acronyme too
17:55:32 <jix> i generate it by typing some random special characters on my keyboard OR using too descriptive keywords OR using keywords that just don't fit...
17:56:03 <jix> @@^ is a NOP
17:56:33 <jix> ABuTB executes A then B
17:57:23 <jix> @@^BuT@@^ does nothing 2 times
17:58:13 <jix> syntax error
17:58:24 <jix> expressions may not be empty
17:58:46 <jix> they may be empty in some special syntax cases
17:58:50 <jix> but not in that case ;)
18:00:11 <jix> it has 3 data types
18:00:17 <jix> array string and number
18:00:21 <jix> number is bignum or float
18:00:57 <jix> it does automatic type conversation (because that can cause stupid errors)
18:02:09 <jix> _WHom! is going to be the comparison operator
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19:19:44 <jix> i want to write a cool brainfuck program...
19:24:06 <jix> calculating pi would be a cool task
19:24:12 <jix> but it's a bit too difficult
19:25:03 <jix> MUD is a bit problematic without sockets or more than 1 IO
19:25:33 <wildhalcyon> you could get around thaat with an interpreter
19:25:50 <wildhalcyon> my language lacks graphics support, but I hope to implement a tiled game sometime
19:27:27 <jix> how to calculate pi without division...
19:27:53 <kipple> you can do division. it's just a bit hard
19:28:27 <kipple> since when did speed become important for vf progs? ;)
19:28:38 <jix> well i have to use arbitrary precision anyway...
19:28:53 <jix> kipple: since i want to get 10 digits in under 2 days
19:29:00 <wildhalcyon> Hmmm... Im trying to remember how much math was involved in the digit-extractor
19:29:14 <jix> decimal is stupid...
19:29:31 <jix> it's really cpu intensive to convert binary to decimal
19:29:44 <wildhalcyon> or trit. I have a dream of someday implementing a balanced ternary international character code
19:30:40 <jix> there is no 10^n==2^m (where n and m are natural)
19:31:15 <jix> that's why we need to use FFTs or complex recursive algorithms for fast binary=>decimal conversion
19:33:07 <wildhalcyon> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PiFormulas.html has a digit-extration algorithm
19:33:35 <jix> yes i know it but its hex
19:36:33 <wildhalcyon> arbitrary precision division in bf. That should be your first step. At least you could get the gregory workin'
19:38:44 <jix> hmm i think i'll write something easier
19:39:34 <kipple> how about a befunge interpreter? has that been done yet? ;)
19:39:52 <kipple> oh, wait. did you say easier?
19:39:54 <jix> kipple: hmm befunge 93 should be not too hard
19:40:15 <kipple> true. it has a very limited code-space
19:40:24 <jix> and limited precision
19:42:24 <jix> a mtf algorithm
19:53:01 <Aardwolf> FFT as in fast fourier transform or am I missing something?
19:55:11 <Aardwolf> does anyone know a good way to FFT non-power-of-two images by the way
19:55:33 <jix> i don't know FFT
19:55:46 <jix> do you want to compress images?
19:56:22 <Aardwolf> no, but experiment with their frequency domain
19:56:42 <Aardwolf> I wrote some C++ stuff to calculate the FFT and edit it and such
19:56:50 <Aardwolf> it's kinda fun what you can do :)
19:56:55 <jix> i don't know much about FFTs
19:57:17 <jix> i just know that they do something similar but not equal to wavelet transformations
19:57:48 <Aardwolf> I think the FT is the best known transformation, and wavelet is some much more complex modern thing :)
19:58:06 <jix> wavelet is simpler than FFT
19:58:26 <jix> it's just hard to find good informations about it
19:59:36 <jix> the easiest wavelet transformation is..(Haar wavelet a bit simplified) take 2 samples calculate the arithmetic-mean and the difference store the mean into the average signal the difference in the detail signal
19:59:43 <jix> repeat the process on the avarage signal as often as you want
20:00:47 <jix> other (better) wavelet transformations are as simple as that but you take more than 2 samples and use multiplication with some mysterious values...
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20:10:22 <Aardwolf> I didn't know the wavelet transform was this simple. I have some courses about signal processing and they're all about fourier transform, DCT, and such, and wavelet was only mentioned a few time as this "mysterious transformation used in jpeg2000 that is so mysterious"
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20:14:48 <jix> i tried to find informations about wavelet transforms
20:15:24 <jix> but everything i found was too mathematical and too much theory at the beginning instead of simple examples
20:15:40 <jix> but my brother has a book about wavelet transformations that is really great
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01:08:12 <calamari_> making progress on the esoshell thing.. decided to GNUize the options to a few utilities while I was at it
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01:45:49 <kipple> good to hear you're making progress :)
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08:16:09 * calamari just ran a program from the wiki! :)
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09:15:44 <calamari> http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell/
09:16:29 <calamari> or http://kidsquid.com/EsoShell .. guess I should set up http://esoshell.kidsquid.com
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23:00:11 <calamari> HTTP-POST in Java refuses to work for me... crazy
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23:44:41 <Aardwolf> When can you say that a programming language has only 2 symbols? I mean C++ code is also only 0's and 1's!
23:46:03 <calamari> Aardwolf: C++ can also use A-Z, a-z, punctuation, etc.. not just 0 and 1 :)
23:46:44 <grim_> but it makes more sense to interpret those 1s and 0s as higher-level code symbols
23:47:57 <grim_> you could just as well interpret C++ code as decimal, does that mean it has 9 symbols?
23:48:09 <Aardwolf> calamari, I mean, if you store C++ code on the harddisk, no matter how many A's and Z's and std::vectors it contains, it'll be 0's and 1's on the disk
23:49:10 <Aardwolf> There's for example this language (forgot which one) with 2 commands, one that spins a wheel of commands, the other to execute the selected command of the wheel. How many commands does this language have? The amount of commands on the wheel, or 2?
23:50:05 <grim_> it's called SPIN isn't it?
23:51:22 <Aardwolf> hmm no results for spin on esolang
23:52:36 <grim_> mm, whirl would be it
23:53:15 <Aardwolf> well so does it have 2 commands or is it a sort of cheating :)
23:53:31 <Aardwolf> is there actually a way defined to tell how much commands a language has :D
23:54:10 <grim_> It does have 2 commands... in a sense.
23:56:12 <grim_> but I don't suppose there is a way of determining how many "true commands" a language has, which seems to be what you're driving at
23:56:44 <calamari> Aardwolf: spinning commands like that is cheating, imo
23:56:51 <wildhalcyon> C++ has to have more than 2 commands, because the 0's and 1's are not interpreted independently, same with Whirl, imo.
23:57:13 <Aardwolf> Yeah that's probably the best way to look at it
23:57:18 <calamari> Aardwolf: cpu's don't "spin".. opcodes always do the same thing, given the same data (or if no data), afaik
23:57:30 <grim_> the fact that modern computing devices store C++ program as a series of 1s and 0s on a magnetic storage medium is a red herring ;)
23:57:55 <Aardwolf> Someone should make a real ternary computer :)
23:58:22 <calamari> Aardwolf: I've gotten down to 4 symbols without spinning
23:58:23 <wildhalcyon> Im working on a character code for one, and a not-so-eso programming language too
23:58:34 <grim_> spinning is a bit novel, but I thought OISCs ran on a similar principle
23:58:44 <calamari> Aardwolf: it should be possible to get three
23:58:54 <grim_> basically a look-up table of the real instructions
23:59:28 <calamari> grim_: nope.. oisc is one instruction, always the same
23:59:37 <Aardwolf> calamari, you mean the BF_instruction_minimalization? :)
23:59:42 * grim_ assumed I was wrong
00:00:02 <calamari> Aardwolf: I think it can be reduced to 3.. but I dunno how :)
00:00:06 <Aardwolf> Hey add the 4 symbol solution in there, I don't see it in there :)
00:00:17 <calamari> well, afk.. got http post working, finally! now to implement that in python
00:00:34 <calamari> aardwolf: it's there, but somewhat obscured by .,
00:00:41 <kipple> interesting discussion here :)
00:00:57 <calamari> Aardwolf: you don't need i/o, so }<[] is 4
00:01:03 <Aardwolf> Well would be cool if someone found a revolutionary 3 symbol solution :)
00:01:43 <Aardwolf> without io it becomes even less practical though ;)
00:02:04 <calamari> not any less so than lambda calculus :)
00:02:27 <kipple> a problem with couting commands is that some languages have commands without arguments and some have one or more args per command
00:02:28 <wildhalcyon> Not necessarily Aardwolf, really I/O doesn't belong on a turing tape
00:02:49 <kipple> it's easy to have few commands if you can use args
00:05:16 <Aardwolf> Sorry for being off topic but I once read about code that would generate the same compiler (error) output as the code itself, sort of like a quine but with compiler errors instead. I can't find it again with google though. Anyone remember something about this?
00:05:48 <wildhalcyon> I remember that, I think it was a version of C or C++
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00:18:58 <calamari> Aardwolf: yeah I remember that.. it was like a 99bob or hello world type page with listings for various languages
00:19:52 <calamari> maybe search for "Bad command or file name" , or various shell errors :)
00:21:07 <calamari> got wiki writing working, now need to do it all again in python .. :/
00:21:36 <kipple> what? have you switched to python?
00:22:13 <calamari> nope.. have to work around Java's security mechanisms
00:22:40 <kipple> does that mean the applet can't be hosted within the wiki?
00:22:43 <calamari> first it POST's to my server, then it will repost that to the wiki
00:23:04 <calamari> it can, that'll be great when it is
00:23:10 <Aardwolf> Would it be good to post an example of a quine on the esolang quine page, or can brainfuck quine code be copyrighted
00:23:39 <calamari> Aardwolf: do you know who did?
00:24:06 <Aardwolf> Well, there are names of people mentioned :) http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/self_brainf.txt
00:24:15 <Aardwolf> maybe you know one of them? :)
00:24:39 <kipple> Keymaker has a bf-quine here: http://bf-hacks.org/programs.html
00:24:49 <kipple> I'm sure he'll agree to post it on the wiki
00:25:27 <Aardwolf> Well hopefully he reads the logs :)
00:25:54 <calamari> I know Brian Raiter: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/
00:26:17 <calamari> I've mailed him before.. cool guy
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03:56:26 <calamari> yay, mediawiki has some kind of anti-bot checking built in..
03:56:38 <calamari> http post.. its the lamest thing ever
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06:33:55 <calamari_> ahh, now it only creates one change entry per new file
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07:13:16 <calamari> well, it works.. now all we need are more languages interpreters :)
07:46:35 <calamari> added Unnecessary language interpreter
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10:28:14 <graue> the quinelike things that print themselves as error messages are called kimian quines
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10:30:33 <kipple> calamari: I see you've put up the api for esoshell :)
10:30:36 <graue> hey cal, all your esoshell stuff is sort of drowning out the normal editing of the wiki
10:30:52 <calamari_> graue: yeah I wanted to ask you about that
10:30:57 <graue> I think we need a "hide esoshell namespace edits" patch for the recent changes page
10:31:12 <kipple> Is that because the Esoshell namespace is not properly configured?
10:31:24 <calamari_> kipple: yeah afaik there isn't an EsoShell nasespace yet
10:31:25 <graue> no, it's because mediawiki doesn't have a feature like that
10:31:30 <kipple> I thought the recent changes only listed changes in the normal namespace
10:31:55 <calamari_> kipple: graue has been waiting on me to stop being lazy and get the wiki i/o done ;)
10:32:15 <graue> kipple: no, it shows them all
10:33:15 <calamari_> graue: is it difficult to add that namespace?
10:33:17 <kipple> I see that edits by bots are not shown per default. Is it possible to flag the edits made by the shell as 'bot'?
10:34:07 <graue> possibly, if they're proxied by calamari_'s server
10:34:24 <graue> I think the proxy would have to log in when it made an edit, and I'd somehow label the account it used as 'bot'
10:34:26 <calamari_> they are.. had to overcome Java's security measures
10:35:06 <graue> I have no idea about namespaces, but is there any problem with the current setup, other than the talk pages not being "EsoShell talk"?
10:36:20 <kipple> looked up the mediawiki documentation, and bot is just a user setting like sysop
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10:36:37 <calamari_> graue: no, I thought you were wanting the namespace.. if you don't then it doesn't matter
10:36:57 <graue> I agree it would be nicer
10:37:03 <kipple> so I guess there should be a separate EsoShell bot-user
10:37:14 <calamari_> graue: I'm wondering about a category for EsoShell though, like you could mark bf as being in EsoShell
10:37:31 <calamari_> not that iomortant right now since only 2 languages are implemented, just something to think about
10:37:33 <graue> [[Category:Supported by EsoShell]]?
10:37:48 <kipple> or just [[Category:EsoShell]]
10:39:02 <graue> by the way, calamari_, you could have the proxy mention the user's IP address in its edit summary, as a rough way of tracking who made what edit
10:39:55 <kipple> to create a custom namespace you must edit the LocalSettings.php : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Custom_namespaces
10:40:16 <calamari_> graue: hmm, good idea.. I'll lok into that
10:42:00 <calamari_> graue: it may be possible to have the app log in as the user, but there are all sorts of security problems there that I'd rather avoid
10:42:17 <kipple> and then you can't flag the edits as 'bot'
10:49:21 <kipple> there are now a couple of articles about specific implementations in the wiki (awib and BFBasic). I think we should have a category for them.
10:50:35 <kipple> or perhaps there should be a [[category:Brainfuck]] to put all bf-related stuff in.
10:51:08 <kipple> oops. are you messing with the namespaces, graue? ;)
10:51:34 <kipple> something is definately wrong right now...
10:52:36 <graue> [[category:implementations]] sounds good, and yeah I just was
10:53:05 <kipple> well, you've messed up something. look at http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Iota_and_Jot
10:53:14 <kipple> I see comments from the php file...
10:53:38 <graue> looks fine to me :)
10:54:12 * kipple reloads and gets a bit embarrassed
10:54:21 <graue> by the way, calamari_, it seems you have to recreate the EsoShell pages now
10:54:36 <calamari_> graue: that's fine.. they were temporary
10:55:21 <graue> actually, I should probably comment out the new namespaces, then go back and delete those pages, then add the namespaces again
10:55:25 <graue> it seems to be a bit messed up
10:58:16 <graue> I moved them to User:Graue/Old Esoshell/[Brainfuck|Temp|Befunge]
10:58:33 <kipple> anybody else think we should have a category for bf-related stuff? currently we have the articles Brainfuck algorithms,BFBASIC, Brainfuck constants, Awib and BF instruction minimalization which would qualify for this cat.
10:59:35 <graue> kipple: sure, I guess so
11:00:42 <kipple> we're starting to get a lot of categories, but I think that's a good thing
11:03:51 <kipple> anybody know how to link to a category page?
11:04:01 <graue> [[:Category:Whatever]]
11:05:56 <graue> I don't think the brainfuck article should link to [[Category:Brainfuck]], since it's in that category, so there's already a link to it
11:06:13 <graue> and [[Category:Brainfuck derivatives]] can easily be found within the Brainfuck category
11:06:26 <kipple> I don't see why not. the category links are hidden down at the bottom and not very visible
11:08:21 <graue> that's only because of the improper choice of theme and/or useragent
11:10:02 <calamari_> apparently it thinks my host/ip/etc are the same as the server the applet is running on
11:12:21 <graue> kipple: you essentially have a complaint against where the categories are displayed in the monobook theme
11:12:35 <graue> still, it makes more semantic sense to find a category from the link at the bottom than from a "see also"
11:12:38 <kipple> ah, I see. are they more visible in the default theme?
11:14:10 <kipple> I still think it is nice to have it listed in See Also.
11:14:23 <kipple> there you can put a brief description next ot the link as well
11:15:01 <graue> what's to describe? it's the Brainfuck category!
11:15:33 <kipple> added some descriptions :)
11:16:13 <kipple> I'm just thinking about occasional visitors which might not be familiar with mediawiki and the category concept
11:17:01 <kipple> dang, you're fast to correct errors ;)
11:18:42 <graue> we should have a help page or something for people to get familiar with the category concept
11:19:03 <graue> however, how many esolang enthusiasts are really not going to have used wikipedia?
11:19:15 <kipple> you're probably right.
11:19:51 <kipple> though I like to think that sometimes people who are not (yet) enthusiasts comes by :)
11:20:07 <graue> yay, esoshell is now running at 127.0.0.1
11:20:28 <kipple> what? that's my IP! get out of my computer!!!!
11:21:17 <calamari_> graue: trying to get you your ip's.. not having great luck with it tho :)
11:22:10 <kipple> can't the python script simply get it from the request? or are you doing it in the applet?
11:27:29 <kipple> calamari: what's the point of this page: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/??
11:28:02 <kipple> hmm. does that link work at all? contains two korean chars
11:28:24 <graue> it's "main page" in Korean
11:28:34 <graue> and was an attempt to wedge two wikis into the same place
11:29:24 <graue> I wonder if following wikipedia's example and having kr.esoteric.voxelperfect.net wouldn't be a better idea
11:29:37 <graue> but it would probably be a pain to set up
11:30:00 <kipple> but is there really a need for it? doesn't seem like any of the koreans have even bothered to edit this main page
11:31:10 <graue> it was just a test; they weren't expected to
11:37:03 <graue> stuff compiled with awib won't seem to run under OpenBSD's linux compatibility layer
11:37:33 <graue> I get "Operation not permitted" and then if I use "elf2olf -o linux awib" I get "Cannot allocate memory"
11:39:27 <kipple> maybe you should port it to BSD then ;)
11:39:30 <calamari_> kipple: good idea with python.. got it :)
11:42:00 <kipple> getting it to log in as a user next?
11:42:42 <calamari_> not tonight.. it'll be a major pain
11:43:16 <calamari_> http post is horrible..even if one little thing is off it won't send the data
11:43:45 <kipple> OT: does anyone know of a nice graph generating script for PHP?
11:44:29 <kipple> like: I give it a set of dates and related numbers, and it plots a nice chart for me
11:47:12 <graue> it doesn't check for EOF
11:47:23 <kipple> I've tried searching a bit but I get so extremely many results, and no idea which are good
11:47:41 <graue> so when EOF occurs, the program just gets some random wrapped value based on whatever EOF is implemented as
11:47:41 <calamari_> kipple: no I mean the channel #web
11:47:59 <kipple> ah. perhaps I'll try that. thanks
11:49:27 <kipple> what time is it where you are?
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11:51:23 <kipple> fun fact: the Malbolge article is the 4th most popular article on the wiki (behind Main Page, Language List, and brainfuck)
11:56:44 <graue> more people should read about 1L
11:59:41 <kipple> even more OT: today's Irregular Web Comic is hilarious: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cgi-bin/comic.pl?comic=954
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12:04:10 <Aardwolf> What is EsoShell? Is it a sort of tool that will be on the wiki?
12:04:38 <kipple> http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell/
12:04:53 <kipple> a java-applet unix-like console with esolang implementations
12:07:15 <Aardwolf> oh I see. Will it come on the wiki? It looks to me like there's a lot of testing going on
12:07:29 <kipple> it will hopefully be included in the wiki
12:07:36 <kipple> it uses the wiki as it's file system
12:21:07 <graue> EsoShell needs some 1L support if it's gonna really take off
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16:36:20 <Keymaker> finally had time to optimize the current quine work
16:36:52 <Keymaker> got it to 1214, which is almost 300 bytes larger than my current record
16:37:14 <Keymaker> probably i should do some other bf stuff for a chance, like i months ago thought
16:37:45 <Keymaker> well, been very busy.. that'll ease in a month though..
16:54:48 <Aardwolf> Keymaker, will you post a few quines on the wiki as examples?
16:59:28 <Keymaker> well, other people have done a lot shorter than mine..
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22:28:17 <GregorR> (He responds, 20 minutes later)
22:35:45 <calamari> it was suggested that 1L be implemented in EsoShell
22:36:06 <calamari> I was looking at the 1L page, but there are two variants.. which is the active branch?
22:49:54 <calamari> hmm.. the bf interpreter seems to be broken..
22:55:40 <calamari> maybe its this Java.. everything seems to be melting down and it was fine at home
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23:01:09 <calamari> aha, 1.5 code seems to have slipped in again
23:06:22 <GregorR> 1L_a I think he called it.
23:07:25 <GregorR> I didn't reapear btw, I reappeared :-P
23:08:41 <calamari> oh.. I didn't even see your first line.. lol
23:09:37 <calamari> it bothers me that those Java exceptions weren't being thrown to the EsoShell console.. I thought I'd set it up so they would be
23:10:58 <GregorR> That wasn't proper IRC emoting :P
23:11:35 <calamari> I've been on irc since 1993.. it's been in use at least that long ;)
23:14:03 <calamari> back then I used undernet, because it was the only one I could connect to via gopher
23:39:16 <graue> has anyone made a 2D language with a preprocessor?
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23:51:40 <calamari> graue: it shouldn't be overly difficult to port 1L to EsoShell. I've put the API and source files on http://esoshell.kidsquid.com/ You can run Application.class directly to make it easier to debug things
23:52:51 <calamari> I'd do it, but I'm wondering about my documentation, etc.. is it good enough? If it isn't, then I'd like to know so I can improve it
23:53:42 <graue> well, I can't actually run EsoShell so far as I know
23:55:16 <graue> does it work with gcj 3.4 and/or kaffe 1.0.6?
23:55:34 <graue> I could try, I guess
23:56:01 <calamari> I'm not sure, but if it doesn't let me know so I can fix it
23:58:29 <calamari> whew.. lots of errors in gcj 3.3.3, but maybe I just don't know what I'm doing with it
00:04:10 <calamari> /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i386-redhat-linux/3.3.3/../../../crt1.o(.text+0x18): In function `_start':
00:04:10 <calamari> : undefined reference to `main'
00:04:10 <calamari> /tmp/ccACjpyI.o(.text+0x4e): In function `Application::main(JArray<java::lang::String*>*)':
00:04:10 <calamari> : undefined reference to `EsoShellAPI::EsoShell::class$'
00:04:10 <calamari> /tmp/ccACjpyI.o(.text+0x61): In function `Application::main(JArray<java::lang::String*>*)':
00:04:10 <calamari> : undefined reference to `EsoShellAPI::EsoShell::EsoShell[in-charge]()'
00:04:12 <calamari> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
00:05:55 <graue> I think you need to specify which class has "main" in it, somehow, otherwise gcj doesn't know which main to use
00:08:15 <calamari> thanks, that eliminated the first error, but the 2nd two remain
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00:10:49 <graue> the OpenBSD package for gcj doesn't seem to work, it wants a "libgcj.spec" file that doesn't exist
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02:17:26 <calamari> I guess there's a gcj-4.0 out now.. downloading that :)
02:20:49 <calamari> graue: hmm weird, I have that same spec error here (3.4)
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11:41:51 <Aardwolf> Someone seen this? http://jonripley.com/i-fiction/games/LostKingdomBF.html
11:43:33 <Aardwolf> The cool thing is that it actually works
11:44:07 <Aardwolf> You are in an unkempt yard overlooking a stagnant pond.
11:44:18 <grim_> nice to see some risc os developers too ;)
11:47:55 <Aardwolf> I'm gonna convert Lost Kingdom to brainloller :D
12:30:50 <Aardwolf> Haha, Lost Kingdom in Brainloller is working, but my interpreter is so slow that you have to wait every time until the texts appear and it responds to your input
12:36:02 <Aardwolf> http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/brainloller/lk.png
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13:52:22 <Aardwolf> How to post a zoomed in version of an image on the wiki?
13:52:34 <Aardwolf> (I mean, a resized version of the image)
13:52:34 <jix> zoomed in?
13:52:53 <jix> you just post the image and the wiki creates small preview images for you (afaik)
13:53:37 <Aardwolf> I mean, here: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainloller is a very small hello world source code image. I'd like to post an enlarged version of it as well (like the width / height tags do in html)
13:56:59 <jix> [[Image:Wikipedesketch1.png|100px]]
13:58:30 <jix> doesn't work...
13:58:38 <jix> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Picture_tutorial
13:59:27 <jix> i'd upload a scaled version because some brothers uses interpolation for scaling images
13:59:35 <jix> (safari is one of them)
14:04:35 <kipple_> Aardwolf: are you the designer of Brainloller?
14:05:31 <kipple_> I'm doing some small edits to the article, and was wondering when this language was created (I'm guessing this year)
14:06:05 <kipple_> I like to have the year of creation on each language article
14:07:10 <Aardwolf> It was created this year in august
14:07:35 <Aardwolf> did you see this neat brainloller code already? http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/brainloller/lk.png :)
14:08:22 <kipple_> was about to ask if it was Lost Kingdom or something, then I saw the text at the bottom :D
14:09:00 <jix> heh maybe i'll write a optimizing bf2bl converter
14:09:06 <jix> that tries to save space
14:09:38 <kipple_> have you uploaded that one to the wiki?
14:10:05 <Aardwolf> no, Lost Kingdom is copyrighted by Jon Kipley
14:10:17 <Aardwolf> I mailed him to ask if I can keep it on my site though
14:10:52 <Aardwolf> By the was I should try to make the brainloller optimizer a lot faster
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14:13:13 <jix> Aardwolf: there is a bug in the interpereter ( i think so)
14:13:24 <jix> you check bounds at + and - but not at < and >
14:14:09 <jix> moin {^Raven^}
14:14:59 <Aardwolf> jix, I'll study it, maybe I'll completely rewrite it to make it much faster, inspired by other bf interpreters
14:15:27 <jix> i'm modifying it to dump the brainfuck commands
14:15:53 <jix> then i'm going to use it with bf2a (my bf2c compiler (very fast executables))
14:17:07 <Aardwolf> for a bf2bl converter, check the file in the bftobmp folder
14:17:29 <jix> Aardwolf: the output doesn't look optimzied
14:17:33 <Aardwolf> oh I just reuploaded the file because there was a bug
14:18:00 <Aardwolf> jix, what do you mean? there are as much pixels as brainfuck commands, except two colums of rotate commands on both sides, how can it be optimized?
14:18:12 <jix> Aardwolf: reusing space
14:18:28 <Aardwolf> yeah that is indeed possible, but it looks like a really hard problem to me
14:18:36 <jix> i have some ideas
14:18:38 <Aardwolf> you want to do things like wire crossing to reuse pixels?
14:19:15 <Aardwolf> I had that in mind when I designed it, and secretly hoped someone would actually try using that :)
14:22:20 <jix> hm there is a problem with dumping
14:22:24 <jix> if there is an infinity loop
14:23:32 <Aardwolf> By the way, should I remove the memory size constraint (of 30000 bytes), and would it be better wrapping or non-wrapping?
14:23:44 <jix> reallocating
14:24:11 <jix> i don't know c++ but i think yes
14:24:34 <Aardwolf> Then the contraint would be removed from the brainloller specification and it would be turing complete
14:25:23 <{^Raven^}> hehe, I'm gonna play with brainloller
14:26:03 <Aardwolf> I'm gonna make a new interpreter :)
14:26:11 <jix> i need 128 times the same instruction for doing some optimisations...
14:26:39 <Aardwolf> In the Lost Kingdom code are huge series of red pixels (>'s), maybe you can do something there
14:29:14 <{^Raven^}> run-length encoding of the loaded program will speed up execution dramatically
14:29:27 <jix> Aardwolf: if you want a good bf2high-level optimizer you can try http://esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/impl/bf2a-0.2.rb
14:29:50 <jix> but you have to catch infinity loops if you do optimizations
14:30:18 <Aardwolf> Ok. I think I'm going to learn a lot by trying this.
14:31:03 <Aardwolf> By the way I'm also writing a Deltaplex interpreter. It's extremely hard and complex, I got most of the 3D and audio engine working though.
14:32:35 <jix> are there beta specs/interpreter?
14:33:18 <Aardwolf> There are beta specs, but not online yet
14:33:34 <Aardwolf> the interpreter isn't really an interpreter yet, only the code to support it
14:33:52 <Aardwolf> I'll improve the beta specs and put them online
14:35:45 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: take a look at Erik Bosman's interpreter that comes with lost kingdom, maybe you can steal (convert to C++) the optimisation code
14:36:43 <Aardwolf> {^Raven^}, I was planning to do so, as that interpreter runs LK very fast :)
14:37:39 <Aardwolf> I'll start by reading the code from the png image and storing it in a 1D array (following the IP rotate commands), and then use that 1D command for the rest of the BF interpretion
14:37:57 <jix> Aardwolf: uhoh.. infinity loops
14:38:16 <jix> you have to add 2 instructions
14:38:21 <jix> { and } for start and stop infinity loop
14:38:38 <jix> and have to track all ip-positions/directions
14:38:51 <Aardwolf> that's easy, done that for gammaplex already :)
14:39:02 <jix> or better make a new buffer with the size of the image
14:39:21 <jix> that makes the "was i here before?" check faster
14:39:54 <Aardwolf> I also thought about storing the positions of corresponding [ and ]'s to jump to them faster
14:40:07 <Aardwolf> it would have to be stored 4 times, once for each direction
14:40:49 <jix> no use one buffer and use 0b0001 for direction 1 0b010 for 2......
14:42:25 <jix> gcc is too slow...
14:43:19 <jix> and makes to much use of recursion
14:43:23 <jix> Out of stack space.
14:43:23 <jix> Try running 'ulimit -S -s unlimited' in the shell to raise its limit.
14:43:55 <jix> and the code i'm compiling has only 1 function
14:44:23 <Aardwolf> wow I never had problems with g++ heh
14:44:42 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: I can't get brainloller to compiler :(
14:45:17 <Aardwolf> Try with g++ *.cpp, it works for me
14:45:32 <Aardwolf> it has no library dependencies at all!
14:45:44 <jix> i'm not talking about BL
14:45:57 <jix> i'm talking about LostKng.c
14:46:05 <jix> autoconverted from LostKng.c
14:46:40 <{^Raven^}> jix: you realise how long gcc will take to compile it ;)
14:47:06 <Aardwolf> So I guess there must be created some very demanding C code? :D
14:47:28 <jix> hmm it has less nested loops than straight bf2c
14:49:01 <Aardwolf> Hey how about this as a .b to .c compiler: the generated .c code is the source code of a .b interpreter and at the start of a code a char buffer being defined with in {, , , ... } symbols the whole .b code. Then the interpreter uses this char buffer (instead of a loaded file).
14:49:43 <{^Raven^}> that only offers the same speed as the bundled interpreter
14:49:59 <jix> this is called pseudo-compiler (used for befunge compiling)
14:50:47 <jix> ruby has no problem with the loop level in LostKng.b
14:50:59 <jix> and i make heavy use of recursion
14:54:59 <Aardwolf> {^Raven^}, did you manage to compile brainloller already? If not, what are you compiling it with?
14:56:47 <jix> hmm what is the correct c label syntax?
14:57:37 <Aardwolf> ask in #c, but afaik it's goto blah; and the label is blah:
14:57:46 <jix> hmm i'm using that
14:59:37 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: it turns out that both .cpp files were corrupted on download, it compiles now but segfaults
15:00:23 <Aardwolf> try redownloading them, I recently reuploaded them
15:02:31 <Aardwolf> if you're on linux you can also try downloading a.out and running that
15:08:11 <Aardwolf> I'll reupload the files again, maybe I forgot changing one and they aren't compatible? Because the version on my HD is most certainly working witout segfaults and can run both hello.png and lk.png
15:15:39 <kipple_> I just downloaded it and it worked fine (debian)
15:17:40 <kipple_> though lost kingdoms doens't seem to work properly
15:19:26 <kipple_> perhaps it only works on linux...
15:19:32 <{^Raven^}> jix: goto is the spawn of the devil
15:20:04 <{^Raven^}> kipple_: segfaults on WHEL3 and Windows
15:20:09 <jix> {^Raven^}: yes
15:20:15 <jix> but i have to use it
15:20:27 <jix> because gcc is too crappy to handle a few hundred nested loops
15:20:32 <{^Raven^}> jix: ahh, someone has a gun to your head?
15:20:35 <jix> and it's auto-generated code anyway
15:21:04 <lindi-> jix: how does gcc fail to handle that?
15:21:04 <jix> it looks awful and unreadable without gotos too
15:21:18 <jix> lindi-: catched stack overflow
15:21:32 <jix> aRGH still out of stack space...!!!
15:21:56 <lindi-> jix: ah, when you try to run or compile it?
15:22:00 <Aardwolf> Deltaplex spec and early screenshot are here: http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/deltaplex/
15:22:11 <jix> lindi-: yes
15:25:04 <kipple_> aardwolf: looks interesting. though I'm not sure if I'll take the time to read it all ;)
15:29:09 <jix> lindi-: the output of bf2a.rb LostKng.b
15:30:50 <jix> Aardwolf: has gammaplex support for pixel shaders?
15:31:39 <jix> yes delta...
15:31:46 <jix> hmm i like pixel shaders...
15:31:55 <jix> i wrote a julia fractal renderer using pixel shaders
15:32:03 <jix> but i can't use looping
15:32:14 <jix> so the program is too big for my graphic card with 30 iterations
15:32:57 <jix> my card is ok
15:33:11 <jix> ati radeon 9800 pro with 128mb vram
15:33:29 <jix> Aardwolf: has deltaplex support for AA?
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15:36:33 <Aardwolf> jix, do you mean full screen anti aliasing?
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15:37:00 <Aardwolf> jix, do you mean full screen anti aliasing?
15:37:23 <Aardwolf> isn't that an option you can turn on in the settings of your video card drivers?
15:37:26 <jix> i could enable it by setting an opengl overwrite on deltaplex
15:37:34 <jix> but native support would be cool too
15:37:37 <Aardwolf> if so, it could screw up the readability of fonts though
15:38:01 <jix> not full screen anti aliasing
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15:38:15 <jix> that's something inexistent afaik
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15:38:22 <jix> because font aa is taks of the font system
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15:38:39 <jix> different from the things SDLgfx aa functions
15:38:46 <jix> so it's part of software for most things
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15:38:59 <jix> but 3d graphics are hardware...
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15:39:17 <jix> and you can draw triangles with a smooth AA border
15:39:34 <Aardwolf> actually there aren't even plans for lighting at the moment :)
15:39:34 <jix> and they look nicer than those without AA
15:39:44 <jix> and thats something you can toggle using OGL
15:40:21 <Aardwolf> if it's a simple OGL command I could consider it, I'm avoiding extensions at the moment though
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15:41:24 <jix> i think it's an extension...
15:42:28 <Aardwolf> one thing I fear is that the interpreter will be too slow to actually allow making something cool
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15:50:39 <jix> Aardwolf: deltaplex's constants list is missing a very useless value
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15:51:39 <jix> hmm the jix-useless-constant *g*
15:52:44 <jix> the solution real solution for x for x*|x|^(1/4)+Cos(x^2)-sqrt(5+Sin(9+x))=0
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15:54:46 <jix> it's ~ 2.056964219114166926775407552183364454808154333338709547536597358325935202358797284252482781728389933848895663035350228179996536714334290
15:55:57 <jix> i can't imagine a problem that needs this value
15:57:17 <jix> and Mathematica's solve wasn't able to solve the equation ^^
15:57:36 <jix> no i don't have maple
15:58:13 <jix> it said there is no algebraic way to solve it
15:58:37 <jix> there is no algebraic way to solve all equations of 5th order or higher.. so it's nothing special
15:58:56 <Aardwolf> gmail is suddenly bugged, I can't send emails anymore with it :s
15:58:58 <wildhalcyon> Some +5th order equations are algebraically solvable
15:59:17 <jix> wildhalcyon: i said there is no way to solve ALL of them some are solvable but not all
15:59:30 <jix> add a '.' anywhere in my last msg
15:59:51 <jix> i used Newton's Method to near the result
16:00:23 <wildhalcyon> That'll work, how long did it take to get your answer so.. erm.. extremely close?
16:00:51 <jix> i don't know i did every step by hand
16:01:08 <jix> but i don't see mathematica calculating the steps
16:01:14 <wildhalcyon> Aardwolf, what about adding Polya's random walk constants?
16:02:03 <Aardwolf> What could they be used for? :D
16:02:36 <Aardwolf> The physical constants are truly useful if you want to make a space shooter in deltaplex :)
16:03:05 <wildhalcyon> Umm.. well, I guess they're not TERRIBLY useful, but polya's constant for n=1 is 1, so that could be a quick way to get "1"
16:10:40 <wildhalcyon> well. the higher ones aren't very practical for many purposes
16:11:10 <jix> i have a new cool constant!
16:11:19 <jix> srand('deltaplex'.sum);puts "0."+(0..100).map{|e|rand(10)}.join
16:11:26 <jix> replace 100 with a higher value for more digits
16:11:39 <jix> oh it's ruby code
16:17:41 <jix> brainfuck beats them all! http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=brainfuck&word2=c+lisp+scheme+perl+php+python+ruby+bash
16:19:29 <jix> <GregorR> Also, anyone who uses the term "pwnd" in my MUD engine will find their character mysteriously dead.
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17:28:56 <jix> hah 175 bytes code!
17:29:03 <jix> my shortest brainfuck interpreter
17:30:41 <jix> argh eof handling...
17:30:48 <jix> should i use 0 or -1?
17:40:37 <jix> 177 bytes code
17:41:15 <Aardwolf> 177 bytes code in what language?
17:41:31 <jix> 178 for EOF == -1
17:42:06 <jix> $>.sync=m="\0";j=0;eval$<.read.tr(x='^[]+><,.-',"").gsub(/./){%w{while\ m[\
17:42:06 <jix> j]>0 end m[j]+=1 (j+=1)>=m.size&&m<<0 j-=1 m[j]=STDIN.getc||0 putc\ m[j]
17:42:06 <jix> m[j]-=1}[x.index($&)-1]+";"}#esoteric@irc.freenode.net Jannis Harder 2005#
17:43:16 <jix> it's a bit faster than obi.rb
17:44:28 <mtve> jix: http://www.kernelpanic.pl/perlgolf-view.mx?id=34
17:44:44 <jix> eek perl...
17:46:03 <mtve> and http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=132368
17:47:31 <jix> but that's perl
17:47:47 <jix> perl is more cryptic than ruby
17:47:54 <jix> normal ruby is clean and readable
17:49:04 <jix> and there are more perl than ruby golfers!
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19:33:33 <kipple_> I've made a graph of the size of the wiki based on the database dumps: http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/wikisize.php
19:34:29 <kipple_> it has actually become smaller lately...
19:37:44 <jix> i need a shorter esolang interpreter
19:37:50 <jix> 177 bytes is too large
19:38:19 <Aardwolf> what's the shortest one every written?
19:39:01 <jix> Aardwolf: for brainfuck there are shorter ones than mine
19:39:21 <kipple_> there are some very short C bf interpreters
19:39:25 <jix> i'm talking about a "suitable for computation" language
19:39:30 <jix> kipple_: shorter than 177 bytes?
19:39:38 <jix> there are shorter perl interpreters for it
19:40:12 <kipple_> perhaps not. haven't counted the bytes
19:40:37 <kipple_> a higher level language like perl should be able to do it shorter than C
19:40:52 <jix> there is a ~90 byte perl version
19:41:32 <jix> but i think a ruby version that is shorter than 177 bytes (i can do it in 176 bytes if i wouldn't limit source lines to 75chars)
19:41:40 <jix> is very very hard
19:42:57 <kipple_> why limit source line length?
19:43:12 <jix> because i like to use small ruby programs as my sig
19:43:28 <kipple_> do you have a link to the perl version?
19:43:37 <jix> 18:34:34<mtve>and http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=132368
19:43:55 <jix> its 88 bytes
19:43:57 <jix> $_.=qw(++ }while$ -- ++$ $$p=shift; --$ print$ ${)[$p%60%8].'$p+0;'while$p=ord getc;eval
19:44:35 <jix> i try to write the shortest befunge 93 interpreter possible (in ruby)
19:47:52 <Aardwolf> how can that be a bf interpreter :o
19:48:12 <kipple_> I just tried it. doesn't seem to work
19:50:26 <kipple_> on helloworld.b it outputs 72101108108111-18703-3-110
19:50:42 <jix> maybe it needs an older / newer perl version
19:50:52 <jix> but my interpreter works
19:51:40 <kipple_> at first it looks like just the ASCII values for hello world, but then something happens...
19:52:33 <jix> that's the problem with perl.. as soon as your program that worked for ages stops working you're lost and have to rewrite it because you can't read the source code... that wouldn't happen with BF
19:52:42 <jix> because BF doesn't change
19:53:01 <Aardwolf> C and C++ programs will work forever too
19:53:09 <kipple_> except for EOF, cell size and wrapping
19:53:41 <Aardwolf> The std:: thing wasn't there at the beginnings of C++
19:53:52 <jix> kipple_: yes but that are things you think about when you write your program...
19:54:02 <jix> you don't think about operator precedence if you write a perl program
19:54:24 <kipple_> but how do you write a bf-program that takes into account all variations of EOF?
19:54:35 <kipple_> jix: I don't write perl programs ;)
19:54:41 <Aardwolf> hey, what is the EOF issue about? End Of File? Does it mean end of program here?
19:54:51 <jix> Aardwolf: end of stdin
19:55:01 <jix> kipple_: i stopped writing perl programs a long time ago
19:55:27 <Aardwolf> hmm, what is the end of stdin things you type in a linux console?
19:56:02 <jix> Aardwolf: that's something special not an ascii value..
19:56:31 <jix> in c you have feof for checking for eof... because getc's return value isn't usable if you work with binary data
19:56:51 <jix> in BF you don't have feof.. and you have to use one of the characters as EOF marker
19:56:52 <Aardwolf> I've never had the need to check for eof in anything I programmed :s
19:57:03 <Aardwolf> what kind of EOF does Lost Kingdom use?
19:57:14 <jix> does Lost Kingdom use EOF?
19:57:47 <jix> programs that read files
19:58:32 <kipple_> there are 3 versions of cat in the Brainfuck article on the wiki. one for each common EOF method
19:58:46 <Aardwolf> I have actually no idea which EOF brainloller uses, I never thought about it while making the interpreter lol
19:59:02 <jix> if you use getc it probably uses -1
19:59:11 <jix> == 0xFF (mod 256)
19:59:29 <kipple_> I read the C spec and it seems like EOF can be ANY negative value...
19:59:44 <jix> kipple_: but probably it's -1
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20:48:59 <Aardwolf> what is brainfuck supposed to do if you do < so many times that the pointer will get a negative value?
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20:54:40 <wildhalcyon> I believe the original spec left that behavior undefined
20:57:34 <jix> most interpreters give an error (a wanted error msg or an unwanted segfault)
21:00:05 <jix> there are not enough programming language that use sound files as source code
21:01:15 <wildhalcyon> I don't disagree, but the ones that do don't seem to do so in a particularly novel way...
21:01:57 <jix> one could try to detect frequencies...
21:02:54 <wildhalcyon> I was thinking more along the lines of beats
21:03:27 <wildhalcyon> I dont supose that would work well with violin or guitar for instance
21:04:19 <wildhalcyon> If you were to use frequencies, how would you.. differentiate them?
21:05:22 <wildhalcyon> Well, right, but would you bin them, or have a fixed-window FFT?
21:05:41 <jix> i know NOTHING about FFTs... so i don't know..
21:06:30 <wildhalcyon> Well, the size of the FFT window is related to the resolution of the frequencies that it can observe
21:06:41 <jix> it's possible with wavelets but i think you need some special transforms for that.. because with a normal transform you can only differentiate between octaves
21:07:40 <wildhalcyon> Really? AFAIK wavelet transforms can be used for frequency detection as well, especially with a very discretized (2~4-bit) wave
21:08:12 <jix> yes but i only looked at wavelet transformations for compressing
21:08:56 <jix> and the high-pass data and low-pass data are spitted at a frequency that is half the sampling rate
21:11:51 <wildhalcyon> It would be interesting to see a language that implemented loops as actual sound loops
21:14:13 <wildhalcyon> You could model it after genetic code - tonal patterns would mark different commands
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21:20:57 <jix> ah continuous wavelet transform seems to be the thing needed for this...
21:21:36 <wildhalcyon> In other news, I think I solved the topology problem that was plaguing my funge-variant.
21:21:53 <jix> i only used discrete wavelet transforms
21:22:59 <wildhalcyon> Well, a discrete Haar wavelet transform should work for CD data
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22:15:44 <Aardwolf> Hey, a turing complete language is never able to generate a true random number, while a quantum random number generator can. Is a program that uses such a thing then "higher" than turing complete?
22:19:53 <lindi-> what's true random number exactly?
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22:40:30 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: Is any particular version of C++ required to compile brainloller? (I have GCC 3.23)
23:02:40 <Aardwolf> {^Raven^}, no not really, it should be all standard C++. I uploaded a very new changed version though, maybe it works now??
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23:48:18 <cpressey> it would not be difficult to define a language which is both turing-complete and can generate truly random numbers... take a turing machine and add a "randomly move head left or right w/equal probability" code, for example.
23:54:02 <cpressey> that machine is turing-complete, meaning, it can do everything a regular turing machine can do. however, if you mean to say that a regular turing machine cannot do everything that that machine can do - that would be correct (modulo the definition of "truly random")
23:55:25 <cpressey> or... another, more succinct way to say what i mean:
23:56:00 <cpressey> unless you believe that *everything* can be reduced to computation, then there are *lots* of things that are "higher than turing-complete" - just look around you :)
23:59:39 <Aardwolf> Wow, Lost Kingdom has a very nasty HUGE loop (the [ and ] very far apart) and now that I set some optimizer setting in my interpreter to let it work with such huge loops, LK suddely goes a lot faster
00:08:19 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: Got it working on Windows ;) Pretty cool !
00:09:09 <Aardwolf> {^Raven^}, did you use the version I uploaded just 5 minutes ago? :)
00:09:37 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: I used version 23:15, i''l check it out
00:10:17 <Aardwolf> In the newest interpreter, once it's loaded and starts displaying texts, LK will respond almost immediatly after pressing commands (unlike version 23:15 ;))
00:10:55 <{^Raven^}> 23:15 beats quite a few BF interpreters for speed
00:10:59 <Aardwolf> I'm playing LK now, just started reading the help files. This saving with z, is it supposed to work? Doesn't work with brainloller
00:11:25 <Aardwolf> (and I would be surprised if it worked with BF interpreters :))
00:12:04 <{^Raven^}> if you die or want to reload choose play again and enter Y
00:12:33 <Aardwolf> Let me know if you noticed a speed difference in the newest interpreter :)
00:14:27 <Aardwolf> It's really amazing that all those long texts and description are all in this BF code!
00:15:48 <Aardwolf> I also appreciate it that you can type "Take 2" instead of "t2", because when I just started I was using "take" without even knowing that it ignored the other letters than t :)
00:18:20 <{^Raven^}> have you seen the help text/backstory yet?
00:18:30 <Aardwolf> Yep, I'm going through all ?'s now
00:18:37 <Aardwolf> After that, I'll go through all !'s
00:18:59 <{^Raven^}> the help and backstory are the two big green blobs in the middle
00:19:02 <Aardwolf> I already figured I'm a king living in a wooden hut instead of his former castle :)
00:20:42 <Aardwolf> "tickle dwarf number 4" haha :)
00:20:42 <{^Raven^}> maybe 100 pixels down from the top
00:21:23 <Aardwolf> What's the huge red part near the bottom with all the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and <<<<<<<<<<<<<<'s?
00:22:19 <{^Raven^}> the big red bit is the the command processor that peforms the actions
00:22:37 <wildhalcyon> This is the most awesome bf program Ive ever seen
00:23:00 <Aardwolf> wildhalcyon, seen it in this form already? http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/brainloller/lk.png
00:24:07 <Aardwolf> So basicly, the greenish parts contain lots of text, and the red parts are mostly calculations :)
00:25:26 <{^Raven^}> the green bar in the top third is the room and object description
00:26:41 <wildhalcyon> Oh yes Aardwolf, indeed I have seen it in beautiful picture form
00:29:41 <Aardwolf> does BFBASIC do a lot of optimizations?
00:30:10 <Aardwolf> For example, things like, trying to put things that are often needed together, near each other in memory so that as few >>> and <<<'s are needed as possible :)
00:30:12 <{^Raven^}> most of the code is not as optimal as it could be
00:30:54 <Aardwolf> Well actually the amount of >>>> and <<<<'s probably doesn't matter in a good brainfuck interpreter (and brainloller skips them too now) but it still saves a lot of space
00:31:20 <{^Raven^}> the main size issue relates to how BFBASIC organises conditional code
00:31:53 <Aardwolf> In the big red parts, it's jumping back and forth between two adresses very far apart, appearantly
00:32:27 <Aardwolf> well more than two addresses actually
00:32:38 <{^Raven^}> yes, BFBASIC uses line numbers to label sections of code, each line has a memory cell associated with it
00:32:54 <{^Raven^}> to jump to a particular line you set the corresponding cell to 1
00:33:07 <Aardwolf> Is it possible that all the texts are stored between conditional variables so that it has to jump over the texts all the time?
00:34:33 <Aardwolf> Where is the "map" in the code? I read that there are 2 mazes for example :)
00:36:06 <{^Raven^}> each room sets the exits when the description is printed
00:36:49 <{^Raven^}> (there are actually two seperate but similiar games in LostKng.b)
00:38:00 <{^Raven^}> the short description version is a truer but enhanced conversion of the original game
00:38:42 <Aardwolf> oh, so there are soms rooms connected differently in the short description version?
00:39:25 <{^Raven^}> the map is the same, but there is a key puzzle which is different
00:39:58 <{^Raven^}> and the long version has the nice descriptions is more similiar to what I wanted to write initially
00:40:12 <Aardwolf> I'm playing the long version for now
00:41:29 <{^Raven^}> the game has been played by a lot of 'mainstream' users
00:41:45 <{^Raven^}> who don't even know what brainfuck is :)
00:42:43 <{^Raven^}> and I only had one esoteric beta-tester of the five
00:43:16 <Aardwolf> it's easy to forget that you're using an interpreter for an esoteric language when a game appears :)
00:44:39 <{^Raven^}> I know that bf is turing complete but I needed to prove that it was possible to do
00:45:17 <Aardwolf> I don't think I know any other bf program that I'd want to run longer than 1 minute
00:45:26 <Aardwolf> This, I could keep running for hours :)
00:45:47 <{^Raven^}> <grin> thanks aardwolf that is a big compliment
00:47:05 <{^Raven^}> it shows that esoteric languages can be used to create useful software for a mainstream audience
00:49:07 <Aardwolf> I find it fun to think about people who play it without knowing what language it's written in, and then out of curiosity they open the .b file and see all those weird symbols :)
00:54:48 <{^Raven^}> lk.png makes an interesting backdrop
00:57:13 <Aardwolf> hmm I wonder if I could use those matches on the dynamite...
00:58:56 <{^Raven^}> as non-command colours are treated as whitespace, it should be possible to embed an image within the program
00:59:35 <Aardwolf> yeah now that you mention it I should still optimize the interpreter to jump over nops
01:00:28 <{^Raven^}> users could create logos that the program would flow around
01:01:19 <Aardwolf> yeah, and it's even possible to hide code in an image
01:02:39 <Aardwolf> it would look consipicious of course
01:03:09 <{^Raven^}> unless the image appears to be a random dot stereogram
01:03:21 <{^Raven^}> i wouldn't like to try and code that though
01:05:48 <Aardwolf> Just uploaded an interpreter that will jump over series of nops (won't make a difference for Lost Kingdom of course)
01:09:30 <{^Raven^}> i would never have imagined using paint shop pro as a programmers editor :P
01:10:59 <Aardwolf> I think Piet was the first language to use an image as source :)
01:15:38 <{^Raven^}> i've got lk.png down to 77.8K and it still works!
01:18:36 <{^Raven^}> http://jonripley.com/volatile/lk2.png
01:19:21 <Aardwolf> Did you use a better png encoder?
01:20:58 <{^Raven^}> yeah, used PSP and have confirmed that the images are binary identical
01:22:01 <Aardwolf> I'll see how big it is when saved with the gimp
01:22:50 <Aardwolf> 136kb, and I set compression level to highest
01:25:17 <Aardwolf> aha! managed to bring it to 72KB with the gimp
01:25:30 <Aardwolf> by using indexed color with 16 colors
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07:48:29 <nooga> i looked at that: http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/brainloller/lk.png
07:48:47 <nooga> and now i want to create a image based esolang ! ;d
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09:07:50 <GregorR> All the cool kids make image-based esolangs.
09:08:08 <GregorR> What's wrong nooga ... aren't you cool ... /me gives nooga an image-bong.
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11:43:28 <Aardwolf> you know what's fun, draw some random lines or pixels on lk.png, save it, and run that. I got this output:
11:43:30 <Aardwolf> a bed. FiFiiiGi<iC<9<=E<i;i<FBiB=iiA;::iB:i7AiiE==<
11:43:32 <Aardwolf> a^y[^Y^y`^[Zy4yYUZy[[^y`[y`y_`yX_y[a`_y`[y
11:46:22 <{^Raven^}> I like the idea that brainroller has about 16.7 million different NOP instructions
11:50:36 <Aardwolf> 4 billion if you use a RGBA png :)
11:51:29 <{^Raven^}> that's almost one NOP per human on the planet
11:55:03 <Aardwolf> I think I found a bug in my png decoder, it gives an error on a png while other decoders can perfectly open it
12:06:03 <Aardwolf> oh it's not a problem after all, it's because I was loading the image while kolourpaint was still busy saving it
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12:10:58 <Aardwolf> You have reclaimed your birthright and your crown.
12:11:01 <Aardwolf> You scored 1 points out of a possible 3.
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12:58:41 <{^Raven^}> (it's all in the back story anyways)
13:03:13 <Aardwolf> I keep dying in the cave due to the cat :)
13:05:19 <Aardwolf> I drew a map on paper showing all connections in the forest and the path and such :)
14:02:16 <Aardwolf> I'm already at 75/100 points in the meantime :)
14:08:01 <{^Raven^}> I'm tempted to call my new game 23:15 after the version of brainloller that compiled for me
14:08:51 <{^Raven^}> (its not an esoteric project though, just for the 2k adventure comp)
14:09:36 <Aardwolf> make sure it wins the competition :)
14:10:16 <Aardwolf> a question, does the catacomb maze change after the fire is out?
14:21:56 <{^Raven^}> (some people never make it through the catacombs)
14:27:29 <Aardwolf> I managed to make a map of the catacombs by marking all rooms with a different object (there were a bit too few objects to mark them all though ;))
14:33:23 <Aardwolf> It's a very confusing map full of arrows, because of all those rooms connecting to themselves and such
14:34:19 <Aardwolf> I'm trying to open the metal door no
14:38:54 <Aardwolf> You have reclaimed your birthright and your crown.
14:38:54 <Aardwolf> You scored 99 points out of a possible 100.
14:38:54 <Aardwolf> You have earned the rank of Master, First Class.
14:39:36 <Aardwolf> (I knew that getting all points wouldn't be easy, it's always like that in adventur games ;))
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15:35:49 <nooga> i have an idea for an image based esolang:>
15:46:39 <nooga> i thought about it
15:47:43 <nooga> and i think i've invented just a image notation that can be applied to a number of esolangs
15:49:58 <nooga> to calculate delta between two pixels
15:50:18 <nooga> and depending on that delta select the instruction to execute
15:50:43 <nooga> wait a sec, i'll introdouce a little example
15:54:36 <nooga> d = delta = abs((R1-R2+G1-G2+B1-B2)/3)
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16:08:57 <Aardwolf> oh so you introduced some freedom so that you can choose colors for pixels to allow your code to look like photos and such :)
16:10:20 <nooga_> and such image can be compiled into brainfuck, befunge or maybe other language ...
16:10:50 <Aardwolf> I'd want to suggest that a large d is also a nop
16:11:17 <Aardwolf> then when you need to make a large color difference at the edges of things in your picture it won't disturb the code
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16:19:58 <nooga_> cholera, nie nie mogles gdzie indziej?!
16:20:11 <nooga_> woo.. ups, excuse me, wrong window :>
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16:22:20 <nooga_> i heard that Polish is one of the most difficult languages on the earth ;p
16:22:46 <Aardwolf> Dutch is pretty hard too I heard :)
16:23:10 <Aardwolf> brainfuck on the other hand, is a pretty easy language
16:24:33 <jix> german has a weird grammar
16:24:37 <nooga_> but coding difficulty is inversely proportional to the language complexity
16:24:59 <jix> nooga_: no..
16:25:27 <jix> malbolge is very complex
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16:25:46 <jix> and its verrrrry difficuilt to code in it
16:26:09 <nooga> but C# is rather more complex than malbolge, and it's fairly easy to code in it
16:26:43 <nooga> wait a minute, I must check that malbolge
16:28:33 <Aardwolf> it's a programming language from hell ;)
16:29:23 <nooga> i dont like M$ but i like C# :>
16:29:34 <nooga> it's good whan you don't have time to play
16:29:49 <Aardwolf> what's so good about C#? (never used it)
16:29:54 <nooga> make an idea, code, finish
16:30:02 <nooga> without any bigger problems
16:30:18 <jix> hah ruby has one step less make an idea (write it down using ruby code because you start thinking in ruby code), finish
16:30:41 <Aardwolf> I just wanted to mention ruby and python :)
16:31:20 <nooga> but C# syntax is quite comfortable
16:31:33 <nooga> i also like perl, but it's another story
16:31:36 <jix> ruby's syntax is really nice
16:31:50 <jix> perl is too cryptic for a non-esoteric langauge
16:32:10 <nooga> i heard an opinion that perl is a big esolang :D
16:32:12 <jix> perl is really useless...
16:33:09 <jix> and perl code is unmaintainable
16:33:38 <jix> nooga: c is old too
16:34:24 <jix> Ruby > * muahahahaaha ;)
16:34:28 <Aardwolf> no way, C++ code compiles in any platform :)
16:34:49 <jix> obj-c is nice too
16:35:11 <jix> it's a bit more dynamic than c++
16:36:02 <jix> and there is obj-c++ which allows you too mix c++ and obj-c (and c)
16:36:33 <jix> i really like obj-c's memory management
16:37:01 <jix> that's something i'm missing in c++
16:37:18 <Aardwolf> I just use std::vectors in C++ these days, no worries and always reliable
16:37:49 <Aardwolf> malloc and new and free are horrible
16:37:50 <jix> Aardwolf: i'm talking about [object retain] and [object release]
16:38:38 <jix> if you use some objects there and there and there it helps a lot avoiding memory leaks/freeing of used memory
16:39:13 <jix> it's like manual reference counting
16:39:54 <jix> i'd like doing this with c++ templates
16:40:02 <jix> or adding a method to all c++ classes
16:40:44 <jix> because c++ is faster than obj-c because obj-c has to do method lookups for every method call
16:41:04 <jix> it's as dynamic as ruby if you don't count the c types like int etc...
16:41:21 <jix> but the implementation of the lookups is a bit more low-level so it's still faster than ruby
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16:41:30 <jix> moin wildhalcyon
16:43:43 <wildhalcyon_> I had an idea for it.. but Im not sure how crazy you would be about it
16:43:44 <Aardwolf> it has a better spec and a better interpreter than yesterday so it's going fine :)
16:44:09 <nooga> C# has got the best MM and GC
16:44:46 <wildhalcyon_> Suppose the entire instruction set fit in a single color space - like all the instructions were Red instructions
16:45:16 <wildhalcyon_> Add two more instructions to flip up and down between the color spaces, so you could theoretically encode 3 instructions per pixel
16:45:40 <wildhalcyon_> Add that to a language like SNUSP and you've got yourself an esolang to be PROUD of
16:46:06 <nooga> wildhalcyon_: look above, how do you like my idea with deltas ?
16:46:18 <Aardwolf> Well, each pixel is 24 bit (32 if you add A channel but that's too annoying to edit in painting programs) and since there are only 10 instructions (4-bit instructions) you could get up to 6 instructions per pixel :)
16:47:47 <wildhalcyon_> Aardwolf: even if you include the two switch instructions?
16:48:12 <wildhalcyon_> nooga: I like the idea, but I don't like the equation
16:48:16 <Aardwolf> with 4 bit you can get up to 16 instructions
16:48:22 <nooga> wildhalcyon_: why not? :>
16:48:52 <wildhalcyon_> try d = delta = [abs(R1-R2) + abs(G1-G2) + abs(B1-B2)] mod n maybe?
16:49:55 <wildhalcyon_> You could still div by 3, but that could allow for non-integer values for the delta
16:50:24 <Aardwolf> hey if you make the n in the formula equal to the amount of instructions, you get a lot of freedom
16:50:29 <Aardwolf> then you can literally make almost any image
16:50:54 <Aardwolf> because then if there are say 10 instructions, a color difference of 0, 10, 20, 30 are all the same instruction :)
16:51:08 <wildhalcyon_> small color differences on the order of n per 2^24 gives a wide range of acceptable small noise values
16:51:45 <Aardwolf> You could also try abs((65536*R1+256*G1+B1) - (65536*R2+256*G2+B2)) mod n
16:53:18 <wildhalcyon_> that might work better for a larger instruction set
16:57:37 <Aardwolf> or just 65536*R+256*G+B mod 10 (for 10 instructions), then a brainfuck to image converter could take an original source image and modify the pixels a little bit so that they all have the correct value after mod 10, you will barely see the difference with the original image
16:57:42 <nooga> what are those lemons on the esolang wiki? ;p
16:58:23 <nooga> i don't se a connection betweens limes and esolangs
16:58:35 <kipple> but it looks nice at leats
16:58:49 <nooga> maybe someone can design some logo ;p
16:58:51 <kipple> there are porbably more esoteric fruits than lime
16:58:55 <wildhalcyon_> a sophisticated converter would probably implement a function to modify different colors up/down depending on local content
16:59:04 <wildhalcyon_> Im not sure WHAT about the local content, but something
16:59:15 <nooga> i thought about that
16:59:53 <nooga> i tried to invant a encryption algorhitm that will use images
17:00:24 <nooga> and that idea with delta came to my head ;p
17:01:33 <wildhalcyon_> In my medical imaging class I was devising a befunge program I call The Diggler.
17:01:46 <wildhalcyon_> It travels in a straight line, encrypting/mangling whatever is in its path
17:02:21 <nooga> but it can help to smuggle some text in image
17:03:14 <Aardwolf> Mind if I make a new language that uses this formula 65536*R+256*G+B mod 11? (8 bf instructions, 2 rotation instructions, 1 nop)
17:03:21 <wildhalcyon_> It would be interesting to devise a rewritable bf variant that did the same thing. Probably MUCH harder considering how big an encryption algo in BF would need to be
17:03:22 <Aardwolf> and has the same specs as brainloller for the rest
17:04:24 <wildhalcyon_> Mind if I implement a SNUSP derivative of Brainloller that uses SNUSP code with the 3 color space idea above?
17:05:29 <Aardwolf> Now all that remains, is finding a nice computer rendered image of 1482x1480 pixels that shows a fantasy setting similar to that of Lost Kingdom
17:06:06 <wildhalcyon_> You could include an braincopter-decoder which replaces the image with the brainloller equivalent
17:06:35 <Aardwolf> almost no modification to the interpreter is needed :D
17:06:48 <Aardwolf> only the bftobmp translator is a bit harder
17:08:15 <Aardwolf> {^Raven^}, have you got a large image that represents the world of Lost Kingdom, that I could use? :)
17:11:20 <Aardwolf> only 2 lines of the brainloller interpreter had to be changed to make it a braincopter interpreter!
17:11:53 <Aardwolf> darn no 12, I also need to include changed numbers in the switch statement
17:12:34 <nooga> i think that Lost Kingdom was written in BFBASIC
17:12:52 <nooga> it's almost impossible to code such thing in pure bf
17:13:56 <{^Raven^}> it would definately be a non-trivial excercise to debug
17:13:58 <Aardwolf> yeah but once you have the LK brainfuck source it's easy to convert it to almost anything
17:19:11 <wildhalcyon_> Anyone remember the name of the befunge derivative that had commands for picking up elements above and below the pointer?
17:25:54 <nooga> thanks wildhalcyon
17:26:28 <nooga> now i'm able to write an image based esolang
17:34:01 <wildhalcyon_> There's an audio watermarking algorithm thats resistant to compression (suitable for mp3s) but it doesn't encode a very large watermark
17:35:29 <wildhalcyon_> http://ecwww.eurecom.fr/~doerr/icip2002Miller.pdf
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17:44:28 <Aardwolf> *looks at his keyboard to see the distance between the g and the p key*
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21:06:59 <Aardwolf> {^Raven^}, here's Lost Kingdom again, but now as braincopter source and with a forest image as background: http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/braincopter/lk.png
21:07:33 <Aardwolf> The code is pretty much invisible, but is really in the pixels :)
21:11:26 <jix> i have to sleep now canÄz zype anymore---
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22:58:29 <calamari> Aardwolf: are you Adrian Chiang?
22:59:15 <calamari> ahh, ok.. they emailed me and I wasn't sure I if knew them or not :)
22:59:46 <calamari> just had a (possibly) interesting idea, though
23:00:09 <calamari> I could have wiki files that were symbolic links to other webpages
23:00:29 <Aardwolf> like, you think you're in the wiki but you're actually on another site?
23:00:47 <calamari> so, for example Lost Kingdom wouldn't have to be copied to the wiki (1) it's huge (2) copyright violation
23:01:21 <calamari> so instead I'd just save a link to the Lost_Kingdom source code
23:01:39 <Aardwolf> I hope that those symbolic links won't encourage people to use it too much and not make any more public domain content anymore
23:01:56 <calamari> wouldn't be writable, for obvious reasons.. but would expand the code base quite a bit without killing the wiki
23:02:27 <calamari> hmm, I wonder if that'd be a problem
23:03:14 <Aardwolf> Well as long as it's obvious that it's a link to another website it's fine, I guess?
23:04:14 <calamari> perhaps it's rude.. but I don't think there is a law against it :) riaa can get away with taking down links because ppl know they can't put up enough $ to defend against any lawsuits
23:04:57 <calamari> no, I'll take down links if ppl complain ;)
23:05:50 <calamari> or even better would be to redirect to a explanation message
23:06:17 <Aardwolf> so what would such a symbolic link look like, for example the Lost Kingdom source code?
23:06:30 <calamari> well currently files look like this:
23:06:31 <Aardwolf> And will it use bandwidth of the external website everytime someone views the wiki page?
23:06:54 <calamari> <blockquote><pre>program</pre></blockquote>
23:07:27 <calamari> re:bandwidth: no, it won't use bandwidth unless the file was viewed
23:08:12 <calamari> it would need to be used one when the file was created (to get the size).. so I can imagine something like:
23:09:03 <calamari> <blockquote><pre>url\nsize</pre></blockquote>
23:09:29 <calamari> -> might need to be tweaked, that's just off the top of my head
23:10:00 <calamari> it's nice in that it starts with -, usually reserved for program options
23:10:14 <calamari> also > is for redriection of stdout
23:10:20 <Aardwolf> So basically, it would be like a link that can be put inside the article instead of at external resources, and the size will be shown? :)
23:10:37 <calamari> but when you use the "file" it loads from the exteral site
23:11:02 <Aardwolf> oh yeah I see, I understand why some people might complain :)
23:11:48 <calamari> perhaps it could be loaded once
23:12:03 <calamari> then after that it would be in memory and never downloaded again
23:15:01 <calamari> I'm just glad to have a shell and hosting with no bandwidth limits for $5 a month :)
23:15:28 <calamari> csoft.net, directory account.. still offered
23:15:57 <Aardwolf> I'm looking to have some webscpace once my univ page is gone, but I'll look for a Belgian company I think :)
23:16:20 <calamari> wow, 650mb space.. thought it was 250mb, guess they upgraded us :)
23:17:03 <Aardwolf> Well yeah I hope to have my own .be domain one day :)
23:17:09 <calamari> see my scheming to use your bandwidth?
23:17:38 <calamari> does it seem underhanded, or is it okay?
23:18:08 <{^Raven^}> for me it's fine as long as it's not using 100% bandwidth 100% of the time
23:19:34 <calamari> I began to see that the wiki was great for storing experiments and small programs.. but for huge pre-made stuff, it was not very appropriate (i.e. almost anything compiled with bfbasic :)
23:20:00 <{^Raven^}> hehe, most bfbasic programs are quite small - usually
23:20:55 <{^Raven^}> it's not like you will be stealing bandwidth for silly things like images
23:20:55 <calamari> glad to hear it, although I'm not sure I believe it.. :)
23:21:35 <{^Raven^}> and as long as the original page is linked and the source is listed then you're not pretending that it's yours
23:22:01 <{^Raven^}> calamari: they're not pictures - they're programs ;)
23:22:41 <Aardwolf> {^Raven^}, : seen the Braincopter lk.png already? :)
23:23:15 <Aardwolf> http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/braincopter/
23:23:28 <Aardwolf> it looks like a normal image of a forest tho, it's actually boring when you can't really see the code :)
23:23:34 <calamari> raven: haha that's an aawesome background
23:24:14 <Aardwolf> (btw the forest picture might be copyrighted)
23:24:55 <Aardwolf> (it would be much nicer to have a lost-kingdom related, computer rendered image, rendered at the correct size)
23:25:23 <{^Raven^}> so the code is stored as delta variances within the image?
23:25:34 <Aardwolf> no, each pixel is a command on it's own
23:25:52 <Aardwolf> the command is gotten as (65536*R+256*G+B) mod 11 (because there are 11 commands including the NOP)
23:25:57 <calamari> btw, is it supposed to be Enchanced rather than Enhanced?\
23:26:22 <Aardwolf> enchanced is not an english word
23:26:52 <{^Raven^}> (it would need to be, it's almost 1000 times bigger than the original)
23:27:26 <{^Raven^}> Ardvark: that you pulled it off (the forest piccy) pretty impressive
23:27:28 <calamari> raven: btw did you enter the compo?
23:27:32 <Aardwolf> btw I finished the "short description" verson too, it was just too easy because of the maps I drew, but I was stuck on the cliff without compass once ;)
23:27:55 <{^Raven^}> oops, i knew i'd do that at least once
23:28:11 <Aardwolf> what happens if you press an a and then the tab button?
23:29:19 <{^Raven^}> calamari: My game is almost finished, will enter it in a day or two
23:29:21 <calamari> settings, preferences, input box, nick completion suffix
23:29:41 <calamari> raven: oh, did he extend the deadline?
23:30:06 <{^Raven^}> calamari: yes, deadline is 15th of Sept
23:31:29 <{^Raven^}> kind of sci-fi text adventure, possibly in the lost kingdom universe on earth a thousand years after the war
23:32:44 <Aardwolf> in the BF version, is it intentional that there are just 10 items so that every item ID is a single letter? I ask because I noticed it sees 10 as a different value than 1 (unlike it seeing throw as the same as t), and because of the 55 example with the dwarf
23:37:40 <{^Raven^}> it was intentional to simplify the parser, there were only 10 objects in the original game so it seemed logical to use 0-9
23:38:21 <{^Raven^}> for the parser, only the first character and the last digit are significant, everything else is ignored
23:38:52 <Aardwolf> were there a lot of modifications needed in the original BASIC code, to make it work for BF?
23:39:22 <{^Raven^}> a few modifications were needed to BFBASIC
23:39:42 <{^Raven^}> but the game was completely written from scratch in BFBASIC
23:40:40 <Aardwolf> to print something like "99/100", I guess there are conversions needed from char value to decimal output, does BFBASIC handle that sort of things automatically?
23:40:44 <{^Raven^}> the original source was 2.74Kb of BBC BASIC, the BFBASIC source is over 80Kb long
23:42:34 <{^Raven^}> to print 99/100 you would use: PRINT score;"/";maxscore
23:44:04 <{^Raven^}> BFBASIC is a very powerful language
23:44:09 <Aardwolf> wow, the BBCBASIC code looks very obfuscated :D
23:45:11 <Aardwolf> The file LostKingdom.bcc from LostKingdom17.zip
23:46:20 <{^Raven^}> it is, even if you can load it into BBC BASIC and LIST it (to see the tokens and stuff)
23:47:03 <{^Raven^}> the game text is compressed and encrypted to about 75% original size
23:47:55 <Aardwolf> I'm testing the bbcbasic version (in Wine emulator), now I realize how different it is from the BF version
23:49:40 <{^Raven^}> calamari: want to know some stats of the new game?
23:50:52 <{^Raven^}> it's a lot more limited but was still the best game by far entered into the 2004 comp
23:51:10 <{^Raven^}> nothing else came close in depth and complexity
23:52:26 <{^Raven^}> have you seen: http://jonripley.com/bb4w/software/MiniLogo.html
23:52:50 <{^Raven^}> it is a complete implementation of turtle graphics in one-line of BBC BASIC and only 250 bytes lobg
23:56:18 <{^Raven^}> my game for the 2005 comp is significantly more advanced then Lost Kingdom
23:59:14 <{^Raven^}> 2.4kb of game code with a 7.9Kb data file (so far)
23:59:38 <{^Raven^}> (as we can have an 8K data file this year)
00:00:34 <{^Raven^}> it made it harder because there was too much that could be done
00:02:31 <Aardwolf> oh ok, it's a forum for game developers I thought you might know it because of you interest in developing games :)
00:04:45 <{^Raven^}> i'm a chiefly a utility/tool programmer
00:08:30 <{^Raven^}> calamari: have you had any chance to play with or work on BFBASIC in the last few months?
00:09:43 <calamari> nope.. and wont have any time, sorry
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00:28:32 <Aardwolf> It's sort of stupid that Category pages only show a listing after you added a description
00:51:45 <kipple> before you add a description there is no page
00:56:13 <Aardwolf> I improved and added a few things, hopefully for the better :)
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13:06:08 <kipple> I have no problems viewing yesterday's log
13:12:52 <Aardwolf> *opens the log in other browser*
13:13:11 <Aardwolf> aha the old version is cached and refuses to redownload after pressing F5
13:17:19 <Aardwolf> Can a language that only has a stack, that can only push and pop (no swap, rolldown, ...) be turing complete?
13:20:32 <lindi-> Aardwolf: if it's equivalent to a pushdown automaton then no
13:21:42 <lindi-> Aardwolf: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pushdown_automaton
13:39:44 <pgimeno> it might depend on the specifications; if it has div/mod and unlimited integers it might be TC because the top element of the stack might act as a counter
13:42:29 <Aardwolf> appearantly if you have two stacks it can be TC
13:46:57 <pgimeno> see also http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine
13:47:53 <pgimeno> "He also describes a variation which is Turing-complete with only one register; this variation requires that the machine has operations to:
13:47:53 <pgimeno> * multiply the register by a constant; and
13:47:53 <pgimeno> * check to see if it is divisible by a constant, and if so, divide by that constant and affect an alternate state transition. "
13:57:41 <kipple> Aardwolf: with two stacks you can emulate an unbounded tape, so that is definately sufficient
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14:46:27 <jix> i'm trying to build a minimalistic turing complete language for writing the smallest ruby interpreter for an esolang ever
14:46:45 <jix> hmm maybe my bfx.rb is the smallest ruby esolang interpreter but it's too large
14:48:13 <kipple> so it has to be even more minimalistic than bf? good luck
14:48:31 <Aardwolf> I'm designing another image based language, pretty minimalistic but more complex than brainloller
14:48:40 <jix> no not more minimalistic than bf
14:48:52 <jix> but the implementation in ruby is more minimalistic
14:50:54 <kipple> jix: so, what part of bf takes the most bytes of ruby code to implement?
14:51:36 <jix> you can't really say which part takes most bytes
14:52:35 <kipple> can I see the ruby code?
14:53:18 <jix> $>.sync=m="\0";j=0;eval$<.read.tr(x='^[]+><,.-',"").gsub(/./){%w{while\ m[\
14:53:18 <jix> j]>0 end m[j]+=1 (j+=1)>=m.size&&m<<0 j-=1 m[j]=STDIN.getc||0 putc\ m[j]
14:53:18 <jix> m[j]-=1}[x.index($&)-1]+";"}#esoteric@irc.freenode.net Jannis Harder 2005#
14:54:28 <kipple> dropping IO is of course an easy way to shave off some chars, but a bit cheating :)
14:54:42 <kipple> IO is not necessary for TC
14:54:47 <jix> but i want IO
15:01:28 <jix> bad idea...
15:07:41 <jix> oisc-a-like is pretty easy to implement
15:14:30 <jix> the cpu is implemented in 70 bytes but IO is missing
15:14:46 <jix> oh in 68 byte
15:16:11 <jix> in 64 byte
15:19:59 <jix> cpu with io in 116 bytes
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16:15:10 <nooga> i just discovered that i just can't get myself to write a big and useful application
16:15:37 <nooga> i'm only able to make to spend my time on something useless but funny ;p
16:16:40 <kipple> how big is 'big' in this context?
16:23:23 <jix> i'm at 149 byte!
16:23:38 <kipple> huh? is it getting bigger?
16:23:48 <jix> my IO was incomlpete
16:23:54 <jix> no EOF handling
16:24:19 <kipple> how far is that from the bf version?
16:24:29 <jix> the BF IO is complete
16:24:31 <jix> with EOF == 0
16:24:49 <kipple> I meant how many bytes smaller is this one than the BF one
16:25:11 <jix> 177 vs 149
16:25:26 <kipple> 149 fits nicely on two sig-lines :)
16:25:53 <nooga> what are you doing jix
16:26:14 <jix> writing a OISC like interpreter with at less bytes as possible
16:31:37 <nooga> in what language ?;p
16:32:14 <nooga> i dun like it, it reminds me of ADA ;p
16:32:29 <jix> i don't know ada but ruby really rules
16:33:00 <jix> at first you think that syntax is weird but if you start using it you'll love the syntax
16:34:59 <nooga> the syntax is werid
16:35:09 <nooga> i dont like that ends everywhere
16:35:27 <jix> i don't like } everywhere
16:36:04 <nooga> but writing } everywhere is much faster then writing end everywhere
16:36:33 <jix> for } i need 2 keys pressed at the same time.. i'm faster pressing 3 keys one after each other
16:38:49 <jix> and i'm faster at writing letters than special chars
16:40:06 <jix> and ruby has rails!
16:40:17 <nooga> i'm accustomed with writing special chars ;p
16:40:29 <jix> the super-cool web framewrok
16:40:42 <jix> http://www.rubyonrails.com/
16:42:39 <nooga> but when i seek something to learn ruby i find only stupid manuals ;p
16:42:46 <jix> but there are ends everywhere ;)
16:43:01 <jix> buy pickaxe
16:43:10 <jix> or read pickaxe 1 online for free
16:43:16 <nooga> long time ago i coded in pascal ;p
16:43:51 <nooga> so i know something about ends ;p
16:44:15 <jix> but in pascal you write ENDs and not ends, right?
16:44:40 <nooga> and begins begins and begins... ;p
16:44:51 <jix> http://ruby-doc.org/docs/ProgrammingRuby/ << i learned ruby using that
16:45:02 <jix> it's for ruby 1.6 but most things are true for 1.8 too
16:45:26 <jix> there are begins in ruby too.. for error handling
16:46:07 <jix> begin\ncode\nrescue RuntimeError\nputs "Failed!"\nend
16:47:17 <jix> replace \n with newlines
16:47:31 <jix> you could use ; but in ruby you rarely use ;
16:47:50 <jix> oh and ruby has irb
16:48:00 <grim_> we are thinking about using ruby here where I work
16:48:10 <jix> grim_: cool
16:48:26 <grim_> I have not had a chance to look at it properly though
16:48:44 <jix> one thing i like about ruby is the community
16:49:37 <nooga> hm, i must check that whole ruby
16:49:57 <nooga> for i in 1..x statement looks cool
16:50:28 <jix> (1..x).each do |i| is more rubysque
16:50:39 <jix> and you start to love blocks
16:50:57 <jix> haskell is a nice language too
16:51:25 <jix> for some things functional languages are the best solution for some things functional and oo languages are good and for some things oo is better
16:52:14 <jix> nooga: writing webframeworks in haskell sucks
16:52:20 <nooga> all i know about haskell is that it's an old, academic language ;p
16:52:33 <nooga> object oriented ;p
16:53:01 <grim_> common misconceptions ;) but I am no great advocate of it
16:53:05 <grim_> I just find it fun
16:53:22 <jix> haskell has some pretty cool things.. like generating a list of ALL prime numbers and print the first 10
16:53:32 <jix> that was my first usefull haskell program
16:54:09 <grim_> lazy evaluation is fun generally
16:55:14 <jix> one of my first haskell programs: http://rafb.net/paste/results/TzQvS266.html
16:55:18 <grim_> ruby seems very practical anyway
16:55:41 <nooga> why i can't just write: count = 0
16:55:51 <jix> nooga: because count is a class-variable
16:55:59 <jix> it's a variable shared by all instances of that class
16:56:17 <jix> normal local variables have no special sign in front of them
16:56:45 <jix> just global-variables (rarely used) instance variables (called member variables in some other languages) and class variables
16:56:58 <jix> sometimes class variables are called singleton variables
16:58:43 <grim_> can it not derive that from context?
16:58:43 <jix> because singleton classes are classes that have only one instance
16:58:58 <jix> and class variables are shared by all instances so they exist only once
16:59:58 <grim_> I'm going to stop now as I don't know enough about the language to discuss it
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17:11:26 <jix> ah.. added a new feature i'd like to have: 161 bytes
17:28:02 <jix> ich habe hello world in subskin geschrieben!
17:28:10 <jix> wrong lang ^^
17:28:18 <jix> i've written hello world in subskin
17:28:38 <jix> i was switching between german and english too fast...
17:29:17 <jix> subskin == SUBtract and SKip If Negative
17:30:55 <jix> i have cat.subskin too
17:34:33 <grim_> something's just popped into my head
17:34:47 <grim_> it appears to be a language where the only data type is the memory reference
17:35:13 <grim_> and where memory references are also interpreted as instructions
17:35:24 <jix> i just have memory references
17:35:36 <jix> only memory references
17:36:02 <grim_> yes, referencing only data from within the source file
17:36:14 <grim_> and addressing that memory lexically
17:36:25 <grim_> (lexical memory addresses have been in my head for a while now)
17:37:06 <grim_> eg [7:12] refers to line 7, word 12
17:37:55 <grim_> * to dereference (presumably getting another memory reference in return)
17:38:48 <grim_> already it hurts to think about
17:44:51 <jix> i removed the sync feature
17:45:46 <jix> here is the code:
17:45:46 <jix> m=readlines.map{|e|e.hex};loop{m[1]<0||$><<m[1].chr&&m[1]=-1;m[2]<0&&m[2]=
17:45:46 <jix> STDIN.getc||256;a,b,c=m[m[0],3];q=(m[c]=m[a]-m[b])<0?6:3;m[0]+=q}rescue 0
17:50:50 <{^Raven^}> grim_: are you a RISC OS user? I saw you mentioned it the other day
17:56:29 <grim_> {^Raven^}: a lapsed RISC OS user I'm afraid
17:56:43 <grim_> never upgraded from my A3000
17:57:36 <grim_> I've played with Red Squirrel a bit for my nostalgia fix
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19:03:12 <{^Raven^}> grim_: i still use a RISC PC every day
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20:18:10 <wildhalcyon> Im trying to write a 2D procedural object-oriented language. Damn, this is hard work
20:23:30 <grim_> {^Raven^}: it would be lovely but I can't see myself switching back in the near future
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21:12:36 * jix is going to write his User:jix and Jannis Harder wiki page
21:35:13 <jix> who has write access to the file archive?
21:55:09 <jix> i'm working at the Subskin wiki pae
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22:53:37 * grim_ considers what instruction set to use
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06:39:44 <calamari> well, EsoShell doesn't work with gcj.. does compile tho! :)
06:43:52 <nooga> i don't believe in such things
06:44:50 <nooga> java was designed to produce it's own bytecode
06:46:02 <nooga> i just saw the jsux, do you know what's it?
06:47:36 <calamari> I have no idea what you're talking about, I feel okay about that in this channel, tho :)
06:48:23 <nooga> jsuix is a javascript unix implementation :)
06:48:45 <nooga> UNIX-like OS written in JavaScript
06:48:48 <nooga> http://www.masswerk.at/jsuix/
06:51:03 <nooga> click "open terminal"
06:51:19 <nooga> it's amazing, they even have ported vi
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07:07:41 <lament> nooga__: what you meant to say was
07:07:45 <lament> "java was designed to be slow"
07:07:51 <lament> a fact which i can't really agree with :)
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08:26:54 <Keymaker> the gammaplex inventor is not here, right? :(
08:27:40 <Keymaker> anyways, perhaps someone else could help me; how do it store the stack's top value to something register?
08:56:25 * nooga is trying to write a SADOL compiler for x86
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10:01:19 <Keymaker> you were the gammaplex author?
10:01:30 -!- jix has joined.
10:01:49 <Keymaker> i just 10 seconds ago completed my first ever gammaplex program:
10:02:02 <Aardwolf> I'll check out what it does :)
10:02:17 <Keymaker> it's nothing special but it was my first :)
10:02:25 <Aardwolf> btw jix, Brainloller can't have infinite loops, the IP rotarors are reversible, and the IP starts at top left ;)
10:03:46 <jix> Aardwolf: ahh
10:03:53 <nooga> im' writing the "hunt the wumpus" game in SADOL :D
10:04:25 <Aardwolf> gotta recompile the gammaplex interpreter
10:04:37 <jix> Keymaker: cool
10:04:56 <jix> it does more than my first gammaplex program
10:04:59 <jix> it works...
10:05:56 <jix> who has write access to the esolang file archive?
10:06:41 <Aardwolf> it makes the screen blue if you click on it? :)
10:08:04 <Keymaker> who will help me with my 3d engine project in gammaplex?
10:08:27 <Aardwolf> that's what deltaplex is for, if I ever manage to finish it :)
10:08:45 <Aardwolf> drawing textured 3D triangles with only a few commands
10:09:11 <Aardwolf> there's even a terrain engine in it which is already finished :)
10:09:30 <Keymaker> woah.. it'll be something never-seen-before
10:09:32 <Aardwolf> you just give a heightmap, a texture, a colormap, some coordinates, and the drawterrain command :)
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10:12:48 <Keymaker> aardwolf; how do i get random numbers for example between 0 and 50?
10:17:01 <Keymaker> i think we should run a gammaplex demo competition
10:18:51 <jix> well why not?
10:20:29 <Keymaker> should there be something theme, limitation or other?
10:20:42 <Aardwolf> hehe yeah, a limitation in code size maybe
10:21:19 <Keymaker> and probably non-interactive demo as well?
10:21:25 <Aardwolf> can someone do better than tron3k's pong? :)
10:22:01 <Aardwolf> non interactive demos would be cool but maybe a bit slow on gammaplex
10:22:14 <Aardwolf> after all, drawing a single mandelbrot is already taking a while
10:22:22 <Keymaker> probably not slower than intereactive
10:22:37 <Aardwolf> yeah but in a non interactive the graphics are a bit more important :)
10:22:48 <Aardwolf> in interactive you can get away with two paddles and a ball :D
10:23:10 <Keymaker> i meant with "interactive" stuff that user can click buttons and something happens
10:23:24 <Keymaker> and with "non-interactive" a demo that just runs and ignores all clickings
10:23:46 <Keymaker> but in every case the demo should be not a still picture
10:23:59 <Aardwolf> something like those demos (Unreal and Second Reality and such) would be too slow :(
10:24:24 <Keymaker> it won't need to be anything very awesome
10:24:41 <Keymaker> i mean for example a bouncing ball would be neat already
10:25:56 <Aardwolf> Has anyone ideas how I can optimize the interpreter? Also it has a huge switch case because there are so many commands, I wonder if that is taking away a lot of speed?
10:26:57 <Keymaker> btw; it will take about two or three weeks until i have properly spare time for this
10:27:05 <Keymaker> but then i guess we could start a competition
10:27:47 <Keymaker> just wondering how we would get 'nuff entries
10:28:29 <Aardwolf> hmm I wonder if the demo scene can be attracted to gammaplex
10:28:41 <Aardwolf> You know, Deltaplex would be so much better for this sort of stuff with it's 3D graphics :)
10:29:04 <Aardwolf> except it's harder to code in it
10:29:09 <Aardwolf> because the commands are on an image
10:30:23 <Keymaker> i've got one idea you could possibly do
10:30:45 <Keymaker> for example make all the deltaplex files to be some dpx packages
10:31:00 <Keymaker> and some program to stuff all the textures, code and images into a dpx package
10:31:09 <Keymaker> then the interpreter reads the package and so on
10:31:20 <Keymaker> and the code could be 2d txt like in gammaplex
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10:31:35 <Keymaker> and it'd be a lot easier to handle all the textures and stuff if they were separate files
10:31:43 <Aardwolf> hmm but that would remove something I find so nice, the textures and code being together on an image
10:31:59 <Aardwolf> I have another idea, make a sort of IDE that will put it all on the image
10:32:32 <Keymaker> otherwise it can be rather difficult to do anything
10:32:42 <Aardwolf> apart from paint shop pro, no painting program is good enough to do it
10:32:50 <Aardwolf> and PSP doesnt work in linux :cries:
10:33:07 <Aardwolf> (only PSP shows the RGB color if you go with the mouse over the pixel)
10:33:31 <Aardwolf> and that's important to know which command the pixel is
10:33:56 <Aardwolf> I've been thinking about making a simple painting program that would do this, but I'm stuck in QT
10:36:52 <Aardwolf> I could make the painting program in OpenGL tho, using my OpenGL gui :)
10:36:52 <Aardwolf> but that would be weird, not? A IDE/painting program in OpenGL?
10:36:52 <Aardwolf> have you got any suggestions for new gammaplex commands?
10:37:42 <Keymaker> i was thinking about deltaplex
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10:42:31 <Aardwolf> it's an infinite loop to make the program stop, a sort of fake way to end
10:42:46 <Keymaker> when does the program stop, by the way?
10:43:11 <Aardwolf> there's a close button and a menu in the interpreter to quit
10:43:28 <Keymaker> but no "terminate program" command?
10:43:50 <Keymaker> ok. i was already wondering why i couldn't find one
10:44:10 <Aardwolf> when I look back at the spec, the { and } commands are really weird, and I should have let it store the working color and working coordinates in the registers (and should have called the registers the memory instead :))
10:44:24 <Aardwolf> and I should have allowed memory of arbitrary size
10:47:58 <Aardwolf> I'm going to try to improve the gammaplex interpreter later, and will remove the memory limit then (but not now yet)
10:48:09 <Aardwolf> I mean, backwards compatibility isn't lost by removing the limit :)
10:49:21 <Aardwolf> by the way I really like the mandelbrot renderer code because it has a subroutine using gosub and return
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10:51:26 <Keymaker> i'll write a maze game in gammaplex
10:51:52 <jix> i'll write something cool in gammaplex
10:52:09 <jix> but first i'll complete the subskin wiki page
10:52:13 <Aardwolf> I'll write tetris or breakout when I have the time :)
10:52:45 <Aardwolf> tetris is in the suggestion list of gammaplex programs if I remember correctly :)
10:53:51 <Keymaker> snake/worm game would be nice too
10:54:40 <Aardwolf> or something like Elite!!!! :)
10:54:51 <Aardwolf> but that would probably be too slow :)
10:55:47 <Aardwolf> one of the first 3D space shooters, featuring wireframe ships, trading goods to earn money and buy better ships, pirates and so on :)
10:56:33 <jix> i'll port the TI 92+?/89/v200 pheonix (platinum)? game
10:56:51 <jix> its written in m68k asm
10:59:04 <Aardwolf> looks like a neat game http://www.ticalc.org/archives/files/ss/48/4815.gif
11:00:03 <jix> hmm but i can't read m68k asm..
11:01:16 <Keymaker> then you have to make a totally new one
11:01:17 <jix> but the game is the best game for ti calcs
11:01:19 <Aardwolf> but you can try to copy the gameplay
11:01:34 <jix> Aardwolf: yeah
11:02:23 <jix> but first i've to finish this stupid subskin wiki article
11:03:13 <jix> haha my friends always ask me what i'm going to do today and i always tell them i'm going to write programs the whole day..
11:03:56 <Aardwolf> I say something similar to my friends often too
11:05:13 <jix> i think they would be shocked if i say "i'm going somewhere to play football because the weather is nice" ;)
11:06:34 <Aardwolf> in brainfuck, if you type input and you type something of multiple letters, will each next , command in brainfuck use these next letters? (I'm just trying to figure out how the C getchar() command works in fact ;))
11:07:09 <jix> everything you write to STDIN is written to a buffer
11:07:19 <jix> its pushed to it
11:07:25 <jix> and getc shifts one char out
11:07:33 <jix> (queue not stack)
11:33:46 <Keymaker> by the way, is gammaplex file extension .txt?
11:33:56 <Keymaker> and, if you pop an empty stack, it returns 0?
11:39:34 <Aardwolf> hmm let me check the code for that last question
11:40:10 <Keymaker> nope, but i mean should i use .gpx on my site..
11:41:00 <Aardwolf> it's only a very little bit harder to open with a text editor :)
11:42:18 <Aardwolf> I implemented the gammaplex stack in a sort of weird way, but it'll probably return 0 unless it's memory is full
11:42:34 <Aardwolf> I hadn't discovered std::vectors back then hence the dumb memory limits and weird stack :)
11:47:56 <jix> done: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Subskin
11:52:40 <jix> Aardwolf: yes
11:52:55 <jix> but thats nothing special.. there were some OISC implementations before subskin
11:53:08 <jix> but i don't know any that uses my instruction
11:53:19 <Aardwolf> this certainly is short ruby code for an interpreter :)
11:54:22 <Aardwolf> but didn't my professor Object Oriented Programming warn us that one letter variable names are bad? :D
11:54:26 <jix> i had the subskin idea (and name!) a long time ago but never implemented it.. yesterday i searched a language for writing a super short interpreter for...
11:54:39 <jix> Aardwolf: haha
11:55:17 <Keymaker> i don't understand it fully however.. :\
11:55:38 <jix> i use them often in ruby... but only in a scope that has a length of... 1 line... ["h4","37"...].map{|i|i.hex} for example..
11:56:40 <Aardwolf> I use them often too, except in tasks for this professor heh
11:57:32 <jix> the only other name for i that would fit is iterator_variable... and thats too long because you need such kind of variables every 10th line
11:57:35 <Keymaker> aardwolf: the second rgb is 0 0 0 in the beginning in the gammaplex..?
11:58:28 <Aardwolf> You know what's sort of stupid, the gammaplex specification is based on the interpreter sometimes instead of the opposite
11:58:57 <jix> subskin is spec first...
12:00:02 <jix> the Hello, world! subskin example is self modifying...
12:01:12 <jix> every a-bit-more-complex subskin program has to use self modification
12:01:48 <Aardwolf> yeah the second color is initially 0 0 0 appearantly
12:02:21 <Aardwolf> that must make it pretty hard to program in :)
12:03:49 <jix> with a text editor it is
12:04:04 <jix> with a assembler like thing it's easier
12:04:55 <Aardwolf> hehe this is always fun, first write the complete interpreter in C++, when done, compile it for the first time and see how many errors there are
12:06:06 <Aardwolf> image based, and about as complex as befunge
12:06:22 <jix> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycelium
12:06:24 <Aardwolf> mycelium has something to do with mushrooms too btw :)
12:06:44 <Aardwolf> all befunge clones should have a mushroom like name ;)
12:07:27 <Aardwolf> now I gotta make some mycelium programs to see if the interpreter works correctly
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13:13:26 <Keymaker> aardwolf, does the 'i' command print the number to locations in x and y?
13:19:27 <Aardwolf> it's good that you ask those questions, it'll allow me to improve the spec some time
13:47:04 <pgimeno> jix, I have access to the repository
13:47:23 <Aardwolf> When typing something in console and pressing enter, is this enter character 10 or 13?
13:48:07 <pgimeno> 10 when getchar() receives it, but that happens in Unix only
13:48:30 <Aardwolf> I receive it with getchar(). How to make it platform independent?
13:48:34 <pgimeno> in Windows getchar() receives a 13 then a 10
13:49:01 <pgimeno> I think so, maybe jix can give a definitive answer
13:49:34 <Aardwolf> I wonder if Lost Kingdom checks for both 10's and 13's
13:50:10 <pgimeno> I think that the language specifications free you of those problems
13:51:42 <pgimeno> so even in Windows the language gets always 10 after a carriage return
13:51:48 <Aardwolf> I wonder if they did it on purpose, each choosing a different way to represent enter (mac, win and unix)
13:52:07 <Aardwolf> Now all that's missing is an OS that does 10 first and then 13 :rolleyes:
13:52:08 <pgimeno> I suppose there are historic reasons
13:52:36 <Aardwolf> is the reason that ascii was not well defined? I mean maybe the carriage return and newline thing was too confusing?
13:54:00 <pgimeno> yeah, that's probably the reason
14:02:07 <pgimeno> in some old typewriters a carriage return was to move the carriage horizontally and then you needed to press line feed, which rotated the drum
14:02:47 <pgimeno> there's not an end-of-line character well-defined in ASCII
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14:03:37 <pgimeno> the ZX Spectrum (a Z80-based micro) took CR as end-of-line too
14:04:26 <pgimeno> it's CP/M the one which took the CR/LF combination, later inherited by DOS
14:08:03 <jix> mac os 9 (oooold) uses 13 as return
14:08:11 <jix> mac os x uses 10
14:09:45 <pgimeno> which is like asking, would it be painful if Windows switched to 10 too?
14:10:33 <jix> pgimeno: mac os x is another system .. not the next version of mac os 9
14:10:42 <jix> so you can't compare it with windows
14:11:05 <jix> mac os x has some compatibility libs and binary loaders to allow the user to run some old apps
14:12:10 <jix> but mac os 9 was a really old kernel.. there was no command line no STDIN no STDOUT no posix at all cooperative multi tasking resource forks... mac os x is based on NextStep and BSD
14:13:47 <jix> mac os x uses the Mach kernel (mach started as a fork of the bsd kernel but got rewritten) used by Next. Most cli programs and parts of c libs are from BSD afaik and the whole Objc thing + Cocoa is just a newer version of NextStep
14:14:26 <jix> all cocoa classes start with NS for NextStep (NSWindows NSArray NSString NSDictionary....)
14:15:11 <jix> apple buyed next
14:15:23 <jix> some people say it was the other way around
14:16:44 <Aardwolf> I tried windows longhorn beta, and was wondering what was actually changed except a nerf in the file searching system
14:16:47 <jix> because steve jobs (one of the apple founders and ceo at some time and today) got fired by apple and founded Next.. Next had no money and apple buyed it... but steave jobs is now apple ceo and apples software is based on next...
14:16:54 <pgimeno> nice job the Subskin page, btw
14:17:06 <jix> so it was like NeXT buying apple
14:17:20 <jix> pgimeno: ah about the file archive
14:17:32 <jix> i'd like to submit my bfx.rb brainfuck interpreter
14:18:09 <jix> and i'd like to have write access too because i often write interpreters for languages
14:18:19 <pgimeno> except I'm having lunch right now
14:18:37 <pgimeno> do you know how to use svn?
14:21:23 <jix> i used it once to download source code.. seems to be pretty ease (not like cvs)
14:21:23 <pgimeno> it's very CVSish, just properly done
14:21:23 <jix> i know it works like cvs.. but cvs is not as easy as svn because of cryptic commands and and and...
14:21:23 <jix> if i see svn commands i can guess what they do
14:21:23 <jix> if i see cvs commands i just hope they don't act like rm -rf /
14:21:23 <pgimeno> anyway the cvs/svn up / cvs/svn commit cycle is similar in both
14:21:52 <jix> i want to learn how to use svn anyway
14:22:26 <pgimeno> it's easy enough for you, I guess
14:23:36 <pgimeno> meaning, I don't expect you having the trouble many people have with it
14:25:18 <jix> one thing i don't like about svn is that under osx it detects the UI language instead of don't finding a local and using english as default
14:25:24 <jix> i want gui in german
14:25:26 <jix> but cli in english
14:27:51 <jix> graue was active on the wiki yesterday but wasn't here yesterday...
14:28:31 <pgimeno> what are your locale settings? I use English CLI
14:28:41 <jix> i have no locale settings
14:28:54 <jix> it isn't set on mac os x by default
14:29:27 <jix> but svn is the first cli program that uses the gui lang if it doesn't find a locale
14:29:27 <pgimeno> then you can write a wrapprt
14:30:30 <jix> edited my environment.plist
14:35:13 <pgimeno> I'm ready, do you want me to upload the file?
14:47:02 <pgimeno> I've taken the code from the wiki (removing the LF) and I'm ready to commit
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14:50:18 <pgimeno> added cat.subskin and hello.subskin, ready to commit too
15:00:45 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: Lost Kingdom checks for and accepts both CR and LF for line endings
15:03:05 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: If the console returns CRLF or LFCR as a line ending the second byte is treated as a null command
15:11:47 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: RISC OS return 10 for Enter
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17:03:13 <Aardwolf> I'm busy testing and debugging the Mycelium interpreter
17:08:41 <Aardwolf> It's doing weird though, there are no floats and no doubles in my interpreter, yet I get a "Floating point exception"
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17:19:29 <nooga> anyone from London here?
17:27:37 * {^Raven^} is in Sheffield - not *that* far away
17:28:11 <jix> pgimeno: bfx.rb isn't on the wiki
17:28:15 <jix> but thanks for adding subskin
17:28:27 <nooga> i just saw the Battersea Power Station on Pink Floyd's cover
17:28:50 <jix> pgimeno: can i dcc bfx.rb to you?
17:28:54 <nooga> this building looks just awesome
17:32:34 <nooga> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9e/Battersea_Powerstation_-_Across_Thames_-_London_-_020504.jpg/800px-Battersea_Powerstation_-_Across_Thames_-_London_-_020504.jpg
17:41:17 <nooga> maximally surrealistic eh?
17:41:30 <nooga> i'd love to go there and make some photos
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17:48:23 <jix> i've written skasm (SubsKin ASseMbler).. it's a big ruby hack but it works
18:23:09 <pgimeno> jix: is subskin.rb an appropriate name?
18:24:30 <pgimeno> re bfx.rb: dcc is ok, what is it supposed to be?
18:26:01 <jix> bfx.rb is the shortest ruby brainfuck interpreter
18:26:08 <pgimeno> (dcc is ok as long as I'm not afk, of course)
18:26:09 <jix> and yes subskin.rb is the name i use
18:26:35 <pgimeno> so brainfuck/impl looks like a sensible place, right?
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18:34:17 <pgimeno> commited both - now you'll have to wait for the archive copy to be updated or look at the repository directly
18:38:10 <pgimeno> the direct link to the repository is http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/svn/esofiles/ but graue discourages using it
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20:20:21 <jix> my old hello world implementation was stupid...
20:22:42 <jix> graue was on the wiki today
20:22:47 <jix> why isn't he here?
20:23:56 <jix> he fixed my Subskin article
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20:24:56 <jix> hrhr it's good to have someone fixing the spelling/grammar of the wiki articles
20:32:38 <jix> here is a trace of the new hello world program: http://www.harderweb.de/jix/hello-world-trace.html
20:37:26 <Aardwolf> wow, that really is a trace...
20:38:32 <jix> it's useful for debugging
20:38:40 <jix> but i wrote all programs without it
20:38:52 <jix> but for my next program i need a trace
20:39:10 <jix> and an assembler
20:51:03 <jix> i have a routine for printing a number in reverse
21:11:35 <wildhalcyon> I don't really understand it, but it looks nice
21:11:57 <jix> i'm working at 99 bottles of beer
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21:38:07 <{^Raven^}> jix: you know that ruby, bf to c compiler you made
21:38:23 <jix> i should know it.. i made it
21:38:25 <{^Raven^}> did you ever manage to compile lostkingdom.c
21:38:41 <jix> i have no other c compiler than gcc on my machine
21:38:43 <jix> and gcc fails
21:38:48 <jix> because the stack is too small
21:39:06 <jix> and i removed all non-hw stack limits and set the hw stack to the highest possible value
21:39:12 <{^Raven^}> after two hours of compiling the machine terminally crashes
21:39:37 <jix> i get a "Stack size to small" error after 2 mins
21:40:22 <jix> if you have access to a linux machine http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/tcc/ may work for you
21:40:26 <{^Raven^}> mine takes 2 hours to mention the missing linefeed at the end of the file and soon after the machine explodes
21:41:21 <{^Raven^}> only the TCP/IP stack survives and I can't even shh in to kill gcc!
21:41:57 <{^Raven^}> i'm sure it works though, everything else has
21:44:36 <jix> port LK to subskin
21:45:04 <jix> without my assembler or tracer or interactive debugger
21:45:56 <jix> i'm done with the "N bottle[s] of beer" routine!
22:00:50 <jix> it works!!!
22:01:17 <jix> hmm it was a bad idea to trace all verses of 99 bottles of beer
22:02:06 <jix> 295 words 800 characters
22:02:50 <jix> it's 2 lines shorter than the output!
22:08:21 * {^Raven^} 's game is finished and uploaded to the competitions site :D
22:09:21 <{^Raven^}> The game is called 23:15 and the page is here: http://us.geocities.com/dunric/advcomp.html
22:10:13 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: (named after the first version of brainloller that compiled)
22:11:24 <jix> 99bob in subskin WORKS!
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22:31:18 <jix> moin calamari
22:31:27 <jix> i wrote 99bob in subskin
22:31:33 <jix> (you know subskin?)
22:31:45 <calamari> jix: your project yesterday got me thinking about a minimal tc implementation
22:32:00 <jix> subskin is my OISC implementation
22:32:08 <jix> the result of my project from yesterday
22:32:19 <jix> ahh there's a bug in 99bob
22:32:41 <calamari> how many bytes did it end up as?
22:33:11 <jix> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Subskin
22:34:05 <calamari> I'm curious what the smallest tc interpreter I can make for ms-dos x86
22:34:28 <calamari> maybe oisc is the way to go, but maybe not
22:34:49 <jix> imo subskin is the best oisc instruction
22:35:43 <calamari> I always remember subtract and branch if borrow
22:35:55 <jix> i have no branch in the instruction
22:36:02 <jix> but a memory mapped IP
22:36:15 <jix> you can do more calculations without stupid branching
22:36:57 <jix> if you don't know if the result is negative or not you just put a nop-like instruction after it
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22:38:00 <Aardwolf> {^Raven^}: cool, good luck with the competition
22:38:07 <jix> calamari: memory mapped
22:38:10 <jix> see the wiki page
22:40:24 <{^Raven^}> calamari: finally finished my game! it's on the competition site now
22:45:51 <calamari> for some reason that reminds me of monsters inc.. 23-19!! :)
22:46:00 <Aardwolf> 2315.exe in Wine sais: invalid channel at line 10, and every command I try is either Syntax Error or a Mistake
22:46:11 <Aardwolf> or is it part of the puzzle :)
22:49:09 <jix> i can't eat myself!
22:49:41 <jix> under my pc emulator it works
22:50:27 <Aardwolf> Wine must not be that good, I wonder if Dosbox could run it?
22:50:46 <Aardwolf> (actually wine has been having poor results on almost any program I tried :s)
22:51:35 <jix> you could try a risc-os emulator
22:51:49 <Aardwolf> This program can not be run in DOS mode
22:51:59 <jix> http://www.redsquirrel.fsnet.co.uk/
22:53:31 <calamari> I ran it from the command line rather than from the gui
22:54:12 <Aardwolf> ah maybe it didn't find the data file
22:54:41 <jix> i'm in this silly tube and can't do anything... :(
22:55:03 <Aardwolf> It sais I'm very hungry, but if I type eat it sais I'm not that hungry :)
22:55:16 <Aardwolf> by the way is the font only this screwed up in my wine?
22:55:28 <jix> calamari: ouch i typed eat tueb
22:55:57 <calamari> hmm weird.. wine lost focus and now I can't type.. need to restart
22:56:11 <Aardwolf> lol I have the choice between hungry or tired
22:56:25 <jix> Aardwolf: no...
22:56:47 <Aardwolf> the font is only barely readable in my wine, default settings afaik
22:56:48 <jix> The chamber door opens.
22:57:25 <Aardwolf> ouch wine lost focus on me too, after typing "rest", so don't type it
22:57:45 <calamari> sounds like whatever emulator he used wasn't up to the challenge :)
22:58:40 <Aardwolf> darn, can't go n, e, s, w, u, d
22:58:51 <jix> the door is open but i cant go through it
22:59:12 <calamari> whoohoo! got the door open, need to save :)
22:59:31 <jix> lol i type: b and it says: violence is not the answer
22:59:42 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: It's an issue with wine, the CSD is not set correctly and the program cannot find the data file
23:00:02 <Aardwolf> yeah it's solved if you open it from console :)
23:00:03 <calamari> oops, doesn't look like it can save under wine
23:00:12 <Aardwolf> wine isn't really too great :(
23:01:49 <jix> {^Raven^}: i opened the door but i can't walk through it
23:02:06 <jix> i don't know the command
23:02:30 <Aardwolf> it really understands a lot of commands :)
23:03:07 <jix> try break *
23:03:36 <calamari> aha, look = room description, examine = look at something in particular
23:03:43 <Aardwolf> hmm what was again this secret 6 letter word of Zork?
23:04:06 <calamari> might be helpful.. was trying "look at"
23:04:47 <jix> it was xyzzy
23:04:56 <{^Raven^}> When the game dies with a invalid channel error, type: *cd z:\home\<path to 2315.exe>
23:06:05 <jix> nothing happens if i type xyzzy BUT it understands the command
23:07:00 <calamari> hmm maybe I can steal a card off that dead guy
23:07:16 <jix> i get tons of Mistake msgs now
23:07:20 <Aardwolf> I think we found a clue to one of the secrets :)
23:07:51 <jix> i answered with >n to Play again
23:07:57 <jix> instead of just
23:08:18 <{^Raven^}> jix, hte game has exit, type RUN to begin again
23:08:33 <jix> {^Raven^}: i'm not using wine
23:08:43 <jix> {^Raven^}: i'm using a complete pc emulator with win xp
23:08:54 <jix> because wine needs a x86 cpu
23:09:09 <jix> virtual pc (comercial)
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23:09:14 <{^Raven^}> if you end up exiting the game without closing the window type RUN to begin again
23:10:05 <calamari> raven: cool game, I'll have to play it again when I have more time and from qemu where it should be more reliable :)
23:10:48 <Aardwolf> debugging Mycelium is very annoying, even tho the syntax is easy, writing code in a painting program is hellish :p
23:10:58 <jix> wildhalcyon: i wrote 99bob in subskin!
23:11:34 <jix> its 2 lines shorter than the output
23:12:09 <jix> output: 297 lines 11756 bytes, program: 296 lines 786 lines
23:12:20 <jix> there are many 1 char lines
23:12:28 <jix> most lines are 2 chars
23:12:33 <jix> and some are 3 chars
23:13:11 <jix> and i wrote an improved hello world version
23:13:27 <jix> and a trace program: http://www.harderweb.de/jix/hello-world-trace.html (sample output)
23:13:55 <jix> and an assembler (used in 99bob.. cat and hw are written 100% by hand)
23:16:12 <wildhalcyon> Im trying to wrestle with the topology issues in my lang before I write the spec & interpreter; then I'll write a roguelike
23:17:43 <wildhalcyon> see, I encourage everyone to write games in there languages
23:19:06 <jix> hmm but what game
23:19:47 <calamari> in a language without i/o, how is the result of the computation expressed?
23:23:21 <calamari> jix: btw, how does skip() work? is it possible to form an endless loop with it?
23:28:20 <jix> a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i .. if subskin a,b,c skips the next instruction is g,h,i if it doesn't skip the next instruction is d,e,f
23:28:48 <calamari> is it possible to get back to a,b,c?
23:28:59 <jix> of course.. IP is memory mapped
23:29:14 <jix> you can branch everywhere by setting the IP to any adress
23:30:59 <calamari> I wonder if a lang could be tc if it was allowed to contain only a single loop
23:31:36 <jix> i'm trying to trace the whole execution of 99bob
23:32:13 <jix> im at 92 and the trace is > 10mb
23:33:33 <jix> it's going to be > 100mb
23:33:47 <jix> 80 bottles left 32mv
23:34:12 <calamari> hmm, perhaps I can answer this by construction with a dfa.. if a dfa with only one loop is still a dfa, I'd bet all is ok
23:35:11 <calamari> need to define loop more precisely tho
23:35:53 <jix> there may be only one place where the IP is allowed to move in reverse direction
23:36:33 <calamari> jix: it'd be a state with more than one transition to it
23:37:23 <calamari> so states would only be allowed to have a single transition to them, except the start state which is allowed two
23:37:55 <jix> code_a;if(bla){code_b};code_c
23:37:59 <jix> no loop right?
23:38:24 <jix> there is a code_a => code_c transition and a code_b => code_c transition
23:38:59 <jix> a loop less code is a code where there is no way to enter a state after it was entered once
23:39:26 <jix> 104mb 38bottles left
23:42:09 <jix> most browser have problems with 160mb of html?
23:43:03 <calamari> ahh, drawing out a transition table helps
23:43:29 <calamari> each transition that doesn't result in a loop is a transition to a state that has not yet been seen
23:44:08 <jix> no... it's the same thing you said before...
23:44:56 <calamari> jix: the exit state of the if and else parts go to the same state but it has not yet been seen
23:45:12 <calamari> jix: however, the start state has been seen
23:45:28 <jix> but i think my definition is simpler
23:45:28 <calamari> so transitioning to it is a loop
23:45:46 <calamari> jix: neither definition is quite there yet..
23:46:07 <jix> i define a loop as a code that gets executed multiple times
23:46:22 <jix> and my definition of a loop less code makes that impossible
23:46:23 <calamari> there is no such thing as "code" in a dfa tho :)
23:46:32 <calamari> it's all states and transitions
23:46:37 <jix> replace code by state+transition
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00:06:12 <Aardwolf> Is it possible the wiki is down?
00:11:25 <Aardwolf> too bad, oh well here's mycelium: http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/mycelium/
00:13:52 <Aardwolf> the spec is at the bottom of main.cpp
00:14:16 <grim_> I like decimal.png in particular, but I can't read what it says on my monitor
00:14:37 <Aardwolf> it lets you type anything with getchar, and it'll convert it to an integer
00:14:55 <Aardwolf> subtracting ascii value 48, ignoring non-number chars, doing the multiplications with 10 and so on
00:15:43 <Aardwolf> it's a subroutine that can be used in other mycelium programs
00:15:56 <Aardwolf> because you can go to it with gosub, and the goto's and gosubs in the subroutine itself are all relative
00:22:50 * {^Raven^} get's a sniper rifle ready for the next person who advocates spaghetti coding
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00:26:53 <jix> in asm you have to use gotos/jumps/brnaches
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00:31:30 <jix> i'm using 18 gotos in 99bob
00:35:22 <Aardwolf> though not as great as gosub return
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00:37:46 * wildhalcyon advocates non-deterministic spaghetti coding
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01:07:48 * {^Raven^} hasn't needed a goto or gosub for over a decade
01:10:06 <Aardwolf> programming in mycelium is hard without using them
01:12:34 <Aardwolf> and the alternative (2D loops) is real spaghetti :D
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01:58:54 <calamari> I've gotten closer to being able to mirror the wiki.. had to strip some stuff out of the sql dump, but it imported.. didn't work to change my wiki tho.
01:59:13 <calamari> seems to be a very tricky thing to mirror a dump
04:18:58 <wildhalcyon> Anyone know where the java BF interpreter is?
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05:01:30 <calamari> wildhalcyon: still looking for a java bf interp?
05:15:30 <wildhalcyon> hard to find, and Im not sure that Im crazy about it
05:15:48 <wildhalcyon> Im tired, so my brain isn't working properly
05:16:07 <wildhalcyon> I want to write an exponentiation function that works appropriately (meaning that 0 still outputs 1)
05:17:16 <wildhalcyon> I suppose I could do it with BFBasic, but that's no fun
05:17:29 <lament> seems fairly easy to do
05:17:36 <lament> start with 1 and keep multiplying
05:17:41 <wildhalcyon> It should be, but again... tired, brain not working right
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06:17:59 <calamari> got the wiki dump imported and working
06:26:17 <calamari> http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/mediawiki/
06:26:47 <calamari> I'm setting up http://esowiki.kidsquid.com/
06:39:16 <calamari> actually esolang.kidsquid.com is better
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08:02:01 <calamari> well, it should be ready.. we'll see if it stays up to date :)
08:02:28 <calamari> I diabled editing and changed the logo so it shouldn't be confused for the main site
08:43:27 <calamari> blah, mistyped the forwarding url, so it'll take a little longer for http://esolang.kidsquid.com/ to work
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09:52:38 <jix> the license on the esolang wiki mirror is wrong
10:31:02 <jix> muahahaha a subskin quine
10:32:27 <Aardwolf> no kidding, well, if there's only 1 command, the output of such quine would look pretty simple, am i rite?
10:35:10 <Aardwolf> Is it allowed to make a joke language that I put on the wiki, without any external resources?
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11:02:38 <Aardwolf> How do you like this joke language: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Unary
11:05:46 <jix> i submitted my 99bob to 99-bottles-of-beer.net
11:06:37 <jix> not reviewed yet
11:07:04 <jix> i couldn't decide if i choose the category Esoteric Language or Assembler language
11:14:47 <Aardwolf> is there hardware that runs your language?
12:00:31 <{^Raven^}> (a minor update of the win version of my game is on the comp page)
12:01:09 <Aardwolf> what's updated? something to make it run better in wine?
12:01:12 <{^Raven^}> (if anyone fancies sending in a review and voting that would be cool)
12:01:33 <Aardwolf> {^Raven^}: I'm sorry I'd like to but I'm leaving on a vacation tomorrow so I won't have the time
12:01:37 <{^Raven^}> no, just disables escape key and closes window on normal game termination
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12:11:44 <Keymaker> jix: can't wait to see subskin entry at 99bob.net
12:11:51 <Keymaker> seems they've made some differences there as well
12:11:59 <Keymaker> trigger is categorized in 'real language' x)
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12:24:14 <Keymaker> kipple: i'm sorry i've been very busy, so haven't had time to plan the language
12:24:14 <tokigun> Keymaker: do you know hunt the wumpus in brainfuck?
12:24:42 <Keymaker> kipple: but when having more spare time, let's continue :)
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12:57:16 <Keymaker> i did a small update on my website
12:57:27 <Keymaker> added gammaplex and esowiki category
12:57:38 <Keymaker> did some small updated and removed firefox button
12:57:43 <Keymaker> i don't like that browser anymore
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17:49:38 <grim_> should it be (IP+1) + 1
17:50:25 <Keymaker> i'm confused about this.. i thought program and memory use the same array
17:51:27 <Keymaker> but sometimes the spec tells about ip and sometimes about pp
17:51:41 <Keymaker> instruction pointer and memory pointer
17:51:58 <Keymaker> well, whatever.. :) FWD and BAK are useless
17:58:40 <grim_> you will not like Mneme then
17:59:46 <Keymaker> i don't mind that kind of jumps but since one don't need to use them in this language i won't
18:04:37 <Keymaker> is there any way one could make the python program write the output to some file?
18:04:43 <Keymaker> (i mean without changing the program source)
18:07:31 <Keymaker> btw, i invented nice l33t tweak; run this program:
18:07:32 <Keymaker> 0u7pU7s 5tR1nG "j00 4r3 teh 5ux0r".
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20:25:23 <jix> i'm done with my quine.. have to do some optimizations now
20:50:54 <jix> ok i'm really done now (it works)
20:52:47 <pgimeno> I read "1801 lines" and wondered how was it possible that there are less bytes than lines
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21:14:00 <jix> http://www.harderweb.de/jix/quine2.subskin (tmp url)
21:14:16 <jix> all \n's are significant (the last too)
21:16:07 <jix> tomorrow i'm going to shorten it
21:16:14 <jix> but i have to sleep now
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00:18:34 <Aardwolf> I'm off on a vacation, cya later
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19:27:50 <graue> hey jix, can I add quine2.subskin to The Esoteric Files Archive?
19:53:19 <calamari> graue: do you know how to disallow new users on the wiki?
19:53:54 <calamari> graue: no reason for people to try to create user accounts on the mirror, since I disabled editing :)
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20:20:13 <graue> heh, your mirror still claims to be under the FDL
20:22:22 <calamari> graue: yeah, not sure how to change that
20:22:46 <graue> it's in LocalSettings.php somewhere
20:22:51 <calamari> graue: the main wiki was down when I was setting up the mirror a lot time ago, so I had to guess at the license
20:25:11 <calamari> could you please paste the info you have? it's at the very end of the file
20:29:30 <graue> $wgRightsUrl = "http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain/";
20:29:30 <graue> $wgRightsText = "Public Domain"
20:29:30 <graue> $wgRightsIcon = "${wgStylePath}/common/images/norights.png";
20:29:46 <graue> you'll have to copy norights.png (I got it from creative commons' website)
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20:33:50 <graue> here's my localsettings.php with some stuff expunged that looked like it needed to be expunged for security reasons: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/LocalSettings.txt
20:34:07 <graue> you might also need to copy the namespaces stuff near the end to get the EsoShell namespace to work
20:34:41 <calamari> graue: is your LocalSettings.php world readable? had to do that to mine, otherwise pages didn't work
20:36:13 <graue> yeah, I guess it is
20:36:27 <graue> but if you go to it in a browser it just says "MEDIAWIKI not defined, this is not a valid entry point"
20:55:22 <jix> graue: yeah but name the file quine1.subskin
20:55:44 <jix> it's called quine2 due to my quine-bootstrapping cycle
21:02:10 <jix> lol? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Searching
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23:11:01 <{^Raven^}> it would have been nice to see your game in the comp, only three days to go before closing and eight to find out the winner :)
23:11:32 * {^Raven^} thinks that this is not strictly esoteric related unless you've seen the source!
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03:00:57 <wildhalcyon> Do you think a stack-less funge varient would convince funge programmers to use programming space storage more?
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14:55:30 <grim_> http://oldpeculiar.org/~grim/Mneme/
14:55:39 <grim_> Mneme first draft and interpreter
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18:45:51 <jix> i'm going to implement subski/128 in hardware
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03:10:09 <cpressey> twobitsprite: the one you write yourself
03:22:15 <wildhalcyon> Im not familiar with any standards in place for BF microprocessors
03:22:37 <wildhalcyon> I have heard of a BF cgi script.. but that could have been all in my head.
03:24:43 <twobitsprite> cpressey: hehe, funny you should say that, as I am in the process of doing so :)
03:52:33 <{^Raven^}> wildhalcyon: there are a few CGI scripts written in BF on my website
04:27:23 <{^Raven^}> i'll get around to finishing the how-to artickes one day
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13:56:00 <jix> it's online! http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-subskin-868.html
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20:37:39 * P_Lenz settles in for a while
20:40:02 <puzzlet> it's past midnight in Korea
20:41:06 <P_Lenz> Just figured I'd say hi since I'm working on an Esolang right now
20:46:57 <jix> P_Lenz: cool, tell us more about it
20:47:26 <P_Lenz> 1 That it use Counting principle mathmatics
20:47:45 <P_Lenz> 2 That there should be difference between code and data
20:48:07 <P_Lenz> 3 That there should be no possible way to cause an error
20:49:00 <P_Lenz> So rather then entering 3 you'd have to enter ... (where . is an arbitrary character)
20:49:01 <jix> 3. is easy.. just call it "undefined behavior" instead of error ;)
20:49:56 <P_Lenz> No I mean, you can enter any random ASCII text string it would be valid code and will be executed
20:51:00 <P_Lenz> A simple program, this one will copy a piece of data
20:51:22 <P_Lenz> which will result in "."."."
20:51:28 <jix> ah not cat
20:52:01 <P_Lenz> program "cat" will print the string "cat" to the screen
20:52:25 <jix> cat will print its input to the screen
20:53:16 <P_Lenz> : copys the next data that follows it
20:53:22 <P_Lenz> ~ erases the next data
20:55:46 <jix> cat is not a quine..
20:55:46 <jix> hmm if cat is a language then all cat programs are quines...
20:55:46 <jix> echo "Blaaa" > quine.cat;cat quine.cat
20:55:46 <P_Lenz> Once a program has no remaing character that are executable
20:55:46 <P_Lenz> that line is released as output
20:58:23 <P_Lenz> It's hard to explain as it as a langauge is fundimentaly different from everything else outther
20:58:23 <P_Lenz> (that I know of atleast)
20:58:23 <jix> hmm maybe it's a bit like thue but i don't know enough about your lang to compare it
20:59:32 <P_Lenz> I really whould right a readme to expalin this
20:59:47 <P_Lenz> Every command is one letter long
21:00:36 <P_Lenz> Commands all call data, which are defined as any individual character that is not a command or any set of characters between quites
21:01:12 <P_Lenz> so kk is two datum while "kk" is only one
21:01:53 <P_Lenz> so if you run the program :kk the result is kkk
21:02:09 <P_Lenz> but if you run the program :"kk" the result is "kk""kk"
21:03:20 <P_Lenz> all commands rewrite the source program they are in
21:03:58 <P_Lenz> So in the program :kk the command : get the next datum k and replaces itself with a copy of that datum
21:04:33 <P_Lenz> if the program ~kk is run the result is just k
21:05:17 <P_Lenz> because the command ~ found the next datum and erased it then erased itself from the program
21:05:36 <P_Lenz> After every command execution starts again at the first character
21:06:02 <P_Lenz> so in the program ~:kk the result is kk
21:06:42 <P_Lenz> when it was executing ~looked to get the next character which was a command so it did not execute
21:07:21 <P_Lenz> : then executed (as it was the next char) and resulted in the program being rewritten as ~kkk
21:07:53 <P_Lenz> execution then return the the first character ~ which erased the datum
21:08:22 <P_Lenz> where k is an arbitrary character
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22:15:33 <jix> The 1st esoteric prime number:
22:15:35 <jix> $>.sync=m=\"\000\";j=0;eval$<.read.tr(x='^[]+><,.-',\"\").gsub(/./){%w{while m[j]>0 end m[j]+=1 (j+=1)>=m.size&&m<<0 j-=1 m[j]=STDIN.getc||0 putc m[j]\nm[j]-=1}[x.index($&)-1]+\";\"}# [
22:16:01 <jix> (big-endian number (base 256 (ascii encoded))
22:17:25 <grim_> not installed *shrug*
22:17:35 <jix> it's a ruby brainfuck interpreter wrapped in a prime number
22:17:51 <jix> i'm generating a Prime certificate atm
22:18:57 <jix> i made a paste error
22:19:09 <jix> $>.sync=m="";j=0;eval$<.read.tr(x='^[]+><,.-',"").gsub(/./){%w{while m[j]>0 end m[j]+=1 (j+=1)>=m.size&&m<<0 j-=1 m[j]=STDIN.getc||0 putc m[j]
22:19:10 <jix> m[j]-=1}[x.index($&)-1]+";"}# [
22:20:12 <jix> hmm maybe i did some more mistakes
22:20:28 <pgimeno> be sure before obtaining the certificate :)
22:35:22 <jix> a prime certificate are some computable numbers that prove that some number is prime
22:35:37 <jix> there are programs that calculate them
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01:41:05 <twobitsprite> so I need to implement a loop stack of sorts...
01:41:21 <kipple> you're writing an interpreter?
01:41:31 <kipple> you don't need a loop stack
01:41:58 <kipple> you can just move the instruction pointer forwards/backwards to the corresponding [/]
01:42:42 <twobitsprite> well... if I have "[...[...]...]" and I'm at the right-most ']' I need to know where the corresponding '[' which would be the left-most...
01:43:11 <twobitsprite> I suppose could count the ']'s and do it that way, but I don't see how that's any easier...
01:43:33 <kipple> but feel free to use a stack
01:43:47 <twobitsprite> I'm writing it in ocaml, and using lists to store the program... it's easier to just keep a stack
01:43:57 <kipple> a stack should be more efficient as well
01:44:06 <twobitsprite> it's a direct jump that way, I don't have to traverse backwards...
01:44:08 <kipple> as you can jump directly to the right address
01:45:38 <kipple> you're welcome. and good luck :)
01:46:01 <kipple> can't remember which that one is though
01:46:14 <kipple> there are so many bf-like languages
01:46:58 <twobitsprite> its the one where the program resides in one array, and the data in the other, and there is a new operation '@' (or something) which causes the arrays to change locations so that now you are executing from the data array, or something
01:47:24 <twobitsprite> I can't find much about it, but it seems like a fun one, I'm just trying to figure out how it would work...
01:47:27 <lament> twobitsprite: another way is to keep a dictionary
01:47:32 <lament> of all loop starts and ends
01:47:41 <lament> so that you look up where to jump to
01:48:08 <lament> the dictionary is only built once when the program is loaded.
01:48:19 <lament> this might be faster, i'm not sure
01:48:29 <twobitsprite> lament: that might be good... it would optimize larger programs better than small ones though, because you have an extra scanning pass at the beginning of execution...
01:48:49 <lament> but small programs are fast anyhow :)
01:49:01 <lament> besides, who writes small programs in BF anymore ;)
01:49:06 <twobitsprite> and I'll probably be dealing with fairly large programs...
01:49:14 <kipple> well, if you scan the programs before execution there are of course a lot of optimizations you *could* do...
01:49:41 <twobitsprite> kipple: i.e. remove superfluous commands, i.e. "+-" etc...
01:49:56 <kipple> merging ++++++++++++++++ into a singe instruction
01:50:13 <lament> twobitsprite: also, [->>+++<<] gets optimized into a single instruction, hopefully
01:50:18 <kipple> and swapping [-] with A[P]=0
01:50:21 <lament> and any other expression of that form
01:51:09 <twobitsprite> indeed... this is slowing becoming a larger project, but much more interesting... I might have to do some of this... :)
01:51:31 <lament> the effect is very very noticeable, btw
01:51:56 <twobitsprite> btw, fyi, I'm using brainfuck to implement genetic algorithms :) I.e. bf programs will be randomly generated, executed and "bred"/etc... :)
01:52:16 <kipple> brainfuck is very nice for that purpose :)
01:52:33 <twobitsprite> I figured it would be at least fun/interesting :)
01:52:51 <twobitsprite> I was thinking about using OISC, but bf seemed more fun to implement...
01:53:06 <kipple> then I see why you want a very efficient interpreter :)
01:53:36 <lament> optimizing brainfuck past the things already mentioned is quite a challenge
01:53:50 <twobitsprite> I plan on having thousands of these programs running at a time, competing round-robbin :)
01:54:06 <lament> hm, that might be slow :)
01:54:35 <twobitsprite> it will... but I also plan to have this distributed, a la SETI@home...
01:54:39 <kipple> that's normal for genetic algorithms
01:55:23 <kipple> have you seen this, by the way?
01:55:23 <kipple> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/FukYorBrane
01:55:50 <twobitsprite> kipple: well, not many do an actual round-robbin... most do double or single elimination because it's easier, but you also run the risk of premature convergance that way...
01:57:45 <twobitsprite> ahh, sorry, gnome-terminal doesn't interpret a \n as whitespace in URLs, and appended the timestamp from the next line onto it...
01:58:31 <twobitsprite> lol... that's awesome... I'll have to start hacking that
01:58:45 <kipple> unfortunately it seems like the homepage is down
01:59:43 <twobitsprite> I'm assuming by "bomb" they mean stops executing somehow?
02:00:21 <kipple> IIRC a program is terminated if the IP reaches a certain instruction
02:04:12 <kipple> anyway, doing some genetic programming with an esolang has been something that I've wanted to try myself, but it's on the list of unfulfilled hobby projects ;)
02:33:05 <twobitsprite> can someone cite an example of a "post canonical system"?
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03:01:30 <wildhalcyon> The whole goal of my language design is to implement a genetic "digital organism" scenario for a fungeoid
03:03:54 <wildhalcyon> a braintwist corewars simulation would be cool, but Im not sure how they would fare in a genetic organism sense.
03:08:53 <wildhalcyon> Also, Im afraid I can't give any good definitions of post canonical systems, but there are a couple nice esolangs that implement tag systems
03:20:27 <cpressey> wildhalcyon: which would those be?
03:20:27 <wildhalcyon> I know fundamentally its based on semi-thue grammar
03:20:27 <wildhalcyon> Hmm, now I feel humbled, not finding any tag system languages. I swear I remember reading at least one spec that mentions tag systems
03:23:20 * twobitsprite is overwhelmed by the jargon, maybe I should spend a day meditating on the esolang wiki...
03:23:42 <kipple> hehe. you're not the only one
03:24:25 <twobitsprite> I'm still trying to grok "functor" and have only a cursory understanding of "monad"...
03:24:51 <wildhalcyon> Hmm. I'll have to say I have NO idea what the heck a functor is.. I'll google it
03:25:28 <twobitsprite> wildhalcyon: check out the core language manual for OCaml, they talk about modules and functors quite a bit...
03:26:16 <twobitsprite> http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml/manual018.html
03:26:58 <twobitsprite> but maybe you'd have to understand OCaml to get anything useful out of that
03:29:23 <kipple> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functor
03:29:25 <wildhalcyon> Well, I guess that helps me understand functors in a more applicative setting
03:30:22 <wildhalcyon> the wikipedia entry scared me. I generally get scared when I see "abelian groups" mentioned anywhere
03:31:40 <twobitsprite> "A group for which the elements commute (i.e., AB==BA for all elements A and B) is called an Abelian group. "
03:32:14 <wildhalcyon> Well, not necessarily. I understand abelian groups themselves.. but when they're MENTIONED. I just dont like group theory much
03:32:37 <twobitsprite> ahh... I just want to know the difference between group theory and set theory...
03:33:17 <wildhalcyon> I believe groups have a structure to the elements. In set theory the order of the elements don't matter, correct?
03:33:55 * twobitsprite hopes that "?" is rhetorical, lest you be asking the wrong person...
03:34:29 <cpressey> a group = a set plus an operation on that set
03:34:31 <twobitsprite> although, I seem to remember something about that in my descrete math class I took, so you might be right...
03:34:42 <wildhalcyon> It was rhetorical in the sense that you don't need to answer it, but I can't really tell you what is correct
03:34:46 <cpressey> and the operation has to fulfil certain properties
03:36:44 <cpressey> i've been reading some weird stuff about finite automata as semigroups lately... it's pretty strange. you can do linear algebra on regexps if you try hard enough :)
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03:40:30 <wildhalcyon> Chris, I have to admit, you come up with good language names
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04:05:28 <cpressey> wildhalcyon: well, you have to treat alternation (a|b) as addition, and concatenation (ab) as multiplication, and you can solve sets of simultaneous equations of the form X = CX + Y where X, C, and Y are regular expressions
04:24:02 <wildhalcyon> It seems like everything is turing complete nowadays
04:24:43 <wildhalcyon> I guess regex's arent TC, but they can solve linear algebra systems
04:26:33 <wildhalcyon> Oh well, me and my fractured rib are calling it a night. G'night!
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04:42:30 <twobitsprite> what would one have to add to regexps to make them TC?
04:49:27 <lament> the easiest thing is to be able to reapply a regex
04:49:56 <lament> i mean, reapply a substitution
04:50:06 <lament> i.e. running a substitution in a loop until it fails to match anything is TC
04:50:22 <lament> but that's probably not what you meant :)
04:50:58 <lament> (actually, i'm not sure about this. hrm)
04:50:59 <twobitsprite> well... running a sub in a loop would simply be a compiler, in which case the thing you are applying the regex to is the actual language, right?
04:51:25 <lament> not sure how that would be a compiler.
04:51:35 <lament> compilers produce code of some sort.
04:52:16 <twobitsprite> but I would imagine that the "code" being produced is the state the string you're applying this to after each step of the process, no?
04:53:42 <twobitsprite> the rexeg would have to have some way to modify itself or at least create new regex to be applied, no?
04:54:03 <twobitsprite> otherwise regex is just a recursive function being applied to its output...
04:56:16 <twobitsprite> I guess the problem is, regex can't branch really...
04:59:46 <twobitsprite> one article on slash-dot (not that they can always be trusted) says that Perl's regex _is_ turing complete... but I think that might just be because you can embed Perl expressions in regex...
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06:38:47 <Arrogant> The channel always this jumpin'?
06:40:28 <twobitsprite> you missed our discussion about turing-complete regexps... :P
06:44:15 <Arrogant> Somehow I think it's against all that BF stands for.
06:46:36 <Arrogant> also, turing-complete regexps... isn't that what Perl is all about :D
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06:54:26 <lament> brainfuck with functions? there's several.
07:00:27 <Arrogant> There're too many variations to count.
07:00:33 <Arrogant> I just felt like making my own.
07:01:15 <lament> i beg you to reconsider :)
07:01:50 <Arrogant> Uses a real parser to do it too XD
07:02:17 <Arrogant> It's probably the most flexible Brainfuck, at least.
07:03:11 <lament> you should use words as tokens, then.
07:03:35 <Arrogant> That'd take a change in a couple lines of code
07:03:39 <lament> begin subtract left add left add right right end
07:03:56 <nooga> macro brainfuck lol :D
07:05:12 <nooga> i just thought about macros in brainfuck :>
07:05:41 <Arrogant> I think there're a couple of those
07:06:14 <nooga> Arrogant: what esolang is your favourite?
07:07:24 <Arrogant> {zero:[-]} /* Sets cell to 0 */ ++++{zero}! /* Outputs 0 */
07:08:17 <Arrogant> A function is passed a NEW memory array, with the current cell's value in cell 0 of that array.
07:08:59 <Arrogant> On call, the current cell is set to the value of tempContext.mem[tempContext.pointer]
07:09:18 <Arrogant> I'll probably make macros too, would take minimal effort.
07:18:55 <Arrogant> Hmm. I seem to be hitting some nasty STOP DOING ANYTHING with this
07:26:37 <lament> my favourite esolang is smetana :(
07:35:04 <nooga> my favourite is SADOL ;p
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14:16:32 <kipple> fine thank you. and you?
14:20:34 <wildhalcyon> My university made a fantastic decision to turn down my loan however... so Im scrambling for funding
14:22:29 <wildhalcyon> I'll survive. I just bought a new used car though, so I've got some additional expenses to worry about this year
14:23:31 <kipple> ah, the US. so you get loans form your universities?
14:24:31 <wildhalcyon> Yes. They gave me one loan, but they're definition of my budget << my definition of my budget, so I decided to take out an additional private student loan through my bank
14:24:57 <wildhalcyon> Apparently, in order for the bank to award the loan, it has to go through a certification process through my school.
14:25:26 <wildhalcyon> The school not only refused to certify the loan (on the basis that my budget didn't need it), but they also failed to tell both my bank AND me about this non-certification
14:26:52 <wildhalcyon> So I have to find another way of getting some money for school
14:27:51 <wildhalcyon> Anyhow, rather than live in this world of funding and part-time jobs, I escape to the world of esolangs. Trying to find ways to make SMETANA TC and Wang Tile background patterns for CAs
14:30:17 <wildhalcyon> They're related problems. I didn't know it was an issue, until I started looking for ways to implement an inifinite, but varied, background topology for my fungoid (or is it fungeoid?)
14:30:36 <kipple> I think it is fungeoid
14:31:05 <kipple> though I don't think you'll find it in the dictionary
14:31:07 <wildhalcyon> Okay. I dont expect to see it in Merriam-Webster or Oxford soon.. hmm, maybe I should submit the words to the OED for the next printing? ;-)
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14:33:42 <wildhalcyon> Alright folks, its been fun, but I unfortunately have to head to class.
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17:23:56 <jix> moin wildhalcyon
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00:20:38 <wildhalcyon> Does anyone understand how Wang Tiles are TC? Is it just because of the halting problem?
00:21:13 * kipple doesn't even know what a Wang Tile is....
00:22:25 <wildhalcyon> Its a square tile with a specific coupling on either face.
00:24:32 <wildhalcyon> Hmm, I guess the page answered my question with the phrase "It is possible to translate any Turing machine into a set of Wang tiles, such that the Wang tiles can tile the plane if and only if the Turing machine will never halt."
00:24:57 <wildhalcyon> Not exactly clear on how the translation might go about. I wonder if it is possible to translate brainfuck into a set of wang tiles?
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05:05:41 <twobitsprite> anyone here know OCaml, and care to help me debug my BF interpreter? I'm having some very frustrating problems that I can't for the life of me figure out...
05:08:51 <Arrogant> I had been meaning to learn O'Caml but had never gotten around to it
05:10:23 <twobitsprite> it's a very fun/interesting language, though proving difficult in raw byte processing a la BF...
05:15:51 <Arrogant> I've been using Python for my interpreters.
05:21:16 <twobitsprite> python is nice... the string manipulation is much more intuitive in python, although appearantly OCaml is great for compilers, I just haven't been able to grok thier built-in parser type yet...
05:24:43 <Arrogant> You should try out pyparsing sometime.
05:24:48 <Arrogant> That is some intensely intuclass BrainfunkError (Exception): pass
05:24:48 <Arrogant> """Abstract class for a Brainfunk instruction. This is what the interpreter deals with."""
05:24:54 <Arrogant> """Perform the required action on the given context."""
05:25:11 <Arrogant> That's one intensely intuitive library.
05:25:48 <twobitsprite> I have a lot of problems with the direction python is going development-wise...
05:26:21 <twobitsprite> i.e. they want to remove all of the alrady sparse functional aspects from the language
05:27:01 <Arrogant> Python sucks at functional, so why have it
05:27:28 <twobitsprite> python also has a lot of exceptions to rules, and special cases, and the syntax is a bit too overloaded for my taste
05:28:16 <Arrogant> It's not perfect, but it's my favorite.
05:29:07 <twobitsprite> th language is very elegant at first, but as you discover a lot of the nuances of the inner workings of the language you'll realize it's very poorly designed...
05:29:47 <twobitsprite> although Java has Python beat in its regularity...
05:31:03 <twobitsprite> If Python was a compiled language with decently optimizing compiler, I migh consider putting up with the irregularities and go back to it...
05:32:49 <twobitsprite> I haven't heard anything about a Python compiler...
05:33:08 <twobitsprite> I know they're working on a JIT, but that's hardly the same...
05:33:42 <Arrogant> The PyPy project has compiling as one of its goals
05:33:47 <Arrogant> But uh, there's not much to look at yet.
05:34:08 <twobitsprite> PyPy has been trying to get something worth looking at for years now, IIRC...
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22:46:53 <Arrogant> Anyone have any ideas for beefing up Brainfuck?
22:47:05 <Arrogant> I can add new features in a couple seconds.
22:48:16 <Arrogant> I've added functions with unique memory arrays and a bunch of scope-manipulations stuff.
22:54:38 <Arrogant> I'm learning how to do this kinda stuff so that I can write more complicated ones?
22:57:30 <kipple> how about loading external modules
22:58:44 <Arrogant> I'm getting to that next, actually
23:00:52 <Arrogant> I should add tailcall recursion
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19:45:28 <wildhalcyon> Im thinking of modelling the datatypes after the B language - a single datatype which acts as a 32-bit signed integer OR a 4-byte character string.
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19:46:02 <wildhalcyon> The other alternative is to have each element be an arbitrarily long byte list which can act as an arbitrarily long signed int or a character string
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20:09:08 <grim_> my connection is fucked inside-out and backwards today
20:10:50 <grim_> and the connection from my shell account to freenode is also toilet
20:12:08 <grim_> best give up and try again another time
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21:34:43 <Keymaker> i'm working on a gammaplex demo at the moment
21:34:45 <Wildhalcyon> Hmm, alright. Its pretty much string-oriented
21:35:24 <Keymaker> i should browse the logs to find one piece of info i asked aardwolf about random number..
21:37:11 <Wildhalcyon> Im thinking about ways to use A-Z to serve as landmarks. There aren't any absolute coordinates in my language
21:37:51 <Wildhalcyon> It would be nice to remember where something is after you've... left it.
21:38:41 <Wildhalcyon> I was thinking of the way that Smurf stored variables as any valid string - even the null string.
21:38:49 <Wildhalcyon> So what random number business are you wondering about?
21:40:51 <Keymaker> i'm trying to get a value between 0 and 300
21:42:28 <Keymaker> ..but i guess now i have to wait aardwolf because i can't get it working..
21:52:17 <Wildhalcyon> is there some kind of seeding mechanism that needs to be done... or something?
21:52:54 <Keymaker> can't remember seeing anything in the spec
21:54:03 <Wildhalcyon> It seems like its either the PRNG, the rounding, or the "print integer" functions are failing
21:54:15 <Wildhalcyon> It should be, I mean.. that's what the random number generator is there fore
21:55:00 <Keymaker> well, i guess i can't get really started until aardwolf is here
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22:17:53 <telemakh0s> hey... I'm looking for a language that's easily to generate correct code in... I.e. I'm doing genetic algorithms and need to be able to generate and modify code programmatically...
22:18:37 <Keymaker> that's the closest easy-generatable one that comes to my mind
22:19:16 <telemakh0s> hmm... brainfuck is a bit slow, maybe something with more instructions? i.e. a language that isn't going to require a high program to do anything interesting in...
22:19:57 <Keymaker> brainfuck is fast, but the interpreters aren't optimizing enough ;)
22:20:51 <telemakh0s> with that argument all languages are equally fast, it's just that the compilers aren't equalling optinizing :P
22:21:37 <Keymaker> anyways; many small brainfuck programs do something interesting
22:22:06 <Keymaker> you can naturally made something own language if you have ideas for instructions
22:22:19 <Keymaker> but remember bf has everything needed, and in perfect symmetry
22:24:51 <Keymaker> what are genetic algorithms, anyways?
22:27:21 <telemakh0s> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithms
22:29:47 <int-e> yet another we-don't-know-what-we're-doing-so-let's-just-shoot-in-the-dark-aimlessly-and-hope-we-hit-something-technique.
22:32:00 <telemakh0s> I like to call it the 10000 monkey's approach...
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23:02:26 <Wildhalcyon> I'd check out the article "The Evolutionary Origin of Complex Features" by Richard Lenski et al
23:02:58 <Wildhalcyon> Im having trouble finding a link online, but I have a local pdf copy if you would like me to email it to you
23:03:20 <Wildhalcyon> It details some of the effects on programming language mechanics in digital organisms
23:03:58 <Wildhalcyon> How 'lethal' or deleterious an instruction mutation would be.
23:06:10 <Wildhalcyon> If you're looking at esolangs, simple is good - brainfuck is good, maybe an 'optimized' bf varient that can work with integers instead of ++ and -- and uses a binary gray code
23:08:51 <Wildhalcyon> a false varient (maybe OWL - see BogusForth), or Smurf (small, hard to screw up instruction set) and maybe nooga's SADOL, but I haven't looked at that one enough.
23:10:49 <Wildhalcyon> digital organisms don't work well with GOTO statements in general, but maybe Spaghetti might be interesting?
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23:31:35 <calamari> I was working on a way to stork class files in the wiki
23:31:52 <ihope> Hmm, this is IRC? :-)
23:31:56 <calamari> I can convert them to a 6/7 bit format (html compatible)
23:32:22 <ihope> Heh. I came here to try to write an IRP program.
23:32:55 <calamari> it uses 91 characters, which isn't an even power of two, but I came up with a scheme that if it were in a certain range the output would be 7 bits, otherwise it'd be 6 bits.. which I can decode
23:33:22 <ihope> Ahem: "Everybody, will you all *please* try to act as if intelligent?" ;-)
23:33:34 <calamari> this means the efficiency of my encoding is in between 6 and 7 bits
23:33:58 <Wildhalcyon> IRP: SEGMENTATION FAULT; ERROR ACCESSING REGISTER #INTELLIGENT
23:35:59 <calamari> Wildhalcyon: anyways, the hope is that I'll be able to have actual programs visible in EsoShell, then people could encode their program and copy it on too.. wouldn't have to ask permission, etc
23:36:13 <Wildhalcyon> Hmm, assuming everyone acts politely, I think that there would be a method to define IPR as being TC given an IRC channel with enough people.
23:37:06 <ihope> Oh, uh: just what is EsoShell? :-)
23:37:23 <calamari> ihope: http://esoshell.kidsquid.com/
23:37:45 <calamari> ihope: it allows you to use certain esoteric languages straight from your web browser
23:37:56 <Wildhalcyon> I don't think a bf varient that allows arbitrary-sized integers and negative numbers is TC.
23:38:17 <calamari> it's quite primitive at this point, but I expect that I'll keep improving it
23:39:07 <calamari> wildhalcyon: why not? just don't use the negative numbers
23:39:11 * Sgep is using konq, and can't figure out Java, so I can't really see EsoShell :-(
23:39:46 <calamari> Sgep: does this work? http://www.masswerk.at/jsuix/
23:39:49 <lament> Wildhalcyon: wtf? why wouldn't it be?
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23:41:11 <Sgep> Yes, but that's JavaScript
23:41:19 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined.
23:42:08 <calamari> sgep: what online languages can you use beesides javascript?
23:42:25 <Wildhalcyon> PLUS I was working on my specification, which is hopefully due to be finished this weekend
23:42:43 <Wildhalcyon> I wish notepad had a file restoration feature...
23:43:09 <lament> why are you using notepad
23:44:08 <Wildhalcyon> but the same problem creeps up. Incidentally, this particular computer isn't a big fan of linux. The sound card and my modem don't have linux drivers, making it pretty hard to enjoy
23:45:05 * ihope "dislikes" devices without Linux drivers
23:45:37 <calamari> Wildhalcyon: yeah, not having sound is no fun
23:46:05 <Wildhalcyon> Anyhow, lament - it wouldn't be because you couldn't initialize a cell to 0 without potentially entering an infinite loop, that I know of.
23:46:06 <ihope> Well, NetHack's sounds still work fine on any sound card.
23:46:13 <calamari> have you tried an ubuntu hoary live cd? you might have sound
23:47:32 <calamari> that's why if ou stay in the positive numbers, you should be fine
23:47:35 <Wildhalcyon> sorry,I was assuming the initial value was less than 0.
23:47:53 <ihope> Make it halt on negatives as well, I'd guess?
23:48:10 <calamari> you can do [+] if you're in the negatives
23:48:21 <Wildhalcyon> But there's no way to KNOW whether you're positive or negative
23:48:42 <calamari> I thought it was defined that the memory array was zeroed on start
23:49:39 <ihope> Well, as I said, [-] while negative infinite loops, and [+] while positive infinite loops.
23:49:46 <Wildhalcyon> It doesn't need to be that sufficient. Just that you can't have user input.
23:50:05 <Wildhalcyon> You can have initial values on the tape - you'll know what they are, and hence can program around them.
23:50:18 <Wildhalcyon> You can't do that with nondeterministic user input that could be negative
23:50:19 <calamari> what about a scheme like this: 0 -1 1 -2 2 -3 3 etc.. then you can do [-]
23:50:20 <ihope> How about making + move farther away from zero (up if at zero) and - move closer to zero (down if at zero)?
23:50:50 <Wildhalcyon> That could work too ihope. A little funny on the mathematics, but it could work
23:52:12 <ihope> Or have an infinite loop autodetect thing, but that'd be tricky :-)
23:52:32 <calamari> Wildhalcyon: you irc withotu a chair? :P
23:52:34 <Keymaker> by the way, is one stack enough for turing complete language's memory, if the stack can be reversed?
23:52:55 <Keymaker> you said you stand corrected..
23:53:26 <Keymaker> anyways, did anyone catch my guestion..?
23:53:41 <calamari> it'd be neat to be able to use a single stack
23:54:00 <ihope> I think it'd be sufficient: just have a special value that, when hit, has you reverse the stack?
23:54:00 <Keymaker> i'm planning a new language at the moment
23:54:22 <Wildhalcyon> It's implemented as a circular list - so you can rotate the elements forward and backwards, with stack pushing/popping at the current position in the list.
23:54:36 <ihope> Hmm, sounds cool :-)
23:54:46 <calamari> I'm still trying to determine whether allowing only a single loop is still tc
23:54:51 <Keymaker> it's kinda like wrapping array with stack elements :)
23:54:59 <ihope> You mean not being able to nest them?
23:55:01 <Wildhalcyon> Including dup and swap, and you can rearrange the stack any way you like
23:55:39 <ihope> Pop push push? :-)
23:55:42 <calamari> ihope: yeah.. it'd be a signle loop[ from the end to the start
23:55:57 <Wildhalcyon> dup == duplicates top stack element {a -- a a}
23:56:38 <ihope> Well, if you clone Brainf*** in it, that means it's Turing-complete :-)
23:57:03 <Keymaker> you can have partial bf interpreter in befunge 93 :)
23:57:13 <ihope> If you implement it *perfectly* ;-)
23:57:39 <ihope> Well, yes I think it would be. To make an inner loop, just skip to the end of the outer loop then skip back to the inner one.
23:57:53 <Wildhalcyon> I liked the befunge-93 spec a lot, except for the 80 x 25 definition
23:58:10 <Keymaker> i liked especially the 80x25 definition
23:58:16 <Keymaker> i like the limitations in stuff
23:58:19 <Wildhalcyon> Isn't that how spaghetti does its looping?
23:58:36 <calamari> Wildhalcyon: spagetti eforces a goto after each statement :)
23:58:55 <Wildhalcyon> Right now, my fungeoid's biggest limitation is no jumping.
23:59:17 <calamari> and I think I put in an error if you tried to jump to the next higher line number
23:59:28 <Wildhalcyon> Calamari: I know - it skips to another loop, so there's not really any looping.
23:59:56 <calamari> Wildhalcyon: you could jump 1 2 3 1.. or 1 2 3 2
00:00:07 <calamari> so there can be multiple loops
00:00:53 <calamari> 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884?
00:01:43 <calamari> we were trying to decide on a bf/befunge hybrid language for the eso os
00:01:50 <ihope> Heh. If an expansion instruction were added to SMETATA or SMATINY, would that language become Turing-complete?
00:02:24 <calamari> although it did inspire bos :)
00:02:44 <ihope> Hmm, "esos" sounds like a nice name for an esoteric operating system :-)
00:02:47 <calamari> Wildhalcyon: dunno, I'd have to look at those langs
00:02:57 <ihope> Yes: Add a new instruction at the end of the program.
00:03:58 <Wildhalcyon> For SMETATA, I think it just needs a halting instruction (say, any time it reaches Step 0 or Step -1).
00:04:06 <calamari> Wildhalcyon: yeah, more like path than snusp I think
00:04:29 <ihope> Well, does arbitrary memory make anything Turing-complete?
00:04:30 <Wildhalcyon> Core SNUSP is my favorite, right now. It just feels.. good.
00:04:31 <calamari> Wildhalcyon: it wasn't two dimension yet, though
00:04:41 <int-e> ihope: not necessarily
00:04:49 <ihope> I mean: arbitrary isn't infinite after all...
00:05:00 <int-e> ihope: the classical example is a finite automaton coupled with a single stack
00:05:34 <int-e> the stack is infinite but the automaton can only accept context free grammars, not arbitrary decidable languages.
00:05:43 <int-e> grammars -> languages
00:05:57 <int-e> iow, it's not turing complete.
00:06:32 <Wildhalcyon> Im having trouble implementing jumping in my fungeoid, trying to decide how to deal with connectivity
00:07:55 <ihope> int-e: It essentially has a "window" on the stack that cannot grow or shrink, and the top of the window can't move below the top of the stack.
00:08:09 <ihope> You know, that'd be a great thing to directly put inside a language.
00:11:18 <Wildhalcyon> The language will be way too slow if its not easy enough to determine connectivity between two cells
00:12:36 <Keymaker> btw, should popping empty stack return 0 or cause an error?
00:13:23 <ihope> Or just leave whatever you're popping to as it already is.
00:14:10 <ihope> Wildhalcyon: add jump-points and rails. When moving off a jump-point, you follow the rail to its end. I'm not sure what this'll actually do, but it might do something :-)
00:14:49 <Wildhalcyon> ihope, right now, I'm just implementing it as a topologically independent instruction. I.E. as far as jumping is concerned, two points are ALWAYS connected
00:15:16 <ihope> Hmm... sounds good :-)
00:15:49 <Wildhalcyon> Some of the earlier ideas I had included wormholes, but the syntax for definining them would be difficult at best, so I dumped them. It still might be possible with the A-Z instructions.
00:20:15 <ihope> How about jumpwalls, which are jumped over such that you land just after the next jumpwall?
00:21:06 <Wildhalcyon> like the ; instruction in befunge? Won't work for my language with the current design.
00:23:11 <ihope> ...I don't see a ; instruction.
00:26:02 * ihope wonders where the java console went, and if chatzilla kidnapped it
00:27:59 <ihope> Thanks.... except I still can't find the Java console...
00:28:44 <Wildhalcyon> I'm retyping out the mini-spec on the topological spaces. I'll post the link when I finish it and upload it
00:31:57 * ihope javaconsoles himself
00:32:14 -!- ihope has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:32:49 <Keymaker> it was in this language design
00:33:02 <Keymaker> i don't want to tell, because that would reveal about the language
00:33:56 -!- ihope has joined.
00:35:49 * ihope wonders whether this is a coincidence or a minor prank :-)
00:36:55 <lament> it's just a coincidence, don't worry
00:36:59 * ihope does a minor wtf at this website
00:37:00 <lament> it doesn't concern you anyway
00:37:06 <lament> not like we would tell you if it did
00:38:06 <lament> if i were you, i'd just pretend nothing happened
00:38:49 <ihope> Okay. /me listens to the crickets chirping instead ;-)
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00:41:04 <Wildhalcyon> http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/colorspaces.txt anyone have any comments for me?
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00:43:17 <ihope> (argh: yes, I'll use a verticon) o_o
00:43:50 <calamari> cool, a sinhgle loop seems fine.. implemented bf
00:44:25 <calamari> I may be able to use a single switch statement too (no if's)
00:44:54 <ihope> ...Okay: how do I get EsoShell to work? :-)
00:46:31 <calamari> ihope, just go here.. it should work http://esoshell.kidsquid.com/
00:46:37 <Wildhalcyon> You crazy fool calamari!! muahahahhahaaaaaaa
00:46:44 * Sgep got Java to work under FF
00:47:20 <ihope> Start: applet not initialized.
00:49:14 <calamari> ihope: that usually means you're using ie
00:49:41 <ihope> ...But I'm not :-)
00:49:41 <Sgep> I didn't get EsoShell to work in FF though
00:49:55 <ihope> This is Mac OS X... should I try Safari?
00:50:34 <calamari> ihope: it uses java 1.4.. wonder what version os x comes with
00:51:48 <ihope> Aha. Firefox only recognizes 1.3.1.
00:52:23 <calamari> i can probably make do with 1.2 functions
00:52:39 <ihope> Well, it might work in Safari...
00:53:40 <calamari> I tried making a 1.1 compliant awt version but it was horrible
00:54:34 <calamari> no idea how that guy did it in javascript..
00:54:53 <Sgep> Bleh. DNS borked
00:55:16 <Wildhalcyon> Hmm, I should probably remove my WIP from the wiki page since I dont have anyone to be collaborative on it with.
00:55:43 <calamari> ihope: http://www.masswerk.at/jsuix/
00:56:10 <calamari> ihope: something similar in javascript.. not free though
00:56:55 <calamari> one adanvatage to the way he is doing it is that you don't actually have a real cursor.. maybe I should do that too
00:59:52 <ihope> Cute. CRITICAL ERROR: The file exists!
01:01:40 <calamari> ihope: that's a cool language, by Keymaker :)
01:02:06 <calamari> btw Keymaker, what's your real name so I can give you better credit
01:03:11 <Keymaker> oh, and you can find the real name from friends-of-brainfuck list
01:03:53 <ihope> Uh, how do I *create* a file in EsoShell? :-)
01:04:20 <calamari> ihope echo "whatever" > filename
01:05:55 <ihope> .drawkcab gniphce tsuj s'taC .raed hO
01:06:01 <ihope> How do I exit? :-)
01:06:06 <calamari> I searched my mail for "keymaker" but found nothing :)
01:06:30 <Keymaker> well, i'll e-mail the name for you then..
01:08:51 <Wildhalcyon> Anyone get a chance to look at the file link I posted above?
01:09:52 <Wildhalcyon> If you like, you can right a f*ckf*ck program that prints the comments out for me?
01:10:14 <Wildhalcyon> http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/colorspaces.txt
01:13:04 -!- int-e has left (?).
01:13:21 <ihope> Argh: EsoShell just sorta conked out.
01:13:43 <calamari> keymaker: cool, thanks.. now I can give you proper credit :)
01:14:31 <calamari> Keymaker: there is an unnecessary interpreter in esoshell
01:15:07 <calamari> I wrote it from scratch, but used the error messages out of your original
01:15:36 <ihope> Oh, uh, I wondered just what "mount" did, then played around with cat...
01:16:59 <calamari> ihope: do you remember what mount command you tried? I'd like to fix any bugs :)
01:17:16 <ihope> "mount wiki README" :-)
01:17:41 <Keymaker> hehe, nice. unnecessary interpreter itself is easy, but can't think of an esolang where unnecessary interpreter could be written..
01:17:56 <ihope> What esolangs open files?
01:18:14 <Keymaker> i know none that could open files
01:18:27 <ihope> Make brainf*** able to open files.
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01:19:49 <ihope> Nah, just stick all the files in one big chuck in negative memory.
01:20:18 <ihope> Well, you'd need an actual filesystem of course :-)
01:20:47 <calamari_> ihope: weird.. I did did that mount and it worked fine
01:21:24 <Wildhalcyon> use braintwist - put the files in the data array, and move to the files using the code array
01:22:06 <Keymaker> for the last time, i don't want to open files! aaargh lol
01:22:09 <Sgep> Is there a brainf*** interpreter that works with PESOIX?
01:22:33 <ihope> Well, it wasn't the mount... I think. The applet just failed to load.
01:22:50 <Wildhalcyon> But its not opening files... its just... manipulating the data space. Hmm.. might be a project I look into...
01:23:37 <Sgep> http://jonripley.com/easel/api.txt
01:23:43 <calamari_> ihope: if a program freezes you can try ctrl-c
01:24:09 <calamari_> sgep: bos implements esoapi 1.0, but not the full pesoix
01:24:52 <calamari_> i have a lot of hacks in there.. need to take them out and use real stuff like signals, I know
01:25:33 <ihope> How does one make an API call?
01:25:45 <calamari_> it started out as a shell, and it's getting more and more like an os, so I need to rework a lot of stuff with it
01:26:33 <calamari_> then the next char is the function
01:26:37 <ihope> Wait... is output a comma or a period?
01:27:36 <ihope> Okay; my Macintosh skills are limited. I'll run over to Windows...
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01:31:31 <calamari_> I wonder if I could make something that is lynx compatible :)
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01:39:00 -!- calamari_ has changed nick to calamari.
01:42:11 <Keymaker> gentlemen, which one looks better:
01:42:48 <Keymaker> it's the language i'm designing
01:43:41 <Keymaker> i'll posts specs probably later today
01:43:54 <Keymaker> but since i revealed this much i can tell a bit;
01:44:05 <Keymaker> ) and ( are used as loops, the brainfuck way
01:44:26 <Keymaker> the memory is a stack, that is accessible the brainfuck way
01:44:44 <Keymaker> like one can increase and decrease the current value of stack
01:45:08 <Keymaker> the instructions are selected by pattern of ()
01:45:26 <Keymaker> but i haven't yet selected all of them
01:47:50 <Keymaker> i may have another design idea for this, gotta think
01:58:09 <telemakh0s> Wildhalcyon: I'd love a copy of that article... I can't find it online either
01:59:14 <telemakh0s> Also, can you point me to a link to OWL?
02:01:34 <Keymaker> which one is used usually more, push or pop?
02:02:21 <telemakh0s> Keymaker: I would imagine they would be used about equally, unless you either plan on abandonning things at the bottom of the stack, or trying to top things from an empty stack...
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02:02:55 <Wildhalcyon> see how you use one less pop for each push in this case?
02:03:20 <Wildhalcyon> Plus, many languages pop an operation as a side effect of their main purpose, such as output
02:03:21 <telemakh0s> Wildhalcyon: ahh... but things are still popped, the pop is just implied in the "add"
02:04:05 <Wildhalcyon> That's correct, but I assumed he meant simple popping
02:04:50 <Wildhalcyon> If you're dealing with a language which has registers and a stack, you need to push and pop to/from the stack and the register to do ANYTHING with the values
02:04:58 <Wildhalcyon> so you WILL be pushing and popping just about equally
02:05:05 <telemakh0s> so I guess you meant in terms of which ones a programmer would explicitly use, in which case push definately...
02:05:48 <Wildhalcyon> I wonder if kemaker is trying to make a bf with a stack...
02:06:41 <Wildhalcyon> Oh, darn, that would have been interesting
02:07:09 <telemakh0s> one problem with bf as a language for use in G/A, is that you have to ensure that [] are matched and that you don't have more <'s than you do >'s...
02:07:40 <telemakh0s> unless you just ignore unmatced braces and assume the "tape" wraps arround...
02:07:41 <Wildhalcyon> Right, but that can just be considered a lethal mutation
02:08:23 <Wildhalcyon> The number of mutations that can cause unmatched [] is small with respect to the total number of mutations
02:08:31 <telemakh0s> true..., but if you only have 8 possible states for each element of the program, and each state is equally probable, you'll end up with a _lot_ of fatal mutations...
02:09:15 <telemakh0s> well... if you mutate a single atom of the program, you have a 1/4 chance of it being either [ or ]...
02:10:38 <telemakh0s> yes, in fact you argue that [ and ] are the two most important instructions, as they provide for branching...
02:11:47 <telemakh0s> I'm not saying that... I'm just trying to figure out a way to mutate them, with out it resulting in mostly fatal mutations
02:11:49 <Wildhalcyon> Since the language isn't rewritable, you always know which [ goes to which ], which is equivalent to knowing how long your loop is
02:12:09 <Wildhalcyon> You can either A) make mutating your braces VERY unlikely
02:12:27 <Wildhalcyon> or B) remove the braces and replace them with "skip n" instructions
02:12:29 <telemakh0s> or make it so that mutatin one brace causes the matching one to mutate?
02:12:58 <telemakh0s> I don't think "skip n" would work, because you have to be able to "skipback n" too...
02:13:16 <Wildhalcyon> not if you implement the language with a function stack
02:13:36 <Wildhalcyon> you have a counter that counts to n, then goes back, counts to n, then goes back
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02:15:24 <Wildhalcyon> The problem is that n needs to be unbounded
02:18:18 <telemakh0s> well... n would be bounded "to the end of the program"
02:18:37 <Wildhalcyon> What I meant is you can't set a default to the maximum size of a loop
02:19:35 <Wildhalcyon> There's a string-matching idea in the paper too, for dealing with goto-less loops (which is inherantly what a brace-matching mechanism is)
02:23:04 <Wildhalcyon> Im wrestling with whether or not to include my color definition in my esolang.
02:24:27 <Wildhalcyon> If I dont, everything is one big topological space. I can use an operator such as # to say "STOP, wrap here" and everything works fine.
02:25:54 <Keymaker> mh.. it's suddenly 4 am again..
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02:26:28 <Wildhalcyon> g'night.. look forward to seeing a finished product soon
03:34:59 <Sgep> Would it be safe to say that Network-Headache doesn't have an implementation?
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04:21:36 <Wildhalcyon> Feel like looking at a confusing half-written spec for me?
04:29:31 <Wildhalcyon> http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/alt_spec.txt
04:48:15 <heatsink> It's worth noting that UTF-8 is compatible with ASCII characters 32-127
04:52:01 <Wildhalcyon> I know, that's what I was getting at with Unicode being based on ASCII
04:56:20 <heatsink> I suggest adding, after the "Stack Elements" section, a description of the stack, which is the other datatype for your language.
04:56:42 <heatsink> Also, what happens on an access to an invalid stack location or pop of an empty stack.
04:56:44 <Wildhalcyon> Oh, I probably should. The stack is pretty novel, as far as stack-based esolangs are concerns
04:58:02 <heatsink> I invented an esoteric non-programming language which had balanced base-6 numbers :)
04:58:21 <heatsink> I didn't know there was a name for it
04:58:42 <Wildhalcyon> really? that's gotta be pretty cool. I've been a big fan of balanced ternary.
04:59:01 <Wildhalcyon> I even wanted to write a bf varient that used it, called trittyfuck.
05:00:21 <Wildhalcyon> It might be possible if each data cell is a balanced ternary digit
05:03:14 <heatsink> I can't think of a way in which the use of balanced ternary would actually change the behavior of bf.
05:03:30 <Wildhalcyon> hence my lack of creating a language as such
05:04:03 <Wildhalcyon> If you try to pop an element from an empty stack, it pops a null string. I think that's the most esoteric approach.
05:04:25 <Wildhalcyon> Except for maybe popping the string "ribbit", which would be pretty crazy too.
05:04:58 <heatsink> It would be more esoteric to make pop-from-empty-stack read from stdin :)
05:05:13 <Wildhalcyon> that would be pretty crazy too, you're right
05:05:26 <heatsink> Okay. So the starting state of the stack is an infinite stack of the empty string.
05:07:28 <Wildhalcyon> Except that those aren't rotated when the stack is rotated
05:07:47 <heatsink> Oh, I didn't notice the stack rotation functions.
05:08:16 <heatsink> That kinda cuts down the beauty of it.
05:08:20 <Wildhalcyon> They rotate the entire stack forward/backward, so it acts as a circularly linked list
05:11:39 <Wildhalcyon> enters an infinite loop of pushing a's (10) onto the stack.
05:12:05 <heatsink> how about the single character }
05:12:23 <Wildhalcyon> I should probably specify that all sides of the program have an implicit # associated with them.
05:12:47 <Wildhalcyon> I've been debating that. Im thinking that { and } should be interchangable, so {abc} is the same as }abc{
05:13:21 <Wildhalcyon> which would be the same as {abc{ and }abc}
05:13:43 <heatsink> If you traverse {abc} backwards, does it push cba?
05:14:18 <Wildhalcyon> I think. I'd rather not have it produce an error
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05:16:56 <Wildhalcyon> If you refresh, you'll see the updated spec that reflects the helpful comments and suggestions that you've given me :-) Thank you
05:19:53 <Wildhalcyon> I was originally very keen on color spaces, but the string manipulation is a lot more fun and different - like a 2D muriel language :-)
05:20:41 <heatsink> It's not clear to me what happens when a number is interpreted as a string or vice versa
05:21:08 <Wildhalcyon> Hmm, okay. That's probably something I need to be more explicit on then
05:22:27 <Wildhalcyon> Basically, if you're performing any sort of arithmetic on it, its a number (because it doesnt make sense to add or multiply characters). If you're concatenating, outputting, etc. its a character string.
05:23:07 <Wildhalcyon> in other words, its only a string if the command manipulates bytes
05:25:01 <heatsink> But is it a number in ascii base-10 notation, or in binary base-32 notation, or what?
05:25:49 <heatsink> Also, are leading zeros stripped, and are numbers right-justified?
05:26:16 <Wildhalcyon> leading zeros are not stripped. The numbers are right-justified however. I commented on the leading zeros portion already
05:26:20 <Wildhalcyon> even wrote an example program for removing them.
05:27:18 <heatsink> So, if I subtract 100 from 100 I will get 000.
05:27:38 <Wildhalcyon> and it uses the binary representation of the character string
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05:28:48 <heatsink> okay, so all numbers will print as a sequence of the character #
05:30:22 <heatsink> It makes a difference because unicode doesn't specify the number of bytes a character occupies.
05:30:50 <heatsink> If the internal representation were UTF-32 you might expect a base 2**32 interpretation of numbers.
05:32:02 <Wildhalcyon> I mentioned the characters occupying a byte of space, but after reading the paragraph, it is unclear.
05:33:28 <Wildhalcyon> Again, this isn't the official spec, just a sort of.. sandbox spec I guess you could say
05:33:41 <Wildhalcyon> Looking at how all the pieces fit together before I carve it in stone and write an implementation
05:34:26 <Wildhalcyon> Anyhow, that's where my desire to remove ASCII from the picture stems. So many ASCII characters are not printable.. I don't see a reason for including them in the language specification.
05:36:11 <Wildhalcyon> I think its looking pretty good now. I'll try to polish the spec and see how it looks tomorrow, but I won't have time to write up a spec this week. I've promised my professor that I'd have my research program running by Friday, so I'll be pretty exhausted doing that.
05:37:52 <heatsink> oh. You're writing a different program for class.
05:38:38 <Wildhalcyon> I actually thought about doing an esolang for my research, but.. I dont know that the dept. would have let it in
05:38:55 <Wildhalcyon> Its more computer science than biomedical engineering
05:39:12 <heatsink> what will your reasearch program do?
05:39:58 <Wildhalcyon> run a monte carlo simulation on a 3D piece of tissue
05:40:53 <Wildhalcyon> Its for an optical imaging system. I'll need to model the system, then reconstruct the output for a variety of systems
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05:44:32 <heatsink> This system you are modeling -- is this to test the design before building it?
05:45:36 <Wildhalcyon> There's been some preliminary work to suggest that the system should work fairly well
05:46:13 <Wildhalcyon> part of the goal is to be able to use the system model in the design of the tissue.
05:47:01 <Wildhalcyon> I don't, and Im not entirely sure how they're doing it either.
05:47:13 <Wildhalcyon> I think they're stimulating embryonic stem cells..
05:52:28 <heatsink> What kidn of tissue are they trying to make?
05:53:45 <Wildhalcyon> tendons right now. Future projects might be aimed more at detecting cancerous tissues embedded in other tissues (such as liver)
05:54:37 <heatsink> Cool. What does surgery currently do for severed or damaged tendons?
05:54:43 <Wildhalcyon> They use a flourescent marker, which is what we're trying to detect.
05:55:36 <Wildhalcyon> I think they try to stretch them to get them to regrow and reconnect
05:56:14 <Wildhalcyon> These are pretty much entirely artificial tendons though, which makes me think that the stretching business doesnt work that great.
05:58:09 <heatsink> If tendons could stretch, they wouldn't be very useful.
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06:28:18 <Wildhalcyon> anyhow, Im off to bed, thank you very much heatsink!!
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06:37:55 * Arrogant is playing with his expandable Brainfuck
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09:36:03 <Arrogant> http://paragon.pastebin.com/366910
09:37:13 <Arrogant> Condensed: {fibo:(~=)->+>+<<[>>%>*<<[->+<]>>%<<*<-]>},{fibo}!
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10:15:58 <Arrogant> Pretty useless little hack of a language
10:18:03 <Arrogant> http://paragon.pastebin.com/366910
10:18:15 <Arrogant> That's the commented version. This is condensed: {fibo:(~=)->+>+<<[>>%>*<<[->+<]>>%<<*<-]>},{fibo}!
10:18:25 <Arrogant> Brainfuck + functions and a few other things.
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11:04:44 <jix> i can use my editor for befunge development...
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15:55:56 <jix> moin Wildhalcyon
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16:28:29 <Wildhalcyon> How come IRC commands seem to be centered around death and kevin kline?
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16:35:30 <Keymaker> well, haven't done much anything
16:36:20 <Keymaker> but now i'm going to spend a bit on that new language of mine
16:36:30 <Keymaker> i have some really nice and perhaps unique ideas
16:36:54 <Wildhalcyon> which Im sure is good, but its yours, not mine
16:37:07 <Wildhalcyon> Would you mind reading the updated spec? I've been working on it this morning a lot.
16:37:45 <Wildhalcyon> http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/CRAWL_spec.txt
16:45:47 <Keymaker> gotta be one of the clearest specs i've ever read
16:50:51 <Wildhalcyon> Aside from the duplicate entry for the character ' (fixed on my local copy)
16:54:23 <Keymaker> nothing comes to my mind(s) at the moment
16:55:12 <Wildhalcyon> Hmm, I have 14 instructions to work with in my spur-of-the-moment adage derivative
16:56:32 <Keymaker> it's hard to write good specs..
16:56:45 <Keymaker> my language planning seems to go along the spec writing, this time
16:56:48 <Wildhalcyon> It is, because the ideas are clear in YOUR head, not necessarily in someone who's trying to understand
16:56:55 <Wildhalcyon> that's why heatsink's help last night was so valuable.
16:57:13 <Keymaker> this is my fourth plan of the language
16:57:23 <Keymaker> i made yesterday four plans for it
16:57:38 <Keymaker> although i noticed there was something lethal problem in two of them.. or three x)
16:58:23 <Keymaker> but this current should be fine
16:59:05 <Keymaker> i'm worried about one thing though
16:59:20 <Keymaker> i think i want this time my language be turing-complete
16:59:38 <Keymaker> and not sure if my stack+accumulator system works
16:59:58 <Keymaker> naturally i could replace that system by using two stacks
17:00:36 <Wildhalcyon> Hmmm, you don't have any other data storage?
17:01:16 <Keymaker> i have currently a stack and an accumulator
17:01:41 <Keymaker> the stack can be reversed by instruction
17:02:08 <Keymaker> that memory model probably isn't turing-complete
17:02:50 <Wildhalcyon> Probably not. It doesn't allow random access of the stack
17:03:23 <Keymaker> yeah (i guess i understand what you mean)
17:03:47 <Keymaker> best would be to use two stacks perhaps
17:03:59 <Keymaker> that's been told tc compatible
17:04:27 <Keymaker> with proper instructions.. and they being popping, pushing, and changing the stack, and reversing
17:04:32 <Wildhalcyon> Alright, I think I came up with a gnarly n-symbol udage alphabet
17:04:57 <Wildhalcyon> I think that might be TC Keymaker, to be honest Im not an expert enough to know
17:05:26 <Keymaker> i read it from wikipedia sometime
17:08:39 <Keymaker> ah yes.. i think i is.. one can use stack memory just like an array if one has two stacks
17:08:50 <Keymaker> although it's naturally not as easy >:)
17:09:09 <Keymaker> but i don't think i want to use array model always
17:09:18 <Wildhalcyon> You can, pop from one push to the other - more like a list than an array
17:09:20 <Keymaker> (actually i have never used it..)
17:09:52 <Keymaker> but i just meant one can move it like it were an array
17:10:06 <Wildhalcyon> a list is where you only have access to the element and the element's neighbor(s)
17:10:28 <Wildhalcyon> Actually, you CAN keep your stack TC if you have an instruction which pops from one end and pushes to the other
17:10:47 <Wildhalcyon> its a TC single stack model which I use in my language
17:13:15 <jix> there are different kinds of (linked) lists
17:14:13 <jix> my code executes without throwing exceptions ... maybe it even works!
17:15:03 <jix> i'm working on my website
17:18:39 <jix> why does it return nil
17:19:07 <jix> it shouldn't return nil
17:20:24 <jix> i think it's a stupid typo
17:20:31 <jix> it's always a stupid type *g*
17:20:51 * jix searches the ActiveRecord::Base doc
17:21:45 <Keymaker> so, would this make TC memory?
17:23:39 <Keymaker> is single queue memory tc? (since that can be done with this)
17:24:08 <jix> you can simulate infinite tape with it
17:24:19 <jix> you have data values 0 and 1
17:24:28 <jix> and a special marker 2
17:24:41 <jix> if you move in direction a
17:24:46 <jix> you rotate right
17:24:53 <jix> in direction b you rotate left
17:25:11 <jix> and as soon as you reach 2 you add another 0 before the 2 (extend the tape)
17:25:48 <jix> np: Kyuss - Supa Scoopa and Mighty Scoop [ Welcome To Sky Valley ]
17:26:01 <jix> this song is cool
17:26:23 <jix> just 2 typos ;)
17:28:52 <Wildhalcyon> Shoot. it doesn't match any of the integer sequence database entries
17:29:09 <Wildhalcyon> Im enumerating all the possible n-length symbol-independent strings
17:30:01 <Wildhalcyon> I might have a typo (I hope not.. 178 length-6 strings!)
17:33:01 <Keymaker> grgrghh.. there are too many esolangs to try!
17:33:13 <Wildhalcyon> Whoops. Typo! (in the number of length-4, not a string typo)
17:33:14 <Keymaker> and new coming all the time :) keep it up though :)
17:34:01 <Wildhalcyon> I found a matching integer sequence! 1 2 5 15 50 178... (next three for lenghts 7,8,9 are 663 2553 and 10086)
17:34:24 <Wildhalcyon> I'm trying. This will be my second real esolang, as opposed to the ones in my head
17:40:38 <Wildhalcyon> Im not sure how that integer sequence (which deals with anti-chains in "rooted trees" ?) relates to the symbol problem though
17:44:48 <Keymaker> the one i'm designing currently?
17:45:06 <Wildhalcyon> what else have you designed? Because I have a short attention span and dont remember
17:45:48 <Keymaker> http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/trigger/trigger.html
17:46:05 <Keymaker> i should update the page with couple of programs..
17:46:32 <Keymaker> one of them doesn't work yet and i should rewrite because i'm too lazy to search for the bug.. when i got time to do that i'll update the site
17:48:32 <Keymaker> jix: on trigger's site i have new version of 99bob.. it's been there for a while, though
17:49:04 <Keymaker> just thought you might want to see it if you haven't..
17:49:52 <Wildhalcyon> Is there already a programming language called Lingua?
17:52:19 <Wildhalcyon> The instructions are encoded in a length-n string of symbols (not necessarily characters)
17:52:49 <jix> my best 99bob is stil my subskin version
17:52:50 <jix> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-subskin-868.html
17:52:57 <jix> but still only 2 votes :(
17:53:01 <Wildhalcyon> Glypho takes the first symbol and calls it "a", then it looks at the next symbol, which can either be "a" or something other than "a", which it calls "b"
17:53:54 <Keymaker> yeah, it deserves more! too bad i gave my vote already ;)
17:54:32 <jix> Wildhalcyon: thanks
17:55:06 <Wildhalcyon> If Glypho ever gets an implementation running, I'll write a 99bob program and post it up too
17:55:08 <Keymaker> so this glypho isn't the same than the other language you're working?
17:55:48 <Wildhalcyon> The other language is called.. not sure yet. Its a bit more serious (I'm writing a rogue-like RPG in it)
17:56:21 <Keymaker> i love languages that do stuff with strings and patterns (like thue (and trigger))
17:56:23 <Wildhalcyon> So, the possible length-3 Glypho strings are: aaa aab aba abb abc
17:57:08 <jix> not sure but isn't the number of length-n glypho string n!
17:57:48 <Wildhalcyon> not that I can see, although it might be related to the factorial function in some manner I can't conceive of
17:58:13 <Wildhalcyon> I haven't written a formula for length-n glypho strings yet
17:59:45 <jix> ah no.. i'm wrong
18:00:08 <Wildhalcyon> Its kind of fun seeing how the enumerations work out
18:05:05 <Wildhalcyon> Im trying to design a tree structure out of it, but its difficult
18:09:49 <Keymaker> i guess i'm now doing fifth draft..
18:10:10 <Wildhalcyon> Jix, you could use a 3-symbol string to encode bf instruction minimalization since it only has 5 instructions
18:10:34 <Keymaker> or change one concept, so to speak
18:11:21 <Wildhalcyon> For the main version of glypho, Im using length-4 strings, that gives me 15 instructions
18:11:57 <Wildhalcyon> I'd like at least 1 NOP (aaaa - at least) so I have 14 "real" instructions to work with
18:16:03 <Wildhalcyon> I haven't quite figured out a way to.. y'know.. encode numbers in the symbols. I'll have to work on that
18:20:13 <Keymaker> i probably won't be back until next wednesday.. important exam stuff that day..
18:20:38 <Keymaker> on wednesday i'm free for a while, though, and have some more spare time :)
18:21:00 <Keymaker> i'll try to get this thing ready by wednesday
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19:00:14 <Wildhalcyon> Arggggghhh, I have room for one more instruction...
19:18:41 <Wildhalcyon> I could make it push 0 onto the stack, perform integer division/modulus...
19:19:16 <Wildhalcyon> I could make it unefungeoid and reverse program flow
20:10:09 <jix> i can use my website code for static pages now!
20:10:52 <jix> and i hope it's faster in production mode with fcgi and lighttpd than in development mode with webrick
20:12:38 <jix> wow it's only 597 lines and i think 30% are auto-generated by rails
20:13:11 <jix> oh wait i didn't counted the .rhtml files (templates)
20:15:34 <jix> 660 with html templates
20:16:12 <jix> it's the extension of erb files... that ruby embedded in html
20:16:22 <jix> it's like php's <?php code ?>
20:16:29 <jix> but it's <% ruby_code %>
20:17:02 <jix> rails views are written using erb .rhtml files
20:19:57 <jix> 0 ops, 326 total... never saw that anywhere except here at freenode
20:20:33 <jix> an irc channel with 326 users and 0 ops
20:20:59 <jix> on op can kick or ban users
20:21:08 <Wildhalcyon> I only chat on this channel, so I'm not really familiar with them
20:26:17 <jix> ok next controller... menu
20:26:55 <Wildhalcyon> Can you look at the glypho spec and tell me if you think its TC?
20:29:17 <jix> but i think it is
20:29:46 <Wildhalcyon> I think so too, but its sort of hard to be certain I guess
20:30:31 <Wildhalcyon> I KNOW it would be TC if I changed negate and multiply to be increment/decrement - it would look a lot like BUB (a TC bf varient)
20:31:28 <jix> you get inc by abba abbb
20:31:33 <jix> and dec by abba abbc
20:32:25 <Wildhalcyon> Do you think I should include the multiply and reverse flow operators?
20:32:28 <kipple> the big question is if the memory is random accessible enough
20:32:49 <Wildhalcyon> There's a typo in the spec - abcb should be "r" not "?"
20:33:05 <Wildhalcyon> It should be kipple - you can rotate the circular stack forward and backwards as much as you like
20:33:22 <kipple> what's the difference between rotate and reverse-rotate?
20:33:52 <Wildhalcyon> rotate: {a b c d -- d a b c} reverse-rotate: {a b c d -- b c d a}
20:34:29 <jix> the stack consists of?
20:35:10 <jix> conditional looping is a bit difficult
20:35:30 <jix> you don't have a test operator
20:36:05 <kipple> what does reverse do? reverse the IP?
20:36:10 <jix> a test operator that checks if the upper stack value is greater than the 2nd and pushes 1 or 0
20:36:20 <jix> and do not remove multiplication
20:36:36 <jix> that's needed for conditional looping
20:36:48 <jix> because you can multiply the relative adress with the test result
20:37:01 <jix> 1 does skip 0 doesn't
20:37:36 <jix> maybe remove q and say outputting a value > 255 terminates
20:38:25 <Wildhalcyon> What if it terminates if it ever skips to a negative instruction reference?
20:38:50 <kipple> Ah, I get the rotates now. I though you actually rotated the entire stack, but you just push/pop between the top and bottom elements
20:39:03 <jix> that's possible too
20:39:48 <Wildhalcyon> Well, I think I get bonus points for being obfuscated
20:39:49 <kipple> well, then I agree that the memory should be sufficient for TC
20:40:11 <kipple> as long as the stack is unbounded
20:40:45 <Wildhalcyon> As far as the language spec is concerned, it is. Obviously, implementations will have bounded-storage
20:41:49 <kipple> I think it should be pretty trivial to implement brainfuck in this lang
20:42:10 <kipple> IF you include a conditional operator that is :)
20:43:10 <kipple> how about pushing the difference between the top two elements instead of just 0 and 1?
20:43:18 <Wildhalcyon> 11-+ produces 0 on the stack, so does 11t (where t is jix's test operator)
20:43:27 <jix> makes conditional looping difficult kipple
20:44:18 <jix> using negation and swap you can make < > <= and >=
20:44:48 <kipple> so, which operator has to go to make room for test?
20:45:33 <jix> but reversing program flow is cool
20:45:59 <kipple> I agree that q to is not very important
20:47:08 <Wildhalcyon> I suppose it could quit if it tried to access an instruction too far forward too - skip-to-end for instance
20:47:40 <kipple> why not just quit when the end of code is reached? like most langs
20:48:01 <Wildhalcyon> That's basically what I was trying to say just now
20:48:32 <Wildhalcyon> except that since skip can take negative jump values (in order to actually loop), I need to have it do SOMETHING for negative instructions
20:50:00 <kipple> how is the source code supposed to look? are the syntax for comments? is whitespace instructions or ignored?
20:50:34 <kipple> i.e. is CRCRCRLF just whitespace, or an i operator?
20:51:03 <Wildhalcyon> Source code is defined (arbitrarily) as a set of symbols - minimum of 4.
20:51:14 <Wildhalcyon> The implementation can define what a symbol is or is not.
20:51:26 <kipple> then it is nice to have a NOP :)
20:51:44 <kipple> though nice may not be what you're aiming for here...
20:52:27 <Wildhalcyon> For instance, I could make an interpreter in which any BF commands are considered "symbols" while any other ASCII characters are ignored
20:52:49 <Wildhalcyon> Im not aiming for "nice", Im aiming for interesting.
20:53:09 <jix> use an image for storing symbols
20:53:47 <jix> and a good code + any image => code-image would be possible
20:54:30 <Wildhalcyon> I wanted to use aaaa as NOP because same-symbols sets are common and boring
20:55:02 <jix> what about saying the stack items have to be 32-or-larger bit signed integers
20:58:11 <kipple> agreed. (incidentally that's exactly what I have put in the update of the Kipple spec)
21:00:00 <jix> i'm going to implement it now
21:00:35 <Wildhalcyon> Are you going to use that symbol->instruction table
21:02:02 <Wildhalcyon> Hmmm, okay. I guess it'll be set in stone now then.
21:03:06 <kipple> btw, I don't understand why you can't have instructions like cbaa etc...
21:03:39 <Wildhalcyon> Each instruction resets the symbol definitions
21:03:51 <kipple> it's just a bit alien this conecept :)
21:04:01 <kipple> (that is a good thing by the way)
21:04:10 <jix> def get_instruction(string);string.tr(string.reverse,"dcba");end
21:04:11 <Wildhalcyon> Im basing this off of Udage, it's GOING to be alien to everyone
21:04:23 <jix> converts a 4 byte string to a "aaba" like string
21:05:04 <Wildhalcyon> Are you doing the bf-instruction == symbol, other ASCII == comment idea, or something else?
21:05:17 <kipple> anyway, I take back my previous statement that a BF interpreter would be 'trivial'!
21:05:40 <jix> no i'm doing the straight ascii => glypho conversion
21:05:44 <jix> without comments
21:09:09 <Wildhalcyon> Its got a fairly novel instruction set too, gives it its own... flavor?
21:10:30 <jix> abca abcb << is wrong
21:10:43 <jix> abac not abca
21:11:56 <jix> if i pop from the empty steck.. 0 or error?
21:12:00 <kipple> I think a shorthand notation-to-glypho converter will be essential to any programmer :)
21:12:18 <jix> makes implementation easier
21:12:42 <jix> kipple: but it won't work with reverse mode
21:13:07 <kipple> depends on how reverse mode works
21:13:21 <kipple> does it work on symbol level or instruction level?
21:13:30 <Wildhalcyon> The instruction set will have to be rearranged and changed to work at the symbol level adequately
21:13:56 <Wildhalcyon> Im working on a set of reversible instructions (increment and decrement come into play) - but this was before Jix pointed out the lack of a test operator
21:15:23 <Wildhalcyon> If you refresh the file, I think I fixed the abca abcb problem (replaced it with abac abcb)
21:17:27 <jix> does test pop?
21:17:51 <jix> the documentation says no
21:19:33 <jix> i don't know
21:19:37 <jix> i think it shouldn't
21:19:52 <kipple> it's just a matter of taste, I think. Both should work
21:20:21 <Wildhalcyon> It depends on what you're going to use more - if you want to keep and use the value often, then dont pop, if you're not going to use it much after the test pop is better
21:20:50 <jix> i implemented don't pop
21:21:21 <Wildhalcyon> I'll rewrite the spec in a bit to make that more clear
21:21:44 <jix> 1d+d+d+1d++ is 10 right?
21:21:55 <kipple> if all the other instructions causes a pop you might want to pop just for consitency
21:22:07 <jix> kipple: it's an esolang
21:22:21 <jix> no need for consistency *g*
21:22:47 <kipple> I did say *might*... :)
21:23:16 <jix> aabb ..... t
21:23:19 <jix> should be d instead of t
21:24:25 <Wildhalcyon> Im sorry, that was a temporary error - its fixed now
21:24:37 <Wildhalcyon> back when I was debating between eliminating d and q.
21:27:39 <jix> interpreter done (in ruby)
21:27:51 <kipple> an I right that when you reverse symbol flow with r you get a completely different set of instructions as the 4 symbols are read backwards?
21:28:53 <Wildhalcyon> I think right now, it just reverses instruction flow
21:28:57 <jix> i implemented reversed instructions
21:29:10 <jix> but it's easy to change it back
21:29:23 <jix> ok i'll change it to act like it
21:29:31 <Wildhalcyon> Well, if I ever implement rGlypho (reversible glypho)
21:29:48 <Wildhalcyon> I'll probably have it reverse the entire set of symbols.
21:30:17 <kipple> if reverse is on symbol level, then it would be nice to have "opposite" instructions being exactly opposite.
21:30:29 <kipple> i.e. < is abaa and > is aaba
21:31:03 <kipple> though there might not be too many such pais
21:31:11 <jix> this is a working example for printing "\n" 011000110111001101110011011101100011011101110010
21:31:27 <Wildhalcyon> there are 4 instruction pairs, 7 "non-reversing" instructions
21:31:57 <jix> it's ascii
21:32:03 <jix> but i only needed a and b
21:32:18 <jix> and i decided to use 1 and 0 for it
21:32:26 <jix> one could write everything wiht 1 I i and |
21:33:59 <Wildhalcyon> a and b are the primary symbols, c and d are used a lot less
21:34:21 <jix> 0OoQ would work too
21:34:34 <jix> using 0 and O as primary symbols
21:35:17 <Wildhalcyon> it just depends on how obfuscated you want your code to look
21:35:23 <jix> np: Metallica - Am I Evil (bonus track) [ Kill 'Em All ]
21:36:11 <jix> am i evil -- yes i am
21:37:48 <Wildhalcyon> How hard would it be for you to rearrange the symbol->instruction table in your program?
21:40:12 <jix> pretty easy
21:40:50 <Wildhalcyon> I've rearranged them to "vaguely" reflect the symmetry in some of the instructions
21:45:08 <jix> ok changed it
21:45:41 <jix> http://www.harderweb.de/jix/glypho.rb
21:49:02 <jix> it's not clean ruby code
21:49:28 <jix> the first 2 lines are.. ugh
21:52:12 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht").
21:53:06 <Wildhalcyon> I guess I'll have to work out a hello world example
21:54:05 <Wildhalcyon> I wonder if his implementation ignores whitespace. I doubt it...
21:54:21 -!- grim_ has joined.
21:57:56 <grim_> seems like my connection problems have sorted themselves out
22:08:55 <grim_> what's the language?
22:09:15 * grim_ must have missed that one
22:09:26 <Wildhalcyon> Im having trouble writing a freakin' loop!
22:09:36 <Wildhalcyon> I wrote it today. Just posted it to the wiki a bit ago
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22:14:12 <grim_> looks like it should be
22:14:26 <grim_> but that jump instruction is a horror
22:15:50 <grim_> so you want to test positive, multiply by n+c, negate, then skip
22:17:07 <Wildhalcyon> Im trying to think of a way to write a loop that outputs elements until it reaches a 0
22:18:56 <Wildhalcyon> Glypho, my brand new state of the art headache language
22:20:13 <grim_> putting arbitrary numbers on the stack isn't easy eh?
22:20:35 <Wildhalcyon> Its not, but it could be worse. This isn't bf
22:21:03 <Arrogant> Here's the latest sample from my BF extension
22:21:10 <Arrogant> {sub:>*<[->-<]>}+++++++++++++++%>+++++{sub}!
22:22:07 <Wildhalcyon> that moves to the next element, tests if its greater than 0, if it is (and gets a 1 on the stack), it multiplies 1 by -16 and skips 16 instructions back, conveniently to the start of the loop
22:22:16 <Wildhalcyon> except that I forgot to output the character!
22:24:18 <grim_> won't be easy to prove turing complete
22:25:19 <grim_> an arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point isn't straightforward
22:26:17 <grim_> but it still feels like it should be...
22:26:27 <Wildhalcyon> the stack manipulation is at least, I know that
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22:29:56 <Wildhalcyon> brb, gonna grab a snack and think about this...
22:33:48 <Wildhalcyon> Alright, Im really not liking this looping behavior
22:35:22 <Wildhalcyon> If I change the skip and test instructions to be matching braces (like bf) then its much easier
22:39:11 <grim_> easy isn't everything
22:39:29 <grim_> make it too easy and it's no fun
22:40:01 <Wildhalcyon> True, but I think the language offers enough *unique* challenges to still be difficult to program in
22:40:53 <Wildhalcyon> especially considering aaaabbbbccccdddd is 4 NOP instructions while ababcdcdefefgigi is four dup operations in the SAME program
22:41:26 <grim_> mneme is at the other end of the spectrum, the instruction set is too easy and it's too easy to seperate code from data
22:41:40 <grim_> so it's not fun yet
22:42:32 <grim_> whereas glypho looks like a hair-puller
22:43:29 <Wildhalcyon> In order to put a 0 on the stack, you have to type 11-+
22:44:13 <grim_> yes, that is a bit nuts
22:44:50 <Wildhalcyon> so if *maybe* I change my loops to be slightly.. conventional... I think I deserve at least a bit of slack...
22:46:59 <grim_> loops are self-referential in construction, that is nasty
22:46:59 <Wildhalcyon> Anyhow, I guess I'll have to let jix know later, since his interpreter doesn't support "easy" looping
22:47:31 <grim_> the number you have to create in the loop changes the pattern of the loop code
22:47:31 <kipple> I think we need a new language category for the wiki for these pattern-based langs
22:48:05 <grim_> and hence changes the number you have to make in the loop!
22:48:15 <grim_> that's blinding XD
22:48:15 <Wildhalcyon> Okay, so here's "Hello" in Glypho shorthand: 1d+d*dddd**++d1d+d*d*1d+*111++-++d1d+dd**1-++dd111+++11-+<[o<]!
22:48:36 <lindi-> hrm, 'blinding' indeed.. maybe i should fix my hilight
22:49:13 <grim_> yes, I think it's hilarious, but it's got definite implications for TCness
22:49:34 <Wildhalcyon> I think so too, hence my decision to use the BF-style braces
22:50:26 <Wildhalcyon> man.. I hope that code doesn't have any typos in it
22:50:48 <grim_> it's a fair call, have to see how it works out
22:51:19 <grim_> I've got to go anyway
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22:55:02 <Wildhalcyon> I'll try to have a C/C++ implemenmtation later tonight
23:10:28 <Sgep> n00b's (read:my) attempt to design something: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Sgeo/binbf
23:12:00 <Wildhalcyon> And take a look at Spoon before you get too far
23:12:50 <Sgep> AFAIK, Spoon doesn't have RLE
23:13:49 <Sgep> "We need some general and straightforward method to transmit symbols which are not yet transmitted (NYT)" --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptive_Huffman_coding
23:17:42 <Sgep> Oh, and incidentally, it's not designed to be coded in directly, although that is possible
23:19:44 <Wildhalcyon> Actually, Glypho isnt really designed to be coded in period
23:19:50 <Wildhalcyon> but I think thats fairly common among esolangs
23:36:14 <Wildhalcyon> Hmmm, its amazing how NICE those braces make everything
23:36:31 <Wildhalcyon> I don't think the Glypho would be TC without [ and ]
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00:05:45 <Wildhalcyon> Glypho Fibonacci number generator: 11#[>>d<d>+<\<1-+] (Where # is a stack element that is set to the number of terms to generate)
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04:14:51 <Sgep> Be back tomorrow
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07:16:49 <Arrogant> Adding a stack to this thing was a great success
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13:25:10 <jix> np: Kyuss - Supa Scoopa and Mighty Scoop [ Welcome To Sky Valley ]
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15:39:41 <ihope> There, I just executed an IRP instruction: NOP
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17:12:32 <Wildhalcyon> The previous incarnation of Glypho was too tarpit for me, Ive had to make some changes. I might be making some additional ones soon as well.
17:18:27 <grim_> wh: which one are you talking about?
17:18:35 <grim_> the [...] braces one?
17:18:43 <grim_> or the one before?
17:19:57 <Wildhalcyon> I've thought about modifying the arithmetic to be more "brainfuckish" - push-1 becomes push-0, add becomes increment, negate becomes decrement.. and multiply disappears (leaving me with an additional instruction)
17:20:23 <jix> that's too brainfuckish imo
17:20:48 <kipple> that was a response to WildHalcyon, not jix, btw
17:21:20 <Wildhalcyon> It also makes more sense from the point of view of the "push" function - pushing an empty cell, ready to accept input
17:21:32 <jix> Wildhalcyon: no you can create every number in the form 2^a+2^b+2^c => 1d+d+d+...1d+d+d+...1d+d+d+..+++...
17:22:44 <Wildhalcyon> I suppose that is easier than the BF "add til' you get there" number functions
17:23:07 <Wildhalcyon> Jix, did you read about the reasoning behind adding the brackets?
17:23:51 <kipple> I think the brackets are good. The main brainburner will be having only a stack anyways
17:24:01 <grim_> you can already do bf-ish 111111+++++
17:25:42 <Wildhalcyon> I think you can also perform BF multiplication by doing 111++-1>[<11++>1+] which should multiply 2*3?
17:26:46 <grim_> yes, where is the problem?
17:27:24 <Wildhalcyon> I don't know, really. Im being wishy-washy I suppose. Glypho is good, I am happy with its creation
17:27:49 <Wildhalcyon> Next step is to create a program that takes glypho "shorthand" and converts it to a symbol string
17:28:22 <Wildhalcyon> preferably not just a static aabbabbaabcaabab etc. but one that used multiple symbols from an alphabetic set
17:29:34 <grim_> shouldn't be hard either
17:29:51 <grim_> but I've work to do :(
17:29:56 <kipple> btwm shouldn't the [ and ] patterns be opposites?
17:30:06 <Wildhalcyon> not really, not with a decent PRNG, and I have work to do this week too
17:30:35 <Wildhalcyon> I only swapped out "skip" and "test" with "[" and "]"
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17:37:20 <Wildhalcyon> and I've written a few example functions - fibonacci and cat
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17:39:24 <kipple> cat is nice and short :)
17:39:36 <Wildhalcyon> and aside from swapping symbols with bf, its identical
17:40:42 <kipple> what happens if you start a program with a [ ?
17:41:11 <jix> if it pops.. yes
17:41:31 <jix> how does [ work exactly ?
17:41:31 <kipple> [ doesn't pop, I think. only peek
17:41:47 <jix> ok.. if it peeks a negative value does it loop forever?
17:41:59 <kipple> but what happens when you pop or peek at an empty stack?
17:46:22 <kipple> hehe. sure. just couldn't find anything about it in the spec...
17:46:55 <kipple> ah. found it. but it says it is NOT an error
17:47:20 <kipple> jix: "popping from an empty stack is a NOP"
17:47:46 * Wildhalcyon was unfortunately tired and ambiguous last night during the creation of Glypho
17:48:21 <kipple> now that you have an instruction that peeks, it is even more unclear :D
17:49:50 <kipple> the simple solution is of course to invoke the old "undefined behavior"
17:50:59 <Wildhalcyon> ah... ambiguous behavior wrapped inside a wonderful ambiguous statement
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17:53:53 <Wildhalcyon> "Any actions which pop or otherwise manipulate the stack while it is empty have an undefined behavior and should be frowned upon at all times"
17:54:56 <Wildhalcyon> I wonder how trivial it is to prove that this language is TC...
17:55:35 <kipple> hmm. manipulating the stack would include pushing... and you'll want to push to an ampty stack ;)
17:55:52 <lindi-> Wildhalcyon: relatively trivial, just show that you can emulate a turing machine
17:57:37 <Wildhalcyon> That's what I thought lindi. I think I can emulate one, I just have to demonstrate it. I've proved it can loop, I guess I should prove it can have an arbitrary-length tape
17:58:54 <lindi-> Wildhalcyon: that's actually depends on how you define turing completeness. if you absolutely require infinite tape then very few languages support that
17:59:23 <Wildhalcyon> Well, TC never said inifinite tape - just long enough to do whatever job you wanted to do with it.
17:59:41 <lindi-> i thought it said infinite tape, wait a sec. i'll check
17:59:41 <kipple> strictly speaking TC requires an infinite tape
17:59:59 <kipple> I think the definition of a Turing machine includes an infinite tape
18:00:04 <Wildhalcyon> I was under the assumption that TC just required a tape that could be ANY length
18:00:19 <lindi-> indeed. in computability theory sense
18:00:22 <kipple> but the stack in Glyph is infinite, so I don't think that's a problem
18:00:36 <lindi-> "While such machines may be physically impossible as they require unlimited storage, Turing completeness is often loosely attributed to physical machines or programming languages that would be universal if they had indefinitely enlargeable storage. "
18:00:43 <Wildhalcyon> in fact, any task which REQUIRES infinite tape is not computable on a turing machine
18:00:43 <lindi-> kipple: stack isn't a tape
18:01:08 <Wildhalcyon> lindi, my stack can be modeled as a piece of tape with the ends tied together
18:01:08 <lindi-> so, you can still make it "loosely TC"
18:01:18 <lindi-> that's not stack anymore then
18:01:34 <Wildhalcyon> Well then, no. Its not a stack. Its a circular linked list
18:01:48 <Wildhalcyon> But pushing and popping are done on a stack-like basis
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18:02:05 <lindi-> Wildhalcyon: is the spec online somewhere?
18:02:14 <Wildhalcyon> The fact that sometimes it enqueues its head onto its tail is... crazy
18:02:59 <Wildhalcyon> I think I'll nickname the stack-list monstrosity as "ouroborous" (sp?) since it eats its own tail
18:05:03 <Wildhalcyon> Some people Ive shown it to have trouble understanding how the symbols within the instructions work. I've had trouble explaining it.
18:05:48 <grim_> what have they found difficult? the whole context-free wxyz thing?
18:06:00 <kipple> I had some troubles with it myself at first :)
18:06:21 <Wildhalcyon> Mostly the fact that the "a" for instruction 1 does not necessarily equal the "a" for any other instruction
18:06:52 <kipple> you might want to use other symbols than letters
18:07:03 <kipple> though I'm not sure which
18:07:10 <lindi-> Wildhalcyon: in fact, i'm not sure if glypho is tc or not
18:08:38 <Wildhalcyon> We'll find out. I'll work on trying to implement bf instructions in it
18:09:25 <grim_> it seems to me that you can get TC-ness with a couple of bits of string and some PVA glue these days
18:10:06 <Wildhalcyon> tell me about it grim. I'll be pretty peeved if wang tiles can out-TC my glypho language
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18:47:17 <Wildhalcyon> Hmm, I can't find the sequence {1,2,5,15,50...} in the integer sequence database
18:47:58 <Wildhalcyon> Although its possible I counted wrong on n=6 :-(
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19:11:14 <Wildhalcyon> "Word structures of length n using a 6-ary alphabet. Permuting the alphabet will not change a word structure. Thus aabc and bbca have the same structure."
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19:12:45 <kipple> are you having an identity crisis today jix? ;)
19:13:54 <jix> no... a bad network connection
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20:19:50 * jix is going to continue coding his homepage
20:26:15 <jix> np: Metallica - Am I Evil (bonus track) [ Kill 'Em All ]
20:30:00 <jix> am i evil -- yes i am ..
20:42:04 <jix> np: Metallica - Anesthesia (Pulling Teeth) [ Kill 'Em All ]
20:53:49 <kipple> hmm. is there an esolang based on pirate lingo? http://ldc.upenn.edu/myl/llog/piratekeyboard.jpg
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22:38:14 <grim_> 18:35 < Wildhalcyon> Hmm, I can't find the sequence {1,2,5,15,50...} in the integer sequence database
22:38:29 <grim_> there's an integer sequence database?
22:43:18 <Sgep> Any comments on http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Sgeo/binbf
22:45:30 * Sgep goes to clarify something
22:58:33 <grim_> do you have an implementation?
23:12:24 * Sgep might write an implementation right up to the point before the Huffman encoding is actually done
23:12:29 <Sgep> Not now though
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03:10:11 <Wildhalcyon> grim: There IS an online integer sequence database. You'll commonly (if you look at mathematical sequences often) find references to "Sloane's Sequence" with a label A followed by a number.
03:10:16 <Wildhalcyon> check out: http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/
03:12:39 <Wildhalcyon> The sequence for "Word structures of length n using an n-ary alphabet" is given by the Bell number sequence http://www.research.att.com/cgi-bin/access.cgi/as/njas/sequences/eisA.cgi?Anum=A000110
03:13:22 <Wildhalcyon> It's also the number of possible rhyming schemes for an n-line poem
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03:31:07 <Wildhalcyon> Check out the wiki entry on the sequence database: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-Line_Encyclopedia_of_Integer_Sequences
03:31:19 <Wildhalcyon> The database provides some good sequences that could be generated as proof-of-concept in esolangs too
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03:37:35 <Wildhalcyon> I have a friend who's a pirate. I showed him that keyboard - he complained that it didn't look very ergonomic, but the easy-to-find pirate-keys were a big plus
03:37:45 <Wildhalcyon> Yeah, its one of those "glad the internet is around for this" type things
03:38:06 <kipple> yes, the pirate keyboard could be designed better
03:38:19 <kipple> the keys are too small and too close to each other for people with hooks
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04:14:00 * Wildhalcyon is very distracted with the integer sequence database right now, learning about Glypho sequences
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04:35:15 <Wildhalcyon> no working implementation yet (the one posted on the wiki is incorrect - which is my fault, not Jix's)
04:37:39 <Wildhalcyon> as far as I know, there's nothing posted at wikipedia
04:40:15 <kipple> Arrogant: the number one esoteric resource: http://esolangs.org/wiki/
04:42:23 <kipple> there has been some debate on the works in progress. see http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Talk:Works_in_progress
04:43:45 <Wildhalcyon> Im down with it too - in fact, I have a WIP that I posted there (which is not Glypho, although until I get an implementation, Glypho should be viewed as a WIP too... but the syntax is finalized finally!!!)
04:44:31 <Arrogant> My specification is done and there's a complete Python implementation
04:44:57 <kipple> well, then don't post it under Works in progress. put it in the proper language list!
04:44:59 <Arrogant> I'm just working on a "standard library"
04:45:28 <Arrogant> I should come up with a better name though
04:45:37 <Arrogant> Because it was Brainfuck with functions
04:45:53 <kipple> what else have you added?
04:46:02 <Arrogant> For independent memory arrays/pointers
04:46:12 <Arrogant> As well as operators for walking up and down a scope tree
04:48:55 <kipple> gotta get some sleep. night all
04:49:01 <Arrogant> I think it's somewhat respectable
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04:50:20 <Wildhalcyon> I had trouble coming up with a good language name myself
04:52:06 <Arrogant> http://paragon.pastebin.com/368704
04:54:44 <Wildhalcyon> ascii.bf is just the ascii code for the characters then?
04:54:54 <Arrogant> Pushes characters onto the stack.
04:55:24 <Arrogant> {H}{e}{l}{l}{o}{COMMA}{SPACE}{w}{o}{r}{l}{d}{EXCLAM}{reverse}{print}
04:55:39 <Arrogant> (n instructions) is the new scope operator
04:55:53 <Arrogant> Creates a new scope before executing those instructions
04:56:07 <Arrogant> Independent memory array and pointer
04:56:42 <Arrogant> Scopes have a parent scope too
04:56:54 <Wildhalcyon> Alright, so every time you write (n stuff n' junk) you get a new memory array.. err.. stack?
04:57:06 <Arrogant> So you can use (u code) for executing in the parent scope
04:57:46 <Arrogant> I came up with new ideas when I was writing it
04:57:52 <Wildhalcyon> I understand - I went from having a 'skip' function to bf-like brackets last night, it was MADNESS!
04:59:01 <Wildhalcyon> I've thought up a pretty nice bf-style stack-based language while I was doing it. I'll probably post a link to it on the glypho webpage (when I make it), but I doubt I'll make an esolang wiki article on it.
04:59:41 <Arrogant> Alright, I'll write up a spec now.
05:00:35 <Arrogant> Mine's TC because Brainfuck is.
05:05:51 <Arrogant> I'll name my language Synesthesia
05:06:53 <Wildhalcyon> a little long, but quirky so you get bonus points
05:07:35 <Arrogant> Synesthesia is a psychological condition, look it up on Wikipedia, it's pretty awesome.
05:08:29 <Wildhalcyon> Ah, yes, that one. I read about it in discover once.. a man described a piano as sounding "blue".
05:09:10 <Wildhalcyon> I hate that psychological condition, which sounds harsh, but its out of jealousy - I'll never understand what color things sound like.
05:09:33 <Arrogant> Of course, I'm not jealous of people who see colors as pain.
05:11:01 <Wildhalcyon> Good point. Maybe I should count my blessings
05:27:06 <Arrogant> http://paragon.pastebin.com/368728 Feel free to ask questions if it's not clear
05:28:20 <Wildhalcyon> when pushing the current value onto the stack, does it remove that value?
05:28:40 <Arrogant> It's been decided between me and my partner in esotericity that that would be a total bitch.
05:28:58 <Arrogant> You'd have to do |%* in order to keep a value in that case
05:29:06 <Wildhalcyon> so n is local, u is used for.. cheap parameter passing?... and t is global?
05:29:21 <Arrogant> u is used for accessing data in the parent scope
05:29:27 <Arrogant> Something you don't do in normal languages
05:29:53 <Wildhalcyon> Well, in Glypho you have to do 11-+ in order to put 0 on the top of the stack
05:30:19 <Wildhalcyon> sometimes esotericity provides curious instruction requirements
05:31:15 <Arrogant> It's difficult enough as it is :D
05:31:18 <Arrogant> {reverse:(n>(n?[(u*>)?])<[<]>[|>])}
05:32:10 <Wildhalcyon> yes, but after that I just have to call (reverse) right?
05:34:41 <Wildhalcyon> here's the ouroboros spec: www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/ouroboros.txt
05:34:42 <Arrogant> The most straightforward "Hello, world!" making use of the stdlib is (iascii)(istackops){H}{e}{l}{l}{o}{COMMA}{SPACE}{w}{o}{r}{l}{d}{EXCLAM}{reverse}{print}
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05:35:14 <Wildhalcyon> Its essentially similar to Glypho, except using increment and decrement - easier to prove TC in, perhaps, but Glypho can implement increment and decrement similarly
05:35:31 <Wildhalcyon> Yeah, those ascii.bf stdlib functions are nice
05:36:45 <Arrogant> I'm thinking that the language is just too complex for it's own good
05:37:04 <Arrogant> Also, I'd advise against using a letter for an instruction if you're allowing Brainfuck style comments
05:38:47 <Arrogant> Ouroborus is so much more elegant than mine
05:39:21 <Wildhalcyon> Well, part of that, I think, is that your language gets bogged down by... higher level stuff (like scope). High-level == bad
05:39:42 <Arrogant> Subroutines would be rather useless without it
05:40:04 <Arrogant> I think that the way that the scopes are implemented makes them fairly disgusting to use
05:40:28 <Arrogant> There's scopes AND subroutines AND stack AND array AND etc
05:41:04 <Wildhalcyon> Well, the stack + array concept isn't bad necessarily. Very similar to real machines that have a stack and registers and memory
05:42:02 <Arrogant> All of it put together makes it far too easy to do things
05:42:43 <Arrogant> Takes two characters from input and outputs the sum of their codes.
05:43:31 <Arrogant> Obviously this is much harder to do in other things
05:44:20 <Wildhalcyon> Not all esolangs make it HARD to do things
05:45:00 <Arrogant> I suppose that it was my intention to not make it hard to do things
05:45:05 <Wildhalcyon> the problem with your language though, is that its too easy to do things without ever touching the underlying code. With enough subroutines you could write code in your language that looked entirely readable
05:46:23 <Arrogant> I could do away with subroutines and make it entirely difficult again.
05:47:12 <Arrogant> The source code for the thing is 400 lines long too
05:47:17 <Wildhalcyon> Well, its not necessarily BAD either though...
05:48:24 <Wildhalcyon> I think a better system might be in-line definition of subroutines with a fixed symbol set (probably all capital &/| lowercase letters)
05:48:52 <Arrogant> I think I'll leave it as it is.
05:49:03 <Wildhalcyon> alrighty, it really is your call after all
05:49:08 <Arrogant> I won't bother posting it on the wiki I don't think though
05:49:54 <Arrogant> First however I will write a Brainfuck interpreter in it.
05:50:55 <Wildhalcyon> Anyhow, I wanted to get to bed an hour ago.. so I better get to bed now
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07:47:49 <Wildhalcyon> Looks like last year, someone wrote a master's thesis level paper on the very same string-structures that compose glypho.
07:48:19 <Wildhalcyon> Yet, here I am, composing Glypho for fun - even coming up with the ideas within it arbitrarily - in order to get AWAY from the research leading to my master's thesis.
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17:18:38 <jix> np: Metallica - Am I Evil (bonus track) [ Kill 'Em All ]
17:21:20 <kipple> you seem to really like that song :)
17:22:13 <jix> but i like other songs too
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20:20:57 <nooga> who knows javascript well?
20:22:51 <nooga> http://nooga.kewlnet.int.pl/magnets.php << it works under IE, but not under mozillas
20:23:13 <jix> and under khtmls?
20:23:17 <nooga> i can't manage myself to make it 100% compliant
20:23:38 <jix> do you want drag and drop?
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20:24:11 <jix> you have to write a version for every browser
20:24:14 <jix> because none is compliant
20:24:37 <nooga> and that's my problem
20:24:42 <nooga> i don't know javascript
20:27:34 <jix> nooga: maybe http://script.aculo.us/ helps
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20:47:36 <kipple> wildhalcyon: about Glypho. What gets pushed on EOF?
21:45:52 <kipple> when you read from input
21:46:26 <kipple> so it's up to the interpreter?
21:46:53 <kipple> then you get the same problem as brainfuck
21:47:04 <kipple> that programs that depend on input are not portable
21:47:32 <Wildhalcyon> thats true of almost all languages to a varying degree
21:47:52 <kipple> no. you can just say that on EOF a 0 (or -1) is pushed
21:48:32 <Wildhalcyon> but even the idea of "eof" is outside of the confines of the language
21:50:39 <Wildhalcyon> I suppose I could say that, but it goes against my thinking for the language
21:51:33 <kipple> any news on a working interpreter?
21:52:03 <Wildhalcyon> Not this week. I'm busy with my "real" research
21:52:19 <kipple> I have been thinking about a brainfuck to glypho compiler, but it's a bit hard to test without an interpreter :)
21:53:58 <kipple> probably wont have time to finish it this week anyway
21:54:09 <Wildhalcyon> I'll try to get one asap. It'll probably be written in C
21:55:14 <kipple> actually it'll probably be brainfuck to glypho shorthand
21:56:25 <Wildhalcyon> Well, the interpreter is going to be able to accept both shorthand and full-glypho
21:57:05 <kipple> could I request a debugging feature to display the contents of the stack as well? :)
21:57:20 <Wildhalcyon> I also want to write a quick shorthand-to-full-glypho compiler
21:57:49 <Wildhalcyon> You could, I'll check with the project management team about potentially including it
21:58:50 <Wildhalcyon> Well, in order for me to consider the shorthand-to-full-glypho compiler valid, it has to be able to take a set of symbols and randomly use them in the full glypho
22:00:00 <Wildhalcyon> its still not hard though, but it won't just encode them as abcd
22:00:42 <kipple> hehe. a really cool feature would be to have the resulting code appear as proper english :)
22:03:30 <Wildhalcyon> I thought about that, but it's pretty difficult for instructions like aaab and abbb
22:03:46 <kipple> whitespace could be the key
22:08:08 <Wildhalcyon> I shall dwell on it further. For now, I am once again off to work. You have given me much to think about while I slave over my drudgery...
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03:25:05 <Arrogant> I've failed in writing Brainfuck in Synesthesia
03:25:11 <Arrogant> I don't know how to implement the loops
03:25:55 <Arrogant> http://paragon.pastebin.com/368728
03:26:12 <Wildhalcyon> Kipple posed me an interesting problem about writing a Glypho program that resembled natural english. I think for duplicate symbols (such as aaab and abbb) I'll use multiple spaces to cheat
03:27:50 <Arrogant> Because it has to read the instructions from a stream.
03:28:03 <Arrogant> I've got an idea on how to do it. It's complicated though.
03:28:32 <Wildhalcyon> Oh, you mean writing a bf interpreter in synesthesia?
03:33:49 <Wildhalcyon> Which should tell you that yours probably won't be beautiful either.
03:35:07 <Wildhalcyon> Do you know of any english words that begin with a double letter?
03:36:45 <Wildhalcyon> hmmmnow I need a word that looks like: abcbc
03:36:50 <kipple> awib is awesome by the way :)
03:39:21 <kipple> you need a dictionary and a pattern search program
03:39:40 <Wildhalcyon> lol, unfortunately, I dont have linux here at home
03:40:27 <Wildhalcyon> so far, my program looks like: "oops I queued a good "
03:40:53 <Wildhalcyon> notice the large number of x3 spaces? That's unfortunate
03:41:40 <Wildhalcyon> If I encode ouroboros in Glypho, I could eliminate the abbb and aaab symbol combinations as NOPs and never use them (which is why I made aaaa a NOP)
03:43:42 <Wildhalcyon> You could easily encode glypho in rhyming quatrains
03:44:39 <Arrogant> To programatically identify English rhymes :D
03:45:08 <Wildhalcyon> Not too hard... I could probably write a script to do it with a fixed set of rhyming word endings
03:46:43 <Wildhalcyon> so it will randomly pick a rhyming set of words for each a, b, c
03:46:53 <Wildhalcyon> It's not REAL creative to do it automatically, but it could do it
03:47:31 <Arrogant> I see what you mean now. You meant generate it.
03:48:09 <Wildhalcyon> right. Each word predefined with the set of words that it rhymed to
03:48:51 <kipple> Arrogant: about Synesthesia... Can you have only one array within a scope?
03:48:54 <Wildhalcyon> so thou would be in the set {thou, how, cow, bow, frau...} and we'll put you in with {do, loo, rue, moo...}
03:51:18 <kipple> does subroutines have a permanent scope, or is it reinitialized on every call
03:53:28 <Arrogant> Subroutines don't have a scope unless you create one
03:53:33 <Arrogant> In which case it is created on each call
03:53:47 <kipple> I've been thinking about what you said about the bf-interpreter
03:53:51 <Arrogant> Or you could create a scope and call the subroutine from within
03:55:05 <Wildhalcyon> I have "oops I queued a" still, "oops I queued a deed..." maybe
03:56:08 <Wildhalcyon> Im trying to encode the fibonacci generator: aabc abab abab abbb abbb abba aabc abab abaa abab aaba abab aabb abab abbb abcd
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03:57:34 <Arrogant> Wildhalcyon: They can be any word that matches the schemes?
03:57:59 <kipple> arrogant: the solution to the looping problem is to first store the entire source code, so you don't have to read it from a stream
03:58:37 <Wildhalcyon> arrogant: actually, they can breech word boundaries if you like - spaces count as symbols
03:58:43 <kipple> ok. sounded like you had given up
03:59:24 <Arrogant> That makes it slightly more complicated
03:59:25 <Wildhalcyon> If spaces don't count as symbols then the problem is tricker, because i/o use abbb and aaab
04:00:00 <kipple> but if spaces are ignored then you can use stuff like abb b
04:01:05 <kipple> I'd say ignoring spaces makes it a lot easier
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04:06:49 <GregorR> I have returned, as foretold by prophecy!
04:09:45 <Wildhalcyon> Weren't you the one foretold to bring chips & dip to the next festive gathering?
04:09:49 <calamari> hmm, gregordamus.. does that mean you'll only be taken seriously, by crackpots, after you're dead?
04:10:11 <GregorR> The irony being that that too was foretold by prophecy.
04:10:27 <GregorR> Umm ... new release of OBLISK! Nothing on the esoteric front however :-P
04:10:42 <kipple> I meant that as a response to calamari
04:10:45 <Wildhalcyon> if I discount whitespace, but count "punctuation" (such as ellipsis), it helps a bit.
04:11:04 <GregorR> http://oblisk.codu.org/ (/me gives himself one shameless plug point)
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04:12:03 <kipple> GregorR: bad news. looks like ORK wasn't the first OO esolang after all... http://web.archive.org/web/20041015023918/http://www.inz.info/pingpong/Tutorial.html#oop
04:12:08 <GregorR> Why was I just not in the channel ...
04:12:24 <GregorR> kipple: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *sobs*
04:13:04 <GregorR> Also, "turing complete" is a necessary part of that definition.
04:13:26 <GregorR> Because I'm sure there are all sorts of worthless OO joke languages :-P
04:14:05 <calamari> GregorR: interesting.. I'm working on a package manager for school research
04:15:45 <lament> what is the meaning of life?
04:16:39 <Arrogant> 42 is the answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything.
04:17:14 <GregorR> Life (n): The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.
04:17:23 <Arrogant> GregorR: That's the definition.
04:17:29 <Arrogant> Meaning and definition are wholly different.
04:17:46 <Arrogant> No, the meaning of life is expressed in eight instructions: +-><[].,
04:17:53 <calamari> gregor: so what is the definition of meaning?
04:18:15 <GregorR> calamari: I was just looking that up ;)
04:20:30 <Wildhalcyon> I think Im typing myself into a corner here...
04:23:59 <Arrogant> I think I'll drop writing a Brainfuck interpreter in Synesthesia
04:24:18 <Arrogant> I'll write a new language instead.
04:26:32 <kipple> you could browse the categories on the wiki, and see which categories have few languages
04:26:54 <kipple> then it's easier to make something different
04:31:44 <Arrogant> My favorite joke language is TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL
04:32:22 <kipple> hehe. that one is cool
04:32:38 <Arrogant> The Multi-Million Language Project To End All Language Projects And Isn't That A Fine Name For A Language
04:33:09 <Wildhalcyon> A more useable version of java2K wouldnt be bad
04:33:41 <Wildhalcyon> or something like that - where the instruction has a probability of executing the instruction properly < 1
04:34:13 <kipple> how about a non-deterministic language with full access to the file system?
04:35:36 <Wildhalcyon> Shoot.. how come my instruction reference doesn't coincide with the freakin' program Im trying to write?!!!
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04:43:31 <Wildhalcyon> Okay, after correcting the mistake, here's what I have so far: "Oops an anti time eel...
04:43:34 <Arrogant> I want to make a language that's not based on a programming concept.
04:43:56 <kipple> what do you consider a programming concept?
04:44:19 <Arrogant> I mean, these elements have to exist.
04:49:47 <kipple> you mean you want to camophlage them as something else?
04:53:33 <Arrogant> I want the language to have a concept that is beyond a technical aspect
04:54:28 <kipple> you mean like Chef or Shakespeare?
04:56:26 <kipple> I often start to think about such themed languages, but I've never finished one
05:07:36 <kipple> hmm. the wiki lacks a category for this kind of languages
05:07:55 <kipple> I'll make one. is Themed an appropriate name?
05:09:42 <kipple> hmm. that might be better
05:11:14 <Wildhalcyon> the problem with the category is the ambiguity of the word "themed"
05:11:31 <kipple> but that will be explained on the category page
05:11:46 <kipple> something like " languages are based on a theme that is not computer related"
05:13:17 <Arrogant> I don't see how that'd even work
05:14:10 <Arrogant> Computer related isn't really a good way to say it
05:14:48 <Arrogant> You could make a thematic language based on computers
05:15:11 <Arrogant> Like, computers as objects or things like that.
05:16:22 <kipple> I'm open to suggestions...
05:16:27 <Wildhalcyon> I thought about implementing a network-headache website that folks could upload their programs onto in order to run them. Ticks would be once every hour.
05:16:28 <Arrogant> Languages that are conceptually defined by a theme as opposed to a programming paradigm.
05:17:27 <Wildhalcyon> Ooh, Arrogant comes out with a winner. Nice job
05:18:19 <kipple> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Category:Thematic
05:18:32 <kipple> current members are Chef, Shakespeare, Taxi and var'aq
05:21:23 <kipple> probably missed a bunch
05:22:31 <Arrogant> Someone should write an implementation of it.
05:23:07 <kipple> DMM makes fun languages
05:27:18 <kipple> TRANSCRIPT is also pretty cool: http://www.corknut.org/code/transcript/samples/fibonacci.txt
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05:46:38 <Arrogant> GregorR: ORK looks a lot like a spec I was writing
05:47:15 <GregorR> Does that mean I beat you in the race? :P
05:48:39 <GregorR> There is such a thing as an esoteric programming language.
05:48:49 <GregorR> An esoteric programming language has an author which is a person.
05:48:54 <GregorR> There is such a thing as a person.
05:49:02 <GregorR> A person has a name which is a phrase.
05:49:12 <GregorR> It would take too long to gloat in ORK.
05:51:18 <GregorR> Tomorrow I buy Moxie soda.
05:51:22 <GregorR> And so, I am in a jovial mood.
05:51:27 <GregorR> For I finally found Moxie.
05:51:44 <Arrogant> There'd better be an interpreter ;)
05:52:14 <GregorR> Feel free to write an interpreter 8-D
05:52:23 <Arrogant> I think I could write an interpreter in Python
05:52:56 <GregorR> Python is not in my repretoire, but from what I know about it it seems like a logical choice.
05:53:21 <Arrogant> Well, I could certainly write the interpreter quickly
06:03:44 <Wildhalcyon> Y'know.. I've seen transcript before, but I never really thought "Hmm, what should I program in it?" and now... hmmm
06:04:16 <Wildhalcyon> Also, Glypho polyglots with almost any other language are terribly terribly easy if you restrict the symbol set. :-D
06:12:46 <Arrogant> GregorR: I think that I'll make it similar to how I made Synesthesia's interpreter.
06:12:56 <Arrogant> Except I'll add Objects to it. Obviously.
06:13:22 <Arrogant> The parser'll produce a list of instructions which are Python objects with a perform method that tells me what they do.
06:13:27 <GregorR> Having no idea what/who Synesthesia is, I'll just nod my head.
06:13:44 <Arrogant> http://paragon.pastebin.com/368728
06:16:21 <Wildhalcyon> Anyhow, more ideas are swimming through my head than I can clearly keep track of; that generally means its night time for me. I'll have some more glypho fluff tomorrow though, to be sure!
06:31:15 <Arrogant> GregorR: FYB also seems pretty awesome.
06:32:55 <Arrogant> It also seems really hard to do :D
06:33:20 <GregorR> jix did pretty well for himself.
06:33:27 <GregorR> Until I DEFEATED HIM UTTERLY!
06:33:31 <GregorR> MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAAH
06:34:50 <lament> anyone knows any 3-player paper-and-pencil games?
06:36:42 <Arrogant> Also, your index page is a 2L program isn't it
06:39:18 <GregorR> lament: If you draw cards on a piece of paper then cut it out, I've got a great one for you!
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14:19:07 <Keymaker> rghhh.. my favourite band's website has been down already a week or something!
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15:07:30 <Keymaker> btw, my language plan isn't ready yet :)
15:08:26 <Keymaker> but there are some things i'll need to think more
15:09:31 <Keymaker> as i've done unnecessary, perhaps that should be called nonnecessary
15:09:32 <Wildhalcyon> sounds strangely like your other language..
15:10:32 <Keymaker> comes from words plan B, but doesn't kinda look like it
15:10:33 <nooga> any examples can you introdouce?
15:10:59 <nooga> cool, it makes it more mysterious >
15:11:09 <Keymaker> (although it should be probably called plan f already..)
15:11:41 <Wildhalcyon> I saw some "sneak peak" syntax about four days ago that involved brackets like ( )... he coulda just been pullin' my leg
15:12:37 <Keymaker> you're clearly suspicious W, but i'll show you someday *evil laugh*
15:13:52 <Keymaker> you're too [some word i forgot], you can't wait for a month!
15:14:11 <Keymaker> when i was young planning an esolang took weeks
15:14:57 <Keymaker> but what i was about to say.. oh; if i'm to keep my current plan, which i think is cool, i will need a nop instruction, that's necessary for the language actually ;)
15:15:18 <Wildhalcyon> the word you're looking for is "impatient", and yes, I am.
15:15:29 <Keymaker> i had no time to look it up ;)
15:16:34 <Keymaker> but when the language is ready i think you will like it..
15:18:59 <kipple> haha. very good point, W
15:19:31 <kipple> that is often true for esolangs
15:19:45 <Keymaker> yes, the relationship to esolangs: i love this language *smashes keyboard* AAAARRGHG! success! this program works!
15:20:43 <Wildhalcyon> Kipple, I havent got a sentence out of glypho yet
15:21:34 <kipple> no, he means wrtiting code that looks like a proper sentence
15:22:48 <Keymaker> that would make nice wiki entry but i've never seen good examples
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16:31:52 <Keymaker> the thematic section in esowiki is nice
16:33:29 <Wildhalcyon> It makes me want to write a themed language
16:34:14 <Keymaker> it has quite many commands iirc..?
16:35:26 <Keymaker> but 15 is quite many compared to many other tar-pits
16:36:37 <Wildhalcyon> A stack tarpit naturally needs more commands than a tape-based tarpit
16:37:16 <Keymaker> i've made a stack tarpit that uses 7 instructions
16:37:36 <Keymaker> or not sure if it can be called stack
16:37:54 <Wildhalcyon> well, Ive had a couple complaints about my stack too
16:40:13 <Keymaker> the memory model is kind of ring, where you can push zero to end to create new value
16:40:32 <Keymaker> loops work the brainfuck way ( )
16:40:43 <Keymaker> and browsing memory works by spinning the ring memory right
16:40:44 <Wildhalcyon> Hmm... darn, Ouroboros wasn't that new after all
16:41:12 <Keymaker> and input and output instructions..
16:42:24 <Wildhalcyon> Im not sure if yours is. My almost exactly-the-same 12-instruction language is (I think). The difference is values are not just 0/1, you can spin either direction, and there's a dup and a swap command
16:42:48 <Wildhalcyon> I guess there's no reason yours couldn't be either
16:43:24 <Keymaker> yeah.. but this perhaps would need eight instruction, something to remove value from stack.. not sure
16:43:35 <Wildhalcyon> Anyhow, Im off to class now Mr. Maker of Keys
16:43:41 <Keymaker> and with wrapping memory cells i could use bytes.
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19:33:00 <wildhalcyon> no one has explained to me what shoopuf is
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19:49:45 <kipple> "Whats a Shoopuf? Play Final Fantasy X or X-2 on the Playstation 2. Seriously,
19:49:45 <kipple> I couldn't come up with a cool name. First thing that came to mind was the
19:49:45 <kipple> shoopuf from FFX (just rode one in the game =). "
19:49:56 <kipple> quoted from the spec....
19:50:02 <kipple> (and no, it's not my language)
19:51:14 <kipple> I don't think it has ever been published on the web
19:51:59 <nooga> heeel! im stupid~!
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20:03:58 <nooga> what looks complicated?
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21:48:04 <GregorR> Can't talk now, I'm going to get MOXIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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00:04:27 <kipple> what's this Moxie thing?
00:05:10 <GregorR> It's like the ORIGINAL soda.
00:05:16 <GregorR> They only sell it in Maine, but I found a distributor.
00:05:46 <GregorR> http://www.metrocast.net/~moxieman/WhatIs.html
00:06:20 <kipple> found it in the 'pedia
00:06:58 <kipple> interesting. the word moxie comes from the drink, and not the other way around :)
00:10:38 <kipple> amazing what you can learn on #esoteric
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00:25:39 <GregorR> kipple: I think Moxie pretty well fits the definition of an esoteric soda ;)
00:26:50 <kipple> but according to wikipedia it is the official state soft drink of Maine.... not so esoteric
00:27:12 <calamari> been implementing NULL for EsoShell
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00:57:07 <GregorR> Of course you do, it's awesome.
00:57:45 <GregorR> RealSoda has retailers all over the USA it turns out :-P
00:59:44 <Wildhalcyon> Hmmm, judging by their site, "all over" is limited to the western states
01:00:15 <GregorR> http://www.moxie.info/njmox.htm
01:00:31 <GregorR> I don't know how close to you either of those cities are *shrugs*
01:01:09 <Wildhalcyon> not very close considering its new jersey...
01:01:40 <Wildhalcyon> There's a nearby one in north carolina though!
01:03:56 <Wildhalcyon> Oh, I know where the store is, which is surprising, since my knowledge of the area in and around my city is *very* limited.
01:13:51 <twobitsprite> heh, right on... how long you been in the area?
01:18:33 <twobitsprite> yeah... see, I"m up here from FL, so it's the winters that kill me...
01:20:06 <Wildhalcyon> Winters are a little colder here, compared with Seattle, but just barely
01:22:47 <Wildhalcyon> Well, apparently a lot of people expect Seattle to be like 10 degrees in the winter
01:26:29 * twobitsprite wonders when someone's going to complain about the off-topic convo :P
01:27:35 <Wildhalcyon> Well, apparently the "topic" is the archives (not that Im complaining about the handy archive link)
01:37:02 <Wildhalcyon> Im trying to read this paper concerning my esolang, but I honestly can't make heads or tails of it. They use (and fail to explain) a lot of terminology, and wikipedia is only helping so much
01:43:22 <Wildhalcyon> Well, it looks like it was a phd thesis paper...
01:43:49 <twobitsprite> that would explain it... someone was trying to impress thier prof...
01:43:55 <lament> twobitsprite: this is #esoteric. Only complaints about on-topic convo are accepted
01:44:46 <lament> oh yeah? Then I challenge you to a duel!
01:46:03 <Wildhalcyon> Does anyone know anything about the density of regular languages?
01:47:59 <Wildhalcyon> I think it has to do with how many strings are in a language v. how many ways to make those strings.. or something
01:50:49 <Wildhalcyon> http://www.cs.uwaterloo.ca/journals/JIS/VOL8/Moreira/moreira8.pdf This is the paper Im looking at, the reference to density is on page 3.
01:51:38 <Wildhalcyon> I guess not. It seems to just be saying "the number of strings in the language"
01:53:38 <Wildhalcyon> in the sense that it doesn't seem to be a density from what Im used to of the term..
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01:59:06 <{^Raven^}> calamari: at the posted closing of entries just the two
01:59:11 <{^Raven^}> lament: i hope the comp.lang.c topic police don't join #esoteric
02:01:31 <lament> on the contrary, they're quite welcome to
02:01:48 <lament> provided they stay off-topic, of course :)
02:02:44 * {^Raven^} tries to imagine a significant proportion of clc exploding with indignation
02:02:59 <calamari> cool.. I've completely busted up EsoShell with all my changes :)
02:03:18 <calamari> don't expect any new versions for a while, lol
02:04:03 <{^Raven^}> excellent, that makes me feel better about forgetting the easel implementation specs (good thing I actually documented it:)
02:04:19 <calamari> kipple: more powerful console (move around, character attributes), binary files, filesystem program loader, etc
02:04:44 <calamari> it seems that many of these things are interrelated
02:05:13 <calamari> so I get partway into writing one then I have to change something else
02:06:05 <calamari> one of the things that I really want to do is change the shell into a program just like everything else
02:06:28 <calamari> that will open up the possibility of shell scripts
02:06:57 <{^Raven^}> i've been wanting to give PESOIX the concept of disk images that can be manipulated using your EsoAPI
02:07:28 <calamari> then the binary i/o will be handy
02:08:00 <kipple> calamari: you might as well implement the linux kernel right away. Seems like that's where you're going :D
02:09:44 <{^Raven^}> i'm off to bed, hopefully will have some more time to work on PESOIX soon
02:10:42 * {^Raven^} is writing a smallish compiler that targets eight languages atm
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04:15:17 * Wildhalcyon understands now. Density of a language = number of strings in the language
04:15:37 <kipple> what does that mean? number of strings?
04:16:20 <Wildhalcyon> it means the number of strings, like "a", "b", "ab", "abababab"... etc
04:17:01 <Wildhalcyon> the paper I was reading was concerned with finite language -> languages that have a finite number of strings in them
04:17:19 <kipple> aha. wouldn't most languages be practically infinite?
04:18:40 <Wildhalcyon> well, many are, but there's plenty of finite ones as well
04:19:22 <Wildhalcyon> Even though run-on sentences are a problem, english is infinite
04:24:14 <kipple> do you have an example of a finite language?
04:26:19 <kipple> befunge 93 would be finite because the code size is restricted. am I right?
04:26:50 <kipple> and any Turing complete language would automatically be infinite
04:26:56 <Wildhalcyon> although its very large, you're right, it is finite
04:27:23 <Wildhalcyon> the strings within glypho are finite - there are 15 of them
04:27:32 <kipple> befunge 93 codespace is only 80x25 cells. not very large
04:28:03 <Wildhalcyon> yes, but you have lots of symbol combinations within it
04:28:39 <kipple> but how is glypho finite? you can combine the 15 strings in an infinite number of ways, cant you?
04:29:27 <Wildhalcyon> glypho itself is infinite, but the individual strings are not
04:30:05 <kipple> well I don't think there are any languages where individual words have infinite length...
04:31:07 <kipple> do you have an example of such a word?
04:31:19 <kipple> (that was a joke by the way)
04:31:32 <Wildhalcyon> lol, good.. cause I was gonna start typin'
04:32:17 <Wildhalcyon> Anyhow, the problem I was trying to compute was the overall inefficiency of glypho.
04:33:05 <Wildhalcyon> if I have an underlying symbol set and encode it in glypho strings of length n, how much overall loss do I experience?
04:35:46 <Wildhalcyon> For the english alphabet, the efficiency is low: 15/(26^4), but for a 2-bit number (smallest possible to encode in glypho) the overall efficiency is 15/4^4= 15/16
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04:50:18 <kipple> I guess you could say that
04:50:25 <Wildhalcyon> I have been recently, but in the past, no. I guess I would like to consider myself to be a regular
04:50:52 <Arrogant> I mean, it's on my auto-join list.
04:50:54 <kipple> though addicts might be a better term
04:51:34 <kipple> me too. My computer is on all the time, except when I'm asleep, and I'm usually always on here
04:51:59 <Wildhalcyon> The first thing I do when I get back to my computer is check my email, the second thing I do is check the #esoteric logs
04:57:52 <Arrogant> Keymaker's making some sort of SECRET LANGUAGE?
04:58:51 <kipple> but he IS telling you about it. otherwise you wouldn't know
04:59:13 <GregorR> "Lose something important. Lose everything you have with the world of viruses and trojans that run on Windows!"
04:59:27 <Wildhalcyon> Good point kipple. He's told us that it exists, but withheld other details
04:59:56 <Arrogant> GregorR: I'm having trouble parsing ORK
05:00:04 <Arrogant> I don't know pyparsing very well yet though.
05:00:08 <Arrogant> So that has a lot to do with it.
05:00:09 <GregorR> I'm not surprised somehow (no offense) :)
05:00:23 <Arrogant> I need to make it look ahead to find "is to" and not parse it as part of the name :D
05:03:02 <Arrogant> This isn't a very active channel
05:03:31 <GregorR> Esoteric programming doesn't often make the front-page news either.
05:04:00 <kipple> I know of one on slashdot
05:04:19 <GregorR> It's not even entertainment news.
05:04:49 <GregorR> I know, everyone disagrees :P
05:04:54 <Arrogant> Slashdot is serious advertisement is what it is.
05:05:07 <kipple> just because most of the comments are incredibly stupid doesn't make the articles they link to stupid
05:05:19 <GregorR> I never even get anywhere near the comments.
05:05:28 <GregorR> The articles are just irrelevent and usually a waste of ones time.
05:06:13 <GregorR> This is of course all just in my (particularly negative) opinion of Slashdot.
05:06:41 <kipple> as a matter of fact, slashdot is where I first found out about esolangs
05:07:31 <kipple> someone posted a link to chris' brainfuck page
05:07:43 <Wildhalcyon> I don't know exactly where I found out about them, but I do know the first one I discovered with befunge
05:08:16 <Wildhalcyon> although, I had "heard" of intercal before, I'd never read up on it
05:08:36 <kipple> yeah, I think I'd heard about INTERCAL too before
05:09:10 <GregorR> Actually, let me change my point a bit: Slashdot /is now/ bad, but /used/ to be OK. It's gotten progressively worse over the year.
05:09:47 <lament> we're all children of slashdot
05:10:13 <GregorR> lol, I had to sit in a "Christ's Children Food Ministry" while waiting for the guy to get my Moxie.
05:10:33 <GregorR> Apparently they have a "convert and you can eat" program, which is so subversive it makes me vomit with anger.
05:11:08 <Wildhalcyon> You dont happen to know what church is sponsoring this, do you?
05:11:18 <kipple> you mean they only serve believers?
05:11:21 <GregorR> I spent as little time in there as possible.
05:11:39 <lament> but it would turn all christians against them
05:11:41 <GregorR> Well, it's a charity, they could give stuff to whoever they pleased.
05:11:42 <kipple> wouldn't that be religous discrimination
05:12:15 <Wildhalcyon> its no more discrimination than african-american scholarships are discrimination
05:12:34 <GregorR> Less so, because it's a changeable (sort of) feature.
05:12:42 <kipple> so, if someone starts a charity that only gives to white people, that would be legal? I find that hard to believe
05:13:09 <GregorR> kipple: Would you consider a charity that will only give to African American's to be acceptable? If so, you're a hypocrite.
05:14:05 <GregorR> Anyway, even THAT didn't damper the mood on getting Moxie ^_^
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05:14:32 -!- GregorR has changed nick to Peer.
05:14:39 <Peer> I have struck again!
05:14:45 -!- Peer has changed nick to GregorR.
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05:15:07 <Wildhalcyon> good old Firefox, how I love random errors!
05:15:27 <GregorR> Despite how I love Firefox, I have to agree.
05:15:34 <GregorR> It's not anywhere near as stable as they'd like you to believe.
05:15:42 <Arrogant> Wildhalcyon: Beta 1.5 is fun to crash
05:16:20 <Wildhalcyon> I've got 1.0.6, so.. probably doesn't crash as much as 1.5, but still, pretty regularly.
05:16:31 <Wildhalcyon> My system isn't exactly swimming with stability though.
05:16:53 * kipple uses Opera which almost never crash
05:16:59 <Wildhalcyon> I think something's brainfucked on my motherboard. Probably needs to be replaced, but until I can afford my food and rent, motherboard is on backburner
05:18:31 * Wildhalcyon is smart. Finally understands everything in the phD paper
05:19:09 <Wildhalcyon> I found a VERY educational website on formal language syntax that helped me through it
05:20:11 <Wildhalcyon> Figuring out that 11*+11*2(1+2)*+11*2(1+2)*3(1+2+3)*+11*2(1+2)*3(1+2+3)*4(1+2+3+4)* meant the 15 glypho strings was tough
05:20:41 <Wildhalcyon> Arrogant: this paper: http://www.cs.uwaterloo.ca/journals/JIS/VOL8/Moreira/moreira8.pdf
05:25:35 <Arrogant> It's got symbols that I don't understand.
05:26:46 <Wildhalcyon> I was right there with you this afternoon Arrogant
05:27:46 <Wildhalcyon> This one is worse: http://theory.csail.mit.edu/~yekhanin/Papers/acct2004_I.pdf
05:29:33 * kipple takes a brief look on the article and quickly closes it again
05:29:40 <Arrogant> Oo. Set operators that I don't remember.
05:29:48 <GregorR> I didn't even go as far as to open the article :-P
05:30:02 <GregorR> I don't want to be immasculated by a PDF.
05:30:10 <Arrogant> I'm only in High School Calculus :(
05:30:43 <Wildhalcyon> You're pretty good for only doing HS calc then arrogant. I wouldn't have even been close to understanding that in HS.
05:31:04 <Arrogant> I only know that there're some set operators
05:31:09 <Arrogant> There's plenty more that I don't understand
05:31:11 <Wildhalcyon> Now Im starting to get the hang of it. Most of this knowledge is all self-study stuff.
05:31:27 <Arrogant> I think I'll wait until I finish this year
05:31:37 <Wildhalcyon> I dont think that 2nd paper had anything useful for me in it...
05:31:56 <Arrogant> GregorR: I've decided to define names and such with SkipTo("is to") etc
05:32:21 <Arrogant> You'll be able to do "When ^!$351\n\n is to 15!!\a:" if you want to.
05:32:47 <Arrogant> The spec doesn't define what a name could be!~
05:33:24 <kipple> doesn't newlines have a special meaning though?
05:33:53 <kipple> isn't that how you separate code lines
05:38:51 <GregorR> Yeah, newlines separate code lines.
05:38:58 <GregorR> So that ought not to work.
05:39:15 <GregorR> All the other characters are fine, though using alphanumeric + _ would be consistant with the -to-C++ compiler.
05:40:35 <GregorR> BTW, you haven't exactly lived up to your nick :-P
05:43:29 <GregorR> So, if I insulted Python, presumably you would start being more arrogant?
05:44:11 <GregorR> What's with indentation being significant?! Making any whitespace significant is totally idiotic.
05:44:33 <kipple> you mean like having whitespace separate code lines?
05:44:46 <GregorR> lol, I was kidding to rile up Arrogant ;)
05:44:53 <Arrogant> Python blocks are defined by tabs kipple
05:45:08 <kipple> I was referring to whitespace in ORK
05:45:15 <GregorR> It actually enforces good coding practices, which is good.
05:45:28 <Arrogant> Makes it shitty for one-liners.
05:46:03 <GregorR> Let's just all agree that Perl is terrible and go on ;)
05:46:03 <Arrogant> It's kinda like reading an esoteric language
05:46:27 <Arrogant> print "\n".join("%(n)s%(a)s%(b)s,\n%(n)s%(a)s!\nTake one down, pass it around,\n%(m)s%(d)s%(b)s!\n"%{"n":n,"a":(n>1and" bottles"or" bottle")+" of beer","b":" on the wall","m":(n-1or"No more"),"d":(n==2and" bottle"or" bottles")+" of beer"}for n in range(99,0,-1))
05:49:21 <Wildhalcyon> I really should go too. Im not finding the info I need, and I have to be up in 6 hours
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07:20:05 <GregorR> (#esoteric: Join it for the insightful conversations!)
07:21:45 <nooga> http://www.deepwood.net/~drlion/snusp/sample-code.snusp << looks like a plan of a rail station
07:24:53 <nooga> http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/projects/worb/eg/or-gate.worb << that looks like a roguelike dungeon
07:28:10 <nooga> i need to create something more interesting than SADOL
07:28:55 <calamari> how about a 3-d language, where you program with eye-crossing stereograms
07:29:42 <nooga> haha, implementation would be hard ;p
07:30:02 <nooga> cpressey creates cool languages ;p
07:36:03 <nooga> i was trying to put linux into my MP3 player :)
07:37:20 <nooga> and now it doesn't work...
07:48:15 <GregorR> Eye-crossing stereograms = unbelievably cool
07:48:19 <GregorR> Why aren't there more of them?
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08:26:42 <calamari> nooga: there are mp3 players that can run linux?
08:26:54 <nooga> and that's the point :)
08:27:14 <nooga> i tried to hack one ;p
08:29:45 <nooga> creative NOMAD MuVo NX 256 MB
08:30:11 <calamari> is the os part of the 256mb, or is it separate?
08:30:28 <calamari> I should say the mp3 player :)
08:30:53 <nooga> 256MB are for songs :-)
08:31:29 <nooga> but i tried to put old kernel there
08:32:05 <nooga> and the rest of things, like lcd driver and some stuf were in that space for songs
08:32:40 <nooga> and now i have blank mp3 player
08:34:02 <calamari> how did you rewrite that 1mb area?
08:35:31 <nooga> used a little program
08:36:14 <calamari> wonder if that'd work on a muvo^2.. it has larger storage
08:36:50 <nooga> you may try, but don't ask me
08:37:17 <nooga> i don't want to help breaking your player :D
08:37:25 <calamari> did you write that bootflasher program?
08:39:22 <GregorR> Umm, wouldn't you need to write a custom bootloader that in turn loads the kernel and put /that/ in the 1MB "kernel" space, or did you know how the internal bootloader calls the kernel and manage to set it up to be compatible?
08:39:35 <nooga> http://www.nomadness.net/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=149
08:39:55 <nooga> http://www.nomadness.net/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=MostPopular << more resources if you want
08:40:39 <nooga> maybe i'll try again
08:41:40 <calamari> btw.. how will you know if it worked sicne there is no display? :)
08:43:34 <nooga> it should print 'hello'
08:44:19 <nooga> on the player's display
08:44:33 <calamari> oh, I guess I was looking at an older model
08:45:20 <nooga> http://www.nomadworld.com/products/muvo_nx/
08:47:56 * calamari now knows what he wants for christmas :)
08:50:58 <calamari> hmm, looks liek they figured out how to hack an ipod and put linux on it too
08:52:26 <nooga> that was my inspiration
08:52:38 <nooga> i like hardware hacks
08:52:50 <nooga> like network coffee express
08:54:04 <nooga> it's connected with the local network and you can control it from your computer
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10:19:43 * grim_ has a horrible esolang idea
10:23:23 <grim_> hm, occurs to me that ALPACA might have got there first though
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12:38:21 <Wildhalcyon> Nooga, you know if it would work on a MuVo TX FM? That's what Ive got.
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21:06:19 <Wildhalcyon> Im working on my first ever TRANSCRIPT program!
21:18:24 <Wildhalcyon> Hmm, doesn't support a lot of string operations via user input :-(
21:18:34 <Wildhalcyon> and what are the global objects obj1, obj2, and obj3?
21:25:50 <jix> who owns esolangs.org?
21:26:13 <jix> i think free subdomains/sub-dns entries for esolang-ers would be coool
21:30:19 <Wildhalcyon> That wouldn't be a bad idea.. I've been looking at places to host, since I'll be graduating soon and losing my free school web space
21:30:51 <jix> i'm only talking about subdomains not webspace
21:33:05 <Wildhalcyon> True, but once I have the domain, I can get the webspace. Having a subdomain tied to the esolang would be nice.
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23:16:48 <Keymaker> GregorR: you're right; i hate slashdot too
23:18:00 <Keymaker> other site that annoys me a lot is that thinkgeek shop
23:18:39 <Keymaker> when i have time i make my own binary shirt with text "fu*k you thinkgeek, your stuff costs too much!" or something
23:19:03 <GregorR> There was a time when I would have considered buying a case of Bawls from there ..
23:19:10 <GregorR> But now that I have Moxie, who needs Bawls?!
23:19:28 <grim_> I don't know what it is exactly about thinkgeek that I dislike, but I have no use for the stuff on there and the humour doesn't appeal either
23:19:43 <grim_> oh, so hang on, that's what I dislike
23:20:23 <Keymaker> like i wouldn't pay more than 20 euros for a t-shirt with only one word
23:20:30 <Keymaker> something like "geek." or something
23:21:04 * GregorR bites off the head of a chicken.
23:21:46 * grim_ doesn't hate "geek" so much...
23:22:13 <GregorR> I'm fine with being called a geek, but only because I do quite enjoy biting off the heads of chickens.
23:22:34 <grim_> I *am* a geek... jsut not a slashdot geek or a thinkgeek geek
23:22:41 <grim_> or a sideshow geek for that matter ;)
23:23:01 <Keymaker> i'd rather take something esoteric programming shirt, of some own program
23:23:09 <Keymaker> far cooler than any thinkgeek binary message
23:23:18 * GregorR opens an Esoteric Programming Cafeshop.
23:25:49 <Keymaker> hey, wait a minute -- i have the exam thing over! soon it should be time to plan a new brainfuck competition
23:25:55 <Keymaker> or that gammaplex demo competition
23:27:49 <GregorR> Can somebody write a befunge program that outputs "REAL MEN PROGRAM IN BEFUNGE"?
23:31:00 <Keymaker> "EGNUFEB NI MARGORP NEM LAER">:#,_@
23:31:10 <Keymaker> doesn't print a new line, though
23:36:17 <GregorR> The more esoteric the better :-P
23:44:16 <GregorR> http://www.cafepress.com/esoprog.32072840
23:48:36 <Keymaker> now make the traditional thongs and other stuff that can be usually found from those cafeshops..
23:50:06 <Keymaker> btw, what does the bf program do?
23:53:40 <GregorR> REAL MEN PROGRAM IN BRAINFUCK
23:53:48 <GregorR> It's just the same as on the back.
23:54:52 <GregorR> http://www.cafepress.com/esoprog.32074529
00:02:01 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context.").
00:14:44 <GregorR> http://www.cafepress.com/esoprog.32075179
00:37:28 * {^Raven^} wonders what a mouse mat is and why anyone would ever need one
00:57:44 <GregorR> Back in the dark ages, computer mice had these little balls in them.
00:57:59 <GregorR> Now, the little balls in the mice turned little wheels to detect the mouse's motion.
00:58:09 <GregorR> However, it needed friction to properly operate.
00:58:31 <GregorR> So, mousepads were made to induce friction into the equation, since most desks were wooden and varnished.
01:03:52 <{^Raven^}> My varnished wooden desk has no problems with those kinds of meese - even before all my ancient meese had testicular enhancement surgery
01:12:47 <GregorR> I would call it something more like neutering than testicular enhancement :-P
01:36:02 <cpressey> but then i really haven't been keeping up on current bands
02:09:37 <{^Raven^}> GregorR: I was talking about the mice that are not of Borg. Quadrature Bus mice don't seem to come in cybernetically enhanced versions
02:12:47 <{^Raven^}> (and most retailers don't even know what they are anyways...like software density select floppy drives)
02:19:28 <GregorR> Of course, any decent operating system shouldn't have a problem with a regular ol' quad density drive and selecting itself.
02:21:08 <{^Raven^}> SDS drives are superior and more versatile
02:53:00 <GregorR> Wooh, I got five players in my card game online!
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03:32:25 <GregorR> Wildhalcyon: It's the only language I can write stuff in off the top of my head :-P
03:32:30 <GregorR> Feel free to suggest/write others!
03:32:37 <GregorR> I will GLADLY add Befunge, INTERCAL, etc.
03:47:20 <GregorR> Well, I didn't write the code on the mousepad.
04:06:21 <GregorR> "Written In Brainfuck", the Brainfuck compiler in Brainfuck.
04:06:25 <Wildhalcyon> (Sorry for my prolonged absence - I jotted down to the store to get some more soda - not Moxie unfortunately)
04:07:11 <GregorR> awib is Also Written in Brainfuck.
04:07:18 <GregorR> wib compiles to C, awib compiles to binary
04:08:03 <Wildhalcyon> So, the code on the mousepad is a bf->c compiler?
04:08:52 <GregorR> I decided that if anybody typed it in, it would be more helpful to output C ;)
04:08:59 <GregorR> Since plenty of people will be transcribing the mousepad.
04:09:40 <Wildhalcyon> so, what DOES happen when its run on a BF interpreter?
04:10:10 <GregorR> It takes BF as input and outputs C.
04:10:40 <Wildhalcyon> so, if someone were to not know BF, they wouldn't necessarily KNOW that's what it did?
04:11:51 <Wildhalcyon> Haha: my friend's away message on AIM is "Dear Jay-Z, plz take a seat. K thnx."
04:14:30 <Wildhalcyon> I might rewrite the snusp ackermann function code
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04:31:27 <GregorR> He joined, said nothing, then left.
04:41:01 <GregorR> Somehow I've entirely missed him XD
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06:07:44 <GregorR> *insert standard greeting here*
06:11:41 <GregorR> *insert derogatory statement here*
06:19:18 <sekhmet> *non-sequitor from the lurker*
06:20:53 <sekhmet> *something involving beets*
06:21:15 <GregorR> *off-color joke involving beets*
06:28:41 <lament> *a sentence enclosed in asterisks*
06:36:50 <Arrogant> Makes Python look bad sometimes
06:37:39 * Arrogant is going to try to get his friend to FACE OFF IN FYB
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13:58:07 <Keymaker> it's WEEEEEEEEEEEKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEND!
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16:44:06 <Keymaker> when i woke up today i got idea for minimalistic funge
16:46:51 <Keymaker> let me try to tell it in few words (takes a bit time)
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16:50:30 <Keymaker> you received my previous lines?
16:50:43 <Keymaker> about that i'm going to describe it soon..?
16:53:30 <Keymaker> i'll post the description soon
16:56:07 <Keymaker> - infinite program space, "field", consist of infinite amount of blocks
16:56:07 <Keymaker> - each block in field can have value 0 or 1 (in theory)
16:56:07 <Keymaker> - there is befunge-like instruction pointer
16:56:07 <Keymaker> - IP has also value 0 or 1 in it's one bit memory (called IPM)
16:56:09 <Keymaker> . flips the bit value of the block, and saves the new value to IPM
16:56:11 <Keymaker> * changes direction 90 degrees; if going right go down, if down go left, if left go up, if up go right.
16:56:13 <Keymaker> = if IPM is 1, continue to next instruction, if IPM is 0, perform '*' instruction
16:57:17 <Keymaker> i'm not sure is it TC or not, but i guess it is; since it has infinite memory, ability for condition '=', and command for memory manipulation '.'
17:02:12 <Keymaker> now when i think about it, i'm not sure if a skip character '#' (befunge way) is required..
17:02:35 <Keymaker> oops, i mean that i think it may be it is required..
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17:13:54 <Keymaker> ** >> IP goes here after executing that program >>
17:15:20 <Keymaker> that program sets the value first 1 and then makes it zero. useful snippet for designing programs that need to set some memory block to zero ;)
17:15:46 <Keymaker> oh, and that program uses new instruction '#' skip, which i think is required
17:17:12 <Keymaker> ..at least now the name can't be "trifunge"
17:21:06 <Keymaker> (to note, the initial IP direction is right.)
17:35:21 <Keymaker> nobody has anything to say? i'm disappointed :P
17:37:51 <jix> i don't get it... ;)
17:56:56 <grim_> so... cells in the grid each have a bit value associated with them?
17:58:15 <Keymaker> hmm.. yes, (if i understood your question right)
17:58:39 <Keymaker> you see, it's two dimensional grid, where there can be other data (NOP) and instructions;
17:59:29 <Keymaker> when the instruction pointer is in '.' block, it flips the value that block has
18:00:16 <grim_> yeah ok, that's what I thought
18:00:28 <grim_> so the program you posted sets a bit, clears it again, and exits
18:00:59 <grim_> mm, I mean "exits the program area"
18:01:03 <Keymaker> it would exit if the instruction pointer would reach the left side or the up side
18:01:20 <grim_> it goes off into infinity then ;)
18:02:01 <Keymaker> the field is infinite to down, and right
18:03:25 <grim_> how would you perform calculations in this?
18:04:15 <Keymaker> you just move byte values around
18:04:33 <Keymaker> use '=' instruction and '.' and '*'
18:05:03 <Keymaker> you for example set 100 cells to 1
18:05:33 <Keymaker> ..and well, it's really hard.. lol
18:06:02 <Keymaker> it's basically the same than a brainfuck version that uses bits only
18:07:26 <Keymaker> anyways; i need to go for a while.. bbl
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18:18:40 * grim_ is away doon the pub for a bit
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19:09:47 <GregorR> Grim underscore /underscore/!
19:09:55 <GregorR> Grim underscore's /evil/ twin!
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19:14:43 <jix> woha Grim underscore's underscore's even more evil twin!
19:15:09 <GregorR> OMFG!!!!!!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES, IT'S GRIM UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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20:21:57 <Keymaker> ha, judging by the logs seems good ol' gregor has lost his medication..
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22:42:25 <Wildhalcyon> It was kinda fun. I played it with some friends back when computers were still novel. PCs were a couple decades old, but this was still before the computer-in-every-house assumption.
22:43:07 <Wildhalcyon> Now that I live in North Carolina, I have to revise my opinion of that as well (plenty of places DONT have computers in every house... ?!) I grew up in one of the most wired cities in the US
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01:10:53 <Wildhalcyon> Am I the only one having trouble checking out the logs on meme.b9?
01:11:32 <Wildhalcyon> My internet connection has been on the fritz today, and Im trying to keep caught up.
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01:22:46 <calamari> halcyon.. yeah doesn't seem to be loading
01:23:46 <calamari> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/05.09.23
01:29:23 <Wildhalcyon> Phew, nothing new. I hate missing out on stuff
01:29:28 * calamari got the new console working.. of course to do it I had to tear down 10 other things
01:30:12 <calamari> the code is definitely better than it was before,.. so I'm happy
01:30:28 <Wildhalcyon> I think you're really in love with your esoshell
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01:30:54 <calamari> it won't even compile on gcj now tho :)
01:31:31 <calamari> halcyon: it feels like the OS project that I wanted to have last semester, but was denied
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01:56:23 <Wildhalcyon> Alright.. I dont think this is going to work well tonight. I'm callin it an evening. G'night folks.
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08:25:14 <GregorR-L> I can't think of a good idea for a new esolang.
08:28:14 <calamari> that reminds me of 7th or 8th grade where I ran out of ideas for things to program
08:29:04 <GregorR-L> I just recently wrote a cool web version of a card game 8-D
08:30:56 <GregorR-L> A card game ... that I was a codeveloper of :-P
08:35:20 <calamari> I clicked a few cards, but I guess I'd need to learn the rules and get cable :)
08:35:37 <GregorR-L> http://www.codu.org/crackpipe/ < the rules
08:36:03 <GregorR-L> And hopefully the speed of your connection shouldn't be too much of a problem ...
08:36:42 <calamari> I'm downloading the java jdk 1.22 atm, so that's really why it was slow
08:37:18 <GregorR-L> And why that particular esoteric programming langugae?
08:37:36 <calamari> because it seems more reasonable as far as classpath / gcj are concerned
08:38:08 <calamari> if it works in 1.22 then if it doesn't in the others, oh well :)
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12:13:37 <Keymaker> grrh, i can never remember how c works --
12:13:58 <Keymaker> if there is int a[100] before main(), will all a-cells be 0?
12:14:14 <Keymaker> or did it have to be inside main()? i can never remember this
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12:15:25 <jix> Keymaker: i always memset it to be sure it is zero
13:07:09 <Keymaker> jix: any idea how i could store text into array? including new lines
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16:11:42 <jix> haskell is a funny language
16:12:11 <jix> i like the type system
16:20:00 <nooga> i just edited my user: page in the wiki ;p
16:25:20 <nooga> i'll update SADOL's page
16:27:46 <nooga> oh, and maybe write 99bottles ... ;]
16:32:04 <Keymaker> ok, i made a digital root calculator in befunge. it's not as cool as the 9-character one that's in esowiki, but this mine uses the other input way -- the one in esowiki asks user to input a value, this reads value as ascii and so on;
16:32:47 <Keymaker> hmm, i hope this opera irc client didn't parse spaces..
16:35:01 <Keymaker> in case it did, just add the needed spaces there to get the up pointing arrows connected with the left going.
16:38:59 <nooga> i think it's correct
16:39:31 <Keymaker> ok, good. i just couldn't check since the logs archive didn't work for some reason..
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16:48:00 <Keymaker> on a sidenote, i need to go too.. :\
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17:47:34 <nooga> tokigun: r u there
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21:26:09 <Wildhalcyon> I'm thinking of writing a short essay on the esolang community and submitting it to a literary magazine
21:26:44 <grim_> if you don't mind my asking? ;)
21:27:59 <Wildhalcyon> Just.. its an iteresting group, with an interesting design philosophy
21:28:27 <Wildhalcyon> Its almost as if hackers have a sort of post-modern counter culture
21:29:23 <Wildhalcyon> I was thinking of doing interviews with some of the more well-known developers and programmers [in the genre]
21:29:47 <grim_> I guess I'm interested in what sort of audience there would be
21:30:12 <grim_> it seems to me an even more obscure topic than esolangs are themselves
21:30:28 <grim_> but hey, you seem to know what you want to say
21:30:58 <grim_> I like the idea of a post-modern counter-culture to hackers :)
21:31:21 <Wildhalcyon> I guess the intended audience would be a bunch of people who aren't terribly familiar with programming
21:36:02 <Wildhalcyon> The article will be like a serious look at esolangs. Why they're closer to programming as an art medium, and a means of self-expression with a valued and complex diversity
21:37:59 <Wildhalcyon> Why is it that, as a community, we're generally concerned with more ways of solving problems (writing new esolangs to "compute" hello world) than solving more complex problems using the same tools?
21:39:53 <Wildhalcyon> ... probably because its simply more difficult to write a BF operating system.
21:40:51 <Wildhalcyon> Anyhow, I have an incredibly crappy un-fulfilling job to go to now.
21:42:01 <Wildhalcyon> Talk with you all when Im free of my customer service personal hell
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02:57:00 <calamari> how about this bf-derivative language (3 instructions, cells are 1-bit): > { and ^, where > = >, { = <+, ^ = skip the next instruction. The program is executed in a loop, +[ ... ]
02:57:33 <calamari> I'm no sure if skip next is powerful enough for the if statement
03:00:35 <calamari> err I meant ^ = skip the next instr if byte is 0
03:17:54 <Wildhalcyon> Hmm, there's an OISC that uses skip-if-negative.. maybe that can be turned into a cryptic 1-bit brainfuck derivative?
03:20:49 <Wildhalcyon> Im not sure if skip-next-if-0 is powerful enough either. I think my "skip next n-instructions" and allowing n to be negative instruction WAS TC, but.. it was wayyy difficult to use correctly, since changing the code by one meant rewriting all the loops by 1 too, which changed how long THEY needed to be in proportion. It was a big mess.
03:22:27 <calamari> yeah, I'll probably code up some samples and see what happens
03:23:06 <calamari> my new console routines are super slow :(
03:23:40 <calamari> not sure where the input went wrong, but I can understand the output, since it's css+html
03:48:13 <Wildhalcyon> yay, cuz I had no idea how to help with that :-(
03:49:38 <calamari> yeah, I was using a pipe where I didn't really need to
03:50:23 <calamari> the pipe code had a blocking delay that was making the input sluggish
03:51:30 <calamari> now the question is whether the generation of the screen is slow, or the draw is slow
03:54:01 <Wildhalcyon> you know, pipe smoking is supposed to be just as bad as cigarettes
03:54:18 <Wildhalcyon> except that pipe tobacco is like a million times healthier in terms of chemical compounds.
03:54:27 <calamari> ahh, definitely the drawing time
03:54:37 <calamari> the html generation is way fast :)
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10:31:20 <nooga> what do you think for a name for a language: o-o ?
10:31:40 <nooga> what do you think *about* a name for a language: o-o ?
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11:09:11 * nooga just watched a film
11:10:00 <calamari> do you feel more 4 dimensional?
11:10:19 <nooga> now i want to make a 4-dimensional esolang :)
11:10:28 <calamari> I've never seen hypercube.. any good?
11:10:54 <nooga> the film was quite boring
11:11:21 <nooga> the first part - 'cube' was better IMHO
11:11:43 <calamari> ahh.. never seen that one either
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11:53:37 <Keymaker> nooga: man, hypercube's one of my favourite movies
11:53:47 <Keymaker> i like it much more than the first part 'the cube'
11:55:45 <nooga> http://agentj.kewlnet.int.pl/wysypisko/uploads/oo.txt
11:59:28 <nooga> what do you think?
12:04:23 <Keymaker> sorry, no time to read just now
12:04:37 <Keymaker> i'll read it when it ends and comment then
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13:45:15 <Keymaker> ok, it took a bit more time but not my own fault..
13:52:12 <Keymaker> ..anyone know whe feeling when you're supposed to do something other but you just rather spend the time doing something you're interested?
14:09:59 <jix> i should do my homework
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21:21:26 <nooga> my dad said: 'May I use your computer for a while?'
21:28:22 <kipple> when I use a computer for "a while" it frequently last longer than that...
21:28:49 <kipple> t know what timezone you're in...
21:29:33 <nooga> ha, you're in Norway
21:30:16 <kipple> the wiki strikes again ?
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00:10:21 <Wildhalcyon> Gah, what a horrible weekend. Did I miss anything fun?
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00:53:39 <kipple> W: is there a standard file extension for glypho files?
01:45:46 <kipple> I meant: do you call them hello.g, hello.glypho or something else?
01:46:09 <kipple> anyway, I've rewritten my kipple-interpreter to a Glypho shorthand interpreter
01:46:40 <Wildhalcyon> cool kipple - haven't come up with an extension yet
01:47:06 <Wildhalcyon> .gly probably - then a lot of files will be named "u.gly"
01:47:41 <kipple> actually, you need to extensions. one for proper glypho and one for shorthand
01:48:36 <Wildhalcyon> Im sorry my C interpreter isn't out yet. Been kind of pressed for time, work & study
01:49:08 <kipple> np. didn't take long to convert my kipple interpreter
01:51:00 <Wildhalcyon> Im sorry, been a while since I looked at the spec
01:53:44 <kipple> what happens when you reverse instruction flow? are < and > inverted?
01:55:09 <Wildhalcyon> As of right now, I think its ready to be symbolic reversal, and we'll just see what happens ;-)
01:55:40 <kipple> not sure what you mean...
01:56:17 <Wildhalcyon> Take the underlying symbols of each instruction and reverse them, as well as reversing the instruction flow
01:56:38 <kipple> ok. so < and > are not inverted then?
01:56:55 <kipple> but [ and ] has to be inverted at least, no?
01:58:02 <Wildhalcyon> Well, < and > are, as are [ and ], i and o, and ! and 1
01:58:47 <kipple> hmm. this complicates the interpreter a lot ;)
01:59:14 <kipple> since I'm working with shorthand and not the patterns
02:00:24 <Wildhalcyon> Well, the nice thing is that you dont NEED to know the patterns
02:00:39 <Wildhalcyon> just know that those four sets are reversals, while the other seven instructions stay the same
02:00:57 <Wildhalcyon> have a boolean "is_reverse" value, and if its true, swap the instruction tables
02:01:14 <kipple> yes, that's what I'm doing
02:01:26 <kipple> I guess "a lot" was a bit of an overstatement
02:01:54 <Wildhalcyon> To be honest, Im not certain its a really useful instruction. I just.. didnt know what else to do with it
02:02:13 <kipple> it can be a lot of fun
02:04:37 <Wildhalcyon> Im actually finding it difficult to code with...
02:04:59 <kipple> yes. but that can be agood thing :)
02:05:22 <kipple> do you have a working program using it?
02:06:01 <Wildhalcyon> The original reason I introduced the instruction was to let the program end... early, by reeversing to the beginning
02:06:30 <kipple> ok. I'll write one then. need to test that the interpreter works
02:07:08 <kipple> so ! is the opposite of 1 and not +?
02:17:17 <GregorR> Please, bring me up to date.
02:17:38 * kipple brings GregorR up to date
02:18:02 <GregorR> That was quick and painless!
02:19:06 <kipple> W: you're right that r is hard to program with
02:20:28 <Wildhalcyon> the best thing I could come up with was: 111[!r+1] which doesn't really do mch
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02:22:14 <kipple> are you sure that one works? I get an empty stack exception
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02:25:48 <kipple> I don't see how that loop can ever terminate. It will just empty the stack, and then crash
02:28:01 <Wildhalcyon> Shouldn't.. remember, you need to reverse instruction flow during reverse too
02:30:59 <Wildhalcyon> so, if you "unfold" it without the reverse symbol, you should get 111!1!++1!1!++1!1!++... hmm, no, you're right
02:31:27 <Wildhalcyon> but... what would I do without reverse. I'd have 14 instructions! I'd.. be screwed
02:32:17 <kipple> as I understand it the second + will try to add with only one number on the stack
02:32:47 <kipple> r might still be useful. just don't know how :)
02:34:33 <kipple> random is also a useful instruction
02:40:10 <Wildhalcyon> I know, and in some cases much valued, but... is it right for glypho? I don't see how reverse can POSSIBLY be useful without doing something useful itself
02:42:50 <kipple> well, I'm off to bed now. let me know if you make a decision :)
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22:51:50 <kipple> http://www.expertrating.com/jobs/Programming-jobs/Befunge-Programmer-jobs.asp
22:53:03 <GregorR> Man, that automatic page generator is stuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuupide
22:53:10 <GregorR> So stupid it makes me spell stupid as stupide.
22:57:04 <kipple> they have INTERCAL too: http://www.expertrating.com/jobs/Programming-jobs/Intercal-Programmer-jobs.asp :D
23:01:33 <cpressey> <300-foot-high-letters>WTF</300-foot-high-letters>
23:01:53 <kipple> heh. getting such a nice looking certificate would almost be worth the $10 just for the humor value
23:02:22 <GregorR> I am a certified Befunge programmer!
23:03:13 <Aardwolf> This site is US friendly - Hosted in the US - Payments in US Dollars - Payments received in the US through a US based payment processor <--- yeah duh who else would use such spammy looking site :p
23:04:30 <kipple> it is located in the UK though
23:05:37 * Aardwolf gonna take the free Computer Skills Test
23:06:09 * Aardwolf is too lazy to fill in the email adress form so won't take the test anyway
23:37:08 <GregorR> Wow, you're too lazy to type an email address so you're not going to take the test, how could you possibly have filled out that entire test form?
23:38:25 <Aardwolf> good point, but yeah I'm always too lazy to fill in email forms, I mean all those stupid sites requiring you to make an account to take 1 dumb test
23:38:26 <kipple> since he wasn't too lazy to write a whole sentence about it here, I assume his email address is extremely long
23:39:16 <kipple> just keep around an account for that purpose
23:39:37 <kipple> you don't have to make a new one each time
23:40:09 <GregorR> Aardwolf's email address: IAmAardwolfTheProgrammerOfEsotericLanguagesAndPerpetratorOfEmailsTooLongToRemember4546327859623793465789436257043265798042365783274803265704999036254789032430548903254321754089325748902564891065419078654890175489027503891754890237@server5435432.pop3.mail.aardwolfswebsiteaboutnothinginparticular.com
23:41:09 <kipple> hmm. what characters are allowed in email addresses? can one use stuff like +, < or ] ?
23:41:21 <GregorR> I'm pretty sure it's alphanumeric + _
23:41:24 <GregorR> I think even - is illegal.
23:41:54 <GregorR> OK, I have no clue, why am I talking?
23:43:04 <Aardwolf> So we need a BF variant that uses alphanumeric characters instead of +, <, ] and so on
23:45:32 <GregorR> We have one: PlusPlusLessthansymbolLeftbracket
23:47:17 <kipple> allowed chars are alphanumeric plus !#$%&'*+-/=?^_`{}|~ (according to rfc2822)
23:47:52 <Aardwolf> many email addresses have a . in them
23:48:03 <kipple> well, plus that one :)
23:50:07 <kipple> I tried to create an address +++ at my domain provider, but it didn't work :(
23:52:10 <kipple> hmm. I managed to create the address .@krokodille.com. I wonder if it will work....
00:25:19 <kipple> ha! it actually worked :D
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13:47:18 <jix> hey wildhalcyon
13:48:13 <wildhalcyon> I miss my computer. :-( without internet, its a cheap screensaver
13:48:43 <jix> i have a cold
13:49:37 <jix> yes.. it does
13:49:43 <wildhalcyon> Im putting off studying for my midterm in 45 minutes :-D
13:52:28 <wildhalcyon> mostly because I actually HAVE internet while Im in my lab on campus
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13:53:37 <wildhalcyon> jix: Kipple and I were having some issues with a symbol-wise reverse operator. I'm thinking that its a fairly useless appendage instruction that could be better replaced by something more powerful (read: esoteric)
13:54:22 <jix> hmm what's the latest glypho spec?
13:55:30 <wildhalcyon> It hasn't changed since adding the brackets
13:55:47 <jix> my interpreter is out of date...
13:55:55 <wildhalcyon> But we were looking at implementing it, and he wanted an example of a program that uses reverse, and I didn't have one
13:56:14 <wildhalcyon> I know, and its not your fault jix, its my fault, me and my indecisiveness
13:57:19 <jix> maybe add a gcd operation
13:57:45 <jix> that makes implementing of rational numbers easier
13:59:52 <wildhalcyon> No division operation, mind you, just modulo
14:00:18 <jix> modulu is easy to implement with test and sub
14:02:07 <jix> gcd is easy too
14:02:14 <jix> hmmm COSine!
14:02:25 <jix> cos(x)*10000
14:03:12 <jix> cos(x)*(2^32-1)
14:03:48 <jix> cos(x)*(2^32-0.5)-0.5 ?
14:05:16 <jix> why not e?
14:05:20 <wildhalcyon> filling in a needless extra instruction is hard!
14:05:39 <jix> 1/2*(e^ix+e^-ix)
14:06:12 <jix> 1/2*(e^x+e^-x)
14:07:26 <wildhalcyon> What about replacing n with Bn, where Bn is the nth Bell Number (related to the symbol-less encoding Im using)
14:07:34 <wildhalcyon> except that they grow very large very quickly
15:14:36 <kipple> I think a random function would be nice. That's something that can't be done with the current set
15:15:41 <kipple> something like: random: pops two values from the stack and pushes a random number in the range specified by the two popped values
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16:12:17 <wildhalcyon> kipple: all you would need to do is pop one variable for the size of the range, and then add the minimum to the size
16:13:26 <wildhalcyon> rngs are nice, but it leaves open the possibility of someone implementing the instruction in an incredibly stupid manner. Plus, it would be the only non-deterministic instruction in the whole set
16:14:54 <wildhalcyon> We'll see. I'm going to go home and find out if I have internet again (or if I'll ever have internet again, ever.)
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17:14:58 <jix> moin nooga, Keymaker
17:15:12 <Keymaker> (or actually it's 19 pm here but who cares..)
17:15:52 <Keymaker> i always use am and pm with the format that doesn't use them :)
17:16:12 <nooga> it's more natural for me
17:16:26 <Keymaker> but i still add am and pm there for some reason :)
17:16:34 <Keymaker> but well, my days are 48 hours ;)
17:17:24 <jix> 18:16 here
17:17:59 <jix> 18:17:01<jix>18:16 here
17:18:56 <nooga> now i'm thinkin' about my new language - o-o
17:19:12 <nooga> here's what i've got for now: http://agentj.kewlnet.int.pl/wysypisko/uploads/oo.txt
17:20:02 <nooga> it's more like: o<link>o
17:20:47 <nooga> what? i can see only some werid signs...
17:20:57 <jix> i'm using utf8
17:21:26 <jix> it was o—o
17:22:59 <jix> lol in ndash has the same length as n but mdash is too large
17:23:11 <jix> in lucida grande it's the other way around
17:23:48 <nooga> i think that each node in o-o should have additional stack for internal use
17:35:32 <nooga> i've got tolearn ruby
17:37:33 <nooga> from those interpreted langs i know perl, python a bit, and PHP
17:37:40 <jix> q: what does if 0;puts "Hello";end in ruby
17:38:12 <nooga> a: prints "Hello"?
17:39:00 <jix> everything except nil and false evaluates to true in conditions
17:39:23 <jix> and everything (including nil) is an object
17:42:01 <jix> classes are objects too
17:42:40 <jix> and the Class object is an instance of itself
17:43:17 <jix> Keymaker: no... print is like echo
17:43:31 <jix> puts "Hello" == puts "Hello\n"
17:43:44 <jix> puts checks for a \n at the end of a string and if it is missing it appends one
17:44:28 <jix> replace ; with \n (ruby needs no ; only if you put more than 1 lines on one line)
17:45:11 <jix> it's like if(0)printf("Hello\n"); in c (with the difference that in c 0 == false in ruby 0 (in conditions) == true)
17:47:29 <twobitsprite> is Ruby one of those langauges which have only one false value, i.e. "False"?
17:47:40 <jix> no false and nil
17:53:18 <jix> if you want to check a number for zero just use if bla.zero?
18:17:32 <twobitsprite> is it possible to have a turing complete prorgamming language where & is the only operation?
18:18:16 <twobitsprite> what if I added a stack, and made & a stack function?
18:19:12 <Keymaker> not sure. as far as i know there must be way to move back or jump some part in the program. as well as access memory other than single stack
18:20:06 <Keymaker> ..but limited languages are interesting, so go ahead and try :D
18:21:13 <Keymaker> it can be often(?) that languages that aren't planned to be turing-complete happen to be (or vice versa)
18:21:15 <jix> you need ~(a & b) (nand) for turing completeness and ram and conditional or computed code jumps
18:33:01 <Keymaker> hmmm, i wonder if i should add two stacks to my language, to make sure it is turing-complete. i'm really not sure at all if reversing the stack instruction will make it suitable for being tc
18:36:25 <Keymaker> or well, i'll try first making programs with only one reversible stack and see if the other is necessary.
18:37:10 <Keymaker> jix: would you have time to write another interpreter ;) (in c if possible)
18:39:21 <Keymaker> i think i'll need to do changes again..
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19:12:23 <twobitsprite> would an implicit loop work to replace being able to jump in the code?
19:19:38 <nooga> what do you guys think about o-o?
19:19:45 <nooga> in it's current shape?
19:20:21 <nooga> http://agentj.kewlnet.int.pl/wysypisko/uploads/oo.txt
19:20:55 <twobitsprite> well.. first off, you need some line-breaks in your web-page
19:21:19 <nooga> eh, it's a txt file
19:21:25 <nooga> but if you really want...
19:21:40 <kipple> some browsers (like mine) doesn't wrap lines in txt files :(
19:28:33 <nooga> nooga.kewlnet.int.pl/oo.html
19:28:37 <nooga> http://nooga.kewlnet.int.pl/oo.html
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20:09:25 <Wildhalcyon> Haha! my internet not only works, it works WELL!
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20:17:24 <jix> i'm stupid
20:17:35 <jix> i'm typing 5 lines of irc msgs into my c source
20:24:04 <jix> i'm working on a ultimate compressor
20:25:57 <jix> a rangecoder with a super-intielligent (stupid) model
20:33:43 <jix> in a threadsafe flexible library
20:33:48 <jix> and no one cares :(
20:38:35 <jix> there is no irc channel about compression
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20:39:09 <jix> 21:09:04<Wildhalcyon>Haha! my internet not only works, it works WELL! << really?
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21:45:35 <twobitsprite> would a command to jump to the beginning of a program be touring complete?
22:02:41 <lindi-> twobitsprite: how can a command be turing complete or not?
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22:19:52 <Wildhalcyon> I think Transcipt needs some method of manipulating input strings
22:24:52 <kipple> agreed. there's not much string manipulation that can be done
22:26:08 <kipple> another suggestion for the 15th Glypho op: output top value as ASCII
22:27:00 <kipple> or pop value, convert to ASCII, then push again
22:31:44 <kipple> extremely useful in any case :)
22:32:10 <Wildhalcyon> Im thinking of just keeping it a "free-for-all" implementation-dependent instruction
22:32:57 <kipple> an Undefined behavior instruction ;)
22:33:22 <GregorR-L> But then what happens when the proprietary implementation from Microsoft has a useful command and everybody gloms onto it?
22:33:43 <kipple> then Wildhalcyen gets stinkin' rich
22:33:49 <kipple> wouldn't want that to happen
22:34:38 <Wildhalcyon> hmm... kipple, I value your input, but not this time!
22:35:01 <GregorR-L> Micro$oft would get stinkin' richer.
22:35:09 <GregorR-L> And Wildhalcyon would get stinkin' credit but no $$$ :-P
22:35:53 <GregorR-L> But it's street cred associated with Microsoft.
22:36:09 <GregorR-L> That's like the street cred from being a Visual Basic guru :-P
22:36:54 * kipple writes C# and a bit of VB for a living....
22:37:23 * GregorR-L writes PHP and a bit of C for a living!
22:37:53 <kipple> VB sucks, but C# is actually quite nice (except for the microsoft issue)
22:38:55 <Wildhalcyon> microsoft is an insult to small, plyable objects
22:40:06 * kipple is a java fan and C# is pretty close
22:40:22 <Wildhalcyon> I had a great one-liner about the "made easy" programming series and somebody's mom, but it didn't pan out.
22:40:53 * Wildhalcyon is *not* a java fan, but respects the need to develop a platform independent programming language
22:40:59 <GregorR-L> Wildhalcyon was working on it in his joke lab in the basement, but a lab accident caused an explosion that killed ... his MOM AHAHAHAHAHA
22:41:51 <kipple> he said *somebody's mom*, not his. the question is: what was she doing in his basement?
22:42:10 <GregorR-L> Wildhalcyon: There are plenty of platform independent programming languages ... just most of them compile to platform specific machine code.
22:42:44 <Wildhalcyon> Sadly, Gregor assumes that I am rich enough to afford a basement, and am not, as reality would like to object, forced to keep his outdated computer in the livingroom, next to the television.
22:43:06 <kipple> java applets are very nice for the web, and the only competition there (that I'm aware of) is Flash...
22:43:41 <Wildhalcyon> applets could easily be superceded by Gammaplex applets imo
22:44:42 <GregorR-L> Wildhalcyon: Java sports a platform independent virtual machine, that's what.
22:44:52 <Wildhalcyon> kipple: simply port every known applet everywhere into esoteric Gammaplex, then write a gammaplex applet extension for every version of every popular web browser
22:45:07 <GregorR-L> If somebody made a virtual platform that one could compile C to, then made VMs for major platforms, it would work just as well.
22:45:18 <GregorR-L> (Except that Java is made to be especially suited for a VM)
22:45:36 <Wildhalcyon> I understand that much, I just think its too clunky.
22:46:28 <Wildhalcyon> When I bought visual studio my freshman year of college, it came with a giant poster indentifying all the classes and their inheritance characteristics. Yuck.
22:48:43 <Wildhalcyon> I think it needs improvements, but its got a nice foundation
22:50:17 <kipple> one of the nice things about the Java VM (or microsofts CLR for that matter) is that they're not bound to a specific language. there are several compilers for other langs to java bytecode
22:57:07 <kipple> a multiple esolang to java byte code compiler would be cool
22:58:09 <Wildhalcyon> glypho is easy. Most tarpits are relatively easy to put into higher-level languages
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00:40:12 <ihope> How's the, uh, stuff going?
00:40:22 <ihope> Whatever you happen to be doing?
00:41:01 <ihope> Okay. Now just what are you doing? :-)
00:41:48 <ihope> What language? Point-black range?
00:43:40 <kipple> C# (don't understand the point-blank thingy)
00:44:06 <ihope> I'm theorizing another language based on points "
00:44:25 <ihope> Points "." and blanks " " inside ranges "[]"
00:47:26 <kipple> are those the only symbols?
00:47:36 <twobitsprite> sounds interesting... are ranges like b/f's loops?
00:48:22 <ihope> Uh. Yes and yes :-)
00:48:52 <ihope> I think points will be output and blanks will be nops.
00:49:39 <Wildhalcyon> Im still working on retooling glypho, and my fungeoid
00:49:45 <ihope> Of course, it would require some specialized EsoAPI :-)
00:50:16 <ihope> Ah yes. Glypho :-)
00:50:31 <ihope> What's under the current cell.
00:50:51 <ihope> That'd be zero normally, so obviously outputting zero must do something fun.
00:51:35 <ihope> ...Such as moving between cells or changing the current one.
00:52:07 <kipple> no need to clutter the spec with such details. leave it to the implementation
00:52:35 <twobitsprite> "this character does _something_ and that other character does _something else_"...?
00:52:47 <Wildhalcyon> ah, yes. "instruction characteristics left as an exercise to the reader"
00:53:19 <ihope> Just like Easy's I/O "base" instructions.
00:53:34 <kipple> "the implementation is free to interpret the instruction in whatever way it feels like, provided Turing completeness is achieved"
00:54:03 <ihope> X: Makes the language Turing-complete.
00:54:12 <Wildhalcyon> Glypho's i/o does the same thing - in fact, most languages I've devised do. I don't see any point in restricting the output characteristics of a low-level interpreted language.
00:54:37 <ihope> Hmm. Maybe I'll actually read the specs :-)
00:55:03 <Wildhalcyon> Wait, what language are you talking about reading?
00:55:13 <Wildhalcyon> Glypho's spec is abysmally and humiliatingly incomplete
00:55:28 <Wildhalcyon> and the "r" instruction is going to be turned into something else, more likely
00:55:32 <ihope> But surely it's more than the Esolang article!
00:56:05 <ihope> Okay. I'll "afk" until I can figure out how to do the "away" status this on this IRC client.
00:56:07 <Wildhalcyon> It is ihope, I didnt want to place the ENTIRE spec in the wiki article. There's too much fluff
00:56:10 <kipple> the spec isn't bad. it's contains all you need to implement it
00:56:38 <Wildhalcyon> kipple" especially since anything NOT mentioned in the spec is free for otheres to do as they please.
00:57:28 <Wildhalcyon> I can't type well tonight.. keyboard's in a funky position today.
00:58:38 <kipple> how about using the r instruction for self-modification?
00:59:38 <Wildhalcyon> except Ive tried making pie before. Fairly complex.. :-(
01:00:00 <ihope> Seeing that picture of fish statues spitting water out of their mouths made me suddenly thirsty...
01:02:48 <ihope> So... how do PC's communicate with their own northbridges?
01:03:45 <Wildhalcyon> hehe.. Im just kidding, I really have no clue
01:04:12 <Wildhalcyon> but it sounded good. Especially if I added cool acronyms like NMC and the NMCC - northbridge messaging complex code
01:04:42 <ihope> Okay. Just where does a power supply supply the power, then?
01:05:23 <Wildhalcyon> NOT through the NMC, because its strictly for communication purposes
01:06:23 <ihope> Maybe the southbridge is actually where the CPU is attached, and the northbridge is just put in to throw us off?
01:07:14 <Wildhalcyon> hmm.. you're saying that computer design teams ADD complexity as a means of preventing reverse engineering?
01:07:35 <ihope> And that's why the firmware is written in Malbolge!
01:07:42 <Wildhalcyon> I wonder if I could do the same thing with funge code...
01:08:30 <kipple> hmm. I see a way to exploit the GPL... you could compile all your code to brainfuck before releasing the source... ;)
01:08:59 <ihope> It says the source code must be "preferable" for modification.
01:09:31 <ihope> Of course, one can "prefer" it to machine code...
01:10:31 <kipple> well, if didn't want other people to use the code, I'd definately prefer brainfuck to C
01:12:21 <ihope> But... if you don't want other to use it, why GPL it at all?
01:12:25 <Wildhalcyon> Hmmm. I think you'd have to have a REALLY sophisticated BF streamliner
01:12:34 <ihope> Ah right. Bundling.
01:13:33 <ihope> I'd like to be able to just compile C into Brainfuck...
01:13:49 <Wildhalcyon> Well, yeah, I guess that would be pretty impressive
01:14:00 <ihope> Hah. Yes indeed...
01:14:41 <Wildhalcyon> You'd still have to do some streamlining - getting all the C variables close to one another to minimize BF "random access"
01:14:41 <ihope> Well, the parental units (I mean mother and father, of course) want Brainfuck to be called something else ;-)
01:15:04 <ihope> Yep. That's a nice problem with it.
01:15:15 <ihope> Of course, Brainfuck *is* a problem, no?
01:17:25 * Wildhalcyon thinks the doom movie is going to be ridiculously pathetic. 12-year-olds will eat it up, and maybe some fratboys, but even fans of the video game series will think that the movie is a pathetic hollywood cash-in
01:18:37 <ihope> ...but in a good way
01:19:10 <Wildhalcyon> Well, to offset that clause, let me say that no matter what, the doom movie cannot be any worse than Episode I
01:19:38 * kipple is not sure about that
01:20:27 <ihope> It will not be worse than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick... maybe.
01:21:19 <Wildhalcyon> pencil? Bring it on. Hot poker covered in red-hot thorns? flip a coin!
01:21:21 <ihope> Whether it's a stick of butter or a memory stick...
01:21:59 <Wildhalcyon> I argue that sticks of butter AND memory sticks are not sharp.
01:23:05 <Wildhalcyon> The upcoming Doom movie will be roughly as bad as poking yourself in the eye with an old CPU
01:23:39 <ihope> I won't watch it then ;-)
01:24:08 <Wildhalcyon> Well, of course not, your eye is going to take a while to repair from that incident involving the old CPU
01:26:21 <Wildhalcyon> Anyhow, back ontop something of a topic: I've been thinking of developing a TRANSCRIPT decendent
01:28:01 * kipple thinks that is a good idea
01:28:15 <Wildhalcyon> Im trying to figure out how to add functions by moving to different rooms
01:30:28 <Wildhalcyon> The problem is that moving to different rooms.. its a temporal action, it wouldn't be as easy to fit it into the "transcript of an IF game" scenario
01:31:51 <Wildhalcyon> I think Ive got some ways to implement it, but I'll have to think on it
01:32:07 <ihope> I'd like the "X" command in Transcript to be changed to "TALK TO".
01:32:32 <ihope> Erm wait... never mind.
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03:31:09 <Wildhalcyon> is there a bf implementation for palm pilots?
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04:00:59 <kipple> I made one for my cell phone, but it didn't work :(
04:01:24 <kipple> worked in the emulator, so it was difficult to debug
04:03:42 <Wildhalcyon> It'd be sweet to have portable executable bf code
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06:34:09 <GregorR> (Hmm, is there supposed to be a ´ there ...?)
06:34:27 <nooga> i see only some werid signs :>
06:35:07 <GregorR> So what's the latest esoteric news in your corner of the universe?
06:35:37 <nooga> haha, nothing special...
06:35:51 <nooga> im thinkin about my new language called o-o
06:35:59 <GregorR> Yes, I saw the web page on that.
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12:53:39 <Keymaker> he used to be here all the time..
13:03:20 <pgimeno> 20050815T114349 <-- fizzie has quit ("Siirretaanpa sahkojohtoa, maalaavat muuten yli sen.")
13:07:16 <Keymaker> "let us move the electric cabel, otherwise they will paint over it"
13:08:08 * jix is still coding c
13:08:54 <jix> there a three ways in c to write "{" (without ...) : "{" "<%" "??<"
13:09:00 <jix> cool for obfuscating code
13:09:05 <jix> you can mix them too
13:09:14 <jix> <% ??> is equivalent to { }
13:09:38 <jix> the ??* codes can be used in quotes too because they are converted before the code gets parsed
13:10:18 <jix> they where introduced for non ascii machines (afaik)
13:12:00 <jix> i'm still writing my ultra cool compression algorithm
13:12:18 <Aardwolf> I know a good compression algorithm:
13:12:28 <kipple> what are you compressing? text? images? bf-code?
13:12:34 <jix> sudo rm -rf /
13:12:36 <jix> kipple: anything
13:12:48 <jix> it's ultra cool
13:12:49 <Aardwolf> take all the 0's and 1's of the file, and then store them in a new order: first all the 0's, then all the 1's. Then zip this. Ultra good compression.
13:13:13 <jix> Aardwolf: uhrm.. and a decompression too (lossless)
13:13:17 <jix> you can't unsort
13:13:43 <jix> but bzip2 uses a approach that is a bit like "sorting the file"
13:14:18 <Aardwolf> k it was sort of a joke, didn't invent it myself tho
13:14:36 <jix> Aardwolf: yeah i know.. but the funny thing is bzip2 sorts the file
13:15:22 <jix> but not the bytes by its own value but by the value of all bytes infront of it (with looping back to the byte)
13:15:45 <jix> it's a transformation called BWT (Burrow-Wheeler transformation)
13:15:54 <jix> in most cases it is
13:16:12 <jix> thats why source.tar.bz2 is smaller than source.tgz
13:18:00 <Aardwolf> what's like the maximul accelaration a human body can survive?
13:18:26 <jix> it's slower than the speed of light
13:18:42 <jix> oh accelaration not speed
13:18:56 <jix> i just saw that...
13:19:35 <jix> its less than speed_of_light/s ;)
13:19:45 <kipple> I don't think anybody know if a human can survive light speed... (if that is possible at all)
13:19:54 <jix> kipple: impossible
13:20:11 <Aardwolf> I'm making a space game and need a realistic value for the accelaration of the spaceships
13:20:25 <jix> Aardwolf: space game AND realistic ?!
13:20:27 <kipple> jix: according to current theoretical physics, yes (but such things has changed in the past)
13:20:55 <jix> kipple: i'm not that into physics
13:21:05 <pgimeno> uh, Frontier uses 25g witout problems even if I think that's unrealistic
13:21:08 <Aardwolf> as realistic as possible without being too boring ;)
13:21:23 <pgimeno> anyway there are "workarounds"
13:21:32 <Aardwolf> but um currently I try it with 1000g and going to the moon is still taking way too long :(
13:22:13 <kipple> speeding up time instead might be better (unless it's multiplayer)
13:22:31 <jix> Aardwolf: do a kickstart and start with blabla km/h and than use 1000g
13:22:56 <Keymaker> aardwolf: sounds interesting.. what kind of game?
13:23:00 <pgimeno> when pushed by a flat, rigid surface the bones would break at much less acceleration
13:23:57 <pgimeno> yeah kipple, time speedup is the approach used by Frontier and the rest of the "family"
13:24:06 <Aardwolf> keymaker: currently I plan it to be somewhat like Frontier: Elite, but you'll also be able to walk around in your spaceship and walk around on planets
13:24:06 <kipple> wikipedia: "modern pilots can typically handle 9 g (90 m/s)"
13:24:32 <pgimeno> I've got a basic Frontier-like 3D engine on my webpage with time acceleration
13:24:35 <Keymaker> (btw, never seen or played frontier: elite)
13:24:35 <Aardwolf> but nothing fancy though, no high-poly things or shiney effects
13:24:47 <Keymaker> i'd like to be able to do 3d stuff
13:24:49 <jix> Aardwolf: :(
13:25:00 <jix> i want cool pixel shader effects!
13:25:08 <jix> and smoothed surfaces
13:25:21 <Aardwolf> in frontier: elite you basically have to fly from star system to star system to trade goods and get more money for better ships and weapons to fight pirates
13:25:29 <kipple> so what are you coding it in? Deltaplex?
13:25:43 <Keymaker> i was just thinking deltaplex..
13:25:43 <Aardwolf> lol no, but I'm using the same engine as the one for deltaplex :)
13:26:24 <Aardwolf> btw I rarely finish a project so I hope I'll finish this one :)
13:27:11 <jix> my start finish ratio is 100/1
13:27:36 <Aardwolf> btw currently there's only an earth and a moon and both look green
13:27:44 <pgimeno> for the record, there's a SF novel which suggest placing a mini black hole in the front of the ship to counter the effect of acceleration over the pilot
13:28:18 <Aardwolf> but how to move the black hole?
13:28:29 <Keymaker> (talking about physics, i should be reading them at the moment.. stupid exam..)
13:28:30 <Aardwolf> I mean it's so heavy that it would require massive amounts of energy to move :)
13:28:30 <jix> Aardwolf: pull it or push it
13:29:01 <jix> place another black hole in front of it and let it pull the first one
13:29:22 <Keymaker> yeah, they are so easy to move around :)
13:30:39 <Aardwolf> I wonder if it is theoretically possible to make a lightweight gravity generator
13:34:51 <Aardwolf> hmm what's the acceleration of a plane when it takes off?
13:37:13 <Keymaker> i hate physics, i rather like philosophy that says that acceleration doesn't exist
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13:52:48 <jix> moin Wildhalcyon
13:54:20 <Wildhalcyon> Can't afford the new pda you've been dreaming of?
13:54:28 <jix> my compression code is still unfinished and i'm still feeling ill
13:54:36 <jix> and i could buy 2 of the pdas
13:55:13 <jix> but i don't want to spend the money on them because i want to buy a new computer
13:55:15 <Wildhalcyon> call in sick to work and spend the time working on your compression algorithm
13:55:39 <jix> i don't work
13:55:41 <Wildhalcyon> what about a tablet PC jix? Its a half-way point
13:55:57 <jix> i have to go to school
13:56:48 <Wildhalcyon> stupid gmail keeps telling me the document contains no data, when it *clearly* does. Sometimes the internet bites
13:58:06 <Wildhalcyon> I think Im going to develop my transcript derivative to be interactive, like Forth
13:58:46 <jix> make it interative like irb
13:58:47 <Wildhalcyon> You spy a cup that you have never seen before.
13:58:52 <jix> (interactive ruby interpreter)
14:00:05 <Wildhalcyon> see? It could be lots of fun - you think.. HEY, Im in an Interactive Fiction game!.. then it turns out that you're not, you're really programming
14:00:31 <jix> TELL JOHN TO USE THE CUP (function call)
14:00:42 <jix> john has no idea how to use the cup (undefined function)
14:01:07 <Wildhalcyon> in order to quit, you'll have to say "THERE IS A DARK LORD OF EVIL" followed by "DEFEAT THE DARK LORD OF EVIL"
14:01:17 <jix> you can use the cup to drink (add to the cup function a call to the function drink)
14:01:29 <jix> you can use the cup to print "hello, world!" ...
14:01:48 <Wildhalcyon> how would I code the "drink" function though?
14:02:02 <jix> if you want to drink you have to....
14:02:07 <Wildhalcyon> You'd really have to have outside function definitions, not like Forth's define feature
14:02:26 <jix> casting function pointers in c is fun!
14:02:45 <Wildhalcyon> I like function pointers, except C bastardizes them into something horrific.
14:02:52 <jix> rv.read_data = (size_t(*)(void*, size_t, size_t, void*))fread;
14:03:29 <jix> that's a stupid syntax
14:04:27 <jix> haha this car got hacked: http://dimka.ee/foo/audiA8.html
14:05:24 <Wildhalcyon> Sometimes OOP goes horribly wrong. I may have to invent my own OOP language
14:05:35 <jix> c is not oop
14:05:38 <kipple> jix: a nice example of brute force hacking!
14:05:53 <Wildhalcyon> No Jix, but C++ claims to be (still questionable)
14:05:53 <jix> ruby is simple
14:06:06 <jix> c++ object-ori... wtf?
14:07:26 * Keymaker thinks if he should give away information about his secret brainfuck project, or just some annoying pieces of information to and keep it secret
14:07:51 <Wildhalcyon> Keymaker, Im still in doubt about its existence
14:08:09 <Wildhalcyon> but it can't be cooler than interactive TRANSCRIPT
14:08:24 <Wildhalcyon> but its close to existing, so thats a plus
14:08:25 <Keymaker> but by the way, this new project is what i just started few mins ago
14:08:35 <Keymaker> it's not the one i mentioned long ago
14:08:43 <Wildhalcyon> keymaker: I start a new project ~ every 30 minutes
14:08:46 <jix> tell us about it
14:09:03 <jix> Wildhalcyon: hah i start a new one every 29.57464 minutes
14:09:07 <Keymaker> (the one wh doesn't believe exists is under work as well)
14:09:46 <Wildhalcyon> and the problem is.. I don't DROP any of them. I'm still working on my colorized OO funge varient, my glypho interpreter, interactive transcript, slightly-3D SNUSP, etc...
14:10:05 <Keymaker> i start and drop.. but i have couple of under work
14:10:22 <jix> Keymaker: same here
14:10:29 <Wildhalcyon> Im starting to wonder if I'll ever develop my funge-language roguelike
14:11:33 * Wildhalcyon wonders how much the pickaxes in the audi cost per piece. Thats some sweet vengance - someone must have forked over the dough
14:12:43 <jix> LOL i just read pickaxe and thought you're talking about ruby
14:13:09 <jix> because the book "Programming Ruby" from pragprog has the nickname pickaxe because it has a pickaxe on the cover
14:14:39 <Wildhalcyon> Alright you crazy programmers, I need to go get ready for my midterm (another one, yay!)
14:15:05 <jix> a terminal emulator?
14:15:06 <Wildhalcyon> yeah. Its a test, in the middle of the term.
14:15:08 <jix> like xterm
14:15:23 * jix looks up term
14:15:49 <{^Raven^}> the authentication process to login to a midterm is a b*tch
14:16:20 <Wildhalcyon> no kidding Raven. I need my student ID card, a pencil with a decent eraser, and for this class a non-programmable calculator
14:17:02 <jix> in school math test we are allowed to use graphical+programmable calculators
14:17:32 <jix> but at the "Mathe Olympiade"(math olympics) we may only use simple calculators
14:19:00 <jix> maybe because our math teacher doesn't know that we know how to use the programmable calculators "efficient"
14:19:11 <Wildhalcyon> Anyhow, I'll be back later on, with some fresh ideas on how to obfuscate already troublesome concepts
14:19:20 <jix> mathe olympiade is cool
14:20:22 * {^Raven^} thought up two new esolangs last night
14:20:55 <jix> {^Raven^}: cool
14:21:36 <Keymaker> dream or didn't you get to sleep?
14:24:05 <Keymaker> in better english: "did you invent them in a dream or didn't you get any sleep and invented them on that time?"
14:24:30 <{^Raven^}> sleep deprivation probably. last night == 6am
14:25:22 <{^Raven^}> i've never implemented an esolang before so this will be fun
14:26:19 <jix> than don't tell me enough about it that i'm able to implement it
14:26:34 <jix> i'm known for implementing things just because someone talked about it;)
14:26:54 <{^Raven^}> heh, i'm not sure i know enough about them yet
14:28:36 <Wildhalcyon> hahaha, unfortunately for jix he implemented glypho before it was ready
14:35:25 <Keymaker> aargh.. i really need to go reading now.. bbl
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14:39:00 <{^Raven^}> hmmm, one of these languages is possibly going to be *very* difficult to write programs for
14:39:11 * {^Raven^} forgets if that is a good thing or not
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14:45:24 <jix> my c macros are growing too fast
14:45:50 <Wildhalcyon> morning (or whatever time it is for you) Nooga
14:46:02 <jix> 17 line macros...
14:46:14 <nooga> morning Wildhalcyon :>
14:46:19 <jix> moin nooga
14:47:00 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: first program... cat is '-12318683s6x5e'
14:47:06 <jix> they do special buffered fast byte and bit IO
14:49:01 <jix> but i can't use inline functions there
14:52:51 <jix> my lib is written in portable 32bit c99 and should run on every >= 32bit machine and is able to handle any filesize
14:55:49 <jix> i think the api is simple and flexible
14:56:10 <jix> you can use it for file => file mem => file mem => mem ....
14:58:05 <{^Raven^}> jix: comp.lang.c comes to mind (if you dare)
14:59:18 <jix> {^Raven^}: hm?
15:01:19 <{^Raven^}> jix: usenet group where you can ask questions about the standard C language
15:01:30 <jix> i have no questions
15:03:18 <jix> maybe i ask an operator to free the channel #comression ( Contact: TheStar, last seen: 2 years 5 weeks 2 days (6h 11m 32s) ago) only chenserv and me in there
15:06:41 <Wildhalcyon> unfortunately, glypho is what I consider anti-compression. It takes more information to encode glypho than it actually contains (at least, in the 4 symbol case.. I think its worse as the string length increases)
15:07:26 <jix> no.. with string length 1 it needs 1 byte for.. uhm 1 symbol
15:07:32 <jix> best cas is length 2
15:07:41 <jix> 2 bytes for 2 symbols
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15:08:41 <Wildhalcyon> Im comparing the number of possible glypho symbols v. the number of possible normal symbols.
15:09:19 <Wildhalcyon> with a 4-symbol 4-length alphabet, glypho can encode 15 unique symbols, while "conventional" encoding can encode 4^4 = 256
15:10:52 <Wildhalcyon> with a 2-symbol 2-length alphabet, you're looking at 2 glypho v. 2^2 = 4 conventional
15:12:18 <Wildhalcyon> "loss" associated with the english alphabet - 15 v. 26^4
15:14:03 <Wildhalcyon> Ah well, its still cool ;-) And it might be uber-compressible with the short alphabet.
15:29:56 <jix> it's über not uber
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15:40:02 <jix> wb Wildhalcyon
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16:12:05 <nooga> i think taht SQL should be classified as esolang too
16:13:30 <nooga> C is quite clear, SQL is not
16:13:48 <jix> quite clear?
16:13:48 <jix> rv.read_data = (size_t(*)(void*, size_t, size_t, void*))fread;
16:14:28 <nooga> some sort of cast?
16:15:03 <jix> yes that's casting of function pointers... and that's ugly
16:15:25 <Wildhalcyon> A lot of languages have ugly constructs though. Perl is the worst imo
16:15:37 <nooga> then i'll maybe go back to my PHP app...
16:16:38 <jix> and a lot of languages fore one to use them
16:16:52 <nooga> hah, i love perl for those werid constructs
16:17:25 <jix> nooga: your host is a perl script ;)
16:17:31 <jix> ...rev.inter-c.pl
16:17:55 <nooga> like almost every host here, in Poland :>
16:18:08 <nooga> we've got .pl domain :>
16:18:18 <nooga> perlish country huh? :>
16:18:41 <jix> Wildhalcyon is away
16:19:09 <Wildhalcyon> Im about to leave anyways, soon as I can find my shoes..
16:19:13 <jix> whois says so....
16:20:41 <nooga> Wildhalcyon: From perl i like that: my $foo = shift || 10;
16:20:59 <nooga> and many more things :>
16:21:18 <jix> ruby: foo = (ARGV.shift || 10).to_i
16:21:37 <jix> if you talk about argv
16:21:44 <jix> if you talk about functino arguments
16:21:56 <jix> def bla (foo = 10) ...
16:23:45 <jix> oh you could write def bla foo = 10 (without ( and ) )
16:25:24 <jix> my compressor is faster if a file has more 1 bits than 0 bits ^^
16:26:13 <jix> thats one addition, one subtraction and one multiplication less per bit
16:27:32 <nooga> i never care about execution time :>
16:27:58 <jix> you don't care if your computer needs 20h to start up?
16:28:13 <nooga> my programs always run fast
16:28:15 <jix> or if you need 20h to compress a 1mb file
16:28:44 <jix> they run fast even if you don't care about it?
16:29:14 <jix> but not if you write a complex compressor
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17:33:49 <Keymaker> fsck.. i slept all the time and didn't read at all..
17:34:00 <Keymaker> well, let's hope the brain works best in panic :)
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18:40:36 <kipple> anyone seen the new dr. Who show?
18:52:41 <kipple> starts here in Norway today. just wondering if it's any good
18:53:28 <Keymaker> but i guess the only way is to "see it for yourself"
18:53:45 <kipple> I have some vague memories from my childhood of the old series. I really liked it then, not that that need matter at all
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19:06:56 <{^Raven^}> kipple: the new series is *really* good
19:08:55 <GregorR> It's a good thing I have a business trip to Norway every week :-P
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19:28:43 <Wildhalcyon> Gregor, you appear to have stabbed yourself again
19:29:24 <Wildhalcyon> Wait, you just faded away!.. Did you just come back from the grave to re-utter your last lines and pass away once again?
19:29:42 <GregorR> I should have said "is fading away'
19:31:24 <Wildhalcyon> I was going to have an exciting talk about a Forth-TRANSCRIPT varient Im working on
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20:02:03 <kipple> Raven: just watched it. Can't say I was impressed :(
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21:47:21 <Keymaker> i'm working with my newest project at the moment..
21:48:20 <Keymaker> this project will take a lot time
21:48:55 <Keymaker> luckily the next term in school is the next i have ever had, only 15 hours school a week
21:49:22 <Keymaker> :) yeah, i've waited this for a long time..
21:50:56 <Wildhalcyon> Im working on turing interactive TRANSCRIPT syntax such as "if all lights are red then the cup contains water" into meaningful programming syntax. Not to mention "There are lots of lights"
21:52:08 <Keymaker> probably quite difficult job, i assume..
21:52:32 <Wildhalcyon> Well, thinking it all up and writing it down is EASY. It's when I actually move towards writing an implementation that will be the challenge
21:54:40 <Wildhalcyon> Esolang Design Goal: develop an esolang that will be difficult for Jix to implement.
21:55:24 <Wildhalcyon> The only thing I can think of is using a foreign language. He's amazingly good at what he does
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21:57:24 <Wildhalcyon> Im working on the mechanics for the word "lots" right now. It roughly means "uncountable" - so if you say "There are lots of lights" there are more than enough for any task you could possibly use them for. Think of "lots" as aleph-null
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22:33:47 <{^Raven^}> Wildhalcyon: The one I'm working on should be difficult for jix to implement
22:34:38 <{^Raven^}> cat (beta) is 63s73x5 or 806s30x5 or ...
22:35:34 <Wildhalcyon> The letters with the numbers with the confusion
22:37:51 <{^Raven^}> echo chars 0 to 255 to output is 8357s19x6
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00:37:56 <twobitsp1ite> was it fun being on the other side of the abyss?
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03:17:05 <GregorR> twobitsp1ite: You know what was weird on the other side of the abyss?
03:17:21 <GregorR> It still showed everybody in the online list.
03:17:29 <GregorR> It showed logout messages ... but still showed them as in the channel.
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03:31:17 <GregorR> /msg HotMama01 Hey baby, wanna cyber?
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04:41:27 <GregorR> Arrogant: How goes your ORK project? :-P
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05:33:55 <calamari> yep! check this out http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=scienceNews&storyID=2005-09-27T234411Z_01_DIT783884_RTRUKOC_0_US-SQUID.xml
05:34:15 <GregorR> "Brainfuck Named Most Influential Language Ever"
05:35:14 <calamari> that was my cousin Ted.. too bad for him, lost a tentacle
05:36:06 <calamari> actually it kinda makes me sick to think that it was in enough pain to rip its own arm off..
05:36:29 <GregorR> We don't know anything about the giant squid, for all we know that's normal.
05:37:14 <calamari> well, it was caught for over 4 hours
05:37:21 <calamari> that article doesn't talk about that much
05:37:33 <calamari> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/27/science/27cnd-squid.html?hp&ex=1127880000&en=3fe80be6ccc23999&ei=5094&partner=homepage
05:40:46 <calamari> yeah, I had to register, now its up
05:42:20 <GregorR> Have you played Battle for Wesnoth?
05:47:54 <GregorR> sekhmet: Are you aware that sekhmet is a possible transliteration of "grey haired woman" from ancient egyptian?
05:48:03 <GregorR> calamari: No, it's a strategy game.
05:48:18 <GregorR> IDIA is at sort of a stalled state while I get back into the groove of school :-P
05:49:40 <GregorR> sekhmet: Actually, it could also (as seker met with the weak r removed) be The Penis of Soker (a god)
05:56:39 <calamari> the last strategy board game I played was Panzer Blitz.. spend a bunch of time learning how to play, but then when actually playing, the game wasn't any fun
06:03:01 <GregorR> Looking through the logs, I don't actually have any chance of sekhmet responding, do I :P
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15:00:35 <sekhmet> GregorR: Oh, I don't know, I can be coerced into responding. :)
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19:23:15 <Keymaker> ha! the chapter of spare time has begun!
19:26:06 <kipple> time to reveal your secret projects then? ;)
19:26:55 <Keymaker> actually, now when i have spare time i feel like running another brainfuck competition
19:27:11 <Keymaker> but first should make up some idea..
19:32:11 <Keymaker> ..also, now when having time, the laziness has hit me..
19:32:24 <Keymaker> you know, you have time but you're unable to do anything?
19:38:55 <Keymaker> kipple, do you have any good links? i have nothing interesting to read..
19:39:40 <kipple> links to what? anything in particular?
19:40:18 <Keymaker> preferably something interesting
19:40:24 <kipple> www.esolangs.org/wiki ;)
19:43:06 <kipple> can't think of anything. sorry
19:56:58 <Keymaker> aha, time to go to wikiquote..
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21:34:52 <jix> Keymaker: BF competition sounds cool
21:35:16 <Keymaker> i'm about to start writing rules and stuff
21:36:23 <jix> but i have to go to bed now.. french test tomorrow
21:37:17 <jix> nah... french is a difficult language
21:38:20 <jix> i like french too... as long as >>I<< don't have to speak it
21:38:40 <Keymaker> the speaking part is often annoying, at least for me
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21:40:01 <Keymaker> wow. 99bob.net has 807 langs already..
21:54:11 <Keymaker> anythin' interestin' goin' on?
21:55:28 <GregorR> I'm trying to find a MingW/Windows developer to help me get DirectNet's Gaim plugin working on Windoze, and with that I'll release DirectNet 1.0.0!
21:56:01 <GregorR> And I'm trying to get Battle for Wesnoth to accept my OBLISK package as the official (download page) GNU/Linux package.
21:56:41 <GregorR> And actually, I'm pretty sure that DirectNet's Gaim plugin should already work on Windows, but don't have the system to test it on :P
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22:29:44 <GregorR> I just severely broke DirectNet 8-D
22:35:22 <GregorR> It wasn't broken, my GPG configuration was broken :P
22:49:30 <Keymaker> what i do to represent '/' in html
22:49:39 <Keymaker> or do i need something before it?
22:54:12 <GregorR> Basically you only have to worry about <, > and &
23:41:15 <Keymaker> the new brainfuck competition starts to look good..
23:51:01 <Keymaker> (the info/rules file i'm writing, i mean)
23:52:10 <Keymaker> hmmm, would i dare to tell yet?
23:52:54 <Keymaker> i'll just give a few hints.. it has something to do with two-byte integers, stack etc.. ;)
23:53:46 <Keymaker> i hope i can start the competition tomorrow.. but you all know my laziness..
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23:58:32 <kipple> hopefully more will participate this time...
23:59:36 <Keymaker> it will be interesting competition i hope
00:00:20 <Keymaker> to note, all use of brainfuck code generators such as bf-basic is strictly forbidden
00:00:48 <kipple> that's hard to prove though
00:01:24 <Keymaker> well, one can spot the generated code quite well
00:02:55 <Keymaker> to get the winning code one needs to use brains and do tweakin' no generator can even think of
00:03:23 <Keymaker> and to note, since this is cool community nobody would use code generators anyways ;)
00:04:05 <kipple> Wow! ORK has skyrocketed on the 99bob rating list, and is now #6 :D
00:09:45 <kipple> if ORK hadn't been so excessively verbose when it comes to manipulating variables it could almost be used as a normal language :)
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00:11:28 <kipple> here's a nice contest idea for you: write an ORK implementaion in BF ;)
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00:12:44 <Keymaker> that could be a *bit* difficult
00:14:17 <Keymaker> but i assume this contest will be hard enough for most of people, including me. i have no idea yet how to code the stuff that's wanted in the comp..
00:15:14 <kipple> I'm sure it will be difficult enough :) the previous ones has been, at least for me (but I'm no good at BF programming)
00:15:45 <Keymaker> the first was rather easy, but the second was a bit harder
00:15:55 <Keymaker> i was very close getting my entry done
00:16:32 <Keymaker> these days i could easily finish it though..
00:17:11 <Keymaker> this third competition may be a bit harder than the second, not sure
00:17:33 <kipple> wasn't there like almost no entries last time?
00:17:58 <kipple> sure you want to make it even harder?
00:18:24 <Keymaker> i'm sure the last round's lack of entries was because most of the people were really busy
00:18:59 <Keymaker> believe me, the task wasn't that hard
00:19:12 <Keymaker> i got all the routines working but i couldn't make the stack work properly
00:19:39 <Keymaker> but when i saw the winning entry i realized that the stack would've been so very easy to implement by using one different method
00:19:51 <Keymaker> and if i had used that i would've got my solution working
00:25:21 <Keymaker> anyways, i think i'm going to bed. hopefully the competition is ready to be started 'later' today
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00:49:36 * {^Raven^} 's other computer just exploded (two working ones remaining)
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02:50:38 <kipple> haven't been able to work more on my bf-to-glypho compiler
03:03:39 <Wildhalcyon> Hmmm, bf-to-glypho would be easier than glypho-to-bf I think
03:09:02 <kipple> probably. but more importantly: bf-to-glypho would prove TC
03:13:46 <Wildhalcyon> yeah, it should work, and prove TC. Im fairly certain TC is provable, since it has random access, exact same looping as bf, and can produce an arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point
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04:19:23 <GregorR> The moon weighs 11,771,110,100,000,000,000,000 stones.
04:21:56 <GregorR> That would be a good BF project!
04:28:03 <GregorR> 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
04:28:04 <GregorR> 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
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15:02:55 <jix> moin everyone
15:05:43 <Wildhalcyon> Im not sure what Gregor was talkin' about... I got 1 oz = 2.8349 * 10^-5 metric tons
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15:39:18 <nooga> aaaa..tokigun..where are you?!
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16:44:31 <ihope> ...I'm working on Esos-hw version 1.0.
16:49:41 <ihope> It's pretty simple, and I'm almost done with it...
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17:59:38 <jix> Keymaker: anything new abut the bf comp?
18:00:15 <Keymaker> i hope to get it started later this night
18:01:15 <Keymaker> basically all i need to add is: judging & scoring and deadlines
18:01:24 <Keymaker> maybe some clearing and other small things
18:04:20 <jix> and the main thing is...?
18:06:59 <jix> 19:01:07<Keymaker>but the main thing is ready
18:07:16 <Keymaker> you'll see when the competition starts
18:07:31 * jix can't wait
18:07:51 <Keymaker> with that main thing i mean the competition task and instructions
18:08:31 <Keymaker> you're probably goin' to be in?
18:08:55 <jix> if i have enough time
18:09:12 <Keymaker> at least keep on eye the result(s)
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19:34:02 <Keymaker> now the only thing that is required is the dates
19:34:15 <Keymaker> (i mean dates for this competition time)
19:34:40 <Keymaker> [well, real dates are missing as well]
19:35:35 <Keymaker> the time could end 1st november
20:05:02 <Keymaker> the new brainfuck competition, Integer Brainfuck Competition, has started
20:05:04 <Keymaker> http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1360541&forum_id=201037
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20:28:30 <Keymaker> i just told that the new bf competition has begun!
20:33:08 <Keymaker> but the main thing are the two-byte integers
20:35:43 <GregorR-L> Well, I'll start writing in a bit, but will fail miserably *shrugs*
20:36:47 <Keymaker> i'd be interested how it would affect if info about this competition would be posted in slashdot. i mean, can they actually code or just talk crap x)
20:37:19 <GregorR-L> Slashdot = dumb. They can all just talk crap. Of this I am certain ;)
20:38:00 <Keymaker> better just to keep the info in esoteric programming circles
20:41:59 <GregorR-L> I can tell you one thing. The implementation I'll be using is EgoBF :)
20:43:25 <Keymaker> ok, as long as it can not generate brainfuck code
20:47:59 <jix> Keymaker: i wrote 2 byte int routines a long time ago
20:48:10 <jix> i can use them to port any 1 byte math routine to 2 byte ints
20:48:38 <jix> i wrote them for my bf checksum program (that i didn't complete)
20:48:59 <Keymaker> but please don't release them yet, so that nobody gets tips!
20:49:07 <jix> of course not
20:49:21 <jix> i want to WIN
20:49:46 <Keymaker> i just e-mailed dbc and laurent.. ;)
20:50:37 <jix> may we add instructions?
20:52:46 <Keymaker> at least not to your competition entries
20:54:16 <Keymaker> i'm sorry about that, but i think the 8 instructions are enough
20:54:44 <jix> uh r is difficult
20:55:51 <Keymaker> i'll start thinking about the integer stuff tomorrow. i have couple of ideas already, though.
20:57:30 <Keymaker> anyways, it's very good to hear you ang gregorr are going to give it a try
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21:09:57 <Keymaker> the Integer Brainfuck Competition has begun
21:10:00 <Keymaker> http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1360541&forum_id=201037
21:13:20 <Wildhalcyon> Is it just me, or is quicktime not the most annoying piece of software ever implemented?
21:14:07 <jix> quicktime is very old
21:15:05 <jix> apple tries to move all the features from the old and dirty and mac os pre x-ish quicktime to the new osx core video,audio and image
21:15:48 <jix> or do you talk about the quicktime player as user?
21:17:47 <Wildhalcyon> It screws up my file dependencies, even when I tell it NOT to
21:17:52 <jix> yeah quicktime player is crap
21:18:02 <jix> i thought you talked about the quicktime lib
21:18:22 <Wildhalcyon> its the only player that can play .mov files tho
21:19:44 <jix> video lan client
21:20:07 <jix> a video player that plays many formats
21:20:23 <jix> http://videolan.org/
21:21:01 <Keymaker> i can't remember where i heard about it, it's the best player i've used
21:21:35 <jix> windows media player is crap too
21:22:08 <Wildhalcyon> Im not a big fan of wmp either, but it generally does what I ask it to do, and doesnt install iTunes at the same time
21:23:06 <jix> of course on the windows platform apple bundles quicktime with itunes
21:23:20 <jix> mac os comes with quicktime and itunes
21:23:49 <jix> oh and are you sure windows media player does what you want? .. my firewall reports many unwanted connections
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21:26:36 <jix> (connections to M$ are unwanted)
21:28:41 <Wildhalcyon> As soon as I get the opportunity to afford a new comp, I'm heading towards linux. The way its setup right now though, it won't work :-(
21:29:18 <jix> i lost my old 16-bit BF routines.. working on new ones
21:30:36 <Keymaker> this competition will be quite exiting i think
21:36:29 <Keymaker> there's interesting looking interpreter in wikipedia brainfuck article, written in some "BBC Basic"
21:36:39 <Keymaker> it seems to be new addition there, haven't noticed it before
21:50:26 <jix> 16bit ADD done
21:54:37 <jix> 16bit SUB done
21:56:45 <jix> but i can't do 16bit MUL inplace
21:57:21 <jix> for r=a+1 and r=a-1 i only needed space for r and a for r=a+b and r=a-b i only needed space for a,b and r
21:58:08 <jix> just noticed another problem with the "simple" way
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